# Hello from Arkansas/bottle neck help please!



## FunnyNudders

Hi there from good ole Arkansas. I have 7 mixed/mostly Nubian goats all about ready to give birth in a week to 10 day's. Five of the goats are first timers. I am here because I found this forum while searching info on worming goats. Two of my goats seam to have bottle neck. On one of the goats she has a little bit of a cough and there is swelling and the next day it is totally gone then back again. Her eye lids are pink. She will not eat the wormer pellet as she has never been one for grain. I can't find paste wormer only horse paste wormer.
The other goat had it for three days then we wormed her and within 24 hours the swelling was totally gone..her swelling was pretty bad. Her eye lids are still white. She is eating good.
Both goats are preggers. Please any help would be much appreciated. THANK YOU!


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## russellp

I would get some liquid iron in them ASAP, available at any drug store , used for pregnant women. The barber pole worms that cause bottle jaw will rob the doe of all her iron. You have to put it back.


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## russellp

I use ivomec plus, real expensive but worth every penny. We do 1cc or ml per 10lbs. Orally.


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## FunnyNudders

Oh thank you for your fast reply I am a mess of worry right now. How do I give them that? The white goat that wont eat grain will not eat anything but her grass hay!


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## FunnyNudders

is ivomec wormer or iron pills?


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## russellp

The ivomec is wormer. You can cram iron pills down her throat or get the liquid and squirt onto the back of her throat and hold her mouth shut, but you got to do it.


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## happybleats

I use Ivomac plus...1 cc per 40# just under the skin ..I do not use it oral. and red cell is good to use...she is very anemic..do not stress her...keep her relaxed...Anemia is not a quick fix..it takes time..Vit. B 12 shots will help her too..
here is a aricle to help you understand Bottle jaw : ) 
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/anemiaingoats.html


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## FunnyNudders

But does bottle jaw come and go that fast? The swelling on one goat comes and goes every other day.


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## FunnyNudders

My black goat will eat anything so she wont be a problem to give it to but my white goat will have to get the treatment the hard way it looks like..also her eye lids are not white they are pink. Her swelling was never as bad as the black goat but she will not take the wormer pellets!


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## happybleats

barpole worms cause tiny holes in the intestines...when the goats graze the fluid seeps and settles in the jaw area...when they rest the fluid or most of it settles back internally, this same fluid is also around the heart and lungs...so this is why I say stress free...its hard on them...


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## sweetgoats

First of all, Welcome. Glad you found us here.

OK I think it would really help to get a picture of them and the swelling.

Something else you can do is get Red Cell in them if they are low in iron. 

I know people use the horse dewormer paste. When you use that, you have to use triple the amount that is says. I do not ever use the horse dewormer.


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## GTAllen

Worm with injectable Ivemec like Cathy said. Some Iron 100 and B12 should help also..


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## FunnyNudders

They seam totally healthy and normal. They eat good and there is nothing out of the ordinary. That makes sense though with how you explained that. It does not appear that they are under any stress. Is this something I can get them through myself or will this need a vet? They seam totally fine and grain crazy as always except the white goat who has never eaten grain.


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## happybleats

yes welcome ...sorry I didnt say so..jump right in there....Im glad you found this forum..this place has an awesome group of folks with combine experience that would make a vet blush : ) not to mention support


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## happybleats

You can take care of this...you will need to worm them 3 times 10 days apart then once more at 30 days..I would use red cell a couple of times this week then weekly...until you see nice red eye lids : )


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## FunnyNudders

I thank you all so much. I am in tears, I can not afford a vet to be honest. I will do what you all have said above. I am off to walmart for vit b 12. I have b 6 here but that probably is not the right one. Can I get red cell at walmart to? I will try and get you pictures. It is dark here but we have barn light. How much of each thing should I give them? Should I give it to all 7 goats? Again thank you thank you!


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## happybleats

Ivomac plus is 1 cc per 40# sub Q ( under the skin)
Red cell: 15 cc 2-3 times this week then once weekly

both Red Cell and Ivomac plus are a feed store purchase...walmart will not carry it
I would worm the entire herd ..even if they do not show signs they have all been exposed to barpole worm....I would only use red cell on those who show signs of anemic : )


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## FunnyNudders

I did worm six goats with Dumar goat wormer, it is a pelleted wormer. I gave the larger 3 year old goats enough for a 150 pound goat and the smaller younger goats that are about one and a half years old enough for 75 pounds. My hubby said I probably way under wormed them?


