# Should I Cull?!?!



## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

I'm seeking advise on a problem child of mine. He is a Nubian buck coming 2 yrs old in February. He is by far my hardest keeper! I swear that just the wind blowing in a different direction makes him scour. I have pretty much been battling this with him ever since he was weaned from the bottle and he is no where near where I think he should be size wise for his age. His FAMACHA is good, I have had him tested for everything possible (all negative), I do not change his diet (as I'm fearful), and he constantly either has scours or dog type poop. He has free choice minerals (that I feel are decent quality), free feed hay, and gets 3 cups of a pelleted feed with decoxx in it. It seems like whenever we get it cleared up, it starts again. 

On the plus side - there's a lot of sentimental value (which I think is why I cannot just let him go), his offspring do very well, and his personality is very laid back / trusting.

Does anyone have any advise on what I can do to try and fix / figure out this scour thing. I asked the vet, they're not really into goats, so they said cull. I appreciate any feedback, but please no bashing.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I'd try giving him a cobalt block. Can you post photos of him?


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> I'd try giving him a cobalt block. Can you post photos of him?


I have been searching for a Cobalt block and I cannot find anyone who sells or can order. Yesterday I did give him a combo of Replamin Plus, Selenium / Vit E gel, Vit ADE & B12. These are the most recent photos I have, but unfortunately














were taken in the dark.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I ordered my cobalt block from Amazon.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

If you can not find a Cobalt Block (ask your feed store if they can order one?) then Utra Cruz has cobalt boluses that work well. I don't like or endorse the company itself, but goats need cobalt. Also, Sweetlix 16-8 Meat Maker mineral mix has a terrific level of cobalt. The best I've seen anywhere.

That said. You said you've tested for everything, but have you tested especially for coccidia? My vet won't check for it unless I ask specifically for it. NO idea why.

I find your buck gorgeous and with nice conformation that I can pick out in your pictures. I would think hard before moving him on, too.

But you are right. Constant issues are not great to pass along, and you must be sensible.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> If you can not find a Cobalt Block (ask your feed store if they can order one?) then Utra Cruz has cobalt boluses that work well. I don't like or endorse the company itself, but goats need cobalt. Also, Sweetlix 16-8 Meat Maker mineral mix has a terrific level of cobalt. The best I've seen anywhere.
> 
> That said. You said you've tested for everything, but have you tested especially for coccidia? My vet won't check for it unless I ask specifically for it. NO idea why.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the compliments on him, I have so many mixed emotions about it. I think I will wait and see as his first set of daughters will be freshening this year, and I'd like to see what they have in store.

This is the mineral I currently have out - however, they seem to refuse to eat it.

Calcium (Ca) (min.) 12.00% (max.) 14.25%
Phosphorus (P) (min.) 6.00%
Salt (NaCl) (min.) 19.50% (max.) 23.00%
Magnesium (Mg) (min.) 4.00%
Potassium (K) (min.) 0.50%
Copper (Cu) (min.) 2,000 ppm
Selenium (Se) (min.) 39 ppm
Zinc (Zn) (min.) 4,000 ppm
Manganese (Mn) (min.) 3,500 ppm
Iodine (I) (min.) 85 ppm
Cobalt (Co) (min.) 40 ppm
Vitamin A (min.) 300,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D (min.) 40,000 IU/lb
Vitamin E (min.) 200 IU/lb

I also have 2 of our local feed mills checking on the Cobalt, worse case I'll just order from Amazon.

I did have the vet test for Cocci and the levels were low. He has however bad a bad battle with Barberpole in the past, but was treated. Thank you so much for your advise.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm so sorry. This must be terribly frustrating for you!

I would not feed any medication (like your decoxx) as a matter of course. I only do that when the risk is really high.

Have you given him any probiotics?


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> I'm so sorry. This must be terribly frustrating for you!
> 
> I would not feed any medication (like your decoxx) as a matter of course. I only do that when the risk is really high.
> 
> Have you given him any probiotics?


I will pull that and then just give him what the girls are getting (co-op grain) and see if that helps. I need to put some cover on him. With the constant scours and breeding season he looks like a gangly teenager.

Yes I have given him priobios for the last 3 days, which took from scours to logs.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

I also just checked, crazy enough Walmart carries the Cobalt block, offers free shipping, and is a few dollars cheaper than Amazon.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The cobalt level on the Sweetlix Meat Maker is 240

Here is the label for the mineral I use, Co-op Supreme Goat Mineral.

https://www.ourcoop.com/productcatalog/Main/PdfViewer.aspx?el=58310 My cobalt level is no higher than yours.

Can you try keeping him on the probiotics for a couple more days, not giving him any grain at all, just hay and browse?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

WillowSprings Farm said:


> I also just checked, crazy enough Walmart carries the Cobalt block, offers free shipping, and is a few dollars cheaper than Amazon.


YAY!!!

Where are you, may I ask?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Be sure you get cobalt for your girls, too.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> YAY!!!
> 
> Where are you, may I ask?


I am in south central Pennsylvania


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Be sure you get cobalt for your girls, too.


Do you know anywhere that may sell the smaller blocks? I have 4 fields ugh.... LOL


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Hit it with a hammer and break it up?

