# I'm very concerned. Goat is not acting as usual.



## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

I already lost one goat recently, so I'm panicking.

I am flat dead broke right now and unable to bring him to the vet and freaking out.


He is a 5mos and 19days old, wethered Nigerian Dwarf and has not been as energetic as usual.. He's acting rather lazy and tired, laying around alot more than usual. Normally he is ecstatic about getting grain, but since yesterday he has little interest in grain, although he has eaten a little bit of it.

He has urinated, last time I saw it was around 7:30 last night
He does not appear to have bloat.. Rumen is not tight nor hard, nor bulging out
Eye lids are pink
He is defecating
He is chewing his cud
He is drinking water
He is eating browse
He is chewing hay

He is not bleating and is not vocal.. Normally he is socially vocal.. He's been very quiet yesterday and today.

He is not grinding his teeth, nor is he showing me any signs of pain.


But he appears to be tired and lazy and climbs into the hay bin and lays inside it, or just lays around.. I watched him just standing and staring, not moving sometimes.

Also, perhaps around 2 or 3 times this morning he looked like he was yawning 

He just seems uninterested in his usual activities. Could it be the heat and humidity?


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## CrazyAcre (Jan 7, 2010)

Does he have a high temperature?


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Take his temp. Has it been unusually hot and humid in your area now? An increase? If so, I'm leaning towards that at this point since he is not showing many other symptoms of illness. Keep an eye on his temp though.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

I want to take his temp, but I don't have a thermometer 

Actually, I do, but it's a digital and I know from using it on my child orally that I have to wait 3minutes for the beep..

Can I use this on my goat rectally and if so, how long should I have it in there?

Yes, it has been hot and humid past several days


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Yeah, I had a slow thermometer like that. Just be sure he stands still. If you have some vaseline to put on the tip it helps when inserting it. Just have it in there till it beeps, same as human. Be sure and right "goat thermometer" on it when you're finished!


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## Thanatos (Mar 16, 2009)

if he is still drinking and eating and chewing cud you are prolly ok. If you are concerned that the goat might be a bit bloaty just go give him a tums or two(worked for mine). Also try giving him a treat to see if you can get him excited.
Oh andwas the one you goat you lost his buddy?


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

I tried the digital.. after just several seconds it climbed to 107.6 then refused to continue reading as the numbers just turned to the letter H.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

Should I give him a cool bath or will this shock him and/or create too much stress?


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

Well, I wet him down with a soaked wash cloth. While he was against my body I could feel how hot he is.. I wiped him down with the soaked wash cloth.. Hope this helps.


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## wookiee (Oct 26, 2009)

Do you have any banamine? You can give him just a teeny tiny bit on the tip of your finger to help bring the fever down. Has he been coughing or any snotty nose?

I am in your area and have dealt with very high fevers recently. There is a cough going around. See my post on pseudomonas in this forum.


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

Goats can have aspirin too. It is an antipyretic in people. I don't know the dose but you could do a search. I know it is a lot though.
Does he have an infection?
Any abcessess or something that would be causing this fever?
I, myself, would cool him down with a wet cool cloth around his neck...to get the blood cooler going to his brain and also a cloth on his head and possibly belly and chest if you can get away with that.

107 is really high. I wonder if your thermometer is working? Especially in light that he is chewing his cud, eating etc. Maybe you could borrow a rectal thermometer from a friend? Or they are only like a buck at the dollar store.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Wow...that temp is extremely high...do as you have been with the cold wet towels, If you don't have banamine, a regular aspirin crushed and dissolved in a little water will work, also is it extremely warm where you are? If you can, check the temp on his buddy too, it will give you an idea of wether or not the thermometer is working properly. With a temp that high, I personally would start him on Pen G, the antibiotic dose I've used on a 6 week old doeling that weighed 13 pounds was at 1cc per 20lbs, she too was "not right" with a high temp and within 2 hours of getting the PenG her temp was coming down.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

wookiee said:


> Do you have any banamine? You can give him just a teeny tiny bit on the tip of your finger to help bring the fever down. Has he been coughing or any snotty nose?
> 
> I am in your area and have dealt with very high fevers recently. There is a cough going around. See my post on pseudomonas in this forum.


