# Dam raise VS bottle raise



## HarmonyLane (May 21, 2013)

I am new to goats....7 months into it but have started with 6 very nice does. 3 LaMancha's and 3 Alpines. I am leaning towards Dam raising, putting the kids up at night and milking only in the mornings. I plan to use the milk for personal/family use and make a little cheese and soap. I understand all about the CAE prevention and my Does have come from CAE free breeders (only 2 breeders). I plan to test for CAE each year and I plan to show. How many people show and Dam raise and is it working for you? any problems with does ramming the kids to death (like I have heard)? any advise on this subject would be appreciated. :help:


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Everyone has their own preference re: dam or bottle raised for their own reasons.
Our dam fed kids are just as friendly as any bottle kid minus the obnoxiousness.
As for ramming, do you mean inutero or after kids are born?
No one has ever hurt someone else's kid.
In almost 8 years only one abortion from being repeatedly rammed against a bldg by a herd queen.
It came back to bite her in the behind, she hasn't settled since.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

HarmonyLane said:


> I am new to goats....7 months into it but have started with 6 very nice does. 3 LaMancha's and 3 Alpines. I am leaning towards Dam raising, putting the kids up at night and milking only in the mornings. I plan to use the milk for personal/family use and make a little cheese and soap. I understand all about the CAE prevention and my Does have come from CAE free breeders (only 2 breeders). I plan to test for CAE each year and I plan to show. How many people show and Dam raise and is it working for you? any problems with does ramming the kids to death (like I have heard)? any advise on this subject would be appreciated. :help:


I dam raise and have had no problems.. This far.. I love my dam raised kids  not so pushy and in your face like bottle kids lol! 
I let mom and kids stay together day and night for two weeks.. At one week I start milking in the am.. Though they are still with mom so it's not much... But it's mostly to get my FFs used to being milked.. Then start a full fill at two weeks.. Then wean at 8-9 weeks..

Any other things you would like to know? Sorry, I know I am missing stuff.. It's been a long day lol


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## HarmonyLane (May 21, 2013)

*As for ramming, do you mean inutero or after kids are born?*

After the kids are born is what I meant, a friend said it has happened to a breeder friend of hers....and do you show your goats? does that pose a problem when you have to show and they are still on mama? that was the other "con" my friend brought to my attention; hauling the kids to the show and hoping in with mama and nurse her out before the show, and or leave them at home and struggle to get them to take a bottle. Any thoughts? I REALLY appreciate all the information, I can't tell you!!!:clap:


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

My guys have always been gentle with the babies.. They let them know they mean it.. But mine have never hurt any of the kids before.. 

When I have kids born/nursing in show season I either, put them in a crate for the trip to the show, and bring a dog Xpen for them and another for the does, and then after I milk the does half-3/4 way out I let them nurse.. Or I leave them home with a doe that I'm not showing and give them a bottle.. If they are hungry enough they will take a bottle.. Other wise.. That would be their loss for the day... :shrug: I have had some kids that are a little tougher to get on the bottle but after a night/day with out mom/food they take it no problem.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

We bring dams & kids all to a show if one happens during show season if dam is showable.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You can also separate at night and give them a bottle or a lamb bar in the morning before putting them out with mom. Then they know how to do both.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

goathiker said:


> You can also separate at night and give them a bottle or a lamb bar in the morning before putting them out with mom. Then they know how to do both.


That's a good Idea  I have had a few kids I had to put on bottles at a few weeks old and did that before switching them over totally to the bottle


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## HarmonyLane (May 21, 2013)

You have been most helpful :thumbup:, I think I will stick to my original plan and try the Dam feeding, I think I have 4 bred, two more to go....


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

You can always try it and if it doesn't work for you then try bottle raising  you just gotta find what works for you


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Oooh boy, here it comes! lol!

I chose to dam-raise. I don't think there is a right or wrong, but it's what works for me and I enjoy it very much. 

I test my herd for diseases yearly.

2 weeks, babes get all the milk, then I start separating at night and milking in the morning. At eight weeks, you can begin weaning.  

