# Are your goats managed like pets or livestock?



## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

You have a new born kid that don't care if it lives or dies. do you work for hours to save it or do you let it go? if you do save the kid and it grows up. will it become part of the family? and the thought of selling it is just to hard so you keep it? or do you sell it. 
I find that the hardest part of goat herd management is to be hard cold and logical. 
Never keep a week kid because all you are doing is breeding week kids in to your herd. you will save your self hours of hard work and sleepless nights if you keep only the strong kids at birth.

the same concept goes with worming your goats. there are worms that have minimal effects on your herd and other worms that are killers. by treating the virulent worms that are making your goats anemic you are promoting the passive worms and weakening the worms effect on your herd. by managing my sheep herd this way I have not had to worm for my sheep for ten years.

you cant have pets and have a healthy strong herd. worm resistance is also genetic and you may have to cull your favorite goat.
It is my belief that CL resistance is hereditary also. with good management CL would not be the big problem that it is today.

One last story to make my point on the difference of treating your herd as pets or livestock.

I had a horse with colic the vet said I had a choice put her down or let him do surgery on her to fix the problem. the vet bill would be $3500.00. I asked the vet do people really spend that type of money on a horse? he said you would be surprised how many people fork out the money for the surgery.
I am not one of those people. I took her home and put her down with 15 cents of lead from my gun.
within two weeks I found another horse for $1200.00. I then took the remaining money I saved from the surgery and went to Las Vegas for the week end. I raised a drink and made a toast to Misty a dang good horse.
ps.
Magic the horse I bought for 1200 to replace misty is a much better horse.


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## slackwater (Jul 24, 2015)

I guess mine are all pets. Plenty of sleepless nights and unnecessary interventions, from your perspective.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It depends on your herd. My herd of 4 is mainly for my own milk and meat so more considered pets with perks. My one hard keeper stopped being a hard keeper when I did rumen boluses. So I'm sure I do more but can't afford to spend a ton. There is a limit.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Yes. ;-)


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Oh, definitely pets. But I'm pretty good at putting my foot down when it comes to selling kids. I would never ever cull though - couldn't bear it


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

I have 5 goats and one sheep and they are pets with perks. They give me a lot of enjoyment in life. . . also milk and cute kids. lol They all have names, they all know their names and a few of them have made it into the house. I figure that God gave them to me so I should do whatever I can to take care of them properly. 

EDIT: Let me specify a bit. I would put down an animal if it had a less then good quality of life due to medical reason. I would not let a kid just die if it was born weak, I would try my very hardest to save it.
Though I do whatever I can to keep my animals healthy and alive, I would not spend Heaps upon Heeps of money to save one, especially if a full recovery wasn't guaranteed or quality of life would be less then ideal. 
I have a medical savings envelop just for my animals and whatever is in that envelope is what I can spend If an emergency happens, but even saying that, there are limits dependent on the individual animals medical needs and situation. Sometimes, putting an animal down is kinder then keeping them alive.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I guess mine are both. There is one doe that will retire and live out her life as a pet the rest will leave at some point. Mine are bred to sell kids for 4-H I do keep a few to replace and grow my herd with better genetics. But besides the 1 doe if they are not productive they don't stay. As for the weak kids at birth I will spend the extra time to save them because they are worth money. I won't drop a ton of money in them but if I have to teach them for 5 hours to nurse I will. That kid will be sold as a project 4-H goat and if it's a doe I will tell the people to show it as a market doe not breeding. We have shown plenty of market does that due well but that's usually due to poor teat placement. But I get so much enjoyment from having the goats. They are livestock first but pets second.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.

Livestock and pets.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Mine goats are definitely pets! My horses and dogs are closer to livestock, but my goats are practically house pets. I've got one old fella going on fifteen with not a tooth left in his skull but since he's still happy I feed him his pelleted rations and I make sure to buy the late cutting alfalfa with all the soft green leaves he can still gobble down without chewing. 

My younger wethers do circus tricks, pull carts, and go hiking with us. With the amount of time I've invested training them, it would take me several years to replace them. I couldn't go to an auction and buy replacements like I could a horse since almost no one trains goats to do the things my boys do.

Some of my girls are more like pets and some more like livestock. They provide us with fresh milk every morning, and all of my girls know their individual names. Some have learned tricks. I don't have any unthrifty goats in my herd but I did cull one "pet" doe because she had several problems I couldn't fix and that I didn't want to pass on to anyone else. So I'm not opposed to doing what's needed for the best of my herd. 

