# I need to make some decisions



## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

We have a heard of six goats.
We got our first goats in Oct 2016 and originally got them as pets/milkers

1 pure bred Nigerian dwarf buck. 
1 Nigerian dwarf/Lamancha(mini lamancha)weather
2 Mini lamancha does
2 Mini lamancha doelings that are only 3 months old

Were spending a lot of money to feed them hay around $600-$700 per year 
@$7 per bale I believe. 
We are not making any money at all.
Were going backwards. 

Because our buck is not CAE/Jones tested nobody wants his stud services.
We have a hard time selling the baby goats(kids)
We didn't get any milk this year because we had a baby and both work full time jobs.
So we didn't have time to milk our only doe the kidded.
Our other doe resisted the buck and didn't get pregnant. 
Not that I cared that much that doe is a horrible mother. 

We don't eat them or sell them for meat.
But I wonder if we should change the course. Make a big leap.
Sell off all of our heard at auction and start out fresh with Boer goats.
We could always find buyers for meat and heck maybe break even on hay cost. 

It sucks we have become attached to our goats. 
I just don't want to keep losing money.
Ugh..


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

First, simply test your buck for CAE etc. it’s a blood test, very easy and should be done anyway.

You may want to run with your nigi buck..... that sound like a good opportunity. Sell a few lamanchas and replace with ND does.

If you breed purebred Nigerians, you will find homes for them easier.

The milk is a good moneymaker. Cheese, soap, etc. it’s work but it’s money.

Buying round bales may help you with cost.

Do you have pasture?


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

That sucks. I am pretty much in the exact same shoes as you. I feed hay about 7-8 months a year. I also get vet care(I cut that out a few months ago aside from fecals, and emergencies) I currently have 9 adult does, 2 bucks, 1 wether, 4 doelings, a half buck, and 4 sheep. So 21 animals in total. I have used about $3000 this year(and that probably a bit low) and only made back about $600, maybe $800, so nowhere close to even breaking even!

Personally, I don't think in your situation the meat route is the best route(I'm not you though, it's your decision you know your situation much better than me!) Boers eat more, and are sometimes more, sometimes less, hardy than some Nigerians. You will be able to sell them for more, and you can also butcher them yourself and sell the meat(if you get a permit of course) but my Boers right now eat about 3x as much as my Nigerians. You would also probably need to buy grain(everyone has different view on this. A lot of people grain their market wethers, and meat wethers though) which adds another $16+ per week or $64 per month depending on how many you are feeding.

I agree with @NigerianDwarfOwner707 test your buck. It's easy, and cheap, and after you can offer stud service and be able to sell kids quicker if you can provide goats that come from a clean herd. It's ultimately worth it. I also agree with booting some, if not all, Lamanchas, and getting purebred and/or registered Nigerian Dwarf Goats. The eat much less than boers, and F1(if thats what you have) mini manchas. Plus, a huge bonus to Nigerians is the fact they tend to have litters of kids. Usually 3-4 kids. They are hardy and can usually raise them, themselves. They make great pets, companion animals, show animals, milkers, and weed eaters, so usually they go MUCH quicker than mixes.

I am part of a facebook group that Is used to rehome goats, and there were several Mini-Mancha breeders who posted to figure out what the deal was, with people not wanting manchas. Most people said they would either much rather get a full sized doe to milk, would rather have a purebred Nigieran to milk/have as a pet, or they just aren't all that attractive. I used to have 4 adult mancha does but since they had such a hard time selling, I cut all but one. So, mini manchas aren't that hot in the market. At least not here.

I would also try and breed for early in the year. That can be hard, just due to natural heat cycles, and also because of weather. But they usually sell for more, and quicker. Usually march-july is when most goats kid. That means there is more goats and one person wants them to go quickly so they lower the price, and another does the same, and so on. Early in the year(Dec-Mid March) there is much less being born, so it is pretty easy to rehome them for a good price.

