# First time owner and clueless...



## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

So we got our goats suddenly...from a bad farmer who went to jail...and set everything up. As soon as we learned they were both does we were disappointed and wanted to set up a "date" for the older doe, Busty..Nigerian Dwarf mix? But we came across a Nigerian Dwarf Buck for a steal and bought him. They were tighter..a lot...in late September early Oct and never saw a heat..so waited...and she tested positive. I have no idea when she is due, because I didn't see when it happened because we were so new and didn't know to monitor things, etc. So, do I need to take her temperature or what to monitor her? Her appetite is up..but she's always been a great eater...my other one is eating more too but I don't know if it's just because Busty is or what? Bu sty's bag looks the same as when we got her...her belly is bigger...but since she came from a bad farmer, she was under fed...so, not really a good judgment. I'm figuring around Christmas or early January? I have the vet on speed dial. My hubby does not want to go to the vet before...strict rule on that one. So, that's why I am on here. Thanks! Oh, they have leads on their necks Because they are still pretty skittish and at times I need to use it to keep them out of duck feed, etc...


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

You need to be feeding a good diet right now esp since she is bred. Good hay is the best thing for them. A good mineral. Selenium/vit e gel monthly. There should be no keeping them out of the other animals food dishes... it NEEDS be separate completely! If you are thinking jan kids..... start adding a small amount of grain or alfalfa pellet or mixed to get them used to it. But do not overfeed cause fatty does can have problems kidding.

This month she needs a cdt shot so she can pass some immunities to the kids. It is a two shot deal.

Her udder not bag should start to make itself known soon. Just watch it grow is all you need do.

Take the buck away from the does now. Does will give phermones that mimic heat scents to a buck in their last bit of gestation.

Read read and read more on kidding and what you need to have handy for delivery. There is a search button and sticky topic in the different forums with great info. No need to poke and prod your does. Their bodies are amazing things and know what to do and when to do it most of the time. Read up on toxemia and preclampsia in goats and watch for them. Again fat does can have these problems.

And. If ever you get neglected animals again...... do not just automatically think... oh gee i want kids lets breed them. Get them in a good condition first before anything else. A neglected animal needs tons of care to just get them healthy not growing kids. And by breeding them so soon all you did was make those neglected bodies work more than overtime to compensate. Yes they may have been bred already but you purposefully put a buck in with them.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I have had goats for over 10 years and i am still clueless
welcome to TGS


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

for being rescues they look very good.
do a body condition test. with winter coats there hair can hide lots.
How to do a body condition test,
feel the ribs of the goat. feel ever goat you own.
if the ribs feel like skin on a skeleton that is a body condition 1 or way to skinny about to die.
If you can not feel any ribs that is a body condition 5 or way to fat.
you should strive for a 2.5 to a 3


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

fivemoremiles said:


> I have had goats for over 10 years and i am still clueless
> welcome to TGS


Thanks...lol


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

@mariarose


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> You need to be feeding a good diet right now esp since she is bred. Good hay is the best thing for them. A good mineral. Selenium/vit e gel monthly. There should be no keeping them out of the other animals food dishes... it NEEDS be separate completely! If you are thinking jan kids..... start adding a small amount of grain or alfalfa pellet or mixed to get them used to it. But do not overfeed cause fatty does can have problems kidding.
> 
> This month she needs a cdt shot so she can pass some immunities to the kids. It is a two shot deal.
> 
> ...


Yes, I realize now that we should have waited..but we were excited. So...now...we have to do the best we can. The buck has been gone for a month..I was afraid he would hurt them. They don't have access to the feed, they just get out of hand when I'm putting everyone away at night. I had a great routine putting the goats in a separate pen...then putting the ducks into the barn..then leading the goats in. The ducks are in the same barn...but totally different end..totally different sections, etc..there's a room and two walls between. But... I have to put the ducks away first. Didn't think of that when we built. The goats like to be in the barn, then I have to move them out so they don't try to eat duck food...anyways..that's where they've given me issues. But , I'm working on being smarter than my goats...lol. They just know, when I lure them to either fenced area with feed, they are missing out.

AnywYs..I can get the selenium/vit e right away..already got them on alfalfa pellets because I was worried about kidding. I will read like crazy! . Thanks!!


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

fivemoremiles said:


> for being rescues they look very good.
> do a body condition test. with winter coats there hair can hide lots.
> How to do a body condition test,
> feel the ribs of the goat. feel ever goat you own.
> ...


I did one before... I felt that they were a solid 3...now I would say Busty is a 4:5. But pregnant..and Stormy pretty close there too..I hand feed them..they are spoiled...and if one has a bit more..they head butt each other...usually Busty, because she's bigger..so Stormy, my little Pygmy mix, eats much less but is still round. I actually brush them on my goat stand..I'm trying to tame them and make them feel more loved...their coats are super thick..so hiding a lot


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Hey there..welcome to TGS! We all start confused..dazed...bewildered...hopeful..let down..cry..scream..kick a bucket out of frustration..then get on here.......
And all these angels cone to rescue! Years & years of actual work...expertise. 
Goats are amazing..and those emotions I described...dont change. Their is always something happening. Its ok. Thats what makes goats so easy to love. 
Ok..you got the buck end of Sept. Count 150 days from the end of the 1st week..that will give you an estimate of time. Ok? 
Feeding the doe is important. So please dont increase the grain . Just add more hay. Give them loose minerals..free choice..and lots of fresh water. Water is sooo important. Clean & fresh. 
One thing really neat about prego does..there udders really tell you alot. My does..their udders get huge. And shiny..on or about 2 days before kidds are born. 
Its ok to be new. ITS wonderful your excited..just be cautious..and ask lots of questions..k? Ill post a couple of udder pics..to show you the difference.








