# 4 Months with a Buck...Bred?



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

Hi there, I am a brand-new goat raiser. Two weeks ago, I purchased a pair of goats from two different individuals. After I paid for the second goat (a yearling Nubian), the breeder said, "Oh, it isn't important, but you should know that she's been with a buck full time since December. Don't worry, there's no chance she's bred. She's too small to get pregnant and even if she weren't, Nubians are seasonal breeders." I took her home anyway.

Later, I asked them for more information on the buck, and they got a bit testy with me. They told me I'm crazy if I think my little doe is bred. They did share the information I asked for, at least.

I admit it, I'm new, and they keep telling me they have 30 years' experience in raising goats. But it seems reasonable to me to think that my 70lb, year-old doe _could_ be bred.

I am aware of Biotracking as an option and I do plan to take advantage of it once I've had her here for 30 days.

She isn't "showing" at all, but I understand that she may not (this would be her first pregnancy).

What do you think? Are her breeders crazy? Am I? Is it wrong to be hopeful? It sure would save a lot of trouble as I haven't found anyone who is willing to share their buck with me. Also. I like milk. :laugh:


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

I dont think she would considering that is not the nubians season. But these are goats..... Goats= crazy! So she was exposed to the buck Dec-March? 


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

There's a 99 percent chance that she's pregnant. Goats can come in heat as early as two months and can sometimes cycle year round, especially if a buck is present.
Can you post a pic of her rear end with tail up and her udder area? We can try to pooch test her, to see if she looks pregnant.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Yeah can we have a rear pic? There is a good chance she is bred, but who knows… 


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

*Rear Photos*

I just came in from outside. It is tricky holding her tail up while trying to snap a photo with my free hand!

Yes, she was locked in a stall with a buck and her mother from December to mid March.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

It really makes me mad when so called "breeders" give mis-information to new goat owners. Any doe, kept with a buck can get pregnant. 
The so called breeder should have said that there was a chance the doe was bred, but possibly unlikely. There, that covers all the bases. 

Sometimes, people that have been in a business for so long have lost sight of why they are in the business in the first place. And they have forgotten 
what it is like to be a new person in the world of goats. 

Ok, off my soap box. She looks pregnant to my very unprofessional eye. 

This is a wonderful site to get good answers to your questions. No one belittles or intentionally gives the wrong information to new folks. 
Everyone is very helpful and considerate. I am sure you will get good answers to most of your questions!


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

Thank-you for your response. I am a little irritated with the breeder. I spoke with him for a LONG time before going to get this girl. I drove a long way to pick her up (on my husband's birthday, no less) and once I got there, I found that many of the things they told me were untrue. Their farm wasn't that clean. I think the little girl is out of good lines, but I think the breeder just bought nice show-stock so his son could "win" at 4-H shows. They got grumpy when I didn't want to pay then and there for a fall breeding, but after I saw the place, I didn't want to come back. They didn't mention she'd been with the buck until after I decided not to pay for that breeding too! I probably shouldn't have purchased her, but I am happy with her. If she's bred, that would be great too. Unfortunately, I have no idea how far along she is. And that is a little frustrating.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

If the buck was with her since December, she's be three months pregnant at the most. I'm thinkin only one-two months preggo, as there's no udder development.


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

Thank-you for your estimate. I should add that I can see her nipples and they are maybe an inch long right now. I have another female goat and she is definitely not bred. I can not see her udder or nipples at all.

I don't know if that means anything or not. I've only owned goats for two weeks. But I'm learning fast!


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

canyontrailgoats said:


> If the buck was with her since December, she's be three months pregnant at the most. I'm thinkin only one-two months preggo, as there's no udder development.


Here is a picture of her teats and udder area. Does this change your estimate at all?


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Wripley said:


> Here is a picture of her teats and udder area. Does this change your estimate at all?


Not really. Can we see a full bodied pic of the doe?

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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

She is not a virgin doe. She has been covered. Give it 2 weeks and then get us another pooch picture with her tail in natural upward position. She does look like an early bred Nubian to me.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Of course she has been covered! The buck would have made sure of that… but don't they have to be in heat for that to work? 


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

This photo was taken the day I brought her home. About 10 days ago. 

I also took some top-down photos of her. She isn't showing at all, and probably could even use a little more weight. In my opinion.

The vulva photo was taken about 10 days ago too. Before I knew such a photo could be handy.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

She has lice, hence the hair rubbed off her shoulders and she needs copper. Can I ask where you are so that I can help you with your mineral needs?


