# posty legged?



## Nibaga

im starting to learn about goats conformation but not quite there yet. I've been searching lots of infos online but still needs guidance. This is a female doe, a 6 months old, about 350 USD. my question is, isn't she a lil bit posty legged?
thanks


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## spidy1

I would say so, but Im not that great with confirmation


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## Nibaga

spidy1 said:


> I would say so, but Im not that great with confirmation


Thanks. And how do u judge her rear pastern?


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## toth boer goats

She is super thin, I would get a fecal for worms and cocci.

What are you feeding her?

Yes, she is posty looking in 1 pic, but she is standing strange.
Weak pasterns rear
topline really awkward, not straight.
A lot of tailhead drop

She looks as if she is not feeling the best.

Do they get lose salt and minerals?


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## goathiker

I'm not sure it's fair to judge middle eastern goats by American standards. They grow so much taller and leaner with very different confirmation. 
I do think her pasterns are a bit weak.


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## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> She is super thin, I would get a fecal for worms and cocci.
> 
> What are you feeding her?
> 
> Yes, she is posty looking in 1 pic, but she is standing strange.
> Weak pasterns rear
> topline really awkward, not straight.
> A lot of tailhead drop
> 
> She looks as if she is not feeling the best.
> 
> Do they get lose salt and minerals?


Shes not my goat, shes is for sale for 350. It is the famacha method or monthly deworn is the most common used here. For fecal or cocci. For lose salt yes they do get.


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## Nibaga

goathiker said:


> I'm not sure it's fair to judge middle eastern goats by American standards. They grow so much taller and leaner with very different confirmation.
> I do think her pasterns are a bit weak.


Thanks again goathiker  trying to atleast get the very best i could get here. Hope we can get some goats from the usa but it costs a leg to import hehe


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## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> She is super thin, I would get a fecal for worms and cocci.
> 
> What are you feeding her?
> 
> Yes, she is posty looking in 1 pic, but she is standing strange.
> Weak pasterns rear
> topline really awkward, not straight.
> A lot of tailhead drop
> 
> She looks as if she is not feeling the best.
> 
> Do they get lose salt and minerals?


This another pic of her


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## goathiker

She is very posty is that picture! 
Two more things~ If you are wanting to breed out the roached back you want to start with long backs, hers is very short. 
I don't like the way her teeth are either. I'm afraid that by the time she is grown she have a lot of over bite with the teeth not meeting the upper pad. This makes it hard for them to keep condition and make milk.


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## Nibaga

Thanks for the advice goathiker, can u post a long back if u have a pic to share? 
Will try to find another doe.


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## spidy1

heres a pic with a longer back... my Boer buck


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## Nibaga

Thanks. Nice buck


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## goathiker

Here's my LaMancha 
I have to go to town today but I will come back the your other does. They look really nice at first glance.


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## Nibaga

goathiker said:


> Here's my LaMancha
> I have to go to town today but I will come back the your other does. They look really nice at first glance.
> View attachment 137341
> View attachment 137343


Nice goats. Hope to see more like these in town. I have another doe that i bought few months ago.. thx for taking time replying on my post.. really appreciate it


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## toth boer goats

Nibaga said:


> This another pic of her


 Definitely something off about that first doe, not sure if is parasites or a tummy ache, pain somewhere, her stance seems odd. 
Do not buy her.

Worming monthly is not wise, it builds a resistance to the wormer. Creating a power worm. So it does not kill the worms. 
Famancha is a good way to keep up on it, but do not worm that often. only as needed. If you do not do fecals.

Cocci is a very bad thing for them to get, stress can trigger it.
If left untreated, it causes internal gut damage so they cannot absorb nutrients, making them remain thin and unthrifty. Cocci doesn't always show scouring signs.

The other Does you bought look good, a bit of a tailhead drop, but, other than that, they don't look bad. 
Though a little thin, but not super bad.


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## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> Definitely something off about that first doe, not sure if is parasites or a tummy ache, pain somewhere, her stance seems odd.
> Do not buy her.
> 
> Worming monthly is not wise, it builds a resistance to the wormer. Creating a power worm. So it does not kill the worms.
> Famancha is a good way to keep up on it, but do not worm that often. only as needed. If you do not do fecals.
> 
> Cocci is a very bad thing for them to get, stress can trigger it.
> If left untreated, it causes internal gut damage so they cannot absorb nutrients, making them remain thin and unthrifty. Cocci doesn't always show scouring signs.
> 
> The other Does you bought look good, a bit of a tailhead drop, but, other than that, they don't look bad.
> Though a little thin, but not super bad.


thanks guys for giving me all your inputs, it really helped me alot choosing at least best that is available that will put me on track to breed nubians,
i asked the seller if he could send me videos just in case she'll look different on videos but it doesn't so heres a video of her, uploaded in youtube


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## mariarose

@Nibaga A roached back is when the spine curves up and then down, like the back of a roach (or the top of a hill)

When you see that, you know that the goat does not feel well. It is not always conformation defect, just a sign of being uncomfortable, or ill.

I'll try to find a picture and add it to this comment. OK, I found an example. The first cow is roached because of bad hooves (shown beside her)

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0739724006001706-gr1.jpg


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## Nibaga

hi maria rose, how r u?
thanks for that info maria, i thought it was always a conformation defect as weak pastern. Then it is possible that it's her hooves that causing her to roach back?
Indeed there's a lot to learn,


her shoulder is a lil bit weird too,


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## mariarose

We aren't used to the "normal" of where you live. And you don't yet know enough of good conformation to sort it out for yourself, so it's a bit of a jumble, I admit.

Conformation is important, because most of it is directly tied to functionality, and a little bit is "because that is what we like to see" But only a little bit.

@goathiker did me a tremendous good deed once, when she asked me, "How will she improve your herd?"

How do you want a doe (any doe) to improve your herd? What areas must she be strong in?


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## mariarose

In the thumbnails is one of my girls, Carol, who is normally straight and gorgeous. She was freezing and unhappy in this photo. Look at her roached back, and how awkwardly she is holding herself, and the odd positioning of her legs.

The doe in the picture just below is not her (the same doe as in the thumbnails) But she looks incredibly like her when Carol's all put together. I just wanted to give you an idea of the changes.


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## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> so what about the one i posted?


I thought she had an intelligent, alert expression, but other than that I did not care much for her, but as goathiker said, different areas have different types that are normal, so I should not judge her too harshly.

As for the others, Is it very common for the rumps to be so much higher than the withers where you are?

I remember you and I talking about minerals and how difficult it is to get them. Did you ever find any cattle minerals?

Whatever you decide, remember that how they look is because of how they are kept. Choose good looking healthy goats that have been raised in close to the same conditions that you will keep them. Otherwise, they won't keep their good looks under your conditions.

That last is just a general rule, not always right, but often enough right.


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## Goat_Scout

Of the four doelings you just posted, I like the last two the best, judging by US standards. They have better top lines, and their rumps don't appear to be as high/steep as the other two. Other than that though, I cannot tell much from just one picture.

That buck is very nice!


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I thought she had an intelligent, alert expression, but other than that I did not care much for her, but as goathiker said, different areas have different types that are normal, so I should not judge her too harshly.
> 
> As for the others, Is it very common for the rumps to be so much higher than the withers where you are?
> 
> I remember you and I talking about minerals and how difficult it is to get them. Did you ever find any cattle minerals?
> 
> Whatever you decide, remember that how they look is because of how they are kept. Choose good looking healthy goats that have been raised in close to the same conditions that you will keep them. Otherwise, they won't keep their good looks under your conditions.
> 
> That last is just a general rule, not always right, but often enough right.


i couldn't find other than the loose minerals from the U.S, 
the one i used now is copper block and mineral block and himalayan salt block which is readily available in the market,
in your books, does it still ok to breed a posty legged? or just cull them? just in case i run them in the future.


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## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> Of the four doelings you just posted, I like the last two the best, judging by US standards. They have better top lines, and their rumps don't appear to be as high/steep as the other two. Other than that though, I cannot tell much from just one picture.
> 
> That buck is very nice!


ok will try to save them for reference. or will try to post again here if ever i'll decide to buy again.

yeah he's pretty big and his sire is SGCH


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## Nibaga

any thought on the black nubian? although her tailhead drops, but her topline is much better than the posty legged. but this one doesn't have roman nose


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## Old Post Farm

the black doe definatly has some improvement in her hind legs, her topline could use some straightening out, but sometimes they mature very nicely 















i swear that is the same goat. she was about 7 months old in the first picture a year and 1/2 in the second
if the black doe is the one you are considering, I'd say go for it


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## Nibaga

wo0w, indeed she improved that much, she looks nice in there, if not for the posty legged i would have gone for it, since she has that roman nose i like.
u did well raising her.

yes i think she's a bit sickled hocks


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## Audrey LeRoux

To the original set of pictures, there is not one thing I like about that doe! I would absolutely not spend $350 on her! In the set of (5) pictures, the last two are better than the others, however I still don't like how steep their rumps are.


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## Nibaga

thanks for the feedback on them audrey, i honestly believe that small breeders in my country don't care much about conformation, so long it is purebreed nubian, which in my case have been trying to improved to the best i can without importing from the usa, even i want to, i dont have the means to do it yet. hopefully i can improve them by acquiring good buck.


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## Old Post Farm

thank you!


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## toth boer goats

I agree with the others.

Posty legs are not good.
Too much tailhead drop can make birthing difficult.
Conformation is important for longevity.

The black doe I wouldn't use unless it is corrected with the buck being used.
A roman nose , straight topline, little to no tailhead drop. No posty legs, strong on pasterns.

Anytime you use a buck, look at his flaws, compare his to hers. Remember, if he has the same flaws, it will not correct the issue at hand. You want a buck who can correct the issues as well as the doe. 
If you see a tail drop runaway, LOL. 
Try to seek a buck who will correct those flaws. The best you can do, for what you have available. 

On the pics of the expensive imported goats. Out of them all, J70 would help improve many faults. 
May be worth investment. 
But first, get more pics of her front, side, back end, plus video. 
If you do get her and breed her, get to a buck who has better traits and you will improve dramatically. 
That is if I see her correctly from that 1 pic.


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## toth boer goats

No problem.

Wish his tailhead wasn't as deep.
But yet, he is young and growing.
Other than that, he isn't too bad.


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## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> No problem.
> 
> Wish his tailhead wasn't as deep.
> But yet, he is young and growing.
> Other than that, he isn't too bad.


Thanks toth boer.. i found a buck but was recently sold. And if this pass your nubian standard then next time i will know what to look for my next buck thanks again..


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## Audrey LeRoux

Nibaga said:


> thanks for the feedback on them audrey, i honestly believe that small breeders in my country don't care much about conformation, so long it is purebreed nubian, which in my case have been trying to improved to the best i can without importing from the usa, even i want to, i dont have the means to do it yet. hopefully i can improve them by acquiring good buck.


It is a problem everywhere. There are breeders out there who pass off horrible goats onto others and just because they come with papers, the goat is supposed to be up to breed standard. It's really frustrating and unfortunate especially for people who are trying to get into goats as responsible breeders. I think it says something about a breeder when they WONT sell you an animal. The worst animal I have in my herd has probably the strongest genetic backing, and she is probably the ugliest, most incorrect animal out of everyone. Paid top dollar, sight unseen, because you know, she has the pedigree so of course she's perfect, and I completely regret it. She will sadly go to the livestock auction next year. But lesson learned. 
Find a good breeder, with a good reputation and someone who is willing to work with you to put quality into your herd.


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## Nibaga

yap, strongly agree with you audrey, this particular buck is dubbed as ""one buck does it all" adga registered from pennyroyals. you have to line up for it to buy a doe, no available does til 2020.

yeah hopefully someday i can find a good breeder not only after money. but for upgrading my herd into quantity to quality.


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## mariarose

@Nibaga What are your goals for your herd?


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## toth boer goats

Nibaga said:


> Thanks toth boer.. i found a buck but was recently sold. And if this pass your nubian standard then next time i will know what to look for my next buck thanks again..


 I like this guy better than the others posted. 