2 weeks before birth








birthing starts
The first pic..the udder is above the knees..firm 
Second...below the knees ...full & solid
l


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

Moers kiko boars said:


> Hey there..welcome to TGS! We all start confused..dazed...bewildered...hopeful..let down..cry..scream..kick a bucket out of frustration..then get on here.......
> And all these angels cone to rescue! Years & years of actual work...expertise.
> Goats are amazing..and those emotions I described...dont change. Their is always something happening. Its ok. Thats what makes goats so easy to love.
> Ok..you got the buck end of Sept. Count 150 days from the end of the 1st week..that will give you an estimate of time. Ok?
> ...


Oh geez...can a pregnancy test be wrong...like with dogs..a false pregnancy? I mean...Busty's udders look nothing different at all...I'll have to count days tomorrow, but...she'd be somewhere close to three weeks or so..she should be starting to show?


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

Denise Troy said:


> Oh geez...can a pregnancy test be wrong...like with dogs..a false pregnancy?


Oh, and yeah, I'm doing all the minerals, hay, water...cutting back on grain...makes me feel guilty...


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Ok..lets just guess. Late Sept..Sept 20 breed..due date Feb 17th. Probably udders would maybe be looking swollen a little. If she has never been bred before..maybe look a little puffy. She would still have @ 69 days..about 1/2 way. So not really showing that much yet. Mine start showing in the last 40 days.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

Moers kiko boars said:


> Ok..lets just guess. Late Sept..Sept 20 breed..due date Feb 17th. Probably udders would maybe be looking swollen a little. If she has never been bred before..maybe look a little puffy. She would still have @ 69 days..about 1/2 way. So not really showing that much yet. Mine start showing in the last 40 days.


Oh, ok, so I have a long ways to go..ok..excellent help!! Now I don't have to stress quite so bad much yet...lol.
Thanks!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

A gestation is around 5 months. They usually start growing that udder around 3.5 - 4 months in.
She needs quality loose minerals (what are you giving? If we know we can give more specific input) and quality hay. Pygmies and Pygmy crosses get fat easily, so very little grain. Something that focuses much more on oats than on corn. I'd avoid corn at all if you can. because it has very little nutrition, but a lot of fattening power.

When you are handling the goats, be sure to handle the udder and teat area. This desensitizes it to touch. I've seen that new moms can be so jumpy when the babies start feeling around with their mouths that they try to get away. If the area is already desensitized, that first latching on can be a lot smoother.

That trying to be smarter than your goats thing??? Good luck with that...

Goats like habit. So whatever you want them to do, be consistent with that day after day, and soon they'll WANT and DEMAND to do it that way and only that way.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

mariarose said:


> A gestation is around 5 months. They usually start growing that udder around 3.5 - 4 months in.
> She needs quality loose minerals (what are you giving? If we know we can give more specific input) and quality hay. Pygmies and Pygmy crosses get fat easily, so very little grain. Something that focuses much more on oats than on corn. I'd avoid corn at all if you can. because it has very little nutrition, but a lot of fattening power.
> 
> When you are handling the goats, be sure to handle the udder and teat area. This desensitizes it to touch. I've seen that new moms can be so jumpy when the babies start feeling around with their mouths that they try to get away. If the area is already desensitized, that first latching on can be a lot smoother.
> ...


Ok, the one that's pregnant is not the Pygmy mix..but the Pygmy mix is fat too..? They have the cattle trace minerals from TS... I was directed to it awhile back on here. They have alfalfa hay most of the time...but it is very hard to get around here, so, we switch in with a Timothy in a pinch. The grain has been cut back. No corn. I give them a blend of BOSS, oats, beet pulp, alfalfa pellets, soybeans pulp, and a tiny bit of sweet feed for good measure. 

My routine was down to a science with them until we had an ice storm and Stormy wouldn't go into the one pasture because the door was stuck. She went in last night just fine, so I'm hoping we are back on track and she will no longer give me a hard time when I am trying to duck herd...because that is when she nibbles at their feed...and inspires Busty..my pregnant doe, to come do the same. Typically the ducks and goats leave each other alone and ignore one another.

Yes, on the goat stand I try to play with udders, teats, hooves, eyes, everything I can think of to get them used to me giving meds or just manipulating them. It's going..so- so. They do great with me. But when my hubby comes to trim hooves it's another story. He's not hands on with the animals like I am. So they, especially Stormy, is scared. Hooves are not easy, I'm sure for anyone....but... I suppose practice makes...sort of perfect? I'll take pretty darn close? For the method and darn awesome for the results!

I think on a whole they are doing well...much much better than when they came to us. They do not have lice. Just Busty's thick winter coat, but I have the Cylence ready, and permethrin too.

They are a true joy and I learn from them everyday. They are sad that their brother and sister pot belly pigs don't live in the barn..but they go visit them a lot, because I let them go back and forth.

Every tip I can get is greatly appreciated!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Beet pulp is another good way to put weight on them. It's made from sugar beets, so very high in sugars and other basic carbs. Sweet Feeds are also high in sugar, but variable in other nutrients such as protein. Think about whether they need both the sugar sources together?