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## happybleats

the problem with pellet wormers is being sure everyone gets what they need, and when fed in feed form the worms can build a resistance to it...Its best to worm them as they need it with a good wormer such as Ivomac, ivomac plus and Valbazen..to name a few..: ) it wont hurt them to be treated with the ivomac plus..even if they had the pellets


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## FunnyNudders

Ok thank you Happybleats, I am going to tractor supply again tomorrow to try and pick up everything suggested. I took pictures but do not know how to add them!=/


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## happybleats

took me a while to figure the pix out too...you click manage attachements...then a box will pop up and you load the pic from there..then once they are loaded you click the yellow pic box here in this box..just above..and put in the pic number..lol..hope that made since and didnt make it harder lol

ok lol..no yellow box in this box..but the one we write in..yellow box with mountain pix on it...Good luck lol


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## FunnyNudders

pics.


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## FunnyNudders

The black goat had a bad head injury at 7 weeks of age, here head got caught under a fence and a horse pawed at her skull doing some bone damage. That she did go to the vet for and she pulled through it but her face is a bit odd shaped and nose tilts to one side a tiny bit. She looks very roman nosed but it is due to her injury mostly. Thanks for the picture help!


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## FunnyNudders

pictures of the two goats just the day before, the larger goat is there mother. The top picture are all three sisters!


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## FunnyNudders

These are my babies (well 4 of them anyway). I lost my home a couple years back and everything else just about but as long as I have my babies I'm good. Thank you ALL for your help, I am SOOOOO thankful to have found this forum and you all!<3


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## happybleats

beautiful goat family : ) the look happy. remember. It take time to get those pink lids back...since none are feeling down..all are eating and acting normal...Im sure they all will recover and do well....Keep us posted..


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## FunnyNudders

I sure will thank you!


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## FunnyNudders

Going today for medicines just want to double check the Red Cell amount to give. So Happybleats you said 15 cc for each goat that has light pink eyelids correct. I have a seringe here that goes up to 6 cc and 15 sounds like a lot is it ok to give all the goats 15cc each even though the younger goats are a lot smaller than the two older goats? Or is it 15 cc per 40 pounds like the ivomac? Thanks in advance!


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## FunnyNudders

Do I give the red cell under the skin to? What does Sub Q mean? Does that mean under the skin?

So far I have down:

1 cc per 40 lbs. under the skin
15 cc 2 to 3 times this week then once weekly
plus Vit B-12 (Not sure how much to give, I'm sure the package will state an amount)
My husband thinks the two older goats are more around 200+ pounds and the smaller ones to be around 150

All the goats this morning are doing well and running around the back of my house as we just let them out into the pasture. They love to run over to the front gate and nibble my rose bushes through the fence. All appears ok on the outside, I just got to get them re-wormed and nice dark pink eyelids back on them. Thank you!


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## happybleats

good morning : ) 
for red cell..I give it orally..only to the ones with white eye lids...if they have color I would just treat for worms..so 15 cc for your black lady who has white lids : )
here is a chart to show you eye color
http://www22.verizon.com/foryourhome/MyAccount/Protected/Overview/MyOverview.aspx
To know how much they weigh..you measure around their girth and use this chart to see how much they weigh
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/weight-chart.htm
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/weight-chart.htm

Ivomac plus is 1 cc per 40# under the skin ( sub Q)


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## happybleats

for Vit. B 12 I believe one adult tablet should work : )


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## FunnyNudders

I could not see your eye chart but found this chart

http://goat-link.com/content/view/110/107/#.UW11ea8o6M8

My goats eye's look like the goat in the picture were it says healthy eyelid color except for the black goat which has a pale pink and the white goat that has the slight cough has a little more pale pink than her sister the black goat . I would say black goat= shade 3/ white goat= shade 4. So that means do not give them red cell correct. To me that picture looks like the goat needs red cell, it does not look like the very top shade of pink for (healthy shade)of pink.


