# Breeding for quality



## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

I was strolling through a goat facebook page today. The biggest thing ive noticed people using the excuse that they are only breeding for pets to excuse poor conformation. so this is my issue, Breeding for quality is so much more then just for shows. It helps the goats quality of life. Maybe they arent top grade but if you are going to breed then breed for a goat that will have an easier life. Strong legs will help them, wide barrels, well attached udders, long necks, deep chests. Yes ribbons and legs and trophies are a strong drive to better breeding but in the long run its for the goats to have a better quality of life. 
If there is anything ive missed feel free to add. 

:rant smilie:


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I think the debate is larger than just pets versus show.

I don't think breeding for quality is only for show. I don't care for show at all, in fact, I think some of the preparations and methods of showing are contrary to animal health & production & quality. I breed quality animals for longevity, health, and production. Ultimately, breeding quality animals makes the most financial sense.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

salteylove said:


> i think the debate is larger than just pets versus show.
> 
> I don't think breeding for quality is only for show. I don't care for show at all, in fact, i think some of the preparations and methods of showing are contrary to animal health & production & quality. I breed quality animals for longevity, health, and production. Ultimately, breeding quality animals makes the most financial sense.


100% agree!!!!


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

Exactly!!! It drives me crazy!!! I don't have perfect animals by any means but it has been and always will be my goal to better my stock!


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

I only do dairy and not really sure about breeding for meat but the ADGA standards and ideals seem pretty reasonable to me.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm sure their standards are reasonable because they have thought of everything. Same with the boers. But there's other things that go along with it as well. Health. For me if one is always sick I cull. Will it be passed down? Maybe maybe it's just the animal but why chance it. Things like health, number of offspring, and ADG are the most important. I mean if I have a animal that meets the bill on standards but is always wormy or only gives me a single I'll replace it with a animal that doesn't meet the bill in a heart beat


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## Lisalisa89 (Oct 18, 2016)

My biggest thing about breeding registered good quality stock is because people who buy them are more likely to be able to afford their care and not just neglect them. If people are getting free and cheap they don't have anything put into the animal to even care just to rehome or let it suffer. I mean I am not rich or even the most financially stable person in the world but I want my babies to have a home and a good home!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

So glad you posted about this topic. I show occasionally ,but I am always trying to better my line to show quality standards. I don't maintain a large herd so I can afford to spend the $$ and time required, thus I don't qualify for a LA stop (closest host herd is hours away) and DHIR doesn't fit into my milking program. Agree health is #1 and testing stock for disease and maintaining herd health along with production should be paramount.
Pet goats can be well taken care of, however many times new owners don't understand the time, money and energy it takes to maintain healthy goats. I rarely sell anything for a pet and won't breed anything with too many faults.
Thanks for this topic - it can be a little controversial.......:smile:


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

It is a controversial topic. It's the breeding for pet quality and people thinking thats an excuse to not care about conformation. But are you going to by a puppy out of a dam that has a bad back and is crippled before the age of 4, no so why would you do that with a goat. If your boobs sage to your belly button in your twenties and that's pretty painfully then why would you keep breeding goats like that. Breeding for a purpose is the main thing. Why are you breeding, is it just for cute cuddly babies or is it for milk production or for slaughter etc


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Goatzrule said:


> Why are you breeding, is it just for cute cuddly babies or is it for milk production or for slaughter.


I breed for all three. lol


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

100% agree.
If health, longevity, and production equals quality animals, that's great!
My goal is to not have to sell pet quality animals. I'm hoping I'm close to that goal, LA will tell me a lot.