The one who has a waiting list has that taildrop going on and I really think that younger dude is a lot better there.


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## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> I like this guy better than the others posted.
> 
> The one who has a waiting list has that taildrop going on and I really think that younger dude is a lot better there.


i will not buy another buckl if he doesn't comes close to that buck in terms of body structure. 
thanks


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> @Nibaga What are your goals for your herd?


my goal for now is simply to correct the faults in my herd by selective breeding. That's is my primary reason why i joined here to seek help/advice from u guys, and pass US standard Nubian. Like other said by having a good correct structure, means a longer life for my herd, = less expenses, although it is a lil bit far fetch as for now but in due time. I'm not really aiming for show type nubians, why i choose nubians is because they adopt easily in our tropical climate. My long term goal is to venture into agribusiness e.g "goats milk" etc

attachment below is my native goat,
i don't know if thats how a topline should look like, though her tailhead drops.
she is preggy


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## Ranger1

I like your black, native doe a lot more than I like any of the Nubians posted. I wouldn’t want anymore slope in her rump(tailhead) but don’t mind that rump a ton either. I have found no correlation to rump angle and kidding problems, and don’t buy into the thought that flat rumps ease kidding. If such were the case, why would a doe’s rump become so much more steep when in labor? 
What I have noticed with steep rumps are the udder under them-often they aren’t as high or have as tight of attachments as does with flatter rumps. 
Width of rump definitely matters, and maybe length, but angle doesn’t seem to, in my experience. 
You do want nice toplines though! That’s where all the strength in the back is!


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## mariarose

@Ranger1 is spot on...

Because, I like the one you own better, too. Conformationwise, I mean, since I don't know what her production is.

But if she is a true sample of the other girls in your herd, and if owning registered stock is not important to your herd goals, then I'm about to commit heresy...

Forget about buying any more does. Concentrate all your money and all your focus on buying the best buck you can.

He needs to be someone who can improve where you want improvement. And you don't want to lose any of the good aspects of your does, like, being native they are going to be more tolerant of your island pressures than a fragile outsider If you import a buck, be certain he is parasite tolerant and keeps in good condition with the types of feed you can supply.

A solid buck is the very best, fastest, and cheapest way to bring up your entire herd.

You may gasp at the price of a single animal, but it is only a single animal you have to buy, so think of that savings.

If he is registered, you might be able to register his daughters, and upgrade the registration of each succeeding generation. Someone more familiar with ADGA rules could help with that. But when I was a member of ADGA, raising Nubians a few decades ago, that was a path to a quality herd.

You'd have to replace that buck every couple of years, but I doubt you'd lose money on him if he's true quality.


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## mariarose

I meant to say, @Nibaga I'm leaving soon for the hospital and I'll be gone today, but I'll try hard to check back with this thread tonight to find out if I've been confusing and unclear (I probably have been) and you don't know what I'm saying.


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## toth boer goats

Hope everything is OK mariarose

The black Doe is really nice and a good example. A little more length would be nice, but may be the picture angle.

You don't want too steep of a rump. Kidding issues can happen as some have encountered. You cannot rule it out.

A good example of good to steep rump link. I know this is a show Doe, but it gives you prospective of a good topline and rump.
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/toplines-and-steep-rumps.121480/


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I meant to say, @Nibaga I'm leaving soon for the hospital and I'll be gone today, but I'll try hard to check back with this thread tonight to find out if I've been confusing and unclear (I probably have been) and you don't know what I'm saying.


no not really, take care what u need to do, i hope everything is going well with u,
..................
and yea the buckling i bought will be registered soon by the breeder.
thanks for all the tips.
the only problem with native goats here is, they sell so cheap around 60-75usd
cause i was planning before to sell all my natives, but will keep the ones that has good toplines, though they tailhead drops...
Native Doe milk production is only good enough for their kids 1L.


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## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> Hope everything is OK mariarose
> 
> The black Doe is really nice and a good example. A little more length would be nice, but may be the picture angle.
> 
> You don't want too steep of a rump. Kidding issues can happen as some have encountered. You cannot rule it out.
> 
> A good example of good to steep rump link. I know this is a show Doe, but it gives you prospective of a good topline and rump.
> https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/toplines-and-steep-rumps.121480/


thanks for this, it will probably takes me years, or decades to achieve this conformation hheeh

for the rump is hard to find that here, hopefully someday

our natives goat here are mostly small, that is why most of goat breeder here crosses them with anglo or boer


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## Nibaga

Ranger1 said:


> I like your black, native doe a lot more than I like any of the Nubians posted. I wouldn't want anymore slope in her rump(tailhead) but don't mind that rump a ton either. I have found no correlation to rump angle and kidding problems, and don't buy into the thought that flat rumps ease kidding. If such were the case, why would a doe's rump become so much more steep when in labor?
> What I have noticed with steep rumps are the udder under them-often they aren't as high or have as tight of attachments as does with flatter rumps.
> Width of rump definitely matters, and maybe length, but angle doesn't seem to, in my experience.
> You do want nice toplines though! That's where all the strength in the back is!


thanks @Ranger1 will surely make that a priority looking for my next purchased.
with the rump, 0 angle is hard to come by.


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## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> Native Doe milk production is only good enough for their kids 1L.


Yes, I do understand that problem.

But their DAUGHTERS, when bred to a high producing buck, will give more. And their GRANDDAUGHTERS will give even more. Replacing the natives, not with inferior does, but with their own improved offspring. And so on and so forth.

Because it is easier to breed in better production, than it is to breed in hardiness and conformation. That was all I was trying to say. You know best what you need and want, though. Truly you do.

Everything is fine, Nibaga and @toth boer goats, thank you for your concern. My husband had appointments at the VA hospital and that is 3 hours away, and 3 hours back, and all the time at the appointments, so it's a full day for us when this happens. He had open heart surgery a year and a half ago, and surgery for cancer this past Spring. This was testing and followups. Nothing traumatic, Just a really long day.


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## toth boer goats

Nibaga, you are very welcome. 

I agree with mariarose, if you can find a buck who has less drop, than your does, that would help dramatically. 
As you get their offspring, keep the best of the best, sell the rest of the kids who are not and then find another buck, when the keepers doelings are ready to breed, who has even less drop than they do and so on, if possible.
If you plan on buying a doe or buck, look for the same things and better quality than you initially have to improve your herd.


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## toth boer goats

mariarose said:


> Everything is fine, Nibaga and @toth boer goats, thank you for your concern. My husband had appointments at the VA hospital and that is 3 hours away, and 3 hours back, and all the time at the appointments, so it's a full day for us when this happens. He had open heart surgery a year and a half ago, and surgery for cancer this past Spring. This was testing and followups. Nothing traumatic, Just a really long day.


I am sorry you have had bad times in the past. It is a shame you both have to travel so far for a doctor. 

Being a military man, I commend him and thank him for his service. 
"Salute Sir"~!:usa2::usa:


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Yes, I do understand that problem.
> 
> But their DAUGHTERS, when bred to a high producing buck, will give more. And their GRANDDAUGHTERS will give even more. Replacing the natives, not with inferior does, but with their own improved offspring. And so on and so forth.
> 
> Because it is easier to breed in better production, than it is to breed in hardiness and conformation. That was all I was trying to say. You know best what you need and want, though. Truly you do.
> 
> Everything is fine, Nibaga and @toth boer goats, thank you for your concern. My husband had appointments at the VA hospital and that is 3 hours away, and 3 hours back, and all the time at the appointments, so it's a full day for us when this happens. He had open heart surgery a year and a half ago, and surgery for cancer this past Spring. This was testing and followups. Nothing traumatic, Just a really long day.


---------------------
that's good to hear, i wish him well.

yes, thats mostly i would do with my current natives does, and do you recommend backcross? 
Currently reading Linear appraisal booklet to add more to my knowledge.


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## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> Nibaga, you are very welcome.
> 
> I agree with mariarose, if you can find a buck who has less drop, than your does, that would help dramatically.
> As you get their offspring, keep the best of the best, sell the rest of the kids who are not and then find another buck, when the keepers doelings are ready to breed, who has even less drop than they do and so on, if possible.
> If you plan on buying a doe or buck, look for the same things and better quality than you initially have to improve your herd.


---
can't thank enough, you guys helped me alot  
like i said i will keep everything in mind for my next buck purchase. 
I'll be posting them here as well too


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## toth boer goats

You are very welcome, glad to help. 

Remember, your buck makes your herd and a good investment, even when we are forced to pay a bit more or travel a little bit farther to do so.


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## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> You are very welcome, glad to help.
> 
> Remember, your buck makes your herd and a good investment, even when we are forced to pay a bit more or travel a little bit farther to do so.


yeah, my plan as well is to register in adga, and will try to acquire Pb Doe, most likely my last purchased, and will be buying a buck by year 2021, since i already bought a buckling, will make use of him once he matures,

can you guys explain why a sickled hock scored much higher than the one on the middle? cause i always thought that the middle one was the ideal stance conformation :-s


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## mariarose

I will not willingly breed father to daughter, and I try to not breed grandfather to granddaughter, but if the goats are good ones, I will breed greatgrandfather to greatgranddaughter. Other people, with other goals, follow different practices.

The middle picture is the best one, always on that particular chart.


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## Nibaga

yea pretty strage they scored it pretty high @ 45 and the middle is 25.

yeah cause i've seen local breeders they do it, 25% inbreed, father to daughter


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## mariarose

The points can be too high, and also too low. The middle one is just right.

I won't say that a father daughter pairing has never happened in my herd, but it was never on purpose.

I think it is too close, especially if it is habitual.


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## toth boer goats

I agree with mariarose on all parts.

Though, inbreeding father to daughter is why the faults are stronger when you have faults from both. It intensifies. Not a good practice.


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## Nibaga

yeah i think i will just get a second buck just in case.

saw 1 for sale but he's super thin but conformation wise, i think he's good
and has long rump, topline is good as well. goat is so expensive lols he is sold for 400 usd


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## toth boer goats

Wow, he is super thin.
May be wormy or cocci.
Might not be getting enough minerals.

Check his inner lower eyelid coloring.

I would make sure he is healthy, maybe a vet check if possible, if you are to get him.

Other than that, you are right, he has a good topline and no tailhead drop.

How old is he?

What breed?
Registered?


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## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> Wow, he is super thin.
> May be wormy or cocci.
> Might not be getting enough minerals.
> 
> Check his inner lower eyelid coloring.
> 
> I would make sure he is healthy, maybe a vet check if possible, if you are to get him.
> 
> Other than that, you are right, he has a good topline and no tailhead drop.
> 
> How old is he?
> 
> What breed?
> Registered?


Hes posted as purebreed nubian. I have not nessage the seller yet. If i could bargain it for 200 probably i might consider buying. Or atleast proven that he is a purebreed.. since i am waiting for u guys to comment on his condition and conformation

Yeah i strongly blieve that he isnot getting proper nutrition/diet.
Probably u r right bout worm loads.
For cocci i dont really know if we have that avail. He caught my attension cause i havent seen much conformation like these from.local breeders other than the 1 i posted bfore u liked. He is around 1 yr already, he is not long and big is the problem.

Hes gonna be a hard to sell for 400
I doubt that he is registered.. usually a registered nubian here is around 750 to 1000

A rough coat should tell that he is mineral deficiency right? And for coppper deficiency has to be like a fishtail?


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## toth boer goats

I hear you on wanting more size to him and weight.
He may never be big, however, that doesn't mean he cannot produce really nice kids for you, his conformation is much better than what you have shown prior. Just no length in this buck and his head isn't ideal.

$200 IMO would be a better price for him, if he is indeed purebred nubian. 
$400 is quite high with him being so stunted with possible worm/cocci issues now or in his past. 
He should be bigger for 1 year, yes.

Copper deficiency can indicate rough hair, fishtail, off color coat. 
I believe he is lacking minerals and healthy feed, he should be getting.
Although, if he had cocci and left untreated for too long, can permanently stunt growth, as well as worms. 
If you do not have cocci that is a plus.
He may or may not grow a bit more under the right care and feed program, but that is running out, as he is 1 year old already. I know boers can grow up to 4 years. Not sure on Nubians.


