# Help! Buck escaped. 2 month old doeling bred?



## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Is it possible for a 2 month old Nigerian Dwarf doeling to get pregnant??? He was targeting her specifically when I found him. If yes, she would be kidding at only 7 months old! That's way too young! is there any precedent for pregnancy that young? If there is, I'll take her in for an ultrasound in a month to check and get a termination. I don't want to use lute now, though, if she can't possibly get pregnant this young. Don't want to induce a first heat to early, or mess up normal development somehow. 

Ugh. I'm so spitting mad at my buck right now. I know, it's his job to breed, and he's just an animal and doesn't know better that they are too young, but I was thinking about bullets and goat sausage for the first time when I found him chasing down my favorite baby.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

It is possible, and NDs are known as a breed that can mature early. Did you actually see the deed?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Unfortunately it is possible.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Sausage sounds good !


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

LOL


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

I did not see the deed, and her tiny little vulva doesn't look red, swollen, irritated, gooey, or otherwise messed with. However, there was a 3 hour period between when I saw him with his buck apron properly fitted and placed and when I caught him chasing the doeling with his apron off.  I don't feel like I can trust that she is a virgin anymore.

Generally, I really like my buck. He's pretty laid back with me, but he is a yearling now, and is incredibly intensely focused on his girls and is obviously frustrated that his anti-mating apron gets in the way, especially when Snickers is in heat and flagrantly teasing him. He was better 2 weeks ago, before I sold his sons (8 week old bucklings) and he had someone to butt heads with to blow off his frustration. He was a great daddy, gently teaching those bucklings how to spar. He never spars with the does or doelings. He KNOWS the difference, and so do they. I might retain a wether for him next time we kid. We're renting right now, so I can't just put him 3 acres away from my does right now. We're hoping to close on a house soon, and then I'll be able to build Fort Knox and hide him inside.

I'll just take her in as soon as the vet says they can see anything with an ultrasound and hope desperately that he was unsuccessful in his pursuit of her. So mad! I'm trying to do my best by them rather, despite having a roller-coaster year that placed us in difficult times and non-ideal situations and then my brilliant, jerk-face buck decides to ruin everything!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

While it is possible they did mate, it is also possible that she won't settle from it, and it is also possible they did not mate. I think you have a good answer, but ask your vet if it would be better to lute her in a couple of weeks, that may be less harsh on her than aborting in a month. Because she's so young and little, I mean. Ask your vet and let me know what he/she says.

I hate those aprons.

Good idea to keep a wether. Males need males.


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## mariella (Feb 23, 2017)

If she was running from him nothing happened. But if she stopped and flagged then there is the possibility. You can stop implantation now with herbs such as Cat's claw, Queen Anne's lace seed, Rue, And Cotton root bark. If you go this rout keep in mind herbs don't always work but it would be less stress on the doeing then getting a termination.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

I hate that the apron is necessary right now. It won't last forever. 

Waiting on a call back from the vet now.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Vet wants to administer Lutelyse 10 days after the breeding happened to terminate pregnancy. She said if they have never cycled before, it will do nothing, and if they have, it will force a heat, terminating the pregnancy.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All good advice.


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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

I would likely wait until I could do a blood test. It is highly unlikely that she will actually get pregnant.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Can you take enough blood from a 15 lb doeling to test without causing a problem?


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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

You would wait 30 days to take it, but yes it only takes a couple of mLs, less than a teaspoon. She wouldn't notice it.

Here is more info on the blood test.

http://www.biotracking.com/goats


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Thanks!


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

On a doeling this young, wouldn't the risk of carrying even that long (30 days) be a greater risk than getting lutelyse 10 days later?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The early lute is what I would want without hesitation. But this is your doeling, not mine. The earlier the abortion the better, and this would have only the effect of a heat.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Not really, at 30 days the kids would still be the size of baby peas and the lute can cause your doeling to never become fertile. 
Veterinarians don't tell you about the side effects of cystic ovaries and/ or never coming into heat again.


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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

Hey, it's your goat! ;-)


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## PB_Nubians (Jan 17, 2017)

singinggoatgirl said:


> Vet wants to administer Lutelyse 10 days after the breeding happened to terminate pregnancy. She said if they have never cycled before, it will do nothing, and if they have, it will force a heat, terminating the pregnancy.


