# Needing some positive words...



## mjbrenner08 (Nov 14, 2014)

Its our first winter kidding, and so far its been rough. Moms not being very open to taking the babies, its freezing cold and myself...im at a loss of anything positive. I feel we get kids up and going, try to get them out with mom and they end up back down. 
Do I need to reevaluate my nannies? R we doing something wrong? I get so hopeful and then boom something goes wrong so fast and ends fatal. Granted weve had 6 kids lost 2 so far...but we have 5 left to kid...and im getting very discouraged. 
And one thats out with mom...im unsure if mom is really feeding her. Shes skiddish when were out there, we have to tie her up to stand still to nurse. Weve been offering a 3 oz bottle to supplement the kid, she will just down the bottle...and try and nurse. Im not sure if shes even getting any from mom and it has me stressed too. We tried to milk mom and cant get much...so is she really producing? 
I LOVE my goats... We are newer to the goat world, but starting to wonder what we are even,doing! 
Im sorry to ramble, but looking for advice...anyone else ever felt this way?


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Oh, honey. Big hug. Winter kidding is a tough one. Tuck those babies in your jackets to warm them up and enjoy baby hugs.

Is this your very first year? Or do you have some track record on the moms? Some goats aren't good moms. But many are, even if they've never done it before.

Are the moms showing normal energy and appetite? Low blood sugar is tough on a mom, and they're using a lot just to keep themselves warm this time of year.

Do the babies have cozy huts to climb into to stay warm? Cold weather, our babies always pile into the hut instead of snuggling with moms. Singles need supplemental heat, though.

Just a hunch, but I'd be looking at nutrition first. Goats don't get post-partum depression; that's usually a sign of nutritional deficit.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

:hug: We have ALL gone thru times like this! Are you doing something wrong? NO. This is just a normal cycle that comes with owning and breeding animals. We go thru years where everything just falls into place and it seems like the easiest thing in the world and then...boom...the bottom falls out and it feels like nothing we try works. 

The weather this winter had been very challenging so far. In my area we have had such extreme temp changes that I can't figure out why half my animals aren't sick! And I hear others talking about the same thing. 

For your little one you're not sure is getting anything....as much as I hate bottle babies, I would be pretty tempted to pull her and bottle. Or offer a bottle more often, say 2 or 3 times a day.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

These are the kinds of years that make us want to throw in the towel for sure, at least it sure is tempting.
Sometimes FF (first freshners) don't have a clue for the first few days on what to do.
Most of us keep doe & new babies in a stall for three or four days so they can bond & we can check on them easily.
I wonder if your girl doesn't have much milk because kid really is nursing?
Does kid have fairly nice fullish belly or are his sides sunken in? That would be a sure sign he isn't getting enough to eat.
Another thing in case you don't know, is that moms feed kids several times throughout the day & night in short intervals, then walk off.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Yep. My first kidding was also troublesome. If there is a silver lining, it is that you are learning with every problem and you and your herd will be stronger for it going forward. If certain does cause you extra stress, then by all means, eliminate them from your herd. Take good care of and keep the daughters of the ones who are naturals. I can't tell for sure from your post, but it helps to isolate dams with their kids. If I have one that is refusing to mother, I will hold her for the babies. Sometimes they will change their minds. If you have a new herd, there may be some security issues with your goats, where they are having a hard time letting go of their own desire to survive over being a mother. This would be particularly true of maiden does in a new environment. I think your main objective right now would be to set up some kidding pens for the remaining five does. Even if it's just two pens for the closest ones to kidding. Also consider a heat source for newborns, like a safely set up heat lamp.


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## mjbrenner08 (Nov 14, 2014)

Thank you all. I just get so down when i cant make something better after ive had it so strong! 
We have 4 stalls right now. And 3 huts to get into out in the pen. And the rest of the barn is open to the rest of the babies and nannys. 
How soon after do you let them out of the stalls? We let one mom and her buck out today and they seem to be good! I have the trouble doe locked up still baby has a heat lamp. She is smaller...her twin buck we just lost today...he just went weak and wouldnt perk up... 
I really REALLY appreciate all the encouraging words. Makes me feel better at this rock bottom time.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

mjbrenner08 said:


> Thank you all. I just get so down when i cant make something better after ive had it so strong!
> We have 4 stalls right now. And 3 huts to get into out in the pen. And the rest of the barn is open to the rest of the babies and nannys.
> How soon after do you let them out of the stalls? We let one mom and her buck out today and they seem to be good! I have the trouble doe locked up still baby has a heat lamp. She is smaller...her twin buck we just lost today...he just went weak and wouldnt perk up...
> I really REALLY appreciate all the encouraging words. Makes me feel better at this rock bottom time.


