# Anatolian LGD KILLED one goat, injured several others!



## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I have two Anatolian Shepherd dogs. One is a female and was in with the girls and kids pasture as she always seemed a little more docile. She had chased and played with the goats a little but nothing violent.

That all changed this morning. She killed one of my 2 month old kids and I could hear him screaming. He was dead when I got out there and she was guarding his body and the pile of hay that he was in from the other goats. It seemed that the dog didn't want any of the goats to eat their hay.

I noticed blood on a couple of others and then one that may end up losing and eye so this is not good. At least 5 have injuries from minor to serious from this incident. I just got her chained up outside the pasture and am probably going to end up putting her down. I don't really see any other option at this point. I am afraid I will find more injured goats now that I don't have to worry about her in the pasture and can look at the goats closer.

Why would a dog that has been good for 3 years suddenly flip? I have had her since a puppy and she has always been taken care of and never abused. Another friend of mine had a similar situation. She has been fed well and is up to date on any and all vaccinations that the vet suggested for an outdoor working dog. I have even increased her food ration by almost double since the onset of the colder weather so she isn't hungry. The dead kid wasn't eaten upon, just killed.

What is going on and is there any hope for this dog? I was ready to put her down if I couldn't get her caught and chained out of the goat pasture and still think this may be the only option. Should I try to keep her around or not? I think not. Any other option but to put her down?

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I know this just happened so I hate to put her down but this may be my only option. I am shocked and haven't had time to think it through.

Also, one of her offspring is in the boys' pasture. I haven't had any issues with him yet but the friend's dog who also had to be put down is the father of this one. I am now worried that he may also be a ticking time bomb.

What do you think? This is a bad situation.

Conor


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

If she were mine, I would put her down. Maybe others will disagree, but once a dog tastes goat meat and blood, that is the end. I am so sorry for your loss of the goat and the injuries. And, it won't be an easy decision about your dog, either.

Unfortunately, you will never be able to trust her again and it wouldn't be fair to sell/give her to another that may try to use her as a LGD. I believe that she signed her death warrant. Good luck to you on a very difficult decision.

Regarding the other dog, that is a tough one. I hope someone has a good idea for you. Did he see the other dog kill the kid? Is the male dog neutered? (whether that makes a difference of not, I do not know).


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm very sorry for this. Hopefully others will have more information for you. The only possibility I can think of is that the buckling was harassing/trying to breed the other goats and perhaps she saw him as a threat. The fact that she was guarding the body seems odd.

Are all three dogs that you mentioned purebred Anatolians from working lines?

I would not put her down until you have more time to assess the other goats and search the pen for anything out of the ordinary.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

The buckling wasn't trying to breed anyone. I think she was just picking on the smaller goats. The mother of the buckling is dehorned so had no way to defend herself or the baby. The dog also attacked a small pygmy doeling but that mother came to me still with her horns and was able save her baby from this. The baby is roughed up but seems ok overall. The mother is pretty beatup and bloody but looks OK overall. The other one is an almost adult pygmy doeling with the injured eye.

Several other goats have hair ripped off and minor bloody scratches. They are all nearly grown doelings too. None of the larger adult goats appear to be injured.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

The dogs were sold as working dogs. I know my dog came from a working goat farm where there were 100 or more Boer goats roaming with the dogs. She was just a puppy at the time. I asked my friend, the one who had the one who bred mine, and he was also from working lines and raised around goats and sheep.

Conor


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Is the dog behaving normally? (Like... no signs of rabies or some other toxin? drooling? unsteadiness?)

Is there anything weird in that pile of hay? A dead rodent?

You are likely going to have to euthanize her, but just trying to help you think through everything. Really tough decision about her and what to do with the son.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

She is acting normal except she was very skittish and didn't want to come to me like she knew she had done something bad. No other signs like bad food or rabies. Also she is up to date on all vaccinations. I will check the pile of hay. This hay was recently purchased so maybe there were odors of something included in the hay that might have led to this. Either way, I don't really feel I can keep her around.

Conor


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## kc8lsk (Jan 10, 2014)

Are your goats afraid of her! The reason I ask, is there any doubt in your mind that she is the one that killed the baby goat if there is no doubt Please don't take a chance she'll do it again, but if possibly she was guarding her from something else...


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I saw the end of the attack once I heard the goats screaming. I went outside and she had moved on to the other goats.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I put the hay out last night. I will see if anything like a dead/dried out mouse might have gotten into the bale.

