# Copper bolus question



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

What do the rods in the boluses you have used look like? The ones we used looked dark gray. We ordered our boluses from Ultra Cruz. Which we found out afterwords from Jill that they are a terrible company. We are seeing more fish tails now then before the bolus. The liver sample we sent in said we were high in iron even though we have no iron in our water or supplements and not enough still casing in our well to cause it. So wondering if maybe Ultra Cruz is putting iron rods in place of the copper rods... Kinda a conspiracy theory kinda thought process but...


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Here is a picture of mine...with a penny and dime for comparison. These are copasure cattle bolus.

I read from a semi-reliable source that a fish tail wasn't a good indicator of copper status??? So I am confused on that.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I use the copasure cattle ones as well, from jeffers, they look like the above, and they fix fishtail and rusting coats with mine.


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> What do the rods in the boluses you have used look like? The ones we used looked dark gray. We ordered our boluses from Ultra Cruz. Which we found out afterwords from Jill that they are a terrible company. We are seeing more fish tails now then before the bolus. The liver sample we sent in said we were high in iron even though we have no iron in our water or supplements and not enough still casing in our well to cause it. So wondering if maybe Ultra Cruz is putting iron rods in place of the copper rods... Kinda a conspiracy theory kinda thought process but...


I have an easy way to see what you have.

And it involves fire. Which is always awesome. It needs to be burned. The flame should be blue/green. If it isn't, then it isn't copper! It works for copper oxide, copper chloride, copper sulfate, etc.

Dissolving it in methanol (wood alcohol), then burning that will do the trick. The copper in the copper oxide rods we use for goats is Copper (II) oxide rather than Copper (I) oxide, which is red. 



.


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

Neato, Stacykins! I must try that. For the record, the contents look like the picture above, sort of like graphite or iron filings, and not like the copper I'm familiar with, looks like (peachy orange or light green through turquoise if oxidized). Will update shortly.


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

Goat_in_Himmel said:


> Neato, Stacykins! I must try that. For the record, the contents look like the picture above, sort of like graphite or iron filings, and not like the copper I'm familiar with, looks like (peachy orange or light green through turquoise if oxidized). Will update shortly.


Many copper compounds are indeed blue or green in their native form. Most of us think of copper sulfate or copper nitrate, which is that lovely azure color. Even copper chloride is a "Tiffany blue". Copper (I) oxide is the color of rust, though, and as we know from our copper boluses, Copper (II) oxide is kind of grey and dull, almost black.

Edit: Just be sure to stay safe when burning things! I don't want anyone to singe something/set themselves on fire, too!


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## Jasmar (Mar 28, 2015)

What is the problem with Ultra Cruz?


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## Twink90 (Dec 21, 2013)

I just got adult & kid copper bolus from Santa Cruz. They had great shipping, great price & great customer service. 
I to thought my copper looked like iron as it was copper colored. Now I want to try the fire test.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/39180/title/Antibody-Maker-Headed-to-Court/


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## Jasmar (Mar 28, 2015)

Ugh. Thanks for the link. If they don't do a thorough (well documented) job of cleaning up their act, I won't buy from them again.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Dave if you try this test please let us know what you find ?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Um...., you know when I got my first batch from Jeffers, I found I had no fish tails for about 4 months, and now I'm lucky if I get by with 2 months.... I thought it was our well water, but this started before we hooked up to the well again, so maybe that is what is wrong...;( I think I'll order some from Jeffers this week. Thanks for the thread Dave and for the article Jill


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Will let everyone know if I can find where to get some methanol (wood alcohol)


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> Will let everyone know if I can find where to get some methanol (wood alcohol)


If I can get my hands on some, I'll do it, too. I have copper boluses from Santa Cruz. Unfortunately, Copper (II) oxide is insoluable in ethanol, or else I'd use some everclear. I wonder if I could pop by the chemistry lab at my college, see if someone can part with some if I promise to scrub beakers. That, or mix some with sulfuric acid in the fume hood there, see if it makes copper sulfate.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

TDG-Farms said:


> Will let everyone know if I can find where to get some methanol (wood alcohol)


I haven't seen it myself, but I just read that they sell Methanol at Home Depot. That means Lowe's probably has it as well.


