# Color VS Quality?



## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Has anyone else noticed that quality is being comprimised by color, in boer goats? Its like some 'breeders' will breed cull goats, JUST for their color, and totally disregaurds the quality, or lack there of, of the animal.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It happens in the Nigerian Dwarfs too. People will pay money to look at those pretty goats in the field. After a while, they learn that quality should be over prettiness but until then there will be a market for the "pretty" goats.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

yes, It is why we aren't breeding for color. I just don't care to pay more for color and I don't want to figure out which colored goats have potential and have to weed through the bad ones. But I will have to admit, I have seen a few I that I would love to have.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

The breeders that have color and quality- I respect a lot. We have one fullblood paint doe that's a proven show champion, and a paint 75% doe that's show quality, but our other 12 does are all traditional along with our buck.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

It's something you see with all animals...there are color goat, dog, horse, etc. breeders out there. As long as there's a market for color...color breeders will always be there. It's unfortunate, but nothing you can do, but try to educate buyers. I think the breeders who focus on quality animals and get color with the quality do really well. It's not something to specifically breed for, but if you've got quality animals with the color then you can work with different kinds of buyers, not just one...such as a show quality buyer and a pet buyer. Pet buyers are usually after the flashy or unique colored goats. When I sell wethers, it's usually the solids that are last to go...the flashy ones are usually reserved soon after birth...the solids take longer so I think color alone is never a good reason to breed, but incooperating color with your quality breeding program isn't a bad idea.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You can have quality with color.
It all depends on how they are bred and what lines they come from. :wink: Watch how you breed, it is like most anything, you have to have conformation in both Sire and Dam, ect. to achieve a good quality animal, color or not.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree, there is definitely a lot of quality loss out there  I know someone who has spotted boers, and they don't look very nice to me, they are just an average looking boer goat, not of quality that I've seen from these herds.
Also, I see on a lot of websites and craigslist colored goats for $800+ that are supposed to be fullbloods, but you can just look at them and tell there is no way they are a fullblood animal, from the build to the ears alone.

We have a red nubian/boer doe, the rest are traditional, and I'd love to get a colored doe next spring...but I'll be leary especially if I consider getting a fullblood vs. a percentage.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Yeah, I've seen this, but that's not to say there isn't quality colorful animals as well. What's good to know is there will always be people willing to look past a pretty face and see the quality and personality underneath.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Anytime a breeder focuses on one trait, over time the other traits are gradually sacrificed. Like good blue eyed ND milkers are more rare than brown eyed, because many people focus on breeding for blue eyes without considering dairy ability.
It works the other way too. If we ignore color completely, then it will gradually peter out. Natural selection, you know...or should I say unnatural selection? But I think that most quality breeders, even if they don't realize it, do select for color a little bit!
But everybody has a right to select for what they like. (Whether the pet market is oversaturated is another issue.)
Personally, I don't care for show ribbons. "Quality" to me is hardiness, dairy ability, and ease of kidding...and of course I do have my favorite colors, like most people do!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Absolutely. I want flashy kids and do look for bucks that would help me get that. Flash sells no matter what, especially the wethers. But I do look for milk lines and conformation first.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that flashy goats can't be quality but there are a lot more breeders out there just breeding for flash and color than they are breeding for quality. The ones who have both are very sought after.


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## ETgoatygirl (Mar 23, 2012)

*Wonderfully put!*



ksalvagno said:


> Absolutely. I want flashy kids and do look for bucks that would help me get that. Flash sells no matter what, especially the wethers. But I do look for milk lines and conformation first.
> 
> I don't think anyone is trying to say that flashy goats can't be quality but there are a lot more breeders out there just breeding for flash and color than they are breeding for quality. The ones who have both are very sought after.


KSalvagno- Wonderfully put!

I do agree that there are quite a few people out there just selling "flashy" goats. Which is too bad.. Quality should come before color, always. But I have to admit I do have my favorite colors


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

I have my favorite color, it's called traditional with a dark cap. But, I do have a paint and I just got two does that are FB with blond capes. But, the dapples and spots, I am not into so much. I think it is just a trend. The Cowboy Classic had plenty of paints and reds. I don't know if there were anyother color anomolies.


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## Goober (Aug 21, 2009)

Personally, I think there is more to it than just breeding for color. That definitely happens, and causes poorly conformed/ quality lacking goats to be bred. I think what also happens with the "hot" colors, such as dapples is cross-breeding and intentional mis-registration. You can get a lot of money for a Reg. fullblood with dapples, why not breed the doe to a loud spotted Nubian, and register the offspring as having a different sire? You can get more money quick. I think this is how so many spots (on not-so-muscular goats) showed up so suddenly. Now they are breeding them back to Boers and getting the boer look back. But I firmly believe that most, if not all, loud dappled "boers" are NOT fullbloods.


