# Whether won't eat, staying away from herd



## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Hi all!
Our 6 year old kinder whether, Liam, hasn't been eating his feed the past few days. I haven't noticed him eating hay, but he might be when I'm not there. He gets 1/2 cup of feed twice a day. He also gets orchard grass hay, and plenty of grass/browse. He is fed Dumor goat pelleted formula. Here is a picture of the bag. He has also has been staying behind his shed, which is very unusual for him. Is there anything I can do for him? I will try to get pictures when I get home. He is very skittish, but a little friendlier lately. He is usually hand-fed, as the other goats try to take his food. We recently tested our herd and he tested negative for CAE, Brucellosis, Johne's, and CL. None of our other goats are acting like this. I can't get to him to check his FAMACHA, but I will try when I get home. I'll check his temperature as well if I can. 








Thanks in advance!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I would definitely check for worms/parasites and try to get a temp. Is he peeing? His calcium to phosphorous ratio seems high on the phosphorous for a wether. Ratio should be 2 parts calcium to one part phosphorous. Orchard grass is typically high in phosphorous and the dumor cannot balance that out.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

goatblessings said:


> I would definitely check for worms/parasites and try to get a temp. Is he peeing? His calcium to phosphorous ratio seems high on the phosphorous for a wether. Ratio should be 2 parts calcium to one part phosphorous. Orchard grass is typically high in phosphorous and the dumor cannot balance that out.


Thank you! I'll definetly try to get a temp, and if possible, get a fecal done. We have alfalfa pellets for our does. Should we start to give him some? How much?
It seems like he has had a little more trouble peeing than usual. This has never happened before with him, but we did recently get new hay. Maybe this new hay has more phosphorous than usual in it? Our old hay wasn't great quality. Our new hay is better, but not the best.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Start with his famacha and temp and watch to see him pee. Goatblessings is correct..he needs more calcium in his diet. Once he's eating again, I would ween him off his feed switching with the alfalfa pellets. Just add a cup of alfalfa pellets to his feed..begin adding more alfalfa and less feed over a weeks time until hes getting all alfalfa pellets and no feed.


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

@CaramelKittey I am sorry he is not feel8ng well. I hope you can find out whats going on soon.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with the others.

Sorry he is not feeling good.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Is he peeing?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Whatever it is, I hope you figure it out soon and he gets back to being himself!


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

CaramelKittey said:


> It seems like he has had a little more trouble peeing than usual.


Like others here his calcuim to phos ratio is off. Does it seem like he is standing as if to pee a lot? You know the stance. Just the standin a lot and being away from the herd would make me think stones ... i would start him on ammonium chloride asap! Most likely you need to order that. Fruit fresh in the canning isle will work in a pinch. You do NOT want him to get blocked! So you need to figure out a way to get him contained to check him now. Feel around his penis and see if you feel gritty sandy feeling stuff there. That is uc stones in the making.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Start with his famacha and temp and watch to see him pee. Goatblessings is correct..he needs more calcium in his diet. Once he's eating again, I would ween him off his feed switching with the alfalfa pellets. Just add a cup of alfalfa pellets to his feed..begin adding more alfalfa and less feed over a weeks time until hes getting all alfalfa pellets and no feed.


I tried to give him a handful of alfalfa pellets yesterday and he did eat it, but then spit some out..
He did eat his grain yesterday though. Thank you so much! I'll definitely give him alfalfa pellets with his feed this morning!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> Is he peeing?


Yes. He seems to be having trouble pooping though, but it's hard to tell.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> Like others here his calcuim to phos ratio is off. Does it seem like he is standing as if to pee a lot? You know the stance. Just the standin a lot and being away from the herd would make me think stones ... i would start him on ammonium chloride asap! Most likely you need to order that. Fruit fresh in the canning isle will work in a pinch. You do NOT want him to get blocked! So you need to figure out a way to get him contained to check him now. Feel around his penis and see if you feel gritty sandy feeling stuff there. That is uc stones in the making.


Thank you! 
I have seen him standing to pee more than often, but he isn't standing all the time. 
Will canned pineapple work?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

CaramelKittey said:


> Thank you!
> I have seen him standing to pee more than often, but he isn't standing all the time.
> Will canned pineapple work?


