# Poor Goats!!



## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I was searching craigslist for pygmy goats, and I found some. Add said they might be bred to a nubian!! :shocked: This person must know *nothing* about goats. They're asking $250 *each* I am wondering if I can talk them down to $75 per two.. Definantly not show quality but they are nice.. I want to save them, but We can't afford two or three $600 vet bills for a C-section!
I feel so bad for them!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Good golly bred to NUB?? Yikes!!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Oh no........


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Yeah, and the does are tiny  I wonder if it would be worth adopting them?
I just feel terrible! I really want to do something, but I really can't have any more c-section vet bills for awhile!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I don't know.....maybe at least ask her if she is aware the male was too big and ask about complications.....or could it be a "mini Nubian"???


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Hopefully all will be well if a vet is present to look out for them.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

sometimes all we can do is send up a prayer..we would all be in the poor house if we helped every goat we see who needs it..I know I would if I could


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I would call, but I think my mouth might get the best of me! I sent an e-mail... Is it possible the kids might just turn out small? I will attach some pics from the CL ad so you can see them. The buck isn't large, just tall. But the girls are pretty small. Two and four years old. They will really be some mini nubians!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I still think there could be some serious issues, especially if they only have one. Nigerian Dwarf and Pygmy babies range from 2-5 lbs, 5 being BIG. Full sized, I believe, usually arrive much larger than that.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Here they are.... Poor babies..


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Oh no ... they're tiny.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

ThreeHavens said:


> I still think there could be some serious issues, especially if they only have one. Nigerian Dwarf and Pygmy babies range from 2-5 lbs, 5 being BIG. Full sized, I believe, usually arrive much larger than that.


I know boers can get up to 9 lbs, but I would think nubians a little smaller? Still to big though


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Yes, they are tiny. Is there any possibilty that they just won't take because they are so small and the buck is so big? I think I am going to call them... At 2 in the morning...


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

No, they would still take. A vet will be needed, but hopefully with a C-section, mommas will be okay. I wouldn't call them at 2am, I think an email is enough. Sadly, they are not our goats.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Omygoodness....... That stinks! Poor things...............


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

How far along are they? Would giving them Lute be an option?


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

KymberLeAnn said:


> How far along are they? Would giving them Lute be an option?


They are not the posters goats...they are from a CL ad...


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I don't know.. I was thinking of lute, but one of the tan ones looks pretty pregnant to me!

Trust me, I would *NEVER* do this to a goat  It's just so maddening! It hurts my heart. Things like this makes me loose faith in humanity. *Sigh* Makes me want to cry  
Even if they do have a vet out for birth (though I dought they will) the does wouldn't be able to breed again.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Nubian can get 9-10 pounds as well...Our buck threw big kids..so sad for them...if they have multiples the possibility for smaller kids..


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Would it be worth getting them if I can get the price down? I really can't have any more $600 vet bills for a C-Section, been there done that in December. If I can deliver them at home, I would do it. I know I can go in and help, I have never done it before but I feel comfertable doing it. I have small hands too :laugh: Even if the kids don't make it, I want to save the does from an irresponsible owner. Because we all know they will do this again.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

NyGoatMom said:


> They are not the posters goats...they are from a CL ad...


I realize they aren't the posters goats,
What I meant was if she does decide to save them, that would probably be the safer option if it's not too late.
Or she possibly could suggest that to the person selling them.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I have no idea. It doesn't say. If they respond to my email, I will ask them...


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Would it be possible to deliver them with out a c-section?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

To be honest I would personally get them, but I'd talk the owner WAY down by explaining the problems he is going to face, probably ramp it up a bit eg. good possibility does and kids will die, needing C-sections etc etc. 

I would then bring them home and get a vet to check how far along, and I would lute them if not too far. 

I think its possible to deliver them without a c-section particularly if the does conceive multiples. It would be a hard pull. If they have due dates you could even induce once they hit say day 142. 

I noticed a few posts back you said even if they dont need a c-section they will never be able to be bred again. There's no reason to think that. Many does go on to breed normally after difficult births including c-sections. 

