# What's The Big Deal About ADGA And Natuaral Horns?



## Pacamamma

*What's The Big Deal About ADGA And Natural Horns?*

So, I was wondering what the specific reason is for the dis-qualification of horned goats in the show ring. The ADGA website says: _*My animal has natural horns. Can it be shown? *_ _**_ _**__*No, animals with natural horns shall not be shown.*_
Why is this?


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## nchen7

I've wondered the same thing.....


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## liz

It is because of the safety of the handlers as well as the safety to other goats.... Dairy goats are known for their udders and can be very easily injured by another goats horns.


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## nchen7

then why are Boer's allowed their horns?


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## liz

Boers are not a Dairy breed, they are a meat breed and usually do not have the massive udders of dairy breeds, and the horns of a Boer curve backward, most often, dairy goats horns are more upright with a slight curve allowing the tips to become dangerous weapons


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## Pacamamma

Are all dairy goats dis-budded? Seems to me that dairy goats in other parts of the world tend to keep their horns .


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Almost all registered dairy goats are disbudded. The ones that stay horned can be registered, but never shown. 
Disbudding kids is for safety of the handlers, other goats and animals, and better overall. With a disbudded goat you don't have to worry about broken horns, injury to you or other creatures, heads stuck in fences, will they fit on the milk stand, and everything else.
Disbudded animals are safer , and better looking(in the dairy world), and easier to manage.


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## liz

I currently have 1 horned registered nigerian dwarf doe, 2 disbudded does, 1 disbudded buck, 2 polled bucks and 2 polled does.... also have 3 horned nigerian/pygmy does and 1 horned wether. 
I don't show and have learned to respect the horns of my goats who have them, I disbud any registered nigerian kids born because I know it is something that is best for the goat and new owner in the long run. Not everyone is as accomodating to horns as I am


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## nchen7

understood! always wondered why diary goats HAVE to be disbudded according to the rules....


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## lottsagoats

Dairy goats are usually handled more often than most meat breeds. You have to milk twice a day, where with meat breeds, you don't. The chances of injury rises with each time you handle an animal. The only horned dairy goat I ever owned impaled me in the thigh accidentally when she jumped off the milk stand one day. Talk about ouch! She was a rescue, and the sweetest girl. Total accident, but dangerous just the same. I even disbudded my Boers due to the safety issue because I did milk them and had grand kids coming around. I was not going to take a chance on one of the 2 legged kids getting an accidental horn poke to the eye.

ADGA's reasoning is for safey of the handlers.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I had a buck almost bust my leg once back in the 90's. Rammed right into my leg, just above the knee, it wasn't broken but it was fractured. 
That's the one thing by I hate about the boer rules, a horned one will be placed over the disbudded ones.

Or the ones with horns, if you are leading them with just a collar, they can hook you wrist or arm in between their horns and twist their head, snap your bones like a twig.

I don't care what it is, if they have horns, I want them taken off!


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## caprine crazy

I like a goat with horns. Horns provide a good temporary lead if you don't have one. Or the goat is so wild you can't get one on them. Horns also provide goats with temperature control. Keeps 'em cool in the summer and warm in the winter. Yes, horns hurt when you are poked with them, that's kind of their purpose. Goats will use their horns to fight enemies and to establish herd ranking. I also think horns look elegant. I just really like the look of them. I have a horned doe, she's Boer, and I can't count the times I've been poked with horns. It's going to happen and that's something you have to realize when getting a horned goat, whether accidentally or not.


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## caprine crazy

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> I had a buck almost bust my leg once back in the 90's. Rammed right into my leg, just above the knee, it wasn't broken but it was fractured.
> That's the one thing by I hate about the boer rules, a horned one will be placed over the disbudded ones.
> 
> Or the ones with horns, if you are leading them with just a collar, they can hook you wrist or arm in between their horns and twist their head, snap your bones like a twig.
> 
> I don't care what it is, if they have horns, I want them taken off!


Boer horns are different from dairy horns. Boer horns are curved unlike a dairy goats horns. Here's a picture to show the difference. And as you can see, the dairy horns grow straight back whereas the Boer horns grow back away from the head so they don't pose as much as a problem.


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## liz

Great comparison pics Kayla!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Yes, I know how their horns grow, I have boers as well as the alpines, but they can still get you with them none the less.


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## NyGoatMom

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Almost all registered dairy goats are disbudded. The ones that stay horned can be registered, but never shown.
> Disbudding kids is for safety of the handlers, other goats and animals, and better overall. With a disbudded goat you don't have to worry about broken horns, injury to you or other creatures, heads stuck in fences, will they fit on the milk stand, and everything else.
> Disbudded animals are safer , and better looking(in the dairy world), and easier to manage.


Ok, I agree with everything except _better looking_  because I prefer horns....LOL


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## ThreeHavens

I disagree strongly with this. I don't care if you disbud (I do) or what your personal convictions are, I think people should be allowed to chose what is best for their herd, and not be unfairly discriminated against. If the horns are a safety issue, have it so they have to be penned separately. Don't disqualify them. Horns are natural, IMO this is ridiculous. And I do disbud ... it is what is best for my particular herd and my situation. But it's not what's best for everyone. I feel they are forcing their personal beliefs and practices on others, and it's not right.

Sorry, I'd best get off my soap box now.


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## TDG-Farms

I not only fully agree with the rule they have to be dis budded to show but I wouldnt have horns even if it were ok. It eliminates unneeded risks. Its not only safer for people and other animals but its safer for the dis budded goat. As mentioned, they can get their heads stuck in fences. If you are lucky to find em before they strangle themselves then you have to cut the fence up to get em out. As for in the show ring, you dont see much fighting or even the want to fight. BUT a goat with horns knows they have horns. I would suspect the want would come into play much more often.


