# Total Newbie... so many questions and fears!



## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

So first of all, I am really worried about posting here because truly I feel quite clueless and I fear the replies I might get. I've been on other forums (not about goats) and they can get pretty rude and unkind sometimes. But, I am honestly concerned about our very pregnant goats and really would like some help. I believe we have one that is in early labor now and am watching her on my phone monitor as I type on my computer. I decided I needed to start a thread here so I would have the history here and could quickly ask questions as needed. I have lots of questions and some of them will probably be better to post on a different group. I feel really behind the mark and right now I need help knowing what's most important in the here and now for our 2 mama goats that are about to kid. 

So, here's the history... Both my husband (Russ) and I grew up on farms, his folks raising hogs, mine cattle. My husband is now a mechanic but really enjoys animals as do our children. Our oldest boy who is 13 LOVES animals and has rabbits, chickens, quail, and 2 dogs. 

We live in western Nebraska and have been living at this location for about 4 years. We rent a nice place in the country with quite a bit of space and we have often talked of getting some goats to help control a large weed patch that my husband has tried to turn into a clover patch for his honey bees. 

Finally in Sept, Russ bought 3 Boer goats. They were sold as being exposed to a buck. They looked pregnant and have continued to grow and soon it was very obvious they were pregnant. He also bought 2 skinny goats that he assumed just needed some good food. Lesson learned... DO NOT BUY SKINNY GOATS!! After trying to treat them ourselves and a trip to the vet, they both died. 

A little later we bought a little nigerian dwarf for our younger boy, as a pet, since our oldest generally claims most all animals as his, including the new Boer goats. The lady we bought the little goat from is my friend and she has had goats for a couple years so we've been leaning on her for help with our goats. 

Animals aren't exactly my thing but I care about every living thing so I care about them. My husband isn't a techy person and isn't a reader or researcher. He has read some about goats but not a lot. A couple days ago, I decided to start reading up a bit on goats and came across this forum. I haven't looked much further cuz I love the variety of ideas and ways to do things plus they offer so much REAL help! But, my head began to hang fairly quickly as i fear we have totally failed our goats. 

I hate to admit my stupidity and don't want to make my husband look bad. But I am amazed at all the stuff I've read about here and I don't have a clue what some terms etc even mean. I was reading on the thread that talks all about what you all do during your goats pregnancy, during her labor, and afterwards etc. It seems there's various shots of this and that. And numerous types of feed and nutrients. And food taken away for a certain time before birth so babies don't get too big. And even something called calcium deficiency that can hinder labor. And now I'm very concerned that we aren't properly taking care of our goats. 

Since my oldest son and husband have been caring for them, (and they are both sleeping now) I can't give a lot of details but will tell what I know. After we got them, we did deworm them. I believe it was a shot of something the vet recommended. That was in Oct. I don't know what my husband thinks but I assumed you dewormed goats once or twice a year. I know... assuming isn't a good idea. We should've researched this sooner cuz it seems like maybe we're supposed to deworm more often than that. I think I read some of you do twice a month. And for sure after they have babies. Would any of you be willing to explain to me when to deworm, how often, and why? 

As far as I know, no other shots have been given to our goats. What's the most important they should have right now? Our nearest farm store and vet is about 30 miles away but one of us can go tomorrow and get what we need. 

We've been feeding pellets and hay. Also some kind of mineral stuff but they basically don't touch it. And we have a salt block out but they don't tough that either. They love the pellets and eat lots of hay. I can't tell you what kind or how much pellets but will ask hubby tomorrow. It's what a lady that owns goats and works at the farm store recommended. But we did not know anything about taking away pellets toward the end of pregnancy so babies wouldn't get too big. To be honest we thought these goats would kid a month or 2 ago. They just keep growing and growing!! 

Russ did look up labor signs and figured out how to check ligaments and watch for other signs. A few weeks ago, the favorite goat definitely showed signs of going into labor. One day I thought I saw her have a few contractions but then they quit. About a day and half later, she was definitely having contractions in the night and at 4am my husband went out and sat with her in the little shed he built them. An hour later I woke the boys up to go watch as we thought she would have them any minute. I now know it wasn't wise to compare her labor to mine with my children. I had VERY long labors and pushed for hours with mine. My husband had read that very rarely do you need to intervene with goats having kids. 

But after a couple hours of what appeared like her pushing, we called my friend who has goats and she came over. The goat was totally fine still walking around happily eating hay. My friend checked the goat and could feel the babies but said they were a tangle of legs. After awhile of just pushing and no progressing, she called her friend who's had goats longer than her and she too came out. She took one look and said to call the vet. She feared there was a dead kid in there due to a smell. It was Sunday morning and luckily we got a hold of the vet and she said to bring the goat in. By this point she was very wore out but still walked to the trailer. 

The vet pulled the kids (there were 2) and they were both dead. She had a hard time pulling them as yes they were tangled up and neither had been able to move into the birth canal. She thought they'd actually maybe been dead a day or 2. The vet didn't really give any instruction of what to do for our mama so we took her home and gave her a penicillin shot and some nutri-drench. She was up and walking around some but didn't look too good. Two days later, our boy came in crying and said "Bossy died!" He was heartbroken! It always breaks my heart too when my children's animals die. 

So, now we are VERY worried about our other goats. What should've or could've we done different with our first goat? What should we do different this time?


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

I guess my post was too long so I'll have to split it up... 

Goat number 2... Her name is "Little Goat" as she is the smallest of the 3 and Russ assumes she hasn't kidded before. I'm not sure why he thinks that. Maybe they said that when he bought her or maybe her pregnant belly doesn't hang like the others. Sadly she has very, very poor hooves. We didn't see that though till after we brought her home. It appears whoever owned her, never cared for them. They were turned inward and outward and all over. My friend came and trimmed them some and said she'd come back again and trim some more. But hasn't yet. I actually hardly ever go out and look closely at the goats but today I did to check on them and I was astounded at how bad her hooves looked. I will ask my friend to come over as soon as she gets home from vacation. We've offered to pay her to help us out with these goats but she just loves animals and says she can't get enough of them so helps us for free. 

When my friend first came out to trim her hooves she took one look at her udder and questioned that she could nurse a baby. We hadn't even noticed what her udder looked like. But indeed there's 2 small teats on each side instead of 1 large one on each side. I suppose maybe this is why she got sold. We have a bottle that we used with the nigerian dwarf and I figured we'd use that if her babies can't nurse on her. Our friend told us to just feed whole cows milk to the nigerean dwarf so I figured we'd do the same with these babies. But after reading here last night, I think maybe I should get some colostrum. What kind? Can I get it at the farm store or do I have to from the vet?

So, what are we going to do when "Little Goat" kids? Well, we have an aspirator, towels, warm little goat shed with heater and heat light in it and fresh hay is added twice a day. And I plan to give mama some warm molasses water after she has the baby or babies. I don't know how much but I'm gonna read up on that. I read about putting the naval in iodine and I know hubby just bought some of that. So do you just pour a little on? Or have a little bowl with some in it to dip it in? I read that some have scissors to cut the cord. Is it common to have to cut the cord? I wonder how to sterilize my scissors? I hate to again use the word "assume" but I just assumed it broke on its own cuz my dad never cut calves cords. 

So, we feel really nervous! It seems that Little Goat's ligaments started getting soft several days ago. Her udder is not extremely tight but it's pretty good sized. This morning she started pawing the ground some, and has been restless all day. Russ also saw just a tiny bit of clear goo under her tail but there's been nothing more all day. She's totally dry under her tail. She still walking around, eating and drinking. She's also been licking her sides some today. I saw her hunch up a few times around 10pm but didn't know if it was a contraction or just that she was repositioning. I haven't seen her do it since. It's now 3am. Yes, I'm very worried about her and can't sleep. I just know I'll feel better after I ask you'll for help. 

I read here that there is sometimes amber goo but our other goat never had that. Maybe it's cuz her babies never moved into the birth canal? 

What about calcium deficiency? I guess another thing I need to research. 

I am just so worried that what if this goat's babies get stuck also? What if they die and what if she dies? That fear is really hanging over my husband and since I started reading up on here, I offered that I'd be the night watch tonight. He's been checking on her every 2 hours in the night for over a week. Tonight when he shut them up in their little shed (It's 18 degrees here), he said he could tell her manner had changed and she was more subdued.

Since Russ is so concerned he'll do the wrong things again (I've told him I don't believe it's his fault) and lose babies and mama, I told I'd be responsible with this goat. But I'm really pretty nervous and know I need some advice. My friend is away on vacation. I have the ladies number that works at the farm store so I can call her too but don't know her personally. 

