# California banning LA200 and PenG :(



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

California is banning LA200 and PenG off store shelves, Jan 2018.
It is really frustrating, how they further make it tough for the goat breeders and others.
So if you live in California, stock up a bit before year end.

You will have to get it RX After Jan 2018. Heads up. 

This is unnerving, today/tommorow mastitis treatment is on the ban list, what are we going to be able to use, if it comes up?
Here is the list:
https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/ahfss/AUS/docs/CA_MIAD_List.pdf

http://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=25663


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is a shame. Makes it hard if you have to call a vet for everything. Will put small breeders out of business but I'm guessing that is what they want.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Can you maybe have friends from out of state send it to you? Or, if you are not too far from a border, drive over the line and stock up?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is a devastating thing for sure, a bit scary, the what if's, what if my goat gets sick or has other issues, which I know how to treat but don't have product on hand? What if, the vets office isn't open. 

I can't just go out and get the meds, when I need them, which may be too late for a goat in need. 
Or it is, I have to pay a lot of money for an after hours vet call just so they can tell me what I already know. 

No, unfortunately do not live near any border and not sure if someone would help from across the border. 

I am stocking up now, but they only will last so long and expiration dates are an issue, some things won't last forever.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

I understand the intended purpose keeping antibiotics out of the food chain which can lead to more antibiotic resistant bacteria
However, as with most things the government does it will not accomplish what they want and will have unintended consequences
Small producers like us are not the problem its the big producers and they can get the vet to write the prescription or like most big hog producers in NC have vets on staff


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

Yeah, but you can buy pot now. Guess CA wants stoners not farmers.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yep Brown passed that almost 2 years ago and just now seems to really be hitting people. I am already stocked up and plan on taking a vacation to Nevada when things expire. 
I really can’t wait to see the consumers reaction in a few years when meat hikes up. As much as I really don’t trust vets here with my Goats it’s really not that hard to pack up a sick goat and throw in their SUV and take to the vet. A cow? Not so much and is almost cruel if you have to haul it to a vet.
Heck the way things are going out here ALL food hikes up. It’s not just the meat part that he is going after, he has added so many things to produce as well and even is trying to force dairy farmers to make their cows wear back packs to catch the cow farts!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Well that sucks.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

What California does, the rest of the country will follow. They do not want independent producing and thinking people.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm not sure about that last one, Kentucky will follow Texas in almost anything, but hates the very idea of following California.

I'm glad to help, guys, in any way I can.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

So ridiculous. I feel bad for the CA farmers and ranchers.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yep, it is our California governor who did this, not the government. This state has become very strange with new laws and is hurting the small farmers. 

I don't care for the pot law either. I guess they want to make people numb to reality. 

Everything is out of control. But we cannot talk politics on TGS spot, rules you know. 

It isn't fair.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I apologize if I was too political, I did not mean to be.

My offer to help with supply was sincere, because KY does not seem inclined in this direction. We don't have corporate farms to placate, so we might be safe for a while.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh, no problem at all, you did nothing wrong. 

It is that I didn't want it to become political, so I thought I'd mention it, which it can soon enough start when it comes to California, I know others states heard about what is going on here.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well half of the stupid problem is with labels on meat that say things like “no antibiotics added”........NO ONE ADDS ANTIBIOTICS TO MEAT! They seriously think we put a needle in their roast and inject antibiotics lol, also chocolate milk comes from brown cows (eye roll). I do not buy anything with that stupid label on it or any other stupid thing like that. I probably won’t make a difference but I won’t support it.
And actually big producers are not the issue. Thank about it. A person that runs 100-1,000 head of anything is not going to give antibiotics unless they totally need it. Giving a shot to everything that coughs once is not a way to make money but yet how many people that run a small amount and freak out over one that coughed and jump onto giving it a shot? That $1 a shot isn’t a lot for 1-2 or even 20 but when you have 100s that’s a bill that hurts. And I’m not just talking about people on here. Every summer here when things get dusty and usually Smokey too that is the most common thing I see or am asked about.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Jessica84 said:


> Well half of the stupid problem is with labels on meat that say things like "no antibiotics added"........NO ONE ADDS ANTIBIOTICS TO MEAT! They seriously think we put a needle in their roast and inject antibiotics lol, also chocolate milk comes from brown cows (eye roll). I do not buy anything with that stupid label on it or any other stupid thing like that. I probably won't make a difference but I won't support it.
> And actually big producers are not the issue. Thank about it. A person that runs 100-1,000 head of anything is not going to give antibiotics unless they totally need it. Giving a shot to everything that coughs once is not a way to make money but yet how many people that run a small amount and freak out over one that coughed and jump onto giving it a shot? That $1 a shot isn't a lot for 1-2 or even 20 but when you have 100s that's a bill that hurts. And I'm not just talking about people on here. Every summer here when things get dusty and usually Smokey too that is the most common thing I see or am asked about.


Commercial hog farms give a shot of penicillin to every baby pig when they have tails docked, tusks cut and males castrated when they are about a week old this I know from experience


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh I know, it doesn't make sense.









Besides before butchering there are withdrawal dates on the drugs and a butcher cannot process them for meat until they are clear. But some may not say anything and have them processed?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

It is the antibiotics in the feed and supplements that is the largest problem, in my opinion. They have to keep the cattle, poultry, and swine alive long enough in those awful living conditions and being feed that awful "food" to reach slaughter weight and size. Yes, it is the large producers that are the problem, and the people who refuse to pay real food prices. And also allow the corporations to write the laws and exempt themselves.

