# LGD's fighting... uh oh...



## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Since sighting a mountain lion last week, I have obtained two great pyr/akbash crosses. Both were raised on goats together with working parents, are brothers, and are good with chickens/poultry/children/baby goats/adult goats. BUT they have been fighting. And not just play fighting. Both are now limping. Caboose (the bigger boy) has two nasty (but not too deep) cuts on his right front leg, and Google (the smaller boy) has some as well. They act like they've been doing this for a while, except they get along most of the time. Caboose doesn't let Google eat or drink, which leads me to believe is why Google is so much smaller. It seems like a dominance thing from what I understand of dog behavior, except Caboose is clearly in charge... and he continues to beat up Google. 

Is there anything that can cause this? Will they stop? They are both intact, but are scheduled to be fixed later this week. There is no lack of food, water, or space. Both dogs are very sweet, and absolutely what I was looking for, but they're still 'puppies' (BIG 8 month old boys). They've been separated for the time being as well, and I can keep them apart until they're fixed.

Thanks ~~


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Are they litter mates? My two litter mate brothers will fight over food. It could get pretty bad. So now I feed them separately to stop this. And what I mean by separately is one comes in the house to eat and the other eats on the porch. The bully eats in the house and doesn't get let out until the other has eaten his food. This eliminates 95% of their serous fighting. They are both fixed. So neutering yours will help some but if they fight over food that may not go away with neutering.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

They are litter mates. I'm not entirely sure they're fighting over food, which is the problem... They go at it when they aren't eating. It looks like the bigger boy is asserting his dominance, but the smaller brother doesn't fully submit.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It is my understanding that it is never good to keep litter mates together. Can you put them in different areas?


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

They are in different areas currently. 

Also, they are both pretty lethargic (although this may be the great pyr attitude? Just lying around sleeping a lot) and the little guy is off, for lack of better words. They have an appointment scheduled for Saturday, but if the smaller boy doesn't improve by the middle of the week, he'll go in early. I washed all of their cuts with an antiseptic wound cleanser, put iodine on the cuts, and gave them some penicillin. Neither are interested in food, but this may be the stress from coming here. I saw Caboose (bigger one) eat a bit, but I haven't seen Google eat at all.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

As they grow older and develop , you may not be able to keep them together. The one pup may also be deprived of food they need as they are growing and developing. I personally wouldn't keep two intact males together. Sometimes it works , but more often then not it doesn't . Most males fight till its settled , females fight to the end.
And if they are growing aggressive towards each other , it can escalate and make it dangerous for anyone to interfere. Another thing is redirected aggression , that alone can cause huge upset and bloodshed.

To be perfectly honest , I would be scared to keep them together and with my goats , just saying…I know LGD are totally different and i don't know much about them , but thats my two cents here.

Good luck , you have a awful lot to worry about over there


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

I think it's the age combined with the fact that they are litter mates. I had a brother/sister pair that would fight really bad during feeding time. I had to separate them but the male would still stare the female down and then if I wasn't around he'd try to guard both pans of feed and attack her whenever she got close. He was fine with me taking his food but it got to the point where he was biting the goats ears because they would get close to the food. When the babies came he would steal them from the moms and the attack the moms if they got close. Needless to say he didn't stay around for long
I think in your case they are fighting for dominance over a new territory. Getting them fixed might help, maybe not. Maybe just them being busy at night will wear them out to where they don't fight as much. 
Just as a side note LGDs do sleep a lot during the day. Mine is basically awake long enough to eat and harass me when I'm out there. She does stay with the herd and wakes up long enough to move with them but will go right back to napping. She's always on alert though.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I respectfully disagree that being litter mates have anything to do with their fighting. Their hormones are kicking in now , that has a lot to do with their issues IMO.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

So, they're both doing ok for now... Caboose had some cookies when my siblings went out to play with him, but Google didn't take any. He was shivering a bit, and still acting off, so we bedded him with straw in a cozy area. He'll go see the vet tomorrow if he still feels icky, especially since he's limping, not eating, and not acting as lively as he should - he didn't even want to get up for food. I think they may have been fighting from a combination of hormones, new territory, and generally not feeling well. 

The good news is they're both basically leash trained after only a day of being on a leash. It's amazing how smart livestock dogs are - and a little bit scary, too. And the other good news is they're 110% fine with people, and really just want love and attention.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Sooooo , when do we get to see some pictures of the new pups 

Good idea to keep Google separate and warm. The shaking has me a bit worried. How hurt did he get ? Have you seen him urinate and defecate afterwards ? Keep an eye on urine color , and the poop so you can tell the vet tomorrow ( if you go ). Poor guy 

Do you know if they were vaccinated ? Your vet will want to know this..


