# Urinary Calculi Prevention



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

The weather has heated up fast. Those of us who have wethers and bucks are always concerned about Urinary Calculi prevention. Besides giving goats a feed that is balanced in phosphorus and magnesium ratios with calcium, and containing ammonium chloride, I am wondering about the use of lemon in helping to prevent the stones from forming. 

In humans - it is a good prevention to drink the juice of a fresh squeezed lemon in preventing stones from forming. This has never been a problem in our family but we know so many that have this issue causing me to read up on prevention. Supposedly, the lemon has an alkalizing effect on the system. I would think the opposite to be true since lemons seem so acidic. But I can understand that more now as the lemons I juiced recently had a small hint of a sulfur type smell to them. 

So if this is a way to prevent stones in humans- can it also be effective in goats. I did a little research and evidently some believe it is useful in preventing stones from forming in goats. It surely can not be bad for a goat to give a few pieces of lemon peels daily. I wouldn't give too many at one time. Our wether is the main goat that absolutely loved the lemon peel. 

So has anyone else done any research on the lemon for UC prevention? I would like to know. We juice up our own lemon juice and have left over peels.


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## gonegoaty (May 15, 2015)

I have not done any research particularly on lemons, but I am so afraid of my wether getting UC. He has shown symptoms in the past, but not of a full blockage, and with some quick treatment it passed. I now give him red bell peppers as treats sometimes and supplement some vitamin C. It'll help his immune system (while he's healing a sore shoulder) and it also acidifies the urine.

Second, I add some organic apple cider vinegar to their water. He loves it and drinks more water - also great for preventing UC. The ACV, like vitamin C, acidifies the urine which helps dissolve and prevent stones from forming.

I have also been adding some ammonium chloride to his food. I'm interested to hear what others have to say about lemon. It sounds like it may have similar effects as ACV and vitamin C.


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## BOERKING (Jan 5, 2015)

I think for prevention it is 1teaspoon or tablespoon i forgot lol
Of ammonium chloride daily into the feed or water per goat but i was reading that Ammonium Chloride burns there throat is that true?


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## gonegoaty (May 15, 2015)

My vet tells me to put 1 1/2 teaspoon of ammonium chloride on his food each day. Yes, it can burn the throat - when using it in large doses to treat UC, it should be drenched. When he was showing signs of licking himself, hunching, peeing smaller amounts than normal, I was giving him that amount by mouth wrapped in peanut butter and some flat bread to get it all down him. Then I was also doing the things above to acidify his urine. With a severe blockage the dosage is a lot higher and because it is toxic should only be used in a life threatening situation before surgery.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Cranberry juice, ACV, AC, and any other juice that is acidic will help.

Personally? I only balance the calciumhos (alfalfa pellets and soaked beet pulp) in their diet and have never had a problem in 35+ years of having goats.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Actually its 1 1/2 tablespoons per day for 7 days for treatment. The 1 1/2 tablespoon everyday is way to much for prevention. I always suggest to do it in both their mineral mix (3 lbs of AC per 50 lbs. of mix) and do a single day treatment of 1 1/2 tablespoons once every 1, 2 or 4 weeks based on the amount of mineral mix they are ingesting or what they are eating. If they are eating a less balanced diet, then once ever week would be my suggestion.

On a side note: As previously brought up, ACV or anything else would have to be feed in extreme amounts for it to even start to be effective. Goats digestion systems are vastly different then humans.


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## BOERKING (Jan 5, 2015)

ok im confused for prevention how much per buck?

and should i do the same for my does?


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Joshua, do you have a feed that contains the ammonium chloride? If so and you are giving the feed in a good amount, you probably don't need to supplement extra.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I think it helps to make sure they are drinking their water with this onset of sudden heat wave. They may not like drinking warm stinky water and the lack of water is a real contributor in the hot weather to urinary calculi. It is always best to give goats a balanced browse diet but most of us don't have that type of property. If we had lots of blackberries and other shrub browse, I doubt we would be having to supplement their diet much at all. I have never kept a wether as a pet so having one is a new thing for me to be thinking about since I know a few people that have lost their goats due to urinary calculi. I've been tossing all sorts of willow branches and honeysuckle branch trimmings out to the goats. Because we have lots of access to lemons, we have been giving him some peels in small amounts every day. I don't know if it helps, but it surely can't be too bad for him. He has such shiny hair. I spoil the goats. they get all sorts of goodies.


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## BOERKING (Jan 5, 2015)

no i cant find any feed down here that contains it

do i need to give the does AC or can the just pee it out?


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## gonegoaty (May 15, 2015)

BOERKING said:


> ok im confused for prevention how much per buck?
> 
> and should i do the same for my does?


My wether is 60 lbs and my vet recommends I continue to give him 1 1/2 tsp per day in his feed as a preventative. (I use a vet knowledgeable in goats.)

The dose for saving the life of a goat with UC may be much higher. When I was researching UC because my goat was having issues, there were recommendations of that dose 2x a day drenched but it can build up in their system and toxicity is a risk. I never increased it beyond 1 1/2 teaspoons because I was able to get the issue resolved with the combination of things I was doing, and I will continue it to prevent a future blockage. Although I plan to add the ammonium chloride to his minerals now. It's true the rumen absorbs things in a more complex way that requires higher doses than other animals (or people) but there is no harm in adding things to the diet to tip the scale on acidifying the urine in hopes to prevent the formation of stones.

