# Need advice on a horrible situation



## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Friday night JJ escaped from his pen around 11:00. This was well after "bedtime" for the goats, so when I let my dogs out, I didn't even think to check. I never have, its just a prt of our schedule- get home, put up the goats, let the dogs out, put the dogs up, feed to goats, rub them down, shut down the barn, go inside, and let the dogs back out to meet DH at the gate when he gets home. 

DH came home to Raymond and Griffin fighting over what was left of JJ.

They not only killed him, they ate him. They left his head and legs. It was the most horrible thing I've ever seen, and my heart is still bleeding. Donnie can't stop getting teared up. Rosie is lost and confused, and in raging heat.

We can't get rid of Ray. He has health issues, is older, and I couldn't trust anyone else to take him. Donnie is emphatic that we get rid of Griffin. I was at first too. But then today I realized that not only had I lost my first baby, I was now going to loose my Griffin.

We are going to build a "goat only zone" surrounding the bar. No dogs allowed at all. Period.

I've asked Allison, my goat Ob-Wan Kenobe, what she thinks. What about the rest of you? Would you keep the dogs, and just make the fencing uber secure? Or could you not get past it?

Thanks.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

First off I am very very sorry for your loss. :hug: 

Second, I would get rid of the dogs. I just wouldn't be able to get over what they did, but thats just me.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

i would not tolerate any dog that killed any goats. sorry for your losses that is a horrible thing. :sigh:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry for your loss .........that is a horrific thing to happen......If it was me .........I would get rid of the dogs....only because ...........they now have a taste for goat.....Even having a goat only area....no dogs allowed............. I feel those dogs will find a way ... jump the fence...dig under ect............. or a goat might escape....or even someone might leave a gate open.....I am sorry but.....it should either be the goats or the dogs not both...... those dogs may only get worse ...now that they have the taste for goat.....  :hug: I wouldn't risk it myself.... :sigh:


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## Shelly (Oct 5, 2007)

First let me say how sorry I'm for your lose. What a terrible thing to have happen. Now the hard part. I would get rid of the dog. Find him a home with no livestock around. Even with building an area just for goat. My personal opinion is once a dog kills livestock they will not stop. Dogs usually will start digging under or going over once they get the taste of chasing and kill something. Again I'm very sorry for your heartbreaking situates. Shelly


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## Nubiansrus (Nov 15, 2008)

I know how you feel. We had a black lab and he went after a chicken once, we didnt think to much of it. He didnt kill it. The chicken was fine. So we thought well just keep him away from them. About 2 months later we had another much worse incident. The same dog dug out of his pen and masacred all of our chickens, and killed a baby goat as well. He had to jump a few pens to do this... he didnt eat anything... just slaughtered them. The baby goat was my daughters she was bottle feeding. We were heart broke for so many reasons, and it went on. We thought of getting rid of the lab, but were afraid he would attack another small animal, or move up. We madethe choice to ethunize our loved pet... he had been around other dogs, our kids, and been fine... but we couldnt take the chance... or sell him and have someone have to go through what we did... RIP Cash our black lab... RIP Carli the baby goat, and all our chickens...RIP JJ  this situation still upsets me greatly.


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## Cinder (Mar 3, 2008)

Oh, I am so terribly sorry for this awful loss. I'd be an absolute mess, I can't imagine how hard this is on you.

I am never in favor of getting rid of an animal too quickly. Often there are things that can be done to keep all animals safely and not have to give up any. However, in your situation I think I'd recommend finding your dog a new home. Even if you reinforce your fencing you are going to daily live with the stress of wondering if your dog can find a way to get to the goats. You'll be constantly checking and rechecking gates to make sure the goats haven't gotten out accidently. I don't think living with that stress is going to be good for you physically/mentally and the only way to not have that stress is to not have the dog.

It has to be your decision though as you also have to live with whatever decision you make. 

Best wishes in your decision making.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I am so so sorry for your loss. 

And I am sorry to say this but ... 

those dogs either need to be euthanased or given to someone who fully accepts that they have killed another animal. 

