# Wolves, Packgoats, and Goat Packers



## Bwana Ken (May 9, 2011)

Over the past several weeks I've read comments on other threads on this webpage where people have asked questions and expressed concern over the safety of goat packing in the wild (and not so wild) areas of Idaho and Montana, so I've decided to start this thread to see what people have to say. I am especially interested in hearing from people who have first-hand experience in this highly controversial topic.

Debate is encouraged, but please be civil to others who might have an opinion different than your own.

To kick off this topic I'm posting this video from KXLY News (Spokane). The circumstances of this wolf encounter are very thought provoking.

[youtube:6qgd6xbh]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4To_A1FyO8[/youtube:6qgd6xbh]


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## joecool911 (Jul 3, 2010)

I belong to one forum that has just about banned any talk about wolves. I think it's worthy of discussion. Although not sure about in the flea market section. Lol. Unless you are inferring that wolves are flea bags. This topic may be moved to another section. 

I am no more afraid of wolves than I am cougar. I believe that cougars are the main threat. As they can strike without any advance notice. Wolves move in packs and generally not so stealth.


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

Moved to "Campfire" section since it seems more appropriate than the Flea Market. 

On topic: I'm sure glad we don't have wolves in Colorado yet. I hope they don't reintroduce them. I know there has been talk of reintroduction for a long time, but it seems that the debacle created by these programs in Idaho and Montana is helping to turn public opinion. It sounds romantic to have wolves and grizzlies "out there" in the mountain forests. But let's be realistic. There are people and livestock scattered all over these mountains and wolves are not going to politely stay behind the wilderness boundaries and feast only on overpopulated deer and elk. If there were an easy way to control their numbers and keep them away from people and livestock I'd be all for it. But government officials and regulations do nothing but get in the way of proper management. The words "government" and "balance" have historically been at odds and don't look like reconciling any time soon.


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## StykbowMT225 (Feb 21, 2012)

Don Thomas gave me permission to use the piece below to my leisure. I don't mean to offend anyone, and I hope you get a laugh out of it. I really enjoy Don's writing, and if you would like to see more, please go to www.donthomasbooks.com

Thanks,
Doug

The W-Word
There, I said it. Wellâ€¦ almost.
Weâ€™ve developed a lot of linguistic shortcuts lately to help us express terms that leave us uncomfortable in their native state. First there was the F-word, then the now ubiquitous N-word. I recently heard reference to the â€œR-wordâ€ in the media, which left me stumped until I learned that some unfortunate celebrity has landed in hot water after using an adjective starting with that letter and once commonly used to describe kids needing an extra year or two to get through third grade.
In our societyâ€™s never ending quest for political correctness, it seems that weâ€™ll eventually have an entire alphabet full of forbidden words whose unpleasantness magically disappears when we reduce them to their first letter. If I were a standup comic instead of an outdoor writer I could have a ball with that idea, although Iâ€™m having trouble coming up with a Z-word right now.
But Iâ€™ve got a W-word that should resonate with us allâ€¦ Wolf. There. I finally worked up my nerve and spit it out.
Iâ€™ve written frequently about wolves over the last decade, in this space and elsewhere about the outdoor press. My aim was always to strike a workable middle ground in an increasingly rancorous debate, based on a few apparently obvious principles: some number of wolves were here to stay like it or not, too many wolves promised a wildlife disaster worse than no wolves, endless rounds of litigation by wolf recovery advocates were not in the interest of anyone except attorneys. My conclusionâ€"that wolves should be de-listed and managed as game animalsâ€"may not have been as obvious, but it reflected these principles.
And my, did I hear about it! I think the hate mail started the instant I touched the â€œWâ€ on my keyboard. Interestingly, the high-pitched, occasionally F-word laced criticism was almost evenly divided between those who wanted to glorify wolves and those who wanted to kill them all, which, in a backhanded way, convinced me I was doing the job Iâ€™d set out to do.
But the nastiest letters consistently came from hunters concerned about declining elk numbers in areas where wolves have been re-introduced, this despite the fact that Iâ€™d openly called for de-listing and legalizing wolf hunting. These letters left me with the impression that their writers never bothered to read beyond the W-word, and that failure is the real subject of this editorial.
Wildlife does best when managed according to rational scientific principles. As hunters, we can easily defend what we do according to those terms. Best science gets you healthy, sustainable wildlife populations. Raw, unfocused emotion gets you Bambi.
Right now, the original issue appears settled, thanks to some inspired maneuvering spearheaded by Montana Senator John Tester that de-listed the wolf by legislation and returned management to the states, where it belonged a long time ago. But other, comparable wildlife conflicts will inevitably arise. When they do, letâ€™s respond with our minds and not our raw emotions.
After all, there are only 26 letters in the alphabet, and weâ€™re going through them quickly.

