# What the heck's going on with this first freshener?



## Clear Crescent (Feb 26, 2011)

My first freshener was put with our buck on Oct 10. We think she was bred by Oct 14, although who knows (both adults in the home work) ... she could have been bred that first day. If she bred the first day, she would be at 141 days today. That would put her at 4-8 days earlier than "they" say she could give birth at the earliest. I noticed this morning that her vulva is not just bulging, but about 4-5 cm open, and it looks like maybe a kid is poking out? Her anus is about 1 cm open. I haven't seen any streaming, and she doesn't appear to be straining like she is pushing or immimently going to kid. I've only sporadically checked her ligaments because I thought she had several more days, but they seemed to be not much if anything there ... but maybe she is just made that way? I didn't want to get her up and moving or disturb her right away, hoping maybe it was just the way she was laying. I will be heading home from work soon to check on her and will try to get some pictures. 

I've only been through one other kidding season, with her dam and one other doe ... if she kids this will be the first of four this season and only my third ever. Last year's kidding looked "normal" - streaming, ligaments lessening and then gone, rhythmic contractions culminating in pushing. I did have to help both does, the first when she had been pushing for several hours with no progress, the second (this doe's dam) after the first kid was born to the head and then pushing stopped completely. Buckling was turning black and his legs ended up being crossed inside. I don't know if that kidding would have resolved spontaneously if I hadn't interfered or not. 

Gah! Does any of this sound normal? Is she going to kid? If she does kid early, does the goat baby have a chance at survival?


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

If there is a kid poking out then she is in labor. They don't get to that position unless they are needing to come out. If the kid is before 138 survival is slim. If you see the sac there and she is not progressing at all she needs help. It is possible the kid is deceased also if she is this early and is not acting in labor but is birthing. ray: Hopefully everything is ok.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

Sometimes when a pregnant doe is laying down their vulva will open a tad bit, especially towards the end, but if you could see a dark/amber colored bubble inside then she was in labor. Hopefully she is ok, and just was laying funny.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Some Does prepare well at the vulva and dilate to well......some will start to prolapse late in pregnancy because her kids are taking up to much room...... 

Is it a kid at the door way...with the sack over it... clear like or.. solid red tissue?
If it is is solid red tissue... it is prolapse.... please check.. Is this happening when she is laying down... then when she gets up ..it goes back in? If so...she will be ok if it doesn't go back in when she stands and is out quite far... you will have to put it back in.... it is best to have someone that knows how to do this....as she can get damaged or killed if not done properly... :hug: 

Check to see what it is.... baby in clear bag ...to baby without a bag...or solid red mass...


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I agree with Pam, I'm thinking it might be a slight prolapse ...


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## Clear Crescent (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks y'all. It was not a kid or a sac, just her tissues that were opening when she was laying down. She got up and moved around, and it all looked normal, no prolapse. Thank goodness ... she gets a few more days to cook those babies.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

How is she today? :hug: ray:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Your welcome... :thumb: 

Yes ...she is slightly prolapsing as she lays down.....which is OK...keep an eye on her..if it gets to where.. it does not want to go back in by itself... you will have to get it back it....... Just because they prolapse ...doesn't mean... they will deliver per-maturely.... 
When She is ready to kid...you will have to make sure... the prolapse isn't in the way to deliver the kids.....make sure... you do see the kid in the sack and not your Doe trying to deliver her prolapse...the prolapse will have to be inserted back in for her to deliver her babies...if she does prolapse...it is critical to monitor her..when she is slightly prolapsing.... :wink:


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## Clear Crescent (Feb 26, 2011)

*UPDATE - kid:What the heck's going on with this first freshe*

A lot has happened since my original post. Sassy is the dam I was asking about originally. The weekend before she started prolapsing while lying, I had my husband dose both first fresheners with selenium gel. Last year both of our (other) does had kids whose legs were very crippled. We dosed those kids (Sassy and Diva) with the selenium gel, and their legs straightened out (mostly) with time. So, I figured it was ok to dose the FF dams (Sassy and Diva) once. Apparently I was wrong. About a day after I first saw the prolapse, Sassy started getting very stiff and not walking well. Then she couldn't/wouldn't walk for a couple days. About a week after the selenium (last Friday), we came home from work and found her completely down, laying on her side and in very bad shape. We called a breeder/vet we know, and she said she suspected toxemia and advised supportive therapy and immediate induction. We live in an area where the vets don't work the weekends, won't do house calls or even take a phone call from someone who isn't a prior client, and we had never taken a goat in to a vet before. So, induction was out of the question at least over the weekend, and we started supportive therapy with Sassy - B complex IM injections, calcium gel orally, niacin 500 mg twice a day, gatorade, and keeping food and water very near her so she could eat anytime she was hungry without having to get up. Within a day she was up again on her stomach (not side lying), and within 2 or 3 days she was able to stand for a short time period, then she could hobble around a bit. She seemed to be getting better, so we held off with induction (I'm a midwifery student, so induction without real indication doesn't sit well with me). I began to suspect selenium toxicity instead, although geez I really don't have any real idea what happened.

Unfortunately our other FF, Diva, had the same progression to prolapse/stiffness/inability to walk, but she isn't bouncing back as quickly with the same supportive therapy. She is still eating well, so we are just keeping her near grain/hay and water and continuing with the other things too.

Well, last night Sassy kidded without warning and apparently without complication! There were no signs when I went out at 7pm to give her the vitamins/minerals/etc, although with her sitting all the time it's hard to tell. This morning I went out and there were two little doelings. I don't know how long it had been since they were born. I touched the placenta :shocked: to see if it was still warm (she didn't eat it), but it wasn't warm. The kids were clean and dry. I don't know if they nursed right away, but I doubt they did. I immediately got them both some colostrum from their dam (her udder is NOT filled out, but she had some colostrum) and dipped their navels.

Whew! So :help: ... I know that kids that don't nurse within the first hour don't do as well. Is there anything else I should be doing? I will be going home at lunch to help them nurse again. I have to nudge Sassy to stand up so they can nurse ... she doesn't like to stand. What about Sassy's udder? I think I remember reading that it is normal sometimes for a FF's udder to take a little while to fill out, but how long should I wait? She had a little colostrum, but how do I know if it's enough for the kids? Will it fill eventually? What's the protocol if her udder doesn't fill?

Sorry it's a long saga, thanks for any help you can give.


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## nubians2 (Feb 20, 2011)

Congrats on the doelings! How is her udder now, did it fill out when you went home for lunch?


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## Clear Crescent (Feb 26, 2011)

No, it hasn't filled. The kids wouldn't latch. I milked her, but she only gave about 2 oz. I split this between the kids, and then I thawed another 8 oz of colostrum from last year. Added about half the label amount of powdered colostrum to this and tried to feed the kids. They only took about another oz. That was 2 hours ago ... going out now to see if I can get them to eat again. I will continue to nurse the dam and see if she will give milk, but I may have bottle babies. I don't want bottle babies.


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