# Hermaphrodite????



## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

So this topic has been brought up a bunch of times- and I have been to the websites with pictures- but I wanted to get your opinions...

Okay- background info

We bought this doe bred as a yearling- she was supposed to be due in July- but due date came and went.. no kids
So we lutalysed her hoping to be able to at least get fall kids out of her as a two year old, well the lutalyse didnt really bring on a strong heat cycle and she didnt get bred- no big deal there since none of them that I tried to get bred for fall took with the lutalyse.

So she came into heat early- a good heat- and was bred for Feb kids, I was really happy that her 21 day mark came and went with no signs of heat, I thought we finally got her bred....well at around 29 days, she went into a crazy screaming yelling standing at the fence flagging heat....ugh so we bred her again! (mind you we tried breeding her to at least 3 different bucks...so the buck isnt the issue)

We are at 30 days TODAY and I pulled her out to draw blood to send off to see if we finally got her to take....and while she was up on the stand I looked at her vulva and it really caught my attention, I cant believe I never noticed it before actually......

what do you think?? sorry the pics are so crappy- they were from my cell phone


















Never noticed any buck like behavior- maybe when she is in a full heat- but they all do that.....

I will be pretty dissapointed if this doe is a he-she, but Im leaning towards the idea now


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## jesse300 (Oct 28, 2009)

It looks like she could have a bit he already in her.



If you have twin’s one boy and one girl will there likely be a hermaphrodite?

With my cattle heard there was a huge chance of the girl being sterile. I have automatically been assuming that any set of split sex twins were both headed for freezer camp. Well I run a large freezer camp operation any way so it dose not take to get on that list.


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

No- there isnt really an issue with free-martins in goats- they can have 2-3-4-5 even 6 kids, very rarely do you ever see an issue with sterility

This would be my first case out of....wow lots and lots of goats...

I guess friday could be the answer when I get the preg test back :sigh:


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## jesse300 (Oct 28, 2009)

You could try the willow stick or swing a chain. But yes the blood test is the best. 

Yes I was trying to think of free martins but could not think of it. I have sent a bunch of goats that would have had a good chance of becoming replacements to the freezer.


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

anyone else think she looks eerily similar to the pictures on this website http://www.goatwisdom.com/ch8diseases/h ... itism.html


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## kids-n-peeps (Aug 24, 2009)

As a newbie, I have no firsthand knowledge . . . but the picture you posted does seem similar to the link, with your doe's enlargement below the vulva perhaps being even larger or maybe the angle of your picture just makes it more obvious :shrug: Have you gone so far as to look for the bulb-like object they mentioned?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

no goats can have mixed gender kids and they will not be sterile 

Proctor Hill -- your doe since she did come into heat I am leaning towards her not being a Hermaphrodite but I havent studied this indepth so maybe they can still come into heat even if they are a Hermaphrodite


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## goatnoob (Nov 1, 2009)

wow I'm new to raising goats but I know quite a bit about them but I have never heard of a goat hermaphrodite before! :?


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

Feel where her udder is and see if there are any hard knots that may be testes. You may also need to open the vulva a bit to see if there is a penis just inside. IF you find any of these you have your answer. Sometimes you can do an internal check to see if there is a cervix or a closed off wall. The cervix would be like a donut with a closed hole in the middle.


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## Shelly Borg (Nov 2, 2009)

My hermaphro looks a bit like that. Mine is a little more "out there". One of the bigest thing we see is her teets. She just has tiny wether size ones. No where near the other girls size at the same age. 
I will tell you she is my best goat. She is being trained for packing and cart and she also let's me know when the other girls are in heat with out the blubbering and peeing of a buck. She smells better to and gives great kisses!


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## mnspinner (Aug 13, 2008)

I've never seen a hermy in person so can't comment except your photos do appear to show some irregularity. 
Were either of the parents polled? Sometimes you can get a herm even from a horned/polled combo.


