# Help *** Little Doe is Down



## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Im having a heck of a time over here with Goats, every days is a learning experience. Who said Farming was easy..

Well to the point:
I have little doe she was a twin in May her brother is 3x her size. she is now down, she will eat and her poop is normal, she just cant move. Her temp was about 100 so it was low. I have given her electrolytes, vit b complex 1.5ML for 2 days now and a shot of straight B12 1.5ML. Also given her some Probios.

What else can do I do for her? I think she is just weak since she doesn't eat much at all. I have locked her in a pen with grain and alfalfa pellets and plenty of clean hay and a some water. She went down on Saturday some time and I found her sunday morning.

Any other suggestions?


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Is she grinding her teeth? What is her position when laying down?
Any sign of bloat?
Has she ever been treated for cocci?


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

She is laying on her side or Ill prop her up to eat. 
what are the signs of Bloat or Cocci?


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

I just googled Bloat , No bloat she is very skinny.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Since the poop is normal would this rule out Cocci?


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

No!!!! I just lost a 3 month old buckling to cocci that had no symptoms at all. 




Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Is there a local livestock vet you can take her to??? A goat down on its side is serious. Prop her up with towels or hay bales.

What is her membrane color/FAMACHA score? (See image)

Her rumen is located high up behind the ribs on HER left side. Is it particularly hard or distended?


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

Is she on pasture? Has she been wormed with anything ever? Any cocci prevention? What is their normal diet?


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

They do not have to have scours with cocci.

My buckling was perfectly normal. Eating playing lounging around with he others. No scours, no temperature, no teeth grinding, nothing. He just laid down one morning out in the sun with the others and didn't get up


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Id say her score is a 3 or 4

yes I wormed her with safeguard when born and then with valbenzen the other day. she is in a pen that is 60x80

normal diet is some grain and alfalfa pellets every few days regular hay, none of my goats eat the grass in the pens


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Can she literally not move as in paralysis or is she just very very weak? I would bet you are dealing with anemia cause by worm and/or coccidia overload but it is difficult to diagnose. If her membranes appear pale based on the image above then you are going to need an iron supplement such as injectable piglet iron or Red Cell horse supplement - either are readily available at farm supply stores.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

If I prop her up on her knees she will move then fall down I think she is very weak.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Hmmmm a 3 or 4 shouldn't cause that extreme weakness. Did you notice any staggering, weakness in the back end, or are her eyes kind of twitching or dancing??


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Whats the dosage for piglet iron?


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

SalteyLove said:


> Hmmmm a 3 or 4 shouldn't cause that extreme weakness. Did you notice any staggering, weakness in the back end, or are her eyes kind of twitching or dancing??


None of the above she was doing fine on Saturday I thought then on sunday she was on her side


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

is this the iron?
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/sto...0-ml-durvet-pig-supplement-tonic?cm_vc=-10005


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I believe the injectable iron is typically 4cc per 100lbs bit if she isn't presenting anemia (pale lids) it probably won't help her. I would get her a heat source to bring that temp up (heat lamp or heat pad) and prop her up between hay bales, her rumen will not function while she is sub-temp. Is there a local vet (even a dog vet?) you can run a fecal sample to right now and see if they see any overloads? Once her temp is up I would dose her with "MAGIC" : 1 part molasses, 2 parts karo syrup, 1 part corn oil

This is all just my personal opinion and a vet would really be the best option at this point.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

I don't have any good Goat vets around. I have been looking and looks like possibly the closest is 2 hours away one way.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

With the corid what is the dosage for a little one?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Getting her temp up and then dosing her with MAGIC will give her a good boost of energy. So if you set alfalfa pellets or hay in front of her she will go ahead and eat them??


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

SalteyLove said:


> Getting her temp up and then dosing her with MAGIC will give her a good boost of energy. So if you set alfalfa pellets or hay in front of her she will go ahead and eat them??


