# Is it too late for Penn G??



## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

First - just so thankful for this safe place to come and ask questions and share info, without being scolded or put down etc. there's a lotta goat love flowing through these pages -- and a good dose of human love too❤ 

I have a doe that kidded last March 2017
She is 4 years old, 4th freshening, Nigerian.
She had a long pre-hard labor ( about 12 hours)

Hard Labor started and she was tired already. She was making no progress in pushing - and pushes weren't all that forceful either. No bubble had appeared at all. No water broken.
After 45 min I gloved, sanitized, lubed up and went looking.

I found 1 big boy perfect presentation - who came out yowling and standing on his own - with a little pulling...

I went back in and found another buck perfect presentation again - pulled him very easily. 
He was weak in the legs and took some work ( and selinium gel after ) to get him going.
Both turned out fine.

The afterbirth came out right after I got the second boy cleaned up-- but hung on for hours with a 1/4" string going into her vulva.

I bumped her several times and felt confident there were no more kids.

I kick myself now - and wish I would have 
1. Gone looking inside again anyway - but with the afterbirth hanging - wasn't sure if I should??
2. Gone in with syringe of colloidal silver and emptied it inside.
Well that's all hind sight

So.. She acted very sluggish and was always laying on her kids etc. but no fever. I just figured she was sore from my intrusion.

.I had the vet out because I wanted to see about getting some Excede for her since I went in 2 times in a hurry and I wasn't all that careful in my panicked condition!

The vet said Biomycin was best and so I gave that instead.

Since then she still has some discharge between heats. When she goes into heat sometimes it is slighly pinkish. I have seen clear - and white also but just on the vulva part. 
Still no fever - not acting off since she's healed up.

I have been treating her herbally - and she'll get dry - then discharge starts again ( mid cycle).
Just recently I got some great advice from Kat at Fir Meadow... I usually depend on her products. 

But she advised uterine boluses and using a weak kid syringe to tube some Herbiotic extract into the uterus.

But I don't feel comfortable doing that - I'm afraid I'd damage her uterine wall- bladder - who knows??!

Also, though I love using herbal's only - the cost of that treatment would cost more than I have to spare right now!

So.... Is it too late to use the brand new cheap Penn G that I found at TSC for under 10.00?
I had read on some other posts on here - that that was the drug of choice for uterine infections.

I also saw a post where someone said that uterine infection doesn't have to have a fever also!

I'm assuming that is what it is - even though there is no temp - milk is fine- and the discharge doesn't smell all that bad--- hahaha well that comes from someone that enjoys the smell of cudding because it means everything is working!!

Discharge smells like Comet cleanser???

I want to get her ready for November breeding! Thank you for your help!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Hmm discharge smells like Comet? I would get that tested she might have some sort of infection going on unrelated to kidding but I've never experienced this before.
Others should chime in here soon.

eta Great job pulling those boys!


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

nancy d said:


> Hmm discharge smells like Comet? I would get that tested she might have some sort of infection going on unrelated to kidding but I've never experienced this before.
> Others should chime in here soon.
> 
> eta Great job pulling those boys!


Duh- just replied to an email - I'm not the fullest bag in the feed room!!

Thank you! I hope others add their advice too.

Comet might actually smell bad to some people

Thank you - pulling has got to be one of the scariest and rewarding events - when it turns out good!!


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

Annieday welcome to TGS. I have no experience with this so can't help but I am sure you will get some good recommendations. I agree you need to get a handle on it before rebreeding as I know you want a successful outcome. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

capracreek said:


> Annieday welcome to TGS. I have no experience with this so can't help but I am sure you will get some good recommendations. I agree you need to get a handle on it before rebreeding as I know you want a successful outcome. Good luck and keep us posted.


Thank You!


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Any chance you can check back in with your vet? Schedule a visit, or call and ask them if/how to bring a swab in to see if it is an infection? I would hate for you to treat something that isn't there, and still not have answers.

It may also just be you doe. I have one the has random discharge whenever. It is never much, but more than everyone else. She gets bred and kids just fine.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank you for answering... I don't have a really good vet that knows goats. The one that checked her at first doubted she had an infection - and said she didn't smell anything but regular lochia smell??

I wish I COULD take a swab in to a knowledgeable vet!! I gathered my own sample- dropped it off at the vets - and they called later to explain to me that it wasn't a urine sample. ( they obviously weren't listening)

I don't guess there is a way I could judge whether it's infection with my own microscope? I have one for doing fecals??

I totally agree - I never want to use antis unless I know it's needed! Besides we need the milk- I'd hate to have to toss it!!

Thank you for taking the time!

