# CL...What Next?



## Froggy (Feb 27, 2011)

So...I had a thread earlier for one of my does. The vet came out this morning and said that yes, it is CL, and that she has another lump forming, and that she's practically ''a ticking bomb''...his advice? Cull her. (She is 120-133days pregnant)
And then, he checked out my wether that was losing weight. He took a blood sample so he can tested for Johnes. If it's Johnes, my wether is going to die. If it's something else, (the vet suggested a kidney infection or something similar), he might survive. 
Now I know that one of my other does ALSO has CL. She's pregnant and due in the next 10days. I don't know about my other two does...but chances are they have it too. 

He said that the babies won't have it unless they nurse...is it worth pulling the kids?

I am completely crushed. 
 :sigh: :veryangry: :GAAH: :tears: :tear: :mecry:


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## Timothy Hay (Feb 12, 2011)

Ok I know how you feel we have been dealing with this for 3 years I think.. we got it when we took a goat to be bred that one ended up dying because she wasn't very healthy any ways then 3 of our pygmy wethers got it and all three of those we put down, since then we have had several other goats that have had abscess and one of those doe's had a kid and the kid is fine and hasn't had problems... 

there is a vaccination that you can give them it is made for sheep but we give it to our goats..

My mom knows more about it then I do I will have her get on later and post more information.. she did a lot of research on it and talked to a lot of vets about it..


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

First off I am sorry you are dealing with this. Having not had personal experience with CL thankfully I can only go by what I have heard and looked up myself.

As to nursing infecting the kids -- that I am not sure of. I know that with CAE thats how its transmitted but not sure with CL. 

Since you presume the does to be positive (no testing to confirm but its likely) then I would pull the kids and bottle feed. At 6 moths of age pull blood and blood test for CL. This will let you know if they came in contact with an internal abscess before birth. 

Those with outbreaks will continue to have outbreaks and could infect your whole property. So I personally feel that if you ever want to have a negative herd that removing them (culling) is your best option. 

Is the vet testing the wether for CL as well as Johnes? 

As stated by the above poster there is a vaccine for CL for sheep. This is only good for those who have not had an outbreak and to reduce the chances of one and their chance of actually getting and spreading the disease. I do believe WADDL will even make a vaccine from your specific strain of CL if you send them the gunk from an abscess. Im sure this is very costly though but can be effective for anyone who has a large herd they dont want to become infected.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> He said that the babies won't have it unless they nurse...is it worth pulling the kids?


 CL isn't transmitted through milk.... it is transmitted... if the yucky goo... gets all over and a goat is exposed to it.... It has to be an open lesion... to be transmitted .... :hug:


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

I personally would euthanize any goat with CL or Johnes...but I haven't been in those shoes yet... I know when emotions get in the way it can be hard to do the "right" thing..especially when the "right" thing is whatever decision works best for you. So whether you decide to cull her or keep her.... :hug: :hug: ... That is the hard part to goat raising.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Breeders are now using formalin 10% ... which makes CL more manageable.....
using this method properly... you are not contaminating the ground.... and exposing the other goats...
Here is a link on it.... 
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14948&start=30


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## Froggy (Feb 27, 2011)

> CL isn't transmitted through milk.... it is transmitted... if the yucky goo... gets all over and a goat is exposed to it.... It has to be an open lesion... to be transmitted ..


hmm....so I don't forcibly have to bottle feed? I'm probably going to pull Snowflake's kid anyway...so I could give the kid to another doe without fear of it getting CL?
I really don't know what to decide...I think I will cull Snowflake, though...soon after she kids.
geez...CL is certainly messy to deal with.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

If you don't pull and bottle feed then the kid/s are exposed to their infected mom and could potentially get the disease if she has an abscess - sometimes they are internal as well.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

internal organs... the lungs... kidney and liver... become infected and develop abscesses.....but it is if they have it in their lungs...that they can spread it.....to others.... usually through coughing.... :wink:


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## Froggy (Feb 27, 2011)

Okay...first off, since I don't know if all my does have CL or not, and even if I tested, I could not get results back before they kid (one is due in 4days, another in 9)...anyone think that I should bottlefeed all of the babies??