I know I'm late, but am now quickly trying to learn all I can about goats and babies. 

As for goat #3... She gets called Light Head or Big Goat cuz her brown head is a light color and she has the biggest belly EVER! I can't even find a picture online of a pregnant goat as fat as her! Hubby says her ligaments are softening and her udder is growing too. We will be VERY relieved when this birthing process is behind us!! We desperately hope to get a few healthy kids and no more dead mamas!! 

Little Goat slept mostly while I typed this but is now sitting awake doing nothing. She just ate a little hay and laid back down. But not much else right now. I honestly don't really want to have to do an internal exam but am willing to if I should. We have lube and latex gloves. 

K, now that I've spilled my guts and fears on here, I'm started to get sleepy. I will set my alarm for in 2 hours and check my monitor again. Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Little Goat this afternoon


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Holy smokes I hear your concern and fear, I'm so very sorry you lost so many goats so soon into your goat journey. Kidding is a wonderful and scary time for us all so you're not alone.

Let me try to weed through your post and answer what I can. Most importantly about little goat who you think is in labor. From the picture it looks like she's getting ready. Her udder looks pretty tight and her pooch looks loose. I can see her fishtail teat so I think it would be wise to prepare to bottle feed.

I'm a Nigerian owner so my experience with boers is minimal but they all have the same parts lol


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

1st, watch Blue Cactus Dairy Goats on goat deliveries on you tube so you can see some different goats in labor that'll help you recognize the signs.
Most goat births are problem free, sadly on forums a lot of times you only hear about the problems.
Try to relax a little.
As for vaccines, if you're not sure all your goats have had their CDT's pick some up and give them all 2cc's sub q and then in 21-28 days give a second 2cc's dose then give once a year after. This is the most important one. Once the kids are 6-8 weeks old give them a two dose (2cc's) course also.

If you're worried about colostrum, get the colostrum REPLACER not the supplement to have on hand along with bottles and different type of nipples. If you have to use it make sure baby is at 101* and bottle is at 100-101*.
Don't ever give milk to a baby whose temp is below 101* rectally.
(Non RX- tractor supply/feed store)
Like this:
https://www.jefferspet.com/products...84a69fa2600f000003e0/533884a79fa2600f000003ec

Calcium: get some CMPK to have on hand. Feed alfalfa hay free choice or add in pellets start with a cup twice a day and work up to free choice or work it into your feeding routine.

https://www.durvet.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/CMPK-Gel_300mL_001-1110245-e1520446984419.jpg

Get some selenium vitamin e gel and give momma a 5cc dose and when babies are born put a pea sized dollop on your finger and give it to each kid.

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/selenium-vitamin-e-gel-for-goats

Dipping the cord: yes, dip the whole cord in 7% iodine all the way up to the tummy a couple of times during the first 24 hours of life to prevent joint ill and bacteria from traveling up the cord.

After the kids are born you will need to worm mom because worms thrive in times of stress and Kidding Is stressful. 
Gotta check your post again..hang on more coming


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Here's some great resources for you to explore:

Health management and illness articles. A lot of us use these a lot.

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/articlesMain.html

Boer goat kidding positions and determinations

http://abga.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Kidding-Positions.pdf


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

As far as changing your feeding routine or withholding feed, I wouldn't at this point they're getting ready to kid and produce milk for their kids just make sure there's a lot of quality in their feed. There's not a lot of room left with the kids taking up so much space...so quality is more important than quantity. Make sure they have clean fresh hay and water all the time.

Good minerals is critical to health. They should be fresh and always available. Purina wind rain and storm in the red bag is good or sweetlix meat maker 16:8 is another. (Made for cattle but great for goats)

Oh, don't be in a rush to glove up and check her right now, you won't always see goo but you'll know when she's getting close. If her cervix isn't dialated it could hurt her. 

I hope I've help some. I've hit what's most important I think, I don't want to overwhelm you....

There's a lot of great folks here who are very helpful. We don't judge or put folks down...there's almost always someone online to talk you thru things while you're waiting for a vet too....
You're not alone...hang in there.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Oh thank you sweet, kind people!!! I just watched her awhile again and she's sitting pretty still now. She wiggles her tail a lot though. 

I will read again all that you wrote in a few hours when my brain is more awake and stores are open.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Russ and Martha said:


> Oh thank you sweet, kind people!!! I just watched her awhile again and she's sitting pretty still now. She wiggles her tail a lot though.
> 
> I will read again all that you wrote in a few hours when my brain is more awake and stores are open.


No problem 
Have some coffee and take a deep breath...
Hang in there


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Two more essentials to grab at the feed store if you don't have them already
Probios
Vitamin B Complex injectable and some 3cc syringes and 20g needles


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## MuldrowBeeandGoatFarm (Oct 25, 2019)

I am new, like you, so I have nothing to offer but support!! Hang in their and know we are praying for you! I know this is hard and I know how you feel right now......we bought 20 from an auction and lost 4 to our ignorance and stress......but we are at 100 days of goat owning, holding steady at 17! Listen and do what these wonderful folks say! They have been very good about not being rude to new goat owners from what I have seen! Good luck!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Russ and Martha said:


> mineral stuff


The brand would be nice to know, so we can say if it is a good one or not. https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/excellent-minerals-you-know-how-i-love-me-those-minerals.194612/ This is a great thread to read!



Russ and Martha said:


> But we did not know anything about taking away pellets toward the end of pregnancy so babies wouldn't get too big.


If they are alfalfa pellets, you dont have to worry about anything, but grain is usually given toward the end of the pregnancy to provide some extra protien for the mom to support the kids, and so the kids can grow correctly, but many people dont give grain at all



Russ and Martha said:


> To be honest we thought these goats would kid a month or 2 ago. They just keep growing and growing!!


I get it lol!! Just remember a goats gestation is about 145-150 days!



Russ and Martha said:


> My husband had read that very rarely do you need to intervene with goats having kids.


Thats true! I have read in a book that 95% of goats births are uneventful!



Russ and Martha said:


> y friend checked the goat and could feel the babies but said they were a tangle of legs.


so it is always good to take your does on walks about a good week before thy kid to get them positioned in the right spot for birthing. Your does may not want to get up, but is for their own good! 



Russ and Martha said:


> took her home and gave her a penicillin shot and some nutri-drench.


that was good (thumbup) B complex and LA200 next time to help her clean out. Most likely she died because she never cleaned out all of the placenta and it went toxic



Russ and Martha said:


> Our friend told us to just feed whole cows milk to the nigerean dwarf


Yes, babies need whole cows milk when you bottle feed if you have no access to fresh goats milk



Russ and Martha said:


> But after reading here last night, I think maybe I should get some colostrum. W


Ask your goat friends if they have any frozen colostrum in their freezer. Goat is best,



Russ and Martha said:


> Or have a little bowl with some in it to dip it in?


Yup! I put the iodine in a little tupaware bowl and dip the cords



Russ and Martha said:


> I read that some have scissors to cut the cord. Is it common to have to cut the cord?


I usually tie it really tight about an inch from the top with dental floss, it will fall off by its self eventually



Russ and Martha said:


> This morning she started pawing the ground some, and has been restless all day.


Sounds like she is in Labor!!! Keep a close eye on her, and be sure your goat friends are available, just incase she needs assistance

Good luck! I am hoping for you to have beautiful, healthy, goat kids! :dreams:


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Russ and Martha said:


> Would any of you be willing to explain to me when to deworm, how often, and why?


@happybleats Would explain this so much better than I would! She is into natural deworming, but also knows so much about parasites!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

The only thing you need to know right this second is that when Little Bit begins BIG pushes - that is laying on her side and the back legs go completely stiff from her straining and pushing (she may bellow), kids should be out within 30 minutes from when that pushing begins. If no kids, intervene.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Wow..you have had a tough start..but it will get better. Good job getting a mentor on board to help you. 
As for when to worm and how often and why? 
We don't recommend deworming on schedule but as needed. each goat has their own need. We do de worm every bran new mom within 24 hours of kidding since this a stressful time and worms are opportunistic. Other wise we de worm based on Fecal, condition ( loosing weight, poor coat condition, scours etc) And we check famancha ( lower inner eye lid color) We want to see deep pink to red.)
Kidding tip: Most goats kid within 5 hours of early labor. I had a goat who took every second of 5 hours lol..and others who spit those kids right out..but either case we want to see babies with in 30 minutes after the water breaks..This produces that amber goo many talk about..you see that..you want to see kids soon. I do not intervene as long as I see progress. For many years I had never had to "go in" to help mom. But later years I have assisted many. Read read read. Watch kidding videos. and ask tons of questions. You found a great place to learn here.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh and on her teat..I have seen worse and babies figure it out. Just make sure they are indeed nursing, and getting milk, you may need to help get them going. If they struggle, milk mom and feed them that wonderful colostrum. and keep working on getting them to nurse. In the end if they can not you can leave them with mom and milk her to bottle or feed whole cows milk.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, so much to read.

