# Token



## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Well guys.... All my waiting to get this little guy and he stole my heart from the get go.

This morning he was his happy normal loving self. He came out around 11 this morning to sun bathe as usual. At 12 I noticed he was laying over flat. Ran outside and sure enough he was gone.

I am at a loss for words. I'm stumped. Nothing in his diet had changed. He was fine just a few hours before.

We are on our way now to drop him off for the necropsy.

I'm in just absolute disbelief. This is a nightmare come true.....








Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh Samantha!! Im so sorry!!... 

check temps on everyone...keep watch for silent pneumonia...!! this is how I lost My Nigerian Doe Gillian..


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## Greybird (May 14, 2014)

Oh no .... :mecry:


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I so sorry :hug: How sad :tear:

Definitely check everyone out , temps , eye color everything. Keep a close eye on all until you know the results of the necropsy.


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

Noooooo...oh, I'm so sorry. What a cute little button he was too. Hopefully the necropsy will show what happened, poor little guy. :tear:


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## wwfarm (Jan 27, 2014)

:tears: So sorry. G_d has another angel now.


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Well, I just left the necropsy center. I have to say that the vet I spoke to there will probably be our vet from here on it.

This really sucks. I am so pissed and aggravated right now. I think I am going to just go home and sit with my little girls. They can always cheer me up.


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

My granddaddy will love on him for me. :-(


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Oh Samantha, how tragic! :tears: :hug: What a GORGEOUS boy! I am so sorry.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I know how you feel Samantha...when I found Gillian I was shocked...she hadn't passed yet but I knew she was far beyond saving...it just happens so fast sometimes...leaves you feeling numb...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry.


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Thank you guys. 

I think I'm going drive myself insane before the results get back. 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

:hug: How long did they say it would be?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Just focus on your herd, try not to think about it too much...look for any signs of off behavior...with our out break of silent Pneumonia all we would notice is one not coming for minerals...or standing off a bit...we began taking temps twice a day on everyone..just keep watch until you know for sure...

((HUGS))


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

I forgot to ask how Long it would be. I got into a conversation with the vet and he was asking me everything token had been given sense he was born and his current diet and living conditions. He was explaining to me tons of stuff about worms and toxicity and I just completely forgot to ask. 

It was so hard to drop him off and leave him but I have to know what happened. This was just so out of blue that it is sickening.

The goats he was in the pasture with seem like they are doing great. Temperatures are good and they are bouncing around like their normal gitty selves. 

The breeder doesn't really seem to care I'm kind of stumped with her too. If token is eat up with worms (which the necropsy vet suspects) then we have a huge problem because token had a fecal done the week before I bought him and after I got and nothing showed up. I did see tapeworms in his poop so I treated him for that but didn't have any results from the safeguard.


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

OMG! That is awful. Hope you get an answer


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I am so sorry for you, what a terrible thing to have happen.
I hope, for your sake, you can find out what happened.


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

The vet said off the top of his head he suspected impaction from worms.

I told them everything I was feeding and how much. I even brought in a dozen samples from my pasture he was in. The vet said he highly doubts any type of toxicity from any kind of plants. 

We have token safeguard for 5 day because of tapeworms with no success of expelling any worms. So safeguard is no longer any use to us here. 

Token never was normal IMO as far as being able to eat and his rumen actually looking full. He ate constantly but never looked full. 

Then all the fecals didn't show anything. The vet doing the necropsy said that wasn't unusual at all. He said he has seen tons of goats come in and have clean fecals but they open them up and they are full of barberpole worms. I also talked to him about liver flukes but he said in his 26 years of veterinary medicine and doing necropsy that he has yet to come across a case of liver flukes. He said vets are diagnosing liver fluke but it's actually barberpole worm doing all the killing.


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

The breeder is saying if it is genetic or congenital that she will replace him and depending upon what/if it was worms. 

I "need" a buck but I just don't know if I could do that right now. I live in denial with these types of things and because we couldn't burry him it only makes it worse. 


