# Buck wants to be the boss.



## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

My buck's gone through a couple phases of doing challenging behaviors to see what he can get away with, but I thought we had things pretty well settled now. But I guess I've been missing something or not doing something I should. I try to follow the advice from the article "Steps of Goat Aggression" from Pack Goat Central (sorry--don't know how to do links) & don't let him rear up around me, bump me, look at me while doing the circus pony trot with his hair up, or any of the other obvious stuff since reading that. When I got him I had no idea about bucks & made some mistakes the first year. Nobody who told me to get him ever warned me that if women are from Venus & men are from Mars, then bucks are from another galaxy!
But anyway, he's 3 and a half now, & last week when I was walking my goats he was crowding me, & when he cut sharply in front of me to make me stop or go around him I shoved him like always (isn't that what I'm supposed to do?) but this time he turned around & butted me down on the street & kept butting me. Stupid me, I'd forgotten my spray bottle, but with some yelling & kicking I got him off me, got up out of the muddy pothole he'd knocked me over in, & grabbed a stick to whack him for being so bad. My stick wasn't big enough & I ended up pinned against a parked car. I got him off me again, found a really big stick & finally got him to back down, but it wasn't easy. I got pretty hurt that day, but it all seemed to be on the parts that hit the pavement & not directly from his horns, so I guess in his mind he was just teaching me a lesson & not trying to kill me. Nonetheless, I'm really concerned that he now knows how weak I am compared to him--just a puny runt hiding behind a spray bottle!
I hope someone can answer some important questions for me:
I think I'm still missing some testing & challenging behaviors--I've been uneasy about some things he does with his horns around me. He's always rubbing & scraping them on fences & stuff, but sometimes I feel like the behaviors are for me to see--like he'll walk across the pen to come rub his horns on the fence right next to me. Should I be telling him NO & spraying him for this, & if so how can I tell when I should do it? He does it all the time when nobody's around too--I can hear him. Are there any other things that the (supposed) herd leader won't let subordinate goats do?
What can I do to show him I'm the boss once & for all? Will he continue to periodically make a power grab? Or is it hopeless now that he knows what I knew all along-that he outweighs me & is a lot stronger, & can put me on the ground without even trying? I'm 54, 5'1" & 120 pounds.
What's the best way to fight off a big goat with big horns, especially if you're already on the ground? I'm not strong enough to pull his legs out from under him, & he didn't seem to be bothered by having his ear or nose grabbed. Also the ear is too close to the horns. I will never forget my spray bottle after what happened (I was sore for days) but what if I drop it or something?
Sorry this is long, but I wanted to give a clear picture of the situation so you could know what advice to give. He always behaves if he sees I have my sprayer, & always acts ruder when he sees I don't--but he never butted me before.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I have a cattle prod. With 16 full size dairy bucks in pen, I'm not taking any chances. Each one has been zapped once. Now they stay back, especially if I have anything in my hands, a stick, riding crop or even a section of garden hose.

Others may disagree, but, I can't take the chance of getting injured. I am alpha, all 5'3" of me! 

My pushy bucks only get led with a training collar. The ones with the metal fingers that help remind them to behave. Keep it close to their jaw, further down the neck doesn't work. A rope halter also works. Where the head goes, the body follows. 

If he continues hurting you, maybe you might look for a younger buck. Don't get injured over an animal!


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Thanks for the response! I agree, I don't want to get injured, & if an animal seriously injures a human it doesn't usually end well for the animal either. So if I really feel I have to put vinegar in my spray bottle, I do & I certainly don't feel guilty about it. The problem is, he only thinks he has to behave if he sees I have the bottle.

So it sounds like you have TONS of buck experience & a very big farm! What do you think about the horn rubbing behavior?

When I walk the goats Sam isn't actually on a leash at all--I have to put the leash on the queen & the others follow her. They won't follow Sam. & trying to walk the 2 of them on leashes just gets us all tangled up in horns & leashes. The breed is known for horns.


