# Help - questions regarding organic feed



## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

Hi everyone, new to goats and trying to figure out a good quality feed for my two dairy doelings. I plan on breeding them next month and milking next year. I'd like to go organic and came across a local feed store that carries some organic feed. (The website link to the product is below) I see a "Dairy goat pellet" and am hoping I can get some opinions on it? There is also a soy-free pellet but it has less protein, I could add BOSS to the mix and perhaps a 12% sweet feed as well? I free feed a very high quality leafy alfalfa in one feeder and bermuda grass in another. They also get 1 cup each of Purina Noble goat (non-medicated) morning and night. Mornings only they get 1/2 cup BOSS, 1/2 cup 7% horse sweet feed while they stand on the milk stand. They have SWEETLIX 16:8 Meat Maker and baking soda in front of them 24/7

http://www.modestomilling.com/livestock.html


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

And...There goes that theory...

I see many people claiming that GMO's can not be labeled as organic. ALL Canola is GMO. It is a made up plant that didn't exist before being engineered. 

I don't see the benefit of the food myself. It's mostly corn and wheat, things that aren't the best for our goats. In my opinion you'd do better mixing your own whole grains.


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

GMOs I really want to stay away from.... so Organic doesn't mean non GMO? Jeezzz. I really want to educate myself and stay away from that crap.


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

I came across this http://www.nongmosourcebook.com/non-gmosourcebook/nongmoanimalfeedsuppliers.php "Modesto Milling" is listed as a Non-GMO Project verified company


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I want to try something with the grains they have listed there. Give me a bit of time to do some figuring and some chores. I'll be back in an hour or so...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I guess it would depend on how they define GMO. Canola has been around for years and years. It was one of Canada's first GMO's. It does reproduce it's self now somewhat. It doesn't have weird genes spliced in but, they did change the genetics of the plant to produce different acids. It is Rape seed but, it's been bred not to be poisonous...


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

goathiker said:


> I want to try something with the grains they have listed there. Give me a bit of time to do some figuring and some chores. I'll be back in an hour or so...


That would be great! Thanks!!


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## christinajh (Jan 24, 2013)

Goathiker helped me on another thread mix up my own mix of grain. I was attempting completely organic, but it became too expensive. I chose to go with a mix that did not have typical GMO ingredients (soy, corn, etc). My goats have been doing well on it. I do use alfalfa pellets with it, and I know a lot of alfalfa is GMO. I'll be tackling that part sometime in the future, but I'm happy I cut out two of biggest GMO culprits.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here's some info on Canola http://customers.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/canola.htm


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

Thank you for that link, I will check it out  I just called the feed store and man.... the whole grains from that mill are expensive!! I am REALLY looking forward to what you come up with Goathiker. I am really, really grateful.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

So, the basis for my grain for my goats is oats and rolled barley. Anything else is extra. Right now they being fed field run oats and alfalfa hay. No one is milking much and they are all in the first 3 months of pregnancy. They look good. 
Now everything that I do assumes that the goat is being fed alfalfa in some form and free choice minerals. I also give kelp for trace minerals, until next summer when the Japan reactor pollution hits. If I can't source Atlantic kelp at that time I will need a different Iodine supplement. 
For milking girls oats and barley mixed half and half does very well. This mixture is a little low on A&D vitamins. Alfalfa hay makes up for that. Field peas could be added for more calcium, vitamins, and that intangible something that feeding peas brings. I prefer to add a small amount of safflower oil rather than spend a fortune on BOSS. Flax can be given once a week. It should be boiled to jelly before fed. 
I was working with a guy in Bulgaria. He's on his third year of feeding oats and barley top-dressed with split peas from the grocery, his goats look wonderful. 

Oats and barley mixed half and half contain about 13% protein, 5% fatty oils. Oats are a staple feed that can never be changed. Because of it's genetic make up the scientists can't play with it. Barley is much the same, barley can be crossbred however. 

