# Study shows goats have emotions ... Duh!



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

This kind of thing just makes me mad. I see this article on the news about how there was a study done that showed that goats can detect the emotions of other goats by what they sound like. Yeah! Obviously! You thought that if a goat was screaming it's head off the other goats would have no idea what it was feeling? And then it's a big enough research project that it gets a headline on the news. Ugh... the stupidity of these people.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle...mplex-social-lives/ar-AAE7Vsv?ocid=spartanntp


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

I know right? all animals have emotions, just ask a lile' dog who hates water if he wants a bath:rungoat: wes out of there!


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

There are a huge amount of people who still view livestock as "dumb animals." This video is a good teaching tool to shed some insight for the skeptics and others whom aren't aware vocal languages exsist between animals.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Aha there was a video? I shall have to copy the link for future watching!

Oh, was there not a ***** philosopher, who claimed that if a dog screams when immobilized by nails through the ears into the table, it is merely a chirpring (word ...?) of a machine ...

I have noticed that some ***** people enjoy being able to cause suffering. Some of them go to University. (and some of them become Führers.)

But maybe I am reading in too much out of what you wrote, not being able to watch the film.


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## whitejerabias (May 6, 2019)

Sometimes I wish they didn't, lol. Like today when I was late for breakfast and milking. 

In my effort not to judge others for simply not knowing and caring about the things I do (for I know that I, too, can be harshly judged) I would like to applaud this study for whom it is going to reach, but it makes me so sad. Our bratty milker kicks for everyone, but me. Even today when I was over an hour late to milk, she didn't kick. The difference: I sing to her the whole time.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Yes, I am appalled when I see films of fainting goats falling, struggling, being scared, calling out for help - and in the background there is LAUGHTER!!! *devil's smiley* *extremely angry smiley*

If this study can help some people understand something, then it is good.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> Aha there was a video? I shall have to copy the link for future watching!
> 
> Oh, was there not a ***** philosopher, who claimed that if a dog screams when immobilized by nails through the ears into the table, it is merely a chirpring (word ...?) of a machine ...
> 
> ...


In the video they tested the heart rates of goats to determine whether the heart beats sped up or slowed down depending on which type of goat vocal sounds they heard. Noticing how the heart rate changed during the vocal sounds, they determined goats could communicate with each other.

In my opinion, all animals can communicate one way or the other with each other.

I whole hearted believe with an understanding of body language and vocal sounds a person can read the unspoken languages of animals. I also believe animals can read a human's vocal language, tone used and our body language. In this way, animals and humans can communicate with each other on a certain level.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh yes, all domisticated (?) animals can communicate with us, and reverse. I lately heard of a way to communicate used by trees in a forest, using fungi! Sorry I am not able to link, do not remember where I learnt about it.

I do not expect anyone to believe that it is possible to get messages from one's beloved animals from a distance, but people who actually have animals of their own, seldom get surprised when I mention it.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

It astounds me to think that people are so far removed from animals that they don't know whether they have emotions. It's a sad commentary on the "citification" of the human species. 

The packgoat people are currently fighting bans in public land all over the west as FS and BLM plans change. The reason is because the Wild Sheep Foundation has convinced the government that domestic animals are to blame for bighorn sheep die-offs. While there is some relationship between domestic animal diseases and bighorn sickness, there is also a lot of mystery as to why certain bighorns thrive while carrying the very same pathogens that other wild sheep die from. A whole big, healthy herd on Antelope Island in the Great Salt Lake just died en masse in 2017 after thriving there for 2-3 decades. No domestic animals are on the island or anywhere near it, yet the bighorns had a fatal pneumonia outbreak and died. The few that were still lingering were killed off to pave the way for introducing a new healthy herd. Officials are mystified how this could have happened, but something stood out to me. 

This isn't the only time a healthy herd has been struck with illness following the capture and relocation of some of their members. Zion National Park's herd also got sick after healthy animals were removed. Thankfully that outbreak was not so devastating and most of the bighorns recovered. One of the biggest problems is lamb recruitment (survival) after one of these outbreaks. It often takes years before lamb recruitment goes back to its normal rate. 