If it forces a heat cycle then she will still be running with the buck right? This whole situation will likely play out again. The main problem with your situation is that the buck and doe are running together. I realize your situation with limited space but cattle panels cost $20 and 2 cut down and put together would make a nice pen for a dwarf. I am not judging, just giving an idea to help with the problem. The goats are just doing what goats do, left to their own devices. Plus I would not lean towards abortion no matter the species. Good luck and God Bless


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

PB_Nubians said:


> I would not lean towards abortion no matter the species.


I don't think I heard you right, so I just asking for clarification here.

What I heard you say is that this doeling should carry to term, in spite of her immaturity and the harm to her future.

I'm sure I heard you wrong, but that is what I heard.

@Davon @goathiker and I are giving our input and respectfully learning from one another. I like learning the science behind what other people think, and often it informs my future decisions. I sincerely hope that others feel the same way. But none of us are in disagreement over whether or not this doeling should carry and deliver.

Do you really mean, "No matter what..."?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

goathiker said:


> Not really, at 30 days the kids would still be the size of baby peas and the lute can cause your doeling to never become fertile.
> Veterinarians don't tell you about the side effects of cystic ovaries and/ or never coming into heat again.


I have never heard of Lute doing that.
I have used lute here and there with possible oops breedings and they indeed were pregnant later, when I wanted them?

Lute will make them come into heat or abort them. The earlier you use it, it will reabsorb, rather than be actual labor, from being attached, the later it is done.

Lute should be given around 10 to 14 days after the oops, it is much easier for her in this time frame and the egg won't attach to the wall.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@PB_Nubians

Please make that @Davon @goathiker @mariarose AND @toth boer goats that are sincerely chiming in on when to abort and how, not whether.

Pam, thanks for your valued and informed input, as ever.

@singinggoatgirl All control is in your hands. It truly is your doeling. Whatever you decide can work. But not all decisions have equal chances of harm to your doeling (the one already alive, you understand what I mean)


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## PB_Nubians (Jan 17, 2017)

mariarose said:


> I don't think I heard you right, so I just asking for clarification here.
> 
> What I heard you say is that this doeling should carry to term, in spite of her immaturity and the harm to her future.
> 
> ...


I hope what I said was not viewed as disrespectful. Since I was not mentioned in the following statement about respectfully learning from one another.

(@Davon @goathiker and I are giving our input and respectfully learning from one another).

Just so you know.
I do not condone, nor would I ever breed a doe that young. I think we can all agree with that.
That being said, lets just say she is bred. Left to their natural instincts and abilities this pregnancy would only happen if she was mature enough to cycle. This would in (natures eyes) tell me that she is mature enough to conceive. This is what would happen in the wild. No matter how you or I feel changes this unfortunate situation. If you are going to raise animals you have to keep the boys and the girls separated unless you want them bred.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

I have Nigerians and none of mine come into heat that early. Not even close to that early.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

@PB_Nubians Ya know, it's kinda like when my 18 y/o says but who gives penicillin shots to wild goats, who trims their hooves, how many wild baby goats have a blankie? I say how many wild baby goats die? If you want to raise your goats like wild goats then you will have many losses. If you want to have domestic goats then you also know accidents can sometimes happen and you intervene when possible. In spite of what mother nature says, most responsible goat owners would quickly abort a pregnant baby to save her life. Really the only question here should be when it's safest.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

@PB_Nubians and @mariarose and anyone else with rising blood pressure.

Deep breaths my friends. Let's remember to keep it friendly (S)He just views it differently than you. From over here, PB-Nubians seems respectful. Thanks.

I recognize the faults with my set-up. I know it never would have happened if he weren't in there with them. I was really hoping the anti-mating apron would work. I have spoken with the manufacturer to modify it for my buck. I am doing all I can within my unique circumstances to find the right solution for me and mine. I never planned to run my buck anywhere near my does. In fact, when I started out, I never planned to keep a buck at all. I was hoping I could get driveway breedings on my girls, but that is not a thing in my area, and dairy goats can't be dairy goats without a buck involved.

