# Was sold a cryptorchid buckling as a pet wether, what to do?



## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

I would love to get feedback on what others feel I should do and if I should hold the breeder financially responsible for any procedure that may have to be performed. So here goes!

Here is what I emailed the breeder:

"Hello!

The goats are doing well and we love them dearly! We do have an issue with one of them. He was the brown/good moon spotted boy that needed to be dehorned twice and also had an undescended testicle.
I'm curious if the vet actually removed that testicle or just the descended one?
I know you said both had been removed, but wondering if there was a mixup in communication between the vet and you or you and me and I got the wrong impression?
He is behaving very much like a buck. Even with trimming he keeps growing horns with a blood supply, he is getting a "mane" and a beard, he sprays urine all over his front legs and face and is constantly mounting the other boys as well as getting frisky with one of my daughters.
Wondering what could be going on with him if indeed both testicles were removed? Let me know if you've heard of this before with a wether and if you have any advice on what I should do?

Thank you!

Nicole"

Here is the reply from the breeder (I am not including names at this point):

"Hi Nicole, The vet removed the undescended testicle as well as the descended. Sometimes, with an undescended testicle, it can be difficult to ensure that all of the material is removed. So there is a possibility that he is producing more testosterone than is normal for a wether.. No mixup of communication...I watched her when she removed them and related it accurately to you.

some wethers do behave more like a buck than others. as far as the horns needing additional work, that was a problem with the original disbudding not necessarily with any 'buckiness"...it is very difficult to get all the horn material on the bucklings and scurs are not uncommon. When scurs "arise' we advise people to simply trim the scurs on a monthly basis/and/or trim them when you trim their hooves. it only takes a few minutes and does keep the scurs down...quite often the scurs will be knocked off with headbutting games with the other goats...sometimes they don't grow back..and sometimes they do.

Mounting behavior is seen in wethers with wethers, bucks with bucks and even does with does and of course any combination thereof---its more a goat thing than just specifically a "male goat" thing, however, even my full males/bucks do not bother people with such behavior. if your daughter has played with him as a baby...he may simply be replaying those games thinking it is ok and welcome...just as a bigger boy its not so much fun for us. You might carry a water bottle and when he does something objectionable to you or your daughter give him a good hearty squirt...usually quit effective,
If you find the behavior untolerable the only recommendation I can make is that you find another home for him/or both of them. wish I had something else to suggest."

My reply:

"I don't mind any of his behaviors other than the urine spraying. There is definitely a testosterone issue going on. 
Can you give me the vets information please? I would like to get a copy of the records for him if possible so I can show my vet where and how the undescended testicle was removed especially if he has to go back in and look for remaining tissue. We are going to do a testosterone level check as well once we get the info from your vet. 
Thank you so much for your help, I appreciate it!"

She emailed me back with the vet name and number, I was able to find an email address for the vet and went that route as I have all the info saved and easy to pass on to my vet. 

Here is what the vet emailed to me:

"Hi Nicole. I remember the procedure well. I actually still have the "testicle" saved in a formalin jar. That apparently was not a testicle. I was very not-confident that I had gotten all of the testicle and if he is having buck-like behavior, almost certainly did not. My apologies. Sharon and I both knew there was a possibility that the testicle may not have been removed but were hoping to give the goat a chance. 


Here were my notes from that day:
L testicle decended, but R not palpable. Urethra located, and what seems to be gubernaculum attached inside scrotum. Traction applied to gubernaculum until a tiny testicular structure removed and excised. It seems as if vas deferens has been removed as well, and testicle structure is compatible with testicle on cut surface, although epididymus cannot be found. Without histo on the structure removed, it is impossible to know if the structure removed is indeed absolutely the retained testicle. Saved in formalin for eval if desired.
In addition, there was a fair amount of trauma to the penis/urethra during exploration. Resflor given for both anti-inflammatory effects and for infection prevention. Owner to monitor carefully for successful urination."

Now, had the breeder been upfront about this I would have had the tissue sample sent to a lab for verification. I work for a small animal vet it wouldn't have cost me much other than the lab fee. She had the procedure done 2 days before I picked him up. Never mentioned a word to me about the trauma to his urethra and that I should perhaps keep an eye on things. Also had she mentioned the undescended testicle prior to me coming to pick him up I may have asked to select a different goat that had been 100% castrated.

