# Assisting kidding



## Luckthebuck234 (Jul 15, 2015)

Sooooo, last year all of my does had a record book kidding. Thank goodness because it was my first time. The only trouble was Heidi's second kid came out with one leg back but he slipped right out, no trouble there. Lately, I've heard of all of these terrifying stories of bad kidding, C-sections, dead kids and I'm getting nervous. I know mot of the time everything is perfectly fine but I feel I am a little under prepared if things go south:scratch:.....so here are my questions....

How long after a doe starts pushing should the kid be out?
When can the kid no longer breathe inside of the doe? (When do you need to hurry up and get it out so it can breathe.)
What do you use to clean up before having to go in? (I currently have betadine)
Do you wear gloves? and Does wearing gloves make it harder to grab the kids?
How far in should you go for NDs? 
How do you not tear the doe's cervix(?) when you go in?

Sorry for the lengthy post, worried goat mama here.:underchair:


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## Luckthebuck234 (Jul 15, 2015)

Oops I forgot..
What do you give a doe after kidding, if you had to assist?


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## emmaandoscar (Jan 20, 2013)

All good questions. I posted about the terrible first experience I just had with my doe (also a first time pregnancy) this past Thursday. It was awful. Lost both kids. Thankfully the vet was here and a couple experienced goat ladies I know. The vet used gloves and went in and had to pull the first kid (she was coming out backwards-back feet first) and later the other baby was in the right position, but was pulled as well. My doe had trouble right from the start. Second baby didn't survive because first baby was hung up. Second baby's umbilical cord had already been disconnected. This was a rough first experience and having witnessed it and been there, if it happened again, I still would not be sure what to do, or when to intervene. Also, I have learned that with having the mini goats--it is extremely difficult to get in there and manipulate those babies when they're mispositioned. Vet said if she had a third one in there and it was not positioned right and she couldn't push it up close enough to reach--he'd end up doing a c-section. Luckily, she only had two. Having to go through all that and end up with a c-section would have been the absolute worst first birthing experience ever. Only thing worse would be losing my doe too. Geez...what an ordeal. The second kid that was pulled was by one of the ladies--she had really small hands and she did not use gloves. Vet was against antibiotics, but most people that responded to my post said antibiotics in this situation was pretty much a MUST. My vet believes in only using antibiotics if absolutely necessary because he feels everyone uses them way too much--as prevention instead of when they actually need to so... then when your goat REALLY does need them, they are ineffective. Just like with people. Seems like every time you go to the doctor--they give you antibiotics. Seems like the miracle cure. Anyhow, I questioned him about that as I felt like she needed them, but I went along with what he said and how he wanted to treat her. I felt like he was the vet and he must know better than I. So far, Emma is doing good. Back to being more her ornery self and I'm hoping no infections develop. I sure hope our next kidding goes well. We have 3 more does due. I don't know if I can handle two bad kiddings in a row so I'm praying all goes well and we have a happy outcome. I think I need to experience way more bad kiddings in order to know what to do in the situations. I just don't want it to happen with my goats, would rather go watch and learn with someone else's goats. I'm not so attached then. Watched two kidding's last year...one ended good and one ended bad. I didn't cry for two days like I did with my own goat. I am so attached to them, and I really felt Emma's pain right along with her. I'm following this thread because I want to know the answers to your questions as well.  Thanks for posting them. Carol


