# Mineral and/or grain for Buck?



## LillyRoseGal (Jul 15, 2018)

Hi all! Ok. So, long story short:
I’ve heard that bucks and whethers can get urinary calculi from eating grain and getting minerals.

Is this true? Is it just too much grain that causes this?

My buck is 7 months old (in 4 days ) and just starting to be, ahm, a Man. He is in a pasture with a yearling whether.

I’d just like some advice about feeding grain, and mineral. As my area heads into winter I usually feed some grain (for does growing babies, and to give almost-yearlings a boost). I purchased my buckling this spring, though, so I don’t know the protocol to grain-mineral. He was getting mineral until about July, but I’m not sure... do I still feed it when he’s a breeding adult?

I am not prepared for urinary calculi, and don’t even really know what it consists of/ how to treat it.

To finish, I’d rather that, if you know something, you would recommend books or websites that I could do further research on.
Thank you!


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Good morning! You have great questions. Regarding minerals, ALL goats need free access to quality loose minerals. That's the simple question right there.

Now, not all mineral mixes are created equal. Some are terrific, some are gawdoffal. Most are in between. Let us know what you want to give him and we can help you evaluate the level of awesome.

Now, for the trickier question, the grain. You see, it really depends on several factors (you knew that was coming, didn't you?)

What kind of grain are we talking here (some are nutritious, some are empty calories. Yes, I'm looking at you, corn!)

Are you trying to use it to substitute for roughage? Bad idea, they aren't interchangeable.

How much grain? A handful, to keep them happy to see you? A gallon?

Are you using the word grain as a substitute word for concentrated feed such as Goat Chow, or All Stock? That is common, but it may not tell us exactly what you want us to know.

A big problem with grain is it is considered high on the phosphorus end of the all important Calcium- Phosphorus ratio. Other things are also higher in phosphorus so combining a lot of things heavy on phosphorus gets the diet well away from the needed 2:1 ratio, if you aren't making certain the calcium is getting fed. (like in minerals)!

This phosphorus imbalance is what causes UC.

So grain can be great nutrition, it is not evil, but it can be tricky.

One way to head off UC is to mix Ammonium Chloride in with your favourite minerals, 1 1/2 lbs AC to 25 lbs minerals. It will only help your boys and it won't hurt your girls. Here is a link. https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...argid=kwd-311781481188&ref=pd_sl_1nugfwtds4_e

I hope this helps. There is lots of great info right here https://www.thegoatspot.net/search/202709/?q=Minerals&o=date&c[title_only]=1 on minerals, or as I said, tell us what you want to give (minerals and grain) and we'll help.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice.


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

toth boer goats said:


> Very good advice.


You give grain concentrates to your males, don't you? I'm sure you do. What do you give, and when? Is it during your breeding season at all?


----------



## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I feed my males concentrates twice a day, all year long. I feed a feed that contains Ammonium chloride along with a mineral that contains AC, plus they get alfalfa pellets mixed in with their concentrates to balance out the Calciumhosphorus ratio. Plus, in the cooler/colder months, they get soaked beet pulp that adds a bit of calcium, also, plus added fiber.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

lottsagoats1 said:


> I feed my males concentrates twice a day, all year long. I feed a feed that contains Ammonium chloride along with a mineral that contains AC, plus they get alfalfa pellets mixed in with their concentrates to balance out the Calciumhosphorus ratio. Plus, in the cooler/colder months, they get soaked beet pulp that adds a bit of calcium, also, plus added fiber.


 I do the same except, I do not feed beet pulp or the alfalfa pellets.
I feed alfalfa hay 2x a day and nobel goat grower 1 x a day. I feed it all year around.
But when they are breeding, they get the grain on occasion as it is hard to feed it to them when they do not want it and only want to breed.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Good advise! The only thing I want to add is no matter if you are going to mix the ammonia chloride in with the minerals or not grab a bag. It is what is used to treat UC. It’s not overly expensive and if stored right will stay good for years. I can’t remember when I bought my bag, probably 4-5 years ago and I still have it. Have never had to use it but after a friends wether had UC and she couldn’t find it I made sure I had it on hand. 
Another good thing about the minerals and UC is that it does contain some salt. Depending on what mineral you go for probably not a whole lot but salt does encourage water consumption and that will help. 
A lot of times show wethers who have been on high amounts of grain when they get to the fair they don’t like the different water and end up not drinking and end up having issues. I thought about this with a friend I have back east who was having issues with her wether and UC. I told her to ask her vet about throwing a salt block in with him and he said that was a great idea. She did and knock on wood has not had another case since. 
But no matter if you add the block, keep minerals out, or add the AC to it bottom line is you want that correct ratio or as close to it as you can.


