# Considering a rescue horse



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Yeah, as the title reads, and basically was interested in your thoughts. 

Two horses were dumped here on the 300 acre property of which we rent a house and 12 acres for my goats. One is a mare and the other a gelding; they were on agistment here, the owner stopped paying agistment and stopped showing up. That was 14 mths ago. The owner of the property has done nothing with them since them since then. 

The gelding seems healthy enough, though seems overweight (I'll take some piccies tomorrow to see what you more experienced horsey people think) and I was wondering if he was a complete gelding actually. He seems to have a very cresty neck. And he dangles his penis like a stallion does. Do geldings do that?? He is shiny and feet look ok just need a bit of a trim. I'm going to take photos tomorrow to advertise him, I reckon we'll be able to find him a home no worries. He's quite enough and will walk on a halter. 

I'm more concerned about the mare. She must be older as she is a flea bitten grey (though doesnt have an old old look to her if that makes any sense). I think she's overweight too. She has virtually no mane or tail - vitamin deficiency?? or would one of the other horses bite it off?? I wouldnt think so as she seems to be the boss of them. Her feet are atrocious - they are cracked and crumbled to buggery, I dont know how she is still walking. I'll take pictures tomorrow. She's also at some point must have had an injury on her face, its been stitched up (not even with real sutures) and the skin has grown over them, there's now just a couple of threads hanging off her face near her eye. 

We were wondering about offering the gelding for sale and using the money to try to rehabilitate the mare. we have tried to get a rescue to take her but no luck. At this point not sure what I am going to do but I know I am not going to let her keep fending for herself on ruined feet 300 acres, and of all things eating potatoes since the property owner comes twice a week and feeds his cows potatoes (which also makes my blood boil but thats a whole separate issue). 

Would just appreciate any thoughts you have on the matter. She was very sweet, put her head down into my chest and followed me around. The gelding didnt want to know me, let me pat him but just kept eating LOL


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I'd say go for it! Then again I hve a soft spot for horses hehe


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

The dangling penis is normal for a gelding as it is just a relaxed state. If it were an erection, I would be much more concerned. The difference is obvious if you were wondering. The crest on the gelding is also not too uncommon if he is overweight. It is one of the places excess body fat is stored. Sounds like they get plenty to eat! 

On the mare, she may be an Appaloosa which sometimes have really wispy manes and tails. They are often the flea bitten looking color. If she seems itchy, she may have rubbed the mane and tail off, but you would have noticed irritated scratched up skin if that were the case. I have seen goats chew horse hair before, but have not known it to be a problem between horses. The hooves are a problem, but like goats, with time and work they can be improved. You can learn to trim horse hooves, it is really not that different than trimming goat hooves. I do my own horses. BUT, it is much more physically demanding, you must have the right tools, and she must cooperate. Around here, it is quite expensive to have a farrier do it.

If you sold the gelding, would the mare be the only horse on the property? They are also a herd animal and do much better with the company of other horses. People keep them alone all the time but they don't yell about their loneliness like a goat. If she is alone, she will need a lot of attention and she will probably join whatever herd is available. Goats are often great horse companions.


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## jbreithaupt (Jun 24, 2012)

It sounds like you have a good plan. Definately see if you can get some photos of her hooves. I may can help with that issue, I have dealt with hoof issues numerous times. What kind of fencing is around the pasture? If it's barb wire, that may explain the loss of main and tail. Some horses are fence huggers and strip their hair off in the fencing. Or it could be as you say, a nutritional issue. Very easily remedied and grown back within a year. What kind of grass are they feeding on? I do worry a little about separating them. She may have issues being alone. She may not be old, just a grey roan color. I would have a vet come out as soon as you decide to keep her and give her a good overall check. Your vet can age her and let you know about the overweight issue. Could just be bloat if she has too much of the wrong grass. 

I am taking care of an elderly horse that is as best we can figure, 34 years old. He is in horrible shape but happy and as healthy as we can keep him. As long as he isn't suffering, we let him just live out as best he can. He gets extra feed and vet checks due to his age. When we ride the others, he runs along beside us like he's mad for us taking away his friends. Horses are best friends, stress relief and teach responsibility. I have had horses since I was 2. I am a rescuer, Mounted Patrol officer, and foster home when necessary. PM me with anything you have issues with, be glad to help!!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Ugh I just wrote a long long post then lost it. I'll try and remember what I said.

First off, thanks for all the words of encouragement! I expected to be told not to, that I would be in over my head etc.

Anyway, interesting day today. I asked my friend who knows more about horses to come out and give her opinion on whether I could fix the mare. We went out to the paddock and she met the gelding first. She caught him and put a halter on him, measured him (14.2 - 14.3 hands, I'm chuffed as I had estimated that just by eyeballing him). Said he's a bit overweight but not too bad. Feet are in good nick. He seems healthy enough and going by the teeth is around 4 or 5. She worked him on a long rope, had him backing up and lunging both ways. She said he's a strong and pushy horse but not in a nasty way, just spirited and young and untrained. He's very affectionate and smart. He enjoyed the work and each time she stopped he came in to her licking his lips.

Unfortunately the mare took off when she was working the gelding, although we did get a quick look at her we didnt get to put a rope on her. She doesnt think they are too overweight, maybe the gelding a little bit but not really the mare.

In a funny turn of events, the gelding is now hers! LOL But we have a plan! My friend is going to do some work with the gelding, and at the same time help me learn how to do ground work with the mare (I'm very green when it comes to horses). We are taking it slow and steady, and in a few months we will see where we are at and make decisions about buying or selling them etc. We are going to bring them in a bit closer to the house so they are easier to work. I have a small electric yard with a lean to for their night yard, and 12 acres for them during the day, just gotta make sure they wont harrass the goats. My neighbour and I just need to clean up the yard of fallen branches, then we will catch them and bring them in by the end of this week, my friend will be out again Sunday.

She also brought me some hoof oil to start trying to make her feet a bit more supple. I figure she needs a bit of time to settle in and a bit of time making those feet softer before we trim. I have trimmed overgrown and even foundered horses before but not cracked ones.

I didnt get any photos of the mare and her feet but will try to over the next few days. Here's photos of the gelding:




























And now a couple of questions.

a) What breed do you think? Someone said clydie x quarter horse. My friend thinks at least 3/4 QH if not full QH. She reckons he moved like one.

b) Is he overweight and do we need to do anything about it or is he ok like this?

c) Is he a rig? Is that crest normal? He doesnt display stallion behaviours according to my friend.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

Definitely, no draft in that boy, Paint, QH, Appy (the mare sounds like an appy and appys frequently have little mane or tail, it is genetic for their breed), Arab, Welsh pony, Shetland, or some other type pony mix (pick the ones that you like, as other then the Paint (definitely there), I could believe any of the rest). 

I would be very concerned about the neck, but not as a ridgling, but as having the starts of Cushings diease/Insulin Resistant or something similiar. That should be seen by a knowledgeable vet and addressed accordingly, as he is carrying good weight overall, but his diet will need to be regulated or he will be a very sick pony. A stallion has a different kind of neck, I don't consider a stallion's neck to be cresty, like this boy's, a stallion neck is uniformly thick and muscled out and the muscling comes down into the shoulder and front end. 

Is she sure that he is only 4 - 5 yr old? He sounds to have too much of an education for a 4 yr old horse that has stood untouched for 14 months and that neck definitely looks Cushings/Insulin resistant and Cushings is not usually a young horse issue, usually start seeing indicator in the teens. To me, he looks older then 4 - 5 yrs old, maybe teens, he looks a little dropped in the back and too quiet for a 4 - 5 yr old that hasn't been worked? The Appy that is in Alyssa's signature line, looks like a 4 - 8 yr old, notice the flat back from the horse's withers to hip. Condition can change that, but even un-conditioned young horses usually have a flat back to them, due to youth. I would buy 12 - 20 for an age on him depending on his genetics, some horses age more gracefully then others, but I don't think he is that young.

As for penis dropping and playing. I have dealt with geldings that have done everything from absolutely nothing (no playing, no dropping, nothing) all the way up to actual mounting and penetration, just no conception. My gelding, definitely a gelding, as he was turned out with 2 mares for 10 yrs with no foals, gave a human 6 yr old female visitor quite the eduation when we caught him playing with himself and technically mastrabating. He was dropped, hard, and thumping himself on his belly for a thrill, lovely.

As for the mare's feet, horse feet can be quite deceptive, I personally don't get overly worried about cracks in the outer hoof wall until they start to go through the inner wall. Horse feet have 3 - 4 layers to them, similiar to goat feet, but they rely on the hoof layer a lot more then a goat, so those layers are built differently, a lot thicker, tougher. A good farrier that can get her balanced, should be able to get even the worst cracks worked out in a matter of 6+ months and we are talking cracks that go through to the inner wall and such. Unfortunately, there are a lot of not so good farriers out there with a good song, so you will need to ask around for a good one and don't believe for a minute that she needs to be in shoes. I brought in a gelding this spring with beautiful feet that was so sore and out of balance that he just about couldn't stand up, we pulled the shoes, trimmed him up balance for him (he toes out something horrible and the farrier was trying to "correct" that, not something that you can do in an 18 yr old horse) and, while, he will never be sound due to 18 yrs of bad farrier work, he is comfortable, runs, bucks, and rules the roost. So, shoes aren't a fix, a balanced trim for the horse is.