Currently I'm having the vet mail me the sample (thank God she saved it), and will run that as well as a blood test for testosterone levels. Should it come back that the testicle is still in there I'm looking at paying between $100-$300 for the procedure depending on how easy or difficult it is to remove and that's on top of the blood & tissue samples being sent off to the lab. (This is not the vet I work for as mine only does small animal) Is it out of line to ask the breeder to reimburse me the cost of the surgery if he should need one?

Also, with a one testicle goat (half a buck? I can call him fiddy cent I guess) is his behavior (again, mostly concerned about the urine spraying) going to worsen as he matures? 
Trying to figure out if I leave him as is what the issues may be and what risks if any there are in searching for the missing testicle. This is my 10 year old daughters goat and she would be heartbroken (as would the rest of the family) if anything happened to him.

There, I think I'm done...just really unsure as to how to proceed and if I should contact the breeder further or be done with her altogether. Thank you!!

Nicole


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can always ask the breeder, but more than likely she will not want to put out the money. Usually when you sell a goat, you sell as is, and make no guarantees once they leave the farm. So technically she is in the right to not want to do anything more. She should have told you everything the vet told her and even given you the sample so it is hard to say. I would probably chalk it up to lesson learned and just not go back to that breeder again for any future sales.

If he has a testicle left, he will continue to be bucky and they do get smellier as they get older. So if you don't want him to smell, you will probably need to further investigate it.


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

If you are not attached to the goat, I would ask the breeder to take him back and replace him with a true wether. If she doesnt have any, I think you are entitled to a full refund, because clearly you did NOT purchase what you thought you were.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

Liability varies from state to state. She should have been up front with you about his surgery, and about the vets doubts as to whether he was fully castrated or not. Because of the trauma mentioned, she definitely should have mentioned it to you because he could have died and you would not have known why. It sounds like either she does not know what she is talking about or she was trying to cover up that he might still be a buck and that the surgery was more extensive that she led you to believe.

You can talk to a lawyer about her liability and take her to small claims court. Or you can discuss this with your vet and have him/her discuss it with the vet who did the surgery and then take her to small claims court yourself.

Personally, I think she knew what she was doing and got caught. If he is a partial buck, he will get bigger, smellier and more bucky as he gets older. He could become dangerous to your daughter.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ok, this breeder is either lying OR just kinda retarded. There can be no production of testosterone in a male body without the testies to receive Gonadotrophins. Which in turn cause the testies to produce Leydig cells to produce testosterone IN THE TESTICLES for boys and in the ovaries in females. So I would email the breeder back and inform her you are going to have a vet come out and inspect the animal. And if he finds that there is still a testy there, then you are going to need a refund for the purchase and for the vet. Unless she just wants to refund you the money for the purchase now.

Also, horn growth is directly effected by testosterone. Castrated males horns grow fractionally as much as if the buck was still intact.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

From what the vet told you, I absolutely believe she knew that there was a good chance he wasn't fully castrated and was just trying to get him off her hands as soon as possible. She knew the vet was uncertain if she got it all, she knew there was damage done to the goat and didn't disclose even THAT so you could provide proper care. I have very little doubt she intentionally withheld all of that information. Here is the thing though, there is very little likelihood she will pay you anything for another procedure, you daughter is attached, so you really can't make her take him back without trauma to your daughter. I fear you may have to just eat the extra money and fix him the best you can. Rehoming him would even be difficult because who wants a wether that acts like a buck or a buck that can't breed. If your daughter wasn't attached I would make her take him back, but since she is, you have to weigh your options.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I agree, wethers grow horns more like does do, not like a buck. If you can have it done, see if the vet can ultrasound him. I know with horses they can ultrasound them to find the other testicle so that when they do the surgery they have a better idea of where it is. The breeder should not have sold him to you until she knew that he was properly castrated, especially since the procedure can be very expensive. I would also contact the vet that did it and see if she would be willing to do the surgery to remove the remaining testicle at a discounted rate since she didn't do it properly to begin with. I honestly can't believe that that vet wouldn't be able to tell if what she removed was or was not a testicle... Testicles aren't just tissue, when the skin (outer layer) is removed the "meat" looks a lot like a brain, except more brownish colored.

