# Stolen goat



## Goatzrule

Anyone in California missing a boer kid? Activists broke I'm and stole a kid a day or two ago.


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## groovyoldlady

Wow...So folks think he stole the kid in order to "rescue" it?


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## Lstein

The sad part here is, he's still a bottle baby. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this guy doesn't have much experience with bottle kids.......and we all know how fragile and touchy bottle babies are.

I don't think there's going to be a happy, skipping into the sunset with rainbows, ending that he wants, unfortunately. 

I get that he thinks he's saving it but more than likely he's not.


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## Goatzrule

In a video he posted he admitted to sneaking into a property to get the kid, rescuing//stolen


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## mariarose

He posted a video???? Do thieves often do that? Do you have a link to it?


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## Lstein

He has a lot of videos regarding this on his facebook page it looks like. I think the one where they were live streaming this "heist?", was removed by facebook.


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## Goatzrule

Im not sure, I keep telling people to save that video before he deletes it


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## Goatzrule

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10215582490659197


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## toth boer goats

It is sad about the life of a meat animal.
I feel the same way but, do respect those who choose to use them for what they were meant for.
He actually stole the kid.
Not all kids are meant for meat.

He says, breeders take the kids away from the mama at 6 months old.
Well what did he do? He took this kid away before weaning age.

He should be sent to jail for theft and trespassing.


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## Goatzrule

Pam are you familiar with any breeders down there that could be missing a kid? Some farms are so big im sure they wouldnt notice one kid gone. Maybe they could catch the guy on not having a scrapies tag, you might be more knowledge able then I am about CA laws


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## billiejw89

wow, I hope he is held accountable for his actions. Scary to think about larger groups with trailers like he talked about in the video.


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## Goatzrule

All they said is that the kid is from a family farm


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## Goatzrule

The police wont do anything until the farm and owners are found


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## billiejw89

I hope they find the owners and get this stopped before something very bad happens. 
Someone could end up getting hurt or killed snooping around on someone's property and stealing livestock. He is influencing others to do what he has done. 
I feel bad for the baby goat, I hope he will be ok.


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## Goatzrule

Is the a boer goat show circuit maybe they could track down the owners


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## groovyoldlady

The video is gone now....


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## Goatzrule

Fortunately some people got a recording of it before it was deleted


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## Ranger1

There are more cases of these jerks stealing goats being shared on FB...


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## Jubillee

Why put it on FB?? You're just admitting to theft and when the owners find out, then there is your guilty admission. 

I know they think they are doing something worthy, but that poor baby may die in his care now taking him away from the mama and expecting him to magically take to the bottle. So then it was pointless anyway. Aside from the fact that one being "saved" vs the thousands still getting processed...how does he know that little baby wouldn't have become a show goat or a pet since it's a family farm?


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## mariarose

toth boer goats said:


> He should be sent to jail for theft and trespassing.


Not to mention Cruelty to Animals and Animal Endangerment. Bit of irony there, I know, but it fits.

I'm so shocked that a thief would put out a video.


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## Lstein

I really hope they took the little guy someplace where they maybe know what to do for a bottle baby instead of taking selfies and self congratulating themselves. 

Ironic that the baby is now the victim, and is in far more immediate danger than he was.


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## mariarose

Goatzrule said:


> The police wont do anything until the farm and owners are found


I presume if those police see evidence of other crimes, (like breaking and entering) they'll do nothing until the owners are located? If someone posts a video confessing a kidnapping, they'll do nothing until the family is located???

I'm just so flummoxed.


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## Jessica84

Ugh I’ve been fuming since I saw this! That kid is going to DIE or starve for quite awhile because he is attached to his mother! But all the bleeding hearts are patting him on the back and I’m sure sending him money because he did such a wonderful thing because they are freaking clueless!! 
I won’t go into all the detail but someone down the road “saved” a old mans cows. Those poor cows are slowly starving to death because that guy doesn’t have the first clue about cows. He is the perfect example of a lot of people who are rescuers aka thieves! If they want to save something why not buy it? Oh I need to stop before I give myself a heart attack


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## Korita

mariarose said:


> Not to mention Cruelty to Animals and Animal Endangerment. Bit of irony there, I know, but it fits.
> 
> I'm so shocked that a thief would put out a video.


As my father says.... "Common sense isn't."


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## ALBoerGoats

It's ridiculous what they have done.
I dare them to try to step foot on my property. They'd be greeted by a mean rottie and a gun. They clearly have no idea how much hard work and love goes into raising these animals. They should be put in prison.


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## Jessica84

Border collie and gun here too! This is what I HATE. Dairy farmers are bad, evil and heartless because they rip new born calfs away from their mother. What is the difference here? Why can’t he take that money that people donate and buy actual goats that really are going to butcher? If they want to actually save animals the right way good for them! In his video everyone who mentioned that kids mother he gave a link to how to send him money so he can save other animals. But he isn’t buying them! He’s taking them. And these people who do want to support saving animals are getting scammed!


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## Goatzrule

There was mention in their live video of a circle 4 farm but can't find any with that name in CA


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## Suzanne_Tyler

Wow. That is awful


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## Tenacross

A friend of mine posted this on FB this morning and I watched this kook. I was thinking about it this afternoon while I was driving home from work and it came to me that as dishonest as this guy is about nearly everything, what's to say he even stole this kid? I think there's a good chance he borrowed a bottle baby from someone and made the video, lying about everything. In the video, the guy is going on and on about what a brave act it was like he was in on the raid to kill Osama Bin Laden or something. The kid is sleeping in his lap like a bottle baby does in all your friend's FB pictures of their favorite bottle baby that currently lives in the house. If it was a dam raised kid, I doubt it would be lying quitely like that. I doubt this guy has ever even seen a goat farm before.


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## Tenacross

*I was wrong.* There's a new video of them unsuccessfully trying to get the kid to take a bottle. The genius is saying the kid has a virus in his eye and he has lice. He says problems like this never get taken care of at farms.


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## Jessica84

Yeah I saw that. That was the best looking virus in the eye I ever seen! I mean if I were to guess I would say it might just be a runny eye! Well crap! I have allergies and my eyes are running someone might come kidnap me! 
You could be totally right and this was just some BS thing and he didn’t even take the kid but bought it. One breeder claims the actual place it’s staying contacted them to find the owner because even the people who support this is upset they took it from its mother. I asked what the difference between this and dairy cattle is and how starving to death is better then butchering and my comment vanished!


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## Goats Rock

The world sure is full of mis guided individuals! (Boy, I'm glad I don't have FB! It's hard enough hearing about all the idiots that post their stupidity!)


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## Deborah Haney

....I'm gonna go fix my barn cam and reconsider getting an LGD for 2 goats.


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## MilkandMeatgoats

I'd like to see someone try to steel a goat here! We have four Great Pyrenees here and raise a litter every year, so for several months we'll have as many as 15! Go ahead a make one of those kids scream (or the adults for that matter) if you want to on this little family farm...you're gonna find out what family is about! They know who's invited and who's not


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## mariarose

Deborah Haney said:


> ....I'm gonna go fix my barn cam and reconsider getting an LGD for 2 goats.


I have some pups you can have.


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## Goatzrule

They had a video of them actually taking the kid from the farm at like 11:00 at night. Glad i dont live too close to my neighbors but definitely going to have some sort of security


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## Goatzrule

The "rescue" video is still up on their website apparently, hopefully there is more information on it that gives the names of the farm


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## loggyacreslivestock

They have a part in the video where they are trying to feed it bananas and carrots because it won't take the bottle. I'm so steaming mad. Not only did they steal it, from what they say is a FAMILY farm, but now it's going to die. That could be some kids favorite goat!


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## loggyacreslivestock

I'd like to lock them inside their house, take all their food, and leave them with only meat to eat. Just because they don't agree with others choices of food, doesn't mean they can take other people's food or livelihood.


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## Lstein

It's very sad that the baby is no longer featuring in their propaganda shots, I think we all know why.....2? days without eating.  Trying to feed it bananas... it really is sickening.


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## mariarose

do any of you have a link?


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## Goatzrule

https://www.directactioneverywhere.com/theliberationist/


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## mariarose

Goatzrule said:


> https://www.directactioneverywhere.com/theliberationist/


Thank you.


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## Goatzrule

I apparently he has pneumonia now. Poor kid was better off with his mom


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## Lstein

Where is he mentioning this? I've missed it so far from scanning is facebook page.


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## Deborah Haney

mariarose said:


> I have some pups you can have.


Thanks but I don't think it's an option right now, I was just making a point.


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## Goatzrule

Not sure someone said he said that, i havent really been looking for it


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## MilkandMeatgoats

Goatzrule said:


> https://www.directactioneverywhere.com/theliberationist/


These folks should stick to legal activities and plant a garden and feed the hungry and stay out of things they don't fully understand. I too am completely against animal cruelty but the fact is we aren't all vegetarians or vegans. It is not the small family farmer that these folks are stealing from that are mistreating their livestock. All of my critters are spoiled rotten! God gave us a responsibility to care for the animals that would eventually sustain us and what we do here on our farm is very different than what is done in the corporate farming world. Evil acts never change the world for the better.


