# ?? About Turner - pics added



## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Turner was born 29 July 2008 - so he is just 5 months old. I knew that he was a little on the "stunted" side - as he is just tiny. But today I went to his twin sister and 1/2 brothers house and I swear they are close to twice his size.

Turner's eye lids are pink, formed goat berries. Has energy, no huge belly - except a hay belly after eating.

My question is - what the HECK could be wrong with him?? 

He is vaccinated, was herbal wormed, bottle raised in the house for 5 weeks them put out in the big pasture with about 15-18 other goaties (where he always wandered away from them looking for a way out to get to the house). 

Could it be that he isn't getting enough feed? He is a really laid back boy. Doesn't seem skinny - just "stunted".

Just thought that I would ask.


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

I have the same problem wit htwo of my yealing Boer's. They won't grow!They are perfectly healthy so I 'm at a loss for ideas. :hair:


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

his bones could be to refined/dainty.. i had that problem with some of my littler kids.. too fine boned and they never grow right


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

SDK- was that in your Boer's or Nigi's?


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

His mom was pretty tiny - his dad a larger size nigerian.

Do you think it is worth keeping him intact to see if he "snaps out of it" or should I go ahead and wether him and find him a pet home? I really like him and his mother is no longer with me - would have liked him as a possible buck next year - but dang. I have doelings that are 3 and 5 months older then him that tower him!


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

I would give him a little more time to see if he grows. Are his lines slow growers or not?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: ?? About Turner*



> bottle raised in the house for 5 weeks


 most bottle fed babies are smaller in size...than one fed by mom....

The stand back goats ...you have to be sure they get their feed one way or another...maybe pen them away from the others... at feeding time....
they always wait...until everyone is done before they walk to the feed to find all the good stuff is gone...

slow growing can be that they may of had coccidiosis as a baby- It does serious damage (scarring) to the lining of the intestines.... nutrition from her food does not absorb into the system, the food the goat eats.... is not being utilized properly and if this is the case- nothing can be done about it.

Have you dewormed lately ?

so it could be:

being bottle fed

being pushed off feed ...not getting enough

cocci related

wormy

If you really like him.........
just because he is smaller ......doesn't mean... he can't produce well...he still has his genetics and bloodlines .....


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## Candy (May 14, 2008)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

Give him time to grow! That's what I'm doing with Adam. In the spring we'll both know how they will be. What the heck, what's 1 more mouth to feed? :shrug: 
Candy :sun:


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## Sonrise Farm (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

My cousin's nubian babies stayed the size of a mini. . . . no joke! for two years so :shrug:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

I just went out and measured him - he is 12 inches tall - so I guess really he is not terribly short for 5 months - but would like to see him grow another 6 inches.

When he was bottle raised - he was given fresh raw goats milk from my milker mom.

I will give him some time. I took him out of the regular herd and put him in the oversized stall with my newly wethered boer buck (who will be leaving in 6-8 weeks for freezer camp) and my VERY layed back Nubian buck that still thinks he is Turner's size. I will pull a fecal this weekend and send in for analysis - just to double check.

I don't think it was cocci - as no others have come down with loosing weight or loose stool, and the babies that left went to a lady that is a vet tech and she ran fecals and never found cocci...... :shrug:


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

*Re: ?? About Turner*



goatnutty said:


> SDK- was that in your Boer's or Nigi's?


the nigerians.. if you breed too much dairy to dairy.. you get some kids whos bones are too fine to grow big..

do you have a newer picture of turner? the last one i saw of him was as a little baby


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: ?? About Turner*



> I just went out and measured him - he is 12 inches tall - so I guess really he is not terribly short for 5 months - but would like to see him grow another 6 inches.
> 
> When he was bottle raised - he was given fresh raw goats milk from my milker mom.
> 
> ...


Allison ......  
Just throwing out some reasons ...and ideas to you and goatnutty.. you .were both wondering together...anywayz...  After reading your response...I think it could be from being kicked off his food...and he is one of those stand back ones....I have had a few .....and you really have to pay special attention to them and make sure they eat...you are doing the right thing by moving him.... in with fewer goats..when you feed... keep an eye on him ...to make sure ...he is going to eat with the 2 ...or again be kicked off and stand back...if that is the case ....make sure he eats....... even if you have to guard him from the other two..... he may surprise ya .......when he starts getting the feed ....and may really take off...I don't mean flying...LOL :ROFL: ...
How long has it been since deworming him...?