Otherwise, he looks like a cute little guy that could be a serviceable mount with a little work. And the mare doesn't sound all that bad either, she might need a little more work on her feet and it sounds like she might be a little older. Is she the mother of this little guy? But, I would definitely get a hold of her and get the stitches pulled, that is just asking for problems, if you don't, and get her feet trimmed by someone knowledgeable and have a vet out to give her a once over, to check her teeth (very big deal with older horses, so that you know what you need to feed), possible worm her, etc, and she will probably give you a great learning experience.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

my friend is pretty.confident on teeth and apparently someone else that looked at him said the same age range too. what makes you think he is so educated? he is very green but when he irst came to the property he was broken to saddle. my neighbours daughter has apparently been on himjust bareback a few times but not.for a while. she has also led him around a bit which i didnt know till today. 
interesting abiut the cushings, i'll look into it. 

mare will be caught some.time.this week, i'll start oiling her hooes and see what we can do with trimming rhem. i will get her vet checked and teeth floated but i cant justify a trimmer oming out eery few weeks for a year trying.to fix these feet. id rather do it.myself. none.of.my previous horses have been shod.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

I think the gelding is fat. You will get different opinions about how fat is too fat. Thnik about your goats though. You would not want to keep a goat so fat that you couldn't even see it's top line, or feel it's ribs easily. Obviously, horses are more heavily muscled than goats but you do not want a thick layer of fat on them either. And this gelding has got thick layers all over. As onehorse mentioned, that could be a metabolic thing. He is pretty fine boned in his legs and goes to a chunky body with rolls of fat (no those are not muscles). Like people, horses get something similar to diabetes from carrying too much body fat , and then the disease causes more fat deposit and insulin resistance. That is what we are talking about here. The problems associated are founder, organ damage etc. The crest is in my opinion stored fat. I have seen ponies with a crest so thick it flopped over. Once they have that crest it is hard to get rid of. Some horses are "easy keepers" and can't be fed very much at all, certainly can't be kept on lush pasture 24/7. So, my suggestion, since your friend wants to keep him, is that he be penned up to restrict his diet and that he receive daily exercise until he is an acceptable weight. Do have him seen by a vet, just to be sure that he hasn't already begun the cycle, but IMO if he is what you describe and is sound, you may be in time.

I agree with Onehorse that the gelding is not draft. He could very well be QH but is for sure part paint. 

He sure is cute! And it sounds like he's got a nice attitude and will be a lot of fun. I hope your friend has the time he needs and can help him out and have fun in the process. I can't wait to hear more about the mare and see pics of her!


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## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

Do you know about worming? Unlike my goats I tend to worm my horses on a rotation plan every few months and assume they always have worms.

My horses will rub/chew the mane off of other stalled horses and I hate it. This is normal horse behaviour to rub/chew each other in that area. At least it has happend to the majority of horses I have owned and who are stalled together.

The gelding looks to have high withers. I'm sure your friends know about proper saddle fit when the time comes. I would also have his teeth done beforehand.

Mare - too hard to tell without pics but you could start her on a hoof supplement? Does she move out ok? Not sure about the stitches healing up on her face. Would need pics on that too but I would imaine the few threads showing could be a bother and those could be clipped short.

Best of luck with your new projects.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

I never said "so educated", you said she could get him to back up and lunge. Most grade 2 - 3 yr olds would not be taught to back up or lunge at that age or at any age, unless it was a educated owner and the educated owner of a grade horse usually won't dump said horse that they had invested that kind of time into.

Also, the first time I throw a 4 - 5 yr old on a lunge after 14 months off, there is usually some kind of rodeo, even with the drafts (which he isn't) that I have dealt with, might not be big (like with the drafts), but there is usually some high FUs, head tossing, bucking, running in, running over, and other "I don't want to and I don't have to listen to you" moves, which is normal for a horse that hasn't had to listen to anyone for 14 months and you didn't say anything about that kind of activity either.

At 4 - 5 yrs of age, he should have recently lost some his baby teeth and you should be able to tell that, a couple of molars and incisors, the last baby set.

I have dealt with 15 - 20 yr old very green horses, green is in regard to training, not age and there are tons of untrained, green horses. Broke to saddle is relative also, I have guys that got a saddle on a horse and let them buck it out and consider them saddle broke, I don't. He sounds (and looks) like my neighbor's gelding, 19 yrs old with enough training to keep him from being overly dangerous. He lunges (kinda), backs up (kinda), and is kinda started under saddle. She bought him as a 6 month old, because he was pretty, but she doesn't have the knowledge to get him finished in any direction, but he learned to lunge and back at 14 yrs old when I was hauling her daily to a ring with an instructor, not at a 2 yr old. She is the kind of owner that would dump a horse.

If he is truly 4 - 5 yrs old, I would move him on as he is going to have issues down the road. If he is 4 - 5 yrs old, I would consider him swayback with health issues, the swayback and health issues are only going to get worse with age. Age 12 - 20+, I would invest the time and energy into his health issues and put the conditioning back into him and his back and body should strengthen, he should loss some of the excess weight and becoming a sporting little guy.

What it really boils down to is that the age, education, build, and the fact that he was dumped are not adding up for 90% of the horse population. You might have found the rarity, but I doubt it, if someone invested that kind of time to get him started right under saddle, they wouldn't have left him.



keren said:


> my friend is pretty.confident on teeth and apparently someone else that looked at him said the same age range too. what makes you think he is so educated? he is very green but when he irst came to the property he was broken to saddle. my neighbours daughter has apparently been on himjust bareback a few times but not.for a while. she has also led him around a bit which i didnt know till today.
> interesting abiut the cushings, i'll look into it.
> 
> mare will be caught some.time.this week, i'll start oiling her hooes and see what we can do with trimming rhem. i will get her vet checked and teeth floated but i cant justify a trimmer oming out eery few weeks for a year trying.to fix these feet. id rather do it.myself. none.of.my previous horses have been shod.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

haha, sorry there was definitely a rodeo before he realsed she was not going.to let him get away with it and settled in. there was fighting and rearing, head tossing and in general a 'why are you doing this to me i dont want to do it' attitude. i think she will b able to.fit a saddle ok, i know she went to painstaking lengths.to get the right fit for the syandardbred she has at the moment. 

i do hear what you are sayinf with his potential issues. at this point we cant simply move him on until he is a bit.more educated and thats where my friend comes in. like i said we are taking it slow and will see where we end up in a few months time. 

mimi - thanks! she said she already hada lot of fun with him, the way he thinks and learns and the way he moves. she is a natural horsemanship type person and i am looking forward to watching her work him more. 

elizabeth - yep i know about worming. we are gonna worm em next sunday.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

quick update - i went out and saw her today. took a rope lead and just looped it around her neck. didnt think id get away with it, and she didnt wany yo walk.until i said walk on then she responded, sje also pulled up wjen i said whoa. i flicked the rope all over her face and neck and rubbed all over her. every time i did something new she laid back her ears and threw her head up but with me talking calmly and rubbing her neck which i discovered she loves, she relaxed, lowered her head and brought the ears forward again so im hoping thats a good sign. she didnt seem to love.me a huge deal but she also seemed to just be really happy to have some attention. she spent a lot of time with.one ear forward and the other laid back - not sure what that means? wjen i let her go and walked back to the house she followed me part of the way.


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

He kinda looks like a Fjord cross to me-nice looking boy!


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

So Keren-Pics of that mare :] I miss my horse :[ but now she is being ridden-I just didnt have time


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Keren, that sounds like a good start. I especially like that she followed you when you left. She may just not like having her head handled which is understandable if she has that old injury there. If you keep playing with her she will trust you soon enough. One ear forward and one back is normal, she is just paying attention all around.

I am curious about what you are calling laid back ears. I am guessing that she has them turned to where the openings are facing back towards her tail but they are still standing up off her head...right? Head up ears back in that position indicates a high alert, she is nervous and watching carefully. What I, and most horse people, call laid back ears is when the ears are flat against the head where you can hardly see them. If she were to be doing while you were just handling her I would be much more concerned and cautious. Flat ears mean she is distressed and/or aggressive. But, since she chose to stay with you, I am guessing that she just had them turned back.

I am glad to hear that she responds to voice command. She seems like she might be a real sweetheart. Can't wait to hear more about your adventures!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thanks mimi - i'll try to get a picture of the ears. i git the feeling.it was nervous/high alert not aggression. i.forgot to.take the camera.out with me.yesterday! im going away.for.most of today but wednesday the plan.is.to clean.up their.night yard.so.we can bring them.in.either weds.or.thurs. so will have photos one.way or the other soon! 

im.trying to rea as much about horse behaviour as possible. she was high headed until i sort of lowered/bobbed my head at her then she would put her head down and relax. so i kind f did that each tim she was good and she responded the same way. is this good/the right thing.to do?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thanks mimi - i'll try to get a picture of the ears. i git the feeling.it was nervous/high alert not aggression. i.forgot to.take the camera.out with me.yesterday! im going away.for.most of today but wednesday the plan.is.to clean.up their.night yard.so.we can bring them.in.either weds.or.thurs. so will have photos one.way or the other soon! 

im.trying to rea as much about horse behaviour as possible. she was high headed until i sort of lowered/bobbed my head at her then she would put her head down and relax. so i kind f did that each tim she was good and she responded the same way. is this good/the right thing.to do?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

He has a little paint markings on the chin, Body wise he looks just like my friends quarter morgan mare. I dont think hes that fat he is just a big boy, but if the mare is a appy going off the mane and tail thing maybe some appy in him. I only want to stress a little about the mare, you dont know much about her and I just want to say watch your self with her, a abused horse will have issues. I had one that I got from the pound, I loved that girl but I would have to move slow and she seemed to think everything was out to get her. Ill tell you though, after having her jump out from under me about 100 times made me a dang good rider lol, bottom line I just want you to be safe around her, and good luck


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

I am not sure exactly what you are describing here as far as your behavior goes, but it really doesn't matter much. If it is causing her to relax then it is probably good. Just be sure that you are reinforcing only the good quiet behavior and not accidentally reinforcing the raised head. (for example, she raises her head you respond by talking nice and petting her to sooth her. She thinks "ok raised head means good attention") Head bobbing can be a sign of submission so be careful that you are not telling her that she can be the boss. That wouldn't be a good thing!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

ive been reading through what seems to.me to be a great natural horsemanship website - im learning lots anyway. and i think with the head what i am doing is dsplaying a relaxed posture which causes her to realise the new thing isnt scary and so she has relaxed to. also reading and learnijg that she is the lead mare in the little herd here so i will have to work for her respect. 

jess -good point. i jave enough fear of horses to have a healthy respect for them and always watch myself around them!