I don't have any, no. He does not have a snotty nose, no, but yesterday I noticed he coughed twice. Today I have not heard any coughing.

I just checked his temp again just now and it is 106. I waited for the beep.

I wanted to make sure I cooled him down, so I brought him into the bath tub and hosed him down with the shower head about an hour ago.. When I put him back outside, he shook like a dog, went to walk away and stumbled like a drunk.

He is picking at leaves from branches right now. I offered Manna Pro Goat Treat which he normally is excited to have, yet he had no interest, just walked away.. but he could be mad at me too for soaking him and that was right after the soaking, but just now he nibbled on some.

I have electrolytes and some apple cider vinegar in the water.

Although his lids are pink, just in case I gave him a dose of safeguard.. strange, he seemed to like it.

He's now dried off from his bath.. When should I wet him down again.

Oh, and I just gave him two aspirin.. he tried to take them on his own to chew, but couldn't get them down, so I crushed them up and put in an oral syringe with some water.. He took it willingly


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

Do you have Pennicillin? It is like 10 bucks at the feed store. 
May have to wait til tomorrow if it's closed on Sunday.

When something has a fever you don't want them to get so "cold" from your treatment that they shiver.
Shiver is counter productive to lowering temperatures. So it's a balance of cooling. Odd I know seems if a little cold wet is good a lot is better but that isn't necessarily so.

Did you check the thermometer on a buddy goat to see if it is correct. 107 is really high esp. if he's chewing cud and eating etc...seems he'd be a lot more sick with that temp.


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## wookiee (Oct 26, 2009)

My girl had a 107 fever and was otherwise normal, chewing cud and normal poops. She stood hunched which was my only clue so I took her temp. Banamine took her temp right down and she was later cultured and shown to have pseudomonas.

Not fun and hoping this is not the case with your guy.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Might be listeriosis: http://www.goatworld.com/articles/liste ... gwmf.shtml

I'd give Pen G ASAP as well as B-complex or Thiamine, which ever you have available.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

Unfortunately I have no medications or antibiotics on hand and at this very moment I am flat broke and probably won't have any $$ for a few days 

I just took his temp again and it's 105.8. I haven't taken the other goat's temp yet, but am going back out to do it now.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm sorry, I too have been in that situation, all you can do at this point is to continue the aspirin every 6-8 hours and try to help keep his temp down...if you have any "people" vitamins like B-Complex, you can crush 3-4 tabs and dissolve as you did the aspirin and give it to him. I hope he pulls through with what you are doing to help, and yes...please be sure he is drinking enough.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

I put him in the kiddie pool and soaked him. When I put him back on the ground, while walking away he stumbled like a drunk and fell down... OH NO.. is that normal? He did get up, stumble a little more, but then was walking normal and ate a piece of hay and a couple leaves. He then urinated and pooped. Urination looked normal, poops looked normal.

Hmm.. people vitamins.. I thought about that,.. would a multi vitamin be ok? I have some of those. I also have goat nutri drench.. Should I give him a squirt in his mouth?

Oh, and the other goat's temp is 102.. couldn't wait for the beep as he kept pulling away, but fairly close to almost complete I think


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

Label on multivitamins I have on hand..

A 5000 iu
c 60mg
d 400iu
e 30iu
thiamine mononitrate b1 1.mg
riboflavin b2 1.7mg
niacin 20mg
vitamin b6 (pyridoxine hci) 2mg
folic acid 400 mcg
vitamin b12 6mcg
pantothenic acid (d calcium panothenate 10mg)
iron 18mg


Would these be ok? If so, how many should I grind up and give him? Or should I give him a pump squirt of Nutri-Drench?


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

I'd for sure give the nutridrench.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

MiGoat said:


> I'd for sure give the nutridrench.


I didn't wait for an answer.. I crushed 3 tablets in a little over 2tbsp of water in oral syringe and gather he got about 2 and half to 2 and 3/4 tablets worth.. He put up a fight until he finally tasted it and allowed me to squirt it into his mouth..

He seems to picked up a little bit.. he don't feel "hot" to the touch like he did earlier and he's picking at tree branches.

I don't want to over stress him or overdose him on vitamins.. Is it still good idea to nutridrench him.. Should I do it now or wait a little bit?