----------



## LillyRoseGal (Jul 15, 2018)

Thank you @mariarose!
This is the Mineral that I feed my does, and will be feeding my boys too.








It is simply called "Goat Mineral" by MannaPro.

When i feed grain, it is as a supplement to pasture, or -when the pasture dries up - hay. Sometimes it is Alfalfa.

What I actually feed them is a feed from our feed store. Our feed store only carries Purina, and since I can't find any of the labels to my bags right now... I'd say that off the top of my head it's Medicated Goat Feed, 15% protein. It's medicated for coccidiosis, but it isn't the way I treat- I couldn't get unmedicated. I feed that mixed with Black Oiled Sunflower seeds.

I use a 38 oz. scoup, and the general rule of thumb has been one scoop for a young goat, 2 for an adult, and 2-3 for a milker (I have one doe who actually will stop eating after two scoops- sooo frustrating when I'm trying to get her to gain weight/make Milk!)
The boys would be eating it out of a tray in the pasture, so it wouldn't be as exact- I put the measurements for both in the pan, and if one gets more than their share it is an "oh well" instance. Unless one is getting _significantly_ less than they should. That's how it works with my does.

Do I mix the Amonia Chloride into the grain, or the mineral?


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm familiar with Manna Pro, and imo it isn't that fantastic. I used to use it and did not have good results. A lot of deficiencies. For one thing it has no iodine. None. So you'll need to provide iodized salt or kelp separately from this.

But one thing it has in its favour is that it already has Ammonium Chloride in it. So if you don't switch, you shouldn't have to supplement with more Ammonium Chloride. However, you will have to supplement other things.

I'd switch, if it were my herd. You say your feed store carries Purina Products. Ask them if they carry Purina Wind and Rain, Storm cattle minerals. It looks like this







It is much better quality, again, imo. This next suggestion is Purina 6%, not as good as the Wind and Rain, but better than the Manna Pro. 








The Purina Goat mineral isn't very good at all. It is worse than the Manna Pro.

Almost everyone here at TGS gives a cobalt block (nearly always a blue colour) and this is important for ruminants. One thing it helps with is reproductive health. It will also help with your iodine issues.

If your feed is medicated with Rumensin (for coccidiosis prevention) that should specifically warn it is not for lactating goats, because you will end up drinking rumensin. I don't know about any of the other medications, only the rumensin.

If that really is all you can find, then I'd suggest you ask for either alfalfa pellets, or mix alfalfa pellets with oats, 1 to 1 , for your milk stand feeding. All feed stores I've come across have both of those.

If you look on the guaranteed analysis of your feed, and don't see 2 times as much calcium as you see phosphorus, then adding alfalfa pellets to your feed will help correct that imbalance, and it will also up your protein. Protein is needed to make milk, and so is calcium.

Anyway, that is my 2 cents worth. others will probably chime in here, and soon you'll have lots of 2 cents floating around in your head. Let us know how else we can help


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm going to the next town over today. I'll look at the label for this product








And see if I see any danger signs for goats. It is 14% protein, but it is all vegetation sourced protein, so I assume that means no feather meal, urea, etc. I'll report back on this Purina Product later today, if that's OK with you.


----------



## LillyRoseGal (Jul 15, 2018)

Sure! I’ll poke around at the feed store and see what they have. It’s amazing how much you know!!!


----------



## LillyRoseGal (Jul 15, 2018)

Oh! Also, this goes the same for the girls as for my buckling? (Making triple certain, because that’s the kinda gal I am! )


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, for the does, too. I prefer to keep things simple to start with and then complicate things when and if i get more experience. I have found that complications just happen. I don't have to start out with them.

OK I am home from my long errand trip. I did not forget about you. I looked at the bag of feed from Purina, and I have to say that I'm quite impressed. I would not hesitate to feed it. My TSC had both the pelletized and the textured, the textured was 2 dollars more, the tags were very similar. The smell of the textured was much stronger than the smell of the pellets.

Now, remember, I've never tried it.

What I have found helps the most in getting what I want is to go in with product numbers and manufacturers, and just flat out say, "I want this. You carry such and such brand, when can you get this?"

I'm not nasty, but I go in with the attitude that they'll get it and the only question is, When?

