# Mini-alpine - blue eyes?



## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

So, at fair last year my daughter used a borrowed alpine for showmanship (because her ND is spoiled to the point that she won't walk on a lead without treats or expects to be carried). Rhi really loved working with the alpine but thought she was 'too big'. So after fair we did some research on other breeds and decided that a mini-alpine would be perfect for Rhi to work with. 

We were all set to buy a little doeling, but when we went to get her discovered that she hadn't been disbudded and her horns were already over 2 inches long. Made an arrangement with the breeder to get a doeling from her fall kidding -- but she wound up with only bucklings (Rhi wants to milk at some point). 

We have a tentative arrangement with the breeder to purchase a spring doeling from her - assuming she has something Rhi likes. 

BUT, a friend just sent me an ad for a 'registerable' chamoisee mini-alpine yearling that is bred (for January babies - ouch) to a registered ND buck. They are going up to that farm sometime in the next couple weeks to look at their nubians. Needless to say, I'm tempted. (the breeder I was working with locally is 4th generation mini-alpines and really nice, but not registered) 

Hesitations -- (1) the doe is blue-eyed and so is the buck she is bred to. Can mini-alpines have blue eyes? NDs can, but alpines can't and I can't find anything in the mini-alpine standard online one way or the other! (2) The doe is $130 without papers and $175 with the papers to register her and her kids. That's a pretty steep price-difference for the same animal. Is that typical for goats? And is the price worth it (for a 4-H animal that we would likely sell the kids just to other 4H'ers)?


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## MOgoatlady (Oct 23, 2012)

I don't know about the breed standards, but you may talk to the owner about 4-H pricing, some will do that. and IMO when you buy a pregnant doe you are actually paying less for her, because when she kids you can divide the price between her and her kids. I would say register, more return for your investment later down the line. Whichever you choose good luck to you and your daughter!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Mini Apines are (I believe) not recognized as their own breed. If both parents are registered and full-bred, they can be registered as experimental. As such, they can still participate in Linear appraisals and shows, they just don't have a solid breed standard. I would assume the blue eyes are perfectly fine -- same goes, I think, with mini Nubians and mini Lamanchas.

The price difference is very common. I sell registered Nigerian Dwarf doelings for $300. Unregistered or as pets, I will sell the same goat for $200. This is because when a goat is registered, my herd name is permanantly attached to her (or him). 

YES that is a good price, if the doeling's mom has a good udder, and if the doeling has a good build. The starting price for full-blood doelings is usually around $300 -- for experimentals (like the Mini Alpines) is is usually a bit lower. If she is quality, you're getting a good deal. A lot of time, love, and money go into each goat -- not only that goat in particular, but in buying good registered stock to improve your herd. That's why registered goats can be pricy.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

well said woodhaven


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If the mini Alpine is registerable, it would be registerable through one of the mini clubs. ADGA and AGS refuse to recognize any full size breed bred to a Nigerian. Will not even consider them experimental. Find out which registry they can be registered with.

Since Nigerians are involved with the mini breeds, blue eyes are fine.

That is a cheap price whether you decide to register or not.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Registration can make all the difference with price. I bought my buck unregistered for $350 but the reg bucks from that farm sell for $750-$1200 easy. Moose is the same quality, only his kids can't be reg. which I'm fine with.


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

Thanks -- I got most of my original information on the breed from MDGA -- http://miniaturedairygoats.com/about_mdga.htm -- which does have a registry for mini-alpines.

Emailed them with the 'blue-eyes' question and got a response back that that is fine. (really fast for an organization email!)

Definitely want to take daughter and have a look at this doe. Not sure when -- the weekend was already overly booked (possibly delivering a guinea pig to new owner and need to clean house before parents come in town for the holiday AND finish winterizing barns/shelters)!

Paying substantially extra for papers on the same animal irritates me -- but lesson learned the hard way from rabbits (which at least have an open registry so you can rebuild a pedigree in 3 generations -- which is just 2 years for bunnies!) is that they are worth having when the time comes to sell babies.

Hadn't bought either registered or bred goats before (just unregistered kids at $75-100) so wasn't sure on the price. Your advice makes me feel better on this. Now just have to talk hubby into that pricetag!


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

$45 difference is a very low amount to ask. I'd be overjoyed if I could find a quality doe at $175 a head.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Same. We're looking for a quality buck to buy right now, and you pay big time for quality. But it's worth it! You want to improve the breed, your herd, and sell quality to people who will take good care of them.


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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

MDGA and TMGR regisiter mini dairy goats. Mini dairy goats are offspring of a standard breed goat and an ND. Example: The offspring of a Nubian doe and ND buck would be considered Mini Nubian. That is why ADGA does not register the offspring of a standard breed and ND. Yes, they can have blue eyes. Either color of eyes is accepted since some NDs carry the blue eye gene. Links to check out: http://miniaturedairygoats.com/ http://www.tmgronline.org/
These are the organizations that register mini dairy goats.


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

With significant regret and after discussion with husband, have decided against. Partly the 'bred for January babies' (already looking at winter babies from our nigerian that was accidentally bred by the 'wether') and mostly because we lost another animal (our youngest alpaca this time) last night. No warning, no symptoms, perfectly normal in the morning and dead when we headed out for night chores. Cannot bring in any more animals until we get this (whatever it is) figured out and under control.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm so sorry about your alpaca ... :hug:


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

Another question on minialpine color standards...

