# Property tax issue <not our land but interested in>



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Okay I'll try to make this long story short. heh. Sorry this is so long...

We have 2 acres of land. But between our front and back property there is a small smidge of land, I am thinking it's less than half an acre. 
Anyway, it's basically owned by nobody. The person it was listed to belong to was a woman's name under XXXXX estate - so the woman inherited it, and the XXXX estate inherited it from someone else.
BTW, in our deed it says we can pass through the property freely/as we wish to get to our back acreage, otherwise we wouldn't have bought this place.
Problem is. 
There is NO deed on this little bit of land==they can't find it because they don't know who it was inherited from! Can you tell this land has been in that family for MANY years?

I checked 2 years ago and no one had paid taxes since 1999. An attorney had advised us to pay the taxes, use the land as our own, and within a certain amount of time we could foreclose or we could do something through the county to claim the land as ours.
Since we can't find an owner to purchase it from, we decided to check today and find out how much the taxes had gone up to, and see about paying them.

Someone paid in 2008 and 2009! Come to find out a company bought the tax bill at a tax sale they hold each August. I had no idea they did this, and am a bit ticked off that the last time I went and got this info THEY NEVER MENTIONED A TAX SALE TO ME :angry:

Anyway, the woman at the courthouse is nice, and helped me a lot. She did say that it was a company that bought the tax bill and she stressed we DON'T want to deal with them directly, as they will try to get us to buy the bill for 3-4x more than what they paid. She advised on that part to have an attorney try to deal with them on a buy out.

She said they buy a lot of the tax bill's and try to force foreclosure. 
But with this particular property I can't figure out how they will make $$ off of it? 
It's not even 1/2 an acre, in a flood plane. Out here you have to have 5 acres of land to build a house. 
We have to be able to have access to/from our property so they can't put up a fence to keep us out or they are going against what was declared in our deed.
It's wooded area, that has junk, etc. and there is no access to it from the road. I do not see my neighbors being interested in it - one side is owned by someone out of state and a restaurant is on it <they don't do anything with the rest of the property>, and the house on the other side of us they are trying to sell the house. While the people that own the house seem to be :hair: kind of people <they inherited it from their mom and no one lives there>, I just don't see them trying to get it because there's still the part in our deed that allows us on that property.... 
You wouldn't believe the crap this guy tried in 09....moron.

Tomorrow I'll try to get pics/vid if it's not raining.

I just don't know how this company thinks it can make $$ off of this property? 
I thought that when the property sells and you have paid a tax bill on it, that you only get back what you paid? I wonder if you actually get a percentage?

We had considered paying 2010 and then 2006 and 2007, and also push for foreclosure. I told hubby we could possibly bid up to what we are willing to pay for the property, and if it goes over that amount...they can keep it... 
We'd get our $$ back....
And they'd be stuck with property that they can't get too...heh.

We want to be realistic on a price, but since the company has never been the legal owner, we aren't willing to pay them what the property is worth. Heck, it's NOT worth what the county has it listed as, at least not in my opinion.
An acre of land around here sells for $25,000. They have this smidge of grown up, forest with junk <and a lot of it we have cleaned out!> listed at $15,000.

I won't pretend it's not a stressful matter. We had wanted to fence it all in after paying taxes, clean it up and turn the goats out on it. We can still do that with our back acreage, no big deal there, but it sure would be nice to have this little section too.

I guess this is more of a vent than anything, but if you have any advice I'd love to hear it. The woman at the courthouse gave me a name and number to call tomorrow for a woman I believe she said handled the legal side of paperwork for this or something like that? Anyway, she said to call her and talk about what we'd like to do and see what the best options would be.

I knew we shouldn't have waited to pay the taxes on it. Finding anyone who has ownership rights is going to be down right impossible  the tax bill is sent to a woman in California. I've looked up the info and come up with names not related to these people...


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

sounds like a pickle but not impossible at this point - but more like just a timing issue for you


----------



## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I can certainly relate! It may take some time to take care of, but it does work out in the end.


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks so much! I needed to talk to someone about it, and I am glad I have friends like you all that I can talk to  
I guess we'll finish fencing in our back acreage, and then just fence in a thin passway for the goats to get back there until we know what is going to happen. 
We'll talk to the woman tomorrow and hopefully she can give us a few ideas on what we could or should do.


