# Beautiful useless buck???



## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

I'm new here - but I know a lot of you are experts in judging goats! So I have been agonizing over whether to use this buck ( 1 1/2 years...

To me, he is gorgeous from the tip of his nose - to his tail head - after that I'd like to stick a new rear end on him!

To me - he has no width in his escutcheon- and his legs seem too long ( of course he's not set up - but I don't think that would help!)

The breeder has told me that his legs are fine.

I can't imagine this being genetic - he comes from the best Nigerian stock ( Dam is -11 years old - so some old well known genetics there)

I have seen pics of all of his relatives online and none are like this.

I only had bucklings from him
Last year- so I haven't seen any udders yet

But according to what I've seen from this breeder -- he should carry some awesome udder genes!

Creating a new life that isn't up to snuff isn't something I take lightly! There are too many unwanted nigis on Craigslist!

His pluses:
Super calm and sweet!
Good brisket
Shoulders
Extra loose dairy skin!
Health/parasite resistance
Wide chest
Long neck

Any advice would be sooooo welcome!!

Could this be due to neglected hoof trimming? I didn't buy him directly from the breeder - someone picked him up and had him 10 months. His feet needed trimming when we got him - his front Pasterns look like they are fallen!? And he was completely hockey - but that improved with minerals!

Thank you!!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I think starting him on a selenium supplement might help a lot.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I personally wouldn't use a buck like that on my does, however, width and straight hind legs are something we really struggle with and are trying very hard to improve. 
This is probably definitely genetic, even if his parents and relatives don't have it. 
It's up to you. If you have really nice does that are very wide and correct, it may be worth it to breed him to them.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> I think starting him on a selenium supplement might help a lot.


Hey - thanks he was very hockey when we got him - he gets a good amount of selinium and it has helped the hockiness - but can a selenium def. cause the narrow escutcheon too - or is that a bone structure thing?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Narrow escutcheons are only genetic related. I was thinking more the weak pasterns and canons too far back.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Ranger1 said:


> I personally wouldn't use a buck like that on my does, however, width and straight hind legs are something we really struggle with and are trying very hard to improve.
> This is probably definitely genetic, even if his parents and relatives don't have it.
> It's up to you. If you have really nice does that are very wide and correct, it may be worth it to breed him to them.


Thank you for your honesty - that is what is stopping me- I have good width ( always room for improving though!) on my girls - and I feel like I would be going backward in improving - just to find an awesome udder!


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Narrow escutcheons are only genetic related. I was thinking more the weak pasterns and canons too far back.





Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Narrow escutcheons are only genetic related. I was thinking more the weak pasterns and canons too far back.


Yes the canons are beyond the pin bones 
I can go back over 5 generations and know that each relative has been well used! Can narrow esc. Be recessive and just show up?


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Narrow escutcheons are only genetic related. I was thinking more the weak pasterns and canons too far back.


Here are bucks from him this year - I bred him to my best doe so that if there was any esc. Prob I would know it wasn't from her!

One kid looked like him -( first 2 pics) weak legs at birth - narrow esc

The other looked like the mom - fairly good esc.

As far as genetics go- does that mean that the buckling that looks ok- can pass on the bad esc. Genes too?

Need to know - I sold the bucklings - but I'm holding papers until I get some answers!

Funny - the original breeder sent me his kid pics - ( side view) almost identical to the first buckling! Shouldn't that high rear end be a good indicator of a future wether??


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

So you all just said a bunch of gibberish as I look st it lol I don't understand any of that but bottom line is if you are not 100% happy with everything about him don't settle. I know it seems most of the time that the perfect buck you are wanting is few and far between but when you consider the purchase price or what your settling with and the feed, probably wear on fencing and supplies on and on it would end up being cheaper in the long run to get exactly what you want. This is unless you have a budget (dang stupid budgets!!) then go with the best you can. If he has almost everything you need to improve or at least maintain the quality you have if your happy with what you have (I never am) then I say give him a shot. If the kids will be improved it should mean more money and better kids to retain and then you can go for the 100% perfect buck.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Narrow escutcheons are only genetic related. I was thinking more the weak pasterns and canons too far back.