----------



## Goat_Scout

I think he looks way better (conformationally speaking) than some of the other bucks pictured before. Nice top line and rump, and he seems to have decent width, although it's hard to tell with him being so thin, and from the angle of the pictures.

I think with good feed and minerals he could grow into a very nice buck. He will probably always be a little small for his age though, he looks pretty stunted, probably from not getting proper nutrition. Do you have pictures of his parents?


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## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> I think he looks way better (conformationally speaking) than some of the other bucks pictured before. Nice top line and rump, and he seems to have decent width, although it's hard to tell with him being so thin, and from the angle of the pictures.
> 
> I think with good feed and minerals he could grow into a very nice buck. He will probably always be a little small for his age though, he looks pretty stunted, probably from not getting proper nutrition. Do you have pictures of his parents?


i sent a message asking for his dam and sire while ago, 
as toth boer said, he doesnt have a good head, specially for purebreed nubian, but it is much easier to upgrade roman nose, than long rump and good topline.
if it weren't for his conformation i wouldn't bother.
will try to ask recent pictures if theres any.


----------



## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> I hear you on wanting more size to him and weight.
> He may never be big, however, that doesn't mean he cannot produce really nice kids for you, his conformation is much better than what you have shown prior. Just no length in this buck and his head isn't ideal.
> 
> $200 IMO would be a better price for him, if he is indeed purebred nubian.
> $400 is quite high with him being so stunted with possible worm/cocci issues now or in his past.
> He should be bigger for 1 year, yes.
> 
> Copper deficiency can indicate rough hair, fishtail, off color coat.
> I believe he is lacking minerals and healthy feed, he should be getting.
> Although, if he had cocci and left untreated for too long, can permanently stunt growth, as well as worms.
> If you do not have cocci that is a plus.
> He may or may not grow a bit more under the right care and feed program, but that is running out, as he is 1 year old already. I know boers can grow up to 4 years. Not sure on Nubians.


the only good thing about him is there's no sign of diarrhea in the picture posted @ his age he is most likely not to grow, lol. the seller posted that he weigh around 35-40kg


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## mariarose

Sorry Nibaga, I'm back in the city where the hospital is, my husband is having a procedure tomorrow morning, and I haven't paid attn. to this site.

Your buckling (the one that will be registered) needs copper, selenium, zinc, and vitamin D.

The buck looks nice (I love the wide stance), and does not show the same level of mineral deficiency that the much younger buckling does. This indicates one of 2 things.

Either the owner has better access to minerals than the first owner does, OR the buck does not demand the same level of supplementation that the buckling does. This is something that you may want to think about with your lack of ability to get good minerals. 

When I had Nubians, they grew for about 4 years. But more time to grow won't overcome the lack of minerals.

Breaking up the hard mineral blocks you have access to will increase their effectiveness by about a million (exaggeration there) so consider doing that. What happened with the seaweed idea we talked about? 

How much would it cost you to get a buck from the States? I'm only speaking of the import cost, not the cost of a buck.

I'm wondering if you hold off on any other purchases for about 2 years, and keep the money from your sales saved back (your original native does, and all their improved kids that you don't want to keep) and all the money from the purchases these 2 years you DON'T make, you could afford a superior buck to breed to your improved offspring that you keep?

I'm assuming you are locked into your purchase of the buckling. So if you DON'T purchase this second buck, and you DON'T purchase a PB doe, that is $800 to have just in this year to put toward another buck in 2 years.

Breed your buckling to your best does for the next 2 years, and keep the best daughters, then sell him, and your original does, and all their sons and not so great daughters, add that to the $800 you did not spend on purchases right now. You'd have a LOT of money for your next buck.

I'm super distracted, and I may not be putting this idea how I need to. But I mean well.


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Sorry Nibaga, I'm back in the city where the hospital is, my husband is having a procedure tomorrow morning, and I haven't paid attn. to this site.
> 
> Your buckling (the one that will be registered) needs copper, selenium, zinc, and vitamin D.
> 
> The buck looks nice (I love the wide stance), and does not show the same level of mineral deficiency that the much younger buckling does. This indicates one of 2 things.
> 
> Either the owner has better access to minerals than the first owner does, OR the buck does not demand the same level of supplementation that the buckling does. This is something that you may want to think about with your lack of ability to get good minerals.
> 
> When I had Nubians, they grew for about 4 years. But more time to grow won't overcome the lack of minerals.
> 
> Breaking up the hard mineral blocks you have access to will increase their effectiveness by about a million (exaggeration there) so consider doing that. What happened with the seaweed idea we talked about?
> 
> How much would it cost you to get a buck from the States? I'm only speaking of the import cost, not the cost of a buck.
> 
> I'm wondering if you hold off on any other purchases for about 2 years, and keep the money from your sales saved back (your original native does, and all their improved kids that you don't want to keep) and all the money from the purchases these 2 years you DON'T make, you could afford a superior buck to breed to your improved offspring that you keep?
> 
> I'm assuming you are locked into your purchase of the buckling. So if you DON'T purchase this second buck, and you DON'T purchase a PB doe, that is $800 to have just in this year to put toward another buck in 2 years.
> 
> Breed your buckling to your best does for the next 2 years, and keep the best daughters, then sell him, and your original does, and all their sons and not so great daughters, add that to the $800 you did not spend on purchases right now. You'd have a LOT of money for your next buck.
> 
> I'm super distracted, and I may not be putting this idea how I need to. But I mean well.


thanks for putting your time replying despite your schedule, appreciate alot maria,

sounds a good idea though it will be a long process, what i have heard for the total cost is 8-10k
the buckling i got for around 700 has SGCH in his blood,
what the breeder told is he gives copper and selenium capsule to every weanlings,
for the seaweeds thing i have collected some before, but sometimes there's none, so i buy mineral blocks,... so would u advice crashing my mineral blocks?
----------------
yeah hopefully someday i could find one, atleast a good 1 from here, if not will try to import if i have enough,
thanks its a great advice, maria


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## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> thanks for putting your time replying despite your schedule, appreciate alot maria,


You are welcome. I love talking about breeding plans and goals. Your thread is actually a great distraction for me right now.



Nibaga said:


> so i buy mineral blocks,... so would u advice crashing my mineral blocks?


We supply what we can, and if it is blocks for you, then I'm so glad you are giving them. However, yes. I DO recommend crushing them if at all possible. Your goats will be able to absorb them so much better, because their tongues are soft. They don't rip apart blocks in the same way that horses and cattle can.

You like (and your market likes) large goats. Large goats require far more minerals than small ones. This is why your native goats are hardier and better put together than the larger, outsider, goats (look at the buck you are considering. I thought he was maybe 5-6 months, not a year) If you want larger goats, then the issues you are facing are NOT just genetics, it is also nutrition.

It is the same with all species, all around the world. Animals that develop where nutrition is not abundant, end up small and rough, but hardy as anything. Look at Shetland Ponies, which developed on the barren Shetland Islands. Small, independent, tough. Here is a link showing how the same species can turn out so differently because of where it developed. Same species, but developed so differently over the centuries because of location and conditions.










Finally, I just wanted to say thank you, for taking what I have to say with such good cheer. I always enjoy our talks.


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## Nibaga

yeah maria, i think genetics is just 1/3 of the equation, feeding management is the most important aspect in breeding.oh for the last buck, the owner said he's already been reserved. this is the sire of my buckling




------------
his other herd sire








----------------------------------------------------
he's one of the best local breeders ive seen so far. He's a good example to follow 
Same here maria, i always look forward to ur replies


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## mariarose

Uhmm... A word of advice, take it how you will. Please do not allow your buckling to "play" with you as his sire is doing with that gentleman.

Thanks for showing us.


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Uhmm... A word of advice, take it how you will. Please do not allow your buckling to "play" with you as his sire is doing with that gentleman.
> 
> Thanks for showing us.


yea thanks for the advice, imagine if he lands on your feet


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## mariarose

It's just a super bad idea all around to get pushy with his head and allow him to cross the species line with a human. Forget your feet. None of our organs evolved to take the pounding that a mature enraged buck can mete out.


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## toth boer goats

Very good advice from mariarose.

The way the guy interacts with the bucks is very dangerous.


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## Nibaga

thanks for all your concern


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## toth boer goats

I have been slam hard by a buck with horns. I wasn't paying attention, it was raining and I was trying to stall a Doe who would get slammed by the dominant Doe. I was in the barn chasing her around to get her stalled, the buck did not like that then slam me full force on my lower leg and swept me off my feet. 
Literally, I landed flat out on the ground.
Seen him close and got up quickly, but in pain. 
The impact of hitting force and when I got up, my thong strap was broke. My toes and leg hurt, as well as my whole body. It felt like I was hit by a Mac truck. Was pretty bruised the next day.
I was lucky nothing was broke.

This yearling buck buck was over 300 lbs.
He was a calm buck prior, so never think it is OK. They have a mind in rut, that can be crazy and some even when not.
Especially playing with them, as he is doing in the video, they see it as a challenge. 
Luckily they are not horned, but can still inflict damage.


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## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> I have been slam hard by a buck with horns. I wasn't paying attention, it was raining and I was trying to stall a Doe who would get slammed by the dominant Doe. I was in the barn chasing her around to get her stalled, the buck did not like that then slam me full force on my lower leg and swept me off my feet.
> Literally, I landed flat out on the ground.
> Seen him close and got up quickly, but in pain.
> The impact of hitting force and when I got up, my thong strap was broke. My toes and leg hurt, as well as my whole body. It felt like I was hit by a Mac truck. Was pretty bruised the next day.
> I was lucky nothing was broke.
> 
> This yearling buck buck was over 300 lbs.
> He was a calm buck prior, so never think it is OK. They have a mind in rut, that can be crazy and some even when not.
> Especially playing with them, as he is doing in the video, they see it as a challenge.
> Luckily they are not horned, but can still inflict damage.


-----------
I'm glad nothing serious happened to u,
specially the boers you have, they are massing.
thanks for sharing ur story, and hopefully it will not happen to me.


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## toth boer goats

I hope not either, thanks.
That is why I am warning you.


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## mariarose

bisonviewfarm said:


> I suspect his is learned behavior his breeder told my husband he taught him to fist bump with his head so I can only imagine what else he let him get away with.


Since you are dealing with the results of inappropriate handling, would you comment on the videos above, in comment #71?

The OP, who is in the P.I. and does not have all the options we do here in the States, is buying a buckling from this person. The reason is that he is serious about moving his herd forward and this person (in the video) is considered one of the top breeders in that geographical region.

I am not trying to talk him out of the purchase, just to impress upon him to follow a very different strategy of training and handling his new buckling. I regard @Nibaga as a friend, and this is a SIZEABLE investment for him. I don't want him facing the choice you are, with killing your buck because of this very reason.

Thank you, whatever you decide to do.


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## bisonviewfarm

I will 3rd the no playing with bucks like this for your own safety. I traded for a buck a few months back and his breeder chose to play with him. Bad idea Ive spent the last 2 months trying to fix him. Finally decided it wasnt going to work but not quite soon enough my daughter was in changing his water and he got her she has a nice bruised leg could have been worse if he was full grown he's only about 90lbs right now. Its awful to have to put one down and be out money simply because the animal was taught dangerous behavior.


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Since you are dealing with the results of inappropriate handling, would you comment on the videos above, in comment #71?
> 
> The OP, who is in the P.I. and does not have all the options we do here in the States, is buying a buckling from this person. The reason is that he is serious about moving his herd forward and this person (in the video) is considered one of the top breeders in that geographical region.
> 
> I am not trying to talk him out of the purchase, just to impress upon him to follow a very different strategy of training and handling his new buckling. I regard @Nibaga as a friend, and this is a SIZEABLE investment for him. I don't want him facing the choice you are, with killing your buck because of this very reason.
> 
> Thank you, whatever you decide to do.


so sweet of you maria rose , dont worry i will not try to play with my buck nor with my does


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## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> dont worry i will not try to play with my buck


I think that was the assurance that @toth boer goats @bisonviewfarm and I were looking for.