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

That's great! Looking forward to pics.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Nice looking gelding. That is great that you are able to help them.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I dont know how to quote but I am lol about the fear thing ......I can tell you have a good heart, Im not there to actually see her but I bet with kindness and love she will do just fine with you. My mare actually took a year to get a halter on her, then another year to ride her and she did great when I got on her. It was just a matter of getting her trust and building love. I really hope she ends up good for you, every girl needs a horse


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

lol, I didnt really know how to exactly describe it. I'm not scared of horses exactly, just not totally comfortable around them, I stay on my toes and have a healthy respect. Unlike with cattle and goats I am too accustomed to them and sometimes blase about being safe around them, and sometimes I get a painful reminder. With horses I am just not that used to them yet, I dont quite understand 100% how they think and move, and its been 3 yrs since I was last around and on a horse. I am sure together we will both learn 

I need a new name for her. The neighbours kids call her "White"


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

From the photos I would guess a Quarter Horse or Paint crossed with a pony breed...maybe a Welsh. I would definitely not be shocked if he was a Welsh x Quarter cross. So a Quarter Pony of some sort. The leg/face white and the body roaning scream Sabino. That type of sabino is what you see in Clydesdales, so I can see the Clyde guess based on color...but based on body shape, height, etc. I would definitely go with pony. Sabino is most common, from my experience with what pony breeds we have in my area, in Welsh ponies...so thats another reason he screams Welsh to me. His shape is right, so is his color. There are several different "types" of Welsh, so they can range widely in size/shape but I've seen one style that looks a lot like him, just a bit more refined...so I wouldn't say he is pure Welsh. Although the "cob" type can be pretty chunky. Here is a Welsh pony of the cob type in his exact color (chestnut sabino) ... Your gelding also has the typical cresty Welsh (of the cob type) neck and the same shape to his butt/hip as is common in that breed.










And another:










This is a REALLY small end Welsh (they come in several size classes), but is a classic sabino....the belly roaning could be considered rabicano but I can't remember the distinction:


















Here is what appears to be a black Welsh (he looks really small as well) who is sabino/rabicano:










Welsh x Quarter pony crosses have excellent reputations as sane, willing, people lovers so congrats!

And a Paint is just a pure Quarter Horse with spots. A pinto is a color, any horse can be a pinto (including a Paint), but the only pintos that can be Paints are registered Paints...which started as horses the AQHA tossed out because they had too much white (even though they were technically purebred Quarter Horses.) It can be confusing.... My FIRST impression is that the horse looks fat from the photos. Watch the crest. Cresty, cresty horses like that can be prone to insulan resistance (which is also common in some pony breeds) and that can make them prone to founder. If a horse founders too bad, the bone in the hoof separates from the wall and begins to rotate downward. Damage can not be reversed once separation begins, so its important to not let a horse get too fat, and have a competent farrier check for signs of founder (better yet, a vet as well.) His butt looks oddly lumpy, which also equals fat pockets to my own eye. HOWEVER, cresty necks ARE very common in Welsh ponies/horses simply as a part of how they are built, so he may always have a rather cresty neck even with weight loss/toning. In other words, in many fitted up, show ready Welsh ponies, they have necks that are just as cresty and butts that are just as lumpy shaped. It might just be how he is because of his breeding.

Cresty Welsh examples:










(And I LOVE this stallion! Has a similar butt shape to your gelding's as well...)


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Thanks firelight! I am a fan of welsh cobs myself, and thats really what I thought he was, or at least part. thanks for explaining the paint thing too. I was a bit confused because people were saying QH x paint because of the colour, even though I see fullblood QH for sale here that have those paint markings. 

I've had the ?pleasure? of having to trim foundered shetland ponies before, and trying to manage them. This boys feet seem good. 

Aargh I should get off my bum and clean up their yard so I can then go catch them and pen them up ... and get some photos of the mare ...


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Yay photos of the mare! 

Yeah, the Paint vs. Pinto thing has always been confusing. A Paint is just a breed, not a color. All Paints are registered with the APHA and have AQHA heritage (or would qualify for registration, there are plenty of horses out there who never got the papers they should have, or people lost track of them.) A Paint's coloring is pinto. And within the pinto markings you have more specific terms for certain types of patterns, such as frame overo, tobiano, splash, sabino, etc. And you have plenty of argument, especially with things like splash and sabino, as to what a horse's markings truly qualify as. So a spotted Arabian cross isn't a Paint, it is a pinto. That Arabian's daddy absolutely could have been a Paint, but because the cross is not a purebred Paint, it can not be registered as such...therefore it isn't a Paint but is still a pinto. Saying something is a Paint cross if you think it has some of that breed in there is absolutely accurate, but people will always just say that they think something is a Paint cross because of color, and color alone is a very poor indicator. There are lots of non-stock type breeds with the same colors, so spotted doesn't automatically mean its been crossed with a Paint. Spotted and with a Quarter Horse type conformation is more logical. Although any non-papered horse is generally pure speculation, but build has to come into play. Just a pet peeve of mine I guess. Lol.

And the whole reason for the APHA was because all of those purebred Quarter Horses that were really nice and had come out of the womb with too much white were being denied their rightful papers by the AQHA. So the APHA was formed for the "crop outs" of the AQHA. Some time ago the AQHA abolished their white rule, so spotted, purebred AQHA horses could be registered with the AQHA...but they could still be registered with the APHA because of their spots as well...then you ended up with a lot of double registered horses. That rule change confused the heck out of people all over again but raised the value of many horses because their circuit options doubled.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

While this is all true, if you look at this gelding's facial features, he probably comes from Paint, the breed, lines and isn't just a pinto. It is along the lines of there are certain thourghbreds and QHs that I can tell are in a particular horse's genetics by the way they act, Impressive and Bold Ruler are examples. And it is like how Albatross stamped that face and head on all his get.



firelight27 said:


> Yay photos of the mare!
> 
> Yeah, the Paint vs. Pinto thing has always been confusing. A Paint is just a breed, not a color. All Paints are registered with the APHA and have AQHA heritage (or would qualify for registration, there are plenty of horses out there who never got the papers they should have, or people lost track of them.) A Paint's coloring is pinto. And within the pinto markings you have more specific terms for certain types of patterns, such as frame overo, tobiano, splash, sabino, etc. And you have plenty of argument, especially with things like splash and sabino, as to what a horse's markings truly qualify as. So a spotted Arabian cross isn't a Paint, it is a pinto. That Arabian's daddy absolutely could have been a Paint, but because the cross is not a purebred Paint, it can not be registered as such...therefore it isn't a Paint but is still a pinto. Saying something is a Paint cross if you think it has some of that breed in there is absolutely accurate, but people will always just say that they think something is a Paint cross because of color, and color alone is a very poor indicator. There are lots of non-stock type breeds with the same colors, so spotted doesn't automatically mean its been crossed with a Paint. Spotted and with a Quarter Horse type conformation is more logical. Although any non-papered horse is generally pure speculation, but build has to come into play. Just a pet peeve of mine I guess. Lol.
> 
> And the whole reason for the APHA was because all of those purebred Quarter Horses that were really nice and had come out of the womb with too much white were being denied their rightful papers by the AQHA. So the APHA was formed for the "crop outs" of the AQHA. Some time ago the AQHA abolished their white rule, so spotted, purebred AQHA horses could be registered with the AQHA...but they could still be registered with the APHA because of their spots as well...then you ended up with a lot of double registered horses. That rule change confused the heck out of people all over again but raised the value of many horses because their circuit options doubled.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

onehorse_2000 said:


> While this is all true, if you look at this gelding's facial features, he probably comes from Paint, the breed, lines and isn't just a pinto. It is along the lines of there are certain thourghbreds and QHs that I can tell are in a particular horse's genetics by the way they act, Impressive and Bold Ruler are examples. And it is like how Albatross stamped that face and head on all his get.


With this particular horse I would guess that yes, he is half Quarter Horse OR Paint because I think he does display breed character from either/or (since they are more or less the same thing.) But she said some of her friends immediately went to Paint cross based strictly on color...which always drives me crazy since there are so many other types of horses out there with pinto spots that aren't a Paint.

I had a Seattle Slew grand-daughter who had his head...so many of his get and grand-get had his head. AND that seal brown color he had. Khemosabi horses in the Arab world, they look related. And they often are bay with high whites and a blaze and just resemble him greatly through their head/neck and general conformation. I find studying familial resemblance in horses fascinating... I always hear people talk about the difference in physical inheritance between the dam line and the sire line, but I get confused at that point. Lol.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Picture time!*

Finally got them penned up and took some photos this morning  Was hard to get a decent picture of the mare cos they kept following me around. I have won them over with carrots lol























































Front left foot










Front right










Back feet


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Yes, that girl is an Appaloosa, and looks pretty darn good! She has a nice head and eye, I'll bet her temperament will stay nice for you. But aack! Those feet! Holy cow! Ok, I'm done....if she is not lame, I would knock off those wings with a good set of nippers, file smooth, wait a little while and then work some more. Assuming of course that you don't want to call out a farrier. It will be interesting to hear if she let's you handle her feet. They don't look as if they have ever been trimmed...lol. She is definitely worth saving, and doesn't look that old.

Edited: you know, thinking about it, if you can possibly afford it, and if you know a really good farrier, I would have her first few trims done by an expert. Just to be sure the sole and hoof walls are properly taken care of, and her natural balance is found.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Mimi, I thought that too, about having the farrier do the first few times. I'll have the money but not till the end of the month when all my holiday overtime pay comes through. I figured may as well see what I can do in the meantime - but hey - it may take that long to progress to where she lets me pick up her feet. Who knows. 