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## MilkandMeatgoats

Goatzrule said:


> I apparently he has pneumonia now. Poor kid was better off with his mom


Wonder if someone's gonna fork out for the vet bill and have someone with some knowledge take care of the poor thing! Any vet in their right mind would probably assume custody of the animal and deliver the poor kid straight to one of their current goat farming clients for proper care!


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## mariarose

MilkandMeatgoats said:


> we aren't all vegetarians or vegans


And those of us who do happen to be vegetarians still keep carnivorous animals. If you have a dog or a cat, then what are you feeding it? Dogs are on the carnivorous side of the omnivore scale. Cats are OBLIGATE carnivores.

I completely agree with all you said, not just the part I highlighted. I am having a hard time with the police deciding they don't have to investigate a confessed crime at this point. To quote Stephen Fry in one of his debates, "Then what are you FOR???"


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## Goats Rock

Someone needs to contact the local tv stations, etc. explain why goat kids need momma, etc. (unless bottle kids, you know what I mean).

Those thieves are domestic terrorists. The same as PETA and HSUSA. They are preying on Americans.

I just looked at their website. Total bunch of whack jobs. Whew!


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## Kath G.

mariarose said:


> And those of us who do happen to be vegetarians still keep carnivorous animals. If you have a dog or a cat, then what are you feeding it? Dogs are on the carnivorous side of the omnivore scale. Cats are OBLIGATE carnivores.


Okay, but you have to do the intellectual work of following that logic all the way to it's conclusion in order to see an issue here...

Don't even get me started on PETA, I think they're not even intellectually honest with themselves or others. They're nothing but a sham; the numbers are there and documented for anyone to see, I fail to understand how they still exist and are sent any monetary donations at all.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/05/pets-shelter-euthanization-rate_n_6612490.html


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## mariarose

Kath G. said:


> Okay, but you have to do the intellectual work of following that logic all the way to it's conclusion in order to see an issue here...


What am I missing here? I thought I was saying that even those of us who ARE vegetarians keep carnivores, so we need to be honest about that and allow producers to produce meat. If I said anything other than that, I did not mean to. If we eat meat, if we keep pets that eat meat, if we are not against controlling others in what they eat or what others keep as pets, then we need to allow producers to produce meat. And I've been pretty clear from my very first shocked comment that I regard these people as thieves. Tell me what I'm missing and I promise I'll consider and address it.



Kath G. said:


> Don't even get me started on PETA, I think they're not even intellectually honest with themselves or others.


My personal experience with PETA is that the members have been ignorant but willing to listen and to learn. No, I'm certain that not all members are like that. Only that the organization is not a sham. Because we take oxen everywhere we go, and used to take horses and pigs as well, we dealt with official reps of PETA often. They ALWAYS listened, and were respectful. I think PETA gets blamed for stuff that other, less ethical, organizations pull. That's my take, anyway, from a lot of one on one convos


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## Lstein

So to answer my own question about where more videos of it are; they aren’t on his page but that organizations page. If anyone was curious.


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## macmad

This world is full of its share of stupid. If I find someone snooping around my place, they will be met by my pitbull and and the wrong end of my AR-15.


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## Jessica84

PETA has been outed that they are the biggest animal abusers! Oh gosh I need to find those links. The sheep that was skinned alive for their wool? That was petas doing. They have also “saved” so many animals and gotten money for their bravery and good hearts and turned around and KILLED them! Never gave them a chance at a life like they claimed they would they flat out killed them. There was a huge article of someone who quit PETA over it, I need to find that. 
What I don’t understand here is it’s so evil to have a animal, that will get a fast death, then feed someone or something, but yet there really are animals that need help, that are suffering. There this woman I no longer sell to. She doesn’t have shelter for her goats, when we had a storm her Goats kidded in the rain and the kids drowned in the mud. THOSE animals need to be saved! My mare I got years ago I got her half starved to death because the owner was old and got hurt and couldn’t feed the horses. NO ONE would help that lady till she got better. Why can’t they go in and help people like her? My mare was repoed by animal control and if no one was willing to help the lady yes they should have been taken but how many more situations like that are out there? Of course this jerk doesn’t care about loosing his ability to be a lawyer because people are paying for everything he has thinking they are saving animals and that’s not right! I honestly think the only reason he “saved” this kid was because it was cute and it could get more people to give money because it was a baby that was saved. And it’s that poor baby that is suffering. I just wish people did their homework on who and what they are supporting.


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## Kath G.

mariarose said:


> What am I missing here?


My sense of sarcasm. Not directed at you, and I'm truly sorry you felt that way; I'm saying that many people in the animal rights movement fail to follow the logic to it's conclusion.

I'm really glad you've had good interaction with PETA people. It's a large enough organization that there will be diversity of thought, mission, etc, etc; but, their shelter management where they operate a physical shelter is rotten. They've been caught putting healthy puppies and kittens to sleep without any attempt to find a home for them, while they claim they only euthanize "unadoptable" animals. They routinely euthanize over 80% of the cats they take in, and around 70% of the dogs. They will not say what their criteria for being a candidate for euthanasia or adoption are. My claim that they are a sham is limited to PETA's physical shelter and their practices.


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## Lstein

I think the best thing people can do, that want to donate to animal welfare places, is to just donate to your local shelter. Much easier to see where that money goes and feel the impact more. :2c:


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## mariarose

Kath G. said:


> They will not say what their criteria for being a candidate for euthanasia or adoption are


Very dodgy, to say the least.



Kath G. said:


> My claim that they are a sham is limited to PETA's physical shelter and their practices.


With which I have had no exposure to the slightest degree.



Kath G. said:


> I'm saying that many people in the animal rights movement fail to follow the logic to it's conclusion.


I completely agree with that statement.


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## mariarose

Jessica, I want to be very clear I'm understanding you here.



Jessica84 said:


> The sheep that was skinned alive for their wool? That was petas doing.


I know that PETA has videotaped lambs being skinned alive and it has been attributed to a footwear company. Are you saying that it is PETA causing it all along?


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## toth boer goats

All very sad. 

Theft should not be condoned.
Whatever happened to the law of steeling livestock? Which a boer goat is considered livestock.

I also thought a video in that way, is suspicion and cops can get a subpoena to go to this persons place to investigate.

Scrapies tags can be cut out of ears.
I also know of a case where the ears are cut off if they are tattooed when a goat was stolen. 

I don't know the breeders that way in California, it is semi far from me.


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## lottsagoats1

Wow, show up on my property and attempt to steal an "abused" animal and you'll end up meeting an angry LGD and either an irate owner or her equally irate HUGE muscular son, or all 3 at once!


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## Kath G.

As far as PETA is concerned, can't speak to the lamb situation, but falsifying records, lying about what they're doing, stealing animals and killing perfectly healthy adoptable animals, yup. Among other things.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/doug...ower-peta-employee-allegations_b_6648696.html
The No Kill Advocacy Center (I believe they're vegan and truly love animals, are not a sham; they have a ton of documentation here) http://www.nathanwinograd.com/category/the-truth-about-peta/
http://www.nathanwinograd.com/another-grisly-year-at-peta/


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## Jessica84

mariarose said:


> Jessica, I want to be very clear I'm understanding you here.
> 
> I know that PETA has videotaped lambs being skinned alive and it has been attributed to a footwear company. Are you saying that it is PETA causing it all along?


I don't recall it being for foot wear, but I can not find it right now!!! I know that what it was about was a lamb being skinned alive and it was claimed that the farmers do this but in THAT video it was actually a PETA person skinning the animal alive.


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## Jessica84

Lstein said:


> I think the best thing people can do, that want to donate to animal welfare places, is to just donate to your local shelter. Much easier to see where that money goes and feel the impact more. :2c:


Even then do your homework. Mine won't get another dime from me! We do though have a cat rescue place that is a no kill rescue and I will support them 100% and hope one day they do more then just cats. In case anyone hasn't noticed I'm very skeptical of most rescue places but they just go over and beyond to show that what they say they are doing is true and they really do care about the cats. I personally will never adopt from them because I don't agree with their adoption agreement (house must be approved first, need to make sure later on your taking care of the cat blah blah) but that doesn't mean others are not ok with the agreement especially since they adopt so many cats out!


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## MilkandMeatgoats

Jessica84 said:


> I don't recall it being for foot wear, but I can not find it right now!!! I know that what it was about was a lamb being skinned alive and it was claimed that the farmers do this but in THAT video it was actually a PETA person skinning the animal alive.


This might have been about the supposed making of ugg boots??? I seem to remember something about this several years back.


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## Deborah Haney

We live in the city. I think about having Max's ears tattooed every day. Ruby's are because she's registered and they have dog tags but my mom is always worried about people stealing them because they're cute and the size of cocker spaniels. Their tags can be removed, tattoos are a little more permanent. I'm all for animal welfare but animal rights activists scare the ever living out of me. I would be a screaming mess if someone took my kids. I wonder if you can charge goat thieves with intentional infliction of emotional distress... or kidnapping...


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## mariarose

Not kidnapping, no. That is reserved for humans.

I wonder if you can microchip pet goats, like you can dogs. I mean, I am certain you can, but would a vet even know to check for a chip?