Of course the best plan of all is to keep the calcium to phosphorus ratio in check however I'm finding that to be really hard when he's grazing on the land and I can never figure out exactly the ratios on everything I'm feeding him. Bags of goat pellets are nicely labeled, but that only makes up a small portion of his overall diet.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Hmm.. A lot of goat feed has it in it. If you don't have it in the feed, then yes, you may consider getting some to put in the feed. You can order it on Jeffers on line. It should be about $8 bucks for a small container. I've never added extra. I've used 'Goat Balancer' by manna pro and it has a lot of extra supplements in it that can be given with regular food. I like it and it contains the AC. Tractor supply no longer carries Goat Balancer.


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## BOERKING (Jan 5, 2015)

but i was reading not to worry about it on does
is it true? i give my does every couple days grain and calf manna


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

It tells you right on the lable the doses. 1 1/2 for 7 days to treat a goat that you suspect has or has had a recent blockage from UC. I appreciate that you have a good goat vet but you might wanna run the dose by him again as that much AC can not be good for an animal. And or OR do some research for yourself on doses. Female goats DO NOT need Ammonium Chloride at all.


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## gonegoaty (May 15, 2015)

TDG-Farms said:


> It tells you right on the lable the doses. 1 1/2 for 7 days to treat a goat that you suspect has or has had a recent blockage from UC. I appreciate that you have a good goat vet but you might wanna run the dose by him again as that much AC can not be good for an animal. And or OR do some research for yourself on doses. Female goats DO NOT need Ammonium Chloride at all.


You're correct, the label does give the dose, however in a life threatening emergency with UC, a much higher dose may be recommended, as I stated above.

I appreciate your concern for my goats and everyone else's but I've done a HUGE amount of research over the past days, weeks, and months. It's what I do - I read anything and everything I can get my hands on for topics that interest me, everything available online and purchasing books, including Diet for Wethers by Carolyn Eddy. (great book for anyone else with wethers by the way.)

You're welcome to do some research for yourself, but here's one particular example I pulled up for you that recommends 1.56 pounds of ammonium chloride per gallon of water for a goat the size of mine in a life threatening UC situation. I'll let you do the math on that potency, but it's a lot more than 1.5 tsp a day. As I stated in one of my other posts, ammonium toxicity is a risk, and that's why a high dose like this would only be recommended when a goat is at risk of dying. As you probably know, the odds of survival aren't good when a goat has blockage. The link does also warn of the potential toxicity, but higher doses are used for emergency cases. That was the point I was making, but I agree with you on the potential risks.
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/stones.htm

As for the label dosages, that is a safe level to use as a preventative, and I have verified that with my vet. That's probably why the manufacturer gives that dosage amount, to protect themselves from cases of overdosing.

However, everything I am doing and my vet's instruction is for my wether who was fixed very young and has already had urinary troubles. It's clear he is prone to developing UC. I can't speak for anyone else's goats, and each person has to make their own informed decisions. I'm just sharing my personal experience since it may help someone else.


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## gonegoaty (May 15, 2015)

BOERKING said:


> but i was reading not to worry about it on does
> is it true? i give my does every couple days grain and calf manna


Does have a much shorter urinary tract and it's highly unusual for them to have any problem. Typically wethers have the urinary calculi issues if they are fixed at a young age, because the urethra growth is stunted.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Completely disagree your stance on AC and its doses, but that whats makes goat husbandry so great. We each get to do what we feel is best for our goats. Oh and as for reseach. I sell pack goat prospects. Wethers that will be used for a decade or more with a huge time and money investment into them. Research. Ya I have done more then enough of my fare share of research.

http://trinitypackgoats.webs.com/howtopackgoatcare.htm


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## grindylo (May 15, 2014)

Since we're on the subject and I didn't want to make a new post...
I was looking up minerals and supplements today and saw something somewhere (didn't save it) that advertised containing an ingredient other than ammonium chloride for preventing UC. It briefly mentioned a risk of ammonium toxicity building up with the usual supplement. Do you know what ingredient this supplier was talking about?


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## Beckngoats (May 16, 2015)

What is the ratio for Apple cider vinegar to water?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ill say IMO just to easy the replies, but there is no way a goat could drink enough ACV mixed in water to do anything. It just wouldnt make it to the bladder with any kind of effect. Maybe if you gave it to them straight. I dont know about that.


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## grindylo (May 15, 2014)

Found the product again finally: Goatzilla Nutritional Supplement.
The company's description is pretty vague but full of praise. Reviews at Jeffers seem all for it. Found the ingredients posted here. Looks like the magic ingredient is hydrochloric acid. Do you know anything about using that instead of ammonium chloride?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ya that stuff doesnt sound right. I mean, how would adding more of the same acid the stomach makes, do any good? Not to mention, the body neutralizes it once it leaves the stomach. I get that its used to balance pH and it can desolve calcium carbonate but the science just doesnt add up. I dont know. And here is another thing to think about. If hydrochloric acid desolves calcium carbonate, how are both of these in the analysis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

The instruction sheet sent with the AmChl I order from Hoegger's says 1/2 TEASPOON per day for prevention, 1 and a half TEASPOONS in drench x 7 days for treatment. I've never had to use it the full week. I've caught my wethers a couple of times just beginning to show signs but still able to pee a bit. Usually after one dose they're peeing like racehorses and I'll follow up with one more and then watch them. ACV in the water helps with the Ph. Our water is very hard.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Now thats something I hadnt thought of. AVC in the water to treat the water... I can accept that


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