# Proposal for required DNA testing for ADGA bucks. Thoughts?



## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

So I don't know if anyone else has been following the proposal for DNA testing for bucks through ADGA yet?
As far as I understand, ADGA will require all bucks, 2020 and going forward have DNA testing done in order for their kids to be eligible for registration.

I would like your thoughts and comments, also please the boer breeders - I understand you all do that currently. Like to know your thoughts on pro's, con's, etc. and how it works within your association.

Thanks for the input. This has not been passed yet, but is a strong possibility based on the poking around that I have done.

Thanks for your thoughts. Suzanne


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## LaManchamaniac (Dec 8, 2016)

goatblessings said:


> So I don't know if anyone else has been following the proposal for DNA testing for bucks through ADGA yet?
> As far as I understand, ADGA will require all bucks, 2020 and going forward have DNA testing done in order for their kids to be eligible for registration.
> 
> I would like your thoughts and comments, also please the boer breeders - I understand you all do that currently. Like to know your thoughts on pro's, con's, etc. and how it works within your association.
> ...


Im especially interested how LaManchas will be handled since they still have an open heard book.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It doesn't change anything as far as how any breed is handled. It just means your registration paper will say *DNA on file* just as it already does for bucks who've been tested for G6S and/or parentage. 
Mostly it just means that it will cost $30 more to own your own buck and UC Davis is going to make a fortune lol.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Yes, it is for all breeds. Mind you this still has not been voted on. It DOES mean that any kid born to a buck without DNA typing on file will not be eligible for registration. So if you want registered kids, you have to have the DNA testing done for your buck. Man, does UC Davis sell stock? Might be the time to buy...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Huh? It passed committee 14 to 2 with 2 abstaining. The board of directors already has it.

It only affects bucks born after 1-1-20.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

AGHHH - I thought they were still in the talking stage. Time creeps up on me....... it will be 2020 before I know it! Oh well, UC Davis is smiling!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

My thoughts are, I'm going to go ahead and test my current buck and the one I have on reserve when he's born. This will establish a genetic pattern in my herd before crunch time. 
That first year or two of implementation is going to be a mess. I won't be adding any new bucks during that time period.

It is going to improve the integrity of the pedigree record and make cheating harder. 
It will weed out nondairy blood from the herd slowly, especially in the NOA category. 
It will be a bit more of a pain for owners so, they will think more about who they use for breeding. 
It will ensure Nigerian blood is staying where it belongs. (I wonder if Nigerian and pygmy markers can be told apart yet? )
It will eliminate some "goatling mill" practices. 

It has some cons too but overall, I see more good in it from a hobby breeders standpoint. 
People don't like change but, once they're used to it, they won't find it so hard.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I agree. I just tested for G6S, so I will be testing my current buck, and the one I have on reserve (same as you!) - probably in the spring when I get my new little guy so I can just do them together. Figure it's best just to go ahead and get it done instead of waiting until crunch time. 
You make some very valid points. Especially about being more critical as to who to use for a buck. I like to think I've been dealing with reputable breeders when I do buy - many of their bucks already have DNA testing done - BUT if and when the time comes to look elsewhere, it will be nice to be assured of lineage.

I do have a question for you. If you decide to sell any bucklings as potential herdsires after evaluation, would you as the seller have him tested, or would you leave that up to the buyer?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That would partly depend on the category I put the buck in I guess. Truthfully, most of the goats I've sold have never been registered or transferred lol.

Okay, but say I have a drop dead gorgeous buckling that's going the take the show world by storm and put my herd on the map. He would preferably be born in January. Milk, grain, and alfalfa... All kids get that. 
Registration $7.00
DNA testing $30.00
April, a nice big boy older than most in his class. On to the shows... For sale sign in hand lol. 
Get one leg on his CH yay 
Linear Appraisal 
October... test for CAE, CL, brucelliosis, and TB. 
Sell in time for breeding season... Walk away with $1200...


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

.........and win the lottery on the way to the shows, with my fancy new truck and trailer!!! OK - back down to earth for me


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

i think it's a good idea


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

It will send a lot more nice bucks to the sale for meat. I think they already charge too much for buck registrations.