Can anyone confirm that you can have a uterine infection with no other symptoms besides discharge?



PippasCubby said:


> Any chance you can check back in with your vet? Schedule a visit, or call and ask them if/how to bring a swab in to see if it is an infection? I would hate for you to treat something that isn't there, and still not have answers.
> 
> It may also just be you doe. I have one the has random discharge whenever. It is never much, but more than everyone else. She gets bred and kids just fine.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

This may be what is happening, please read.

UTERINE INFECTION (Metritis): 
Occasionally a doe, if she does not conceive when initially bred, will return to a standing heat a short 7 to 14 days later, instead of waiting for the usual 21 days. Bred again by the owner, the story repeats itself. This is known as 'short-cycling', and it is an indication of a uterine infection (aka 'metritis'). This infection within the uterus will prevent a conception from taking place. Generally the problem is the result of the owner having had to assist at the previous freshening, in so doing accidentally introducing pathogenic bacteria into the womb. In the two or three weeks immediately following the assisted freshening the owner may overlook a 'pinkish' (as opposed to a dark reddish) tinge in the lochia (post-partum discharge), indicating that a uterine infection has set in. After that, however, commonly no further signs will be observed&#8230; No temp, no abnormal discharge, milk production is normal&#8230; This is because, unlike other mammals such as dogs, horses, et al, the goat has an amazing way of containing the infection within the walls of the uterus itself. 
Because of this potential for post-partum uterine infection during an assisted birthing, I always, immediately at its conclusion, prepare about 7cc of Oxytetracycline LA200, diluted with about 25cc of saline or sterile water, in a 35cc syringe, and infuse that right into the uterine cavity while the cervix is still wide open and accessible. This flushing with diluted oxytetracycline (diluted to prevent irritation of the uterine tissue) prevents any possibility of pathogenic bacteria getting a foothold in the vulnerable uterus, which, if allowed to happen, will result in the doe being unable to become pregnant when she is bred the following breeding season unless or until the infection caused by those bacteria is cleared up. Oxytetracycline, an antibiotic that is accessible and inexpensive, is very effective in treating uterine infections in goats, and it is preferred over penicillin, which is also accessible and inexpensive, but does not have a good track record in this situation. 
I have learned the hard way that this immediate, preventative uterine care following an assisted delivery is the wisest approach. Although it is not impossible to clear up a uterine infection in the Fall, when the doe lets you know by short-cycling that there's a problem, it is very difficult to do so. You see, during the breeding season she can only be treated when she is at the peak of her standing heat, when the cervix is fully dilated (wide open), to facilitate the entry of semen. And either you, yourself, must be experienced in doing A-I, or you will need to find someone else that is experienced with this process, as well as available (possibly at midnight), to do it for you, because in addition to the likelihood that said peak might actually take place in the middle of the night, the procedure used for flushing an infected uterus with oxytetracycline is the same as for doing an artificial insemination, with the only difference being that instead of infusing a straw full of semen through the doe's cervix and into the uterus, you will be infusing a 35cc syringe full of diluted LA200 in there. You should be aware that if you permit someone who is not experienced in the A-I process to attempt this procedure on your doe, you risk losing her to your breeding program permanently.

This is the link to it.
http://goats.wikifoundry.com/page/Breeding+Problems:+Why+does+don't+'settle'


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> This may be what is happening, please read.
> 
> UTERINE INFECTION (Metritis):
> Occasionally a doe, if she does not conceive when initially bred, will return to a standing heat a short 7 to 14 days later, instead of waiting for the usual 21 days. Bred again by the owner, the story repeats itself. This is known as 'short-cycling', and it is an indication of a uterine infection (aka 'metritis'). This infection within the uterus will prevent a conception from taking place. Generally the problem is the result of the owner having had to assist at the previous freshening, in so doing accidentally introducing pathogenic bacteria into the womb. In the two or three weeks immediately following the assisted freshening the owner may overlook a 'pinkish' (as opposed to a dark reddish) tinge in the lochia (post-partum discharge), indicating that a uterine infection has set in. After that, however, commonly no further signs will be observed&#8230; No temp, no abnormal discharge, milk production is normal&#8230; This is because, unlike other mammals such as dogs, horses, et al, the goat has an amazing way of containing the infection within the walls of the uterus itself.
> ...


Thank You I've read that article many times before...that's why I'm not comfortable doing the flush - don't know anyone who does AI and I don't trust local vets.

I wish I would have done the immediate syringing after she kidded - but sigh

Is it ever too late for Penn G?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Not sure. 

The only thing you can do is, work with a vet and see what they think, I hate to say. 

