# Crying kids



## EggieBaby (Jan 7, 2014)

We finally got to bring home our kinderbabies and they won't stop crying! It's been almost 24 hours of non-stop crying. They have now lost their little goat voices. 
How long does it usually take for kids to acclimate and calm down? They are about 4 month old I think. 
Help! Our neighbors are going to report us....



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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

it can take time...they will be fine...spend as much time with them as you can...lots of affection and reassurance....


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Playing classical music calms them down, if you wanna put a radio out there...


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

hehe mine prefer very heavy metal \m/


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

Keep plenty of hay in front of them and give them grain if you aren't already. Kids that age are usually still on free choice grain here or at least 1 lb per day per goat for full size kids. Do you have another goat you could put with them for some more company?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Most common reason is they are taken away from what they have grow up with. Either a mother or a sibling. Add to that a new "scary" place and they can be days to a week of crying. You dont necessarily need to love on em a lot as that will transfer the dependance over to you and t hey will tend to cry every time they see you (which is what bottle babies do) but just being around them, playing with em and letting them enjoy and get used to their new area will often do the trick. After a few day of getting somewhat used to their pen, you can take em out for an hour to do your bonding and then when you return them to their pen, they are happy to be back to the one place they kinda recognize.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

They are actually 3 months... They were born on 1/3/14.... Poor little ones.... I feel bad too... If for some reason things don't work out I will buy them back... Unfortunately they just need to settle into their new place... Mom is fine here, but sister is not too thrilled without her siblings. I would just talk to your neighbors and ask for a few days grace period... They are eating though right?


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## EggieBaby (Jan 7, 2014)

Yes they are eating fine. One thing that really calmed them down is the bonfire Robbie made near-ish to their pen. They came and laid down right next to the fence and have just been mesmerized by it! The fire is dwindling now but they are still cozied up watching it. It's actually quite adorable 
We brought home 2 Jacob lambs today and I think their presence is comforting as well. Our little "Flerd" is growing! 
This has been the funnest hobby ever! I'm so in love with these babies, despite their crying. I can see how people end up with more animals than they ever planned on


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

EggieBaby said:


> We finally got to bring home our kinderbabies and they won't stop crying! It's been almost 24 hours of non-stop crying. They have now lost their little goat voices.
> How long does it usually take for kids to acclimate and calm down? They are about 4 month old I think.
> Help! Our neighbors are going to report us....


Given their age and the non-stop crying, I am assuming they were recently weaned. If that is the case, you can expect them to caterwaul for about a week - give or take a few days.


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## Esther88 (Nov 11, 2012)

I sure hope yours quiet down. My first two doelings that I bottle raised would scream non-stop anytime I stepped foot outside. Even with lots of toys, activities, and feed they were better but never got over it completely. I'm sure yours are crying just because they are transitioning to a new place, I don't think I will ever bottle raise/bring a goat in the house again after my first two! LOL!


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## EggieBaby (Jan 7, 2014)

Well their crying is reduced by about 50% but our neighbors want to "talk" to us about the goats tonight. Praying they will have grace for our babies and that they will give us a week or so to see if they quiet down. I don't blame the neighbors, my nerves are raw from all the crying...probably because I have 5 REAL kids who take turns whining, crying, complaining etc.!!!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

EggieBaby said:


> Well their crying is reduced by about 50% but our neighbors want to "talk" to us about the goats tonight. Praying they will have grace for our babies and that they will give us a week or so to see if they quiet down. I don't blame the neighbors, my nerves are raw from all the crying...probably because I have 5 REAL kids who take turns whining, crying, complaining etc.!!!


Praying!! How are the sheep doing with them? Are you guys off on Spring Break too this week? I'm sure that will help some...


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Well aside from being a jerk neighbor, if you are zoned for livestock, they dont really have a choice. The smells and noises of livestock go hand in hand. Now what I would do is tell em, to meet you at the fence containing the goaties to have that chat. If they are decent neighbors, they will understand when you tell them, they will quite down soon enough.


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## EggieBaby (Jan 7, 2014)

They said they checked the CC&R for our area and we aren't supposed to have livestock. I looked through all of our home purchase papers and we have no record of signing anything but we did purchase the house 7 years ago...long before we started dreaming about goats. Our county allows for livestock as long as your property is over a 1/2 acre and we are on an acre. So we have to decide if we want to stick to our guns or give in. My hubs went over and talked to them and was really gracious and they are being nice but said it's "out of their hands" because of the CC &R. Our real estate agent is checking the title to see if there really is one because they couldn't show it to us so I'm not so sure... Sheesh, this is stressful! Can't we just enjoy our new animals without someone raining on our parade?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yikes!!;( I hope you find answers soon... Technically you have mini's which are legal even in parts of Seattle, so you may have a loop hole there so to speak. Are they also complaining about the sheep too, or just the goats? I hope they calmed down some with the nice weather today...