I do not consider aborting lightly. I actually consider it to be the murder of a baby goat, IF my tiny Rosie doeling managed to conceive. However, they are animals. If I had an animal killing Rosie from the outside, I'd borrow a gun and shoot it, or I would take it out with a shovel, or something. Whether or not the buck counts COULD be in question, but he is not being malicious, so he stays for now. I strongly believe that if she conceived it would kill her or severely stunt her growth.

I disagree with comparing this to wild animals. Nature is cruel. If she conceived this young in the wild, it would still kill her, and her coming-into-heat-too-young-genes would not be perpetuated. She is a domesticated animal, and unfortunately, I don't trust all the breeders that have come before me to account for EVERYTHING I care about, including age of first heat. If they all assumed the buck would never see her until they deemed her ready, then deleterious genes (if they were in a wild animal) could be allowed to perpetuate, so long as the ancestors were conforming to what the breeder wanted (cuteness, resistance to parasites, milk production and flavor, temperament, etc.)

@IHEARTGOATS, that makes my heart easier to hear a ND breeder say they haven't seen a heat that early. I know her sire didn't do the deed until he was 4-5months old, so he wasn't the earliest bloomer in the world. Both of my does, I never saw a heat until 2 weeks after they kidded, so I have no idea on that side what expect.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

My blood pressure isn't even close to rising.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Now, I am not quite sure what I'm going to do, yet. I have 5 more days to decide whether I will lute her at the earliest time possible to make the labor and delivery as small as possible, or if I will take a pregnancy blood test at 30 days to determine first if there even is a pregnancy before terminating. 

It would help if someone could give me the day-by-day progression of goat pregnancy, like, when is implantation, how large the embryo is at 10 days post-breeding and 37 days post-breeding (this is a week after the day I draw blood so there is time to send it off to a lab and get results on whether or not she conceived, and then time to get the lute from the vet and administer).


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

@mariarose, I'm so glad. I was getting nervous reading through it all that this thread would devolve and fall apart when I still needed help. I hope you didn't find my comments offensive.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm not offended in the slightest. I'm astounded by a single post that I asked the poster to confirm that what I understood was what was meant. But I'm not the least bit "hetted up" as they say. You know me, you've spoken with me personally, you know I'll support what you have decided you need to do.

I'd be incredibly happy, ecstatic even, to know that the plain reading of what was said was incorrect. But that was the plain reading... No abortion no matter...

In the wild, as you know, doelings that young are not exposed to bucks. Those that are, and become pregnant, tend to die. Plain fact of the case.

It is your doeling, as has been said. Good scientific facts have been offered to you. Stick with science, and you'll usually be OK.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I just want to chime in about the lute......I am very much in agreement with goathiker and have sold 2 does after getting lute and have given up hope on the third and will be going down the road which is very very SAD. I paid a lot of money for this doe and didn’t know the risks of lute and, in my case, though lute was better then having commercial kids. Now yes I didn’t just give those 3 does lute that day, I gave it to about 15 after all my bucks broke out, so it was only 3 out of 20ish but I won’t touch it again unless I have to. 
This is me personally. I would wait the 30 days and draw the blood. There’s a 50/50 chance she is even bred. If she is bred, your out a blood test and still take the chances of a cystic doe (which I would in this case!) if she is open your not giving her lute, risking anything, for no reason. Again this is me as well as my experience with lute


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I want to say I really appreciate being educated about the problems with Lule. @goathiker @Jessica84 @Davon you've been really informative.

I have owned a doe that had been luted (when I ddid not own her), and that doe went forward and settled, and kidded, and has settled again. That is a single instance though. And I was not the one luting her. In fact, had the person spoken to me about it, I would have said, no, that isn't called for here. But she did not ask ahead of time, only told me afterwords what she had done.

so it did not seem to harm my one doe, but that is not what decisions should be made by.


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## PB_Nubians (Jan 17, 2017)

singinggoatgirl said:


> @PB_Nubians and @mariarose and anyone else with rising blood pressure.
> 
> Deep breaths my friends. Let's remember to keep it friendly (S)He just views it differently than you. From over here, PB-Nubians seems respectful. Thanks.
> 
> ...