I need a little info on bottle feeding...since that seems to be the way I have to go...
will the baby be getting enough nutrients if I used pasteurized goat milk? 
I hear replace doesn't always work well...not to mention it's expensive...


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## kritterkeeper (Nov 27, 2007)

HI I am sorry to hear that you have to go through this... Like my daughter Dani said earlier we have had it for 2 years now.. We have a heard of pets.. so putting them down it like killing a member of the family. So when we got that advice it was devastating to us.. We lost the first one to just plan bad health, shortly after we found the CL, we put 3 down at the advice of others, which was the hardest thing in the world to do.

shortly after that I was told about the use of Formaldehyde to treat it.. We have treated two does successfully and have not had a abscess in over a year.. The Vet from Mich State says that it only can survive outside a host for 5 mo. so it does not live forever on the ground or anywhere else.

It is NOT transmitted thought milk from the mother to baby. Only if the baby came in contact with the puss from a abscess.

We started Vaccinating for CL with Case Back and have not had any new cases since starting..

I got a lot of good information from this lady- her web site is good and she will talk to you on the phone too..

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/artic ... nitis.html

and if you do decide to butcher them it is edible..

I kind of describe it to people as a disease that is treatable but not curable..

have any question feel free to ask.

Donna B


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## Froggy (Feb 27, 2011)

seems to be quite a bit of controversy... sounds like I've got a lot of thinking to do :chin: :thinking:


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## KFOWLER (Oct 5, 2010)

Quick question for Donna (kritterkeeper)---Is the Case Back a treatment for goats or for sheep with CL.? What dosage do u use per pound?? Also is it safe for pregnant goats??
Thanks!!


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

:hug: 

personally. 

I'd pull the kids at birth, milk the does' colostrum and cull them, either for your own consumption or not. 
I hope I never go through this 
:hug:


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## kritterkeeper (Nov 27, 2007)

Okay- My two cents take it or leave it.. but this hit a nerve with me...

As someone who is living with this and knows someone who has defeated it, I wish people who have NOT been in our shoes and done as much research and talked to as many people as I have would please quit telling people to cull (kill) there goats. 

and the person who defeated CL did not cull any of her goats, she treated those who had it and vac. and yes eventually the ones that had it passed away and now she has a clean herd again. 

I learned a long time ago to never say NEVER... because it will come back to bit you in the butt. 

And when you tell someone something and make it should like it is the only way you can do it, you do not know what they are going through at the time beside this and what those animals mean to them.. 

SO BE Careful... it is a goat and sheep disease and they would not have a vac for it, if it was not spreading.. YES I know that they only have a Vac for sheep at the moments BUT IT WORKS we can use it.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

KFOWLER said:


> Quick question for Donna (kritterkeeper)---Is the Case Back a treatment for goats or for sheep with CL.? What dosage do u use per pound?? Also is it safe for pregnant goats??
> Thanks!!


I do realize you feel strongly Kritterkeeper and you are totally entitled to them - why dont you also answer the questions directed at you? I feel this would be most helpful to those looking for answers :thumb:


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## kritterkeeper (Nov 27, 2007)

she had also sent me a private message and I replied to her question in that.. I am sorry for sounding so rude about it, But like you said I feel very strongly about this subject.. and it is a pet peeve of mine when people use the word cull as if it is a nice word. CL is not a death sentence, 

So sorry for my rude behavior.. 

Donna B


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## kritterkeeper (Nov 27, 2007)

*This is the reply I gave to her in a private message minus a few personal details*

the only Vac. for CL that is available right now is for Sheep, but has been used successfully on Goats and I follow the amounts on the package.

I do not know if it is safe for PG Does, I always bottle feed my babies.. and give them the shot when I give them there other shots once a yr. and that is in the fall. the baby can have it at 2 mo and 4 weeks later. then once a year after that.. the older goats the first time get it then 4 weeks later. then once a year after that.

After talking to several vets at State Unv. It is not a death sentence. It is not curable but controllable. Did you go to the web site I had listed.. I like what the lady says

"CL is a fact of life in goats (and sheep). If you don't have it yet, you will have it. You don't have to own or buy infected goats; flies can carry the bacteria from nearby infected animals and bring it to your goats. "

Hope this helps- I know it is a heart breaking thing to go through but now that I am 2 yrs into it, I just treat it and try to make sure no one else gets it by vac for it. and telling everyone else to vac for it.

