# My Goats are Dying



## newadamearth (Jan 22, 2015)

Hello!

Something is moving through my herd killing off most of my older goats, and a few pregnant mother's--one baby.

In most of the dead goats I am seeing these bald circular patches along the spine. Is this ringworm (picture attached)? Can they die of ringworm?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm so very sorry this is happening. How fast is it happening? Are there any other symptoms at all? Loose stools? Not eating? Limping or staggering? Are the remaining goats running fevers? What is the membrane color in the remaining goats?

My first guess off the bat is meningeal worm but I'm not too sure on that yet.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

First off, I'm sorry for the loss of your goats.

That is very strange. I would really recommend taking the deceased goats into a vet for a necropsy.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm actually pretty sure that it is Meningeal Worm because of the way the patches are aligned with the spine. Here is a good article: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/meningealworm.html

You need a LOT of Safeguard Dewormer FAST if you want to save the rest of the herd! I believe the Safeguard paste is a higher concentration and may be more appropriate in this situation, but if you have Safeguard liquid - start drenching!


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I was wondering if it could be meningeal worm, Katey. :scratch: Just not sure as I have no experience with it.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

If you can't afford a necropsy you might try contacting your state vet office. Sometimes when it can affect other herds or livestock possibly they'll do necropsy and other testings for free or reduced. At least they do in my state.


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## newadamearth (Jan 22, 2015)

SalteyLove said:


> Are there any other symptoms at all? Loose stools? Not eating? Limping or staggering? Are the remaining goats running fevers? What is the membrane color in the remaining goats?
> 
> My first guess off the bat is meningeal worm but I'm not too sure on that yet.


Other symptoms: When they are getting days away from death they refuse to eat anything. They are very sluggish, and seem to be unstable on their feet. When I find them dead, they have a bit of diarrhea next to them, and some type of bial coming out of their mouths.

(Sorry! That's a pretty disgusting description!)

I just took over managing the herd and don't know much about goats. We are trying to get them in a better pasture because I don't think they are getting enough nutrients. Started feeding them alfalfa pellets to supplement through the transition. That seems to be helping.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I would treat them all for meningeal and take a temperature. They may need CD Anti-toxin, or could be dealing with some kind of infection. I am SO sorry.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Okay, thanks for being honest about not having a lot of goat experience and also trying to get these guys some help! Goats can be a very steep learning curve, especially if they may not have had the best care prior! 

The number one thing you need to know about goats is: they are insanely susceptible to parasites - way more than any other animal you have ever dealt with! That is not to say that the parasites can't be managed, you just have to be aware of it!

I would guess that you have a major parasite problem based on your description and that the meningeal worm is just one parasite you are fighting. Are you able to handle the goats? Please pull down their lower eyelids and look at the color on the inside of the lid - per chart below. If you have already had multiple die with those circles on them then I would proceed with the Safeguard treatment at the high doses listed in that article I posted. You may need another dewormer after that to address other parasites.

Where are you located? Winter pasture has very very little nutrients. The goat in the photo doesn't appear emaciated but winter fur is very deceiving. Do the goats have muscle/fat cover on either side of their spines when you feel them?
Alfalfa pellets were a good choice for a supplement - but do you have access to any type of hay as well?


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## newadamearth (Jan 22, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your help and input! I think I'll be using this forum a lot in the coming months, because, yes, I am on a steep learning curve, and having to learn quick.

The good news is that the illness seems to be affecting only the older goats who weren't in the greatest shape when we got them. The younger, healthier looking goats seem to be doing fine, but I want to do everything I can to prevent the parasite from spreading to them.

A little more background: we are in southern Missouri. We are implementing a rotational grazing approach called "mob grazing" with beef cattle, sheep, goats, and chickens all in the same paddock. The cattle are all about a year old.

The point of mob grazing is to increase productivity of the pasture by mimicking the way pastures were developed by ruminants in the past. The goal of the owner is to create as natural and strong system as possible, so his choice is to not de-worm or treat the animals, and breed the ones that survive the transition. 

So...

any advice on what to do going forward to help the healthy animals stay healthy is appreciated.

