# Am I doing something wrong (milking)?



## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

So it's been since the end of July that I've been milking Roseanne, a FF Nigerian dwarf. I don't know why, but I just am not getting the hang of it! I still have to hobble her, and when she's finished eating, she just jumps around like a MAD WOMAN! I usually just try to continue milking into a small cup, but she continues the same old tricks: laying down, bucking (even with the hobbles), jumping, yelling.. I try petting her, singing to her, I've tried milking from behind (she has VERY small teats that are hard to maneuver) and from the side. 

The other thing that tells me I must be doing something wrong is that she still only gives 1 cup per morning milking. I've switched her hay to a very nice Alfalfa, she gets grain, BOSS, Timothy pellets. I just keep telling myself that she just has a small udder, but shouldn't production have fluctuated at least a little from 1 month post freshening to 4 months? Her kids are still nursing during the day (they are separated at night for approx. 11 hrs), but I only see them do it maybe twice/ day (should she be weaning them by now?). Every morning, I get 1 cup no matter what. 

Being that she has such small teats, and this is the first animal I've milked, it takes me forever. I guess I'm just frustrated because I can usually pick things up quickly and for some reason, milking this goat is just not coming naturally :scratch:

She is very sweet when I'm sitting out there with them, and loves to be brushed, but other than that she yells all day long (another huge issue), she only gives 1 cup of milk per morning, and she has micro teats. I don't want to give up on her, but geeze, she is giving me a run for my money! 

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!!!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

You will need to wean the kids for her, she won't do it herself until 6 months or more. If you don't have an adjacent pen to put them in, you can try taping her teats after milking each morning but they might just pull that off.

You can also try putting an upside down bucket under her belly in front of the udder while she is on the stand to help with the laying down issue. But you are very good to be aware and alert of the fact that something is uncomfortable for her to make THIS much of a fuss. Were you trained to milk cows before milking goats? Often cow milkers use too much "pull" versus more of a "strip". Have you watched a bunch of videos of people hand milking goats on Youtube?


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## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

It's good to know that about the kids. I feel like they aren't drinking all that much, but maybe they are when I'm not watching? 

I have watched a LOT of videos on milking - first, because I wanted to learn how to do it, and then again because of her ultra tiny teats. I can get a pretty good stream going, but not for very long.. Either my hands get cramped or I have to reposition.

This may be a stupid question, but how do you know when she's milked out? I know that lack of milk would be the first indicator, but I feel like no matter how long I sit there, I can still get the faintest of streams. 

Do you think I should try to milk twice/ day, even if her kids are still on her during the day? Not sure if this might increase production or just be a waste of time..

I am determined to get this down! She may be a pain in the butt, but she isn't getting away that easy


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The udder feels empty. Once you have a fully empty udder, you can tell the difference. You may need to consider some type of milking machine.


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

It sounds like she behaves herself ok while she is eating? You might want to try mixing some alfalfa pellets in with her grain to beef it up so it lasts longer. Some people put large, smooth stones in there to slow their goats down, but I think mine would just make a big mess digging around if I did that. 

If she behaves while eating, you're probably not doing anything very wrong, but see if you can get in contact with some experienced goat people in your area (Facebook groups can be a good way to connect). One of them might be very happy to come by and give you a lesson. I learned to milk from youtube, but it was on an experienced doe, not a FF. 

Kids can drink a lot, even if you don't see them doing it. My 5-month-old Saanen doeling was still drinking at least a quart a day off her mom. I've watched her suck down that much in one sitting (I could estimate the amount by how full the udder was before and after). 

Nice teats make such a huge difference. Do you have space for a larger doe? I milked a friend's Nubian once, who's teats were perfectly sized for my hands, with large orifices. Milking her was about 3 times faster than milking the same amount from my Saanen, who has small teats with small orifices. I've never milked tiny micro teats, but I think if I did, I would be happy to only have to milk out a cup!


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## grindylo (May 15, 2014)

Hugs and hang in there! I clearly remember how stressed I was learning how to milk my FF minis. It would take an hour to get a cup or two. Finally settled on diy hobbles and figured out how to milk with my uncooperative hands. 

