# 2 or more?



## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

We have our 3 goats expecting, and am concerned one may be having multiples! 

Hoping for success, and concerned on knowing if/when to intervene!

She seems to be the largest of the 3!


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Just keep in mind the 30 minute rule. It should be 30 minutes or less from the start of heavy pushing to the birth of the first, and under thirty minutes in between each birth.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Actually I think multiples are less likely to be troublesome. They are smaller and thus easier for the doe to push out. I have read that sometimes with trips, two will be lined up and ready to go and the third will come out in a crazy positions, but that didn't happen with my trips.My main concern with multiples is not having enough milk to go around!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I do agree.

But you never know until they kid, about how it will go.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

The 30 minute rule is a good reminder, and great to have a rule of thumb to follow.

I guess if all deliveries were the same, or by the book we wouldn't all be so nervous! As we got two of our goats from auction, and the were already bred, which we didn't know...adds to our concerns. One of the two does died, and she was carrying twins we learned after we lost her! They were 8 1/2 and 7 3/4 pounds, so we figured she was close to delivery. Very sad, to say the least. The second one, had the 10 pound male, who is doing well! 

Anyhow, we have them separated and in neighboring birthing pens, which seem appropriate for them.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

These are the pens for the 3 who are due next


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Those are great looking pens~~really nice! If you don't mind, one thing I noticed is that their water is down low. I would move it up higher so a doe doesn't accidentally give birth and have it fall in the water. Good luck with your kiddings!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Nice pens


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

goatblessings said:


> Those are great looking pens~~really nice! If you don't mind, one thing I noticed is that their water is down low. I would move it up higher so a doe doesn't accidentally give birth and have it fall in the water. Good luck with your kiddings!


Good point ! I know he moved one up but will see that they all get moved up!

Thanks!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Nice pens.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Well very sad news to report, as the goat in the first photo had twins overnight on Saturday and Sunday morning they were found dead. One still in the sac, the other cleaned up. I am guessing we errors in not having extra heat available for them, as it was cold overnight coupled with not recognizing she was ready to deliver...hearing the report from the farm Sunday morning was and still is heart-Wrenching! The kids weighed in at 3 1/2 and the second at 4 pounds. Do you think they were born early? Or that she for some reason couldn't support them? I believe that ultimately, the cold got them. It was at the freezing point overnight, and not much warmer during the day.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Probably the cold. Was mom a first timer? Sorry you lost them.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

No, she wasn't which makes me even sadder. However, I do believe the cold was the killer. We had some rabbits a year ago and had the same thing happen. We should have learned, it is just too cold to not have supplemental heat. Never again!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Thanks for the support and all of the suggestions, all are appreciated! We have something wrong in our system, and need to figure it out. Way too many deaths and premature births with the goats. A friend came over to assist in milking the one who miscarried first, and was able to see the other miscarriage and felt that the issue could be with the buck that bred them. I feel this is unlikely, yet can't rule out anything at this point! She is an organic dairy farmer, and explained that rarely, with the preemies, and complications we have had, that it can be the issue with the male. Our buck, 2by4,(as he is a stud), is a healthy young buck. His stature, at the time of breeding, was slightly shorter, overall than the does-could this be the issue? 

I suspect, our feeding/nutrtion is off, causing premature births. Hay has been challenging in getting high quality, which we may finally have solved. But have to get an actual sample out to get it tested.... Also, I feel we haven't adjusted the feeding for the expectant mothers, and need to learn more about proper nutrition for the does.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

This is a picture I took of 2 X 4, "2by" for short, at about 5 months. He is a little over a year old now.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Tell us everything you feed and what supplements you give along with amounts.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Tell us everything you feed and what supplements you give along with amounts.

Hi Karen,

I will do just that! I will get that information to you in the best detail I can get, as I will be at the farm all day on Thursday! I do know the goats are allowed total free choice on hay, and they get a grain mix, and some vitamins, but I will get the precise amounts on them and let you all know!

Thanks for the offer and assistance.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Some pictures of Brownie who should be nearly ready to kid-tell me what you think-if you can see the photos


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Her right side seems shallow or sunken, but when she is sitting she is very large!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Her tail


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

More info on the photos I have attached, in case anyone has ia better feel for when our does are due, I have included here. We are new at this, and aren't sure when the goats are due. We did have the marking crayon on our buck, and marked down the obvious markings on the does. Brownie and another, "Maggie," who is in a neighboring birthing pen were both marked on November 7th, 2015. Using the gestation calculator, would put the two of them at the 5th of this month, or would have been already! 

Maggie(not in the photo), was marked once again, very heavily on the 17 th of November. We don't know for sure, how accurate the marking system is, or if others rely on it for predicti estimate dates, but that is the only information I have on those two. 

In feeling by the tail bone, hers is very different than the others, and more easy for us are easier to grab, as if the ligaments have loosened, as described as a sign.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No one can tell you when they are due. Usually they start bagging up about a month prior to kidding but sometimes they take 2 months to bag up and sometimes they bag up after they kid.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Grain mix and what else we feed*



ksalvagno said:


> Tell us everything you feed and what supplements you give along with amounts.


I will get the exact totals of all we feed, but I did scan the mix we purchased from the feed mill last time for our goats. I will summarize this and the rest of our feeding, minerals, and supplements.

Attached is the grain mix:book:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is not a good feed. It definitely isn't balanced for a goat.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

The buck & doe are SO CUTE! I LOVE his name too!

So sad about the kids...it's very very hard to tell when a doe is about to kid, so don't be too hard on yourself. I suppose it helped with the survival of their wild ancestors to not give any signs they were about to give birth-that would attract predators.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Is that made for goats? It should have added minerals & things like that. Here is what I feed my goats-as an example of one of many possible diets, not "advice" because I'm not an expert
free choice hay, more grass than alfalfa--we have no pasture.
half cup or so of organic dairy goat pellets or other goat chow pellets
a sprinkle of black oil sunflower seeds or some corn oil for shiny coats
kitchen vegetable or fruit scraps if we have any
big tree branches or prunings as often as possible
mineral & salt block specifically made for goats
free choice baking soda
It's important that they have copper somewhere in their diet. Hopefully other people will tell us what they feed, & you can see what would work best for you. Goat books also have feeding instructions.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

The feed listed is only a portion of the measured grain we give them, along with some minerals, supplements, alfalfa pellets, and free choice hay. I am getting the exact weights and measurements of each and post a summary of everything we are giving later today. This is only the mix we purchased from the mill, which they get dIly, plus the rest. I just want to get the actual measurements and sources of where he purchased the remainder of what we feed them.

On a separate note, has anyone given their goats power punch? Our lamb breeder has used this and reccomends it?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

This is the power punch bottle. Have you used this for goats at stressful times or after birth for the doe?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

These are the alfalfa pellets we are using beginning in March. Our hay will be tested, this week, & I look forward to those results.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

If the right picture uploaded this should be the bag of goat minerals


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

This is what we are feeding our pregnant and nursing doe goats. Note, we just started the alfalfa pellets towards the end of March. We have just purchased some new hay, from a different source that should be richer than the hay we had. We will be sending a test sample of the hay in for analysis the first part of the week.

Feed for Goats

1.). Free choice hay
2.). Grain mix from coop. 2 1/2 pounds---corn, oats, bran, soybean meal, and liquid molasses.
Plus, added to the grain mix is 1 pound of alfalfa pellets
3.) Supplements (the supplements are free choice and available all day in a separate feed bin)
- Sprout Brand Goat minerals
- Redmonds conditioner
The other bags and ingredients I have uploaded the bags, and amounts of on this thread. 

The Redmonds conditioner is uploaded here now.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

This is the back of the conditioner back from Redmond

Thank you


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What kind of hay.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

We are just hanging the hay out for our goats and they just started it on Thursday of this week. The oldest more grass with about 20% alfalfa. The new, yet to be tested this upcoming g week, is supposed to be about 90% alfalfa -when we get the actual results on the new hay, I can post them. I am guessing that might take two weeks to get the results of it. The farmer we purchased the hay from told us it is 90% alfalfa-so we will see!


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

From the rough coat it appears they need more minerals. The goat mineral you posted looks ok. No need for the conditioner really. I would suggest copper bolus and have a fecal run


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## moonmilk_creamery (Oct 21, 2015)

Those minerals seem fine...


