# Cuger Kids



## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Has anyone ever seen a colored 2DOX Cuger kid? I haven't. I'd like to use him on a couple of our colored does next year, but I'm worried we'd get all traditional kids.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

What's wrong with traditionals?  :lol:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Nothing... they're just not what we're looking for.


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## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

According to google images, I can't find anything directly out of him that is anything other than traditional. There is one doe Cuger's Diva that has a tiny spot that is outside her cape, but not enough to be considered a paint I would imagine (looked slightly larger than a half dollar in size). He has a website, have you tried contacting his owners?


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Hmm, no haven't contacted the owners. I've looked everywhere for colored kids from him and haven't found a single one. Cuger is a Ruger son and most Ruger line goats produce color... so not sure why Cuger doesn't produce color.


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## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

He's got grandkids on the ground that are paints... *shrugs* maybe he doesn't have any of the recessive genes that allow for colors other than the dominant traditional color.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Well, maybe we'll get lucky.  I haven't ordered straws yet but I would really like to use him on a couple does next year. Maybe if we use him on a doe with tons of color in her lines....


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

ArborGoats said:


> He's got grandkids on the ground that are paints... *shrugs* maybe he doesn't have any of the recessive genes that allow for colors other than the dominant traditional color.


I've seen some that have him as a grand sire or great grandsons that are red but I don't think any direct sons or daughters are colored


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

I looked through some of his kids registered through ABGA and didn't see any that were listed as colored, all said correct or traditional. There are over 300 though and I randomly looked at 75%. I would say the odd aren't great that you would get a colored kid


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

It also depends on how dominant the does genes are too if they're both dominant you could end up with a kid with a spotted head but still be kind of traditional


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Crossroads Boers said:


> Nothing... they're just not what we're looking for.


I was just teasing ya  Even if he doesn't produce colored kids, I still would AI a couple does to him. He's such a nice buck, it would still be worth a shot. Even if the kids aren't colored, they would be worth it to me  And you do get colored kids, well that's just icing on the cake!  It is interesting that he has colored grand kids, but no colored kids? :chin:


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## RaineyDayFarms (Oct 10, 2013)

I've had him on my list too. I really like him, even without the spots.
I think I need to get a few more does to experiment on. Lol

But I've never seen a spotted kid from him. I did almost get a traditional doe by him, she sold that day.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Yeah, our odds aren't good for getting color, but the kids would be nice regardless.  Might just give it a shot and see what we get! I should probably use a spotted doe to be sure we get full color potential. A spotted Cuger kid sure would be cool.


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

I've seen 50+ of his offspring at various sales. All where traditional and expensive.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

The kids would be knockouts for sure!!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I wonder how many colored does he has been bred to...????


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

Crossroads Boers said:


> I wonder how many colored does he has been bred to...????


Probably not many since there's so many traditionals but tht would be something to look into


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

Several paints and reds that had traditional kids on them out of him.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

GTAllen said:


> Several paints and reds that had traditional kids on them out of him.


Darn! That pretty much confirms my thoughts about him not producing color. I'm still curious to try him on a spotted doe though just to see...


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

If you do get traditional kids out of him, maybe keep one and breed to a colored goat, as it seems that his grandkids can be colored??


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It sure doesn't sound as if color is going to happen. 
He seems really dominant in producing traditionals.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I think there is science involved that I know very little about, but I think the Max Boers have a article and I think the Bon Joli lady would be worth sending an email to. 

I thought if one of the parents had color, there was a chance of color. Cuger is by Ruger, who we know can produce, or at least would not prevent, color. I would think it is still possible. But like I said, I don't know the science.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Yeah, that would be interested to see what Carol's (Bon Joli lady) thoughts on getting color from this buck and a colored doe would be. 

I can think of a lot of traditional bucks who produce color and they all have Ruger close in their lines. Must be something with Cuger's genes that is preventing color to show up in his kids.


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## DappledBoers (Feb 10, 2013)

This is interesting. I love talking and reading about genetics, especially with goats. This whole trying to getting color out of a traditional buck got me thinking. It's totally possible to get a dappled kid out of a traditional buck right. I mean i see dappled kids out of traditional does all the time. Some guy emailed me all mad about how I was giving people false information and how I needed to take my ad down and all kinds of crap because I said my traditional buck has the possibility of throwing dappled kids and he said its impossible to get a dappled kid out of a traditional goat. I just told him to get educated and have a nice day lol but I am right, right???


