# Possibly starting a grade A dairy....



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

So, I'm unemployed once again, and some of my family & friends seem to think this would be the perfect opportunity to go into business myself... I would also sell eggs, Christmas trees, and blueberries... I would like to do this, but I'm not sure it's practical on 7 acres.. I'm also hoping I won't have to sell my non registered milkers, as I'm attached to a few of them, as I think I have to have registered, at least that's what someone told me... Well, I have a lot of reading to do in the mean time.... Anyone else on this venture?


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No, your goats don't have to be registered for a dairy. You will need an extra $30,000 to $50,000 laying around for your buildings and equipment. Are you on a dairy truck route? That could be a problem as well.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

My family and friends have offered to help with the start up cost... I was estimating 70,000. I'm just unsure of it all being on just 7 acres. My sister seems to think it will work... I would only have up to 15 goats, probably 10 - 12 milkers. Glad to hear I don't have to have registered stock. I will have some I'm sure, but I don't want to give up the standard ones I have now...


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

You'll have to give up any slackers, registered or not. Your capital expenses will put you so dependent on margins that you can't afford any slackers.

7 acres - you can do a dairy on 1 acre, so 7 gives you exercise room. But bought feed is expensive, grazed feed is only labor-expensive - and most dairies don't survive on either of those revenue models.

I'm being harsh. Sorry. If you have the market - and you'd better know before you take 70k from loved ones - you can make and market superior products and make 7 acres work, but the chances are *really* slim.

I've had no success finding cost-effective farm insurance for diversified revenue base. I hope other folks will chime in here and tell you I'm way off base. But the agents I've talked to - most won't touch eggs, and they don't like eggs and goats, and if I throw in a handful of stud fees a year, I'm radioactive to them. And I don't even sell milk.

If any of your decisions have an "I'm attached to these goats" factor, you will probably fail. I'm sorry - harsh - but dairying goats on a small scale is so tenuous to begin with. If you want any of your decisions to factor on quality of life, you need to do some hard research to find out if that's realistic. I say that because my research says it's not, not because I'm trying to piddle on your parade.

There are some creative options for creating farm facilities using portable, flexible options like shipping containers. The costs are possibly lower, and the infrastructure is saleable if your dairy doesn't succeed.

The odds are against a small dairy selling commodity milk to wholesalers. Do you have a customer base that will support local milk? Can you sell to that customer base legally? A lot of farms do herd-share sales, and a lot of them do it _wrong_, opening themselves up to a lot of hurt. But herd-share prices are often realistic to pay for the herd costs of a common small farm; wholesale needs huge numbers to work. Value-added products can be more profitable, but then there are additional regulatory, insurance, and infrastructure hurdles.

Chances are, you'll be married to the milking and marketing and never see your goats from the front end. If you have influence with local buyers and raise your goats to produce superior milk, you _might_ be able to sell at a price that supports the operation. Most small farms can't. Many customers want a superior product until they see the price. *Most* customers don't care how good the product is, they can buy milk at safeway for 1.99 a gallon and anything else is highway robbery.

And, after putting in a lot of time at farmer's markets, in between putting in a lot of time making my farm products superior, I believe that that's the bottom line. Most customers will compare your superior product to the loss-leader price at the grocery store, and they'll walk away. If you can convince them to pay - you'll spend so much time per customer just getting them to give you a chance, you won't have time to find other customers to make the revenue model work.

Please prove me wrong. That 1.99 milk is crap that makes people sick. Please find a market that will pay you a fair wage for a better product. But please be *sure* you have that market before you put a full retirement's worth of money into producing a better product for a consumer base that might just want a cheaper product.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Well, WA does have a few factors that can contribute to some success. It is legal to sell your raw goats milk at Coops and Health food stores there. The people want the fresh raw milk, especially as you get closer to Seattle. 

Herd shares, however, are illegal in any form there. 

Are you sure you don't just want to move to Oregon? You can own up to 9 female goats, sell the milk right off your farm, sell your eggs right off the farm, and need no inspection or permit to do it. You can even advertise your milk and eggs for sale now, they changed that last year.


