# Injured goat :(



## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Hello to all of you! I hope I'm putting this in the right forum - if not, I'll be happy to move it. So...

I've been doing everything I can to keep my goats off the back deck, but they always find a way... as goats do. The stairs are the bane of my existence - I don't have any ice melt back there because I have no idea what is safe with them.

I got up, went and opened up their housing, brought them their feed, hay, fresh water... They were happy and playful and affectionate. Everything was great this morning; had to open the door with a "hey! knock that off!" because they were playing up and down the stairs (yeah, you know where this is going). 20 minutes later? Flower is on the deck screaming, banging into the door. I knew just by the way he sounded something was up. I thought maybe something had happened to Snow, but no - Flower was panicking because he couldn't stand up! No neck bending, head going backwards or anything - no blindness. He could and can sit sternal if I made him stay down, but every time he tried to get up he just... couldn't stand. Wobbled and couldn't keep his footing. No "knuckling" just... couldn't stand. I carried him in the house, laid him down on the towel and sat on the floor with him (in a puddle of water of course). As a precaution, I gave him thiamine. I called my vet - I told them, look, I know I owe a 600$ bill; I'll pay you whatever you want, just HELP ME. Long story short? Because my vet is petty and unprofessional - someone told her a few months back that I said something I didn't, she then texted me to tell me it was unprofessional of me and accuse me of stupid things (pretty juvenile) - they basically told me well, it's not the bill (though, apparently, someone decided to say I said I wasn't going to pay the bill? Never said that), but according to the vet some things happened and she recommended you find another vet. We can't see you. I'M SORRY WHAT? I got so angry - I told the manager the ridiculous, juvenile, and unprofessional conduct of the vet and nothing. I got so mad that I was pretty rude, which I try not to do. I flat out said, if this is something that could be fatal, and god forbid he dies, that's on you. I hung up on them.

Based on the advice from a friend who owns goats down the road, I called a better clinic and better vet. She immediately, at 7:45 in the morning, even though I'm not an established patient, walked through everything with me. Symptoms of polio didn't really fit - she said it's progressive; I would have seen other signs and he wouldn't just drop suddenly and wouldn't be alert and basically functional. Went through the basics - yes, he's eating and drinking. Yes, peeing and pooping. Yes, sitting sternally by himself, though frequently wanting to get all up in my space for comfort. No fever. She told me he likely hurt his back, but that doesn't mean it won't heal. She told me confinement for 14 days; no play or running, which we both acknowledged is difficult for a 6 months old goat. She said continue to give thiamine for three days JUST to be safe. He wasn't acting drunk; his feet weren't "knuckling;" he just couldn't stand or walk - he would get up and his legs would kind of just... slide out. He was certainly trying to get up and walk. She asked if I had pain reliver/anti-inflammatory. I have banamine and I'm to give it for three days as well. She also said sometimes they can get meningial worms. They haven't had poop tested for a few months, though it's relatively normal. She said she never tells people to worm as a precaution or worm "just because" but advised me to deworm them both today with the valbazen and again in 10 days. Even if the meningial worms are a low possibility, the still ARE one and we need to combat ANY parasite. She said back injuries are tricky - confinement and rest - and they generally heal the way they heal unless I want to spend thousands of dollars on a specialist (which I would do in an instant if I had the money). She said IF a back injury is bad enough and DOES heal, he may have an abnormal gait, but will be totally functional. She spent 20 minutes on the phone with me, talking me through it and reassuring that it would be manageable if we can get him resting. She mentioned a dome crate, but those are EXPENSIVE and I just don't have the money. So... confined. Right now he's confined in the housing. I tried, for safety, to separate Snow and Flower, but... that did not go over well. Flower was freaking out, Snow as freaking out - Flower was going to end up hurting himself worse, so... Now they are both confined. I feel AWFUL. We have the enclosure from when Snow was sick, so my son and I are going to set up heaving duty tarps - one on the "wrong" side of the fence where the wind whips through to protect them; a quite large one over the top and sides, secured down with hooked tent stakes. They won't, unfortunately, be able to roam freely unless i'm out there or until I can figure out how to keep them off these damn stairs.

I hear from you all that I'm a great goat mom, but... I have to say that I'm feeling like a complete failure right now. i keep saying "you should have done better." I just want these guys happy and healthy and I feel like i'm doing EVERYTHING wrong. Has anyone else ever had a goat with a back injury? Did it heal? Was he/she okay?


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

Aw... you are a good goat mom. Goats look for ways to kill themselves.... you know that.... the right patience and treatment and flower will be back on his feet.... sooner than you think.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

If you need to crate him, these are what I use for my ND’s. They work great. Goats are pretty resilient, and keeping him in a deep beded small stall should work as well. If you give banamine watch his temperature because with it being so cold there’s snow, it could drop too low. I’d make a heat lamp or heating pad available for him to lay under or on.
You’re not a bad goat momma, goats look for a way to die, it’s our jobs to stop them. (My vet told me this ages ago) Hang in there!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> If you need to crate him, these are what I use for my ND’s. They work great. Goats are pretty resilient, and keeping him in a deep beded small stall should work as well. If you give banamine watch his temperature because with it being so cold there’s snow, it could drop too low. I’d make a heat lamp or heating pad available for him to lay under or on.
> You’re not a bad goat momma, goats look for a way to die, it’s our jobs to stop them. (My vet told me this ages ago) Hang in there!


Oh god, I didn't know about the temperature thing! We have a heat lamp - just need to find an extension cord long enough. He shares the housing with Snow... I don't want to overheat Snow. I'm super nervous now. I have a bale of straw - I'm going to bring it out and build up a nice thick, bedding for him. The heating pad would be great, but that little brat would find a way to chew and electrocute his damn self lol Not to mention, when they are out, they will literally lie down, munching hay, in the snow WHILE it is snowing. These two are going to kill me. I'm just... scared. Flower imprinted on me when he was a baby and I just... I love Snow, don't get me wrong, but my bond with Flower is so special, and I'm just so scared.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> If you need to crate him, these are what I use for my ND’s. They work great. Goats are pretty resilient, and keeping him in a deep beded small stall should work as well. If you give banamine watch his temperature because with it being so cold there’s snow, it could drop too low. I’d make a heat lamp or heating pad available for him to lay under or on.
> You’re not a bad goat momma, goats look for a way to die, it’s our jobs to stop them. (My vet told me this ages ago) Hang in there!


Also, if I could afford that crate, I'd get it RIGHT NOW. I just spent about 1950$ for my cat. He had cancer before, leg amputated; good for three years and then I found a huge lump. He had to have it removed and it was crazy expensive. I got some help from a GoFundMe. I tried before for my goats and no one was interested, but it's hard times so I'm not judging anyone. I have a dog grate downstairs but it is too small for him now. He wouldn't be able to stand up, which he'd need to do so he can pee.


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

Dont be afraid. They both love you in their own way and will show you it. Flower does it by finding the one way to scare you. You are doing well


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Tanya said:


> Dont be afraid. They both love you in their own way and will show you it. Flower does it by finding the one way to scare you. You are doing well


Thank you. I'd appreciate if he'd stop doing drastic things to get my attention lol. I checked on him and he seems to be doing much better.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Sounds like that Slippery porch attacked him. He may have tweaked his back. Vet advice is sound. Glad you found one you could talk to. Goat do find a way to get in trouble. Like a toddler we follow after them to protect them from themselves. 
The banamine should help along with rest if it's just a little tweak. 
Make sure hay and water are near enough for him


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Sounds like that Slippery porch attacked him. He may have tweaked his back. Vet advice is sound. Glad you found one you could talk to. Goat do find a way to get in trouble. Like a toddler we follow after them to protect them from themselves.
> The banamine should help along with rest if it's just a little tweak.
> Make sure hay and water are near enough for him


He seems to be doing much better than this morning. I don't know if the whole freak out - I mean, he was screaming, trying to get up and just falling down - was because it hurt or if he just panicked because he couldn't stand, but it sure scared the crap out of me! Hay and water are nice and close to him. I'm going out every couple of hours just to check and refresh water with nice, warm water. They suck that up like hoovers! I built up a nice, deep bed of straw for him, in addition to the pine bedding, so he can keep warm. Snow tends to snuggle right up to him, too. I went out with a little treat for both of them - a mini wheat - and he wagged his tail (I love when he does that). He stood and walked, but I made sure I was only about 5 steps from him so I could gauge his gait and stability. And yes, I'm extremely glad I found a vet with significant caprine knowledge and experience.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

andunham said:


> Oh god, I didn't know about the temperature thing! We have a heat lamp - just need to find an extension cord long enough. He shares the housing with Snow... I don't want to overheat Snow. I'm super nervous now. I have a bale of straw - I'm going to bring it out and build up a nice thick, bedding for him. The heating pad would be great, but that little brat would find a way to chew and electrocute his damn self lol Not to mention, when they are out, they will literally lie down, munching hay, in the snow WHILE it is snowing. These two are going to kill me. I'm just... scared. Flower imprinted on me when he was a baby and I just... I love Snow, don't get me wrong, but my bond with Flower is so special, and I'm just so scared.


