# For those who pull kids at birth



## Esther88 (Nov 11, 2012)

For all of you who pull kids at birth can you give me your step by step process of how you do it?
Do you leave on dam to get colostrum or do you milk your doe and feed it to them? Or do you use replacement colostrum? If you do milk it out how long after birth do you wait to do it? Do you take her to the stand like normal? What do you use for cleanup? Do you separate doe from her friends before kidding? Do you use a lamb bar or just bottle feed several times a day? If the latter how much? My doe is due in 5 weeks and want to have my plan laid out. Thank you in advance! :girl:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I don't usually pull kids unless there is a medical reason...but if I were to pull I would do it at birth...don't even let mom smell them or clean them, scoop them away and clean them in the house, have a playpen with clean pine shaving waiting for them...milk mom and give colostrum to babies via a bottle for a full 24 hours. If you have access to goats milk..I would raise them on it. for a starting point on how much milk, weight baby and multiply that by 16 to get weight in oz..then multiply its weight in OZ by 10-12% to see how much per day baby needs...then divide into 4 + feedings to start, as they get older reduce to 3 feedings until they are 2 months old, then drop to 2 feeding and so forth...
after each bottle Stand baby up and feel tummy..you want a flat but firm tummy, not sunken in or too poochy...adjust milk amount until babies tummy is good. Bottle babies will guilt you into eating too much,,so be strong. Re weight baby every week and adjust your math. Each baby is different, whole some do very well on more milk, some do not...if baby becomes lethargic, stops pooping or poops runny stool, refused bottle...ect..then he most likely has undigested milk in his tummy and needs a milk break...replace bottles with electrolytes fro 12-24 hours...

for kidding process, we have a kidding pen, all set up with clean pine shaving, fresh water ect...when mom shows signs of labor, I put her in the pen and stay watch over her. Once babies are born and strong, we reintroduce mom and kids to the herd...usually 1-5 days, depending on strength of mom and babies..


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

All does are separated when it's time for them to kid. I pull all my kids at birth. Does never sees them. They come out and go straight into a bin that is immediately removed from the pen. Makes separation EASY. Within an hour I milk out the doe and either feed the kids colostrum from their dam or another CAE- doe. I milk the doe in the stall for first milking and on stand after that. The kids get colostrum for the first 2 days. After that I start training them to lambar. Usually by 3 days I have them on free choice cold milk from lambar. I generally wean at 3 months.


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## Esther88 (Nov 11, 2012)

margaret said:


> All does are separated when it's time for them to kid. I pull all my kids at birth. Does never sees them. They come out and go straight into a bin that is immediately removed from the pen. Makes separation EASY. Within an hour I milk out the doe and either feed the kids colostrum from their dam or another CAE- doe. I milk the doe in the stall for first milking and on stand after that. The kids get colostrum for the first 2 days. After that I start training them to lambar. Usually by 3 days I have them on free choice cold milk from lambar. I generally wean at 3 months.


I have bottle raised kids before and used whole cowd milk and they did well (this was when I didn't have a doe in milk) this doe will be a 3rd freshener sjould she produce enough for them? Do you end up supplementing with other milk once you start using the milk a few weeks after kidding? Do you keep the babies out of sight of mom once they're ready to go back out or can they be in close proximity? My doe comes from a clean herd but she has not been tested I don't think. I'll check with the breeder. If not should I use replacer instead?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> I have bottle raised kids before and used whole cowd milk and they did well (this was when I didn't have a doe in milk) this doe will be a 3rd freshener should she produce enough for them?


Depends on the doe...if she has enough it would be good to milk her and feed them that or milk from another doe..however if there is not enough milk then whole cows milk from the store is a good second. I would avoid replacers if you can, however if you end up feeding replacer, be sure it contains NO SOY



> Do you end up supplementing with other milk once you start using the milk a few weeks after kidding?


 stick with what ever you start with if you can, but if supply is down..then go with cows milk



> Do you keep the babies out of sight of mom once they're ready to go back out or can they be in close proximity?


I would until mom no longer looks for baby.



> My doe comes from a clean herd but she has not been tested I don't think. I'll check with the breeder. If not should I use replacer instead?


If mom is not tested, then I would call around and look for a cae negative heard you might be able to get clean colostrum from and then feed cows milk OR test mom now...


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

I would get her tested. I've used replacer and cows milk along with goat milk. At one point last year were using _at least _7-8 gallons a day and not getting that much milk so we used replacer and cow milk and they did fine on it.
I wouldn't feed milk from the doe until she's tested. Or just pasteurize it first.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I'd test mom even if she came from a clean herd. You have plenty of time to get the results back so you know you are feeding the kids CAE - milk.

