# Flipping a goat



## windsking55

I have read in the threads on training about flippping a goat onto its side and holding it down to assert your dominance and make the goat submissive. What techniques do you use to flip the goat? Does there come a time when the goat is too big and too strong to make this practical?


----------



## Bob Jones

I guess it depends on whether you want heads or tails ;-)

I am 200 pounds..

I lean over the goat from the side and grab the legs on the same side as I am. So If I'm on the right, I lean over and grab under him getting his right legs.

Then I lean back and sit down using my knees to leverage him. Of course he ends up on my lap.

There is probably a better way so I am as anxious as you for a proper explanation of the technique.


----------



## Rex

Stand in the middle of the goat and reach under its belly and grab the two legs on the opposite side. Turn your face toward the rear of the goat for safety reasons in case a horned goat should jerk its head back. Once you have the two off side legs in hand, push into the goat with your shoulder while gently pulling the legs toward you. The goat will tip over away from you. As soon as it hits the ground, release the "back leg only" and step over it so you are now standing behind the goats neck and shoulder area. The goat is going to flail around in the beginning so stepping over it keeps you from getting kicked. Continue to hold onto the front leg and put you hand on its neck to hold it down so it can't get its legs under it. If the goat is larger, then gently use your knee on its neck to help hold it down. As long as you keep the goat laying flat and hold its front leg up and its neck down it can't get up. The directions sound long but in actuality it all happens at once.

Since you aren't picking up any weight with this method you are only limited by your tenacity. "Lightfoot Packgoats" who is on this forum, weighs next to nothing (if that) and God help the goat that looks at her sideways, no matter how big it is. LOL 

The most important thing to remember is to hold it down until it completely submits and relaxes. Most goats will take a rest break, but that isn't submission. Patting gently on the goats side and neck while you talk to it will help speed the process along. I generally have to hold them for 5-10 minutes. I believe "sweetgoatmama" said they held one for 20 minutes before it finally gave up. Failure to hold them until they completely submit will require you to do it over and over while one good one may be all it'll ever need. Depends on how stubborn your goat is.


----------



## windsking55

Thanks for the replies. And thanks for hosting this forum Rex. I don't own a goat yet and I already know more than I ever wanted to know about goats. Now waiting for the goats.


----------



## Bob Jones

Figures I'd do it backwards... ;-)


----------



## gsbswf

I recommend attending a calf branding, if you can find one. After you wrastle a hundred calves or so, your goat will seem easy.


----------



## Sbell

I do it like Rex posted, No one really had shown me, but I have one boy who is pretty darned big and that would be the only way I would get him on the ground.


----------



## B&amp;Cpacker

What type of behavior problems does this technique fix? Is the goat aggressive toward people in order to need this submission technique? Would it work to stop a goat from moving away from you just because he doesn't want to be put on his lead rope?


----------



## Rex

Flipping them is primarily for dominance issues. It would have a negative impact on a goat that was scared of you, making the problem worse. 

I have had success using it to curb obnoxious behavior, like yanking their feet away when I am trimming, poking me with their horns when I am holding them and they want loose etc.

A goat that won't be caught when it knows you want to catch it is best treated with the sly treat and grab trick. I have also used the horse method where you run them around a round pen by raising your arms and yelling to make them run till they don't want to run anymore. A couple times of that and they stop in their tracks when you raise your arm to make them run again.


----------



## jross

B&Cpacker said:


> What type of behavior problems does this technique fix? Is the goat aggressive toward people in order to need this submission technique? Would it work to stop a goat from moving away from you just because he doesn't want to be put on his lead rope?


I had to flip Pinto, my big boy (the goat in my avatar), the other day because he wouldn't stand still and let me trim his hooves. He needed an attitude adjustment so I put him on the ground using Rex's method, and sat on him for a few minutes. When I let him up and went back to work on him he was much less trouble.

The interesting thing was that there were no hard feelings during or after the attitude adjustment. He even nibbled on grass while I had him down on the ground.


----------



## Bob Jones

One of the bad habits I was warned of when I took Diego was that he didn't know where his horns were. Well, a goat always knows where his horns are. He can snake them through a horse panel and skewer a fly on his butt with the first jab.