----------



## Desert Viking Ranch (Jan 17, 2011)

I am not sure which state you live in (assuming Indiana by the name), but back taxes and tax liens are something I am VERY familiar with here in the state of Arizona. I have been purchasing tax liens for a number of years and I can maybe help clarify a few things for you.



> I checked 2 years ago and no one had paid taxes since 1999. An attorney had advised us to pay the taxes, use the land as our own, and within a certain amount of time we could foreclose or we could do something through the county to claim the land as ours.


This generally requires a bidder # from your county (usually for free). Not sure why the attorney would advise to use the land - other than no one would probably notice. Legally it isn't yours however you cannot by federal law be restricted from accessing your property on the other side if this property is the only way in or out.



> Someone paid in 2008 and 2009! Come to find out a company bought the tax bill at a tax sale they hold each August. I had no idea they did this, and am a bit ticked off that the last time I went and got this info THEY NEVER MENTIONED A TAX SALE TO ME


As with most dealing concerning the state and county, they are not obligated to notify you directly. There is a publicly available list (in Arizona it is published/updated monthly by each respective county) of all delinquent property taxes that county wishes to collect upon. There is not exact time frame for how long the property tax is delinquent before it shows up on the list, each county/state is different. My county's tax sale (auction) happens in February however back taxes can be purchased anytime throughout the year. There also may be a different type of sale concerning back taxes where your county sells property outright if the property has been delinquent for too long. Counties would rather just sell for a fair value (much lower than market value) to collect the taxes owed and be done with it.



> She did say that it was a company that bought the tax bill and she stressed we DON'T want to deal with them directly, as they will try to get us to buy the bill for 3-4x more than what they paid. She advised on that part to have an attorney try to deal with them on a buy out.


Her advice stems from the fact that the company will want you to redeem the lien - this is how they make money. Regardless if an attorney is involved or not you are going to have to pay if you want the property.



> She said they buy a lot of the tax bill's and try to force foreclosure.
> But with this particular property I can't figure out how they will make $$ off of it?


You cannot necessarily "force" a forclosure - although every state is different. Generally speaking you need to wait at least 3 years (sometimes up to 5) from the date of the _back tax sale_, not delinquent taxes. In other words you cannot just buy up many years of back taxes and then go straight to your attorney the same day and begin the forclosure process (believe me, I tired  ). Money is made off of interest and I use this same system to bank money. In my state the going interest rate is 16% annually unless it is purchased during auction in which you bid against others for a _lower_ interest rate (kind of a backwards process). Either way the county doesn't care because they get their tax money and you just get the amount of interest on the back tax sale. You make money by purchasing land for pennies on the dollar (just the amount of back taxes owed) and then foreclosing. Even if you purchased land worth only $1000, if you investment was only $75 in back taxes you still make money; and of course the more you buy the more you make.



> We had considered paying 2010 and then 2006 and 2007, and also push for foreclosure. I told hubby we could possibly bid up to what we are willing to pay for the property, and if it goes over that amount...they can keep it...
> We'd get our $$ back....
> And they'd be stuck with property that they can't get too...heh.


Be very careful here if you get locked into a "back tax stalemate" neither party can foreclose and one party of the other is obligated to pay the taxes each year. There is also no way for your to get your money back. You can have liens on liens on liens and it gets very messy. The bottom line is the party with the most current lien is obligated to pay each year or risk having a lien on their lien. Many counties also have limits to how long you can hold onto a tax lien before you are obligated to begin the foreclosure process - which usually requires attorney fees. Even still, the judge may grant only the money you invested be returned to you - typically the land is granted in exchange for the money you are owed, _but this is not guaranteed_ - you could just get stuck with someone owing you money and never paying. I would advise consulting with an attorney before attempting this route (although it might work :thumb: )



> I knew we shouldn't have waited to pay the taxes on it. Finding anyone who has ownership rights is going to be down right impossible the tax bill is sent to a woman in California. I've looked up the info and come up with names not related to these people...


The legal owner of the property (if found) cannot do anything with the land (including sell or improve it) until the back taxes owed are paid to the county and the interest is paid to the current company who holds the tax lien.