Conor


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## kc8lsk (Jan 10, 2014)

If you saw her attacking your goats I'm sorry to say I would put her down and keep a good eye on her son for a long time or sell him into a pet home not as a lgd.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Even if she were trying to "protect" the goats from something bad in the hay, she should not have attacked them to do so! I have to agree that she signed her death warrant with the attack. I am so very sorry.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

In your first post you said she has chased and played with the goats but was never violent. An adult LGD should never chase or play with the stock. When they do that as puppies they must be correct and not left alone with the stock until they are past that behavior. Your dog was likely playing with the kid and things got out of hand. I doubt she meant to kill considering she guarded him after he died. Based on what you said I don't think she just snapped and started killing. That being said, she's not fit to be a LGD anymore. She could still be a family protector or family pet. I'd try to rehome her and only put her down if that's the only other option. This didn't come out of no where, the playing was a sign.


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

I agree with Ladysecret, a LGD should never chase of play with the livestock. It sounds like she was probably guarding the hay from the goats and it got out of control or if she isn't spayed she could be displaying aggression because of hormones. It's hard to say without knowing what started the incident


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Nothing is amiss with the hay I put out last night. I usually put out hay in small amounts in the morning and at night so they don't waste as much. It was 1/4 to 1/3 of a standard small square bale.

No more injuries to the goats and the one with the injured eye doesn't look as bad as the first assessment so that is good.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

The only other issue I can think of about this dog is that she killed one of my Guineas when they were first let out and nearly killed another but I stopped her. That one recovered although it was beaten up and bloody. No more problems with that as they roam all over including that pasture. The raccoons got another one.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Ok, I am still relatively new to this and still learning. I did correct her if the playing got too rough although I haven't seen this in quite a while. No idea what triggered it but have been told that this is not an easy dog to rehome once it is an adult and that the next owners will likely have bigger problems. I would make sure to have full disclosure but still don't want to go through with the hassle or potential liability issues when/if it turns on someone in the future.

Conor


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

My LGDs will kill moles, squirrels, armadillos, and rabbits (if they can catch them) but not kids, kittens, toads, or chicks. It all depends on what they were raised with. Killing guineas should not have caused her to want to kill kids.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I had a dog kill two of my babies, I know she was just trying to "play" with them and I believe they died of a heart attack or something, they were run to death. No blood at all but their necks were wet from her. I had to get rid of her right then, I did and she went in town to a beautiful family. Long story short but she saved their life after she was with them for only two weeks. Someone broke in the house. She ran and barked none stop at the Police that were there looking for a person in distress that the 911 call was dropped. Had she not done this the police would not of gotten to the lady and she would of bled to death, so she was set to be a city dog not a county dog.

So what I am trying to say is maybe she would be better off in town with a family. I know a lot of people that have them as pets in town.

All in all I am so sorry for your loss and all that you are going through.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

The baby was pretty much laid down and looked like the neck had been crushed. It wasn't bloody. The mother of the other doeling that got attacked and the goat with the injured eye are tied for the worst injuries. The dog must have bit into the jaw of the other mother as her mouth and nose are all bloody.

I would love to rehome but with my luck, I will end up getting sued because of that. My luck always seems to be along those lines. No good deed goes unpunished.


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

cwatkin said:


> Ok, I am still relatively new to this and still learning. I did correct her if the playing got too rough although I haven't seen this in quite a while. No idea what triggered it but have been told that this is not an easy dog to rehome once it is an adult and that the next owners will likely have bigger problems. I would make sure to have full disclosure but still don't want to go through with the hassle or potential liability issues when/if it turns on someone in the future.
> 
> Conor


Maybe you could contact a rescue organization nearby about rehoming her. They're usually equipped to address behavioral issues and can screen potential homes to find the right one (likely one without small children).

As far as liability goes, (and please don't take this as actual legal advice) if you fully disclose all relevant information to a potential new owner and they nonetheless agree to assume ownership of her, you really shouldn't have any problems legally. You could even have them sign a waiver if you wanted, but, generally speaking, unless your state has specific statutes or case law regarding expanded liability for transfer of personal chattels, then it's probably not an issue.

I'm very sorry you're going through this :hug:


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Although this has nothing to do with goats and dogs, I once dated a psychopath. Once I figured out what was going on, she baited and set a trap for me and ended up using the legal system as a weapon against me. I spent thousands on atty fees defending myself and am now very gunshy about the legal system. Had I not had this happen, I might be a little more willing to rehome. At this point I feel that my luck would have this come back and bite me, no pun intended.

