# Felony "Animal Cruelty"



## Damfino

I have a friend who is facing down a felony "animal cruelty" charge for shooting two of her neighbor's pit bulls that came on her property recently. She killed one and winged the other. My poor friend has been at the mercy of these dogs for more than a year. Her neighbor had a pit bull that had puppies and he never found homes for them or bothered to contain them. These dogs have been menacing the entire neighborhood ever since and my friend has felt like a hostage in her own home. Her own dog was attacked last year and had extensive vet bills. The dogs recently cornered an elderly person in their neighborhood. The police and animal control have been out numerous times and the owner has been warned repeatedly, but nothing has ever actually been done about the dogs. Finally my friend ended up shooting two of the dogs when they came on her property, but because they weren't actually _in the act_ of attacking her or her animals, the cop slapped her with an animal cruelty charge!

If dogs with a violent history have been running in a pack and menacing the neighborhood, I don't see how shooting them on your property is cause for a criminal charge! If you wait until they are already attacking you, it's probably too late to grab your gun. And if you wait until they're attacking your animals, the odds of you accidentally hitting your own pet is really high. I'm angry that the police would charge my friend with animal cruelty when they know full well that these dogs have been threatening the neighborhood for over a year and have already seriously injured my friend's dog. My friend is afraid to go out of her house unarmed, she's afraid to ride her horse from her own property, she can't let her dog outside unsupervised, she can't let her grandsons come over to her house and if they do they can't play outdoors. It's a nightmare situation. My friend hired a lawyer and I hope she wins her case, but if she loses she could have her animals taken away from her. I can't believe the law is this backwards! Just had to vent...


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## AndersonRanch

People are so out of touch with reality especially when it comes to dogs any more. How did they even know she was the one that shot them? I’m not a liar but around here no matter what the story is we never saw anyone’s dogs. 
I sure hope that she gets a judge that has some freaking common sense in this and can see that your friend was in the right. I gave 2 stray dogs a pass before and it back fired badly so I am totally on your friends side. Her and her animals well being is more important then dogs with irresponsible owners!


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## Moers kiko boars

Maybe as a friend. You could puchase her "animals for a sum of $1.00 each". But leave them on her property, under her care, until this is finished. Then she wouldnt have any animals to lose. ( per say) but next time. Dont tell anyone who shot what dog..just bury it.


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## Damfino

The problem is the neighbors heard her shoot the dogs and the wounded one ran straight home from her house so there was no possibility of "shoot, shovel, shut up." 

Luckily the lawyer thinks my friend will win her case, but it's frustrating that she has to deal with this at all.


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## ksalvagno

That is terrible. Why do the jerks seem to get away with things. I pray your friend wins her case.


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## GoofyGoat

Good grief, those cops should have taken a better look at the history of the dogs. She's already been terrorized by them and had extensive vet bills for her dog who they attacked. I'd of done the same thing. 
I really hope she wins this! It's ridiculous that it's even gotten this far. I agree with @Moers kiko boars that she should temporarily "sell" her critters to protect them just in case the worst happens and she gets a city slicker judge or worse a judge who transferred from a non-agricultural area because their taxes were to high (CA,NYC)
Praying for your friends victory in court !


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## SalteyLove

Hoping that particular police officer wasn't familiar with the history at the time of the incident but that after review it's clear that they were a threat. I sure hope she gets her legal fees and maybe even the veterinary costs from the previous attack back.


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## toth boer goats

Get a petition signed by all your neighbors. I forget how many you need.

That is if all want to help fight against this with your friend, So those dogs are stopped.

Everyone who can get a record of calling the authorities, days and times it happened each time.
Have pictures/videos of injuries of animals or death, need to get their evidence together.
Sounds like it all has to be presented in court. 
The neighborhood may have to go to court and add to the case.

I am sorry your friend is being treated that way. I would of done the same.


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## Damfino

I went riding with my friend this morning and it sounds like her lawyer thinks there are very good odds that the DA will drop the case. There have been multiple complaints about these dogs from several others in the neighborhood so the dogs are clearly an ongoing problem. In fact, it sounds like the owner is going in for an arraignment this week or next, and my friend is pretty sure it's over some other incident with those dogs. It sounds like the one cop who charged my friend is out of her depth. The other officer who got involved later said my friend was in the right. On the plus side, a new neighbor just moved in across the street from the person with the bad dogs, and this guy is an ex-cop who my friend really likes. She spoke with the fellow about the dog problem and it sounds like he's not going to put up with any nonsense. On the plus side, there are only two dogs left. Originally there were five--a Pyrenees cross and four pit bulls (mother and three grown pups). The Pyrenees and one of the pit bulls disappeared sometime over the summer. My friend killed one of the pits, so now there are only two and one is wounded.


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## ksalvagno

That is good news.


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## Goats Rock

I hope she wins. ( actually, no one wins, but I hope your friend does not get convicted).
Not all dogs are sweet little lap dogs. If dogs are running free with no boundaries, they are usually predators and have to be treated as such.


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## Tanya

I love animals and am pro life, but if my animals are threatened by an animal not controlled I will not hesitate to protect tgem. Especially if my animals cannot defend themselves. I am sorry your friend is facing this.


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## toth boer goats

Rooting for her.

Sounds promising.


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## Feira426

Ugh, so terrible. I hope she is treated fairly and isn’t convicted. That’s ridiculous. And I hope something can be done about the neighbor with the dogs. This is why I want to live in the middle of nowhere!


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## Nommie Bringeruvda Noms

We had a massacre of half of our chickens, last year, and let it be known that the owner of the 2 dogs could add us to the list of neighbors who would not hesitate to shoot, if her dogs ever came on our land, again. We still had/ have other critters to protect. Shortly afterward, they moved, so there was no longer an issue. I'm sure your friend will be vindicated!


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## Boers4ever

Wow I’m rooting for your friend! That’s awful! 
Quick story. So we had some neighbors down the road that were really trashy and had like 10 medium to large sized dogs. Well they were far enough away that we didn’t pay much attention to them besides the occasional comment about their trashiness. Well one day we noticed that they had packed up and left their house. No dogs in sight, so we figured that they got kicked out of their rent house. Any way, about a week later I saw a bunch of those dogs in our pasture. So I chased them off and didn’t think much more about it... until that evening when we found a newborn calf half eaten in our pasture. The poor mother was so distraught. We went to the old neighbors house and found the dogs there covered in blood. Anyway, after dealing with the whole law and animal protection service thing, we found out that they had MOVED and LEFT THEIR DOGS THERE TO STARVE!!!!!!! What’s wrong with those people?! No wonder those dogs killed that calf! They were starving. Poor things. The owners came back and got the dogs and then left again. I really hate to think about what happened to them after that. 
Anyway, rant and story over now. What horrible people are in the world. Thank goodness that there are good people too.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat

Ugh I hope your friend wins! That really sucks. I would have done the same exact thing.