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Don't stress. Your right most of the time it goes great, you just hear more of the bad because people are seeking advise. Those also seem to be the ones that we not involved take to heart. But ok here goes 
A half hour after the doe is REALLY pushing you should help. I personally just kinda keep putting a finger in and see what's going on. If I feel, let's say a nose only right there then I jump in no matter how long she has been pushing. I believe it's easier to fix a problem as soon as you can instead of having to go back and fix things......basically push the kid way back in and search for the front legs. 
Ok stop breathing. Once the cord is cut. Now funny story (kinda) that got me really thinking. Had a doe that I woke up to that was clearly in labor and had been for awhile. Hours after I tried getting the kids out I called the vet. By the time we got there this doe had been in labor for at least 8 hours, that's simply that I know of. He pulled the kid and threw him to the side. That little guy sneezed and started shaking his head. So point is don't totally rush it but get it out as you can.
Clean up, if I can just dish soap and warm water. If the doe needs me now I'm not running to the house to wash up.
Nope I don't wear gloves, I can't feel things very well when I do.....personal choice and issue lol
How far? As far as you need to to fish out kids. If checking for more kids I would say mid arm maybe. 
Not ripping anything. Get lube. Anything that makes you slippery will work. In a pinch I have used veggie oil when pulling kids just go easy, not rush to get things out. The only time I have torn a doe, and it wasn't me it was my brother  was when the head was off to the side a little and I told my brother to stop pulling so I could move the head over. He didn't listen and tore her. It wasn't bad, I was still livid but now she just looks funny back there.
Really the best advise I can give you is stay as calm as you can. If you need to stop and take a breath do it. Always know those kids need to come out or they are all dead. That last one is probably the best one that I have to give to myself when things hit the fan. I am so worried I'm going to harm the mother or kid but bottom line is it can't stay in there. Whatever is done or needs to be done will have a chance of a better outcome then giving up or not doing something.


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## Luckthebuck234 (Jul 15, 2015)

Carol,

Yes, I saw your thread too, that is one reason I posted it. I really hope your next kiddings are easy and you don't have any more problems. Thank you for your reply, it is helpful and I hope we can all be more prepared, so we are ready to assist our does. I lost kids last year, but not during birth. My doe got ketosis weeks before she was due and I did not know she had ketosis. She was breathing hard but I just thought she was in early labor, I ended up losing her and her kids as I found her the next morning. It was heartbreaking and I felt I could have done more, but I learned from the experience and now I know what ketosis looks like and I know what labor looks like. We all have those terrible experiences. Luckily for us, most kiddings are normal and we usually stress too much


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## Luckthebuck234 (Jul 15, 2015)

Jessica,
Thank you! I know I am probably stressing too much your right. I just wanted to know the answers to these questions..... just in case. Thanks again, thats very informative I feel better and more prepared.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I agree with 1/2 hour of hard pushing you should be seeing some part of a baby presenting. Though we're likely to "check" inside her vulva if we have any concerns at all.

I keep my nails short during kidding season "just in case".

I clean my hands with the same antibacterial wipies I use for cleaning udders during milking.

I do not wear gloves.

We've had several of nice, normal kiddings until last year. I had a very small Nigerian (40 pounds) and she had tangled twins that neither my daughter nor I could get out. So we took her to the vet... I was absolutely SHOCKED how much of her arm she got into that tiny goat - almost up to her elbow!! She was much more aggressive and patient than I had been. That's probably why she successfully got both those bucklings out alive!

Those little guys were stuck in there for about 3-4 hours. We thought the first one was dead, but he perked up with some brisk rubbing and after 3 tube feedings he was able to suck a bottle! You do have some time to work with, so don't panic. I think the truly hard part is when you come home to find they're in labor and you can't tell how long...

Of course, my poor little doe was quite sore after all that manhandling! My vet did give her one shot of a strong antibiotic and we gave her banamine shots as needed over the next couple of weeks.

When I have had milder interactions - ie, just grabbing legs that are right at the cervix, etc. - then I don't use antibiotics. Instead I give vitamin c 500mg 2 times a day for a week (1,000 mg for full sized does). And now I think I would also offer fresh garlic each day. However, if I go in far or have to keep repositioning, I feel safer giving antibiotics or using a uterine bolus.


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## Lisalisa89 (Oct 18, 2016)

I have been reading, and reading and reading and I know I will still never be fully prepared for my first kidding. I am pretty terrified especially since my goat is high risk being so darn small. She has been stretching the last couple of days and lost a tiny bit of mucus plug, but I've seen her lose that before a long time ago. Ligs are still hard as a rock so I just keep telling myself if her ligs are hard don't lose sleep but I even dream about this stinking goat lol


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## Luckthebuck234 (Jul 15, 2015)

Thank you groovyoldlady! And your poor doe! That must have been a traumatic experience for her..and you.

