# CL - discussion.



## AmyBoogie

Why are so many completely hysterical when it comes to Caseous Lymphadeniti? Is it that it's incurable?

I've been reading articles around the web and trying to learn.

There are so many people asking about abscess on their goats and they're all getting the answer, "Its probably CL, you should cull" when there are clear indicators that some are not. Sure, advocate getting the goat tested when there is an abscess but some of it seems a little over board. Or am I not worried enough?

I've also read that something like 80% of goats are infected.  That means most of us are likely to have an infected goat now or we will.

Lance and test or treat the abscess with Formalin seem to be the only treatments.
No vaccine but you can get one made from the CL that is native in your heard for the low low price of $850 and even then, it still may not be effective.

No one wants this to be in their herd but it seems like it's relatively unavoidable at some point if you are ever in contact with goats at a show or bring new animals into your herd, so having a plan of attack is a good idea, right? What is that plan of attack?

Pasteurize any milk from a goat that might have CL or that definitively does....but why would you want to keep milking a CL positive goat?

Does CL pass from mother to child in the womb? Nothing was mentioned about breeding a CL positive goat probably because course of action is culling but it seems only normal that a goat may be found to have CL after she was pregnant.

Its an interesting subject and I don't claim to have any answers. I know many of you experienced people have opinions and probably a plan of attack if something happens in your herd. I'd love to hear opinions or discussion on this. It doesn't look like a vaccine is going to happen any time soon so it's something we are stuck dealing with.


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## ksalvagno

Actually there is a CL vaccine. It isn't labelled for goats but goat breeders do use it.

Humans can get CL. You need to take precautions if you are lancing an abscess.

There are also a lot of breeders out there who don't care that their herd has CL, you won't find too many of them on places like TGS.

CL gets into the soil, on the wood of the barn, etc and stays there for many years, for the possibility of infecting other goats for years.


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## Parttimepotter

When I first had goats, ten years ago, my milk doe got a lump in her neck. I thought this was strange, but maybe she got cut and it was infected. Some time later we bought a few other goats and soon I noticed they too developed a knot in their neck or head. I found this curious but was not overly concerned. Eventually the goats all died one by one, mysteriously. 

Now I am getting back in the goat game, but I have read up on all the diseases. Having read about CL and the symptoms of it, I have been EXTREMELY surprised by the amount of people who answer "oh, I don't test". When I was younger I didn't know any better, had never heard of any CL or CAE or anything else. But now that I know, I can't imagine not testing. 

When I buy a goat that hasn't been tested or has, but I couldn't see the paperwork, they go into an isolation pen. We draw the blood and send it off, if they come back good then they can mingle with the herd. If they come back positive.... it's freezer camp. 

Doing this I have created a herd that it's CAE, CL and johnes free. It's hard and I've lost a lot of money.... but I think it's worth it too know your goats are all healthy.

Albeit, I don't show our travel to farms that don't test... but I am also curious how people with CL free goats can travel to shows without risking so much?


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## AmyBoogie

I've read about the Sheep vaccine for CL and it's use on goats. I've heard that it's not recommended because it caused issues in some of the goats that tested with it and that they have no idea if it's effective. I read as many articles as I could find on it but they all said exactly the same thing. Though it seemed like if you had a large herd, it might be smart to use it anyway as a "just in case"

I'd like to test my goats but I've heard the blood test isn't accurate. 
When we got the goats they were tested CAE and Johnes free but not CL tested because the breeder didn't believe it was an accurate test. Studies I've found online talk about a lot of false results. I can draw blood, but I have no idea how to get it tested or even how to read that some goat may have the antibodies but not the actual disease. There was one case I read of a farmer that brought new goats in the herd and separated them, tested and it came back pos but they thought it might be antibodies so they held them and retested at intervals and decided that the new goats had antibodies but not the disease. 

I've read that humans getting CL is rare but the cases that it's happened is that its direct open wound contact with the infection in the blood or puss....and then there was some vague backhanded reference I found of milk infecting humans. Information generally said to pasteurize milk but nothing about actual case evidence of humans getting sick. Not that I don't believe it can happen. I am wondering how a kid can be born to a doe that has CL and not get it. They can't right? This suggests those that are breeding CL positive animals are just creating more babies that have it and then they all have a much shortened life span.

So in reading about the formalin treatment, that seems all well and good to get rid of the abscess in a clean way, but the goat still has CL. She/he still has a shortened life. Nothing ever was mentioned if CL was painful. Does a goat live out the rest of their life in pain? Is it better to put them down?

I know. so many questions. Not that I expect answers. I guess to some degree, I'm thinking out loud. This is an interesting/difficult subject that I think will touch most us at some time.


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## Parttimepotter

Well are any of the tests really accurate? It all seems like a kinda soft science to me....

I've seen the CAE test come back positive because the goat was stressed when blood was drawn and negative when it was calm. 

I've seen the CL test come back positive and when the goat is butchered out there is no sign of CL anywhere.

It doesn't make any sense!


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## milkmaid

Personally, I think CL has been hyped up too much...but then, I've never had it in my herd, so what do I know? 
A positive doe can produce negative kids, since the disease is only spread through the pus from an abscess. Of course if the doe had an abscess in the uterus, I suppose it could infect the kid.
Many goats get one abscess and then recover, effectively having been vaccinated. Obviously, these are the ones whose immune systems can handle the bacteria. I see no reason to cull a healthy goat because it had contracted, and recovered from, some "freaky" disease. But of course it's hard to tell if the goat really recovered, or if the abscesses just "went internal" as they call it. I really wonder if titer counts can tell if a "recovered" goat has internal abscesses or not.

If I had the disease in my herd, first I would do a lot of research, and then I would probably cull only the goats that didn't recover quickly. Of course I wouldn't sell a sick goat, and I would be honest to buyers about any recovered ones.

Oh, and the reason some people don't test is because the test is not very accurate. I only test when an abscess pops up (which happened once - it wasn't CL.)

This is just my opinion after all my reading. I defer to the opinions of those who have actually experienced it.


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## SCRMG

There is in fact a goat vaccine. It was just approved for use about a year ago, so there is very little on the internet about it. Some states (like mine, still require vet approval for it's use) but a lot of states sell it over the counter. You can find it at Jeffers, and if you have questions about it, I've actually found them to be very helpful. It's made by Texas Vet Labs.

The primary method of transmission for CL is direct contact with the pus from an abscess. While humans can get it, like you said, it's very rare. Milk is only an issue if there is an open abscess in the udder, and once again, this is rare. The disease is not transmitted in utero.

I actually have several CL positive goats. It's a long story on how I ended up with it, but I firmly believe it can be managed. There are several "rules" I have come up with and stick by when it comes to managing the disease. I have positive goats that have lived very long, healthy, productive lives with the disease and this is why I have never resulted to blanket culling.

I vaccinate everyone annually. The vaccine does nothing for a CL positive goat, but since I don't test, it covers the ones who don't have it. I keep records on all my goats, and keep track of every abscess. I have some goats that only develop a single abscess in their entire life, others seem to get one a year. If a goat gets more than one a year, I cull it. If a goat starts to show signs of potential internal abscesses (unexplained loss of weight, a lot of coughing when appearing otherwise healthy) I cull it. 

A quick word on Formalin. You will run in to mixed opinions on this treatment. It's risky, and all about timing. If you treat a goat with this method you need to make sure you do so after the abscess is fully formed, but before all the hair falls off and the skin is thin. At this point, there is a wall between the goat's body and the abscess that should keep the formalin out of the goat's system. If you do it earlier, or slip with the needle and get Formalin into a goat, the goat will suffer very painful nerve damage. When used properly, this can be a very clean, effective method for dealing with an abscess. My biggest fear with it has always been residue issues. I have used it on my goats, but when I do, I mark their flies "not for human consumption". These are breeding goats who will live and die with me. If I decide they should be culled for whatever reason, they are put down and buried. 

Over time, I have seen a reduction in new cases and abscesses in my herd. In time, I hope with effective management, my herd will be clean.


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## AmyBoogie

Parttimepotter said:


> Well are any of the tests really accurate? It all seems like a kinda soft science to me....
> 
> I've seen the CAE test come back positive because the goat was stressed when blood was drawn and negative when it was calm.
> 
> I've seen the CL test come back positive and when the goat is butchered out there is no sign of CL anywhere.
> 
> It doesn't make any sense!


None of it makes sense to me which is why I started this thread. There is good information out there but a lot of conflicting stuff too. I'm trying to make heads or tails of it and see what I should test my new herd for. It's all very confusing and knowing the test might be false one way or the other makes me have no confidence in it.

I will still test but I am likely to take the results with a grain of salt and retest regardless of the way the tests come out.


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## enchantedgoats

we always isolate and test for johnes, cl and cae , always. we do show our goats and always follow the usda guidelines for scrapies and other infectious diseases. we vaccinate what we can vaccinate for. maybe some think we go a little overboard, but there is nothing as good as peace of mind.


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## happybleats

> I've read about the Sheep vaccine for CL and it's use on goats. I've heard that it's not recommended because it caused issues in some of the goats that tested with it and that they have no idea if it's effective.


I heard its very painful for goats as well! There is one for goats now, but personally, I still will not vaccinate against CL..There is not enough study in the effectivenss or the negative effects yet.

Here is my take on it..and it might not be very popular, but I fear too many otherwise healthy goats are distroyed because of CL. I ended up with Five Boer goat with CL...my first goat purchase years ago...I didnt know what it was..I was told they were worm pockets to keep worming them all the while they were spreading it all over. After working with my vet on several to lance and flush the cysts I learned to do it myself..it took a few years to clean up the herd and we worked even longer to clean the property....we bleached and scrubbed every inch of every area of the farm. .. So here is my 2 cents..Every goat deserves a chance..Many of the goats I treated never got a second CL in my ownership....I cant help but wonder if their immune system was stronger than the CL and build antitbodies to prevent further infection....If we goat owners would deal with CL responsably we could cut down considerably on the spreading, understandng how CL works and how to deal ithit properly, and knowing mulitple CL in Goats shows a weak immune system and increase the likelyhood of internal CL..I would not purposly go bring home a goat or lamb with CL, but if one ended up with it...I woudn't cull first thing either...
I would not use Formalin....IMO too risky..Ive had success with lancing and Flushing...Yes more work and more care is needed, but less risky. Ok my 2 cents lol


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## AmyBoogie

I looked up the vaccine, thank you for pointing that out. Blocked in my state too (and most states). Though, if you have an animal that tested pos from CL, I would think getting the vaccine for the rest of the herd would be wise even if you had to beg your vet to get it for you.

SCRMG - thank you for your experience with this. Everything online I've read is "cull as fast as you can". It's interesting to see someone that can manage a herd with CL in it. There are mixed opinions on Formalin, I figured it was mostly because the use of Formalin implied that one was keeping the goat where the general opinion is to get rid of the goat. I did read about the dangers of Formalin too. But I would think that it's better to use it than put the animal down or risk infecting the herd. Do you sell kids born to infected does?

I admit, doing shows scares me a little bit. At home, I can keep my babies safe and away from disease but at a show, I just don't always have that control or know what was there before me. I have looked up procedure to clean a stall and all that but you just never know. I don't think it will stop me from doing a show but knowing that this disease can be managed with diligence does ease my mind. Thank you Cathy and SCRMG.


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## jddolan

I have just experienced. Some cl lumps ,vAcinated the rest of the heard,I'm in ny ,bought from Jeffers,I'm doing a combination. If Lansing and formalin,have had 3 abscesses,I was going to have the puss tested but called out vet and they send out to Cornell university in ny and they only test blood not puss,but everything I read it all screamed cl,good luck


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## jddolan

Tenesee meat goats,onion creek ranch,has some info on web site


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## SCRMG

Amy, most of my kids go through the auction for slaughter but I do occasionally sell breeding quality kids through private sale. When I do this, I am brutally honest. Most buyers I've run in to do not know what CL is, and I really feel it's my responsibility to educate them. I do not hide the fact that I have CL in my herd (it really bothers me that some people do... I know one who will sell a known positive goat to unsuspecting newbie for $800+ and never lose a night's sleep...)

Any way, whether the goat is from a CL positive doe or not, I encourage buyers to test the goats. I also stay in contact with as many buyers as possible. I sell the goats with a contract that states that the goat can be returned for a full refund if an abscess is discovered. So far, I have not had any goats returned, and the buyers have been pleased with their goats. I have quite a few return customers.