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## Tanya

Here is a complete opposite look. Growing up on a chicken farm as a child my father could never shoot another animal. Kulling chickens for the meat market was as far as he could go. So when the neighbors collies came over one day to help themselves, he politely leashed them and trained them to watch over our chickens. Two years but in the end Milo and spot were brilliant.
A once in a blue moon thing. And the neighbor had no clue. He never botheted looking for them either


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## Damfino

Collies are one thing... Pit Bulls are something entirely different. Trying to put a leash on one might be an invitation for them to tear your arm off.


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## Tanya

Damfino said:


> Collies are one thing... Pit Bulls are something entirely different. Trying to put a leash on one might be an invitation for them to tear your arm off.


I agree. Especially if they are raised not to respect bounderies.


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## Iluvlilly!

Pit bulls can be nice, but most times any dog no matter the breed reflect the owners personality. If the owner is nice, good chance that the dog will be too!


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## goatblessings

I have to strongly disagree. Having owned very different breeds, some have more of a prey drive than others. BUT any dog, off leash in my goat area, bothering my livestock gets shot. Period. It is incumbent upon the owner to control their pets. If my livestock is threatened - I will take care of the problem. Conversely - if one of my dogs were on another neighbors property doing the same thing, I would NOT blame the neighbor.


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## MadCatX

Ga has state and county laws for that issue. Dogs that are not on leashes or fenced up is illegal. I have had more than one Pit Bull, its all in the training. These people didn't need to have an animal that requires a level of maturity and understanding to own. 

I wouldve shot both of them myself with out question.


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## Iluvlilly!

I agree with you both! But I'm just saying that not all pit bulls are mean. And I would have shot the dogs too if myself or my animals were in danger.


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## Damfino

Not all Pit Bulls are mean, but they require a higher level of training than many other dogs and they need a job. As a breed, Pit Bulls present a much higher level of danger simply due to their strong prey drive and _incredibly powerful bite_. Any breed can chase and/or attack livestock, children, and even adults, but there is a HUGE difference in the danger level presented by a loose, aggressive Dachshund and a loose, aggressive Pit Bull! Most dogs will run away with their tail between their legs if you yell or throw a rock at them, but certain breeds are a lot less likely to back down and may in fact attack you if you try to drive them off. A Pit Bull is definitely one of those breeds.

Unfortunately too many people get a "tough" breed of dog for no reason other than status, and this is a terrible reason to buy any dog! A lot of Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Cane Corsos, etc. are bought for this reason. Other naive folks buy a "cute" puppy without considering whether they can actually train and control the dog when it's grown. Huskies, Chow Chows, and Dalmatians are classic examples. Herding dogs like Border Collies and Heelers tend to be way too much dog for a family pet and often end up in trouble because of their strong herding drive, which turns into a chase drive when the dog is not trained and given a job to do. Many dogs are bred for a specific purpose and if they're not given a job in line with their breeding they can become very destructive. Pit Bulls, unfortunately, have a long history of being bred specifically to fight. They were the original all-American family guard dog and they can still be good at that job, but sadly some members of the breed have too much aggression bred into them to ever make harmless family pets. The worst part is that you often can't tell whether you got one of the ones that will suddenly turn on people until it actually happens. Too many of them are nice until they're not, and that's one of the things that makes Pit Bulls so dangerous.


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## SandyNubians

Ugh, so sorry for your friend. Sucks she has to go through that. 

I just went through something similar, same breed. Though, I didn't shoot(Wish I did now!) If I hadn't met that dog 2 days prior...SSS. I did though, and while she was sweet with people and dogs, she wanted to KILL everything else she saw. I had her on a leash trying to drag her inside away from the (goat)kids. She was going crazy trying to get at them. 

I have no problems with Pitbulls. Had a sweet little foster pup earlier this year who adored all the the goats(chickens were another story) HOWEVER, a lot of people get them because they don't want to be "that" person. Who hates a breed of dog. and they are this special person for having "this" breed(Along with those who get them to be "cool") Many people who own these dogs seem to get tunnel vision. They don't believe their dog would ever hurt another thing because they are oh so sweet. Then their owners show up acting like horribly rude jerks who think you did whatever you did(Could be shooting, in my case, called the cops cause I didn't know where she lived) because you hate the breed of dog.

I have a German Shepherd. I have loved and wanted the breed for years. I will admit I may get a little angry when I hear of someone who shot a GSD for attacking their animals, but I am angry at their owners. Not at the person for protecting their livestock. I would do the same. They are high prey drive, powerful dogs. When we get animals, we have the responsibility to protect them. That goes for the dogs owner as well. Just wish people would keep them contained unless they are well trained or will not leave the property.

Also wish people would do more research on dogs with high prey drives and active breeds. They aren't for many people.


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## happybleats

We have rescued many dogs over the years. Pit bulls included. Rocky was saved from a chain and half starved. He was a short stocky guy with many scars to show his fighting..no ears left. He was a super sweet dog unless you had 4 legs. No matter what we did to discourage his actions he just could not help himself. After he killed our neighbors prize bird dog in the streets we had to find a rescue for him that knew better than we did. We were very clueless back then of these dogs. My heart broke for Rocky, he didn't know any other life. We had no business keeping him. He was a killer..period. My point is if one doesn't own a breed with full knowledge of that breed..shouldn't have it. My daughter begs for a blue heeler..as a pet. Not going to happen. That poor puppy would not have a job here. 
Here on our farm, like many of you..livestock comes first. I would cry like a baby after but I would shoot first.