What color would you call an animal that looks like the reverse of a chamoisee? i.e., black with tan markings (lower legs, facial stripes). Looks to me a lot like Sundgau, but the markings are not pure white (very obvious as it is also broken, with a lot of white in the hindquarters). 

We went to look at a pair of doelings (won't be ready to leave mom for 8 weeks - but she was only going to dehorn them if we definitely wanted one). Rhi liked this one better (the other is broken two-tone chamoisee). -- seller agreed to dehorn both based on our paying the deposit for one, so not urgent to decide. But if this one isn't a showable color, I need to start 'steering' Rhi's decision.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It is a Broken Black Swiss. The coloring is just fine for showing.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

neubunny said:


> Thanks -- I got most of my original information on the breed from MDGA -- http://miniaturedairygoats.com/about_mdga.htm -- which does have a registry for mini-alpines.
> 
> Emailed them with the 'blue-eyes' question and got a response back that that is fine. (really fast for an organization email!)
> 
> ...


I really see no reason for irritation. Papered goats are absolutely worth more than un-papered ones to whomever owns them, whether you or the breeder. It makes perfect sense to thusly charge more for papers. People who want to show or to breed for babies that will bring higher dollar tend to want the registered animals. However, its nice when breeders offer un-papered goats for a lower cost for those out there who only want a family milker and thusly the extra cost isn't worth it to them. The price difference between papers and no-papers, in this instance, is VERY low IMO. Either price is excellent as long as the animals in question are quality.


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

Re 'extra cost for papers' -- I guess I can see it if you think of it as offering a discount to someone who is starting, just 4H, just homestead, etc and doesn't need the papers. Sort of a way of encouraging them to buy better quality and improve the breed. Again, coming from a rabbit background - which is an open registry (any rabbit with a 3 generation pedigree - which can be produced in 18 months of breeding starting from unpedigreed - that meets the breed standard at the time of registration can be registered for $3). I do understand that makes it very different from goats, where the registry is closed. 

On the latest color - Thank you. On my inquiry (Rhi would be the first in the county to show a mini alpine at the 4H fair) we were told that even though minis aren't ADGA registerable breeds, so long as we provided a copy of the MDGA standard to be judged against, we were fine. Just don't want to start with a doe that doesn't conform to the standard -- that would set a bad precedent.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

neubunny said:


> Re 'extra cost for papers' -- I guess I can see it if you think of it as offering a discount to someone who is starting, just 4H, just homestead, etc and doesn't need the papers. Sort of a way of encouraging them to buy better quality and improve the breed. Again, coming from a rabbit background - which is an open registry (any rabbit with a 3 generation pedigree - which can be produced in 18 months of breeding starting from unpedigreed - that meets the breed standard at the time of registration can be registered for $3). I do understand that makes it very different from goats, where the registry is closed.
> 
> On the latest color - Thank you. On my inquiry (Rhi would be the first in the county to show a mini alpine at the 4H fair) we were told that even though minis aren't ADGA registerable breeds, so long as we provided a copy of the MDGA standard to be judged against, we were fine. Just don't want to start with a doe that doesn't conform to the standard -- that would set a bad precedent.


Thats fascinating, about the rabbits. I imagine it has to do with their very quick reproduction rates, etc. Almost the entirety of the rest of the pedigreed animal world is the same as the goats. Many registries do not have open books at all and only allow certain crossbreeding....and with the goats, it can take generation upon generation upon generation to get a fullblooded animal on paper. I do horses too, and have since I was a kid. Most of those registries are closed to any grade animals but allow some registered out-crosses. You can, for example, use a registered Thoroughbred and breed it to a registered Quarter Horse and still have a papered Quarter Horse although it will have "appendix" papers. It can get really complex, but if all things are equal, one perfect horse with papers will hold more value than the same perfect horse without any. The same just goes for most papered animals. I want to get into rabbits down the road though, so thats a really nice piece of information to know.

Also, your new kiddo has a gorgeous color. I've always loved those particular markings/color combo.  :thumbup:


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

sigh -- another in our string of 'bad luck' -- now spilling onto another farm. The baby above was limping and holding one back leg straight when we visited. Mary said it was just birth trauma and seemed to be getting better. But I guess it got worse again a few days later. Vet treated a knee infection and splinted the leg -- a few days later mom rejected the kid. Mary bottle fed it for a few days, but it didn't make it.

Rhi is disappointed, but at least hadn't gotten too attached on just one visit. So we will be getting the second doeling...broken two-tone chamoisee. She has the full black stripe down her back and black legs as well as bits of black on her face. Front half is cream/carmel (looks more mottled in the picture than it is), back half the darker brown.  Near complete white belt (just the black spine stripe cuts through it).


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## woffinden (Jun 11, 2012)

*Pay the extra*

My kids have been showing goats in 4-H for years, and they definitely should be registered (the goats). The reason for this, is that they then have a tattoo with registration papers. Without a permanent form of ID, they will have to have a scrappies tag in their ear. This might be alright for a meat animal, but inevitably the tag will get ripped out and be an eye sore. I raise registered Mini Alpines and love the MDGA. They are a great registry that is easy to work with!
Vanessa


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

Our fair requires them to have the scrapies tag even if they DO have a tattoo. We checked because we routinely tattoo our rabbits (show rabbits have to have an ear tattoo) so we had everything needed to do it -- and thought it would be simpler to tattoo the ears with the scrapies tag numbers. So ours have ear tags. Haven't had one ripped out yet (knock on wood). But they are an eyesore anyway.


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