Something like this, they should have an election for all ADGA members. When your dues are due, you vote yay or nay for buck DNA. (That rhymes!)


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

We were really angry at first too, but have been doing it for a while and it does make since.
It fades out all the cheaters, who have made up papers for goats who were not registered ones ect, so that is the big plus, no more cheating.

Our DNA kit costs $33

With ABGA, you can register all bucks, no problem, because we have to have his registration number for the sample to match with the right goat. Then we request his DNA kit.

After receiving DNA kit, either by email, we can order it online and print it out an go by the instructions or call in, they will mail the DNA kit. But takes longer.

Collect the samples as suggested, and go by the instructions, then send them in.
You will have to mail the DNA kit to the address indicated, plus, the other paper they require to the goat association. 

After receiving the DNA sticker and results, we put the sticker on the registration paper, top right corner, then we are all set for his offspring to be registered. Without DNA on file, his kids cannot be registered.

At first it was a nightmare waiting and waiting for the DNA results to come back, they were months behind with DNA's being done. So it will take a while at first, until all the crowd is faded out.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Thank you for your insight. Given this information, I will do mine this spring. Better to get a head start. I've done the G6S using ADGA, and it was pretty easy, they sent all the instructions, forms, etc. - so I think it will be very similar to what you have experienced. I'm not against doing DNA for my bucks as I do see benefits. 
I think my biggest question is selling bucklings as potential herdsires. One thought is that the buyer should do it - as this is another expense, however, if there should be a problem, I'm not the one to collect the sample and send it in.
Would like your experience and thoughts about this.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I didn't like it at first, the added fee on top of all the other fees of being a member and registering animals. Now, it doesn't bother me as much. The test itself on our end is very easy. I do agree, when this first started it took FOREVER to get the email with directions, and even longer for results. Since then, quick and easy.
I think it does help give a sense of security in what you are breeding. I think in the long run it will help weed out cheaters, or people who mess up on paperwork, 'who is the daddy?', etc.

Once the buck is DNA tested, you can register doe or buck kids. But if the buck kids are used or sold to be used as breeding animals they would need to be DNA tested before their offspring could be registered, etc. etc.
IMO you can either do the DNA testing yourself, or let the buyer decide if they want to do it.
Right now we have 2 young registered boer buck kids we'll be selling. Since we've sold so many as commercial sires in the past, we'll wait to see if buyer wants them DNA tested. 
I don't mind doing the test, but it will be at the buyers expense. If they really want the animal, they will want to invest a little $$ into this, or, they can walk away.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I hate the idea. We already have enough expenses and paperwork to deal with. Not to mention the extra time It will take to mail in hair samples and wait for the lab to finish typing and getting the paperwork back. 

It's going to be what...$50 per buck to get registered and typed?

Why is ADGA wanting to do this? Do they have a statement on this proposal? I've heard about it here and there, but has it already passed?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

goatblessings said:


> Thank you for your insight. Given this information, I will do mine this spring. Better to get a head start. I've done the G6S using ADGA, and it was pretty easy, they sent all the instructions, forms, etc. - so I think it will be very similar to what you have experienced. I'm not against doing DNA for my bucks as I do see benefits.
> I think my biggest question is selling bucklings as potential herdsires. One thought is that the buyer should do it - as this is another expense, however, if there should be a problem, I'm not the one to collect the sample and send it in.
> Would like your experience and thoughts about this.


 No problem. 

If you have a buck who bred your does and are selling, make absolutely sure, you have his DNA on file before he leaves, you cannot rely on the buyer to get it done, after they purchase the buck, you cannot make them later, if they do not wish to. 
If you do not do this, you will have unregistered stock to deal with.

On the other hand, if you are selling a buck who has never bred your does, I let the buyer do the DNA. I do not offer to do it for them either.
It won't effect me in the future one way or the other, so why should I do the extra expense. I only do it for bucks I use on my does. 