If he was sterile, he would make a good "teaser" buck.


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## goatiegirl (Jan 7, 2013)

I agree with Audrey. I would try to work it out with the breeder before getting lawyers and courts involved. 
Since you have the vet info, I would copy it and give it to her showing that the vet was not as sure as she thought he was. Then ask for a refund or another goat.
If you are attached and want to keep the goat, I think you will probably have to pay for the surgery yourself.
If she took the goat back, she would more than likely not have the surgery done and maybe send him to freezer camp or auction???


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

I had sent a reply last night but I don't see it here. 
So I'll try to remember what I wrote.

He belongs to my 10 year old daughter who loves him very much so he won't be leaving and we will definitely be getting the surgery done. 

I asked the vet if she would be willing to perform the surgery and this is her reply:
Hi Nicole. It would be best if I chatted with your vet. If (s)he wishes to do the surgery, then histo of the testicle is the most appropriate thing. And I should submit it to Cornell. I am not set up to put your goat on inhalent anesthesia and do an abdominal exploratory, which is what is required for removal of a cyrptorchid testicle. Sometimes a small animal vet is a better person to do this surgery, with a large animal person running anesthesia. It is a difficult and complicated procedure, often, which is why we tried the best we could in the field. I have no reason to believe that I could do better second time around in the field and doubt that another field surgeon will want to have a go either.


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

So that options out. I'm going to attempt to get the breeder to pay something, either the purchase price of the goat or half the surgery. Which will be roughly the same amount. It's not so much the money it's the fact that I was lied to and valuable information was withheld from me. 
I had bought three at the same time and one was coughing when we got him home. Took him to the vet and he had pneumonia he passed away a few days later even with aggressive treatment. The vet said he felt there was something "insidious" going on internally that we couldn't see. Makes me wonder now if there was any info on that goat that she didn't tell me about!!


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

You got a "crypt orchid" AND a kid with pneumonia? Well, that was...I'm at a loss for words...unbelievable. That seller should either replace both goats or refund your money. SHE is the one to take the loss here. IF she wants her reputation intact, that is. I have many repeat clients and referrals from happy clients. And, I guard that reputation well. As breeders we should never sell a kid that is questionable for any reason. I have asked folks to wait on "pick ups" if the kid is not perfectly healthy. People are very willing to wait if there is a problem. 

Shame on her, and if you would please tell us who this is, it will help the next person from this sort of heartache.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Boy, that's tough. I would either chalk it up to a loss (if she refuses to pay) and personally, i would have him processed....what if you explain it to your daughter, and why it needs to be done and get her another? I would worry he will become hard to handle in rut season due to urges and no outlet...

Hope you find a good solution....good luck!


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Also, he may continue to do some of those "bucky" things after the surgery, anyway, since he already knows the "behavior".


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

Di said:


> Also, he may continue to do some of those "bucky" things after the surgery, anyway, since he already knows the "behavior".


 Gosh I hadn't thought of this but it is a good point. You may have to consider getting rid of him, and explaining to your daughter no matter how hard that might be. I sure wouldn't want him hurting her with his behavior.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

He may do it, he may not. I would give him a chance since your daughter is attached. He was always going to be a pet so different from some of us who strictly have animals that must contribute. You have to decide what is the best route for you to go. Hopefully the vet can take care of the problem and you will have a happy daughter.


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## Goat Mom (May 1, 2012)

I was in a similar situation with my wether. They "missed one" when they banded him and also did a terrible job on disbudding. It became obvious that he still had a testicle when he started acting bucky a couple months after I got him. Fortunately for us, it was easily removed, but I just wanted to reassure you that his bucky behaviors went completely away once that was done.

The horns are a whole other subject. He ended up with one completely normal horn and one scur. We're looking at removal this fall, which sounds complicated and painful. Not what I really want to put him through, but he's using it far too often on my doe for me to leave things as they are.

Good luck with your goats. I hope things aren't too costly for you.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> He may do it, he may not. I would give him a chance since your daughter is attached. He was always going to be a pet so different from some of us who strictly have animals that must contribute. You have to decide what is the best route for you to go. Hopefully the vet can take care of the problem and you will have a happy daughter.


