# Cure for CAE?



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Anybody hear about this? It was on a yahoo email list this morning. This guy claims he has developed a cure for CAE. http://askahomeopath.net/HOMEOPATHICSFORTHECAEPROBLEM.html

Thoughts?


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

The fact that she doesn't know the correct name of CL, and rather than mentioning the retroviral cause of CAE starts talking the usual "toxic substances" blah-blah does not inspire confidence. 
I have done considerable reading on the subject of homeopathy. My doctor, who is a recognized mainstream internal medicine MD as well as a homeopathic MD, has failed to convince me that homeopathy is little more than snake oil. The reason the FDA does not regulate homeopathic preparations is because there's nothing in them but water in the case of liquid medicines and glucose in the pill form. Still, it would be interesting to hear someone with actual experience in this treatment. Thanks for posting it!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I saw it this morning , I only scanned through it .
Gotta sit down and read it yet , looks interesting though.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

The article failed to convince me of its worth, it didnt explain CAE well at all, CAE is more than a hard udder....although it said which pill to use for what..it didnt explain why it works or how it heals....Im all for Homeopathic solutions..many have benefits and cures...but the article left me wanting more proof..


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

happybleats said:


> The article failed to convince me of its worth, it didnt explain CAE well at all, CAE is more than a hard udder....although it said which pill to use for what..it didnt explain why it works or how it heals....Im all for Homeopathic solutions..many have benefits and cures...but the article left me wanting more proof..


I agree.......honestly it seemed to say a lot about nothing...lol


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I agree that it doesn't sound very professional or convincing. I know next to nothing about homeopathy. It never made much sense to me. BUT...you guys know I'm not one to discount a possible cure.  Living creatures are mysterious things, and we don't know everything about diseases and cures!

Some things about it do look typical of a "quack," such as:



> To Completely CURE CAE do this:
> Go to this Website: http://www.ainsworths.com/index.php
> 
> Then put this in the search space: Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis
> ...


Ummm yeah. That's exactly the kind of bait you shouldn't swallow at first glance!
However, that is by no means PROOF that the cure doesn't work. I'd like to hear if anybody else has tried it and whether it worked. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, ya know...


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

That link listed at the bottom leads to Ainsworth Homeopathy in England. Apparently a pretty well respected homeopathic pharmacy. The website is confusing and the remedy is hard to find, dosage is unclear etc. I have emailed them to ask for clarification and whether they ship to the US. We'll see..


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

Wow, you aren't going to believe the reply I got from "Dr." Irish. Here is the email I sent her:
_
Hello Dr. Irish,
I have been reading your page on Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis. I have a few questions and comments if you have the time.
I am curious why you don't mention the retroviral cause of CAE. In addition, you only discuss hard udders as symptomatic, rather than fully describing the neurological (encephalitis) effects it can have on kids and the debilitating arthritic symptoms it manifests in adult goats. You don't describe the ELISA test as definitive for diagnosis. There are myriad causes of udder congestion besides CAE, is it possible that your remedies listed are better suited to non viral causes?

In your link to Ainsworth's at the bottom of your page, you proclaim that they have a PERMANENT CURE. Their website does not list ingredients for their remedy. Do you know how their treatment differs from yours?

I appreciate your attention to the needs of goat owners and my comments above are not meant as criticism, only inquiry. I am willing to entertain learning about any possible treatment, let alone cure for this heartbreaking condition. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
My signature and contact information_

I didn't consider this confrontational, but I am sometimes direct to a fault. Here is the reply she sent moments ago:

_Are you a Member of Mensa?
I am.
Your high handed attqack on my paper is bunk.
Had you just asked me I would have discussed it but in your case, since you made sure to point out that I omitted things that "I should have put in" please ignore my paper. Please do not go back on my site. You are not welcome.
Get someone else to help your goats.
I hope they survive with your worthless treatment.
Mine would work.
Dr Alva Irish
office 864-605-0474
Http://www.askahomeopath.net_


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

Wow that is appalling! Offense is the best defense eh... 

ETA what kind of weirdo calls her self a Doctor, when shes really not? Thats just really weird. Delusions of grandure much? LOL.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

:shocked: Wow!


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## DLeeB (Apr 5, 2012)

I would definitely think that is the response of a liar and I'm not usually that direct. My parents recently had dealings with a crooked contractor and when confronted he reacted just about the same as this woman. Good you didn't buy any of her junk.