I have found through the years and find out later, some buyers who paid for registered animals, never had registered them, I do not understand why someone would do that. So bizarre.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Gee, I kind of like the idea except that it would now cost just as much to breed my own boys as it would to pay for a driveway breeding somewhere else. Some years I like to breed my Alpine/Nubian cross boys to my crossbred girls so we can stay as close to half-and-half as possible. I wonder if they'll still allow bucks to be registered experimental? 

If this were implemented now it would be an expensive year for me--I'm keeping two of my crossbred boys for breeding this winter. I doubt I could afford to breed my own goats with that extra cost tacked on! It definitely discourages experimenting with crosses as I've been doing.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You know none of this affects any buck born before 2020. No one has to test bucks alive now or born next year or even the next.
We all have time to plan ahead.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I have no problem proving my bucks are who I say they are, and I would like to know a buck I buy is who they say he is. I say go for it. When I was raising horses several years ago we had to DNA the stallions, probably by now it's the mares also.

I think the does should be DNA'd also.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I know it won't eliminate cheaters, because "bad guys" also find a way to commit a crime no matter what it is, but I think it will help. I support it, and bought a buck this spring that, due to very suspicious circumstances, I have a fear does not have the pedigree of the buck I though I was buying. Or even honest mistakes, where a breeder gets kids mixed up. A well known Alpine breeder had the latter happen to him this year-bought a buck thinking it was an outcross to his herd, and DNA typed it to find out that the sire was not who it was supposed to be, and that it's actually very closely related to his herd. I don't think $30 extra is worth talking about, though I am concerned with the fact that the ADGA is the only one who ever see the actual marker results, and will not release them to breeders. I have to wonder what that's about...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

UC Davis is using the results to map the entire genome of goats from what I understand. This will allow them to start finding the genes that cause birth defects and stuff like parrot mouth or multiple teats.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

goathiker said:


> You know none of this affects any buck born before 2020. No one has to test bucks alive now or born next year or even the next.
> We all have time to plan ahead.


Yeah, I'm aware of that. I was just saying that it would put a damper on the kind of experimentation I'm doing now, and it would force me to keep my bucks longer. As is, I've really enjoyed being able to breed some of my nicer boys their first year and then wethering them for packgoats afterwards. I'm thrilled that our Hucklberry Finn's blood runs in our herd through his daughter because he was one of those goats that was way too nice to wether, but he was also way too nice to keep as a buck. He's turning out to be a phenomenal packgoat.

So anyway, while I do really like the idea of having all our goats DNA tested, I wish it didn't add more expense to registration. Are testing results really not going to be made available? That would seem to defeat the purpose.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The only test they have for parentage is a simple yes or no, I would think that would be obvious when they register the buck in question. They retain rights so they can compare to register his male offspring. 
UC Davis retains rights to use the plate for their genome project. 
Actually, the wording is just about who owns the rights to tested materials and such. There's nothing to say you won't get a report of some kind.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

I sure hope there will be a way to look at the markers ourselves! I don't have registered stock in the first place, but if I did a genetic test, I would want to see the data. They can own the rights and still send you a copy, I'm sure... right? I love that UC Davis is working on goat genomes. I've been hoping someone would start mapping it.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Actually, the wording is just about who owns the rights to tested materials and such. There's nothing to say you won't get a report of some kind.


You currently _don't_ get a report of any kind-only a parentage yes or no.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I purchased a 5 mo old who was not DNA'd. As the new owner I assumed that responsibility.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

