# Guard Dogs



## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

We live in predator central here in northern Idaho but so far we haven't had any problems. We have all our fences tight on the ground and an open barn for the boys to get in at night. I was wondering about those of you using guard dogs. Whats the routine? Do they stay in the pen all the time or do they come and go roaming the farm?


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

Mine stays with the goats. She's 5 and has been in this pasture since she was 3 months old. She is really sweet till you make her babies cry.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

great topic. I was thinking about posting something similar yesterday because I'm thinking about getting a LGD in the nearer future. There are plans in motion to re-establish wolve packs in Germany - well, allowing to let them wander back in from f.e. Poland, Tchechoslovakia, etc.

They're already have been sightings in the north of Hessen, maybe 200 kms away. Single wolves, no packs, yet.

There are already programmes in effect to help sheep (and goat) farmers keeping their animals save and one point is the use of LGD's.

So far, so godd. But I have sommer pastures that are miles away from our home and winter pastures. No possibilities to build permanent fences there nor stables. So a LGD will become a necessity. But how to handle this? The dog/dogs would be alone with the goats for most of the day. Or should I bring her out only for the nights and take her home in the mornings? Can one/two LGD's effectively guard a herd without human support? Questions over questions...


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

The dog I currently have was born in the goat barn and kept there with her heard of goats and dogs until she came to me at 3 1/2 months. She was not imprinted on humans. She wasn't even socialized, and only handled when give shots.
LGD's in general are bred to think and act independently so if you can find the right breeder your dog will be bred to stay out all year round with her herd. My dog has never even been out of the pasture except to go to the vet when she was small enough to carry. Now the vet comes to her when I need one. Despite her complete lack of human contact she is very friendly and fine with stangers.But don't make her goats cry. She took my husband by the wrist when she was about 8 months and he was doing something to a goat she didn't like. She stood there with his hand in her mouth until I told her it was OK and then let him continue.

Having them with their humans too much makes them less likely to totally bond with the herd.

Although, my first Pyr was raised in the barn with goats but with people and kids around playing with him from day one and he was just as good at his job as she is.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Carolyn,

I see that I posted my question wrong. It's not about the growing up and sozializing but about the time "later" when he/she has a job to do.

I check the goats twice a day and stay there for at least 1 hour per visit but I have to work and the dog/dogs will stay unsupervised for most of the day.

I'm wondering if it will make any sense to have LGD's running with the herd when there's no one to hear their alarm and help them fight of predators.

And then, of course, the danger of hurting/(perceived) harassing of people and/or other dogs. The region the goats will browse is not very populated but tourists, wanderers, joggers, etc. will pass from time to time.


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

The dogs, if you have two of them, will take care of any predators very nicely. Depending on how many goats you have you might get by with one. 

We see these dogs up in the mountains around Bend, Oregon and they are left for weeks with their herds. The bonding to their herd is the important part. After that they will be fine with their herd. And very good predator control. Pyrs will bark a lot and create a perimeter that warns people off but very seldom do anything more without provocation. 

I've ridden horses through the dogs and also hiked, and although they bark they would prefer to keep their flock away frorm people so stay back.

You should look for a breeder you could visit. You'll find that a serious guardian dog doesn't do as well if only there occasionally. They need to take their herd as their only job.

Hope that answers your questions. If I can help any more just ask. I'm really sold on thee dogs, and one incident can more than pay for your dog in saving your goats.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

thanks so far.

Hopefully there will be still a few years until I'll have need of a LGD. If so, I thought about looking in Italy, they have a "LGD's protect from wolves"-programme already running since 10 years or so. The shepherds there should know which dogs can do the job.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

sanhestar said:


> thanks so far.
> 
> I thought about looking in Italy, they have a "LGD's protect from wolves"-program already running since 10 years or so. The shepherds there should know which dogs can do the job.


They have wolves in Italy? I always think of lots of people eating pasta and roaming through the vineyards. 

I'd be interested to hear about the program they have with LGD's. I'm sure they have a wealth of information on LGD's vs wolves. It may become handy here in the west where the government decided it would be nice to turn loose a bunch of wolves for all of us that live out here to worry about. A pack was recently seen running through the neighbors hay field and our neighbor on the other side had a calf killed and eaten a couple hundred yards from his house. A goat wouldn't stand much of a chance, horned or not.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hi Rex,

well, there are wolves in Italy, France, Switzerland, Germany, Poland, Spain (I think).

I found a very interesting homepage about large carnivores in general but also a lot of information about wolves. The publishings are in different languages, you have to see what you can use

http://www.lcie.org/

check under "damage prevention" and "education materials"

Basic prevention methods are LGD's and - in Germany - combining them with electronic fencing or stabling for the nights.

If you don't find what you need, let me know and I will see what I can find and translate.


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

One of the best preventives for predators in an area where you can't put a dog or llama is to put lights and a radio on a talk station.
My ex-employee thought she would save money on electricity and started turning off the lights and radio at night. Her cat was eaten in the driveway within 20 feet of her trailer. And that same week my husband was sitting on the trailgate of the truck late at night and a coyote came walking right down the driveway toward him. 

Needless to say they all went back on. Previously we have not lost even a cat for 28 years. And nothing since they went back on last year.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

sweetgoatmama said:


> One of the best preventives for predators in an area where you can't put a dog or llama is to put lights and a radio on a talk station.


 Hey :!: That's a great tip!


