# Conformation?



## Bree_6293

I have a few goats I would like to hear the pros and cons on their conformation. I am new to goats so have no idea about that yet! I am just hoping mine are ok to keep for breeding and showing as I have fallen in love with my herd! They are all australian miniature goats.

First is my newest doe. She is almost 2 years old and picture was taken just after weaning her first kid. 
"Jasmine"


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Hu, never heard of Australian Miniature goats...anyway, I'll do her from what I know of full size goats  and hope someone comes up behind me 

Pros:
-Deep jaw
-Sweet face
-Long muzzle
-Wide Forehead
-Cute ears
-Throat latch looks clean and smooth
-Neck is smooth and feminine
-Shoulder is tight with fairly sharp withers
-Neck/shoulder blends nicely
-Front legs are smooth and straight
-Good upright fore pasterns
-I like her feet
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in middle and rear barrel
-Nice length of chine
-Good spring of ribs
-Good body capacity for her size
-Rump is a nice length
-Nice incurve to thigh
-Good width between hocks
-Strong back legs
-Back legs are straight without being posty
-Back pasterns are good
-Flat boned
-Good body length


Cons:
-Head is a bit big for her body, but that might be just the angle of the picture 
-Neck is too short
-Lacks brisket
-Lacks chest floor
-Topline is uneven
-Hips are quite a bit higher then shoulders
-Rump is steep
-Lacks heel in her back feet
-Lacks power in front end assembly


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## KW Farms

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Hu, never heard of Australian Miniature goats...anyway, I'll do her from what I know of full size goats  and hope someone comes up behind me
> 
> Pros:
> -Deep jaw
> -Sweet face
> -Long muzzle
> -Wide Forehead
> -Cute ears
> -Throat latch looks clean and smooth
> -Neck is smooth and feminine
> -Shoulder is tight with fairly sharp withers
> -Neck/shoulder blends nicely
> -Front legs are smooth and straight
> -Good upright fore pasterns
> -I like her feet
> -Good depth in heart girth
> -Good depth in middle and rear barrel
> -Nice length of chine
> -Good spring of ribs
> -Good body capacity for her size
> -Rump is a nice length
> -Nice incurve to thigh
> -Good width between hocks
> -Strong back legs
> -Back legs are straight without being posty
> -Back pasterns are good
> -Flat boned
> -Good body length
> 
> Cons:
> -Head is a bit big for her body, but that might be just the angle of the picture
> -Neck is too short
> -Lacks brisket
> -Lacks chest floor
> -Topline is uneven
> -Hips are quite a bit higher then shoulders
> -Rump is steep
> -Lacks heel in her back feet
> -Lacks power in front end assembly


How can you tell she has good width between the hocks, is flat boned, has good spring of rib, a clean throat latch, and long muzzle from this photo? I'm just curious.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

See the space between her back legs in the picture? The space between her feet is a very good indication of good width between hocks.

Flat Boned: Look at her legs. Clean & sharp.

Spring of ribs: See how it goes out from her shoulder, and then how it goes back in towards her loin?

Clean Throat latch: She has a nice sharp jaw, there's no skin going right from her jaw to her neck. It's clean & sharp.

Long Muzzled: (I should have put decent length  ) the length from the point of the back of her jaw to the front is a nice length. 

Hope that makes sense!


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## Goat_in_Himmel

Being unfamiliar with the breed, I'll have a go based solely on comparing Jasmine with the picture of the "ideal" doe shown on the AMG Breed Standard page, so take this with a pound or two of salt. ;-) http://www.miniaturegoatbreedersassociation.com.au/breedstandard.htm
The basic difference I see between Jasmine and Miss Model is one of stockiness. Miss Model has a broad stance, which suggests a broad body. She has a more pronounced brisket and deeper chest floor, and is more generally round in cross section, and is more muscled than Jasmine. Jasmine is longer in the body, and lean-built; she is overall more dairy in character, to my eyes. I'm not sure that she fits the dual-purpose ideal, but I am sure she is nonetheless a sweet goat! She has a pretty face.
Really, you'd be better to get in touch with someone who is familiar with Australian Miniature Goats--preferably a breeder. But it's been a pleasure to "meet" Jasmine, and I look forward to meeting the rest of your herd.


