# Opinion on our 2 new market wethers please....



## PattiXmas (Jan 1, 2010)

My son and I switched the breeder we get his market wethers from this year. He shows through the 4H, and goes to a few other boer shows. He is planning on going to the Livestock Show this year at MSU. Can you give me your opinion on these two boys we just recently brought home. The traditional was born Jan 2, 2011 and the red was born on the 6th of January.

Like many other 4H'ers, they have to own them before May 1st. We also have to take them to the county's weigh in and have them weighed at that point and then again in July/Aug. He also has to take them and tag them in for other shows around that same time. We also have a deposit on one that was born on Sunday (03/06). Normally, he doesn't like the kids after January because of the growth and risk of not making weigh in. He has seen the buck of these kids, and was amazed at the size. I know that it's hard to tell from pics and they aren't the best, but can you give me a rough idea. We are also feeding a Kent Feed (18%), very little of my dairy feed (they like the sweetness - but this is also an 18%), very very little hay (to prevent the dreaded hay belly). We also have a bit of beet pulp that we are mixing in with the feed.

So, don't worry about being too rough on us, we know that they are young still, but would like a rough idea. He knows that he has to walk and work them, as soon as the weather warms up - we will get them out of the barn and build their playground equipment.



















This is the kid that was just born a few days ago -


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

From the picture I can clearly tell that one is a traditional and the other is a solid red. Both have been disbudded and appear to be healthy and have a nice layer of fat. Their coats seem to be shiny and healthy looking. All in all it looks like you have 2 really nice young wethers that have potential to be Really good show wethers. The red boy looks to be broad across his back as well...Beyond that I really can't tell too much more. If you stretch them out and get some front and rear and top pictures, Then we could see the real deal...But starting out with good looking healthy wethers is the key, and it looks like you have that.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I don't know the answers to your questions, but I just wanted to say they are beautiful kids! I can't wait to see more pics, and see how they turn out. How old is your son? THis will be my kids first year doing anything like 4-H, they are ages 9 and 12 - well my son turns 10 in May....I still can't believe it, they grow up so fast!


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

They all look healthy. As far as conformation, muscle and those type of things go its really hard to tell from the pictures. If you could get pictures from side standing, from the back and front then I can tell you better what I think.


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## PattiXmas (Jan 1, 2010)

My son turns 18 on the day they show their goats. He's been showing them since he was 13 (helped his friends at fair and also their old 4H dog leader who showed sanctioned), but through the 4H on his own since he was 14. 

Every year since he has started, he has taken the Grand Champion in his class (usually heavy weight), but would take Reserve Champion overall. It would irritate him so bad until we discovered the Grand Champion's mother (who was 4H leader) was providing her kid with a little extra boosts. While my son was feeding good food several times a day, walking the goats (or the goats walking him really) and providing fresh water, they were shooting their goats up with B12 and feeding Power Up supplements. I had told my son every year, that it didn't matter - he achieved a great accomplishment and he did it NATURALLY. 

This year, we are continuing with our natural, normal feed program but we did a few things differently. First off, we formed and joined a new 4H club and we bought our kids from a different breeder (we had been buying from our 4H leader's sister). We are super excited about this year, and cannot wait to see what these boys do. 

Right now, we are taking things slowly with the boys to gain their trust before handling them. I don't want him handling them like he has been taught (to be rough with them). I want him to be able to really get the feel of their bodies so he can see what needs to be watched and worked on. I'll post pics again of them being "stacked". Once the weather warms up a bit and they are a bit more relaxed, we will get them on the milk stand as well. 

Good luck to your kids at the fair! Remember to have fun, that is what it should be about. I didn't realize how dramatic and cut throat 4H was until we got into the "goats". 

Oh yeah, forgot about my daughter - she shows dairy - Nubians to be exact . We are waiting for our two does to kid! Can't wait to see what presents our ladies bring us! Also, we are in the process of purchasing two more Nubians from a top breeder in Michigan!!! We have our deposit down and just waiting to see what she picks out for us! We will be getting a first freshener and her doeling.