Lisalisa89 What kind of goat is she, and what does she weigh? I have a short stocky ND/Pygmy that is probably about 35 lbs and handled kidding like a pro. Also an ND under 40 lbs that does great too.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

emmaandoscar said:


> Vet was against antibiotics, but most people that responded to my post said antibiotics in this situation was pretty much a MUST. My vet believes in only using antibiotics if absolutely necessary because he feels everyone uses them way too much--as prevention instead of when they actually need to so... then when your goat REALLY does need them,


We don't automatically give antibiotics if we have to reach in and reposition a kid. I disagree with those who said that it was a must or something to be done as a matter of routine. I agree with your vet.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

IHEARTGOATS said:


> We don't automatically give antibiotics if we have to reach in and reposition a kid. I disagree with those who said that it was a must or something to be done as a matter of routine. I agree with your vet.


I too agree with this! I never push what I think since so many people automatically just start antibiotics, which is why I skipped that question lol. But I do not like giving antibiotics unless needed. So far (knock on wood) I have never had one become infected over me going in. Now I have had a doe that had very very dead kids in her that were half grown and I did give her uterine boluses. The kids were pretty nasty and had to have been in there for awhile so it wasn't my hand in there and a hour later she expelled her placenta and everything that I 'might' have placed in her.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

In my kidding box I like to keep clean towels, a bottle of iodine, a small cup of iodine (for dunking umbilical cords), lubricating jelly, twine, molasses, Nutri-Drench, Selenium/Vitamin E gel, probiotics, weak kid syringe, my favorite goat book with diagrams of common birthing malpresentations , and a printout I have with more pictures of the same thing in greater detail. I can't remember what else I keep in there since I haven't audited it since last spring. We always bring out a bucket of warm water which I pour some iodine in for scrubbing up if I have to assist. I also bring out a bucket of warm water with molasses in it for the doe. 

I nearly always help out a little even if the doe is doing alright on her own. As soon as I see feet presenting, I open the sac and start gently pulling down on the hooves in time with contractions to help ease the kid along. I'll usually feel up along the legs to make sure the head is on the knees where it should be. With the head back kid I knew something was wrong pretty quickly into labor because the doe was screaming and pushing really hard but nothing was presenting to the outside. I had to go in and find hooves and when I did there was no head to go with them. Basically, if the doe is pushing super hard and nothing is happening, it's time to reach in and have a feel. You don't want her to wear herself out straining against a kid that won't present. 

Another bad sign is stalled labor. We experienced our first one last year when a doe kidded triplets but then stopped after the first two. I thought she was finished (she looked fine and was eating), but when I bounced her belly I could feel another kid inside. We waited two hours and she would occasionally lie down, get up, and paw, but she wouldn't start labor. When I went in for a feel it turned out the kid was breech with his hind legs under his belly and his tail stuck in the birth canal. I had to reach down along his belly to bring the legs up. He was perfectly fine. His sac had been unbroken and his umbilical cord was intact so he had oxygen in the womb while he waited for someone to fetch him out. Had he been stuck in the birth canal instead of the womb, it's more likely his oxygen supply would have been cut off and we'd have lost him after so much time. Now that I know about interrupted labor I would not wait so long. The kid was in there for a good 3-4 hours after the first two were born. One hour between kids is the maximum, and usually it's more like 20-30 minutes. 

I use warm water with a little iodine to scrub up. I don't wear gloves and my fingernails are always short. If I think of it I scrub-brush under my fingernails and around my cuticles when I wash up before going out to help a doe starting labor. I have lubricant in my kidding box but so far I've not had to use it because we've never had a doe in labor so long she was dry when I went in. 

