# Cause of heads back during birth



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

This year is a bad one for me and kidding with the heads back, so far I have had 2 from the same doe (2 losses) there. One born alive then died shortly after, the other born dead, they were trips and the 3rd is alive, he is well and born last. 

And another doe, first one born no issues. 2nd head back, had a hard time getting him out, born dead. 

Does anyone know the cause of this, it is frustrating, the loss is devastating.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im so sorry Pam.....I have no idea what causes mispostions, but I found this video that might help if you are faced with the issue again...


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## GoatCrazy01 (Feb 14, 2016)

So sorry for your losses  I don't have any advice to offer, but I've heard of lots of babies' heads back this year so following..


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I have wondered if there was a nutrition component to bent neck problem.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ugh that was me 2 years ago and I threw in the towel and said if they are going to be all jacked up in there I want them to be small and that's when I cut the grain out. I can not find any proof and you can call me crazy if you want but I swear the day I lost my bottle baby trying to get a kid out I stopped the grain and the head backs stopped. I have looked and looked for anything that points to it but have yet to find anything that links it together but I'm pretty sold on it and haven't given grain again and so far the only odd position has been a DOA kid last year


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry you are going through that. I hope the rest are normal for you.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thanks guys, yeah, it has been a nightmare so far. 

Thanks Cathy, I did find that video and watched it thinking it was not making sense. 
The guys opposite arm/hand that cannot and does not go into the uterus, the way he is showing there, is not possible to put the snare over the kids head with that hand, that direction, I sure wish it was that easy. 
I cannot find any info on the internet and was hoping for some answers here, LOL. 

I could not get the head to come forward, tried for several minutes. This kid happened to be huge. So that didn't help.
I have tried the snare thing several times with no success, can't seem to get it back far enough to be able to get it over the head. With any babies. 

Jessica, the grain thing might be something to consider, I feed it once in a while, but it does make you wonder.


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## grindylo (May 15, 2014)

Jessica84 said:


> Ugh that was me 2 years ago and I threw in the towel and said if they are going to be all jacked up in there I want them to be small and that's when I cut the grain out. I can not find any proof and you can call me crazy if you want but I swear the day I lost my bottle baby trying to get a kid out I stopped the grain and the head backs stopped. I have looked and looked for anything that points to it but have yet to find anything that links it together but I'm pretty sold on it and haven't given grain again and so far the only odd position has been a DOA kid last year


One of my does just kidded with four babies! They were all healthy and came out fine but seem a good bit bigger than her first time last year. Last year I think I was feeding them half the grain I was now. Started giving more with milking and didn't cut it back as much since drying up. Did you notice a size difference since stopping grain?


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

Jessica,
I have noticed that grain means different things to different people. What did you stop feeding and what do you feed now? I haven't had a "head back" birth yet, but last year was bad.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes but not this giant difference. When I cut their grain off it was about the middle of kidding and most were due about the same time so it wasn't this big notice that year but I haven't fed grain again and last year the kids were 7-8 pounds, a few a bit smaller and some a bit bigger. There are people who say it's not the feed at all it's genetics and then ones that swear it is feed. Honestly I think it's a combo of both. I don't see how it would be any different then kids that are born and growing. You have kids that will grow like crazy as long as you feed them well because of their genetics and you have ones that no matter if it's the same as the others they just don't grow as fast. I just know that whenever I have oops breedings in the past I have cut their feed way down with no grain and they have had nice small kids.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Thanks Cathy, I did find that video and watched it thinking it was not making sense.
> The guys opposite arm/hand that cannot and does not go into the uterus, the way he is showing there, is not possible to put the snare over the kids head with that hand, that direction, I sure wish it was that easy.
> I cannot find any info on the internet and was hoping for some answers here, LOL.


awe..yes I see what you mean. 
I wonder too if its not nutritional...mineral...babies have one job, to get set up correctly..its nature...so if they are getting too much protein or not enough selenium ( just as an example) maybe this is the issue. I wish we had concrete answers...


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I bet it's a mineral deficiency. Do you do cobalt blocks? I'll check through my Natural Goat Care book tomorrow, Pat almost certainly has something to say about it.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Are the does getting less exercise than previous years? Has it been extra bad weather-wise or are they in a different pen and happen to be laying around more? 

Sorry it has been a tough kidding season for you


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I had one boer doe that labored too long. I went in and couldn't find the head, just two legs. So I called the vet. She came, went in and said the kid was breach and thats why I couldn't find the head. She started pulling on those legs, wrapped a towel around them for grip. Pull, pull, pull.....Out pops the kid! The head was back and she was tugging front feet!! Gave baby some epinephrine and she was fine shortly after. Second baby slid out normal. These were 12 pound kids. I still don't know how she didn't kill that kid yanking it out like that. That was the only time I had one present that way, and I'm pretty sure that mom didn't get her Bo-Se prior to kidding.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

So sorry for all the losses. I have had one. I noticed immediately that she seemed in too much pain when she first started to push. I went in and felt the side of the neck. But I hadn't had but just a tip of a hoof. I pushed the entire kid back in until my armpit was up against the doe, then caught the jaw and feet and brought him out. 
I have had 2 with head down, leg wrapped over the top this year, and have employed the same maneuver. Very difficult when they are pushing back against you. My vet gives them a numbing block in the spine, puts a rope or twine around one leg, or both if we have them, pushes the kid back in, the pulls the head around. Much easier when they aren't pushing back at you.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Pam - have both front hooves been presenting when you find the head is back?

