# Tree Hay? Why not?



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

So my dad had this idea for reduction in hay cost and winter forage. Why can't we cut tree branches and dry them like hay? I originally kind of scoffed at the idea because I figured if it was possible, everyone would be doing it, and when I look it up on the internet I found only a few hits on it, but apparently tree hay is a thing, although I can't find much on how it's done or whether it is a viable option. Basically the gest is you either cut small branches or strip the leaves off when they are green, dry them, and store it somehow. Not really sure on the details yet. My concerns would be what kind of nutrition content remains in the leaves when cut? Would it be able to replace hay entirely? What kind of trees would this not be appropriate with? And most importantly, I feel like there has to be a catch, or everyone would be doing this. What do you think?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Interesting. I wonder if you could just bale dry leaves. No idea on nutrition.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

No clue. But I like the idea.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

I've done it with black walnut leaves. If you cut them while still green and dry them, they stay green. The goats still loved them after being dried. 

Don't try saving any fruit tree branches though, because if they turn brown they release a poisonous substance to goats. 

I think this would be a good idea to try!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

This is very old, and has an old name which I can't remember at the moment. It is in one of the Ruth Goodman Peter Ginn projects. I'll see if I can't dig this up tonight. We own all of their "... Farm" series-es, but there are several.

It does work, and if I could give you the proper name for the practice, I'm certain you could find out more info.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

mariarose said:


> This is very old, and has an old name which I can't remember at the moment. It is in one of the Ruth Goodman Peter Ginn projects. I'll see if I can't dig this up tonight. We own all of their "... Farm" series-es, but there are several.
> 
> It does work, and if I could give you the proper name for the practice, I'm certain you could find out more info.


Please tell! I love those series by the way.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

NicoleV said:


> Please tell! I love those series by the way.


Oh, I knew I loved you!

I'll do my best. There is SO much info in them, I don't always remember what I saw where... I'll try!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It's called pollarding and has been done in England for thousands of years. 
Ready for information overload? I've got my tree list prepared and a few months studying behind me lol.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Ready for information overload? I've got my tree list prepared and a few months studying behind me lol.


Overload away, my Overlord (er, Overlady)...


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

goathiker said:


> It's called pollarding and has been done in England for thousands of years.
> Ready for information overload? I've got my tree list prepared and a few months studying behind me lol.


I knew you would beat me with the answer. Lol I researched it. I don't think I'll be doing it. Missing a pair of vestibular nerves, so I need to stay on ground.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I will be staying on the ground as well, no monkey impersonation for me. There's more than one way to skin a... er pollard/coppice a tree.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

We all know that goats really aren't meant to eat hay. What you maybe don't know is that every English livestock animal ate trees, even rabbits and chickens. 
Pollarding is a way to grow pasture for summer and trees for winter in the same space, running the animals under the pollards. Coppacing is a more intense system allowing more trees per area and more tree hay per acre. 
Coppacing means working on the ground. I plan to do something in between, collarding lol.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

My trees will be cut at 3 feet, about waist high. 

Now, about those trees. This list came about after a lot of research. All are safe for all animals and known to coppice well. 

100 Russian Mulberries 
100 Basket Willows 
100 Big Leaf Maple 
100 thornless Honey Locust 
50 Hybrid Poplar 
25 Linden (basswood) 
25 Tulip Tree 
25 Oregon Ash


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Why these trees or how it's actually done? Decisions decisions


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Interesting but seems like a lot of work.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Wow, thanks for all that information @goathiker. This is really interesting to me and I see you have tulip tree on your list. By that do you mean tulip poplar? That is actually the tree I was thinking of trying this with.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, it was called that before they changed it's classification. It's now a member of the mongolia family. 
So, how then? 

Pick trees that are less than 5 years old and 3" thick. These will heal and have more vigorous regrowth than older trees. 
For coppice cut straight across 3 to 6 inches from the ground. Colard 3 feet or so from the ground. Pollard 6 to 8 feet from the ground. Branches are cut @ 8 inches long and you may leave 2 or 4. Never unbalance the tree. 
Excess and lower branches are cut flush with the trunk. 

Cut off trees during the dormant stage, February or March is good in cold climates. January or February where warmer. If you wait until the sap is rising the tree may bleed to death. 

In the spring you should see a bunch of branches start growing right up out of the bark collar, the sides of the tree, and the base. Around the end of July 5 years later cut all these off and start over. The collar and the growth buds are delicate and shouldn't be injured so cut them about an inch above where they come out of the tree.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

mariarose said:


> This is very old, and has an old name which I can't remember at the moment.