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## Goatzrule

I'm starting to think we're looking for the owners in the wrong place, just because his profile says one place doesn't mean that's where the kid came from. Id like to be able to put it on the news because surely the owner watches the news. I'm starting to wonder why the owner isn't looking


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## MilkandMeatgoats

mariarose said:


> Not kidnapping, no. That is reserved for humans.
> 
> I wonder if you can microchip pet goats, like you can dogs. I mean, I am certain you can, but would a vet even know to check for a chip?


You can, we do microchip, and a vet should know to check. It's a pretty common practice with registered breeds now. Chip is in their tail


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## Korita

MilkandMeatgoats said:


> You can, we do microchip, and a vet should know to check. It's a pretty common practice with registered breeds now. Chip is in their tail


I'm curious why they put the chip in their tail instead of top of the neck like dogs? When we are scanning a dog for a chip with the rescue and don't find one around the neck we do scan about every other part of them to see if there's one somewhere else. But I wouldn't think to scan the tail. But I've never thought of chipping a goat either lol


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## mariarose

MilkandMeatgoats said:


> a vet should know to check. It's a pretty common practice with registered breeds now.


Thanks. I'm not sure my area of KY has caught on yet!

I've been reading the blog entries on the Direct Action site. Pretty interesting reading because it shows a different thought process and focus than I'm used to, and the way they use language to pre-emptively block other POVs. There are some highly intelligent people involved in that writing. There is no way that I have seen to interact with the group other than to agree with them in some way. You can't ask questions for clarity, for instance, but you have multiple invitations to donate or to join. You have to agree with what is presented on the surface before you are allowed to interact. It feels... cultish. There is intelligence at work there.


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## MilkandMeatgoats

Korita said:


> I'm curious why they put the chip in their tail instead of top of the neck like dogs? When we are scanning a dog for a chip with the rescue and don't find one around the neck we do scan about every other part of them to see if there's one somewhere else. But I wouldn't think to scan the tail. But I've never thought of chipping a goat either lol


I leave placement up to the anatomy experts! I just put them where I'm told.


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## Lstein

If you google his name, the word cult comes up a lot actually. (thought I'd mention it since you seen that too). I haven't read any of the articles/blog posts yet that mention it though.

I noticed that in a lot of the comments on facebook are things such as "why are you even here if you don't agree with us". Oh right, we just need to leave you all to your echo chamber. Just no attempt at all to see where anybody else is coming from or to do just a smidge of research.


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## mariarose

Lstein said:


> I haven't read any of the articles/blog posts yet that mention it though.


No, they don't mention that. I was just describing what the verbal manipulation and the opacity of the website made me feel, and "cultish" seemed to be a good word to describe it and be understood by people who may not have had my life experiences.



Lstein said:


> "why are you even here if you don't agree with us".


Dialogue is becoming an endangered species, that's for certain sure.


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## Lstein

mariarose said:


> No, they don't mention that. I was just describing what the verbal manipulation and the opacity of the website made me feel, and "cultish" seemed to be a good word to describe it and be understood by people who may not have had my life experiences.


 I guess there's just the one, not sure why I thought there were more when I looked yesterday. This is the one I was referencing.


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## mariarose

Because of the font and background, that is going to take me a little bit of time to read. I'm also going to have to be extremely careful for myself. I was already being triggered by the DxE site. I did skim your link, and WOW.

I really feel for both of them now, the kid AND the human. Heartbreaking, but I can completely see how this could happen now.

I wish the family farm that lost the kid could be found.


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## Kath G.

Korita said:


> I'm curious why they put the chip in their tail instead of top of the neck like dogs? When we are scanning a dog for a chip with the rescue and don't find one around the neck we do scan about every other part of them to see if there's one somewhere else. But I wouldn't think to scan the tail. But I've never thought of chipping a goat either lol


Behind the cartilage of the ear and in the tail web are both accepted sites, per ADGA. The reason I use the tail web is that it's looser skin (easier to insert, imho) and the goat vet I know sees less migration issues with the chip there.


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## Jessica84

mariarose said:


> Because of the font and background, that is going to take me a little bit of time to read. I'm also going to have to be extremely careful for myself. I was already being triggered by the DxE site. I did skim your link, and WOW.
> 
> I really feel for both of them now, the kid AND the human. Heartbreaking, but I can completely see how this could happen now.
> 
> I wish the family farm that lost the kid could be found.


What do you mean you have been triggered by them? Do you need back up or some kind? Lol 
He's a very smart man, probably why he made it to be a attorney but he's also not. He made a video of how farmers where threatening him and it was things like "if someone were to steal my goat they would have buckshot in their butt" but not one person said "I'm going to shoot you" saying you would defend your livestock against thief's is not a direct threat to him! Maybe he sucked at being a attorney and that's why he has started this scam.
Another thing that REALLY bothers me is he had to of gone in and looked these places over before he went in. Yes I have a dog that will bite anyone he doesn't know and yes I have a gun but do I really want my dog put down because he bit someone even though he shouldn't have been there? Do I really want to shoot someone and deal with that? No I really don't. I am seriously considering, since they seem to have a branch right down the road from me, to start meeting people away from home or right st the gate away from my main animals. Especially with all the attention they got off a cute little goat, and lets face it baby goats are as cute or more cut then a puppy. I have NOTHING to hide but in the video where he rescued that last goat those were healthy looking Goats! Everything was clean and it was a nice looking place. This baby goat looks nothing but healthy to me, runny eye and all! And they still got pats on the back for taking them


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## mariarose

Kath G. said:


> migration issues


Sigh.... Undocumented migration issues. Where will it end (up)???


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## Lstein

Agreed, he's pretty smart in the regards that he says and shows exactly what his audience wants to see/here. Able to twist words and quotes just right.

It really is unfortunate that he's decided to prey on small family farms (easier, less risk, same publicity rewards?) instead of corporate farming; which I don't think many people can defend some of those places and something should change there. Example, what Temple Grandin has been doing.


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## mariarose

Jessica84 said:


> What do you mean you have been triggered


I have some mental health issue because of life experiences (really, all in my family do) and what I saw on the site was similar enough to some of that deep psychological manipulation that I could feel my body reacting like I was back in that situation. It is something we can learn to manage, but don't just "get over" and something that can remind us of it "triggers" the same reactions.



Jessica84 said:


> saying you would defend your livestock against thief's is not a direct threat to him!


Yes, intelligence is not necessarily honest, I agree.



Jessica84 said:


> they seem to have a branch right down the road from me,


Now, THAT IS SCARY! You are very wise.



Jessica84 said:


> all the attention they got off a cute little goat,


Yes, they definitely have gotten what they wanted



Jessica84 said:


> And they still got pats on the back for taking them


Yeah.... that says it all, doesn't it?


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## mariarose

Lstein said:


> what Temple Grandin has been doing.


Temple Grandin is one of my heroines. Is heroine still in use today, or is it always heroes? Ah shoot. I'll just go all PC and say Temple Grandin is one of my heropersons!



Lstein said:


> small family farms (easier, less risk, same publicity rewards?)


 That's my take on it too. This person wants control, not change.


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## Kath G.

At this point in my life, I'm a cynic. Follow the $$$. Early on, he also criticized PETA for their cruelty and death squads.... but after the PETA president praised him and brought his organization national attention this fall (also national exposure and donations, to be sure) he changed his tune. 
http://www.whypetaeuthanizes.org/direct-action-everywhere/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/killing-animals-petas-open-secret_us_59e78243e4b0e60c4aa36711


----------



## Goatzrule

I dont even want to keep reading his posts, I just wish the owner would show up


----------



## Jessica84

mariarose said:


> I have some mental health issue because of life experiences (really, all in my family do) and what I saw on the site was similar enough to some of that deep psychological manipulation that I could feel my body reacting like I was back in that situation. It is something we can learn to manage, but don't just "get over" and something that can remind us of it "triggers" the same reactions.
> 
> Yes, intelligence is not necessarily honest, I agree.
> 
> Now, THAT IS SCARY! You are very wise.
> 
> Yes, they definitely have gotten what they wanted
> 
> Yeah.... that says it all, doesn't it?


I don't know why it had to quote the whole dang thing! 
The situation is upsetting but don't make yourself so upset you get sick! I don't even have triggers and I've had to just step back because I am getting so upset. 
In all this though he has lost a good amount of supporters! And I'm happy to see that there are people with enough common sense and can look past their love of animals just enough to see that what he did wasn't out of love, it wasn't better for the kid. I brought up the whole dairy calfs taken from their mom before. I personally hate the idea of taking a baby from its mother BUT I know that it has to be done! Not just money wise but for the pure fact those calfs wouldn't make it with their real mothers tending to them. I never really believed this till my aunt decided she wanted to raise cattle. That alone is hilarious but she bought some holstines. They had their calfs and half walked away and the other half licked the rocks! 
But this guy had no reason to take that baby. It wasn't starving, it was being fed, ok so he will be pulled from mom at 6 months old, at least it can eat more then milk at that age! So he really has dug himself the start of a grave over this. 
I just wish they realized not everyone is going to stop eating meat. 90% of my diet is meat! I'm not stopping lol so why not focus more on making sure that those animals have a wonderful life before it ends? If they are worried about how they are butcher then focus on that. These are two things that I think everyone wants to see and make sure happens except for the few cruel people who do allow it.


