# Bo-Se and Copper questions



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

My girls got Bo-Se the beginning of May.. A little later then I would have liked, but, that's when they vet came out.. I would like to get them on a schedule of once a month before breeding (so about now) and once a month before kidding.. Would it be too soon to give them their 'before breeding' shot now?? Should I just wait and just give them the one before kidding and get on schedule that way? 

Oh, and the girls will be due for copper around the time of breeding/a few weeks bred.. I have heard a few things on copper in early pregnancy... Have any of you used copper in early pregnancy safely?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I don't want to hijack, but I have just been reading a little about BoSe. I had no idea it was used so often!  I thought it was something ti use in an emergency if a goat was sick, etc. I'd like to know how often most give it, or what's reccomended. Thanks


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Most breeders I'm my area use it twice a year at the times I mentioned above. I know some use it once a year at one of the times mentioned above.. I have been researching it a bit, and my girls were a bit deficient.. So I would like to do it two times a year. At least for my does.. My bucks will probably get it once a year and we will see how they do.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

I give it before breeding, mid term and before kidding. I also give them a selenium/Vit E powdered supplement made for horses in their grain once a week year round.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thank you!


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

So you think it will be ok to give it to them now?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I give mine a shot before breeding and a shot 6 weeks prior to kidding.

I give copper the same way but a little bit lower dose prior to kidding. But now that I am using Replamin Plus, I'm not sure what I will do with the copper bolus.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks Karen  so I'll get weights and get doses all set today


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

We do BoSe shortly before breeding & 10 days-2 weeks before kidding. And on newborns if I think they need it.
As for copper blousing I only did it on a buck who didn't know what loose minerals were.
Goat feeds do not have enough copper, period. Or selenium & Vitamin E to make a difference.


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## erica4481 (Mar 26, 2013)

The lady I bought my new pygmy does told me that she lost 10 babies at birth all at 1 time and that she started giving the does each a shot of bose once a month and hasn't had any trouble since.she told me to get a prescription from my vet and continue dosing them once a month also. Is this something I should do or not?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It depends on your area but I wouldn't think you would have to do it monthly. But each farm has to figure out what their goats need. Some need more BoSe than others.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

What the biggest indicator that they need it?


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Erica I'd look into your loose minerals closely before proceeding with monthly injections of BoSe. That's a bit much .


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## Micgrace (Sep 22, 2012)

WHAT EXACTLY IS BoSe FOR?


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## erica4481 (Mar 26, 2013)

nancy d said:


> Erica I'd look into your loose minerals closely before proceeding with monthly injections of BoSe. That's a bit much .


Yes that's what I thought also.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Micgrace said:


> WHAT EXACTLY IS BoSe FOR?


Selenium. Giving your goats more selenium into their system. Most places are selenium deficient and they need selenium for strong muscles and tendons. Affects a host of other things too.

Selenium and copper are very important to have at proper levels in your goat. That is why people do the BoSe shots and copper boluses.


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

Goats have a very high metabolic rate, but I would still be cautious with Se and Cu. I doubt you could hurt a goat with Cu rod bolus or BoSe injections once a month in depeleted areas. But, I would be careful if you have high Cu and Se minerals out and higher Cu and Se feed and then giving full dose BoSe inj. and additional Cu. Get a blood work up and see what the levels are if you are concerned.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

We have enough selenium in our mineral mix (and in our grain) that we dont need to bo se anyone cept new born babies.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

For Erica, if you want to spend the money, I would blood test your goats for Se prior to giving them their BoSe, if they are low give them a shot then wait about a month or so and test again to see how the levels are. If they are still in the ok range I would wait until about the 6 month post BoSe shot, test again and see what their levels are if they are low at that time I would give another shot, then wait maybe 4 months and run a test. This would all be to have a better idea of how long the BoSe is lasting in their systems and how often you need to give it. If their levels are continually low I would be looking into a custom mineral mix with higher Se levels or at giving them the horse selenium supplement so you don't have to inject them all the time.