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## AlabamaGirl

happybleats said:


> We have rescued many dogs over the years. Pit bulls included. Rocky was saved from a chain and half starved. He was a short stocky guy with many scars to show his fighting..no ears left. He was a super sweet dog unless you had 4 legs. No matter what we did to discourage his actions he just could not help himself. After he killed our neighbors prize bird dog in the streets we had to find a rescue for him that knew better than we did. We were very clueless back then of these dogs. My heart broke for Rocky, he didn't know any other life. We had no business keeping him. He was a killer..period. My point is if one doesn't own a breed with full knowledge of that breed..shouldn't have it. My daughter begs for a blue heeler..as a pet. Not going to happen. That poor puppy would not have a job here.
> Here on our farm, like many of you..livestock comes first. I would cry like a baby after but I would shoot first.


Is it because heelers are high energy? (and I'm glad you found the guy a home)


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## Damfino

My aunt had a German Shepherd because she thought the breed was beautiful. They are. It was also very intelligent but unfortunately may aunt is NOT a dog trainer. She couldn't control it and it ended up getting really scary really fast. She did very well with a Golden Retriever. Here's the difference: One time my aunt was walking the German Shepherd and some passerby saw the dog giving him the side eye, so he said "Booga-booga-booga!" at the dog. It wasn't a nice thing to do, but the dog's reaction was to lunge for the man's throat. Had someone done something like that to the Golden Retriever it would have wagged its tail and licked the man's face, or perhaps retreated if it was scared.

When I was born my dad had a Dalmatian/Blue Heeler mix named Zero that was highly trained and very obedient. When I was born it took on the job as my protector. However, when my cousin came over to play, he pulled Zero's ear and it bit him in the face. My dad immediately rehomed Zero with someone who needed a guard dog. Eventually we got a Yellow Lab named Shammy and you could pull that dog's ears and tail all day and it would never, ever in a million years bite someone--especially not a child. My parents owned a lodge and the guests' kids would play with Shammy and we never worried that the dog would harm someone's kid just because he got startled, hurt, stepped on, or heard a piercing "rabbit scream".

More people should own dogs like that instead of the fighting/guarding/herding/protecting kind! Unless of course you actually have something for the dog to fight, guard, herd, protect, etc. If I didn't have goats that need protection from bears, coyotes, and mountain lions I would never own an Anatolian Shepherd. There's too much potential for injury with a dog this big, this powerful, and this protective unless he has a specific job to do. He just isn't "pet" material no matter how nicely he's been raised, and he would quickly get bored and destructive/dangerous if he were allowed to roam or be idle.


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## happybleats

@AlabamaGirl , yes high energy yes..plus they are herders..and may chase our goats, stressing them. They are super beautiful breeds..love them but with out a job to do can end up in trouble.


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## AlabamaGirl

I was chased across the yard onto my Dad's truck after my Neighbor's pit starting chasing my siblings and I, and I'm still not the type of person who just hates Pit but I'm not the type to say "there are only bad owners" either. They were bred to be aggressive (bull fighting dogs) and my guess is that it's fixed in their genes.



Damfino said:


> My aunt had a German Shepherd because she thought the breed was beautiful. They are. It was also very intelligent but unfortunately may aunt is NOT a dog trainer. She couldn't control it and it ended up getting really scary really fast. She did very well with a Golden Retriever. Here's the difference: One time my aunt was walking the German Shepherd and some passerby saw the dog giving him the side eye, so he said "Booga-booga-booga!" at the dog. It wasn't a nice thing to do, but the dog's reaction was to lunge for the man's throat. Had someone done something like that to the Golden Retriever it would have wagged its tail and licked the man's face, or perhaps retreated if it was scared.
> 
> When I was born my dad had a Dalmatian/Blue Heeler mix named Zero that was highly trained and very obedient. When I was born it took on the job as my protector. However, when my cousin came over to play, he pulled Zero's ear and it bit him in the face. My dad immediately rehomed Zero with someone who needed a guard dog. Eventually we got a Yellow Lab named Shammy and you could pull that dog's ears and tail all day and it would never, ever in a million years bite someone--especially not a child. My parents owned a lodge and the guests' kids would play with Shammy and we never worried that the dog would harm someone's kid just because he got startled, hurt, stepped on, or heard a piercing "rabbit scream".
> 
> More people should own dogs like that instead of the fighting/guarding/herding/protecting kind! Unless of course you actually have something for the dog to fight, guard, herd, protect, etc. If I didn't have goats that need protection from bears, coyotes, and mountain lions I would never own an Anatolian Shepherd. There's too much potential for injury with a dog this big, this powerful, and this protective unless he has a specific job to do. He just isn't "pet" material no matter how nicely he's been raised, and he would quickly get bored and destructive/dangerous if he were allowed to roam or be idle.


I agree with you, I _really_ want a Doberman, but I know they were bred for protecting, and I doubt they'd want to sit idle all day.


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## Tanya

I had a German Shepherd as a child. His name was Butch. Such a beautiful boy. He was raised to protrct me and my family, well more me. Back in the 80's crime was not so high here. My brother pulled his ear and he got to nice piercings in his face for it. We kept Butch till he died. My brother had no business trying ride him like a horse and was told so plenty. Butch actually killed an intruder that raped me as a kid, we hid him till the investigation was done. We told the police that he had been shot by the intruder and that is why he became savage. 
I love dogs even the most aggressive. But I know when not to get onvolved.
I hope your friends case is dropped.


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## Boers4ever

We love Dobermans. We have had them for years. I think that they get a very bad wrap for being vicious. Unless they are trained to be vicious, their true nature is very gentle. They are guard dogs so they are very observant of their home. And they will not leave home once the know that it’s where they’re supposed to be. Now I DO NOT blame your friend for protecting her animals! I would’ve done the same thing! Those nasty people had no business owning dogs, or letting them run loose like that.


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## AlabamaGirl

Boers4ever said:


> We love Dobermans. We have had them for years. I think that they get a very bad wrap for being vicious. Unless they are trained to be vicious, their true nature is very gentle. They are guard dogs so they are very observant of their home. And they will not leave home once the know that it's where they're supposed to be. Now I DO NOT blame your friend for protecting her animals! I would've done the same thing! Those nasty people had no business owning dogs, or letting them run loose like that.


This post is pure temptation!


Tanya said:


> I had a German Shepherd as a child. His name was Butch. Such a beautiful boy. He was raised to protrct me and my family, well more me. Back in the 80's crime was not so high here. My brother pulled his ear and he got to nice piercings in his face for it. We kept Butch till he died. My brother had no business trying ride him like a horse and was told so plenty. Butch actually killed an intruder that raped me as a kid, we hid him till the investigation was done. We told the police that he had been shot by the intruder and that is why he became savage.
> I love dogs even the most aggressive. But I know when not to get onvolved.
> I hope your friends case is dropped.


