# Cloudburst? Possible dead babies?



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

I have a 5 y.o. Nubian doe that accepted multiple breeding over 2 days in mid-July. Targeted due date would have been about Dec 13. Then 21 days later, she was shamelessly flirting with my boy again, so I put them together and she accepted another breeding. OK...possible January 3 due date. I began her 30-day pre-kidding protocol (vaccinations, worming, hoof care and such) as if we were looking at December. By mid-December she was big as the side of a barn, but had not built her udder and showed no other signs of imminent kidding. The only other oddity was that Lizzie -- who is normally vary talkative -- was becoming extremely vocal. She was begging for attention. In all other respects her behavior, energy, body condition, and appetite remained normal.

So we switched baby-watch to January. Like clockwork, she began some discharge on January 2. I moved her to the kidding stall. Still no udder. She had a sweetish smell to her breath, so I treated for ketosis. Appetite, energy and all still good. Eyes bright. Just vocal to the extreme. The discharge started and stopped. Clear here... milky and thick there... slightly amber but only a few drops. I should say that thru all of this I have never felt kids on her right side (I don't know how to check from below) or seen kid movement, and her right side seems to be more fluid than anything else. Like a huge water balloon. Lizzie is a consistent producer of twins or triplets, and typically has no problems either getting pregnant or delivering.

The ketosis seems to be resolved and there is no odor from her back end to suggest an infection. Any thoughts? Suggestions? I had not pulled blood for a pregnancy test. I just presumed that she is such a fertile girl and the breedings were so good. Thanks for your input!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

It sounds like her due date should be Jan. 3rd, which means she's getting close now. After all, today is only Jan. 4th. I've had a couple of does go as much as a week over. It can be difficult to feel the kids when the goat is close to delivering, especially if she's also fat. A lot of experienced does don't bag up until right before or during delivery. Last year none of my goats made an udder until they were actually in labor. I don't know why that happened, but all of them had enough milk to feed their kids except one doe who has a history of coming into her milk late.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Thanks, Damfino. I was just out there and now she is discharging again! The weather is very mild today, so I let had her out after breakfast for some exercise, but the others are keeping their distance for the most part. A professional courtesy, perhaps? LOL At any rate, she is eating hay, bellowing, and producing some little discharge. So I'll put on my "Patience" hat. Will keep you posted. Blessings...


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

She's just making you work hard for the rewards of healthy and vigorous triplet doelings :-D


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Lizzie would do exactly that... in a heartbeat!!! :ahh:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

How is Lizzie today?


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

How is she?


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

top_goat said:


> Thanks, Damfino. I was just out there and now she is discharging again! The weather is very mild today, so I let had her out after breakfast for some exercise, but the others are keeping their distance for the most part. A professional courtesy, perhaps? LOL At any rate, she is eating hay, bellowing, and producing some little discharge. So I'll put on my "Patience" hat. Will keep you posted. Blessings...


My gracie is a quiet lady... til she goes into labor. Even early labor. Then it is game on with the singin it to anyone who will listen loud and proud til she kids. Then a nice quiet lady again.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

@SalteyLove @JK_Farms (and other.s..!) Sigh... She's absolutely driving me crazy! 5:00 this morning she had me up to watch her pose her best imitations of a gaited horse... Stretchhhhhh...! (Is this my best side? How about this one?) And rub her head. And rub her neck. And her shoulders and back. And "hey, Mom, don't you remember all those Lamaze classes? I need a coach! I need support! I need my back rubbed!!! I need COMPANY!!!!!" No discharge. Then a drop or two. Then none. Then a drop or two. Then nada.

Yup. She's driving me crazy. Good thing she's such a sweetie... and such a great milker! LOL.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Last year she was pulling some of this same stuff, except she wasn't putting out any discharge at all. I was able to get her to the vet late on the afternoon of her "drop dead date". The kids were really mashed up into the birth canal but she was not dilating. He massaged her cervix, and I barely got her back home. We almost delivered the first one in the truck! Obviously this year with the weekend already here I can't get her to him. At what point might it be advisable to try to go in myself and try this? A new skill learned every year... any tips or suggestions?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

top_goat, in so many ways I am reminded of the olden days when expectant fathers would have to stay in the waiting room. They would pace back and forth, constantly run their fingers through their hair, sit down for a few minutes then be on their feet again..... The wait was probably the longest "clock time" ever imagined. Hang in there, from what I've read on your thread, it shouldn't be much longer now. Happy kidding.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Just saw your newest post about dilation difficulties last time. You must of been writing it when I started my post. I was trying to be upbeat without realizing there could be birthing issues. I am sorry if what I wrote sounded insensitive, wasn't done intentionally. Someone far more experienced will be with you soon.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