I have only had to correct this once, on somebody else's goat. I tried a lamb snare and hay string but found I could not work efficiently with those. The best I found was to push the kid slightly back but keeping the front feet in the birth canal so I didn't lose them. I was forced to break the amniotic sac in this case (which made my think selenium deficiency may have been a factor) and get a really good grip with the lower jaw being pinched between my thumb and pointer finger (thumb inside the kid's mouth) to pull the nose forcefully in to the canal and then further along where it should have been positioned on the feet. I could not let the jaw go though even when positioned correctly and she was contracting because once it sprang back on me and I had to go get it again. Thankfully the outcome was good for both the doe and single doe kid in this case. I recall having to use the ears to tug the head around and get my grip on that lower jaw.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow thanks everyone, appreciate it. I am trying to get to the bottom of why this is happening and I think we may be onto something. I am hoping to help others in this situation. 

No, I do not have a cobalt block.

Come to think about it, my husband picked up some loose salt and minerals, now I see it isn't the highest in selenium, and you are right, brain freeze on my part, the amniotic sac's have been a bit tough to get through. 

Yes, both legs fully out there. Head back and to the side.
I had another one do the same after I posted this, but this time I tried the snare again and did what was mentioned about going into the mouth to get the puller around the head. I also realized that gently putting the plastic tube of the puller up to the palm of my hand inserting practically the whole puller way up there, making sure it was in my hand so it wasn't tearing the doe. Meantime, the loop was going higher and I tried a few times to catch the head and then I finally got it, with a bit more hard pulling with the puller and the leg. At times, I pulled the legs a bit to get them out more then I went to the puller so I kept the head coming as well. I just started this issue of the heads back, so this was my fist year of trying the puller, I almost threw it away. But after this last kidding, I found just holding the loop part itself in my hand and trying to fish for the head, was not the correct way. It was impossible. 
I inserted the main pole part itself, really up there against and inside my palm(hand), I had my whole arm in there, then pulled the kids head around enough by inside of the mouth to get the lasso around the head. It took a lot of work and time but I do have a live baby. YAY~! I was sure it wasn't going to be alive. As long as it took.

They sure don't have any instructions on the puller. And yep, that video makes no sense, he uses his hand that is not workable at all in that direction. Needless to say, you will get very messy, I had to take a shower, I was covered in goo.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I don't know what causes head back, but it's no fun! We had one kid with its head back our second year kidding (my first time having to "go in"!). The ears were my saving grace. It was how I recognized what I was feeling. There were two legs but no head, and I wasn't sure if the two legs even belonged to the same kid. Both were trying to come out at the same time and I'm pretty sure I had the legs of one goat and the head of another trying to present at once. I pushed one leg back because I wasn't sure which kid it belonged to and there wasn't room for two legs and my hand. I followed the other leg along the shoulder until I found the back of the head and those long Alpine/Nubian ears. I pulled on one ear and was able to bring the head round far enough to get my fingers around his nose. 

The only thing that gave me enough room to work was getting the doe to her feet. It was impossible to work while she was laying down. Once she got up, gravity pulled both kids down away from the birth canal so I could get my hand past the shoulder to find the head. My husband had quite a time keeping the poor doe from laying back down or sitting on me! Once I got the head into position I kept my hand alongside it to keep it from deflecting and with my other hand I pulled on the one leg that I knew matched the head. I had no trouble delivering him with one leg back. Having slender hands and a pretty good sense of goat anatomy helps a lot! 

The second kid delivered head first with no legs presenting so I had to push his head back into the birth canal and fish around until I found a leg. I delivered him with one leg back also. Both kids' amniotic sacs were broken before they were delivered. I don't know how you could reposition a kid without breaking the sac.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Oh wow, you posted while I did! I'm so glad you were able to deliver a live kid this time! Congratulations! 

Yes, you do get VERY MESSY with this kind of delivery! I felt like I was thrown in at the deep end with my first malpresentation being a head back. I'm fortunate that my FF doe was quite roomy. Still, getting her to stand up made all the difference in the world. There was absolutely no room to work while she was laying down, and of course she wanted to lay on the side where the kid's head was turned so his weight and hers prevented me from budging it. Once she was standing and that pressure was relieved the head actually came round pretty easily.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

oH, Yes. I agree with standing the doe up. First thing I've done, and I actually had to hold up the last one that the vet went into. She said the same thing, got to get them to stand first to allow gravity to help. 
Good one Damifino


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good idea. The only bad thing with that one is, if you are alone, it is hard to do, I was alone.  

It isn't a good feeling, anytime we reach in, but to find the worse cases, it is devastating and so unsure, if the kid will be alive or not.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I think if I were delivering a malpresentation alone, I would get a halter on the doe and tie her head up to a gate or something. It sounds unpleasant for the poor girl, but it's better than me trying to run after her with my hand up her backside while she circles the stall flopping to the ground and popping back up every thirty seconds. They can't push as hard when standing so it's easier for me to get my arm inside and reach as far as I have to. I've been fortunate that my husband has been present for most of our deliveries and he's been able to get the girls up and hold them there for me when needed. While I definitely prefer to have a normal, unassisted delivery, there's something fascinating to me about reaching in and sorting out the puzzle of a malpresentation. It would be sad if the kid didn't make it but so far ours have come out alright. If there were such a thing as a goat midwife, I'd love to be one! I realize I kind of enjoy repositioning kids and I think I may have a knack for figuring out what goes where. I cringed when I read Sassykat's story of the vet who pulled a kid out head-back thinking it was breech. To me, that vet did not take the time to feel things out adequately. You should know what you're dealing with before you start hauling away. 

