# Take Responsibility as a breeder!!!



## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I'm sorry, I have to post this. It's driving me MAD.

As breeders we need to take responsibility for our stock. We need to sell healthy animals with genetics we would like passed on. Lately I have seen WAY too many BIG breeders that are supposed to be wonderful sell sick goats with defects!!

It's one thing if it's a defect that we can't tell ex. a heart issue/genetic fault you can't tell, but it's another thing if we sell animals with issues as breeding stock.

Also, I understand goats get sick from shipping stress, ect. But we need to NOT ship sick kids intentionally!!! :GAAH: It is not fair to other people shipping goats with the same shipper or to the person buying your sick goat.

People do ANYTHING in this time and age to sell a goat.. *buyer beware*!!!


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## Itchysmom (Apr 3, 2010)

I think this happens with all livestock..I know it does with horses. I agree..shame on the seller!


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## logansmommy7 (Nov 11, 2009)

RunAround said:


> I'm sorry, I have to post this. It's driving me MAD.
> 
> As breeders we need to take responsibility for our stock. We need to sell healthy animals with genetics we would like passed on. Lately I have seen WAY too many BIG breeders that are supposed to be wonderful sell sick goats with defects!!
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting-in my opinion, herd health should be of UTMOST importance. It is disheartening to think you would pay LOTS of money for an animal, and receive them sick. You pay for a HEALTHY animal when you pay the price for good breeding stock. It is sad that you REALLY have to question what you are getting, especially from established breeders.


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## coltrule (Mar 24, 2011)

I TOTTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!! When I sell my goats I give them a feet trimeed and they get wormed..and all around checkup and if I ever do find one sick that I was going to sell or found a problem with it ( I ain't so far) I will tell the buyer I found this one him/her or she/him don't look good and may be sick...if you want i'll sell if not let me get her/him back healthy before I sell! This is a GREAT thread


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I have a very small herd, only recently have I had registered dwarfs, for years I had pygmy/dwarf crosses and even then, I absolutely refuse to have any kid leave my property that is anything but healthy.

I do sell the pygmy/dwarf kids as pets and I do a check on each kid regardless of the papers to ensure that each has 2 teats, straight feet etc.
I've had a few pet kids with teat spurs or an extra teat but they are pets, I also let the buyer know of any "flaws".

I also keep records of each kid from the time it's born til the time it leaves, weights, meds etc and anything extra I may have done.

IMO...A "big name" breeder got their rep as a conscientuos breeder who had the time to care for and about their goats at one time, if they no longer take the care that started them out, then they should either downsize or take stock in how things have changed for them.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Good post Ashley. :thumb: I think it's sad that sick or known defect animals would be shipped to a buyer after you have invested a lot of money to purchase the animal and shipping costs to have it arrive and not be at all what you would want to purchase. It's even more sad to hear that well established breeders are doing this.

However, breeders can and do make mistakes on occasion. BUT if you make a mistake then you need to take responsibility for it. When I sell a goat, horse, really any animal...I am happy to help as best I can after the purchase. I think as a breeder, that is something important. That means...no ignoring emails or phone calls. If someone has a problem with one of my animals...I want to know about it and I will try and help as much as I can. 

I think as buyers though we need to be on our toes and ask lots of questions and request lots of photos. I have reserved kids in the past with just a few basic questions and I realize now how much trouble that could have gotten me into because I didn't ask more questions. When you can't go look at a goat in person and you're thinking of shipping, the more questions the better and if the seller isn't willing to answer a bunch of questions, then they should be prepared to lose that buyer as a customer.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

What kind of questions should be asked?

I am thinking of getting a buck from another state. I will probably end up picking him based on pictures, and a clean bill of health. I won't have him shipped, I will be going to pick him up, so if he isn't what was presented, I will be able to back out, but just to avoid a LONG drive, it would be nice to be sure he is what I really want.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

This is awesome info: http://promisedlandfarm.net/caveatemptor.htm

And I agree, we all make mistakes. I admit I've made my share, but I have learned from them.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Very good link Ashley! That pretty much says it all.

