# How do I improve body condition



## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I am picking up a 2 year old doe (1/2 Saanen 1/2 Nubian) and one of her kids the end of the month (born 4/27/17). She had triplets this year and has been putting most of her energy and nutrition into raising all kids. Is there a way I can help her get some weight back on? I'm sure it will help that when she comes home with me that I am only bringing one kid with.

To my knowledge she is currently receiving some "sweet chop" daily (not sure the exact quantity) and is able to graze (I believe daily). I'm not sure if and what kind of hay she may be receiving. It sounds like she currently has access to loose minerals and salt as well.

I was considering adding alfalfa hay or pellets into her diet to help as well as continuing her current feeds & minerals she is receiving.

Any help is greatly appreciated! I know any changes should probably made fairly gradual.

Thank you!


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

There isn't really anything better to feed a goat than alfalfa hay if it is readily available to you.
Sometimes you will also see alfalfa/orchard grass mix.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

IHEARTGOATS - I think I'll be able to find both pretty easily around here. Thank you!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Yep, alfalfa is great. 

If she isn't on grain, I would start giving her some. I'd slowly work up to a few cups a day. 

You can also give calf manna and/or beet pulp.


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## Bree_6293 (Aug 4, 2014)

When we had very underweight does come here we started offering grassy hay free choice, giving them 1/4 book alfalfa first once a day then building to twice a day and slowly building until they had 1 biscuit in the morning and 1 and 1/2 at night. We also slowing introduced grain. We fed soaked lupins, oats and barley (12 hours) then drained and added copra and soaked beet pulp (10-15 mins in warm water). Once this was all mixed we would add lucerne chaff. We started with 1/4 cup grain and 1/2 cup chaff and built slowly until it was 4 cups 6 cups chaff twice a day. We were trying to dry them off at the same time and found this amount was right to dry them off whilst still getting enough to gain weight. They always got free choice minerals and salt. They are now very chubby not producing on 3 cups grain total fed once a day and 1 biscuit lucerne hay at night and browse and grazing all day. We always keep our feeders full of pea or grassy hay.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

After seeing some very minor improvement in body condition I had a fecal done on my doe, her kid, and a couple of unrelated kids that originated from a different herd and the results were not great 
She came back with a high amount of stomach worms and a low amount of Coccidia (not reported in total count) and her total count was 91. Her doeling came back as having a medium amount of stomach worms and her total count was 43.
For reference here are their ranges (MidAmerican Ag Research):
low = 1-10
medium = 11-50
high = >51
So it looks like stomach worms could be a very big part of the issue with her weight and body condition. I've checked her eyelids and they appear pale to me but she is also a white goat with already pink/pale skin so it is hard for me to tell for sure.
It looks like I get to deal with the long, annoying battle of stomach worms in goats!  Thankfully the others that were tested were not as high (one even came back with a 0 count...but I imagine she'll end up with them now  ). Wish me luck!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I would actually feel good about the information. Much about caring for goats is actually knowing WHAT you are dealing with. Now you can plan your attack and get them on the path to recovery. Great job in getting that fecal done! She should pick up once she has this taken care of.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I agree, I do feel good that I know now. Still not looking forward to dealing with the worms though :S Mostly that I have some that have no worms that will now very likely end up with stomach worms 
I picked up both Safe-Guard (125 mL bottle) and Ivesco Goat Dewormer Concentrate pellets. I was going to use Safe-Guard but my doe is lactating and we're using her milk so I'm concerned with the warning on the bottle "...Because a withdrawal time in milk has not been established, do not use in lactating goats.". There is no such warning on the other (Morantel Tartrate is the active drug ingredient) and it actually says "...No milk discard required following use in dairy goats." However, I am wondering if one would for sure be better than the other though? Her kid will also be being treated for worms so I'm wondering also if there would be any issue with her drinking milk from her mom AND being treated herself?
Any guidance is greatly appreciated!
Thank you!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Nearly all meds & wormers have no official with drawl time for goats. But rest assured, anything you give your doe is safe for any of her kids to drink.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Get the Safeguard for goats
And then ignore the dosage on the Safeguard bottle
Give 1 cc per 10 lbs
We always give for 5 days
I think we use 2 weeks as the withdrawal 
I'll check