There are some tall rocky hills in the pasture where the goats hang out, but they are having to get water out of a pond. Is this why they are getting these parasites? Do we need to get them water from a different source?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

They can get some parasites from water (Giardia and ??) and meningeal worm is especially common in wet soggy pasture conditions but in general, parasites are worst when pastures are overgrazed. As I'm sure you know, goats are browsers, not grazers, so when they are forced by lack of food to eat plant material very close to the ground then parasites abound. It is best keep a rotation schedule that keeps them off of a pasture for 3 weeks minimum as that is the most common worm schedule.

Do the goats have a high copper loose mineral available? Not blocks or bricks or licks, their tongues are much softer than a cow. Loose mineral is sand consistency and the tag needs to say 1700 ppm copper or more. Copper helps them resist some intestinal worms. The mineral may be formulated for goats, cows, or horses and may read pasture or range depending on your area. However, it will kill any and all sheep to have that much copper. If providing a high copper mineral isn't an option - then copper bolusing each goat may be.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I am so sorry for your loss, that is so hard. The picture of the one goat she does not look to be that old.

Where did you get these goat? Do you know if they came from a disease free heard? 

I would get a fecal sample of several different goats and take it to a vet and ask for a fecal float. They will run it and tell you if you have a worm problem. That is the best place to start in my opinion. I do believe depending on the pond sure they could be getting a parasite from it.

Are you feeding any hay at all or grain? If so have you double checked that there is NO MOLD at all? People think goats are like cattle and they can have the OLD grain or hay, they can not at all. They have to be fed more in line with horses. 

The patches of missing hair looks like it could be lice or fleas. They sure can kill a goat, they can make them anemic, so I would check the goats you have alive and make sure they don't have any. Really get into their hair and see if you see black spots or anything moving. If so I use Seven dust or Poultry dust. Poor it down their back good and it will fall into their hair, that will kill them, but you will have to do it to all the goats and the bedding. 
It might not be a bad idea to get a few to the vet and let them look them all over and do some blood work

Good luck, I hope that is the last of the goats that you find.


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

> so his choice is to not de-worm or treat the animals, and breed the ones that survive the transition.


That's an interesting decision for someone new to goats to make...I think I would find someone else to work for. :sad:


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

newadamearth said:


> so his choice is to not de-worm or treat the animals, and breed the ones that survive the transition.


He's going to end up with zero livestock and a lot of needless suffering on the animals part. Which makes me feel angry.

I would refuse to work for someone under those conditions.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sorry for your losses. You really really need to have a necropsy done. With all those animals together, especially the cows, you need to find out why they died.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I can definitely understand and support wanting to select for animals that do not require chemical deworming and thrive on pasture BUT the owner is going about it in the wrong way in my opinion. Using FAMACHA membrane color scoring, fecal analysis, and keeping accurate records is the best way to keep track of the animals that are less hardy and then selling the worst offenders and keeping & breeding the best. Buying a bunch and letting the least hardy die is probably less cost effective as well. I highly recommend chemically dedeworming them all immediately and then keeping records from here on to determine who to keep and who to sell.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

^^^Yes very well said.

Even goats that are parasite resistant would have a hard time not needing a chemical dewormer under the conditions you described. These goats are really set up to fail. I think it would be better to let the goats graze ahead of the other animals. That way they get to eat from the top which is more natural to them. This limits their exposure to parasites. You'll also be able to provide the loose minerals that they need without worrying about other stock getting into it. A loose cattle mineral will cost you around $20 for a 50 pound bag. A small price to pay for better kidding rates and healthier stock. 

Jack and Anita Mauldin bred boer goats for years and their breeding program centered around trying to breed some of the hardiness back into the boer goat. With an emphasis on parasite resistance and mothering ability. They no longer breed goats but they have kept their website up to date. It's loaded with info on how they went about doing this and I think you would find it very useful. I don't remember what their address is but if you search for Mauldin on Google it will come up. Good luck!


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## AncientBlue (Dec 21, 2014)

Would the guy you work for be open to an herbal dewormer like Molley's or something? I'm not sure if it would work, but my thoughts are something is better then just letting them die like that.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All great advice.