No. It needs to be fruit fresh. Or better ammonium chloride.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

often we see what looks like a constipated buck but in reality he's struggling to pee. Since he is still able to pee..quick action is needed to keep things flowing. Rry fresh fruit for now but order Ammonium chloride to be his daily maintenance. Keep a very close eye on him..if he stops peeing it becomes an emergency situation. Call your vet now and alert him. They may even have Ammonium chloride on hand.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

I noticed on the picture of the feed bag that it has added ammonium chloride in it. Does that mean, likely it wasn't enough for this boy, if he is having the beginnings of UC?
Also I remembered @CaramelKittey, that you had offered free choice baking soda before. Do you still do that? This was from @Damfino 
_From what I understand, baking soda has an alkalizing effect on the urine which means it should not be a regular part of the diet for wethers. 
From this thread:_
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/urinary-calculi-treatment-analysis-myths-and-tips.215929/


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirec...52992144044569&widgetName=sp_phone_search_atf
Will this work? How should I give it to him?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

CaramelKittey said:


> https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect/picassoRedirect.html/ref=pa_sp_phone_search_atf_aps_sr_pg1_1?ie=UTF8&adId=A014487924Y20BTWJEXWI&url=/AniMed-99-9-Percent-Ammonium-Chloride-2-5-Pound/dp/B00LFNH69E/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=ammonium+chloride&qid=1600784518&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&qualifier=1600784517&id=5452992144044569&widgetName=sp_phone_search_atf
> Will this work? How should I give it to him?


This is from tennesee meat goats:
https://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculi06.html. Good luck!
Mix the following in 20 cc water and orally drench: One (1) teaspoon Ammonium chloride per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for 2 days, then 1/2 tsp per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for the next 3 days, then 1/2 tsp once a day for 3 days, then 1/4 tsp daily as a preventative. Dosages are based upon 75 lb liveweights. Ammonium chloride burns the throat, so stomach tube it into the goat. You can ammonium chloride with juice to avoid burning if you must orally drench.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Thank you! He is with our does and they all have free choice baking soda available. He ate his feed with the alfalfa pellets this morning! He didn’t eat all of it, but at least half. He was given 1/2 cup of feed with 1 cup of alfalfa pellets. Is this correct? 
I definitely think our new hay must be higher in phosphorous. We’ve only had a small case that cured itself once a couple years ago when a buckling got into the doe’s feed. No treatment was needed, thankfully. 
I’ll take away their baking soda, and keep an eye on him. Thank you!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

MadHouse said:


> This is from tennesee meat goats:
> https://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculi06.html. Good luck!
> Mix the following in 20 cc water and orally drench: One (1) teaspoon Ammonium chloride per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for 2 days, then 1/2 tsp per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for the next 3 days, then 1/2 tsp once a day for 3 days, then 1/4 tsp daily as a preventative. Dosages are based upon 75 lb liveweights. Ammonium chloride burns the throat, so stomach tube it into the goat. You can ammonium chloride with juice to avoid burning if you must orally drench.


Thank you! I've never heard of or used a stomach tube. How does it work, and where could I find one? Should I mix it with cranberry juice? Liam loves apples, will that work for some quick ammonium chloride? How much should I give him?
Thank you!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Mix the following in 20 cc water and orally drench: One (1) teaspoon Ammonium chloride per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for 2 days,
You can (mix) ammonium chloride with juice to avoid burning if you must orally drench.

:up:
If you use juice you don’t have to stomach tube, that’s how I understand it. 
I don’t know which juice is best, apple or cranberry.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Sorry for the confusion. I’ve just been informed that Fruit Fresh was a product. This whole time, I thought everybody was talking about fresh fruit, or canned fruit. :bonk:


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We will order the ammonium chloride right away! How much Fruit Fresh should I give him? I’m assuming it should be mixed with cranberry juice. How much? Thank you!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Baking soda deactivates ammonium chloride. Definitely remove free choice baking soda. But anything in feed is only good if you feed the right amount. If you aren't following the directions on the bag and feeding less, then the ammonium chloride in the feed is worthless.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

CaramelKittey said:


> We will order the ammonium chloride right away! How much Fruit Fresh should I give him? I'm assuming it should be mixed with cranberry juice. How much? Thank you!


I did a search on forums for you, looking for fruit fresh dosage.
This was from 2013:
_On a very quick search I have seen dosages from 1 tbsp to 4 tbsp fruit fresh with enough water to make it liquid. The 4tbsp dosage recommended 30 cc water. Good luck!_


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Fresh fruit is the same dosage and frequency as Ammonium chloride listed on Tenn. Meat goats information that was posted earlier.


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## MuldrowBeeandGoatFarm (Oct 25, 2019)

CaramelKittey said:


> Thank you!
> I have seen him standing to pee more than often, but he isn't standing all the time.
> Will canned pineapple work?


