# Good enough to be a buck? Udder pics added



## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

Heres a buckling, should he stay a buck or be wethered?

Will get udder pics tomorrow.

Here he is.




























Heres his Sire.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

will reserve judgement till I see udder pictures.


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## Saanens N Alpines (Oct 20, 2010)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

I don't know, but I want to hug and squeeze him! What a cutie, and I love his markings!!


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

Unfortunately he was like just born, she wont be milking her until starting tomorrow, so the udder will hopefully be full! I told her to try and seperate or at least get a pic when its full. The udders behind him are amazing though, so hopefully hers is good 

I LOVE his moonspots


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

Very cute! You seam to get a photo every time he pees.


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

OR maybe he just knows hes sexy LOL


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## GoatJoy (Aug 9, 2010)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

Oh he is precious! I love his moon spots too!


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

He apparently has ALOT more underneath that you cant see! Theres something about his shoulders I dont like, and his neck seems short, other than that I like him


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

Yea; he knows he's sexy. :dance:


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

That first pic was right when he was born....I think he knows hes very cute! Hope he can stay a buck, I just his colors!


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

Did his moonspots come from mom or dad? I know they can be tiny and hidden on some goats.


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

I think mom. his sire has no moonspotted parents. I love his spots, hes the cutest!


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## quakingcanopy (Feb 22, 2011)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

Pedigree? That would be helpful too!


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

Amanda, Sire is Alethea Wowie Kazowie, owned by Penny Hamers.
The dam I forgot, but shes all copper penny in her lines.


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: Good enough to be a buck?*

Udder pics


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## quakingcanopy (Feb 22, 2011)

She's very uneven so it's hard to be sure 

It's best to wait until she is 2-3 weeks fresh, do a good udder clipping, and then take good shots where she's full. If the boy is favoring one side tell the owner to milk the other side out the the AM and PM too keep her even. Teat size looks good, fore looks well extended but can't see enough to see if it's particularly smooth, if there's a pocket there, etc. Can't tell on medial because of the unevenness. And remember the hormones present that allow labor make the rear udder droop much lower then it actually is, so it's really good to wait until she recovers to assess her. Otherwise I can't tell much about position, lateral attachments or much else because she's so fluffy! Hahaha. Looking forward too seeing she she looks like in a couple of weeks. Penny has some nice animals, but remember not every breeding from even the best farms work the way the breeder expected!


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

He was born on the 19th, and has a sister, so idk why its uneven lol.

I told her everything you just said already....so hopefully she listens!


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## quakingcanopy (Feb 22, 2011)

Hopefully we get too see her clipped and can give some more insight  Pedigree is useful too. It's not EVERYTHING, but it's useful!


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

Ya! She just started milking this morning!

I talked to Penny Hamers, and she liked the buckling, and said his pedigree was very nice! 

Hopefully hes buck worthy!


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## Saanens N Alpines (Oct 20, 2010)

I can only see one teat.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Thats what I thought at first also. It is there. :wink:


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

She has 2 lol both of the teat pics are of each teat


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## Saanens N Alpines (Oct 20, 2010)

Aaah, ok, I see it now in the last pic. The first one looks like it's not there! Yes, pics when she is full will make it easier to tell.


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

ya at first i was worried lol but its because shes lopsided


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

The buckling looks nice. However, at that age, it is so hard to give a very precise critique. You can see in the first photo, it looks like he toes out quite a bit in the rear. 

Looking at his dam's udder, there is really no way to give an accurate opinion from the photos. She really should be shaved up and if the owner considers him good enough to be a buck, then I would definately need to see her udder better. Unfortunately it's crooked so I don't know if you'll ever see how it should look. Sorry if I missed it, but what freshening is the doe on?


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

This is her first freshening....


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Kinda strange for a FF with twins to have such a crooked udder so soon. Are the kids nursing from both sides ok? That's a shame it's crooked already. If she's from a really nice background of udders there may be some potential, but you'll definately want to see some better photos. 

Very flashy buckling by the way!...looks like he got those spots from his momma...you can see some in the photos.


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

Im really not sure about the crooked udder, its so weird! Maybe they milked her like that? I will ask...

He has lots of really nice udder in his background, so I know theres potential, I LOVE his spots! Im so jealous! lol


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

Since you mentioned she was a FF... red flags go flying in my head...