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

That mulitvitamin really didn't have an overdose amount of any of the vitamins...multi's rarely (if ever) do. 
Speaking for myself...I would give the nutridrench. 
He may like the taste of the nutridrench. Could help hydrate him too.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

He's putting up a fight and not allowing me to get the drench in his mouth. I found some B12 tablets. They're 50 mcg. I tried to shove 2 broken ones of them into his mouth, he chewed and a couple pieces fell out.. maybe he got 1 and a half.

Been awhille.. I'm gonna take his temp again


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

Now his temp is back up to 106.8 I can't take this ---t anymore.. If I lose him it's gonna break me and probably go crazy.

I wet him again and he fell down like a drunk and now he's shaking a little.. I couldn't get the drench in him, so squirt it on some grain and he ate it,, about half handful with one and half pumps.. he ate about half of it


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

The stumbling is suggestive that either the high temp is causing brain damage or he's got listeria or polio....the B vitamins will help if it's polio, but for listeria he will need high and frequent doses of Penicillan, give him another 3 crushed multi vits plus 2 b12 syringed into him,. he will pee out what he doesn't need, keep him eating too...goats will make their own thiamine as long as they eat and there is no upset going on in the rumen.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

liz said:


> The stumbling is suggestive that either the high temp is causing brain damage or he's got listeria or polio....the B vitamins will help if it's polio, but for listeria he will need high and frequent doses of Penicillan, give him another 3 crushed multi vits plus 2 b12 syringed into him,. he will pee out what he doesn't need, keep him eating too...goats will make their own thiamine as long as they eat and there is no upset going on in the rumen.


OMG!! Brain damage :tears: He only stumbles when first walking away after being wet down.. is the same still true? I hope not.. I'm starting to really freak out and am hating myself for not having antibiotics, etc on hand.. kept putting it off due to not having available funds on my credit card, etc and now I feel terrible. If he dies or is permanently damaged I'll not own a goat ever again.. This is too heart breaking


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Don;t panic yet... he's still being normal right? Not unsteady on his feet or going in circles right? Eating, drinking, pooping and peeing?
I know the position you are in, don't fault yourself, these things happen and as far as any brain damage that may or may not have occurred, most often it does fix itself, it took 2 months before my doeling Penny could go without a night light due to the damage she suffered the end of December, she's perfectly healthy now. At this point, just be with him, make sure he's comfortable and give him that extra TLC


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

I gave him 2 aspirin, 3 multi vitamins and 3 b12 and checked temp about 40mins later.. it's still 106.8 

Every evening when I put the goats in the barn he likes to jump up on the window sill so it was good to see him still do this.

I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight and am afraid :tears:


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## Polarhug (Jul 1, 2010)

Lots of tlc and love, you are doing the best you can with what you have. You are a good goat owner just hang in there. :hug:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I know, it's very hard when you are trying all you can, I didn't sleep at all during the 5 days that Penny was sick, and not much sleep at all during the months that she was recovering.
Is there any goat breeders close to you that you would be able to contact and see if they'd be willing to give you a few doses of PenG?
Go through the breeder listings by state with the registries if you have to, most have their phone numbers listed too and I would bet that if you found someone and explained the situation they would be willing to help...I would if I were closer :hug:


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

liz said:


> Don;t panic yet... he's still being normal right? Not unsteady on his feet or going in circles right? Eating, drinking, pooping and peeing?
> I know the position you are in, don't fault yourself, these things happen and as far as any brain damage that may or may not have occurred, most often it does fix itself, it took 2 months before my doeling Penny could go without a night light due to the damage she suffered the end of December, she's perfectly healthy now. At this point, just be with him, make sure he's comfortable and give him that extra TLC


He is eating, although not as much as usual, pooping and urinating, yes and no he is not going in circles, but several times he would just stand there staring as if daydreaming. As for drinking, I have not seen him drinking anything since this morning some time, but my wife tells me she saw him drinking twice with the last time being early afternoon. His walking seems normal other than when I soaked him and then let him walk away, but he would just get up after that and shake like a wet dog and then walk normal again


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Sometimes the staring is called stargazing, is he extending his nose upward when he stares? If not then I'm sure he's just confused as to what's going on.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

liz said:


> Sometimes the staring is called stargazing, is he extending his nose upward when he stares? If not then I'm sure he's just confused as to what's going on.