I would never spend $3500 on colic surgery for a horse--you made a wise choice there. Some things are not only cost prohibitive, but the prognosis is too guarded to be worth it even if money were no object. I doubt I would do colic surgery even if it cost only $500. Maintaining the horse afterwards is the bigger cost in my opinion.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Livestock - in that I don't raise them to cuddle, live in the house or sing to. I do have names for all, brush them, and give them plenty of attention.
I will cull for unthriftiness, poor feet or anything that makes the animal unservicable. 

I feel it's important for me to be responsible for everything born on my farm. I made the decision to breed, so I should also be willing to provide care needed.

I will bring in cold kids and give them anything needed, had some champions in this situation that were initially ignored when born in terrible cold. I will not throw a ton of $$ into something that exhibits health issues continually. I send to slaughter, as I don't want people having a goat with problems.
I do test for disease, try to raise and retain the best stock for their intended purpose, and provide with a healthy diet, living quarters, pasture and health regimen. I don't believe in just throwing a goat out to pasture and see what happens, I feel I owe them more than that. - Plus domestic livestock needs more care than their wild cousins. 
They are livestock, but I love them all and will always try to do my best by them.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I am 100% with goatblessings. I have about 120 dairy goats of various ages from 3 months old up to a few oldsters. I have had to cull unthrify kids. I cried but pulled the trigger. My goats, my responsibility. Everyone has a name, all are healthy, and I basically live I the barn. But they are livestock.


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## Bree_6293 (Aug 4, 2014)

With the colic surgery I have had a horse have the surgery. Never ever again would I do it. That horse was worth much more than the surgery but the struggles he went through and the time to actually recover and he has never been the same horse again. It would've been kinder on the horse to be put down. 
I do have my special pet doe and 1 wether and I will bring in a cold/ rejected kid and raise them, give medication and get the vets to see them but not spend heaps and heaps on them. I do like to sit in the paddock and cuddle with them and spend time with them. Each one has a name and they know their names.. they produce milk for our family. There are some that are more pets and others that are not so pets.. there are the special ones and others I will keep through their retirement and never sell. I do get the disease tested yearly and spend time training and grooming them for showing... So both?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

More toward livestock but there are also pets in there. I admit I show favoritism to some over others.
First nope no way no how do I let a baby die. Emotions aside that is still $150 at the sale yard. I find people who do that simply lazy. One doesn't have to keep that kid but it's still money.
No matter if it's a pet or not I kinda give the 3 strikes your out on health issues. I have fought tooth and nail for ones that I adored and they just kept getting sick and eventually dying in my arms so I won't do it any more. I cull, probably harsher then some but I still do. I have a very hard core goat rancher friend and he is pretty strict on things. It didn't make sense to me but he said for every hour I spend on one animal that takes from the rest. I didn't get it at the time, but he also has 100's of head. I have 70 and I had a doe I kept that had terrible teats. Every year I would have to spend 2 days latching the kids on to get the hang of it. That was fine till all heck broke loose one year. I had her and her kids, another doe that was rejecting her kids, other does going into labor and it was to much with just stupid issues. So I cull on anything this is a constant issue no matter what the goat is.
For the horse thing though, it depends on which horse lol I have one being loaded in the morning to go to auction so nope I would have done the same thing. My new mare, yeah probably put her down too. But my main girl I would pay it but she is worth every penny because she is my partner. She crashes up and down mountains chasing cows and I come out in one piece, I can also throw my kids on her and she babysits them so yep I would pay it. Same thing with the goats. Some I would pay a God chunk of money to save, some I wouldn't......depending on IF I had the money at the time because I'm still a mom and I wouldn't take from my kids mouth for ANY of my animals. Harsh, but although I love my animals they are still not my offspring like some people claim their dogs to be, and my kids will come first. After that then the animals then me.


