# Disbudding Disaster



## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

I have had a few recent threads that turned into a jumbled mess. So I will catch everyone up and make this new one about the current situation. 

I had 4 baby goats born last week, 1 girl and 3 boys. Two sets of twins, they are Nigerian/Nigerian Mixes.

1&2. The twin boys are getting banded and disbudded. Going together to a pet home after they are weaned.

3. The "blue eyed buckling" is keeping his horns. But getting banded.

4. The girl I am keeping. So I was going to disbud her also. 

I went and ordered myself a Rhineheart-X50A disbudding iron with a 1/2 tip. Was set up and ready to do it, but couldn't make myself. 

I called a vet. She sounded confident that she could disbud. I offered to bring my iron, but she refused saying she had her own. I was hoping for a quick trip, she would do one or two, show me how, and let me try one. I was totally confident in her that she would know how to disbud. 

And this is the rest of the posts from then on, copy and pasted here...


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Following the vet trip this morning...

That was the worst experience I have ever had. She is a great vet, but we have two totally different ideas.

I know I shouldn't have. But I just went with it, I didn't want to call her out and make her stop and once I realized it was too late to go back.

She anesthetized them. Shaved their heads. Used a scalpel to CUT the horn buds off. They bled like crazy. Went back with one of those cheap long disbudding irons with a loop/ring on the end. And barely brushed it over the buds just to stop the bleeding. Didn't hold it on at all. The two boys were fine. The girl wouldn't stop bleeding. And she wouldn't just hold the iron on to cauterize it and be done, just brushed over it a few times. "Don't want to hold it on or it will cause brain damage" not even for more than a second. 30 mins, still gushing blood with every heart beat on both sides. I had to sit and hold the towel on to stop the bleeding while she walked around and acted like it was no big deal. I finally got it to stop with just holding pressure. Everyone including me, the goat, the table, the vet...is covered in blood.

$105 later, and I am just not impressed with her method at all. Didn't say anything, but I will ever bring any back to be done.

They got a penicillin shot, banamine, and I went ahead and let her Vaccinate them for CD&T.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

I am just in shock. On the way home with them now and I'll see how bad the damage really is.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

She is up, bleeding still looks like it has stopped. But poor baby girl is soaked in her own blood. I am glad they are still sleepy.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

This is the white buckling. The circle is not from the iron, it is where she cut it off. Then scraped it. The little dark spots are from the actual iron. But she barely grazed it at all.

Made the comment "sometimes they get scurs but you can just cut them off easy" which the only reason I used her is to prevent me giving them scurs from inexperience. I feel like she just made the job harder than it needed to be. To try to prevent pain.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

This is the dark twin buck.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

And the sweet baby girl. The cut was a little sloppy on her, she wasn't fully asleep yet. I don't know if you can tell from the pictures, but where the scalpel started or ended, there is a deeper cut on the sides. Which was where the blood came from. She said the girls buds looked deeper than the boys so she had to cut more?


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

It's over now and everyone is happy and back with mamas. I trusted her completely for other animals, and still do...but I won't be taking any more goat kids back to her. That was the last thing I excpected, glad it's over.

Is that even a thing people do? Just scrape them out like that? Are they going to grow back anyway? I am just preparing myself to redo them with my disbudding iron when they do come back. If anything that has prepared me, because I am extremely confident I can't mess them up any worse than they are now.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Do yall think I need to put something on it? I get with an iron it would be sterilized. But I feel like it's nothing more than an open wound at this point. 

(Didn't mention it in this thread, dad was supposed to help hold them when I was going to do it, but was scared I was going to mess it up so we called the vet Instead to get a "pros" help) Dad was there watching, he was relieved because "we could never have taken care of anything like that at home, glad we got her to do it" He was completely surprised and won't believe me when I said I could have done a better job, there shouldn't have been blood at all, and I am never going back for that procedure again. 

I am just ranting now. I just don't even know what to do with myself.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You may have to burn them again. The males look like you will definitely have to burn them again. That is ridiculous. Glad you won't go back to that vet for disbudding. That is not how you do it at all. Watch the kids closely.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Just reposting the pictures, and having to look at how bad it really is, just makes me sick. I am fuming still just thinking about it. She is new. And she is young. But there is no excuse for that. If you "know how to use a disbudding iron no problem", I feel like the iron should have at least been used. Looking back now I should have just stopped her, and not cared about being rude. But I guess there is no going back from this point.