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## mmiller (Apr 3, 2012)

GTAllen said:


> I have my favorite color, it's called traditional with a dark cap. But, I do have a paint and I just got two does that are FB with blond capes. But, the dapples and spots, I am not into so much. I think it is just a trend. The Cowboy Classic had plenty of paints and reds. I don't know if there were anyother color anomolies.


I have to agree Allen I love the dark capes. With snow white bodies lol. I have a couple red heads that have a roaning in them. Its pretty but Im hoping I can get a buck that will knock that off of them.

I do have 2 paints. I bought both because they where very good goats. The second one better than the first one I bought. My first one was only the 3 goat that I had ever bought. But she gave me 2 really nice doelings. The 2nd one is better she is thicker an has a beatiful roman nose. I cant stand a roman nose on a horse but give me a boer with one an im in love lol.

I think the color in boer goats will be like paint horse. When paints first started to get popular ppl went nuts bred anything that had a spot on it. Comformation was lost till ppl started wanting a paint that could do something besides be pretty. So now we have some very flashy paints that can compete in the show ring and in the arena. The ppl who bred colored boers that have to comformation an good build goats will in the end end up on top. Right now ppl want color an it doesnt matter what its attached to. Give it time an ppl are gonna want a colored goat that can do something besides look pretty.

I bought a doe back in the late winter who had a 1 week old dappled buck on her. I was torn on whether to sell or do some dappled breeding on the side. I decided I want to just breed red heads for now. I ended up sellin him for 200 dollars an I know it was because he was a dappled. I told the buyers that I didnt know what his sire was. I had the dam there an told them that I figure if anything he was atleast 50%.


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## FaRmEr FrEaK (Jul 7, 2012)

My friends showed two red paints/dappled goats and they were beautifully structured but placed last in there class they were very disappointed that color could affect how they placed


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

My very best Boers..(99.8% Boers) are my best, solid, healthy ones and they are both paints! I don't see that paints are inferior or have to be inferior to traditional Boers.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I have wondered if judges are not partial to the traditional boers tho.. I personally like the look of paints and solids but am happy that we ended up with a few good solid paints that are quality. They also came out of good blood lines.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I have a spotted buckskin boer, but I will be the first to tell someone that her color is all from a nubian doe. Fortunately (to my inexperienced eye), she's got a good build and a big frame, and her 75% doeling was a chunky little thing. I'm hoping for color since she's bred to a red buck, but I'm not going to be disappointed if I get a traditional like her first doeling.

Breeding for color over quality is a problem in a lot of species, not just goats. People see shiny and forget form and function. I can't help but shudder at a morgan stallion listed as a "golden metallic creme" (aka palomino) with no show record, no offspring show record, no pictures under saddle and no mention of anything stud worthy other than a fancy, made-up color name. 

At the other end of the spectrum, I can easily find flashy, shiny animals that can and do perform that deserve their fuzzy bits. Color sometimes pops up when you don't expect it, it's not always the result of crossbreeding or overbreeding crap to crap, which brings me to another point.

Lately, DW, cream and splash frame have been cropping up in thoroughbreds everywhere. It's not a huge percentage, but enough that many people believe it all came from crossbreeding (the stud jumping the fence is the big conspiracy theory). However, genes can remain hidden for decades, sometimes even centuries. Buckskins and palominos get marked as bay or chestnuts, smokey blacks as plain black, and double dilutes being culled could easily make it seem there is no "natural" cream gene. The same thing is likely true with boers. We know other colors are possible, the South Africans culled anything that wasn't red-headed and white. It's believed that reds and paints carry the same genes as traditionals, but with a weaker or non-existent gene to suppress the red (might be reversed, I'm not sure). Dapples could easily be a natural boer mutation that survived in animals where it was suppressed. Obviously color sells well, so crossbreeding to obtain the dapples would not be an illogical step. 

My point is, many dappled and spotted boers are likely (and in many cases, obviously) crossbreds, but fullblood dapples are just as likely to exist, though they're probably extremely few and far between.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

I love the discussion on this topic. Its a hard thing- to incorperate bother color and quality. I am curious about how the south africans culled though. I wonder how long ago that was, and if there would be any way to find out the 'orginal' boer colors!


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

KW Farms said:


> It's something you see with all animals...there are color goat, dog, horse, etc. breeders out there. As long as there's a market for color...color breeders will always be there. It's unfortunate, but nothing you can do, but try to educate buyers. I think the breeders who focus on quality animals and get color with the quality do really well. It's not something to specifically breed for, but if you've got quality animals with the color then you can work with different kinds of buyers, not just one...such as a show quality buyer and a pet buyer. Pet buyers are usually after the flashy or unique colored goats. When I sell wethers, it's usually the solids that are last to go...the flashy ones are usually reserved soon after birth...the solids take longer so I think color alone is never a good reason to breed, but incooperating color with your quality breeding program isn't a bad idea.