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

Yea but I think they sell it by the gallon or some big quantity like that. Unless someone has a use for the stuff, that is a lot of methanol to have on hand!


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Really anxious to hear the results, I also purchased a very large container from santa cruz and was planning on doing a routine bolusing this weekend.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I think I'm just going to buy some from Jeffers, and if the Santa Cruz ones are bad then I'll toss them, if not I'll use the rest of the container.... I have a feeling though that they are no good. I was wondering why they were much cheaper than elsewhere. I can't wait for your test either I would attempt to try it myself but I'm thinking me doing it would = house fire/explosion so I'll leave it to you


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Lstein said:


> Really anxious to hear the results, I also purchased a very large container from santa cruz and was planning on doing a routine bolusing this weekend.


Dont open it Levi , maybe you can return it if there is a problem&#8230;

Just a thought


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Following this thread , very anxious to see the results of this test too !

Thanks Stacykins !


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

Sorry I didn't get back sooner; I don't have wood alcohol, and rum doesn't work.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

Following...


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

Goat_in_Himmel said:


> Sorry I didn't get back sooner; I don't have wood alcohol, and rum doesn't work.


Yep, alas, it is insoluable in water and ethanol. Somewhat soluable in wood alcohol, at least enough will dissolve to get that flame for the copper flame test.

Dissolving it in vinegar will produce copper acetate. But since it is such a weak acid it will take quite a while. Sulfuric acid will make it into a solution of copper sulfate. Hydrochloric acid a solution of copper chloride.

Science!

I do have some sitting in a 5% acetic acid solution. Considering how weak that is, it might take a while. But copper acetate is a strong lovely blue. I'd expect if there was some form of iron in the mix, it wouldn't look that color.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Trickyroo said:


> Dont open it Levi , maybe you can return it if there is a problem&#8230;
> 
> Just a thought


Possibly, I had bought in from amazon though...quite awhile ago  so it's doubtful.


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

Guess what all! My copper oxide bolus and jar of vinegar has turned into a blue solution. So I've got copper acetate in there! 

Pretty sure that if there was any iron in there, it wouldn't have turned the correct color.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Seems that there are 2 different ways to make copper oxide. They may be using the cheaper impure form. 

Copper oxide ores are usually treated by a different process, called leaching, in which the copper in the ore is dissolved in a leaching solution (usually dilute sulfuric acid); pure copper is recovered by electrolysis. Alternatively, the solution is treated with iron to precipitate the so-called cement copper, which is impure.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Might just have to send a capsule into WSU and have them test it.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You know Coppasure is made in England so it's different ore completely to begin with...


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

At least it aint China ….


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> Might just have to send a capsule into WSU and have them test it.


That's actually a very good idea....


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Trickyroo said:


> At least it aint China &#8230;.


LOL! Good point


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

So what was the verdict on Santa Cruz?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

They're getting slapped on the wrist and paying thousands in fines...again.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

I meant on the copper; was it inferior to copasure?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Sill havent had a chance to test it. But I have a question.

We gave all our goats copper boluses and within 2 weeks, they all had copper tail. They didnt have it before. Anyone ever have this happen?


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## Tapestry (Feb 5, 2015)

Have you tried a magnet on the suspicious rods?

And Home Science Tools might be a place to order smaller amounts of wood alcohol.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I use the Santa Cruz boluses and they work fine on my herd.


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## rhawks (Sep 21, 2014)

I just ordered the Santa Cruz boluses yesterday. Ugh and now I find this thread.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Well I put a very powerful magnet to em and no attraction at all.


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## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

TDG-Farms said:


> Well I put a very powerful magnet to em and no attraction at all.


What does this mean Dave?

I too have been using Santa Cruz Copper....seems to be helping, however I think something is inhibiting the selenium and other minerals. Could too much iron do this?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ya to much Iron could do that. They looked like iron rods to me so wanted to make sure.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Sulfer is more likely to inhibit Selenium.


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## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

goathiker said:


> Sulfer is more likely to inhibit Selenium.