The worst presentation I've heard about was a sideways kid. I don't remember how they got that one out, but the doe was very torn up afterwards. The kid had others behind it so it was extremely difficult to push it back or turn it either direction. That kid didn't make it. In fact, I'm not sure if any of them did. I really wish I'd been there to have a go at it because I think I'd have learned a lot from the experience.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm so sorry Pam that is awful  Been there, and know the frustration ♥
I wish there was info/study on what can cause this. With our small herd, we've had it happen with a doe on limited grain, and another that was getting grain (I knew she most likely had a single and I should have cut her back). 
I wonder if it could just be lousy luck sometimes or a deficiency of some sort that is causing the dams to not get them in correct position, especially in does that have kidded fine in the past. It sure is a lot to consider. 

Our first babies are due in 3-4 weeks, and I am nervous, because they are each getting about 2lbs. of grain and about 1cup each alfalfa pellets a day, clover/grass hay. We don't have pasture/grazing this time of year. Girls have good weight, but I worry about big babies, or issues. Last year was a weird one for us.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Sorry Pam. If you are having repeated problems that you haven't had before, I think you are right to suspect something isn't quite right. For me, it was selenium the year I had so much trouble. The head back problem is the worst one I've ever dealt with. The best doe I have I pulled alive from the head back position. I had one last year that I finally got out, but the kid was dead. I know it had been alive because I could feel him move. I think I finally got him out because he died and finally relaxed. I don't know what the best answer is, but if you worked out a snare technique that worked, that might serve you well in the future. And I am definitely going to try to get them to stand if I have another one. Is the theory on standing that you can push them back in further that way - to reposition? The ones I've had, the more you pull the feet, the further their head goes back. You get ahold of the head and pull, you lose the feet. It's a nightmare. All other bad presentations pale in comparison. It is always a big kid that you have the head back it seems. I've pulled medium sized kids out in every possible position imaginable. Including nothing but butt and side ways. I've pulled them out head and no legs and of course two back feet.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Yes, standing allows the kids to be able to go back in easier, to get the head out of the birth canal, and then bring it around. Just make sure you tie a small rope or clean twine to each leg just above the hoof so you don't lose the legs.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Tenacross said:


> Is the theory on standing that you can push them back in further that way - to reposition? The ones I've had, the more you pull the feet, the further their head goes back. You get ahold of the head and pull, you lose the feet. It's a nightmare. All other bad presentations pale in comparison. It is always a big kid that you have the head back it seems.


Put your hand in while the doe is lying down, then have someone get her to her feet. You'll actually feel the kids fall back into the uterus and you'll suddenly have way more room to get your hand in there. Contractions aren't the only thing that pushes kids toward the exit--the pressure of the doe's weight when she lays down also pushes them along quite hard. And most importantly, when the kids are pressed against the sides of the birth canal, the pressure reflexively triggers more and stronger contractions. With that pressure removed, her contractions become weaker and further apart. By standing her, you're actually inducing a stalled labor, which is good if you have to reposition kids. She may be very unhappy about standing, but you can be much gentler with her if she's up and you're not fighting so hard with her insides.

I know what you mean about finding the head and then losing the feet! That's what happened when I went for that head back. I ended up bringing one foot to the outside and held it with my left hand (without pulling on it) while I reached in with my right hand and brought the head around. I didn't need twine that time because I was able to keep hold of the foot, but I keep twine in my kidding box in case I ever have one who insists on pulling his foot back. Interesting you should mention it's always big kids. Mine that had his head back was 11 lbs. and was the larger of the two.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good suggestions and thank you so much everyone for your support.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Wish I could help but have no experience with this....glad you got one out alive and well! 

Meanwhile I am panicking about kidding season again this year....seems to be a lot of issues for everyone this year


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

I am so sorry for your losses.
We have faced this a few times over the years and have lost two.
Twisted Sister (so named due to her terrible position) was the worst two years ago. How we managed to get her out a save her I will never know. My son lost one who's neck was broken this year.
I have no idea as to the cause but am sending you good thoughts for smoother kiddings to come.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Damfino said:


> I think if I were delivering a malpresentation alone, I would get a halter on the doe and tie her head up to a gate or something. It sounds unpleasant for the poor girl, but it's better than me trying to run after her with my hand up her backside while she circles the stall flopping to the ground and popping back up every thirty seconds. They can't push as hard when standing so it's easier for me to get my arm inside and reach as far as I have to. I've been fortunate that my husband has been present for most of our deliveries and he's been able to get the girls up and hold them there for me when needed. While I definitely prefer to have a normal, unassisted delivery, there's something fascinating to me about reaching in and sorting out the puzzle of a malpresentation. It would be sad if the kid didn't make it but so far ours have come out alright. If there were such a thing as a goat midwife, I'd love to be one! I realize I kind of enjoy repositioning kids and I think I may have a knack for figuring out what goes where. I cringed when I read Sassykat's story of the vet who pulled a kid out head-back thinking it was breech. To me, that vet did not take the time to feel things out adequately. You should know what you're dealing with before you start hauling away.
> 
> The worst presentation I've heard about was a sideways kid. I don't remember how they got that one out, but the doe was very torn up afterwards. The kid had others behind it so it was extremely difficult to push it back or turn it either direction. That kid didn't make it. In fact, I'm not sure if any of them did. I really wish I'd been there to have a go at it because I think I'd have learned a lot from the experience.


My doe Cloud had a sideways kid, the back was U shaped coming out. The kid was dead, but two live kids came out afterward thank goodness. And that was my first experience kidding. It was horrible.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thank you guys.

Loss is always hard, but it is a good feeling when we get some out alive and they thrive. That is a miracle in itself, because most of the time, they do not survive. 
I am almost thinking selenium deficiency. Because of the minerals we bought, were lower than we usually get.
It is a strange, devastating thing that happens.


