# dead buckling, what happened??



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

Sad day here on the farm. I'd appreciate your thoughts on what happened, and prayers for my goats Bandera and Spirit and the unborn kids in their womb. Bandera is due to kid today and Spirit is due to kid in 2 weeks. I went out this morning found a dead buckling. I'm guessing it was either born dead, or died shortly after birth during the night last night. Weird thing is I have no idea which doe it's out of since neither Bandera or Spirit have the normal bloody goo afterbirth hanging out their back end like they always have after giving birth. And normally the doe's udder fills up with milk about 24 hours before they have their kids, and Bandera's udder has not filled up yet. I can't notice any difference in the size of either of their bellies, both still appear very "full" and pregnant. I can't even find any bit of blood or anything on either doe. I'm guessing it's out of Bandera since she is due today, but Spirit has been being a bit harassed by Promise's 2 kids jumping on her the last several weeks, which some have said could possibly cause a miscarriage. Praying that the rest of the kids in Bandera and Spirit are OK and born healthy and lively.

here is a post and a link I started on how Promise's kids have been jumping on Spirit's back

https://www.facebook.com/permalink....637973&notif_t=like&notif_id=1489868356728873

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f217/possible-cause-miscarriage-191399/

thanks


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

Here are some photos


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Do you have other does that you could have missed signs of a pregnancy on?


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I saw typing as you were posting those pictures. I would guess that a different goat had this baby, and you didn't think she was pregnant. Check the rear ends of all your goats.

Just based on color, the kid looks like the doe on the right side of the third picture.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The buckling was all cleaned off? Definitely check all your girls.


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

thanks for all the replies and prayers! lot of questions have been answered! it was the young doe on the right in the 3rd photo, that gave birth. She is only about 12 months old now and I didn't know she was pregnant, so she would have been bred at 7 months age, and possibly by her father. So it's all making sense now. More to explain later, but it was an accidental breeding due to goats being extra pushy when in heat/rut and getting through very HOT electric fencing. 

question, she has a small udder with a little milk in it appears. should I milk her, or will her body absorb it on it's own? the plug from the orifice was not removed it appears that buckling was born dead or died shortly after and never got any colostrum/milk from the mother.

will she come back into heat soon? I'd like to breed her ASAP, she is about 12 months old now and was planning to breed her and her twin sister as soon as they come into heat

thanks

thanks


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

bornagain62511 said:


> thanks for all the replies and prayers! lot of questions have been answered! it was the young do on the right in the 2nd photo, that gave birth. She is only about 12 months old now and I didn't know she was pregnant, so she would have been bred at 7 months age, and possibly by her father. So it's all making sense now. More to explain later, but it was an accidental breeding due to goats being extra pushy when in heat/rut and getting through very HOT electric fencing.
> 
> question, she has a small udder with a little milk in it appears. should I milk her, or will her body absorb it on it's own? the plug from the orifice was not removed it appears that buckling was born dead or died shortly after and never got any colostrum/milk from the mother.
> 
> ...


 also, in addition to the questions above, is it OK for a doe not to have any afterbirth hanging from her after kidding like this? is there any reason for concern?

thanks


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

If this was my doe, I would:
~milk her-I'm paranoid about mastitis. 
~not breed her for at least three months.

She probably already passed and ate the afterbirth. Just keep an eye on her and take her temperature for the next 3-4 days. 

It's odd why that kid died-he's all cleaned off, and looks like he was up-I clicked on your FB link, and the picture you have of the other side is cleaned off too, like the doe was able to clean him all up before he died.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Sorry about the little guy. 
Mama should pass afterbirth very soon, sometime today.
I would milk her enough to relieve pressure & stimulate natural expulsion.
And save the colostrum.
Any dogs around that could have eaten placenta? Some does will eat it as well.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did you look around for the placenta? She just gave birth to a full term kid. You need to treat this like a regular birth. She needs time to recover. Especially since she was bred young. If it was cold out, he may have never been strong enough to get up and died from hypothermia.


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

so does everyone agree I should wait at least 3 months before breeding her again? what is the least amount of time I should wait to have her bred again?

yes the kid was all cleaned off, so apparently he lived for awhile. Yes it was cold, so he may have died from hypothermia. mother must have eaten any remaining placenta, but usually from past experience, they have the afterbirth hanging immediately after giving birth. perhaps she will pass more later today or tomorrow. 

she hardly has anything in her udder. I'm at work now, so I will have to check later and try to milk her out.

thanks


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

3 months would be minimum. More like 5 will be better.