If you could provide me your state and county I could possibly do a bit more research on advice - and I don't charge attorney fees


----------



## 4hmama (Jan 9, 2009)

Keep in mind, I don't know what I'm talking about....but in my way of thinking - this property has to be in a deed somewhere. If it wasn't deeded to someone, it may have been reserved in another deed somewhere. Find the original deed for the property, when it was an entire piece and look at the property deeds of what was sold off. It may have been included or reserved somewhere. If it isn't mentioned anywhere, and the property is still a part of the 'original' property...contact the owners directly and if they aren't interested in selling, offer to pay the taxes in exchange for the property. If it is landlocked by everyone around it, you may be able to argue for a reduced price?? Since you can't be denied ingress or egress between your properties, it might be worth simply asking the owners if you can put up temporary fencing to allow your animals to use both of your properties.


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks so much everyone! I am in KY<Woodford co>, and wasn't able to call today, but will call tomorrow to find out a few laws in our state. 
The land is so old, that it was inherited but they can't figure out who the land was inherited from! She even showed me it in the deed book, they can't find anything on it, other than the info I already have.
I think I might try talking to the man across the road, his place has been in his family for MANY years. I do recall him telling me last year when we were talking that all this land on this side of the road used to be a big farm, there wasn't any woods/trees, there were some houses/cabin. And when the owner died, he divided the land up between his 4 kids. Eventually it was all sold in 'parts' but I am wondering....did this little piece of land ever sell, or get passed on from one generation to the next until possibly the 'XXXX estate' person passed away - which would explain why the taxes were paid up until 1999, and the only person with that name the lady at the courthouse could find, passed away in 1999. Maybe her kin doesn't know about the property? We had considered contacting a few people in the area with her last name even though her last address was clear across country.
The land is definitely land locked. Our place is north/south, there is a restaurant on the east side <the owner of the land lives out of state>, then the empty house on the west side. I don't even think the people who own the house on the west side would be interested in it, simply because they can't sell what they own now! <they want way too much $$$!>.

After reading everything you all have written, my father also had this to say.... He said to check into the state eminent domain law. He said if there is no owner to challenge us to not use the fence, then we should just make a wide path for our goats to go back and forth to the back acreage. It would cost the corporation more $$ and time than what it's worth to try to make us stop using the land. 
So I will see what the law says on that, and gather up some more information.

In my original post when I mentioned that they didnt' tell me about a tax sale, I had asked how we could buy the tax bills and they never mentioned the tax sale to me. I wouldn't have been upset if I hadn't asked in what ways we could purchase the bill 

It would be nice for the land to be foreclosed on and us just bid on it and get it that way. My fear is someone trying to bid it up. I am wondering if we just make our path <fence in the path to our back acreage>, and keep an eye out for the county sales and get it that way...the woman at the courthouse did say they would foreclose on the property, and I remember the attorney telling me that if you wait a year or two after you pay the tax bill, you can file to have the land foreclosed on, or something of that sort.

I'm just not sure what the laws are, or what this corporation's intent will be. I think that's why she recommended this lady I'm going to call because I believe she handles the business side of things for this corporation.

It's such a tiny piece of land, I think that's what makes it so frustrating!


----------



## Desert Viking Ranch (Jan 17, 2011)

It sounds to me like you are correct in assuming that the real owner of the property probably has no idea they own it. In regards to using the land to move your goats through, since there is really no one to enforce the use/misuse of the land I would also say go ahead and pass your goats through it back and forth. :thumbup: Until the county can figure out their paperwork mess as to who owns it anyway.

I will have to do some more research tonight on Kentucky, but it has a 3 year redemption period at 12% interest for tax liens. It sounds like you probably have about that long until the company with the current liens can forclose. If they did then you would have to deal with them but right now they cannot do anything about you using the land, they don't own it 

That's a shame that when you had originally asked about the tax sales they didn't tell you about it at all  I have also had similar experiences with my county depending on who I talked to; some are very helpful and others are not at all :shrug:

Concerning Eminent Domain, as per the Kentucky Eminent Domain Act of 1976, this would have no effect on the property right now because the land is still privately owned. This act only affords private citizens rights in regard to the Commonwealth attempting to assume ownership of private property for public use. If it went this route that would really be a shame as you probably wouldn't be able to purchase it back - you would however most likley be able to _use_ it without conflict as it would be deemed public land.