I want my animals to have long, healthful lives, in good homes. I want to sell to people who are willing to spend a little more for quality stock, have studied and are knowledgeable and will take proper care of them. 
That said, of course some newbie goat owners take great care of there pet goats,they learn what needs to be done and are good owners, but all to often people buy cheep goats for the novelty of having a pet goat, then get bored with them after the hype wears off and the goats get neglected or sub par care.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think everyone has their own idea of what they want in their herd as well as what they can afford. Now I totally get what you are saying about the udders and what not, really I do but how I started was with a bunch of culls. I don't regret it one bit really. As I could afford it as well as learn what I am ok with and not my standards have changed a bunch. Being that I have a limit and can't keep anything my standards will continue to be higher. But when I started I had a doe named pepper. Really I was new and didn't know jack and she had the worst attachment. I only had a few goats so it wasn't a big deal to keep working with the kids and getting them patched on. Eventually my herd grew, I was slowly getting nicer stock so pepper went down the road. Pepper still gave me enough money to support herself and a little in my pocket she just didn't meet my demands any more. As for pets, I don't breed for pets and to be honest I'm good sending my kids off to butcher then them ever getting into the hands of someone who will abuse them. But honestly I wouldn't get upset with anyone if their cull factors were not like mine. If I was asked my opinion I would give it and why and pretty much let them learn like I did.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Jessica84 said:


> I think everyone has their own idea of what they want in their herd as well as what they can afford. Now I totally get what you are saying about the udders and what not, really I do but how I started was with a bunch of culls. I don't regret it one bit really. As I could afford it as well as learn what I am ok with and not my standards have changed a bunch. Being that I have a limit and can't keep anything my standards will continue to be higher. But when I started I had a doe named pepper. Really I was new and didn't know jack and she had the worst attachment. I only had a few goats so it wasn't a big deal to keep working with the kids and getting them patched on. Eventually my herd grew, I was slowly getting nicer stock so pepper went down the road. Pepper still gave me enough money to support herself and a little in my pocket she just didn't meet my demands any more. As for pets, I don't breed for pets and to be honest I'm good sending my kids off to butcher then them ever getting into the hands of someone who will abuse them. But honestly I wouldn't get upset with anyone if their cull factors were not like mine. If I was asked my opinion I would give it and why and pretty much let them learn like I did.


I hear ya, most of my goats are rescues or craigslist rejects. lol

I sell to other backyard milkers and so far I have kept in contact with all the goats I've sold. This year I'll be butchering I think.


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

Jessica84 said:


> I think everyone has their own idea of what they want in their herd as well as what they can afford. Now I totally get what you are saying about the udders and what not, really I do but how I started was with a bunch of culls. I don't regret it one bit really. As I could afford it as well as learn what I am ok with and not my standards have changed a bunch. Being that I have a limit and can't keep anything my standards will continue to be higher. But when I started I had a doe named pepper. Really I was new and didn't know jack and she had the worst attachment. I only had a few goats so it wasn't a big deal to keep working with the kids and getting them patched on. Eventually my herd grew, I was slowly getting nicer stock so pepper went down the road. Pepper still gave me enough money to support herself and a little in my pocket she just didn't meet my demands any more. As for pets, I don't breed for pets and to be honest I'm good sending my kids off to butcher then them ever getting into the hands of someone who will abuse them. But honestly I wouldn't get upset with anyone if their cull factors were not like mine. If I was asked my opinion I would give it and why and pretty much let them learn like I did.


Agree, I started off with what I could afford(which wasn't a lot haha). They may not be perfect, but I'm working my way up, that's part of the fun, at least it is for me. It's fun seeing the Improvement and looking back on how far we've come.

I wish I could cull like you, but I'm emotional about that kinda thing, its not something I can physically deal with at this point in my life. Plus I don't eat meat and I don't know anyone who does around here. I don't like the idea of not knowing if my baby's are being taken care of or neglected and I'd rater butcher them, maybe someday I'll be able to butcher and sell/donate the meat. It's something I think I may work on getting over.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

