# CL in goats



## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I've recently started testing my herd for CL and Johnes. I previously only tested for CAE yearly as I never had symptoms of the other two. This past October after getting my goats back from a 5 month lease to another farm for the milk and my transitioning from renting to owning my own home, I noticed a couple showed with abcesses a month or so later. No goats have been on the property I am now and was sitting vacant for 5 years previously with no barns etc. I finally had the money to test this past week. I tested 17 of my 25 and got those results back and sent the other 7 (#8 is too young) blood samples out today. I have confirmed 13 out of 17 positive for CL, 2 marginal, and 2 negative. I'm devastated. Many of these I've had since birth or very young. I need advice. I don't own a gun to put them down nor do I have enough property to dispose of them if I did. I also have 14 still pregnant and due to kid. I need to know these things:

1. Kids that have nursed on Mom's without abcesses, can they be infected?
2. Babies being born, what is the likelihood they would have it if pulled immediately?
3. Do you seem it "morally unfair" to send them to an auction in hopes of getting something to offset my loss?

I am so very heartbroken right now. I cannot even fathom how hard it will be to have them all put down or gone. Any advice is appreciated.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

First I am so very sorry! I can not tell you how sorry I really am. 
1. It is the pus in the abscess that is infectious. How did you handle the goats with the abscesses? Did you part them into another pen until the abscess had bursted and healed? If not then where they were when this Happened is going to be a contagious pen for the babies no matter if the does have abscess now (or when kids are born) or not. 
2. Well here’s the thing. So mom has baby and no abscess. If she does get a abscess say 2 weeks into nursing the kids she gets a abscess. Those kids are going to be very imprinted onto their dam and very hard or impossible to take a bottle. Now that’s worse case. Dam may not get a abscess at all! And she can raise those kids just fine. Personally I think if I was in your shoes and any kids I absolutely wanted to keep I would pull those ones after they get their colostrum.
3. No! The animal is NOT a waste. The meat is still good. Yes there are ones that argue they will not eat a CL positive goat and that’s fine BUT that still doesn’t mean that the meat is not ok. There are also those that don’t have a care in the world if they have a CL positive here. Most of which are actually meat breeders. You can have them announce they are CL positive, but not to sound rude but most people who shop at the sale yard for breeding stock are not concerned over it, the other shoppers are butcher. But honestly, and this is MY OPINION, I would rather my animals loss of life be to feed someone then just putting in the ground.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Thankyou. This is pretty devastating to me. I have a plan in place to prevent babies being born from getting it. I do usually pull babies immediately anyway at birth for sociability reasons and feed cow milk/kid replacer. There are four currently on their dams that refused a bottle and I didn't have the time to fight them. Two of those dams were marginal. I have decided to hold onto those babies till they can be tested at 6 months or I see an abcess whichever comes first. The other three I currently have are bottle kids from birth and in their own pen/building completely away from other goats/soil etc. I have 14 does supposed to kid still between now and end of April and two in July. I had a guy on fb (I listed the ones ready to go now for meat) and once he private messaged me he asked if they were tested and I told him yes and positive for CL and he says I can take them for you and dispose of them but not paying and you taking them to an auction or allowing someone else to is morally unfair to expose other animals.  I thought auctions moved diseased animals all the time and you shouldn't buy from there for pets and breeding stock unless you don't care? I cannot feasibly get nothing for these animals, I need that just put into now building on a different part of my property in hopes of getting more clean animals later.