Im glad he seems better this morning! It’s always painful to watch an animal in pain especially when you’re bonded. If he’s trying to move around it’s a good thing.
yes, banamine will drop a goats temperature so it’s always smart to make sure it’s within normal limits before giving it (101.5-103.5). With the deep bedding and Snow snuggling he should be ok. I suggest when you can getting a crate, they’re really handy. If the areas big enough stick the lamp in a corner where they can move in and out of the heat as needed. There are dog heating pads that are good for chewers, I have one I love, you can also use a pig warming mat.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

I use just plain ordinary no iodine table salt to melt the snow and ice off of the decks and steps here. I either sweep or shovel the snow off, and then sprinkle salt to melt the icy parts. If I know in advance sleet, freezing rain, or snow is due, the salt gets sprinkled down prior to the freezing event. 

Would putting a gate up at the bottom of the steps keep the goats off the deck? I have a gate on the front decking to keep the dogs from leaving the deck while I'm out and about outside. Gates are fairly easy to build, and don't require a lot of lumber. Just add a couple of appropriately sized hinges and a fastener attached to the 4x4 posts at the bottom of the steps to support the gate and you're good to go.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

It is very possible you both panicked. He can freak out if he slipped and then couldn't get up because the porch was Slippery. But it's ok to panic. Better that then brush it off and it be worse.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so very sorry your original vet was so uncaring and the kid was hurt.

Many Vets want to be paid immediately or when the bill is sent out or if they have a due date. 
They will cut you off of any further care if payment is not received or when a client has a history of not paying within a reasonable time frame.

Glad the new vet is knowledgeable and caring.
I disagree with the new vet on one thing, valbezen does not treat meningeal worm.
It is high doses for 5 days of safeguard fenbendazole and a SQ shot of Ivomec
will stop it before it gets to the spinal cord, if it hasn’t reached there. Once it does safeguard must be used. 

With meningeal worm, a fecal will not tell you if they have it or not. 
And the kid would of had rear end weakness symptoms first.

Sounds like a slip and back injury, hope the kid gets better soon.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Im glad he seems better this morning! It’s always painful to watch an animal in pain especially when you’re bonded. If he’s trying to move around it’s a good thing.
> yes, banamine will drop a goats temperature so it’s always smart to make sure it’s within normal limits before giving it (101.5-103.5). With the deep bedding and Snow snuggling he should be ok. I suggest when you can getting a crate, they’re really handy. If the areas big enough stick the lamp in a corner where they can move in and out of the heat as needed. There are dog heating pads that are good for chewers, I have one I love, you can also use a pig warming mat.


Not good now. He's worse. I went out to check on him and he was flat out. couldn't get up at all. I have him in the house, propped up sternally. His eyes keep going back and forth, he can't get up but responds if I pet him. Vet said penicillin, and if he's not better in 12 hours... nothing more i can do. I fell in the shelter and smashed my head and did something to my hand - can't even move my thumb. I carried him across the yard, up the stairs, and had my stepfather help me get him inside. I'm sitting on the floor with him, praying that i can fix this. My heart is breaking.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Get a temp on him. He could be cold - with the possibility of banamine dropping his temp. Do it rectally with a human thermometer. Warm him from the core (belly) up with heating pad, etc. if needed. Its a good place to start.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

goatblessings said:


> Get a temp on him. He could be cold - with the possibility of banamine dropping his temp. Do it rectally with a human thermometer. Warm him from the core (belly) up with heating pad, etc. if needed. Its a good place to start.


temp is 100.5? do i need to get it up a degree?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

goatblessings said:


> Get a temp on him. He could be cold - with the possibility of banamine dropping his temp. Do it rectally with a human thermometer. Warm him from the core (belly) up with heating pad, etc. if needed. Its a good place to start.


no where has penicillin. I've called almost every store here. I'm still trying to find some.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I would try to warm him .. heating pad or microwave a dry bag of beans or rice, wrap In a towel and put under his belly. Ask you vet for the pen you could pick up.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

goatblessings said:


> I would try to warm him .. heating pad or microwave a dry bag of beans or rice, wrap In a towel and put under his belly. Ask you vet for the pen you could pick up.


Heating pad on. What temp do you think i should get him to? vet called - will call me back when she gets out of client appointment.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Needs to be at least 101.5. Normal is 101.5 - 103.5


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Needs to be at least 101.5. Normal is 101.5 - 103.5


Got it. He wants to sleep on and off, but I'm afraid if I don't keep waking him every so often that he's not going to wake up at all.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

goatblessings said:


> I would try to warm him .. heating pad or microwave a dry bag of beans or rice, wrap In a towel and put under his belly. Ask you vet for the pen you could pick up.


vet has none. backordered. only other antibiotic was 100$ and she said it has to be used quickly once mixed or it goes bad, and i wouldn't even use 1/4 of the bottle. She said we're grasping at straws because I cant afford imaging and full panel blood work, so gonna try injectable ivermectin in case it's a parasite that migrated. she said it works faster than oral.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

He was fine when you went out to feed him correct..then you heard the screaming and found him on the porch?


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

This won't help your goats, but regarding ice melt, they sell one for pets- it is safe for paws on cats and dogs. And won't hurt your deck. (Home Depot sells it, "Safe Step".
Sending hopeful thoughts that your goatie gets better soon.


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## Sailormoonismygoat (Nov 29, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Needs to be at least 101.5. Normal is 101.5 - 103.5


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> He was fine when you went out to feed him correct..then you heard the screaming and found him on the porch?


Yes. Totally fine all this time, including this morning, and then screaming all of a sudden and falling all over the place. Couldn't even stand. Got better for a little bit, and then worse again.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I wouldnt think Menegeal worm as it doesn't come on this quick. However polio can after a stressor. I would Give thiamine or b complex to equal 500 mg thiamine. 
Hows he doing now?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> I wouldnt think Menegeal worm as it doesn't come on this quick. However polio can after a stressor. I would Give thiamine or b complex to equal 500 mg thiamine.
> Hows he doing now?


Vet wants me to continue thiamine, as well. He's better than earlier, but still not okay. He can't really stand up on his own - his back legs just go out. He will certainly poop lying down - pooped little blueberries all over the floor - but i don't know if he will pee lying down. If goats won't pee like that, how do I stand him up to give him a chance to pee? He's kind of shaking his head like a person with parkinsons. I can't tell if he can see or not. He looks when I call him, and I can't fully tell when I shine a light in his eyes if they dilate correctly. He won't quite stay still and i don't want to hold his head and cause more stress. He wants hay; I give him small handfuls at a time. He isn't as interested in water. He ate a handful of grain but then turned away from it.
The vet said it doesn't happen often, but there is the chance of a blood clot or stroke. With no access to antibiotics, if it is listeriosis somehow, he has no chance at all. Even the vet doesn't have penicillin. The other antibiotic was over a 100$ which I just... don't have. And that just makes me feel worse.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You're doing all you can. Just keep him warm and calm. Less likely it's listeriosis since that is caused by bacteria where polio is caused by thiamine depletion. Do thiamine every 4 to 6 hours on a 24 hour clock...500 mg worth. Hold off of grain until he's better. Hay and browse is fine. Probiotics to help his flora. 
The vet sounds informed....im glad you have her/him on your team.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> You're doing all you can. Just keep him warm and calm. Less likely it's listeriosis since that is caused by bacteria where polio is caused by thiamine depletion. Do thiamine every 4 to 6 hours on a 24 hour clock...500 mg worth. Hold off of grain until he's better. Hay and browse is fine. Probiotics to help his flora.
> The vet sounds informed....im glad you have her/him on your team.