I started off the same way. Knowing your herd needs improvement and being willing to improve, not just breeding to get as many babies as you can. Creating good lines takes time and money, but being educated on body structure and why breeding for good conformation is the biggest thing.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh don't get me wrong I have a few of my bottle babies that should be culled but I can't do it. If I ever found a forever home I probably could but then again I have a 5 year old buck that only has 3 girls I can breed to because he's worked himself out of a job hi I can't get rid of him. He is on my list of when I die you must keep lol but like the bottle babies their kids will never be sold privately, they will only go for butcher and I won't keep them. But I'm happy to say I only have 2 lol but it pays their feed bill. So I totally understand having a attachment.
You are very right goatzrule! I honestly think as long as someone is open to admit and understand faults of a animal and willing to learn goes a long ways. As you stated there are standards for every breed and those standards are there with a lot of thought behind them. Do I think I have one goat that meets all their breed standards? No probably not but I'm closer then I was when I first started. 
And moonshadow it is so fun to see! I just got done looking at what I had 6 years ago and I had to kinda puff my chest up with pride at how far I have come. Like I said I think I still have a long ways to go but I've also come a long ways too......just very slowly since I think other things are more a priority then conformation. But I'm getting there lol


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## Lisalisa89 (Oct 18, 2016)

I am starting from nothing too lol I bought my buck without papers but will be buying his papers soon. Then I bought my Butterscotch who is a cross and then I also bought Ruby who the people I bought her from didn't tell me why she was so cheap just told me what breeder they bought her from so I contacted her asking if Ruby was infertile and what do ya know she is! So Now I am attached to a goat that can never give me babies just cost me money and I keep thinking I need to sale her but I just don't think I can. The breeder was highly attached to her too. I will be purchasing a doe from her this spring I am very excited to be buying from her stock some more. It is going to take me many many years to get anything out of this because of how much I need to put out for my registered babies so I will have someone backyard goats who will give me milk to make things with and to sale off some babies here and there.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Lisalisa89 said:


> I am starting from nothing too lol I bought my buck without papers but will be buying his papers soon. Then I bought my Butterscotch who is a cross and then I also bought Ruby who the people I bought her from didn't tell me why she was so cheap just told me what breeder they bought her from so I contacted her asking if Ruby was infertile and what do ya know she is! So Now I am attached to a goat that can never give me babies just cost me money and I keep thinking I need to sale her but I just don't think I can. The breeder was highly attached to her too. I will be purchasing a doe from her this spring I am very excited to be buying from her stock some more. It is going to take me many many years to get anything out of this because of how much I need to put out for my registered babies so I will have someone backyard goats who will give me milk to make things with and to sale off some babies here and there.


I have an infertile female too. Thankfully she was given to me and I didn't pay for her but I spend a lot of money on her feed.


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## Lisalisa89 (Oct 18, 2016)

I didn't pay to much for her luckily. She's just the best goat in the world! She would have made the best mother too  I honestly think if my one goat doesn't take to her baby she will mother it lol


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Another thing is people just breeding for color I love a flashy goat as much as the next and don't get me wrong I have bought a doe for color before but that shouldn't be the biggest deciding factor in buying a goat


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh that is terrible! I have a doe that won't breed, well I got one kid out of her and I have treated her twice for being cystic. So far I haven't seen her come back into heat but not holding my breath. If I draw blood and she is open I DO NOT want my name attached to that goat, she will go to the sale where she will probably be butchered. That's another thing. I don't think people take pride in a lot of things now a days! Knowingly selling a animal that can't breed is so wrong! If she loved that doe which maybe that's why she did it she could have been honest about it and found someone that needed a buddy for a buck. She would be perfect for that!
Ok color I have mixed feeling on lol with boers dapples are the it thing right now. People pay CRAZY money for them. Do I have dapples? You betcha! I like them, it makes kidding so much fun and yeah I admit I like the extra money. Now I do agree with you color is not everything but if someone wants to pay extra for color who am I to say anything. But again I don't care if a animal is dapples or not she doesn't meet what I want and I won't keep her. I actually have 4, 5 counting the one that might not have bred that will be leaving. Same thing though if I have $500 and there are 2 goats for sale a dapple that doesn't meet what I want and a boring traditional that is what I like that traditional is coming home. Really my goal is to have it all lol I want the color, good health, hardiness, conformation and color and it goes in that order. But I look at it as I don't want anyone talking badly about me for not having conformation as #1 so I won't say anything if color is their #1.........that doesn't mean inside my head I'm not screaming you paid how much because it had spots lol but like I said even if spots were not so wanted I would still want them because it makes kidding so much fun!


