# Will Mothers "Discipline" Their Kids?



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm seeing some strange behavior from Bella today with her buckling, Benjamin. Any time he gets his head near hers she will butt him. Not very roughly, but enough to push him away. His belly is full and she's letting him nurse, but I'm just a bit worried about this. We disbudded Benjamin yesterday and she's been a bit put off by the smell of his head, but he's been nursing so I figured it wasn't a big deal, but now I'm not so sure. Is this something to be concerned about?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

A little concerned. Just keep a close eye that she lets him nurse.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

MellonFriend said:


> I'm seeing some strange behavior from Bella today with her buckling, Benjamin. Any time he gets his head near hers she will butt him. Not very roughly, but enough to push him away. His belly is full and she's letting him nurse, but I'm just a bit worried about this. We disbudded Benjamin yesterday and she's been a bit put off by the smell of his head, but he's been nursing so I figured it wasn't a big deal, but now I'm not so sure. Is this something to be concerned about?


As long as she's letting him nurse you're probably ok. I'd watch that he's gaining weight, and not getting rejected. It depends on the doe.

Last year my doe Luna rejected Molly after disbudding no matter what I did. Today Mollywobbles is a spoiled former bottle baby and I wouldn't trade her in.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

She's letting him nurse well so far, even changing her stance so he can get to the teat. She just seems to be offended by the way his head smells. I figured if he was being rejected it would be an on an off change, can it be something that happens slowly?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

MellonFriend said:


> She's letting him nurse well so far, even changing her stance so he can get to the teat. She just seems to be offended by the way his head smells. I figured if he was being rejected it would be an on an off change, can it be something that happens slowly?


Luna was unsure of Molly at first but after a day or so she outright rejected her. I'd just keep a close eye. Like I said, every doe is different. I've had other does act like nothing happened and others who took it slow...it's a wait and see thing. I hope it's all good for little Ben though. How's Arwen?

When's Prim due? Isn't it really soon?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did you shave off the hair around the horn buds?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

ksalvagno said:


> Did you shave off the hair around the horn buds?


Yes I did, but maybe I could have done it more.



GoofyGoat said:


> Luna was unsure of Molly at first but after a day or so she outright rejected her. I'd just keep a close eye. Like I said, every doe is different. I've had other does act like nothing happened and others who took it slow...it's a wait and see thing. I hope it's all good for little Ben though. How's Arwen?
> 
> When's Prim due? Isn't it really soon?


"Arwen's" :lolgoat: doing great. She hasn't been disbudded yet, and I think that might be helping Bella.

Prims on day 149. I went to check on her overnight last night because it was really cold and I wasn't sure if her ligs were softening, but nothing's happened yet. I'm going to get some pictures of her over on my kidding thread.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

I’ve got one who will reject her kids after disbudding, but it is an immediate reaction and she’s not gently butting. For her, we tie her up for about 24 hrs after a kid is disbudded. The tie is long enough so she can eat, drink, and lay down, but short enough so the kid can get out of the way if she starts getting nasty. The kid can still nurse, and she’s usually accepted them within 12-24 hrs of being tied. We also spray their heads with blue kote and alushield to help block the smell. I’ve since read about using lochia from the doe and putting that on the kids head so it smells like her kid again. I’m going to try that this year for my doe.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

She's still letting Benjamin drink, but I still saw some of the same un-motherly behavior today. I'm going to inspect his head tomorrow and see if I can shave off any burnt hair that might be there. Ugh, this is so nerve wracking. I hope this doesn't happen with her doeling too.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

NDinKY said:


> I've got one who will reject her kids after disbudding, but it is an immediate reaction and she's not gently butting. For her, we tie her up for about 24 hrs after a kid is disbudded. The tie is long enough so she can eat, drink, and lay down, but short enough so the kid can get out of the way if she starts getting nasty. The kid can still nurse, and she's usually accepted them within 12-24 hrs of being tied. We also spray their heads with blue kote and alushield to help block the smell. I've since read about using lochia from the doe and putting that on the kids head so it smells like her kid again. I'm going to try that this year for my doe.


So you're planning to save some of her afterbirth discharge (Lochia) to rub on the kids head after you've disbudded him? 
Interesting concept but sounds unsanitary to me. I'll be interested to hear more.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

MellonFriend said:


> She's still letting Benjamin drink, but I still saw some of the same un-motherly behavior today. I'm going to inspect his head tomorrow and see if I can shave off any burnt hair that might be there. Ugh, this is so nerve wracking. I hope this doesn't happen with her doeling too.