Goats seem to be getting cheaper, and cheaper. Unfortunately, the hay doesn't change prices with the goats. I thought of just dispersing my whole herd several times this year. Instead, I am just trying to get what buyers want, instead of what I like/want. Hopefully, I'll cut even and maybe make some extra. Save up, and probably start over with a herd of quality dairy goats.

Speaking of dairy...MILK! Boer do milk(some of them quite well) but most you purchase won't appreciate it and its usually for not as long. Nigerians can produce a good amount, and I've had a few milk 9+ months. I can milk by hand easily, but if you want a quicker, easier option I would make, or buy, a machine to milk them. Milk around here sells for minimum $2 a gallon. That's what I sell it for, and it goes quick, cause goat milk is a universal milk. I don't sell it for human consumption anymore, but if you do get a permit, you could easily sell it for $5 a gallon. Selling for pet consumption though, I get 2gal a day that I can spare when most my does are in milk. That's $4 per day, or an extra $116 per month. If they milk for 8 months that's an extra $928 per year. You could also make soap and im sure it sells pretty well too.

Anyways, I think I've rambled on long enough! I'll try and correct spelling and grammar later.

Edited to add
Totally forgot about the milking. As some others have said, if milking is an issue I would go with meat/dual purpose breed. Some really good choices would be, Myotonics. They are awesome. A lot of appeal to people as pets. They are hardy, I used to say mine got fat on air! They are easy on fences and don't need to be milked(most of the time) Another choice would be Kikos. They are great as they usually don't need much care other than the basics. They are usually great parents, but kids do need to be tamed down to go as "pets" if that's the only thing you are comfortable with selling them for. Pygmy goats are also great. Hardy, don't need to be milked. A bit less flashy, but usually sell well as pets. And Boers. Kinda what I was saying before though, they can either be really good, or really bad for you! If you get pasture raised boers and put then on a dry lot, they might be horrible, eat a LOT or not eat enough and have bad conception rates. If you can find dry lot raised does(im assuming you dry lot) then they could be good. I would get either 2 good does, and a buck. Or I would get 3 good does and either AI or use a stud. You would probably use less to feed them, and if you get some good goats, they will be able to make you money back. I would go with whatever is unique or one of the most expensive goats in you area. Get a few good stock and start from there. Easy to manage, and you should be able to at least break even. Angoras are also another choice if you can even find some in your area.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would suggest really researching what sells in your area. Also find out how people are selling. Just because meat goats sell well, doesn't mean they will sell well for you 

For example. I first got into registered Nigerians. I bought from well known herds. I didn't show. I had a harder time selling the kids because my goats weren't being shown. It didn't matter that I had well known bloodlines or even that all my goats were tested for everything. People wanted to see my goats winning in the show ring. So there is more to selling goats than just owning the right breed or testing.


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## bisonviewfarm (Apr 2, 2015)

I had to make this same choice last year. Check every sale site for your area and see what's going for decent prices and doesn't seem to be sitting for long.I had registered Nigerians disease tested and from well known lines but it just didn't sell. The market here is just to saturated with cheap non registered stock and dairy doesn't sell either. Good milkers disease tested and I'd be lucky to get a $100. We switched to Boer & Boer crosses(which I also milk pretty impressed with how well they do) I made enough to cover my hay and yearly costs plus a little emergency money from 9 kids. We usually have 6-8 adult goats. And I would have had no problem selling quite a few more kids if I'd had them.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

