# Newborn Kids dying rapidly. Help!



## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Okay a bit of background. We took over my grandpas goat farm a little over 2 years ago. He’s only had it 10 years, and it’s grown MASSIVELY the past few years. (He had about 6-8 head for a few years, now we have 80) moms are due now. About 50 pregnant nannies. Here’s where we are now 

Birthing started 3 days ago 
10 nannies birthed so far
13 alive as of now. Perfect condition. 
7 dead. 

Just laying down limp out of nowhere. Not getting up, after we’ve watched them nurse several times and walk. Full bellies. Etc. just dying.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Sorry you've lost so many. 

Have you checked any temps? What are they getting for minerals? Can you get a necropsy or two done?


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Sorry you've lost so many.
> 
> Have you checked any temps? What are they getting for minerals? Can you get a necropsy or two done?


I have not gotten any temperatures, I need to do that. As far as minerals go, we have several mineral blocks out at all times in the past year. I will add, that in January this year this happened also. Lost half as many babies as were born. We paid to have two necropsys done and were told they didn't find anything. The babies that died then, died the same way the babies are dying now. And we have no idea what is going on. We live in West Texas. The weather has been incredibly dry this year. So we have tried to stay on top of food, hay, minerals etc. and we have given dewormer on a pretty good schedule.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Amcculler14 said:


> I have not gotten any temperatures, I need to do that. As far as minerals go, we have several mineral blocks out at all times in the past year. I will add, that in January this year this happened also. Lost half as many babies as were born. We paid to have two necropsys done and were told they didn't find anything. The babies that died then, died the same way the babies are dying now. And we have no idea what is going on. We live in West Texas. The weather has been incredibly dry this year. So we have tried to stay on top of food, hay, minerals etc. and we have given dewormer on a pretty good schedule.


See that's how my results were too but then I noticed they did a liver analysis and did not see what the selenium levels were........if you still have the results see what all they listed on that and maybe we can see what might be missing if there is anything. 
Also check the dams udder, make sure they are actually giving milk and also no heat or lumps. Did they act hungry at all? Seem to be nursing more then the healthy ones? I wouldn't imagine that many does wouldn't produce enough milk for their kids but I guess it could happen


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Are kids all dried off & in draft free stall? When their body temp goes below 100 they cannot digest colostrum.
Loose minerals are better than blocks. Do pregnant does get BoSe shortly before kidding?
You could be dealing with several different issues here that can contribute to the mortality rate.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Are all kids born LIVE and then die within days or are some kids born weak or dead?


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

SalteyLove said:


> Are all kids born LIVE and then die within days or are some kids born weak or dead?


These 7 were born alive. A few seemed weaker than usual, but all were seen standing and nursing


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

nancy d said:


> Are kids all dried off & in draft free stall? When their body temp goes below 100 they cannot digest colostrum.
> Loose minerals are better than blocks. Do pregnant does get BoSe shortly before kidding?
> You could be dealing with several different issues here that can contribute to the mortality rate.


They do get cleaned and dried and we have a barn. We do not have BoSe. I've been fighting for an Rx since last birthing season and my research led me to believe we needed it


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yikes that's a tough one - doesn't match up with any of the usual culprits such as selenium deficiency, iodine deficiency, or some of the common infections.

I'm so sorry the January necropsies were not helpful. 

What exactly are you feeding the pregnant and lactating does on a daily basis?

I agree you would benefit from switching to loose minerals and not de-worming the herd on a schedule but it's hard to say if either of those management are contributing to this. 

Do any of your does have difficult or long kiddings and slow to pass afterbirth? 

Are you positive the kids are getting colostrum when they nurse? Usually you can see a bit at the corners of their mouths? Have you felt that the udders are not hard or hot and that their is flow from all teats?

If it were my herd I would probably be throwing the book at them and treating blindly - I know that's not necessarily good practice and can be costly, but at this point you have lost a LOT of kids/income. Personally, I'd get out there and give every pregnant and lactating doe LA-200 for 5 days and a Bo-Se injection (or oral selenium gel) as soon as possible. I realize this is an enormous undertaking (my herd is only 25-30) but I'm just telling you what I would probably try. I would also drive right down to your local feed store and get a bag of loose minerals (goat or cattle formulas - we can name you specific brands if you want) and start offering those free choice today. Also ask if they sell 50lb bags of Kelp meal.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with deficiency possibility or not getting enough milk to keep warm.
How is the mom's milk, any of them have mastitis or congested udder?
Teat plugs checked just after the kids were born to ensure milk flow is there?

Floppy kid syndrome comes to mind.
Where they at least 3 days old?


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> I agree with deficiency possibility or not getting enough milk to keep warm.
> How is the mom's milk, any of them have mastitis or congested udder?
> Teat plugs checked just after the kids were born to ensure milk flow is there?
> 
> ...


Not many, some last season were, but this week they've been closer to 24 hours

Definitely need to check moms better


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

What can you tell about your adult does, any random symptoms come to mind? Coughing, mastitis rates, nasal discharge, etc?


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

How cold is it there, & are you finding them dead in the morning? Cold might have contributed to the deaths in January for sure.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Kath G. said:


> What can you tell about your adult does, any random symptoms come to mind? Coughing, mastitis rates, nasal discharge, etc?