I've actually, often wondered if there might not be a benefit to breeding CL positive goats that only have a single abscess in their lives. This is an indication of a healthy immune system, and that is something genetically that I would like to encourage in my stock. Just like breeding for worm resistance.

I attached a picture of one of my favorite girls. Taco, as I call her, has had a rough life. As a kid she was attacked by a dog and lost her tail, and scarred her face. She also has CL. I just snapped this picture of her. She's about 11 years old now, and living out life as a retired girl. In the time I had her, she raised 7 beautiful sets of quads, and 1 set of triplets. Other than an occasional abscess (1 every couple of years), she is a healthy girl. Most of her doelings are being used as breeding stock, none of the ones that I still know of have had CL. She also has many granddaughters and great grandaughters out there breeding. Most of them, like her, carry and raise high multiples without their bodies breaking down from the wear (Taco's udder still shrinks up to nothing when she is dry!). There are some good genetics in this line that would have been lost if I had culled her when I found out she had CL.


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## SCRMG

Sorry... I had technical issues with the pict.


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## Jessica84

AmyBoogie said:


> SCRMG - thank you for your experience with this. Everything online I've read is "cull as fast as you can". It's interesting to see someone that can manage a herd with CL in it. There are mixed opinions on Formalin, I figured it was mostly because the use of Formalin implied that one was keeping the goat where the general opinion is to get rid of the goat. I did read about the dangers of Formalin too. But I would think that it's better to use it than put the animal down or risk infecting the herd. Do you sell kids born to infected does?


I agree about the formalin as well. I have over the years had 4 cl abscess, I have never tested any of my animals so for all i know they all have it. The first abscess was from my first goat who was (she passed this year) my baby girl and my best doe. When she got it I didnt know what it was, it was on the chest so thought is was a bad heart. I lost a lot of sleep when I found out about cl but then started thinking, I was not going to cull her, like scrmg most of my kids do go to auction, so once I got that threw my head that Bill will die here and not be culled I made a pen very far away from my goats, it is know as the cl pen lol. For all the ones with abscesses they are placed in there, its cleaned everything is burned, I let the abscess heal, they are cleaned up and sent back out, and the ground is cleaned bleached and when fire danger is not high brush goes in there and burned. I really dont think cl is a 100% death to them, one of my abscess cases is a dino old doe only has 3 teeth, and her horn keep pealing off, and she is still going strong and happy as can be. I just sold a buck and 7 does to a man starting in goats, I knew he had no idea about this cl stuff so told him I do not test my animals and that they have not had abscess them selfs I have had some in other goats. He hired a vet since he or i didnt know how to draw blood, and they were clean. I respect everyone has a clean herd and work hard to keep that because thats my goal one day as well. Ill cycle out the old unknown, vac. they young and keep going that way. It really does suck on the spreading of this if you think about it, goats always itch on something, one with the abscess itches on say a tree, it opens it up and gets the puss on it, the next clean goat rubs on it gets a scratch on her with the puss getting into it and now theres another one.


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## MsScamp

AmyBoogie said:


> I am wondering how a kid can be born to a doe that has CL and not get it. They can't right? This suggests those that are breeding CL positive animals are just creating more babies that have it and then they all have a much shortened life span.


They can't. CL usually does not shorten the life of a goat, however. Shortened life is generally sheep who tend to develop abcesses internally, as opposed to a goat who usually develop external abcesses. I have also noticed that there is a kind of immunity - for lack of a better word - in a lot of kids where CL is concerned. A good percentage of my kids never develop an abcess. My kids are also sold through the sale barn - never via private treaty unless they are going strictly for meat. Right, wrong, or indifferent, the #1 rule of the sale barn is buyer beware. I would never, ever sell a breeder or pet to an individual without fully disclosing that I have CL in my herd, but I do not disclose that information at the sale barn.


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## Goats Rock

I purchased the CL vaccine from Jeffers- but am waiting until I know more about it before I use it! (I hope I didn't waste my money!) We have a new farm vet and 
I want to speak with her about it and get her opinion. She seems very knowledegable about goats, makes farm calls and doesn't charge an arm and a leg!


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## MsScamp

I am also giving the new goat vaccine some time before I implement it as a means of control in my herd. I have the phone number for Texas Labs, and I will probably call and talk to them the end of the summer - I figure that should give them enough time to have a projected degree of effectiveness and at least some of the kinks worked out.


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## AmyBoogie

Goats Rock said:


> I purchased the CL vaccine from Jeffers- but am waiting until I know more about it before I use it! (I hope I didn't waste my money!) We have a new farm vet and
> I want to speak with her about it and get her opinion. She seems very knowledegable about goats, makes farm calls and doesn't charge an arm and a leg!


We have a good local vet too! I'm excited to have found her and hope in the next week or 2 to talk about the vaccine. If I'm doing shows, I'd like to have that little bit of insurance. The only thing that worries me is that the vaccine is not approved for lactating does. Does that entirely rule out dairy goats or is there a withdrawal time that is not listed? I'm hoping my vet has the answers.


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## AmyBoogie

Thank you guys for all the experience.
I wonder if there is anyone with dairy instead of meat that keeps CL animals or has any management ideas with them. I'm feeling like if one of my girls caught something then she'd just be a pet for the rest of her life and live in a "CL pen" away from all the others when there are abscesses.

_And to think, my family claims I never plan ahead. Not that I plan on building the separate pen unless I need it._


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## happybleats

I raise dairy..I would treat them the same as I did my boer...the only thing that would concern me would be if the CL was in or on the udder... but otherwise, I feel the same way.. The only time that seperation is needed is when the cyst ready to clean...


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## mjs500doo

I also feel as if CL is too hyped up. I try not to purposely purchase a positive animal, but treatment and prevention from further spreading is relatively easy compared to other diseases.


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## AmyBoogie

This has become a pet project for me. And we're testing now for CL. Ya know.... When I started the goat herd, I feared CL so much. We had a clean farm. No animals on it for about 15 years or so. I was so diligent and asked so many questions. I read so much about CL and CAE and Johnes and bought from reputable people with clean records. 

And I started this thread to help with all the information and ask questions. Learn more. It seemed like CL was something I was going to have to deal with at some point because well.... it sounded like it's almost impossible to avoid. I still have healthy respect for it but the irrational fear is gone. I know if we have it, I feel equipped to deal with it thanks to this site and all the others posted with valued information.

Tonight I was reading more and perusing other forums about their information to continue to learn.... I am amazed at the crazy information people are spreading. I don't even want to repeat it here. Some of it is absolutely bonkers and sounds like some of the crazy stuff people were saying about humans and AIDS not so long ago. Spreading such wild misinformation. This is why people get hysterical. Any new goat person could read this stuff and think someone posting with "sage advice" is correct and get immediately hysterical over the crazy and erroneous information.

I guess I'm posting just to remind people to really read, to use their thinkers objectively, to talk to trusted "old goaters", to not get hysterical and keep a level head about it all.... Everyone has an opinion, get them all and form your own. If someone is saying something that seems wacky, it probably is. Finally, have a place picked out for that CL pen or be prepared to put down/cull (I have to say, I'm not happy with the idea of just foisting a CL animal on an auction barn, seems pretty shady unless it's disclosed). I gotta think, unless you have a closed herd and never show, CL is likely going to knock on our door or at least give us all a scare.


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## AmyBoogie

Here's a bunch of links that were posted here and others that I found helpful or interesting.

General info:
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl.shtml
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/caseouslymphadenitis.html
http://goat-link.com/content/view/101/#.UeX3GpxGNOY

Having a vaccine created for your herd:
http://www.clgoatcare.org/

Article breaking down treatments:
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl3.shtml

Articles on Colorado's Serum vaccine for goats (old to new and includes sheep vaccine info):
http://www.colorado-serum.com/vets/vol_2/vol2_10.htm
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/caseouslymphaden.html

A site with a bunch of linking that I have not clicked on all the links so I'm not sure how helpful all of it is:
http://www.viclink.com/home/carol/Sheep Diseases CL OPP Johne's testing closed herds biosecurity.htm
http://www.jefferspet.com/cl-bacterin-vaccine/camid/LIV/cp/0040569/cn/330/


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## Jessica84

Its funny you bring up humans and aids in this, I was thinking the same exact thing after I did my post but didnt want to go into it, and still will not one my whole though on it, but glade to see someone sees it too  
About the sale barn, if you do think its shady, yes go ahead and say the animals is cl+ but the sale barn is a whole different world. Most animals that go threw go to butcher, the ones who buy for breeding stock know that that animal is there for a reason, all they do is hope its for money reasons and not that there is something seriously wrong with the animal. Many of the buyers that do buy for breeding, this is their way of life and how they make money. Im sure you have looked up prices to test your animals, If you had 100 head of goats that is a dang big chunk of money. I have even see a dairy doe, in milk go for over $200 (cant remember the exact price) with a cl abscess on her. Thats about the going rate for a milker at the sale, they didnt see to care one bit.


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## TDG-Farms

I just wanted to clarify the 80% number that you mentioned. That number is based on commercial sized / grade dairies. Just as its also said that 80% of all dairy cows are infected with Johnes. Again, thats from commercial sized dairies. They are simply to big and to infected to do anything about it. Even if they could spend the time and money to start cleaning up their herds, their surfaces are so infected they would effectively have to relocate to a clean place.

We have sold replacement dairy goat stock to many large dairies around the northwest and even early on, into Canada (before the mad cow scare that locked the boarders). ALL of them were not only heavily infected with CL but as you can guess, with CAE. Id even go so far to say its nearly 100% on large commercial dairies. We were offered a herd management job with a 2000+ head dairy in California a couple of years ago. But after explaining the most basic of things that would be needed to at least contain the diseases running rampant, the owner decided that would not be possible and we would instead just manage his newborns as we was looking almost 90% of them. We of course told him no.

What makes CL scary is the same thing that makes Johnes scary. It infects surfaces and those surfaces stay infected for along time. That and there is no cure. Not to mention, anyone with even a hint of human decency would never sell an infected animal to someone unless that person new exactly what the disease was and how to management and actually wasnt concerned about it. So that allow sends the chance to make an kinda profit out the window.

My advice to anyone newly coming into goats or have been in for a few years and just dont know. If you act like CL / CAE / Johnes are dangerous and do everything you can to prevent them from entering your herd, then you will be better off. Having fought for over a decade to clean up the farm I cut my teeth on was a monstrous undertaking that I would try to keep anyone else from having to go through. Its easy to keep these diseases out of your herd. Its often times heartbreaking to clean it up afterwords...


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## AmyBoogie

CL is definitely a disease to be taken seriously. The only way to eradicate it is through correct knowledge and diligence. Its disappointing too see so much hysterical incorrect information out there. Its a disservice to people just starting out with goats. The wild misinformation on some sites just reminded me of other rumors started about other diseases. People are funny, they like to spread their own fears (no matter how irrational or incorrect) which when the info is wrong its not helping anyone and its definitely not helping to educate and stop the spread of CL.

The thought on auction barns and non disclosure is a personal one. Seems a fair lot of people go to them new and unsuspecting. Babes in the woods. Buyer beware for sure. I would need to disclose but that's just me. I don't have plans to use auction so really, I shouldn't have even bothered to mention it. Its just my opinion for what that is worth


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## janeen128

Curios question on this subject.....I recently had all the testing done on my herd, they were all negative Now if I have to sell kids at a sale barn, could the kids become infected there being with other animals for such a short time? If the answer is yes, then I won't be taking the kids there... I can't stand those places anyway... I had some pretty bad experiences as kid, so selling there wouldn't be my favorite option anyway., it was going to be a last resort, but it may not be a resort at all....


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## mjs500doo

janeen128 said:


> Curios question on this subject.....I recently had all the testing done on my herd, they were all negative Now if I have to sell kids at a sale barn, could the kids become infected there being with other animals for such a short time? If the answer is yes, then I won't be taking the kids there... I can't stand those places anyway... I had some pretty bad experiences as kid, so selling there wouldn't be my favorite option anyway., it was going to be a last resort, but it may not be a resort at all....


Kids especially will be most prone to disease. Yes they can pick disease up in sale rings. I wouldn't send mine through at all. Unless direct slaughter.


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## TDG-Farms

Yes they absolutely could. Livestock auctions dont clean their pens ever cept to muck em. So an animal that has gone through with a leaking abscess or even popped it while there, anything it comes in contact with is infected. CL lives at least 2 years on most surfaces. But I read somewhere it can live as long as 10 years which doesnt seem plausible and maybe some of that hyped up info. 