Back again soon. Gotta go get ice cream for movies tonight. If you have particular questions please ask them. I have a hard time figuring out what people want to know.


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## sarahsbounty (Oct 6, 2013)

We are going to grow oats, alfalfa and sunflowers next year to feed the Nigerians. Are these good choices?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Those are excellent choices. Here's something to think about as well. Once your sunflowers are about 8 inches tall you could plant a vining pea or bean beside it. The bean will climb up the SF and provide more protein to those stalks when you feed them.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I have a couple questions:

How much peas do you add to the grain? Dry or cooked?
Will Sunflower oil take the place of BOSS?

Thanks Jill.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I would use the peas as most people use BOSS a 1/4 to a 1/2 a cup on the grain ration. They are expensive and hard to come by in some places. They are used dry and uncooked.

Yes. your sunflower oil is taking the place of the BOSS. For me Safflower is just easier to come by. Other good choices would be Cocoanut, Grape seed, Olive, and Peanut oils.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Ok thanks  Maybe next time we go to costco I will see if they have a bag of split peas in bulk size. Dry ok for them?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

goathiker said:


> I also give kelp for trace minerals, until next summer when the Japan reactor pollution hits. If I can't source Atlantic kelp at that time I will need a different Iodine.


Would it be worth it to buy kelp now and store it?


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Where do you all buy the kelp?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> Would it be worth it to buy kelp now and store it?


I was wondering that same thing...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I think it would be. The shelf life of kelp is 3 years just as it is. If it were packaged with a Seal-a-Meal or Doomsday buckets, I'd bet it would last 30 years. 
I get kelp in #50 bags at the feed store.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

How much do the 50# bags cost you? Might be something worth having them order if possible.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

They're about $90.00, BUT they last my herd over a year.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

How long would we need to wait out the nuclear invasion before buying it again?


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

goathiker said:


> They're about $90.00, BUT they last my herd over a year.


I'm pretty sure you have more goats than me too, so it would last longer for me I would think.


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## sarahsbounty (Oct 6, 2013)

Peas climbing the sunflowers is a great idea. Companion planting. Love it.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

goathiker said:


> They're about $90.00, BUT they last my herd over a year.


I must feed mine too much because I only have 3 and go through a bag in less than a year.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I've read you only need a tsp or tbs either each feeding or once a week... Either way not much.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

ksalvagno said:


> How long would we need to wait out the nuclear invasion before buying it again?


This is a question here. Well, it depends on so much. Reactor #4 has never been contained and is still putting out radiation as we speak. 
Worst case senerio, high radiation, birth defects, and dead oceans will be the new norm for the Pacific coast. Best case? The radiation won't act like the models and it will be nothing. 
I usually bet on something in between.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

ksalvagno said:


> I must feed mine too much because I only have 3 and go through a bag in less than a year.


 Mine may eat less because they also have natural mined mountain salt to lick.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

goathiker said:


> Mine may eat less because they also have natural mined mountain salt to lick.


And where do you get that?


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

That sounds... pleasant


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I get the mined salt at the feed store also. They're called Redmond salt rocks. Look like a pink rock.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Ok, they have those at our TSC. Thanks


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Interesting info. I got my kelp from hoegers, they stated it was from Iceland, so I'm guessing it still will be good to get after the nuclear threat, but I might search for storing some here in the next few months. I was considering getting a couple of those rocks. Do they have iodine?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, the salt rocks do have iodine. It's not as available because it's in mineral form instead of plant form. I think they do help though. You're close to the coast as well. You may want to think about the human animals who may need good iodine as well.


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

Actually, canola is a hybrid originally obtained by crossbreeding of two species of Brassica, and even today is not necessarily gene-spliced (which is what I understand by GMO), although it's a popular crop for use of that technology. There is such thing as organic canola; just check where they source it from. There is such a patchwork of local definitions of "organic" that it's hard to know, without digging, just what a given producer means by it.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Good point


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

So we're all gunna need iodine supplements?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Scottyhorse said:


> So we're all gunna need iodine supplements?