I believe the animals in both these cases had been captured, collared, and heavily researched throughout their existence, so why would removing herd members be any different than a normal research roundup? My husband very astutely pointed out that removing certain animals (especially females) from a herd is going to totally alter the social structure of that herd. If bighorn sheep are anything like goats, then the herds are organized into matriarchies, so removing females has a direct impact on the entire herd structure. I wonder if the emotional stress of losing several females all at once can trigger an immune response crisis and subsequent disease outbreak. As the disease takes its toll, even more females will be lost and the structure crumbles even further. If that matriarchal structure is important for lamb rearing, then we would expect lamb recruitment to suffer for years afterward. 

I know that when my goats have young kids, the mamas all take turns watching the group of babies while the others go out to graze. This gives all the mamas some baby-free time to look after their own needs. It also gives kids a chance to rest rather than having to doggedly follow after the herd at a young age. Older mamas are also key to helping young mamas learn how to care for their young. If a capture or disease event removes too many of the older females, the younger ones may not be as successful at raising their young. I wonder if any of our researchers take animal emotions into account when meddling with the wild herds.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Damfino What you say resonates with me. As you know, I've been selling over the last year and have almost competely sold everyone off. Almost. The last 2 sells were particularly destructive to herd structure and dynamics. In the space of a week and a half I went from having 15 adults to having 4 adults. Almost all of these adults were females and some females did leave young behind.

The 4 adults and the kids I have left are now, JUST now, coming back together as a herd. They were stressed and discombobulated and very much looking to me to be the leader. No new goats were introduced, only goats taken, so everyone knew one another and had relationships before, but suddenly it was as if they were separate units.

I did have sickness and stress, even though I did all I could think of to ensure proper nutrition and schedules.

I'm so glad that after 2 months, they are starting to act as a regular herd again. This has been QUITE the education. I have a mature buck, and older doe, 2 junior does, and kids.

If I hadn't been here to hold everything together, I can see everyone succombing to something or other.

I completely believe your ideas on this.


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## Chelsey (Dec 7, 2018)

Yes I can do that QAQ is the jjjkjjnn. Muwah was a huge Ip


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Those who are interested in the communication of trees should read The Seeds of Hope by Debbie Tremel. 
Anyone can feel the energy of any other living thing with a little practice.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

Damfino you sead it perfectly, now if more people would just listen...


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

So shortly after I made my previous post, I spoke to Dr. Jace Taylor who works for the Utah Division of Wildlife. He was the one overseeing developments with the Antelope Island herd, and I told him my thoughts. He thought it was interesting and admitted that herd social dynamics was not something they considered as a stressor that could trigger disease events. We had a pretty long conversation so I hope it will give him something to think about for future bighorn sheep meetings. When they round up bighorns, he admitted that they take whatever they can catch with no regard for whether those particular animals are vital to the herd structure. This is something he said they can't even know. 

I pointed out that if sometimes they take away "pillars of the herd" vs. more peripheral animals, then this could mean some capture events may result in serious disease outbreaks, some in less serious, and others in no disease outbreaks at all. You wouldn't necessarily see a pattern because the people involved in the captures have no clue as to the significance of the animals they are removing. Scientists need to stop looking at animals as non-sentient lab specimens and realize that these are living, breathing creatures with social lives and emotional needs all their own.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

EXACTLY!!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Damfino said:


> He thought it was interesting and admitted that herd social dynamics was not something they considered as a stressor that could trigger disease events.


ops2:

No one should be allowed to be an animal researcher without having had animals...:bookgoat:



Damfino said:


> We had a pretty long conversation


:goodjob:


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Those who are interested in the communication of trees should read The Seeds of Hope by Debbie Tremel.
> Anyone can feel the energy of any other living thing with a little practice.


One of my favourite documentaries is "What Plants Talk About" I found the chemical interactions and responses as revealed by scientific instruments fascinating and eye opening.

It wasn't nearly as trite as the title makes it sound, for those who are put off by that.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

I am going to put in todays experience because it has much to do with goats emotions. 

