# Is she ADGA grade Saanen or Sable? Cream(ish) with white patches



## ProvidenceHill (Sep 9, 2013)

My 8-month-old 1/2 Saanen doeling is more or less cream colored, but if you look closely she has a couple of large patches of white, and the front of her face is white while her ears and neck are cream. (See photos below.) It's pretty subtle unless you're looking for it and looks worse with her winter coat in. I am thinking of registering her with ADGA so it's easier for my kids to show her in 4-H, but I am very confused about how to register her. Her father was a registered Saanen (mother was unregistered Lamancha-Alpine), but as I look at the ADGA rules I get more and more confused. She is 50% Saanen, but because she is not perfectly *solid* white or cream but cream with white patches, is she not eligible as a recorded grade Saanen? I think I could register as 50% Sable if I do it before Jan. 1 (?), but I'm not sure I want to do that because there are no Sable breeders to my knowledge in my area and the only buck available is a Saanen. I'd rather have her as 50% Saanen so when I breed her to a Saanen buck her kids will be 75% and a generation away from breeding up to American. Or does her coloring make her a Grade Experimental even though her father was a registered Saanen? My kids aren't planning to show beyond the 4-H show at the county fair, but if I can increase the value of her kids or even breed up to American Saanen in a couple of generations it would make sense to do that. I'd be perfectly happy to breed up to Sable too if there were another breeder around to provide a buck, but AI's a no-go financially for me I'm afraid.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

she will be recorded grade I believe since mom is unregistered, which means her daughter can be registered but not her Buck kids.....if both parents were registered then she would be Experiamental...


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## ProvidenceHill (Sep 9, 2013)

Yes, I got that far, but the color concerns me. Here are a couple of quotes from the ADGA Guidebook:

*5. SAANEN*
1/2 AMERICAN
One parent is a purebred or American Saanen and the
other is of unrecorded or unknown ancestry.
3/4 AMERICAN
Sire is a purebred or American Saanen and the dam​
is recorded as a 1/2 American Saanen.

*NOTES:*
_*If the individual to be registered is anything but correct*_
_*color and/or type, it is not eligible for entry into a breed*_
_*herd book.*_ It may, however, be recorded in an Experimental
Register. If the individual conforms to breed standard but
either parent does not, the animal still is not eligible for
entry into the American section, (Conditional Exception for
Sable females born before 01/01/05, see Rule D., 1., a.
above), but it can be put into an Experimental Register.​

So I guess my question is, if she's cream with white patches, does she violate the bold section above, or can she be a recorded grade Saanen?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Humm..interesting...Saanen should be white or cream..with white being prefered...


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

so, a sable is saanen who is not white? (I had to look it up....LOL) Why couldn't you go ahead and register her as sable and still breed to a saanen? If the kids from that pairing were the correct color you could use them to breed up....couldn't you? Or would that violate the registry rules? Sometimes it is sooooo confusing to figure out the registries!


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## ProvidenceHill (Sep 9, 2013)

There's been a huge kerfuffle in the ADGA because starting Jan. 1, 2015, colored kids from 2 Saanen parents will NOT be allowed to be registered as Sables. They will have to be Experimentals, even though both parents are registered Saanens. I think they are trying to establish the Sable as a completely separate breed rather than just a color variation of Saanens (which is what I think they really are, but that's a discussion for a different thread!) So if I register her as a 50% Sable and I breed her to a Saanen buck (all I have available), even if her kids are colored, I can never breed up to Sable. Practically speaking I would rather register her as Saanen for that reason, so some day I could breed up to American.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

What a mess! What about sending in her registration as Saanen calling her cream? I know you have to send a pic but the spots are really hard to see. The most they could do is kick it back as not right.....isn't it? They couldn't stop you from registering her at all after that, could they? Sometimes the registries get so messed up on things that should be non-issues. The other thing that could throw a wrench in the works for you is that as a 1/2 lamancha, she could throw babies with elf ears. Don't know how that would affect a registration for her.

I admit....I have no clue on this. Just talking it thru and seeing if there is some way around it that wouldn't get you in trouble with the registry...


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

You could email ADGA the pictures and say you are confused as to how to register her. 
I personally would say Sannan, as she is within the color allowed, and the white is hard to see. I believe there is even a thread here about someone's doe that has a white belt.


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## ProvidenceHill (Sep 9, 2013)

Maybe I'll do that, it might be the easiest route at this point. It's not like we will be showing beyond the county fair or raising anything other than family milkers. Her dam is actually half Lamancha and half Alpine, although she looks Lamancha. That means the doeling is only 1/4 Lamancha and her Saanen-fathered kids will only be 1/8 Lamancha, so hopefully those ears won't crop up again!