Don Thomas


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## Bwana Ken (May 9, 2011)

Doug, good post. I talked briefly with Don T. at the PBS Banquet a couple of months ago. Smart guy!

Nanno, two things: 

First, thanks for moving this post to a more appropriate section (I need to pay closer attention when posting!). Second, I think Colorado is already in trouble: My brother, who lives in CO, told me that a confirmed wolf was recently killed by a car while crossing I-70. It might have just been a wanderer, but the consensus among biologists seems to be that the Wyoming wolves are migrating south and established packs will soon be snacking on Colorado's wildlife and, as you pointed out, domestic-life (including goats!).

For those of you reading this post who do not live in the Pacific Northwest, especially the "wolf states" of MT, ID, & WY, I can't tell you how divisive this issue is and emotions are running very high on both sides.

I'm not really interested in debating whether or not we should have wolves in our mountains as that is a subject beyond the scope of the Packgoat Forum. Instead, I want to know what threat the wolves have (if any) to us as goat packers and what actions we should take to ensure the safety of our goats while packing with them in remote areas.

Is it safe to leave goats tied up in camp while we go off hunting or fishing? How do we make sure they're safe at night while we are sleeping inside a closed tent? Is there danger from wolves while hiking on the trail in broad daylight (the above video seems to imply that is a possibility)? Should we all be carrying firearms on us while goat packing to ward off a possible attack?

I understand that wolves aren't the only predator in the woods. Just last night I spoke to another Forum member who recently lost 3 goats to a cougar. And bears are notorious killers of young deer and elk, so there's no reason to think that they wouldn't take a goat if they had a chance. But wolves are relatively new on the scene and many people feel that they pose the biggest threat to us as goat packers, so how do we continue to enjoy this pursuit while keeping ourselves and our goats safe?


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## StykbowMT225 (Feb 21, 2012)

I do think unnattended goats will be a serious draw to wolves and mountain lions. I have to think that a human presense would deter both of these species. The only thing I really worry about at this time is running into a sow w/ cubs, although I seem to do just that on a pretty regular basis, and have had only one real close call so far. I could be dead wrong, but I have to think if you are close to your goats wolves and lions should stay away. 

I seriously hope I don't have to retract that statement during the coming fall sometime...

Doug


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## joecool911 (Jul 3, 2010)

While I am not that concerned about wolves in regards to goat safety, they are another addition to the growing predator population and are making a huge dent in the elk population in Idaho. They hunt in packs, run elk up into deep snow until they tire and then kill them. Wolves much more so than other predators will kill for the sport of it.


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

Yes, I read about the wolf killed near I-70. It was eight years ago and it was a collared wolf from Yellowstone. I know they've been here for a while, but not "officially". My dad saw one in the remote area between Lake City and Creede back in the mid 1980's. In very remote areas like that, it's quite likely that we still have both wolves and grizzly bears that were probably never fully eradicated to begin with. But sightings are so rare as to be almost non-existent. 