I do find that my nubian kids are smaller and more streamlined than my other dairy breed kids. 

That buck doesnt look very manly, are we sure he is the dad?


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## julieq (Feb 25, 2013)

I couldn't personally take them as we have a vet tested and clean herd, but I'd certainly contact them and let them know to get a vet in there PROMPTLY! I'd lute the entire lot and get the dang buck out of there, if they're not too far along. I would think that kids that size would possibly kill them before they even got to the point of kidding.

Regardless, you have a kind heart and thank you for caring!


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

keren said:


> To be honest I would personally get them, but I'd talk the owner WAY down by explaining the problems he is going to face, probably ramp it up a bit eg. good possibility does and kids will die, needing C-sections etc etc.
> 
> I would then bring them home and get a vet to check how far along, and I would lute them if not too far.
> 
> ...


Oh my God, I am so glad you said that.... My heart has just been aching for the poor does.. I was thinking $25 per goat or $100 for three. 
I will definantly be calling them and asking some questions. 
What are the chances they have multiples? I guess a 50% chance.. Hmm.. Its a gamble. What do you mean by a hard pull? Hard to pull them out? Fine with me.

I guess the reason I thought that was because our pygmy doe had to have a c-section. She couldn't get the kid out (it was HUGE and dead) we couldn't get it out, and the vet couldn't get it out. Had to do a c-section and cut the kid up to get it out. Poor thing had been pushing so hard she hard torn her uterus, and the vet said we shouldn't breed her again. The weird thing is, that night when we shut her in with the other goats, she had showed no signs of labor. Really no udder, no previous discharge, etc. Anyways, enough rambling.

I would *REALLY* like to buy a few of the does, but like I said, we really can't so c-sections on all two or three.. Gah, this is so hard!!  Stupid people.

On the add, it said (and I quote) "Pygmes females about 2 years probably pregnant by nubien.
Pygmes female about 4 years probably pregnant by nubien."


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I wouldn't buy them. Save your money for nicer quality does that aren't at risk. It's sad, but can't save them all.

Though it is a risk breeding large breed bucks to small breed does...I have seen more kid without issues than with. In fact just last month a breeder sold out her herd of nigerians to focus on her nubians and mini nubians. All the does sold were bred to nigerian bucks, well turns out the does were actually exposed to nubian bucks as well as nigerians and they've been having lots of mini nubians born to those nigerian does...hasn't been any kidding issues that i've heard yet. I also know of someone with a pygmy/nigerian cross doe who got bred to the neighbors boer buck...kidded without issues as well. There is always that risk that the kids will be too large to deliver, however, the doe's body generally should allow the kids to grow to a certain size for them to be able to be delivered without growing too large.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Julie:

I am 99% positive our herd is clean. I would stick them in the barn until all is well and I know they are clean.

Thank you for the compliments.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

KymberLeAnn said:


> I realize they aren't the posters goats,
> What I meant was if she does decide to save them, that would probably be the safer option if it's not too late.
> Or she possibly could suggest that to the person selling them.


Oh...sorry....thought you didn't see that!


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

KW Farms said:


> I wouldn't buy them. Save your money for nicer quality does that aren't at risk. It's sad, but can't save them all.
> 
> Though it is a risk breeding large breed bucks to small breed does...I have seen more kid without issues than with. In fact just last month a breeder sold out her herd of nigerians to focus on her nubians and mini nubians. All the does sold were bred to nigerian bucks, well turns out the does were actually exposed to nubian bucks as well as nigerians and they've been having lots of mini nubians born to those nigerian does...hasn't been any kidding issues that i've heard yet. I also know of someone with a pygmy/nigerian cross doe who got bred to the neighbors boer buck...kidded without issues as well. There is always that risk that the kids will be too large to deliver, however, the doe's body generally should allow the kids to grow to a certain size for them to be able to be delivered without growing too large.


Kylee you have a great point. I just feel too bad to at least no do _something_ 
I'm all about quality goats, but I have a soft spot for pygmies. Plus, we know a lot of people who are interested in them just for pets. I would just feel a little guilty knowing I could help them a little but I didn't. I don't know what I will do, but I need to do something.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

to be honest I reckon they look pretty healthy, and I guess I am a sucker for project goats. If I could get them cheap I'd take the risk. 