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## mariella (Feb 23, 2017)

I don't have a ton of buck experience myself but I will try and help
No NEVER shove a buck that is a challenge!!!
I once had a buck that would charge me and on day he knocked me over(I am 5'3 and 155lbs) But I had put a lag ribbon(Just a small rope tied to his lag) on his lag and all I had to do was pull it over his head and push on him as soon as he was on the ground I sat(not all my weight) on his neck until he stopped flailing(not dead he just gave up)as soon as he gave up I released him
The horn rubbing is marking Him doing it with you around is him showing you that is his space 
I wound personally suggest you get a new buck mostly because he is getting older and will start getting rough with the girls 
Get a bottle baby buck I have two bucks that were raised on the bottle and neither one has ever shown aggression toward me or any body else 

I hope this helps


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I have seen this in alpacas and goats, males hit 3 years old and the hormones seem to kick into high gear. It won't get better. If you want to keep him, I'd get the cattle prod.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Cattle prod/Hot Shot is my tool of choice. I let HIM walk into it with the warning "Get back!"
It only takes a couple of times. And I always carry it unless he needs to be collared & worked on. And this takes two people with my guys.
In that case, if you can get a good grip on his beard you have him.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Oh dear! If I had a buck behaving this way I'd go for a Hot Shot or some shock collar treatment. One of my horned wethers attacked me once when I came home smelling like a buck and I got him a shock collar. It didn't completely solve his aggression issues, but he never butted me again. 

I also never take a horned goat anywhere without a halter. You don't have enough control with a collar, and the only way to control his horns is to control his head. I always put a short catch strap on each halter so when I'm walking the goats without a leash I can still grab them quickly. 

The leg rope idea is interesting. That could work very well for an aggressive goat if you need to flip him but don't have help. Best of luck to you! This isn't an easy thing to deal with.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree cattle prod! My buck challenged me ONCE! He thought it was cute, I thought it hurt. At the time all I had was a small 2X4 so hit him with it and when he laughed at me and came at me again I said forget this crap and went and got my hot shot (cattle prod). He went on his back legs and went at me again and I nailed him good and a few times for good measure. 
I know a lot of people see it as mean but the way I look at it is mean once to continue to have a good life or go down the road and either end up in the freezer or a chance of a really cruddy life. He challenged me as a yearling and just turned 6 years old so it stuck with him


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## PB_Nubians (Jan 17, 2017)

If you place a small piece of lead behind his left ear he will not bother you ever again. Plus he will taste real good on the table. No goat is worth being injured. Period! Bottle raised or dam raised does not matter. The aggression is built into some of them. I have a bottle baby buck now that is 2 and at a year and a half he would physically confront me with intent to do harm. Testosterone can make even a bottle buck crazy. I am not a small guy so I did not have to worry about being pushed around and will never own a buck with horns or a doe for that matter. He and I came to an understanding that he is not the herd leader and he knows it. He still is stubborn and will vocalize and pace when I am in the pen with him and the does but will not come towards me until I call his name. We have a working arrangement at this point. That's why he is not in the freezer. Do not keep an animal around that you can not trust or feel safe around. The point of having goats is to enjoy them not fear them. It ruins the experience. Good luck and God Bless.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Well, in this case I don't think I would suggest putting him down. This is a rare heritage breed and even if he had to be rehomed where he could be managed differently (like away from people) he would still be worth keeping alive for the genetics. I personally don't see the horns as being the issue here. I have two bucks who were dehorned, and I honestly think their big nasty scurs are more dangerous than if they had proper horns. Besides, horns are part of the breed standard for this goat, kind of like Texas Longhorns--you don't disbud a Texas Longhorn calf.  

