# help please



## SeveNeveS (Feb 23, 2013)

i bought a Pyr - he lived on a farm that had every breed of livestock you can think of - birds of all kinds - goats - horses of every size - alpaca - llama - cattle - you get the idea - and there were probably a dozen of these dogs running around - Brew is now 10 m old - was 8 when i got him - he has already saved the herd from fox - GREAT YIPEE - however - he chases the goats - but not in a mean way... i yell his name and he stops immediately but as soon as i turn my back... but that's not the real problem - WE SCREWED UP - and i realize it was a human screw up and i feel horrible so please dont chastize - anyway - our first kidding of the season was rough - 2 hours labor with nothing to show - had to go in and get a breech doe - then she delivered a normally presented buck - and just when we thought she was done she pushed and out popped the tail of a still born buck - well, i'm all shaky and so is hubby and son and we're cleaning babies and cleaning momma and all that birthing includes - we get a feed bag and put the dead baby in it - everything is fine - i bring babies in house because its durn cold out - and leave hubby and son to finish up - about a half hour after they come in the house my son realizes that he never disposed of the feed bag and runs to the barn - and finds Brew chewing on the corpse.... that was 3/1/13 - today 3/8/13 another doe has a kid while we are out of town - OF COURSE - we come in and the new momma (twilight) and the first momma (razz) are in the barn with the baby behind them and the dog is standing in the door way - all SEEMS ok... put Twi on the stand to milk her and her ear and eye are a bit bloody - i'm sure they are teeth marks from Brew - what do i do? :mecry:I've wanted a Pyr for over 10 years and was just now able to get one and now i've screwed that up! I am so totally heart broken...:mecry::worried:


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## Tayet (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh no.. I'm so sorry. I've never had any kind of dog before so I can't help there, but I am SO sorry he wasn't what you wanted.


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## sunshinegoat (Feb 7, 2012)

If you want to keep him you certainly can BUT you have your work cut out for you. IF you and your family can put in the time and discipline it takes to recondition him. It may cost you money in good trainers but if this is what you want it may be worth it. A lot of people are going to tell you to get rid of the dog or put him down. If you do that's your choice but I believe all dogs can and will change but it up to their humans to help them.
I would contact a dog BEHAVIORIST..not an obedience trainer. Talk to your local extension office and see if they know of anyone in your area who trains herding, guardian or any other working dog. This is a place to start.
Good luck


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

Get a shock collar you don't need to shock him but once or twice and then the warning beep will work wonders. You put it down on the lowest setting my husband tried it on himself up on 4 so we knew where to adjust it to we keep ours on a 2 and if we beep our jack Russell he does what he's told, I've never even shocked him, my sister in-law has only zapped him every now and again, he's really her dog so.... But anyways it turned our rowdy JRT into a great little dog!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

First of all he is still a pup. The first incident he was doing what he was suppose to; dispose of carcass.
Then you have round two. It could have been puppy stuffbut not acceptable.
You are going to have to be there next kidding. Growl "NO!" or "Leave It!", whatever command you use, baring your teeth the same time if he gets too close. You must be alpha.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Can you contact the breeders and ask for advice?


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## Bellaboo (Mar 4, 2013)

Keep the dog away form the goats and always keep an eye on him


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It sounds like he is in the teenager stage and needs to be worked with a lot. I have seen a lot of posts like yours when the dogs are around that age. They do grow out of it but you have to work with them.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, Constant supervision until the dog gets out of that puppy stage.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

From my observation of the several dogs we have had, they definitely see a difference between chasing/killing a live animal and eating a dead one.
I feed chicken heads to our dogs and they never even look wrong at the live chickens.
So I don't think the eating the dead kid was as terrible as you might think. But then, I truly am no expert - and I've never had a LGD. Just putting in my :2cents:
I hope you can get it worked out! :hug:


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## SeveNeveS (Feb 23, 2013)

thanx everyone - you have given me hope - i was absolutely certain in my heart that i was going to have to rehome him to a non farm home - i will work with him - he is smart - the first time i gave him food with real "human" gravy on it he growled at me and my son like he was gonna rip us apart! scared the be jeeperes outta me! one day of work and that has never happened since - i honestly dont know how twilight got hurt - i wasnt there - we came home and my son went to pasture and came back and said "duncan and dandy are still upstairs, right?" "yes" "um... there's a baby in the barn" ~~MAD DASH~~ lol - anyway - Twi has a scratch down one ear and a mark under her eye on the same side - i dont know for sure that it was Brew - i just know that Twi and Razz had the baby behind them and were giving Brew the evil eye...


