# Barber Pole and Blue Tongue - Double Whammy



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

Hi, crisis info needed please. Had 4 purebred, registered older Finnsheep lambs imported to my small farm in Georgia from 2 different flocks from NY State, complete with interstate health certificates etc., at great expense - Upon arrival, all were thin under their fleece (But I didn't realize, with all the commotion and fascination of their actual arrival, until I dug my fingers down into the wonderful crimpy soft fleece the next morning and felt bones). Over the next few days it was obvious they were declining. Of the 2 pairs (2 ewes from one farm, the 2 rams lambs from another, all purchased in one cooperative lot as joint venture where the breeders at each farm were working together) one ram and one ewe (In other words, one from each farm and KEPT now at separate farms) are now known to be seriously ill.

We had been advised to watch for the symptoms of Barber Pole Worm, and when we saw the symptoms a few days later and got immediate vet care, the fecal showed a 'low' or mild egg count - Yet the ewe and ram are both very anemic. Out of proportion to the infestation if that's all it is, and since they had just been wormed, it made no sense. (Vet wormed them again anyway).

I kept telling the emergency vets about the swollen muzzle on one of the ewes but they never answered me or seemed to take note of my concern. So I started looking for info. My own research indicates they are (also?) suffering from BTV or Blue Tongue Virus (it seems the swelling under the jaw is common to both maladies). 

FYI the ewes are at my farm, the rams at my business partner's farm miles away - Yet this is showing up in BOTH situations. 'His' ewe here and 'his' ram there. 'My' pair are both holding their own but not perfect - 'My' ewe at my farm is in the best shape relatively speaking, maybe because I discovered the issue first and began immediate aggressive supplementation to shore-up her resistance. So this situation is not caused by poor husbandry on my part (which had been my initial fear).

I am spending hundreds of dollars and weeks of intensive care, hand feeding, supplements, shots of b-complex/thiamine and steroids etc etc etc etc - But this can go on, it seems, for months to come.

ADVICE, PLEASE - These lambs could still be lost at any time - Insights, warnings or other feedback urgently requested. I've invested a lot of money (which was a real sacrifice of love and hope on my part) to purchase this seed flock, and I am not in the financial position to be able to start again should I lose them.

I love the sheep and very much want to continue with sheep, if I can just get them past this. We have been battling this a couple-three weeks now.
THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Are you supplementing for the anemia? Injectable iron?...I would also mix 50/50 Apple cider vinegar...(organic with the mother in it is best) with water drench 30 cc once daily until recovered..what wormer was used and how much? 

Since Blue tongue is viral, like sore mouth it will need to run its course while supportive care is given...medicating sores..helping sore feet with soaks , daily B complex making sure they are staying hydrated and eating...ect...


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im sure you have read all this but jus tin case this is a simple read outlining Blue tongue symptoms for you to keep watch for. I might be tempted to do a round of antibiotics as a preventive for secondary infection or illness due to low immune system...

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/FastFacts/pdfs/bluetongue_F.pdf


----------



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

Yes I have steroids and VitBcomplex/Thiamine/Iron blend injectibles - The apple cider drench I've not heard of, will def look into that! Right now I have two vets from 2 practices in the mix - Geesh. Poor ewe. I am determined to save her -
Thank you -


----------



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

Thank you for this too - Yes I've seen that and others. My vet (who I am starting to wonder about lol) says there are no antibiotics for it, but some breeders have recommended penicillin.

I am making rabbit-grade alfalfa hay/corn/beet pulp tea, drenching her with the cooled tea if she's off feed, letting her drink it herself, if she's up to it, then eat the soaked fiber/ingredients if she wants later, soaking Dumor All Life Stages sheep pellets, manually putting steeped alfalfa stems into her mouth to stimulate chewing, (works sometimes!), let her out to graze until she gets tired (when she's having a good day) and keeping her in a hospital pen with removable/adjustable cover) - Pretty much I am nursing her 24/7 for the last two + weeks. She gets her shots morning and evening and also a sheep-safe version of Red Cell orally in the morning, and oral R. Glycol daily. 

Will look into the apple cider vinegar drench- She quickly 'turns off' from foods she liked just hours ago, this will give me another safe option to keep her interested and less depressed. Great suggestion!


----------



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

Oh the wormer was one the vet gave but then the OTHER emergency vet I had to call a couple days later when the 1st vet never responded, recommended QUEST PLUS, they are about 50lbs right now, she said to double it to a 100 lb dose. 

I did that the next day - Probably shouldn't do another for a couple months, right? They say resistance it growing so to not worm unless the inner lid is showing more than just a mild paling. 