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

I used to give a vitamin E capsule to my girls every day the last few weeks before kidding. We never had any trouble then. We stopped because we have more goats now and no longer have a feeding bucket for each goat. I am going to try giving them in peanut butter sandwiches. Of course that is along with BoSe and loose minerals!!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm digging up this thread because we had a nasty case of head back yesterday. A big two-year-old first freshener was a week overdue and labor wasn't progressing much after the water broke. We saw the amniotic bubble start to come, but then it disappeared, never to return. Instead there was a lot of fluid. The sac had broken inside. I went for an exploratory exam and unexpectedly found the doe only partially dilated. I could barely get my fingers inside past the middle joint, never mind my knuckles! I waited about 20 minutes in hopes she would dilate a little more as she contracted. This time I was able to get my hand in, but just barely. She was very, very tight, and the only thing I could feel was a hairy shoulder. There was no head and no legs. I was able to reach down and retrieve the legs, but the head eluded me. The kid had a very long neck and the head was so far back it had to be almost touching the tail. And that doe would not dilate enough for me to force my way in any further! She was very strong and pushing hard, which didn't help. 

After I'd been trying about fifteen minutes my vet friend who is boarding horses at my place just happened to show up and of course I flagged her down. First thing she taught me--keep the doe up with a straw bale! Brilliant idea! My husband and my father-in-law had been bracing that goat up with sheer strength, but the straw bale took the weight so all they had to do was keep her on it (easier said than done a few times, but still better than trying to support her!).

Unfortunately we did not have a happy ending. The vet and I took turns working away for well over an hour and neither of us could get much luck. I had gotten the kid's head turned toward me by hooking his lower jaw with my fingers, but then he got stuck that way with his neck facing away and his nose pointing back at us in a very kinked position. The top of the head was now out of reach and the jaw too slippery to grasp. And there simply was no room in that doe! The vet had even less luck than me because her hands were slightly bigger and she had a hard time using her left, which in this case was required. We tag-teamed each other as our arms grew numb, but after about the third or fourth try our vet gave up and said we needed to take her to the clinic for an emergency c-section. 

I decided to try one last time. I lubed up (because by now things were getting pretty dry in there), and I was able to push the feet completely back in. We had both tried this earlier, but Tigerlily was pushing so hard we couldn't get the feet to retract enough, and she was so tight we couldn't get the head into the passage with both our hands and the feet in there. It was a mess. By the time I gave it my last try, Tigerlily was so exhausted she'd stopped pushing. She had also dilated just a little more. It was enough. I was finally able to get the feet out of the way and bring that head around. Once the head was out, I was able to go back in for a leg and he came away. Unfortunately, he was gone by then and we weren't able to revive him. 

But I learned a couple of things. First, use a straw or hay bale to keep that goat up! Second, find the head (or tail) first! Don't bring the legs out until you know where the head is because you may need the room, and once those legs are out they may not go back in. Of course, this won't do any good if the legs are already out before you help the doe, but in this case I think I would have been much better off if I'd left those legs curled under out of the way while I reached in for the head. Once the head is in place it's usually not hard to find a leg. The opposite cannot be said! 

I'd been hoping for a buckling, and he sure was a pretty one. I'm very sad we lost him, but I'm grateful for lessons learned. I'm also grateful that our doe is ok and didn't need a c-section after all. I had high hopes for this little lady. This was our most-anticipated kidding of the year, and I'm sad it turned out this way. I don't know why she didn't dilate properly. She's a big doe and she looks wide enough. She's had a very healthy, active pregnancy and from the looks of things she should have had no trouble. The kid was super long, but not overly wide. This should have been much easier than it turned out.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

I'm just finding this thread now, but finding it very interesting because I only had two does kid this year, but both needed assistance because of kids with heads back. Like the OP, I am also in California (although further south- I'm in northern Santa Barbara county). I had wondered if it could be a mineral deficiency as well, so curious that others have had problems this year. My does did have loose minerals (VitaFerm ConceptAid) and were given very little grain. I'm not sure if my area is selenium deficient or not, so they were not given supplemental selenium. One doe was a FF whose dam kidded last year with no problems. The other was on her 3rd freshening, and had issues last year as well, but she had 5 kids last year, which I think was the issue. Makes me nervous to breed my does again, since I have only had 4 total kiddings on my farm, and 3 of them needed my neighbor's assistance to pull kids because I was unable to do it on my own.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Sorry you lost the kid. That is really too bad. 
I have had 70 kids born this year, at least 20 have had their heads back or some other bad presentation. I gave loose minerals, those with problems did get Bo Se and Vit. E. They had decent hay, but, were dry lotted and did not get as much exercise as they should have. They ate hay and laid around. 

I think exercise might be a clue to my birthing problems. (Heads back kids all survived, but I have had some thick sacks and 3 kids did not make it, I got there minutes after the birth and was too late. )


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I had a Selenium issue this year (99% sure) and I didn't have any years back. I had a good handful with heads only (my biggest nightmare from a past head only) and a Hangul of breech. And not 'here's my back legs pull fast" it was a cute little tail sticking out and had to go way in to get those legs. This is my 7th year and I have ever only had 1 breech, and 2 heads only. On one all 3 of her kids were like that. My biggest issue was thick sacks with cords breaking right at the stomach. Till I started breaking sacks as soon as I saw them and getting the kids out as fast as I could without causing harm to the mother I was having drowned kids. I was also having some goofy legs, does trying to retain placenta and I don't know if it's related or not but I've had more tubed ears then ever before and out of all 3 bucks so I can't really blame it on genetics although it could be just bad luck. 
I suffered a huge loss this year and as much as I hate to do it will be breeding my girls back sooner then a year (by 2 months) but I have a bag of loose selenium salt coming and I will be on top of the bose this year and my fingers are so crossed that cures things


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I've had dairy goats for 35 years, had Boers for 4 years and Nigerians for several in that time frame. All my goats get fed grain every day, 365 (366 for leap year!) days a year. I have only had a head back once in all that time. That happened this year and was due to the triplets being 3 weeks premie and the one with the head back was dead and therefore not able to put himself in the proper birthing position.