But do know, when goats come into heat, they have a a clear discharge, then when they go out, it is white.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Update and another question! My doe stayed dry for a good while after I wrote - everything looked fine. So she came into heat - which looked normal too - so I bred her.

2 days later she had a pinkish discharge and wasn't acting as perky.

Today she is off feed, still cudding, no temp. But she is also laying down a lot and occasionally grinds her teeth and acts like she's pushing!! She has a tiny bit of discharge - but I have found some crusty red on her back end this morning

The article that Toth Boer Goats posted said that infection *prevents conception*- so she couldn't be aborting could she? She has never acted like she was in pain or gone off feed before. Why would being bred start something new?

I actually found a vet that will know what to do with a swab! But I can't take it to them until Tues. should I start her on the PennG 2x a day 1cc per 20lbs for 5-7 days as was suggested- starting today- before I get results?

Does the buck always have to be treated too - if the results show infection? He only mounted her 2xs! Ugh! I know, I should have waited.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

A bloody abortion can't happen just two days after breeding. I had to abort a couple of our does six weeks after accidental breedings and saw no blood--just some heavier discharge. If you're seeing blood, then I'm pretty sure she still has that uterine infection lurking and it will have to be cleared up before she can breed successfully. I don't know if Pen G will work at this late juncture but it won't hurt to try. If it works, great! If not, you'll probably have to do a uterine flush or bolus. 

If you end up having to do the uterine bolus, you'll want to talk to a vet that is familiar with AI. Probably the best way to do this successfully would be to give the doe Lutalyse to bring her into season and open the cervix. If you use Lute, you'll basically be timing her heat cycle so you have the best chance of bolusing or flushing her while she's open. I wish you all the luck!


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I would really wait until you have results from the vet. It is only a couple more days wait, and then you know what you are dealing with. Your vet may help you find a more appropriate antibiotic as well.

Good luck. Let us know what the vet says. I hope you get it figured out!


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank you Damfino for your thoughtful answer. Thats great info I didn’t know- so there is no way she could have conceived if she’s still infected? That would be great. ( I mean that she didnt abort!)

So if i do that pen G - how will I be absolutely sure the infection is gone? Today she is completely dry- no discharge?

Could it be another infection - like bladder or uninary tract? Shes peeing ok - good stream- but sqats a little different than normal.

But i doubt if the vet will be


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

That was a post yesterday that i forgot to post!

You might be right— we had decided to do the Pen G starting this morning - and everything went wrong! ( I hate doing SQ injections anyway) 

Got my injection ready - made my little “tent” and tried 3 times to get the needle in - and it wouldn’t go in! 

I went back to the house threw that one away - got a thinner needle - but it was impossible to pull the plunger out to fill the syringe- Maybe needle too small? Anyway - gave up and decided to wait

In researching how to do the Pen G shot we found sooooo many different views- some said always SQ some said alwats IM ( including the label)

Some said 1ml per 100 lbs to 1ml to 10 lbs!!

Obviously we haven’t given many shots in 5 years!

But I sure prefer IM - but not as much fun for the goat!

What is the correct way and dosage?

I will definitely update when we get info from the vet!
Thank You!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

18 gauge needle works. It is tight on the syringe.
Or you have a lock syringe type. 
Make sure it is new and sharp. 

Pen G is given, 2 x a day, 1cc per 20 lbs SQ, be sure to pull back on the syringe before injecting to check for blood. If you see blood, remove and try another spot. 

I would wait for test results.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank You - the first one was 18 gauge - just didn’t push hard enough I guess

The second one was 22- so pen was too thick to draw? 

Yes - I sweat till I pull back!

I’m not doing bad when you consider i fainted when I got my ears pierced!

Thank you for adding your advice - and dosage info -more confirmation to wait. She’s doing better today -


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good to hear. ​


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Update- the vet tested the swab - he said there was bacteria - and elevated white blood cell count, but not abnormal for a doe just coming out of heat ( which she was)

He won’t tell me anything more to do without seeing my Doe ( Ginnie) 

She is still off Feed- but eating forage/hay/chaffehay. 
She’s peeing - but still an effort.
No temp still.
But back is still hunched ( tail slanted) like she’s in labor

Since the vet won’t give me any recommendations over the phone - should I just start the Pen G? 

I can’t leave Home right now to take her in. Besides taking care of my Mom at home with cancer- I have a doe showing all signs of being on time with her due date!!

I know I am dragging my feet over the injection. I don’t want to start and not be able to do it! I’m such a whimp

I have been able to give her a dose of banamine every other day - which makes her act almost normal- but then the needle I’m using must be a 30 gauge! ( about as thin as a hair!) easy!