Forgot to mention she's also getting sheep probiotic paste and vitamin/mineral drench every couple days a needed. 

She's up again right now - Just snapped this photo. Thankfully when I let her out to graze, she will slowly make her way back here to rest most of the time - Makes my task a little easier.


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Oh no  So sorry you are going through this...I can't help but wanted to show support :hug:


----------



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

Thank you - It's appreciated.


----------



## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

Possible blue tongue out break ??? where is the state vet??? in this state the whole county would be shut down. no livestock would be moving. you would have more blood tests done in a day than you have sheep.
the lack of action by the state ag goons makes me think that 
your state is clueless or
you do not have blue tongue.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

the ACV and water drench helps anemia ....here is an article on that...I have used it many times..it helps

http://www.sheepmagazine.com/24-1/laurie_ball-gisch/

for feeding you can make a slurry out of the alfalfa pellets..add some yogurt and feed using a turkey baster..go slow..make sure she swallows....keeping her hydrated and fed will give her the strength to fight...

Quest stays in the system for 21 days? (maybe 28 days?Ill look it up lol) so no retreatment is needed too soon. If its needed..you can do Valbazen in 10 days...Goathiker suggested this..since its a different type of wormer...
I think doing Penicillin would be wise...be sure to give probiotics 3-4 hours after the Pen or wormer to restore flora..


----------



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

fivemoremiles said:


> Possible blue tongue out break ??? where is the state vet??? in this state the whole county would be shut down. no livestock would be moving. you would have more blood tests done in a day than you have sheep.
> the lack of action by the state ag goons makes me think that
> your state is clueless or
> you do not have blue tongue.


 Of course I could be wrong, HOPE I'm wrong but also don't want to miss anything important, so I do appreciate your feedback on this.

Here is what I am seeing: She IS anemic, no color in the inner eyelids - but also had/has swollen muzzle that subsides and/or gets worse and feels hot when swollen. Maybe that is also a symptom of Barber Pole Worm that I've not come across online?? It got better for a day or so then came back. However her color has never improved even with the treatments - Not even a little from what I can tell. Also swelling between or under the jaws, which sometimes feels hot and changes shape - It even started to go away then came back. Could be from either, also? Stiffness and trouble walking or getting up (which could also be a result of anemia weakness?). Noise sometimes in sinus area, like she's having a little trouble breathing - some clear mucous once or twice. No one ordered a blood test, I was surprised, just a fecal collection. Bur I guess with no test we just don't know.

She was wormed both before she got here and now a month or so after by my own vets -The egg count she did have was low/slight according to their results. Maybe BPW is even worse than I feared - Can even a low egg count of BPW cause this much trouble? Is this just the typical course of events with BPW? Yikes!

I have to go back to the vet to get more shots for her in the morning - I usually don't get to consult with anyone in person but I'll try to get the receptionist to ask if I need to get a blood sample for them.

Thank you so much for your feedback, fivemoremiles


----------



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

happybleats said:


> the ACV and water drench helps anemia ....here is an article on that...I have used it many times..it helps
> 
> http://www.sheepmagazine.com/24-1/laurie_ball-gisch/
> 
> ...


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you may have bottle jaw and not blue tongue...anemia, worm loads often lead to bottle jaw..which is when fluid seeps out when the sheep grazes, fluid seeps out and settles under the chin and face area...at rest some of the fluid sees back which makes the sheep or goat look like its better...only to swell up again..Im thinking this may be the problem...treatment is what you are doing...wormed, treat the anemia...injectable iron once a day for week then once a week until eyelid color improves..B 12 injection once daily, good feed, natural graze foods and 50/50 mix of ACV and water...30 cc once daily Daily probios and keep her hydrated...


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

WMD is selenium deficiency ..treated with either BoSe shot which is RX or you can get the selenium vit e gel...extra E wont hurt either...


----------



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

happybleats said:


> ."I would also mix 50/50 Apple cider vinegar...(organic with the mother in it is best) with water drench 30 cc once daily until recovered.."
> 
> LOL I didn't realize it actually SAID 'with the Mother' on the bottle - I was looking for an old lady on the label, lol! Anyway I found it, it's BRAGG Organic Raw Unfiltered Unpasturized ACV (just so anyone else reading this thread can locate it on the aisle) and I dosed all the sheep ('my' healthy ewe wanted more! The sickly one took it great) and the goats - Well, they are goats - They weren't as cooperative. Argh lol)
> 
> ...


