# Kidding Problems. Hope knowone ever goes threw this



## pierceingstarr (Nov 13, 2012)

Well, my very first actual kidding problem happened. One I really couldn't fix. I need to vent. I hope I am posting in the right place. So Charm gave birth to two bucklings. We were having good contractions Saturday night around 10pm. By 12am she started to push and than there was feet. There was no bag that came first only a little discharge. Weird I thought. So baby is coming and legs are out but no head. The legs were so long that they were as long as my forearm. That's just the legs. I go in and push the baby back to try and find a head but I could not. I tried and tried for over an hour. I felt a heart beat but no head. I was so scared that maybe he was deformed and was being born without a head. I know funny, but I really thought that it could be possible. Well with all the stress, the baby finally died and we held charm down and pulled. We felt a click in the birth canal and pulled very slowly so we did not hurt her and the baby finally cam out. His head was all the way backwards across his back. We swung and swung the baby hoping he would start breathing. This boy was long. Longer than any goat baby should be. She ended up not realizing she was having a second baby. He just slid out on his own and I pulled the rest of the way. I got him to make a noise and put him in front of her and she is happy. Her back end is swollen. She walks funny but I am hoping she will be better. I decided I am not going to re breed her in February. That I will give her a year off and heal. If she does any way. I am attaching a picture because I think it would be a good lesson for others. Its a little graphic. Hope I don't offend anyone. 

So if anyone knows how to send some good healing vibes her way I think she would really benefit from it. I am sure she would also appreciate it.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

First, so sorry your first kidding went to bad  Try not to let it get to you and all you can do is try and learn from it. Thats what I kept telling myself after my very first kidding was total crap too.

She does not look bad back there, especially considering that the head and shoulder/body had to come out at the same time, which would also explaine the walking funny. I would baby her and make sure she gets some molases and water  She is very beautiful by the way


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I had kidding problems this year too. My boer doe ginger had triplet bucks.
First one was presented with one front leg only, his head was pushed back sideways, and his other leg was tucked under him. I had to pull him out, he was already dead. 
Second one was two front feet, no head, had to move his head back around and pull him.
Third one was a hind leg, had to push him back in and grab the other leg and pull him out.

The last two kids were just fine.

Then another doe has such a huge kid she couldn't do it herself. He was presented normally, but got stuck at the nose, took forever to get him out.

Hope your doe feels and gets better soon!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

What is really good to have on hand for situation like this is a lambing loop when you cant find head cause it's not in the right position.
Your doe is not as swollen as some of mine when Ive had to assist.She will heal & be just fine.
Good thing you helped her she may not have survived!
I dont let them go for more than 15 minutes without checking to make sure everything is ok; normally they are done in 15 to 20 minutes ifin normal delivery.
Glad she is ok & has a healthy kid, congrats.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Might be a good idea to start her on some penicillin if you where in there along time and or your hands were not completely clean. As for the head back thing. Ya, have seen that lots of times. Am happy my other half has smaller hands. But even then, she has to use a snare every once in awhile. When you are nearly up to your elbow and the doe is pushing like crazy, it can get frustrating when the kid wont put its head forward. The thing with the snare though, if you can get it over the head, you can use it to pull the head forward and then help by pulling the feet.

Dont feel to bad though. You did good, real good for a tough birth like that. Sometimes that kid just gets stuck in there and a c section is required. Here on the farm we kid out 30-50 does a year and have seen some crazy crazy births. Kids trying to come out sideways with their rip cage first. Breach is pretty common. Two kids trying to come out at the same time is always a good scare. Its hard to figure out what legs belong to what and then trying to figure out which one to push back in so the other can come out. Long dead kids (most likely from dams fighting and getting cheap shotted by a by stander) plugging the canal and making so a live kid behind cant get out. 

