# Greetings I could say- but instead I'd like to start a discussion today



## Wildside (Apr 11, 2016)

Hello fellow Goat packers,

I'm not really a goat packer. Not yet anyway. But in the past I've attempted to train one. Failing because I made a couple mistakes. One: I bottle raised him. Two: I kept horns. And three: I kept him intact. (Was hoping to cut him later to maximize growth.) Guess what? He turned out to be a terror. Surprise surprise, am I right? ;-) But I loved that pain and the butt; all the more painful when I unfortunately had to sell him to a dairy because of his freakish hormonal issues and obsession with humans. 

My goal is to have a pack goat with horns but since I've had a bad experience with them, I'm worried. I have doe that does NOT have horns and bouncy babies with tude. (I love goats with attitude - as long as they aren't violent about it) They are doe's. Gonna have female pack goats from now on. My question: Can I have horned goats and trust them to be nice to their non-horned mother? They obviously won't be as hormonal, but I'm still concerned. Should I be?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I believe there are people who pack with horned goats.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

If you have horned and not horned goats together, it usually ends in the horned goats being extremely bossy to the others. I have heard of people doing it without a hitch though.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Are they going to be young goats? If the new ones are young and the ones you have now are adults then the adults should put them in their place first thing. Usually once goats figure out their pecking order they are done especially in a small herd. I did say usually there  I've had to sell some in the past for being nasty mean all the time and believe it or not that includes horns as well and no horned goats


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Lots of people pack goats with horns (most of them bottle raised actually). Among other things, horns help a working goat regulate its body temperature. I have a mixed herd of horns/no horns and it's working out very well. So far the only goat I've had to cull for attitude was a hornless one! 

That said, not everyone can do a mixed herd. So much depends on the individual animals and their personalities. I've found that my girls are a lot more brutal to each other than the boys are. My boys have horns and my girls do not, but the boys rarely beat up the girls and are better about sharing shelters and food than the girls are. I'm not sure what your experience will be having three does with horns and one without. The fact that she's their mother may keep her on top no matter what. It's also possible that a horned daughter will depose her but won't necessarily be vicious once the initial power struggle is over. It will be interesting to see what happens.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I wonder though why your first kid turned out so spoiled. I have done both and much prefer the temperment of my bottle kids. I usually castrate them at around 6 months to a year old. 
Much of this is personal opinion and experience. Damfino is still young and energetic, while I am old and wobbly :lol: To me, easy is big factor.

I am raising a new kid right now as my elderly boy passed away this spring. He is about 4 weeks old right now, pulled at birth and bottle fed alongside my new doeling kid that I bought. They are kept where they can mingle with my adult does and the 2 bucklings that are my bottle boys brothers. They have an area where they can get away from the adults when they want. This way they safely learn to be goats but, also learn to go away from the herd to explore on their own. As soon as their cocci prevention and tetanus vaccines are completed I will start taking them on small hikes and to the beach for training. I don't push them in any way, they are given the full 2 years to grow up before they really carry anything other than a dog pack with some sandwiches in it (started at a year old). Most of the young time is just spent sitting with them to scratch and pet every part of their body, lift their feet, brush them, etc.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> To me, easy is big factor.


Which is partly why I prefer dam raising! 

Wildside, I'm curious if your first goat was an "only goat". If so, it's quite possible that's what caused his attitude problems.


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## wyomingtrapper (Mar 27, 2014)

I've four with horns, one without. No doubt the de-horned one would've been a bit higher on the totem pole, had he kept his horns, but they work it out. I've one bottle raised, others were not. Handle them, reinforce them, and they will work with you. Some are naturally stand offish, but still can make good work goats. I've not tried it, but am pretty sure one could train a goat to change the oil in his truck with enough in-the-shell, salted, peanuts for behavioral reinforcement. 

One mistake people make with animals is that they tend to try to interact with them like people. Goats are physical animals. Assert who the herd leader is and discipline them when needed (there are a number of threads addressing spray bottles and pinning them down). I've a tall 8 year old Alpine with 14" horns. He responds well to my voice because he knows that I'll lift him up, toss him down on his side and pin him, if he misbehaves at all. He respects my position in the herd and I respect his need to be distant and in control in all other situations. I don't force attention on him until he approaches me for it. You are the boss. They work for you. When they know where they stand, AND you treat them well, they behave accordingly.


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