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

The cold should not have been a problem. Up here does kid in January and February when it gets below 0 sometimes. I've had does kid in those temps when I was at work and came home to healthy, dry, well fed newborns. With 1 dead and 1 in the sac, I wonder if there was more to it than that. She should have had the sac open and the kid cleaned.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Fecal test and copper*



sassykat6181 said:


> From the rough coat it appears they need more minerals. The goat mineral you posted looks ok. No need for the conditioner really. I would suggest copper bolus and have a fecal run


What will we be looking for in a fecal test or will the vet know? I feel the vet is more versed on horses and cows, so I would want to be sure we k ow what we are asking for.

What is copper bolus?


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

My goats ignored all of the different mineral supplements I bought. I have to say, they all looked like sand & not food! Can anyone suggest a brand they know their goats actually consume? Mine really love their mineral salt block but I just re-read the label & it has no selenium! I need to take my time reading labels at the feed store. Minerals are tricky for me.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

We too began with the blocks, but have went to the bagged Sprout brand because that was recommended to us versus having to lick the block. I feel ours are missing nutrtion, but am also suspect on nearly everything, due to the deaths. We are looking and evaluating all aspects of what we do. These goats are on our sons farm, so it is not possible for me to be at his farm every day, but he is and is obviously very concerned as well. He too has tried to find the best blend for his goats.

I must say however, that since he began offering the Sprout minerals with the conditioner, the goats actually really seem to go for it! Our thought is that they really Must Need it, as the Go For It! Animals tend to eat what they need, so maybe yours aren't deficient? 

After caring for the one who miscarried we observed her hitting her mineral bucket with intense fervor!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Feed and baking soda?*



catharina said:


> Is that made for goats? It should have added minerals & things like that. Here is what I feed my goats-as an example of one of many possible diets, not "advice" because I'm not an expert
> free choice hay, more grass than alfalfa--we have no pasture.
> half cup or so of organic dairy goat pellets or other goat chow pellets
> a sprinkle of black oil sunflower seeds or some corn oil for shiny coats
> ...


I meant to ask about, why the baking soda?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would not put out free choice baking soda. They make it on their own and if they eat baking soda all the time, then their bodies won't see the need to make it.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I'm going to look for Sprout minerals out here-you actually saw the goat eat it! I'll leave the salt & mineral block though--they really love it.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Hi Odie!

The baking soda (free choice) is recommended by my goat book. They use it to regulate the pH in their rumens-I guess they know when they need it.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Actually, they usually eat it for the salt content. That's why your goats aren't eating their minerals. :lol: 


OdieClark- Try this mix, it will be a bit more expensive but much better.

200 lbs. whole oats
100 lbs. rolled barley
50 lbs. generic calf manna
40 lbs black oil sunflower seeds
10 lbs. dried feed peas or split peas


Now, both your mineral mix and your conditioner are extremely high in iron. It is blocking all the other minerals that they need. Molasses is also very high in iron.
See if you can find one of these: Sweetlix meatmaker, Onyx right now for cattle (Cargill), Manna Pro, or Payback goat minerals. 
Get them the pretty blue cobalt/iodine blocks. 
Get them some natural sea salt rocks instead of using the conditioner.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

goathiker said:


> Actually, they usually eat it for the salt content. That's why your goats aren't eating their minerals. :lol:
> 
> OdieClark- Try this mix, it will be a bit more expensive but much better.
> 
> ...


Interesting! Thank you! I will share your info with our son and my husband, as we clearly need to make some changes!

On another thread I had posted TDG recommended the following 
"That mix is actually kinda terrible in many aspects. Copper really needs to be at least 3000 ppm. But even then, sulfate or oxide based, you will need to copper bolus. Has a very high zinc level, which is great but its both oxide and sulfate based. When orally ingested, they only get about 20% absorption rate from these two base type minerals. But put that aside. That Iron is WAY to high. In fact, unless you know for a fact you are deficient in iron, you should never use a mineral mix with it added in. Iron binds to minerals and makes them even less effective at absorption. Most areas have more then enough iron in the water as to not need to supplement with it. If I had to guess, that might be a big part of your problem. The selenium is rather low as well. At this level you would also need to supplement with Bo-Se + vit E. This should be done a month before breeding and a month before kidding. OR you can do Multimin90. Both are vet prescribed. Here is a decent mix as an example. You will notice its not an ideal mix but decent. The ppm are lower in some areas but its a more natural mineral base (amino acid complex). We have started doing Multimin90 shots a few times a year and leaving this mineral mix as well as another mix out free choice. The other mix is mainly salt and has higher selenium. Gives the animals the option of salt or mineral as a mineral mix shouldnt be high in salt.

http://www.paybackfeeds.com/tag_book/documents/2550_16-8_GoatMinPlus.pdf
__________________"
I haven't yet found the 16-8 for sale locally, but have a few more calls to make.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That's another thing,your level of zinc should never be more than 3 times the amount of copper. 

TDG does do things a little differently than I do. He lives on the dry side of Washington and I live on wet side Oregon. His goats are dry lotted and mine have pasture browse. His main focus is as a commercial dairy and mine is as a small homestead.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

goathiker said:


> That's another thing,your level of zinc should never be more than 3 times the amount of copper.
> 
> TDG does do things a little differently than I do. He lives on the dry side of Washington and I live on wet side Oregon. His goats are dry lotted and mine have pasture browse. His main focus is as a commercial dairy and mine is as a small homestead.


Do you think dairy needs are different than for meat?


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Now I'm REALLY freaking out about minerals!! Too many numbers melt my brain! I guess I will try to copy all that down on paper for the next trip to the feed store. Do you think the copper boluses are needed if they get copper in their goat chow pellets & salt mineral block?

Also in a quandary now about the baking soda-they say it keeps them from getting bloat & scours & stuff. I'd never heard anything against it till now. But if it doesn't help them I am wasting money.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

They make their own by chewing cud. If you give them extra they quit making their own so, it no longer works when needed anyway, It's much better to only use it when it really is needed.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Goat minerals! Sprout or 16-8?*



catharina said:


> I'm going to look for Sprout minerals out here-you actually saw the goat eat it! I'll leave the salt & mineral block though--they really love it.


Don't take this as a recommendation, as I believe ours go for it as they are very deficient, and we haven't quite figured out if this is our only issue, or one of several! So, I will post the photos of the two here, and see what you think, based on my pics and screen shots! I haven't found a seller in Wisconsin for the 16-8, so may call the company to figure out if I can have it sent from somewhere else!

Let me know what you think, or how it works out for you!
Sprout is first attachment


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*16-8 sprout, or what goat minerals?*



odieclark said:


> Don't take this as a recommendation, as I believe ours go for it as they are very deficient, and we haven't quite figured out if this is our only issue, or one of several! So, I will post the photos of the two here, and see what you think, based on my pics and screen shots! I haven't found a seller in Wisconsin for the 16-8, so may call the company to figure out if I can have it sent from somewhere else!
> 
> Let me know what you think, or how it works out for you!
> Sprout is first attachment


Info I found on 16-8


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Details of minerals, what's bolus? And Huh?!?*



catharina said:


> Now I'm REALLY freaking out about minerals!! Too many numbers melt my brain! I guess I will try to copy all that down on paper for the next trip to the feed store. Do you think the copper boluses are needed if they get copper in their goat chow pellets & salt mineral block?
> 
> Also in a quandary now about the baking soda-they say it keeps them from getting bloat & scours & stuff. I'd never heard anything against it till now. But if it doesn't help them I am wasting money.


Oh, I know exactly what you are saying! It is overwhelming, yet we all feel just awful, as the goats seem to have paid a high price on our sons farm...with several goat kids lost, along with an (unknown to us) expecting doe carrying twins we lost-7 3/4 pounds and 8 1/2 pounds! So, i am determined to help figure this out and do the best we can!

But, my mind is blown away, no doubt!

Bolus...?:whatgoat:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Mineral options and confusion*



goathiker said:


> Actually, they usually eat it for the salt content. That's why your goats aren't eating their minerals. :lol:
> 
> OdieClark- Try this mix, it will be a bit more expensive but much better.
> 
> ...


So I have to admit I am unclear on the path to take for the minerals for our goats. The 16-8 payback minerals for goats are not sold in the state of Wisconsin. I found a dealer who is about 1 1/2 hours away who would be willing to order the 16-8, but obviously this isn't an ideal solution, as they don't currently carry this product. I do believe they carry manna pro for goats. Is the manna pro as good, or comparable to the 16-8? It seems that the Sprout brand is not highly regarded on this forum. However, we want to locate the best alternative, and I am not clear what that might be.

Also, what is copper bolus?

Thank you


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Manna pro goat mineral!

I found this information online, is this manna pro that some referred to on here?