Why do I get so friggin attached :-(


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Im sorry Samantha :hug::hug::hug:


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Well on a good note everybody else is still doing good. They all came running out of the barn this morning then acted like they were being attacked and ran back in. Goats are hilarious when they get caught out in the rain. 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

It's very odd to talk to a necropsy vet. (He still practices farm animals as well) this sounds screwed up but it's kind of nice to talk to someone that actually knows the cause of death in animals. Kind of makes you a little more aware of what goes on in your area. I'm sure their is a lot of people that don't have necropsys done when something dies but it was still nice to talk to him. 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes. barpole and liverfluke look very much alike under the mic...I have heard and red the opposite that Liver fluke is often misdiagnosed and a goat is treated for barpole worm and dies of liverfluke ?? Also the reason many feel Ivomec is no longer effective is the goat has liver fluke and not barepole,therefore are treating with the wrong wormer.. either way..when either of the two are involved its best to treat for both...
I hope you can find closure....and I hope the breeder does do good by this...I remember him being the one you had to wait for after he was ill?? he may have never recovered fully...


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Yes. He had two flare ups of cocci and then they found barberpole. He was much smaller than his brothers but neither of them had any cocci issues. He also stayed on his mom till he was 3 months old just to give him extra time to grow. 

His breeder has offered to replace him if it was anything genetic or congenital but also if it had to do with severe worm infestation. 

I talked to her for a long time last night. 

What the vet told me is that the barberpole worm is immune to Ivomec. So therefore everyone automatically assumes it's not barberpole but it's live flukes when the Ivomec doesn't work. He also said that barberpole had low to moderate resistance to moxidectin and levimesole (I think I spelled that somewhat close -I have never heard of it before) and had a high resistance to valbazen and ivomec




Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

I checked his eyelids the night before he passes away and they were a deep pink. Nothing to indicate a worm overload. His coat was nice and feet looked good. He never had any runny or even soft poop sense he was here. He always ate good and was talking and playing. He never made any cries of distress or anything. He was just perfectly normal. (Other than the fact he could eat and eat but never look full-tapeworms was my reason for this) the morning he does I was planning on penning him up and using a different tapeworm medicine. 




Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

You were definitely on top of things Samantha . Sometimes things happen and there is no rhyme or reason.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I know many wormers no longer work in some areas...Ive been using ivomec plus and valbazen for 9 years and it still works...but anytime we over use wormers we create a resistance in our herd...this is why we should not worm on a schedual as some are acustom to doing...

Two rounds of cocci and stunted growth...I bet his intestins were scared and struggled to absorb nutrition...It is great the breeder will replace him!! 

((HUGS))


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Ivomec plus works great for us. You seen the results with Lucy and Ethel.

I just want to know if it's something I did then I have learned a lesson and can prevent it. 

If it's something I could have prevented I now know how to.

If it's out of my control, well then, I believe Mother Nature knows best. 

I just want to make sure my other guys are not in danger. It would probably kill me for something to happen to one of my recovered does because of this. 

We were advised to only copper bolus in the early spring. He said that would pull them threw the summer to be able to fight off any existing worms and then to only deworm for increased worm load in the late fall. 

He said the best thing to do is make sure they are keeping a good loose mineral intake and to keep sulfur and cobalt blocks out at all times. Which we have just recently been doing. 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Sorry I'm probably talking your ears off about this. Just talking to necropsy vet is "odd". He said their number of goats that he does a necropsy on each year that is coming back loaded with barberpole worms is greatly increasing. Why is this worm so hard to kill??? 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Your not , don't apologize ! Its so heartbreaking and but very informative. I was very interested to hear about the necropsy .
Everyone that reads this is learning something and it can help save the life of other goats.