SandyNubians has some very good thoughts! Really though only you can decide. I personally wouldn’t jump and sudden changes right now. You are 3 years in, gosh if I took out my expenses and profits from my 3rd year it would probably shock a lot of people! To this day my husband does not know the numbers from my first probably 4 years. It took a LOT of changing things around and trying something new to get to the point I was breaking even, small profit. 
Feed is the biggest money eater. I’m not sure how where you buy your hay but usually it’s cheaper if you skip the feed store and go direct to the farmer. Also bulk. Don’t look just in your area. Look all around. For me it would be cheaper if I bought hay AND had it shipped from 6 hours away then buy local. That is for a truck and trailer load and I get that not everyone can store that much hay but you could go in with someone or even sell what you don’t need, maybe make a little $ on the side  
Also advertise the heck out of your animals! A lot of people don’t want to chance buying from the new guy :/ I went threw this too. Although I don’t have a big name I’m getting it out there.
But these are things that you will run into no matter the breed.
Now I myself do raise boers. One of the things I like is the fact the one market I can absolutely depend on is the meat market. Being able to drop kids I can’t sell at the sale yard and still fairly good money is nice. There is also different markets. Breeding stock, just meat, market wethers, weed eaters, pets is usually out though and so is milk. Although for me not having to milk is a good thing lol I sometimes think about trying my hand at a herd of dairy but then I realize I don’t have time to milk them.
If you do decide you really want to try boers but are kinda still on the fence, get a few and try them. I seriously swear by “you never know unless you try”. Just make sure you have GOOD fences. You don’t want those bucks getting in with your nigi girls.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Im not sure of your location. I have Boers, spanish, myotonics, ans savannas coming soon. I am into meat goats. Im sure Dairy is just like our dilemmas. I contacted FHA teachers and asked..what are you showing? What are your ideas about my breed of goats? They stay on top of breeds & quality. Also..contact any universitys with agriculture studies. Both of these have helped me look into several ways to move kids, and what time of year they are needed . 
I hope this helps you.


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## Chelsey (Dec 7, 2018)

Holy crap! I wish I was only paying $7 a bale!! I just bought some hay from my local feed store cause my storage is running low and it’s time to switch to a high quality alfalfa grass mix. $18 a bale. I understand needing to switch things around though. I had standard sized dairy does last year, this year is all minis. They eat so much less!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Congratulations on your baby.
But honestly, if a single baby will stop you from milking a single doe, then the dairy route will probably never be right for you, and meat may well be a good thing to consider. There are many different meat breeds, and all of them have something to offer. Boers aren't the only thing going. Kikos became a favourite of mine, simply because of how I raised goats fit well with that breed's personality traits.

If you aren't showing, or selling to show people, then a dairy/meat cross doe consistently raised market weight kids faster for me than my purebred Boer does did. More milk than the Boers, and richer milk than purebred dairy girls, equaled fast growing meaty kids. So consider that idea.

Do get your herd tested. It'll make it easier to sell from your herd. It'll also make it easier to sell your herd, if that's the route you choose.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

bigz48877 said:


> originally got them as *pets*/milkers
> 
> *We don't eat them or sell them for meat*.
> Sell off all of our heard *at auction* and start out fresh with Boer goats.
> ...


I don't get this together. You want pets, you get pets, you like them, you don't eat them or sell them for meat - and then you think of selling them to God knows what fates?

I suggest you butcher them at home, if it is legal to sell the meat. Also prepare the skins for sale. And milk them and make cheese. Always try to refine (is that the right word?) yourself if you want to earn money!


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 3, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> I don't get this together. You want pets, you get pets, you like them, you don't eat them or sell them for meat - and then you think of selling them to God knows what fates?


:up:


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

Wow, that is a lot for hay!! Hay is expensive around here right now too. But expensive as in like $4 a bale, whereas before it would be more around the $2 range. But I'm also in a rural place, so that could make a difference.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

So how much in a bale? I am used to pay hay per kg. (I guess you use some non-understandible weight unit over there ...)


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> So how much in a bale? I am used to pay hay per kg. (I guess you use some non-understandible weight unit over there ...)