It's hard to watch your doe act like this. I was so frustrated with Luna at first, but I also knew it could happen I just wish it hadn't. So i understand.
How's Prim. Thought I'd check in before bed.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Udder's looking fuller and fuller. Ligs are lower, but still hard. We're going to check on her every three hours over night to make sure we don't miss anything. Thanks for checking in, I really appreciate it.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

After you disbud, give the kid back rump first, so the first thing mom smells is her kid's rear end. Then stick him under her at her udder. 

I try and grab kids to disbud when they first wake up from a nap and are hungry. After the disbud, they are real eager to eat. The mom only smells the rear end, so she doesn't realize his head may be different.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> So you're planning to save some of her afterbirth discharge (Lochia) to rub on the kids head after you've disbudded him?
> Interesting concept but sounds unsanitary to me. I'll be interested to hear more.


I'm not planning on saving any, but most of my does have discharge on and off for 2-3 weeks, well past the point of disbudding. I'm not going to put it on the freshly burned area, but maybe behind that area, on the ears, and on the nose. That doe is such a jerk about her kids being disbudded, I'm willing to try it. She's the only one I've had who rejects her kids. At least she gets over it quickly.

We do the butt first introductions too. I try not to let the dams smell their burnt heads.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

NDinKY said:


> I'm not planning on saving any, but most of my does have discharge on and off for 2-3 weeks, well past the point of disbudding. I'm not going to put it on the freshly burned area, but maybe behind that area, on the ears, and on the nose. That doe is such a jerk about her kids being disbudded, I'm willing to try it. She's the only one I've had who rejects her kids. At least she gets over it quickly.
> 
> We do the butt first introductions too. I try not to let the dams smell their burnt heads.


Thanks, I was wondering how you were going to do it. Keep us posted on how it works please.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Goats Rock said:


> After you disbud, give the kid back rump first, so the first thing mom smells is her kid's rear end. Then stick him under her at her udder.
> 
> I try and grab kids to disbud when they first wake up from a nap and are hungry. After the disbud, they are real eager to eat. The mom only smells the rear end, so she doesn't realize his head may be different.


I actually did present him butt first. I think if I hadn't he would have been full on rejected.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

I had a first freshener who was low on our goat-em pole, friendless, and tried to pull rank on other does' babies before kidding herself who was dumb about her own kid and wanted to spar with her kid. She was happy to continue feeding the kid, but was playing rough. I scolded her soundly the first time I saw it, and the lightbulb finally clicked and luckily she stopped. Not exactly the same situation, but thought I'd mention it since yours is a FF, too.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

singinggoatgirl said:


> I had a first freshener who was low on our goat-em pole, friendless, and tried to pull rank on other does' babies before kidding herself who was dumb about her own kid and wanted to spar with her kid. She was happy to continue feeding the kid, but was playing rough. I scolded her soundly the first time I saw it, and the lightbulb finally clicked and luckily she stopped. Not exactly the same situation, but thought I'd mention it since yours is a FF, too.


Thanks @singinggoatgirl, I appreciate all the advice I can get. I'm just so confused about the situation. I saw her this morning acting like she didn't want her babies to drink, even her doeling, but then again the babies weren't trying very hard. They also seemed to be driving her nuts trying to jump on her while she was eating hay so maybe she just doesn't like to take any crap? Then this afternoon I saw both babies drinking long, so I don't know what to think. Maybe because she's the herd queen she's not used to having her personal space violated.

I wonder if I should start babies on a bottle just in case. I do _not_ want to pull them even if she flat out rejects them. I would rather do a, tie Bella up and let them drink type of thing, but if the babies still need milk overnight, it would probably be easier for me to bring them inside for night time and bottle feed them at night. Opinions?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

If she’s letting them good long drinks I think you’re probably ok. It never hurts or teach the babies to take the bottle and it’s kinda fun too. I’d give Bella the benefit of the doubt for now though. Kids can be annoying


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Okay, so if I want to teach them to take a bottle, how would I go about doing that as far as milking Bella goes? Can I just milk her at any time? How full should I leave her udder? She always seems to have a lot of milk.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

If you’re just going to supplement, you can milk anytime and refrigerate it till you need it. She’ll have plenty right now because the babies are so young. As they get older you might switch to the separate overnight, milk in the morning then turn them all out together routine.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Okay, good to know! I'll try to get Bella on the stand and see how she milks. :happygoat:

Since I am supplementing, how often should I offer the babies a bottle, and how much?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

MellonFriend said:


> Okay, good to know! I'll try to get Bella on the stand and see how she milks. :happygoat:
> 
> Since I am supplementing, how often should I offer the babies a bottle, and how much?