Sometimes chemical wormers are needed to save goats, even if we rather have herbal. Herbal isn't strong enough if they have them and they are indeed dying from it. The best thing to do is get a fecal and take it into the vets office. test for worms and cocci. Cocci is anothere thing in which can kill them, with or without scouring signs, you may see weight loss and thriftiness.

Anemia and worms can kill goats, it is a slower process but, gets to the point a goat cannot fight them anymore and become weak and parish.

If a goat stops eating, get a temp first thing, if they have a high fever it is pneumonia, another thing that can kill them but very quickly without treatment.

Lice are another thing to look for.

Meningeal worm is possible. 

How does the patches look, is the skin smooth, rough, scaly or?

Some diseases as well can kill a herd.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Not properly caring for animals and just randomly letting them die to weed out the weak is considered neglect and as such comes under cruelty to animals. Animals, by law, are required to have basic care and veterinary/medical services.

As was mentioned, worm resistance is bred for, not allow them to die and breed the survivors. Those animals are in a parasite pit and that owner needs to be slapped up side of the head...with a shovel. I don't envy you your job of trying to fix what he has broken. I wish you all the luck in the world.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Mob stocking is being used improperly here. The correct way to mob stock multi species is in series. Goats & sheep first, cattle second, chickens after cattle. The cattle "vacuum" up the parasites that would hurt the goats & sheep, eat their share, and trample the unused carbon into the soil. The chickens spread the cow patties and graze LIGHTLY. The goats come back to a cleaner pasture _after a proper rest._

Mob stocking is partly creating high-density to use every bite, but it's mostly allowing a proper rest. You don't mob-stock down to the last 3 inches of plant growth - you PULL the animals before you get that low, or else you jeopardize the plants' ability to regenerate new growth efficiently. Incidentally, the last 3 inches is also the worst parasite zone for goats.

Mob stocking started as a cattle tool. Blending multi species is a new iteration. The rest period for cattle is different from goats. Goat pastures need to rest for 3 months to allow natural parasite attrition. Think of goats as deer, not small cattle.

As has been said - culling for parasite resistance means a quick kill, or selling off the animals without the desired trait. It does not mean allowing a slow, painful death. Once you have set the animals up for failure by giving them conditions that promote parasitization, you are responsible for fixing it before you can make valid culling decisions. Or else sell them quickly - at the first symptom - so that the end buyer has a chance to keep the genetics alive, or to slaughter a goat that still has meat on its bones.

Your landowner is being a bad steward of resources if you let those goats simply die.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

That's bad animal husbandry, and I wouldn't want to be a part of it in any way.. quite unfair to the poor goats :/ . At least you're here looking for advice!


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## Sether55 (Dec 5, 2014)

I do believe this is Meningeal. I was warned about it. It accusers a lot in the early winter when everything is cold and wet. I'm so very sorry. Meningeal worms pass through deer (not harming the deer) and if a goat gets it from the deer it gets lost and finds it way to the spinal cord.


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## boerfarmer (Jan 24, 2015)

People like the guy you're working for are what give farmers a bad name and is what is allowing the 'animal rights' crowd to gain power.. as harley said, mob stock is supposed to be more of a rotational grazing of multiple species IN SERIES, not at the same time. I would say that in a perfect world, you would actually send the goats in before the sheep, as sheep are more of grazers than goats. Also, this would allow you to properly supplement copper to them. I would say that you now know why this job opening was here, I'm sure your predecessor refused to continue this complete lack of management.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

newadamearth, we might seem unwelcoming, but please understand - we object to your process, not you. We will happily help you with responsible goat rearing. We object to letting goats die of neglect. But we will help you find a way to either move the goats on or help them fit your farm goals.

I take interest because I have the same goals in my program - use goats to improve the pastures, and raise disease-resistant goats. Those are good goals.

If you really need to eliminate the "weak" goats - do a check. Do famacha scoring and body scoring. Take your bottom 25% goats, and sell them. Repeat weekly until no one is dying. Eliminate deer traffic from your pastures. Allow pastures to rest for 3 months before returning goats there. That will move you toward you goals.

You can't breed for "natural resistance" once you put up a fence. 

You've taken away half the goat's natural resistance - their preference for grazing over a wide area, preferentially browsing for high-growing vegetation. 