Ill give you an example thou of how quick an animal can be come infected. We sent a shipment of 50 milking does to a dairy in California. And about 2 months later show up cause we were offered a herd management job. There were 2 does outta the 50 that were already CL infected and growing abscess under their ears. These animals were tested 2 weeks before they left as they were going to go to a clean dairy in Oregon but that fell through so they went to our back up buyer instead.

So although there maybe hyped up info out there, I totally agree with most of it. But coming from the farm we worked on and fighting the good fight for so long, we take no chances at all. Ever. We have some great top 10 blood line bucks and get asked frequently about buck services and tell everyone the same thing. No. The few dollars that would be made from a breeding fee just doesnt warrant the risk. A fanatic stance some might say but it keeps us clean and happy


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## janeen128

mjs500doo said:


> Kids especially will be most prone to disease. Yes they can pick disease up in sale rings. I wouldn't send mine through at all. Unless direct slaughter.


Okay, then that settles it, sale barn is no longer a resort Thanks... I guess if I can't sell to private parties then my herd may get a bit bigger


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## janeen128

TDG-Farms said:


> Yes they absolutely could. Livestock auctions dont clean their pens ever cept to muck em. So an animal that has gone through with a leaking abscess or even popped it while there, anything it comes in contact with is infected. CL lives at least 2 years on most surfaces. But I read somewhere it can live as long as 10 years which doesnt seem plausible and maybe some of that hyped up info.
> 
> Ill give you an example thou of how quick an animal can be come infected. We sent a shipment of 50 milking does to a dairy in California. And about 2 months later show up cause we were offered a herd management job. There were 2 does outta the 50 that were already CL infected and growing abscess under their ears. These animals were tested 2 weeks before they left as they were going to go to a clean dairy in Oregon but that fell through so they went to our back up buyer instead.
> 
> So although there maybe hyped up info out there, I totally agree with most of it. But coming from the farm we worked on and fighting the good fight for so long, we take no chances at all. Ever. We have some great top 10 blood line bucks and get asked frequently about buck services and tell everyone the same thing. No. The few dollars that would be made from a breeding fee just doesnt warrant the risk. A fanatic stance some might say but it keeps us clean and happy


Thank you as well... Hmmmm I was planning on offering buck service to clean animals only, and really to those I know since the closest real oberhasli farm is about 2 hours away. So I was planning on just having a driveway breeding so to speak on people who can prove the doe is disease free..... Much more thinking ahead.... I have 8 "kids" yes they are my kids.... I even love my horny kinder buck, and they are all so gentle, they are pets that all have jobs, I really can't say well behaved because they are spoiled brats.... I would hate for any of them to become infected....


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## jddolan

I recently have had some cl abscess ,I bought the vAccine from. Jeffers,I drained The abscess and also used fo


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Even if you drain the abscess, they still have the disease.


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## jddolan

Also used formalin,tenesee meat goats has some great info,I spoke with the owner susanne gasperatto last week,she no longer recommends formalin use,just lance and drain ,I vaccinated and was not going to vaccinate the goats that have had lumps and she said no vaccinate everyone and that the side effects are bad ,fevers lameness,I had one doe that I thought it was hoof issues and I believe it was from


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## jddolan

The injection,after a few weeks the doe is doing great, I don't think cl is a big deal,like I was told by a very experienced person cl can be treated and managed were some other diseases are Incurable


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## jddolan

Yes I realize they still have the disease,I was told goats may have one abscess and never have another,or may continue to have them


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## TDG-Farms

janeen, you can still offer buck services. My stance is extreme and the actual chance of catching something would be slim, but for us, we are just to gun shy to even try. We have offered buck services before. But that was to people in our area who have bought goats only from us who dont own other goats or if they do, they have had them tested and came back clean. That is about as flexible as we get 

As for the vaccine, unless they have improved it from 10 years ago, I dont hold much stock in it. It just never worked that well other then lessening the number of abscess a single goat would grown in its life time. Granted, thats a good thing. But there were always the few chronic cases that seemed to grow em back to back to back. For them it did nothing. We never gave it to does who hadnt shown signs of CL in the past as we were separating positive from negative animals and you cant test an animal that has had the vaccine as they will test positive. And the end game was a clean herd. But you also need to understand why its so important to tenn.meat.goat to push the vaccine. If you went to buy a goat and saw an abscess on it, would you really wanna eat it? No. So from a big meat goat sellers point of view, the fewer times an infected goat grows a an abscess, the more often that goat can be sold.


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## jddolan

Tdg farms,yes I agree about pushing the vaccine,i guess alot of ways to look at it


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## TDG-Farms

Jddolan, the key word there is MAY. They MAY also become chronic and grow one right after another or even grow more then one at a time. They MAY also grow them in their lungs and other areas internally. If in the lungs though, coughing can spread the bacterium to other animals. And they MAY just grow the one. Which would be the best MAY outta em all 

Here is a pretty good read. http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl.shtml


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## BathamptonCashmeres

We have a vaccine in Australia that is readily available to combat CL. It is cheap and effective. Once you have all your kids vaccinated for a few years running, you'll never see it again.


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## jddolan

Tdg farms,I see what you are saying,I guess there are worst things than cl,if I had a goat that had multiple abscess or kept reoccurring then defiantly cull ,I have only experienced a few abscess ,each goat had one and none reoccurred yet!


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## AmyBoogie

janeen128 said:


> Okay, then that settles it, sale barn is no longer a resort Thanks... I guess if I can't sell to private parties then my herd may get a bit bigger


This is the plan that we have now. We don't really want to sell animals for meat and that seems to me all the auction barns will be good for. Pets, pack, dairy and fiber is our goal. If I end up keeping too many goats then I either get a bigger space or I stop breeding


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## AmyBoogie

BathamptonCashmeres said:


> We have a vaccine in Australia that is readily available to combat CL. It is cheap and effective. Once you have all your kids vaccinated for a few years running, you'll never see it again.


In looking for information online it did seem like the only really effective widespread CL vaccine was in Australia. I wonder why it's not being approved in the US....and then I wondered how I could get some smuggled to me in the states.


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## AmyBoogie

Janeen. We don't have a buck now but when we do, I wouldn't have a problem using them for stud with some rules. (of course they may change but I have some in my head now) I would want to see the test papers on the goat that is being bred, mostly for Johnes but while CAE isn't catchy through breeding, it would help to know the doe is healthy. Also if it's a driveway breeding, you can check for lumps and it's very limited exposure. The only way they'll get CL is through direct contact with pus/open wound. If you have a nice buck that you want to share, from my research, checking visually and then doing driveway breedings is the way to go.

Who knows, by the time I get the buck pen built, I may decide I want a closed herd. 

There always needs to be room for change and flexibility so that we can come up with a management style that works with our goats and how we feel about keeping the diseases down. I would love to see some of these eradicated but without everyone having the same mindset about control, it won't happen. So all we can do is make ourselves feel safe.


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## enchantedgoats

i still say buyer beware. if a seller hasnt tested and wont let you test before you buy,then pass on the goat, they have a reason. i have read that at one time 80% of all meat goats tested positive for cl. now it is down to about 30%. still too high. would you want to eat an infected animal? no wonder goat milk and meat has a bad reputation amoung the general public. let's try to eradicate this disease, buy only tested animals to avoid further spread of this disease. test your own herd, do you want your kids and children drinking milk from a cl goat? i know this is a harsh stance but cull your positive goats. i can hear it now "well she only had one positive lump and we treated it" once they have cl they have cl. use your head not your heart. trust me there will be other fantastic goats that are cl free, and if you follow the usda guidelines for show goats you will not have this problem. yes, when the vaccine becomes readily available i.e. usda approved for goats, we will vaccinate, but until then we will test, and relax knowing that we have done our part.


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## AmyBoogie

I would like to see more reliable testing. I'm all for isolating a suspected positive goat and getting the testing done and redone but there are a lot of false positives...and according to our vet, she's seen a fair amount of false negatives. 

If a goat has abscesses from time to time that test negative do you believe it? Do you just assume that you have an accident prone goat that gets into things and gets splinters or bee stings that make abscesses and they're really negative as the test says? Do you trust a blood test of a positive goat that has never had an abscess and cull/butcher it when it's a decent producer?

I think for some people the hard and fast line will work but not for others. I think that keeping your herd safe and keeping positive suspected goats isolated will work just fine for some. I'm not sure. I believe it's a personal thing. This isn't CAE or Johnes. This is CL. Which is a crappy incurable disease that deserves respect and care for sure. Maybe unlike others, I think this one can be manageable. I don't have first hand knowledge yet but I'm sure if I stay in goats long enough, I will.

I've read some information that people believe that goats that are in a herd that one goat has had CL, all have CL but if they don't have any lumps then they've possibly built up antibodies. That a goat that has had CL and beats it has a better immune system and has antibodies. That all goats everywhere probably have CL in their system in some form (like Cocci or worms) but the ones that present are the ones that have an overload. The ones that present constantly have a weaker immune system.... 

There really hasn't been enough clinical testing by those in the know. We as goat owners pass around knowledge but a lot of it ends up being opinion and guessing because no one is doing any real clinical testing. It's frustrating to not have many hard facts. It's also frustrating that we don't have a reliable vaccine yet.

I don't think there are any answers at least for me yet. I don't have a line drawn in the sand. 
I think as goat owners we all need to stay educated and knowledgeable about this. I appreciate everyone in this group being respectful and discussing this issue. I'm learning tons and gaining knowledge.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

The thing with a "closed herd", that means you never being new goats to your farm, you keep breeding the same goats forever, never get any new genetics, and in the long run, end up with severely inbred goats if you kept expanding your herd with the same goats.
My friend had a "closed herd" yet she just bought 2 new bucks.
You have to bring in new genetics, just make sure they are clean.

I think Jeffers has the vaccine from Colorado Serum company.


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## mjs500doo

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> The thing with a "closed herd", that means you never being new goats to your farm, you keep breeding the same goats forever, never get any new genetics, and in the long run, end up with severely inbred goats if you kept expanding your herd with the same goats.
> My friend had a "closed herd" yet she just bought 2 new bucks.
> You have to bring in new genetics, just make sure they are clean.
> 
> I think Jeffers has the vaccine from Colorado Serum company.


Not only inbreeding but not exposing your herd to new "bugs" is just as equally dangerous. I'd much rather have clean strong immune systems than have clean weak immunity. The other thing that irks me is that there is no such thing as 100% negative herds. You may work your tail off at keeping only clean animals around but then if you go crazy to find out why all the sudden one of the animals exhibits clinical symptoms of disease, it's no better. Many of these terrible diseases never show symptoms. This is what's really scary. Your beloved may be a carrier all their life and never have issues but her granddaughter may have a weak immune system and suddenly you're dealing with CAE or Johned for example. Terrible.


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## enchantedgoats

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> The thing with a "closed herd", that means you never being new goats to your farm, you keep breeding the same goats forever, never get any new genetics, and in the long run, end up with severely inbred goats if you kept expanding your herd with the same goats.
> My friend had a "closed herd" yet she just bought 2 new bucks.
> You have to bring in new genetics, just make sure they are clean.
> 
> I think Jeffers has the vaccine from Colorado Serum company.


 jeffers does have the vaccine but it isz not available in 29 states including ours


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## TDG-Farms

Closed herd for us is not buying Does or Bucks from other breeders who dont test. But even then we still only buy from semi local, nationally known blood lines. Our last purchase from an outside herd was an Olentangy Buck nearly 2 years ago.

http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=A001623848

We also do a lot of Artificial Insemination

When you deal with top breeders who are as vigilant as yourself, saying closed herd is still pretty much the truth. But even then, when a new animal arrives, they go into quarantine. Mainly to make sure they are not bringing the little annoyances with em. Like ring worm, soar mouth, worms, lice... So at that time we go ahead and test em anyways.

And as for the immunity thing, we show our animals at goat shows and the fair. We take precautions before and after and have always been ok. Need to remember, these goats are descendants from a large commercial farm that had just about every goat disease under the sun. Sure maybe in a decade or two they will start to become more susceptible to the regular goat ailments by being so closed off from the rest of the goat world, but for now they are strong animals and we will continue to give our support by making sure they are as protected as possible.


