# Alfalfa hay and urinary calculi



## Zarafia

I was at my feed store today buying a bale of alfalfa. I mentioned that I had a baby goat and the lady there immediately asked if he was a buck or whether. I said he was a buckling, soon to be whether and she basically said that by giving him alfalfa I would be killing him, or at best subjecting him to painful and expensive surgery.
I explaine that I was getting an alpine doe for milking and breeding and she strongly cautioned me to only let that goat have any of this alfalfa.
I knew that urinary calculi was an issue for male goats, but i had no idea that alfalfa hay was so deadly. This lady also indicated that any amount of grain could be detrimental to a male goat's health, for the same reason. Pan eats so little grain I feel safe giving it to him.
What do you guys think.
If the alfalfa is so bad I can always just give it to my horse.


----------



## Burns Branch Boers

I will be curious to see what others say but......

Our wether and our bucks get alot of grain-always have. The only time my wether had any trouble with UC (and it was a minor problem that was quickly corrected) is when I begain adding alfalfa to their daily feed. The situation most likely, was a coincidence-but I decided that I no longer needed to give alfalfa to the bucks or our wether. 

Keep in mind that my bucks and wether eat show quality grain and it HAS alfalfa in it. However I think it is balanced out correctly as to not cause stone formation because the feed is medicated. 

There are lots of goat owners who feed more "forage" than grain. Honeslty it IS better for them-it is their natural food. But....my livestock needs to be competative in the show ring-so if I want to play that game they have to eat grain. It is a personal choice for most---but my opinion, no you will not harm him at all by giving him an adequate amount of grain and a handfull of alfalfa here and there most likely wont hurt him either.


----------



## freedomstarfarm

Buck or wether either runs risk of UC as do does but way less a issue with does. All my boys get grain but they get grain with AC in it to help prevent UC. I use Dumor goat pellet or Purina Noble goat pellet. The alfalfa hay is a bit rich for boys and is only ok if your other feeds for him are balencing out the ratio. I would save that for your bred or milking doe and give Pan some sort of mix grass hay.


----------



## LoneStarChic

You can google " UROLITHIASIS (urinary calculi, bladder stones) by Sue Reith" for a good read. Prevention is key. A balance of calcium & phosporus in the diet will prevent UC. No calcium is just as bad as too much.

My growing bucks were fed Ntimidator Meat Goat pellet...... Alfalfa based, with ammonium chloride in it. Did great.


----------



## Zarafia

Very interesting guys. I have SO much to learn about goats!
I'll hold off on giving him more than a handful of alfalfa (which he'll most likely just push around anyway LOL) for now and read up on the subject.
With my horses I've always liked feeding more forage than grain, it's just way more natural. And I think they enjoy spending more time eati ng anyway LOL.
Gotta get back to cleaning the barn .


----------



## liz

UC is just as much if not more so a genetic issue than it is a feed issue...IMO. I have ALWAYS fed my bucks, wethers the same exact alfalfa hay, alfalfa/timothy cubes and grain that my milking does and growing kids get...with the 4 bucks I've had and 1 wether in the last 9 years I've raised goats, I've never had a problem. The main thing is to keep the Calcium/Phosphorous ratio in "balance".... if you give alfalfa hay then you need to give grain to balance...I also leave out free choice minerals with added Ammonium Chloride for my boys and that was only started 2 years ago.

I think that one of the most important things we can do when we purchase goats is to be sure they are not only healthy but to also ask about the health of sires, brothers, uncles etc. IF any of those males in the genetics have ever developed UC then I think it would be best to forego the grain and alfalfa.


----------



## naturalgoats

I certainly agree with Liz that the cause of obstructive UC is largely genetic but there are things you can do to be "on the safe side" There are a number of different factors to consider. If you feed grain the phosphorus in it must be balanced by a high calcium feed such as beet pulp or alfalfa. I have gone back and forth on the two and the reason I have been leery if alfalfa is that it is high in protein and protein can increase the likelihood of the crystals that precipitate binding together. In my opinion as small amount of grain balanced with a small amount of alfalfa would be fine... But honestly he will probably do very well (when he is grown up) on just grass hay, pasture and minerals...
M.


----------



## Itchysmom

I do not feed grain to my horses or goats. The only time I will is when I am milking a doe and that is not much. 

All my horses have been raised on alfalfa...until I moved here. They have a grass pasture in the summer and a grass/alf mix hay in the winter. I feed my goats the same way. Right now they have all been eating grass hay...the same grass they eat out in my pasture...and the goats get a bit of alfalfa at night. If i run out of my grass hay, which I might before the pasture grass comes in, then they will all finish this winter off with alfalfa. it will not be a long period of time, so I am not worried. 

You should always give a good Phos to Ca balance. This is why I give grass with alfalfa. Alfalfa is very high in Ca and has more protien than grass. So giving both tends to balance things out.


----------



## naturalgoats

Itchysmom makes a good point... also grass hay tends to have a ratio of 1:1 and so an alfalfa/grass mix will probably bring the ratio to about 2:1... and give a bit of protein....
M.


----------



## TheMixedBag

All my goats, bucks included (i don't keep wethers) get free choice alfalfa. I also feed ac in their water water and a loose horse mineral with a 2:1 balance, plus full access to pasture. No grain, ever. I haven't had a problem yet. Alfalfa isn't the death sentence a lot of people think it is, so long as everything is balanced.