Thank you. She seems pretty great so far. Do I have to somehow stand him up to pee? I don't know if they will pee lying down. I know he'll poop lying down - he already has lol


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

Just getting to ready this sorry been at work. If he got worse again after stopping the thiamine it sounds like I would agree restarting thiamine is the best option. 

Try to hang in there, get his temp back up and keep up the thiamine.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

DDFN said:


> Just getting to ready this sorry been at work. If he got worse again after stopping the thiamine it sounds like I would agree restarting thiamine is the best option.
> 
> Try to hang in there, get his temp back up and keep up the thiamine.


Thank you. Temp is normal. He's in a crate in the house. Not too close to the heat, but close enough that he can take in what he needs and I can move him away if necessary. He got a lot of thiamine today - i didn't mean to give him so much - but the vet told me to calm down. They pee out what they don't need. She gave me ivermectin to inject, but i'm hesitating. i don't want to cram him full of all these dewormers and then they don't work when we really need them, you know? And you don't have to apologize. i'm grateful for all the replies at any point, the help, the encouragement. This is hard, really hard, because things were going so well and i love them so much. It's killing me


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> I wouldnt think Menegeal worm as it doesn't come on this quick. However polio can after a stressor. I would Give thiamine or b complex to equal 500 mg thiamine.
> Hows he doing now?


I have actual thiamine - how do I know the right dosage? I was in a panic when I talked to the vet and agreed to give it to him but didn't ask how much.


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

No worries. Vitamin b is one that is pretty safe and yes he will pee out the extra unneed thiamine. I know they are like our children and mean the world to us, so it's ok to worry. We just have to keep a level head at times. If the vet thinks you should go ahead and do the ivermectin then going ahead should be fine. The biggest thing I think she is trying to do is address all possible problem options before he slides farther down the recovery scale. 

Don't forget to take a moment for yourself and just breathe. Sit down and pet your goat and take some deep breath.

One thing I learned over the years it's so much easier to work on other people's animals than your own because your animals are your babies. I always have to prepare myself for serious things that pop up by changing my state of mind. Too many years of being a vet tech can harden your soul if you let it. 

Thiamine should be 500 mg a dose. Do you have injectable or oral. It should be in the label the amount.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Oh geez, I’m sorry he isn’t doing better now. You want a total of 500mg every 4-6 hours around the clock. So go according to the label if it’s 100mg per cc then he’d get 5 cc’s


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

Does he weigh about 100 lbs or less? Normally 500mg per 100 lbs so if it is 100mg per 1cc then yes 5 cc.
Ok got to run feed my critters will check back in a bit. Hang in there.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

DDFN said:


> No worries. Vitamin b is one that is pretty safe and yes he will pee out the extra unneed thiamine. I know they are like our children and mean the world to us, so it's ok to worry. We just have to keep a level head at times. If the vet thinks you should go ahead and do the ivermectin then going ahead should be fine. The biggest thing I think she is trying to do is address all possible problem options before he slides farther down the recovery scale.
> 
> Don't forget to take a moment for yourself and just breathe. Sit down and pet your goat and take some deep breath.
> 
> ...


I have the injectable. Had to ask someone if i was reading the label right. It says 500mg/mL so that's 500mg per 1mL, right? I told the vet that I probably gave him way too much but she was telling me a lot of stuff, so I don't know if she said anything to that. He got way more than .6mL... but I trust you all and if you're all confirming he'll just pee it out... then I'm not too worried. I sat on the floor with him this afternoon and he had his head on my leg and I just petted him. He's much calmer when I'm with him. So, I try to stay at least where he can see me. He's still being somewhat vocal - he talks back to me, or talks if he can't see me.

And you're right - other peoples' animals are easier. And, yeah, I don't think I've breathed since 12PM or so when he crashed suddenly. I agree that I have to keep a level head - I feel emotions so strongly that sometimes i forget to stop and think instead of just blind panic. I've slowed myself down now. I'm staying close to him, petting him intermittently. I don't think I'll be sleeping well, but at least I know he's inside, receiving care, and resting (even if he doesn't want to be).


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

If the thiamine is 500mg then yes..1 cc is dose. Every 4 to 6 hours this is dose regardless of weight for polio treatment


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

If he hasn't peeed laying down..then with support. Help him up. Maybe an old towel you can cut a circle out of and place that hole over his penis area...use the rest as a sling to lift him.


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

Yes I agree with happybleats. If the label is 500mg per ml then yes 1 ml(cc) is all you would need each dose. 
Thiamine is a water soluble vitamin so the excess is peed out of the body. If you were giving a fat soluble vitamin it would be different because those are then stored in your cells and not flushed out as easily (like vitamin A and D)

Trust me when it's your babies it's harder and it's really important to take some time to collect yourself. I have been there and done that before. Yet other times I walked into a friends barn to a horse trauma and it was just like nothing was happening and you can think as clearly as a stress free day. Other times when it's your baby and it's like you forget where your medications are kept (in the same big yellow emergency box it's always been in) or looking for the stethoscope that is hanging around your neck. Life happens and there is a bunch of very helpful knowledgeable people here always willing to help.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> If he hasn't peeed laying down..then with support. Help him up. Maybe an old towel you can cut a circle out of and place that hole over his penis area...use the rest as a sling to lift him.


Got him to stand for at least a few minutes, but with help. It is NOT easy. He’s heavier than he looks. I didn’t think 60 pounds felt that heavy! My son is helping me in a little bit to get him up again to see if he will pee. I have water ready for him and present it to him, but he doesn’t seem too interested. I don’t even have Gatorade or I’d try to entice him with that. All I have are capri suns and I’m not going to give him that.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Try warm water over the Capri sun's. Can add a splash of acv snd or molasses. Just play around with it see what he likes.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

See if some lukewarm water would appeal to him. Don't know why, but goats seem to like lukewarm water in the cooler months.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Try warm water over the Capri sun's. Can add a splash of acv snd or molasses. Just play around with it see what he likes.





NigerianNewbie said:


> See if some lukewarm water would appeal to him. Don't know why, but goats seem to like lukewarm water in the cooler months.


I did some warm water and ACV. I forgot how much Flower likes it - he used to try and drink it out of the bottle when I added it to their water before. Snow hates it. BUT, he slurped down at least a cup, maybe a cup and a half in like 2 minutes. I stayed right with him; don’t want him to choke. He ate more hay. I offered more water a couple times, but he was clearly sated for now. I turned the lights off and he’s snoozing on and off.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

DDFN said:


> Yes I agree with happybleats. If the label is 500mg per ml then yes 1 ml(cc) is all you would need each dose.
> Thiamine is a water soluble vitamin so the excess is peed out of the body. If you were giving a fat soluble vitamin it would be different because those are then stored in your cells and not flushed out as easily (like vitamin A and D)
> 
> Trust me when it's your babies it's harder and it's really important to take some time to collect yourself. I have been there and done that before. Yet other times I walked into a friends barn to a horse trauma and it was just like nothing was happening and you can think as clearly as a stress free day. Other times when it's your baby and it's like you forget where your medications are kept (in the same big yellow emergency box it's always been in) or looking for the stethoscope that is hanging around your neck. Life happens and there is a bunch of very helpful knowledgeable people here always willing to help.