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## Aprilszoo (Mar 31, 2014)

EggieBaby said:


> My hubs went over and talked to them and was really gracious and they are being nice but said it's "out of their hands" because of the CC &R. Our real estate agent is checking the title to see if there really is one because they couldn't show it to us so I'm not so sure... Sheesh, this is stressful! Can't we just enjoy our new animals without someone raining on our parade?


Doesn't sound like they are being nice.... Sounds like they are being passive- aggressive donkeys.... 
Out of their hands?... They are the ones complaining!! It's totally in their hands!!!  Nobody is forcing them to confront you ... Sheesh....

I would say if they can't produce these "CC&R's" then tell them to take a hike.
Do you even have a homeowners association? Are you both even in the same association? Maybe you don't have these CC&R's because you never signed them because you are in a different HOA. Or none at all.
(In my area, because each homebuilder has a different HOA, someone living on the next street over is actually in a different HOA than we are.... So their CC&R's certainly don't apply to us. They can't park rv's in their yard.... But we can, even though our property line is shared. Doesn't matter if they like it or not... There's not a thing they can do about it.)

Don't let them bully you... Stick up for yourself and you little goaties.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I sure hope this works out.


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## craftEcowgirl (Oct 4, 2013)

Whats a CC&R? We live on edge of town within city limits, but we are zoned A1. I contacted city zoning and was told how many of what animals etc. We have just an acre too. I have a nigerian and lamancha coming in June! Our first goats, though I had goats when I was young. I also am looking to add a lamb too. Hope all works out for you. I worry about our neighbors too, we have one on each side, just farmland in front and back.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Id go back over and say. Well we have thought it over and we are keeping the goats. Very shortly they will quite down and all will be peaceful. If thats not enough for you then I guess we both need to prepare for a fight, as I am not getting rid of my goats until there are sheriffs knocking on my door with a hard fought court order from a judge.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

And neighbors like that are why I don't have any! Good luck to you! Stick to your guns.


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## Aprilszoo (Mar 31, 2014)

craftEcowgirl said:


> Whats a CC&R? We live on edge of town within city limits, but we are zoned A1. I contacted city zoning and was told how many of what animals etc. We have just an acre too. <snip>
> I worry about our neighbors too, we have one on each side, just farmland in front and back.


*CC&R's*: Covenants, conditions and restrictions are limitations and rules placed on a group of homes by a builder, developer, neighborhood association and / or homeowner association. All condos and townhomes have CC&Rs; however, so do most planned unit developments and established neighborhoods

It's not like this is a one or two page document....I've don't think I've ever seen one much less than 20-25 pages, and I've seen one that was pushing _100 pages_ :shock:

You would get a copy of before you buy property ideally, but at the very least you get a copy at closing, because it is a part of the closing documents, and you have to sign saying you got them, read them (almost no one ever does, until there is a problem :roll: ), and that _you agree to abide by the rules...._

I really think you should make them show you the actual CC&R document... There's a pretty good chance it doesn't exist anywhere but in their heads... Especially if you live in a rural area and not in a developer-created neighborhood. If the homes in your area have been built by various builders over many years, the chance that you live in an HOA, is extremely thin. :sigh:

And even if they can produce the document, don't just give up.... Make sure you actually live in the same HOA... And often if you get most of your immediate neighbors to sign off on an exception, you can petition the HOA to allow a variance... 
If, and that's a big IF, the complainers can give you proof that you are in an HOA and that the by laws prohibit goaties... Think about taking a proposal to neighbors on the other side, and behind you, and across from you, and talking to them about the law in your county, and whatever other reasons for having goats (like the milk, if you can't drink cow milk) and asking for their support. Get their signatures and bring it up at the next HOA meeting.

But.... I wouldn't approach the other neighbors until you have to, unless you already know and trust them. You don't want to come off as adversarial.

