# Help, possible CL lump?



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Since I've never dealt with CL are the lumps usually hard? My Nubian doe Mitzi I discovered a lump right above her left leg to the side and it's hard. I'm going to do some more investigating here in a bit... I'm hoping it's not...;( I didn't have much time in the morning to look at it much...Thanks!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

pictures please and x fingers its not...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

a picture would be good...is that the back leg or front leg? Do not try to lance it or open it in any way...hard is not ready not matter what kind of lump it is ...here is a 
link to show common CL sights...

http://goat-link.com/content/view/101/96/#.U31lypRdV2A

dont panic ...it could be anything...one step at a time!! and as tdg said ..fingers crossed

Best wishes


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Oh I hope not!!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Pics tomorrow, as I forgot my phone in the house. It's really hard, so I don't think it is a CL lump. It's on the left front leg, and it is one of the sites of CL, but it's as hard as a rock.. She definitely is not showing any signs given on the site you have me, nope she is healthy, energetic, & playful. I'll take some pics in the AM. Yep, hoping, praying & crossing my fingers that it's not. I was going to wait to do testing this year until November, so all my newbies including my rescue buckling would be old enough to test, but I think I'm going to do it sooner..


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks guys!;-)


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

CL starts hard....once its soft its ready to burst...:-|


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

happybleats said:


> CL starts hard....once its soft its ready to burst...:-|


;-( I hope not......


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

Jingles that its not!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

fingers crossed!!!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Okay, here are some pics. Not sure if you can tell there are lumps. There is actually 2 close together. Getting testing set up ASAP. I tried to do it myself a few weeks ago, but I freaked out...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Is that the armpit area? If so, that is where a lot of people give CD& T vaccine, which can cause abscesses there. I know mine get them after the shot.
Some are very small while others are bigger depending on reaction.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

looks like it could be CL...right location and shape...but you really need to wait to test until its ready to clean...if you invade the cyst too soon, while hard you can cause infection....she is safe to run with the herd for a while..check the lump daily...once it begins to loose hair and soften..she will need to be quarantined, then you can pull a sample while you clean the cyst out..



YES Pam..didnt think of that...could be injection cyst...same protocol..wait to test until soft : )


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I was thinking of taking blood tests... Would I not be able to tell from that? Also, is it safe to drink her milk? I'm guessing so and she is my favorite doe to milk...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

unless she has CL in the udder, you can drink the milk. 

yes you can test the blood..it will only tell you if the animal has been exposed to CL...but its a place to start...: ) sorry I mis understood...


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

need a picture of the location more so then the abscess. Cant tell where on the body that is.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> need a picture of the location more so then the abscess. Cant tell where on the body that is.


I'll get more pics when I get home


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Here they are. On the second pic, it's right next to Smith's (sheep) ear right below the tip of his ear. There is actually 2 of them, and they are not right in the armpit area. At what point would she start acting sick if it is CL? Curious? I'm scheduling testing next week...thanks guys.... I really hope it's not, she is my favorite doe to milk, and I'm rather attached....


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Pics...right;-)


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

With the sheep it is possible to be CL, typical spot.

Look at this pic, this area circled is considered the armpit area, anywhere in that area shots are given. It is located behind the front leg.
Not in the actual armpit like a human.

CD&T shots are given there, by many breeders, has this goat had any shots there. Have you had this goat long or get her semi recently?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I've had her since October, and I haven't give any shots, she's due for a CDT in August I believe. Are sheep carriers of CL? They tested clean last year.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

That is a typical vaccination abscess location. At that same level in front of the leg is a CL location. Vaccination abscess are also most often harder then a CL abscess. Most of the time they dont get big enough to pop and eventually just go away. If you need help drawing blood, I might be able to head down to Dayton to do some fishing and do a little side trip and stop by to do it . You will need to download the forum off the WADDL site if I am not mistaken. Ill have to chat with the other half and see if we have enough supplies. How many of them would you wanna do if I can make it play out?

Yes, sheep can get CL and CAE as well. (Though its called OPPV in sheep)


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Yes, I just sent blood into WADDL. You fill out a form and send with the blood, and they'll send back the results with an invoice.