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## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

I'm so sorry ... He was beautiful


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You might want to look into low dosing copper every month during peak barberpole months. There was a study done on sheep in Arkansas (I think). It was a government funded facility. They were seeing good results. This was probably about 3 years ago the study was done.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Samantha you are doing a great job..never doubt that...things happen that we cant for see or control...we do our best and learn in the process..

honestly I think with barpole or any parasite we have given it strength through over worming...it will come a time when no wormer works because we over do...this is why we teach here on TGS to worm as needed...use fecal and goat condition, famancha eye chart to decide when to worm..and just because one goat needs it doesnt mean you worm the herd..unless there seems to be an outbreak..you get a head of it...I love the idea of doing a low dose of copper each month...keep it coming in steady...copper does control the barpole worm...We are adding ACV drench to their weekly just to see if it makes a difference..I know the water kiefer seem sto be helping..its a bit too soon to have a conclusion..but strengthening the gut is strengthening the immune system..its the same with us  every health issue begin in the gut! The more I read on this the more I am amazed..Im working on helping my Autistic daughter through her diet..cleansing her gut and proper diet..I am amazed at the result..she struggled to read basic three letter words until last year...( shes 11 now) and Now she reads scripture in church in front of everyone!! Shes reading chapter books!! Its just amazing..and math? YIKES its been a struggle but now she is doing multiplication! a huge deal for her.. so Yah..the gut is the key...so I am doing what I can with my goats as well as my family : )


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Can you send me a PM explaining how you do the water keifer. I am wanting to try it but I'm getting so confused. 

As for the ACV, we have about 40 quart jars put up right now where we are starting to make our own. Of coarse it won't be ready for a while but I am going to introduce it into every bodies diet here. 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Well some results come back for token and the vet said he was absolutely eat up with cocci. :-( he said they are still running more teats though.


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

wow...after all that treatment! poor little guy...



I did send you an PM on the water kiefer


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Is it common for them to get cocci and have no symptoms????

What about my goats that he was pastures with?

The breeder is trying to say I should have done something. I only had him for 12 days, wouldn't he of have cocci before that in order to be "absolutely eaten up"? Those where the vets exact words. I haven't talked to the vet yet he left me a voicemail. 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Well I just got off the phone with the vet and he says it is quite common for kids to have loads of cocci but have no signs or symptoms.


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes. It is common in kids and adults to have a heavy coccidia load and show no symptoms.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree...we are seeing alot of cocci infection with no runny poo, just alittle off...its getting more and more important to have fecals done to know what we are dealing with, very frustrating..we use to be able to count of those signs, or are we just learning more?? ...Also if something else was going on the stress willopen the door for over load as well..


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Tokens breeder says she is going to replace him next kidding season.

She feels like it is her fault because she kept switching from corid to sulmet and then to Albon and didn't actually complete any of them..... Arg..... 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Well, that would do it. Sheesh...why can't people learn to COMPLETE a regimen before switching or quitting? So, another year before you have a buck....and then another several months before he's ready to breed. Is she going to give you free breeding until then?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Its good of her to replace him...hopefully a lesson was learned here...I am sorry it was at Tokens expense...Im sure the breeder was worried and scared and so made a mistake in not completing the treatments, in times of panic we tend to go over board....I would suggest Baycox to her and treat all babies at 3 weeks old to prevent an outbreak ...she has time to order now for next season...


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Well for one she was going inbetween what a good friend told her and a vet. Vet said corid, friend said sulmet - and Albon was mixed in their somewhere. 

I am actually talking to her about replacing token with his grand dam who is a Nubian. This is the only Nubian the breeder has left and would like to get rid of her so that she can only have her mini Nubians. 

I don't really like the thought of having all the money tied up that I do and having to wait till next kidding and hope she has something that I like. I bought token for two very specific reasons- his head and his ears. 



Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Its very hard when you are given a ton of advice from different folks...hopefully she walks away from this with a better understanding of Cocci and treatment...

thatwould bre great if you can get the Nubian doe...: )


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Here are pictures. Here is what we are going to do.

We are going to give $150 extra for the Nubian doe caprice bred to her ND buck. That would give us our first set of MDGA F1 registered mini Nubians with our farm name.














Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

sounds like a good plan ...shes a pretty girl


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

So sorry to hear about Token... Very sad;( Good learning for all of us too. Good plan with your mini project;-)


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

I have his complete necropsy results. I will get them typed up soon for everybody. 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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