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

*I answered her back*

Here's my reply to her:

_Wow, who would have thought that a supposed professional would take such questioning personally. I fail to see what being a member of Mensa has to do with anything. When's the last time you actually impressed anyone with that tidbit? Surely a really really smart member of Mensa would notice that there is no 'Q' in the word 'attack'. 
High handed? In what way? I believe in directness in communication. You seem more than a tiny bit defensive here Doctor. As I said in my first mail, I meant no criticism. I am unsure what you mean by my "worthless treatment". I specified no treatment. My herd is negative, but I am contacted fairly often by other owners desperate for anything that will help their CAE positive animals and as a result am always keeping my eye out for possibilities. This is a heartbreaking disease and one that causes desperation in owners. I can only surmise, given your refusal to discuss the issues I brought up, that you are capitalizing on that desperation. Sadly for you, the internet is a wide open place and if I choose to visit your site, I will. Not only that, I plan to link to it on my blog, warning others away. I have spent several years investigating homeopathy and have tried my best to see it as a viable alternative to conventional medicine. Too bad your defensive refusal to discuss the matter means one more check mark in the "SNAKE OIL" column.

Good luck,
BW_


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

DLeeB said:


> I would definitely think that is the response of a liar and I'm not usually that direct. My parents recently had dealings with a crooked contractor and when confronted he reacted just about the same as this woman. Good you didn't buy any of her junk.


She charges over a hundred bucks for hair sampling, a new-agey diagnostic technique that has been discredited for decades. PT Barnum was right. There's a sucker born every minute.


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

She just sent me another mail, threatening to sue me if I disparage her or her "papers". She's blocked in my inbox now. 

Mommy mommy make the bad lady go away!!!


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

elchivito I LOVE your response to her


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

I don't believe it for a minute. CAE is a retro virus, just like HIV/Aids. What makes it impossible to cure is the fact that it can change its basic type when a medication comes close to killing it. Maybe when they have a cure for HIV and can figure out how to cure an ever changing virus, there will be hope for CAE.

That person sounds like a whack-job, you know, the type who would stalk you on cyber space, harass you and make your life miserable. Stay farrrrrrr away from this nut case.


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

I love your response to her as well!! That was VERY well written. I am shocked at how people act that are supposed to be "professionals". :shocked:


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## TrinityRanch (Mar 26, 2013)

elchivito said:


> _Are you a Member of Mensa?_
> _I am._
> _Your high handed attqack on my paper is bunk._
> _*Had you just asked me I would have discussed it but in your case, since you made sure to point out that I omitted things that "I should have put in" please ignore my paper.* Please do not go back on my site. You are not welcome._
> ...


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## OwnedByTheGoats (Mar 7, 2013)

TrinityRanch said:


> elchivito said:
> 
> 
> > _Are you a Member of Mensa?_
> ...


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

All I can say is WOW WOW, seriously. If she believed in her treatment she would have been happy to discuss to anyone who is interested. You were clear with your email and not discrediting her in the first email. As for threatening to sue. Well I would think if you had a link and posted your emails she couldn't do anything. She replied to you. I wonder how many people have already spent hard earned money to her.


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

That what I love about TGS! Goat people protecting and helping each other!I am so glad that I found this site!:stars::fireworks::leap:


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

> Thanks for this, elchivito. Made me laugh!! How did someone this immature make it through college?


Prolly one of those print your own diploma places.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I would think anybody who stands by their work would welcome questions pertaining to it. JMO
Saved me from having to read the article , lolol
I would much rather read all about on here


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Amazing what and who is out there
I am very into the whole natural/homeopathic thing. Lots of herbs and spices work well for many ailments. But this kind of whacko is what gives natural medicine another black eye. Thanks for posting your emails and her replies so we could see what is actually out there. I am curious about her *papers* but not curious enough to check them out.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Considering CAE is a virus from what I understand, a cure is extremely unlikely, let alone a homeopathic one.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

lol....I knew a guy like that...tons of college degrees...no tact..quick to criticize others without the dignity to except it themselves...Sounds like to me she was caught with her degree down and isn't happy about it...
thanks for sharing elchivito


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

My pleasure. So much of what we do as goat owners is based on anecdotal evidence rather than science, simply because in this country there is no ongoing research in goat health. Even though goats are found as test animals in virtually every veterinary school, most vets profess ignorance or are unwilling to spend the same time and energy on a goat that they are on a horse or some wheezing little lapdog. We have enough trouble as it is. Fraudsters need to be exposed for the snakes they are.


