# Trying to find the best guard/ questions about llamas



## kramsay (Mar 7, 2013)

We finally signed the deed to our new property!!! We will be completely moved in with in a couple months, including all of the fencing up. The goats will be getting a much bigger pen about 2 1/2 acres, by summer I hope to have it divided so I can rotate..... The back of our property and their pen lines up to a woods for miles and I can't see the back fence line from the house because of a hill. We have wild dogs that run in large packs, coyotes, and every now and then a bob cat. I really want to get a guard of some kind I can't make up my mind on what I want though. I have a few questions.... I want to thank every one for putting up with all of my questions today, I finally got some alone time to research and do some farms shopping 

Donkeys: 
I have heard bad stories about them attacking the goats and they are really hard to find around here so I really don't think I will be going with a donkey.

LGDs:
-There are lots of breeders, some with goats.... no body selling older experienced dogs, I am afraid of getting a 8 week old puppy, how in the world is it supposed to learn to guard? 
-You aren't supposed to make them a pet, they are supposed to be part of the herd, I really don't think I will be able to keep a dog I can't make a part of my family. 
-A full grow dog will cost a lot to feed, then you have all their shots, flee/tick and stuff for the year. 

Llama: This is the one I am leaning towards 
-Low cost feed, I already feed hay and grain. From what I have read during summer they really don't need grain as long as they have hay and pasture. 
-as long as they aren't afraid of dogs they make good guards (from what I have read) 
-I found a rescue near by who places guard llamas  
- Can they have minerals high in copper? 
- How many do you need, can one guard by its self? 
- What vaccines do they need? 


I would like some deciding what would be the best.. Thanks again for reading and replying


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Llamas cost about the same as dogs in the long run. They are fairly large animals and eat quite a bit. They also need hoof trims and sheared at least 1x yearly.

They can make great guards IF you find llamas that actually have guarding instinct. Like dogs, they work best in at least pairs. I wouldn't recommend a single guard llama. Keep in mind that even the best guard llama cannot stand up to a pack of determined dogs or coyotes. I would recommend them for minor predator problems, but if you're dealing with coyotes packs, wild dogs, cougars, bears, etc...livestock guard dogs are going to be your best option. 

I always kept my goat minerals out and the llamas wouldn't eat them much. I never gave mine any vaccinations.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you have all those predators, a llama is not going to be able to protect. You would need at least 2 LGD to work as a team against that.


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

I've been doing research on guardians too and after looking at the 3 types like you did I decided on LGDs

In the long run it's easier for me to care for a dog than a llama. You don't have to shear it, trim it's hooves, and it'll eat at least a little less feed than a llama. Same with a donkey. They will also eat up my pasture, and I wouldn't want the llama or donkey to not have a stall like my horses do. Dogs do require shots, but my horse/goat vet can will give those.  LGDs are also much better suited for taking on other dogs, bobcats, coyotes, ect. 

The only thing about LGDs that's been a concern of mine is the training. There are so many conflicting answers out there on how to best train and LGD. It's been really frustrating finding out what the best things to do are.


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

I agree dogs are best. A llama isn't going to do a lot against most of those. My Pyrenees actually doesn't eat that much, shes a good weight. She does get a big raw knuckle bone every few days. But as far as dog food a few cups, more then that she'll leave it sit


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## DancingHoovesFarm (Nov 18, 2012)

Try researching Turkish Akbash dogs. That is the breed I have decided on, I have a mix now and am getting another pup in a few weeks. 

They guard by instinct. Hardly any training needed. 

Also I would never get a 8 week old puppy. They need to stay with there mom and siblings for at least 10-12 weeks, they learn a lot in that time and will be better dogs for it.


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## ChrisM (Jan 13, 2014)

I am also looking at a guard animal. We have a bit before we have our place fenced in so I want to do my research and be ready for when the goats get released out into the pasture. We are definitely looking at a LGD and not a Llama or donkey. My problem is the number of LGD's out there. Which is the best for the job and won't eat my neighbors' kids? Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherd, Akbash, Komondor, Kuvasz, Tibetan Mastiff, Maremma.... I'm sure I'm forgetting some. This is a bit overwhelming.