Kentucky has huge poultry farms for Tyson. There is so much chicanery going on, and the farmers keep getting poorer and poorer and they just can't figure out what is going wrong. Well, Tyson has rigged the system so that all the profit goes to the company and the shareholders and all the expense and risk goes to the farmers. And premature death and disease is one of those risks and the poultry is fed antibiotics with a little bit of food attached.

The labeling issue is spot on though. It is called "greenwashing" and some other "...washing" labels. Comes from "whitewashing", specifically the meaning of covering up something ugly or rotten with something cheap and bright.

Eat, Drink, be Merry...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yep.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

There is a withdrawal! And that’s why it gets my blood pressure sky high over this. I’m sure there are some people who, let’s say buy a goat and it gets sick they give it a shot and then decide to sell it not having a clue about withdrawal but that is the exception not the rule because no one wants to pay that fine! Not only that, my cattle ends up being butchered. I get more money for the ones that have never had a antibiotic shot before. There is no way I’m going to get less for a animal by giving it a shot of antibiotics for no reason. It averages out to $0.10 a pound more which doesn’t seem like a lot but it adds up fast and you do NOT lie about that. One person lied about his calfs being weaned and anything sporting his brand gets bottom price. 
I was pretty much in agreement with the antibiotics in the feed. I am pro antibiotic feed because it is so much better to treat a lot of cattle with feed instead of running them threw for shots every day but I fully understand why they did what they did.
I have no clue about pigs I just know in cattle that is not the way to go. I don’t know one person that gives a shot to anything unless it is dog sick


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I'd be willing to send you some if needed, although I'm sure Washington will follow soon... It's ridiculous..... this whole thing..... If they were truly concerned about what people ate etc....., what about all the GMO's in foods, literal poisons in some stuff...., and doing this to farmers..... Makes NO sense whatsoever...


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Ugh. I'm never moving to California. I'm worried about what states will follow their lead, though... 
They think they are solving problems, but they are just hurting good people instead.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thank you.

I know, it doesn't make sense at all. 
Hurting the farmer/rancher only takes from the mouths of the people and the health of their animals. If we or the big farmers cannot treat our animals when ill soon enough, they will die.
Are the big ranchers going to butcher animals who just freshly died or dying from infection and sell them to the public ect? Eww. 

More and more ranchers will have major loss, prices will go through the roof and there will be less meat.
Plus the animals suffer, if the rancher or we do not get a vet RX in time. Some vets are quite busy and some do not call back at all. Had that happen. Scary. 

I too don't mind them taking it away in feed either.
But what about the inhumane way of thinking, we cannot treat our sick animals. Animal control doesn't like when an animal is left untreated, by someone who doesn't care, but we do care and want to keep our animals alive when they do get sick. 

Just praying somehow this law can be overturned with a new Governor.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

They can’t butcher a sick animal. If it has cancer, even in a organ that can be tossed away they tank the whole animal. No fever, no sign of infection, nothing that shows signs of being sick in any way. BUT you are 100% right the consumers are going to be suffering as well. As it is right now there are a lot of people who don’t want meat from a animal that has never had antibiotics, ones that want want organic, produce that is not treated with pesticides, as mentioned no GMO and the list goes on. And that is great and awesome! And people have the right to want that. What about the consumers that don’t care (me), or the ones that have a tight budget? They will now have to pay more. I’m sorry but if I had $20 to feed my kids I wouldn’t care less about anything, starvation is a pretty real thing, so is not being able to pay bills. I don’t think a lot of people think about that. Everything that that is classified as something (organic, no pesticides blah blah) is more money for a reason. 
I can only speak for me but if I had a cow that was sick and I had to slowly walk that poor animal to the corral, right with her to get into a trailer, hauled her a hour away because I have NO VET to come to my house, pay the $100 just to walk threw the door and everything else that goes along with getting a shot, it would be more humane and money ahead to just put the animal down. On a good note we vaccinate and don’t really have too many issues, so it probably won’t break us having to put one down here and there but if something came threw here we would be screwed!


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

Yes, I'm definitely not looking forward to the hassle of this new regulation! I've been stocking up on what I can this year, but again, none of it will last forever. :/ I think I may have finally found a vet that I can work with though. None of the local vets are even willing to look at goats. However, I found a vet an hour and a half away who seems pretty reasonable. Looks like I'll have to build a relationship with the vet practice though, as I'll have to use them quite a bit in order to keep everything on hand for emergencies. Otherwise, I may be forced to utilize some out-of-state friends...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I hear ya and agree with you both.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You all might be interested in this article. 
https://modernfarmer.com/2014/06/abstinence-method/


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## BrokenArrowRanch (Jun 6, 2013)

Here's a list of things california will be banning. The kicker with this is the vet can't just come see you have animals, know you won't abuse the meds and sell you a bottle of stuff. They are supposed to come see every single animal every time it needs meds. Every bottle calf with scours or bvd, every cow with pinkeye, every doe with a hard birth. My vet charges 200 some odd dollars for a ranch call. That is BEFORE any treatment or meds. If I have to call him out for every pink eye case I will be bankrupt. $400 vet bill per cow isn't worth even having them. Rant over


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Hmm, nuflor and some other things on that list are already RX have been all along.

I hate this new law, it is going to be tough for a lot of breeders. Too expensive for sure.

The link above talks about feeding antibiotics to those animals everyday in their feed, it is not what goat breeders do. Then they changed it to no antibiotics, not sure if that is the same as what is happening here?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, it's exactly what's going on here. We're way behind the rest of the world in this. Which is why meat exports from the US are banned almost everywhere. 
Sure, it's going to be harder for a few years but in the long run the animals we end up with will be stronger, healthier, and have strong immune systems that work. 