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## Trickyroo

I agree with you Danielle . And I agree with the reasons the ADGA enforces the "no horns permitted" in the show ring as well. I can fully understand the dangers of a horned goat ramming ( accidentally ) into the back end of the goat in front of them and doing massive damage to that ones udder or other body parts. Show career , possibly its life , is over. Goats get loose , run scared at the shows too. 
Its just safer all around IMO because of so many goats in one place. The risk of someone getting hurt is great. I totally agree though , its a natural part of their anatomy and it can be so regal looking as well. And it serves a purpose too.
I would like to hear the explanation given by the ADGA when this rule was first enforced. I dont know anything about it , so I would be very interested in knowing when this rule was enforced and all that jazz. 
Im happy with my goats disbudded  Less of chance of anybody and anything getting hurt here. JMO. But do I look forward to learning how to disbud ? 
Heck no !! But it has to be done. I wont be doing it any time soon though.
That's where the vet comes in


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## LamanchaAcres

I like the no horns rule. Like others said when a goat has horns, they know they have them. They will use them , even if its not on purpose. To me it makes them look cleaner. When shaved and disbuded they look more correct in shows. Personally i dont desire them either. I think dairy goats look kinda odd with horns but i like horns on boers. Even thou i only have 1 polled boer wether i still like the look of boers with their horns but personally would not have them


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I love the no horn rule with dairy goats. Any goat I have had with horns, has been wicked with them. They know they have them and love to use them. Some of my Alpines have been wicked enough without horns, and my boers are awful with their horns. I'm planning on taking them off of the ones I'm keeping for brood and not shows.


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## LadySecret

I perfer hornless as well. I don't have to worry about kids playing with the goats and getting hurt by them. I have one goat with horns right now. She's a tiny nigerian dwarf and she will ram anything. Have you ever seen a tiny goat chase a mini horse before? Ram a cat? I had to move the mini horses and the cats wont go near the goat pen anymore. She's not the boss but I think she's right below her. She's only a yearling with smallish horns and I'm planning on banding them as soon as the tempature drops and the flys go away. None of my other goats act the way she does and the only difference is the horns.


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## audrey

^^^
My cats are not allowed anywhere NEAR My goats, and they are all disbudded. I think that its just that cats are clearly predators, and they just aren't allowed according to the goats LOL. 

I was holding my super friendly 9 week old nigerian dwarf buckling this afternoon, and when he went to jump away he accidentally nailed me in the face as he jumped away. Even at his young age, I was super happy that I had him disbudded, otherwise I for sure would have been injured!


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## emilieanne

I agree with the no horn rule for dairy, because of the facts that other people have stated. 
Dairy goats have A LOT to loose that a horn could ruin. 
I think that meat goats have a lot to loose also but most are really muscular and can probably fight off anything without horns. 
Yes, horns are good for protection but I've had an oberhasli buck and a nigerian wether fight off a bear & he hasn't been back since.... Neither had horns. 

I have had many goats with horns come around the farms I help out at and they have jammed my wrist, dislocated my wrist AND knee, sliced my thigh open along with my left arm. 
Keep in mind, these are all Nigerians. 
I do know that not all goats would do that but in my eyes it's not worth the risk..

It is very very safe to just have them disbudded or band their horns.


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## Stacykins

I nearly took a horn to the eye from my boer wether. Thankfully he only hit my cheek instead because I flinched just in time. Big, nasty bruise and cut. So my dairy goats will never have horns. The boer has whacked me several times, accidentally, and man they hurt. I can't imagine what a strait horn will do, since it is easier for them to wield them for strikes (accidental or intentional).


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## ThreeHavens

Trickyroo said:


> I agree with you Danielle . And I agree with the reasons the ADGA enforces the "no horns permitted" in the show ring as well. I can fully understand the dangers of a horned goat ramming ( accidentally ) into the back end of the goat in front of them and doing massive damage to that ones udder or other body parts. Show career , possibly its life , is over. Goats get loose , run scared at the shows too.
> Its just safer all around IMO because of so many goats in one place. The risk of someone getting hurt is great. I totally agree though , its a natural part of their anatomy and it can be so regal looking as well. And it serves a purpose too.
> I would like to hear the explanation given by the ADGA when this rule was first enforced. I dont know anything about it , so I would be very interested in knowing when this rule was enforced and all that jazz.
> Im happy with my goats disbudded  Less of chance of anybody and anything getting hurt here. JMO. But do I look forward to learning how to disbud ?
> Heck no !! But it has to be done. I wont be doing it any time soon though.
> That's where the vet comes in


Well said, and I do agree and understand, but I just hate it being forced upon people who chose to keep their goats with horns. I wish they could make a compromise ... maybe the horned goats all have to have dulled tips, or even tennis balls at the tip. And, I hate to say it, even if the horned goats have to have their own ring! I think they should be allowed shown.


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## Trickyroo

Oh I agree and forgot to mention I was thinking about horned goats being judged in their own class but that just sets the stage for discrimination IMO. Horned goats can't be judged in the same class as non horned goats ....yada yada....but to have a safety device on the horns to prevent injury could be possibly....idk. But could you imagine seeing so many goats with tennis balls on their horn tips , lololol


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## ThreeHavens

I know, the discrimination would be bad and it wouldn't be fair that they couldn't compete against the other goats. I think something at the tips could be an option. If there was a rule "horned goats must be shown by someone THIS age and up", maybe that would help matters? :/ It's a tough one. I just feel bad. I know of breeders who keep horns because they have very peaceful goats, on a LARGE lot of land. They keep the horns because it's natural, as a radiator, and as protection. It's just sad to me that they can't be shown.


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## Texaslass

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Yes, I know how their horns grow, I have boers as well as the alpines, but they can still get you with them none the less.


Aw, come on Lacie! she didn't mean to imply you didn't know I'm sure; everyone knows you're the goat expert, lol! 
She was just offering comparison pics for everyone to see the diff.

I personally agree with Danielle: I really like their horns, I think they look nice and I don't mind some of my goats having horns. I used to only want to have goats with horns; but now that I've had more experience, I think disbudding is MUCH safer if you're going to be in daily contact with your goats. And even more so if you have kids around them. There's too much chance of accidents happening.
And I really don't see why they should disqualify goats with horns to be shown. I think it would be nice if it was preferred that they be disbudded, but still accept horned goats occasionally. I mean, what if you have an awesome goat for showing, and you happen to miss disbudding for some reason?
Anyway, I'm not trying to reason anybody into my thinking; I 'm just saying how I feel. All the opinions make sense to me; I think it depends on your situation and experience, wether or not you have kids, etc.


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## KW Farms

Maybe there was an incident which gave ADGA a reason to make this rule. Or maybe not...but a lot of rules/laws start that way and I can definately see that happening. I think it's a safety issue when it comes to horned dairy goats. I'm kind of on the fence about if horned goats should be able to show or not. If breeders/owners want them horned, good for them, but I can also see where showing in the ring could be a bit dangerous for the handler, other goats, and the judge as well. It doesn't take much to cause a significant injury. I've had several horned goats and have been poked a time or two by accident. Sometimes just a tilt of the head and you get jabbed by a horn.


