# Guard dogs



## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

My boys have 13 boer goats. We have a ton of coyotes around. In the past we lost some goats to coyotes. Luckily we haven't lost any in about a year. We have 4 adult donkeys and one baby donkey. Our areas is broken up into several pastures and we keep a donkey in every pasture that has goats in it. This has worked pretty good, but we have a couple of stupid donkeys. Periodically they chase the goats. One got so bad he was removed and he isn't allowed with goats anymore. We also have one excellent donkey that has never chased. 

I am so tired of getting new donkeys that people say are great just to have them turn out to be something I can't use and then I have to find a new home for it. So I was just thinking about buying some livestock guard dogs. I know nothing about livestock guard dogs, but I do know some about dogs. So here are some of my questions, but please feel free to add anything info you have. 

What does a guard dog need in a pasture?
How good are they are protecting against coyotes or stray dogs?
How do they protect (bark, attack, chase)?
How do you feed them (feeder, daily)?
Can they go in a pasture with a donkey or would I need to have one or the other?
What about neighbor dogs? We have one fence with new houses that have dogs that bark at the goats. Would the guard dog spend his entire day barking back?
Are they escape artists or will they stay put?
Will electric fences keep them in?
Which is better a donkey or a guard dog?

Man that is a lot of questions, but I bet I can think of some more.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Good questions! I'll try to answer a few from my point of view and experience 

I would recommend researching a lot!

What does a guard dog need in a pasture?
It'll need water and shade and something to protect it against the elements. It is possible it won't use it but just in case.

 How good are they are protecting against coyotes or stray dogs?
This is what we got our dog for. In general they are very good at it. Some LGD may be more dog friendly than others. Depending on how big your coyote pack and stray dogs packs are, you may need more than one or two dogs to be effective.

 How do they protect (bark, attack, chase)?
A lot of barking. If the intruder doesn't go away because of barking they may choose to push, and posture more, then move on to chase or attack. There are many different breeds of LGD and each has it's own way of working. There is also variability within each breed. Some will bark longer before moving on to attacking or chasing.

For example, we chose an Akbash as the breed we wanted. From our research, in general, they are less stray dog and stranger tolerant than Pyrenees, but possibly more family friendly than an Anatolian. Plus they come in short hair!

 How do you feed them (feeder, daily)?
You can do either. We typically feed our dog twice a day. But if we are gone, we may give him his free feeder or one big meal before we leave.

Can they go in a pasture with a donkey or would I need to have one or the other?
If raised right, your dog should be fine with a donkey. I would question whether your donkey(s) would be okay with the dog.

What about neighbor dogs? We have one fence with new houses that have dogs that bark at the goats. Would the guard dog spend his entire day barking back?
We have a neighbor with weiner dogs that bark at us, the goat, our dog, etc...Our LGD usually goes to check it out each time, but then ignores them.

 Are they escape artists or will they stay put?
Depends on the dog and training. My dog is happy to stay in 5 strands of poly wire. We do have a 5 foot perimeter fence too. He was trained from an early age to respect the hot wire and he is happy with his goats. I have heard others can't keep their dogs in though?

Will electric fences keep them in?
Mine respects the electric fence. If he was chasing something though, I don't know if it would stop him.

Which is better a donkey or a guard dog?
Personally, I would say a dog. A donkey is still a prey animal.

One mistake I think many people make is not training their LGD. They have great natural instincts but that instinct needs to be molded. Kind of like a Border Collie has the instinct to herd, but needs the guidance to know when and how.

Good luck with your research! There are a few others here who have LGDs so hopefully they'll be able to help out as well!


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

You can get the donkey to accept the dog, but you need to do a lot of socialization with the dog on the leash and the donkey in a halter with a handler for each before trusting the donkey around the dog.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

Thanks for the info.

I saw someone that was selling a mix breed guard dog locally. They have had the pups 100% in the field with the mother and goats since they were born. At least these pups would have some basic knowledge. 

