# bottlebaby with weak front legs



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

I have a bottle baby that is 2weeks old today. At his last feeding a few minutes ago, he is going down on his knees and having trouble getting up. Although once I help him, he can stand. So I am thinking vitamin E and Selenium but maybe it is another issue? He is eating well and appears fine otherwise. Of course I can't find my vit.E gel but I have power punch that has both to get him through he night. I also have B complex if you think a shot of that might help? I thought weak leg were mostly at birth. s it normal for him to be having this issue at 2 weeks?


----------



## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Selenium deficiency can show up anytime. I'd get a shot of bo-se from a local vet. They only charge maybe $10 for a shot. The shot is much more affective than the gel.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

weak as in cant stand back up onhis own weak or legs bent and hard for him to work them??? any swelling on the joints...heat or pain? how does his belly button look?


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

Weak as in can't stand up with his front legs. The first post was at 8pm or so. My husband was in town so he picked up the gel because I could get it faster than waiting until today to get Bo-se. He ate good this am, I just fed him. I didn't check his belly button. But I will check it and his joints. Back legs seem to be ok and overall he seems ok just can't go. I gave him the 2ml of gel. Should he get more? Brother is doing fine with no problems. Should I give it to him also? He doesn't seem to be in any pain.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

it wont hurt to give his brother some...2 ml sounds right

hows his temp? hows his poop? Im asking lots of questions because A few things are coming to mind...and to know whats going on...we need a bit more info : ) 

Joint ill
FKS
and selenium Def. 

you will see swollen joints with joint ill...sometimes,but not always, the naval will be infected, 

FKS will start with weak legs, belley will become sloshy as the milk is not digested and baby gets weaker as time goes on 

Selenium def. usually shows up at birth with weak bent legs..not that is cant show up later, just less likely...and its more of a stiff dragging with the legs then weakness...


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

Ok. Belly button is completely healed up. Just a dried bit of the cod left. No sign of infection.

He had yellow poop on his but when I went in so it would appear he is able to poop. 

Didn't know exactly how to check for a slouchy belly but it was firm and not making any noise before I fed him.

Stupid thermometer keeps turning off so I guess the battery is low but he has a warm toasty mouth and is alert and bright eyed. Moves around with his back legs and his knees and is able to kind of go. 


Is eating good still and he will try to eat hay so I put some in front of him so maybe he will be happy and quit trying to move around.


Gave brother 2ml although he is still doing fine and being his usual pesty self, lol.

Question about the VitE/SEL gel. It says 2ml for newborn and 4ml for adult. But it has notches for 5ml. So I took the end off and drew up with a 3ml syringe. Problem is, it looks like it has little balls in it that I believe to be too big to get in the syringe. So are those balls possibly what he needs and all he is getting is the gel part? What is a better way to dose this?


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Ok. Belly button is completely healed up. Just a dried bit of the cod left. No sign of infection.


Good news!! Did you notice any swelling on joints? any heat??



> He had yellow poop on his but when I went in so it would appear he is able to poop.


Yellow poop is not uncommon even at two weeks old but usualy start seeing it change to brown..was it berries? singles or stuck together? or mooshy?



> Didn't know exactly how to check for a slouchy belly but it was firm and not making any noise before I fed him.


a sick tummy will be poochy and feel like a water balloon...



> Stupid thermometer keeps turning off so I guess the battery is low but he has a warm toasty mouth and is alert and bright eyed. Moves around with his back legs and his knees and is able to kind of go.


Ugh..hate when that happens...but a toasty mouth is a good sign...try to get his temp when you can replace the battery, just to be sure



> Is eating good still and he will try to eat hay so I put some in front of him so maybe he will be happy and quit trying to move around.


how much is he being fed and what are you feeding him? about how much does he weigh...

I would make him a brace for his front legs so he can use them...pad his leg well to prevent sores... pipe insulation wraps that are like a pool noodle might work, cut length wise and sandwhich his legs..then wrap with vet wrap to hold on..Remove the brace a few times a day and massage his leg and excersise it..



> So I took the end off and drew up with a 3ml syringe. Problem is, it looks like it has little balls in it that I believe to be too big to get in the syringe. So are those balls possibly what he needs and all he is getting is the gel part? What is a better way to dose this?


I just put a pea size ( about the 2 ml mark) on my finger and dose it that way..it should be well mixed in the tube...


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

Poop is not runny at all but not really berries. Although think it is getting there. He is getting whole milk from a 20ml mountain dew bottle with a Pritchett nipple. He and his brother can finish this at 2feedings a day and get close to finishing at the other 2. He is fed 4 times a day. He has been nibbling hay also although I don't know if he really eats any yet.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok..whole cows milk is fine....But Im not understanding how much milk he is getting lol...20 Ml daily? or per bottle? andis that ML or Oz?? just to be clear :greengrin:

How much does he weigh? did you check his joints for swelling?

at two weeks he will nibble and taste hay but not eat much..but its good to offer it : )


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

Ok, you got me. It is a 20 OZ. soda bottle, not ml. I would say he is getting 35-40 oz. a day at just over 2 weeks. He is a boer. His joints look to be ok. Can't feel anything out of the ordinary and they are not hot. How long before the gel stuff starts to work for him? Is one dose all he needed or should I give him more if he doesn't improve?