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## DancingHoovesFarm (Nov 18, 2012)

The akbash are nice because they only bark when there is something threatening their herd, they get used to certain things and will not bark at those anymore (such as airplanes flying over, cars driving by, kids next door, etc) . So I'm sure the kids will be fine if you bring them over once or twice to meet the dog.


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## ChrisM (Jan 13, 2014)

Akbash is on my short list. But I also like the Anatolian Shepherd and Kuvasz. I've read every website I can find that describe the personalities of each breed but that's just it, they are academic explanations. I want to hear from real life owners who can give me pros and cons or any regrets they have picking a particular breed. Just an example, you're the first I've heard of the Akbash and the fact they learn what not to bark at. The other problem with the doggie definitions is that they are general temperament guidelines; no breed can be nailed down to doing the exact same thing the exact same way specimen to specimen. Dogs are like people and have individual personalities.


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## DancingHoovesFarm (Nov 18, 2012)

Well I have also had great pyrs and pyr/Anatolian crosses and none of them could be around chickens. Now I have heard about people that have those breeds and they are fine with chickens. But that has been my dealing with them. They were great LGDs they were great with goats just not chickens. Which was a problem for me as I have quite a few and couldn't afford to keep losing them. 

But if you don't have chickens that wouldn't be a problem.


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## ChrisM (Jan 13, 2014)

See. Another thing the general descriptions don't tell you. Currently our chickens are in their own pen. A 30 by 70 enclosure that will be within the confounds of the perimeter fence. But I was hoping to have a few loose birds just to have running around the place and we will have ducks as soon as they hatch and are big enough to release on the pond. Hopefully getting a 12 week old puppy and letting him grow up with all these critters will decrease the chances of him killing anything. Thanks for the input. Gotta sign off now.


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## kramsay (Mar 7, 2013)

Maybe a dog would be good... I don't know what I want or need lol. I do know that I can't have a dog who barks all night as our neighbors house is really close, nor can it jump my fence (woven wire with a strand of barb wire on top) our house is on a state road, people fly down it even though its in a very rural area. I have also read not to allow your LGD's to interact with your pet dogs or they will think that dogs are ok. -- the front of the goat pasture is my back yard fence so my dogs, 1 jack Russell (male, nitro) and one soon to be German Shepherd puppy (female) will share a fence line with the LGd (if I get one). 

There are a couple things that worry me about a lgd.
I have read people use Ivomec to prevent heart worms in lgds, anyone do this?


From what I have read if you buy a puppy you need to house it in the middle of your goat pen, for a while to allow them to get used to each other. When you are there to supervise you can let them out. Then a week or so later as long as they get along good you can start letting them out with the herd for longer unsupervised periods of time, just make sure they have some where to "escape" if they need to.... 

Basic commands, like sit, stay, and come. Along with that's enough (barking) is about all they need to know, am I correct?

They need to be introduced to all members of the family so they aren't aggressive with them... 

Any thing else I should know about them ?


I really need to figure out which one would work best for me, I just wish this was an easy choice! Thank you every one for you help


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

I can answer I couple of your questions based on my research..



> I have also read not to allow your LGD's to interact with your pet dogs or they will think that dogs are ok.


Everything I have read has indicated you _should_ introduce your dog to your other dogs and pets. Your LGDs should learn to distinguish animals that are apart of their family and animals that are not and could pose a threat to their herd. I plan on introducing my puppies to my three little poodles.



> From what I have read if you buy a puppy you need to house it in the middle of your goat pen, for a while to allow them to get used to each other. When you are there to supervise you can let them out. Then a week or so later as long as they get along good you can start letting them out with the herd for longer unsupervised periods of time, just make sure they have some where to "escape" if they need to....


There's a lot of conflicting information on how to best train an LGD. Hopefully someone with experience in training one can chime in and give some insight on training..



> Basic commands, like sit, stay, and come. Along with that's enough (barking) is about all they need to know, am I correct?


Some people teach their LGDs to sit, stay, and come, but others choose not to. I think it's good to teach them skills like that because who knows when they'll come in handy. Another thing LGDs should learn is how to ride in a car and walk on a leash, in case they need to go to the vet or you have an emergency.