All right, I had to step back for a bit and rethink how to explain this. 
You want a report? Right now it would read...
We have identified 14 common genes. That means that buck kid should belong to that buck. 
If there are too many sires with those 14 genes we do look for up to 64 for matching. 
We don't know what these genes do nor can we tell you what breed or color your goat is. 
We hope to serve you better several years from now when the DNA has actually been mapped.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I've seen people on here complaining over and and over about the lack of research on goats. Well, guess what, we're all collectively footing the bill for it... Including the ABGA breeders, whether they know it or not.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I hated the idea at first too but really it's not that bad. My biggest issue was I have a lot of buyers who like the idea of registered stock but never do anything with the papers so I didn't like having to pay the $30 for a animal that wouldn't even need it. Also not all my bucks sell. I give them till 3 months to sell then they get a band and shipped. I don't have pens for a bunch of bucks so again $30 for nothing. But it's actually been pretty easy. I only DNA the boys that get a deposit on them and I know will be registered and the others just get a application. No one has complained about this way yet. 
No I do not like the added money, I mean seriously who here raises goats and lives off the income? That is pretty few and far between. I don't know about anyone else here but really they don't even pay for my time as it is so any extra fee is that much less that I have for my very little money I do make.
Now there is RUMORS that they will eventually want DNA on does as well. That I have a issue with! I really hope it doesn't ever come down to that but probably will. I run about 70 does give or take that's a lot of money at $33 a head on top of the registration. There is no way I could foot that bill all at once and honestly would probably take me more then a few years to do so. Also I cull very heavy. I set standards and if they don't meet those standards I don't sell to another person for extra money they go to the sale yard. So that doe that I payed, let's say $16 to register and then $33 to DNA test goes for $150 at the sale that's only about $100 for her plus the 10% to sell her. It will break me and I see it also putting a lot of little guys out of business too. All the big and or well known breeders started out as the little guy too and it would be sad for them to go under before they ever really started.
I think the easiest most fair way to do it would be to have the DNA a option. It let's say I DNA everything then do something on the papers that says something like certified and proves that I am selling animals that are 100% proven on what I say they are.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

When I was breeding alpacas, any alpacas registered were DNA tested. They did blood testing and it cost $50. That didn't include having the vet out to draw blood, the postage or the full registration fee. You could get away with sending in the wrong blood with one generation but would get caught when that next generation was registered.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

goathiker said:


> I've seen people on here complaining over and and over about the lack of research on goats. Well, guess what, we're all collectively footing the bill for it... Including the ABGA breeders, whether they know it or not.


It's fine with me! I'm willing to fund research.

Granted, people probably don't register nearly as many and you get a lot more per animal when you sell it, but the Icelandic horse registry has been this way since at least 2000, and maybe much longer. All foals registered have to be DNA'd first.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Do know, you do not need to DNA, if a buck is not going to be used for your own breeding purposes. I let the buyer deal with that.

All are asking if we get the results of genetic markers, the answer is yes we do. The DNA is not a blood test, it is hair follicle samples.

I won't like it if the doe's have to be tested, because I have a few as well. It will cost a lot.

We have only 1 or a few bucks, that is easy.
Not easy if we have to do have multiple Doe's.
It has been kicked around on the issue, I hope they do not make us do it.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I think, in looking all of this over, I will definitely go ahead and test all my bucks that I use starting now. When offered for sale, I will offer testing before leaving the farm, with the expense to be paid by the buyer. Sound fair, good, thoughts?


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## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

It certainly seems like something that could benefit each breed individually. Just out of curiosity what happens if you buy a buck from a breeder, then go to DNA test it and find out it isn't who it is supposed to be? What happens? I'm assuming the papers are revoked, is it between the buyer and the breeder? Does ADGA step in? Do they notify you as the owner or just reject the registration? Has anyone with ABGA experienced this?


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Great questions! I don't want to have the problems you mentioned Arbor Goats. --- Would love to hear.......


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

ArborGoats said:


> It certainly seems like something that could benefit each breed individually. Just out of curiosity what happens if you buy a buck from a breeder, then go to DNA test it and find out it isn't who it is supposed to be? What happens? I'm assuming the papers are revoked, is it between the buyer and the breeder? Does ADGA step in? Do they notify you as the owner or just reject the registration? Has anyone with ABGA experienced this?


The association, when you do the DNA will send you the results with a note stating "Qualifies as an offspring of "Sire such and such".
Now, if they do not, it will be noted there instead of qualifies. I have never had a disqualified goat so I do not know what happens. Here is a discussion about it that may help. 
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/abga-dnaing-question.183493/


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## GF3 Boer Goats (Sep 25, 2017)

I know this is an old thread, but they know require ABGA bucks to be DNA tested. I believe they just want more money out of you, as all the sires of my bucks are DNA tested, but they have to be DNA tested themselves... I think it's really dumb


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Honestly, I think it's a good thing. Make sure those kids belong to those bucks. I didn't like it in the beginning, but I am okay with it now that we've done it a few times.
You can still register buck kids without DNA testing them. However, if you use them for breeding, or someone else buys them for breeding, then before their kids can be registered they need to be DNA tested.
My kids had 2 buck kids they showed this past summer and I had no issues getting them registered. We sold them and told buyers they were not DNA tested and would need to have that done. Sometimes we sell to people who don't register or care about papers, so that's why I won't sell them as DNA tested. I will however DNA test them if buyer wants - at buyers expense. It's a simple test and I don't mind the paperwork and dropping the sample in the mail for them.