I'm more concerned about introducing wolves that don't even belong here to begin with. I hear that the wolves introduced to Idaho and Montana are Canadian wolves, which are a species that was never even native to that area. They do well in a harsh climate with huge prey such as moose and caribou, but overpopulate quickly in the milder climates with smaller prey found further south than their natural habitat. I'm not interested in trying to maintain populations of wild creatures that aren't even native to this area to begin with! 

And like I said earlier, any time government gets involved in trying to properly "balance" anything, it's a first-rate disaster. 

As for wolves and goats, it was bad enough when my goat got attacked by coyotes a few weeks ago right in our back yard. He escaped, but I don't want to think what wolves would have done to him. It seems that, unlike a lot of other predators that attack the head and neck and kill their prey before eating, wolves will down their prey from the rear and eat it alive, sometimes leaving an animal to suffer for hours or days until it dies. Something about that just gives me a severe case of the heebie-jeebies. 

Last year, lots of people in my area lost goats to black bears. Occasionally we hear of one being snatched by a mountain lion. I'm personally not interested in adding even more predators to the top of the food chain, especially if it's going to be hard to get rid of them if/when they start becoming a nuisance. I don't know, but I would imagine wolves could easily become more dangerous than any of our other current predators simply because their pack hunting style might give them a boldness not shared by mountain lions or bears. They also aren't scavengers like bears or coyotes. They are pure predators like the mountain lion, feasting on fresh meat rather than roadkill, grass, berries, and trash. Bears and coyotes are "lazy" and will take whatever food is convenient while wolves are definitely hunters. I think this poses a problem for anyone with livestock.


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## Bwana Ken (May 9, 2011)

Wow! Glad to hear that Cuzco survived his encounter with the coyote!

You are right about the killing style of wolves/coyotes/dogs vs other predators like cougars and bears. I've seen movie footage of wolves eating prey animals that are clearly still alive and struggling. It's brutal.

On one occasion I was out hiking and came upon a range cow that was struggling to give birth to her calf, which was coming out "breach" and appeared to be stuck. The poor cow had 3 coyotes closely circling her, trying to get at the calf as it hung half-out of her body while she tried to turn away from them and protect herself and unborn calf. Fortunately the coyotes fled as soon as I showed up....

Last summer I was working on our archery range and found a dead doe with it's whole backside eaten away. I don't know if it was a wolf or coyote kill (we have both in this area) but clearly the deer had been in the act of giving birth when it was attacked and died from the resulting lack of blood and shock. It must have been a cruel death, because it didn't have any other marks on its body....

But I don't worry about coyotes bothering me when I'm out in the woods, or bothering my goats when I'm with them. Every coyote I've ever encountered (hundreds of them) has fled like its tail was on fire as soon as it saw me. Apparently that is NOT the case with wolves!

I've heard many first-hand accounts of wolves acting very fearless, and even aggressive, towards humans when they've met in the woods. One of the most chilling reports came from a friend of mine, who was calling coyotes in the middle of winter. To his surprise a wolf came in...then another...and another. He stood up to show the wolves he was a human, assuming they'd flee once they identified him. Instead they began to circle him, working in closer and closer until they were within 20 - 30 yards. At that point he fired a warning shot, which caused the wolves to pause, but they still didn't run off. He started walking slowly back towards his truck, several hundred yards away, with the wolves continuing to follow him until he was safe inside it. Maybe they wouldn't have attacked him, but they sure weren't afraid of him!