I know the neighbours kids have picked up her feet before but its been a while. They also said she's a kicker. So we may need to work on that. I just want to take it slow and steady because both she and me are a bit nervous around each other BUT we are both learning and we both like each other (well I like her anyway - and I think she likes me). The carrots help with that! lol. I did get a lunge whip just so I have something I can rub down her legs etc from a safe distance to get her used to being touched everywhere. I'll probably give her a bath too. Thats the sort of thing I used to do with my kicking cattle to get them used to their legs and feet being touched.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Pretty girl! Those hooves are something else though.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Both of those ideas sound good to me. Just be careful in case she comes unglued yep, she has gone this long, going slow and steady until you're ready isn't going to hurt a thing. Does she have a name? I forgot.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Wow, those are horrendous feet...I think your idea is good though, to let a farrier handle the first couple of trims. Of course if the horse tries to kick people in the face, most farriers won't touch them so exactly what you are doing, getting them good to be handled all over, seems perfect.  .... I would guess that mare has zero grey in her. She is what looks like a chestnut appaloosa who has varnished all the way out. It could indicate age, or not. I've seen a couple 3-4 year old appaloosas reach that level of varnish that quickly. Some don't hit that much varnishing until 20..they all lose their color at a different rate. Only way to be sure on age is having a vet check her teeth. I've had plenty of people from farriers to trainers tell me they can judge teeth, but have my vet disagree with age on a particular horse. When in doubt, I trust the vet......Also, her tiny, sparse tail is pretty common in some Appaloosa's...some people call it a "rat tail" and its just a genetic thing. I've had luck growing tails by washing/conditioning once every two weeks and the braiding the tail and putting it up in a tail bag or wrapping it with vet wrap like Arab people do. I also rub some MTG into the tail and the tailhead after conditioning. I don't know how much it will help a rat tail though, I've heard its hard to get such a tail to grow and have never owned a horse with one. MTG can be found at many tack/feed stores....if you care. Lol. Nothing wrong with a teensy tail, its part of her heritage. I like her conformation, and I have a soft spot for Appys. 

http://www.horse-genetics.com/appaloosa-varnish.html


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thanks firelight, I dont mind the ratty mane and tail at all, I reckon its a bit of character  yeah one of my friends told me earlier today she's not grey - she reckoned red roan. I know nothing about appaloosa colours. 

today she was much easier to catch and put the halter on - so that was a little win!

we worked on yielding today - we did forwards, backwards and hindquarter yield. Havent got shoulder yield down pat yet though. I also managed to slowly lunge her today and get her moving the way I want her to move - didnt for very long because I didnt want to put too much stress on those feet but I am trying to instill as much mutual respect as I can. She did very well. 

We also worked on my personal space, since she likes to come into it. Worked on making her back off and stay backed off until I allow her to come in. Took a while but she got it in the end. 

We need to work further on her standing still next to me - shé doesnt think much of that idea BUT she is better every time. 

While I was holding her in the paddock a huge tree branch came down very close to us - she got scared, backed up, reared up a little but then listened to me and got her mind back on task as soon as I asked her to do something. So I figured that was pretty good. 

I also managed to measure her - which took quite a while because she was petrified of the tape measure going near her shoulder. I just gradually introduced it to her, let her sniff it, dance around it etc then managed to start rubbing her head with it, then her neck etc until I got to her shoulder. I couldnt believe it but it took a good ten minutes for her to stop dancing about and tolerate me holding it next to her shoulder. Anyway, she is about 15.2 hands. 

Funny you say that about the farrier - we are in for a lot of work teaching her to let me pick up her feet. She is fine with rubbing all over them, but as soon as my friend tried to pick up the front one today, she just flipped. Not an impressed horse. So I'm gonna go slowly slowly with her and try to get her comfortable with it. I think it may be a while before we manage to get either me or a farrier working on her. Luckily she seems to learn fast.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

oh yeah, she diesnt really have a name - the.neughbours kids call her "white". i havent thoufht of anything yet so.suggestions are welcome


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

The problem with training a horse for feet is that they are so big and if determined, they will always win a physical battle. So if a horse chooses to flip out and take his foot away, most of us are not going to stick around underneath. And so the horse learns that pitching a fit relieves the pressure of foot training. Then, as the human gets more determined and tries a littl harder, the fits get bigger and bigger, because in the end the horse always wins and does not yield it's feet. Vicious cycle.

Here's a trick I have used with great success on a horse that was bad about his feet. I could write an entire book on the details of this method, but i'll try to be brief here. Take a soft rope with you (about 6-10 feet) every time. Get the horse real familiar with it by rubbing it and softly tossing it over and around the horse. Once the horse is calm around the rope you can start using it to train for feet. You should have the horse's lead in your hand or over your arm, never wrapped or tied. Put the rope around the top of one of the front legs and hold both ends. Slowly allow the rope to drop down until it is behind the horse's knee. Give the rope a twist or two to tighten the loop just a little and keep lowering it down the leg. The horse should be standing calmly for this or you need to work to desensitize a bit more. When the horse is calm with the rope all over it's leg you can proceed. Let the loop drop onto the fetlock. If the horse calmly steps out of the loop that's ok, praise her (because she just yielded her foot to the rope). If that happens, stop for the day, let me know and I'll give you a different set of instructions.

What I think will happen though is that she will give you 'the look' and tense up ready to do battle. Twist the soft rope until it is snug around the fetlock. This gives you a way to safely hang on to the foot. She may object at this point. Just go calmly with her if she steps off, use the lead to control her trying not to pull on the foot rope. As soon as she stands calmly, release the pressure by untwisting and praise. Try hard to praise/reward only when she stands calmly. Repeat until you can 'squeeze' both front fetlocks without her objecting.

Once you have got this far, You have a safe way to work with her on yielding her feet. I will be happy to keep writing to you on the next steps if you are happy with the start of this method. Sounds like you are having fun with her. I enjoy reading about it!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thanks mimi, I'll see how I go with that method and let you know!


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

Yes, she is definitely all appy and the gelding standing next to her screams Paint cross, especially now that you can see how wide he is across the forehead. While those feet, aren't the greatest, they aren't really that bad. I can tell that she has been on soft, dry ground for a while, but she is starting to get long enough that she is self trimming. There are no major cracks, the shape of the actual foot is actually very good that she shouldn't have any soundness issues and you, yourself, could get her feet back into shape in about 3 months. She really just needs all the flare taken off and it is all at the bottom of the foot, just take all the excess outer wall off from the bottom back to the white line/inner wall and put a nice roll on the outer wall all the way around and the cracks will grow out very quickly. She actually has great feet, all things considered, these are not bad, left go, yes, but a very easy fix. She needs her bars taken down a little too, but that isn't bad either.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

ok so here's a bit of an update. btw, I *think* her new name might be Avalon. I'm not completely sold on it yet, just trying it out at the moment and considering other names if they jump out at me. 

Todays foot session went pretty good, but then not so good. I'm afraid I may have been sending mixed messages or pushed her too far. I should mention I did try another method advised by a friend about slowly working my way down the leg and squeezing her chestnuts to encourage her to pick up her feet, I wasnt really making any progress so I went to Mimi's method. 

She is fine to have the rope (actually I was using a felt ribbon from one of my goat shows) all over her legs, and on the fetlocks. She doesnt care at all about me 'squeezing' them with the 'rope'. So I thought I would see how far I could take it, I asked her 'foot' and pulled a little on the foot rope, no response, I gently pushed on her shoulder. She lifted the leg ever so slightly and shifted weight off it, I rewarded her for trying. Then did it again, and managed to get her to actually lift the foot, I held it by the rope for a couple of seconds, lowered it to the ground and rewarded her. I managed two good foot lifts like this on the left side. However I thought I would try for a third, held up a bit longer, and she wouldnt have a bar of it, didnt pitch a fit but just wouldnt stand still, she just calmly hopped forward on three legs. So that was a bit disappointing, but I didnt want to end on a bad note so got her to stand and managed to get her to shift her weight off it and lift it very slightly and I rewarded that. 

I repeated the same on the other side, with a similar story, I managed to get one good lift but then when I tried for the second time she was hopping about and wouldnt stand still. 

I finished up with a big grooming session which she seemed to like, and some basic come and back off commands and lots of rewards so that we finished on a good note. 

I will work again tomorrow, my question now is how do I correct her to stand still? I honestly dont think its fear or aggression, she just very calmly walks away when the foot comes up.

With the gelding, we unfortunately have a bit of a set back. He has come up lame, my friend trimmed his front feet sunday, and noticed a small stone bruise in the left foot. He was ever so slightly lame monday morning, but when I got home from work could barely walk. I'm wondering if he was playing silly buggers up and down the fence (I've seen him do it alot) and tripped on that slightly sore foot, and has done some soft tissue damage. There is heat and pain up in his armpit. Poor bugger. I kept them in their night yard today so he would rest, took him for a gentle walk on the halter several times throughout the day, hosed the leg down several times a day (it was 111'F here today), rubbed some rapigel on it and gave him a shot of banamine (which didnt seem to do much). He seems ever so slightly improved this evening. During the day he was laying down a lot, and when standing he held the leg bent out in front of him. Tonight he is standing up more, not laying down as much, and standing on the leg straight not bent. So hopefully it will be better soon. 

Is this the right approach for an injury such as this one?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thanks onehorse, you've given me hope  now we just gotta master getting the feet picked up and we will be right as rain! 

our soils here are fast draining sand, so yeah not the best thing for hoof health


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

I would need to see what the gelding is doing and then get answers to questions, before saying what I think it is, as it could be anything from a strain to an abcess and they all present in a similiar fashion. Banamine should be fine, I am not a fan of antiboitics for abcess, so I wouldn't give any.

