# CAE discussion.



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I did this same discussion a ways back for CL and I feel like I learned a ton. So now I'm moving on to CAE. Caprine Arthritis and Encephalitis.

People don't seem to be so super concerned about this one. I'm pretty sure one of the herds I looked at had rampant CAE. She never came out and admitted it but she told me that some people prefer to have milk from goats infected with CAE and that goats don't always some down with symptoms so CAE isn't all that bad.

This attitude is one I've run into more than once. CAE isn't all that bad. ok. Maybe not if one never gets symptomatic but it doesn't sound great. Especially not for the kid that gets then Encephalitis part of this. 

I'm doing research but I don't see this disease as being as misunderstood as CL seems to be. People seem to really understand CAE and in many cases accept it. 

Though, the more I read about it, the more I want to pull kids at birth to bottle feed. CAE can also be spread through blood but I don't usually hear of people separating their CAE positive goats from their negatives.

Do you guys have opinions? I'm really curious as to how people feel about this disease and why their practices in kidding and herding are the way they are. 

Like the CL discussion, this is meant to be informative and helpful and no judginess. All goat people helping goat people form their own practices.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

AmyBoogie said:


> She never came out and admitted it but she told me that some people prefer to have milk from goats infected with CAE and that goats don't always some down with symptoms so CAE isn't all that bad.


That doesn't even make any sense. Why would anyone "prefer" milk from a diseased goat? Doesn't matter to me if it "can't" be passed to humans.

I have my girls tested. I want my herd to be disease free. As far as I'm concerned, you never know when it will mutate and you be able to get it.

Plus, when they do have symptoms, they are in terrible pain. Why let a goat go through that.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ah another subject I can speak intelligently on  These are few and far between hehe. But really;

Some basic facts of CAE is that it is a retro virus, just like the HIV virus and effects goats much the same way. It compromises their immune systems to a much leaser degree though. A CAE positive animal can look totally healthy and never get clinical signs of the disease. The better their management, the more likely this is to happen. But also like HIV, once CAE goes clinical (AIDS equivalent), the goat will slowly go down hill and there is nothing or anything that can slow or prevent it. Most CAE positive does will go clinical and the average lifespan of a kid infected at birth is about 6 years before they are in bad enough condition that they warrant being put down. CAE is passed through milk to not just the infected does kids but any kid that might wanna take steal a few sucks as that doe has her head in the feeder. It is also passed through blood. Like when a positive doe and a negative doe are fighting and they both end up with bloody heads. Or when the victor does the blah blah blah tongue thing like a buck to show the loser she is the boss. Unlike HIV though, it is very very difficult for a doe to pass on CAE to a buck via breeding and vice versa. Unlike CL, CAE only lives a very short time outside of an infected animals body.

My experience with CAE on a commercial sized farm: As I have spoke of before about battling CL on Amy's CL post, I also did battle with CAE as well. And I can tell you that I would hands down rather have to deal with CAE then CL. CAE doesnt infect the ground, or hide in the lungs and can be coughed up, it doesnt live long outside of the positive animals body. There are no variables with CAE for the most part. So that makes it much easier to deal with. Here is how we dealt with it:

Positive animals (know via test results) were moved to a "positive" pen that was nearly 100 feet away from an clean animals. This was do to the CL. With CAE, you only need enough space between em to insure no contact. A 6 foot walk way for instance. Once move to this pen, they almost never get to come out except to get breed. Hoof trimmings and dewormings are done in their pen. Never had a buck come up positive even after years of breeding them to positive does. And this is pretty much their life. I believe the better food and management they get, the less likely the CAE is to go clinical.

Kidding: If you want to breed and kid out a positive doe, you are 95% likely to come away with CAE negative kids if done correctly. You have to be very vigilant and know how to tell when a doe is getting ready to kid. And when you are pretty sure the day is the day, you need to check often. You will want to either make a kidding pen or be in a cleaner part of the positive pen when the doe is ready. You will need towels and or tarps or blankets to put the kid(s) on when they come out. 
When the time comes you do not want to go in fishing for kids if you dont have to. Let the doe do as much of the work as possible. You do this in order to keep the bubble the kid is in, intact as long as possible. This is what protects them from the CAE virus that is in the moms blood. So if the bubble breaks/pops, you want to then help and try to hurry the birth along. Once you pull the kid out (do not let it touch the dirty ground) clean off the face as best you can. If you choose to swing the kid by the back legs to clear out fluid from the mouth, do so after you have wiped the face clean. Here we will allow the mom to clean the kid of birth fluids from the neck down. No licking on the face or umbilical cord. This actually help the moms body to get another kid into the birth canal and read to be born faster. A few minutes of this and you take the kid inside and wash the kid. I like to rinse the kid from the ears down until I get all the birth fluids and goo off before I use dawn dish soap to wash the kid. This way there isnt any floaters in the sink as I am washing. For above the hears I use a no tears shamepoo if for some reason the head is nasty. but most of the time just a rinse of the head is enough.
By doing it this way we have never had a kid come up positive out of a positive mom. BUT we did have a kid come up positive after her mom tried to have two kids at once and ruptured her uterus. The mom bleed heavily inside the uterus and that in turn infected the kids.

Of course these kids are bottle raised. We allow these babies to grow up with know negative babies. I know there is speculation can be passed through saliva and to be totally honest I dont know. We have never ended up with a positive kid to be able to test it. But as with HIV I would highly doubt it. These babies are raised on milk from negative dam (tested right before kidding season). This way we can test the kids earlier then normal. Even with negative results, when these kids are old enough to kid themselves, we still do not allow milk from these animals to be mixed with milk from other animals until 2 full years or two freshenings of negative tests have been done. This is a little extreme but its better to error on the side of caution. After that time, we know they are clean and no longer worry about it. The positive does on the other hand are never milked. They kid, we take the kids and they dry up.

So although there are some important steps to follow, its really pretty easy to contain CAE and to manage it with just a little bit of dedication and eventually, eradicate it from your herd.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Always good to know this information. I havent read up on it as much as the CL because .. CL is of course the worse of the two and is very dangerous to keep or try to manage(impossible to manage well). We have a closed herd & only buy clean animals but will be getting all tested this next week for CL and CAE just to be able to say that all have been tested. So .. it is so good to bring this subject up to know how to deal with it in a herd and to encourage future goat owners to work on buying tested animals & eventually also eliminating it out of herd.


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## LaZyAcres (Aug 25, 2010)

Thanks Amy for raising this subject now. It's good timing because I just had a doe tested for CAE and am waiting for results.....!! 

I've read lots online but thats all pretty clinical. I'd like to understand how all of you deal with it. I don't want her to be in pain unnecessarily.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I have a friend who was more freaked out that her goats had CL then CAE..I didnt understand that..Im new to testing. I didnt test for ever for many of the same reasons others dont test, 
#1: my goats all "looked" healthy. 
#2: reports indicated testing was unreliable with false Neg/pos. 
#3: fear. I was afraid to find out. 
In testing I found Three were positive. 2 were sisters. I was devistated but at the same time relieved to know everyone else was clean. I was lucky and found a great home for my three as the only goats with a person who knows how to handle CAE Pos. does....
My point is...not testing didnt change the fact they Had CAE, They were not systematic...healthy otherwise..you can not tell by looking.

Although there _seems_ to be an understanding when it comes to CAE...I fear we dont really understand CAE at all. There are still more questions than answers...
*Does it effect humans? they say no...how do we really know? 
*Some wonder if drinking the milk from CAE pos. Does helps humans build immunity to HIV
*How safe is it to run Pos with Neg herd?.Some say they have done it for years and never had a problem,others say you need ten feet barrier between pos/neg herd..

We know the basics.. what it is, symptoms, how to manage it ..but we know very little more than that...I look forward to reading this thread..Maybe a few questions can be answered..maybe we will encourage testing...maybe as a group we can do our part to stop CAE from spreading..

in responding to this thread..please keep our motto



> *Keep it friendly keep it fun*


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

When I first started with goats 30 some off years ago, CAE was not well known. The breeder I stumbled upon was very informed about goat health, AI and all things imaginable and taught me well. My original herd was CAE-. I had a farm hand who left his herd of Saanens and a couple of Nubians, all extremely well bred, big money animals (long story why he ran out in the middle of the night) and, come to find out, most were CAE+. 