Don't confuse Fresh Fruit with FRUIT FRESH......sorry but just had to make sure you knew it was a canning additive, not actual fruit


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

MuldrowBeeandGoatFarm said:


> Don't confuse Fresh Fruit with FRUIT FRESH......sorry but just had to make sure you knew it was a canning additive, not actual fruit


Thank you. I've just realized this today. Makes a lot more sense now. :bonk:


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We gave Liam 2 teaspoons of Fruit Fresh in 45CC of Cranberry Juice with the drencher. He loved it and took it gladly. Unfortunately something seems to be wrong with his front leg. He has stayed in his shed most of the day if not all. Sometimes he stands sometimes he lays down. He doesn’t seem to be in pain. He isn’t putting much weight on it, he is and holding it up often. I’ll try to get a picture tomorrow. It does seem broken, and he didn’t seem to be in pain when we touched it. Not sure if this is connected to the UC, or if it is something else. He has hurt his leg before jumping off a high place in his ‘obstacle course’ but it recovered within a few days. I tried to check for hoof rot, but didn’t see, feel, or smell anything. He doesn’t run away when he is pet/scratched, which may sound like a good thing, but it’s VERY unlike him. Just hoping he will get better soon.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> Like others here his calcuim to phos ratio is off. Does it seem like he is standing as if to pee a lot? You know the stance. Just the standin a lot and being away from the herd would make me think stones ... i would start him on ammonium chloride asap! Most likely you need to order that. Fruit fresh in the canning isle will work in a pinch. You do NOT want him to get blocked! So you need to figure out a way to get him contained to check him now. Feel around his penis and see if you feel gritty sandy feeling stuff there. That is uc stones in the making.


Thank you!
We felt but couldn't feel anything. Hopefully that's a good sign!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Is he peeing well now? if not, very warm compresses and massage on the sheath can help break things up..snipping the pizzle can offer instant relief (be sure not to stand in the way)
on the leg, any swelling and or heat? Did do at pressure to all points as you went for the leg? You want him to get up and move for rumen sake.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Oh no, now the leg!?!
Did you check his temperature?
I think I would call the vet if he is not better in the morning.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

CaramelKittey said:


> We gave Liam 2 teaspoons of Fruit Fresh in 45CC of Cranberry Juice with the drencher. He loved it and took it gladly. Unfortunately something seems to be wrong with his front leg. He has stayed in his shed most of the day if not all. Sometimes he stands sometimes he lays down. He doesn't seem to be in pain. He isn't putting much weight on it, he is and holding it up often. I'll try to get a picture tomorrow. It does seem broken, and he didn't seem to be in pain when we touched it. Not sure if this is connected to the UC, or if it is something else. He has hurt his leg before jumping off a high place in his 'obstacle course' but it recovered within a few days. I tried to check for hoof rot, but didn't see, feel, or smell anything. He doesn't run away when he is pet/scratched, which may sound like a good thing, but it's VERY unlike him. Just hoping he will get better soon.


Maybe from laying around his leg was asleep?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

I’ll try to get pictures when I go out this morning. He did eat his feed (feed with alfalfa pellets) last night but it had to be wrapped in treats. I didn’t notice him laying down much until he hurt his leg, but he may have been laying down when I didn’t notice. 
Thank you so much everybody for all your help! I’m sure Liam really appreciates it!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Is he peeing well now? if not, very warm compresses and massage on the sheath can help break things up..snipping the pizzle can offer instant relief (be sure not to stand in the way)
> on the leg, any swelling and or heat? Did do at pressure to all points as you went for the leg? You want him to get up and move for rumen sake.


Thank you! We will try to feel this morning.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Do you have banamine? If his temperature is normal (101.5-103.5) you can give him a dose along with the fruit fresh/AC. It actually helps him pass the stones and makes it more comfortable to pee. My vet recommended it and it helped a lot when one of my wethers had grit. Make sure you keep up the AC protocol the whole treatment time, don't stop prematurely if he starts looking like things are working normally again or you can relapse.
I hope Liam feels better soon!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> Do you have banamine? If his temperature is normal (101.5-103.5) you can give him a dose along with the fruit fresh/AC. It actually helps him pass the stones and makes it more comfortable to pee. My vet recommended it and it helped a lot when one of my wethers had grit. Make sure you keep up the AC protocol the whole treatment time, don't stop prematurely if he starts looking like things are working normally again or you can relapse.
> I hope Liam feels better soon!


