# A lot of questions



## Daniele (Jul 19, 2020)

Background. I am single mom of 3 starting a micro city farm. I am hoping to get Nigerian Dwarfs. Three is what I am hoping for. I want them mainly for milk. I am 1-2 years out on my Micro farm but I am setting up my plan now. I would like to maybe sell a few extras and home made goods too. Have the property partly pay for itself. There are two city lots I want to buy that have been forsale for 10 years If I can I want to buy one if not both of them them mainly for the goats. So I could have males and my ladies.

Here are the questions:
1 how much space do they really need as minimum over over night set up?
Is on ND per person enough for a family? 
Where can if find out about feeding fodder and the amounts required?
Would it be cheaper to get recused or kids?

I have a millon questions but I do not want to overwelm yall so if you have experince with rasing this breed and want to offer any imput or advice feel free


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Wecome to TGS! There are some goatees on this site that could answer all those questions. I cant. I have boers, kiko crosses& fainters. Good luck on your farm. Sounds like a great idea!


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## Daniele (Jul 19, 2020)

Moers kiko boars said:


> Wecome to TGS! There are some goatees on this site that could answer all those questions. I cant. I have boers, kiko crosses& fainters. Good luck on your farm. Sounds like a great idea!


thank you so much even if I do not get all the questions answer I will be at least in the right direction with my research


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

If you want goats for milk, especially ND, you do need to get and purchase the best milking lines you can find. Research ADGA and they will talk about what is good in the breed, milk production, etc.  ND poorly bred result in tiny tic tac size teats that you will find almost impossible to milk. Also, please purchase CAE/Johnes negative goats - they are subject to horrible, short lives if affected. Rescue goats, while a noble cause, will suck the $$ out of you in no time with rehab for a variety or treatable or non treatable diseases. In order to produce milk, a dairy goat need quality high calcium/protein feed, usually alfalfa and an 18-20% dairy goat ration, with high quality loose minerals. A lot goes into making that sweet, creamy milk, so think input = output. You cannot cheap out on a dairy goats diet and expect good quality, good production.
If you are breeding, bucks need to be kept separate from does until you are ready to breed, in their own pen with shelter with a buddy. Otherwise you will have them trying to breed kids too young to be bred, or risking the pregnancy of a heavily pregnant doe. There are some great websites with more info: Tennessee meat goats, Fiasco Farm, ADGA, etc. Lots of research to make your new venture easier.


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## Daniele (Jul 19, 2020)

goatblessings said:


> If you want goats for milk, especially ND, you do need to get and purchase the best milking lines you can find. Research ADGA and they will talk about what is good in the breed, milk production, etc. ND poorly bred result in tiny tic tac size teats that you will find almost impossible to milk. Also, please purchase CAE/Johnes negative goats - they are subject to horrible, short lives if affected. Rescue goats, while a noble cause, will suck the $$ out of you in no time with rehab for a variety or treatable or non treatable diseases. In order to produce milk, a dairy goat need quality high calcium/protein feed, usually alfalfa and an 18-20% dairy goat ration, with high quality loose minerals. A lot goes into making that sweet, creamy milk, so think input = output. You cannot cheap out on a dairy goats diet and expect good quality, good production.
> If you are breeding, bucks need to be kept separate from does until you are ready to breed, in their own pen with shelter with a buddy. Otherwise you will have them trying to breed kids too young to be bred, or risking the pregnancy of a heavily pregnant doe. There are some great websites with more info: Tennessee meat goats, Fiasco Farm, ADGA, etc. Lots of research to make your new venture easier.


Thank you so much So much new info to research here. I promise I will be researching for at least a year before I even start looking into buying. maybe longer. I do know who my vet will be though and we have several good farm vets around here thankfully.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

www.thegivinggoat.com and Weed Em and Reap some good info there too!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Weed Em and Reap


Ehhh... Maybe her first videos. They are good but the newer ones, she gives the very minimum amount of info, probably because people that watch her vids don't have any animals.

The book called "a story guide to raising dairy goats" is awesome!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> Ehhh... Maybe her first videos. They are good but the newer ones, she gives the very minimum amount of info, probably because people that watch her vids don't have any animals.
> 
> The book called "a story guide to raising dairy goats" is awesome!


For newbies, her early videos are great for shelter and beginner care.

Her actual goat care knowledge I am disappointed in - did you see the recent ones? "Fixing our goats deformed legs."I wanted to tell her the real problem!!


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Daniele said:


> Background. I am single mom of 3 starting a micro city farm. I am hoping to get Nigerian Dwarfs. Three is what I am hoping for. I want them mainly for milk. I am 1-2 years out on my Micro farm but I am setting up my plan now. I would like to maybe sell a few extras and home made goods too. Have the property partly pay for itself. There are two city lots I want to buy that have been forsale for 10 years If I can I want to buy one if not both of them them mainly for the goats. So I could have males and my ladies.
> 
> Here are the questions:
> 1 how much space do they really need as minimum over over night set up?
> ...


Make sure the city zoning will allow you to even have livestock before you buy.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> Ehhh... Maybe her first videos. They are good but the newer ones, she gives the very minimum amount of info, probably because people that watch her vids don't have any animals.
> 
> The book called "a story guide to raising dairy goats" is awesome!