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Are you sure you don't just want to move to Oregon? You can own up to 9 female goats, sell the milk right off your farm, sell your eggs right off the farm, and need no inspection or permit to do it. You can even advertise your milk and eggs for sale now, they changed that last year.


Access to Seattle markets might make Washington an advantage. Portland has some money, but there are a lot of wildcat farms selling really cheap, just to recoup some of their feed costs. It's hard to compete against $3 a dozen organic eggs (that doesn't cover costs let alone labor or capital expense) or milk prices as low as $3 a gallon for local goat milk.

Is anyone finding viable insurance for farm-direct milk sales? I've had no luck.

I'm a member of the farm-to-consumer legal defense fund and I read their updates and WAPF and Rawmi. I think it was FTCLDF that reported the story of the Washington state dairy raided for selling supposedly tainted milk. Regulators hate raw milk, and the Oregon newspapers pile right on with them. If you don't own your farm or anything else, insurance may not be an issue (the Washington case, IIRC, none of the sickened customers sued). But two things scare the heck out of insurers: Milk and eggs. I've quizzed some agents on this - they say it's not whether the someone would win a case, it's the risk of paying legal defense costs, even against a baseless claim. There's so much hyperbole against raw milk that insurers don't think they can win a case, period. If you pasteurize the milk, the insurance company has to make sure you do everything right, and the premiums have to be high enough to pay for an underwriter to come out and make sure that there's never one drop of "bad" milk ever leaving the farm.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Farming is a hard life. It is extremely time consuming. Think through what it would take to actually make a profit.

If you really want to do farming, you might also want to consider sheep and goats for the meat.

I will say while I loved doing the alpacas, I'm so thankful to be done. To be able to leave the farm and not worry about anything for a day is priceless. And I'm not even talking about going away overnight.


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Karen is right about the time it takes to farm. Having animals means things are more difficult as you know. Running a full time grade a dairy is even more time consuming. Everything has to run on schedule and run without a hitch. Right now, you can decide what to do with milk when you are medicating. With a grade a dairy, you have to use approved meds only and watch your withdrawal times with no exceptions. You will be tied down....period. You will go nowhere unless it's only for a few hours....especially where you are running such a small operation that you are basically the only employee. Your margins of profit will be minute on that small an operation also. I honestly don't know if you could make a living with it or not. Before you make the step to borrow money from your friends and family to start it up, you better have a solid financial outlook so you know exactly what you are going to be able to make. You will have to budget for feed and it needs to be dairy quality which is going to cost WAY more! 

Having said all that....It would be fantastic if you could make it work. But it will be harder than you might think.


----------



## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

I had some friends who had a dairy. They sold organic goat cheese all over the East Coast. They are retired now but IIRC correctly, despite being very successful they did not earn as much as the wife earned as a teacher in a very rural county and they put in about 60 hours each.:thumbup:


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Some other thoughts....do you have a separate income for your family? (can't remember if you're married or not or get retirement, etc) Can you LIVE on that single income? You need to figure at least 2 years before seeing any kind of profit after starting. 

You will need to figure out a minimum production for each doe that will give you a break even point....and that needs to be at the low point of lactation! Any doe that does not produce that minimum will need to be culled regardless of pet status. 

You will need to kid at least 3 times, if not 4, per year in order to have a maximum quantity of milk available at all times. 

Can you store bulk feed? You will most likely need to buy feed in bulk in order to minimize the cost cut that cost margin down.


----------



## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

If that's your dream, go for it, but make sure you go in with eyes wide open. I know a couple who quit their jobs as RNs relatively late in life to start a goat dairy. They spent a significant amount of money starting it with the costs of construction, licenses, goats, etc., but they were able to get some funding from local grants since they're fairly unique in the area. They only have 6 acres and they make it work. They sell artisanal goat cheese in local markets and sell the rest of the milk to a larger dairy for processing and selling. They make far, far less than they did as RNs and work 10-12 hours a day, everyday. As a small, independent producer, they have to do all of their own milking, cheese production, herd management, marketing, sales, bookkeeping, etc. However, that was their dream, and they're happy with it.