Anyway, I got to thinking about your buck's situation and I have to ask if he has any other male goat companions. If not, I wonder if he needs another boy to clack horns with to relieve his excess energy and testosterone. Hitting fences may be a sign that he's frustrated and needs a friend (or enemy) that will hit back. Unfortunately at his age, introducing another male goat into his life could be quite risky.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. Wow, I thought it was pretty bad but you guys seem to think it's even worse than that! I thought we already went through the 3 year old thing & worked it out, but I guess not. At least he hasn't attacked me again--yet.

Mariella, I think you're right about his horn rubbing being a territorial marking thing-normal bucks have those scent glands around the base of their horns. San Clementes actually don't have those (& just smell like pee, not pee + buck stink) but I doubt that makes any difference to Sam. I was leaning towards that being it, but I didn't want to punish him unfairly if I was wrong. So from now on I'll say NO & spray him if he does it by me--or do you think he shouldn't be allowed to do it at all if I'm in the pen with them? I need to be consistent, so I want to be sure of what I'm doing.

What exactly is a lag ribbon? Can it stay on them all the time, or is it easy to put on? & do you think I should stop following the advice about pushing him, & spray him instead? I only ever pushed him from the side--I know not to push a goat's head.

For those suggesting the Hot Shot--are there advantages to having one of those over a spray bottle (with diluted or straight vinegar) as long as the bottle makes him behave? Like maybe being in more pain will make him remember better? Maybe that's why I think I've taken care of his attitude & then it comes back, because it didn't hurt enough to make a permanent impression? Do the batteries give any warning that they're almost dead? Does it weigh less than a small spray bottle? How close do I have to be to zap him-the spray bottle can go 5 feet or so.

Damfino--is it safe to leave a halter on a goat all the time? Or are they as dangerous as collars? I'm not sure how hard it would be to get a halter on him a few times a week for their walk to their brush eating job. He's very very active, climbing into trees & attacking fences, so I think there's a good chance he'd snag it if I just left it on him. He doesn't have a collar, & if I have to tie him to the fence to do his feet I loop the rope around the base of his horns to immobilize them as much as possible. When we're walking I rely on a pocket full of peanuts & my spray bottle to manage him--along with having his favorite girl on a leash. I just forget the bottle every once in a while, & he notices it. While he's never butted me before, his behavior is for sure always slightly more obnoxious if I'm not "armed."

He doesn't have a male companion. He lives with the 2 does unless I have to put him in Goat Jail, which is far too small for 2 goats. It's only big enough for short stays, not for him to live in. I don't have room for more goats really--though I've thought of getting a 3rd doe. I've seen some people give their buck a punching bag, but I don't have a strong tree limb to hang one from. Can you think of something that could hang on the fence?

Rehoming a buck every three years sounds like a pain--I'd really like to get this worked out with him. He's usually friendly & fairly sociable for his breed, & makes really nice kids. Even with them being a really rare breed (under 800 goats) bucklings are sometimes hard to find buyers for. I'm not sure if I could sell grown bucks at all.

Jessica--I agree 100%, better to be "mean" than to let him go completely bad, so he ends up as the guest of honor at a Mexican barbecue. I'm thinking I will look into the Hot Shot--sounds like you don't have to use them that often! If your 6 year old buck is OK, maybe there's still hope for Sam. The bucks of this breed are supposed to be pretty mild mannered. I think a lot of the problem is that I was learning as I went along, & some behaviors that started around age one I misinterpreted & allowed to go unchallenged for a few months--he's my first buck. I hate for him to have to suffer because I didn't know what I was doing.

Thanks again for all the advice & if anyone has any more I'm very grateful!