Yea i am a nope on danelle too.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Sfgwife said:


> Yea i am a nope on danelle too.


 there aren't enough good goat youtubers.


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## Ashlynn (Oct 1, 2017)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> aren't enough good goat youtubers. They mostly know nothing! Spreading bad info.


Blue Cactus Dairy Goats is a good YouTuber


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All very good advice given.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Ashlynn said:


> Blue Cactus Dairy Goats is a good YouTuber


I don't know, I'm not a fan. But that may just be me because I do expect a lot of these goat owners.

She only ever uses injectable ivermectin -even when her goats don't need deworming - she sold a buck to Weed Em and Reap who was clearly copper deficient. This is not a rant session, LOL! But I think yes she does have some good info, it's just very straightforward and conventional!

I like ART and BRI a lot - though, that's probably because I've mentored Bri quite a bit!! 

All in all, just go to the thrifty homesteader blog for top-notch goat info!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I dont always agree with thrifty homesteader either lol. I dont think we will agree 100% all the time. Its important to research..pick a subject and see what everyone is doing about it..cross reference, talk to mentors and your vet, then make a decision based on all you have learned. Be willing to change your mind if new info arises. Keep learning. Know that vets dont always have current or accurate information. We need to know ourselves so our goats are well cared for. I applaud you for learning a head of time.
I have a few files of information on my web site you're welcome to gleen through as well 
Happybleatsdairygoats.weebly.com


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## Ashlynn (Oct 1, 2017)

Yep it’s good to research through multiple sources and compare them. Everybody has something different to say it seems especially with goats. Take everything with a grain of salt and develop your own version using the compiled information.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

happybleats said:


> I dont always agree with thrifty homesteader either lol. I dont think we will agree 100% all the time. Its important to research..pick a subject and see what everyone is doing about it..cross reference, talk to mentors and your vet, then make a decision based on all you have learned. Be willing to change your mind if new info arises. Keep learning. Know that vets dont always have current or accurate information. We need to know ourselves so our goats are well cared for. I applaud you for learning a head of time.


Yes, nobody is 100% correct on anything!! Even Deborah does not know everything, I've disagreed with her on quite a bit. But where would I rather send newbies? To her. I'd rather that than some others.

But to be honest, I'll always just send newbies here!! Hugs to all!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes..definitely no perfect place. There are many things we each do different, not always wrong..just different. I cut my goat learning teeth off Goat-link and Tennessee meat goats..learned alot of good info. But still both offer different opinions on subjects that I don't necessarily buy into any more. And yes..TGS is great since we can do discussions. Plus everyone is polite and non judgemental. Always loved that about this family!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

happybleats said:


> Yes..definitely no perfect place. There are many things we each do different, not always wrong..just different. I cut my goat learning teeth off Goat-link and Tennessee meat goats..learned alot of good info. But still both offer different opinions on subjects that I don't necessarily buy into any more. And yes..TGS is great since we can do discussions. Plus everyone is polite and non judgemental. Always loved that about this family!


As a mentor for some, I've tried to absorb so many different opinions and combine them to find middle ground on certain subjects, or to offer different options in situations.

I think no matter what, more knowledge is always better. I'll never tell someone not to watch DaNelle or not to read a certain book, we need to hear other opinions to form our own- any info is info that we can take in and appreciate!!

Still so disappointed with what's going on with DaNelle's goats right now. Wish I could help


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I totally agree.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Still so disappointed with what's going on with DaNelle's goats right now.


Ughh... I know. What bothers me the most is the one with the leg problem. If it were my herd, id stop breeding that line IMMEDIATELY! That poor old lady is in pain, but she keeps on breeding that line because "she has star milkers in the show ring" 
That's what I call irresponsible breeding, but I am in no way perfect either...


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## Daniele (Jul 19, 2020)

happybleats said:


> I dont always agree with thrifty homesteader either lol. I dont think we will agree 100% all the time. Its important to research..pick a subject and see what everyone is doing about it..cross reference, talk to mentors and your vet, then make a decision based on all you have learned. Be willing to change your mind if new info arises. Keep learning. Know that vets dont always have current or accurate information. We need to know ourselves so our goats are well cared for. I applaud you for learning a head of time.
> I have a few files of information on my web site you're welcome to gleen through as well
> Happybleatsdairygoats.weebly.com


thank you so much as soon as my pc is up and running I am going to start a ¨farm" Business plan. not that my little plot can go production level because if I can buy the lots next to me one day it can for sure but it will provide more than enough most of the year for my little family. I am do it as a business plan just because it is the easiest way to organizes it. each aspect the quail the goats and the garden all have so much info it getting harder and harder to keep track but Right n ow I am wetting my feet with goats info reading the forums as much as I have time for because I know that I can only resereach what I know to look up. Everything I can think but of but every post leads me to another thing I didn;t think of. I know researching and raising are two different ball games but i want as much knowledge as I can before I even lay a fence post for there yard


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

May I just say that I am very impressed at how you are handling this. Most people would just jump in, not knowing a thing, but you are being very responsible! I love that you want your animals to be as healthy as they can be! I bet you are an awesome role model for your kids!


