# Nubian bucks



## EmilyZ2012

I have 3 Nubian bucks and now that I feel like I have a pretty good foundation herd of does, I want to figure out what I'm doing with bucks. All three of these guys have great pedigrees and come from good milking genetics, the black having the best, but I wanted to see what people think about their conformation. Both of the bucks pictured are 2 years old. The third is 8 and dislocated a shoulder a few months ago, so I'm not going to bother with a picture. He is Flights of Fancy A1 Kryptonite and I'm keeping him until he dies. Would the other two be worth hanging onto, or sell both and buy up or sell one and keep the other? I don't know what the dam to the black and white one looks like, but the black buck's dam scored a 90 VVEE several years in a row and his sire has a star.


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## SalteyLove

Commenting to bump your post up! I'm no dairy expert but to my eyes the first guy far outweighs the second but it's just one photograph


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## groovyoldlady

I agree. There are some positives for both of them, but first buck a bit better. However, it would be easier to judge them if they were "set up" for the side photo and if you had a nice photo of them head on (to judge width) and from the rear.


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## nicolemackenzie

I don't like the first one.
Short body
Long pasterns
Posty
Short rump
Lacks brisket
Legs are not smooth and straight. 
Lacks blending 

Second guy has a nice brisket
Straighter front legs
Stronger feet and legs

But us also steep in the rump and weak in chine .
Not as masculine as first buck.

Are either of them stronger in areas your does are weak in?


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## nicolemackenzie

But maybe it's just the photos.


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## EmilyZ2012

nicolemackenzie said:


> I don't like the first one.
> Short body
> Long pasterns
> Posty
> Short rump
> Lacks brisket
> Legs are not smooth and straight.
> Lacks blending
> 
> Second guy has a nice brisket
> Straighter front legs
> Stronger feet and legs
> 
> But us also steep in the rump and weak in chine .
> Not as masculine as first buck.
> 
> Are either of them stronger in areas your does are weak in?


Thank you for replying! I never felt like the black one had good conformation, but I bought him for the milking genetics. He should improve udders in my herd. I honestly don't think the black and white will improve anything in my herd, but rather keep me where I am now, so I think the best thing for me is to sell him. He was given to me, so I didn't want to pass up a free registered goat! The main things I'm trying to fix are udders and top lines. Most of my girls are high in the hips and could use better udder attachment.


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## nicolemackenzie

What is the third Bucks strengths ?


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## EmilyZ2012

nicolemackenzie said:


> What is the third Bucks strengths ?











Here's an older picture of him. Not the best, but the best I have. His dam had good udder structure and attachments and he has a better top line than any of my other boys and nice brisket extension. I'm not good at looking at legs and know he's standing on a hill here, so he's not lined up like he could be. I can get a picture of him currently, but he'll look funny. The vet said to leave the dislocated shoulder and let it heal in place, so that's what I did.


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## nicolemackenzie

Nice brisket, rear leg angulation, and I like how his legs are thicker and stronger looking. I really dislike spindly legs. Do you have daughters from him?


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## capracreek

This is my personal thought only but if you want to also improve top lines which are very important to the overall structure and long term performance I would buy up. You won't go up unless you correct some of the faults it just becomes part of your overall herd structure. This comes from breeding and showing Dobermans for years so might not apply to goats but I still have to have a strong top line as it supports the goat


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## EmilyZ2012

nicolemackenzie said:


> Nice brisket, rear leg angulation, and I like how his legs are thicker and stronger looking. I really dislike spindly legs. Do you have daughters from him?


Yes, I have 3 doelings from him this year. Here are the two I have decent pictures of.


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## EmilyZ2012

capracreek said:


> This is my personal thought only but if you want to also improve top lines which are very important to the overall structure and long term performance I would buy up. You won't go up unless you correct some of the faults it just becomes part of your overall herd structure. This comes from breeding and showing Dobermans for years so might not apply to goats but I still have to have a strong top line as it supports the goat


Thank you for your input!


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## nicolemackenzie

Do you have a preference for PB over American? Just curious.

What are the other two's registered names?


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## EmilyZ2012

nicolemackenzie said:


> Do you have a preference for PB over American? Just curious.
> 
> What are the other two's registered names?


For bucks, I prefer purebred, but I'm not picky about does. I have an NOA doe, 3 American does, and a grade doeling(the red one). The black one is Udderly Southern Harley and the other is McCord Clan Farm AJ.


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## nicolemackenzie

So Harley's sire had average shoulders and back and only a good rump

http://adgagenetics.org/PedigreePrint.aspx?RegNumber=N001719767

Harley's dam only had good shoulders and only average feet. Back and rump are very good. Udder went from E as a four year old to only a good as a five year old... wonder why.
http://adgagenetics.org/PedigreePrint.aspx?RegNumber=N001471823

Her type eval is pretty good except in the rump but doesn't have good percent reliability.

So... I'd say you're going to lose shoulders with Harley. On your does out of the old guy/does with good shoulders you might be ok.

He looks to have inherited not great feet so I wouldn't breed him to anyone with bad feet.

Do you know why his dams udder LA score dropped so much?

