# Goat nuetering



## Rod Meyer (Jun 1, 2009)

Hi, I just bought a two week old Alpine from a breeder. He put the nueter band on. Its been on for three days and I come to learn from other goat people the its way to early to nueter. oops. 

Ouestion, can I cut the band off or is it to late. I don't want my goat to have problem just a few years down the road. How common is it for goats that have nuetered to early? I'm really upset about this cause the breeder should of know this. Hes supposed to be a goat packer and has over 200 goats.

thanks for your help Rod


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

*Re: Goat neutering*

Do NOT cut off the band!

The scrotum and testicles are already dead. Cutting the band now may allow toxins to enter into the goat at the banding site. Two weeks is the norm for most dairy breeders who like to get everything done early. Not optimal, but common.


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## Rod Meyer (Jun 1, 2009)

All righty then, it is done band stays on.
thanks for the help!

one more thing. When do the testies fall off?


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

*Re: Goat neutering*

It'll take several weeks. It will become hard and dry, then once the tissue underneath has healed the scrotum will drop off like a scab.


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## SarahJean (Apr 30, 2009)

wow .. two weeks!! i wait till my dairy kids are at least 5 before i even consider it.. but.. whats done is done


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

For people that are still thinking about how to neuter their goat I would like - again - point out this study done in Switzerland a few years back on which neutering method in older sheep lambs should be prefered

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16527503

as this link only shows the summary.... I have the original study on my laptop and will email it to everyone who's interested, just give me a short notice on my email-account or per pn


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

Sabine,
Please send it. Also, if we can get permission it would be great to publish it under our new heading, Health Articles. I am in the process of publishing several articles there right now.


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## gsbswf (Apr 5, 2009)

Since I didn't find the mentioned article, I will ask a question for the folks with more experience. When I spoke to my vet about fixing the kids, he went ahead and did some research for me. The result was a vet in Fort Collins, CO, who teaches at the university there. I apologize, I have no names or anything, Amy contacted him and spoke to him. The first thing I mentioned to my vet was that I wanted burdizzo, from reading about it on this forum. The vet in CO told my vet that the only time a burdizzo comes out in his classroom is to show the students what it looks like so they never use one. I think the term used was to teach them how "barbaric" things used to be done. Funnily enough, he has a student that is now at the vets office in the next town over. He has full confidence in her, we have spoken to her and she has agreed to surgically do it, and he has even offered to arrange to be on the phone with her during the surgery to offer advice and assistance. That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

I have heard of people giving a sedative, tying em up and cutting off their parts while holding them down. That doesn't sound right to me, yet has worked for that experienced goat packer. I see the recommendations for burdizzo as well. My big concern with most of these methods is that they originate from a meat animal world where large numbers are done at once, a certain percentage of failure resulting in death is considered statistically acceptable loss, and none are expected to live past a year or two. 

My story example is a local sheep person, who also has dairy goats. She told us a 10x10 pen with stacked hay and a blue tarp was fine accommodations for them because they are goats and don't do anything (yes, yes, they are nubians, but no jokes please). She couldn't understand why I was going to pay a vet to cut my goats when I live in a place with so many people who could easily do it, as in calf branding and sheep herders. She may have even offered to do it for us. She then told the story of a lamb whose guts fell out of his castration site, they stuffed em back in and sewed him up and then the inconsiderate thing decided to die anyway. 

I don't know the full detail of the method we are planning, but I know I had requested gas, even though the vet said he has used drugs with no trouble. I have heard that gas is best for keeping them out just enough, and to wake them up if there is any kind of trouble. 

The last question would be when to do it. They were early kids, late February, I think. It is snowy and cold here, single digits to below zero at night, mid 20 at the most during the day. I also have noticed how huge their horns are, how much bigger their muscle mass is, and of course, how beautiful their manes are. I believe the cut-off for the vet was 140 lbs. but I think that may have been a size limit for the gas machine, so maybe larger would be ok if I decided I was willing to go with drugs instead. The last time they got their shots in the summer they were 75-80 lbs. each. I Imagine larger now, although when I flip them they feel like 500lbs, so I don't know how much larger.

So, is now ok, or should I wait for warm weather? I could do a heat lamp and all that, but I hate to give them any supplemental heat in the middle of winter unless it is a true emergency, but maybe I am over thinking it since they already have their winter coats.

I also liked the idea of another growing season intact for all that muscle mass. They are like little horses with horns. I don't like dealing with all the aggression and the subsequent interference it has in their training. So if getting them cut now will calm them significantly, I would almost be willing to let them live in the house while they heal.

I believe I have gotten to the point of asking advice since obviously I have searched the groups ten times over and had my vet do research and all of that, and have found myself no closer to a solution, other than feeling like the Ft. Collins vet seemed to present his view in a way that made it sound like the best choice. For all I know, he is just talking about sedating them a little more and holding them down and cutting them off, but puts it in a much more eloquent way.

Thanks,
Gregg


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Gregg,

my two cents....

I've had bucks castrated with burdizzo and surgically but never banded them (that is forbidden over the age of 3 days here in Germany), with local anaesthesia and with full sedation plus local anaesthesia.

I will NEVER do it with only local anaesthesia again! With burdizzo and with the surgical method the pain while crushing/cutting the nerves and blood supplies to the testes is so strong that it will brake through the local anaesthesia. Heck, they will even react under full sedation plus local but they won't remember it.

Now imagine that you or Amy will hold down the guys that are supposed to trust you later in every aspect of life during this procedure! It will put a serious dent in your relationship.

Yes, one can still do it the "old way" if you don't need healthy, trusting animals. But you two have now spend already much time into training your guys, why not going the extra distance in neutering, too?

Many people recommend burdizzo because this method doesn't brake the skin and there's less risk for bacterial infection from an open wound but I've heard cases of tetanus after castrating with burdizzo and the swelling/tenderness of the scrotum will take 2-3 weeks to subside. Poorly done, with burdizzo you'll have a risk that the blood supply isn't cut properly and you'll have to do it again.

Surgically you have the risk of bacterial infection because, like in horses, most vets and other practioners leave the empty scrotum after taking the testes out - takes again several weeks to heal and you have to plan the date of castration carefully to avoid flies, etc.

My favourite method is a surgical castration, full sedation, local anaesthesia AND removal of the scrotum as well - this is tought to vets here in Germany but they seldom use it in goats/horses, etc. because it takes more steps and therefore is more expensive (and most owners don't want to pay for it). The advantage here is that after removal of the scrotum the vet will close the wound like any other. No open wound, no seeping of blood or fluids. There's a small risk that a fistula can form but if the vet worked clean, this is quite small.

I also don't know about using gas to sedate them, when I attended castrations the vet always used injectable sedations. In general, sedation is tricky in goats.


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

Well, somewhere on the internet are a number of studies of cortisol levels in goats during and after banding, surgical castration and burdizzoing and the burdizzo when done properly is the least painful of all three as it has less pain post surgically than the other two methods.

I burdizzo here and we give banamine before the procedure which helps with pain and swelling. We put them in the milk stand and just feed them some grain. SOme don't even yell when it goes on, but if they do it's just a quick baaa and back to the food. And that's the end of it. On rare occasions I've repeated the banamine the next day in case of swelling, but normally they don't swell or feel any pain after the first couple of minutes. I only so them up to 6 months of age, any later and they need to be done surgicaly.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

I still have that study - done on 3 month old sheep - for everybody who's interested in it. Just send me a short privat message with your email adress.


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