# Am I being reasonable? (milk sales)



## Tennessee (Oct 4, 2016)

I'm looking to be profitable with my Nigerian Dwarf does. I'm starting with 3 bottle babies and will breed all of them when they are ready. I'm looking to make a decent amount of money with milk sales and I think it's achievable but please let me know if I'm missing something here.

Initial budget: (everything is budgeted on the high end)

$1,000 (simple pulse milker)

$500 (shelter+"toys")

I'm also putting up 3,000 board ft. of cedar boards and posts that should be around $7,500 after labor so this takes care of my fencing needs but I'm not counting it towards my goat budget because I'll be putting this fence up regardless of the goats..

Lets say I'm looking at $2,000 for all of my initial NEEDS to give them a sturdy shelter, first few purchases of grain/supplements/hay and a random vet visit for each one.

The budget for 3 bottle babies/doelings will be $1,500-2,000

I'm estimating an average of 2 quarts per day, per goat, milking twice daily. (2 qts x 3 goats = 45 gallons per month) [$15/gallon = about $650/month]

If this is correct, I'll make roughly $7,500-$8,000 annually.

I've also came to the conclusion, based upon other forum members responses, that I should not be spending more than $100/month for upkeep per goat.

So, lets say I'm at $7,000/year gross profit. After subtracting $1,500 (on the high end) for upkeep... I should still be sitting at a minimum of $5,000/year right?

WHAT AM I MISSING!? :scratch: or do other people just exaggerate their financial woes? lol I'd consider $5,000 net profit a success! Of course everything above is dependent upon me selling ALL of my milk


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You won't be getting milk 12 months a year. The amount of milk fluctuates through lactation. Will also depend on the quality of the goats you buy. You will have to buy goats with super milking lines.

You are going to have to put fencing over the boards. The goats will walk right through board fencing.


----------



## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Kids and unplanned medical expenses. Medicines and vaccines. 

Are you going to bottle raise or dam raise? If you bottle raise, what kind of milk will you feed the kids? 

What about a buck? Will you rent a buck, buy a buck, or what?

Meds. You need a good supply of meds. I don't use chemical meds, but on hand I have - blood stop, red cell, probiotics, nutri drench, plus some others. 

Wormer - Sooner or later, you'll deal with parasites. Then there is the expense of wormer, and the drop in milk production.

Do your does have proven genetics backing up producing 1/2 gallon a day? 

I don't think a milker is absolutely necessary for three does. I milk my three does by hand just fine, and two of those are standards.


----------



## Tennessee (Oct 4, 2016)

ksalvagno said:


> You won't be getting milk 12 months a year. The amount of milk fluctuates through lactation. Will also depend on the quality of the goats you buy. You will have to buy goats with super milking lines.
> 
> You are going to have to put fencing over the boards. The goats will walk right through board fencing.


I was thinking 2 qts. per doe would be a good balanced amount and would be taking fluctuation of milk from month to month into consideration. I thought I might be able to get more than 2 qts. some months and less during other times because I do plan on getting the best stock I can for the $1,500-$2,000 budget. If I need to drop down to 2 does for better lines I might do it.

Also, I am planning on putting woven wire in behind the boards


----------



## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I don't mean to rain on your ideas - I love your enthusiasm! I don't see a market for $15 per gallon goat milk unless you go with the "organic" farmer's market. You WILL have to make sure you are within federal and state guidelines for milk sales for human consumption, unless you are planning to do soaps, etc. 
Frankly, you will be hard pressed to break even, especially your first few years. Visit some goat dairys that are already operating, they usually have a break even point for profit margin that can help you decide if you want to pursue this. Also go to as many workshops as you can (adga, extension services, etc). They are great providers of information.

Most of us enjoy our goats first and foremost, getting profitable usually requires years of work and refining your operation to your market. 

Good luck - let us know how it goes!


----------



## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I just had a $450 vet bill for a rough delivery. Breeding will cost me about $75 per doe. And oh, grain adds up - it really does. And so does hay. Oy! And bedding and minerals and copper and BoSe and all the different things you will try if you have a doe who is needy (I have one). 

Also, do you already have a built in market? Do you have a dairy license? Are you even allowed to sell raw milk in TN? I've had milk available this year, but no market because I'm not licensed. Without an inspection and license (which, in Maine, involves a separate room for dairy storage and processing) I cannot advertise, sell to stores, sell at farmer's markets or put out a farm sign with the word "Milk" on it. In some states you can't legally sell raw milk. Period. I can here, but only to folks who approach me and buy it from me here on the farm. And technically I am supposed to label it "Not for human consumption". When I have been able to sell it, buyers want all my milk one week and then don't need any the next. This makes it difficult to plan!

Almost everyone I know who owns dairy goats - even those who are licensed - in Maine also has a full time job (or jobs) (or retirement income) in addition to their dairy sales to keep themselves afloat.

None of this is to discourage you. Just to let you know that it will take alot of work and more money than you might realize and probably more time than you're thinking before you start to turn a profit...

However, you seem to have a great deal of optimism and spunk. So maybe you'll move faster than some of us. And any way it goes, you'll have goats - which is pretty awesome. Love your goaties and pray for wisdom to prosper and keep us posted! We'll be here rooting for you!


----------



## Tennessee (Oct 4, 2016)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Kids and unplanned medical expenses. Medicines and vaccines.
> 
> Are you going to bottle raise or dam raise? If you bottle raise, what kind of milk will you feed the kids?
> 
> ...