I'd remove kids before she can touch them to make the separation less traumatic for everyone.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Same practice here as Margaret (glad the lambar worked out so well for you!). If bottle feeding, I fed them like I would if lambar feeding. *Feed milk until full 4-6x a day, from birth onward until weaning. Free choice alfalfa hay, work up to 2+lbs or creep feed an alfalfa based pellet, free choice minerals. Starting at 3 weeks start them on cocci prevention until well grown, and worm as needed. 

*I want to clarify that you have to start this type of feeding from the time they are born. You will run into problems if you just suddenly dump milk to a kid that is on restricted feeding, and IMO any kid that is on measured amounts is restricted feed. 
I have never run into a problem feeding this way in over 20 years, and I was taught to feed this way by judges and the west coats big breeders around here. 

If you have a lack of goats milk, I urge you to feed cows milk first, and if you must, mix in replacer with what milk you do have.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

How do you set up a cold free choice lamb-bar? 

If I set up a cow sized bottle with ice packs for the day will the kids be alright while I'm at work from 6a to 7pm?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

A lambar is just a 2-5+ gallon bucket with holes drilled below the lip for the nipples to be pulled through. You then attach tubes to the nipples, long enough they reach the bottom of the bucket. And I cool the milk in the fridge and just dump in the milk after it's cold. In the summer I add a frozen jug of water to keep it cold, and on the hottest days I will partly freeze some of the milk until it is slushy consistency.
For me though, it doesn't really matter if the milk is that cold, it can be room temp, they'll be fine. You just want to make sure it will get eaten within 4 hours if you feed warm. Also if you try to feed warm milk in a lambar during summer, (one, don't do it) and two, prepare for that to turn into yogurt :lol:


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I'll only be doing two kids so I thought the bottle would be big enough verses doing the large bucket. Easier to keep cool and clean since it will be left for so long.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I only do lambar if I have more than 4 kids to bottle. It really is easier than I making it sound though. It stays cold for quite a while if you stat with cold milk and add an ice pack of sorts.
Here are some pictures of a starter lambar, and a 5 gallon lambar. The kids in the last picture are 1 month old, most had starting birth weights of 5-8lbs -- at 1 month they were over 30lbs, the buck on the right was 36lbs. Sorry about the filthy play house and the string with the board (needed something to hand a grain bucket on)


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

How I do it:

Kids get pulled at birth- no contact with mom
They get fed either pasteurized goat colostrum, the packaged colostrum or cow colostrum.

I feed as much as they will eat 4 times a day, up to 20 ounces. I add a pinch of baking soda in the first bottle of the day and the last bottle of the day. 

I usually keep them in the house for the first 2-3 weeks, then they get moved to the barn (by then they are jumping all over the place and have found out they can climb the steps and jump up on my bed)

I set up a creep feeder for all the kids, dam or bottle raised. When the bottle kids go to the barn, I put them with the doe herd.

I do cocci prevention treatments using Baycox (or the generic version) and deworming, starting at 21 days of age.

Up until now I have been bottle feeding them one or two at a time. This year I will be trying to set up a lambar.

I sell at weaning at 8 weeks for dam fed, or whenever someone wants one for the bottle kids. If I am keeping a kid, they stay on milk until I dry the does up in the fall. SOme of those kids will be 8 months old and still getting 2-1 liter bottles a day.

This is what has worked for me for 35 years or so.


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## Esther88 (Nov 11, 2012)

Thank you so much everyone! I love this site, such a wealth of knowledge. My doe was tested negative over a year ago but will go ahead and do it again. Also does everyone give BOSE 30 days prior to kidding?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I give a vitamin, mineral and CD&T shot 30 days before kidding.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

I will say that I've had trouble keeping it cold in the summer. Once you get up into the 90's it can be hard to keep it cold and it tends to turn into yogurt as Lacie said. I have to change the ice packs several times a day to keep it good.
And the latest I used lambar last year was June, this year though I'll have kids on it until August:eyeroll: sigh. Lucky me.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

See if you can find a larger bucket, like a 7 gallon, and freeze solid gallon milk jugs. Place in the larger bucket and fill with water until you find the 5 gallon mark with that frozen jug displacing the water. A frozen gallon will help keep it cold. And even still, it doesn't have to stay fridge temp. It can be 41+ degrees for 4 hours before it starts turning to yogurt from the bacteria growth.