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## HungryFox (Feb 6, 2020)

I'm so sorry you have this problem.
We ended up with 2 diseased goats from what I thought was a trusted source. As that was a good relationship, I was at least able to sell back to them. One of the goats was then taken to auction. I can only pray she found a good pet life. She was a beautiful, sweet little thing with no meat to her.
I then had an incident with using potentially infected milk for some kids in need. I now have to wait 4 more months and hope, even if they're infected, no one else is :'(

I struggle with the same choices. Morals are challenging things.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Sorry to hear of your struggles as well. It's so frustrating. I've already contacted the people supposed to be buying the babies already on the ground and told them I can't sell till I test at 6 months now. I will not do that to someone else. My big question right now is, sending diseased animals to auctions with intent to be sold as meat..is that no acceptable? What are my other options? I have no ability to shoot and bury or shoot and burn here. Not this many.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

rebelINny said:


> Sorry to hear of your struggles as well. It's so frustrating. I've already contacted the people supposed to be buying the babies already on the ground and told them I can't sell till I test at 6 months now. I will not do that to someone else. My big question right now is, sending diseased animals to auctions with intent to be sold as meat..is that no acceptable? What are my other options? I have no ability to shoot and bury or shoot and burn here. Not this many.


First off.... i am so so sorry! Did the dairy you had them out not tell you about this before they went? Or do they not know?

Do you have a local hispanic population? I ask this not to be ugly but they will buy meat goats.

Me personally i would never take an animal to auction with a contagious disease. Yes they can be eaten but not all that go are going to do that. Cl can also pass species too. So the moral dilema is this..... are you ok with a buyer buyying them and not knowing and infecting their herd? Yes at an auction it is a toss up amd hope for the best kinda thing i understamd.

Also a halal butcher shop..... they may buy them. Ours here gets theirs from the auction but you know they are going straight for meat.

As far as kids. Pull them at birth. No colostrum nothing. If the dam has internal cl it can be in that udder. Making the chance of the kid getting it more likely. So stock up on colostrum replacer.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm prepared with colostrum replacer, as I do this usually anyway. I see your point on the auction, I guess people have differing views what they are for. Growing up they were for culls, to get rid of. I'm at my whits end at the moment. I want to get rid of the ones that can go now but not sure what to do with them. I've turned down buyers that wanted them for breeding already as I won't sell them for that.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

And the dairy did NOT inform me of the CL issue wether they knew or didn't know I'm not sure myself. We don't have a huge population of Hispanic in my area no. I'll have to check about other ethnic groups if they would take them.


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## HungryFox (Feb 6, 2020)

Here, Indian populations are really interested in cheap goats for meat. Perhaps?


I would want to hold the dairy responsible before I considered auction.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I would bet you $100 that guy that was going to do you a favor and dispose of them either A. Was going to eat them or B. Take them to the sale and make money or C. Sell them as meat. Don’t give them to him. I’m sorry, could be wrong, but that has “I’m going to screw your over” written all over his offer. 
I’m trying to tread lightly here because this is a very debatable topic that can get very much heated. But if you do find it unmoral to take to the sale with them announcing they are positive then put a add up on CL for butcher goats and explain why. Just know that you might still get buyers that do not care one way or the other. Heck just last month I was shocked someone posted a goat for sale on FB. It was all honest and laid out on the table, she is positive and has the scars to prove it. She was a NICE wether bred doe, I’ll hand them that but I was shocked that she didn’t just sell, or sell at market value, she sold for a LOT of money! No way was someone taking her home and eating her. The point of my story though is you can try all you want for your animals to not go into a breeding situation but it’s not guaranteed that it won’t happen. All you can do is be honest and if someone doesn’t fully understand what that means try to explain it to them.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

rebelINny said:


> And the dairy did NOT inform me of the CL issue wether they knew or didn't know I'm not sure myself. We don't have a huge population of Hispanic in my area no. I'll have to check about other ethnic groups if they would take them.


 Ethnicities from sandy places will eat goat regularly usually. Muslims, Indians.

I know you are super stressed hon! I had one single lady and it broke somethin in me.... one. I cannot imagine nearly my whole herd. Like jessica said... dont give them to the man who offered. If it comes to it ask another farmer neighbor to dig you a hole and do it for you. But that guy just sounds like he is tryin snooker you.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

HungryFox said:


> Here, Indian populations are really interested in cheap goats for meat. Perhaps?
> 
> I would want to hold the dairy responsible before I considered auction.