Sorry for what happened to you, and good on Butch for tearing up that intruder!


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## Tanya

Yeah. Butch was my spirit animal. Loved him.


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## Goats Rock

Each dog breed has its own problems. No one will ever agree which is better or what the correct response should be for all the problems. We need to be careful that this post doesn't spiral into a negative one. Each person and area treats unwanted trespassers differently. That is why we have laws and courts. Hopefully, this particular case is decided in favor of the landowner and against the predatory dogs.


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## AlabamaGirl

Goats Rock said:


> Each dog breed has its own problems. No one will ever agree which is better or what the correct response should be for all the problems. We need to be careful that this post doesn't spiral into a negative one. Each person and area treats unwanted trespassers differently. That is why we have laws and courts. Hopefully, this particular case is decided in favor of the landowner and against the predatory dogs.


I hope this case goes in the landowner's favor as well.


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## happybleats

@toth boer goats


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## Damfino

Unfortunately, the fencing supplies you're talking about are NOT "cheap as chips". I wish they were! Prices have actually skyrocketed in recent years because of our trade war with China. It's nice that we're doing more manufacturing at home now, but we definitely pay for it! A slew of natural disasters and a building boom have also kept prices up.

In any case, you still haven't touched the topic of using the public road... how do we deal with that? Also, none of the neighbors have stock, yet they and their pets have been threatened by these dogs. Are you suggesting that _everyone_ put up a dog-proof fence? My friend's "stock" (two horses) aren't even the ones that have been harassed and hurt. The Pit Bulls have gone after her, her dog, and her cats. They haven't gone after the horses on her property (yet). They only go after the horses when they are in the public road. A fence won't fix that.


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## Damfino

Game cameras are a nice idea and I can suggest she install some but the authorities already know the dogs are loose and have been slow to take action. We're a tiny community in Pueblo county and the city of Pueblo has a pretty high crime rate so loose dogs are somewhere near the bottom of police concerns. I think the owner has finally been arraigned because the dogs have been loose repeatedly after being told to contain them (I don't know all the details), but it's taken almost a year for that to happen. Anyway, I'm hopeful that the dogs will be taken away soon. I don't think dogs are "innocent" or "guilty"--those are human terms that can't really be applied to animals. They are a menace because they are allowed to roam and the authorities have been ridiculously slow at addressing the problem. Leaving a loose dangerous dog around is as bad as leaving a loose loaded gun around. 

My friend is trying to clear her land enough to get a better fence around it, but since she's on her own that takes time. She's not young (she's 65) and she's doing all the chainsawing, stump-pulling, post hole digging, rock removal, etc. on a heavily wooded, rocky, and hilly piece of acreage all by herself so it's just not going to happen quickly. Not to mention she's been scared to work outside on her own property all summer. She finally broke down and got the gun and learned how to shoot it because she felt like a hostage on her own property and she wasn't able to get anything done outdoors. The police knew the dogs were loose all summer and kept issuing warnings but wouldn't take action. If the police had done their job, my friend would not have resorted to getting a gun and shooting the dogs. She fired warning shots at them several times with very little result. The situation escalated and when she found out the dogs tried to attack one of her other neighbors, it really spooked her and when they came on her property this last time she wasn't interested in waiting until they actually grabbed her arm before she started shooting. One of the cops who talked to her told her she did right and shouldn't have been charged with a crime. He told her he once waited until a Pit Bull was actually attacking before he started shooting and it took him five rounds to finally kill it because it was so hard to aim properly once the dog grabbed him. In those situations it's actually very easy to end up accidentally shooting yourself (if you can get off a round at all).


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## ksalvagno

Thread is cleaned up and taken care of.


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## Damfino

Seriously...?? *sigh*

Just so y'all know, I wasn't offended however much I might've disagreed, and I started this thread. Oh well.


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## Feira426

Looks like my stuff is gone, too. Sorry if I did something I wasn’t supposed to. I’m still figuring out the forum and I might not know all the protocols yet.


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## AlabamaGirl

Feira426 said:


> Looks like my stuff is gone, too. Sorry if I did something I wasn't supposed to. I'm still figuring out the forum and I might not know all the protocols yet.


You didn't do anything wrong?


Damfino said:


> Seriously...?? *sigh*
> 
> Just so y'all know, I wasn't offended however much I might've disagreed, and I started this thread. Oh well.


I found it enjoyable, things calmed down quite a bit towards the end IMO.


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## goathiker

Boers4ever said:


> We love Dobermans. We have had them for years. I think that they get a very bad wrap for being vicious. Unless they are trained to be vicious, their true nature is very gentle.


Excellent, I've been watching for a source for a well bred Doberman. Now that my Fila is about at the end of her life I plan to fulfill a childhood dream. The first dog in my life was the neighbor's doberman and I've wanted one ever since.


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## toth boer goats

Glad things were taken care of.

Hate to lock down this thread.


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## MadCatX

One of the things Ive learned is knowing laws helps in these situations. Each state/county/city has such different protocols. That said, dealing with prey animals vs predatory animals. So I generally take on the protector role with them. 

Pitbulls by general build give them an edge on your average dog. Their mouths and body builds are designed for the kind of attacks they do. 

Suing them for damages is a way to go, but with so many different laws so many topics come into play here.


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## CountyLineAcres

goathiker said:


> Excellent, I've been watching for a source for a well bred Doberman. Now that my Fila is about at the end of her life I plan to fulfill a childhood dream. The first dog in my life was the neighbor's doberman and I've wanted one ever since.


Go for it! We breed Dobermans, and they are absolutely excellent animals. Since they are extremely intelligent and high energy, I recommend them only for dog owners that know how to mentally and physically stimulate a dog. Most Dobermans don't want to laze around all day. They want to run and play. They most importantly want to make their owner proud! They are not called Velcro Dogs for no reason lol. Dobermans also excel in obedience and love every minute of it. Every obedience, rally, and trick class I've been in, Dobermans are at the top of the class!

Dobermans are the biggest, goofiest sweethearts. There are working lines that excel in IPO, shutzhund, policing, etc but it is not hard to find breeders that specialize in family pets. They've been doing it for decades, and they've perfected an amazing family dog.