 You, lucky girl, live across the Cascades from us. The particles don't actually contaminate the air. They just get blown in the wind and move around in the water. You should be fine if you aren't eating Pacific seafood.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

goathiker said:


> You, lucky girl, live across the Cascades from us. The particles don't actually contaminate the air. They just get blown in the wind and move around in the water. You should be fine if you aren't eating Pacific seafood.


Ok phew! We do eat seafood but not super often. If you ever want to take a prolonged visit with everyone over here... Lol.


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

Great information! Thank you Goathiker! I can buy the non GMO "Organic" oats, barley, BOSS and peas in 50lb. Bags locally from the mill I posted the link to. For two goats that should last a long time! I do have a question. What about molasses, any value there? 

I'm also wondering about the graining schedule during pregnancy. These are first fresheners, so they'll still be growing but I don't want the kid(s) getting to big pre-birth. One is a mini Mancha the other is a full size La Mancha/Nubian the buck is a mini Mancha. I've also been flushing them prior to breeding in hopes of multiple kids.


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

OK Goathiker I'm going to order Oats, Barley & Peas in 50lb. bags. Dividing the Oats and Barley equally and top dress with whole peas and BOSS. I've ordered the herbal wormer from Molly's and will find Kelp somewhere. Anything else? I keep sweetlix meat maker mineral and baking soda available to them at all times, and fresh, clean water of course. I am wondering about the 13% protein of the mix. I imagine the good quality alfalfa picks it up? Seems most dairy mixes are at least 16% if not more? 

Also same question I posted above, a real concern to me.... I'm also wondering about the graining schedule during pregnancy. These are first fresheners, so they'll still be growing but I don't want the kid(s) getting to big pre-birth. One is a mini Mancha the other is a full size La Mancha/Nubian the buck is a mini Mancha. I'm flushing them prior to breeding in hopes of multiple kids.

And last but not least, THANKS A MILLION!!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes they will get plenty of protein from their alfalfa, usually even more then they need. The peas are going to bring that up as well, they are about 22% protein. 
Now on your FF's I would feed as normal the first 3 months of pregnancy. Then work them down to just a tiny amount(1/2 a cup or less) during the 4th month. Halfway thru the 5th You can start slowing increasing again to give the energy for milk production.


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## sarahsbounty (Oct 6, 2013)

I'm going to chime in and recommend kats book the accessible pet, herbal. Tons of great info. She recommends the non refined molasses. And isn't a fan of free choice baking soda , I believe it leeches some minerals if I remember correctly?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I am not a fan of free choice soda either. The goats make soda naturally when they chew their cud at rest. I don't feel we should mess with that natural process. I've heard of some goats bloating just because they ran out of soda because they could no longer make their own at all. 

Now molasses is a personal choice I guess. I don't use it because we already have too much iron in the environment and fight to give enough copper to the goats to counter it. It also slows down rumen function.

Pat's book is a good one as long as one remembers that she is in Australia.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Strange you mention about the baking soda. I thought I would need to start that again soon, but when I had it free choice they ate it some, but stopped about a month into it, so I took it away. Now, I did offer my doe some that ate too many apples awhile back, she ate some but not a lot. I thought it would help her tummy some. Good to know that they make their own


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I do keep it for an as needed basis and I do put a tiny pinch in one bottle of the day for bottle babies. Other than that I think they should rely on their own bodies.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

goathiker said:


> I do keep it for an as needed basis and I do put a tiny pinch in one bottle of the day for bottle babies. Other than that I think they should rely on their own bodies.


Never thought about putting it in a bottle for bottle babies, that would be good I do have it on hand for as needed, and will continue to do so. 1st due date is 2 months away from tomorrow, can't wait I'm hoping to have twins out of this kinder..... She was bred to my oberhasli though, so hoping everything goes smoothly, this was an accident of course....