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

As far as I know both of her parents were horned- and she herself is/was definatley horned

I wasnt able to really see anything "inside" though I wasnt able to get a very good look with her jumping around on me! 
Her teats are HUGE, so I dont think there is an issue there.
I will have to feel around down there and see if I feel anything that shouldnt be there.

I cant really imagine she is a hermy- maybe only because I have never had to deal with it. But something is up with her I think.

Also- since the day we brought her home, she has had a constant clear discharge, it almost looks like water, and she sort of drips. I havent been able to put my finger on what it is....its not like a sticky gooey discharge and its definately not urine.... :scratch:


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## Shelly Borg (Nov 2, 2009)

If you can take her to a good goat vet.


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## goatshows (Oct 5, 2007)

If you know anyone that does AI they can tell if she is able to be bred ( if she is not a hermaphidite(sp)

They have equipment to see if there is a cervix or if it just drops off.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I didn't get my pics up of this Alpine girl of mine, like I promised. I'm almost sure she's a he/she. So, I'll put the pics I just got up here and we can compare.



















Hope you can tell from these, I might have her tail "shadow" in the way.

BTW, that's not a "bean" stuck in there, sometimes "it's" inside and sometimes it's out enough that you can see "it". Note the bulgy area.

Proctorhill, compared to my girl, yours looks pretty normal to me.


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Thanks for the pictures Di!! wow how odd! 

I will know the pregnancy results tonight- fingers crossed.

Ive talked to some other folks who are good at pooch testing- and think her enlargement is due to her being bred- which would make sense since i never noticed her vulva looking like this before that I can recall.

I will let everyone know! ray:


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Well Squirt is not bred......4 breedings none of them taking........what do I do with her now :sigh:


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Any way her breeder will offer a replacement? Most breeders do that. . . 

Find a good home for her as a pet w/o papers?


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

We have been in touch with her old owners (her breeders sold out a few years ago to the farm that we got her from) and they are willing to work with us- but we would be responsible for transport which stinks....I dont really want to have to shell out anymore money after all of this especially since we bought her "bred"......does that make sense?

I think they are also wanting us to try dosing her with cysterellin first before replacing her- can a 2 year old maiden doe be cystic anyway?

I think either way she has to go- I dont really have room for this type of breeding trouble.

A pet home is definately in her cards- sooner than later, Ive sat on her too long already.
I have also thought about just throwing her in the buck pen for the winter...but on the off chance she actually did get bred, I would have to dna test 6 different bucks to find out who the daddy :ROFL:


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

You could always just sell the kids as pets.


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Now this is true :thumbup: - maybe I will throw her to the boys tomorrow. Im sure they would be thrilled- her, maybe not so much


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

ProctorHillFarm said:


> Im sure they would be thrilled- her, maybe not so much


 :ROFL: :slapfloor: :ROFL: :slapfloor:


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I put my doe in with the bucks because she was jumping on the other does in heat. It was very strange, they totally ignored her, and she just looked at them like..."what?" Sorry you are having a hard time...I don't actually own my "girl"...so I don't have any loss on the deal, and they pay for her keep.


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## Graffogefarms (Oct 11, 2007)

Hi - with Gypsy - everything looked normal on the outside - but earlier this year I brought her and big girl to vet to get sponged. Sponge went in fine with big girl, but Gypsy's "tubes" don't go the whole way. So you really can't always tell from the outside. All being well, getting big girl scanned the end of the month. Though I might post a pic of her pooch to get guesses?


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Oh please, put up pics of your girl. And, pardon my ingorance, what does "sponged" mean?


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## Graffogefarms (Oct 11, 2007)

It means putting a medicated sponge in the vagina which you leave for about 2 weeks, and at the end of which - take it out, inject with pregnant mare serum, and she should come into season. It would not go into Gypsy - but it did with big girl. There are probably pics of big girl somewhere on the site here - probably in harness. and of Gypsy


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## RowdyKidz (Apr 2, 2009)

PHF - Have you worked anything out? Or are you going to keep her in with all you boys? 