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

luvmyherd said:


> Amazing what and who is out there
> I am very into the whole natural/homeopathic thing. Lots of herbs and spices work well for many ailments. But this kind of whacko is what gives natural medicine another black eye. Thanks for posting your emails and her replies so we could see what is actually out there. I am curious about her *papers* but not curious enough to check them out.


I use herbal and natural remedies too. I cured my gout with turmeric extract for example. There is nothing natural about homeopathy. It's based entirely upon unproven and discarded 19th century ideas. It works on humans due to the placebo effect. An "expert" tells you you'll feel better, so you do. As I said earlier, the reason Homeopathic remedies aren't regulated by the FDA as medicines is because they don't contain anything worth regulating.


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## bernie35 (May 15, 2013)

*The Wonders of Homeopathy*

I have used it not only for my family but for one of my goats. Dr. Irish suggested a remedy for a goat of mine that was not very friendly toward people. The goat was not an old goat, but just had one of those personalities. Over time, Daisy became much friendlier. I grew to love her so much.

I have used homeopathics for swelling (Arnica Montana) from bumps. If blood is present, you can't use it until the blood has stopped. It has worked wonders. Our son used to have a pediatrition who was also a homeopath. She grew up in Russia and came to the U.S. She told me that she has seen large bumps on children's foreheads go down before her very eyes from using Arnica Montana.

Also, I have used Rhus Tox for arthritis when your aches feel better from movement and warmth. It really works. The nice thing about homepathy is that it's very safe. Even if you use a remedy that turns out not to be the best for you, it won't hurt you.

In defense of Dr. Irish, have you ever typed something and the stupid spell check comes up (like Charters) and somehow your word gets misspelled and you send the message? I recently used Charters and didn't realize I approved the system to spell something incorrectly. I was so embarrassed. When you love an animals so deeply, wouldn't you like to try something that might work? I truly believe there is a science behind homeopathy that hasn't been discovered yet. I don't think the technology has been invented to understand the scientific mechanisms that make it work. Also, in defense of homeopathy, there is a heart medicine made by scientists that kind of work like homeopathy. That poison dart frog poison is used and is diluted tons of times. Then voila! It's a heart medicine. What would give someone a heart attack and poison someone to death will all of a sudden when diluted, save a person's life....who da thunk?

Please don't be so hard on Dr. Irish. Give her a chance. She's a really nice person. If Ainsworth Homeopathics is selling her remedy, then she's probably on to something. What if using the remedy she invented (sold by Ainsworth) saves your goat? Also, homeopathics works differently than drugs. It takes more time for them to work.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

bernie, I dont think Dr Irish gave elchivito a fair chance in her reply, so why should elchivito give her a fair chance? Elchivito wrote an initial very polite email asking for more information and was shot down in flames. 

As for myself, not only is the "paper" full of glaring grammatical errors it also does not accurately discuss the issue and solution at all meaning it really cannot be called a "paper". However besides all that, until I see test results that say CAE + and then after treatment CAE -ve then I'm not going to believe it. 

If a hard edematous udder at freshening is what the good Doctor believes is CAE, and this hard udder is cured by the administration of the pills, without test results showing those does are CAE +ve I am inclinded to believe she is (either inadvertently or intentionally) treating cases of either mastitis or udder oedema (also known as congestion or 'flag'), both of which can respond rather well to herbal treatment. 

Without test results before and after administering treatment, this paper and the treatment itself is worthless.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Wow... Some people..


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Bernie, thank you for your clear, collected defense of Dr. Irish.
Logically, this less-than-professional article and the rude emails don't prove that the cure works. They also don't prove it doesn't work. They don't _prove_ anything.
I'm all for finding a cure for CAE, and I'm not going to close my mind to something just because somebody made some mistakes in promoting it. I still would like to find out if anyone has tried Dr. Irish's cure. Unfortunately, I probably will never personally email Dr. Irish because honest questions are answered so scathingly.
People who are quick to close their minds are the people who opposed Robert Fulton, the Wright Brothers, Joseph Lister, etc. Don't be too quick to close your mind!
But I'm also leery of "miracle cures." We just need more evidence.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Just read through this ... her reply to the email was completely unwarrented. The email sent to her was very polite. I am all for natural cures ... I have a great interest in studying herbs, and some of the best treatments that have worked for my herd have been herbal. However, I am not willing to buy from someone who cannot support their product, let alone act in grace and maturity to those who inquire.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I am not against natural healing...but as stated already this treatment has no proof..sure no proof either way but if you are going to present a cure then present the facts too...when I am asked why do give CD Antitoxin I explain why..I dont attack the person for questioning my treatment..as goat owners we have had to learn and treat our own animals because most vets refuse to learn more about these wonderful animals...we research , we treat, we learn through success and sadly some failures..but because we are basically on our own..we need answers..we need the why and how...we need to understand why we give certain meds and treatments and how its going to do it job.. This Doctor instead shut her down and refused to explain and was insulted...that to me sends warning flags...If she wants to help the goat community then she needs to be mor forth coming...