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## Olliehaven (Jan 25, 2016)

odieclark said:


> Info I found on 16-8


I thought that ppm for zinc should not be higher that ppm for copper? Doesn't Zinc block copper absorption?


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## Olliehaven (Jan 25, 2016)

odieclark said:


> So I have to admit I am unclear on the path to take for the minerals for our goats. The 16-8 payback minerals for goats are not sold in the state of Wisconsin. I found a dealer who is about 1 1/2 hours away who would be willing to order the 16-8, but obviously this isn't an ideal solution, as they don't currently carry this product. I do believe they carry manna pro for goats. Is the manna pro as good, or comparable to the 16-8? It seems that the Sprout brand is not highly regarded on this forum. However, we want to locate the best alternative, and I am not clear what that might be.
> 
> Also, what is copper bolus?
> 
> Thank you


I only use manna pro minerals. Where in Wisconsin are you located? Tractor Supply carries the manna pro minerals. A copper bolus is a capsule that slowly releases copper to the goat. It's a supplement. I copper bolus my goats every 6 months. Were I am located we are considered slightly deficient. Most of Wisconsin is also selenium deficient. I would consider give either bose or the selenium vitamin e gel.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The PPM for zinc should not be more than 3 times the PPM for copper. It is a little high in Manna Pro but, you won't really find much better ratios. The chleated minerals are the same proteinates. It is a good mineral. I'll dredge up the old info on copper bolus.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Manna pro or wait for 16-8?*



goathiker said:


> The PPM for zinc should not be more than 3 times the PPM for copper. It is a little high in Manna Pro but, you won't really find much better ratios. The chleated minerals are the same proteinates. It is a good mineral. I'll dredge up the old info on copper bolus.


Thank you for your prompt reply!

Do you feel the 16-8 is best? Better than man a pro, and for sure better than the sprout, that I should wait and order the 16-8?

I hope to locate the man a pro tomorrow or else order the other then. Hopefully then we can tackle the holistic, & evaluate the feed mix they get, & wait for our hay results.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Holistic is supposed to be bolus


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I've never used the Payback 16:8 myself. If that is the one Dave uses I believe he is the only one who does. It's a premix, not a finished mineral for free choice. 

I have used the Sweetlix 16:8, Manna Pro is also a 16:8 mineral. That number refers to the Calcium/Phosphorus content. 
Manna Pro is what I use most of the time.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here is the study on copper. Since this time we've discovered that most of the US is deficient and dealers are selling goat sized boluses.

http://saanendoah.com/copper1.html


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

You really try to be conscientious, Odie-all those supplements & things! Most goats don't get nearly that, & do OK. You have really been doing your best & trying find out the cause of the stillbirths. I will be very interested to hear more about your goats & if it really is due to nutrition, or something else.

I wonder if a baby monitor in the barn would help alert whoever is home that someone is kidding? Then you might find out if the kids are born alive but something goes wrong, or if it is truly stillbirth. Also a chance you could intervene & save them.

Good luck-I hope the problem is found & solved soon--you sure are trying!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Manna pro and selenium*



Olliehaven said:


> I only use manna pro minerals. Where in Wisconsin are you located? Tractor Supply carries the manna pro minerals. A copper bolus is a capsule that slowly releases copper to the goat. It's a supplement. I copper bolus my goats every 6 months. Were I am located we are considered slightly deficient. Most of Wisconsin is also selenium deficient. I would consider give either bose or the selenium vitamin e gel.


Thank you! The goats are able to go outside, except that those who are expecting are in the pens, otherwise they go out. Being in the peninsula of Wisconsin, it is often cold and windy, but they are able to go in and out of the barn(which they do!)

I am making calls now to locate the manna pro goat mineral!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Bolus*



goathiker said:


> Here is the study on copper. Since this time we've discovered that most of the US is deficient and dealers are selling goat sized boluses.
> 
> http://saanendoah.com/copper1.html


Thank you! Wow, that is a study I could read 100 times! Yikes! However, great info in there, we will all read it, and take heed!:hi5:

Calling on the manna pro! Hoping I can get it and have it to our goats by lunchtime!

Thank you!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Monitor, kidding and compassion!*



catharina said:


> You really try to be conscientious, Odie-all those supplements & things! Most goats don't get nearly that, & do OK. You have really been doing your best & trying find out the cause of the stillbirths. I will be very interested to hear more about your goats & if it really is due to nutrition, or something else.
> 
> I wonder if a baby monitor in the barn would help alert whoever is home that someone is kidding? Then you might find out if the kids are born alive but something goes wrong, or if it is truly stillbirth. Also a chance you could intervene & save them.
> 
> Good luck-I hope the problem is found & solved soon--you sure are trying!


LUCK, we will take Luck! Prayers, and all the helpful advice! Thanks for your concern, really! We are trying, and want to get it right and do the best for the animals! Still investigating, ....

Yes, baby monitor! So funny! We have employed the use of our old baby monitor and it really works like a charm! The guys thought I was crazy when I suggested it, but it has been used now for a few weeks!:sleeping::angelgoat::baby::baby:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

goathiker said:


> That's another thing,your level of zinc should never be more than 3 times the amount of copper.
> 
> TDG does do things a little differently than I do. He lives on the dry side of Washington and I live on wet side Oregon. His goats are dry lotted and mine have pasture browse. His main focus is as a commercial dairy and mine is as a small homestead.


Found the manna pro and started the 3 in the pens on it!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

catharina said:


> You really try to be conscientious, Odie-all those supplements & things! Most goats don't get nearly that, & do OK. You have really been doing your best & trying find out the cause of the stillbirths. I will be very interested to hear more about your goats & if it really is due to nutrition, or something else.
> 
> I wonder if a baby monitor in the barn would help alert whoever is home that someone is kidding? Then you might find out if the kids are born alive but something goes wrong, or if it is truly stillbirth. Also a chance you could intervene & save them.
> 
> Good luck-I hope the problem is found & solved soon--you sure are trying!


Catherina 
Well, I found the goat minerals, crazy process and I purchased, i swear, nearly the last bag in the state! Oh my!

Surprisingly, the largest goat immediately tried it! Yeah! I will try and post some pics of her. She is all brown and sort of homely!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

I tried loading a few pics, but for some reason it seems it only takes one at a time?!?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

"Brownie". She is supposed to be due the 16th of this month


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Brownies photos aren't the best! However, do you think she looks closer? We are hoping she has a healthy delivery! Pretty concerned after the problems we have run into...but hoping and prepared for the best!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Her udder has a ways to fill up.


----------



## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Selenium deficient -vitamin E?*



Olliehaven said:


> I only use manna pro minerals. Where in Wisconsin are you located? Tractor Supply carries the manna pro minerals. A copper bolus is a capsule that slowly releases copper to the goat. It's a supplement. I copper bolus my goats every 6 months. Were I am located we are considered slightly deficient. Most of Wisconsin is also selenium deficient. I would consider give either bose or the selenium vitamin e gel.


How will we know if we are deficient? Is this through sampling or testing the water? The goats are in the Door. If you hold your left Palm straight ou and away from you, the goats are located about the mid way of your thumb! Where are you in Wisconsin? I drove to tractor supply and purchased the last small bag of the manna pro.

What is bose?


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Based off of Brownie's coat, it looks like she is copper deficient. 

I'm sure TSC will get more minerals in soon. 

Bose is selenium/e, it's only available through a vet.


----------



## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Time for the Udder to fill up-due dates?*



ksalvagno said:


> Her udder has a ways to fill up.


Hi Karen, thank you for all of your help and suggestions! So, her udders have a ways yet, do you think that means her due date is further out than April 16th? We felt she was bred by our first buck, "2 by 4," and not our clean up buck, "Hillbilly!" I have to look back, but believe Hillbilly was put in much later than when we took, 2by out! We also have another goat that was marked by 2by4, Maggie, but she doesn't look big at all, nor does another who was in with him. I am guessing they weren't bred by 2by, and likely aren't pregnant? I am assuming if they were expecting somewhat soon, it should be obvious at this point. Is that a fair assumption?

I guess to know for sure, we can give them a pregnancy test.:thinking:


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Really no one can tell you when her due date is.... Udders can fill up right before kidding or even after, or they can take their time filling up.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Copper!*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> Based off of Brownie's coat, it looks like she is copper deficient.
> 
> I'm sure TSC will get more minerals in soon.
> 
> Bose is selenium/e, it's only available through a vet.


Thank you! I know, many of the goats have rough coats, so that means they are likely low on copper!?! That can be dealt with!

