# CAE+ now what?



## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I purchased three goats 5 weeks ago. A 2yr old Togg doe, 6 month old Togg buck and 8 month old Lamancha doe. Stupid me listened to the "really nice people" when they said they pulled all kids and heat treated milk to practice CAE prevention - I will never "take someones word for it again!"

The two does have tested positive for CAE through WADDL. The buck is negative (different herd). They are CL and Johnes negative.

I cannot get ahold of the seller. I have left multiple phone messages and sent a certified letter via the post office. 

Do I take them to court and demand my money back $600? That is what I'd like to do  The Togg doe is possibly bred.

The dams of both does were CAE negative when they left their original farms (I've contacted previous breeders) So, basically these people are infecting all kids with their bottle feeding practices.

This is so upsetting. I've read that does can test positive but never develop symptoms, and also that the test is for antibodies, not the actual disease itself. Is there a test for the disease itself? 

I don't feel ethical about reselling the does, without disclosing the virus, but who wants positive goats anyhow.

Suggestions please!!!! And I know I've made a mistake and these goats are in quarantine away from my 10 ND's all negative. I've worked hard for three years to acquire only healthy animals.....until now :mecry:


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

sassykat6181 said:


> Do I take them to court and demand my money back $600? That is what I'd like to do  The Togg doe is possibly bred.


Unfortunately, unless the previous owners guaranteed them to be CAE free I seriously doubt you have legal grounds to sue.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

So sorry...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im so sorry...If the seller isnt upright, and they didnt give a statement (through letter, emails or text ) stating CAE negative, youre stuck...

here is a few ideas...
You can keep them seperate from your herd and let them kid, then retain the kids if you want that blood line or...
Some have great success with keeping seperate herds, but you will need two of everything, tables, clippers ect....
Find a home who needs just a few..fully disclosed..
I was lucky and found a single home for my girls...a person who didnt have any goats at the time and just wanted a few for milk and enjoyment...they were sold CHEAP without papers with full discloser...OR

There are more and more CAE postive farms who buy quality animals with CAE ..You can advertise, or ask around...they will not pay top dollar...

personally I would not sell at the Sale barn because it contributes to the problem, but the meat market, where they go straight to butcher is another option : (


Its sad that people can care so little about being part of the problem..again, Im very sorry..

I do not think There is a test for the disease, only the antibodies ...what was their % On their test....


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Where did you have them tested?


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Had them tested through WADDL. Haven't gotten the papers back yet for %. 


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

If the Togg doe is bred, what are my chances of clean kids if I pull at birth and feed colostrum and milk from a negative ND doe of mine? 

I could then dry off the doe and figure out what to to with her 

Could I also sell the Lamancha as "pet only" and disclose her + status? 


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

They are the sweetest goats....such a shame  


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

sassykat6181 said:


> If the Togg doe is bred, what are my chances of clean kids if I pull at birth and feed colostrum and milk from a negative ND doe of mine?
> 
> I could then dry off the doe and figure out what to to with her
> 
> ...


I believe pulling at birth is actually how most manage the disease. Don't let babies nurse at all and I'm thinking some don't even let mama clean the babies. Be there when she kids and take them from mama as they hit the ground. You could sell as pet only and disclose the + status. My question is....how can you be certain the person buying as pet only will honor that? Just wondering...


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Yes, you could kid the doe out and pull the kids.. Don't let momma clean the kid or let the kid nurse.. Then yah, drying the doe up would be good.. 

I agree.. It's hard selling them as pets only... You just don't know if thT person will keep their word.. Or if they sell them down the road and the next buyer breeds them.. :/


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Unfortunately nothing legal can be done, but i would spread the word to other breeders that those people are dishonest. So other people don't go through the trouble....
And people have been successful in advertising cae goats as special needs pets, so potential buyers are more wary and responsible.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Like when advertising, state that the goats have a caprine form of AIDS, and they (potential buyers) can help by giving these goats a good life while protecting other goats from this serious illness.
Just something to interest animal lovers and scare off careless irresponsible breeders.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

There is a long CAE post that has some good info about what to do with kids outta CAE positive does. More or less pull them at birth. Dont let the moms lick their faces and make sure to keep blood outta their mouths. Wash em and bottle raise em. Dry off the moms. You will need to pen the positive does separate from the negative animals. A common mistake is not to do so and babies being babies, if an udder stops infront of them, they dont care whos it is and will snitch drinks. If the doe is positive, bam.