ETA: Here is a 7.9 gallon one with measurements, pretty pricey for a bucket, but they last for years. http://www.homebrewsupply.com/7-9-g...ZSWF545PsxymTefOqSKsQAhfRss1ZG5JDkaApGu8P8HAQ


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## Esther88 (Nov 11, 2012)

So I do have the CD&T vaccine ready to give my does this week. However, I didn't realize the BoSe was an RX. Could I use the vitamin E selenium pastes instead? If I did when would I need to re administer? Any other vitamins I should use along with it? Also, when should I de worm her before or after she kids? Do the kids need any de wormer shortly after birth or just their CD&T vaccines? Edited to add I only have 2 does so an expensive BoSe rx doesn't seem practical to me.


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## Emzi00 (May 3, 2013)

I have used the paste and it has worked pretty well, since I'm doing my best avoiding the vet. :lol: I give it the same time as CD&T to the does, about a month before they are due, and to the kids when they are born, they just get a little bit on their tongues. I worm the does the day they kid.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Worm the does the day of kidding or day after. I've never used the gels so I cant advise on them. Kids do not need a cdt shot at birth, they dont really work until after you wean the kid since they get the vaccine through moms colostrum.


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## Esther88 (Nov 11, 2012)

Do any of you use horse de-wormer paste? Ivermectin is safe to use on pregnant does correct? If so how much do I use?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Relatively safe, yes. Measure it out into a needless syringe. 1cc per 60lbs. But there is no need to worm them while they are pregnant if they do not need wormed. Only worm them when they are pregnant if absolutely necessary.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Also, instead of buying a whole bottle of Bo-se - some vets will give you just what you need in a syringe if you don't want to use the gel.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> See if you can find a larger bucket, like a 7 gallon, and freeze solid gallon milk jugs. Place in the larger bucket and fill with water until you find the 5 gallon mark with that frozen jug displacing the water. A frozen gallon will help keep it cold. And even still, it doesn't have to stay fridge temp. It can be 41+ degrees for 4 hours before it starts turning to yogurt from the bacteria growth.
> 
> ETA: Here is a 7.9 gallon one with measurements, pretty pricey for a bucket, but they last for years. http://www.homebrewsupply.com/7-9-g...ZSWF545PsxymTefOqSKsQAhfRss1ZG5JDkaApGu8P8HAQ


Thanks Lacie, I may end up getting one of those for the later kids.


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## fcdairygoats (Jun 24, 2013)

We have always pulled kids at birth. I have been raising dairy goats since 2006. When I first started I would raise on CAE prevention so that meant heat treating colostrum & pasteurizing the milk. I would be present for every birth. Kids would be pulled immediately. As in I would clean the fluids off the face and out of the kids nose mouth and a quick swipe across their body and they would be wrapped in a towel and put in a box and taken to the house. If I was the only one transporting kids back to the house I would keep them in a box until the doe was done and take all to the house at once. I would milk out colostrum and heat treat it before feeding it to the kids if I didn't already have some thawing from the freezer. Kids were being kept warm and waited for their bottles. Never had any issues. I no longer raise on prevention although I would if someone preferred it and was able to pick the kid up with in a few days. I simply do not have the time or energy to raise on prevention any more. I still pull kids though and this year will be my first year dam raising if I choose to do so. I keep going back and forth on it! But I pull kids like I do with the prevention kids only I do not do the prevention so I just milk the colostrum into the bottles if I dont have any thawing from the freezer. If I do I milk it into a pail and strain it and freeze it if I don't need it. If I do then I have it when I need it. Kids are moved to the house at birth and started on bottles in the house...keep in mind we are in IN and normally kid out in Jan/Feb so it's cold and I have zero patience to deal with kids learning the bottle in the cold. I move kids from the bottle to a lambar as soon as I can. Every kid gets bose and vit e when they are born. 