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## Oreosmom (Nov 19, 2016)

Wow Catharina, he's a beautiful buck. The thing about a spray bottle is it isn't actually acid water. Oreo my mama goat, only 30 lbs will take a hard straight shot of water w/vinegar between the eyes to push herself past me for the sound of a potato chip bag. So yr larger than you buck that usually would stop at being sprayed doesn't once more. Perhaps your not the only human target? The odd runner with his dog? Could be his next hormonal rage target. That prod or stun gun could save a life, and it could be yours! When goats are in that rage it takes a bit more due to hormones and adrenaline to subdue their actions. The adrenaline can make them numb to sprays of vinegar, and smacking them with anything short of a 2by4 will get their attention.You can't quit loving on him though. And after alpha is re-established most likely he will be that goat you knew, but never turn yr back on.:ram::butting::butting::crazy::ram:


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## Oreosmom (Nov 19, 2016)

Catharina.. is this your goat?? :dazed: lol couldn't help it when I saw it.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Oreosmom said:


> Catharina.. is this your goat?? :dazed: lol couldn't help it when I saw it.


He's a handsome devil, isn't he? :evil: I feel like an abused wife--I just can't stop loving him! & I lied to my hubby about how I got all the scrapes & bruises. If you look at PSIKeep Ranch's website you can see his sire--when they get older the horn spread can be 5'. They used to be victims of trophy hunting when still on San Clemente Island. Apparently when they die there are some people in Germany who'll pay big bucks for the horns, to make Krampus costumes!

Sounds like I better get a Hot Shot... He hasn't had issues with strangers yet (they don't try & tell him what to do, or mess with his ladies) but you just never know what a goat will do next. Or a human for that matter--what if a neighbor kid let himself into their pen while I was gone? He certainly keeps me on my toes--never a dull moment!


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Here he is at their brush eating job--the one we walk to. He's on top of a pile of logs 3 or 4 feet high. He takes his work very seriously!

I think he looks like looks like a bear with horns in this picture.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

No, it's not safe to leave a halter on 24/7 unless you can find a leather one that fits very well. Even then I don't recommend it. I only put them on when I'm working with the goat or taking them somewhere. I train mine to like having a halter put on by rewarding with treats each time. However, I start when they're youngsters (6 months to a year). I don't know how hard it would be to train your guy at his age. I've haltered a few wild, full-grown goats to trim feet for people who could no longer manage their bucking, butting beasts. But I'm pretty good at distracting the goat then slipping the halter on fast and getting out of the way until he calms down and quits shaking his head. I also own goat halters in several sizes so I have no problem getting the right fit. 

If I wanted to halter train a goat like yours I would probably lash his horns to the fence like you've been doing. Then I would give him a couple of treats to calm him down before putting the halter on and rewarding again. For a goat that had proven himself aggressive I might slip a 2-foot PVC pipe over the lead rope so he couldn't whack my arm or get too close to me. Then I'd start pushing and pulling him around and letting him know that he's kind of at my mercy. He'd get rewarded for walking nicely along but I'd be very firm about making him move in whatever direction I told him. 

I find that halters are indispensable for handling any big, strong goat with horns, and usually they become pretty submissive once they realize I have control of their head. The hard part in your case would probably be training him to accept the halter in the first place. If you attempt halter training, make sure to wear eye protection and be very careful of yourself. Good luck!


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I really appreciate your advice, Damfino. I was hoping you'd respond when I first posted--I think we have the same thoughts about goat behavior but you have LOTS more experience than I do. I really appreciate you mentioning eye protection--I do worry about getting poked in the face--his horns are as long as my arms! 

When I was cleaning the pen yesterday & he started horn rubbing by me I gave him a warning squirt (not in the face) & he immediately stopped & went away. I had the distinct feeling that he knew what I was telling him--so I guess he was doing it for me to see, & now he finally got my answer. Later he was doing it further away from me & when I sprayed him he seemed to not "get" it--so he & I will have to figure this out together. He does horn activities really often, so I think he has other reasons, as well as some real need, to do it. I just need to figure out when he's doing it too close to me, or for me, I guess. Maybe if he's looking at me, the way they do when they rear or do the circus pony trot with their hair up?

I got a small salt block that hangs (swings) on a rope today. Seems like that should give them all something to do. They have lots of climbing stuff also.