Not sure if it will help at all but I'll tell you what I do. It's different from most, using two hands on one teat at a time. I sit to the side of the goat and gently hold one side of the udder right above the teat with one hand, like holding a wine glass with mostly a thumb and forefinger. Then I put the fingers of my other hand on the teat like most videos show. I use the top hand to supply a little extra pressure on the milk in the teat and then squirt it out with the other hand. Then just get into a one-two, one-two kind of rhythm, being sure not to reverse and push milk in the wrong direction.

Also, while milking, I often switch teats. One side will slow and I'll stop and massage the udder a little and switch sides, repeat. Massage is helpful to get more milk to let down and to feel for any lumps (milk in the ducts that needs some relaxing or a lump of mastitis). When an udder isn't super full but still has some milk it kind of feels (to me) like a water balloon. When it's empty it's soft but deflated, doesn't feel puffy anymore, aside from not giving more milk. 

My does get really annoyed on the stand when they don't have anything to eat. Sometimes they also kick when they're thirsty. I usually keep a dish of water, a few handfuls of hay, and a little extra food nearby in case they're being extra persnickety. Sometimes if I keep a hand on the udder while they're kicking around then they give up and stay still for a bit. Once in a while if nothing seems to help then I'll give the doe a break and walk her a bit so she can pee or put her back in and milk a little later. Sometimes it's like that and they have to pee/poo and don't want to while in hobbles. Or it could be that they see a dog or something else is making them nervous.

Sorry for the wall of text. Hope something helped and best of luck to you!


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

Some goats take longer to learn how to behave on the milking stand. I went for months having to hobble my herd queen in order to milk her after her first freshening last year, but now she is perfect on the stand.

It's possible your girl is holding back milk for her kids. It's kind of crazy, but they can consciously keep their milk and not let you have any of it. If she were doing this, you'd work very hard for very little milk and her udder would never really be empty.


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## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

Thanks so much you guys!! Yes, I was considering some sort of milking machine; however, I feel like that is a really last resort. It bums me out because I enjoy being out there and if I could do it, I know I'd like it. Also I feel like it's overkill since I just have the one doe I'm milking - is that taking the easy way out? But, it may save some stress on both our ends. Is there one that people tend to have good success with?

I do pretty much anything I can to keep her busy - I mix her grain with Alfalfa/ timothy pellets and some beet pulp pellets (neither of which she touches on the milk stand, they just deter her) on top of that, I put some hay and then 2 smooth rocks. Sounds crazy, but it does keep her busy for a while. Once she gets kicky, I take out the rocks and extra hay so she can clearly see the grain, and still she gets antsy and leaves some.

I am looking forward to trying grindylo's method! Who knows - maybe that's just the ticket!

I feel like her udder is never really EMPTY. It always feels a little tough (not the right words, but hard to explain). Maybe because it isn't shaved - it's pretty hairy. I didn't shave it because there isn't a ton of hair on her actual teats.

Thanks so much again for the motivation! I know I can conquer this


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Lock the kids up in a dog crate or something overnight and see how much milk you get in the morning. They are definitely drinking a lot of the milk, might be that you start milking with a somewhat empty udder. That's what happened to us, it took about two hours to get 1/2 cup, we locked the kid up and sure enough, maybe 15 minutes into milking we had a whole quart.


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

She probably won't eat the pellets because she has access to alfalfa hay. Mine definitely prefer alfalfa hay, but it's too expensive here, so they settle for pellets.

Stay calm and be sure not to reward her for her bad behavior. I'm sure she'll settle down eventually. Do get someone experienced out there to look at her if you can; they might be able to tell you if she is holding back milk or something else.


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## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Lock the kids up in a dog crate or something overnight and see how much milk you get in the morning.


We do lock up the kids at night. That's why I'm so concerned that she only gives me 1 cup on maybe an 11 hour fill.. Maybe she just has a small udder?

I day dream about getting a whole quart :fireworks:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

My guess is that you have never fully milked her out. At this point she may be drying up since demand isn't there.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

1) Pictures would help.
2) she may not be letting down her milk, saving it for the kids.
3) how much grain/feed is she getting?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

The kids are easily old enough to wean at this point. Unless she's drying off, my guess is that your gal is not letting down her milk. She's saving it for her babies and you're "stealing" it. My Alpine/Nubian cross, Petunia, wouldn't let her milk down for me this summer. She easily milks 2-3 quarts in one milking, but I could only get 2-3 cups. I'd milk out that paltry amount and then she would hop off the stand and happily feed her kids. Now that her babies are grown she's letting me empty her udder. When Petunia was holding milk, her supposedly "empty" bag still felt full and was hard and fleshy at the top. After she let down for the kids it would be soft and look empty.