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## happybleats

I would do red cell for a 4 or 5...it wont hurt...: ) anything above 4 I wouldnt treat with red cell..with a number 4 she may only need a few days of it..so just keep checking the lids : )


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## FunnyNudders

Thank you Happybleats. I went to Tractor Supply and they only had the wormer you suggested was for cows The manager warned me against it due to the label states only use for cattle and swine and that use on any other animal could result in an adverse reaction causing death. I still have NOT warmed the white goat. Should I get her some Safe-Guard horse wormer? It is safe for pregnant horses. I have been to 5 places looking for wormer and they only sell pelleted wormer for goats. All the heavy duty wormer seams to be for cattle.
I did get some loose minerals, Vit.b-12 from walmart but no wormer at all. The bottle jaw swelling is gone on both goats but the white goat still has her cough and no wormer. I saw the red cell at Tractor Supply, they have it in the horse section. Is the horse one ok? Do I give it to her in her mouth or by a shot? Thank you!


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## happybleats

The ivomac plus for cows is the same thing...we use it "off label" which means its not made for goats..but goat owners have been using it for years + some..its safe..I promise..the folks at Tractor supply can not advice you to use it off label..
red cell from horse section is what we get...so both are good.. I give it by mouth, some prefer injected...


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## FunnyNudders

Should I separate the two goats away from the rest of the herd? Thank you


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## happybleats

no need..that would only add to their stress....they will be fine all together : )


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## FunnyNudders

happybleats said:


> The ivomac plus for cows is the same thing...we use it "off label" which means its not made for goats..but goat owners have been using it for years + some..its safe..I promise..the folks at Tractor supply can not advice you to use it off label..
> red cell from horse section is what we get...so both are good.. I give it by mouth, some prefer injected...


Oh boy I was afraid of that, ok will try and go back again tonight. It's far to eek. OK so the horse one is safe got it. I am on my way outside to give both goats Vit. B-12 right now. Then to Tractor Supply. Thanks for all your help so very, very much!


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## FunnyNudders

OK got the wormer, wormed both black goat and white goat in the shoulder. Shots went easy but they both acted weird after the shot for about a minute. The white goat backed up all over the place and was limping. I rubbed it out for her and she was fine. The black goat immediately laid down by the fence and stretched her neck out and cried. It freaked me out and hubby to but after we rubbed her sore spot out she was also fine. Is this just a diva Nubian reaction or should I keep my eyes on them?


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## FunnyNudders

What I bought was called Ivomec and not Ivomac I hope that is what you meant!=/


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## FunnyNudders

Ivomec right and not Ivomac??


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## happybleats

yes : ) I believe you need the plus...ivomec plus for barpole


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## FunnyNudders

I got just the regular Ivomec, the guy at the store said the only difference was the plus kills bots. I hope it will do the job. Lots of money for such a small amount!


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## FunnyNudders

On the package it says it is for the following:

lungworms, grubs,sucking lice, mange mites, round worms. 

What do you think? Will it kill off the bottle jaw worms?


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## happybleats

It should do the job..the plus is an added ingredient for the liverfluke worm...: ) 1 cc per 40# just under the skin...expect a reaction..it can sting...some goats dont seem to care while others can be huge babies...I learned here on goat spot to do the shot where the neck meet the body..there is plenty of loose skin and i find the goats hardly react to the injection..: )


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## FunnyNudders

It must have hurt real bad poor babies. The next time I will try a neck shot. =] Thanks again


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## happybleats

Poor babies..I know its hard....get them walking around as soon as you give it...makes it thin out faster...: ) they will be fine...


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## RockinRexonsManchas

What part of Arkansas? I'm near Greers Ferry lake. I usually keep most emergency items on hand like fortified B-12 complex, Bo-Se, C/D&T, ETC. I recently got caught with my pants down LoL so to speak, but if you're near by I can usually help ya out on most first aid & emergency items in a pinch.


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## FunnyNudders

Hello there, I am in Springdale Ar. not sure how far you are but that would be nice to have someone close by. I had a really REALLY amazing goat lady but she has since sold all her herd and is moving away. I'm kinda on my own now and I always leaned on her when ever I needed help.


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## FunnyNudders

OK now a double whammy....the white goat has some kind of bug which I think could only be lice? The wormer should kill this correct? And quite a lot of it is gone now but she still has some. We have been brushing her coat a lot. Should I also use horse fly spray? I think I have Bronco fly spray on hand. If it is sucking lice could this be why she looks like her red cells are down?


