# ABGA Shows - disbudded goats in 2017?



## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I know some of you are more connected to the ABGA show world than I am and was hoping you could help out. 

I heard 2nd or 3rd hand, starting in 2017, only horned goats would be allowed to be shown??? No disbudded/dehorned goats would be allowed in the show ring.

Is this true for ABGA shows? Maybe it was a misunderstanding and it was for a specific show? Or is there somewhere I can read ABGA proposed rule changes?

I have googled it and can't find anything. I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere in the ABGA "magazine."

My goats are typically disbudded, but I may need to change how I do things....

Thanks!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Horns are always preferred but you could call ABGA & ask if there is a rule proposal.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

nancy d said:


> Horns are always preferred but you could call ABGA & ask if there is a rule proposal.


That was my understanding as well, but was very surprised to hear it might turn to horns only.

If I can't find an answer over the weekend, I will quite likely contact the ABGA and see what they say.

Thanks for your feedback!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Not sure either, calling the association would be wise.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> Not sure either, calling the association would be wise.


Thanks. Looks like that will be on my list for Monday!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree call and find out for sure. They change things all the time and it's getting annoying. I just got my papers back from them and I sent a app in on a doe I purchased. I got charged the $24 for her papers AND a $8 transfer fee even though it was a application!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That sure would be unfair to owners of disbudded goats who are already working towards a championship. It seems like the members should rattle the cage a bit if something is passed that excludes a whole section of members.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Breeders know that ABGA prefers horns. It is no problem & less work.
Horn set is important as well, if they row in a gentle curve back or more straight.
For instance, the S African handbook states that horns that grow more straight up indicate wildness.
These folks have been raising Boers a whole lot longer than we have here in the states.
They have reasons for DQs that are common sense for the welfare of the breed. ABGA has adopted most of them.

Now, having said that. there are county & state fairs that do not allow horned Boers in 4h or FFA.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Nancy I agree with you and that's why I don't dehorn. I actually had to go to a 4-H board meeting before I was on the board to keep them.from changing the rules to horn less Boer goats. I used the ABGA rules for my facts. I just feel like Boer goats look weird dehorned I love their horns.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol depends who you talk to on less work. Getting a head out of the fence takes way more time then disbudding, not to mention my high blood pressure when one is nasty with their horns. I hate horns especially on the bucks. Granted I do agree a buck looks funny without their horns but I'm over my bucks horns. I can't put them in my stand thing because their horns go to far back and are so wide. When the poor guys lay out in the sun they are laying on their horns. One of the reasons why I want to AI is because I want to get a buck that is not only raised to be friendly but to disbud that sucker!! It's funny you say that about the horns going up because the one and only thing I liked about the few kikos I tried was their horns grew up and out. I never once had one of them with their heads in the fence.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I personally like my hornless herd, and do not think my view on that will change. It has not been feasible in the past, but I was looking forward to when I would be able to show my goats.

If this really is a rule change, how I handle the kids that are born here will likely change. It would possibly mean picking my keepers at a younger age than I would prefer, or take the chance that I can still sell the dehorned kids.

Hopefully I can get some answers next week.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I still have a majority of buyers that like horned goats so that's what I have to do. It's hard doing it that way because you just don't know what you would want to keep and what won't amount to much. I kept 8 doelings this year. 2 were disbudded :/ but for me it's not the end of the world if they have horns I just would rather not have them


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

For my boers, I like the horns, will not dehorn any of them for buyers. 

Do know, horns act like a radiator, keeps the goats cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter.

Horns are also used to defend themselves if a predator approaches.