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> 3 months would be minimum. More like 5 will be better.


ok, thanks


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

also, I had to edit a previous post . I had a typo. It was the doe on the far right side of the 3rd photo that gave birth. I had originally typed "2nd photo"


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All have really good advice and suggestions.

I agree, if it was cold and the baby was weak that could be a reason.
Or mamma being a first timer, may of not understood why the baby was trying to latch on and moved each time, may of been the cause as well. It is sad and I am very sorry for the loss. 

As mentioned, I would keep an eye on her and milk her as needed, if too tight. And dry her off.

I also would not re-breed her before her body has a long break and has the chance to snap back. 
And make sure she does not get a uterine infection. If she goes off feed, be sure to get a temp right away.


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> All have really good advice and suggestions.
> 
> I agree, if it was cold and the baby was weak that could be a reason.
> Or mamma being a first timer, may of not understood why the baby was trying to latch on and moved each time, may of been the cause as well. It is sad and I am very sorry for the loss.
> ...


thanks. yes it's too bad, had I know she was pregnant I could have been prepared and probably been there to help.

why watch for a uterine infection?? is that normal with first fresheners, or mother that lose a kid? what's the connection with that? and what do I watch for, other than body temp and going off feed are there any other signs?

thanks


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I would watch for infection because you're not sure if she passed the placenta-not sure if that's Toth Boer's thoughts too or not.

Another sign to watch for is the odor of the discharge. It shouldn't really smell at all. If it starts stinking really bad, you have an infection going on.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Ranger1 said:


> I would watch for infection because you're not sure if she passed the placenta-not sure if that's Toth Boer's thoughts too or not.
> 
> Another sign to watch for is the odor of the discharge. It shouldn't really smell at all. If it starts stinking really bad, you have an infection going on.


 Yes, my thought exactly. 

When we are unsure if they passed the afterbirth or not, we need to watch for infection. Also, we do not know if she is done kidding and may have a dead kid or a mummified kid in there, which will start infection. That is if that happened. It may not be, but you haven't seen the afterbirth to confirm.

Smelly discharge really reeks, putting on a new surgical glove, inserting just your finger tip inside the vulva and do the sniff test, will tell you earlier, if she is starting one. But isn't necessary if she is acting OK, unless you want to check her periodically. If she goes off feed, get a temp right away. 
When the infection if any, gets bad enough, just standing near them you can smell it. It is wise to watch her for 2 weeks in case. After that time and she is healthy and not sick, she will be OK.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

If she is healthy breed her at 2 months I do that with my girls that have single bucklings when they're healthy no need to wait longer!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Actually she should wait longer. You don't want problems down the road and you don't want to overbreed them and wear them out before their time.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

IF there is a retained kid she will go lethargic & off feed by about day 3.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

ksalvagno said:


> Actually she should wait longer. You don't want problems down the road and you don't want to hoverbreed them and wear them out before their time.


Especially when she's only 12 months old.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

ksalvagno said:


> Actually she should wait longer. You don't want problems down the road and you don't want to overbreed them and wear them out before their time.


I know lots of you guys wait two plus years before breeding a doe but it's not necessary. Women can get pregnant after 3 months without "tiring" out goats are fine after 2 months especially if she doesn't have a nursing baby on her! Trust me she'll be fine!


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

She's a year it would be different if she was 4 months old. I breed my Nubians at 6 months and they grow to the same exact size as my 2 year old Nubian that's never been bred! I give them 2 months off if they have a dead newborn and my kikos get rebred after 2 months when I wean their single bucklings. I've never had a problem!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

When you are constantly breeding back anything right after giving birth, they will wear out much sooner than a goat bred once a year. It isn't healthy for women either to be constantly pregnant.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

When they have twins I wait 6 months to rebred and retire my girls at 9 years. As long as they're healthy they are fine


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

To get a clear understanding of whether or not it's good, we'd have to look into how many does you've had until nine years, how long they lived, their production, BCS, kid birth weights, weaning weights, conception rate, etc. Not just how big they grew.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ranger1 said:


> To get a clear understanding of whether or not it's good, we'd have to look into how many does you've had until nine years, how long they lived, their production, BCS, kid birth weights, weaning weights, conception rate, etc. Not just how big they grew.