Thanks again for everyone who responded so far, & I welcome any further ideas! :ram:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I do think it's the pain and the remembering. I've had my hot shot with me when I fed grain and that was well over a year ago when I stopped feeding grain and they all remember that thing and stay way back if I have it. There are 2 different attachments, one for cattle, I want to say about 4' long and one for pigs which is about 1-2' long. I like the pig one with the does and grain because it was just right there for when they were trying to knock my legs out from under me but I think I would go with the cattle one, that gives you a good distance with your arm. I agree though I wouldn't turn your back on him again after this. It took me a LONG time to trust mine and it wasn't even all the bad of a battle lol. Someone had mentioned a command as well and that is a good idea. Although my buck no longer is mean to me he gets in trouble for other things, ripping the fence apart, sometimes food aggressive and all I have to do is say his name in a very mean voice and he stops. Which also has me remembering this mean buck we had when I was a kid. He was a nasty snot and we had a protective dog of us. So when he got nasty we would yell 'bill dog' and that buck would take off. Even after a year of that dog passing we could yell his name and he would knock it off. 
But I would nip it in the butt, any head cocking, hair up anything like that and I would show him who is boss. Extreme? Maybe but let's think about a herd. One that challenges he king/queen and what does he/she do? They beat the crap out of them. Now I know this sounds like something a animal abuser would say but that's how they learn respect, dominance, and their place. It's with every animal there is


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Thanks Jessica! I liked the funny story about Bill Dog! The store I went to didn't have Hot Shots so I put 100% vinegar in my sprayer because his favorite lady's in heat. I know what you mean about the head cocking. Some stuff he does, I just am not sure about though. He has a horn display pose that he uses for dogs--puts his head down & tilts his horns forward. Sometimes when I'm working in their pen if I bend down he'll put his head down by mine & I don't know if he's just getting a better look or if we're showing our horns to each other or what. It made he nervous the first couple times he did it, but he didn't butt me. He does like to watch me work. He'll come stand beside me quietly & companionably. But he doesn't like shovels, so if I'm digging he stands there & supervises the shovel so it doesn't misbehave. He shows his horns to each shovelful of dirt--so funny. He has a lot of personality. He seems to have his hair up a lot (maybe out of excitement?)--like for eating or walking to the brush job, or the pen being cleaned--so should I spray him (or zap him-once I get my goat zapper) only if he looks at me with his hair up? Usually all I have to do if he's crowding me at the gate or at feeding is hold the spray bottle up.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I can't say I have much experience with bucks. I have lots of experience with horses, including stallions, but most of my goat experience is with large horned pack wethers, so any advice I might have with bucks is guarded. 

It's funny you should mention the shovel. Our aggressive pack wether (our first goat who unfortunately got off to a bad start) always had the same fixation with any tool in my hand. Our goat displays all of the same behaviors you describe--the raised hackles, the horn tilt, fixating on tools, bending down to micromanage my work. It's all very familiar body language. Mine also has a fascination with gloves and wants to chew them, bite them, and blub at them. He gets very "bucky" when there are gloves and/or tools involved. I have to lock my guy up when I'm operating power tools because he would probably stick his nose in a chainsaw if he thought I was doing it wrong. 

I wish I could give you advice on how to cure this problem. Unfortunately I never have been able to and it's come down to just managing the behavior, preventing it from escalating, and doing a better job with our younger goats. I bought a shock collar to discourage his most aggressive behaviors, but I found that when I tried to "sweat the small stuff" (like punishing raised hackles) it made him worse. So I don't provoke fights, but if he brings it to me I'm ready for him. I don't have to use the shock collar often but it's nice to have on hand for reminders. Usually just wearing it is enough to help him with his manners. A cattle prod would do the same thing. I'd like to have my goat's respect but if I can't have that then I must at least have his obedience. These guys are too big and too dangerous to be allowed to call the shots.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