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

^Oh, I totally agree with both of you. After all this I don't place a high value on what she says, and I certainly won't do business with her.
I was just pointing out that it's not sensible to completely dismiss a possible cure for something like this, when _we don't even know if it has been tried!_
So what if somebody was rude and unprofessional? Somebody could be rude and unprofessional about, say, Banamine, and that doesn't change its effectiveness.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree with you milk maid...we can not close our minds to new ideas...but it needs to be presented with a proof study not just some randome name maker who says it works...Im all for finding cures and naturally is even better...we use Ess. Oils for their healing and benefit uses..we use herbs a lot..I make our own tooth paste, body soaps, laundry soap and lotions...we make a cough remedy from common kitchen goodies....so yah...I am all for going natural...: )


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I was very skeptical from the beginning, but after seeing her replies to simple, polite questions...it makes me even more skeptical. Actually, I don't even believe this is a cure at all. Just my opinion. Someone who stands by what they're doing and believes fully in it and knows it works...they're going to educate, they're going to explain and they're going to be happy when someone shows interest and asks questions. Her reply tells me a lot about this "cure" she's discovered.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I would not believe it for one minute, this person, is not on target about much of anything.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I would like to refute something for the protection of beginning herbalists. The person defending Dr Irish stated that homopathy can't hurt anything.
This is absolutely not true. There are herbs that are gentle and safe, there others that when used wrong can kill. In some plants only a tiny portion can be used and the rest of the plant is deadly.
We have a plant that grows wild here. The tuberous root is natural soap, the juice of crushed leaves is bug repellent, the inside of the fruit heals bug and spider bites, the skin of the seeds will put you in a state of phsycosis that can last up to two weeks after getting a bit in your mouth. 

The best way to learn about these are to choose one plant at a time and learn everything there is to know about it before moving on to another plant.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

goat hiker, I'd be interested in what that plant is, I'm on the other side of the hill but maybe it grows here. I am working more towards herbal, I'm not saying there isn't a time where traditional medicine is in order. 
When my kids were young they had chronic ear infections and were thrown on amoxi. Until I moved and had to see another doctor and was surprised when he told me nope no antibiotic most ear infections are viral- he gave me an anagelesic (sp) ear drop- and sure enough that was it. I then worked as a dermatologist surgical ma. and the doc was a traditional doc and his wife an internist; but he would tell people if traditional medicine wasn't called for. People get use to get an RX and everything will be fine. Not always needed and the same holds true with animals. 
It is unfortunate more research isn't done for the goat industry for things like CAE/CL/John'es, it's a money thing and all we can do is try to prevent furthering the disease. 
I am more a show me how and why something does or does not work in order for me to understand and believe. 
I do agree that some herbs, as goathiker said, can be deadly used wrong- but so can traditional meds. I don't necessarily think it's just a placebo effect either (not saying some of it is). Natural /homeopathic can be a big topic, and while there are people who sell 'snake poison' as they call it, can jade people on their views.
Twenty years ago most insurance wouldn't cover chiropractic, partly because there were some that claimed to cure all. It's not until recently that WHO has realized it does have it's place.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'll Pm you since this plant has potential for abuse


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

That is a great idea..to pick one and learn all you can on it...think I will do just that