I know some of ya’ll are given to praying for things- I would appreciate any!! My hubby is doing an overnight route and won’t be here to help if I start Pen G.

Oh- and my other question was - I want to give her a boost with some b complex - I found the dosage - but haven’t found what size needle to use ! I sure hope it’s 22- that’s all I have besides the dreaded 18 guage!!


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Just found I have - 5 - 20 gauge needles! Will that work with Pen G?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You need to know the bacteria she has in order to treat her properly.
I hate to say this but, the vet needs to see her for her to get proper treatment.

Not eating isn't good. 

If you continue the banamine, she can get gut issues like ulcers, which are hard to remedy.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Yeah I sure don’t like giving it- I’ve done 3 times in 1 week so far. It’s amazing stuff but I know not all good.

I’m confused as usual  - it seems as if it’s common on forums to self-diagnose - like assume it’s a uterine infection because of symptoms like discharge etc... and then other people chime in and say - Pen G 5-7 days etc... I’ve never heard anyone saying you have to know what kind of bacteria it is first.

I’m not disagreeing! I know you have much more experience than me- I just am confused ( easily!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Each bacteria has an antibiotic that will treat and kill that specific one. All antibiotics will kill some weak bacteria (germs), but the wrong antibiotic will let the stronger ones live. The more often you give the wrong antibiotic, the stronger the germs get because they have been exposed and over came that medication. Eventually, nothing will work for any bacterial infection because the bacteria are too strong. (flesh eating bacteria is one). 

That is why sometimes, a vet does have to be consulted. 

(I wish there was a chart to help figure out which antibiotic to use.)


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

That’s another reason I didn’t want to go ahead with Pen G... as soon as these babies are born - ( hopefully tonight) 
I will be more able to get her to the vet.

I’m Still curious why on this and other forums - I’ve heard advice to use pen G or another antibiotic- without any mention of what bacteria is involved. 
Thank you!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I agree that you should take her to the vet and I'm sorry if I caused any confusion by suggesting you try the Pen G. I was thinking that if it was too difficult to get her to a vet or get the infection tested that it would be better to give Pen G than to do nothing. Pen G is what my vet recommends to treat or prevent uterine infection shortly after giving birth. I don't know if Pen G would work now that it's been so long. A long-standing infection is usually more difficult to clear up than one that has just started and may need a stronger more bacteria-specific antibiotic. The fact that your doe is off her feed means her condition is worsening and needs treatment ASAP.

If you do end up using Pen G, I strongly recommend using 18 g needles. Anything smaller is hard on you and the goat because the plunger won't go down easily which make the injection take longer. It also means you may blow the needles off and have to start over, which isn't pleasant for anyone. I believe Vitamin B complex can be given with a 22 g needle but I usually prefer to use 20 g so I can get it over with faster. It's a lot of liquid and it stings, so I like to get the injection done quickly.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Everyone said it like I would, very well put.
I am sorry it is confusing, but if she isn't responding to PenG, you need to get a vet involved.
If she stinks back there, a kid could be dead internal releasing toxins.

Also, if she is getting close to kidding, Check her ketone levels. If low, give her some molasses and karo warm eater drench. Does she have swollen ankles? Pregnancy toxemia comes to mind if she has this swelling going on. If so, get her Calcium.

Not eating is not good.

What is her temp?

Is she getting up and walking around?


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank you for the reasoning on the needle! I'm convinced! That makes sense.

I never started her on pen G since the consensus was to wait... Then had to wait for another doe to kid -which she did at 2:30 am this morning.

She's not pregnant - kidded in March - was doing fine. 2 days after in with a buck- she starts the discharge again - but this time showing signs of pain and off feed.

Yes, she goes out with the girls in the pasture when they do. She is eating all that plus peanut hay and Chaffehay. Just no pellets or grain. So I know she's eating like something is going on.

Highest temp has been 103.8 - mid day - but we are in FL and she doesn't take heat well.... Though she is a Nigerian- hmm.

The good vet won't be in the office again until Fri. So I'll get more info when I take her in. Thank you for all of the help!

Note - for anyone who has any ideas- I'll be asking the vet also, why did being bred stir up an infection that appeared to have cleared up? She never looked better before being bred?? Could he have irritated an injury caused by the kid pulling? Could hormones have kicked in - I don't know how long after the follicle bursts does it turn into the corpus Luteum - and sends out Progesterone?) I think that's it??) it's a mystery!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Could be anything, as you suggested.
Hope the vet can find out the cause and give her proper treatment. 

Could also be the buck introduced bacteria he picked up somewhere or he had dirt or debris collected on his you know what.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Update on my doe Ginnie...and help making a very tough decision

A new mobile vet came out since I didn’t want to stress her with a long drive.