One reason I think my guy became aggressive was because he spent his first five years living with horses but no other goats. He would try to head-butt and play, but this only made the horses angry or scared. He needed another goat he could play and fight with. I've noticed as we raise our younger wethers that when one of them does a horn-tilt or brushes us on passing and is reprimanded, they never turn and give us a "look" (well one did it one time). Usually if they have some built-up energy or frustration they end up taking it out on each other with some horn-clacking instead of turning on the humans. In other words, they have an outlet. Our first goat, being an "only goat," did not have a healthy social life even though he had friends in the horse herd. He needed something besides inanimate objects to butt heads with. This might be something to keep in mind for future boys. Two may be easier, less aggressive, and less destructive than one.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think I would start with just the basic not being mean, if he hooks, butts you or comes at you get him and then work on his respect of your space. I've never had one do what your explaining and I would hate for him to be skittish or hard to handle. But after he realizes your not to be messed with do the same thing as with the bottle, show it to him and tell him to back off when he makes you feel uncomfortable. Your calling the shots. Like the little guy I have he does this thing where he cuts me off when I'm taking his feed to the feeder. He's not being mean at all but he has nicked me with his horns on accident and that's something I don't like so even though he's not being mean at all I simply don't like it


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Thanks again. It's really helping me to talk in detail about the different behaviors. I'm one of those people who really need things spelled out.

Yesterday it was time for Sam to get his apron back on. My dear husband kindly agreed to hold Sam while I fitted it. Hubby is 6'1" & he can hold Sam's head perfectly still by the horns. Sam pretty much submitted to him & I had no trouble from him while I fiddled with the straps & clips. It would have been such an ordeal without my husband. Sam really isn't a super big goat, though he outweighs me. His fluff & horns make him seem bigger than he is. Using the girth measuring tape he's 135 or 140 pounds, though the tape specifies it's only for dairy goats, which these guys are not. Too bad my hubby has no interest in goats & doesn't like to be asked to help with them. I try to ask as seldom as possible, so that he won't resent it too much when I REALLY need him.


Here's Sam with his 2 week old daughters. He's already tried to molest them, yuck!


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Do you use dog shock collars on goats?

Also,what's the best way to stop a goat attack, or defend yourself?


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## Oreosmom (Nov 19, 2016)

I noticed my little ones really hate when I use the spray bottle on their feet, esp. w/vinegar.seems better then just squirting them randomly. There are very few toys out for goats, thinking that he is too old to get a butting buddy. But there are a few things that my goats seem to love to play with. We have a small horse ball, the kind with the handle, I have seen them butting it around, snagging it on their little horns. We've also given them cardboard boxes that we've closed up with apple pieces, they push around and try all sort of antics to get to the apples. But the thing they love the most is three little balloons all tied together bouncing in the yard with the wind. I tie a strong thread or yarn to the deck and to them so they don't get eaten after they pop the balloons but the fun they have.. they run from it, build the courage to follow it, eventually they catch it and pop the balloons one but one, each pop scares them off, but they keep trying until they all are popped, it keeps them busy most of a day, Maybe your big guy could use a stress reducing toy? Being season time for many does he can take his aggression out on a toy when there aren't other little goats to molest! Have your camera ready, they get pretty funny with balloons!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I really think a wether buddy would help with this...he needs some companionship that he can get his energy out with.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I wish I had space for more goats...:sigh: All he has are his 2 ladies...the advice I got on starting this herd may not have been too realistic...

I've seen the balls with the handles. The balloon idea sounds fun too. Their swinging salt block hasn't interested any of them as much as I'd hoped. I'm also figuring out how to make a cabbage tether ball. Aside from things to climb on, they have stiff brushes to rub against & a big dead tree. Wouldn't something like what football players use to practice crashing into be great? I have no idea what they're called--a big padded thing on a metal rack?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

catharina said:


> Do you use dog shock collars on goats?
> 
> Also,what's the best way to stop a goat attack, or defend yourself?


I use a dog shock collar with the longer prongs attached (a male goat's neck hair is thick!).