 I'd go easy to begin with, a couple of ounces a few times a day until they get used to the bottle, then you can adjust from there. They might not take to the bottle straight away so no sense in wasting good milk. It's time to learn to make soap too


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I have hope that they will take a bottle pretty easily. They are very mouthy. Sucking on my coat is the norm for them so I'm hoping if I sneak in something that actually has milk, they might catch on pretty quickly.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I have tried teaching kids to take a bottle when they have a mother feeding them and it hasn't gone over very well. It just made the babies run away if I approached with a bottle in my hand!

Keep an eye on things and hopefully they'll resolve soon. Mama goats DO discipline their kids, but it's not the same as the partial rejection you're currently seeing. But when it comes to general discipline, if mama thinks her kids have had enough to drink, she'll walk away when they try to nurse, and if they are persistent she'll kick them in the face or even turn and bite their ears or tails. ("Mama said NO!") Mama goats are generally very indulgent for the first week or two ("You're so cute--you can climb on me, you can chew my ears, you can take a drink any time!"). But as the kids get bigger and more demanding, the good mothers start setting limits to their behavior.

My best mamas are also the best disciplinarians. They teach their kids boundaries and respect without ever going overboard. Those are the mamas whose teats never get bitten, whose udders never get butted, and who demand that their kids nurse them evenly on both sides. Some does adopt a particular stance that says "Come and get it!" and the kids learn to race over and grab a drink before mama walks off. They learn not to pester her for milk unless she's inviting them.

Good luck! I hope your mama fully takes her baby back soon! I haven't had one reject a kid after disbudding yet, and I hope I never encounter it.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

Getting them on the bottle while they’re still nursing mama is an exercise in patience. The ones I’ve supplemented generally take multiple tries and it’s usually when they’re about 2 weeks old that they finally accept it (when they’re hungry and getting outcompetes at mama). The dams will regulate how much they drink at a time to keep the kids from overindulging.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Thanks for the advice, @Damfino and @NDinKY . (highfive)

I have seen her multiple times today let them both nurse, and then at other times not want them to. The butting Benjamin away _might _be better, but I don't want to get my hopes up.



GoofyGoat said:


> They might not take to the bottle straight away so no sense in wasting good milk. It's time to learn to make soap too


Well no worries about wasting milk. My first time milking didn't go very well. I got maybe a teaspoon, possibly a half a teaspoon (embarrassed). I think there must be something wrong with my technique. I'll close my fingers around the teat and a squirt will come out, but then I do it again and nothing happens. Any advice?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Are you letting go of the “ring” to let the teat fill up again?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Yep. I'm closing the top of the teat with my thumb and first finger and then following with my next two fingers. Then, I let go and try to do it again and nothing happens :shrug:. Is it maybe that I'm just trying it again too fast? I wasn't alternating teats, could that be it?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Your thumb and first finger act like a flood gate, you open them to let the dam open to fill the teat, then you close them so the milk doesn’t go back into the udder. Your middle ring and pinkie push the milk out the teat then you open the flood gate again, close off the milk in the teat and repeat. 
Just remember...fill, close, squeeze , open ...Repeat.
I hope that made sense, I’m better at showing rather than describing.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

That sounds like it makes sense (thumbup). We'll see what I can do tomorrow.


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## Cold Creek Minis (Mar 3, 2021)

@MellonFriend As everyone said trying to get a kid that has been on mom to take a bottle can sometimes be very hard. October 2019 I had a doe give birth to triplets. She was a very good mama but I noticed at about a week old her littlest one was getting skinny and being pushed away from the udder from the stronger ones so I decided I would try her on a bottle just to give her more. She would have none of it. She wanted mama. I tried for a week to get her to take the bottle as well as taking the others away so just she could drink. But she passed away anyway. 
Another doe has taken to being very standoffish to her second set of twins for the second time. This is her third time with kids. She had a single girl her first kidding. Abandoned her twins the next year. she is finally beginning to come to terms that this set is hers and she can take care of them both. I think twins confuse her but I also have to keep her away from her first kid who is 3 years old because if I don't she will try to feed her instead. Yes, you read that right. she will try to feed her 3 year old and the 3 year old is always willing. Weird.


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## Cold Creek Minis (Mar 3, 2021)

Also my herd queen is very stern with her kids especially the bucklings. But she is a very good mother. Sometimes all she has to do is look at them and they will go lay down. If they listen then she makes a noise and then they go but back talk all the way.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Good to know @Cold Creek Minis , I appreciate all the knowledge I can get.

That is strange about the three year old. These dang goats must think it's funny when we think they are weird. :crazy:


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> Yep. I'm closing the top of the teat with my thumb and first finger and then following with my next two fingers. Then, I let go and try to do it again and nothing happens :shrug:. Is it maybe that I'm just trying it again too fast? I wasn't alternating teats, could that be it?