As for picking up feet, that would depend on what she is doing. First off, Appys are their own breed and deal with the world a bit differently then other horses and there are some Appys that are just down right stubborn about things. I have a feeling that this gal is trying to figure out what you know to see how much she needs to know. I know of people that twist chestnuts to get a horse to lift their feet, but some you have to crank on pretty hard and some horses just ignore it completely, Appys are one breed that can ignore that completely. Some people pinch the tendon right below the knee, same deal as cranking on chestnuts, some horses don't care and will ignore it. For me, depending on the horse, I don't start babies that think I am trying to eat their leg the same way as an older horse that knows what to do, but doesn't think it is in their best interest. My babies, you move slow with, they pick up their feet more then willingly and all I am working to do is get control over the foot lift as they are usually too fast about it for general purposes and they want to get it away from me, so the biggest thing is getting a hold of it as it flies past you and keeping a hold of it. Each time working on increasing the length of time for the hold. Now, for my older guys that think they know better, I take a hoof pick and gently start tapping on the back of their fetlock joint and slowing increase the strength of the tapping until it is annoying enough to them to pick up their foot. I have never had a horse that I had to wail on to get them to pick up their foot, but it is annoying to them, that it usually only takes about 3 - 5 times(sessions) and all I need to do is tap them with my fingers on the back of their fetlock and they will pick up that foot. While I am tapping on the fetlock joint, I have my other hand in the correct position to pick up a foot, so that I can direct that foot when the horse does pick it up.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

keren said:


> thanks onehorse, you've given me hope  now we just gotta master getting the feet picked up and we will be right as rain!
> 
> our soils here are fast draining sand, so yeah not the best thing for hoof health


If you put her on concrete or a similiar hard surface, most of that flare would break off in chunks in a couple of days and then all you would need to do would be a little bit of clean up, roll the edge, check the heels, and take down the bars, but on a soft surface, someone will probably need to take the nippers to her to get that flare down. I would love to have her in my barn, a couple of trims and all but the longest cracks would be gone. I was expecting elf shoes and curled toes and some of the really wicked stuff. If she was a draft horse, her foot length is a little longer then proper scotchbottoms, but not by much. They wanted that kind of foot on the drafts that worked in boggy situations in England and such, it help disburse the weight so they didn't sink as deep.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh good, that sounds good, you did just what I would have and went forward with the lesson. You are doing a great job with her! It sounds like she did not take the foot away and stomp it down which is very nice. You could approach the hopping off problem in a couple of ways. First, i am not there and cant see what happened so i am going to guess here based on what i read, please do not be offended if I am dead wrong. Ok from the horse's perspective: she offered you a good response and instead of being content and moving on to something else, you made her repeat the exercise getting harder every time. She has no motivation to continue to comply because if she does there is no release from the task. You just ask for more until she refuses. Next time try to ask for the foot, get ONE positive response, reward, remove the rope, do something else for a while and return to the foot training in a few minutes. The message you want to give her is "if you comply, I will stop asking". As you work on it more you can ask her to hold it up longer each time, but for now a willing attitude is what you are building. 

Second, work on the WHOA. Spend some time making her understand that whoa means stop and stand. She has some voice command already so whoa should be remembered quickly if you enforce it. Once you are getting a good solid whoa, go straight to the foot exercise and command whoa as soon as you see her shift her weight backwards to hop off. If she hesitates immediately put the foot down as a reward. If she does hop off, are you able to control the lead at the same time as the foot rope? If you can, use the halter to 'bump' repeatedly on her nose and turn her head to you making it as awkward as possible for her to move forward. Try not to let the foot down, or at least keep some firm pressure on it, until she stops and offers a positive response. Then immediately praise and move on to something else.

When she is standing quietly and letting you lift the foot off the ground with the rope, the next step would be to eliminate the rope. My horses give their legs by voice command while I grasp the the lower cannon bone. So first you get her comfortable with standing on three legs using the rope for safety, than you transition to using your hands when she is behaving nicely. Training for the back feet comes after that.

I want my horses to feel motivated to try to please me, so when they offer a positive response, I release the pressure of that particular task and move to something else. I usually have a few goals at a time that I am working toward and I know you have a few with this mare. Move fluidly from one goal to another and back, switching tasks often. Your horse is smart and seems a willing girl. I am so happy for you that you seem to be really enjoying her! What a blessing!


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh I forgot to comment on the gelding,...sounds like you are doing fine with his injury and are on the right track. If he keeps getting better, I wouldn't worry much. If there is heat in either of the front hooves then you may have a problem that will need more attention.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Makes perfect sense mimi and I thought that was where I went wrong! Thank you, and I'll update again after I have done a little work with her this afternoon. 

Oh I should add, at this point I am working with her about 20 - 30 minutes each afternoon when I get home from work, and several weekend sessions of 1 - 2 hrs. Sound ok?

Gelding is still sore this morning, and I havent been home today to hose him so it will be interesting to see how he is when I get home from work. There wasnt any heat in the hooves when I first found the injury, I will re-check again today.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Excellent! As long as she is interested in being with you and responding well, you should play with her on whatever schedule suits you. Taking days off won't hurt her either. I hope the gelding is feeling a little better. This is fun hearing about your adventures. Thanks for sharing.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

hey onehorse, good call on the abcess!! I came home today to a very sore gelding and when I picked up the hoof, a very smelly burst abcess. I'm just about to head out and clean it and apply a poultice. And give him some antibiotics, I know you said you arent a fan of antibiotics for abcesses, but to be honest thats how I deal with abcesses in my sheep, goats and cattle and it makes me more comfortable giving him abs.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I had a Morgan mare that was cresty like that- she had a serious thyroid deficiency. (Lots of that around NE OH)- we have no iodine in the soil.
Check your gelding for thyroid. An old pulling pony I had as a kid had the thick crest also- the farrier at the time said that would be a 
sign that she had or would founder. (I have no idea if that is true). Nice looking horse!


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

Goats, sheep, and cattle have a TOTALLY different foot then a horse, antibiotics will force the abcess inward and reak all kinds of problems, it will take twice as long for the abcess to work out and you will risk bone infections and deterioration of P3, the coffin bone, don't use antiboitics on an abcess in a horse. Goats, sheep, and cattle have a cloven foot, theirs is much softer in the heels and the hoof wall is not used for the same kind of support as a horse. Horses are not cows, sheep, or goats and can't be treated the same in all ways.

The best thing to do is to clean it up, wrap it, and give him something for pain, though pain meds don't seem to work well on feet due to the way the nerves set up is. The best thing for an abcess is to wrap them and turn them out with a buddy that will make them walk to walk the abcess out. I don't like forced walking by people, as it can be to much, but with a horse buddy, a sore horse will stop and the buddy will slow up, but not stop, so he will walk through it.



keren said:


> hey onehorse, good call on the abcess!! I came home today to a very sore gelding and when I picked up the hoof, a very smelly burst abcess. I'm just about to head out and clean it and apply a poultice. And give him some antibiotics, I know you said you arent a fan of antibiotics for abcesses, but to be honest thats how I deal with abcesses in my sheep, goats and cattle and it makes me more comfortable giving him abs.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

It isn't a sign that they had or will founder, but an indicator that there is an internal issue going on that can result in founder. In days of old, they use to use founder as a way to correct poor feet in horses. The old timers would founder the horse and then turn them out for a year and more often then not, the horse came in at the end of the year with better feet. While a cruel, painful method, I understand why it worked.



Goats Rock said:


> I had a Morgan mare that was cresty like that- she had a serious thyroid deficiency. (Lots of that around NE OH)- we have no iodine in the soil.
> Check your gelding for thyroid. An old pulling pony I had as a kid had the thick crest also- the farrier at the time said that would be a
> sign that she had or would founder. (I have no idea if that is true). Nice looking horse!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Sorry we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I did check.my vet book (hungerfords) which has never failed me amd it said clean, poultice, penicillin. 

The buddy he is with just walks off and leaves him so that wont work byt he is still walking about in their yard.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

keren said:


> Sorry we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I did check.my vet book (hungerfords) which has never failed me amd it said clean, poultice, penicillin.
> 
> The buddy he is with just walks off and leaves him so that wont work byt he is still walking about in their yard.


Yeah, too much experience can make you realize what is really going on and that vets only know so much. Sorry, poor horse.

There is very limited blood circulation in a horse's foot and it is primarily in the outer wall/surface. Antibiotics cause the outer layers of the foot to heal quicker then the gunk from the abcess to be expelled, the only way a horse can get rid of gunk from an abcess is through the blow out spot, so you want to get that and keep that open as long as possible. They CAN NOT bring enough of it up out of their leg to make a bit of different, it just doesn't happen, that is why antibiotics don't work, the gunk has to go through the blow out hole or you risk incapsulating it.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

keren said:


> Sorry we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I did check.my vet book (hungerfords) which has never failed me amd it said clean, poultice, penicillin.
> 
> The buddy he is with just walks off and leaves him so that wont work byt he is still walking about in their yard.


I agree with one_horse....Clean and poultice sure, pen...no. And this is advice from MY horse vet. All vets do things differently, but this is why I take all veterinary advice with a grain of salt. They are far from infallible and many treatments are highly opinionated. Its fun to watch vets argue. Lol. And as far as vets and goats go...so many have no clue but don't want to look dumb and will can outright kill your goat giving bad medical advice. I can't trust most of the vets in my area...they will tell me to do the exact opposite of some of the most trusted, seasoned breeders on this forum.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

well as we all know there is more than one way to skin a cat and its too late now anyway since I gave the penn last night. 

the upside is that he is slightly improved this morning. 

I will take what you said into consideration and have a chat with my vet next time I see her re the pros/cons of a/bs for foot abcesses. 

At the end of the day none of the 4 'owners' of this horse (invested persons anyway) were in a position to, or willing to, have a vet out to see him so whatever I do surely has to be better for him than leaving him be. I'm just glad this happened once he was brought in and not smack bang in the middle of 300 acres 

My mare ended up getting the night off from working on her feet since it was almost dark by the time I had doctored the gelding and I still had the goats to milk. So we just had a scratch and some carrots and hay.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

keren said:


> well as we all know there is more than one way to skin a cat and its too late now anyway since I gave the penn last night.
> 
> the upside is that he is slightly improved this morning.
> 
> ...