 I plan on bottle raising but I admittedly haven't fully thought that one through. I don't want to do any formula or substitute for milk. I will definitely be renting a buck or AI if it's an amazing deal I can't pass up.. I don't want any bucks on my property unless they are birthed by my does and they will be sold or given away immediately.

I also agree with no synthetic chemicals being used. I'm going to try to stay away from as many vaccines as possible. Blood stop and other quick acting things are always needed just in case but that stuff isn't going to be a monthly expense and any funds I'm able to carry over from the previous month will all be saved in the same account and will be used in the emergencies where a vet might be needed and medication is needed.

A milker is definitely not a NEED for anyone when you really think about it. It's all about time management and how much you feel your time is worth. If I can empty 1 doe in 5 minutes that saves me a lot of time, stress, milk quality (milking directly in a jar submerged in ice), and also equates to less grain and other treats to get them to "be good" on the milk stand. Over time I think turns out to be a good investment and if things go well I'll be expanding my herd size exponentially.


----------



## Tennessee (Oct 4, 2016)

goatblessings said:


> I don't mean to rain on your ideas - I love your enthusiasm! I don't see a market for $15 per gallon goat milk unless you go with the "organic" farmer's market. You WILL have to make sure you are within federal and state guidelines for milk sales for human consumption, unless you are planning to do soaps, etc.
> Frankly, you will be hard pressed to break even, especially your first few years. Visit some goat dairys that are already operating, they usually have a break even point for profit margin that can help you decide if you want to pursue this. Also go to as many workshops as you can (adga, extension services, etc). They are great providers of information.
> 
> Most of us enjoy our goats first and foremost, getting profitable usually requires years of work and refining your operation to your market.
> ...


 My goat milk will be considered organic. I'm not jumping through the hurdles that the USDA wants to slam on people though.. I'll have a herd share and if I don't sell shares I'll just deliver the milk and charge them a flat fee of $15 for delivery. :razz:

Also, I'll take the "hard way" when it comes to challenging these people.. as I feel most people need to when it comes down to this over reaching regulation. How else will it ever be resolved? I also have a couple of lady's needing milk for soap and would be the only person in the area willing to sell organic raw goats milk.. especially raw.



groovyoldlady said:


> I just had a $450 vet bill for a rough delivery. Breeding will cost me about $75 per doe. And oh, grain adds up - it really does. And so does hay. Oy! And bedding and minerals and copper and BoSe and all the different things you will try if you have a doe who is needy (I have one).
> 
> Also, do you already have a built in market? Do you have a dairy license? Are you even allowed to sell raw milk in TN? I've had milk available this year, but no market because I'm not licensed. Without an inspection and license (which, in Maine, involves a separate room for dairy storage and processing) I cannot advertise, sell to stores, sell at farmer's markets or put out a farm sign with the word "Milk" on it. In some states you can't legally sell raw milk. Period. I can here, but only to folks who approach me and buy it from me here on the farm. And technically I am supposed to label it "Not for human consumption". When I have been able to sell it, buyers want all my milk one week and then don't need any the next. This makes it difficult to plan!
> 
> ...


Sorry about that vet bill. I hope everything went ok! That's definitely a set back but how much has that happened to you? I'm looking for average estimates and for those crazy moments when you do have to call a vet I actually dropped my potential profit down $2,000 annually.. that would also cover the costs of the breeding which is only needed once a year also. Good quality hay is very cheap here and I'm probably going to be getting mixed grass hay for supplementing at no cost if my grandfather can part with a couple bales. They will have over 10 acres of pasture so they will not need too much supplementing anyways.

I guess everyone's main concerns are staying in compliance with regulations, licenses, etc. but that is not a major concern to me. The next worry everyone has with their herds, I guess would be the unexpected. That's something I definitely worry about and have budgeted for. The only thing I haven't budgeted for is the constant replacement of bedding and cost to heat their housing.. I think my margin of error in my budget would also cover that however...

Please keep the replies coming because I just picked up 3 things I didn't factor in! I'm going to keep my net profit at $5,000 with all of this factored in though. I have a very big margin of error to work with. I'm curious to see how much fluctuation in milk there is from month to month. I think that will be my biggest downfall with my numbers.. you can't really quantify that variable... It looks good on paper until you're out there milking :tears:

I HATE NOT BEING ABLE TO FACTOR THINGS! lol


----------



## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

You don't have to heat their housing, it just has to be dry and free of drafts. 

Another thing to consider is milking through/breeding each doe every other year. You would have milk year round, even in the winter, though it would be less. And you would have less kids to deal with.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

$15 is not unreasonable...mine is $12 a gallon and I have 2 families each driving an hour and half to get it..its becoming quite a demand...I could easily get more..


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Sorry if I missed it, but how long have you had goats? How much experience do you have?


----------



## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Have you considered using full-sized does instead? I tend to think that if you want a proper dairy with enough milk year-round to sell, then you probably should consider going with true dairy goats. Really well-bred Nigerians give a decent amount of milk for their size, but as they say, "Size matters." I know a lot of people who own Nigies but most only get two quarts/day for a very short time. The majority seem to very quickly cut back to one quart/day or less, and they very often dry up after only 6-7 months of lactation. 

