# Been looking in to my cristal ball



## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

And i see hard times coming for livestock producers. With the introduction of petri dish
grown meats. the public will except this new development because no animals ware killed. Public opinion will turn ageist livestock producers who murder there livestock to eat. This thinking will escalate to the point that we will be demonized And be the point of many violent protest. the price of our products will collapse the social and economic pressure will force us to stop production. 
the end result will be the loss of a way of life and a mass extinction of live stock breeds

Farmer robots will change every thing. there is a day in the not too distant future your fruits and vegetables will be planted watered weeded harvested packaged delivered to your door and cooked with out a human hand touching it. your hand will be the first human to touch your food.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

fivemoremiles said:


> And i see hard times coming for livestock producers. With the introduction of petri dish
> grown meats. the public will except this new development because no animals ware killed. Public opinion will turn ageist livestock producers who murder there livestock to eat. This thinking will escalate to the point that we will be demonized And be the point of many violent protest. the price of our products will collapse the social and economic pressure will force us to stop production.
> the end result will be the loss of a way of life and a mass extinction of live stock breeds
> 
> Farmer robots will change every thing. there is a day in the not too distant future your fruits and vegetables will be planted watered weeded harvested packaged delivered to your door and cooked with out a human hand touching it. your hand will be the first human to touch your food.


Of course it is coming. That is "progress". New technology finds all kinds of markets. No reason to panic, it will evolve slowly same as those driverless tractors and cars.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I most likely will not see these things but my kids will. and i wonder what they will do I guess subdivide


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

None of it is good. There is no way something from a petri dish will be good for you.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I fear you are right. Here the militant vegans have already made laws to protect wild big predators, and the authorities let these feed on wild and tame animals. I only wait for the first report that someone has been killed by a wolf pack. Already, not only sheep, but also dogs, even on the line, have been killed and eaten. In a zoo a person in response for the wolfs was killed inside their fence.

At the same time there is some kind of inofficial war against all rural breeds, those that are adapted to our climate, and to cooperating with their humans.

Yes, I fear you are right. At the same time, we must do something against this way of thinking. Suggestion, someone? (I admit, this is one of the main reasons I came back to the goat spot.)


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

fivemoremiles said:


> I most likely will not see these things but my kids will. and i wonder what they will do I guess subdivide


I will not see it either, I wonder about what it will be like. I sure can't justify worrying about it.
For the future that is now, did we humans, in the past, cause the nutrient imbalance in our soils causing us to need supplemental minerals for our goats?


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Dwarf Dad said:


> For the future that is now, did we humans, in the past, cause the nutrient imbalance in our soils causing us to need supplemental minerals for our goats?


Njaee, I think it is more because our ancestors have bred them for higher production, AND WE FENCE THEM IN.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> Njaee, I think it is more because our ancestors have bred them for higher production, AND WE FENCE THEM IN.


Understood.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

there are a few things we can do to slow down the advancement of petri dish meats.(PDM's)

first we can not let PDM's sneak in to our food chain there must be labeling laws with PDM clearly and largely printed on the package.

second we need to inform the public of what they use to grow PDM's there has to be some thing gross or hazardous to our body in the process. then to prevent live stock extinctions the public needs and understand that to save them you got to eat them.

and last we need to demonize PDM"s like call them mold meat or????

Tyson foods has done so much to hurt livestock producers. by using the worst factory farms and inhuman farming practices. now Tyson is going to kill the farms with PDM's


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

fivemoremiles said:


> there are a few things we can do to slow down the advancement of petri dish meats.(PDM's)
> 
> first we can not let PDM's sneak in to our food chain there must be labeling laws with PDM clearly and largely printed on the package.
> 
> ...


I am not arguing. Where are you getting your information?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I found a little info. It will have to get a little more profitable. Not something I would want, you just never know about future generations.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Even if the content is not exactly harmful to us, I have difficulties in believing that those, what did you call them, petri dish food, is full with good nutrition, with natural vitamins and the whole.

Is "natural" or "ecological" a selling argument in the US now? Here, it has been for a long time.

Then it is the biodiversity, where the old, low producing small farmers' breeds come in. Only enthusiasts breed them here.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It can't be good for us if that does happen. 
No nutritional value there. 
We are going to be fed well, but will starve,with no protein. Besides it is gross. (embarrassed)mg::imok:


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Here there are many different type of radicals. It is the animal rights/vegan/anti-greenhouse gas combination that seems to be concerning @fivemoremiles on this thread. I am not into radicalism in any form, and this is no place to get on soap box.

Until I came on The Goat Spot I was ignorant of a lot of livestock issues. Natural and ecological is huge here and getting bigger.
Caveman style diets are rising in popularity. I forget the name of those. I guess people forget average lifespan back then was late teens?