Now, you may want to speak with a local attorney because it seems to me that there is a clause in the Act about the ability of private persons, corporations and business entities to be able to do the same under the authority of the law. I am not a lawyer but it sounds as if perhaps you can use the same laws to enact eminent domain on the property for youserlf...and that would be a great win for you! :stars: (except for paying back the back taxes... :GAAH: )


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Wow thank you so much! I will talk to an attorney in just a few minutes! The woman whose phone number I was given is an attorney.

Paying the back taxes isn't a huge deal - less than $3,000 even if you include the 2 years the company paid.


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

OKay I just talked to the attorney and she said we have a few different options. She said the corporations may want to charge us a lot of $$ to buy the tax bill. She also said we could wait until they foreclose on the property, and buy it that way, BUT, the bid HAS to be at least 2/3 of the property value --- 66%, so she said bid up to $9,900 if it's listed as being worth $15,000. 
She said we could also buy a tax bill, wait a year and foreclose on it. But since the corporation has already bought one and is likely to foreclose on it, then it might be worth it for us to wait. 

I called the court house and no lawsuit has been filed as of yet. I have the # for someone else that handles the tax sales in our county and he told me they could tell me how I can get lists of properties that will sell 

I think we'd be willing to pay the 2/3rd at auction, but if someone comes to bid it up, then they can keep the land, and good luck to them LOL

She mentioned the county could foreclose on it as well....

Drama...drama...drama LOL


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Here's some pics I have up on the net....

Look beyond the back fenceline and that's where the property is at <completely wooded land>, it's different now on our property, but nothing has changed on the 1/2 acre..









Here's what the place looked like when we bought it. See the 'mound' on the right that looks like a tangle of weeds? That wasn't just weeds - a house had burned down many years ago and was bulldozed back there and covered with dirt. This affected that small lot too, and we pulled all kinds of garbage out of it, the only thing we haven't cleaned up is the tires - they were buried and we had to use the bobcat to get them out.









I want to get pics of the property, will try to tomorrow.


----------



## Desert Viking Ranch (Jan 17, 2011)

It sounds to me like you are a very fast learner and are on top of the situation now! :thumb: You will get this sorted out soon enough and most likley have addtional land, best of luck!

...and is that shed I see made of pallets?? :chin: I get free pallets all the time and use them in construction, they are such a great resource that most throw away. I know a guy in New Mexcio that uses them to create very sturdy, good looking benches. I never thought about going two high for a more complete shed, I use them as 4 foot high wallks which are perfect goat shelters! Now you have given me some ideas for another large hay barn!! :wahoo: :dance:

(can't wait to see my wife's face when I tell her I am going to get more loads of pallets :ROFL: )


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks so much!! I do appreciate all your help 

Yep that's our mini goat barn! It's 16'x12' and STURDY. We put a nice roof frame on it --used Ondura roofing. We put OSB siding on it, just needs to be painted and will look great! I need to get some new pics. We built an addition on the other side of it, 16'x7' and I think we're going to add on to the front this summer. We built the addition out of scrap wood, and bought some OSB for the roof <covered with tarp> until we can finish it, just not sure how we want to finish the roof, Ondura or something else.

I use Pallets inside too as divider walls. We have a permanent divider wall dividing it into 2 large stalls, but I can put up a few more, tie them together and make more stalls. I love being able to change the inside around without it needing to be a permanent fix. But I also can't wait until we add on some more.

When i was a kid my dad built a big 6 stall barn using pallets and some scrap metal for siding. It was sturdy, and kept the horses out of the elements. So when we were trying to figure out what to do for a barn for the goats...I told my husband why not use pallets? Of course he no longer thinks I am crazy LOL

BTW -- our buck pen was supposed to be a temporary pen for weaning goat kids, and ended up being used for the buck. He can climb fence, so I had to rig up his fence so he can't climb it <looks like a prison LOL>. For a gate I use pallets, and he can't get over them <180lbs boer buck>. So I am going to rebuild the entire fence with pallets. I know exactly how I want to do it too, just waiting for some decent weather.

I love pallets, you can do sooooo much with them


----------



## Desert Viking Ranch (Jan 17, 2011)

NO kidding........ I have a creep pen that uses Ondura roofing - not sure if I like it better than metal or not as metal you can bend if you need to. It sure is super durable in the elements (even the extreme heat here which is always troublesome) and it can go over anything. They are probably both equal depending on how you use them I guess.

Another great thing about pallet walls - you can stuff them with straw for extra insulation


----------