It's important to keep in mind that Nigies are not only a very small breed with consequently smaller capacity, but they are also relatively new to the dairy scene. Because of this, finding the really outstanding producers in the Nigie breed is going to be a lot harder than with the long-established dairy lines you find in the full-sized breeds. A so-so backyard dairy goat from any full-sized breed will nearly always produce more milk for a longer lactation than an outstanding Nigie. I tend to think of Nigies as "pets with benefits." 

That said, one thing the Nigerians do very well is to increase your butterfat content. If you milked two full-sized goats and mixed in the milk from one Nigie it would make your milk a lot creamier. If you're quite determined to stick with smaller-sized goats, you might consider the Nigie crosses such as mini LaManchas, mini Nibians, or mini Alpines. These may give you more production than pure Nigies but in a smaller package than the full-sized breeds. Good luck!


----------



## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

My suggestions are to keep an eye out for free stuff or second hand things for sale, to save on expenses where you can. I have 3 plastic igloo doghouses that my goats use constantly for napping in, climbing on, & jumping from one to the next. 2 were free by the road & the other was $10 used. I also got 2 very large wooden doghouses for free. I turned one into a hay feeder & the other stores misc. stuff. Craigslist has a "FREE" section, & you can see if there is a Freecycle website in your area. Our dump also has a place where usable things are set aside. I even got most fencing materials used; some even free.

Feed is by far my biggest expense. In 5 years we only had one vet visit. It was early on, & was something we could easily have taken care of ourselves if we hadn't been so new to goats. A goat has only been sick once since that time, & with advice from The Goat Spot we were able to take care of it ourselves.

I had no luck selling milk when we had dairy goats. We can advertise it here, but have to say "for animal feeding only." It helps if you know lots of people, & I really don't.


I agree, 2 top quality does are better than 3 of lower quality. Within a year you'll have kids, hopefully a doeling or 2 to keep. It seems that bucklings are more common than doelings (or maybe I'm just unlucky!) so you also need to have a plan for them. Our Alpines were very pretty, if nothing else, & we used really good bucks who had pretty markings. We banded the bucklings ourselves & managed to sell them all as pets, weed eaters or anything but dinner. I think it was because they had such pretty markings, & we'd spent a bit of time taming them. We got more money for them that way than if we'd sent them to the auction. (Which I personally feel has got to be a pretty bad experience for an animal & would never do anyway.)

One thing I read once has stuck with me: It costs just as much to feed an unregistered goat as a registered one, but with papers the kids sell for so much more that you can make up for the extra you paid for registered does.

Good luck with your endeavor-it sounds so exciting!!


----------



## Harriet_and_Hens (Apr 26, 2015)

I have VERY little experience in goats; however, this year I purchased 3 Nigerian dwarf goats, so the expenses are still fresh in my mind..

We built our own shelter for just over $1,000. That was just for lumber - we put it up ourselves. It's nothing fancy, has 3 windows, a man door and a goat door. I wanted a "milk parlor" which is really just a 4 foot room with a partition from the main goat area. I personally LOVE that we put this room in because I can keep all their supplies in there without having to walk to the house constantly. The entire barn, including the milk room, is 16x8 - not huge by any standard but I wouldn't want to go much smaller. I probably spent around $500 on supplies: feed dishes, water buckets, basic first aid/ meds, vitamins (our area is crappy for copper).

The other thing I wanted to talk about was milk. I only milk 1 of the 3 goats (2 are babies) and (supposedly) she comes from nice milk lines and I get 1 CUP OF MILK PER DAY :| I only milk in the morning, and the kids nurse during the day, but still - let me tell you it sucks! I plan to dry her off and then breed her again in January and her daughter come May and hopefully her capacity will increase a little. I'm not trying to make a profit, I just like the milk and want to make cheese and stuff for myself (although I have day dreamed about a fancy flea market stand), but it's hard to save milk for that many days to make anything. 

I think next year I am going to get 2 full sized goats, so that I can hopefully ensure a bigger production. I'm not sure how set you are on the mini's, but maybe just look into a couple of different full sized breeds. Or maybe even some mini cross breeds (mini nubian, etc)

Again, I am SO not the person to take advise from because the way I'm going it will be years until I break even, but I just want to let you know that sometimes mini's aren't all they're cracked up to be. They sure are cute and friendly though! And they're DARN fun the spend time with!! Good luck


----------



## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> ...The way I'm going it will be years until I break even, but I just want to let you know that sometimes mini's aren't all they're cracked up to be. They sure are cute and friendly though! And they're DARN fun the spend time with!!


I hear ya! Because I love flashy goats, a friend of mine kept badgering me to buy one of her colorful Nigies. But you know what? If I'm going to go to all that work of milking, filtering, washing and sterilizing equipment, etc. then by golly I want a goat that can put it in the bucket! I have a couple of so-so Alpine/Nubian girls that are backyard bred. I don't have a lot of money in them and they aren't huge producers, but I still get over 2 quarts/day from each after I cut them back to my once/day milk schedule. If I milk twice/day I get 3-5 quarts from each--and that's year-round. I've got one girl who has been in milk for 18 months and is currently giving over 2 quarts/day on one milking. For a full-sized dairy goat that's nothing to brag about, but none of my friends who own Nigies can milk enough through the winter to be worth the bother, so they dry them up for a significant part of the year.