The old Swedish word is _hamla_, and you can see for a long time where the trees have been "hamled". There are descriptions of children and grandmas climbing the trees, letting the twigs/leaves fall down on blankets, these being handled by people on the ground.


MellonFriend said:


> I feel like there has to be a catch, or everyone would be doing this.


That catch (thanks for the word!) is that it takes a lot of work, and more room for storing than hay.

It also takes much knowledge to "hamle" a tree so that it gives leaves also the following years.


ksalvagno said:


> Interesting but seems like a lot of work.


Indeed!

As for kinds of trees, I do think old people here chose all kinds of non-toxic trees, wild and tame. My daddy showed me how to make bundles to put indoors for drying (standing up for best drying result), and the goats just loved this in winter! If you are not afraid of work, you can replace much hay with leaves.

Those of you who give it a try, do share photos of your goats eating these delicious treats during winter!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

100 Russian Mulberries 
This is the most important tree, bred over centuries to be coppiced for silk worms. In China they cut it off as often as every 3 months. This one will be cut once a year in May. By the time fall comes it will be regrown again and finish a normal cycle. 
The leaves are at 20 to 24% protein, high in vitamins and minerals, and have shown good results in feed tests. They increase growth and weight gain in all tests. 

100 Basket Willows 
These also are bred to be coppiced. They are also supple and strong. Plus if you mess up and kill one you just stick a branch from another in the ground and a new one grows. 
These will be cut every other year. The livestock will eat the greenery and the wood will be used for wattle fencing. 

100 Big Leaf Maple 
These are very useful. 50 will be orchard planted and maintained as multistem tall shrubs. The fall leaves will be raked and used for bedding. 25 will be planted in the under story of the pine forest to improve the ground, these will be coppiced for fence hurdles as well. The remaining 25 will be growing firewood on long rotations. 

100 thornless Honey Locust 
Very dense hardwood. 30 year fence posts and awesome firewood. 50 for each thing. Planted among the other trees they also help fix nitrogen. 
50 Hybrid Poplar 
Tree hay on 2 year cycles. 

25 Linden (basswood) 
These will be an experimental species for my area. Tree hay if they can handle it. 

25 Tulip Tree 
Firewood 

25 Oregon Ash
Tree hay 

So, what does a year look like? 
May, Mulberries 100 trees~ 4 per day 
June, Willows 50 per year~ 2 per day 
July, Poplar hybrids 50 per year~ 2 per day (I'll clone 50 more) .
July, Linden 12 per year~ 1per day
August, Ash 5 will be sentinels so 10 per year no biggie. 
So far pretty quick days and since their isn't any real drying to do you're done with it the day you cut. 

Cut tree with long handled bypass pruners, tie tightly into a bundle, throw into truck, take bundles to well ventilated storage area, tie 2 bundles at the base, throw over rack...done. 

I know a guy working 6000 trees and feeding 32 Boer goats 350 lbs of tree hay a day year round. It takes him about 4 hours daily during harvest season.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

goathiker said:


> 100 Russian Mulberries
> This is the most important tree, bred over centuries to be coppiced for silk worms. In China they cut it off as often as every 3 months. This one will be cut once a year in May. By the time fall comes it will be regrown again and finish a normal cycle.
> The leaves are at 20 to 24% protein, high in vitamins and minerals, and have shown good results in feed tests. They increase growth and weight gain in all tests.
> 
> ...


That is a really good plan! How much acreage are you needing for this?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Well by the sound of this I really think I am going to have to try this at least in some manner. Storing would be the big issue. Question: Once it is dried would it need airflow? Something that comes to mind as easier storage would be cutting up the sticks or stripping the leaves off and sticking them in garbage bags.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I think they need much air. When dry, the leaves will be brittle. The goats probably like them better if not cut to pieces.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

For the question of space, the stocking rate for coppice blocks is 5000 trees per acre. The initial planting I outlined will fit easily in a 70×70 foot space. 

For drying and storage. I plan to build 4 foot walls with a gate in each end. The walls will have cattle panels hooped on top to create a round topped area about 32×12 ft. I will install a line of support posts down the middle for stability and anchoring. These will ultimately become part of the racks. Summer tarps will be uv bouncing silver tarps and winter tarps will be heavy truck tarps. Both will last a few years if cared for. 
3 28 foot racks give me 84 linear ft. Enough room for 160 bundles. Fill one rack at a time in a pattern. When they're all full, go back and put on the second layer. Everything about tree hay is pack it tightly, keep it out of the sun, and keep it ventilated until the winter temperatures.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

And Mellonfriend, don't activity dry it. Let it slow dry in storage preserving the vitamins. 
Garbage bags are coated in pesticides and will compost the leaves. Maybe slow feed hay nets?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Now, the rest of the story lol, anyone remember Paul Harvey? Wait, no I was told about him, yeah that's the ticket. 

