# EMERGENCY kid can't move his back legs!



## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

*Kid can't move his back legs!*

This is the same kid that was diagnosed by the vet with a respiratory infection yesterday. Given Baytril. Now he is dragging himself around on his front legs, can barely move his back legs!

I did give him a vitamin C injection in the neck two days ago. He struggled. Could I have hit the spine?


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

No evident pain. Temp 103. Belly is somewhat distended but not tight.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

He seems to be feeling fine otherwise - eyes bright, front legs strong, has an appetite, peeing, can wag his tail. In other words I think he is getting over the infection, but I'm baffled about what this can be.
I believe it happened slowly. I remember yesterday while he was feeling badly, before we went to the vet, he was standing hunched, and he seemed to be reluctant to move his back legs. Now he can only barely move them. They're limp. No joint swelling or anything, so I don't think it can be infectious arthritis from the umbilical cord. They're just limp.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm researching Mycoplasma pneumonia and White Muscle Disease, but both of those are accompanied by weakness and he's not what I'd call weak.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

That is strange. :thinking:

Meningeal worm?

Did the vet give a shot in the rear leg? May of hit that nerve.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Do you copper bolus in your herd? Did he get stepped on?


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

No I don't think he got stepped on; the slow progression (over about a day) seems to indicate something else. Yes, I do supplement copper and will occasionally bolus.
The vet did give an injection in the left rear leg, but this affects both legs equally.
I thought of meningeal worm, but they are in a small pen where no deer ever come - our dogs keep them away and we haven't seen one in years.
Is it even possible to hit the spine in a damaging place when giving a neck injection???


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

He is too young. M worm has a 60 day incubation. I'd consider joint ill since he had pus around his navel.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

OK...but I have noticed no joint swelling. Also the vet gave him Baytril, so it shouldn't have progressed, right??
Tomorrow's Sunday and the vet is closed. Should I go to the emergency vet for more Baytril? (Will have to sit in the waiting room a couple of hours)
His fever is back up to 104.  But he does have an appetite.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Also I can detect no swelling, stiffness, or heat in any of his joints.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Are his legs out behind him like a frog? I had one an early kid born like that at it took a while before he could stand. I would try selenium and e and see if that helps.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Sort of. But the thing is, he is 2 weeks old, and was super healthy and growing well. It just happened over the course of the last 30 hours or so.
He has been coughing a little, a raspy cough. Maybe it's both a respiratory infection AND joint ill.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Hmm, whether or not selenium is the issue, it will certainly help. Selenium and E are both great antioxidants. 

Do you have any banamine to give him? If for any reason he has swelling somewhere that is pinching a nerve, that will help. 
Keep him on the antibiotics and make sure he is still eating. Try and keep him out of a drafty area so it doesn't make his pneumonia worse.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I don't have Banamine. Without it, how long will it take the fever to go down?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

You can give aspirin if you don't have banamine. Without any fever reducers, the time it takes for his fever to go down is dependent on how fast the antibiotics knock down the infection, so it's hard to say. 
I believe aspirin is 1 tab per 10lbs, I've never personally used aspirin for my goats, so I would double check the dose.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

The vet only gave you one shot? UGH..I would get some kind of antibiotic going...Tylan 200 would be my over the counter choice or Penicillin...Did the leg thing happen after his Vit C shot? Is he pooping normal? peeing ok? 

the naval infection can go sepsis with out swollen joints...as my vet explains..it can hit the joints as it did with my buck or kidneys and bladder..him not using his back legs can be something minor, or not..I would get daily meds in him now...Banamine or baby aspirin to help reduce fever and any inflammation that might be hidden...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

From merck manuels

Environmental bacteria gain entry to the neonate's circulation, usually via the umbilical cord. Other methods of entry include contamination of breaks in the skin or via the GI or respiratory tract. Predisposing factors include lack of routine dipping of the umbilical cord; poor sanitation in the kidding pens; or does kidding in overcrowded, dirty conditions. E rhusiopathiae are soil-living bacteria that may persist on farms or in pens used by sheep or pigs. Mycoplasma infection is also a differential diagnosis (see Mycoplasmosis in Goats).

Clinical Findings
With joint-ill, more than one joint is hot, swollen, and painful. Often, the affected limb(s) cannot bear weight, and kids with more than one leg affected may be unable to stand. The more commonly affected joints include the carpus, shoulder, hock, and stifle. Generally, there is a fever but no reduction in appetite. Sometimes the navel area is inflamed, but often there is no visible abnormality. An abscess may form on the navel long after the kid has recovered. The WBC count may be increased with a left shift.

If the condition becomes chronic, the limbs are stiff, some joints may be ankylosed, and overall growth is poor. At this stage the temperature is normal.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks Cathy, very helpful!
He seems to be peeing OK. I have not seen him poop lately, but then I don't often see the kids poop.
Yes, the paralysis happened gradually for about 24 hours after the shot where he struggled.
In the absence of an antibiotic, I gave him another vit. C shot a couple hours ago. Now his temp is now down to 103.4. This keeps happening after the vit. C shots - fever goes down for a few hours. This is the lowest it's been since he got sick (other than after the Banamine, when it went to normal range). Is this a good sign? Or could it just be a fluctuation?
Still has appetite.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

And thank you all very much for your help. Prayers are appreciated as well. :grouphug:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Vit c is helpful..i know it really helped our baby donkey with tetanus... Not sure whats going on with the temp, could be the vit C supporting his body. garlic is a natural antibiotic, if you have fresh garlic you can crush it well and feed it to him...you can crush it well and mix with water to drench if needed...