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## KW Farms

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> See the space between her back legs in the picture? The space between her feet is a very good indication of good width between hocks.
> 
> 
> 
> I do see what you're saying about the space between the rear legs, but you generally need to look from the rear to see the width between the hocks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flat Boned: Look at her legs. Clean & sharp.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not seeing it. I mean, I see the legs, but not the flatness of bone. Isn't that something you need to feel for? Maybe I just need more work on this. In person is easier when looking at the animal and running your hands on it, but I'm just not seeing in this photo, how you can tell she's flat boned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spring of ribs: See how it goes out from her shoulder, and then how it goes back in towards her loin?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Spring of rib is not just about that though. This is something you really have to feel for from my experience, or at least see in person. You run your hand down the ribs and feel the spacing and openness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clean Throat latch: She has a nice sharp jaw, there's no skin going right from her jaw to her neck. It's clean & sharp.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmm. I guess I just can't tell from this photo. I can't see the throat latch very well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Long Muzzled: (I should have put decent length  ) the length from the point of the back of her jaw to the front is a nice length.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How can you tell this if her face is toward you though? :whatgoat: You can't see the length from the back of the jaw to the muzzle. Or I can't...
Click to expand...


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Guess some folks need hands on  I'm not a pro, so hopefully Ariella or Lacie will do her


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## Dani-1995

KW Farms said:


> Cedar Point Kikos said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do see what you're saying about the space between the rear legs, but you generally need to look from the rear to see the width between the hocks.
> 
> I am not seeing it. I mean, I see the legs, but not the flatness of bone. Isn't that something you need to feel for? Maybe I just need more work on this. In person is easier when looking at the animal and running your hands on it, but I'm just not seeing in this photo, how you can tell she's flat boned.
> 
> Spring of rib is not just about that though. This is something you really have to feel for from my experience, or at least see in person. You run your hand down the ribs and feel the spacing and openness.
> 
> Hmm. I guess I just can't tell from this photo. I can't see the throat latch very well.
> 
> How can you tell this if her face is toward you though? :whatgoat: You can't see the length from the back of the jaw to the muzzle. Or I can't...
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. I'm not familiar with this breed, nor what they are used for. But spring of rib is generally how bold they come out of their spine and how they carry the boldness all through their ribs (from spine to underneath). Otherwise I'm a boer/meat animal person so I don't really refer to the other areas listed
Click to expand...


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## Bree_6293

Thanks for all that information  some of these mini goats aware closely related to meat goats and others are closer to dairy goats. Some are used for milk production, but lots are kept as pets and showing  
My next on is a 7 yr old buck called billy 
.


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## Bree_6293

This one is gretal, a 3 year old doe


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## Bree_6293




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## Bree_6293

The little white one above is tippy, a 4 month old buck. I know it is hard to tell with a baby, but wanting to keep him as a buck so making sure it is a good idea before he gets much older.


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## Bree_6293

This one is billy as well. He is the older buck that is above too


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## kccjer

I like Gretal. She is what you should be looking for. She's got a nice length and depth of body. Her rump isn't too steep and her hind legs have decent angulation. She is "balanced". That is what I like to see. I'm not good at listing out pros and cons so I really can't do that for you....but SHE is what you want to look for. You could even translate her looks into a meat goat with little problem. A very nice commercial doe.

Your 4 month old buck....NO. While I heartily dislike the extreme uphill look of show dairy goats, this guy goes the exact opposite and is extreme downhill. Not even a good thing in a meat goat. No length to his neck and extremely steep rump. He's fuzzy and the pic is blurry so it's really hard to tell but he looks pretty posty legged too. Put his pic next to Gretal and you'll see what I'm talking about. He has no "balance" to him at all. I realize he's only 4 months old but that is still old enough to make a decision.