I had kept that herd separate from my herd, fortunately, anyway. I had a couple of kids born with the encephalitis form of CAE, had seizures and died. Vet confirmed (as best she could way back then). Had several symptomatic does- all very sad. I vowed to NEVER have CAE+ animals again. 

Fast forward to the present with a new herd. Some of my does were CAE+ but not symptomatic (because very few people practice CAE prevention around here as Amyboogie knows) so I started the prevention protocol and ended up with a CAE- herd again. After that, only tested CAE- animals on my property.

Lost that herd to a fire. Have to start all over again with some CAE+ and some CAE- animals. The + doe kids will be pulled and bottled with pasteurized milk. I have it all in my freezer waiting for the kids of 2014. The bucks go for meat, so I won't bother, they can stay on the moms.

I hear lots of people poo-poo the seriousness of CAE. Most of them are people who have + herds and don't want to bother wiht the prevention protocol. Yes, there are people who want CAE+ milk because they claim it helps their body fight AIDS/HIV. Maybe it does, maybe it is just a case of mind over matter. I believe the reasoning behind that is because HIV/AIDS and CAE are both viruses that can mutate to avoid a cure. (I forgot what that is called, I used to know) That is what makes them very hard to find a cure, but what makes people think that one can help fight the other.

CAE is also the reason that most European countries cannot import american goats. They don't have it and sure don't want it.

A simple blood test will tell you + or -. It's fairly inexpensive. Some of CAE is still a mystery simply because goats are not important enough or make enough money for the research groups to research. Someday, maybe we will have answers. 

A CL animal will never be on my property. A CAE+ animal I can, and do, work with. Since my does are pets as well as livestock, I have trouble culling a healthy CAE+ doe, so she stays but will not raise her doe kids. I am not afraid of it like I am CL.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm going to put this here because it's interesting and it offers hope for a group of people. This research is having to be done in Mexico and Europe because the US wants nothing to do with this research. I'm not saying anything good CAE nor do I think that it should be in the normal persons herd. It also shows that there are different strains of CAE. The disease is interesting, so easy to prevent yet impossible to cure.

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg14378.html


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## GreenMountainNigerians (Jul 3, 2013)

Thanks Goathiker. Really interesting.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I think it would be outstanding for them to find a true cure for HIV through the a goats CAE virus. Not only the most versatile livestock animal out there but a saver of lives as well  BUT this is absolutely the worse justification for someone to have CAE positive goats. Am glad that most goat owners are fanatics and would rather protect their goaties.

Clinical signs of CAE: As mentioned, a weaking of the immune system results is easier worm and parasite infestation. A general deterioration of the animals over all appearance. But most obvious is the swollen front knees. As the arthritis start to set in and grow, the knees will grow more and more pronounced. Walking will be come painful. More often then not, one leg will hurt more then the other and they will often left the worse leg off the ground to take the weight off of it. Winters will bring significantly more pain then warmer months. And if left long enough, the knees often fuse together making it impossible for the goat to bend them anymore. Which is kind of a blessing as once they are fused, they dont seem to suffer nearly as much pain. Eventually though, they will lay down one day and just not be able to get up.


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## GreenMountainNigerians (Jul 3, 2013)

Just my own opinion but as someone that is disabled by Rheumatoid and Osteo Arthritis,I couldn't bear to see my girls suffer with that kind of severe pain. Awful.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Weird, I don't see anything in that post that justifies owning a CAE+ goat. People in a lab don't own goats. They have a freezer full of vials of viruses. 
It would be kind of hard for the normal person to tell whether their goat had the right strain of CAE anyway.


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## GreenMountainNigerians (Jul 3, 2013)

I would see anything positive coming from owning a CAE goat,for myself.


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## GreenMountainNigerians (Jul 3, 2013)

My responses were in regards to TGs accurate description of the disease and it progression. Awful


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

So they start showing symptoms at about 6 years? I'm so scared of diseases popping up, haha :/ Even though I test, it is scary!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

They can show symptoms sooner. I had a doe who was four years old. After kidding I noticed her knee was swollen. She didn't limp not act I'll, had her tested and she was CaE pos. it depends on the does immune system I think. Also in Hinds. sight, I realize she was never a heavy milker. She had the udder but it was never full...


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The 6 years thing was the lifespan you could expect for a heavily infected new born kid to when it dies. That is not to say that all kids would be that way. That was just the typical age babies who nursed off positive moms, living their entire lives with CAE, would typically need to be put down on the commercial farm I started out on.

Now with that being said, you could have a CAE positive animal never show any clinical signs and live to be just as old as a negative goat. In fact. When we left the commercial farm and started our own, we brought with us 6 older foundation does who were CAE positive. No CL though, that was were we drew the line. In any event, there are still 3 of the old ladies still alive and without a single sign of being CAE positive. Being foundation animals and of course beloved pets, and with the knowledge we had of an effective CAE prevention program, we had no concerns about bring them with us. A living testament to a CAE prevention program that works you might say. And until last year, they were still being bred and giving us health kids. We decided to stop kidding them out for 2 reasons. At ages of 10-12 years old (granted the 12 year hast been breed for 2 years) they all reached their cut off age and just simply get to enjoy (as much as they can) living out the rest of their days in retirement. The second reason was the youngest of the lot, last year tried to pass two kids at once. It tore her uterus and promptly infected both kids with CAE from the bleeding and their birth sacks having already popped due to the odd attempted delivery. The buck was of course sold for meat but the doe, a bald faced beautiful little girl is still here. Their mama bleed out and died within the hour.

So now here we are stuck with this beautiful yearling doe that is CAE positive with only two choices. Keep her and potentially have to deal with her CAE prevention for the next 12+ years if she never goes clinical like 5 outta the original 6 never did. OR sell at the nasty livestock auction. Which of course her being just as sweet as sugar we would never do. But its near impossible to find a quality home for a CAE positive animal with owers who know the disease and would still be interested in taking her. So, we have decided to suspend anymore positive breedings. Even with the young one. And she will stay here until the right person comes along and is willing to take her. The crap thing is, in a few more years when the old positive does die of old age, she will be by herself unless we end up with a non breeder maybe that would go in with her.

Thats a little off topic but it does give body to it with what to expect and secondary issues that can come about.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

ksalvagno said:


> That doesn't even make any sense. Why would anyone "prefer" milk from a diseased goat? Doesn't matter to me if it "can't" be passed to humans.
> 
> I have my girls tested. I want my herd to be disease free. As far as I'm concerned, you never know when it will mutate and you be able to get it.
> 
> Plus, when they do have symptoms, they are in terrible pain. Why let a goat go through that.


I agree with you 100%, but you would be surprised at how many people don't care if their goats have CAE or not. I know I was dumbfounded - especially when these same people freaked out over CL.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

packhillboers said:


> CL is of course the worse of the two and is very dangerous to keep or try to manage(impossible to manage well).


I have to disagree with you on this point. CAE will kill your kids faster than CL will because of the encephalitis. CAE will also destroy your does productive life because of the hard udder and arthritis. CAE causes terrific pain, makes it very difficult for a doe affected by it to get to feed, water, pasture, or even walk. I don't understand why you think that CL is the worst of the two?


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

ThreeHavens said:


> So they start showing symptoms at about 6 years? I'm so scared of diseases popping up, haha :/ Even though I test, it is scary!


They can show symptoms much sooner than that. I've had does start showing symptoms as early as 2-3 years of age.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I think when people say CL is worse then CAE they are referring to the the disease itself. It unpredictability and the difficulty to contain/manage it. It has nothing to do with which one is worse for the animal. But if you think in terms of overall destructiveness to an entire herd, CL is by far the worse disease.

But the pain inflicted upon the animal can be worse if you take into account the damage internal abscess do to an animal. Its one thing to have terrible pain in the knees and lose conditioning vs external CL abscess but if a CL animal develops them internally, this kinda damage and pain can and will far out do the worse CAE case.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Again, I disagree.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Please explain on what point you disagree so we can discuss it in more detail. I love to hear the other side of a discussion as much as I love to have mine heard


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

The overall "destructiveness" of CL being worse than CAE. CL is a major pain in the butt to try to control - I'm not going to argue with you on that point for one single second! But "destructiveness"? Please! 

1. Except for the lancing/draining/healing of the abscess CL appears to be totally painless as opposed to a doe suffering the effects of CAE including difficulty walking, pain upon standing, difficulty reaching water and food in some cases, the inability to get out of the way of more aggressive does and the resulting head butts and being knocked down, loss of weight due to the stress placed on her body from the pain, and the possibility of secondary illness/disease because of stress compromising her immune system.

