# Newborns "knuckling over" - help?



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Hi...One of my Nubians kidded today -- totally normal kidding, totally unassisted (yippee!), and three seeming healthy kids! All good so far! I went to the kidding stall and found the kids as she was cleaning #3. Air temperature today has been low to mid-40's. She is in a wholly enclosed stall with plenty of bedding, hay and water. 

When I found she had kidded, I immediately helped to dry and warm the kids. #1 was quickly up, trying to nurse. The other two were looking a bit dazed (chilled, I imagine), so in addition to drying them well, I put a non-electric heating pad under their bedding and gave them a little warm molasses water by syringe. Also gave a tiny bit of selenium SQ. I watched them pretty closely for about 2 hours and they seemed to be doing well. Not nursing like I'd really like, but OK. 

Now -- about 4 hours post delivery, #2 and #3 are "knuckling over". It's not contracted tendons...the joints are very flexible, they're just not supporting a straight plane when they stand. #3 is worse...she can stand ok, but when she tries to walk her front legs tend to knuckle over at the pasterns. #2 has one hind leg that's trying to turn under at the pastern. I've been trying to research this but get lots of varying viewpoints. Some say they'll die...period. Some say it's a nutritional deficiency...most likely either selenium or A&D.

Can anyone help me with this? Should I bring them inside for warmth and just plan to bottle feed them? I have selenium...could give more if needed. No A&D, but could run to town for some if needed. Plan to give B-complex as soon as I post this. 

Thank you!!!!


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Congratulations on the kids! How much selenium have you given them? That should definitely help with the knuckling over, I believe...


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

top_goat said:


> Hi...One of my Nubians kidded today -- totally normal kidding, totally unassisted (yippee!), and three seeming healthy kids! All good so far! I went to the kidding stall and found the kids as she was cleaning #3. Air temperature today has been low to mid-40's. She is in a wholly enclosed stall with plenty of bedding, hay and water.
> 
> When I found she had kidded, I immediately helped to dry and warm the kids. #1 was quickly up, trying to nurse. The other two were looking a bit dazed (chilled, I imagine), so in addition to drying them well, I put a non-electric heating pad under their bedding and gave them a little warm molasses water by syringe. Also gave a tiny bit of selenium SQ. I watched them pretty closely for about 2 hours and they seemed to be doing well. Not nursing like I'd really like, but OK.
> 
> ...


OH...I just discovered I do have cod liver oil. One is gelcaps (1250 IUs of A; 130 IU's of D3). The other is "Garden of Life" brand liquid (4500 IU's of A; 450 IUs of D with "natural lemon essence"). Would either of these be ok to use providing the consensus is that the problem is an A&D deficiency? Or should I make a run to TSC? Thanks!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Goat_Scout said:


> Congratulations on the kids! How much selenium have you given them? That should definitely help with the knuckling over, I believe...


Thanks, Goat_Scout! I use MuSe, which is dosed at 1/5 BoSe. So I gave them .1 (1 tenth) of a cc. We definitely are selenium deficient here...it's always a battle with my kidding does & kids, so I automatically give 1/10th cc to newborns.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It is selenium deficiency but the cod liver oil won't hurt. I'd also give half a cc of B complex orally.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Thank you Karen. I just gave 1/2 cc b Complex (but SQ 'cause I hadn't seen your post). Re: the selenium...would you recommend another 1/10 cc? And how much of the cod liver oil (and which?) Thanks!!!!! 

I've seen contracted tendons, but never this. Should I consider splinting them...especially on #2...she's bad.


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

I'm not sure on those last two questions... but do you have pictures?


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Black one is #3. 1st shot is about 1 hr old...no apparent problem with front legs.








#3 now...








#2 now...note left rear left is trying to turn under.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I had one or two with the back leg turned over, and a several with the front legs buckled like that but not quite as extreme. I do not supplement, just make sure they are up and moving and drinking from mom. They have all corrected themselves just fine.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Thank you for the encouragement, PippasCubby! I hope and pray for such an outcome! Part of my concern is that this doe is not mine...she was here for breeding/boarding. Sigh...and both the affected kids are doelings. Double sigh...


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

I should think three inside the doe was pretty cramped and not much moving. I'd just do what you're doing, get the.m nursing and let them"fluff"a bit?


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Thank you, Einhorn! It's so easy to "panic" when our loved ones are suffering...human or four-leggers! Thanks for your kind words!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You would have to search for the amount of cod liver oil. You could do a vitamin E. Snip off the end and give all the oil in the capsule.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Ah, yes. Them not being yours adds that frustrating factor. If the did not get better on their own, I would have then thought of adding selenium. Since you already have that covered, I'd give them a couple days and see how they do.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Thank you all... After sitting with them for some time I concluded that #3 isn't nursing effectively because she can't stand. I brought her in, warmed her pretty good and "syringed" an ounce of colostrum. Then I splinted the front legs and she is currently practicing standing and walking... building muscle strength and coordination she should have built hours ago! I plan to keep her inside tonite and regroup in the morning. #2 was nursing well earlier, so I'm not as concerned for her surviving the night.