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## mjs500doo

We are going through a huge bout of issues with the dairy (cow) herd that I manage. We're buying springing heifers from a closed herd of over 100 years. Some are going down...and fast. Feet issues (warts, interdigital issues), twisted stomachs (even after thorough feed change slowly over 3 months), insane prolonged ketosis requiring daily treatment, incurable clinical mastitis (cultured), these cattle can hardly hold their own if they go down. Come back time is exaggerated-IF they even come back at all! The ladies with no issues are drop dead gorgeous. Show quality, excellent feet and legs, textured mammary, superb milk quantity (top heifer giving 66#/milking average or 132#/day, RHA for the closed herd heifers is sitting at 51#/milking or 102#/day), low SCC, great feed to milk ratio. We're so impressed with the ones that do so well that we are willing to risk a few duds. At $1800 a pop plus papers, if we gain out of these girls it is so worth it. 

Sorry for straying from the path, but I know all too well what happens when you introduce closed herd animals into a general population-even if the general is also closed. This is not the first time I have encountered issues as such either.


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## KermitWC

I am tempted to vaccinate my herd.


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## TDG-Farms

wow closed for 100 years??? I can see why they are having problems but I can also see why they would be so nice. Cow AI is so much easier then goat AI, you could pretty much go forever with a closed cow herd.


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## mjs500doo

TDG-Farms said:


> wow closed for 100 years??? I can see why they are having problems but I can also see why they would be so nice. Cow AI is so much easier then goat AI, you could pretty much go forever with a closed cow herd.


Yes! At one time they were an elite show family here in Wisconsin. Several All-Wisconsin titles. Tremendous milk records.

Cattle AI is much easier totally agree! I'm an AI tech


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## TDG-Farms

ah  Then you know just what to do to get those great blood lines into a number of different pedigrees 

I wish pedigrees look as good in real life as they do on paper... sucks when you combine to great lines and get... eh whatever.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

^^ Haha, in a perfect world they always look as good as the papers! Sometimes you just get a dud.


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## enchantedgoats

i was just thinking about how you would tell the difference between a cl vaccinated goat and a cl positive goat. i think you would have to come up with a ear tag or notch or tatoo. there may already be a system for that in place. i know that va. notches ears on cattle that have been vaccinated for tb.


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## TDG-Farms

You would separate them. Positives should be removed from the negatives. And then for the next several years you would vaccinate and move any thing that showed up with an abscess to the positive pen. And then when enough years had passed and no new abscess show up, you could then start testing new goats as they are born (not at birth mind you) Not sure how hold a kid has to be before you can test em but Id guess at least 6 months but maybe even a year. Also, it does no good to test a vaccinated goat as they will come up positive. So then once the last of the vaccinated goats has died or moved on and you did lets say at least another years worth of testing. Then you would know you were totally clean and would then have the ability to say CL clean when you attempt to sell some animals.


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## TDG-Farms

OR you test, move positives to their own pen or cull them. Make sure the negative pens, shelters and anything else is cleaned as best you can and test every 6 months for a couple of years. If after 2-3 years all your negatives remain as such, then you are pretty assured you are clean. Though, for as long as there is positive animals on the farm, there is always going to be a danger of them getting out and accidentally infecting a clean animal.


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## emilieanne

Ok so let me ask y'all this, 

(I've been following y'all's comments and I've always wondered this, it just finally got its opportunity to be asked) 

When I go to show, I have to get a health certificate. BUT the vet hasn't done anything more other than check the temperature (that was only one of my 8 does I show..). 
There has to be at least one goat at the fair with CL or some other disease. Why don't they check them and why don't the fairs make everyone test? 
It makes no sense to me because I try and try and try to keep my does the best and cleanest they can be, but I take them to a show and say someone has a disease. Then I'm out of luck. 

Yeah I do sometimes go to a fair and they have a vet there checking the health certain and animals but all I see them doing is sittin around jackin their jaws.


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## AmyBoogie

emilieanne said:


> O
> There has to be at least one goat at the fair with CL or some other disease. Why don't they check them and why don't the fairs make everyone test?
> It makes no sense to me because I try and try and try to keep my does the best and cleanest they can be, but I take them to a show and say someone has a disease. Then I'm out of luck.


Tests aren't accurate.
There are a lot of false negatives and positives. Some goat that is well would be excluded while another that actually has CL or CAE is allowed to show.

Now, there is some thought that all goats have markers for CL and CAE. There are the ones that carry it but never get sick. And then there are the ones that come down with the full blown disease.

Yes, taking our goats to shows does put them at risk but we can be diligent and try to make sure that our goats are healthy and we can clean the pens and watch who our animals associate with. There are no absolutes.

There are also people that have talked about having a closed herd that all of a sudden one goat comes down sick. A goat that may have tested negative but for some reason is now positive. Faulty testing? Or did the immune system finally break down and they got sick?

I think educating everyone and understanding how these diseases work will go a long way. Though I wish we'd just get a good reliable widespread vaccine already and everyone could just show a vaccination certificate to show. This seems to me like the best answer since testing is so unreliable.


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## SCRMG

If the testing center is notified that an animal has been vaccinated, they can differentiate between a vaccination positive and a disease positive. I've had vaccinated goats tested, and with prior notification the results come back negative. I've actually wondered about permanently marking vaccinated goats so that years and several owners down the line someone would know to tell the testing center the goat had been vaccinated at some point, but there are two problems with this. The vaccination will probably give a positive for the rest of the goat's life, but requires an annual booster. If they are permanently marked, new owners may assume that means they are permanently immune, and they will not give the boosters. The even bigger problem is that not all producers are honest, and unfortunately will claim to vaccinate to discourage testing of known positive animals. These people would not hesitate to tag an animal without vaccinating.

As far as showing goats, you should assume that some of the goats have CL. I know that vet's do not consider CL when issuing a health cert. The same guy above shows his goats, the vet knows his herd has a lot of CL, but he has no problems getting health papers. The reason for this is in it's dormant stages (no active abscesses) CL is not contagious. Really, the safest thing to do is protect yourself. Sanitize your pens, vaccinate your goats, and look for lumps on other goats.


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## emilieanne

Well the two main shows I go to are totally different. 
Volusia has the following-
Concrete underneath and we changing shavings every day. I know the concrete is sanitized cause I, myself, sanitize it. There are panels that we out up to establish a "pen" but I dot believe they are sanitized. 

Tampa has the following- grass and sand for the floor, we put shavings over too and you try to change shavings every morning. 
They have junk dividers and pen panels which I know for a fact aren't sanitized. 

What can I do to at least to make sure the panels are ok? Can I use baby wipes and wipe it down or? 
I usually know the animals around mine so I should be fine with that. 
However, I want to be the safest I can. 
I recently had a CL scare because of a careless breeder and I do not want to go through that again. Nor do I want anyone else. 

It is a big problem around here and I honestly and truly believe breeders should alert new buyers about the diseases and such.

We have a few breeders around my area that claim they are now CL CAE & johnes free but we caught them with it.


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## AmyBoogie

I think everyone wants to be disease free but I don't know if it's possible long term without being completely closed off from everything and not doing shows. I'm not trying to be an alarmist, just realistic.

I think if you sprayed everything down with bleach water it would be better than baby wipes. Even the ground. Or bring your own mats to set down before you set down shavings. 

I bought some herbal immunity boost and I think I'm going to give that to my goats before a show. I figure a goat that has a better immune system is less likely to catch an illness right?


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## emilieanne

Tht is very true! 

I absolutely love your idea of bringing mats to set down. I will for sure be doing that!! 
I will do the bleach water idea too!! Cool 

I agree with you that most want to be disease free but some don't even care. 
An old man that I help out and in return I keep my goats there, has had problems. Many problems. 
With all the knowledge I got from TGS (thank god for this app) I have been able to help him. 
I have also alerted him about CAE CL & johnees. He doesn't seem to care. 
There are other people out there that are just not very caring. 

I feel like there could be much much more done to let people know about all the diseases, hopefully everyone else will chime in and help out in making people aware.  I know I will!!


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## AmyBoogie

I think some of the problem with diseases is finding the line between ignorance and hysteria. Which of course is sane knowledge. Though it seems many are lacking that and prefer to lean towards one of the other 2. TGS seems to be a rare group of intelligent and caring people that I haven't found on other forums (and in general life). 

Its been discussed in this thread and others regarding other diseases that some of these diseases are manageable. No one wants them in their herd but I don't think it's always a life sentence for the goat. It could be if that's how one chooses to handle it. I know if my goats turn up with something some day it won't be the end of the world. I'll probably not be happy about it but I'm not running a large scale money making farm so I have the flexibility to make choices that others may not have. 

Sounds like you're doing everything you can Emilieanne. That's all we can do right? Make our herd the best and safest it can be and then help others that are willing to listen.


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## emilieanne

Oh I for sure are doing the best I can 

Even though my girls are all spread out over my County, and not at the best places, it's the best for now. 

I have to agree with you ok the death sentence thing. If it's a registered goat and I have the space I will keep them but if not well ...... Totally different thing is going to happen. 
Really it's on the circumstances. 

I also agree with you saying TGS members are awesome and really smart. 
No one else understands the anger that I have because of other's ignorance. 
Such as my mom saying a 2 week old premature baby can eat grain and no more milk...... 


Goats are really simple, they're not exotic ligers.. I don't see why they can't take the precautions to at least try.


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## enchantedgoats

We take our own panels with us to the fairs to keep our goats from contact with other goats. This is the recommendation of the usda for scrapie prevention.


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## emilieanne

What exactly is scrapie? My goats have their tags but..? I have no idea what it is?


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## enchantedgoats

Scrapie is a fatal nervous system disease of sheep and goats. There is no treatment or cure. It is closely related to mad cow disease. The name scrapie is derived from the symptom of the animal scraping themselves bald by scratching. It is transmitted by milk,urine and feces. It can live in soil up to 3 years.


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## nchen7

AmyBoogie said:


> I think some of the problem with diseases is finding the line between ignorance and hysteria. Which of course is sane knowledge.
> 
> Its been discussed in this thread and others regarding other diseases that some of these diseases are manageable. No one wants them in their herd but I don't think it's always a life sentence for the goat. It could be if that's how one chooses to handle it. I know if my goats turn up with something some day it won't be the end of the world. I'll probably not be happy about it but I'm not running a large scale money making farm so I have the flexibility to make choices that others may not have.


(I deleted some lines or else my post will be really long!)

so I've been silently lurking this discussion for a while....and ready to give my :2cents:!

I can't speak for CL/CAE/Johne's as there apparently aren't any outbreaks here or testing done..... what I CAN say is sane knowledge is really key to everything.

I was reading something about cancer a while back, and if I remember correctly, every person produces malformed cells at least 6 times in their lifetime, but our immune systems fight it off quite successfully. if we freaked out about that stat like goat producers and keepers freak out about CAE, then humans wouldn't be alive!

As for dealing with a disease, diabetes used to be a death sentence, and that life would be short and painful. but now, with proper management and medication if needed, people with diabetes can live a long life.

I know those are human examples, and not with livestock. But it think it's each person's decision whether to keep an animal with a disease or not, and it's probably still a case by case basis.....


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## BathamptonCashmeres

People get upset about CL because it is extraordinarily gross. Imagine a tennis-ball sized lump filled with thick yellowish-blue pus, that can burst and spread onto surfaces everywhere and infect other goats.


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## AmyBoogie

I keep looking for more information on why to and why not to vaccinate. I thought I'd keep updating this thread as I found more pertinent information.

Serology testing - blood tests that test for titers:
_Titers ≥ 1:256 are rarely seen in animals without internal abscess. Ti ters 1:8 to 1:128 can be found in both infected and uninfected animals; however, the higher the titer, the more likely an animal is infected._
http://www.cahfs.ucdavis.edu/local-...S_Connection_Small_Ruminant_edition_final.pdf

So if I tested my herd to see if they were neg before I vaccinate - If they had titers 1:8 to 1:128 - they could be neg or positive? I guess that would depend on if I read it with a half full or half empty glass? The article also recommends testing the herd again in 3-4 weeks to see any variance in results. So anyone that is testing their herd needs to really test again in a month to see the outcome is and learn to read the titer results.

I'm going to start a new thread for vaccination because I think it could be a new subject with good discussion.


