# spotted boer goats



## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

We are looking at adding some spotted genetics to our boer goat herd ... has anyone taken that leap?


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

My friend has-we are excited!

We are sticking with the black traditionals and the blacks for now, but I think spotted or dappled is bright for the boer goats!

However, one thing to keep in mind is I don't think they win alot during shows--just that "old time, traditional" mentality right now. But breeders are bringing them and competing them-so it will just be a matter of time  Just my opinion-take that for what it is worth :slapfloor:


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

There was a beautiful dappled paint % doe at a Regionals show 2 or 3 years ago, I think she won Reserve. So its not all about 'the old times'. Just some judges prefer the traditionals because for the longest time the colored boers didnt have the mass to compete. That is changing!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Myself... my preference is ...they don't interest me....I have seen some beautiful spotted boers.... but ....not my cup of tea to plunge into them.. as of now.... 

My buyers seem to ask for paints or solids... to traditionals...haven't had a demand for seeing spots..... :wink: :thumb:


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

There are a ton of spotted boers in my area and I think they are beautiful. The only problem I have is people selling bucks at these high amounts just because they have spots/dapples. They don't band anything and they will sell any doe regardless of what her teats look like. Some people have gotten into the dapples just because they've seen how much they sell for and they don't care if they follow ABGA standards. So be careful what you buy and make sure they have several generations of dapples or spots. Even a solid red or solid black with dapples on both sides will give you dapples and sometimes they are cheaper.

I don't know if you've read it yet or not, but MAX Boer goats has an excellent page that talks all about the spotted boers and genetics


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

Heres that page that chelsboers mentioned, I love it.
http://maxboergoats.com/dappledandspotted.php


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

yes, if you like the dapples and want to breed them to better the quality than that is a great way to get started. 

But...just getting dapples due to the "sticker excitement" I think is a 50/50 thing to do. Myself, I would NOT get a dappled right now, although I think they are beautiful! I want something I can seriously show and a line I can get good steady $$ for. If you want to invest in some good breeding stock that sells well try black-they are HOT right now too. Even better if you can get 100% South African Black.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

Wow Max Boer Goats are COOL!!! I like the camo looking ones :greengrin:


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I love paints and reds myself. We have a paint buckling and I just absolutely ADORE him. My friend has a beautiful red buck and a young paint buck and they are gorgeous. 
I've never seen a spotted boer goat in person, but they sure are beautiful in the pictures, and just bring something 'different' to a very traditional breed. I'd think though, that in the show ring their 'flashiness' might mask some of their good features, or is that just a bad asumption? With that said I think if I had the opportunity I'd love to have one in my herd just because they are different


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

If you are going to do dapples and spotted you have to be prepared to look through a lot of junk first. Udder quality on them are often poor at best, You have to really keep length of loin in perspective, There are alot of really short onse out their as far as length goes. And pasturns can be weak in even the younger animals. 

I can't beleive the junk I see selling for 500 plus dollars, just because it has a couple spots and it's daddy had a spot. I will be sticking with the traditionals for now.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks for all of the feedback ... personally, my wife love the look of the dappled/spotted boers ... the prices on them are quite high ... with high quality does/bucks going for 3500+ ... here are a couple we are looking at as does ... thoughts?
http://www.lazys-tranch.com/Pages/Conte ... asp?pid=62


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

the mother Bon JOli is fish teated, you can see it in the photo. If that matters to you. I would find out if the daughters are clean teated 1x1 or 2x2.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:


> the mother Bon JOli is fish teated, you can see it in the photo. If that matters to you. I would find out if the daughters are clean teated 1x1 or 2x2.


I am having trouble seeing the fish teat ...what picture?


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

http://www.lazys-tranch.com/Pages/Conte ... =1&fsid=55

on this page, with her rearend facing the camera, you can see two bumps on her right teat. It is either fish-teated, or two teats right next to each other. Looks to me fish-teated. The breeder could tell you for sure.

Edited: wait not the mother, the doe above Bon Joli ZO48, BON JOLI/LAZY S-T Z046, she is fish-teated. I need to read names better. I am assuming that is also a daughter out of Bon Joli. Yes, these two does are full-sisters to what you are looking at.