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## Goatzrule

Its so frustrating when we state how much we love our animals or show care for them and they twist it by saying "you only love them cause....." or " you dont love them if you kill them" Theres just no logic


----------



## goathiker

Jessica said... There's a branch right down the way...

Jessica, didn't you have a kid completely disappear without a trace a couple to a few years ago? If I remember right you thought it had gotten out and eaten by a coyote maybe...


----------



## Goatzrule

goathiker Ive been thinking of the same thing! Wasnt a theory that someone took it to eat? But I would have thought more would go missing


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## Jessica84

goathiker said:


> Jessica said... There's a branch right down the way...
> 
> Jessica, didn't you have a kid completely disappear without a trace a couple to a few years ago? If I remember right you thought it had gotten out and eaten by a coyote maybe...


Oh gosh I'm gonna he sitting out there guarding them like a little crack head now! I did have one vanish! I forgot all about her! I thought she squeezed threw or under the fence. She was the only one but i also hooked up the hot fence after that. At that point I just had my old dog that couldn't hear. Now I have this dog that was my dad's and adopted me and he takes guarding very serious especially his goats. He will even go threw the hot fence just to be with them so if that was the case they are going to have a serious issue on their hands if they try it again


----------



## goathiker

Well, all of this just confirms that I will be building Fort Knox this summer. Off to look at proximity alarms...


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## Jessica84

I think I’m just going with a pen at the start of the driveway. My driveway is fairly long and has roads leading off of it to get to different sections of the ranch so if they want to walk down random dirt roads trying to find me they are welcome to. I’m sure it will look like I’m hiding something, I’ve already had people question me why I have a catch pen with the for sale kids in it away from the herd but to be honest I really don’t care any more. This world is going crazy fast!


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## goathiker

Just tell them that it's for biosecurity reasons because they can give your herd a disease from their shoes that have been in public places.


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## Goatzrule

You should have a driveway alarm, it will go off every time someone drives over it in your driveway.


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## Goatzrule

We all should be aware of animals rights activists in our area


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## Goatzrule

Jessica is there a facebook page for the group? Maybe they posted about it


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## mariarose

Goatzrule said:


> We all should be aware of animals rights activists in our area


We should be aware of criminals in our area. I agree. I changed the wording slightly because some of us are working to secure rights for animals and the nature we all depend upon, but we aren't in any way a danger.

I never knew Direct Action existed, My heart breaks for those young, idealistic, passionate, misguided people who get caught up in that criminal organization. I see how it can happen. And yes, my heart breaks for the animals they steal, and my heart breaks for the families they are harming with their criminal activity. Under the rallying cry of "Animal Rights!"

You guys have also allowed me to see PETA more clearly. I still don't think badly of the representatives I've met and dealt with personally. But now I see they are only a face, a façade, not truly representative.

Some of us aren't evil, though. But we are working for animals, and nature, to have protected and recognized rights.

I'm glad Jessica knows about this danger at her doorstep. AND I wish with all my heart it wasn't there. She does not deserve this.

All I have to deal with are regular meth-head thieves, and people who don't understand property rights. Because their granddaddy used to hunt here, that means they can. I'm so lucky. I see that now.


----------



## MellonFriend

My word, all of this makes me angry and sad all at the same time. All of us should be for animal rights, but not to the point that we turn into criminals ourselves. I hope I don't have any problems in my area, but I doubt I will since some idiot would have to be stupid enough to climb our chain-link fence, but I'm wondering if I am underestimating peoples stupidity? Do you think these types of morons would go after a small backyard organization or just the obvious ones? It makes me want to coat my fence in warning signs.


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## Jessica84

Well no one is going to drive down it’s a locked gate but the place is just 2 gates and the barbwire which is easy to hop over. No one can see my house from the road and actually that earth net I think it’s called you can’t see the house either because or the trees. 
I like your idea Jill! Before I flat out told them because I don’t want people screwing with my Goats. I had one guy rope my old goat and a kid throw dirt in a does face and smacked her every time she got close. Both times I was so livid I told them to leave. The doe hated my kids after and I had to sell her. 
I don’t know if there is a FB page for the one that is close. When I was on the DX whatever webpage it lists each state and city they have a branch in Fresno which is right down the road. Now granted it’s a big city with a bunch of other farmers they could go after so it’s not like I’m the only one at risk here. But between the weirdos and now this I think I would feel better about my idea.
Mariarose- I’m sure just like every “group” of people they are not all the same. I guess I have been just as bad as the activist on lumping them all together like they do farmers. I think a lot as you said have good intentions and just misguided and ones that are totally out to save animals the right way. The same as there are farmers and ranchers that care for their animals, even more then they do for themselves and there are some that are totally clueless and couldn’t care less about the quality of life their animals live. Just to me I think most farmers and ranchers are good and the majority of animal activist are nuts, but that’s my opinion lol this guy I have no doubt he is only after the fame. When he deleted my comment of how taking that kid is any different dairy farmers taking a calf at birth which he is very much against that totally sealed my opinion on him and showed he didn’t want his followers asking that same question


----------



## mariarose

MellonFriend said:


> Do you think these types of morons would go after a small backyard organization or just the obvious ones?


I think Lstein nailed it.



Lstein said:


> It really is unfortunate that he's decided to prey on small family farms (easier, less risk, same publicity rewards?) instead of corporate farming;


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## MellonFriend

Well that's scary. I'll be getting LGDs as soon as I can. And I'm probably safe because my property is not visible from any main road, but still, I'm glad I live in western NC.


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## Lstein

Same, glad that I'm in the middle of nowhere and off of the main road.


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## mariarose

Jessica84 said:


> But between the weirdos and now this I think I would feel better about my idea.


I think you and goathiker have ideas that are excellent even without the weirdos.



Jessica84 said:


> just like every "group" of people they are not all the same


This is a very human trait, to see groups we don't belong to as monolithic and homogenous. We are still very tribal in our thinking, with all our advances.



Jessica84 said:


> The same as there are farmers and ranchers that care for their animals, even more then they do for themselves and there are some that are totally clueless and couldn't care less about the quality of life their animals live.


And there are even more, who DO care, but are caught in an economic trap which forces callousness and cruelty onto them. Watch the movie, Fast Food Nation, for a clearer understanding of what I mean. It isn't even so much about how we treat livestock, it is more about how we treat humans who become just economic cogs.

Lots of Tyson farms here. And processing plants too. Once you've been caught by the corporate promises and contracts, which only they can change at will, you have no choices. You WILL comply, or lose your farm. If you speak out, you'll be sued, and you'll lose. Once you are dependent on that processing job, that poultry keeps going, and you are not going to stop that line simply because you have a run of chickens that are still alive.

I see it this way. Recognizing animal rights is the only way to ensure human rights. All human atrocities ever have happened only after humans were allowed to be called sub human. Rwanda, Sudan, Poland, Native American genocide, Not to mention the big one... the Holocaust. None of it happened until some people were allowed to call other people one animal or another.

So I want all animals to have basic rights, including us. I want the right to a quick merciful death, to not be processed while still alive, to not live in a cage, to not be experimented on, to not have my suffering be entertainment. All these things do happen to animals, they do or have happened to humans.

That is why I am a peaceful, non criminal animal activist.

Just a different point of view.



Jessica84 said:


> showed he didn't want his followers asking that same question


Yes, I did pick up on the inability to have a give and take with that organization. You either agree with them or you are completely deflected. HUGE red flag there.

You don't have to convince me they are a criminal organization. One that does not care about any rights what so ever.


----------



## Lstein

mariarose said:


> And there are even more, who DO care, but are caught in an economic trap which forces callousness and cruelty onto them. Watch the movie, Fast Food Nation, for a clearer understanding of what I mean. It isn't even so much about how we treat livestock, it is more about how we *treat humans who become just economic cogs.*


 I'll have to watch that one, I've seen Food Inc, and thought that was very eye opening for the bolded reason. In addition to the rest of the reasons, but that one is something I hadn't really heard much of before watching that documentary.


----------



## mariarose

MellonFriend said:


> I'll be getting LGDs as soon as I can


I have pups.... Lots of pups... Pretty fierce pups...


----------



## mariarose

Lstein said:


> I'll have to watch that one


Fast Food Nation is kinda different. It is a movie, not a documentary, but it is like a dramatization of official reports. At first, you don't really know what is going on with the different groups of people, but then things start being pulled together and you see all the connections. If you are used to movie endings having a neatly tied up resolution, this won't be like that.

It's complicated. Like life.

A movie (not a documentary) about Temple Grandin made me stand up and cheer. As I was in my living room, that is less impressive than it sounds.

I did really like Food, Inc. The Corporation was astoundingly educational. By the time I finished Earthlings I was struggling for breath. Forks Over Knives and Vegucated I found extremely simplistic. Actually, Vegucated I found worthless. King Corn was good, and funny. The Garden was both inspiring and sad. Dirt, The Movie, was eye opening, funny, and inspiring.

I'm a documentary junkie. I especially like documentaries that dig into multiple facets of an issue or a subject. But I like some that don't as well, if they give me lots of sources for that point of view. The above is an honest assessment of several films that touch on how and what we eat, and where it comes from. I've probably forgotten a few. Food, Inc. is one of the best


----------



## chowar2

I haven't posted here in a while, been too busy raising goats and beef cattle, lol.