Personally, I give my bucks and does a shot of MuSe about 3-4 weeks pre breeding, then give the bucks a shot in the spring and the does each get a shot about 3-4 weeks pre kidding. None of my kids ever show a selenium deficiency and I actually do live in an area that is ok on selenium levels but because most of what my goats eat is not grown here in my area I do supplement them. Every one gets copper bolused twice a year which happens in January and in July.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

It sounds like most are just kinda guessing at how often to give Bose. I would start out with only doseing once or twice a year. Selenium can be toxic if too much and will actually show the same signs of def. When really they are getting too much. I just got a bottle of Bose for a few that I think needed it and am think of doing the per birth shots.....still thinking lol. Anyhow point here Bose can be toxic so keep that in mind


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## WalshKidsGoats (Nov 27, 2012)

I give Bo-Se twice a year, before breeding and before kidding like you said. I've been giving copper every 3-4 months, some of my does were very copper deficient so I dosed them more often for a while. I have never heard anything about giving copper during early pregnancy, I'll have to look into that!


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## Frosty (Feb 13, 2010)

I cannot get my girls to eat loose minerals at all. The only way is if I have some in my hand and stick it on their mouth they lick it off but won't eat it on their own. I am thinking of copper bolus them this weekend when I have help are they to young for that. by the way I have mama pro minerals.


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

Frosty said:


> I cannot get my girls to eat loose minerals at all. The only way is if I have some in my hand and stick it on their mouth they lick it off but won't eat it on their own. I am thinking of copper bolus them this weekend when I have help are they to young for that. by the way I have mama pro minerals.


Mine will go 2 or 3 months and not touch the loose minerals. But, then decided they are the best thing ever and eat them every day and fight over them.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I absolutely hate giving injections unless absolutely necessary. Supposedly we are in deficient area and who knows if our feed/hay is also. We give the Sel.-EGel twice a year orally. Most all of our goats like the taste and we have found this to be efficient enough without giving shots. We havent had any sick or weak babies born here at all and have no signs of any being deficient but we also give good minerals.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Frosty said:


> I cannot get my girls to eat loose minerals at all. The only way is if I have some in my hand and stick it on their mouth they lick it off but won't eat it on their own. I am thinking of copper bolus them this weekend when I have help are they to young for that. by the way I have mama pro minerals.


I know what you mean! My doelings will eat it for some reason, but my 3 grown Alpines won't touch it most of the time. :shrug: I was getting really worried that they weren't getting enough, so sometimes I will sit there for ages while they pick at it out of my hand, but they will only occasionally do that. I did copper bolus recently, and I hope to give BoSe soon, so I guess they'll be okay.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

Frosty said:


> I cannot get my girls to eat loose minerals at all. The only way is if I have some in my hand and stick it on their mouth they lick it off but won't eat it on their own. I am thinking of copper bolus them this weekend when I have help are they to young for that. by the way I have mama pro minerals.


I would try another brand of mineral, maybe a cow mineral. Sometimes if the mineral is older they won't like it, even if you just bought it who knows how long it sat at the feed store. In a sealed bag it shouldn't go bad, but may not be as fresh or could have been a bad batch.

My goats usually don't eat much minerals during the summer, but in the winter/spring when they are pregnant they will usually go through a 50 lb bag every 2 weeks or so.

I've bolused kids as young as 4 months, I personally wouldn't do any that are younger than that.


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## cher1190 (Aug 9, 2013)

Ok. I feel a little bit silly, first time goat mommy here, what is BoSe? I don't know what it is so not sure I need it for my two wethers. And do I need to give copper too? I thought giving them the Manna Minerals, salt and baking soda free choice plus their hay, water worming and such was good, am I missing some of the things that they need? Thanks


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

cher1190 said:


> Ok. I feel a little bit silly, first time goat mommy here, what is BoSe? I don't know what it is so not sure I need it for my two wethers. And do I need to give copper too? I thought giving them the Manna Minerals, salt and baking soda free choice plus their hay, water worming and such was good, am I missing some of the things that they need? Thanks


BoSe is selenium.

Stop giving your boys free choice baking soda. It deactivates ammonium chloride which is very important to them.


