# CAE versus copper deficiency symptoms



## sandoval (Apr 14, 2009)

Hi,
I am starting to breed mini-nubians and have 5 does and 8 doelings. I am having a few problems. I will describe them together in case they are related. 
4 month old mini nubian doeling: started loosing weight 2 months ago. Her fur is usually erect and dull and lately she started shivering and lost appetite. She has been keeping her head down as if she is tired. I noticed that she can't eat big leaves and she only drinks half a bottle, then coughs and seems to almost choke. Her berries are smaller than usual and dry. Her grandma used to have the shivering as well and did not impregnate again after the first birth. 
Niobe is a gorgeous 1 year old doe, but her knuckles on the back feet click and turn forward when she walks. Otherwise she looks very healthy.
Caipirinha is a 1 year old doe that developed mastitis in one side of the udder in March. I tried 4 different antibiotics, injection and infusion and a variety of natural herbs such as garlic. She still tests very positive for mastitis in the CMT test. Her coat is dull and brownish and she lost weight. 
Pumpkin is a one year old doe. Very active and good milker. The hair in her coat is turning thick and dull and the points stick out 

My other goats are very healthy. I feed them alfalfa pellets ad libidum, 1 cup of almonds and 1 cup grains per day, and I take them on daily walks to browse. Our area is selenium deficient so I use the selenium/vitE paste from Hoegger's every 3 months and last week they all had a Bo-se shot. They have been dewormed with Ivermectin pour-on. I have not given them copper bolus yet but will do so as soon as it arrives. They have Sweetlick and mana-pro loose minerals available all the time. Could this be CAE or copper deficiency? I could not find information on distinguishing clinical signs of each one. Do you think these problems in different goats are related? How show I tackle them?
Thank you so much,
Cris


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## potentialfarm (Apr 11, 2011)

Welcome!
It does sound like you have copper deficiency, along with possibly something else going on. 
Have you done fecal testing/worming?

There's some great pics in the forum showing goats w/copper deficiency. Fishtail, and change in color/texture of the coat (like your girls have), are tell-tale signs of it.

I'm not all that knowledgeable about actual signs of CAE, & hope I never have to be. ray: 
Hopefully someone with more experience will post. Good luck with your girls! TGS is a great place! If there are answers, you'll find them here. :wink:


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## glenolam (Jul 20, 2010)

If they just had a BoSe shot, they will show signs of improvement within a few weeks - I was thinking they might be showing signs of a selenium deficiency. the only thing I will say about that is to make sure you're not cotinuing to give them the paste in addition to the BoSe shot...too much will cause toxicity and is hard to overcome.

The copper bolus sure won't hurt and you should hopefully see results within 2 weeks.

You said the mini-nubian that's 4 months is still on a bottle? How much is she getting? Is she on a coccidia prevention program? Is there anything in her history that could pass on to her, such as the shivering in her grandmother? I'd be concerned with her since she's showing similar signs to her grandmother.

Have they been tested for CAE? False positives do exsist, but testing them would be a great way to know what your dealing with.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Hi there and welcome.... :wave: 

Get a temp on the 4 month old...to make sure she hasn't gotten pneumonia from being so down... Shivering and loss of appetite might indicate pneumonia ... Then I'd recommend getting a fecal done for worms and cocci.... How is her gums and eye color is it real pale white or faintly pink? Does her tail have a fishtail appearance to it? If so that is a copper deficiency..... along with the dull course hair.... Even though.. you have the loose salt and minerals out for them ....some don't eat it.. so they become deficient....

Is she bloated?

Is it cold there when they are shivering? If so it is normal for the body to shiver to regulate the body temp..... If she is sub temp...you will have to get her temp up... so taking her temp will let us know which way to treat her...


Niobe.... trim her every couple of weeks... with her.. it sounds like she is just has over grown hoofs...and needs hoof trimming segments to correct her.... With CAe.. it is usually the front knees that are effected and they are unable to walk on them for very long...and are found on their knees alot...the knee's will be swollen and very painful....

Mastitis...did you strip her out (milk her completely out) each time before infusing her udder with meds?and do this daily...1 to 2x a day? Did you try today or tomorrow on her? If so...I'd get a vet to look at her and maybe give her something stronger to stop the mastitis with her...

Also ...have her fecal tested for worms and cocci....

If they are showing signs of fishtail and rough coat... then I would try to supplement them with copper bolus.... 


Just to let you know....goat do need roughage for their rumens to work properly....feed them some hay once in a while to keep them healthy....


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Welcome from NJ :wave: 
sounds like a few things going on. CAE rarely presents like they in such young goats. It can affect goats of any age but young ones generally show different signs. the signs such as swollen knees generally show up in goats over 2. You can have them CAE tested but they must be at least 6 months for the blood test to show if they have it.
maybe/most likely copper deficiency. can you post some photos of them and their tails. 
if you did BoSe don't keep doing paste you don't want to give too much!


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