It is A good idea anyway ....to do a fecal on him.....just in case he may or may not have worms or cocci....at least you will know ...if he does ..or doesn't ...it will be peace of mind... and you will know for sure.... if by any odd chance.. he does have... any of those... you treat him ....and he should grow better..for ya.....he is still quite young.... :hug:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

Yah, he spent a few weeks in with the Nubian buck when he was in quarentene when he first got here - so I know that he will be fine - and lil man, well, after his "brain surgery" here the other day, he is ALOT tamer - LOL! He is still walking on his back tip toes though - I find it quite funny myself.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

he thinks.... he is a Ballerina...LOL :ROFL:

sounds good Allison...good luck... :thumbup:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: ?? About Turner*

Ok here are some pics that I took about 30 minutes ago. I tried to give him a bottle to have him stretch out so you could really look at him - but then I couldn't take the pic - LOL! DUH!


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

He's definately a little fella...but I would still give him time to grow...I don't raise Nigi's but hen we had baby pygmies they were bigger than that at his age.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

See - I wasn't joking that he is not growing!


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

I never doubtet but it's hard to imagine one that small...the Boer's don't stay that way long!


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Oh, he is very little. He never had cocci as a baby, that you know of? That is the number one reason, that comes to my mind, when a baby is not growing as well. But, then again, maybe he is just from those slow-developing lines. :shrug: Do you know how much he weighs?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

He is possibly from slow growing lines, at just 5 months he is still a baby...give him some time, Allison, Chief was a wreck when I got him...at 10 weeks he looked spindly and alot like an alien! Chief has been slow to grow out too..he'll be 2 in March and his son allready is about the same size at 10 months. Not every goat is the same, and I know it's hard to not worry about him, but he's fine and he will grow. :wink: 

BTW...After seeing my Binky's dam.. Brush Creek Journey...I now know why Chief is a "slow grower"...his grand dam is TINY!(Chief is out of a doe of hers)


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

No cocci that I know of. I am sending in another fecal next week though just to double check. I have corrid here that I can treat with if need be.

As for Ivomec - is he still to young to dose with that?

I know that it is safe for pregger does - correct me if I am wrong - but should I wait till they are about 30 days after breeding before giving it to them? 

Thanks


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I do believe Ivomec is okay for younger goats. But I prefer Valbazen as it is broad-spectrum for young ones.

What I've heard is to wait on deworming until about 30 days after breeding. It's probably not a bad idea at all, just to be on the safe side.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

No problem - that is why I was curious. 

So can you help me between the differences of Ivomec Plus and Valbezen. Can you line out which ones treat what so that I can see what I need to be giving. 

Thanks


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

to me he looks to dainty..


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

hes a stubby little thing aint he. I never really saw him play much his whole life - he loves to curl up with my yearling girls. That is their lil buddy.


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## Crissa (Oct 7, 2007)

He does look tiny. :scratch: He sure is a cutie though. :wink: I bet he hits a growth spurt soon though. Same thing happened with Lyric and now her half brother Chase. I think it's in the lines.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

his bones look little.. his knees are knobby like mine were.

i attached a picture of midge(she was one!) when she was 8 months. i think when i sold her at a year and a half she was 14 inches tall


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh few!! That makes me feel so much better.

Did she ever have cocci? 

I just thought maybe my goat was a freak or something.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

nope she never had cocci.. was never nutrient deprived, never anything wrong at all.. mom and brother were totally normal.. her bones were just too refined and she never grew right


found a picture of a goat my friend has who is too refined as well

genny was born in 2006 , this was her at 11 months in 2007


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

So if that is what it is - then he should ultimately be a wether as you don't want to breed with him - or am I just way off?


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## Candy (May 14, 2008)

Oh heck, just put a diaper and a onesie on him and bring him in the house for a week. I promise that you will worry less and be more than ready for him to go back outside. :ROFL: :ROFL: I'm happy to go out and feed him apart from the others. He now is is a pen of his very own and doing well. Of course, he screamed his head off when he realized he wasn't comong back in the house with me :worried: I'm sich a mean goat mommy :shrug: LOL
Candy :sun:


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

if he's turns out to be too refined instead of just stunted i would wether him.. unless you have some very bulky does you would want to breed him too. but if bred to a "dairy" type doe your chances of getting tiny kids is high

i say give him till hes 9 or 10 months.. if he's still like 13 inches or so... then i'd say hes too fine bones


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Okey Dokey!

Thanks


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

> So can you help me between the differences of Ivomec Plus and Valbezen. Can you line out which ones treat what so that I can see what I need to be giving.