So I started violating our first mythological rule of never touching their horns. Whenever he would 'misplace' his horns, I would grab them and twist his head and hold him. This is not a butting routine since it doesn't start with the sideways glance. But it is still a dominance routine, and he has no hard feelings and will still come over and want me to scratch his head and face. Perhaps even more so. Of course he was well-socialized before he became the dominant goat.

I figure if you do dominance things you must win every time, or they think it is OK to challenge you. And if you play the game, change the rules. You would never go head to head with a goat, so you flip him. If you have to give him a gentle pop, don't do it on the head, make it a gentle pop from under the chin. He can't even imagine how you did that. 

If I have flipped him while I am holding him I scratch his neck. I figure most bonded goats will already have been handled and scratched on the neck a lot and that it desensitizes them to thinking it is an attack bite. So while I have him down I scratch him there as an added mind game. 

Or you can be like the lady with the house broke Yak. You don't challenge their dominance and let them go and do what they want. ;-)


----------



## rtdoyer

It was mentioned that flipping is used more for dominance issues or behavior issues. The behavior issue applies to young goats not trained. Is there a time when you say the training isn't working on a young goat and you flip it to say, "I'm in charge."? 

I'm getting 4 babies tomorrow that are 3 months old and never handled. My thoughts are the training (correctly) comes first for a while and then down the road you start flipping if/when you need to. 

OR - do people out there flip the babies too?

Tonia


----------



## sanhestar

Hello,

normally flipping isn't necessary before puberty hits (resp. hormones) unless a young goat has been raised to be disrespectful against humans from a very young age.

But last year I had a buck kid that I needed to flip at around age 3 months (and he still is more pushy than the others this year). 

I'd say, get the kids, start to train them and see where/when/if issues occur that would warant flipping.


----------



## Bob Jones

Sounds silly, but I slept with my baby goats the first few nights, and when we camp, so far, they have laid right next to me. I have to figure out how to break them of that now, but I would think that the bonding as a pseudo-parent goes a long way to control dominance issues.

That reminds me... time to trim feet.


----------



## Rex

rtdoyer said:


> It was mentioned that flipping is used more for dominance issues or behavior issues. The behavior issue applies to young goats not trained. Is there a time when you say the training isn't working on a young goat and you flip it to say, "I'm in charge."? Tonia


I generally flip for only three reasons. 1) They are acting dominate around me or another human. 2)They are being obnoxious or disrespectful as in pushing past you or knocking you out of the way. 3) They are stubbornly refusing to do something they have been trained to do.

Number 1 and 2 can be goats of any age but is most often observed at one to two years of age. Number 3 is more for experienced goats who just decided they don't want to listen to me today. I wouldn't do it to a young goat that is in training and may be confused about what you want but like Jross said, if it is one of my older wethers who know exactly what I am asking and then blatantly refuses to comply, then over they go. When they get up its with a whole new "can do" attitude.

Tipping them over for reasons 1 and 2 can cause some friction between you and them for a while, while they process the lesson you are trying to teach. Tipping them for reason 3, as noted by jross, is different because they know exactly why they got tipped and often times the goat has no hard feelings afterward but will simply comply with your original request. Which in hoof trimming is to simply stand still and stop yanking their dang foot away.


----------



## sweetgoatmama

We flipped a goat at one of the rendies, since he came up at his owner right in front of us. Rodney and John Conly, whose goat it was, laid him down. He then proceeded to play possum for about 5 minutes hoping we would go away. I wwent over and lightly started slapping him and he blew up again. Repeated this for 30 minutes before he got that he had better hold still. If they jump or struggle they are not ready to get up. When you release them they should get up slowly or just lie there tilll you help them. You want them to think that they died.

We don't have to throw goats around here since they are all told from birth that struggling in any fashion will just get you held longer.

As far as playing with the horns, if you start at birth it is a non-issue. I expecct to put my hands anywhere I want to and that includes the horns. ALice's goats are all trained to be held by the horns when they are being doctored. They make great handles.