There is nothing in the pedigree that tells me he could throw really stellar udders ( not enough data)

He's also an outcross so probably more genetic variation and who knows really what you'd get.

I couldn't find anything on AJ but I like his structure better.

You could always try breeding each one to does that are strong in their weaknesses and see what you get but be willing to cull.

I like your old guy


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## nicolemackenzie

I didn't know if you had any PB does because if you did then I'd only breed them PB because once American you're always american.

If your does however are already American you can open yourself up to a bigger buck market. You can probably buy a very nice American buck for a bit less than a PB buck ( depending on your market) just because of the stigma Nubian breeders tend to put on Americans.


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## nicolemackenzie

I might feel different about them with set up pictures and from front and back


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## EmilyZ2012

nicolemackenzie said:


> So Harley's sire had average shoulders and back and only a good rump
> 
> http://adgagenetics.org/PedigreePrint.aspx?RegNumber=N001719767
> 
> Harley's dam only had good shoulders and only average feet. Back and rump are very good. Udder went from E as a four year old to only a good as a five year old... wonder why.
> http://adgagenetics.org/PedigreePrint.aspx?RegNumber=N001471823
> 
> Her type eval is pretty good except in the rump but doesn't have good percent reliability.
> 
> So... I'd say you're going to lose shoulders with Harley. On your does out of the old guy/does with good shoulders you might be ok.
> 
> He looks to have inherited not great feet so I wouldn't breed him to anyone with bad feet.
> 
> Do you know why his dams udder LA score dropped so much?
> 
> There is nothing in the pedigree that tells me he could throw really stellar udders ( not enough data)
> 
> He's also an outcross so probably more genetic variation and who knows really what you'd get.
> 
> I couldn't find anything on AJ but I like his structure better.
> 
> You could always try breeding each one to does that are strong in their weaknesses and see what you get but be willing to cull.
> 
> I like your old guy


I just want to say thank you very much for taking the time to help me! Harley's dam foundered and walks on her front knees now. She was also quite overweight. I'm assuming this is why her score dropped so much. Should I take that into account as well? AJ doesn't have any LA scores in his pedigree unless you go quite a ways back. After reading through your advice and going out and really looking at the boys, I'm just going to sell Harley and AJ and find someone better. I absolutely despised Harley during rut anyway, so I wanted to sell him for that reason  he jumped the fence with electric and barbed wire on top and bred 7 does he wasn't supposed to and then gave me almost all boys... not a fan.


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## ArborGoats

Waves goodbye to Harley, he definitely isn't nice enough to me to tolerate that nonsense! You had better be something really special for the aggravation of being a jumper. 

Do you have breeders or bucks in mind to look at?


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## EmilyZ2012

ArborGoats said:


> Waves goodbye to Harley, he definitely isn't nice enough to me to tolerate that nonsense! You had better be something really special for the aggravation of being a jumper.
> 
> Do you have breeders or bucks in mind to look at?


I do. I've been looking at a buckling out of pleasant places glory b and clarion got2btrue or maybe a different buckling from pleasant places.


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## nicolemackenzie

One other thing I look at besides the merit of the animals is relation to the animals you already have. I was taught ~8% inbred was a good goal. The goal being to find a goat that is going to cross well with your lines. Now I haven't been doing it long enough to really find the magic number on my own.

I love genetics!

Clarion/Pella triple C have very nice animals.


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## nicolemackenzie

I'd like a buck from that cross much better. Glory looks nice.


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## EmilyZ2012

nicolemackenzie said:


> I'd like a buck from that cross much better. Glory looks nice.


I'm going to go look at her buckling on Saturday!


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## nicolemackenzie

Let us know what you think


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## EmilyZ2012

Glory's buckling is very nice and so were his parents and maternal grand dam! The folks at pleasant places are fantastic and very knowledgeable. I feel very good about it all.


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## nicolemackenzie

I like him! He's young so hard to really judge.

Nice level topline and rump
Good rear leg angulation
Seems to have good proportions in general
Nice short pasterns

He looks a little loose in the elbow though

If you liked udders on dam and grand-dam I say go for it!


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## nicolemackenzie

I think I like your little brown doeling better than the flashy one. 

She seems more level and has a stronger brisket.

The little Buckling looks like he would add length to them.


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## EmilyZ2012

nicolemackenzie said:


> I like him! He's young so hard to really judge.
> 
> Nice level topline and rump
> Good rear leg angulation
> Seems to have good proportions in general
> Nice short pasterns
> 
> He looks a little loose in the elbow though
> 
> If you liked udders on dam and grand-dam I say go for it!


He's going to be 2 months next week. I think he's a step up from what I have and I'm going to go ahead and bring him home!


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## EmilyZ2012

nicolemackenzie said:


> I think I like your little brown doeling better than the flashy one.
> 
> She seems more level and has a stronger brisket.
> 
> The little Buckling looks like he would add length to them.


The solid colored doeling comes from my favorite doe, who is the native on appearance doe. She's my profile picture. She also had a buckling from that breeding. I'm retaining the doeling.


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## nicolemackenzie

No shame in NOA! She's lovely.


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