# Need help with some breeding choices



## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

I know breeding season is a long way off but I want to go ahead and make my breeding plans now...
I have 2 Junior bucks and 2 doelings who are half sisters (same sire) and I just don't know who to breed the girls to...
#1 is Sweet Home Alabama. 








Dam-BBD Dolly's Della

























#2 Tokyo Rose

























Dam- Merry Oaks Oreo

















Sire of them both.









Buck #1 Sweet Flowers Taxman.
























His dam-Sweet Flowers Lantana









Buck #2 Merry Oaks Poppy's Helter Skelter
I need to get a better picture of him, this is his dam.

















He has the same sire as the doelings.

Which buckling would you breed to which doe and why? I want to use both this year.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

First off, you have some GORGEOUS Alpines there, Margaret! 

So, I'll try help a wee bit  But hopefully someone more experienced the the dairy end of things will pop in and give some advice as well.

So, Alabama's Dam's udder isn't the greatest, so for that reason I would breed her to Taxman. Since his dam has smaller teats that are more evenly placed on her udder.
BUT, she also lacks in brisket, as does Taxman.
They are both very well matched in terms of topline, rump, neck, shoulder & hindquarter assembly, leg angle, leg and pastern strength, wither sharpness, chest floor, and overall dairy character. Taxman also has really nice width.
I think Taxman would improve in the udder area, and brisket, well, the kids would still lack that. And in everything else they'd blend nicely.

BTW, what's with Taxman's throat?


Rose is a very clean, angular, very dairy looking girl. I think (I'm comparing her to Poppy) that she would go well with Buck #2.
First of Rose lacks brisket. Poppy has lots. 
Poppy has a little ewe neck. Rose blends really nicely from neck to withers.
Rose could use more depth in barrel. Poppy has really nice depth.
Rose also has a really smooth topline, which Poppy lacks a bit.
Poppy's and Oreo's udders are about the same, so nothing really going there.
I think Rose and Helter Skelter would blend really nicely, because it looks like they would balance each other out real well.


Anyway, hopefully someone else chips in, and either says I'm wrong, or agrees


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I would breed both to Taxman, you don't want to line-inbreed that close at all until you have strong bodies and udder's on your does. 
But you can take Taxmans kids and breed them back to Adonis or Skelter if you want, just keep from direct inbreeding. 
I personally wouldn't use Skelter on anyone he's related to, but for me, his dam doesn't have a solid enough udder for me to keep him for a breeding buck in your herd.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Thank you both
CPK, it's just a milk goiter He was a pig and on his dam 24/7.
Maybe I should sell Skelter...I didn't want to for 2 reasons- (1) I would need a new buckling (2) I've never gotten a kid out of Poppy decent enough to keep, she gives me mostly bucks, and she's 8 so I wanted to keep a kid out of her. The
young doe I have of her's freshened with a not great udder and it was really disappointing...
I suppose I could buy one next year, to use on Taxman and Adonis's daughters.

I had thought it would be fine though bc I bred Adonis to his half sister and got a really nice kid from the breeding.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Okay, I figured it was 

I agree with Lacie...Taxman is a really nice buck, plus his dam has good udder.
But other things to consider is temperaments, milk yields, mothering skills, etc. Things that go beyond physical conformation. 

And, don't keep what you're not truly happy and pleased with...especially with bucks


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

I really do love Skelter's dam, she's looking really nice this year.
She also peaked at 16 lbs as a 6 & 7 year old.

And mothering skills?
I HATE dam raised kids so I kind of want the opposite:lol:
Kid rejection skills would be nice:lol:


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Wow, that's a lot of milk!

Why do you hate dam raised kids? I like it when a dam loves raising kids and I don't have to do anything! :lol:


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Weeeelllll....that's a long list:lol: I'll tell you some other time:lol:


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I agree with Taxman. And for the record, I HATE bottle kids! Give me a slightly stand offish dam raised kid over an obnoxious bottle kid any day!