Exactly! Wait about 3 or 4 years and see if it still works. I was exactly like you and thought this could be done, I even had a mentor telling me this was the way to go. What wasn't mentioned to me was that they were being fed dairy quality hay along with tons of grain. I don't even know how long his does live for. But usually I would get twins the first breeding, second I would get triplets then after that I had singles with skinny does and those kids didn't amount to anything. I'm not saying it can't be done but it is very few and far between that can do so and make it worth it and I can tell you right now that my mentor at the time saw his goats as a money sign, I'm sure there wasn't much care as to how long the does actually stay in service


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

All my girls get the best care I possibly can give them! I only do this if they have singles none of my girls have ever had triplets but I did buy three that came from a line that had twins and up. If they had triplets and more that would be a different story. If they have a single that died and the doe isn't nursing anything it will be 100% fine. I know you guys see your goat's as pet/family so do I but let's be realistic they are animals. They used to be wild and that there should tell you they didn't wait till they were 2 years old to breed and wait another year maybe two to rebreed. They got pregnant as soon as they came into heat! Yes our goats are a little different (breed to meet our needs) but it's still the same concept. I'm not trying to be rude in any way I love the info you guys give but sometimes you guys go a little over board on stuff that's nit really necessary I always respect your decisions and never say that everything you guys say is down right wrong. But she can rebreed after 2 months as long as she's at a healthy weight. If she had more than a single and is nursing some I would say differently but that's not the case.


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

thanks everyone for sharing. I milked her out last evening, it was probably about 18 hours more or less after she gave birth, and this was the first time she had been milked as it was obvious the kid never nursed. the teats were still plugged very tightly with the waxy plug. I only got 2.5 ounces out of her total, barely 1/4 cup. I worked on her as long as I could, getting every last drop out of her. Her udder is tiny, almost seems like her body knew the kid would die??

She is obviously sad and depressed, but was still eating last night. I will keep a close eye on her.

also, this answers the question I had in this thread http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f217/do-some-does-not-show-signs-being-heat-191128/

thanks again to all


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

JK_Farms, As with all animals that people try to compare to their wild counterparts, it doesn't work. Domestic goats have been bred for 100s or 1000s of years to have traits that we want, but that may not be very beneficial in the wild. Also, I would venture to guess that wild goats never make it to 9 years of age, and most probably don't live above 5 years.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

JK. There is a very well-defined breeding season in nature. Does don't just get bred back immediately. You don't see any does with babies in the fall.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

bornagain62511 said:


> thanks everyone for sharing. I milked her out last evening, it was probably about 18 hours more or less after she gave birth, and this was the first time she had been milked as it was obvious the kid never nursed. the teats were still plugged very tightly with the waxy plug. I only got 2.5 ounces out of her total, barely 1/4 cup. I worked on her as long as I could, getting every last drop out of her. Her udder is tiny, almost seems like her body knew the kid would die??
> 
> She is obviously sad and depressed, but was still eating last night. I will keep a close eye on her.
> 
> ...


When a goat has 1 kid, their bodies tell them not to produce as much. 
If a goat has twins or trips, most of the time their udders will be bigger. 
Good you milked her and checked her milk. 
Her udder may not be dropping more milk because it wasn't stimulated by a nursing kid and bumped for milk letdown.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

JK not being rude or anything but seeing as everyone is disagreeing with you, you might want to do some research and find out why. keep an open mind, if it were one or two people disagreeing thatd be one thing but if everyone is you might want to look into it.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

bornagain62511 said:


> thanks everyone for sharing. I milked her out last evening, it was probably about 18 hours more or less after she gave birth, and this was the first time she had been milked as it was obvious the kid never nursed. the teats were still plugged very tightly with the waxy plug. I only got 2.5 ounces out of her total, barely 1/4 cup. I worked on her as long as I could, getting every last drop out of her. Her udder is tiny, almost seems like her body knew the kid would die??
> 
> She is obviously sad and depressed, but was still eating last night. I will keep a close eye on her.
> 
> ...