This thread came across my email. I saw the original livestream video on FB, then a followup he posted on an activist site. I suspect this guy is lying about stealing the goat. I'd bet he bought it and has made the video about stealing it to stir up support for his activism. The first video he made, the kid was quietly laying on his lap, obviously a kid that had been handled. The second video showed him trying to get it to take a bottle and the kid would have nothing to do with it. The kid wanted his mother. So, a kid that had been handled would be missed by the owner. I've heard plenty of owners selling a kid right off it's mother at an age it would be switched to a bottle(not a great idea, btw). I'd love to see him exposed as a fraud to the activist group because it's apparent the police and lawyers aren't going to punish him as a thief.


----------



## Damfino

Yikes! This thread makes me thankful I live far, far away from the nutty part of Colorado. The crazy folks up in Boulder made it illegal to put a horse down with a bullet in our state. I guess they've no appreciation for how long it actually takes to stop a horse's heart with chemicals. Did it once and I'm never using chemical euthanasia for a horse again. 

I guess those folks in Boulder also believe that everyone lives half an hour from a vet. No one in their right mind would make a horse with a broken leg or a twisted bowel suffer for two hours while they wait for a vet to arrive. The good thing about laws like this is that they're completely unenforceable unless you live next-door to an animal activist, and luckily most of us don't. I don't believe there's a sheriff in the state who would enforce it either, but it still makes me angry that people who know nothing about animals can make up nonsense laws that people who actually own animals have to abide by. 

I never did find the stuff about the stolen baby goat in this thread. I went to the blog that was linked but couldn't find the videos. Is it all on Facebook? It's probably a good thing I'm not on Facebook. Poor baby. I'd be livid if someone took one of our babies from its mama. I'm not sure how effective our LGD's would be. They seem to love people, but maybe they'd change to a side I've never seen if someone was up to no good.


----------



## toth boer goats

Yes, it is on facebook.


----------



## mariarose

Is there any further word? At all?


----------



## Jessica84

Ok i can’t quote sections so mariarose- what you mentioned and then said you are a animal activist I don’t see it that way. I see it as you are simply a human who is respectful of living things and the quality of life. I see and believe the same thing. I think if someone didn’t get that, and sees no problem with ANYTHING suffering is lacking some serious morals! You said it perfect, YOU wouldn’t want to die a slow miserable death, be cut up while still living so why would we do that to another living thing? 
And yes there are things that do go deeper that I do to animals that I don’t want done to myself but as long as there is a valid reason I’m for it! If I was a guy NO I wouldn’t want my testicles banded! And no I don’t want someone putting their hand in me to pull my baby out or not give me drugs lol but there are valid reasons behind things like this.


----------



## goathiker

A true vegan life isn't sustainable anyway. Humans were meant to live in tribes of about 30. Now a vegetarian life could be maintained under those conditions with a livestock keeping, planting, and gathering tribe.
A hunter gatherer community is also sustainable.
Fishing, planting, and gathering works.
A vegan community would starve in the winter and suffer from major vitamin/mineral deficiencies.

This guy has been shut down on Facebook. He can't access his account anymore.


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## mariella

Sorry I could finish reading this it make me so mad!!!
That poor baby and it's mama what is she feeling right now!!! she must be so sad without her baby and I bet her baby misses her 

Why do they attack small farms? I get BIG dairy and BIG meat farms were they don't care about 1 or 2 lost babies but us little farms miss our babies.
I get buying bottle babies so they don't go to bad people but taking a does kid makes them worse then Daisy farms!!!
I really like this lady she makes a lot of sens as odd as she is



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=914742685346921


----------



## mariarose

Jessica84 said:


> what you mentioned and then said you are a animal activist


TeeHee! Two people separated by a common language!

I regard myself as an activist, and you don't. So there we are...


----------



## mariarose

mariella said:


> but taking a dams kid makes them whores then Daisy farms!!!


I'm not sure you are saying what you think you are saying, LOLOLOL


----------



## mariarose

goathiker said:


> A true vegan life isn't sustainable anyway. Humans were meant to live in tribes of about 30. Now a vegetarian life could be maintained under those conditions with a livestock keeping, planting, and gathering tribe.
> A hunter gatherer community is also sustainable.
> Fishing, planting, and gathering works.
> A vegan community would starve in the winter and suffer from major vitamin/mineral deficiencies.


This is true, very, very true.


----------



## Old Post Farm

that is great to hear, i feel so bad for the kid


----------



## mariarose

Jessica84 said:


> i can't quote sections


When I highlight what I want to reply to, this site gives me two options. Quote and Reply. If I click on reply it puts it in an answer box right away. If I click on quote, then it sort of gathers all my quotes together until I'm ready, then I can click "Insert Quotes" and put them in the answer box.

I must highlight what I want first for this to happen.

I hope I'm being clearer than mud.


----------



## mariella

mariarose said:


> I'm not sure you are saying what you think you are saying, LOLOLOL


What do you mean?


----------



## goathiker

This is how the Facebook game works though. He's just inciting people. Here is a theory.

Cross 4 farm lost 2 piglets to this guy that were "stolen". One piglet was lame and he has her story up to her adoption, the other drops off the story completely.
He got publicity and Cross 4 did as well. They are a petting zoo type farm that raises pigs and goats as well.
Now, the night that these guys did their little raid Cross 4 lost all six of their bottle babies from the petting zoo. These were conveniently found in someone's backyard in Glendale where it seems they just magically appeared.
This guy shows up with a cute meat baby and Cross 4 got their kids back. Again, publicity for Cross 4 and publicity for him... I wonder what kind of a deal they have worked out...


----------



## mariarose

mariella said:


> What do you mean?


Well, you said that taking kids from a dam turns someone or something into prostitutes and then turns them into farms full of daisies. I figured that you were really angry and just words were coming out. That is all I meant. Hugs.


----------



## Jessica84

mariella said:


> Sorry I could finish reading this it make me so mad!!!
> That poor baby and it's mama what is she feeling right now!!! she must be so sad without her baby and I bet her baby misses her
> 
> Why do they attack small farms? I get BIG dairy and BIG meat farms were they don't care about 1 or 2 lost babies but us little farms miss our babies.
> I get buying bottle babies so they don't go to bad people but taking a dams kid makes them whores then Daisy farms!!!
> I really like this lady she makes a lot of sens as odd as she is
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=914742685346921


But you have the same thinking as a lot of these people with the big dairy/ meat.
So let me ask you, my family runs about 250 pair of beef cattle, is that considered big? If you think so I will gladly write you a book to show how we DO care about our animals. I can tell you how I bawled my eyes out, my arms hurt so bad I couldn't move them for 3 days after pulling a calf because we can't get a vet up here and most wont do anything for a cow. I saved that calf and her mother. I can tell you how we ride from the time the sun goes up to the sun goes down every summer moving cows around to different parts of the forest for them to eat. Or ridding and freezing looking for one cow so she doesn't starve in the winter. 
But if that isn't considered big what about my friend who runs over 1,500 head of beef cattle and not only can write the same book but hires 8 people who do the same thing. One slip up from those guys and they are gone because she DOES care about her animals. 
Again there are big time outfits who don't care but most do. Let's say they really don't care one bit about how those animals live, when you think of it on a scale or money everything on 4 legs standing out there is $1,000+. To let one just get down and laugh and walk away or do nothing to help any of them is the same as getting $1,000 and setting it on fire.
To be honest I have seen more neglect from small time people who just raises animals because they have saved them and don't have a clue how to take care of them or have a full time job and just want a little more income. This is their extra this is not how they feed their families where 90% if the big outfits this is their 9-5, food on the table job


----------



## mariella

mariarose said:


> Well, you said that taking kids from a dam turns someone or something into prostitutes and then turns them into farms full of daisies. I figured that you were really angry and just words were coming out. That is all I meant. Hugs.


 I didn't even catch that sorry!!! I meant to worse


----------



## Damfino

I don't believe a true vegan lifestyle is sustainable for anyone who isn't wealthy. It requires year round access to fresh produce, access to non-local foods, access to manufactured vitamin supplements, and if the whole planet were to turn vegan I'm quite certain the crops would suffer from a lack of animal-sourced fertilizers. Our plants need animals just as much as our animals need plants. Humans need _both_ plants and animals to survive. To deny this is to deny our interconnectedness with this planet and its creatures.

I'm not an animal rights advocate because I don't believe animals have rights. Rather, I believe humans have responsibilities. We exercise the power of life and death over these creatures and we need to take that very seriously.


----------



## Damfino

mariarose said:


> I see it this way. Recognizing animal rights is the only way to ensure human rights. All human atrocities ever have happened only after humans were allowed to be called sub human...
> So I want all animals to have basic rights, including us. I want the right to a quick merciful death, to not be processed while still alive, to not live in a cage, to not be experimented on, to not have my suffering be entertainment. All these things do happen to animals, they do or have happened to humans.