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## Daniele (Jul 19, 2020)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> May I just say that I am very impressed at how you are handling this. Most people would just jump in, not knowing a thing, but you are being very responsible! I love that you want your animals to be as healthy as they can be! I bet you are an awesome role model for your kids!


Thank you so much for the complement. I am not going to be ready for a while so I want to make the most of the time I have to wait.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

If you're getting into goats for the milk and you want to make money on it, I strongly recommend getting a full-sized dairy breed and not Nigerian Dwarfs. They're cute but they just don't make much milk. You'd be looking at spending big money to buy into the best milking lines. Inexpensive full-sized goats from mediocre dairy lines still give more milk for a longer lactation cycle than high-producing Nigies. Plus, full-sized goats are generally much easier to milk. 

Best of luck to you!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Damfino said:


> If you're getting into goats for the milk and you want to make money on it, I strongly recommend getting a full-sized dairy breed and not Nigerian Dwarfs. They're cute but they just don't make much milk. You'd be looking at spending big money to buy into the best milking lines. Inexpensive full-sized goats from mediocre dairy lines still give more milk for a longer lactation cycle than high-producing Nigies. Plus, full-sized goats are generally much easier to milk.
> 
> Best of luck to you!


Good points, but management is easiest for the dwarves!!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> Ughh... I know. What bothers me the most is the one with the leg problem. If it were my herd, id stop breeding that line IMMEDIATELY! That poor old lady is in pain, but she keeps on breeding that line because "she has star milkers in the show ring"
> That's what I call irresponsible breeding, but I am in no way perfect either...


her goats have weak pasterns and one can barely walk - and she still thinks it's a zinc deficiency after talking to "many experienced mentors."

That stuff just makes me sick. A ton of people can tell you what weak pasterns are and why.

The second I saw the title "fixing our goats deformed legs." I knew what the problem was.

If @mariarose were here, oh boy, I'd love to hear her thoughts!!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Good points, but management is easiest for the dwarves!!


Not necessarily. I started out with Nigerian Dwarves. Had a herd of about 20. Just because they are smaller, doesn't mean easier. It is individual to the goat. My herd consisted of the extremely easy to manage to extremely unmanageable.

Now with having full size goats, I don't have to own as many to get the amount of milk I want. I previously had to own 6 Nigerian Dwarves to get the same amount of milk from 2 full size. Definitely put more feed into the 6 vs the 2 even with size difference. Trimming toenails for 2 instead of 6. Fecals done for 2 instead of 6. Milking time for 2 instead of 6. Trimming toenails is easier with the full size goats and I used the milkstand on everyone. While some may feel the smaller size is better, I definitely found the larger size works much better for me. Size honestly doesn't mean easier, individual goat personality makes all the difference.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Yeah, I'm with ksalvagno on this one. I don't really think smaller breeds are easier to manage at all. In fact, rather the opposite from what I've experienced. It seems like the smaller they are, the harder they are to fence. The babies are especially good at slipping through teeny tiny holes. They are also more of a target for dogs and predators, and I've found their feet to be so tiny they can be difficult to trim. I've never owned any miniature breeds myself, but I've helped a lot of my friends with theirs and it kind of cured me of ever wanting any of my own. My husband keeps trying to persuade me because they are adorable, but he's not the one who does most of the work! If we had nothing but pets, sure. But I want my girls (and my boys too since I have packgoats) to be able to give more return for the work I put into them!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I would note that I personally have experienced Nigerian dwarf goats to be healthier (easier nutrition) and better keepers than full-sized goats.

However they all have their pros and cons, it depends on what you want!!


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I would note that I personally have experienced Nigerian dwarf goats to be healthier (easier nutrition) and better keepers than full-sized goats.
> 
> However they all have their pros and cons, it depends on what you want!!


eh. You can find easy keepers in full sized goats pretty easily around here. Most good breeder will have that. Simply because they have lots of goats and taking care of them must be easy on the shepard.

My full sized nubian has been here a year.... i have wormed her twice. Once after she got here and once when she kidded. If not in milk she does perfectly fine on pasture, forage, hay, mineral and a bit of alfalfa pellet. In milk (this is her ff and she gifts me a gallon a day) i do have to make sure she gets lots of grain but it is because she puts ALL of her calories into milk makin. her hooves needed trimmed every two to three months til she was in milk and now i do it once a month with everyone else. But hers are not really bad even then.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Damfino said:


> and I've found their feet to be so tiny they can be difficult to trim.


Lol!! This is very true! I laughed a little at this because I was used to trimming boer feet, and when I saw the nigis feet I was like "uhh... what the heck!"

I will say small breeds are cheaper because they need less feed obviously! But I would treat them like any other goat other that feeding!

Nigis are also kind of stubborn... But I mean all goats are stubborn, hence the saying! Honestly, anything with a brain is stubborn!

If you are living in town, I don't recommend Nubians, since they can be pretty noisy! Even my mini Nubians are noisy! Everybody says LaMancha are sweeties! But you would only need 2 because a full-sized breed will make way more milk than a mini, You would probably have too much! But i understand wanting to stick with the minis!