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

My Obers always had really small kids compared to my Alpines. The thing to watch is that the forehead is a little broader. If they get slowed down by it, just run your finger in a circle behind their ears to pop moms skin over it. As soon as the head is out pull one front leg straight out to tilt the shoulders. They come out quick after that.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

goathiker said:


> My Obers always had really small kids compared to my Alpines. The thing to watch is that the forehead is a little broader. If they get slowed down by it, just run your finger in a circle behind their ears to pop moms skin over it. As soon as the head is out pull one front leg straight out to tilt the shoulders. They come out quick after that.


I am printing these instructions off... Thank you so much Goathiker


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

Thank you so much goathiker. I feel better prepared now and grain is ordered  I did not know about the soda and them making their own. Good to know. I sure appreciate the time you took to help me.


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

*Kat's book*



sarahsbounty said:


> I'm going to chime in and recommend kats book the accessible pet, herbal. Tons of great info. She recommends the non refined molasses. And isn't a fan of free choice baking soda , I believe it leeches some minerals if I remember correctly?


I'm interested, where would I find this book?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You can probably find it on Amazon. 
No problem helping out. I enjoy it.


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## sarahsbounty (Oct 6, 2013)

NOT pats book, KATS book from fir meadows!!! Look on her website fir meadows llc. She lives in Oregon.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, but Kat Coleby's book Natural Goat Care is also a good one, as long as you remember she's in Australia.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I can't remember what Kat from Fir Meadow's last name is but the woman in Australia is Pat Coleby. I happen to have both books and like Kat's book better.


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## sarahsbounty (Oct 6, 2013)

Katherine Drovdahl. The accessible pet, equine and livestock herbal.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I just started using Fir Meadows, so far so good. My dogs, chickens, goats and sheep got it


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## DancingHoovesFarm (Nov 18, 2012)

I just wanted to mention that currently Oats and Barley are not GMO crops. So you don't have to worry about finding non GMO and organic. They are probably cheeper if you just buy them from a feed store.


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

A feed store around here is my only option for grain :/ good to know barley and oat are not GMO. I do like the idea of organic, hopefully no spray was used on them. And thank you for the correction on the author, will look into both.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I think that whole grains period will be much healthier than most pre-mixed goat feeds


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

goathiker said:


> I get the mined salt at the feed store also. They're called Redmond salt rocks. Look like a pink rock.


Picked up the Redmond salt rock today. The girls loved it! They immediately were licking it. I assume that this should last a long time since I only have 3 girls.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh yeah, it should last a while for sure.


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

I wanted to update my thread. After my first post I ordered the grain so I could begin mixing my own and get them off the pelleted feed. Within a few days it was in and I began mixing. I only have the two doelings to feed so not mixing to much at a time but what I did was, using a 1 pound coffee can I mixed 4 cans of both oats and barley and 2 cans of BOSS and whole peas together and feed them one at a time on the milking stand while I brush them and prepare them for when the time comes to be milked. I also started free feeding them Kelp meal about the same time. I once again would like to thank goathiker as my girls have blossomed! Their coats are so soft and pretty, darker too! I am just thrilled with the changes I'm seeing. They have grown and also added weight. They where covered on the 10th (Nov.) the little Mini Mancha "Coco" by a reg. Nigerian buck and "Angel" a La Mancha/Nubian was covered by that bucks son, a La Mancha/Nigerian buck. I am *really* excited and looking forward to April babies and fresh, raw MILK!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is great that your girls are doing well.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

They look great!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That's wonderful. I'm happy they responded so quickly.


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

Thank you! I thought they looked ok before but their color has just "popped"!


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

I do wonder, can they eat to much kelp? I limit them to a cup a day. Tonight it was all gone.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No, they can't eat too much...It just gets expensive pretty quick when they want a lot. My boys eat bunches of it off the beach when we go. They do use a lot more when they are bred.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

What kind of peas are you feeding/can be fed?