I'm not sure there's a "best" way to stop a goat attack except get out of there as quick as you can. If a goat were savaging me and I couldn't get away I would probably grab him by the beard so I could try to get his head under control. We once used a "wheelbarrow" technique to move a large, wild buck into a horse trailer. We grabbed his hind legs and pulled him where we wanted, but it wasn't easy. He was huge and very strong! But at least he couldn't reach us with his head. He didn't have horns, but that didn't matter much. He was easily strong enough to break a leg if he hit someone.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I was afraid to retreat & let him think he won! I figured things would get really bad then. That's why I chased him down with a stick too, afterwards. 

I'm not strong enough to hang on to his hind legs, but I'll remember the beard.

What with a few people suggesting another goat (music to a goat addict's ears!!) I went out & measured my space & compared it to space requirements I found on a google search. I have 95 square feet of sheltered space (not counting 3 dogloos) but only 380 of out door space at my house. Their brush job is on an acre but they only go there a couple times a week. They're kind of smallish goats--the does are about 65 & 75 pounds & Sam is 135 or a bit larger. According to Goats for Dummies I have enough room for another goat or even 2, & goatgyan in India says I can have about 8! But for other websites I have too much indoor space but they want 130 to 300 square feet out door space per goat. Just looking at the goat pen, they don't look crowded to me but I can't quite imagine another goat in there either--especially if the space was divided in halves for boys & girls.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Oreo's mom-I never thought to spray feet! I'll try it next time somebody needs spraying. I usually aim for areas with less hair unless they're being really awful & need to be sprayed in the face.

I looked at the balls with handles at the feed store today. They were $25--a lot of money if they don't play with it.

I also looked at hot shot things (not sure which brand) & they were $74....


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

The problem with a shock collar is you have to get it on him and also take it off to charge it. I have used one on my buck when he was told aggressive with the does. He would be good while I was out there and turn on the girls as soon as I went in the house so I would sit by the window and get him when he was mean. Also used it on a doe that jumped fences but never really got threw her thick head on it. I don't think in this case it would be the best option. Honestly he has things to beat up on and ladies to keep him company, I think it's a respect thing going on


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Jessica84 said:


> Honestly he has things to beat up on and ladies to keep him company, I think it's a respect thing going on


I think so too--he only behaves for the spray bottle. There's something I've not been doing & I need to fix it. Maybe it was just letting him rub his horns close to me...but I feel like there's something else, too. I don't ever back down from him, & he's always known he can't jump on humans or push them with head or horns--I feel like I've covered the obvious stuff. I probably need to be more aware of my body language. onder:

I'm still pricing Hot Shots, and hoping it won't end up like the spray bottle, where he checks to see if I'm "armed" before deciding how to behave. I'm also still trying to figure out some kind of "punching bag" toy for him. The main challenge is, there's nothing to suspend things from.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think he simply has a hair up his butt and he's trying to show you he is boss. With my buck he was a bottle baby so I didn't put up with anything from him, no jumping or butting even as a play and he still challenged me. I don't even remember what it was but I did something that he just decided he was gonna put me in my place. I don't think you did anything wrong, I think he just wants to be king and so far you have just simply kept him at bay but not hit home that you are king and queen all rolled into one lol


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Exactly....sounds like I need to bite the bullet & buy a hot shot. I wish there was something else that would get the message across once & for all, but I guess if the spray bottle was going to do it, it would have already. (I'm also concerned if the neighbors saw me use it--the goats are very popular. Due to their walking to their brush job, just about everyone knows them & likes them a lot.)


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

You know what I would do before you go with the hot shot......try hiding the spray bottle and when he pushes the line, and I mean even looks at you funny say something like stop it and then pull out the water spray. See if that kinda gets the point across that at any time you can spray him in the face. I would like to say oh yeah you won't have to carry that hot shot with you without a doubt but I honestly don't know. I don't have to do it with gizmo, and I used it once on mister when he was just giving me the look and that's been it but just because it worked for them doesn't mean 100% on yours......unless your ok carrying the thing around if he starts up again. I really think it will get the point across but I can't say that without one bit of doubt, know what I mean?