I use the boluses I mentioned. I can't find it around here and I'm personally unwilling to pay that much for what is 99% NaCl

I just found out about a Redmond Dealer about 20 miles from me. I'm going to see if they'll order me one of their cobalt blocks. No food dye, and 2 times the amount of iodine as the regular blue blocks. Here is that link.

http://www.redmondagriculture.com/products/cobalt-iodized-mineral-salt-block/

Honestly, I would try taking him off the grain or pellets for a few days, order the cobalt block, and mix a little bit of ground flax seed in his mineral. Just a little bit.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

Do you have a TSC in your area? I actually just called them after searching hi and low for a sku # for their product and was able to call and have them ordered. They are only $7.99 for the 50lb block!! Fingers crossed it gets here soon as she said it could be like 2-3 weeks since they just had a salt delivery.

I am gonna check into the flax seed (I might even have some in the house). Have you used kelp meal at all with success?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

My goats get one of 2 different mineral mixes, depending on what is in and what isn't. I gave you the label from my favourite one. That is Free choice. Also free choice, they get a kelp meal mixture of 5 parts kelp:1 part ground/cracked flax seed. 

All day long they are in my woods and pasture browsing. At night they come home to alfalfa pellets and Bermuda grass hay mixed with some other rougher hay (I do my best, but sometimes the hay situation is grim) Alfalfa hay around here is usually full of mold.

Once a month they get a dose of selenium/vitamin e gel. During the day, up by the house, I also have a bucket of copper sulphate out that they have stopped using. One more week of them not using it I'll remove it.

I've ordered a tube of Replamin Gel Plus that I'll be giving instead of the selenium gel during the winter pregnancies.

Goathiker (on this site) has recommended a sea salt lick for amino acids. Instead of the kelp. That is one reason I am interested in that Redmond block. It is sea salt and cobalt. Suzanne_Tyler, also here, recommend enticing reluctant mineral lickers with a bit of kelp meal in the minerals. But I keep mine separate. She is also a big fan of the cobalt block.

My TSC will not order the cobalt or the selenium block. I'm so happy yours will. Way to be persistent!

I hope this helps you.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Perhaps you could share the SKU # for other people to use?


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> My goats get one of 2 different mineral mixes, depending on what is in and what isn't. I gave you the label from my favourite one. That is Free choice. Also free choice, they get a kelp meal mixture of 5 parts kelp:1 part ground/cracked flax seed.
> 
> All day long they are in my woods and pasture browsing. At night they come home to alfalfa pellets and Bermuda grass hay mixed with some other rougher hay (I do my best, but sometimes the hay situation is grim) Alfalfa hay around here is usually full of mold.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much - it is so very helpful!!! I will be ordering both the Kelp & the ground flax seed to get them started and the cobalt just needs to get here. I appreciate your efforts in trying to help me help him so that he can stay and I don't get so upset with him and myself.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

You might should try rumen blouses.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

If you can, get some flax seeds from the grocery store and try giving him a handful now. They are very mucilagnous and healing to the gut lining. Whole seeds will keep the fat and nutrients inside, but still get goopy and slimy for him. His digestive route has been through a lot.

That is just my opinion anyway.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I just though of something else - you should try blackberry leaves.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> If you can, get some flax seeds from the grocery store and try giving him a handful now. They are very mucilagnous and healing to the gut lining. Whole seeds will keep the fat and nutrients inside, but still get goopy and slimy for him. His digestive route has been through a lot.
> 
> That is just my opinion anyway.


Where is the best place to order the Kelp & the Flax seed? I am definitely stopping today on the way home to get some for now. How much do you offer also?


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Perhaps you could share the SKU # for other people to use?


Absolutely! The SKU# is 2518091!


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> I just though of something else - you should try blackberry leaves.


I thought of that also, but everything here is dead as we've hard a lot of hard frosts.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> You might should try rumen blouses


Oh yes! I've never used them, so don't remember to suggest them.



Suzanne_Tyler said:


> just though of something else - you should try blackberry leaves.


A second Oh Yes. my pastures are full of the horrific things, which of course they can browse in every day if they felt the need.



WillowSprings Farm said:


> I thought of that also, but everything here is dead as we've hard a lot of hard frosts.


Dead leave still have value, and if you have a nutrition, or health food store around then they often have herbs in bulk



WillowSprings Farm said:


> Where is the best place to order the Kelp & the Flax seed? I am definitely stopping today on the way home to get some for now. How much do you offer also?


I'll look at my links and get back to you, ok?


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Oh yes! I've never used them, so don't remember to suggest them.
> 
> A second Oh Yes. my pastures are full of the horrific things, which of course they can browse in every day if they felt the need.
> 
> ...


Thank you both!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

This is the sea salt lick that @goathiker uses. I'm pretty sure this is the one.

http://www.redmondequine.com/redmond-rock/

TSC carries a Trophy Rock that I'm thinking about

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/trophy-rock-all-natural-mineral-lick-12-lb?rfk=1

But I have a lot of kelp and not even close to deciding to not use it. But I have immense respect for what goathiker has to say.