I understand being swayed by an influential breeder.


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I think that was the assurance that @toth boer goats @bisonviewfarm and I were looking for.
> 
> I understand being swayed by an influential breeder.


so yeah, and hmmm i promise not to spend on another doe but can't seem to resist, saw this post online, 30 mins away from where i live. pb doe 6 months old sold for 370 usd

front pastern looks good and top line looks good to me as well. though her tail drops, and is swollen knees sign of cae? :-s
i included her dam and sire


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## mariarose

6 months is very young to have CAE develop that far, so I'm thinking the knees are something else. What does the mother's udder look like and how much does she produce?

I wish the sire was put together a bit better. There is no chest extension, for one thing. I like to see a bit of a brisket in my goats, not have the chest and neck flow upward from the legs. But he looks very masculine anyway.

In the last picture, where the goat is facing the camera, you can see the goat is slab sided. That is something you can only see from the front, or better yet, from above. I've not mentioned it before because it is difficult to see from the side.

Ideally, you want those ribs to spring out from the spine, giving a large body cavity for her heart, lungs, liver. Note, I'm not talking about her rumen sticking out, but the ribcage itself.

In what conditions has she been raised, and can you continue those conditions, or even improve them? there is room to improve since she is only 6 months old, but not if you can't surpass her current keeping.

Gorgeous colours all around.
I hope all this helps.


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## spidy1

my first and last Nubian died from a CAE induced stroke at 1 1/2 years, she was showing signs of it by 4 months, swollen sore knees, stiff joints, then by freshening bad udder sores, congested exc, in that 3thrd pic I would say CAE STAY AWAY. just my :2c: a pic of her when she was about 1...she was the black one...


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## mariarose

Thank you for that correction, @spidy1


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## toth boer goats

I believe it is CAE, look at her Dam, she has swollen knee's as well.
Sire is hard to tell, it is so dark there to see.
I agree to what has already been said about the doeling so far, as in conformation, plus she is also lacking length.

Her sire has a really bad tail drop.

Her Dam isn't bad, but CAE looks to be a strong possibly.

I would pass.


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## Nibaga

Im pretty c0nvinced now. Ive seen other photos of her dam even when she was still under year old. Her knees is too swollen. That is why i asked the buyer if he has health certificate on cae and brucella.
The problem buying from near by towns is that they dont require health certificate when travelling. As oppose to air cargo.
I have been voicing out to local breeders from my province to be responsible selling their breeding stock atleast cae and brucella free.

That is why i prefer getting my goats being ship via cargo than buying from nearby towns.

Her dam died after 16 days of giving birth. So i suspected it was due to cae.

Thanks for your input guys, really.
I think they are thinking im becoming more and more fussy


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## toth boer goats

Glad to help.

Don't worry, I a fussy too.  :haha:


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## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> I think they are thinking im becoming more and more fussy


Tell them if they get fussy enough, people in tropical U.S. States and Territories will be clamouring for THEIR goats!

Turn that thinking around, Baby!!!!

That said, concentrate on developing the excellent qualities in your own native herds.

I do. Every year I supply fewer outside inputs, and every year I stop all of them completely, for about a month, and take note of who goes downhill immediately, and who keeps condition longest. And even though I start up the supplementation again, I keep what I learned in mind when choosing breeding pairings. I'd be doing it even more in your position.

If CAE is highly prevalent in your area, then catching the kids as they are being born and not letting the dams have them at all is an option for raising a CAE free herd. There are a lot of consequences to that plan (imo) but it IS an option. I think it would be the same for almost all common goat diseases.

Be glad to explore that idea with you further, should you want to.


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## toth boer goats

I kinda am going in the other direction, trying to convince Nibaga to not deal with a CAE goat. 
Having to be there, at that minute they are born, just doesn't always happen.
When you have to pull them away before they nurse, may be even more difficult the more goats you have. 
If you miss it, those kids will develope CAE.
I wouldn't want to have to see them in pain, as the disease progresses is crippling and the goats will not have a good life and it will be shorter. 
So that investment may very well set you back. Just my opinion and putting it out there for you, but only you can decide.


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## mariarose

@toth boer goats
Pam, I am in complete agreement with you about not buying a diseased goat. In fact, I'm trying to convince him to focus on breeding for his replacements and not buying ANY goats. For a few years anyway.

The possibility of not being there was one of many negatives to that plan I wanted to discuss with him, if he wanted to discuss it at all. Please believe me, I was going to let it all hang out, because I started with CAE goats decades ago and I was willing to tell him every thing that happened. But not if he was uninterested.

If he is determined to buy a goat, AND CAE is highly prevalent, (to me meaning you can't reasonably, affordably, avoid it) then I was offering that plan as an option, instead of simply settling for diseased goats. You can still fight against it, is what I mean.

Terribly sorry I gave the opposite impression.


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## Jessica84

I have been silently following along and I have to say you have been given some good advise. You also seem to pretty much know exactly what it is your wanting in your ideal herd. Don’t settle. Stick with it. Yes it’s a pain since you want it NOW but it usually doesn’t go that way unless you have endless funds. I can not agree with mariarose more on the buck! Every year your herd will get better and better and every year your kids will be worth more. I’m not saying don’t keep your eye out for does that you think are going to improve your herd. But again don’t settle. If you don’t want CAE in your herd don’t bring it in. What you could do since you mentioned no one tests is ask if you can test the animal before you purchase. I don’t test my goats and I have been asked if I would allow a buyer to do this. I do allow them to. I ask for a deposit to hold the animal and in writing it states that if the test does not come back negative then it’s refundable. I will also have in it that if they do not pick up the animal by a week of the deposit made they loose it. But find out how long it takes to get the results back. I give a week because we have a lab not far and they run the tests every Tuesday and Thursday. If they don’t allow you to then move on. You still have a whole herd of does that if bred to a good buck will bring you in money and get you closer to your herd your after. 
This has worked for me. Do I have my dream here yet? No but I’m getting closer and producing better kids every year.


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## spidy1

I couldn't agree more with what has bean sead, IMO stay as far away from CAE as you can, it is a miserable, crippling, and production loosing disease.


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## Nibaga

yeah i think it is the best way, having a cae free herd is no brainer,


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## Nibaga

my native black doe just gave birth


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## mariarose

Oh, they are adorable! Boys? Girls?


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## toth boer goats

Aww, adorable.


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## Nibaga

thanks guys, its twin bucklings 

i've been searching alot about molasses i've seen different opinions about it,
i was planning on adding it in their water supply, if you guys have done it how was it?
and molasses is pretty cheap in my area, compare to mineral blocks.

looking at it nutrients values, its pretty much have the necessity in terms of vitamins and minerals i administer b complex and iron.

id save money if i use molasses instead or use it alternately.


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## NigerianNewbie

Congratulations on the arrival of those gorgeous black bucklings!


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## mariarose

Nibaga, I wouldn't. I really, really wouldn't. That constant consumption of sugar and iron can't really be good for anyone, can it?

Giving molasses as a boost, when a goat needs one isn't a problem. Making it constant and unavoidable will lead to metabolic disorders, mineral deficiencies (iron is an antagonist to many other minerals such as copper and selenium) and diarrhea and dehydration. 

They can't avoid drinking the water, after all...


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## mariarose

Any more baby pictures?


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## toth boer goats

With molasses it can spoil quickly in hot conditions and mold making it unstable and can make a goat very ill.

I wouldn't put it in your water supply.
Put it in a small bucket and give it to the doe who needs it.
It can go bad.
That is also the case with molasses in grains, not good.

Feeding molasses long term can cause issues such as scouring, ulcers, acidosis, overdose of iron, which cancels out copper and other minerals.
Some goat rumens will go off, if fed too long.
They still need their loose salt and minerals. No way getting around that unfortunately.

Does you water supply have iron in it?
If it does, no more iron is needed.
My water here has a lot of iron in it causing big issues, so I needed to install a water treatment system.

Molasses does have high potassium/magnesium/calcium levels.

Warm molasses water given to Does who just kidded is good for them, but it must be made fresh each time and changed often.
Goat milk doesn't taste good for some Does.

There is good and bad about molasses, and does have it's place, at the right times.


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## mariarose

@toth boer goats has really gone deeper into this question than I did.

We do understand wanting to utilize the nutrition you have available, really, we do. But in this instance, we fear MORE problems, not fewer. This really can cause some pretty severe health issues.


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## Nibaga

sorry for the late reply guys, haven't had connection for awhile.

ah i didnt knew, alright i will just have a sip once in awhile.
will try to get more pictures Maria 
thanks again for the advice

another twins delivered today


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## mariarose

Awww!
I love the protective stance of the mother. "You wanna hurt my kids, you'll have to go through me!"

The following is to a current conformation critique thread you might like to read. Some nice pictures of a young person's herdmembers

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/conformation-of-my-goats.200445/

And I embrace many of the principles laid out in this pdf
http://www.mauldinherefords.com/jmauldin.pdf
It is specifically about Boers, but there is much in there about goats generally.


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## toth boer goats

Good advice as usual. 

So cute, congrats.


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## Nibaga

heres another pic of them maria rose..  
1 week old bucklings


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## Nibaga

hi guys asking for advice again 
if you guys were to pick which one price are all the same around 560 usd
can be registered as well. my personal pick are #5 and #4


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## Goat_Scout

I like #4 the best just from looking at those pictures. Nice topline, good legs, high withers, very long in the body, nice brisket, good depth of heart to name a few things. He does have a steep/kind of high rump, though it's not too bad.


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## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> I like #4 the best just from looking at those pictures. Nice topline, good legs, high withers, very long in the body, nice brisket, good depth of heart to name a few things. He does have a steep/kind of high rump, though it's not too bad.


thanks for the fast reply goat scout here's the plan breeding for #4
will try to inquire if not sold yet thank you


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## Goat_Scout

That's his planned pedigree? Some very good genetics in there on both sides. One of my Nubian does has Goldthwaite Bootonniere and Dear-Heart's "Omar", as well as Goldthwaite Lady Juliette in her pedigree (shown below)!

http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N001976400


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## Nibaga

yeah it is, alaminos goat farm in the phil is the pioneer of goat milking producer in the country

wow distant relatives.. will try to get him if his still avail..
do u have pic of ur goat?


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## mariarose

@Nibaga I just wanted to clarify, when you say #4, do you mean the 4th one in order of you uploading, or do you mean the one that has #4 right on the photograph?


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## Goat_Scout

mariarose said:


> @Nibaga I just wanted to clarify, when you say #4, do you mean the 4th one in order of you uploading, or do you mean the one that has #4 right on the photograph?


Oh my, I never even noticed those numbers, LOL! I meant the #4 one in the order he uploaded them - so in reality #2.


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> @Nibaga I just wanted to clarify, when you say #4, do you mean the 4th one in order of you uploading, or do you mean the one that has #4 right on the photograph?


the #4 that i upload with # hehee... if the #2 in reality. i will get the plan breeding  lols


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## mariarose

I was not trying to throw a stick into the gears, I just wanted us all to be looking at the same goats. So now, we'll all mean the ones with the numbers on the pictures... yes?


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## Nibaga

this is the sire of #2, goldhtwaite


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I was not trying to throw a stick into the gears, I just wanted us all to be looking at the same goats. So now, we'll all mean the ones with the numbers on the pictures... yes?


correct maria, i was referring to #'s


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## mariarose

I'll say that my least favourite is #3.


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## Nibaga

where u referring to this goat scout? if so this is the plan breeding


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I'll say that my least favourite is #3.


is it least maria cause none appeals to u? hehehe
if so i would pass all of them


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## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> is it least maria cause none appeals to u? hehehe


Not at all, I'd be interested in any of them. I'd especially be interested in @Goat_Scout's opinion of #1, frankly.

I don't know bloodlines, or how to evaluate pedigrees. I'm of no help there.


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Not at all, I'd be interested in any of them. I'd especially be interested in @Goat_Scout's opinion of #1, frankly.
> 
> I don't know bloodlines, or how to evaluate pedigrees. I'm of no help there.


you mean #2? no worries maria, thank u..