People do feed goats antibiotics, they just don't think of it that way. Many people on this forum use feeds with coccidiostats to raise their kids.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, interesting. Thanks.


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

I remember reading that article a few years ago, and it's certainly a very interesting one. I definitely see the benefits of the changes, but I still don't look forward to how it will affect me. I don't use antibiotics or coccidiostats in my feed, so the VFD that went into effect this year didn't require me to make any changes in my program, but I always have Biomycin, Penicillin, TODAY, TOMORROW, Di-methox, and Liquid Spectoguard Scour-Check on hand for emergencies. All of these are on the list of RX only drugs. It's the TODAY and TOMORROW that concern me the most though.

Here's the link for the comprehensive list.
https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/ahfss/AUS/docs/CA_MIAD_List.pdf


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)




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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

^^^ I won't be signing that. 
I want to be able to export goat meat, to export goats without killing them, for Canada to reopen the border, and to quit creating disease that didn't exist even 30 years ago.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I don’t see how making just california have to have a vet to get a shot of la200 is going to make the difference in exporting meat. This is nothing to do with medicated feed and nothing to do with the federal law of medicated feed. This is all antibiotics just in California even antibiotics for eyes


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Lol, you haven't figured out yet that California is the experiment state? 
Actually most of those things on the Cali list have been off our shelves for over a year plus a lot of other things. 
To make it even more fun the veterinarians can't even get the meds they order. 
You all haven't even seen the new fair rules in some states yet and when the breed clubs jump in...


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Experiment or not, how is having to get a vet involved to get a shot, paying more for the shot, going to keep antibiotic resistance down? It’s still going to get the shot. Actually it’s probably worse! How many times on here have you seen where a vet has given antibiotics with the directions to give every other day or once a week or some other stupid thing. I’ve even had them do that! La200 every 5 days? Yeah that will fix this problem. The only thing it’s going to do is put farmers that are hardly making it out of business and at that point who cares if the other country’s will take our meat? We will have to import even more in to feed us. Last I checked we are importing more meat in then we are shipping out anyways


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I know how you feel Jessica, we are both living the nightmare. 

I have to totally agree with Jessica here, if you live in California you will know what we are going through with our governor. Has nothing to do with experiment or government. It is politics, which I cannot give any detail, becasue of TGS rules.

I was OK with the government law already in place. But California governor has taken this way too far IMO. 

Vets I talk to are so annoyed by the new law by the government, already in place, but with this new 2018 California law added. Vets were already over worked with farm calls to abide by the new regulations, now it is for basic antibiotics which adds more. It is hard enough to get a hold of the vet because they are super busy now, they have so much more on them. I have heard, some may quit because of this. Just not worth it to them. A bit unnerving. All vets have to go to a class 1 x a year for the 2018 California law or their license will not be renewed, another thing added. 

The OTC meds are still on shelves in our feed stores and online you mentioned. I don't know where you are finding it was pulled from shelves a year ago? They have been on shelves and still today, until Jan 2018, then they are pulled.

I also agree, it will not change giving meds, we will seek assistance to get antibiotics for our sick animals anyway. So we are still going to medicate. But unfortunately, we may lose some animals by not having the vet contact us back on time to get the meds our animals need.

We are goat breeders, not associates with big corporations selling to store chains, restaurants ect, and yet, we are being punished for what they have done, which is so unfair to the small time breeders.

I don't want to argue the point, not my intention at all, it is what we are living with, California law. 

I will check into the Petition Jessica. Thank you.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Wow, that is just awful! I am so very sorry you all are going to go through this  You'd think they would find a better way to do manage the necessary antibiotics! For example... why not have breeders/producers keep a log and document who they gave the med to, when it was administered & dosage and what possible illness or symptoms warranted the administration of that medication. Then when you need a new bottle, you have to turn in the log in order to obtain a new one. I know... wishful thinking, and I guess people could certainly cheat/lie, but something has to happen I can't imagine everyone being able to afford a vet!

Are there any animal hospitals around you? When we dealt with toxemia earlier this year, a vet was helping me over the phone as he was an hour away. Long story short he got me established with the equine hospital near me and any time I need medication all I have to do is go in and ask! I don't do it often, only in emergency situations, but now thanks to him and the hospital I can get what I need to a certain extent, as I don't think I can get Di-methox from them.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

HoosierShadow said:


> Wow, that is just awful! I am so very sorry you all are going to go through this  You'd think they would find a better way to do manage the necessary antibiotics! For example... why not have breeders/producers keep a log and document who they gave the med to, when it was administered & dosage and what possible illness or symptoms warranted the administration of that medication. Then when you need a new bottle, you have to turn in the log in order to obtain a new one. I know... wishful thinking, and I guess people could certainly cheat/lie, but something has to happen I can't imagine everyone being able to afford a vet!
> 
> Are there any animal hospitals around you? When we dealt with toxemia earlier this year, a vet was helping me over the phone as he was an hour away. Long story short he got me established with the equine hospital near me and any time I need medication all I have to do is go in and ask! I don't do it often, only in emergency situations, but now thanks to him and the hospital I can get what I need to a certain extent, as I don't think I can get Di-methox from them.