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## SeventeenFarms (Dec 10, 2013)

It's a good question. I can't say that I would do anything and everything, but if there's a good chance that whatever I do to save one of my animals, if it will give it a good life there after, I probably would if affordable. 
I know a woman, who I think was taken, who spent over $1000 on one chicken, that died. I would never go that far. I dont know how that vet sleeps at night.
But I have spent money on horses that maybe someone else wouldn't have - an eye removed on a retired horse (when I got him, someone else would have most likely sold him for slaughter), ongoing treatment for another with dsld. Although I can ride neither, there is a bond, and a satisfaction to know that they are well and happy. That's my return. There will come a time when its not practical to continue, but I will be able to live with myself knowing they had a good life for as long as possible. And I wont be broke- at least I dont think so.. Its a balance. I am lucky that I have a vet who is practical, but not cold, who isn't out to take our money, and knows there are limits.
I would do the same re my goats. If it wont break us, and it makes sense for the animal and us, I would do my best. I have already, by keeping an un thrifty goat and giving it extra care until it came around - mostly I gave it extra time and effort, and made sure it got enough feed, etc. Un fortunately, it died, in an accident playing with the others, but we had a few fun years that made it worth it.
I dont have a lot of animals- 4 goats, 3 horses, and some chickens, and I dont depend on them for my living - so maybe I can do a little more than someone else, and look at them differently. I dont show, so I can have a horse that cant be ridden and I can live with that. I'd like to ride (so I do at another barn), but it didnt work out that way with mine, and I can appreciate the days we did ride them. There will be another time. I dont breed and sell goats, so I am not continuing a bad line.
I have no wish to save and spend retirement money for pigging on a cruise ship, and I am ok with being happy, a bit selfless, and seeing animals in the pasture, so I don't mind having a budget for animal care- its what I like to do. 
But I wont spend a $1000 on a chicken.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Mine are pets and livestock. I will work extremely hard to save a weak kid, but it will probably go for meat, and not into my breeding stock herd.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

The goats are my pets, but the reason I like them is because they are livestock. I have put many down myself with the 15 cents of lead. I have sold goats right off the farm that I knew were going to be a barbeque hours later and was only slightly sad for a moment. Someone said my goat, my problem, I agree with that. I am blessed with a vet that is close, good, and fairly cheap, if he's not too busy. I've paid him when I knew it didn't make sense and been both happy about it and disappointed in myself for the stupidity later on. Management of goats is complicated enough that a lot of the problems that come up I blame on myself, so sometimes a goat that I like will get at least one pass for something that others might cull for. I try to keep my numbers down and go for quality so I can affordably keep my herd looking top knotch. My most successful family of show goats all originated from a doe I bought for dirt cheap from someone who was taking poor care of her and didn't really like her. This doe had problems and I didn't like her either. But from one lucky AI breeding, her one daughter who survived a horrible kidding became my best doe. If I'd have culled this doe kid because her mother was sketchy, I would have made a terrible mistake. I need to go feed and quit playing on the computer.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I guess in reading all the replies (which I loved), it's really not a matter of "pets vs. livestock" so very much. To me a pet is an animal who only provides pleasure. Livestock is anything that gives us other things like milk, meat, fiber, packing, etc. I think it's more a matter of management philosophy for our livestock that we do spend a lot of time, $$ and LOVE investing in. Also countless hours sitting in the barn waiting on your doe to kid :sigh: Just because they are livestock does not mean, by any stretch, that they are not well cared for or managed. Just a difference among breeders, philosophies, and style.

Love all the posts!:smile:


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

I think farming teaches a person where emotion need to end and practical sensibility needs to begin. Sometimes a person doesn't quite learn this lesson - and it's a hard one for sure - but I think those who do live through it and learn from it are better off for it.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

The babies that I had to put down, I tried everything to save them. Turns out I had purchased a bad lot of CDT from a local livestock supply store that did not refrigerate the vaccine. The vet figured I had tetanus after the first baby boy got sick. I lost 3 kids. It wasn't a matter of being cruel and just killing them because I couldn't be bothered, it was that the vet at the time charged $75 for a farm call and $35 for each euthanasia. That was over $300 just to put 3 little kids down at 3 different times in one week. 
I spent hours trying to save them and just holding and loving them. It was sad, but they were not going to recover.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

When I made my statement about being lazy and letting animals die I didn't mean don't ever put them down, I mean try and of course if they are simply just not going to make it do what needs to be done. I have had to put down my fair share of animals but I also spent hours trying to save them. I don't look at them and think that's to much, or it's not like I want that trait.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I am so pleased this thread has made use think about how we manage our goats.
Here is my first goat management experience. I bought 6 goats and bread them to kid with my sheep herd. that year I was lambing out 300 ewes. and wasn't prepared for what I ran in to. I just didn't have time to baby my goats. I was shocked when I lost 50% of the kids that were born. I didn't realize that goats were bread for milk not for mothering ability, kidding ease, and kid vigor. 
the few kids that lived became the foundation for my herd. 
today I often enter the barn during kidding and find my self saying where did you come from, Kidding has become a breeze that started with that first kidding disaster.