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## mariarose

No, I meant #1. The last one in the order you uploaded.


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> No, I meant #1. The last one in the order you uploaded.


ah i thought she was referring to #2, as she mention #4 through pics uploaded..now im confused hehe


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## mariarose

She was talking about #2. I was only saying I also would like her opinion of #1. Because he was the one who most caught my eye.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> She was talking about #2. I was only saying I also would like her opinion of #1. Because he was the one who most caught my eye.


ah that explains well lols, they have the same sire as #2


----------



## Goat_Scout

Nibaga said:


> where u referring to this goat scout? if so this is the plan breeding


YES, that is the one I was referring to....  He is a very nice buck, with an impressive pedigree! He also shares distant relatives with one of my does - the relatives are Goldthwaite Merlin, Goldthwaite Lady Juliette, and Goldthwaite Clematis. :7up:


----------



## Goat_Scout

Mariarose, #1 would probably be my second choice, judging from the picture. BUT, the #1 and #2 labeled bucks, also appear to be the oldest of the five so therefore have had more time to grow and mature. The other 3 bucklings are still pretty young looking to me. 

#1 buck appears to have a good top line, good legs (knees could be a little less knobby), nice length of body, good rump with not too much of an angle, high withers, good long dairy neck, great breed character (as all of the bucks pictured appear to have) and he seems to have nice width from his stance. I like him a lot, too. He could use more brisket though, he looks pretty flat there. I would love to see his pedigree (secretly hoping I see more of my does' relatives in him, LOL)!


----------



## Nibaga

hi goat


Goat_Scout said:


> Mariarose, #1 would probably be my second choice, judging from the picture. BUT, the #1 and #2 labeled bucks, also appear to be the oldest of the five so therefore have had more time to grow and mature. The other 3 bucklings are still pretty young looking to me.
> 
> #1 buck appears to have a good top line, good legs (knees could be a little less knobby), nice length of body, good rump with not too much of an angle, high withers, good long dairy neck, great breed character (as all of the bucks pictured appear to have) and he seems to have nice width from his stance. I like him a lot, too. He could use more brisket though, he looks pretty flat there. I would love to see his pedigree (secretly hoping I see more of my does' relatives in him, LOL)!


#1,#2, #5 have the same sire,

#1 dam's pedgree


----------



## mariarose

Thank you @Goat_Scout Our views align closely.


----------



## Nibaga

i was told #2 has split balls, only #5 has appear to have good balls. will try to ask for picture..


----------



## mariarose

#5 is long and lovely.


----------



## Nibaga

whats ur thoughts on him, will he grow like his half bros? i've read lots about split balls that it affects their productivity, although have no experience yet.. im weighing all my options

plan breeding of #5


----------



## mariarose

How deep is the split in #s 1 & 2?

The split grows as the buck ages. I don't think it affects the buck's ability to sire kids. But it affects the udders of the daughters and reduces the capacity for milk production. A small split does not hurt, but as I said, they get bigger. Pics would help.

The young one may grow out great. Or he may not. Can you get pics from the front and rear? Hard to tell the width of the stance from full on side view. Do you have any pics of his dam? Nutrition will make a big difference in how he grows. Will you be able to provide the same nutritional support that his older brothers had?

These are just some thoughts. As I said, he is long and lovely. His back seems a little weak, but that may be his stance, it may be his markings. I like his rump.


----------



## Nibaga

will try go get, this one i got from their fb page though its an old photo yr ago
that is his dam ( angelika)
and sire (alaminos)


----------



## Nibaga

hi, i was told that his balls is unbalance also,
#4 has split but even balls...
and i was told that if split scrotum is a concern, he recommended buck #5
photos will be available monday.


----------



## mariarose

I don't know what you mean by "unbalance" and by "split but even". So I can't even begin to comment there.

I do know that this is hereditary, and since you are counting on your bucks to raise up your herd, you don't want to perpetuate something that is going to bring your herd down.

I'm not trying to be mean, really! We'll help as much as we can from where we are.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I don't know what you mean by "unbalance" and by "split but even". So I can't even begin to comment there.
> 
> I do know that this is hereditary, and since you are counting on your bucks to raise up your herd, you don't want to perpetuate something that is going to bring your herd down.
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean, really! We'll help as much as we can from where we are.


what i mean by unbalance is like this ,,, i will have to wait for the photos monday


----------



## mariarose

Well, that is split, I do see that...


----------



## Goat_Scout

I know what you mean about an unbalanced scrotum, and that is definitely not desirable. _*I *_don't see a huge problem with a split if it isn't too big. Both of my bucks right now have very small splits, but their scrotums are perfectly balanced and nice otherwise.

Bummer about #1 and #2's scrotums, I really liked them. Don't make any final decisions though until you get more pictures or are able to see all five bucks in person.


----------



## mariarose

Goat_Scout said:


> I know what you mean about an unbalanced scrotum, and that is definitely not desirable.


Can you explain that to me?


----------



## Goat_Scout

mariarose said:


> Can you explain that to me?


From what I understand, it's basically where one half of the scrotum is larger than the other, so it has a twisted/ugly appearance. I've seen quite a few bucks with this problem.


----------



## toth boer goats

#2 # 5 # 4
In that order.


----------



## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> From what I understand, it's basically where one half of the scrotum is larger than the other, so it has a twisted/ugly appearance. I've seen quite a few bucks with this problem.


yes as @Goat_Scout describe iit @mariarose, if its indeed true that #2 has split and unbalance scrotum then his out of the picture,

as for #4 he has split but balance.

#5, #4 #1 would be the choices,

i will have to wait for their photos,


----------



## Nibaga

toth boer goats said:


> #2 # 5 # 4
> In that order.


can you explain it to me as why 2, 5, 4 thanks toth ehehe


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> can you explain it to me as why 2, 5, 4 thanks toth


Yes, I'd love to know what you are seeing, too, @toth boer goats


----------



## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> I know what you mean about an unbalanced scrotum, and that is definitely not desirable. _*I *_don't see a huge problem with a split if it isn't too big. Both of my bucks right now have very small splits, but their scrotums are perfectly balanced and nice otherwise.
> 
> Bummer about #1 and #2's scrotums, I really liked them. Don't make any final decisions though until you get more pictures or are able to see all five bucks in person.


 whats the maximum inches you can tolerate for split balls?


----------



## mariarose

That would depend upon the age of the buck, because the split grows. If the picture just above is on a fully mature buck (A few years old, not a few months old) then I would think that was not awful. Note, I am talking about the split there, that I can see. Not the imbalance, which I can't. I have vision problems, and I just don't see it.

I'll try to find out more about what is acceptable. I've only had one split in my herd ever, and it wasn't bad at all. Less than 1/2 inch.


----------



## mariarose

This is an interesting thread on the subject. https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/buck-scrotum.180294/ I'll keep looking and report back.

I'm back. OK, so Boers (according to the ABGA) can't have more than a 2 inch split when fully mature, but they don't say when they think that is. Dairy goats (from the ADGA disqualifier pdf) does not mention splits at all...

"14. Bucks with one testicle (cryptorchid) or with abnormal testicles will have lower sperm production and be lacking in reproductive efficiency, even if fertile. It is normal for testicles to hang slightly unevenly and vary moderately in size. Excessively crystalline or hard to the touch, excessively soft and spongy to the touch, and atrophied testicles should be considered abnormal."

I'll be back.


----------



## Goat_Scout

For dairy goats, I think I read somewhere that splits longer than 1 1/2 inches are a disqualification in the show ring. Now I don’t show, but I breed for conformationally correct Nubians and I will probably sell to some people who show. 
I personally think most splits are ugly though, so when I am in the market for another buck I will make sure he doesn’t have split. My two bucks’ splits are very small, and aren’t visible unless you, ummm, pull the testicles apart a tiny bit. When they were babies though, the splits were more obvious.


----------



## toth boer goats

Nibaga said:


> can you explain it to me as why 2, 5, 4 thanks toth ehehe


 It is conformation wise on each. And all around look.

However, splits are not good and I do not recommend them, they are easily passed down to offspring. 
The split can get worse per generation. 
If bred to a Doe who has it in the lines and if you have to breed closely related.


----------



## mariarose

toth boer goats said:


> If bred to a Doe who has it in the lines and if you have to breed closely related.


Which is a concern in this particular case...


----------



## Nibaga

thanks guys, indeed i dont want to add more problems in my herd

saw this one in their fb page, posted august 31 '18.. DOB December 8, 2017 AGF 157 is sired by max cameron and dam is maxim darski, both imported from jacobs pride


unfortunately he is sold


----------



## mariarose

I take it the last picture is the buck being offered for sale? If so, he seems nice. Are you able to match the nutritional regimen offered his sire and dam? Is he broad in the chest and escutcheon? I can't really tell from the one side pic.

Here is a thread you may be interested in following, or contributing to....
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/forages-high-in-oxalates.200793/


----------



## Nibaga

these are they front, rear photos guys  unfortunately #2 is sold

#1 seems to have a good scrotum and attachment among those 3, downside is that he's rump is a lil bit down, i think? lols

#5 overall seems to have good scrotum but smaller in diameter than #4, he's lil bit thin compare to #4 as well who's about the same age... but he's the most promising in my eye, stance, rump .he's still young and we can't really tell how he'll grow after 2-3 yrs.. so as for the other 2.

#4 would be my last choice. but he has much better angle rump than #1 i think? and his scrotum attachment aren't as good as the 2.

awaiting feedback from you guys @toth boer goats @Goat_Scout @mariarose

ill decide from there...my goal is to correct my herd major faults. mostly rump and topline which i think u all have seen...
coloration is a bonus, some local breeders are attracted to it like #4 lol
some guy i talk to, told me to get #4 because of his coloration, a show type! and of course its goldthwaite nubian color trademark (black), well of course i laughed LOL!


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> these are they front, rear photos guys  unfortunately #2 is sold
> 
> #1 seems to have a good scrotum and attachment among those 3, downside is that he's rump is a lil bit down, i think? lols
> 
> #5 overall seems to have good scrotum but smaller in diameter than #4, he's lil bit thin compare to #4 as well who's about the same age... but he's the most promising in my eye, stance, rump .he's still young and we can't really tell how he'll grow after 2-3 yrs.. so as for the other 2.
> 
> #4 would be my last choice. but he has much better angle ramp than #1 i think? and his scrotum attachment aren't as good as the 2.
> 
> awaiting feedback from you guys @toth boer goats @Goat_Scout @mariarose
> 
> ill decide from there...my goal is to correct my herd major faults. which i think u all have seen...
> coloration is a bonus, some local breeders are attracted to it like #4 lol
> some guy i talk to, told me to get #4 because of his coloration, a show type! and of course its goldthwaite nubian color trademark (black), well of course i laughed LOL!


Of the pictures you loaded this time, I like the 2nd one, the one in the middle, the one that says AGF165 on the picture (just to be clear about the one I mean) the best.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Of the pictures you loaded this time, I like the 2nd one, the one in the middle, the one that says AGF165 on the picture (just to be clear about the one I mean) the best.


agf 165 was your first choice before from the previous photos uploaded.
what you think about his split? @mariarose thanks for the time replying maria though its getting late there


----------



## mariarose

Was it? HaHa. I had no idea which was which. I guess there is something about that one that appeals to me.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Was it? HaHa. I had no idea which was which. I guess there is something about that one that appeals to me.


yap lols.. if you could tell me, id like to hear it lols


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> what you think about his split?


It is just after 1 in the morning here.
What time is it there?
About the split, it is hard for me to see because it is not obvious. How deep do you think it is?

I don't like the black one, at all.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> It is just after 1 in the morning here.
> What time is it there?
> About the split, it is hard for me to see because it is not obvious. How deep do you think it is?
> 
> I don't like the black one, at all.


im not really good at estimating but, probably at least 1/2 inch or less. 2pm phil time,,

can you tell me why? just in case i run out of options lols


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> if you could tell me, id like to hear it


I like how broad and straight he is. Also very masculine. I like masculine bucks. I realize he is older, but still...