Here is where I ordered my kelp. I got a price break for 4 bags. I had money at the time so I ordered 6 (for now, when I don't have money) They were beyond nice to deal with. They even told me about some Amish stores within a couple of hours of me that carry some of their products.

http://www.noamkelp.com/

When I order flax seed again, I will try this company and see if I like them

https://www.ndflaxmill.com/shop-flax?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4prx-om_1gIVz1t-Ch11YQ0EEAEYASAAEgLU2PD_BwE

I've been ordering from Honeyville. and they are very nice.

This is where I just ordered the Replamin Plus (mineral and vitamin gel) and the pneumonia vaccine that @Jessica84 uses and recommends.

http://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/details/Once-PMH-IN/207-117258.html

I offer the kelp free choice (always available like my mineral mix) and it is in a 5:1 ratio. 5 parts kelp meal 1 part ground flax seed.

Hope this helps.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> This is the sea salt lick that @goathiker uses. I'm pretty sure this is the one.
> 
> http://www.redmondequine.com/redmond-rock/
> 
> ...


OH MY GOSH!! Thank you so much!! I stated the Replamin Plus yesterday, but I ordered from Jeffers as they were offering 15% off for the holiday season. Do you know the recommended use that Jessica suggests? I have heard weekly, but when I asked my vet they kinda laughed and said monthly? I am checking out the other links right now!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't know if Jessica uses Replamin. I was talking about the vaccine. I'm sorry I was unclear.

I think the dose is dependent on the deficiencies you see. Very deficient goats get daily for like 5 days, then weekly. I think others will get a weekly dose from the beginning. I intend to do weekly for a month and then drop back to monthly, but I really know my animals. I can see the deficiencies coming in as the forage clears off. If you can't get him to take his minerals I don't see how weekly would harm him.

If I am wrong, please someone say so!

I forgot to ask, has a bacteriological cause been eliminated? All you are doing is only going to help and support him and you should definitely do it.

But for a bacterial attack on the gut, this has become my go-to.

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail...RV3VZ3Xx-HpXGfOfJm96Ms3Nea4S7OpxoCqZoQAvD_BwE


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> I don't know if Jessica uses Replamin. I was talking about the vaccine. I'm sorry I was unclear.
> 
> I think the dose is dependent on the deficiencies you see. Very deficient goats get daily for like 5 days, then weekly. I think others will get a weekly dose from the beginning. I intend to do weekly for a month and then drop back to monthly, but I really know my animals. I can see the deficiencies coming in as the forage clears off. If you can't get him to take his minerals I don't see how weekly would harm him.
> 
> ...


No the bacteriological cause has not been eliminated but he's with others who thrive and do well so I never gave notion to think that it would be something of that nature. Do you think that giving the Terramycin would be beneficial as well? Not to be taken the wrong way but I'm at the point where I'm thinking what can it hurt to try.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

No, don't yet. He's been through the wringer, and now he is up to logs so he is not in dire straits. Give him a chance to heal first. Do take him off the grain though. I know you want to fatten him, but a few days of not having to deal with that shouldn't put him back, and you can't move forward until this is fixed.

A non stressful environment (not having to fight for feed, not getting too cold, not dealing with drafts) and what you are doing to support him and let him heal is the best way forward now. If he goes backward is the time to shove in more drugs.

Poor gorgeous boy.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@toth boer goats, @Kath G. , or @ksalvagno , we'd love your input. What might we have forgotten, or gotten wrong?


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> No, don't yet. He's been through the wringer, and now he is up to logs so he is not in dire straits. Give him a chance to heal first. Do take him off the grain though. I know you want to fatten him, but a few days of not having to deal with that shouldn't put him back, and you can't move forward until this is fixed.
> 
> A non stressful environment (not having to fight for feed, not getting too cold, not dealing with drafts) and what you are doing to support him and let him heal is the best way forward now. If he goes backward is the time to shove in more drugs.
> 
> Poor gorgeous boy.


He is in with a young buck currently so there is not really any stress or pecking order. I will pull the grain tonight and am stopping for the Flax Seed on my way home. It's just so frustrating that there really isn't a known reason. The only thing I can come up with is he has a weak rumen / sensitive stomach and likes all the extra attention. Even though it's stressful for us humans lol.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

I get my Kelp from Azure Standerd. It is called Thorivine on there but it's the same thing. It is expensive but worth it. I had a buck that did this to be when he was three boths sence he wasn't growing I whethered him then all his heath problems stopped and he started growing


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Forgot to ask this, what color are the scours?


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

Samamtha said:


> I get my Kelp from Azure Standerd. It is called Thorivine on there but it's the same thing. It is expensive but worth it. I had a buck that did this to be when he was three boths sence he wasn't growing I whethered him then all his heath problems stopped and he started growing


Thank you! I am going to order the Kelp and offer that to him. Unfortunately I do not want him castrated we have to manage our numbers where we are so that we do not overcrowd and not to sound negative but there is not any room for pet whethers. They either produce, go to market, or freezer camp. I'm willing to do anything for him, if he's a buck.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Forgot to ask this, what color are the scours?