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## Trickyroo

Oh , the judge would have to walk around with body armor to judge those classes , lolol.
And so would the handlers for that matter. Just to be safe !
Scary thoughts !


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## ThreeHavens

NDlover said:


> Aw, come on Lacie! she didn't mean to imply you didn't know I'm sure; everyone knows you're the goat expert, lol!
> She was just offering comparison pics for everyone to see the diff.
> 
> I personally agree with Danielle: I really like their horns, I think they look nice and I don't mind some of my goats having horns. I used to only want to have goats with horns; but now that I've had more experience, I think disbudding is MUCH safer if you're going to be in daily contact with your goats. And even more so if you have kids around them. There's too much chance of accidents happening.
> And I really don't see why they should disqualify goats with horns to be shown. I think it would be nice if it was preferred that they be disbudded, but still accept horned goats occasionally. I mean, what if you have an awesome goat for showing, and you happen to miss disbudding for some reason?
> Anyway, I'm not trying to reason anybody into my thinking; I 'm just saying how I feel. All the opinions make sense to me; I think it depends on your situation and experience, wether or not you have kids, etc.


This is how I feel too.  And I'm not trying to force my opinion either! Different people with different views is what makes the world beautiful and unique. 

Lol, Laura! I don't think that would be the case, but that's a funny thought.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

NDlover said:


> Aw, come on Lacie! she didn't mean to imply you didn't know I'm sure; everyone knows you're the goat expert, lol!
> She was just offering comparison pics for everyone to see the diff.


Haha, I know it wasn't directed towards me, lol, just really touchy about horns. I don't care how they grow, I don't like 'em! Too many injuries from horns! 
I had a bull with horns once, he was about 4 months old, he wasn't disbudded, and had small but pointy horns, he was running around playing, gashed my leg up.
The buck that fractured my leg. I had two with horns fighting once, and one took the other's eye out. They weren't even mine I was taking care if them for a friend.
Then I've had a disbudded goat fighting with a horned goat, both the same size, but the horned one hooked her leg and darn near broke it.

To many problems that I can avoid by preventing then from ever having horns.

I have two 2 month old boer kids right now, they are bottle kids, but the doe is just wicked with them already. She rams into things, gigs them, gets her horns under the bellies and flip a them around. Just a wicked little thing.
I disbud the alpines, and they never act that way, I leave the horns on the boers, and they are awful.

So I decided a long time ago, I disbud everything, and I live a lot longer! :ROFL:


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## NyGoatMom

Boy, I can see there are definitely strong opinions on horns or not  I think for showing...it is safer to have no horns...there is so much liability now for people having all those animals in one place....and anything could happen. I think if they were to allow horned goats, it would have to be a separate area for sure, and age qualifications.
Anyway, as for me...I prefer them with horns like God gave 'em. If one proved dangerous with them, I would either remove them then, or cull that goat and send it to freezer camp. I wouldn't wanna breed a meanie anyhow....

As for dogs and other animals..._Leave the freakin' goats alone, stupid!_ 
But seriously, my dogs are kept away from my goats...because I don't want the goats stressed out.

But then again, I don't show, don't intend to so i am spouting about something I know nothing about


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## Texaslass

KW Farms said:


> It doesn't take much to cause a significant injury. I've had several horned goats and have been poked a time or two by accident. Sometimes just a tilt of the head and you get jabbed by a horn.





Little-Bits-n-Pieces- ADG; said:


> Haha, I know it wasn't directed towards me, lol, just really touchy about horns. I don't care how they grow, I don't like 'em! Too many injuries from horns!
> I had a bull with horns once, he was about 4 months old, he wasn't disbudded, and had small but pointy horns, he was running around playing, gashed my leg up.
> The buck that fractured my leg. I had two with horns fighting once, and one took the other's eye out. They weren't even mine I was taking care if them for a friend.
> Then I've had a disbudded goat fighting with a horned goat, both the same size, but the horned one hooked her leg and darn near broke it.
> 
> To many problems that I can avoid by preventing then from ever having horns.


I know that's true! I know horns can be dangerous! I've got a scar on my face right below my left eye because I was holding a doeling once, she tried to get up suddenly, and just whammed her horn right into my face! I could hear it hit bone, and it bled a lot for a short while. 
Totally unintentional on her part, but still very scary.
So I totally understand how dangerous they can be; in fact I'm probably going to order a disbudding iron very soon.


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## Texaslass

The doeling was a mini Alpine, and her horns stuck straight back, perfect for skewering eyeballs. 
Some goats horns aren't shaped that way; I'd feel a lot better about the ones like that.


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## Trickyroo

I couldnt have as many goats as I have now with horns.
I know I would be a shish kabob by now for sure , lol
I like walking into my paddocks not having to worry about watching my back . I wouldnt want to have to have that worry , I like to know I can have visitors here and they can mingle with the goats and enjoy them.
When asked about their not having horns , I educate them why they dont and also why they are useful for the goats. I also like to see people's faces when I ask them to try to "push" a goat out of their way , lol I tell them a dog will move out of your way but a goat , nahhhh , YOU walk around THEM , lol My goats just look at them like " you talkin ta me" , lolol Mostly everybody that leaves here after spending time with my goats see them in a better light then just "dumb farm animals" that eat everything. But there are always some that "just dont get it". You cant fix stupid , right 
I dont mean that , some just dont see farm animals as the same as our domesticated animals such as dogs , cats , and such.
Their loss


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## ThreeHavens

NyGoatMom said:


> If one proved dangerous with them, I would either remove them then, or cull that goat and send it to freezer camp. I wouldn't wanna breed a meanie anyhow....
> 
> As for dogs and other animals..._Leave the freakin' goats alone, stupid!_
> But seriously, my dogs are kept away from my goats...because I don't want the goats stressed out.
> 
> But then again, I don't show, don't intend to so i am spouting about something I know nothing about


:thumb: I don't stand for meanies anyway. If I was to have horns, I would understand, of course, accidents happen and there is more of a risk, but there are benefits too. For some the risks outway the benefits. For some others, the benefits outway the risks.