I think it was the word "solid" that threw me. She is indeed the correct colors, I just wasn't sure she was allowed to be BOTH white and cream rather than one or the other. I'll have to look for the thread about the belted Saanen.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

If you haven't read this ADGA article, you might find it useful. There is contact information at the bottom for unanswered questions. I think those people would best able to answer your questions. The International Sable Breeders Association has a page on color that is very interesting. (It is their contact info that ADGA provides.)

https://www.adga.org/index.php?opti...artregsable&catid=909:catadgagoats&Itemid=131

http://internationalsablebreedersassociation.vpweb.com/Color-Inheritance-Articles.html


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## ProvidenceHill (Sep 9, 2013)

Well, here's the part that confused me:​

_f. _
*Saanen*_-erect ears-no other color but white_
_or cream_
_g. _​​
*Sable*_-erect ears-any color except solid white_
_or solid light cream_​
It says that Sables can't be solid white or cream, but it does not say that Saanens have to be solid and not a mix of white and cream. So I guess she would be okay as a 50% recorded grade Saanen.​


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> You could email ADGA the pictures and say you are confused as to how to register her.
> I personally would say Sannan, as she is within the color allowed, and the white is hard to see. I believe there is even a thread here about someone's doe that has a white belt.


I would agree just based on what I have read. If the color difference is that subtle, it seems it should be a Saanen.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

It says that Sables can't be solid white or cream, but it does not say that Saanens have to be solid and not a mix of white and cream. So I guess she would be okay as a 50% recorded grade Saanen.
[/LEFT][/QUOTE]

I would agree with you....it does not say they must be SOLID....only white or cream. I'd send it in as a 50% recorded grade Saanen and see what they say about it. Let us know!!


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

ProvidenceHill said:


> Well, here's the part that confused me:​
> 
> _f. _
> *Saanen*_-erect ears-no other color but white_
> ...


The flip side of that is that Sables can't be white or cream. So does that mean that they can be white AND cream?:scratch: I kind of doubt it.

I think this this whole color issue is a mess. That's one of the reasons that I like Nigerian Dwarves.


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## Emzi00 (May 3, 2013)

Register her as a Saanen, so that you can breed up to American Saanen.

And to clear up the whole Saanen Sable thing. The decision to close the Sable herd book to Saanen to Saanen matings brought up a lot of conflict. This decision was kinda behind the scenes because of a few unhappy Saanen breeders. So recently the Sable breeders brought up the whole deal at the BOD meeting, and they've come to a compromise. Saanen to Saanen breedings that result in a Sable will ALWAYS be allowed to migrate to the Sable herd book. Saanen to Sable breedings will always be in the Experimental herd book, regardless of what the offspring looks like. Sables are a separate breed, even though they are the color variation of a Saanen, so therefore crossing of the breeds are experimental. Hope that clears some things up.


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## ProvidenceHill (Sep 9, 2013)

Thanks Emma, that helps a lot! I hadn't realized the Saanen-Saanen ruling had changed, the ADGA website still has the previous rule. I think that makes a lot more sense.


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

kccjer said:


> > It says that Sables can't be solid white or cream, but it does not say that Saanens have to be solid and not a mix of white and cream. So I guess she would be okay as a 50% recorded grade Saanen.
> 
> 
> I would agree with you....it does not say they must be SOLID....only white or cream. I'd send it in as a 50% recorded grade Saanen and see what they say about it. Let us know!!


I would tend to disagree. It clearly states that a Saanen must be white OR cream, and that Sables can NOT be solid. I read that as saying Saanen can only be one *or* the other, but not both. :scratch:

And since she *is* both, she must be Sable. :shrug:

I have always hated trying to figure out the meaning of the wording when dealing with registries...not just ADGA, they all word things in the vaguest way possible just to cause confusion! :sigh:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

very well explained Emma....I too would register as Saanen...she falls in the all white to cream...: )


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Well, if she is too much trouble to register, you could send her to me! (Just kidding around)
She is a pretty doe, looks like my grandson's 4-H grade doe. (That won best of udder over all the 
registered Saanens!) :grin:


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## ProvidenceHill (Sep 9, 2013)

Yes, isn't she sweet? I wasn't supposed to keep her but I couldn't resist. Plus she was my only doeling this year. Hoping for more like her next spring!


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

She's very sweet and beautiful! 

The application for registration filled out by the breeder for one of my Nigerians had her listed as a light buckskin. She actually has a few small areas of white -- what could have been listed as minimal white. I called ADGA and the woman I spoke with just said that if a judge questioned that it was the same goat, then I might want to look into getting it changed. She did not seem concerned. 

AGS could be a different story, but you only mentioned ADGA.

I'd register her as a Saanen and not worry about it unless the judges have issues with her color -- which seems highly unlikely.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I would call her Saanen. Too many times kids with *slight* coloring are registered Sable, but then produce white offspring when bred to a Sable buck which throws your whole breeding up program back into the experimental registry. Sables are goats with good obvious coloring, not coloring that may or may not be there depending on the length of coat. Also, if you look at pictures from Nationals you will see a lot of Saanens with dark skin, they look colored but the hair is actually white or cream when grown in. If a goat has a little too much coloring they may be discriminated against at a show but I find that highly unlikely unless she develops a large brown spot in her hair.


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## ProvidenceHill (Sep 9, 2013)

That's a great point, and helps a lot! I don't intend to breed her to anyhing other than Saanens so I am expecting lots of white babies from her in future. Thanks for the help.


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