# What would you do with a goat behaving this way



## GeorgiaBrownRIP (Oct 14, 2012)

Sorry for the long post. I have a whether, HUGE 3 year old dairy bred whether. Well over 200lbs, the height of a Shetland pony. His head comes up to my shoulder (I'm 5'1"). He is sweet mostly. But he bullies my other two does, his mom and sister, who are half his size. He pushes his sister out of everything to the point I have to feed her from a separate hay feeder, the mom fights back when she is really wanting whatever is going on.

He's a fence jumper. A fence destroyer. And destroys objects as well. Thankfully he's never destroyed anything of value, I've been able to fix fences and he's mostly destroyed stuff in my trash pile.

He is also super disrespectful. But only of ME. He's gentle to my mom, visitors, my dad, etc. But he sizes me up regularly. He may be playing (he may not be idk) but he sizes me up, does not respect my space when I say move, and when I get physical to physically move him, he often gets ticked and rears up at me. Thankfully he has never actually rammed me. I'm constantly having to check them to be sure he hasn't gotten out. I live in a pretty residential area. I'm allowed to have the goats but my neighbors are RIGHT THERE. He quite literally stresses me out. But I'm the ONLY ONE who does anything with the goats. My parents go out there to physically be with them once a month maybe, they often pet them over the fence but that doesn't show them anything. Visitors come once in a blue moon. My parents will support me no matter the decision.

I kept him to turn into a cart goat. The boy is STRONG. But he has zero interest. Once he starts pulling something, he falls over an won't get up no matter what until you unharness him. His only interest is eat, sleep and play. His mom is the same way. Treats don't help, he just flat refuses. He does not get phased by water, and it takes forever to flip him because he is so big and strong, and that also doesn't seem to phase him, he just gets up and seems more pissed. I've even resorted to using a trigger snap (which have a rounded end) in his nose when he is really bad. I wish you could put a nose ring on a goat, that might solve it.

There are days I almost walk inside and call my friend to come butcher him (as I never have) but then he walks up and just is a lover and is sweet. It's like he knows.

I am having trouble making that decision. Rehoming isn't an option, as no one wants a fence jumping direspectful goat, and I worry someone won't take care of him before butchering him. He either stays or is butchered. 

I've lost 6 goats in 10 years due to bad advice from veterinarians and my heart still breaks thinking about them. Thankfully I've learned from my mistakes. I have trouble SELLING goats, I've only sold 3. Butchering is hard enough. I've harvested chickens and turkeys and ducks, but I guess goats are different. THAT STEP is hard. 

Not to mention a friend has so graciously built a huge fenced pasture on leased land directly behind our house, so she can board a horse here and so I can bring mine home and my goats can have pasture. I don't know how he'll behave for her, as she will have to be around him regularly. I find it stupid I can control a horse easier than a goat, but he is harder to control than a dang stallion. I've already said if he gets out of that fence she built he will be butchered (as I won't stress him out by keeping him locked up, because I won't deny the other goats pasture just because he's an escape artist). He definitely will if he sizes her up.

What would others do in this situation? I'm sorry if I sound insensitive, but I'm at my wits end. I have cried so many times over this decision and always decided that it was easier on my heart to keep him. But tonight he was meaner than he ever has been.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

I had a Kiko buck like that, super destructive, but well mannered, I sold him, he wouldn't jump fences but if there was space would squeeze under


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

I think in your heart you know what the right answer is here. But it makes it an easier option with others tellin you what they would do with this guy. My answer... i am absolutely not gonna keep an animal that i cannot turn my back on here. Ever. Period. Me or my family being hurt is not an option because i kept an unruly jerk. He is also stressing the other goats our by his nastiness... nope nope nope. Plus there is the time and work and money involved in mendin fences... we have tons of other things to do than to fret over the next time jerkface wants tear up the fence. Camp kenmore would be his new happy home were he ours. It would have been done before now.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Freezer camp. Take him to a processor if you can't do it yourself.


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## GeorgiaBrownRIP (Oct 14, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> Freezer camp. Take him to a processor if you can't do it yourself.