This vet is awesome - actually has goats. She did a one finger vaginal exam and felt something hard just inside the cervix- I felt it too- we both agreed it must be a kid from the last kidding.

So her recommendation was either C-section which she gave her a 50/50 chance of making it through - or putting her down.

It’s breaking my heart because she has such a will to live and is the sweetest doe ever.

I think this vet is very good and is being honest - but I wanted to hear if any of you had this happen - I thought I had heard of dead kids being cut out and taken out vaginally - but that’s probably only during kidding?

This explains why she went downhill after the breeding 2 weeks ago. It must have stirred up something?

Also, it sure could explain the slow labor progress. I’ve learned a hard lesson- any time there is slow labor - there could be a dead kid involved
I should have gone back in and checked. Hindsight is 20/20.

Thanks ya’ll


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Is there any way to get an ultrasound or x-ray to just make absolutely sure before cutting her open? Of course, you also need to figure out how much money you're willing to spend to save Ginnie and get some cost estimates from the vet. You don't want to get in over your head on a 50/50 operation. I'm surprised the vet gives her such a low chance of recovery. I'm sorry it's come to this, but I'm glad you found a vet you like and trust.


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

Wow. I don't think I like that call at all. I would definitely get an ultrasound. Less expensive than a c-section. Then at least you will know for sure what you are up against. Worst case scenario is she continues to go down hill. Then you have a dead goat and no answers. Unless you are willing to do your own necropsy. End of day you have at best a pet goat. Not sure about breeding after a c-section.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Why can't your vet give lute for her cervix to open?


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

I asked her about doing Lute - but she said even giving that wouldn't open up her cervix enough to extract it. I wondered about that because I've heard of other people on here using it!

I am making a list of questions for her today - I was so shocked yesterday my mind went blank

Thank you for confirming that that is a question to re-ask!


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Any other questions I should ask? Thanks!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Ask about other hormones that might open her up better. Ask if breeding her would open up her better. Ask about an ultrasound.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank you- I bred her during the last heat- that’s when she started going downhill

I will definitely ask about the ultrasound- I can’t imagine not wanting to know for sure... oh well, my new awesome vet is young??

But ya’ll are giving me hope that there are options!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Ask about estrumate. It is like lute.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thanks! I'll add that to my list!

Here is Ginnie 2 weeks ago..,so strong and acting pretty healthy but carrying a dead kid- amazing.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Wow! Just got a text- my new awesome vet is coming by with her fiancé - (she liked our farm and wants to show him)
It definitely sounds like she is going to be a dream to work with! God has blessed!
Any more questions to ask?

Btw- for Farm call/vag exam/ 2 antibiotic shots- and a info - 75.00!! That is the starting price for most mobiles to come out! Phew!

I’ll keep you posted! Thank Yoi!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Your vet sounds amazing!! Hopefully Ginnie will be ok. Let us know how it goes.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with the others.

It doesn't make sense, how a vet can determine a C-section or putting the goat down without doing a ultrasound, to see what is inside there. It could be a tumor or something totally different. I have seen mummified kids and some can reabsorb, but yet it seems odd if it is big and still hard right at the door. 

If it is a kid and has been there for a very long time decaying, she would already be dead if it is indeed a big kid. I could be wrong, never say never with goats.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

I don’t think I’ve ever hugged my vet after a Farm call -
We have become instant friends! I never dreamed vets were human too...

So she came out on her day off and was going to have another look at Ginnie ( for free!) but funny thing.. that girl completely disappeared. She is never hard to find - but after the vet left - she Showed up! Hmmm brain works fine.

So the vet had talked it over with her partner in the office and he said he wouldn’t give up on her either! That they will do a ultra sound to see what’s going on- and go from there.

The vet is coming Fri to give her another shot of Excede. That stuff works very well- she seemed to feel better already from the shot yesterday!

So she said keep her comfortable with Banamine - which will also help with swelling and she’ll do another vaginal on Fri too.

She’s not as young as I thought (47) and has had a lot of cases where she had to do a fetalectomy ( I think that’s the way you spell it) on cows and goats.. so she is going by her experience of what she’s feeling to judge whether it’s hopeful or not.

Thank You all for helping me not give up too!
More to come!


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

I meant to ask Toth Boer - you mean a doe usually doesn’t live for long with a dead kid inside? It’s been over 8 months - so that’s good to know! 

You’re so right - very few concrete things about goats!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes, say a dead kid or one who was missed during labor is deep within and the doe was not showing labor signs, because of it, then closes. The kid begins to rot inside, and within 2 weeks or less, she will become very ill from toxins released. 
If no antibiotics or flushing her out takes place, she will not make it. 

