# bizarre encounter with a buyer-discussion on polled breeding



## TexasRanger (Feb 2, 2010)

I had a possible buyer come out today to look at little Alexi. The guy checked conformation, eyes, ears, teeth, teats, and balls. When he asks when I de-horned him, and I reply that he is polled, the guy backs up and gets a look on his face. He then proceeds to tell me that he is not sure that he wants him since he is worried that Alexi is sterile since he is polled. :scratch: I am like "What the heck!?" The guy then proceeds to ponder and count on his fingers, etc. He then tells me he has to do some "research" and might be back in a week to look at him. He is worried that if he breeds Alexi to his does, then he will have sterile or hermaphrodite offspring. Sirens should have gone off in my head when he asked over the phone if Alexi has four teats, since according to him "Nubian and Pygmy mixes sometimes have weird babies" :doh: . I thought polled X polled might equal hermaphrodite? Has anyone had an experience like this? I've decided to put Alexi back up for sale, since I don't trust this guy. If anyone is interested I have his sister Sasha and a psychotic red Boer doe for sale.


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## K-Ro (Oct 14, 2007)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Supposedly, polled goats have a higher incidence rate of hermophradites or sterility. A lot of articles state that you should only breed a polled goat to a horned goat, etc.

But then again, some want the polled gene in there herd too.

There really doesn't seem to be to much difference, percentage wise, when you get a hermophrodite - whether it came from polled or non-polled.

There are a some good articles on it if you do a search.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Polled goats arent sterile -- some say that polled to polled with cause sterile or hermaphrodites goats but Liz has a doe Binkey and she is a polled doe who has kidded 3 times and pregnant for a 4th -- she is a result of a polled to polled breeding.

And the only hermaphrodites I have seen or heard of were actually horned goats. So I dont know how much truth there is to the polled to polled breeding claims about hermaphrodites


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Thanks Stacey, yes Binkey is the result of both parents being polled and her twin sister is polled too and has also kidded 3 times. Ironically, Binkey was bred to 3 different HORNED bucks for her first 3 freshenings and has never had a polled kid. This time around, we'll see how these kids turn out because I "linebred" her with Chief.....who I suspect is polled and mistakenly disbudded because he's thrown 5 polled kids to horned does.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

I don't believe it at all. I have seen A LOT of polled goats with normal offspring. If this was the case, no one would even be breeding or showing polled goats...what would be the point? I have a polled buck and ALL his offspring have been healthy and fertile. I don't believe that breeding polled to polled does anything either.

There are polled cattle and if you can find an entire herd of polled quality herefords then you are in luck because you won't have to disbud calves. It hasn't been known for producing sterile offspring.

I would tell the guy good luck with his goats, but he's not the right fit for this buckling. I can see him in the future thinking he's sterile or something's wrong with his offspring and dumping your poor guy at an auction or something.


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## TexasRanger (Feb 2, 2010)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

I doubt he's coming back. He lives on the other side of the lake, and there are plenty of of horned goats on Craigslist.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

I agree with the others.... :thumb:

Maybe it is a blessing... that he don't come back...he isn't very knowledgeable....about goats....things happen for a reason... :wink: :hug:


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## Victoria (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

We had a hermaphadite from a polled buck last year. It was the third breeding from the buck, bred to a horned goat...I sold my polled buck because of it...It kindof freaked me out!!


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

I do not want to ruffle any feathers here but I do see where he is concerned. After all if he hears only that polled goats are Sterile, then that is what he is going on. The best thing you could do is either be happy he is not taking this guy, OR educate him. Have him come here, talk to him and explain that you understand his concern and we all have heard this before, and help him. After all if he is that aware and detailed about checking this guy over, he might be a darn good goat owner and you can't fault him for being concerned.


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## TexasRanger (Feb 2, 2010)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

I tried to educate him, but he would hear none of it. I asked him if he wanted to look it up in my goat books, on the internet, etc. But he said he had to go home and "research" it. :whatgoat:


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Maybe he just didn't want to pay the price you had on him?? We've had people real shady like that say. "Ok Ill buy your goat" and never come get them. So infuriating!

