# Doeling with lump on jaw



## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I'm really hoping this isn't CL. This doeling that I have is a French Alpine/Nubian cross, is about 2 months old, and has had a small lump on her jaw I guess for maybe a month at most. At first I thought maybe she just poked herself on something and it would go away on it's own, but it hasn't. It has only gotten slightly bigger than it was when I first noticed it, and it's about the size of a smallish grape, I guess. (Can't think of anything else to compare it to) It is soft, and she doesn't seem to be in pain at all from it. She doesn't flinch when I touch it, either. I tried to feel the inside of her mouth, to see if it was a thorn or something, but couldn't feel anything, and she nearly bit my finger off in the process. 
We have an older F. Alpine Doe (Not this doeling's dam) that had a lump on her jaw for ages; I was worried that it was CL, but didn't seem to bother her. And also it would come and go; one day no lump, next day rather a large lump and so on- sometimes as large as a golf ball on her cheek, and sometimes both cheeks-so we didn't take her to the vet for quite a while. (Our vet really doesn't know much about goats, either, so we usually try to figure it out ourselves.) But when we finally did take her, they tried to feel in her mouth; nothing, they stuck a needle in it, and got nothing but saliva. So eventually, he said it was probably a hunk of grass in her cheek that she just keeps there like a chipmunk. We thought that souded reasonable, so we left it at that. But I think it could be a salivary cyst, from what I've read, though I can't figure out how to tell the difference from CL.
I'm also wondering if this doeling could have a salivary cyst. I really hope it's something easily solved, because we are going to sell her and her sister to some friends-maybe this week- and I don't want to give them unhealthy animals. I've been trying to study up on it, but I'm stumped. Any help will be greatly appreciated. 
Sorry this is such a long post, but I didn't want to leave anything out.:greengrin:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Is she still nursing or bottle feeding? Search on milk goiter.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Yes, she is nursing, but is one of triplets, so I don't think she's getting that much milk. Also, we had a buckling -from this same round of kids that had milk goiter, and this does not look the same at all. Whereas his was under his chin, where the jaw and neck meet, and was larger, hers is very small and is on the side of her jaw, near the back. So I don't think that could be it.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Strange ! Im very interested to hear what the group thinks about this.
I hope you find out what it is and its easily treatable.
Is it possible to post a picture of it ? That can hopefully make diagnosing it easier.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I am thinking salivary cyst, or maybe a splinter. That is my best guess ... any pictures?


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I was thinking splinter too. I guess it might be a bit early for her to have a possible tooth problem or irritation ? 
Because it doesnt bother her when its touched kinda omits certain things. Could it be a bug bite of some sort that she is having a reaction to ? So many critters out there now since its warming up and everything turning green and flowering.
Maybe she got into a plant or something ?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thanks for all the interest. I will try to get some pictures sometime today. I guess it could be a bug bite, but it's seems like it's been a long time for it to still be there. I was going to say that I didn't think she could have been into any plants, as we keep them penned almost all the time, but we have let them out to graze a little more lately, as there is a lot of green grass around. Saves some hay costs. 
One thing about the other doe I was talking about is that her lump really didn't feel like it was an abcess on the outside of her skin; it seemed more like it was something in her mouth, like the wad of grass. This doeling's lump seems more like it's something on the outside.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

*Pictures*

This is the best I could do. It's so hard to take pictures of goats! As you can see, it's a pretty small lump. I really don't know what to think of it. Maybe these will help.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

lance it and have the gunk tested, thats the only way to know. You can do this yourself and send it in a vial to WADDL


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

How does one go about lancing it? I don't like doing that kind of thing, but I can, if it's neccesary. Would that cost very much to do? And do you have to send it in some kind of special packaging?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

One more thing: If I do send it in, should I try to get my other goats tested at the same time? Is that how you do it? None of our goats have been tested for CL before.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

If you lance..i would give a tetanua antittoxin shot first...wear gloves..use a sharp new razar..holding a wad of paper towels at the sight, make an insistion, have an clean container ready to squeeze some gunk in..finish squeezing the gunk out and fkush with iodine and clean her entire jaw well...if the gink is cheesy..keep the wound open by flushin a few times a.day for three days at least or until.the walls of the cyst has thinned then allow to close ..best of luck..this does not look lije.cl to me.but testing will be the beat way to know


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Sorry fat finger misspells again..


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Also be sure all towels, gloves, razor, evertjing gets burned ot at least put in a zip lock baggie ...use wads of paper towels to catch everthing...