Strangly, I was hoping you would comment. You have saved my goats SO MANY TIME's. Your user always pops up in my mind when I try to help others now. What would she do? This wasn't much different. Thank you.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Borrow a cattle prod from someone. Let that be his last chance before freezer camp.


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## GeorgiaBrownRIP (Oct 14, 2012)

Dwarf Dad said:


> Borrow a cattle prod from someone. Let that be his last chance before freezer camp.


I've used a tazer on him. It works but only when you have it. He knows when you don't


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

GeorgiaBrownRIP said:


> I've used a tazer on him. It works but only when you have it. He knows when you don't


Sounds like he is too smart for his own britches!


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## Lindan (Aug 19, 2018)

I have a wonderful polite and cuddly buck, and he's going to freezer camp along with two does. 
One of those does is going solely because of her bad temper, she's a great mother and a beautiful goat, but I can't turn my back on her, so she is going. 
I am considering sending our herd queen as well, simply because she also is very temperamental and harsh on the other goats.
I am simply waiting for the room in the freezer to free up. 
The herd queen is to be determined, and will be the last to go, if she goes. 
But sending off a goat because of its temper is perfectly valid. 
There is no reason to put yourself or others in danger to keep a goat around when he can be useful by feeding your family.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

Sold mine too. We agreed if they did not fit the herd we dont keep them


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

agreed


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

GeorgiaBrownRIP said:


> He either stays or is butchered.


Thank you!
:up:

What a story! I guess you have tried to tip him over, most probably not too easy. But why on earth does he not want to pull? He seems to be the opposite of Goat Martin, always kind, letting children pet, pulling also heavy loads with a happy face... I am afraid I do not have much of a tip, he being so big and strong, already having learnt to boss you ... Some kind of bridle?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Honestly any if any of my goats did any one of those things alone they would be gone. It’s a crappy choice to make when on some level you do adore the guy so much. Usually what I have to do when I try to talk myself into keeping something I shouldn’t is remind myself there are so many other goats out there that would fit the bill of what I want or don’t want why deal with a headache? The aggressiveness alone though would have sent any one of mine on a one way trip right on the spot, getting hurt is never worth anything


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh yes, always a tough decision. This that he butts his sister is also a bad thing.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Once they are mean like that, that is it, they will only get worse with age.

I am sorry he is doing it, sounds like you tried everything you could unfortunately.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

I agree with the others. If he were mine, he'd go to the freezer.

I've never had a goat that was as poorly behaved as your boy, but I have had goats that I've been exasperated with. One who jumped fences, one who wouldn't let me catch her, one who was too pushy with herdmates, etc. I'd go back and forth on whether or not to keep them- as you say, the good days make you second guess yourself. But at the end of the day, I raise goats because I enjoy it and it makes me happy. Working with my troublemaker animals was not enjoyable, and it did not make me happy. So one by one I sold all the ones I didn't enjoy working with. It was hard to do at the time, but I haven't missed a single one of them. It sounds like your boy is more stress, trouble, and liability than he's worth, but in the end he's your goat and it's up to you how much you're willing to put up with!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

It seems as if you have our support. Did I check that you have checked him for pain and other disorders; I think I did?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Gee, I wish I could work with him. He sounds like a handful, but he also sounds amazing if you could channel that power. You say he "falls over" when he's put to a cart? Does he actually fall or does he deliberately throw himself on the ground in a labor strike? 

Some goats will act aggressive with certain people (often the one that raised them, particularly if they were bottle raised), but never with anyone else. I know a man who bought a wether a couple of years ago that was attacking the owner, but the wether never offered to attack the man who bought him or his wife or children. That big, horned boy packs gear all over the mountains with kids all around him and has never offered to challenge any of them. The original owner tried and tried but for some reason could do nothing to fix that goat's attitude toward her. Thankfully the goat found a home where he fit in and got along. 

I think your boy needs a setup where he's got at least one other big wether he can challenge and knock heads with. He's a bully because he can get away with it. There's no one on his level to spar with and put him in his place. I can almost guarantee that if he were put with a big buck or another big wether, his attitude toward other goats would take a turn for the better. 