If you give the kids plenty of love and affection, I haven't been able to notice any sort of friendliness difference between dam and bottle raised kids (I've had both). I love that the dams can teach their kiddoes respect, and be there 24/7 for them, even when I can't. I've found that often dam-raised babies have a bit more respect for boundaries and personal space (this is just in my experience).

Do what you feel is best! If you try it doesn't work for you, you can always try a different way.  There are people who have bottle raised who switched to dam-raising, and vise versa. It's all about what works best for you.

PS. With the dam's udders, you just have to watch to make sure kids are nursing off of both sides. If not, you may have to even out the sides a bit. I've never had an udder ruined by kids -- I like to know that the udders can do a good job serving their original purpose, nursing!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

There are a couple of problems with dam raised kids on show goats. Its nearly impossible to keep the udder even. Be it 1 kid or 2 or 3, kids are going to take the side that is easiest for them to get milk outta. Its only when they are bigger will they each pick a side. Now with that being said, you dont want to keep odd number of kids on a doe. 1 is not enough and again, will take just one side. 3 is to many in that her udder will never get to expand and stretch cause it will never be full. Hand milking allows the udder to expand twice a day and that adds to a larger udder each new kidding season.

Its easy enough to teach a bottle baby how to eat of a lamb bar if done quick enough. I start training mine within a week and by 2 weeks they pretty much have it figured out and I dont have to keep putting them on the nipple when they pop off. Though, there are some that are slow learners


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

we dam raise....we put babies ina safe kids pen at night when they turn 2 weeks old..milk mom in the morning and let moms have babies the rest of the day... we do not show, so that is not an issue...we have onlyhad a few moms get uneven and we took care of that by milking to keep them even. Moms are always respectful of others kids..the worse the ever do is nudge then away...kids learn quick to stay away when moms tell them to. We also milk mom totally out in the morning...you dont have to leave some milk in the udder for baby..mom will hold up milk for them on her own..we never had a kid starve yet..lol..
been doing this for 8 years


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## HarmonyLane (May 21, 2013)

TDG-Farms said:


> There are a couple of problems with dam raised kids on show goats. Its nearly impossible to keep the udder even. Be it 1 kid or 2 or 3, kids are going to take the side that is easiest for them to get milk outta. Its only when they are bigger will they each pick a side. Now with that being said, you dont want to keep odd number of kids on a doe. 1 is not enough and again, will take just one side. 3 is to many in that her udder will never get to expand and stretch cause it will never be full. Hand milking allows the udder to expand twice a day and that adds to a larger udder each new kidding season.
> 
> Its easy enough to teach a bottle baby how to eat of a lamb bar if done quick enough. I start training mine within a week and by 2 weeks they pretty much have it figured out and I dont have to keep putting them on the nipple when they pop off. Though, there are some that are slow learners


This is a good point, and I DO want to test my hand at showing, so if I have 6 does now and they all get pregnant maybe that's not such a bad number to "try" dam raising, and showing. Keeping the udders even sounds challenging, but I guess you don't know until you try. 
I love Fiasco Farms information page and I believe this whole heartily...
Goat mothers love their kids, just as you would love your own children. To take the kids away, not only breaks their heart, it causes stress, which causes diseases to surface due to stress.
I also feel that raising the kid in an unnatural way (bottle feeding) causes stress. Kids need their mothers to love them and teach them. Without their mothers they become stressed, thus causing disease. Pasteurizing milk kills bacteria, and yes, it will kill the CAE virus, but it also kills the beneficial bacteria in the milk. Without this beneficial bacteria, the kids immune systems do not become as strong as it would on raw milk. Pasteurizing "cooks" the milk. I believe that kids especially need "uncooked" colostrum to get a proper start in life. This cooking destroys much of the nutrients and vitamins in the milk. Like I said, I am new, and this is my first time breeding, I have very good herd and plan on showing all of them, check with me next year and see if I'm still dam raising....ALL of the forums wisdom, knowledge I take in and take seriously what each one of you are saying. Don't hesitate to "tell me the way it is" LOL...