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## kbluebkeman (Jul 22, 2013)

BoSe is Selenium with Vitamin E added to it (the vitamin E helps the body absorb the Selenium better).

In talking/working/buying from reputable/respected breeders in the New England region BoSe is generally given twice a year....in the fall before breeding and about a month before kidding. BoSe can be administered in very small doses to kids that are thriving well......or to an adult who is also not thriving well......but the general rule of thumb for healthy breeding animals is twice a year.


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## kbluebkeman (Jul 22, 2013)

That was suppose to be: kids that AREN"T thriving well.........sorry.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> I give mine a shot before breeding and a shot 6 weeks prior to kidding.
> 
> I give copper the same way but a little bit lower dose prior to kidding. But now that I am using Replamin Plus, I'm not sure what I will do with the copper bolus.


Curious with the Replamin Plus, do you give it to everyone every week, or just your does, and possibly bucks? Just curious because I still have a girl that well I think she needs a little extra of everything.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I did the Replamin Plus weekly for a month. I was already seeing results using it but decided to back off a bit since they were doing so well. Plus they do eat their minerals. So now I do once a month for everyone. I'm still playing around with the frequency though. I only have 3 girls but I would be giving to all the goats that I have.

For your one girl, I would do weekly and just keep an eye on her.


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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

I would like to know if there is any other way besides copper blouses to get a goat's copper level up. I know Miracle needs it. Never been dosed and refuses to eat loose minerals.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> I did the Replamin Plus weekly for a month. I was already seeing results using it but decided to back off a bit since they were doing so well. Plus they do eat their minerals. So now I do once a month for everyone. I'm still playing around with the frequency though. I only have 3 girls but I would be giving to all the goats that I have.
> 
> For your one girl, I would do weekly and just keep an eye on her.


Where do you order yours? I just looked online and the ones I found are not for goats. Is it the same stuff just dosed differently for goats?


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Frosty said:


> I cannot get my girls to eat loose minerals at all. The only way is if I have some in my hand and stick it on their mouth they lick it off but won't eat it on their own. I am thinking of copper bolus them this weekend when I have help are they to young for that. by the way I have mama pro minerals.


Let me know if you need any copper, we have tons and it expires next June.. So we need to get some gone


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

caprine crazy said:


> I would like to know if there is any other way besides copper blouses to get a goat's copper level up. I know Miracle needs it. Never been dosed and refuses to eat loose minerals.


I guess you can try Replamin Plus, it has high copper. Why don't you want to copper bolus? My crew were stinkers the last time I copper bolused but we got through it


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

caprine crazy said:


> I would like to know if there is any other way besides copper blouses to get a goat's copper level up. I know Miracle needs it. Never been dosed and refuses to eat loose minerals.


That really is the best way to do it. If she refuses to eat minerals, then you may want to look into the Replamin Plus and give it to her weekly.

This is where I get the Replamin Plus (ignore that goats shouldn't have it, only sheep shouldn't have it): http://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/details/Replamin-Gel-and-Replamin-Gel-Plus/498-200.html


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Thank you Ksalvagano I'm wondering if sheep really are that sensitive to copper..., reason being is I met a lady yesterday that had 5 goats and 3 sheep, all different kinds. They were all between 6 & 10 years old she has had them all since they were little. I asked her about what minerals she used and she said the manna pro minerals. I asked to see the bag, and in small print it states "not for sheep" I then asked how long she had been giving these minerals, and she told me for several years since she started owning them and found out they needed minerals. The same kind of scenario when I picked up Bella, he had sheep showed me what he was feeding, if I recall right it was the sweetlix max, 15 or 18 (?) or something like that of copper. He said the same thing... He's been giving this stiff to both for years. Now he is the one who actually weans the kids at 4 weeks, that why I wasn't too sure about that... Kind of makes me wonder though... Sorry! I'm rambling on and thinking out loud...