He looks straight ahead, not looking up.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I always check posts before I leave for work at 4:45....I will be looking for an update on how your little guy is doing. Try and get some rest, I know it's hard to do when you're worried.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

I checked his temp about half an hour ago and it's 107.3 :sigh: 

He was excited to getting some grain today and showed some signs of his normal self.

I'm supposed to be getting paid this week and I wish it would hurry up and get here so I can get some PenG, Thiamine, B12, Banamine and anything else I may need before it's too late, which it may already be, even take him to the vet even though it's probably gonna cost a ton and I'll be forced to choose my goat over paying my rent... I can replace my home, but not my baby boy.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I will be in north andover MA tomorrow, which I think is something like and hour and a half drive for you. I can bring some Pen G with me and some B-complex to tide you over until you get paid. Let me know. Just PM or email me. [email protected]


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

:hug: ray: If I lived near, I could help. I have a full bottle of Pen and B complex. :sigh: Do you have a regular vet you use? Can you call and ask about a payment plan? Or maybe some pen shots till you get paid. Do you know the people at TSC? I know Terry would help here. (I think I pay the salary on a couple of her people) What is the closet TSC to you? I can ask Terry if there is anyway she can call and get them to help. I'll wait til I hear from you. I have to get feed this afternoon. Good luck!

Gina


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

RunAround, thank you for your kind and generous offer. It is much appreciated. I'll let you know.. I'm still waiting to see if my check arrives today or in the am.. It's due on the 23rd as this client's due date is on that day, but in the past it's 99% of the time been early, so I'm hoping and waiting.


Anyway, a little progress has been made I think.. I hope progress continues.. His latest temperature, about an hour ago, was 104.2  which was roughly a couple hours after I chopped 3 aspirin up and mixed it in with 1/4 handful of grain which he ate as he normally would.

He's taken treats too  I gave him 2 slices of apple and a couple carrot top greens fresh out of the garden. He's also been browsing on browned pine needles and fresh green oak leaves.. I see more of his usual self coming out and with a thunderstorm coming, hopefully there'll be some cool breeze to keep him cooled.

I hope the :angelgoat: is watching over my Carrot.

Mrs Lam, thank you too.. the nearest TSC to me is Derry, but they don't carry syringes


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

It certainly sounds like Carrot has made a turn for the better, the aspirin seems to be helping with his fever, and as long as he's willing to eat and he's eliminating normally..give him what he wants. I do hope you can get the Pen G...I am seriously doubting this to be polio or listeria at this point, due to the fact that he's still with you and doing better. He's got an infection somewhere though, due to the elevated temp.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

I just got $50 so I'm driving over to TSC to get the PenG and B complex injectable, then need to head across town to another feed store to get syringes.. I should take him to the vet, but $50 isn't going to be enough and they demand payment up front.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Sounds like my doe that I posted about, and several that I am hearing is doing the same thing. 

You need to put ice packs on her pole and down her neck, not on her stomach. The only thing that finally kicked this nasty stuff is Bytril. I know several people here have said it has caused problems with some of their goats, but that is what all the vets are giving to knock this. If you do not get this goat treated FAST you will lose her also. 

This is horrible stuff, but treatable. Make sure if you can get the Bytril that you give probiotic twice a day to prevent gut problems. I also offered three different waters for her, one fresh water twice a day, electrolyte water and molasses water. When my doe drank she did drink the molasses water over the rest. If she is not drinking drench her. Also put a fan on her.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

Unfortunately the B complex in stock where I went was expired in 04/2010 so I did not get it. They did not have any B12 either.. which is what I need? I'll have to call around I guess... I don't suppose the vet would subscribe or sell me a bottle of Thiamine without examining my goat, etc.. which I would do if I had more $$ right now.

I did get the PenG, but am confused as to how much I am supposed to give as dosages I read online say "Dosage recommended between 3-5 cc per 100 lbs" and he's only around 20ish pounds, next I'm unsure if I should do SQ or IM and am sort of afraid of doing this.