I agree I would give him the surgery and the chance, but if the aggression does last then it would be time to make hard decisions.


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

We are definitely doing the surgery and see how it goes. He's not aggressive at this point, just spraying pee everywhere, sticking his equipment in his mouth and the mounting which they all do to each other, he just does it with an erection 
So currently I'm awaiting the vet who did the initial procedure to release the tissue she removed to my vet so we can send it to a lab for evaluation. Then we will schedule to surgery once we have confirmation that it is not a testicle. Honestly I don't know why they can't tell by dissecting it a bit. Although my vet wanted to look at it first, he thinks she may have removed a lymph node! 
Thanks for all the input everyone, I am going to request that she refund the purchase price of $125 and if she is not willing than I will go after the full surgery amount in small claims court. Surgery is estimated at $200-$300 without complications, rechecks, lab work etc. so I don't think I'm asking for a lot from her. We shall see how it goes!


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

Goatmom that's great news! While he's under sedation I'm going to have the horns removed. They are thin and almost flat, very odd looking. I did file down the edges so they aren't sharp but he could still do some damage if he wanted to I'm sure!
So happy about the behavior changing though. Really if he would just stop spraying urine I can cope with the rest!


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

The breeder should either offer you a replacement wether or a refund. I don't think they would be obligated to pay for the surgery costs.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

lol the spraying thing kinda reminds me of the pack prospect I sold to my vet. He was my pick of the year for myself but he ended up with a hernia. My vet offered to do the surgery but highly doubted it would be a good idea to use him as a packer. But he was the sweeted, never mean to any of the littler babies, always calm little boy. So my vet offered to buy him and do the surgery on his own time and money. So not long after he got him home he calls and says this boy is just the sweetest goat I have ever seen. He and my 2 year old daughter are just the best of friends and he follows her everywhere just waiting for her to pet him. He never pushes her or get in her way, never makes her fall.
Fast forward a month and a half. We talk again and I ask about the boy
My vet replies with oh he is doing great and is still the sweeted boy ever. THOUGH I am going to have to castrate him this weekend cause he keeps peeing on my daughter and my wife is getting upset


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

TDG, thats funny in a gross sort of way.


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

Ha ha! Although I wouldn't find it funny either. So far the only other casualty has been a chicken that stood in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

The issue with true cryptorchidism is that the undescended teste can grow into the abdomen wall making removal very hard. I hope this isn't the case with your little guy


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## goatgirl16 (Nov 21, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> lol the spraying thing kinda reminds me of the pack prospect I sold to my vet. He was my pick of the year for myself but he ended up with a hernia. My vet offered to do the surgery but highly doubted it would be a good idea to use him as a packer. But he was the sweeted, never mean to any of the littler babies, always calm little boy. So my vet offered to buy him and do the surgery on his own time and money. So not long after he got him home he calls and says this boy is just the sweetest goat I have ever seen. He and my 2 year old daughter are just the best of friends and he follows her everywhere just waiting for her to pet him. He never pushes her or get in her way, never makes her fall.
> Fast forward a month and a half. We talk again and I ask about the boy
> My vet replies with oh he is doing great and is still the sweeted boy ever. THOUGH I am going to have to castrate him this weekend cause he keeps peeing on my daughter and my wife is getting upset


Lol that is hilarious although I would get upset too! We have a duck that keeps perching on the fences and every time my husband is around it poops on him lmao!!! I can't help but laugh like crazy but after he did it last night my husband that is it he is having duck for dinner tonight!!


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## Abra (Aug 11, 2012)

I am no expert... But...

You paid for a wether, you should have gotten a wether.

You have an eMail from the breeder, assuring you that the teste was removed. From the eMail, it sounds almost as if she is GUARANTEEING it, saying that she SAW the teste be removed. She also said that there was NO misunderstanding, and NO miscommunication. If this is true, that means she KNEW the problem, because she was TOLD by the Vet what was going on. That also means that she flat out LIED to get the goat sold.

You also have an eMail from the Vet *clearly* telling you that (according to the Vet), they are almost certain that they did NOT remove the teste.  They also said, in the eMail, that the Breeder WAS notified of this.