 Great Post!!!


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Thanks JaLyn. :thumb:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes!!! and it is driving me crazy. A friend of mine just paid $1200 for a spotted doe, only 50%. I have a few colorful does but all I get from my buck is red heads. I just dont know how to tell her that if her red head buck is like mine she isnt getting any colorful kids. I have to admit I am getting a little bored of just red heads around here, but I cant find any other color that the body I like, or if I do they want a arm and a leg for the doe.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Jessica84 said:


> Yes!!! and it is driving me crazy. A friend of mine just paid $1200 for a spotted doe, only 50%. I have a few colorful does but all I get from my buck is red heads. I just dont know how to tell her that if her red head buck is like mine she isnt getting any colorful kids. I have to admit I am getting a little bored of just red heads around here, but I cant find any other color that the body I like, or if I do they want a arm and a leg for the doe.


I wouldn't pay that for any 50%. Ever lol. We have two paint does in our herd of 17. Our new buck is out of a solid red buck, and a paint doe and he only cost me $350.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

I understand the pet market, particularly with ND kids. However, I breed for what the animal is meant for first, (be it my meat goats or dairy goats) with good health, color is last on MY priority. JMHO


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

here's a kind of cool link on history of Boer, to include the dapple.... http://www.bowmanpress.com/history.htm


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

I've read this thread with great interest, since I have a nice dappled buckling I've been planning to use as a buck. This has also been a topic between breeders at the local sale. My herd is primarily commercial. I don't really think it should be an either or choice, I firmly believe that a careful breeder can achieve both quality and color. The problem exists when we boresight on a single trait like color and breed indiscriminately. 

I guess the best example of this would be breeders who have focused in on loin length. Based on what I've read, there has been a marked increase in this trait on market and show goats, which is great. The problem is that overall ADGs have gone down, as well as parasite resistance. When we focus too hard on one thing, others can be missed.

Whether breeding for red heads or dapples, you're breeding for a color. We just need to consider the whole picture that goes into the package. This brings me back to my dappled buckling. Yes, I like his coloring, and I would be delighted to see him pass that trait to his offspring. That alone is not enough to separate him from all the bucklings marked for market. He carries nice muscling through his body, he's well built. He had the highest overall ADG of my kids this year. He's been healthy since the day he was born, his mom had good teat confirmation, and has scored well on all FAMACHA checks. These are the factors I personally consider before any buck gets in with my does regardless of the color.


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

Ah yes the "Krazy Kolour" breeders.


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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

Just have to inflict my opinion. I don't think the black and black/white and dappled/spotted Boers are getting the attention they deserve in the show ring. I believe some judges are a bit biased when it comes to placing a spotted goat and traditional. I'm talking good quality goats here. Not ones who are just bred for color. There are some good quality spots and black/white paints (or any paint rather) out there, you just have to find them. The people who are breeding for color don't put alot of thought into their breeding because they are only in it for the money. You can easily tell the difference between the 2 types of breeders just by looking at their animals.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

The thing about the colored Boers is they sell better.I know that's a 
"duh" but it's always nice to be able to have your goats earn their keep.
Anyway, there was a red buck kid that won a big class at ABGA Nat. show
this year. It happens. Still, I can't help but wonder if the genes that
help you get away from the traditional red head white body don't also
carry some less desirable traits for meat goats. Otherwise you'd think
progress on show winning reds, blacks and dapples would be quicker.
By accident I have some colored genetics in my herd. I'm going to
try and encourage "accidental" color when possible working off these
other accidents. Even lines like RRD Ruger can throw color. Then I 
bought this girl, seriously though, I was more after her feminine look
than her color. I already know that buck I want to breed her to next
fall. A red son of Ruger a breeder friend of mine recently purchased.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I think progress has been slow primarily due to bias against non-traditional boers coupled with "low quality with color still sells for a high price" syndrome, aka KKB. Some are indeed winning, but it's an uphill battle.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:


> I think progress has been slow primarily due to bias against non-traditional boers coupled with "low quality with color still sells for a high price" syndrome, aka KKB. Some are indeed winning, but it's an uphill battle.


 Maybe, but when I'm at the show, I can usually see why the judge isn't
using the colored goat in the ring.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

One of our mahogany paint doe does well at shows. Her first show ever, a month after we purchased her, at 20 months she placed overall grand doe. So to say all colored animals don't do well at shows is incorrect. It's really in the judges eye. I've noticed that colored Wethers really get knocked down though- which is interesting because color won't affect meat quality. The daughter of a friend of ours brought her stunning paint wether to a show over the summer, and I personally thought he should have won grand- but he didn't even win his class.


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