Horns make it easier to grab a Doe and catch them to do something quick with them or to catch them if they are ill, then putting a rope on them is easier.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I too have had heads stuck in fence. We now have chicken wire on outside of it to keep little heads in.
Once I had a disbudded Nub yrling who would get her head stuck in the hay rack. She wasn't very bright, I think I fried her brains.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Some insurance companies for homeowners will not cover you if you have horned goats because of the liability.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm not sold on the protection part of horns, I've seen just as many horned goats killed by predators as hornless. I've also seen way too many horned goats dead from getting their horned heads stuck in fences, trees, wire, collars and halters of other animals, either by suffocation or by a break. When I had Boers, I never noticed any difference in heat regulation between the horned and hornless ones. Or a difference between the horned Boers and the dairy when it came to the heat or cold.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Mine totally shredded the chicken wire :/ that ended up being just a total mess, I would rather having pinched fingers getting heads out then deal with that again lol my goats are terrible animals, I swear they stay up at night plotting how to make my live harder lol hot fence is a dream to keep heads out I just keep it off when they are kidding because I don't want a kid rolling down a hill into it 
Now I totally agree on horns being handy. I have a beef blocking stand that I use for feet trimming. Those animals can wiggle their little heads around and not put their head in the hole to catch them!! Horns I can grab one and force their head in, no horns I have to work at it. 
I honestly don't see a difference with heat between the two. When it's hot they are all lazy and when they are hungry they both go out and eat, I don't see how no horns suffer any. I know there is science behind it, not at all arguing that I just don't see a difference :/
Protection, I actually was pro horns and that was my biggest reason for it. But my queen was disbudded and she was MEAN!! She hated dogs and was always the one to stand guard and even take out my dogs when they went in. 
Really for me though I just weighted pros and cons for what I personally like and between my mean queen and a stupid doe that had to put her head threw the fence for no reason and die to leave me twins that would not take a bottle and to young to eat hay I changed to the 'dark side' and didn't want horns. I won't not buy a goat because she has horns I simply just don't like them and if I wasn't such a chicken I would band all the horned ones I have lol


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I avoid discussing horns vs. no horns, as people get pretty passionate about their personal choice for their goats. I would be surprised if the ABGA made a new rule excluding disbudded goats from shows. I can't think of any reason why the organization would want to upset the few people who show disbudded goats.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I will never complain about my goats again. Yes when they are younger I have had does get their heads caught but they have all grown out of it as they grow. But mine never have the issues some have said. My bucks never break down gates or fences. My does and bucks never jump fences to get to the other. (Knocks on wood) the only thing they do that I hate is scream for 2 weeks when they are weaned off grain after they wean their kids. While getting grain they scream all the time when they see me. No grain and they are quiet pasture pets.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

RPC said:


> I will never complain about my goats again. Yes when they are younger I have had does get their heads caught but they have all grown out of it as they grow. But mine never have the issues some have said. My bucks never break down gates or fences. My does and bucks never jump fences to get to the other. (Knocks on wood) the only thing they do that I hate is scream for 2 weeks when they are weaned off grain after they wean their kids. While getting grain they scream all the time when they see me. No grain and they are quiet pasture pets.


Nope you have very good goats then! I could write a book about the daily things mine do that test my sanity limit seems I am always buying or coming up with new ways to electrocute mine  I now even have hot wire on top of one of my feeders after I had to save one dumbo that jumped in and when she jumped out got her front and back legs on the right side stuck. I am still very baffled on how she didn't break her legs!!


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Jessica84 said:


> Nope you have very good goats then! I could write a book about the daily things mine do that test my sanity limit seems I am always buying or coming up with new ways to electrocute mine  I now even have hot wire on top of one of my feeders after I had to save one dumbo that jumped in and when she jumped out got her front and back legs on the right side stuck. I am still very baffled on how she didn't break her legs!!


Man that is crazy I think mine know I will sell them if they act like that lol.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Tenacross said:


> I avoid discussing horns vs. no horns, as people get pretty passionate about their personal choice for their goats. I would be surprised if the ABGA made a new rule excluding disbudded goats from shows. I can't think of any reason why the organization would want to upset the few people who show disbudded goats.


Aside from dairy goats who do not have horns in order to show, disbudding certainly is a personal preference.
It all comes down to your own. ABGA will gladly take your money, horned or not. I don't think they will change it either, Tim.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

lol Nancy you are so right!!! I didn't even think of it that way, I don't see them refusing someone money either.
RPC it's never the same animal twice, they know I have a three strike thing so I think they all take turns at it after they saw my major fence jumpers head down the road. But that's how things are here, everything will be fine then BAM!!! All the animals gang up on me lol


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Tenacross said:


> I avoid discussing horns vs. no horns, as people get pretty passionate about their personal choice for their goats. I would be surprised if the ABGA made a new rule excluding disbudded goats from shows. I can't think of any reason why the organization would want to upset the few people who show disbudded goats.





nancy d said:


> Aside from dairy goats who do not have horns in order to show, disbudding certainly is a personal preference.
> It all comes down to your own. ABGA will gladly take your money, horned or not. I don't think they will change it either, Tim.


I didn't mean to start a discussion :? I was just curious if my "through the grapevine information" was true or common knowledge for those more into the show scene than I. I try to stay current on things, so hearing that info really surprised me.