I don't think that elevating animals helps us treat humans any better. Every time there is a natural disaster, animal lovers come out in droves to bash, berate, and vilify every person who was forced to leave an animal behind. I've even heard people say that they would leave their children before they left their pet, and that anyone who had to leave their dog behind while they took their children or their neighbor to safety should suffer whatever fate befell the dog. I'm sorry, but somehow these people's elevated view of of animals has completely snuffed out their sympathy for their fellow man. I've seen this over and over among animal rights advocates. When they elevate animals, their regard for human life actually goes DOWN. I'm not sure why it works that way, but it completely puts me off of the animal rights bandwagon.


----------



## Damfino

Love this article: https://fieldquestions.com/2012/11/26/the-animal-lovers-dilemma/


----------



## mariarose

I'm not seeing it as elevating anything. Acknowledging that other beings have rights is not granting equal rights to everything.


----------



## mariella

Damfino said:


> I'm not an animal rights advocate because I don't believe animals have rights. Rather, I believe humans have responsibilities. We exercise the power of life and death over these creatures and we need to take that very seriously.


Jessica84 I agree small farms are just as bad but the ones they attack are the good ones most of the time. You and your friends come in a large scale of big farms that care for their animals but there are other even bigger farms that are abusing and not caring for their livestock. I am a very small farm we raise our own Meat, Milk, And produce. And by no means am I trying to slay big farms I am just saying a lot of really big farms don't care for their animals. And if you remember I said "I get BIG dairy and BIG meat farms *were they don't care* about 1 or 2 lost babies" I didn't mean every large/big farm just the ones that don't care for their animals.

And I agree with Damfino on the above ^


----------



## goathiker

I think that the hang-up here is in the word activist.
Damfino and I are from the same generation. To us the word activist means someone who rampages through laboratories turning animals loose to freeze in the streets or stands outside Planned Parenthood trying to stone the women going in. They start riots, injure and even kill people at times.

Now an advocate is something different. They believe in the dignity of life and have their own point of views that they may talk about, maybe even publicly, they may even picket peacefully. They don't however rum rampant.


----------



## Jessica84

mariella said:


> Jessica84 I agree small farms are just as bad but the ones they attack are the good ones most of the time. You and your friends come in a large scale of big farms that care for their animals but there are other even bigger farms that are abusing and not caring for their livestock. I am a very small farm we raise our own Meat, Milk, And produce. And by no means am I trying to slay big farms I am just saying a lot of really big farms don't care for their animals. And if you remember I said "I get BIG dairy and BIG meat farms *were they don't care* about 1 or 2 lost babies" I didn't mean every large/big farm just the ones that don't care for their animals.
> 
> And I agree with Damfino on the above ^


That probably came out a bit more harsh then I meant to but I was trying to make a point too. Bottom line though is there are heartless jerks and there are ones that are not. I don't think size of operation means anything as long as the owner can keep up on it, him or her self or by hiring people. But I do think MOST ranchers of any kind do value a good quality of life. I do know one cattle rancher that I want to punch in the face every time I listen to the BS that comes out of his mouth regarding his animals, so I don't think I live in Lala land, they are out there and THOSE are the ones that should have their animals taken away. 
I think most of the time why it's the up and up breeders that get animals stole is because they have nothing to hide and have no problem in the world showing anyone anything they have. While the ones who do abuse or starve are not stupid, they know what they are doing is wrong so they hide it more.


----------



## Damfino

mariarose said:


> I'm not seeing it as elevating anything. Acknowledging that other beings have rights is not granting equal rights to everything.


I guess I don't acknowledge that animals have rights (what I referred to as elevating them). But I feel very strongly that humans have serious responsibilities in regards to their welfare, particularly when it comes to the ones we've chosen to take into our care.



goathiker said:


> Damfino and I are from the same generation.


Are we? I'm somewhere in the twilight zone known as "Xennials" that comes between Generation X and the Millenials. (How do they even come up with this stuff?)


----------



## goathiker

So you're 10 or so years younger.


----------



## Goatzrule

@Jessica84 you are so lucky to have a farm like that, I would love to be able to do that.
Ive seen a 1000+ dairy farm where their cows were treated better than I live. And that number is just the ones that were milking currently, not counting calves, heifers and dry cows. No farm that abuses their cows will survive in the world of business. A stressed cow wont produce enough milk, the more a cow lies down the more milk she will makes, but cows wont lie down in filth. Theres a lot of research done to show that the better an animal lives the more profit is made.


----------



## goathiker

At the rickreal dairy the cows have water beds...


----------



## Goatzrule

I saw one where the cows get hosed down and blown dry.


----------



## Jessica84

Goatzrule said:


> @Jessica84 you are so lucky to have a farm like that, I would love to be able to do that.
> Ive seen a 1000+ dairy farm where their cows were treated better than I live. And that number is just the ones that were milking currently, not counting calves, heifers and dry cows. No farm that abuses their cows will survive in the world of business. A stressed cow wont produce enough milk, the more a cow lies down the more milk she will makes, but cows wont lie down in filth. Theres a lot of research done to show that the better an animal lives the more profit is made.


100 likes! And you said it so much better then I did. A healthy and happy cow, goat, sheep whatever is more profitable even if we were to put ethics and our hearts aside and your right I don't think if people understand this they will last long.
I LOVE my life! It does have its moments where I'm over exhausted or heart broken, kinda crippled like I am now after getting kicked in the knee but I love my animals and I love everything about it......zoo I would rather not have been kicked in the knee but I won't quit over it lol


----------



## Goatzrule

Jessica, I was thinking for my gap year going out and doing something I wouldn't get the chance to like go and become a ranch hand. Is that a thing, I'm pretty sure a ranch wouldn't hire someone with no experience but I would love to be able to.


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## Jessica84

Yes! There is very much something like that. No usually they want experience BUT talk to some ranchers and let them know what you want to do and why. A lot, depending on how they are would probably give you a chance. I would just do some homework and present them with a plan for IF you were to get hurt. I think that’s why most farmers and ranchers shy away from people without experience. They are afraid a good deed will end up in a punishment. Every state has different rules and laws so I don’t even know where to help you. I thought I half way knew California laws till a friend of mine hired a friend of his, that had been raised operating tractors so wasn’t clueless and that guy killed himself and my friend lost EVERYTHING because he didn’t make sure that the operator was wearing his seat belt, mind you that guy was close to 40 and owned his own heavy equipment business so hopefully your in a state with less crazy laws!


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## Goatzrule

They put the video of them stealing the goat back up


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## Lovethemboers

Hi everyone. I have been working on this for a while. This is what I know. The man who is the ring leader is name Wayne Hsiung. He works with a group called DxE who believe in liberating animals. The crime happened on Saturday 10th between the hours of 11pm-12am. It was raining at that time. At the beginning of the video which I have saved, he says something about 100 miles or to that effect so I am thinking it might have happened around the Chico/Oroville area in the mountains/hills. He also said something about not wanting to go off the side of the mountain. The ranch had two white lgd's which Wayne and his buddies fed treats to get them to stop barking. The kid is a black headed Boer buckling possibly under 1 month old. His dam is a traditional doe. The property looks well cared for as well as the animals. I have had two people say they heard him say something about a website that has a shotgun on it. This might be the owners website. I have also heard that the herd is a commercial herd in the Chico area. I am not thinking it might be a humane meat place meaning a farm that raises and produces meat that is treated humanely. This is the dam in her kidding pen. Notice the hay feeder, warming barrel, and automatic waterer.


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## Lovethemboers

Here is a picture of Wayne on the night of the theft. A screen shot of him at a house after stealing the kid, and his idiot friends posing with the kid.


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## Lovethemboers

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1836799003017107


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## Goats Rock

Call the tv station. One of their investigative reporters should be interested. Stolen baby, grieving mommy goat, misguided idiot men. 

What is the owner saying about it?


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## goathiker

The owner has never come forward. I still think he has some kind of a deal going on with the Cross E ranch...


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## Jessica84

goathiker said:


> The owner has never come forward. I still think he has some kind of a deal going on with the Cross E ranch...


I'm starting to think so too. At first I was thinking ok let's say this was my dad's goat, he never would have known because he hardly knows how to use a cell phone just to make a call. But if the owners do in fact have a web page they are with it on electronics if they don't have a FB page There's a good chance they know someone who does.
I watched the video this morning and so many of his followers were upset that it was taken from its mother. I think it will be great if he did have a deal with someone just to loose some of his followers! 
Now I'm also not putting money on the fact the owner knew about this so I'll keep sharing till he/she is found or the truth comes out


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## Goatzrule

Im just wondering how they would get the video of them taking it and what owner would be okay with it, knowing they were using the farms reputation for propaganda.


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## Goatzrule

https://www.facebook.com/pg/CircleAGenetics/posts/ could this be the farm?


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## Lovethemboers

Jessica84 said:


> I'm starting to think so too. At first I was thinking ok let's say this was my dad's goat, he never would have known because he hardly knows how to use a cell phone just to make a call. But if the owners do in fact have a web page they are with it on electronics if they don't have a FB page There's a good chance they know someone who does.
> I watched the video this morning and so many of his followers were upset that it was taken from its mother. I think it will be great if he did have a deal with someone just to loose some of his followers!
> Now I'm also not putting money on the fact the owner knew about this so I'll keep sharing till he/she is found or the truth comes out


 Who is this CROSS E RANCH I keep seeing come up?