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

OK, I have had extremely good results with oral C, but haven't done the injections enough to know so I wasn't sure...
Will do the garlic.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Definitely a respiratory infection. He is rasping and coughing. Temp was 103.7 last I checked.
On a happier note, another of my does just kidded a single doeling. She is rather weak, as it took some pulling to get her out, but she's been trying to stand. And she's a beauty (of course)!


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I have had him in a makeshift steam tent with sage and garlic for most of the night. The whole house smells like Thanksgiving. His temp is now down to 103.2, but he is grinding his teeth a little and rasping a LOT. Still can drag himself around on his front feet, still nurses vigorously whenever I take him out to his mom.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I hope he gets better for you.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Temp is 102.9, thank God! But the rear paralysis is complete. I just hope it doesn't progress up his body. I want to have an X-ray done, or something just to figure out what's wrong. But it isn't an emergency and it's Sunday so I don't think the emergency vet will do anything for me.
What's the chance of the paralysis going away?
I would try Bo-Se (even though I'm pretty certain it's not White Muscle Disease), but nobody sells it - last I checked.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

You need a vet rx for Bose, but you can buy the selenium/e paste. Not as good as Bose but without a vet it might be the most you can do.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Prayers sent. 

Glad his temp is normal. Sorry he cannot walk.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Can he feel his hind feet? Are they cold to the touch? Pinch him and see if he cries. Sounds mean but if he does not feel his toes anymore the chances of the feeling coming back goes way down. If he pulls his foot but doesn't look at you or cry it is not a good sign. The signal may make it to the spinal cord and give you a pull reaction but you want the signal to reach the brain. The pull without realizing it is not a good sign. No reaction at all is worse.

A radiograph will show you fractures and possibly narrowing of spinal cord but only if the positioning is really good. A CT or MRI is really more diagnostic for spinal issues.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

He does pull back when I pinch his hooves. He won't cry when I pinch the skin really hard, but then I tried it on his front legs (which are perfectly functional) and he won't cry for that either.
My paramedic brother said, based on his knowledge of humans, swelling due to trauma could cause the gradual onset. Which means there's a good chance of recovery when swelling goes down. Possibly greater if I give him an anti-inflammatory. But I can't get him to the vet until tomorrow morning...ideas?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes..i would get banamine from the vet tomorrow. ...good job on getting the temp down..
Sending good thoughts


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

OK, I found two conditions that may match the problem in this kid. Sadly, both appear to be irreversible.

1. From Fias Co Farm:



> *The Nervous Form of CAE*
> All breeds of goats can be affected as can both sexes, and most individuals first show signs between one and four months of age. The problem is one of progressive weakness (paresis) of the hind limbs leading to eventual paralysis. The early paresis may be perceived as lameness, incoordination or weakness in one or both rear legs. Knuckling over of the feet and difficulty in rising may follow until such time that the animal is unable to rise at all. The course of the disease is from several days to several weeks. Despite the progressive paralysis, the kid will usually remain bright and alert and continue to eat and drink. Mild pneumonia may be present. The development of these signs results from inflammation in the spinal cord induced by the virus. Nerves which control motor function of the hind limbs are progressively destroyed.


2. From Merck:



> Copper deficiency may cause locomotor difficulties in goats in two distinct ways. Abnormal bone growth with increased bone fragility can predispose to fractures of long bones. Independently, *a neurologic condition known as enzootic ataxia or swayback develops, in which copper deficiency of kids in utero or after birth results in permanent myelin degeneration in the spinal cord, leading to progressive incoordination and paralysis with failure of mobility.* Clinically, this appears similar to the neurologic form of caprine arthritis-encephalitis virus (see Caprine Arthritis and Encephalitis) infection in young kids. Copper status of the ration needs to be evaluated, and copper supplementation provided as necessary.


His mother has always been negative for CAE but I have not had her tested in a few years. Also, I give copper sulfate in the goats' water. His mother is mildly deficient (shows some hooked hairs) but not severely so. So neither seems likely, yet both seem to match pretty well.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Hooked hairs is zinc deficiency, but hopefully it's neither of those problems. That's why I was wondering if you copper bolus.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I give copper in the water; however, lately I have been giving the adults sulfur for lice. Sulfur can interfere with copper absorption. I stopped giving it wondering if it had anything to do with his problems. Is swayback treatable?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Your inbox is full, but swayback isn't reversible, you can only try to stop it from progressing. 
Was he walking with an off gait prior to losing mobility in the hind legs? Swaying, having trouble keeping his feet under him, looked like a drunk person walking?
The problem could still be swelling on the spinal cord.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

He's too young for CAE paralysis, that usually strikes around 6 to 8 months old and it starts with seizures that destroy the brain. 