Well, this makes some of my advise obsolete. Sorry. I usually keep them in the stall together for a couple weeks. At least one week. Again, I am reading between the lines from your posts here, but it is now starting to sound like you are losing babies from not getting enough to eat *and* the cold. I would double down on making sure those babies are sucking and keeping them warm. Warm sleeping babies are good. Crying babies desperate to eat, not. I have had good luck with what I call "warming barrels". 55 gallon plastic drums set up with a kid size door and a heat lamp. I throw those little guys in there as soon as they are born. I'll see if I can find a GS thread on them.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f197/heat-lamps-newborns-164517/

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f188/warming-barrels-65-ohio-135817/

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f217/warming-barrels-kidding-season-153668/


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It can be rough sometimes, I know the feeling, 2014 was one of those, but now is a new year, hopefully it will go well for all.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

So sorry you're having a hard time! And sorry for the losses. My first year, I had not one textbook kidding! I overfed ALL of my does, I had about 30 bred does that year, and every. single. kid. needed pulled, even the quads and triplets, and especially the singles and twins. They were all positioned wrong, and gigantic! Some prolapsed, some tore their uterus, ugh, never again! 
Hopefully things will start looking up for you!


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

I adjust bonding stall time as needed. If mom doesn't feel up to taking on the herd, she stays. If mom freaks out at being isolated, I let her out and hope for the best. I start by letting mom out while the kids are sleeping and put her back in; when weather allows, I kick everyone else out of the barn and let mom practice leading her kids inside the empty barn.

Top goats can come out earlier; bottom goats need more time to get the hang of motherhood before they take babies into the chaos of the herd. Weak bonding, I keep them in longer to let those lactation hormones boost the bond.

You might look at locking the similar-age babies together for a couple hours during the day. Ours always end up as one big group, piled together in the hut. The singles get adopted into the pile. If the single sleeps alone, he needs heat. They can't regulate body temp when they're womb-fresh.

You might put the skittish mom back in a bonding stall, so it's easier to work with her and check on her baby.

Good luck!!


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## mjbrenner08 (Nov 14, 2014)

Thank you all! Weve been holding momma still and keeping baby to latch! My hope is it gets more and more comfortable for both! Thanks for all the information, such a big help. I just hate this cold. It may be thr 1st and last time we accomidate for 4-hers lol. I just keep my prayers going and that the rest of our births go smoothly!!!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I think we have all had bad years...my first goat year we lost several new borns and a few moms...I was ready to quit too..almost 10 years later, Im very glad I kept at it! 
How does moms udder feel? is it soft or hard? if she is congested she wont want the kids to nurse becuase its painful...and she wont have much milk for baby and they will starve and freeze...Its great you are supplementing to help mom on..be sure to keep a close watch on tummies...you want a flat firm tummy...not too poochy or sunken in...if they get too much milk they cant digest it fast enough and it can become toxic...
to help keep babies warmer..I like to stick a enclosed type dog kennel with extra hay bedding...babies can get in a snuggle...if its just one baby...might need to add a hot water bottle...I hate using heat lamps...I have..but I cant sleep if they are on lol...such a worry wart...but if you do use one...it needs to be high enough mom wont stick her horn in it...or hit it with her head...moms have been known to push babies out of the heat to lay under it herself....if I have a weak or tiny baby..they sleep indoors at night where I know their tummies are fed and plenty of warmth...
hang in there...!!

best wishes


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm so sorry your going through this, I'm sure anyone who raises animals goes through issues, I know we have, and winter can be a tough time, but doesn't always have to be discouraging.

What is your set up like and your routine? Barn sealed pretty good or is it a bit drafty? What are your day time/night time temps?

What are you feeding your mama's, how much, and how many times a day? 
Are they drinking plenty of water?
Are you in a selenium deficient area? If so, are you supplementing? 
What about worming your does? any chance they could have worms? Did you worm them after kidding?

Just thought I'd ask and see if any of your answers might lead to some more advice, especially if your does are not producing much milk.

Last winter was a crazy one for us, we had the good, the bad, and the ugly!

We are like Tenacross and prefer to stall our does and babies for 1-2 weeks. 
They are stalled at night, and depending on how they are doing and weather permitting we take them out to stretch their legs, 1 mama/babies at a time. Once they've had time to bond, and I know everyone is doing okay, and babies are good on their feet <so they can get away from other mamas!>, that's when we introduce them to the herd.
I find it's a bit hard to monitor them if they are turned out with the herd too soon, and sometimes mama's aren't doing their job as well.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm set up sort of like Tim, I have one of those igloo doghouses with a hole in the top I can run the cord through, and a board at the entrance so mom can't fit her head in (but they still peek in to watch the babies lol.)


