# Roman nose on an Alpine



## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

How big of a fault is a Roman nose on an Alpine? I have one 9 month-old doeling (not bred by me) that has a definite Roman nose. It's not Nubian looking, but it is severe for an Alpine. All of my other gals have lovely, dished faces. I have a 1 1/2 year old Alpine milker that has a very slight Roman nose, also not bred by me. I know what the scorecard says, but I do feel it detracts from the initial impression of her

I am not a fan, but the doeling comes from great milking and show lines and is a sweetie-pie, so I'm looking past it. I bought from the breeder at a great price, but sight unseen as a companion for a buckling last year, since he had been exposed to sore mouth and needed to be quarantined for awhile once I got him. She described the doe to me, but conveniently left out the Roman nose part. How bad is it in the show ring and does the degree of it matter? I'll try and get some pictures in a little bit.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm not 100% sure off hand, but I think it falls under either a serious fault, or a DQ.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I'm not 100% sure off hand, but I think it falls under either a serious fault, or a DQ.


Ok, I looked it up and it says moderate to serious. This would probably fall under serious. How many points is that?

Secondary question, how difficult is this trait to correct? My older doe with the slightly Roman nose had a buck and a doe last year and both did not carry that trait. I have a quality buck that so far has thrown lovely heads, so I am hoping if I breed her to him this fall he may fix it.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I think 5 points, been a long time, I'll check. 

Depending on how fixed that trait is, could take 2 generations, or more, because every now and then you get a throwback.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Here is Dita, with the slight Roman nose (looks worse than usual due to the winter fur and rubbed off areas):









And here is Kate. I feel like it looks worse in person, but maybe I'm fixating on it. She has a pretty coarse head in general:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you like her, you could always breed her for home milkers and don't register anything.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Ok, so for a junior doe, the head is 10% of the score, for sr does it's 5% of the score. The 2nd doe definitely doesn't have an Alpine type head, the 1st doe is acceptable. Does the 2nd doe have any experimental or record grades in the pedigree, any nubians in particular? Is she purebred or american?


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

The first doe is a PB Alpine. The second doe is an American Alpine, and as far as I know does not have any of the sort in her pedigree, but like I said, I don't know.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> If you like her, you could always breed her for home milkers and don't register anything.


She was already regisered when I bought her. I am trying to start a dairy, so her not being a show champ isnt the end of the world, but I do wish that I had been informed of her Roman nose when purchasing sight unseen. There is a lot of implicit trust when you do so. Her nose was very evident when I picked her up, and while not a deal breaker, I would have appreciated and expected to be informed of it.

As an aside, please can nobody mention the specific breeder in posts. I only posted Kate's pedigree to see if anyone can see where the nose may have come from, not to pick on any other breeder. I have a beautiful buck from similar lines that was very fortunate to be able to purchase.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Ok, it looks like she might just be a throwback to the Roeburn line, a lot of those does had that same muzzle. For some reason, most of their does had that same head or a completely straight face, no dish at all, not sure where it came from but some of the dam lines had it bred in stronger than others, they still placed well though. As she matures, she will probably get a dip between her forehead and the start of the bridge of her nose.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

And I wouldn't exactly call it a roman nose, at first glance that's what it looks like, but she still has a straight face, just a raised bridge, like the Roeburn line. So that is probably why a lot of does still place very high, it's not a true roman nose.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Ok, it looks like she might just be a throwback to the Roeburn line, a lot of those does had that same muzzle. For some reason, most of their does had that same head or a completely straight face, no dish at all, not sure where it came from but some of the dam lines had it bred in stronger than others, they still placed well though. As she matures, she will probably get a dip between her forehead and the start of the bridge of her nose.


That is very interesting, as the 1st doe is a Roeburn daughter. I have four PB Roeburn daughters (from the same Roeburn buck as in Kate's pedigree) and the other three not pictured have very nice faces, as do their offsring.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I dont see enough of a nose there to even worry about. You just wont hear a judge say nice breed character


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

TDG-Farms said:


> I dont see enough of a nose there to even worry about. You just wont hear a judge say nice breed character


Sweet.  Since I found the answer I was looking for, I'm going to go ahead a break the link to the pedigree. I hope that is okay.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I think it is from Legacy, his immediate family have faces quite similar to the kid of yours. Do your other Roeburn does have close to the same pedigree?
And like Dave save, she just doesn't have that french dish we look for in the breed, not a huge issue as the face isn't where the milk comes from


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I think it is from Legacy, his immediate family have faces quite similar to the kid of yours. Do your other Roeburn does have close to the same pedigree?


My other does are Legacy daghters, but they are from another herd (all PB), so the oher side of the pedigree is quite different. I have bred American kids out of almost all of them and they all came out with beautiful faces, still waiting n them to kid this spring to see what the udders and milk are like. I have two that I am not fond of in personality, but they are the first freshening daughters out of the really nice buck I bought, so I want to see what the udders look like before I sell them.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I used to have a doe named Hosanna, and she had a lower jaw that was noticeably longer than her upper pallet, in other words her teeth stuck out like a sore thumb because of her monkey mouth, and I was never once faulted for it because it didn't affect her ability to maintain condition. So a raised bridge shouldn't be any worse.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

FarmerInaDress said:


> My other does are Legacy daughters, but they are from another herd (all PB), so the other side of the pedigree is quite different. I have bred American kids out of almost all of them and they all came out with beautiful faces, still waiting on them to kid this spring to see what the udders and milk are like. I have two that I am not fond of in personality, but they are the first freshening daughters out of the really nice buck I bought, so I want to see what the udders look like before I sell them.


Might have been a strong enough dam line to dilute it then? :shrug:


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Might have been a strong enough dam line to dilute it then? :shrug:


I would appear so. We'll see in Gen 2.0!


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> And I wouldn't exactly call it a roman nose, at first glance that's what it looks like, but she still has a straight face, just a raised bridge, like the Roeburn line. So that is probably why a lot of does still place very high, it's not a true roman nose.


I was looking at their site and I see what you mean. I can picture how Kate's face may perhaps mature. Some of her lines seem to be much slower to mature than my PB girls. She's at a very gawky, awkward stage right now.


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