Hope she settles!! :thumbup:


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## goatnoob (Nov 1, 2009)

Yah, has anything happened? I really want to know what the outcome of this was!


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

She came back open :sigh: 

but she hasnt shown any signs of heat either- so maybe the results could be wrong.

Who knows- I dont know what to do with her.

Her old owners are giving us a relatively difficult time in regards to a replacement....our next step is to leave her in with a buck for 45 days- and if she isn't bred after that, they will be satisfied that there actually is a problem....
So she is in with a buck, if she is open in 45 days, they will exchange the goat- but they dont really have anything for sale right now that I am interested in, plus, I would have to pay for shipping to get it here, which is something Im not really interested in putting out after all of this....

So I just dont know


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

i'm thinking she could have cystic ovaries or something up in that department that isn't allowing the eggs to develop fully or something.. she's def NOT a hermie


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

If she were cystic- she should be cycling something like every 5 days- if anything she has very long cycles (30 days) :shrug:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well give her the time with the bucks and then you will know either way.

If it comes down that she doesnt get pregnant then I would just cut my losses and sell her as pet


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

I know- its a bummer though- I loved her pedigree and thought she could be great. 

Even more frustrating to buy a bred doe and have her end up not even being able to GET bred ya know! :hair:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well if you paid for a bred doe then they should give you some of your money back


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

ProctorHillFarm said:


> If she were cystic- she should be cycling something like every 5 days- if anything she has very long cycles (30 days) :shrug:


 i dunno.. its gotta be something up in that department of th eovaries/ maybe even hormones


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Yeah we have tried breeding her with the use of lutalyse (which has worked for me on harder to settle does before) and also just let her cycle naturally


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

look at it this way -- some people can get pregnant even with hormones and such..... why cant goats be that way too? 

Just because they are animals doesnt mean they have to function all the same way. :shrug:


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

yea stacey.. that's what i've been thinking.. my mom was a surrogate mother for awhile there and some of the clients had the strangest issues as to why they couldn't have kids..


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

I definately agree with you there!

My problem lies with convincing the people who sold her to us that we cant get her bred (due to a genetic or physiological reason and not a management problem...okay if it were a management problem why would the rest of my herd be settling fine? She is THE ONLY one I have EVER had an issue with like this)
They say their vet says that he could get her bred in 45 days without the use of meds or homones. How could a vet say that about a doe he hasnt ever even examined, and if he can get her bred in 45 days without meds/hormones, than what have I been doing wrong for the past 8/9 months! :angry: 

Anyway.....they will swap her, but I would have to drive back down to MD to do the swap, and they don't really have anything for sale I'm interested in enough to make the drive....So back to sell her as a pet and cut my BIG loss....


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## Shelly Borg (Nov 2, 2009)

Can you do the swap. Get the best swap you can get. Then sell the animal you swaped for. Then you would be looking at better then pet price. May be get some of your money back.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

It took me something like 8 months to get a doe bred once, so I would give her more time. I've also used lute on several does at varying dosages and I have only had it bring a doe into heat once and she didn't take on that breeding. 

If it were me I would leave her in with the bucks for 30 or so days, if she dosen't take then I would consider her infertile and sell her as a pet.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I'd get the name of the vet and call him and verify that he said that...he won't appreciate it if they are just flipping his name around like that...everyone knows that is a bogus claim. Maybe we could get some kind of "replacement goat railroad" together to transport the replacement goat! They should give you a refund, I wouldn't let them get away with selling a "bred goat" that isn't bred and can't get pregnant. Tell them we want to know who they are so we don't get stuck in the same way, you'd be doing a public service, the rest of us need to be protected from unscrupulous breeders (lol).


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I think Di is right -- they due owe you some money back for the doe not being bred (unless you didnt pay a bred doe price) and they should be more willing to work with you.