I have been taught that mal-positioned kids are usually that way because they are dead or because the mother didn't get enough exercise during the last week or so of pregnancy. True? Don't know but the only time I had position problems was when the weather was horrid 3 years in a row and I couldn't get the girls out to their outside pen. After that, I made sure that no matter what, they get outside for a few hours every day and do a lot of moving around during the last 3-4 weeks of their pregnancy. Before my fire, the barn was set up so that there was no place to have a run in situation for them (it was a garage). When I built my new barn, I swore I would never lock them in again, so the door is always open if I am not home and almost all of the time unless we are having a heavy wind with driving rain or snow. I feed them their hay outside, so they have to go out and move around. If they decide to be lazy, I make them get up and go outside, even if I have to lock them out of the barn.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

All of our kiddings have been hard this year too! The first two does needed pulling assistance. Both kids from the first doe had a leg back and she was too weak to push much so I pulled them. The second doe was pretty strong, but her first kid had a leg back and he was big, so he got stuck and I had to assist. Her second kid was head first, no feet. My third doe had triplets and the first thing we saw peeking out was a fuzzy little tail. Her second kid was head-first and twisted. The third actually came out normally without help. That was our only normal presentation this year. Our fourth doe is the one whose kid had a head back and didn't make it. We don't kid many goats each year, but they shouldn't ALL have issues! 

In my area I worry more about selenium toxicity than deficiency but it's hard to say. The sacs have not been abnormally thick and there's been nothing weird with umbilical cords. However, several of our kids have been bow-legged in front (thankfully they seem to be straightening). It's the first I've seen this issue and the goats with crooked legs are not related so it can't be genetic. It's got to be a mineral imbalance, but I'm not sure which one. Everyone wants to blame selenium, but this *shouldn't* be my problem unless something is blocking their uptake or else the abnormally wet weather washed the nutrients out of my pasture. That is a possibility. We've had a ton of rain all at once and I wonder if the grass sprang up too quickly to absorb adequate nutrients from the soil. 

The girls have definitely gotten very copper deficient in the last month or so, and boluses did absolutely nothing to help. In fact, they got worse. It came on very quickly. We use a very good loose mineral, but they stopped eating it when the green grass came in about 6-8 weeks ago. I'm not sure what to make of it all.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> I have been taught that mal-positioned kids are usually that way because they are dead or because the mother didn't get enough exercise during the last week or so of pregnancy.


Lack of exercise definitely can't be the case with my goats! I have no barn and no stalls. My goats have the run of 40 acres during the day and at night they stay in huge pens. They do a lot of walking on their own, but we also take everyone for a half-mile walk around our hilly property every day and sometimes a three-mile walk up the road. The pregnant ladies waddle right along with the pack weathers and yearlings up to the day they kid, so lethargy can't be our particular problem.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Damfino that's what happened here in Cali this year with the rain too. We have been in a drought for years and then we got above average rain, at least in my area. We usually average 12" 15 is a wet year and I would have to add it all up and give you a exact number but we got +\- 30".
Exercise was not a issue with mine either. I am HUGE on exercise and I don't care that they cat like hatred of rain they will run or walk to the feeders on the other side of the pen if they want to eat or go graze if they don't want to go that far and their water is in another corner of their pen.
Why I'm pointing to selenium is because I took kids in for a necropsy and they gave me a huge long list of minerals they tested but no selenium on it, as in they didn't even test for their selenium at all! I'm sure there were other things that were not tested either but in my mind I'm sold and if after I take the precautions this next breeding I still have issues then I'll go back to the drawing board, but involving a vet sure didn't get me any answers so I'm shooting in the dark on my own and sadly it will have to be trial by error


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I can't believe they wouldn't test for selenium! As many areas as are deficient in this country, I'd think that would be one of the first minerals they'd look at. I believe it's not that hard to test from a blood sample. A few of my friends have had their horses tested for selenium because of poisoning issues in our area. One of my own horses died from selenium poisoning a few years ago and my goats have had toxicity issues in the past where I've had to feed sulfur to block their uptake. It would be strange if we were deficient, but as I said, it's a weird year for rainfall. None of the selenium indicator weeds have come up in my pasture yet. The good thing about a selenium deficiency in my area is that it should correct itself very quickly once summer progresses and the pasture matures. I hesitate to supplement selenium because once it's in their system, there's nothing that precipitates it out. Selenium poisoning is far more difficult to cure than selenium deficiency so I have to be very careful.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It has been really frustrating this kidding season for me as well, almost threw in the towel and sold out because of the devastation with loss this year, heads back, painted kids at that, big kids, losing 2 first time mamma's from the issues of birthing, one with head back, I guess she tore. Sometimes it happens. And the other was really odd, normal kidding, no issues, but 2 days later, she swelled up really huge in the vulva area, I mean big, not sure why, but laid down, yelled out, then just died. My husband noticed there was no pee on the shavings. Never had an issue such as that ever.  
I have never had so much loss in all my years. I believe a lot of it had to do with the drought, then all of a sudden the rains/floods came and washed all the selenium left in the pasture. I also boo-booed and got loose salt and minerals with not enough selenium/copper, I knew better but all the stores were out of the really good stuff. But with the combination, I did my goats in.

My vet said, give all my pregnant does, 1 month before kidding Mu-se 1 cc per 200 lbs. 
Full dosage. I am so afraid to give that much, do not want to overdose.
The vet said, we are very deficient here.
But if you have the opposite of deficient, it is hard to say.