I don't know how far you can go in for ND's, but I've been in a bit past my elbow on a full-sized doe and it felt like I could go a lot further if necessary. There's a lot more room in there than I ever imagined before I felt inside. One thing to keep in mind is that even with miniature breeds, the doe has enough room in her birth canal for a kid to fit through. Even a really tiny kid is bigger around than your hand and wrist. The doe won't like something going the wrong way against her contractions, and her reflexes will try to push you back out, but be patient and gentle and you can ease your hand inside between contractions. I keep my hand shaped into a cone with the thumb tucked under out of the way when I ease it in. There's no reason why your hand should tear the cervix unless you're wearing a ring (definitely remove jewelry and watches before trying to help a doe!). A big kid could tear the doe on its way out if you pull too forcefully or if he starts kicking like a maniac. Sometimes we've had some minor surface tearing around the edge of the vulva with really big kids with broad shoulders, but nothing serious enough to need treatment. Remember to be patient and resist the urge to yank the kid out and get it over with. Ease it out with her contractions and don't be afraid to pause for a moment if mama needs a break from pushing.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Sorry I needed to have a meeting with a teacher so cut my reply short. I know your going to worry, we all do. Don't let that take away the fun in it. There is NOTHING wrong with asking these questions and thinking of worst case. In fact that is very responsible of you! If you have someone close by that you can call that has experience that will go far to ease your worries. Or if it's just a vet. Don't let that little doe stress you out to the point of brain tumors lol she will likely be the one that does great lol I had a very small doe I was worried about last year. I held her back but it was getting to the point of breed her or find her a new home. I was worried sick. She had twins on her own. I think she even knew I was stressed out and waited till I checked on her last to get down to business lol. Just keep a eye on her and keep up your reading!


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

*How long after a doe starts pushing should the kid be out?* 30 minutes max-just be sure that she's actually pushing instead of just having contractions.

*When can the kid no longer breathe inside of the doe?* That's hard to tell, but certainly when the cord gets pinched in the birth canal on the way out. That's why it's best to pull breach kids-the cord gets pinched but the kid can't breathe because his head is still in the doe.
*What do you use to clean up before having to go in? (I currently have betadine) *I use Super Lube from Premier 1 Supplies.

*Do you wear gloves? and Does wearing gloves make it harder to grab the kids?* No, and yes it does make the slippery kids harder to grab.

*How far in should you go for NDs?* As far as you need to to reach a kid.
How do you not tear the doe's cervix(?) when you go in? Go slow-she should be dilated and you should be fine. If she's not dilated you have a much bigger issue on your hands.

Goats I assist are treated no differently afterward than those that kid naturally unless necessary. Never give antibiotics routinely to any animal. FYI, I've assisted at least ten goats give birth and have never had to give antibiotics to any of those does. It's only within the last year or so that I see everyone recommending that everyone else do it.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I did not read all the replies but here goes;

A doe should not be in labor more than about a half hour & all kids should be out by then.
If doe has stalled labor or is screaming (FFs do not necessarily fit here because at times they can be quite dramatic in my experience)
you will need to assist. Stalled labor is definite sign of mal presentation.
I just wash up real good with no gloves or jewelry. 
I do not give antibiotics either unless there is expired kid who has been in there longer than it should or if I have been in & out of doe a couple of times.
The passing of afterbirth & cleaning out with normal discharging takes care of this.


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## Luckthebuck234 (Jul 15, 2015)

Wow, this is great! This is all very informative and interesting. I did not know that some people did not give antibiotics after assisting, that is good to know. I just thought it was one of those things. And garlic sounds like a great idea after kidding. I always like using a more natural approach.(if possible) Thank you everyone for your replies! I feel tons better now and more prepared.


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## emmaandoscar (Jan 20, 2013)

Yes!!!! Thank you all so much. I feel way better about the antibiotics now. I need that book or chart of all the kid positions one of you mentoned having in your birthing kit. Where did you find that at? I might need a giant poster of that to hang in the barn maternity ward wall!!!


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## Luckthebuck234 (Jul 15, 2015)

I'm so glad it was helpful to you too!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I am surprised with how many say they don't do the antibiotics as well. For years I have seen you went in start antibiotics. I have kept my mouth shut/ fingers off the keys for years now because I didn't want to start a argument but I am happy to see I am not the only one


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

How long after a doe starts pushing should the kid be out? I hear 30 minutes. I'm okay with that. If I see their water break, they better be pushing out a kid now, or I'm going in now.