@NigerianNewbie Oh, my Sandra... not at all! You were trying to be up-beat, humorous... all in the vein of my own posts. Yes, of course I'm having stress remembering last year... and another doe we lost 3 years ago to ring-womb. As we all know, it's impossible to put the whole story and back-story in any post. We try to start with the most obvious, I guess, and progress from there as needed. At any rate, I really appreciated your humor -- and totally identified with it! Obviously you are a dear -- not at all the kind of person who would ever intentionally cause grief. God bless you! -- Lisa


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Thank you Lisa for your kind words. I feel less of a heel now. :squish:


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

:bighughighfive)


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

It may not hurt to gear up and go in to see if there is any cervix dilation.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

lottsagoats1 said:


> It may not hurt to gear up and go in to see if there is any cervix dilation.


I could never locate the cervix. I was able to get my (gloved, lubed, iodine drenched) hand pretty much completely in, but other than the full colon on top, I couldn't feel anything except a lot of folds of flesh. What am I missing here? Was I not in far enough? (Don't know how I could have gotten much further...) Thanks for help on this! @SalteyLove @Damfino @toth boer goats


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Is she pushing at all? If she hasn't started labor then the cervix should not be dilated. Until she starts active labor, you won't be able to get your hand past the cervix and you shouldn't try. If you haven't seen her start pushing yet and she's not in any distress, you should leave her alone. You don't want to introduce bacteria into the vaginal tract by messing around in there unnecessarily, and it's also unpleasant for the doe. She's not far enough past her due date yet to be concerned. When you see a lot of amber fluid then you know she's starting labor and the cervix should begin to dilate soon afterwards. If the doe is actively pushing but nothing is presenting, then it's time to clean up and go in, but not before.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you basically hit a wall, then the cervix isn't open. If it is open, you should be able to go in up past your elbow.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Damfino said:


> Is she pushing at all? If she hasn't started labor then the cervix should not be dilated. Until she starts active labor, you won't be able to get your hand past the cervix and you shouldn't try. If you haven't seen her start pushing yet and she's not in any distress, you should leave her alone. You don't want to introduce bacteria into the vaginal tract by messing around in there unnecessarily, and it's also unpleasant for the doe. She's not far enough past her due date yet to be concerned. When you see a lot of amber fluid then you know she's starting labor and the cervix should begin to dilate soon afterwards. If the doe is actively pushing but nothing is presenting, then it's time to clean up and go in, but not before.


She is pushing now and again, but not regularly. Infection and definitely unpleasant for the doe... yeah, that's why I had been reluctant to go in. How "far over" is a point for concern? As I mentioned earlier, I lost a doe 3 years ago because I didn't recognize when we transitioned to "time to be concerned". Then with Miss Lizzie, last year she was not pushing, discharging or anything, but fearful with memories of the previous incident, I took her to the vet. He was able to stimulate the cervix and in under an hour we had (fortunately) healthy twins on the ground. So this year... I see discharge start and stop but always in small amounts... and so you can understand my concern. Sigh... I suppose I really have no choice but to wait at this point for Monday morning. Thank you Damfino for your input!!!! I truly appreciate it!



ksalvagno said:


> If you basically hit a wall, then the cervix isn't open. If it is open, you should be able to go in up past your elbow.


Karen you say if I "hit a wall". Does that feel like a "wall", or is that the mass of soft tissue I encountered? Definitely I couldn't get my hand in past the heel. Definitely not up to the elbow! So am I to deduce that -- if the cervix were open -- that mass of soft tissue folds would part like the Red Sea? Again...thanks for helping me learn thru this!


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Im not sure if this is the case but I have heard of a disease that causes does to not dilate their cervix, I believe its called ring womb


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Make sure you use something like lube. Your hand can oftentimes go in farther than you think but sometimes you need a little help


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

How's your girl today? Did she ever go into labor?


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Goatzrule said:


> Im not sure if this is the case but I have heard of a disease that causes does to not dilate their cervix, I believe its called ring womb


 Yes... this is part of my concern, especially having lost a really nice doe to ringwomb several years ago. 