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

Nope, no going back in time but I would not return to that vet. I would also reburn those kids. Just burn as if she had done nothing. Then spray with Alushield. The most awful disbuddings I've seen online have all been performed by vets. Find a local goat person to help if you can find someone. Otherwise just watch a couple of videos and get your nerve and do it.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Should I do it now? Or wait to see if (more like when) they start to grow back? Now I am just really confused, because I don't know where to go from here. 

I have a big Nigerian Dwarf show/milk breeder about an hour from me. Uses the same vet, even said how great it is that she finally found a good goat vet. This breeder also disbuds her own goats though. I am going to try to reach out and see if she can help. If not I have another mentor type dairy breed show breeder a few hours from me, that I know would help. I am just hoping I can get them fixed after all that.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I would probably burn them (or get them burned) again in a day or two.


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I agree with Suzanne. I'd contact that breeder close by and get those redone.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Sooner is better than later. The older they get, the stronger the goats are and the more they squirm. The buds also get tougher and harder to burn if you wait.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

This is just for reference to what she was thinking when she did it. Not that I believe anything she was saying now. But if y'all can help straighten all this out for me. When starting out, it wasn't too bad, I still thought she knew what she was doing. So I was asking questions. 

She cut off the horn nub. I don't think that has anything to do with the bud. Then scraped under it. *Asked what she was doing to try to get more info. Said "the part she cut off is the bud, it is what grows the horn, so you just cut it right off"

In the pics, it is clear in all of them a little tiny circle, in the big circle, I am guessing the actual bud? I have no idea what to call it. But she said "scrape this out to make sure you kill it all"

*What is the iron do, just cauterize it? (At this point, it was the last goat and I figured out she has no idea what she is doing, I was just asking to see the crazy answers I would get) "yea it mostly just stops the bleeding, it can help kill the bud too, but you just can't leave it on there more than a second. So I just brush it over the top real lightly, don't want to fry their brains, I have seen it happen many times" 

In the videos I have watched, the whole point of the figure 8 for bucks, is to get all of the bud cells, and some are way in front of the bud. So the ones in front haven't even been touched.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

One of the "stickies" at the top of this forum has a video and a lot of info on disbudding: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/disbudding-video-finally-p.124749/


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Thank you for the link!


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

Wow. My stomach turned and eyes welled up in tears. That totally stinks.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes bring them to one of the other breeders. That was a horrible job. I have never heard of cutting the bud.
A figure eight on bucks is correct.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

What a shame. Definately re burn the kids the right way. So sorry you and the kids had to go through all that.

A disbudding box really can be a helpful item to have. Very simple to build. Then you only have to concentrate on holding the baby head still and doing a nice burn. Generally, the kid yells more because he is immobilized in a box rather than getting dis-budded. 

Some people are really talented and can hold the kid and dis bud. I'm not that coordinated! I need 2 hands. (I don't have any one to help, either).


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Since you are completely against going back to this vet (lucky you for having this choice) invite her to join here and learn what we are doing to put up with inadequate vet service. She sounds smart (not wise yet, but intelligent). So she may learn something. If she tries to pontificate on something that people here know better about, the big guns here will overwhelm her with science this and studies show that. AND they'll give sources.

I've said over and over that this is the best place. I wasn't being gushing. It is the best place because (in part) this place is science based. It isn't opinion, or anecdotal, or righteous. It is scientific and compassionate (and sometimes passionate) If anyone can teach a teachable vet, it is @goathiker (for one instance)

Invite her to join, even if only to give a vet's view. We may learn from her (not how to disbud obviously) and if she'll learn from us, you will have done a great service to the goat owners in your area. They may be more like your father than like you, thinking, wow, it sure is good that we had this woman because we could not have coped with this.

I wish your father could have seen it done well. But then, he may have then said, "That was easy, why did we pay her to do it?" Not seeing how not easy it was to get it just right without trauma.

Anyway, think about it. Your vet thinks she still has you as a customer, so she won't suspect you of ulterior motives.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

She really is great, extremely caring and sweet. Does a lot of rescues that people find on the roads, spay/neuter fix any health issues, then rehomes them. She is a great surgeon too. Was sewing up a show pig when we got there that was attacked by dogs. She sewed him up beautifully! Pretty much put his ear back on. 

I love the environment and she always talks, is open and answers any questions and describes everything she is doing and why. So it really is hard to be mad at her. She just has what she thinks is the best in her mind, and goes by that. (Rather than my usual older male farm vet who is a very gruff no nonsense, no talking, kind of worker) 

She was even telling me how awful it is doing adult goats with big horns. I forgot to mention this. She does the same method for adult goats, so maybe that is how she was taught to "dehorn" rather than "disbud". I have no idea. 