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

There is apparently some confusion here about homeopathy vs. herbal treatments. Herbal treatments are NOT homeopathy. Chemically true homeopathic treatments aren't harmful and you can't overdose on them because They Don't Contain Anything. The liquid treatments are so dilute that they are nothing but water. The pill forms are either pure lactose or pure sucrose. Herbal treatments often work and work well. I have cured my fairly bad gout arthritis with large doses of turmeric extract and Vitamin C. This isn't even remotely similar to Homeopathy. 
You will notice that people who claim cures from homeopathy are more often than not reporting about conditions that would eventually have a good outcome if NOTHING were done. Like a young, poorly socialized goat who eventually comes around and becomes friendly. I'd dare say we've all got at least one of those in our herds. It's sort of like banging sticks together to keep the bears away. No bears? It must be working. Bumps? Perhaps those bumps would have cleared up on their own by and by and there was no connection to the homeopathic "cure".
How can there be a "science" behind an 18th century doctor's cures? Homeopathy was invented before the average physician had even heard of bacteria, let alone viruses. They still bled people to get rid of the evil spirits when Homeopathy was invented. 
I still hold out some hope that there may be something to it, but the actual scientific evidence just isn't there. Add to that the fact that people like Dr. Irish have received their "degrees" from fraudulent, discredited and closed down "colleges" (it's on her about me page) and quackery just can't be discounted. 
I gave her the same shot as I give everyone who claims a treatment or cure. All I wanted was an explanation. Her defensiveness gives away her lack of understanding and her inability to explain or defend her methods. She is clearly accustomed to dealing with true believers. I go to church for belief, for sick goats I want science and proof beyond placebo.

And by the way, Ainsworth's doesn't sell her cure. They are not connected. Recall that I asked her what the difference was between her treatment and theirs. She sent me one more mail that I didn't post here. In it, while she didn't compare the two, she did specify that she and Ainsworth's are not connected in any way. They can in no way be considered an endorsement of Dr. Irish.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Much of the 18th century "cures" were because Laudium aka Cocaine made people feel better. 
We don't have anyone who is a homopathic here. We have a couple Chinese Herbalists. Don't really have any experience with Homopathy as a medicine type. There is still an inherent danger in using the power of belief to cure. If someone truely believed that their goat was cured of CAE they might be spreding the disease through poor hygiene and allowing kids to nurse. Maybe she's the one who left her milk bucket in the aisleway at a show for all the goats passing by to lick out. People who believe they've been cured could easily end up dying from other means by doings that are truely beyond them. 

People do need warned not to just go play with herbal cures though no matter what they want to call them.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here this helps, it's not intended to cure didease only minor issues.

quote from WebMD
*What is homeopathy used for?*

Historically, people have used homeopathy to maintain health and treat a wide range of long-term illnesses, such as allergies, atopic dermatitis, rheumatoid arthritis, and irritable bowel syndrome. They have also used it to treat minor injuries, such as cuts and scrapes and muscle strains or sprains. Homeopathic treatment is not considered appropriate for illnesses, such as cancer, heart disease, major infections, or emergencies.


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Hey All on "Dr." Alva's Yahoo Groups email list. Where is her PHD from along with the other alphabets following her name? Non accredited correspondece schools! One of the so called PHD's she claims to have is from a school (Clayton College of Natural Health) which was closed in July 2010.

I find it interesting that she frequents the chicken and goat forums with phishing type comments and she has personally emailed me (March 24, 2013 3:34:58 PM PDT) asking where to purchase Oberhasli dairy goats and that her "husband is going to build a chicken pen and a goat pen"(quoted below, bad spelling included). Why does she speak as if she HAS chickens and goats? She frequently claims to cure Marek's disease in the chicken forums.

"Wherer are you located?
My husband is going to build me a chicken pen and a goat pen.
I would love to get an Oberhausli to milk. (NOT right now!)
Dr Alva Irish
office 864-605-0474
Http://www.askahomeopath.net"

We have all read her recent "cure" for CAE and encouraged to post it on our websites. The homeopathic CAE nosode was NOT created by her. For those not familiar with homeopathy, there is and can be a nosode created for anything "like cures like" so there is even one for the bird flu etc. I'm quite familiar with homeopathic nosodes, sarcodes, xenobiotics (etc.) and their use but "Dr." Irish is a scam artist. Do a search on "All Experts" and check out some of her other unprofessional answers!!!

I looked into some of the recommended remedies by "Dr." Alva Irish.

She lists her initial treatment as follows:
Initial treatment would be to give ONE dose of Belladonna "F", followed by Aconitum Napelus "F", and if in the case of exposure to poisons, Nux vomica "F", or if the doe seems very weak, Carbo Vegatabilis "F". I also include Urtica Urens 200 C.

Anyone familiar with homeopathy can find the above remedies just about anywhere however, when she lists:
Cornebacterium, potentized, also in an "F" potency, and Bacillus of Burnet 200C

They are not on the website provided. So, I asked her if these were prescription items and she said, "They are from the Ainsworths website." NO - They are NOT!