First couple feedings are on our lap but after that we try to get them to eat standing up and switch to the lambar as soon as we can. Once they are eating off the lambar good (as in staying latched onto the nipple) I will make plans to move them to the barn. I do not move bottle kids to the barn. They have to be on the lambar to be moved. It's just easier for me and I have a concrete floor in the house so it's possible for us to do that. Depending on schedules I will feed 3 times a day for a few months before dropping them down. The one thing I do with my kids though is I start them out from the first bottle letting them eat all they want. They will stop when they are full and they will NOT over eat if they are started like that from birth. I do not do set amounts of milk. They get all they want at each feeding. They have no scours, no bloat, etc. And they grow very well. I also keep them on the lambar until they are 4-5 months old however at that age they are normally down to just once a day milk, all they can eat. I feed warm milk until it warms up outside. I don't want to feed the kiddos cold milk when it's 30 degrees or colder outside. It makes them cold and they use more energy attempting to stay warm. etc. Once it warms up I very gradually switch to cold milk....I get to the point where I take it straight from the refrigerator and put it in the lambar and feed it to them right away. The only time I let cold milk warm is at shows when the milk is in the cooler full of ice. Thankfully if does cooperate the kids are weaned prior to showing! But sometimes we have those late born kids. UGH.

This year all my does were bred for March-May kiddings...I am sitting here thinking I need to start prepping for kids then remember no I still have a few months before needing to do that! LOL I am not use to late kiddings!


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## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

So we pull kids at two weeks.. I know sounds crazy but it works. Mom gets to deal with the super frequent feeding and we still get bottle baby personality. Some times it a little difficult to start bottle but not too bad. And when we separate it's just by one fence and they see each other so no fussing the exception is if we only have a single kid. If we only have a single kid on farm we let dam raise.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Darlaj, if I have dam raised kids separated by 1 fence, they stick their heads right through and nurse from their dams


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## Esther88 (Nov 11, 2012)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Relatively safe, yes. Measure it out into a needless syringe. 1cc per 60lbs. But there is no need to worm them while they are pregnant if they do not need wormed. Only worm them when they are pregnant if absolutely necessary.


Thank you and silly me I meant lactating does. Her eyelids are slightly pale but not enough that I would de worm her now. How long after worming is it safe to drink milk?


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## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

margaret said:


> Darlaj, if I have dam raised kids separated by 1 fence, they stick their heads right through and nurse from their dams


That happened here too until I put deer net on the fence... Lots of zip ties


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## SchoneVidaFarm (Feb 29, 2016)

I just began bottle feeding this year. We've made our lambar with the Caprine Supply nipples and one-way valves, but the kids are having a rough time getting the milk up the straws. Anyone have advice? These kids are about 3-5 days old. I should add that some of them were on a gravity style lambar at 2 days old without trouble, but the straw style seems tricky for them even with the one-way valves. I'm worried they're sucking up too much air trying to get the milk to the nipples. I've even tried priming the tubes, but without much success. Thoughts?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

If you have the one way valves, make sure you have them set up right and all is put together tightly. Milk should not be able to flow back down into the bucket once it gets past the valve, milk should stay in the tube even if the kid lets go. And to prime the tubes, suck the milk up the tubes yourself, just don't let anyone see you do it


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I pull for CAE prevention. I take the kids at birth, the does never get to even lick them. When I first started in goats (in the 1980's) I pulled all the kids because I needed the milk. When I got the cow dairy, that really made me pull the kids because the goat milk was piped right into the cooler with the cows milk. Only our dairy rep knew what we were doing. :laugh:

I feed the kids either pasteurized goat colostrum, raw cow or CAE- goat colostrum, or the powdered cow stuff if I don't have any of the other.

I milk the does out as soon as the kids are settled, on the milk stand just like any other time.

I bottle feed every 4 hours or so, as much colostrum as the kid will drink. After their first day of colostrum, they get changed to pasteurized goat milk. I fill up a 20 oz soda bottle and they drink as much as they want 4-5 times a day until they are drinking the full 20 ounces at each feeding, 4 times a day. 

The 1st and 3rd bottle of the day gets a pinch of baking soda added.

When they are a week old, I add small amounts of human baby oatmeal to the last bottle of the day, so there is something solid in their belly at night.

On day 21, I add Boycox (or it's generic version) to one bottle for cocci prevention. I do that every 3 weeks until they are eating the proper amount of medicated feed.

I deworm them at day 21 also, using Valbazen. This is the only time I deworm without a fecal or other ways of visually checking their condition.

They have access to a creep feeder from week 1 on. They also have access to hay and loose minerals free choice.

If the kid is staying on the farm, they get a bottle right up til the does are dry. I just dried off my last doe, which put my 1 bottle kid weaned at 10 months of age! I have extra milk so I let the bottle kids use it up for me. 

When the kids are about 1 month old, they get put out with the rest of the herd. I still have the creep feeder set up for them, I just move it to the doe pen.

Up until this time, I have only used bottles to feed the kids. This year I am kidding out 14 goats, so I guess I will be needed to come up with a lamb bar or something similar!


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