Trickyroo said:


> I couldnt have as many goats as I have now with horns.
> I know I would be a shish kabob by now for sure , lol
> I like walking into my paddocks not having to worry about watching my back . I wouldnt want to have to have that worry , I like to know I can have visitors here and they can mingle with the goats and enjoy them.
> When asked about their not having horns , I educate them why they dont and also why they are useful for the goats. I also like to see people's faces when I ask them to try to "push" a goat out of their way , lol I tell them a dog will move out of your way but a goat , nahhhh , YOU walk around THEM , lol My goats just look at them like " you talkin ta me" , lolol Mostly everybody that leaves here after spending time with my goats see them in a better light then just "dumb farm animals" that eat everything. But there are always some that "just dont get it". You cant fix stupid , right
> I dont mean that , some just dont see farm animals as the same as our domesticated animals such as dogs , cats , and such.
> Their loss


Yep, that's my reasoning too! Having my goats disbudded also makes them more sellable, because I know I can't keep them all forever. Heaven forbid, for some reason, if I have to liquidate my herd, it will be easier finding all my precious babes homes 'round here with bald heads. 

But this has become a horns/no horns debate! :laugh: Man, it's like the bottle baby/dam-raised and method of castration debates. Can't mention it without a few sparks flying.


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## Trickyroo

Oh , I was just enjoying the thread , i dont want to create any spark flying  But you are definitely right about rehoming goats without horns being way easier , IMO. I passed on alot of goats around my end ( thank God ) because they had horns ! I couldnt bring any home with horns , it would be like throwing a monkey wrench into a well oiled machine  lolol.. But I do love how 'some' look with them , so regal !


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## ThreeHavens

Oh no, I wasn't talking about you! Just laughing because it's such a very strong and sensitive topic.


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## Dani-1995

I think horns or disbudded should be a personal choice. If you dont like horns then disbud. If you do then don't. Personally, I think it is a little too in someones business to say goats have to be disbudded to be shown. I also think if people want to show disbudded boers they should be allowed too without discrimination. Theyre a meat breed- we don't eat the horns so it shouldn't matter unless horns are harming the animal with their shape and curvature.


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## ThreeHavens

Well said, Dani! :clap:


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## NyGoatMom

ThreeHavens said:


> :thumb: I don't stand for meanies anyway. If I was to have horns, I would understand, of course, accidents happen and there is more of a risk, but there are benefits too. For some the risks outway the benefits. For some others, the benefits outway the risks


Yep, I feel it's personal choice what you wanna deal with. I prefer (for now) to take the risk....I may not however if I had a large herd on pasture....right now mine are drylotted and in my sight whenever I care to see them....and I only have a few....plus, I am a stay at home mom so I am here most of the time! Everyone's situation is different as is every goat different...


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## nchen7

my one goat doesn't use her horns on me......she bites instead..... lol


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## Trickyroo

nchen7 said:


> my one goat doesn't use her horns on me......she bites instead..... lol


Oh owww !


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## Trickyroo

Dani-1995 said:


> I think horns or disbudded should be a personal choice. If you dont like horns then disbud. If you do then don't. Personally, I think it is a little too in someones business to say goats have to be disbudded to be shown. I also think if people want to show disbudded boers they should be allowed too without discrimination. Theyre a meat breed- we don't eat the horns so it shouldn't matter unless horns are harming the animal with their shape and curvature.


Dani !!! Where ya been


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## Dani-1995

Trickyroo said:


> Dani !!! Where ya been


Working! I started an internship at a hog farm and I work 5am-4pm most days and when I am home I'm still working. Im finally getting into the swing of things again lol! I've missed TGS some kind of bad!


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## ThreeHavens

nchen7 said:


> my one goat doesn't use her horns on me......she bites instead..... lol


One of my bucklings ran up to me and scratched his teeth on my leg today. I didn't know what his deal was, until I realized that today I gave their dewormer without molasses, and he was tasting that cayenne. :laugh:


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## nchen7

^^ hahaha!!

yesterday, I found a large intact guava on the ground, and put it in my pocket so we can have the first guava of the season. well, the goats thought they wanted some, stuck their noses in my pocket and took some bites. so I gave in, and gave them the guava. gave my herd queen, Buttercup a couple bites, then gave some to Missy (very timid). Missy inhaled what was left and ran off chewing. Buttercup looked at me as if to say "are you serious??? you let HER eat the rest of it?????", sniffed my hand, licked my fingers, and BIT THEM! stinker!


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## Texaslass

nchen7 said:


> ^^ hahaha!!
> 
> yesterday, I found a large intact guava on the ground, and put it in my pocket so we can have the first guava of the season. well, the goats thought they wanted some, stuck their noses in my pocket and took some bites. so I gave in, and gave them the guava. gave my herd queen, Buttercup a couple bites, then gave some to Missy (very timid). Missy inhaled what was left and ran off chewing. Buttercup looked at me as if to say "are you serious??? you let HER eat the rest of it?????", sniffed my hand, licked my fingers, and BIT THEM! stinker!


 My goats do that! Today my little Ella (my preg. ND doe) was chewing on my fingers. I'm not sure why... I thought maybe she was trying to get something out of them.. Maybe she's having a craving, lol!


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## ThreeHavens

I think our hands may be in their blind spot under their noses. So they smell a treat or tasty something on the fingers, and don't realize it is actually the finger that they're chowing down on.


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## nchen7

good point Danielle - never thought of that!


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## ThreeHavens

Either that or we have cannibalistic goaties. ;D


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## nchen7

^^ HAHAHAH!!! she didn't break skin....this time.....

she is mean though, she likes to bite the other goats - ears, bums, tails, necks. she's just a bully!


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## Texaslass

nchen7 said:


> ^^ HAHAHAH!!! she didn't break skin....this time.....
> 
> she is mean though, she likes to bite the other goats - ears, bums, tails, necks. she's just a bully!


We had one like that too; she had been allowed to nurse on her mama for a whole year (and her mama still had milk!)- she was much bigger than her dam as well, and was just a big, spoiled brat!  She hated any other kids -like little baby kids- that were around, and she was always biting at them.

After she had her own kids, she was a good mama for a while, but then she started self-sucking.  So it was hard to keep milking her since we had to tape her all the time- and she was an expert at tearing it off. She also weaned her kids off at like two months or less! Because she didn't like them nursing anymore.


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## nchen7

^^ stinker!!! mine's been pretty good, she's just a bully. likes her own space. I have a feeling she would be one of those goats that would be a good single goat. she doesn't seem to care for the others.... even her buckling, I've seen pictures of how other people's does snuggle with their kids...she doesn't snuggle with him. so strange!