They are brown- not light or dark brown just like regular brown.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

WillowSprings Farm said:


> They are brown- not light or dark brown just like regular brown.


and he goes from like scours to cow patties to logs - then recycles back - seldom does he ever have normal poop


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

I woundn't want to whether him ether I have two whethers One is a bottle who was a premie The other one is a pack and cart goat in training. I won't be keeping any more for a while


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Have you tried Pepto bismol or pig scour halt?


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

Yes, I have tried both. Pepto doesn't seem to make a difference and with the scout halt it just takes it to the log stage of poop and as soon as I stop giving it to him - back to cow patties.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> No, don't yet. He's been through the wringer, and now he is up to logs so he is not in dire straits. Give him a chance to heal first. Do take him off the grain though. I know you want to fatten him, but a few days of not having to deal with that shouldn't put him back, and you can't move forward until this is fixed.
> 
> A non stressful environment (not having to fight for feed, not getting too cold, not dealing with drafts) and what you are doing to support him and let him heal is the best way forward now. If he goes backward is the time to shove in more drugs.
> 
> Poor gorgeous boy.


@mariarose do you think this Kelp would be ok?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Organic-Ke...155249?hash=item4af3c1f7b1:g:-o0AAOSw~bFWQXea


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

It looks fine to me.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't see why that would not be fine. My first kelp was in the garden section of K-Mart. My "local" Wal-Mart has it too Just make certain it is all kelp, not mixed with crab shells or fertilizer or something.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Pig scour halt, did you give it for 3 days, 1 x a day and double the dosage it states on the bottle?

I tried to read through all the posts, but may of missed something so bare with me.
I didn't see that he has received fortified vit B complex(thiamine). I would add that 6 cc's per 100 lbs SQ for 4 days minimum. This helps to rebuild his rumen. Along with goat or cattle probiotics. Cannot overdose either of these, can be used longer if need be.

Bovi sera helps build immune system which he needs rebuild. 10cc sub-Q for 3 days http://hoeggerfarmyard.com/xcart/Bovi-Sera.html

Has he been given a copper bolus? If not give it.

Is he pale in the lower eyelid coloring, borderline safe or above? You can give some iron for a few days if he is a bit pale. Keep an eye on that.

What kind of grain were you feeding? I know you said 3 cups a day. I agree to stop the grain until he is back to normal. And has had some time for his gut to get better. With any new feed, always give in moderation.

It may or may not be the grain type you are feeding causing his issues. Any corn or molasses in it?
If you do want to start grain again, be sure to start out very slowly, then increase as time goes by.
Calfmanna will put on weight and nobel goat grower, which is now called Goat grower 16. At tractor supply, has ammonium chloride in it, for his urinary health to keep away UC.

I feed alfalfa hay to my boers but make sure they get ammonium chloride in that diet. Alfalfa put on weight as well as keeps them warmer.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> I don't see why that would not be fine. My first kelp was in the garden section of K-Mart. My "local" Wal-Mart has it too Just make certain it is all kelp, not mixed with crab shells or fertilizer or something.


Thank you! I just ordered it. And my boyfriend just got 10lbs of FlaxSeed and is on the way to give him some.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> Pig scour halt, did you give it for 3 days, 1 x a day and double the dosage it states on the bottle?
> 
> I tried to read through all the posts, but may of missed something so bare with me.
> I didn't see that he has received fortified vit B complex(thiamine). I would add that 6 cc's per 100 lbs SQ for 4 days minimum. This helps to rebuild his rumen. Along with goat or cattle probiotics. Cannot overdose either of these, can be used longer if need be.
> ...


@toth boer goats 
Thank you for the insight and yes there has been a lot to read through. He was getting the Noble goat from TSC mixed with Hubbard Life Starter / Grower w/ Decoxx, but I will cut that out. No molasses or corn and the feed is both pelleted. Sometimes I also give a handful of BOSS for the fat content.
He has been copper bolus'd I administer 3x per year and he just yesterday a combo of Replamin Plus, Selenium / Vit E gel, Vit ADE & B12.
His FAMACHA looks good but to me the inside of his mouth looks very pale almost like anemia but weird with pink lower eyelids. I have injectable B12 from the Vet as well as Bo-Se, if needed.
As far as hay, he gets 2nd cutting timothy hay, from the same supplier year round.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

I would give him some prbiotics give him more than the normal dose make sure that your not bobading his systom that could do more harm than good


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

Samamtha said:


> I would give him some prbiotics give him more than the normal dose make sure that your not bobading his systom that could do more harm than good


He has had probios, like at this point I think we should take up stock. This is not a new issue with him, it's been going on for over a year. Quite honestly I'm out of ideas, my vet kinda sucks when it comes to goats, and that is what has brought me here. I am to the point of where I'm at my last straw. His first set off offspring freshen this year, and if they don't impress me, he can go.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Thiamine is B-1. It is Rx from a vet, but Fortified B-complex has B-1 and you can get it anywhere. Like TSC


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Thiamine is B-1. It is Rx from a vet, but Fortified B-complex has B-1 and you can get it anywhere. Like TSC


I'm sorry I was not thinking clearly as reading through all of these. I do have the B1 from the vet. They will pretty much give me what I ask for, they just don't seem to care to attempt to determine the issue anymore.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

WillowSprings Farm said:


> He has had probios, like at this point I think we should take up stock. This is not a new issue with him, it's been going on for over a year. Quite honestly I'm out of ideas, my vet kinda sucks when it comes to goats, and that is what has brought me here. I am to the point of where I'm at my last straw. His first set off offspring freshen this year, and if they don't impress me, he can go.