Thank you! We don't have banamine, but I'll ask my vet! We drenched him with another 2 teaspoons of fruit fresh in 45CC of cranberry juice.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We called every vet/veterinary hospital we could think of in our area and they were either out of town, or didn't have banamine. Our knowledgeable goat mentor is out of town as well. Our vet said she had some, but she was out of town and her husband didn't know how to draw a syringe to get some. :imok:


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Here are two links to some videos I took of him. What do you think?
We drenched him with his 4th dose of cranberry juice with 2 tsp of fruit fresh. He is less interested every time we give it to him, but we still managed to get it into him. I couldn't feel anything with his leg this morning. I checked on him throughout the day, and most times he was laying down, but I just checked now and he was standing. His walking is a little off, but much better. This morning, I forced his leg (With force, but gently if you know what I mean  ) to go straight out rather than stayed curled, and he started walking after that!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Sorry the quality of the videos isn't great. In the first video, you can hear him groaning towards the end. Most if not all of the groaning in the beginning is our doe who is very much in heat, and the buck we are leasing.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

CaramelKittey said:


> We called every vet/veterinary hospital we could think of in our area and they were either out of town, or didn't have banamine. Our knowledgeable goat mentor is out of town as well. Our vet said she had some, but she was out of town and her husband didn't know how to draw a syringe to get some. :imok:


 Oh geez, I'm sorry! How much does Liam Weigh? Banamine is 1cc per 100lbs so if he's 70lbs it would be 7/10ths of a CC in a one cc syringe for example or if he's 120lbs it would be 1.2cc in a three cc syringe. You could draw it if your vets husband would allow it. If he's an odd weight like 73 lbs round down To 70 lbs for safety sake. You don't want to over do it.
Worth a shot maybe....


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Okay - so sorry I missed a UC conversation.

To acidify urine, you can use cranberry or prune juice.
Vitamin C aka ascorbic acid can be used, same ingredient as what's in fruit fresh.
Carrot juice is good to mix with ammonium chloride.
What is current state of his urination?

I need to know the rectal temp of this goat ASAP.

Has he received a B Complex injection? Probios? I would do both immediately. 

Questioning neuro symptoms with the leg, and overall appearence, polio/listeriosis or even tetanus. Examine the leg and hoof closely.

What is FAMACHA and how do poops look?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

UC alternative treatments and info:

https://thegivinggoathome.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/urinary-calculi-in-goats.pdf


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

I'm guessing Liam weighs near 150lbs, but I'm not 100% sure. I can't lift him, so he's at least more than I can lift. The normal weight for kinder does is about 114-125, and bucks is about 135-150lbs according to Google, but he is a whether so I'm not sure. If I am able to get banamine, do you think I should give him a dosage for a goat weighing about 125lbs?
Thank you!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

CaramelKittey said:


> I'm guessing Liam weighs near 150lbs, but I'm not 100% sure. I can't lift him, so he's at least more than I can lift. The normal weight for kinder does is about 114-125, and bucks is about 135-150lbs according to Google, but he is a whether so I'm not sure. If I am able to get banamine, do you think I should give him a dosage for a goat weighing about 125lbs?
> Thank you!


Never give banamine without knowing the rectal temp. Super dangerous to give if it's low and I have an inkling that could be possible.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

His FAMACHA is about a 2-3 or so. Maybe 1? I can't really tell, but its somewhere between 1-3. :shrug:


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Okay - so sorry I missed a UC conversation.
> 
> To acidify urine, you can use cranberry or prune juice.
> Vitamin C aka ascorbic acid can be used, same ingredient as what's in fruit fresh.
> ...


Thank you so much! He is with other goats so I can't tell which poops are his. I haven't given B Complex or Probios. I don't have B Complex, but I do have Probios! How much? I'll try to get a temp when we give him the Probios tonight if possible. I've never dealt with polio, listeriosis, or tetanus before, so I'm not really sure what to look for there. (embarrassed)

As I said before, FAMACHA looks like a 2-3. Maybe even a 1. I'm so bad at checking. Whatever it is, it is NOT white or pale pink. 
His current urination status is the same (maybe a little better but I've only seen it once since) as it was in the video links above. Here they are again.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We've been giving him 2 tsp of Fruit Fresh with 45cc of Cranberry juice roughly ever 12 hours. His 4th dose was today, but he has about 80cc of Cranberry juice with 2 tsp of Fruit Fresh, but some spilled. Anything else I can give him? Thank you!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Okay - so sorry I missed a UC conversation.
> 
> To acidify urine, you can use cranberry or prune juice.
> Vitamin C aka ascorbic acid can be used, same ingredient as what's in fruit fresh.
> ...


For the probios, should I just give him the recommended dosage on the tube? Thank you!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I don't see any urination in the videos. I need a description. Currently dribbles, steady stream, gentle stream?

I would mix 1/4 cup of vinegar in the cranberry juice (just NOT apple cider vinegar!!)

I really really really really need to know his rectal temperature!!