Once you constrain them, you are selecting for compatibility with your management system, not for natural resistance. 

A goat who doesn't fit your management system isn't defective - they just don't fit. Those goats get sold, not killed by attrition. Because, once the fence goes up, it's not natural attrition anymore, it's attrition through negligence. Digging graves is not profitable. But if you cull consistently by selling the goats who don't fit your management goals - you'll either end up with the strongest goats, or end up with no goats, but you'll have some money to buy new goats to trial. Keep them alive while you tweak the system, or get them sold. And the ones you want to save - we'll help you.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Harleybarely well said. I wish I could have written that as well as you did!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

^^^ What they said. If your boss is serious about raising hardy, low maintenance goats - and willing to make reasonable changes to keep those ones healthy - you might consider getting some Kikos, rather than having to cull so many of the herd you have. Kikos are bred to be parasite resistant and easy to raise; no point in reinventing the wheel.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

You really didn't describe the symptoms but from the picture I'd say deer worms.

They get them from grazing.

If the dude doesnt' want to worm them than really the only thing you can do is just watch all of them die.

I know people who were into "natural goat raising" that have lost their entire herds one by one to deer worms.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im very sorry you are having so much trouble..I really cannot add much more from whats been said...I agree with whats been said. But you came to us for help so, we will do our best to educate you so you can educate the Goat owners...what you discribe to me sounds like anemia due to worm load..slow declining weakenss, until the drop..Red cell is needed along with Vit B 12 and good quality forage...a good wormer to get them a good start..Ivomec plus would be a good choice...


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

I PMed the OP, worried I'd been harsh and scared him/her off the board! They are working on some changes, goats still alive, and will be back to the board later. (For anyone looking for a status update!)


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## boerfarmer (Jan 24, 2015)

Thanks harley! I had been wondering about this, glad the advice got passed on and proper changes are being made!


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## OGYC_Laura (Jan 9, 2014)

1. Not all kikkos are parasite resistant and that may be an unfair burden to put on a beautiful breed. I have seen some Kikko that get wormy easily and are unable to handle the load.. I own both boer and Kikko and a mix of both and I have not seen a significant difference in resistance amoung the breeds in Ky on my farm.. 

2. I graze for three weeks and then rotate.. Three days before roatating I check FAMACHA and worm who is needed and take note. Ideally they shed the parasites in the field they are leaving and then follow with donkeys and chickens to clean up. Each field gets three months to rest.. This takes A LOT of land and planning.

3. Did you find the goat dead in that position? Legs straight out would make me think tetanus or polio or listeria... If in a field with other livestock it could be damage from being kicked.. 
The only animal found dead on my farm in that position was kicked by a donkey ( he got out). The bald spot could have been them biting at where they hurt.. 
At this point there really is not enough info to accurately help you... But we are here to help..
Is there a vaccination program on your farm?

(Numbered to keep my thoughts straight, not to drive a point. So hope no offense taken.)


Old Goats & Young Chicks Farm
Boer and Boer Cross


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

You've got the wrong Kikos then. Breeders who are committed to low maintenance cull ones that have parasite problems; ones that come off of the buck performance tests can have very high resistance.


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## In_Clover (Feb 28, 2013)

That was a very nice thing you did PMing the person and checking on them. I think we all tend to worry from time to time whether or not we've been too harsh. It's hard knowing the sensitivity of someone you don't know, let alone on the internet. But your goal was to help the person and the goats, and it is/was the right goal. I'd really like to know if this was meningeal worm, as I know someone who had the exact same coat pattern along the spine and it turned out to positively be this parasite.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Great advice ya'll! I confess I got so ticked off from the first on this post that I hadn't checked back. My bad. I ranted and raved for awhile to my family, then went out to hug my goats! I too am trying to raise as naturally as possible, using free range, rotational grazing and such. But golly -- when you need to treat, you need to treat! It's like a chiropractor friend told his brother-in-law who had just fallen and broken a bone...the B-i-L wanted to know how this DC could help him. His response? "I can drive you to the ER, and after it's set and healed I can help you with rehab!!!" I love natural and (when possible) organic agriculture. Sometimes it's just not possible. :GAAH:

(Whew...I feel better...)