I had to take 3 babies away from mamma today (one at a time to make things less stressful for mamma) to give them a bath. I gave them one outside, they could still see each other but they were so far apart. They were both screaming for each other, and with me holding the babies, i could feel their little hearts beating really fast. Both mamma and babies were trying to get to each other. But when i let babies go with mamma, mamma would let them nurse, and it calmed both mamma and babies down soo much. All animals have an emotional bond with their babies, siblings, mothers, and herd mates. 
I have one goat, cricket who is pipers baby from last year. The day before Piper went into labor this year, Cricket wouldnt leave her side. She new her mamma wasnt feeling good, and wanted to help her. Cricket stood guard while Piper ate, she wouldnt let anybody close to her mom because they are both low on the queen chain and Cricket took really harsh beatings just to protect her mamma. Cricket groomed Piper, she slept next to her and she talked to her and gave piper company.Cricket even helped clean her siblings, and kept all the other goats away from them until I could separate Piper, then I had to bring Cricket in their with her mom and sibling so she could see them. It was the sweetest thing I have ever seen in my life. 

All i can say to animal scientist is shame on you


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I just don't understand how these people get to this high in their fields without having an intimate knowledge of animals in general. I mean come on. How do you even want to study animals without ever having had any interactions with them. It doesn't take but a few moments sometimes to relies animals are not mindless. Even wild ones! There is a show on animal planet right now it's called "The Zoo" and it is such a great show that really shows people the level of intelligence and emotion that animals have. Just last week I watched an episode where they had what's called a bear cat doing class room work and this thing had a relationship with it's keeper like it was a pet cat. Just look up what these things look like. You really wouldn't guess it.

There just must be people that go there entire lives without contact with animals. The biggest evidence I found of this was once when I was visiting a zoo I overheard a conversation a couple was having. The boyfriend pointed out the male lion and his girlfriend asked him: how do you know that that is a male? 
mg:


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Yep, it's pretty obvious if you have goats!

One of the saddest but most memorable things I have seen was years ago when we did not know what we were doing. Looking back a lot of our goats were dying due to parasites/severe mineral deficiency.

A goat who was a few months old was leading his dying friend (born at the same time) down the "goat trail" (you know the little paths they make in the grass). The rest of the herd had gone ahead but he would stop, look back and wait for the other. He did this repeatedly.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

In my opinion, no animal is stupid. I just think everything is smart in its own way. Nobody/nothing thinks the same way. Not even people. But every species knows their language, and every species has their own emotions. All domesticated animals rely on their humans to provide care and comfort. Goats understand human emotion too. If you ever try to milk a goat while you are angry, or frustrated, or anything, the goat will act the same way. If you go out there angry your goat is going to be kicking the milk pail. But what I don't understand is why OTHER people don't understand other animals emotions. It fascinates me. We spend as much time with our goats as our goats spend with us. That is why we know when one of us is in a bad, sad, or happy mood. And then there are those people who have no real knowledge of animals at all, only knowledge that comes out of a text book.

Another recent experience i had was in Arizona in the mountains. We were driving by the highway, and there were 2 bull elk and 3 cow elk in a little grass lot. We were the first ones to pull into the drive and we were just sitting in the truck watching. Then 4-5 other cars pull up and got out to try to get selfies with the elk! You could tell they were getting paranoid, ears back, backing away, just staring at the people. The elk ended up running off, but I was SO angry.That was the first time i have ever seen an elk b/c we don't have those here in Texas. Why did they have to ruin everything for us just for a like on social media. The bigger bull of the two charged at a little girl, but thank God she jumped in the car in time. Some people just don't understand that there is a difference between a wild animal, and a domestic animal, And an elk out weighs you by A LOT and it can out run you by A LOT so you better watch your back, and be glad they weren't in rut, if they even know what that means! I ended up giving the kids parents a LONG lecture about wild animals, and being rude etc.. I was FUMING that day!!

So like i said no animal is stupid, just smart in its own way, and then there are people, ignorant, self absorbed people. Not talking about all people, because it doesn't apply to ALL people, but, it applies to A LOT of them. There are too many people with their head up their butt


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Don't hold, back, @Nigerian dwarf goat. Tell us what you REALLY think...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The bumblebees I accidentally disturbed this evening were quite emotional lol. 