So, I asked a second time, where is "Cornebacterium and Bacillus of Burnet" found - she responded:

"Google John Cain's Homeopathic Pharmacy Celletech.
There is a copy run by a hindu, don't go to that one.
When you get it Google them.
Listen, I love to help you, but I make my living answering questions.
I usually charge $15 for a question, but if you want to, you can send me anything you like paypal to [email protected].
I am so sorry, but I am out of groceries honey.
Love, Alva"

Guess what? John Cain's website doesn't list "Cornebacterium and Bacillus of Burnet" either! I'm not saying these 2 remedies don't exist in homeopathy, they DO. I just don't believe she is as educated in homeopathy as she claims to be.

I am a firm believer in the science of homeopathic medicine and find many using the term inappropriately but some people take advantage of others ignorance in it's use and this is definitely one of them who gives homeopathy a BAD name.

There IS a homeopathic nosode for Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis - CAE on the Ainsworth website so, if anyone would like to give it a try, go ahead. It would be interesting to hear the results.

To give "Dr." Alva some form of credit, she did email me later apologizing for asking for money.


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

by the way...the homeopathic remedies and nosode for CAE are also mentioned in George Macleod's (MRCVS, DVSM) book written back in 1991 - "Goats: Homeopathic Remedies." He states that it's likely to be of limited value but certain remedies may help. One person in another forum uses some of the remedies with her positive goats and claims it helps symptoms but they still test positive.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

still said:


> I love your response to her as well!! That was VERY well written. I am shocked at how people act that are supposed to be "professionals". :shocked:


Not just the fact they are "professionals".....just being a grown up for crying out loud!  Kids in kindergarten know how to communicate better than that!


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

NyGoatMom said:


> Not just the fact they are "professionals".....just being a grown up for crying out loud!  Kids in kindergarten know how to communicate better than that!


True!!! Lol!!!


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## NavaBoerFarm (Dec 15, 2012)

Great job on your emails Elchivito you sounded very professional. I'm sorry she didn't cooperate maybe you could have dug her deeper in the hole of her lie....


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## dezak91 (Feb 22, 2013)

This woman, Doctor, or whatever she is just sounds strange. Her replies and answers to questions leads me to believe that she is either very eccentric or goofy. I think it is best to stay clear until more studies are done that confirm her findings. JMO.


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

NavaBoerFarm said:


> Great job on your emails Elchivito you sounded very professional. I'm sorry she didn't cooperate maybe you could have dug her deeper in the hole of her lie....


I could have, and I thought about it for a bit, but you know what happens when you wrestle with pigs.....


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Excellent info.! Hopefully if someone falls for her hogwash miracle cure...they will search for more info., find this thread, and won't be scammed.


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

KW Farms said:


> Excellent info.! Hopefully if someone falls for her hogwash miracle cure...they will search for more info., find this thread, and won't be scammed.


My thoughts EXACTLY!!!


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## Rochelle Long (Dec 30, 2017)

Hello. I am constantly doing research on what others have found successful in treating goats naturally, as I have had great success myself in changing how I work with my small dairy herd. I have been studying holistic health for about 27 years, and have learned many things working with people all over the world. I began incorporating these natural practices over the past decade while working with my own small herd, and am seeing that the milk integrity has improved, resiliency in the herd, and the goats actually like and want the tinctures and medicinals that I am mixing from other herbalists or making myself. 

It greatly saddens me to see how misunderstood plant medicine is, as there is great and powerful benefit to adding tinctures and dried herbals to your herd's diet. Homeopathy is a powerhouse of healing, so don't think for one instant there is 'nothing' in it. You obviously have no idea how it made, and how vibrational healing works. Vibropathics and hertz frequency methods are extremely crucial to the health and well being of our organs. Our bodies are both magnetic and electric, so attuning our bodies to these frequencies make us better or make us sick. What you put in your body, and in your goat's bodies, and our food plants, as well, has everything to do with healing potential and vitality. 
Giving your goats, and yourself, regular supplements of probiotics, herbals and other plant medicine will help build the interior so that what comes from the exterior doesn't matter as much.

Another way to help you treat your goat is by learning signs of the stool will help you understand better what is happening to the goat, and yourself to see when to worm, when to treat certain conditions, and how to treat. Color often tells you a great deal. 