You are DOING something for the poor horse, and I commend you. The poor dear got totally neglected up to this point. And like you said, skinning a cat and all that jazz. Lol. Whats nice about abscesses is that they are not terribly uncommon, because sole bruises aren't terribly uncommon, and they usually resolve without complication. (Usually.) Did your vet recommend any soaking? It all depends on the location of the abscess, but most vets will tell you that all the nasty stuff needs to get sucked out, more or less. Whats funny is that a farrier will tell you all kinds of DIFFERENT things and not necessarily be wrong either. I don't know which world there are more opinions in...the horse one, or the goat one. Probably the horse one. Lol. Which is why I stay away from shows and boarding stables these days. And yet my best friend is boarding/training at my old trainers' place (who I love) and I STILL hear about the drama. Mostly women telling her how she shouldn't ride like this/that or feed this way, or do this treatment to her horse..on and on. I think the trainer must have the patience of a saint. Lol. This is going to sound bad about my own gender, but in a world with 99% women its ...just.... :hair: .. Ok, went off on a total tangent here that had nothing to do with the abscess, but yeah.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

oh firelight, I have already realised way before this that there is so much controversy in the horse world, more so than in the goat world ... sigh. Thats why I am willing to take what you guys said and discuss it with my vet, but I also think that if some people use antibiotics then they cant be all bad either. Different methods for different people. 

yes vet recommended cleaning the hoof and using the hoof knife to scrape off as much gunk and grotty stuff as I could (not an easy task, it was very sore), then soaking in diluted betadine for 10 minutes (easy to do, he happily stood with his foot in a bucket of warm iodine water, then apply the poultice hot, bandage, and repeat every 12 hrs. One shot of long acting penicillin which was given last night, so glad he's good for needles. Bit wary with an animal I dont know the history of, never know how he is going to react to new things and I remember my friends horse a while back would just about kill you and herself if you tried to give her a needle. But he is very good for it.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Wow keren, you have your hands full! I admire the time and effort you are putting into these animals. I hope you have something in writing soon that gives you ownership as you already have so much invested. I am glad you have a trusted vet to advise you on the gelding's care and I sure hope he heals quickly without complications.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

talked to my vet and she said antibiotics after an abcess is burst can help resolve the infection, but arent imperative. but not to give them if an abcess hasnt burst because then the infection just sits there and doesnt want to come out. 

mare has had two nights off now since I'm spending my afternoon time doctoring the gelding  she is a very jealous thing and wants my attention!


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Ha ha ha, poor girl misses you. She'll be glad when he's better.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I should have a bit.more.time.this afternoon to work her for half an hour or so, hubbys not home.tonight so i dont have to rush around doing critter stuff before its time to put dinner on


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

keren said:


> talked to my vet and she said antibiotics after an abcess is burst can help resolve the infection, but arent imperative. but not to give them if an abcess hasnt burst because then the infection just sits there and doesnt want to come out.
> 
> mare has had two nights off now since I'm spending my afternoon time doctoring the gelding  she is a very jealous thing and wants my attention!


That makes sense. I think that was what onehorse was trying to say..that if you give antibiotics to an un-burst abscess it will just refuse to drain.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

this guys abcess had burst when I gave him the shot, I thought I had mentioned that but maybe onehorse missed it


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

Sorry, I disagree, 80% of the circulation in a horse's foot circulates around the outer hoof wall, the antibiotics require bloodflow. You get situations where the hole where the blow was small enough that it will heal closed before the foot can get all the gunk out. This is why there are people who can't understand why their horse gets an abcess every 4 weeks or ever time the farrier is out or their horse is lame ever time the farrier is out ... It's the same abcess, they blow it out, usually in the same spot, usually a very small hole, frequently unnoticed. Vet comes out, give antibiotic and stall rest, hole closes up, horse is semi-sound and the cycle continues. The horse never got rid of the original abcess, it's just festering. I never, ever, ever use antibiotics on a foot abcess. I always turn the horse out and I try to get a buddy with them to get them to move, playful ponies are the best for this, they don't take no for an answer. Horse foot abcesses don't function like other abcess. Skin abcess is a totally different critter, hoof abcess, you want the gunk out, you want to keep the hole open and let it heal from the inside out and feet on horses heal very, very slow due to the way the circulation is. An abcess in a horse's foot is a large pocket of pus coming out the weakest spot on that foot it could find. I am not a fan of digging out a blow hole, but when I have to soak the foot to find the blow hole, I will, to keep it open.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I see what you are saying however I think in this case since I have two very large holes that are kept open since I am scraping away all the gunk off them every 12 hrs when I change the poultice I just cant see the antibiotics doing any harm. Plus I trust my vet


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

You really need to understand the dynamics of a horse's foot, to really understand and vet's are given less then a day on feet in vet school and they don't disect a foot in that time. That's why vets do more harm and put down more horses due to foot issues then just about anything else, they start something and then it spirals out of control and they loose the horse. It is pretty sad that the saying is "No Foot, No Horse", but they have made no advancements in the treatment of the foot in 50 yrs. 

The walls of the horse's foot is 1/2 - 3/4 of an inch thick, that abcess had to build up enough and find a weak spot in that hoof wall to blow out. The size of the pocket of gunk to the opening make giving birth look like child's play. You aren't even close to touching where the gunk is inside the foot, so is pretty immaterial at poulitice time.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Onehorse please just drop it. This is not what this thread is supposed to be about. i am treating this horse under the advice of a vet that i trust which is more than what anyone else was going.to do for the poor thing. i dont even know hat you were trying to say in your last post. 

i do actually understand horse anatomy as i did an entire unit (not just one day) of equine science as part of my uni degree. 

anyway, i had a successful session with my.mare yesterday in which i managed to pick up both front feet without the aid of the rope. only held them for a second or two but praised her lots and will try it again today.


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## littlegoatgirl (Jan 11, 2013)

keren said:


> Onehorse please just drop it. This is not what this thread is supposed to be about. i am treating this horse under the advice of a vet that i trust which is more than what anyone else was going.to do for the poor thing. i dont even know hat you were trying to say in your last post.
> 
> i do actually understand horse anatomy as i did an entire unit (not just one day) of equine science as part of my uni degree.
> 
> anyway, i had a successful session with my.mare yesterday in which i managed to pick up both front feet without the aid of the rope. only held them for a second or two but praised her lots and will try it again today.


Listen. I really think that it's great that you are doing this, and I say: GO WITH YOUR INSTINCTS! You are giving them a chance, and they are blessed that you are taking care of them. Keep up the good work


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

Unfortunately, I hate the poor information that is being circulated by the industry about how to treat horses and that people actually believe it. It has killed millions of horses. If my information helps one horse, even if it isn't yours, it was worth it. I have rescued a few more then 2 horses over the years, fixed a few more feet then 8, and have a few more years of actual experience then a couple of classes and that is more then a few vets can even say, because I get them after the vets give up.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

I'm not saying that how onehorse is presenting her information is good (or bad for that matter)...this is just an unbiased observation...but I do agree with the fact that most vets don't know enough about feet in a horse. Specialist, especially equine sport specialists, are much more informed. Don't even get me started on reproduction....the fighting between vets when it comes to what should and shouldn't be done in breeding situations is insane. If breeding spendy horses, I would never go with anyone who wasn't a breeding specialist. General practitioners just don't know enough for tricky mares.

Its amazing to see the difference in knowledge from vet to vet. I love mine because while he is well educated (and goes to conventions, classes, etc. constantly to learn about any new advancements he can discover), he is the first to say his opinions are only that, educated opinions, and he encourages me to weigh all options and go seek out other educated opinions. And then when I find others, he discusses them objectively with me and sometimes he changes his recommendations based on what other professionals have said. He is the best vet in the world, IMO, just because he is so honest and open, and because he cares so deeply. The well being of the animal is always first even if the money isn't in his pocket. And his fees are extremely reasonable. He is always giving me discounts, IE doing something extra I didn't ask for, for free. Like the extra sedation it took to float Chardonnay. Such an impressive attitude. Oh hey, did this thread just cause me to go off on a completely unrelated praise session for my Dr. Bridges? Lol. If I ever move I'll be so sad to lose him!


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

That's a vet that is worth their weight and very, very few and far between.


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## littlegoatgirl (Jan 11, 2013)

onehorse_2000 said:


> Unfortunately, I hate the poor information that is being circulated by the industry about how to treat horses and that people actually believe it. It has killed millions of horses. If my information helps one horse, even if it isn't yours, it was worth it. I have rescued a few more then 2 horses over the years, fixed a few more feet then 8, and have a few more years of actual experience then a couple of classes and that is more then a few vets can even say, because I get them after the vets give up.


I'm not saying your info is wrong onehorse but I am just proud of her for doing SOMETHING for the poor thing


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Once again people, I did not create this thread to debate different methods of hoof abcess treatment, but more to diarise my journey with the mare. The fact that I've ended up caring for this gelding is beside the fact. In any case, apart from the one shot of penicillin I gave him, I dont see that I'm really doing anything different to what you said you would do, I have actually turned them out in the paddock since I saw some improvement in how he was walking, he is doing a lot better out and about and the abcess is continuing to discharge (poultice is GROSS every time I change it) but he still has a way to go yet. 

To get back on track, Avalon and I are getting on very well indeed  although she is a mite peeved that I have run out of carrots. Must get some on the way back from work tomorrow. I do have a question. She is a very touchy feely mare. Whenever she feels a little nervous about something new, she puts her head down and holds it close to my chest/stomach. I feel like she is looking for reassurance/comfort. My friend reckons it is a bad thing and that she should be standing back from me at all times, she said that by doing this she is invading my personal space. I'm not real sure about it, because she never tries to hit me with her jaw or anything to make me step back when she does it, she just smooches up. I do know that she arks right up when my friend handles her, my friend has a bit of a 'stronger' approach to horses (still natural horsemanship but she is just used to pushy horses) and Avs really doesnt like that. 

Your thoughts?


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

I think if your comfortable with it and the horse is too and no one is getting harmed its fine. Every horse needs a different type of hand. I had one two year old that really needed a firm hand and needed to be kept out of your space. He would get pushy and force things if you didn't keep him out. I also had another two year old that was more like your mare. He was more comfortable being close to his people if he got far away he got nervous. He needed a very soft and reassuring hand to get him to do anything. If you got firm with him he would balk. I had a trainer try a few minets on him. The guy thought he could jump on him and teach him who was boss. Well Tower(that was the horse's name) slammed him against the round pen and rolled over on him. Guess he taught him who was boss. The trainer never came back but with a soft hand I was able to ride Tower bareback with only a rope around his neck in traffic as a three year old.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

I agree, it sounds like she is just loving on you. The fact that she does it when nervous gives me pause for one reason. If she does that and you stop what you were doing to reassure her, she will soon learn that it is an effective escape and use it against your training. So I would use it more as a reward after the effort than a reassurance during. 