----------



## windsking55

Since I asked this I have flipped a younger goat once. I looked over and saw him raking his horns up and down a young weeping blue spruce and ripping branches off. I was plenty mad but just went over and pushed between the goat and the tree and tried to push him away. When I did that he lowered his head and defied me. I was so glad when that happened because I was already mad and was itching for an excuse to flip him. So far no problems since but I don't let him near the tree either.


----------



## sanhestar

Hello,

why did you get angry at him for a normal goat behaviour? Raking horns is for one thing part of the dominance behaviour and for another part of the eating behaviour (breaking the bark and/or smaller branches to make them ready for browsing).


----------



## Cazz

We train our goats not to touch certain trees, so if they know they are not allowed to touch or eat a certain tree, but do anyway, then punishment would be expected for disobedience. If they are just eating any old tree out in the bush, it would only be if you told them not to and they continued to eat it that they would deserve punishment, but either way, threatening in any shape or form I do not think is acceptable.
Some may think that this is taking it too far, but if I tell a buck to get away from a doe, I expect him to - whether or not he is charged with hormones. And if a take a doe away after being served and the buck challenges me to try and get back with her, he knows that he is going to get punished - so in the same way, if they understand that they are doing something against your will, even if it would normally be natural, then I think it follows that they should get punished if they threaten when your will is enforced. Even if the goat didn't know that he wasn't allowed to eat the tree, threatening a person is plainly not acceptable in any situation.
Sorry if I sound mad myself... :| 
Cheers,
Cazz


----------



## Jake Levi

Good info here thanks, when I'd read the term flipping before I was thinking in terms of the calf roping flanking, I have flanked some pretty heavy calves but this does sound easier. 

I agree on the hands go anywhere I want them to be. 

Sleeping with kids cant be much different then a couple dogs curled up close to the sleeping bag, a 3 goat night could be pretty comfy. 

I have winter camped with sled dogs with a tarp shelter and expect 3-4 goats could be quite comfy . If nobody wants to pee on me.


----------



## Bob Jones

Jake said:


> Good info here thanks, when I'd read the term flipping before I was thinking in terms of the calf roping flanking, I have flanked some pretty heavy calves but this does sound easier.
> 
> I agree on the hands go anywhere I want them to be.
> 
> Sleeping with kids cant be much different then a couple dogs curled up close to the sleeping bag, a 3 goat night could be pretty comfy.
> 
> I have winter camped with sled dogs with a tarp shelter and expect 3-4 goats could be quite comfy . If nobody wants to pee on me.


Well... It hasnothing to do with what they want to do. Goats pee when they get up. So if they do this in the middle of the night you've had it. They don't think to walk off like a dog and find a tree. This is why I am using a hammock. It's called "camping above the pee line." ;-)


----------



## Jake Levi

Bob said "This is why I am using a hammock. It's called "camping above the pee line." 


:lol: :lol:


----------



## yaufent

I sort of figured you were building bows when you said it was Yew wood. A straight piece would be the only reason to go to that much effort. LOL


----------



## patti marar

Flipping goats?! Oh boy, and I thought "alpha rolling" a dog was hard! I do that with dominant dogs when abosultely necessary, but never would have guessed it'd be the same with a goat. I have a VERY nasty, dominant doe Alpine. She's dominant with goats, dogs, people, cats, you name it! She has very large horns and she knows how to use them. She also outweighs me and so I doubt I could ever flip her and hold her--plus she scares me! We took her and her buddy home when we adopted a horse from the same house that owner was about shoot them all because he couldn't afford to keep them. They were already a couple of years old and unsocialized. I do love her and could never do what everyone suggests (what the original owner wanted to do) just because she's being a goat. Thank goodness she doesn't challenge my husband! I'll have to tell him about this flipping...If we were to try it, how do you avoid those darn horns? Hers are HUGE and she can do anything with them (opens latches, scratches her own butt, etc)> If I were to turn my head away I'm afraid she might spear the back of my neck. I generally control her with niceness and just grab her collar and she'll walk with me. The problem is she is moody in her own pen, which makes cleaning or working in their pen dangerous. If the other doe wants attention and is near me, we both get nailed. Anyone know other ways to deal with this behavior? She'll be sweet as can be and then turn on me without provocation. Our new solution is that we are building a small goat barn and she will be seperated from our other two by having her own stall and her own little paddock next to the others, seperated by an electric fence. Thanks for any help or advice! Patti Marar