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## happybleats

Yep..sounds like lice..and Ivomec will take care of it.....Keep brushing...and the fly spray will help..Lice can bring a goat down too...so yes..if the load is heavy it could caused anemia


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## RockinRexonsManchas

I'm about 3.5 hours from you.  The up side is my hubby comes through Fort Smith every few weeks so in some cases we could use him for a supply/med relay. Sometimes that would mean late night & very early mornings to catch him on his easy through, but it could be done from time to time & on planned things.


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## FunnyNudders

Thanks Happybleats I used Bronco fly spray on her all over, it says it is also for lice. They all seam to be dropping off her now so she loks ALOT better. Both goats no longer have the "Bottle Jaw" look about them. Looking back I think I miss diagnosed the black goat because when I looked at her eyelids I seen white and freaked out but what I actually saw was the white of her eye...dumb I know lol. Now I know exactly what to look for when checking eyelid color. It's funny, I have had horses and dogs all my life and have shown both. The first thing I will look at on either one is their teeth. It's automatic and I do it often without thinking. Now with goats I will always go to the eyelids.=]

RockinRexonManchas thank you for that you are to kind, I wish we lived closer. I also need to learn what to have on hand for myself so when there is an emergency I don't have to wait for a feed store to open!=]


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## happybleats

Oh I have done the same thing...in a panic to try to find whats wrong..once Im calm and look again..oops..eye lids look fine..oh well..it wont hurt to treat them..with the swelling of the jaw : ) Lice can bring them down too..so you are getting both problem taken care of. 

What to have on hand:
RX: Thiamine ( B1)
Bananmine ( fever reducer and antiinflamintory)
Nuflor (good antibiotic)
OTC: B complex...or fortified B complex
Tylan 200 (antibiotic)
Cd Antitoxin
Penicillin 
Goat-link.com among other good web sights have a list of must haves and good to have meds
Glad your ladies are on the mend...


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## FunnyNudders

Yes and thank you for all your help. D o refrigerate these meds? Should I get a small fridge for my feed room?


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## happybleats

I keep most all my meds in the frig...helps them last longer and keeps the clean lol there are a few that say keep room temp. Always remember to bring them to room temp before using..
we use a small frig in the barn


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## FunnyNudders

ok sounds good, yes that I do know...to bring the shot down to room temp before administering them. It gets hot in the Summer do you think the fridge will be ok outside in the feed room?


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## FunnyNudders

The girls today, just look at the difference in milk bag size. I am amazed because the goat that was the sickest has the prize winning bag lo...well at least here at my place anyway.again these are full sisters. I gave everyone birthing hair cuts. Choppy looking but they were like lil bucking broncos. They don't mind the tail but the knickers being cut off they didn't to much care for.


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## happybleats

looking good lol...oh my poor babies look like to used the weed eater on them..some now look mangy lol..hubby bought me horse clippers...yiks..my kids want to hide them from me now lol..oh well..it will grow..in the mean time we hide them when folks come over lol..( just kidding)


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## happybleats

our frig is in the barn...where its dirty and hot all summer..but the floors are concrete..just make sure it has enough breathing space..should be fine


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## FunnyNudders

I used dog clippers, I have groomed dogs for over 20 years....goats are new to me. I was afraid to clipper burn them. I used a number 10 blade.

I have a concrete floor to in my feed shed, I was thinking of a small fridge to sit on a counter top. Just for med's and carrots or something. I will keep that in mind to pick one up at a yard sale of thrift store.=]


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## happybleats

I use a number ten as well...I clip my little Maggie who is a poodle long hair dapple weenie dog cross...(weenipoo) she comes out so much nicer than my goats..but I think I will take them back in there and try again..worse that can happen is they will have not hair lol

Yep a small frig is what we use for meds...the big frig is for our milking supplies : )


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## FunnyNudders

Happybleats I have a question. What does "Posty" mean? I am reading a lot on here about a goat looking posty. Something about the legs, does this mean the hips moving into position for the baby to come?


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## happybleats

http://www22.verizon.com/foryourhome/MyAccount/Protected/Overview/MyOverview.aspx

yes...basically that is what it is...here is a great post to show you ...


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## FunnyNudders

Couldn't see the Verizon link but thank you. I think I still have a week to go on babies!