I was reminded of Angie. She had her kids taken away at birth so she's been milked since then. Lately I've gotten kind of lazy and have been giving the milk to the chickens and filling one bottle in the evening for my togg kid. 
My daughter's goats and chickens are staying here while we get this house thing worked out. One of her little cockerels loves loves loves his goats milk. He stands at the rear of the stanchion waiting for his drink at 9:00 when everyone else is roosting.
Then when I start filling the bottle for my kid, yeah, Angie starts trying to kick my hand off. It's ok to share with me or the chickens but not that creepy eared goat.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

What a great thread I wish it could be posted where everyone that doesn’t have animal experience could read it. Horses have an important ranking as well so do wolves. It’s all very interesting to learn about the body language of one to another and how subtle they can speak. With one flick of an ear or one side of a lip curled, even a head drop can mean something to the rest of the herd. If they were stupid and had no emotion how would they understand that? They understand fear, flight, calm, excitement playfulness and peace all from their other herd mates. Especially elephant herds I never tire learning about them. A horse that is alone will try to be the herd leader of its owner if the owner doesn’t take the role. That’s an emotion. The people trying to take selfies with Elk doesn’t surprise me. My own emotions when it comes to animals and people can be all over the place. But education is key as we all know and some people simply don’t look for it. Now they will look for a photo opportunity to post!!! But they won’t use technology to simply learn. How easy is it to type in ANYTHING on you tube or google and at least try to find education. Pretty easy! But time after time I see people take the harder route which they think is the simple route and go without proper knowledge. I’ve been guilty of it as well in my younger years thinking I knew what I was doing with animals. Thank goodness I’ve learned more! Remember the people in the car in a park and the women got out to argue? I can’t remember the details so I’m probably getting it mixed up but a wild cat killed the mother? They were in a wild cat enclosure that you can drive through!!! Eyeyaaaeye! Some people just have no clue. But again drop me in a busy city and I have NO idea what to do. 

Dang sure I’d educate myself before I went though!


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

I would like to add as a side note horse flies cause me a great emotion:ahh:


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

This is an AWESOME thread. I just wanted to add that the Dumb in Dumb Animals was not originally the stupid dumb, but the mute dumb. As in without a voice. 

Ironically it was first used in a popular way by people trying to speak for them. Trying to raise awareness of animals' needs, because they could not speak for themselves. People sort of like... us.

No criticism, because language changes and that meaning of dumb has been all but lost. Just an irony, an LOL, and an FYI.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

One mistake people make by thinking animals might not have emotions, is that they have human emotions. They do not.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

mariarose said:


> No one should be allowed to be an animal researcher without having had animals...:bookgoat:


If only it were that easy! But even a lot of animal breeders don't think too hard about herd dynamics. We are accustomed to buying and selling animals as it suits our needs and not necessarily paying much attention to what it does to the animals sold or the ones remaining. Obviously our animals get over their emotional stress and life goes on. It doesn't usually cause devastating disease outbreaks in domestic herds.

But then, we also don't have to chase and corral our animals in nearly such stressful ways as they do in wild sheep captures, and we may also sell or retain certain animals with some regard for their place in the herd (not separating attached-at-the-hip twins or a devoted mother-daughter pair, for example).

Dr. Taylor mentioned in his bighorn sheep talk that captures usually result in ram-heavy populations since it's the ewes that are usually taken to populate other herds. Hunting can alleviate this, but I was thinking that before enough rams are eliminated, the situation could be very stressful for the animals. If you have too many rams fighting over too few ewes, and ewes getting chased by too many rams, it will cause stress for both sexes. I'll never forget watching a whitetail doe running frantically across the road with six bucks after her. She was wide-eyed and panting with her tongue out and I thought, "They need to sell more buck tags!"

I don't think they let the bighorn herds get _that_ unbalanced, but it does speak to the stress animals can go through when you have a male-heavy population. I don't know what the answer is because I think it's good that bighorns are being reintroduced to areas where they were killed off, but the scientists and officials need to be mindful of the possible serious consequences of their own actions when capturing these animals for research or relocation. It's not fair to blame everything on domestic livestock when there are so many other factors at play.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

elvis&oliver said:


> They understand fear, flight, calm, excitement playfulness and peace all from their other herd mates. Especially elephant herds I never tire learning about them.


Years ago I read a study about a change happening in the elephant herds in India. Elephants, which had existed alongside humans for centuries, were suddenly going rogue and trampling villages and attacking humans. It turned out that because all the older bulls had been poached for their tusks, the young males had no one to keep them in line or show them good examples of male behavior so they became destructive. Not only were they going after humans, but they were also attacking female elephants and their own young. It makes me think of all the young men in our society who are raised without fathers. Social structures are important for animals and humans alike!