I am guessing if you guys haven't heard anything about it, that there was a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.

Hopefully I'll get some clarity from the ABGA this week...I sent them an e-mail this afternoon.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

PippasCubby said:


> I didn't mean to start a discussion :? I was just curious if my "through the grapevine information" was true or common knowledge for those more into the show scene than I. I try to stay current on things, so hearing that info really surprised me.
> 
> I am guessing if you guys haven't heard anything about it, that there was a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.
> 
> Hopefully I'll get some clarity from the ABGA this week...I sent them an e-mail this afternoon.


It isn't your fault.  No worries.

I did notice some did get cranky LOL, but it is preference and no one should get mad about horns or not and who prefers them along with their reasoning. But I will still stand my ground on horns and that is what I found with them. I do have a hotline, so that keeps them away from the fence.

No, I haven't heard anything on the show thing. I do know horns are preferred with ABGA in the goat standards. But yep, they will take your money to show.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

FYI I was not cranky  I totally respect others choice to want horned goats


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Actually this has been the most civil discussion on the subject I have ever seen.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It wasn't you Jessica..


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I know we can get pretty opinionated on horns! And, I realize I am in the minority for the Boer world. I appreciate your guys' inputs.

So far all I have heard back is "I have not heard of this change but will find out and let you know."


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Finally got an answer last week.

"The breed standards are charging Jan 1st but nothing is changing regarding the horns on goats. Goats without horns are allowed to show in ABGA shows.

Aaron"

Thanks all for humoring me while I sorted it out!


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

So, what are they changing starting January first?


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

Following to find out what they are changing.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I don't know :-/

I asked where we could find the changes and the reply was....

"It will be on ABGA website under the education tab."

I don't see anything mentioning it yet, so I am hoping that once January hits, they highlight the changes somehow in a brief overview or something.


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## -Indy- (Dec 1, 2012)

ABGA posted their breed standard changes yesterday. One of those changes is disbudded or polled goats are disqualified at shows. That specific portion does not go into effect until January 2018. Here is a link to the updated standards. http://abga.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Breed-Standards-FINAL.pdf


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Wow!! They really have it together! If you call one day you'll get one answer, call next week and get a different person with a whole other answer. I wonder if this info has been floating around though because when I went to a coalition sale where most of the buyers are show people, they had a little polled doeling. She was dirt cheap so I got her but I was the only one that even bid on her.


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

I was just about to post the link as well..it is very frustrating that they do not seem to all be on the same page and give false information at times. I personally have mostly horned animals and it doesn't affect me too much. My issue with this is that a) Say you have a mature show doe that was dehorned years ago, they're now not show worthy? Or is it only animals born after the rule takes effect? and b) There are still county fairs that require no horns meaning the child must choose between the county show or being able to show the goat elsewhere.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Ughh.....thanks for posting that! I had just checked a couple days ago and there wasn't anything.

I was afraid that the ABGA may not have it together and give me some misinformation! 

I also have some of the same questions/issues/concerns goatnutty has about previously disbudded does/bucks. I may also ask the guy I talked to at ABGA and voice my displeasure with the inaccurate/misleading information

I will read through it more thoroughly this afternoon or weekend. Today is already filled with errands, kiddo appt. and lunch with my husband


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I quote the response from ABGA... "nothing is changing regarding the horns on goats"

At this point I am more frustrated with the misinformation than the change itself.

Okay...on with my day...


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

That's always my biggest frustration as well :/ I had called once to see how when I register the goats it has my, and my kids name on the papers. That way when they show or I croak it's not a big deal. I was told to simply fill it out as usual and then just add a name to it. I did that and still came back with just my name on it. Called again and told them what was said to me and what I wanted. Was told I couldn't do that, I have papers on some does that I bough that have the whole family listed!! I dropped it because the kids were still young but need to get down to it and ask to speak to a manager or someone I guess.
Goatnutty I hope they do it off of age. I don't show but that doesn't mean that my kids won't want to in the future and I'll be so upset if I goofed by disbudding them. I probably won't disbud any more though :/ I don't show and don't plan on it, I don't even know if my would have a chance but I hate the idea that I would take the chance away if someone did want to show them


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

I feel the same way..unless someone requests in time that they are disbudded I won't be doing it. We have shown for years locally in the 4H program, but now we are wondering if we want to show ABGA or not so it's a tough call.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Jessica84 and Goatnutty, I do not believe age will have anything to do with it. There were several people on the ABGA Facebook site that said their animals , some whom are ennobled, will not be eligible to show in 2018. They are trying to get closer to the South African requirements. I believe that there may be more strict changes each year. 
As far as county Fair regulations, I think this gives people back up to go to their fair boards and show them that they need to allow horns. Show them that national standards require it. Tipped horns should be allowed at fairs in my opinion.


