# How old is too old?



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

I've been wanting to start teaching my La Mancha/Saanen doe, Heidi, how to do draft work, and possibly pull a cart, but I'm wondering if maybe she's too old. She's somewhere around 5 or 6 years, and when she walks, her legs "click" constantly (not from CAE though!). She's quite perky, and likes to run with the kids, but do you think she's too old, nevertheless? :shrug:


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

I heard that if goats have "clicky" joints that they are mineral defficiant....Not sure if its true though


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

My CAE negative does have knees that click too. Not sure why, they just do. I f Heidi is in good condition and health then go ahead and teach her to harness. I hear of people who use older retired does all the time for light harness work. I think you should go for it!


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

I shouldn't think she was too old... I'd try it and see what happens!
M.


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## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

Thanks guys! :hi5:

TinyHooves, I had heard that too, but they have loose minerals 24/7... Maybe some goats are just naturally "clickier' than others? :shrug:

I noticed today that Hoegger is having a clearance sale on their harnesses, so I think I might go ahead and get the ground driving rig, which is only $18 right now.  This is going to be interesting though... Heidi outweighs me by a good bit, and she is _stubborn!_ But she's also greedy, so I'll use that to my advantage. :wink:

Any tips on training an ornery, 200 lb. goat who likes to get her own way?


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

I have tons of tips/opinions on training if you actually want them... re the ground driving rig..... not worth the money imho.... really all it is is a belt, with loops on either side and some long strings to attach to the halter. Much more monetarily effective make your own... on the other hand if they are having a clearance on harnesses and you know you will be wanting one eventually you might want to get it now.......

M.


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## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

Yep, I really am interested in all your deep dark secrets on draft training. :wink: Hit me with 'em! Right now I'm just trying to teach her what it means to be led... I did go ahead and buy the driving rig though... Yeah, it would be cheaper to make my own, but I don't have anything on hand to make one; so I paid the $20, and at least I can use it many times over. I think Heidi will be easier to work with, once she has a halter. It'll give me some more control. Right now it's just a battle of who's leading who. :roll:


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## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

Hehe, so I was watching your Youtubes, Miranda, and I am _very_ impressed with your methods! Are you using the actual Parelli methods on your goats? I wasn't able to watch the entire length of the videos due to my computer being slow.... I'm somewhat familiar with Parelli training, from using it on greenbroke horses. Never thought about using it on goats though; genius idea! :wink: And where did you get the goat sized rope halter? I think Heidi would do much better with that kind, over the flat webbing that I'm always seeing...

So yeah, I am really excited to hear some of your tips and tricks now!! :greengrin:


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## Ozark Lady (Sep 13, 2011)

I just got my Hoegger order, on Friday, I got the Deluxe work harness: 54.95.
Wow all the buckles and hardware...50.00 in just that!
I hurt my left hand, Thursday, it is in a sling, broke? anyhow, they won't cast it until swelling is gone. I will get x rays then, but, all I can do is look at the harness, and halter. I still haven't figured it out, no instructions, and poor pictures. No harnesses online look exactly like it either.
It is good quality.


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

Ozark I can give you some help with the harness I think.. if you post pictures.... (I'll edit them with arrows and descriptions of the different parts)

Caitlyn:
yes. I did originally follow the parelli program with them... I am not following it religiously now because I don't like the way they have become so commercial and because I think I have come as far with the goats as I can that is the same as horses (because you can't ride goats) but I still use natural horsemanship methods and basic principals (such as phases)...

Lots of my ideas about training are outlined on my website (it is brand new and I'm very excited) sites.google.com/site/2creeksgoats
if you look in the training section... I would start out as you are teaching her to lead. I made my rope halters... there are instructions on the site in the documents section or I can sell you one I make (for about 5 dollars including shipping)

If you are familiar with the parelli methods the most important part in my opinion are the phases. it is just impossible for a goat to understand what you want if you aren't polite and you don't release when they do the right thing... I've actually taught my boys to do a crazy jump/canter step accidently when I didn't release at the right time. so those are my thoughts for now... just in general... if there are specific things you are struggling with I'd be happy to give you my thoughts (or at least what I'd try).... just start exactly as you are with getting her to lead... and stop.... and go backwards...

M.


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## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

Shucks, I would be more than happy to pay you for a halter.  I am terrible when it comes to tying knots, and making my own rope halter looks a little beyond my skills at the moment.. LOL. 