Yeah about Weed em and reap. I have nicely explained to her In the comments that her goats needed supplements, and she replied, saying she would get on top of it, but I doubt she did. 
Everyone thinks that supplements (esp. copper boluses) will be fatal if given closer than 6 months apart, but if your goat is deficient, then she needs it! I don't get the thought process but whatever lol!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> Trimming toenails is easier with the full size goats


I find my bigger goat's hooves are harder than the Nigerians' hooves. The walls are thicker. ND hooves, to me, are definitely easier to trim.
But, I guess, it's what you are used to.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I own both nigies and large breeds..i find they can both be easy keepers and hard keepers. Not so much a breed but genetics or personalities. Nigies do take a bit more forethought on fencing. Babies can be quite tiny and slip through a 4x4 square. We are putting up no climb horse fencing which cost a pretty penny compared to goat wire. Feeders and tables need adjusting. We use a box on our table for nigies to reach better. 
I personally love the hoof being tiny..snip snip I'm dont lol. 
Nigies are hardy goats..but my lamancha are just as hardy. That could be genetics too. Over all..research all the pros and cons. Always buy the best you can afford. Always ask to see proof if testing. Papers don't put milk in the bucket so know how important registration is to you. I have had registered goat give less than unregistered girls. Papers don't guarantee quality. Visit lots of farms with different breeds. Best wishes


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think Nigerians are stinking adorable and have in the past seriously considered raising them. The one thing that stopped me, funny enough was the same reason I want them. They are tiny. That means that I wouldn’t have to worry about animals on the ground getting in and taking off with them but also the air. When I can’t keep hawks, owls and eagles from taking off with my 5 pound cats and chickens I sure wouldn’t be able to stop them from taking off with my kids. Over the years not getting them was more set in stone with all the “cant keep my goat in it pen” posts that seem to mostly star Nigerians lol I am still baffled how those little ones can jump so high but they can. Now don’t get me wrong I think any goat If they really wanted to can escape any fence but those little suckers sure seem to be the most troublesome. 
The good think about Nigerians though is it seems their little buck kids are by far easier to sell for pets then any other breed out there. Which usually means a better profit. For the full sized dairy most are destined to the table which means only market price for them. Of course not always the case but everyone wants tiny pets.
For getting ready, honestly you will not find more info and opinions then on here. Just look at your post so far lol you got quite a few opinions just about a farm link lol. On your free time just grab a cup of coffee and sit down and read people’s posts. It does seem over whelming at times because most of the posts sometimes are emergency posts with health issues but I can’t tell you how many times just reading those saved a life when I was blessed enough to have it happen to one of my goats. Make posts and ask questions. No one on here is going to mind. We all have been new and we all are very supportive and want others to succeed.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice.


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## Daniele (Jul 19, 2020)

happybleats said:


> I own both nigies and large breeds..i find they can both be easy keepers and hard keepers. Not so much a breed but genetics or personalities. Nigies do take a bit more forethought on fencing. Babies can be quite tiny and slip through a 4x4 square. We are putting up no climb horse fencing which cost a pretty penny compared to goat wire. Feeders and tables need adjusting. We use a box on our table for nigies to reach better.
> I personally love the hoof being tiny..snip snip I'm dont lol.
> Nigies are hardy goats..but my lamancha are just as hardy. That could be genetics too. Over all..research all the pros and cons. Always buy the best you can afford. Always ask to see proof if testing. Papers don't put milk in the bucket so know how important registration is to you. I have had registered goat give less than unregistered girls. Papers don't guarantee quality. Visit lots of farms with different breeds. Best wishes


Wow so much info from everyone thanks. NOw My question is how if not papered how can you tell if their teets will be big enough?


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## Daniele (Jul 19, 2020)

Jessica84 said:


> I think Nigerians are stinking adorable and have in the past seriously considered raising them. The one thing that stopped me, funny enough was the same reason I want them. They are tiny. That means that I wouldn't have to worry about animals on the ground getting in and taking off with them but also the air. When I can't keep hawks, owls and eagles from taking off with my 5 pound cats and chickens I sure wouldn't be able to stop them from taking off with my kids. Over the years not getting them was more set in stone with all the "cant keep my goat in it pen" posts that seem to mostly star Nigerians lol I am still baffled how those little ones can jump so high but they can. Now don't get me wrong I think any goat If they really wanted to can escape any fence but those little suckers sure seem to be the most troublesome.
> The good think about Nigerians though is it seems their little buck kids are by far easier to sell for pets then any other breed out there. Which usually means a better profit. For the full sized dairy most are destined to the table which means only market price for them. Of course not always the case but everyone wants tiny pets.
> For getting ready, honestly you will not find more info and opinions then on here. Just look at your post so far lol you got quite a few opinions just about a farm link lol. On your free time just grab a cup of coffee and sit down and read people's posts. It does seem over whelming at times because most of the posts sometimes are emergency posts with health issues but I can't tell you how many times just reading those saved a life when I was blessed enough to have it happen to one of my goats. Make posts and ask questions. No one on here is going to mind. We all have been new and we all are very supportive and want others to succeed.