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## Goatzrule

Someone heard something about circle something ranch or farm


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## Lovethemboers

goathiker said:


> The owner has never come forward. I still think he has some kind of a deal going on with the Cross E ranch...


Who is CROSS E RANCH and how are they involved?


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## goathiker

Cross E Ranch is outside of Salt Lake city.
This guy "stole" 2 pigs from them a couple years ago. One stays on the website until it's adoption and the other disappears.
The same weekend this happened 6 bottle babies were "stolen" from Cross E. These kids magically appeared dumped in someone's fenced front yard.
It just seemed that this lawyer and the ranch were getting a lot of publicity for both of them.


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## Goatzrule

@Lovethemboers https://chico.craigslist.org/grd/d/boer-goat-bucklings-100-full/6491452731.html Is this place close to where youre thinking?


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## Damfino

Ugh... Finally got to view the video. This guy is a total whackjob and he doesn't appear to know the first thing about goats. Poor baby. Poor mama. I have a feeling the name of the farm is made up or a code name of some sort. I hope these people go to jail for animal theft and animal abuse. Going to jail for animal abuse would be poetic justice. I hope he loses a lot of followers because of this cruel, selfish stunt.


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## Lovethemboers

Goatzrule said:


> @Lovethemboers https://chico.craigslist.org/grd/d/boer-goat-bucklings-100-full/6491452731.html Is this place close to where youre thinking?


???? Please clarify. I have been working non stop for almost a week with very little sleep.


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## Jessica84

Goatzrule said:


> Im just wondering how they would get the video of them taking it and what owner would be okay with it, knowing they were using the farms reputation for propaganda.


See that's what I'm having a hard time believing too. I mean if I was asked to stage this, even offered money to do so they couldn't be hung up on/ kick off, me walk away spewing bad words at them fast enough. But again not everyone sees the big pictures.
Who came to mind when thinking about this was a breeder who runs a horse rescue. They use the title of horse rescue to sell the Goats saying that all money goes to funding the horse rescue. That person is a strung out money hungry jerk and I could totally see him doing something like that especially if there was a promise or promoting his horse rescue. I wish what this thief did was drop a go fund me link just to see how much money he actually made off that kid, I think a lot of people would be shocked and if he gave that breeder part of it, depending on their morals might have been worth it


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## Goatzrule

That is a craigslist ad for a small 4H family with some black headed boers in Oroville. Wasnt sure if that was in the same area of where you were thinking the farm could be


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## Goatzrule

That could be true but the baby is still too young to be taken from the dam


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## Lovethemboers

Jessica84 said:


> See that's what I'm having a hard time believing too. I mean if I was asked to stage this, even offered money to do so they couldn't be hung up on/ kick off, me walk away spewing bad words at them fast enough. But again not everyone sees the big pictures.
> Who came to mind when thinking about this was a breeder who runs a horse rescue. They use the title of horse rescue to sell the Goats saying that all money goes to funding the horse rescue. That person is a strung out money hungry jerk and I could totally see him doing something like that especially if there was a promise or promoting his horse rescue. I wish what this thief did was drop a go fund me link just to see how much money he actually made off that kid, I think a lot of people would be shocked and if he gave that breeder part of it, depending on their morals might have been worth it


Obviously anything is possible. They state that the kid was going to a sanctuary farm where he would be cared for. Supposedly they took him to a vet also to get the "pneumonia" cared for. I haven't seen any more posts regarding this kid so have no idea if it is even alive anymore.


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## goathiker

I'm not sure he really was. That baby was awfully interested in something walking around outside shed in that other video.


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## Goatzrule

The ears of the small group of does show no sign of a scrapie tag. So I assume they are all tattooed. And they use small long yellow tags for individual ids


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## Goatzrule

Have you thought of looking in the greenwood area


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## Lstein

Has there been any more info on this at all?


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## Goatzrule

Someone found the vet they took him too, another vegan activist


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## toth boer goats

Oh dear.


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## Goatzrule

Pretty sure he didnt make it or else there would have been other posts


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## Jessica84

Oh boy I forgot about this. I’ve been watching on FB and being a devil. He made it. This really nice news lady (NOT) did a interview with the thieving jerk on how he is saving animals from a horrible death blah blah blah bull crud topped with more bull crud and in the interview showed the little guy out in a field. He did actually look pretty good. The lady only showed the part of the video of him holding the kid, not how nice and roomie the barn was and how the goats were in good shape. No interview with any goat rancher but did interview a scientist that talked about how they use animals for medicine research blah blah. Totally made sense to me since he “saved” the kid from becoming dinner not a lab rat! I wrote a reply to the news lady’s interview, not the best reply, I was very politely rude and the crazy lady has been sending me invites to like her page! She’s just as nuts as he is! But no trying to find the owner, nothing of how he is taking money from family farms. It was very one sided  I totally get why our president doesn’t talk to the media!


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## Goatzrule

I guess maybe someone did sell the kid to them. Found an activist group nearby, going to start taking better records of who comes onto the farm and get some video cameras up. One of my best friends works for the leader of it and said shes been arrested 16 times. I always knew they were in the area but never this close


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## Jessica84

The news lady really didn’t show much of the little goat or the video of him taking it but if I had a kid missing I would be looking for the video to see if it was mine so I’m not sure what to think on it being a scam or a real theft. I’m sure only he knows for sure :/ 
Do whatever you need to do to keep your animals and you safe! It makes it so much of a pain but I guess this is every ranchers reality now


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## goathiker

Civil disobedience is perfectly legal as long as it's done openly and nonviolently. Making the video ensures that no crime has been committed as long as the owner doesn't come forward.

Coming forward for the rancher is going to mean picket lines in his driveway, animal control going through everything, and a court case against a well known and wealthy activist.


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## Goatzrule

Unfortunately thats true. Such a sad reality. I heard Tennessee is passing a bill to make it legal to hit protesters but not sure if its true, and thats TN I just found it interesting. 

But theres also the side where he would be publicly exposed for his crimes and might get some of his followers against him because he doesnt have a good case and theres no way he would win


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## Jessica84

He does win though! I forget what the lady said on how many times he has been to court and the other people end up dropping it. I’m sure the fact that he has so many followers/ funds at his expense is why. I’m gonna be the sketch looking seller that meets people at the drive way. I don’t care. Most of my buyers come off of CL anyways so another reason not to bring to the house. It’ll take maybe a extra half hour to hook up the trailer and load them. If someone doesn’t like it then oh well. If I get a feel for them and they seem like who they say they are and not weirdos then ok but I’m turning jaded! It’s just not worth it any more


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## Goatzrule

I like being able to look people up on facebook. Ive never had anyone that was super sketchy, one tried to take my barn cat but that was the weirdest that came


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## Jessica84

Lol I’ve been doing that too!! I’ve had a good amount of people who just give off that vibe but most have been really good people!


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## Goatzrule

I wouldnt really blame them for wanting him hes so stinkin adorable. I think this is a good lesson to all farmers to be more aware of their surroundings, we are going into a new era. Maybe this is all just a fad but if we all helped each other be more aware and keep each others animals and children safe. Unfortunately ARA having been coming to fairs and started to harass the kids there, more geared towards the pig scramble, but they still travel around. The pig scramble is for the younger children and they are more vulnerable. I hopefully will be talking to members this year about how to stay safe in a situation like that but im sure all fairs could use more people to help keep the children safe. Whether youre just a fair goer or volunteer with the 4H/fair organization. It really stinks that this is becoming the world we live in


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## Jessica84

That’s a really good idea with the fair kids and I didn’t even think of that! During the fair that is pretty much the time that I make sure my kids talks to anyone (strangers) about their animals and answer questions. I’m always standing right there but I see so many kids running around or doing something with their animals with no parents around. Which granted the leader takes on about 6 kids so their parents can still go to work not that they are bad parents but she can’t make sure she is there for every single kid talking to someone


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## Goatzrule

It looks like we might be getting a new volunteer for our club so hopefully we will have another set of eyes watching the kids


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## Paravani

The thief claims to be a "tech lawyer". He has posted no more photos or videos of the "rescued" baby, and I fear she may be dead. Here's the Facebook page with the video. "Direct Action Everywhere -- DxE" advocates stealing animals and ending all uses of domestic animals -- whether for meat, fur, dairy, eggs, or lab experimentation.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1849709815059359


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## Paravani

goathiker said:


> This guy has been shut down on Facebook. He can't access his account anymore.


Wayne Hsiung, the thief, had his account restored to him. I've reported every post with the goat theft as

"I think it shouldn't be on Facebook"
"Threatening, violent, or suicidal"
"Theft or vandalism"
"Submit to Facebook for review"

I tried to report the original video on the DxE page, but there isn't a straightforward way to do that. However, I'll be sharing the link with the goat groups on Facebook while the video is still up. Also, there is probably a version of it on YouTube.