Mixing a legume hay (alfalfa and pea or peanut hays are legume hays) and a grass hay is the best option for almost everyone, in my opinion. So if you have the ability to mix your hays together in some way, that'd be great. If not, then switching back and forth isn't terrible, but offering them the same time is better.

Do you mean Purina Wind and Rain, Storm mineral mix for cattle? It is a red bag.

TSC carries a few different cattle minerals, and a couple of them are pretty bad, so I'm tracking down what exactly you mean.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Beet pulp is another good way to put weight on them. It's made from sugar beets, so very high in sugars and other basic carbs. Sweet Feeds are also high in sugar, but variable in other nutrients such as protein. Think about whether they need both the sugar sources together?
> 
> Mixing a legume hay (alfalfa and pea or peanut hays are legume hays) and a grass hay is the best option for almost everyone, in my opinion. So if you have the ability to mix your hays together in some way, that'd be great. If not, then switching back and forth isn't terrible, but offering them the same time is better.
> 
> ...


Question, the wind and rain and storm one in the red bag...I went and checked. I just didn't go to the barn before. Ok, I can take out the sweet feed for sure and cut way back on beet pulp. I was trying to give a good mixture from what I've read.

I have three feeders that we built. I typically put two alfalfa at all times and throw a Timothy in the last. They eat from all of them. I didn't even know about the other types of hey. I had a very hard time tracking down alfalfa, and we drive 38 miles one way to get it. I can ask that guy if he knows about the other types. The guy we get it from just sold us the last of his hay for a steal..but now we are going to have to go even further...people just don't have it here...and it's $9...is that what you all pay? We pay $3.50 for Timothy. We can grow that in the summer for them to munch on, but not bales.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

There are many different types of grass hays. I like orchardgrass. More important than the individual grass species, imo, is the stage at which it was cut and how well it was cured, and that is something that is going to come with experience. It needs to feel soft and leafy, and smell fresh and delicious, and never feel wet or hot to the touch.

But a couple of simple GENERAL guide lines are... a second cutting is better than a first cutting. And cutting just before or just as seeds form is better than after everything ripens (all the nutrition has left the stalk for the seeds). If the hay has been rained on while in the field, it has less nutrition in it than if it stayed dry while in the field. And finally, moldy hay can KILL.

When (if) you can't get good alfalfa hay, then alfalfa products from the store can help take up some of the slack. But they must have roughage somehow to keep that rumen going. A diet of all alfalfa pellets (instead of ANY hay) will cause rumen problems and even, in really bad situations, death. So always provide the best hay you can, whether it is a favoured species or not.

Your goats, pregnant or not, depend on good loose minerals, good hay or browse, good clean fresh water. That's the basis of all nutritional health. And then everything else is added or omitted, depending on those 3 things and what you are asking your goats to do for you.

I hope this helps.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

One last thing... If your girl is too fat toward the end of the pregnancy, it can lead to something called pregnancy toxemia, and one of the ways to prevent that, I've heard, is exercise, hay, and a protein tub. So don't let her lay around the barn doing nothing all day, and consider getting a protein tub. TSC has an All-Species one that comes in a very economical 125 lb size. The All-Species type is important, because it does not have urea in it. Goats are very efficient at processing urea, to the point they can actually poison themselves with it.

That's about all I can tell you about pregnancy toxemia, because I've never experienced it in my herd. But it hadn't been mentioned in this thread yet, so I thought I should.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

Ok


mariarose said:


> One last thing... If your girl is too fat toward the end of the pregnancy, it can lead to something called pregnancy toxemia, and one of the ways to prevent that, I've heard, is exercise, hay, and a protein tub. So don't let her lay around the barn doing nothing all day, and consider getting a protein tub. TSC has an All-Species one that comes in a very economical 125 lb size. The All-Species type is important, because it does not have urea in it. Goats are very efficient at processing urea, to the point they can actually poison themselves with it.
> 
> That's about all I can tell you about pregnancy toxemia, because I've never experienced it in my herd. But it hadn't been mentioned in this thread yet, so I thought I should.


Yes, this is very helpful. I did know about the second or third cutting of hay..and I always ask my neighbor that, or where we were getting the alfalfa hay.

So with the weight during being pregnant..do you still use the body fat scale? I imagine every doe is over 5 then. Can they get too fat purely from hay? I had been told on here numerous, numerous times in the beginning about the grains...because I was worried about feeding too much, that every goat is different. Well, now I see that these does like to eat quite a bit. So, I know they don't NEED that much, they just enjoy it. But, can you finally give me an idea on, maybe an amount that is good to give? A cup twice daily? A cup 1/2 twice? Etc? I think now I give between 3/4 cup twice..but then when getting then into the goat stand, etc...and I don't measure..so each day is different.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Denise Troy said:


> So with the weight during being pregnant..do you still use the body fat scale? I imagine every doe is over 5 then.


No, every doe should not be over 5. Pregnancy does not equal body fat


Denise Troy said:


> Can they get too fat purely from hay?


I suppose if it was a very rich alfalfa, and the goats got no exercise. But that's a bad thing to do for a lot of reasons. No exercise means the kids can't get into proper position for birth very well.


Denise Troy said:


> can you finally give me an idea on, maybe an amount that is good to give?