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Dwarf Dad, I have now read your entry three times, and still fail to understand more than half of it. Get on soap box? Caveman style? Average lifespan back then was late teens ... No, I feel I must ask for help to understand the language!

No haste, it will be all right for me to understand this next year!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Lol. Next year is not that far away.

Get on soap box= shout your political opinions to others. 
Caveman diet= Paleo diet. Eating things prehistoric man ate. I couldn't remember the name.
Prehistoric man did not live long.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Ahaaa! THAT kind of box! Got it! I have only heard of people standing on sugar boxes ... 

But, prehistoric people did not always die young, eh? I have the impression that people in earlier times (and, perhaps, in other cultures) did/do appreciate older peoples' knowledge and experience, like e.g. elephants. Or?

And I think cancer was not at all as common as with us today.


fivemoremiles said:


> This thinking will escalate to the point that we will be demonized


This is already the case here in Sweden. Only wolfs and the like are protected.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> Ahaaa! THAT kind of box! Got it! I have only heard of people standing on sugar boxes ...


(thumbup)



Trollmor said:


> But, prehistoric people did not always die young, eh?


True



Trollmor said:


> And I think cancer was not at all as common as with us today.


I believe the same. Probably most deaths from trauma. My opinion, not backed up by any research.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

when Tyson foods scraps its genetic animal improvement research for PDM's it will not be long before the price will drop enough to make it profitable. 
by the way Tyson scraped its animal research to focus on PDM research two years ago.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Dwarf Dad said:


> Of course it is coming. That is "progress". New technology finds all kinds of markets. No reason to panic, it will evolve slowly same as those driverless tractors and cars.


I guess I was wrong, it's here!mg:
https://www.newsweek.com/lab-grown-meat-coming-america-fda-usda-announce-1221418
http://www.memphismeats.com/


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

What I don’t get is a lot of people who are pro this crap (fake meat) are the same ones preaching that GMOs are terrible and going to kill us all. I am NOT opening a argument for anyone that is for or against GMO here, I fully respect everyone’s educated opinion on the matter, what ever it might be. But it is so sadly obvious that people don’t even take the time to learn what they are or are not supporting. I don’t see how fake anything can be better then the real thing. But of course they saw on TV a abused animal meant for meat so this has got to be better. My question for the ones that want to save all livestock is what do they think will happen to them all if there is not a market for them any more? They will have the same outcome just a wasteful death


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Jessica84 said:


> What I don't get is a lot of people who are pro this crap (fake meat) are the same ones preaching that GMOs are terrible and going to kill us all. I am NOT opening a argument for anyone that is for or against GMO here, I fully respect everyone's educated opinion on the matter, what ever it might be. But it is so sadly obvious that people don't even take the time to learn what they are or are not supporting. I don't see how fake anything can be better then the real thing. But of course they saw on TV a abused animal meant for meat so this has got to be better. My question for the ones that want to save all livestock is what do they think will happen to them all if there is not a market for them any more? They will have the same outcome just a wasteful death


Well put.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Thanks for the link! In spite of a big commercial on top of the text, I could read most of it. "soon be available" - indicates that the writer thinks it is good. Well, I do not! (I guess I am a bad judge for the taste, since I do not very much fancy burgers ...)

"eliminate the need for animals to be bred and slaughtered" these words are used here, too, but only for veganism propaganda.

"agriculture, and meat production in particular, is a major source of greenhouse gas emissions." And as usual not a word about all the flying here and there, and all the road transports of both good and bad goods. How is it, constantly about 4000 aeroplanes in the air at the same time? But not talk about that, blame the cows instead!

In the EU, there is at least a ban against "hormon meat". Is that still common in the US?

Again: Very nice to be able to talk about these things with friends "over there"!


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## SleepingDogRanch (Aug 10, 2018)

I read through everyone's posts and I wanted to add my two-sense into the pile. I agree with everyone's concerns and I want to make a point in saying that while also mentioning that I come from the young generation that is so interested in being vegan and eco-friendly. Where I come from, agriculture is a big part of our community and to see a new industry that is being considered by the FDA (whom we are supposed to trust with regulating what we should and shouldn't eat health-wise), it is disheartening. Another hobby of mine is ancestry, and with living on land that has been in my family for 7 generations (always being used for livestock), I can't help but wonder what my ancestors would think about meat being grown in a dish-like container instead of being harvested off of the animals they raise, in the sun, with grain and minerals. Like others have mentioned before, these meat "products" grown in a petri-dish can NOT be healthy for humans or other animals to consume. I don't know if any of you have ever grown anything in a petri-dish (I've only grown bacteria and fungi in my biology classes) but I can't imagine any way that "product" would get any vitamins or natural energy that we already get from real animals. 
Also this has probably nothing to do with the subject, but I just wanted to add (because it was slightly mentioned) there are about 11 crops approved by the FDA that are considered GMO's and I think 3 of them are not things we eat. And I don't know where the bashing on Tyson came from, but we have a Tyson plant near my college and it stinks all the time so... yeah!! Lol, sorry for the rant.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I do not know where @fivemoremiles got the information in his post. I do know the web site for Memphis Meats in SF Bay Area (San Francisco, California Trollmor) has Tyson Foods listed as one of it's investors. www.memphismeats.com


