# Boer nanny stealing another's kid??



## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

So we have 2 boers that were going to kid anytime.

Checked the barn and found 1 baby just about completely dried off standing with Tags. This is her second kidding. I think saw her push out a sac of water.

I quickly looked at touloulou and saw her rear end was bloody. 








Every time tags wondered away from the baby touloulou goes back over and starts cleaning him off.

It's about an hour later now and Tags has dropped 2 baby boys!
















But when the first little guy makes noise she again leaves the new babies and chases touloulou away!

I'm assuming we will have to make a pen for touloulou for her and her baby. Because the poor little guy is now on his own!

Help! Will tags look after all 3? Or will one be left out on his own? Touloulou keeps coming back to the baby as well!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

If you are pretty sure who belongs to who, yes, you should try and separate them for awhile. The one who wants to steal babies can come live with me.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

Well I'm not sure touloulou knows what to do. I've seen the little tank drink from Tags tho but not touloulou. She got milk tho. I checked...

Touloulou is the loudest goat we have. I knew something was up in the barn before I got there because I could hear her! And she does the same thing when she's not with the other goats as well. So I'm torn! Ugh


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Is touloulou an FF? She'll figure it out. It would really help to seperate the two does.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

Yea she is. And she's bottom of the pecking order of the herd.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Jezzie said:


> Yea she is. And she's bottom of the pecking order of the herd.


Don't give up on Toulou and her single. Isolate them together and check on them at least every four hours and get the kid on the faucet. It usually works itself out, but you don't want to wait. The twins on the other doe will do much better if it's just those two.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If you know she is the momma then, separate away from the stealing momma.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

My main concern is she's not letting him eat off her. Tags will tho...


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> If you know she is the momma then, separate away from the stealing momma.


To be frank I'm not 100% sure as I didn't see his birth. But touloulou has dropped afterbirth now and no other kids.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Work with her. Put them in their own pen and hold her and let that baby nurse from her.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with Lori.

I do see your concern, the other Doe is allowing her to nurse. If and only if, she has enough milk, is it even a consideration. She may be full of milk now but, how is she going to be when the kids get a little older? Or how many teats does she have?

Put the kid and her in a bonding pen by themselves. Hold the Doe or tie her up, then tie one of her back legs, the one on the side you will be working from. Put the kid on her teat. You may have to switch teats, so she is milked on both sides. Or watch and milk her, if she gets too tight. 

It is up to you on how you want to pursue this, I just pray it all works out.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

Have to wait until the boyfriend is home to give me a hand making another pen for them. But I held touloulou in place for the little guy to eat from and she wants nothing to do with him. The second tags come close to him he runs under and starts eating!

. Poor touloulou. Her baby may have been hijacked!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Is the other doe producing colostrum? That would be my concern; if she has just freshened like within 24 hrs of Touloulou at least stolen kid is getting the gold. But the kid is not going to smell like his real mama.
Another thing you can do if Touloulou is not accepting him back is rub her bloody discharge on his head & butt.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

nancy d said:


> Is the other doe producing colostrum? That would be my concern; if she has just freshened like within 24 hrs of Touloulou at least stolen kid is getting the gold. But the kid is not going to smell like his real mama.
> Another thing you can do if Touloulou is not accepting him back is rub her bloody discharge on his head & butt.


 They both kid today. So I assume they both have colostrum in. Tho the boy I assume is touloulou's has a very full belly!

I'm thinking we will end up having to bring touloulou into the garage and build a pen for her there.

I moved her boy away from tags to the other side of the pen (which is half the barn away) and tags was torn between him and her set of twins. She kept running back and forth and had scared touloulou away from her boy again.

Is this normal for boers??


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

SO really you are not sure what baby really belongs to what mom? I had that happen one year. 

I was gone for the day and I did not think the does were that close to kidding so did not put them in their kidding pens. Came home and found babies and and two does kidded. I had no idea who went to who. It was crazy. One baby we rejected by both mom's. I guess she must of gotten on both of the does afterbirth and smelled like the other doe so they said no way. Lucky the next day I had another doe kid and she took the doe with her babies.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

Well again I assume it's touloulou's because I saw her push her afterbirth out but no babies. 

Tags I witness the birth of both twins. She still has her afterbirth dangling.

I'll just feel really bad for touloulou if she doesn't get to be a mom to her baby because Tags is a bully!


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## Struyksrus (Dec 30, 2013)

Question if the one mother doesn't get nursed from at all can't it cause issues? For some reason that keeps popping into my head but I am not positive where I heard it from... If I heard it about a different animal.... Maybe even was told that myself after giving birth to my little ones....