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## PattiXmas (Jan 1, 2010)

My son turns 18 on the day they show their goats. He's been showing them since he was 13 (helped his friends at fair and also their old 4H dog leader who showed sanctioned), but through the 4H on his own since he was 14. 

Every year since he has started, he has taken the Grand Champion in his class (usually heavy weight), but would take Reserve Champion overall. It would irritate him so bad until we discovered the Grand Champion's mother (who was 4H leader) was providing her kid with a little extra boosts. While my son was feeding good food several times a day, walking the goats (or the goats walking him really) and providing fresh water, they were shooting their goats up with B12 and feeding Power Up supplements. I had told my son every year, that it didn't matter - he achieved a great accomplishment and he did it NATURALLY. 

This year, we are continuing with our natural, normal feed program but we did a few things differently. First off, we formed and joined a new 4H club and we bought our kids from a different breeder (we had been buying from our 4H leader's sister). We are super excited about this year, and cannot wait to see what these boys do. 

Right now, we are taking things slowly with the boys to gain their trust before handling them. I don't want him handling them like he has been taught (to be rough with them). I want him to be able to really get the feel of their bodies so he can see what needs to be watched and worked on. I'll post pics again of them being "stacked". Once the weather warms up a bit and they are a bit more relaxed, we will get them on the milk stand as well. 

Good luck to your kids at the fair! Remember to have fun, that is what it should be about. I didn't realize how dramatic and cut throat 4H was until we got into the "goats". 

Oh yeah, forgot about my daughter - she shows dairy - Nubians to be exact . We are waiting for our two does to kid! Can't wait to see what presents our ladies bring us! Also, we are in the process of purchasing two more Nubians from a top breeder in Michigan!!! We have our deposit down and just waiting to see what she picks out for us! We will be getting a first freshener and her doeling.


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

PattiXmas said:


> her kid with a little extra boosts. ........ they were shooting their goats up with B12 and feeding Power Up supplements. I had told my son every year, that it didn't matter - he achieved a great accomplishment and he did it NATURALLY.
> 
> ....bought our kids from a different breeder (we had been buying from our 4H leader's sister). We are super excited about this year, and cannot wait to see what these boys do.


I have Never heard of these "extra boosts or Power-ups" but would be interested to hear what they might be....I only "Shoot-Up" BoSe and Vitamin B complex, both of which are actually rather "Natural", in my book anyway. And only to wethers that are very young. Injecting Older animals is too much of a risk, again In My Book.
I would be more apt to believe that your son did not win Gchamp because he bought his animals from a breeder, that apparently, sells to alot of the 4H kids and may have a vested interest in keeping a few of the best animals to show themselves. We have similar "production sales" in our area as well. It is a foolish idea to think that ANY of these breeders are going to sell you an animal that is better than one of their kids is going to show. Think of it this way: If I knew that you were going to buy a wether from me, and also knew most of the other competitors in a specific show were too and I also knew you would be showing , potentially, against one of my kids/nieces/nephews, Do you think I could sell you an animal that was Not Quite As good as the animals in my kids string?
Basically when a 4H kid comes to me to buy a wether, before ANYTHING else happens, I find out in what county fair he/she intends to show the animal. Should the answer be "any other county besides mine" they get the Top Shelf options....Should they say "in My county" they are dropped down into the "next best wether" class. I do not cheat them or mislead them...I simply tell them as it is " I am not going to sell you an animal that I Think might beat one of my kids at OUR county fair". We may see them at the state fair or at a sanctioned show and that is OK but not Our Own County. I AM SURE OTHER BREEDERS WITH KIDS FOLLOW THE SAME GUIDELINES...This follows the same with calves,pigs,horses,what have you...JMO


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## PattiXmas (Jan 1, 2010)

This is why we decided to switch 4H groups. The first year she used Show Bloom, then for the two years, it has been powders you put in their water and a red pelleted supplement in their feed. Her son let it "slip" out to my kids and we started watching them and seeing how things were going. We didn't want to be in the "cheating" club, we didn't want to continue to promote her sister's farm. We are super excited, and can't wait. 

I understand what the B12 does, it increases their appetite and energy, but what does the Bo-Se do? We have never used either of these on any of our goats. Do you think this will help increase his chances to take Grand overall? Or should we just stick with what we've been doing but increase the exercise?