What would you look for in a guard dog breeder or pup? Would it be better to get an adult guard dog or a pup?

We currently are running goats in 3 pens. We may eventually run them in 4 at a time. That may be a bunch of dog food if I end up with 4 more dogs. The donkeys are eating with the goats, but I don't notice their price of food.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I don't trust donks with dogs, I have heard too many stories about donks turning on the dogs and killing them.

I love my dogs. Yes, dog food is more expensive than livestock feed, but I love and trust my dogs to do their job. I have 10 BIG dogs, so 2 LGD did not make that much of a difference in food prices. I do feed a quality soy/wheat/corn free kibble and raw ground meat/meaty bones to them (cheaper) and they do awesomely.

Coyotes, fox and stray dogs do not come around any more, since my dogs took up residence here. The Malamutes do a great job scaring the coyotes away with their howling and the Pyrenees bark and chase anything else. The Malamutes are never allowed near the livestock because they will kill them, the Pyrenees do the livestock mingling.

I got a 8 week old pup and and her adult sister who had some experience guarding livestock to start with. They have been great for me. A single strand of electric fence wire keeps them on my huge (1 acre) farm. They hit the hot wire once and that's all it took. They are smart, unlike the goats they are guarding.

Pyrenees love to bark and mine do it a lot. At everything. Neighbors dogs, coyotes, owls in the tree trying to get the chickens, people walking by in the street, neighbor kids hanging over the fence, me turing the water faucet on, the pot of milk pasteurizing on the stove, a cricket farting 3 towns over...all a reason to bark. However, I can tell if it is friend or foe by the type of bark and whether there are growls integrated with the barks. They will surround a human, barking and growling, but have not had to get any more aggressive towards humanoids as of yet. I know they would if they needed to. As for the furry and feathered predators, they will attack first and ask questions later. They even protect the livestock from the 6 Malamutes. The younger Pyr protected my late elderly Setter from the other dogs and helped her down the steps when her legs got wonkey. 

You do need to train the guardians and keep an eye on them for improper behavior against the goats. And improper behavior from the goats towards the dogs. My late herd queen used to try and kill my dogs, so I would have to go in and punish her for hurting my dogs.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Just to clarify, what you want is an LGD, *livestock *guardian dog. Not a guard dog. Different jobs.;-)
A mixed breed of an LGD will work. 
We have Anatolians. One is 1/4 Pyr. Unbeknownst to us, he was jumping fence & ripped up a couple of neighborhood dogs. The minute we found out we raised fence.
Some bark more than others but it is a pleasant deep bark, easy on the ears & you can pretty much tell who or what is out there by the intensity & volume.
Attack is usually the last resort. By having more than one, one will go after the threat & the other will hang back with the stock.
Very rarely will stray dogs ever set foot on our property. If it does happen I have no problem yelling GET and if owner is present to kindly remind them that there is a leash law & my dogs will eat him alive.
As for properly contained neighbor dogs, your LGD will eventually figure out they belong there and ignore them.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

^^^Yes, if your dog is not *100% Livestock Guardian Dog* (Pyrenees, Anatolian, Akbash, Tatra, Maremma, etc) there is a 97% chance he/she will attack and kill your stock.
Only *100% LGD* breeds or crosses between them (other LGD breeds, no other type dogs) should EVER be trusted around livestock.
"Guard dogs" are bred to kill. *Livestock Guardian Dogs* are bred to protect and have very little to no prey drive at all.
Don't risk your animals by purchasing a mongrel or dog of unknown/partially unknown parentage/pedigree!!!!
You don't want to learn the hard way!!


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

Also, not all LGDs are suitable for guarding, no matter what their parentage. Just like some donkeys will guard where others will harass the goats, just because an LGD is and LGD is no guarantee that they'll be good at their job. Instincts and training are both vital components with LGDs. I think that in some ways a poorly trained LGD can be worse than no LGD at all, which is why we still don't have one since we don't have time to properly train and supervise one. Do a lot of research on training before you get one and try to find a reputable breeder of working dogs, not just an AKC breeder, to get one from.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

YES! You can't just throw the dog out there and expect it to take care of your animals!
It requires 1-2 years of intensive training/socialization/reprimandation to produce a good LGD.
It is not difficult, but it does require commitment.