It takes practice and every doe is different. You'll find you need slightly different hand positioning for each doe, and different technique depending on teat size and placement. They can also be stubborn about holding milk back for their kids. Also try bumping the udder like the kids do. That can help with the let down.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I just rewatched some milking videos and I think I'm just not doing it quite right. Her teats are smaller than those on the videos and I think I need to grip higher up on the teat. I also am ending up squirting the milk on my hand, and that just can't be right. :bonk:


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

With May, who has small teats, I grip a little above the top of the teat, which makes the squirts bigger. @CaramelKittey told me about that. I used to get such cramps in my hands, now it is second nature. You will get there!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Do you have a picture of her udder?  Is it tight? And how is she behaving on the milking stand?  And, how old are the kids? One of my does has two 6 week old kids, and she doesn’t let them nurse all the time. Sometimes she pushes them away as a means of weaning them off. I think she started doing this around maybe 4 weeks, but not too sure about that.  We are and have been offering the kids grain and hay.


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## Cold Creek Minis (Mar 3, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> Good to know @Cold Creek Minis , I appreciate all the knowledge I can get.
> 
> That is strange about the three year old. These dang goats must think it's funny when we think they are weird. :crazy:


Imagine going out and seeing such a large goat on her knees trying to drink and the other just standing there. She is bigger than her mama! :shrug:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Of course they do, my does start walking away from their bucklings at about a week old. If they didn't I might cull them. Bucklings can drain an udder in about 30 seconds. The dominant buckling never cares if his sister gets enough. 
A true dairy doe won't like her bucklings at all. They do feed them more than you think though.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

CaramelKittey said:


> Do you have a picture of her udder?  Is it tight? And how is she behaving on the milking stand?  And, how old are the kids? One of my does has two 6 week old kids, and she doesn't let them nurse all the time. Sometimes she pushes them away as a means of weaning them off. I think she started doing this around maybe 4 weeks, but not too sure about that.  We are and have been offering the kids grain and hay.











I don't think I would categorize her udder as tight. She did pretty well on the stand unless she ran out of her grain. I did use a tie on one of her legs to keep it out of my way. The kids are a week old yesterday, so way to early for weaning which is why this behavior concerned me. I think we are probably okay, though. Last night when I got up overnight two times to check on Prim, I saw both babies drinking long and hard and Bella showed no "inappropriate" behavior. I think she's probably just a strict mamma. I will keep trying to milk her because I want to get my technique down before I actually have to milk her.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Keep feeing his tummy to see if he gets enough. As I learned on TGS, it should be flat and firm, not sunken and not round.
But it sounds like you are all doing great!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Of course they do, my does start walking away from their bucklings at about a week old. If they didn't I might cull them. Bucklings can drain an udder in about 30 seconds. The dominant buckling never cares if his sister gets enough.
> A true dairy doe won't like her bucklings at all. They do feed them more than you think though.


I don't think I can agree with this. I mean, I agree that they start walking away from their bucklings at a pretty young age, and a good doe will make sure her doeling isn't pushed off by her brother. I saw a particularly clear example of this last year when my little doeling Butterfly broke her pelvis at three days old. Her mama never rejected her and in fact took extra care to make sure brother George didn't hog all the milk or push his invalid sister around. But she still loved George and took good care of him too. In my opinion, a good mama cares for all her kids even if she's a "true" dairy doe. Caring might include extra discipline for the bigger, greedier ones, and it definitely includes weaning precocious bucklings early (I've seen that a few times!). But I don't think it means she does doesn't like her bucklings. It just means she has boundaries.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

A true dairy doe with the butter soft udder, super fine skin, and easily triggered milk let down, is usually destroyed by buck kids. The super fine skin can't handle the pulling and the teeth.
I have had 2 that were injured so badly that they had to be put down, just from feeding big bucklings.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Guess it just depends on the doe. I've had a couple with the super-soft udder, fine skin, and easy milk let-down who did great with bucklings. I do watch my buck kids though and if they start to get to get rough with mama, I make sure to put mom on the stanchion every morning and hold the boys while they nurse so I can control their behavior. With really rough ones I'll do it in the evening too, and once they get used to the twice/day routine they quit pestering their mom for milk all the time. 

But my does with the udders most similar to what you describe have had gentlemen bucklings. I had one doe with super-thin teats who did amazing with her little bucklings, but unfortunately her teats blew out after we started milking. Her teats couldn't handle the "roughness" of being hand milked or the pressure of a 12-hour fill, but they were small, soft, and amazing while she was nursing kids. Unfortunately once her teats blew out she started tearing the skin open on scrub oak and the teats blew up more and ended up scarred and uneven (though still super-easy to milk because of their large size, buttery softness, and open orifices). It was very sad to see them like that though. I often wish I had never milked her and just let her be a baby mama because she was amazing at it, and she made the most mellow, sweet, gentle boys.


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