It is extremely comforting, in its own way, knowing that you understand this. I can keep calm when it’s someone else’s, but when they are my babies… I just lose it. While he’s napping I’m just sitting down, having some ginger ale. I never ate today, but my stomach is seriously upset so I ginger ale is a good start. When my tummy starts to feel better I’ll have a couple bananas.

I’m icing my hand and my head. When I saw him in the housing today lying flat out like that and crying… I just reacted. I grabbed him, and wow, heavier than I thought. I tripped and slammed my head into a wood beam (lovely, bruised, gigantic lump) and landed wrong on my hand so I wouldn’t hurt him. Hand is swollen and can’t use my thumb much (thankfully we can dictate text these days). So, I’m taking this moment, just as you suggested, to breathe and collect myself. I’m cautiously optimistic right now.


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

andunham said:


> It is extremely comforting, in its own way, knowing that you understand this. I can keep calm when it’s someone else’s, but when they are my babies… I just lose it. While he’s napping I’m just sitting down, having some ginger ale. I never ate today, but my stomach is seriously upset so I ginger ale is a good start. When my tummy starts to feel better I’ll have a couple bananas.
> 
> I’m icing my hand and my head. When I saw him in the housing today lying flat out like that and crying… I just reacted. I grabbed him, and wow, heavier than I thought. I tripped and slammed my head into a wood beam (lovely, bruised, gigantic lump) and landed wrong on my hand so I wouldn’t hurt him. Hand is swollen and can’t use my thumb much (thankfully we can dictate text these days). So, I’m taking this moment, just as you suggested, to breathe and collect myself. I’m cautiously optimistic right now.


You are welcome. We are all human even when we want to be the cool calm and steady person sometimes things alter that state of mind making it harder to maintain. 

Do take the time to ice your own injuries. 

Sounds like you got the water and additives figured out. If you need to light karo syrup is a good mixture for warm water and probiotics or even vitamin c powder. It gives the normal water some extra interest in some cases. Karo has been a life saver so many times before.
Best wishes !


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All great advice.

Sorry you were hurt. 

Hope he will improve.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

@andunham. How's your little man today?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> @andunham. How's your little man today?


Thank you for asking about him! He isn't worse, so that is a plus. He eats hay, drinks, he was eating minerals today, poops and pees a lot. We had him up and standing for 5+ minutes, moved around a little with my son while i cleaned up the wet stuff in the crate and then gave him a sort of sponge bath to get pee off of him. He's like the little engine that could. I don't see huge improvement but I definitely see he wants to be up and moving, even if he can't actually do it without mostly supporting him. A friend of mine is letting me borrow her XL dog crate to see if it is a better fit for Flower to give him more room to move around.

The injections are hard. giving him so many a day sucks in and of itself but i have to try and do it alone when my son isn't around and Flower, like most i would think, does NOT cooperate with shots. i'm afraid of hurting him or myself. Harder when I have a brace on my hand to immobilize my thumb.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Aw, I’m sorry you’re both so miserable. I hope he keeps making progress even if it’s slowly.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Aw, I’m sorry you’re both so miserable. I hope he keeps making progress even if it’s slowly.


I appreciate that. It’s not even that I’m miserable because of him, because that is never the case, I feel miserable because I know he feels terrible. I was reading up on treatment and how long it takes to see progress, and I read that some goats can’t even stand up until they’ve had treatment for five days, so what I’ve been doing under the guidance of my vet is giving him the thiamine as well as banamine, which will help with any inflammation, and each time he seems just a little bit better. I tried something today and held food in my hand for him at the advice of the vet to see if he would stand, he was in the crate but it was open so that he had room to stand up and stick his head out if he wanted to which he did. He is very very wobbly, and he absolutely cannot walk without help, but I’m going to take this as a win. I just want him to be OK. I can deal with a concussion and an injured hand lol I’m just glad I have all of you to remind me to keep looking up even when I’m sure everything is going down . This time yesterday I didn’t think that flower would be alive at this time today. But he is. He’s noisy and stubborn like always lol and he is eating and drinking and pooping in peeing so I have to take that as a good sign


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I’m glad the vets giving you what you need to help him! That’s great, you have a keeper vet.
A small victory is a victory nonetheless! Just keep in mind there can be ups and downs but as long as you’re fighting together you can beat this. 
Great job, I know it’s tough but so are you! Hang in there😊


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> I’m glad the vets giving you what you need to help him! That’s great, you have a keeper vet.
> A small victory is a victory nonetheless! Just keep in mind there can be ups and downs but as long as you’re fighting together you can beat this.
> Great job, I know it’s tough but so are you! Hang in there😊


I needed to hear that today. It’s been one cascade after another, you know? But I’m doing my best and it always feels good when people here tell me that I am. It is really hard right now but I’m going to keep doing all of the things I need to for as long as I possibly can and get him better


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

🙏


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

How’s he doing?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> How’s he doing?


Still hanging in there with me. He can stand up and lie down on his own now. He’s wobbly when he’s up, and needs some help walking. On his own he sort of walks in a circle, so I have to guide him. Kind of like turn s his head to the side weird and his eyes are still moving back and forth but not as fast. Eating and drinking, and pooping and peeing. Just praying he gets better still.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Still doing thiamine? Glad he's showing improvement


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Still doing thiamine? Glad he's showing improvement


Oh yes, Thiamine every day, multiple times a day. When my son gets home we are going to put his harness on and let him walk a little outside. He'll have more space to really wander, but with both of us right there he won't have the chance to get hurt or anything. I told Snow when he was sick that he did not have permission to go anywhere, and I told Flower the same. I think Flower will make it, I just don't know what level of recovery is expected. Will he ever be normal again? or at least be able to function independently?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

He has a good chance with proper care and PT. 🤞


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> He has a good chance with proper care and PT. 🤞


Thank you. I was literally doing "Goat PT" this morning lol. I was coaxing him forward slowly with literally 2 pieces of grain. Once he gets going he does ok - i try to help him keep his head up right instead of tilting it. I'm REALLY trying, so I'm praying as much as anyone that it's enough and he starts really making strides.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

🙏


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> 🙏


Keep ‘em coming. I’m seeing improvements, even many little ones, every day and I’m grateful. I was sure that Monday, after his second time being down, that I wouldn’t even have him by the next morning, but his fight, my fight, and love/support and fight from all of you is winning out ♥


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Amen, will do that.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> Amen, will do that.


♥♥♥


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I’m so glad he’s continuing to improve! Yay. You’re doing great. Don’t get discouraged, it’s a long road to full recovery but at least he’s headed in the right direction.☺


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> I’m so glad he’s continuing to improve! Yay. You’re doing great. Don’t get discouraged, it’s a long road to full recovery but at least he’s headed in the right direction.☺


He’s been eating his hay like a champ and now he seems disinterested or like he suddenly can’t chew. We took a walk outside and he ate some grass easily. So, I’m confused 😖


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

andunham said:


> He’s been eating his hay like a champ and now he seems disinterested or like he suddenly can’t chew. We took a walk outside and he ate some grass easily. So, I’m confused 😖


It might be he was in the mood for some fresh greens instead of dry hay. Try giving him some more fresh browse, like pine branches or leaves. He‘ll go back to hay but everyone needs a change of pace. If he’s still off hay in the morning I’d give it more thought but for now try fresh stuff that he’s interested in.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> It might be he was in the mood for some fresh greens instead of dry hay. Try giving him some more fresh browse, like pine branches or leaves. He‘ll go back to hay but everyone needs a change of pace. If he’s still off hay in the morning I’d give it more thought but for now try fresh stuff that he’s interested in.


Thank you. I get so nervous. Ugh, that has to be so annoying for you all. I gave him his ivermectin tonight, SubQ, and I couldn’t get it all in him! I have .2cc left to give him, but he started freaking out so bad he was going to hurt himself or us, or both.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

It’s what we’re here for...not ever annoyed lol. 😊
How much total did he get? You can give that last bit orally instead of poking him. It’s a tiny amount so it won’t hurt. Poor baby is probably sick of getting jabbed. Are you rotating injection sites? That helps.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> It’s what we’re here for...not ever annoyed lol. 😊
> How much total did he get? You can give that last bit orally instead of poking him. It’s a tiny amount so it won’t hurt. Poor baby is probably sick of getting jabbed. Are you rotating injection sites? That helps.