I think no oral/ feed medication is going to make a huge difference honestly. It's not as handy to give a shot as It is throwing something in a feed or water trough. But even then ok they want to do something more strict, you had a very good idea, or raise the price or tax it (as much as I hate taxes!) make it so it hurts a little to give the shot to a goat because you put one finger in her during kidding or as mentioned before you castrated a pig or something has a little snot in their nose. Don't get me wrong I would probably still moan around if they did that but at least it won't break a person to treat a sick animal or weigh their options if it's even worth keeping it alive. I am not one to give shots left and right and I cull over healthy issues and am a firm believer in vaccinating so in all honesty I have faith in my animals. But I don't want to not be able to save a animal if I need to.
For the vet thing that's part of the issue too. From my understanding it doesn't matter if you have a relationship with one, by law now, they would have to come out and see your animal or take to the vet before that animal(s) get anything. I try not to get tunnel vision and only think about my point of things but I just don't see how this is the best option, I honestly don't


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm going to bow out now, although I will point out I was talking about Oregon with the unavailability of medicine. 
We should continue this discussion in a few years when all Americans have little to no access to antibiotics or other off label medicine. 
I will leave you with this...
One world, one health, one medicine actually started in 2006 and was severely ramped up in 2015.

1. Recognizing the link between human, domestic animal, and wildlife health, and the threat 
disease poses to people, their food supplies and economies, and the biodiversity essential to 
maintaining the healthy environments and functioning ecosystems we all require.
2. Recognizing that decisions regarding land and water use have real implications for health. 
Alterations in the resilience of ecosystems and shifts in patterns of disease emergence and 
spread manifest themselves when we fail to recognize this relationship.
3. Including wildlife health science as an essential component of global disease prevention, 
surveillance, monitoring, control, and mitigation.
4. Recognizing that human health programs can greatly contribute to conservation efforts.
5. Devising adaptive, holistic, and forward-looking approaches to the prevention, surveillance, 
monitoring, control, and mitigation of emerging and resurging diseases that fully account for the 
complex interconnections among species. 
6. Seeking opportunities to fully integrate biodiversity conservation perspectives and human needs 
(including those related to domestic animal health) when developing solutions to infectious 
disease threats.
7. Reducing demand for and better regulating the international live wildlife and bushmeat trade, 
not only to protect wildlife populations but to lessen the risks of disease movement, cross-
species transmission, and the development of novel pathogen-host relationships. The costs of 
this worldwide trade in terms of impacts on public health, agriculture, and conservation are 
enormous, and the global community must address this trade as the real threat it is to global 
socioeconomic security.
8. Restricting the mass culling of free-ranging wildlife species for disease control to situations 
where there is a multidisciplinary, international scientific consensus that a wildlife population poses an urgent, significant threat to human health, food security, or wildlife health more 
broadly.
9. Increasing investment in the global human and animal health infrastructure commensurate with 
the serious nature of emerging and resurging disease threats to people, domestic animals and 
wildlife. Enhanced capacity for global human and animal health surveillance and for clear, timely 
information-sharing (that takes language barriers into account) can only help improve 
coordination of responses among governmental and nongovernmental agencies, public and 
animal health institutions, vaccine / pharmaceutical manufacturers, and other stakeholders.
10. Forming collaborative relationships among governments, local people, and the private and 
public (i.e. non-profit) sectors to meet the challenges of global health and biodiversity 
conservation.
11. Providing adequate resources and support for global wildlife health surveillance networks that 
exchange disease information with the public health and agricultural animal health communities 
as part of early warning systems for the emergence and resurgence of disease threats.
12. Investing in educating and raising awareness among the world’s people and in influencing the 
policy process to increase recognition that we must better understand the relationships 
between health and ecosystem integrity to succeed in improving prospects for a healthier 
planet.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

goathiker said:


> You all might be interested in this article.
> https://modernfarmer.com/2014/06/abstinence-method/


Interesting article goathiker. Big farms abusing antibiotics is a problem, and I could see how using them is the "easy way out" when raising a lot of animals in confined conditions in a stressful environment. For those of you who didn't get chance to read it, the article pointed out that many of the antibiotic resistant bacteria like MRSA actually started in livestock and then jumped hosts to humans because of the close contact we humans share with the livestock carrying these dangerous versions of bacteria.

However, this rule will still affect the goat owner at a hobbyist level or small breeder level because most of us don't practice antibiotic abuse like the big CAFOs do. And like someone else mentioned, they have vets on staff that can write as many prescriptions as they want.

For example, I don't feed medicated feed, but there are times when I need an antibiotic for the occasional case of mastitis. Do I let the doe suffer while I call all the vets around that might be available to come out and take a look, or do I make a decision that after paying all the vet fees the goat actually isn't worth all that money after all? Unfortunatly, that's what most people that have a backyard milker will eventually have to face with this new law if they are unprepared.

I live in California and I know what I'm going to do! I'm stocking up on "Today" right now and I'll be visiting the feed store every time I happen to be out of state! Why do the common people have to pay for the CAFO's mistake?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Why not just vaccinate for mastitis?


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

I don’t think Texas will follow suit with what California does. We are kinda strange folks here. We dance to our own music.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

goathiker said:


> Why not just vaccinate for mastitis?


Do you or anyone here have first hand experience with mastitis vaccinations? I don't mean to be rude, I would really like to know because if it works, then I'm all for it!

From what I read, they are not that effective for preventing the infection, but they do help make the recovery faster because they boost the immunity.

So still, its not a silver bullet. I'm not against vaccinating, but I still feel we need to have something available that can help before a vet gets there.

Each time I had an outbreak of mastitis I would take a milk sample to the nearest vet (which was over an hour away). The result would come back in a few days, but by then the doe's fever would be gone and I was done giving her the rounds of "Today" and she would be on the road to recovery, no loss of milk production, no deformation of her udder, because I was able to stop it right away. What would have happened if I didn't have the antibiotic on hand?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Sure, I've used mastitis vaccines for years. They aren't a magical cure, there are management tools that go with it. 
So, which or how many of your does are carrying mastitis? 
Are they nursing their kids? 
Are they allowed contact with your virgin does? 
Is your barn and milk room floor washable and kept disinfected? 
Have you been tested for staph to insure that you aren't spreading it on your skin? 