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

I also would take her off your premises. Say, a ver office.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Good luck with her . She is such a pretty little girl


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

At the very least a concret area...if this is indeed CL you dont want any gunk in your dirt..just try to keep it in the wad of paper towels..its small so should be easy....im thinking a savarlary gland...but checking is good


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Do you think I should get the whole herd tested at the same time? Is it very expensive? How much would it be for just the one?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you can send a blood sampl of each goat to be tested for CL CAE and Johnes disease....it depends where you send it..its about $5 to $8 to test for each CL CAE ..I have never tested for Johnes so Im not sure how much that cost..you draw blood from the juglar in a clean vaccum tube. You can get these from your vet or have him draw the blood...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thank you for the info! Very helpful.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

how are things today?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Well, I'm kind putting it off. I'm not sure we have the facilities to isolate her after I lance it, and I'm thinking maybe I'll just take her to the vet and let them do it, if it doesn't cost too much. I really hate doing that kind of thing. We're pretty busy, too. Sigh.
How long would she need to be isolated after lancing, and how far away?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if it is CL then she will need to be isolated until it completly dry off with no chance of the scab falling off and oozing...at her age and the locationIm really not convinced its CL...but being careful is wise...once its lanced you will want to keep it flushed 2-3 times a day with iodine for 3-4 days or until the wallof the cyst is thinned..and no more icky goop comes out...do this in an area easily cleaned and always catch everything in a wad a paper towels..keep a zip lock baggie to throw everything away...wear gloves..use a new syringe for flushing each time... I had a vet tell me once years ago to just leave it (after he lanced) and so I did and it returned larger...better to go through the trouble to flush until thinned now then deal with it again..


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

*The lump is gone! Sort of..*

Okay, weird thing happened. I was getting all bothered about this lump on her jaw; I even called the vet this morning to ask if they would or could do it for me, but the lady who answered the phone didn't even know what CL was. I know the vet knows about it, but still, you get the idea. I was thinking, oh boy, now I've gotta do it myself.Well, I was trying to work up the courage to lance it, and now it's gone! Well, kind of. I noticed yesterday without really thinking about it, that the lump was a bit bigger, so today I went out with a camera, in case it was a lot bigger, so I could post it on here and see what you guys thought of it, and now it looks like it has popped under the skin. The original lump, -which was small and round , your typical abcess-looking thing- is still there, but just barely, and it looks like whatever was in it has drained into her neck. On one side of her neck it's kind of swollen and hanging down, as though there's liquid in it, but only on the side that the lump was on. It now looks a lot like milk goiter or maybe even bottle jaw, but I know it's not, because it started out with that lump. It's very soft, by the way, and she still doesn't mind me feeling it.
I took pictures of it, and I will post them as soon as I can so you can tell me what you think. What is it?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if it burst internally the fluid could have settled in her under jaw..sounds more like an absest than CL which is good but Ill wait to see the pic


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

also sometimes the person behind the desk at the vet is clueless..they are not vets so I would ask to talk to the vet..


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I know that's true, but frankly I don't know if the vet knows much more. They really only deal with cattle and horses around here. I would talk to him if there were an emergency of course.Still waiting on access to thebcomputer to post pics!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

*Pictures*

Here we go; what do ya'll think? As you can see, it's not huge or anything. Think it was a bug bite?
It's hard to tell in the pics; she wouldn't let me get a picture of the other side, but it's not swollenon the other side at all.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

It may have been asked already, but are you worming regularly?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

looks like a Tooth Abcess??...if you can...may need help..being super careful because those back teeth are very sharp..open her mouth wide and feel on those back teeth for a loose or rotting tooth...also could be she has a sticker or seed stuck in there festering...you could also place a piece of wood between her top and bottom jaw to keep her from chomping down on you...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thank you for the advice. Sorry I didn't answer sooner; I'm trying to get the hang of being able to tell by the icons if there are any new posts, and for some reason I though that nobody had replied today.For some reason, this evening when we milked, the lump was back more like it was before, and the swelling on her neck had gone down a bit, though it was still there a bit. It's strange, she doesn't act like she's in pain at all. But then again, goats are so tough, it's really hard to tell when they're hurt.
I will try to fell around in her mouth. Good tip about putting a piece of wood in there! Hopefully it's a sticker.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

> It may have been asked already, but are you worming regularly?


Yes, this round of kids was wormed with Panacur at 1 month, and Cydectin a few days ago.


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## fibromom (Mar 31, 2013)

CL/lump on chest questions but first, does this site have archives where I can search for topics? I am SURE that most if not all of my questions have been asked and answered SOMEWHERE ON HERE! I hate to clog up the site with repeat questions.

Do goats get sick/develop "issues" easily? (splinters/slivers in their mouths, necks, etc or goiter or anemia from worms or CL or etc etc etc?) I thought they were some of the hardiest domesticated animals on earth but, whenever I google stuff about goats, tons of info on SICK GOATS comes up. I'm getting very nervous.