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## CWminifarm

I have both horned and disbudded does at my place and honestly I love the horns, Mia never uses them and they are great leads.....but sadly this was not my choice, I bought her at 4 years old and I cant show her. I really love her color, stature, and just about everything about her. But alas, her horns prevent me from taking her to the ring. My other gorgeous doe Monkey is non-registerable. Mia will have to throw me a couple pretty babies again so I can start showing.


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## toth boer goats

She is a nice doe.

This is a really old thread.


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## Damfino

This is an old thread, but this topic sure gets my blood up! I agree with the folks who think the horns/disbudding choice should be left up to the discretion of the owner and that horned goats should be allowed to show. One of these days I'm going to get up the gumption (and the time!) to start working on a rule change petition to ADGA. I would love to leave horns on my ladies like I do with my boys. Many packgoat breeders leave horns on their does (most of whom are from dairy goat lines, and now also from Kikos which have enormous, branching horns) and have no problems with gored udders and other horrors mentioned here. European dairy goats are often left natural and are allowed to show with horns. If they can do it safely there, why can't we do it safely here? 

I see a few folks mentioning the problem of wrists getting caught between horns when leading a goat by the collar. This is quite easily solved by using a halter just like we do with a pony. If you control the head, you control the horns. Crisis averted. Horned goats could be required to wear halters in the show ring. They could even be housed in a separate section of the barn so that people who are scared of horns don't have to keep their hornless goats near them. 

There could also be a rule that people under a certain age are not allowed to show horned goats, and that horned goats are not allowed in Round Robin-type showmanship classes (at least not for young kids--I see the value in having older kids know how to show a horned goat wearing a halter vs. a hornless one in a collar). People (including children) are allowed to show fiber goats with their large, branching, and sometimes even upturned horns. 

As for problems with goats getting caught in fences and feeders, etc. this is a herd management problem more than a problem with the goats' anatomy. If you build with horns in mind it's not an issue. As for goats stabbing and hooking people, this is a training issue. I don't let my horses trample me, step on my feet, kick in my direction, or nip at my arms when I'm carrying food. It's rude and dangerous. If I can train my horses to have good manners, then I can train my goats to behave themselves as well. Goats know exactly where their horns are so there is no excuse for them to poke or whack you with them. If you're handling babies who are too young to know better, wear eye protection and be careful. 

As for the history of the "no horns" rule with ADGA, it has been in place since ADGA first started, and I believe it was an attempt to differentiate dairy goats from the scruffier-looking brush goats of the time. We have to remember that ADGA started during the heyday of docking horses' tails, using checkreins, cropping dogs' ears, etc. In those days, much was done to animals in the name of fashion that served little practical purpose. It was thought that dairy goats should look "a certain way," and horns were not included in that look. I would love to see this change!


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## Goats Rock

A lot of the old timers in ADGA are gone. Maybe now is a good time to start the horned ball rolling. I'd also like to see black Oberhaslis as a separate breed, like Sables are! (Can you say, serious controversy?). :heehee:


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## CWminifarm

toth boer goats said:


> She is a nice doe.
> 
> This is a really old thread.


Holy Buckets!! I didnt even notice.... haha
I wouldnt mind hearing some "current" thoughts!


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## adrienne

TDG-Farms said:


> I not only fully agree with the rule they have to be dis budded to show but I wouldnt have horns even if it were ok. It eliminates unneeded risks. Its not only safer for people and other animals but its safer for the dis budded goat. As mentioned, they can get their heads stuck in fences. If you are lucky to find em before they strangle themselves then you have to cut the fence up to get em out. As for in the show ring, you dont see much fighting or even the want to fight. BUT a goat with horns knows they have horns. I would suspect the want would come into play much more often.


As you say, the ones with horns are well aware they have horns. Almost all of our girls have been disbudded. One of the bossiest does literally has one half of one horn due to a bad disbudding job. She uses that half a horn to the best of her ability! I've gotten bruises on my hand/wrist from her waving her half a horn around while I lead her.


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## Damfino

Well, to play "devil's advocate" here, the only goat I ever had to cull for terrible, dangerous behavior was a polled doe. She was sweet as pie to people, but she was horrible to my other goats. She hit one doe so hard she caused her to abort, she chased another doe into the electric fence where she probably would have died from electric shock and/or entanglement had I not been there to see the whole thing, and she was merciless to my gentle livestock guardian dog. She'd trample the dog, pin her down, and pull out mouthfuls of the poor dog's hair. So no, it's not necessarily all about horns. 

I sometimes wonder, if disbudding were not widely practiced, if breeders would be better at culling dangerous goats from their bloodlines and produce overall safer, gentler animals.


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## Damfino

adrienne said:


> One of the bossiest does literally has one half of one horn due to a bad disbudding job. She uses that half a horn to the best of her ability! I've gotten bruises on my hand/wrist from her waving her half a horn around while I lead her.


^ This is a training issue. If she were a pony, would you allow her to toss her head around and whack you with it? I've seen horses that did this to humans (usually children) on purpose, and it's quite dangerous so we train them not to behave that way. Goats sometimes need to be trained to behave themselves too.

I find that using a halter is the easiest way to manage a goat that likes to use its horns/head as a weapon on people, but with patient, firm, and consistent handling you can also train them to lead nicely with a collar. I'm currently working on collar handling with my big goat, Sputnik. He doesn't use his horns to hook people, but when I grab his collar he likes to lean into it and yank me around, and sometimes he wants to shake his head, which is very dangerous because of his horns. We're practicing good manners while leading by the collar because he's not always wearing a halter when I need to lead him through a gate or something.


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## adrienne

Damfino said:


> Well, to play "devil's advocate" here, the only goat I ever had to cull for terrible, dangerous behavior was a polled doe. She was sweet as pie to people, but she was horrible to my other goats. She hit one doe so hard she caused her to abort, she chased another doe into the electric fence where she probably would have died from electric shock and/or entanglement had I not been there to see the whole thing, and she was merciless to my gentle livestock guardian dog. She'd trample the dog, pin her down, and pull out mouthfuls of the poor dog's hair. So no, it's not necessarily all about horns.
> 
> I sometimes wonder, if disbudding were not widely practiced, if breeders would be better at culling dangerous goats from their bloodlines and produce overall safer, gentler animals.