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

I have 50lbs of it and just the two. If it wouldn't hurt toke pit in front of them I'll fill it twice a day instead of just in the morning. I suppose they need it if their eating it? Or is like candy and a sweet tooth?


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

FarmerInaDress said:


> What kind of peas are you feeding/can be fed?


Their getting dried whole peas.


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

I'll add farmerinadress I'm way to new at this to give any advise. I found a company close by that my feed store will order from. They carry certified organic non GMO grain. Goathiker helped me figure out a diet. The peas they offer are whole. Do believe there are split peas too?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Kelp has good food value and a whole lot of nutrients. It's really very good for them. They will quit eating so much when they get their fill of what they are needing. It's not like a sweet tooth, more like when you start craving artichokes for some strange reason...


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## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

Perfect! Thanks again!!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Yep, mine pigged out when I first started giving kelp free choice but tapered off. They'll dig into the Sweetlix too if they run out, but not to the same extent.


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## Marigold (Nov 18, 2013)

Hey guys! i am very new too goats and have only had my 2 girls about two months, I was feeding them agway brand sheep and goat feed because that was the only pellet form my feed store offered (1/2 cup morning and night), i also have a mineral block out and then after finding out that a lose mineral is better i started to offer them manna pro goat mineral and they are still getting used to that. They get a straight grass second cutting hay(my grandpa bought me some bales as a gift when i brought my girls home so i have been using that instead of alfalfa) My bag of feed is almost gone and i have to go buy new feed today and i was wondering if i should start mixing my own feed or stay with what i have? they seem to be doing just fine on what im feeding them but i have been wanting to switch to something more natural and i was just apprehensive because i am so new at it but after reading through this thread i thought it might be easier than i thought. I also dont know if i can find barley anywhere close, im going to ask my feed store today if they could order it. any input would be great because i am so new to this!!! thanks 
oh and i forgot to mention my girls are ND about 7 months old and im planning to breed possibly in the spring but im not sure yet because i dont want to overwhelm myself and do something wrong!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

While you are researching what you can get in your area, I would just feed what you are currently feeding. Any dietary changes must be done slowly. You also want to make sure that you can easily get the grains from a regular supplier. So buy another bag and use that time to do your research and find a good supplier.


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## Marigold (Nov 18, 2013)

okay, yeah i figured its better not to change anything drastically. I know i can get both rolled oats and whole oats at my local tractor supply and i was going to look into things like peas and barley. Since i am not feeding alfalfa hay should i supplement with alfalfa pellets? My feed is 16% protein and i figured since it has a high protein amount already i probably wouldnt need the alfalfa


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It certainly wouldn't hurt to add the alfalfa. The goats do need it. It is rich in calcium too. You could start slowly with the alfalfa pellets and just remove a small amount of feed and add that much alfalfa pellets. If you get the oats and barley, you definitely need to add the alfalfa. All these mixes that you are reading are usually used with half the feed mix and half alfalfa pellets or more.


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## Marigold (Nov 18, 2013)

I tried giving my girls some alfalfa pellets today and they wanted nothing to do with them, the chickens are showing more interest! Should i try putting some oil on them or mixing them with their feed?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

When I first started with alfalfa pellets I had to soak them, otherwise no one ate them. I don't now though. Just soaked them in water for a few hours, just enough for a feeding. If you do too much it goes bad pretty quickly.


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## Marigold (Nov 18, 2013)

Okay I started soaking them and they still seem un interested. I'll leave it out and check later to see if they ate any


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## christinajh (Jan 24, 2013)

Sometimes it takes a few times being introduced to them. Now mine treat the pellets like grain


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## Marigold (Nov 18, 2013)

I even put the pellets with their grain and they went out of their way to spit out the alfalfa! Hopefully they get used to it soon, because I really don't see them eat a lot of the hay that I give them so they probably need more forage, they do eat a lot of leaves that fell on the ground and other things they find


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It takes goats a while to get used to new things.


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