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

So after reading a few more posts on this forum regarding stomach worms. I'm wondering at what number most people treat for stomach worms? I thought 91 was very high, but I've read in some posts that they don't deworm until 300-500!! I'm also wondering what other causes there may be for anemia? Would copper deficiency also possibly cause anemia? I'm not sure she's anemic as I already mentioned, but she could be on the verge of it. I'm going to try and get some pictures of her inner eyelids as well as her to share here because I'm sure that would help 
Thanks again!!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Forgot to add...she also has fairly rough/coarse hair and I think it is fairly "thin" too...not necessarily balding, but I can see her skin pretty easily in some locations.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds copper deficient.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Great...that's kind of what I've been leaning towards too with her and a little with a different goat I'm dealing with right now too :S I finally went ahead and ordered copper boluses this morning. Should have probably just ordered some a week ago when the possibility first came up...
Thanks!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Well I gave her a 4g copper bolus tonight so we'll see how that changes things. I did notice today that the goat I thought was basically white actually has some brown/red spots! I knew she had the one spot but all these others are showing up now too! I'm guessing that is due to better nutrition since I got her? I also gave her kid a 2g copper bolus tonight and another goat kid the same.

Next to do is deworming!

About how long does it take before you start seeing improvement from the copper rods? I know it'll probably take a while...just curious about how long 

Thanks!!!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

White goats' spots get more pronounced when they loose their winter coat. 

It might take a couple weeks to see improvement.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

We wrapped up deworming on the 11th. I found a pdf that recommended a 4 day withdrawal following a very similar dosage so I went with that (technically I did 5 days) as well as treating the dogs and kitten to goat milk  I am planning on doing another fecal next week-ish.

I am just really not sure about this goat any more  I noticed a week or two ago that her supra-mammary glands seem swollen. Just how "big" should they normally be and how big should they get before you should really worry that something is wrong? And what are the possible reasons? Mastitis, CL, anything else?? I am really, really hoping this isn't all signs of CL (poor weight and swollen glands). But, a CL test as well as CAE, probably Johne's, and a mastitis test are all in order shortly (been meaning to do at least CL & CAE tests since we got her)! Not looking very forward to drawing blood myself though. She seems fine otherwise, doesn't seem to be feeling sick, eats well, etc. Oh and at what age should the kids be tested? I don't want to test too early. Seems like I've seen 3-4 months for CAE, but can't recall CL and Johne's ages? Thanks!

I also noticed her bag seemed fairly warm to the touch maybe a week ago so I've been treating her with essential oils for mastitis after stumbling across that suggestion online (I did ~4 drops Tea Tree Oil mixed with ~1 TBS coconut oil and used about half the mixture 2X daily oh her udder...on day 3 now). If anyone has any other suggestions here let me know. I'm not sure she has mastitis but if she does it is pretty mellow, as far as symptoms go, I would say. We also decided to start weaning (maybe not the world's greatest idea at this point...) and possibly will be drying her off soon too. The main reason for possibly drying off soon is to help give her body time to recover if we can't seem to find anything clinically wrong with her. And if she doesn't rebound in the next couple months she won't be getting bred at least not with the other girls, maybe later on in the breeding season if she is better recovered then.

I'm also still wondering if she may be at least slightly anemic. Seems to have at least slightly pale color inside eyelids (maybe this just goes back to her being a mostly white goat?). Which brings me to my next question. Since I already gave her a copper bolus would their be any harm in giving her some iron supplements? I am thinking something like Red Cell, Magic Cell, or Rooster Booster (can this one even be given to goats?). I checked the labels on at least the first two when I was in Tractor Supply a while back and it both have copper, 36 mg/fl oz in each.

Thanks again everyone!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

We dropped off a blood sample to test for CAE, CL, & Johne's and a fecal sample to do a fecal float at the state vet lab yesterday. We may draw more blood and test for anemia too by doing a Complete Blood Count but we will see (the blood needed to be in a purple top tube and I only had red top tubes).

