# A new theory about castration



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

When I had my boys castrated at 5 months old, Fun Boy seemed to stay "buckier" longer then the others by at least a month. But he followed suit soon enough and all as been normal. We had the vet come out and he used the burdizzo. The one he used was a smaller one so he had a tougher time then normal doing them. (With the knowledge of the need of his services each spring, he has since got a bigger one). But he had mentioned that sometimes it doesnt totally work and if we found that it didnt on one of em, to call him and he would come back out and do it again.

Anyways, so was out with the boys a couple of days ago and was doing a little bit of horn training with em and was admiring Fun Boy's horns. They are much thicker and cept for Legions, longer then the others by quit a bit. He is also nearly as big as Legion. Also noticed, his beard is more full then the others. So on a thought, I reach under to check to make sure all was good and sure as can be, he still had a live testicle. The last time I had check them all you couldnt tell yet. They shrink pretty fast but it takes awhile I found for the nut to go from grape to raisin in texture. So the vet is going to come out in a week or so and finish up the job.

It only took a month or two longer for Fun Boy to out grow his bucky ways. Stop blubbering at the girls, mounting his buddy, Justice and to stop pee'ing on himself but he did indeed stop. When I let the 4 boys out in their loafing area, there have been a few times Fun Boy has mounted one of the others but there is no action beyond that. It not any difference then when a doe wins a battle vs another doe and to show the doe who is the boss, the winner often mounts the loser. 

This all got me to thinking about a possible new method to castrate. What if just one half was burdizzo'd on purpose? If the above is the norm, that they just take longer to stop acting like a buck, then leaving one side intact would allow for the growing of more body and horn mass and should also allow for a better development of their urinary track, right? I really could just barely tell Fun Boy was still intact. Now granted he cords were crushed so they may have restricted some blood flow or what have you but the one side, although much smaller then normal, is still alive.

So, would like to start a discussion about this and if anyone else has any experiences that would relate. Such as a working 1 nutted buck? Or if this happened to them and how it worked out. I am thinking I will select a boy and give it a try. How great would it be to put a little more substance on a packer, horn growth and less fear of UC?


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## Charlie Horse (Dec 16, 2012)

Perhaps a better way to do it would be to feed them some kind of steroid that replaced some of the missing chemistry for a while. Best of all worlds because it would allow you to turn it off as you pleased. I dont have any idea how expensive that would be but I think the biggest problem would be the regulation on such chemicals. I have heard, though, that the wethers grow taller than the bucks anyhow. I seem to recall hearing that about the palace eunuch from history, too. I certainly dont think it is the case with horses though-- Stallions are always more impressive.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I agree that wethers have the potential to be taller but for over all mass, a breeding buck wins hands down. Much like with the horns, the absence of testosterone restricts muscle growth. Now, I dont think the missing testosterone is the main cause of the under developed urinary track. But rather a minimizing of growth due to the castration.


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## idahonancy (Dec 13, 2008)

Knowing nothing about the subject I would look at it from a health risk vs health benefit perspective. I for one would not put my boys thorough the stress of castration one nut at a time. I would never want to see a goat suffer from urinary calculi but would it really reduce the risk of this problem? What is the risk of something going wrong with this split procedure and creating a health problem? How much are extra muscle and horn mass worth for a packgoat for the risk involved?
IdahoNancy


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

I'm curious what the point is in only doing the job halfway as opposed to just waiting longer to do the whole job. The hormones were obviously still flowing, so what was the advantage in getting the one side done earlier? Also, I wonder if waiting longer might cause the goats to display a more aggressive attitude later in life, since they would be larger, more powerful, and have bigger horns. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference. And would more muscle mass necessarily be an advantage anyway? It's definitely more weight for the animal to carry around and more to feed. 

As for horses, geldings definitely get taller than stallions. Stallions look more impressive and have more "presence" because of the extra muscle mass and the way they puff up and display themselves, but the geldings are taller if you stand them side-by-side. And usually leggier too. I would think longer legs might be an advantage for a pack goat since they can cover more ground, but I'm not sure it works quite the same for goats as for horses. 