I am fine and I wish you the best. I hope your little doe does great whichever way you decide to go. 
I never intended to or wished to upset anyone with my comments. These are my opinions. It seems that stating my opinion just turned into a pro life, pro choice political problem. This was not my intent. God Bless you and all and I am sorry.


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## PB_Nubians (Jan 17, 2017)

New-goat-mom said:


> @PB_Nubians Ya know, it's kinda like when my 18 y/o says but who gives penicillin shots to wild goats, who trims their hooves, how many wild baby goats have a blankie? I say how many wild baby goats die? If you want to raise your goats like wild goats then you will have many losses. If you want to have domestic goats then you also know accidents can sometimes happen and you intervene when possible. In spite of what mother nature says, most responsible goat owners would quickly abort a pregnant baby to save her life. Really the only question here should be when it's safest.


In response to your statement. Thank you for judging my ability to raise healthy and happy animals. If you are basing the way my farm and herd is run on this thread then I am sorry but you would be way off base. It was very kind of you to call me irresponsible also. 
This thread is not about me so lets try to keep it on topic so the information that she needs gets to her. My opinion along with everyone else's is just as informative if you want the whole picture.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I don’t think it’s a huge common thing that happens but it most definitely happens. I have seen a few posts on here about it as well. I never officially kept track of how many times I have given lute before, I even tried it on a few does to bring them into heat once, but my opinion has changed from that day that I gave lute thinking “well even if they are not bred what’s it going to hurt” to now, being extremely upset I have to sell this doe. The other 2 it wasn’t a big deal other then I kinda feel guilty it was my fault. But I won’t use it again unless I’m in a situation, like if I did have a very very young doe get bred but only if it was 100% bred.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

@PB_Nubians, Like I said, you've only come across as respectful to me. I'm hoping she just didn't take, because I'm not a big fan of abortion. If it had only been the adults, I'd just let it go and do my best to give huge amounts of supportive care, lots of high quality food and dry them up ASAP.

I'm a little worried about using lute now that both Jill and Jessica have said it can go south. I'm thinking I'll do a pregnancy test and deal with whatever comes then.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

PB_Nubians said:


> In response to your statement. Thank you for judging my ability to raise healthy and happy animals. If you are basing the way my farm and herd is run on this thread then I am sorry but you would be way off base. It was very kind of you to call me irresponsible also.
> This thread is not about me so lets try to keep it on topic so the information that she needs gets to her. My opinion along with everyone else's is just as informative if you want the whole picture.


I have absolutely no clue where you got the information you CLAIM I said, but certainly not from my post. Try reading it again. Not once did I say you don't raise healthy animals OR call you irresponsible. A bit of reading comprehension can go a long way toward peaceful discussion. It is clear that "if you want to..." is a collective "you", as I was discussing a conversation with my own child. The part about being irresponsible... well you almost had to deliberately take that one and stretch it.


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## PB_Nubians (Jan 17, 2017)

New-goat-mom said:


> I have absolutely no clue where you got the information you CLAIM I said, but certainly not from my post. Try reading it again. Not once did I say you don't raise healthy animals OR call you irresponsible. A bit of reading comprehension can go a long way toward peaceful discussion. It is clear that "if you want to..." is a collective "you", as I was discussing a conversation with my own child. The part about being irresponsible... well you almost had to deliberately take that one and stretch it.


I was an English major and I can read fine but if I misinterpreted the intent of your post I am sorry. God Bless you and we will just call it over. I wish you the best.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

@singinggoatgirl i think it is unlikely that she is pregnant but it is always better to be safe than sorry. have you actually seen the doeling go into heat before? i had a scare like this before too, so i know how you feel, it is so stressful. I'm sorry you have to go through this. Accidents happen


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

@Old Post Farm I have not seen her in heat before. I might be bad at noticing heats, but I've also only ever had clueless first fresheners. She has only ever ignored the buck and baby bucklings or run away from them as she has gotten more dexterous. Thank you for your kind words.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

singinggoatgirl said:


> Now, I am not quite sure what I'm going to do, yet. I have 5 more days to decide whether I will lute her at the earliest time possible to make the labor and delivery as small as possible, or if I will take a pregnancy blood test at 30 days to determine first if there even is a pregnancy before terminating.
> 
> It would help if someone could give me the day-by-day progression of goat pregnancy, like, when is implantation, how large the embryo is at 10 days post-breeding and 37 days post-breeding (this is a week after the day I draw blood so there is time to send it off to a lab and get results on whether or not she conceived, and then time to get the lute from the vet and administer).