So ya, in terms of bad births, you did good.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

^^ tangled up kids has been common in my boer does, I've had sideways kids too, not fun at all. I've had them coming out with only a tail showing. 
As for two coming out at the same time, never happened with my goats, only pigs.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

She's not even 1/4 as bad as my poor Coconut was. Good job on the quick thinking. Sorry for your losses. Will be thinking of your doe. Long journey.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

She is a beautiful doe....glad you didn't lose her...nice job on helping :hug:


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## pierceingstarr (Nov 13, 2012)

Well this is good news that she isn't as bad as I thought. Yes, I too have had a doe Mosa where both kids we trying to come out together. I will have to buy a snare. Breech has been common as well only when they have three in there. Only one doe has given me three kids each kidding in the two years I have had her. SO I am also thinking I will breed Charm to a Nubian next time. I bred her to a Nubian/Boer for her first time because Ex puts big heads on these baby's. Their heads get stuck. And its always the first one that is trying to come out.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

If there are mal presentations it's usually the first one. If the second one is expired, doe will stop labor. Anytime a doe stops labor there is something wrong.
This is when the lambing loop comes in handy as the head in an expired kid is normally turned back.
Even if the first one comes normal & there is a breech she will most likely stop labor.
I dont turn them, I grab by the hocks & pull with legs tucked forward.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

When things go wrong and you still end up with one live baby and a live doe, then that's a win. I know it might not seem like it right now. Been there. Give your doe a year off if you want to, but I doubt she will need it if you don't have any further complications.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ya agree that triples give the most breach kids. And boy do we know about that. Had 14 sets of triplets this year. 14!!! Heck we only kidded out 42 does! Id say at 50-70% of em had at least 1 breach kid. Even had a doe give quads  2 bucks and 2 does. Was pretty funny. Our chain of the first 9 kiddings was broken earlier in the day by a doe having just twins. Then Gabriel went into labor a few hours later and pushed out 3 kids in good order and time. We were just about ready to go in for a break when outta the kidding pen we hear a pushing grunt from her and both said at the same time "You have got to be kidding me"  A funny saying we like to use during the kidding season.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I had 12 batches of trips (I learned I hate them lol) The only one I had a issue with was hers were big kids. She always gives me big kids no matter if one, or I guess 3 lol. I had one breach, but was a easy one to get out. Then on another trip she had 2 not a issue, and my mom was helping me, she pulled the legs and then her head was bent back but still came right out. My mom beat herself up over that one. But most of my 'issues' were head no front feet. 2 for the life of me I could not get those dang front feet, and it freaks me out because thats what went wrong in my first kidding. I lost the doe and the kid, and every time that goes on I have sick to my stomach flash backs. Many people disagree with me on this, kidding issues is one reason why I small kids. I usually have between 6-8lb kids. My kids may not end up being as big as others, but I have more money and time in that doe and she will always come first.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You did a great job.

When we deal with a hard delivery, it is tough for sure. You saved your Doe and kid, I am proud of you. 

Everyone has good advice, I would say the same thing.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Jessica, if you can push the head back in on those kind you can grab one or both front legs. Ive brought them out with only one leg.
Not fun but you gotta do what you gotta do.
And I agree, 6 & 8 lbs is a whole lot easier than the 10 & 12s.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I had a 13# single buckling out of my 105# alpine doe this year, he was the one that was stuck at the nose.
Another lady I know had a 14# doeling from one of her boers this year.
I like smaller kids too, they grow just as big in the long run.


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## pierceingstarr (Nov 13, 2012)

nancy d said:


> If there are mal presentations it's usually the first one. If the second one is expired, doe will stop labor. Anytime a doe stops labor there is something wrong.
> This is when the lambing loop comes in handy as the head in an expired kid is normally turned back.
> Even if the first one comes normal & there is a breech she will most likely stop labor.
> I dont turn them, I grab by the hocks & pull with legs tucked forward.


Even as a last resort than can all baby's be removed like this one was. I mean head turned sideways, under breech. I fixed the breech. Surprisingly I was able to get fingers around hocks turn up and straighten back legs into birth canal and pull.

I just need help as to when do you know when its time to call a vet?

Thank you so much for all the support. I will be posting baby pictures soon in birth announcements. Now that he is a spunk.


