# OMG NOT AGAIN



## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

I haven’t posted in a while but have a quick question. I know goats go into heat every month but can they decide when they want to get pregnant? I have 2 does, one is 10 and one is a 1 1 1/2. The young one didn’t come into heat for the first time until September. The reason I say that is because she was swollen and VERY noisy. And the billys were in with the does until August and she didn’t get pregnant. Now the 10 yr old IS pregnant and I swear she was knocked up in June but she still hasn’t kidded and it’s looking like December before she does. This will be the second pregnancy where she’ll deliver in December. So that’s why I’m asking if they can chose which heat cycle to get pregnant. Also, is standing heat different than just heat. And can they be in heat and not have a standing heat.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No. They can't choose. If you just leave males in with females, you don't have a due date, you have a due range. Just because you see a breeding, doesn't mean it took that time.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

"Standing" heat, very simply put, is a period of time within heat where the doe is the most receptive. In a lot of my does, standing heat happens on day 2 of being in heat.


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

Does standing heat happen every heat cycle?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

If it is a true heat, yes, they'll have a standing heat within it.

Most breeding seasons don't start until September. I've had heat behaviour during the summer, but they don't settle. I think their systems are simply getting started up then but eggs aren't being released yet. I don't know what breed your goats are, but if they are not year round breeder breeds, you may simply have had the bucks in during the wrong time. What breed(s) do you own?

Difficulty in settling may be due to health issues such as uterine infections, or being polycystic. And more commonly due to mineral deficiencies. What loose mineral mix do you offer?


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

I have a boer doe (she’s the one that’s pregnant) and 1 dwarf (weathered) and and 2 (1/2 boer 1/2 dwarf) one doe and one billy. I thought goats cycle every 21 days. But you’re saying they cycle but don’t release eggs but in September? Then how do you have kidding in the summer/fall.


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

I have a boer doe (she’s the one that’s pregnant) and 1 dwarf (weathered) and and 2 (1/2 boer 1/2 dwarf) one doe and one billy. I thought goats cycle every 21 days. But you’re saying they cycle but don’t release eggs but in September? Then how do you have kidding in the summer/fall.


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

I have attached a pic of her. She may look like her hair is falling out but it’s where she’s been rubbing her sides on the pine trees. Her measurements are as follows...
Front belly - 48”
Middle - 52”
Rear, in front of udders - 43”

How many kids are in there? Last time she had 3 (2 billys & a doe) lost them all. I am gonna raise this batch.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Griz said:


> I thought goats cycle every 21 days. But you're saying they cycle but don't release eggs but in September? Then how do you have kidding in the summer/fall.


Let me try again, because I've confused us both. In the following explanation, I am ignoring using a vet and hormones to artificially cause estrus (coming into heat)

Most goats are seasonal breeders. The breeding season is from approximately September until approximately January. (Approximately) That is the only time you can count on most goats breeding.

Some goats are year round breeders, but even then, they most often breed during the regular season.

Nigerian Dwarves and Pygmies are pretty good about being year round breeders. Pretty reliable that way. Any goats I've had kid when it wasn't the usual time to kid have been NDs, Pygmies, or 1/2 crosses with either of those breeds

Boers are regarded as being year round breeders, but around here where I live, that just isn't really the case. Around here, they breed during the season, but the season can start a month or 2 earlier if they have excellent, correct nutrition.

Nubians CAN be year round, but they've become so Europeanized now, gotten further from their African origins, that they are pretty much regarded as seasonal breeders.

Gestation (pregnancy) lasts approximately 5 months. So if someone settles (is successfully impregnated) in September, then she'll kid in February. If she settles in January, she'll kid in June.

It is involved and tricky to get goats to kid naturally other than between January and July.

During the summer, my does do start exhibiting heat behaviour, but they rarely settle during that time. I am convinced that is my does' hormonal systems gearing up for the real thing. Especially when they are young. Puberty is weird, no matter what the species.

There are ways to use hormones artificially to achieve estrus. I don't do that and can't help with that, but there is info online. Look up CIDR.