Imagine what a terror she'd be if she had horns!
We kept goats for about 5 years before buying a disbudding iron and we absolutely culled the most vicious ones. We still do. Your mean girl sounds a little like one we had named Spotty. I remember seeing Spotty pick our cat up in her mouth and toss her across the barn.


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## adrienne

Damfino said:


> ^ This is a training issue. If she were a pony, would you allow her to toss her head around and whack you with it? I've seen horses that did this to humans (usually children) on purpose, and it's quite dangerous so we train them not to behave that way. Goats sometimes need to be trained to behave themselves too.
> 
> I find that using a halter is the easiest way to manage a goat that likes to use its horns/head as a weapon on people, but with patient, firm, and consistent handling you can also train them to lead nicely with a collar. I'm currently working on collar handling with my big goat, Sputnik. He doesn't use his horns to hook people, but when I grab his collar he likes to lean into it and yank me around, and sometimes he wants to shake his head, which is very dangerous because of his horns. We're practicing good manners while leading by the collar because he's not always wearing a halter when I need to lead him through a gate or something.


We lead all of our goats on halters every day out to pasture. We have a rope with 5 clips evenly spaced. She waves her head around when she's on a lead connected to 4 other goats and the others aren't walking fast enough for her. Walking alone she never does it.


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## CWminifarm

adrienne said:


> As you say, the ones with horns are well aware they have horns. Almost all of our girls have been disbudded. One of the bossiest does literally has one half of one horn due to a bad disbudding job. She uses that half a horn to the best of her ability! I've gotten bruises on my hand/wrist from her waving her half a horn around while I lead her.


My nastiest goat Monkey is my ONLY disbudded goat. She will take my other nigerian dwarf Mia (huge horns)off her feet, and Mia does nothing. Monkey will also launch my 11 week old boer across the yard.....she is truly a JERK to them, not to me....Im the boss and all my girl know lol


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## Damfino

adrienne said:


> Imagine what a terror she'd be if she had horns!


Possibly she just would have been culled sooner and perhaps saved us all some heartache. Either that or she would have lived permanently with my horned wethers where she couldn't do any harm. We often let goats get away with a lot worse behavior when they are hornless because we think they are "safe" and we more easily take them for granted. If we can't retrain an animal or figure out a way to manage it safely then it's often best to put them in the freezer like I did with the aggressive polled doe.

I had a human-aggressive wether named Cuzco that I kept until he died at fifteen, but we had to manage him closely and never take him for granted or he could have hurt someone. He had one horn and he knew exactly how to use it as a tool, but interestingly enough he rarely used it as a weapon. He bossed the other goats, but he never tried to injure one, nor did he ever use his horn on people. His aggression toward people came out in body-checks where he would ram into you with his shoulder. The horn was never really an issue--he would have been just the same without it. Cuzco was something special, but I will not keep another goat with his attitude whether it has horns or not.


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## Goatzrule

I dont think horns should be allowed in the shows just like i am not thrilled that Geursney breeders wont be shaving their goats for ADGA shows. I would rather deal with horned goats in shows than a goat that has a fiber coat being shown but oh well. people will do what they want. I dont really think its that big of an issue to fight.


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## Goatzrule

I dont think horns should be allowed in the shows just like i am not thrilled that Geursney breeders wont be shaving their goats for ADGA shows. I would rather deal with horned goats in shows than a goat that has a fiber coat being shown but oh well. people will do what they want. I dont really think its that big of an issue to fight.


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## Damfino

Isn't the long hair of the Geurnsey part of the breed standard though? If so, there's nothing wrong with allowing (rather, requiring) those goats to be unshaven. Long hair is beautiful when it's properly groomed as it should be at a show. I wish Toggenburgs could also be shown with their silky trousers and back hair intact since long hair is a common trait for that breed. 

Other than aesthetics (which are subjective opinion) do you have a reason why you think horns and long hair shouldn't be allowed at dairy goat shows? Would it affect you in any way for others to keep horns and/or long hair on their goats at shows?


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## Trollmor

This is a totally unknown world to me. Showing animals, I understand it is nice to see others' animals, and to show others mine, but are there other reasons? If breeding, I do hope other qualities than the outer picture are taken into account, like health, temper, mothering, production, agility, and hardiness?

If the temper is an appreciated quality, horns or no horns will be of less interest.

Or is the reason for showing goats something totally different, which I have not yet discovered? (Ain't it extremely interesting to learn new things from all over the globe!)

Shave goats for a show?

For the daily life with our goats, horns can be both practical and unpractical, for example getting stuck in a fence or being able to fight off a predator. When butchering, the horns can get in the way, but if you find the right buyer, horn crafters can be a market. Personally, I find horns very decorative!


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## Dwarf Dad

Trollmor said:


> This is a totally unknown world to me. Showing animals, I understand it is nice to see others' animals, and to show others mine, but are there other reasons? If breeding, I do hope other qualities than the outer picture are taken into account, like health, temper, mothering, production, agility, and hardiness?
> 
> If the temper is an appreciated quality, horns or no horns will be of less interest.
> 
> Or is the reason for showing goats something totally different, which I have not yet discovered? (Ain't it extremely interesting to learn new things from all over the globe!)
> 
> Shave goats for a show?
> 
> For the daily life with our goats, horns can be both practical and unpractical, for example getting stuck in a fence or being able to fight off a predator. When butchering, the horns can get in the way, but if you find the right buyer, horn crafters can be a market. Personally, I find horns very decorative!


They don't really shave the goat like a man's face. They clip the hair real short so that the judges will be able to see every physical aspect of the goat.
Temperment must not be a part of judging, or the goats could have horns.


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## Ranger1

Shaving for show is so that the judge can see the entire conformation of the goat. I’m sure the “looking neat” aspect also plays in, which I agree with as well. 

In a show, you’re right-health, temperament, etc. is not taken into consideration, however, there is a separate program for production, and most breeders focus hard on temperament, health(including kidding ease), and hardiness in their breeding programs. Mothering isn’t typically looked at much in dairy breeds, as the majority of people hand raise the kids anyway.