We hear you, WillowSprings. About how long this has been going on, and lack of support from your vet.

My hope now is that there have been some things happening that have been working against your goals. We want to help you make those things go away, so that the helpful things have a chance to make headway. My hope is also to make the rest of your herd happier and healthier as well. Like with the cobalt, for instance. Or you figuring out how to entice a reluctant mineral licker to lick more of your minerals.

Really, you are not ever going to face justifying not keeping something that just won't work


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Thiamine is B-1. It is Rx from a vet, but Fortified B-complex has B-1 and you can get it anywhere. Like TSC


k I was just wondering I have b-complex.


WillowSprings Farm said:


> He has had probios, like at this point I think we should take up stock. This is not a new issue with him, it's been going on for over a year. Quite honestly I'm out of ideas, my vet kinda sucks when it comes to goats, and that is what has brought me here. I am to the point of where I'm at my last straw. His first set off offspring freshen this year, and if they don't impress me, he can go.


If his kids aren't better i would whether him and sell him as a pet


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

WillowSprings Farm said:


> They will pretty much give me what I ask for,...


Well, THAT is a blessing many of us don't have.


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

I'm truly sorry for the huge amount of frustration, time, energy, and hurt this must be causing you! He looks gorgeous on many different levels; the goat hoarder part of me wants to ask for udder pics of his dam and sire's dam, but I will resist. For the moment. Ha! I also want to commend you for doing as much as you have, in order to try to get him healthy; it is always my prayer when selling my fur babies that they go to a home such as yours, where they are well-cared for and loved.

Lots of good suggestions above; I especially like the suggestions of vit B and probiotics. Some random thoughts:
I know you said you tested for everything under the sun, but have you done a Johnes fecal test? More expensive but more accurate than the blood test. If he were mine, I'd run it, even if the blood had come back neg.

Has he had any bouts of coccidiosis in the past? Possibly as a baby? It can cause permanent damage to the intestinal tract of goats, causing them to be just generally unthrifty later in life. Their intestinal lining becomes scarred, which means they can eat all day but not be able to absorb the nutrients. Thus, hard keepers, without any apparent reason. I believe that can occur any time in a goat's life that they are struggling with it.

I'd ask the same kind of question in regards to pneumonia; has he had bouts that may have scarred his lungs, causing him to always be fighting for health? Another thing you could do is have a lab culture for Pasteurella and mycoplasma. Both of these can be present for a long time without any overt symptoms. Chances are your vet would give or sell you a single swab/tube combo; otherwise the lab I usually send to will take any sterile swab, in a red-top tube, in sterile water (super cheap). The culture itself I think I've paid like $5 for the both of them, but it might be something like myco or pasteurella that constantly drains away at his immune system without causing symptoms?

If you want to talk further about submitting to a lab directly, just let me know. Most labs will deal with owners directly. In the meantime, I'll re-read the whole thread tonight after I have a chance to ruminate on it a bit .


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

Thank you guys so much!! Your help and support has been overwhelming but oh so helpful!! I think we are going to take some baby steps for him. I will give him some Thiamine for a few days, Probios, Flax Seed, his usual minerals, and hay. See if that helps any, I don't want to throw the whole book at him at once. This is a daughter of his that is to freshen in March, fingers crossed. Thankfully I have not had any poop issues with his offspring (yes, I just knocked on my desk)


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

B-12 is OK but giving fortified vit B complex is packed wit all the important B's. Thiamine is crucial to keep away polio. I highly recommend getting some and giving it SQ. Oral vit B's won't do much. 
Straight thiamine is good for rumen to replenish thiamine. But I think he would be better with fortified vit B complex or high level vit B with 100 mg of thiamine in it. It will help.

The grain sounds OK. 

It won't hurt to give some iron like red cell for a few days only. That is 6 cc's er 100 lbs orally. 
If he is borderline eye wise, yet gums are pale. 
Don't look too long in the mouth, as it turns lighter the longer you do. It is when you first open it and look quickly. But the eye's are the most reliable source.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very pretty doe.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> Very pretty doe.


Thank you very much! I have kept 2 of his offspring as he's only given me 2 does LOL. Both of them did very well at our local fair, which makes all of the culling strings pull even harder.


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

@toth boer goats , I finally read the thread from you a few years back where you investigated whether you can give vit B orally or not. Though I don't prefer more pokes, I do love a good conclusive answer and am embarrassed that I may have not been as effective for my goats as I could've been, so thank you!
@WillowSprings Farm , you are not helping my hoarding tendencies. I am now fighting asking for their adga numbers to obsess over their pedigrees and looking at the map to see how far you are...


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@WillowSprings Farm you have had an expert on your side all along in Suzanne_Tyler, and now the other really big guns are starting to roll in, so I'm gonna take my puny mouthy self off for a while. You are in good hands.