We skipped the mastitis (milk culture) test as she seems to be fine now. Maybe the TTO helped, I don't know. But we're also weaning and now starting to dry her off so maybe that is actually helping.

Does anyone have any help to offer regarding my previous comments? I'd greatly appreciate it!

Thank you


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Is she isn't seriously anemic, I wouldn't give any iron supplements. 

What is her temp?

CAE testing shouldn't be done until 6 months old. Pretty sure Johne's isn't accurate until a year, but not positive. No idea on CL.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

So I just realized I forgot to come back and post results! She came back negative on everything we tested for and her fecal came back as 2 EPG.
She was looking a little better looking and seemed to be doing well so I put her in with all the other goats, including my buck (November 6th). The main reason I did this was because she needed better shelter than what her pen had at the moment as we had a winter storm that was suppose to show up that night. She came into heat about a week later and came up bred, which I wasn't super excited about as I would have liked her body condition to have improved a little bit more before breeding. All was going well until she lost her kid(s) the first part of January  She had blood on her tail, enough to know what happened. I had still not yet improved the shelter in the other pen good enough for our winter so I didn't get her pulled out until January 24th. She, at one point after losing her kid(s), had looked like she had lost some weight but after pulling her and putting her in her own pen again (we finally fixed it up!) she is looking better again. I still feel like she isn't filling out like she should be (along the spine and in the top of the hip). I also noticed that she has a small sore (maybe the size of a pencil eraser or a little smaller) on her udder. It has opened and bled a little...seems like she maybe had a sore or two like that last summer/fall but I didn't think anything of it...figured she had poked a greasewood thorn out in the pasture. So I got her on the stanchion today and checked her temp and inspected her udder more closely. Her temp was ~103.5 F so that makes me feel a little more optimistic that she doesn't have any infections. Am I wrong to think that no high temp means no infection? Especially as long as this has been going on. I noticed when inspecting her bag that it feels like there is a couple of hard lumps in her udder located near where the sore is. I also felt her supramammary glands which still feel a little inflamed. To top that all off...this goat has still not dried off completely!! Is that just because she's been getting grain in addition to her alfalfa hay? Or could that indicate something else?
Any ideas what she may have going on now? Could it be staph dermatitis or staph/mastitis?? What about any goat STDs?? Could it just be that this is how she is always going to look (body condition)?
If anyone has any suggestions I'd really love to hear/read them! I'm thinking another trip down to the State Vet Lab (weather/roads permitting) is in order so if you have any suggestions for specific things to test for or look at please let me know 
Thanks again everyone for your help! This has been so frustrating for me and to my knowledge we don't really have any good goat vets around here so that's not a very good option for me. Sometimes I feel like I am just beating my head against a wall trying to figure out what is going on with this goat...!
I really need to take some pictures of her and share them on here...maybe it would help although since she is white is hard to get good definition in photos.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I forgot to add: Since pulling her in January I have been giving her a yogurt container (32 oz) practically full of an oat/alfalfa pellet/sweet feed mix 2X a day as well as alfalfa hay and free choice loose minerals. When she was separate from everyone before she was getting a similar mix (I think I was giving a similar amount just 1X a day then) and alfalfa hay. When she was with the whole herd she was still getting in on the mixture but obviously had to share with everyone else.
I should also add it is possible that she got rammed by another doe (my brother and sister-in-law's 3 does joined us mid/end of December) and that may be the cause of her miscarriage although I don't recall seeing any of them get that aggressive with eachother.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Photos would be really really helpful. Especially the udder sores and then overall photos of her. 

About the milk production - I may have missed it - are you milking her at all? 

I'm so sorry about the miscarriage. A late term miscarriage can sometimes be caused by Chlamydia or Toxoplasmosis, among other causes, but also it just sometimes happened. Since she was only 2 months along, I wouldn't worry about either of those. 