I hope that we can detach ourselves from the moment and look towards the future


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## Sara+pumpkin (Jul 21, 2015)

children. you would pay that money for your child, I would pay it for my goats.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Mine are livestock with perks 

They all have names, some have made it into the house, and they are enjoyable but I keep them with intent of making a little side cash with the amount of land I have available. I also cull if necessary though of course there are some exceptions there too..... 

One of my Nubian does I milk for a little while in the spring (to have some colostrum and milk on hand for bottle babies until I find them a home, etc.), who I obviously have gotten to know pretty good, is an escape artist and now has a $ next to her log in my books for this spring.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I do everything in my power to save a weak kid. At my place, if I have a weak kid it's because they were born in the cold and mom was busy with another kid and this one got chilled. My last 2 were purebred Nubians. Mom delivered early. I got home to find a buckling, weak but moving. I grabbed him and then found his sister, totally unresponsive. I grabbed both of them and ran to the house, screaming at them that they were not going to die. I worked on them all night. They survived and thrived and went back with mom.

Mine are sort of pets, in that I do give them treats and spoil them, but they are expected to get pregnant, deliver healthy kids and produce at least a gallon of milk/day on average for 10 months. You can treat them as pets and still raise them to meet a certain criteria. I breed for worm and foot rot resistance. I sell the kids, but my adults are my babies, my pets.


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## Steampunked (Mar 23, 2015)

I know someone who spent a like amount of money trying to save a chicken - I wouldn't do it, but rescuing chickens is everything she lives for. She rehabilitates factory chickens and keeps them as pets. Her day job is FOR her chickens. Everything she does in life? For fixing broken chickens.

I can't say I'd do it, but I'd never spend $2000 restoring a car, either, because I just don't care about cars. I guess for her this is her calling and what makes her happy, and in that sense, it's not $2000AUS on a chicken, it's $2000 on her, if that makes sense.

I'd spend about that much when I get my Nigerian Dwarves finally, but right now you need to understand that a Nigerian Dwarf costs about $20,000 here. 

I'd spend that much on my lovely old cat as for 13 years he has given utterly devoted service.

I'd spend a few bucks on meds for my chickens, but if they were suffering, I'd be eating them. I can't abide suffering in animals, but my investment in my chickens is that they're more farm animals than anything else.


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## cownancy (Dec 6, 2016)

*Thank you...New To Goats and Forum*

I live in Long Island, in a suburban area where only a few blocks are zoned agricultural. I am lucky enough to be allowed to have any farm animal I want, but there are not many people who are familiar with goats. I had an Alpine goat who lived to at least 15 years old and I have two Nigerian dwarfs that a friend bought and had to get rid of when the town intervened and this past weekend I am excited to have brought home two young Alpines. They are being kept separate from the Nigerians.

Because vet costs are so high on Long Island, I have to do a lot of things myself. So, I am so happy to have this be my first thread to read. I have always, intellectually, believed that, most of the time, when a horse or livestock animal requires significant medical care, it is often the best thing to humanely euthanize. These animals don't understand the process of suffering and long recoveries. I have rarely seen a colic outcome that justified the horse's suffering or the owner's financial sacrifice. But, I didn't know if people who were serious goat keepers would take into consideration the financial aspects of treating sick animals vs. euthanasia. Thank you for your practical, humane answers that have encouraged me greatly about my own instincts.

I'm afraid I will be leaning on many of you a lot as I attempt to be more responsible and serious in my goatkeeping.


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## Bree_6293 (Aug 4, 2014)

cownancy said:


> I live in Long Island, in a suburban area where only a few blocks are zoned agricultural. I am lucky enough to be allowed to have any farm animal I want, but there are not many people who are familiar with goats. I had an Alpine goat who lived to at least 15 years old and I have two Nigerian dwarfs that a friend bought and had to get rid of when the town intervened and this past weekend I am excited to have brought home two young Alpines. They are being kept separate from the Nigerians.
> 
> Because vet costs are so high on Long Island, I have to do a lot of things myself. So, I am so happy to have this be my first thread to read. I have always, intellectually, believed that, most of the time, when a horse or livestock animal requires significant medical care, it is often the best thing to humanely euthanize. These animals don't understand the process of suffering and long recoveries. I have rarely seen a colic outcome that justified the horse's suffering or the owner's financial sacrifice. But, I didn't know if people who were serious goat keepers would take into consideration the financial aspects of treating sick animals vs. euthanasia. Thank you for your practical, humane answers that have encouraged me greatly about my own instincts.
> 
> I'm afraid I will be leaning on many of you a lot as I attempt to be more responsible and serious in my goatkeeping.