2. When is the last time you had a kid die from a CL abscess as opposed to kids dying from encephalitis due to CAE? Granted it is not unheard of for a goat to develop the internal form of CL, but it is certainly not the norm. 

3. In my experience, if CL is handled properly it rarely raises its ugly head again as opposed to CAE which keeps on giving. The #1 method of CL transmission is through contact with the contents of an abscess. There is evidence to suggest that CAE is not only transmitted through the dams milk, but also through bodily fluids, sexual contact, and in-utero.

4. Unless the internal form of CL is developed, CL does not affect a does milk production, unlike CAE which can cause a hard udder, mastitis, and reduced milk production.

5. CL rarely shortens a does productive life, but CAE considerably shortens the productive on a pretty regular basis.

6. Colorado Serum has a CL vaccine developed for sheep that, if memory serves, is somewhere around 85% effective in goats. Texas Vet Labs has also developed a vaccine for CL in goats, but it is too new to have an efficacy rating just yet. There is no vaccine, treatment, or preventative for CAE except pulling kids at birth and that is ineffective if it is indeed transmitted in-utero. 

Which one is the more "destructive"?

PS Those are just the points I can remember right now. I've had both CL and CAE in my herd, and I've researched both of them in depth, but it's been a while and I do not remember all of the pertinent facts, suggestions, or evidence to suggest.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

People need to realize that CL is destructive to the herd & I just don't think it is an easy to manage disease... and not just to an individual herd.. but this disease is popping up everywhere now and it is going to be epidemic if people don't start being responsible with this disease... and also because people are not managing ... culling diseased animals that have a very serious contagious disease like CL. I believe it is because people are not educated in it. We didnt know when we first got into goats but fortunately have not had to deal with it and now that we know about it... we won't want it here so we buy only from disease free herds.. If we ended up with CL in our herd... we would put the animal down.. we would not sell it to someone else. If we ended up having a CAE goat... it would all depend, but I would not want to breed that goat. If it were my pet, I would see to it that she was not in pain. If the CAE were causing pain or discomfort so that the animal was miserable then I would put the goat down. At least CAE can be managed more easily in a herd.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I know that people are entitled to do whatever works best in their individual little or big farms.. but when peoples' poor management of CL ends up at the Fair or at an auction or for sell to new goat owners then it is effecting the rest of us and we sure don't appreciate the spread of this disease going off like it is.. Both CL & CAE are the common diseases that we worry about, but with discernment and learning all we can... we can sure help the goat industry for all by being responsible with what we do know. People who have CL goats that decide to manage by lancing .. please just keep it to yourselves and don't sell any or give any goats away to anyone. I know people who have had CL pop up in their herd.. It was evidently on the property when they got the goats. They are careful and wise about where they buy from but when it popped up... the animal was quickly put down and the herd is now tested often to assure it has not spread... had they not acted in this way.. they would perhaps have been out of business. They have been CL free now for several years. As for CAE... should we be breeding an animal that has this? If it is passed on to the baby via the milk.. seems like a lot of work to bottle feed that baby and get good colostrum in the kids .. so.. that won't work for us as it may for others.. Still in best interest to all the goat industry to breed disease free animals and I believe most agree and do want this end as well.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

GoatCrazy said:


> I have to disagree with you on this point. CAE will kill your kids faster than CL will because of the encephalitis. CAE will also destroy your does productive life because of the hard udder and arthritis. CAE causes terrific pain, makes it very difficult for a doe affected by it to get to feed, water, pasture, or even walk. I don't understand why you think that CL is the worst of the two?


Well.. it is the worst of the two ... as it is something humans can contact- especially in the way that most people know nothing about the disease at all and they may not use precautions with the lumps showing up all over their goat. It is a bacteria that is non-treatable .. it is serious for humans to get this.. and especially with children around infected goats ... now that make me nervous .. YES it is much more contagious than CAE and that bacteria can last on your property for a while.. possibly up to 7 or more years. Would you want your children or someone getting cut on a pen where a CL goat rubbed its cyst on and popped it.. ? No.. so that is what freaks some of us cautious goat farmers out.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I love that this group has so much experience and information to share.... and opinions 

I think we can all agree that CL and CAE are pretty awful for any goat to have. How we each decide to manage it is our own and I can see how for some, they would "prefer" one over the other. 

Goathiker - Thank you for posting that study. It is the connection to AIDS that had people trying to sell me CAE+ goats saying that they might be preferred. They are not my preference but I think it would be great if a nasty goat disease was able to help a horrid human one.

Just for the record about CL - there is only one reported case of goat to human transmission. Honestly with some of the shoddy practices I've seen on farms, I'm surprised there aren't more if it's really that catchy to humans. Of course, it's better to be safe than sorry.

CAE is a more cut and dry topic than CL. More research has been done and there is less wild speculation/hysteria. It is again, another disease that is far too widespread and if owners were educated, they could help eradicate it. There is no reason that any of these diseases need to be as widespread as they are. Auction barns, dishonesty, and little knowledge aren't helping.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Thank you GoatCrazy for expanding on your opinion. Its the ability to share, listen to and defend two totally difference sides of a goat topic that brings about better husbandry. Even if the each person, on opposing sides, pinpoints the worse of one and best of the other to get their opinion across. So I think in all fairness it might be best to say that both CAE and CL are both potentially equally destructive to both the goat and the herd as it all boils down to individual experience.

For me and my experience with fighting each of these diseases to the tune of hundreds cases of each, I disagree either in part or in whole to just about all your points. But thats ok. I wasnt expecting your opinion to change mine and I would hope my opinion wouldnt change yours either. Instead I was hoping to show those who do not take either of these diseases seriously the passion that one needs to put behind their prevention programs. To express the importance of having as much knowledge as possible so that they can run those prevention programs with as much success as possible and to understand. You are not battling for the positive animal. That battle has already been lost. Instead you are battling to save the rest of your farm and the uninfected animals on it.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

I love this thread. Thanks AmyBoogie for starting it. So much great information, on pros and cons on CAE and how it's handled. Wish I had known this before getting goats, BUT since there's no testing here on the island, it wouldn't matter. But this is great to know for future herds.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

packhillboers said:


> It is a bacteria that is nontreatable ..


This is an incorrect statement. Antibiotics will kill the bacteria that causes CL when it is circulating in the goats body. It in only AFTER it has been walled off in an abscess that the antibiotics cannot get to it.

I've been sorely tempted to try injecting antibiotics into a CL abscess and see it it would destroy the abscess. The only reason I haven't is because I'm not sure how much it would take, how the goat's body would react to it, puncturing the abscess could very well cause it to burst, and it seems too much like experimentation to me and I'm not comfortable with that.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

TDG-Farms said:


> Thank you GoatCrazy for expanding on your opinion. Its the ability to share, listen to and defend two totally difference sides of a goat topic that brings about better husbandry. Even if the each person, on opposing sides, pinpoints the worse of one and best of the other to get their opinion across. So I think in all fairness it might be best to say that both CAE and CL are both potentially equally destructive to both the goat and the herd as it all boils down to individual experience.
> 
> For me and my experience with fighting each of these diseases to the tune of hundreds cases of each, I disagree either in part or in whole to just about all your points. But thats ok. I wasnt expecting your opinion to change mine and I would hope my opinion wouldnt change yours either. Instead I was hoping to show those who do not take either of these diseases seriously the passion that one needs to put behind their prevention programs. To express the importance of having as much knowledge as possible so that they can run those prevention programs with as much success as possible and to understand. You are not battling for the positive animal. That battle has already been lost. Instead you are battling to save the rest of your farm and the uninfected animals on it.


No problem. I can live with both of them having the potential of being equally destructive to the afflicted goat(s) and their owners. I also agree 100% that, somehow, the goat industry has to find a way to move past the hysteria that surrounds both of these diseases and find a way to eradicate them. Both of these diseases are very serious and anyone who owns goats, or is thinking about getting goats, has to do their research, learn as much as they can about both of them, and be prepared to deal with them in an effective way so as to stop the spread of these diseases.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Goat Crazy - traditional over the counter antibiotics do not touch CL. Not even when it's in the goats body. You can help a goat fight the antibodies with herbal immunity boosts and such but nothing touches it for antibiotics. You can use vaccine or have a vaccine made for your herd that would do the job. I've talked to WSU, they believe the goat vaccine is good and helpful, an autogenus vaccine is better, but nothing else works.