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Wow..thats quite a bit of milk...how.much does he weigh?...if this is selenium deficiency you should begin to see improvment pretty soon..dose him monthly....


----------



## Lily's Mom (Jun 8, 2012)

I have had that happen when they were low on BoSe prenatally. The naturalist told me to give them 4ccs of Cod Liver Oil 2 times a day. It took about 3 days but it has always worked. I have had to do it 2 or 3 times now. We also did massage and stretching to stimulate the muscles. 
One little girl was born from way back in mom's uterus and her two brothers were wedged in between her legs. The vet had to come and help with two of them. She could not walk at all when she was born. It took five days for her but she was a spitfire when she got going.


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

Hmm... So since I have already given him the Vit E/Sel. gel, can I also give him the cod liver oil? Would that help? Or should I just wait and see how things go? I am terrible at waiting. I always feel like whatever it is I give them be it a shot, gel, whatever medicine, it should kick in right then, lol.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you can give cod liver oil..you can also gie an extra Vit e gel cap..just poke a whole on th end and squeeze into his mouth.I know waiting is hard...Im not convinced its Selenium...IT MAY BE lol..Im just not seeing it..????..

Hes drinking enough milk for a 20-25# goat...I would try to cut his bottles down to size and see if that does not make a difference..

Weigh him and multiply that by 16 to get his weight in oz..then multiply that by 12% to see how much per day he needs...divide that into 3 bottles a day....THEN after each bottle..feel his tummy...you want a flat firm tummy...not too poochy and not sunken in.....adjust by 1/4 oz a day at a time until you have that nice healthy tummy..


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

Ok, I'll bring him in the house tomorrow when I get off work and weigh him on the people scale. It will give me a ballpark weight but it is an "old fashioned" scale with the dial. No digital or half pound reading. I think the lines on it are for 2 pounds each, lol. Could too much milk be causing him this problem?


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

A good estimate on his weight will help at least... 

My gut is saying yes, it can be causeing the weakness..but its odd because too much milk will sit and become toxic in the tummy causing other issues usually, like refusing to eat, runny poo..lethargic..and weakness..I maybe off ..way off here lol...but at any rate..its worth a try...I'm going to do some reading and see what I can find out...


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I might have missed this somewhere but are his knees swollen? Boer babies that grow really fast can get swollen knees so he may just not want to stand on them.
The milk doesn't sound too high to me though.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

And was his mom tested for CAE?


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Boer babies that grow really fast can get swollen knees so he may just not want to stand on them.


She said no swelling...all looks and feel normal...Cae is a possibilty...

I have found nothing to suggest too much milk can cause this kind of weakness with out other symptoms... I dont know why my gut is screaming about it lol... But like I said, sure wouldnt hurt to try decreasing milk and see..


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Another thing I would try is giving him some copper, I know the deficiency usually attacks the spinal cord weakening and eventually paralyzing the hind end first, working it's way up, but you never know. 
Neurological CAE would seem more likely though.


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

Mom has not been tested for CAE by myself but her previous owners tested her neg. 2 years ago. I don't know if I mentioned it but the day before he started having this problem, I took him and his brother outside of the barn to play a bit in the sunshine. He was able to walk around just fine at that time. Could he have eaten something? Would CAE strike him all at once like that?


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

There is nothing that I can think of that he could have eaten to cause this ..Copper sure wont hurt...

Did moms previous owner show you proof of her cae statis? retesting mom will give you answers on this


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

Ok, quick update

I took the scale out and it looks like he weighs in around 8-10lbs., brother at 15. He still eats good and is lively, no other symptoms. He can motor around a bit on his knees and get where he wants to go. His knees seem to work fine. It seems like it is more of a shoulder issue. I can stand him up and he just doesn't seem to have any support from his shoulders. So my question is, can a goat dislocate his shoulders? Could mom have stepped on him and caused this to happen? He doesn't seem to be in any pain and brother is not having any issues and they have had all the same stuff from the start. Back legs still seem to be able to push himself around and when he does, legs will go all the way back from the shoulders. Tried to post pics but I can't seem to get them to load. I cut feeding to 3 times a day and he and brother drank a close to half gallon today in those 3 feedings.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

ok so go with the upper number of 10# x 16 = 160 x 12%=19.2 oz a day..divided into 3 bottles = 6.4 or 6 1/2 oz a bottle...

brother should be at 28.8 oz, so 9.6 oz per bottle if fed 3 times a day...

this is a starting point..adjust as their tummy suggest..


the leg thing you discribe sound like a weakness in the muscle...I have seen this before..like the front shoulders butterfly out...Let me go read some notes...