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## grindylo (May 15, 2014)

lilaalil said:


> She probably won't eat the pellets because she has access to alfalfa hay. Mine definitely prefer alfalfa hay, but it's too expensive here, so they settle for pellets.
> 
> Stay calm and be sure not to reward her for her bad behavior. I'm sure she'll settle down eventually. Do get someone experienced out there to look at her if you can; they might be able to tell you if she is holding back milk or something else.


That's important, too! When certain other members of my family were helping milk they would feed small amounts at a time to make the food last longer. So the goats learned kicking = more food. Aargh. I've mostly retrained them out of that but not enough to go without hobbles. Are the hobbles you use pretty good? Not too tight or uncomfortable?

What everyone else has said is very true, too. She's probably holding back or it could be she doesn't have much in there or something else is going on.
Does the milk you do get out look good? Not yellow or watery? How does her udder feel?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Harriet_and_Hens said:


> We do lock up the kids at night. That's why I'm so concerned that she only gives me 1 cup on maybe an 11 hour fill.. Maybe she just has a small udder?
> 
> I day dream about getting a whole quart :fireworks:


Oh, okay. Sorry I missed that part!


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## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> My guess is that you have never fully milked her out. At this point she may be drying up since demand isn't there.


I think you're right. This morning I did a little experiment and after I thought she was done, just like someone else suggested, I took her off the stand, let her pee and poop, and let the kids out. They are only on her for a short amount of time, but I got her back up on the milk stand and there was a noticeable difference in the feeling of the udder! Then, just now when I put them in, I got her back up there and again, a much different feeling - very soft and fleshy. The kids definitely sucked her dry today because I wasn't able to get one drop out of her just now.

So she is Definitely holding it for the kids onder: anything I can do besides message her udder? Is it just that she isn't comfortable enough? When about should she start weaning the kids? For some reason I thought around the 4 month mark, but it's hard to remember what I actually read as fact and what I made up in my head 

I give her 4 cups of grain with the other stuff in the mix in the morning on the milk stand. She usually doesn't finish all of it though, just starts her bull riding routine.

I appreciate all of your input - it's nice to be able to narrow down the problem!


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

You might need to separate them completely to wean if she hasn't by now and you want the milk. I wean and sell kids at 8 weeks. 
You can softly bump her udder as the kids would to let the milk down.


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## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

I can't really separate the kids full time, as these are the only 3 goats I have. Mom would be pretty lonely 

I did a little experiment the other morning. After I (thought) I was finished, I let her off the stand and let the kids out. They nursed for little more than a couple of moments and I got her back on the stand. Her udder was NOTICEABLY different feeling. It's amazing in just that short amount of time how different it could be.

Then at the end of the day, I got her back up on the stand and I couldn't get a single drop. So the conclusion is that she is definitely holding it for the kids, and they are definitely sucking her dry during the day.

The next morning, I was able to get a bucket under her to combat the laying down, and was able to use all my might to hold her back legs and I got her udder to feel empty!! Now, it was less than 1/4 Cup difference, but I've kept doing it, and while she isn't giving a noticeable amount of milk different, this morning she was a much better girl for me on the stand!

I guess there's always next year - hopefully her daughter is a little better


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

You're probably pretty attached to the kids, but you could always consider selling them and buying another doe, possibly even one in milk. Getting a docile, experienced milker would be great for your milking education, and may even help settle down your current doe, if she sees someone else being milked and not making a big deal about it. Or selling at least one of the kids might help some with supply. I think you said one of them is a boy? 

If you do decide to buy another doe and sell both kids, get your new doe first, let them settle in together for at least a few weeks, preferably more, and then sell the kids. That should make it easier on your current doe. 

I wouldn't count on her weaning the kids before 6 months, and some have been known to let them nurse until they have new babies again... She may wean them earlier, but she very well may not. 

But yes, there is always next year. She should have more milk the next time around... but then, she may also have triplets  But if you keep working with her, she should at least be easier to milk by then.