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

I live in Indiana. I don't think she has lice. I spend a lot of time brushing her and I think I'd notice. She has a darker under coat on her shoulders so when her hair is messed up or ruffled, it shows through. Her coat is uniformly thick everywhere with no thin patches or flaking. Currently she gets Manna Pro goat mineral 1/4 oz per day, 1 cup of Dumor goat feed, and free-choice hay (replaced twice daily). Fresh water, always.

Edit: She also gets free-choice baking soda. And here is a different picture of her back which doesn't look so much like she has thin and patchy hair on the shoulders. I freely admit the first one DOES look that way.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If it is not lice then it is an effect of minerals as well. We see it a lot here where we are copper, selenium, and iodine deficient. Really everywhere in the US is because of our overworked farm fields. 
Loose minerals should be offered free choice eat all times. They will eat a bunch at times and not so much other times. Okay, I will go find other Indiana members to help


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

goathiker said:


> If it is not lice then it is an effect of minerals as well. We see it a lot here where we are copper, selenium, and iodine deficient. Really everywhere in the US is because of our overworked farm fields.
> Loose minerals should be offered free choice eat all times. They will eat a bunch at times and not so much other times. Okay, I will go find other Indiana members to help


Thank-you Goathiker.

I wouldn't be surprised if she was mineral deficient. I know she doesn't have lice. But she came from a place that I just didn't feel "good" about. I am afraid to give free-choice minerals because I've heard the goats can make themselves sick. I'm pretty nervous about the diet already. I will say that she eats the minerals like they're candy. Right out of my cupped hands.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Yes loose goats minerals should always be offered free choice. I would also dust her with Python Dust just to be on the safe side with the lice. Do you have access to ADM or Kalmbach goat feeds? Because Dumor is not known ifor being a good quality feed. ADM and Kalmbach are good feeds… 


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No. She won't make herself sick on minerals. She really does need them free choice.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

You could give her a copper bolus as well, and a BO-SE injection. That should help with the mineral defincies 


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

And she will not get sick on free choice minerals, she ~*NEEDS~* those minerals free choice. She will only eat what she needs. She will not overeat in them 


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

Thank you. Is copper bolus-ing safe if she IS pregnant? Is the BO-SE injection ok? Is it ok if I do all this stuff at once? 

Like I said, I'm a new goat owner.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Cade, you're in IL. Why don't you run down for him what you do with your goats.


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

fishin816 said:


> Yes loose goats minerals should always be offered free choice. I would also dust her with Python Dust just to be on the safe side with the lice. Do you have access to ADM or Kalmbach goat feeds? Because Dumor is not known ifor being a good quality feed. ADM and Kalmbach are good feeds&#8230;
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


I have never heard of those goat feeds. I know none of those are carried at the three farm stores in town (Orscheln, Rural King, and Tractor Supply). I haven't yet been to our local co-op. So maybe I should check there. Are there any other good feeds? I have heard Kent is good. But that was from her breeder.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

goathiker said:


> Cade, you're in IL. Why don't you run down for him what you do with your goats.


Heading out to feed&#8230; be right back in to help with this

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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

The copper is safe to give now, but the BO-SE cannot be given to the does until day 140. 

So here is what I do.

Does~ Free choice Cargill Right Now ONYX cow minerals, free choice clover mix hay, salt block twice daily, Kalmbach All natural meat and milk pellet, milking does get alfalfa pellets and alfalfa hay twice daily. Copper bolus1-2 times per year, BO-SE at day 140 of pregancy.

Bucks~ Free choice manna pro minerals, free choice clover mix hay, kalmbach meat and milk pellet, and alfalfa pellets after rut, copper bolus 1-2 per year, BO-SE before breeding season and after breeding season. 


This works good for me, and i would highly recommend the onyx minerals and kalmbach feeds. 


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Wripley said:


> I have never heard of those goat feeds. I know none of those are carried at the three farm stores in town (Orscheln, Rural King, and Tractor Supply). I haven't yet been to our local co-op. So maybe I should check there. Are there any other good feeds? I have heard Kent is good. But that was from her breeder.


Kent is GREAT if you can find it. TSC, RK or orschlens wont have the goat feeds I listed. Your co-op might though.