Goatzrule said:


> Make sure you use something like lube. Your hand can oftentimes go in farther than you think but sometimes you need a little help


 Definitely. I was lubed and the glove also drenched in iodine for help with sanitation. Sigh. Even so, the white discharge that had been evident b4 is now increased, so I'm presuming a pre-existing infection. I started her on PenG this morning (both injected and also 5 cc douched vaginally). All things being equal I'll be calling the vet in the morning. Possibly A&M, as they could do a c-sec if needed whereas my local vet doesn't really want to do those. I am so fortunate to have A&M so close (just over an hour's drive).


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Damfino said:


> How's your girl today? Did she ever go into labor?


No labor...nothing. See my post above re: infection and ringwomb. I'm trying not to "over-react", but Lizzie had an abscess several months ago. When it finally ripened, I drained it and cleaned it up and sent off a culture. It was identified as proteus species, though the specific strain was not identified. My understanding is that some strains of proteus can be difficult to eradicate. I had presumed the previous white discharge to be her mucus plug, but now I'm wondering if she might not have an ongoing sub-clinical infection. Either way, it is looking like it might be time for a vet. Sigh... Thanks for checking in.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Have you tried to feel for kids? Put your hand on her lower belly in front of her udder and wait. If she is due, you should feel kid movement, squirming or.... something.
Hopefully she's pregnant and all is well and she's just taking her time.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I would think mucous plug rather than infection. If she has an infection in the uterus the discharge will have a strong smell. Ringwomb is a pretty unusual condition. I like to hope for the best and say your girl is just taking her pretty time.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

HoosierShadow said:


> Have you tried to feel for kids? Put your hand on her lower belly in front of her udder and wait. If she is due, you should feel kid movement, squirming or.... something.
> Hopefully she's pregnant and all is well and she's just taking her time.


I have... she is really tight and hard... but no movement. She's also very tender, judging by how jumpy she is. Not her character to be jumpy, but for a month she has not wanted me to touch anything past her shoulders.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Damfino said:


> I would think mucous plug rather than infection. If she has an infection in the uterus the discharge will have a strong smell. Ringwomb is a pretty unusual condition. I like to hope for the best and say your girl is just taking her pretty time.


Oh, I hope you're right! Thanks for the encouragement!!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I honestly would get a vet to check her.
There is so much confusion as to what is happening.

Getting a full hand in there says she is open and with no activity, sounds like things are not progressing properly.

Infection? Not sure what you are seeing or if she had an abscess or?


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

I believe they can lose a plug up to a couple weeks before kidding. I might be wrong though


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## Realtree2429 (Feb 4, 2017)

In my opinion and if available, a vet is never a bad idea if there are worries or doubts.

In regards to the mucous plug, my last doe had discharge (white/opaque) for about 2 weeks before labor started.

I was convinced that she was going into labor for days! I panicked because I thought it was bloody at times. Upon really close inspection I realized that it was still the same color as before, it was just so sticky that it was collecting dirt/dust/etc and it appeared to be ambered or blood colored. 

She ended up kidding triplets in the middle of the night....in between my checks of course.... My husband is constantly reminding me that these animals know more than we do about kidding!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

My apologies... I haven't been online much of late. About the time of the last post (3 weeks ago?) I put Lizzie thru a round of antibiotics (PenG -- 5 days injected plus a vaginal douche). That pretty much took care of her discharge. So it would seem there was an infection of some sort. BUT....

She is still huge and building an udder, but the udder and teats don't feel normal...spongy, like they aren't full of liquid but rather jello. (Photo below shows what I "milked" out earlier today. Very much like lemon pie filling. No odor.)

I was finally able to get help holding her and sent blood off for a pregnancy test yesterday. I should have the results no later than Tuesday, hopefully. But I'm convinced she's pregnant -- or _was_. I finally was able to feel a baby today. I still haven't been able to see any clear movement. If this baby is alive, then obviously there was an under the radar fence breeding. I am so praying for that at this point -- 'cause I really hate the thought of her carrying around little dead babies from the recorded breeding! I spoke to my vet several weeks ago & he simply said "Just keep an eye on her." Sigh. My thinking at this point -- now that I've felt a baby -- is to try to get an ultrasound to see if we can detect a heartbeat. Of course that will have to wait until Monday and will most likely require a trip to A&M (about 90 minutes). I hate to stress her with that trip, but I'm not sure what else to do at this point. Something's gotta give... something's definitely not right! Any words of wisdom from the forum would be greatly appreciated.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Pretty sure that is colostrum. Leave it alone.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Sfgwife said:


> Pretty sure that is colostrum. Leave it alone.


