# barber's pole worms vs. liver flukes



## sunshinegoat (Feb 7, 2012)

Hi all,
I have a question..
What are people's opinions on the scare of barber's pole worms. I see articles written all over the place and it all sounds so scary. Has anyone had to deal w/ this and for sure knew that is what they were dealing with? The eggs for these worms and liver flukes look so similar and I have heard that barber's pole worms are not affected by the same wormers that you can treat liver flukes with.
Has anyone here actually had their herd (or single goat) diagnosed w/ BPW and how did you treat?
Also what area of the country do you live in?
Any input would be great


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2012)

The threat of BPW is real and the only worm I will chemically treat for. I have and many people in my area have lost a lot of goats to BPW. We live in a semi humid/arid area of the Midwest where there is dew in the morning but no slugs or snails so no liver flukes. One of the larger producers lost 300 does out of 1000 to them in one month. I don't have to tell you what breed. They all as well as mine had red heads. It was not for lack of treating them, but rather that they were over treated with various wormers before we got them and would not respond to any type of wormer. One of mine was a past show goat if that tells you anything, a beautiful Boer that I took around and showed people when I got her, I was very proud of her and can still picture her in my mind as I write this and that was 5 years ago. All those goats came from the Texas area. 
It is was not uncommon for a person in this area to lose up to 30% of the herd to them, most producers do not run FB Boers for that very reason here where a kids is worth $100-$150 each regardless of breed. 
It is easy to tell when they have an affliction just by looking. The hair coat gets scraggly and thin they will quit eating and the other goats will challenge them and they fight gallantly to maintain the place in the herd. Eventually they go down and never get up again, it usually takes 3-6 weeks from symptoms to death. It is very sad. The treatment is sometimes fatal as well since Levamosol was the only thing that would even come close to killing a bad infestation. 
The only real way to control BPW is through culling and buying goats that have not been over wormed. If a goat needs wormed more than once or twice a year then it should be culled, in a productive commercial operation, and the cost involved with worming can cost thousands of dollars a year not to mention the time that it takes to run several hundred head through the chute to do it. It is more practical to cull the offenders that are contaminating the herd. I love the Boer breed and I am sure that there are Boers that have been treated like goats and not under wormed and wormed too often. Feeding worms Ivermectin several times a year or with a worming too close together will produce an unkillable strain of that worm sometimes referred to as a super worm. Even when I did chemically worm I never did so more than once every 6 weeks. Culling the ones that needed it sooner, and eventually culling everything that needed it at all.
Bottom line is if the goat has a low worm load leave it alone. All goats will carry a few worms and you will not kill every one of them, they will cycle out on there own, cull those that seem to always have a high count since they spread eggs to be picked up by the rest of the goats, feed up off the ground always. DE has been the best thing I have used to date as well as changing breeds and practices. A microscope will cost you less than a good goat and is worth the investment. My main herd is going on 1 year without being chemically wormed and my 15 month old yearlings have never been wormed in their life. I did fecals on 6 head just this past weekend, very few worm eggs mostly Strongyloids no BP. I will not worm as long as I have a score of 1-2. Condition is also a factor. Leaving kids on the dam longer than is necessary will pull your Doe down and make them more susceptible to worm infestations as well as grazing wet grass. IT also seems that the heat brings on that worm more than the rest. June-Aug will be the worst times for them and I will of course monitor the fecal samples but have no intentions of worming my herd as I have in the past. I think that if you get rid of those goats that are carrying the worm you can eventually rid it of your herd for good, I hope.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I would use Quest horse paste for the worms and Ivomec Plus for the flukes.


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## sunshinegoat (Feb 7, 2012)

Thanks for the replies.
I am asking because the liver fluke and the BP look soooo similar under the microscope that perhaps busy vets or their techs see the eggs and assume that it is BP since that seems to be the "scariest" thing out there.
I have just heard of some herds being misdiagnosed and trying to treat for BP (which was resistant to the wormer) and not treating for what was actually affecting the herd (liver flukes)
If it is BP how do you treat. I know Ivomec Plus does a broad spectrum plus flukes.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I thought, that liver fluke eggs are not usually seen in manure?


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## sunshinegoat (Feb 7, 2012)

Di said:


> I thought, that liver fluke eggs are not usually seen in manure?


 I'm not sure about that..they must show up sometimes but maybe not very often. I have seen slides w/ both types of parasites, though. They look very similar to one another.


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

In the past 5 years I have lost 2 goats to what vet said was without a doubt barberpole worm.1st one years ago confirmed thru fecal after seeing 3 vets. My boer doe that went down in dec vet said was same thing. He told me to worm with dectomex and watch eyelids. He said way more common in boers then any other breed.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Ivomec Plus takes care of both Liver Flukes and barberpole worms..."do not give to pregnant Does"...I give 1 cc per 33lbs...then again in10 days...
Check the gums first.. before giving.... if the goat is anemic you will have to inject it at first to kill the worms slowly to start....then follow up with giving by mouth a short time later to kill all...If the gums are really white or very light pink ...do not give by mouth...it kills the worms to quickly and the goat will bleed out when the worms let go.....