Yes


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

My best guess is meningeal worm then. Hopefully some other folks will jump on and give you recommendations as well. Do a little research on meningeal and see if you think it fits.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

cant find the symptoms for that


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/meningealworm.html


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

if I put her up on all 4's she then goes down to 2 front knees and then scoots along with not much strength. let me try the safeguard at 10x strength.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

How is her rumen function? Plenty of gurgling or silent?
For future reference, newborns do not ever need to be wormed.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

The weakness you are describing sounds so much like anemia - how about checking her gums instead of the inner eyelids. Are her gums pink??


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Let me check the gums they appeared a bit pale before.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Whats the dosage of red cell? Orally I imagine?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

red cell is 6 cc per 100# orally....she does not seem that anemic for treatment however...but Im not seeing her lids...so you need to make that call..

so temp is low
weak, cant stand
will eat whats placed in front of her
no start gazing, or drunk behavior

do you have white tail deer in your area? Im also thinking MW.

I would begin Safe guard..1 cc per 7# and ( I hate this but its needed) Ivomec Plus 
I would give her Banamine 1 cc per 100# sub Q 
B complex daily and Probiotics...

treatment is for 5 days

best article ever on Meningeal Worm
http://goatconnection.com/articles/publish/article_126.shtml



> Vitamin E, selenium, Vitamins B-complex, and Vitamin A are useful to assist healing of neural tissues.


Keep her proped up..dont let her lay on her side..this will cause rumen issues ..use hay bale or an old blanket rolled up...she shouldbe propped up on her sternum...


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

I just gave her 180ml of the magic juice. She is sitting up the best she can for what I can do. She drank a bunch of water also. I also gave her 1ml of iron and 1.5ml of B complex. Amd.probios


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Gums appear a little better today a little more red to pink to rose color hard to describe.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Fingers crossed that we have identified the problem! Post a photo of the little cutie when you can! Please let us know what other herd issues you are having (you mentioned in your original post) and we'll try to point you in the right direction.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if color is better on her gums and eye lids...stop iron treatment...you can over dose iron and so we need to be very careful!! Good job keeping her propped up....I would begin MW treatment...just in case

best wishes


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How old is this Doe?


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

she was born in may


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with the others.
I would give fortified vit B complex and probiotics for 4 days in a row at minimum, her rumen may be shut down.
As mentioned, any gut sounds or movement?

Safeguard doesn't work in our area. It is usually does 3x the dosage. 

Anytime we worm, we must do it again 10 days later to get hatching eggs. If they are supper bad, it is 3 x, 10 days apart.
If the goat is only wormed once, the worms will repopulate.

She is at the age for worms and cocci. 
To bad you couldn't get a fecal on her for both worms and cocci.
She doesn't have to have scours in order to have cocci. Rapid weight loss, gut pain, grinding teeth.

Also check for lice/mites.

Meningeal worm may be possible.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Whats the dosage for corid?


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

So tonight she got the following
60ml.of magic juice
1.5ml of b complex
1.5ml of b12
2ml of iron
6ml of corid

I think she has cocci starting to grind teeth when I gave her the magic juice


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Is there any hope in saving her?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Dont give B complex while giving Corid, its counter productive..cocci feed off thiamine and Corid mimicks Thiamine, therefore starves cocci and dies out....BUT watch close for signs of polio...is she begins to star gaze, act loopy..eyes dance ect...stop corid and dose with Thiamine or Fortified B complex....

best wishes...


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Thoughts of she will live?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

there is always hope....as long as she fights....but there is no way to say for sure...in the end we can only do so much...

how is she tonight? temp? alert? eye lid color? is she holding her head up?still eating and drinking on her own?? pooping berries and peeing?


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Tonight I found her.kn her side. Poop was now loose eye lid color was.pale not very alert. Gave her the magic juice.and.she became alert and held her head up. Honestly I thought I had lost her. But she started to eat hay and pellets.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Anyway to get rid of cocci in the fields? Any infonon cocci out there as.to why they get it?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Whats in the magic jiuce? 

all goats carry cocci...young kids immune system is not always strong enough to fight it...also stress lowers immune system...

best fighter agains cocci is Baycox..ordered from horseprerace.com given at 3 weeks of age as a preventive and then as needed..