I suppose you could try and see what happens. I don't know how you'd know it worked on the pus in an abscess because the pus would remain, it would just be inert dead bacteria. There is not enough good knowledge about CL. 

And there is no vaccine at all for CAE which from reports that I've read is far more widespread. Harder to spread in a herd for sure but there is a larger percentage of goats that have it. At least in the dairy world.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Its funny (not haha funny) how each of us view both diseases..one as better or not as bad as the other...For me I rather deal with CL which is usually not life threatening (unless internal) and is not painful as CAE is to the goat...I understand any time a goat is fighting disease of any sort it is not well, can have discomfort, what Im talking about if the suffering CAE causes when it becomes active in the goat. So yes, I would rather deal with CL then CAE however, like Goatcrazy...I believe its the resposability of every goat owner to do its part in eradicating both diseases. There are few ways of doing this with out heart break...
*Not allowing it to spread through our herd, seperating and treating CL responsably/ sepreating kids from CAE pos does
*Euthanizing very sick animals. 
*dont use the sale barns as a dumping ground or selling our infected animals to someone who can not manage the disease responsably. 
I have had CAE in five goats total in my 8 years. First was a gift from hubby...I saw right away something was wrong. Her knees were swollen and painful. I was fairly new to goats and used my vet to comfirm CAE through blood work then asked him to put her down. She was in a lot of pain. 
Second was Claudia. Had her since she was weened. Age four her knee swelled up after kidding. (a stressor) It didntheal so I had her tested, She was positive. We sold her to a man who needed the milk and understood how to deal with CAE. 
This is when I only tested when I saw a need. This year I tested my whole herd and found three Postive. One was a 2 year old I bottle raised!! Ugh. I went on a hunting binge to find a good home for them. I found one. The person took all three, they were the only goats she would have and she know how to handle and manage CAE pos. Does. I was lucky to find not one but two different people not only willing to take the girls but understood the managing of the disease. There are CAE postive ranches that will take your Pos. Goats as long as they are not showing symptoms..Finding them can be a chore..its not like they advertise lol..but they are out there. If I found most my herd to be Positive I would have managed it instead of rehomeing the pos. goats..
If we all did our part in not spreading either disease...then it will fade out...we will never rid our goats of the disease because not everyone feels as strongly as we do about the care of goats...but we will make a huge dent in it. 
sorry if that was off subject .... I also appriciate the calm debating, respectful replies of everyone..this is another one of those subjects that we can be very passonate about..you guys are a prety awesome group :thankU::thumbup:


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

You can sterilize milk and keep goats in seperate pens to control and manage CAE. CL is condemning. You CAN NOT sterilize a goat. And it can stay in the soil and other materials for years! It is gross, definitely the worse of the two IMO. At least goats with CAE can share a fence line with negative goats, as long as they can't share feed/water, you will be just fine. Pull kids and pasteurized milk!


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## barbara_l (Aug 18, 2013)

Have been reading this discussion with interest. I'm not a breeder--just have 2 pet Oberhasli that were rescues. One came back positive for CAE, which was no surprise. He has a weak hind end, arthritis in hips and sometimes forelegs, rough coat, and all other typical characteristics. Vet has been treating him with stem cell transplants (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/9/prweb8825310.htm) and there has been a marked difference in mobility, pain, etc.
I'm hoping he has a much longer and better quality of life.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

GoatCrazy said:


> This is an incorrect statement. Antibiotics will kill the bacteria that causes CL when it is circulating in the goats body. It in only AFTER it has been walled off in an abscess that the antibiotics cannot get to it.
> 
> I've been sorely tempted to try injecting antibiotics into a CL abscess and see it it would destroy the abscess. The only reason I haven't is because I'm not sure how much it would take, how the goat's body would react to it, puncturing the abscess could very well cause it to burst, and it seems too much like experimentation to me and I'm not comfortable with that.


 I disagree, with your disagreement, no antibiotic ever touches CL.

I see both diseases, as devastating. No matter how you look at it.
I don't see one being less harmful than the other, both are hard on the animal and the breeder. The breeder if responsible, must work hard, to keep the rest of their herd clean and safe and in hopes, that CL will not effect their land as well. CAE is hard because the babies will have no momma, when they are pulled immediately, being unfair and so hard on both, plus more work for the breeder. Ridding these animal are best. But, I know, some try to work around it.

I highly disrespect Breeders, that are not honest to the buyer, if the goats have these diseases and knowingly sell them, which is so unfair and ridicules IMO. 
Of course, It is up to each breeder, how to handle each situation, however, that breeder, is also responsible for the aftermath and spreading, if handled poorly. We as breeders need to be responsible for our actions. And really think about, what is the best thing for me and my herd.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

If people are not being responsible with preventing these two diseases in their own herd, what will happen when other more threatening diseases such as Johnes or Brucellosis, TB or other things start up in this country? Its not so much that CAE isnt worse than CL.. it is that so many of you have had this disease pop up in your herds and have had to deal with it that concerns me. It is a very high percentage and appears to be growing in numbers. I read that it was once estimated that over 25% of goat farms in USA have CAE in their herds but I believe that it is now higher than that after reading on this forum. I have read over the years on this forum about a minimal number of people who have dumped their CL and CAE or diseased sickly goats at auctions or gave away their sickly goats. This is one main reason I believe why we now have an increase in this disease. I just would like to see some adequate responsibility on the part of goat owners to take care of this disease and keep it from spreading however they decide to do so.. as long as they are being responsible with their management and also realistic in dealing with factual hardships of managing. Diseases in the livestock in our country;- we do not want it to get out of control in such a way that the government has to step in and destroy whole herds of animals. No,we dont want that at all! So PLEASE do your best to help prevent this. This whole forum thread ended up largely on managing a herd with CAE instead of preventing it from spreading so.. that is mostly because .. so many already have it in their herds. It has been a good informative discussion and we can all learn from each other on how to further help the prevention of this disease and other diseases.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Merry - I'm not sure what the percentage of overall goats are but at one time the percentage was 80% of all dairy tested were CAE pos. Now this is the number that is tested. Living in an area that doesn't test but has a lot of goats, I'm willing to believe there are an astounding number of goats with these diseases. People don't want to know, they don't care, the don't have the knowledge of testing....

It really is up to those with the knowledge to not propagate these diseases. Not to foist sick goats on the unsuspecting. We can do this. There will always be people that don't care and or prefer to remain without knowledge, it just means we have to work harder.

I believe we can keep sick goats on our farm if we wish to but it's our job to not propagate the disease. Whether that is through euthanizing, butchering, or to breed responsibly (or not at all).

edit:
That means this post is valid to talk about managing procedures in the way of managing so as not to propagate. Not all goats need to be destroyed because they're positive but they do need to be managed in such a way that the diseases don't spread.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I have read this thread, and let's me just say how thankful I am to have a clean herd thus far.... I will be testing again most likely in June, that way my little ones will be old enough to be tested.... It all sounds awful to me... One thing for certain is if any of my herd was suffering..., I couldn't watch that and I would put them down.... I wouldn't be able to sell a sick goat at auction or to anyone for that matter without telling them.... If any of those diseases came up in my herd at some point I would probably just put them down... I know that sounds harsh, but I think it would be wise in the long run... HARD but wise, and it is the only way to 100% not spread anything to the others.....


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

GoatCrazy said:


> This is an incorrect statement. Antibiotics will kill the bacteria that causes CL when it is circulating in the goats body. It in only AFTER it has been walled off in an abscess that the antibiotics cannot get to it.
> 
> I've been sorely tempted to try injecting antibiotics into a CL abscess and see it it would destroy the abscess. The only reason I haven't is because I'm not sure how much it would take, how the goat's body would react to it, puncturing the abscess could very well cause it to burst, and it seems too much like experimentation to me and I'm not comfortable with that.


Sorry GoatCrazy but you are entirely wrong about this statement. No anti biotic of any kind effects the CL bacteria. And there have been tests of CL abscess being injected at all stages with all ranges of anti biotics with no effect. When each one was lanced, they still had the expected levels of the CL bacteria in the cavity. This is all because CL hides within the cells.