Sorry this turned out so long.... 
Arbitrary HOA rules that directly impact my freedom and quality of life and have no benefit to property values make me :hair::GAAH:


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## goatfarmer4891 (May 9, 2013)

Any type of radio noise will help to soothe them and the more hay you give them the more they are going to eat and once they see the you're the one feeding them they will be comfortable and rely on you. It takes time


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## EggieBaby (Jan 7, 2014)

I just wanted to update and say it's been 2 weeks and the goats are completely acclimated to our home! The only make noise occasionally now, usually when they see me coming with their grain or when they are running around playing and butting heads. Every time I fed them I waited till they were quiet so that they never associated their crying with being fed. We give them attention but I have purposefully tried to go into the pen only when they are quiet so, again, they learned that they can't just shout for attention. They love when the kids come and play with them and that keeps them happy.
I think bringing the 2 lambs home really helped too. The 4 animals are so sweet together! They run around, but heads together and even sleep together sometimes! 
The sad news is that we are pretty sure we have to give them all up. Our neighbors are unrelenting and without paying for a real estate attorney we don't see how we can keep them. Our family is devastated (especially our 5 children) and I feel like a dream of ours has died. We just don't know how to fight without making enemies out of our neighbors for life.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

You need to get a copy of the by laws or what ever and go over them top to bottom. I am sure there are a number of them that your neighbor is violating as well. Also, many lawyers will give a free consultation. You will be allowed to speak to them and they can give you an idea about where you stand and your next move. CC&R or not, dont go down without a fight. And as mentioned, check your paperwork that you signed when you bought the house to make sure its even legit.

And as for your neighbors. They already are your enemies. Once they know they can, they will continue to bully you.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

;( I'm sorry... That's sad. What do your other neighbors think? Just curious.


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## Haviris (Oct 7, 2007)

There is no way I'd give up that easily, *especially with no proof that you aren't supposed to have them. *

And this is why I don't have close neighbors, I would not let someone decide what I can or can not do on my own property.

As far as making enemies of your neighbors, they aren't worried about it, why should you be? I'm a very laid back, easy to get along with person, but I will not be walked on or bullied.


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## cybercat (Oct 18, 2007)

I would go down to the county clerk office. You can get information there about your house. It is free most of the time. I would not buy Into that you have a cc&r. That is covered by realtor when buying a house. Neighbor might be in one but you might not be.

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## snubbie (Apr 13, 2014)

I am NOT defending the neighbor here but let me play devils advocate just second. Imagine working hard, buying your dream home and a neighbor decideds to raise a couple of pigs in their backyard. This is likely what your neighbor is imagining and the reason for restrictive covenants. There are restrictions for the purpose of protecting those who do not wish to live next to a pigpen...or goats, sheep, chickens, etc. Having said that, I typically hate them. It ends up pitting neighbor against neighbor and it is a requirement of enforcement that neighbors have their noses in other peoples' business.

Ultimately, no restrictions, either real and binding or in your neighbor's head, are enforceable unless your neighbor actually takes you to court to enforce any restrictions. If they are not binding, he's likely going to drop it as he would be liable for court costs. On the other hand, if you signed a binding agreement not to keep livestock, it becomes a matter of conscience whether to stand on what you agreed to. If not, and you decide to keep them, it could still end up being decided in court, in which case, you'll likely have time to agree to get rid of them before actually getting to that point.

Either way, I'd get a copy of any restrictive covenants and find out for myself what they restrict rather than just take his word for it. Getting rid of pets just to keep a nosy neighbor happy isn't something I would do unless he were indeed suffering from my pets or his property value was affected.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I went up against this type of scenario a few years ago when we kept our pet wether in our backyard in a covenanted neighborhood. There were empty lots on every side of our property so no close neighbors, but one guy who owned property about a mile away in our unit (but did not live there) complained to the zoning board. We ended up getting a petition signed by every person who DID live in our unit asking that we be allowed to keep our goat. We were never granted a variance but we were also never taken to court. The zoning board kept sending us obligatory letters from time to time, but we knew they had neither the funds nor the inclination to enforce the rules. Members of the zoning board kept coming up to me in person and apologizing that they had to send another letter (two of them lived on our street, and all of them loved our goat!). 

So before you sell your goats, definitely review your covenants, and even if you have restrictions you should still look into the possibility of getting a variance or at least getting neighborhood support. If you keep your yard neat, your grass green, your sheds and pens clean and sweet-smelling, then you should have no trouble with your neighbors. Turns out the guy who complained about me for the goat complained about everyone for every kind of violation (real and imagined) that he could think of. The zoning board eventually got sick of the guy and his endless pages of infractions, and all of them resigned at once so there was no one for him to complain to. Me and my goat have lots of friends in our community, but Mr. Grumpy-pants is stuck with his bad legacy.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Unless law enforcement shows up with a warrent for the seizure of your animals you do not have to get rid of them. 

I would really want to see a copy of the "cc&r" because I'm curious if there even is one or if they are making it up. If they are making it up, and it's not against city code to have them, I see no reason why you'd have to give up your goats.