----------



## Nanno

Your doe sounds like a real ornery critter! For safety working in the corral, start bringing a water hose with sprayer out with you. When she comes toward you with that aggressive "look" in her eye, blast her with cold water and make a disapproval noise. I like to make a deep grunt in my chest like dominant goats do. Some people say "ch-ch-ch" or use a verbal command. You can also pet the non-dominant goat and hold the sprayer in your other hand and blast the dominant goat when she tries to come over and drive off the one you're petting. I'm sure your nice goat will appreciate the protection you provide when you are there. 

As soon as your mean doe wants to play nice and comes over with a submissive, curious, or interested but not aggressive attitude, lower your hose and scratch her nicely and give her a treat she likes. Don't let her drive the other goat away when you're there. They need to play nice when you're in the middle. The minute her hackles start to go up or she tips a horn in your direction, immediately make your disapproval noise and give her a water treatment. Soon you should be able to only make the noise in order for her to back off. Then start leaving the hose by the gate. 

When you're feeling confident that she can be deterred by less than a full-on blast, you can downsize to a squirt bottle or water pistol. And as she improves, make sure not to ignore the little things like the raised hackles, tipping a horn in your direction, "accidentally" brushing you with a horn, or bumping her sides into you when she passes. She needs to respect your space when walking around you. I, personally, have had much more success with water than with tipping my goat. I've tipped him over a few times in the past and it's a lot of work. The water is easier and seems to be more effective, less time-consuming, and doesn't get me covered in dirt.


----------



## patti marar

Thank you SO MUCH! I'd feel so much safer with something in my hand. I've even had to use a horse whip to protect myself at times, and believe it or not, it doesn't work! Ah, but I've seen that water in action. Now, all we have to do is make sure we have long enough hose to reach. My daughter's so excited to try it she wants to do it right now. Oh, and don't worry, we wouldn't use it unnecessarily, but I know it would only be a matter of a few seconds before I'd have to use it. Now, my other quandry--winter's coming up and water would not be a possibility.While I could flip our other two goats I think--I know it would be highly dangerous to do this to this goate because of her horns, which are very long and sharp. Even if I turn my head, my neck would be exposed. Oh, boy, dogs are just so much easier--and I've dealt with my fair share of very aggressive and nasty dogs!! (But I love the goats too-just something new to learn!)


----------



## Bob Jones

If you're worried about a fight and flinging horns... Have the lead attached to the halter, Let him step over it so that it is between his front legs. Now pull on it so that his chin is on his chest. 

Holding the lead with the hand which will grab the rear leg, do your flip. If you wish you can even take a loop around his rear leg with the lead so that if he kicks, he pulls his head lower.

If you're tiny, you can even loop front legs to rear so that by pulling the lead the legs are pulled together and stabilized. (like hog tying)

Domination is a matter of attitude. The flipping is just one way to communicate the attitude. So plan for a tussle where you have a mega advantage, in order to give you the confidence to carry it off.

It's not the flip itself that counts, but the holding them down. You get more mileage out of holding his face on the ground, than on letting him flail while holding the rest of him. I like to hold his head and pet him to calm him so I control the rest by lying on him and holding one leg strategically. 

And if he's really aggressive so that you are really worried about the horns, by all means put water weanies on them. (or pipe insulation).


----------



## ryorkies

Would you buy a goat when the first thing he does is
challenge you. Head butt, hook you with his horns?


----------



## Nanno

> Now, my other quandry--winter's coming up and water would not be a possibility.