Given this guy's history, I would say that the navel ill has infected a vertebrae joint in his back rather than a larger joint. Probably somewhere right around T3. Given a full series of Baytril, he might well recover. 

With Baytril remember NO antacids/soda, vitamins of any kind, or dairy products within 4 hours of giving it.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

> Was he walking with an off gait prior to losing mobility in the hind legs? Swaying, having trouble keeping his feet under him, looked like a drunk person walking?


Not that I saw. He looked hunched and was having trouble moving his back legs. I thought it was just discomfort. Then, a few hours later, I checked on him and his back legs were completely limp.


> With Baytril remember NO antacids/soda, vitamins of any kind, or dairy products within 4 hours of giving it.


OH was not aware! Thanks. Is that 4 hours before AND 4 hours after? Or just after?

If it's a navel infection, how would you explain the lung infection? Because he was certainly wheezing, rasping, and coughing.

I will take him to the vet first thing in the morning, and demand ten doses of Baytril. I still suspect swayback/copper deficiency, but will rule this out before giving up hope.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

remember the article I posted on your other thread?



> Environmental bacteria gain entry to the neonate's circulation, usually via the umbilical cord. Other methods of entry include contamination of breaks in the skin or via the GI o*r respiratory tract*.


Or it could have been a whole different issue he was having....


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Temp has remained normal all night, with no vitamin C shots. I think whatever infection he had, is gone. Any antibiotic will probably be useless at this point, but I will monitor him carefully today and get some if necessary. I suppose with the paralysis, we will just have to wait and see if it gets better.

My gut feeling is still swayback, pneumonia, and maybe a touch of navel ill, all induced by an acute copper deficiency. Everything points to it. There have been other signs of copper deficiency in the herd as well. I was wondering why the copper in their water wasn't working; apparently, the sulfur was interfering.

I did give the kid a tiny bit of copper last night, and that did seem to be a turning point - no fever after that, and he can now bleat much more loudly than he could before.

I think his elimination is affected, but he is not entirely incontinent (pooping and dribbling pee), so he may be okay long-term even with no improvement. I can make a "wheelchair" for him.

I am :brickwall: right now. I try to make sure the goats get enough copper to PREVENT stuff like this. Moral of this story: Don't give too much sulfur to pregnant or nursing goats!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am praying for him, it must be pretty hard dealing with that kind of issue and trying so very hard to get him back onto his feet. Hope things get better for him.:hug:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Best wishes


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks for the prayers and best wishes.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Update: I was feeling up and down Dilly's back, and he let out a bleat of pain, repeatedly, when I rubbed a certain point on his backbone about an inch in front of his hips.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I bet that's the spot. Did you get any meds from the vet today?


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

No, but he is still rasping in the lungs and oozing at the navel, so I'm going to get the Baytril today. Can I have a dosage on that? I'm reading conflicting info- anywhere from 2-4cc per 100lbs. Also, is it important to give the 3 days of Banamine? And what is the dosage on that? Dilly is 7 pounds.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Banamine is 1cc per 100 lbs. I would think it important to give. Never used baytril so I don't know. But you need to give it for 10 to 14 days. My vet always liked to go 14 days to ensure full recovery.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

baytril is 4 cc per 100# per tennesseemeatgoats...


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Check the concentration on your baytril as it comes in large and small animal concentrations.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Ok. Can you tell me dosages for both so I can tell the vet exactly how much I need? Not going to buy a whole bottle!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good point nicholemackenzie...the dose i gave is for baytril 100 (not 2.27)


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Gave the Baytril.
What is the likelihood of partial or complete recovery? I want to be realistic; after 3 days of it being in the vertabra, seems like there's not much chance of full recovery, based on what I read. And even if he regains the use of his legs, will he have constant back pain? Am I wasting my time and needlessly prolonging suffering? I guess I need to wait and see what the antibiotic can do.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Those are good questions. I would hope once the infection is completely gone healing can begin...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Once the lesion and swelling is healed up there wont be any pain even if there is still weakness in the spinal cord. He may be prone to pneumonia due to the compromise to his lungs and need vaccinated yearly.

The T3 vertebrae is where the nerve to the lungs extends out so, hopefully his breathing will get better as the swelling goes down.


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## cfish001 (Sep 1, 2015)

milkmaid said:


> Update: I was feeling up and down Dilly's back, and he let out a bleat of pain, repeatedly, when I rubbed a certain point on his backbone about an inch in front of his hips.


That is same spot that Iris got injured at and was unable to use her back legs. The vet told me that is where the nerves for back muscle control are. She had the same pain response in the same place that you are describing.

Over a 3 month period, Iris's back legs totally atrophied. She lost weight, I found it difficult to get her eat and had to rotate until I found hydrated hay. The shape of her spinal cord changed to a curve, it changed the shape of her ribs where the rib cage got wider and she acquired a bed sore early on because she was sitting on her tush all of the time.

I really hope that your goat doesn't have a soft tissue spinal cord injury, but it does sound like that is what he has.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Cfish, thank you for sharing Iris's experience. I will wait and see how he is after the infection is gone, and move on from there.


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