From being copper deficiencies would that cause abortions, miscarriages, stillbirths?

TSC will get more, and I hope I can also order some from a closer feed store, without going so out of my way for it.

I will add this to the vets list! I am skeptical our vet treats very many goats, so really appreciate being able to have some suggestions on possible areas of need.

Thank you!:hi5:


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## Olliehaven (Jan 25, 2016)

odieclark said:


> How will we know if we are deficient? Is this through sampling or testing the water? The goats are in the Door. If you hold your left Palm straight ou and away from you, the goats are located about the mid way of your thumb! Where are you in Wisconsin? I drove to tractor supply and purchased the last small bag of the manna pro.
> 
> What is bose?


I am in Green Bay, not to far from you! Telltale signs of copper deficiency are fading coat colors, hair loss on the tip of the tails, looks like a fish tail, general unthriftiness. Thier coats will look rough and coarse. Not sure how far you are from Appleton, but the tractor supply there always has manna pro minerals. 
Bose is a selenium supplement that has to be prescribed to you by your vet. With where you are located, I would suspect that your area is deficient of selenium. As mostly the whole state is deficient.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Selenium*



Olliehaven said:


> I am in Green Bay, not to far from you! Telltale signs of copper deficiency are fading coat colors, hair loss on the tip of the tails, looks like a fish tail, general unthriftiness. Thier coats will look rough and coarse. Not sure how far you are from Appleton, but the tractor supply there always has manna pro minerals.
> Bose is a selenium supplement that has to be prescribed to you by your vet. With where you are located, I would suspect that your area is deficient of selenium. As mostly the whole state is deficient.


Great! Actually I am on the opposite side of the thumb, as it's our sons farm! So, basically I drove from here to Shawano and then up to the Door and then back through Green Bay and back up here! So, lots of driving yesterday, but it was worth it, as I got what I wanted for the goats and am trying to get this straight for the goats. We also have some, goats here our other son is raising just for meat. 7 of them we got from auction. They are sweet little guys here!

I plan to check with Tammys tack and feed as they carry some of those products and are located in Oconto-easier for me!


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## Olliehaven (Jan 25, 2016)

Yes! I believe they carry it, or can order it. Otherwise, not sure how far you are from suamico/Abrams but windenoak tack and feed (the old Tammy's tack and feed) will order it and ship to you! And it's not that expensive to do so. I have my horse feed delivered and it's only an extra 5 dollars. But I'm only fifteen miles from them. Just something to look into.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*OMG! Maybe this is it! What's missing and why they have miscarried!?*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> Based off of Brownie's coat, it looks like she is copper deficient.
> 
> I'm sure TSC will get more minerals in soon.
> 
> Bose is selenium/e, it's only available through a vet.


I was just reading on Tennessee meat goats, and am wondering if this is what has been wrong with our goats? The article goes in telling about the deficiencies and possible stillbirths, abortions,... Being inside,...

This is what I was just reading:

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/seleniumdeficiency.html


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Definitely could be but can't say for 100% sure.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Selenium deficiency, copper, toxoplasmosis or some combination of factors?*



ksalvagno said:


> Definitely could be but can't say for 100% sure.


No, unfortunately we may never know exactly, and each could have been for different reasons...

Regardless, it is much clearer now that some things we thought we knew well---lots of learning!

So grateful for learning all we have through this forum, and the helpful suggestions in getting the remainder on track to a better future-hopefully!!!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

ksalvagno said:


> Definitely could be but can't say for 100% sure.


VITAMIN AND MINERAL DEFICIENCIES IN GOATS

True, and the more I read about goats, YIKES! So, on this A&B ranch website, it talks about the levels of selenium and the complications the lack of them can have...

I did search the US Governments data, and the area all of our hay has been grown in, and of course it is deficient...ugh,...anyhow... I copied and pasted here the info from that site, for any who are also following this thread...

More research for us, but certainly our levels are low and perhaps we need to consider testing blood perhaps, and research how to be supplementing asap,...

"Proper vitamin and mineral levels are essential to the good health of goats. Although no single mineral can be singled out as more important than others, copper, zinc, and selenium levels are especially critical. The interaction of minerals is astoundingly complex. The most difficult task in raising goats is getting nutrition right, and vitamins and minerals are key. Most producers are not knowledgeable enough to formulate their own feed ration with appropriate levels of minerals and vitamins included. Achieving this is a complex task that is best left to a trained goat nutritionist.

Selenium: Major portions of the United States have soils that are deficient in selenium. Selenium deficiency is widespread in most of the eastern coast of the U.S., into the Great Lakes area, and throughout the northwestern part of this country. Plants grown in these soils are selenium deficient and therefore cannot provide adequate selenium to the goats that eat them.

Selenium deficiency, like Vitamin E deficiency, can cause white muscle disease (nutritional muscular dystrophy), causing the goat to have difficulty controlling its muscles. Newborns with weak rear legs may be selenium-deficient. Kids may be too weak to nurse their dams. Pneumonia may result from weakness in muscles that control breathing.

Producers raising goats in areas having selenium-deficient soil must make sure that this mineral is added to feed. Many producers give BoSe injections to newborn kids, as well as to adult goats. BoSe is a vet prescription item. Contact the local county extension agent or your veterinarian for information on your particular area or google 'selenium levels United States' for data..."


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Sooo... What has been working for me so far is to copper bolus every 3-4 months (but I have iron in my water, which cancels out copper. Without the iron in the water I'd probably bolus every six months) then a small dose of selenium/e gel every month. This is on top of manna pro minerals available free choice and feeding noble goat feed, alfalfa pellets, and BOSS. Then add on top of that checking their lids daily, stool checks daily, adding acv in their water daily.... Anyways, that's my routine. If that helps.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Feed and daily health check routines for goats*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> Sooo... What has been working for me so far is to copper bolus every 3-4 months (but I have iron in my water, which cancels out copper. Without the iron in the water I'd probably bolus every six months) then a small dose of selenium/e gel every month. This is on top of manna pro minerals available free choice and feeding noble goat feed, alfalfa pellets, and BOSS. Then add on top of that checking their lids daily, stool checks daily, adding acv in their water daily.... Anyways, that's my routine. If that helps.


Fabulous care and attention given to your goats! Is your region selenium deficient? We have just found out ours is, and so much more to learn! Do you also feed hay?

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Almost everywhere is selenium and copper deficient, the few people I've seen that claim their land isn't deficient have deficient looking goats. We do offer Bermuda mix hay free choice, but they hardly ever touch it, they'd rather browse. This fall we'll have alfalfa hay and also chaffhaye for the milking girls.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Deficiencies*

Awesome! Right now he is taking in a sample of the newest alfalfa hay we purchased, which is much better than what we had before!

I like the BOSS, and want to see if we can get that added into our feed-or what we end up changing our mix too! Gosh, a goat nutritionalist! Yikes, as someone else said on here-so complicated! Plus in the small community his farm is in am thinking it will be challenging to find such a qualified person!?!

Our coats certainly need work!


----------



## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Yep, rough coats! She is one who sadly miscarried! No surprise now, the more we have learned...my heart is broken thinking about it. Hoping Briwnie has success, I am so hoping!!!except am expecting a kid with some brown fur!


----------



## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

You are learning and taking the steps to make your girls better. That is progress. You are a good goat owner and it's only going to get better from here on.


----------



## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

sassykat6181 said:


> You are learning and taking the steps to make your girls better. That is progress. You are a good goat owner and it's only going to get better from here on.


For sure! You really put a lot into their diets-I was surprised how dull their coats looked after reading everything you do! :nothing to add:The care you give them sounds way above average. How long have you had them & are they all from the same place? Maybe they were already deficient when you got them. The breeder I got my goats from only gave them hay, browse & a little oats-I don't know about minerals but the feed store says CA has plenty of copper in the soil. Their coats were a bit dull when I got them & I thought it was the BOSS & corn oil that made them nice & smooth & shiny (& quickly too) but maybe it was the minerals. Who knows. How can this be so complicated?? A good percentage of the people (worldwide) who raise goats are probably illiterate & surely have no access to premixed minerals, boluses & selenium injections, etc. My brain is melting again.:whatgoat:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

catharina said:


> -I don't know about minerals but the feed store says CA has plenty of copper in the soil.


I definitely would not be believing the feed store guy. Feeding all animals including humans is a lot more difficult because soil all over the world is so depleted in minerals and vitamins. Our food contains about a third of the minerals and vitamins from the 30's.