Plateau Vet in our area has all of the supplies including tubes. I could come help, but I've only drawn blood a couple times so I'm not sure I'd be the best one to learn from.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm curious too now Happybleats... at Dave...., I have 10 adults including sheep. I'm actually considering doing the 3 little ones including my little rescue buckling that came to me last Friday, at least I would know a bit more about his mom. I was going to call Plateau Vets tomorrow to see what they had as far as supplies...and to see if there are any vet techs in the area... I can give shots I just get freaked out with the drawing of blood. Thanks all!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I am going to try to get a hold of the lady that helped me last year, so I will let you all know. The sooner the better I'm thinking.;-)


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

well I deleted my question lol..didnt want to high jack but let me try it again..lol

Isnt CL and CAE (OPPV) although similar but breed specific? Or is it just CAE? I know Deer have a form but its called something else as well...I read CAE and OPPV can not be carried to other breeds..meaning sheep cant give OPPV to Goats and Goats cant give CAE to sheep, although some feel the exposer could increase chances??
?? Im not sure...lol..Im thinking out loud here...Guess I need to read...


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

CL is one disease and can be transmitted between species, including humans.

Plateau has virtually everything you could ever want, OTC or Rx. It's like a candy shop for farmers


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

When they jump from one species to another they mutate a bit and become something else. A goat can not have OPPV and a sheep can not have CAE. Although very very close, the mutation gives them a new classification.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

happybleats said:


> well I deleted my question lol..didnt want to high jack but let me try it again..lol
> 
> Isnt CL and CAE (OPPV) although similar but breed specific? Or is it just CAE? I know Deer have a form but its called something else as well...I read CAE and OPPV can not be carried to other breeds..meaning sheep cant give OPPV to Goats and Goats cant give CAE to sheep, although some feel the exposer could increase chances??
> ?? Im not sure...lol..Im thinking out loud here...Guess I need to read...


I have read a lot of sites because I do have some cl positive goats and did NOT want to give it to the cows. Any ways from what I have read it doesn't jump from species to species. But they have their own kind of 'cl' ......like for horses it's strangles and I for get what it's called for cows but they have their on cl type. So unless what I have read is won't they can not transfer......but I have no idea about sheep since they are more alike then horses and cows.

Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks Guys...: )


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Those are different diseases. CL is zoonotic and CAN BE TRANSMITTED between species - horses, cows, and people as well as sheep and goats.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

happybleats said:


> Isnt CL breed specific?


According to what I've read, no, CL isn't breed specific. Sheep and goats can pass it to each other. Whether CL can be passed to horses depends on what web site you are reading - some say yes, some say no.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Huh?? Well, I'm hoping to get a hold of the lady that helped me. She did it this year too but unfortunately it never made it to Biotracking but she only did CAE, so hopefully she will answer me soon... I HOPE it's not CL, it is 2 lumps... In the mean time I continue to pray it's not, if I don't hear from her, I'll call Plateau vets, to see if they do that sort of thing, and at the very least get the prices on the equipment I need, and then ask Wild Hearts to come and help;-) I will keep an eye on it... I know one of my Nubian/Lamancha does I used to own one girl got lumps like that once but within a week it went away, and no hair loss nothing... Same spot too... So here is hoping ALL will fine....;-) Thanks all.... Next question how would you proceed if she positive....?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Next question how would you proceed if she positive....?


you can choose to do a few things.....you can get her through this lump..give a second chance, some goats never have a repeat....or cull her and cut your loss...
as long as it doesn't burst on your property..or controlled...you can lance, clean and let it heal...then keep a close watch on her..


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Cull. If it was CAE I would just pull and bottle feed, but CL is extremely infectious and it's not worth the risk to the rest of the herd. It can live in the soil if one bursts even if she's quarantined.

Plateau has two vets on staff, no techs. It's a $40 visit if you haul in plus the blood test costs more through them - the vials and needles are cheap. But for lancing and testing the abscess itself I'd have them do it.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I was afraid of the cull part;( If she is positive it will probably be best to cull her but she is my favorite doe to milk, and she's my only purebred registrable doe. She used to annoy me, but she is a doll now, and a very good girl on the milk stand.

If this lady doesn't call me back, could you help me Wild Hearts?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I can sell you a goat!  Lol. Yeah, if you can get me some gas money I could come over.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

No problem on the gas money;-)


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

janeen128 said:


> In the mean time I continue to pray it's not,


I doubt that it's CL. I've never had a goat develop 2 CL abscesses, it is behind the shoulder not in front of the shoulder, the vast majority of first time CL abscesses develop under the ear, and the lumps are a lot smaller than a typical CL abscess. Given the location, I would almost be willing to bet she laid on a sticker or thorn, or picked up splinters from rubbing on something. By all means, have it tested - but I think you're going to find out it isn't CL.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Sheep and goats are close enough related that CAE/OPPV can pass between them. Lots of case studies to read on the net.