I am here for you, you can call me if you would like

Donna B


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## kritterkeeper (Nov 27, 2007)

I also added in a new message to her that we were told to wait till after Kidding to give the CL (Case Back) Vac.

Donna B


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I need to pipe in as I have done major research and helping farms in this situation and there is more information to be had and think about also.

One must think about what is best for them, their herd, and their goals for their goats. Whether this be goats for pet, production, sales, or even for show. to say that it is a fact of owning goats / sheep is a VERY old school way of thinking - and personally would not ever think of it that way.

For pets - yes manageable but not cureable. but one must be able to have the ability to pull kids (as CAN be internal - although internal is more common in sheep than goats) bottle raise - and then raise in a completely different portion of the property never ever inhabited by a positive animal, change boots and clothing everytime leaving the infeted area and testing testin testing of the offspring.

For show or production - I would NEVER purchase an animal from a heard that was known to have (or an outbreak that has not been tested many years there after negative). Sorry, but just can not risk bringing in an animal to infect a $10,000 herd that i worked along time to get to where it is, as CL does affect production - meat and dairy.

Also - with show - if a person is planning on showing - that is just not right to take animals from a possible contagious herd, even if raised seperated, to a show. I would be LIVID if I knew there was a known CL herd there at the show. It can be brought in on hooves, shoes, clothes, body and then to transmit that throught out the show.

To me, yes, Culling is the way to go. That is how we get to the optimal breed standards - wether that be culling by death, or culling by pet - culling is a livestock way of life in all species. It sucks, i know, and that is why pet homes (in some situations) is appropriate - but we are talking about a contagious disease that can, and will, have negative effects on a herd, on a monetary level, and on a personal level, and possibly for other herds if a person believes it is not a big deal and a way of life.

The vaccine - is a sheep vaccine and only protects from certain strains, much like the Flu vaccine that most take (which I do not for this very reason). It only protects against certain strains. Yes, it is the best we can do at this time for a commercial vaccine, however, there are drawbacks from the vaccine also. The vaccine will put antibodies in the system, which then when tested, will show up as an animal being postive, when infact they are not -which potentially, if an animal is sold to a "tested herd" and they test and the animal is positive they will cull immediately.

Now there IS a way to help to get a herd to "clean" status, per say. If an animal gets an active abcess, you can take the puss, place in a red top tube and send to a state lab to have an isolate taken (I know WADDL does it, but not sure on others - and it is not very expensive - I think less than 50.00) Then you have the isolate sent to Hygia lab in California. They will make a vaccine specific to the strain using the isolate at a reasonable price. But again, you will run into a "testing issue" on any animals vaccinated with this vaccine.

I am not trying to start a fight, but giving both sides of the coin. Pet side vs production side. Also on production side - for meat - if a carcus has more than I think 2% abcesses, it is not saleable - so it is an issue in livestock and production on the meat side of animals also. CL is also known as Pigeon Fever in horses and is transferable between species.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Dec 14, 2009)

Also, I think the reason they suggest pulling the babies is because they can get abcesses in the udder and if it bursts, then the babies ingest the pus along with the milk and you can't always tell if they have an abcess in the udder.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

It is a shame that there hasn't been enough research to try and end this disease, there are many ways to manage it but it does seem to be a given that most do feel as though its one of those "either deal with it or don't" diseases. 
With the research I've done, even with a pet herd, or those that are for personal use, the care and responsibility that goes into treating an abcessed goat is not only time consuming but is heartbreaking for the goat, to have to endure endless amounts of draining, cleaning, and healing doesn't seem to be something I personally would want a beloved pet to endure. Yes, I believe that every living being deserves a chance at a happy life and I would do everything I possibly could to ensure a happy life, even if it meant that I would'nt ever see babies born here. Even if there are no external abcesses, the possibility of internal ones is there and the infected goats tend to be unhealthy looking due to the disease...and it weakens the immune system to the point that even the sniffles can turn into something much worse.