Once a killer, always a killer. Your dogs have discovered their natural instincts ... not their fault that we have domesticated them and supressed it ... but they have discovered it and they enjoy it and they will do it again, and again.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Here is his link on BYC. I was brutally honest, I think.

http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=105843


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Here is his link on BYC. I was brutally honest, I think.
> 
> http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/v ... ?id=105843


It is straight forward and heart felt....with your wishes and needs ....


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

"Once a killer always a killer" 


Absolutely FALSE 


I have a dog who killed a duck my chicken, he has killed a ground hog as well. But he doesnt kill our other chickens and I trust him around my goats (though he loves to chase and bark at them).


After my dog killed my pet chicken I was so upset. But I realized that he was just bored and needed more time to play and get his energy out. With some extra food in his diet and more play time he stopped chasing chickens and he hasnt hurt a thing since except for the ground hog that was terrizing my Aunts Chickens (live next door). He is now 7 years old. HE was a puppy when he killed the duck and chicken.


If I had dogs around that were strays or were my own and i was fearful for my goats I would add hotwire to my goats pen to keep the preditors out. You need a high voltage but i know that people use this method with great success.


He is still a puppy ...... I wouldnt give up on him. But thats just me 



So sorry for the loss of your goat


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

stacey .......... if it was boredom,,, he would of just played ruff .....accidentally killing the poor goat and leave it lay ...and the dogs fun is over... that would be the scene.....but he ate it........I think she mentioned he was a older dog..... It is so horrible and not normal at all.....


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## rebelshope (Sep 21, 2008)

I to am so sorry for your loss. What a horrible shock.

I agree with Stacy. 

You can retrain your dogs to leave the goats alone. In my opinion in is unfair to give up the dogs just because they acted like dogs. Yes, dogs kill and eat things. I work with all my dogs to be able to be with livestock, and yet I would never trust them alone with the smaller animals. 

1st I would check all the gates and fencing to figure out where the dogs got out, or how the goat got out. Fix that problem.

2nd, if your not sure how to proceed with training, contact a positive trainer in your area. Please don't use a shock collar- only extremely experienced trainers should use these- and then most won't. 

People would be amazed at what we can do with our animals with just a little training.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

No Ray is the older dog. In her rehoming thread on BYC she states he is young and not full grown yet. Plus he has the puppy look still.



Dogs do strange things from time to time, eating what they killed isnt obnormal and doesnt make an animal vicious. I mean cats do it all the time. Obviously their threat isnt as dangerous so we dont worry about them hurting our goats.



Just think about a LGD -- they are there to kill and kill daily if needed --- it is all in the training. They have to kill but that doesnt make them always out to kill something. so it doesnt mean that once they taste blood they have to kill something. 

Some dogs do it out of fun, some do it out of bordom and some out of duty. vicious dogs do it more then for fun but for their life, it is like their life depends on it. 

My oppion only. If I had gotten rid of Lucky after he killed my brothers duck or after he killed my chicken or after he supposibly killed our rabbit then I wouldnt have my companion I have today. Killing once doesnt make them a killer always, thats my point.

But it depends on if you can handle having that animal around.



Also there is a point to be made that you dont know for SURE that they killed your goat. You said you didnt even know the goat got loose --- what if another dog or other preditor got to it first and the dogs were just eating what remained (yah gross I know) ??? It wouldnt be the first time that somethign like that happened.


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## rebelshope (Sep 21, 2008)

StaceyRoop said:


> Also there is a point to be made that you dont know for SURE that they killed your goat. You said you didnt even know the goat got loose --- what if another dog or other preditor got to it first and the dogs were just eating what remained (yah gross I know) ??? It wouldnt be the first time that somethign like that happened.


I wondered about this too. I mean how big is your goat and how long were the dogs out. Even a small goat is going to take some time for two dogs to kill and eat.


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## Sybil (Dec 21, 2007)

So sorry about your loss. It is especially sad being your own dog. With goats you need a decent fence to keep the dogs out. I have seen too many goats in my life time killed by dogs.....thank goodness none were mine. I don't think I could ever trust the dog again even if he were confined. We had neighbor dogs chasing the horses and cows next to me and the neighbors were warned that they would be dead dogs is caught again. It may start out as fun but gets carried away. Neighbors were sad that they couldn't let their dogs run in the country and gave them away (they even had 2 pet goats attacked by someone elses dogs!!)! I don't let my own dogs run loose let alone unattended with the goats. A good fence is a great start to keeping goats safe and dogs where they belong. 
Sue


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Y'all have all given me great advice. I'll answer a few things first.