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## Damfino

Temperament is somewhat taken into account in shows though. Not necessarily things like milk stand manners and good integration with the herd, but if a goat is unruly at a show, it will not usually place well. Not only is a judge unable to properly assess an animal that is misbehaving, but most judges will show prejudice against animals that are obviously being difficult. In my opinion that is a perfectly legitimate reason to knock points off an animal's score or even dismiss it from the ring entirely. I had to dismiss a goat from the ring at a packgoat show one time because the owner could not get it to cooperate and it was disrupting the class. I don't care how nice a goat's conformation is, if it can't cooperate for a five-minute walk around the ring, it doesn't deserve a place among the ribbons.

Shaving the coat short does help the judge to see and properly assess conformation, but a judge with a good eye will not be fooled by long hair. Many types of animals are shown with long hair as part of their breed standard, and judges are still expected to evaluate their conformation underneath the coif. If judges at Crufts can critique the build and movement of those walking haystacks we call Old English Sheepdogs, or the living mops known as Komondors, then I'm sure our ADGA judges could also learn to evaluate a few long-haired milk goats.


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## Trollmor

Thank you, both of you! Interesting. I might get influenced by my feelings for shows because of the behaviour of the Swedish Kennel Club (SKK), which gives awards to dogs who cannot breathe properly, or give birth naturally.

Am I understanding that the ADGA could contribute to diminish the disbudding by taking temper into account?

So you judge at pack goat shows, Damfino? Are you enough "far in" to discuss with the board other types of competitions, like agility, or maybe something to show the intelligence of the showed goat?

(And maybe a "Best Wagging Tail" Contest! For example let the audience vote.)


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## Dwarf Dad

Damfino said:


> Temperament is somewhat taken into account in shows though. Not necessarily things like milk stand manners and good integration with the herd, but if a goat is unruly at a show, it will not usually place well. Not only is a judge unable to properly assess an animal that is misbehaving, but most judges will show prejudice against animals that are obviously being difficult. In my opinion that is a perfectly legitimate reason to knock points off an animal's score or even dismiss it from the ring entirely. I had to dismiss a goat from the ring at a packgoat show one time because the owner could not get it to cooperate and it was disrupting the class. I don't care how nice a goat's conformation is, if it can't cooperate for a five-minute walk around the ring, it doesn't deserve a place among the ribbons.
> 
> Shaving the coat short does help the judge to see and properly assess conformation, but a judge with a good eye will not be fooled by long hair. Many types of animals are shown with long hair as part of their breed standard, and judges are still expected to evaluate their conformation underneath the coif. If judges at Crufts can critique the build and movement of those walking haystacks we call Old English Sheepdogs, or the living mops known as Komondors, then I'm sure our ADGA judges could also learn to evaluate a few long-haired milk goats.


Well said and very informative, as always.


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## Dwarf Dad

Trollmor said:


> Thank you, both of you! Interesting. I might get influenced by my feelings for shows because of the behaviour of the Swedish Kennel Club (SKK), which gives awards to dogs who cannot breathe properly, or give birth naturally.
> 
> Am I understanding that the ADGA could contribute to diminish the disbudding by taking temper into account?
> 
> So you judge at pack goat shows, Damfino? Are you enough "far in" to discuss with the board other types of competitions, like agility, or maybe something to show the intelligence of the showed goat?
> 
> (And maybe a "Best Wagging Tail" Contest! For example let the audience vote.)


Damfino does not "toot her own horn". I think she is very "in" with the pack goat association. Have you seen her blog? https://www.goatorama.com


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## Trollmor

Yes, I have seen the blog, but what means to toot one's own horn?


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## ksalvagno

Brag about yourself.


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## Trollmor

Aha, thanks! So I was right in thinking that he MIGHT be able to get a suggestion through. I really look forward to Damfino's next entry in this thread!  I especially wonder if it would be less dehornings if the shows allow horns. Here is a new thread about the problems with disbudding:
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/disbursed-kid-not-acting-right.204269/


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## Ranger1

I don't know much about dog shows, but I'm not convinced that dog judges can accurately judge a dog under all that hair. Experienced competitors know how to cleverly clip and comb a dog to make his conformation look different-to a certain extent. I wonder: do dog judges need to get their hands on them and feel the bone to know for sure? Serious question, anyone, please answer if you know, because I don't. 

There is a huge difference between dog and goat shows though. Goats are still doing what they are bred to do(produce milk) and the standards of a well formed udder help a goat to be able to be a useful production doe for years to come. 
Dogs, on the other hand, were mostly bred for intellectual work, and 98% of conformation dogs these days cannot intellectually perform the task which they were originally designed to do. Others physically can't perform those tasks, because their conformation has gotten so out of control(GSD, Bulldog, etc.) So I don't think goat and dog shows are even in the same ballpark.


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## Ranger1

Trollmor said:


> Aha, thanks! So I was right in thinking that he MIGHT be able to get a suggestion through. I really look forward to Damfino's next entry in this thread!  I especially wonder if it would be less dehornings if the shows allow horns. Here is a new thread about the problems with disbudding:
> https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/disbursed-kid-not-acting-right.204269/


With that limited information, nobody can say that what that kids is suffering from is anything to do with disbudding.


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## Trollmor

To get good ribbons in a show is not exactly a good ground for disbudding.


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## goatblessings

In answer to the dog show question, yes judges do put their hands on the dog, and also watch it "track" - i.e. move around the ring. Dogs are judged against the breed standard and the purpose for which it is intended. There are many other shows besides conformation - agility, herding, birding, and the list goes on. Really something for everyone.


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## Trollmor

I might have misunderstood the word 'show'. I have got the impression that it means to show something to someone, a judge or so. I never understood a herding test or an agility competition as a 'show'.

Still, to disbud a goat in order to get good results in front of a judge, that reminds me of bulldogs unable to both breathe and deliver, even with eyes falling out of the scull. I can see a difference in degree, but not in principle.


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## Ranger1

goatblessings said:


> In answer to the dog show question, yes judges do put their hands on the dog, and also watch it "track" - i.e. move around the ring. Dogs are judged against the breed standard and the purpose for which it is intended. There are many other shows besides conformation - agility, herding, birding, and the list goes on. Really something for everyone.


Thanks!

I disagree with your second part, but as it will derail the thread, I won't go there.


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## Ranger1

Trollmor said:


> I might have misunderstood the word 'show'. I have got the impression that it means to show something to someone, a judge or so. I never understood a herding test or an agility competition as a 'show'.
> 
> Still, to disbud a goat in order to get good results in front of a judge, that reminds me of bulldogs unable to both breathe and deliver, even with eyes falling out of the scull. I can see a difference in degree, but not in principle.