If they say they'd have to order a full pallet (meaning they don't want to order a full pallet), I look super confused and say,

"Now, I have worked retail, in stock rooms when truck deliveries are made (I have, btw) and I know that partial pallets and mixed pallets are a thing for regular suppliers. And I know that these are one of your regular suppliers, because I see their products in here all the time. Now, how soon can you get even a mixed pallet of product here to the store?"

If they still object, then ask how many you will have to guarantee you will buy. You may decide it is worth it to buy 5 bags instead of one, or you may strike out entirely. But more often than not, if I am armed with the product number and assurance, I make progress. If you don't go in with the product number, you will be stymied. So do the research and get the number.

DON'T go in with something vague like, "It's the wormer in the white tube, it has a horse on it." Ended up being a blue tube of calcium with a cow on it. Even more fun, "I got something here 3 years ago. It was right here in this aisle. Where did that stuff go? (that section of the store has been through a reset twice since then, and it was seasonal to begin with.) Or, one of my favourites, "Betty told me she got something here, for her dogs. It started with an A??? You know Betty, right?" 2 guesses how far that will take you with overworked, rushed, staff. Speaking as one of them, I'm ditching you asap. Just know, If you make it easy for you to get the product, you are more likely to get the product.

Hope this helps and hasn't complicated everything for you. I like the feed I went in to examine for you.


----------



## Goat town (May 6, 2018)

I’m always blown away at the knowledge of the people on here


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Oh, me three. This is the BEST site. Period.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

mariarose said:


> I'm going to the next town over today. I'll look at the label for this product
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the tag on it 








It's a good feed, I fed it for many years and everything did great on it. I only stopped using it because I stopped graining my does and I needed the medicated for my kids for cocci :/


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Love all the info.


----------



## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

what i do is 25/ 37.5/37.5 mix of purina cattle minerals 37.5, manna pro goat mineral 37.5, and kelp 25 (just started adding kelp) and i have a selenium block just in case, i feed the purina stocker grower


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Old Post Farm said:


> mix of purina cattle minerals..., manna pro goat mineral..., and kelp...


Now, that's interesting.
1. Which of the Purina cattle minerals have you chosen?
2. Why do you mix them?



Old Post Farm said:


> i have a selenium block just in case


Do you also have a cobalt block?


----------



## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

it is either all pourpose or range mineral (lol might be the same thing) the bag is green like the one you posted above. 

i have been planning on getting a cobalt block but the three tsc stores around me are all out of stock, i think one got a few in but we don't usually go to that one.


----------



## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

i also can't find the wind and rain minerals any where.
to i mix, i put the minerals in an old plastic coffee comtainer (i only have five goats) so they don't collect moisture, it is also easier because you can shake it easilly


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Old Post Farm said:


> it is... all purpose... the bag is green like the one you posted above.


I'm familiar with that one, it is a good value for what you get. I'm SO spoiled for mineral choices that I don't use that one, but I would use it.

I'm genuinely curious though, why you mix (rather than how you mix).

What is it you are getting by mixing the 2 minerals? I want to learn, I'm not criticizing. (I know it sounds like I am and I don't know how to put it so I don't sound like that) I just genuinely don't see an upside since I regard Manna Pro Goat Minerals as over priced, over rated, and under whelming in effect.

And if you could fix that for me, I'll be less ignorant (ever my goal!!!)

I welcome a private message if you'd rather not school me on someone else's thread.



Old Post Farm said:


> i have been planning on getting a cobalt block but... stores around me are all out of stock


Isn't that bewildering? I was just in a Southern States yesterday, doing some comparison shopping, and I asked about a cobalt block. Now, this particular store is ALL about cattle. Anything else hardly gets an honourable mention. "Nope, never heard of that." "Well, it's the blue salt block" (that's me, thinking he's unfamiliar with the word cobalt but would have at least seen the pretty blue block at one point) "Don't know what you're talking about." "OK, Thanks"

For years, I could not get a cobalt block anywhere within driving distance, so I ordered cobalt boluses. I did not like supporting that company, but the goats needed cobalt.


----------



## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

i was looking at the mineral values and found that the cattle mineral seemed better and was a better price, i still had a bag and a half of manna pro so i am using the rest of that then it will be plain cattle minerals for them. using the manna pro also calms my mom down because she doesn't understand that the cattle minerals are ok for the goats, lol

@mariarose i didn't think it soundedd like you were critisizing, and even if you were i would be ok with it because i want to learn and provide the proper nutriton for my animals


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Old Post Farm said:


> i didn't think it soundedd like you were critisizing,


Oh, good. I tried wording my question about 20-30 different ways, and never was happy.