Now I will add that I've had difficulties in setting out to do a milk test on my 2 girls...not for lack of trying but the hindrence I've come upon. I do keep barn sheets on production but it's unofficial and I really cannot afford to be off work for the amount of time required to show so that isn't an option for me either...so regardless of the fact that I don't/can't show or have official production records, I do believe that I have 2 does that have produced kids that have conformed to the breed standard and they also have done well in my milk pail.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I agree, not everyone is going to have production records, but I think the large farms, that are on milk test, should show their records. Them just saying the doe makes a lot of milk isn't good enough. 

Personally i love the backyard, breeders that take care of their animals. I would rather buy from a nice backyard herd with good animals. 

The problem with a lot of big herd names now is that they will just say the udder is good and you should take their word for it... because they "KNOW" what they are doing. I get tired of the BS.. :GAAH:


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

:applaud: I agree! Having been on the receiving end of getting sick goats who died on me after spending a small fortune at the vet, I know how it feels. Of course, I wouldn't intentionally sell someone a sick animal anyway even if I hadn't gone through that experience. What goes around comes around.
I did recently sell three does and their kids. I called today to check that everything was okay and to say it was time for their CD-T. Tomorrow I am going out to give the CD-T's because the new owner isn't sure how. I wish I would have had that same consideration when I was new and buying a new herd....would have saved a lot of money and heartache. Some have forgotten the whole "do unto others" portion of life in exchange for a quick buck.
I know sometimes the breeder just doesn't know and things can go wrong, but then it's time to make it right. I do believe that those irresponsible breeders are the exception and not the rule because "goat people" as a whole are awesome. :grouphug:


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

I totally agree with everything Ashley!

Although I have about 15 goats, im not able to do milk testing, but I do show and make sure to let customers know EVERYTHING. I say the truth and sometimes they dont buy, most of the time people love the honesty. I also am very loyal and provide any help even after the goat is gone. I ahve gone out in the middle of the night to help with birthing a goat, even though im not getting anything in return. I still talk to people I sold goats too years ago! Thats what people love about me, I ALWAYS answer my phone and emails!

I have never had experience with shipping but ive heard some nasty stories from my friends and the breeders are VERY well known. Its such a shame the way some of them act like they are the coolest people ever, alot never answer emails, never answer phones, unless you wave the money in there faces. I hate it

Im just glad there are good breeders still out there, that can be trusted and have good hearts


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Well I'm glad to know other people care about their animals too!

I've done the same. I've gone to other people, even if they haven't bought goats from me, and helped them kid out does, disbud, band, ect. 

I've also sold goats that have gotten sick right after leaving, it happens with stress, so I try to offer any support that I can in that time. I always worry about my babies when they leave. I'm not trying to say goats shouldn't get sick.. it's just the nerve of some breeders to know they are sick, do nothing for several days... then ship them... ARG!

I understand that an owner can't go out and buy a $80 bottle of medicine for their herd of two goats, and I offer alternatives, and give free medicine when I can. I can't always give things up for free, but when I see someone needs a hand up I try to give it and hope the same will be returned to me when I am in need. 

Sometimes I wonder.. what happened to these breeders to make them not care? To turn into ""Puppy Mills"?


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

Maybe they just get tired? Sick of all of it? Im not sure.

My friend had a REALLY expensive buck shipped, we went to the airport, and they said he died. WOW, we were heart broken, we called the breeder and they said that he was acting "weird" today. UM then WHY WOULD YOU SHIP HIM??

It breaks my heart to know people, especially breeders who we are supossed to trust, can go and do something like that. OH and my friend asked for a refund or to get a buck of the same value for free, and now the breeder is ignoring us....sad....pathetic....


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree. It really is sad to know what breeders do to make a $$$. Newbies are their fave customers, because they are unsuspecting or uneducated about a certain goats show potential etc.... you talk to them on the phone, email etc.... and they sound like a class act breeding establishment with no skipped steps in their goats care. You soon start to see these breeders for who they really are after things go a miss.

The most aggrevating thing to me is when a breeder big into showing and such that is oh so devoted to this breed sells goats with genetic flaws. Goats with bad legs etc.... oh look at this pedigree and such, but as a new owner you don't see these flaws and they won't dare mention them even though they know your intention is to breed and show someday. You think your getting a good deal on multiple goats, but in honesty they are just dumping off their culls on and unsuspecting person. I think it should be a breeders responsibility to make sure they are impacting the breed in a posative way. Only quality stock should walk out your doors with papers. Okay so you had to take less money for a doe sold with no papers that didn't make the grade, but at least you didn't flood the area with culls. You can spend a lifetime building your name and in one moment you can run it into the ground. Treat others how you want to be treated and above all just be honest.