Give 5cc of probios.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I would love for the goat to receive banamine to help with inflammation. But cannot get that if temp is low.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I don't see any urination in the videos. I need a description. Currently dribbles, steady stream, gentle stream?
> 
> I would mix 1/4 cup of vinegar in the cranberry juice (just NOT apple cider vinegar!!)
> 
> ...


Drips, sometimes dribbles. It seems to stop, then start steady for a couple seconds, then stops, and repeats. He usually stays in the stance for 6+ minutes. 
I'll go give the Probios and get the temp right away! I'll be right back. Thanks for the help!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Yep definitely UC. Warm compress his male parts


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We took the temp twice. First time was 101.7. Second time was 102.5. My Mother came home, and was able to give him some alfalfa pellets and his feed wrapped in bread. He is eating that, and eating Sweet Gum leaves. We looked around his tail end area, and saw that his poop was normal and in pellets as usual. We gave him the 5cc of Probios, and he took it. 
Not sure if this would help at all, but we do have yeast. (we used to use it in a home remedy for mites for one of our does, but it turned out the doe didn't have mites..) It is Gutwerst brand for horses. Just thought I'd ask just in case. Thank you so much!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Yep definitely UC. Warm compress his male parts


Thank you! How should we go about doing that? 
I'm assuming it's safe to say his UC is due to Phosphorous stones, right? :ty:


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Doesn’t need yeast.

Temp is good. You’re a go for banamine.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Doesn't need yeast.
> 
> Temp is good. You're a go for banamine.


Thank you! Now we just have to find a way to get it..


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Doesn’t need yeast.

Temp is good. You’re a go for banamine.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Are you able to get ammonium chloride?

Can you warm compress and massage any stones from his pizzle?

He may need a pizzle cut to get a stream.

Veterinary intervention may be needed.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Yes, we are able to get some from Amazon. I believe it should be coming soon, hopefully. 
Should we continue to feed him his Dumor Goat Pellets, (in the bag pictured below) and alfalfa pellets, or should we discontinue his feed?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Discontinue feed. Give a small amount of alfalfa pellets along with his hay.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

The convulsions he does in the first video, is that from the pain while trying to pee?
I hope he gets better real soon!!
:hug:


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

MadHouse said:


> The convulsions he does in the first video, is that from the pain while trying to pee?
> I hope he gets better real soon!!
> :hug:


That's what I was thinking.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I think snipping his pizzle is warranted. Goat-link .com has a great page on how to do that with good pictures. Snipping is super fast and he will hardly bleed if at all. Just use super sharp scissors. Getting him to extend himself is tricky. 
Be sure not to stand in the line of fire when you snip.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

@NigerianDwarfOwner707 Thank you! How much alfalfa pellets should he get?

@MadHouse and @NigerianDwarfOwner707 I believe so as well.

@happybleats Thank you! We will attempt to do so if we can, assuming he won't be all better tomorrow morning!

:ty::bighug:
Thank you so much everybody!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I'd give him a couple of cups of the alfalfa pellets twice a day. 
Since you don't have an exact weight but know he's over 100 lbs I'd personally just give 1cc of banamine once a day for up to three days if you can get it... as long as his temp stays between 101-103*. 
When cutting the pizzle use sterilized cuticle scissors (clean them well with alcohol) make sure that are very sharp and spray a weak tea colored iodine solution on the area after to minimize infection risk (you'll have to be quick) 
Keep monitoring his urine output 
You're doing great! Hang in there


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Just wanted to confirm that I am only giving 1 tsp of Fruit Fresh in cranberry juice to Liam for every 12 hours for the next 3 days, right? Thank you! 
The ammonium chloride should hopefully arrive soon. It was supposed to arrive earlier..but of course it didn’t.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

How is he this morning?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

MadHouse said:


> How is he this morning?


He didn't eat this morning, but he we found him standing, and he wasn't interested in his medicine, and was more forceful when fighting the medicine. We were only able to get 10 / 45 CC down his throat. 
The ammonium chloride is supposed to arrive tomorrow! Hopefully it will come a little sooner.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

If you have to fight getting the medicine in him cut back on the amount of juice you're mixing with so he gets it all. You can offer the extra plain juice in a bucket and if he wants it he'll take it but you need to get the fruit fresh down him.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.

Hope he will be OK.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I would give him 1 cup of the alfalfa pellets.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

He wouldn't eat at all this morning. No grain, no leaves. He won't get up. I tried to pull him up and he groaned. He is very weak. I can't get banamine. What should we do?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

CaramelKittey said:


> He wouldn't eat at all this morning. No grain, no leaves. He won't get up. I tried to pull him up and he groaned. He is very weak. I can't get banamine. What should we do?