(No knocks to anyone here--I'm not accusing you), but unfortunately, I think Nigerians tend to be "oversold" by enthusiastic breeders who are so enamored with their own breed that they tend to exaggerate their abilities. Unsuspecting first-time goat owners believe that these tiny, cute creatures will produce enough milk for all their home milk drinking and cheese-making dreams, only to find out that there's barely enough milk for the breakfast cereal and morning coffee. If you look at the grand champion lineup at a dairy show and see the top placed Nigerian Dwarf standing next to her full-sized competitors, you can't help but think "toy breed."

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with toy breeds (I own several wethers just because they're fun), but for someone who is going into business, you need to seriously consider whether a toy breed will be able to adequately fulfill your purpose. You don't want to spend a ton of money on goats only to discover that they can't live up to your expectations, especially since you will almost certainly have become emotionally attached to them by that point.


----------



## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> A milker is definitely not a NEED for anyone when you really think about it. It's all about time management and how much you feel your time is worth. If I can empty 1 doe in 5 minutes that saves me a lot of time, stress, milk quality (milking directly in a jar submerged in ice), and also equates to less grain and other treats to get them to "be good" on the milk stand.


Unless you have arthritis, I'd say try hand milking first. For me, hand milking three goats is much faster and easier than doing it by machine. I can milk a 2-quart udder out by hand in five minutes or so and I'm not what you would call a fast milker. Cleaning and sterilizing the lines on a machine is a way bigger headache for me than milking by hand. However, I also never milk more than 2-3 goats at a time. If I had more I'd probably reconsider.

I expect my girls to behave themselves on the stanchion after they run out of grain. They quickly learn that fussing over a lack of food will not get them more food, nor will it get them off the stand quicker (in fact, quite the opposite!). Some of them fling the empty feed bucket across the room, but as long as they keep their feet still I don't care.

Finally, I've discovered that milk quality does not depend so much on rapid cooling but on diet, minerals, and general health of the goat. I've left milk in the bucket at room temperature for as long as 45 minutes without it making any difference to the flavor (not that I recommend leaving your milk sitting out in the pail all morning, but sometimes stuff happens). If you have to instantly chill your milk in order for it to taste good, look for issues with your goat's diet and mineral balance. When my milk got a slightly bitter edge this summer, I resolved it by putting out a cobalt block. The milk was sweet within a week. There's nothing wrong with rapid-cooling your milk, but it should not be necessary to improve the flavor. Might save you a little extra work.


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm not a dairy person at all... but just in my personal experience: every single dairy goat acquaintance I have in our area (many!) that has begun with Nigerian Dwarves and then gotten serious about goat milk-based products has consequently added full size dairy goats to their herd.


----------



## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I have 2 Nigies and 1 LaMancha Milker. My LaMancha is no champion, but she's no slacker either. She gives us over a gallon a day. The Nigerians are both from quite decent lines, but both together give me 1/2 what my bigger girl does. However, the Nigerian milk is superior in taste and texture. The creaminess is amazing! 

As far as vet bills, the big ones come here and there. I am VERY blessed to have a vet's office where 2 of the vets are quite knowledgable about goats, sheep and alpacas. I am also exceedingly blessed because they are so wonderfully willing to teach me how to do procedures myself (lancing abcesses and drawing blood come to mind). And they are quite willing to do free phone consults or give me prescriptions if needed without an office visit.

I hope your vet(s) are that helpful! They've saved me hundreds of dollars by not making me come in with the does unless it was absolutely necessary.


----------



## Tennessee (Oct 4, 2016)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> You don't have to heat their housing, it just has to be dry and free of drafts.
> 
> Another thing to consider is milking through/breeding each doe every other year. You would have milk year round, even in the winter, though it would be less. And you would have less kids to deal with.


 I was thinking about a small heat lamp covered by a couple of cinder blocks just for some ambient heat for them. Our winters aren't bad but it can get pretty cold. I also haven't thought about staggering them but that's not a bad idea.



happybleats said:


> $15 is not unreasonable...mine is $12 a gallon and I have 2 families each driving an hour and half to get it..its becoming quite a demand...I could easily get more..


 It sells close to $15/gallon in my local walmart and it's pasteurized and tastes terrible! I know I can get a lot more for the creaminess and sweetness of a Nigerian, especially raw and super fresh!



KW Farms said:


> Sorry if I missed it, but how long have you had goats? How much experience do you have?


 I don't have any goats at the moment and the only experience I have is getting bit on the finger by a billy goat when I was 7. :smile:

I've been a lurker on here for a couple of years and on some facebook groups as well. I don't know much but that's why I'm starting small!



Damfino said:


> Have you considered using full-sized does instead? I tend to think that if you want a proper dairy with enough milk year-round to sell, then you probably should consider going with true dairy goats. Really well-bred Nigerians give a decent amount of milk for their size, but as they say, "Size matters." I know a lot of people who own Nigies but most only get two quarts/day for a very short time. The majority seem to very quickly cut back to one quart/day or less, and they very often dry up after only 6-7 months of lactation.
> 
> It's important to keep in mind that Nigies are not only a very small breed with consequently smaller capacity, but they are also relatively new to the dairy scene. Because of this, finding the really outstanding producers in the Nigie breed is going to be a lot harder than with the long-established dairy lines you find in the full-sized breeds. A so-so backyard dairy goat from any full-sized breed will nearly always produce more milk for a longer lactation than an outstanding Nigie. I tend to think of Nigies as "pets with benefits."
> 
> That said, one thing the Nigerians do very well is to increase your butterfat content. If you milked two full-sized goats and mixed in the milk from one Nigie it would make your milk a lot creamier. If you're quite determined to stick with smaller-sized goats, you might consider the Nigie crosses such as mini LaManchas, mini Nibians, or mini Alpines. These may give you more production than pure Nigies but in a smaller package than the full-sized breeds. Good luck!