JJ would have two weeks old today. Very Small, only 7 pounds or so.

We know raymond/griffin killed JJ. If there were any other dogs on the property, the barking and fighting would have been insane. Plus, his body was still warm when Donnie found them.

Plus they ATE him. Ate him. Think about that. I know we've all had dogs kill a goat, but how many were eaten? That's not playing to me, that's hunting. 

Secondly, my dogs have had daily training. All my dogs recognize me and my husband as the alphas. Griffin has been with the goats since he was three months old. Raymond had no aggression towards them before we got griffin. Griffin just never could understand they were not to be chased after. 

Lastly, I was a vet assisstant for two years, including working with a vet that did dog training. He showed me the proper way to use the shock collar, and on top of that I've done lots and lots of reading and research. Plus, Cesar Milan uses them in hard to break cases. I only started using it when Griffin started chasing the goats. He would not respond to verbal commands, and if I chas after him, he think we are playing. A Shock was the quickest way to stop him in his tracks.

I agree with most of what everyone has said. I just dont think donnie and I could trust Griffin ever again. He is a big, strong, GSD, and is incredibly stubborn. I just can't trust him.


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## rebelshope (Sep 21, 2008)

I preferred modern dog training methods based on recent research, but that is me. Some prefer the older methods Cesar subscribes to- it just all comes down to how you want to relate to your dogs and what you are comfortable with and what you have success with.

I hope you can find a solution that is the best for everyone involved. If you can not trust your dog maybe it is best that you rehome him.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

By the once a killer always a killer comment, I meant to say that if they have killed once, you cannot trust them not to do it again. They might not go out and do it on a regular basis ... they might only do it once a year or every couple of years ... but they are intelligent and that memory is there. 

I stopped with LGDs because it was too easy for them to start 'feeding themselves' out in the paddock. Young kids with birthing fluid, blood and fresh umbilical cords are tempting, even to the oldest most well trained dog ... as are goats injured from other predators.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

My hubby has been hogging the computer today so I am just now able to get on.

My personal opinion is one of keeping the dogs, and this is what I have voiced to Kate. Here are my reasons:

1.) Dogs were at the home first! They are a part of the family. If a person wants to have the goats also, then the person must make the fencing secure for the animals inside and outside of the fencing. If this can not be accomplished immediately, then find a home for the goaties till this can be accomplished.

2.) Correct breed for the family is a must. A GSD - is not a livestock protection dog. This is a dog that was bred for sniffing out and attacking. These dogs are following basic instinct that was bred into them - you can not fault the dog for that.

3.) A dog that has killed or attacked does not mean that it will do it again. I have 3 outside that I can attest to this! Just because they all have received a taste of blood - they have NEVER done it again. Yes, it was hard to trust them again - but NEVER have they shown any signs of it again and they are in the pens with me when I am out there. (although mine did not eat the doeling - they tore her ear and it was bleeding - she was just full of slober and a ruptured heart - I think)

4.) To really think of these things rationally and what is going to be best for you - you have to give yourself a little time to think logically. You never ever think logically when you are upset or distressed. This is when abrupt decisions can be made that you later regret.

We all hate it when something happens that we wish never did and that we could have stopped it - but accidents happen - instincts happen.

I worked as a Vet Nurse for 8 years in 2 different states and in a different country. I have seen alot and know that there can be a happy peace to keep the animals - goats and dogs.


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

As a prior breeder and shower of GSDs, I just have a couple comments.



> 2.) Correct breed for the family is a must. A GSD - is not a livestock protection dog. This is a dog that was bred for sniffing out and attacking. These dogs are following basic instinct that was bred into them - you can not fault the dog for that.


This is actually a _herding_ breed. There are lines now that have been bred more for the police dog and shutzhund work, but in the beginning they are herding dogs. Which of course doesn't mean they should automatically be good for livestock. Herding dogs tend to have high prey drives, its the art of training them to use that drive to herd instead of kill that is the key.