The temperature is just on the cusp of fever and fever indicates an infection. Can you retake her temperature tomorrow and see where it stands? Can you milk some out of her udder (if you aren't already) and check the milk to see if it is pink, bloody, stringy, or clumpy? 

Is her previous kid penned with her? Even if you never see it - the kid could still be nursing. 

It's tough to say if this is her normal body condition if she is producing milk. Yes alfalfa and grain will continue helping her make milk.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

No I haven't milked her since September. I just know there is milk because her bag looked to still have milk (not engorged) so I tried to express some today and sure enough milk came out (more than a trickle, it was a good "spray").
I will try to get pictures tomorrow, I will have to recruit my husband to help hold her when he gets home so I can get good photos of her. I do have one of her sore that I took with my cell phone, it's not a real great photo but I will see about getting it on here.
I will retake her temp tomorrow. I was having a hard time reading my thermometer as I have to position it just right to see what it is registering so I'm not 100% sure how accurate my reading of it was.
Yes, I can also express some milk and see how it looks.
She is only penned with her when she is in the pen with all the other goats. I did have difficulty weaning her last fall (I think it was around a month I had them separated and when I put her back with everyone her kid went back to nursing...tried taping and that only worked temporarily). I don't think she is nursing though because since she has been separated this January she has not gotten engorged from not being nursed/milked. But maybe that doesn't always happen if she is just nursing a little at a time? I haven't seen her kid nurse at all since probably September or October now (I'd have to look back at my calendar for a more precise time frame), but as you pointed out that doesn't always mean they aren't nursing!
Agreed, and I only purchased her last summer after she had already kidded triplets and was nursing them, I have no idea what her body condition was like before then. I am not too worried about the milk production if it is just from the grain consumption, especially since it doesn't appear that she is producing a lot of milk. However, if it is going to hinder her putting more into her body condition...maybe there is another way to "fix" the pickle she is in? If I take her entirely off of the grain mix and put her only on the alfalfa hay will that cause her to lose or at least not improve her body condition though? That's my concern with the no grain mix option. I could, if necessary, find some alfalfa and grass hay, but finding straight grass hay where I am is pretty hard to find.
Thank you so much for the reply! This girl has been quite the puzzle for me!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Here's a couple of pictures of her sore. I will try and get better ones tomorrow with my husband's help. You can kind of see some of the lumpiness she has going on in her udder in the closer up picture of the sore too.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Hmmm it doesn't look like classic staph to me but I don't think a good utter wash with chlorohexadine would hurt in the least. You can buy it at the human pharmacy under the name Hibiclens. I also apply a generic zinc oxide (diaper rash) cream after the wash as well. 

I hope some of the dairy specialist jump on and see the lumps!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Is chlorohexadine something that can usually be picked up at a place like Tractor Supply or Murdoch's or some other feed-type store?
Thanks again!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, typically advertised as Teat Dip for dairy cattle


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

If it were my doe, I would wash it and spray it with fightbac.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I don't have any fightbac  I do have idodine, betadine, triple antibiotic ointment, coconut oil and some other similar oils, and some essential oils on hand right now. I may be making a trip into town today though and I will see what our local stores have on hand.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Fightbac is chlorohexidine based so ya - there are a bunch of different products that may work. I wouldn't apply an oil at this point only because it can trap moisture against the udder and if it does happen to to be Staph that will only help it grow. 

If you can't get chlorohex then wash it up well with a diluted iodine and see if that helps - iodine doesn't particularly address staph but if its another bacterial issue it could help.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Ok I retook her temp about 15 minutes ago and either I did it wrong yesterday or today or perhaps my thermometer is not working properly (however, this is only the second time I have used it and I purchased it new this winter). This time I got 109.5!!! If that was accurate wouldn't she be acting a little "down"?? She acts plumb fine, eats well, drinks well, etc. Pics of her will be posted soon too.
Thanks!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I probably went a little overboard on the quantity, but here's the pictures:


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I would try a new thermometer.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I would recommend some extra mineral supplementation based on the photos. The kink in her tail indicates she may have some selenium deficiency and it looks like she might have some thinner patched of hair in some areas. Addressing minerals might improve her body condition. If you already offer loose minerals (I believe you said you did) you might consider adding Replamin Plus oral paste.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Yes, she is currently getting loose minerals (Ranchway Feeds...now Hubbard I believe...used to be Ranch-O-Min goat mineral, now it has a slightly different name). I guess I haven't noticed a kink until looking back at the pictures...they sure make it look like she has a kink though! I think it may just be that she was holding it that way during the pictures, she definitely has good movement in her tail. She was/is also acting like she is in heat, if that makes a difference. She definitely has thinner hair, especially noticeable in her neck region. Her hair is also a little more coarse feeling than most of my other goats. I did notice after putting her in the pen by herself that she rubs (like the whole length of her body) a lot on the panels...what might that indicate? I have tried to check to see if she has any lice, but she doesn't like to hold still very well for me...of course! I usually do the goat stuff by myself so if I remember before giving her her grain I will get her up on the stanchion and take a better look then.
Next trip into town I think I will take that thermometer back to TSC and request a replacement...I will try to test it one more time before taking it in, but I really doubt that she actually had a 109.5 temp! She would be acting off if she had that kind of temperature right?? Is there something I could have done to make it read that high and be such a different temp than yesterday?
Is there anything in the Replamin Plus that could cause her to get too much of any given mineral/vitamin that is in it while she is also getting the loose minerals? (I hope that question made sense...)
Thanks again


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Yes, she would be acting way different if 109.5 was her temp 102.5 is the norm.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Because she is showing signs of deficiency, you do not need to be concerned about overdosing with Replamin in addition to loose minerals. (Believe me, I put WAY more minerals than that in my goats and they are all still alive  )


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Good to know! Thanks for the help @goat girls and @SalteyLove ! Now to see if I can find Replamin Plus around here...if I can't find it are there any equivalent substitutes I should be looking for/asking about at the local places?


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Tractor Supply *might* have it.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I suspect you will need to order it online. I buy it from Jeffers Livestock website. I'm not away of any equivalent products.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I ended up ordering it through the Tractor Supply website, since I could have it shipped to store for free. Hopefully it is here soon 
I looked around and it looks like the dosage others have recommended is 5cc for 3 days and then weekly after that, is that correct? How long do I continue with it? I don't want this to be a permanent solution (unless it absolutely has to be) to any issues she may have so please chime in if any if you have any recommendations for tests I could run at the state vet lab.
So do any of you think she looks thin? I realize you can only see so much in pictures and you can't "feel" her either so it is hard to determine. She has a good belly on her, but the rest of her just looks so stereotypical "dairy".
Thank you so much!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

And I just realized I forgot to express some milk yesterday! I knew there was something else I was going to do with her!


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## Agreenwd888 (Sep 3, 2017)

Have you checked her again for lice? Lice can cause anemia, scruffy and hair loss. When is the last time you copper bolused her? What color is her eyelid? =)


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I have not had a chance to give her a thorough look-over for lice, just tried to look through her hair at her skin a few times when I've been in the pen with her. When I get her back up on the stand to check over some other things I will give her a more through look then. If she had or has lice though wouldn't she have very likely passed them on to the other goats and wouldn't they all be looking similar? I did recently find lice on some of my chickens  So they just got treated on the 7th, I'm not sure if the lice that live on chickens will also live on goats (and vice versa)...maybe someone could chime in on that?
I have not checked her eyelids as of lately...I can do that when I get her back up on the stanchion too.
She had a 4g copper bolus the end of July. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to give her another though.
Thanks!


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## Agreenwd888 (Sep 3, 2017)

rodeorulz said:


> I have not had a chance to give her a thorough look-over for lice, just tried to look through her hair at her skin a few times when I've been in the pen with her. When I get her back up on the stand to check over some other things I will give her a more through look then. If she had or has lice though wouldn't she have very likely passed them on to the other goats and wouldn't they all be looking similar? I did recently find lice on some of my chickens  So they just got treated on the 7th, I'm not sure if the lice that live on chickens will also live on goats (and vice versa)...maybe someone could chime in on that?
> I have not checked her eyelids as of lately...I can do that when I get her back up on the stanchion too.
> She had a 4g copper bolus the end of July. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to give her another though.
> Thanks!