In regards to your colic comment I have to disagree to some degree. Yes I would never put a horse through colic surgery ever again but I have also had some horses colic over the years and after a pain killer, relaxant and sometimes tubing oil they have come good with 1-2 treatments and no dramas since. I have only had 4 colics in the 15 years I have had them. One was the colic surgery, the next a horse that an idiot had fed mouldy bread to him over the fence, the next a wind sucker that coliced soon after purchase and after treatment we changed the feed for her and she stopped windsucking and never coliced again. The last was one I never figured out the cause but was very quickly fixed up and going really well.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

there are two basic types of colic one is caused by a feed change the other is from a twisted intestine. I have had as many as 22 head of horses on the ranch and in 50 years I can only remember having three colic from feed and all we did was give them a douse of cloves. the two with twisted gut we put down.


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## cownancy (Dec 6, 2016)

Let me clarify my comment. I would certainly try all that I could to treat a horse with colic, as I have in past years. It's just that when torsion is involved (surgery), the outcome is sketchy, extremely expensive (over $10k here) and the suffering great. I'm sorry if I made it sound like all colic = euthanasia. 

And, to further clarify, I have older, rescue mules, donkeys or horses and they are usually not good candidates for colic surgery. Many years ago, I had a wonderful horse who was not showing any signs of distress at 10pm. When I woke up in the morning at 7am, he was dead from an obvious colic. I have felt guilty about that ever since.


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

I've recently had to learn the difference between "pets" and livestock and trying to build up a business. Being a major animal lover it was a very hard decision to put down an animal that appears healthy but can't be sold because of an illness but also couldn't be kept if I wanted to continue to grow my herd. 

Do I think my decision would have been completely different if it was my favorite doe and not an unregistered buck....Probably. But I would like to think I am treating my herd more as livestock. My mom makes it so hard on me to do so because she looks at all animals as pets and thinks I'm crazy for having such strict rules. But I tell my self if we kept them all then our herd will never grow and we will never reach our dreams.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

we have not even talked about how the nonfarm public sees us because we treat our animals like livestock and not pets.
I keep seeing the cow that was down on slick concrete and the farmer is pushing it around with a front end loader It looked horrible but I thought to myself I have done that! How do you move a sick 1500 lbs. cow to the barn to be doctored?
in my case the cow was with in a week of calving I ended up taking a come along to roll her in to the bucket about a week later she calved wish it was a happy ending but I had to put her down a short time later


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

For every snapshot in time, like that cow, there is an entire story behind it that the animal rights people don't care to show. We (as society) have lost track of the agricultural roots and have started treating animals like they are people with human thoughts and feelings. In some cases this is probably ok, but at the end of the day, we are the superior (?? ) species and they are animals that we need to care for, but not humanize.


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

Goats Rock we definitely have lost track of our Agricultural roots! I face that every time I tell someone I raise meat goats.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Mine are livestock and pets...to a degree. Meaning, I do cull when necessary and have no problem naming my meat goats/chickens/ducks....whatever's. I hate that people say " Since I am such an animal lover" I can't do this or that...well, I am an animal lover too! What I think they should say is " Well, Since I don't have a "farming" mentality, and I have more of a "having an unusual pet" mentality, I can't do this or that".....Just a different viewpoint on what's a "pet" and what isn't....and what owning livestock is all about. Our ancestors would be horrified to know what we've done to the livestock....ie: chickens with "bling" and spending a thousand dollars on one to save it....I could go on, but you catch my drift! 

For me, if I have a weak kid, I try to save it within reason. No, I am not going to sell it for a pet or for breeding...I'm going to sell it at auction for meat or have it processed myself. Nothing worse than losing kids...emotionally it's sad, but financially, it's devastating! Now mind you, I only have a small herd. I do not fault people with larger herds who do/don't intervene. Again, it's a different ball game.But even on my level, I hate to lose any!