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## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

Yes, we are attached to the kids (the wether even more so I think than the doeling) but I like the thought of getting an experienced milker for her to learn from. I was planning on buying a couple of full sized dairy goats next year, but I'll start looking now and maybe that could be my early Christmas present 

Why do those little stinkers have to be so darn fun and loving? I know, I know, they're farm animals (that's always my husband's argument) but IMO they've got much more gusto to them than any cow I've ever met (and more than some cat's I've met as well..)!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

What breed are you looking for in dairy goats?


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## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

Goats Rock said:


> What breed are you looking for in dairy goats?


I was hoping to get 1-2 Nubian does. But lately Lamanchas have been looking more and more attractive.. I just have to get on board with the ears - but beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

One more thing - when we were at the fair this year (cuyahoga county) there was an area in the goat barn where they had a small group of curly coated nubian. I guess probably angora/ nubian? The owner wasn't there at the time and there was no sign. Do you happen to know anyone in the region that has these because they were absolutely BEAUTIFUL!! And I can't find anything online onder:


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## msmac2016 (Oct 29, 2016)

I use the milker made by Dansha farms. My doe does not object and believe me she would let me know if she did not like it. She has a strong will but I have been successful using this little device for about $100 or less. I cannot get the hang of milking by hand and have tried over and over. My daughter when she visits does it effortlessly.


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## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

msmac2016 said:


> I use the milker made by Dansha farms. My doe does not object and believe me she would let me know if she did not like it. She has a strong will but I have been successful using this little device for about $100 or less. I cannot get the hang of milking by hand and have tried over and over. My daughter when she visits does it effortlessly.


Awesome! I will certainly look into that, thank you!

Isn't it funny how some things come natural and some things just don't no matter how bad you want them to? Silly goats.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I love my Henry milker 
http://www.henrymilker.com/


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

Most of my little nigies have been little pills when they were first fresheners but did totally different as big girls. One of my easiest to milk now used to sit down - lay down - scream - you name it she tried it. Good luck. I also found feeding them a pan of chaffhaye helped keep them quiet longer.


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## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

wndngrvr said:


> One of my easiest to milk now used to sit down - lay down - scream - you name it she tried it.


There is hope after all! Hopefully Rosie will be like this too!

Actually, after posting this thread and getting so many awesome suggestions, she has been doing (a little) better. I've got a bucket under her to combat the laying down, and now that I know what her empty udder feels like, I don't let her get away so easily.

It's just MY milking skills I need to work on now, but I'm getting there.

I am thinking twice about a milker, because my problem is the actual milking out part, and upon reading about the milkers, it sounds like they do the brunt of the work, but you still have to finish off. Well I do OK right off the bat, it's JUST the milking out that I'm having trouble with, so I might save my money (for now).

As always - thanks guys! You're the BEST!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok so just because she is a ND doesn't mean she is a huge milker. FF don't usually produce as much. She is as you found out holding back for her kids. 

Tape those tears during the day. I use athletic tape from Walmart. Up and over the top of the teat and then around. When milking punch the udder (not hard but not to softly either) up near the top of the udder. This will help her let down that milk she is retaining up in the udder. Do this several times as needed until the udder feels soft. 

Good luck


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## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

StaceyRosado said:


> Ok so just because she is a ND doesn't mean she is a huge milker. FF don't usually produce as much. She is as you found out holding back for her kids.
> 
> Tape those tears during the day. I use athletic tape from Walmart. Up and over the top of the teat and then around. When milking punch the udder (not hard but not to softly either) up near the top of the udder. This will help her let down that milk she is retaining up in the udder. Do this several times as needed until the udder feels soft.
> 
> Good luck


Thanks so much! I will probably have to tape her teats, although for the first time this morning when I let the kids out, she immediately denied them and walked away - she didn't let them on her AT ALL - this is something I haven't seen her do before so I think either 1) she is starting to wean the little ones or 2) she knew she didn't have any more milk to give them because I sucked her dry the best I could.

Anyway, punching the top of the udder is a good tip - I'll have to make sure I'm doing that.

I expect she will give a little more next year. Even if not, she is a good girl and a joy to be around  I'll just have to add another to the herd!


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

I haven't had any problems with weaning my pygmy does wean their kids at 3.5 months every time FF aren't easy to milk and if you keep the kids away from her till you milk you should get more


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