Unfortunately I don't know if I can do that. It's a young girl and her brother trying to make a go of a small dairy and it would totally ruin them too and doubtful they could ever take care of reimbursing anyway.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

This is a sad and difficult situation and there are no easy answers. Because this involves almost the entire herd, if I were in your place I would probably hang onto the goats and watch carefully for abscesses. Internal CL abscesses are fairly common in sheep but rare in goats, making this a somewhat easier problem to detect and deal with than in sheep. Many CL-positive goats go their whole lives without ever developing an abscess, which means they will never infect another goat. 

What you could do is set up a quarantine area that will only ever be used by goats with active abscesses. When a goat develops a lump, put her in the quarantine area until it bursts and is completely healed before putting her back with the rest of the herd. Try to make sure you capture all the pus and remove it so it doesn't spread all over the goat and the quarantine area. There are people who have successfully eradicated CL from their herds by doing this kind of thing. 

Since you bottle-raise anyway, babies can be quarantined in their own area away from the adults so they can't ever come in contact with the bacteria. You'll have to be careful that they don't share a fence line and that you are clean before going into their area. You can buy one of those disinfecting mats to wipe your feet and wear a fresh coverall. As long as you inform your buyers that you have CL on your property but tell them the steps you are taking to ensure the babies don't get it, I'm sure you'll be able to find good homes for the kids. 

CL is not usually a debilitating disease for the goat, so I'm not a huge fan of the "kill 'em all" concept if it's already spread throughout most of your herd. Culling a handful of positives from an otherwise clean herd is not the scenario you're dealing with, so I think a different approach may be in order. You may also find that your goats test negative down the road. The blood test only shows antibody titers (and it is somewhat inaccurate and can be thrown off by other things that affect the immune system). A goat that launches a successful antibody attack will never develop CL symptoms but will remain "positive" as long as she retains her antibodies.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Damfino said:


> This is a sad and difficult situation and there are no easy answers. Because this involves almost the entire herd, if I were in your place I would probably hang onto the goats and watch carefully for abscesses. Internal CL abscesses are fairly common in sheep but rare in goats, making this a somewhat easier problem to detect and deal with than in sheep. Many CL-positive goats go their whole lives without ever developing an abscess, which means they will never infect another goat.
> 
> What you could do is set up a quarantine area that will only ever be used by goats with active abscesses. When a goat develops a lump, put her in the quarantine area until it bursts and is completely healed before putting her back with the rest of the herd. Try to make sure you capture all the pus and remove it so it doesn't spread all over the goat and the quarantine area. There are people who have successfully eradicated CL from their herds by doing this kind of thing.
> 
> ...


I have greatly debated this also. As it is probably all but possibly 5-7 goats affected out of 25. Many of them are such good, productive, beautiful animals that I paid good money for and it is tragic they contracted it because of the circumstances I was in. I am very good at biosecurity. I do it with my occupation and it's second nature for me to disinfect with novalsen practically everything I touch and animals touch when working or home from work or going to work. I wear boots covers to all my jobs changing between, disinfecting tools etc. I know biosecurity well. I feel so horrified with the idea of putting my entire herd down or shipping for meat. I have so much to think about. These animals while livestock are also semi pets. One of my girls is 10 and she was born here. Several are 4-7 years old also born here or bought very young.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Sounds like you are the perfect person to safely keep a CL+ herd! I know a couple of folks who have slowly worked their herds to a CL-free status without culling their animals. They just had to be careful about biosecurity--especially with kids and with active cases. If you keep your herd you will start to figure out which goats are more prone to abscesses than others. Anything that regularly sprouts new lumps should probably be culled. Not only are they the riskiest for contaminating the rest of the herd, they are also a lot more work and they do not have good natural resistance, which means you probably don't want to continue those genetics. Goats that test positive but never develop lumps show good natural resistance to CL and I would think those are better genetics to breed. You have a lot to think about, but I really believe it would be possible for you to keep your herd and manage this disease in a way that is both sensible for you and ethical for your kid buyers. However, selling your adult goats does present an ethical dilemma. I personally would not sell a CL+ goat to anyone except for meat.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Damfino said:


> Sounds like you are the perfect person to safely keep a CL+ herd! I know a couple of folks who have slowly worked their herds to a CL-free status without culling their animals. They just had to be careful about biosecurity--especially with kids and with active cases. If you keep your herd you will start to figure out which goats are more prone to abscesses than others. Anything that regularly sprouts new lumps should probably be culled. Not only are they the riskiest for contaminating the rest of the herd, they are also a lot more work and they do not have good natural resistance, which means you probably don't want to continue those genetics. Goats that test positive but never develop lumps show good natural resistance to CL and I would think those are better genetics to breed. You have a lot to think about, but I really believe it would be possible for you to keep your herd and manage this disease in a way that is both sensible for you and ethical for your kid buyers. However, selling your adult goats does present an ethical dilemma. I personally would not sell a CL+ goat to anyone except for meat.


I definitely wouldn't sell any unless they were for meat. I already turned down a decent offer because they wanted to start a herd with them. I know I could keep and manage a CL herd, I'm just not certain that I WANT to. It is so much more work and kidding is stressful, trying to make sure no kids are born and nurse while I am away etc. Just entails a lot more. On a more positive note, most of this herd are at least 5 years or older so they aren't super young. I am in contact with my vet and we are discussing this as well.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Jessica84 said:


> I would bet you $100 that guy that was going to do you a favor and dispose of them either A. Was going to eat them or B. Take them to the sale and make money or C. Sell them as meat. Don't give them to him. I'm sorry, could be wrong, but that has "I'm going to screw your over" written all over his offer.
> I'm trying to tread lightly here because this is a very debatable topic that can get very much heated. But if you do find it unmoral to take to the sale with them announcing they are positive then put a add up on CL for butcher goats and explain why. Just know that you might still get buyers that do not care one way or the other. Heck just last month I was shocked someone posted a goat for sale on FB. It was all honest and laid out on the table, she is positive and has the scars to prove it. She was a NICE wether bred doe, I'll hand them that but I was shocked that she didn't just sell, or sell at market value, she sold for a LOT of money! No way was someone taking her home and eating her. The point of my story though is you can try all you want for your animals to not go into a breeding situation but it's not guaranteed that it won't happen. All you can do is be honest and if someone doesn't fully understand what that means try to explain it to them.


Yes, I didn't trust him either. I mean really why offer to take a bunch of goats just to put them down and use your resources in fuel etc just for that? I feel like having a CL herd is discrediting my farm name and makes me look bad as a breeder, but on the other hand keeping them and letting them live out their lives in basically a off and on quarantine (and honestly if they all have it what is the point in even quarantining if one has an abcess?). Once they all die off of old age or what not then I can completely unoccupy this side of my property and utilize the other side which would not be contaminated. I can keep my clean ones on the left side and my cl ones on the right. Just a thought. I'm still debating.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

rebelINny said:


> Yes, I didn't trust him either. I mean really why offer to take a bunch of goats just to put them down and use your resources in fuel etc just for that? I feel like having a CL herd is discrediting my farm name and makes me look bad as a breeder, but on the other hand keeping them and letting them live out their lives in basically a off and on quarantine (and honestly if they all have it what is the point in even quarantining if one has an abcess?). Once they all die off of old age or what not then I can completely unoccupy this side of my property and utilize the other side which would not be contaminated. I can keep my clean ones on the left side and my cl ones on the right. Just a thought. I'm still debating.


Just look at the majiks you are already working in your brain now that you are processing this instead of the freak out stage! You will do a great job whatever way you go!


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

I don't think this is a complete discredit to your name. A majority of goats are CL+ however most herds don't test for it and say they are CL- based off of the lack of abscesses on their goats, or they aren't completely honest. I'm not saying this is what you should do, however, some people genuinely don't care if their breeding goat has CL. I think if you are very upfront with people wanting to purchase from you about this it isn't a huge issue. But, of course, new owners aren't the best option for purchasing a CL+ doe because they may not have a clear grasp of what this disease all entails.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Nursing is a very unlikely source for CL. It's possible, but not likely. One reason to keep your active CL cases in quarantine is to avoid having them spread the bacteria on that entire half of the property (it can last a long time in the soil) and to avoid having them spread it on each other. Goats that don't have bacteria on their udders and coats can't give it to their kids even if you aren't there to "catch". Also, if a goat kids on contaminated soil, the kids could pick it up there. It would be wise to contain the bacteria as much as possible to reduce the risk of infecting kids. 

