# Ethics and castration &c



## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Please help me to inform the friends in the Swedish goat forum! I found an entry here, that caught my attention, and I started a thread in Sweden to discuss how we want things to be done. Now someone asks about how things are done, can you check that we are correctly informed:

1 The word "banding" means to put a strong rubber band around the testicles or around a horn, to prevent blood from entering the part of the body, so that it dies and falls off.

2 This method is used without any pain reducer in the USA and in New Zealand, for example.

As I am saying in my thread up here, this method is not allowed in Sweden, for animal protection reasons. Our state authority says:

_"Kastrering och avhorning ska utföras av veterinär, och ska ske under bedövning."_

That should be in English: "Castration and dehorning must be done by a veterinary, and must be done under anaestesia."

My intention with my Swedish thread is to discuss ethics. In this one I will also appreciate information on how things are done!

Information or comments, anyone?


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## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't like the idea of banding, horns especially. To me, it's the same as if you were to put a tight rubber band around your finger and wait until your finger falls off. I've chosen to use the disbudding iron when it comes to dehorning (on kids) and either not purchasing horned goats or leaving horns on if I were find one I just can't pass up, and using a Burdizzo on the boys. 

Is it a common practice to dehorn goats in Sweden? If so, is it usually done as kids or adult goats? Just wondering because I've read that, at least in the US, there are very few vets who will do the procedure because it is very risky.


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

The regulations in the UK are the same.... Many experienced folks in a UK goat group I'm in are frustated by this (especially the dehorning) because they have had experiences with incompetent vets similar to those that we in the US deal with but are unable to perform the procedure themselves despite the fact that in some cases they are better informed and more capable.... 

Here is a small thing I found on a document... says that banding is recognized as the least painful...

"Why do Animal Welfare Approved standards set age limits on castration?
Although little specific information is available on castration age and welfare in 
goats, a lot of research has been carried out on this topic for sheep. Regardless of 
what method of castration is used – or the age of the animal – the procedure will be 
painful. However, a number of studies have shown that the older the lamb is when it 
is castrated, the greater the pain involved. For example, Kent et al (1999) argue that 
lambs castrated at 28 or 42 days were more likely to develop inflammation and 
lesions than lambs castrated a two days of age.
To minimise welfare issues lambs – and hence kids – should be castrated as soon as 
possible, although only after they have received sufficient colostrum. This usually 
means that the lamb or kid should be at least 24 hours old before the operation 
takes place. 
The rubber ring is widely recognised as the least painful method of castration. Pain 
can be reduced if the rubber ring method is combined with the use of the Burdizzo 
and where smaller bands are used. Mellema et al (2006) looked at different methods 
of bloodless castration and concluded that both rubber rings and Burdizzo clamps 
could be used in lambs at up to seven days of age, although they recommend that
local anaesthetic was also used. 
It is worth noting that UK law prohibits the use of rubber ring banding as castration 
for all kids, lambs or calves older than seven days unless anesthetic is used. 
Researchers have shown that anesthetic and analgesic are very effective in 
improving welfare at castration. In the US, however, the very limited number of pain 
relieving drugs licensed for farm livestock means that it is difficult for farmers buy
products that they can use themselves on their own stock for castration and other 
operations. Animal Welfare Approved therefore has to work on the best welfare
outcome without using anesthetic, which is castration at an early age – hence our 
standard."

Do note that this document advises younger castration but this has also been correlated to increased likelihood of UC.... which I feel I can safely say is a lot more painful than being banded at a slightly older age... I think the best of both worlds (mostly just speculation here) would likely be the administration of a local anesthetic either by a vet or the owner and then use of a band/burdizzo... I believe i've read that most kids seem pretty happy by the next day or so so maybe the block would numb the pain for long enough that it had mostly worn off.... I'm personally not so keen on the idea of complete anesthesia since goats are so sensitive and because so many vets are less knowledgeable about them.....

anyway just my 2 cents.... probably didn't answer your question at all...just rambled instead but you might find some part of that helpful 
M.

oh and btw banding of horns is generally only used on adult goats with fully developed horns... when a goat is young it is disbudded often with a disbudding iron and sometimes (though I think this is a lot more rare) with caustic paste...