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## DappledBoers (Feb 10, 2013)

I found the email! Sorry not trying to steal the topic I just have to show it. I didn't say exactly what I thought I said but it's still funny (to me at least) he thinks he's telling me off but really he's just making himself look.. I don't wanna say dumb but you know what I mean!


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

DappledBoers said:


> I found the email! Sorry not trying to steal the topic I just have to show it. I didn't say exactly what I thought I said but it's still funny (to me at least) he thinks he's telling me off but really he's just making himself look.. I don't wanna say dumb but you know what I mean!
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Lol I don't want say I hate it when people do stuff like that but I do I would have asked him how he explains dappled kids coming from a whole herd of traditionals because I've heard of that happening maybe it'll happen to him someday and he will realize he was wrong (the sad part is that I'm 16 & Learned about genetics in school when I was 12 )


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

MAX Boers has a lot of interesting color stuff to read on their page: http://www.maxboergoats.com/dappledandspotted.php

A FEW FACTS 
*The more generations of spots or dapples there are behind an animal, the more likely your chances for spotted or dappled offspring. First and second-generation spots and dapples throw fewer loudly patterned offspring.

* Breeding spots to spots will often result in no spots at all.

* An animal from spotted lineage, exhibiting even one spot, carries the spotted gene and can throw spots.

* A dilute spot on a goat that does not come spotted lineage is like a red spot on a traditional goat or a star on the head of a red goat, in no way does it mean that that animal will produce spotted offspring

* Not every, or any, buck or doe bred to spots will produce spotted offspring.

* Just because you get spots one time from a breeding pair one time doesn't necessarily mean that you will get the same results the next time.

* Goats can be both spotted and dappled at the same time.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I always thought unless the goat (a buck in your case) has at least one spot on him... he doesn't carry the spotted gene and will not produce spots unless bred to a spotted doe. But after reading max's page they seem to say that spots can randomly appear. They are calling it a "cropout" kid... or a spotted kid from two parents who aren't spotted. "There are multiple genetic reasons that may cause a goat to be a cropout, originating from recessive spotted lineage. Sometimes solid-colored goats throw cropout spots or dapples because some spotting patterns are recessive genes that are not necessarily expressed unless the relevant allele is inherited from both parents. Other times a gene may be a dominant or incomplete dominant, but so minimally expressed that the goat looks solid but can pass flashy color on to its offspring."


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

DappledBoers said:


> This is interesting. I love talking and reading about genetics, especially with goats. This whole trying to getting color out of a traditional buck got me thinking. It's totally possible to get a dappled kid out of a traditional buck right. I mean i see dappled kids out of traditional does all the time. Some guy emailed me all mad about how I was giving people false information and how I needed to take my ad down and all kinds of crap because I said my traditional buck has the possibility of throwing dappled kids and he said its impossible to get a dappled kid out of a traditional goat. I just told him to get educated and have a nice day lol but I am right, right???


Yes it is definitely possible to get spotted/dappled kids from a traditional parent, if the other parent is spotted/dappled. I see that all the time too.


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## DappledBoers (Feb 10, 2013)

So many responses! That's you guys for all that information!


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

Anythings possible. 2 years ago I had a paint doe kid trips. 1 traditional buckling, 1 paint doeling, and 1 solid red. But the doe is from long lines of paints and reds. This year, covered by a different buck, she had 2 traditional doelings.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Just throwing this out there....

It sounds like to me, that the genetic rules for spots and dapples may be a little different than the rules for solids and paints.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Tenacross is right. This is what I have gathered, experimented, and concluded. :book:

There are three main patterns: solids, traditionals, and paints. We all know that color is not linked to the pattern. For example, one can breed a red spotted buck to a solid black doe and get black spotted kids.

Next, dapples and spots aren't necessarily a pattern but a variant, accessory, or sub-pattern. They follow no rules. Spots can show up on any pattern and any color no matter what as long as spots and dapples are in their background. Spots aren't attached to patterns just like colors aren't attached to pattern either.

For example: a red traditional could be bred to a solid black dappled boer and produce a black spotted traditional or maybe even a spotted solid red. The spots can swap from one pattern to the next.

An example is our doe Rubi when she was a month old.







Her sire is a solid spotted red and her dam is a black dapple. There is no explanation for her odd spots, but I know she got her solid pattern from her granddam.