There had been a member here at one time, I'm sorry, I can't think of who right now...anyhow, she had been dealt the blow of finding out that her very loved doe was CL positive and had done the treatments to heal the abcesses, from what I remember though, it had been a long road trying to keep her healthy. 

Whatever manner that is chosen to control the disease is entirely up to the person who is caring for the goats, being responsible and mindful of neighboring goat breeders if you choose to keep a positive herd is important, simple bio security measures should be taken to contain it to the goats in question.
We are here to help you with the course of action, not berate you for choosing to manage it or the manner in which you choose to do so. :hug:


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## KFOWLER (Oct 5, 2010)

@ kritterkeeper...thanks again for the info...it will help me in making my decisions.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I had one doe whom I'm pretty sure had CL, and sadly was never careful with her, not knowing what it was. It's only lucky that none of my goats have ever had an abscess after her (we were always careful to have them lanced somewhere besides the backyard, however).

Right now, Jenny is abscess-free, mainly because she was raised on Case-Bac (meaning no blood tests for her for CL). I hate to admit, but she has been exposed to a goat with CL before, never an open abscess, but I still check carefully. Reading through this, would she still be "acceptable" to take to shows, or should she be left at home?

Personally, (and this is knowing someone personally who has 2 does with CL abcesses and how they're handling it) if you can manage your herd, and the animal is worth keeping, there's no need to cull unless you want to for your own sanity and to prevent risk.


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## Froggy (Feb 27, 2011)

well...we really got the goats originally for brushclearing, milk & meat. They're pretty much ''pets''; I never plan to show or sell breeding stock. However, I had hoped to sell access wethers for pets. 

As mentioned by Liz before, the care of a CL-positive goat with an abscess is stressful, for both the animal and the caretaker, and that concerns me most. 
Especially because as it is, I do not have the facilities to isolate a goat properly (staking out in the woods is Not ideal).

I guess I will have to talk seriously w/my parents, see if they have any reasonable ideas (my mom's idea is to move to the city & buy a goldfish :roll: )

Oh, and....is it common for a doe to get an udder abscess? 
That is, I went to check my goats this morning and noticed a bit of a lump on my very-pregnant doe's udder...slight, and squishy, but I've never noticed that before. Maybe I'm paranoid :?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Udder abcesses are an ideal area due to the lymph nodes for a CL abcess, now, since she is pregnant and has an udder, is it a surface lump or can you feel it deeper? The mammary glands themselves are firm but also soft until the doe starts to fill her udder...if it's more on the surface(I assume it's the back of her udder) look for an entry wound as it may be from a thorn.

Cl abcesses in the udder normally occur at the top of the udder.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

So I am new to researching all of this. CL seems very hard to determine to me and also VERY hard to keep out of your herd. It is transmittable via clothing/shoes, insects and with young babies they can not accurately be tested until they are 8 months old! 

How can you BE SURE you keep it out of your herd, UNLESS you vaccinate? To me, vaccinating, just makes the most sense. Seems like, I could test all of my animals, quarantine new ones but it could still enter unknown to me!

Also, what would be the thing to do if you purchase an older goat (one whom has been bought and sold) say the goat is totally healthy and has no abcesses--what if it tests positive??? Since you would not know the past history (like if it HAD been vaccinated in the past) would you cull what could be/may be a very valuable/healthy animal???

Is the time to act only if and when there is an abcess? I am confused re: how I may securly keep my herd free of this? Or should I just decided that it may be a given at some point and just vaccinate?


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I am not trying to stir the pot at all here, but several years ago we had a clinic with the CSU Vets and they said the vaccine for the sheep was NOT a good idea to give to goat at all. He said yes a lot of things that say for sheep can be given to goats but NOT this vaccine. Now things might of changed since then but that is what I least heard.
I have never had a goat with CL, CAE or Johnes and I find it kind of offensive that some say everyone will get it. That is NOT right. When we go to shows we go to the shows that you have to have a health check, and I know all the goats that I stall around. So please do not panic people by saying everyone will get it. I have gone 10 years free.
I am so sorry you have to deal with this, as for culling, do what your heart days to do. If you are not ever taking them to shows, and they are only for your own pleasure keep them, but remember you need to find a buck that you can have there to breed with, so she is not going to expose a buck to CL.


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