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

Amy: YOU just reminded me of something!! Im NOT saying the breeder, messege me privately if you would like to know. But a very well known breeder near me bought a buck from a BIGGGG farm, like super nice, well shes very good with confirmation, and in the buck pics sent to her, she noticed his legs looked hocky, so she asked the breeder and they said " ya those lines tend to be hocky at first and then straighten out, its no big deal, hes already showing improvement". WELL when she got him home after shipping him, his legs were BAD! LIKE REALLY BAD, SUPER HOCKY!

This breeder that lied to my friend, LOVES to prey on newbies, I sent them an email and they led me on about so many goats, saying all of the kids were excellent, but most people have told me, DONT get a goat from them unless you know what to look for, it would be best to see the goat and talk to them in person. NOW im not saying this breeder is like this to everyone all the time, just have heard alot of stories from close friends about them....


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Yeah, I've seen that happen before.


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Or how about..... it's just a slow growing line they will grow...... Ha! yeah right...... I do realize there are slow growing lines out there, but stunted is stunted no matter how much grain, wormings, cocci med, copper boluses you throw at them the damage has already been done.


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

YEP!!

Ive heard that way too many times here. I normally just say, ok sorry, I dont like to deal with slow growing lines, too much possibilities of it being something worse. I recently got kinda screwed with a doeling. Shes 3 months old and the size of a month old goat, actually shes even smaller than my 5 week old babies, shes like SUPER tiny! but apparently shes been like that since birth, and she doesnt have cocci or worms. well im not doing that again!


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## wookiee (Oct 26, 2009)

I've got a logistics question. I have four senior does. I've tried to find hosts for linear appraisal, tried to get my does out and shown, tried to get them in production, but I find that the cost is prohibitive for so few does, or I am ignored completely by ADGA and other breeders.

How can small-time breeders who want to do right by their herds "break into" the big time? I don't want 15 goats or 50 goats, but the four I do have come from good lines, are good producers, and I would like them to be recognized as such.

I signed up for linear appraisal and my host just cancelled. I don't know any other hosts, I can't afford the minimum fee by myself for four does. Very frustrated. I really wanted to get my girls appraised to help me improve my herd.

I know it sounds like I am complaining, but I am honestly trying to do right by these does. One I bought from a VERY BIG NAME BREEDER and her kids are selling for $700. Now that I have her (an unknown), I can't sell the kids for $300. Same doe, same kids. I just don't have the show records or big name to prove she's a nice doe.

So if you are small time, but committed, how can you prove it to buyers? I will say that all my buyers (as few as they are), come back for more kids, so I am doing something right, but I can't "compete" against the bigger herds with all the records even with the same does.

Any advice would be appreciated!!


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## Sunny Daze (May 18, 2010)

Good post! I completely agree that my dealings with smaller breeders have been much less stressful and more pleasant overall. I think it is easier for smaller breeders to keep on top of herd health and overall they tend to be more honest and up front. 

Sometimes you do learn these lessons the hard way!

Wookie, it can be frustrating starting out like that. I have known people who buy a bunch of goats from someone who sells them for x amount, thinking they can do the same even though they are just starting out. But you really can't until you have built a a reputation. A lot of it is about the name...Same thing with horses too. You could have a horse at a big fancy show barn and sell it for $20,000, or you can have it in a nice, but small backyard stable and maybe get $5,000!


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

The guy I bought Milky Way and Talala from seem to be running into a lot of these problems lately, especially with the big name breeders (and I'm talking THE big name breeders). He payed over $1200 for a buck kid, died 2 days after he got home. Turns out the kid was over 5 weeks and had never gotten a CD/T shot, neither had his dam, etc. Just a bad deal all around. Same story with the does he bought along with Milky Way. Nice pedigree (some of his own lines in there), nice looking, supposedly one of them threw a National Champion doe kid, 2/5 tested positive for CAE and one has constant foundering problems.

On the other hand, the breeder I got my Saanens from has been nothing but helpful from the get-go. If I needed help in their care, she did everything she could, including free doses of medications (like Bo-Se for Jenny's kids), free care (ultrasounds for both does) and even killer deals on good goats (Jenny was actually free, Maverick only cost me $100, and Barclay's only costing me $100).