We haven't noticed anything with the moms this go around 
They all seem healthy


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

catharina said:


> How cold is it there, & are you finding them dead in the morning? Cold might have contributed to the deaths in January for sure.


It just got cold last night, 38 and about 42 today. But to this point this week it's been 60 low, 80 High. Not very wintery

But in January it was definitely cold


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

Are most of them dying in the first 24-48 hours? If so, and the necropsies didn't find any infections, I would be strongly leaning toward hypothermia.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

SundewFarms said:


> Are most of them dying in the first 24-48 hours? If so, and the necropsies didn't find any infections, I would be strongly leaning toward hypothermia.


Yes that's when most are dying now, and most last season. Only 4 or 5 died after 3 days last season.

We will get more vigilant with moving the moms and babies into stalls


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

Are these Boers? I ask because one year my minerals went dry more often than I knew and I had a LOT of congested udders or low milk production, I only had issues with the Boers though not my dairy, so not really sure why that was. The next year I made extra extra sure they always had a good loose goat mineral 24/7 and had no problems with congested udders or poor production. Later I learned lack of minerals can contribute to congested udders. So good quality alfalfa and 24\7 minerals and hope for the best!


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

lovinglife said:


> Are these Boers? I ask because one year my minerals went dry more often than I knew and I had a LOT of congested udders or low milk production, I only had issues with the Boers though not my dairy, so not really sure why that was. The next year I made extra extra sure they always had a good loose goat mineral 24/7 and had no problems with congested udders or poor production. Later I learned lack of minerals can contribute to congested udders. So good quality alfalfa and 24\7 minerals and hope for the best!


Yes!!! We are 90% Boer, 100% babies who died last season & now are Boer. Our Lamancha, Fainting, and Spanish nannies have had NO issues with their babies


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

How much BoSe? 
I have a neighbor with some we can have


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Bose is 1cc per 40 lbs. Boer kids can have a half cc & that can be given orally.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

Sorry to hear about your very sad issue.
I'm new here and to goats, so sorry if my comments are off the mark.

It sounds like a herd issue, not a specific goat problem. Would udder problems not be more of an individual goat thing? I would think that feed or disease would be the first things to consider. If there was a significant change in feed about a year ago, than that might be worth looking into.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Hmmmm, Boers tend to require more copper than those other breeds in my experience. Are you able to post photos of a few of your does so we can see if they look copper deficient?

Glad you were able to get Bo-Se! Hope that helps 

Mike - yes in most cases udder issues would be specific to individual animals however some particularly virulent bacterial strains can be contagious. In addition, selenium deficiency can result in low milk production that may be widespread.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

SalteyLove said:


> In addition, selenium deficiency can result in low milk production that may be widespread.


Wouldn't a sudden selenium deficiency have to come from a change in feed?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> Wouldn't a sudden selenium deficiency have to come from a change in feed?


No, most of their selenium is coming from mineral supplements. Feed is a very small portion. But it is cumulative so yes an earlier diet change or mineral supplement change may have take months to see I'll effects.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

But it doesn’t really sound like it is a sudden change, OP had the same issue in January as well. 
I agree with saltey if you can post some pics of the does someone can let you know if they look like they need some copper. Selenium I swear is the devil when there is a deficiency. I believe I had a selenium issue last year as well as another breeder swears they once had the same symptoms even though it wasn’t text book signs. I believe it was Toth who also had a whole other set of issues with selenium deficiency and again wasn’t the symptoms you read about.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Gosh, this sounds very frustrating. I am also leaning towards the line of a mineral deficiency.

Try to find a good loose mineral instead of blocks for them. We have several threads discussing minerals and types. Look for a one high in copper and selenium. I personally use a cattle mineral, so check those out too. (I will attach a picture of what I am using to give you an idea of levels to look for. I am in a very selenium deficient area, but do not give supplemental selenium besides these minerals and a selenium salt block. So far my goats are doing great on this.)

Do some research on copper bolusing here. https://www.wormx.info/copper-oxide-wire-particles . This website in general is very good for goat health/worming info.

Another idea to maybe help you narrow down if it is a mineral deficiency, and what mineral it might be...Do you have a wether, or doe that you could butcher for necropsy? Or at least a liver mineral test. (http://waddl.vetmed.wsu.edu/search-tests) I am hoping to run one of these every year or two on the wethers we butcher, just to get an idea of where we are sitting mineral wise.

Last thought for now, what is your herd's CAE status? CAE can cause hard, conjested udders and/or mastitis. I don't see if you have checked moms for milk availability or udder hardness/softness, but if they are having udder issues, it may be the cause.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice by all.

I did have selenium deficiency issues. 
We went from drought to flooding last winter and I couldn't keep their minerals available to them, they broke the PVC tube feeder, when I put minerals in the barn in a container, they would walk on or poo in it. It was horrible. That was the cause of so many problems and losses, they didn't get selenium or other minerals needed. I dodn't think to give them Bo-se 1 month before kidding, dumb on my part. 

Now that winter weather gives us a nice break in between raining times, I can have their minerals out and they are eating the minerals really well, so now I do not know if I should give the bo-se 1 month before kidding or wait and see approach. It is so confusing, the what to do's.


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