I would just ask some questons about it. kNow what you are getting.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

I am a little confussed, maybe they have a mistake, maybe a flushing, not sure and I am no expert, but those four does, the two spotted does you are looking at and the two red does are all from the same sire and dam and all from the same month? I am guessing a flushing. But it interests me two are spotted and two are red. ???? Bon Joli ZO48, BON JOLI/LAZY S-T Z046


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

To me the first pic looks like a fish or split teat. But after looking at the picture next to it and zooming in I thing she has 2 teats on the same side. What I think you're seeing in the first picture is both teats and at that angle it looks like a fish teat.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks ... I see what you are talking about on the other sister ... I have an email into the breeder ... overall, I like the build of both sisters ... the one on the top a bit more than her sister ... any other negatives you guys/gals see in their build? what do you think a "fair" price is? Thanks.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

also, I think you must be right on the flushing ... the two sisters I linked were born on the 11th while the others were born on the 9th ... I have read that 50% spots is actually pretty good ... let me see if I can find some more information.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> the mother Bon JOli is fish teated, you can see it in the photo. If that matters to you. I would find out if the daughters are clean teated 1x1 or 2x2.


 Be aware... that with some camera angles ...the teats may appear closer than they actually are or look fish teated....in which they may not be... I have taken past pics of my 2x2 cleans that are well spread apart and at a certain camera angles... they appeared to be multiples ....which they are not... it was just the angle taken....

Also ...with the new Teat structure chart with ABGA registry... now except 2x2 separate that are real close together clean.. in the acceptable show quality category...... so the best way is always .... to ask the breeder what it actually is.... as we cannot assume from pictures.... :wink:

I really wish I knew... how they get those dapples/spots...I have always been curious about that... it almost seems like ...they needed to throw a Nubian in there...LOL :thumb:


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

there is a buck for sale also from that same flushing. Very handsome.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

what is everyone's consensus on the build of the does?


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

I like the does. If I was raising boers again, dapples would be what I would do. That is if I win the lottery xD

20kids- Bon Joli is a herdname, wasn't sure if you knew. heehe


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I have to say that I really like the spotted Boers. I understand that selecting for color can have draw backs, but still... Same thing for the Nubians and Nubian X Boers. I saw a Nubian X Boer doe on Craigslist and I sent an e-mail two hours after it posted and it was too late. Black and white spots. Pretty thick doe. They didn't have a phone number. I sort of whimpered like a sad puppy when I read the e-mail that they already had a tenative sale. I started thinking about leaning toward color after I read this article. This guy says ethnic buyers prefer colored animals. Among other things.
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/se ... tions.html


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

GotmygoatMTJ said:


> I like the does. If I was raising boers again, dapples would be what I would do. That is if I win the lottery xD
> 
> 20kids- Bon Joli is a herdname, wasn't sure if you knew. heehe


Yup, I caught onto that, the dam's name is Bon Joli Mariah(Not just Bon Joli), she must be a pretty doe, producing all those lovely doelings.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

the does are 2x1 and 2x2 clean teated


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

I've always loved anything from Bon Joli boer goats. I wish Fern Hollow Farm was still raising boers, they were some of the best.
Bon Joli, Fern Hollow Farm, CGL Farm (branch off of T4 Ranch, love them) and Max Boer Goats have some of the best dappled/polka dot/spotted boers.
T4 Ranch was I believe the original.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Yes .. I have be in contact with Carol from Bon Joli ... they formed a partnership with Lazy ST to put out some great animals


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> the does are 2x1 and 2x2 clean teated


 I knew they where clean....picture angles can be very deceiving.... :wink: :greengrin:


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Here is some information that one of the breeders shared with me ... it was very informative for me.

FEW HELPFUL HINTS FOR BREEDING

SPOTS, DOTS, AND DAPPLES


This is information I have learned from data collected over several years of breeding for dappled color in Boers, and from discussions with Dr. Phillip Sponenberg, one of the foremost experts on animal color genetics. Hopefully it will be of help to those of you just starting to breed for spots. 

Please note--I use the terms "spots" and "dapples" interchangeably here. Red spots on a white background also make a spotted goat, but that is not relative to this discussion. What I call a "dapple/spot" is usually made up of slightly off-white hairs with a few dark hairs mixed in, as in a roan. 

The spotting gene appears to be DOMINANT, which means that IF AN ANIMAL HAS THE GENE, IT WILL SHOW. It may be only one or two tiny spots, or it may be very noticeable. It can be difficult to determine if a little spot is just a stray white area, or is actually a dapple. If the animal has at least one dappled parent, and if it produces dappled offspring when bred to non-dappled animals, then it definitely has the gene. 

The only exception to the rule that the gene WILL show if it is there, is in traditional colored Boers and some paints. Many spotted animals have the spots located on the body, but not head and neck. Since the white color on a traditional pattern COVERS any underlying color, it is possible for a traditional Boer to carry the gene and not show it, until dappled offspring are produced. This is the most likely scenario for the gene to have survived in fullblood Boers. 