Virgin does must be fully vaccinated before breeding and mastitis carriers must never come into contact with them.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

goathiker said:


> Sure, I've used mastitis vaccines for years. They aren't a magical cure, there are management tools that go with it.
> So, which or how many of your does are carrying mastitis?
> Are they nursing their kids?
> Are they allowed contact with your virgin does?
> ...


Ok, so I have a small herd of oberhaslis consisting of 5 does and 1 buck.

I had one doe that got mastitis in her last freshening 2 years ago. It was staph spp. I asked the vet where the bacteria comes from and she said it was the most common mastitis she sees and it is a bacteria that lives in the soil and just everywhere in general. So, she could have got it from laying in dirty bedding, maybe my hands were dirty, who knows. She got it after her kids were weaned and another does's kids began to nurse from her. She "adopted" them, but it wasn't right away, it was about a month after her kids were sold, so I don't know if it was related. I was milking her once a day since she was about 3 weeks fresh and the mastitis didn't happen until about 3 to 4 months after freshening.

The other doe that got mastitis happened a year later and it was the aureus bacteria. The vet told me that it was not curable and I'd have to let the doe clear it up on her own. I was told that if I didn't isolate her from the rest of the herd that every doe would get it. I think that wasn't totally accurate because her udder cleared up after the first infusion of Today and her fever was down as well. She recovered faster than the doe that had staph the year before and this was a doe that was about 8 or 9 years old, so not a spring chicken by any means and I was a little worried for her, but she surprised me. I have not had any cases since those two, and no I never isolated the doe with the aureus mastitis. None of my other milkers got mastitis even though they all lived together. Each case was isolated to the affected doe only.

About my milking barn and practices, I don't have a floor that I can wash down, but I do wipe down the stand after each milking. I wipe the goat's udder with a baby wipe sprayed with iodine udder wash before milking and after milking I spray the teats with fight bac. Each goat gets a new wipe, I don't re use them. I didn't always milk the goats in a specific order, except when the two had the mastitis infection, and I would always milk the infected one last.

What do you mean about getting my hands treated for spreading staph? If the vet was correct and the bacteria is everywhere, then if I even so much as touch the goat (like if she kicks, or to move her leg) then touch her udder wouldn't that be spreading it?

Also, my question to you goathiker, is would the vaccine be effective on a virgin doeling in my situation where my does all live together? And what if that doeling was a daughter of the doe that got the staph mastitis (whether or not she nursed while her mom had an infection)?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is all a mess for sure, I signed the petition and hope others do as well.

Antibiotics are needed in this world, for those occasional cases. Such as:
Up and down weather temps play a big roll on getting animals sick with pneumonia, in certain situations, to shipping them. 
Just a couple of simple things mind you and they can get sick.

Mastitis can happen and it is scary if we have no plan for how we can treat it right away. 

I do not believe I see uterine boluses on that ban list?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Maryland goes next, it will all happen fast now. 
Maryland has become the second U.S. state to pass a law banning the routine use of antibiotics in healthy livestock and poultry, a move aimed at battling the rise of dangerous antibiotic-resistant bacteria known as "superbugs." ... Farmers in Maryland have until Jan. 1, 2018, to comply with the law.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

goathiker said:


> Maryland goes next, it will all happen fast now.
> Maryland has become the second U.S. state to pass a law banning the routine use of antibiotics in healthy livestock and poultry, a move aimed at battling the rise of dangerous antibiotic-resistant bacteria known as "superbugs." ... Farmers in Maryland have until Jan. 1, 2018, to comply with the law.


Kinda.....not as bad as we are. It will only effect producers on large scales because 1. They understand that the antibiotic given to animals are NOT all the same as that given to a human and 2. Doctors are a issue handing out antibiotics like candy and so is the issue of people not finishing their full dose. I'll see if I can find the article.
Pam- I didn't even think of those when making my list! I didn't see it either but I'm gonna buy some just in case. I still have almost a full tub left but I also bought it about 5 years ago so probably expired as it is lol


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

http://publicnewsservice.org/2017-1...d-law-change-antibiotic-use-on-farms/a60421-1


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm sure the Maryland law will get stronger when Oregon, Pennsylvania, New York, Minnesota, New Jersey, and west Virginia finish passing their bans. 
New York is even stricter than California.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

I bet someone right now is thinking of a way for the black market to meet demand
Maybe Horseprerace


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Antibiotics can't be made by a compounding pharmacy.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

True
But I'm sure someone will figure a way
There are a lot of things that are illegal in this country that someone figures out a way to meet demand


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

TexasGoatMan said:


> I don't think Texas will follow suit with what California does. We are kinda strange folks here. We dance to our own music.


I'm in NC
We don't really look to CA for guidance either.
We would more likely follow TX


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I really hope they stop this insanity for the basic OTC antibiotics. It may take a bit of time before they kill the market and to discover it isn't doing anything good. 