When my goats get lice I have only seen 1 at a time out of the 5 get it. It's usually the goat that is most deficient or my heaviest milker. I have only had 2 ever have lice. I just got a link to great info about minerals and deficiency. I'll post it it seems I have not been supplementing enough copper the link says 1g bolus per 20-22 lbs. I also discovered last week the high iron in my water may be a problem so I got a water filter


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## Agreenwd888 (Sep 3, 2017)

Great link for mineral questions
https://thriftyhomesteader.com/goats-and-copper-deficiency/


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## Agreenwd888 (Sep 3, 2017)

Link for my other forum about goat mineral deficiency https://www.thegoatspot.net/index.php?threads/195714/


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Ok I got her up on the stanchion today.
I rechecked her temp and I am still getting 109.5, so the thermometer will definitely need to be taken back...something HAS to be wrong with it!
I need to go back out and recheck eyelids...I checked the inside of the upper eyelid instead of the bottom eyelid...oops!!
I gave her a pretty good look-over for lice and couldn't find any at all (including no eggs).
Her hair is definitely thin and coarse feeling. Most of the other goats have softer hair than her although some do seem to be a little more on the coarse side than others.
I also expressed some milk. I did about 6 total squeezes out of each side. The first 3 had a few small "clumps" but after dumping that milk and doing another 3 I didn't notice any more "clumps". I also didn't notice anything stringy, any specks of blood, or any pink color to the milk. The milk also just smelled like warm milk, I didn't notice any strong odors.
While on the stand I felt her udder too and there is still some lumps near where the sore was. On the plus side the sore is healing up very well and looks like it won't be a problem!
I also noticed that she is a bit on the "crusty" side on her back end and on her tail...could that indicate anything?
@Agreenwd888 Thank you for the links! I will be checking them out for sure!!
This goat has turned into much more of a "fixer-upper" than I ever anticipated :S


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Sounds to me that you need to apply the "OLE KNOW WHEN TO HOLDEM & KNOW WHEN TO FOLDEM" principal. In other words, if she is more trouble than she is worth, then let her go !!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

TexasGoatMan said:


> Sounds to me that you need to apply the "OLE KNOW WHEN TO HOLDEM & KNOW WHEN TO FOLDEM" principal. In other words, if she is more trouble than she is worth, then let her go !!


Sad for me to think about as I really love having her around, she is such a sweet girl as well as a good mother and decent milker (from my experience with her so far), but I realize she may end up having to head down the road 
I have a "problem" with getting too attached to my animals, just ask my husband  At this point she does still have a chance around here as I am not ready to her down the road yet. I also don't like to give up...in case you can't tell from this post  Not that I disagree with what you said, because there is a time when they are too much trouble to keep around (financial, health, dangerous, etc).
I'm still under the assumption that her "issues", whatever they may be, go back to raising triplets all on her own last year with quite possibly no extra assistance (nutritionally speaking, including minerals). If you're familiar with the part of WY I am from then you will probably know why this is of concern to me and why I made the assumption I did. Nobody has really contradicted this assumption other than the possibility of her just being this way as a normal thing.
Maybe I just need to not breed her to kid at all this year and give her this year to try and bounce back? I think that by doing a CBC and possibly a milk culture I might get some answers there too. If there is any other testing that could be done to find out if she is deficient of something or any other possibility that sounds viable I am open to options for other testing as well. If she doesn't bounce back by the end of this fall or the end of the year...well...I may just have to say my goodbyes :'(
As I am sure you can tell I am just so torn as to what to do with her...I love her a lot, she has really taken a hold on my heart. I would feel terrible if I sent her down the road without giving her the chance I think she deserves here. And if this is all about nutrient/mineral deficiency then that is something that I should be able to straighten out. Sorry...I know that was a really long ramble of a post.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I would not hesitate to give her 8 grams of copper bolus since she hasn't had any since July.