Moms can be such... Mothers, can't we?


----------



## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

lol yes


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Where Manna Pro gets it's boasting rights is in the ingredients. And they are good ingredients. But not so great as to justify not putting enough of them in and charging so much. In my opinion, as always.


----------



## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

i hate how companies can get away with anything they want because it is neccisary


----------



## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

I have a ? about cobalt, how do you know your goats need it? I only have 3 goats including my buck so I would have to brake it up alot, and they are not cheep here, info please


----------



## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

it helps produce red blood cells and improves rumen functiona


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@spidy1 There is not a easy answer to this for you, because the best way most ruminant owners can tell of a cobalt need is to provide it and see the results. Now, you are in Arizona, am I right? I think I remember you in AZ. There is a lot of cobalt mining in AZ and that may mean an adequate soil level for cobalt.

Here is a page that talks about cobalt levels in AZ (and some other places) I put AZ in the State section.

https://mrdata.usgs.gov/catalog/combine.php?term=2-1433&with=1-fUS04

Here is a search for cobalt and goats. https://www.google.com/search?q=cob...rome..69i57.9899j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

My favourite examination of this many faceted topic is https://thriftyhomesteader.com/goats-cobalt/

I know this is not definitive. But I hope it is not completely useless. It's possible you don't need cobalt other than is in the mineral mix you already use.


----------



## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

This is a great thread thank you I learned a lot! Love it when @mariarose puts on links as well to read and learn from. I use manna pro and Redmond minerals but am going to TSC to get some purina for my wethers today. I also didn't know about the cobalt block! Grabbing that too. This was very informative everyone.


----------



## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

THX, I dont think we need it!!!!


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

elvis&oliver said:


> This was very informative everyone.


Thank you. We also learn from your openness and willingness to share.



elvis&oliver said:


> I use manna pro and Redmond minerals


Keep the Redmond, it is an excellent salt. But offer it separately, not mixed with your mineral mix.



elvis&oliver said:


> but am going to TSC to get some purina for my wethers


1. Only for your wethers?
2. Then you'll need to buy (order?) some Ammonium Chloride, because I don't think the Purina minerals has it. Also, @Jessica84 is correct, we need to have it on hand anyway.



elvis&oliver said:


> about the cobalt block! Grabbing that too.


 Not all stores have them. If you can't find it right away, don't panic. Your new mineral mix and the Redmond minerals both have cobalt in them. And with the new mineral mix and the Redmond, you should be fine on the iodine.

P.S. I'd switch the minerals for your does, too, but that is up to you. Again, almost everything I spout is my opinion, usually formed because of having to deal with my own mistakes. But also through reading the really solid science available here at TGS.


----------



## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

@mariarose i feed Redmond seperatly from manna pro free choice to my 6 month pygora wethers and give ammonium chloride in their raisins at night. They get a few shelled peanuts and tiny toss of sunflower seeds. The peanuts must make them thirsty when they get them even as a treat alone they go over and drink water. This was great info I'll be switching the manna to the Purina and continue to feed separate from Redmond.


----------



## LillyRoseGal (Jul 15, 2018)

Alright. I went to my local feed store, and found this.
They don't carry the "name brand" 6% Phosphorus Cattle mineral. They do carry a mineral with 6% Phosphorus, but it is "High Manganse" so, there is more manganse than the 3,600 PPM in the %6 Phosphorus mineral that @mariarose mentioned.
Is that good or bad?

Also, again they don't have the name brand Stock Grower, but they have something with 16% protein called calf grow.
But the medicated goat feed it also 16% protein, and is a little bit more than 1$ cheaper.

Any comments, thoughts, suggestions??


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'll gladly do some looking about the manganese question. I don't have that answer at the top of my head. What was the calcium: phosphorus ratio? and was there approximately 3 to 4 times as much zinc as there was copper? Do you remember at all?

I'm only mentioning Purina products, not because I'm married to them (I'm not) but because you mentioned your store carries Purina. Trying to find things you can easily get.

The medicated goat feed is just fine if you want the medication, or don't mind the medication. You should not use dairy that came from a goat eating rumensin, though, because that isn't good for us, and it does come through.

Good job sleuthing, today. Was it fun?


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

LillyRoseGal said:


> more manganse than the 3,600 PPM in the %6 Phosphorus mineral that @mariarose mentioned.
> Is that good or bad?


I'm finding only references to manganese deficiency, not toxicity. As of now, I'm thinking it's fine. I'll keep looking.