Why keep a buck who can potentially sire hundreds of kids in his lifetime from an unproven FF doe? I don't understand the reasoning here.... but I am HUGE about improving the Nigerian Dwarf breed, so I will be the first to admit that I'm *crazy* about having proof, records, tests, registration, etc etc etc... it's my biggest issue/pet peeve. I think of all the tried & true breeders who have been doing this for many many years & all of their hard work at improving & promoting the breed...their incredible knowledge & skill at judging animals... if they don't sell bucks from FF because they want to ensure a top quality breeding animal, then why should I counter that?

But...I also come from an area on the west coast where 'wethers & pets' have a waiting list... even at local auctions the wethers sell for more than doe's. So maybe it's my area that has me being 'pro-wether' ???

Hopefully that makes sense and doesn't come out as harsh as it might seem??? ...I do not in any way mean to offend or come off harsh.


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## Saanens N Alpines (Oct 20, 2010)

I see your point Traci. I would like another opinion from someone who thinks like you do about my buckling and if I should wether him. 
Pics of his dam:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21001
pic of him in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20651
You can reply back to me in my first thread link so that I'm not stealing this one!
The sire's dam had a very nice udder and conformation. The owners of the sire are verrrry particular about who gets to stay a buck and also be good enough for them use as a buck.


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm of the thought process that there are SO MANY unwanted/unloved bucks out there that unless I REALLY REALLY continuously think WOW (and I have another more knowledgeable person do the same also) then I'll consider keeping him a buck. I've yet to keep a single buckling (although I do have one that sticks in my memory that SHOULD have stayed a buck & I kick myself all the time for it!! Grrr...) ...My doe's were mostly FF and a few seniors that did show ADGA well but didn't place near the top of their class and my bucks were both unproven (as far as seeing udders directly from them) so I won't even think to keep a buckling in those situations. But my genetics have taken a big leap forward this past year, so now I would consider keping bucklings. I can now see my buck, Fireworks, littermate sister w/a GORGEOUS udder, and have a doe by him freshening to show the udder genetics that he's putting out. I also have milk test info, LA info, show info, & pics from my other mature bucks dam too, so he'll slide into the 'maybe bucklings' category too, but only if they are out of my best doe's, none of the other doe's are 'proven' to me yet. My other little bucks are young & unproven, so they fall into the 'wethers only' category until they produce doe's with beautiful udders. :thumb: 

I guess overall, I'm saying that my philosophy is that the dam must be 'proven' (which to me means a WOW udder without question, & some other proof to support that - like show wins, great LA score, milk test info, etc) AND the sire must be 'proven' just the same (a body that makes me go WOW, & some other proof to support that - like show wins or great LA score). I lean more heavily on LA info than show wins as it's much more solidly based. A show win just means that Judge X thought Goat X was the best goat in that ring at that moment... You don't know how many goats were there, what the competition was like, what the judges preferences are, etc. Whereas the LA is based on an IDEAL of the perfect goat. Yes, it's still influenced by the Appraiser & his views, but it's just more solid than a competition situation.

Hopefully all this makes sense and doesn't offend anyone???? Like I said earlier I'm brutal when it comes to improving the breed... :think:


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

Traci, I understand. I NEVER keep bucks out of FFs. BUT my buck Jasper from Castle rock, his Sire was from an FF and he is now one of the best bucks in cali. So just because they are ffs doesnt mean its ABSOLUTELY horrible to keep them as bucks! lol 

But again, I totally agree with you, BUT if the does udder is very nice and her confirmation plus the bucks and the dads is great then I would assume to keep him as a buck, not saying this guy is perfect! Just wanted an opinion for a friend


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

Hi sweetie! How ya doin'? :greengrin: 
yup, yup... I LOVE  your Jasper too (feel free to send him my way whenever you want! LOL! Heck I'll drive down & pick him up... "Front Door Service" LOL)...
and my Phi Phi (Ophelia) who cleaned house as a Jr Doe in Cali is also 'Guy' bred.... but I know that Sarah doesn't make it 'regular' practice to keep bucks from FF... that's all I'm saying... and goodness knows that she's got LOTS of exceptional breeding stock there!!  I mean she has been doing this a long time and has LOTS LOTS LOTS more experience than me :greengrin: . She's one of those breeders that I'd LOVE to spend a day just listening to them and all their insights & great knowledge...oh how I would LOVE that :leap: hee hee... some people dream of white sandy beaches in Hawaii and here I am dreaming of sitting at the feet of some of my favorite goat breeder idols just soaking up all the have to say.. yes, it's a disease...and I DEFINITELY failed my 12 step program! I thought it meant no more than "12 kids" not 12 steps... ugh... :help: :wink:


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

HAHAHA Jasper is my BABY!!! I dont think he will ever leave, hes very special! BUT hey, theres always leasing or studding LOL
Ya, she barely keeps any bucks as it is! 