@Kath G. I am so with you on the asking for dam and sire info on him. I've been stopping myself.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N001721328

For those inquiring minds  @mariarose and @Kath G.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

WillowSprings Farm said:


> http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N001721328
> 
> For those inquiring minds


And that doe in the pic - sadly grade 50% as prior owners never felt the need to register so her dam is NOA


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Flaxseed is full of tannin and oil, more likely to cause diarrhea than fix it. 
The Replamin plus is daily for one week then once a week until the animal is completely healthy. The dose doesn't change for this or that, it is chelated the minerals don't build up in the body. 
Timothy hay is way too low in protein, great for horses, goats need more. 
Never give antibiotics just because...
At this point quit trying to "fix" him, let him heal from all the endless stuff he's been given. 
Hay, alfalfa pellets, minerals, Replamin, cobalt block and leave him be unless he actually gets sick. 
The number one cause of chronic diarrhea is selenium and/or copper deficiencies.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

goathiker said:


> Flaxseed is full of tannin and oil, more likely to cause diarrhea than fix it.
> The Replamin plus is daily for one week then once a week until the animal is completely healthy. The dose doesn't change for this or that, it is chelated the minerals don't build up in the body.
> Timothy hay is way too low in protein, great for horses, goats need more.
> Never give antibiotics just because...
> ...


@goathiker I have Bo-Se on hand, should I give the Replamin or would you suggest Bo-Se?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

One doesn't replace the other. I would just let him be for awhile though. See how you jumped right to yet another injection? 
This could all be stress from never knowing when you're going the show up and stick him or shove something down his throat. .
Put 1/2 teaspoon Replamin in a tiny amount of grain to keep from having to force it on him. 
That's a 1/2 dose proper for a dwarf.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

goathiker said:


> One doesn't replace the other. I would just let him be for awhile though. See how you jumped right to yet another injection?
> This could all be stress from never knowing when you're going the show up and stick him or shove something down his throat. .
> Put 1/2 teaspoon Replamin in a tiny amount of grain to keep from having to force it on him.
> That's a 1/2 dose proper for a dwarf.


@goathiker I am sorry if you think I am quick to jump the gun, but that is far from the case. As stated in prior threads this has been on going for a little over a year. He is far from stressed let me assure you of that. He's the first to the gate and wants nothing more than to be with us. I'm not sure the need to be harsh. And as far as Replamin - he will suck it willingly out of the syringe, and he's not a dwarf, so I'm pretty certain its 5cc.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

There's another thread with almost the same thing going on with a Nigerian lol. 
Not trying to be harsh, just frustrated at seven pages of things to shove down or stick the poor animal with. People are still coming up with even more


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@WillowSprings Farm goathiker is right about what too much flax seed will do. I did NOT make it clear that was not to dry up the diarrhea, but to sooth the gut lining. I also did NOT make it clear the amounts I was talking about, I just said a little bit to entice your buck to lick minerals, or little bit to make healing slime. I'm sorry I was not careful and caused confusion. Also, when you asked, I told you how I feed and supplement my herd, in my circumstances, and when it is in good health. But I did not clarify any of that, I just said, "I do this and that" and I did not say why, when, or make it clear that not everything I do is suitable for all goats everywhere.

If I have caused you harm or confusion, I am truly sorry. No, you obviously can't do nothing and let him keep scouring. But you can't do everything either. You have been very attentive and asked excellent, intelligent questions. It'll be OK.


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## WillowSprings Farm (Dec 5, 2017)

goathiker said:


> There's another thread with almost the same thing going on with a Nigerian lol.
> Not trying to be harsh, just frustrated at seven pages of things to shove down or stick the poor animal with. People are still coming up with even more


@goathiker prior to last nights dosing of the Replamin this goat has not had anything else - put into his body since he was last dewormed in September. And the only reason he was dewormed was because he needed it. Last nights dosing was for all across the board since their last copper bolusing was done in May.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Why don't you take him off grain and the decoxx and just give him all the hay he wants. He should maintain his current weight on hay alone if it is good protein hay. Plus make the minerals available to him, I don't like to force feed minerals other than copper. Which brings up a good question ? have you given him copper boluses a couple of times a year ? Also I mix Diamond V yeast with my loose goat minerals. They love the Diamond V yeast ( it is a powder) and by mixing it with the minerals it keeps them from eating too much. Just some thoughts. Hope he gets well. I love his color!


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

I think I have yet to read a post from goathiker and not learn something new. I am incredibly thankful for people like goathiker who are willing to educate, to share from their experience and knowledge base, to read a situation and try to offer the best advice they have to give. They have had a _profound_ effect on my ability to keep my herd healthy, and many other herds too. People who are willing to chime in with their years of experience offer just that- literally cumulative lifetimes of goat experience, and multitudes of differing perspectives in that.

So much of goats is unfortunately trial and error, and when you can't get a hold of what's wrong... over the course of over a year of struggling with an issue... I think posts are usually looking for further suggestions; things they might've missed or possibilities they weren't aware of or health connections they hadn't made. I think people (including me) are coming up with even more things because we all love our animals, want the best for them, and want WillowSprings Farm to walk away with an arsenal of things to try; new possibilities to exhaust; new leads to run down; but likely serially, not all at once.

