# Buck Proximatey



## ColleenMT (Dec 8, 2014)

Hi, there.
I have Nigerian Dwarf goat girls and one handsome boy. I purchased two yearling does and an older doe in milk from a very reputable breeder. The milk from Marjorie was the sweetest, most wonderful milk you could imagine. I shared it with everyone and was so proud she was mine. When the younger girls freshened, I begrudgingly dried Marjorie off. However, the milk from my new girls was bitter. I attributed it to copper deficiency and bolused for it, but with little to no improvement. When spring rolled around, I was so excited for Marj to kid, expecting the beautiful milk from before, but it was horrible. Bitter. Gross. I was heartbroken. My girls have always had the same feed with no access to outside weeds. They have all their regular vaccinations, wormings and boluses. All I can think of is it might be their proximity to my buck.
My buck is a handsome young man who has a pen adjacent to my girls with about a foot space between their fences. They cannot touch and they cannot touch anything he has touched. They share a barn with one floor and a solid dividing wall. He has no contact at all with the girls. Both the girls and the boy poop and pee in their barns which I clean out entirely several times a year. Do you think that the pee from his side is leaching over, under the wall, and up through the bedding on the girls' side, causing the bitter milk??? Is there something I can put down on the floor and up the walls to eliminate this transfer? A different bedding or hygiene practice? I milk in an entirely different spot so he has no access to the milk. He is not a smelly buck at all, just softly musky. Your thoughts are appreciated in advance. :brickwall:


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What is everything that you are feeding? How often do you copper bolus? What mineral are you using?


----------



## ColleenMT (Dec 8, 2014)

I feed grass/alfalfa hay from the same field for the last 3 years, Payback goat mineral and Nutrena 17% Goat Feed. That's all they have ever gotten, with no changes.


----------



## GodsGarden (Feb 6, 2015)

So sorry, what a disappointment.

In my opinion, the problem is feed related not buck related. My buck is right next to my girls and no change with the milk. I would say the highest percentage of cause is something missing from the diet. The fact that they have eaten the same thing for 3 years highlights this for me.

I would give her Bs. Also offer Thorvin Kelp free choice.

In the long run I would re-look at my feeding regime. There are some wonderful threads on here that go over the best goat minerals and grain mixes along with how to mix your own. 

That being siad, I feed my goats completely natural. No soy, no GMO, no sugar, and no long words that I can't understand. They get alfalfa, hay, organic grains, kelp, and simple minerals. I know she is thought of as crazy but I follow Pat Colby's book on how to feed minerals. I have the tastiest milk. 

I hope Marjorie milk gets better.


----------



## grindylo (May 15, 2014)

GodsGarden, I was just curious what grains you feed your goats. Is it a pre-mixed blend or do you select what grains yourself? Pellets or? Also, what do you mean by "simple minerals?" Just some basic mix or do you make your own blend? 
Sorry for all the questions. I think one of my does is bred and am worried about having off-tasting milk as the first goat milk this family tries!


----------



## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

My buck pen is attached to the doe pen inside the barn. The buck pen is 4 feet from the milk stand. The milk I get from my girls is sweet and yummy.

There may be something in the hay or some missing mineral that is making the flavor yucky. Have you had your water tested? There may be bacteria or heavy minerals in it that is causing issues.

What do you use to clean milking supplies and milk storage containers? Soap residue may be causing problems. Sometimes milk stone can build up and add bacteria to the milk and you don't realize it. How about udder wash or dip? Residue from that may be causing a flavor problem.


----------



## GodsGarden (Feb 6, 2015)

grindylo, I mix my own grains. Parts: 1 Oats, 1 Barley, 2/3 Millo, 2/3 Wheat, and 1/2 Corn. The mix comes to about 10% protein. I was doing Sunflower as well but haven't been able to get any good Sunflower (feed store is working on it). RanchWay feeds has good organic grain.

By simple minerals I mean just straight minerals. No mixes or blocks. My goats have free choice to: Dolomite, Copper Sulfate, Sulfur, and Kelp. Each in separate bins (sometimes I mix the Kelp with the Dolomite, as a big reason my goats eat Kelp is for the calcium content and they forget about the Dolomite). Jolly German has good minerals, I get Dolomite from him. Thorvin Kelp is really good, I get that through our co-op. Copper Sulfate and Sulfur I get from Alpha Chemicals. My kids from this year are doing great supplementing this way. The older does didn't start out with minerals this way and are taking longer to get used to it. I have supplemented the does through their grain. Natural Goat Care by Pat Colby is a great book, I would advise it if you decide to feed your goats this way.
A full grown large Lamancha gets in her grain for maintenance: (smaller goats get less and I would never try giving over 1/2 t of Copper)
1 t Dolomite
1/8 t Copper 
1 t Sulfur
*Never feed Copper without Dolomite and never drench Copper. * 
A full grown large Lamancha that was mineral/Copper defiant I gave:
2.5 t Dolomite
1/2 t Copper
1 t Sulfur

I hope this helps.