If you do accidentally have the occasional unattended birth and you're worried about contamination, you can always sell those particular kids for meat. They will not develop CL until they are older and therefore can't pass it to the other kids. Clean them up good and put them in your baby pen, but tag their ears or something to remind yourself that these are meat babies.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I was thinking about this while I did my evening chores and another reason you want to separate your active CL cases is because you don't want more bacterial exposure among your non-active cases. What can happen with some pathogens is if the body is exposed to it multiple times, the body can become more and more reactive to it. You might start seeing more goats become clinical or have more lumps because they are being constantly exposed to the bacteria to the point where their bodies can't effectively fight it. 

Also, the more places the bacteria spreads, the more likelihood of it getting into areas where you don't want it. Goats get loose, dogs run between pens, wild critters go in and out, etc. A small, separate quarantine pen would greatly reduce the spread, and if it's set up right you might even be able to completely sanitize a small area once a goat was let out of quarantine.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Damfino said:


> Nursing is a very unlikely source for CL. It's possible, but not likely. One reason to keep your active CL cases in quarantine is to avoid having them spread the bacteria on that entire half of the property (it can last a long time in the soil) and to avoid having them spread it on each other. Goats that don't have bacteria on their udders and coats can't give it to their kids even if you aren't there to "catch". Also, if a goat kids on contaminated soil, the kids could pick it up there. It would be wise to contain the bacteria as much as possible to reduce the risk of infecting kids.
> 
> If you do accidentally have the occasional unattended birth and you're worried about contamination, you can always sell those particular kids for meat. They will not develop CL until they are older and therefore can't pass it to the other kids. Clean them up good and put them in your baby pen, but tag their ears or something to remind yourself that these are meat babies.


Good ideas. Thanks. I'm seriously debating...if I sell them to a meat dealer I will seriously lose my shirt and I've put SO MUCH into these animals. Having a quarantine pen won't be difficult at all and I see your reasons why it would still be a good idea. Have you heard of injecting formalin into the abcesses so they don't ever bust? I actually ordered some just I'm case because I did see one young doe with an abcess starting yesterday.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

So I've been playing around with possible scenarios to be able to just keep the goats here till they pass on wether by this disease or naturally of old age. I made up a kind of blueprint of my property and how I think it would work to seperate etc. Right now the goats are on the right side of my house looking from the road. The majority of my property (2.7acres) is on the left side of the house and that area has yet to be touched. These are my plans. The right side plans are already actually there. The left side is what I want to do. I'd keep the cl on the right side while making my current kid pen the now quarantine pen since it has a concrete floor, and move my kid pens to a new building on the left side of my farm. Might be hard to see based on my pathetic little blueprint here but maybe you can see what I'm talking about. All the feed areas would be accessible for me to feed OUTSIDE of the barn area and goat are. It currently is this way. I never have to go in with the goats when I feed. I added photos left to right from the property.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That sounds good. So sorry you are dealing with CL.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I sold 7 of them tonight to a guy who knows they have it and already has CL goats just out eating down brush. At least they live out there life. Got pennies for them, but it is what it is at this point.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

It's so hard when you're emotionally as well as financially invested in your animals but you did the right thing. It'll be a relief knowing they're going to be munching brush instead of condemned for something that wasn't their fault. 
I really hope you can find peace and move forward. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

GoofyGoat said:


> It's so hard when you're emotionally as well as financially invested in your animals but you did the right thing. It'll be a relief knowing they're going to be munching brush instead of condemned for something that wasn't their fault.
> I really hope you can find peace and move forward. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.