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I think that there is evidently some sheep species that are sensitive to copper.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Sheep are unique in that they accumulate copper in the liver more readily than other farm animals. As a result, they are very susceptible to Cu toxicity (poisoning). Mature ewes of British breed origin appear to be the most vulnerable and there is evidence to suggest that Finn Sheep and Texels also have a tendency to accumulate more Cu in the liver than other breeds. 
Copper is essential for life. It is required for normal iron metabolism, synthesis of elastin and collagen, melanin production and integrity of the central nervous system. It is essential in keratin (wool) production. More recently, it has been shown that copper is one of the key trace minerals required for an effective immune response. Signs of deficiency include anemia, brittle or fragile bones, loss of hair or wool pigmentation and poor wool growth. In sheep, stringy wool and "swayback" are commonly reported. 
Generally, sheep require about 5 ppm (parts per million or mg/kg) of Cu in their total diet. Toxicity can occur at levels above 25 ppm. However, dietary molybdenum (Mo) levels also affect copper requirements, as Mo forms an insoluble complex with Cu to prevent copper absorption. If molybdenum levels are low ( less than 1 ppm), sheep are more susceptible to Cu toxicity. If Mo intakes exceed 10 ppm, Cu deficiency may occur on diets that would normally be adequate. Sulfur (S) further complicates the Cu:Mo relationship by binding with the Mo


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Okay, that makes sense... I actually gave calf manna to my sheep when they first started eating grain. A cup am and a cup pm... They are healthy and happy. I did make a choice to get goat and sheep minerals, and to copper bolus my goats, but I might try this Replamin Plus..


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## SunnydaleBoers (Jul 28, 2012)

GTAllen said:


> Goats have a very high metabolic rate, but I would still be cautious with Se and Cu. I doubt you could hurt a goat with Cu rod bolus or BoSe injections once a month in depeleted areas. But, I would be careful if you have high Cu and Se minerals out and higher Cu and Se feed and then giving full dose BoSe inj. and additional Cu. Get a blood work up and see what the levels are if you are concerned.


I would agree with this and add that these are both minerals that are going to be present in your soil (and as a result your pasture) as well. If you're providing a good loose mineral most animals aren't going to need any additional supplements, unless you're in an area that's severely deficient. A quick call to your local extension agent should be able to answer that question. It is possible to overdose an animal on selenium, and there are areas of the country that have an abundance in the soil (again, your ag agent ought to be able to advise on that one as well).

There are times that I can see the benefit of additional supplements, but overall if you're feeding a good balanced ration your animals shouldn't need supplementation- regardless of the species. We've always set out salt blocks and mineral, but they've been more of a "just in case" than due to any real perceived need. The rumen is a pretty neat organ- as long as it's getting the right fuel it's capable of synthesizing most of the micro-nutrients the animal needs.


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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

janeen128 said:


> I guess you can try Replamin Plus, it has high copper. Why don't you want to copper bolus? My crew were stinkers the last time I copper bolused but we got through it


A: I don't have a boluser
B: I only have one goat so it would be a waste for me to get a whole bunch of cattle boluses. I don't know anyone in my area that boluses that I could share with and I don't have an accurate weight on Miracle. 
C: It would be a pain the butt. She's a Boer, so it's not like she's really little, plus she's horned and knows how to use them well. 
D: Giving a shot is easier IMO.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

caprine crazy said:


> A: I don't have a boluser
> B: I only have one goat so it would be a waste for me to get a whole bunch of cattle boluses. I don't know anyone in my area that boluses that I could share with and I don't have an accurate weight on Miracle.
> C: It would be a pain the butt. She's a Boer, so it's not like she's really little, plus she's horned and knows how to use them well.
> D: Giving a shot is easier IMO.


I don't have a boluser either, but if you do get a copper bolus, you can put it in a PB&J sandwich and down the hatch it goes I had to do that with my bratty girls, they are big too..


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

caprine crazy said:


> A: I don't have a boluser
> B: I only have one goat so it would be a waste for me to get a whole bunch of cattle boluses. I don't know anyone in my area that boluses that I could share with and I don't have an accurate weight on Miracle.
> C: It would be a pain the butt. She's a Boer, so it's not like she's really little, plus she's horned and knows how to use them well.
> D: Giving a shot is easier IMO.