Also look up Rutting Season for Bucks, Breeding Season for Goats, Year Round Goat Breeding. You will probably find an explanation of all of this that is not as confusing as I seem to have made it.

Proper nutrition can help with settling, especially when they aren't in the correct season. Mineral deficiencies do prevent conceptions or full term carrying. So again, what loose mineral mix do they have available?


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

They are on straight pasture in summer/fall/spring and grain in winter. They have mineral blocks year round and get treats every day. Oranges/bananas/carrots, etc. they are wormed/b-complex/power punch/and calcium every 3 months. What do you think of her measurements? How many in there?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Griz said:


> What do you think of her measurements? How many in there?


No Idea, seriously.


Griz said:


> They are on straight pasture in summer/fall/spring and grain in winter.


Does the pasture include any brush, or shrubs? Or is it only grass? Do you only give grain/concentrates in the Winter, or also hay? And if you give hay, what kind of hay?

The hay I give is (some years) pretty poor, and (some years) a really nice legume mix. It is important to know what is being given, so the rest of the feed can be adjusted around it.


Griz said:


> they are wormed... every 3 months.


With what, and for what, are they wormed every 3 months? And is it only 1 time, or 3 times 10 days apart? (to take care of hatched eggs)


Griz said:


> They have mineral blocks year round


So not a loose mix, then? We HIGHLY recommend a loose mineral mix made for cattle or goats (not sheep and goats, because there is no copper in that) Please do consider a loose mineral mix. I think many of your issues will go away once they have minerals. The blocks just don't supply what they need, except for salt. There is nothing wrong with giving them salt, but not to the exclusion of the other minerals.


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

It’s grass and shrubs. Grain and hay, I believe it’s rye. We use cydectin, the vet recommended it cause our area is bad for barber poll worms and that’s why we do every 3 months. We did a series about 2 yrs ago to get all the worms and now we do every 3 months to maintain. The mineral block is not just salt, it has a bunch of minerals in it so I thought it was better then just the salt block.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Griz said:


> It's grass and shrubs.


That's excellent.


Griz said:


> Grain and hay, I believe it's rye


I'm glad you have the hay, not just the grain. But is the rye the grain? or is the rye the hay?


Griz said:


> We use cydectin, the vet recommended it cause our area is bad for barber poll worms and that's why we do every 3 months.


My vet likes the Cydectin oral sheep drench as a go-to for worming. But he insists I give a course only when there are eggs found, and he also insists that we do a course of 3 drenches 10 days apart. He is not a believer in trying to chemically prevent something. He says we can't chemically prevent, we can only chemically treat. Management practices are the only thing that can prevent.


Griz said:


> The mineral block is not just salt, it has a bunch of minerals in it so I thought it was better then just the salt block.


And that is what most of us would immediately think. But it is incorrect. A mineral salt block is good for salt. Loose minerals are good for minerals. If you will switch, you will solve a lot, if not most, of your problems. 
If you have a TSC in your area (I mention TSC only because it is very common throughout the U.S.A.) Look for one of these products. Either








Or








The first one is the better product, but either would be very helpful to you, please believe me.


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

The hay is rye. I will give it a try


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

Hello everyone..... Well my pregnant goat is down... she is the one that lost/rejected her babies last year at this time. Here is what's happening, yesterday I went to give her a treat and give her some calcium/power punch & B12, I've been doing that every other week for the last 2 months to keep the babies from depleting her strength. She was limping, nothing new there she is a drama queen, and we keep her hoofs pretty trimmed but we hadn't checked them in awhile so since we decided to check them while we were giving her the other stuff. Anyway, all was good last night, gave her some sweet feed and all was good, woke up this morning and she wouldn't get up felt babies move yesterday. I fixed up some warm water and molasse to give her some energy, she drank 3 quarts straight. I decided to give her a couple of hours and see if she would get up. Just went out to check again and she still wont get up, we've tried to help her cause she wants to get up but just doesn't have the strength, she is not running a fever, poop is good, she's peeing, she is eating her cud but nothing else. Not much movement on right side and her left side seems bloated but cant really tell since she is laying down and she just spreads out like a blob. She's due by end of month Here are my questions: 1) can the babies be pressed against a nerve causing her to not want to get up 2) can laying too long kill the babies 3) if the babies die will she deliver them full term or will she go into early labor to get rid of the dead babies 4) is there a way to get her up without harming the babies