You should be able to get this problem well in hand before winter comes. In fact, if you don't see any improvement in the next few weeks, you may need to consider getting rid of this goat since she could be dangerous for you and your kids. The last thing you need is for someone to get stabbed. I also like Bob's idea of getting some kind of padding over her horns so she can't do so much damage with them. There are also a few threads in these forums about ways to remove horns from adult goats. You may find this makes a tremendous difference in her attitude, and it would prevent her from being able to damage the other goats or your mare again (should she escape into the horse corral).


----------



## IceDog

If the tips of her horns are sharp I wouldn't hesitate for a second to nip the tips off, then if desired use a file to sand them blunt. In my experience blood circulation is only in the first few inches of the horns so you should be able to safely remove enough horn to remove the sharp tips.

One day I found my old angora doe with her hide shredded on one side, two 6"-8" long rips clear through the hide with the same spacing as my other does horns, and a couple of puncture wounds. I immediately nipped the sharp horn tips off two does. I felt pretty certain which one did it, but to be sure and make it safer for my other goats in the future I nipped the sharp tips off both. Those older does can end up with very sharp horn tips!

If you lack the confidence to flip her, have your husband flip her, then you step in and appear to be the one holding her down. I had my grandson sit on my old angora buck after I flipped him when he just gave him a gentle shove from behind. One thing about those older goats with a huge set of horns is once down you can typically keep them down with just a foot on one horn.

I've also purchased the Horn Guards from Northwest to use with my horned boys if I ever take them packing with grandkids along. Not that my boys have ever threatened the grandkids but accidents do happen even with friendly goats.

http://northwestpackgoats.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=36

Please for your's and your daughter's safety do what ever is necessary to stop your doe from attacking you. If needed put her down. There are so many nice goats out there in need of homes. I just purchased a huge 2 yo Alpine/Oberhasli wether for $50 that is as nice and sweet as they come!

Good Luck!


----------



## IceDog

PS... I wouldn't even wait for a display of aggression to flip her.

I'd go out and flip her next time you interact with her. It may even be easier if you do it when she's not already in an aggressive mood.

She attacks you unprovoked to keep you in your place. Turn the tables on her. Speak her language.


----------



## ryorkies

I was wondering if the horns could be blunted.
Could you band the top two inches and have the fall off?


----------



## IceDog

My guess would be that you likely could band a couple of inches of her horn tips and they'd eventually fall off. I'd expect it to take a quite a while though.

At least in this case I'd fear someone may be injured while waiting. I used horse hoof nippers on my old does horns. If you don't have any (most people probably don't) just hire any farrier to come nip them off, my guess is that it would be the cost of one horse trim, often around $25. Then you could file the edges smooth or let them wear smooth. Good chance the farrier would even rasp the rough edges for you. Trim and rasp four horns or four hooves.....I'd expect it to be the same price! It would be great if you could find a farrier that is familiar with handling goats.

Remember the guy that was gored in the leg by a mtn goat, apparently it hit an artery and the guy bled to death.

Please put your safety first!


----------



## Bob Jones

ryorkies said:


> Would you buy a goat when the first thing he does is
> challenge you. Head butt, hook you with his horns?


Depends. I'd take him for a walk, and if he made it back I would. ;-)


----------



## Bob Jones

IceDog said:


> PS... I wouldn't even wait for a display of aggression to flip her.
> 
> I'd go out and flip her next time you interact with her. It may even be easier if you do it when she's not already in an aggressive mood.
> 
> She attacks you unprovoked to keep you in your place. Turn the tables on her. Speak her language.


I flip my goats just to trim their feet. They don't get mad... they get submissive.


----------



## IceDog

> I flip my goats just to trim their feet. They don't get mad... they get submissive.


Exactly!

I flip and restrain my angoras for hours, with a break or two, when I shear them. Also to trim hooves on the smaller goats. They submit and have NEVER acted aggressive towards me.