Thank you so much for kind reply. Yes there are so many oppinons and information. I personally love when people give me them even when it is why I shouldn´t get them. these provide the best information because it gives me a new way to think about it. I am doing ND for the space I have also because my little one can learn how to keep them with me. I have other reasons as well but not going to go over that right now. The size is the biggest draw for me. I am disabled actually if there is ever a time time I need to man handle them a little or they do escape Being able to pick them up if needed that sorta thing is a huge draw. I have never had any issues with preditors with our chickens I used share with a neighbor. And the only dog I have is tiny too. THe fact as you pointed out they are easier to sell is another point. I have enough space for two or three nds and there kids for a short time. If I can´t sell them the table is the next option which I do not want to do but would if I had no other choice. THis is the biggest factor really that made go with a mini.


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## Daniele (Jul 19, 2020)

Damfino said:


> If you're getting into goats for the milk and you want to make money on it, I strongly recommend getting a full-sized dairy breed and not Nigerian Dwarfs. They're cute but they just don't make much milk. You'd be looking at spending big money to buy into the best milking lines. Inexpensive full-sized goats from mediocre dairy lines still give more milk for a longer lactation cycle than high-producing Nigies. Plus, full-sized goats are generally much easier to milk.
> 
> Best of luck to you!


I am sorry I was unclear. I am not looking to profit necessarily so much as If I am ever in a postion of having extra milk or product I would sell goat milk soap or maybe some cheese here and there. Not to profit so much as to make room for more. Now I will be selling quail once I get them and there eggs. I will eventually have my garden up to production level. I will sale the kids as I don´t want over crowding. The two or three we get will be for life as I know when they get older I won´t be breeding them. I am not doing this as a business level operation so much as to lesson feeding cost. The size even with its con list is why I am going with ND. If I can one day buy the two lots next to me I would than look into full size milkers. I have to thank you as you did highlight some points that will be taking into consideration and it is totally possible that I decide two full size goats might be wiser than the minis. though at this point I want them just as much for milk as I do for pets.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Daniele said:


> My question is how if not papered how can you tell if their teets will be big enough?


Papers do not guarantee good teat size or production. For kids, They can help decide based on genetics but you should look to mom and grandma..and bucks mom to see what protential quality you will get.


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## Ashlynn (Oct 1, 2017)

Papers also allow you to sell the goats for more and maybe a better chance of getting good homes.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

If ease of handling is a factor, I'm going to say the Nigies are actually more difficult. They're quite strong for their size and you have to bend way down to grab and hang onto them, which can be difficult if you have back problems or poor balance. Their low center of gravity and short legs actually make them harder to control in my opinion because short goats have the leverage advantage while tall goats give people the leverage advantage. Nigies are not small enough to pick up or carry once they get past about 6 months old so don't count on that method of control.

My neighbor had Nigies for a while and sometimes they would escape and visit my place. They were wild and despite their small stature, physically restraining them was completely out of the question. My neighbor ended up having to sell the entire herd because he couldn't castrate any of the males. They were too small to grab easily, and if someone did manage to grab one it was too strong for anyone to physically hang onto it without a stanchion. My neighbors are cattle ranchers who also kept a large Boer goat herd for years so they are used to restraining large, wild beasts, but the Nigies defeated them.

I have often been called upon in the past to supplement goat milk for people in our area who depended on Nigies for their milk. Seems like the little gals never gave quite enough and their lactation cycles were so short their owners were always needing to find an alternate milk source over the winter months. These experiences have kind of turned me against Nigies as dependable milk suppliers or easy keepers. But they are very cute pets, and I know a lot of folks here on TGS have worked out the management issues and know how to maintain enough milk supply. I just know that for me, if I'm going to go to all the work of milking (and it IS a lot of work), then I want an abundant, reliable source that gives enough year round to supply all my needs. For me that's one full-sized goat in milk at a time. I only milk once/day and I need at least 2 quarts/day year round to keep my husband and I happy. A single full-sized goat easily fulfills this requirement since she'll stay in milk through the winter, which seems to not be the case with a lot of Nigies.

But what works best for you depends completely on what _you_ need and what _you_ prefer. And they sure are cute!


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## Ashlynn (Oct 1, 2017)

My Nigerians have always produced too much for my family, but only my dad drinks the goat milk frequently. The chickens and dogs get all the extra. Nigerians are harder for adults to handle, but easier for kids because of their height. As a kid I could only walk Nigerians. I’m short still though so we kept them lol. If you get a Nigerian with decent teat size, placement, udder attachment, and udder capacity it will be easier to milk them than just any scraggly Nigerian. Also getting their diet right makes a big difference in milk production. You can also stagger breed meaning you always have one fresh doe no matter what time of year. Nigerians can be wild if you put dam-raised ones on a large pasture (like over 2 acres), but you have a smaller space so they will be easier to tame and catch. Bottle raising also makes them tamer. I like to dam raise kids until 2-3 months old then wean them onto a bottle if possible. That way they get milk for another couple of months and if your milking mom you get all the milk to yourself. The production cycle depends on many factors. I know Nigerians who have kept up milk production for 6 months. It all depends on your management and the goat itself. I also like that they are popular so they sell pretty good, but showing them is crazy because you’re competing against so many goats. I think Nigerians are a good choice. Let us know if you have any questions.