If you're serious about it, you need to go in with a concrete business plan. Find out what your local market looks like and figure out who, what, where, and how much. Run the numbers, not just of start-up costs, but also of production costs, insurance costs, and overhead (water, power, taxes, etc.). I don't know if doing just milk in your market will make sense with a small herd (it doesn't really around here), so you might want to look at cheeses as well, if that's something you're interested in and comfortable with. Look at all of the requirements to sell dairy products in your state, plus USDA requirements if you might end up selling products in neighboring states (anytime you cross a border to sell something, it's interstate commerce and governed by federal law). The USDA allows grade B dairies to produce manufactured dairy products like cheese, but not drinking milk for consumers. However, getting a grade b dairy license is easier and less expensive if it looks like cheese and/or butter might be a better income stream. You should also think about exactly how and where you want to market your products.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

WOW!! A lot of good advice here Goathiker it would be tempting to move to Oregon. I know people are trying to get the same law passed here, but most likely it won't happen... Weird thing is I could probably make a whole lot of money if I grew pot, yeah such is life in WA state... Most likely I will be doing both milk & meat, but I would rather just sell to the Russian/Ukrainian community who seems to knock down my doors for milk... (One case was darn right scary, and the police and a restraining order was involved...) I do have a food storage shed, I am single although I know my sisters want to get in on this too. I think it's partly because they don't want to see condos on this place, I don't either... I think that's why one of my sisters wants to get into Christmas trees, and blueberries, and not just rely on eggs and milk.. I won't be thrilled with the hours LOL, but who knows what could happen.. I know it's not going to be easy... If I choose to keep a few pets, they will be for brush clearing in the spring/summer months, which is huge here. I am probably going to start that side of things as soon as I can get insurance for it...Realistically not sure about the dairy really, but I'll keep researching, praying, and we'll see what happens


----------



## Greybird (May 14, 2014)

Yipes! Wall of text warning! Sorry ..

The man who sold me my Alpine goats runs a small-scale dairy here in WA 
( https://www.facebook.com/pages/Steamboat-Island-Goat-Farm/131510473584909 ) and, while my husband and I were talking to him, one of the things that he happened to mention, while he was helping us prepare to bottle-feed our 4 new babies, was that he no longer sold goat milk for human consumption. 
I wasn't paying very close attention, but the impression I got was that there was a lot of bureaucratic rigmarole involved, and that he was tired of dealing with it since the financial reward was so small. He had had loyal local clients who bought his milk, but alas - not enough of them to pay the bills. 
He switched over to making artisan goat cheese and selling it primarily at the Olympia Co-op. I believe he also sells it at some other places, but that was the one place where he said that he could always be found. He was, I believe, still working to acquire brand recognition, but he had already done very well in some local reviews.
I don't know how well he does with that system, and I haven't spoken with him since last April, but his dairy and the surrounding area is well-maintained and gorgeous. I have no idea how much land it covers but it looks like it's been there for quite a while, like maybe it was land that was already in the family? (Just guessing.)

Anyway, have you considered skipping the milk sales and going directly to cheese? (Maybe with a small sideline of soaps or lotions that could be made from any "iffy" milk.) I'm not much of a risk-taker and I like to cover all the bases and start small with new ideas, so that the loss is minimal if things go wrong.
I was thinking that focusing on cheese might allow you to dodge some of the legal pitfalls inherent in selling fresh milk as well as give you a little bit more flexibility with your scheduling. The bad news is that it probably wouldn't pay you enough to live, at least not for quite a while. Sadly, I don't think that milk sales would either, but you could be establishing some brand name recognition with cheese that could later transfer to fresh milk sales if/when you were ready to go that route.

More bad news: Even Walmart sells goat milk now, as well as goat cheese, and a large percentage of people use Walmart's prices as a basis for comparison. 
(Those same people then wonder why they can't find any good quality, local items for sale on those rare occasions when they decide that they want to splurge.)

(Don't get me started .... grrrr..)

