# How to keep kids safe from mom stepping on them?



## Blessedfarmwife

I am new to kidding, but excited and nervous, so I'm not even sure this is something to be worried about. 

We have two does due in the next two weeks. We have stalls I plan to put them in at night in case they kid while we are out. Our first doe had a single kid, 3 weeks early, she stepped on it, he was tiny and frail to begin with but, I am sure this is why he died. Now I am nervous. Will the kids know to keep clear of the other mamas steps?


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## ksalvagno

How large are your pens?


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## Blessedfarmwife

We have two sizes, I am guessing 5x6, 8x8


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## Blessedfarmwife

I guess the one is bigger maybe 10x6? Handy hubby built them


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## Blessedfarmwife

I believe our Lulu is sticking her tongue out at me while I took this pic!


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## TooManyBoers

Blessedfarmwife said:


> I believe our Lulu is sticking her tongue out at me while I took this pic!


That should be fine if your girls are healthy. I've never had a kid squished in a pen only slightly larger than that-with the exception of my mother's doe who came down with severe milk fever and fell on her kid. Other than that, there's nothing you can do except give bigger pens. By kids are pretty bouncy anyway.


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## goatblessings

I do keep some warming barrels in the pen - some use boxes, small dog houses. For the first night I keep a light on in the barn, so they are more aware of baby - plus I go out every couple of hours to make sure baby is warm and nursing well.


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## Damfino

Blessedfarmwife said:


> Our first doe had a single kid, 3 weeks early, she stepped on it, he was tiny and frail to begin with but, I am sure this is why he died. Now I am nervous. Will the kids know to keep clear of the other mamas steps?


If the kid was three weeks early, I doubt that you would have been able to save him regardless of mom stepping on him. Three weeks is very early and the lungs are not fully developed at that point so medical intervention (steroids, oxygen) is needed to even have a hope of keeping them alive. Often a mother goat will paw and stomp at newborns to force them to get them up and moving, and a premie would not be able to respond. It's unusual for a mama to injure or kill a normal, full-term kid by accidentally stepping on it. Mothers generally have good instincts about knowing where their kids are and watching out for them. Good luck!


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## TooManyBoers

Damfino said:


> If the kid was three weeks early, I doubt that you would have been able to save him regardless of mom stepping on him. Three weeks is very early and the lungs are not fully developed at that point so medical intervention (steroids, oxygen) is needed to even have a hope of keeping them alive. Often a mother goat will paw and stomp at newborns to force them to get them up and moving, and a premie would not be able to respond. It's unusual for a mama to injure or kill a normal, full-term kid by accidentally stepping on it. Mothers generally have good instincts about knowing where their kids are and watching out for them. Good luck!


In fairness I had a kid just shy of three weeks early last year. But we did not leave him with mum and he couldn't walk for two weeks. So it was a fight to keep him alive!


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## Goat_Scout

Pretty girls!

I agree with Damfino, the mama stepping on the premie kid was probably not the reason why it died. At 3 weeks early, I’d be surprised if it lived even with medical intervention. 

We once had a 1200+ cow step on her newborn (still wet) calf’s upper leg and she was completely fine. And a couple years ago one big cow stepped on her newborn’s ribs and that calf was fine, too.


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## Goat_Scout

TooManyBoers said:


> In fairness I had a kid just shy of three weeks early last year. But we did not leave him with mum and he couldn't walk for two weeks. So it was a fight to keep him alive!


A breeder I got a few of my Nubians from had a kid born 2 1/2 weeks early last year, and she had it in her house for the first month or two. She is healthy now and is such a beautiful little doeling!


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## TooManyBoers

Goat_Scout said:


> Pretty girls!
> 
> I agree with Damfino, the mama stepping on the premie kid was probably not the reason why it died. At 3 weeks early, I'd be surprised if it lived even with medical intervention.
> 
> We once had a 1200+ cow step on her newborn (still wet) calf's upper leg and she was completely fine. And a couple years ago one big cow stepped on her newborn's ribs and that calf was fine, too.