As for court. You can take anyone at any time for any reason to small claims court. Id suggest going to the court house and finding out what you need to do to get started. Once you start it, contact the breeder again and inform them if they do not respond and discuss options with you, you will send the court papers in and start the claim against them. OR you can higher a cheap lawyer to have his assistant to send out a letter to the the breeder demanding they come get their positive animals and a refund for all lost moneys.

By not replying to you, they are making it pretty obvious they knew exactly what they were doing or at the least knew their cae "practice" prevention program wasnt working. Id do everything in my power to make them refund not only the price of the animals, but the price of the care since you have had them, AND the price of the testing. Granted in the end, if they dont reply, you are outta luck unless you file the small claims court paper. Alls it would take is a small piece of evidence to sway a judge. An ad somewhere saying they are CAE negative would be great.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I sent a certified letter with my intentions to file against them in court if they didn't respond and settle this the nice way. That was last Tuesday. There aren't any emails, as she wanted "phone calls only" per the ad. I do have a sheet of paper with all the notes I took during our conversation. I also have emails from the original breeder stating that the mama does were in fact CAE negative when they left the farm. So these two does would have been clean, had they been left on their dams 

I also know the people were having trouble with their local health inspector for having too many goats. So, Monday, he will be my next call. 

Thanks all! What do I have to lose in small claims court other than $50 and time? The goats are in their own pen, away from the others, and I feed them last and clean my boots everytime.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Sounds like you are on the right track Kat. I like that you are taking extra precautions with the positives. But you actually dont have to go that far. CAE doesnt live but a few mintues out of the body and even then only in body fluid. The eating last is good if they are all eating outta the same thing but the boot washing isnt needed with CAE. For CL or Johnes, that would be a great thing to do. But always better to be safe then sorry. And if that gives you piece of mind, do it


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Sellers responded with a certified letter today but darned husband didn't sign for it (I was selling at the farmers market). So now it's going to eat at me all weekend  ugh


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you are heading in the right direction.....And TDG is correct..I had three CAE positives living their whole lives here with my negative does without problem...of course once we new they were positive I seperated them but only because there were in milk , which ups the precausionary need by a ton!!
the milk is highly contagious, couldnt have babies stealing milk from the wrong mom...

best wishes


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Picked up the letter from the seller today. It said "we told you we didn't test, and that we pull and bottle feed all kids as our CAE prevention. Prevention is not 100% effective"

What kind of BS answer is that?!?!

My feeling is: call health inspector and tell him the story and file in small claims court for them to take the animals back and refund my $600. Even if I lose, I feel it's my duty to stop these people from breeding, infecting and selling unhealthy animals.

Opinions?


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

So for prevention is bottle feeding. So what are they bottle feeding raw goat milk? My educated guess would be they milking positive does right along with their possibly negative does. I say go for it. Its worth the try.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If it is worth it to you then do it. If nothing else it will hopefully make them be clearer on their CAE prevention practices.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

They must be mixing milk from + and - does. I have spoken with the original owners of the dams and both tested negative before they were sold. So there really isn't a reason that these two does should be + except for their bottle feeding practices. Ugh! And with kidding season coming up, how many more are they going to infect? And sell?


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## GoatieGranny (Jul 26, 2013)

I don't think it would hurt to try. I think we would go for it, especially since you have proof that they were negative before these people bought them. Even if you don't get your money back, it may prompt the sellers to be a bit more responsible with their goats.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

From the sounds of it, they don't test their does. I bet what happened is the kids were sneaking milk from other does. A lot of times around here, people never test, but pull kids to bottle feed while still leaving them in the same area as the adults. I feel like you would not have a chance on winning because the only thing they claimed was kids are bottle fed for prevention. They didn't give you a guarantee on cae-.
I personally have not tested mine as of yet, but I tell people so in correspondences previous to purchase.I also tell them they are dam raised. So sorry this happened to you, but I don't think you'd win unfortunately.Then again, you never know until you try! :hug:


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Its either kids or piss poor milking practices. You can give cae to a negative doe by milking a positive doe then milking a negative doe and not clean milking equipment in between. That's why cae+ does should be milked last.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Even if I make sure no one else gets unhealthy goats from these people it'll be worth it. 

The goats are quarantined to one stall for now, away from the others, so I have the time.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

There can be no prevention program in place if they are not separating positives from negatives PERIOD.
There can be no prevention program in place if they do not pasteurize the milk correctly every time, feed fresh milk from a TESTED negative doe or feed with some sort of replacer. 