For needles, all I could get are 20 gauge 3/4inch or 22 gauge 1 inch and the syring is 5ml, so how many ml = how many cc?


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

bottle says 3000 units per lb of animal and each ml contains 300,000 units, so for 20ish lbs, would 0.2ml be correct or should I use 0.3 in a 1.0ml syringe?

Also, bottle says IM only and one ml per 100lbs of body weight


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

18 or 20 gauge needle works best. The pen is very thick. (keep in fridge) The dose would be 1cc(ml) per 20 lbs. 3-5 days. I always give mine SQ. It hurts a lot less and a goats metabolism is high enough to use it as effectively as IM. When you got the shot ready, roll it in your hands for a bit to warm it. (I put mine in my bra and putter around the goat yard for awhile to warm it up.) It stings less. I pinch a tent of skin at his armpit on his side and insert. Pull the plunger back a little to make sure there is no blood. No blood? Give the shot. I rub the sight to help ease any pain then give him some jelly beans. (or whatever he likes) I hope this helps. Good luck and blessings to poor little Carrot. :hug: 

Gina


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

mrs. lam said:


> The dose would be 1cc(ml) per 20 lbs. ...


But the bottle says 1ml per 100lbs.. Not questioning your knowledge, I just don't want to overdose him and make things worse


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## lissablack (Nov 30, 2009)

Here is a good list of drugs and doses for goats. Goats sometimes get different doses than other animals because of their metabolism. It's why little goats get such big doses of aspirin.

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/medications.htm#peng

Jan


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

I usually dose PenG @ 1ml/15lbs, 2x/day through either an 18ga (preferred) or 20ga needle, for at least 7 days. 

Labels rarely mean anything when dealing with goats... You're not going to O/D him.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

I can't do it :sigh: 

I had the needle in my hand and a little pinch of skin and chickened out and he won't stay still... Would IM be easier to do, can I just jab it in there real quick.. my next question is the speed for pushing plunger in.. do I do it fast or slow and also, how do I make sure there's no air bubbles in there or not.. I flicked it with my finger a couple times.. This needs to be done, but I'm squeemish about doing this for the first time.

Also, the needle is only 3/4.. how far do I stick it in?


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

OMG! I couldn't get the needle to go in, so pushed it into the loose skin near front leg, I guess near the armpit, ok, so the needle was in, I drawed back a little and don't see blood, so start pushing plunger and goat starts struggling and he screams, so I take out needle.. he got just a tiny bit into him....

I don't feel comfortable or confident doing this.. What are the risks of damaging him, hurting him or causing injury, etc..


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Your not going to hurt him. Air bubbles are not going to hurt him as long as you don't put a whole syringe full of air into a vein. 

Just put the needle in, check for blood and if not then put it in. If they struggle then I usually just send the plunger home and get all the meds in rather than stick several times. 

I do Pen G IM or SQ at 1cc per 10 lbs twice a day. 

Think of it this way, if you don't do this then he is going to die....


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I am so sorry to read you are going through this. I know giving shots is not easy, I haven't given my first one yet, but I've watched my husband give them. I know it's not easy, but you just have to try, and be confident in yourself. 
My husband gave the Pen G to our doe behind the leg - the armpit area you mentioned, and she was fine. Just like everyone said, make sure you don't hit a vein, and he should be okay. 

Good Luck, and wish I lived closer I'd offer whatever help I could give.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

This morning around 10:30am his temp was 102.7 and he did not get the PenG injection yet.

For precaution, I ground up 2 aspirin, 3 multi vitamin and 3 B12 and mixed it in with a 1/4 handful of grain which he ate.

He is acting normal and has been all day.

I tried finding help to give the injection, but found no one to help, so finally just went out there around 1:30 and jabbed him in the hind quarter and gave him 1 and half ml injection.. No problems, no complications and I feel better now, and surely Carrot feels better.

I gave him some watermelon because he LOVES this and I believe it's a good source of Thiamine. I also fed him a little bit of grain with a double dose or Probios to replenish his rumen, but this was shared between him and my other goat, hence the double dose.

I just took temp again and it's 102.8 

Do I need to continue giving penicillin injections? When should next dose be, and for how long do I give it to him? Or is the one injection enough since his temp is back to normal?