We had a kid get stepped on twice. Naturally it couldn't walk but she's fine now.


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## TooManyBoers

Goat_Scout said:


> A breeder I got a few of my Nubians from had a kid born 2 1/2 weeks early last year, and she had it in her house for the first month or two. She is healthy now and is such a beautiful little doeling!


Yeah, mines not so pretty. He's got some bad genetics going on, he looks retarded xD


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## toth boer goats

I agree, a 3 week old is fragile and cannot move out of the way. Being way premature, it's lungs were not ready for the world.
But the due date may of been off a bit, that is a really early assumption. As 2 weeks is a dangerous early kidding time.

I cannot say, a Doe knows where her kids are and are really careful of not stepping or laying on a kid.

I have had a few mama's step on a kid and stay on them. I hear a screaming kid and got out and see the doe is being stupid and standing on the kids leg. So I pick up her foot and free the baby. 

I also had a couple actually lay right on the kid. Thank goodness I was out there. 
I could faintly hear a muffled scream, went around investigating and freaked out because it was coming from under a doe. She was just laying there and her baby was suffocating.  
I went in the stall and got her off of the kid. 
Man that was scary. The kid was OK, but crying a little while after I was holding her.


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## Blessedfarmwife

Damfino said:


> If the kid was three weeks early, I doubt that you would have been able to save him regardless of mom stepping on him. Three weeks is very early and the lungs are not fully developed at that point so medical intervention (steroids, oxygen) is needed to even have a hope of keeping them alive. Often a mother goat will paw and stomp at newborns to force them to get them up and moving, and a premie would not be able to respond. It's unusual for a mama to injure or kill a normal, full-term kid by accidentally stepping on it. Mothers generally have good instincts about knowing where their kids are and watching out for them. Good luck!


Thank you, the mom did everything right, cleaning and talking to baby, but he was so frail and didn't respond to her, couldn't even stand...I figured he would've died  regardless of her stepping on him..how early will a goat safely kid?


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## Blessedfarmwife

goatblessings said:


> I do keep some warming barrels in the pen - some use boxes, small dog houses. For the first night I keep a light on in the barn, so they are more aware of baby - plus I go out every couple of hours to make sure baby is warm and nursing well.


We do have a heat lamp ready to go, but can you explain the warming barrels...if I put a dog "igloo" in the pen, will babies know to go in and get warm and come out when they need to feed?


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## toth boer goats

I don't have the warming barrels, so cannot advise.

10 days kidding early is pushing it.


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## GoatSavvy

Hi there!
There shouldn't be anything much to worry about with entering the kidding season; usually the mothers will take care of their babies and know where they are. I'm sure as "Damfino" above said, the kid probably died because it was so premature. Not too many kid goats will survive if they are premature. We had it once that a kid died from suffocation, when it was stuck inside the bag... normally the doe eats the afterbirth (YUCK!!) so this type of suffocation shouldn't happen too often! That was heartbreaking 
At our farm we practice the 'snatch and rear' method... sounds kindof mean! it broke my heart when I got into goats to learn of this, but it's a proven fact that many diseases (such as CAE, CL and others) transfer passively through the colostrum/milk/saliva. Risk of these diseases is greatly reduced by taking the baby away right away, and then by bottle-feeding the kid goat with either cow colostrum or powdered colostrum (available online and at many vet clinics). We usually feed 3 baby bottles of powdered colostrum within the first 12 hours of birth, and keep the baby in a box with a heat lamp for that first day or so... and then the baby goes into a pen with some friends to keep company and stay warm 
Good luck! and have fun! kid goats are the best


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## Damfino

I do not suggest bottle feeding cow colostrum or powdered colostrum if you can milk the mama. Any diseases transferred through the milk can be killed by pasteurizing the mother's milk, which is a far better option than using substitutes in my opinion. Personally, I prefer to test my goats to make sure they are not carrying any diseases because the happiest, healthiest scenario is when the kids get to stay with their mamas and nurse naturally on clean milk straight from the teat.