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## happybleats

lol..how did that get on there lol....it was a link to one of the goat spot threats showing pix 
lol 
Try this one lol

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f197/pic-posty-doe-reference-104180/


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## FunnyNudders

Update on the goats, and thank you all for your help. The white goat and black goat no longer have the bottle jaw look and the white goat no longer has that cough. The black goats coat is dull and ruff but she is starting to shed a lot of that out and she looks shiny underneath..but there is stil a lot of dull coat left that is long like a left overwinter coat. All my other goats are slick and shiney. I have one of my older goats that has started to give way less milk and does not want to eat much of her grain. She is looking REALLY skinny. She was wormed with Ivomec about three to four weeks ago and has picked up some weight. I am getting ready to worm her again tomorrow morning with the same wormer as a follow up. She still seams kinda weak. She fell down while trying to get onto the milk stand. She does not want to go on the milk stand because she has no apetite for grain like she once had. I bought her Calf manna today and she REALLY REALLY REALLY loves it. I think she might have ate the whole bag if I would have let her. Her eye's got real big when she seen me give a little to the other goats, she tried to clobber her way through to try and get more. She seams to like the grass hay we had stored up from last Winter so we have started to free feed her that and she is eating good on that plus she free ranges during the day on fresh grass/weeds. I have been following her around trying to get a stool sample but no success yet. I want to get that tested Monday to see if I am not worming with the correct wormer or if maybe she has cocci? All my goats are pooping fine (little berries) but her poop is a little on the mooshy side. I did notice today though that my little black goat that had the bottle jaw now has VERY RUNNY poop? She has been wormed plenty of times with Ivomec..could this be Cocci? Will that show up in a fecal test? Thanks in advance for your help and Thank you HappyBleats for all your care and advice!


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## teejae

try giving the runny bum one some Vit C tablets about 3 or 4,teejae


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## happybleats

A fecal would be a good idea, regular Ivomec does not get liver fluke , only Ivomec plus and Valbazen takes car of it......what do her lower inner eye lids look like? Barpole and Liver fluke both cause bottle jaw.. a cocci check would be a good idea since adult goat can get cocci when thier immune system is weak. 
If your vet rules out worms...then talk to him about bacteria Diarrah...Neomysin is a great oral antibiotic for that...
Trying to catch a goat pooping is like watching a pot boil!! lol..Ihave followed them around for almost an hour before getting good sample


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## FunnyNudders

Thank you TEEJAE I have Vit. C so will give that to her today.=]
I hope to get a stool sample to the Vet on Monday. Her inner eyelids are light pink. She will only eat Calf Manna and will not really touch her other grain ration. I gave her the red cell shot but I poked the needle threw the other side and I pulled the needle back but as I injected it it still came out the other side. I hurried and closed the opening with my fingers and rubbed the bump until it went mostly down. She cried and was trying to itch at her neck with her back hoof. It must hurt just like the ivomec shot does. She finally just laid down and was fine after that. I had first tried to feed it to her on her calf manna but she ate around it. She at least has a motivation to get into the milk stand which is calf manna. I am going to Copper bolus all my goats Monday. For this goat in question I plan to hide the bolus in a strawberry, she inhales strawberries like nobodies business. I might use bananas for all the other goaties. Thank you, thank you Happy Bleats
Yea lol like watching paint dry lol.


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## happybleats

I give Red Cell orally...They dont mind the taste ..it kind of smells good too lol..my kids think Im wierd but I like the smell lol...
To get poo you have to act like your not watching...look at the sky and whistle , hide the baggy so she cant see it ...:laugh:


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## FunnyNudders

Will try orally then. I like the smell of it to lol. That's why I thought she may eat it..but of course not lol..that would be to easy. 

LOL, no kidding right..little stinkers!


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## FunnyNudders

I noticed this morning that the red cell shot I gave has went to the goats chest and caused a large swelling there, I gave the shot in the neck. The swelling is in the chest just in front of her two front legs making it hard for her to walk. Is this normal with giving red cell as a shot? Will the swelling go away? It is warm to the touch and very sore. I wish I would have just given it orally. =/ On an upside she had WAY more milk this morning, her udder was nice and tight and ready for milking as before it was loose. We only milk her in the mornings now.


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## ogfabby

Can you post a pic of the type of red cell you gave?


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## FunnyNudders

it is the one in the dark purple bottle for horses, yucca flavored vitamin, mineral, iron supplement. Has a yellow horse shoe on it. Will try to get a pic if I can remember how!


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## FunnyNudders

red cell pic


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