Anyways, I can really only give an example of this kind of thing. I had one white GSD who we had issues with this kind of thing. She killed several animals, and ate most of them, including a boer goat. However, the dog WAS successfully retrained and ultimately could be trusted with any animal she was specifically told was "off limits." It was a lot of work, and I don't know every detail of your situation, so in the end this is a decision you have to make on your own.

I'm terribly sorry for your loss and I hope it all works out somehow. :hug:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Epona,

You are correct way back when that is what they were for - however, this is not the case now. In all the years that I worked around animals - I never saw a GSD that I would ever trust around livestock. Come to think of it, all but about 5 that I ever ever worked with I had to muzzle as they were unpredictable and didn't ever give any sign of aggression till it was to late - sort of like a chow chow. I personally would work with a pit anyday of the week then a GSD without a muzzle. But that is from my experience.

I sure hope that inside the tragedy will be able to find the answers that will work for you and you alone. You know that I am here for you Kate - what ever you choose :hug:


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Allison is right, Raymond was here first. That is why he is staying. For the first 24hrs afterward I was so angry and upset with him I wanted to shoot him, but I didn't make any decisions then. Now that I have calmed down, talked with folks, and thought about it, he will stay. This is his home. He's been with me for four years.

Griffin, however, was not here before the goats. I did get him to act as a herding/farm dog, but I fear his insticts for that have been overhwlemed by his nose. His line was bred for tracking and rescue. 

Unfortunatly there isn't really anywhere I can temporaraly rehome the goats. All my family lives in the city, and we dont have the cash for boarding. All extra funds are going towards new fencing.

But I think a good solution is in the works. My BIL has been wanting a dog. He lives on land, but has no interest in livestock. He may take Griffin. That way I can still visit him, and he will have space.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I am so sorry that happened!  :hug: We've had similar things happen but they were not our dogs.



> But I think a good solution is in the works. My BIL has been wanting a dog. He lives on land, but has no interest in livestock. He may take Griffin. That way I can still visit him, and he will have space.


That would be very nice if that were to work out. He looks like such a cute dog!!


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

i agree that works having your friend take the dog

i do not trust any animals around my goats, 

but thats just my opinion. but i say if the dog eats what it kills, its not bored and looking to entertain itself, it was out to kill


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Plus they ATE him. Ate him. Think about that. I know we've all had dogs kill a goat, but how many were eaten? That's not playing to me, that's hunting.


 I know what you mean..If it was play or boredom .....the dog would play ... accidentally kill...get bored..... because the goat isn't moving anymore...move on ...this is normal...what I see that is abnormal is the eating part...very unusual ....especially if the dog isn't starving...does not make since ..and is something that is very hard to correct ....if it can be at all....which is sadly doubtful.... 



> Lastly, I was a vet assisstant for two years, including working with a vet that did dog training. He showed me the proper way to use the shock collar, and on top of that I've done lots and lots of reading and research. Plus, Cesar Milan uses them in hard to break cases. I only started using it when Griffin started chasing the goats.


 seems as if the young dog had plenty of training.....to not play or touch the goats .....like you said he was stubborn and did something far worse than play in alot of people's book....I had a LGD from pup to adult....that wouldn't learn from verbal or the shocker training...I continued to try for over a year ....he killed several chickens...and kept inflicting injuries to the goats..adult or kids...If they ran ....he would chase...It was fun to him.......You see mine played and would not stop.....but never ate them.....some do not ever learn ...I of course found him a new home.......


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

> You are correct way back when that is what they were for - however, this is not the case now. In all the years that I worked around animals - I never saw a GSD that I would ever trust around livestock. Come to think of it, all but about 5 that I ever ever worked with I had to muzzle as they were unpredictable and didn't ever give any sign of aggression till it was to late - sort of like a chow chow. I personally would work with a pit anyday of the week then a GSD without a muzzle. But that is from my experience.


kelebek, its such a shame you feel that way about this breed. It's so frustrating when irresponsible owners and backyard breeders ruin a breed. (Not implying anything to you or your beautiful boy bbredmom!) I have had the great luck to work with many different "lines" of GSDs, including a few that actually did the work they were developed for and were amazing to see. On the whole, I consider them one of the best family breeds out there, but yes I HAVE met some who were frankly just plain dangerous. It's all about the individual dog, like all breeds. While I'm not afraid or leery of any breed, there are quite a few I won't trust further than I can throw! Well, truth be told, I'd never trust any dog I hadn't specifically worked with to act a specific way in specifics situations. And even then, there are always risks.