Nor do I count those as a show. Show is conformation, all others fall under the competition category, but really, it's just how someone interprets it.

I dare to say that most dairy goat breeders(commercial dairies falling under this category too) don't disbud with show being first in mind. Sure, a lot do, but for the rest of us(I don't show either) I think it's simply that the facilities for horned goats have to be a bit bigger everywhere to accommodate the horns, plus the inherent risk horns have to everything around them. The protection component doesn't apply to most of us, as the risk of predators is low, or them getting into 75% of our facilities is slim to none. Or we have LGDs.


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## Damfino

Trollmor said:


> So you judge at pack goat shows, Damfino? Are you enough "far in" to discuss with the board other types of competitions, like agility, or maybe something to show the intelligence of the showed goat?


Let's rather say I _have judged_ a few small 4-H packgoat shows. Nothing very prestigious, so don't get the wrong impression that I'm some kind of bigwig in the show world. 

I'm not at all "in" with the American Dairy Goat Association (ADGA). I'm a member, but that's all. It's much easier to influence local shows. For example, I've gotten my toes in the door at several Colorado dairy goat shows. When I first started showing, no horns were allowed on the premises at all. Period. But with a little finagling I was able to get them to relax the rules so I could bring my horned packgoats for demonstrations. I also started an obstacle course competition at the Colorado State Fair dairy goat show, which has turned out to be one of the most-watched and most popular events. I was able to persuade the lady in charge of the goat show to convince the show board to change the rules so that horned goats could compete in the obstacle competition even though it takes place in the dairy barn.

Admittedly, these are tiny, and fairly insignificant steps in the grand scheme of things, but I believe I have somewhat softened the dairy goat show people in Colorado and Wyoming to be more accepting of horns than they ever were before we came on the scene. All it took was bringing my big, gentle boys with their beautiful horns to the dairy shows so that people could see that horns do not automatically mean carnage and destruction.


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## Damfino

Trollmor said:


> I especially wonder if it would be less dehornings if the shows allow horns.


I absolutely believe this. The only reason I disbud my girls is because ADGA frowns on them, and since my girls are all registered, I want the people who buy them to have the opportunity to show, particularly if they have kids. Even with all its problems and politics, showing animals is a valuable experience for many reasons. It's a good opportunity to learn and practice good sportsmanship, to learn how to properly groom, handle, and present an animal for a judge (which can help you with salesmanship down the road), and to practice your own eye for conformation and movement. The more animals you watch, the more you learn which physical traits are good or bad, how conformation affects movement, efficiency, strength, longevity, etc. You will not always agree with the judges, but it's important to figure out why. Shows are a good place to evaluate judges too. We were at one show where you could always tell how the judge would place the class because she always picked the best-groomed goats. That's pretty sloppy judging, but it was a good learning experience. Yes, some exhibitors are able to fool a poor or inexperienced judge with fancy grooming. Good judges, on the other hand, know all the tricks and can see right through them. I love watching a good judge recite their reasons!

But yes, back to the point--I strongly believe that ADGA's stance against horns influences the prevalence of disbudding in dairy herds. I would love to see ADGA open up a wider umbrella by allowing horns, provided the animals were shown in halters and certain rules of decorum were enforced. There's no reason horns need to be dangerous in a show setting, but there's also no excuse for people to be careless about them.


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## Damfino

Ranger1 said:


> Nor do I count those as a show. Show is conformation, all others fall under the competition category, but really, it's just how someone interprets it.


Conformation and performance are very much intertwined. I don't like how too many shows (thinking of the horse world here in particular) have separated those two things as if they have nothing whatever to do with one another. The best shows are ones where animals are judged both on conformation and performance, but when this can't happen, judges should be looking at animals with an eye toward long-term performance.

With dairy goats, it's not just about how nice a goat looks as she walks across the ring, nor how pretty and large her udder is. It's vitally important for a goat with a large mammary to also have excellent attachments plus a large body and strong legs to support the weight of that big udder. Otherwise she is liable to break down after a few short years. I don't like it when judges prefer huge udders combined with refined bone structure and dainty, "feminine" features. In the case of huge udders, I think it's better if the goat looks like a bit of a tank. That's one of the things I really appreciate about the LaMancha and Toggenburg breeds. They tend to have stronger, heavier bone structure and better leg conformation than many of the other breeds. They look like they are built to last.


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## Trollmor

Thanks, Damfino! I begin to wish for new classes: Aged goats. Agility. Tricks. Milking competitions (like in earlier Sweden). Or classes for horned goats!

If any of you manage to get or find something like that in your local shows, please let me know!


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## Dwarf Dad

I have never been to a goat show of any kind. I will have to search them out.


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## Damfino

Our shows often have milking competitions, and aged goat classes are also a standard feature of most shows. While any goat over six years old is eligible for the "aged doe" class, an older goat that is still performing often places over her younger competition. Such a goat's conformation has proven itself very objectively, so even if the goat doesn't "look" as nice as some of her younger competitors, if her body and udder are still going strong and she's carrying good flesh she will probably win. We also have dam/daughter competitions in which one hopes that the daughter is an improvement in quality over the dam. This is a way to help judge your own breeding program and your choice of bucks. 

Many of our ADGA sanctioned shows also provide a time for milk testing, which is when you milk your goats out three times, 12 hours apart. The second two times you milk, the judges weigh the milk to see how much the goat is producing in 12 hours. They also take samples that are sent to a lab for analysis of butter fat, protein, etc. Number of days in lactation is also taken into consideration, and the goat is awarded points based on all these numbers. A goat must achieve a certain minimum of points in order to be awarded a milking star with ADGA. 

ADGA can also track the amount of milk a goat produces over her lifetime if the owner is on ADGA's "milk test" program, where lbs. of milk and number of days in lactation are recorded throughout each year. This can be very helpful for all producers, regardless of whether or not they show. Any goat can be on milk test whether she has horns or not.


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## Damfino

Dwarf Dad said:


> I have never been to a goat show of any kind. I will have to search them out.


Most state fairs and county fairs have a goat show. One of my favorite goat shows has always been the Weld County Goat Extravaganza in Greeley, CO each April. It has dairy, meat, and fiber goats all competing on the same weekend in different arenas. It's a wonderful opportunity to see many breeds and all types of goats on display at once.


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## Trollmor

Wow, Damfino, that sounds just great! I get in much better mood!


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