Has anyone noticed hay prices skyrocketing? Need to add more and more to the diet to keep healthy animals? 
I've watched on here: minerals, pellets, grains, parasites, vitamins, deformed hooves, birth issues, copper, zinc, iodine, D3 (most miss that one) still... 
Our lands are no longer sustainable for hay growth. If I can use some stuff from OSU: 
The downfall of this country is when we quit using leaves for bedding and fertilizer. 
Sustainable hay is no longer possible. 
Unless perennial crops are put to use this country will eventually starve. 

OSU has been coppicing trees for their goats for several years now. I'm lucky in that they have small homesteading seminars and the campus library is open to everyone. The professors are even willing to expound on a subject.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

goathiker said:


> The downfall of this country is when we quit using leaves for bedding and fertilizer.


Waste! Great waste!!! Use them for feeding, possible leftovers first to bedding, then, when mixed properly with urine, for the compost which then goes to fertilizing.

Everything in a good order, said Aslan. (When at it quoting; only I had to seek in Wikipedia for the rest of the story!)

(If you have had the effort to bring leaves in, and dry them!)


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I couldn't afford to keep goats at all if I couldn't free range on our rough timber land... There just isn't enough bottomland here to grow everything, and as you say, the bottom land is poorer and poorer.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

goathiker said:


> Now, the rest of the story lol, anyone remember Paul Harvey? Wait, no I was told about him, yeah that's the ticket.


We won't call you old. lol That was Paul Harvey, Jr. thaat you listened to. Wasn't it?


goathiker said:


> Has anyone noticed hay prices skyrocketing? Need to add more and more to the diet to keep healthy animals?
> I've watched on here: minerals, pellets, grains, parasites, vitamins, deformed hooves, birth issues, copper, zinc, iodine, D3 (most miss that one) still...
> Our lands are no longer sustainable for hay growth. If I can use some stuff from OSU:
> The downfall of this country is when we quit using leaves for bedding and fertilizer.
> ...


In the back of my mind, I felt that way, I never put it together quite so coherently.
Please keep educating those of us who have a hard time connecting the dots.


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## Nudanud (Mar 1, 2018)

I've just looked into this as well since I already have 8 acres of overgrown shelterbelt, but it's just too time intensive. It's way less time for me to scythe hay by hand for the same amount of tonnage..if I had an actual sickle bar, it'd really be a no brainer. Maybe when I'm older and not raising/schooling children and trying to start a farm, I'd try it for ha ha's.

Another drawback for me would be the mess of branches left behind in the winter! I feed downed branches/trees in the summer, and it's a pain cleaning up those sticks. Unlike hogs that pulverize everything, goats seem to get hung up pretty easily. It's not that it's hard to throw the defoliated branches back out, it's just awkward and scratchy...something I seriously don't want to deal with in sub zero temps.

Unless you are planting your forest from scratch and have it all planned out for super efficiency, MOST people prefer hay because of TIME.. time, time, time.. The most precious of commodities...


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Nudanud said:


> Another drawback for me would be the mess of branches left behind in the winter!


Unless you loooong for them when you want to make a fire in your stove! 


Nudanud said:


> MOST people prefer hay because of TIME.. time, time, time.. The most precious of commodities...


Jupp. And work work work ...


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## Nudanud (Mar 1, 2018)

We burn wood, but those sticks wouldn't be worth the effort to break them into manageable pieces. When it's -20F, you want logs. Sticks don't even warm the water in the boiler, and burn off far too fast indoors... 