I can't give a day-by-day progression, but I believe implantation happens around 7-10 days. Hence the "wait 10 days before Lute". If you Lute too early before the egg has implanted then the pregnancy will not abort. At one month there is an embryo but not yet a fetus. I have used Lute at one month on a doe that accidentally got bred by her father and there was a small amount of bloody goo. At that early stage there is no "birth" or contractions. It's more like a messy heat cycle and it won't stress your doeling at all.

I've heard of some people online having problems with cystitis caused by Lute but I've never experienced it. I had to Lute almost all my does last year because my neighbor's buck broke loose and got in my pen one night. Naturally all but one of my girls were in heat! None of them had trouble cycling afterwards and were bred by my own bucks later that season. I had to Lute the other little doe this year when her father got to her. She bred on the next heat cycle to the buck I wanted and is confirmed pregnant. One thing I've noticed with Lute is that I more often see 5-day heat cycles where they come into heat properly at 3 weeks and then come back in 5 days later. They take on the short cycle. I haven't had any 5-day heats on non-Luted does. Several of my friends have used Lute for years without problems. One of them is a vet and uses it to synchronize heat cycles for easier breeding both in her own herd and at the zoo where she works. She's never had a cystic doe in her own herd or at the zoo. So while I'm sure some people have had problems, I'm thinking it's pretty unusual.

I suggest waiting for the pregnancy test. I'm guessing she's not pregnant. But if she is I don't think you should worry too much about Luting her at 5 weeks.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

@Damfino Thank you for the pregnancy progression, your experiences, and words of wisdom. Good to understand why luting right now is pointless, and to hear what an aborted pregnancy at one month might look like.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

I was on my back deck in Nov and saw my best doe Zamia at the fence
We were going to breed her later because we are going to Nationals
All of a sudden I see one of my bucks breed her
I run out there and put him back and saw a small space where 2 fences meet that he got through
So I fixed it
We luted her at 14 days because we really wanted to breed her to another buck
It didn't work she is due at the end of March
I thought he had just gotten In there but several of our spring 2017 kids started getting udder s
Ultra sounds confirmed they are bred
Several being 4
So he bred 5 while he was in there
2 were only 6 months old but vet thinks they will be fine
2 of them in particular are pretty valuable so we are going to see a friend this weekend that works at the vet school
Want to see if they have more sophisticated ultrasound our vet couldn't tell for sure how many
Maybe they can tell size
We also may take them to vet school when due and have them induce labor and then they will be there if a problem arises


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

The point of my last post @singinggoatgirl is that we have been doing this a long time and "stuff" happens
You just try to do what you think is best, learn from mistakes, and move forward


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

My 6 month old TINY (but healthy) Mini-Nubian doeling accidentally got bred by our Mini-Lamancha buck. After much thought we did give her a shot of lute at 11 days post breeding, but that did not terminate the pregnancy and she just recently had a healthy buckling, no assistance needed. Although it probably stunted her growth, she is an amazing mother and I am kind of glad that the lute didn’t work... I don’t like aborting anymore than y’all do, but I only did because my Hildy was itty bitty and I didn’t think the outcome would be so great. I hate being in this predicament, it’s definitely not fun.  

And, last fall my Nubian buck got out with my FF Mini-Lamancha doe, and we decided NOT to give her lute. (I, also, had read of the possible negative affects from it and decided to risk it) She had a pair of healthy, Mini-Mancha-sized twins 6 weeks ago. 

All that to say, I know that a 6 month old getting bred is a lot different from a 2 month old. But just wanted to share. It is ultimately your decision! 
If you do decide to lute her, I’d give it at 14 days or so, instead of 10-11.