I legit just went outside, in the dark, with a flashlight and boots, and picked a BUNCH of fresh browse and grass… that little brat is eating it like he’s never had food! Thank you for that suggestion! I’ll do it again if he needs me to. For the ivermectin I got .8 cc out of 1cc into him. It won’t hurt him to do it orally? I’ll do it that way. I’m rotating yes; it’s just so hard because I feel like I’m not getting enough skin to make a loose enough tent. I think I hurt him this time and I feel like a total piece of crap. I wish thiamine came orally, just so I could rotate injections and oral dosing 😢 thank you again for this. Clearly he has no issue eating, he is just sick of hay! I have some evergreen bushes - I’ll cut some branches off of it and bring them to him. He got some crunchy dried leaves (only like 4 because I read somewhere that oak leaves can hurt them).


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Yep, just give him that last bit orally, as long as he gets the full dose it’s ok. Ivermectin stings a lot so yes it hurt but he’s probably sick of being a pin cushion too. Don’t feel bad ...you’re doing fine.
I’m glad he’s eating...stinker😉


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> I have some evergreen bushes - I’ll cut some branches off of it and bring them to him.


What type of evergreen bush are you going to cut branches from? Holly, spruce, juniper, azalea, rhododendron, privet, ...


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> What type of evergreen bush are you going to cut branches from? Holly, spruce, juniper, azalea, rhododendron, privet, ...


Funny you should ask… I never cut any because I don’t know what they are. We have huge pine trees in the back that they always eat, but I’ve never given them anything from the front. I knew there were certain things they couldn’t eat so I played it safe and didn’t give him any. I think he’s ready to be outdoors again, though. He’s been in here yelling at me, and when I went outside to care for Snow I could hear him yelling all the way across the yard lol


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Great! Let him out with his buddy for a while. I’m sure it’ll do them both some good. Keep checking on him and keep up the thiamine for at least another 24*. It’s always best to do it for 24-48 hours after the last noticed symptoms.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Great! Let him out with his buddy for a while. I’m sure it’ll do them both some good. Keep checking on him and keep up the thiamine for at least another 24*. It’s always best to do it for 24-48 hours after the last noticed symptoms.


Will he be able to keep himself warm? Do I let him out in intervals? I’m so unsure on how to go about this because we are finally going UP. I will definitely continue thiamine. It’s about 64* in the house; about 30-33* outside. Is this temperature difference going to hurt him? He’s looking at me right now, talking, and I swear he’s just telling me to let him out lol I just don’t know if I should put them in the 8x16 enclosure for like an hour and then bring him back in the house or let him stay with his brother. Just nervous.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

You can let him out and see how he does. I’d start in a smaller enclosure with a shelter and check him every hour or so. Yes, watch his temp but he’ll have to start adjusting to being out again. You could put up a heat lamp for him to go under if he’s cold but take it slowly and watch carefully.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> You can let him out and see how he does. I’d start in a smaller enclosure with a shelter and check him every hour or so. Yes, watch his temp but he’ll have to start adjusting to being out again. You could put up a heat lamp for him to go under if he’s cold but take it slowly and watch carefully.


We are out in the enclosure together. Snow is outside of it. He’s got his fur all fluffed to stay warm. They wanted to play SO bad but MAN, they were trying to smash each other’s head lol. He’s still wobbly; back legs are much weaker. That could be some muscle loss from being locked up for almost six days, right? Now that he’s truly getting better, what dose of thiamine should I give him, and how frequently? This morning he REFUSED to be poked. I have B-complex gel/paste w/100mg thiamine per 5cc- he hated me at that moment but I got it into him. I figured it’s better than nothing. When we go in I’m going to put a sheet up between him and the heat source so he doesn’t get a huge temp difference too fast. Getting an outdoor extension cord as well so we can plug in a heat lamp. I’m too nervous to let him sleep in the barn tonight. I know the first day his temperature dropped too low and I’m not sure if he’s capable of really regulating it yet. I have a way to separate them when he’s ready to go back in the barn at night. They can still live close to each other through the gate to share body heat, if they want to, and where they bed down I’m going to put a nice thick bed of straw. I’m also going to change the side that they sleep on, because I was in there this morning and I found a pretty hefty draft where they usually sleep. I’ll be fixing it in the next day but I’ll need my son to help, not only because it’s easier with two people, but he is 5 inches taller than me at 13 lol


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

He needs the full dose of thiamine for at least 24-36 hours More. Gel is pretty ineffective in goats because they metabolize it too fast. He’ll get less wobbly as he uses his muscles. Make sure he has access to lots of hay and browse so his rumen keeps him warm. You can also put out warm water with a drop of molasses in it. They’ll love that. Draft free is important. Sounds like you’re on the right track. Great job! 😁
Why separate them? They’ll figure it out again quickly.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> He needs the full dose of thiamine for at least 24-36 hours More. Gel is pretty ineffective in goats because they metabolize it too fast. He’ll get less wobbly as he uses his muscles. Make sure he has access to lots of hay and browse so his rumen keeps him warm. You can also put out warm water with a drop of molasses in it. They’ll love that. Draft free is important. Sounds like you’re on the right track. Great job! 😁
> Why separate them? They’ll figure it out again quickly.


I only separated them because I was afraid Flower would get hurt. If it isn't necessary, I'm totally fine with them playing  

So, continue 500mg thiamine for the next 24-36 hours, got it! It takes two people to hold him while I poke, so when mom gets home she, Sam, and I will get it done. I've found that if we use a towel as a sort of sling, gently, and a head collar it's a LITTLE easier, but I start to get really nervous when he starts whipping his head around - he's tethered with that halter on and I worry he's going to hurt his neck or something.

I have hay readily available at all times for both of them - inside their shelter and in a couple different places outside where they tend to hang out. I cut a couple of small boughs of one of the pine trees in back (made sure they are 150% NOT yew trees; I think they are long leaf pine, plenty of research and it says it's safe for them), and they both love these couple of areas with this really fine grass, so he likes to hang there and just eat and eat lol. After the ivermectin his poop has gone back to pellets - he never showed any signs of worms! His poop JUST got soft/dog turd yesterday and I figured it was because I gave him some alfalfa, but clearly he had something I wasn't aware of! I wonder if I should ask the vet if I should do the same for Snow - I don't THINK he needs it, his poop is normal, but so was Flower's so... I'll ask her. She's been excellent so far. It


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

When a goat has been sick, it causes stress and possible worms and/or cocci. Getting a fecal is wise to keep tabs on things. 

Goats who have been penned up for a long time when they are I’ll, seem to get depressed and won’t eat as much in the pen.
They love the time out, it creates happiness and they feel alive again.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> When a goat has been sick, it causes stress and possible worms and/or cocci. Getting a fecal is wise to keep tabs on things.
> 
> Goats who have been penned up for a long time when they are I’ll, seem to get depressed and won’t eat as much in the pen.
> They love the time out, it creates happiness and they feel alive again.


Thank you! I'll definitely get him back outside (and keep an eye on his temp); he was DEFINITELY happy outside - he was trying to jump and kick but didn't quite have the balance - I held on to a different harness that I put on him, it goes around the chest, so he could at least TRY to jump without hurting himself lol.

He's been chowing hay the whole time he's been sick, so I'm hoping it's helped his rumen so he can keep himself warm. It amazes me how goats keep themselves warm in the cold weather. We hit 19 degrees one night and they came bouncing right out like nothing when I opened the shelter door in the morning. Then, they stayed outside for HOURS, even when it started snowing like crazy. I can tell when the snow builds up on Flower's back (I heard that's okay, just that they can't get wet all the way down to the skin), but it's hard to tell with Snowball. I end up getting nervous and putting them in until the snow either stops or calms down. I know they can survive just fine in cold weather if they are healthy, but I'm definitely not used to an animal that's relatively okay out in the cold!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You will have to keep an eye on them, if they stand out in the weather and shiver, are hunched, get them in and feed inside.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> You will have to keep an eye on them, if they stand out in the weather and shiver, are hunched, get them in and feed inside.