A square bale should weigh about 22 K


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

Treva Brodt said:


> A square bale should weigh about 22 kilos


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

I’ve accepted that goats are my hobby. Dave and I are retired so it’s the one thing in our lives that get us out of the house and moving. He thought we should make money selling kids because he saw what some people were getting for kids at the large swap meets. Folks will pay $250 - 300 for a kid. Two years later what I see when someone at a swap meet is someone that is willing to set up a tent or booth and bring enough food and supplies for themselves and their livestock. Rent space and camp for three days without a break. I see animals weakened by stress and oppressive heat. I see people buying an adorable (lone) kid without any idea how much more they need than just the backyard grass and a water bowl. No way can I be so heartless and inhuman. I’ve sold a few to people I know that have the means to take care of them. Mostly I’m going out backwards as far as income. My goats inhabit a little cedar grove with some browsables that keeps them busy but doesn’t meet their nutritional needs so I buy hay and feed. A healthy pet quality goat is worth about $50 around here. My solution is more responsible breeding. I might try my hand at milking in the future to make soap. My daughter sells Scentsy so I have access to some great smelling essential oils at cost and I love the goats milk soap I’ve tried in the past. I just can’t eat mine, they’re ruined as livestock. I’m just fortunate enough at this time in my life to not worry that they aren’t making money. What they have done for me is get me a tax exempt status that came in handy when Dave treated himself to the new John Deere we’ll use for maintaining our lane and doing the heavy lifting.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I can understand your frustration. I recommend researching what sells well in your area and decide which direction you want to take. Sadly, with your current herd, and the pet factor, it doesn't sound like you'll recoup your spending. Unless your buck is highly desirable for stud service, I don't even know if testing him and studding him out would help the deficit? 

I don't know what area you are in, but here in KY Boer goats sell really well. The biggest thing is when you go to shop for meat goats or registered stock - you need to educate yourself on what to look for and buy the best you can afford within your budget. Ideally, you would want to buy wide framed goats with good bone because well... if you don't have that, what will the meat/muscle grow on? In order to get good growth you have to have the foundation. 
Ideal market weight is 40-80lbs, so you want fast growing, meaty kids that you can get to market in 3-4 months vs. either having to grow them out for several months, or getting to market and them falling into a lower class. I can't get our current market reports to load, but I know here they have different classes, I think they are listed A-B and maybe C? Class A will bring more per lb than Class B, and I may be wrong, but I think it's 40-60lbs. that brings more per lb. than 60-80lbs. 
Creep feeding growing kids is essential, you may not get good growth on hay/grass alone. 

We started out years ago with a handful of commercial Boer X does - we wanted to have goats for our kids and raise some meat. Well... in nearly 10 years we've only eaten 2 of our wethers. However, we've sold some random boys at auction though it's been years ago as I sell most everything on Craigslist or facebook (though FB is getting harder/trickier). 
My kids got into 4-H in 2011, and started out showing Registered Percentage Boer goats, and market wether's. We sold a lot of the extra boys to 4-H kids looking for affordable projects. I typically sold them for $10 more than current market prices. 
We now have a Fullblood, registered herd with the exception of 1 % doe. My kids love showing registered stock at the county fairs, and we go to a random ABGA show - although we don't have big, fancy ABGA type show goats, especially with the styles changing - ours are more old style genetics.
With our herd, my kids pick who they want to show, and we register those kids. Extra kids are sold with application to register - so the buyer is responsible for sending in and paying registration fees. We just make sure they are tattooed or if buyer is not interested in papers then we tag them - some states require a tag no matter what, but here we can do just a tattoo for registered stock.