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

where do you find standoffish dam raised kids? all my kids come running when they see me regardless of how they got their milk. lol


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

margaret said:


> Weeeelllll....that's a long list:lol: I'll tell you some other time:lol:


I have time! :lol: 'sides, I want some really good reasons bottle babies are good...as far as I know, they're annoying, I dislike bottle feeding them, they make nosy, potentially aggressive bucks and poor mothers  IMO


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Aggressive bucks? Ha! Obnoxious? Ha!
Let's see, dam raising is great if you like, shy kids who don't give a flip about people; are obsessed with their dams and that's all they live for, getting to their milk; If you- don't care about CAE; Don't want milk to drink; like having yearling kids that put their stupid heads through the fence to nurse; like having to put them far, far away from their dams for months to get them to stop stealing milk;like spending evry minute of you spare time trying to make the kids friendly; like the idea of taking kids to a show and if somehow they happen to escape from their pens they're immediately with their nicely filled dams sucking them dry so that you can show them with a 2 hr milk fill. If you like that and lots of other lovely(not!)side effects-Then yes! Dam raising is great!
Oh my goodness, after trying to separate dam raised kids, from their dams I will never ever ever dam raise again. As they are born, I pull them straight into a towel and out of the pen, easiest separation ever, no yelling!

And you ever heard of lambar? It's awesome You just fill it up 3 times a day and it's 100 times better than bottle feeding or dam raising. Especially if you have 10-100 kids


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

dreamacresfarm2 said:


> where do you find standoffish dam raised kids? all my kids come running when they see me regardless of how they got their milk. lol


Here! Right Here! Here,at Merry Oaks is where you can find 'standoffish dam raised kids'!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

It has taken me 8 years to get within 5 feet of Clarice, and she was dam raised. Case closed :ROFL: I actually LOVE my bottle kids this year, they don't say a peep, they come when I call them, they are growing fantastically even on only 3x a day feeding, they can be touched anywhere, lead around without protest, and I'm not sick of them. I have a couple that are dam raised this year, and half of them are 10x more obnoxious than any bottle kid you can find! :lol:


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Oh, and standoffish bucks are sometimes better than a very friendly one. Sometimes they are less likely to try and squash you when they're 200+lbs and think they're still babies :lol:
Seneca was spoiled rotten and babied too much as a kid, and he got aggressive when he got older and he attacked people.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Oh, and standoffish bucks are sometimes better than a very friendly one. Sometimes they are less likely to try and squash you when they're 200+lbs and think they're still babies :lol:
> Seneca was spoiled rotten and babied too much as a kid, and he got aggressive when he got older and he attacked people.


Exactly! I had this happen with my first buckling that I kept, actually he was my first kid too, anyway, he was petted, handled, and babied. And when he was around 6 months old, he started getting aggressive. By the time he was 1.5yrs old, I had to be very careful around him.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Yep, friendly bucks are more likely to turn out aggressive than a standoffish one. Same goes for bulls, more deaths are caused by tame bulls than one you didn't bottle feed.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

I will say that if I had non-dairy goats I would dam raise...but it just doesn't work for me with my dairy goats.
Taxman was dam raised though and he turned out nice. My friend handled him and played with him a lot so so he's just a little shy but still friendly enough and I highly doubt he'll turn aggressive. I can see how a bottle baby buck might be aggressive though, and that really wouldn't be funny- a 200 lb buck in rut trying to jump on people!


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Lacie, I was wondering your opinion was on breeding my buck to his half sister.
Both Adonis and Della have the same sire so I was going to breed Della to Taxman this year. Della's twin doelings from this year are turning out really nicely, I'm very pleased with them. I know Taxman's kids won't be quite as nice but I can't decide if I want to linebreed them and get better kids or breed to Taxman and get kids that are nice, just not _as_ nice.
Alabama is one of Della's from this year.


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