OH, his poops are brown now instead of black.. is this because of the vitamins or is this ok? The poops are clumped together like a raspberry instead of loose like blueberries. It seems to also have more odor too.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

He needs to get the Pen G 2 times a day for at least 5 days. Giving less antibiotics than required or giving it for less time than required just creates resistant bacteria, which means pen G wont work anymore, and then you will have to go on to something stronger.....


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

RunAround said:


> He needs to get the Pen G 2 times a day for at least 5 days. Giving less antibiotics than required or giving it for less time than required just creates resistant bacteria, which means pen G wont work anymore, and then you will have to go on to something stronger.....


Thank you. Just wanted to make sure because his temp went down and symptoms dissipated before he was given the PenG, so didn't know if he even needs to be injected more or not.

Should I also continue giving him the crushed vitamins? I'm shopping online and will be getting B complex fortified so I have it on hand, but looks like it will be maybe a week before I have it in hand. While I'm at it, anything else I should have on hand for emergencies? I already have in my cart some CD antitoxin, UAA Gel, & Selenium + E gel. Can't buy everything, but want to get whatever my local feed stores may not have on hand if and when I may need it ASAP


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Give it SQ...what you just did -- jabbing him randomly and pushing the plunger -- is actually FAR more dangerous than giving it SQ. Had you hit a blood vessel and accidentally injected it IV, he'd be dead right now. Plus, there's something back there called the sciatic nerve...hit that, and his back leg's toast.

Straddle the goat across his neck...he's facing one way, you're facing the other, so you're looking down his back toward his hind end. Lock your legs around his neck so he can't get loose. With your non-dominant hand, reach straight down and get ahold of SOME HAIR across his ribs right behind his front elbow...pull straight out on it. That should make a nice little tent in the skin; if it doesn't, let go and do it again until it does. When you get a nice tent, JAB the needle straight down into it -- quickly -- with your dominant hand. Since it's PenG, it's probably prudent to pull back on the plunger a tad...if you don't get a puff of blood (which you won't), go ahead and push the plunger.

If the goat screams and cries and cuts a shine, oh well. Some do that. Others, I can inject while their heads are in the feeder and they won't even notice it. 

Seriously -- he's not hurt. Their hides are tough. They're built to jump up on briar patches and ride them down. I've personally witnessed goats get their ears tangled in blackberries and just sling their heads to get them loose...you can hear it going "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrip" as they come out. They don't care.

He ain't hurt if he screams when you stick'im....he's just being a drama queen. I promise.

You can do this. I used to be just like you -- I swear to it -- and now I'm just downright EVIL when it comes to stuff like this. If they run from me or give me a hard time when I'm giving shots at this point, all it means is they get stuck as many times as it takes to get it done. Matters not to me if that's once or twice or half a dozen times...it gets done. Period. :laugh:

You can do it. I promise. And when you get it done, you're gonna feel like a ROCKSTAR.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I am so glad to hear that Carrot is doing better...and I agree, he needs the PenG for the 5 days. God forbid something else would come up requiring Pen G only to find that it's not effective.

cmjust, I know Carrots daddy is a novice with giving injections, the getting over the goats' reaction comes with experience,but when it's a pet getting the shot it's a completely different emotion, I do find though that giving IM is easier than SQ...through experience though, my first attempt at a IM injection was with my 10 year old doe..she was 2 years old and needed PenG, I followed the label directions and ended up hitting her sciatic nerve. I felt so awful and to this day she has a limp, after that I was extremely careful about how far I poked that needle, having a 3/4 inch needle makes it difficult to go too far...I found myself sticking my 5 month old doeling 2x a day with Pen G IM for 7 days per vets orders a few months ago...It was easier to stick her in the hiney while she had her face in the feed pan than what it was to stick her SQ with B-Comp. Either way, it is always best to pull back on the plunger to be sure you didn't hit a vessel.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

You're like the zillionteenth person I know who's hit the sciatic on a goat, though...that's why I never advise IMs in the leg. When I IM, I put it in their shoulneck. I think that's the proper medical term for the area right between the shoulder and the neck. :laugh:

I rarely IM, though.. I hate it. I usually wuss out and use like a 25ga x 5/8" needle because -- so far -- it's always been something watery enough to permit that. Like banamine or lute. If it's anything else...I SQ it.