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

Touloulou just keeps head butting her baby. Even after I rubbed her after birth on him... So now what??


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Jezzie said:


> Touloulou just keeps head butting her baby. Even after I rubbed her after birth on him... So now what??


Does the baby try and nurse? Hold her. Tie her. Whatever you have to do. It sounds like things might be messed up due to circumstances beyond your control, but if it was me, I would not give up yet. I've raised babies on does that never did like the baby ever. I've also had the doe change her mind and decide to raise the baby voluntarily. This little FF may just be confused. While she should have been bonding with her baby, she was instead having to worry about getting butted by the big momma. Her instincts got short circuited.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

I held her while the boyfriend milked her. Her kid is full from eating off the other mom but while he was doing that we had her boy near her to get her use to him. And she started to lick him and be nice to him. 

Tags still has issues tho! She's all over the place thinking she bends all the babies and isn't looking after her twins. I'm now worried they haven't had enough to eat yet. I haven't yet seen them latch in and they aren't near as active as the Lou's baby! 

God what a mess! Why couldn't they just have babies on different days and Tags go first??


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Jezzie said:


> I held her while the boyfriend milked her. Her kid is full from eating off the other mom but while he was doing that we had her boy near her to get her use to him. And she started to lick him and be nice to him.


The licking is very encouraging.
Ideally you should isolate Tags and her babies too. Keep an eye on that situation. Make sure Tags's babies are getting to eat. Hang in there. It's hopefully about to get easier...


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## Struyksrus (Dec 30, 2013)

If you don't see a baby nurse how do you know they are getting enough


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Struyksrus said:


> If you don't see a baby nurse how do you know they are getting enough


Their bellies should feel full. They should have good energy when awake. A lot of times if they are not getting enough to eat they will be pretty noisy and desperate to find a faucet. I sometimes wake up sleeping newborns and see what they will do and how they feel temperature wise. They usually (and ideally will) head for a teat for more milk. Full babies sleep quite a bit, so I consider that a good sign if they act right on the wake up test. When they are nursing it is a good sign if their little tails are wagging like crazy and they get a milk mustache.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

Update! 

Tags rejected the twins completely and we found one pretty well dead last night so we brought them both in the house to warm up and see if we could get some of the milk we got from 'Lou into their bellies. 

One little guy didn't make it . The other one the boyfriend was scared we'd loose to because we couldn't get him to eat so our son mostly co-sleeps... So the boyfriend put the baby goat in his bassinet! That way if it woke up and was hungry we'd hear him crying. 

So this morning our son starts crying which wakes up the baby goat and he starts crying as well. So I took the baby goat back out to Tags. Let her sniff him then put him under her and BAM he started drinking and she was licking him and such. He even peed! 

So I've left him out there with her as the temps are much warmer then last night and he's eating and walking around as well. 

I'm still sad about the other little guy.


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## springkids (Sep 12, 2013)

Struyksrus said:


> If you don't see a baby nurse how do you know they are getting enough


I have a friend that is almost 70 years old. Him and his father have raised goats and sheep on their farm all of his life and his fathers life. They know their stuff when it comes to these questions.

Anyways, I asked him the same question a few years back. He told me to watch them when they first stand up if they stretch and arch their back "like a cat" they are getting enough to eat.

Anyone else ever heard anything like this???

I don't know how that works BUT I do know these guys are my "go to" for whatever problems I have that I am unsure of. I always call my vet second!!

I also agree with feeling their bellies.


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## busymomx3 (Dec 31, 2013)

Sorry you lost one little guy . I'm glad the other is doing better.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

So the boyfriend checked on him a few hours later and found him huddle with Lou's baby but he was shivering and his mouth was ice cold. So he brought him inside again. 

Should I put a sweater on him and kick him back out?

Are we doing more harm then good by keeping inside?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

At this point I would bring them both inside, bottle feed and make sure their temps stabilize. Have them in or out, not both.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

Lou's baby is fine. No cold mouth or shivering. Tags was with both but the last of the twins was still cold. 

I'd like to avoid bottle feeding as much as possible seeing as he seemed to have no issues nursing just chilled... It's going back up into the + temps for the first time in Ontario in a bit as well.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Great advice given.

The reason why the kid is chilled, is because the baby must not be getting enough to eat.

With babies that are a having issues, I put a heat lamp out for them, until I know they are thriving. 
You can put a coat on them but, it won't do any good, if they aren't feeding often enough at night.