I know only of a few farms in MD .... 

as to the Vet ... I would see if he will claim to you what they claim he said to them..... its your right to know


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Funny you should all say that- because I emailed back and asked for the name of the vet so I could speak to them, or have my vet to speak to them, and they weren't willing to share that information! In fact- it wasnt addressed at all, just skirted around.

They have offered to do the swap back and feel they are going above and beyond to offer to do so, and I am allowed to pick any goat on their sales list (again they say they are going above and beyond) and I can choose to have her bred- but they are limiting the bucks I am allowed to choose from (the three best ones they have!) Arg!

Again they feel they are going above and beyond by offering to breed the doe, well I said I would only expect to get a bred doe in exchange for a doe I bought that was supposed to be bred, you know?

But they dont see it that way and feel they are doing ME the favor.

Really frustrating- the whole situation!

Anyway- I dont want to spread their name around since they are just abiding by the policies they have listed on their site, I guess either way its just a lose (time) lose (money) for me, and thats whats frustrating.

I've really liked these breeders and its a shame this situation seems to be ruining the friendship there, but I was just really put off by the last email I got (the one with the "vets statements") Basically saying that Im the idiot that cant get this doe bred.
Some of what that email contained was just ludicriss (which supposedly was all the vets opinion)- and I sort of have to laugh at it all now, since i shared it with my vet and some other good breeder friends who also got a good laugh and a good rant from it. They are watching the situation closely and are prepared to put out a buyer beware if need be. :slapfloor: 

OH WELL is all I can say- I finally thought what the heck I will just make the drive down- turnaround and drive home, but my husband is not happy with that idea, plus he doesn't want anything that they have for sale right now, especially if we cant have her bred to the buck of our choice. (i.e. our top choices would be the ones they are excluding use from....)

I have until the 30th to decide what I want to do....darn goat....


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## mnspinner (Aug 13, 2008)

If I were the breeder I think I would ask for a vet check/opinion. An ultrasound would tell a lot about the reproductive structures.
But for sure you are at least owed the extra fee you paid for breeding. 
That is an absurd statement supposedly from their vet about being able to get a doe bred. Goats can be sterile/infertile. I had one years ago.
Once you get the vet report then you have something credentials-wise to bring back to the breeder.
At that point I would most happily give a full refund or replacement goat of equal value.
Maybe she will surprise you and take over the next cyle!


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## Mully (Jun 23, 2009)

Don't know what it cost you to drive from MA to MD but the cost of the round trip especially since you can not get a good replacement it might be better to 1 ...keep the goat awhile and see what happens or 2 ... sell as a pet and move on. Sorry this happen to you !!


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

You would have better ground to stand on if you had a vet come out and examine her. Then you could send the breeder a certified letter with the vet's statement that she is indeed infertile and go from there.


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## Glover Farm (May 14, 2009)

I was wondering what happend with the doe? Where you able to get her bred?


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

No - she has not settled as of yet- I just ultrasounded her the other week too, because bio tracking showed her open, but she has not cycled since October 1 (the last time she was bred) so I was hoping maybe bio tracking was wrong, but the ultrasound showed no babes either... :sigh:


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

maybe she took a false pregnancy??


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Could be- but I would have expected to see fluid or something on the ultrasound, no? :scratch:


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## jenparrish24 (Nov 24, 2009)

I have a doeling born to a twin doe last year, She has a vulva that kind of looks like the very first pics on here, but she comes into heat has cycles with discharge, and never tries to ride other goats. I do have a few does that come in together and they ride each other, but that to me is normal. Her twin sister is normal and shows to be bred after he heat cycle 3 weeks ago, no other sgns of coming back in, but I am worried about ths doe. I think she might be a Hermaphrodite, but i am not sure

The Doeling i am talking about was put in with my buck a day after her last heat to catch her this heat for breeding, but she seems to have longer days between cycles than normal, but usually comes back in with in 3-4 weeks. I havent seen her come back in heat yet, so I am not sure. What do i do? Do i just wait to see if she comes in and is bred and sticks or ???


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

yah some young does dont always take on the first try. Just give her a chance before assumign the worse.


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