When my goat needed assistance. The bad thing was, I have a big pasture and she was all the way across the field, no hay bale close, I was alone on top of that. She wouldn't stay up on her feet, but after a long fight to get that head in the lamb puller, plus my whole arm in her, with, the puller all the way in there, I was finally able to get the kid out, alive. It was so joyful to finally figure out how to use the lamb puller. All the times before, with the losses, I couldn't figure it out so always lost the kids born with head back. Was too long getting them out. 

I just pray, everyone has a better kidding year. :grouphug:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

See I would have thought that would be the first thing they tested as well. From reading it sounds like selenium deficiency can cause all kinds of issues. I'll have to look into the blood though but I do think you are right, rain and even no rain can mess with things in a big way. I remember the first year I had goats we got a good amount of rain and I lost almost all my kids to E. coli, I think I had maybe 10 does tops but everyone was loosing kids that year. It may not of even been a mineral and just something that came up out of the ground, I really don't know.
Pam I would think that even if you gave a little less that would probably still help things out a ton! I went ahead and gave the bose before kidding but I was late, of course the one time I didn't write the dang date down but I remember it being way after the one month mark and I only gave everyone 3cc. My smallest lamancha cross is 130 so it was well under dosed for my big boers. Anyways all the issues did just stop just 90% had already kidded. So even under dosing it made a huge difference.......again if I'm even on the right track. Did you give bose before yours were due?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I will most likely give the bo-se or Mu-se before kidding, next kidding season.

I didn't do Bo-se before they kidded this time no, so I am leaning towards selenium issue with most of the problems this go around. It all seems to point that way. I guess we will find out next time, if that is the cause, by giving the Doe's, 1 month prior to kidding B0-se or Mu-se, even if it is underdosed, along with the proper mineral count.


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## Steampunked (Mar 23, 2015)

It's probably not really a thing due to the different shapes (and looooong legs!), but...having had a human baby who was malpositioned, the problem turned out to be that she was way too _big_. She couldn't drop into correct position because she couldn't rotate at all. There was just no room in there! I also couldn't walk for the last couple of months, which reminded me of the does who were confined over winter - plus the poster who said that less grain helped. My ob said the huge baby plus my lack of movement meant the head and shoulders couldn't set up.

Add a long set of legs to that, and a longer neck, and it might be a contributor?

(Apologies for being weird)


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh Pm what a year for you..Im so sorry...I would be careful with Muse as it is twice as strong as BoSe. I was reading an article on using BoSe more often ...Ill try to find that and share it here...

quality loose minerals do help...but you wont find many if any at all with high selenium since they tend to err on caution of toxicity, so supplementing is needed for those of us in def. areas..


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Steampunked said:


> It's probably not really a thing due to the different shapes (and looooong legs!), but...having had a human baby who was malpositioned, the problem turned out to be that she was way too _big_. She couldn't drop into correct position because she couldn't rotate at all. There was just no room in there! I also couldn't walk for the last couple of months, which reminded me of the does who were confined over winter - plus the poster who said that less grain helped. My ob said the huge baby plus my lack of movement meant the head and shoulders couldn't set up.
> 
> Add a long set of legs to that, and a longer neck, and it might be a contributor?
> 
> (Apologies for being weird)


That could contribute to it for sure.
Sorry you had a bad delivery, but glad it came out OK.  
Plus, you are not weird at all. I am looking for answers and that will be considered as well, thank you.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

happybleats said:


> Oh Pm what a year for you..Im so sorry...I would be careful with Muse as it is twice as strong as BoSe. I was reading an article on using BoSe more often ...Ill try to find that and share it here...
> 
> quality loose minerals do help...but you wont find many if any at all with high selenium since they tend to err on caution of toxicity, so supplementing is needed for those of us in def. areas..


Thanks, yeah, it has been a nightmare. 

I know Mu-se is very strong, so I will be careful with it. I never give full dosage of B0-se because I know the danger of giving too much.
I was thrown back on what the vet said, after I told her I was only giving 2 cc's to my mature boers if they withheld afterbirth. She told me, "You are not giving enough and you cannot overdose it"~!
I thought OK she is crackers~! I didn't say anything to her, but so wanted to.

I will appreciated the article very much thanks.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im still looking for it..I know I saved it to read more...but the article says the same thing..you can over dose..and Im not convinced of that but the article had a lot to consider...that the vit e prevents the selenium from becoming toxic..Ill keep looking.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I would not count on vitamin E preventing selenium poisoning. As far as I know, there is nothing that can rid the body of excess selenium once it's been absorbed. There are minerals such as sulfur and molybdenum that can prevent uptake if fed to excess, but once selenium is in the bloodstream I don't believe there is anything that can precipitate it back out. This is why selenium poisoning is so dangerous and is often a chronic condition. 

I have to wonder about the interplay of minerals and why selenium does not seem to be getting properly absorbed by so many goats all over the country. Selenium deficiency should, in theory, be easily correctable through diet, not through injections. I wonder how many of us are feeding too much sulfur and/or molybdenum and don't even realize it. I think my goats are both copper and selenium deficient this year, but it is in no way due to lack of access to these minerals. I fed primarily alfalfa through the winter and alfalfa tends to be high in molybdenum. Our soil here is also very high in molybdenum. If I'm accidentally feeding a toxic amount of molybdenum, we're going to see copper and selenium deficiency because the molybdenum is blocking absorption. I plan to feed a lot less alfalfa this winter and see what happens, because while I like what alfalfa does to my milk production, I have suspicions that it is at least partially to blame for our current mineral deficiencies. Where I live, goats on free choice pasture like mine should not be selenium deficient--ever.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good idea there Damfino, hmm, I am curious on what the outcome will be. 

