# Anyone wanna teach me about color genetics?



## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

So I find this fascinating, but I'm having a difficult time learning about it!!

Anyone want to bounce the different color possibilities I could be looking at from my goats?

Here's the buckling, I have no idea what to call his color or what genetic traits he could be carrying. Help? Both of his parents are colored similar to him.









Now here are my twin doelings. Their mom was a solid, kinda liver colored, maybe chocolate? Might have been roaned, I don't remember clearly. Their dad was black and white from what I could tell.









Can anyone give me the genetic breakdowns for them? Teach me?!?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The first thing you do is remove all the white from your buck and find his real color. With the placement of black and brown I guess either dark buckskin or black and tan sundgau. Sometimes you have to hunt through generations and/or breed a buck to find their real color. 
Black is recessive so, your black and white carries 2 black genes. 
Tan is modified so, your tan and white doe carries one black gene and one tan gene (most likely).

One thing for sure, there's going to be a lot of white markings.

See the big boy in the bath tub << He's white, right? 

Nope, black and tan. His "white belt" is so wide it covers his entire body except the tip of his tail.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Ugh, I typed up a long thing and it all froze and kicked me off. Lol.


So, with tan being "modified", does that just mean that the tan is dominant? Will that likely be dominant over whatever color the buck will throw, or is there no way to know? 

And the buck will probably throw a color dominant over the black, right?

His color is confusing to me. I understand that the white gets disregarded as it's basically just a bunch of patches genetically, correct? So he was black on his face, black and brown on his legs, and the part that confuses me is he has a spot near his spine that is black and orange. Like, a very bright orange. Apricot I guess? So I was thinking chamoise maybe? I need to look up sundgau, I can't picture it off the top of my head.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

My doelings are Sundgau


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Guinen is chamoisee, see the moon spot? That could be what your apricot spot is too.
(disclaimer, this type of chamoisee is acceptable for Alpines but, not for Nigerians :lol


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

A modifier changes an existing color. So you start with a black goat and the modifier changes it either to red or gold depending on which modifier it is.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Okay, so, he probably couldn't be sundgau unless the orange spot is part of a moonspot. Which is a whole new level of genes to look up. Lol!! 


And I guess I was wrong on the chamoise anyways, as his legs would be black then. 

So, if he's either sundgau or buckskin, (probably is buckskin I'd guess?) is that a dominant gene?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Buckskin is an interesting one because it isn't compatible with a full sized breed like LaMancha. There just simply are not any full sized goats that color. So I have no clue how that one would turn out :lol:


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Hmmm, interesting. So since he's a ND, being bred to minimanchas... Well, I guess we'll see, someday! 

I just looked back at pictures. His mother does look like she would genetically be buckskin, his dad looks sundgau probably as his whole head/back is black but he has brown on his legs and stomach. And then his twin sister has a black stripe down her spine and brown on the ribs so, chamoisee, but is that even possible? Lol!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, that is possible. So... :scratch:

Sundgau is black and tan with Swiss stripes. Black and tan is on it's own alelle because it's a pattern gene. It is a modified recessive. Oh. let's start at the beginning... I've got to go put my girls out in the sun to play, then I'll come make some charts.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Bahaha!! I'm sorry I'm giving you homework!!


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Try these websites: 
http://nigeriandwarfcolors.weebly.com/
http://www.hasitall.com/genetics/

The buckling is buckskin with abundant white and blue eyes.
The doe on the left is gold with white and doe on the right is black with white.

Breeding them together, you'd most likely see buckskins, blacks, and golds. You'd probably get a decent amount of white on the kids and 50/50 shot at blue eyes if he's heterozygous.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

But, what happens to the buckskin when bred to a LaMancha? The gene doesn't work or does it morph into another peacock pattern?


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

And you'd only see black if he carries a recessive black gene, right?