Definitely. He’s out in the shelter with his brother now. I have like 2-3 inches of straw plus some pine shavings. Drafts fixed. He’s wobbly so I’m still worried about balance or muscle loss after being confined for most of 6 days. Still gave thiamine today. He was outside all day and did well. Just really nervous about him being in the shelter tonight. I mean… how often should I check on him?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

andunham said:


> Definitely. He’s out in the shelter with his brother now. I have like 2-3 inches of straw plus some pine shavings. Drafts fixed. He’s wobbly so I’m still worried about balance or muscle loss after being confined for most of 6 days. Still gave thiamine today. He was outside all day and did well. Just really nervous about him being in the shelter tonight. I mean… how often should I check on him?


Every few hours will be enough to check him. Is he still eating well? His strength will come back, it takes time. If you’re still really worried you can put a heat lamp in a corner so he can move in and out of the warmth as needed.
sounds like things are looking up though...that’s great news!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Every few hours will be enough to check him. Is he still eating well? His strength will come back, it takes time. If you’re still really worried you can put a heat lamp in a corner so he can move in and out of the warmth as needed.
> sounds like things are looking up though...that’s great news!


He seemed well last night! They have a FULL hay tote ( screwed it into the wall so they can’t crap in it 😆), water, and minerals. I put so much straw in there, too! For some reason they like to eat that lol. Thankfully, it didn’t get below 35* last night. It’s in the 50s today. Been getting great advice here, so it’s been 48 hours since symptoms; gave him his injection yesterday. Should I be giving him a maintenance dose like once a week? I found some information that said I should for 2 weeks, but I just wanted to see if any of you did/do that.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Watch for any symptoms to pop back up closely for the next 3-5 days. Personally, I give 3x a week the first week after, 2x a week the second week after then 1 a week for two more weeks, they aren’t hurt by the extra b and it helps long term recovery.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Watch for any symptoms to pop back up closely for the next 3-5 days. Personally, I give 3x a week the first week after, 2x a week the second week after then 1 a week for two more weeks, they aren’t hurt by the extra b and it helps long term recovery.


Definitely doing that. Like we said, he’s going to need time to gain strength back, but he made me nervous when he was trying to jump and play like nothing happened and went a little sideways and completely fell over. If it didn’t make me so nervous it would have been funny. He did well overnight in the shelter with his brother. Lots of hay was eaten! Gave warm water just a bit ago and they drank up. I only let it get a certain level of cold before I replace it, even if it means I come out 5 times lol if I worry about him walking a LITTLE crooked (no turned head or circling) would I be ok to give him the injection a few hours from now? I literally have no one to help hold him still and as soon as I get near him with it, it’s like he knows! He flips out if I try to hold him still - I don’t want to stab the needle right into him.

I thought of something. Polio can be caused by too much grain, not enough hay/browse, roughage, right? What if Flower was being a bully and stealing a lot of Snow’s grain? If that could be the case, it means Snow was eating a lot more grain this last week. Should I give him a dose, too, just to be safe?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Polioencephalomalacia (polio) in ruminants is caused by a *thiamine deficiency and/or sulfur toxicity*. Other causes include improper feeding, feeding too much grain, or anything that disrupts the health and well being of rumen microbes, such as chronic or acute acidosis or indigestion.

So yes, too much grain isn’t good.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> Polioencephalomalacia (polio) in ruminants is caused by a *thiamine deficiency and/or sulfur toxicity*. Other causes include improper feeding, feeding too much grain, or anything that disrupts the health and well being of rumen microbes, such as chronic or acute acidosis or indigestion.
> 
> So yes, too much grain isn’t good.


I bet that’s what the little brat was doing. Since he’s gone back out I’m giving him only a little grain and I specifically separate them if I can’t stand there and watch him.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


>


Flower seems to be a lot better - still a little crooked when he runs and jumps, which ends in him falling over 3 times out of 5, but today I've only seen him stumble twice in almost 3 hours. He's running and playing, so I'm hoping some of his issue was just needing to exercise more to get his strength up. Chowing on timothy hay like a boss and drinking normally - as long as the water is warm  Continuing injections every other day, 1cc, and then 3x a week next week, 2x a week after that, and 1x the week after that  I got some advice that they're old enough for me to start winding down their grain and stop it. They are really good hay eaters, and now that I know alfalfa in moderation isn't going to kill them with urinary calculi, general consensus with advice is they can have some or alfalfa pellets  I'm just PRAYING things keep going UP now.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Do you know where i can get C&D antitoxin? I looked at TSC and they have nothing. Treating bloat won't get me anywhere if he needs the antitoxin (I've been reading your book


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

andunham said:


> Do you know where i can get C&D antitoxin? I looked at TSC and they have nothing. Treating bloat won't get me anywhere if he needs the antitoxin (I've been reading your book


I always order mine from Jeffers but I found some at Russell’s feed the other day. You might check the online stores for the CD antitoxin.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> I always order mine from Jeffers but I found some at Russell’s feed the other day. You might check the online stores for the CD antitoxin.


That's where I JUST checked  They ship it. I know that just because he's possibly having a bloat issue doesn't mean that the has it, but I have read that it is the first step to be safe.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> I always order mine from Jeffers but I found some at Russell’s feed the other day. You might check the online stores for the CD antitoxin.


Nevermind - now I can't find it! I'm checking other stores online. Gotta have it somewhere, right?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Now is the time to build your goat first aid box. Soon things will be so regulated it will be hard to get stuff you need without a vet visit.
Keep on hand 
CD and Tetnus antitoxins
A broad spectrum antibiotic
and a few other items.
If you’re getting things shipped make sure it’s not just one item to make the cost worth it 😉


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

andunham said:


> Nevermind - now I can't find it! I'm checking other stores online. Gotta have it somewhere, right?


Try calling. Sometimes the website is inacurate ....


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Try calling. Sometimes the website is inacurate ....


That I can do. I also found it on ValleyVetSupply. It's overnight shipping...


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Now is the time to build your goat first aid box. Soon things will be so regulated it will be hard to get stuff you need without a vet visit.
> Keep on hand
> CD and Tetnus antitoxins
> A broad spectrum antibiotic
> ...


I literally just said to someone that my next step is an emergency kit! I’m hoping to have it all put together by the end of the month. These boys like to scare the crap out of me, so yeah, first aid kit is a top priority ☺


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

andunham said:


> That I can do. I also found it on ValleyVetSupply. It's overnight shipping...


Do you recommend any specific brands for antitoxins? Lot of them have livestock but don’t include goats in the label.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I use Colorado serum company. Just be sure it says CD Antitoxin and you should be fine. It won't have goats on there I don't believe


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> I use Colorado serum company. Just be sure it says CD Antitoxin and you should be fine. It won't have goats on there I don't believe


Thank you! I’m putting together a “shopping list.”


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Yep, I also use Colorado serum.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

@Jessica84 @happybleats @toth boer goats
OP pm’d me that her goat is starting to exhibit signs again
I’m trying to copy/paste post. I can’t get it to though.
I suggested starting polio/listeriosis treatments again, removing all grain and browse, hay and water only.

Any suggestions would be a huge help, she’s very upset and worried about him.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Tell her to post on her thread. We need all symptoms and temp


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

ksalvagno said:


> Tell her to post on her thread. We need all symptoms and temp


She is going to. I already asked.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Good suggestion goofy. If she is having trouble figuring out how to post let us know and we will see if we can help her out.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Jessica84 said:


> Good suggestion goofy. If she is having trouble figuring out how to post let us know and we will see if we can help her out.


I updated this post or do you need me to reply to it?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

andunham said:


> I updated this post or do you need me to reply to it?