Why couldn't the just restrict the bigger cattle, pig ranches who created this problem for us. 
For the smaller breeder or pet(goat) owners, just restrict the amount of antibiotics that can be purchased within so much time per animal count.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I don’t think it’s going to make a difference either, or if it does a very small amount. I think the only thing that will come out of this is the small guys are going to not make it while the bigger guys are going to go strong. Even then I have yet to meet anyone, no matter the size, make it big with Goats. I Nicole and dime everything to death and only had a SMALL profit the last two years. I’m not even going to attempt to look at how much money I put into them when I first started and try to get that back  
I think doctors are as much to blame as anyone else. Just how they have effected my family is telling for me. My uncle was sick and he went in 3 times because he was sick. They kept telling him he had pneumonia Nd gave him antibiotics, no not pneumonia his heart was failing. My daughter had reflux and she was on a low dose of antibiotics for 2 years to keep her from getting bladder infections because it would go straight to her kidneys, all they had to do was fix her but nope i had no way over my own kid so she stayed on them with no change to her condition and finally they fixed her. I had mastitis and the antibiotics made me go to the bathroom very often, they took my pills away so I never took the full treatment, I was only treated for the 3 days I was in the hospital. That’s 3 different hospitals and doctors so no one is going to convince me it doesn’t happen often!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You are right. 

I know doctors are the brightest tools in the shed.


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

Jessica84 said:


> I think doctors are as much to blame as anyone else. Just how they have effected my family is telling for me. My uncle was sick and he went in 3 times because he was sick. They kept telling him he had pneumonia Nd gave him antibiotics, no not pneumonia his heart was failing. My daughter had reflux and she was on a low dose of antibiotics for 2 years to keep her from getting bladder infections because it would go straight to her kidneys, all they had to do was fix her but nope i had no way over my own kid so she stayed on them with no change to her condition and finally they fixed her. I had mastitis and the antibiotics made me go to the bathroom very often, they took my pills away so I never took the full treatment, I was only treated for the 3 days I was in the hospital. That's 3 different hospitals and doctors so no one is going to convince me it doesn't happen often!


Plus....you have doctors who give antibiotics for viruses just to make people happy. And people who don't finish the antibiotics so they can use them the next time they are sick!! There are so many people who go to the doctor with a cold and get antibiotics for it.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

When I was a kid (1960's), every earache, sore throat or cough was supposedly "cured" by a shot of penicillin. It was the wonder drug that was used for absolutely everything. (Cod Liver Oil used to have that honor). Doctors were thought to be right up there with gods. A lot of old people still feel that way and never question a doctor.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yeah, a little eerie isn't it.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Regarding obtaining meds, I'm very fortunate to have a horse vet live near me, who also treats goats. So if I need a medication he will sell it to me (at a higher price of course). If at all possible, I think any goat owner should develop a very good relationship with their closest goat vet so you can be stocked up with essentials for emergencies.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Hi everyone! I wanted to bring up something sort of related--maybe. A few years back, CA, where I live, passed a law banning chickens in CA from being caged. The dummies did not think to ban eggs from caged birds being sold in CA so you can guess what happened.... Stores bought the now cheaper out of state eggs! The good news is that the law was amended pretty quickly (for the gov't anyway) to require eggs brought in from out of state to also be from uncaged hens, so CA farmers were not being treated unfairly (how ever many of them were still in business by then anyway!) Or at least this is my understanding of it, & it hasn't been in the news again...

So my point is, you don't have to accept this...it could be fixed so it doesn't hurt small farmers, perhaps by severely limiting how many sacks of medicated feed someone can buy, or how many doses of an antibiotic... I imagine the poultry lobby is bigger than the small time goat rancher lobby, but maybe there is some kind of coalition that could be brought together? Just some thoughts...


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Regarding bringing meds in from Mexico, you wouldn't believe what you can get there without a perscription--& cheap too. I have read of some folks who live near the border making periodic "drug runs" for their diabetes meds or whatever, just because it is so much cheaper. I guess it is no problem bringing them across the border.


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

The way I understand the Mexico meds scenario is you can buy meds, but can't bring them back without a scrip.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes!! My kinda second family (the parents are BFF with mine and us kids were raised together) makes a trip to Mexico once a year. Their RX is sickly cheaper then ours! One of my dad’s friends just had all his teeth redone. My luck though I would end up in jail if I even thought of going down there lol anyways I’m sure it’s the same as just traveling from state to state. There’s a check point but as long as you don’t give them a reason to search your car your good. 
Personally I’m good just taking a vacation in Nevada. 
Laurelsh you are very lucky to have a vet not only willing to work with Goats but also knows about them. Sadly that is not always the case. If I had a vet to make a relationship with I would but the ones willing and knowing of Goats are busy with horses or they don’t know anything about Goats and just leave a person with a large bill and a dead animal. I can write you a book on the times I took a chance on getting a vet and how disgusted I was, from killing a doe on a simple sylivary cyst to bring told my does wasn’t worth checking out to just cull her.


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

Screech. Stop. Engage parking brake. So are there meds I can get in Nev. Without a script from my vet?? Road trip soon, passing by Las Vegas.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah, for a bit. In about two years you won't be able to buy them anyway so, what's the point? 
California just hurried the federal shut down. 
Everyone would be better off doing some of the new classes being offered. 
I just finished my second course, interesting stuff. 

I closed my herd three, years ago when it became clear that Obama was doing this. Even in my small herd I have enough bloodlines to carry me through the next ten years of upheaval.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What classes?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

wifeof1 said:


> Screech. Stop. Engage parking brake. So are there meds I can get in Nev. Without a script from my vet?? Road trip soon, passing by Las Vegas.


Not on things like Nuflor, bose things like that but for the over the counter stuff California is now making RX. So penicillin, la200, today and such. This doesn't start till the first of the year so check out a feed stores or tractor supply. A lot of people don't even know this is happening! Back when they were stopping antibiotics in feed they ran what California was going to do on the news once and that was It. I've seen a few posts on FB and a good handful of those people think it's the oral antibiotic thing and won't listen to reason lol so you might be able to still find stuff if you haven't.