All great suggestions.

I don't know if it was mentioned.
Did the vet give you/her antibiotics for the mama who had dead kids and bad smell?
Did he flush her out?

Did she drop her afterbirth?

Having dead kids within causes bad toxins to grow and she may be at risk. Very concerned.

We are here for you and believe in keep it friendly, keep it fun approach. we teach, not chop.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> Wow, so much to read.
> 
> All great suggestions.
> 
> ...


Sadly the momma with the stillborn kids passed


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

You all have lifted so much pressure for us!! Thank you!! Thank you!!! Russ went to town and I've made a list for him. I have more questions and will ask yet as soon as I have time. Right now Little Goat is acting like she hasn't a care in the world. I'll post a picture. I ran out in my flip flops to get it though and that's cold in the snow!! She wouldn't turn around so I'm gonna go back out there with some better foot wear and get in the pen to get a picture from behind to post.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Little Goat today


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

She looks pretty good! Just keep an eye on her... what are her ligaments like? Mine lose their ligs about 24 hours before kidding, and get a whole lot of amber goo around 1-6 hours before kidding. Its a lot of goo. If you need me to, i can give you a pic of one of my does back-end about 4 hours from kidding if that would help


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

this video should help you
Good luck!!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> Wow, so much to read.
> 
> All great suggestions.
> 
> ...


Sadly she died. I'm wondering those questions too though and am gonna ask russ. I don't think the vets around here know much about goats.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Russ and Martha said:


> Sadly she died. I'm wondering those questions too though and am gonna ask russ. I don't think the vets around here know much about goats.


These are the hardest lessons goats teach us. If we can come away with new knowledge after a terrible loss, then we are better for it. And the next time you know and will be able to help the next mom if need be.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Ohhhh my goodness. You a writer,? Very prolific. 
How about we start with a deep breath. One nice things about goats, we learn as we go. Unfortunatly, some loose their life teaching us. 
Im sorry you lost the tangled kids & doe. This other doe, may not be anything like the first doe. She will need you to be calm. Talk to her and reassure her shes ok. Mine calm down and get busy having babies, I just sit and talk with them. Some of them like me to scratch them..if they do they come up and rub my hands. Once the are down pushing & moaning, you being a mother will relate, just watch for the front feet & nose to show. Its a little slow at first. Just be patient...dont rush in. See if she can do it by herself. If she does need help, only pull when she pushed. Be sure & use gloves,,,and lubricate your gloves. 
Main thing is attempt to be calm. That really helps her.


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

There has been a lot of good information posted, reaching out for help is a great first step. 
Little goat looks pretty good body condition wise. Boer goats can have 4 teats and often times all four will work, I have a few boer does that milk like holstein cows. Her udder doesnt look bad and from what little you can see in the picture I think the teats are fine. Keep a close eye on her for changes in behavior and signs of labor.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh no, I am so sorry you lost her. 
If she wasn't treated for uterine infection after delivering the decomposing kids, that may be what happened to her and she went sepsis. 

You are right, your vet doesn't know anything about goats or pregnant animals for that matter, very sad, as they should know this with any animals actually. 

Can you seek another vet perhaps, maybe your friend can direct you to one. Or another goat breeder. 
I am concerned this vet will not benefit you if you need help later. 
You were cheated by this vet.

You can come her to TGS, we will help as much as we can. 
But it is good to have a vet available in case RX antibiotics ect are needed.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

OK no progress yet today. I thought last eve I maybe saw a few contractions but nothing today. She was pawing some yesterday but I haven't seen her do it all today. She's just happily eating. Her ligaments? Well I've never felt them before but Russ says they keep getting softer. I went out and felt just now. She seems more mushy than big goat.


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

The babies are still sitting pretty high, they typically drop 12-24 hours before they kid.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

If she is like my boer, her udder looks close.








This is 8 days before she delivered.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

She is super cute!


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Just comparing hip points..or top of butt..your doe is still nice and rounded.. 
Looking at my doe..you can see how her bones are more pointed. Hollowed at the sides.


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## HossBoerGoats (Dec 28, 2019)

I'm so sorry for your loss of mom and babies  There is a lot of good information here! I will add; every goat's labor is unique. One of my does stands, doesn't scream or cry, she just gives a grunt, and the kid comes flying out. She had twin bucklings this year. She bagged up a month before kidding and didn't really show any signs of labor other than losing her "plug" a few days prior. The only way I knew she was actively kidding is because I heard her being loud via my goat monitor. From the time she started pushing to the time she had the second baby was less than 30 minutes. Every goat is unique. I am relatively new to my boers, as well. I was so worried I didn't sleep for a good month. The best thing to do is take a deep breath and "listen" to your goat. They will have their special ways to tell you "hey, maybe keep a closer eye on me". I'm excited for you and your family!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Once again... you are such helpful people. I should’ve joined the day I found this forum but it took some bravery cuz I was so worried we would viewed as bad “goat parents”. Plus I know I write out way too many details and sometimes that annoys people. I'm paranoid about it but can never figure how to condense stuff I write. I was worried someone would reply and tell me I shouldn't put so much info here and that I need to try to stick to the point and only ask a few questions.

So could someone show me a picture of a goat before and after the babies drop? I didn’t even know they did that. Like they actually drop closer to the ground? That doesn’t seem to add up cuz seems like they need to “drop” closer to her tail. and also yes I believe I can see the difference between my goats hips and yours. 

I guess we're just worried that what if her babies get tangled up too and we let her go too long before intervention or calling the vet etc. 

But I guess... I'm gonna try to relax and tell Russ to try to do the same!!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Oh and could someone tell me how much molasses to add to the warm water for mama goat after she kids? I haven't had time yet to Google it.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Moers kiko boars said:


> If she is like my boer, her udder looks close.
> View attachment 168323
> 
> This is 8 days before she delivered.


What does "udder looks close" mean?


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

happybleats said:


> These are the hardest lessons goats teach us. If we can come away with new knowledge after a terrible loss, then we are better for it. And the next time you know and will be able to help the next mom if need be.


Yes, one time I wrote on our bathroom mirror for hubby to see every day "There is no such thing as mistakes. It's called education!" But I think he's struggling with 3 dead goats out of 5.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> Two more essentials to grab at the feed store if you don't have them already
> Probios
> Vitamin B Complex injectable and some 3cc syringes and 20g needles


What is the vitamin b for? Sorry if someone already told me. I'm trying to go back and read this all again. I told Russ to buy some but didn't know what it was for yet.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Russ and Martha said:


> What is the vitamin b for? Sorry if someone already told me. I'm trying to go back and read this all again. I told Russ to buy some but didn't know what it was for yet.


Oh I believe we still have probiotic paste from our sick goats.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

When babies "drop" - it means they are getting in position to come through the birth canal. When you look at your doe, all the sudden she doesn't seem nearly as wide as she was, the babies are lower to the ground for a point of reference. An udder that is close is very full, may appear tight or shiny, her teats may also engorge with milk. B-complex helps strengthen the immune system and helps keep her appetite up. Have lots of towels on hand to get babies dry and warm if it is very cold out - I also use a hair dryer to get them dry. Wet + cold is no good. Dry and cold is fine. Lots of straw for bedding, I just use a "glug" of molasses in the water. Make sure milk is coming out of her teats and that baby is up and nursing. We ALL started as beginners at some point in time! The only people that aggrivate me personally are ones who won't ask questions or don't care - you are definitely not in that category! Also - humans need lots of coffee, snacks and hugs!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Russ and Martha said:


> I guess we're just worried that what if her babies get tangled up too


if she isnt in actual labor tomorrow, take her for a walk! It will help her get the kids in the right position. Maybe have your kids shake a bucket full of feed and quickly walk/run away. She will most likely come waddling after! Give her a tiny bit of food when she catches up to encourage her, and walk away again! Getting her to walk is good! Dint over do it though. You dont want to exhaust her, just a little work out!

i put about a half a cup of molasses in there, i dont really measure tho... If you want to, give her a choice of regular water, molasses water, and a mixture i use when a goat is done kidding
1 Gallon water 
2 tsp salt 
2 tsp baking soda
1/2 cup molasses
1 cup of apple cider vinegar (optional, but my goats love it)
mine drink that stuff right up!
Try not to have a bucket of water in the kidding pen, because she may drop the baby into the water by accident and it will drown. 
Good luck!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

https://farmfitliving.com/5-sure-signs-your-doe-is-close-to-kidding/


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Thanks again!! I'm gonna post a couple pictures of Big Goat cuz I think she might be getting close too. ‍♀


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Hi again,
I didn't abandon you I work two jobs and then had to feed my herd. Sorry. You've gotten some great advice. I hope you're feeling a bit more relaxed and comfortable with all of us here now. 