And that is exactly why I think wolves pose more of a threat to us, and our goats, than the other predators that live in the woods. Bears, cougars, and coyotes are top-shelf predators, but they've also been hunted by humans and they know we are dangerous and therefore avoid us. Wolves have NOT been hunted since their reintroduction (and, as Nanno said, this isn't even the same species that was native to this area) and therefore have no reason to fear humans. In fact, as apex predators themselves, it's only natural that they would consider us as a food source just like deer, elk, moose ... and packgoats!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I dont live an area where there are wolves, bear and very very very few cougars. Have a dozen maybe. We do have coyotes. But being the victim of many domestic dog attacks over the years at the farm I started out on, I will never trust dogs, coyotes or wolves. Seeing the damage domesticated dogs can do ( udders torn off while trying to run away or faces torn open trying to defend themselves) I cant even imagine what horrors a would could do. Wolves above all else I see as the greatest risk not only for humans and goats but for wildlife in general. Wolves are the only north American predator that when hunting in a pack, can, do and will chase down its pray till they kill it. Like mentioned above, they run their pray to exhaustion. Only one other predator that I know of can hunt this way and go figure, its the wild dogs in Africa. If you play the pros vs cons game with the wolf, they dont have but a couple of pros and a large sum of cons. Just my opinion and I dont mind if anyone disagrees.


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## StykbowMT225 (Feb 21, 2012)

Nanno,

I just wanted to comment on what you said about "Canadian wolves" those that are not native to this area.

You are absolutely correct. The wolves that were brought in are a species used to having very little to eat on the landscape. A moose a week could easily sustain a pack. Now we have opportunistic killers that have a plethora of elk to chase and kill for fun. The cow elk in some areas of MT are so stressed they abort their calves. I have had a lot of photo documentation sent to me of dead elk after dead elk, that has not been ate, but rather killed and left for sport.

Wolves in the NW need liberal management programs. They are here for good.

Doug


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## imported_ashley (Jun 9, 2011)

Everyone is on the right track here...being an Idaho resident and an avid bowhunter and lover of all wild things I can personally say that the wolves in my area are dangerous. We have had many run-ins over the past several years; we are in the wilderness more than most and have noticed a steady decline in all "prey" animals. Our elk hunting tactics have changed dramatically due to the pressure of the wolves. We have been circled by an uncollared pack; had loner wolves charge right into an elk call to investigate, and none of these wolves were afraid of people. The pack that circled us came within 15 yards of us while we were out in the open talking loudly and filming them and our last words....they had no fear of us..but we made it out okay from that. It is just so sad to me that defenseless elk, moose and deer are being slaughtered...my children may not know what big-game hunting in Idaho is like if this trend continues. We'll have to go to the zoo to see an elk.... 

For those of you that don't hunt and enjoy just being with your goats in the wilderness or enjoy wildlife watching, refer to my post on hydatid cysts

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1507

There is plenty of info online regarding these horrible worms that could, quite easily, infect our goat friends as well as bring them home to infect our family dogs and potentially our family. These worms are currently infecting our wild game..there are studies that can be found and many first-hand accounts with these worms/cysts. As a healthcare professional, I know of two humans that have came through the local ER's with parasitic cysts in their brains; on a recent radiology rotation the radiologist reported that she has had about one person a year for the last several years that she has scanned that had a parasitic cyst that was related to consuming wild game. This scares me more than the actual wolf...I can shoot a wolf that is coming in to attack but there is not much I can do if I am backpacking with my goats who are grazing in an area where there were wolves and they pick up this parasite that could kill them.

Just something else to think about...


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Id post that video on You Tube with a catchy title and hope it goes viral


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

This is truly a super charged issue. I am close to it and Rene Anderson is a close friend. The guy who had his dogs killed is my half brother. The emotions are more than frustration or anger. I'd class the local resident feelings as a fury over what has been done. This is probably the largest wildlife disaster of our lives. Just in our little area alone, we had a booming Elk and deer population with a multi million dollar hunting industry built around it that fueled the paychecks of most of the small towns in northern Idaho and Western Montana. Now it is all gone. We don't have thousands of hunters coming anymore and even the locals are traveling to find suitable areas to hunt and put meat in their freezers. Our local Elk herd dropped from 16,000 to a few hundred and biologists say we'll loose them all. Moose? forget it. How in anyones mind is this acceptable, wolf supporter or not? This is a classic predator pit where the uncontrolled predators take the game population to nearly zero before starving itself out. They will kill and eat each other until neither prey nor predator is left in any numbers. This may be natures way but we live here too and have the power to regulate big game herds to maximize the numbers for all concerned. We have been doing so for decades. Here is an article for anyone who doubt that wolves are not already starving in areas where they are not managed for a sustainable balance.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/22 ... r-20120522