After the dog is fully mature and trustworthy (18-30 months old), you can safely and confidently leave the stock in its care.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

How do you train a LGD? I am at work all day so it would be left alone with the goats most of the day. 


Would you need something else to protect the goats for the first 18-30 months of the dogs life?

Is it a better idea to buy an adult trained LGD or do they need to grow up with your herd?


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

Training guard dog puppies is sometimes off kilter.
For example training two pup's together is easier than training one. They play with each other. Not with the herd.
Pups that are hassling one animal may be doing so because the goat is sick and they are worried about it.I always check the goat for illness first when I see my pups hazing an animal.
I am often surprised at the change my pups go through at 18 months. Just last month i had a pup I thought was a waste of time become an outstanding guardian.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

If you aren't home to supervise, I would put your pup in a pen adjacent to your goats. This will allow them the get to know each other and for your pup to bond, but wouldn't let your pup do bad things like chase or play. If you trust your goats (and donkey) not to hurt it, you could possibly cable it in the goat pen too. When you have time, let it in with the animals, first on leash and then free, and supervise. Be sure to immediately correct any unwanted behavior. 

As it gets older and more trustworthy, you can let it out with your herd for longer periods of time. Dogs are individuals, so your pup may be an angel from the beginning to end, or it may go through naughty stages. You have to be prepared for that and to work through it.

Fivemoremiles has a point, my dog was kinda just a jerk until he hit 16 months. Since then he has been terrific.

A mature dog may work well, because it would give you immediate protection. But, it will come a little more set in its ways than a puppy. You would also need to go through the proper acclimation stages so that it learns who its animals are and where its property is.

And like others have said, the most important part is to make sure it is a Livestock Guardian Breed!!!


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## LaurieW (Sep 24, 2013)

Something I did not see mentioned or asked....the goats reaction to a mature dog. Our goats had not been around a LGD (livestock guardian dog). We had adopted (before getting goats) a mature Great Pyrenees from our local pound. Our goats were Very Afraid of him. I have talked with other goat owners and heard horror stories of goats injuring themselves trying to get away from a LGD, and the dog was not doing anything but being present. That was the reason we decided to go with a LGD puppy, to allow the goats to get used to the dog as he grew up...basically becoming part of the herd.

What does a guard dog need in a pasture? Water (shares the goats water)
Hubby built a dog house but the goats liked it and 10 fit inside! 
Our dog has used it too. To keep the goats out we have tried a couple of different things, the last an inverted triangle. (Inside the dog house is a self feeder). However, our dog usually sleeps near the goats if they are sleeping outside or at the barn door when they are inside the barn, this is his doing...not trained to do this.

This is a photo of his home/yard until his training period was over -




Goats in Dog House by Laurie W, on Flickr


Cotton - Ice-Winter Storm by Laurie W, on Flickr

How good are they are protecting against coyotes or stray dogs? So far so good. We have fox in our area too. He has kept our goats and chickens safe. Coyotes take calves in herds in our area and especially in the winter I hear the coyotes carrying on with yelping, etc. near us.

How do they protect (bark, attack, chase)? I think another post covered this well. Our Pyrenees gets good results with his barking. He has attacked and killed ground hogs and other smaller creatures. The property owner to the North of us has lost chickens due to coyotes but so far we have not lost a goat or chicken. We have seen fox in our yard eating pecans.

How do you feed them (feeder, daily)? We feed our dog daily, with the goats. And then a second time in the evening when I close the chicken coop. Originally I put the food in a dog dish for him to eat, when he was young he had a fenced area he spent most of his time around but not with the goats. When he was then allowed to live with the goats we just feed him while they were eating. Later we added a self-feeder when we went on a trip. It worked great....for a while. Until one goat discovered how easy it was to open...and eat the dog food! So we moved the feeder inside the dog house and have implemented various 'goat proof' openings to the house. So far the inverted triangle seems to work to keep the goats out and the dog access.


