# Judge these FF udders!



## Ella Ruby (Apr 2, 2021)

I have learned a lot from reading this type of thread so I thought I’d do my own.
Both does are FF (freshened last April), mostly ND with a bit of Lamancha and this is about an 11 hour fill.
I have more photos/angles (including milked out) if you would like to see them.
Please excuse the sloppy udder shaving.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Hazel:
















Mocha:















Edit:
Here is Hazel with a 13 hour fill


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## Ella Ruby (Apr 2, 2021)

@Dandy Hill Farm @Feira426 As promised 😉


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Ok, so both of these does are also lacking a high and tight udder like MellonFriends' does. High, tight attachments are super important for an FF to have because it is something that will not improve with time, instead, it usually worsens from getting stretched out. Both does do have really nice medial for FFs though! I like the teat placement on Hazel better. Mocha's teats "wing out" to the side to much, but her udder follows the rule of thirds very, very well!! I can't really judge their foreudders from these angles, do you happen to have good angles for that? If you want, go ahead and post all the angles you have! Lol! And I would also be interested in seeing their milked out pictures! 

Here's a really good example of tight, high and wide attachments as well as a super smooth foreudder. This is my ND doe Sugar and her FF udder.


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## Ella Ruby (Apr 2, 2021)

Here are the rest of the photos. I had trouble getting good ones or their fore udders…


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## Ella Ruby (Apr 2, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Ok, so both of these does are also lacking a high and tight udder like MellonFriends' does. High, tight attachments are super important for an FF to have because it is something that will not improve with time, instead, it usually worsens from getting stretched out. Both does do have really nice medial for FFs though! I like the teat placement on Hazel better. Mocha's teats "wing out" to the side to much, but her udder follows the rule of thirds very, very well!! I can't really judge their foreudders from these angles, do you happen to have good angles for that? If you want, go ahead and post all the angles you have! Lol! And I would also be interested in seeing their milked out pictures!
> 
> Here's a really good example of tight, high and wide attachments as well as a super smooth foreudder. This is my ND doe Sugar and her FF udder.
> View attachment 212478
> View attachment 212479


Thanks for replying! This is pretty much what I was thinking. I personally prefer Hazel’s udder, do you agree?
Sugar’s udder is beautiful!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

From what I can tell, their foreudders actually look pretty nice to me!! And they seem to milk out good as well!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Ella Ruby said:


> Thanks for replying! I personally prefer Hazel’s udder, do you agree?
> Sugar’s udder is beautiful!


No problem! Like I've said before, I really enjoy these threads! Hmm, they both have their own pros and cons...I do think Hazel has better attachments and teat placement than Mocha, but I do love Mocha's udder from the side view...overall, Hazel's udder is probably the better of the two. Other things to consider, that you can't tell from pictures, is orifice size, udder texture, and ease of milking.

Thank you!


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## Ella Ruby (Apr 2, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> No problem! Like I've said before, I really enjoy these threads! Hmm, they both have their own pros and cons...I do think Hazel has better attachments and teat placement than Mocha, but I do love Mocha's udder from the side view...overall, Hazel's udder is probably the better of the two. Other things to consider, that you can't tell from pictures, is orifice size, udder texture, and ease of milking.
> 
> Thank you!


I guess I am biased toward Hazel because she produces a little more milk (she gives about 6 cups per day and Mocha a bit less) and she is also super easy to milk which is always nice! 
Mocha does have better tasting milk though (yes, we did a blind taste test) lol


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

What a great learning experience this is! I love being able to compare, it makes it easier to understand what to look for. 😃


Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Here's a really good example of tight, high and wide attachments as well as a super smooth foreudder. This is my ND doe Sugar and her FF udder.


Sugar's udder is gorgeous. I want some of those high tight genes in my herd! I am somewhat surprised to to hear you describe her foreudder as smooth. I thought smooth foreudders didn't drop down below the doe's belly. Am I incorrect?