Anyone can say they have a prevention program in place. But if they dont have paper work proof, then they are either to lazy to test, to cheap or know they have infected animals. And considering testing isnt all that expensive and will up the value of an animal beyond the cost of the testing anyways, the reasons they dont test, quickly become clear. As a breeder who sells "clean" animals, it is their sole responsibility to offer just that.

Now on a side note. If they informed you that they had positive animals but have a prevention program in place. It then becomes your responsibility to evaluate their efforts and buy accordingly. In order to effectively win a small claims suit, you will have to prove they either lied or deceived you into thinking the animals you were buying would be negative when in fact they either were not or were not likely to be negative due to their practices. In order do that you will need some effective examples of prevent programs that worked. Which I think a few of us can help with. To show that their practices were grossly inadequate. CAE is an extremely easy disease to deal with and control. Good luck and good fight.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

She did tell me they didn't test, but that they pulled all kids and bottle fed pasteurized milk. She made no mention of knowing any were positive (I wouldn't have bought them with that chance) In my research I looked up the farms where the dams were born. Both tested negative previously. I should not have assumed that with their prevention program and negative dams that the kids would be negative. 

I am going to file the court papers this week. If nothing else, maybe I can get her to clean up her act. I take care in having a clean, negative herd and it angers me that someone can be so careless with such an awful disease

I am also going to draw blood on the togg doe to see if she is in fact pregnant right now. She was exposed to the buck before I bought her


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I hope you win


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

"In order do that you will need some effective examples of prevent programs that worked. Which I think a few of us can help with. To show that their practices were grossly inadequate."

Okay, so who would we willing to write a small letter for me? Pretty please with a cherry on top 

*I'll even send you a bottle of my Goats milk lotion for free for helping me out*


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok.....I have an email from each farm stating that the dams were tested negative prior to leaving.

That's a start I think


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Good luck! Sometimes good guys (you) finish first! Sending good thoughts and crossing my fingers for a favorable
outcome!


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

I've been this route and am doing it again after I had to replace my entire herd and some were CAE+.

Pull at birth. No licking, no feeding, no contact with mom after they clear the birth canal. 

Some people don't pasteurize correctly, not high enough temp or not long enough to kill the virus. It's usually the colostrum that is improperly treated. Using cow colostrum or goats from a certified CAE- doe is best.

I test through Biotracking.

I have no problem milking my CAE+ does. I will keep them here until they are either symptomatic and need to be PTS or until they die of old age. I drink the milk and pasteurize for the kids (I do not use colostrum from them, I don't trust the pasteurizing process). Colostrum in the first 24-48 hours is the riskiest time for transferring the virus, since that is when the kid will absorb it the most. After that it requires an open wound to allow entry. (latest school of thought anyway)

I never had a problem with an CAE + animal transferring the virus to another animal via casual contact. I used to test yearly just to make sure. That is something that would be personal preference.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Thanks lotsagoats. My hopes are to get the seller to take them back.....it's just too much hassle to keep everyone separate and then worry about them kidding when I'm not present. If I don't win in court then ill definitely pull the kids from the togg then....get rid of her. I am going to pull blood tomorrow and send to bio tracking to confirm is she is indeed pregnant. I might as well retest for CAE and see what % they come up with. 
If I pull the kids and bottle raise on one of my neg does milk, then I could keep them and the togg buck that is neg also then breed them later as they won't be related at all

The lamancha is too young to breed so ill probably just rehome her without papers and make sure the owners know her status.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

So I sent blood to Biotracking as a retest.....got the results back today via email. Togg doe is 83% positive for CAE and Lamancha doe is 58% positive. So they are definitely + Filling out the necessary court documents tomorrow and sending them in on Monday. I was really hoping maybe they were a low positive, but the breeders are clearly not heat treating and pasteurizing properly


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I hope in the long run this works out for you...its hard enough when folks don't test ( like me for so long) but when folks sell knowing full well it can be an issue...that is so wrong!!


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

sassykat6181 said:


> She did tell me they didn't test, but that they pulled all kids and bottle fed pasteurized milk. She made no mention of knowing any were positive (I wouldn't have bought them with that chance) In my research I looked up the farms where the dams were born. Both tested negative previously. I should not have assumed that with their prevention program and negative dams that the kids would be negative.
> 
> I am going to file the court papers this week. If nothing else, maybe I can get her to clean up her act. I take care in having a clean, negative herd and it angers me that someone can be so careless with such an awful disease
> 
> I am also going to draw blood on the togg doe to see if she is in fact pregnant right now. She was exposed to the buck before I bought her


Is it possible that being so young that your two kids were fed CAE positive but pasteurized milk and they have not turned negative yet??