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I got the information from a livestock convention 3 years ago
the information i am getting is you will find ground meat paddies in your local grocery soon. 
they say that the texture is wrong for sliced meets.
It is here NOW


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

(Some vegan people claim that humans are not meant to eat meat, looking at our teeth. I say, we have a fairly short intestine, like cats, who are real meat eaters. And, for sure, a vegan must daily add artificial Vitamin B12, or he/she will get really sick. Ethical? Possible. Natural? No!)


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

fivemoremiles said:


> I got the information from a livestock convention 3 years ago
> the information i am getting is you will find ground meat paddies in your local grocery soon.
> they say that the texture is wrong for sliced meets.
> It is here NOW


Yes, I found it. Something to avoid for sure. How to convince people to not buy it?


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Dwarf Dad said:


> Yes, I found it. Something to avoid for sure. How to convince people to not buy it?


How about trying to show me a photo of the abhominality?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> (Some vegan people claim that humans are not meant to eat meat, looking at our teeth. I say, we have a fairly short intestine, like cats, who are real meat eaters. And, for sure, a vegan must daily add artificial Vitamin B12, or he/she will get really sick. Ethical? Possible. Natural? No!)


Humans have carnivore cutting teeth AND herbivore grinding teeth. Humans are omnivores not herbivores. Safe to guess none of the people claiming our teeth structure means we were meant to eat plant based nutrition are dentists. The thought of eating meat grown in a dish is disturbing. Cutting down on production cost for larger net profit using this method seems misguided. Will grow and butcher my own on a larger scale than eat artificial meat.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

AND plant my own vegetables! Both activities are under press here in Sweden/EU.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

I plant my own vegetables as well. I hunt and fish for wild game. I tried raising chickens, had a deal worked out with someone to dispatch them for me in exchange for a chicken or two for his family table. My trouble is getting too fond of my livestock and having to overlook the fact I would be eating a creature that unfortunately had been given a name.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> How about trying to show me a photo of the abhominality?


I googled "cultured meat".


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

NigerianNewbie said:


> I plant my own vegetables as well. I hunt and fish for wild game. I tried raising chickens, had a deal worked out with someone to dispatch them for me in exchange for a chicken or two for his family table. My trouble is getting too fond of my livestock and having to overlook the fact I would be eating a creature that unfortunately had been given a name.


My wife has the same problem. Her rule is"if we have raised one, we don't eat them".
Must be why she does not want chickens. She has never eaten goat, never raised deer or cows. Squirrel and rabbit got erased from menu decades ago. I don't know what we will do about ham, bacon and sausage since we now have Jimmy Dean, Andouille(proounced ahn-dew-ee) and Bacon.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Ok, thanks, Dwarf Dad! I wonder, how do they get the "bloody" colour ... Root beat juice, or real blood from the same stem cells?

Personally, I would really prefer a nice soya beef, or a helping of traditional pea soup, rather than that artificial stuff ...

If an egg, a little piece of rabbit meat or of nice fish is not available for protein! And I for my part certainly prefer to know the personal name of the meat on my plate! Then I KNOW that it has had a good life, and a good death. But we are different in this respect.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

You're welcome.
Yes knowing where it came from is much better!
I am not too keen on soy or pea soup. Chicken and pork are my favorites, fish seems to be an iffy item with all of the water pollution.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Thank you @Trollmor for sharing your view of the benefits towards growing your own and knowing where and from what conditions it's life cycle evolved. Being a mother and seeing my son vomit his meal because he couldn't stand thinking he may have eaten his missing favorite chicken had soured my intentions towards eating livestock. Looking at it from your point of view has been very helpful and an enlightenment.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

If I don't name it, I can eat it! The trick is not naming those big eyed calves or cute little oinkers! DH enjoys hunting, so we have lots of venison. I don't have time to hunt anymore. (I don't enjoy killing, but have no trouble gutting and eating the critter). 

No thanks on fake meat. Like the old tv show "Alf" he said ," Vegetables are not food, vegetables are what food eats!"


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh, sorry, Dwarf Dad, I was mainly thinking of the fish I plan to have in a pool ... (blush) And I certainly thought of better alternatives than petri dish "meat" IF real meat is not available.

As for pea soup, I for sure prefer the variant WITH porc!  Maybe your american variant is not as tasty as our "military" sort. It is well spiced, with pieces of porc, and so thick it almost stands by itself. Jumm!