Therefore, the breeder sold you the goat, KNOWING there might be an issue. Not only did she withhold information, but she lied, claiming something that was untrue (that the teste was removed).

I could be wrong, but it's my opinion, that you should be reimbursed for the cost of the procedure that would ENSURE the goat you got would be a wether.

And I think you should be able to use the eMails in court as proof......


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Abra said:


> I am no expert... But...
> 
> You paid for a wether, you should have gotten a wether.
> 
> ...


I agree with this 100 percent


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## Abra (Aug 11, 2012)

I have been sitting here, thinking, and I just wanted to put in another 2 cents...

In my honest opinion, I think this breeder was trying to pass off a 'problem' goat off to someone else, and I believe that she really thinks she will get away with it.!!!

IF you do NOT go after her for the *ENTIRE* cost of the necessary surgery, she WILL do it again to someone else.

You really didn't need to learn a lesson, you KNEW what you were doing.... You TRUSTED the breeder.... So a lesson to YOU as someone else mentioned, IMO, is not necessary...

BUT, this SHOULD be a lesson to the BREEDER..!!! She needs to learn that she will NOT get away with doing this to people!!!

I will bet my money that this is not the first problem goat she has sold to someone while pulling the wool over their eyes!

Don't even get me started on the OTHER things she didn't care to mention! Trauma to the penis/urethra during exploration? And she didn't THINK that mentioning this was even mildly important..???
This is NOT an honest person. I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her. And that wouldn't be far!

There. I'm done now. LOL I feel better!


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## Toytoy (Jul 23, 2013)

Wow! What a terrible experience. I agree with other views that this breeder seems shady. I think you should share the breeder name. People will continue with that kind of behavior unless they are made to suffer consequences for their actions.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

AND don't forget, the little kid with pneumonia. Please expose this bad breeder. 

In my business, (dentistry/dentures, I'm a dental tech, hubby dentist), I see folks that have outrageous "quotes". Overselling procedures that are at least overpriced, and at worst, unnecessary. Sometimes, folks will come in here with high priced dentures that don't work because the other dentist "missed the bite" and won't fix it or the patient doesn't want to go back and complain. They have been made to feel that whatever was wrong was their fault. NOT! I encourage them to complain to the dental board. But, most won't and that just makes those people emboldened to do it to the next guy. 

So, to be sure your friends on TGS don't suffer from this person.


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

Hey all, just wanted to update everyone that's been following this thread. I'm awaiting arrival of the removed tissue to have my vet examine it and then send it off for analysis. I need proof that it is not a testicle. We will then set up a surgery time and after removal I will contact the breeder. I need to have my claim backed up 100% before I pursue anything and also make her name public. If anyone wants to know prior to this you can PM me and I'll let you know. I just don't want to have her get wind of this before I have a chance to get all my evidence in order. 
Thanks for all the advice, it helps to know that I'm not crazy in thinking I was wronged by her!


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

*Surgery is scheduled*

Hi all, I have surgery scheduled for the little guy and I'm sending off an email to the breeder today asking for a refund and included her vets email and the copy of the testosterone report. The results from Cornell are:

" Testosterone 3.79 ng/ml Comments: While we do not have a reference range for goats we expect castrated goats to have testosterone levels <0.10 ng/ml."

then as a reference they put horse levels:

Stallion non breeding less than 1.0 ng/ml
Stallion Breeding Season 1.0 ng/ml - 4.0 ng/ml

He is at the high level of a breeding stallion!! 

Her vet has still not relinquished the tissue to my vet which I'm finding fishy as well. 

Thanks for all the advice, keep your fingers crossed that she does the right thing!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Well that is a shame that even the vet didn't come through. Obviously he still has testicles. Good luck with surgery and dealing with the seller.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Good luck with the breeder and I hope your little goat makes it through surgery well.


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## alpine_fan (Jan 6, 2013)

Sorry if this seems off, but as I've been reading this (after someone suggested taking her to small claims court) I thought of the daytime show judge Judy and how she gets people to admit they were lying the whole time by forcing them to face the truth...and it seems that this breeder needs someone to do that...