They usually say a kid fed CAE positive but pasteurized milk will show positive for at least 6 months. I know my friend who had one and it took 9 months for him to show up negative.

OK I bought a goat years ago that the breeder said that she used to pasteurize all the kids but then they all tested negative so she went back to dam raising. BUT- the last month she fed all her kids milk to make them tame and she bought 2 does and fed all the kids milk and contaminated her entire kid crop including the doe kid I bought.

That was 1994 and I've raised all of my kids pasteurized since that time.

I did not test or segregate the positives or negatives, nor do I test now.
I have had no goats with symptoms since 1994 and while I do not test I have had numerous goats of mine tested later by buyers and they were negative.

I tell people that I pasteurize but I do not test so I do not guarantee that they will be negative, but if somebody ever came back and told me they were I'd give them their money back.

But I would never consider any goat raised pasteurized to be 100% safe from being postive nor would I EVER buy a goat that was dam raised even if the whole herd tested negative.

There are a tremendous number of things that can be passed from the dam to the daughter besides CAE if you allow the kids to nurse.

If you decide to keep your goats and pasteurize the kids here are some tips for you:

#1 when the kid is born as soon as it is born and the head pops out start wiping the mucous away from the nose back toward the ears to prevent the kids from ingesting any blood.

#2 put the kid in the bathtub and run warm water over it and wash everything off it.

#3 be sure your thermometer is correct.

#4 always feed the kids before you have milked, so there is no raw milk anywhere on your arms.

#5 if you are using a pasteurizer check it and also set it so if it goes off you will have about 5 degrees safety factor. During kidding feeding I like to have my pasteurizer set to 170.

#6 Be sure to raise your kids in an area totally separate from the adult herd. I believe horizontal transmission is rare, but if you have your adult goats and kids together you are taking a risk.

#7 on your adult goats do not let them lick your hands if you have milked.
Be sure to totally disbud them. Cracking off scurs and ingesting blood is one way horizontal transmission can occurr. Don't use the same dosing syringe or needles to worm or vaccinate.

I normally do not put herd replacements in with the adults till they are around 6 mo old.

I much prefer to sell people kids out of the kid pen. They are all raised on pasteurized milk and never have been with the adults. Worms, coccidia, some forms of mastitis are reduced by this way.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I respect what you do,and I understand why. I also respect the level of care you take to do it right.. but that just takes all the fun out of it for me....I prefer natural dam-raised kids. I agree it can be risky for cae, but I think any creature should raise it's own young (as a whole, of course there are exceptions).


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

NyGoatMom said:


> I respect what you do,and I understand why. I also respect the level of care you take to do it right.. but that just takes all the fun out of it for me....I prefer natural dam-raised kids. I agree it can be risky for cae, but I think any creature should raise it's own young (as a whole, of course there are exceptions).


Most people do not like to milk even though they raise dairy goats so for them dam raising is the way to go.

Also for many women they vicariously re experience childbirth and nursing thru their goats so they prefer dam raising.


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

I raise my goats for milk. I prefer to dam raise. Its not that I vicarisouly want relive any birthing or nursing experience. Having bottle raised and dam raised, in my known experience I find dam raised kids to be healthier all around. 

But it is my choice, and I respect anyone's choice for their own herd. I do not respect someone trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

sassykat6181 said:


> She did tell me they didn't test, but that they pulled all kids and bottle fed pasteurized milk. She made no mention of knowing any were positive


As much as I hate to see that you got taken by this breeder....you state right here that she TOLD you they don't test. I don't test either. If you ask me, I'll tell you that. That doesn't make me responsible if a doe you buy from me does test positive because I already told you I don't test, so I honestly won't know if any are. Just like your situation. Be prepared that based on that, you are not going to win any court case. She didn't lie to you. She didn't "knowingly" sell you something she knew was diseased. If she doesn't test, she CAN'T know that they are positive. Sorry, I know that's not the popular consensus here, but that's the way it is. 



Hollowdweller said:


> Also for many women they vicariously re experience childbirth and nursing thru their goats so they prefer dam raising.


I actually find myself mildly insulted by this statement. I've been thru 3 full term pregnancies and nursed all 3 for as long as I could. Does that mean that regardless of what animals I raise I am trying to "relive" those experiences? I don't think so. And I'm betting the majority of women on here would say the exact same thing. There is nothing to even suggest that your statement is remotely true. Raising animals requires that you breed them to have babies. Guess that means all men that breed and raise animals are trying to vicariously experience childbirth and nursing. Really?