Anyways, there I go blabbering on again, bad habit of mine. I hope your boy finds a great home with your BIL, especially so you'd be able to see him again. Sometimes certain dogs just don't work out in certain situations, and its certainly not your fault, so please try not to blame yourself, as I know I'd be doing right now.

:hug:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I LOVE German Shepherds! what a beautiful breed. I love mixes more though. Both our dogs are a GSD mix one with lab and my beautiful boy with a hound. My mom has a love for German Shepherds. I know we will always try to have one or a mix of one at our house. I have never met a mean one :shrug:


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

Well, one thing we can agree on, no matter WHAT breed it is, there will be some people who have had bad experiences, and some who have had great, and some who have had both! :doh:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

bbredmom...I am so sorry you had to deal with this awful tragedy :hug: 
I will try and give some advice on the situation though. You have suffered a terrible loss caused by a beloved pet...grieve over your little guy and then deal with the solution. I would suggest though the biggest thing in your favor as well as your goats, would be better fenceing as well as "stiff" penalties for the dogs. Of course you can't "punish" them now, as the act has been forgotten by them.

It's not always easy especially if you feel you can't trust your dogs....I have 3 "small" dogs...the old dog pretty much stays out of the goats way, the beagle mix likes to harass them through the fence but once the goats are out he stays away from them, the pointer mix just could care less about them....I trust my dogs but I never give opportunity to the beagle to cause me grief...he chases bunnies and has caught them...baby goats are alot like those bunnies and he really doesn't see the difference...they run and he chases, so the solution was to never have babies out with the moms while he was out...or I just tied him while they ran and played.
If you feel you have to re-home your GSD pup so be it, but he can be trained with perseverance as well as keeping your fencing secure for your goats....and you may have realized this already, but he did have a sidekick and he may not have even touched your kid IF your older dog wasn't with him. He's still a puppy and can be taught that your goats are not food but friends....there are many ways of doing this successfully...some more aggressive than others and I hope that you can find the solution, even if your BIL takes him, he'll still need to have training. Again.,I am so sorry you lost JJ :hug:


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Well, we have new facts about what happened. Friday night we were in such shock, we really just put the dogs in their crates. We checked them superficially Saturday morning for wounds, but I was so hazy and griefstricken, I did a poor job. The rest of the weekend, they were in their crates except to go potty 5-6 times a day. 

I know that seems cruel, but I wasn't thinking straight. I didn't want to lok at them. I'm sorry.

Last night, I felt ready to make up with the dogs. I let them out, and they snuggled ont he couch with me. I noticed raymond has a scrape under his eye. It looked a little infected, so I called hubby and got the Peroxide and started cleaning it. 

It wasn't a scrape. It was a puncture all the way through his lip. I started freaking out and checked raymond head to toe. He has multiple bites and lacerations that I didn't notice until last night. He is part sharpei, so his wounds were covered by wrinkles and fur until they started to get infected.

I feel so awful He is at the vet right now getting cleaned up. She says he will be fine, none of them but the lip wound are really deep. I just feel really really bad.

Sophie, our BC, also has some lacerations, but we caught those Friday night and they are fine.

Griffin? One scratch. Thats it.

To me, the fact that the other two dogs are so beat up changes how I think it went down. Could Raymond have killed JJ? Absolutely. But I'm beginning to doubt whether it did it on purpose. Maybe he was playing with him, and broke his neck accidently. When Lil'Bit was killed, Donnie came home to Raymond laying on the body. He wouldn't let Griffin near it, but he wasn't chewing on it himself. But that was two months ago. Griffin was smaller and weaker then. Bow, he out sizes and out muscles all my dogs.

The wounds on Raymond's back are also consistent with those we found on Jack and Lil'Bit.