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## goatgirl16

I have been reading along and I have a few question most all my goats have been tested I have a couple who have not it isn't a huge concern for me as they are my pets and for family milk and hopefully soap making I do plan on testing everyone all my goats have been CLA tested not many people in my area test for anything other then that so where do CL lumps usually appear ? If a doe has CL but no abscesses she is not a threat to herd? If she kids her milk needs to be sterilized for kids or will they have CL? There is so much info I am a little confused lol Also I have a doe that came from a supposedly closed tested herd non of my goats have had a abscess but a couple days after I started milking her I felt a pea size lump in her udder I contact women I purchased her from she said it was probably something ( I forgot what it is called) but nothing to worry about I can not test right now as I am trying to get everyone healthy we are battling with pneumonia and scours and and I have a pretty hefty vet bill a couple weeks in a row but if that is suspicious of CL I will definitely test her as I do not want it to spread also don't want her in any pain or getting really sick what do u think? So that being said I just thought about something else last January I went to feed everyone and my buck was bleeding a little not a lot from his jaw line and his whole side of face was swollen we assumed he got a horn in the face vet came out looked at him gave him antibiotics his fave was not swollen before that but if that had been suspicious of CL vet would have known right? My vet has 60 plus goats so I am a confident he knows CL and all that I have been using him as a vet for 8 yrs at least sorry so long and not right on topic


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## AmyBoogie

Goatgirl - I'm not a vet but here's what I've learned.
If a doe tests pos in a serology test it may not mean she is really ill unless her titers are 1:256 range. Test twice and then in 6 months, test twice again. Separate the positives the first time until you know for sure then keep separate or vaccinate the true positives.

If they never have an abscess they may not have CL but have the antibodies or they may have internal (which is fairly rare in goats). KNOW YOUR ANIMALS. Feel them all over for lumps and keep and eye on any that are suspicious. If the animal is unthrifty then it might be internal. Animals that have internal CL are unwell, losing weight and cannot gain and have a cough. Isolate them immediately and they should probably be put down once you verify that it's not pneumonia and it's CL -if an animal can be saved, save it. I definitely don't advocate a kill now test later way to farming.

DON'T CULL TO AN AUCTION BARN if your animal has internal CL
You aren't doing anyone any favors. No one should have to deal with an animal spewing CL and no one should eat the meat and for the animal's sake, it should be put down before they're really ill and hurting.

General consensus is that the milk is ok unless there is a CL abscess in the udder. Feel around for the lymph nodes, that's where the CL abscesses form. Depending on where your animal fell on the titers result would depend on how safe I felt with drinking the milk. No dairy around here tests for CL and the only recorded cases of humans contracting any issue with CL is direct open pus into direct open wound. There are NO recorded cases of illness of CL from milk.

Chart of Lymph nodes - http://www.luresext.edu/photos/lymphnodes.jpg

Udders get lumps, especially near the teats, those are not likely to be CL - CL forms at the lymph nodes and those aren't near the teats. Where was your lump?

if he was bleeding then it sounds like an accident. Yes, your vet would have known and you probably would have too. Abscess aren't usually super bloody. They ooze abscess juice. Goats get abscesses not infrequently. A splinter a bug bite or sting....so many things can cause a little abscess. Don't think every abscess is CL but do have the pus tested anyway because it's more accurate than the serology test.

ONLY open sores outside an animal are a threat to the herd or internal abscesses where the animal is coughing up sputum with CL in it. If you know your herd well then you will have a better chance of catching issues. If there is an animal with active abscesses that is CL, it can be managed through diligence and vaccination or you can send them to the freezer.

Mange, mites, coccidia, and sore mouth are easier to contract than CL and more prolific. No one wants any of those in their herd, its all about staying on top of it and if something happens at a show or through a nearby herd, you can manage it if you so choose. NOTHING is fool proof.

**edited for spelling**


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## goatgirl16

AmyBoogie said:


> Goatgirl - I'm not a vet but here's what I've learned.
> If a doe tests pos in a serology test it may not mean she is really ill unless her titers are 1:256 range. Test twice and then in 6 months, test twice again. Separate the positives the first time until you know for sure then keep separate or vaccinate the true positives.
> 
> If they never have an abscess they may not have CL but have the antibodies or they may have internal (which is fairly rare in goats). KNOW YOUR ANIMALS. Feel them all over for lumps and keep and eye on any that are suspicious. If the animal is unthrifty then it might be internal. Animals that have internal CL are unwell, losing weight and cannot gain and have a cough. Isolate them immediately and they should probably be put down.
> 
> DON'T CULL TO AN AUCTION BARN if your animal has internal CL
> You aren't doing anyone any favors. No one should have to deal with an animal spewing CL and no one should eat the meat and for the animal's sake, it should be put down before they're really ill and hurting.
> 
> General consensus is that the milk is ok unless there is a CL abscess in the udder. Feel around for the lymph nodes, that's where the CL abscesses form. Depending on where your animal fell on the titers result would depend on how safe I felt with drinking the milk.
> 
> Chart of Lymph nodes - http://www.luresext.edu/photos/lymphnodes.jpg
> 
> Udders get lumps, especially near the teats, those are not likely to be CL - CL forms at the lymph nodes and those aren't near the teats. Where was your lump?
> 
> if he was bleeding then it sounds like an accident. Yes, your vet would have known. Goats get abscesses not infrequently. A splinter a bug bite or sting....so many things can cause a little abscess. Don't think every abscess is CL but have the pus tested because it's more accurate than the serology test.
> 
> ONLY open sores outside an animal are a threat to the herd or internal abscesses where the animal is coughing up sputum with CL in it. If you know your herd well then you will have a better chance of catching issues. If there is an animal with active abscesses that is CL, it can be managed through diligence and vaccination or you can send them to the freezer.
> 
> Mange, mites, coccidia, and sore mouth are a lot easier to contract than CL. No one wants any of those in their herd, its all about staying on top of it and if something happens at a show or through a nearby herd, you can manage it if you so choose. NOTHING is fool proof.


Thank you that was very helpful her lump in right next to teat inside udder I would nvr cull one of my goats do to her having CL she would live out her life with me we would just be very careful with her. I wouldn't want to spread it and I would want to make sure my animals are taken care of


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## AmyBoogie

Goatgirl - I feel the same way. I feel like depending on the titer numbers of a CL goat, I could still breed and milk if the numbers were really low. I feel like a goat with CAE, I wouldn't want to breed and have bottle babies nor would I want to drink the milk without at least heat treating. Of course, my opinion might change if I were to have pos goats.

The teat lump sounds like something else. I've heard that if you use udder balm or peppermint oil in a carrier and massage that after milking it could help disperse it.


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## goatgirl16

Thanks Amy I will try the massage and oil it is very small and doesn't bother her at all 
As for CAE I am tossed up also hopefully I don't ever have to deal with it  thank you for all the info!!


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## Pixie13

AmyBoogie, I am really glad that you started this thread. I have always had a lot of questions about Cl. It is a lot to take in. There are so many different opinions. We are still new to goats, and have so much to learn. My husband and I are going to take our little ober herd to the vet to be tested soon. I am so afraid that some or all might come back with positive results. None of ours have any lumps on them, but that still doesn't mean one of them may not be carrying it. It is all very scary. Working with goats sure isn't easy. Especially for people like me that have so much to learn. Anyway, thanks for starting this thread.


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## AmyBoogie

You're welcome Pixie13. This thread made me realize that CL isn't the end of the world. This thread showed a few people that had it, dealt with it and the methods they used to get rid of it in their herds. Some lived with it and used proper management methods to get rid of it and others culled. 

Here's my educated but not experienced opinion:
With serology testing, if a goat comes back positive, then test again in a couple of weeks and then a couple of months to be sure there wasn't any false positives in there. All the while keeping aware of any coughing or external lumps and isolate if any of that occurs. 

Then, vaccinate the positive ones that you won't be culling. If they're already positive the vaccine will lessen their chance of getting abscesses and making them positive on a blood test is going to happen anyway. You'll still need to keep checking them to make sure they remain healthy but you'll have a better chance of keeping anything at bay. The vaccine doesn't make them negative but they are less likely to fully get ill and pass it on this way. 

Even vaccinated though, you won't be able to claim a CL free herd but that's your chance to pass on your knowledge to any new people that might buy youngsters from you. 

I'm not sure how I feel about showing a CL positive goat that is in perfect health (no cough, no visible abscesses) or about breeding one. The only way a CL pos goat can pass on CL to a youngster is is there is an open internal abscess in the udder or in the uterus (both rare but possible). I suppose those are really up to each herd owner to decide what is best and most ethical. 

So really even if there is a positive, (and it's not a false result), it's not the end of the world and it can be managed, it just takes more diligence.


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## Pixie13

Thanks AmyBoogie, you have really summed everything up very well. This has been beyond helpful to me. I am sure it has been helpful to sums of others as too. Keep on keeping on I am not as afraid of Cl as I was, since I understand better how to address it if it becomes an issue.


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## AmyBoogie

I'm glad it's helped. I'm writing an article to try to sum it all up too and I'll post it so that it can be of use to everyone. There are so many opinions/facts out there and I figure if I've done all this research, I had to share it.


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## janeen128

AmyBoogie said:


> I'm glad it's helped. I'm writing an article to try to sum it all up too and I'll post it so that it can be of use to everyone. There are so many opinions/facts out there and I figure if I've done all this research, I had to share it.


I definitely learned a lot from this thread too...  Although once I settle with some new does, I will be a closed herd.... I will still test because I will sell some kids, and offer stud service... Since I have 2 bucks now... I have learned a lot... Thanks Amy I look forward to reading your article...


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## flannelberry

AmyBoogie said:


> If a goat has abscesses from time to time that test negative do you believe it? Do you just assume that you have an accident prone goat that gets into things and gets splinters or bee stings that make abscesses and they're really negative as the test says? Do you trust a blood test of a positive goat that has never had an abscess and cull/butcher it when it's a decent producer?


I think this is such a great point. My poor friend who had one goat put down for suspected CL has had another one turn up with an abscess in the same location. 
(roughly where B is)

She's had the vet do a blood draw (I believe) and he says negative but she's not totally settled on that (understandably). My suggestion was to get the paperwork and call WSU directly to see what else it could be or what else she could be doing. It's a tough one because you don't want to get all freaked out just as you don't want to not take it seriously enough.


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## AmyBoogie

If this was mine....it's hard to say because it would depend on my take at the time of events. But I would probably test the pus (like she did) and start to do the serology sequence of testing to find out where the herd was out.

I've heard there are 2 different tests for pus. Another thing I need to call WSU about but your friend could as well and see if they can get the "other" test done on the pus.


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## TDG-Farms

After re reading this threat I trolled the internet and found a very good read. So I posted it as a new topic but thought Id post a link here as this is a good discussion thread.

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/very-good-read-cl-caseous-lymphadenitis-151909/


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## AmyBoogie

Thanks TDG, that is a good one. Did you read this one:
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/FAQ/cl.aspx

None seem to be as complete as I want them to be, but all together there are 4-5 articles that really nail it down covering all aspects in detail. I think the inhaling of spores is one that is mostly glazed over and I'm not sure why. maybe because of hysteria. Not all lumps are CL and not all coughs are either. If you have a goat with a cough, it could be pneumonia, they can survive that.

Eventually I'll get all the articles put together in one nice neat package.
Then I can move on to researching another disease in depth.


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## flannelberry

AmyBoogie said:


> I've heard there are 2 different tests for pus. Another thing I need to call WSU about but your friend could as well and see if they can get the "other" test done on the pus.


That's exactly my feeling. I really like our vet but he's not a great goat/sheep guy - cattle yes, but not so much goats and sheep. I wasn't at the appointments so I don't want to make any judgements re: him but I think a call to WSU is in order. Especially as the breeder is insisting that there's no CL anywhere in her huge flock (which seems statistically improbable but maybe it's true).

Sequence of events is that her first goats arrived, all healthy, no problems. About four months later, a buck arrived, healthy. About three months after he landed, her wether (companion now to the buck) had the abscess. He was euthanized. No confirmed diagnosis but suspicion of CL. He was kind of a sickly guy- anything you could get, he got. I think he was adorable but likely this was a better/best option.

A couple of months later she has a buck with an abscess in the exact same spot. Cheesy pus extracted. The vet said he sent the goo to Vancouver and, she thinks, California. He told her there's no sign of bacteria or anything at all. Of course that's impossible or there wouldn't be pus - even a splinter resulting in encapsulation and pus is going to show bacteria/elevated white cells. She's also not sure what tests he ordered. I think the only way to have peace of mind is to get the paperwork and call WSU. She has babies coming any day now and wants to be able to sell with a clear conscience. I really applaud her efforts and hope that she has some resolution.

