# Help! Doe acts like she is still in labor.



## emmaandoscar (Jan 20, 2013)

I posted an earlier thread about a week ago titled "False Labor". Well I thought I'd post a new thread since I have a new issue. My girl, Emma (pygmy doe bred by nigerian buck) had a difficult delivery today. I posted the outcome on the other thread. Anyhow, I am not sure if she delivered the placenta or not. I thought she did, but maybe not. It could have just been the sacks and goo from the babies. She is acting like she is still in labor. Will she still be in labor till she delivers the placenta? She is shaking and crying off and on. I posted a pic of what I thought was the placenta. I've never seen one so I don't know if this is it or not. What do you think? Placenta or not? If it isn't, could she be laboring still to deliver the placenta or could there be another kid 12 hours later? I'm stressed out & worried, been up all night with my doe in the goat barn. I hope someone is awake that can answer my questions.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Looks like placenta to me. Did you check her internally or bounce her to see if there were more kids inside? Is she nursing her kid? Milking her will help with the contractions. Take her temp. I like to offer warm molasses water after kidding.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I just read your other thread. So sorry. 
Sounds like a tough delivery, she's probably in pain if you had to pull kids. Did the vet give her anything for pain relief? Or antibiotics for possible infection from the dead kid?


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

Give her some B complex and some molasses water. She has had a rough time! Take her temp and see if it is normal. If she continues acting like she is straining, call the vet back out. Nutridrench would be good also if you have some.


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## emmaandoscar (Jan 20, 2013)

Well, one of the goat expert ladies that was here checked her and said she didn't think there were any more. The vet said he didn't believe in giving an antibiotic, said the uterus will clean itself out naturally and the kids died during the process and weren't dead prior. She just seems to still be in labor to me. I did hear back from the ladies and they said she probably still has placenta to clean out. She has some goo still hanging out of her. Vet is coming this morning to give her oxytocin, I guess to speed up the process of her uterus cleaning itself out. I hope she is going to be ok. Super sad about it and still worried about her. I thought the placenta was more "liver" looking than what the stuff looks like in the picture. This is my first time at this and I know nothing. It's definitely a learning experience and I have a lot to learn. Any help from you guys on here is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much!


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I had a tiny Nigerian doe who had kids pulled last year. I had to give the poor thing banamine for over a week. She was SO sore! 

I would assume the vet gave your girl antibiotics. But if the vet didn't, you will need to. As far as the contractions go, have you tried milking her at all. It will release hormones that will help her uterus return to normal. You can always dry her off later if you don't want to milk her regularly.

************
I posted this and then saw that you posted while I was typing. In my opinion, if there were people hands inside her then she is at risk of infection. Personally, I WOULD give her some antibiotic. I believe Pen G is good post birth. 

If you don't want to give antibiotic, then please do try feeding her some raw garlic daily along with one 500mg chewable vitamin c 2X daily for a few weeks. These will help her body fight the bacteria...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

emmaandoscar said:


> Well, one of the goat expert ladies that was here checked her and said she didn't think there were any more. The vet said he didn't believe in giving an antibiotic, said the uterus will clean itself out naturally and the kids died during the process and weren't dead prior. She just seems to still be in labor to me. I did hear back from the ladies and they said she probably still has placenta to clean out. She has some goo still hanging out of her. Vet is coming this morning to give her oxytocin, I guess to speed up the process of her uterus cleaning itself out. I hope she is going to be ok. Super sad about it and still worried about her. I thought the placenta was more "liver" looking than what the stuff looks like in the picture. This is my first time at this and I know nothing. It's definitely a learning experience and I have a lot to learn. Any help from you guys on here is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much!


I agree, if you go in, antibiotics is a must. By inserting into her uterus an afterbirth bolus or antibiotic injections of a full course is necessary. 
The vet is not very smart, goats cannot clean out that good on their own and if afterbirth is held to long can cause infection. It is not good to give Oxytocin if the doe's cervix is closed. At 6 hours it starts to get harder to enter to put a bolus into her. So, if it is within this time frame it is safe to do so, anything later, is asking for trouble.

Sometimes holding afterbirth is due to selenium deficiency. Giving a Bo-Se shot with a vit E gel tab or 2, snip the top and squirt it into her mouth helps to allow her to drop the after birth.

Afterbirth has little button looking things on it. If it drags the ground, tie in gently into knots, so she does not step on it. If it is short, you can get a light weight, not too heavy, put it into a rubber glove along with the afterbirth hanging out, tie it at the top area of the afterbirth close to her vulva as you can, helps add just enough weight to help gently pull it out. Never try to pull it out.