I do agree, diet should be how they get proper nutrients, but I do find some just don't eat enough minerals. 
It can be frustrating and concerning whether or not we are going to accidentally over do the minerals and cause death.
There is a fine line there.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im still looking for that article..and yes, Damfino...cautious on the content..and Its been a while but I think the idea was the vit E helps the body use the selenium so it does not accumulate to toxic levels...I need to find the article..I have not found anything to back the writer up how ever...as for you thought...YES I think absolutely diet interfere with mineral uptake. we have high sulphur and a huge copper deficiency issue


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Steampunked said:


> It's probably not really a thing due to the different shapes (and looooong legs!), but...having had a human baby who was malpositioned, the problem turned out to be that she was way too _big_. She couldn't drop into correct position because she couldn't rotate at all. There was just no room in there! I also couldn't walk for the last couple of months, which reminded me of the does who were confined over winter - plus the poster who said that less grain helped. My ob said the huge baby plus my lack of movement meant the head and shoulders couldn't set up.
> 
> Add a long set of legs to that, and a longer neck, and it might be a contributor?
> 
> (Apologies for being weird)


Well, I'll be weird with you! I had a big baby & no dilation or progression & ended up getting cut open. The midwife said she was too big to get low enough down in my pelvis to push on my cervix & that's why I never got over 2 cm. after 3 days of contractions.

My goats are looking copper deficient despite bolusing as well; maybe I'll blame getting 2x the rain we normally get too. Luckily both does had normal kiddings-one had twin doelings & one had a single doeling. The one with the single doeling decided to ignore the clean dry straw in the shed & drop her baby in a yucky puddle though. She was so covered in muck that I had to bring her in the house to clean & dry her, & I was really worried about her belly button getting infected, but it didn't.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> Its been a while but I think the idea was the vit E helps the body use the selenium so it does not accumulate to toxic levels


Vitamin E definitely helps the body use selenium, but if you feed (or inject) more than the body can actually use, Vitamin E will not prevent it from accumulating to toxic levels (at least not according to common experience found in selenium rich areas such as mine).

I read an article the other day about cows in Canada dying from copper and selenium deficiency despite access to these minerals. It turned out it was all in herds that were fed a primarily alfalfa diet, and they were actually dying from molybdenum toxicity, which works by blocking the body's ability to use copper and selenium. Many goat owners (including myself in the last couple of years) feed diets high in alfalfa, and I wonder if this could be causing selenium and copper deficiencies in some herds. I should not have to supplement either of these minerals in my area, so something has to be blocking their uptake. Feeding more copper and selenium is not going to help if the problem is actually molybdenum poisoning. I plan to feed more grass and less alfalfa this winter and see if that helps. Grass absorbs less molybdenum than legumes such as alfalfa. This is an interesting article about copper deficiency in cattle: 
http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2003/May/CT271.shtml

I love this USGS mineral survey. It has maps of all kinds of mineral concentrations for every area of the US at different soil depths.
https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2014/1082/pdf/ofr2014-1082.pdf

I'm fortunate that most minerals in my area are not off-the-charts low or high. But selenium and molybdenum are both in the red zone where I live. The cool thing is that these minerals could potentially balance each other. Molybdenum may help prevent selenium poisoning in our rather toxic area, yet having so much selenium available in our soil should prevent deficiencies. I think the problem I'm having is that I threw off our goats' natural mineral balancing abilities by feeding too much alfalfa over the winter (a time of year when they have little choice of forages) and accidentally caused a molybdenum overload. This is something I'll definitely have to keep an eye on in the future.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> Well, I'll be weird with you! I had a big baby & no dilation or progression & ended up getting cut open. The midwife said she was too big to get low enough down in my pelvis to push on my cervix & that's why I never got over 2 cm. after 3 days of contractions.


My doe with the head-back kid wasn't contracting properly either. The baby's shoulder was jammed against the birth canal so I don't think there was enough pressure to trigger good contractions. It wasn't until I put my hand in there that she really started to push (and boy did she push then--I had deep bruises on my hand and forearm after trying to turn that kid around!). The malpresentation is probably partly why she wasn't dilated properly. Poor little baby. I feel so bad we lost him.

My poor Tigerlily has had a rough time since then. She retained the placenta and is on antibiotics for that. It's been a week and she never passed it so I'm not sure what to expect at this point. She finally started eating properly yesterday. Before then she was barely eating anything (luckily she had enough "padding" to afford some weight loss). She's still running a low grade fever which I'm hoping will break now that she's finally eating and going with the herd. I sure hope we have a better kidding season next year. I also hope my pretty girl is still fertile after this ordeal. She's such a nice doe and the only "Finn baby" I kept. I really want Finn's genetics to stay in our herd, so fingers crossed our Tigerlily heals.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well now you gave me something to think on! This last year up till probably the last month of them being bred (I think) I gave my does REALLY good alfalfa. As in it was tested and came up just a little shy of my parents being able to sell it for dairy hay, #1. Usually they get alfalfa with a good amount of weed in it or stuff from the feed store while being bred and all threw being prego. My parents have the report some place I'll see if I can find it and see if that is listed.
But I did also do things a little different this year. I usually pull the bucks after 3 month and then put all the girls together in one pen. I pulled the bucks just shy of 4 months and kept them in their pens so no one fought and aborted and that made it so all three pens had a crazy amount of grass which they did graze on very often. But I kept thinking it had something to do with the grass at first but maybe I should have looked into the hay as well.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, interesting.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Not sure if this will ease your mind, but here is what I do with Bose. 
My show girls get a full dose at 1 ml per 40 lbs every month from may through September. My pregnant does get a booster at 30 to 45 days prior to due date, even if they were in my show string. I have Vitaferm minerals, goatlix tubs, and Sweetlix minerals out free choice. I give about 1/2 cup of alfalfa pellets in with their grain twice a day. I feed grass hay. Once they kid, and in the last 30 days of pregnancy, I increase grain to 1 pound per kid twice daily. These are Boers. 
I've never had an issue with selenium toxicity, but have had low selenium issues. 
One doe this year had very thick sacks on her kids. One sack had to be cut to get it open. She had one dose of Bose last summer, and one prior to kidding. I gave her another dose a few weeks after kidding. She really looks good, has more stability in pasterns, and less worm load than last year after kidding. 
The only malpositioning I had this year was heads down between front legs, and a few with only one front leg coming out with the head. 
So, I think maybe you can feel safer giving a full dose when needed.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Ugh Pam, I just lost a gorgeous doeling this morning from this. Front feet first, head back. We've had pretty smooth sailing until the last couple weeks, we've had a few malpositioned kids. I don't know if it's just a fluke or if there's a cause for it. It does seem like it's mostly the big kids getting positioned incorrectly, but the one this morning was on the average to smaller side so I'm not sure. I gave all my does selenium and copper last month. They're on premium alfalfa. All look healthy. Not over conditioned and they get a lot of exercise. 