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## Treu Shutz (Feb 27, 2018)

I've been reading this and finally decided to chime in. I had a similar incident. I had 3 females (dogs) come into heat I kenneled them up in a 6ft kennel away from my male when I went to check on them my male was in the kennel with them 2 were on the younger side and 1 had a planned breeding to a heavily titled stud for her next heat. In dogs the shot is called P.G.600 and it's the same thing as Lute but for dogs and pigs. So I used it on all 3 of my dogs all 3 came into heat instantly but when it was time for them to come in heat again naturally, only 2 came back into heat the third never did come back into heat naturally not even 2 years later. I was so mad at myself that was one of my best females and I basically caused her to be sterile. The male that got in with them was only 5 months old so there was a very good chance he couldn't have even gotten them pregnant. I wouldn't risk it unless I knew for sure your female is pregnant.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I wonder if the varying experiences with this product have anything to do with the particular brand or the shelf life, or if some people might be administering incorrectly. The label is very specific that it must be given IM, but some people don't read labels very closely and there may be a significant number of cases where goat people go into auto-pilot on the injection and give SQ without even realizing it (I almost did one time). There is also some discussion on how much to give and how many days to wait before giving it. I've talked to two vets with differing opinions.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

What did your two vets think on how much to give and when?


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## Treu Shutz (Feb 27, 2018)

Damfino said:


> I wonder if the varying experiences with this product have anything to do with the particular brand or the shelf life, or if some people might be administering incorrectly. The label is very specific that it must be given IM, but some people don't read labels very closely and there may be a significant number of cases where goat people go into auto-pilot on the injection and give SQ without even realizing it (I almost did one time). There is also some discussion on how much to give and how many days to wait before giving it. I've talked to two vets with differing opinions.


I think it's more of an animal to animal thing like with all medicine some experience the side effects while others nothing happens to them. I know in my case the shot was the same for all 3 seeing as it came out of the same bottle so nothing was different there. I gave the shot to all of them the same day and the same way. Nothing was different yet I experienced 2 different results in the end. For 2 it worked perfectly and for the 3rd the results were bad and irreversible.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I gave 2cc's in the muscle at 14 days on the advice of one vet who works with goats more. A different vet suggested 1.5cc's at two weeks and then another 1.5cc's like 10 days later or something (just in case the first didn't work). 

2cc's IM is what everyone around here does as far as I know, and I've yet to actually meet someone in person who has had a single doe become cystic from it. I've spoken to many goat breeders who routinely use Lute in the fall to cycle their does at specific times if they have limited access to a particular buck, or if they use AI. I never heard of it causing infertility until I read stories of it here. It's quite true that different individuals may react unexpectedly to any drug or hormone. It's also possible that a drug will still work in some cases even if it was mishandled, so if someone were to mis-administer a drug or use one that was somehow tainted, it could cause problems in certain animals but not the others. Same thing if a certain drug brand is of lower quality--it might cause more adverse reactions than others, but it wouldn't cause all animals to react adversely across the board. As far as I know, everyone around here uses the name brand Lutalyse.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

^ Caveat about the 2cc's - I have full-sized dairy goats, and the youngest I've ever Luted was about 5 months old. So definitely consult with your vet on dosage. I'm hoping she turns out unbred and you don't have to worry about any of this. I'm thinking it's pretty unlikely she's pregnant, but you've got some info to tuck away for any future accidents. 

I also wanted to say something about the buck apron. I use them on our bucks when they run with the herd during the day and I had a problem with them slipping off the back. I ended up using a piece of twine to tie the apron to the collar. I haven't had one slip off since. Just make sure the collar is leather or has a plastic clip that can break if your goat gets caught up. My bucks are hard on collars and have broken several of the plastic clip kind, but that's better than getting in trouble with a nylon collar that won't break.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with Damfino, given properly is key and you do not want to use one with expiration date.

Lute is also used to bring goats in season so, it seems odd that is will do harm and cause sterilization on a goat. But who knows.

OP use your best judgment, I know it is hard to deal with this.
Do know, someone did have a 2 month old goat conceive on here, it was a long time ago, I never thought it could happen but did and was verified by a vet. Can't remember who that was.

If Lute is used at 14 days, it doesn't allow the egg to plant itself on the uterine wall, it just flushes it out basically.

 Words we type may be taken in the wrong way, and meant to be said in a another way. 
Glad we had clarification on it and it was settled. Good work.