My worry is that someone has dropped the ball and I guess that's made me really reconsider expanding my flock/selling/etc. On the one hand, you can manage CL but it's such a life sentence for the flock. I suspect, as I think was said in this thread previously, people are a bit casual about it but can say all of the right things and then you end up in situations like the one I'm seeing.

I doubt her breeder has been deliberately dishonest but at the same time, where would it have come from? My suspicion is that it was in the home herd but she's very protective of the breeder (which is a good thing). I just think when you have a lot of animals, it's not hard to miss an abscess. And it doesn't take much for it to spread. Her buck also didn't come from her original breeder's flock - he had a different home flock before that. It's possible he was exposed there and then brought it with him. All it takes is one rupture and one wee bit of pus and he's got the ability to expose others.

She had a doeling here when the buck arrived (that was the mitey girl) and her herd queen was only in with him for a few days to be bred. Neither of them have had any sign - just him and the one companion wether. Thank goodness - or I'd be a lot more worried.

Her land has never had goats or sheep on it so it's not from the soil.

Anyway, this is a great and educational thread. My breeder told me she culls any that have the abscess (in one of the CL spots). She knows her life is too busy to manage CL and she just feels it's a chance she can't take. I thought that was a harsh perspective at first (although an appreciated one, as a buyer). She'll do bloodwork on the proximal ones (e.g. if a mum were to show it, she'd test the babies by her side etc.) I can better understand where she's coming from after watching what my friend is going through. She's not sure whether she can ethically sell the babies - are they about to be exposed? She can say she's done all of the testing that the vet has suggested but is it enough? I also know I'd hesitate to buy from a CL positive flock. I know that's maybe not a popular opinion but it's true.

Thanks again for starting this thread. It's very timely for me. Between GS and my friend, I feel like I'm learning everything there is to know about CL but glad I'm not learning it the hard way.


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## AmyBoogie

Samples should be sent to Cornell or WSU. I'm not sure anyone else knows how to handle it. In the most common testing with pus there is a lot of false negatives and positives. I wouldn't call it mishandling but there is clearly better testing facilities over some. 

I don't think one goat with CL is a life sentence for a flock. If you catch it, contain it and clean it there is a chance for the rest of the flock. There is also doing serology for the rest of the flock and then vaccinating if there is any chance that pus may have contaminating the farm.

CL has an incubation time up to 2 years. So an animal could have picked up and their immune system successfully fought it off and then stress or something could have lowered their immune system and boom! The CL took hold. But the outward abscesses are good in a healthy animal. It means the animal is filtering it from their system to get it out. A sickly animal (like the first one) could have had it internal too since it wasn't doing well. Animals can carry CL and never show a symptom (like CAE). They are not contagious except when they have open pus externally or sickly coughing up CL. 

IMO - selling from a CL flock isn't unethical if you are making the buyer beware. She can also make buyers sign a contract that they acknowledge what CL is and that the animal they are purchasing has it and they can have their money back if the animal comes down sick in it's first year. Or something like that. There is something earlier in this thread where someone did something like that. Depending on the breed will depend on how easy it is to sell this way or not. It's a chance to educate more people too. I'm willing to bet half of goat owners have no clue what CL is and more than half of those that know aren't educated enough on the real CL scoop (just hysteria).

There is no reason to believe the breeder is dishonest. If all their testing has come back negative, they honestly think their herd is negative. And they have a right to believe so if all testing is negative. CL is relatively easy to transmit. Insects, going to a show, transfer from a livestock carrier? who knows. 

If people stopped taking sick animals to auction barns, if people buying were more aware, if the vaccine was more widely used, if if if....this disease is stoppable. We just have to get everyone else on board.


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## flannelberry

@Amy - I was trying to figure out how to reply without quoting your whole post and just saying "ITA" after each statement!

There are really two labs that everyone uses because they have the gold standard tests. If I had any question - that's where I'd be getting my testing done. 

Her flock is only four goats at present and in very tight quarters with no real quarantine - that's why I took the doeling when the buck arrived. It makes it an even more heartbreaking situation. I do agree entirely that you can manage it. Especially if I just wanted adorable brush/grass mowers, I wouldn't care if my animals had been exposed/ previously symptomatic and I'd just manage the abscess as needed. I also agree that as long as you tell people, you're in the clear. It's up to them to buy or not. I like your idea of putting it right in a purchase contract - then someone can't come back to you and claim they've been cheated.

I have to tell you, I'm very anti-show and this is partly why. A friend of mine lost her whole sheep herd because of infection at a show - it's so easy to get stuff. I think some of the bigger shows - like OFFF do a good job of separating animals but the smaller, well intentioned ones just don't have the means/space to do it. I would never let my animals go in our local fair because of the proximity and risk. Not saying people shouldn't but just that it's easy to see how you can end up with infection even being really careful when you're showing. The breeder she got her animals from does show so it's very easy to see that she could have exposed animals no matter how careful she is.

It's a tough one really and again, I'm glad there are threads like this one where we can discuss it!


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## flannelberry

AmyBoogie said:


> If people stopped taking sick animals to auction barns, if people buying were more aware, if the vaccine was more widely used, if if if....this disease is stoppable. We just have to get everyone else on board.


I think Cornell says the insect transmission is a legend - it doesn't really transmit that way.

I do need to know more about the vax. I understood it wasn't yet available for goats in most states? I don't even know if I can get it here at all (Canada) without bringing it across.

Do you have a reliable link re: info? I was thinking about calling WSU for that. We actually have used them for dog things (live right on the border) and love them.


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## AmyBoogie

And I'm glad everyone here is reasonable. I read a CL thread in one of the homesteader forums and there was a whole lot of unfounded rumor and speculation. TGS is amazing. So many level headed people willing to really learn and teach.

I talked to 2 vets about this. One is a cull now and ask later kind of person who says if anyone tests positive, you need to get rid of the herd immediately through euthanizing and then bleach/burn the land/buildings and not have ANY animals at all on it for 2 years then maybe you can consider it. 

The other recommends practices that were mentioned here, the vaccine and quarantine or culling anyone that is really sick. If they have one abscess then vaccinated and never have another, you've won. If they are sickly more often, they should be culled.

People that have dairies and meat herds deal with this. It's not just grazers. We all need to decide what we're personally capable of handling of course. And I'm willing to bet those that are getting tests done at less reputable facilities are dealing with it in a "negative" herd more than anyone might know.

Shows are scary. I feel like my vets fall mostly into anti-show. They see more animals after a show....sick from one thing or another. My girls really want to do shows so this is why we're thinking of vaccinating the stock we plan to keep. If the goat world was more on board, I'd have no reservations of vaccinating stock that might be sold. But I don't want someone culled for appearing pos when they've just been vaccinated.

This vaccination thing might become my campaign. I'd like some way to mark goats that have been vaccinated so they won't be culled for a pos.


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## AmyBoogie

I know that the insect is believed to be a legend but it's plausible and there are people that swear it's happened to them. I am skeptical but there is much about CL that we have to believe though it's not been proven. Many reputable sources will say that the bacteria lives in the open for only 5 months. But general belief is 2 years. Better to be safe than sorry?

Talk to your vet about the vax. Australia has a good process going with it but it's fairly new here. No, it's not readily available in most states through mail order but you can get it from your vet. I have ordered it. I haven't used it yet. I'm a little hesitant but I want to feel safe to use it so my animals are safer.

I have articles by WSU written on the subject but nothing about what we've talked about like the extra testing and what's the difference in the different ones is mentioned. They only mention the serology test and a pus test. Not that there is more than one. A call needs to be made. That's on my list for this afternoon. I have that and a few other questions for them.


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## AmyBoogie

I just got off the phone with WSU. 

Testing: there are only 2 tests!
The serology test, which they test for one day of the week is the one that has the most variant in the results (and I'll explain that in a moment). It usually takes only 24 hours for the results but because they test only one day each week, it can seem like it's longer.
The abscess pus culture test is also only a 24 hour test. Sometimes it takes them up to 72 hours to complete the diagnostics and figure out all of what's going on in the culture.
For culture tests in general there is aerobic and anaerobic (air and no air growing bacteria) but there is ONLY one test that is a 24 hour test with the CL pus.

It is unlikely that a goat could be Pos in Serology and Negative in Pus test. The opposite though is very plausible; Neg in Serology but Pos in Pus test. If that is the case it means the goat is pos, it just hasn't had the time to build up antibodies (which is the titers) in the body/blood stream.

My next question was about reading the titers. 1:8 through 1:128 can be read as negative or positive according to an article that I read. WSU reads 1:8 as low infection that might be incidental and would request folks with a low result to retest. those with results up to 1:128 are high results but would still recommend a retest. Those with results of 1:256 or higher are considered to have internal abscesses. 

My final question was about the vaccine.
There is NO way to tell if a goat has had the vaccine or has CL. There is nothing on the horizon that would differentiate either. The Dr at WSU feels like if we were to make sure the vaccination was well documented that that should be used. I guess my next discussion is with ADGA to see if there is some way vaccination can be listed into a pedigree.

An animal (from what they now know) cannot be cured of CL. This is a life long disease but with a vaccine it will lessen their chance of growing more abscesses.


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## TDG-Farms

Thanks Amy, I had read that one before. Though its not the article I was looking for that went into great detail about lung abscess, it did indeed mention the possible transmission through snot and coughing.

"When abscesses are present in the lungs, the organism may be transmitted through respiratory secretions (nasal discharge or coughing). In rare cases"

I would also like to point out a couple of things. As its possible for a goat with lung abscess to pass CL onto clean animals, the focusing on just the animals that have external ones can be a ineffective approach to combating CL in ones herd. Granted, the transmission of CL this way is IMO much less likely but still a risk. At the old farm, we had to make to totally separate milking areas. One for the positive and one for the negative. At the time we didnt know it could be passed through snot and milk, we just knew we wanted them to be as separated as possible.

As for the bug transmission theory, I find it very plausible. If you can infect a clean animal by using the same needle, then it should be just as possible for say a blood sucking bug to draw from a positive animal and then happen to land and draw onto a clean animal next. The only thing that may combat this is if the bug has something in its saliva that would kill the CL bacteria.


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## AmyBoogie

While the serology test for goats with external abscesses doesn't seem very accurate, a serology test for internal is the only way to know. That would be very high titers - anything equal to or greater than 1:256.

Transmission is pus to blood stream/muccus. So the needle from one animal into another but not hitting an abscess should in theory be safe but I wouldn't risk it. You don't know if the animal has internal ones you might hit. Bugs do seem plausible, there are not any recorded (documented) cases that I've found. Every one in the know that I've talked to says it sounds plausible with the right circumstances but no one knows with any certainty.


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## AmyBoogie

oh and for the milk. I did talk to Dr Everman about that. He said that it can pass CL to young in the instance that there is an open abscess in the udder. If there is no open abscess in the udder then it won't pass on CL. Since it's internal, it would be hard to tell so why risk it. 

I forgot to ask about human transmission through milk so I did send off an email but I might I'll call again after I get some work done.


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## TDG-Farms

In the artical I posted it said the bacteria passes through the blood stream throughout the body. If that is the case then using the same needle (or bug) would not need to hit an abscess as the infection is in the animals entire body. Thus the reason not to use the same needle on different animals. Now I have no idea what the infection rate through this method is cause on the farm we were battling both CL and CAE and never used the same needle twice. We even went so far as to bleach/clean the dosing syringes (between uses) we used for the clean goats. The positive goaties had their own single dosing syringe. Its not an easy fight but the more precautions you use when working with both positive and negative goaties, the better. Even with all the prevention steps in place that we used on that commercial farm, we would also have unsuspected positives pop up outta the clean pen and didnt know how they had become infected. I remember the last test results we got back before we left that farm to start our own. Out of 191 goats tested, 5 came back positive.


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## AmyBoogie

I was just going by information given to me by WSU. 
Of course, antibodies are in the blood stream which is how they can do the titer count. I would never suggest that anyone take unnecessary risks. If you're really careful with your bio-security then of course even with clean animals, you'd use different needles and bleach the heck out of everything. 

Positives in the negative herd could speak to the incubation time being up to 2 years or it could be some random break in the clean chain (someone transferring something on clothing or shoes) or it could be insects. It also makes showing seem that much more risky. I would hope that people that have "closed herds" that show, still test regularly because shows aren't safe. And they won't be until everyone takes the time to gain knowledge and/or care about spreading disease.