IMO the biggest thing that bothers me now is the more I hear about people registering known fullbloods as percentages just to get an edge in the show ring  I wish there was a reasonable way to address this issue. But then there are lots of fullbloods that were IBGA registered and with ABGA's '1 year limit' on getting them transferred into ABGA, there are now a lot of fullbloods that missed out on getting ABGA papers. I guess nothing will ever be fair lol. But at least I know what we do is legit no matter what


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

So.....since my first posting, I tested my sr. buck - and the paperwork reads "Such n such qualifies as an offspring of xxxxx sire, not taking into account the doe". I've decided to of course test all my keeper bucks and leave the testing as an option to the buyer. I only sell a couple of worthy bucklings, and the test itself isn't too pricey for my keepers. It's nice to have another piece of knowledge that adds to the quality of the herd without someone who doesn't know me having to take my word for it. Plus, it's so easy to pull hair - I send it in along with my G6S testing if i have to do both.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well o don’t know if I’m totally sold on liking this BUT it’s not as bad as I thought it would be. I was picturing people not buying bucklings till they have been DNA tested and having to fork over a bunch of money every year but it hasn’t been bad! I just explain the new rule as I had over the bucklings App and they thank me and get it done. 
I also did end up buying a buck and sent in his hair and got him registered and then months later ABGA contacted me and said his grand sire was wrong. That was a bit of a pain in the butt since I was trying to sell kids and had to explain that it was wrong lol but after waiting 3 months it was all straightened out


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## GF3 Boer Goats (Sep 25, 2017)

HoosierShadow said:


> Honestly, I think it's a good thing. Make sure those kids belong to those bucks. I didn't like it in the beginning, but I am okay with it now that we've done it a few times.
> You can still register buck kids without DNA testing them. However, if you use them for breeding, or someone else buys them for breeding, then before their kids can be registered they need to be DNA tested.
> My kids had 2 buck kids they showed this past summer and I had no issues getting them registered. We sold them and told buyers they were not DNA tested and would need to have that done. Sometimes we sell to people who don't register or care about papers, so that's why I won't sell them as DNA tested. I will however DNA test them if buyer wants - at buyers expense. It's a simple test and I don't mind the paperwork and dropping the sample in the mail for them.
> 
> IMO the biggest thing that bothers me now is the more I hear about people registering known fullbloods as percentages just to get an edge in the show ring  I wish there was a reasonable way to address this issue. But then there are lots of fullbloods that were IBGA registered and with ABGA's '1 year limit' on getting them transferred into ABGA, there are now a lot of fullbloods that missed out on getting ABGA papers. I guess nothing will ever be fair lol. But at least I know what we do is legit no matter what


The issue with us is that we bought a buck that has NOT been DNA tested, but his sire, grand-sire, great grand-sire and great great grand-sire (on both sides) were tested and he was linebred. He is a directed descendant from EGGS Boer Goat stock. It's just frusterating to do this. But what must be done will be done.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Sounds like you have a great plan  We only DNA test bucks we are using for breeding. We have a small place, and raise a small herd, so we only use 1 buck. We usually get a young buck in the spring, my son shows it, then we use it for breeding and sell it, so we tend to DNA test yearly. However, my son wants to keep the buck we bought him last summer so he can show/breed to him again next summer/fall. We're currently waiting on his 2nd crop of kids. 
We have 2 spring does we'll breed next summer, so we'll have to find a boyfriend for them, but instead of buying a buck and worrying about DNA testing (just for 2 does) we may see about AI'ing them or most likely sending them to a buck.


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