Even if someone could let me know there is no liability for letting her go, someone could still sue and I would have to spend a bunch of money to defend myself. I am pretty jaded and cynical about our legal system after my experience. It is all about money and not what is right.

Conor


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

I'm sorry you had a such a terrible experience. Out of curiosity, what state are you in? I can only offer any advice for NC as I'm not licensed in any other state. Most Legal Aids will give you free advice on some issues over the phone. I still volunteer for a legal hotline for advice.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I am in Missouri. The woman used an alias, claimed to be divorced, and had a pre-paid phone number. Things didn't add up and I began to put things together. I figured out her real name and that she wasn't divorced but married to a U.S. Army CID agent who was on TDY in another state. Then things got real messy. She tried to steal my identity, erased my computer (I work on computers and was able to recover the data and do forensics on what she accessed).

Then she requested me not contact her and had this well documented through e-mail but put out that I had gotten her pregnant and of course I contacted her. Then I am served with an ex-parte order and have to go to court and fight a potential permanent restraining order. The problem is that unwanted contact is grounds for a restraining order even if it isn't threatening. They all count the same. I could have beat her to within inches of her life or simply had unwanted contact over a claimed pregnancy she then lied about once again. It all counts the same in a court of law and has the same impact on future issues such as gun ownership and employment. This woman was smart, vindictive, conniving, and knew EXACTLY what she was doing. She was using the legal system as a weapon and had things set up PERFECTLY to do so against me.

Tom Cotton, recent U.S. Senate elect in Arkansas, voted against this law when he was in a lower house. Of course his opponents had a field day with him voting against something called the "Violence Against Women Act" but he claimed the law was too vague and open to abuse. I admire the man for standing up to junk like this and would have gladly voted for him had I lived one state to the south.

I am $9000 poorer because of this incident. Putting the dog down humanely costs 50 cents or so. Unfortunately I would love to see this dog go to a good home but can't take the risk of a legal issue costing me this much or more. Someone getting hurt by a known dangerous dog would be way worse of a legal battle in my opinion.

Needless to say, I doubt I will ever be considered to serve on a jury after I vent when asked about my prior experiences with the court system.

Sorry to vent but the common thread between this experience and a possible case related to a dangerous dog is that they would all be heard in the same court system in which I have ZERO faith.

Conor


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

If she were mine I would find a non-farm home for her or send her to a rescue. Just because she killed another animal does not mean she will harm a human.

Also, the thing about a goat always being a killer once they taste goat meat/blood is not true. I feed raw meat to all my dogs, I feed all the bones, organ meats and scraps from the freezer camp goats. My Pyrs have never gone after my goats.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

My LGDs also get raw meat and bones.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Not sure if I saw this covered (I could have missed something) and sorry if it was but did you see her attacking the goats? Or could something have run off before you got there?


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## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

I'm sorry you have gone through all of this (as well as your relationship troubles..) I have an Anatolian who will kill and eat whatever duck/chicken or turkey that is dumb enough to get into his pasture. But he's great with the goats...I'm sure this is a heartbreaking situation. I would put him down also, but then I'd go have a good cry.


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## Cactus_Acres (Sep 24, 2013)

When I turned in a dog back to the humane society from which we got him just a week after we picked him out, I did a full disclosure on the reason we were turning him in. He killed one of our barn cats. I put down the exact reason on the form. I was in there a few weeks later to look at a different dog, and happened to mention how we were back in the market after that incident. The guy there said they found him a new home with someone who was very active and had no cats, and had been made aware of this. I would take the animal to the humane society. If after a certain amount of time they are unable to re home it successfully, they will put it down. Go through an actual humane society, not a rescue. Many rescues won't take direct releases of animals anyway, but will get them from shelters.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry. Ultimately you have to do what is best for you and your situation.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I think part of the problem was that she wanted to use the pile of hay as a bed and didn't like it when the other goats came to eat from it which was its intended purpose. She was still guarding the hay after I removed the dead buckling.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im so sorry...No matter the cause of her actions...I would no longer trust her...its very sad...but you dont know what is going on in her head...rehomeing is not an option IMO since again...what triggered her to attack, would she do it again? would she attack a child? my heart aches for you...what a hard position to be in...Saddly we have seen this way too often..But as Katen said...you have to do what is best for you....((hugs))


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

The decision has been made not to rehome. It was quick and she didn't suffer so that is what matters. I agree that is was a hard decision but I have seen rehoming go very badly in the past. I am sure there are plenty of good stories but one bad is all it takes.