----------



## grindylo (May 15, 2014)

Thanks! I see what you mean now and, yes, that helped a lot.


----------



## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

*



Never feed Copper without Dolomite and never drench Copper.

Click to expand...

*Would you explain your thoughts on these two statements please? And by "drench copper", do you mean copper boluses? Also, how did you come up with the amounts of each mineral?

Very interested.


----------



## GodsGarden (Feb 6, 2015)

Most of what I get is from Pat Colby’s book. That is why I advise it for reading. Some I have red online sadly I haven’t saved the websites.

In Natural Goat Care, Pat Colby says multiple times to never feed Copper without Dolomite and she never does herself. For oral Copper poisoning (which shows as an acute liver attack) she says to treat with oral Dolomite and vitamin C and with vitamin B15 injections.

Drenching is when you mix something with a liquid and squirt it down the goat’s throat. If you do this with Copper the goat can inhale it and die. The horror stories of poor goats dyeing from this are terrible. This does not refer to Copper boluses. 

I feel like I should say a little on Copper poisoning as well. It can happen. Be careful with anything you give your goats. Feed free choice is always best. The only reason I feed in the grain is because the older does were not supplementing and showed signs of deficiency. But the goal is to have them supplementing themselves in the future. Remember that the amount she gives is for a full sized dairy goat. Feed for a week and then give a week off. Never feed without Dolomite. Never force it down the goats throat, let the goat eat it.

Sorry for not being completely clear. It is hard to put all you have learned down in a few paragraphs.


----------



## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

Have you checked for mastitis? Bitter milk could be mastisis or a high SCC count. Add some ACV raw of course with the "mother" in the drinking water, and pick up a cobalt block for good measure. When my favorite milker had goaty tasting milk it was because my mineral feeder was empty and I didn't notice for awhile, it was icky but not bitter, tasted like a goat...Now I make darn sure they never run out of minerals and I keep the cobalt block available, and they do lick it, lots of lick holes in it and they eat a good amount of the minerals. No more goaty milk, all sweet and wonderful!


----------



## ColleenMT (Dec 8, 2014)

So, is it the consensus then that no one thinks the taste is because of my buck being so close? The feed thing is just confusing to me because it hasn't ever changed...


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Here's an article that states that 80% of the time off tasting milk is feed related and a B12 cobalt deficiency could cause it. A cobalt block may solve the problem. I wish I could remember where else I that I saw that, but if you search the threads here, you may find more info.

http://abernathycreekfarm.blogspot.com/2009/06/off-flavor-goats-milk_10.html


----------



## ColleenMT (Dec 8, 2014)

I will give cobalt a try then! Thanks!


----------



## ColleenMT (Dec 8, 2014)

This may be a silly question, but are B vitamins and cobalt linked? If so, how? Do I need to provide a cobalt block and B vitamin supplement?


----------



## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

ColleenMT said:


> So, is it the consensus then that no one thinks the taste is because of my buck being so close? The feed thing is just confusing to me because it hasn't ever changed...


I would say your buck definitely is influencing the flavor, but there may be other causes as well.

My bucks have to stay at least 50 feet (sometimes several hundred yards) away from the does to keep the wind from wafting their smell and tainting the milk.

Milk will easily absorb any odors in the area including buck, unclean barn, and manure.

The minerals will also help, but in my opinion, your buck is too close.


----------



## Rise_and_Shine_Ranch (May 16, 2015)

If you don't give cobalt to your goats, they can't process the B 12. In other words, the B12 just passes through the goat without the cobalt to catch it, per se.


----------



## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

Rise_and_Shine_Ranch said:


> If you don't give cobalt to your goats, they can't process the B 12. In other words, the B12 just passes through the goat without the cobalt to catch it, per se.


B12 is made out of cobalt in the goat's gut, so if they have enough cobalt their beneficial bacteria will manufacture B12 for the goats.

No need to give B12 except for an unwell goat because a healthy goat will synthesize it naturally in the gut from dietary Cobalt.


----------



## ColleenMT (Dec 8, 2014)

I feed Payback Goat mineral which has cobalt in it but I am also on a well...so maybe there is a link there too. We have started a project to completely line both sides of the barn with a waterproof shower pan liner to eliminate any transfer of urine back and forth. That, with fresh bedding weekly and a cobalt block...hopefully that will do it.


----------



## Tapestry (Feb 5, 2015)

Too many people have bucks that are penned in the same pen with their does and have no issue with milk for me to believe that is the problem. However, a very common reason for milk to be off is due to not cooling the milk fast enough after milking. Try making sure that your milk is placed in a cold water bath immediately after milking. I keep a container of ice water in the fridge and I milk into a mason jar. The jar goes into the ice water immediately and my milk stays sweet.


----------



## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

I can smell my buck in my milk barn, as his stink travels on the breeze in my open window, yes he is in the next pen. My milk is fine. I would bet it is feed/mineral related.