If a kid is missed and dies within, it takes a lot of work to save her especially a big kid. If nothing is done she will not make it. So I am really wondering what that is the vet and you are feeling.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

I sure hope it’s not a kid - I feel so awful already knowing I might have missed something

I am anxious to have the ultra sound done - hopefully that will be conclusive enough ( without a 100.00 X-ray) 

But she said because so much time has gone by- her uterus might be so thick trying to “wall” this thing off in an effort to avoid a systemic problem!


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Question - just thinking this through and going over the birth...so I can learn for next time...

The afterbirth came out probably about 5 minutes after the last kid was out.

It was very long- but held on by a thick “cord” about 1/2”.

After a few hours - the afterbirth fell off - but left about a 6” piece hanging out.

I asked my neighbor with goats About it and she said it was ok- it would either fall out or go back inside. So at some point that day it did disappear.

So could that have been another sac with the dead kid? And she wasn’t pushing because it didn’t stimulate labor?

I do remember her laying down the next few days and giving little pushes.

But I didn’t think anything of it because I’ve had does that do that after kidding before - but are fine. 

Experience is a hard teacher. I will go back in next time


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That was possible. If you ever question anything, go in. You need to go in up to your elbow.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

I know now I didn’t go in that far - I mistakenly thought if the afterbirth came out she was done. Plus I was worrying about the kid that came out with weak legs - I was alone.

I’m glad that others are willing to share their knowledge! Just think - if we didn’t have this place to find answers! Too bad we learn lessons mostly when things go wrong - sigh.

I’ll post more tomorrow- Vet is coming at 5:30!


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Vet was here- gave second shot of Excede and did another vaginal check- this time she could feel some “give” in what ever was in there. So the combination of Banamine plus Excede must have gotten some swelling to go down. ( I’ve been giving Banamine every other day)

They ( there is another Dr. Back at the clinic.) decided that they would be able to tell more with x-ray - so we’ll do that Monday!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is good.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good to hear.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Sounds promising.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Not so good after all - the X-ray shows a fully formed kid- which looks like it’s in a breech position?

Ginnie did great- up and out grazing now.

I am waiting to hear back from the vet about possible options..

I’m sure hysterectomy will be an option along with putting her down. 

Amazing - she charged 56.00 for the whole thing today!

Who knows maybe with those prices I’ll be able to afford a hysterectomy after all? I have no idea what that entails!

If anyone has had experience with hysters on a goat - maybe there is a thread on here? I need all the info I can get!

Nothing is certain until it happens! She’s “ok” now and I’m totally enjoying her company

I’ll update as soon as I hear more

( I wrote this yesterday and forgot to post! Vet texted to say we’ll talk today)


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Is she doing ok? There really isn't much to say about a hysterectomy. It should go just fine.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

She is doing great - eating fine/up and around. 

Ok - that’s what I was wanting to know - I think I’ve only heard/read that the outcome for hysterectomies on goats wasn’t that great.

But, sad to say it will depend on price. 

I was thinking about starting a Go Fund Me campaign for Ginnie if it was a whole lot...

Maybe more like “Goat Fund Me”???


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Wow. That's quite an image. Thanks for sharing. At least you know what you're dealing with. I'm sorry you have to make this hard decision. I'm sure you'll do what's best.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Yeah- it was shocking and sad I keep going back in my mind to the birth ... and this time I go back in a pull a 3rd kid. Hard lesson.

Hopefully this thread will help others like me out there to end up with a better ending!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh my, that is a shock.

It is amazing how well she is during, considering.

Praying she will be OK, the kid will have to be removed. Hopefully it isn't too much.


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

Incredible that she could go 8 months with that kid in her. She is some hardy gal. I'm thinking she will pull thru if the c-section or hysterectomy is done.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, it is a miracle she is still with us.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

I agree - God has been Awesome

Still waiting to hear from
The vet!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Whatever decision you make, maybe the vet will work with you regarding monthly payments if the route you chose is more expensive than you can easily afford. 

So sorry you have to make any decision.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank You Goats Rock, I thought about that- I saw in the dentist office brochure now you can get Care Credit for vet bills! Yikes! 

But you are right- I will be asking about payments if it’s out of reach.


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

How are things?


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Well the vet and I finally got together ( she came by in her way home)

She says hysterectomy would be the only ( surgical) option.

C-section wouldn’t work because there are lessons connecting the “kid” to the uterus.

Same for any kind of Lute/hormone treatment - she would have contractions and could tear her uterus up.

Hysterectomy would require a big opening - lots of aftercare.