No, sorry, I can't. I hardly ever grained until they were on the milk stand. In that case my "grain" was a mixture of whole oats and alfalfa pellets, usually, and they ate for aproximately 5 minutes. In the winter I relied on minerals, salt licks, protein tubs and hay/browse. In the summer I relied on minerals, salt licks and browse. But someone here who keeps his/her goats in a different manner than I did should have a better answer for you.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Suzanne_Tyler @singinggoatgirl how much of what do you feed your pregnant dwarves daily?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

When I did NDs I was giving free choice alfalfa hay and maybe 1-2 cups feed each per day.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Hey there...glad you getting all this great info. ALL my larger goats ( boers, spanish,kiko x) get 1 cup of grain per goat 2x a day. My myotonics get 1/2 cup 2x per day. The rest is pasture, free access to minerals & hay.
Hope this helps.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Sfgwife said:


> Take the buck away from the does now. Does will give phermones that mimic heat scents to a buck in their last bit of gestation.


Yupp, and he might not understand that she needs peace when delivering. Cheer up, and read the good advice above!
:nod:


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> Yupp, and he might not understand that she needs peace when delivering. Cheer up, and read the good advice above!
> :nod:


The buck has been gone for a month... I needed him gone! From now on..just visiting bucks!


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

mariarose said:


> A gestation is around 5 months. They usually start growing that udder around 3.5 - 4 months in.
> She needs quality loose minerals (what are you giving? If we know we can give more specific input) and quality hay. Pygmies and Pygmy crosses get fat easily, so very little grain. Something that focuses much more on oats than on corn. I'd avoid corn at all if you can. because it has very little nutrition, but a lot of fattening power.
> 
> When you are handling the goats, be sure to handle the udder and teat area. This desensitizes it to touch. I've seen that new moms can be so jumpy when the babies start feeling around with their mouths that they try to get away. If the area is already desensitized, that first latching on can be a lot smoother.
> ...


So the selenium is here and CDT...any hints to administer?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

5 ml dose of the selenium gel orally now. The tube it comes in is also the applicator. You set the right dose amount directly on the plunger. I didn't give the CD&T shots until about 1 month before kidding. They are given subcutaneously, 3 weeks apart. I liked a size 18 gauge needle, but some people like them smaller, say 20 gauge. 3 ml syringes will do. I'd get the luerlock syringes. I don't like my needles slipping off. There are lots of videos on youtube to show you how to draw up medicine into a syringe, tap the air out, and give an injection.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

mariarose said:


> 5 ml dose of the selenium gel orally now. The tube it comes in is also the applicator. You set the right dose amount directly on the plunger. I didn't give the CD&T shots until about 1 month before kidding. They are given subcutaneously, 3 weeks apart. I liked a size 18 gauge needle, but some people like them smaller, say 20 gauge. 3 ml syringes will do. I'd get the luerlock syringes. I don't like my needles slipping off. There are lots of videos on youtube to show you how to draw up medicine into a syringe, tap the air out, and give an injection.


I've given lots of injections, unfortunately..just, where on Busty...should I give it to Stormy too?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I like over the ribs. And yes. It is an inoculation that most people give to everyone in their herd.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

Ok,


mariarose said:


> I like over the ribs. And yes. It is an inoculation that most people give to everyone in their herd.


 will do...going to TS today...is there anything else you can suggest that I pick up?


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Sorry! I haven't been on much! I only feed my does hay unless they are in milk. It really depends on the hay how much they will eat. They love alfalfa and don't need to eat as much of that as serecia which they don't have to eat as much of that as grass hay. 

While milking, they get as much whole oats and rolled barley as they can eat while I'm milking them, along with alfalfa pellets and soy meal for extra protein. I'm hoping I can try split peas on them this year. I only milk them once per day.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

singinggoatgirl said:


> Sorry! I haven't been on much! I only feed my does hay unless they are in milk. It really depends on the hay how much they will eat. They love alfalfa and don't need to eat as much of that as serecia which they don't have to eat as much of that as grass hay.
> 
> While milking, they get as much whole oats and rolled barley as they can eat while I'm milking them, along with alfalfa pellets and soy meal for extra protein. I'm hoping I can try split peas on them this year. I only milk them once per day.


Well, mine don't even like the alfalfa pellets...hmmmm. Weird goats? Lol


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

It's new, different, and therefore, morally suspect. Mix in a little sweet feed that they already know. That'll help.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

mariarose said:


> It's new, different, and therefore, morally suspect. Mix in a little sweet feed that they already know. That'll help.


What I did was take half of there regular feed and half alfalfa for now..and will decrease...since I had this issue last I switched to healthier feed...lol.. so, like you said it's just the change. But it makes me chuckle every time


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

singinggoatgirl said:


> Sorry! I haven't been on much! I only feed my does hay unless they are in milk. It really depends on the hay how much they will eat. They love alfalfa and don't need to eat as much of that as serecia which they don't have to eat as much of that as grass hay.
> 
> While milking, they get as much whole oats and rolled barley as they can eat while I'm milking them, along with alfalfa pellets and soy meal for extra protein. I'm hoping I can try split peas on them this year. I only milk them once per day.


So, once mine delivers..should I ask him to get in rolled oats? And then eventually split peas..if YOU have good luck first!!


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

singinggoatgirl said:


> Sorry! I haven't been on much! I only feed my does hay unless they are in milk. It really depends on the hay how much they will eat. They love alfalfa and don't need to eat as much of that as serecia which they don't have to eat as much of that as grass hay.
> 
> While milking, they get as much whole oats and rolled barley as they can eat while I'm milking them, along with alfalfa pellets and soy meal for extra protein. I'm hoping I can try split peas on them this year. I only milk them once per day.