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Yeah, but I think we're pissed at the boss, giving instructions that make no sense in the real world (letting goats die) but make perfect sense on paper (but the ones who live are strong!). Not at the OP.

I started with the same idea. If I had the money, it would have been easy to hire someone and say "do that." And leave the figuring out to them. But I'm not rich, so I have to see my goats suffer if I fail to give them a chance to thrive. I pay the price in my herd, and I pay the price in my heart. So I had to learn how to do it right for both my goals and my goats. I don't envy OP's situation! I hope we can give help to help the goats, and help to make the case to the boss why changes are needed.

But my first comment was more about expressing my emotions about the situation than helping the OP. And I don't help anyone if I chase away someone who is trying to do better for their goats. So I reached out to make sure my venting didn't give the wrong impression. I'm not criticizing anyone else's response - we all spoke honestly - but I felt like mine deserved a little "ameliorating."


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Yes, my post was also directed at the boss NOT the op! The op came here looking for advice because he's trying to better a bad situation, I was not blaming bad animal husbandry on him. And I'm sure everyone else's posts were also not directed to the op..


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## newadamearth (Jan 22, 2015)

***Update***

Thanks again, everyone, for your insight and concern.

I brought all of this advice to the boss, and he wasn't yet convinced about worming. We finished the fencing on a new pasture now, and they are much happier there. Been there almost 2 weeks. No signs of parasites or death since, which is good. The boss wants to see if we can keep them healthy using the new pasture. If there are any parasite deaths going forward then I think I'll have a much stronger case for worming, but until then my hands are tied.

I did start another thread about a goat that died today from what appears to be a broken neck. Please offer any insight on that thread, as well, because this has been helpful.

Peace to you all!


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Glad you've got them some fresh pasture. The rule is no more than 3 weeks on, 3 months off. Pull them before the grass is down to 3". Chop pastures small enough and you'll do a world of difference for worms.

But... they still aren't designed for tiny pastures. They'll selectively eat natural dewormers in nature (where they have a billion acres to roam). Would your boss consider herbal supplements that help fight worms? Fiasco sells one, Hoegger sells one, Fir Meadows sells one...there are even cattle blocks with some medicines (coccidistats, anyway, I don't use them and don't know them)... If the goats eat minerals well, you can mix herbal wormers into the minerals. Not the same as deworming, not as strong, but maybe more "palatable" to the boss?

Once you let the parasite levels climb, the parasites create a good environment for themselves that's a bad environment for the goats. Medicine is the best response, and gives the goats a chance to fight for themselves (and, again, it isn't the goat's fault if they develop parasites in a system that favors parasites; a parasite-resistant goat can be lost to a parasite-promoting management system). But if your boss doesn't understand science, maybe herbs will be less objectionable.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

What if you even did something simple like adding raw acv to their water buckets? It's fairly cheap, easy and natural so your boss may not mind. At least it would help repel worms, plus keep your buckets clean of yucky stuff.


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## 4seasonsfarm (Jan 22, 2014)

top_goat said:


> Great advice ya'll! I confess I got so ticked off from the first on this post that I hadn't checked back. My bad. I ranted and raved for awhile to my family, then went out to hug my goats! I too am trying to raise as naturally as possible, using free range, rotational grazing and such. But golly -- when you need to treat, you need to treat! It's like a chiropractor friend told his brother-in-law who had just fallen and broken a bone...the B-i-L wanted to know how this DC could help him. His response? "I can drive you to the ER, and after it's set and healed I can help you with rehab!!!" I love natural and (when possible) organic agriculture. Sometimes it's just not possible. :GAAH:
> 
> (Whew...I feel better...)


Yes I agree with natural as possible! But let's be realistic tragedies happen. Some things ya just can't help that happened:/ you can have a herd of goats and nothing have ever happened and disease can wipe em out. It's really good to know your goats behavior so anytime they act "off" you can keep a close eye on them. then if they get sick you can treat the disease at the source. It's better safe than sorry. I've had a rough year in 2013 with my herd, and if you treat the disease right away there are much better results! I'm so sorry for your loss ill be praying for you and your herd


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