When can the kid no longer breathe inside of the doe? (When do you need to hurry up and get it out so it can breathe.) I think it's reasonable to assume if the umbilical comes unattached, they need out. But how would you know? I've had it in my head that as long as the kid is still in the sack surrounded by fluid, the umbilical is probably still okay. But I've gone out to find a kids head poking out, almost dry, and the kid looking at me like "get me out!" I've also pulled lots of live kids out that were already out of the sack. I agree with whoever said kids coming out backward are at more of a risk.

What do you use to clean up before having to go in? (I currently have betadine) Do you wear gloves? and Does wearing gloves make it harder to grab the kids? If I'm going all the way in, I do wear an OB sleeve. The sleeve just came out of a sealed package, so it's very clean. I don't wash up in this circumstance. That's one of the reasons why I use a sleeve. To save time. If the doe is super nasty back there, I sometimes wash them up a little with chlorhexidine before I go in. If I'm just poking around trying to feel a head or grab a foot, I don't bother with gloves or washing. If I get in a big train wreck, I usually end up going in without a glove at some point. Yes, it's a little harder to get a grip with a sleeve/glove on. One trick I use is if I think I can pull on a foot (the head is there), I break the sack, peal it back of the foot and head and use a dry towel to grip the foot. (pull down toward the doe's hocks)

How far in should you go for NDs? Until you find a kid.

How do you not tear the doe's cervix(?) when you go in? Use a lot of lube. If you can get your hand in, it won't tear her.

Antibiotics I don't always give antibiotics if I go in. If the placenta slips out quickly and in pretty much one piece after they kid, I usually don't give antibiotics even if I went in. If the placenta starts coming out piece by shredded piece over several days, I do give antibiotics. If a doe is eating and drinking well, I don't give. If they won't eat and get a fever, I do.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Following


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## Lisalisa89 (Oct 18, 2016)

Luckthebuck234 said:


> Thank you groovyoldlady! And your poor doe! That must have been a traumatic experience for her..and you.
> 
> Lisalisa89 What kind of goat is she, and what does she weigh? I have a short stocky ND/Pygmy that is probably about 35 lbs and handled kidding like a pro. Also an ND under 40 lbs that does great too.


She is a ND/pygmy lol and weighed 30 pounds a couple weeks ago when I weighed her. She is short and stocky like shorter then I thought even pygmy's were suppose to be. She didn't look that small in pictures and when my husband went to pick her up he called me and he was like she is really small Lisa like really really small way smaller then ours. I was like okay and I still was not prepared for how tiny she was when I walked outside to see her lol and he let her out and she hauled butt we had to chase her down she was really skittsh. She is stocky though so I think bone width wise she will do okay but we will see. I have a vet appointment set up this week,


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## Luckthebuck234 (Jul 15, 2015)

She sounds cute, lol I was worried about my ND/Pymgmy doe her first freshening too but she was actualy so fast it surprised me. I would love to see a pic of her (hint, hint, cough, cough) :wink:


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

emmaandoscar said:


> Yes!!!! Thank you all so much. I feel way better about the antibiotics now. I need that book or chart of all the kid positions one of you mentoned having in your birthing kit. Where did you find that at? I might need a giant poster of that to hang in the barn maternity ward wall!!!


This is the book I keep in my kidding box: https://www.amazon.com/How-Raise-Goats-Carol-Amundson/dp/076033157X

It has an excellent description and photos of a normal birth with diagrams of how the kids are positioned in the womb before birth. It only has two malpresentation diagrams: breech and head only, but it's got a nice general tutorial on how to go in and assist if necessary. It's not detailed but it's reassuring, and I really like knowing what things _should_ look like.

The pages I printed out are these: 
http://questromtech.wixsite.com/jua.../2015/12/24/Goat-Labor-Birth-and-Kid-Position

Hopefully that link works. The original Gryphontor page where these were posted is no longer there. I stick these in the birthing section of my book so everything is in one convenient place.


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## emmaandoscar (Jan 20, 2013)

Thank you Damfino!! I made a big poster board to hang on my goatie maternity ward wall!!! It turned out great! I also ordered that book and a couple others to go a long with my other goat book. This thread is so full of information and I really appreciate the original poster and all the people that replied. Thank you all so much, Carol


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Following!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice by all.

Happy kidding, I know how worry can be, we all do it.


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