I know we all agree that I need to step back before I make a decision. But it look more and more like Grififn is going to a new home. One that is more experienced with strong willed GSD.

Thanks everyone.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

So do you think that Griffin inflicted the injuries to the others because he was "protecting" a kill?
I hope they heal without further issues coming on :hug:


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Yeah, thats what I'm starting to think. What do y'all think?


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I am glad that you are able to look at the situation and make a decision on what is best for you and your family. :hug:


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## FunnyRiverFarm (Sep 13, 2008)

bbredmom--I think you are making the right decision about Griffin...it sounds like he has not only shown aggression toward your goats, but toward your other dogs as well. Yes, dogs will be dogs, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Sure, it's true that he may never do something like this again...but I think that's unlikely...and is it really worth the risk? Plus it sounds like he is creating unwanted behavior in your other dogs...

Training is important, but sometimes no amount of training can break certain behaviors...dogs do know when you're not looking. I just don't think he could be trusted.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Has Griffin showed "food aggression" before...with anyone? Dog, cats...or even you? That is a behavior that can be difficult for any dog to overcome...maybe going to a new home would be berst for him.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

He has never showed food aggression, or aggression towards my other dogs. He actually loves the cats and will bathe them if he can catch them.

Allison, you are so sweet. I know you suggessted keeping him, but ene though we probably wont, you aren't judging me. Thanks. :hug: back at ya.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

No way would I ever judge what others do. That is their choice and they have to make a decision that is best for them. I can just give "my opinion" and choose what is best for me and my family. I can only give what I know and each has to take it for what it is worth.

You are in my thoughts and my husband's thoughts, as since we were "there" via phone since the minute he was born - we had an "attachment" to all the animals also :hug: :hug:


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

This is a difficult situation and I hope it works out as best as possible. I think its quite possible Griffen inflicted the wounds on the other dogs; sometimes in these situations dogs just aren't themselves and can act oddly. I wish I knew what I would do in the same situation, but on the information given, I know it would be difficult to retrain a dog that's possibly done that much damage. I guess it just all depends on numerous variables in the situation. 
Anyways, whatever you decide to do, we're here for you. :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am really sorry you have to go through this....we all will stand behind you 100% on any decision you may make.. :hug: . ray: :grouphug:


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## rebelshope (Sep 21, 2008)

Sounds like you have found a good home where he will be very happy. I hope your other two dogs heal well also.
The worst thing would be a keep a dog that you don't feel comfortable with, that wouldn't be good for you or the dog; but it sounds like you have the makings of a happy ending for everyone with someone who wants Griffin.


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## MissMM (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm so sorry for your loss and the decision you have to make..... there is no 'right or wrong' when it comes to something like this - you can only trust your gut instinct, then do what's best for all 4 legged family members involved.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Well, things have changed around here. 

My BIL declined after all. He's decided to try and go back to school, and a dorm would not be the best place for a GSD.

Apparently after spending three days off work with the dogs, my husband has found it within himself to forgive them. I did Sunday, he did around Tuesday.

We've spoken to each other, I've meditated, he's prayed, and we've spoken to dog trainers and GSD breeders. 

B/C he is so young, there is still a chance we can teach him to leave the gots alone, with a mixture of positive discipline and negative reinforcement. We are also building a new area, a Goat Safe Zone, with no dogs allowed. 

He is now on Doggie Bootcamp. If he is outside, he is tethered to my leg. He must wait for doors, and must stay until I say. Going anywhere near the goat pens is a big no-no. He's starting to catch on. Last night we started to tach him to wait at the the bottom of the steps for the front door. He didn't like it at first, kept barreling past me. But I just kept leading him down, telling him sit, stay, and loving on him. Eventually, it was a lightbulb moment for Griffin.

Plus, he must learn that he is bottom of the pack. He gets fed last, petted last, allowed on the couch last. Period. We still love him, but he must know where he is in the heirarchy.

We may still have to find him a home. But it was as much my fault as his. I should have checked the fencing better, I knew we had a baby, I just assumed everything was secure. 

Thank you to everyone for their support. I know my decision may be different from what you've done, and I hope I dont come to regret it. But he is our puppy. Our "first" baby together, so to speak. 