Someone stopped by once when I was out shearing an angora, they stated wow they're cooperative.... I remember thinking it's more that they're submitting than coorperating! LOL


----------



## Cazz

Hi Patti Marar,
I would suggest you put two rings at the base of each of her horns ASAP. The horns are soon uncomfortable to be touched, and giving a solid tap on them will chase her away when she is aggressive. We ringed the massive horns of two does belonging to a friend earlier this year, and one doe lost her first horn less than a month later. Both had lost both of their horns within two months, and after being total queens thrashing all the smaller does around, they are nice does who we no longer fear to put in with our goats when we mind them. (we have taken the horns off with rings of any of our goats who weren't disbudded, and despite being good fighters these friends' goats would stab our goats anywhere they liked)
Taking her horns off should totally change her attitude, and she won't be anywhere near as scary, as well as taking a few months to learn how to fight again. (in which time you can easily become her boss)
All the best with your goats! I'd like to hear how they go. The advice on water as well can be very useful when you don't want to/can't flip the goat, and a pressure hose works wonders at clearing goats away!
Cheers,
Cazz


----------



## Jake Levi

This seems like a great topic for a seminar at the next rendy ! 

I fully agree with Bob, this goat would be on very thin ice with me, I have zero tolerance for this stuff.

She'd get flipped and sat on several days, plus getting the horns banded. All immediately having a farrier come and nip the horns while the banding takes effect is also wisdom but the immediate task is to teach her you are boss and ALWAYS to be respected, banding the horns is to protect the other goats, people and dogs. Its a shame that she never learned this at her previous home. But, its never too late.


----------



## Saltlick

I doubt I could flip my big goat, although I have the little one. The big one is being very stubborn lately, not aggressive, but pulling me around and being pushy. I'm at a disadvantage (and so is he) because they are boarded an hour from where I live (not by choice) and I do not get to see them often enough, I think he just needs worked with more regularly (like when I took him camping for tow weeks, he was great) - In about a month I should have a new place only 13 minutes from my house and I'll get to see them every day.

I can't flip him because of my back I think, had surgery in the past and have other very bad discs and I am scared of hurting myself.


----------



## sanhestar

I wouldn't flip a goat with such behaviour.

I would use a good halter (maybe a rope halter) and work on his lead training.


----------



## Saltlick

Yes he hasn't shown aggression at all (except towards the little goat and the dog sometimes). He's actually pretty sweet. And he DOES know how to lead very well, I just think he needs a reminder again and I think simply the fact that I don't get to work with him enough lately has a lot to do with it. I can't wait until they are both near my house!


----------



## jross

Saltlick said:


> Yes he hasn't shown aggression at all (except towards the little goat and the dog sometimes). He's actually pretty sweet. And he DOES know how to lead very well, I just think he needs a reminder again and I think simply the fact that I don't get to work with him enough lately has a lot to do with it. I can't wait until they are both near my house!


Flipping a goat doesn't require any lifting or real strength. Just squat down next to him, reach under and get ahold of his legs on the opposite side, just above the ankles . Put your head and shoulder against his side (face away from head and horns) and quickly lean into him until he topples over. Do it quick and don't hesitate or you will give him time to fight you. When he topples over quickly get your leg over him and scoot up and stradle him, and holding him on his side with your weight. Don't let him get his legs under himself. Watch out for flailing hooves and head. Now you can just sit there holding him down while you work on his toes, or just give him and attitude adjustment if that's what he needs.

And as Bob Jones says, they don't seem to hold a grudge about it (I know I would!). But some behavior issues, like dragging you around on leash, can probably be more effectively dealt with by using a halter.


----------



## sanhestar

jross said:


> And as Bob Jones says, they don't seem to hold a grudge about it (I know I would!). But some behavior issues, like dragging you around on leash, can probably be more effectively dealt with by using a halter.


I'd say this depends on character and maybe breed. I've learned that the more mellow goats in my herd don't hold a grudge whereas the blackneck and the alpine cross react with reservation and consternation when being flipped for lesser infractions.


----------



## jross

I'll have to start watching my goats for signs of "consternation" after flipping. I have seen some irony in Moose, but Pinto will sometimes nibble grass while I sit on him and work on his toes. I would call that "resignation".


----------



## sanhestar

not while - after.

And not when the flipping has a reason, like really borderline or bad behaviour. But, f.e. one time I needed to show someone how to flip a goat and used a very slight infraction where a tap on the nose would have been enough as a reason for flipping.


----------

