# FF with small kids?



## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I am having the worst time with all of my FF and their kids. The kids are just not growing well. The only one that is doing good in a Mercedes single and she is growing fast. But Stirred had a single also and it's tiny. Has anyone else had issue with kids not growing as fast from first fresheners? These are boers so that's why I posted here. I mean at u weeks these kids are only like 20 pounds. I always give my does a second chance if there is a problem 1 year but I am wondering if I need to cull 4 out of the 5 does. Any advise would help.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What do you feed? What supplements do you give? How old are the kids?


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

The dams get a 16% textured grain and the kids eat a little while the doe's feed. They all get good quality alfalfa hay that I bale so I know it's not been rained on and is based at the right time. The kids are getting a 20% protein 5.5% fat textured creep feed that I had made. They have all been wormed twice now. Cinders kids were born 1-7-17 and the other kids were born the weekend of 1-28-17. They are all eating hay, grain, and drinking water. Stirred is the only one that's a bad mom and doesn't really pay attention to her kids. The other does are very attentive.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

the red doe kid is stirred's baby and the kid next to her is martini's kid who is 3 weeks older. Both are singles.








It's hard to tell but these 2 red bucks are 3 weeks younger then then the traditionals.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Check a fecal for coccidia


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I will check but I don't understand why it's only the FF kids and none of the dams that have kidder before.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sometimes first timers do have smaller kids, if they were big, they would have major issues for the first time kidding.
I have some first timers kid, who have normal size born kids, then they really pick up with growth thereafter. 
I also have had smaller and slower growing kids. Then they pick up as they get a little older.
I give my first timers another shot of it, because most of the time, I see a big improvement next go around.

Another thing is, they need selenium and copper in their diets when pregnant, if they don't get enough, can also cause smaller kids being born or even growing, they need it as well.

If they are not getting into the feed(creep feeder) and eating, being pushed out or do not have the taste for it, they will be smaller and not grow as good. Be sure they are eating the creep feed or if you have to, make another area for them to get into and put some in their mouth to start them on it. It does help.

As mentioned, cocci will stunt them as well.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Are the FF's low in herd order? Is it possible they aren't getting as much of the good stuff as the others?


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Yes they are lower so that's why I stand there during feeding times and make sure they all get their grain and they get plenty of hay.
I am all about the kids being smaller at birth but this slow growing is the issue. 
I guess we will see how next year goes.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

I always feed separate so each doe has her own feed according to their needs. I would give them another go they should do better next time. The doe that doesn't pay attention to her kid much I would sell if she's not good next year.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

There was some study a friend showed me probably 2 years ago and it stated that younger does do not have as 'rich' of milk as older does. I forget what the age was on it but it was a age that surprised me enough to still remember reading it. At age I believe 6 the milk quality 'richness' if you will will start to go down as well. I'll message her and see if she remembers what that age was. I want to say age 3-6 is the prime time but don't quote me on that.
Any FF of mine that has more then a single never really impress me much, I always figure they are trying to adapt to being moms and sharing what they are getting with kids so will give them another chance. Except if the mom is fat as a tick and the kids are blah, that annoys me to no end and I'll sell them over that but there really hasn't ever been many of those.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Yes the skinnier the moms are the better they are! All my girls are as skinny as can be because they give their kids everything!


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

My does are pretty skinny for boers. Lexus really produces pretty good for a FF but I don't know if these kids are getting cold and not nursing or what. I will give them all a second chance I guess I am just annoyed. I only have 1 doe kid that will go to market for sure. She has constricted tendons and does not use her right leg and I need to get a brace for her leg but it can't be to tight because she still can't straighten her leg all the way.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh I forgot your super cold there. They burn a lot of energy when they are cold maybe upping energy would help ??? Shredded beat pulp is a good source but spendy, corn is too but I know a lot of people won't feed it. If your not anti corn maybe a little cob added to their diet or even just a small hand full of crimped corn per animal. 
Either way I wouldn't totally hold it against them if it was me. I mean maybe If you have your eye set on another doe and you need room lol but you've already put about two years into them so I would try them again


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

They all have a textured grain so they have cracked corn in their grain. It's supposed to be warm this week after tomorrow. So I hope that helps them alot.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good advice.

Does that doe have plenty of milk for her little doeling, is her kid nursing OK and mom not pushing her off a lot more than other does? Be sure her milk is OK and no mastitis is setting in or she is too tight or something weird there.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

She doesn't have a ton of milk but it should be enough. She doesn't push her kid away really she just ignores her enough that even the kid just doesn't try to stay with her mom. They pretty much live seperate lives until she wants to nurse. She pretty much stays with her grandma.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Before the kid did this was the doe a good mom? At two months mine start leaving mom a little more to play but if she wasn't all over that kid before she might end up on my cull list. Even at 2 months if baby cries she still should answer her


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

I had a "bad" mom this year and I thought I was going to have to bottle feed her kid cause she would be in our top field and her son would be in the very bottom field by himself hidden!! After a month or so her personality changed quick! She now cries if she doesn't see any of the babies and nurses everyone's kids! Maybe she might turn around but I doubt it after 2 months.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

She was an awesome mom for the first 2 weeks but once I moved them.all to a group pen it's like she totally forgot she was a mom or that she had a baby except for the few times a day she feeds her kid. The mom is back with her dam and her buddies. Maybe she is still just a little immature and next year will be better. After writing all of this out its starting to make sense.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

That could be! Also after you take her kid away from her at weaning time that might teach her you need to watch them a little better lol


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I hope your all right. Next year has to be better I gotta stay positive.


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## Jensenboers (Dec 29, 2016)

Look for grain that boosts milk production I know there is some at tractor supply


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I started using the Purina Charge Concentrate mixed with boss and sweet cob (the recipe is one the tag on the bag, different mixes for different percentages of protein). My girls are loving it, eating eagerly and doing great with the milk. I just started DHI this year, and I'm happy with my goats. I attribute it to partly their wonderful breeders and partly that grain. That Producers Pride sweet cob looks and smells like trail mix, and evidently it's delish.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Cold weather should make the kids eat more and grow better, mine grow so much better in the colder winter months than the warmer spring. 

Smallish kids and one with tendon issues? I'd be checking for mineral issues.

Did you run a fecal to know what worms you were trying to kill? If not, they could be loaded with worms because the medication did not target what they had. 

I would do the cocci prevention protocol. That should help the kids grow if they don't have to fight to keep cocci away.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

They are clear of worms besides a normal cocci level that's always there. One thing Candice shared and makes sense is first time mom's don't produce as much fat in their milk so that's why the kids are slower growing. They just didn't have as much hair so they were almost to.cold to eat. Now that it's warming up they are eating like Champs. They will just be in smaller weight classes and that's alright. I also talked with a few breeders about the tendons and they said it's because she must have had her legs folded tight in the womb. Her dam honestly didn't look bred so I was gonna be happy with a single. I guess there just wasn't room in her womb. Next year hopefully things are better.


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