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Not saying you can't have best of both worlds. Color and confirmation! My well bred buck is tricky colored and throws every different color you can think of. I have people on a waiting list just for the color but they are also willing to cough up a little more cash for the bloodlines. I guess it's the difference in coming down to the goats health. Confirmation helps their quality of life and the smallest backyard breeder should have a basic understanding of body structure. It's just a big pet peeves. I personally put it under the category of irresponsible breeding. Same with the breeders who lie about health problems or have too many goats and not enough land.


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## Lisalisa89 (Oct 18, 2016)

The breeder she came from didn't sale her to me though she sold her and quite a few bucks to someone and I bought them from the other people and it's the other people who were not honest lol the breeder has been nothing but amazing to me and has helped me with every question I have thankfully. She breeders for conformation and not flashy kids but I see her upping the price on those moon spotted ones lol make your money no pain in that gain lol


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

After years of trying to improve my herd, I do have some color this year BUT reservations on my kids are for the bloodlines, health testing, etc and not the color. If that is what the focus is for a prospective buyer, I will pass......


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

My opinion on showing and breeding quality dairy goats. 
Pretty much everything goats(dairy at least) are judged on at shows or LA, against the ADGA scorecard contribute to the goat’s productivity or longevity. A dairy goat is bred for milk production. Traits that are desirable in goats bred for the show ring are traits that are desirable in any dairy goat, whether you are showing, breeding just for milk or if you just have a few goats in your backyard providing milk for your family. Or even a pet!
“The goal of the unified scorecard is to aid in selection of the type of dairy goat that can function efficiently over a long productive lifetime” 
A goat with strong feet and legs, & short strong pasterns is going to hold up well into their old age. Depth in the heart girth, barrel & brisket provide plenty of room for the lungs and rest of the goat’s organs. Width throughout means easier kidding. A level rump provides support for the udder, making it less likely to break down over time. A well attached udder will hold up well for years, whereas a doe with weak attachments will break down over time, which can lead to udder health problems. You want a dairy goat that conforms to the scorecard, whether you plan to show or not. Herds that show breed for milk production. I show and start LA this year. Using tools like showing, LA, DHIR etc. helps you to build a herd of strong productive goats. I don’t know any herd that just breeds goats to do well in the show ring. They are dairy goats, they are ultimately bred for producing milk. True, not all good milkers have great conformations, and not all goats with good conformation will milk well. But generally, they go hand in hand.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lisalisa89 said:


> The breeder she came from didn't sale her to me though she sold her and quite a few bucks to someone and I bought them from the other people and it's the other people who were not honest lol the breeder has been nothing but amazing to me and has helped me with every question I have thankfully. She breeders for conformation and not flashy kids but I see her upping the price on those moon spotted ones lol make your money no pain in that gain lol


Oh no I knew what you meant! I was shaming on the person who actually sold her to you knowing she wouldn't breed. I wouldn't blame the breeder at all if she didn't know about it. She can't control what happens once it leaves her hands. Like my doe I won't blame the breeder at all! I'm pretty sure it was my fault. She was able to breed, I gave her lute and now no settling.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

A doe I bought a little while back turned out to be gay. Not only that shes a wack-a-doo and as it turns out it was genetic. She was a friend of ours and sold her to us as mother's day price of $75. I thought it was a great deal until I realized how mentally messed up the doe is. After that ive vowed to never do business with close friends. We no longer breed that doe, my mom wont sell her, wont slaughter so im at a loss of what I can do with her. She beats every other of our goats in the showring and if i were to breed her again id remove the kids, but she just makes choring no fun


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