Have you considered using Round bales of hay instead of square bales? There is no way we could do square bales as we don't have storage and it would be crazy expensive. We buy round bales from a cattle farm down the road - the goats love the hay, the price is very reasonable, they deliver the round bale - dropping it in our driveway and we roll it back to where we store it (it's covered with a cattle panel and tarp and tarp on front/back to protect it. We ration it out and use it for bedding. We also use square bales of alfalfa hay for pregnant/nursing does or goats being shown, but we get a really good deal on it. We only have 2 acres, so pasture is very limited especially this time of year.  So we have to supplement our herd for sure. We currently have 9 adult Boer does, 2 young does and 2 bucks. This is the biggest our herd has ever been coming into the winter. We really need to sell a couple, but darn it, we're so attached  Even the bratty bucks who are a little over a year old - twin bucks. Why do we need twin bucks? lol My kids bought them in Feb, we drove nearly 5 hours to get them, figured we'd decide on which one to keep and sell the other. Nope, kids decided to keep and show them both and use both for breeding lol! Sadly we really do need to make a hard decision after we breed the last 3 does, or not... lol.

Anyway, I hope this helps a little? If you have any questions, definitely ask. It's hard selling those 'meat' kids for sure, but overall you just have to prepare yourself with the knowledge that is their purpose, and give them the best life you can offer them. It's okay to cry and feel bad! I do every time I sell a wether. But I know they get the best life we can give them while they are here.


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

HoosierShadow, how are you rolling the round bales to your lot? I would like to use the round bales but we don’t have any way to handle them. So far that’s been my husband’s argument. I’ve seen how much they waste as well. Do you have a hay ring? Seems like my friend just wrapped a piece of fence around his round bales but his goats climb on top which leads to a lot of pooping and you know the rest.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Treva Brodt said:


> HoosierShadow, how are you rolling the round bales to your lot? I would like to use the round bales but we don't have any way to handle them. So far that's been my husband's argument. I've seen how much they waste as well. Do you have a hay ring? Seems like my friend just wrapped a piece of fence around his round bales but his goats climb on top which leads to a lot of pooping and you know the rest.


We roll it from the driveway to the front of the barn, it's not far though probably around 30'. 
We don't put it in with the goats as you said they can be wasteful and we use it for different areas - doe shelter, barn and buck shelter. 
This is an old picture, but you can see on the right where the wheel barrow is - that's where we store it.









We have a hay feeder in that cattle panel shelter I think the hay feeder is 4' or 6' long









We're actually getting ready to tear down the cattle panel shelter - the weather has been hard on it, but mostly I need a different kind of setup. Otherwise we'd just fix the shelter as it's worked great. 
We used to keep a round bale in the middle in this shelter, we put it on a pallet or 2 and then wrapped a cattle panel around it. Waste wasn't too bad, but it's not ideal for horned goats. 
If you could find a utility type of panel to wrap around it - with the small squares that would probably work really well, then you'd just have to tighten the panel as they eat into it. 
As it is, we fill the feeders daily in the cold months, and as needed in the summer since they can browse/graze.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> Congratulations on your baby.
> But honestly, if a single baby will stop you from milking a single doe, then the dairy route will probably never be right for you, and meat may well be a good thing to consider. There are many different meat breeds, and all of them have something to offer. Boers aren't the only thing going. Kikos became a favourite of mine, simply because of how I raised goats fit well with that breed's personality traits.
> 
> If you aren't showing, or selling to show people, then a dairy/meat cross doe consistently raised market weight kids faster for me than my purebred Boer does did. More milk than the Boers, and richer milk than purebred dairy girls, equaled fast growing meaty kids. So consider that idea.
> ...


Yes I under estimated how much time a baby consumes.
I'm 36 my wifes 34 and were both first time parents plus we both work full time jobs. 
In addition my wife works every Saturday and Sunday so I'm stuck with our baby every weekend and no sitter.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I meant no criticism. It was an honest assessment that the dairy isn't the path for you. Dairy takes TIME!!!!


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> I meant no criticism. It was an honest assessment that the dairy isn't the path for you. Dairy takes TIME!!!!


I agree. Dairy is not for us right now.
Maybe when our baby gets a little older we could get back into milking 3-4 years from now. 
I have considered getting out of goats completely until my boy gets to around 4 years old and out of diapers.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

bigz48877 said:


> Maybe when our baby gets a little older.


