# Conformation debate....



## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

This came up in another thread, and rather than hijacking that thread, I thought I'd start a new thread.

Slightly controversial, but a subject I'd like to discuss and get different opinions on.

Amount of "brisket" desirable on a Boer Goat. I'm referring to the brisket bone protruding forward of the legs in a profile view (heavy fronted) vs being even with the legs (clean fronted). 

In my opinion...clean fronted is most attractive with the neck coming straight up out of the shoulder. Not to be confused with base width. 

I believe a Boer should be wide based and pulled apart in their skeleton (seen while in front of the Goat). If the rib shape is correct, the shoulders will lay in correctly, the skeleton will be pulled apart, the chest will be wide, and the legs will be square out it's corners, toes pointing forward.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I prefer a cleaner fronted goat. It needs to have some meat and width there but not too much or else they get sloppy and unbalanced. In every animal, no.matter the type, you want balance.


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## FaRmEr FrEaK (Jul 7, 2012)

I like the big chested wide front ended goats but they look better when they are smooth and clean so like tighter not loose if that makes sense


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I like some brisket there, not to much though.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

What I want to know is what the judge wants/likes. 
Is this what you mean by more brisket, BCG?

http://www.sunshineboergoats.com/images/Game On 1.jpg

And this clean fronted/less brisket?

http://bvboergoats.com/bucks/2DOX CUGER.html

That "Game On" buck wins nearly every time he's shown and his Daddy has the same chest, so I don't know. In my own herd, does that have more brisket don't have as wide a chest floor.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

More brisket and less brisket yes, that is it.

It all depends on the judge. All can be different.

If it is a wether judge, they don't like the big brisket at all. 

All goats have different brisket sizes and widths in the chest. So, it is really about each goat and how they are put together. I think a nice brisket on a breeding buck is nice. Different tastes and preferences.
Know what the judge likes before you go to the show. Look at the winners, under his/her judgment, then you will know.

The goat has to be well put together and not have too much brisket, that over powers the rest of the goat.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I like that answer! Depends on the goat and judge


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Yes, it very much so depends on the judge. However all judges should stay on track of what the breed standards, and judging procedures are.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree but how much brisket isn't really in the Boer standard. There are certain things that are subjective. Like teat structure. Some prefer 1x1 and others 2x2... if two goats are equal a judge could use that to break ties


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Tenacross said:


> What I want to know is what the judge wants/likes.
> Is this what you mean by more brisket, BCG?
> 
> http://www.sunshineboergoats.com/images/Game%20On%201.jpg
> ...


Yes. Good examples. Thank you. And I agree with the fact that it just depends judge to judge.

Out here in Oregon, we seem to get a lot of judges that want goats with more brisket. While that may be standard in dairy goats, I'm getting tired of hearing it about my Boers. One lady judging a 4h show actually stopped the show and came over to me at the edge of the ring to "explain" that my goats will not be able to walk properly without a brisket that extended at least 4 inches beyond the front legs. She also told me that they needed to be deeper in their chest floor in order to develop a rack. Huh???? That lady needs to go back to conformation school. LOL! Days like these really make me appreciate all the good evaluators out there.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm on the diary goat side but I don't like huge briskets. A bit is good but allot looks weird to me. I like it to flow with the front of the shoulder maybe a little in front and below but not when you have it a few inches past the fore of the shoulder when looking from the side. I like it slightly rounded not like a square.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I love the look of a strong brisket, but I'm not sure what serves the better purpose for the goat. I like to know how to improve the breed by what is best for them, not just what I like visually.


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

I don't really care for a huge brisket either, but I agree with ThreeHavens on wanting to improve the breed..if big briskets make a more functional animal..then I'll just have to get over not liking them. I personally like it to be strong, but smoothly blending into the neck. Not boxy or fat looking like I've seen some does. Although I think the pronounced brisket looks good on Nigies, so maybe I'm just crazy!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Back to the funtioning purpose of a brisket.
A goat needs depth of brisket and width; they need a comfortable place to store the heart and lungs, important organs to help sustain many years to come, you want a goat that's deep and wide into chest floor with moderate strength of brisket . A goat's front legs and shoulders shouldn't be growing straight out of its neck, in my opinion, as there is a funtion for the brisket, and I was taught a moderate brisket is what you look for as far as briskets go.
In dairy goats anyway, meat goats are judged differently, look for a goat with a moderate brisket.

My :2cents:, there if you want it, take it or leave it.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Thank you, Little bits n' pieces, that was helpful.


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

Thank you Little Bits n Pieces  I've never really known what the brisket was for..I just thought it was something for pretty show goats. It makes sense that I actually has a purpose.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Back to the funtioning purpose of a brisket.
> A goat needs depth of brisket and width; they need a comfortable place to store the heart and lungs, important organs to help sustain many years to come, you want a goat that's deep and wide into chest floor with moderate strength of brisket . A goat's front legs and shoulders shouldn't be growing straight out of its neck, in my opinion, as there is a funtion for the brisket, and I was taught a moderate brisket is what you look for as far as briskets go.
> In dairy goats anyway, meat goats are judged differently, look for a goat with a moderate brisket.
> 
> My :2cents:, there if you want it, take it or leave it.


I'm sorry, but who ever taught you that was wrong. Organs do not rest in the brisket. The heart rests in the "heart girth" just below the point of the elbow.... in the rib cage. The lungs just above. As I stated in my opening statement, rib shape that is round and pulled apart gives these vital organs more than enough room and in turn, give the Goat more skeleton to develop a nice wide rack and chest. Now I do agree that if the Goat is to narrow and flat sided that the vitals may be crowded.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I know the heart and lungs are not IN the brisket, the brisket is adding to the capacity. As it is connecting to the sternum and rib cage. The organs can quite easily move, as they are attached by next to nothing. A skeleton is hollow, all throughout its hollow, more frame, more room for vital organs.


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

Does a large brisket allow them to take deeper breaths? I've noticed that my buck who is a tad narrow through the chest with little brisket seems to run more slowly than my two wethers who have a much wider chest and deeper brisket. I thought that the buck was slower because of his dangling jewels but if depth and brisket let them breathe more deeply it would make sense that he gets out of breath. 

Granted, our run (and we do run!) back to the barn from pasture is about two football field lengths, but the wethers never seem out of breath.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

The brisket is the equivalent of our chests, an where the sternum is, is the chest floor.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Are we talking about depth in the ribcage or the brisket muscle ?


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I don't think the brisket muscle has as much to do with it as the overall depth does.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

A wide chest and moderate size brisket allows for the lungs to expand more, as there is more room for them to expand to full capacity.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

No, not the brisket muscle, the bone. I don't want a doe who's brisket is all meat. I want it to be the bone structure.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Ok the brisket is a muscle at the chest floor.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

No.....


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

The brisket is not on the chest floor of any animal, in cattle, the brisket, is what I jokingly call the dewlap. But the brisket is different in cattle than other animals, in cattle the brisket is actually a meat cut.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Dani-1995 said:


> Ok the brisket is a muscle at the chest floor.


Yes I agree. There is a cut of meat on the brisket...Goat brisket.

As for the bone structure of the brisket bone...I respectfully disagree with Little Bits and prefer a clean fronted Boer.


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