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## mjbrenner08 (Nov 14, 2014)

We own 12 boer goats. 1 buck, 1 weather, 10 does. Ages 5 -1. I have had 3 kid so far. And have 4 left to do so any time. 2 are younger and not bred. 
We hAve them in a 5 acre pen. When its nicer they r let out to graze another 15 acres. Hay available 24 7. We feed in the evening. A 50-50 mix of treated (coccidiosis medicated) and % sweet feed. This is the only 2 avaliable from our feed store...i can get something different from tsc or orschleins if needed. 
We worm every 6 mo. I have asked about post partum worming and never gotten a comfortable response. Im up for whatever we need to do. 
We have a barn (old so kind of drafty) but it has 4 stalls for kidding which have been great. We plan to finish the other side this summer. They can,get under another old barn out of,the wind and weather...also,have 3 huts (old hog huts ) that are all furnished w straw. 
Im up for any and all suggestions of good and bad changes we need to make. 
I appreciate all of the help so much!!!! Giving me something to keep working for!!!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

With medicated feed, you must feed according to the directions on the bag. If you are mixing it with something else, then you are diluting the medication and it won't be effective. 

I personally don't worm after kidding unless I have a worm problem but I also only have 4 goats. For a larger operation, you may need to worm after kidding.

Do you have a good loose goat mineral out for them?


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## mjbrenner08 (Nov 14, 2014)

Ive never had any issues w worms after kidding. We usually get the block mineral...is that enough?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

No, they're not formulated for goats and they can't get enough from it.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You really need a good loose mineral out for them. They can't get enough from a block.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

You can use a loose cattle mineral for your goats. Just make sure it isn't mostly salt and it has enough copper for goats.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

If you can't get a good goat mineral, then get a good loose cattle mineral, talk to the feed store and let them know it's for goats, and that you don't want too much salt, and need the kind with the most copper. We used to use a good cattle mineral a couple of years ago when we used to buy our feed at a feed mill, they didn't have goat mineral. The cattle mineral <Gainbooster I believe was the name> was really good and wasn't too expensive.
We now use another feed store, so we buy their goat mineral, I think it's Purina brand, but the goats do like it.

I'd buy it by 25-50lb. bags, it will last you longer.

We always worm our does after kidding, that away if there is an issue, we can take care of it, but that's just us.
Worming every 6mo. if it works then that is fine, it wouldn't work here because we have to alternate our wormers. I like using horse wormers for ours, and alternate between Equimax & Quest Plus. Again, that's what works for us 

It sounds like the barn is fine, as long as they don't have cold drafts directly on the babies then that shouldn't be an issue. Are they solid stall walls? If not, you could always rig up some cheap OSB/sheets of wood to enclose the bottom 1/2 of the stall to keep the drafts out.

I also agree about the feed. If you are mixing with a non medicated feed, then the medication isn't going to work. We used to do the same thing and stopped when we realized it makes the medication non effective.
We only feed a 16% medicated, pelleted feed now, but we started adding in cracked corn late this summer to our girls feed, and they seem to be doing really well with it.

We kid in the winter for 4-H as well, but for our kids - they pick their 4-H wether/does/bucks, and sell the rest to help pay for their 4-H expenses. If it weren't for needing to sell the extra goats, we probably wouldn't kid until Feb/Mar. But this past year we sold all our extra boys as 4-H projects and have some kids that would like to buy from us again.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

We don't worm every doe after she kids, but we do worm any that have issues. Clumpy poo, tough birth, run down after kidding - we worm. Worms can bloom late in pregnancy because the immune system is tamped down, so we figure any goat who looks like her system isn't 100% is probably getting a worm bloom, too.

Ditto what was said on minerals. And getting proper minerals into the goats is critical. Quality goat minerals are worth the price, and goats can't use salt licks; they need soft molasses-based blocks or loose minerals (loose is better).

On the medicated feed - read what the dose range is, and figure out how much each goat needs. We try to feed it exactly between minimum and maximum dose, BY WEIGHT, so the piggies don't overdose and the shy ones get a minimum dose. If any goat gets run off from the feeders, they aren't getting their dose, so you need to address that (maybe feed separately, maybe add feeders). Medicated feed is convenient but hugely unreliable for correct dosing. When we've used it, we think of it as reducing the risk, not prevention. Stay alert to signs of coccidiosis even with medicated feed.

With 5 acres and plenty of shelters, you might think about subdividing and rotating the main pasture to reduce worm burdens. Not today, but as a long-term strategy. Resting the ground goes a long way to reducing parasites, including coccidia.


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