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

That's what I was afraid of. I understand the reasoning, but do feel they need to consider that issue. I do agree with you, our fair now allows horns on all boers and it was a positive change for us. I just hope that others will follow in that.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I get it too it's just hard on selling kids. I guess if someone wants a kid disbudded then they are going to have to put a deposit on them at a week old. I hate doing that as I feel I can't price them fairly at that time but they will either have to do that or go to someone else :/


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

I still disbud my wethers, but not does or bucks.


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

Jessica84 said:


> I get it too it's just hard on selling kids. I guess if someone wants a kid disbudded then they are going to have to put a deposit on them at a week old. I hate doing that as I feel I can't price them fairly at that time but they will either have to do that or go to someone else :/


That's kind of what I was thinking too. onder:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I just REALLY thought about this and this is going to be such a pain!! I have kids due in 74 days all the way to only in 74 days bred. What I normally do is just wait till everything is born before I go down my waiting list that way there is no hard feelings on who was first and blah blah blah. I can't do that if I put them up for sale at a week old! Now granted half are due within the first week but still :/ I think I'll have to toss the waiting list idea out the door. I'm also going to have to go threw and tell everyone on the list they need to decide fast once the kids are born. I guess they could take them to a vet and dehorn them. There's one gal that tries to sell everything as a breeding buck and if you want a show wether you have to pay for the dehorning yourself and it doesn't seem to keep people from buying from her. Maybe that can be true with does?


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## -Indy- (Dec 1, 2012)

Originally the counties around us required does to be dehorned in order to show. We were able to work with the counties to change the rules so that does with registration papers were allowed to have horns. We continue to dehorn all of our 4H wethers, but just an idea though for anyone who may have a county with rules involving no horns.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I think it's a shame they are doing this. There are really very few people who show ABGA that disbud, but I have friends who raise very nice boers that they disbud. I know better than to ask them why. I don't think there is any reason good enough to not allow these goats in the ABGA show ring. When you add in that a lot of the "wether people" do disbud, it makes even less sense. The only good thing I can say is, by waiting until 2018 to make this a rule, they can still change their mind. They've done that before.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I am still trying to wrap my head around it all. I would say more but I'd basically be restating what a lot of you have already said.

Lots of thinking for me to do about it all. And my first does are due in 12 days! :hair:


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

Jessica84 said:


> That's always my biggest frustration as well :/ I had called once to see how when I register the goats it has my, and my kids name on the papers. That way when they show or I croak it's not a big deal. I was told to simply fill it out as usual and then just add a name to it. I did that and still came back with just my name on it. Called again and told them what was said to me and what I wanted. Was told I couldn't do that, I have papers on some does that I bough that have the whole family listed!! I dropped it because the kids were still young but need to get down to it and ask to speak to a manager or someone I guess.
> Goatnutty I hope they do it off of age. I don't show but that doesn't mean that my kids won't want to in the future and I'll be so upset if I goofed by disbudding them. I probably won't disbud any more though :/ I don't show and don't plan on it, I don't even know if my would have a chance but I hate the idea that I would take the chance away if someone did want to show them


Just curious if you called and got that figured out? I've sent in papers and have gotten them back with both my name and moms name on them. I don't know how long ago you tired to do yours but mine was within the last 2 months. I would be pretty mad if they did that to us! It's a big deal to be able to have us both own them and for us to both be able to show them.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I have not yet. It was last year I believe when I tried and I'm going to call them again once I get new credit cards (wallet was stolen) in case they make me make the kids become members


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

As far as ABGA showing, it doesn't matter who's name is on the registration papers.
That being said, our county fair requires either the showman's name on the registration, or a farm name. We opted to register everything in the farm name so that either of my children could show any doe on the property. 
On my papers it says:
Loggy Acres Livestock 
Michael and Julie Sarver 
Address


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

Maybe that's how my mom and I got away with it neither of us are members yet! (Sorry about your wallet being stolen.) 
But for my county fair I have to be on papers for me to show otherwise it wouldn't matter if my mom or I were in them.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well no because mine says anderson ranch and then just my name and address under it but yet when I tried to add a name to a app they wouldn't put it on there. Is your husband a member as well? 
For the fair the kids have to have them in their name as well, although they don't have any classes for % or anything, they just go off of age so for his two does we just put a scrapies tag in them and and put N/A on the part they wanted their registration number. 
Heck liberty it might be cheaper to not be a member if I have to pay for myself and 2 youth memberships!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Ours are done just like Julie posted. My name and my 3 kids names are listed. 