I don't have a bottle of Ivomec+ in front of me but I do have a bottle of Valbazen. It removes Liver Flukes, Tapeworms, Stomach Worms, Intestinal Worms, Lungworms. Maybe there isn't that much of a difference between them?? :shrug: I just have always had success with this brand of dewormer.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

It says on the box that it is for treatment and control of gastrointestinal round worms, lungworms, adult liver flukes, grubs, sucking lice,and mange mites.

On the bottle itself it says - for the treatment and control of internal parasites, including adult liver flukes, and ecternal parasites


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

So they are both broad-spectrum but Valbazen will cover the tapeworms and Ivomec will not and Ivomec will remove the external, Valbazen will not. 

Hmmm. I remember someone saying that if you give Ivomec orally, it will not take care of the external bugs?? But when our pygmy wether had what looked like mange on his front legs last year (not sure if it even was mange) I gave him Ivomec orally and it went away within the week. :shrug:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't know with goats - but my old sheltie had demodex mange that when she would get stressed it would flare up. Anyway, I gave it to her orally!

I inject the ivomec to all my goaties. It seems to cover more things, and they don't mind it because they are eating molassas grain when I do it - LOL!


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh, where do you get it and how often do you give it.

I hate to start them on a worming regiment - but with all the mud and crap up here - I think I am going to have to.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I got it from Jeffers Livestock Supply. I have heard so many different dosages but I like to go by 1cc per 25 lbs. as recommended by Onion Creek Farm. I also know of people who dose it at 1cc per 10 lbs. and also 1cc per 33 lbs. But 25 works for us.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

INDICATIONS
IVOMEC Plus Injection is indicated for the effective treatment and control of the following parasites of cattle: Gastrointestinal Roundworms (adults and fourth-stage larvae): Ostertagia ostertagi (including inhibited O. ostertagi), O. lyrata, Haemonchus placei, Trichostrongylus axei, T. colubriformis, Cooperia oncophora, C. punctata, C. pectinata, Bunostomum phlebotomum, Nematodirus helvetianus (adults only), N. spathiger (adults only) and Oesophagostomum radiatum. Lungworms (adults and fourth-stage larvae): Dictyocaulus viviparus. Liver Flukes: Fasciola hepatica (adults only). Cattle Grubs (parasitic stages): Hypoderma bovis and H. lineatum. Sucking Lice: Linognathus vituli, Haematopinus eurysternus and Solenopotes capillatus. Mange Mites (cattle scab*): Psoroptes ovis (syn. P. communis var. bovis) and Sarcoptes scabiei var. bovis.

http://www.atozvetsupply.com/Ivomec-Plu ... -meipl.htm

Valbezen
Broad-spectrum Cattle Dewormer Paste

For Oral Use in Cattle

Controls: Stomach Worms including 4th stage inhibited larvae of Ostertagia ostertagi
Intestinal Worms, Lungworms, Tapeworms, Mature Liver Fluke.

http://www.drugs.com/vet/valbazen-cattl ... paste.html

I do not think it is safe to use "IVOMEC Plus" on preggo goats

Ivomac cattle injectable (not the plus..I have.. not tried that ?).....and valbezen....I have given them to 1 month old boer kids....down there throat...(do not inject)....  "One at a time of course"


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

I dont know about standards, but I know he is a cutie! I'm bout to buy him a plane ticket to Arkansas. Sooooo small. Pocket goat!


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Let me know - he might just be available - LOL!


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

so valbezen is safe for pregger does?? But not ivomec plus - correct?


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

That's how I always roll. Valbazen in my males and non pregnant females, ivomec in pregnant females and young kids.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

> so valbezen is safe for pregger does?? But not ivomec plus - correct?


Neither are okay for pregnant goats, from what I've read and heard. I'm not positive on the Ivomec+ but I know for sure that Valbazen is a no-no.  I have used the regular Ivomec on pregnant does before with no problems.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

So what would you suggest for the pregger does? Safeguard?


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Yeah, Safeguard (if it is still effective in your area) or the regular Ivomec. We typically do not deworm when they are pregnant, just because of no need. We do deworm two days after kidding.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

So if you worm 2 days after - is that when you use the Valbezen?


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I have used Valbazen or Ivomec two days after. But most recently have used an herbal wormer. The one from Fir Meadow. 

Got a routine fecal back from the vet for Leona - I've only been giving her the herbal wormer from Fir Meadow ---- not a single bug!!!  So, I can tell you for sure that it works!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

DONT GIVE VALBAZEN TO PREGNANT DOES!

I learnt this the hard way.

I treated 70 odd pregnant does on my vet's advice before I knew not to ...

probably 1/3 of them aborted, premmie or stillborn or both. 

 

Now I know better.


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