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

I would keep a close eye on him BUT a LGD's job is to keep the herd safe from predators. This includes disposing of carcass's that would bring them looking. As long as he doesn't attempt to kill a live newborn I would say he's doing his job. Also be aware that LGD's will try to stimulate a weak goatling by nosing and licking it.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

You dog may just be being a puppy and should mature out of it. We have 2 Pyrenees. The female lives with the sheep flock and occasionally chased/played with the lambs when she was a pup. The male lives with the goats and is very playful at a year old. He chased the kid goats all laat summer. I got him to the point that he wouldn't do it if I was around, but when he thought I couldn't see, he'd start in. I tried a shock collar, but because of his thick mane it didn't always work. So every time I caught him being naughty, I would lock him out in the pasture by himself. He eventually learned, and now he just runs circles around the goats when he gets excited and they pay him no mind. He eats the after birth when the goats kid and lets them climb all over him. He's maturing and turning into a really nice lgd.


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

I wouldn't be too worried about your puppy. At 18 months old, I caught my Pyr eating a stillborn baby. I corrected her at the time, but began really watching her with the goats. I noticed that she would pal up with a doe about 24 hours prior to kidding. Once labor started, she would chase all the other goats and dogs away from the expectant mom. Sometimes she was pretty aggressive with the other animals. She'd stay close until she got the afterbirth. I ultimately separated her from the pregnant goats because I was worried like you are about the possibility of her eating a live kid or hurting another goat that got too close to the delivery.

This year, she's 2.5, and that extra maturing has complety changed her. She has actually saved 4 kids this year. When a goat is in labor, she waits patiently at a distance, and will only move in to clean up after the doe has her kids up and moving. As far as stillborns go, I've only had one this year, and she wouldn't touch it.

Good luck with your dog.


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## motdaugrnds (Mar 20, 2013)

I totally agree with SCRMG and others in that your dog is still a puppy and, though has a lot to learn, is still demonstrating behavior normal to that age. (My "mix breed" dog who protected the goats would behave in a similar manner, i.e. cleaning, though I never saw her eat the afterbirth or a dead goat carcass; so I've come to the conclusion any dog that has learned to protect goats and "think" for themselves just might do what you are experiencing, especially at such a young age.) Thus, I wouldn't worry so much either; just spend a little more quality time with that pup while it is around the goats, especially at kidding time.


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## SeveNeveS (Feb 23, 2013)

yesterday saw him being overly aggressive towards a doe - these two, brewster and karina, have never gotten along - she beats the tar outta him every chance she gets -anyway - i thought it was above and beyond - so i put him in the stall over night - i let him out this morn and cauaght him chasing again - caught him and tried to put him in a stall and he snapped at me then snapped at karina right after - did not connect with either of us but i'm beginning to think i have bit off mroe than i can chew - i think he needs to be re-homed with someone more able to handle him :/


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## ogfabby (Jan 3, 2013)

I never tolerate a dog who snaps at a human. I have a pit that I have to keep away from my goats. They got out one day and ventured into his area...the chase was on. I caught him before he was able to do any major damage...tackled him as he launched towards one of my does and got an ear. I beat the tar out of the dog to get him to let go. The thing is...he NEVER once snapped or growled at me. Ever. If he had...doggie heaven for him. His saving grace was the fact that he didn't snap at me, the goat got out and into his area, there was no major damage, and as soon as he let go I led him away without a struggle. A dog that snaps at a human without provocation has no business adding to my feed bill. Sounds like he needs a swift lesson in who's boss!


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

I know you like your dog, but I think you are right and he needs a home that is better suited to his needs. He sounds like he needs a more experienced handler to get him on track. Maybe you can trade with someone who has an older LGD they've already trained and wants a new one? 

It's no one's fault and I'm sure he's a good dog, but just like with horses not every animal is appropriate to every experience level.


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## animalfamily (Nov 23, 2012)

I agree with the above 2 posts. I was all fine with the goats thing, thinking you could work with him, but a dog that is aggressive with humans is _way _different. When our dogs were pups they were taught immediately "who's boss", what would and wouldn't be tolerated. You must always be the "alpha" in your pack, no matter the species of animal you are dealing with. This dog does not see you as that and obviously has vicious tendancies. I'm with you he may need rehomed before he _really _hurts someone or one of your animals. ;(


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

One of the hardest things in life is knowing your own limitations. Your dog is not a lost cause for becoming an LGD, but he is going to need a strong alpha and experienced LGD owner to get there. Snapping at you is completely unacceptable, highly unusual for a Pyr, and a clear sign that he does not view you as the alpha.