I agree -- it does take time to get over the shot squeemies. I'm just trying to psych the OP up for it, and/or give a better explanation of how it's most easily done, and/or keep him from laming one in the sciatic and/or stopping its heart with an IV shot of PenG.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I totally agree, when a newbie, it's best to do the SQ...I learned the hard way and thankfully Bootsie forgave me and it didn't cause her any issues other than that slight limp.


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

liz said:


> ...It was easier to stick her in the hiney while she had her face in the feed pan than what it was to stick her SQ with B-Comp. Either way, it is always best to pull back on the plunger to be sure you didn't hit a vessel.


That's exactly what I did.. I put some grain in the dish and while he was munching away I poked needle into the loose fleshy part of his hind leg, using 3/4" 20 gauge needle.. I did pull back plunger a bit.. no blood, and I just injected the PenG without issue.. no scream, no cry, he just kept eating.. I watched for any reaction, then waited to watch him walk and didn't see any problems.

I did find this to be much easier than trying to get needle into a "tent".

I put it here,


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

LOL i'm mean and stick them with a big needle when It's pen G. I can shoot it in faster .

I had another goat breeder show me how to do IM in the back leg and I still hit the nerve on TWO diff goats. One had a limp for about 2 months. But thankfully both recovered. So now I always do neck, shoulders or over the ribs. 

So with shots, it's live, learn and do whats best for you and the goats.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

That's not mean; that's _correct_. Being a suspension, PenG should be given though a big needle -- 18ga is best, I've found. The particles are WAY too big to flow through a 22ga, so you wind up having to draw, then backflush, then draw, then backflush, over and over again just to get the syringe dosed up.. All those particles that were too big to go through a 22ga needle are left in the vial, though, instead of going in the goat....which means you've got more carrier and less med than you should....which means you're underdosing.

So, ya...with Pen, it's always an 18ga needle. And yeah, it does go much faster that way. :laugh:


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

cmjust0 said:


> That's not mean; that's _correct_. Being a suspension, PenG should be given though a big needle -- 18ga is best, I've found. The particles are WAY too big to flow through a 22ga, so you wind up having to draw, then backflush, then draw, then backflush, over and over again just to get the syringe dosed up.. All those particles that were too big to go through a 22ga needle are left in the vial, though, instead of going in the goat....which means you've got more carrier and less med than you should....which means you're underdosing.
> 
> So, ya...with Pen, it's always an 18ga needle. And yeah, it does go much faster that way. :laugh:


Oh sh--! I used a 20 gauge 3/4" I'll go run out and get some 18 1".

I want to make sure I'm doing things correct here.. I'm supposed to be giving him probios after every injection, correct? I've also been giving him B12 and multivitamins crushed up to help with stress.. just picked up some Spring Valley Super B complex to use til I get the injectable.. I don't like the idea of having to inject him twice..

How long of a wait after shot does he need the probios? I gave it to him minutes afterwards.. was that too soon?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

You can give him the probiotics daily if you want, and as long as he's not further stressed by you doing so...it's all good beneficial bacteria that helps the gut when antibiotics are used, but if you gave it every other day or waited til after the course of Pen was done that would be better...Pen isn't choosy about which bacteria it kills, good or bad. I was giving the probiotic paste to Penny a few hours after her Pen injection, my vet said it was ok but it was more important to give it after the round of Pen.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

It's OK...a 20ga x 3/4" will work fine, for the most part. When you get into 22ga -- that's a problem. Occasionally you'll have to backflush a big chunk out of a 20ga as you're drawing up the dose, but not very often. So, you're fine...it's really OK. 

As for the probios...I actually don't worry too much about rumen disturbance with injectable antibiotics because I've never seen it cause much of a problem in a goat. Perhaps on a prolonged dose of something super powerful, but never after a regular round of PenG.

In my experience, anyway.

That's not to say Probios is a bad idea, though.. It's fine, though I'd cut it back to once a day -- at most.. As for the timing of the Probios, that's pretty much irrelevant considering the whole idea of twice daily injections is to keep the blood supplied with therapeutic levels of Pen round the clock. 