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## Lil Boogie (Mar 24, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Ok, so both of these does are also lacking a high and tight udder like MellonFriends' does. High, tight attachments are super important for an FF to have because it is something that will not improve with time, instead, it usually worsens from getting stretched out. Both does do have really nice medial for FFs though! I like the teat placement on Hazel better. Mocha's teats "wing out" to the side to much, but her udder follows the rule of thirds very, very well!! I can't really judge their foreudders from these angles, do you happen to have good angles for that? If you want, go ahead and post all the angles you have! Lol! And I would also be interested in seeing their milked out pictures!
> 
> Here's a really good example of tight, high and wide attachments as well as a super smooth foreudder. This is my ND doe Sugar and her FF udder.
> View attachment 212478
> View attachment 212479


Great udder on that gal!!


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## Lil Boogie (Mar 24, 2021)

Ella Ruby said:


> I have learned a lot from reading this type of thread so I thought I’d do my own.
> Both does are FF (freshened last April), mostly ND with a bit of Lamancha and this is about an 11 hour fill.
> I have more photos/angles (including milked out) if you would like to see them.
> Please excuse the sloppy udder shaving.
> ...



I like the way Mochas udder looks, I do however like the way Hazels teats look and their placement. Are they mini Lamanchas or Nigerians?
Overall I have to agree with Dandy tho.


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## Ella Ruby (Apr 2, 2021)

Lil Boogie said:


> Are they mini Lamanchas or Nigerians?


They are not registered so I don't know their exact percentage but I think they are about 1/8 Lamancha and the rest Nigerian, Mocha pretty much conforms to ND breed standards but Hazel has elf ears.


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## littleheathens (Apr 27, 2019)

@Dandy Hill Farm Can I just say? I LOVE THE SPOTS. That would make me happy to milk every morning! She does have a very pretty udder. 

Hi Ella, I concur with the attachment and teat placement comments already made. Mocha's got the 1/3 rule nailed, the profile looks nice. Doesn't one of them have a little foreudder pocket? I can't remember which.


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## Ella Ruby (Apr 2, 2021)

littleheathens said:


> @Dandy Hill Farm Can I just say? I LOVE THE SPOTS. That would make me happy to milk every morning! She does have a very pretty udder.
> 
> Hi Ella, I concur with the attachment and teat placement comments already made. Mocha's got the 1/3 rule nailed, the profile looks nice. Doesn't one of them have a little foreudder pocket? I can't remember which.


Hi Molly! 
Mocha has a bit of a foreudder pocket but only when she is really full.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Ella Ruby said:


> I guess I am biased toward Hazel because she produces a little more milk (she gives about 6 cups per day and Mocha a bit less) and she is also super easy to milk which is always nice!
> Mocha does have better tasting milk though (yes, we did a blind taste test) lol


See!?! Both does really do have their own pros and cons!! 😁 If you could find a buck from high, tight udder lines, then I think their offspring would have really nice udders!! 🥰


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> What a great learning experience this is! I love being able to compare, it makes it easier to understand what to look for. 😃
> 
> Sugar's udder is gorgeous. I want some of those high tight genes in my herd! I am somewhat surprised to to hear you describe her foreudder as smooth. I thought smooth foreudders didn't drop down below the doe's belly. Am I incorrect?


Thank you! I guess I was mostly referring to the fact she doesn't have a pocket there. But you are right, the udder should blend nicely into their belly. 😉


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Lil Boogie said:


> Great udder on that gal!!


Thanks!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

littleheathens said:


> @Dandy Hill Farm Can I just say? I LOVE THE SPOTS. That would make me happy to milk every morning! She does have a very pretty udder.


Thank you, I love her spotty udder too! 🥰 I was actually very surprised to see her spots the second time I shaved her though!! The first time her udder was shaved, it was ALL pink!!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Thank you, I love her spotty udder too! 🥰 I was actually very surprised to see her spots the second time I shaved her though!! The first time her udder was shaved, it was ALL pink!!