Think we need to test our water. Any way of combatting it if it is sulfur w/o the worry of overdose?

Oh Jill, they love the cobalt block and the redmonds rock salt!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Sulpher is pretty easy to filter, I'll do some looking this evening for homemade filters. Here's a mineral wheel if you want to play with it.


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## WitchHazel (May 5, 2015)

Oh my... I hate chemistry.


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## Mountainfarms (Feb 3, 2015)

If it had any iron at all there should be a few particles sticking to the magnet when tested. copasure past my test, and im very happy from learning about copper on here. it sure has made my little herd look good. just thought i would throw this out there for non believers.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Shortly after I posted on this, I found that the new batch of copper from Santa Cruz was not working. I ended up with a herd of fish tailed, brown goats. I've never had copper issues that bad!


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## Twink90 (Dec 21, 2013)

Well this sucks I've already dosed twice this year & my goats are not responding. 
I have the Santa Cruz blouses from last year.

My coats are crappy & you can really see the red in Link my black Lamanchas coat


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Just buy the cow boluses and split it up. You know you are getting Copasure boluses then.


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## Retiredokjusttired (Jun 26, 2016)

I bought Copasure from my feed store. I believe the company is Animax. I paid 17.50 for 24 bolus' that will treat 100 lbs a piece. I weigh them on a scale and I have some extra veg capsules for the overage. I have no idea on good price or bad, not sure I care after reading through this post. It passed the magnet test and looks like the particles are MUCH smaller than the few pics I have seen. They are grey but they "sparkle" are shiny a little too. Thought I would put the company name out. The 3 does I have given them too have had EXCELLENT turn arounds and it happened mostly after the bolus was given.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I think I pay something like $45 for a jar of 24 boluses that will do 275lb goats. Same brand.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Depending on your area you may need to dose more often. We had a lot of iron in our well and I had to bolus every 3 months. We have moved and now I do it every 6 months and will adjust as needed


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## scubacoz22 (Nov 27, 2013)

How do you know if your area is good for copper?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Jill has a link to maps with copper levels. I might have it somewhere... :scratch:

Your goats' individual copper levels have to do with exactly what they are eating, though, not just what your region's copper level is. Where their grain and hay is grown, etc.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Found it 

http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/countydata.htm


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Hmmm...
Okay, so we've been using Santa Cruz copper for about 2 or 3 years. Usually have very good results. Now, we live in a higher copper area per the maps, so I usually try to play it safe and just give 4gm kid dose to our Boer & Boer % does. 2x a year.
So earlier this year in late Feb I bought a new container of 4gm, and dosed everyone. We have a red doe that had fishtail and rough coat. Didn't see any real improvement by early April, so I gave all the adults another 4gm dose. That did it. No more fish tail and coats were nice and sleek.

The past month I've noticed the 2 red does coats looking more coarse and rough, and their color not as nice. I kept thinking maybe we had over washed them this summer from the shows. It's been nearly a month since they got a bath, and their goats are worse, it took me forever to get the clippers through them because of it (their coats are so rough I ended up clipping their body more than I usually would). 
I was just so worried about overdosing. But I did give them each a 4gm bolus. 

Now, keep in mind that they won't eat mineral! I've tried a few different brands and these particular does won't eat it. They drive me crazy! They are, however, on full feed so they are at least getting something, but I know it's not enough.

So my issue is either because they won't eat loose mineral, or the copper bolus just isn't lasting very long.
Either way, I didn't expect to have to give another dose already, it's been 4 months. 
Never had any issues in the past couple of years, and we had a red doe that was always my indicator on when they needed copper.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I don't know if it is this thread or another one but Santa Cruz copper boluses have a problem. Many people seem to be having your same problem. You may want to consider getting Replamin Plus. It is a gel you give weekly.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Interesting that your girls wont eat minerals, mine get tripping-over-themselves excited when I go to put more mineral in their feeders; even though I'm just topping them off. I think it's mostly so they can try and pull the bucket out of my hands and then one lucky goat gets to submerge her whole head in it.....kind of a goat lottery thing I guess? :think:

Which mineral are you using and have tried out in the past, just out of curiosity?