----------



## ColleenMT (Dec 8, 2014)

Thanks. I bring my stainless steel milk tote out inside of a bucket filled full of ice and water. I keep the milk tote in the freezer after I wash it. I milk into a stainless steel milking kettle that is also kept in the freezer when it's not being used. Everything is washed in super hot water with dawn dishsoap and then rinse in bleach water and air dried, whereupon it is returned to the freezer. After the milk is brought straight into the house and filtered into frozen mason jars, it is put in the freezer for 30 minutes and then moved to the fridge. Do you think that is acceptable milking practice for sweet milk? I, of course used udder wash and teat dip religiously.


----------



## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

I chill my milk in the freezer for at least an hour and a half, you don't want to risk not letting it get cold enough!


----------



## ColleenMT (Dec 8, 2014)

Much longer than a half hour and I have frozen milk...ugh.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You really shouldn't have to jump through hoops to have good tasting milk. I just bring out my bucket with no ice. I milk. I may even do a couple things in the barn after milking. Then I strain it and put it in the back of my refrigerator. My milk tastes great for up to 2 weeks.


----------



## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

I agree with ksalvagno, I milk and sometimes my milk stays in the jars until after I have fed everyone, gone in the house, probably have to wash my strainer as I didn't have time in the morning before work, let that dry, go out water some garden then go oh yeah, I need to filter the milk, so I filter it stick it in the fridge and still after all that my milk is the best, sweet and yummy, lasts two weeks, and this is with my stinky buck right next door to my barn, and just one fence from my girls, thank goodness for hot wire.


----------



## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

It's NOT the buck proximity...well, not unless you are letting your buck dip his beard into the milk bucket!! :roll:

We keep our goats all penned together, unless someone is about to come into heat. All the girls rub all over Splash, and he, them, constantly. Never had a bucky taste to the milk.

I also don't think it's what container you're milking into, nor the "not cooling the milk quick enough" opinion. 

I make soap, so I have tons of the 4 pound lard buckets. Those are what I milk into, have been using them for the better part of a year now. They are food grade, hold a little over a 1/2 gallon each, and I use one per goat per milking session. Never had an off taste from the buckets.

For cool down, I do have a small dorm sized fridge in the barn, but no freezer. So I milk into a plastic lard bucket, snap on the lid and set it into the little fridge. I repeat for each goat that is in milk. The milk rests there and begins cooling down while I finish morning feeding, cleaning and other chores. Then the milk goes into the house and gets poured through a filter into a clean 1/2 gallon mason jar and put into the main fridge to continue chilling. Again, my procedure has created no off taste in the milk.

The only nasty taste I've ever had in my milk was from the colostrum, I seem to be very sensitive to that taste and have to wait a full month after kidding before I can no longer taste it. 

Wait, I take that back...once the goaties found a patch of wild onion...ewwww, that was pretty bitter milk for a day or so.


----------



## ColleenMT (Dec 8, 2014)

I agree that this whole milking deal shouldn't be that hard... :ram:I have bolused my goats for copper last weekend, have put out a cobalt block, kept filling my mineral feeder, cleaned and limed the barn and will put down a waterproof barrier to keep everything super clean this weekend. My young goaties will kid next month so we will see how the milk is. I'm crossing my fingers and toes on this. I don't think my husband will be all that excited to have another milking season go bad... :hair:


----------



## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I am pretty slack when it comes to getting the fresh milk up to the house and into the fridge. It sometimes takes 15 to 20 minutes to get it into the fridge. The pail doesn't go up until it is full, so that can take several minutes also, on top of the other. The milk is always nice and sweet.

I milk into a stainless steel bucket. i don't wash the udder/teats nor do I dip any more. I just milk into the bucket.

When I do get it to the house, I strain the milk thru the round dairy filters that are placed in a plastic funnel. I use glass Mason jars. They are not cooled, just sitting in the sink strainer. Once the jar is full, then it goes into the fridge. 

I wash with dairy soap and warm water. 

I bolus my goats with cobalt, but this is something new for me. I have been milking for 35+ years with no off flavored milk, except, as was mentioned, if it still have colostrum in it. YUCK!


----------



## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

I had this same problem, got a goat in milk with just horrible tasting milk, even though the previous owner said it had been wonderful the last 7 years that they had had her. His wife had recently passed away though, and since she was the goat person, a number of goat care details had slipped through the cracks. 

Anyway, providing her with loose minerals fixed the milk almost immediately. Sweet and delicious. The only thing I can think for your situation, is, are the goats actually eating enough of the minerals? You could try a different mineral mix maybe... maybe they'll like it better and eat more of it.

With mine, I have to put out fresh minerals just about every day. If it sits out, they just won't eat it after a certain point, even if I stir it up to declump it (humid environment here).


----------



## ColleenMT (Dec 8, 2014)

Hmmm...maybe that is it, lilaalil. Maybe they aren't eating enough mineral. I have it in a self feeder in their barn. Maybe they aren't getting enough. Maybe I should put it on their grain everyday?


----------