Like Liz said...probably a dose of Probios once the PenG is done would be sufficient.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

20 gauge works fine. I use that most of the time when I give PenG. You can usually get away with a 20 gauge but it Depends on the manufacturer on how big the particles are.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Durvet's "Pen Aqueous" always seems to come in the 'extra chunky' variety.. I've had it plug 20ga needles before, and a 22ga...forget it. Can't even draw it up.. :laugh:


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Yes! that's the one I had issues with! GRR. :scratch:


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## nadlemgarcia (Jul 21, 2010)

Maybe, just like humans, there is a growing tooth experienced by the goat. It could be the reason he is acting so unusual. I wish the goat well.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

RunAround...got a better brand you can recommend? I only buy that one because I can get it locally at TSC on short notice, and since it's refrigerated....just easier.

I'd certainly be willing to try something new, though.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

How is Carrot doing today? Hope to hear good news soon!


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

liz said:


> How is Carrot doing today? Hope to hear good news soon!


he's been normal since Tuesday, but I still have 2 more days of PenG injections to go.. for the life of me I can't do the "tent" so have been jabbing IM cause that's the only way I've been able to get the needle in.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

At this point, as long as he's getting it and you're not having any of the problems that come with IM, he'll be fine. Glad to hear he's not worse, good job!


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## CrockettsLastStand (Apr 1, 2010)

liz said:


> At this point, as long as he's getting it and you're not having any of the problems that come with IM, he'll be fine. Glad to hear he's not worse, good job!


So far only problems I'm having is getting needle to go in without jabbing it in, which is why I had hard time with pinching a "tent" cause his skin is so tight I can't get much of a tent and one time I tried jabbing a tent, missed and poked my finger instead.. I tried neck shoulder area once too, but have not tried this area again since only time I did, when I pulled back there was blood.. I'm staying near and around the fleshy area of rear legs.. Poor Carrot has been poked so much these past few days as each injection takes me a few tries to get it in with him moving around so much, but he's forgiving, just walks away afterwards like nothing happened


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## zoomom (Feb 27, 2010)

cmjust0 said:


> You're like the zillionteenth person I know who's hit the sciatic on a goat, though...that's why I never advise IMs in the leg. When I IM, I put it in their shoulneck. I think that's the proper medical term for the area right between the shoulder and the neck. :laugh:
> 
> I rarely IM, though.. I hate it. I usually wuss out and use like a 25ga x 5/8" needle because -- so far -- it's always been something watery enough to permit that. Like banamine or lute. If it's anything else...I SQ it.
> 
> I agree -- it does take time to get over the shot squeemies. I'm just trying to psych the OP up for it, and/or give a better explanation of how it's most easily done, and/or keep him from laming one in the sciatic and/or stopping its heart with an IV shot of PenG.


I just did my first shots a couple weeks ago. (CD/T) I had a friend show me how to do SQ (she has done lots of shots with dogs) - She did one, and then i did the other two. It was really hard to start, but then it was okay.

The only thing we did differently was that we did SQ the back of the neck - the armpit seemed more difficult. I was thinking that next time i would put them in the milking stand and do it while doing other stuff, unless i had someone to hold them. Also everyone said to use 20 gauge, and we did for the first two, but for my petite doe we used the 22 gauge - my friend thought the 20 gauge was too big and recommended that i use the 22 in the future. It was easier b/c the needle was shorter, i didn't have to worry about poking through the other side with a struggling goat (although maybe not for Pen since it needs the bigger gauge)

Last time i gave the goats wormer (Ivermectin) I set the dial, shoved the goat in the corner (i had three goat doses left in the tube) she started resisting, i pushed the plunger - and she got ALL THREE DOSES! I figured she would be okay (she was) and got a new tube for the other two. Set the dial again - making SURE it was tight - the next one struggled even worse - and she got almost the entire tube! (she was okay too thank goodness) I had just enough for the last one. (i had only done this once before and didn't have any of these problems) Anyway from now on I will either get someone to help or put them in the stand, b/c I don't want to hurt them. If you don't have a stand or a helper, tie them up tight to a post so the struggling is limited.


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