Here's a great video that will help





Also this one





I hope they help. There are a lot of good videos on Blue cactus dairy goats about deliveries.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

is this a different goat above


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> is this a different goat above


Yes, "Little Goat" and "Big Goat"

Who are both really nice looking does by the way!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Offer regular warm water along with the molasses water. Sometimes they don't like a different taste.

Regarding Vitamin B complex: first, it's hard to overdose, it is water soluble and they pee out extra. The basic dose is 1cc (ml) for each 25# of body weight. Given sub q (under the skin). For a newborn, you can give it orally right after birth, squirt (minus the needle) 1/2cc into their mouth. After a few hours, oral doesn't work, so give 1/2 cc under the skin if you don't do the oral route. Vit. B complex helps "wake up" the brain and gets the body working. 

Anytime a goat is "off" sick, or ? You can give Vit. B complex.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Hey...udder looks close
The udder swells and gets very full to feed the babies when they are born. It is usually full looking. Like a balloon that you blow up, you can tell to stop blowing so it wont burst. A does udder fills up, the skin looks tight, sometimes shiny. Days before the babies are born, the udder looks like it is holding more milk. Like it is filling up. So, if it is getting bigger, like almost to her knees, but not tight skin shiny....her udder looks close .... to being full. 
Hope that helps.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Here is my full blood spanish doe...before & after kidding








Oreo is the brown doe to the left of the kidd.







This is Oreo with her 1 day old twins

Frosting 1 week before her twins








This is Frosting after her twins








Hope this helps


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

After watching the video posted about the goat in labor, I decided that maybe I wasn't seeing contractions after all cuz my goat's tail isn't up when it looks like her belly squeezes and back arches. She's been laying down when I've seen it and I wonder now if it's just her repositioning. We will definitely be taking her on a walk tomorrow.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

And thanks so much for all the links and videos and pictures shared! It helps a lot! I haven't had time yet to go to all the links but plan on it soon. Also.. Those adorable baby kid pictures sure get me enthused!!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Russ and Martha said:


> After watching the video posted about the goat in labor, I decided that maybe I wasn't seeing contractions after all cuz my goat's tail isn't up when it looks like her belly squeezes and back arches.


She may just be stretching. She needs to get her kids in the right position, and this also helps with that.

HEY! I just realized, if she gives birth today, her kids will share a birthday with one of my favorite goaties, Clara!! :clapping:arty:


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm glad the videos helped. Before my first doe kidded I must have watched 50+ videos over and over to learn subtle signs to obvious signs and read everything I could get my hands on until I felt like my head was going to explode. It can be so overwhelming.
I found the best thing I could do was make an outline and it helped me get organized in my mind for the most part.
It was something like this:

Prelabor-
Not as interested in feed
Nesting-pawing
Spacey,separate from herd,yawning,stretching
Ligaments about gone, udder tight
Move to Kidding stall

Labor-no ligs
Goo
Bulging vulva 
Start timer with 1st noticed push, (30-45 min max allowed)
Deliver kids or call vet 

Delivery-
Wipe kids down, pull or give to mom
Give vitamin b, selenium /vitamin e, 
Dip cords

Immediate Post delivery-
Take care of mom, molasses water, grain, hay, banamine if needed
Kids: Health checks, weigh, re-dip cord
The day after:
Worm mom
Play with kids 

While it wasn't a complete list it gave me a road map to do what's important and it kept everything calm which is best for everyone involved.

On the back side of my list I had my crisis list...what to do if things went south...
On the top was my vets number in bright red numbers
Then page numbers to a notebook I compiled 
I.e. Breech pg 3
On page 3 was how to deliver a breech with pictures (see my earlier post with the PDF)
I also had a medicine list with doses so I could get them quickly.

You'll figure out what will work best for y'all, but being proactive is great and will belay some of your fears.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Happy kidding.


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## MuldrowBeeandGoatFarm (Oct 25, 2019)

Russ and Martha said:


> Yes, one time I wrote on our bathroom mirror for hubby to see every day "There is no such thing as mistakes. It's called education!" But I think he's struggling with 3 dead goats out of 5.


We felt the same discouragement when we lost 3 in a row.....I felt like a complete failure. I spent 6 hours on the phone and only found 1 local person who offered to talked to me. She had kept goats for about 7 years but stopped when her kids grew up. (They were 4 H goats). She gave me 2 very helpful pieces of advice and I will share them here with you..... (I have thick skin so not real concerned about judgements).......
1. Just remember this: Your goats wake up every morning with one thought... "How can I kill myself today?"
2. Goats are BRUTAL teachers. The word BRUTAL is the perfect word to describe the heart wrenching lessons you will learn with them. They are worth all of it.
I will add this.....DO NOT post less.....use all the words you need to tell what is happening because the people here who respond with a real desire to help do not mind more information. Also, never apologize for needing to ask.....but don't be surprised by a standard response of, "Take her to the vet" "Call the Vet" or something similar because none of us are vets. I think sometimes experience trumps being a cet because around here there are so few versions that work with goats. Good luck and I am so sorry for your losses. Keep on Goating!!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

how is she this morning?
EDIT: holy moly! i didnt realize it was almost 1:00 already! i guess i should ask how is she this afternoon!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

I've given up hope!! (zzz) They're gonna be pregnant forever!!!

Actually I'm just relaxing more. My boy took them for a walk and I'll have him walk them again later today. No signs of progress. But sure it's happening... I just don't see it.

Sadly my mind is also full with Russ's grandma dying in Kansas. I might fly out to Ohio next week with my youngest (the older 3 have to go to school) and drive with Russ's sister (who had a newborn and toddler) to Kansas.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm so sorry about your families loss. 
It's good to hear you're more relaxed though. Yes, the wait can be torture like that when you don't have confirmed due dates. It can be nerve wracking. Just know it will happen.
It's great you've got your goats exercising. Putting a cinder block in their pen is good for them to stretch on as well.
Thanks for the update.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

I guess I typed that out early this afternoon but didn’t finish it.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> The only people that aggrivate me personally are ones who won't ask questions or don't care - you are definitely not in that category!


^ This!

I'm so glad to see you taking a proactive approach with the next two goats. It's hard to know when to intervene when you've never done this before. The loss of the first kids was not anyone's fault, but the loss of their mother was the vet's fault in my opinion. Yes, she could have died anyway, but it sounds like your vet didn't even try and that is inexcusable in my opinion. Medical professionals should know better!

I second Toth Boer Goats' suggestion to find a different vet now if you can. That way if you have another emergency you'll have someone already lined up. Ask prospective vets if they do farm calls (including off-hours emergencies) and tell them what happened with the previous goat. Ask them what they would do to treat a goat with decomposing kids found inside. Try to get a feel for whether they sound proactive, knowledgeable, and most of all concerned. Some vets brush off goats as being on the worthless end of the livestock spectrum and you don't want one of those! I'll take a concerned vet with only little goat knowledge over one who knows everything but just doesn't care. At least the one who cares will do their best to learn.

Best of luck on your next two kiddings! I hope they have very happy outcomes.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

What I meant to say was that Russ's grandma is very sick and we don't think she'll live long. Russ and his siblings are the only grandchildren. I've spent the day looking at tickets, debating, etc. So not much time to think about goats.

I went out this eve and looked at them but didn't see any change. Top picture is Little Goat. Bottom picture is Bog Goat. My boy doesn't like those names so if you have some good suggestions, we'll take them!!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/goat-names.195331/page-2
Here is a bunch of cute names. Maybe you and your son can sit down and pick your favorites together


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

LG and BG. (doh)
Sorry, I've run out of names, I have 200+ in my head!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Well now we have lots of ideas for goat names! Thanks!! My oldest kept saying no to everything I read off (he was tired) and my next oldest boy was enthused about numerous names! We know for sure we want to name one the kids cinnamon so we’ve got a start!!! 