Sometimes they can drop more than 1 afterbirth.


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## emmaandoscar (Jan 20, 2013)

Ok, so I am confused. I keep getting mixed advice. How do I (someone that does not know anything about this stuff and oxytocin) tell my vet what you just said? I would be questioning and insulting to him if I call on him to come out and then I tell HIM what to do or what not to do. I am so stressed out about this whole ordeal. I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence or experience but someone has got to be wrong here. Not all people can be right about this stuff, right? So, do I let my vet do what you say not to do? I am so confused. I just want to be able to trust that my vet knows what he is doing. He is 70 years old and is knowledgeable, but then again, his knowledge is largely with cows. Damn....there just seems to be soooo many different options for the same issue, it's hard to know what the hell to do. I am at a loss. I just want to know that what the "best thing" to do in the situation is being done. That's all. I don't want to have something tragic based on me not picking the right opinion or treatment for my goat because right now, I feel like I should just flip a coin because I know absolutely not ONE IOTA which opinion/treatment is the correct one. I am so stressed out. I am falling apart at the seams right now as I write this. My vet is on his way over here and if he does the wrong thing---my goat could just die. I am not ok with that after her going through hell and then losing her two babies on top of it. Sooooo sad right now, can't even begin to describe it. I cried almost all night as I laid with my goat in the barn.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm so sorry you went through this. What a tragic start to kidding!

I agree with the others that your doe should be on antibiotics. She may be fine without, but it's better safe than sorry. Perhaps if you tell your vet that you are worried about uterine infection because of the trauma and having to fiddle around inside her, that _it would make you feel much better_ if she were on them. That way he doesn't have to be defensive or feel like you're telling him what to do. He may leave you with a bottle of penicillin (Pen-G), which would be good for you to have on hand in any case.

Try not to be nervous about telling your vet what you think and how you feel. It's your goat and you're the one paying his bill. The vet may be very good, but even best vet doesn't know everything (especially about goats).


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## emmaandoscar (Jan 20, 2013)

Thank you Damfino and everyone else. I'm sorry I was so frantic and stressed in my last post. It has been a very rough couple of days and I'm just new at this and scared.
My vet did come right after my last post. He was very adamant about not giving an antibiotic. He believes people are giving them unnecessarily and didn't believe we should worry about infection since he was gloved up and felt it was all clean. He gave her some oxytocin and pain med (Banamine). She seems to be settling down and feeling a bit better. She is still leaking some discharge/fluid and is cleaning it all up and the hay it falls on as she loses it. I milked out colostrum yesterday and milked one more time tonight. She doesn't have much, but vet and other goat knowledgeable ladies suggested I milk her a couple times to keep the colostrum frozen and on hand in case I may need it in the future.

I thought about continuing to milk her since I have more kids coming soon (hopefully we get live ones and easier kidding), and I have never experienced milking before and thought this might be a good opportunity to learn and also have milk on hand in case we need it for any of the other kids coming, if something didn't work out with the momma's and I needed goat milk. Might be nice to have a spare doe with readily available milk. I'm new at all of this and wanting to learn. Yesterday when I milked, she didn't have much and this evening, there wasn't much either; about a 1/2 cup, maybe a little more. I was thinking I could freeze it all if I decide to milk, since there isn't much. What is the proper way to freeze? Do you put it in jars or ziplock baggies and freeze? Maybe I should start a new thread for this topic?

Thank you for your help and advice.


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## GoatCrazy01 (Feb 14, 2016)

So so sorry for your losses  :mecry:

We freeze our milk in ice cubes and then put it into plastic bags, this way you don't have to defrost a ton of it for babies. Otherwise, to freeze it in large amounts, I'd say glass it the best way to go.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I freeze colostrum in breastmilk bags and label it as "day 1" "day 2" etc. That way if I need colostrum for a baby I know what's the good stuff. I only freeze milk for soap making so I can't help there.
She's young and in pain after a traumatic kidding. I personally would let her dry up and heal. But each person is different.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

As far as the antibiotics go, that's your decision. I would treat her asap. If she gets a uterine infection, she risks becoming infertile. Is that a risk you want to take?  You can pick up antibiotics at tractor supply or most feed stores. You don't have to tell your vet.


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## emmaandoscar (Jan 20, 2013)

Thank you all so much. I milked the colostrum the first two days and that was it. I am going to let her dry up. On the second day the vet gave her a shot of oxytocin, do you think that colostrum is ok to use since she had that shot? 