Do I milk her right after she's done nursing or wait until she fills back up?


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Denise Troy said:


> So, once mine delivers..should I ask him to get in rolled oats? And then eventually split peas..if YOU have good luck first!!


Once your doe delivers, get whole oats. Oats are soft enough as a whole grain that they can eat it whole. If you want to add barley, get rolled. Barley is too hard on their teeth whole.

Don't wait for me to have good luck with split peas! Other people on thegoatspot have had great success using split peas as their protein source. I haven't had access to split peas so far, so I have used what is grown locally, which is soybean meal (what's left after pressing out the soybean oil). I want to use something else though - I don't like the smell of soybeans. I'm also curious about using livestock grade peanut butter, which is grown locally, but it might be way too fatty. I'm still researching it and trying to figure out the most nutritious and most economical way to do things for MY homestead.



Denise Troy said:


> Do I milk her right after she's done nursing or wait until she fills back up?


If you milk your doe right after you see the kid nursing, there will be no milk. You have to separate the kid(s) from the doe to get any milk, or the kid(s) will definitely keep her dry 24/7. They won't allow her to fill up. They're cute, greedy little monsters. I don't get milk until after the kids are 2 weeks old. Once they are 2 weeks old, I separate them from mom at night (put them in their own pen, or in a cozy and well padded XL dog kennel in the garage where there's no wind to chill them like I do) and milk mom very first thing in the morning. Then, I let the kids out after I've milked mom out completely, and they can milk her all day long. At first they are separated for about 8 hours, and the babies all holler and insist that I'm torturing them. All of my mature does have seemed relieved to have some quiet time while I "babysit" and don't mind at all unless I'm late milking them in the morning. I slowly increase the time the kids are separated to 12 hours, so I get half the milk.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Only whole oats, not rolled.
Once a day, starting the day after birth, I'd milk her out completely. 
That first day you'll get quite a bit, because it is a full bag. After that first day you won't get much until the kids are old enough to start separating at night.

You are doing it to train the goat that this is her new job now, and to keep the 2 halves producing equally.

That first day is colostrum, and most people don't drink that. But you can freeze some of it for a later emergency. After the first day or two it isn't colostrum any more (babies lose the ability to digest colostrum after 2 days) but an extremely rich newborn milk. Most people don't really like the taste of it, but there really isn't enough of it for you to drink anyway.

Here is a teat and udder development regimen that I recommend. It really does work.
http://glimmercroft.com/Udder.html

Here is a fantastic article on kid digestion that you'll learn a lot from. Very helpful.
https://www.thegoatspot.net/articles/digestive-development-in-kids.28/


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

Ok, I give regular oats now, so that can stay the same. Ok, if I read the first article right, it seems like the udder gets milked dry twice daily.. twice by me...through out the day by the kids? Plus, how do I keep the birthing fluid so I can rub it on my hands? How do I guarantee that I m there fit the kidding? I’ve read that her ligaments will stretch...but, she will get uncomfortable...typically at night? But still...that’s pretty iffy? 
How do I “bookmark” these articles for easy access..they are great...but I’m going to need to reread them many times!! Thank you sooo much for all of this help!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I didn't try to save the fluid. It got on me naturally as I was involved in the birth. After everything was done, I'd go in and wash, and that was that. You don't have to keep doing it.

As for saving the articles... my laptop computer runs Windows 7 and that has a bookmark feature. I don't know what your device has for a bookmarking capability.

There are many threads here titled "waiting" room, "waiting" thread, "Kidding" thread, that sort of thing. If you start reading through them, you'll see a lot of pictures as does get close, and learn a lot of the signs that a doe is getting ready. You have a few months, and would do well to start reading those threads, imo.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I didn't try to save the fluid. It got on me naturally as I was involved in the birth. After everything was done, I'd go in and wash, and that was that. You don't have to keep doing it.

As for saving the articles... my laptop computer runs Windows 7 and that has a bookmark feature. I don't know what your device has for a bookmarking capability.

There are many threads here titled "waiting" room, "waiting" thread, "Kidding" thread, that sort of thing. If you start reading through them, you'll see a lot of pictures as does get close, and learn a lot of the signs that a doe is getting ready. You have a few months, and would do well to start reading those threads, imo.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

You don't need to save birth fluid. Ew. Do your best to be there for the birth, naturally get goo all over your hands, let the doe lick it off of your hands if you want her to "adopt" you. Bathe when it's all over.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

It's been a loooong time since I read the udder article, but if I remember right, they pull the kids and bottle raise them so the dam's udder is only milked by humans. Then, it gets maximum stretching by filling up twice a day.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I didn't try to save the fluid. It got on me naturally as I was involved in the birth. After everything was done, I'd go in and wash, and that was that. You don't have to keep doing it.
> 
> As for saving the articles... my laptop computer runs Windows 7 and that has a bookmark feature. I don't know what your device has for a bookmarking capability.
> 
> There are many threads here titled "waiting" room, "waiting" thread, "Kidding" thread, that sort of thing. If you start reading through them, you'll see a lot of pictures as does get close, and learn a lot of the signs that a doe is getting ready. You have a few months, and would do well to start reading those threads, imo.