 I've thought heavily about "mixing" but I'm still not sure about it.. I don't think it would be the end of the world and the customer might not know the difference, but I've had goat milk on many occasions.. some Nubian, some Togg, and Alpine.. I've admittedly never had Nigerian Dwarf milk, but the butterfat and sweetness has sold me. I like thicker milk and if it's sweeter than any of the above then I know that's what I'm shooting for lol.. I might have just had some bad experiences with people who didn't watch out for onions in the pasture or left the milk out too long but I'm really looking into Nigerians mainly for the texture and sweetness. The second reason is to get my fiancé involved, and of course she loves the small "cute" factor they have.

I'm very quality oriented and my end goal is to have a small store in the downtown area of my hometown. It's a very historic and old town in Tennessee and we have a largely devoted court square "revival" I guess you could call it. I'd like to have a specialty shop for "foodies".. from infused salts, oils, and vinegars to charcuterie and fresh culinary and medicinal mushrooms to spices, teas, coffee, cheeses, and so on.. My end goal is to be able to produce the majority of it myself and have the highest standard of quality possible. There are too many "gimmicky" and "imported" places that are there just to fill a niche.. kind of like the Mexican restaurants that are the EXACT SAME in every small town. It's a half hearted effort at squeezing a buck out of people that unfortunately have no other choice.

Alright my rant is over lol.. but I do agree I may run into problems with not enough milk. I guess I'm more willing to take that chance and have the specific milk I want.

I'll reply to the rest of you guys within the next hour! Headed home from work!


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Nigie milk is indeed amazing...my girls milk 1/2 gallon a milking at peek..but I paid dearly for them...I paid for producers with easy to milk udder and teats. they didn't seem to have as long milking calendar as my large breeds..but my kid help milk and that sometime needs to be factored in ha. you can also consider a mini breed....we have a first generation Mini Saanen..basically she is half nigerian and half saanen..her milk is sweet and fat heavy like a nigie..but we get more out of her. its a compromise. Just a thought : ) 
good luck on your venture!


----------



## Tennessee (Oct 4, 2016)

catharina said:


> My suggestions are to keep an eye out for free stuff or second hand things for sale, to save on expenses where you can. I have 3 plastic igloo doghouses that my goats use constantly for napping in, climbing on, & jumping from one to the next. 2 were free by the road & the other was $10 used. I also got 2 very large wooden doghouses for free. I turned one into a hay feeder & the other stores misc. stuff. Craigslist has a "FREE" section, & you can see if there is a Freecycle website in your area. Our dump also has a place where usable things are set aside. I even got most fencing materials used; some even free.
> 
> Feed is by far my biggest expense. In 5 years we only had one vet visit. It was early on, & was something we could easily have taken care of ourselves if we hadn't been so new to goats. A goat has only been sick once since that time, & with advice from The Goat Spot we were able to take care of it ourselves.
> 
> ...


You sound like my granddad  he is all about getting it for cheap! We went to a trade day a couple of towns over the other day and he haggled over a nickle for a wrench that he'll probably never use. Then again.. he reminded me he could sell it on craigslist for $1 with a big grin.. I'm sure it'll go in the knee high pile of wrenches he has in his outbuilding.. LOL..

As far as housing I plan on building a little lean-to up against my milking and supply building.. I have all of the wood ready to make their shelter, I just need some tin and my granddad might also have some of that! lol

As far as toys go I'm getting some of the cable company spindles for free and I've got unlimited access to old rough cut lumber. The possibilities are endless and I'm sure pinterest will keep my fiance on the edge of her seat with ideas..

5 years with only 1 vet visit with that many goats is awesome. I guess I was just worrying too much. I'm in the "goat vet corner" group on facebook and I guess it gave me some anxiety but I just have to reassure myself usually the only reason people are on there is when they have a problem.. I also agree registering is the only way to go.. we are keeping our own mini registry within our family of all animals and plants that we breed to and cultivate so that hopefully everything can be passed down to our children and grandchildren in tact and they can have the option to continue those lines and record keeping. I believe that's very important.. and to think what my great great great grandchild would say reading back on what we did in this moment is an amazing thing to think about..



Harriet_and_Hens said:


> I have VERY little experience in goats; however, this year I purchased 3 Nigerian dwarf goats, so the expenses are still fresh in my mind..
> 
> We built our own shelter for just over $1,000. That was just for lumber - we put it up ourselves. It's nothing fancy, has 3 windows, a man door and a goat door. I wanted a "milk parlor" which is really just a 4 foot room with a partition from the main goat area. I personally LOVE that we put this room in because I can keep all their supplies in there without having to walk to the house constantly. The entire barn, including the milk room, is 16x8 - not huge by any standard but I wouldn't want to go much smaller. I probably spent around $500 on supplies: feed dishes, water buckets, basic first aid/ meds, vitamins (our area is crappy for copper).
> 
> ...


I'm lucky to have an already existing structure that I'm going to be building onto and I pretty much have all the materials ready to go. That's a major blessing.

I kind of touched on "milk mixing" above but I almost feel like I'm cheating the customer in some way. It's totally irrelevant because milk is milk and nobody's going to be testing butterfat content at breakfast but I guess I just like purity and the fact I do want a breeding program down the line.. It just makes sense for me to stick with N.D.'s at least for now.. maybe when we get more room I'll reconsider it..