----------



## Guest

I feed 2-3 hundred goats straight alfalfa no grass no weeds a pinch of DDG. I have only had 3 cases of UC in the thousand or so kids I have raised and that was from feeding too much grain specifically corn.
I do not believe for a minute that a 100% ration of alfalfa unless grown on a very unbalanced field will hurt them one bit.
My kids are gaining as fast or faster than a grain fed kid with out the risk of UC. If a goat needs to be pampered with a grain diet to gain condition I cull it. 
I weaned today my 75 day old kids and have several over 60lbs 3 of which are headed to the show ring and will get no special treatment. They have all the alfalfa they can eat as well as Decox pellets in a 1/4 lb of DDG every day. It helps that the Does have never had anything but alfalfa and will not eat anything else and milk like Holsteins. These are not Boer goats.


----------



## lissablack

I feed only alfalfa too, it is all I can get readily around here. I have never had an issue, I am on and off about putting AC in their water, someone I know with tons of experience said it makes them drink less, which is just as bad, and so I stopped, and they do seem to drink more. I give them very little grain and it is not medicated.


----------



## naturalgoats

I think it is really interesting to hear what sideplaner and lissablack are saying.... this really supports the idea that grain and genetics are the larger issues....
M.


----------



## PznIvyFarm

My buck gets Caprine Challenger and alfalfa pellets. When i got him he was in great condition. I fed him grain for a few weeks and then while talking to the breeder she said grain was an absolute no-no. So i stopped. Then he got a bout of coccidia and when i was taking care of him for that i realized how thin he had gotten (his fuzzy coat hid a lot and he doesn't like to be touched). It was suggested (here) that maybe oncoming rut had stressed him out, so i restarted grain in October and put him in with the girls. (he seriously seemed depressed, wasn't really eating well, and I was afraid i'd lose him, once he was with the girls he perked right up) He is FINALLY back to a good weight and I am reluctant to cut out grain again. As soon as it is warm I am clipping him so i can keep a better handle on what he looks like, but I really need a good maintenance diet for him. He is with two of my does now anyway b/c they refuse to get pregnant - one had a bad first delivery and I fear she cannot get pregnant, which is too bad b/c she was my best milker, but the other one has no excuse - she is really good at avoiding Luc, but I would think eventually he would have bred her. :shrug: 

Thanks for the topic. It seems like everyone does something different, but if it works, i guess they all are good.


----------



## Guest

I don't know that its how much grain a person feeds but what kind of grain. Corn is the #1 offender in any ration since it is so starchy and changes the PH of the rumin more than any grain I have fed, and grows feet and horn. If you were to research the contents and amounts of each grain you are feeding and then look up the Nutritional value of each grain involved you will come up with a better understanding of the need to feed grain and when. I never feed open or early gestation Does any type of supplemental carbohydrates. 
Something a person starts to understand is that goats respond to a persons management style or lack of. You can own goats that do very well on roughage only by not feeding them grain to start with, for example if you bought 100 60lb Doelings and only fed hay 70 of them will continue to gain respectably 15 will maintain and grow slowly and 15 will stop growing all together. This is where you find out which breeds will tolerate the straight roughage diet, Boers are one of them as are Savanna and Spanish. 
In 90 days you scale them and evaluate prospects of which 40 may make the cut the rest are culls and sold. The kids from these remaining Does will be evaluated and only the top 20% kept and so on.
I have 2 books by Morrison called Feeds and Feeding printed in 1950 
Although old contain the same information contained in books that cost hundreds.
One was here at the ranch when I bought it the other I got on Amazon for like 3.00 If you want to learn about cereal grains and all forages standing or as hay this 600+ page book is worth the money and is what I refer to when deciding what to plant and feed.


----------



## Itchysmom

I do think also that is is the type of grain.. I have never fed corn. OK, once, last year when my doe was milking and feeding kids and giving me milk. I fed a dry cob, which has corn in it. I won't do it again. Not that anything happened, I just do not like corn feed. I plan on getting oats and barley this year. Plain and simple is how I like things!


----------



## ladyharley

lissablack said:


> I feed only alfalfa too, it is all I can get readily around here. I have never had an issue, I am on and off about putting AC in their water, someone I know with tons of experience said it makes them drink less, which is just as bad, and so I stopped, and they do seem to drink more. I give them very little grain and it is not medicated.


Where in New Mexico are you? I am also in New Mexico. It's hard finding people in the same climate area to discuss goats..


----------



## ThreeHavens

My own UC experience scared me completely into NO GRAIN EVER mode. But I know that's not reality. In my situation my wethers went to a very loving home that cared deeply for them, but the feeding was off. They had a bale of hay in a large manger that made it difficult for the boy's to reach -- the hay was aged (like straw) and something my spoiled goat kids probably weren't likely to eat. So they starting leaving free-choice grain out for the boys. The real issue was that the boys, because they had the grain available at all times and didn't like the old hay, were gorging themselves on the grain.

As I'm reading more on UC I'm getting more comfortable with the idea of mixed hay. ATM I feel no need to feed my remaining wether any grain because the grass hay he is getting and the minerals both have a calcium/phosphous balance of 2:1, and he's growing great and not hurting in the hunger department (little fatty :laugh: ) That said, balance really is the key. I would be okay with him having a little alfalfa.


----------

