# Selenium Deficiency Symptoms



## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

I'm wondering if there is a thread here on TGS, or some other resource, which lists- and pictures, when possible- all the different symptoms and signs of selenium deficiency? Or if we can create one? It manifests in so many different forms that I want to be able to recognize it wherever it might crop up!

I'm also looking for similar info on copper and zinc, if anybody can direct me; open to others, also!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I don't think there is one good thread with everything on it.


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

OK so I'm not just blind?? (or inept with the search feature? Totally possible btw). Can we create one then? I really want to be familiar with the more minor signs, so I don't get familiar with the more extreme ones.

Here's the link to the USGS Selenium Map:
https://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/se/usa.html


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

The bigger minor signs are tails turning down, rough coats, and weak pasterns. Then there is retained placenta, weak kids (weak legs, little sucking reflex, just weak in general, etc). Probably a lot more that I'm missing.


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

That tails turning down description... perhaps I'm just very visual, but that one has me stumped. Anyone out there have or can find a picture of what that looks like?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I've found lots of pics, give me a minute. Another sign is a really tough amniotic sac. I had one I had to use my teeth on. And really tough cords. Retained placentas. Weak legs. Malformed legs. When I see my tails being weak, I start shoving in the selenium.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Here is my quick search of Selenium Tails, just to get you started. I'm sorry, Kath. I forgot you had asked me about this some days ago, and I promised I'd get back to you.

https://www.thegoatspot.net/search/57073/?q=selenium+tails&o=date


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Kath G. said:


> That tails turning down description... perhaps I'm just very visual, but that one has me stumped. Anyone out there have or can find a picture of what that looks like?


My wether has the tail turning down issue currently. I'll get a photo of him today and post it.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I swear the more I have Goats the more I realize how many things are screwed with when it comes to selenium! 
Pretty much text book signs Suzanne covered. A doe not settling when bred or carrying to term can be another one but there is also about 100 other things that can cause that as well.
Other things is thick amnionic sack as well. Last year someone was having issue with kids with their heads turned back. I had that one year and that was the year I ditched the grain and over night that issue stopped so that may not be always selenium. Last year I had kids that cords were breaking close to their stomach. One doe when her water broke all this odd yellow balls came out and finally someone helped me and said it was a hole in the cord. After looking into it selenium deficiency can cause weak cords.
Copper the signs are mainly rough coat and the biggest sign is fish tails and a copper color to a black doe. With one doe I learned that copper deficiency will cause a uterus to be thin. I had a doe that tore her uterus and the vet couldn't even sew it up it was pulling right threw and shredding it worse. That was the day I took copper super serious!
Zinc I honestly haven't had to deal with that (knock on wood!) Mariarose I believe is pretty knowledgeable on it so I just won't even attempt that one.
Here is a really cool place that lists signs of deficiency as well as toxicity. It does sell the minerals but if you click on each one and go down you can see what is listed
https://www.abcplus.biz/categories21.aspx?Id=Sheep_Goat_Products


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

cool thred! I have a few pics... selenium, week pasterns...copper, bad color on a black doe (not mine)... I know there is more symptoms but these are the only ones I got a pic of... I gave the Boer selenium and her legs stood back up realy nicely


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

And I forgot to get that photo 

Here's one of a kid I had born with weak rear legs.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Ok, after some digging I found a photo of a doe with her tail turning down


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Interesting topic for sure. Selenium can be tricky IMO. What works for some doesn't work for everyone, etc. I've heard people say they have overdosed on Bo-Se, and that made me scared. We use Bo-Se 2x a year. For does/bucks before breeding and after kidding. But we give the selenium e gel for goats 4 weeks before doe is due, and usually 3 months or so after giving Bo-Se. I won't give a pregnant doe Bo-Se as we had a doe abort 2 days after getting it when she was about 3 weeks from delivering. I feel safer giving the gel. Personal preference.

I thought we had selenium issues over the summer as well as copper issues. It's so frustrating at time to know exactly what they need. You put out minerals, protein/mineral tubs, and use a feed with decent mineral pack, and still end up with them needing something. Oh Goats.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Yep...my buck is scary with copper and zinc. He tends to need large amounts of both. Scares me to give him too much!