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

Damfino said:


> Years ago I read a study about a change happening in the elephant herds in India. Elephants, which had existed alongside humans for centuries, were suddenly going rogue and trampling villages and attacking humans. It turned out that because all the older bulls had been poached for their tusks, the young males had no one to keep them in line and they became destructive. Not only were they going after humans, but they were also attacking females and their own young. It makes me think of all the young men in our society who are raised without fathers. Social structures are important for animals and humans alike!


Very true never thought of it that way! What a good point


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

elvis&oliver said:


> What a great thread I wish it could be posted where everyone that doesn't have animal experience could read it.


I was thinking about that last night! Maybe we can send this in to the news that had the head line!!! LOL


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

There's a video on utube of an elephant giving birth and resuscitating her own still born baby. 
Elephants will pull any animal out of mud~ even a young lion. 
Leg hold tethers, ear hooks, and exploited elephants were made illegal here in Oregon after one literary stuck her cruel trainer up her butt and suffocated him to death. The elephant was sent to a reintroduction program after being confiscated.


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## William&Keisha (Apr 7, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> Yes, I am appalled when I see films of fainting goats falling, struggling, being scared, calling out for help - and in the background there is LAUGHTER!!! *devil's smiley* *extremely angry smiley*
> 
> If this study can help some people understand something, then it is good.


I have to admit I use to think it was funny watching them faint till I got one of my own and it breaks my heart now when it happens to him.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

What a thread this has become!  So many interesting views.

If I try to sum up my thoughts, _maybe the urbanisation is a danger to our future, just as bad as pollution/climate changes_?

Sometimes I try to balance this by suggesting people to read more by Astrid Lindgren, our Swedish children's books author, who grew up at a traditional farm, surrounded by a loving family, and by lots of domestic animals.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Damfino said:


> I pointed out that if sometimes they take away "pillars of the herd" vs. more peripheral animals ...


Where are you, Jane Goodall and the rest?


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

mariarose said:


> ... the Dumb in Dumb Animals was not originally the stupid dumb, but the mute dumb. As in without a voice.


Odd, there has been a corresponding confusion in the Swedish language: Originally, _oskäliga djur_ were "animals without reasoning", that is don't weigh reasons for and against. This became _osjäliga djur_ with the very same pronunciation, "animals without soul" ...  (None of which is true, as we know.)


elvis&oliver said:


> One mistake people make by thinking animals might not have emotions, is that they have human emotions. They do not.


Here we are getting close to the question whether humans are animals. Legally there is a big difference (and probably it is best so), but biologically we are primates, mammals, pack animals. If we are a species among others on this planet, our features must be as similar or dissimilar to those of other species as theirs to one another's.

(Did I get my words right now ... )


William&Keisha said:


> I have to admit I use to think it was funny watching them faint till I got one of my own and it breaks my heart now when it happens to him.


And maybe when you again hear people _laugh_ at it... (headsmash):inloveheadsmash)

_(Edit: Better choice of words.)_


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Trollmor said:


> What a thread this has become!  So many interesting views.
> 
> If I try to sum up my thoughts, _maybe the urbanisation is a danger to our future, just as bad as pollution/climate changes_?
> 
> Sometimes I try to balance this by suggesting people to read more by Astrid Lindgren, our Swedish children's books author, who grew up at a traditional farm, surrounded by a loving family, and by lots of domestic animals.


Several seem to like this entry, so I started a new thread:

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/is-urbanisation-a-danger-to-our-future.207035/


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

This seemed an appropriate place to link this.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

mariarose said:


> This seemed an appropriate place to link this.


Very good! I am a dummie, I thought everyone knew animals had that intelligence and emotions to compare to ours.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

mariarose said:


> This seemed an appropriate place to link this.


Well worth listening to!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

whitejerabias said:


> Our bratty milker kicks for everyone, but me. Even today when I was over an hour late to milk, she didn't kick. The difference: I sing to her the whole time.