And you could also see something totally different depending on the modifier that created the gold? Or is the modifier simply "gold"?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

General Considerations of Pigmentation
Loci Controlling Color
Agouti
Extension
Brown
Moonspots
Patterns of White Spotting
Angora White
Spotting
Belt
Roan
Flowery
Goulet
Algarve
Barbari
Ticking


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

pattern symbol description

white or tan AWt wholly tan, red, or white, sometimes with darker shoulder, face.

sable Asb pale legs, belly, face stripes with tan body that may have considerable eumelanic sootiness. Can be white.

black mask Abm tan with black on head, brisket, and down spine. pale stripes on head. may overlap with white or tan. Can be white.

caramel Acr tan with minor black on head and lower legs, sometimes with a black belly, and usually lacking a complete dorsal stripe typical of the
blackbelly pattern.

bezoar A+ wild color: tan body, dark head with stripes, pale belly, striped legs and back. black shoulder stripe. More dark (eumelanic) in males than in
females.

blackbelly (badgerface) Ab tan with black belly, backstripe, lower legs, and face stripes. This is the Oberhasli pattern. Darker males than females.

tan sides Ats similar to blackbelly but with wider backstripe and nearly black head so that tan sides are all that remains of pheomelanin.

san clemente Asc black front half, tan rear half, pale stripes on dark head, pale legs and belly. Varies from dark enough to confuse with “black and tan” to pale enough to nearly be “black mask” or “sable.” The intermediate phases
are very disinctive. 

repartida Arp black front half (generally lacking light eyebars), tan rear half,
legs black on backs and tan on fronts, black sides of thighs.

peacock (cou clair) Apk tan front half, black rear half, dark legs, tan head with black stripes,including a distinctive one below eye and one above eye.

striped grey (grey togg) Asg Mixture of black and white hairs over body, with the pale ears, eyebars, muzzle, and legs of the toggenburg pattern.

grey Ag fairly uniform mix of black and white hairs, with somewhat darker legs,head. Varies from near white to very dark.

grey agouti Aga fairly uniform mix of black and white hairs, with distinctly darker legs. Typical of Pygmy goats.

toggenburg (swiss markings) Asm black body, dark belly, pale legs, ears, facial stripes. The Toggenburg pattern, when eumelanin is brown.

eyebar Aeb black with tan belly, rear legs tan on back and black on fronts, front legs tan on back with tan all around leg above knee and black on fronts
below this. Prominent wide tan stripes on face. Can have tan on rear
thighs. resembles dark “san clemente.”

black and tan At black, with tan belly, rear legs tan on back and black on fronts, front legs tan on back with tan all around leg above knee and black on fronts below this., light inside ears, light face stripes which are thin or just
above eye.

fishy Afsh black with front half of belly tan and rear half black. black udder or
scrotum. medium wide bars on face, legs with continuous black stripes down fronts.

lateral stripes Als as “black and tan” but darker zone on belly, reversed leg stripes (black back portions).
mahogany Am fairly dark mix of black and tan hairs, dark legs, head, minor striping, usually with tan thighs.

red cheek Arc black with tan patches on cheeks, back of thighs, tops of ears.

no pattern Aa black.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Okay, I'm going to have to reread all of that after some sleep and a lot of coffee. My mind is spinning!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I have the whole advanced genetics course from Virginia Tech. I could just PM you all the study material that pertains to goats...


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

interesting...there should be a goat kid colour app -input two goats and app spits out the colour combination possibilities!

I'll take the 5% royalty should any of you like to take that and run...


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

That would be AWESOME!! Seriously though... You could branch into dog genetics, cat genetics, rabbits, guinea pigs, horses, etc etc etc... The possibilities are endless!!

I would be totally down to a pm, I'm needing new reading material!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Already done :lol:

Click on The Agouti Monster, if it shows up in Dutch, right click the page to translate. http://www.edelras.nl/Henk69/Overzicht.htm#geitcalculator


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Mind. Blown.

Now I just need to figure out what all of the numbers/letters mean so that I can use it....


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Okay, double checked. Sire has to be black and tan sundgau from my understanding. He is black everywhere but brown on legs and belly. Twin sister is black and tan buckskin. I'm pretty sure mom is also black and tan buckskin so I have a feeling that's what Spencer is too. I'm just not at all sure how to know what he has recessive under all that or if there's any way to know anyways! Lol.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Okay so, I bred the black and Tan doeling to Dexter. 