Yes it’s 1am but I finally just got a chance to ask my hubby some questions! (Hopefully our sleep/work/chat schedule will return to normal after our children go back to school next week) 

So, he said the vet pulled the dead kids out of Bossy and then felt around for more kids, smeared some kind of salve inside her and he thinks gave her a shot of something. She gave no instruction for the care of the goat but suggested she might die. He was uptight with it all and I assume didn’t ask too many questions but doesn’t remember seeing any afterbirth. I will ask my friend tomorrow if she remembers anything more cuz she went to the vet also. Russ gave Bossy some penicillin after he brought her home. He now bought some LA200. We assume that’s a better antibiotic? 

As for feed, my friend said not to feed our goats alfalfa but I can’t remember why so we got some kind of grass hay. What kind of hat do you recommend? We are using it for bedding also right now cuz we ran out of straw and need to get a bale from someone. 

The pellets are some kind of show goat pellets. I will post a picture tomorrow of the bag. 

As I said, they don’t tough the salt block or the mineral. I pull post a picture of the mineral also tomorrow. 

We will happily take any advice on what the best kind of feed to give. 

I keep reading back over stuff here, trying to soak it all in.... watching a few videos etc and hope to have time tomorrow to look at more. I want to write down what to give for what. And how much and why. And make sure we have everything we need.

Our goats have developed a mild cough the last several days. Russ thinks maybe it’s cuz the last bale he pulled out seemed kinda musty. Should we give some vitamin B? Or what? I know we have that cuz Russ just bought it!! 

At the moment, I can see both goats happily sleeping in their goat house. They seem much more content tonight cuz Russ didn’t close them in their little house. It’s either been windy, rainy, or snowy at night lately but tonight it’s totally calm and clear and a low of 28 so he left it open. There’s always a heat lamp on and he has a little heater too and numerous more heat lamps if needed. Oh how we wish for a barn but sadly the one that was originally here, burnt down years ago.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Russ and Martha said:


> He now bought some LA200. We assume that's a better antibiotic?


Yes, but do not give to any pregnant goats. It can harm the babies



Russ and Martha said:


> As for feed, my friend said not to feed our goats alfalfa but I can't remember why so we got some kind of grass hay.


Hmm, I wonder why! Alfalfa is actually great for goats! It provides calcium, which helps keep bones healthy, and produce milk! After she has her babies, I would definitley look into getting a bale of alfalfa or alfalfa pellets to give her when she is lactating. Be sure to introduce it very slowly though, she may scour (get diahrea) because it is rich



Russ and Martha said:


> Our goats have developed a mild cough the last several days.


Actually i would give 2 cloves of garlic per day until it clears up! It help boost the immune system, which will help them get rid of the cough. @NigerianDwarfOwner707 can help you with all of the ways to give it, but mine eat whole cloves coated in molasses, so its worth a shot with yours!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads...avorite-healer-garlic-for-goats.204743/page-2
Yes! I found the list, it is on the second page 2nd post. It is all the ways to give goats garlic


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

For a doe that had dead kids, LA200 is good stuff. I wonder if your vet cleaned her with a bolus or put some antibiotics up in her to clean her out? That's what a vet did for us years ago when we lost tangled twins and I couldn't get one out. Any time I have to go in and get kids I do a uterine flush with warm water that I had boiled and cooled (unless you have sterilized water), and LA200, as well as injected LA200. 

I wouldn't give a pregnant doe LA200 unless it's last resort. I'd do PenG. 

If it's a random cough, no nasal discharge, and no fever and temp is good I don't do anything. Otherwise it just depends on the symptoms.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

What’s normal temp for goats? Same as humans? Russ just bought a thermometer the other day for the goats.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

101.5*F - 103.5*F

Hotter than humans, important information if you are feeding bottle kids or trying to warm them up! your body temp is lower and what feels like hot milk to you may be perfect for them.


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## HossBoerGoats (Dec 28, 2019)

My doe, Maiden, one month before kidding. 








Maiden about 8 hours before kidding.

This doe played by the "doe code" and had me believing she'd be pregnant for eternity. They like to keep you guessing and on your toes 

I have several hundred photos of my pregnant does from this year, as I documented them weekly, and as kidding approached, daily, as well as took very extensive notes. Every little minute detail. It may help you in the future.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Thanks much again!! Still nothing happening over here with these goats... except me watching them grow!!! I’ve been sick today with bad headache and nausea. So glad the goats aren’t in labor yet!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Get well soon. :hug:


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Still sick today. Didn't even go out to look at goats. But my boy and hubby looked at them. Russ says we're out of hay. Headed to friend's place now to get more. She thought she'd have enough for us this winter too but now she's been using lore than she thought. So we're just gonna get a few bales and then need to find another source. Do you feed just straight alfalfa or mix with something? We have mostly stuff like corn and wheat fields in this area but a little alfalfa. The grass we were feeding comes from an hour away. My friend got hers from over 3 hours away. We live in the sticks!!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

if alfalfa is scarce there, i would just give alfalfa pellets. you can get them in the horse section at tractor supply. not the cubes tho, they are way too big








these are what u want

or this is also at tsc, but i dont think it is worth the 16 dollars









dont worry about it until after she kids tho... there are bigger fish to fry at the moment


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

Many people feed just grass or just alfalfa or some mix. 
I feed grass hay in the morning and alfalfa at night. 
Anytime you switch feed it needs to be done slowly so you don’t cause bloat or other stomach problems. especially when adding in alfalfa


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

So.... I THINK Big Mama is contracting! She's been pretty restless the last couple days but I've felt so awful I haven't gone out there much. She hasn't been hanging out in the little shed so I can't watch her on camera. So I just went out with my boys spot light to check on them. I'm pretty sure she's contracting. I came back in to get warmer clothes and my phone to take pictures. I have a really bad headache but I'll have to try to set that aside. I'll post pictures soon!!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Sigh...... I think it was my imagination!!! She's happily munching hay now. But she was standing all stiff before not chewing and her tail held high.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Now she's standing stiff


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Maybe she's just carefully watching for coyotes. I can't tell if anything is happening or not. I'm gonna check on her again in an hour. I have a video but I guess it's too large to post.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

MuldrowBeeandGoatFarm said:


> We felt the same discouragement when we lost 3 in a row.....I felt like a complete failure. I spent 6 hours on the phone and only found 1 local person who offered to talked to me. She had kept goats for about 7 years but stopped when her kids grew up. (They were 4 H goats). She gave me 2 very helpful pieces of advice and I will share them here with you..... (I have thick skin so not real concerned about judgements).......
> 1. Just remember this: Your goats wake up every morning with one thought... "How can I kill myself today?"
> 2. Goats are BRUTAL teachers. The word BRUTAL is the perfect word to describe the heart wrenching lessons you will learn with them. They are worth all of it.
> I will add this.....DO NOT post less.....use all the words you need to tell what is happening because the people here who respond with a real desire to help do not mind more information. Also, never apologize for needing to ask.....but don't be surprised by a standard response of, "Take her to the vet" "Call the Vet" or something similar because none of us are vets. I think sometimes experience trumps being a cet because around here there are so few versions that work with goats. Good luck and I am so sorry for your losses. Keep on Goating!!


What do you mean that goats wake up thinking...how can I kill myself today? That scares me...


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

@Denise Troy the very first goats i got the breeder told me, hey, be careful goats are always looking for a way to die:heehee:

It is just a joke. You know how you kinda gotta goat proof the whole goat shelter? So they wont get into trouble, or get tangled up in anything? lol

@Russ and Martha how is she this morning?


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

You all are gonna get your chuckles from me thinking "oh I think she's in labor!"  Nothing yet!!!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

She slept quite soundly all Night! Me too! I could barely wake up enough to look at her on my phone every few hours.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:haha:


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but, make sure the water bucket is where the doe can reach it, but the newborns can't be born in the bucket or fall into it. They could drown.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:up: Good thing to bring up. :clever:


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

ALL of us get excited hopeing our does are in labor. Thats part of the fun. It never gets old. We are always watching them waddle, checking that udder..looking for any thing! Swelling, oozing,,yawning, pawing...poor girls...they have to think we as humans are nuts!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod:


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

As for feed said:


> The reason is they say the alfalfa "burns hot", from what I understand that means it takes a lot of their energy to digest. To further understand, I'll include a link to an article. https://kppusa.com/2018/10/11/does-alfalfa-make-horses-hot/
> 
> As far as the Boer goat breeders I've met in person, I'd say they're split 50/50 on whether they like or dislike alfalfa. Personally, our goats are given a specific amount of alfalfa each day, but have "free choice" (all their heart could desire) brome hay in addition to their feed and foraging. A lot of folks only feed alfalfa for hay and thats okay from what I've been told (we're still somewhat new to goats ourselves). I read you have lots of brush and bushes for them to eat, so you are all set on the foraging!
> 
> ...