I wonder, if perhaps it is you as a person, not the singing? Have you tried to omit the singing, and ask your stand-in to try singing, preferably the same songs? * trying to stop being so scientific ... *


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

Damfino said:


> So shortly after I made my previous post, I spoke to Dr. Jace Taylor who works for the Utah Division of Wildlife. He was the one overseeing developments with the Antelope Island herd, and I told him my thoughts. He thought it was interesting and admitted that herd social dynamics was not something they considered as a stressor that could trigger disease events. We had a pretty long conversation so I hope it will give him something to think about for future bighorn sheep meetings. When they round up bighorns, he admitted that they take whatever they can catch with no regard for whether those particular animals are vital to the herd structure. This is something he said they can't even know.
> 
> I pointed out that if sometimes they take away "pillars of the herd" vs. more peripheral animals, then this could mean some capture events may result in serious disease outbreaks, some in less serious, and others in no disease outbreaks at all. You wouldn't necessarily see a pattern because the people involved in the captures have no clue as to the significance of the animals they are removing. Scientists need to stop looking at animals as non-sentient lab specimens and realize that these are living, breathing creatures with social lives and emotional needs all their own.


Hello Damfino. I haven't read all the threads in this post yet but I have to say I'm impressed that you are in a position to share your ideas, experience and critical thinking skills with those directly involved in research. How many times have I been advised to provide nutritional supplements during stressful events to prevent illness. Moving, shipping, kidding, and weaning; all indications for administering supplements on the labels of OTC preparations available at most feed stores. Goats are mammals therefore stress causes increased cortisol production leading to a compromised immune system. Thank you for pointing out social structure as an influential factor. Have the researchers never considered the studies based on long term observation of higher primates or any of BF Skinner's behavioral theories based on animal behavior and responses that have been generalized to human beings? Kudos!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Well, I'm not actually in any kind of "position." I'm just a normal member of the public, but I have a deep, vested interest in these matters because I pack with goats. There is currently a proposed ban on packgoats in the Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre, and Gunnison National Forest plan in southwest Colorado, which is where I grew up. They claim that packgoats are a disease risk for bighorn sheep. Unfortunately, we keep going through this same, tired song and dance routine every time a National Forest or BLM area changes its management plan. Goats are no more a disease risk than cattle or horses, but someone has to be the "scapegoat" so the government can appease the Wild Sheep Foundation without going up against the cattle and sheep ranchers or backcountry horsemen. It seems like packgoats have become the "sacrificial lamb" in the eyes of the officials. 

The only reason I'm in touch with any of these researchers is because I get on the phone and call them. I look up the district, forest, or park where they work, call the main office, then ask for the person's phone number. I don't have these people's ear or any special schooling or research background, but that doesn't mean I can't share my thoughts on an issue that is important to both them and me. I don't want to see bighorn sheep die any more than they do, but that doesn't mean I'll let goats take the blame for a problem they aren't causing. 

Unfortunately, the Wild Sheep Foundation seems to have an axe to grind and there is a lot of politics and personal history involved that has nothing whatever to do with science. The sad thing is that the Wild Sheep Foundation has a lot of money, power, influence, and an excellent propaganda machine. They have the government's ear and right now they have a score to settle with the North American Packgoat Association. That's a whole other long story that I won't go into. Suffice to say that there is a lot more than science that goes into some of these land use decisions. Politics is alive and well!


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

Damfino said:


> Well, I'm not actually in any kind of "position." I'm just a normal member of the public, but I have a deep, vested interest in these matters because I pack with goats. There is currently a proposed ban on packgoats in the Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre, and Gunnison National Forest plan in southwest Colorado, which is where I grew up. They claim that packgoats are a disease risk for bighorn sheep. Unfortunately, we keep going through this same, tired song and dance routine every time a National Forest or BLM area changes its management plan. Goats are no more a disease risk than cattle or horses, but someone has to be the "scapegoat" so the government can appease the Wild Sheep Foundation without going up against the cattle and sheep ranchers or backcountry horsemen. It seems like packgoats have become the "sacrificial lamb" in the eyes of the officials.
> 
> The only reason I'm in touch with any of these researchers is because I get on the phone and call them. I look up the district, forest, or park where they work, call the main office, then ask for the person's phone number. I don't have these people's ear or any special schooling or research background, but that doesn't mean I can't share my thoughts on an issue that is important to both them and me. I don't want to see bighorn sheep die any more than they do, but that doesn't mean I'll let goats take the blame for a problem they aren't causing.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Wild Sheep Foundation seems to have an axe to grind and there is a lot of politics and personal history involved that has nothing whatever to do with science. The sad thing is that the Wild Sheep Foundation has a lot of money, power, influence, and an excellent propaganda machine. They have the government's ear and right now they have a score to settle with the North American Packgoat Association. That's a whole other long story that I won't go into. Suffice to say that there is a lot more than science that goes into some of these land use decisions. Politics is alive and well!