Triplets (Snickers, Reese & Oreo) & Cotton & Hens by Laurie W, on Flickr

Can they go in a pasture with a donkey or would I need to have one or the other? I would be concerned about the donkey attacking the dog.

What about neighbor dogs? We have one fence with new houses that have dogs that bark at the goats. Would the guard dog spend his entire day barking back? Our Pyrenees does not bark as much in the daytime or as long. There has been situations he will bark a time or two when he hears gun shots or other dogs in the neighborhood. But not the same barking as at night. As a matter of fact I give our dog credit for keeping our goats safe and inside the fence on a night when some local cows got loose and completely tore down the north end of our electric fence.

Are they escape artists or will they stay put? Ours stays put. As a young dog he got shocked a couple of times in the electric fence, he now respects it. We have a pretty good shock, so as to keep the goats in...and that has worked well. The Pyrenees we adopted as a mature adult from our pound regularly jumped their (the pounds) 6 foot chain link fence. He does not live with our goats at present.

Will electric fences keep them in? It has kept our Pyrenees in, we have had him 2 years now.

Which is better a donkey or a guard dog? We considered a donkey, guard dog and llama and decided for us....it was the livestock guardian dog. We then had to narrow the breed choices that was right for us and felt it was the Great Pyrenees, we have too many visitors to have a guardian dog that might harm people.

There is a LGD Yahoo group I would suggest, lots of great information can be found in past and current post. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/workingLGDs/conversations/messages

When we brought our puppy home we made a fenced area within the goat pasture so he and the goats could get nose to nose. Our puppy/dog was only allowed to be with the goats unless supervised. We used verbal commands and a shock collar to train him. He is really smart and I only had to use the shock collar 3 times in his life. His parents were living with goats.

Cotton (our Pyrenees) spends some time on a ridge where our first goat shelter is located and just watches over the pasture, seeing both goats and chickens.


Cotton (on watch) by Laurie W, on Flickr

This was after someone shot a gun near our home. General hunting gunshots in the distance do not bother him, it is when they are close. (video of him barking)


Cotton barking by Laurie W, on Flickr

Good Luck with whatever you decide.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

How much do they bark? Is it dependent upon the breed? Honestly I hate barking dogs more than anything, but I don't mind a donkey screaming at all. I know the barking scares the threat away. 

I have tons of kids from the local school and neighborhood come see the goats so I would need a VERY safe dog.


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## Debra55 (Jul 14, 2015)

Hi there! We have 3 Great Pyres in with our goats and they are great. The 2 females are very accepting of my family and family dogs, the male is not. He will not let anyone except me or my boyfriend in the pen and would bite anyone else, of course this is his job. Donkeys are not good with dogs, most hate them and will try to kill them..which is why they are used to protect against coyotes. If you choose to get a puppy, do not just turn the puppy loose with the goats. The puppy should be penned inside the goat pen but separate from them. It should be let out with supervision so that you can correct bad behavior. It should also be fed with the goats to prevent food aggression. Also, we feed our dogs twice a day.

If this is your first go round I would suggest an adult dog that already has experience


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

I am back tossing this idea around because I had a donkey beat the tar our of 4 registered boer goats this weekend. 

I have found two adult male great pyrenees and some great pyreneese/anatolian puppies for sale. All say they are LGD. 

What questions should I ask them?

Is a male or female better? I want them to guard, but my young boys do all the feeding and there are lots of neighbor kids that visit the goat (with us).


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## Debra55 (Jul 14, 2015)

Personally, I think asking a guard dog to let too many visitors in is going to be a problem. One of ours, will not let anyone except me and my boyfriend (the people who feed them 2 times a day) into the pen. He won't even let my dad in whom he sees a good bit of the time, even if he is with me. He is doing his job so we cannot complain about it but I would not trust him around neighbor kids


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