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did you check her ketones? You can get ketone strips from the drug store.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I would strongly suspect pregnancy toxemia


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

I just read up on toxiemia and she has all those symptoms. Now how do I treat it and should I induce labor to get the babies out? I really don’t want to lose momma or the kids. The last time she kidded we lost all Of them (3 kids) and it just about killed me. I’m not breeding her again since she has had problems both times.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Look up something called magic. It’s corn oil and molasses. Is she eating? If she is still eating then give her foods high in calcium and energy. Alfalfa of course for calcium and good source of energy is shredded beat pulp and corn. DO NOT give a lot of corn if you add it or you will have a doe with acidosis and that is a whole other nightmare. In fact if she is getting grain with corn in it (look at the label) don’t add more. 
Inducing is going to be your call. It will get the kids out which is what is basically killing her but if she is too far out the kids will not make it. I wouldn’t induce a doe more then a week before her due date if I expected her kids to live. If you are asking what would you do if you were in this situation, I would probably hold off on inducing if she is eating and start giving her the magic and adding in shredded beat pulp. See if that will help her get back on her feet. If she is not eating then I would induce. You need to be aware that a doe can go down and turn for the worse very fast with this. Bottom line I look at it as I have more love and money invested in that doe then her unborn kids. Cruel? Right? Wrong? I don’t know that’s why I say it is your call.


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

All she’s eating is her cud. I just gave her a gallon of warm water with an ounce of molasses in it. She just got grain yesterday after being on pasture all spring and summer.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think she should be eating something if she is eating her cud, and actually eating cud is a good sign. I would go ahead and put some alfalfa hay in front of her, do the magic and if she is not used to grain start her fairly slow. It’s kinda a pain in this case if she is not used to grain but try and do your best getting her on it without giving her too much to fast. 
If you do not have the meds to induce I would go ahead and get them to have ready to go if you make that choice. The doe I lost we held off on inducing her and the vet never paid attention to having the drugs and when I decided it was time he was trying to hunt it down. Long story short we were too late. 
OH!!! Give her a little dark beer too. Not only is it good for the rumen but it does something.......I should probably not even attempt to explain it, (send goathiker a message and ask why) but something to do with the liver. I had a doe that her rumen shut down and was off feed. She ended up getting PT on top of that. I started her on dark beer for her rumen since I figured that was going to be the most important thing to focus on and I didn’t want to keep messing her rumen up with the magic or other crud to treat PT. Anyways I had ketone strips and sure enough I watched her levels drop. That’s another thing I suggest. The strips will tell you how bad off she is and if what you are doing is helping or she is getting worse


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Magic recipe. 1 part molasses: 2 parts light Kayro syrup: 1 part corn oil give 5-10 cc Used for stress, dehydration, loss of appetite


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

Thank you for all the help but unfortunately she died during the night.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I am sorry that you lost her.


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

I am so, so sorry! That is devastating, especially after what you went through with her last year.  (((hugs)))


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry you lost her.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

So sorry that happened, you tried very hard and fought like a champion to help her through.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh no!! I am so very sorry


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Hm, I should not have begun to read this thread ... So sorrowly! (So far I haven't found the smilies, but I do weep on this. Poor goat, and poor owner!)


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> Hm, I should not have begun to read this thread ... So sorrowly! (So far I haven't found the smilies, but I do weep on this. Poor goat, and poor owner!)


Smilies on the right, sixth button from that end, at top of message box.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

So sorry you lost her. You did everything you could though.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

So sorry.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am very sorry.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

You did all you could. So very sorry you lost her.