I'm sorry you're having trouble!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am sorry you had issues as well. 

It is so frustrating.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I lost a doe kid to the head back curse. But, this doe did get a lot of exercise, had BoSe and Vit, E gel cap, loose minerals, etc. all the stuff one is supposed to do. Doe was in slow labor, I went in to check, and found feet, no head . The doe started pushing and The kid was finally pushed out, stillborn. I tried everything. I believe it was either dead before she went into labor or her neck was broken during the labor. 

The poor doe is still crying and looking for her baby. (I let her clean it off, so she knew it was dead). 
You would think after 84 kids born this year, I would be numb to babies. Nope! I feel so bad for her.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Vitamin E definitely helps the body use selenium, but if you feed (or inject) more than the body can actually use, Vitamin E will not prevent it from accumulating to toxic levels (at least not according to common experience found in selenium rich areas such as mine).
> 
> I read an article the other day about cows in Canada dying from copper and selenium deficiency despite access to these minerals. It turned out it was all in herds that were fed a primarily alfalfa diet, and they were actually dying from molybdenum toxicity, which works by blocking the body's ability to use copper and selenium. Many goat owners (including myself in the last couple of years) feed diets high in alfalfa, and I wonder if this could be causing selenium and copper deficiencies in some herds. I should not have to supplement either of these minerals in my area, so something has to be blocking their uptake. Feeding more copper and selenium is not going to help if the problem is actually molybdenum poisoning. I plan to feed more grass and less alfalfa this winter and see if that helps. Grass absorbs less molybdenum than legumes such as alfalfa. This is an interesting article about copper deficiency in cattle:
> http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2003/May/CT271.shtml


Oh I agree...Balance is key...I have read that about the cows...You know its important to understand what balance is needed for each herd and location...no two will be alike..and I agree 100% about we can supplement all w want but if the body wont use it we need to know why....after a month of bringing water in to feed our Does...we are already seeing a big difference in coat condition and weight. And one all white doe is actually getting a golden dusting of color!! We wont see a milk increase I don't believe since the udder is set for the season but I fully believe we will see better production next season..Our sulphur level are so high you can taste it and smell it..its so gross..cant afford a water filter the size we need right now so we are bringing water in water tanks...we are now going to add another tank for the bucks..its a HUGE pain in the rear end...but the health of the animals and productivity is priority. SO yes, there are out side influences that need to be considered when you are making sure they are getting what they need mineral wise and seeing no results..


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Goats Rock said:


> I lost a doe kid to the head back curse. But, this doe did get a lot of exercise, had BoSe and Vit, E gel cap, loose minerals, etc. all the stuff one is supposed to do. Doe was in slow labor, I went in to check, and found feet, no head . The doe started pushing and The kid was finally pushed out, stillborn. I tried everything. I believe it was either dead before she went into labor or her neck was broken during the labor.
> 
> The poor doe is still crying and looking for her baby. (I let her clean it off, so she knew it was dead).
> You would think after 84 kids born this year, I would be numb to babies. Nope! I feel so bad for her.


I always hate loss, can't get use to it and never will.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

So...a high sulfur level will inhibit copper uptake? Or will in inhibit selenium uptake? Or will it do both?

Or am I completely mixed up and it enhances copper and/or selenium uptake?

I live in a high sulfur area, and have a constant battle keeping my herd from showing selenium AND copper deficiencies. I had never put the 2 together.

Could someone knowledgeable take pity on me and straighten me out?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> So...a high sulfur level will inhibit copper uptake? Or will in inhibit selenium uptake? Or will it do both?


I know it sure does Copper but not sure about Selenium. for me it was like taking one step forward and 3 giants steps back...I notice a slow but steady increase in copper related symptoms and problems each year. We were told sulphur stays on the top level of water so if our well is too low it makes sense our problem would grow since we are getting more sulphur in our troughs from the well pumping off the top layer. The filter system is over $8,000 for just the house, over 10,000 if we want it for the animals as well..crazy. Our next step is to get a bid on drilling deeper..


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Does anyone know if high sulfur inhibits selenium uptake?

I really need to know.

I've been constantly shoving calf sized boluses and tubes of selenium/vit E gel down throats with worsening effects.

Only since, in desperation, I've gone to so many supplements just put out there and constantly replenished have I been able to make any headway.

I love to feed alfalfa, but have been unable to buy it this past Winter/Spring. So I don't think too much alfalfa is the roadblock.

Please, whoever knows. I need to find out if there is a high sulfur connection to my selenium woes.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Cathy, thank you. from the bottom of my sulfurous well, I thank you.


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