I must say this masked me sad. I should have known from the sloppy (biased) research that political issues were involved. I'm proud of you for making yourself heard. While reading your post, I wondered about the deer population as well. I honestly thought sheep and deer were as likely to contribute to cross species diseases. In fact, one might think that large herds of sheep would not be as well managed and cared for as pack goats. It just makes sense to me that pack goat owners invest a great deal of time and money to keep these animals healthy. I hope you keep up the good fight.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm not on their side, so please don't get me wrong. But I think the idea behind the pack goats being more dangerous than deer or sheep is the fact they are brought in from wherever, whenever. The same deer are going to be in the area, so they aren't bringing in strange bugs, and sheep aren't known for being strangers in town either. The herds travel around a bit, yes. but not from clear from another State.

When we traveled with our oxen and our horses, we had to have a vet inspection and State issued travel papers from each State we were traveling to, and each year it got more and more strict. There were some we stopped going to simply because of how difficult and expensive the vet papers were getting.

This wasn't because of some inherent danger from oxen and horses, but because they were coming in from "away" and potentially carrying serious issues, such as strains of diseases, such as Brucellosis, that were different from what the normal population had been exposed to.

So, that's my thoughts on that concern anyway.

And of course, any well meaning concern can be used for ill purposes as a shield to hide behind.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

We already offered to have current Mycoplasma tests and put radio tracking collars on our goats. They don't bend a bit. We're perfectly willing to meet them more than halfway.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Well, as I said, I'm not on their side. I was offering a difference between the goats, and the deer/sheep herds mentioned above, and that it was being used in bad faith.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Domestic sheep herds often travel in from other states. For example, it was the Idaho Woolgrowers that sued Shoshone NF in Wyoming when they stopped selling grazing allotments. Some of these grazing areas have been used every summer by the same families since the time when these states were only territories. It has also been proven that domestic and wild sheep very easily share diseases between them while goats, being an entirely different species, do not. Also, any goats traveling across state lines are required by state law to have a veterinary health inspection. 

I'd love to believe this was all a misguided effort to protect bighorns that could easily be corrected through education, but unfortunately there are people involved who have grudges, and others who are influenced by people with big money who don't want anyone but themselves to have access. This same thing happened to llama packers back in the nineties even though llamas, being camelids, pose about zero threat to bighorns. It turns out the horse outfitters felt threatened by competition from llamas and were pressuring the FS to ban llamas under the pretense of protecting bighorns when really they were only protecting their own pockets.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

mariarose said:


> And of course, any well meaning concern can be used for ill purposes as a shield to hide behind.


Happens only too often!

Are transporters also controlled? Do we remember the Foot and Mouth in England? Why did it spread all over the country? Because a dealer transported some poor sick innocent sheep all over the country, before the disease was discovered!


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

I’m just a fan of good scientific research, which this doesn’t appear to be.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm a big fan of good scientific research too, which is why it makes me so angry when we find falsified reports that have been paid for by people with an agenda. The North American Packgoat Association had to use the Freedom of Information Act to gain access to the actual data obtained in a goat/bighorn pneumonia study conducted at WSU. An inside researcher tipped us off that the conclusion written up in the peer reviewed study did not quite reflect the actual data. It turned out the results had been exaggerated and vital information had been left out. The researcher was being paid by the Wild Sheep Foundation. I guess they wanted certain results. It's horrible when research gets tainted by politics. The "insider" who tipped us off has since been smeared and defamed by the Wild Sheep Foundation and some of their biologists in retaliation for blowing the whistle. What ugly games some of these people play! 

In the meantime, I'm hoping to get more involved in the Colorado bighorn working group so I can meet some of these people and help them understand that we goat packers also care deeply about the bighorns (and other wildlife). We would like to see the herds thrive. Going after goats and llamas is nothing more than a red herring that wastes everyone's time and resources while bighorns continue to die off from other causes. I think they need to hear from people who are interested in a more wholistic approach to bighorn management. It's not just about exposure to germs. Exposure to germs is a constant part of life and a part of natural evolutionary processes that bighorns, like other creatures, are equipped to deal with if they have healthy immune systems. Pathogens are only fatal in certain bighorn herds and not in others, so it's important to figure out why. 