You don't have to milk her if you don't think it's worth it. She should be able to just dry up. Keep checking her for the next week or so, because her milk might take several days to really come in. Otherwise, you don't have to milk her if you don't want.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

JK_Farms said:


> All my girls get the best care I possibly can give them! I only do this if they have singles none of my girls have ever had triplets but I did buy three that came from a line that had twins and up. If they had triplets and more that would be a different story. If they have a single that died and the doe isn't nursing anything it will be 100% fine. I know you guys see your goat's as pet/family so do I but let's be realistic they are animals. They used to be wild and that there should tell you they didn't wait till they were 2 years old to breed and wait another year maybe two to rebreed. They got pregnant as soon as they came into heat! Yes our goats are a little different (breed to meet our needs) but it's still the same concept. I'm not trying to be rude in any way I love the info you guys give but sometimes you guys go a little over board on stuff that's nit really necessary I always respect your decisions and never say that everything you guys say is down right wrong. But she can rebreed after 2 months as long as she's at a healthy weight. If she had more than a single and is nursing some I would say differently but that's not the case.


Really good advice by everyone. 
We are trying to teach, what works best for more years of productivity and the health of a goat. We are responsible for them and because they are domesticated, they are different than wild goats, most are seasonal breeders though, and don't have kids year around.

Over breeding, doe's limit the numbers of years a goat will live and be able to produce. You may get smaller kids, stretched out bellies on your doe, that never goes back into shape, prolapsing and unthriftiness and never regaining weight. 
I messed up once, re-bred a really nice doe too soon, she never prolapsed in the past and did not come from any lines that had the issue. 
She was ruined that way, it would come out and wouldn't go back in, so I had to gently put it in, until she kidded. Always worried if I tore her or not, putting it back in, because she would of died if it happened.
After a long period of time, I bred her and the same thing. Had to cull her, a huge loss, I will never do again. I lost quite a few years of productivity with that doe. This is one example. Her body did not have time to go back into shape before I bred her. This is one reason why, I really do not recommend re-breeding too soon after they have kidded.

It really doesn't matter if a goat has 1 or 3 kids, they still just gave birth.
Their bodies went through a lot and need time to recoup. 
Your doe was really young to breed to start with and not knowing if she dropped her afterbirth, she is at risk.

We know they are meat animals or milkers but, a goat is not just a goat and breeders should not just think money with them. 
An animal is life and we must treat them well and do what is best for them, not us. If overly bred, they may stop giving us the quality we strive for and that doesn't help what we are trying to achieve.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

JK_Farms said:


> I know lots of you guys wait two plus years before breeding a doe but it's not necessary. Women can get pregnant after 3 months without "tiring" out goats are fine after 2 months especially if she doesn't have a nursing baby on her! Trust me she'll be fine!


I believe the recommendation is at least 18 months between kids in people. It is very hard on a woman's body. It takes 3 months just to heal after giving birth. ( at least) just because you can doesn't mean you should or that it is healthy.

I probably would breed this goat in August, after 5 months.

I would milk her to relieve pressure but dry her off. Not lactating would make it less demanding on her body and able to support a normal pregnancy sooner.

She should have a minimum of three months off though.

Just like you're supposed to dry a lactating doe off and give her 2-3 months dry before kidding. Just because this was un-planned and you didn't get a kid out of it doesn't mean her body didn't just do it. I know that they are livestock but I think she will be better off with time off and you'll be less likely to decrease her overall lifetime productivity.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Just because you haven't had a problem yet doesn't mean it isn't going to happen


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

I guess you guys aren't understanding what I'm trying to say I mean it's fine to rebreed after 2 months if They only have one. Not if they have twins! I would never do that to my girls. I had one doe that I bred and she had a single and I waited several months before rebreeding cause she didn't look healthy enough. If they had twins I would wait 6 months then see if they are healthy enough. This isn't what I came up with. Several breeders have told me this and their does live up to 20 years! Like I said only singles and if they're healthy. Do you guys get what I'm trying to say? Lol I think this is easier to understand then what I said earlier today know I'm understanding a little bit. This isn't ment to sound rude in any way I promise!


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Even with one, pregnancy and labor still takes a toll on the mother's body,


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Having a baby takes takes a toll on everyone's body no matter how long you wait. She had a baby pass and She never got nursed she will be healthy in two months she's not nursing anything which helps her still be healthy. I'm just daryung what I've heard and seen. The people that I've go then this info from had goats since they were little and are now 70+ years I think they know their stuff.


