# Position on the trail



## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

I have read that the natural position for the dominant goat is at the rear to protect the herd. When we start out on a familiar trail, they all want to lead. If I am not diligent to keep them behind me with the waving of the staff, I have to occasionally stop, or turn an unexpected way to remind them that I am there.

If it is a new trail they hover under foot and are easy to wave behind me.

On the trip back, Diego wants to race back, which draws the others after him. I normally will keep him behind me with the staff, or put him on a lead to keep him under control. 

I often hike alone with all four goats, so getting into a wrestling match with all four would never work. And the trails we are on are heavily traveled and shared with bikes and dogs. Keeping them under tight supervision makes more sense than trying to gather them after they have been spooked off somewhere. 

I suspect that I will be able to give them more leeway when we get into true wilderness areas. 

Is Diego's race home a challenge or just a nuisance? Other then a lead or diligence with the staff to control him, is there a way to train him to stay tighter?

I am tempted to take him out alone to see how he behaves when he doesn't have an audience.


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

Training my goats to stay behind has been the hardest lesson of all. They really don't like it. I think it's because they feel vulnerable to being jumped from behind by a predator. They like having me bring up the rear, that way the feel more secure. Of course they then dawdle along eating stuff alongside the trail, and that gets to be a real hassle. I have had to teach them to stay behind so that when it's really necessary they will do it. That's when we are on a trail with a steep drop off and I can't risk having them push past me and knock me off a cliff. Or if we are with other people who will be annoyed by the goats stopping in front of them and blocking the trail. If they insist on dawdling and getting in the way, I make them stay behind. But if it's not a problem, I let them go ahead. This works fine if there is plenty of room or if we are just bushwhacking out in the desert or woods where there are no trails.

My goats also know when we are heading back to the truck and like to run out ahead. I think they do that because they know their time at the big salad bar is coming to a close and they want to gobble as many goodies a possible. If I am in a situation where that's a problem, like getting close to a trail head where there's a road, cars, dogs, etc. I may have to make them stay behind. But it's always an effort on my part.

I assume that you live in California. Are there really no places you can go where you can get off trails and get away from all the dogs and bikes?


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

I am in SLC UT and am only 20 minutes from National Forest. Consequently, all 1.5 million other people are also only 20 minutes from it.


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

I'm not familiar with that area. But if it's anything like NM, where I live, there should be places where you can park, unload your goats, and just disappear into the hills. When I lived near Albuquerque it was hard to get away from people also. The major trails were used a lot, especially on weekends by mountain bikers and hikers. The bikers weren't a problem because we could hear them coming and just get off the trail and let them go by. But a lot of the hikers had dogs and that caused some problems. So I quit taking my goats on the main trails, especially on weekends. I found some lightly used trails, and areas with no trails at all, and that's where I went with the goats. Now I live in an area where it's the opposite. Almost no people and lots of public land, but few real trails. That's ok, tho, because the goats can go just about anywhere. They don't need trails.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

> I have read that the natural position for the dominant goat is at the rear to protect the herd. When we start out on a familiar trail, they all want to lead. If I am not diligent to keep them behind me with the waving of the staff, I have to occasionally stop, or turn an unexpected way to remind them that I am there.


Every goat is different and the observations made by one person are sometimes quite different from those of the next. While this may be true with wild herds I have found that with most pack goats this varies greatly from goat to goat. Why do some dominate goats bring up the rear and other stay in the front? If I was trying to put a finger on it I would guess it is how they view their relationship with you. Lap goats, even if they are the dominate goat in the herd want to stay next to you. Dominate goats who are more independent will often bring up the rear. Take a look at the picture on the right side of the forum. Thats me in the hoodie with five goats in tow. The dominate goat is in the front and the most subordinate is in the rear. We are coming out after a two day fishing trip and the mosquitoes were horrible. (The reason for the hoodie)



> If it is a new trail they hover under foot and are easy to wave behind me.


I always train newbie goats on narrow trails where it is hard for them to pass. I use a walking stick to keep them behind me. At first I plant it in the ground in front of them so they can't go by me. If they continue I'll wave it threateningly. If they persist in trying to push past I bump them in the chest with it. After that I let the goat determine how hard the thumps need to be. On a wide open trail this is impossible and would be as confusing to the goat as it was frustrating to you. Stick to narrow trails for this training and they will quickly figure out what you want from them. I don't really care how many times they jockey positions behind me but when it comes to leaders, the highlander said it best. "There can be only one!"

Training for this is easiest walking away from the truck. Once you head back they will want to move out quickly and if you are going too slow they will all try to pass. (see below)



> On the trip back, Diego wants to race back, which draws the others after him. I normally will keep him behind me with the staff, or put him on a lead to keep him under control. Is Diego's race home a challenge or just a nuisance? Other then a lead or diligence with the staff to control him, is there a way to train him to stay tighter?


This is usually an excited new goat racing back to the trail head because it knows the way. I don't see it as a challenge to you but it is a worry and an aggravation because there are always a goat or two who will join in and take the whole group thundering ahead. You are right to be concerned. First I would pick up the pace so they aren't as inclined to want to pass you. Second, you should have worked on the hiking order in advance so the goat knows it is supposed to stay behind you. (see above)

I guess I'm stubborn this way. If a goat passes me and heads off down the trail toward the truck I immediately know what is going on and grab a goat or two as they pass by. Now.... me and the goats I have in each hand turn around and walk back up the trail the way we came. That forces the goat who ran ahead to stop, turn around, and run back up the trail after us. If you let "all" the goats run off down the trail you risk a situation where the presence of all its buddies reassures the goat to the point that they leave you in the dust and go all the way out to the truck without you. By grabbing a couple of goats and turning around, you force the goat to accept your leadership and give up his dash for the trail head. Its a mental thing, the goat will probably stop and bawl for a minute or so trying to convince you all to follow him but it will eventually give in and follow. Once it catches up, I'll pick an opportune time when I can reverse direction again and keep the goat behind me. If it tries to pass and run down the trail again, remind it where its place in line is by using the the hiking stick if necessary. If it gets by again!........ I'll turn around and repeat the same steps over and over until it figures out we aren't going one step further with it in the front. You may have to spend an hour doing this over and over before you get back to the truck but it will get better and better until one day you'll suddenly realize that they all stayed behind you the whole way. Eureka!!



> I often hike alone with all four goats, so getting into a wrestling match with all four would never work. And the trails we are on are heavily traveled and shared with bikes and dogs. Keeping them under tight supervision makes more sense than trying to gather them after they have been spooked off somewhere.


I always leave the lead ropes on the goats. I curl it into a loops about 12 inches in diameter and hang it over the front cross buck. If I meet up with dogs or horse riders on the trail I grab the ropes of the two most dominate goats and lead them off the trail. If you and the two most dominate goats go somewhere, the rest will follow.



> I suspect that I will be able to give them more leeway when we get into true wilderness areas.


As jrosss said, it is much nicer not having to worry about anyone else.



> I am tempted to take him out alone to see how he behaves when he doesn't have an audience.


He will be much better. When you are the only security he has he will be stuck to you like glue.


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## Rodrick (Dec 18, 2009)

I only have 3 but my dominant goat is first.
They want me out front and my wife in back. 
Rarely will they let her lead.


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

Rex said:


> ...the mosquitoes were horrible. (The reason for the hoodie)


I picked up a mosquito net for my hat for a buck and a half and camped next to a swamp.

I rubbed the goats with a fabric softener sheet as well as my own clothes.

We didn't even notice the mosquitos except as a dark haze ...


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