To breed for dappled coloring, the best results come from good red, black, or paint animals--as mentioned above, traditionals can pass the gene, but they also often hide the color. The following breedings show what your odds are likely to be: 

Dappled x Non-Dappled==50% of the kids will have some spots. 

Dappled x Dappled==75% of the kids will have some spots. Also, in some kids the spotting may be so heavy that the color all runs together, making the kid have a marbled look--pale body with a few dark areas, and darker legs, tail, and head. 

Homozygous Dappled==this is when a kid gets TWO dappled genes--one from each parent, in a Dappled x Dappled breeding. The odds of this happening in any Dappled x Dappled breeding are 25%. A Homozygous Dappled animal will produce spots in 100% of its kids. You only find out if you have one of these after you breed it a lot of times and all the kids are spotted. 

A few more observations that may help: 

A Minimally Spotted Goat can produce kids with lots of spots, and vice versa. Even full flush mates can have a wide variation in spotting patterns. 

A Dilute Spot is a pale area of the base body color--as in gold or tan areas on a red goat, or tan, reddish, or grey on a black goat. Think of bleach spilled on a pair of blue jeans, or of a palomino horse, which is actually a sorrel with a dilute gene that causes the pale color. Dilute spots occur frequently in Boers, and I used to think that they could lead to dapples, but had no such luck. They do occur in dappled Boers, and the gold patches mixed with cream spots is very pretty--Polka Dot was like this. 

Dark Spots on red kids just seem to blend into the red color as the goat ages. I have had quite a few of these, but in my herd they have not turned into dapples, or increased my odds of getting dapples, as far as I can tell. 

Roan (mixed light and dark hairs) is an interesting color in relation to dapples. Since the spots in a dappled goat are roan, it seems that perhaps the roan gene, plus some other genetic modifier, may cause a clumping pattern in the roan to form spots. This is just a guess on my part. 

Hope this information is helpful to you buyers and breeders. I have to say that the spotted goats have been a lot of fun for me--each day of kidding season is like an Easter egg hunt. Enjoy!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thanks for the info....... :thumb: :greengrin:


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## parkinsonfarms (May 11, 2011)

My friend has a 100% paint buck with only one spot on his butt and he throws spotted babies. That's how you know if they are out of Skye or Orion. Skye only throws Traditionals, Paints and Solids, but Orion throws Spots. However she does seperate to breed them. Anyway around here where I live we have a huge demand for Spotted goats.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks ... we are trying to find a new herd sire that will consistenly throw spotted kids ... that is a great buck to have! Here is one we are looking at ... thoughts?
http://www.circle3ranch.net/Pages/Anima ... nimalID=57

one concern is the build of the goat ... but, many of the bucks that throw spots/dapples don't have the great muscle that I see in other goats ... thoughts?


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## parkinsonfarms (May 11, 2011)

Orion is a great muscled goat. Gunslinger looks like a nice buck. Hope you find what your looking for. My friend let me breed my doe to Orion to hopefully get Spotted doelings in November.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks ... the price for a good spotted buck and go high really quick ... but, my wife and I sure do love the look of them!


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## parkinsonfarms (May 11, 2011)

Us too. My friend just had a little buckling born about 4 months ago and he will throw spots. She also had a really loud, beautiful spotted paint buckling born. He is to die for. Hope you find what you are looking for.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

very informative and cool to know! 

Reminds me of the breeding w/paint horses :greengrin:


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

I looked at Gunslingers pictures I think he is very pretty. I dont' see problems with his build--he just needs some muscling up IMO. Good feed and excersise can take care of that.


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

I've heard that most spotted Boers were bred with Nubians somewhere back in their history.. Does anyone know how true this is?


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Burns Branch Boers said:


> I looked at Gunslingers pictures I think he is very pretty. I dont' see problems with his build--he just needs some muscling up IMO. Good feed and excersise can take care of that.


Thanks ... we still are planning on using our red buck for traditional breeding, but, we are excited about the spots ... based on the fact that they won't throw spots 100% of the time, I am trying to find a good buck that will still produce good traditional kids with the spotted kids.

based on the pictures, he has nice length and a wide back side ... one concern was the narrowness up front, but, I think that may be more in the picture (I hope ) I am going to see him tomorrow and hopefully bring him home!


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Amos said:


> I've heard that most spotted Boers were bred with Nubians somewhere back in their history.. Does anyone know how true this is?