He even seemed to be shaking a bit. Is it too late for him?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Rush him to emergency vet 

What is his temp


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Not sure of his temp. We are calling a vet now.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

His bladder could have burst. He needs a vet ASAP.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Video of pizzle cut:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

:imsorry: hes not feeling better. Please get him to a vet..prayers


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

Oh no. Please get hom to a vet. Poor baby


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Hoping and praying he can get to a vet who can save him!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Our vet called back and said that we need to feel for his bladder. He said it should feel hard and like the size of an orange or maybe even a grapefruit if it's gone on 2-3 days. We are trying to feel for it now. Liam has now been standing and walking! He's been eating a lot of forage, but he's also been jerking his head up and back towards his side, but then he looses balance. He's been trying to eat my shirt, hair, his water bucket, and chair, etc. The surgery to help him if his bladder is still intact, is $800. 

Praying his bladder is still intact. If his bladder is still ok, is there a chance we could cut the pizzle and he could pass the stones, or do you think it's too late?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

I'm going to try and shave around his underbelly to help us feel for the bladder, and to cut the pizzle if it can still help.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes..if his bladder hasn't burst, which I'm thinking not since he's up and about now....snipping the pizzle may help. This makes way for larger stones to pass. If the stones are stuck in the sigmoid flexure, a sharp bend , then it may not work. But its worth a try.

If snipping doesn't help, Please be ready to set him free if things get too painful for him. ..sending prayers


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Thank you. 
Here is a video of him now.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Thank you. 

How do you think he would be behaving if his bladder were burst? 
Thank you everyone for your time and help. Still praying it’s not too late.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

From the video..he's in pain. Poor little guy. Let's get that pizzle snipped asap..prayers it helps. 

From how I understand.. busted bladder is very painful. He may scream out and kick at his belly. At that point. Euthanasia is most humane. Let's hope it doesn't get to that.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

He peed! It had already soaked into his pallets/straw when I got there, so I’m not sure how much it was, and it looked like he was just finishing when I got there and it was a dribble but that may have been when he was done so I’m not sure if it was a stream or dribble the whole time. I’m assuming he must have an intact bladder since he peed, right?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

YES..happy dance. Yes bladder is intact. Im hopeful when you snip the pizzle he will pee well.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Great! We will attempt to snip. Our vet recommended to drench him with 1 pint of vinegar. He said it didn't matter but if I remember correctly, @NigerianDwarfOwner707 recommended white vinegar, right?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Hoping your boy pulls through! It's nice to seen another kinder on the forum. Come on Liam you can pull through this!! 

Good luck with the surgery!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

White vinegar yes. May want to dilute a bit in cranberry so it doesn't burn.

Do not use ACV.

Definitely snip the pizzle as per the video above.

Questioning neuro symptoms, with the circling in the vid - @happybleats what do you think? If I saw that without urinary issues I'd do treatment for polio/listeriosis. It looked like more than just pain.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes according to her research..white vinegar is best for Phosphorus stones. 
I would snip his pizzle first before drenching him large amounts of fluid.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

happybleats said:


> Yes according to her research..white vinegar is best for Phosphorus stones.
> I would snip his pizzle first before drenching him large amounts of fluid.


Yes!

Too much fluid without a steady stream can lead to bladder burst.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I think that was pain reacting to passing a stone..but thiamine won't hurt!! Hes under alot of stress and that can cause other issues.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

happybleats said:


> I think that was pain reacting to passing a stone..but thiamine won't hurt!! Hes under alot of stress and that can cause other issues.


I'd definitely start on B.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Thank you! We don’t have B Complex. We will try to order (and make sure it has thiamine) but I’m not sure if it’ll arrive in time.

Liam seemed to be doing alright and we were getting prepared to snip the pizzle. I was milking Gracie, and heard screaming from his direction. Of course, he had fallen over and gotten his horns stuck in the fence wire. We helped him out and he was thrashing around a lot. We left to get the scissors to cut the pizzle, came back, and as we were trying to figure out the best approach, he peed a stream! It wasn’t as good a stream as usual, but it was a stream! We tried to cut the pizzle anyway, but it wouldn’t come out, so we couldn’t.

Liam kept thrashing about, and it was very sad to watch. He seemed to be in a lot of pain, and was loudly grinding his teeth. Is this him trying to pass a stone? He acted like he was trying to poop or pee, but we just saw him pee about 3-4 minutes before then, and nothing was coming out. It was very sad watching him flail around, and his legs were very weak. When we left he was laying on the ground on his stomach, just resting there. What do you think he will look like tomorrow? Is there anything we can do?
Thank you


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Yes, still trying to pass a stone. You need to work hard to express the pizzle. It’s so very important that it gets cut.