I really have to think about that - because I’m taking care of my Mom with stage 4 breast cancer with a large external fungating wound bandage changes etc.)

I’m not sure I could watch after both and do a good job

So, her other alternative was a wait and see approach. 

Ginnie was doing great 2 weeks before she was bred. 1st pic just before breeding) 

Her body must have walled the kid off very well for her to go into regular heats and stop the in between discharge.

After the 2 rounds of Exceed (sp?) she is back to looking almost normal - eating- grazing running etc. looking at her you’d never know what was going on inside her! Except she is still more slanted in the rear than normal
(Next pics were yesterday)

So another thing I had used that we think helped her to get better just before breeding - was something called Cycle Ease from Fir Meadows.

It has hormone balancing herbs in it that must have helped - so the vet said next week ( after the antibiotic has gone through her system) to put her back on Cycle Ease.

I need to go to my Moms so more later.... thank you for asking!


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

I think you are making the right choice. Family members should always come before animals. And...sometimes you hear stories about humans that have mummified fetuses that are discovered years later with no real problems...


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank You jschies, I appreciate you saying that. It’s a sad reality that time and money don’t flow from a fountain somewhere :/

The vet said she had just spayed a dog that had had several litters of puppies - when they went in they found a mummified baby from who knows how far back. It does happen. never heard of it happening to a human though!


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

I’ll update as we wait and see- I forgot - the vet said we can continue to do X-rays as needed so we can see if things are changing - so that sounds like a good plan too.

I thought I would list the lessons from this that I’ve gleaned from ya’ll and experience.

1. Herbs do work, but sometimes you need a vet!

2. Watch pre-labor if it takes a long time for real labor to start - be prepared for intervention.

3. If real hard labor isn’t producing any bubble or something after 20min - suspect: a dead or misplaced kid - go in!!

4. Even after the afterbirth comes out- if you’ve intervened - go back in - to the elbows!! Maybe less with a nigi?

5. If anything is dangling after the afterbirth has dropped off - and it was a hard kidding - suspect that belongs to another ( probably dead) kid.

6. If discharge continues between heats - even if it doesn’t smell - suspect infection - but do a vaginally check EARLY so that injected hormones can still work to remove a kid if necessary.

7. Never breed a doe who has been discharging for 7 months - just because she cleared up for a week!! Wait - be patient ( not like me!)

I think that’s it for now!
Huge thanks to all for prayers and being there!!❤

I’ll keep you posted!


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

One more thing....

I had always heard that Excede will not work for uterine infections - but it’s what the vet chose - and it seems to have made a huge difference. 

The other great thing is - it’s a 2 injection treatment usually - First one - then wait 3 days for the second one. 

And if you can find a vet to come to your house and give the shot for 20.00 great deal!
It is very thick and probably takes about 8-10 seconds to plunge the contents 
And she did it in the back leg.
Not something I would try!!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Best wishes for your Mom! (And the doe, too, of course). I'm so glad you have a good vet willing to work with you.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Prayers for your mom and doe. 

Do you have someone who may be able to help with the care of your doe, if she did get a hysterectomy. 
That may be an option if you know anyone you can trust.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank You both I seem to be in a goat owner’s wasteland...I don’t know anyone I would trust close-by. 

I’m also thinking of the pain and trauma she would have to go through. If she didn’t make it afterwords - chances are she wasn’t real happy before she went. At least now - and before the breeding - she was pretty happy ( as far as I can tell!!

Thank You!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I've heard of calcification of the fetus in humans. The lady lived into her 80s I believe.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Amazing!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Annieday said:


> Thank You both I seem to be in a goat owner's wasteland...I don't know anyone I would trust close-by.
> 
> I'm also thinking of the pain and trauma she would have to go through. If she didn't make it afterwords - chances are she wasn't real happy before she went. At least now - and before the breeding - she was pretty happy ( as far as I can tell!!
> 
> Thank You!


 You are welcome.

Yeah, it is up to you. 
Also I am wondering how much it would cost for the vets to care for her after the procedure long enough so she is out of danger and she is healed so you do not have to do much with her care. Just an idea. But yet, she is doing OK now, but it is really something that she is OK.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

I hadn’t thought of that - but I don’t know if it’s a big enough place— and silly me I probably wouldn’t trust the vet either!

It might sound silly, but I do believe that besides the herbs, vite C and the Grace of God, that Ginnie is holding out for my sake. Everyday I try to keep that will to live going with lots of cuddle time and attention.
She might think I abandoned her.

But thank you for the ideas! I’m glad Ya’ll are there!!