Another example is Kaz:







Her dam is a red paint and her sire is CRCR Coppertop (solid spotted red for anyone who doesn't know). Her paint pattern is from her dam, but her spots are from her sire.

If you want a colored kid such as a solid, you'll most likely be out of luck because he probably is fully dominant in his traditional gene, which is possible. He may never ever throw a solid, but that doesn't mean the the dam cannot throw the gene and pass it onto the grandkids. :wink:

However, if you want spots, I feel as though that is an entirely different ballgame. We don't know if he can throw spots because he has rarely been bred to spotted or dappled does. He could support the gene because spots don't conflict with the dominant traditional pattern like traditionals do with the solid pattern.

You may not get a solid (even though that could happen), but you have a good chance of having a spotted traditional, possibly a spotted paint, or if you are lucky enough---a solid spotted.

*Summary: All of this means you can get the traditional or paint pattern from the sire and the spotted gene from the dam. And who knows: Maybe you'll get the first solid out of Cuger!*:clap:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Could Cuger be homozygous for traditional?? Is there even such a thing? I know there is homozygous color patterns in horses...


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

Crossroads Boers said:


> Could Cuger be homozygous for traditional?? Is there even such a thing? I know there is homozygous color patterns in horses...


It's possible with everything from plants to animals


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

So all of our "scheming" could be totally pointless if he is homozygous... That would be a bummer. I still want to AI a spotted doe to him and see what happens.


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

Crossroads Boers said:


> So all of our "scheming" could be totally pointless if he is homozygous... That would be a bummer. I still want to AI a spotted doe to him and see what happens.


It wouldn't hurt try and like countrylineacres mentioned you may be the first to have a colored son/daughter


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Well he could be homozygous for the traditional pattern but still throw spots! Or he could throw a solid. Just a matter the the perfect genes matching up. There's not always a definite answer.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Crossroads Boers said:


> So all of our "scheming" could be totally pointless if he is homozygous... That would be a bummer. I still want to AI a spotted doe to him and see what happens.


Why not breed Dandi to him and expect to be standing at the front of the line?

Sorry, couldn't help myself... :wink:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Ok, that's good to know.  

Dandi is a doe we definitely want to AI to him next year.  Her breeding status is looking really iffy right now though. We've been to the vet 6 times now with no good results and he basically told us yesterday that there is nothing else he can do.   He is going to call OSU and see if they can help us get her healed. We're super worried and disappointed.


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## DappledBoers (Feb 10, 2013)

What's wrong with her?


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

She has a uterine infection that won't leave.  The vet keeps trying to infuse antibiotics into the uterus, but he can't get through her cervix. He thinks her cervix may be damaged, although I don't know how that would have happened since she has never kidded before. We've had her at the vet in every stage of heat and still no luck. Antibiotic injections didn't work before but we are trying that now with a different antibiotic.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

This is what we did for alpacas to get the cervix open. We did 2 days in a row of Estrumate. Specifically Estrumate. Then the day they would be receptive, the vet would come out. We would use a male to get the cervix open and stop the breeding. Then the vet would insert a tube that would stay in for a week and the antibiotics would get into the uterus that way. 

I would highly recommend your vet talking to an alpaca expert. We see way more uterine infections in alpacas so all kinds of studies and treatments have been done.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Wow, that's interesting. We have been using estrumate to bring her in heat, but only one injection of it. I'm not sure if my vet knows any alpaca experts, but I'll mention it to him.


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## DappledBoers (Feb 10, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear that! How did you find out she had it?


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Oh geeze. So disappointing when vets can't get anything right. I'm pretty sure that every time a doe goes through a heat they are in effect cleaning out that uterus. If you were to give the right systemic antibiotic and she went through a couple heats, she should clean out without being infused.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

DappledBoers said:


> I'm sorry to hear that! How did you find out she had it?


She was having discharge that smelled bad. That's when we decided to bring her in and the vet confirmed our suspicion of a uterine infection.  That was a month ago and we still haven't gotten it cured. Very discouraging.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> Oh geeze. So disappointing when vets can't get anything right. I'm pretty sure that every time a doe goes through a heat they are in effect cleaning out that uterus. If you were to give the right systemic antibiotic and she went through a couple heats, she should clean out without being infused.


Dandi has been in heat 4 or 5 times now since we discovered the infection, and usually only 1 week apart. The vet did a culture/sensitivity test on the bacteria the first time we brought her in, so we know the correct antibiotic to use. Right now she is getting Penicillin 2x a day.