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## MuldrowBeeandGoatFarm (Oct 25, 2019)

Denise Troy said:


> What do you mean that goats wake up thinking...how can I kill myself today? That scares me...


When I was so miserable about losing 3 in a row and then we had one kid a month early and the baby didn't survive, I spent HOURS calling vets and Agrilife people looking for anyone who knew anything about goats.....I talked to a lady who had shown goats with her kids for years and she was the only person who would talk to me. She gave me loads of info and she lives about 20 miles from us.....she told me that 2 things would help me to know....1 is that goats wake up looking for ways to die everyday.....just because of all the silly things they do....and get in to......and 2 was that goats are brutal teachers......I have found both to be very true.


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## Ron at BFAD (May 2, 2018)

Russ and Martha said:


> Oh thank you sweet, kind people!!! I just watched her awhile again and she's sitting pretty still now. She wiggles her tail a lot though.
> 
> I will read again all that you wrote in a few hours when my brain is more awake and stores are open.


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## Ron at BFAD (May 2, 2018)

I've raised my loves, alpine, sorry my hates nubians, good old girls toggs, sanaans, boars, and others and have had them since i was 18. My largest herd was 64 and have had to deliver 5 from one doe who looked healthy but not overly big and one from a doe who looked like she would have ten. I'm very sorry you lost the doe with 2 kids, and an utter with 4 teats can still be ok if the quarters are all working which only from pictures its hard to tell. The teat size will get larger as they are used. Your learning and each event is a lesson, the reason things happen can sometimes not be known but if the girls where bred before you got them you can't blame yourself you can only correct from the purchase and go on. Yes there are a lot of things to learn and this sight has a lot of individuals who know a lot and are helpful and concerned. That said i hope to not ruffle two many feathers but one of the philosophies that I've stood by all the time I've been raising goats is mother nature knows best, trust her, shes been doing this for an awful long time and she's had more successes than failures. I will interject this now because i believe in it whole heartedly if you can get some rye flour into that goat or both of the pregnant ones do it asap. It works. From this point on start correcting mistakes. Don't beat yourselves up just move on. Care for the animals in need but take one step at a time. Right now it will seem that your being told this, that, and everything else, but mother nature is ultimately in charge. Your animals can sense when your stressed, tense, worried, and they want to please. You need to be calm and think things through, and understand what nature will do. Down the road after the cute additions arrive make the schedules, buy the needed additives, etc., but for now give a calm strenght to your herd. And pray, before, during and after. Best wishes.


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## Ron at BFAD (May 2, 2018)

Goats Rock said:


> I don't know if this has been mentioned, but, make sure the water bucket is where the doe can reach it, but the newborns can't be born in the bucket or fall into it. They could drown.


Thanks i was going to mention that anout the water pail and forgot had it happen with one of my first goats went in tbe birthing stall, sje looked like sje had it but couldnt find it til i went to water her.


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## Ron at BFAD (May 2, 2018)

Russ and Martha said:


> Well now we have lots of ideas for goat names! Thanks!! My oldest kept saying no to everything I read off (he was tired) and my next oldest boy was enthused about numerous names! We know for sure we want to name one the kids cinnamon so we've got a start!!!
> 
> Yes it's 1am but I finally just got a chance to ask my hubby some questions! (Hopefully our sleep/work/chat schedule will return to normal after our children go back to school next week)
> 
> ...


I should have added it seems to me that when the weather is at its worst for us, that's when the kids show up.


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## dldolan (Jan 19, 2017)

Hi!
Doesn't look like you have kids yet, so thought I'd chime in. I was new to goats 4 years ago, and used this site a lot for help! (Thanks, all!) Goats never cease to ....get in trouble! I've now been through a total of 5 births (so I'm just getting the hang of it!), one mastitis (udder eventually fell off despite my 2x daily care for 8 weeks and antibiotics x2 courses), stuck in fences, worming, shots, hoof trimming, milking, Billy Goat Gruff, etc. YOU WILL LEARN it all!

My Boers both had a main teat and a smaller teat on each side. Kids figure it out. If there are more than two, kids appear to nurse on the same side each time, so for one of my mama's with three kids, the two female kids had to take turns on the right side while the lone dude got his own left teat each time. BTW this was Lola's second kidding, and she dropped one, then the next two tried to come out together. Had to push one bubble back in a little ways but then she popped them out plop plop! So crazy.

This last time my other Boer Hannah had 4 kids. She didn't particularly like nursing the first time she had kids, although was okay ("Kids,n count to ten, go...Done! Walk away."). But four was too many, and she ditched the one female. We had to tie her up and hold her leg up so that Spunky could nurse several times a day for the first ten days. Then went to bottle, mash, hay, whatever she would take. Actually she'll eat anything she's given at 6 months now!

Hannah's first kidding was triplets, and we lost one. Hannah was sick before kidding and we almost lost her, and kids were born with floppy goat/selenium deficiency. Cost me a fortune in vet bills, so now goats all get selenium paste monthly when I trim hooves and put lice/tick stuff on.

I thought this might help. Here is our local large animal vet's shot/worming/care schedule for goats. Thought this might help.
Dawn


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## dldolan (Jan 19, 2017)

Oh. Also, since it's cold there, head to goodwill or equivalent and buy some old sweaters (with cuffs works best). These are easy to turn into kid sweaters, and you can toss them when they get too gross, and just use the next one! Just google "how to make goat kid sweaters" and you should find it. It's just cutting them at an angle so the fabric doesn't catch on their umbilicus, and adding holes for arms.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Aww.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Thanks again!! It’s so awesome to get so much good advice!! 

So for the water, we have a small oval stock tank with a heater thing in it. Is this of concern for baby goats? 

Those sweaters are sooo cute!!! 

So... yes we’re still waiting! And now I’m in another predicament!! 

Yesterday I mentioned that the goat shed needed cleaned out, meaning scoop out the poop. Since changing the hay, one of the goats have more “logs” than pebbles. Not runny though. Last eve Russ cleaned up the piles before putting the goats in for night. 

Well, my 13 year old boy was unaware of this. All he knew was that I said the goat shed needed cleaned out. He's really good with just doing what needs done without being told. Anyway, he's been outside quite awhile now (which he loves to just hang out outside with his animals) and so called out to see what he's doing. He said "cleaning out the goat shed. But I don't know what to put back in!" 

Well, he thought I meant ALLL the bedding had to be hauled out and he had worked for at least an hour or 2 hauling it all off clear across the yard one wheelbarrow load at a time!! 

Ummm... Well now I don't know what to do!! I don't really want to ask him to haul it all back. But Russ was actually working at getting a mat of hay built up. And cleaning out the poop, and always adding dry hay on top. Is that ok? 

We don't want to use the good hay we just bought for $10 a square bale for bedding. 

So.. Really Our only option we have here now is some wood chips /mulch we got last fall to use around our house/picnic area etc. It was an entire large trailer load and has been sitting outside. Would that be ok? 

Oh, Russ says he thinks we have a bag of pine shavings around but not sure how far that'll go. 

We can go to town this eve if we need to (but it's a 30 min drive) and buy some straw or more pine bedding. 

What would you suggest?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Pine shavings under straw works really well. Pine shavings absorb and the straw is for keeping the goats warm. It acts like an insulator from the cold ground.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

OK we went to town and got some more pine bedding and 2 small bales of straw!! Thanks!!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

What a great son! I know you weren't intending on doing a complete cleanout, but since he did, now you have a nice clean pen! It will rebuild in a short time!


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

Ron at BFAD said:


> I should have added it seems to me that when the weather is at its worst for us, that's when the kids show up.


Every dang time!! Speaking of, a winter storm is blowing through and I really should be getting back to the barn! Hubby is out there though and I have my phone on me.

I want to go read all the replies but I have so much to do! ugh!!! but I did promise hay recommendations, so... from The Boer Goat magazine published by American Boer Goat Association fall 2019 there is an article forages and hay supplementation. _ Some_ of the honorable mentionables are:

alfalfa, arrowleaf and red clover, oats, rye, tall fescue, costal and common bermudagrass, johnsongrass, pearl millet, annual and sericea lespedeza, sudangrass.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

JearDOE Ranch said:


> Every dang time!! Speaking of, a winter storm is blowing through and I really should be getting back to the barn! Hubby is out there though and I have my phone on me.
> 
> I want to go read all the replies but I have so much to do! ugh!!! but I did promise hay recommendations, so... from The Boer Goat magazine published by American Boer Goat Association fall 2019 there is an article forages and hay supplementation. _ Some_ of the honorable mentionables are:
> 
> alfalfa, arrowleaf and red clover, oats, rye, tall fescue, costal and common bermudagrass, johnsongrass, pearl millet, annual and sericea lespedeza, sudangrass.