CL can show up in any of the following areas: lymph nodes and lymphoid tissues - especially superficial lymph nodes around head, chest, flanks; also occurs in lungs, spinal cord, liver, abdominal cavity, kidney, spleen, brain and udder. If anyone of these areas are infected with an abscess and leaks, it can infect other animals and people. And no anti biotic can stop it. The most common area is of course the jaw under the ear but the older a goat gets the more and more likely they have and or are growing internal abscess as the bacteria builds in the goats system.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good views by all. I do not want to deal with any of these diseases and even stopped going to the shows, in fear of picking up something. 
I have tons of breeders wanting to breed to my Buck yoda and I have to say no, sorry, I have a close herd.

Any buyers that come to my place, now must step in bleach water before looking. It is sad, it had to come to that, but hey, I am scared for my goats. I have a clean herd so far and trying really hard to keep it that way.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Seems like I saw somewhere that one of the UE countries had reduced the diseases greatly by requiring testing to show. I need to find that again...


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

And if we look to Australia, they've been able to nearly eradicate CL by vaccinations. There isn't one yet for CAE and I don't know if there ever will be but maybe vaccinations is the way to go?

I know I'm fearful to take goats to a show. I'd feel safer if vaccination was a standard practice for all the big goat diseases.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Facebook page for eradicating CAE
https://www.facebook.com/EradicateCAEinGoats

Maybe we in the US need to take the same stance and really get people on board.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I wish the FDA would approve the vaccine that AU uses for use here. That would give us a well tested and proven vaccine for CL.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

If they ever found a way to tell the difference between a vaccinated goat and a CL positive goat, and solid proof it protects 100% when used correctly, Id be much more inclined to use a vaccine.But as of now, no way would I use it.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

goathiker said:


> I wish the FDA would approve the vaccine that AU uses for use here. That would give us a well tested and proven vaccine for CL.


I agree. I am willing to vaccinate my goats but I want to know it will work. I have one vet that stand behind the current vaccine and another that says he's seen no improvement in transmission with a herd he's working with. WSU stands behind the goat vaccine as well.

I think the idea of accrediting/testing a herd before showing is a good one. Of course, you can't really do the under 8 month set (or you could but it's a higher risk of false negatives).


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No, I'm also on the wait and see bench on the new vaccine. The one in AU though has been used for many years. They need to make it vet only like a Rabies vaccine with a tattoo to mark the vaccinated goat perhaps.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

That FB link for the Eradicating CAE in Australia is a MUST READ.

Really good information about how they're going about this. 
How do we do this here in the US? We need to get the big organizations on board?


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

They have a Pinterest too!
http://pinterest.com/goatvetoz/what-cae-does-to-goats/


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The biggest problem in the US is all the people who are afraid of "big brother" in their business. Part of why the Scrapies program isn't working too well. We never can get rid of those last few cases.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Maybe we in the US need to take the same stance and really get people on board.


I think that woud be a great idea...in one thread a while back it, (I cant remember the ins and outs of the thread) only when asking for help to ID a problem the first thing said was.." we dont have the diseases you in the US have..." ..Why is it some country have a better handle on these important health issues of goats and sheep? These diseases effect us world wide...we should be working together to bring an end to CAE and CL as well as other illnesses...I think as long as we who own Goats stay quiet..we will remain the country who have the diseases...not liking that rep at all lol


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I wouldn't want the vaccine to be purchased through a vet only, that would be too costly, especially if, you have many goats. 

I don't have faith in the new CL vaccine yet for goats, it is way to new on the market for me.

I knew of someone that used the sheep CL vaccine and their goats broke out from it badly, when it was first introduced. Scary stuff.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah, the cost is the problem. In England when they did TB eradication the government paid for the testing. 

There's got to be a way to put a marker in the vaccine that could be found on the test.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

AmyBoogie said:


> Goat Crazy - traditional over the counter antibiotics do not touch CL.


Yes, they will. Antibiotics cannot penetrate the abscess due to its being walled off from the body, but plain old penicillin will kill the bacteria that causes CL.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/cir...s_and_lymphangitis/caseous_lymphadenitis.html

http://veterinaryextension.colostate.edu/menu2/sm rum/Caseous Lymphadenitis in Small Ruminants.pdf

http://web.mst.edu/~microbio/BIO221_2010/C_pseudotuberculosis.html


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Paige said:


> At least goats with CAE can share a fence line with negative goats, as long as they can't share feed/water, you will be just fine. Pull kids and pasteurized milk!


You don't know that because the experts don't know that. There has been evidence to suggest that CAE can be transmitted in-utero, and by saliva. Who knows what they will find when goats become a big enough business that it's worth researching these diseases. It has already been proven that pulling kids and pasteurizing milk does not always prevent CAE.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Why would you even suggest to people to assume the dangerous side of the argument is the best way to believe when there is literature on both. Whats even more disheartening is that you posted a link about an article to back your theory when a closer read of that article even states results more to the fact that anti biotics do not work on the CL bacteria.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/cir...s_and_lymphangitis/caseous_lymphadenitis.html

And I quote "Longterm (4-6 wk) penicillin (22,000 IU/kg, IM, bid) and rifampin (10-20 mg/kg, PO, sid) has been used to treat the internal form of CL with limited success." *LIMITED*

Its a great article by the way and gives a few different reasons on why not to use the vaccine. Supports the fact that there is no vaccine marker so a vaccinated animal can not be differentiated from a infected animal. The vaccine, and I quote "Vaccination of young replacement stock reduces the incidence and prevalence of CL within a flock, but it will not prevent all new infections or cure infected animals." It also states (and I can testify to) that vaccinating already infected animals can (and in my experience does more often then not) result in a injection site reaction that forums an abscess of its own and can cause lameness, lethargy.

Now with this said and being my opinion, I do believe that a heavily infected herd could benefit greatly from the use of the vaccine in an attempt to clean up the herd.

Here is another quote about using the vaccine on goats: "Extralabel use of the vaccine in goats is associated with poorer efficacy and more adverse reactions (eg, decreased milk production, fever, malaise, ataxia, ventral edema, and occasionally death). However, some success using the commercial CL vaccine in goats has been reported. Anecdotal successes have been reported with the use of autogenous CL vaccines in sheep and goats."

Ill have to find the article I found earlier that paints a clear picture on anti biotics and how once the bacteria enters the cell, the biotic cant reach it as it is enclosed in the cell.

Originally Posted by *Paige*  
At least goats with CAE can share a fence line with negative goats, as long as they can't share feed/water, you will be just fine. Pull kids and pasteurized milk!

NO THEY CANT. They shouldnt even be within 25 yards of each other. Not only should you assume there is CL bacteria on the goat and in the positive pen, but if a positive goat with intern lung abscess happens to cough on a clean goat, they could easily pass it to the negative goat. And thats just one of a few different ways it could be passed.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

TDG-Farms said:


> Why would you even suggest to people to assume the dangerous side of the argument is the best way to believe when there is literature on both.


What are you talking about?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

GoatCrazy said:


> I have to disagree with you on this point. CAE will kill your kids faster than CL will because of the encephalitis. CAE will also destroy your does productive life because of the hard udder and arthritis. CAE causes terrific pain, makes it very difficult for a doe affected by it to get to feed, water, pasture, or even walk. I don't understand why you think that CL is the worst of the two?


In the many years spent on the commercial farm, literally kidding out hundreds of times outta CAE positive animals, not once did we have a case of encephalitis.

And as for the pain factor of these diseases on a goat, they are equally the same IMO. As both take many years to get to a painful point, but a goat cant express how painful it is to have lungs, liver, spin and any of the other areas covered in abscess. So to assume a chronic CAE goat is in more pain just because you can see it, doesnt make it true. Both effect productivity and quality of life and leave the goats immune system compromised.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Looks like we all kind of got in a debate of which is worse CAE or CL...but the I beleive the thread is a discussion on CAE...perhaps its best to keep the discussion on point...There is so much to learn and understand about CAE, although there is a ton of info..there is still so much we dont understand...If I learned anything at all in raising Goats..Knowledge is the key to a healthy herd....Goat Spot is the perfect place to gain knowledge..we all have something important to add and we dont all have to agree...knowing all sides enables us to have enough information to decide how to best manage our herd...I appriciate everyone points of view..this is good stuff


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

GoatCrazy said:


> What are you talking about?