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## Olliehaven (Jan 25, 2016)

ksalvagno said:


> I definitely would not be believing the feed store guy. Feeding all animals including humans is a lot more difficult because soil all over the world is so depleted in minerals and vitamins. Our food contains about a third of the minerals and vitamins from the 30's.


That's so sad to read. Some days I just want to go back in time to when the world was healthier.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

catharina said:


> Now I'm REALLY freaking out about minerals!! Too many numbers melt my brain! I guess I will try to copy all that down on paper for the next trip to the feed store. Do you think the copper boluses are needed if they get copper in their goat chow pellets & salt mineral block?
> 
> Also in a quandary now about the baking soda-they say it keeps them from getting bloat & scours & stuff. I'd never heard anything against it till now. But if it doesn't help them I am wasting money.


My brain melted a long time ago on this topic. I'm in Northern California, but that is a large region and the mineral content of the soil varies considerably from place to place.

Because my goats get alfalfa in their diet, I mainly use Sweet Lix Dairy Magnum on the advice of the vet and a breeder. (It has a lower calcium to phosphorus ratio than Meat Maker because alfalfa provides more calcium than pasture/ browse usually does.) Had a bit of a hard time finding it near me at first and had to special order it. I also ordered Cargill's Right Now Onyx (for the copper) based on recommendations here, but the goats don't eat much of that. I still do BO-SE and give copper when the goats look like they need it.

Reading the information on the companies' web sites was helpful to me. You can see how Cargill accounts for the varying amounts of minerals in the animals' diets depending on seasonal and regional differences. It could be that you would need to give different minerals at different times. I am open to suggestions because it seems to be an art or a juggling act to balance all the vitamins and minerals.

http://www.cargill.com/feed/species/beef-cattle/Products/MineralFAQs/index.jsp
http://www.sweetlix.com/products/C14/goats.aspx

Vicki


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> I definitely would not be believing the feed store guy. Feeding all animals including humans is a lot more difficult because soil all over the world is so depleted in minerals and vitamins. Our food contains about a third of the minerals and vitamins from the 30's.


I would not believe the feed store guy either. I gave my CA goats copper boluses when they had fish tail and it cleared up.


----------



## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Complicated goats, diets, supplements, and kidding!*



catharina said:


> For sure! You really put a lot into their diets-I was surprised how dull their coats looked after reading everything you do! :nothing to add:The care you give them sounds way above average. How long have you had them & are they all from the same place? Maybe they were already deficient when you got them. The breeder I got my goats from only gave them hay, browse & a little oats-I don't know about minerals but the feed store says CA has plenty of copper in the soil. Their coats were a bit dull when I got them & I thought it was the BOSS & corn oil that made them nice & smooth & shiny (& quickly too) but maybe it was the minerals. Who knows. How can this be so complicated?? A good percentage of the people (worldwide) who raise goats are probably illiterate & surely have no access to premixed minerals, boluses & selenium injections, etc. My brain is melting again.:whatgoat:


I hear you! I am laughing, your brain is melting!!! I know the feeling!!! Mind you, many of the minerals and feed are changes we have recently made, and some we are evaluating and considering to improve the overall health of our herd!

Your question regarding them being deficient prior to our getting them is interesting and plausible as well! Our goats came from several different sources, and certainly the group who has been kidding and expected to kid yet came from a different farmer than those who currently are too young to kid this summer. The coats on the kidding group are by far the worst!

However, I do feel our hay was deficient, but the new is and will be much better!


----------



## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Miscarriage causes, the buck?*



sassykat6181 said:


> You are learning and taking the steps to make your girls better. That is progress. You are a good goat owner and it's only going to get better from here on.


We are trying, and hoping for better health and lives for the goats! They are very sweet, (sassy), animals!

However, I am finding this all so interesting, as the vet seems somewhat conVinced that the issue is with our buck. The vet is scheduled to come the first part of next week to check our goat that miscarried, and run some tests-(which not sure precisely what tests), but he told us that he thinks likely the issue is with the buck.

Has anyone else ever found this to be the case? 
I have not found anything that really supports that a problem with the buck causes miscarriage.

Our buck came from a different breeder and is a boer goat.

If anything that is flawed in him is that he too could lack or be deficient in copper, selenium, or something else? His coat is actually much healthier appearing.

Any thoughts from any of you?


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

The only thing I can think of that would come from the buck would be chlamydia.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

The photo of our buck, 2X4, unfortunately is a bit dated! He was pretty young yet in the photo I have available. However, he is the one I refer to, and likely the one who bred all of our does who were bred. We did have Hillbilly in after we took 2by out, so possibly Brownie and two other goats could have been bred by Hillbilly.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Well if either of the bucks had chlamydia, it is an STD and causes miscarriages.... So it's something he could check out. Idk what else he'd be checking that pertains to the bucks though.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Chlamydia from buck*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> The only thing I can think of that would come from the buck would be chlamydia.


Well, maybe these are dumb questions, but would this cause miscarriages in the does if he had it? Would he still have it?

Thank you for your response.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

He would still have it and the does would still have. You have to treat to get rid of it.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Test for Chlamydia*



ksalvagno said:


> He would still have it and the does would still have. You have to treat to get rid of it.


Great! We will be sure he tests them for it! Both bucks and the does. Would the vet also treat those that are pregnant?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

A few photos of Brownie tonight, unfortunately not overly clear, but can see rough coat on her as well.

If bred by 2x4 she is due now, if by Hillbilly, then she would not be due for a week or so!?! So, unsure on her due date, & concerned due to all the issues we have had! Ugh...


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Another


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Her poor coat


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

She looks like she's shedding her undercoat. Mine are too--they look so ratty. I brush & comb & the next day there's more. Your goats look like they have really nice accommodations. They must be happy critters.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Her udder needs to fill more. She looks a bit thin from the pics.
Can you get a fecal for worms and cocci? Check her inner lower eyelid coloring, is is pale pink, white or a good dark pink?

Do they get free choice loose salt and minerals?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

toth boer goats said:


> Her udder needs to fill more. She looks a bit thin from the pics.
> Can you get a fecal for worms and cocci? Check her inner lower eyelid coloring, is is pale pink, white or a good dark pink?
> 
> Do they get free choice loose salt and minerals?


The guys said they are very full today!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Eyes


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Her eyes


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Eyes


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

You need to pull the lid down. If you gently push the eye in and then pull down, you can see better. I don't know if this will upload in a high enough quality, but it explains how to do it.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Eye check*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> You need to pull the lid down. If you gently push the eye in and then pull down, you can see better. I don't know if this will upload in a high enough quality, but it explains how to do it.


What is the link?


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I didn't post a link, I posted a picture


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Here is the link to that. 
http://www.agriview.com/famacha-score-card/image_b8a3a6d6-8dca-5263-9ec1-66aab6111060.html

Here is a video on how to check inner lower eyelid coloring.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> Here is the link to that.
> http://www.agriview.com/famacha-score-card/image_b8a3a6d6-8dca-5263-9ec1-66aab6111060.html
> 
> Here is a video on how to check inner lower eyelid coloring.


Oh, haha!!! I didn't realize she was asking for a link, I thought my pic was missing. Lol!!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Anemia and deworming*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> Oh, haha!!! I didn't realize she was asking for a link, I thought my pic was missing. Lol!!


Thank you! I didn't know anything about this


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Video and scoring-determining need to treat!*



toth boer goats said:


> Here is the link to that.
> http://www.agriview.com/famacha-score-card/image_b8a3a6d6-8dca-5263-9ec1-66aab6111060.html
> 
> Here is a video on how to check inner lower eyelid coloring.


Great! Very helpful, the video makes it seem so much easier!

Thank you-photos uploaded were taken by the guys earlier today -tomorrow I hope to see her for myself!

Hoping she is well enough to give birth, just crossing my fingers and saying an extra prayer tonight!
:dazed::lovey::birthday:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Free choice minerals and thin pregnant doe*



toth boer goats said:


> Her udder needs to fill more. She looks a bit thin from the pics.
> Can you get a fecal for worms and cocci? Check her inner lower eyelid coloring, is is pale pink, white or a good dark pink?
> 
> Do they get free choice loose salt and minerals?


Yes, we have switched her to the manna pro goat vitamins, and she does eat them.

We drenched the other does for worms after they gave birth within 24 hours.

She does seem thin, but her kid seems to be lower as of last night.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Ratty fur, feed, and minerals*



catharina said:


> She looks like she's shedding her undercoat. Mine are too--they look so ratty. I brush & comb & the next day there's more. Your goats look like they have really nice accommodations. They must be happy critters.