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Magic - the karo/molasses recipe for weak goats


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Magic - the karo/molasses recipe for weak goats


So lots of sugar lol...A jump start of energy..


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Should I be giving corid to all goats as a prevention


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Its good practice to give preventive treatment to kids...adults usually do not need it without cause...

How is your doe today??


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Still down the cold weather at night and windy conditions are not helping.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Have you taken her rectal temperature again? If she is not holding her own temp it would be best to help her - cut the sleeve off a large sweatshirt to make a tube jacket for her, and/or provide a hard heating pad (like for dog house) or a heat lamp.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

It is worth it to mail a fecal sample to MidAmerica Agricultural Research. It only cost $5 per analysis plus shipping. Use the smallest Priority Flat Rate box from your post office and send a frozen disposable water bottle. Package everything in plastic bags. Print the form from their website. May as well send a sample from another goat in your herd too.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I re read the thread...trying to see if we missed anything...lots going on..
Can you recap what you are doing NOW for her and what you DID for her this week.....meds, supplements..how much and how often 

today is she.....
alert or lethargic
stronger today or weaker
is she holding up her head?
any rumen noise..gasses, burps, grumbling
Grinding teeth still or chewing a cud?
I would only offer hay, alfalfa, green leaves, vines, pine and or cedar ..no grain right now...
what is her temp today
color of lids compared to anemia chart? still at a 3-4?


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Well when I got there this afternoon she was sitting up. This is positive. I gave her 2ml of iron 2ml of b12 3ml of safeguard and 6ml of corid. She also got a few pumps of nutridrench and some probios. She was eating hay and drinking some water.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Her eye color was about the same.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok so lets work this out...
she is eating and drinking just fine...
eyes are 3-4 on the famancha score...
heads up...

is she alert? eyes bright...chewing a cud? hows her rumen noise...


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

What is cud? She's some what alert how do I check rumen?


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

I forgot to add her temp was up a bit at 103.9


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Ruminants bring up their food and chew it. That is a cud. You can see it coming up their throat when they bring one up. Then they chew it for a while and swallow it again.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes, what Karen said : ) the goat looks like a 1950's girl with a big ball of bubble gum chewing away..lol temp is good!! thats great news...

checking the rumen: listen for girgling, gas and burps...you can also often see it moving ( left side) When I need to check I lay my ear on the goats left side and pet and love on them so they relax....then listen...of course if she is bringing up a cud...then rumen is functioning ....

SOooooo, if she *is* chewing a cud..rumen is functioning just fine and now we know her temp is great...her only trouble right now is weak..cant stand??

sorry for all the questions...just trying to break things down to get a good picture of whats going on....


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im going to repost my earlier response because I believe you maybe dealing with MW complicated by possible cocci....If this is MW then time is not on her side..treatment needs to be done as soon as you see symptoms for it to be most effective...



> I would begin Safe guard..1 cc per 7# and
> Ivomec Plus 1 cc per 40# sub Q ( I hate this but its needed)
> I would give her Banamine 1 cc per 100# sub Q
> B complex daily and Probiotics...
> ...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Where do I get banamine?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

At the vet.


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

No goat vet near here


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## Summersun (Apr 24, 2014)

Horse or cow vet can prescribe banamine. Actually even my small animal vets usually have banamine. Just have to find one willing to prescribe without seeing the goat, or one that will see the goat and do a fecal while your there.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yep, any vet carries it. But the bad part is, vets just can't give it out without seeing a patient.
Do you have an established vet? If you do, chances are better on getting some.


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Our vets will sell banamine right out of the office without you being a prior customer. 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

Well thanks everyone however I lost her last night it was a big fight she appeared to get better then turned for the worst yesterday..Thank you all that helped me understand what to look for and give her. Maybe better luck with the next kidding


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so very sorry.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im so sorry you lost her!!


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## sokoservices (Aug 14, 2013)

I tried


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes you did!!! ((HUGS))


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