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

Another thing to consider is weaning. I had one doe raise her kids and the rest I put on a bucket. All did great until time to wean, the bucket babies no problem at all, those babies were with the herd when they were one month old and still on the bucket, all we had to do was start slowing down on the milk in the bucket. The dam raised ones different story. We seperated them for three months and when we tried to put them back with the herd, right back to mom. So that was a pain, had to tape my doe to dry her up, otherwise the kids would not leave her alone. If you have plenty of space to keep them seperated longer that would be great, if not, for me just better to bucket them.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I have a separate pen set up for kids... When we wean them they go in that pen till the next spring... I could probably put the. Together sooner.. But I'd rather less head butting/adding new goats while I have bred does... So it's easier for me that way.. But, the majority of my kids are sold by 9 weeks old so it isn't a major problem for me... And I find after the first few days of crying my dam raised kids quiet down and have no problems.. Where with my bottle kids yell when ever they see me or hear me.. It has been harder for us to wean those guys most of the time.. But that is just us.. I know people have trouble the other way around too.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Mine are usually sold before having to worry about weening late...those we retain will stay on mom as normal..put up at night..but that does decrease milk production...We also get every kid used to the bottle just incase, this saves a lot of hassle if we end up having to bottle raise one, we learned to do this one year when one of our does got very ill,,,she could not feed her kids, so we had to fight to get them to take a bottle, when mom was better and she was back to full milk, she took them back, but they never forgot what that bottle was for lol...also a good idea if someone wants a bottle baby...


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

ThreeHavens said:


> Oooh boy, here it comes! lol!
> 
> I chose to dam-raise. I don't think there is a right or wrong, but it's what works for me and I enjoy it very much.
> 
> ...


Love how you put this.!

I raise boers and will dam raise kids, like the majority of boer breeders. I want the doe to be able to do her job and I really don't have time to bottle kids, nor the patience to do it all the time.


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## black-smith (Jan 20, 2011)

I've gone back and forth on this too... found out it can be a very touchy subject!
I dam raised this year, milking them out completely once a day so as to keep my udders even. Then as the shows grew nearer I would separate the kids at night to see what the does udders looked like full.
It worked really well because my work schedule didn't allow time for bottle raising this year. The only problem I had with it, is that my best doe had a single buck kid who would only nurse on one side. Milking her out every day kept her udder even, but her teats were different sizes. Because he kept one side empty all the time the teat never filled with milk and never stretched out so at the show they were never the same shape or size. Don't know how to prevent that but if you have twins that should be ok!


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I feel very strongly about this, but no offense is intended.  Every situation is different and there is no cut-and-dried answer.
I do not show, but I do dam raise. The does really do love their kids, and personally I think it's cruel to take them away. For me this outweighs all other considerations _unless_ the doe is CAE positive.
Also, it is SO much less work to dam raise! I have supplemented with a bottle when kids are not getting enough, but that's all. I do test regularly and so far it's always been negative.

It is not bottlefeeding _per se_ that makes a kid friendly, but positive contact with humans. If you want a kid to be friendly, instead of preparing and feeding a bottle several times a day, try going out once every day and spending a few minutes with the kids. They will be just as friendly, and more respectful.

I've never had a kid seriously hurt by being butted, though it is of course possible. Those other does can really be mean! Overcrowded conditions would make it worse. My solution is to keep the new family separate from the herd until I judge they are ready (I have to go by my gut feeling on this - in my situation it's usually just a couple days) and then watch closely to make sure they aren't being picked on much.

Lovinglife is right in saying it can take the kids months to forget how to nurse!


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

If you want to dam raise, be sure to have your girls tested for CAE _before_ they kid. Even if they came from CAE free herds, and I am hoping they showed or gave you the results, do have them tested before they kid. Nothing would be worse than leaving the kids on then testing and finding out one of your girls is positive and just infected her kids, and possibly the other kids as sometimes they will try to steal milk.