@WillowSprings Farm, it's obvious that your animals are well-taken care of and loved, and that you've been diligent in seeking out health for your buck, over the challenge of an extended period of time. It's your prerogative and responsibility to thoughtfully read through (wade through? slog through?lol) the many responses you have in front of you, and decide what you feel is going to serve you and your buck best; and based on your history of methodically and carefully tending this buck, I trust you will do so wisely. Please do let me know how you proceed, and how things shake out!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

When is your Replamin Plus coming in? Mine has been shipped. It looks like we'll be trying it out together soon.

Funny story. When I ordered (online) the pneumonia vaccine, the replamin, a couple other things, there was a section where it asked for additional comments. Generally that is for extra delivery instructions, like "Put in Barn" etc. Since ours is a funny set up not conducive to getting a delivery truck in and out easily, I often put something like "Call and I'll come to the road and get it" I was in a hurry because of dawdling over the catalogue, and simply put my number and "Please call" 

Well yesterday, the company called. The company I placed the order with, not the delivery company. I had told them to call and so they did! 

Now, that is what I call customer service! AND she typed in special delivery instructions herself.

Quite happy with that company. I think I'll order from them again.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

TexasGoatMan said:


> Why don't you take him off grain and the decoxx and just give him all the hay he wants.


She has.



TexasGoatMan said:


> He should maintain his current weight on hay alone if it is good protein hay.


It is Timothy, not high protein, and he needs to put weight on, not maintain it.



TexasGoatMan said:


> Plus make the minerals available to him, I don't like to force feed minerals other than copper.


Good minerals are available, but illness often needs supplementation. And conditions causing malabsorption also need more supplementation.



TexasGoatMan said:


> Which brings up a good question ? have you given him copper boluses a couple of times a year


She has



TexasGoatMan said:


> Also I mix Diamond V yeast with my loose goat minerals.


What would that be recommended for (So that Willow Springs can evaluate how that fits into the plan of attack)?



TexasGoatMan said:


> I love his color!


The colour certainly is eye-popping. And the conformation ain't bad, either!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Mariarose
Try tractor supply on the colbalt blocks again. Mine wouldn’t carry them either when I checked last year or maybe the year before I can’t remember but I went there the other day and they had a whole pallet of them sitting out front.
For breaking them, put glasses on!! And then get a ax and with the sharp side hit it down the middle, it usually takes a few hits to get it and usually have to hit it on more then one side
Also mariarose I have considered those boluses can I ask you how big are they? Like the size of a 2gram or 4 gram copper bolus? I actually wanted to try them on a few kids and was just going to break them apart but realized it’s one chunk in the middle of the bolus so never did get them and play with them


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Jessica84 said:


> Try tractor supply on the colbalt blocks again.


NOPE, Mine won't budge. Kinda like your TSC and the mineral you wanted. Which mine carries as a matter of course. But I just have to break free and talk to the Redmond dealer I found. I've never been there, but I've driven by it. It isn't that far, just not in a direction I ever go. No biggie. I really like Redmond's reputation anyway.



Jessica84 said:


> For breaking them, put glasses on!! And then get a ax and with the sharp side hit it down the middle, it usually takes a few hits to get it and usually have to hit it on more then one side


I have a logsplitter (because KY can heat with wood, take that California Girl!) That might work too.



Jessica84 said:


> Also mariarose I have considered those boluses can I ask you how big are they? Like the size of a 2gram or 4 gram copper bolus?


Do you know the size of the calf bolus of copper? the 12.5 grams? That is the size in diameter of the cobalt bolus. However, it is shorter. I've never had a problem with them taking it with a balling gun, but I don't give them to young'uns. I used to stuff even more copper oxide rods in them because no matter what my goats always needed more copper.



Jessica84 said:


> was just going to break them apart


You can not break them apart. If breaking them apart had been one of the labours assigned to Hercules, he would have failed. So I gave it whole. Never had a problem, even with my Pygmies. I never gave it to baby Pygmies...

I'm glad your TSC is seeing sense!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol for every rule/ law we have here there is one that says the total opposite. My wood stove is the only way to heat my house so I don’t even listen to what they say on that. Burning brush though I do :/
Ok it sounds like the boluses are the size of what I use for my adult Goats for the copper when I make them up. Yeah no way I can shove that down a kid I’ll just stick to the blocks for the does.
With the price amazon and other places want for shipping alone on those blocks it would be worth the trip to go to another place.
I have 2 different ways for me to go too. One is to Fresno which has a TSC, a grocery store and a clean Walmart that I like. The other way has a feed store that I get my grain for the kids, also has everything I need but I hate their Walmart and the town and feel very lucky to make it home alive lol it’s very full of gangs and people on serious drugs......so I try not to go that way unless I need


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## confederatemule (Jan 19, 2016)

We were feeding our young buck and his wether buddy grain with meat maker minerals as well as hay. To get rid of poop stuck together we started feeding hay only. I call the hay grass hay. It comes from my field. As long as they get no grain everything is fine.


