# How common are CAE, CL and Johns diseases?



## LordDreyfus (Jan 9, 2014)

Ok. I have a problem. I have a bottle baby buckling (soon to be a wether) that I purchased before I knew about these diseases. I got him from a local homesteading farmer. They raise sheep and poultry as well. I didn't see cattle. His parents have never been tested. I was told that his mother was old and didn't produce enough milk for babies anymore. He is 3 weeks old and I'm pretty attached to him. His parents seemed healthy to my untrained eye.

Since I learned of these diseases I've purchased another bottle baby from a breeder with a herd that's tested negative. Tested on a yearly basis.

From what I've heard he will be 8 months to a year before I can test him for those diseases. How concerned do I need to be about him being infected and possibly infecting his new roommate?

I'm not overly concerned with the CL, because I think that would be easier to catch in the parents. The Johnes and CAE worry me.

I know that the $ smart thing to do is to get rid of my untested goat. Like I said though, I'm attached to him.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

test him...its very cheap and you can do it and send it yoursel...especially this time of year when its cold most places so you don't have to pay for overnight shipping. Find the groove in his neck for the jugular vein (its a vein, not an artery) by following his pupil down the side of his neck. Press your thumb into this groove. The vein should bulge and roll a little...shave the area if necessary. Use a long needle and a 6cc syringe ( I use 20g) and insert it into the vein while holding it with your thumb and an upward angle...yes someone has to hold the goat...it helps to tile their head up and away from you a little. Draw back on the needle to see if you are in. It is OKAY to reposition the needle once in the neck on a goat...once you take the needle out, you need a new one...when you are in, you will see blood in the hub...pull back and get at least 3CC...I pull back further because I get bubbles sometimes. Then...insert the needle into the top of a RED TOP TUBE for blood collection (you can buy on amazon or from Biotracking) and let it fill with the blood (at least 3CC). Pull the syringe out, label the tube with his name and put it in the fridge until ready to ship. When it's shipping time, wrap it in a couple paper towels and double bag in sandwich bags. I use USPS (post office) flat rate $5 ship boxes. You can send it to WADDL and do the biosecurity screen (google WADDLE, they are in WAshington....$10 for the acession form, $6.30 for out of state CAE/Johnes...don't bother CL unless you want, costs more)...or you can send it to biotracking not for a pregnancy test obviously but for a $4 CAE test...they do NOT test for Johnes or CL. If you really need just one red top tube I can send you one at cost+shipping


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

I've seen kids test positive at his age for CAE...you can always retest if its borderline or decide to get rid of him I would personally not bother on Johnes or CL but I would test for CAE now AND at 6 months


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## LordDreyfus (Jan 9, 2014)

Is he old enough to test? I was told you couldn't test him till he's a year old?


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## LordDreyfus (Jan 9, 2014)

Ok. I'll start working on that ASAP


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Sometimes...if you offer to help draw the blood the farmers will let you go back and help test their parent if you are concerned and they have not done so...but, for $4 test, a few for shipping and a vial...I'd go right ahead and test...they wil give you the percentage titers and you can compare to your clean kid and see if they look different by more than a few numbers or even borderline. Then, you can decide if you are comfortable with the results. We tested a 8 week old doeling we were interested in before we bought and she was a STRONG positive. If it's positive, sure there's a *chance* it could turn negative later...but I'd cull...If it's negative and really low...I'd say chances are good it stays that way and you can restest at 6 months of age to be sure. Plus...it's easier to learn to draw on kids since they can be held...good practice for you.


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## LordDreyfus (Jan 9, 2014)

What is borderline and what is low? Just how common are + tests? I read that it used to be as high as 90% but now?


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## LordDreyfus (Jan 9, 2014)

Could he pass it to her? I thought CAE was almost exclusively through milk?


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

They don't know the exat % because it's not reported...but some think 60-65%. The chances may be low of him passing it on...but there are enough studies to show it CAN happen to make me want CAE free goats. For johnes I think fecal tests are needed unless there's a suspected active infection of MAP in a deteriorating symptomatic animal. All I know is if I had a bucking that age that was already positive that would inidcate a strong CAE presence and I would want them separated. It's all of course up to you and what you are comfortable with right now. I *almost* bought the 8 week old doeling because her dam had a nice udder, no evidence of arthritis and was 5 years old...but decided to be good and test first...and she was positive and was moreso in 6 months on retest by her owner...before that I wasn't too worried...had never seen a case. Then...I know of a friend who had tested negative does. They did 2 shows that year and have a closed herd. next year one doe tested positive and even moreso 6 months later...(highter titers)...meaning...though she wasn't nusring or anything...she probably caught it somehoe at the show...maybe licking a panel with milk on it or licking the hand of someone who had just milked a positive doe...


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

He should be at least 8 months before testing. There's really no telling if the herd he came from is diseased or not. If the goats looked healthy, good coats, good weight, the place was clean, etc. then you're probably okay, but you just never know sometimes.


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## LordDreyfus (Jan 9, 2014)

Pan's results came back negative. Although not in the clear, his chances are MUCH higher than before. Had he been positive it would have been a long 7 months waiting on his mother's antibodies to work their way out of his system to get an accurate retest.

I'll be retesting Pan and doing a first test on Bell in September. She came from a CAE negative herd so I'm not as worried.

Thanks for the support everyone!


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## 91baby (Jan 15, 2013)

The best thing would be to get the mother tested. The farmer will probably be willing if you pay for it. That is the only way to be sure he is clean. Testing before 6 months often gives a false positive due to antibodies from dam.


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## LordDreyfus (Jan 9, 2014)

I offered to pay to have the mom tested. Unfortunately she was sold. 

I'm aware of the possible false positive. That's why I'm glad for his negative result. Saves me 7 months of worrying waiting for the moms antibodies to pass.

Like I said, he's not in the clear yet, but it's much better odds now.


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