With the copper bolus, I've been getting mine from Jeffers and have been pleased with the results. Only really give it 2-3 times a year. Actually I've been doing most of my goat shopping there, no trouble at all to get to their $50 for free shipping charge then.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Are your girls still grazing at your new place? I know in your pictures they are always in the woods eating but is it the same at this new place? Mine NEVER would eat minerals when I had them out and about 24/7 eating grass and trees and what not, then I had to start penning them part of the year since coyotes like to pick my kids off. They will scarf down the minerals when they are penned and when they can go out they won't touch the minerals. There might be a nibble here or there but not this 75lbs a month! Anyways I think it's something to do with the actual grazing. But anyways I feel your frustration on it and I was so worried about ODing them as well but then Jill sent me a link years ago about a study of how you would have to give this crazy amount for them to actually over dose on it. I would change brands and keep playing with it till you get your girls figured out. When mine are eating minerals lol a 9 gram bolus will last 4+ months before they start showing signs, when they are not they start looking rough by 4 months. It's annoying and I'm not saying just grab a big bolus and give it to them but I threw the whole only give X often out the door and played with it by what I see till I got it......for the most part....figured out


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Not only that (sorry I always think of things to late lol) but if your giving 4 grams that's only enough for 88 pounds, I've seen picture of your girls, they are so not 88 pounds lol


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks, I may give them another 4gm but wow, I just can't believe they already need it. 
We actually haven't moved, although we have been trying to find a bigger place (land here is so expensive  ). The 4-H yearlings do get to graze, so that very well could be part of the issue. We've actually tried 3 different minerals. I've used the kind from TSC, Purina, and I think we are using Sweetlix, I can't honestly remember the name right now, we get it from the feed mill and it's supposed to be good. 
I think the PVC feeder is a big issue since the mineral seems to get damp thanks to the humidity. As soon as I can get to TSC I am hoping they have more mineral holder/trays in stock so I can get some and mount them on the wall and try putting the mineral in that. Sometimes I can go out with a bucket of mineral and some of them will eat it, but most of the time they turn their nose up and walk away.

I am guessing the yearlings are 150-170lbs. We'll be getting a scale to weigh them soon. I'm almost afraid to know what a couple of them weigh lol


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh goodness I just got a scale and I realize how bad I am at guessing goat weights lol so just a heads up you might be totally shocked on their weight 
But it could be because the minerals get damp, we all know what kind of picky critters we are dealing with lol it's never humid here so I have no advise there


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## scubacoz22 (Nov 27, 2013)

What kind of scale will weigh a goat?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Livestock scale.


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## Darby77 (Apr 23, 2016)

Do you all only do the copper bolus if you see the goats not looking well or as part of a routine? I got the Santa Cruz kid bolus and gave one to my baby because of high parasites and let me adult eat one because I didn't see the harm, but then the vet who was treating her before she died of kidney failure said it could have been the copper bolus that did it?? I did not do a necropsy, but wondering what you all think. She got sick about 1month after eating the bolus.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

How many grams of copper was she given? I'd like to say it's unlikely one dose would kill a goat.

Sheep toxic levels are at over 25mg/kg (1 gram = 1000mg)

So 100lb = 45.45kg = at least 1136.4mg ( for a sheep )
Goats can have a lot more.

A kid bolus is 2000mg and the suggested dose for an adult goat is twice that.

I can't say it had nothing to do with it but I don't think that giving her that one small bolus killed her. So don't blame yourself.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I don't think it would be the bolus either, unless maybe they are getting A LOT of copper from another source. The vet should have sent the liver in to get a biopsy, that would have gave you a answer about the copper :/ 
For your question though I give it basically as a routine but I also know if they go 5-6 months without copper they show serious signs of needing copper so I try to give it every 3-4 months.....what works for one though does NOT work for all


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

We switched to manna pro goat minerals and they seem to like them


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## Darby77 (Apr 23, 2016)

No she never got copper before and it was a tiny kid bolus and she didn't eat it all.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I doubt that would be enough to cause toxicity.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

No I don't think that's what did it at all then.


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