Here is what Ivomec plus takes care of... This wormer kills both....


> Ivomec PLUS
> 
> (ivermectin and clorsulon)
> Lungworm: (Dictyocaulus viviparus)
> ...





> In the past 5 years I have lost 2 goats to what vet said was without a doubt barberpole worm.1st one years ago confirmed thru fecal after seeing 3 vets. My boer doe that went down in dec vet said was same thing. He told me to worm with dectomex and watch eyelids. He said way more common in boers then any other breed.


 That is not true with one breed... being more prone to get them than others...my boers have never had them....it all depends on area ..weather conditions...and different situations..that goats are in...
Also...the situation of a new goat ...that has them ...that is introduced places risk to the herd..ect.....your vet is wrong...I am sorry.... But All goats ...are susceptible in getting them...


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Copper bolusing is said to take care of the BPW. In fact, if you can get the copper levels right without causing toxicity, the goats will not be troubled by any kind of worm.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2012)

All goats can get the BPW but not all can carry the load or are resistant, here is just one study there have been several........................

Parasite Resistance

Information taken from the study: "Selection for Resistance in Goats Using Artificial Nematode Challenge" by Dzakuma, J.M., E.A. Wilson, N.C. Beckford, B.M. Johnson, and L.C. Nuti, International Goat Research Center, Prairie View A&M University, Prairie View, Texas, U.S.A.; and T.M. Craig, Dept. of Veterinary Pathobiology, Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas, U.S.A.

This paper is available in full as a pdf download at www.spanishgoats.org/pdf/dzakuma1.pdf

249 goats born in 2004 from Tennessee Stiff-legged (Myotonic), Spanish, and Boer breeds were divided into four treatment groups:
Two groups were challenged orally, with one large dose of 5,000, L3 stage infective Haemonchus contortus larvae (barber pole worms) per animal to evaluate the impact of management treatments. The other two groups were not artificially challenged.
The groups were maintained on pasture and on concrete, with or without artificial challenge.

TEST BOER TENNESSEE STIFF-LEGGED
(Myotonic) SPANISH
Final Weight (kg) 27.3 ± 0.4 22.6 ± 0.4 25.3 ± 0.4
Fecal egg count (eggs/gram) 485.2 ± 61.6 301.9 ± 40.6 308.2 ± 53.8
PCV-packed cell volume (%)
This is a measure of anemia. The higher the PCV, the more resilient the goat. 25.6 ± 0.4 29.4 ± 0.3 30.5 ± 0.3
SPL-Serum protein level (gm/dl)
This is a measure of blood loss. The higher the serum protein level (SPL), the more the goat is able to tolerate the infective parasite load. 7.0 ± 0.04 8.0 ± 0.05 7.4 ± 0.05

The study shows that resistance to worms is affected by the breed of the goat. It seems that the Myotonics did just as well as the Spanish here.
Just a note of interest: if any kids couldn't handle the test, they were removed from the study and promptly dewormed.


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## sunshinegoat (Feb 7, 2012)

How do you ensure you are not over doing it w/ the copper bolus? If you get the copper levels right do you ever have to worm? I have used herbal wormers in the past as well as rotating chemical wormers. I am finding that seem to be in better condition w/ the herbal stuff...I know alot of people feel they don't work.
It is a pain having to do it every week but I like not having to worry about milk withdraw and what not.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

> How do you ensure you are not over doing it w/ the copper bolus?


I've not used the copper bolus (I use copper sulfate), so I don't know, sorry! I would say that if you wait after bolusing until the goat starts looking slightly deficient, that would ensure you weren't overdosing on copper. But then that might give worms a chance to get a foothold. :shrug:



> I am finding that seem to be in better condition w/ the herbal stuff...I know alot of people feel they don't work.


The healthiest two goats I own came from farms that used the herbal wormers. Coincidence? Hmmm...


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## sunshinegoat (Feb 7, 2012)

It's funny about the herbal stuff...I've worked for so many vets that are anti...could it be they want to sell more drugs??? Hmmm.. I have a hard time with the way some vets operate w/ goats (and other animals) sometimes..Not to say there aren't good goat vets out there...I worked w/ one of the best!!
I just have seen a lot of the behind the scenes stuff and they look up a lot of info on the computer then relay it to the client..that's why we treat stuff ourselves.
We have a great microscope and were both techs for years so I feel pretty good about being able to take care of our guys. Oh yeah, we have the internet and TGS 

I worked for one vet who would tell me to do something, then after I would ask her a contradictory question she would go back on what she said then agree w/ me...she's one that doesn't like herbal wormer.
I will use chemical if need be but I am going back to herbal for sure


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