# Fist size lump in "bag" (pictures) & thin goat...?



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I have a (hopefully) bred doe, due March 18, that I have been having one heck of a time putting weight on! We dried her off just after breeding her because she was on the thin side after the year of milking. (Shes just a little mini Alpine and gives us well over a gallon a day) so I thought she deserved a good break and I'd use this time to fatten her up before kidding.

She has free choice hay. I give her & her sister 1 flake AM and replace the "unwanted stuff" with a fresh flake in the PM. I have five different types of hay, they prefer and get a second cutting grass/clover/alfalfa mix.

Grain time is a pain because her sister is at a nice weight and loves food, so I put Lorena on the stand to eat and its a toss up as to if she bolts her food, turns her nose up all together or eats about half. She is offered 1 cup beet pulp, 1 cup alfalfa pellets, 1 cup BOSS and 1 quart of Purina goat, twice daily, and has not gained weight since we've dried her off? What am I missing?!

Now for the next puzzle, what is this lump? I might recall Lorana having excess skin/a puffy look there but never any reason for me to take more than a second glance. I am not sure when this became a lump, but it was easy to notice this morning so I'd say its very recent. I'm not sure what to call the area but its a fist sized, hard lump, that she doesn't appreciate me checking out, where her bag/udder connects in the back end.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

First, I would have a fecal done to include coccidia. A worm load would stop her from gaining weight.

I'm wondering if she has some sort of infection or something with the udder. Can you have a vet or very knowledgeable goat person physically look at that? I'm assuming that is the lump just below her bum?


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree , I would take her to a vet and have whatever is in there tested. If she is preggo, this needs to be addressed before she kids, it may or may not interfere at kidding time. I am very concerned for her.


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

The does did have full fecal tests done and were de-wormed again just before I bred them but I do not think that it would hurt to collect some poop and test again. I am positive that worms is not the reason for her in-ability to gain weight. I guess its time to call a vet out for this "lump" though if no one is recognizing it. She does not have a temp, if she had an infection wouldn't she have a temp? 

Agreed, I am concerned for the little girl too


----------



## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

Be sure when they run a fecal they are checking for cocci also. I hope the lump is nothing major, let us know what you find out.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Let us know what the vet says, I have never seen anything like that. Could be a tumor too, but I hope it is not.


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I have been waiting to avoid a weekend emergency call since Lorena does not have a temp and is not acting in any way unusual, the vet will be out this evening. 

BUT in the mean time, this morning the sack/lump/abscess did rip open and is draining - which is gross but makes me feel better. I'll be interested to see if he has run into something like this before, maybe just some antibiotics and of course I'll run a fecal to hopefully figure out the thin issue (other than picky eater).


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you have the vet coming out, you can always have her tested for Johnes too.


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

What is that?


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Johnes info: http://www.johnes.org/goats/faqs.html

What did the puss look like?


----------



## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

Here's another from WADDL- testing site; http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/dx/johnes.aspx


----------



## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

She doesn't look thin enough for Johne's and if she hasn't been rapidly losing weight I would say that is not the issue. As for the lump I have not seen one like that especially if it appeared suddenly. That's not a normal lymph node site for CL either. I would think maybe a fecal bacteria abscess. Has she had changes in stool recently - been constipated or harder stools than normal or more mushy or watery? Please let us know what the vet says as most of us have not seen one such as this.


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I could have her tested for Johne's but no, she hasn't lost weight rapidly. Shes been around the same weight for the 9 or so months that I've owned her. It has gone up and down a little. Thin was understandable when she was giving so much milk but I thought that she'd pack weight back on once we dried her off. She was getting about six quarts of feed while milking & like I said 2 1/2 or so quarts a day now that she is dried off. More if she eats it, free choice hay/alfafa always

Compared to her sister who is, what I think is the ideal goat weight?


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Weight wise its a little hard to see what I can see in person.

Her stools are normal, not loose, not funny colored etc..

And this is what I mean by pus:


















The vet just called and re-scheduled for tomorrow afternoon


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I hope it isn't serious, sorry it was re-scheduled  The wait must be killing you.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

She doesn't look too bad. She does need to put some weight on. But agree that it doesn't look like Johnes.

Have you given her any B Complex shots? I would give her a B Complex shot. I would also give her Probios daily for at least a week. I think I would also get some Calf Manna and maybe subtract a cup of the Purina and add a cup of Calf Manna. Of course start slowly with a quarter or half cup and build up to the one cup.

I'm assuming you are feeding her separately. To help with her coat, you could put some Wheat Germ Oil over her feed. I buy Rex Brand Wheat Germ Oil and the goats just love that stuff over their feed. It takes a good 6 weeks to see a great difference but you start seeing a difference in a couple weeks.


----------



## FunnyRiverFarm (Sep 13, 2008)

Are you planning to have the abscess exudate tested? If not, use gentle pressure and try to squeeze some of that puss out of the abscess. Get it as "cleaned out" as you can and then flush the area with iodine. If you are going to get it tested, wait for the vet to come out and take a sample before you mess with it.


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I hope it turns out well for you and your goat! I'll be watching this post to see what the vet says!