I have two iPads, they save foe so long...I guess I can just write it down! . Yes, I'm reading the articles now, driving my hubby nuts...the only animals on the farm that are easy are the pot bellies! Lol


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

singinggoatgirl said:


> It's been a loooong time since I read the udder article, but if I remember right, they pull the kids and bottle raise them so the dam's udder is only milked by humans. Then, it gets maximum stretching by filling up twice a day.


Why don't you want the kids to nurse...oh, to be able to milk her more efficiently? I don't think I want to really DO anything with the milk at this point...but I don't know..I don't know how hard it is, how long it takes..how hard it is to sell, make products, etc..plus..the extra care with the kids..... I didn't realize that if you turn her into a milk goat, she no longer nurses?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Denise Troy said:


> How do I guarantee that I m there fit the kidding? I've read that her ligaments will stretch...but, she will get uncomfortable...typically at night? But still...that's pretty iffy? !


For my first birth, I saw a pink slime coming from her vulva, and from all my reading I knew She would give birth in the next 12 hours. I was probably just as nervous as you are, and I stayed with her, until she gave birth, which was at 4:30 am.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

It’s all about what YOU want to do. 

I have goats with itty bitty teats, and have carpel tunnel syndrome, so I want to do everything in my power to healthily stretch that udder and those teats as big as possible so it’s easier on my hands in the long run. That method of udder training appeals to me in some ways. 

However, my goats are just pets. I don’t have a dairy business, so I’m not counting every drop of milk as more potential money in my pocket. Efficiency in milking is great, but it’s also my time to myself, so I don’t mind if it runs a little longer. I have a busy life as a mom of young children, so I really don’t want to take the time to bottle feed baby goats. I also don’t like bottle kids much because they don’t learn manners from their dam, so I have to teach them everything and they tend to annoy me. I have 3 dwarf goats and they give us exactly as much milk as my family can drink and cook with occasionally IF I milk them only once per day. I don’t need more milk. SO, I separate the kids only once a day for 8-12 hours overnight (increasing time with age). Other people have completely different goals and mindsets and milk twice a day and raise bottle kids, or don’t milk their does at all.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Other thoughts: If you don’t want to drink the milk, use it to make macaroni and cheese, make it into cheese for yourself, make it into soap, sell it (which might require a dairy license to be legal), or otherwise use the milk, then don’t milk your goats.

There are times even meat breed brood does need to be milked for health’s sake. It’s good to know how! If you have a milk breed you might HAVE to milk at first to keep her comfortable because she will make WAY too much milk. Not milking an engorged doe can cause excruciating pain. If she’s a super milky doe, milk her until you slowly teach her body that no one wants her milk. You can do that only after her kids are weaned, I think, or the little monsters will be counter productive by keeping her udder empty, which tells the udder that there is a huge demand and it must make more milk!


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Oh, turning them into a milk doe does not mean they won’t nurse if they bonded to their kid! My does are milk does, but I’m the second rate child. They preferentially nurse their biological kids and grudgingly stand for me to milk them in the morning because I give them grain on the milk stand, and after filling up all night it feels good to them to have their udder emptied.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I had dam raised kids and milked once per day. After a few weeks you separate the kids at night, in the morning you let the kids drink some and then milk out the rest. Then the kids have her for the rest of the day. That's what the article says to do.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

singinggoatgirl said:


> Oh, turning them into a milk doe does not mean they won't nurse if they bonded to their kid! My does are milk does, but I'm the second rate child. They preferentially nurse their biological kids and grudgingly stand for me to milk them in the morning because I give them grain on the milk stand, and after filling up all night it feels good to them to have their udder emptied.


So, I had had both does on my stand today...Busty, the pregnant one does great. I even worked the teats pretttty good to see if any fluid came out like I read in a previous thread. Nothing. But, she wiggles at first, then is fine. I'm guessing this is not her first rodeo.
But, Stormy..well, she's always been a handful, so why any different on a milk stand? Lol. Anyways..she tries to buck forward..then she settles...then, while I was gently working on her teats..she sat down. I got her back up with some soft talk.. but, what do you do is you're milking? Does she spill the milk, and..ugh goes the morning? . Perhaps by the time she's ready for that point she'll have settled. Oh, btw...because she is gaining, and, I wasn't convinced she wasn't pregnant before... I ordered new kits today. Peace of mind I guess? She was exposed to my buck, and she is definitely bigger than before. The previous test said no, but I think it was too early.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

First don’t try to get milk out until the babies are on the ground. You CAN fondle the udder gently to teach them that it’s just part of life to be touched everywhere. They might be sore down there as their udders prep for lactation, so you can just get them used to being touched on the milkstand everywhere that isn’t their udder, if you want. 

I’ve had a lot of first timers. Sitting is one of their favorite tactics! Kicking your hand off is another. 

You have to train her to hold still. It usually won’t just happen when you leave them to their own devices. The key is for them never to win. It’s the same as training for hoof trimming. If you have your hand on them, don’t turn loose no matter what they try. You can take away their grain if they aren’t holding still for you. Praise immediately and offer treats or affection when they behave properly. If they win, they try even harder next time, because they think it will work and get you off of them.

For me, a soft voice never worked while they were fighting me. Mine seemed to take that as a sign of weakness, or just made them angry. They didn’t want me to comfort them because they were already mad at me for touching their udders and ruining their routine. This was true even with the fearful, half wild beast of a doe I had. Yelling doesn’t work either, it just gets them riled up. Using a firm voice, like giving irrefutable orders to a squadron of soldiers did work some. “You just hold still now, soldier. This is how life works now. No kicking.” is the kind of language I used. It helped me be in the right frame of mind.