> They need to be introduced to all members of the family so they aren't aggressive with them...


It's good to indroduce them to your family, friends, and I guess anyone else you want them to meet. Some people like to socialize their dogs with a lot of people to prevent aggression, others give their dogs the bare minimum required to socialize them. The people that socialize their dogs a lot say that the dogs seem to known what people are trustworthy and which or not. Not saying that I hold that opinion and not saying that I don't, that's just what I've read.

There are some good groups on facebook for LGD info, but be careful. Some of the people on some of them are a bit abrasive. They can be a little tough on people. It's not as nice as TGS out there. :roll:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I sold my four llamas and got a year old anatolian shepherd male and a female pup. The llamas worked great for four years, but the coyote population has gone out of control here and my chickens were getting killed regularly. When I went out to feed and found one of my doe's, killed by coyotes, that was the last straw for me and I quickly sold my llamas and got dogs. The llamas were really good and took care of anything in their pen, but anything that got out was at high risk. Since getting my two anatolian shepherds, we have had zero losses. It's been over a month with them now and though that's not a lot of time...I see that the coyote scat and tracks are gone from the area and my last four chickens are still alive and free ranging so the dogs have made a big difference. The dogs are very intimidating to predators as where a llama is a prey animal and much more easy to challenge.

I have a big chainlink kennel divided in two for my puppy and the male. The male is now able to stay out with the goats without supervision and the puppy comes out during the day and is put back in her pen at night. I make sure to leave lots of toys for them to chew on, rawhide bones, rope toys, etc. Just anything that can keep them occupied. I also keep the food out free choice. I don't want to give them any reason to bother the goats. I don't plan on teaching them any commands besides "no" or "off." I do think walking on a leash could come in handy, but otherwise, I don't want them bonded to me more than the goats, I don't want them to look to me for companionship. They are meant to bond with the goats. The best LGD is bonded more with the livestock than the human so to me, spending time with commands and such is just creating a stronger bond with the dog than necessary. I can't really think of a reason why sit and stay would be helpful for a LGD to know. I also do not want to introduce them to my pet dogs. Luckily that's not a problem because my own dogs are at a different location. I want them to view any dogs as a threat, not a friend. However, any form of livestock that should enter their pen, I want them to be okay with. They need to know the difference. So far mine have been exposed to goats and chickens and don't mind either so it's going well. 

Introducing them to people who will regularly visit is okay, but in most situations, it's good for them to guard against people as well. 

Mine will not be allowed to go away from the goats or outside of the pens. I don't need them to do anything besides stay with and guard my goats. 

Every LGD owner does things differently. I am new to the whole training process, but am using common sense and have done my research. We'll see how these guys turn out. My year old male has already been doing a successful job at his previous owner's farm so i'm not too worried about him, but the pup is going to need a guidance. So far she's doing really well and seems to be pretty respectful of the goats.


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## ChrisM (Jan 13, 2014)

The only thing I have read consistently about basic training is the fact that due to their natural protective instinct and independent decision making, if you don't keep a strong alpha presence they will not listen to you at all. Even if they're used exclusively for working purposes and never made a "pet" they still have to have enough training to listen to you when you call them. You still have to maintain control and let them know you're in charge and basic training reinforces that boss/worker relationship. IMOSHO.


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## DancingHoovesFarm (Nov 18, 2012)

I think it is very important for the dogs to live in with the herd as soon as you get them, you really want them to bond with them ASAP so they will guard them. I wouldn't keep them in a pen with out any animals in it. I think that isn't good unless it is a older dog that you don't know if it can be trusted. 

Also I keep my dogs apart when I am training them, they are a lot more focused on me instead of on playing with the other dog. When they are trained enough they can be together but not until then. 

Oh and I do think it is important to teat them things like, sit, come, stay, no etc. just teaching them these few things will help them see that you are the boss and they have a job to do. Also if I see my dogs doing anything that I want them to, like watching the goats, barking at strangers, etc I praise them a lot. That way they learn what they are supposed to do. Also I never use treats to reward them with because I don't want them to be food motivated. I just praise and pet them a lot.