If you go into it with the mindset of self sufficiency and cheese making specifically 1 cup a day isn't the worst thing ever. Just look at it this way.. you get to make a TON of small batch cheeses and experiment without wasting too much milk! :grin:



Damfino said:


> I hear ya! Because I love flashy goats, a friend of mine kept badgering me to buy one of her colorful Nigies. But you know what? If I'm going to go to all that work of milking, filtering, washing and sterilizing equipment, etc. then by golly I want a goat that can put it in the bucket! I have a couple of so-so Alpine/Nubian girls that are backyard bred. I don't have a lot of money in them and they aren't huge producers, but I still get over 2 quarts/day from each after I cut them back to my once/day milk schedule. If I milk twice/day I get 3-5 quarts from each--and that's year-round. I've got one girl who has been in milk for 18 months and is currently giving over 2 quarts/day on one milking. For a full-sized dairy goat that's nothing to brag about, but none of my friends who own Nigies can milk enough through the winter to be worth the bother, so they dry them up for a significant part of the year.
> 
> (No knocks to anyone here--I'm not accusing you), but unfortunately, I think Nigerians tend to be "oversold" by enthusiastic breeders who are so enamored with their own breed that they tend to exaggerate their abilities. Unsuspecting first-time goat owners believe that these tiny, cute creatures will produce enough milk for all their home milk drinking and cheese-making dreams, only to find out that there's barely enough milk for the breakfast cereal and morning coffee. If you look at the grand champion lineup at a dairy show and see the top placed Nigerian Dwarf standing next to her full-sized competitors, you can't help but think "toy breed."
> 
> There is nothing whatsoever wrong with toy breeds (I own several wethers just because they're fun), but for someone who is going into business, you need to seriously consider whether a toy breed will be able to adequately fulfill your purpose. You don't want to spend a ton of money on goats only to discover that they can't live up to your expectations, especially since you will almost certainly have become emotionally attached to them by that point.


I've also came to the conclusion that ND's are kind of the "in thing" right now.. I don't know if it's a fad due to their size or if it's truly a response to their milk. I mean, I don't think anyone can deny the butterfat on these award winners are just unheard of in most dairy animals.. and for their compact size it's like you're receiving some type of golden nectar of the gods that you REALLY aren't supposed to have too much of.. ya know? lol alright, I'm done drinking for the night..

But seriously, I think my main reason is just the ability to transform into so many different things flawlessly from cheeses and yogurts to ice cream and butter. There are some goats that can't pull off some things without a little add-ins for flavor or creaminess.. Saanens come to mind for me. Maybe it's just my experience or what I've been told and read that's pushing me into the ND corner..

I do know what you mean by "toy breed" but I think it's unfair for them.. they produce something that's hard to achieve with other breeds and for people with smaller plots of land, like me, I think they're more suitable.. 3 acres (1.5 usable) is a lot for some, but for full sized goats you've really got to watch yourself and not overgraze and then if you are making sure you aren't overgrazing then you start running into hay and grain costs going up.. You don't want to take a mastiff rabbit hunting and you don't want a Beagle chasing down a bear.

I'm hoping with my first 2 girls that I can make that decision. If I decide not to stay with ND's I can automatically stop my breeding and keep those girls to live out their days while acquiring some stock that will get the job done. I wouldn't have to get rid of them. I do agree I'll know more once I get them. Right now, it's just trial and error to find out if it's the right fit.



Damfino said:


> Unless you have arthritis, I'd say try hand milking first. For me, hand milking three goats is much faster and easier than doing it by machine. I can milk a 2-quart udder out by hand in five minutes or so and I'm not what you would call a fast milker. Cleaning and sterilizing the lines on a machine is a way bigger headache for me than milking by hand. However, I also never milk more than 2-3 goats at a time. If I had more I'd probably reconsider.
> 
> I expect my girls to behave themselves on the stanchion after they run out of grain. They quickly learn that fussing over a lack of food will not get them more food, nor will it get them off the stand quicker (in fact, quite the opposite!). Some of them fling the empty feed bucket across the room, but as long as they keep their feet still I don't care.
> 
> Finally, I've discovered that milk quality does not depend so much on rapid cooling but on diet, minerals, and general health of the goat. I've left milk in the bucket at room temperature for as long as 45 minutes without it making any difference to the flavor (not that I recommend leaving your milk sitting out in the pail all morning, but sometimes stuff happens). If you have to instantly chill your milk in order for it to taste good, look for issues with your goat's diet and mineral balance. When my milk got a slightly bitter edge this summer, I resolved it by putting out a cobalt block. The milk was sweet within a week. There's nothing wrong with rapid-cooling your milk, but it should not be necessary to improve the flavor. Might save you a little extra work.


The main reason I'm wanting to milk directly on ice is because of the enzymes. I juice a lot of vegetables and fruit and it is honestly night and day if you use a fast centrifugal blade juicer versus a slow auger style masticating juicer. I'm sure people will call me crazy but without a doubt the nutrient profile has change.. but the TASTE. I can't even drink stuff out of a centrifugal juicer.. The air is basically vacuumed into the hole you put your produce in and the oxidizing starts in and enzymes start going to work.. I'm sure milk is the same way and I think it's best illustrated when making cheese or yogurt. The only thing we can do to make that change happen is change the temperature slightly and create a small humidity difference and boom, a totally different product is born.. not to mention the small changes that can made along the way to manipulate that new product into a slightly different product. That went longer than what I expected! lol.. but while I 100% agree on diet being the most important, I put milking and storing temperature right there with it at a close second.