As far as shows go, if I dam raised, I would bring a chainlink panel, sheet of plywood, tarp or something to put over the top of the pen you put the kids in. That way they can't jump out and get in with the doe. Before the show I would really try to watch your does and keep track of how many hours fill they have each morning so you can kind of "learn" how many hours before the show you need to separate the kids. Each doe will fill differently, so some might need kids taken away 14 hrs before the show to be full and some might need kids taken away at 8 hours before the show.

One problem some people have with does that dam raise is the doe not letting her milk down. Some does will hold their milk and not let it down to be milked out. I did have a kid killed by another doe one time. They were Boers. I was just out there about 10 minutes before and went out to find a dead kid  sent him in for an autopsy and it came back as blunt force trauma, so I can only assume that the other doe came over, didn't want him near her/her kids and slammed or threw him. Other than that one time, I have never had another problem with my Boers. I do try to keep each mom and babies separate for a few days to let them bond and to give the kids a chance to get used to their legs so when they get around the other does they can get away better. I have had does all kid together and did have one doe try to steal another does kids. Both were kidding at the same time and right next to each other.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

>>>>Goat mothers love their kids, just as you would love your own children. To take the kids away, not only breaks their heart, it causes stress, which causes diseases to surface due to stress.<<<<<:thumbup::leap::stars::wahoo::fireworks:
I agree 110%!!!!!

I could never just take a baby from its mother.
Like others have said, my kids are always very friendly as are my does. I like to give a few bottles early on cuz I have lots of grandchildren who just love to give bottles to kids. But it is always their own mother's raw milk. It also makes it nice if they need medication or supplements; they just suck it down with the milk.
I do not show so that is not an issue but my goat's udders are usually very even in the mornings.
I only know a few others on this site who say this though. I NEVER wean my kids. And that is partly because I am very lazy. If I feel like having a morning off; I leave kids with Mom and ask my DH to please feed before he leaves for work. This is also helpful if we want a little vacation. The kids keep up the milk supply while we are gone and we do not have to find someone to milk.
Recently we sold Star's remaining kid and ChaCha either weaned ChaChaJr or she weaned herself. Whatever the case; I now have to milk every single day!!!:GAAH: I can't wait for StarryNight to kid so I can dry these two off.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

LOL some of these comments made me chuckle  I guess for me starting out on a positive commercial sized herd where the pulling of babies from positive dams was not only the right and moral thing to do but the only choice as we were running strict cae/cl prevention programs. 

Now though with a clean herd we allow most twins to remain on their dams unless the need to pull them comes up for whatever reason. Its true, it is much easier to dam raise kids as long as you are spending that extra free time insuring the babies are tame. Pack Prospects are pulled. This isnt just to insure they are people tame but so they can relate to people as the food supplier and the herd boss. A 250+ lbs wether with horns and an attitude towards people is a dangerous thing.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

There are good and bad points about both methods. It will ALWAYS come down to what is best for your farm. I would assume that no matter which method you prefer, everyone would make sure all kids are getting what they need and doing what is necessary to keep kids alive and growing.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Well said Karen!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

ksalvagno said:


> There are good and bad points about both methods. It will ALWAYS come down to what is best for your farm. I would assume that no matter which method you prefer, everyone would make sure all kids are getting what they need and doing what is necessary to keep kids alive and growing.


100%! This can be a sensitive topic, because we ALL are doing what we can to do what's best for our babies, because we love them. Sometimes we can get ruffled if we feel like someone is telling us our way isn't best. But, the best way looks different for each farm. Dam raising may be right for me, but it isn't right for all, and I'm not going to judge someone who found another way that works for them and their goaties. :thumb:


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, I think this kidding season I might bottle feed for 2 reasons mainly. The people I got my ober buckling from said they pulled the kids at a week old, mom and kids cried for each other for a day or 2 then life moved on... (I'm a softy so we will see when the bleating begins) after a 3-4 weeks they moved the kids with the herd, and no one sucked on each other. I like this idea, because I'm trying to wean a 3 month old from mamma a boy oh boy it's tough.... Also, I like pushy bottle babies for some reason they are more personable. I liked the convenience of mom raising them though...but I figured I'll try it this way for a season and then decide