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

in some of the same state Wookie

I have some gorgeous animals and some worth noting but I do know that my name isnt recognizable yet so people wont pay teh big bucks. And so far thats ok with me. I bought all mine on deals anyway 

As to the LA - yup my host herd cancelled on me too. so I know the disapointment. As to shows - you just have to find that one breeder who has some contacts and who will help you get involved.

Some how i found out that AGS was having a show at the NJ state fair. So for my birthday 4 years ago I told my dad I wanted to go watch. We did and the show secretary happend to be Gail Putcher. She then put my name down and put me on an email list to receive notice when goat shows were happening and other information. I now am part of two clubs and two email lists for shows. Its all about making contacts in your "area"


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## wookiee (Oct 26, 2009)

Thanks everyone, there's some good advice here as always.

I am trying to make more connections and I honestly don't expect to make big money, but the "name dropping" etc is frustrating in Nigis. If everyone read PromisedLand's link, they would look at the animal and not the herd name. I keep detailed records, get my herd tested once a year, keep my memberships and registrations up, etc. This thread really resonated with me because I WANT to be a responsible breeder. 

To Sunny Daze's point, if people's experience with big name herds is often not great, why are they unwilling to give the little guys a try? I do not expect to sell the kids for the same price as big name people, but I can't even get people to look at them because I am nobody and only have a couple to sell each year. Same goats, same bucks, same kids. I am working on building a good reputation but it seems like the big guys have bad reputations and still sell the kids because of the all important herd name. Crazy world. I watch Stacey and others, Phoenix Rising, etc, on here and would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone looking. Do you have to bring in a big name buck to market kids? Was the $1200 buckling really worth it objectively or was it trying to get some named lines into the herd, etc? I am not judging, just asking rhetorically.

Very true about horses, but I've been in horses my whole life so I guess I know what I am doing more, how to navigate in that world. I feel like herd name is more important sometimes than the actual animal with how people act. I ride eventers so performance is MUCH more important than pedigree so I tend to focus on the animal and what she is capable of.

I spent a lot of time and money getting my four does from Big Name lines (and yes, had some health issues), thinking it would help me market and sell the kids into good homes, but it looks like now I could have bought from "less known" but quality breeders and come out ahead. There's a good lesson there. I now look at the animals and the breeder that stands behind them when looking for replacements.

I am sure once I find a more welcoming local crowd, I will be much happier with my little herd situation.  

(sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread with discussion of herd names, this just got me fired up!)


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

I think once you get your name out people will be more interested. When you first start out, just because you have nice goats doesnt mean people will just start buying. You need to get your name out, tell people about you, show them who you are! It took me almost 2 years to start having people want goats from me, now I have reservations filled and not enough kids lol. But when I first started NO ONE cared, I had to go out and tell people who I was, how my goats were, what my herd was aiming for, all that stuff. It doesnt necasarily mean you need to go show and do milk tests and stuff. Just try to get the word out  

I am also a small farm


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm going along, reading the posts, agreeing with what people are saying, and I see 'sunny daze' pop into the discussion and think, 'where have I seen that name lately?' and realize that in my buck search, the person who has been most up-front and informational to me has a sunny daze buck. And he is absolutely beautiful.


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## wookiee (Oct 26, 2009)

Thanks, Tiny Hooves, that is inspirational.

I thought about what I've written here and I think it came out the wrong way. Here is what I am trying to say.

I have goats for milk. If I could get milk without kids (and the complications from delivery), believe me, I would do it. I am not trying to light the world on fire being a great goat breeder. However, since you must breed to get milk, I have taken that obligation seriously. I have done everything I can to research and learn and participate so I can, at the minimum, do a service to the breed. I research pedigrees and try to get the best buck I can for my does. Just because I need to breed to get milk doesn't mean I need to breed indiscriminately or not do right by the kids. I take that responsibility very seriously.

Then I see Run Around's call for responsible breeders! Well, I tell ya , I think I am a responsible breeder in that I stand behind my kids and sell honest, healthy animals, but because I am not primarily a breeder, and I want to stay small, I think the deck is stacked against me. From LA with ADGA to participating in DHI programs, the fewer does you have, the more $$ per doe to "be responsible". 