That is so shocking! That_ must_ have been a surprise! 



Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Thank you! I guess I was mostly referring to the fact she doesn't have a pocket there. But you are right, the udder should blend nicely into their belly. 😉


Okay, thanks for clearing that up! 😙


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

You judge fore-udders from the side profile, you want to see as smooth (and as long) of a transition from the udder into the belly as possible to where it looks like the fore is one with the belly. You can see pockets usually from the side, but I like to feel. I milk from the back and will run my hands up to the fore and you can get a good feel for pockets and shelves. It ideally should feel smooth all the way to the belly. I have one girl that had a bit of pocket and as she has progressed with freshenings, it has gotten worse. It weakens the attachment of the udder. 

I'd look for a buck like said, high udders with tight attachments and width in the pins so that they have more of an arch and width to the top as it increases capacity. You have a good start to work with. Also remember FF udders change a lot with subsequent freshenings. When your doe hits 3rd to 4th freshening, their udders will have matured to what they will probably be for the rest of their life, unless it starts to break down. Mocha's fore looks better than the other doe. That too can change in subsequent freshenings. The other doe has a much shorter fore. 

I'll share a doe I have, her udder is one of my favorites visually. (also to milk as well). On this doe I would still prefer it higher as you want the teats higher than the hocks. But you can see the balance of the halves, tight medial, teats in the proper place and straight down. You can see her foreudder, not as smooth as I'd like but it's not terrible. I'm working on getting the rest of my herd (which isn't too bad) to produce this udder, just higher, smoother fore, and more capacity.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

And just to show you HOW much an udder can change through freshenings, here is that girl's 1st-5th freshening pics.


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## Ella Ruby (Apr 2, 2021)

Jubillee said:


> And just to show you HOW much an udder can change through freshenings, here is that girl's 1st-5th freshening pics.


Wow! That’s interesting, thanks for posting it.
It looks to me like her udder improved over time.


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## Ella Ruby (Apr 2, 2021)

I just edited my first post to include a photo of Hazel with a 13 hour fill, if you are interested in seeing her a little more bagged up (the first pic was only 11 hours)


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

I think Hazel will fill out a bit more with subsequent freshenings. Her teats might come in a touch more, and she might fill more at the top and be a little wider. However, I'd still find a buck that is wide in the pins/escutcheon area (try to find a grown buck with daughters you can see if possible) and well attached and high udders. 

Feed and management has a lot to do with how their udders turn out in addition to genetics from my experience.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Jubillee said:


> You judge fore-udders from the side profile, you want to see as smooth (and as long) of a transition from the udder into the belly as possible to where it looks like the fore is one with the belly. You can see pockets usually from the side, but I like to feel. I milk from the back and will run my hands up to the fore and you can get a good feel for pockets and shelves. It ideally should feel smooth all the way to the belly. I have one girl that had a bit of pocket and as she has progressed with freshenings, it has gotten worse. It weakens the attachment of the udder.
> 
> I'd look for a buck like said, high udders with tight attachments and width in the pins so that they have more of an arch and width to the top as it increases capacity. You have a good start to work with. Also remember FF udders change a lot with subsequent freshenings. When your doe hits 3rd to 4th freshening, their udders will have matured to what they will probably be for the rest of their life, unless it starts to break down. Mocha's fore looks better than the other doe. That too can change in subsequent freshenings. The other doe has a much shorter fore.
> 
> I'll share a doe I have, her udder is one of my favorites visually. (also to milk as well). On this doe I would still prefer it higher as you want the teats higher than the hocks. But you can see the balance of the halves, tight medial, teats in the proper place and straight down. You can see her foreudder, not as smooth as I'd like but it's not terrible. I'm working on getting the rest of my herd (which isn't too bad) to produce this udder, just higher, smoother fore, and more capacity.