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## AlabamaGirl

CountyLineAcres said:


> Go for it! We breed Dobermans, and they are absolutely excellent animals. Since they are extremely intelligent and high energy, I recommend them only for dog owners that know how to mentally and physically stimulate a dog. Most Dobermans don't want to laze around all day. They want to run and play. They most importantly want to make their owner proud! They are not called Velcro Dogs for no reason lol. Dobermans also excel in obedience and love every minute of it. Every obedience, rally, and trick class I've been in, Dobermans are at the top of the class!
> 
> Dobermans are the biggest, goofiest sweethearts. There are working lines that excel in IPO, shutzhund, policing, etc but it is not hard to find breeders that specialize in family pets. They've been doing it for decades, and they've perfected an amazing family dog.


In your experience, are they ok for people with long work hours (10-11 hrs.)?


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## lottsagoats1

My brother has always had Dobies, usually rescues, and has had great luck with them as pets. He lives alone, so he walks the dogs several times a day and also plays with them in his fenced in back yard. I had one years ago, a retired police dog. He was very protective but adored the family.

Each state and town has their own set of laws and ordinances for animals. In some states, shooting, but not killing, and animal is a crime, no matter the circumstances behind the shot. I'm not looking to condemn, or defend anyone, I'm just stating facts. I am an animal control officer for a local town (state certified) and in my state, shooting and just injuring a domestic animal can be considered abuse. Mostly the decision to charge rests on a particular district attorneys agenda and what is popular in the community at any given time.

I have Alaskan Malamutes, extremely prey driven by nature. I have had them for many, many years. They are in a large pen made of cattle panels with electric fence jumped from the horse and goat areas along the top of the fence. They hit that once and stay away forever. No doubt in my mind that they would attack and kill my goats and chickens. I have a rescue dog, Golden retriever x St Bernard cross, who is a major predator. He is either on a leash or in a fenced in dog yard to protect my critters.


I live in a rather built up area ( wasn't a few years ago!) so I can never use a gun. Instead, I use firecrackers to scare dogs away. My Pyrenees does great keeping animal predators away, and even humans, but I sometimes needs extra and that's when I use firecrackers.

As an ACO of many, many years, I have yet to have to handle a Pit Bull attack on a human or livestock, even though that breed is one of the more common breeds. (Against cats, though? Absolutely). Labrador and Golden Retrievers and their crosses have the highest number of bites, followed by small breeds, non- Pittie Terriers, Chihuahuas and such.


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## CountyLineAcres

AlabamaGirl said:


> In your experience, are they ok for people with long work hours (10-11 hrs.)?


Honestly, I think that's a long time for any dog to be in a kennel or hold their bladder. It would depend on your setup. I would say it's not ideal.


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## AlabamaGirl

CountyLineAcres said:


> Honestly, I think that's a long time for any dog to be in a kennel or hold their bladder. It would depend on your setup. I would say it's not ideal.


Not in a kennel, he/she would have access to a well fenced backyard or most of the house to roam.


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## toth boer goats

Not a good idea for any dog to be penned that long.
The dog will go stir crazy.


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## AlabamaGirl

That's a shame, I'll stick with cats, wouldn't want the dogs to get too lonely.


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## toth boer goats




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## Goatzrule

I have to say that I have seen equally as bad "Family dogs" golden retrievers, labs, beagles, etc. They are under trained and under stimulated. Inexperienced owners get them then dont bother to train them. Let them roam and then they get into trouble. Any breed with the wrong owner can become a problem. Every breed needs stimulation and most dogs in the US are under stimulated which leads to these problem dogs.


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## AlabamaGirl

Goatzrule said:


> I have to say that I have seen equally as bad "Family dogs" golden retrievers, labs, beagles, etc. They are under trained and under stimulated. Inexperienced owners get them then dont bother to train them. Let them roam and then they get into trouble. Any breed with the wrong owner can become a problem. Every breed needs stimulation and most dogs in the US are under stimulated which leads to these problem dogs.


Sad really, I hear lots of dog breeds get turned to the pound because they are more than people can handle, that's what really keeps me from getting one. 50 or more hours per week wouldn't be good for a dog apparently, and I don't want them getting into trouble, howling all the time or getting too lonely.


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## Goatzrule

You are smart for thinking of that. A dog is a commitment. Unless you can bring your dog to work with you being alone is just not ideal


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## goathiker

Rescuing an older dog that is less needy can work and with a dog door to a secure yard, they could be quite happy. A couple of medium sized dogs rather than one large one would provide entertainment.


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## Sfgwife

goathiker said:


> Excellent, I've been watching for a source for a well bred Doberman. Now that my Fila is about at the end of her life I plan to fulfill a childhood dream. The first dog in my life was the neighbor's doberman and I've wanted one ever since.


DO.IT!

My auntie and unk had always had a doby. They were the most gentle loving but fierce creatures. Such beautiful dogs. Anyone could come to their house and the dogs were fine but if unk said shoe it was game on. Shoe meant it was a no no person and the dog would be in guard mode until unk said sock. It was nuts!


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## Boers4ever

Here's a pic of our Doberman. His name is Booger lol.


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## AlabamaGirl

Boers4ever said:


> View attachment 191925
> 
> Here's a pic of our Doberman. His name is Booger lol.


Too cute!


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## CountyLineAcres

Boers4ever said:


> View attachment 191925
> 
> Here's a pic of our Doberman. His name is Booger lol.


OMG I love him!


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## toth boer goats

Had a black Doberman, he was a very loving, smart, dedicated handsome dog. Love them.


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## SalteyLove

@Damfino - any news on your friends charges?


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## Damfino

Thanks for asking. My friend had her arraignment on December 16th and she pled "not guilty" by reason of protecting livestock. The judge did not dismiss the case and I think it's because the DA really wants her to plead guilty to a lesser charge. It just goes to show how corrupt our "justice" system is in this country. It's all about winning cases and it's rarely about actually making sure justice is served. So at this point I think it's a game of chicken with the DA. If he can get my friend to panic and take the lesser charge, he wins. If she decides to fight this it's going to cost her a lot of money, but she decided to fight it anyway. I think the case can still be dismissed before the trial on April 15th and I truly hope it is. I think my friend will win her case if it's heard in court, but as I said, it's a lot of expense and bother for her to win. It's also scary because if she gets found guilty of animal cruelty, the penalty could be 12-18 months in jail. The threat of this possibility is enough to make many people plead to lesser charges even if they're totally innocent, which of course is not justice at all. 