... the entire point of your post and links is what I am talking about. You are telling people that anti biotics kill the CL bacteria and its not true. Or I should say in a real world setting it isnt true. I am sure on a dish in a lab, if you had the bacteria and put penicillin on it, it would most likely kill it. But thats not how it works in real life. The bacterial embeds itself inside of the cells. Protecting itself from biotics or the goats own ability to fight it off via their immune system.

See I tried hard to just let you voice your opinion without countering it and was actually interested in your reasoning. But when you keep quoting people and telling em they are wrong when IMO it is you who are mistaken, I could no long not step in. And when your own links lend more support to the side that says penicillin doesnt help, by stating it has only shown limited success, I think it warrants bring it to light.

And now that I have started on the offensive I think it would be best if I just walked away for the night and hopefully return with a calmer head tomorrow.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

TDG - back there when you quoted Paige, she was talking about CAE not CL. Yes CL needs to be 25 feet apart but I also don't believe that CAE goats should share a fence line. There is no proof that CAE can be transfered via saliva but it can be transfered through blood and a fenceline isn't enough of a distance to prevent blood transfer. So maybe at least 6-10 feet distance between CAE+ and CAE- goats.

I think the CL discussion was great when we had it and that if it needs to continue - IMO should be in that thread so that people looking for CL information can go there and read all of that. It's kind of muddling up the information on CAE. 
http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/cl-discussion-150100/

I really want to get back to discussing what we can do to help educate and reduce numbers of goats with CAE.... which would work for CL and Johnes too if there was a testing protocol set up.

Did you guys read what Australia is doing? I like to think it's possible here. I get that the "big brother" syndrome will make it so that there will be pockets of people refusing to care about these diseases but if we can make a dent and ALMOST entirely get rid of these, I think it would be a total win. The only way to do that is by banding together and coming up with a reasonable way to make this happen.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> what we can do to help educate and reduce numbers of goats with CAE.


I think this is the key to begin here, educate people on CAE. There is so much false info and scary info out there. I was afraid to test my herd and only tested when someone had me scratching my head. I adore all my goats, but I do have a few that would have killed me if they were positive. But I have said this before, not testing didnt change the fact if they were or wee not CAE pos. And I was exposing my clean girls and risking them and thier kids who could have stole a suck. Im ashamed to think of how many kids I sold off my property that could have been exposed. I have no idea of course, but the cloud still hangs over my head. I think we need to help people get past the fear of a Positive to see the full picture. And outline a safe plan to managing CAE girls if one chooses to... perhaps some kind of contact list of farms willing to purchase and run a CAE herd. I sold my 3 pos. girls for less than I would have sold one of them. But the good safe home with a well informed person made it the best choice for them. 
I'm reading the FB artcle o what Austalia is doing...its very interesting...I have more reading to do on it still....


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes, the article was interesting and informative.  I'm just wondering if CAE is as prevelant in other countries as it is in our country. I have read small based opinions that it is possibly due to the meat industry picking up in USA but if you go to India or other countries.. Countries that fight with so many awful diseases and that also have some of the highest goat meat consumption.. I am not sure that they are dealing with these diseases like we are. There are some very interesting large production goat farms in India. It isnt what you would expect from an over populated country.. They appear to manage, care and provide very well for their ranches and give a lot more vaccinations there for the reasons of some of the diseases. It seems like we have a problem because the majority of farms are small and have no desire or knowledge to limit diseases from our herds. Poor management and complacency has got us to where we are. Everyone wants a bit of a farm here and we just don't think the USA is a place that harbors disease like India or Africa.. but then... they know the potential and is possibly why some of the ranches there are maybe doing better than the USA. I know that some of these countries fight with horrific things like anthrax and other diseases but I think it also makes them more cautious too. (I still might not feel comfortable drinking milk from goats in some of these countries) But I read that even in the USA not long ago-we still need to realize we have had some small outbreaks of the 'bad ones' like Q fever, & Brucellosis- and others. I don't think many people in India can have or care for goats so it is all left up to the large producers that have strict regulations in dealing with disease. Nothing factual on that but the videos of the ranches and their websites are intriguing . I know India has its problems but.. english is the main language in many of the parts there so you can read their websites. I am curious as to what we would find not only in Australia but in other parts of the world as to what they do for diseases like CAE or CL and how they treat or prevent it. I don't believe it is spreading in USA because of the rapid market for goat meat.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ah sorry Paige, my mistake. Guess I was on a roll and swept you up into  Id still stick with the 5-6 foot separation at least. Just so a positive and a negative cant touch/bang heads/bust scurs...


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## Ride4ever (Aug 7, 2013)

I am learning so much from reading this post. Thanks to AmyBoogie! I own 1 CAE positive doe. She was the first Togg we bought and up until then we didn't really know that much about goats. My parents had had them for years, but CL and CAE were complete unknowns to them and me(I was 9 when we bought this goat). We found out about CAE and had all our does tested a few years ago just to see who had it and who didn't. We really didn't have a large enough herd to cull any out. Before the test we figured out through the does history that she had CAE, but we wanted to test her daughters. Before we got the results we had one of her daughters die of pneumonia/ clinical CAE. she was 6 months. None of our other does were + and we heat treated and bottle fed the rest of the doe that was babies. This doe runs with the rest of our CAE negative herd and is bred to the same buck as the others and has not given it to any of the other does. We have used her milk AFTER it was pasteurized. We would sell her now as we have more goats than we can handle, but she is the only reliable one in the bunch. No kidding problems, no mastitis. I show at ADGA shows and this is the one goat who has not been to a show in 5+ years, but I could still take her in any showmanship class without prior work and I would win. We do not buy CAE or CL + goats no matter what, but we have had no problems with the CAE in our herd other than this one goat.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Look what I discovered in my reading on Draxxin....

Interesting...???? Not sure Im convinced...lol
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=3043&S=6


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

whoa. Very cool Cathy. I'm going to add this to the CL discussion thread.


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## 91baby (Jan 15, 2013)

This is a very interesting thread but I sure wish people would stay on topic. This one is for CAE if you are interested in posting on CL please do it on a CL thread. Very frustrating for those of us trying to learn about CAE.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

91baby said:


> This is a very interesting thread but I sure wish people would stay on topic. This one is for CAE if you are interested in posting on CL please do it on a CL thread. Very frustrating for those of us trying to learn about CAE.


I totally agree baby. Jerks all wondering all over the place getting off topic! If I were a mod Id totally delete some of those posts that have nothing to do with this topic.  hehe. Actually Im not totally making fun. I think the thread could use a cleaning up.


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## LaZyAcres (Aug 25, 2010)

Yes, please stay on topic. 

I just got the results back and one is positive


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I'm really sorry to hear that you have a positive.
Did you find enough advice in the thread? If you need more ask.


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## 91baby (Jan 15, 2013)

My little doe may be infected, the breeder sent home milk for her, trying to give her a good start, she later discovered it came from a positive doe. By the time we found out were extremely attached and decided to keep her. Hoping for the best, will have her tested next month. I know odds are not in her favor.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Sometimes against all odds a kid doesn't get infected. Fingers crossed she beats the odds. And if she doesn't that she remains asymptomatic.


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## 91baby (Jan 15, 2013)

AmyBoogie said:


> Sometimes against all odds a kid doesn't get infected. Fingers crossed she beats the odds. And if she doesn't that she remains asymptomatic.


 YES! I am doing that. Either way she will have a good home.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sadly the odds are, that she may of contracted the CAE. Milk from an infected Doe, is the main way they spread it.


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## 91baby (Jan 15, 2013)

She was my first goat, have learned since how important is is to buy from breeders who test regularly.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Its all a learning process. 
Make sure you get to see the test results. And that the results are on goats over 8 months of age. Previous to 8 months they throw more false negatives. You could buy a goat you think is negative but turns out not to be when you test later on. So in a goat that is under 8 months, you need to see the mother's test.


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## 91baby (Jan 15, 2013)

I thought it was 6 months


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

It is 6 months. That mark is derived from the feeding of pasteurizing milk from positive dams. Pasteurizing kills CAE but will increase the kids teeter count. If weened at the typical 3 months, then by the 6th month you should be able to test and not receive a false positive test result. This also falls in line with the length of time it takes for a infected kid to amass a positive teeter level.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I always heard 6 months too but WA state and my vet told me 8-9 months. I suppose it all depends on when the kid is weened. 