Other tricks: put a bucket under her belly so she can’t sit or lay down. Put a sling under her belly and tie it up so she can’t sit or lay down. You can use hobbles to keep her from kicking you, if necessary, to avoid hand injuries.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm personally not a fan of handling udders on any non-lactating goat, even to get them used to it before kidding. I've found that most absolutely despise being touched there when not in milk and it's really not worth fighting about it. Nearly all my goats, no matter how skittish they were about their udders before kidding, suddenly become very tame about it as soon as the kids hit the ground. Since acceptance seems to be automatic for most goats after kidding, I don't see the point in handling that area at all before then, particularly if the goat really hates it. It may just make her fearful of getting on the stanchion. 

The other reason I don't handle udders before freshening is that I don't want to accidentally induce early lactation. I've only had one doe with a tendency not to come into milk until 3-5 days after delivering, and with her I handled the udder ahead of time to help stimulate milk production, but this isn't necessary for most goats. If the goat turns out not to be pregnant you really don't want to stimulate the teats since it may encourage a precocious udder.

Best of luck to you!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

singinggoatgirl said:


> Using a firm voice, like giving irrefutable orders to a squadron of soldiers did work some. "You just hold still now, soldier. This is how life works now. No kicking." is the kind of language I used. It helped me be in the right frame of mind.


I liked that about talking to them like they were soldiers! It made me laugh!
My one and (so far) only milking doe gave me the royal run around, and I tried stern voice, reprimanding, soft voice, singing mantras, making it like a spa in the milk room, none of it changed anything. Except: just not stopping, no matter how much she stomped. 
And the most important change was, that I didn't care anymore if she stomped or not, I just kept going.
Now I seem to have a better knack at holding the cup so she won't contaminate it, if she decides to stomp.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Damfino said:


> The other reason I don't handle udders before freshening is that I don't want to accidentally induce early lactation. I've only had one doe with a tendency not to come into milk until 3-5 days after delivering, and with her I handled the udder ahead of time to help stimulate milk production, but this isn't necessary for most goats. If the goat turns out not to be pregnant you really don't want to stimulate the teats since it may encourage a precocious udder.


What is a precocious udder? I'm still relatively new to goats and I don't think I've heard that term before.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Only whole oats, not rolled.


Hi Mariarose. I have been feeding my goats steamed rolled oats because I had them for my chickens, but I just saw your comment about whole oats, and now I'm wondering if I should switch. Are whole oats better for goats than rolled oats for some reason?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Oats should always be whole. They really do need that seed coat and the natural oil that is inside the seed.
A precocious udder is when a goat develops an udder and starts making milk when she hasn't been bred yet. It's pretty rare, but happens often enough there's a name for it. Mostly in lines of high milk producers.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

mariarose said:


> One last thing... If your girl is too fat toward the end of the pregnancy, it can lead to something called pregnancy toxemia, and one of the ways to prevent that, I've heard, is exercise, hay, and a protein tub. So don't let her lay around the barn doing nothing all day, and consider getting a protein tub. TSC has an All-Species one that comes in a very economical 125 lb size. The All-Species type is important, because it does not have urea in it. Goats are very efficient at processing urea, to the point they can actually poison themselves with it.
> 
> That's about all I can tell you about pregnancy toxemia, because I've never experienced it in my herd. But it hadn't been mentioned in this thread yet, so I thought I should.


I have never heard of a protein tub. What is that? Also, I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between ketosis and pregnancy toxemia. I read on the FiasCo Farm website that it's the same thing, except ketosis occurs during lactation and toxemia occurs during pregnancy. But I have a Mini Nubian doe that had... well, one of those, I guess, during her first pregnancy with me, and a vet told me it was ketosis. The vet also told me her body condition was good, so... is my vet maybe not very knowledgeable about goats, or are there other causes for this condition? This goat has now been through another pregnancy with me and had the same condition a couple of times (I saved myself several trips to the vet during that pregnancy by dosing her with molasses or honey when she started showing symptoms).

A couple of weeks ago she showed the same symptoms (pretty sure she isn't pregnant this year as we sold our only buck) but I caught it quicker and "fixed" her by giving her lots of her favorite foods - that seemed to get her digestive system running again.

I don't know what's up with this goat. Her body condition still seems good to me. None of the other goats are doing this, and their diets are almost the same (plenty of nice green grass hay and some alfalfa) except the milkers get an additional pelleted lactating goat feed and a little grain.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Oats should always be whole. They really do need that seed coat and the natural oil that is inside the seed.
> A precocious udder is when a goat develops an udder and starts making milk when she hasn't been bred yet. It's pretty rare, but happens often enough there's a name for it. Mostly in lines of high milk producers.


Good to know! I will get some whole oats tomorrow.

Is it a bad thing if a goat produces milk before being bred? I didn't know that was possible but I would have guessed that would be a good thing - at least for someone just wanting milk. Does it cause problems?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Well, you are wandering into my ignorance here. One of the last 4 goats I sold was developing a precocious udder, I'd never had one before, and I don't know how she is now. Most people, I think, try to dry them up.

I'm also guilty of ignorance when it comes to the ketosis/toxemia connection. I never dealt with either of them, and all my best advice always seemed to come from my own problems and what I had to do about it. But I would certainly believe there is more than a single thing contributing to the problem.