Before anyone blasts the anti wolf tone I would recommend a little contemplation on how you would feel if your way of life and lively hood were devastated by someone far away living in an area unaffected by their decisions.

Sure, put them in Yellowstone and let them have some wilderness areas to roam in. We are OK with that. But, when they are running through the hayfield behind my house and killing pets inside the city limits something needs done. A hunting season is not going to do it either. The country is way too thick and the wolves too smart to make them selves easy targets. Biologists say that we would need to remove 30% of the wolves each year to keep them from expanding even further. 30% just to keep them at their already unsustainable levels. In order to get things back into balance they estimate around a 75% reduction in wolf numbers. This will be unacceptable to pro wolf folks who don't have a clue as to the devastation happening out here in the west. They simply refuse to believe that it is happening. We are all liars and bloating the truth. The most avid pro wolf folks will never accept anything short of the abolishment of all human hunting even if it means the complete destruction of thousands of big game animals, ranchers out of business and local economies collapsing. Evidence of this is seen in the lawsuits that erupted challenging the delisting even after the wolf population exploded far beyond the stated re-introduction goals.


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

Time to reintroduce their natural predators....Big Foot - hairy humanoids living off the land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_man


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## joecool911 (Jul 3, 2010)

The enviro's are taking over everything. Depoe Bay Oregon just had to cancel their annual 4th of July fireworks due to the study done on sea birds that are chased off their nests and come back to find their eggs eaten by prey birds. Cormorants are the ones that they are worried about. Crazy thing is, they are the same birds that are decimating the salmon smolts. Now the bio's will have to choose which groups to protect when they are working against each others survival. LOL.


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## joecool911 (Jul 3, 2010)

I keep saying that elk sounds are some of the best predator calls. Cougar, coyotes and wolves all seem to key in on them. That's why I always carry a side arm. 10mm with 17 rounds plus another 16 in another magazine. 33 rounds on my hip. Funny thing is, never used it for that purpose yet.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

joecool911 said:


> Now the bio's will have to choose which groups to protect when they are working against each others survival. LOL.


Your post reminds me of the Spotted Owl that was listed a long time ago promoting a hands off management style to prevent logging in sensitive areas where the Owl needed to thrive. Now it is found that the Barred Owl is displacing the Spotted owl. Completely natural selection, survival of the fittest and all that..... but what do the enviornmentalists propose? Why, killing off some Barred owls! What? of course the Barred owl isn't endangered so if the spotted owl goes away so does the hidden anti logging agends. Jeeeesh, and people actually send them money.

If the wolf issue ever gets resolved many of the enviornmental groups will have lost the goose that lays the golden donor egg! They continue to make millions by constantly stirring up the controversy.


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## Bwana Ken (May 9, 2011)

My wife and I have been spending $1,000 apiece every year for out-of-state licenses and tags to hunt deer and elk in Idaho. This year we will probably just save our money and hunt in Washington, where the wolves haven't made an impact yet (although they have already crossed the border).

But, we _*will *_ be buying Idaho licenses and wolf tags, so...Rex, if you don't mind we'd like to come sit out in the hayfield behind your house for a few days this winter!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Hell ya! Count me in! Ill help defend the front line


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## joecool911 (Jul 3, 2010)

I'd too like to go on a wolf hunt in Idaho.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

I can point you all in the right direction when the time comes.