Conor


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## Greybird (May 14, 2014)

'Hate to say it, but it sounds to me like she's already voided her own warranty. At the very least, spay her (if she isn't already) and re-home her, but culling her is also a perfectly viable option.

The LGDs have been carefully bred for untold ages to suppress their prey drive and to enhance their protective instincts, but who knows how many had to be culled during the process? 
If the prey drive resurfaces than all you have is another big dog that can't be trusted around livestock. The world is already overfilled with those and we really don't need any more of them.

Edit: typing at the same time.
I think you made a wise choice, even though it was hard.


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## christinajh (Jan 24, 2013)

I would have put her down as well. Rehoming sounds great on paper, but you really wouldn't have known where she would have ended up years down the line. Someone dies or something happens, and the information that she is a livestock killer doesn't get passed along with her. Someone comes along and thinks she's a LGD, and there you go she's back with livestock. Sorry you had such a rough day. http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Agreed! Rehoming sounds great on paper but in reality there could be all kinds of pitfalls. Also my luck seems to have it that if something can come back and bite me, it does. This, and my experience with the judicial system pretty much made the decision. ANYONE can sue for ANYTHING these days.

Also, I had to deal with several of the neighbors' dogs that they decided to rehome. They were all unwanted pitbulls and we are pretty sure they were getting them for free off craigslist and other similar classifieds sites. I had issues with them for years before they about took out several of the neighbors and the entire area began getting rid of them. The sad thing is that they were pretty much sealing the fate of these dogs. After losing pets and livestock and nearly being attacked, we pretty much shot them on sight. It is really bad when your own dog decides to do it.

Conor


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Personally I think you made the right choice..., I've seen so many dogs end up at a home, need to be rehomed months later, and the pattern goes on and on. I got a pit/lab mix 4 years ago she was 7 months old, and I was her 4th owner... We have had our moments, but got through them... 

Sorry you had to go through this..;(


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

cwatkin said:


> The decision has been made not to rehome. It was quick and she didn't suffer so that is what matters. I agree that is was a hard decision but I have seen rehoming go very badly in the past. I am sure there are plenty of good stories but one bad is all it takes.
> 
> Conor


Sorry about the whole situation. I'm sure that was very difficult to do. As others on here have, you not only lost a goat, but a dog as well. (And then you have the injured goats and the future of the other dog to consider as well).


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im very sorry you had to go through that...you made the best choice to humanly put her down..even so I know that must have been very hard...((hugs))


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## Cactus_Acres (Sep 24, 2013)

Neither decsion was the right or wrong one. You did right by your remaining animals.

I would not trust the other dog, as it comes from parents who have both snapped and gone after livestock.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Oh wow, I am so sorry, that is just awful  I have to say, I'd never trust a dog like that again, and since she is a working dog, she isn't a pet. If it were me, and seeing her attack them like that, I would have to have her put down. So sad  I hope the goats are able to recover, and the doe doesn't lose her eye.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

I, too, share the sorrow of this community at all you've gone thru with this situation. I can only imagine the horror you must have felt. 

We have a neighbor's dog that stalks our goats and chickens. I can no longer free-range my livestock because of him. Of course, the owner swears the dog never leaves his property. After he was trying to get into the chicken coop in broad daylight yesterday, we made the very difficult decision to take the next available shot. If it's this hard regarding a dog that's not my own, how difficult must your decision have been? 

We also have a female Anatolian/Pyr mix. She's awesome with the goats...but we watch her carefully as she's a chicken killer herself given the chance. She's young...only a year old. My prayer is that by keeping her well away from the poultry she'll settle out more as she continues to mature. (BTW -- she was the one which sounded the alert yesterday of the danger to the chickens! Good girl!)


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

top_goat said:


> I, too, share the sorrow of this community at all you've gone thru with this situation. I can only imagine the horror you must have felt.
> 
> We have a neighbor's dog that stalks our goats and chickens. I can no longer free-range my livestock because of him. Of course, the owner swears the dog never leaves his property. After he was trying to get into the chicken coop in broad daylight yesterday, we made the very difficult decision to take the next available shot. If it's this hard regarding a dog that's not my own, how difficult must your decision have been?
> 
> We also have a female Anatolian/Pyr mix. She's awesome with the goats...but we watch her carefully as she's a chicken killer herself given the chance. She's young...only a year old. My prayer is that by keeping her well away from the poultry she'll settle out more as she continues to mature. (BTW -- she was the one which sounded the alert yesterday of the danger to the chickens! Good girl!)