The babies are all up running around and playing today. THANK GOODNESS! I was terrified they would start acting lethargic. I'm going to bring them inside and clean them up today, just the fur, I am not going to touch their heads. I thought the mamas would clean the blood off them, but they haven't yet. 

I am curious to just leave the buds alone, and see what happens. Just so I will know for sure what they look like, or if/when they come back. I would never do her method EVER again. But I do almost want to give it a chance and see what it looks like before I try to correct it. If not I will never know if it was from her, or from me correcting it. If that makes any sense, I know it sounds a little crazy, with me knowing they will most likely come back if I don't go ahead and fix it. But I have had scurs on one before, so If it comes down to that it won't be too bad. 

If they do come back, even as small scurs. I am going to let her know. And tell her that method just doesn't work. I am going to message the dairy breeder that uses her, she is also a younger woman. And explain what happened, and get advice. Then I can go back and tell the vet politely, your method doesn't work, but I talked to your good friend ____ and let her fix them for me, and she said this other way is the best method instead. That is the only way I can think of to get her to stop doing that to people goat kids. I know she will take advice from the other big breeder before she listens to me. 

She is very smart and kind, but I think if I mention this site she will just brush it off as "google knows better than a licensed vet" type deal. So I am scared to mention it to her.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

For the dad situation. He didn't tell me, but told my mom it was the absolute worst thing he has ever had to be a part of. So he still thinks I am insane for wanting to have it done in the first place. Won't tell me that though.

Another thing I found out. Dad grew up disbudding calves with an iron. Him and all his sibling would have to jump on and hold down calves while my papa disbudded them. I had no idea before now, so I don't understand why he thinks it is such a big deal using an iron. I knew he grew up farming with my grandparents and did all the rough stuff that comes with that. But the fact that they all have experience disbudding is new news to me.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

People are really rough when they handle cattle, and they used to be even rougher (I'm talking unnecessarily rough, and a broad spectrum of people, not those of us here who have cattle) It sounds like your dad may have been traumatized. The things cattle are put through can be really nauseating.

The vet? Yeah, I hear you. That's why I suggested her being invited to input, not to receive, advice.

We'll take good advice.

Unlike what others have thought, I would just let the horns be for right now. But then, I'm more willing to try banding than put more trauma on the kids right now. That might not be a valid way of thinking, but it's where I am right now. They are your kids.

Your idea sounds valid too.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Update on the kids. They are all doing great now. It doesn't look like the horns are coming back, but I am not experienced enough to know what they are supposed to look like. I will get pictures next week when I am back home.

I am going to disbud my new bottle baby girl today before I go out of town. She is probably close to 10-12 days, a little late but she has tiny little buds. I am doing it myself, with my grandparents helping me to hold her. They have done calves, so maybe they will know enough to help me out. Wish me luck! I am hoping I will have it in me this time to actually go though with it.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

I'm so sorry for your experience...inexcusable IMO. May I ask where you're located? We have a goat butcher in our area about whom I've heard several similar stories. In those cases the outcome was not as pleasant...kids died within hours. I'm not into "calling names" necessarily, but if you would post your location, folks in your area who need a vet might contact you privately to be sure they're not taking their animals to this person (I hesitate to use the word "vet"). I hope your babies (and you) recover beautifully!!!


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

top_goat said:


> I'm so sorry for your experience...inexcusable IMO. May I ask where you're located? We have a goat butcher in our area about whom I've heard several similar stories. In those cases the outcome was not as pleasant...kids died within hours. I'm not into "calling names" necessarily, but if you would post your location, folks in your area who need a vet might contact you privately to be sure they're not taking their animals to this person (I hesitate to use the word "vet"). I hope your babies (and you) recover beautifully!!!


Im from south ga. Most people within a few hours of me just have "mixed woods goats" so there are only maybe 2-3 people including myself that would disbud. So it's not a very common practice in this area. That's what I am blaming that experience on, just the vet not knowing any better. (So I don't get too mad over the whole situation lol)


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

But I did disbud for the first time!  I didn't throw up or get sick! And I didn't even cry or get choked up! 

I am 90% sure I will have to go back next week and fix it though. I burnt for 5-6 seconds, and did each side 4-6 times with breaks in between. 

Going through the actual process, made it easier to understand how to do it. Next time I know I will hold it longer. Just didn't have the confidence this time, was too scared she would overheat. But I think with a few more tries I will be okay at it.