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## COgoatLover25

kccjer said:


> I like Gretal. She is what you should be looking for. She's got a nice length and depth of body. Her rump isn't too steep and her hind legs have decent angulation. She is "balanced". That is what I like to see. I'm not good at listing out pros and cons so I really can't do that for you....but SHE is what you want to look for. You could even translate her looks into a meat goat with little problem. A very nice commercial doe.
> 
> Your 4 month old buck....NO. While I heartily dislike the extreme uphill look of show dairy goats, this guy goes the exact opposite and is extreme downhill. Not even a good thing in a meat goat. No length to his neck and extremely steep rump. He's fuzzy and the pic is blurry so it's really hard to tell but he looks pretty posty legged too. Put his pic next to Gretal and you'll see what I'm talking about. He has no "balance" to him at all. I realize he's only 4 months old but that is still old enough to make a decision.


Why don't you like the uphill stance of the show dairy goats?


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## kccjer

COgoatLover25 said:


> Why don't you like the uphill stance of the show dairy goats?


I just really don't like it. I think it looks....awkward? stupid?....not really the words I want but... I don't mind too much when it's not super exaggerated but some of them just make me ask WHY??? LOL Just a personal preference I guess. I like it when my animals are level. I don't want them uphill or downhill....just level. Makes them look more balanced in my eyes. I feel the same about horses, cows, sheep, etc. Don't make them taller in front or back....


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## COgoatLover25

kccjer said:


> I just really don't like it. I think it looks....awkward? stupid?....not really the words I want but... I don't mind too much when it's not super exaggerated but some of them just make me ask WHY??? LOL Just a personal preference I guess. I like it when my animals are level. I don't want them uphill or downhill....just level. Makes them look more balanced in my eyes. I feel the same about horses, cows, sheep, etc. Don't make them taller in front or back....


Here's what it says in my old dairy goat judging book-

The preferred animal is the one that has higher withers than hips or pins, not because someone has decided it "looks better", but because that type of animal has more natural drainage and is less subject to breeding and digestive problems.

Ever since I had read that I have agreed with it as when I had does that were not uphill , they always had manure on their hind ends, but with my uphill does they always had clean rear ends 
Hope this helps  I'm sure everything that they look for in a dairy goat has a good reason for that goat to live a long, healthy and productive life.


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## Udderly_Obsessed

I agree with Lindsey. Some things may look a little awkward but actually they are correct for good conformation.


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## kccjer

COgoatLover25 said:


> Here's what it says in my old dairy goat judging book-
> 
> The preferred animal is the one that has higher withers than hips or pins, not because someone has decided it "looks better", but because that type of animal has more natural drainage and is less subject to breeding and digestive problems.
> 
> Ever since I had read that I have agreed with it as when I had does that were not uphill , they always had manure on their hind ends, but with my uphill does they always had clean rear ends
> Hope this helps  I'm sure everything that they look for in a dairy goat has a good reason for that goat to live a long, healthy and productive life.


That makes sense....kinda. LOL But it doesn't say they should be way uphill like some that you see. I'm ok with a slight uphill but some of these are soooo exaggerated that it doesn't make sense to me. It's just taking a good trait and exaggerating it to the point of ridiculousness. It also doesn't mean that I HAVE to like it! hehehe

But I also know that's how it tends to be with a lot of the show animals....not just goats. What is considered the "perfect" show animal doesn't always translate to what is useful in the real world. I can speak more towards cattle than goats on this. It use to be that the "perfect" show steer was tall and long and didn't finish out until they reached well over 1400 pounds. THAT was not a desirable animal to have in the feedlot. So while we're breeding show animals we also need to keep in mind the usefulness in a commercial setting.


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## Bree_6293

Yer. Finding gretals is difficult. I have her on lease for one year to get 1 lot of babies from... 
I thought my little buck was ok. I took him to a show and he received reserve champion for bucks under 6months when he was 3 months old. Maybe he won't be nice when he is older though.... 
This next one is a buck I have on lease for one year. His name is Aussie and he is almost 2. I pick him up in the next week


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## kccjer

Bree_6293 said:


> Yer. Finding gretals is difficult. I have her on lease for one year to get 1 lot of babies from...
> I thought my little buck was ok. I took him to a show and he received reserve champion for bucks under 6months when he was 3 months old. Maybe he won't be nice when he is older though....
> This next one is a buck I have on lease for one year. His name is Aussie and he is almost 2. I pick him up in the next week
> View attachment 83804


Maybe he is just going thru an awkward stage for this photo then....and maybe I'm the only one that doesn't like him. But I wouldn't keep him if he were mine.