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

Our TSC shelves are empty of meds. But I got those, so I'm good.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Goats Rock said:


> When I was a kid (1960's), every earache, sore throat or cough was supposedly "cured" by a shot


This is why I have no immune system. You are so right here. And it is still going on. My daughter, who was angry with me, called social services on me once because the nurse practioner ( hard to see a doctor now) told us my daughter had something I KNEW was a virus and gave me a prescription for an antibiotic. I did not fill it and give it to my daughter because I knew what it was and than it would not help. It became an incredibly huge mess involving a medically uninformed social services worker, a medically uninformed prosecutor and even more uninformed defense lawyer, and a medically uninformed judge.

By that time, my daughter was over the virus and I did not have to give her the antibiotic.

I comforted myself that 1. I had actually succeeded in protecting my daughters immune system, and 2. she would not be 13 forever...

I know there are people who want to feel superior to the medical profession in any way. I am not one of those people. I did know better in that particular case though.

The nurse practitioner is still practicing, and she's still stupid. Others are great though, It was just her. I'm so glad we have that role being filled here where I live.

Yes, my daughter did grow up and we are now great friends.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I haven't been back to this thread for a while, and all I can say is wow.

Now, all I can say is....

Number 1. I meant that the corporations are the ones writing these laws and exempting their own practices. The law makers should know more than they do, but they don't, and are accepting what they are being told by their constituents. Corporations are legal people and are constituents. The law makers are passing laws that sound good and are well meaning, but don't actually address the stated problem. If more corporations are in more contact with the lawmakers than the smaller farmers and hobbyists are, then that is all the law makers will know about.

Number 2. Kentucky, when not doing it's own weird unexplainable dance, will follow Texas, not California. If I can at all help get non rx stuff to people, I will help. I won't break the rx laws in my own State, though.

This offer of help is sincere and ongoing.

I love you, and need you. If you need me, you know where to find me.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

wifeof1 said:


> Our TSC shelves are empty of meds. But I got those, so I'm good.


I can get La200 and penicillin from TSC and many other things that I can't remember the names of at the current moment


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

wifeof1 said:


> Our TSC shelves are empty of meds. But I got those, so I'm good.


Does that have anything to do with the fires?


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

No. It has to do with everyone preparing for the new regulations.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

The new regulations on OTC antibiotics being pulled, was the doing of Governor Jerry Brown, we are praying he is not replaced by the same thoughts Governor in 2018 and maybe it will be overturned, if the right one gets in to replace him. Jerry Browns term is up next year.
We will see how that goes, but yet with all the mess we have here in California, the outcome of our hopes may not happen. Can't go into detail because of TGS rules. 

Going into Mexico can be very dangerous, I wouldn't recommend it.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Maybe with all the new and impending regulations, veterinarians may actually start to learn about goats! (I can hope, can't I?):haha:


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Uggggggh Just got a email from TSC
As of January first 2018 government is banning LA200 from being sold off the self. 
I'd better stock up


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Goats Rock said:


> Maybe with all the new and impending regulations, veterinarians may actually start to learn about goats! (I can hope, can't I?):haha:


Please hope! I'll hope with you


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## Goat4it (Dec 30, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> California is banning LA200 and PenG off store shelves, Jan 2018.
> It is really frustrating, how they further make it tough for the goat breeders and others.
> So if you live in California, stock up a bit before year end.
> 
> ...


Hi, can I give my 5monthold Pygmy LA300? How c do give? Thx


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Injection.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Why do you need to give it?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

What is the issue?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

goat girls said:


> Uggggggh Just got a email from TSC
> As of January first 2018 government is banning LA200 from being sold off the self.
> I'd better stock up


Yes! Every place can no longer sell antibiotics to California residents


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

But Goat Girls lives in New Mexico. It's spreading... oozing... seeping

Sighing


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

New Mexico is banning them too?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Unless her stated location is inaccurate...???


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

New Mexico is being banned from selling LA200 off the self as far as I know that's it


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

just LA200 not penicillin 


toth boer goats said:


> New Mexico is banning them too?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Another point, is this a corporate TSC decision for your area, or is a State law decision for your area?

Here is an example of how a corporate decision can be confused with a law (State, Federal, or Municipal)

I was working in a convenience store that sold cigarettes. Law was going to raise the taxes on them (to help balance out the federal costs related to smoking them) Everyone knew this. Phillip Morris raised the price ahead of the scheduled rise in taxes, to take advantage of the people who would be stocking up before the expected rise.

There was not a single person I sold to that would believe that. I had to stand there and endure verbal abuse from these customers who were convinced that the government had raised the price, even though the published schedule for raising the taxes was not for 2 more months. No matter how I tried to explain it, it was either my fault (???????) or the Federal Government's fault and no blame what so ever was ever assigned to the party who had complete control at that point (the corporate entity that actually owned the cigs and was the only one capable at that point of raising or lowering the price)

Now, I don't care, really. Someone can smoke or not smoke (not in my airspace though, I care about that) buy something cheap or expensive. I just don't have a dog in that hunt. But not only did people not know what was really happening, they refused to believe what was really happening when it was explained. They got mad at me for trying to let them know. They wanted to be persecuted by big bad government.

You aren't like that, goat girls. I just wondered, because you were so specific this came from TSC, if you knew if this was TSC reacting to something else, or if it was a State or Local government thing. Have you asked anyone else if this ban effects them?


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

It's a state law but my friend can get it from her vet


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Huh I wonder why just la200? Ours actually makes sense (in a stupid way lol) they are banning it all but I wonder why only the one. I should probably stop trying to make sense of anything really.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Jessica84 said:


> I should probably stop trying to make sense of anything really.