It's your home. If it's legal or can become legal I see NO REASON why you cannot keep them. And on that note, why are you so worried about making life long enemies of your neighbor? They are OBVIOUSLY not worried about making lifelong enemies of you guys! So my guess is you guys are NOT going to get along. Either you are the neighbor who kept the goat, or they are the neighbor who made you get rid of the goat. I see no happy resolution here. Might as well keep the goats!


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## Haviris (Oct 7, 2007)

Ok, I've always lived on a farm or around lots of animals, so maybe I have a unrealistic view when it comes to city/town living/people. Do goats stink? I'm fairly sure mine do not (well ok, bucks do definitely smell pretty bad, but I'm assuming these babies are not going to be bucks?), I can see where they could when kept inappropriately. I do know that they 'can' be loud, and it seems even almost expected that young babies just taken from their mothers may take a bit to settle down, but once settled in, in general I'd say kids and dogs make more noise (or maybe it's just mine). 

I think the more appropriate action for the neighbors would have been to talk about their concerns and give you a chance to go over what you will do to take care of them. Instead it sounds more like a passive aggressive threat, and THAT I would have a hard time rolling over for.


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## cybercat (Oct 18, 2007)

Life first those articles with a friend and I can testify that goats do stink. To someone that does not live on a farm goats do smell. When one works around animals one becomes immune two the smell.

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## Aprilszoo (Mar 31, 2014)

snubbie said:


> I am NOT defending the neighbor here but let me play devils advocate just second. Imagine working hard, buying your dream home and a neighbor decideds to raise a couple of pigs in their backyard. This is likely what your neighbor is imagining and the reason for restrictive covenants. There are restrictions for the purpose of protecting those who do not wish to live next to a pigpen...or goats, sheep, chickens, etc. < snip >


But.... The argument only applies IF there even are CC&R's in the development where you are buying said dream home (OP already determined that in her county she can legally have livestock on her property) 
And furthermore IF the property with the pigsty is in the same development/ HOA.

It's hard to imagine that two properties, even if they abut one another, can have totally different restrictions, even rules that completely contradict the other.... But it does happen. 
And unfortunately dream house or no, you can't enforce your CC & R's on someone not in the HOA even if they live next door.

In this case the neighbor threw around some big intimidating phrases at the first encounter, and then in passive-aggressive bully style, claimed they (the neighbors) had no choice, and their hands were tied..... BULLPUCKEY :twisted:.... Since they are the ones complaining then they have a choice.... Put up (the documents) or shut up.... 
Really if they're the only ones complaining they could choose to give it a little time and see if there is still a problem in a few days or weeks.

:grouphug:

Eggie, I hope you don't give up your animals on their say-so.... You said you don't remember any CC&R's when you bought your house.... Maybe there weren't any.... You owe it to yourself and your family not to back down until/unless there is real evidence that you should. I would still be telling them that they needed to show you in writing what proof they have.... You have the law on your side, until they can prove something different... Their flapping gums are not proof...

Going to the county or city clerk is a great idea.... A real estate agent (maybe the one who sold you the house) should be able to find out if there are any covenants or restrictions on _your_ property, and if they are different than your neighbors. Look through your packet that you were given at closing. Page through it carefully looking for anything that says homeowners association.... Or covenants and restrictions of use.... Anything like that....

Was your home built as part of a development or individually? Is your home the same age as your neighbors? These answers can help you figure out whether you are likely to have HOA rules....

You have so many avenues to explore that would let you keep your animals.... And a long time before worrying about the need for a lawyer. Listen to what others have said in this thread.... And take a deep breath....

With people like your neighbors, if you give them an inch, they _will_ take a mile ....and then some. This time it's your goats, what's next, the color of your house not to their liking?

:grouphug:


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## EggieBaby (Jan 7, 2014)

I think I found a loophole! I just registered the goats as "emotional therapy animals". We are a foster family and we are caring for 2 foster kids with serious emotional and attachment issues. Their is very clear research that animals help children with these types of diagnoses.

I also contacted our county council member to see if there was a way to work around this. In Seattle a council member had mini goats deemed as "small animals" instead of livestock so that people can keep goats as pets. 

We did find the CC&Rs for our property (written in 1966) and they do say "no livestock" but the codes do allow for pets. If we can make a case that our goats are pets then we won't be breaking any rules and we will keep them.

These goats are small kinder goats: a doeling and a wether. They are so quiet now, much quieter than all the dogs around our property. I think people just aren't used to goat noises. We have done everything we can to conceal the animals and their "structures". If we can get permission, I won't feel bad telling the neighbors we are just going to have to "agree to disagree".