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## Jessica84

I agree that there was probably more to it then a simple stepping on the kid. I’m sorry you lost them. 
On the topic of keeping them from stepping on them, you really can’t do anything. You have nice big areas which should help with that. Sometimes does are just clueless and do it though. Usually as Toth said it’s just a leg, they are so small and I don’t think they can feel the legs under them. I have had ones that have been REALLY clueless and have pawed kids to death getting ready for baby #2 or lay on them. Depending on if it was a first timer or what the deal is I chalk it up to being stupid. If it’s a more experienced doe I cull them. I had one doe that I suspected she laid on a kid and killed it one year. The next year she pawed the crap out of it but I was there to save it. I kept it safe till she passed the placenta but the next morning the kid was dead. The next sale yard date she was ran threw!


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## fivemoremiles

In my sheep herd there is an thing i call living dead lamb. the lamb is born but totally week is breathing but no mater what you do it will die within five minutes. It is a bacterial infection that causes the abortion. What really worries me is the bacteria can be transmitted to humans. that is why I do not allow pregnant women in my lambing barn.


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## Blessedfarmwife

Damfino said:


> I do not suggest bottle feeding cow colostrum or powdered colostrum if you can milk the mama. Any diseases transferred through the milk can be killed by pasteurizing the mother's milk, which is a far better option than using substitutes in my opinion. Personally, I prefer to test my goats to make sure they are not carrying any diseases because the happiest, healthiest scenario is when the kids get to stay with their mamas and nurse naturally on clean milk straight from the teat.


Can you get a home test for the milk?


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## Damfino

Unfortunately, no. You have to send a blood sample to a lab. I test my goats for CAE every year since that's the "biggie" that often hides without showing outward signs. These tests are relatively inexpensive and accurate. Once an adult goat tests negative for CAE, it is unusual for them to become positive later in life. This disease is nearly always contracted by kids via their mother's milk. 

CL is not spread through milk but through the pus from an infected abscess. It would be very rare for a CL abscess to develop inside the udder, so it's highly unlikely to be spread from mom to kid through the milk. I don't know what other diseases can be spread through the milk, but I believe all of them present outward clinical signs (such as a staph infection in the udder causing mastitis, which I believe can cause doe kids to also develop mastitis when they freshen if I'm not mistaken).


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## GoatSavvy

Damfino said:


> I do not suggest bottle feeding cow colostrum or powdered colostrum if you can milk the mama. Any diseases transferred through the milk can be killed by pasteurizing the mother's milk, which is a far better option than using substitutes in my opinion. Personally, I prefer to test my goats to make sure they are not carrying any diseases because the happiest, healthiest scenario is when the kids get to stay with their mamas and nurse naturally on clean milk straight from the teat.


Yes, fresh goat colostrum is definitely the best option, but when bottle-feeding a couple hundred kid goats, pasteurizing isn't always a feasible option  I guess it depends on how many goats you have! CAE requires blood testing... and blood testing a couple hundred goats isn't realistic for us b/c of cost. Best management practices sometimes are altered based on the number of animals you're caring for. So for 'blessedfarmwife' who has just a few, it is probably in her best interests (and the kid) to leave the kid with the mama.... that being said, it still doesn't hurt to milk the doe and bottlefeed her colostrum after pasteurization (to ensure no disease transfer, unless you decide to get her tested), so that you know how much colostrum the kid is receiving.

We take good care of our goats, every vet that has come for regular herd health checkups is impressed with their condition.


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## Damfino

Well, yes when you have loads of kids you may have to choose different options than the average backyard breeder.  

I'm sure you take very good care of your goats and I hope you don't think I was implying otherwise. I am only a small-time breeder myself and I prefer our kids to get raw colostrum straight from the teat. I tend to think pasteurization kills too many of the good enzymes in milk that are important for digestion, but of course there are risks with raw milk too, particularly in large herds that you know contain CAE+ does.


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