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Damfino said:


> If ease of handling is a factor, I'm going to say the Nigies are actually more difficult. They're quite strong for their size and you have to bend way down to grab and hang onto them, which can be difficult if you have back problems or poor balance. Their low center of gravity and short legs actually make them harder to control in my opinion because short goats have the leverage advantage while tall goats give people the leverage advantage. Nigies are not small enough to pick up or carry once they get past about 6 months old so don't count on that method of control.


I understand what you are saying, but I bred both registered Nubians & nigerians and much preferred working with the nigerians. Yes, they are closer to the ground, but you can walk them on a longer lead clipped to their collar and the milking stand helps with bringing them up to your level for routine maintenance. Yes, the Nubians are taller to lead, but when they decide to go the opposite direction it or decide not to go with you, it's not easy to hang on to them or pull them. I preferred the nigerians because they are easier to maneuver if they get ornery. I'm not sure what nigerians you were dealing with, but I could carry some of my full grown nigerians, mostly because they were spoiled! Lol



Damfino said:


> My neighbor had Nigies for a while and sometimes they would escape and visit my place. They were wild and despite their small stature, physically restraining them was completely out of the question. My neighbor ended up having to sell the entire herd because he couldn't castrate any of the males. They were too small to grab easily, and if someone did manage to grab one it was too strong for anyone to physically hang onto it without a stanchion. My neighbors are cattle ranchers who also kept a large Boer goat herd for years so they are used to restraining large, wild beasts, but the Nigies defeated them.


I showed nigerians for quite a few years and knew many, many breeders all over the country. I have never heard this before. It sounds like they weren't handled much and were allowed to become wild. My nigerians were always sweet. Some of it can be genetic, but if you buy purebred nigerians from a reputable breeder you should not have that issue. My nigerians never escaped, unless if it was through the fence as kids, but I had a separate pen for the kids. The only nigerians I had to make friendlier were dam raised without handling and they came around easily. All of my kids were bottle raised and they could not be sweeter. I think the key is daily handling which is easy in a small herd like the one the OP is considering. I think any animal will go wild if kept out in a herd without much human interaction. Also, I did find Nigerian hooves much easier to clip. Firstly because they are much thinner and smaller and secondly because fighting with a nigerian who doesn't want her hooves trimmed was much easier than struggling with a Nubian.



Damfino said:


> I have often been called upon in the past to supplement goat milk for people in our area who depended on Nigies for their milk. Seems like the little gals never gave quite enough and their lactation cycles were so short their owners were always needing to find an alternate milk source over the winter months. These experiences have kind of turned me against Nigies as dependable milk suppliers or easy keepers. But they are very cute pets, and I know a lot of folks here on TGS have worked out the management issues and know how to maintain enough milk supply. I just know that for me, if I'm going to go to all the work of milking (and it IS a lot of work), then I want an abundant, reliable source that gives enough year round to supply all my needs. For me that's one full-sized goat in milk at a time. I only milk once/day and I need at least 2 quarts/day year round to keep my husband and I happy. A single full-sized goat easily fulfills this requirement since she'll stay in milk through the winter, which seems to not be the case with a lot of Nigies.


That is entirely determined by bloodlines and breeding. I've had nigerians who were better milkers, lb for lb than my Nubians. The nigerian lines I worked with stayed in milk for 10 months, 305 days to complete a full milk test. I know of some does who you couldn't dry off. As First fresheners, I expected my does to give no less than 4lbs or half a gallon of milk each day. My best does gave 7lbs+ a day and I know of many others like them around the country. I've even seen some that give a full gallon. I found them to be little powerhouses which is why I eventually sold the Nubians to concentrate on the nigerians. The nigerians had a much better feed to milk ratio and were economically cheaper to keep. I could also have more nigerian does than Nubians for the cost of feed and that meant more kids to sell.

I'm not trying to downplay anything you said and I'm sorry you had those experiences with Nigerians. I just wanted to let the OP know that is not the norm for a good Nigerian Dairy Goat.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Ashlynn said:


> My Nigerians have always produced too much for my family, but only my dad drinks the goat milk frequently. The chickens and dogs get all the extra. Nigerians are harder for adults to handle, but easier for kids because of their height. As a kid I could only walk Nigerians. I'm short still though so we kept them lol. If you get a Nigerian with decent teat size, placement, udder attachment, and udder capacity it will be easier to milk them than just any scraggly Nigerian. Also getting their diet right makes a big difference in milk production. You can also stagger breed meaning you always have one fresh doe no matter what time of year. Nigerians can be wild if you put dam-raised ones on a large pasture (like over 2 acres), but you have a smaller space so they will be easier to tame and catch. Bottle raising also makes them tamer. I like to dam raise kids until 2-3 months old then wean them onto a bottle if possible. That way they get milk for another couple of months and if your milking mom you get all the milk to yourself. The production cycle depends on many factors. I know Nigerians who have kept up milk production for 6 months. It all depends on your management and the goat itself. I also like that they are popular so they sell pretty good, but showing them is crazy because you're competing against so many goats. I think Nigerians are a good choice. Let us know if you have any questions.


Good geavy of my dam raised were any more people friendly we would be covered in goat slob head to toe every time we went up. Our dam raised kids are crazy people creatures.