Unfortunately, you may not be able to make the changes your goat needs in order to thrive. From a purely practical standpoint, freezer camp may be your best option. There are not many people in the world willing and able to take on a "project," and if you sold him it would have to be with full disclosure that this is a high-risk animal with training issues.


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## GeorgiaBrownRIP (Oct 14, 2012)

Damfino said:


> Gee, I wish I could work with him. He sounds like a handful, but he also sounds amazing if you could channel that power. You say he "falls over" when he's put to a cart? Does he actually fall or does he deliberately throw himself on the ground in a labor strike?


It's a labor strike. He's very well halter trained. Typically if I'm trying to lead him to pull something, it starts off as him walking a few steps fine, then stops. I try bribing him, he either goes a few more steps and then/or doesn't care, so then I do pressure release on his halter, but typically pressure just causes him to fall over. He'll lay there until all equipment is off then gets up. I've tried leaving him there and watching him from somewhere he can't see me but I can get to him if needed, I've tried just holding pressure till he gets up, he's a stubborn a$$.

Carting, he ground drives mostly fine. After about 10 minutes he just stops and doesn't want to anymore, if he does it at all. With me actually on the cart, he may go a few feet but then just stops, typically does a turn around or freaks out, often resulting a fall over. Him and his mom are the worst about getting to the road, about ten feet down the road, then just falling in the ditch. So embarrassing. I had a fully cart trained doe who passed a few weeks after they were born, I know how to train them, they just have to want to be trained!

Honestly I could see him being a great pack goat, but most wouldn't want to try it. Him being so big can be a liability if it didn't work out. I'm serious when I say he is as tall at his whither as a Shetland pony is. If I liked that kind of thing I would actually do so myself! But I don't live anywhere that that is possible.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'd stick my kindle in my pocket and the next time he fell over I'd sit on him and read until he was good and sick of lying down.
Then I'd round pen him with the drive whip until he learned to move with pressure instead of against, properly, not abusively.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I applaud all the excellent tips going your way. And if you want to keep working with him, I wholeheartedly wish you luck.

On my farm he'd be dogfood. My dogs have to eat, too. There are other dairy wethers on the way that I could start over with.


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## R.Williamson (Mar 21, 2019)

We ended up with a similar situation,but with a buck. I ended up putting him on the meat truck. Much as I loved the boy I sold him to the meat man.He was just too dangerous in the long run. I just couldn't bring myself to put him in my freezer so ..umm yeah sold him for meat.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh, if Damfino could have a chance to try, that would really be interesting! When I saw the suggestion with sitting on him, I remembered an old story about a mare who had the habit of just stopping, refusing to walk on. One day, her owner took a good book and set off. The mare stopped, and the owner opened the book. After a while, the mare moved one hoof to start walking. The owner stopped her with the reins, oh, no, not walk! Just stand still here!!! After several hours with the good book, the mare was so fed up with just standing there, that she never more tried to stop with her cart.

For I am sure you have already checked that this "handful" is totally comfortable with the cart and harness.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm sure this character is more than comfortable with the cart and harness. Perhaps the problem is that he's slightly TOO comfortable with the whip! 

I cured a "laggard" by dallying his lead (connected to his halter) to the horn on my saddle and told my horse to start walking. That goat pulled, strained, struggled, bucked, and laid down, but he could not outpull the horse so he eventually decided it was easier to obey and he quit "quitting".

Have you tried clicker training your lazy goat? I've found it's a great tool to unlock eagerness to learn and perform tasks, and it's not too difficult. I can't seem to operate a handheld clicker, so I click with my tongue. My boy Sputnik was difficult in a different way (spooky, didn't like being touched, hard to catch, impossible to brush, etc.). He had already learned a lot before we started clicker training, but the clicker really unlocked a lot more potential and is helping him overcome some of his remaining trouble spots.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Yes, I am sure, too. I mentioned it mainly thinking of later readers of the thread. I do look forward to further reports on this lazybone! What do you think, should GeorgiaBrownRIP perhaps begin with the problems with the bullying? Or what exercises do you suggest, with the clicker? Or without it?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> Yes, I am sure, too. I mentioned it mainly thinking of later readers of the thread. I do look forward to further reports on this lazybone! What do you think, should GeorgiaBrownRIP perhaps begin with the problems with the bullying? Or what exercises do you suggest, with the clicker? Or without it?