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Well Carmen I'm glad I'm not the only woman insulted by that. That maybe my hormones were getting bthe best of me.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I honestly had to read it a few times to really believe someone actually said that! And then I had to wait a few minutes to decide whether or not to respond to it. LOL I had to tho once I saw your post.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Well that went in a totally different direction lol

I didn't pay a little bit of money for these goats, I paid $300 each. When someone tells you they pull all kids and bottle feed to practice CAE prevention, you do the reading and think that the goats SHOULD be clean. These are not babies, one is 2, the other is 10 months. Their 83% and 58% arent going to return to negative. Just waiting on the pregnancy results since they were with the buck before I got them 

I prefer to dam raise, and all my NDs have tested negative for 4 yrs now. If I am stuck with these goats and they're pregnant, you can bet your a$$ I'll be pulling them at birth and bottle feeding colostrum and milk from another doe!


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

And that is all you can do if you do get stuck with them, besides freezer camp...


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Hollowdweller said:


> Also for many women they vicariously re experience childbirth and nursing thru their goats so they prefer dam raising.


:ROFL: I am not one of those! :ROFL: Thanks, five birthing experiences was enough for me! The reason I dam raise is because I believe the way God intended is how I prefer to do things whenever possible 

Oh, and I have not tested my dairy goats yet, I do milk, and I do dam raise. I do plan on testing soon, though.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

sassykat6181 said:


> Well that went in a totally different direction lol
> 
> I didn't pay a little bit of money for these goats, I paid $300 each. When someone tells you they pull all kids and bottle feed to practice CAE prevention, you do the reading and think that the goats SHOULD be clean. These are not babies, one is 2, the other is 10 months. Their 83% and 58% arent going to return to negative. Just waiting on the pregnancy results since they were with the buck before I got them
> 
> I prefer to dam raise, and all my NDs have tested negative for 4 yrs now. If I am stuck with these goats and they're pregnant, you can bet your a$$ I'll be pulling them at birth and bottle feeding colostrum and milk from another doe!


Didn't it tho? :ROFL:

I understand your frustration. I'm just giving you what she's going to say and how it may very well be looked at by the court. She TOLD you she didn't test. She said she "practiced CAE prevention". But since she doesn't test, she doesn't know if any are CAE positive and that's exactly what she said. I would most likely have assumed the same thing you did. And...would have been upset too. I'm just saying be prepared that you are going to have the court costs on top of the expense of the goats and still be in the same boat before you went to court. Having said all that...I truly hope you win!

I prefer to dam raise cause I really, really dislike bottle babies! (bet you are all sick of hearing me say that LOL)


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

^ I'm not a bottle baby fan myself lol! But I always seem to end up with one or two lol!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Nope, not sick of hearing you say it...I would hate it too :lol: I'd do it if I needed to, but I prefer mom to do it  I bottle fed and breast fed enough dang kids already in my own life, rather not do it again!


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I refused to bottle feed my 2 human children, I most certainly do not want to bottle feed goats!

But, looks like I might have to: Just called Biotracking and the Togg doe is pregnant. The lamancha is open.

Good news is the ND doe that was giving me trouble for the past 2 seasons finally settled. WOOHOO!!!!

I feel that even if I lose in court, I can at least get her to clean up her act!

Plus, I will have kid(s) from the Togg doe to pull and keep then I'll sell the Lamancha (assuming the court doesn't favor me) There's really not much cost involved, the papers get mailed. And with Connecticut, usually they try to resolve the issue over the phone with a magistrate.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

woohooo! on the ND!! That's awesome!! 

Hopefully it will make her clean up her act and noone else will end up where you are. I, however, don't have that much faith in most people's honesty. She is going to claim she did nothing wrong...she didn't lie...she didn't deliberately mislead you...SHE has nothing to change. 

At least you DO have a plan already in place. You know what you are going to do. THAT is half the battle. And you DID learn a lesson...albeit not one you wanted to learn. 

I wasn't able to nurse my human babies very long so I did bottle feed them. There is a vast difference in how I felt when feeding them and how I feel feeding a bottle baby or even watching a baby animal nurse off of mama! There is NO comparison.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

You have entered... The twilight zone  AND no. For all you younger fokes, this has nothing to do with vampires that glitter in the sun


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

tdg-farms said:


> you have entered... The twilight zone  and no. For all you younger fokes, this has nothing to do with vampires that glitter in the sun


lol!