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

Try "Goat Vet Corner" group on Facebook might be a place to ask a few questions to see if they have anything further to try. 20 goat vets on it, most who own goats or treat a lot of goats. Very professional.


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## DappledBoers (Feb 10, 2013)

Crossroads Boers said:


> She was having discharge that smelled bad. That's when we decided to bring her in and the vet confirmed our suspicion of a uterine infection.  That was a month ago and we still haven't gotten it cured. Very discouraging.


That really sucks. She's a pretty doe. Sure you'll get it fixed somehow!

But that's good to know about the symptoms you noticed before taking her to the vet. One more thing I'll be ready for if it ever happens to me!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm not on FB, GT. Thanks though. 

I talked to the vet again today and he said the culture test showed Arcanobacterium pyogenes. I googled it and it has been interested to read about, but I'm not finding much about uterine infection. 

Thanks.  Hopefully you'll never have to deal with this DappledBoers!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Arcanobacterium pyogenes causes sporadic abortion at any stage of pregnancy. Rarely, the incidence in a herd may reach epizootic levels. The bacterium is present in the nasopharynx of many normal cows and in abscesses. It is not normally present, even as a contaminant, in fetuses or fetal membranes, and isolation is almost always significant. It gains entry to the bloodstream and causes an endometritis and placentitis, which is diffuse with a reddish brown to brown color. The fetus is usually autolyzed, with fibrinous pericarditis, pleuritis, or peritonitis possible.

Bronchopneumonia may be evident on histopathology, but A pyogenes is best cultured from placenta or abomasal contents. Abortion is usually sporadic, and no effective bacterin is available

And here is a link to more about it in cows (it was faster than typing it from my books) ~ http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/man...attle.html?qt=Arcanobacterium pyogenes&alt=sh


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks for the info Lacie.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Crossroads Boers said:


> Dandi has been in heat 4 or 5 times now since we discovered the infection, and usually only 1 week apart. The vet did a culture/sensitivity test on the bacteria the first time we brought her in, so we know the correct antibiotic to use. Right now she is getting Penicillin 2x a day.


I'm a little confused. If the vet can't get through the cervix to infuse, how the heck did he get through to get a culture? As you know, I am not a vet, but if Dandi is coming in heat once a week, I would say she is also cystic.

And, if the the vet is not culturing material from inside her uterus, then he can't be sure the uterus is even infected. (amateur opinion)

Is the Pen G helping with the discharge? *If it is,* I would put her in with the buck when she's in heat and give a shot of cystorellin after you see a cover.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Dandi's heats are forced from estrumate injections.... they're not natural. Sorry, I should have said that. He has been giving us the injection to give her 5 days after she comes out of heat. 

The culture sample was easy to get since the discharge is making it through the cervix. He didn't have to get through to take a sample. 

We just started the Pen. injections on Thursday, and she still has discharge today... so, not sure if it's helping.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> And, if the the vet is not culturing material from inside her uterus, then he can't be sure the uterus is even infected. (amateur opinion)


I think he can see the discharge coming through the cervix.... which means it's coming from the uterus. Right? Or am I wrong?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Have you guys tried a uterine flush with tetracycline after you force a heat? The cervix should be open enough to do a flush, when she is in heat.


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## RaineyDayFarms (Oct 10, 2013)

Aw, poor girl  I hope they can figure it out. 
If you'd like I can ask on the goat corner FB page? I'm not sure how experienced they are in this area, but I don't mind asking.

You definitely should try cuger on a spotted doe. It would be awesome if you got spotted kids. And I'd be more than happy to take any traditional kids off your hands


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Crossroads Boers said:


> I think he can see the discharge coming through the cervix.... which means it's coming from the uterus. Right? Or am I wrong?


Probably right. 
I'm so sorry this is happening with Dandi. She is one of my favorites.

ETA. You might ask your vet about adding gentamicin. It is labeled for uterine infections, it is often used in conjunction with penicillin and I have read a couple of articles saying that Arcanobacterium pyogenes may be susceptible to it.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Have you guys tried a uterine flush with tetracycline after you force a heat? The cervix should be open enough to do a flush, when she is in heat.


No, haven't tried that. The vet can't get a sheath through her cervix even when she's in heat... but maybe we're missing the best time. He has flushed saline and antibiotics when he thought he was even a tiny bit through, but don't know if that worked at all as it was all coming right back out the speculum.