A: $1.25 for a bolus gun
B: A lot of folks on here would send you some 4gr for the cost of them. It's one 4grs bolus for over 50lbs
C: If you can give oral meds then you can bolus a goat
D: injections are easier but a copper bolus last much much longer


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## LamanchaAcres (Jan 11, 2013)

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> Let me know if you need any copper, we have tons and it expires next June.. So we need to get some gone


Would you be willing to sell some to others? We have a few that need some. They have redish tints in their hair. Id be interested if you would be willing to.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Yah send me a PM


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## cher1190 (Aug 9, 2013)

I didn't know that about the baking soda, the lady I bought them from told me to give them the baking soda and salt free choice, should I stop giving the salt with iodine in it free choice too? I know that the Manna Pro goat minerals have this in it too, so I'm confused on exactly what I need to give them on a daily basis, any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you have a good loose goat mineral out, which Manna Pro is, then you don't need to leave out any extra salt. The mineral should take care of their mineral needs. Have that out free choice.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Oh thanks, I was just about to ask that.


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## rssgnl27 (May 9, 2012)

cher1190 said:


> I didn't know that about the baking soda, the lady I bought them from told me to give them the baking soda and salt free choice, should I stop giving the salt with iodine in it free choice too? I know that the Manna Pro goat minerals have this in it too, so I'm confused on exactly what I need to give them on a daily basis, any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks


I give my buck a white salt lick and the manna pro goat mineral for the ammonium chloride. Seems to work well. I want him to have as much salt as he wants without the added minerals. The white salt makes them drink more (flushing the urinary system). I've been warned against the baking soda for whethers and bucks. It's fine for does, although I prefer to use probios in their food if I have one with a finicky rumen.


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## HalfAChanceFarm (Dec 1, 2012)

ptgoats45 said:


> For Erica, if you want to spend the money, I would blood test your goats for Se prior to giving them their BoSe, if they are low give them a shot then wait about a month or so and test again to see how the levels are. If they are still in the ok range I would wait until about the 6 month post BoSe shot, test again and see what their levels are if they are low at that time I would give another shot, then wait maybe 4 months and run a test. This would all be to have a better idea of how long the BoSe is lasting in their systems and how often you need to give it. If their levels are continually low I would be looking into a custom mineral mix with higher Se levels or at giving them the horse selenium supplement so you don't have to inject them all the time.
> 
> Personally, I give my bucks and does a shot of MuSe about 3-4 weeks pre breeding, then give the bucks a shot in the spring and the does each get a shot about 3-4 weeks pre kidding. None of my kids ever show a selenium deficiency and I actually do live in an area that is ok on selenium levels but because most of what my goats eat is not grown here in my area I do supplement them. Every one gets copper bolused twice a year which happens in January and in July.


I have been wanting to get my goats blood-tested to see how much selenium they retain in their systems so I can get an idea on when to give them another shot. Where can you get the blood tested


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I asked my vet about it one time and they said they could send in the blood to a lab to have it tested. Can't remember what lab, but your vet should be able to find out for you.


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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

janeen128 said:


> I don't have a boluser either, but if you do get a copper bolus, you can put it in a PB&J sandwich and down the hatch it goes I had to do that with my bratty girls, they are big too..


Miracle doesn't like Pb and J or anything sweet for that matter. She does like pretzels, french fries, or anything else that is salty. If you can't tell, she's picky.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

caprine crazy said:


> Miracle doesn't like Pb and J or anything sweet for that matter. She does like pretzels, french fries, or anything else that is salty. If you can't tell, she's picky.


Kayla I am willing to sell you some to dose her  you could always put the capsule in a soft pretzel thick cut French Fry or something of sorts.. PM me


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## LamanchaAcres (Jan 11, 2013)

caprine crazy said:


> Miracle doesn't like Pb and J or anything sweet for that matter. She does like pretzels, french fries, or anything else that is salty. If you can't tell, she's picky.


We bought some from skyla and most of ours ate dried plums with the bolus in them. I just cut a little slit, put the bolus in and squeezed a little honey in the fruit. But if she doesnt like real sweet things maybe no honey??? Just a thought!


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