She's doing pretty good since switching over to your pressure/release methods. For the past week we've been playing tug-of-war, as I tried to teach her via the books (which is repetition, and force). Yesterday I just played with her in the pasture, and did some yielding games, using the techniques you demonstrated in your video. And wouldn't ya' know it... She's yielding wonderfully now, and is no where near as pushy.  

If you want to PM me with your address, I'll send you a check for the halter.


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## Ozark Lady (Sep 13, 2011)

The only photos I have currently would be the one on the Hoegger site, right where it says Deluxe work harness.
There are two loops on the belly strap, that I see no purpose for. It shows them in the photo, but not what they hook to. And a length with what looks like a tiny pocket...for what?
I see the loops to run the tongue(?) of the cart through, but how do you attach it? Would the cart tongue have a hook?
I don't have a cart as of yet, figured I would get them used to halter and harness first.
I am glad for halter, my girls love a leash, but one does tend to run and half drag me to the barn. I need brakes on my goat! The other one walks nicely. They both would walk with me without the leash, until they want to eat something that I don't want eaten. I may need a bit on the run-away girl!


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

Caitlyn: I'm glad my methods worked! I know they do for me but that they do for you as well is an excellent sign 
(i pmed you)

Ozark lady..... wow..... that is a rather strange harness! at the moment I can't see how hooking it to the cart would work! in my opinion on first looking at it I would say that is was completely inapropriatte for pulling any wheeled vehicle.... but maybe I'm wrong! I'm going to call Hoegger today because now I'm curious!..... is there only one little pocket thing?

M.


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

I have the deluxe working harness and it looks nothing like the photo. The real thing works great! I have three different carts and wagons and it works great with all of them. The little pocket on the end of that strap is called a shaft guard and they goes over the end of the shafts. There are is a shaft guard on each side.


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## Ozark Lady (Sep 13, 2011)

OMG! There is two pockets, I just found the second one! I hurt my hand, so haven't been able to try it out. 

On the strap, that I think goes on the back is 2 "O" rings, I assume reins go through there. But on one padded strap, I assume goes under chest, is 2 "D" rings, with a loop in each, almost looks like thin collars...what are these for? It looks like they are on the side in the photo, doing what? Attaches to what?

Do you have photos of your goats using one of these?

Thanks for input, folks!


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

Paige: I'd love to see mores photos... I sort of confused... about breeching etc.....
Ozark lady:I think the loops you are refering to are shaft loops which hold the shafts up when you harness the goat..... But I'm sort of confused by it all now....
M.


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

Yes that is the strap that under the belly. The two "D" rings with the thin straps are optional. The straps are supposed to go from the D ring and loop around the shafts on both sides. I guess it is to keep the cart from flipping over but I have never really used them and have not had any problems. I pretty much just threw them out in the tack box and forgot about them. Don't worry, it took me hours to figure my harness out for the first time. I will try to find some good pics.


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

Ozark lady:I think the loops you are referring to are shaft loops which hold the shafts up when you harness the goat..... But I'm sort of confused by it all now....

The shaft loops are actually up a little bit higher. Let me upload a pick or two...


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

Here are some pics. Sorry they are a little dark. The second pic is my little brother driving my very patient cart goat


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

But how does the breeching work? I guess the pockety things are substitutes but it seems as if stopping would put undue pressure on the spine/front legs rather than on the haunches as a normal harness would...?


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## Ozark Lady (Sep 13, 2011)

Yes, the small loops are for the shafts (not tongue! ha). But there are 2 larger loops. Likely the ones in your box? :chin: 

I had thought about the stopping thing too, and figured that I would put something, like a strap on the shafts to touch the goats backside when stopping.

Bad news, hand is broken, will need a cast! :GAAH: So, I will have to get grandkids, or hubby to try on the harness. I get to watch and pet, not drive!

So, I will have more time to learn :shrug: 
One handed milking sure is slow!


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm so sorry about your hand!

are the shafts on the bottom or the top? it they are on the top then they are shaft loops to keep the shafts from going down. If they are on the bottom they are to keep an unbalanced cart from flipping over backwards.

Please be very careful about balancing your cart (if it is 2-wheeled) I think especially with this harness which doesn't have as much back padding as usual any downwards weight on the back band could hurt their spine.... so please be careful...

GOOD luck with your hand! I had you have a cast on my wrist for several months this year... I'll tell you I got really good at typing one handed...
M.


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