I have read that is a possibility and that makes the most sense to me ... the nubians really lend a graceful nature to the boer breed


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## parkinsonfarms (May 11, 2011)

My friends Buck, Orion, is 100% Boer and he is paint with one or two spots on his butt and he always throws spotted babies. Some may have nubian in there background but not all of them do.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

parkinsonfarms said:


> My friends Buck, Orion, is 100% Boer and he is paint with one or two spots on his butt and he always throws spotted babies. Some may have nubian in there background but not all of them do.


I sure hope so ... I am still amazed at some of the spots breeders like Max Boer Goats in PA breed ... they are stunning ... they really remind me of long horns


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

It states on Max Boer Goats page about spots, that since the boer goat is a developed breed, not an existing species, that it is definitly possible to have fullblood, 100% boer goats with spots, that don't have a lick of Nubian in them.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

My new buck that I am getting some time around Christmas is a spotted boer. I can't wait. The only bummer is I need January kids so I have to wait a whole year to use him.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

great news ... as long as plans go well, we will pick up our new spotted buck kid and then on Sunday a spotted doe kid ... we are very excited about the potential and I will post pictures when i can


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

SOOOOOO did you get those spotted kids?


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Last weekend was quite a nightmare .... we got up early Saturday morning and drove ~ 3 hours to the breeder of the black spotted buck ... long story short, we came home with the small buck kid and a bred red full sa doe ... when we first left the place, we had the doe we wanted and the buck kid ... they call me 30 minutes on the way home and tell me I have the wrong doe ... there was a mix-up on the tags 

I turn around and head back, the red doe that we "purchased" was the one that had a snake bite abscess behind her right ear ... i didn't notice how big it was, but, I was really worn out and the sellers were super busy, so, we swap out the does ... 

At this point, I am getting worried b/c she has an abscess, but, the seller has vaccinated for CL for the past 3 years and has had no history of any cases ... i call our vet on the way home and pick up a dose of Exceed to give her to help speed up healing ... finally get home Saturday afternoon ... we unload her and truly see how BIG the abscess was ... the size of a softball and ugly looking ...


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

We trim her hooves, dose her with the meds and spray down the abscess with iodine really well ... wearing gloves just in case ... we then placed her in isolation in an area the other goats will never go and away from them ... the buck kid is much smaller than I thought after comparing him to our others and not as good as we had hoped for ... we isolate him as well since he rode home with the doe with the abscess ... which, had RUPTURED already ... 

it was a long and stressful night, but, after lots of talking to our goat mentor and wife, we decide to call the breeder and return them ... so, the next day we head back up to return them ... fortunately, the seller was super nice and met us part way with a full refund ... they have since isolated both of them and cultured the lesion ... they are waiting for the results, but, their vet didn't think it was CL


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

After we get home, I bleach everything that came in contact with the goats ... burn and bleach the areas the goats were in ... after a couple of days, I bleach it again ... full strength bleach ... I didn't want any chance of it spreading to our herd!

So, that was a huge lesson learned for me ... no matter how tired you are, always always stick to your guns, don't compromise, if there is something that doesn't feel right, don't get the goat! My wife and I decided that we will make sure we are both there for any goat purchase ... I was by myself when I went this past weekend


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

so, after that beat down, we were leary of getting back on the "goat" so to speak ... fortunately, we did speak with the other breeders were discussing ... we were able to add a wonderful dappled doe from 4R and this weekend we are looking at a buck kid from Bon Joli farms ... thanks.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good for you.... :thumb: :thumbup: :hi5:


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks ... we picked up a couple of wonderful goats this week ... we added a beautiful spotted doe on Tuesday night ... unfortunately, our older does picked on her pretty rough ... we noticed on Friday morning she had a swelling on her belly just in front of her left rear leg ... just to the side of her teats ... it came up over night ... we think it is a hematoma or damage due to a horn, but, we are hopefully getting our vet out tomorrow morning to check her ... 

we also picked up a Bon Joli spotted buck kid Saturday ... he is awesome and doing very well ... we are excited to see what he will do


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

WOW well after that whole ordeal I hope things are getting better. I am glad you were still able to get a doe and buckling. Post pictures when you have time.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

RPC said:


> WOW well after that whole ordeal I hope things are getting better. I am glad you were still able to get a doe and buckling. Post pictures when you have time.