She seems to be doing ok. On third day I let her out of the maternity ward to visit with her friends. She cried most of the day, I swear she was searching and calling for her babies, even though she has never had babies before and I didn't let her see the dead babies. I think she must just instinctively know she gave birth. Broke my heart to watch her. I cleaned out the barn and the maternity ward while she was out with her friends and later she came back in and sniffed around the clean straw. She finally settled down late that evening. Every time I walked away from her, she cried. I spent a lot of time with her, petting her and talking to her to soothe her. Poor little girl. Yesterday she was much better, not crying, and seemed to be getting back to her normal goatie life with her friends.

I am going to purchase some antibiotics to have on hand. I thought it was something you had to get from a vet. Emma seems to be doing ok and is eating and drinking and doing her normal thing. I'm not sure how long it would take for an infection to set in. Would it be right away or take a few days? She had her kids on the 2nd and it's been 4 days now. I will keep a close eye on her and if she starts acting differently or feeling really hot/feverish, I'll know.

I am going to call my other vet and see what she would have done in this case.

Thank you, Carol


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Some antibiotics can be bought at a feed store and others have to be purchased through a vet. Penicillin is one I always keep on hand, and I believe that one is Rx. 

Don't worry too much about the antibiotics. They are a good precaution, but not giving them does not spell certain doom by any means. Keep an eye on her appetite and pay attention to the smell of her discharge. She'll start cleansing soon and will have red discharge on and off for the next couple of weeks. If it has a foul odor then you know she has an infection and you can start treating then. 

One of our first kiddings was a difficult one. I had a kid presenting with head back. His feet had already come part way out and I had to push them back in to reach the head. The doe was getting up and down and moving so my arm kept getting shoved in and out after it had been on the floor. I had to reach in up to my elbow to find the head and bring it round. The second kid came out head-first with no feet, and his head was covered with straw and muck when I had to shove it back so I could find the legs. No telling how much nasty gunk was inside that poor doe by the time we were finished! Being a rookie, I never thought to put her on antibiotics. The gunk was stuck to the amniotic sacs and came out with the kids, and then she expelled everything else with the afterbirth so I thought nothing of it. In spite of it all, she never developed an infection, and she kidded with no problems the next year. If your goat his healthy, her own immune system will do its job and she should be fine.


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## emmaandoscar (Jan 20, 2013)

Thanks Damfino. She seems to be doing fine. Has a good appetite. She has been having the discharge which I know is normal after giving birth, just like it is for us human women. She is getting back to her "Queen of the herd-ornery-ways" so I think she's gonna be just fine. I'll keep an eye on the discharge. I am just praying that the next doe that kids doesn't have any issues. I need a happy outcome this next time. Seems like I am reading a ton of stories like mine...so many birthing problems with kids being born dead and does having problems. Geez....I thought this stuff was more on the rarer side, but apparently it isn't. I am wondering what the percentage is of normal deliveries vs. mispositioned kids and kids being born dead. My does are all mini's and seems it's much harder to get inside them to "fix" kids positions as there is little room in there to maneuver them. Do you know how big the newborn kids should be? The kids Emma had were really tiny. Couldn't have been more than 2 lbs. if that. They seemed so small and she still had trouble.

Thanks for all the information. It sure helps hearing from those of you that are experienced. Carol


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Forums like these make normal births seem like a rare occurrence! But that's because people post here when they have problems, and of course the problem threads are also the ones people are drawn to more than the simple birth announcements. Look into selenium deficiency as a potential cause of birthing problems. This is not something I experience in my selenium-rich neck of the woods, but it seems related to a lot of birthing problems elsewhere. 

I don't know what mini birth weights should be, but 2 lbs. seems low to me too. The only good thing about a difficult or tragic birth is that it is an opportunity to learn a lot in a short time. Hopefully the things you learn from this experience will prevent other kidding problems in the future. Try not to worry. Most births are joyous occasions.


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## GoatCrazy01 (Feb 14, 2016)

Nigerian Dwarf kids are normally around 3lbs, but I've seen them as big as 5 or so lbs. Especially if there are multiples they can be small like that.


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

I do agree with your vet on the overuse of antibiotics. But also - my vet has told me that if there is reason to be concerned and no other options - giving the antibiotic will not hurt them if they don't really need it. (Did I word that right?) I trust him totally and he knows me and my animals very well. 
For you - if several people were touching your girl I would probably medicate. If not keep a close eye on her - check her temp often. 
My girls have 2-3 lb babies most often. I think 4 is big. Mine are Nigerians.


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## GoatCrazy01 (Feb 14, 2016)

I just checked my ND kids' weights and they were 3lbs and 3.4lbs last year. 

I agree with wndngrvr.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

My ND kids are usually 3.5-5 pounds


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