Wow! Look at the hair on Aussie! Is he a fiber type? I like him way better. Much more balanced (although the ribbons kind of get in the way)


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## Dani-1995

Aussie is so neat looking! Wish my hair looked like his  

There is something about your small buck I dont care for. I think it is the downhill look but he could grow out of that. I doubt he'll ever be up hill but level is not out of the question.


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## Bree_6293

Yes I will get better pictures of Aussie when u get him home  he is also one that I have been able to lease for a year from the same lady  I will be using him to breed to my 7 girls during next year and then may keep a buck kid from that instead. I will also be putting Aussie to gretal once she is ready to breed again. She has had 3 kids to him now and all stunning babies!! 
These are Aussie/ gretal babies














The first one was a single doe and then the second one is part of twin does but I don't have a picture of the twin as she was sold as a bottle baby..


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## Bree_6293

This one is Hilda. She is 3 years old and in kid to Aussie due in feb/March


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## KW Farms

That first kid has such beautiful color!


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## RPoling13

I had not heard of the breed either so I looked them up. The one on this page has a downhill slope:
http://www.kazoostud.com.au/goats.htm


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## COgoatLover25

kccjer said:


> That makes sense....kinda. LOL But it doesn't say they should be way uphill like some that you see. I'm ok with a slight uphill but some of these are soooo exaggerated that it doesn't make sense to me. It's just taking a good trait and exaggerating it to the point of ridiculousness. It also doesn't mean that I HAVE to like it! hehehe
> 
> But I also know that's how it tends to be with a lot of the show animals....not just goats. What is considered the "perfect" show animal doesn't always translate to what is useful in the real world. I can speak more towards cattle than goats on this. It use to be that the "perfect" show steer was tall and long and didn't finish out until they reached well over 1400 pounds. THAT was not a desirable animal to have in the feedlot. So while we're breeding show animals we also need to keep in mind the usefulness in a commercial setting.


I agree that some of them may be a little too exaggerated for my taste but you'll notice that most of them have been "posed" and are not just standing natural, they are more than likely being "pinched" down.

Good subject to learn from


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## Barnes19

On the young buck, the 4mo, I have to query whether the problem stems partly from him stadning badly for his photo?

I note that he is walking, and the near fore leg being lifted makes him look even shorter in the front than he really is.

Also he is next to a step, so the terrain may be throwing him off ... I'm no expert?

If nothing else, his bad stance and fuzziness of the photo really don't help.

I'm in New Zealand, we don't have this breed exactly, but we have similar types, and in my experience they often have very foreshortened legs when they are young, these mature to be slight downhill goats, but not so badly as all that.

You're not the only one that doesn't like the looks kccjer, the word that sprang to my mind was 'terrible', but I'd like to see a really good photo of the same boy critiqued. The simple thing is, if a show judge thought he was ok, then its worth another look.

Bree_6293, I suggest you put him on a lead, stand him up straight, get a helper to hold him or even tie him to a gate if you have to, ensure he is on level ground and standing squarely, that his feet are trimmed in good level shape, and get a clear, non-fuzzy focus before taking the shot.

It is possible that with a good photo a fresh critique will improve matters tremendously!


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## Bree_6293

Thanks  my young boy has changed so much since the above photo too! I think I may have gotten him in an extreme ugly point of growth! I am giving him a little more time and if he doesn't improve more then he will be wethered! I didn't really want to as his petigree is very good :/ but I am putting Gretal and Aussie together in about 2/3 months time and hoping to get a buck kid from that pairing to keep  


Owned by 16 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 8 horses, 4 dogs, 6 cats, 9 parrots and too many chickens to count!


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## Bree_6293

I will get pictures of my two older does today now that they have tamed down a bit. I have only had goats a really short time (7/8 months) and my two older girls were my first mini does (before them I had some mixed breeds) 


Owned by 16 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 8 horses, 4 dogs, 6 cats, 9 parrots and too many chickens to count!