This issue of CL: HOW CAN THIS BE? How can goats, animals that most of the world depends on for food and dairy, have an illness that is not preventable nor curable??? I'm so scared that my Gator (new mommy 3 weeks ago today) has CL. We don't have the $ to run to a vet every time things happen on our little hobby farm. We don't even go to the dr ourselves! (No ins... self-employed.)

Now, about my Gator. Does anyone know how much the test for CL typically costs? Is there a lab I can get a sample kit and send it off to if my local vet doesn't test for it? What's the point if it does come back positive? Is she only contagious when the wound is present? (Her lump is still there but, when I incised it the 2nd time, only a small amt of blood came out. I'm guessing I didn't go deep enough. After the 1st very successful incising, on the 2nd and 3rd days after the 1st huge "cheese like" white discharge (odorless) came out, I could hear AIR when I squeezed the sore. I'm thinking I might need to cut deeper and put some gauze in there as a drainage system for awhile to keep the incision open. I want to keep her and babies separated from everyone else but it's impossible. (Fencing/cross-fencing issues. Ma'am, my Oberhasli/LaMancha cross leaps over the 5 ft fence with the greatest of ease!!!) 

A 2nd thought I had is that MAYBE the pus wound was at the same location as the lump but wasn't the cause of the lump. Maybe the lump that is still there is a thyroid thing? It's on her chest, not on her neck. The girls have been eating loose minerals for about the past month ... the second I learned about goiter from my neighbor.

I'm so disappointed. I want these beautiful animals to be free from illness and living happy, fun lives while blessing me with their silliness. However, if we're going to be doing nothing but constantly playing "vet doctor," this isn't going to work. Not sure I've mentioned on this thread that I'm disabled. Having a small "therapy" farm is what keeps me going but I'm not up for constant doctoring.

Please give me some good direction. I'm SO GLAD you are here.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

> does this site have archives where I can search for topics?


Yes, you can go to the bottom of the page, and there's a thing called "forum jump", where you can go to whichever category you need. And in the menu at the top of the page, where it says "My account", there's a drop-down menu, and you can go to "subscribed threads" to see the threads that you have posted on on are subscribed to.


> Do goats get sick/develop "issues" easily?


As for this, though goats are susceptible to many diseases, that doesn't neccesarily mean they are going to get sick all the time. Most goats _are_ very hardy- some breeds more than others- but the main thing to worry about are worms. All animals get worms, and with goats you just have to be sure to do it regularly. And CL, though a big concern to some people, is rather rare I believe. 
Our goats have had very few problems, since we got them, and it's been 5 or 6 years, I guess. Don't worry about it too much! I mean, humans are susceptible to millions of diseases and illnesses, and we're still alive! Take heart, and enjoy having your goats; they are some of the most wonderful animals to have.
P.S. I think it's possible that your goat _may_ have CL, but I don't know a lot about it, so you should post your questions about it in the right category- start a new thread.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Any new thoughts on my doeling anyone?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I really tried to feel around in her mouth this morning, but she wouldn't quit moving around the whole time, and trying to bite me. I tried the piece of wood trick, but she somehow still managed to chomp with her back teeth, so I only got a quick feel, and I really couldn't tell what I was feeling, or if there was anything abnormal back there. Today the lump is completely back to the way it was. I think maybe I'll just take her to the vet and see what he thinks.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I think that is wise...A vet should be able to tel you if that is a tooth abcess or not...do keep us posted...

as for sickly goats..I think we just see and hear about those because of our searches and forums..most people get on here in need of help...if we were to do a survey we would find way more goats who never been ill or at least nothing too serious...they really are hardy animals...not tin can eater like some like to think lol..but hardy none the same....my husband is always telling me I spoil my too much...making them sissies lol..and in a way its true...but Im not into the whole.." let the strong survive" I like to help the weak too..lol...


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## Lily's Mom (Jun 8, 2012)

She's a pretty girl! Hope all turns out well!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I will keep you posted! May not be able to get to the vet for a day or two; gonna be really busy, but I'll try to get her there as soon as possible.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

*Okay, I could use some help*

Well, we've been _really _busy, and now it's the weekend, so I can't take her to the vet, but I'm getting a little worried about her. This morning the lump was the same as it was in the first pictures I posted; maybe a little bigger, but not much. Then this evening I went out and it has swollen back up, like in the second pictures I posted, only a bit bigger, and I think a little less...squishy than the first time. She's eating, I think drinking-though I haven't paid attention, to be honest- grazes all the time, and otherwise acts normal. Could it be bottle-jaw? It doesn't look like what I've seen of it. I've tried researching this, but all I got was a headache.









Or maybe worms? should I give her another dose of wormer? I really don't want to take her to the vet; they charge like a $150 just to look at your animal on the weekend.