My dream was to meet sarah and maybe ONE day own a goat from her, I ended up going to her farm many times and now own some goaties from her, shes super nice and very helpful and willing to answer anything! She also LOVES when people visit, so we can help bottle feed!

You should come to cali, meet her, then come see me and Jasper! lol


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

We DO come to Cali about every year (For Disneyland!)... but the hubby is definitely NOT a goat guy! LOL!! If I mentioned we were stopping at a goat farm... oh boy!! I don't even want to think how far my butt would skid down the highway when he kicked me outta the truck! LOL!!!! :slapfloor:


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

AWWWWW darn! Maybe I will have to come visit you then! I still want a goatie from you!!

Jasper is a great buck, he sure loves the ladies, hes beyond a ladies man LOL he doesnt do anything when he smells women...haha too bad you werent closer! Id totally let you "borrow" him


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

Ha ha ha ha.... I'm laughing like crazy right now... picturing/hearing the sound from Jaws ... you know the Dun, Dun..dun..dun..dun... I'm coming for Jasper!! Ha ha ha ha ROFL!! :slapfloor:


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## quakingcanopy (Feb 22, 2011)

I would never presume to speak for Sarah, but I can tell you pretty confidently that if it were her choosing - she would keep this buck intact. Here's why - proof of the dam's side. Tanzanite, Jasper's litter mate brother, already has a couple of sons on the ground being kept as bucks. She has a lot of confidence in these lines, or so we can assume. But the dam herself is very important to consider. As a FF you just can't know ENOUGH. With Raven (Guy Noir's dam) Sarah had personally seen her mother and grandmother's udders and knew Raven had inherited it - meaning the udder genetics were very strong in those lines. So, she kept guy, and she was right - her passes on those great genetics pretty consistently. Of course, no buck produces wonderful awesomeness every time! 

This doe who is the mother of the buck kid you posted is a FF. First rule of thumb to make him a whether to be. She also doesn't have any visible proof of an udder worthy of a buck, though that has a lot to do with the unevenness, that it isn't full, and that it isn't clipped. And finally, we aren't seeing a pedigree full of LA scores worthy of bucks, DHIR records showing production, and so on. In fact we aren't seeing any pedigree right now  Hahaha Overall I assume if the dam was like an "OMG this is a GREAT doe" type then she can be bred to Jasper next year and then keep a buck!


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## quakingcanopy (Feb 22, 2011)

Oh and Traci - Sarah is GREAT to talk goats with. Very knowledgeable. You'll go home knowing twice as much as you did when you came. And she's always grateful to have the extra set of hands around to help with this or that!


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

Traci! Thanks for the Chuckle LOL

Amanda, ummmm I dont have the lines anymore, ugh. BUT the sire is from Alethia, and penny owns him, she adores him!

Dam is from a small farm, but is all copper penny. When I showed Penny she said all the does ancestors had really nice udders, and the dams dam was very nice, she loved her udder.

I love this guy, but I think he may be destined to be a wether, unless I can go steal him! lol


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

Penny has/had Alethia Wowie Kazowie (atleast for awhile??) and he's out of Algedi Farm Honey Dew (Alethia's goat) who is AWESOME! And she's full sibling to a handful of other goaties that are also cleaning house everywhere & scoring 90+ on their LA's...so yeah, whew... Kaylee @ Algedi Farm knows just how to piece together the most awesome Rosasharn genetics... she has a few SUPER goaties that just work magic when they are bred together... truly unbelievable!  And someday soon, one will be mine! :greengrin:


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

I wish I could get a goat from her! She really has some nice goaties! Ive seen a few and WOW they are lovely!

I dont know about this boys dam though....


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