Great job on the feet! Congratulations!


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

Fortunately/Unfortunately, if you use a public forum as a diary, you are going to get public comment. Wether you like it or not, hard to say.

As for the gelding, he needs to be moving more, that is way longer then I would want to see him gimping from an abcess. 2 - 3 days, you should be seeing major improvement on the way he moves, still gimpy, but moving well.

As for the mare, I like a horse that drops their head, it means respect and comfort, but I don't like them that close to my head/face or you will be eating mane. I have had a blown ear drum due to a mare I knew and trained that spooked away from something into the side of my head. I had a different mare that needed to lay her head on my chest when I took her new places for a while, but we got to the point that she got to do it for a little bit, 30 seconds and then she needed to move back to her place and after a while didn't need it at all. Horses need reassurance, but it is still 1100 lbs, I have gotten enough injuries from being safe around horses that I would never encourage something that I consider dangerous or unsafe and that mare sounds like she is too close to you in some respects.



keren said:


> Once again people, I did not create this thread to debate different methods of hoof abcess treatment, but more to diarise my journey with the mare. The fact that I've ended up caring for this gelding is beside the fact. In any case, apart from the one shot of penicillin I gave him, I dont see that I'm really doing anything different to what you said you would do, I have actually turned them out in the paddock since I saw some improvement in how he was walking, he is doing a lot better out and about and the abcess is continuing to discharge (poultice is GROSS every time I change it) but he still has a way to go yet.
> 
> To get back on track, Avalon and I are getting on very well indeed  although she is a mite peeved that I have run out of carrots. Must get some on the way back from work tomorrow. I do have a question. She is a very touchy feely mare. Whenever she feels a little nervous about something new, she puts her head down and holds it close to my chest/stomach. I feel like she is looking for reassurance/comfort. My friend reckons it is a bad thing and that she should be standing back from me at all times, she said that by doing this she is invading my personal space. I'm not real sure about it, because she never tries to hit me with her jaw or anything to make me step back when she does it, she just smooches up. I do know that she arks right up when my friend handles her, my friend has a bit of a 'stronger' approach to horses (still natural horsemanship but she is just used to pushy horses) and Avs really doesnt like that.
> 
> Your thoughts?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

onehorse_2000 said:


> Fortunately/Unfortunately, if you use a public forum as a diary, you are going to get public comment. Wether you like it or not, hard to say.


Gosh thanks for pointing that out to me. I didnt realise I was posting on a public forum.

I dont know what you mean by "he needs to be moving more". He is walking round 12 acres of paddock with the other horse. What more do you want me to do. He is still limping and it is concerning me as I dont think it should have gone on this long so I am trying to arrange for a farrier/vet to come look at him but it is taking a little while to organise since I have no one to pay for the vet as the horse doesnt exactly belong to anyone. Tricky situation.

Thank you to everyone who has responded helpfully to me and kept this thread on track.

To be honest I am wondering whether to close it since it seems to be getting derailed.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

onehorse_2000 I think we all agree this has gone beyond just friendly discussion and advice. You have clearly stated your opinion on the matter and Keren has clearly stated hers in a non argumentative way. Everyone has their own way of treating things and neither of you are wrong. Enough is enough. Please don't make this a bigger deal than it is.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Keren please don't close this thread. This was meant to be a diary of sorts and a celebration of a new adventure. Don't let that get away from you. Hopefully Onehorse will respect the intent and allow this to return to it's original purpose without further comment or debate.

How is the sweet Avalon doing? Is she dealing well with your attention to the gelding?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thanks xymenah and mimi  I realised I forgot to respond to your responses about Avs needing to be close to me. I do think you are both right and xymenah, your experience is spot on what I think this situation is. I'm glad to hear someone else reassuring me that its ok. Mimi, you know I picked up on that very quickly! She sometimes gets cheeky and will stop doing what I have asked her to do, lower her head and come in for a pat. When she does that, I dont reward her, instead I ask her to do something else, then tell her to stop and then reward. Onehorse, she has a good grasp of 'back' and when I feel she is too close or for too long all I need to do is point at her chest and say back and she backs off. If I tell her to stay back she will - with a bit of encouragement. She is also very good at moving her hindquarters away from me when I ask. 

Feet progress is agonisingly slow! It kills me, but I guess at least it is progress of some sort. I can now hold each of the front feet for 3 seconds. Sounds like nothing, but I have to keep reminding myself when I first brought her in, I couldnt even touch her leg without her moving away. I am still working on her staying still while I do things around her, and I think we are making progress with that. We spent a reasonable amount of time yesterday just playing the parelli friendly game, ie. me just messing with her, without her halter on, she was very good and just stood with me. She loves loves loves to be brushed, so we started with that, and then I was just rubbing and touching all over her, under her belly, between her back legs, under her tail (because I am now confident enough to stand behind her and mess with her back end) and I had a crate there so I was stepping up and getting down etc so she would be used to some more sudden movements, and she really didnt mind, I also leaned across her back which she had no problems with, she was just happy I was paying her attention lol. She is very jealous when I am dealing with Bam Bam (the gelding) so much so that I now have to bring him into the night yard and lock her out otherwise she is a pest, she either bites his flanks so he doesnt stand still or she comes and steals my scissors, bandages or knocks over the bucket. 

She is getting so so so much better around the head, with the big ol injury she had I really couldnt blame her for being head shy, but she now lets me touch her head all over, I have also now managed to get a very quick look at her teeth, will look again and have a bit of a guess what her age might be, I did get a quick look at the galvayne's groove and I think she must be around 10 - 15 (closer to 15) going by that but it was only a very quick glance and ultimately when I get the vet out she will give me a more accurate opinion. I am still holding off on the vet, dentist and farrier until she has enough trust to be more easily handled around the feet and mouth. The last thing I want is for her to have a bad experience because they manhandle her to get the job done and I have to start all over again. I am learning to be patient! lol

Speaking of the vet, I spoke to my friend today who is the one who was possibly/maybe/thinking about taking on the gelding, and she is going to arrange a vet/farrier to attend and see to this abcess. My gut feeling is that it has stopped draining and is building up pressure again, last nights bandage wasnt as smelly as the others were. 

Also an interesting next development - there is now a third horse which has been brought up to my pasture - a TB mare who the property owner reckons he wasnt being paid agistment for, no idea where or who she came from, he didnt realise she was there, but since half the property has been sold he needed to move the animals around and contacted the people who had the other horses on agistment, they came and took them away, then he noticed this one and said "whats she doing there??" sigh. poor horses. such a buggered up situation. luckily she seems healthy and I think my neighbours friend is going to take her. She is at least branded so we can trace her back and find out her history.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

Moving more is pretty easy. He needs to move, not stand around eating, looking at the scenery, etc. Horses that hurt don't move enough. I would be trying to get 5+ miles of slow walking on him. Your soils are soft, do you have anything harder that you can get him on or you need more miles. Pretty simple. Like I said before, ponies are great for this, they like to play and move and don't take no for an answer and then I don't have to make them walk. Movement is key to recovery from an abcess.



keren said:


> Gosh thanks for pointing that out to me. I didnt realise I was posting on a public forum.
> 
> I dont know what you mean by "he needs to be moving more". He is walking round 12 acres of paddock with the other horse. What more do you want me to do. He is still limping and it is concerning me as I dont think it should have gone on this long so I am trying to arrange for a farrier/vet to come look at him but it is taking a little while to organise since I have no one to pay for the vet as the horse doesnt exactly belong to anyone. Tricky situation.
> 
> ...


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Wow, sounds like you have your hands full. Are you OK with the property owner dumping off the responsibility of the other horse onto you? Can it stay on the other side of the fence until it is taken by someone else? Who will take the responsibility if it too gets injured or sick? Or if someone doesn't want it? You have been saddled with the responsibility of caring for the gelding, even though your friend says she wants it. I am very impressed with you and your willingness to help these animals, but please be careful not to get taken advantage of. 

You are doing a great job with Avs, sounds like you are building a friendly, willing attitude. There is something special about a horse's trust isn't there? Keep up the good work!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

happily the third horse is being picked up by my neighbours friend, who has also said she will pay any bills for her if she needs them while she is here  She does have a sore eye - if it was a cow it would be pink eye, not sure if the same term applies to horses - but handily I had pink eye cream in the fridge which said it could be used for horses. And my neighbour has said she will treat her for it, so that makes that easier for me. 

Yeah I hear ya about the trust thing. I just love this girl, in a completely different way to how I love my goats. 

onehorse, he is walking around, follows the mare from one end of the paddock to the other. no I dont have any hard ground here its all sand. you are a bit confusing since you initially said you dont like to have humans physically walking a horse with an abcess but now it seems like you are telling me to do that. Anyway it doesnt matter because I've reach the limit of what I can do and its in my friends hands now to follow up with professionals.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

I don't want a human hand-walking a horse with an abcess. For therapy reasons, that horse should be walking at least 5+ miles a day, over a 24 hr period of time. First off, I know of very few owners that would hand walk a horse for that many miles. Secondly, that should be done over a 24 hr period of time, very, very few owners are going to get up at 3 in the morning to make sure that Flicka got his allotted mile walk in. Thirdly, most horse owners, when given that kind of instruction, "He needs to be walked 5+ miles." will try to get it done as quickly as possible, usually dragging the horse along and causing more damage, then helping. If a horse is giving a pasture buddy that is up 20 out of the 24 hrs in a day and encourages the horse to move, but not over do it, that is what you are looking for, quite simple actually. I want that horse moving some as many hours of the days as possible. Unfortunately, where your soil is loomy/sandy, I need to compensate for the lack of resistance, so that means more hours walking or change the surface, quite simple also.