It sounds like it would be in the best interest for both of you if you could find an experienced home for him. Please don't let this alter your desire for having an LGD. It really is a rewarding experience, I love my LGDs, and couldn't imagine not having them in the pens. Perhaps you should look for a LGD rescue near you. They may be able to take and help your current dog, and match you with a better fit. I usually recommend that people start with an older, experienced dog. Puppies are cute, but the lessons an older dog will teach you are invaluable. When you are comfortable with the older dog, you can bring a puppy in. The dog will train a puppy better than any person could.


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## motdaugrnds (Mar 20, 2013)

SeveNeveS, I totally agree with the last few posters in that the dog does not see you as BOSS. It will need a great deal of training and it is obvious you are wise enough to know that needs to come from someone other than yourself. (If you are for sure you want an LGD on your place, may I suggest you get some training for yourself first. I mean that in the kindest way. A human who does not permit themselves to be strong/firm with expectations of obedience when working with animals, especially most of the LGD breeds, is better off with a "family" dog; so learning how to be firm with the tone of your voice and your emotional state is a must if you're going to be successful in becoming the alpha/leader.)


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

Here's a thought that will go against everything you have ever read about raising LGDs. If you do not want to rehome your dog, or cannot find a home for him, enroll him in a basic obedience course. I know the prevailing belief is a LGD needs to bond just with his livestock, but the dog needs an alpha as well. An obedience course will teach you the basics of communicating with your dog, and will teach him that he should look at you as the alpha. This will not change his natural instincts to protect his charges, or his ability to think for himself, but it will help him understand that when you are present, YOUR word is the final word. In a pack environment, there is a hiarchy, and I've seen that my LGD alpha will actually direct the pack. If the alpha is removed, another dog will fill the role. When I am there, I am the alpha. The prevailing belief that an LGD needs limited interaction with it's handler is based on the utilization of large free range operations, and non human aggressive dogs. This does not translate well when you start running more aggressive dogs on 5-20 acer hobby farms. That is a debate for another time. What I'm getting at is, an LGD will never be the star of an obedience compitition, but some basic obedience classes may help you better define the handler/LGD relationship with your dog if rehoming is not an option.


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## motdaugrnds (Mar 20, 2013)

SCRMG has it just right!

I know some LGD owners frown on the LGD's getting extra training from the human; but in your situation a basic obedience class will not only teach the dog, it will teach you as well.


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## SeveNeveS (Feb 23, 2013)

I understand the whole alpha thing - I'm not new to dogs - my husband has a black and tan bitch that he hunts and she looks to me more than to him 

There's something about Brew's eyes... I'm sure its just me. I think I'm getting old and just don't trust myself the way i used to. My son's GSD, another large breed, looks to me as his alpha. 

I have honestly thought of getting a donkey and rehoming Brew. He does NOT want to be a house pet. He thoroghly enjoys the run of the pasture and being 'big man' on campus. I think he looks to my son as alpha to a point. Ryan can get him to do things I can't. Ryan was the one that put him in the stall that first night. 

I know he's a pup but he's just so dang BIG! I know part of my problem. At least I think I do. I've never had a problem with any animal. Cattle, horse, dog, goat, etc. I've always had the upper hand, so to say. Then a very solid, very big togg yearling buck broke out of his stall and pinned me to the ground and beat the hell out of me. I think I've lost my confidence, and as I type this i'm crying. It happened just a few months ago. I had another large, older togg buck here that was a big baby. But i was still extremely leary of him even tho he wouldnt have hurt a fly. 

I want to take him to the vet, Brew, and get his shots and get him fixed and i'm too chicken to do that without Ryan around.... Maybe its not brew that needs training. Maybe its me.  I"ve never been scared of an animal before until Bo (togg)


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

^Oh wow, after an experience like that, it's no wonder you've lost your confidence with animals.
I feel your pain. I'm not a very good swimmer, and a year or two ago I had a scary experience swimming in a creek with running water. It was beyond my depth and I was afraid I would drown. Of course I made it to shore (or I wouldn't be telling this story, LOL) but I was afraid to swim for a while after that. But this summer I am determined to not only learn to swim well, but to enjoy it again. I can't let the water beat me. 
Maybe it's the same with you. Maybe you need to prove to yourself that YOU CAN make animals respect you. Sure, that Togg buck was "beyond your depth," but that doesn't mean you'll never be able to make any animal respect you again. :hug:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if you dont trust him...then follow your gut..you have been around animals long enough to know there is something wrong...Trust yourself!