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Well Im back to selenium def. LOL...did you give him cod liver oil or the extra E? .I would also do as Little bits suggested and add copper as well...Im still reading, I know I came across a case of the front legs butterlying out like that...right now everythingpoints back to selenium but just in case I will keep reading...


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

I thought I had cod liver but it was caster oil so no. I decided to try getting the little micro bead things in the gel and sprinkled them with copper and gave that to him just now. I cut back a little on his bottle which they did not like, lol. I have some vit E in a bottle that was used for soap. Don't know if that would be ok to give him. I am hoping that those little beads that didn't suck up in the syringe the first time I gave him some is what he needed. Thinking that maybe the red gel is just a vehicle to give them the beads and he just got the gel. He is as lively as ever. He does kind of look like bat wings on the front. I stand him up and support him to feed so maybe his legs will get used to being like that but he is moving them all over in order to go so he is getting them exercised. I was up for 30 hours yesterday so he got pretty much the bare minimum as I usually hit the wall at the 30 hour mark and simply can't function at the point. But he is doing the same. I will run into Walmart later and look for cod liver oil and vit e caps.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Don't use the vitamin E from a bottle. That isn't made to be ingested.


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

Ok, I was afraid of that. That's why I haven't yet.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You are doing good with.him..sometimes its all guess work when so much can be the problem..I agree about the.vit e ....


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

So here's another update on Batman. Yes, that's what I have been calling him and it fits since he is a solid black buckling. He still hasn't been able to stand up but he still moves all his legs and gets very excited when he see me. No other health issues seen. He is still eating good and lively. I did find cod liver oil in capsules like the vit. e so I have been giving him those squirted in his mouth with each feeding. I do try to stand him every time I feed him but I am noticing one of his back legs is now turning under where he has been pushing himself and so I have to try and make him stand on the hoof rather than the top of his foot, if that makes since. I am beginning to think that maybe he took a shot to the head from the adjoining pen and he possibly lost that part of his brain that controls balance and motor skills? Because that seems to be his only issue is controlling his legs so he can walk. Poor baby, he sure wants to get up. Jumps when I try to make him stand up like he can just take off but of course he can't. So I will just continue to feed him and give him his capsule. Maybe he will keep growing, maybe he will surprise me and learn how to walk again. I don't know. But for now, that's all I can think to do for him. I'm guessing a vet would just tell me to put him down. His twin on the other hand is growing by leaps and bounds and does com in the creep pen to snuggle him.


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Can you make splints for his legs, to help strengthen them?


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

I guess I could try. But I'm afraid he will fall trying to use them. I have been thinking of some how trying to put something around him and hang him where his feet could can touch so maybe he will try to support himself and get used to his weight on them again. I keep thinking maybe cutting a sweatshirt sleeve off and putting it around his belly and then put like a dog harness on him and suspend him from the hay feeder. He is in a pen with no adult goats. It has a creep feed door so the babies can come in and eat grain so he wouldn't get knocked around hanging from the hay feeder. But that might hurt his belly too so I just don't know.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I think I would try braces too...sure wont hurt to try...Also I just suggested this to another...I would massage his legs and spine with Frankincense and/or Helichyrsum ess. oil both have restorative properties...1-2 drops in a carrier oil like sweet almond, avocado oil or even olive pil..


----------



## Stacie1205 (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm going to try braces on the front made out of a water noodle and duck tape. I took one out without tape and put it on one of the front legs and he balanced for a few seconds until it popped off. So I am going to try duck taping it so it stays one. I guess we shall see. I have never heard of those oils. Where would I find them? ( I mean the essential ones, I have the almond oil.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You can get the ess. Oils at most healthfood stores..they are not top quality but ok for topical application....I use DoTerra which is therapeutic grade....it should only take a drop or two


----------



## Abra (Aug 11, 2012)

happybleats said:


> weak as in cant stand back up onhis own weak or legs bent and hard for him to work them??? any swelling on the joints...heat or pain? how does his belly button look?


Can you elaborate??? What does the belly button have to do with front legs not working??? I have a kid who is having issues and could use advice!!!!!


----------



## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

If the kid has a fever, is acting off and the belly button is swollen, has pus, smells bad or looks infected, that is navel ill. If it isn't caught early and treated, it can go into the joints and turn into joint ill. Both are difficult to cure, joint ill is really hard, a lot of goats die if they have joint ill.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

while Navel ill doesn't always present an outward infected navel, swollen joint is always present..can be one joint or all. Temp is usually high. Treatment needs to be aggressive, ten days of a strong antibiotic. Baytril is best, Biomycin ( la 200), Nuflor etc. Banamine a few days to relieve pain and swelling. Probiotics will be needed 3-4 hours after antibiotic. B complex to support the system.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All very good advice.


----------