I will work very hard for something that saves me time or money in the long run, for instance, cutting and splitting wood is one of my favorite farm chores, but comparative to making hay, coppicing trees to make hay does the opposite.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

See my youngest child was born in 1990. If we get the little farm we want than I'm going to take a half acre and put it into tree hay. The well tested out at 11 gallons per minute with only 30ft of drop over 4 hours. In fact after the initial drop it was refilling at 11 gpm. Plenty of water for drip lines. The tester said it was an excellent well with no issues. 
The top part of the acreage is one of those sterile unnatural peeler pole forests with the trees planted way to close together and no biodiversity at all. 
One of the first priorities will be to thin it out and improve that ground to get natural secondary growth going. The chipped remains of the tree hay and the maple leaf bedding will go a long way towards creating a more productive forest. 
White Pine peeler poles are a dime a dozen. White Pine given room to grow properly into lumber logs is worth a fortune. Once the salmonberries, huckleberries, and other native species are growing this will be plenty of summer browse for my small herd. 
Much knowledge is lost over generations. By doing this now my daughter and grandson will gain the ability to use it when/if it's needed. I fully expect that my 8 year old grandson will be able to tie bundles, load the truck and help rack. Many people don't expect enough of their children now days. 
Will it be as experiment? Yes. Will it be fun? I think so. I have time, I have the resources, so, why not?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

There's no reason why not, @goathiker I'm so glad I'm following this thread.


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## Drmike (Jun 23, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> So my dad had this idea for reduction in hay cost and winter forage. Why can't we cut tree branches and dry them like hay? I originally kind of scoffed at the idea because I figured if it was possible, everyone would be doing it, and when I look it up on the internet I found only a few hits on it, but apparently tree hay is a thing, although I can't find much on how it's done or whether it is a viable option. Basically the gest is you either cut small branches or strip the leaves off when they are green, dry them, and store it somehow. Not really sure on the details yet. My concerns would be what kind of nutrition content remains in the leaves when cut? Would it be able to replace hay entirely? What kind of trees would this not be appropriate with? And most importantly, I feel like there has to be a catch, or everyone would be doing this. What do you think?


My girls love dried leaves in the winter . I bag and store a load of leaves for use as chicken bedding during the year

I call them goat crisps. They can't get enough.

Another thing they love is tree bark (larch) which I get when I cut firewood. Packed full of minerals.

So in summer they get fresh leaves and chew bark off freshly cut logs and in winter they get dried leaves and dry bark to supliment hay


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## Drmike (Jun 23, 2019)

goathiker said:


> 100 Russian Mulberries
> This is the most important tree, bred over centuries to be coppiced for silk worms. In China they cut it off as often as every 3 months. This one will be cut once a year in May. By the time fall comes it will be regrown again and finish a normal cycle.
> The leaves are at 20 to 24% protein, high in vitamins and minerals, and have shown good results in feed tests. They increase growth and weight gain in all tests.
> 
> ...


My girls get fresh mulberry leaves everyday as I have a lot of mulberry trees. They also enjoy the fruit. Rest of their diet is maple leaves and weeds. I give them hay also and they have free choice. They prefer leaves to hay unless it's raining

I just trim off branches in the morning and throw them in the goat pen.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes Mulberries are awesome. I also have a recipe for mulberry mineral lick blocks.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@goathiker I beseech you, please post your recipe. I'd love to have it and also to post in on my mineral thread.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

Following


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Following too!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Drmike said:


> My girls love dried leaves in the winter . I bag and store a load of leaves for use as chicken bedding during the year
> 
> I call them goat crisps. They can't get enough.
> 
> Another thing they love is tree bark (larch) which I get when I cut firewood. Packed full of minerals.


So tell me what exactly you do to dry and process the branches if you would please.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Nudanud said:


> We burn wood, but those sticks wouldn't be worth the effort to break them into manageable pieces.


They make excellent starting wood, since they are small and very dry. For the real fire, of course bigger pieces do a better job!


Nudanud said:


> but comparative to making hay, coppicing trees to make hay does the opposite.


Yes, there is the main reason for people stop doing this!


Drmike said:


> So in summer they get fresh leaves and chew bark off freshly cut logs


And those logs do dry quickly, here we have a good example of cooperation between man and beast!


Drmike said:


> I call them goat crisps. They can't get enough.


I look forward to the earlier mentioned photos of goats eating these delicacies!


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## Drmike (Jun 23, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> So tell me what exactly you do to dry and process the branches if you would please.


I don't feed them dried branches only dried leaves and bark. There's not going to be much value in dried branches I would imagine. The leaves are best harvested before they fall dried and bagged but I generally just bag autumn fall leaves when they are sun dried. Not as nutritional but heck of a lot easier. The bark falls off when I'm splitting firewood and I just stack it somewhere dry. In winter most of their diet is hay just supplemented with leaves and bark if for no other reason than it's a free treat that they really love


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Autumn leaves, like dead grass in spring, seem to contain something the animals need. Maybe some vitamin; I do not know.

And the dead leaves of autumn, what a nice SMELL!


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