The power of herbs is often misunderstood, and many of us that teach this and help heal successfully are criticized, attacked and often do not get paid for our work. I have spent most of life studying disease, and have found that it all comes from pH. We heal or kill ourselves by what we consume. It is therefore, crucial, and a moral obligation, that we take time to understand what goats need to be healthy. The minerals from the type of hay, or lack of, adding supplementation to their diet, and giving them adequate and a variety of forage,as well as adequate space to move about, cleaning and trimming their hooves regularly with an essential oil blend, wiping the udders with essential oils and using separate rags per goat are all simple steps that make a huge difference. How clean is the water? What is the temperature of it? All of these things, and many more affect both you and your goat herd. 
CAE will always be present, as will other viral and microbials -both good and bad. The healthier the digestive tract, and stronger the immune system the less the threat from any condition.
I am new to this forum, but I hope to post more in the near future, and learn more while here. My learning has been mostly experiential, but it is also research based in the human arena. Goat research is limited to my own personal experience in the field, as well as using products by Fiasco Farms, which is an excellent resource. 
Please give herbalists and natural medicine a chance. It works, is very powerful, changes lives and often saves them. Blessings, Rochelle from NC!


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## Rochelle Long (Dec 30, 2017)

goathiker said:


> I would like to refute something for the protection of beginning herbalists. The person defending Dr Irish stated that homopathy can't hurt anything.
> This is absolutely not true. There are herbs that are gentle and safe, there others that when used wrong can kill. In some plants only a tiny portion can be used and the rest of the plant is deadly.
> We have a plant that grows wild here. The tuberous root is natural soap, the juice of crushed leaves is bug repellent, the inside of the fruit heals bug and spider bites, the skin of the seeds will put you in a state of phsycosis that can last up to two weeks after getting a bit in your mouth.
> 
> The best way to learn about these are to choose one plant at a time and learn everything there is to know about it before moving on to another plant.


I greatly agree with you. Plants are designed by a loving Creator to be useful in its entirety, either whole leaf, whole root, sometimes adding aerial parts, for different healing potential. When the plant is collected, how, and what time of year have a lot to do with the effectiveness or danger of the particular plant. Plant medicine is not a 'scam', it is a life long study and a great deal of hard work. The benefit is seeing the changes holistic medicine makes in people and animals, even in our plants as we add this medicine to the soil.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Hi Rochelle!! Welcome to TGS 

Any luck with finding a buck for Cherry?


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

@Rochelle Long have you heard of this place?
https://www.firmeadowllc.com/


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

Rochelle Long said:


> I greatly agree with you. Plants are designed by a loving Creator to be useful in its entirety, either whole leaf, whole root, sometimes adding aerial parts, for different healing potential. When the plant is collected, how, and what time of year have a lot to do with the effectiveness or danger of the particular plant. Plant medicine is not a 'scam', it is a life long study and a great deal of hard work. The benefit is seeing the changes holistic medicine makes in people and animals, even in our plants as we add this medicine to the soil.


Plant medicine is definitely not a scam. Homeopathy isn't herbal medicine, there are no plants or herbs in homeopathic preparations. I wish folks would stop conflating these two protocols. Homeopathy was conjured out of thin air over two centuries ago by a person who hadn't the barest modern knowledge of biological systems and the origin of disease. "Miasms"? Seriously? My own physician is a holistic, integrative medical practitioner. He is an MD with a specialization in internal medicine, a licensed naturopath and also a licensed homeopathic physician. Once, during a conversation we were having, I posited to him that homeopathy is 1)never prescribed for serious ailments and 2) appears to work as it is only prescribed for conditions that usually get better on their own, given time. He couldn't argue.


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## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

This is an old thread, and I found it looking for a source for CAE nosodes. I want to address a few points:

1) I would stay as far away from Alva Irish as I could get. As others have found, she is a scam artist, and doesn't know much about homeopathy, either.
2) Homeopathy is an energy medicine, but that doesn't mean it contains "NOTHING". What researchers have found (surprise, surprise) is that homeopathic remedies contain nanoparticles, and isn't it interesting that the latest science finds that minute, parts per billion, toxins can affect the body even more than grosser doses. So modern science is discovering now that Samuel Hahnemann discovered over 200 years ago.
3) CAE nosode is not a cure for CAE. It is a preventative--an immunization. In my experience, it will not cure a current case, but it will prevent CAE from appearing. I ran positive and negative goats together for years, used the CAE nosode for prevention, and never had another case.
4) All the naysayers for homeopathy are those who have never consulted with a professional homeopath, never spent a week watching and observing, never become educated. They toss it out because "it can't work". And why can't it work? Because we don't understand how? Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. I know several homeopaths, M.D.s and vets, who started out as skeptics and ended up impressed...and ended up studying homeopathy because they could help their patients more than with conventional band-aid medicine.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

elchivito said:


> Prolly one of those print your own diploma places.