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## Treu Shutz (Feb 27, 2018)

When I administered mines the shot wasn't expired. I gave it correctly and the right amount. It was name brand. I ordered mines through my vet. When I did more research and actually talked to people who used there were cases of the shot effecting heat cycles afterward not a lot but enough to at least make you think twice and reconsider. I haven't used the shot again but I haven't needed to I've been very careful since that incidence but if I did have to use it again depending on the situation and the dog I might risk it again.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

If this was looked at scientifically there are some animals, just like humans, who are sterile & would have been so even without the lute. That's why they use control groups in scientific studies--to see if the treated group ended up with MORE sterile animals than the untreated group. With large enough groups there would be some sterile animals in each.

I've been struggling with buck aprons for a few years & my buck also needs a chest strap or his comes off. I know he's happy living with his wives but it's a nuisance for me & we've had a couple unplanned pregnancies. I kind of look at the apron like natural family planning for humans--you'll end up with fewer kids than if you used nothing at all, but if your doctor says pregnancy would kill you it's definitely not the way to go. I think that's why they now call natural family planning "child spacing." Luckily my breed is critically endangered so kids are always welcome, & the does are very hardy & almost immune to kidding problems.


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## Treu Shutz (Feb 27, 2018)

catharina said:


> If this was looked at scientifically there are some animals, just like humans, who are sterile & would have been so even without the lute. That's why they use control groups in scientific studies--to see if the treated group ended up with MORE sterile animals than the untreated group. With large enough groups there would be some sterile animals in each.
> 
> I've been struggling with buck aprons for a few years & my buck also needs a chest strap or his comes off. I know he's happy living with his wives but it's a nuisance for me & we've had a couple unplanned pregnancies. I kind of look at the apron like natural family planning for humans--you'll end up with fewer kids than if you used nothing at all, but if your doctor says pregnancy would kill you it's definitely not the way to go. I think that's why they now call natural family planning "child spacing." Luckily my breed is critically endangered so kids are always welcome, & the does are very hardy & almost immune to kidding problems.


But in that case if the animal was sterile before would they have even come into heat in the first place? In my case the female who never came back into heat was perfectly fine 7 months before the incident she had a nice healthy litter with a good amount of puppies in it.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

In which muscle do you give an IM shot?


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Also, I recognize it might not have been your experience with the dog, but humans can go through menstrual cycles that look normal and have trouble conceiving naturally, so I assume animals can too.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I think in every case the doe was having a pregnancy terminated and mine was done at OSU.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

@goathiker, you lost one to infertility?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)




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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

singinggoatgirl said:


> In which muscle do you give an IM shot?


I give it in the biggish muscle behind the shoulder. Your vet may prefer a different muscle though.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Goat_Scout said:


> My 6 month old TINY (but healthy) Mini-Nubian doeling accidentally got bred by our Mini-Lamancha buck. After much thought we did give her a shot of lute at 11 days post breeding, but that did not terminate the pregnancy and she just recently had a healthy buckling, no assistance needed. Although it probably stunted her growth, she is an amazing mother and I am kind of glad that the lute didn't work... I don't like aborting anymore than y'all do, but I only did because my Hildy was itty bitty and I didn't think the outcome would be so great. I hate being in this predicament, it's definitely not fun.
> 
> And, last fall my Nubian buck got out with my FF Mini-Lamancha doe, and we decided NOT to give her lute. (I, also, had read of the possible negative affects from it and decided to risk it) She had a pair of healthy, Mini-Mancha-sized twins 6 weeks ago.
> 
> ...


I don't think breeding young stunts growth
In the past we had a 7 month old bred accidently and one we bred on purpose
Both are mature now and very good size 21 1/2 in Nigerian
One is a finished champion with a milk star and a 90 VEEE appraisal score