The man with the dogs had his arraignment a few weeks ago and he pled guilty to ELEVEN "dog at large" charges. He just paid the fines and went home. The dogs have been "at large" several times since then and my friend has it on camera but she knows now that no one is going to do anything about it. The owner doesn't care how many fines he pays and the authorities seem totally uninterested in taking his dogs away. My friend is also afraid to call the cops now. When they came to question her they said they weren't considering charges against her and then they charged her anyway! So now she doesn't want the cops out to her property again.

Word on the street is that the dog owner launders money for some drug lord up in Denver so he's flush with cash and doesn't care how many fines he pays. The man has a serious criminal record and has spent time in jail in the past, so I'm actually kind of wondering if the authorities are avoiding hitting him on any small potatoes charges because they're trying to build a big case so they can put him away for a long time. I really hope that's what's happening. He shot 30 rounds off in the direction of my friend's house after the dog incident. Apparently he has at least one fully-automatic weapon in his house and numerous other weapons despite his felony record. The cops know he has guns but have not charged him with illegal weapons possession which makes me think they might be building a bigger case. It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next few months.


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## ksalvagno

Wow. How horrible.


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## Tanya

Ugh. I feel for your friend. If she hits the court with all her evidence and she is found guilty she will have a strong case for appeal. But this will ruin her. Its a rock and a hard place. I am a legal advocate and I can see the holes in the DA case.


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## Goats Rock

I was going to ask how the case was going. What a crazy thing for your friend. I sure wish your friend the best.


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## toth boer goats

Oh my, how awful.


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## Moers kiko boars

I think I would go PUBLIC with this information on her trial. It sounds like a farse. All it takes is for the Judge & Attorney to be Publicised outside of their tiny jurisdiction. Let others SEE whats going on. Wonder how fast her case would be excused.


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## happybleats

Wow..prayers for your friend!! It's unbelievable


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## Lindsay1983

So I have to know how all of this has played out. Any new news about the case? I’m rather new here still, so my early mornings have been dedicated to browsing this forum. I’m very curious about this.


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## MellonFriend

Yes, I was just thinking about asking how this was going.


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## goathiker

I have 2 things to say...
My husband got a pitbull and I managed it until he was 11 years old. He got out of his yard and killed 1 of my goats, most of my chickens, and I found out later that he'd been killing the the cats for years. 

Conversely...
One day we put our goats out across the creek in the back of our property. About half an hour later our dog chased the goats in and dissapeared. 
We get a frantic call from our neighbors that my dog is chasing his sheep. 
We run over and the sheep are coming out of the barn and laying in the sun. 
The dog put his sheep away. The next day one of his heifer calves was killed by a cougar that was big enough to drag it up a tree. 

Years earlier but, best dog I've ever owned. He was German Shepherd and wolf.


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## Damfino

I lost interest in this thread when the mods took control of it and then I forgot about it. 

I talked to my friend the other day. She's fighting the charge which has so far cost her $6000 in lawyer fees. If she pleads guilty to a lesser charge she'll get a slap on the wrist but the dog owner has already said he'll sue her in civil court, so she's between a rock and a hard place. Her lawyer is trying to get the charges dropped based on incomplete evidence on the part of law enforcement. It seems that the cop who brought the charges is one of those people who thinks anyone who hurts or kills a dog is automatically guilty. She never even looked at the place where the dogs were shot, the footprints and blood in the snow next to the horse corral, etc. The dog owner claimed my friend shot his dogs on his own property and the cop never investigated that claim. The dog owner is caught lying on body cam and the cop never even looked into it or checked his story against my friend's story. The fresh snow told the story but the cop refused to look even when my friend offered to show her. 

The cop further stated that the dogs had no prior incidents and were harmless. But that was also a lie because animal control sent her a lengthy report on these dogs' history with multiple dog at large and dangerous dog charges--she chose to ignore that report. The dates confirm that she'd received animal control's report prior to filing her own (very different) report. Unfortunately my friend doesn't have any recourse to press charges against the cop. There are too many laws granting immunity and protection to police even when they are totally corrupt. We should know this week if the trial gets thrown out. If not, it's scheduled for April 15th.

In any case, when all is said and done I'll be calling the sheriff and telling him what I think of this deputy. No one wants to call the cops if corrupt, dishonest, and unreasonable people are allowed to remain on the force. We need some serious police and justice reform in this country. Apparently 99% of criminal cases in this county are plea bargained, and 95% in the state are plea bargained. That's not justice. If it costs this much to stand trial, it's no wonder that people take the plea bargain even if they're not guilty. And it's a good (or bad!) way for guilty people to walk free with a slap on the wrist. Whatever this system is, it's not justice. And there really needs to be a way to go after dishonest cops. We truly give them way too much power and authority without requiring them to earn it, and we have very little recourse when some choose to abuse it.


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## AlabamaGirl

Damfino said:


> I lost interest in this thread when the mods took control of it and then I forgot about it.
> 
> I talked to my friend the other day. She's fighting the charge which has so far cost her $6000 in lawyer fees. If she pleads guilty to a lesser charge she'll get a slap on the wrist but the dog owner has already said he'll sue her in civil court, so she's between a rock and a hard place. Her lawyer is trying to get the charges dropped based on incomplete evidence on the part of law enforcement. It seems that the cop who brought the charges is one of those people who thinks anyone who hurts or kills a dog is automatically guilty. She never even looked at the place where the dogs were shot, the footprints and blood in the snow next to the horse corral, etc. The dog owner claimed my friend shot his dogs on his own property and the cop never investigated that claim. The dog owner is caught lying on body cam and the cop never even looked into it or checked his story against my friend's story. The fresh snow told the story but the cop refused to look even when my friend offered to show her.
> 
> The cop further stated that the dogs had no prior incidents and were harmless. But that was also a lie because animal control sent her a lengthy report on these dogs' history with multiple dog at large and dangerous dog charges--she chose to ignore that report. The dates confirm that she'd received animal control's report prior to filing her own (very different) report. Unfortunately my friend doesn't have any recourse to press charges against the cop. There are too many laws granting immunity and protection to police even when they are totally corrupt. We should know this week if the trial gets thrown out. If not, it's scheduled for April 15th.
> 
> In any case, when all is said and done I'll be calling the sheriff and telling him what I think of this deputy. No one wants to call the cops if corrupt, dishonest, and unreasonable people are allowed to remain on the force. We need some serious police and justice reform in this country. Apparently 99% of criminal cases in this county are plea bargained, and 95% in the state are plea bargained. That's not justice. If it costs this much to stand trial, it's no wonder that people take the plea bargain even if they're not guilty. And it's a good (or bad!) way for guilty people to walk free with a slap on the wrist. Whatever this system is, it's not justice. And there really needs to be a way to go after dishonest cops. We truly give them way too much power and authority without requiring them to earn it, and we have very little recourse when some choose to abuse it.