After reading, posting, and learning more on here, I sense her coat is so rough due to inadequate minerals and feed. I have been evaluating and adjusting this as best we are able.

We did start them on the Manna Pro goat minerals, and I did order more already as they like it!

They do have great accommodations! The guys know how to build great pens!

Yesterday, they got our lambs outside for their first time! This was quite exciting! The goats can go out, but we are keeping Brownie, who seems very close now and two others who might be bred in the pens.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Nice digs! Make sure your water buckets are high enough that kids can't fall in


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sounds like you have a good plan.

Check her inner lower eyelid coloring to make sure she isn't anemic. If she is, she will need treatment sooner.

I agree with the buckets, a kid can fall in and not be strong enough to get out. 

They are eating a lot of the minerals because their bodies need them badly. They will eventually slow down when they know they have enough, then will go lick from it as needed and level out.

Very nice setup indeed. 

If the weather is good and I am there to watch a goat who is getting closer, but yet not showing clear signs yet. I will allow them out with the others. They will be less stressed that way. If they do happen to kid, I allow that and may bring them into their pen or leave them out for a while if the weather is great. And the other goats are not bothering them. Either way I ensure the kids get colostrum as soon as possible. If the weather is a bit cool, they go in as soon as she is finished kidding.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Safety first!*



sassykat6181 said:


> Nice digs! Make sure your water buckets are high enough that kids can't fall in


Thank you! He did move them, someone else said the same thing right after we completed them!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Lower eyelid check & minerals*



toth boer goats said:


> Sounds like you have a good plan.
> 
> Check her inner lower eyelid coloring to make sure she isn't anemic. If she is, she will need treatment sooner.
> 
> ...


I will check her eyelids today, I watched the video on how to... So, will check and go from there.

I know, not going outside...ugh! Great suggestions, but think he is keeping them in as one bullies and is very pushy, so doesn't want her to get pushed. The vet felt one of our does had a miscarriage due to just that.(though, no authentic conclusion on why for her). But, do know of the possibility, especially based on the pushy goat in the herd.

I agree, the goats had mineral deficiencies, and so relieved to have them accept the more balanced minerals we gave them! They need them!

He also gave her some power punch yesterday.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I definitely agree that your goats need copper bolusing and selenium....seems like you are trying very hard to fix the issues! That would be a good start.I would for sure test for chlamydia and if you have not dewormed, I'd do that and cocci treatment too.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Some goats can be mean and slam too hard. I had that happen this year and the doe aborted shortly after the hit. 
If I have a bully I separate them at night so there is no hard hits and possible miscarriage. It is sad when that happens. So try to prevent it, by making a decent kidding pen.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Brownie today! Checking eyes too!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Checking eyelids and drenching pregnant does*



toth boer goats said:


> Here is the link to that.
> http://www.agriview.com/famacha-score-card/image_b8a3a6d6-8dca-5263-9ec1-66aab6111060.html
> 
> Here is a video on how to check inner lower eyelid coloring.


So, we got most of the goats eyes checked out! A few more to go, but a great start on ones we are most concerned about at this moment. This was a great suggestion, and one to continue and record. We took the color from the computers color, and ranked them as close as we could.

So our doe who is most close to delivering, Brownie, along with 2 others were between a 3-4 meaning borderline to dose. So, if Brownie is due in days to a week, is it safe to drench her? We have routinely drenched them after giving birth, but I know he is concerned for her safety of using a drench on her right before! He uses the sheep drench on his goats.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Copper bolus and selenium, plus cocci*



NyGoatMom said:


> I definitely agree that your goats need copper bolusing and selenium....seems like you are trying very hard to fix the issues! That would be a good start.I would for sure test for chlamydia and if you have not dewormed, I'd do that and cocci treatment too.


We are trying to understand the levels of all of this. The bolus, and all... It has been quite overwhelming, to say the least! However, step by step....!

We are awaiting the results of our hay testing, and also the results from the vet that were taken on two of our goats. He took blood samples on them....waiting....


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

If you think she's due so soon, then I would personally wait until she kids. However, to my untrained eye she looks like she still has time, her udder doesn't look that full to me... But they can and will surprise you!


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## jaimn (May 16, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> Here is the link to that.
> http://www.agriview.com/famacha-score-card/image_b8a3a6d6-8dca-5263-9ec1-66aab6111060.html
> 
> Here is a video on how to check inner lower eyelid coloring.


I wonder how to find out about FAMACHA classes? That would be so helpful! Thanks for posting


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Not sure where they are.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I googled famacha training and found an online program and also some listings for different states. Not sure where you are located

http://web.uri.edu/sheepngoat/famacha/


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Identifying parasites. And classes*



sassykat6181 said:


> I googled famacha training and found an online program and also some listings for different states. Not sure where you are located
> 
> http://web.uri.edu/sheepngoat/famacha/


I just found this info on classes
http://www.wormx.info/#!workshops/c4mk


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Online certification link-I haven't done this, but posting this info in the event it helps

http://web.uri.edu/sheepngoat/famacha/


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## jaimn (May 16, 2015)

*FAMACHA classes*

Thanks for the FAMACHA class links. I googled it too, and found some online, and some in class. It would be helpful to have that "muscle memory" for checking.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Hi!

I was curious about the anemia. Can you give an iron supplement if they're really anemic, especially if you can't worm them right away due to kidding? Even after the worms are dead wouldn't it take a while for the goat to get back to normal? Having had anemia myself (not due to worms!!) the doctor told me it's almost impossible to get enough iron from food alone to bring the levels back up to normal. Can you just crush up a human iron pill & put it in their food if you want to supplement to speed recovery? Or could that harm them? I know human children have died as a result of getting into a bottle of iron pills.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Iron is toxic in large doses so you do have to be careful. Iron is pretty plentiful in soil/water so it's not something goats normally need supplemented. If they're anemic it's actually better to give b complex IMO, it helps them replenish their blood cells without depleting copper like iron does, and no risk of overdose since they urinate out the excess.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

catharina said:


> Hi!
> 
> I was curious about the anemia. Can you give an iron supplement if they're really anemic, especially if you can't worm them right away due to kidding? Even after the worms are dead wouldn't it take a while for the goat to get back to normal? Having had anemia myself (not due to worms!!) the doctor told me it's almost impossible to get enough iron from food alone to bring the levels back up to normal. Can you just crush up a human iron pill & put it in their food if you want to supplement to speed recovery? Or could that harm them? I know human children have died as a result of getting into a bottle of iron pills.


If they are really anemic, I would treat for what is ailing them, such as worms ect ASAP, right then, never wait and also start iron supplement. Again, never wait if the goats are super anemic or getting to a critical point. With anemic goats, it is best to give a SQ injection of regular Ivomec cattle Inj. 1 cc per 40 lbs. Do not give it orally, you may cause too much bleed out, the goat may die.

Start an iron supplement, they do have iron shots but you have to be very careful giving it. Red cell, a horse product is a good one, OTC, give at a rate of 6 cc per 100 lbs for one week. Always though, moderate the coloring, if it does begin to get closer to normal sooner, stop the iron. moderate. If it is still light in color, continue the 1 weeks time period, as I mentioned 1 x a day, then it is 1 x a week until the coloring is closer to normal. You do not want to overdose iron.

Feed some alfalfa hay. Give fortified vit B complex SQ for a while, to help rebuild blood cells.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Thanks both of you!! The goat I have in mind has been on monthly wormer 2 months now but her eyelid color is just so-so. She just isn't coming back from having twins 3 months ago. Power Punch has B vitamins in it & I still have some-I just need something irresistible to mix it with. Any ideas? I'll also look for the horse iron.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Have you done a fecal to verify that you're treating the right worms? It does take a long time for blood cells to build back up. What are you treating with and how much/often?


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I do need to do that. I'm calling the vet on Monday. I hope he doesn't want to charge me for a visit. He's the only one around who does goats & he's not cheap.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Fecal and right wormer*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> Have you done a fecal to verify that you're treating the right worms? It does take a long time for blood cells to build back up. What are you treating with and how much/often?


Interesting, I don't know our vet ever said what kind of parasite our goats had? Is that the normal protocol, to report the type of parasite present?

What if the med or drench given was too little for the size of the animal? Obvious answer perhaps, but asking as unsure on dosing .

We are using the sheep drench but on our goats. We have seen mixed ideas on the amount to give goats of the sheep. From being the same as the sheep to being 3 times more needed for goats.

Unsure how much to give?


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## BorderKelpie (Mar 27, 2016)

I think I have learned more from this thread than from any other researching I've done. 