I really hope you can help me. Is there anything I can give her in the meantime? I think we have some penicillin, and vitamin b shots we could give her.
Really hope this is nothing serious.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

IMO it sounds like some sort of abcess that is continuing to drain into her mouth. It must have ruptured enough for it to drain out and not grow. This is a wild guess mind you.

Im thinking a pen shot would be in order , but I would rather her what others with more knowledge suggest.

Im really hoping you can get a vets opinion on this very soon.
Whatever it is , it needs to be seen. It can go from not bothering her to a flaming fever and worse. An infection is a infection , none are good and all need to be treated accordingly. Guess work isnt really the ideal way to go with this sort of thing. Just my :2cents:
Prayers she recovers quickly for you :hug: she is really such a cutie


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

> IMO it sounds like some sort of abcess that is continuing to drain into her mouth. It must have ruptured enough for it to drain out and not grow. This is a wild guess mind you.
> 
> Im thinking a pen shot would be in order , but I would rather her what others with more knowledge suggest.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your support. I'm thinking maybe tooth abcess myself. Unfortunately the vet won't be in till Tuesday, but I think she can hold out till then. She's acting completely normal, so I don't think she's in a lot of pain. I'll see what others say, then maybe give a pen. shot to tide her over till Tues.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if she has bottle jaw the swelling will be directly under the chin like a double chin..her eyes will be very pale if not white (bottom inner eye lid) and she will feel bad, Bottle jaw is fluid leaking from tiny holes the barpole worm leaves in the intestines. when she grazes the fluid seaps out and settles in the jaw..when she is at rest the fluid seaps back..the scary thing is this same fluid is also around the heart and lungs..goats have died from being chased down to worm them do to the pressure of the fluid..it is important to keep them calm and not stressed out until they heal....I would give a check up just to give peace of mind....however the abcess would have nothing to do with bottle jaw..
here is an eye chart to compair with and pictures of bottle jaw...best wishes
http://goat-link.com/content/view/15/111/#.UaFy42SDQxc


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

beginning Pen G will not hurt but do complete the course for no less than five days...If she does have bottle jaw Ivomec plus 1 cc per 40# sub q 3 times ten days apart then once more in 30 days...Red cell and Vit B 12 shots will be needed to restore iron ...Nutra drench and B complex as a support...But since she is acting normal other than the abcess and swelling...Im still leaning toward tooth abcess..:think:


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Yeah, it doesn't look at all like bottle jaw to me. We had a buckling once that got it, and he acted sick. You could tell he felt bad, and the swelling was different. She seems happy; I watched her for a while yesterday- she eats, drinks, her stool is perfectly normal and she was running and jumping with the others. And her eyelids are not that white. They're not super pink, but they are no worse than the rest of the herd, and they're all acting fine.
We only have Cydectin right now; I posted some questions about that in another forum; do think I could give her another dose?
We have thiamine hydrochloride, maxi-b 1000, Pen G, and B shots(I don't know if they're B12, but I suspect so). Which of these would be best for me to give her?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

for a tooth abscess I woud give the Pen G......sounds like other than the swelling..she is perfect : )


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

> for a tooth abscess I woud give the Pen G......sounds like other than the swelling..she is perfect : )


 Thanks. I'll ask my dad to do it when he gets home; me and my sister do almost all the goat chores, but we let him give the shots. (while one of us holds the goat still of course)


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

he most likely knows this..but just in case...when giving Pen always pull back on the plunger to be sure you are not in vien, if you see blood, readjust and try again...Pen in the blood can put a goat down..


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

*Yay! good news!*

Well, we finally got Molly to the vet today. (I guess I never told y'all her name is Molly).
He pulled out a little of what was in the abcess with a needle and looked at it -with a microscope I guess- and said it was nothing but scar tissue, probably from an older abcess, that came from a thorn or something. :leap:He said that there might be a thorn in there still, but that it's walled off by now, and should not be a problem. The swelling, he said, was the body's way of dealing with it, and shouldn't happen anymore; if anything the lump will get smaller over time, and probably get so small that no one but us who know about it would notice it. 

I'm so happy that it's not CL, and even happier that I don't have to lance anything. 
Thank you all so much for your help and advise; I'm sure I would've freaked out a lot more if it weren't for you.
Especially thank you Cathy, from HappyBleats farm! You're always ready to help someone in need. I see your name all over the forum, helping everyone you can. I am very grateful to you, and thanks for helping me to learn.
:hug:


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## jddolan (Mar 31, 2013)

That's great news


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Your very welcome!!! Good news indeed....Im so happy it all turned out...


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

That's great news ! I'm so happy for Molly and you 
And I agree , Cathy is awesome


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