As mentioned, it is critical, you do not take them in and out of a warm house into the cold, it will make them sick.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

How often and for how long should they be nursing from the moms?


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

springkids said:


> Anyways, I asked him the same question a few years back. He told me to watch them when they first stand up if they stretch and arch their back "like a cat" they are getting enough to eat. Anyone else ever heard anything like this???


I have heard that "stretching" is a good sign in a young animal. I take note of it when I see it and consider it a "good thing" . Does it mean for sure they are getting enough to eat? I'm not sure, but I listen to ol' timers when they talk too.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Jezzie said:


> How often and for how long should they be nursing from the moms?


It really varies, it depends on if a kid wants the teat, that will trigger the other to run to the other teat, so they start nursing. 
Or momma will call them.

Moms, may stay there for a minute or just a very short time, it isn't long at all, it is so hard to put a time on it. Never had a watch near to time it, LOL

When they are just born, it is a bit more time, they will stand there for them, but, as they get older, the Doe will decide and jump off of them. If a kid follows her and continues to try to get the teat, that kid may of not of nurse or got much and may be hungry. Check the tummy. They will be very aggressive, but momma won't usually stop to let that kid nurse. Because she just fed them.


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## Struyksrus (Dec 30, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> Great advice given.
> .....As mentioned, it is critical, you do not take them in and out of a warm house into the cold, it will make them sick.


Someone I know puts weak babies in a box under a heat lamp in his milking parlour in winter and brings them to their moms to nurse then puts them back in the box. Once they are stronger or the weather is warmer he leaves them with their mom all the time.

Would that work?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I'd worry about them over heating, if they cannot get away from the heat lamp.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

UPDATE!

So I put a sweater on Lone Ranger (seems like a fitting name as he's the last twin standing).

I took him back out to Tags and put him under her and watched him nurse and left him.

Since yesterday I've been going out every 4 hours give or take to check on him. He seems to either be tucked in with Tank (Lou's baby) or standing up nursing under Tags!

I'm going to keep checking on him but it looks like she's accepted him back and he might make it after all!

So here's a few pics lol
















Here's Tank and his dad Judge.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Awesome. Good job.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

Question...

Should I be worried about our little guys as the temp is going back down to -16C as a high tomorrow here in Ontario! The low is something like -20C before windchill!

They are in a barn with plenty of straw but I'm wondering if I should put little coats back on and maybe rig up a light for them? Or should they be alright now?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes, I would worry.

Are they weak? 

I see the crooked legs there also, did they get Bo-se shot? If not they need it.


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## crownofjules (Dec 31, 2013)

Struyksrus said:


> Someone I know puts weak babies in a box under a heat lamp in his milking parlour in winter and brings them to their moms to nurse then puts them back in the box. Once they are stronger or the weather is warmer he leaves them with their mom all the time.
> 
> Would that work?


I did near to this exact thing but in the high heat of the summertime. I had the kid inside in the hottest pat of the house and brought the mama in many times of the day for her to nurse. Then, at night when it was near the same temp as the outside - we'd let her out with mama to sleep. In the a.m., we'd bring her in again. We did this, longer and longer, until she was showing signs of being able to tolerate the warm mornings into the day.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> Yes, I would worry.
> 
> Are they weak?
> 
> I see the crooked legs there also, did they get Bo-se shot? If not they need it.


Nope not weak at all. Running around like cute little fellows!

I'm not even sure what bo-se is or why they'd need it.

If I'm totally honest they will likely be going for the meat market :/.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

They looked hunched that is why I asked, but if they are doing good, they don't need Bo-se.

Bo-se is for selenium deficiency, it is used for kids that are weak or with crooked legs after birth or if momma is holding her afterbirth to long. It is RX drug.
Good to have on hand.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

Yea I'm going to call out vet today and see about getting some for the future. 
He's been pretty good about worming products and vaccines even tho he doesn't deal with goats often.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is good to have a RX outlet for sure.


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

Wish he did ultrasounds! If we want one we have to call in another vet who's twice as far away and charges twice as much to come out.


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## Struyksrus (Dec 30, 2013)

Can't they do blood tests to check for pregnancy?

Sent from my SGH-S730M using Goat Forum mobile app


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## Jezzie (Nov 12, 2013)

I think he said they'd have to send it out to someplace else. Plus they won't accept blood drawn by us. They'd have to come do it themselves. The charge for them to draw blood is nuts as well.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I hear ya.


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