I don't think you can stop. You are far too rational. It is your gift. It is your curse. It is your thorny path.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, yeah, seems weird it is only LA200. Like what???
Oh well, my brain is swirling, LOL. :crazy:


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## BrokenArrowRanch (Jun 6, 2013)

It's not just la 200. It's all antibiotics


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

BrokenArrowRanch said:


> It's not just la 200. It's all antibiotics


 We are talking about New Mexico.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

NM doesn't always *have* a path; our state motto is: Crescit Eundo, it grows as it goes. Pretty organic, no?


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Speaking of "organic" how many are looking into herbal remedies or things like that? & if so have you had any success stories? What are some other alternatives for people who don't have a vet available, don't live near Mexico, & have a goat that needs help sooner than Maria Rose can get a care package in the mail?


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Iv'e got no idea why it's just La200 it does seem weird


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

So I am assuming it is now off the shelf? How frustrating. I don't mind involving a vet say once a year, but I want meds on hand for emergencies. Haven't heard about this in Ny yet....sighs


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Grrr yes it's off the self. But I got two bottles in Dec. That was the limit so my mom went and got two as well and sense I already have half of a bottle I should be set for a while.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

What's the expiration? I keep mine in the fridge...


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

7/12/19 
I have a little tiny fridge(like what would be at a college dorm) for my La200, pro pen g, CDT etc.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Nice! I have a shelf in my refrigerator full lol


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

I had that for a while then decided that I really needed somewhere else to keep all of it,started looking in to the mini fridges then suddenly my friend gave me her old one!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I have one...just need to dig it out!


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

The list of stuff that I need to dig out.........miles long!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

lol...I just made a mile long list on my Jeffers shopping cart :/ Cha-Ching!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Sorry, getting off topic! I'll be quiet now :[


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

I just did the same! The balance in the bank account is probably $00.00 lol


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

lol well I'll be prepared for the year!


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

Catharina, I have been looking into that through the Fiasco Farms website. My doe had proto-mastitis last year and I didn`t know what to do, so I just stripped and stripped and stripped (not for 24 hours straight, but a lot) on that side. It's what I did for me when I had a hot painful breastfeeding while breastfeeding. Very 19th century, I know, but it did the trick.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I know what going broke is, stocking up buying antibiotics, so I am covered for a while. 

The bill kept going higher and higher, as my head dropped lower and lower, LOL.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> I know what going broke is, stocking up buying antibiotics, so I am covered for a while.
> 
> The bill kept going higher and higher, as my head dropped lower and lower, LOL.


yep that about covers it!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

You know what’s really sad though? How much do you really think you will use or what you bough before you have to toss it? 
It has always been worth it just to have on hand but to stock pile everything at once sure hurt.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I know what you mean. 

Thank goodness mine expires next year, from Jeffers. 
I bought the smaller bottle of 100 mg bottles, so I can open a little bottle at a time as needed. Instead of a huge one that once opened, will go bad sooner after opened. Even though it would of been cheaper to get the bigger ones.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Hum baby I can get it from Jeffers.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Oh my it's expensive!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> I know what going broke is, stocking up buying antibiotics, so I am covered for a while.
> 
> The bill kept going higher and higher, as my head dropped lower and lower, LOL.


hahaha, I know! I just got a bunch of meds last night. I'm wondering ...I have an unopened bottle of dex that has been in the fridge. Expiration is 08/17. I had a bottle in the cabinet too but I accidentally bought a third bottle so now I have two bottles of dex unopened AND the expired one. I have a very small herd and definitely won't need the expired one. If anyone would like it, I will send it to you for just shipping cost. Let me know.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Do you think it'd still be any good? @tothboergoats


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Guess while we're taking about meds I'll ask my question, I did the dreaded chore of organizing my goat bin. I noticed that my b-complex is about 4 months expired will it still work the same if I give more of it?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Vitamins lose their potency after a while. I'd be throwing it out and getting a new bottle.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

I have a new bottle (found the old by buying a new one)


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Toss it then.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

ok


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Yep, I had a goat get polio from expired bcomplex not working when he went off feed. Toss it. Not sure about things like dex though...


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

NyGoatMom said:


> Yep, I had a goat get polio from expired bcomplex not working when he went off feed. Toss it. Not sure about things like dex though...


OMG!!! I NEVER would have thought it would cause harm! Not work as well? Sure! But that is scary! I'm hardly ever use B and I don't know if I've ever looked at the date! I need to go look at that


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Yeah, I just updated LG's thread on polio because I remembered I had wanted to do that. He got polio because when he was off feed from probably pneumonia, I started him on the bcomplex but he then got polio. Couldn't figure out why, until later on I realized the bottle I got was expired.Hence it was useless that I was giving it to him.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

It has been properly "tossed"


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

NyGoatMom said:


> Do you think it'd still be any good? @tothboergoats


The Dex may still be good for short time. 
I wouldn't push it much longer. 
I cannot tell you how much longer.

It is good it has never been open and has been refrigerated.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, drugs will lose potency after expiration date and already opened.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Guess I'll toss it...I have two new bottles


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sounds good.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Isn't Dex Rx?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes


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## Kaigypsygoats (Jan 10, 2018)

I just wandered through the actual legislative bill it passed w/ hardly a No vote in 2015. So being that is a bit late to purchase them or even be up in arms about it, do we have ideas for alternatives? Herbal or otherwise? We still have not found a vet who does ruminates in the high desert.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh wow, not sure yet. 
Hopefully someone can chime in on that for you.


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