Thanks again. You guys are awesome.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I hope it works out for you and Griffin...as mentioned he is still a puppy, and needs guidance and training....animals know when they are loved, they also can pick up on other emotions as well, better than some people can, he knows you forgive him as well as love him, he also knows that he needs to gain your trust again too :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

good luck to you.... ray:


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

It sounds like you are on the road to success and I wish you all the best. It's a grand person who takes on the responsibility and doesn't give up. :hug:


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## rebelshope (Sep 21, 2008)

The two commands I that I think every dog should know are "wait" and "leave it". Sounds like you are working on the "wait". Good Job. I use it all the time. I get out of the car, the dog know to wait. I walk out the door, my dogs wait. I go down the stairs, they wait behind me til I am at the bottom. SO much better than having dogs run past and out the door or tripping me on the stairs. Good luck to you.


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## Hodgson's Herd (May 25, 2008)

I was so sorry to read you terrible story!! It is really a shame to loose you goat that way. The only thing is that if it was your own dogs, they were just following their instincts  I would not get rid of them, I would just make sure that they can not get out of their own pen or yard. My own dogs have killed cats when the cats went in the dog yard, I was not happy but I felt I could not blame them for it. I hope that you can get beyond this horrible event, and hopefully find another goat. Carolyn


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## Laurel_Haven (Oct 20, 2007)

I wish you much success with retraining this pup. I do hope this never happens again and it sounds to me that you are working hard to prevent it from reoccurring. I am not sure I would be so forgiving but everyone deserves a second chance! Best of luck with the training process. :thumbup:


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## BeeLady (Dec 12, 2008)

How is the re-training going?

I am sorry for the loss of JJ and working hard to prevent a similar situation here. I have a 2-yr-old Rotti/GSD mix. I also have two other dogs, chickens and now the two goats and 2 cats. The dog, Greta, has chased all these animals (except the goats) "playing." She nips at the little dog and has drawn blood once on my older lab mix, just this past week while I was in the goat pen. I believe it was a food fight and the lab may have bitten Greta first as she usually only fights when she has been "hurt." (She plays and nips, the other dog bites back in anger, Greta is "hurt" and then goes viscous although she has only drawn blood once, and that was minor.)

I think between her now being bigger than the dogs, goats, chickens and cats and taking over as Alpha and her going into adulthood, she will become more animal aggressive and domineering. 

I am beginning to really reinforce who is boss as well as owners of ALL the animals (me) and not Greta. I see a livestock loss coming without some strong intervention. I don't know if I'll ever be able to completely trust her, just as its hard to completely trust any animal or even some people, but I am doing my best. Facing your situation would be so difficult -- I empathize.

First of all, I am not giving her a chance anymore with any other animals. Her freedom and opportunities are being limited. I am keeping her crated some and when I have my goats out she is on a leash attached to my belt loops. I want her to be around the goats and chickens, aware of their behavior and not startled or excited by their movements. I am correcting her anytime she shows undue interest or gives an intense stare. As she has a lot of herding breed in her some of this is normal. I am trying to reinforce though that I am the one who determines who is herded, chased, barked at, etc. Not her.

So far she seems to be responding. Today I had my goats tethered and bleating. Greta, the goats and I had been together for a couple of hours this morning (with Greta attached to me by leash), I let Greta stay on the porch within sight and earshot of the tethered goats while I went in the house. I could see the goats and the dog and was prepared to intervene if Greta left to go check on the goats. She remained on the porch fairly disinterested.

She remained disinterested when I went to put the goats back in their shed. We have been working this way (Greta tethered to me) for over a week now and I think it is working. She weighs 80 pounds so its not always much fun to have her tied to me but it is ensuring that I teach her what I want her to know.

I think I was remiss in letting her tease and chase at the other animals until now. Her training should have started much earlier (other than just her obedience basics). She is a great dog and I'm very fond of her. I don't ever want to be faced with the situation that you have had to endure. Reading your post has just made me more determined to see that Greta is properly trained and either becomes trustworthy around the stock or is not given the opportunity to act against the animals even if that means a kennel or dog run built in the yard.


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