My pit/lab mix killed one of my chickens. I was told by a neighbor to tie the dead chicken around her neck. I thought it was odd, but I did it. Kept it on her for a day, and she has not chased, or killed any chickens since...


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## christinajh (Jan 24, 2013)

My dogs would just eat the dead chicken off their necks, but they don't go after the live chickens. They aren't allowed to roam unless supervised though because both my dogs would "herd" the goats to death through the fence line.


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## eqstrnathlete (Mar 16, 2013)

My dogs would maul any of my animals given the chance. From chickens, to horses, to goats. Therefore I must be very careful.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Anything with pitbull in it seems to be a ticking time bomb from what I can tell. I lost goats to this because of my inconsiderate neighbors early on and nearly came under attack myself. Of course the neighbors deny that it is their dogs but we always saw them in their yard. Multiple calls to law enforcement just informed us to shoot on sight and that is what finally had to happen. Let's just say I didn't feel too bad about taking care of this problem after coming outside after an attack and finding on of my sweetest goats dead with a crushed neck. The pitbull seems to have a chip on its shoulder and be aggressive by nature from what I can see.

Although that problem has been taken care of, I now have 1080P digital security cameras recording my property because of theft issues that have happened nearby. I just went and reviewed all the footage from a camera covering the location where I found the kid and got some pretty vicious attacks by my dog on the goats recorded yesterday morning. If I had known this was happening, I would have done something sooner. I am pretty sure the fatal attack was captured but that happened right where a ray of the sun overpowered the camera sensor (it is facing due east) although she may have run the kid into the fence at a high speed and broken its neck. There are several minutes of her running several of the goats and attacking a dark colored kid. Both kids of this size are dark colored and both were attacked but I suspect this is it.

The location with the other dog doesn't have good camera coverage but I am going to change that. They seem to know how to behave when they know someone is watching but flip a switch when they think they are not being observed.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

On a good note, the two more seriously injured goats are doing MUCH better. I think the one with the hurt eye is going to be fine. It was just very swollen in the area of the attack and looked far worse than it was. The other one had lots of blood but looks better today.

Conor


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

OP, I'm glad your injured goats are doing better.

I'd keep an eye on your other dog by using your security cameras. My LGD book recommend observing young dogs with the stock without them knowing your watching to make sure they are not chasing/playing with them after you leave. They are smart enough to behave while your around and them start ruff housing when your gone. The book said this was the final test that they have to pass before they can be trusted alone with the stock full time. I wouldn't condemn your guy just because his parents proved untrustworthy but I wouldn't turn a blind eye either. This is the reason why LGDs should only be bred after they've proven themselves mentally and physically as excellent examples of their breed. I'm sorry you, your goats, and your dog had to go through this awful experience.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I know a lady who raises lgd's. She puts bells on their collars. That way she can tell without looking if they are chasing something


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Conor, I'm glad your goats are doing better. I hope they have a full recovery for you. Again, sorry you had to go through all of this. Nothing easy about the situation and I applaud you for making decisions and following through with them.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Conor. I firmly believe you made the right decision. I have rehomed dogs before, but I KNEW they were going to homes that would work for them. I have one right now that will never leave here as she is not a candidate for rehoming or rescue (a rescue will put her down) It is never an easy decision regardless. Sure hope your goats recover quickly


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Thanks. I will definitely be setting up a security camera to focus on the pasture covered by the other dog and definitely watch him. It seems that the other dog definitely knew to behave when I was there and acted totally different when I was not but the camera was.

He won't be in with the babies, that is for sure.

Conor


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## greenfield (Apr 5, 2012)

Thank you for sharing your story. I have one female Anatolian that is two. She took a long time to become responsible. Goats will kid in about a month so I will treat her as a pup and only let her in with them under supervision. Again, thank you for your story.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Im so sorry this happened 
IMO , i would put the dog down and not breed that line again. If it makes you feel better , put the other one down too and you won't have the worry about finding another horrific incident. It could well be the line. Its very sad and i hate to say this , but these dogs have a job to do first and for most and a death cannot happen like this , period.
I personally couldnt and wouldn't trust them at all again . If they can be pets with you or somewhere else and not have contact with other animals , then so be it , but their time as a LGD is over. Just my two cents. You just can't or shouldn't take a chance with these dogs , you will never forgive yourself if it happened again.

I have no experience with LGDs , but maybe ask around and find a new line that has pups from well known and proven dogs if you do want to start over with new dogs. Good luck to you and i hope the injured goats recover quickly for you ..