So the main problem I noticed, the brown top layer of the bud popped off. But underneath there was a tiny white bud. On the videos I have watched, it all pops off together, and leaves behind a white flat surface. This had a white surface with a bump in the center. 

So I am pretty sure the horns will grow back.  One side turned pink on the bump after about 20 min, from what I am guessing it still had blood supply on the white bud. Didn't bleed, but had pink pigment like blood was under the skin, just on the bump. I should have went back over it, but I had already turned the iron off and I think she had enough stress for he day. So that side I am definitely going to have to redo. 

The other side, I laid the iron flat and tried to burn the remaining white bud. So it does not have a pink pigment to it. But still has the white bud. So I am not really sure how that side is going to turn out.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

I got this picture off google and zoomed in. It looked a lot like this, but I tried to pick the bud off by hand, and just the brown layer came off, right above the bud. It was thick and and felt like a bud, but there was another white bud underneath it. If that makes sense?

I should have got pictures to show y'all, but I just dropped her off with the grandparents to take care of while I am out of town this weekend. And was a little stressed out so I forgot.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

That is awesome, great job!!! The first time is alway pretty scary.

I don't really see the need to take the buds off. Either way works though.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

I'm really hoping the rest will just fall off on its own. But the fact that it didn't come off easy in one piece, and still looked pink on one, makes me think I didn't do it long enough. But who knows. I'll get pictures of all of them when I get back home Tuesday. I am now fully prepared to fix the other disaster babies if that is the case. 

Not an ounce of blood was spilled, a little started to pop up but I hit it with the iron and it stopped immediately. WAY better than my first experience. 

I am just so proud of myself! Even if I did probably mess up. Y'all have no idea! I didn't feel one ounce of regret or worry! I'll be glad once I get me a box or better set up and can do it alone. It seems to scare everyone else that helps, so I think I am better off learning to do it on my own without bystanders worrying for me. Can't wait until next year when I have more kids! 

It took a few minutes to get her back to her playful self, but after that she was boucing around like nothing happened.


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## cathy page (Nov 16, 2017)

OMG!!!!! Poor baby's, the things we do to our animals, for using your own dehorners, you can build a little box where just the head of the baby goat sticks out and he is locked in it, you burn just long enough to get a copper ring, too long can damage brain or even kill I think, best of luck to you


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

There should be a copper ring around the buds. If it is pink, you probably will need to redo.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I have never seen anyone disbud like that in 35 years of goats. You'll need to burn those bud stumps or they will grow scurs. I have seen a vet scoop out calves horns, and that was nasty, but those were horns that had already attached. All she did was cut off the tips if the horns, not the entire bud. Those poor babies.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Well around the buds turned copper on the one kid that I did. Just on the top of the inner bud itself is pink? Only way I can describe it, I tried to pop the cap off at the end. But only the outer layer peeled off. I will get better pictures when I get back home. I feel like it's somthing you just have to see, better than me trying to explain it. I can't even find a google picture that looks anything like it.

Maybe y'all will be able to tell better than I can from pictures. And will know what the best option is for all of them.

Yea, I think with the 3 kids the vet did, she did it how she was taught to "dehorn a goat" like a full grown goat. Not "disbud a kid" which I feel like is two completely separate things.

For the first three that had theirs "cut off". It doesn't look like there has been any horn growth since then. Which is good I guess. But I'm not sure how fast I should excpect it to grow back though, or what to look for. But Ill get new updated pictures for y'all soon. I know y'all will notice more details than I will.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Good for you doing your first ones! I absolutely HATE disbudding. But I have found that I'd rather do it right (thoroughly) once than to have to redo it. I've had to redo 2 of my ducklings in the past. I think it's as traumatic for me as it is for the kids!


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

I agree! It's awful, was like ripping my heart out. But after that first time with the vet, I was expecting the worst. Now I know how quick and easy it can be, so I am so relieved. 

Glad to have all of y'all to depend on!


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Okay so I am finally back home. Bottle Baby girl has been playing like a maniac the past few hours, so that's good haha.

She is the one I disbudded with an iron by myself Friday. It was a lot cleaner white looking then. Here are some pictures of it from today.

You can see the white bud that is still left over, instead of the whole bud popping off flat. So I am guessing I will have to redo it?

It looked fine, until the end when I tried to pop the bud off with my fingers, and just the dark top bump over white bump popped off. If that makes any sense? Any ideas as to what I did wrong and when I need to go back and fix it? I'm guessing I just didn't burn long enough?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That isn't a good copper ring. You probably will need to redo. Hold the iron on longer.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Okay thank you! That's what I was thinking. How much deeper will I need to go you think? What's left now seems like it is all one solid layer, just wondering what to expect under this layer? 