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

Yes, all of these minerals have a "middle road" where the goats operate well. Too much= toxic, possible death. Too little= really bad, possible death. Things get really tricky with the interactions between them; e.g. iron interferes with copper, copper interferes with zinc. I intend on starting separate threads for zinc and copper to try to corral all the info on each in one place. I'd love to have a comprehensive list *with pictures* when possible to study.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Kath G. said:


> Yes, all of these minerals have a "middle road" where the goats operate well. Too much= toxic, possible death. Too little= really bad, possible death. Things get really tricky with the interactions between them; e.g. iron interferes with copper, copper interferes with zinc. I intend on starting separate threads for zinc and copper to try to corral all the info on each in one place. I'd love to have a comprehensive list *with pictures* when possible to study.


I really wish there were a fool proof way to know the levels besides necropsy!


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

Actually, some places are able to do a blood panel... though it's not cheap. And there's a $10 accession fee. And they want the samples sent in by a vet. . 
You can have a single mineral tested for but the full panel is like $2 more. I don't know if another place might offer this, but I know at least this is available through U. W. Madison Vet Diagnostic Lab, https://custportal.wvdl.wisc.edu/testFeeList.jsp

Accessed 1/6/18 8:17 pm

Test Detail
*Name/Description* ELEMENT PANEL BY ICP/MS DIRECT DILUTION (FLUIDS)
*Test Code* ELEMPNL-DD
*Keywords* ELEMENTPNL, ELEMENT PANEL ICP MS, FLUIDS METAL, FLUIDS, PANEL: ARSENIC, BORON, CADMIUM, CALCIUM, FLUIDS, PANEL: CALCIUM, CHROMIUM, COBALT, FLUIDS, PANEL: COPPER, IRON, LEAD, MAGNESIUM, FLUIDS, PANEL: MANGANESE, MOLYBDENUM, NICKEL, FLUIDS, PANEL: PHOSPHORUS, POTASSIUM, FLUIDS, PANEL: SELENIUM, SODIUM, ZINC
*Species* 
*Availability* As needed. Results in 2-3 days after being received by the lab.
*Information* Fluids Element Panel (Nutrition Panel) - Includes the following metals and minerals: Arsenic, Cobalt, Copper, Iron, Lead, Manganese, Molybdenum, Selenium, and Zinc. For elements that are not listed please indicate that you would like them analyzed on the Submission Form. Updated 6/10/2016 DB

Please refer to our Submission Guide for Elements in Fluids updated 9/18/2014 DB
*Locations* MADISON | Section: TOXICOLOGY
*Method* ICP MASS SPEC
*Specimen* Fluids (e.g., blood, serum, other)
*Storage* Refrigerate, ship with cold packs
*Turn Around* 
*Price (in state)* $24.96
*Price (out of state)* $37.44


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Actually, I just emailed my vet so i'm hoping they can do it for me. One good thing is we are close to Cornell..


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

Aha! Silly me, I should've looked around at Cornell. $50.40 each plus a referral fee for the full panel but nice & complete. (*Description:* Test to check for mineral composition in serum or blood. Includes Se, Cu, Co, Zn, Fe, Mo, Mn.)


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I would love to do them all but if I can get one done it gives me a ball park


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I have always read that blood panels are very unreliable for minerals though! And that liver biopsy was the only way to go... I wonder how revealing a blood panel is.



NyGoatMom said:


> Yep...my buck is scary with copper and zinc. He tends to need large amounts of both. Scares me to give him too much!


Okay so how much scary amount of copper have you given your buck in, say, the past year? I have one older doe who has lived here a long time with our well water with iron. I swear I have to pump more and more in to her. I am giving her 12 grams of copper bolus at a time and she SEEMS like she needs it 4 times per year,


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

SalteyLove said:


> I have always read that blood panels are very unreliable for minerals though! And that liver biopsy was the only way to go... I wonder how revealing a blood panel is.


Huh. That stinks... hate to throw money away if that's the case, I was considering doing one for one of my does on my vet's suggestion when I had asked her for what was available for testing selenium levels before administering replamin plus. Do you remember where that was, or can you point me in that direction? Ugh...