Thanks! Maybe we should get that magazine!! 
Still no baby goats!!! Maybe they're not even pregnant!?!? Sure are fat and uncomfortable though!!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

But... I just did my last nightly check on my screen and I think....







onder:She's GOT to be pregnant!!!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

The Left side of the goat is rumen (tummy) and the right side is babies. 
The closest goat in the picture has what I call a happy rumen (provided the brown is her head) She just looks like shes had a feast. You never know just by looking....
I have a boer wether that I've had people ask when she's going to kid and then I replied HE just has a happy tummy because both sides look like he's going to have quads any time now. Some goats just look pregnant or fat and that's just the way they are. The only way to know for 100% sure a goats expecting is by an ultrasound or blood test.
I'm not saying she's not bred but the side of your doe in the picture is tummy not babies.

Get a backside shot for a better idea....If you're standing behind her and the right side is bulging then maybe ....


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## Rysktal (Jan 11, 2020)

I just wanted to say thank you to the OP for being so open and honest about what is going on. As a newbie (I dont have goats yet) I appreciate all the good advice found on this thread.

OP, I'm so sorry for all of your losses and hardships. I think your experiences are going to help SO MANY future goat keepers. Thank you ♡


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

How is everybody @Russ and Martha ?


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Yay!!! Is this called labor??? I don’t see her pushing. She’s walking around baaing a bunch and still nibbling at food. How long do you think till she kids?


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

That was fast!!! #1 and #2. Now to see if they’ll nurse!!!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Yay! Congratulations! She and you did great!
Make sure you dip their cords in iodine.


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## Amber89 (Feb 6, 2018)

Yay!! I had l less than 1 minute between my twins she never stopped lick the first one before the second was morn I missed it I was tending to the first and heard it looked up and boo.lol


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Aww! How sweet! Congrats! I second the dipping the cords in iodine


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Are they nursing yet?


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## Rysktal (Jan 11, 2020)

Yay!!!!


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

AWESOME TWINS!!!:goodjob::goatkiss::lolgoat::happygoat:
You did it! ALL 3 appear to be doing great! How are you? Isnt it AMAZING???? Congrats!!!


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Please put your new babies on the 2020 Kidding Tally! Its fun to see all the babies and keeps our count up!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

They're happy and have drank!!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

We quick ran to eat lunch with family so I’m watching them on screen. It doesn’t appear that the afterbirth has come out yet.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

She drank over a gallon of molasses water.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

I am just so excited that we all got to watch it happen!! So neat for our children!!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm so happy for you that's awesome! Sometimes it takes a bit for the placenta to pass. Sometimes they'll eat it so you don't know it has. Just watch her closely


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Oh and yes we dipped the cords in iodine. One is kinda long. Are we supposed to make them short?


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> The Left side of the goat is rumen (tummy) and the right side is babies.
> The closest goat in the picture has what I call a happy rumen (provided the brown is her head) She just looks like shes had a feast. You never know just by looking....
> I have a boer wether that I've had people ask when she's going to kid and then I replied HE just has a happy tummy because both sides look like he's going to have quads any time now. Some goats just look pregnant or fat and that's just the way they are. The only way to know for 100% sure a goats expecting is by an ultrasound or blood test.
> I'm not saying she's not bred but the side of your doe in the picture is tummy not babies.
> ...


Good info to know!! Thank you!!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> I'm so happy for you that's awesome! Sometimes it takes a bit for the placenta to pass. Sometimes they'll eat it so you don't know it has. Just watch her closely


Russ said she nicely "plopped" the after birth in the feed bowl and made it easy for him to carry out!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Great she passed the placenta. You can use dental floss and tie it off an inch away from the belly and snip it with sterile scissors.i usually dip the cord three times and it shrivels up and dries out.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Got a problem... Our little dark brown/ kinda black kid has a leg problem. We thought it was just being unsteady but the more we watch it, the more something doesn't look right. One of its back legs just doesn't work right. Like it almost bends the wrong way sometimes. We haven't a clue what to do?!? Just watch it? Take it to vet? I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow. A video would be better but the last time I tried to post one here, it didn't work.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> Great she passed the placenta. You can use dental floss and tie it off an inch away from the belly and snip it with sterile scissors.i usually dip the cord three times and it shrivels up and dries out.


Tie? Like actually tie it in a knot? Russ has dipped the cords a couple times today.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Russ and Martha said:


> Tie? Like actually tie it in a knot? Russ has dipped the cords a couple times today.


If you've dipped it a couple times it should be fine as is. But yes tie the dental floss around the cord really tight like a tourniquet an inch from the belly and snip off the extra umbilical cord hanging past the knot.
As far as the babies leg ...try giving baby a pea sized dollop of selenium/vitamin e paste..you can always splint it if it needs more support for a couple days but try the paste. I'd give it to both kids actually.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> If you've dipped it a couple times it should be fine as is. But yes tie the dental floss around the cord really tight like a tourniquet an inch from the belly and snip off the extra umbilical cord hanging past the knot.
> As far as the babies leg ...try giving baby a pea sized dollop of selenium/vitamin e paste..you can always splint it if it needs more support for a couple days but try the paste. I'd give it to both kids actually.


I guess I thought Russ bought selenium but it's not in our bag of stuff so he will get some tomorrow in town. The leg is definitely bending backward at the knee.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Russ and Martha said:


> I guess I thought Russ bought selenium but it's not in our bag of stuff so he will get some tomorrow in town. The leg is definitely bending backward at the knee.


Just put the pea sized dollop on your finger and put it on baby's tongue. It's amazing how quick it helps. If baby I'd deficient probably twin is as well as mom. If you don't give this regularly you should give all your goats some monthly.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> Just put the pea sized dollop on your finger and put it on baby's tongue. It's amazing how quick it helps. If baby I'd deficient probably twin is as well as mom. If you don't give this regularly you should give all your goats some monthly.


OK hubby brought home the selenium so I'm gonna head out there and give babies and big goats all a little. He's having a hard time getting around cuz of his leg so it'd be awesome if it helps!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All good advice.

You can brace the weak area's of the legs, to support it, so the tendons can shrink back into position.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

I gave each baby goat a dollop of selenium. It seemed that black goat (with bad leg) was breathing faster and harder and his heart going faster than the white and brown goat. Couldn't decide for sure though.

I wrapped the bad leg with an ace bandage but doesn't seem like it really helped at all. My goat lady friend is coming this afternoon with the proper stuff to brace the leg. I'm very worried that what if it doesn't heal. Is this common to have leg problems?


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

The mama definitely pays more attention to th white goat but he's more active too. I made sure to get black goat to drink on her and mama acted a little miffed. We'll keep watching them all closely. I sent a video to my friend of black goat. She said it looked like the leg was causing him quite a bit of pain.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

maybe he got stepped on? I would brace it.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Well its very obvious the little black goat is sleeping more and not drinking as much as the white goat. (Not sure I want the children to name them cuz they're both males and we'll sell them). And mama doesn't allow him to drink nearly as much as she does white goat. I've gone out numerous times and made mama stand still and let black goat drink. He actually appears more filled out and even feels like he weighs more than white goat so maybe he's just a more quality drinker. How do I make sure they're both getting enough? This is the mama with the strange udder... 3 small teetes on each side. But we checked and they all have milk.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Make sure their bellies are nice and plump, not sunken in and flat, but not hard and round, just in between. That is how you can tell they are getting enough.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

So my friend splinted the baby goat's leg. It almost appears there is a hip problem. But we'll see. She also said that it appears the kids are only nursing on one side. And is afraid they might not be getting enough. So Russ is trying to figure out how to milk her out a little on that side and get the kids to nurse on that side. 

Sadly Russ's Grandma died this afternoon. We really need to head to Kansas tomorrow but are feeling like we can't leave these little kids with only being checked on twice a day by someone doing chores that knows absolutely nothing about goats. 

So we're just trying to debate and figure out what to do.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Sorry for your loss. Can someone come at least 2ce a day to make sure the babies are eating and the water stays fresh?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry for your loss. 