Hard pull = difficult to get out due to large kid small mum or malpresentations. Not a simple quick rearrange the kid and out it shoots, might take a fair bit of pulling, stretching, wiggling etc. 

If they were in good body condition at joining, chances are reasonable that they conceived multiples, which is gonna make it a bit easier at kidding since twins are usually smaller than singles. Then again, I've not had experience with pygmies and it seems like they tend to have singles reasonably often?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Scottyhorse: Well that is up to you.  To me...paying the "breeder" for them is not only encouraging that person, but also taking a gamble with the money you put into them. If they were free then that would be different, but purchasing them is a risk. If you really want to do something...you could write a well worded, helpful email letting them know about the dangers of breeding them to a nubian...etc. But that's just a suggestion...totally up to you!


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

keren said:


> to be honest I reckon they look pretty healthy, and I guess I am a sucker for project goats. If I could get them cheap I'd take the risk.
> 
> Hard pull = difficult to get out due to large kid small mum or malpresentations. Not a simple quick rearrange the kid and out it shoots, might take a fair bit of pulling, stretching, wiggling etc.
> 
> If they were in good body condition at joining, chances are reasonable that they conceived multiples, which is gonna make it a bit easier at kidding since twins are usually smaller than singles. Then again, I've not had experience with pygmies and it seems like they tend to have singles reasonably often?


So it's kind of like when they pull the cows out on tv? :laugh: I was thinking $25 a piece or free.

Our pygmy had 2 doelings on her second freshening. She had one as a FF. All she had was doelings!


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

KW Farms said:


> Scottyhorse: Well that is up to you.  To me...paying the "breeder" for them is not only encouraging that person, but also taking a gamble with the money you put into them. If they were free then that would be different, but purchasing them is a risk. If you really want to do something...you could write a well worded, helpful email letting them know about the dangers of breeding them to a nubian...etc. But that's just a suggestion...totally up to you!


That's a great idea. I will offer to take them cheap or free, and not the $250 they are offering. I am thinking they are getting rid of all their goats based on the ad.

I will definantly do that. Maybe I will just call them and say it over the phone, well, maybe not..


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Okay, sent them an email. Here is what I put:

Hey there, I came across your ad after searching for pygmy goats. I am interested, but a few things concern me. 
I don't know if you know this, but breeding such a large buck (your Nubian) to such small does (your Pygmies) is actually very dangerous. Many complications can occour. The kid(s) can be too large for the doe to deliver, and this can result in the death of the does and or kids. You will possibly need a C-Section. We breed Nigerian Dwarf and Pygmy goats. This December, our only Pygmy doe couldn't deliver her kid. We had to take her to the vet. Long story short, we ended up with a $600+ vet bill. Compared to other veteranary clinics, that was inexpensive. And we almost lost our doe. We can no longer breed her. It is very sad, but we are glad she is okay.

Another problem that can happen is that the doe can't keep up with nursing the kid(s) if the delivery goes smoothly. The pygmy goats simply can't produce enough milk. From your add, I see that you have multiple does that are pregnant. My concern is that the does will not be able to keep up with the kids' milk needs, and you will be stuck with a bunch of babies you will need to bottle feed. 
As I hope you can see, I am concerned about the goats will being and your sanity. 

Now, I have an offer to make. I am willing to take multiple pure Pygmy does (the ones between 2 and 4 years old). I am not willing to pay $250 for multiple reasons. Like the quality of the goats, vet bills, possible bottle feeding, etc. This is the only way you will be able to sell them, because I know people won't pay the full $250. I am very willing to negotiate and get it down to a proper price. 

But first, I've got a couple questions. Do you know how far along they are they in their pregnancy? Are they registered?

I really just want to help you and the goats out. Let me know what you think, and thanks so much, 

Sydney.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I think that sounds friendly and fair enough.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I am really excited what they have to say... I'm glad you think it is okay!


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

Sounds good to me!!!!