Here is an all species protein tub, from TSC. They are no longer blue, but black in color
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dumor-general-purpose-protein-tub-125-lb?cm_vc=-10005
Here's another. Same stuff, larger volume
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dumor-16-protein-tub-200-lb?cm_vc=-10005
When choosing one, you always want to make certain there is no urea in the ingredients.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Feira426 said:


> Is it a bad thing if a goat produces milk before being bred? I didn't know that was possible but I would have guessed that would be a good thing - at least for someone just wanting milk. Does it cause problems?


The "milk" that comes from a precocious udder is not usually proper milk. It's usually a watery, salty secretion that isn't fit to drink. The udder is trying to produce something when the body and its hormones are not at the proper stage to make actual milk. The two goats I had with precocious udders both had only one side get bigger, and both of those precocious halves developed mastitis when the goats eventually freshened for real. It's not a desirable condition.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Damfino said:


> The "milk" that comes from a precocious udder is not usually proper milk. It's usually a watery, salty secretion that isn't fit to drink. The udder is trying to produce something when the body and its hormones are not at the proper stage to make actual milk. The two goats I had with precocious udders both had only one side get bigger, and both of those precocious halves developed mastitis when the goats eventually freshened for real. It's not a desirable condition.


Very good to know!!


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

singinggoatgirl said:


> First don't try to get milk out until the babies are on the ground. You CAN fondle the udder gently to teach them that it's just part of life to be touched everywhere. They might be sore down there as their udders prep for lactation, so you can just get them used to being touched on the milkstand everywhere that isn't their udder, if you want.
> 
> I've had a lot of first timers. Sitting is one of their favorite tactics! Kicking your hand off is another.
> 
> ...


Ok, as I was doing this again today, I was thinking..a bucket would be a good Christmas present for me..the hubby still hasn't gotten me anything. Any clues where to buy anything used..or is that an item that must be new. What is a hobble? I am stern when she tries to get into the grain room..she tries daily...she's a stinker...and she's turns and runs. It's funny. Until it's annoying. :lol: ok, I won't do anything but fondle. Ohm I tried the baby bump test twice..well a bunch...where you pull up....I only felt like a water balloon. No baby hard type head or knee or anything..it just bounced back down. Am I doing it totally wrong?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The baby bump test has been known to cause miscarriage, pinched cords, etc.It's really not meant to be used as a diagnostic tool. It's for when you don't know if they are done or not during labor when muscle structure is soft from hormones.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:up:


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

mariarose said:


> I had dam raised kids and milked once per day. After a few weeks you separate the kids at night, in the morning you let the kids drink some and then milk out the rest. Then the kids have her for the rest of the day. That's what the article says to do.


This is the traditional way here.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Damfino said:


> I'm personally not a fan of handling udders on any non-lactating goat, even to get them used to it before kidding.


This is the first time my experience differs from yours! I used to stroke them all over from the very beginning. And all the kids went up on the milk stand with their mothers, tasted the treats, and were used to the place long before giving birth.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

goathiker said:


> The baby bump test has been known to cause miscarriage, pinched cords, etc.It's really not meant to be used as a diagnostic tool. It's for when you don't know if they are done or not during labor when muscle structure is soft from hormones.


Bump? A soft lifting will tell if there are kids in there or not, or? To bump hard in the stomach of a labouring goat sounds like torture to me, I do hope I have misunderstood!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Damfino said:


> The "milk" that comes from a precocious udder is not usually proper milk. It's usually a watery, salty secretion that isn't fit to drink. The udder is trying to produce something when the body and its hormones are not at the proper stage to make actual milk. The two goats I had with precocious udders both had only one side get bigger, and both of those precocious halves developed mastitis when the goats eventually freshened for real. It's not a desirable condition.


It sounds to me as if the mastitis was there first. My own "virgin milkers" did produce real milk, even if it was thin, like at the end of an ordinary lactation.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

goathiker said:


> The baby bump test has been known to cause miscarriage, pinched cords, etc.It's really not meant to be used as a diagnostic tool. It's for when you don't know if they are done or not during labor when muscle structure is soft from hormones.


Oh geez...ok.. I will stop trying!


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

I have major questions about the copper and all minerals other things I need to get them on right now ! We did the selenium, DCT, they have trace minerals..free choice...also, the girls seem to be...settling on the backs...like all there weight is dropping on Stormy and she has like little indentations on the tops of both sides of her back...I had cut back on her grain...they have tons of hay...I’ll go out and get pictures...it may be just the way goats carry.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The "waiting" threads often have pictures of the does as the pregnancies advance. You might find them helpful, some more than others, of course.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Try watching these... it might help if nothing else you'll be entertained lol


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I wouldn't worry about hobbles at this point - and frankly don't like them for a doe that tends to stress. When she comes in milk after kidding, just get her used to being milked and keep going - most settle in. As for a bucket - any stainless steel item will do - you can find them for a reasonable price on Jeffers and other places - with only 2, no need to get fancy. Do not milk them at all until kidding - when they deliver, just make sure the plug is not in place and that kids can nurse if you don't pull your kids.


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## Denise Troy (Aug 31, 2019)

Another question...sometimes when I have Busty on the milk stand..for hoove trimming and such..I can really hear her tummy making hurling noises...is it just the rumen making normal noises? Is it because she’s in the stand? I’m worried I’m putting undue pressure somewhere and giving her indigestion.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

A healthy rumen is a noisy rumen - no worries.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Loud rumen noises are good, sometimes you can hear them, other times you cannot.


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