I think my biggest complaint about the new changes has to be... teat structure! Why in the world are they not being more strict and trying to clean them up?


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

HoosierShadow said:


> Ours are done just like Julie posted. My name and my 3 kids names are listed.
> 
> I think my biggest complaint about the new changes has to be... teat structure! Why in the world are they not being more strict and trying to clean them up?


I noticed that too!!! I was at a goat clinic and a breeder told me he just cut his off when they're off in structure.  I was shocked he admitted to it and explained the whole process to us. (a group of 5 or more breeders) 
I know a lot of other people were a bit puzzled by the changes on them too. I think they definitely should be more strict about them!


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I have not looked at the teat structure part of the rule. I honestly thought they were more strict because I have seen 3 does for sale. They all had been shown and they all said now they were not showable due to new teat rules.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Yes, I agree. The teat structure chart is more lenient in my opinion. Not sure what the thought process was behind that.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I haven't seen the new changes yet.
Liberty that is insane!!! I wonder if those doelings ended up having issues after they were cut off. I had a doeling last year that was born with 2 teats, I'm not sure what happened but when I was playing with her about a month after she was born one was missing and she just had a little scab there. It seemed to heal up nicely but I wasn't even going to chance anyone breeding her so sold the poor sweet girl for butcher


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

http://abga.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Breed-Standards-FINAL.pdf


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

These should be all the changes along with the teat structure changes.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Whoa!!! This surprises me! Now don't get me wrong I have had some jacked up teats before that I had no clue how the kids ate (once I learned what is good and bad) and they did great on raising their kids but I agree we should be focusing on cleaning them up more. I think if the acceptable ones that really shouldn't be acceptable is bred then there is more of a chance for the DQ teats. Even with 1 and 2 teats, well spaced on the 2 they have thrown some odd balls. According to this it would be fine and for me it's not a big deal since I personally don't show but it's gotta be disheartening for people who do raise show goats :/


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I don't even like P4 let alone the rest. I won't lie I doe have a few does with teats I am not happy with but I am working on it. I will always prefer 1x1 or 2x2 but I try not to have anything else.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh I don't get me wrong I have some that I'm not find of either but when they don't just feed their kids but are the best of the crop on tends to keep those lol I also have a doe that is 100% with less then perfect teats that I got for $150 because of it. Heck yeah I'll be changing that, I could get more then that for her at the sale yard. But looking at this she is A-OK now


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I agree I think all of mine are showable as far as teats go but I think that's something we really should be working on as far as the breed standards go. I know there are a lot of us that don't show that are working on it. But it's time for the big breeders to work on it. They don't care if the doe can feed it's kids because they will have other does do that since they just flush and show the really good does. Luckily it looks like that is going to have to change because the doe will now have to have kidded and had a bag. But I still think they will just throw the kids on dairy does or other does so they can get them back to show condition faster. I just saw the other day a guy pulled a 4 week old kid off his sannen doe to sell as a bottle baby so he could put his good show kids on her. He doesn't care if the month old kid lives or not. It sure is going to be hard to make that a bottle baby.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

And supporting kids is a major thing for people that don't show. I don't mind the whole dropping off weight when they kid, I can always fatten them back up but I won't buy anything out of a flush animal (not like I have the money now) because there is no proof on what that doe can do on raising that kid. Sure there is genetics behind the kid to help it grow but milk supply is a big part of it as well. And same goes with being able to kid. I had a nice doe that I had to pull her kids twice, and it wasn't these little let me help you out it was feet on her pulling. I culled her after the second time. The buyer felt bad who was also my friend so traded her younger sister with me. Still the same dang deal! I culled that one and didn't say a word so she wouldn't feel bad but try and tell me genetics didn't play a part there. Both were nice wide girls and it blew my mind.
But inner a man this last year that did the same thing as the saanen. He has a bunch of Nubians, would breed them, sell the kids as he needed them for triplets since his boers are worth more money. I could see selling them at birth but no way would it do it like that.


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