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## CASDOG1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Part of the reason I picked the breed of LGD I picked is because I'm actually a wolf lover & a conservationist & I want to find _legitimate_ solutions to clashes between stock owners & wolves (& other predators). LGDs are still relatively new in the U.S. & very few people are well-educated in their use. Most stock owners are using too few dogs, or are using dogs which are not aggressive enough for our large apex predators, or are buying a dog from Farmer Bob down the road who happens to have a bitch & a stud that are intact, because they're cheap & easy to get. And for some reason, it's become "common knowledge" that you're "not supposed to handle" a working LGD, that if they're spooky with people they're better working dogs. This is absolute nonsense & has led to the failure of countless working dogs.

We need more education. We need solid data on how many dogs are needed for what type of terrain & predator load & species of stock. We need more data on the more than THIRTY breeds of LGDs currently in existence (there is a LOT more out there than just Great Pyrenees!). We need more education on how to research pedigrees in order to select dogs from the best breeders, including importing from other countries & going long distances to find quality dogs from quality working bloodlines. Stock owners need to understand the different guarding styles of the different breeds & they need assistance in selecting what combinations of dogs they want to use for the best protection possible. We need to educate the public on how to behave should they encounter LGDs with their herds on public land. We need educational materials for ranchers so they can properly train & deploy the dogs, breeders willing to provide large numbers of dogs from proven bloodlines, & a government subsidy program to help ranchers acquire, train, & care for the dogs.

Current husbandry practices need to be re-examined as well. The huge cattle operations where the herds are spread for miles in complicated terrain are not sustainable & there is almost no way to protect them even with a huge pack of dogs & a huge team of cowboys. There needs to be more honesty, both on the part of the ranchers AND the conservationists. Wolves aren't demons that just rampage & kill for no reason 24/7, but neither are they angels who somehow magically never touch all the slow, dumb meat we breed. They're animals. They act as their instincts tell them to act, but they are smart, & they learn. With the right tools, judicious hunting to cull problematic individuals, deterrent training, environmental management, & LGDs, a dynamic equilibrium will be reached.

I truly, honestly believe that LGDs are the key to this solution, & I am dedicated to bringing them to the forefront of the issue. I will _gladly_ donate pups to a subsidized program, & I offer _deep_ discounts to working livestock guardian homes (this includes anyone who wants a dog to accompany their pack goat string!), with lifetime guarantees of working ability, health, & temperament & lifelong assistance & support. I don't care if I never make a cent selling pups, so long as my pups go to good homes where they can fulfill their ancestral role as stalwart protectors of flock & family. I will answer anyone's questions, anytime, about anything LGD related, & if I don't know the answer, I will find you someone who does. I network with breeders & farmers all over the world & am absolutely devoted to the path I have chosen. It's the great passion of my life.


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## idahonancy (Dec 13, 2008)

Casdog would like to respectively disagree. It is not feasible or wise for many of us to own LGD. Goats are easy keepers at my home. I work a lot and I play when I can. There is no time in my life or space in my yard for more animals. Packgoats need to be protected in the wilds of North Idaho and Montana where we hang out. Taking a LGD on an archery elk hunt will never work. We hunt in wolve country. LGD are some of the most beautiful dogs I have ever seen, for that matter so are wolves. The reality is LGD are not a practical solution for me in this land of predators.


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## Bwana Ken (May 9, 2011)

Rex, back in July you offered to "point us in the right direction" when the time came. Today we were exploring new territory down in your area (Pierce-Weippe) but found too much snow to get off the main roads. Would you mind sending me a private message with some advice?

Thanks, Ken


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## TOU (Aug 18, 2013)

Just a quick note about these Northern (Canadian) wolves. My nephew is a professional hunting guide in Northern Alberta Canada. These wolves get big...really BIG! I believe the standing record was 175 lbs but I understand that it may have recently been broke by a 230 lb wolf! My nephew tells me that the former is more common than most people realize...and up north they are NOT scared of humans...leery at times but not scared.


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