Yes -- colostrum was my guess. I've just never seen it look like that before! Like it's been sitting and coagulating or some such. She's acting wierd today. Who knows, maybe she'll put me out of my agony and kid this weekend! I'm feeling like a total newbie on this one!:waiting:


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Hang in there! It's SO hard playing the waiting game. Someone said moving or traveling with a goat in late pregnancy is really a stress they don't handle well. I'm sending positive thoughts and prayers your way that everything is fine and it's just the Doe Code of Honor driving you to wits end.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Same here, wishing the best for you and her!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I have seen colostrum that thick!! But you are the one there and seeing her and feeling something is not right


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## mariella (Feb 23, 2017)

SalteyLove said:


> I have seen colostrum that thick!!


One of my does has colostrum that thick. I always have to squeeze the bottle so her kids can get it out of the nipple.

To me that looks like Pre-colostrum so it has a little bit to go but it can change overnight.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Phew! I was just thinking about your little gal the other day and wondering what (if anything) ever happened with this pregnancy. I personally would not stress her with a 90-minute trip for an ultrasound unless she's one of those totally chill goats that likes car rides (I have a couple like that). If you can feel kids, try to feel one moving. Get your hand on that little hard lump and press on it. Thump mama's side with your other hand a couple times and see if you can feel a responding flutter. Be patient. It may take a few days before you can feel one move, but if you do it will be a huge relief without spending time and money on an ultrasound that may stress your doe.

I don't know anything about that udder. I've personally never seen colostrum that thick, but I also have never squirted anything out of an udder before the kids came. If her udder isn't hot, lumpy, hard, or painful then it's probably ok, but keep an eye on it if you're concerned.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

GREAT NEWS!!!!! (We could all stand a bit of that about now, right?) I shipped off blood for a pregnancy test on Friday. Got the results today: POSITIVE! So Lizzie is definitely pregnant. I called the lab to confirm that even dead babies would trigger a positive test...yup, that's right. So next I called my vet. He said he was supposed to be on a farm call all afternoon, but they have just purchased a new portable ultrasound machine, so if I could get her up there he'd come back to town and check her out. (It was really funny -- both vets were hovering around that little screen like little boys with a new toy!) Anywho, his first words as he was getting out of his truck were "Wow, that's one big girl! Quads?" I responded that she is known for multiples, but I'd be happy if they're just alive! Well, the good news is that he definitely found an active heartbeat!!!! He also said that her uterus and cervix look normal. So we wait! We had a good laugh about Lizzie catting about through the fence with one of the bucks. Hopefully the trip didn't stress her enough to throw her into early labor. Best we can figure (just going on the calendar) she might be due to kid around Valentine's Day. The due dates from the 2 known breedings were Dec 13, and then Jan 3... she apparently fence-bred 2 cycles later which would put us roughly a week away. So... I am so relieved! Again...ya'll are awesome. Moral support and encouragement and sharing your experiences and expertise. Cyber-hand-holding. Thank you! I'll keep you posted.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh lizzie! It better be a straightforward kidding of healthy triplet doelings for all this.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

SalteyLove said:


> Oh lizzie! It better be a straightforward kidding of healthy triplet doelings for all this.


Absolutely!!!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good to hear.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Valentine babies would be sooo cool!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Yup... so now the naming game begins. Any suggestions? The papa should be Rez Hill's Storm'n Norm'n (aka "Stormy"). We like Hebrew names, movie characters (both Lizzie and also Stormy's sire were acquired at the same time and merited "Pride and Prejudice" names: "Elizabeth" and "Fitz" -- from Fitzwilliam Darcy). Also puns or word plays. Lizzie's first kidding was also a mid-February delivery and the little boy became Rudolph Valentine (aka "Rudy"). The suggestion board is open!

I should add that since we don't know for sure whether the sire is Stormy or his dad "Fitz", these babies won't be registered.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

top_goat said:


> Yup... so now the naming game begins. Any suggestions? The papa should be Rez Hill's Storm'n Norm'n (aka "Stormy"). We like Hebrew names, movie characters (both Lizzie and also Stormy's sire were acquired at the same time and merited "Pride and Prejudice" names: "Elizabeth" and "Fitz" -- from Fitzwilliam Darcy). Also puns or word plays. Lizzie's first kidding was also a mid-February delivery and the little boy became Rudolph Valentine (aka "Rudy"). The suggestion board is open!
> 
> I should add that since we don't know for sure whether the sire is Stormy or his dad "Fitz", these babies won't be registered.


You can do dna test on one of the possible dads if it is a big deal to want them registered.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Any Kids yet? It's almost Valentines Day!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How are things?


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