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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

I went out today and checked my doe's coat carefully. I maintain that she doesn't have lice, but that patch on her shoulder consists of shorter bristlier hair. It is uniformly thick and there is no dry skin or flakes. Do you think that's a copper issue? We do have some pretty iron-heavy well water.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Wripley said:


> I went out today and checked my doe's coat carefully. I maintain that she doesn't have lice, but that patch on her shoulder consists of shorter bristlier hair. It is uniformly thick and there is no dry skin or flakes. Do you think that's a copper issue? We do have some pretty iron-heavy well water.


Then she is probably copper deprived. I would give her a bolus

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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

That's what I needed to know! Thanks. I just read horror stories about giving copper when it isn't needed and scared myself.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Iron binds copper. So if your water has heavy iron, you will need to copper bolus more frequently.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Wow... Yeah, the buck really doesn't care how small the doe is...my Bella got preggo at 4.5 mo.. Yep, too young but Mr. Charlie got out;(

If he was in with her since Dec, chances are she is bred, however severe mineral especially copper and selenium deficiencies might hinder the breeding process, just an FYI... 

Best of luck with your new girl;-)


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Wait wait wait… back up. The "breeder" said that she was too SMALL to have been bred????? The buck does not care how small she is… he is gonna breed her. That was uneducated on the breeders part. She is most likely bred.…


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Id call the breeder and let them know pretty much an entire forum of full of goat owners with a combined knowledge of something like 1000 years said they are wrong. If this is the advice they are giving you, then dont even bother to ask for information from them again. And any information you got from that breeder, throw it out the window.

Most goats during the winter months have lice. Its just what happens. During warmer months the lice load drops as they lose their under coats (the thick hair you have mentioned). Lice thrive in the thicker undercoat. Id use some phython dust and give her a dusting anyways. Its their under coat and shouldnt be combed as its ment to be thick messy. It not only keeps them warm but the messy oily mess also helps keep out moisture. So let them lose it on their own. Which leads into the minerals.

A goat lacking in loose minerals will most likely hold onto their undercoat long after they dont need it. This can also be caused by a heavy worm load. If wormed in the spring, you will often notice they really start to shed their undercoat soon after. But as for loose minerals, and as mentioned, they will not get sick. They can if they are so deprived and over do it at the start. A high salt content in a mineral mix can also do some bad things to them if they are over eating it. So for the first week or so, everyday present each one with a half cup or so. If after the first week they are still devouring it, extend to 2 weeks. This will give their body time to absorb the minerals at an even pace and as they do so will be less likely to eat to much when offered free choice.

And then in a few weeks, do the preg test and you will know where you stand.


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

TDG-Farms said:


> Id call the breeder and let them know pretty much an entire forum of full of goat owners with a combined knowledge of something like 1000 years said they are wrong. If this is the advice they are giving you, then dont even bother to ask for information from them again. And any information you got from that breeder, throw it out the window.
> 
> Most goats during the winter months have lice. Its just what happens. During warmer months the lice load drops as they lose their under coats (the thick hair you have mentioned). Lice thrive in the thicker undercoat. Id use some phython dust and give her a dusting anyways. Its their under coat and shouldnt be combed as its ment to be thick messy. It not only keeps them warm but the messy oily mess also helps keep out moisture. So let them lose it on their own. Which leads into the minerals.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the good information. I feel comfortable with your advice to increase mineral over time. I am definitely inclined to go slowly with my goats since I am a new goat owner and because one of them may be pregnant.

The breeder said they felt like she was too small to be cycling and since it was not breeding season, they put her in a stall with her mother and their junior herdsire. They were so nice and informational on the phone, but they got crabby when I refused to pay in advance for a breeding this fall. They are definitely not going to answer anymore questions for me. I also offended them by asking if the junior herdsire was also my doe's father. But I felt I ought to know. I was very nice about it.


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## 4-HGoatGirl (Jul 5, 2013)

Give us another pic soon please and watch/feel her udder. My opinion- she's pregnant and the breeders are ignorant or dumped this goat on you on purpose. I feed my goats Purina Goat Chow goat feed. It is a 'sweet feed'. It has a bit of everything- molasses, pellet, crushed corn. My goats die for it and I myself have been tempted to try it.:roll: I offer a 'Billy Block' for my does, too. Billy Block is the brand, so you can give it to does, too. (Tractor Supply carries it). I offer that and baking soda, my goats have a lot of wild things to forage in like bark, branches, dirt, etc. I think you should switch your feed, though. I tried to feed DuMor to my goats and they refused to eat it! Just make sure you regulate minerals like Copper, etc. A head of time, start thinking about preparing for a birth and what to do with kids. Please keep us updated and share pics when you can.:grouphug:


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

You know, it may very well be that they feed/supplement their animals (on the poor side) and they indeed dont ever see an young kids come into heat or have bucklings able to breed that early. Much the same way a doe who isnt getting what it needs to survive can abort her kids to save herself, it may be that the younger kids are just not developing at a normal pace because they are not getting what they need to mature on time. Where most of us would see kids being able to be breed at 2-4 months with bucks active as young as 2-3 months, they dont. But I would suspect it would be pretty obvious on the over all condition of their animals if that were the case.