----------



## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

What you are describing sounds like liver flukes to me.
with white mussel the lamb has great body condition.

is he spending lots of time as the salt block? coci is another thing I would be watching for the stress of the move can be a trigger


----------



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

fivemoremiles said:


> What you are describing sounds like liver flukes to me.
> with white mussel the lamb has great body condition.
> 
> is he spending lots of time as the salt block? coci is another thing I would be watching for the stress of the move can be a trigger


In fact, I have gone through three sheep-safe mineral blocks in about 2 months. Yes the goats also have access (I am looking to re-home them, though - I need to be able to focus my energy and resources on the sheep at this point). ALL have been voracious for it, biting multiple big chunks from it daily - but YES, Miracle has been particularly interested in it from the day she arrived, and when I put her in the hospital pen with a block (visible in the photo) she was obsessed with it even when she would take nothing else. And she still visits it several times a day. They all do when they have access.

I think she did get a cocci shot from one of the vets - But just one. I'll have to ask them more about that. Is there a test for the fluke? They all had clean health certificates when they came down from NY area (and I don't DARE ask the breeders anything else for fear of insulting/alienating them forever), but I will research incubation times and geographic prevalence of the fluke. If it's a Southern thing and they have never been exposed to it before, that would explain a lot.
**EDITED**
Looked it up online, thankfully although there is a nearby river, they don't have access to it and there is no standing water or mud flats on the property. Has good grass cover. Property gently slopes away from fields where they graze and I only have 2 ewes and 3 goats on the acreage. There are no tires or other reservoirs for standing water other than water tubs (Of course). Also, since the other farm where the rams (one of which is also sick) are being housed is a few miles away and also well drained and has show horses, (so is well maintained) there shouldn't be flukes there.

I hope it's not liver flukes but will keep alert for this!

Thank you SO much for the suggestion!


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Barpole and Liver fluke are the most common bottle jaw causes....only Ivomec plus or Valbazen kill liver fluke....when doing a fecal both are often mistaken for each other as the eggs look very familiar. 

for cocci...there are no shots for that., at least I have not heard of one :scratch:...only oral medication such as sulfa drugs, Dimethox, Albon and Sulmet...there is also Corid and my favorite Baycox (toltrazuril)


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Tetracycline kills cocci but, it must be done on a schedule. 

Anemia causes edema, in goats it settles in the face and jaw, in humans the legs and hands. 

Weak hindquarters can be a side effect of a large Quest dose. Vitamin B is recommended for that.


----------



## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I hope that it is liver fluke. one shot and you will see improvement.
cocci your sheep may never recover.
from what you are describing I would put my money on fluke. 
Cocci is a pain I have lost 5 lambs this year to it even though I have been feeding medicated salt to prevent it.
I hope you have a good ovine vet.
keep us informed on the outcome.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You can prevent cocci but, you have to work the herd. There are many ways to approach it.


----------



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

Hi Everyone,
Just got back from UGA Athens. Miracle was on death's door this morning shortly after I tended to her - She was 'off' but up when I went inside, but in a few minutes 'something' told me to get back out there and check her.

She was out flat on her side. not moving, seemingly not breathing, and had one flailed leg up on a feed bucket, her eyes were open, she was unresponsive when I touched her.

I don't take NO for an answer!

I grabbed and shook her and she started to respond - I got her on her feet and I called UGA right then and there.

When they got here they did blood and fecal work and checked everything, the other ewe is fine, Miracle - Well, it's a miracle she was even still in this world. The vet I'd been using never changed the treatment regime even though it wasn't working, right? So now we know that Ivermec wormers are no longer effective in this area (Dacula/Winder area of GA), and they gave her 3 wormers of different classes. We then loaded her up and took her to the college for a blood transfusion and a gut-bacteria transfer from their donor steer (forget what that procedure is called.)

We stopped the steroids and all the other stuff the vet here was giving me to give her. When I left Athens she was actually nibbling alfalfa hay, so I'm praying we can pull her through this.

She will be there for a few days - This won't be cheap, but I do feel she is under the best possible care right now. They did the right things and will see to her recovery.

<holding breath>


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

So glad you were able to get her some help..good for you!!!...keep us posted


----------



## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Any updates to this?


----------



## birdpond (Jul 11, 2015)

She's doing great - Great color (I check them both daily), gained all sorts of weight, active. She did have wool break - She looks all cleanly shorn. Managed to save most of the fleece in a bag. It's already growing back.
Rehomed all the goats because they are resistant to BPW but shed it in their droppings. Not going to risk this mess again! Life is much simpler now lol. I rotate their grazing with the horses. No issues - Life is good.
Thank you for all your help here!


----------



## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

So the goats gave it to your sheep? Thats crazy, but I guess it'd make sense. 

So glad she made it, though.


----------