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

I have heard of mummified human fetuses. I don't envy your choice. As hard as it is, humans do come before animals. I have been in tight spots before and actually had to put a beloved pet down when it came down to treating her or feeding my children.

If your sweet doe is happy and can still enjoy cuddles, and has walled off a fetus that well to survive 8 months, I would do exactly what you are doing with a wait and see kind of plan. 

I don't think it's silly at all to think she's holding on to life for you. Science has just recently discovered what we animal lovers have know for eons: that animals have emotions and can love us back quite as well as we love them. They are not the same as people, but they are not mindless machines by any means.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank you!:rungoat: Ginnie ran today for the first time in weeks! She’s feeling ya’lls love too!! Hugs❤


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

That is great  Hopefully she continues to do well.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Several years ago I had an older Alpine doe who kidded when I was in the hospital with twins. By the time I got out she was 3 days post kidding, so cervix was closed. She raised her twins just fine, everything seemed fine. There was no signs of an infection or anything.

That fall she came in heat and was bred. Never came back in heat, belly grew, all signs of being pregnant. Her kidding date came and went. Vet said to wait. At day 161 she went in labor but couldn't pass the kids. Hauled her to the vet to assist. He pulled out 2 HUGE dead kids, about like you'd expect for 11 days extra growth. He then started pulling out the afterbirth. Once he got her cleaned out, he went back in and pulled out a fully developed, partially dissolved skeleton. It took him several trips in to get all the bones, but he "put it back together" on the floor so we knew there was nothing left. She had carried a dead kid inside her for over a year with no signs of any problems, even conceived and carried twins! The vet said while it certainly is not common, this does happen. He totally washed out her uterus and infused it with strong antibiotics. He said she would probably be fine to breed that fall. She cycled and was bred but I never got to see how she would do, she was murdered along with the rest of my herd that next spring when a neighborhood kid burned my barn, killing all my goats.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Annieday said:


> Thank you!:rungoat: Ginnie ran today for the first time in weeks! She's feeling ya'lls love too!! Hugs❤


 That is awesome news, YAY.  :7up:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

lottsagoats1 said:


> Several years ago I had an older Alpine doe who kidded when I was in the hospital with twins. By the time I got out she was 3 days post kidding, so cervix was closed. She raised her twins just fine, everything seemed fine. There was no signs of an infection or anything.
> 
> That fall she came in heat and was bred. Never came back in heat, belly grew, all signs of being pregnant. Her kidding date came and went. Vet said to wait. At day 161 she went in labor but couldn't pass the kids. Hauled her to the vet to assist. He pulled out 2 HUGE dead kids, about like you'd expect for 11 days extra growth. He then started pulling out the afterbirth. Once he got her cleaned out, he went back in and pulled out a fully developed, partially dissolved skeleton. It took him several trips in to get all the bones, but he "put it back together" on the floor so we knew there was nothing left. She had carried a dead kid inside her for over a year with no signs of any problems, even conceived and carried twins! The vet said while it certainly is not common, this does happen. He totally washed out her uterus and infused it with strong antibiotics. He said she would probably be fine to breed that fall. She cycled and was bred but I never got to see how she would do, she was murdered along with the rest of my herd that next spring when a neighborhood kid burned my barn, killing all my goats.


 Good to know.

I am so sorry she died, what a horrible thing to happen, after all she has been through, very devastating.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

What a sad ending! Yes what irony after all she endured! That must have been devastating!! I can’t imagjne the grief and loss.

It amazes me that the body still send hormones out for a heat when there is already something in the uterus. 

Thank You for the success story - aside from the human craziness that cut her life short


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Just a little update - Ginnie is back to “normal”! Rump still
A little more slanted - but otherwise - we’ll
Have another X-ray in a couple months...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She is a pretty doe, hope all goes well.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

She is my sweetest doe - her not being here would leave a huge hole 
Thanks!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad she is better.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Glad to hear she's feeling better.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

That is great she's doing well


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I know the feeling, I love all my goats and they do pull at our heart strings.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Annieday a sincere and heartfelt thank you for sharing this thread. I learned so much.

@lottsagoats1 Thank you also for your sharing. I knew about your tragedy, of course, but not that individual story. I would not have believed your doe could do that.

Thanks to both of you, I am a better goat owner.


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## Annieday (Jul 10, 2017)

Hey! I just stopped by with an update and saw your sweet message Mariarose- thank You- it has been very comforting to know I’m not alone. 

Ginnie is so normal it’s amazing! Except there is that bit of discharge now and then the vet says her body will continue to try to clean up. 

But she is getting nice and round again- no pain- no temp. I am thankful for that every day!! I just realized she’s almost 7! Time flies!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

So good to hear.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

That is great


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