Thank you for understanding. That's been the hardest part is knowing they were clean and now because of one person they aren't. I did contact the farm owner where they were a d she says yes she knew she had it but didn't think mine were exposed.  Then said she's very sorry. Sorry unfortunately won't replace my entire herd.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

rebelINny said:


> Thank you for understanding. That's been the hardest part is knowing they were clean and now because of one person they aren't. I did contact the farm owner where they were a d she says yes she knew she had it but didn't think mine were exposed.  Then said she's very sorry. Sorry unfortunately won't replace my entire herd.


You should at least ask that she buys you a couple new does of your choosing so you can start rebuilding your herd for her non-disclosure. It looks like you have a decent situation for biosecurity so that might work in your favor when she replaces the ones you had to take a loss on. Im sure legally you have some recompence but I doubt that she'd be able to replace everyone you lost this might be a compromise if you tell her that instead of taking legal action you'll settle for this solution.
Good Luck!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Sounds like you've got a plan. I'm sorry you took such a loss on the 7 you sold. I hope they live long, happy lives as weed-eaters.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug:


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions and sympathies. I sold all the goats I am the most attached to last night so the rest wont be as difficult. But, I'm pretty sure after mulling it around, pros and cons, I do not want to deal with CL. I'm a busy, single, mom of 6 with my own business and I just don't have the time or energy for handling CL. The next few months will be focused on getting the other side of my property prepared for clean animals and cleaning up the other side, selling the rest of the goats after they kid, and deciding what kids to possibly retain or sell them as well. I'll try to update as things progress, but there is going to be a lot of work going on here.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

rebelINny said:


> Thanks everyone for all the suggestions and sympathies. I sold all the goats I am the most attached to last night so the rest wont be as difficult. But, I'm pretty sure after mulling it around, pros and cons, I do not want to deal with CL. I'm a busy, single, mom of 6 with my own business and I just don't have the time or energy for handling CL. The next few months will be focused on getting the other side of my property prepared for clean animals and cleaning up the other side, selling the rest of the goats after they kid, and deciding what kids to possibly retain or sell them as well. I'll try to update as things progress, but there is going to be a lot of work going on here.


Good luck! It sounds like you've thought things through well, came up with a solid plan and are going to move forward. I'll look forward to hearing how things go.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

rebelINny said:


> Thank you for understanding. That's been the hardest part is knowing they were clean and now because of one person they aren't. I did contact the farm owner where they were a d she says yes she knew she had it but didn't think mine were exposed.  Then said she's very sorry. Sorry unfortunately won't replace my entire herd.


Oh my! I am even MORE sorry and angry for you now that the irresponsibly lady told you that. Ugh! That is just something you disclose to ANY person doing what you did imo before goats transferred to the propert. I am so so sorry! And so very proud of the way you are dealing with it in such a methodical and logical way! You are doing great! Yay for finding part of them homes too. I know this is so hard for you but i also bet it helps to know they will still live to be old farts.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I am so sorry to you. I have to say I am proud of you! I really am! You sat down and really thought things out, you didn’t make a quick decision one way or the other, you considered everything and THEN you acted. I think being in the livestock business is THE HARDEST job there is. It’s not cut and dry, black and white. We have so many things to consider, finances, what is best for the animals, best for the business and our heart to think about. Again I am so very sorry you have to make these tough decisions


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up::squish:


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Sfgwife said:


> Oh my! I am even MORE sorry and angry for you now that the irresponsibly lady told you that. Ugh! That is just something you disclose to ANY person doing what you did imo before goats transferred to the propert. I am so so sorry! And so very proud of the way you are dealing with it in such a methodical and logical way! You are doing great! Yay for finding part of them homes too. I know this is so hard for you but i also bet it helps to know they will still live to be old farts.