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Hopefully they won't get upset or offended


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

That's what I am worried about. Even if I can't get them for a lower price, I know I still helped them in a way. But I pray they agree with me!


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Scottyhorse said:


> I was searching craigslist for pygmy goats, and I found some. Add said they might be bred to a nubian!! :shocked: This person must know nothing about goats. They're asking $250 each I am wondering if I can talk them down to $75 per two.. Definantly not show quality but they are nice.. I want to save them, but We can't afford two or three $600 vet bills for a C-section!
> I feel so bad for them!


This actually happens more often than you think. The body of the doe does come into play for kid size too remember. I wouldn't go as far as saying that they know nothing about goats, that's just downright rude. Especially if that person has had goats forever. Gotta think all sides. Just my $0.02.

ETA: Also, I have seen does kid just fine carrying a full-size breed inside them. Kind of one of those cross the path when you get there. Especially when you buy into that issue.

Also, the email was nice enough. Good for you to explain your side thoroughly.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

You've got a good point. I was just mad when I read this. Maybe it wasn't on purpose, but a responsible goat owner wouldn't do this. If you wanted to cross the two breeds, you should have done it the other way around.. Anyways.

I haven't gotten an e-mail back yet.


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## fodderfeed (Feb 12, 2013)

Ah to sweet maybe the Humane Society could help.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Good idea, but they are not in poor condition. *sigh*


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

So nice of you to want to help these poor pygmies. This is exactly why I stay off of Craigslist. Too many people are looking to make money and the buyers that don't know any better only encourage this improper care.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

That's why I sent that e-mail saying why they shouldn't do it again. Hopefully I can get the for cheap and they learn their lesson.


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## julieq (Feb 25, 2013)

mjs500doo said:


> This actually happens more often than you think. The body of the doe does come into play for kid size too remember. I wouldn't go as far as saying that they know nothing about goats, that's just downright rude. Especially if that person has had goats forever. Gotta think all sides. Just my $0.02.
> 
> ETA: Also, I have seen does kid just fine carrying a full-size breed inside them. Kind of one of those cross the path when you get there. Especially when you buy into that issue.


We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I have a very experienced goat breeder friend who raised pygmies and they seem to end up having more C sections than any other goat breed I've heard about. And that's when they're bred to a pygmy buck. She finally got out of them and now raises Boers.

Back when we raised beef cattle, we chose bulls with genetics to throw small calves. Same principle, i.e. none of us want to risk putting a doe or a cow, or any other animal in a situation where they cannot properly give birth.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

That is a tough call. The breeder definitely doesn't know the dangers or doesn't care and should be told. If they listen that is good, if not, you tried. 
If you do not have the guts to say anything, get animal control to talk to them. It may open their eyes. 

There is huge risk for the Does, I feel really bad for them.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I would like to call, although my worry is that they won't do anything because they look to be in okay health. I am thinking most animal control people don't think like we do, but it is worth a shot.


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## LuvmyGoaties (Mar 9, 2010)

Have you seen pictures of the buck they were bred to? The reason I ask is bacause I have seen, more than once, on craigslist were people advertise "Nubians" for sale with pictures but the goat pictured was a ND - sometimes people who don't know goats mix them up. Maybe (hopefully) the buck was actually a Nigerian?


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Yeah, he is the tall white buck pictured. On the second page.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good luck.

Jen does have a good point there .


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

So far I have heard nothing back. If I don't in a few more days I may call them. Even if they don't want to sell for a lower price, I hope they take my suggestions into consideration.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

julieq said:


> We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I have a very experienced goat breeder friend who raised pygmies and they seem to end up having more C sections than any other goat breed I've heard about. And that's when they're bred to a pygmy buck. She finally got out of them and now raises Boers.
> 
> Back when we raised beef cattle, we chose bulls with genetics to throw small calves. Same principle, i.e. none of us want to risk putting a doe or a cow, or any other animal in a situation where they cannot properly give birth.