Thank you NigerianNewbie for sharing your experiences! I guess we may agree that it is very, very important to TALK with the children before doing "new" things. They don't have to always agree, but to be informed and have had a chance to express their thoughts and feelings.

Children or animals, I prefer to talk WITH them rather than TO them!   :inlove:

To gut a dead animal, THANKS for the word!  Me too, I certainly do not enjoy killing, but it is necessary to keep the flock members healthy. The gutting, skinning and parting I do like, though. Feel a little like Ayla, of whom some of you might have read.

Hm, Alf, I disagree: Vegetables are food all right, but for a human to eat only vegs, well, please add some nice animal protein on my plate! Add, not replace! And, for sure, the amount of meat most people eat in the Western World, is way too much!

AND NO THANKS TO FAKE WHATEVER-IT-MIGHT-BE!!!


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

My grand daughter got to name one of the pigs her family was razing for the freezer. she called her pig Ice Cream. the day they took Ice Cream to the butcher was a hard day. About a month later Papa and Nana was having dinner with the grand kids. and my grand daughter asked are we having Ice Cream for dinner. yes we were. and she replied I love Ice Cream he is so good.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Yes, me and many of my young friends agree! But I do understand also, when a friendly person sees on the TV the criminal behaviour in the big slaughter houses, that they decide not to patronize that industry. It is easy to respect that.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> Yes, me and many of my young friends agree! But I do understand also, when a friendly person sees on the TV the criminal behaviour in the big slaughter houses, that they decide not to patronize that industry. It is easy to respect that.


Isn't that the reason for kosher foods? I know a lot of people don't know about this.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Dwarf Dad said:


> Isn't that the reason for kosher foods? I know a lot of people don't know about this.


Kosher means to cut off the throat without first stunning the animal. The poor animal is put into a small cage, which with big noise turns upside down, whereafter the throat is being cut without any stunning. This is awful! Halal (for Muslims) is often the same, though a Muslim CAN accept stunning, an Orthodox Jew not.

But maybe you think of something totally different than I understand? That happens easily! Concerning big industrial slaughter houses, the problem is that as soon as killing is made into industry, the animals do suffer. Even "Christian" slaughter houses usually use - what was the word again - electric urgers? - and there is never time to talk friendly to the animals.

Ugh! Criminal behaviour! Uff!!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> Kosher means to cut off the throat without first stunning the animal. The poor animal is put into a small cage, which with big noise turns upside down, whereafter the throat is being cut without any stunning. This is awful! Halal (for Muslims) is often the same, though a Muslim CAN accept stunning, an Orthodox Jew not.
> 
> But maybe you think of something totally different than I understand? That happens easily! Concerning big industrial slaughter houses, the problem is that as soon as killing is made into industry, the animals do suffer. Even "Christian" slaughter houses usually use - what was the word again - electric urgers? - and there is never time to talk friendly to the animals.
> 
> Ugh! Criminal behaviour! Uff!!


I understand. I did not know of the turning upside down. I googled kosher and came up with the biblical quotes and the rituals that are prescribed. I have no idea how locals interpret the "laws" of being kosher.
The main rule is to dispatch the animal without it knowing any pain or distress.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Dwarf Dad said:


> I understand. I did not know of the turning upside down. I googled kosher and came up with the biblical quotes and the rituals that are prescribed. I have no idea how locals interpret the "laws" of being kosher.
> The main rule is to *dispatch the animal without it knowing any pain or distress*.


Exactly! In the times of the holy books being written, they did not have any better than a very sharp knife, but now we have guns, humane killers, and other tools.

The upside down is, I think, prescribed somewhere in the Talmud or what it is called. In those times, I guess they tied the legs of the animal, to be able to fix it in that alarming position. (A cow, horse, goat, etc, cannot breath if lying on its back, besides that being tied and forced of course is extremely frightening.) But in today's slaughter houses, time is an important thing, so there is much noise also.

Pigs can never be kosher or halal, but they are "stunned" with carbon dioxide instead, which is the same as to let them suffocate, also in a very noisy place. The box is going down to the carbon dioxide (which is heavier than air), and the staff does not see or hear the pigs down there. "Luckily", the money owners think, "or else they would no doubt protest, and film, and publish, and we would have to change the method."

And the Jews eat only the front half of an animal, because of Jacob's lame hip, so the back parts of all those animals is sold to us usual consumers - without labelling!!! 

In addition, too many slaughter houses find it "expensive" to have two different methods to slaughter animals. Cheaper to have but one! Guess which...

And me, I try my best to make the animal-to-die as HAPPY as possible its last minutes and seconds in life - and then I have to listen to "all-knowing" vegans saying "There is no way to slaughter humanely!"(headsmash)


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

By the way, when it comes to climate friendly food, I doubt anything could beat rabbits in nordic climates.


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