Actually, one of the things I don't understand is when people post goats for sale on CL and say "Not for meat"...I mean, do they have a problem with people eating healthy? Or is it that "pet" mentality? Every animal is not able to be a pet and if you can't keep your "pet" then why not let someone else use it for sustenance?... ...okay, off rant lol

I do however spoil mine,and I hate to sell an adult...but I will use them for meat when they are too old to produce anymore. Sometimes they have to stay in the freezer longer before I can use the meat....depends on if they were nice or a pain! 

Oh, and my hens go in the stew pot when they quit laying....and I adore my chickens!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

See except for a few on here all I'm seeing is people with livestock that we treat with RESPECT!! I am so very over the whole idea that if someone has livestock they are heartless jerks. MOST (not all) have livestock and show them respect. Of course there are ones that would rather shoot one of their animals then sink a dime in them and of course there's ones that all they see is $ signs on their heads but it's very simple to raise livestock with a heart. Yes I have some goats out there that will die here and as long as they are not constantly having health issues will stay here and live. Those are still pet livestock lol I will still breed them to try and pay for their food but they won't go any place. 
My biggest deal with my livestock and vets is the vets are clueless, unless it's something simple like giving me fluids, or something I know how to treat I no longer pick up the phone.
The animals rights crap gets my blood boiling!! I've seen enough posts that as far as I'm concerned everything they come up with is crap. Skinned out lambs with a sign that says how do you like your wool coat......seriously!! They are not skinned they are sheared! Cows are raped when being AIed, and pigs are forced to live in tiny stalls and can't even love on their babies. NO they are in tiny stalls so they don't kill their babies. They are making it so there's such a fine line between animal abuse and what should be ok. And really there's not a fine line between pet and livestock either. We can love and find to our livestock without them being classified as just pets.


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## cownancy (Dec 6, 2016)

For years, I have gotten flack from people because I have tried to explain to fellow dog rescue people that no kill shelters are impractical. If there are so many more dogs than homes, we will always have a triage system in place at the shelter/rescue level for rehoming animals. If you have a really, really sick older dog, or an aggressive, dangerous dog, how can you choose to put more effort into putting that dog (especially the dangerous dogs) back into the community and then have to put down a young, healthy dog when he stays in the shelter so long that he becomes very sick and depressed? 

Then there is the question of horse slaughter. It's not a question of whether we should have horse slaughter, it's that we need regulated, humane transporting and slaughter process. I would rather see a more natural way of dealing with this issue. Horse meat, as upsetting as this could be for many, would be so much better being used in some way rather than being burned or buried. I believe this in theory. Could I do it myself? I don't know. I cry when a stranger tells me they lost their dog, horse, goat, etc. I'm a big baby.

Here near NYC, the people think carriage horses are being abused by pulling carriages. Every horse I've stopped to pet, looks well fed, healthy, nice feet....but these animals "shouldn't work". 

I was raised in the D.C. suburbs and moved to the NYC suburbs, so I'm not a farmer or rancher, but I do believe a lot of the non-farming public needs to spend some time living in a farmer's shoes prior to jumping in to tell them how to conduct their businesses.


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## Steampunked (Mar 23, 2015)

Goats Rock said:


> In some cases this is probably ok, but at the end of the day, we are the superior (?? ) species and they are animals that we need to care for, but not humanize.


Oddly, I have the same outcome but believe the opposite - I don't believe we're superior for being human, I don't really feel superior to something like a dolphin or something.

But the truth is that animals do terrible things to one another. Nature is red in tooth and claw. Some animals even conduct something approaching human warfare with members of the same species, and human warfare makes almost everything else seem utterly innocent.

So my view is that I'm not superior to them - I'm not going to impose my human ethics and morals on them. If a saltwater crocodile ate a person, it wouldn't get a murder trial, it would get shot.

(This stuff kind of reminds me of Konrad Lorenz and the wolves and the doves. His argument was that wolves should be the symbols of peace and doves of violence - doves in the wild murder each other at far greater rates, and will peck each other to death over injuries or albinism. Most wolves will accept a 'surrender' of a subordinate and that wolf is not driven out of the pack.)


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

So my view is that I'm not superior to them - I'm not going to impose my human ethics and morals on them. If a saltwater crocodile ate a person, it wouldn't get a murder trial, it would get shot.