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I can’t quite more then once so I’ll back track to the lute.
The doe I’m having issues with has kidded 3 times before I have her the lute, the other once and another was a FF. All were given IM at 14 days. That’s the way I had always done it and like I said on 90% of them it was fine and worked with no side effects. I don’t think they were “issue” Goats, two obviously were not, and i did everything correct with lute that was NOT expired. It is simply a side effect and one that I do believe is not that common but does happen.
I also agree breeding young doesn’t stunt them. Slow down their growing at the time? Yes but, like I have said before on many posts when I first started with Goats I let Bucks and does run together. I still have a good handful of those does and I’d rhey were stunted I would hate to see what they would have looked like not stunted. My sissy doe who was bred at 6 months old has bypassed her dam. But it IS hard on the young ones. Even though in the end they are still going to reach X size they are still growing a good amount at a younger age and they are having to share neutrino with kids while doing so. What really turned me off of this management was they just looked like crap. Even pouring feed to them they just couldn’t keep weight on and support kids. I was sick of basically looking at thin does.
Also it was hard on me! Making sure I was there for all the younger ones kidding so if they needed help and stressing about it. So although I agree it does not stunt growth it is not something that I would promote either.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Update: ultrasound shows all open! He didn't impregnate the baby! Huzzah!


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

That is GREAT news!!


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

:7up:


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## LuvmyNubians (Jan 20, 2018)

Awesome such wonderful news! My black lab tried to mount my 9 week old female 5 years ago. He was immediately fixed! She was fixed as well a few months later as I had no plan of breeding. Not want you want to do for your buck of course but crazy how persistent those males can be!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good to hear.


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## Miller'sLostGoat (Apr 26, 2018)

singinggoatgirl said:


> I did not see the deed, and her tiny little vulva doesn't look red, swollen, irritated, gooey, or otherwise messed with. However, there was a 3 hour period between when I saw him with his buck apron properly fitted and placed and when I caught him chasing the doeling with his apron off.  I don't feel like I can trust that she is a virgin anymore.
> 
> Generally, I really like my buck. He's pretty laid back with me, but he is a yearling now, and is incredibly intensely focused on his girls and is obviously frustrated that his anti-mating apron gets in the way, especially when Snickers is in heat and flagrantly teasing him. He was better 2 weeks ago, before I sold his sons (8 week old bucklings) and he had someone to butt heads with to blow off his frustration. He was a great daddy, gently teaching those bucklings how to spar. He never spars with the does or doelings. He KNOWS the difference, and so do they. I might retain a wether for him next time we kid. We're renting right now, so I can't just put him 3 acres away from my does right now. We're hoping to close on a house soon, and then I'll be able to build Fort Knox and hide him inside.
> 
> I'll just take her in as soon as the vet says they can see anything with an ultrasound and hope desperately that he was unsuccessful in his pursuit of her. So mad! I'm trying to do my best by them rather, despite having a roller-coaster year that placed us in difficult times and non-ideal situations and then my brilliant, jerk-face buck decides to ruin everything!


Well you can not blame the buck for trying to do his job.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Yes, I can. I can blame him for all this unnecessary rain, too, if I want. It's definitely my sweet buck's fault that all this cold, unpleasant wet stuff is falling from the sky and creating a lake out of my front lawn! 

Jesting aside, I know full well that he did as I would expect any freshly liberated buck surrounded by gorgeous, flirtatious, and desperate does would have done - chase them down with his tongue hanging out, fully appreciating his good fortune. :hubbahubba:

That particular post was a rant written while worried about my doeling, knowing others have been in this position of escaped bucks before, and I was shamelessly looking for advice and also commiseration. I'm human. Humans do that kind of thing. It's normal.


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## Miller'sLostGoat (Apr 26, 2018)

singinggoatgirl said:


> Yes, I can. I can blame him for all this unnecessary rain, too, if I want. It's definitely my sweet buck's fault that all this cold, unpleasant wet stuff is falling from the sky and creating a lake out of my front lawn!
> 
> Jesting aside, I know full well that he did as I would expect any freshly liberated buck surrounded by gorgeous, flirtatious, and desperate does would have done - chase them down with his tongue hanging out, fully appreciating his good fortune. :hubbahubba:
> 
> That particular post was a rant written while worried about my doeling, knowing others have been in this position of escaped bucks before, and I was shamelessly looking for advice and also commiseration. I'm human. Humans do that kind of thing. It's normal.


lol we all have those goat moments. I have had a few sleeper bucks, no sign of interest in anyone, very mild tempered and chill. Several times I have ranted at them in frustration when one of my does was in heat and he was just laying there chewing cud. But some how everyone does kid, even though they appear to be lazy guys.


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