If you're raising on CAE prevention can you test anytime?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

It might also be a fail safe time allowing for a much more concrete test result. We have tested kids earlier then 6 months. But that was the full spectrum test of CAE/CL/Johne's/TB and one other one I think that WSU offers. These were kids outta CAE positive dams pulled at birth and we were looking to see if the teeter count would be higher em. But at 4 months raised on clean milk, there was no elevated teeter count.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

This is a very helpful and informative thread, and I am glad this is being discussed.
I am still learning a lot about health care and husbandry of goats, and I feel very ignorant a lot of the time. However, I am very glad that TGS is here for people like me. It's such a great way to learn about things like this. 
I have wanted to test our goats for some time, but didn't have the funds. Hopefully we will finally be able to do that very soon. 
I'll admit, it scares me a little to think any of our goats out there in their pen could have one of these awful diseases.  I know It would be hard, but I think we would have to have any positives put down immediately. 
People around here are very ignorant about diseases. Almost everyone I have ever sold to or bought a goat from had not even heard of coccidiosis, much less CAE. 
I have been considering if my family needs a meat goat doe or two, so I checked Craigslist the other day just to see what's out there. Well, there's a ton of meat goats-many more than dairy goats in this area- but when I searched for CAE or Cl free animals, only ONE ad came up!  It is very sad that people are so ignorant.
I hope it won't always be that way; hopefully the more people that do know will impart what they know to others, especially people that buy animals from them- maybe that way the number of positives will lessen over time.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

It seems the people around here that test, don't always run ads. They go by word of mouth. Though, I've been a little shocked at the number of well known/popular sellers that don't test. Overall, just shocked at the number of people that don't test period. "My goats all seem fine so what does it matter?" Is the standard response. sigh.

Nigi breeders definitely out number the standard breeder numbers so even though I'm sure it's the same percentage of testers vs non testers, we can find tested and healthy nigis no problem. Standards....people won't even entertain me paying for testing.

I'm not sure how to go about it but I'd really like to see more people made aware of the diseases (sans hysteria) and educated properly. A CAE goat doesn't need to be put down/culled but then teach the processes that go into keeping one and keeping them healthy and how not to propagate the illness. 

All this research has changed me from wanting dam raised kids to being fully on board for raising kids using CAE preventive methods.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

All I know is that I would rather have neither of these in my herd! I will be testing all of my goats this year. I am nervous to find out the results! They are all 5+ and don't show any symptoms, but I know how that can go... :

EDIT-

Where do you guys find the most accurate tests for CAE, CL, Johnes, and maybe even Q-Fever?


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

IMO - waddl


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## ANurseswildflowers (Sep 11, 2013)

I am new to the goat thing...and have been reading about this. I purchased goats that came from CAE- farms, but I've read that goats can randomly convert with no obvious reason to how they got it. I truly don't like the idea of pulling kids off their moms just to prevent a disease that isn't a known issue with my ladies. This seems to be a hot topic. I get raw milk for my own family for the immune boosting benefits, why would I make my kid goat drink something that is not directly from the udder. I plan to milk the goat once a day and let the kids have the rest. Is this the wrong decision?


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Your herd, your decision. What's right for one herd might be wrong for another and visa versa. Lots of people leave the babies on the moms. Lots of people pull for CAE prevention. IMO, if that's the route you think is best then test before they give birth so you will know if you have to pull the kids or not.

I've heard of a goat all of a sudden becoming CAE pos for no reason but only anecdotal. I cannot find any scientific proof of it. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist but as far as I know, you need another CAE pos goat for another goat to get it. Sharing needles, sharing milking equipment, mother to offspring, blood to blood.....but I've never heard of it just happening. Maybe someone else has more information and can shed light on that?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

ANurseswildflowers said:


> I am new to the goat thing...and have been reading about this. I purchased goats that came from CAE- farms, but I've read that goats can randomly convert with no obvious reason to how they got it. I truly don't like the idea of pulling kids off their moms just to prevent a disease that isn't a known issue with my ladies. This seems to be a hot topic. I get raw milk for my own family for the immune boosting benefits, why would I make my kid goat drink something that is not directly from the udder. I plan to milk the goat once a day and let the kids have the rest. Is this the wrong decision?


I personally wouldn't drink it. Have you had her tested? Since she did come from CAE herd, she might surprise you and come out negative. CAE is painful for the animal, so in that sense I wouldn't want the kids getting it, but that is just my opinion. I hate seeing animals suffer, and if there is a way I can prevent it, I would.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Oops sorry I thought you got her from a CAE farm, I mis read the CAE- farm, I would just test, and just go on with your plan.... I separate my one kid from mom and milk in the AM, it works for me.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

ANurseswildflowers said:


> I am new to the goat thing...and have been reading about this. I purchased goats that came from CAE- farms, but I've read that goats can randomly convert with no obvious reason to how they got it. I truly don't like the idea of pulling kids off their moms just to prevent a disease that isn't a known issue with my ladies. This seems to be a hot topic. I get raw milk for my own family for the immune boosting benefits, why would I make my kid goat drink something that is not directly from the udder. I plan to milk the goat once a day and let the kids have the rest. Is this the wrong decision?


Goats cant randomly convert to being CAE. They either have it (already contracting it from another CAE positive goat/sheep) or they get infected later on from another CAE positive goat/sheep. There is no random converting. A responsible goat owner would either take the appropriate actions to protect their negative goats OR not offer to sell their infected goats without giving the buyer full understanding of the disease and what it does. As for it not being a known issue, that is because you are not testing your goats to fine out. Until the disease goes clinical, you may never know. And finally, if you chose for your faminly to drink it unpasteurized, that is fine. There is even talk about CAE positive milk being beneficial to HIV patients. BUT it is the WRONG decision to feed it raw to your goat kids as they will be come infected 100% for sure if they drink CAE positive milk.


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## ANurseswildflowers (Sep 11, 2013)

Actually, the "not known for my goats" means I have dealt with and purchased from proven CAE NEGATIVE HERDS and have goats who have cleared the test as NEGATIVE. I guess I am responsible after all. I never said I would be allowing a kid to milk on a CAE + goat. I've heard of many who bottle feed to prevent CAE even when they have a CAE negative herd and all their goats test NEGATIVE. That was what my question was about. Why would one want to bottle feed when no one is even positive?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

ANurseswildflowers said:


> Actually, the "not known for my goats" means I have dealt with and purchased from proven CAE NEGATIVE HERDS and have goats who have cleared the test as NEGATIVE. I guess I am responsible after all. I never said I would be allowing a kid to milk on a CAE + goat. I've heard of many who bottle feed to prevent CAE even when they have a CAE negative herd and all their goats test NEGATIVE. That was what my question was about. Why would one want to bottle feed when no one is even positive?


Not sure on that one really. I know a lot of people bottle feed, but that is so they can get all the milk and make the kids more friendly, so perhaps they have all those reasons in mind... That would be my guess anyway


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

ANurseswildflowers said:


> Why would one want to bottle feed when no one is even positive?


Although I agree with you, there are a number of people that raise goats to sell as pets, and bottle feeding ensures that the babies are comfortable around people and friendly. Another reason is that it can take years for CAE to raise it's ugly head. If there is any doubt about a herd turning up CAE positive, an owner is hedging their bet by pulling the kids and bottle feeding.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I am sorry flowers, I also miss read your post (CAE- Farms). I took it as you bought from CAE positive farms. The - was over looked. And my comment about sellers wasnt directed at you but at the farms that you were buying from. So that pretty much tainted my entire post  Disregard it.


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## backyardFarming (Jun 13, 2013)

CAE can be devistating when found in your herd. My heart goes out to those that have discovered it in their herd.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

backyardFarming said:


> :distraught: and :angry: I am sorry if this is nor the appropriate forum to explain my situation


? What is your situation? Is it in regards to CAE or is it something different? If it's something different perhaps starting a new thread people will see it better.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Today, I just got the tests results back for our whole herd and am so happy that all have come back negative for CAE and CL. It is a relief but we did buy from disease free herds mostly except for one- our very first Doe, Abelene and am so happy that she also is negative. She was the one that came from an unknown place. I am sorry for some of you who are dealing with CAE as it must be hard. For those just starting out, please make it easier on yourself and the whole goat industry and start with a clean herd. You will not regret it. I don't want my excited relief of having a negative herd be a discouragement for some of you who have possitive CAE goats but instead hope to encourage those who are starting out to buy from good farms or if you have the ability to tests, to do so as soon as you possibly can so as to keep it from spreading so you can manage your CAE situation well. It can be a hard thing to do and fortunately I had someone to help and do the blood draw for us.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Whoo-Hoo Merry!!