And for the rest, unfortunately, you don't quite understand that this poor gelding is the equivalent of a diabetic with a serious abcess on their foot that apparently isn't healing. He has a metabolic issue and an abcess in a foot, that by nature has limited circulation in and the metabolic issue is not going to help that limited circulation in any way, shape, or form. This is a potential life threatening issue.

Whether you are going to be quick enough to get out of the way of a spooky but lovey horse that you allowed into your personal space is on you, dumb, but on you. But, being very correct in the way you handle a horse with the issues that this guy has, is beyond basic for his survivablity and usablity long term.



keren said:


> onehorse, he is walking around, follows the mare from one end of the paddock to the other. no I dont have any hard ground here its all sand. you are a bit confusing since you initially said you dont like to have humans physically walking a horse with an abcess but now it seems like you are telling me to do that. Anyway it doesnt matter because I've reach the limit of what I can do and its in my friends hands now to follow up with professionals.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

oh for gods sake onehorse, do you not read my posts?! he has two horses he is following around tue paddock and a vet coming to see him on the weekend. now please stop replying to my thread if you going to.continue to call.me dumb cos i really.dont.appreciate it.


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

It's great what you've done for these horses! Not everyone would do that some people find horses repulsing and super super scary. Don't let someone pull you down because of what they think is ideal for your horse.


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

One horse: I really think you should back off she's done a lot for these horses and a vets coming what's better than that?


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

onehorse_2000 We all asked you politely to stop.* Enough is enough stop. *This is not even her horse and she does not have a pony. At least this horse is getting any medical treatment at all even if its not up to your standards. I would rather not get an admin involved but if this keeps up I will. Keren does not deserve to be badgered like this.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

So true, so true, you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink and ignorance is bliss. I feel very sorry for this poor gelding and this little Appy mare is playing you.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Keren, I have not been around much to follow this, but I want to tell you.

I raised horses years ago as a kid. I also got a rescue tat was 25 and he was about dead when I got him and the vet did not think he would live more then a couple months, he was about 500-700 lbs under weight, we got two more after that.

I would like to :hug:give you a hug and thank you for all that you are doing for these horses. You could of just let someone else take care of them and you didn't.

I have a question. just thinking how things work here. How are you going to get a brand inspection done on them? I know people cut the fence around here and let the horses go but how do you get position of them to call them yours? I hope it will not be hard for you since you hav done so much for them. God Bless you.

Yes I agree the gelding is a Paint. He is beautiful and yes she is a Appy. She looks a lot like Tuscany one of my horses that we just gave away.

They look really goosd considering how bad their feet are. Someone loved them but could not afford to take care of their feet.

Also, as you are working them just to let you know. If they start licking their lips when you are doing something, that is a GREAT sign. That means they are paying attention and learning and thinking about it.

I say KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK

 When we got our horse he was so torn up, and what we used to clan out his wounds, we used a Tea Tree oil and water mix, flushed out his hoof twice a day and my gave a antibiotic.

:horse::horse:


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

onehorse_2000 said:


> So true, so true, you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink and ignorance is bliss. I feel very sorry for this poor gelding and this little Appy mare is playing you.


Now thats too much. She has gotten professional medical help for this gelding and has saved him from neglect. Just because you don't agree with how his issue is being treated doesn't mean you get to look down on her and pass judgement. And before you say that you are not, saying you are sorry for the horse implys he is not being cared for properly which certainly implies something about her actions and thus her character.

This is not HGS, and certainly not COTH (if you frequent either), and although I agree that airing anything online means you better be expecting and capable of handling any and all opinions and advice....this forum doesn't put up with harassment. If a person asks you to kindly lay off, you do, or you receive a mod warning. Just because its a public forum doesn't mean it doesn't have rules or that you can do whatever you like. I was reading this and not commenting because I thought, better to just watch and not open my mouth....but this last comment was very rude and uncalled for, IMO.

Don't let people like that get you down OP, you are doing just fine and one person's "training advice" isn't necessarily better than anothers. In the horse world you'll get so many and lots of them will conflict. Your head will spin, and people will treat you like a moron if you don't do it THEIR way. Just ignore them. Lol.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

Tis true, tis true, but the world is a 2 - way street, right OP, but those words shall not be recited.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

onehorse I dont even know what your last comment is supposed to mean. I do know what the one before it meant it as others have said it is completely uncalled for. You need to back off and you need to do it now. I was quite happy to ignore your verbal diarrhoea until that comment. Too far. I have a feeling that you are not even that interested and posting for the sake of the horses now, I think you are doing it just to get a rise out of me. QUIT IT. 

The bottom line is that no one wanted these horses. The original owner we have since found out is a junkie and has skipped town. The property owner doesnt live here and wants nothing to do with them, and is an old school farmer - he truly thinks he has done all he needs to since he feeds them (potatoes twice a week which is what he feeds his cows) and they are still upright. The horse rescues wont take them without the signature of the original owner. NO ONE ELSE was going to do anything for these horses. I could have easily looked the other way and left them out in the big pasture. Now it is my understanding that with a foot abcess they build up for quite some time and so this would have happened at some point when he was out in the middle of 300 acres of desert. Probably away from the water, no one caring for him. He would have laid down under a tree and died. I may not have a pony, and I'm not about to go out and buy one. I cannot magically turn sand into hard clay soil nor can I shift him to a different property since our entire state is sandy soils. But I am doing the best that I can for this horse and you tell me which is better for him - abandoned on 300 acres of desert with a foot abcess, or being looked after on 12 acres with a foot abcess and veterinary attention. I know which one I would choose if I was the horse. 

You may think the mare is 'playing me' (I dont even know why you think that) but she is a completely different horse now than what she was two weeks ago. Two weeks ago you couldnt run your hand down her leg. You couldnt even stroke her shoulder. You couldnt touch her head. She was extremely difficult to catch. Now I can rub her all over, she has no head issues, and I can hold her front feet up albeit for a very short time. She responds to head down, walk on, trot on, whoa and back. She faces up. She yields at the poll and yields her shoulders and hindquarters. She will lunge on a 12 ft rope at a walk and trot, both directions, with only hand signals and verbal cues.She will follow me at liberty and when she follows me she stays about a metre and a half back, giving me my space. You may call that playing me, I call that progress. Yes we have a lot of work still to do, there is a long way to go, but she is a quick learner and it amazes me how far she has come. I have been unravelling the story behind these horses very slowly and it sounds very much like she was an abused horse at one point. The fact that she is building this relationship with me means a lot to me considering what she may have been through. 

For those people who are genuinely interested in this story, unfortunately Bam Bam (gelding) has got a lot worse overnight, luckily the vet is coming out at 8am this morning (its about 6.30am here right now). She is experienced with hoof abcesses to the point where she has just had her own horse in at the specialist horse hospital at the uni here to have surgery for an abcess that spread up the bone. So she knows about abcesses. We are hoping that it is an abcess that she will be able to cut into, open up and clean out because ultimately if he needs surgery we wont be able to justify it and he will be put to sleep. So fingers crossed it hasnt got that bad. 

The other bay mare goes to her new home on thursday and the vet is going to have a quick look at her eye while she is here too. 

Lori, we are working on legal ownership. Basically here in Australia, if you dont pay your agistment bill for three months, the owner of the agistment property can enact a lien on the horse, and he becomes the legal owner. He can hold the horse hostage until you pay, he can keep the horse for himself or he can sell the horse - privately or at an auction or send them to the knackers. He has complete control over the horse. So - the property owner is the one that legally owns these horses at the moment, and he can "sell" them to us. To cover me, my friend and the third girl who is taking the bay mare, I am drafting up a few simple bills of sale that say he has sold the horse (description, identifying marks, photo, only one has a brand) to XXXXX for $5. That way, if later down the track, the original owner happens to show up and wants their horse (unlikely), it is the property owner that will need to go to court with her, not me. I will be completely covered, also if something like you said happens and the fence is cut and the horse stolen, I can then report it to police since I am the legal owner and the horse is my property. Did I explain that ok? Did it make sense? I've had help from a girl who works in a rescue about how to word signover documents so they stand up in court. 

I should have some time to spend with Avs today  anyway I'd better go out and catch the gelding and put him up in the round yard ready for the vet


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

ok so here's the update on Bam Bam the gelding since the vet just left. 

She said the abcess is in a really bad spot, being at the back of the foot quite deep. Not in an area that she could cut it to relieve the pressure. She is concerned about the degree of swelling at the back of the foot, which she said may be an indication that it is spreading into the joint/bone or it could simply be a sign that the foot is trying to re-grow healthy tissue. 

She has put him on a truckload of antibiotics - 25ml gentamycin and 25ml pennicillin daily - interesting aside, I learned how to give IV injections in horses since the gentamycin is best IV but can be done IM if I cant get the vein. She said we may as well try to heal it from the inside since this is a reasonably low cost option. She thinks if the antibiotics are going to help, that we should see improvement by monday or tuesday, and if so we will continue the antibiotics for up to two weeks. Meanwhile she wants me to continue soaking it in epsom salts, continue poulticing and bandaging, and keep him out in the big paddock following the other horses so he is using it. He is also on bute to take the edge off the pain. 

So everybody please cross your fingers that these antibiotics help - if they dont, the next step is to bring him into the clinic and do some x rays to locate the abcess, and then surgery to open it up clean out all the dead tissue etc. So I will have a chat with my friend when she comes out tomorrow about how far she wants to go with him. To be brutally honest I think if the antibiotics dont clear it up he will be PTS. 

Also interestingly the vet said he is a very old boy - at least 20. From what I have been reading on the net about aging horses when she showed me his teeth I would have to agree. But she said that shouldnt stop him as apart from the leg he seems fit and has a willing attitude and someone should get at least 5 years riding out of him if not more. She really liked him, said he's a lovely horse with good movement and pretty well put together. 

She was quite enthusiastic about all three of the horses - she said Avs is a cute little thing <3 she said with a bit of TLC and time they should all turn into quite nice horses. Provided Bam gets over this abcess of course. 

I really do love my vet!


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