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

AWESOME IDEA!:fireworks:

Next time we walk to their job, I'll let him think I forgot it again. For sure he'll start doing the crowding & cutting in front of me--if he doesn't, that means I didn't hide the bottle well enough. I will no doubt be able to put that plan in action. Thanks so much! :smile:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Hopefully it works! If it doesn't though I would for sure go with the hot shot :/ I would imagine he would probably test you out a few times to see if you really have it so don't forget it!......I would totally forget it


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

What do you think of this? Parker McCrory Mfg. Co. It's about $30 & weighs 1.5 pounds.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Jessica84 said:


> Hopefully it works! If it doesn't though I would for sure go with the hot shot :/ I would imagine he would probably test you out a few times to see if you really have it so don't forget it!......I would totally forget it


I know! I can't remember anything! I recently got an apron with big pockets & I keep the sprayer in there. Peanuts in the other pockets. That helps some--I can't put the sprayer down & walk off without it.

The apron looks really stupid, but I probably didn't look too great lying in the road with a goat on top of me either! /:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh my gosh! I shouldn't laugh but you made me laugh.....how terrible!!! 
Ok that thing there probably lacks a good punch BUT your gonna have to be pretty close to him. Without being offensive, if your fairly fast on your feet I think this would work. The first time you get him I can see it going one of two ways, basically fight or flight. I have my mine on flight, I have never seen a animal so anti electric, or he might try to hook at first because this is something new and it is just something that has a hold of him. Really I think this is will work but watch yourself for that first zap. The good thing though is at least it's short. I have missed and gotten myself a few times with the long cattle end, see now you can laugh at me lol


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I better find something stronger then--last thing I want to do is just make him mad! & nobody who knows me would EVER use the phrase "fast on her feet!" I would also be almost certain to zap myself, now that you mention it. Total klutz. So maybe a little bigger, but not too long? That one only uses 2 batteries--one with more batteries would give a bigger shock I guess?


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

I hope you don't try to use it on him for the first time when you're walking them down the street, since you don't know how he will react, but test it out at home first.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol no I only got myself because it was the cattle one and it was so long and I was trying to get the girls to give me my space while pouring grain. I have the big attachment one and that's why I ended up using. I don't think it will make him mad as in seriously attack I was meaning more like trying to use his horn to knock it off but see how many watts or whatever they use to measure the out put is to a hot shot. I know with the hot shot it was total get the heck away with that. 
But I do agree with trying it out at home, that way if he takes off it's in his little pen and not out in the open with nothing to stop him


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

catharina said:


> I was afraid to retreat & let him think he won! I figured things would get really bad then. That's why I chased him down with a stick too, afterwards.


I don't blame you! I'm glad you were able to "win the day". What I meant was, if you're in danger from a buck that won't back down, it's better to retreat than to end up hurt. It's important to keep in mind that the hardest you can hit back may only be hard enough to make him madder. Protecting yourself in the first place (be it with a spray bottle, hot shot, etc.) is better than getting in a situation you may regret. That was the first thing we learned when handling stallions--you can't ever take them for granted no matter how well trained and gentle they are, and it's better to swallow your pride and beat a hasty retreat than to get yourself seriously injured. If you must fight a battle, do it when you not only have the means to defend yourself but the means to win.

Best of luck with your boy! I hope he settles down for you. He's probably somewhat frustrated because the girls aren't interested right now and he has no suitable buddy to spar with. But that doesn't mean he can take his aggressions out on you!


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

laurelsh said:


> I hope you don't try to use it on him for the first time when you're walking them down the street, since you don't know how he will react, but test it out at home first.


For sure! I don't want the neighbors to see me do that either-this is NOT a farming community & people would be horrified.:shocked:


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