I hope the surgery goes well and that he comes around so he can be a great pet for your daughter.
The breeder (as others have said) more than likely has lied in the past and sold faulty animals to other people.
People may have brought it up to the breeder and the breeder could have turned it on them saying that it was their fault for improper care of the animal.
Good luck


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Abra said:


> I am no expert... But...
> 
> You paid for a wether, you should have gotten a wether.
> 
> ...


Chances are you would be limited to gettingback the cost of whaty ou paid for the goat...not the full cost of surgery.


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

Oh boy! 
Here's another long email strand for your reading pleasure. Things are getting heated which is why I'm going to take a break for the night with her. UGH! (P.S. I LOVE that she blames me for the death of the goat with pneumonia - which she also did to my face when I picked up the replacement that I paid $50 for. She insisted I must have fed him wrong, he got into something toxic, etc) I love that she blames it all on me and then when I say she does, she then says " I wasn't blaming!" Ok. I think I'm done. Here are the emails!

I sent today:
Hello again Sharon,

I'm writing to discuss the issues I have with my goat I purchased from you and the the fact that you withheld important information from me regarding that animal.

You also passed the blame of all his behaviors on either just being the nature of a wether or mishandling on our part. After speaking with numerous goat breeders I feel confident that this is not true by any means and it feels like you were being dishonest with me.

I believe you should have been upfront about the goat being a cryptorchid and notified me prior to us arriving to pick him up in case we wanted to choose another goat. You also should have informed me about the trauma to his urethra/penis during the procedure so I could have been monitoring for any issues. The fact that you charged me full price for a cull animal (every breeder I've spoken to has referred to him in this manner), is also upsetting.

My friend that came with me when we picked him up is a witness that you did not inform me of the trauma, and that you stated he was completely castrated. She also happens to be a police officer so I believe her word would hold up in court. You also did not give me the option to have the tissue removed by your vet tested. I believe that is because you did not want me to know there was doubt that he was not castrated.

Because of the length of time that has passed and my daughters attachment to him, returning him is not an option at this point. So I am now stuck with an animal that is not a wether and not a buck.
The only option I am left with is surgery that will be costly as well as the additional cost of testing the tissue removed by your vet and a blood sample for testosterone levels. There is also the risk of complications due to surgery and recovery that could incur additional expenses or he could die. Which again would cause great emotional distress to my daughter as well as the rest of the family.

Given all this information I believe we are entitled to some form of compensation.
If you would refund me the purchase price of the goat ($125) I will not pursue any other course of action. I have discussed the matter with an attorney and he feels I have a very strong case against you especially given the written replies via email that show the inconsistencies in yours and your veterinarians stories. I would rather not have to drag this out and take it to court. If I have to do so I will go after the full amount of the surgery/labs/post surgical visits etc. which at this time has been quoted between $300-$500 if all goes well. I've already paid $100 in lab fees and the attached testosterone report shows he has a VERY high level of testosterone and according to my vet the entire testicle would need to be in there or a very large portion of it. He also believes your vet may have removed a lymph node by accident and not a testicle based on her report and his conversations with her over the phone.

You may either send the refund directly to me or to the veterinary hospital that will be performing the surgery. Walpole Veterinary Hospital and you can have them put it as a credit in my account.

Walpole Veterinary Hospital
P.O. Box 666
6 Walker Road
Walpole, NH 03608

I don't know what you paid your vet to perform the operation, but you may wish to reclaim some of your money from her.

Below please find the email from your veterinarian.

From Allison Cornwall DVM

Hi Nicole. I remember the procedure well. I actually still have the "testicle" saved in a formalin jar. That apparently was not a testicle. I was very not-confident that I had gotten all of the testicle and if he is having buck-like behavior, almost certainly did not. My apologies. Sharon and I both knew there was a possibility that the testicle may not have been removed but were hoping to give the goat a chance.

Here were my notes from that day:
L testicle decended, but R not palpable. Urethra located, and what seems to be gubernaculum attached inside scrotum. Traction applied to gubernaculum until a tiny testicular structure removed and excised. It seems as if vas deferens has been removed as well, and testicle structure is compatible with testicle on cut surface, although epididymus cannot be found. Without histo on the structure removed, it is impossible to know if the structure removed is indeed absolutely the retained testicle. Saved in formalin for eval if desired.