I can sorta understand him being worried, but Im not! I dont have any polled goats so Im not worried. When and if I get one, then Ill take the time.


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## Dreamchaser (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Please don't throw goat berries at me, but I would kindof agree with him. I'm concerned about hermaprodites also coming from polled stock. But I think that is only if you breed 2 polled goats.


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Almost my entire breeding program is based on polled to polled breedings.... my goats are as fertile as it gets... now if you can please get my 5 and 6 week old bucklings to quit breeding my adult does.... I will be happy!!!!!!! LOL Oh and for those concerned about polled/polled breeding please research the appenhell (sp??) it is an entirely polled breed of goat. The hermie gene is based on 2 different things one being "free Martin" based and the other simply being from genetics.... sometimes you get a bad pairing. More hermies have been produced from horned/horned breedings than polled/polled breedings and polled/horned breedings would be the most unlikely to produce hermies.  
As far as this person not wanting to buy the buck.... he just hasn't researched enough... list him on the polledgenetics group on yahoo.... you'll sell him quick to someone who appreciates the gene.  Nothing better than polled goats in my opinion.... I LOVE THEM!!!!! No disbudding!!!


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## Dreamchaser (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Really Jess? That is awesome. I am just going off what I have read in the books. *shrugs*


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## dvfreelancer (Aug 15, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

What a surreal discussion. It's like saying you could practice birth control by trimming your fingernails. Unless you're polling goats by starting at the back and going up through the inside (not recommended by the manufacturer), there's no way that could have any effect on their reproductive capability.

Unless from polling they got some bizarre infection that only effected their reproductive system, male and female alike. That's so far off the reality reservation it borders on witchcraft. Might as well suggest it had something to do with the phases of the moon.


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## kids-n-peeps (Aug 24, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Just a quick google search on this topic brings up results like this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=30IHvL ... ts&f=false
so if this is what the buyer has been reading, it's really not so bizarre for him to be concerned. It is good that you tried to educate him, though


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Because I am just getting started I have been reading every goat book I can find. I would say out of the 6 or 7 i have read in the last month all but one or two stated as if it were fact that polled goats throw free-martins and/or hermaphrodites. Several of the books went in to great detail about it. Because the details in each book were very much the same and because so many of the books mentioned it I never doubted it for a second. I thought it was weird, but from being involved in other species i know that sometimes unexpected defects can be caused by things you would think could not possibly be related... like a white horse that is genetically homozygous for the right kind of Overo (a coat pattern) being born with an incomplete digestive tract and dying every single time (it is called Lethal White Overo), or like how hairless Chinese Crested Dogs have incomplete dentition, etc. So it didn't seem the least bit far fetched to me when i read it.


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## logansmommy7 (Nov 11, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

So glad to hear it isn't a big deal since I just got my beautiful (I guess I should say handsome) polled buck. I have planned to only breed him to horned goats, but if the occasion arose and I had a pretty polled girl to breed him to, I probably would! Wouldn't a hermaphrodite always be a possibility as in all of nature? Why polled to polled is there more of an incidence? :whatgoat:


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## Dreamchaser (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

I just bought that new book by Sue Weaver "Hobby Farms GOATS" and it talks about them:

Page 30-31 "Whichever sex you're considering, be aware of one of the peculiarities of goat breeding: breeding polled goats to one another sometimes results in hermaphrodite offspring..."


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## dvfreelancer (Aug 15, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

I can see there's a shortage of research in goat breeding, sure is a lot of pop science going around. What's the background rate of hermaphroditic expression in goats? And how is the expression in polled animals different than that established background? How do you separate out genetic influences from environmental?

Relating your experience is fine. You can say at your farm you've had 3 hermaphrodites from polled parents out of X number of babies, but you can't assume that applies anywhere else. There could be a million variables at play. Only years of careful research can determine which one is responsible. Something in the feed, maybe the wormer they're using, something they spray on the grass or in the soil.

My goats eat acorns and oak leaves all day and never had a problem. Stacey said hers like acorns and don't get sick. Other people have had problems that may or may not be related to acorns, but they certainly believe that's the case. So I can't say they're not toxic to some species of goats under certain circumstances. I can say it doesn't bother my crew.