Female side
Wh ?? this gene exists only in Angoras and Saanens usually
Belted BE be Dad is belted mom may carry belted she is fully belted (her sister is not)
Moon spot mo ? mom has moon spots dad does not she does not
White spotting ?? No random white spots
Brown ?? No brown of this type modifier)
Extension ?? Angoras again...

Across the bottom Black and Tan twice, both parents carry it

Male side 
??
BE be
??
??
??
??
White/tan and Black and Tan

Calculate = 100% belted Black and Tan


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Okay, I might be doing it wrong, but I'm getting 100% black and tan when bred to the black and white doeling, and 50/50 black and tan and/or tan/gold when bred to the gold doeling.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The genes for your buck across the bottom is San Clementine for buck skin, if that helps.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Okay thanks, that does help. I wasn't sure if it was San Clemente or Repartida.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Haha, that just makes it 50% shot of tan/gold and 25/25 for buckskin or sundgau. So, that's simple!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

People make it really hard. Goats only come in 3 color genes black, brown, light brown. 
They can be one color
Be one pattern 
Have one modifier (sometimes)
And white markings... That's it.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Can you explain the modifier to me?

What I'm understanding is that for my doelings, since one is black, her father was black, so the gold doeling carries a recessive black gene and then carries a "modifier" that changes that black to gold. Is that correct? And the black doeling simply has two black genes so all of her offspring will carry recessive black?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The allele white or tan yields unshaded, uniform colors that range from a fully intensely pheomelanic red,
through yellow or gold, and to white. The genetic character of the modifiers is uncertain, although most
manifestations of this allele cluster around deep red, medium yellow, or stark white and this suggests that
the modifiers are few in number and may well be a single locus. This allele is a component of the Boer
goat and other uniformly red breeds


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Ahh okay, so their mother would have had to have had the white/tan pattern and the black genes, passed black to one, white/tan to the other?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

This is a pattern allele though. The other type of modifier is how much color will be let through, the reason why a Chamoisee can be dark red, buckskin brown, or silver. I should more properly call those proteins...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Black is a color 
WH/Tan is a pattern, she could be a black WH/tan or a dark brown white tan. The pattern covers the basic color...

Black can carry dark brown or dark brown can black. Light brown can not be carried, the goat is light brown if they have one light brown gene. 

Take buckskin...
A black buckskin has a black head, shoulders, and points with a lighter body
A dark brown buckskin has dark brown head, shoulders, and points with an even lighter body
A light brown buckskin had a light brown head, shoulders, and points and an almost white body


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

This is great, following!!!!


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Ahh okay, that totally clears it up. Thank you so much! So fascinating.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

So Dexter is WH/Tan covering black he also carries black and tan pattern 
Guinen is Beozar covering black she also carries black and tan pattern
Guinen bred to a pure black Ober gave me 2 Chamoisee and one black and tan first then one chamoisee and a moon spotted black and tan the second time. 
Guinen bred to Dexter can give only black and tans because WH/Tan and Chamoisee can't match up to overcome the two black and tan genes. 

And my Subway sandwich is here :lol:


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## gegegoatgirl2698 (Feb 1, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Guinen is chamoisee, see the moon spot? That could be what your apricot spot is too.
> (disclaimer, this type of chamoisee is acceptable for Alpines but, not for Nigerians :lol


I thought any color was acceptable for nigerians?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It is but, in Nigerians Chamoisee must have a black belly and solid black legs. In Alpines they are allowed the lighter belly and leg stripes,even though Bagerface and Beozar are two different genes.


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## Greybird (May 14, 2014)

I have read through this thread twice and I'm still befuddled. 
I'm pretty sure that my 3 wethers are chamoisee, one solid, two broken, but two of them have black bellies and one has a tan belly.
My white goat turned out to not be white. In a strong light he is cream colored with extensive bright white spots and now he is getting faint face stripes as well as a black-tipped spot on his back. 
It's just a curiosity for me since they won't be breeding, but I'm well versed in other kinds of genetics and I don't understand why goat genetics should be so hard for me to grok.

This is a great thread, goathiker!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

So 2 of your wethers are blackbelly/badger face and the other is bezoar. 

Your cream is either a WH/tan or a dilute. A dilute is when they have so many pattern genes that one can't be dominate, so, they show hardly any markings at all.


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