Interesting topic.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Well when you use the burdizzo, (or the vet in our case) you do one testical at a time as each one has its own cords. An as they are put out, the only pain they feel is the dull ache of it after they wake up and if needed a shot of pain killer can take the edge off. Legion was the only one outta the 4 that seemed at all to need it. But his tubes were bigger then the other boys and the vet had to do each side twice so that kinda explains that. Anyways, so it wouldnt be any more or less risky or painful.

And as mentioned above, the bucky behavior only lasted an extra month or so. I still took Fun Boy out on hikes and did his water training and his horn training worked as well as it did with the other boys. Now, I would guess if you had two boys half done in the same pen there would be a little more aggression but at 5 months old, they just dont have the desire to be that aggressive. We pen breeding bucks together until they are about a year and a half old with little to no issues. There is always a dominate but that goes without saying in every pen regardless of sex or time of year. Fun Boy is the boss between him and Justice but Legion rules the roost when I let all 4 of them out into their play area. So Fun Boys aggression level now is as if he were fully castrated. And aside from the very occasional mount with no pump, Id see no sign of it at all. As mentioned he stopped peeing on himself by the 7th month and has lived next to does in heat all winter with limited interest. More so then the other boys, but nothing nearing a buck lvl. 

So if we assume this would be the standard. No added health risk. No added aggression. The pain part is kinda a wash I would think. The pain would still be the same amount but only half each time. Though, that would double the cost and put a hurt on the wallet  Then do the possible benefits make it worth it? As for horn growth, other then having a better set of weapons to defend with, I dont see any added benefit there. Though if they grew faster and did a more complete curve, the chances of catching a horn tip in the eye would sure be reduced  As for added muscle, I think that would transfer over to a much better pack animal. Granted we arent taking 50 or 60 lbs added pounds when mature but a more filled out and stronger animal. Able to take their loads a bit more easier. But the mian thing I would like to find out, is if this would indeed effect the UC problem with better developed urinary track development. And if it would, then this would by far make this a very worth wild idea. I dont see the first two reasons being enough to try this but if this could cut the chance of UC, Id be all for it.


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

Hmm... I wonder if all goats would respond the same way as your buck did, though. I mean, would some be just as "buckish" with one testicle as two? Also, I'm not sure when meaningful development stops in the urinary tract. It seems like it would be earlier than five months, but obviously I have no idea. I know bucks can be prone to urinary calculi just like wethers, but their busy breeding life keeps them from getting fat as easily, which may end up having more impact even than the time of castration. It's certainly worth looking into. It's too bad there's no foolproof way to keep the boys from having pee problems, or to know if your goat is pre-disposed.


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## idahonancy (Dec 13, 2008)

I have often wondered about genetic predisposition. My breeder noted she had never had one single report regarding urinary calculi in her goats. She has been breeding her Oberhasli line for 20 years. Could this play some part in which goats get the stones and which don't?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

When our vet comes out next week or so to finish Fun Boy am going to bring this idea up to him. He stays in constant contact with all of his WSU professors and will see if I can generate enough interest to start the brains thinking. As I dont wanna mess with any boys that will be up for sale, think ill focus on some boys that will go for butcher. Ill see if we can do a control group with the butcher stock. It will cost a little bit to have the vet to do em half way but if leads to good results, I think it would be worth it. Will keep updating as things progress.

ALSO, i liked the question as to when their UT is fully developed. Ill add that to the discussion as well. Thanks!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I would guess that genetics would play a part. As with many health related issues, I dont see why this wouldnt fall into that category. We are the are the same here. Never anything UC related in any of our breeding stock in almost 20 years. But I do know from talking with my vet, he is a firm believer in not castrating before the 5th month. And as we have the only pack goats he deals with, this is something he picked up in school. But another good thing to add to our next chat.


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