SalteyLove said:


> I'm not a dairy person at all... but just in my personal experience: every single dairy goat acquaintance I have in our area (many!) that has begun with Nigerian Dwarves and then gotten serious about goat milk-based products has consequently added full size dairy goats to their herd.


hmm, that's interesting! were they using milk for any other items or just selling the milk itself?



groovyoldlady said:


> I have 2 Nigies and 1 LaMancha Milker. My LaMancha is no champion, but she's no slacker either. She gives us over a gallon a day. The Nigerians are both from quite decent lines, but both together give me 1/2 what my bigger girl does. However, the Nigerian milk is superior in taste and texture. The creaminess is amazing!
> 
> As far as vet bills, the big ones come here and there. I am VERY blessed to have a vet's office where 2 of the vets are quite knowledgable about goats, sheep and alpacas. I am also exceedingly blessed because they are so wonderfully willing to teach me how to do procedures myself (lancing abcesses and drawing blood come to mind). And they are quite willing to do free phone consults or give me prescriptions if needed without an office visit.
> 
> I hope your vet(s) are that helpful! They've saved me hundreds of dollars by not making me come in with the does unless it was absolutely necessary.


If you had the opportunity to have all ND's and get the same milk production as your La Mancha would you consider it? If you would, I think that answers the "quality" question.. do I risk quantity (which equates to profits) to have something I'm really going after? and is the quality of the ND milk REALLY that substantial?

:sigh:

I wish I had a good office around me... I have one lady I take my dogs to and she is amazing. BUT. she's very "pharmaceutically inclined" lol..... she's a pill for every ill type vet.. I wish there were people willing to take the least damaging approach FIRST.. unfortunately I think the internet will have to be my teacher for minor procedures.

Thanks for the info! I love talking with all of you guys! I might even take some videos this weekend so I can give everyone a better picture of what I'm working with and what my plans are!


----------



## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Another thing you might should consider is Nubians. They also have high butterfat/rich milk, just not quite so much as the NDs, at least from what I've heard and read. 

I agree with Saltey when it comes to starting with Nigerians and then getting serious about milk production and moving on to a larger breed.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm one of those people who changed from Nigerians to LaManchas. I can keep fewer goats. I needed 6 Nigerians to get the same amount of milk as 2 LaManchas. Teat size. While I had no problem milking the Nigerians, it is so much nicer to milk larger teats. My Nigerians just wouldn't milk through for a longer lactation. My one LaMancha has been milking since March 2014 and the plan is to milk her to fall 2017. With the Nigerians, I had to stay with milking twice a day. With the LaManchas I can go to once a day milking and still get the amount of milk I need. So while I loved the Nigerians, the LaManchas are filling my needs better. The milk is just as sweet but there is less butterfat which I don't mind.


----------



## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

ND's are adorable little buttheads. haha 

Their milk is AMAZING but so is Nubian milk. The BEST milk I've ever had is from a nd/nubian half half girl. (My Myra!)

$15/gallon is no big deal, I charge $20 but I pay a lot lot more for feed/hay than you could imagine and I lose money on my goats. Probably lose $10,000+ each year on my goats after selling kids and milk. So they are more my pets than anything.

As far as the milkers go, I can hand milk a goat out WAY faster now than using a milker. Not the case when I first started milking but hand milking was hard and gave me a good reason to get faster haha.

If it were me, and I know you're not me, but if I was looking to get two nice milking does, I would spend the $$$$ and get two polled mini nubians that already know each other and are already in milk. That way you can taste the milk, see for yourself what the capacity is, and get them bred down the road.

If I had to start alllll over again, thats likely what I would do.


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I agree...larger goats will give you more milk for less work. Also, Nubian goat milk is awesomely creamy


----------



## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I keep Nubians, I love the milk, it has highest butterfat content of the standard breeds. The taste of your milk will depend a lot on the health of your animals. I hand milk up to six does at a time, I never have a problem keeping my milk fresh. 
If you are into making cheese, you usually need at least a gallon if not more for a batch, depending on the type of cheese, you can't just small batch cheese.

If you are going for the farmer's market route or a store you will be required to show your dairy license, and your testing per your state requirements. That goes for cheese too.

Remember that you have to dry up your does at least 2 months prior to kidding, and if you go with standard breeds, they are seasonal breeders. You should not breed does more than once per year.

I would get a couple and see how things go. If you have never raised livestock it is different in the "doing" than how it looks on paper. Goats also have quite a steep learning curve compared to other species. Just make sure you LOVE the goats and are willing to lose $$ just because you like having them. Any profit is a bonus, and quite frankly takes time, a market plan and experience. Please expect to lose money at least for your first few years. Just my :2cents:


----------



## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I don't want to be a buzz kill but raising goats and selling milk is not as easy as some would think it is, depending on how your state regulates the sale of raw milk.

Warm, moist areas have to deal with heavy worm loads. You will have to keep a close eye on your goats to treat for worms and cocci when needed. Failure to do so will give you sickly or dead goats. Some people do well with herbal worm meds, others lose goats because it does not work. Either way, it can be an expense to keep worms to a minimum, depending on your area. A wormy doe will produce smaller amounts of poor tasting milk.