Maybe take the kid to the vet and see if they can care for the baby and mama goat while you are gone at the vets office. Getting an xray will be wise. They will charge you for caring and boarding them, if they do that. 
Some do, some do not.

Or at least have someone who knows goats care for and makes sure the kid is nursing and fed. And braced correctly. A heat lamp will help too. 

You are correct though, if you leave things this way, you will have a dead kid and a mama goat with mastitis.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Ok so Russ found that black goat nurses on both sides and white goat is determined to only nurse on one side. So therefore we think that's why white goat is nursing more often and black goat is more content. Russ did take some milk off (is that the correct wording?) on the really full side. 

We'll know tomorrow when the funeral is but we think Friday. So we'll prob leave on Wednesday. My friend Jessica who has goats, offered to stop by every afternoon after she gets her boys from school, and check on the goats. She's the one that braced the leg so will keep an eye on it. She says if one of the babies isn't getting enough milk, she can take it to her house and start it on a bottle. And I'm sure she'll watch mama goats udder. 

My brother in law says he'll stop by on his way home for lunch every day and do a quick check on goats to make sure they don't need any help with anything.  And he says he can download the app to watch in the goat shed and do night checks. 

My brother and another friend will do morning and evening chores for goats. And... Our 11 rabbits, 11 cats, 2 dogs, 4 quail, and 6 chickens. 
Luckily the honey bees are tucked away for the winter and don't need anything. 

So we're gonna go and hope for best! 

Big Mama goat is very jealous of little mama's babies. She longingly watches them. She is now licking her udder and chattering to her own babies. So... We wish she'd have hers before before we leave.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)




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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Oh happiness!!! Big mama had 2 babies this morn!!!  Russ woke up at 6:30 and saw a baby with her. At 4am when he checked on her, he saw nothing out of the ordinary. Anyway, he beat me out there and caught the second one being born! 

The first one was cleaned off by kinda cold. We used towels and heat lamps to warm them up. They both drank but sadly mama has only one working nipple. Will that be enough for 2 babies? The non working nipple is quite large and very hard. 

Grandmas funeral is on Friday so we're gonna stay home yet today so we can watch the goats.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

The "non-working" teat on Big Mama probably just has a plug in it that is hardened and difficult to work out. Halter/Tie her, apply a warm compress, and then work the teat pretty hard from top to bottom to get it flowing. Do this ASAP do the twins learn to nurse both sides. The colustrum can be VERY thick so strip a few teat-fulls out once you have the blockage cleared.

As for your black kid, I really think this is just normal selenium deficiency in his back leg. He is not in pain and it will correct itself in several days. But DO be sure to give oral selenium to all the pregnant goats you have right away to try to help avoid the problem in upcoming births. Selenium deficiency can cause bigger problems, his is really minor and won't affect him long-term.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, do as suggested, but I would test the milk for mastitis on that side, if you are saying the udder on that side is hard. When you do get some out of there.
Check if the colostrum/milk looks normal and not clumpy, stringy, off color, watery, bloody ect.

If you do milk some out and it looks good(normal), she may be just super tight and needs milked out a bit to relieve her udder pressure.
Teach the kid the 2 sides. 
In the meantime, you will have to watch her and the other doe.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Oh I assumed if the teat wasn't working, it just wouldn't work. But this goat's teat has always looked strangely large. There's a very large hard lump at the base of udder /top of teat. It's like it's hard all the way to the tip of the teat. I don't know exactly how to describe it. It's kinda soft but like there's a central tube coming down that's totally hard all the way down. It's so hard it seems impossible that milk could be worked out of there.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

We have concluded that she must be permanently damaged from a previous case of mastitis or injury maybe. Cuz nothing is coming out of that teat!!! It was very rock hard like this from the first time we checked her teats right after the babies were born. My friend says she'll watch her closely for infection while we're gone. I just feel so apprehensive about leaving our goats for 4 days!!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It could be from a spider bite.

I honestly would get a vet involved.
You need to get that milk out of there.
A vet may be able to milk it out, by infusing her and trying to open it up that way, to get it out and you should use hot compresses. It needs to come out.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

OK so I am back now! What a whirlwind! We left for grandmas funeral and hoped for the best with our goats left in the care of others. 

The first report is that when we we got home the little black goat's leg was completely healed!! Him and his brother each got a dollop of selenium for 5 days and it must've done the trick!! Yay! Those 2 babies are FULL of energy!! 

Next report... Little girl and her brother just did a lot of sleeping while we were gone. And girl seemed hunched up and cold sometimes. Finally a bottle was started for her. For some reason the other 2 babies were the only ones that got selenium so we started it for the mamas and these 2 babies when we got home. Their last dose will be tomorrow. Some days little girl drinks a lot more than others. Today she drank a total of about 32oz I believe it was. We've been giving her 3 bottles a day but today she had 4. We're gonna try 4 for awhile now. She still drinks on mama too but not sure how much she gets. Her and her brother are often fighting over mama's milk. They still just don't seem as lively as the other 2. 

Big mamas non-working teet. We didn't do anything with it. I guess since numerous here say the milk needs to come out, we may need to involve a vet but I really thought that side could just dry up on its own. This afternoon it appears she scraped or cut that teet on the edge of the fence or something. I will post a picture. I planned to have my boy (mama goats really don't like me) put some antibiotic ointment on it but he wound up not being home till late tonight so I'll have him do it tomorrow. 

We learned that cow mineral is NOT good enough for goats. It's what was recommended at the feed store... But sigh... We're learning... DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!! So... Now I guess maybe we know why the mamas didn't eat much of it. And maybe that's why one baby suffered from a selenium deficiency. We now have goat mineral that our friend gave us some of. Also we took out their salt block (so they'd eat more mineral) but rarely saw them lick on it anyway. 

My friend also brought over a bag of grain. We are slowly daily increasing the amount we give mamas. They are loving it!! We are also giving them alfalfa pellets along with their regular ones and hay of course. 

I ordered a hoof nippers but we haven't had a chance to use them yet. I just feel sooo sorry for that one mama goat every time I see her feet. 

Sigh... We hated it that we had to leave when the babies were fresh born. But we are home now and they're all still alive so that is good. I just feel like there is so much we've done wrong and hardly have enough time to properly care for our goats. But we do love them and they're great fun for the children too. I guess we are just in a really busy time of life with 4 children ages 4-13, my husband starting his own mechanic business, me recovering from years of Lyme Disease. Etc etc! But both Russ and I agree that if we're gonna have animals then it is a MUST to take care of them properly!! So... We're trying!!


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

She is standing with her front legs up on the fence. This teet is the one that has always looked very large and deformed, has a hard lump on the side, and milk won't come out of.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Depends on which cow mineral it is. I use Cargill Right Now Onyx Cattle Mineral and that is a good one. Also Purina Wind & Rain cattle mineral is a good one. It is about what is in the mineral, not that it is cattle or goat. Not all the goat minerals are good either.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> Depends on which cow mineral it is. I use Cargill Right Now Onyx Cattle Mineral and that is a good one. Also Purina Wind & Rain cattle mineral is a good one. It is about what is in the mineral, not that it is cattle or goat. Not all the goat minerals are good either.


Oh ok! That makes me feel better. Thank you! I will look and see what ours is.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You cannot just allow her to dry off, if she has mastitis. Get that milk out of her. Even if you have to get a vet to do it.. Have it done right away.
Let untreated is just going to kill her.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Possibly, she may have had an abscess in the bad teat? If you can, a vet would be a good idea. They can put a tool into her teat and open the channel. 

I know it's hard when you have to leave to attend family things. Sympathy to you all for the grandmas death. You are doing fine. Make sure the weak kids are getting enough milk.


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## Russ and Martha (Dec 29, 2019)

Well, I sure don't want her to die but I just think her teet was deformed and non-working before she ever kidded. But I suppose she could still get mastitis. She is acting totally fine and healthy. If she had mastitis, wouldn't she have a fever? I have not taken her temperature but will try to tomorrow. We don't have anyway really to make her stand still. Surely I could buy a goat halter somewhere. I know this sounds crazy but my confidence isn't very high in the vets around here plus I haven't even paid the bill from them pulling the dead baby goats on a Sunday afternoon. But I know the vet bill would sure be less than the cost of mama dying and having to bottle feed both her babies.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Mastitis starts out when, she is not relieved and the milk sits in there. 
Her udder may get hot and lumpy(hard) feeling. 
After some time with it, then yes, she will run a fever and start getting very sick, it is very painful.

It will only get worse and infection will begin to over take her udder and can go sepsis throughout her body Very concerned for her_.
_


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