I would love to hear about her trying the "book". He sounds like he would be a great goat except for his mule headedness.lol
That pulling with a lead like @Damfino wrote about works. Somewhat of a last resort, but it does work. I don't need a horse with my little goats. Thank goodness!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I think you could probably correct his disrespect of you with a cattle prod/hot shot. But it will be impossible to correct his destruction of infrastructure and his bullying of your other goats without a significant investment in his housing and an appropriate playmate.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

SalteyLove said:


> I think you could probably correct his disrespect of you with a cattle prod/hot shot. But it will be impossible to correct his destruction of infrastructure and his bullying of your other goats without a significant investment in his housing and an appropriate playmate.


She said she has used a Tazer on him. He only behaves when she carries it.lol


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I know his behavior is not funny. Funny he recognizes Tazer!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Not knowing what a tazer is, I have understood that this goat is intelligent.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

A tazer is an electric shocking “gun” that police often carry.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

a tazer is a short hot shot with a different name


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

spidy1 said:


> a tazer is a short hot shot with a different name


More voltage too.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh. I suspected something like that. I think clicker training might be much more effective. Has Damfino and the gang any more suggestions?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah, send him to me. I find that the smart aggressive boys turn out the best once the 2 year old puberty funks are dealt with.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Funks? The dictionary says something like 'afraidness'.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Afraidness trying to find your place in this world. Overly aggressive, scared, unsure, hormonal, puberty. 
Even wether goats go through it.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Trollmor said:


> Oh. I suspected something like that. I think clicker training might be much more effective.


I agree. In this case, I don't think zapping the goat would help with his training and respect problems and would probably make him fearful and/or even more aggressive.

I think the "laziness" actually stems from this goat's lack of respect. He doesn't respect you, so he doesn't feel he has to obey or work for you. He also doesn't see you as his friend, so he doesn't have any incentive to leave his buddies back at the barn to be with you. These are not easy problems to fix without having plenty of time to work with this goat both on bonding and on instilling respect without instilling fear/aggression. I do find that when teaching respect and training to ground drive, my best friend is my dressage whip. It's a good tool to instill respect for your space without being so painful or unexpected as to incite aggression. If you make a habit to carry the whip every time you're with him (and don't be afraid to use it hard if he tries to bully you!), respect can not only be learned but can eventually become a matter of habit.

I had to carry a whip with a trio of bucklings last year that went to their new owner for a few months before coming back to me. By the time I got them back they had developed a few disrespectful habits and were giving me the side eye and rearing up at me. For several weeks I made a habit to carry a whip with me any time I took them for a walk or fed them. I had to crack a few heads and backs pretty hard at first, but they eventually got the message to keep a safe distance and not hassle me. Eventually I was able to stop carrying the whip because my voice was enough to remind them to give me space. At the same time, they also made friends with me because I was a source of food and entertainment.

That said, it helped these bucks' attitudes that they had appropriate playmates in each other, and they also had my two big wethers to keep them in line and teach them herd manners. A healthy herd dynamic is a very important aspect to a goat's overall mental and emotional state. I know that sounds hokey, but so many times it seems like a goat that is destructive, disrespectful, mean, etc. gets along great with everyone as soon as it goes to a new herd.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Sorry, Im not for killing him. It's just his personality, I work with Clyde and to me he's rambunctious, just yesterday him and I tied up. I got a good goose egg on my shin, but in this case it was my fault. I use a wooden spoon on Clyde, he HATES his horns to be hit
when he rares up, I feed him another one. afterwards I love on him and such, but he's a buck goat. This guy here is a wether, but to me its personality, stubborness. I think you said he was 3?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The fact is, everyone has to be honest with themselves about what they can handle. If you don't have the time and experience to handle a problem goat, then you need to do right by the goat. Sometimes that is just selling them and sometimes that is putting them in the freezer. I would never sell a problem goat because I know it would end up abused or neglected. People around me would never spend the time to train or work with a goat. I also can't see keeping the goat around because you feel bad. Not safe for the goat or you. There are very few people who have the time and knowledge to handle a goat like that.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Well said Karen, you know when I was younger, I woudn't really care about it. I've shot several deer, hundreds of birds, etc. I guess it because out of the chickens mine are pets. You said it perfect though.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I agree with Ksalvagno, It is absolutely vital to do the best you can and to know your limits.