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## Ashlynn (Oct 1, 2017)

Sfgwife said:


> Good geavy of my dam raised were any more people friendly we would be covered in goat slob head to toe every time we went up. Our dam raised kids are crazy people creatures.


Haha my boys are like that but the bottle kids are like dogs while the dam raised doe kids act like normal goats at our place.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Ashlynn said:


> Haha my boys are like that but the bottle kids are like dogs while the dam raised doe kids act like normal goats at our place.


The ONLY difference in bottle vs dam here is that the bb want to jump on us more. So we have to teach them nope this is not ok.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Yeah, all of my neighbor's goats were completely wild, but he was able to handle the big wild ones. He couldn't handle the little wild ones. They were too low to the ground! I'm sure no one with dairy goats is going to have wild ones, but I only told the story to illustrate the point that small size does not equal ease of handling. I get a sore back just _watching_ the Nigie class at the dairy goat shows!



Morning Star Farm said:


> I've had nigerians who were better milkers, lb for lb than my Nubians. The nigerian lines I worked with stayed in milk for 10 months, 305 days to complete a full milk test. I know of some does who you couldn't dry off. As First fresheners, I expected my does to give no less than 4lbs or half a gallon of milk each day. My best does gave 7lbs+ a day and I know of many others like them around the country. I've even seen some that give a full gallon. I found them to be little powerhouses which is why I eventually sold the Nubians to concentrate on the nigerians. The nigerians had a much better feed to milk ratio and were economically cheaper to keep. I could also have more nigerian does than Nubians for the cost of feed and that meant more kids to sell.
> 
> I'm not trying to downplay anything you said and I'm sorry you had those experiences with Nigerians. I just wanted to let the OP know that is not the norm for a good Nigerian Dairy Goat.


I sure wish I could meet a good Nigerian dairy goat someday! (Besides a few top animals at a show I mean.) Low yield and short lactation may not be the norm for a "good" Nigerian, but it seems to be the norm for every backyard Nigie out there. For comparison, I have grade Alpine/Nubian crosses that consistently place near the bottom of their classes at every show (although we are slowly improving!) and my first fresheners give a gallon/day (if I milk twice/day) and they stay in lactation for 20+ months. (I haven't tried to milk longer than that but I think I easily could if I didn't breed them.) If a low quality full sized breed can still give twice the milk of a high end Nigerian, I think that sort of speaks for itself if you're looking purely at the practical end of things. But a lot of it comes down to what you personally like.


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Damfino said:


> Low yield and short lactation may not be the norm for a "good" Nigerian, but it seems to be the norm for every backyard Nigie out there.


Unfortunately, that is true. A lot of backyard breeders are a little too sidetracked by color and it gives the rest of nigerians a bad reputation with a lot of people. Even now, there are still people with full size dairy goats who consider the nigerians as pets only. When I first joined adga, I was told Native on appearance was not for nigerians because it was "only for dairy goats." Thankfully a lot of that bias is being diffused by the rapid rate at which Nigerians are improving. They have come such a long way in a short time.


Damfino said:


> For comparison, I have grade Alpine/Nubian crosses that consistently place near the bottom of their classes at every show (although we are slowly improving!) and my first fresheners give a gallon/day (if I milk twice/day) and they stay in lactation for 20+ months. (I haven't tried to milk longer than that but I think I easily could if I didn't breed them.) If a low quality full sized breed can still give twice the milk of a high end Nigerian, I think that sort of speaks for itself if you're looking purely at the practical end of things. But a lot of it comes down to what you personally like.


That is true too. There are some really good nigerians who can give almost a gallon as First fresheners. They usually have a matching price tag though, lol. I was trying to get to that level and was slowly but surely getting there when I stopped and said I'm just not paying $2000 for a goat. I might as well have horses. So now I do and I'm really having more fun showing them.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

If your goats start costing more than horses, it's a sign you may be in too deep!

One of the biggest problems with keeping really high-end producers is that they are often higher maintenance than your more average producers. Top milkers are at greater danger of things like mastitis, milk fever, udder injury, etc. if they are not kept in ideal conditions. They must be milked exactly on time since allowing an already huge udder to overfill can cause damage. Also, if you lose a high-end goat it's not just an emotional loss, but a major financial setback as well. I've had a few high producers but I've decided that for my personal management style, middle-of-the road production is easier on me and the goats. But since I do still require a minimum 2 quarts/day per goat on a once-a-day milking routine, full sized breeds work best for my needs. I do like that Nigies tend to be very easy keepers though. Some of them seem to stay fat just looking at food!


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Damfino said:


> If your goats start costing more than horses, it's a sign you may be in too deep!


Definitely! I especially love that I don't have to have the newest, most expensive name brand horse to win, because training has so much to do with it.


Damfino said:


> One of the biggest problems with keeping really high-end producers is that they are often higher maintenance than your more average producers. Top milkers are at greater danger of things like mastitis, milk fever, udder injury, etc. if they are not kept in ideal conditions. They must be milked exactly on time since allowing an already huge udder to overfill can cause damage.