I hand milk between 8-10 standard does a day, with the potential to have more. Using a milk machine requires some experience so that you don't over or under milk the doe, opening her up to mastitis. Machine milking is labor intensive, more so than milking by hand. You have to clean and sanitize the machine, milk claws and hose, making sure to really get it clean. You will need to do an acid wash of some type (white vinegar works well) to stop milk stone from forming. You need to adjust the pressure or you can damage the does sensitize udder tissue. All I need to do is wash the milk pail and funnel, rinse with bleach and water and let it dry. That takes a matter of only a couple of minutes. Once a week I soak the pail in hot vinegar and water.

First fresheners generally don't start producing large amounts, so I'm not really sure expecting a Nigerian FF to produce 2 qts a day is reasonable. Genetics can be funny. You can buy top of the line kids, whose dam produces 3 qts a day and whose sires dam did the same only to end up with a doe who barely produces 1 qt. I have twin does. One doe has a gorgeous udder. Her sister has a horrible udder with small teats. Both have good production, however, the one with the poor udder probably will not produce for as long a life as her sister with the correct udder.

If you are selling milk for human consumption, you will need to test for diseases that are transferable to humans- Johnnes, CL, TB, Scrapie. You can be held liable if someone gets ill from drinking the milk you sold them.

AI is a wonderful tool, you can get some terrific bloodlines that would otherwise be impossible for you to find locally, however, it is not as easy to AI a doe as it is a cow. Does are a bit trickier. Do you have someone locally who can teach you how to do it, or who can AI your does for you? The equipment is expensive initially and you have to make sure to refill the semen tank every 2-3 months. Some does will conceive easily using AI, others will not.

Will you have a buck of equal or great quality near by to breed your does to, if you do not own your own buck?

If selling milk was a profitable venture, more people would be doing it. Laws are prohibiting most people from being able to do it. You can buck the system all you want, but if you break the law, you will end up paying in the end. Depending on your state laws, they can execute search warrants and seize your goats, milking supplies and freeze your farm accounts. It's happened up here and in other states already. The government, both state and federal, has no sense of humor about stuff like that.

I used to have Niges that I milked. I've also had Nubians, Lamanchas, Oberhasli, Saanen, Alpine, a Togg/Alpine cross and crosses of all the above. I've found most of their milk to be sweet and creamy. Diet and health plays as big part in the taste and butter fat % as genetics.

I do wish you luck in your adventure. I hope it works out for you.


----------



## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Tennessee said:


> My goat milk will be considered organic. I'm not jumping through the hurdles that the USDA wants to slam on people though.. I'll have a herd share and if I don't sell shares I'll just deliver the milk and charge them a flat fee of $15 for delivery. :
> 
> I guess everyone's main concerns are staying in compliance with regulations, licenses, etc. but that is not a major concern to me.


If you're going to sell in shops you'll have to follow regulations.

I know certain states can sell with farm shares or direct from farm without a license...

The license may not be worth the return for you. Especially as you start out. But make sure you protect yourself legally


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Just saying ... I have saanens and I have no issue making delicious cheese, butter, yoghurt, ice cream, butter etc from their milk, and there's lots of it


----------



## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

A couple of thoughts from a dedicated Nigerian Dwarf fan. We started out with 3 just like your plan 7 years ago. I think we have 30 now including bucks.

The 2 quarts per day in your formula is 4lbs. 4lbs for 305 days is 1220 lbs.
That's more than just a "quality" animal. That is a doe that will be in the top 10 in production in any given year.

If you want more realistic numbers, go to the ADGA handbook under production testing. A Nigerian to make the Advanced Registry and get the *M designation has to produce between 620 to 690 lbs in 305 days depending upon their age. 
My does are on test now and my best one is probably going to make 950lbs.

Breeding.
You said you don't want a buck on your property you will lease or do AI.

Good luck leasing a buck that's going to give you the type of offspring to keep up a high level of production. I paid $800 for a buck this summer whose dam and paternal grand dam were both 1200 lb milkers. No way I would let anyone lease him.

If you are going to do AI I didn't see anything in your formula about purchasing your semen tank and semen.
I paid $250 for 5 straws this weekend at the NC State Fair from a breeder from OH.


----------



## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I am new to ND, I've been building my little herd for a year now. I would agree with IHEARTGOATS. I have purchased goats from some very nice dairy lines, and they aren't producing as you're hoping for your animals. Those would be Superior Genetics does, and I'd sure like a herd full of them, but I don't know anyone who does. I do have a doe I'm picking up in a few days from Oklahoma whose dam and maternal grand dam are both SG does. I am excited to get her.


----------



## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

I have Nubians and Guernseys, they both have rich creamy milk and are pretty good producers. I have one FF Guernsey this year give me a gallon a day, excited for next year. My Nubians average almost 1 1/2 gallons a day at peak production, dropping off to a gallon when they are on more pasture and my one Alpine is almost 2 gallons a day. She rocks! Lots to consider as far as upkeep. When you start trimming feet you will wish you didn't have to have so many goats to milk. Trust me, I started out small, and now with the husbands meat herd and the boys I am looking at 20 head so 80 feet that need trimmed every 4 months at least, plus that is 20 goats to make sure get copper and worming and all the other little chores that are a part of goats. Then with kidding season that is a LOT of kids to treat for cocci prevention every three weeks, lots of animals to check FAMACHA scores, run fecals on etc.


----------