Peach has one of the nicest udders I have ever seen! 😍


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Jubillee said:


> And just to show you HOW much an udder can change through freshenings, here is that girl's 1st-5th freshening pics.


I always love seeing how much a doe's udder changes with each freshening!! One of many changes I noticed with Peach's udder is that her udder has gotten higher with each freshening. That is something I didn't know could improve with time!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Jubillee said:


> Feed and management has a lot to do with how their udders turn out


Interesting, I have never heard that before!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

@Jubillee, I am gasping for air, that udder is so good! Mamma mia! How much does she produce each milking?


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> @Jubillee, I am gasping for air, that udder is so good! Mamma mia!


I know right!?!?! 😍🤩😱😲👌


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## Lil Boogie (Mar 24, 2021)

Jubillee said:


> And just to show you HOW much an udder can change through freshenings, here is that girl's 1st-5th freshening pics.


What a gorgeous udder!


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Jubillee said:


> And just to show you HOW much an udder can change through freshenings, here is that girl's 1st-5th freshening pics.


Why did you even keep her the first year?? Man, it’s sure a good idea you did!


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## Lil Boogie (Mar 24, 2021)

Ranger1 said:


> Why did you even keep her the first year?? Man, it’s sure a good idea you did!


Hey! you gotta understand a FF udder LOL


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

Jubillee said:


> And just to show you HOW much an udder can change through freshenings, here is that girl's 1st-5th freshening pics.


Wow! What a fantastic udder! What breed is she?


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I always love seeing how much a doe's udder changes with each freshening!! One of many changes I noticed with Peach's udder is that her udder has gotten higher with each freshening. That is something I didn't know could improve with time!


Well, that's one thing where I mentioned feed can influence (if the genetics are there) their full potential. That's when I first got her. I have learned a lot about feeding them to encourage good production and letting their udders fill and stretch as a FF. However, even through her next couple of freshenings it slowly got more wide. But I was learning feed all through those years lol. She honestly blew me away her 4F and then 5F. She is one of my favorites, such a good girl. I'm thrilled with how she turned out. She is a wide girl, so I don't know if she just hadn't matured udder wise for a few years or what. But she had room to fill up there even though it didn't look like it the first year. I'm still trying to understand how she developed so that I can use it to assess FF udders. 



MellonFriend said:


> @Jubillee, I am gasping for air, that udder is so good! Mamma mia! How much does she produce each milking?


Haha thanks. I can't take credit, I didn't breed her, but I'm happy with it. I have her 2-year-old son that will be used this year. This year she produced a gallon when I pulled her kids for test day. she hit in the 6# range on her tests the first 4 months (other than the one-gallon month). When her boys left, she settled into 4.5-5# for a while. She's bred now and about 8 months into lactation and making 3.5#. She dropped when hormones kicked in. The pic of the most recent freshening was about 4.5# in that udder at that time.



Ranger1 said:


> Why did you even keep her the first year?? Man, it’s sure a good idea you did!


Well, at the time, we just had them for milk and she was our first doe and I didn't really know what a good udder was back then hahaha. Then she stayed for sentimental reasons and she was a good doe. Then she blossomed! I have also learned to look for the basics in a FF udder and decide if I should give them another year...I don't judge my FF too harshly, lots of factors play into how they can freshen.



Calistar said:


> Wow! What a fantastic udder! What breed is she?


She's an F1 Mini-Nubian. 50/50%. So half ND and half Nubian.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

BUT all that to say, @Ella Ruby I think Hazel will surprise you. I would feed her good alfalfa and a good grain on the stand when she freshens again (even now) and next year I bet she looks even better. 

Mocha ( I have a Mocha too!) her attachments won't get better, and might even get worse over time and her teats may come in a touch, but will probably always wing out a little.


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

Wowza, nice rear udder height on Peach.


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