Very pretty goats BTW


----------



## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Honestly it looks like your goats are in beautiful dairy condition. Some goat just don't like to hold weight on themselves very well. I really don't think she has Johnes or CL, as like someone said that isn't a very common lymph node. And I have dealt with Johnes in dairy cattle, have never had lesions besides from pressure sores (on a lame cow), injection sites, or sudden impact sites (say a cow fell flat on her side). Some of the workers were pinching bags while wiping the cows and that pressure can create a pus pocket top. Wonder if some rough housing was in check?


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Well, the vet is betting on CL. He said that it is in a common location, though face/shoulder would be more typical. He feels that it looks "normal" for CL and is exuding the expected discharge.

He said that blood testing is not accurate so he would not bother with having her tested. 

He said that we could squirt iodine/water in the abscess to help clear it up and see what happens, use/milk her as we'd intended to but he also suggested selling her before she infected her sister. 

My thoughts, wouldn't I NOT want to drink milk from a goat with CL, especially one with an abscess right near her udder? And who would want to buy her, that seems irresponsible, is her only option to be euthanized? 

Then, what about her sister? What could the odds possibly be that she hasn't already contracted the disease? Do I dare use her for milk this year (we drink raw...)? 

I had him draw blood to have both does tested for CAE and sent him with poop samples to check for cocci and worms as well. 

So now what


----------



## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

First it sounds like your vet doesn't know much about CL. With that said, you definitely would NOT want to drink CL infected milk. It is highly contagious and contagious to humans! If that is what she has, her sister and any other goats are probably already infected and anyone that expelled the pus without using gloves. Blood testing is accurate unless they have had the vaccine. I would get her tested pronto. And look for another Vet knowing he was going to get you infected from drinking raw milk.

ADDED: Here's two great sites about CL and treatment after infection if you do not want to cull her. 
http://www.clgoatcare.org/#5.0
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/formalin06.html

But this is my opinion only and it could be CL, but I really think it is something else. I would get a second opinion or treat as CL and get her tested.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Get another opinion. That vet is not accurate, in saying not to have her tested and not to bother.

If it is CL, the vet is suppose to test the goo for accurate results, it needs to be tested,
to confirm, she has it or not for sure. It may just be staff infection. Of course be cautious.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would have the pus tested. Definitely don't drink the milk if she has CL. If she does, I would have her put down. But have the test done first to be sure.


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Thank-you for the input. I will call him tomorrow and TELL him to send tests for CL. My gut instinct was to say test her anyway, but I didn't really know. This is the vet in the area (believe me, we have this trouble with the horses needed vetted... sigh...) 

I did suggest having the goo tested and he made it sound like that was possible if it wasn't already draining but wasn't possible for some reason now. I guess I'll call him back out - grrr. He said that vaccinations for CL do not work, is that true?


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

If humans can get it, can the other animals as well (cats, dogs, horses....?)


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I've contacted Washington State U and am rounding up a fresh pus sample to over night to them tomorrow morning. In the mean time we've isolated the does from the herd of horses. Unfortunately I have absolutely no way to separate the two goats so if this test is positive I'll have to send a blood test on her sister Annabelle and see if we are putting one doe or two does down


----------



## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

What consistency is the pus? CL pus typically looks like cottage cheese. 

She doesn't look too thin, I have a couple Alpine does who never get fat, they just stay the same all the time. Be careful about feeding too much grain, goats need hay more than they need grain. Their stomachs don't function the same as a horse. If she is refusing grain she is probably getting too much, their rumen can get acidic from too much grain and will give them a tummy ache and make them not want to eat it. If any of my dry does get any grain during their pregnancy they only get 1/2 lb per day. Goats are just like people, some get fat easy and some are just naturally lean.


----------



## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

While it is common belief that CL is very contagious to humans and other species, I have never run across any animal that has contracted CL by exposure to an infected goat. I know of several goat owners who have a CL infected goat that is in contact daily with other animals from horses, chickens, ducks, peacocks, pigs, donkeys, sheep and dogs and cats. Not one of any of the other animals has ever come down with any symptoms of CL.

My brother has a CL infected goat. At the first sign of abscess he lanced and disinfected it. He then started the use of the autogenous vaccine program. He has horses, goats, and chickens. Although I disagree with his farm cleaning practice, he chose not to disinfect his land believing if the bacteria was there, it was there. So besides cleaning abscess and using the vaccine program, he did nothing else special. He continued to use multi feeders and waterers and the goat is around all animals. including other goats Not one of the other animals has ever contracted CL from this one goat. His other goats did not contract CL.

The first article I posted earlier has information about Shambhala Farm's herd and a farm sanctuary where there are many rescue goats infected with CL and are around other animals including horses and non of them have ever come down with any symptoms of CL either. She has made great strides in maintaining the health of CL infected goats so they can live a normal life without further abscesses. Shambhala is the first non-commercial goat owner to use the autogenous vaccine on a permanent basis for treatment of CL. It's a really good read even if you decide to cull your goat.