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## Jewel52 (May 9, 2016)

WillowSprings Farm said:


> I'm seeking advise on a problem child of mine. He is a Nubian buck coming 2 yrs old in February. He is by far my hardest keeper! I swear that just the wind blowing in a different direction makes him scour. I have pretty much been battling this with him ever since he was weaned from the bottle and he is no where near where I think he should be size wise for his age. His FAMACHA is good, I have had him tested for everything possible (all negative), I do not change his diet (as I'm fearful), and he constantly either has scours or dog type poop. He has free choice minerals (that I feel are decent quality), free feed hay, and gets 3 cups of a pelleted feed with decoxx in it. It seems like whenever we get it cleared up, it starts again.
> 
> On the plus side - there's a lot of sentimental value (which I think is why I cannot just let him go), his offspring do very well, and his personality is very laid back / trusting.
> 
> Does anyone have any advise on what I can do to try and fix / figure out this scour thing. I asked the vet, they're not really into goats, so they said cull. I appreciate any feedback, but please no bashing.


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## Jewel52 (May 9, 2016)

WillowSprings Farm said:


> I'm seeking advise on a problem child of mine. He is a Nubian buck coming 2 yrs old in February. He is by far my hardest keeper! I swear that just the wind blowing in a different direction makes him scour. I have pretty much been battling this with him ever since he was weaned from the bottle and he is no where near where I think he should be size wise for his age. His FAMACHA is good, I have had him tested for everything possible (all negative), I do not change his diet (as I'm fearful), and he constantly either has scours or dog type poop. He has free choice minerals (that I feel are decent quality), free feed hay, and gets 3 cups of a pelleted feed with decoxx in it. It seems like whenever we get it cleared up, it starts again.
> 
> On the plus side - there's a lot of sentimental value (which I think is why I cannot just let him go), his offspring do very well, and his personality is very laid back / trusting.
> 
> Does anyone have any advise on what I can do to try and fix / figure out this scour thing. I asked the vet, they're not really into goats, so they said cull. I appreciate any feedback, but please no bashing.


No


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## Jewel52 (May 9, 2016)

I have 16 goats and about a year ago my lamancha had dog like poop I gave her pet pectillan diarrhea medication for dogs and cats but works great on goats to. The small bottle on amazon 4 fl ounce more concentrate then the big bottle. Gave her 3 tablespoons a day for three days and her poop went back to normal. I found out the place I was buying my hay certain type of grass hay or something In it was what caused it. I buy my hay from somewhere else now and no longer have the problem.


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## rhawks (Sep 21, 2014)

Good luck with the cobalt block. I ended up having to order one awhile back. I'm in Northeast Ohio and every dealer told me they could not order the block for me because we are not a deficient area and they simply couldn't get them. I think I ended up paying $25 to get one.


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## JennyB (Mar 4, 2015)

I have a Nubian boy with the same problem. I have spent so much time and money on him and we still have issues. But, big but, he's OK, he just has sloppy poop! After years we've concluded, along with our patient vet, that his bowel was damaged as a youngster, likely to have been Barber's Pole. So we drench every 4 weeks (if we miss he's a mess). Make sure he has all the salts available and plenty of fresh water and hay at all times. If you can put up with the poop then just accept this is him. My vet said cull too – but no need for me to be that drastic as we cope. Give him a big squeeze from me please! Oh should say, my fella is so tiny, so much smaller than the other boys – hey but the girls llllooooovvvvveeeee him


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## JennyB (Mar 4, 2015)

WillowSprings Farm said:


> Thank you for the compliments on him, I have so many mixed emotions about it. I think I will wait and see as his first set of daughters will be freshening this year, and I'd like to see what they have in store.
> 
> This is the mineral I currently have out - however, they seem to refuse to eat it.
> 
> ...


Oh just seen your other post, "trouble with Barber's pole". I certainly would say his bowel was damaged as it was developing. He's OK, just sloppy poop, keep on top of drenching, loads of water, salts on demand and hay. He will lead a happy life. He looks exactly like my "little bloke".


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

@JennyB what do you drench your buck with?


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## PB_Nubians (Jan 17, 2017)

Hello and sorry you are having problems with your buck. He has beautiful color to him. 
I could not help but read that he has been having problems since the bottle. If you don't mind me asking, was he pulled and put straight on the bottle from day one? Was he given his mothers colostrum or a powdered substitute? I realize everyone has their own way of doing things and that is fine. My only concern is that goats do not get a strong immune system and tend to be sickly and problematic when not given the proper start in life. I have tried raising my kids both ways and will Dam raise kids from now on or at least give them their moms colostrum for the first couple days. I realize that it poses problems with selling kids from neg. herds and unexposed to transfer from mom to offspring but I except that as an outcome. I lost a few kids and have had chronic issues with others that we pulled straight to the bottle. I am not getting down on anyone for their way of doing things I am just trying to help figure out what may be his problem.

Pepto works well for scours and electrolytes in the water to help with dehydration. 

Just for a reference I feed my breeders 1 quart of feed in the morning and 1 quart in the evening during the rut along with free choice hay and mineral. This works for me to keep weight on them.

Merry Christmas and I hope everything works out for you. God Bless.


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