In addition, there was a fair amount of trauma to the penis/urethra during exploration. Resflor given for both anti-inflammatory effects and for infection prevention. Owner to monitor carefully for successful urination.

She sent this reply:

please refer to my email response above. "The vet removed the undescended testicle as well as the descended. Sometimes, with an undescended testicle, it can be difficult to ensure that all of the material is removed. So there is a possibility that he is producing more testosterone than is normal for a wether.. No mixup of communication...I watched her when she removed them and related it accurately to you."
I did not "blame' the behaviors on anything...i only answered your questions about scurs and suggested potential reasons that may have been contributing to the behavioral issues you described. I told you at the time of pick up that he had one undescended testicle that had been removed along with the descended testicle..as I believed at the time. there was no intent to deceive you. I readily gave you the vet contact information and told her to fully disclose any and all information. he was healthy and doing well when you picked him up - I believe I gave your the normal instructions to watch for any signs of infection, etc...as is my normal habit and what I told you when you picked up your first wethers.

I had previously sold you 2"other" wethers, at a significant discount, that were perfectly healthy when they left here. several weeks later one of the wethers died in your care.
I felt bad for your daughter's loss.....and offered you a replacement wether at no cost whatsoever. It was the only wether I had available at the time to offer as a replacement... When i realized he had one undescended testicle, I also paid the vet to remove the undescended testicle on the "free" wether...and never asked you for a penny. 
I do not need to sell wethers and trust me, I do not make a profit of any amount...i could easily have kept this wether and put him in the freezer at less cost than providing him to you as a free wether.

I am truly sorry that it has created a problem for you. I have an excellent reputation for being forthcoming about any and all goats that I sell and have many references attesting to this. I will not issue you a refund for a goat that you did not pay for.


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

She then corrected herself "it was 3 original wethers not 2"

Here is my reply:
Yes. I'm talking about one of the original wethers. I paid $125 for each goat. I would like to know how you consider that to be "free"? No matter how much you discounted, I still paid you!

Yes. You told me there was an undescended testicle, but you also said the vet removed it. Not partially removed it, not "thinks" she got it, but removed it. 

You completely ignored the question about urinating all over himself. You also just ignored the fact that you never mentioned the tissue the vet ha saved. I never got the option!

As for the "healthy" wether. He was off from the moment I unloaded him. 
I brought him to the vet a day and a half after getting him. He died 10 days from the day I got him. He had pneumonia, he did not respond to treatment. Ultrasound showed enlarged kidneys, the vet feels 100% that something "insidious" (his words) was going on internally. 
Blaming ME for that is outrageous. The vet can confirm we did everything possible for that goat to the tune of $500. It seems to me you are the one with issues. I really wonder what else you kept from me in regards to that goat. 
You felt no need to advise me to watch for urine output or that there was trauma and you sold him 2 days later. 

I've given you an opportunity to tell the truth. Twice now. I'm not asking for the world, I'm not asking for reimbursement on vet bills that I've accrued. I'm asking you to make a situation that you completely misrepresented right. 

I'm hoping you will reconsider as I believe you have more to lose than I do. 

Nicole


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

Excellent letter, well written, very detailed, very professional.


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

Update! KoKo made it through his surgery just fine. (Yeah!!) the vet removed an entire testicle. Not just a portion of one. 
Also...I got the breeder to reimburse me the cost of the goat so that helped to pay for a portion of his medical expenses. I really didn't think I would get a penny from her, but I guess she knew she needed to make it right. Thanks for all the support everyone!! Hope no one else has to go through something like this. 

Since recovering from surgery there has been no spraying of urine, mounting of the other goats, "cleaning" himself and the odor is gone. It also appears that his beard and mane are thinning and he lost one of his "horns/scurs". It fell right off with a bit of bleeding and left a small nub. The other horn is wobbly and may also fall off at some point. But none of that could possibly be attributed to hormones according the the breeder!! LOL


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so glad Koko is ok and you got some type of reimbursement. Glad he is also now just a wether and not doing bucky things.


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

Thank you!! We are very glad too! He is a sweet boy


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

I am glad you finally got some justice and I am glad your daughter got to keep her pet goat and he is a happy wether now.


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