It was all white after I did it. It did turn a dark color ring where the iron touched, but now looking at other pictures, it didn't really turn a true "copper" color.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Here is another picture. Not the prettiest disbudding job I have seen. Doesn't really look like any of the videos or pictures I have looked at either.

I am guessing it might have oozed a little while I was away this weekend too. It was a clean solid white, with a darker ring, when I left Friday. Now it doesn't look as neat. It isn't oozing or anything like that now though. And it doesn't hurt or bother her any.

The top horn on this picture, is the one that turned pink over the bud.

The bottom horn is the one I touched up a little with the iron after, and it didn't turn pink.

They both look about the same though. So I will go back and try to fix them again. Will hold longer this time.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

This is the other kids that the vet did. Theirs don't look too bad? It is hard where the buds were. Almost like a dip in their heads. But I haven't noticed any horn growth that I can tell? I have no idea what to do with theirs, so I guess I will just watch and wait until I notice any growth?

My camera wouldn't focus in the lighting. But maybe yall can tell. I'll get better ones tomorrow during the day.

This is the girl that the vet cut. One side looks a lot better than the other. But the odd shaped side is the one that bled so badly.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

These are the other two boys that the vet cut. Theirs are about the same, no horn growth, just hard dips in their heads. But the pictures didn't really turn out, so I'll get better ones tomorrow.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

This is how I dis bud: 
When you warm up the disbudding iron, make it hot so it leaves a nice charred black ring on a piece of wood (2x4), after holding it on the wood a second or two. I use a wire brush and brush off any remaining burning wood! 

Hold it on the horn bud 12-14 seconds. Don't keep pulling it off. You want one or 2 deep burns. Not on and off every few seconds. You can heat up the brain and kill them that way. I hold an ice pack wrapped in a clean sock after I disbud to make sure the head is chilled down. Then I spray with the purple spray sold at livestock supply stores. ( I can't think of the brand name). 

Once you get your technique down, it gets easier. After hundreds, I still hate doing it! I've never lost a kid, only a few scurs early on, but it's one of those unpleasant things that had to be done!


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Goats Rock said:


> This is how I dis bud:
> When you warm up the disbudding iron, make it hot so it leaves a nice charred black ring on a piece of wood (2x4), after holding it on the wood a second or two. I use a wire brush and brush off any remaining burning wood!
> 
> Hold it on the horn bud 12-14 seconds. Don't keep pulling it off. You want one or 2 deep burns. Not on and off every few seconds. You can heat up the brain and kill them that way. I hold an ice pack wrapped in a clean sock after I disbud to make sure the head is chilled down. Then I spray with the purple spray sold at livestock supply stores. ( I can't think of the brand name).
> ...


Thank you so much! I will do it longer next time, and not as many times. That information really does make it a lot easier to understand! Thank you!

I thought short bursts would prevent her from over heating, but that makes more sense now. Because after I did both sides about 5 secs 3-4 times, even with breaks, she almost looked like she started to get too hot, so I just quit with it because I was scared. Glad I quit when I did! She was fine after a few minutes, but I think she did get a little too hot. I'll watch that closer next time.

She was okay until it hit 6 seconds, but each time it hit 6 seconds she would start to really struggle a lot. So I was scared it was too hot or I was doing something wrong.

But if I can get it up to 10-12 seconds without damage, I will try that next time. Thank you!


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I do ten seconds as well. Ten on one side, not pressing down but holding firmly and twisting. Then I do ten on the second side. My husband counts one thousand one, one thousand two yo the count of ten. Then I do ten more seconds on each side. I flip the caps off, more to make sure I've burned enough. Then, if they're bucklings I do a third time as a figure eight because bucks have a wider horn base. Then I spray with Alushield. My vet doesn't like Bluekote, she suggested Alushield and it's been great for me.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

CrazyDogLady said:


> I do ten seconds as well. Ten on one side, not pressing down but holding firmly and twisting. Then I do ten on the second side. My husband counts one thousand one, one thousand two yo the count of ten. Then I do ten more seconds on each side. I flip the caps off, more to make sure I've burned enough. Then, if they're bucklings I do a third time as a figure eight because bucks have a wider horn base. Then I spray with Alushield. My vet doesn't like Bluekote, she suggested Alushield and it's been great for me.


I've never used Alushield, but that sounds like a good idea.


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