# help with udder eval.



## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

I'm looking at two bucklings. one's mother is a FF pic at 11 hr. The other, DiNozzo's, mother, FIFI at 4 hr fill ( I made the mistake in not having my milking parlor and stanchion finished until the kids were 8 weeks old- so I didn't start milking her until then). The third photo is the full sister to FIFI (DiNozzo dam). Pics aren't great but some input would be helpful.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

one last pic- genevive -fif's full sis


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Fifi not being full is tough to see her capacity and potential...her pic looks like she needs to have more rear height.
Genevive looks nice but with the angle of her teats, she could use more rear height, teats better placed( a tad closer) and a better medial, overall...her capacity and area of attachment and fore looks great
Hope has a need for capacity...normally with second freshenings and forward they gain this, her rear pic is shadowed but I see a nice wide area of attachment, nice sized teats with good placement and nice medial. Side pic shows the way the "thirds" should look...nice extended fore, rear and plumb teats however she could use a higher rear.

I have never retained a buckling from a FF.... The only 2 boy's I have ever sold as bucks have been from my 6th freshener and 2nd freshener, each proved their udders with successive freshenings and I felt confident in keeping boys intact. As FF....you just don't know if what they start with will get better or worse until they are freshened again.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

If it were me I would not keep a buck intact from either doe based on these photos. Geniveve looks nice from the side but lacks Medial and wings out. Fifi you just cant tell with so little fill it looks like she needs more forudder extension. Hope looks to have nice size teats but lacks attachment and forudder.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Those udders are very nice and I'd be happy to have them in my herd. They they are not ones I would personally keep a buck from

The black doe's udder could use a better medial and teat placement but is the nicest. The yellow doe could use better rear attachment, but it may just be the fill that makes it seem that way. The speckled doe is not full so it's hard to tell.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

wood haven the speckled doe is actually a 11 hr fill, FF.
does someone have a good pic with maybe arros or something to point out the good areas. Or comparison of good high attachment vs not, same with the foreudder?
thanks


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Yay I get to do this again. :clap:

Introducing the handy dandy score chart! From the scores below, you can judge the picture under it. The picture usually shows one extreme or the other -- the scores such as strength (27 to 33) is saying that the perfect strength is somewhere in-between the 25 and 45 picture.

Stature - meet standard for breed at 4 years of age
Strength* - 27 to 33
Dairyness* - 33 to 38
Teat Diameter - 18 to 28
Rear Legs - 25 to 30
Rump Angle - 30 to 35
Rump Width - 30 to 35
Fore Udder Attachment - 35 to 42
Rear Udder Height - 40 to 45
Rear Udder Arch - 32 to 40
Udder Depth - 22 to 27
Medial Suspensory Ligament - 28 to 32
Teat Placement - 25 to 30

*animals outstanding in Dairy Character are a combination of these ranges in strength and dairyness.










Ps. As for rear attachment, as liz once told me, you want the udder looking like a square instead of a heart.

Square:









Heart:

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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

here are a few photos of 2 of my does.
You can see the first has a nice attachment and the second doe is lacking.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Very nice examples!!

Rear height and attachment... wide and as close to the vulva as possible( the less area between the top of the rear udder and the vulva, the better the attachments)


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

Thank you so much!! now I have to figure out how I can save the pics and chart to my computer for easy reference- is that possible?
The photos are great too- again thank you. Now I want to reevaluate but I've let her dry up for the year  I wish i had gotten more and better pics of FiFi when she was actually at a 12 hr fill. Lesson learned.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

I guess I'm kind of frustrated being newer to the dairy goats. The buckling from Hope as a FF I was originally told they would be wethers, then I was told mom was so nice they could go as bucklings. I'm really considering selling him as a pet and looking for another buck. The second buckling I'll hold on to until his mother is at least freshened the second time and see how she does. the gold doe, Fifi, who's sis is pictured as the black one, I'm hoping will look better second time around since I started to milk so late and let her dry up too soon. I have been told mixed comments on if they don't milk for 10 mos the first time could really affect their future productions; experience on that???


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## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

To copy the pictures to your local drive I believe you can right mouse and then select "Save As ..."

You can also go the the ADGA website and look for a document with the title Linear Appraisal System for Dairy Goats - Linear Appraisal Program. It will have what WoodHaven Farms posted along with a few words.

There are things you can tell about the doe udders without them needing to be blossomed. And there are somethings that won't change regardless of number of freshenings.

Myself - I find it harder to fix udders than structure. So if I have a doe with a nice udder but structure is off, I will keep her and see what she throws. Same for my boys. I don't want my boys to make my udders worse. And I have yet to find that 1 buck that can fix everything. That's why I will have a number of bucks to correct structure such as topline, brisket, width at chest ...... But all must not make the udders worse on the offspring.

Finding the right buck for your girls is subjective because all of our herds are at different spots for climbing that ladder to perfection. The person who said leave that buck as is could be lower on the ladder than you. 

And .... I find that the number of kids born and if you're milking or dam raising your kids has a lot to do with production. And to throw a wrench in there --- I've heard the genetics of the 1st buck you breed them to has a decision on how that udder develops too. Not willing to explain that one but I bet you could find something on google about it. I think either you're a believer on that one or you're not.

HTH,


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

thanks for some food for thought.
I can understand the production being factored by number of kids and dam, vs dam and milking. Although, I have to wonder on the 1st buck you breed them to. I can see genetically how it would affect the kids produced (sire affecting), but not sure how it would affect the does future? I remember when I was showing and doing dog rescue, I had someone tell me that his chow wasn't purebred anymore because she was bred to a mutt. I had to explain that the pups would be "mutts" but her genetics are still the same. So I wonder if it's similar?
If anyone else knows by all means chim in please.
thanks


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

Elizabeth,
What type of things would you be looking for on a doe who is not in milk? I'm thinking two teats in proper position?


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## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

Why does it affect the milk? 

The chemical stimulus for udder development prior to freshening comes from the placenta and the effect is really important in the first-freshener who is developing an udder for the first time. The placenta has the genetics of the fetus - half from the dam and half from the service sire. This has been researched and known in dairy cattle breeding for many years. Sometime in the '80s David Funk in New York tested it out in his herd. He bred sets of twin and triplet doelings to very dairy bucks and to bucks with low genectic potential for milk production, for their first freshening. His results were published in DGJ and DGG. There were charts showing that the sisters bred to the dairy bucks had higher peak production and sustained a better lactation curve than the does bred to the non-dairy bucks. If I remember correctly, the does bred to non-dairy bucks didn't even average 10-month lactations. He carried the experiment on to the second freshening and found that the effect of the non-dairy buck on the initial udder development carried through to subsequent lactations. Does bred to dairy bucks the first time and non-dairy bucks the second time still had higher peaks and sustained lactation than the does bred to a non- dairy buck the first time and a dairy buck for the second lactation.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

I see. that is great information. Thank you


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