I hope the trial goes in your friend's favor, this ain't fair to her, she did nothing wrong.


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## Lindsay1983

So unbelievably messed up and corrupt! I feel so bad for your friend. She only did what all of us would have done. I really hope things work out in her favor.


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## Nigerians

Had this same thing happen to a friend of mine last December. Three dogs running loose on a rural neighborhood road, Shepherd/Pit crosses. Numerous neighbor complaints. Dangerous dogs.

My friends take turns walking their pet Pyr about a mile every morning. One morning, the 3 dogs came running out, snarling. While he was fending off one of them, another one ducked in and grabbed the bottom of his arm, doing a lot of damage. Cops confiscated the dogs.

There was a virtual hearing, with many of the neighbors testifying. The judge told the owner--you know, its legal to shoot a dog in KY that is attacking/threatening humans or livestock. You're lucky these people aren't pressing charges. He then ordered her to confine the dogs, or lose them for good.

So she put up CHICKEN WIRE to keep them in. Last I heard, the dogs were gone again.


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## MadCatX

LOL No Body no Crime folks. Just a little tip...just a tip...


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## Damfino

Unfortunately one dog was wounded and ran straight home. I forgot to mention that the cop tried to charge my friend with hiding evidence because she dumped the dead dog's body off a cliff somewhere. When the cop asked my friend to show her the dead dog, she told her exactly where it was, so my friend was definitely not hiding evidence! She just needed the carcass off her property because she didn't have a way to bury it. I believe that charge was eventually dropped but I'm not sure.


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## Goatzrule

Man this must be so stressful for your friend. Im most worried about how the jury might not see this from her side. We all know shes in the right and legally she is but get a jury of pet moms then they may not be open minded


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## MadCatX

I dont recall another dog officer? I would expect the Dog owner to have the proper restraints for an animal like this. Did you inquire there officer?


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## MadCatX

I hate stuff like this, and I like dogs. But this is just gross negligence of the dogs owner plain and simple. Tell your friend Im there with them. They are very lucky its not in Georgia. VERY lucky.


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## AlabamaGirl

MadCatX said:


> I hate stuff like this, and I like dogs. But this is just gross negligence of the dogs owner plain and simple. Tell your friend Im there with them. They are very lucky its not in Georgia. VERY lucky.


Does Georgia usually have zero tolerance for these situations?


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## MadCatX

Georgia has individual state, county, and city laws. In general we are a stand your ground state so our animal laws are probably more open than other states. In my county, a dog of any kind has to be on a leash or in a pen. The owner assumes all responsibilities of the dog. So in this same example. Dog shows up on my property. I run it off with words. If its not listening, or just being a nuisance, I have a pellet rifle that i can use to deter them.
They attack or try to attack any of my animals. I have a 30-30 and 308. What ever is left will be buried of fed to my chickens.


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## MadCatX

Sorry, I am the Sheppard who covets the weak, and my goats are my herd. So its my job to make sure they are safe


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## Moers kiko boars

No reason to.be sorry @MadCatX ..nothing wrong with your opinion. Sounds good to me. Here in Ok. If any dog acts aggressive or threatening in any way to your livestock or you. You have a legal right to protect your livestock and self with lethal force. According to my sherriff's dept.


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## AlabamaGirl

Moers kiko boars said:


> No reason to.be sorry @MadCatX ..nothing wrong with your opinion. Sounds good to me. Here in Ok. If any dog acts aggressive or threatening in any way to your livestock or you. You have a legal right to protect your livestock and self with lethal force. According to my sherriff's dept.


This should be the case everywhere.


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## MadCatX

And you know, I tell people who get into livestock or hobby farms. Look, KNOW Your laws, and what you are comfortable with doing.
I just dont trust people to be responsible for theirs, so I have to make sure I am for mine.


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## Damfino

Colorado law allows people to kill dogs that are attacking, threatening, or otherwise harassing livestock. My friend was totally within her rights _legally_. The problem in this case is police corruption and refusal by the particular officer involved to even look at the evidence. She opted to side with the dog owner right out of the gate and wouldn't hear any evidence on the other side.

On the plus side, ever since the dog owner was finally served with multiple "dangerous dog" citations, he has been keeping his remaining dogs locked up. I believe he's required to keep them penned or leashed at all times, and I think muzzles may even be required when they are outside the pen. Violation results in an automatic $1000 fine and possible confiscation of the dogs. So at least my friend has not had to deal with any further problems on that front.


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## MadCatX

See there, @Damfino I could get deep into the weeds on my feeling of corrupt law enforcement lol. 
Sounds like though there are required to be responsible. You know being a Georgian, its wild to hear you guys going through that over there. I mean yall are rural ahah.


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## Damfino

Good news! My friend's trial was yesterday and she was found innocent! Woohoo!!

Now that it's over I plan to lodge a complaint with the sheriff about his deputy. She's a real piece of work. She refused to collect evidence or look at the footprints and blood in the fresh snow next to the horse corral that my friend offered to show her. She just took the word of the dog owner that my friend had shot his dogs on his own property without provocation and pressed charges. Fortunately a lot of this, including some lies on the deputy's part, were caught on body cam. It seems like police officers can't be got rid of no matter how bad they are, nor how much proof exists of their guilt, but it never hurts to complain anyway.


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## AlabamaGirl

Damfino said:


> Good news! My friend's trial was yesterday and she was found innocent! Woohoo!!


Sweet justice was served.


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## Feira426

I’m so glad your friend was found innocent! The justice system can sure be scary sometimes.


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## Iluvlilly!