Edit: Still can't find anything on toxicity, but I looked at levels in some of the minerals I'm familiar with and some of them, like Sweetlix MeatMaker 16:8 (which is a terrific mineral) have WAY more than 3500ppm of manganese.

I'll keep looking.


----------



## LillyRoseGal (Jul 15, 2018)

mariarose said:


> What was the calcium: phosphorus ratio? and was there approximately 3 to 4 times as much zinc as there was copper? Do you remember at all?


I didn't think to ask...  about the calcium to Phosphorus. I didn't actually get to look at a label, he had it all on his computer behind the desk. I would've rathered seeing the tag. And I guess I didn't know about the zinc/copper.



mariarose said:


> The medicated goat feed is just fine if you want the medication, or don't mind the medication. You should not use dairy that came from a goat eating rumensin, though, because that isn't good for us, and it does come through.


I don't know what the medication is in the feed, but we haven't been milking since we started this particular feed. 
That's another thing I'll have to ask about.



mariarose said:


> Good job sleuthing, today. Was it fun?


Thank you!  And yes, it was. Usually I'm not to big about doing this type of stuff. It is surprisingly satisfying to do the research to provide for my goats!


----------



## LillyRoseGal (Jul 15, 2018)

mariarose said:


> I'm finding only references to manganese deficiency, not toxicity. As of now, I'm thinking it's fine. I'll keep looking.


Great! Thank you for being _so _diligent about this @mariarose! I really appreciate it.


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

LillyRoseGal said:


> Great! Thank you for being _so _diligent about this @mariarose! I really appreciate it.


You are welcome. It is a nice distraction for me right now, frankly.

I edited my answer above while you were replying, so be sure you go back and read it again.


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

LillyRoseGal said:


> It is surprisingly satisfying to do the research to provide for my goats!


I had a feeling about you!

Now, you have the right to know what you are getting before you get it. ESPECIALLY when there are drugs involved. Gracious yes.

Explain to them you need to see the labels in order to make the best decision on how to spend your money in their store. If you would like us to look at your choices, tell them you would like to take a photograph of the labels that interest you, so you can analyse them and come back with an order.

Ask them if they would like to take you back to look at what they offer, or if they would like to bring bags to the counter for you to look at. If you are willing to do this when they are not swamped I'll bet you anything that they'll take you back. But act like it is going to be one or another, that you can't know how much of what you are going to buy when you have no idea of what they'll offer.

No one in a brick and mortar store has to buy sight unseen. You may as well be ordering online if that were the case.

Be polite, because sometimes they really are busy and you need to find a time when you aren't asking them to lose sales showing you around. But be firm that you need to see those labels, because the better your goats look, the happier you'll be to spend money there.

Happy hunting!


----------



## LillyRoseGal (Jul 15, 2018)

A few more questions came to me as I was re-reading some of these post. I'm out of town right now, so I can't do more research for a few days, but here they are:
Edit: you'll have to click to expand and see the questions. The format didn't turn out how I planned .


> mariarose said:
> 
> 
> > One way to head off UC is to mix Ammonium Chloride in with your favourite minerals, 1 1/2 lbs AC to 25 lbs minerals. It will only help your boys and it won't hurt your girls. Here is a link. https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...argid=kwd-311781481188&ref=pd_sl_1nugfwtds4_e
> ...


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

There is no need to add Ammonium Chloride to Manna Pro. It is making an expensive mineral even more expensive without providing any benefit. You should have AC on hand for treatment, but don't add it to the mineral. Yes, you can give too much AC, but it is far more likely the animal will simply stop eating the mineral mix.

Here is a search on Iodine deficiency in Goats https://www.google.com/search?q=iod...ome..69i57.16277j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Ordinary table salt is also iodized. That's because humans aren't getting enough iodine either. Kelp is rich in iodine. Most sea salt does not have much iodine in it because it is volatile and is easily lost in the evaporative process.

There are a few tiny spots in the US where selenium is high, several more where it is adequate. The rest of us battle to supply enough. Here is an examination of what to do about selenium
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/seleniumdeficiency.html

That cobalt block is what most people get. It has iodine in it.


----------



## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

I'll add that cobalt is hard to overdose, so it is quite safe to play with if you are unsure if you have enough. That also makes it safe to use a cobalt block as your source of iodine, even if you don't need to supplement cobalt.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*I feed Ammonium Chloride daily to my bucks, it is already in their grain, never had any bad come from it. *


----------