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## HarmonyLane (May 21, 2013)

janeen128 said:


> Well, I think this kidding season I might bottle feed for 2 reasons mainly. The people I got my ober buckling from said they pulled the kids at a week old, mom and kids cried for each other for a day or 2 then life moved on... (I'm a softy so we will see when the bleating begins) after a 3-4 weeks they moved the kids with the herd, and no one sucked on each other. I like this idea, because I'm trying to wean a 3 month old from mamma a boy oh boy it's tough.... Also, I like pushy bottle babies for some reason they are more personable. I liked the convenience of mom raising them though...but I figured I'll try it this way for a season and then decide


Well after reading all the different views, I have determined several things. 
1) It seems it is more convenient to dam raise and less time consuming. 
2) If you show it will be much more challenging trying to keep the udders looking like they should, and feeding the kids etc...(in fact this sounds hard to me) do I milk the doe myself so she is milked evenly and give that milk to the kids? and the whole timing thing of when she will be full and letting down of the milk sounds difficult to me. I guess because I have never shown, this is foreign to me. 
3) I believe... It depends on the owners own individual personality if they like a kid bottle raised or dam raised.
4) CAE prevention CAN be done using either method. 
5) You really don't know, until you try one method first.
6) This forum has many good people and has been super helpful!!


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

HarmonyLane said:


> 2) If you show it will be much more challenging trying to keep the udders looking like they should, and feeding the kids etc...(in fact this sounds hard to me) do I milk the doe myself so she is milked evenly and give that milk to the kids? and the whole timing thing of when she will be full and letting down of the milk sounds difficult to me. I guess because I have never shown, this is foreign to me.


I just watch to make sure both sides are being used.. If they are then I don't worry about it.. If I notice one side getting uneven I milk it out twice a day.. We keep the milk for ourselves.. Or give it to bottle kids we may possibly have.. Or our chickens like it as do the cats and I'm sure the dog would too lol!
And to separating the kids earlier for a show so she can fill enough.. I find it no different then knowing when to go out and milk a doe before a show.. Most of the time 14/15hrs should be ok... Maybe a little more depending on the goat  you will get the hang of that either way you raise.. It's nice to have a mentor to help you through and such... I milk my guys out late afternoon the day before a show where I milk 7-8 at night all other days..


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

HarmonyLane said:


> 4) CAE prevention CAN be done using either method.


If you have a CAE positive doe prevention _can not_ be done by dam raising. If all are negative, then yes you can dam raise and not have to worry about CAE, but if you have any positives and want to dam raise the others and pull the kids from the positive doe you would have to keep her separate so there is no chance a kid will try to steal milk from her and get infected.


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## WalshKidsGoats (Nov 27, 2012)

We dam raise and have found that to be the best way for us. We use the same technique as a lot of people that have already commented do but I'll repeat it anyway 
Once the kids are one week old we start milking their dams while the kids are on them just to get the does used to being milked. At two weeks old we separate the kids at night and milk in the morning. The kids then go back on their dams until the following evening when they are separated again.
My does are all CAE free so I have no problem keeping the kids with them.
I also show and I haven't found there to be a problem with uneven udders even with several of my does having singles. You do have to watch it though but it's usually within the first few weeks where a single kid may only use one side, after that they usually figure out how to use both sides. 
I like by dam raised kids personalities WAY better than my bottle babies. The only bottle babies I have were bought from other breeders. Bottle babies can tend to be pushy and in your face! As a whole dam raised kids are just as friendly but more respectful than bottle babies. That's just my experience. We give our kids plenty of love and attention so they are in no way unfriendly.
Oh, and with dam raising you are not as tied down. If we have to leave for a few days all the kids just stay with their moms and the person feeding our animals doesn't have to learn how to milk AND bottle feed.
Anyway, that's my $.02


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## GoatieGranny (Jul 26, 2013)

We also allow our dams to raise their kids. We separate them at night after two weeks, milk mama in the morning and then put them back together. We find that mama goat usually does daytime weaning when it's right for her. It's not going to bother us if the kids continue to take a sip here and there as long as they are happy and healthy, and it's not affecting our milking in a big way. (Which it never has.) We spend time with each of our goats every day and they are all very friendly and respectful of us. They come when they are called by name, they know they are loved, and they know what "No" means. 