I also agree with Goathiker and Damfino, that their methods WILL WORK.

I also agree with me, that I don't have that capability right now, and he would meet a peaceful end and serve a useful purpose after that end, and it is OK.

None of us can tell you what you must do. All we can do is say, "Don't cause suffering to anyone. Selling a behaviour problem to someone who won't handle it well, causes suffering." 

Good luck, I mean that.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug:


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Seems as if the freezer is not an option as long as the transport can be managed to one of our goat training members!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Well, unfortunately the goat training members on this forum are all located very far away from Georgia. Out west, I'll bet we could find a decent working home for this fella. Folks are always looking for fully-grown, ready-to-go packgoats, and since most of these boys are housed with others their size and are put straight to work, they never have a chance to give grief to their new owners. By the time they realize what happened, it's too late to argue about it!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

A pity that America must be so big ...


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

I am in the same boat with a 24 month old 160lb Myotonic buck who came after me aggressively 3 weeks ago. I am giving him 1 last chance over the summer to "prove" himself, if he still a jerk... buh bye. Rules are, I no longer go into his pen alone. My niece and nephew are not allowed near him. And my boyfriend handles him. He was raised being able to do what he wanted I think and now has no respect. If he does it again, he will either be put down (humanely) or sold for meat only. I will not risk my safety or others (selling) if he continues to be a jerk. Picture of said a-hole..


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

He will do it again unless he is trained not to. Hoping he won't do something that he has learned will work is guaranteeing he will do it again.

I mean, that's all of us, isn't it? We'll do what works until we learn it won't work. People can learn from being told, "That won't work any more." Or, "Do that again and you're fired." 

But goats don't learn that way.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Riverside Fainters said:


> I am in the same boat with a 24 month old 160lb Myotonic buck who came after me aggressively 3 weeks ago. I am giving him 1 last chance over the summer to "prove" himself, if he still a jerk... buh bye. Rules are, I no longer go into his pen alone. My niece and nephew are not allowed near him. And my boyfriend handles him. He was raised being able to do what he wanted I think and now has no respect. If he does it again, he will either be put down (humanely) or sold for meat only. I will not risk my safety or others (selling) if he continues to be a jerk. Picture of said a-hole..
> View attachment 152843


I just bought 5 pack of water pistols for $4 at walmart. My problems are only 1/4 size of yours, just more of them.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

What a beautiful boy! What an amount of nice meat on him! If you decide not to keep him, I think your freezer might like it very much!

What is his aim when he starts his bad behaviour? Is there anything you can take away from him then, that he likes, like food or caressing? If not, I guess the case is bad. What a muscle packet!!


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

Trollmor said:


> What a beautiful boy! What an amount of nice meat on him! If you decide not to keep him, I think your freezer might like it very much!
> 
> What is his aim when he starts his bad behaviour? Is there anything you can take away from him then, that he likes, like food or caressing? If not, I guess the case is bad. What a muscle packet!!


It seems to be when Raj, the freezer camp wether is being fussed with.. so.. he will be leaving soon and we will see..


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Jealousy is here too. Scratch one, get a small riot started.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> A pity that America must be so big ...


I dont lol


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Ah, jealousy! Have I told you about my utterly jealous kid, who bit the other kids' ears as soon as they tried to climb into my lap?


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

LOL - every once in a while I notived Bonnie would bite Clyde on his ear when she gets fed up lol.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

"You bite someone's ear, I go away" This will help if he IS wanting the cosy time.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

What’s the verdict on this big boy so far? I agree with everyone’s statement so far. You need to do what’s right for you the goat and the safety of others. I wish you the best of luck


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