I am sorry you've had such sad losses, odieclark, but by posting your experiences and with all the wonderful replies, you guys may have saved me and many others from the same heartache and expense. I want to thank you all for that. 

Also, weird thought as for making the dewormer more palatable for your goats. When I have a litter of pups and we deworm, I mix a little Tang powder in the dewormer because, apparently fenbendazole tastes wicked. lol When I add just enough Tang to add a little color, the pups snarf it right up. I don't know if that would help with your goats, but it works here for puppies. 

Best wishes for Brownine!


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

You definitely need to know what type of worm you are treating for. Wormers are specific. Also you want to treat 10 days apart for 3 times, not just one a month


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Losses and treatment for parasites*



BorderKelpie said:


> I think I have learned more from this thread than from any other researching I've done.
> 
> I am sorry you've had such sad losses, odieclark, but by posting your experiences and with all the wonderful replies, you guys may have saved me and many others from the same heartache and expense. I want to thank you all for that.
> 
> ...


Dear border kelpie

Thanks for letting me know that some of our difficulties and heartaches may have helped you, that's a relief! Certainly, after going through all we have, ...well, I wouldn't want to wish bad luck, or any choices made, at any animals expense!... I must confess, that typing some of the things I have, posting some super sad and graphic pictures, is very difficult for me to do. (To put it briefly!):sad:

We are still waiting on Brownie, and we must have calculated her breeding dates inaccurately, as she just keeps getting bigger! However, very worried, and praying for the best! Thanks for the good wishes!:hi5:

We moved her water much higher now too!

Tang, haha! Yet another possible use! Just like the astronauts use to drink!:slapfloor:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Type of worm*



sassykat6181 said:


> You definitely need to know what type of worm you are treating for. Wormers are specific. Also you want to treat 10 days apart for 3 times, not just one a month


Thanks! Need to get that vet report!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

BorderKelpie said:


> I think I have learned more from this thread than from any other researching I've done.
> 
> I am sorry you've had such sad losses, odieclark, but by posting your experiences and with all the wonderful replies, you guys may have saved me and many others from the same heartache and expense. I want to thank you all for that.
> 
> ...


 Always glad to help, that is what we are here for.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*When is she due?!?*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> If you think she's due so soon, then I would personally wait until she kids. However, to my untrained eye she looks like she still has time, her udder doesn't look that full to me... But they can and will surprise you!


Well, we thought she was due already, but, past her due date!

I just read that someone had a goat go very late, like 16 days!!! Yikes, never sure precisely, but!?!

Anyhow, he is reluctant to drench her, as we believe she is, "close..."

This is the photo he took earlier this evening. Any guesses? ( I feel like we could make a contest or best guess is the winner of a new goat kid, or something!)


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

deerbunnyfarm said:


> Have you done a fecal to verify that you're treating the right worms? It does take a long time for blood cells to build back up. What are you treating with and how much/often?


I will call the vet about a fecal Monday.

I started using a monthly type wormer 2 months ago because one of my does, Tina, just looked kind of worn out & rough & thin. She had twins in February & is still nursing 1. The wormer has Morantel Tartrate in it, also copper & other nutrients. It is supposed to kill the worms that FAMACHA tests for. Her eyelid color today is Borderline or slightly better on the FAMACHA chart. If anything, I probably overestimated her weight for dosing.

Using the dose chart on the bag & her weight estimated at 65-70 pounds, I think I gave her about 5 ounces of the product, which contains .88 grams of the morantel per pound (.194%), 2 times a month apart. The last time was about 2 weeks ago. I wormed the other 3 goats too. I also increased her feed at that time (organic dairy pellets, BOSS, & corn oil--hay & usually browse is always available, & I just switched from mineral salt block back to loose minerals)

She is still thinner than the other goats, & not smooth & shiny like them. Initially her hair was kind of thin too but that looks a little better now at least. I looked at her coat very closely today & realized all the hairs are curled backward, pointing to her head. Really weird. Her energy level is good, her personality is the same, her appetite is excellent, & she has not lost her "top doe" herd status. She is 2 or 3 years old I think. She has come into heat once since kidding, a couple weeks ago. I'm starting to worry that I have not responded strongly enough to whatever is going on with her because she seems to feel just fine. I thought she just needed more time after pregnancy & kidding. Yesterday I started giving her a little of the liquid iron supplement plus Power Punch & I bought her kale, spinach, dried black beans & lentils for iron today. Those are some good vegetarian iron sources for humans-our family is vegetarian.

I feel like I'm hi-jacking this 2 or more? thread-sorry! Hearing about all the problems he is having despite giving his goats (in my opinion) better than average care, has made me start to worry & look more closely at mine! What do you think?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Dosing and kidding*



catharina said:


> I will call the vet about a fecal Monday.
> 
> I started using a monthly type wormer 2 months ago because one of my does, Tina, just looked kind of worn out & rough & thin. She had twins in February & is still nursing 1. The wormer has Morantel Tartrate in it, also copper & other nutrients. It is supposed to kill the worms that FAMACHA tests for. Her eyelid color today is Borderline or slightly better on the FAMACHA chart. If anything, I probably overestimated her weight for dosing.
> 
> ...


It is so great to hear and learn from others, this is great!

Perhaps she is dealing with a different type of worm, or parasite that the product you are using doesn't treat? We are still waiting for the vets report!?! I am finding this a very long time to WAIT! Wednesday and it is now Sunday? Is this a normal time to wait? I feel this is much too long!

We are still waiting on Brownie, and can't help but being very nervous! What do you think about her?

I believe you said you use the power punch on your goats, but that could perk her up? How often have you or do you give it? Brownie Loves power punch! I think she thinks she is getting kool-aid or something!:dancedgi:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It only takes a few minutes for a vet to do a fecal sample. If they are busy maybe a day or two to get to it.
I would call them and ask if it has been done. Sometimes too, they get too busy to call you back for the results. 
Check in with them.

Power punch is:
30cc per 100 lbs
15 per 50 lbs
7.5 per 25lbs
Label states no more than 3 times in a day. 
Because it has Propylene Glycol in it, it can burn the throat, and not good for long term illness.
Giving as needed is best, but if you have a pretty ill goat, giving it for a few days or longer can be done.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Hi Odie!

I had a little Power Punch left over from when my buck got sick from eating something. I only had about 2 doses left so I gave her that. The propolene glycol is strange--isn't that antifreeze or something? Now I am giving her a little iron & vitamins & waiting to call the vet tomorrow about getting a fecal. I gave her some kale, lentils, & black beans to try to get her eyelids a darker pink. They all get a little molasses here & there for the iron & a treat. Different brands have hugely different amounts of iron for some reason. I have one with 10% DV. I can't tell if the P.P. helped her since she doesn't look or act sick, & improvement in coat or weight will naturally take a while. I also couldn't tell if it helped my buck because I was doing a lot of other things too. He did get better really quickly from what could have turned into a life-threatening situation if it went on too long. I guess he got the P.P. for 2 or 3 days also.

I forgot if your goats had pale eyelids--is that why you're worming? Are you doing anything specifically for anemia if that's the case?

You were concerned that the cold may have been a factor in the loss of the kids. Is it warmer there now? I'll keep my fingers crossed for you & Brownie--I hope you'll get lucky & be there for the kidding! Somewhere I saw something about reviving a newborn who is not breathing but I don't know where--maybe the Goat-Link?


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## Rise_and_Shine_Ranch (May 16, 2015)

Wow, what an informative thread! Thanks everyone!



catharina said:


> The propolene glycol is strange--isn't that antifreeze or something?
> 
> I forgot if your goats had pale eyelids--is that why you're worming? Are you doing anything specifically for anemia if that's the case?





toth boer goats said:


> Because it has Propylene Glycol in it, it can burn the throat, and not good for long term illness.
> Giving as needed is best, but if you have a pretty ill goat, giving it for a few days or longer can be done.


Propylene glycol(PG) won't burn the throat. Its water soluble, odorless and tasteless. It might be a different ingredient that causes the burning? PG is used in just about every product these days. From toothpaste, to lotions, to snack foods. It was put in antifreeze to replace ethylene glycol that was killing animals that were lapping it up. It's a non-toxic alternative, used in meds too.