🥳


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## FizzyGoats

Damfino said:


> Good news! My friend's trial was yesterday and she was found innocent! Woohoo!!
> 
> Now that it's over I plan to lodge a complaint with the sheriff about his deputy. She's a real piece of work. She refused to collect evidence or look at the footprints and blood in the fresh snow next to the horse corral that my friend offered to show her. She just took the word of the dog owner that my friend had shot his dogs on his own property without provocation and pressed charges. Fortunately a lot of this, including some lies on the deputy's part, were caught on body cam. It seems like police officers can't be got rid of no matter how bad they are, nor how much proof exists of their guilt, but it never hurts to complain anyway.


So glad your friend was found innocent. 
And I’d encourage to go through with the complaint. It may not do a dang thing now, but if enough pile up on this particular deputy, it may help someone else down the line. 
I support our law enforcement. I was practically raised in a police station. No, I wasn’t a bad kid, just raised by a single mom who was a dispatcher. I got a ride to school every morning in a police cruiser. Though I was once unlawfully locked in a holding cell for refusing to share my nachos.  All in good fun of course. Only for a few minutes and it was a very small station. All these cops are the ones who drilled into my head the need to watch out for bad law enforcement. I don’t know many who are more bothered more by corrupt, lazy, or incompetent cops than the good ones. Filing a complaint may not help, but it may, even if not right away. Or there may be consequences anyone outside the office would never know about. No matter what, I’d say it can’t hurt to speak up about it and am glad you’re considering it.


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## AmberRae

So glad to hear the great outcome!! She was obviously innocent but the justice system can be very corrupt. I have two very dangerous dogs and they stay in a run that could keep a lion in. They do not ever come out without a leash and very secure muzzle. My yard is all fenced in and there is even a wireless fence that will shock them if they pass it but its just not enough after I have seen their aggression. They love me but I am not dealing with a child being mauled that wonders into my yard. I was so relieved the other day when my neighbors ankle biter squeezed through my gate that my dogs are locked up. Even though I would not be in any legal trouble if my dogs killed her dog its just morally wrong to have dangerous dogs not locked up. The same neighbor call animal control on me for having them locked up a few years back. I bet she was thankful they were when her dog got into my yard. Animal control confirmed I was right for keeping them pinned. I hate that I have to and never intended to have them live like this but when I saw their aggression and know what they are capable of it was that or put them down. Their cage is large, its two stories with their dog house upstairs so they get plenty of room to exercise, jump and run if they want. There is no excuse for a dog owner to ever have an aggressive dog at large. I would 100% defend my livestock with deadly force. Last time we had to shoot a bobcat I was devastated but my animals deserve me to protect them.


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## Damfino

AlabamaGirl said:


> Sweet justice was served.


I wish I could say it were. Justice would mean the dog owner and dishonest deputy and the pompous DA would cover all the legal fees my friend incurred, along with compensating her for a great deal of time lost in the last six months. She's in this thing for a good $10,000 just in lawyer fees. I won't be surprised if her guns the cops confiscated are jacked up as well. We'll see. 

"Innocent until proven guilty" my foot!


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## Nommie Bringeruvda Noms

Damfino said:


> I wish I could say it were. Justice would mean the dog owner and dishonest deputy and the pompous DA would cover all the legal fees my friend incurred, along with compensating her for a great deal of time lost in the last six months. She's in this thing for a good $10,000 just in lawyer fees. I won't be surprised if her guns the cops confiscated are jacked up as well. We'll see.
> 
> "Innocent until proven guilty" my foot!


That is truly messed up. I'd file a civil suit, to try and recoup my losses - then again, there's no guarantee she'd win that, and would then be out, even more.


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## Goats Rock

At least she was found Not guilty. I am sure that she is relieved that part is over. Thank you for the update.


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## ksalvagno

Great news!


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## AlabamaGirl

Damfino said:


> I wish I could say it were. Justice would mean the dog owner and dishonest deputy and the pompous DA would cover all the legal fees my friend incurred, along with compensating her for a great deal of time lost in the last six months. She's in this thing for a good $10,000 just in lawyer fees. I won't be surprised if her guns the cops confiscated are jacked up as well. We'll see.
> 
> "Innocent until proven guilty" my foot!


Well, all that wasn't sweet justice, but the outcome sure was!

I thought that if you were found innocent you didn't have to pay/the opposing side had to pay all your legal fees...

guess not..


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## toth boer goats

Good to hear.


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## Damfino

AlabamaGirl said:


> Well, all that wasn't sweet justice, but the outcome sure was!
> 
> I thought that if you were found innocent you didn't have to pay/the opposing side had to pay all your legal fees...


Recompense is only for civil suits and even then I believe it depends on the state. Defending yourself in a criminal case is a different scenario because your accuser is technically the government. 

And I found out that my friend's guns weren't being held by the cops. They were held by a friend so they were returned to her in good shape. 

Apparently the dog owner and his wife and mother threw temper tantrums and stormed out of the courtroom. The judge sent security guards to escort them out of the building because they were acting dangerous. My friend got home and soon afterwards the guy started shooting off some kind of firework cannon and some M-80's. Four neighbors called 911 and the cops came up and issued a warning. The guy said he was saluting his dead dog. The warning did go in his official record so hopefully he got the message. I wish they could get enough evidence to issue a search warrant because apparently in addition to M-80's, this guy has a machine gun. He has a prison record so I know he can't have a Class 3 firearms license. This guy is a real piece of work!


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## FizzyGoats

Damfino said:


> Recompense is only for civil suits and even then I believe it depends on the state. Defending yourself in a criminal case is a different scenario because your accuser is technically the government.
> 
> And I found out that my friend's guns weren't being held by the cops. They were held by a friend so they were returned to her in good shape.
> 
> Apparently the dog owner and his wife and mother threw temper tantrums and stormed out of the courtroom. The judge sent security guards to escort them out of the building because they were acting dangerous. My friend got home and soon afterwards the guy started shooting off some kind of firework cannon and some M-80's. Four neighbors called 911 and the cops came up and issued a warning. The guy said he was saluting his dead dog. The warning did go in his official record so hopefully he got the message. I wish they could get enough evidence to issue a search warrant because apparently in addition to M-80's, this guy has a machine gun. He has a prison record so I know he can't have a Class 3 firearms license. This guy is a real piece of work!


What a piece of work that neighbor is. I feel for your friend. Before we moved to this 40 acres, we had a neighbor like him. I seriously told my family that if anything ever happened to me, it would be him who did it so have the investigation start there. Living with a neighbor like that is like living in an unending nightmare.


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## Tanya

I am happy she was found innocent. I am sad it was at such a cost to her.


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