Did you get a call into the vet?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We haven’t asked the vet about it yet. We unfortunately won’t be able to get the surgery done, so I’m not sure what we can do. 
We massaged the area and tried to squeeze to get it out, but it wouldn’t come. Any tips on getting it out? Unfortunately the video doesn’t show how they got it.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

It does show how they got it. They use a surgical pliers once it shows a bit to hold it out.

A vet will be able to cut the pizzle for you!

He won’t need surgery if you have success cutting the pizzle and get the stones out.

However, if you don’t cut the pizzle he likely will need surgery/won’t make it.

Usually there’s a stone right in the pizzle causing the issue and it pops right out.

You can try to put him on his rump like a dog sitting as it may pop out more easily.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

CaramelKittey I’m not sure how old you are as you mentioned a parent - but to put an adult goat on their rump is difficult so you do need multiple strong people to make it happen.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We did see Liam pee a stream. Does that mean that a stone is still in there?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

He may have gotten one out but they can have multiple!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Thank you! I’m 14, so my parents have been helping. 

Is it safe to dig the surgical pliers a little ways into the hole? Assuming do, we may be able to get it out. Thanks for the tip! We will try to hold him rump-down and see if we can’t get it out that way. He’s very heavy, and the horns aren’t helping, but we will try!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

CaramelKittey said:


> Thank you! I'm 14, so my parents have been helping.
> 
> Is it safe to dig the surgical pliers a little ways into the hole? Assuming do, we may be able to get it out. Thanks for the tip! We will try to hold him rump-down and see if we can't get it out that way. He's very heavy, and the horns aren't helping, but we will try!


Gently, once it's slightly expressed.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Gently, once it's slightly expressed.


Thank you! To be honest, it barely expressed. It would only come up level with the hole.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

But we will see if it will express more once we have him on his rump rather than side.
Thank you!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We don’t have surgical pliers. Would tweezers work?
Thank you so much for your help!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

By the way, we took his temp earlier today and it was 101.5.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

There is a spot upu can push to make him extend himself..its between the sheath and testes I beleive. I'm going to find you a link that explains best way to extend him..i would not stick anything up his sheath..hold on.let me get that link


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Thank you! I’ll hold on’


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

http://www.bendingtreeranch.com/images/uc.pdf


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

another good information and pix

http://goat-link.com/content/view/67/49/#.X26LwZNKhsM


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

That is a great article from Bendingtree ranch. Thanks for posting it, happybleats. I really hope no one ever has to use the information in it!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Take your time and as the first link suggest, a small wash cloth can offer grip. Pace yourself and once you get that penis out..work to snip the pizzle quickly.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We went out and he didn’t look good. He was on his side, weakly thrashing, and foaming at the mouth. What do you think? Almost like he ate something toxic.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh no! Can you get him up? Feel his bladder area...is it poochy feeling?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Oh no! Can you get him up? Feel his bladder area...is it poochy feeling?


Yes. His underbelly has felt loose all day. He's acting like he's rabid..


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

The pain may be more than he can handle. Do you have a plan if he needs to be euthanized? I hate this for him and you!! But sometimes its the most humane thing to do


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Please understand, euthanizing is a choice only you and your parents can make. You are there with him, you know him best. It's not an easy decision, What ever you decide, you have this group behind you.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We looked up rabid goats, and he seems to have a lot of symptoms..
He was slightly aggressive today, and trying to eat buckets and chairs. The thrashing and wobbly walk look much like a rabid deer.

@NigerianDwarfOwner707 You mentioned some about him having a neurological issue. What would the symptoms of polio or listeriosis be? I've never seen it in goats.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Please understand, euthanizing is a choice only you and your parents can make. You are there with him, you know him best. It's not an easy decision, What ever you decide, you have this group behind you.


Thank you. :hug:


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Similar to what you described though he may just be in very severe pain.

Rabies is incredibly uncommon in goats, but with the leg issue, is it possible he was bitten?

https://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html

Do you need a number for an emergency vet?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Do you think he could have rabies? I’m not sure how he could’ve gotten it though. Two of our does were vaccinated, but he and his sister weren’t. Should we separate him from them?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Rabies is often confused with listeriosis, tetanus, or polio.

Without seeing the goat and having been there through the whole process it is hard to diagnose.

If it was polio or
Listeriosis, sometimes it can be a slow descent which starts with them acting off. Then they don’t eat or drink, the lack of drinking could lead to UC.

I would start on polio and listeriosis treatment, if you want to save him. It is your family’s choice to let him go or not, but I’m not sure if I would do so without having a vet out to see him.