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

I don't know much about leaving a dog with the goats, unattended. But just having a dog patrol around the property, peeing on bushes, and keeping an eye on things is a lot better than nothing. The worst predators around are stray dogs, since they are accustomed to co-existing with humans. But smelling your dog's sign, and knowing that they are on his territory, is somewhat of a deterent. I'm sure coyotes are discouraged by this also. I keep my goats in a pen with an 8 ft high fence, in hopes that a mountain lion will be discouraged from hopping over it. My dog roams around the property leaving his sign and I think that keeps coyotes away. When the goats are out of their pen, tho, I am with them. I worry about my dog more than I do my goats.

Wolves? They hunt, kill, and eat dogs around here. Mountain lions? I wouldn't bet my dog or my goats lives on a mountain lion staying away just from the smell or noise of a dog. I know of one guy who's Pyr was killed and eaten by a lion.

Predator control in Italy, and probably all of Europe, is a politically loaded issue. What the government doesn't want is people shooting predators. So they create all kinds of other "programs" as an alternative. LGD's are probably very effective protection against stray dogs and coyotes, and maybe mtn lions, but how effective they are against wolves, I don't know. I know that in Italy wild pigs are very common, and are a serious threat to people (I should say rural people). But it's strongly discouraged to shoot one, since government policy is determined by city people, who are not threatened.

We have a lot of javelinas (small pig-like critters) here, and everybody knows that you'd better keep your dog away from them. They will tear a dog up.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

if you work through the link I posted earlier for Rex you will find enough information about which prevention programmes work and which not.

As the governments also have to pay the damage done to the stock in case of a wolve attack, programmes that do not work will be discouraged.

During my search for Rex I found enough statistical data from Italy and other countries (incl. Germany) that indicate that after introducing LGD into the sheep and goat herds the damage from wolve attacks dropped considerably. In the Lausitz in Germany there hasn't been one wolve kill since then.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

Did it say how many LGD's they were using? The wolves here run in packs of six or eight usually and have killed complete packs of hunting dogs in a few minutes. I can't see one or two guard dogs being much more than cheap entertainment prior to the goat killing.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

at least two, often four.

Unfortunately the most interesting reports are in Italian which I speak only rudimentary.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

sanhestar said:


> Unfortunately the most interesting reports are in Italian which I speak only rudimentary.


Yes that was my problem as well. I can only speak a few Italian words, like spaghetti and pizza............


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Rex,

the Carnivore Damage Prevention News - found here

http://www.lcie.org/res_damage.htm

may prove usefull. I only skipped through them but found interesting data already.


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## Lightfoot Packgoats (Dec 12, 2008)

Wolves are usually in a pack, sometimes only in pairs and occasionaly come one at a time. LGD's have been bred specifically to keep wolves from flocks.

That is one reason they are usually quite large as wolves can be large. Can two LGD's take out a wolf pack 6 strong? No. BUT, dogs are territorial (as are wolves) and the LGD's will have staked out a territory and will guard its borders against the occasional wandering wolf or pair. The wolves will do the same thing and woe be the dog that wanders in their midst on THEIR territory, for the resident is right by default and usually wins. 

Wolves are very smart and take calculated risks just like any predator and they try hard not to be injured. LGD's come on so strong and viscous that wolves will often go someplace easier, though not always. A desperatly hungry animal takes bigger risks. 

Remember, two 100 pound dogs going at it, for real, to the death is likely to result in one dead and one INJURED, regardless of which one is a wolf. 

To give an example. When we lived in Southern Cal I rescued a little Am. Staff (AKC Pitbull) pup I named Zach. We had an honest to goodness pit fighting dog in the area named Russell. Russell had been fighting, and winning, in illegal dog fights since he was about 8 months old and at the time he was 5. This was a battle scared veteran who had faced off and killed many, many dogs. The looser in a pit fight is always killed, either by his opponent or the owner after the fight is over. These people are ruthless and cold.

When Zach (who was missing his right front leg) was about 7 months old, Russell entered our yard when I had the gate open ( I was taking out the trash), his eye was on Bailey, my other Am. Staff. She was a dog completly incapable of violence. She could not have defended herself against a poodle, let alone an 80 pound seasoned fighter. 

Zach, who was still but a pup, quickly got between the two, staring hard at Russell, right in the eyes, you could almost hear him say, in Clint Eastwood style, "Make my day".

Russell backed down. Mind, Zach had no hope of winning the fight, but he let Russ know the one important thing that works with wild as well as tame animals, he was willing to die on that hill, right then and there, in defense of Bailey. Russell could see this and he calculated the risk, was it worth having some part of him torn, possibly off? The answer was no. 

Wolves do the same thing and that is one reason LGD's are pretty effective against them, it is not that the wolf cannot win, it is that he or she is very likely to be seriously injured and so a free sheep meal becomes more trouble than it is worth. 

I've done the same thing a few times and once backed down a whole car load of farm pickers. Trust me, Rex, I could not have won that one, but, I broke the ring leaders hand (badly) and then looked at the rest and motioned for them to come on. They left instead of continueing their attack on a 105 pound 17 year old girl. I knew it was hopeless, but I had my ax handle and I intended to break as many bones as possible before they killed me.

The bluff is a beautiful thing!

Charlie Goggin
Lightfoot Packgoats


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

There is a really good Livestock Guardian DOg e-list on the Internet. Google Stockguard to find it. I am not sure that it's a yahoo list.


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## CASDOG1 (Feb 1, 2013)

If anyone is interested in a group specifically for livestock guardian dogs, please feel free to join my Facebook group, Learning About LGDs. We discuss everything from the various breeds (there are more than 30!), selecting the right types (there are two types of LGDs, flock guardians & perimeter guardians), finding a breeder, socialization & training the working dog, how many dogs to use, introducing dogs to stock & stock to dogs, etc. Most of the founding members are either breeders, farmers who have used LGDs for years, or both. Please feel free to join us!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/LearningAboutLGDs/


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