You worm goats to rid them of their worm load or parasites that are living in their body. The worms cause the anemia, by getting rid of the worms you are treating whats causing the anemia. You will sometimes give an iron supplement to a really anaemic goat. The pale eyelids are an indicator of anemia.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Routes of Entry: Absorbed through skin. Eye contact.
Toxicity to Animals: Not available
Chronic Effects on Humans: May cause damage to the following organs: central nervous system (CNS).
Other Toxic Effects on Humans:
Hazardous in case of ingestion. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant, permeator), of inhalation.
Special Remarks on Toxicity to Animals: Not available.
Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans:
May affect genetic material (mutagenic). May cause adverse reproductive effects and birth defects (teratogenic) based on
animal test data.
Special Remarks on other Toxic Effects on Humans:
Acute Potential Health Effects: Skin: May cause mild skin irritation. It may be absorbed through the skin and cause systemic
effects similar to those of ingestion. Eyes: May cause mild eye irritation with some immediate, transitory stinging, lacrimation,
blepharospasm, and mild transient conjunctival hyperemia. There is no residual discomfort or injury once it is washed
away. Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. Ingestion: It may cause gastrointestinal tract irritation. It may affect
behavior/central nervous system(CNS depression, general anesthetic, convulsions, seizures, somnolence, stupor, muscle
contraction or spasticity, coma), brain (changes in surface EEG), metabolism, blood (intravascular hemolysis, white blood
cells - decreased neutrophil function), respiration (respiratory stimulation, chronic pulmonary edema, cyanosis), cardiovascular
system(hypotension, bradycardia, arrhythmias, cardiac arrest), endocrine system (hypoglycemia), urinary system (kidneys),
and liver. Chronic Potential Health Effects: Skin: Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause allergic contact dermatitis.
Ingestion: Prolonged or repeated ingestion may cause hyperglycemia and may affect behavior/CNS (symptoms similar to that
of acute ingestion). Inhalation: Prolonged or repeated inhalation may affect behavior/CNS (with symptoms similar to ingestion),
and spleen


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## Rise_and_Shine_Ranch (May 16, 2015)

We all have our own opinions. I have come to think that PG is relatively safe. If any of you don't, that's okay. We all have to look at the facts and make up our own mind. :book:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*What does this mean?*



goathiker said:


> Routes of Entry: Absorbed through skin. Eye contact.
> Toxicity to Animals: Not available
> Chronic Effects on Humans: May cause damage to the following organs: central nervous system (CNS).
> Other Toxic Effects on Humans:
> ...


What are you referring to in this list of reactions? I feel lost, or maybe I am too wet coming in out of the rain and lost track of something I read earlier?!?:hammer:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Goat Hiker-

Is this what you are referring to, the PG? Propylene glycol(PG)


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yep, that is off the Material Safety Data Sheet for Propylene Glycol.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

We are going to start by dosing our pregnant Brownie, and two others who could also be expecting, but certainly seem deficient on copper and minerals.... a few questions yet

Copper Bolus - I have Goat Copper Bolus for kids, from Ultra Cruz company, at 2g per unit. Do, I give the does 1 each, or 2, as they are over 40 pounds?

Do I also need to give the Selenium + E gel, at the same time? (assuming I can get this locally, today or if I have to order it wait on the Copper?) dosing the gel at 2ml or 4ml?

What about Zinc? Is zinc a mineral I should also be giving them, or do I need to first run a test to determine if they need it?

We are offering them the mana pro goat minerals free choice and JUST got the results back on our hay composition, which I have to scan and/or get posted. It is better than the last hay we had!

Thank you for everything!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Feeding our goats and our new hay analysis*



ksalvagno said:


> What kind of hay.


These are the results from our new hay! We are hoping this one is better than our last, as the alfalfa content is higher.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

:whatgoatid they send you a copy in English too?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*It's all, "Greek," to me! Hay analysis!*



catharina said:


> :whatgoatid they send you a copy in English too?


I know! Honestly, the analysis is more detailed than I comprehend, for sure!

Happy it has some nutrtional value, though I don't know if that makes it better, but they eat it!

He is also giving it to his lambs.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'll read what I can for you...

The hay is 18.99% crude protein (that's pretty good for a mixed hay)
Of the 18.99% 70.92% is digested in the rumen and 29.08% is by-pass protein that is digested in the gut. 0.87% is Acid detergent fiber that is undigestible and 4.18 is what is left from other proteins after the protein, sugar, pectin, etc is taken out. This all means that the hay is really digestible for goats and overall somewhere around 14% digestible protein. (that's really really good)

The fiber in the hay contains 49% digestible fibers... Not bad at all they need whole fibers too.

28.87% free carbs (good good) and 1.55% fat. 

Relative forage quality at 128%... Not quite dairy hay but suitable for the purpose with some grain supplemented. 

Calcium phosphorous ratio at 5 to 1 allows for grain supplementation without additional alfalfa. 
If you mix whole grains though talk to me some more...

The rest is just minerals... All hay is deficient in minerals anymore...


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Brownie had twins today!!!


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Congrats!!!!


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## Luckthebuck234 (Jul 15, 2015)

That's awesome! Tell the mama good job!
Are they does or bucks?


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

How cute! I'm really glad this kidding went well! Were you there?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Brownie had TWINS!!!*

Yes, I was there for the birth! In fact, as I went to visit with Brownie in her birthing pen, and ask her how she was doing, I heard...woosh!!! Her water broke! So, of course I had to stay and assist as needed! So exciting!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Brownie's twins!*



Luckthebuck234 said:


> That's awesome! Tell the mama good job!
> Are they does or bucks?


Both bucks!

Considering the names of Chip and Chocolate!

Brownie, mama,
Hillbilly, is papa
Chocolate, all brown head
Chip the one with the white on forehead!

:hi5:


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## Luckthebuck234 (Jul 15, 2015)

Cute names! Love the theme, chocolate is the best!
Did you have to help?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Delivered!*



Luckthebuck234 said:


> Cute names! Love the theme, chocolate is the best!
> Did you have to help?


I felt so lucky to be there! Being right next to her when her water broke! Oh, my! So cool!

We may not have been needed, but have had some difficult situations and unlucky situations previously, ...long story, ...so, have said many prayers for Brownie and her success!

What we did do, was watch and observe...in between the two was a lag in time. We helped her dry the and clean both, though she helped, and also really worked with the second goat in nursing. He had a difficult time standing(very wobbly-normal?!)...-and wasn't as efficient at latching on. We worked with the first as well, but that went quicker than the second one.

It was only 40 degrees, so we wanted them dry. Also overnight, about the same.

They are inside, with two heat lights and a heating pad. The kids seemed to locate the heating pad!


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## Karen (Jun 22, 2010)

Good news all around! You know we will want pictures ....


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Twins!*

Chip
And
Chocolate

From Brownie. And Hillbilly!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

I must see if I can upload the little video!

We also had to tie little Chip's umbilical cord. It was so long and it was attracting some straw and ucky stuff!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Weight seemed light, is this low?

3 1/2 and 4 pounds?

Our single birth kid was 10 pounds at birth. I know singles are more, but-?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What breeds are the parents?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Breeds of parents*

Brownie is Brownie, and I assume she is a mutt or mix of something. She is thin,near, and many commented she looked thin, even while pregnant. However she is of decent height and body frame overall.

Hillbilly, the Father is boer, and good size.

Brownie seems about the same or taller overall than some of the boer goats I have seen, but I have only been close to about a dozen or so different boer goats, so am unsure if she is average or not?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

So it sounds like she is a full size goat. The weights on the kids is low. My Lamancha gave birth to around 7 lb twins. When I bred an Alpine mix to a Nigerian, I was getting around 5 lb kids.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Size of kids*



ksalvagno said:


> So it sounds like she is a full size goat. The weights on the kids is low. My Lamancha gave birth to around 7 lb twins. When I bred an Alpine mix to a Nigerian, I was getting around 5 lb kids.


I think they are small too, but perhaps because of the vitamin and mineral deficiencies earlier I am thinking. Will the kids grow ok?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Weights of twins*



ksalvagno said:


> So it sounds like she is a full size goat. The weights on the kids is low. My Lamancha gave birth to around 7 lb twins. When I bred an Alpine mix to a Nigerian, I was getting around 5 lb kids.


So, we took the weights of the twins today, as they were born on Wednesday and today Sunday they seem to be doing well! They are now 7, and 7.5 pounds, so they ar growing!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Not the best photo of Brownie, but Chocolate is nursing and Chip is further back! 

We started mama on "BIG GAIN". -the brand, for pregnant and lactating goats, of Goat feed-a pellet, and the first few days mixing it 50-50 with her other grain.

Hoping that helps her gain her weight back, as well and maintain the little ones! Also gave her some selenium and E gel, as did all the goats on that farm!

She also gets hay, and we added an extra water for her-which is way higher than the other one!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

They look good.


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