As I said, I don't like the black one, very narrow, and he stands all akimbo. Not like the others, who look like they are pushing to get away, but more like that is normal for him.

The last one, the brown one marked AGF 201 seems fine in those pictures, and I'm certain you'll wind up with some fine kids from him, between him and the buckling you have already bought, you'll see improvement in your herd soon.

If the split in AGF isn't too bad, though ( I can see there probably is one, but it isn't obvious how deep it is) That would be my pick.


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> 2pm phil time,,


So, you are 11 hours behind me, or 13 hours ahead...

Is it October 29 there, or October 28?


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I like how broad and straight he is. Also very masculine. I like masculine bucks. I realize he is older, but still...
> 
> As I said, I don't like the black one, very narrow, and he stands all akimbo. Not like the others, who look like they are pushing to get away, but more like that is normal for him.
> 
> The last one, the brown one marked AGF 201 seems fine in those pictures, and I'm certain you'll wind up with some fine kids from him, between him and the buckling you have already bought, you'll see improvement in your herd soon.
> 
> If the split in AGF isn't too bad, though ( I can see there probably is one, but it isn't obvious how deep it is) That would be my pick.


then black one would be out of the picture,
we'll wait what have @toth boer goats @Goat_Scout have to say about the splits and ill decide from there..

thanks for the input @mariarose
im ahead its monday afternoon already


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> we'll wait what have @toth boer goats @Goat_Scout have to say about the splits and ill decide from there..


Then I hope they are able to reply quickly for you.

Any other pictures of your babies? They must be growing and getting all pulled together by now!


----------



## Nibaga

yeah i hope so too maria 

here's photos of them


----------



## mariarose

I want to just snatch them up and give them kisses!
How are the moms holding up? How are their udders shaped now?
I'm keeping in mind that these could be bred to your new bucks and I'm trying to see how they match.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I want to just snatch them up and give them kisses!
> How are the moms holding up? How are their udders shaped now?
> I'm keeping in mind that these could be bred to your new bucks and I'm trying to see how they match.


aren't they cute hehe... ok let ill let you rest now @mariarose  good night, thanks again for the help


----------



## toth boer goats

Aww, adorable. 

Yes, I agree with Mariarose.


----------



## Nibaga

So i guess ill be taking him.. thats 2-0 for #1 lols

Can u see his split @toth boer goats


----------



## toth boer goats

Not the worse I have seen, I don't like any split but, you don't have a lot of choices.


----------



## Goat_Scout

Love his width!


----------



## mariarose

Goat_Scout said:


> Love his width!


What about the 3 scrotum pictures, @Goat_Scout? How do they rate in your assessment?


----------



## Goat_Scout

Is this the #5 buck, the one you said has an uneven scrotum? I would pass on him.








#4, the black buck, definitely a no. He is just very, very narrow and does have a high rump. Very pretty color though. 

I do really like #1 buck, I can't see a split from the pictures though. His scrotum seems a bit small, but other than that looks fine to me. For reference, below are a few pictures of my Nubian bucklings, both were 5-6 months old (I really hope city people never stumble upon this thread! ):

























Do you have any other pictures of #2?


----------



## Goat_Scout

So I was just re-reading everything posted in the last couple days and saw that you said #2 is sold. #1 is definitely the best choice out of the remaining 4 bucks IMO. He is really nice.


----------



## mariarose

Goat_Scout said:


> I really hope city people never stumble upon this thread! )


It's good for them.


----------



## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> Is this the #5 buck, the one you said has an uneven scrotum? I would pass on him.
> View attachment 138461
> 
> #4, the black buck, definitely a no. He is just very, very narrow and does have a high rump. Very pretty color though.
> 
> I do really like #1 buck, I can't see a split from the pictures though. His scrotum seems a bit small, but other than that looks fine to me. For reference, below are a few pictures of my Nubian bucklings, both were 5-6 months old (I really hope city people never stumble upon this thread! ):
> View attachment 138463
> 
> View attachment 138465
> 
> View attachment 138467
> 
> 
> Do you have any other pictures of #2?


#2 was the one that has uneven scrotum, but if u thought #1 was #2 then he must be really the one that i should get. i will call the breeder hopefully its still available at this moment.
#5 according to the breeder has a good scrotum (apparently its not) after sending photos.

your other buckling seems to have split right? how deep is it?

thanks for these photos @Goat_Scout will surely keep it for my references.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> It's good for them.


lol would they run?


----------



## mariarose

Goat_Scout said:


> So I was just re-reading everything posted in the last couple days and saw that you said #2 is sold. #1 is definitely the best choice out of the remaining 4 bucks IMO. He is really nice.


@Goat_Scout I think @Nibaga is getting confused by what we like and what we don't, as the number system is completely out of whack now from where it started.
Do you like the AFG 165 picture, or the AFG 201 picture, best? Pam and I both prefer the AFG 165. The pictures with the AFG numbers is post number 158 on page 8.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> @Goat_Scout I think @Nibaga is getting confused by what we like and what we don't, as the number system is completely out of whack now from where it started.
> Do you like the AFG 165 picture, or the AFG 201 picture, best? Pam and I both prefer the AFG 165. The pictures with the AFG numbers is post number 158 on page 8.


no worries maria, i will definitely get agf 165 which is #1 from the previous uploaded pics,  your 1st choice . been calling the breeder but no answer yet, probably still sleeping hehe


----------



## Goat_Scout

Ok, I am so sorry if I've been confusing you this whole time... That's not unusual for me, LOL!

Besides my first three posts regarding the bucks (on page 6) when I say #1 I mean this one, AGF165:
















And when I've said #2 I've been referring to the one pictured below. You said he is sold though, so he isn't an option anymore.


----------



## Goat_Scout

Nibaga said:


> yeah it is, alaminos goat farm in the phil is the pioneer of goat milking producer in the country
> 
> wow distant relatives.. will try to get him if his still avail..
> *do* *u* *have* *a pic* *of* *ur* *goat*?


I must've missed this question... (it's on post #114 from page 6)
Yes, click this link and scroll down to see some pictures of her:
https://zareemeadows.weebly.com/matilda.html



Nibaga said:


> your other buckling seems to have split right? how deep is it?


And yes, both of my bucklings (I posted pictures of them earlier today) have small splits. I didn't realize that until I brought them home at 4 weeks of age. I will see if I can show you pictures of their splits. They are only 1/4 to 1/2 an inch long.


----------



## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> I must've missed this question... (it's on post #114 from page 6)
> Yes, click this link and scroll down to see some pictures of her:
> https://zareemeadows.weebly.com/matilda.html
> 
> And yes, both of my bucklings (I posted pictures of them earlier today) have small splits. I didn't realize that until I brought them home at 4 weeks of age. I will see if I can show you pictures of their splits. They are only 1/4 to 1/2 an inch long.


beautiful herd @Goat_Scout i wish someday i could have does like yours hehe

how much did u bought for those 2 bucklings if u dont mind.

#1 buck is available,


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> #1 buck is available,


Huzzah! Are you convinced to buy him? Or shall you keep looking?


Nibaga said:


> how much did u bought for those 2 bucklings if u dont mind.


I know you weren't asking me, but the most I ever spent on a buckling was $700.00 USD for a registered Kiko.


----------



## Nibaga

im buying it maria 

seller is charging me an additional 100 usd for registration...

almost the same for this buck,,600 unregistered,


----------



## Goat_Scout

Awwww that’s wonderful! I’m sure he’ll make a great herd sire for you. 

And thank you for the compliment! I’m hoping to keep most, if not all of the doelings born this coming year from my 3 Nubian does. I can’t wait for kidding to begin! 

The white buckling, Israel, was $500. I had put a deposit on him 4 months before he was even born (I’m sure y’all do that over in the Philippines?). 

The brown/belted buck, Orion, was originally priced at $700 but when we went to pick up Israel, the breeder offered him to us for only $200 (they had many kids born this year so I think were a bit overwhelmed and wanted a couple gone ASAP), so of course we couldn’t turn that down. He is a very nice buck, probably nicer than Israel and they both have great genetics. I still can’t believe we were able to get both of them, LOL.


----------



## Nibaga

yeah some breeders you have to lineup, especially if you want to get registered pb doeling, 

oh yeah for 200 thats a great deal, and he turn out great, handsome fella, i like the brown one more  ....u rarely see an offer like that here, if its a percentage buck at 87% you'll get offer around 200, can i see his pedigree? hehe


----------



## Goat_Scout

Yeah, I like Orion's conformation more than Israel's, although Israel was born half the size of his littermate and is still trying to catch up. He just needs a bit more time I think.

Here's Orion's pedigree:

http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N001974866


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Huzzah! Are you convinced to buy him? Or shall you keep looking?
> 
> I know you weren't asking me, but the most I ever spent on a buckling was $700.00 USD for a registered Kiko.


can i see yours too @mariarose

nice pedigree @Goat_Scout there's bloodline in phil iron owl,,, very masculin buck

the doe is agf 165's dam  beautiful


----------



## elvis&oliver

Reading through this thread was like an educational story. I don't want it to end, like the end of a good book you wish it to keep on going. @Nibaga I love the pics of your goats and applaud you for all your work! These breeders on here work harder then I can imagine on their breeds and herds to produce quality goats but we also have more options to do so. So I applaud you a little louder for your dedication and patience and also the love you have for your goats. An owner who loves their goats works this hard! Thank you for sharing it so I could read it. Thank you to all the breeders here who are teaching at a higher level to lil goat owners like me. Looking forward to seeing your successes which I know you'll have because you're such a go getter! Sending you good luck wishes for every purchase and I hope the perfect goats come your way and are just the right price for you

@mariarose ty for the tip


----------



## elvis&oliver

@Nibaga 
Just a simple question but I was wondering about the breeds there. What are the most popular breeds? Are the main goat breeds there more working, meat and dairy goats? Only asking because I have 2 fiber goats and I find different breeds so interesting.


----------



## mariarose

@Nibaga doesn't always have internet, so he may not answer immediately @elvis&oliver


----------



## Nibaga

elvis&oliver said:


> Reading through this thread was like an educational story. I don't want it to end, like the end of a good book you wish it to keep on going. @Nibaga I love the pics of your goats and applaud you for all your work! These breeders on here work harder then I can imagine on their breeds and herds to produce quality goats but we also have more options to do so. So I applaud you a little louder for your dedication and patience and also the love you have for your goats. An owner who loves their goats works this hard! Thank you for sharing it so I could read it. Thank you to all the breeders here who are teaching at a higher level to lil goat owners like me. Looking forward to seeing your successes which I know you'll have because you're such a go getter! Sending you good luck wishes for every purchase and I hope the perfect goats come your way and are just the right price for you
> 
> @mariarose ty for the tip


All thanks to @mariarose @Goat_Scout @toth boer goats guiding me through this project.
Members in this forum are always there for you. Asking help and tips. Learned alot from them, and still learning.
If i were to register my buck, i will name it with their associate name.. thinking of GS Marioth. 

Usually here we comsume more meat (native goats) boers are popular only for breeding materials. Its rare that we butcher them for meat,

As for dairy goats and dairy products it isnt popular yet. But its booming industry. We mainly use nubians. But ive seen few breeding lamancha and saanen.

Its going to be a long journey. And for breeding materials, we dont have much to choose from, I cant afford to import from usa yet. And requires alot of govt permits.

Thank you, and im hoping for the best and to you as well.


----------



## toth boer goats

So glad we helped, like the name thing.


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> If i were to register my buck, i will name it with their associate name


I'm thrilled, embarassed, and so, SO honoured.



Nibaga said:


> Usually here we comsume more meat (native goats) boers are popular only for breeding materials. Its rare that we butcher them for meat,
> 
> As for dairy goats and dairy products it isnt popular yet. But its booming industry.


I'd be further honoured if you would contribute to my current thread with your native goats. A good picture and a short (or long) blurb about them, what they contribute to your island history or economy. The thread is this one
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/rare-or-landrace-breeds-in-the-media.200801/
I know you don't have the same estimation of their value that I can afford to have, but I don't know anyone else to ask about your natives. Pretty Please?