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Sorry , i didn't read the whole thread before posting…..oops.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

lottsagoats1 said:


> If she were mine I would find a non-farm home for her or send her to a rescue. Just because she killed another animal does not mean she will harm a human.
> 
> Also, the thing about a goat always being a killer once they taste goat meat/blood is not true. I feed raw meat to all my dogs, I feed all the bones, organ meats and scraps from the freezer camp goats. My Pyrs have never gone after my goats.


I agree with that but the part about tasting blood once , they become a killer , thats simply not true . But feeding raw has nothing to do with kiling. The thrill of the kill or the chase or the reaction to a action is what drives them to do it again.But not all the time of course , they are all individuals&#8230;.
Good for you to feed raw ! There is no other diet better for dogs IMO :thumb:


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## teejae (Jan 21, 2013)

Oh how sad and awful. we once had a Maremma male who was aggressive to the goats he was reared with. It started when the older does would butt him and had stood on his tail.So we had torn ears and one even had her mouth torn badly that the Vet stitched her up. That was the last straw and I had bought a female dog who was much less aggressive. At one stage I had to use a muzzle on the male which worked quite well and didnt lock him in with the goats overnight letting him patrol the property. It worked quite well and he died of old age.I then purchased another Female Maremma,had her spayed and havnt had any troubles since. One again we let her into the house yard at night as I always lock the goats in their yards at night for their safety so dont see the need to put our dog in there with them,Teejae


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## darkbloom52 (Nov 9, 2013)

I strongly urge you NOT to put your other dog down and am saddened that you made the difficult choice of putting down one. I do a lot of work with dog rescue and there are many reputable rescues out there that may be able to help re-home your dog or keep him/her at a sanctuary. Reputable rescues have insurance and will take ownership so you are not liable for anything that happens after you give the dog up. Dogs are vetted by the rescues to make sure they understand behavioral or medical issues and personality traits. I just did a quick search and after a couple of seconds I found this organization: http://www.nasrn.com/
If you or ANYONE needs help re-homing a dog, please contact me. I'll do my best to help you.


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## Bunty (Mar 22, 2014)

Put the dog down straight away. Chasing goats was the first sign of a livestock worrier! The chasing progresses to attacking and killing - not just small goats! I have lost a lot of sheep, 20 + and a large billy, to dogs! The chase is what turns dogs on in the first place. Could be your neighbours livestock next and doubt they will hesitate to shoot your dog

Very sorry to sound so hard, very heart breaking for you!


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## Wyatt (Oct 9, 2014)

If it were me I would have shot the dog on the spot if I saw her attacking livestock. In the past I might have done what you did but I've had a LOT of problems with neighbor dogs killing livestock and tried about everything, including taking them to court over it and nothing stopped their negligence in keeping their animals, whether pets or livestock, under control. Fines, jail time etc, nothing seems to put sense into some people's heads when it comes to children (had other problems with neighbor kids racing motorcycles and cutting down trees on my property and have been threatened with even violence by their parents when I chased them off and posted no trespassing signs resulting in more court and parents going to jail as well) and pets and I ended up with the loss of my livestock which became a pretty hefty financial and emotional burden. I was told by animal control to shoot offending dogs but only if they were in the process of committing the act, and then call animal control, press charges and take them to court to recoup the losses, even if you don't want to. When people lose their pet, then half to pay a fine or go to jail after repeated offenses they start thinking twice about letting their dogs run loose. Long story short I've had to shoot a half dozen of my neighbors pets, which I hated to do, and am not very popular around here but the dog problems stopped, I had no choice, tried everything before I resorted to this path, they have nobody but themselves to blame and I don't feel bad about them one bit, I gave them every chance and they didn't give a hoot about my huge losses or the fact that their negligence caused me the loss of life of many times what they lost. I don't hesitate to shoot any dog attacking my livestock now, not even my own, its unpleasant but necessary in my case at least and I can't afford to let others destroy my livelihood for whatever reason they think they have just becasue they seem to have a sense of entitlement to let their dogs trespass on my property destroying things. Trespassing Livestock is a bit trickier when it comes to the law unfortunately, but I've had those problems too

AS for the psychopath, your story sounds a lot like a situation I have here except I didn't fall for any of her traps. I avoided her as much as possible when I found out she was married (and crazy) but She would come around at all hours of the nigh screaming banging on my doors and breaking in so I got a restraining warrant and had her arrested a few times. Now she doesn't come on my property but she still constantly calls day and night, even though I've changed my number a number of times, though the numbers are unlisted or listed under fictitious names. She also drives by and honks etc. If I go into town I run into her where she makes a scene or calls me up and leaves a message, I monitor my calls all the time now, telling me where I've been. I'm told the only thing I can do is sue for harassment at this point but I've done that in the past and it didn't help. Sometimes I wish she would cross the line a little too far but she seems to know to stop just short of me being able to do much about it If you managed to get rid of this woman I would say count your blessings even if it did cost you some cash because, even though my stalker didn't manage to pull off pressing charges against me, my problems with her are still here with no signs of letting up after 6 years. Being able to move on is worth quite a lot believe me.