Think it through. Weigh the pros and cons, and then make the decision that feels right to YOU. You know your own resources better than anybody else does. (Have a contingency plan already in place in case you get the flu! 'Just sayin', since I have it, and .. let's just say that my husband's well-intended attempt at feeding our goats could have gone a little bit better...)

One thing that's in your favor is that goat products of all kinds are very much an "up and coming THING" right now, and you can't get on board with that trend any sooner than today.

Best of luck no matter which choice you make. It will be a tough way to make a living and it will probably be several years before you make a profit, even if everything goes right, but - man-oh-man! - the feeling of accomplishment if you can make it work will be worth all of the hardship you go through to make it happen.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, just after reading through most of the rules yesterday, I don't think I'm going to do dairy... I wouldn't be interested in making cheese, because I actually don't like the stuff LOL.. Just too many rules to abide by etc... I'm going to be visiting some farms near by after Thanksgiving, but I think I'll pass on the dairy side of things... I'm going to look into the meat market here in WA, but that will need to be a separate herd... LOL. Thanks all for your input..


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sure. We don't like to crush enthusiasm but a dairy is a tough way to go.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> Sure. We don't like to crush enthusiasm but a dairy is a tough way to go.


I don't think I got even half way through reading that download and I was saying "no way". You brought up a very good point with time, I haven't been away since I got my goats 3 years ago, and a dairy would make it 10 times worse... I'm glad you all were honest


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Meat goats seem to sell well. You may find a way to wrap "a little" dairy into your farm enterprise, but I think you'll sleep better with _any_ business that doesn't require $50k+++ and a bunch of regulators poking around before you can open your doors. I'm considering dairy, too, but it won't even be an option without blessings from the water rights and septic regulators!

But, I swear meat goats sell themselves. People ALWAYS ask me if I sell goats to eat!


----------



## Humboldtminigoats (Nov 16, 2014)

I think your idea is great you have the most expensive part of your plan which is your property. You need a good business plan and you should take some time and hit up farmers markets little organic stores and talk with those folks. I live in humboldt county weed country at it's finest and there are people who are making a living off these dope growers wanting the cage free eggs and goat meat milk cheese you name it. I built a multi million dollar goat milking facility for a company called cypress grove and they make just cheese!! So go find your market targets first then build your business around that. Every place is different there's always a place for you if you look and try hard enough! Best of wishes jarred


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, I'm going to scale down my dairy herd... I have pre sold my kinder girls to a good home, they will be leaving in January some time after the kids are weaned. Then I'll be working on selling the kids, and my bucks... I am contemplating kinders again for their dual purpose milk/meat so then I can sell the meat. They are smaller, and the ones I have now are really much smaller than some that I have seen. Or just have my obers for milk and get boars for meat... I'm kinda leaning on the kinders actually since they would be easier to handle... Just thinking out loud LOL... I will be making soaps here in about a week, so there is another avenue that I could use the milk to sell soaps and lotions...


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> Or just have my obers for milk and get boars for meat... I'm kinda leaning on the kinders actually since they would be easier to handle...


I looked at Soay sheep and meat goats, and, in my area at least, the butchering costs don't pencil out well for smaller animals. For ex., my local butcher charges $50 kill fee per animal. It's the same price whether you get 25 lbs of meat or 100, and then there's additional costs to process into meat cuts.

If the buyer does their own slaughter, if they aren't skilled, they'll terrify the goat and taint the meat (they'll think _you_ sold them tough meat). If you have any feeling for the goats, it may be difficult to send them to a terrifying amateur slaughter. (And I see sooo many ads that tell buyers they can't butcher at the farm; I'm guessing a lot of buyers want to shoot and cut right at pickup.)