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I'm thrilled, embarassed, and so, SO honoured.
> 
> I'd be further honoured if you would contribute to my current thread with your native goats. A good picture and a short (or long) blurb about them, what they contribute to your island history or economy. The thread is this one
> https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/rare-or-landrace-breeds-in-the-media.200801/
> I know you don't have the same estimation of their value that I can afford to have, but I don't know anyone else to ask about your natives. Pretty Please?


sure, i will do that @mariarose 

its my token of appreciation


----------



## Nibaga

sorry guys im here again lols, i was about to travel next tuesday but the breeder sent me a new buck that was been canceled. ( i inquired this buck before but told it was reserved) and it is already adga registered. 3-4-5 are the latest pic.. what you guys think? @toth boer goats @Goat_Scout @mariarose


----------



## Goat_Scout

Hmmmm.... That buck (AGF157) has a better scrotum than AGF165, but AGF165 is wider and long in the body, and seems to have a better topline. I think I'd just stick with AGF165 from looking at the pictures.


----------



## Nibaga

thank you @Goat_Scout


----------



## Nibaga

you are right @Goat_Scout agf165 has much wider body, your good at judging


----------



## Dwarf Dad

I hate to come in when you are looking for advice, but I have a question.
I was looking at the registration form for #157 and his sire and dam have the same sire. It might be possible the sire's dam and dam's dam may be sisters(only a possibility with their registration numbers being consecutive). What kind of problems could come from his offspring if this did happen?


----------



## Goat_Scout

Thanks! Yeah, seeing those pictures, he is pretty narrow.


----------



## Nibaga

Dwarf Dad said:


> I hate to come in when you are looking for advice, but I have a question.
> I was looking at the registration form for #157 and his sire and dam have the same sire. It might be possible the sire and dam's dams may be sisters(only a possibility with their registration numbers being consecutive). What kind of problems could come from his offspring if this did happen?


i havent experience it myself yet but most local breeders do linebreeding or inbred. I read comments not to do it.


----------



## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> Thanks! Yeah, seeing those pictures, he is pretty narrow.


Yeah very dissapointing lmao.


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga, I've been at the hospital all day,so if you've already decided on one or the other that is fine. 

For myself, I still like 165 best. But I understand that with 157 already being registered you are saving a lot of money maybe. If that is a significant consideration for you then I do not dislike this one at all. I see considerable plusses in 165 over 157, Such as if you start out closely related your usefulness as a herdsire is shorter, but I'm not the one paying for him. Thank you for showing him to us.


----------



## Nibaga

o sorry @mariarose hopes everythings ok,

yeah i decided to just keep the 165 , for the price its just the same
and his inbred 20% saw his pedigree in adga, the only good side of that buck was his scrotum and he isnt wide as the first choosen buck.

thank you as well for taking time replying.


----------



## mariarose

If the price is just the same, including registering, then no question in my mind 165 is the better deal. How is your reserved buckling coming along? I'm assuming you are still getting him, or has that changed? If you have 2 bucks, you can use them on each other's daughters and keep them as herd sires longer.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> If the price is just the same, including registering, then no question in my mind 165 is the better deal. How is your reserved buckling coming along? I'm assuming you are still getting him, or has that changed? If you have 2 bucks, you can use them on each other's daughters and keep them as herd sires longer.


yea you are right @mariarose, he's getting heavier and looks healthy, he weighs 24kg as of last week...got a pic of him when he turned 3 months old, his turning 4 soon. and will be ship to be mid december to 1st week of january, for my native's udder ill post it as well...and a lil update for my kids hehe
that is what im planning to do now maria,


----------



## mariarose

Some nice lookers you got there, @Nibaga!!!!


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Some nice lookers you got there, @Nibaga!!!!


thx @mariarose


----------



## elvis&oliver

Very nice goats I’m sending you the best of luck with your herd. Looking forward to seeing them in the future.


----------



## Nibaga

elvis&oliver said:


> Very nice goats I'm sending you the best of luck with your herd. Looking forward to seeing them in the future.


thanks @elvis&oliver

my percentage 87% boer buck , but sold it to him in august @180usd

boer doe is the last boer i have..


----------



## Nibaga

a better view of their udder @mariarose


----------



## Goat_Scout

That Boer doeling is nice looking!


----------



## toth boer goats

Nice.


----------



## Nibaga

thank you @toth boer goats and @Goat_Scout


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> a better view of their udder @mariarose


Whose udders are those, Nibaga? Your native moms'? the darker one has a nice medial. The white one has a weak medial. I've lost track of if you've asked me something.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I want to just snatch them up and give them kisses!
> How are the moms holding up? How are their udders shaped now?
> I'm keeping in mind that these could be bred to your new bucks and I'm trying to see how they match.


i was replying to this @mariarose


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> i was replying to this @mariarose


I'm sorry. I'd forgotten I'd said that.


----------



## mariarose

@Nibaga I've been talking with someone in Sri Lanka about feeding goats and making hay. I've asked him to invite you to the conversation because I think you have similar climates. If he invites you, that's what it is about. His name is Faslan.

Do you have your new buck yet?


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> @Nibaga I've been talking with someone in Sri Lanka about feeding goats and making hay. I've asked him to invite you to the conversation because I think you have similar climates. If he invites you, that's what it is about. His name is Faslan.
> 
> Do you have your new buck yet?


sorry for the late reply @mariarose
i requested for a cae and brucella blood test.
as i need it to travel province to province in case i get stop by animal quarantine inspector at each province's border

yea sure, new ideas would help


----------



## Nibaga

hi guys..
here's an update of the buck, just got him yesterday, i will isolate him from the main herd for a month. I wasnt able to get him as scheduled cause i was waiting for the cae and brucella result.


----------



## elvis&oliver

Good for you! I was wondering how you were making out. I hope he proves to be just what you need


----------



## mariarose

Your girls are going to love him, Nibaga! He's very manly.

Do you have access to selenium? I ask because he looks a little deficient in selenium. Here in the States we can buy selenium pills for humans at the drugstore.

How are things there. Are you doing OK?


----------



## Dwarf Dad

Glad he finally made it.


----------



## Goat_Scout

I saw last week on their FB page a post where a buck was being picked up. The buck looked almost exactly like your guy, so I thought to ask (but forgot). 

Congratulations! I bet you're so glad to finally have him home.


----------



## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> I saw last week on their FB page a post where a buck was being picked up. The buck looked almost exactly like your guy, so I thought to ask (but forgot).
> 
> Congratulations! I bet you're so glad to finally have him home.


 yea probably it was, but we had problem along the way and my buck had to stay in someone else farm for a week due to legal issues with the shipper. 
im so glad that he's home now and he is in adjusting mode, his bleating loud this morning


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Your girls are going to love him, Nibaga! He's very manly.
> 
> Do you have access to selenium? I ask because he looks a little deficient in selenium. Here in the States we can buy selenium pills for humans at the drugstore.
> 
> How are things there. Are you doing OK?


 sure they do maria ,
yes maria we do have, injectable will do? how can u tell?
i've searched that bfore, and if if im right, it would look like a fishtail right?


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> injectable will do?


Oh, I don't know. Is this injectable for livestock? or humans?


Nibaga said:


> it would look like a fishtail right?


No, that is a copper shortage.


Nibaga said:


> how can u tell?


The tail is flopped sideways. Now, it may not be selenium. others have said similar tails happen in their bucks during rut. But in my herd, because I have such a difficult time with selenium deficiency, I'd be giving selenium if I saw a tail like that.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Oh, I don't know. Is this injectable for livestock? or humans?
> 
> No, that is a copper shortage.
> 
> The tail is flopped sideways. Now, it may not be selenium. others have said similar tails happen in their bucks during rut. But in my herd, because I have such a difficult time with selenium deficiency, I'd be giving selenium if I saw a tail like that.


ah good observation maria, now that u mention it, only notice it now. lols
if its in capsule for human, how much do u usually give? 
will observe it and if it stays like that for more than a month then i will give him selenium, 
is it something to be concern of?


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> if its in capsule for human, how much do u usually give?


I'm afraid I don't know, because I'm a spoiled American who can get anything she wants (almost)!!! and I can get selenium supplements for goats. I'll see what I can find out, though!


Nibaga said:


> is it something to be concern of?


Yeah, selenium is one of the really important ones

This supplement is a common one here. The dose is 5ml per goat. I have given that much daily until I see that tail strengthen. I don't know how that would translate to a pill for humans. I also imagine that the form the selenium is in would make a great deal of difference, too.
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=50d6622d-c3c0-48c1-90f1-ccdb85563b19
A selenium supplement that we have to get from a veterinarian is called Bo-Se.


----------



## mariarose

Here is a good thread. It is old, so don't revive it because the people in charge don't care for that, but it has some good info on making your own supplement if that will help.

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/recipe-for-diy-selenium-vitamin-e-and-d.181967/


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I'm afraid I don't know, because I'm a spoiled American who can get anything she wants (almost)!!! and I can get selenium supplements for goats. I'll see what I can find out, though!
> 
> Yeah, selenium is one of the really important ones
> 
> This supplement is a common one here. The dose is 5ml per goat. I have given that much daily until I see that tail strengthen. I don't know how that would translate to a pill for humans. I also imagine that the form the selenium is in would make a great deal of difference, too.
> https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=50d6622d-c3c0-48c1-90f1-ccdb85563b19
> A selenium supplement that we have to get from a veterinarian is called Bo-Se.


ok maria, will try to look for bose if we have here..
thank u


----------



## mariarose

Nibaga said:


> ok maria, will try to look for bose if we have here..
> thank u


We have to get Bo-Se from a vet. We can't just buy it ourselves.


----------



## Nibaga

i made a gamble acquiring this purebred nubian doe almost 3 months ago. 
i traded my percentage nubian buckling and native doe for her, she was too thin and neglected by d previous owner. She's not fully recovered yet but definitely much healthier than bfore. 
im planning to breed her with my newly acquired buck.


----------



## Goat_Scout

She looks much better! :clapping:


----------



## Dwarf Dad

You've done very well for her!


----------



## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> She looks much better! :clapping:


thanks  and good news my other nubian gave birth hehe


Dwarf Dad said:


> You've done very well for her!


thank dwarf


----------



## Goat_Scout

Awwww, how precious! Bucklings or doelings?


----------



## Nibaga

Goat_Scout said:


> Awwww, how precious! Bucklings or doelings?


Twin bucklings again hehehe


----------



## mariarose

I'm sorry? Or do you have a healthy market for them?


----------



## toth boer goats

Cute.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I'm sorry? Or do you have a healthy market for them?


they'd sell fast for meat


----------



## Nibaga

look at him posing for picture  ... his 2 months old now


----------



## mariarose

That's awesome! Is that his dam in the background?


----------



## Dwarf Dad

Good looking youngster.


----------



## toth boer goats

Nice.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> That's awesome! Is that his dam in the background?


yes thats his dam @mariarose 


Dwarf Dad said:


> Good looking youngster.


thanks @Dwarf Dad 


toth boer goats said:


> Nice.


thank you @toth boer goats


----------



## NigerianNewbie

Consider posting a picture of him in the thread Goats Looking Proud because he is certainly standing proud. Nice looking goat.


----------



## Nibaga

happy new year guys


----------



## NigerianNewbie

Happy New Year to you @Nibaga


----------



## toth boer goats

Happy New Year.


----------



## Nibaga

lil update on my herd, 2 of my dams gave birth on 1.3.19 (%boer) and 1.8.19 (%nubian)
both are bucklings


----------



## Dwarf Dad

Congratulations! Good looking little bucklings.


----------



## Nibaga

Dwarf Dad said:


> Congratulations! Good looking little bucklings.


thx dwarf


----------



## toth boer goats

Nice.


----------



## mariarose

What are your plans for them, @Nibaga?