I like Ohio but I didn't have any of these problems before I moved here

Sorry about your situation but its part of the game unfortunately, All you can do is learn from your experiences and try to learn enough to progressively make things better. With your other dog, I'd try re homing him as a pet or non-livestock guard before putting him down. He hasn't done anything wrong and though he might be a risk you can't afford to take with your livestock he deserves a chance in a less risky environment. If you don't think he should be bred neuter him. His parents' problems might be partly hormonal in which case they might not surface if he's neutered

The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget. 
*Thomas Szasz*,


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I have no plans to do anything with the other dog (offspring of attackers) except to watch him closely for signs of aggression. I think that rehoming a dog with known aggressive tendencies can end up badly. Unfortunately I had to deal with this because of some neighbors who essentially hoarded unwanted dogs that formed vicious packs that attacked one of my dogs, killed a cat, several goats, and nearly got me several times. I also ended up talking with several police, fire fighters, EMTs, and other people who work in the emergency services and they of course don't approve as they see the end results of dog aggression all too often. One guy went to investigate a dog attack that killed a 3 year old girl and when he got there, the kid looked just like his own daughter.

The funny thing I have been capturing on camera is that the bucks are humping the other dog on a regular basis. He just stands there and doesn't seem to care so I guess this is a good sign.

Conor


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I agree rehoming a dog with aggression issues is not a good idea at all.
But aggression towards animals doesn't necessarily mean they will attack people. This dog may not be fit for being a LGD , but can very well be a good house dog without other animals…..just saying.
But i do agree that sometimes its easier to end the problem right there so as not to have any repercussions later…..i do get that. 
After reading all the stories on here , sometimes its best to end the dogs life and prevent any future suffering of other animals including the dogs.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Wyatt, your problem with the neighbor dogs sounds very similar to mine. Multiple calls to the law as well as 6-7 neighbors from within a mile radius of these people all going in to the Sheriff Dept. to make a joint complaint didn't really do too much. Other people were experiencing losses and threats similar to me. Parents couldn't let their kids outside to play because no one ever knew when a vicious pitbull would chase down their kids. I tried every angle including the game/wildlife officials as the dogs were killing deer and turkey too. The owners weren't hunting them with the dogs so this was classified as just an accident like hitting one with your car. Law enforcement pretty much said the only option was to shoot the dogs as they went to the peoples' house and they denied it was their dogs causing the problems.

It all started with everyone shooting the dogs. The problem was you would shoot 1-2 dogs and they would replace them with 5 more. It became a war of attrition and more of the neighbors began shooting as the population of the problem pack increased. Cattle on other farms were being run/attacked and people were losing their pets (cats and other dogs) to the pack. The people responded by changing the times they let their dogs out. They either let them out in the middle of the night (sometime around 3-4 AM) as well as during the day when most people are at work. My schedule is highly variable and unpredictable and I bring lots of work home so I was home many times during the day when the dogs came home and was ready. I also teach night classes from time to time and nearly got attacked while opening my gate coming home at like 10:30 PM at my gate when it was pitch black outside and I couldn't see the dogs coming. I also installed game cams and then motion sensors to get an idea of when they were coming through and would be ready. The 3-4 AM time was very consistent so got up and waited a few times to get some of them.

Between me and the others, the people were continually losing these dogs and finally kept like 2-3 under control as they figured out this wasn't working. The sad apart is that they basically guaranteed that any dog they took in would be killed because of their violent/aggressive nature. 

I know that losing goats to other dogs biased my decision about what to do with my dog. I also have neighbors with livestock and didn't want to cause them the problems that my other neighbors did with their dogs. I also feel that an aggressive animal may be unpredictable and turn on someone at any time so it is a risk. Unfortunately there are too many unwanted animals in this world and many of the good ones end up being put down because there aren't enough people to adopt them. I personally think it is better to let these animals find a home rather than one with known aggression.