I'm glad they at least can live out their lives happily munching a field down. That is plus to having had to sell them.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Jessica84 said:


> I am so sorry to you. I have to say I am proud of you! I really am! You sat down and really thought things out, you didn't make a quick decision one way or the other, you considered everything and THEN you acted. I think being in the livestock business is THE HARDEST job there is. It's not cut and dry, black and white. We have so many things to consider, finances, what is best for the animals, best for the business and our heart to think about. Again I am so very sorry you have to make these tough decisions


Thank you! It is hard, but I will get through it. Better and wiser on the other side. For now the goats still here and very close to kidding. So all thought is on being here when they birth and pulling babies. Any goats that aren't having abcesses may stay shortly so I can get some milk for soap making. Any that may have or recently had abcesses will find new places to go or be put down, depending on the severity. But discretion will be used strongly in where they go if they do or when they do.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Blood testing for CL is not always accurate, a lot of false readings. As was mentioned, testing pus is the best way. There can be a lot of reasons for false positives. The biggest one- were they vaccinated for CL? Once vaccinated, they will forever test positive.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Funny thing is that they only test positive if they have been vaccinated or have an open abscess. They can literally have 5 closed abscesses sticking out all over and they will test marginal.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

lottsagoats1 said:


> Blood testing for CL is not always accurate, a lot of false readings. As was mentioned, testing pus is the best way. There can be a lot of reasons for false positives. The biggest one- were they vaccinated for CL? Once vaccinated, they will forever test positive.


They don't test positive forever. I vaccinated my whole herd for CL in 2015. As of 2019 I did the CL test on the few of those I still have just out of curiosity. They tested negative so apparently those antibodies from the vaccine do not last forever. If the antibodies lasted forever, then the CL vaccine would be recommended as a one-time or once-every-few-years vaccine, but it is recommended annually to keep the antibodies up.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Funny thing is that they only test positive if they have been vaccinated or have an open abscess. They can literally have 5 closed abscesses sticking out all over and they will test marginal.


I got back a low positive last year on a doe that was never vaccinated and who had no abscesses open or otherwise. This year she tested a low marginal and she still has never had an abscess. I also can't think of any place she could have gotten CL since she'd never left my place and we no longer have neighbors with infected goats (and haven't in years).

This year a different doe tested low positive and she has also never been vaccinated and has never had any kind of abscess or been anywhere. I spoke to someone at the lab and she said stress or recent vaccination for other things (CDT, rabies, etc.) can throw the CL test off. She said it is their least reliable test and false low positives are not uncommon. My one doe who tested low positive lost her mother in January and consequently also lost her position as "herd princess" and was getting targeted a lot by the new herd queen. I believe the turmoil caused stress which in turn caused an immune response/antibody flare-up that threw the CL test off.

I don't know why the doe who tested positive last year and marginal this year had those readings. If a goat is truly positive the titer levels should never go down. I plan to keep a closer eye for lumps on these two goats, but at this point I'm fairly well convinced that both of them are false positives.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

rebelINny said:


> Unfortunately I don't know if I can do that. It's a young girl and her brother trying to make a go of a small dairy and it would totally ruin them too and doubtful they could ever take care of reimbursing anyway.


 Regardless if they can pay or not, you need to inform them of the problem you have and that they have a problem and not to sell off animals for breeding stock.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

I agree with Jessica. If you post the animals for sale for meat only and CL positive and not for breeding stock, I am sure that there are someone who will pay you something for them as meat animals. Don't give them to any one who will take them all as they are going to do what you will not do.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

TexasGoatMan said:


> Regardless if they can pay or not, you need to inform them of the problem you have and that they have a problem and not to sell off animals for breeding stock.


I have informed them. They were aware they had it before my goats came or while they were there at least, or that's what I was told.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Ok question on this topic again for those that know. I have been in talks with my vet over these guys and how to handle it etc etc. She says Naxxel can be used in the abcesses to keep them from popping much like Formalin. However I'm guessing Naxxel is RX and probably much more expensive. I already have Formalin. Thoughts? Also how would one go about injecting it? Is there a certain angle that is best to make sure it goes only in the abcess? And would you do this to a pregnant goat with an abcess. I am planning to sell these guys after kidding for meat but I may keep two for milk for a couple months so I want to know how to do this.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I know there was someone on here who did it but can't remember who.


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