And as for CL, it can be pass onto any number of different animals. Cows, horses, camels and even birds.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

They have already gone down some, to where I thought they were gone... Huh? So I doubt it is CL, will test everyone ASAP though....;-) As soon as I get the testing supplies Wild Heart we can schedule a time...;-) I doubt I'm going to hear from the lady I have help me for the fact the tests didn't make it in to Biotracking, and I paid her to shear my sheep, however she didn't do it that day, and she hasn't come back, and I haven't heard from her. I hope she is okay, but I doubt I'll hear from her again;-(


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I have shears, but I've never done sheep.

I don't know if Plateau will be open on Monday cuz of the holiday, you might want to go today.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I now have shears too, my neighbor gave me his...


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Won't be able to go today;-( I have to work until 4:30 and be at my church by 7pm.... I'll call to see when their hrs are..


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Śo the lady who helped mr last year finally got in touch with me. I'll be sending everything in this time, so I'll send yours in as well Wild Hearts if you want.. She's coming out Monday at 12:00... The lumps are the same size, they are not getting softer or harder, so here's hoping and praying;-)


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Oh, drat; I didn't get a tube because I thought you were going through the vet! But it wouldn't be worth driving out there just to hand it to you anyway. It's the doe who's sick so I'll see how she does.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Okay, so does CL lumps move when they are hard? Couldn't find that info anywhere.... In checking her today I could move them around like balls? Not far mind you. She is still acting normal, a bit sad since her buckling kid left yesterday...., but eating, milking, pooping peeing is ALL okay...


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I can't answer that question. Anytime my girls developed an abscess I've always known it was CL from the location, and had no reason to investigate it. Sorry.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No, they don't move, they are inside the lymph glands which are firmly attached...


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

^^^ correct

This is also why its most likely not CL. Ive never known of a lymph gland being behind the front leg.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, in that case I'm feeling more confident that it isn't CL. I'll know more when the blood tests come back... Maybe they are bug bites that turned into knots, or briars... They are smaller than when I first noticed them too.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks guys!! I'll let you know;-) If all come back negative, then I'll test the little kids in November, and close my herd for a few years...;-) Do you guys recommend testing every year with a closed herd? Curious?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Most of the diseases take time to build up in a goats system before they can be measured and or rise above a false positive level. The longer a goat is infected the higher things like teeter counts will be. So ya, its always a good thing to test at least once a year. This was our first year not testing twice. We tested this spring right before we started kidding.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yep, and the buckling you want? His sire and dam tested CAE negative in July 2013. If you want the paper, let me know.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

He'll get tested with the rest of the kids in November, so really no need for that. Hopefully I'll be able to draw blood tomorrow, with this lady showing me and coaching me, and be able to do them myself in November with a friends help holding them, then I can figure out a time each year and do it myself...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Looks like Dave does his before kidding. I do mine before breeding so I can decide if the doe is worth messing with bottle babies. My herd has been closed for years though, the only thing I do is the pack goat rendies. There's very little danger there if you're keeping control of your animals.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

We prefer that time cause of the stress of pregnancy and because we pool the milk from many does, its just an added precaution.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Hmm, I was told that the pregnancy hormones can cause a false negative...20 years ago. I think that the Bio-tracking tests are better then the old ones though. 
I was proud of last year 0.00% 

We do what we can, it's not perfect.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, I'll just do after all the kiddos are here, just to put another option in there;-)


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Never had a false positive testing before kidding. So must be better testing.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm shooting for fall as well since the kids will be of age then. Plus since my bucks will be available for stud I'm guessing it would be good to have recent tests to show on them, since I'll want proof on all outside does.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, I'm doing my herd now, and then my 2 doelings, my rescue buckling (not sure if I'm going to wether him or not) the buckling I'm hopefully getting from Goathiker (pending test results today) and possibly a doeling from her too....although I'm already swimming in milk...


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I got blood on all my kids today... I freaked out and didn't do it though... I will learn how one of these days... Now for filling out the forms and mailing it in..., then waiting for the results..... Hoping and praying for the best;-) The lady who helped me said that she was 99% sure it wasn't CL on Mitzi, and that it might just be some milk cyst, or briars... Still sending in blood for CAE, Johnes, and CL for every adult here..


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm getting the results tomorrow;-) I can't wait....., I'm hoping, praying for a clean herd!!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Everyone is negative for everything;-)


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## NoahEm (Sep 19, 2013)

That's great news!! Congrats  


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good to hear.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yahoooo!!!:clap:


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