As for your relationship issues, if you were a woman and this person were a man, they would probably be in jail. The courts are so biased against men in these situations it isn't even funny. Yeah, I was able to at least move on with this one and now have a normal non-psycho GF. I used to see her sitting in her car idling at places I would be but haven't seen her in quite a while. Trust me I am still somewhat on guard as this is someone who would run me over. I got threatening phone calls and e-mails from her for a while afterwards too. Of course the legal system didn't seem to care about my problems, just the fact I contacted her in a non-threatening way.

I guess the good news is that in MO you can shoot a threatening animal without issue so the legal system isn't all bad.

Conor


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> My pit/lab mix killed one of my chickens. I was told by a neighbor to tie the dead chicken around her neck. I thought it was odd, but I did it. Kept it on her for a day, and she has not chased, or killed any chickens since...


I've heard that advice...I'd be willing to try it if I could catch her, but she grabs at a dead run and then goes deep into the woods with her trophy! It's been over six months since the last one though, because I keep her in the large doe pen unless she's out on a lead with me. Sad but effective.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

top_goat said:


> I've heard that advice...I'd be willing to try it if I could catch her, but she grabs at a dead run and then goes deep into the woods with her trophy! It's been over six months since the last one though, because I keep her in the large doe pen unless she's out on a lead with me. Sad but effective.


Well at least it's been awhile since she's done it... My dog can't run with the goats, I won't allow it. I use an invisible dog fence that's well not so invisible..LOL... If I had an LGD I would train, but this girl is so unpredictable, but we had her before the goats.. She will let me know if something is going on with them though, which is good;-)


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I have an invisible fence setup put away somewhere and am thinking about putting it around the area where I feed the goats and putting it on the dog. The other dog love to wolf down his food and then head over to the goat food and chow down on it. I try to stop this but sometimes get distracted or have to leave and can't stick around until all the food is gone.

Conor


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## Bunty (Mar 22, 2014)

I would shoot the dog, once it has the taste of worrying any livestock it will not stop. Very hard and heartbreaking!! I know that a dog that worries livestock will chase and attack a human eventually. Dogs must be kept on leads near livestock - it's your fault if your dog worries livestock not the livestock owners!


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Agreed! Me and the other neighbors have eliminated the loose dog problem around here.

Conor


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I was caring for my sister's dog - a mutt who almost killed a chicken. Had it in her mouth and everything. She was rehomed to a place where she was the only pet (my grandparents'). She hasn't been aggressive at all, and is a very fat and happy dog now, lol!

I'm not saying this will be the case, but in the end dogs ARE predators, no matter how we try to breed them out of it. If this has happened in your dogs' bloodlines before, I would rehome any dog with those bloodlines and seek a different line, or a different mode of protection. I wouldn't want that trait in a livestock guardian, but if she is good with people I would seek out a rescue with a canine behavioralist and see if they would be willing to assess her, train her, and rehome her. A lot of rescues have behavioralists who are able to see if a dog will be safe with people.

Did you take her to a vet? It's grasping at straws, but I've heard of brain swelling causing behavioral changes. But it sounds like from your original post that she already had some interest in chasing, which shows a bit of a prey drive.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

She had chased in the past and I stopped her several times. I think she just lost control and went nuts this time. No, I didn't take her to the vet. After watching the video from the security camera, I didn't hesitate to take care of the problem. She acted like she had done nothing wrong when I went out.

The other dog is going to stay with the bucks as they will fight back.

Conor


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Ah, I'm sorry I didn't see that. Hoping all goes well with your remaining dog. :thumb:


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Before I bought this land and got my goats, I had the most wonderful German Shepherd. He loved to go with me to my friend's farm, but was never allowed to chase any of the animals. 

As he aged, he developed a spinal bridge. (it was incredibly painful and began to paralyze him, eventually leading to the very difficult decision to euthanize.) One day we were at the farm, and this one rooster was really acting up. Before I knew it, "Romeo" had it in his mouth! But the amazing thing was, that's all he did! He just laid down with it held in his mouth as if to say, "You've gotten on my last nerve. You need a time out!" 

One time we fostered a kid for my friend -- she just had too many at that time! Romeo became the surrogate to little "Noah" and was absolutely incredible! 

Don't know, but I have to conclude he just had an incredible temperament ('course, I already knew that!) and -- had he been raised around livestock, probably would have made a great ranch dog! Would I could find this mix of intelligence and temperament again! As good as my current LGD's are...they're no "Romeo"!


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