But CL is not a death sentence if you choose to endure the time and money it takes to provide for their treatment; and from experiences I have seen - is not highly contagious to other species.


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Thanks.

The pus was yellow and goopy, typical of what I'd expect to see from an abscess. It didn't look like cottage cheese to me. The vet was able to squeeze most out in his visit. So much so that it didn't leave much when we tried to collect a sample to send in! I am not sure how much they'll need, we more or less have bloodly looking swabs to send in, maybe I can collect some in the morning.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

The vet should of taken the goo sample first, not sure how much is needed, but I am sure they want a reasonable amount. Not just a swab.

Did the goo stink?


----------



## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Here a link on here I found with a doe with a similar lump near udder. Came back as negative for CL just a normal infected abscess - http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/help-lumps-udder-138205/index2.html


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

mjgh06 said:


> Here a link on here I found with a doe with a similar lump near udder. Came back as negative for CL just a normal infected abscess - http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/help-lumps-udder-138205/index2.html


That is what it looks like, lets cross our fingers! 
I am not at all positive that we were able to get enough pus for them to test, I mailed it anyway and if that does not work I will have to get my hands on some red top tubes, research how to draw blood and I will send a sample in that way. We - apparently - missed the blood testing day anyways, so if this works we'll get a result quicker.

The abscess appears to have drained and is now on the mend. After we took what we could as samples I flushed it with betadine/water and packed it full of Yarrow. Where upon I set to chlorhexidine-ing my barn 

toth- I did not notice any smell, no.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Keep it open for a few days and flush with the iodine daily, squeeze out anything you can get out. With any infection, if any is kept in there, can re-infect.

Fingers crossed for you. :hug:


----------



## brownie (Jan 31, 2013)

I have no idea. I had a Doe who had one on her neck the size of a softball we took her to the vet


----------



## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Not one of the common CL abcess sites but it is one where nodes are....I'm sorry that your vet acted as he did, blood tests are accurate and when an abcess is present, it's best to test both the pus as well as blood. I do hope that it's a simple staph type infection and not CL.


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Question, 
Does a staph infection act any different than the CL? I mean, does CL have more persistent abscesses typically, smelly, anything notably different between the two? Couldn't really find my answer in searching around online. The hole is closed up and the thing is barley noticeable now.


----------



## LamanchaAcres (Jan 11, 2013)

We have a doe just like her (nt same breed) but wont gain alot of weight. They are just very very dairy. To me your doe Doesnt look to thin.


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Fecal results came back and Annabelle had very few worms, Lorena has what he called on the high side of acceptable but he suggested de-worming them both with Cydectin pour on. I have been using Safeguard or Ivermec horse de-wormers and upping the dose (only de-wormed them two or three times since I've had them).
He also said that he did not see any coccidia in either sample, so that is good. 

Still waiting to hear on the CL test, should be Wednesday or so before I know if the samples were sufficient. Sigh.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Maureen said:


> Question,
> Does a staph infection act any different than the CL? I mean, does CL have more persistent abscesses typically, smelly, anything notably different between the two? Couldn't really find my answer in searching around online. The hole is closed up and the thing is barley noticeable now.


 Staff can smell bad, I have read that CL doesn't have an odor.


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Well, I sent what little we could get from the abscess & they said that they could use it but it was very un-ideal. He called with the results and said that they did not see anything that lead them to believe it was CL. *YAY* BUT... he wanted to know if we could have the abscess removed and sent in for better testing. 
Unfortunately, I cannot. I do not have a vet who is willing to do this & the abscess is closed, we tried to lance and express anything else in there and there was nothing to send in. He said our next best option was to send in a blood sample on both does but he said that that is far less reliable then having sent in a proper sample if my vet would have been so kind as to have done that for me, arg. 

Would you feel comfortable calling her CL free with a neg from the sample we sent (literally a few dirty q-tips, there wasn't much left for us to send in!) and then a blood test?


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

blood work will show antibodies fighting against Cl so yes..blood work should help clarify...but in my experience...years ago...we had purchased several boar that ended up having CL...it does not smell bad..looks cottage cheese like and sometimes has clear to lightly bloodied liquid...none of the girls with CL dropped weight or acted sick in any way...we lanced and look care of the CL on property with very strict protocols...nothing hit the ground! took four years to clean up the property and goats..


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Alright, one more question for ya'll since I don't know if my vet would have the answer. 

I made an appointment to have blood drawn to test that way as well. My understanding is that something in the blood sample will show something elevated and thus indicate that the goat is fighting something significant and lead us to assume CL, correct? Then CL or no CL she has an abscess so couldn't the whatever they are looking for that is raised in the blood be up because she is fighting whatever caused the abscess anyways?


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If she is fighting anything, her white cell count would be up. But they are testing specifically for CL. So if it is any other type of abscess, that won't show up in a CL test. I think I'm answering your question anyway.


----------



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Hmm. The vet that I talked to at WADDL said that they cannot test for CL unless they test the pus. In the blood test they are looking for an elevated, assuming, white count and my question was couldn't it be elevated from a number of things? 
The sample we did send in, from the abscess, came back negative but they wanted to double check with a blood test.


----------