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yay!!! They won't get very big, and yes they are good therapy... I really do hope you get to keep them;-) Classifying them as pets, is a good thing;-) Do they have issues with the sheep too, or just the goats? Just curious....


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## snubbie (Apr 13, 2014)

Aprilszoo said:


> But.... The argument only applies IF there even are CC&R's in the development where you are buying said dream home (OP already determined that in her county she can legally have livestock on her property)
> And furthermore IF the property with the pigsty is in the same development/ HOA.
> 
> And unfortunately dream house or no, you can't enforce your CC & R's on someone not in the HOA even if they live next door.
> :grouphug:


 You are exactly right. And this is what I said in my post and why I said this:
_*"Either way, I'd get a copy of any restrictive covenants and find out for myself what they restrict rather than just take his word for it." *_

I'm on the side of the OP goat owner.

But at the time I posted, the OP had not determined whether the restrictions were indeed real or if the neighbor had just said so. Now we see from her post above, the restrictions DO say no livestock.

I wish her the best of luck to have them listed as therapy animals to her foster kids.

But my only point was, restrictive covenants are legitimate and they are there for a reason. I live under restrictions that say, "no poultry". My little girl has raised 6 baby chicks that will be moved outside this weekend. If a neighbor raises the question, my response will be, "Those aren't poultry, they're pet chickens." Will that work?

With a neighbor on one side, probably. He and his wife spoil my daughter. The neighbor on the other side? Dunno. But he has a "free range" dog that uses my yard for a toilet and harasses my Golder Retreiver. She has also acted aggressive to my family. So if he says something, my initial reaction would be to get his dog under control and on his own property before I even discuss "poultry".
If he wanted to push the issue, legally I'm bound by the restrictive covenants.

However, as I mentioned in my previous post, it would be up to him to push it as far as a court order which is a big pain, consumes a lot of time and therefore unlikely. The only way to enforce restrictive covenants is for a neighbor to enforce it through court. If he does, I don't have a leg to stand on.

I hope the OP gets a variance and/or the neighbor drops the whole thing. My best wishes and good luck to them!


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## EggieBaby (Jan 7, 2014)

snubbie said:


> But my only point was, restrictive covenants are legitimate and they are there for a reason. I live under restrictions that say, "no poultry". My little girl has raised 6 baby chicks that will be moved outside this weekend. If a neighbor raises the question, my response will be, "Those aren't poultry, they're pet chickens." Will that work?


My husband really wants chickens too. Our CC&R says "no poultry" but there was a case in MT I think where a home owner was allowed to keep his "pet chickens that lay eggs" because the definition of poultry is chickens raised for meat. 

We have decided to sell the sheep because I don't think we will get approval for them. They are Jacob sheep and have gorgeous horns but that will make it more difficult for us to keep them. Most counties and cities that allow goats to be kept as pets say NO HORNS. Plus the sheep are louder. The goats are the animals the kids are really bonded too.

Maybe the neighbors will be appeased with our number of animals being cut in half...


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I'm so glad you are working towards keeping the goats.

I agree strongly that goats can be an immense help to foster children or children with attachment disorders.


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## snubbie (Apr 13, 2014)

EggieBaby said:


> We have decided to sell the sheep because I don't think we will get approval for them. They are Jacob sheep and have gorgeous horns but that will make it more difficult for us to keep them. Most counties and cities that allow goats to be kept as pets say NO HORNS. Plus the sheep are louder. The goats are the animals the kids are really bonded too.
> 
> Maybe the neighbors will be appeased with our number of animals being cut in half...


I hope things work out for you in this situation, I really do. Best of luck to you!


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## mburnsch (Apr 26, 2014)

I am praying for you and your family!! I have dealt with hateful neighbors before, even over something as silly as the placement of a bush on my property!! I am not in a HOA, thank goodness!! I just ignored it. Once they realized I couldn't care less about their pissy fit, they hushed. I truly hate most restrictions placed on homeowners, because you have paid for your right to do as you see fit on your property. The only time I do see a need for the restrictions is to curb a person who takes things to excess, thus impacting neighbors. Take all the advice given you here by everyone, and don't give up!! As with most bullies, they are most likely all talk and no action! As many have already said, for all intents and purposes, they are already hostile, so there is no basis for a friendly relationship with them, so don't worry about what they think. They don't pay your bills, or care for your property, so they can hush!! Best of luck to you, I am praying, and please keep us updated! 


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## oakshirefarms (Jul 5, 2013)

We can definitely understand your situation. As many people have said, you definitely need to stand your ground and not let your neighbors bully you in any manner. If you just roll over now, they will continue this type of behavior any chance they get - which is totally unacceptable. Stay strong and know that our thoughts are with you as well.


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