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> You have entered... The twilight zone  AND no. For all you younger fokes, this has nothing to do with vampires that glitter in the sun


Gosh I sure miss that show...the original one. It was so cool.

Carmen, Oleo Acres LLC, NW Ks


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

That and Alfred Hitchcock Presents...They have that one on netflix...


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Hollowdweller said:


> Also for many women they vicariously re experience childbirth and nursing thru their goats so they prefer dam raising.


Excuse me?


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Must've been verbal diarrhea.....I've been pondering that statement all afternoon and still can't wrap my head around it.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm thinking we can chalk it up to a serious case of sexism with a good bit of neanderthal tendencies mixed in for good measure.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

HEY! I resemble that remark! hehe 

On a side note, I dont much care for the new name. I so much enjoyed calling you crazy


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Dave I don't get an impression of you, I did however get the impression you may be to macho to know about vampires that glitter in the sun. Lol


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

^ hahahaha!


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

I just started ghosting through this, and I have to say I'm very sorry to hear about your positive goats. It sounds like you've done hour homework on CAE though and are going to take the right measures to ensure it doesn't spread. Which, is great!  I hope you get your money back or some kind of resolution. 



> Also for many women they vicariously re experience childbirth and nursing thru their goats so they prefer dam raising.


:shock: As for this statement I have to say I'm a bit lost on that. I believe in dam raising. I think it's better for the babies, the mom's appreciate it more, and I test my entire herd yearly. Anyway, I feel that way and I've never _even had_ a baby.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

HerdQueen said:


> Dave I don't get an impression of you, I did however get the impression you may be to macho to know about vampires that glitter in the sun. Lol


Actually after finally watching the first one with my other half (she read the books) I kinda liked it. Even ended up going to watch the last 2 in the theater with her. Am no twihard by any means but as far as movies go, not to bad. Granted the vampires are more like fairies.


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

My husband, the big over macho 6'7" man watched all the movies with me. We enjoyed them.


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## Dodgerdoob (Feb 11, 2014)

I am in a somewhat similar situation with a registered Oberhasli doe. "Everyone was bottle fed heat treated milk." But she came back positive. I am fortunate that I have a couple of siblings with young children and she can go to one of them and be a pet for the rest of her days. I'll just chalk it up to a lesson learned the hard way and hope my wife consults me before bringing home another goat.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I mailed the breeder the "intent to sue" today and will mail the court their copies once hers is delivered. I also spoke with the animal control officer in her town and he gave me the number of the state animal control officer. The local guy was very disturbed and plans to make a visit once I've spoken with the state officer.

Someone needs to be held liable and she needs to stop infecting healthy animals and selling them to other possibly unsuspecting buyers.

My bigger concern, that I thought of today......they show their milking does....which means their contaminated milk could possibly come into contact with other peoples healthy animals!


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

Wow. That is disturbing. 

Even worse than the milk is that if they're not testing yearly they could be bringing positive does to shows! Scary..


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## lanafana (Apr 22, 2013)

This just happened to my family recently. I feel your pain. I really wish I had the guts to sue this lady, but I don't. She told us the same type of thing. "We pull the babies at birth, we have a closed herd, and we have never had any incidents of CAE or other diseases so we don't test anymore". Now here we are with a CAE + goat and we are stuck with her and I like her a lot. I am concerned that our other goats may have contracted the disease because we didn't know about it when we first got her and she IS in milk. Our other goats are minis and dwarves so it makes me even more concerned because of the closeness to her teats. I hope or all works out for you. We're still trying to figure out how to manage this. I have to follow this thread to see how it goes!!


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Fortunately I have these goats separated and I have filed the court papers to sue. Fingers crossed


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Good luck Katrina, keep us posted.


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

sassykat6181 said:


> Fortunately I have these goats separated and I have filed the court papers to sue. Fingers crossed


Please do keep us updated! Proliferating then selling diseased animals is a terrible thing. Especially because they must know better if they are that big on showing and whanot.


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

Any updates?


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Papers filed, and the seller has until April 16th to respond to the court. Either she'll say she will pay me or we go before the magistrate. I filed for a lot more than I paid, including testing fees and feed. I'd be happy with her picking up the goats and giving me my actual payment amount back just to see them go. What kills me is they are such sweet goats, especially the lamancha. She just wants to cuddle


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## Chadwick (Jan 24, 2014)

That is sad.


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Its good they are friendly, maybe they will find a good pet home.