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> What are your plans for them, @Nibaga?


i'm planning to sell them when they are wean, or at 4 1/2 months, will see @mariarose 
i was hoping for doelings so i could keep but they gave me bucklings... hehe

specially the %nubian, i like her udder,


----------



## Nibaga

Dwarf Dad said:


> Congratulations! Good looking little bucklings.


thx dwarf


toth boer goats said:


> Nice.


thx toth


----------



## Nibaga

hi guys,,, its been a while.. i would like to give you guys an update on my buck u guys have chosen for me. i think he's already adjusted to its environment and new home.

u guys can view it on facebook



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=410566529696754





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=404617723632320


----------



## mariarose

Hi again Nibaga! Great to hear about this. How is your first buckling doing? The one that you had already reserved when you started this?


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Hi again Nibaga! Great to hear about this. How is your first buckling doing? The one that you had already reserved when you started this?


his doing great but the shipper is having a lil bit trouble getting its connecting flight confirmed..
he can only get direct flight to manila and he wants me to pick it up there which is 8 hours away.

if he cannot get a connecting flight confirmed by march 15, he is willing to refund me.
i will upload video of him so you could see him, he is already in rut.
and tell me what u think. i can kind a like agf165 top line alot more


----------



## Nibaga

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=331836924205888


@mariarose this is him now... video was sent january 18,
what do u guys think? he's 6 months in this video

if i were to go pick it up in manila, the breeder would give me 100usd to compensate for my transportation. but i need atleast 400 to go pick it up in manila airport.

i am contemplating on getting refund by march 15 if cannot be ship to the nearest airport where i live.


----------



## mariarose

I like your second one better... and I don't like this one well enough for me to have to spend more money to get him. But I'll support what you want to do. He certainly seems healthy!


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> I like your second one better... and I don't like this one well enough for me to have to spend more money to get him. But I'll support what you want to do. He certainly seems healthy!


thanks maria... i was thinking the same... top line isnt so great..
other than that he seems ok.. but will not spend another hard earned money.


----------



## Nibaga

hi guys breeder sent latest video of my reserved buckling



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1203713836471595





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=384317195463141


----------



## mariarose

There is a lot about him that is developing nicely. Nice chest and escutcheon, long dairy neck, beautiful coat...


----------



## Trollmor

Sorry I cannot add anything (except for the importance of being careful when introducing animals to new companions, for infection reasons), just happy to see this thread! So far, I have not understood where you live. Nibaga?


----------



## goathiker

Nibaga is in the Philippines.


----------



## mariarose

Philippine Islands. I've forgotten which one, specifically.


----------



## Trollmor

Now having read one more page of this very interesting and nice tread, I may add that I personally is very much for local rural breeds. They are very often well adapted to the local circumstances - and add to this world's biodiversity! 

Thanks, mariarose and goathiker for your answers! - Aha, the Philippines. In that case the local breed is probably exactly that. Local. Don't make them extinct, the genes may be very useful in 100 years!


----------



## Trollmor

toth boer goats said:


> I have been slam hard by a buck with horns. I wasn't paying attention, it was raining and I was trying to stall a Doe who would get slammed by the dominant Doe. I was in the barn chasing her around to get her stalled, the buck did not like that then slam me full force on my lower leg and swept me off my feet.
> Literally, I landed flat out on the ground.
> Seen him close and got up quickly, but in pain.
> The impact of hitting force and when I got up, my thong strap was broke. My toes and leg hurt, as well as my whole body. It felt like I was hit by a Mac truck. Was pretty bruised the next day.
> I was lucky nothing was broke.
> 
> This yearling buck buck was over 300 lbs.
> He was a calm buck prior, so never think it is OK. They have a mind in rut, that can be crazy and some even when not.
> Especially playing with them, as he is doing in the video, they see it as a challenge.
> Luckily they are not horned, but can still inflict damage.


So, now I have read as far as this in this very nice thread! I agree, do not "play head butt" with any animal! There are so many nice ways to play with a billy buck, like climbing, running, jumping, petting, stroking, forageing, training ... (If you want to train him, ask Damfino for advice!)

And again: THANKS for a very nice distraction from my personal problems!


----------



## mariarose

Trollmor said:


> If you want to train him


Goathiker also packs so she has excellent training experience behind her as well.


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> There is a lot about him that is developing nicely. Nice chest and escutcheon, long dairy neck, beautiful coat...


thank u @mariarose for the wonderful feedback, only the top line that isnt pleasing to my eyes and has high rump. but i guess there's no perfect goat.

This one has a better scrotum diameter and no split than agf165 (marioth gscout)
what i have observed so far is, by watching the video 
he is also more aggressive. 
I have never seen marioth gscout this aggressive yet.

overall marioth has a better conformation 
but seeing his recent video, i cant seem to pass on this buckling (named him marvelous) hehe

and if the shipping pushes through my plan is to make marioth gscout my main herdsire.
all offspring from marvelous will be bred by marioth in the future 
if all gathered information are true, that a healthy buck can live up to 8-12 yrs.
then i will be keeping them as my breeders for 8 yrs and see the result to it.
(if no changing plans)

thank you all guys for your help.

ps: yes i live in the Philippines in the island of Luzon


----------



## Trollmor

Aggressive? Do you want an aggressive buck? If he is in pain, he has an excuse for being bad tempered, but how will he treat his "wives"? What if he gives this feature on to his offspring?

(And don't forget to check his teats, as we have learnt in another thread!)


----------



## mariarose

@Trollmor This is a culture that values "eagerness" and "assertive willingness to show manliness" which is closer in meaning than "agressive" which has come to indicate mean, vicious, willing to cause harm. At least, this is what I think is meant.

Myself, I prefer calm and laid back, but Nibaga has to consider what his market wants and expects. Also, this abundant libido would indicate there is not a zinc deficiency!


----------



## Trollmor

Yes, and Nibaga must also consider what he wants himself!


----------



## Nibaga

Sorry.. i guess i used the wrongword hehhe... what i meant by aggressiveness is high in libido.. or sex drive hehhe..


----------



## Nibaga

No worries if we can tame a water buffalo or cow.. what more with a goat hehe


----------



## mariarose

It's very subtle, the differences in the terms. Your English is just fine.


----------



## Trollmor

Hihi, we both try to speak this very wild and foreign language, sometimes with misunderstandings as a result. Let me try again: What kind of temper do you want in your goat flock?

And when looking for a new sire for your does, try to look at him from many points of view! Temper, health, his mother's production ... Because the genes of the buck you buy will be (50%!) in all your kids next year.


----------



## Trollmor

Nibaga said:


> Sorry.. i guess i used the wrong word hehhe... what i meant by aggressiveness is high in libido.. or sex drive hehhe..


When I think of it once more, I remember that if a human is over-sexy, he might be called "He is a real buck!" (This you do not want to hear about yourself, or about a close friend or relative.) Because most billy-bucks are very easily aroused. In one way this is of course very natural, but it might not be necessary to breed for more! 

I have also noticed, among my own goats, that pain increases the sex thoughts of a billy. So if you see a buck for sale who is extra much fluffing and puffing and waving his front leg, without any doe in heat nearby, then be extra keen on trying to find out if he is in pain, and, if so, why. So that you do not risk buying any damage or disease into your flock!


----------



## Trollmor

mariarose said:


> @Trollmor This is a culture that values "eagerness" and "assertive willingness to show manliness"


Maybe I should volunteer that in my culture, words like "kind", and "capable" are still more valued.


mariarose said:


> Also, this abundant libido would indicate there is not a zinc deficiency!


This is a good point!


----------



## Nibaga

Trollmor said:


> When I think of it once more, I remember that if a human is over-sexy, he might be called "He is a real buck!" (This you do not want to hear about yourself, or about a close friend or relative.) Because most billy-bucks are very easily aroused. In one way this is of course very natural, but it might not be necessary to breed for more!
> 
> I have also noticed, among my own goats, that pain increases the sex thoughts of a billy. So if you see a buck for sale who is extra much fluffing and puffing and waving his front leg, without any doe in heat nearby, then be extra keen on trying to find out if he is in pain, and, if so, why. So that you do not risk buying any damage or disease into your flock!


thank you @Trollmor will take note.
haven't thought of that. great theory 

and for the last part. what kind of disease would that be?

here in phil. the most that i know of is they only check for diseases like brucella cae and cl, and probably most common goat diseases.

thankfully he is negative on brucella and cae


----------



## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> @Trollmor This is a culture that values "eagerness" and "assertive willingness to show manliness" which is closer in meaning than "agressive" which has come to indicate mean, vicious, willing to cause harm. At least, this is what I think is meant.
> 
> Myself, I prefer calm and laid back, but Nibaga has to consider what his market wants and expects. Also, this abundant libido would indicate there is not a zinc deficiency!


thank u @mariarose good point on mineral deficiency.
have learned a lot from u


----------



## Trollmor

Nibaga said:


> and for the last part. what kind of disease would that be?


I have no idea what problems might cause a buck for sale to be over-sexy! I only know that MY billies reacted in that way when they were in pain. One got very bad-tempered, butted towards everyone, including me, which he had never ever done before. He turned out to have got arthritis, which is known to be painful! I had him killed as soon as I understood how bad it was.

And thank you for sharing, so we can learn about goats in the Philippines!


----------



## Nibaga

Trollmor said:


> I have no idea what problems might cause a buck for sale to be over-sexy! I only know that MY billies reacted in that way when they were in pain. One got very bad-tempered, butted towards everyone, including me, which he had never ever done before. He turned out to have got arthritis, which is known to be painful! I had him killed as soon as I understood how bad it was.
> 
> And thank you for sharing, so we can learn about goats in the Philippines!


Yeah i heard that cae or arthritis is contagious. And if one has they must be separated from the herd and culled


----------



## Trollmor

Nibaga said:


> Yeah i heard that cae or arthritis is contagious. And if one has they must be separated from the herd and culled


CAE is a virus, and contagious. Arthritis is, as far as I know, auto-immune, and not contagious.

I killed my billy because he had bad pain. What I was trying to say was, that we must be aware of behaviour changes, because they can be an early sign of problems.


----------



## mariarose

A small correction, Many different forms, or causes, of Arthritis exist, and some of them, such as CAE, are contagious.

CAE is short for Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis.

I'm sorry you had to make that decision about your buck. I've done mercy killings, too.


----------



## Trollmor

Thanks, that billy-buck died in 1979, so the mental wound has healed.

So CAE can cause arthritis as well, voooee!

Back to billy purchase. Look him through thoroughly before making your decision, good luck, and don't forget to share more photos with us, when you have them!


----------



## Nibaga

hi @mariarose i remember u told me before about his tail.. i cant remember the exact word u said but i think u know what i am talking about...

look at his tail now @mariarose  it is not as curly as bfore. hehe



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=272211353672139


----------



## Nibaga

hi guys, just dropping by to give u guys an update of marioth gscout, he is now registered and you can view his registration under the link below, thank you guys again for helping me choose my very first purebreed nubian buck.

http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N002003802


----------



## ksalvagno

Good! Congrats!


----------



## mariarose

We are honored you let us in on your process!


----------



## toth boer goats

(thumbup)


----------



## Trollmor

Good luck with your new acquisition! :kid::kid2::kid3::kid2::kid3::kid::kid::kid2::kid3::kid2::kid3::kid::kid::kid2::kid3::kid2::kid3::kid:


----------



## Nibaga

hi guys its been long time 
heres a lil update on my herd.. 2 of my does gave birth, triplets (but lost 1 of the kid when he was month old  and twins
all sire by marioth gscout
he's now 1.5 yr old.
waiting for 4 does to kid this month, all sire by him




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=325989331655840





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2421516007891153





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=424793858342910


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## mariarose

Oh they are just GORGEOUS, Nibaga! What are your current thoughts about your direction... Still on the same path? Any different plans? I'd love hearing.


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## Dwarf Dad

Really good looking kids!


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## Nibaga

mariarose said:


> Oh they are just GORGEOUS, Nibaga! What are your current thoughts about your direction... Still on the same path? Any different plans? I'd love hearing.


Thanks maria.. yeah still the same.. hopefully more doelings on next kidding... so far its 4 bucklings 1 doeling.. 
Id really like to get nubian doe adga registered as purebred but cant afford it right now.. would cost me around 1k usd..


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## Nibaga

Dwarf Dad said:


> Really good looking kids!


Thx dwarf


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