I think there should be a place for people who are trying to do the right thing but their first love is the milk, not the showing, not the breeding. I got the best does I could afford so I could do right for them. What I have learned is that unless I am willing to drop my other responsibilities to pursue getting my name out, there's no place for a quality but no name kid crop. I am not saying life needs to be fair, but that's a bittersweet lesson to learn. There is nothing wrong with these kids but they were born at the wrong farm. My hat is off to all the breeders who market and produce excellent kids. I understand how much work that is.

I am going to do my darndest to live up to my does and do right by their kids and try again for LA next year. This board is a constant inspiration for me. Seriously, a constant inspiration. To hear that the people I consider successful and improvers of the breed started in the same place makes me feel so much better.


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

This thread is really great!

I too have been.....well...tricked? by a big breeder. Bought amazing goats (boers), they were big, healthy, all that and more. Get them home, they are good for about a month. But then they aren't creepfed anymore, or full of medications to keep them healthy, and they start losing weight and going down hill. I lost them all except two. 
But all of the goats I have bought from smaller breeders have been nothing but wonderful.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

^I don't really think the breeder is to blame on that one. How would they trick you if they sold you healthy, good looking animals and were great for a whole month after you purchased them? You said they were big, healthy, and amazing when you got them and were good for a month and then started to go downhill. That sounds like a change in management practices where the other goats were being pampered and yours weren't being as pampered as the breeders goats. Now in that case, I wouldn't see that as being the breeders fault at all. 

When I think of an irresponsible breeder, I am thinking of a breeder who lies about a goat, sells a goat that is sick, breeds goats without a purpose or goal in mind, is concerned about money above all else, etc.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I am about a hair away from loosing it on a certain breeder right now. ALL my goats have gotten sick because of their sick stock they pawned off on me...


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Oh no Ashley...I am so so sorry!! What an awful situation. Have they tried to work with you on this "issue" at all?


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## logansmommy7 (Nov 11, 2009)

KW Farms said:


> Oh no Ashley...I am so so sorry!! What an awful situation. Have they tried to work with you on this "issue" at all?


 I wondered the same thing, have they tried to work out the issues at all with you? :?


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Nope, they screwed me over $250 dollars and at least $200 in medications and supplies


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

wookiee said:


> Thanks, Tiny Hooves, that is inspirational.
> 
> I thought about what I've written here and I think it came out the wrong way. Here is what I am trying to say.
> 
> ...


*I TOTALLY AGREE AND CAN RELATE TO WHAT YOU HAVE SAID!*


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

RunAround said:


> Nope, they screwed me over $250 dollars and at least $200 in medications and supplies


That's just so wrong. :veryangry:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Just remember this Ashley... WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND It may be wrong to think that way but I truly feel that those who do what you've experienced end up being sorry for it sooner or later :hug:


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## logansmommy7 (Nov 11, 2009)

RunAround said:


> Nope, they screwed me over $250 dollars and at least $200 in medications and supplies


 What Liz said Ashley, what goes around comes around AND Karma is a well, a you know what....


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

yah - I had this happen to me by a "well known" breeder last year - shipped in 2 extremely stunted goats and done VERY sick one from her. Said I could give the one to a pet home and she would give me my money (350.00 for just her - no shipping or anything) STILL almost a YEAR later have not seen a scent. Male I sold before I even used him - and was honest with the person - he is stunted! The third one in the shipment was SO full of cocci it was NUTS and spent alot of money treating the entire herd. Vet even said there was NO WAY that she didn't come in loaded! Vet couldn't even believe she was alive! Then the breeder also charged me 50.00 A PIECE for a health cert - called her vet - nope 25.00 for ALL THREE on one cert (which they were all on one and shipped together).... so screwed me out of ANOTHER 125 there! I was SHOCKED ... even gave her an option to settle, nope, had the lawyer write her a letter of demand - REFUSES to pay even for the one that I gave away as she said to do, returned the papers like I was supposed to, admitted she received them - and STILL not a penny.....