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## TCOLVIN (Sep 22, 2014)

You my friend should have been a vet. Good luck.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

We had several babies with bent legs last spring. In fact, one of our was much worse! I'm sure it was selenium deficiency caused by me feeding too much alfalfa to my pregnant does last winter. I gave selenium gel and splinted the two that couldn't stand properly. I used toilet paper tubes wrapped around their legs and bandaged in place. One of our babies had the problem where he was knuckling over at the ankles and the other baby couldn't straighten his knees at all. We thought for sure it would take several days to correct the baby with the bent knees, but all it took was a few hours one afternoon in splints and he was fine on his own after that. It's amazing how quickly they corrected with a little help! Your kids will be fine. Just check their little toes under the bandages and make sure there's enough circulation. It's easy to over-tighten vetwrap bandages on tiny babies. I did not leave mine bandaged overnight. They didn't need it. Good luck!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If you gave Mu-se, I wouldn't give anymore selenium. Mu-se is much stronger than Bo-se.


Bracing the legs is what I do, if I have cases like that. Be sure though, it isn't too tight cutting off circulation. It will do more harm than good. 

Cute babies.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Thanks for the encouragement, ya'll! She got her suck reflex back about midnite (PTL!!!) and took about 4 oz from a bottle. She's much stronger...loves her little "leg warmers". Temps are much milder today, so she's back out with mom...seems to be nursing adequately and very active. I plan to remove the splints later this afternoon to check the joint strength. 

As for the MuSe vs BoSe -- valuable caution, Pam. My vet told me that MuSe is 5x stronger than BoSe, so any BoSe dose has to be cut by 5. My vet simply prefers MuSe, so with this caution he provided it to me for my goats. It always scares folks when they hear I'm using MuSe, but I'm always careful to honor that dose conversion! It's even written on the bottle with a sharpie! LOL Hugs to you all...this community is the best!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

GOOD NEWS!!! I took the splints off this afternoon and her pasterns held true! I was so excited. She walked and tried a couple of hops. Really cool. :7up:

Thanks to each of you who responded for your encouragement and counsel. Blessings...


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Great! It's very satisfying to see them hop for the first time on legs they can trust to hold them.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

That is awesome and you are very welcome. .

Glad you are taking a precaution with Mu-se. My vet prescribed Mu-Se for adults and told me to use the Bo-se for kids. 
Glad you figured out how to dose it for newborns.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

I purchase the 1cc diabetic syringes specifically for dosing the MuSe. Even a heavy adult doe gets less than 1cc, so they work for everybody and I can easily dose even 1/2 of a tenth of a cc for the babies. I'm so thrilled this little gal is doing so well -- and for the TGS community for walking thru it with me!. All three babies are doing well (but I'm getting ready to post a question on mom). The next test for the kids will be tomorrow nite. Brutal cold and rain coming our way. (Sorry ya'll in the NE and upper midwest...we don't usually get this stuff!) Ya'll stay warm & dry!!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Glad they are doing well.

Good to know about the smaller syringes to dose babies. Where would someone get those?

Hope the weather isn't going to be really bad for you.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I'm kinda late to this thread but, glad they're doing well!!!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

syringes -- you can get them at just about any pharmacy, generally no Rx needed. I find WalMart and Sams generally have the best prices...can be purchased individually or boxes of 100. There are 2 types...those with removable needles (in various lengths) and those with fixed needles. I like the removable needles. Just go in and see what they have...request the needle gauge and length you prefer. I've found folks very accommodating and they're very affordable. Blessings!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thanks.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

I use these syringes
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/luer-lock-syringes-3-ml-box-of-100


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yeah, I use those 3 cc syringes too.
Just ordered those.

But we are talking about the 1 cc ones for measuring Mu-se injection for kids.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

PBS sells the 1 cc syringes. They are great for babies. They are in .1 cc (point one cc) so you can be exact on dosage.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I also love the 1cc syringes from PBS Animal Health. Makes it so easy to do the tiny dosages.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

I get those too.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

That's the beauty of 1cc (as you said GoatsRock -- marked in .1cc increments) ...makes dosing extremely tiny volumes so easy. Don't know about the PBS animal syringes, but the human insulin syringes have 5 marks between each .1 mark...that's REALLY precise, tiny dosing!:happygoat:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How much would a 8 to 10 lb newborn boer get of Mu-Se? And a say 6 to 7 lb kid?


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

toth boer goats said:


> How much would a 8 to 10 lb newborn boer get of Mu-Se? And a say 6 to 7 lb kid?


I was taught that newborns - regardless of weight -- can get 1/2 cc of *BoSe*. So that would make the "generic" dose of MuSe 1/10th (.1) cc I generally give the full .1 cc, though sometimes I cut it back to half of 1/10th cc. Just depends on how alert and on-track the kid is.

Since the standard BoSe dose is 1cc/40#, that makes the standard MuSe dose 1cc/200#. Very small!!!  Hope this helps!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thanks


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