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I don't know anything about Boers, but what pretty boys!


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

Show Bloom is actually Brewers Yeast, which again is rather natural, it would be a Probiotic product hardly considered a "Banned Substance". I top dress with Opti-zyme, essentially the same thing. Red pelleted Supplement? My Goat Power Meat wether mineral is red pelleted and I, also, top dress with it, as well. Again it is relatively natural.....So I must also be Cheating? Or maybe it is just using all the available resources sparing No Cost. Thus seperating the Top from the Rest...I agree that if this person is the Project leader that they should provide all the competitors with a suggested ration and even some of their own personal "tips" to help educate the other 4H kids. But calling someone a cheater because they Win is dangerous ground...Speaking from the point of view of a person that has been Accused of cheating at the 4H level, wrongfully I might add....But I am not a 4H leader rather just a breeder/showman not afraid to spen a little money...


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## PattiXmas (Jan 1, 2010)

Wow - I am shocked at your attitude. While I understand dangerous grounds, I also understand right and wrong. Sparing no costs to properly feed your animals and provide them with the best out there is not a issue. It is an issue when this is suppose to be about the kids - for the kids, yet parents take it way beyond that and aren't really teaching their kids how to care for their animals. 

This is also a County 4H Fair - it's not a sanctioned event. She also buys her goats back because she doesn't want the goat to be checked prior to slaughtering. I apologize if I offended you - I honestly just wanted an opinion of the wethers and whether or not our feed program was adequate. Thanks for your help!

(The red pellet they use is not a mineral. I am trying to find what it is - can't remember the name right now).


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I have to agree with ()relics here B12 and Power Punch are all natural supplements. B12 is a vitamin and PowerPunch is a vitamin supplement like Nutri Drench (what I use). The other two I am not familiar with but it seems ()relics is and he showed you what they are made of. 

I think that they were keeping a secret on how they got their goat to look as it did but they weren't cheating. Unless there is a strict rule that the goats cant not have anything other then grain (but again some grains have these supplements in them so thats makes it hard, which grain is ok and which is not ok??) and a little hay then she and her son did nothing wrong just used their knowledge of how the goats bodies work to achiever a better result. 

More then likely it was the best choice over all to go to a different breeder for a higher chance of winning as was mentioned already the sister wasnt going to sell you top stock if her nephew was to show against you  and changing 4H groups helps to keep from creating issues and fights with the other leader and hopefully because your son is now aging out of 4H he can maybe become a leader/mentor of this group.

But I dont want this thread to get to sidetracked from your original intent unless you would like to discuss it further yourself :thumbup: 

Congrats on your purchases they look nice


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh and you asked what Bo-Se does. Well BoSe is Selenium and Vit E Goats need this and a lot of places are lacking in selenium. I give it to my goats who look hocky and to any kids who are weak and cant suck at birth or are wobbly on their back legs for longer then is usual. If a goat is selenium deficient then she could have a retained placenta after kidding. Selenium deficiency causes weak pasterns as well. 

Some areas of the country are high in selenium and those goats who live and forage off the land (or get hay and grain from surround areas that are high in selenium) should not be given Bo-Se as Selenium poisoning could happen and to reverse the effects is not possible.


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## PattiXmas (Jan 1, 2010)

We have a selenium paste that we use sometimes. I haven't used Bo-Se, is this something we should have on hand? This is something you can only get from a vet right? The Vit B's can be gotten at a feed store correct? 

If the goats are all doing fine, growing and healthy, does that mean that we don't have to give them the Bo-Se? I guess what I was also looking for was to see if the feed and minerals are adequate.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

in many cases loose minerals and feeds have enough Selenium in them. If they start to look hocky or weak in the pasterns then they need selenium. Yes BoSe is an RX and you need to get it from a vet. 

Bcomplex and B12 are injectables usually but I think there is also paste form of it. Yes I know my TSC carries it.


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## nagismom (Sep 25, 2010)

I top dress kids feed with calf manna. It's red pellets; could be what they are using. You can get it at TSC or almost any feed store.


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