Sadly some didn't find the same views as you, they thought that alligator should have lived happily ever after and the parents should have been in jail!
But I'm with you, there are animals that are bad, no matter how we all want to 'save' everything I think a human life should be more important then any animal. I love animals so I'm not this heartless person. Heck right now I have 2 pigs and a baby goat in my house! But anyone come and point out ANY one of my animals and ask me if they killed someone what would I do. Unless it was my dog protecting me I wouldn't bat a eye while I tell you it would be shot.
We as humans always have to over do everything! Really it's true. There are animals out there being abused, I don't live in lala land I know this. But instead of focusing on the real abuse we have to go out and save everything. I do NOT support any rescues of any kind. The horse one I really don't. We need to open slaughter back up. Horses are one of my favorite animals but they are big and have seriously hurt people and usually the people are the ones that have to save that poor animal. There's also people who have lost their homes and can't afford to put their horses down. I'm not sure how much it is for a vet to do it but I do know that around here the lady that hauls dead animals off charges $500. So what do they do when no one will take that horse? They drop it off in a orchard. If they don't get on the road and hit  then they usually starve half to death before someone can get their hands on them. I don't find that a better life then being dropped off, have a few minutes of fear and it's all over with.......not to mention the thought of some family with their baby in the car driving along and hitting that horse makes my stomach turn


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> Actually, one of the things I don't understand is when people post goats for sale on CL and say "Not for meat"...I mean, do they have a problem with people eating healthy? Or is it that "pet" mentality? Every animal is not able to be a pet and if you can't keep your "pet" then why not let someone else use it for sustenance?


I'm one of those people. All of my goats are sold as "not for meat". The girls are dairy animals and the boys are packgoat prospects. We breed for this, and for this reason I also post them at prices higher than the going rate for meat. The packgoat prospects usually have a good bit of time and training put into them before they leave here. I'd be devastated if I found out someone barbecued them after I'd laid all that groundwork, just as I'd be devastated if someone bought a nice horse I'd bred and trained and they went home and slaughtered it next day for their dogs.

I have no problem with eating goats (nor slaughtering horses for that matter), but mine aren't bred for that and I like to make this clear to every one of my buyers. Now, if the goat becomes sick or injured or too old to do his job, I have no issue with them putting it in the freezer. We put one of our dairy does in the freezer because she had several problems we couldn't fix. But mine aren't leaving my place with that intention in mind. If I ever have a kid that has issues that make it unusable as a working or dairy prospect then I would be ok selling it for meat.


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## Oreosmom (Nov 19, 2016)

I remember when I was young mom would bring the really young foals in the house when they were sick with colic, when the vet came he took them out to the yard and would stick a syringe needle in their side to release gas, he would light the gas coming out, it looked like a blaze! Most those foals died no matter what we did. 
However, if there was a society for the breed, or someone who wanted the challenge or had the money to spare I'd say make a call give it a chance. For one if I got a call to be given a chance to care for a sick kid.. I'd jump at the chance. Give life a chance. Not to be confused with euthanizing for terminal situations. Then u gotta do whats right.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Damfino said:


> I'm one of those people. All of my goats are sold as "not for meat". The girls are dairy animals and the boys are packgoat prospects. We breed for this, and for this reason I also post them at prices higher than the going rate for meat. The packgoat prospects usually have a good bit of time and training put into them before they leave here. I'd be devastated if I found out someone barbecued them after I'd laid all that groundwork, just as I'd be devastated if someone bought a nice horse I'd bred and trained and they went home and slaughtered it next day for their dogs.
> 
> I have no problem with eating goats (nor slaughtering horses for that matter), but mine aren't bred for that and I like to make this clear to every one of my buyers. Now, if the goat becomes sick or injured or too old to do his job, I have no issue with them putting it in the freezer. We put one of our dairy does in the freezer because she had several problems we couldn't fix. But mine aren't leaving my place with that intention in mind. If I ever have a kid that has issues that make it unusable as a working or dairy prospect then I would be ok selling it for meat.