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## Bree_6293

This is zelda. She was a rescue case, along with Hilda who is below.









They are both 3/4 yrs old and I am still trying to get more condition on them. I have had them for 3 and a half months now and they are both in kid from before I got them! It's made it tricky to get the weight on :/

Owned by 16 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 8 horses, 4 dogs, 6 cats, 9 parrots and too many chickens to count!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Gretal:

Pros:
-Wide forehead
-Deep jaw
-Long muzzle
-Open nostrils
-Long jaw
-Ear set is nice
-Whole face looks alert and bright
-Neck is smooth and feminine
-Neck is a nice length
-Neck blends nicely into withers,shoulders and brisket
-Withers are sharp and clean
-Shoulder is tight and smooth
-Good brisket (her front leg is set too far forward, if taken back to proper spot, she'd have a good brisket)
-Nice depth in heart girth
-Good body capacity
-Nice depth in rear and middle barrel
-Nice length in loin
-Nice dairy wedge (don't know if that counts, lol )
-Topline is fairly level
-Topline is smooth, holding everything up and together well
-Rump is a good length
-Legs are strong
-Fore legs are straight and well built
-Fore pasterns are at a nice angle
-Hooves are deep, with good heel
-Back legs are well built
-Smooth, well blended body
-Good body length
-Overall a real nice girl!


Cons:
-Could use more brisket
-Front legs are a bit too big boned for a dairy goat (don't know if that counts )
-Rump is steep
-Neck could be a tad longer ?
-Back legs could be more angled
-Tail needs copper... ? 
-I'm not too good at cons


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## Bree_6293

This is little tippy today. He is no longer so down hill.

Owned by 16 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 8 horses, 4 dogs, 6 cats, 9 parrots and too many chickens to count!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Never mind this  It's my 'to-do' list 

-Billy (pages 1 & 2)
-Aussie (page 2)
-Hilda ( page 3/4) Can't really critique her because of the angles of the pictures )
-Zelda (page 4) Can't critique her from that angle)
-Tippy (page 4)

EDIT:
Tippy and Aussie need better pictures. As do Hilda & Zelda 
And I'm caught up to my List


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## Bree_6293

I will try and get better ones of Hilda and Zelda I just need some one to hold them as they are always trying to follow!


Owned by 16 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 8 horses, 4 dogs, 6 cats, 9 parrots and too many chickens to count!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Billy:

Pros:
-Nice, well balanced head
-Nice, lean neck - but still thick
-Good brisket
-Neck blends nicely into shoulder, withers and brisket
-Sharp withers
-Well built front legs
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-Good body capacity
-Nice length in chine
-Good body length
-Well assembled hindquarters
-Back legs are sturdy and well built
-Excellent width between hocks
-Rump width in good
-Rump width is even
-Smooth, well balanced boy 
-Nice width in forehead



Cons:
-Lacks chest floor
-Front legs look a tad weak at the knee
-Front pasterns look weak
-Back pasterns could be stronger
-Rump is short
-Lacks brisket
-Steep rump
-Tad weak in chine (nothing to really worry about though )


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## Cedar Point Kikos

This will by no means be complete, since his head is turned, there is silks on his shoulders (covering his front end) and all his hair makes it hard to critique the rest of him 

Aussie:

Pros:
-Nice width in forehead
-Muzzle is nice and wide
-Nice ear set
-Good brisket
-Good body length
-Decent topline
-Good rump length
-Nice depth in rear barrel
-Sturdy back legs


Cons:
-A tad downhill
-Neck looks short ?
-Steep rump
-Back pasterns maybe a tad weak ?


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Tippy:
Looking MUCH better! Actually a nice little buck  Angle is hard to critique though...

Pros:
-Nice body length
-Nice topline
-Uphill
-Sharp withers
-Nicely angled back legs
-Upright pasterns
-Good body depth
-Good body capacity
-Cute face 
-Nice width in forehead

Cons:
-Short rump
-Steep rump
-Lacks brisket
-Front knees a bit weak looking ?
-Can't really critique him from this picture


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