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## George (Oct 7, 2013)

Hi, I am from Russia, I have two goats and four babies. I have one very important question. The milk from CAE positiv goats is it dangerous for people, specially for old persons and children?


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Welcome to the group George!
There is no proof that CAE is harmful to humans. I believe many people drink CAE positive raw milk (many without knowing because people don't always test their goats). If you are worried you can heat treat or pasteurize.


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## katie (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm sorry I didn't feel like reading through the whole thing so what are good signs that your doe has CAE and you should be careful.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

You would be best to read though it. Dont wanna be a jerk but a "I didnt feel like it" stance with CAE is pretty much the same as "Oh I dont care." And if you dont care, then there is no reason to even bother. Again, not trying to be a jerk or say you dont care. But its important enough that you should do a full read.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Katie - I agree with Dave. There is no quick summary. If you are concerned about CAE (and IMO every goat owner should be) it's best to do a full read, there is a lot of information. Also, don't go by "signs". Get your goats tested....info on that and reliable testing facilities are also in this thread. This one is far shorter than the CL one and I think that one also should be read through at least once.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I completely agree with both the above.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

katie said:


> I'm sorry I didn't feel like reading through the whole thing so what are good signs that your doe has CAE and you should be careful.


 just get them tested and if you have positive goats you will know and plan accordingly. but you really should read the thread because it is serious and if you dont have it you surely dont want it.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

George said:


> Hi, I am from Russia, I have two goats and four babies. I have one very important question. The milk from CAE positiv goats is it dangerous for people, specially for old persons and children?


well, do you know if your goats have cae? if the goats are positive then heat treat just to be safe.


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## Alk4goats (Oct 7, 2013)

George said:


> Hi, I am from Russia, I have two goats and four babies. I have one very important question. The milk from CAE positiv goats is it dangerous for people, specially for old persons and children?


Dear George, According to Goat Medicine by M. Smith (one of the most respectable veterinary book in the field), and almost every other medical publication I have read there are no known treats to humans from drinking CAE-positive raw milk. In fact, some research claims the opposite for certain groups of people. 
Goathiker on 08-29-2013 has published the link to this article http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg14378.html and there are more similar research available on the net for reading.

It is best though to test your animals and keep doing it for a minimum of three years to make sure they are not infected and no seroconversion is happening.
If your goats are seropositive you can separate them from healthy goats and keep them separately as other posts suggest. You don't have to drink raw milk if you don't feel confident.


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## katie (Dec 3, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> You would be best to read though it. Dont wanna be a jerk but a "I didnt feel like it" stance with CAE is pretty much the same as "Oh I dont care." And if you dont care, then there is no reason to even bother. Again, not trying to be a jerk or say you dont care. But its important enough that you should do a full read.


 Sorry no I don't think your a jerk and I do care but really I only had a few minutes before I had to go somewhere so I didn't have the time and I'm gone a lot but I will come back to it.


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## George (Oct 7, 2013)

Thank you for your answers. I want to buy in USA nubian and boer goats. Can anyone give me websites or email of people who is breeding nubian and boer CAE-negative goats.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

most breeders test for cae, cl, and johnes. there lots of breeders on this forum who can help you out.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

George said:


> Thank you for your answers. I want to buy in USA nubian and boer goats. Can anyone give me websites or email of people who is breeding nubian and boer CAE-negative goats.


You can look up American Goat Association AGA or the American Dairy Goat Association ADGA they would have good ones that are disease free.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Hate to dredge up an old topic, but it makes more sense than starting a new one. I'm trying to collect as much information on CAE as humanly possible for my boss, and there's only a few aspects that still elude me. 

How many cases of false positives occur?
Are there any studies into whether or not positive testing goats are truly positive or just showing immunities to the virus? Less than 20% of all goats with a positive test result show any symptoms, could this be a sign of natural immunity?
Which countries tend to have the highest rate of infection? Sources are conflicting on this one, some say Australia, some say the US, others cite France, Switzerland and Canada as the highest.
Are there any studies that show infection rates by breed rather than type? All current studies still split subjects by type (meat, dairy or fiber) and still show dairy goats as having the highest rate of infection, with meat goats at 10%, fiber at 1-4% and mixed/dual purpose/brush types taking up the rest.
Are there any studies on breeds with known immunities? Bedouin black goats appear to be immune, even when introduced to infected goats. Are there any other types?
Has there been any further research into alternative methods of infection, like semen, saliva or in-vitro? Multiple studies contradict each other on this point.
Has there been any further research into treating the disease via stem cell transplants? Has any other treatment method been looked at?


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

I hope this helps.



TheMixedBag said:


> Hate to dredge up an old topic, but it makes more sense than starting a new one. I'm trying to collect as much information on CAE as humanly possible for my boss, and there's only a few aspects that still elude me.
> 
> How many cases of false positives occur
> 
> ...


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

Oh and one other thing. Many breeders I have talked to say they feel that clean disbudding is real important.

That when some does come into heat and bonk heads and break scurs off and there is a lot of blood that can be ingested this can allow a positive animal to horizontally transmit cae.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Hollow is correct in all aspects of answering your questions. Mixedbag, I think I can read between the lines on them. Seems you looking for a goat breed that is a little more resistant or less likely to get CAE. There isnt one. CAE is a retro virus a lot like the HIV virus. Doing many of the same things in terms of lowering the immune system. No breed of goat is any less likely to contracted if housed/penned with positive animals.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I'm actually just trying to get as much information as possible on CAE for my boss. We're running an export project this year, and the more information, the better. Our hope is to have more than one client exporting goats next year, and the more questions we can answer about the major diseases, the better. CL, Johne's and Brucellosis were fairly easy to track down, but CAE is the one we are most interested in.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Excellent that you are taking a firm stand against it and trying to learn more. Meat or dairy exporting?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here, this is a pretty good run down on the virus. http://www.goatbiology.com/caevirus.html


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Good. Though a little technical


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

we're exporting both, actually. We have all but Oberhaslis and Lamanchas and we have myotonics and a pygmy for the meat breeds.


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## greenfield (Apr 5, 2012)

*Full spectrum test*

Hope I'm staying with the subject enough to ask for sources of full spectrum testing. I am drawing blood myself to save money and haven't found s place to send it to that will test for al diseases. Thanks in advance.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

WADDL will cover all the tests if I'm not wrong. May not be worth it to test for CL, though.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

greenfield said:


> Hope I'm staying with the subject enough to ask for sources of full spectrum testing. I am drawing blood myself to save money and haven't found s place to send it to that will test for al diseases. Thanks in advance.


WADDL test for everything


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## CAjerseychick (Sep 21, 2013)

Well our 7 month old buckling had an abcess so we tested the herd- negative for CL, Johnnes but positive for CAE!

Sooooo,
with the abcess (vet came and cleaned it out really good its pretty much all healed up but still) and the CAE I think we will cull the little guy and the 2 other positive does (they are 1 at the end of may)...
Just hoping the 3 that came back clean are ok (buckling had a bloody head who knows what could have been transmitted)...

Sigh.... such difficult times...
We dont have a means to humanely dispatch them and our vet doesnt deal with carcass removal (we have hard clay soil)...
they are otherwise very healthy...


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Awe, so sorry;( Since he is still young he might have had a false positive, so I would test again in I think it's 6 weeks (not sure, but I read that somewhere) just to make sure... That news is heartbreaking though...


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

You could offer them for sale with full disclosure. There might be other people willing to keep them as pets only.


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## CAjerseychick (Sep 21, 2013)

Thanx guys, 
with the abcess (even though he is negative so far for CL) with the positive for CAE too, I dont want to risk the 3 dairy goats that are negative for everything...

I found a lady who is collecting goats off Craigslist for her acreage (weed eating) and told her they are positive for CAE but asymptomatic but should not be used for breeding. 

I am dropping them off today.
(she has 19 goats, untested and many off Craigslist, like these were)...

I do think she has the means to humanely cull if they do get sick, and will go over this with her, I dont want them to suffer but, I am guessing if you could ask them, they would prefer to live while they can, they are so active and frisky and healthy and its going to be a fine summer....


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Good deal! Glad to hear it.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Cool! Sounds like a perfect home..


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