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Supposedly they were vaccinated as little puppies, but I'm not too sure. And pics coming soon - they're real cuties


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

The first 2 are Caboose, the second 2 are Google. You can kind of see where Caboose got Google's front right left in the second picture. I'm not sure how badly he was hurt, but he's cozy now, next to food and water. Blood wise, he didn't lose much, but I think he hasn't been eating because Caboose has been keeping him away from the food. In the second picture (of Caboose), he's totally fine, just sleeping after we cleaned him up. (I'm not sure how to deal with the pictures being sideways, so just pretend they aren't... shh the dogs defy physics) 

But MORE good news. Caboose just started barking in the direction of where the lion has been recently, and I ran out there just in case - there was no lion in sight, and a very proud looking dog came up to greet me. The donkey moved the herd while he guarded the fence. That's a big weight off my chest, but I have to learn to recognize his different barks now. It's the first time I've heard him bark, and it was really a powerful thing. Absolutely amazing.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

They are great looking dogs ! Sooo cute  Glad they are barking and starting to know their job , long ways to go with that , but at least you heard them bark so you know they mustve had a reason to. Makes you feel good that if there was a lion , it now knows the dogs are there. Im praying this will work well for you and the lion moves on from your property. In the meantime , hopefully the rangers get it.
Hows Google with chickens ? Looks like he is eyeing that Wyandotte…
I have heard LGD barks and they are definitely powerful ! And the looks they can give make the hair on my neck stand straight up , lol…..really cool dogs they are 

Whats up with Google's right eye ? Or maybe its just the picture….


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Google is named after that eye - the skin around it is just pink pigmented, so it makes him look googly eyed in person  (It's funky, since he looks like he's wearing mascara on the other eye. Kind of like he took the makeup off of one eye and forgot about the other.)

And both boys are really good with chickens. The chicken was running around Google making a lot of noise, and he looked at her like he was saying 'What's up? Nothing's wrong with you.' The whole flock was running around both boys, and neither batted an eye. The chickens usually eat in the area the donkey is in so he can't get their food, but I didn't want the dogs and donkey meeting that way, so I blocked it off with a puppy pen.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

There are two reasons why it is recommended not to get litter mates. 1) If there is a problem with one of the pups behavior (like chasing stock), the other will join in and you have double the trouble. 2) Because the dogs are the same age, as they grow they will challenge each other repeatedly trying to determine who is in charge. Because these are LGDs, those fights get very intense. You get much less fighting when you have an established adult LGD and you bring another pup home because the pup will accept the adult as in charge. The pup may challenge as he/she gets bigger but the fighting is usually much less than dogs that are the same age (read more evenly matched).

For less fighting in general, a male female pair is the most harmonious. Then two males. And the worst is two females (especially if the are the same age). Spaying and neutering will help keep hormones level but altered dogs will still fight for dominance and pack hierarchy. 

All that being said, I still brought home two litter mate brothers. I just watched them like a hawk and immediately corrected bad behavior. Also, one of my dogs, David, was the runt of the litter and has always been much smaller than his brother, Goliath. Because of the size difference, David knows Goliath is boss but David will fight him to keep his food. That's why I feed Goliath inside. Everyone gets their fair share and no more fighting. 

I've had dogs my whole life and I've never been afraid to break up dog fights until I got LGDs. They are just too ferocious and powerful. Best thing you can do is remove what they will fight over to lessen the fighting but after that you really just have to let them sort it out. They have to figure out their place in the pack.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Update on Google:

He went to the vet yesterday morning. He stayed all day, and got 3 or 4 big cuts stitched; 2 have drains until Tuesday. He was also neutered. The poor guy is in a come in the garage. He was howling for his brother last night, and it was the saddest thing I've ever heard. 

Caboose is getting neutered and his worst bites, etc. stiched up today. 

I think they came from a very large pasture situation to being together in a small space so we could meet them. And since they were used to lots of personal space, they started fighting... and forgot why they were fighting once they got here, but kept doing it. Hopefully being fixed and back in a larger area should help them.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

LadySecret said:


> There are two reasons why it is recommended not to get litter mates. 1) If there is a problem with one of the pups behavior (like chasing stock), the other will join in and you have double the trouble. 2) Because the dogs are the same age, as they grow they will challenge each other repeatedly trying to determine who is in charge. Because these are LGDs, those fights get very intense. You get much less fighting when you have an established adult LGD and you bring another pup home because the pup will accept the adult as in charge. The pup may challenge as he/she gets bigger but the fighting is usually much less than dogs that are the same age (read more evenly matched).
> 
> For less fighting in general, a male female pair is the most harmonious. Then two males. And the worst is two females (especially if the are the same age). Spaying and neutering will help keep hormones level but altered dogs will still fight for dominance and pack hierarchy.
> 
> ...


My husband has been breeding GSDs for umpteen years as well. I do agree with you why they fight or may fight , females and males and all. But not because they are litter mates . Dogs will all vie for dominance and leader status , but take the littermate away , put another dog unrelated in the group , same outcome. Being related has nothing to do with it. 
Packs will certainly have a leader , regardless of who is who's relative.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good advice given.


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