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

I completely understand the loss of confidence in yourself. I went through a similar experience with horses not too long ago (falling hurts more as you get older) . It really took A LOT of work retraining myself before I was able to confidently work with my young 'uns again.

Your post was very heartfelt and deeply self analyzing. There aren't many people who can look inside themselves, and be as honest as you are about what they see. That level of honest self awareness will pull you through this.

Here's the bottom line, I can tell you are to some degree afraid of your pup. As long as you have reservations about him, he will always view himself as the alpha in your relationship. This is not good for either one of you, and will ultimately lead to trouble for both of you. I really think you either need to rehome him or take him to school. 

Years ago, one of my dogs became highly aggressive. I couldn't trust him, and was afraid that I was going to have to put him down. I had never had this problem with a dog, and I thought there was something wrong with him mentally (this came on around the 10 month mark when he was going through puberty). One day I was walking through PetSmart and they happened to be finishing an obedience class. I asked the teacher if I could talk with her. We talked for about an hour, and the more we talked, the more I realized that I was the problem, not the dog. Before I left, she told me to enroll the dog in their course before I made a decision. I remember her saying, "if I can't help you, and I think there really is something wrong with your dog, I will go with you to put him down". Two weeks later, I brought this ferocious, muzzled, nearly out of control dog to class. Ten weeks later, we walked quietly, unmuzzled out of class. Ten years later, he's one of the best dogs I ever had, and I can't believe how close I had been to putting him down. The problems had been on me, and that class taught me how to work through them on my end.

From that day on, all my dogs, whether they are pets or LGDs go through school, and I learn more with each dog and course. There are purist out there who would say this would ruin an LGD, but it hasn't yet. My dogs guard my goats with their lives (I've seen it), and my dogs obey me.


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## motdaugrnds (Mar 20, 2013)

OMG now that experience would put a dent in most people's confidence around animals.

I encourage you to find an obedience class as SCRMG suggested. I've never had such an experience as you and I do know many LGD breeders do not recommend such a class; however, I think you could expect only a positive outcome from such training (for your dog as well as for yourself).

Good luck.


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## SeveNeveS (Feb 23, 2013)

i live out in the sticks so Petsmart is out of the question. The biggest "pet" store we have around here is Tractor Supply. LOL. I will contact the local cooperative extension / 4H office and get ahold of my vet. Ryan has school off all next week so I plan on making vet appointments anyway. I really don't think Brewster is a bad dog. He runs a couple of my goats but I think that's a puppy/puberty thing. I hate being afraid. It really sucks! But I know I am. Thanks everyone. I really appreciate all of this. I"ve got some phone calls to make and some heavy decisions. I guess the biggest thing is, whether or not i rehome Brewster, I need to regain my confidence around animals or i may as well get out of it completely. I dont raise minis anymore, and while my girls are very loving, they are standard size and require standard sized bucks. Again, Thank You, All. <3


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

Good luck. I understand the sticks, right now I'm 2 hours away from a Petsmart, but talk with your vet and local cooperative... the course I use now is offered by our local park service, you may have something similar. I think your right, you're dealing with your dogs terrible teens right now, and with the right guidance he can be put on the right path. Unfortunately, as long as you are intimidated by him, you are not going to get the best results


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## motdaugrnds (Mar 20, 2013)

Yes, you are thinking real good in considering, not only your dog, but yourself as well. I admire anyone who can own their own weaknesses and set out to strengthen and overcome those weaknesses. Good luck with that dog.


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## animalfamily (Nov 23, 2012)

Ultimately it is your decision to make, and you will make the right one. One point [and please forgive me if it has already been made] is that dogs obviously can _sense _fear, and as long as you are feeling afraid they will sense it, you can't hide it. As long as that fear exists unfortunately the dog won't see you as the alpha. It's a very difficult situation you are in, and we hope it works out in the end whichever path you choose.


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## Ember (May 23, 2011)

We have a 0 tolerance policy on our farm. 

We had a rot/Shepard mix that never bothered anyone or any of the animals one day he got out and killed our Pygmy doe her week old buckling and went after the doeling as I caught him

He ran out of the barn and went after our boer does. He then charged my husband and was meet with 2 rounds out of a shotgun. 

We do not tolerate dogs attacking livestock. Mistaken or not. Once they get the taste of blood it's hard to break. 

We put way to much time and money into these animals to let a bad apple destroy it

May not be a popular post of mine but its the truth. 

Maybe see if the owner will take him back


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## MisWhit (Mar 15, 2013)

Also, I'm sure he knows you're scared! I have this problem with geese! My 3 yr old bosses them around but my 8 yr old is deathly afraid and they bite him...not my 3 yr old!


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