I hope you get a resolution soon. And I hope they learn to practice a little more caution when breeding, raising, and selling going forward. Some people have to learn the hard way.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Seller filed that she is not to blame. A court date with the magistrate will be set. 

Meanwhile she is selling the remaining buck "for Easter" and her bottle raised (undisclosed infected) kids to unassuming buyers 

I am beyond mad at how the system works and at this point don't care if I get my money back. It's the principle and she needs to clean up her practices!!!!!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Can't blame you. At least the word is getting out a bit.


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

sassykat6181 said:


> I mailed the breeder the "intent to sue" today and will mail the court their copies once hers is delivered. I also spoke with the animal control officer in her town and he gave me the number of the state animal control officer. The local guy was very disturbed and plans to make a visit once I've spoken with the state officer.
> 
> Someone needs to be held liable and she needs to stop infecting healthy animals and selling them to other possibly unsuspecting buyers.
> 
> My bigger concern, that I thought of today......they show their milking does....which means their contaminated milk could possibly come into contact with other peoples healthy animals!


I thought most shows had to have proof of negative CL/CAE tests? That is scary if it isn't monitored as closely as I was under the impression it was! I have been wanting to show my goats for a while and just haven't had the money to do it yet and don't want to have to worry about taking my "clean" animals and catching something!


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## LamanchaAcres (Jan 11, 2013)

They dont look for tst results at the shows we go to. The goats just need to be free of abcesses, ringworm and any other major illnesses. 


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

At your own risk for shows


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

sassykat6181 said:


> At your own risk for shows


Yikes... that's pretty scary...


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

That is scary!!


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

Around here for shows some breeders just put tarps up on the walls of the stall so that their goats can't touch the others through the wall, and don't let their goats sniff or get to close to anyone else's walking around. Thinking about it though, it would be pretty hard to transmit CAE at a show since it mostly can be passed through blood, milk, or even (although it's debated) semen. Still it's not very responsible to take + does to shows and it's always good to keep your animals away from other herds, just because you can never be sure what might be floating through someone's herd. My one breeder friend catches a lot of grief around here for putting up the tarp and insisting on keeping her goats away, but hey if it keeps your herd happy and healthy who's to judge you?  I plan on following her lead with my girls.

Hope you get justice, and this lady is forced to clean up her act. People are just disappointing. :angry:


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

She did not show test results on the goats you bought. You should have requested they be tested before you bought them. This business just makes me sick and not want to sell any kid on the off chance they are positive and I get sued. I am new to goats and probably not as informed as I should be, but live and learn, which is what I am doing.


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## penguinacres (Jan 21, 2014)

Wow, thank you for sharing. I would never have imagined that could happen but I will continue to be wary with my girls and new girls I decide to
Bring in 


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

The dams were tested negative and they "practice CAE prevention". I figured I'd be in the clear. 

Won't ever buy untested goats or take anyone's word for it again 

Lesson learned on my part, but she needs to clean up her act


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

It would not be as difficult as you may think to transmit CAE at shows. A lot of breeders over udder their does. And everywhere you look there are does spraying milk all over the place.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Had the trial today before the magistrate. With 49 on the docket we were listed at 27. Defendents wanted to discuss a settlement beforehand so we wouldn't be there all day

They did not test the does to see who's positive. BUT they are only using milk replacer on the three kids born this season. They offered me doe/buck twins, lamanchas, from their negative tested doe as compensation and told me I could keep the others (they are not here anymore). They offered to continue bottle feeding them until weaning and then we will meet half way for me to pick them up. They will be registered to me. They will also pay for the CAE testing at 6 months and if for some reason they are positive we will negotiate another settlement


I think it was a pretty good deal considering I didn't think I'd win. And knowing that they've realized their mistake and are using milk replacer instead is all I could ask for


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Glad they seem to be cleaning up their act!  at least they realized what they did  

Are they planning on getting their herd tested so they know who is +?


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

No. They said "we're only 4H not breeders, and our goats are healthy otherwise"


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

That's sad  they should test them, cull the + ones and then they can be better 4-H breeders.. It's sad that other people and 4-H kids could have gotten + kids


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Glad you got compensation. Hope the new ones are cae-


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Wow , what a story ! Im happy there was a settlement you are in favor of ! And , you lit a fire under them to clean up their act . 

As for the post about wanting to re experience birthing and whatever…..
Really ? Seriously ? :crazy::slapfloor::think::ROFL:


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

^ lmao!!!!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

trickyroo said:


> wow , what a story ! Im happy there was a settlement you are in favor of ! And , you lit a fire under them to clean up their act .
> 
> As for the post about wanting to re experience birthing and whatever&#8230;..
> Really ? Seriously ? :crazy::slapfloor::think::rofl:


 IKR!? :ROFL: :lol:


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

As a 4h leader that irks the crap out ta me. Why do people think 4h kids diserve less then great goats? 