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## TDG-Farms

I wasnt saying anything against you Amy, was just trying to fill in the gaps that these articles leave open to interpretation. I just have a hard line when it comes to CL and CAE from fighting the fight so long and hard at that other farm. I often times come across much more in your face then I intend


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## AmyBoogie

I didn't think so but I wanted to make sure I wasn't coming across as being too soft. I mean, I am a softie but I do take a stance with my animal's health. 

I, like you, don't believe in taking an unnecessary risks with my animals but you have been at it a lot longer too and dealt with it. There is a lot of conflicting information about CL out there. It's a little crazy.

My goats wormer syringes even have their names on them so as not to contaminate one another and I smell like bleach constantly 

I'm amazed at how many people are so lax about CAE. It kind of speaks volumes when someone refuses to test even when I'm paying for it.


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## 20kidsonhill

Throwing in my comment:
Our vet recommends lancing the abscess and cleaning it and isolating for a couple days while abscess drains and heals and then releasing animal back into the herd. As long as animal does not keep getting abscesses or gets sick not to worry about culling. Consider all abscesses CL positive. Does NOT recommend vaccinating, he feels it is a waste of money and time. He also feels that there are very few farms with any amount of goats for any amount of time that does not have CL positive animals. 
What we do: We vaccinate. And check our herd daily. We consider even a tiny abscess, dime sized, even if not by a lymph node site still potential for CL and we lance when hair starts to fall off and isolate. We have purchased from CL positive farms and farms that vaccinate. And we have vaccinated with the sheep vaccine for two years and this year we switched our entire herd over to the Goat vaccine.


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## TDG-Farms

Unless you are releasing the animal back into a positive herd, the infected animal should never go back in with negative animals or there is no reason for any preventative measures at all.

The one thing I do suggest to anyone lancing an abscess is only cut a single slice, not the X as suggested in the article. If you make a cut, top to bottom, after you clean the cavity you can then pack it with a iodine soaked paper towel. This not only helps it dry out faster but keep a continuous supply of iodine in the wound to help keep it clean.


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## mjs500doo

Only $0.02 I have to put in here is ALWAYS use preventative measures. I don't care if you've been clean 800 years or more. Always. There's always a chance someone could bring Johne's in from the feed, or walk on your pasture with infected boots. Could bring puss from their goat in on their clothes, etc. Supply extra boots, practice safe bio security, and always I mean always treat every animal as if they are infected. Even when proven negative. There's always a chance, like Johne's in particular will spark up later in life.


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## AmyBoogie

This is a good point mjs500doo and one that should be taken to heart. 

If only vaccinations available for all the big diseases and people actually used them to keep their animals clean and healthy. It would be nice to eradicate some of these.


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## flannelberry

AmyBoogie said:


> I just got off the phone with WSU.
> .


This is such a wealth of information. Thanks so much for sharing it.


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## AmyBoogie

You're welcome. They didn't respond to my email, I bet they're busy so I'll be putting in another phone call when I get a break in my work load and I'll post here. Mostly just things I'm still curious about


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## AmyBoogie

Happybleats posted about Draxxin in the CAE discussion thread with an alternative CL treatment - read
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=3043&S=6

Interesting. Good to see that people are working on treatments. If you're not culling and don't want to use Formalin, this seems like a pretty good thing. As will all things, it's your herd so read and do what's right for you.


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## happybleats

> Happybleats posted about Draxxin in the CAE


oops thought I posted it here  sorry ...


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## AmyBoogie

Its all ok. The CAE thread turned into a lot about CL so....

I just sent that link off to my vet to see what they think. My vet works with a couple of herds that have CL and trying different ways of management.


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## happybleats

I remembered some one asking if giving antibiotcs would help. I really didnt think they would but maybe some real life testing is needed...too bad Draxxin cost so much!


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## AmyBoogie

Draxxin is crazy pricey! But if you're trying to keep a herd healthy and manage CL, maybe its worth it.


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## sugartown

Sorry for dragging this up to the front but I keep trying to read it and only get part way through and then have to leave and cant find the darn thing when I want to finish reading it- since a few of us could really use some of this info :sun:


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## ksalvagno

Never bad to bring these up to the front. Lots of good info.


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## toth boer goats

sugartown said:


> Sorry for dragging this up to the front but I keep trying to read it and only get part way through and then have to leave and cant find the darn thing when I want to finish reading it- since a few of us could really use some of this info :sun:


You can save it, if you have IE, go to the top area and add to favorites, then you can go back to it later.
Or if you have firefox, go to bookmarks and save the page there.


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## EandEBoersWV

This thread is amazing! I'm glad some goat people are so open minded. I was on another goat forum and one of the moderators told a newbie who had a goat with CL to euthanize immediately and test his herd and cull anyone who tested positive. I was horrified. He had just got his goats and they were only a hobby as his pets and then She runs off at the mouth scaring him half to death. Another reason. Why TGS is my favorite.


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## sugartown

This thread is amazing- I am sorry I didn't see it on Christmas eve- probably would have had a better Christmas- non the less- I still may cull my guy will probably make that decision some time this weekend- but I wont cull the herd which is what I was first told by someone ( not on this forum) it is wonderful to hear how people have dealt with it what has worked and what has not and why.


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## wildegoats0426

jddolan said:


> Also used formalin,tenesee meat goats has some great info,I spoke with the owner susanne gasperatto last week,she no longer recommends formalin use,just lance and drain ,I vaccinated and was not going to vaccinate the goats that have had lumps and she said no vaccinate everyone and that the side effects are bad ,fevers lameness,I had one doe that I thought it was hoof issues and I believe it was from


I know this is old but what vaccine did you get? There's two on Jeffers

Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## wendylou

I would like to chime in here because I am recently dealing with CL in a few of my dairy goats. My saying is " if it's a bad situation, it's going to happen to me." Ha! I have had a lot going on with both caprine, bovine, and equine here. After losing our mama cow to an overdose of rompun given by the farrier, I thought my bad luck was over when I was able to cure a metabolic horse of hind gut ulcers. Nope! One of my Nubians , Sally, has a huge soft ball on the side of her face that I do suspect is CL since I noticed some of these "cysts" in a few others. 
I put her in a separate area and have been looking up answers to CL with really no concrete solutions. So, here's what I have been playing with in my head...
If a simple amino acid can be given to humans to hault outbreaks of herpes, why can't something similar be given to goats? I know the comparison is way off, but, since CL seems to have no cure, comes and goes, and can be contagious like herpes, there has to be something out there to keep the outbreaks from happening. 
Since CL can be triggered by stress, as herpes in humans can, I believe diet would play an important factor as well as supplements.... But what???
There has to be more answers out there. I'm staying positive that something will surface soon. I have been supplementing Sally with home made herbal balls in hopes that something may help... I have also been rubbing castor oil on the area daily, 2 to 3 times daily. I don't know if this will help or not, but the other options out there are scary to me. 
Just my thoughts here. Hope I made some kind of sense. 






Wendy Lou


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## happybleats

OH Im so sorry Wendy...you just need some kind of break here!!...while you def. need to boost immune system you will need to take care of the cyst at hand..its better to do a controlled lancing and flushing then allowing it to burst on its own...I can send you how we did it here if you need support info. But here is my thought on CL
when we bought several ladies..our first goats..they were busting cl everywhere..we were told it was worm pockets..keep worming them!! Long story short we learned different...after watching my vet lance and clean several...we began doing it ourselves...what I found is some would have second and third break outs and some never ( for the life we owned them) had another..I believe their own immune system faught a good fight and won...so if you can boost the immune sytem...( the gut) then they can at least help you help them...Good bacteria is necessary...we now feed our girls Water kiefer. we offer to the boys and they turn their nose up to it lol..Im hopeing they will grow to love it as well. Like us humans..our health starts in our gut..so fix the gut and work from there : )


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## happybleats

Also scroll back up on the article on useing Draxxin for CL....


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## wendylou

I read that and boy do I want to try this!!! That stuff is pricey BUT well worth it I'm sure! 
I'm planning on getting this to keep on hand for the next one that may occur. Thank you for that information! It sounds like it helps!! 


Wendy Lou


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## wendylou

Water keifer sounds interesting as well. I'm going to try this as well. Thanks for the great info! 


Wendy Lou


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## COgoatLover25

I've never dealt with CL before, so total newbie here  . But, I was wondering if anyone has tried using the oil of oregano or colloidal silver on it?


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## wildegoats0426

I don't think it can be cured. It will always be in their system, it's just wether it's active or not. Sorta like mono if you've ever had it (I've actively tested positive 4 times) but I have heard injecting the cysts with draxxin will kill off that one cyst. I would still quarantine to be safe. I have a doe whose had 2 and it takes a little over 3 weeks for the hair to start growing back, then she goes back into the herd


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## wendylou

No, there's no cure but better control of it would definitely be an option. Controlling the outbreaks is key. I pray one day there will be a cure 


Wendy Lou


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## happybleats

what is needed is more informed and responsible goat owners....


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## BathamptonCashmeres

You will eradicate it in one generation by vaccination. 

Until you bring a new cohort of progeny that have been properly vaccinated through, you'll have to deal with this horrible thing on a case by case basis. There is good advice in this thread about cleaning out external cysts - that's a necessary thing to do because the goop in a cyst is highly infectious if spread into any cut or bump on a non-vaccinated goat. 

However, you can't access internal cysts & antibiotics don't work on this pathogen. The massive cysts may be in the lungs or other internal organs too. The lung ones are a particular problem because they can mean that a goat is continually coughing up infectious material that can then infect any non-vaccinated goats. 

Also take particular care in handling infected goats this is a bug that can affect humans too. The symptoms in humans are not as severe as in goats, but the lymph nodes can swell and the human can suffer a run-down tired feeling. If a person has these symptoms they should seek medical advice.


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## harleybarley

*Test, watch, test again*



AmyBoogie said:


> If a goat has abscesses from time to time that test negative do you believe it? Do you just assume that you have an accident prone goat that gets into things and gets splinters or bee stings that make abscesses and they're really negative as the test says?


Been there. Our herd tested negative, but only once before our favorite girl had an abscess. She went into an isolation pen and stayed there from the time it lost a hair to the time the culture results came back. Even though everything pointed to "this isn't CL" and she'd tested negative. A little mistake or bad luck with CL and you've got contaminated premises that can infect future goats (or sheep). And I'd never want to worry about whether my family would get it while cleaning the barn or planting a field.


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## wendylou

happybleats said:


> what is needed is more informed and responsible goat owners....


Agreed!

Wendy Lou


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## Debra P

ksalvagno said:


> Actually there is a CL vaccine. It isn't labelled for goats but goat breeders do use it.
> 
> Humans can get CL. You need to take precautions if you are lancing an abscess.
> 
> There are also a lot of breeders out there who don't care that their herd has CL, you won't find too many of them on places like TGS.
> 
> CL gets into the soil, on the wood of the barn, etc and stays there for many years, for the possibility of infecting other goats for years.





AmyBoogie said:


> Why are so many completely hysterical when it comes to Caseous Lymphadeniti? Is it that it's incurable?
> 
> I've been reading articles around the web and trying to learn.
> 
> There are so many people asking about abscess on their goats and they're all getting the answer, "Its probably CL, you should cull" when there are clear indicators that some are not. Sure, advocate getting the goat tested when there is an abscess but some of it seems a little over board. Or am I not worried enough?
> 
> I've also read that something like 80% of goats are infected.  That means most of us are likely to have an infected goat now or we will.
> 
> Lance and test or treat the abscess with Formalin seem to be the only treatments.
> No vaccine but you can get one made from the CL that is native in your heard for the low low price of $850 and even then, it still may not be effective.
> 
> No one wants this to be in their herd but it seems like it's relatively unavoidable at some point if you are ever in contact with goats at a show or bring new animals into your herd, so having a plan of attack is a good idea, right? What is that plan of attack?
> 
> Pasteurize any milk from a goat that might have CL or that definitively does....but why would you want to keep milking a CL positive goat?
> 
> Does CL pass from mother to child in the womb? Nothing was mentioned about breeding a CL positive goat probably because course of action is culling but it seems only normal that a goat may be found to have CL after she was pregnant.
> 
> Its an interesting subject and I don't claim to have any answers. I know many of you experienced people have opinions and probably a plan of attack if something happens in your herd. I'd love to hear opinions or discussion on this. It doesn't look like a vaccine is going to happen any time soon so it's something we are stuck dealing with.