Everybody wants black and white, definitive answers and life just doesn't work that way.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

very well put dvfreelancer -- I feel the same way about it

and to all you who feel nervous about the polled breedings, dont do it then. No use worrying yourself over it. No one will look down on you for your choice to stick with somethign you know -- horns 

its personal choice at this point. The advantage of internet is that more of us can interact quickly and information is either passed quicker and can be relayed as to how we have experienced it in our herds, something that they didnt have way back when. Its a good thing, maybe research will be done on this and a more definitive answer can be given.  There maybe a link or there may not be. Right now the common thread is that polled to polled breedings will create hermaphrodites, while some of use are realizing that just because its in a book doesnt mean it fits into what we have experienced in our herds or a friends herd.

With more of us testing it out personally and not just taking a books word for it, it will be interesting to see what the mantra is in like 10-20 years from now. TIme certainly will tell. I plan on trying a polled to polled breeding if the opportunity arises.


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

I'm just glad this topic came up because i never would have questioned it otherwise... not after having seen so many sources state it as fact!

This begs the question... Why is it that we know so little about the animal that provides more milk for more people in this world than any other? They say that 70% to 75% of people on the planet drink goats milk. More than any other source of milk on the planet. So why is it so hard to find someone in veterinary medicine who knows about them? Why do we have to resort to so many off label medications? Why is our knowledge based so much on personal experience and not on scientific research that can be proven? From a purely utilitarian standpoint it would make sense for those in research to study them if for no other reason than because so much of the world's population depends on them for survival.

Of course, there isn't much money in studying goats, I guess. Not like there is in dairy cattle where millions of dollars in profits are hanging in the balance. So i think I just answered my own question, lol!


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## kids-n-peeps (Aug 24, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Just to point out . . . MOST of what I've personally read says that most of the time, the goats WILL BE normal in a PolledXPolled cross (esp. in heterozygous polled instances).

The following info gives some numbers and attempts to explain when a problem could occur, which might prove helpful to confused buyers. I'm not saying ANY of this is proven by research to be correct/incorrect, but it does explain things a bit better than other things I've read.

From: http://myotonicgoatregistry.net/Article ... fects.html

*Polled

Some people consider polled (genetically hornless) goats to be defective. This is usually because of the risk of intersex or hermaphrodite kids from these goats. This risk has to be put into a proper context for breeders to appreciate what is going on.

Polledness in goats is dominant, and goats with two doses of the gene are masculinized. The end result, if you work out the results of the cross, is that a polled goat mated to a polled goat (nearly all of these only have one dose of the gene) will produce the following:

1/8 of the kids will be normal, horned males.
1/8 of the kids will be normal, horned females.
2/8 (1/4) of the kids will be normal, polled males.
2/8 (1/4) of the kids will be normal, polled females.
1/8 of the kids will be males with shortened reproductive life
1/8 of the kids will be females that are masculinized to hermaphrodites.

In many populations of goats the 1/8 that are hermaphrodites are so completely masculinized that they appear to be males, and so are counted in amongst those. When that happens, the result is a kid crop that is 5/8 male, 3/8 female.

Mating polled to polled is the worst-case strategy, and still provides 3/4 normal kids. Mating polled goats to horned goats completely eliminates the production of the hermaphrodites, and so is a safe way to use and enjoy polled goats. That is, with appropriate management there is basically no risk to breeding polled goats. Some breeders like them, some do not, and this variation is really trivial rather than a serious defect. Most importantly - breeding management makes these goats perfectly useful with no risk.

The polled goats with two doses of the genes are usually very round-headed with no protuberance where horns would have been. While head shape can be misleading in some instances, in most cases it does help to pick out the goats with two doses of the gene.*


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*



> Mating polled goats to horned goats completely eliminates the production of the hermaphrodites, and so is a safe way to use and enjoy polled goats. That is, with appropriate management there is basically no risk to breeding polled goats.


while it may remove the the production of possible hermaphrodites in a polled breeding it doesnt mean that you will never get a hermaphrodite ever in your herd.

In the recent past I here on TGS some people have experienced hermaphrodites and none of them were from a polled or polled to polled breeding and the kid was horned.