With animals as intensely studied and closely managed as bighorns, it's quite possible that human meddling is a far bigger factor in their health than exposure to germs. It's important for biologists to realize that keeping bighorns isolated from pathogens is not a viable long-term strategy, given the fact that it's impossible to closely control the movements of wild animals and germs. It might be a good stop gap measure to keep newly transplanted herds safe while they establish themselves in a new environment, but we can't realistically shut these animals off from the rest of the world for eternity. Not only is it not possible, it's not healthy in the long term.


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## whitejerabias (May 6, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> I wonder, if perhaps it is you as a person, not the singing? Have you tried to omit the singing, and ask your stand-in to try singing, preferably the same songs? * trying to stop being so scientific ... *


Well, you are probably right and they don't kick me as much (at all), even when I am talking with someone else. But I do also, talk with them and address them individually as opposed to simply talking ABOUT them. But I'm telling you, Lady Harriet's behavior is markedly different when I sing "The Lady in Red" by Chris deBurgh.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Damfino said:


> ... had to use the Freedom of Information Act to gain access to the actual data ...


Do you have an Act for that? = a law? Here, it is in the Constitution.


whitejerabias said:


> ... talk with them and address them individually as opposed to simply talking ABOUT them.


Yes, we gladly talk _about_ our animals, gladly talk _to_ them, but most gladly we talk _with_ them!


whitejerabias said:


> Lady Harriet's behavior is markedly different when I sing "The Lady in Red" by Chris deBurgh.


And if others sing the same song when trying to milk her?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> Do you have an Act for that? = a law? Here, it is in the Constitution.


Yup, we had an act for that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_(United_States)


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Thank you!


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

Damfino said:


> I'm a big fan of good scientific research too, which is why it makes me so angry when we find falsified reports that have been paid for by people with an agenda. The North American Packgoat Association had to use the Freedom of Information Act to gain access to the actual data obtained in a goat/bighorn pneumonia study conducted at WSU. An inside researcher tipped us off that the conclusion written up in the peer reviewed study did not quite reflect the actual data. It turned out the results had been exaggerated and vital information had been left out. The researcher was being paid by the Wild Sheep Foundation. I guess they wanted certain results. It's horrible when research gets tainted by politics. The "insider" who tipped us off has since been smeared and defamed by the Wild Sheep Foundation and some of their biologists in retaliation for blowing the whistle. What ugly games some of these people play!
> 
> In the meantime, I'm hoping to get more involved in the Colorado bighorn working group so I can meet some of these people and help them understand that we goat packers also care deeply about the bighorns (and other wildlife). We would like to see the herds thrive. Going after goats and llamas is nothing more than a red herring that wastes everyone's time and resources while bighorns continue to die off from other causes. I think they need to hear from people who are interested in a more wholistic approach to bighorn management. It's not just about exposure to germs. Exposure to germs is a constant part of life and a part of natural evolutionary processes that bighorns, like other creatures, are equipped to deal with if they have healthy immune systems. Pathogens are only fatal in certain bighorn herds and not in others, so it's important to figure out why.
> 
> With animals as intensely studied and closely managed as bighorns, it's quite possible that human meddling is a far bigger factor in their health than exposure to germs. It's important for biologists to realize that keeping bighorns isolated from pathogens is not a viable long-term strategy, given the fact that it's impossible to closely control the movements of wild animals and germs. It might be a good stop gap measure to keep newly transplanted herds safe while they establish themselves in a new environment, but we can't realistically shut these animals off from the rest of the world for eternity. Not only is it not possible, it's not healthy in the long term.


I believe human meddling to be the the far bigger factor in most of our problems.


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## whitejerabias (May 6, 2019)

I lost two friends over the weekend and have been feeling very low. Every time I go to the pen, they crowd around me and snuggle up. It gets hard to walk, lol. Even the little scaredy-goat, Dot came up and sat on my lap. And they have been so polite at chore time, going right in the pens, separating themselves. Like the know that I don’t really have it in me to struggle with them right now.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

good babies!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I am sorry you lost the two friends. What wonderful goats you have.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

:hug:


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