Really it depends on the body of the animal. I always use a calving ease bull on my first time heifers, regardless on how big she is. i calve in between 21-26 months, however you still have to think about how commonplace it is that some people just plain flat out don't care, dont know the risks, or pay mind. I also would have to point out that many first time animal owners do not think about the size of the female animal, nor do they tend to think about the male throwing a large baby. Not on purpose, but just out of lack of knowledge. This is where it is the more knowledgable people that must recommend gently that there are other ways to go about breeding and parturition. Therefore it's unfair to group all animal owners into the knowledgable or unknowledgable category. Even a knowledgable breeder/owner has made an accident (on purpose or not) at some point or another. Each animal is different.

Realistically it does happen more than any of us would like to think, and that's the flat out truth.


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## LittleGoatGal (Jan 9, 2013)

I would just contact the owner and tell her/him the possibilities of c-section ect and the dangers of natural birth and offer them a very low amount of money.. That goat in the pic doesn't really look like a buck.. it could be a nubian or they could have no idea what they're saying and think a nigerian is a nubian. Since they can't even spell Pygmy then you never know.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Yeah, that's true!


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## ogfabby (Jan 3, 2013)

I hate to say it but I doubt you hear back from them and I doubt even more that they will give you the goats or reduce the price that much. It sucks but it happens and at the end of the day, as long as they are providing food, water, and shelter, there is absolutely nothing that can be done.


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## Broski1984 (Jul 21, 2011)

Although they may not have issues, I'd watch out unless you're willing to deal with any problems - and I wouldn't pay a lot for them at all.

We've had one doe (a small, small fainting goat) who was bred to a boer buck (the people we bought her from didn't think they could breed for some reason) give birth without issues, but I imagine we were VERY lucky on that. The baby was almost as big as mom from day one.


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## Broski1984 (Jul 21, 2011)

Scottyhorse said:


> Would it be possible to deliver them with out a c-section?


They probably could. I believe that to some degree, the size of the kid is dictated by the mother - although the half-boer kid we had here was leggy and muscled quickly, she had a reasonably sized head and so on.

There will be a much higher chance of complications and I'd have a vet on hand in case something goes wrong, but you very well could be okay.

If they have multiples, and they very well may not (I've noticed when our does have big kids, they usually have only one; two of our kids this year were monsters, and were single-births to does who usually have twins), the kids should be smaller so it shouldn't be as horrible.

I also doubt any of them would die before birth. It'd be during that I'd worry.

My biggest doubt though, is that you'll hear back from them. Regardless of how bad someone messes up, people on craigslist tend to not respond unless you want to pay their outrageous prices. Horses are being given away and registered ones go for under $100 at auctions ALL the time in my area. Someone here was asking $500 each for two "registered" shetland mixes, unbroke, skinny and with hoof issues.

I asked if they'd go down and mentioned the price of good quality animals at auctions. I got the rudest response I've ever had, full of profanity and insults towards my mother; "if u wnt a cheep low callity animall go 2 the dam aucten!"

literacy levels were actually worse than that.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Wow. Some people. I still haven't heard back from them, don't think I ever will. I feel bad that I couldn't get any, but I am hoping they take at least a little of my advice to heart and either lower the price, or not to breed the pygmys to that buck again.


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## Broski1984 (Jul 21, 2011)

Scottyhorse said:


> Wow. Some people. I still haven't heard back from them, don't think I ever will. I feel bad that I couldn't get any, but I am hoping they take at least a little of my advice to heart and either lower the price, or not to breed the pygmys to that buck again.


Chances are, they won't; on the plus side, if they end up "stuck" with them, they'll probably sell them to pretty much anyone, and as most people like purebred goats, they likely won't get bred to something that big again.

They really should be okay giving birth this time - hopefully.

If you really want, you can try to call them, pretend you're someone else, and try to go out there to see them if they aren't far. You could maybe haggle them down to whatever the going rate for pygmy goats is in your area (in mine it's $50-100), and just take it.


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## DaisyMayFarm (Jan 19, 2013)

Broski1984 said:


> If you really want, you can try to call them, pretend you're someone else, and try to go out there to see them if they aren't far. You could maybe haggle them down to whatever the going rate for pygmy goats is in your area (in mine it's $50-100), and just take it.


Good idea


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