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

Thank you all so much and for the advice and support. Sorry I didn’t reply til now. I just don’t know what I’m doing wrong.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You are very welcome. :hug:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh please don’t worry about not getting back on here. We all understand. I don’t know if you did anything wrong. I have honestly never heard of a doe with PT passing that fast before. She may have had something totally out of your hands going on instead or as well. The only chance to get that answer though is a necropsy. I know your heart is broken, and I’m sure you are beating yourself up just off your comment and the fact I do the same thing when I loose one, but please don’t. You did everything you could to save her. You showed her love and gave her a wonderful life. No that does not make the pain for you any less but you did good by her (hugs)


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

Finally got babies. Two does about 2lbs each. They are dwarfs so the weight is good, they both nursed within the hr but the 2 nd one is scrawny and not as agile as the first. Should I supplement her or wait and if I wait how long do I wait? Can she still nurse if I bottle her some?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Congratulations!

I would go every 2-4 hours and help the leaner one by making sure she nurses well.


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

She made it through the night and they both were standing with momma this morning. Very alert too. I’m very happy I will continue to monitor them every 2-4 hrs.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good to hear.


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

All is well, I think. They are up and running and jumping and being playful. Momma is real protective and is constantly on guard. She goes out and grazes but not for long, she’s constantly looking back at the barn, so I know she’s ok but I have a few questions. 

They only babies I’ve had experience with were bottle (the momma died) or dead babies. So I’m wondering if I’m thinking to much instead of letting momma deal with them?

Their poop is yellow, that’s normal right? 

They sleep a lot during the day and start coming out about 4. It’s getting close to 90 here during the day so I’m thinking they just want to stay inside. Am I thinking right?

The runt that I was worried about is nursing, latching on for about 5 secs, her poop is yellow, she’s running and jumping like her sister. Is this all normal? Both are starting to follow momma (and us) around the pasture. 

I have attached some pics


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Being a protective mama is normal. 

I am concerned about the hunched kid.
Check the kids bellies, be sure they are full.
Has that kid pooed lately?
Get a temp on that kid.

Let mama be mama.

Yes yellow, that’s normal.

Being hot out, it is good they do not stay in the sun. They will over heat. 
Don't force it. Being out a little bit is OK.

How old are the kids now?

Short nursing times is normal, as long as the kids bellies are full feeling and not empty.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Im concerned about the weight as 2lbs is on the smaller side and it doesnt look like mommas pure so you should be getting babies that are heavier. If this weight continues after more breedings maybe that is something that should be addressed.

Weigh them regularly as this can help make sure they are eating enough.


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

She’s not hunched I can’t remember what she was doing but I think she just got done scratching her head.

Yes they both are pooping regular and they are 3 days old today. 

They both are drinking water too. 

Mom and dad both are 1/2 breeds and they were alittle scrawny when they were born. They didn’t start filling out til they were 3-4 weeks old and I was bottle feeding. The momma was really scrawny when she was born, she was the runt. 

Their belly’s are firm not hard and not mushy


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## Iluvlilly! (Apr 6, 2019)

Glad to hear!!


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

What about panting? Is it normal for kids this young to pant? They are fine and no panting in mornings and evenings when it’s cooler but during the day it’s hot.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Panting is not normal but I don't know how hot it is for you. Do they have a place to get out of the sun? Is there somewhere they can get in front of a fan?


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## Griz (Jul 6, 2017)

It was up in the 90s today. We took two of the sides down on their shelter to open it up more and they were much better. They even came out in the pasture earlier than usually. We have another area where we are keeping the billy and wether but there are two ponds and I didn’t want to chance them falling in. They were running on a post we had laying near the shelter. The scrawny one is really starting to chow down. I think they are gonna be okay but I’ll still keep a close eye.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If they are nursing and otherwise acting normal with normal temp, they are OK, just watch them and make sure they are not in the sun for too long, they can over heat, some are not smart enough to go to the shade.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Yellow poop often means that some of the fat from the milk just runs through. Not wished for, but I know no remedy.


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