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## ChrisM (Jan 13, 2014)

Yep. Exactly what we'll be doing. I just have to decide which kind of dog I want. I am really leaning toward the Anatolian Shepherds. But there are a couple of others I like, too. It's going to come down to what I learn from owners who have tested them and actually know their idiosyncrasies. According to the book definitions of each breed, there isn't a nickel's worth of difference in their temperaments.


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## kramsay (Mar 7, 2013)

I have read more than 30 pages/articles on training a lgd, every one is defiantly different in the way they go about training... I defiantly won't be putting my puppy in with babies at first, maybe when the babies are 2-3 weeks old, I know my does won't let the pup hurt the babies because one attacked my basset hound for smelling the ground near the baby  

I am leaning towards a Anatolian... I would feel horrible having a Great Pyrenees in the middle of the summer, plus my hubby wants the biggest dog we can get and they are bigger than Great Pyrenees by 50+ pounds - I told him an Anatolian was the biggest because I know there is a breeder who raises them with goats about 30 min away, and most of the rarer breeds aren't sold around here so I didn't even research them. 


I will probably only teach, sit, stop/enough and no... also how to walk on a leash. I don't think I will keep a collar on it because to me it seems like that could be dangerous if they ever had to fight off a predator. 


I will probably introduce the dog to about 6 people, and that's it. When some one who I don't want the dog to know (a buyer ect.) needs to be in the pasture I will probably put the dog in a stall in the barn. 


The pup will not be allowed out side of the pasture and my "pet dogs" won't be allowed inside the pasture. Vet visits will be the only outside time they get, and I will probably give them most of their shots. 


I am guessing it would be a really bad idea to get two puppies at once?

As you can see I am leaning towards a dog or two... mainly because hubby said we are not getting a llama! hahaha he is a dog person, I told him no making a pet out of it and he agreed.


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## kramsay (Mar 7, 2013)

Kw farms, you have beautiful dogs


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## DancingHoovesFarm (Nov 18, 2012)

Oh, my dogs barks at and will not let a stranger in the pasture UNLESS the person is with me. Then he will let them in.


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## motdaugrnds (Mar 20, 2013)

ChrisM since your predator population is what it is, you would be better off getting two (2) LGDs and train them together. If you can get a pair that have been in the field with their "working" parents that is a big plus; however, it is also quite expensive. If you get "puppies" YOU will still need to provide some training.

I chose a Bulgarian Karakachan and I learned more from her than all I read on the internet. An LGD is a "thinker". The LGDs will do the jobs you give them THEIR WAY. What I discovered about training from my Karakachan is that they are like 4-legged children in how they develop. By that I mean they need to be protected while, simultaneously, letting them explore their new world. They need to be rewarded for everything they do that you want them to do and corrected in a positive manner when caught doing something you don't want them to do. This type of training builds confidence in an LGD. It will learn HOW TO FIT IN "your" world while behaving in ways as genetically designed.

When I first considered LGDs, I thought of the Anatolian as well; however, decided against it because of what I read about its need to roam large areas. (I didn't want a dog that needed a lot of space.) I thought about the Akbash and almost got it. Love the quiet seriousness of that breed. Love the Scarplanias for the same reason. The Karakachan I chose is now 10 months old. How I trained her to be with my dairy goats, an assortment of fowl and my family dog (Cujo, a labrodore) I put into an eBook in the Amazon Kindle bookstore ("Valentina, A Bulgarian Legend").

Chris, any LGD you choose will need a partner to have a chance at survival against a "pack" of wolves.


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## ChrisM (Jan 13, 2014)

I think there has been some confusion somewhere. I don't think there have been wolves in Georgia in a long time. :greengrin: I'm more concerned about neighborhood dogs getting into the fence than I am anything else. There are some coyotes around but not too many. Whatever LGD we end up getting will have the whole 6 acres to roam so space is not an issue unless they have the desire to go on walkabout in the outback. I do appreciate your input. Now I need to go and check out the Karakachan. I don't think I've seen that one yet. Thanks.


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