Suzanne - it sounds like you know genetics-- I don't know if this is answerable or not- but does he only carry the genetics for a narrow escutcheon - or does he carry the good gene too.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

Again, I'm going to show my ignorance. But why is a wide rear leg stance desirable? And what is an escutcheon? Can someone put up some pictures of goats that meet the standard? I have mutts, so I don't know what their breed standard should be.
And one more thing, I really appreciate the fact that the members of this board seem to be committed to breeding healthier stronger goats and tell it like it is. It's hard to hear criticism about your "babies" but it's done in a very respectful way. So Kudos to those members who are willing to guide and teach us novices.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Madgoat said:


> Again, I'm going to show my ignorance. But why is a wide rear leg stance desirable? And what is an escutcheon? Can someone put up some pictures of goats that meet the standard? I have mutts, so I don't know what their breed standard should be.
> And one more thing, I really appreciate the fact that the members of this board seem to be committed to breeding healthier stronger goats and tell it like it is. It's hard to hear criticism about your "babies" but it's done in a very respectful way. So Kudos to those members who are willing to guide and teach us novices.


None of us were born with goat infirmation 
I totally agree - it's so nice to be able to ask for help - knowing that everyone is going to be polite! 
The escutcheon is the area that the udder fits in to - not a technical definition! But when you look at the rear of a buck - you try to imagine an udder in there- the more room hopefully more udder!

I don't have show winners  but I have a couple of bucks that I think have nice escutcheons --

I do feel pretty strongly about always breeding to improve in every way possible from
Health -milk- and conformation. It's good for everybody!


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

Thanks Annieday, I'm an avid reader but hands-on experience is the best teacher. I know about large dogs, small dogs, birds, horses, but goats are whole nother story in my book. I watch them play and jump from and to heights that shouldn't be possible, I watch my buck take on my 16 hand gelding, my babies ride my donkey, and I forget how fragile they can be. So I plan to "read" as many threads here as I can, and pester the goat gurus with questions.. I see you're from Florida also, what area? I'm in Volusia


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Madgoat said:


> Thanks Annieday, I'm an avid reader but hands-on experience is the best teacher. I know about large dogs, small dogs, birds, horses, but goats are whole nother story in my book. I watch them play and jump from and to heights that shouldn't be possible, I watch my buck take on my 16 hand gelding, my babies ride my donkey, and I forget how fragile they can be. So I plan to "read" as many threads here as I can, and pester the goat gurus with questions.. I see you're from Florida also, what area? I'm in Volusia


Well, you've learned about animals I have never had! Yes! Forums are lifesavers! Tho vets and books have their place - I would rather hear about real experiences!

Some very experienced people are on here - that are willing to take time to help - when they have a gazillion goats! With lots of colors and spots
I am south west of Lake City -


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Annieday said:


> .. Can narrow esc. Be recessive and just show up?


I'm honestly not sure. But if he has a narrow escutcheon then those genetics are definitly going into the kids.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thanks Suzanne - I guess I'm just in denial - he's such a sweetie. Sigh... no more kids for him!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Escutcheons are only one aspect of goat conformation. If you are happy with him otherwise, I would probably keep breeding him. 

Do you have any photos of his dam and sire?


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Escutcheons are only one aspect of goat conformation. If you are happy with him otherwise, I would probably keep breeding him.
> 
> Do you have any photos of his dam and sire?


I have photos of every relative almost- back 5 generations. But I don't know if I should post pics here without permission. They are on his page on my website- I have permission to use them there. 
I only have 3 bucks - he's not the DeLuca Valley buck or the Bellemeadow buck ( don't want to mention any names here as someone wisely said - there are some people that don't like criticism about their babies I would love to hear more of what you think though!

www.bellemeadow.farm


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