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## pierceingstarr (Nov 13, 2012)

I don't think I could do your job. I am nervous about my 8. Could not do it with all of yours.


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## pierceingstarr (Nov 13, 2012)

So how do I grow smaller baby's. Kind of tired of the 8 and 10 pounders.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Feed the doe less, or no grain at all during pregnancy. Not always a sure fire way to get small babies though. But I had a bunch of 6lb babies this year. The monster size kid always happens with the tiny alpine doe though, no matter what I do. 
The last set of triplets I got was incredibly small though, about 3lbs each (they were boer, but the doe wasn't really at the top of her game when she had them)


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

while at the time it seemed traumatic and probably is still for you. Know that it could have been much worse and the doe in worst shape. Believe me Ive had worse deliveries and does who were in worst shape. She actually looks normal to me for a doe who just gave birth. It doesnt look "normal" back there right after kidding even in uneventful births.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Like so many others here; I have had similar experiences. Last year we had one present three legs with head twisted back. We couldn't figure out what was going on. Poor little guy did not make it either. And poor Mama. We were inside of her for what seemed like forever. She was very swollen and liked to have cotton soaked in Witch Hazel pressed to her vulva.
I am knocking wood that this season went so well. I only witnessed one kidding as the others were all cleaned up and nursing when I went out in the morning.
I am sorry for your loss and frustration.


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## pierceingstarr (Nov 13, 2012)

OK, So she has been mostly on pasture since May. Since she has eating all of the time whenever she wanted to that could have been the problem? In the winter I feed Alfalfa hay with grass. Its prob. 90/10 Alfalfa/grass. Should I lessen it? I typically feed two flakes morning and night with two cups total of grain. That's winter. In the summer, they get nothing. Because their on grass.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Hmmm, that shouldn't have been a problem. Maybe limit her pasture time, or take away the grain. My does get Alfalfa and Oat/Grain hay 24/7 along with some pasture, no grain at all until they kid.


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## pierceingstarr (Nov 13, 2012)

OK, Well another first timer coming up and that is Sparky. I guess I will let her graze at night and put her with charm in a different pen during the day. Less feed, more water hoping smaller baby's.


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## tandy28 (Jul 26, 2013)

I just had two new babies yesterday both no problems tiny pygmy girls I'm betting less than 3lbs each. Also had set of twins 2 weeks ago 1 girl and 1 boy. This comes after losing my first nanny last year after a horrible birth. She started labor than stopped after a few calls was told she would be fine and babies would be here when they are ready. This went on for week she was up eating and drinking no discharge nothing then went out one morning to check on her and she was in serious trouble before I got to her she collapsed over and died. So I ended up cutting her open to find out why and it was nothing I could have done she had two babies one normal baby girl and another but it was mostly a huge mass no legs head or anything I've ever seen but it had male genitals and an eye and teeth but was the size of a football or a tad larger and filled with fluid of course I lost her band babies which was hard so this year I was cautious when kidding started and after 4 babies have hit the ground with no problems makes me feel so much better. The one nanny who kidded yesterday was a twin baby to the momma I lost last year her sister is to kid in a few months and I hope she goes with no problems. I have learned that sometimes no matter what we do things can't be changed. Just doing our best is all we can do.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Piercingstar I dont think your doe's problem was feed related at all.
As Tandy has pointed out, sometimes we just dont know & things dont go right regardless of our care.
I have learned to press on & get kids out if I have to; sometimes vet wont be here in a timely manner anyway.
Im not paying someone to do what I can do & get er done sooner.


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## pierceingstarr (Nov 13, 2012)

Well, I am sure the vet would have been upset with me if I had called him at 2am that morning. I have talked with the lady I bought Ex. from and she was telling me maybe I should make them wait longer in between feedings. I feed at 7 in the morning and they still have food by 3-4 in the evening and than at 5 or 6 I feed evening. So her suggestion is feed earlier and later. She has never had a problem with baby's being to big. I mean Excalibur's baby's on average are 8-10 pounds.


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