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

TDG-Farms said:


> You know, it may very well be that they feed/supplement their animals (on the poor side) and they indeed dont ever see an young kids come into heat or have bucklings able to breed that early. Much the same way a doe who isnt getting what it needs to survive can abort her kids to save herself, it may be that the younger kids are just not developing at a normal pace because they are not getting what they need to mature on time. Where most of us would see kids being able to be breed at 2-4 months with bucks active as young as 2-3 months, they dont. But I would suspect it would be pretty obvious on the over all condition of their animals if that were the case.


That is something I hadn't thought of. They did show me that they were feeding Kent, but I don't know anything about what else they do to feed/supplement their goats. None of the animals looked to be in obviously bad shape. I don't have a trained eye for goats, but the animals were mostly clean and nobody looked to be starving. Eyes were clear, that sort of thing. My doe's momma was being milked and had an impressive udder to show for it. But then again, I didn't know that the dark patch on my doe's coat was caused by a mineral deficiency. All I know is that I'll never go back there again and I'll have to do my best with the information I was given. But even that isn't anything to count on. On the phone, the guy assured me that my doe was a very-tame bottle baby. Once I got there, I was dismayed at how any human interaction caused her to completely FREAK OUT, screaming, flailing. She was nuts, they lost control over her and she was tearing through the barn climbing on the tractor and slamming into things. Her mother was loose with her and that didn't help calm her at all. I asked about that and the wife said "Oh no, we don't bottle feed our goats and we haven't handled them all winter." I shouldn't have bought her but thankfully she turned out to be easy to win over. She's easy to handle now and seems to like people. She did not seem to know what grass was, though. She had to watch my other goat to figure out that it was tasty stuff. The first time I walked her under a tree, she looked up and panicked at seeing the branches over us.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Aw, that's sad. I'm glad she doing better. I don't know how anyone can not play with their baby goats. They are so lovable and sweet.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

goathiker said:


> Aw, that's sad. I'm glad she doing better. I don't know how anyone can not play with their baby goats. They are so lovable and sweet.


I agree with that.. Even though it's almost time for my kid crop to go, I'm going to miss them, but I'm ready for the little ones to leave... They are fun, I have to play with mine daily, or I'm going to hear about it later with constant baaaaabaaaabaaa


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> I agree with that.. Even though it's almost time for my kid crop to go, I'm going to miss them, but I'm ready for the little ones to leave... They are fun, I have to play with mine daily, or I'm going to hear about it later with constant baaaaabaaaabaaa


I have never spent any time around a goat kid, but I can say I'm surprised at how happy they are with people around. Even my formerly skiddish doe will cry as I walk back to the house. Their sociability was a surprise for me!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

My first experience with a goat (other then at the fair and its not cool for a young teenager to stop and pet the goats) was at someones house. They had 2 back yard goats that were very well kept. We walked up to a 4 foot tall chain link fence and when the goat (2 year old Nubian doe) saw us, she trotted over and lightly jumped up on the fence. Just like a dog would. And much like a dog, every time you pet this goat, its tail would wag. I was a goat person from that moment on. And from the first day I took my first goat home to finishing up chores tonight, I love to spend time with all of them. Kids, yearlings, does, packers... and well, the bucks not so much but Ill give em a scratch with a stick now and then. Even after more then 15 years, I cant stand the buck smell.  Its just not a good day if I dont get some petting or scratching in. Each one is as similar and different as a snow flake.


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## Christman2 (Jul 22, 2013)

Not necessarily...we have are still new, always learning, but have had several kiddings now. Been raising for 5 years now. We still guess up until the last few weeks with some of them. One doe recently didn't bag up until days before giving birth. You're doing right by asking for tips on the Goat Spot! I love this place as a wealth of information and help! Thanks for posting, as we learn so much from these types of questions and reading all of the great responses!


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## CanucksStar-17 (May 3, 2013)

How old is she?


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## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

CanucksStar-17 said:


> How old is she?


She is almost exactly a year old. Weighs about 70 lbs.


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