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## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

I did my own banding and disbudding this year on all my kids. It was so easy both for me and for the kids. The disbudding was done quickly and since the kids were here, they could be returned to their mothers within seconds of finishing. They did scream for a few seconds, but when I was done, they stopped and did not act 'off' at all the rest of the day. The banding was a surprise to me, in that the boys didn't react when I put the bands on. It was only after a few minutes that they would look back there.. and then went and laid down for the rest of the afternoon. The next day, they were up and playing..not running as much... but by the next day, they were acting totally normal. I used no pain meds for either procedure, the distress was over so quickly that it was not necessary.
I've heard many stories from people who took their goats to vets, and the vets did a lousy job, resulting in the loss of the animal. Sometimes this was due to the vet's lack of know-how, and other times it was the anesthesia which is always a risk in animals (and people) (you can read some of the stories here)
I am not against vets.. I just feel I care more for my own animals, and know their basic needs... and I can handle this.: I also wont make a thoughtless mistake on my own animals. 

I treasure the fact that here, we are still allowed to raise our livestock animals as we see fit. Most livestock owners are responsible and respectful of how the animals feel... it just makes sense to have healthy, happy animals. The treatments/procedures that I perform on my animals are on their behalf.. in order for them to be healthy, safe and pleasurable to be around. I hope my own story helps you in your discussion.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

I have used burning as my dehorning method of choice and they scream the most from being restrained. Once it is over, they are running and playing as soon as they are back with mom. I have heard many horror stories from people who have had the vet do it. I myself had a vet dehorn a one-year old doe b/c i really wanted to keep her, but her horns were a danger to everyone. She had anesthesia and was groggy the rest of the day and acted like she was very uncomfortable for a couple days after.

As for banding, i wish i had a safe anesthesia to use. My boys did not react at first either - for about 10 seconds and then they got this shocked look and shrieked. When i put them back with their moms they just laid down. I did end up giving them aspirin (or I might have given it a half hour before, i really don't remember) but I didn't see them acting normal until well into the second day. They were 7 weeks old. I didn't want to do it too young, and I didn't dare wait longer b/c they were already mounting their moms and sisters. 

When i was in pre-vet school we castrated calves and piglets as part of our class in the early 90's. (i didn't take the sheep class, but it was probably similar) We cut open the sac, pulled out the testicles, scraped the cord until it broke, and let the remainder go back into the sac. NO ANESTHESIA. Babies wer running around like normal by the next day (I don't recall the immediate reaction, probably they weren't happy) But that was how they trained vet students then. All i know is that having the vet castrate dogs and cats is super expensive and i can't imagine having the vet castrate all farm animals with anesthesia and have it cost effective in any way.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Hearing that there are laws like this scares me. They keep putting more and more restrictions on what we can and cannot do with our livestock in the US.
Is there socialized medicine for livestock in Sweden? Because here, it would cost me more than my animals are worth to have a veterinarian castrate and disbud them.
We are very kind to our animals. We disbud with a hot iron that only causes them to cry until I count to 8. We have castrated with bands and surgically and in both cases they are back with Mama and nursing within minutes. I would much prefer this to having my animals anesthetized .


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh, what a response! I am so glad you want to write in my thread. But all your answers will keep me busy reading for days! :wink: So for now just

THANK YOU A LOTT!!!


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I'd like to know, how much does it cost for you folks to have your animals castrated by a vet? How much can you sell a neutered male for? Do they go to "pet" homes or for the meat market. 

There was a case, it's been awhile. Were someone had a goat that was in really bad shape and dying. The owner was unable to humanely euthanize her animal because of those crazy laws, and the vet wouldn't/couldn't (?) come out and do it. I felt so sorry for her, she clearly could have done the right thing if it would have been legal for her. So the poor animal just suffered till it eventually died...I know, for a fact, that animal suffered, unnecessarily. Explain to me how that is "humane". 

After I'd had my vet out here several times, she said, "you can not afford for me to come out and do everything for you...you must learn to do these things for yourself...I'll teach you." She was right and I'm very thankful for her tutelage. But, at $45. per boy to surgically castrate...this is another thing I found I can do myself...and yes...I band boys...and they are all happy, healthy boys when they go to there new homes as beloved pets.

I'm pretty sure that we would give any politician an early exit from office if they promoted that non-sense.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Thanks again for your answers so far. I have been reading them, but so far not ready to answer. Things have happened in my life that hinders me from computering too much ...


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