Tell everyone what’s happening now and his current temp and symptoms he’s showing please on this thread. Just reply yes.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

andunham said:


> Hello to all of you! I hope I'm putting this in the right forum - if not, I'll be happy to move it. So...
> 
> I've been doing everything I can to keep my goats off the back deck, but they always find a way... as goats do. The stairs are the bane of my existence - I don't have any ice melt back there because I have no idea what is safe with them.
> 
> ...


UPDATE: Flower was doing great this week. Was giving small amounts of grain to him and to Snow. Here and there he walked "crooked" but today I saw real symptoms of polio again! Looking all around, kind of in a circle by looking up to the sky and back down around to the ground. He was turning in circles. I IMMEDIATELY recognized it - I brought him in and confined him where I can watch him. Started treatment again (have been giving thiamine every other day since he was better); temp was 104.5, which last time she told me to give .6 banamine, so I did. Giving warm water and hay only. He seems a little better now, but that is what happened last time and then he went down hard. I don't know what else to do. I am almost out of thiamine - the on-call vet said he wasn't as knowledgeable as the vet I usually see, so told me to follow the same regimen and check in with her Monday. Per the vet, they have both been dewormed. Valbazen and Flower had injectable ivermectin. I've read some people give antibiotics, but I have no access to penicillin - even the vet is back ordered. I do have access to liquimycin and/or Tylan 50mg, 100 mL bottle. His poop is TOTALLY normal - little blueberries - no diarrhea whatsoever. Interested in his hay, a little picky about his water, but I can try different things. IF I run out of thiamine (i don't THINK I will) I have durvet high level b complex with 100mg thiamine per 1cc, so I can give him 5cc until I get more thiamine.

I don't know what to do - I'm giving him spring water only, no well water, and doing the same for Snow to be safe. Snow is doing well, so I just don't understand why this is happening to Flower again. I've been doing everything I'm supposed to. ANY help and/or suggestions will be useful.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Was he 100% better when you started backing off the thiamine? You can buy B Complex at TSC. Just make sure it has 100mg of thiamine in it.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Was he 100% better when you started backing off the thiamine? You can buy B Complex at TSC. Just make sure it has 100mg of thiamine in it.


He was still wobbly, but we thought it was from being confined for nearly a week, and that once he got some exercise he'd be better. I had been giving thiamine 1x a day - the full 500mg (1cc). For a few days he was GREAT - he was running again, jumping, though jumping sometimes he almost fell over. Then he showed a little more strength, wanted eat green stuff other than hay, drinking water. Then today... I saw those symptoms. It scares the crap out of me because I immediately think, "what am I doing wrong?" The high level b complex has 100mg thiamine per 1cc.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I’d start giving it every 6 hours around the clock Again. It really sounds like he needs aggressive treatment to kick this thing.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Right, so you would give 5cc of the B Complex. I'm not sure what your vet told you to do. But you need to do the thiamine every 6 hours around the clock until after 3 days of being perfectly normal. Then you can start backing off.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Right, so you would give 5cc of the B Complex. I'm not sure what your vet told you to do. But you need to do the thiamine every 6 hours around the clock until after 3 days of being perfectly normal. Then you can start backing off.


Thank you so much. I’m working on figuring out injections - after Tuesday I can’t give them because of my surgery on my hand, but thankfully have someone who knows how to. The restraining technique with the fence works REALLY well. Just need to stand next to his head. He still hates it, but got treated with alfalfa after.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> I’d start giving it every 6 hours around the clock Again. It really sounds like he needs aggressive treatment to kick this thing.


On it! I’m going to do everything and anything he needs.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good advice. Sounds like he relapsed from reducing treatment too soon. It can happen. You got this!!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Good advice. Sounds like he relapsed from reducing treatment too soon. It can happen. You got this!!


I won't make that mistake twice! One injection, within an hour he was improved. Going to keep going just like I should. I'm not going to let him down, even if I have to pay my stepfather to do the injections. My sister is a vet tech who has worked with large animals, and works on her fiances dairy farm, so she's going to do it a couple days this week and I don't have to pay her. I wondered something - if I can't get someone to help me at 2AM does giving him a double dose do anything at all? Just want to make sure he gets what he needs, when he needs it. Not letting all this good advice and help go to waste! He's lying down resting right now, but at least he's chewing his cud again, though 100% mad at me.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

While doing treatment around the clock is best, I dont think missing the 2 am shot session will be a huge issue if he's doing pretty good already.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> While doing treatment around the clock is best, I dont think missing the 2 am shot session will be a huge issue if he's doing pretty good already.


He’s pretty great right now. Definitely not going to get complacent, though. I’m writing up an injection schedule for Tuesday on.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Just saw this thread update. So sorry Flower has relapsed. Hang in there and it's good you've got some people willing to step up and help with the injection schedule. Hugs for the both of you.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Just saw this thread update. So sorry Flower has relapsed. Hang in there and it's good you've got some people willing to step up and help with the injection schedule. Hugs for the both of you.


Thank you so much 🧡 I'll get him better. He knows I love him.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

So happy to hear Flower is doing better. Those goats learn real fast how to put up a fight over injections. As someone who has had to treat for polio it’s hard work when they start feeling better! I am happy you have a plan to keep on top of it, great job!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Yay Flower, I was so glad to see he’s doing better! You both got this ...keep it up😃


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Jessica84 said:


> So happy to hear Flower is doing better. Those goats learn real fast how to put up a fight over injections. As someone who has had to treat for polio it’s hard work when they start feeling better! I am happy you have a plan to keep on top of it, great job!


They sure do. I did not think an 8 month old goat could be THAT strong!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Yay Flower, I was so glad to see he’s doing better! You both got this ...keep it up😃


Thank you <3 I just want him to be okay and go back to his normal goat life


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Hope he will be ok.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> Hope he will be ok.


I’m determined to make it so. He’s been great all day but he JUST started doing the head thing, like he looks around in a circle from sky to ground. Walking pretty good as far as I see. I realized someone here told me hay and water only and I was rushing to the store so I could get back. I forgot about it and he was grazing! I feel terrible! It’s super windy, but sunny and it’s 43 out. He’s not acting cold - no shivers or hunching. But chowing on hay - he lies down to eat after a while. After last time, I’m terrified to close him in their housing…


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

andunham said:


> I’m determined to make it so. He’s been great all day but he JUST started doing the head thing, like he looks around in a circle from sky to ground. Walking pretty good as far as I see. I realized someone here told me hay and water only and I was rushing to the store so I could get back. I forgot about it and he was grazing! I feel terrible! It’s super windy, but sunny and it’s 43 out. He’s not acting cold - no shivers or hunching. But chowing on hay - he lies down to eat after a while. After last time, I’m terrified to close him in their housing…


Browse is fine, it’s his natural food. My goats will lay in their feeders and eat the stuff around them...they’re silly creatures. Just make sure he gets his thiamine and it’s ok.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Browse is fine, it’s his natural food. My goats will lay in their feeders and eat the stuff around them...they’re silly creatures. Just make sure he gets his thiamine and it’s ok.


I’m sorry for being neurotic. I’m just… terrified. I gave the high level b complex this time, made sure I gave 5cc to give him 500mg thiamine. I swear, I’m going to worry ALL NIGHT once they’re in at dark 😫


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How are things?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> How are things?


He seems better. Stable, I think. He is supposed to have his shot in 30 minutes, but the person who was supposed to help me isn’t home. I don’t want to be late giving it to him but I’m not quite sure what to do.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> How are things?


I asked the vet and she said 2 hours should be alright, but if it made me feel a little better I could give him b-complex orally. She said it breaks down way faster, but he'd at least get some in his system. I just felt better doing that. He'll get his shot at 3:30ish, so I feel a little more comfortable. Shot went easier today - I had tried putting certain things in front of him to eat that distracted and it never worked before... well, it worked this morning. I gave him less than 1/2 cup of grain with probio powder on it. Man... he got poked and didn't even make a sound. He got a little extra alfalfa hay today, too. I think that should be alright. He had maybe a cup of it? i'm trying not to wing it into their diets too quickly since i've rarely given it before recently.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

With goats, they need thiamine and b vitamins injected to work. 