Sadly, no more posts about the baby Boer. I think she might be gone.
:'-(


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## toth boer goats




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## Goatzrule

They could be hiding her


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## Lovethemboers

This is a link to Wayne Hsiung and his group DxE who is responsible for the "rescue" theft of the Boer buckling now known as Rain. To date there is no evidence that Rain survived or where he is located.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1836799003017107


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## Lovethemboers

MilkandMeatgoats said:


> I'd like to see someone try to steel a goat here! We have four Great Pyrenees here and raise a litter every year, so for several months we'll have as many as 15! Go ahead a make one of those kids scream (or the adults for that matter) if you want to on this little family farm...you're gonna find out what family is about! They know who's invited and who's not


There were at least 2 LGD's on the property with these goats. They carry dog treats to befriend the guard dogs before picking up a kid. Dog's barked when they went into the pens and barked only after they walked out with the kid.


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## Lovethemboers

Tenacross said:


> A friend of mine posted this on FB this morning and I watched this kook. I was thinking about it this afternoon while I was driving home from work and it came to me that as dishonest as this guy is about nearly everything, what's to say he even stole this kid? I think there's a good chance he borrowed a bottle baby from someone and made the video, lying about everything. In the video, the guy is going on and on about what a brave act it was like he was in on the raid to kill Osama Bin Laden or something. The kid is sleeping in his lap like a bottle baby does in all your friend's FB pictures of their favorite bottle baby that currently lives in the house. If it was a dam raised kid, I doubt it would be lying quitely like that. I doubt this guy has ever even seen a goat farm before.


This kid was NOT a BOTTLE BABY! It was with its dam. This guy Wayne has stolen many animals...goats, turkeys, chickens, pigs, and calves. Those are the ones I know of. This was not a prank or put on! Even the FBI was called in to investigate a couple of piglets that were taken from a big farm in Utah. This method of "rescue" is called Open Rescue. It is done in the open for everyone to see. They believe they have the right to take any animal from anyone if THEY believe the animal is going to be killed sometime in its life at that farm. Many breeders have watched the video and all agree that the kid was in a good situation. Good clean pens. Both kid and mom were healthy. All goats seen in the video is in good condition. The kidding pen that the kid was taken from was clean with a feeder and waterer for the mother and a heating barrel for the kid. The only reason this kid was taken was because the farm he was located at also offered meat animals for sale.


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## Lovethemboers

Goats Rock said:


> Someone needs to contact the local tv stations, etc. explain why goat kids need momma, etc. (unless bottle kids, you know what I mean).
> 
> Those thieves are domestic terrorists. The same as PETA and HSUSA. They are preying on Americans.
> 
> I just looked at their website. Total bunch of whack jobs. Whew!


Right after this happened a news report was done in favor of the thief! Who by the way is a lawyer. There is another reporter who is looking into the story. She has spoken to Wayne Hsuing and a Boer goat breeder to get both sides of the story. The more people who speak out and protest what happened to this family farm the better.


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## Lovethemboers

This is the reporter who is doing the new report. The channel she works at is KPIX 5 in the bay area. 
Please contact her and the station if you are still upset about this story.
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/personality/susie-steimle/


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## Goatzrule

Where did you hear about this report?


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## Lovethemboers

Goatzrule said:


> Where did you hear about this report?


I know the person who was interviewed. I am a little concerned that the report hasn't come out yet, but am told they are working on it.


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## Goatzrule

what questions were asked


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## Lovethemboers

Goatzrule said:


> what questions were asked


I wasn't there for the interview so can't say what questions were asked. All I know is that the reporter interviewed Wayne regarding the "rescue" and wanted to speak to a goat breeder to get our side of the story. How we care for our animals and things like that.


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## Goatzrule

How long ago?


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## toth boer goats

An update.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/05/03/bay-area-dxe-animal-activists-charged/


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## Goats Rock

All I can say is, if you don't own it or pay taxes on it, leave it alone. If you truly feel an animal is being harmed or neglected, call the appropriate legal authorities. I hope those terrorists go to prison!


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## Goatzrule

Well I like that they tried to get both sides of the story. Hopefully he does go to prison, Dont need those kind of people endangering our animals


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## Ashlynn

This is absolutely ridiculous


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## Ashlynn

The sad thing is the farmer will probably think something ate it not stole it


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## Nigerian dwarf goat

It is quite obvious that these people know nothing about goats. So they are taking away bottle babies that if are taken away and not given the proper nutrition ( they will probably not give them proper nutrition ) they will die at a VERY young age. And if they would just leave the goats alone, then the goat would live MUCH longer. Also, how are these people supposed to know that these animals are going to be used for meat purposes? These people are NOT smart☹☹☹


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## Damfino

In this case they took away a dam-raised kid, and it can be hard even for experienced goat people to get a dam-raised baby to take a bottle. Not to mention--what kind of milk were they feeding this poor kid? Vegan extremists like these people don't believe in milking animals or even feeding animal products to their pets. Every kind of milk replacer on the planet contains milk in some form. So were they feeding the kid non-dairy soy or coconut "milk" made for humans? If so, the poor baby was doomed the second they took him from his mama.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat

If these people really think these animals are being abused, then why don't they call the Animal control and let them deal with it.

Livestock is supposed to be used for meat, milk, etc. I have no problem with vegan diets, but just because some people aren't vegans, like them, doesn't mean that they can take it out on farmers that raise animals for their PURPOSES and the poor, helpless animals, that have no control over this stuff. these animals aren't being abused but once these thieves get a hold of them, they are being abused.


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## yankeedoodle

All I can say is...










The english language dosen't have the right word to describe how ridicules this is. I cant believe it!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat

/\ I agree! It is completely over the top!


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## yankeedoodle

This is what those morons will get if they show up on MY farm!!










I LOVE MY ANIMALS LIKE, _*A LOT !!!!! *_
My best friend travels a lot, so when she's not around, they are pretty much all I got! I spend as much time as I can with them.( any other time is spent on here, snicker snicker.) I just would lose it if some one stole one of my babies. They keep my mind off of day to day problems and ,I mean, when was the last time your goats weren't happy to see you?
My friend has been in N.C. for 2 years so, yeh, therapy goats as someone else referred to them in a different thread.

Any ways,

_*DON'T MESS WITH MY ANIMALS!!!*_​


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## New-goat-mom

Lol that's awesome @yankeedoodle !


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## Jessica84

Lol you should print that and put at the entrance of your place


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## Steampunked

Really minor point, but I was glad to see someone else mention Temple Grandin. Her work is excellent, and she has been one of the greatest modern influencers in seeing animals treated with respect. I have enjoyed reading many of her articles and studies into humane farming practices. She really works hard.


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## Damfino

I love what Temple Grandin has done. I don't believe in animal rights, but I am a staunch supporter of animal welfare. Temple Grandin has done more for animal welfare than probably all the animals rights activists combined. I truly respect that.


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## goatygirl8

It's been many months since this has happened. I honestly believe that if this was someone's goat that they would be looking for it. They have a lot of videos everywhere and everyone's talking about it. There is a lot of media coverage about this. I wouldn't be surprised if this was completely staged. Why would someone just shrug off one of their goats missing? There was no property damage or anything that would leave someone to believe that the kid was taken by an animal. At this point I really believe that they paid a farmer to let them record this and bought the kid to "raise". I don't know what else could explain it.


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## Goatzrule

So end or almost end to the story. The baby was stolen from a farm in North Carolina where the theives now face charges. I'm trying to copy the link. This is the second goat stolen from the farm


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## Goatzrule

http://www.pisgahgoats.com/sospiro-attacked-blog/the-facts-about-the-attack-on-our-farm#comments


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## mariarose

Thank you, @Goatzrule


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## ksalvagno

I hope they are fully prosecuted.


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## toth boer goats

I hope they throw away the key.
With people like that, who don't do research and actually look at the way animals are actually treated, (humanely) no matter if they are meant for food or pets ect. No matter, they have no rights to just steal an animal that they know nothing about making things much worse for that animal. That goat was ripped from it's mama. 

If someone believes an animal is truly being mistreated ect. They need to call the authorities and have them investigate the issue.


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## Jessica84

But here is the kicker that you guys need to know as well as make others aware. Most of these jokers go after farmers in California because we passed a law that, in short and sweet words says that it a ANIMAL is in danger of being harmed or killed anyone has the right to step in ad save it by any means. What most people had in mind when it was voted on was dogs in hot cars, dogs being tied up without water. Someone mistreating a cat, basically saving pets from bad situations. But that’s not what it said in the bill it was ANIMALS. So legally if they can prove that it was at risk of death, butchering is death, they were not breaking the law. Everyone has always thought I was nuts over the years because I never support or vote on anything that will save animals. Seems heartless yes but look at this situation. I also know see all these gals that “save” horses, they collect thousands of dollars to buy a $800 horse, turn around and sell it for $3000 and sport a new truck and has name brand everything without having a job. NO ANIMAL deserves to suffer but good intentions don’t need to be used to twist things around either


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## catharina

Steampunked said:


> Really minor point, but I was glad to see someone else mention Temple Grandin. Her work is excellent, and she has been one of the greatest modern influencers in seeing animals treated with respect. I have enjoyed reading many of her articles and studies into humane farming practices. She really works hard.





Damfino said:


> I love what Temple Grandin has done. I don't believe in animal rights, but I am a staunch supporter of animal welfare. Temple Grandin has done more for animal welfare than probably all the animals rights activists combined. I truly respect that.


I saw a bio-pic on TV about her. She had more challenges than just her autism. Some places forbid women to even enter. She was tough!


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