RaineyDayFarms said:


> If you'd like I can ask on the goat corner FB page? I'm not sure how experienced they are in this area, but I don't mind asking.


No, that's ok. Thanks though.  I know what we need to do and I'm thinking it's just a matter of getting a sheath through the cervix and having the right equipment. In order to do that I think we'll have to do this whole thing at home ourselves. The vet is 45 minutes away so taking her back and forth trying to catch the right stage of heat just isn't working. Supplies from Biogenics are on the way... I ordered a few very helpful things (like a speculum light) that the vet didn't have, so I'm pretty hopeful that we'll have better luck than he did. We've got one more estrumate shot to bring her in heat and will give that on Tuesday and go from there. I'll share our success or lack of it next week, but until then I'd kind of like to leave this thread and commenting alone. I'm still trusting our vet to help us cure this if just by phone now. Thank you all so much though for the advice.



Tenacross said:


> Probably right.
> I'm so sorry this is happening with Dandi. She is one of my favorites.
> 
> ETA. You might ask your vet about adding gentamicin. It is labeled for uterine infections, it is often used in conjunction with penicillin and I have read a couple of articles saying that Arcanobacterium pyogenes may be susceptible to it.


Thanks Tim. I'm planning on calling our vet again on Monday and will see if they have that.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Ok, well Caroline and I did a successful antibiotic infusion into Dandi's uterus last night. :wahoo: Not a drop came back out. Our vet tried over and over and over again and couldn't do it.... so, either he doesn't know what he's doing, or we had pure luck getting through the cervix last night with no problem. The discharge had stopped for 2 or 3 days so we thought maybe the penicillin injections had made the infection go away, but then last night she had a tiny bit of that discharge starting again so we decided to try an infusion on our own. And it worked!  We're very hopeful this will do it now and are thanking God for our success. 

We'll try another infusion and/or flush tonight so hopefully that will go ok. ray:


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

That's great!! Hopefully it does the trick!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Awesome! I normally do flushes for 4 days. 7cc of la200 or similar, and the other 28cc of sterile water. Fingers crossed it clears up!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

We only have about 30 cc's of Sterile saline left right now. Would it work to sterilize water by boiling it and using that? (Of course after it cools down) Also I am wondering how to even do a flush. How does all of the stuff come back out? The sheaths that I am using are pretty short and can't go in all the way through the cervix without me loosing the end. Would it still work to flush if I'm only in the 2-3rd ring of the cervix?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Yep, you can use boiled water after it cools. Her body will absorb some of it, but the rest will come back out when she squats to pee and such. Basically all you need is that antibiotic sloshing around the uterus to kill the bad bacteria in there and then draining out. If you aren't getting backflow, you're good to go, it's in far enough it's all going into the uterus. 
What you're doing _is_ a flush  Depositing antibiotics into the uterus, and letting it "flush" the bacteria out


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Ok THANKS!!!!!


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

That's GREAT news Victoria!! Great to hear!!!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

We did a flush 3 days in a row and it went well all 3 times. Hopefully this will do the trick! Now we need a semen tank...


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

:stars: Yay!! Fingers crossed for you guys! Let hope this does it, I want to see some Dandi kids! :greengrin:


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Dandi is going to make some AWESOME babies, and she's going to be a great mother


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Glad it went well.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

On Friday morning Dandi was in a raging heat again...??? Not sure why she was back in so soon. She was trying to climb the electric wire lined fence to get to the buck and he was doing the same trying to get to her. I had never seen either of them act so crazy. I had to leave Friday and just got back this afternoon, and she has dried discharge on her vulva and tail. That was really discouraging as it looks just like what we've been seeing for weeks. Which means the infusions might not have done anything.... or, the discharge could just be from her being in heat. She's out of heat now and I cleaned her off, so we'll know soon what the discharge is from. ray:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

It very well could be from being in heat. I noticed I have a few very messy doelings this year when they are in heat, like to the point they look like they have been with the buck messy. I have my fingers crossed that's what's going on.
And what's going on with dazzle? You might have mentioned how that was going but I missed and and was just wondering


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Yeah, hopefully that's all this is.  

We finally just put a CIDR in Dazzle on Wednesday. Non of the injections (lute and estrumate) were bringing her in heat. She had some clear discharge after the estrumate injection, but she never flagged and the buck showed zero interest. So we're hoping using a CIDR will get her cycling again.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I hope these 2 girls stop giving you trouble and just get bred with some beautiful kids already lol 


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