Thats ok - Karma is a B**** and I have not forgotten and either has the lawyer ;-)


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

KW Farms said:


> ^I don't really think the breeder is to blame on that one. How would they trick you if they sold you healthy, good looking animals and were great for a whole month after you purchased them? You said they were big, healthy, and amazing when you got them and were good for a month and then started to go downhill. That sounds like a change in management practices where the other goats were being pampered and yours weren't being as pampered as the breeders goats. Now in that case, I wouldn't see that as being the breeders fault at all.
> 
> When I think of an irresponsible breeder, I am thinking of a breeder who lies about a goat, sells a goat that is sick, breeds goats without a purpose or goal in mind, is concerned about money above all else, etc.


I do believe what she said does fall under good breedership - no goat should NEED to be on a creep feeder and all other pampering. If her other goats are fine and just the ones from a certain breeder/farm are actually dying then I think there is a pattern and falls under this category


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh dear Allison! That is so wrong! 

Personally i don't buy from big breeders because i don't want to be a transplant of their herd. I want to build up a good reputation built on my own merit. Now im also glad i didn't buy from them because of all you all are saying and what I've heard in the past. 

I hope i never get a big head


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

That is really terrible Allison. I know you were so excited about those goats too.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

liz said:


> wookiee said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, Tiny Hooves, that is inspirational.
> ...


That is exactly where I am also. I am trying to find the best buck I can, within my limited budget, so I can breed my does for milk, and sell the babies to someone else who might find them valuable (like 4-Hers) If I just wanted milk I could get an unregistered buck from the local petting zoo/farm for $40 (which is what I paid for my first doe, Bailey) and just breed whatever.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Sorry - just reread what I posted - could tell I was on my pain meds, so please excuse the typing - LOL!

I do have to say though - I have worked with 2 other breeders that are very large and well known and have NOT had one issue at all with their stock or working with them. The animal were all healthy, I absolutely LOVE them and am buying from them again!! So it is not all big breeders - but ask around of others that have bought from a farm you are looking at and see what their experience has been.


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## wookiee (Oct 26, 2009)

Allison, I am so sorry to hear this. I also got my herd sick from a big breeder in our area last year (I am in New Hampshire).

Here is my thread from last year.

viewtopic.phpf=5&t=15847&hilit=pseudomonas

At the time, someone pmed me and she also had an issue with the same breeder. Makes me very, very nervous to bring in any new stock.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Well it's soured me for sure... I'm never going to buy from another large breeder again. I'm done with it, herd closed.. and I'm really doubting I will even show after this, just do LA, maybe one day milk test.. thats IT!


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

Well, I couldn't think of a word other then tricked at that moment. Lol. But basically they didnt tell us anything about how they were fed or that that they were hopped up on medications. So when we bought them, unknowing that they were ALWAYS on feed (these does were over a year and a half, still on the creepfeeder as I was told after they started going down hill).
So, in my mind, it was a little.... I don't know what the word would be. But I don't think trick was the word.


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

And I am so sorry you are going through that RunAround! That is just awful


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

I have been screwed over on chicken purchases in the past, but not goats. They were advertised as expensive SQ quality chickens - they were nice, but I didn't find out until later they had a major flaw that they passed to every chick they had. So I ended up with a flock of pet quality cute chickens. But even purchasing several pairs was nowhere close to the cost of one goat. 

Thank you so much for bringing up this topic. It is very timely for me and has really made me think about how careful I need to be and not just go on 'name dropping'


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

I started like that, breeding for milk then deciding I could make a little extra money on the side if I acquired good lines. Boy, did I ever learn otherwise. Thankfully I'm learning from my mistakes.
I'm currently in the predicament as another poster - trying to get milk tests and LA. I'm meeting with another breeder later this month though, hopefully in the future I can participate in these. 

I agree about buying from small breeders, they take more care of their animals... Definitely more quality. 
I recently had arranged to buy an animal from a very large dairy. When asking if they had a picture of the dam's udder, they claimed to not have a photo because the dam had gotten gangrene mastitis. But then later commented that she had a beautiful udder... Really? Which is it? If it's so beautiful, I want a photo. Lol.


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Amos, that is a classic about the udder pics. Had this done to me several times, only they were either going to get them to me sometime (Never) or they didn't have a camera or sold the doe etc.... if her udder was as they claimed why sell the doe for one, second you just made more than enough money to buy a good camera from the goats I just purchased and third what do you have to hide that you just never get around to sending the udder photos of the dam. Really rotten behavior if you ask me.


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