Can you tie the goat snug to a post and tie one back leg up to a fence, if you are alone?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> With goats, they need thiamine and b vitamins injected to work.
> 
> Can you tie the goat snug to a post and tie one back leg up to a fence, if you are alone?


I managed to get it into him subQ. He then got it agsin 6hrs later. I just wish the symptoms would stop… that he would really show that improvement he did before. The main symptom is that head/neck thing. He will run when he wants, but does move a little slower otherwise.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How long have you been treating the goat?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Hope your surgery went well today and you’re not too uncomfortable!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> How long have you been treating the goat?


Since symptoms restarted it would be last friday


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Still not long ago, so hopefully she will snap out of it soon.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Hope your surgery went well today and you’re not too uncomfortable!


thank you. it went well. nerve block is completely gone now so having some real pain. my son and step father have been giving Flower shots, but still nervous because it's not ME, if that makes sense


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Sorry you’re hurting. Nerve blocks don’t ever last long enough it seems. I’m glad it went well though. It makes perfect sense you want to do it yourself. Just be grateful you have help so your boy continues to heal. Hang in there!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

🙏


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> Sorry you’re hurting. Nerve blocks don’t ever last long enough it seems. I’m glad it went well though. It makes perfect sense you want to do it yourself. Just be grateful you have help so your boy continues to heal. Hang in there!


Just letting you know he seems to be pretty stable. I’m going to ask the vet about the head/neck thing. Occasionally, when he gets really excited and starts running and jumping he gets a little unsteady, he fell over once but got right back up. I just want to ask her if these are things that will never go away. Or if she thinks any kind of meningeal worms are still a possibility. I think you all said it’s ok to give him some alfalfa everyday. I give him a good handful a couple times a day. Probios, too. He lost some weight so I’m trying to at least maintain, but I’d like him to get back to where he was.
I’ve heard a quiet goat is a happy goat. He’s relatively quiet, unless they need hay or water replaced. Or if he hears me talking. I get super nervous so I end up checking on him. My stepfather and son have really stepped up to help me; they go out together every day and have a pretty good system of getting his shots into him. My son helps me by carrying gallons of water since the 5 gallon pail is just too heavy for him and I can’t lift it at all. He helps with moving hay taking away the waste stuff and giving them new stuff, and he’s going to help me today clear out some of the yuck bedding and put new stuff down. I’d be really up you know what creek without the both of them. He’s getting two shots of thiamine a day and at night about six hours after his last dose of thiamine I give him B complex just because it seems to help him.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

How does everyone feel about this? He’s not “bouncing back” the way I’d hoped but I don’t want to get over zealous and make anything worse.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Electrolytes won't hurt. You can make him a small bucket and provide fresh water too and let him choose.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Electrolytes won't hurt. You can make him a small bucket and provide fresh water too and let him choose.


Wouldn’t touch it. Brat wants Gatorade 🙄


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Picky goats.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would leave it for him. Change once a day and don't give Gatorade. In a pinch is ok..but its high in sugar and void of much else.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> I would leave it for him. Change once a day and don't give Gatorade. In a pinch is ok..but its high in sugar and void of much else.


I 100% agree. I have the bounce back out there for him and regular water. A small bowl on a raised platform of water and ACV. Just got off the phone with the vet - she really doesn't think this is PEM at this point. It could be that he's having seizure activity (explains the weird head/neck thing looking around), could also be an impingement in the spinal cord that causes goats to get wobbly, etc. It's cheaper to get bloodwork on my goat than it is for my cat! She told me to finish the thiamine tonight and stop. Keep an eye on him. We're working out a physical examination and that blood work. He's happy otherwise - sometimes he's totally stinking fine! Other times... he scares the crap outta me. I told her its easier for me to transport him, since he's still small enough, than have her come to the house - it's just insanity with the dogs (because you have to come through the house to get to the back, unless you want to take 12 minutes unhooking and hooking the fence up lol). She's good with that - she's looking into checking thiamine levels, but told me she really, really doesn't think that's the issue now. I'm TERRIFIED of stopping the B1... But, she is someone who is extremely knowledgeable in caprines (most of her large animals are caprines and horses), so I need to trust her. I just... pray a lot. If he has a seizure disorder that will still allow him to live a mostly normal life, I can deal with that. If it's spinal issue, I can deal with that, too. I just need to know - I'm so scared of finding him out in that little barn...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

just keep thiamine handy. If he needs it..give it. Hopefully blood work can offer some answers.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> just keep thiamine handy. If he needs it..give it. Hopefully blood work can offer some answers.


I hope so too. If it's an impingement near the neck, I'm hoping that is something that can be resolved - either on it's own or like... massaging him. I'm not going to do ANYTHING with his neck until the vet says. But, thiamine is pre-drawn - sterile syringe and needle, kept in the fridge. I had 2 doses per day pre-drawn for this whole week. I honestly would just get some peace of mind if we gave him the high level b complex once a day for the rest of this week.

It is SO HARD when our babies are sick and we don't know what EXACTLY is preventing them from being 100% again.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

They can drive our mystery truck pretty hard sometimes. Keep us posted on what the vet says


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> Just got off the phone with the vet - she really doesn't think this is PEM at this point.


What is PEM?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> What is PEM?


Polioencephalomalacia. It’s thiamine deficiency (goat polio). Typing with one hand is annoying so I abbreviated 😅


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

happybleats said:


> They can drive our mystery truck pretty hard sometimes. Keep us posted on what the vet says


100% and will do 🖤


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> Polioencephalomalacia. It’s thiamine deficiency (goat polio). Typing with one hand is annoying so I abbreviated 😅


Thanks for the quick answer.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Thanks for the quick answer.


Of course! You’re all pretty stinkin fast with help for me 🥰


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Update:
He's been stable, so I'm staying optimistic that it will continue like this, and even if it is glacially slow, hoping he will continue to improve. I'll be scheduling just a regular blood panel for him in the next week - money is tight, but I'll make it work. I just want to make sure everything is functioning as it should. He DID lose weight, not a ton, but I'm not really seeing him gain much back. I'm seeing some "turds" again rather than berries, but I don't know which one it is. Tummy Tamer seemed to fix that in about 3 days last time, so I'm going to go with that. I'm looking at a website I was given here for fecal samples and it's 150% affordable, so I'm going to grab some poo soon. 

Vet said I'm getting good advice from you all. Agreed dark beer is good - she said if I see improvement in appetite, and in general, that I can do 6oz (broken up into 3oz 2x a day) for 7 days. I did miss a day - it's super hard to gently tip his head with my splint, but once he realizes I'm not grabbing him to poke, he fights me a little less. In case there IS an impingement in the upper spine - which CAN cause the strange head/neck motions and his wobbles - I don't want ANYONE but me tipping his head back for anything. My son has been a huge help, but he and my step-father just use a little too much force, and if that contributed to anything, I just feel better if I'm the one doing it. I've found a nice way of resting his chin in the crook of my elbow, and pool noodles on his horns for my safety lol, and it goes much easier. 

I've started giving him the Nutra-Glo - vet said it really can't hurt anything, which is similar advice I've gotten here. Since he has been unwell for a while, he can safely have 2mL 1-2x a day. Snow gets it too - his coat is a little rough, though quite thick, and I want to avoid any other incidents. Safe to give with their regular minerals and probios, too.

Still, the possibility remains he may never be "normal" Flower again, but he's totally functional and happy. Still headbutts his brother when he wants the hay to himself - usually he's unsteady when he plays too hard, but he can run like nothing haha. He had the zoomies the other day and it was SO wonderful to see, and pretty funny!

Long update, I know. Also, another important thing - thank you to each and every one of you for continued advice and encouragement <3


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good job on his care!! Glad he's stable


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Amazingly happy news! 
Whahooooo! Yay yipeeeeee *happy dance*
You did great!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh I loved reading your long update!!! Good job Flower and mom!!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

You have done great!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good work.


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