Yep!! And the optimum milk letdown period is still the same so a machine is pretty necessary. Even a patient milker will get fed up with the amount of time it takes to milk a high producer. I had a Nubian, 2 gallon milker as an FF, and it took me 30 minutes to milk her by hand. With a machine, it took 2.5 minutes, and I got even more milk.


Damfino said:


> Also, if you lose a high-end goat it's not just an emotional loss, but a major financial setback as well.


That's another reason I got off the roller coaster of breeding to win. I also didn't keep any of my does more than a year. I would usually sell them after they freshened so I could bring it new stock and keep improving. With a small herd, they were all like pets so it wasn't easy to sell them sometimes.


Damfino said:


> I do like that Nigies tend to be very easy keepers though. Some of them seem to stay fat just looking at food!


I agree 100%!! They can become very round little tubs in no time!

For the OP, the best choice might be to find the middle category, some reasonably priced nigerians who are good milkers. There are quite a few out there. Even if you have 2 or 3 better than average nigerians who give 2 qts per day, that's still 1 gallon-1 &1/2 gallons of milk each day.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol I guess it all depends on how you look at things. I pay the same amount for my bucks as I did my mare. My bucks are a investment and they have over and beyond paid for themselves. My mare, I personally NEED her since I have a cattle ranch but emotions aside she is my tool. If I didn’t need her I honestly wouldn’t have bought her. She costs more to feed and manage then any if the goats and she doesn’t pay for herself in any other way then work.


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Jessica84 said:


> Lol I guess it all depends on how you look at things. I pay the same amount for my bucks as I did my mare. My bucks are a investment and they have over and beyond paid for themselves. My mare, I personally NEED her since I have a cattle ranch but emotions aside she is my tool. If I didn't need her I honestly wouldn't have bought her. She costs more to feed and manage then any if the goats and she doesn't pay for herself in any other way then work.


It sure does. I found it is easier to get the purchase price sooner back from a horse than a goat. My horses are for breeding and it's easier to get them proven because there are more classes they can do. With the goats, I found that big names bring big prices and you don't get those prices even if you have the lines, until you become a big name. It's not easy and I've noticed none of the big farms that I've visited are making much profit from the goats. They all have other jobs to support them. When I visited several of the most successful farms, reality hit in a big way. Up until then I had thought if you get to the top level, the goats bring in more than enough money.
My horses actually cost less to feed and maintain than my goat herd did. They are also much easier because with dairy goats, I was almost always milking in addition to bottle raising, tattooing, and disbudding the kids with shows squeezed in the middle. Training the horses is work, but not as demanding of a schedule and unlike milking, we can take days off.
There are so many new breeders now too, especially of nigerians, that it's getting more and more difficult to get decent prices unless you have a lot of milk, show and appraisal records that set you apart.


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## Iluvlilly! (Apr 6, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Her actual goat care knowledge I am disappointed in - did you see the recent ones? "Fixing our goats deformed legs."I wanted to tell her the real problem!!


What do you think the real problem was? I didn't think her method was right and i think she needs to give selenium or zinc? I could be wrong though..


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Iluvlilly! said:


> What do you think the real problem was? I didn't think her method was right and i think she needs to give selenium or zinc? I could be wrong though..


Selenium.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

goatblessings said:


> ND poorly bred result in tiny tic tac size teats that you will find almost impossible to milk.


I am still laughing about that expression, tic tac sized teats!
I can confirm the poorly bred ND hard to milk doe!
When I started out looking for ND goats to purchase, I went with the Canadian Goat Registry registered breeders, and out of 4 that were listed in my province, only 2 got back to me that they were still breeding and I could be on a waiting list for kids. One of those 2 said I couldn't come look at her goats due to bio security reasons. Both said they had done dairy but weren't doing it at the time. I, the non experienced newbie, didn't know what I was looking at/for and bought what was available, one doeling and 2 bucklings between the two farms. I bought another yearling doe through Facebook that had gone through several owners in a short time, because I wanted 2 does. She is a small Nubian mix. She has been in milk for 14 months now, and now the ND is as well. At this time they give about the same amount of milk, but the ND takes twice as long to milk, as my hands cramp up and I have to work on loosening them up. Her teats did grow from "tic tac" to the length of my index finger since she freshened.
Edited to correct, half the length of my index finger.


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## MuldrowBeeandGoatFarm (Oct 25, 2019)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> May I just say that I am very impressed at how you are handling this. Most people would just jump in, not knowing a thing, but you are being very responsible! I love that you want your animals to be as healthy as they can be! I bet you are an awesome role model for your kids!


Hahahaha, that's exactly what I did! Jumped in feet first!


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Do you have any goat shows in your area? Dairy goat clubs? If so, go to a couple and talk to those who raise ND. They can tell you which lines are good for production, and even mentor you as you start your journey.

I have both, ND and Standards. My farm is 1.3 acres. Nigerians are more easily accepted in a city type of area because they are viewed as pets, even though they are fully functioning livestock. It may be easier for someone in a city or town to at least start with the little ones to get neighbors used to the idea.

Production ND do tend to be more expensive than your average decent standard milker, and standards are easier to find. Going to goat shows or dairy goat clubs to talk to other breeders would be a good way to learn about what would be her best options.


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