I just wanted to let you know I rescue unwanted goats and of course I don't get vet records! Whatever you do DO NOT USE FORMALDEHYDE! It can easily kill your goat! I have a few goats that get cyst. I refuse to ever think of culling a healthy otherwise goat! Also I found an article about using Drexxin and injecting it into the cyst. It was only a study they did BUT I had to try it because usually I lance the cyst after the fur parts and you can feel a soft spot un the middle. I put my goats in a milk stand and my friend helps by holding the goat still as I lance it. Don't wait too long or it could start leaking puss. I use oragel to numb it a bit and make a cross in the cyst and the puss is thick like toothpaste! Warning use gloves and maybe old shoes that you won't go into the barn or near the others or you can spread it. As far as Drexxin goes I was AMAZED because my beautiful Phoenix only has had 2 in a few years but always on the neck and HUGE! the last one was about the size of a very large orange. I had to bring her to my vet or try drexxin! I injected it probably once a week and BELIEVE IT OR NOT I FELT THE CYST TO SEE IF IT HAD GONE DOWN...NOPE IT COMPLETELY DISAPPEARED! NOTHING was there anymore! This was just a study but I needed to try finding a way that wont contaminate my others! When I drain it and flush with iodine over and over I have to separate them plus they do ANYTHING to go back with the herd or as goats "herds" are actually called a trip of goatsremember NOT ALL CYST NO MATTER HOW LARGE IS CL! Years ago my Saanen Stella had a huge cyst on her face. Vet detained it and it never came back. Vet said something probably got stuck and irritated it. She never got another so WARNING PLEASE DO NOT THINK CL AND JUST CULL YOUR GOAT.


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## Debra P

ksalvagno said:


> Actually there is a CL vaccine. It isn't labelled for goats but goat breeders do use it.
> I bought the CL vaccine over $200 for it! Called my vet, I purchased it because I had one goat with cl! My vet read everything on the paper work and said shed do it bit told me I had to be ready to lose a goat or have one get sick. So turns out I decided to waste the money and did not give it to my goats
> 
> Humans can get CL. You need to take precautions if you are lancing an abscess.
> 
> There are also a lot of breeders out there who don't care that their herd has CL, you won't find too many of them on places like TGS.
> 
> CL gets into the soil, on the wood of the barn, etc and stays there for many years, for the possibility of infecting other goats for years.





AmyBoogie said:


> We have a good local vet too! I'm excited to have found her and hope in the next week or 2 to talk about the vaccine. If I'm doing shows, I'd like to have that little bit of insurance. The only thing that worries me is that the vaccine is not approved for lactating does. Does that entirely rule out dairy goats or is there a withdrawal time that is not listed? I'm hoping my vet has the answers.


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## Debra P

Did you ever get your goats vaccinated with the CL medication? I'm asking because we spent over 200 dollars for the injections but decided not for use it because one of our goats does have CL so my vet read all the pamphlet that came with it but warned me before GOING on to inject it that I could lose a goat or some goats..I wasn't willing to lose even one so I wasted the money. Plus, theres some states that this CL vaccination isnt allowed to be sent too. I don't understand why but you know rules


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## Goats Rock

It all depends on what you use goats for. I ship milk, I would not want to drink milk from an animal that had an abscess, nor would I want to sell that animal at a sale. I would never be sure, if I sold it outright, with full disclosure, that those people wouldn't sell it down the road. So, if CL ever rears its ugly head here, the goat would humanely be put down. 

For other people, that may not be what they would want to do. It all depends on ones circumstances at the time.


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## Debra P

Goats Rock said:


> It all depends on what you use goats for. I ship milk, I would not want to drink milk from an animal that had an abscess, nor would I want to sell that animal at a sale. I would never be sure, if I sold it outright, with full disclosure, that those people wouldn't sell it down the road. So, if CL ever rears its ugly head here, the goat would humanely be put down.
> 
> For other people, that may not be what they would want to do. It all depends on ones circumstances at the time.


All mine our rescued unwanted goats and now I have a completely closed trip of goats. I will not take more in and never will part with one. These are my pets, yup all 15. It says CL doesn't affect milk BUT I understand that you have to be extremely careful. With mine, all are completely loved and never would I humanely or otherwise put down an otherwise healthy goat. I hope soon they find something to itraticate this awful disease! My goats vet knows how much I love my goats and she also knows I'd never adopt one out or sell one because as I said it would be like getting rid of family to me.


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## Debra P

mjs500doo said:


> I also feel as if CL is too hyped up. I try not to purposely purchase a positive animal, but treatment and prevention from further spreading is relatively easy compared to other diseases.


I completely agree with you. Once again all mine had once been unwanted BUT not with me! I couldn't adore them more! Yes, I do have to be very aware and careful that non of the others are EXPOSED...and I can't kill a goat that is otherwise healthy and now happy. I won't take more in because of the CL and never even if this bacteria never reared its ugly head...never would or could I give up a true family member...that's how I feel about each one. I never wanted this but I was certainly not going to kill my goat. 99 percent of the year they're healthy and always happy even in the sick penI just pay more attention to those set apart for awhile. this was last year dealing with a cyst ohhh and PLEASE everyone remember most cyst are not CL! I've had two form cysts that I looked close at and found a tiny piece of wood inside! Some people freak out and the minute a cyst is found its CL which isn't usually the case.


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## Debra P

AmyBoogie said:


> Thank you guys for all the experience.
> I wonder if there is anyone with dairy instead of meat that keeps CL animals or has any management ideas with them. I'm feeling like if one of my girls caught something then she'd just be a pet for the rest of her life and live in a "CL pen" away from all the others when there are abscesses.
> 
> _And to think, my family claims I never plan ahead. Not that I plan on building the separate pen unless I need it._


That's great but hopefully you will never have to deal with CL. I've had two goats that formed cyst but it was because a splinter had irritated the surrounding tissue one it was out all was normal


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## Debra P

TDG-Farms said:


> Jddolan, the key word there is MAY. They MAY also become chronic and grow one right after another or even grow more then one at a time. They MAY also grow them in their lungs and other areas internally. If in the lungs though, coughing can spread the bacterium to other animals. And they MAY just grow the one. Which would be the best MAY outta em all
> 
> Here is a pretty good read. http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl.shtml


Yes but fewer goats become infected internally. Unfortunately for sheep they get the internal type more than goats do.


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## Debra P

TDG-Farms said:


> OR you test, move positives to their own pen or cull them. Make sure the negative pens, shelters and anything else is cleaned as best you can and test every 6 months for a couple of years. If after 2-3 years all your negatives remain as such, then you are pretty assured you are clean. Though, for as long as there is positive animals on the farm, there is always going to be a danger of them getting out and accidentally infecting a clean animal.


They can only infect another goat if a cyst is open and has puss coming from it. When I see a cyst start, daily I check them and it can take months before anything comes from it and I've had one goat form the cyst, it seemed overnight and I keep my eye on it a number of times a day.


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## Debra P

Pixie13 said:


> AmyBoogie, I am really glad that you started this thread. I have always had a lot of questions about Cl. It is a lot to take in. There are so many different opinions. We are still new to goats, and have so much to learn. My husband and I are going to take our little ober herd to the vet to be tested soon. I am so afraid that some or all might come back with positive results. None of ours have any lumps on them, but that still doesn't mean one of them may not be carrying it. It is all very scary. Working with goats sure isn't easy. Especially for people like me that have so much to learn. Anyway, thanks for starting this thread.


I know this is an old post BUT I hope everyone understands that false positives are very possible! If a goats even had just exposure they can test positive even though they don't have CL. false positives are a big reason people lose goats. A positive result and many are IMMEDIATELY culled. Theres also a very good vaccine that is actually made from the very bacteria in the herd. You have to get puss and send it out to a lab that makes that specific strain of CL vaccine. Theres many different types of bacteria that's why just purchasing a vaccine doesn't usually work. Plus I'm not sure if you read but my goats vet didn't want to vaccinate my goats with just a vaccine that may not work on the strain my goat has...be extremely careful with cl vaccine until they make a better one I won't use it


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## Jessica84

Bump


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## TCOLVIN

Jessica84 said:


> Bump


Well, even though this is an old post, I'm not giving the vaccine. I have one with it and I monitor her. There has been no change that I can see in almost a year. I just feed her extra things like garlic, vitamin C chewables, BOSS and oats and alfalfa. She is pregnant and due In January 2020. She still has the 3 small lumps in her neck. The vet told me not to lance unless they ripened. No hair loss , no size change and still looks great and full of energy.


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## happybleats

@Ridekool. Here is a good read on CL.


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## Ridekool

happybleats said:


> @Ridekool. Here is a good read on CL.


Thank you!!


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## Debra P

Ridekool said:


> Thank you!!


I just saw that there was a discussion on CL in goats...as I've told you I searched for many years always looking for something anything new that would help...I had 4 goats catch CL, because I rescue goats I certainly don't ever receive vet paperwork! One very abused beautiful boy named Rome, was so scared of people he'd go right down on his knees if I walked by him..Finally I got him to take a carrot from my hand, as he took the carrot I slid my finger down his chin and felt something wet..it was CL, but never ever will I cull my goats! I separated them in the sick pen when the cyst started getting soft in the middle. When it was ready to pop I would put medication for babies when they are teething which helped..for years I delt with this CL but I found a complete CURE! It's now been about 4 years since any cyst would break out..it's really easy to completely get rid of CL, and no I'm not some kind of nut case, I just did tons of searching for anything to either slow it down or cure! Its a drug you will need a prescription for from your vet, draxxin is what completely cured all the cysts! I didn't think it would cute it but just slow it down so it wouldn't pop while they were with my other gosts...all you have a do in when a cyst starts forming just inject about 1 and a half cc in the middle of the cyst..this was one of the biggest one that Phoenix had..this huge cyst just disappeared after about a month. And there's been no more cyst..yippee..if you have any questions I will give you my cell number 401 258 0767..
It's very easy a few times each week inject the draxxin into the middle of a cyst, don't go in all the way..
I now have a cyst free herd😄


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## Ridekool

My vet did mention that there is a new way to treat CL abscess, Draxxin is likely what she was referring too. I'm still in the (more) reading stage of this disease, treatment options and so worth. Whichever decision I come to, it'll be the one I think is best for the long term health entire herd. I try to never make a decision that I cannot undo without doing as much research as possible.


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## Debra P

Ridekool said:


> My vet did mention that there is a new way to treat CL abscess, Draxxin is likely what she was referring too. I'm still in the (more) reading stage of this disease, treatment options and so worth. Whichever decision I come to, it'll be the one I think is best for the long term health entire herd. I try to never make a decision that I cannot undo without doing as much research as possible.


I had 21 goats I rescued from bad situations, Mellow was the first to start coming down with 3 cyst constantly near her ear. Our first vet told me to cull Mellow..not a chance! She's still with us and I adore my sweet girl. Never would I cull one of my goats, so we have another vet that is actually doing exactly what I did with draxxin because she refuses to cull a healthy goat! OK go with your vet .bye never would I have culled this sweet girl that was otherwise healthy and still with us










Ridekool said:


> My vet did mention that there is a new way to treat CL abscess, Draxxin is likely what she was referring too. I'm still in the (more) reading stage of this disease, treatment options and so worth. Whichever decision I come to, it'll be the one I think is best for the long term health entire herd. I try to never make a decision that I cannot undo without doing as much research as possible.


I doubt your vet knows about draxxin or drexxin...but do what you decide


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## Ridekool

Debra P said:


> I had 21 goats I rescued from bad situations, Mellow was the first to start coming down with 3 cyst constantly near her ear. Our first vet told me to cull Mellow..not a chance! She's still with us and I adore my sweet girl. Never would I cull one of my goats, so we have another vet that is actually doing exactly what I did with draxxin because she refuses to cull a healthy goat! OK go with your vet .bye never would I have culled this sweet girl that was otherwise healthy and still with us
> View attachment 234758
> 
> 
> I doubt your vet knows about draxxin or drexxin...but do what you decide


My vet is actually quite knowledgeable about her job and does her best to keep herself up-to-date on new drugs, ideas and procedures. What she never does is push her clients into making rash decisions when that decision is irreversible. When she is unaware of a new treatment or cause of a disease she DOES go and dig into it when a client brings it up.


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