I can respect that. That's a sound reason...but unfortunately, I think a lot of them are just against people eating them since they won't.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

The hardest thing I do is making the decision to put an animal down
with 350 head of livestock I have to make this decision way more often than city folk realize
I am not a vet I don't have enough knowledge to make a decision 
There is a fine line between being human and kind and inhumane
I am ashamed to admit it but I think my desire to give the animal a chance to live way to often crosses the line of being inhuman


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Five more miles I do the same thing. There are times I kick myself for not ending it sooner, but I think if I did I would kick myself more with the what ifs.
I recently had a doe get sick with polio, I believe anyways. I went out there to find a goat screaming and couldn't walk. I honest to god did not think she was going to make it. I actually thought crap my husband just left and I have to put her down. (I can do it and have I just have a fear of them not dying right away) that stubborn got lived!! We also had a cow that was down after she had her calf. For 3 days nothing. We were due for a huge storm so we loaded the gun and headed down to her. She had just gotten up. So even though I feel bad about waiting till I am positive they are not going to make it I would rather do it that way then jump to it


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

NyGoatMom said:


> I can respect that. That's a sound reason...but unfortunately, I think a lot of them are just against people eating them since they won't.


 Personally, I think if someone has purchased a goat from me, they are free to eat it if they want to. I would probably be a little sad (mostly surprised!) if I found out they had eaten the goat, but once they've bought the animal it's completely up to them what they want to do with it. Of course, it would be a BIG waste of money eating a Nigerian Dwarf. 



fivemoremiles said:


> The hardest thing I do is making the decision to put an animal down
> with 350 head of livestock I have to make this decision way more often than city folk realize
> I am not a vet I don't have enough knowledge to make a decision
> There is a fine line between being human and kind and inhumane
> I am ashamed to admit it but I think my desire to give the animal a chance to live way to often crosses the line of being inhuman


 This is so hard! I've wondered about that myself... Unfortunately, I think sometimes the only way to learn is the hard way. But I would never, ever want to put down an animal and then later learn I could have saved it.


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## Clairepaws (Feb 2, 2016)

My goats are my babies completely and totally. :kidred::kidred: 
Will never be used for milk or meat, and have and never will be bred. We have a very close bond and cuddle everyday, do training together, and go for walks in the woods.

That being said though, I take a more natural approach towards their veterinary care. They have never been wormed while they've been with me (have never needed it), and have not been vaccinated since they were babies. They get free choice minerals, routine grooming, and plenty of fruits, veggies, browse, and of course LOVE. So far they've never been seriously ill and have never had any medical emergencies. But of course if anything ever happened I would immediately take them to the local emergency hospital and do whatever I could to make them better. They are only four years old though, so fingers crossed they stay healthy for a good while longer.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

I thought it was a rhetorical question


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

Thinking about humanizing animals....
I am a teacher and when my students start to humanize animals I talk to them about my chickens and their eggs. Then after awhile I ask what they think the chickens would do if I tossed an egg into the coop and it broke. The students always reply that the chickens would be furious with me. They are shocked to hear that the chickens will gobble down the broken egg and don't care about the fact that it might have been a chick one day. Hopefully some of my students will remember that story when they are grown and not turn into people who criticize agriculture.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Here at the Fritz Farm all livestock are pets..... Heck my mom even treats them like pets.....


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Its kind of neat that goats can be livestock and pets! Or pests...


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

^^^pests  Yeah, they definitely can be LOL!!


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## Oreosmom (Nov 19, 2016)

So we need a new word..petstock


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Mine are both pets and livestock. I will treat them as pets when they are with me but once ready to leave their mom they are livestock. If I feel that it will be too expensive and more than what the goat is worth then ill let nature take it corse and it will be treated as livestock.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Petstock...
So like, goats lounging on tie dye blankets trying illicit alfalfa, drinking barley malts, and passing out in flower power VW vans.


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

Yeah, mine are both. They can switch pretty easily to straight livestock though. I went outside today, and one of my lamancha does is lame, she's 12 years old and is mean as a snake to my ND, she has to be separate from them or would hurt them. So, I'll take a look at her foot but she fights me like crazy. She's tame, just hasn't had much management in her previous home. I also have ten dogs, and kibble is expensive. They love raw meaty bones (no weight bearing bones, don't want any broken teeth), and she's got plenty of those. 

All that being said, I remember being a little girl, and my grandfather had livestock. One week we'd be out visiting him and petting Tiny the calf, and the next time we'd visit we'd have roast and Grandpa saying, "mmm, isn't Tiny good?" Obviously that contributed to my personality, my view of my animals.

Even though I will eat my animals, without guilt, I believe I am a steward of my animals. God put these animals in my care, and it is my obligation to care for them as best I can.


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## goatmomLAM (May 11, 2017)

Pets with perks


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