So just wanted to make sure that is understood. Its not only in polled to polled breedings that you can get a hermaphrodite


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## kids-n-peeps (Aug 24, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

Yeah, Stacey, I agree. I didn't like that statement in the article above either. They might have meant that it eliminates hermaphroditism caused by the link to this particular polled gene, but it would not eliminate the chance of it when caused by other (unknown) genes/environmental factors, etc. However, I liked that it clarified that most babies even in a polledXpolled breeding would be perfectly "normal" kids as I do think there is misinformation about polled goats out there. Unfortunately I don't think there is proven, 100% correct, well-researched info out there . . . wish there was


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

agreed 

Thanks for posting it

it is a nice theory and it could be correct or near correct - or maybe I just want it to me


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## poppypatch (May 30, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

It is a personal choice. We do not have any polled animals in the herd by choice. I have known two breeders over the years who had issues with polled animals. Both with Toggenburgs. Also just don't care for that more masculine shape to the head that polled females have.


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

UC Davis is doing a study now on the polled gene being linked to the sex gene.. I haven't heard any updates on how it is coming along but they've been at it for awhile now. I am curious as to what they find... but in the meantime... I'm enjoying my polled to polled breedings.... worst case scenario I get a hermie... still a nice healthy pet for someone. My breeding kids are all guaranteed so if any come up sterile... I'd replace with a new kid.... I don't see how the chance of getting a hermie can be the "thing" so many people are concerned about.... think about all of the other genetic defects that can actually be debilitating. I mean... we all sell wethers and they aren't considered "horrible" LOL Just my 2 cents.... I do definitely find the study very interesting. I can't wait to read the research papers UC Davis comes out with.... but I'm a total nerd for genetics!!!! LMBO.... probably why polled goats intrigue me so... LOL


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

P.S.... is there anyway to move this discussion under the "polled genetics" topic... we all kind of took over this post! :doh:


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## kids-n-peeps (Aug 24, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

my fainters, please post if you ever hear an update on that study - sounds like a good one, at the very least the results would be interesting. Two out of my five does are polled and I personally love the trait :thumb:


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## Dreamchaser (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*

It is amazing to me that even a BRAND SPANKIN new book would still put that info in there, even if it's not a reliable fact. I seem to have read this in every goat book that I have picked up. It makes me wonder if they read it somewhere, and just decided to throw it in there.


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## dvfreelancer (Aug 15, 2009)

*Re: Had a bizarre encounter with a buyer*



> 1/8 of the kids will be normal, horned males.
> 1/8 of the kids will be normal, horned females.
> 2/8 (1/4) of the kids will be normal, polled males.
> 2/8 (1/4) of the kids will be normal, polled females.
> ...


Now it makes sense. That would make the books essentially correct, with a couple caveats. :doh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance

The only thing I remember from that is tortoise shell coloration in cats can only happen in females. You can amaze your friends with that trick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortoiseshell_cat

It's funny that there is more research on goat breeding around the world than here. It's all beef and chicken here.


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## Randi (Apr 22, 2011)

*Re: bizarre encounter with a buyer-discussion on polled bree*



> What a surreal discussion. It's like saying you could practice birth control by trimming your fingernails. Unless you're polling goats by starting at the back and going up through the inside (not recommended by the manufacturer), there's no way that could have any effect on their reproductive capability.


 :ROFL:


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## Sunny Daze (May 18, 2010)

*Re: bizarre encounter with a buyer-discussion on polled bree*

The only hermie I have every had no polled goats in her background (at least as far back as a few generations)! I breed polled to horned although I know some breed polled to polled and swear there isn't an issue....


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: bizarre encounter with a buyer-discussion on polled bree*

I am working on add a few more polled goats to my herd. Now I only have polled does. When I someday get a polled buck I will let you all know if I have any issues. I had heard all the hermapherdite issues. Some breeds of cow are all entirely polled and they continue to produce fine. I guess I will see.


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## TinyHoovesRanch (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: bizarre encounter with a buyer-discussion on polled bree*

I have a polled doe, and im hoping to get a polled buck. I have never heard of any issues here and id like to try to have polled genes. If I get a hermie, oh well, if I dont, great! lol


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