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm going to look for a source on the blood versus liver but meanwhile here is the thread i had several years ago when we had the liver analysis done: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/lab-for-liver-analysis-to-determine-mineral-levels.179442/


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Here are two good reads - sounds like although liver biopsy is best, especially for copper, the blood panel can be a valuable tool. There are serum analysis and whole blood analysis.

http://articles.extension.org/pages...-of-diagnosing-mineral-deficiencies-in-cattle

https://animalhealth.msu.edu/sections/nutrition/faq.php

Interesting note in that first link that normal red top blood tubes will give you false zinc readings.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

SalteyLove said:


> I have always read that blood panels are very unreliable for minerals though! And that liver biopsy was the only way to go... I wonder how revealing a blood panel is.
> 
> Okay so how much scary amount of copper have you given your buck in, say, the past year? I have one older doe who has lived here a long time with our well water with iron. I swear I have to pump more and more in to her. I am giving her 12 grams of copper bolus at a time and she SEEMS like she needs it 4 times per year,


That's what he gets...three 4 g boluses three times a year. PLUS Replamin Plus gel once a month AND loose minerals he devours in spurts. And now he's getting 1/4 tsp Zinpro daily for hair loss around his eyes ( he had serious zinc deficiency when i got him and had seriously flaky skin...that has not returned but the "glasses" are starting to so he is back on Zinpro)
Maybe the panels have improved in accuracy? I mean they test ours that way!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Super good reads...I'm anxious to hear from my vet and see what she says.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Oh, and Katey, how do you store the liver for testing? How large of a sample is needed? This will be an option for me next fall when I process the meat goats.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

NyGoatMom said:


> Oh, and Katey, how do you store the liver for testing? How large of a sample is needed? This will be an option for me next fall when I process the meat goats.


Ahh you are testing my memory but I believe it was 3 ounces, frozen.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I'll let you guys know what my vet says.
Here is her bio...
Dr. Ranatta Young grew up on a small registered Ayrshire dairy and commercial sheep farm in Central Ohio. She was actively involved in showing dairy cattle and rabbits in 4-H throughout school. She attended Cornell University with a major in Animal Science and was in the Dairy Fellows program. After college, Ranatta worked as a herdsman on a large dairy in Central New York. She graduated from Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine in 2014 and is excited to start her career at Battenkill Veterinary Bovine!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

hi! i know this is an old thread but instead of using Bo-Se is it possible to use a selenium gel? i saw some at my local feed store


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Bo-Se is fast acting, and you don't need much of it. The selenium/vitamin E gel is slower acting and you need more of it. Apparently the Bo-Se is easier to overdose. I don't know.

I have moved away from using the selenium gel and into using Replamin Gel Plus. But there is nothing wrong with the selenium gel. You just have to stay on top of the need for it because you can't use the gel to instantly correct for it.

If I'm confusing, tell me and I'll try again.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

thank you that helped


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

so i gave them the selenium/vitamin E gel this morning and will give it again in 30 days. they liked it alot. Cricket was practically BEGGING for more lol.
as for the replamin plus gel, does that stuff work better? I'm planning on giving the newborn kids the selenium/vitamin E paste, and the adults the replamin plus gel, but i got the other stuff today.... and gave it to them


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> i got the other stuff today.... and gave it to them


This part is unclear to me. Which is "the other stuff"?

Yes, I think Replamin Gel Plus works better than the selenium/vitamin E gel overall. I regard it as superior. But I think both are good products.

I use the Replamin, and if later I feel like even more selenium is needed, then I use the selenium gel.

I was stupid once and lost a kid because I used the applicator, instead of placing the dose in his mouth with my more sensitive finger. He breathed it into his lungs and I could not clear it out. It was a drawn out, agonizing death for him.

So if you are giving any gel to a baby, then please remember what I did and the result. Put a dollop on your finger. (Not that I think you are as dumb as I was, I'm just sayin').


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

the selenium vitaman e gel


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

I was stupid once and lost a kid because I used the applicator, instead of placing the dose in his mouth with my more sensitive finger. He breathed it into his lungs and I could not clear it out.

So if you are giving any get to a baby, then please remember what I did and the result.[/QUOTE]

oh i didnt know that could happen, i will remember that, thanks for sharing it with me


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