Chicken lice won't live on goats.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Glad to read that chicken lice won't live on goats!! 
Should I be giving everyone a dose of copper too? Even the pregnant does? Some of the other goats received them in October and my brother and sister-in-laws haven't ever received any (however, I wonder if they must have more copper in their main diet than they do here at my place as they haven't ever shown obvious signs of copper deficiency...at least not that I have noticed).
I suppose I can answer my own question by checking eyelids and going from there 
There is no risk of her getting too much copper after my Replamin Plus gets in and I start giving that correct?
On a slight side note too...I noticed that TSC recently pulled the Replamin Plus from their website! I will quiz them when I pick mine up and see what that is all about. Kind of wishing I would have bought more now!
Thanks!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Well she has been on the Replamin Plus Gel since February 19th and I must say she looks like a completely different goat! I did 3 days of 5cc then 5cc weekly after that. She is still getting her weekly dosage and I have started some of the other goats on it as well  Thank you for the suggestion, I am so glad it worked!! Now I will be curious to see how she looks after she kids (not due until around July 24th). She also got 6g of copper on Feb 17th.
I'll see about getting some pictures of her so you can see how she looks now. If I don't have before pictures up here I'll see what I can find for before as well and share/re-share.
Thanks again!!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Great news! Replamin can be purchased from Valley Vet, Jeffers, and other online livestock places too


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## agreenwd (Apr 11, 2015)

Since February your goat has received copper and replamin? Anything else? How much and what alfalfa/grains etc. I have a couple saanen goats that need a boost and I'm thinking about starting the replamin. I just gave everyone copper last week. I have 5 heavy Milkers that all have a low body condition. They are on pasture and get 2 cups of alfalfa pellets per day plus 6 cups of goat chow each. And they have a bc of 2 or less.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

6 cups of grain per day for heavy milkers is not much, they need pounds!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Her diet really hasn't changed much. She has had any of the following hays at different times: alfalfa, alfalfa/grass, or orchard grass. As far as grain and other feed goes she hasn't had much but she has gotten oats, pelleted sweet feed, and alfalfa pellets (total she gets volume wise right now is probably 5 cups 1X daily split between her and 3 other goats, so not much per goat...usually about half the amount is oats and the other half is split between the alfalfa and sweet feed, usually a little more alfalfa than sweet feed...I usually eyeball amounts and adjust as needed). Starting sometime in April we have had some grass for grazing as well as greaseweed and sagebrush for browsing and I'm sure some weeds too  Keep in mind she is not milking right now and unless things change fairly dramatically she is also not a heavy milker. She did struggle with keeping good body condition last year, so that's why I have decided to hang on to her through a month or more after kidding to make sure she isn't going to struggle again (and if she does I can prepare her for a future owner as well as do what needs to be done to keep her on track) and then she'll likely be moved on to a new home (unless her milk volume changes). I don't like passing a known problem on to someone else (especially if I can't figure out what is going on myself), so if I can figure her out and set her new owners up so they are prepared then I'll gladly keep her around long enough to know  She is such a sweet goat that she makes it easy to keep her around the extra time  Anyways...enough rambling!
@agreenwd Have you by chance checked to see if they may be wormy? One of my FFs (actually this doe's daughter that I have) was loosing body condition and starting to even go off feed (a little, mostly not wanting to eat her alfalfa pellets). I checked her eyelids and noticed they seemed awfully pale so I went ahead and dewormed. She seems to be acting and even looking a little better already so hopefully that was her problem. I did not do a fecal on her (I know, I should have) but because I had done one last year and she had them then I figured she doesn't have the resistance to worms like some of my other goats may have. I need to recheck her eyelids now and see if she's getting color back too. She was around 4 weeks fresh when I first noticed the decline. After everything with Fluttershy and now her daughter, Daisy, I am thinking that genetically speaking maybe both of these goats also do not tolerate worms very well and may just always be goats that need the extra "boost" to stay healthy.
Hopefully my rambling has helped, at least a little 
Good luck @agreenwd !


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