Thank you ... we were able to pick up the doe kid and buck kid ... now, I just need good news on the doe today and all will be good .... hopefully we can get some pictures up this week


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Can't wait to see those spotted kids I will show you pictures of my buck when I get him this winter. The breeder is going to use him on a few of her does then I will pick him up. I wont be able to use him till next year which sucks but atleast I will have him.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

RPC said:


> Can't wait to see those spotted kids I will show you pictures of my buck when I get him this winter. The breeder is going to use him on a few of her does then I will pick him up. I wont be able to use him till next year which sucks but atleast I will have him.


yeah, I would love to see pictures ... we are glad to finally have the whole ordeal behind us ... we are focusing on getting out girls healthy and filled back in ... we plan on breeding this October/November ... we just need to finalize our breeding schedule ... I will post pictures of the girl and boy tomorrow.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Alright I can't wait. My new boy has a black base coat but he is young and his spots have not changed to their final color yet but I think he will have some white and some tan spots but I am not sure. It is like a present that takes a while to open. I just home he is not just black and white I think that is boring. LOL


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug: Love to see those pics as well.... :thumb:


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I have waited patiently since the end of July and it is now the middle of September. How are those spotted kids?


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## FrankSandy (Sep 14, 2011)

Thank You l for posting the Link, Max Goats are Gorgeous!!! What a treat to go to their wed site.
Have any of you bought goats from them? If so what do you think of them? I have asked to be put on their waiting list for next Kidding Season.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I have never bought from them but if I had a little more money I totally would. Then have some of the best spot goats around. Most spotted boer goats are just pretty but have horrible structure, narrow, and short bodied but they have worked really hard to have some nice pretty and well made goats.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Wow, it has been a long time ... I apologize for the eternal delay ... I finally will post pictures 

Here is the buck ... he is close to 4 months in this picture ...he comes out of bon joli farms ... 









and here is a picture of our full blood spotted doe ... she has nice length, a little slight in frame, but, she is out of Maker's Mark/Logan Hill genetics ... she is from 4R Boer Goats ... she is still a bit timid, but, she is a beauty.









Finally, we are adding two 75% doelings this weekend also from Bon Joli farms ... both of these girls are red, but, come out of Lazy ST Copperhead


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Wow they are beautiful I still don't get my buck for a few months. The deal was the breeder got to use him this year then I get him for next year. Since I won't be using him till maybe August I am not really in any big hurry to get him and have to feed him. I just love the spots, my buck is black with white spots? or maybe he is dappled? If you look at www.rollfarms.com and look under the meat goats page he is on there his name is Freeney.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Roger ... 

you are right ... he is an awesome goat ... I can see why you are excited about him! 

gm


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

we added 3 new doelings this weekend ... they are all out of the Lazy ST Copperhead line with Bon Joli does ... two 75% doelings and one full blood doeling ... we are excited ... pictures in a couple of days


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Oooh. I like them.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

yay!!!! congrats on the new girls I can't wait for pictures.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks for the kind words ... hopefully we will get pictures up soon ... they are still pretty skittish as it was a long hot trip ... 103 on the way home at the end of September ... seems wrong


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I get my spotted buck soon and as soon as I can I will post pictures for you. I am soo excited if you can't tell!


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Well here is a photo from right when my new spotted/dappled buck got home. It was almost dark so it is not the best picture.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

He looks ready to go to work! Very cool color.


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## Kimmerz Cali Kidz (Apr 30, 2011)

Congrats again Roger!! And GET Boers... I can't wait to see pics of those copperhead girls u got!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:thumbup: :hi5:


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

That is a great looking buck! You should be very proud of him!

You can go to our site (http://www.getboergoats.com/article.asp ... g&PagID=35) and the middle video shows some footage of our CopperHead does ... they are really coming along nicely ... the buck skin one is the full blood ... she is great!


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Oops, I just realized that video doesn't show the full blooded doe ... let me see if I can get a video of this weekend ... Thanks.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

I just posted a new video that shows our 3 CopperHead does ... http://www.getboergoats.com/article.asp ... g&PagID=35


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

The really odd things with spotted goats is how they develop and change as they mature. These 3 does were purchased several months ago ... at the time, only the full blooded buck skin showed definitive spotting ... the other two not much ... fortunately, we were able to get a discounted price due to that ... but, as they are maturing, they are all 3 developing spotts ... nothing major, but, it is good to know that they have the spots in them!


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## Tolers Boers (Jul 4, 2011)

Traditionals Standards Boer and Nubians here. Most emphasis on Boer the white and the reds.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

yep ... we love the traditionals as well ... we are in the process of adding a second cuger doe ... they will be both be flushed over the next 4 months ... we should have several top level traditionals on the farm! Very excited.


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