Or maybe found them in a corn flakes package? 


elchivito said:


> ... However besides all that, until I see test results that say CAE + and then after treatment CAE -ve then I'm not going to believe it.


I guess the antibodies will stay the goat's life out. But if the sickness as such goes, that would be wonderful! Like the breaking medicines against AIDS!


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

rosawoodsii said:


> 2) Homeopathy is an energy medicine, but that doesn't mean it contains "NOTHING". What researchers have found (surprise, surprise) is that homeopathic remedies contain nanoparticles, and isn't it interesting that the latest science finds that minute, parts per billion, toxins can affect the body even more than grosser doses. So modern science is discovering now that Samuel Hahnemann discovered over 200 years ago.


Hi and welcome. Do you happen to have a link to research that finds nanoparticles in homeopathic preparations? I'd love to read it. I am coming up blank finding any directly published studies in that regard, but AM finding lots of anecdotal references to it. Thanks in advance!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

This is my contribution:

My friend, having both cows and goats, always did give all calfs and kids real milk, colostrum and all - but from the other species! Calves got fresh goat milk, and the kids thrived on cows milk. In a few generations all his goats were free from CAE.

In this way, he could still keep the good DNA of his flock. Many others recommend just killing all CAE-positive individuals, but this is not necessary. My friend's method is of course laborious, getting all the kids at birth, and feeding them all, but it has obviously been successful in at least one case.


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

Before starting this nursing switch, did your friend know for certain through testing that he had CAE in his herd?


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Very good advice, @elchivito ! For it is so much work with that "switch", that even I refrained from doing it, certain not to be able to bring it all the way.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

elchivito said:


> Before starting this nursing switch, did your friend know for certain through testing that he had CAE in his herd?


Oh, sorry, I misread this entry. Yes, my friend knew for sure his goats were CAE-positive, more than one had died from him in the typical symptoms. At that time, in the 1980-ies, nearly every single goat in Sweden was positive ...


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I have taken my herd from CAE+ to CAE- several times, each time I had to start up a new herd due to moving, divorce and such. Pull kids at birth, feed heat treated colostrum and then pasteurized milk. I refuse to cull my cae+ animals, I just manage them and only have them PTS if they are in pain.

Many years ago, my now ex and I had a commercial dairy farm. The calves got goat colostrum/milk and the kids got cows colostrum/milk. That was back in the 80's when CAE was just being discovered and was still a huge unknown.


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## TCOLVIN (Sep 22, 2014)

rosawoodsii said:


> This is an old thread, and I found it looking for a source for CAE nosodes. I want to address a few points:
> 
> 1) I would stay as far away from Alva Irish as I could get. As others have found, she is a scam artist, and doesn't know much about homeopathy, either.
> 2) Homeopathy is an energy medicine, but that doesn't mean it contains "NOTHING". What researchers have found (surprise, surprise) is that homeopathic remedies contain nanoparticles, and isn't it interesting that the latest science finds that minute, parts per billion, toxins can affect the body even more than grosser doses. So modern science is discovering now that Samuel Hahnemann discovered over 200 years ago.
> ...


What is a CAE nosode? Do I need it ? Will it keep CAE out of your main stock? Never heard of it. Curious though.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

TCOLVIN said:


> What is a CAE nosode? Do I need it ? Will it keep CAE out of your main stock? Never heard of it. Curious though.


I didn't get to read the article, however I do have experience with homeopathy.

A nosode is a homeopathic remedy intended to act like a vaccine would for an ailment, although it does not contain antibodies and the live virus like a vaccine would. However many give nosodes after vaccines are given to help the body adjust. For instance, after an animal receives a rabies vaccine, many follow up with a rabies nosode so that side effects are lessened or avoided.

I have no idea if a CAE nosode would work to treat CAE However if I had a goat with CAE, I wouldn't hesitate to try, I'm not stingy with homeopathy.

I have had many success cases with homeopathy, and I've also had it not help at all. However I am not scared about side effects or it killing my goats, so I would try it no matter what.

There is a homeopathic blend called Cell Salts, which has shown to help with many things including joint issues. I don't doubt you could use homeopathy to ease the symptoms, but have no idea if a nosode as a cure would work or not.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

The link didn't work for me.
Can you repost it?


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