I don't have to live vicariously through my goats, this is my life! And guess what I still dam raise!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Here is the problem I see. You just excepted the same deal but with different goats. You again, took their word for it. They are still letting negatives and positives intermix and they are still at the least assuming which of their goats is negative. Better to have stayed the day, fought and lost then to except the same deal that got you there in the first place...


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I am going to sell them as soon as I get them. I have no plan to mix them with my herd or keep them 
Then I can recoup my costs


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

what a roller coaster of a ride! glad you got some sort of resolution. too bad some people just choose to be so ignorant!

as for the vicariously living through our goats statement....I have never birthed anything, so no....I'm not re-living the experience. nature was meant for mommies to raise babies. I just don't understand how someone can think that? smh.....


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## farmchick897 (Jul 2, 2013)

When you sell them are you going to tell people they have been raised on CAE prevention? Isn't that exactly what she told you and they turned out positive? So what if you end up doing the exact same thing to another buyer? 


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

^ totally agree. You will now have to sell them as at least exposed to CAE unless you test them


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Their mother was tested CAE negative and they were pulled and only fed milk replacer. There weren't any other does bred since they only have one daughter in 4H now


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## farmchick897 (Jul 2, 2013)

If they were trustworthy people and you could rely on their word but they have proven they are not. They obviously have CAE positive animals together and therefore how do you know for a fact these babies are negative? The answer is you don't, unless you wait until they are old enough and run test which is why the seller agreed to have that done at 6 months of age and go from there if they are positive again. The way I see it you are doing the exact same thing as this seller if you sell them as clean animals. 


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

They never claimed to have CAE Free animals to begin with.. Sassykat was only told they were raised on prevention. 
She tested them, they came back + 
That is when the problem started.. Not that she was being lied to from the beginning.. Though I wouldn't say these were real trust worthy people.. But they are trying to make this right between them.. So, I would tend to believe that these kids should truly be CAE free.
And Sassykat never said she wasn't going to disclose it when she sold these kids.


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

I think we should all just be happy for the OP that she has gotten some kind of justice. 

It is an unfortunate situation that she was faced with and she has recounted the story over and over again. What she decides to do with the goats the people are giving to her is up to her and no one else's business. Everyone has their ideas on what is best to do. Let's just leave it at that. She can decide for her herd what is best.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

The lamanchas that I am getting as compensation are from a very well bred doe from a reputable breeder. It is unfortunate that the "current" owners were not good at their CAE prevention practices last season and mixed milk from untested does with those that had been tested.

Knowing the dam is negative and that the kids are being fed milk replacer, and that the breeders offered to test them at 6 months, I feel pretty good about the bargain. I knew going to court that I didn't really have a solid case since they did tell me they didn't test. Lesson learned on my part. My hope in going to court was that they would clean up their practices......and they have.

There is no more argument here, I was just giving an update on how things went, as I know there have been followers.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

update!!!! She tested negative for cae!!!!!!! Yippee


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Yayyy! Congrats, congrats!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

That's great :thumb: Congratulations :stars:


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Wonderful news!


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Karina, what a happy update!

I will say re-reading this thread and watching it morph so many times made me giggle.


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## DonnaBelle66 (Mar 4, 2013)

I have had CAE positive goats for 8 years now. It's OK to drink their milk. They will likely not show any significant signs of the disease. About 80 percent don't. However, about 20 percent will. I had one doe with CAE kid with a hard udder. I milked colostrum and feed the babies after I had her culled. On the positive side, I've had several kid and no signs of the disease. I too was sold a positive breeding doe when I started in goats in 2008. I didn't know she had anything wrong with her for about three months. Until I posted a photo of her on a goat site and someone PM'd me to look at her front knees for the obvious swelling a sign of goat arthritis brought on by CAE. She lived another 7 years and was in milk 3 times for me. I have kept all the kids, except for wethers for meat. I take very good care of my goats, fresh water, hay, mineral, bicarb, etc. All shots and vaccines regularly. What can you do? Take them to the sale barn I guess and pass them on to someone else or keep them yourself and take care of them and deal with whatever happens. Also, CAE tests can sometimes false positive. So you might have them tested again by a different lab. Good luck and I do feel your pain. Have been where you are.


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