IF ... If you do not have another baby by then ... The second baby is of course more of a routine, but still takes up much of your time and attention. As was said: Congratulations!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Having a baby definitely makes it tough, but if you keep some goats, your little one will grow up with them  We got our first goats when my youngest of 3 was 2 1/2 years old, and the bond between them has been awesome. She is 13 now, has shown in 4-H since she was 5.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:up:


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Yes, 3-5 years has been called "the best goat cuddling age"!


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> First, simply test your buck for CAE etc. it's a blood test, very easy and should be done anyway.
> 
> You may want to run with your nigi buck..... that sound like a good opportunity. Sell a few lamanchas and replace with ND does.
> 
> ...


I have been looking into getting our pure bred Nigerian dwarf buck Dusty blood tested for CAE, CL and Jhones. 
Our vet charges $85 for the 1st goat and $70 for each additional goat.
We take the goats to him.
Dusty is very stinky and skittish. 
He runs from us.
Dusty is housed with his son Ancho a Nigerian/Lamancha cross(mini lamancha)wether.
Could we take Ancho in to be blood tested and if Ancho comes up negative then Dusty the buck should be negative too right?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

No. That isn't right. Your older buck will have had more time for the diseases to be triggered and develop.

If you want to use him for breeding other people's animals, you are going to have to handle him. And people aren't going to care if a different animal is negative, they are going to care about the one in contact with their herd.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> No. That isn't right. Your older buck will have had more time for the diseases to be triggered and develop.
> 
> If you want to use him for breeding other people's animals, you are going to have to handle him. And people aren't going to care if a different animal is negative, they are going to care about the one in contact with their herd.


Ok thanks..
Oh boy I don't know how I'm going to get him to the vet...
I need to figure it out


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Are you using a trailer to take them to the vet? If so back the trailer up to their gate and feed them in the trailer or try and con him in with some grain. 
Another option is drawing blood honestly isn’t that hard. There’s some good YouTube videos. Or you can also see if there is a breeder around you that can draw it for you. But seriously It’s not hard to do it yourself. I know your probably thinking “your nuts!” I thought the same thing when it was suggested to me but when I finally went out and just learned how to do it I laughed at myself on how easy it was and why I took so long to figure it out.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Truck.
I don't know. 
We are thinking about selling off all of our goats.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Sold our Nigerian dwarf buck Dusty today.
5 more goats to go..


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Hugs


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## Honey21 (Jan 26, 2014)

Chelsey said:


> Holy crap! I wish I was only paying $7 a bale!! I just bought some hay from my local feed store cause my storage is running low and it's time to switch to a high quality alfalfa grass mix. $18 a bale. I understand needing to switch things around though. I had standard sized dairy does last year, this year is all minis. They eat so much less!


I just got good quality round bale for 50$


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

We sold the twin doelings last Sunday. 
We are down to 3 goats.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

not much help here I bought mine as pets so i accept the "losses". Good luck though.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

It’s tough having a baby, much less trying to milk with a tiny little demanding human needing constant attention. We got our first goats when our oldest kid was 1.5 and I was due with our youngest 2 months later. They were pets and cute weed eaters. We’ve made a lot of changes, moved across the country with our pet goats, and have now transitioned to all registered NDs with plans to milk and eventually show. 

Things are so much easier human kid wise now that they’re 3.5 and 5 yrs old. They can go to the barn with us and entertain themselves while we do chores. They “help” clean the stalls and love to brush the does (not allowed in with the bucks, ever). They each have their own doeling that they have claimed. My kids are very helpful in getting the goat kids used to human kids, which makes them easier to sell. 

It sounds like you’re making the correct choice for your family at this time. Maybe in a couple of years you can get back into it. We love the NDs as their size makes them easy to handle, easy on the property, and you can have more with less. As we’ve sold off our original (unregistered) stock we’ve focused on only purchasing friendly, easy to handle goats from tested herds. Good luck with your journey!


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