We've never had CAE, worm issues, or mastitis. (Or any health problems, for that matter.) 

But as others have said, you may want to try both to see what works best for you.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

Dam raising never worked out for me.

Some of my early goats were CAE positive and I started dam raising. Later I realized just how much less of a hassle bottle feeding was for me.


First is obviously the health aspect. 

There's CAE obviously, then there is the hard udder syndrome that most think is CAE but you will find it in dam raised goats also that are CAE free.
Then some forms of mastitis can be passed from the dam to the kid. Mycoplasma can be passed in the milk. 

Then there is the act of nursing. Besides the uneven udders constant nursing leaves the teat orifice open all day so more likely to be pick up mastitis. I had a friend who raised all her does pasteurized but let the buck kids, who were going for meat to nurse. She could never get her somatic cell count down till she started feeding the bucks too.

Unless your udder is totally clean dam raised kids are more likely to pick up worms or coccidia. Johnnes is often passed by nursing contaminated udders. 

Then there is the whole aspect of family groups. When I dam raised the goats would form family groups and fight others out of the feeders so I had to make more feeders so everybody could eat. When they are bottle fed they are all equal.

When you feed kids every day you notice right off if they are not nursing appear off etc.

Also when I finally weaned the kids when I dam raised I'd see a huge drop in milk production. Not so with the feeding the kids.

I always had a lot of trouble with coccidia, worms and other health problems in my kids when I dam raised.

Then there is the aspect of having kids running all over your barn vs having them separate. It's just a way more serene thing to keep them separate, plus you can sell them earlier.

Far as making the kids tamer there's no difference I dont' think. I've seen wild bottle fed kids and super tame dam raised ones.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Curious, since I'm trying to wean my 3 mo old wether, how long does it take for them to stop sucking? I've had him and 2 doelings in my barn since Sunday, and mom went to go graze with the rest of the herd. Today I switched it up a bit mom and her sister is in the barn while the other 3 are outside with the rest of the herd. How long should I keep them separated? They are still bawling for each other even today, so that isn't very encouraging to me.... I could sell the wether, but I was hoping to put him in with my bucks in the spring, but I'm thinking selling him would be best....


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Id be ready for that to last a month or so.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I tape my does' teats so the kids get weaned, can still be with their moms, and I can milk them  Works really well!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> Id be ready for that to last a month or so.


Okay, thanks! This is one reason I will be bottle raising this season


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Scottyhorse said:


> I tape my does' teats so the kids get weaned, can still be with their moms, and I can milk them  Works really well!


I'm willing to try this... Where so you get this tape? TSC? I'm heading there tomorrow am anyway, so I'll give it a try. He's a determined bugger that is for sure.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Some people use electrical tape. I've never done it so not sure


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Its sport/medical tape. White.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

\


janeen128 said:


> I'm willing to try this... Where so you get this tape? TSC? I'm heading there tomorrow am anyway, so I'll give it a try. He's a determined bugger that is for sure.


It's micro pore tape.


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## black-smith (Jan 20, 2011)

CAE can be the scary part about dam raising, and a lot of people would probably give me heck for this, but when I bottle feed I ALWAYS feed raw milk. I test my does every year for CAE and If I ever have one test positive I would pull the kids immediately and feed a negative does raw colostrum and then go from there... I've never liked the idea of pasteurizing milk. 
As for does loving their babies, I definitely agree. Though it's not always the case and I think it depends on the doe too. I have a doe that would be completely heart broken if I took her kids, and others who seem to have very little attachment or interest in them.
Try it one way, if it works stick to it, if not, try something else


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