Boers yield more lbs. per kill fee than kinders do, making the meat less expensive/lb. after all costs and yield are tallied.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

harleybarley said:


> I looked at Soay sheep and meat goats, and, in my area at least, the butchering costs don't pencil out well for smaller animals. For ex., my local butcher charges $50 kill fee per animal. It's the same price whether you get 25 lbs of meat or 100, and then there's additional costs to process into meat cuts.
> 
> If the buyer does their own slaughter, if they aren't skilled, they'll terrify the goat and taint the meat (they'll think _you_ sold them tough meat). If you have any feeling for the goats, it may be difficult to send them to a terrifying amateur slaughter. (And I see sooo many ads that tell buyers they can't butcher at the farm; I'm guessing a lot of buyers want to shoot and cut right at pickup.)
> 
> Boers yield more lbs. per kill fee than kinders do, making the meat less expensive/lb. after all costs and yield are tallied.


You are correct on that, however it's just me handling them, so that's why I think kinders will be my better bet for handling purposes... I'm also factoring that in as well. I would most likely sell live, and go that route..., but then again looking at just one Mexican store that sells goat meat $5.00 a lb and people are buying it, at least that's what we think he said LOL.


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> ...one Mexican store that sells goat meat $5.00 a lb and people are buying it, at least that's what we think he said LOL.


Everything is $5/lb. anymore!

Best of luck in your new endeavor!


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

harleybarley said:


> Everything is $5/lb. anymore!
> 
> Best of luck in your new endeavor!


True!!


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Greybird said:


> More bad news: Even Walmart sells goat milk now, as well as goat cheese, and a large percentage of people use Walmart's prices as a basis for comparison.


Have you ever tasted that milk? I'm pretty sure they bathe the bucks in the milk tank....seriously, it's nasty!! That stuff is the reason so many people think goat milk is disgusting.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Have you ever tasted that milk? I'm pretty sure they bathe the bucks in the milk tank....seriously, it's nasty!! That stuff is the reason so many people think goat milk is disgusting.


I have, it's nasty.. It has an very strange aftertaste.


----------



## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm starting a raw goat milk dairy. Here in ny state I have to be licensed by the state and inspectors come randomly to check stuff. Here we don't HAVE to have a parlor. We can have a tie stall barn where we milk but we have to have a very precise milk room with a door to close it off from the rest of the barn. I'm not going to do all the fancy bulk tanks and piping. I'm going to use an electric portable two goat milker and 5 gallon storage tanks, an old refrigerator and big sinks for cleaning/sanitizing. I already had concrete poured in the holding pen for my does and the tie stall barn which was a requirement. The milk room will be the most expensive but when I'm done I may be 10,000 less in my bank account but that ain't bad. Around me I have a lot of NYC, Boston, and Maryland second home owners that come up weekends and they have loads of money and many are into the healthy/raw food movement. Just depends the area your in if there is a market.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

There is a HUGE market here, but I just don't think it's feasible with it just being me doing it... My family and friends have great ideas, but I don't get help really with anything... I'm not really wanting inspectors at my place weekly or monthly.... That just doesn't sound appealing to me.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

A lady I know in Shelton used to have a raw dairy, her milk is what got me into goats, but she shut down because she never turned a profit. Just not feasible on a small scale.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> A lady I know in Shelton used to have a raw dairy, her milk is what got me into goats, but she shut down because she never turned a profit. Just not feasible on a small scale.


Yeah, that what I came up with too... I can just see myself going around in circles... LOL..


----------



## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

In oklahoma most that got on board a few years back with grade A goat Dairys have now sold out and got a job in town to pay off their huge loans that it took to get certified. 

I'm just saying, go easy on ambitions if the banks money is involved.


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

You know how you make a small fortune with goats?... You start off with a LARGE fortune... 

It is possible to make money on goats but its difficult. And there is no easy money in goats for the average person.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> You know how you make a small fortune with goats?... You start off with a LARGE fortune...
> 
> It is possible to make money on goats but its difficult. And there is no easy money in goats for the average person.


So true Dave, so true!! I'm actually downsizing considerably since I started this thread. More than likely I'll be going to school in January, so I need to concentrate on other things..

Did you ever get your Grade A dairy license? I know you were working towards it....


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

This year with the number of kids that'll hit the ground, I'm hoping I can break even and at least have the goats pay for themselves. HOPING, not expecting!!


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm actually most likely going to break even this year, but I'm also selling most of my herd too;-)


----------