Can you take an updated rectal temp? That may tell us more.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Yes! We will try to take his temp again. It definitely looks like listeriosis. We have penicillin. Is it too late to treat?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

If there is even a slight chance he has rabies, you need to take precaution and wear gloves. Like NDO707 said, it is rare in goats but not impossible. Aggression can be due to pain. There just seems to be a lot going on with him and You really need Vet hands ON HIM..to see how best to help him.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Yes please to the emergency vet number! 
should the penicillin be given IM or SUBQ?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Not sure if this adds anything to the rabies thing. Maybe just coincidence, but our outdoor cat is missing his collar, and a possum has been lurking around. Just thought I’d mention it. :shrug:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Penicillin is sub q..1 cc per 10 pounds when addressing listeriosis 

Be sure to pull back the plunger and check for blood. No blood is good to go..of you draw up blood..re adjust and try again.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Liam has crossed the rainbow bridge.


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## mmahamilton (Jun 25, 2020)

CaramelKittey said:


> Not sure if this adds anything to the rabies thing. Maybe just coincidence, but our outdoor cat is missing his collar, and a possum has been lurking around. Just thought I'd mention it
> You don't have to worry abt getting rabies from a possum because their body temp is too low to harbor the virus that causes it.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh man..i'm sorry. 
Are you able to have a necropsy done? If he had rabies..you need to know.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Thank you. 
Yes, I agree. We are planning on having one done for sure. Any recommendations would be great.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I’m so sorry. This is just awful.

NJ state ag lab takes necropsies I believe.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Call your vet. He should be able to arrange it. Or if there is a vet school near by. For tonight I beleive he needs to be kept cool. 

Again. Im very sorry for your loss.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

https://jerseyvetlab.nj.gov


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would call your vet emergency number. Let them know you suspect he died of rabies..even if not sure..A quick Google says when rabies are a concern necropsy needs to be done within 6 hours of death.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

happybleats said:


> Call your vet. He should be able to arrange it. Or if there is a vet school near by. For tonight I beleive he needs to be kept cool.
> 
> Again. Im very sorry for your loss.


Nearest vet school is Penn.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I don't know if either of these will go to your area:

https://valleybrookvet.com/services

https://rancocasvet.com/large-animal-ambulatory-care/emergency-care/


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## mmahamilton (Jun 25, 2020)

CaramelKittey said:


> Thank you.
> Yes, I agree. We are planning on having one done for sure. Any recommendations would be great.


An intact brain is needed to do diagnostic testing for rabies. If you highly suspect this please be careful...especially of the saliva.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

I am so very sorry you lost him!
:hug::imsorry:


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm so sorry to hear this. It sounds like you did everything you could for him. At least now he is at peace.:rose:


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

(embarrassed):imsorry::upset::angel:
I am so sorry. He was just in too much pain. He knew you were helping him. He is in a better place now. Prayers to you.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Just caught up on this thread. I'm so sorry you lost Liam. He was a beautiful goat. His short "bounce back" may have been because his bladder burst. They feel better once the pressure is relieved, but then as sepsis kicks in they go downhill very quickly. This is a terrible disease. It may be too late now, but if you can open him up and see what his bladder looks like and collect the stones and have them analyzed it could help you figure out what may have caused them and prevent future problems with other goats.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Thank you everybody.:hug:

Does anybody know of a lab that will pick him up? We really don’t have a great way to transport him. And, thank you, We will be very careful around him.
Thank you.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

How long is he still viable for a necropsy? We are trying to get a state vet to get him.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Oh no, I'm so so sorry you lost him! Both of you gave it a good fight. He knew you loved him. (HUGS!)


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

So sorry for your loss. You did everything you could to help him.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so very sorry.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Thanks everybody. :bighug:
It’s sad not having Liam around, and we miss him. Yes, it is one less mouth to feed and gives us the opportunity to expand our herd, but I still wish he was here with us. Even though he was skittish, he was still the sweet, lovable, medicine-loving (loved Probiotics and took all medicine (except the dreaded copper-bolus) so easily) ‘comic relief’ to the farm. He was a great goat. :angel:


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

(console)Hugs!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

(console)


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Even though we couldn’t get a necropsy done, we contacted our state vet to come down and she took a couple lymph nodes for scrapie testing. We asked her what she thought it could’ve been (and showed her the video, and described everything in as much detail as possible) and she said it was highly like that it was UC. 
She said if it were rabies, he would’ve lasted much longer. 
Thankfully none of our other goats are having issues, so hopefully that means it was just UC and not something contagious or zoonotic.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

I am glad you got an answer, even though it is sad.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree with the vet but am glad she took a few samples to run on him. ((Hugs))


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

@MadHouse and @happybleats, thank you.


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