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## LamanchaAcres (Jan 11, 2013)

Good advice by everyone. Everyones going to have there own opinions, but no matter a single, twins or more, it still takes a toll on a does body, and therefore i do agree with the others. Shes young, give her some time and rebreed in 5-6 months.


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

Sorry JK I disagree with you, however if it works for you it works for you and that is what you should continue doing. The part I disagree with is where you say commercial goat farms do this. 

I want to set the record straight on this as I would say I have a larger herd. I only breed once a year and I don't breed my Doelings until they are 1.5 years to kid at 2 I raise meat goats (boer, Spanish, kiko) and personally I would rather give the KIDS time to grow up before having to raise kids again this is my personal preference but at the end of the day I want that longevity out of my goats. If they miscarry, or only have a single they won't get bred until the next year. IMO singles aren't a bad thing for example this year I have a doe that had twins last year and a single kid this year. The kid she is raising this year is absolutely beautiful and growing like a weed this doe will not be culled or rebred before a next years breeding season. If this Doe had singles consistently or a single and a miscarry well it might be time to cull under the circumstances but she won't be getting rebred two months later. 

Sorry for hijacking the thread and going off on a tangent I just wanted to set the record straight that this isn't a practice of large goat farmers.

OP you can rebreed when you ultimately decide but I think it would be a mistake to not wait atleast 3 months as you said you didn't want her bred in the first place as she was young I would give her more time to keep growing before trying to get her to grow more kids but again my opinion and you will do what ultimately is best for you and your herd.


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

thanks to all who've posted, and no worries on hijacking the thread, I'm enjoying all the comments very much. Please keep it up.

thanks


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

heidivand said:


> Sorry JK I disagree with you, however if it works for you it works for you and that is what you should continue doing. The part I disagree with is where you say commercial goat farms do this.
> 
> I want to set the record straight on this as I would say I have a larger herd. I only breed once a year and I don't breed my Doelings until they are 1.5 years to kid at 2 I raise meat goats (boer, Spanish, kiko) and personally I would rather give the KIDS time to grow up before having to raise kids again this is my personal preference but at the end of the day I want that longevity out of my goats. If they miscarry, or only have a single they won't get bred until the next year. IMO singles aren't a bad thing for example this year I have a doe that had twins last year and a single kid this year. The kid she is raising this year is absolutely beautiful and growing like a weed this doe will not be culled or rebred before a next years breeding season. If this Doe had singles consistently or a single and a miscarry well it might be time to cull under the circumstances but she won't be getting rebred two months later.
> 
> ...


I never said what kind of goat farmer. I just said that I've gathered this info from SEVERAL goat farmers. And I'm just saying if the animal is HEALTHY remember it's just an animal not a human so they can handle a lot more than we can! Its my opinion not yours I respect that y'all think that you should wait a year but some people actually do this as a business and have to have kids. I'm not saying breed them 5-6 times a year no I'm just saying if they have a single breed them sooner if they're HEALTHY if they are super skinny don't wait till they look 100%. That's all I'm saying once your doe is giving twins wait 6-8 months. You've got to remember to add on 5 more months before the baby is born and they might not even take the first time. Like I said I love your opinions but everyone needs to respect others decisions. In the end y'all are going to do your thing and I'm going to do mine. OP asked how soon can she rebreed and I gave my opinion. She's going to have it 5 months after breeding so you have to take that into account. Also as long as the goat is 80Ibs or more she's fine to breed!


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

heidivand said:


> Sorry JK I disagree with you, however if it works for you it works for you and that is what you should continue doing. The part I disagree with is where you say commercial goat farms do this.
> 
> I want to set the record straight on this as I would say I have a larger herd. I only breed once a year and I don't breed my Doelings until they are 1.5 years to kid at 2 I raise meat goats (boer, Spanish, kiko) and personally I would rather give the KIDS time to grow up before having to raise kids again this is my personal preference but at the end of the day I want that longevity out of my goats. If they miscarry, or only have a single they won't get bred until the next year. IMO singles aren't a bad thing for example this year I have a doe that had twins last year and a single kid this year. The kid she is raising this year is absolutely beautiful and growing like a weed this doe will not be culled or rebred before a next years breeding season. If this Doe had singles consistently or a single and a miscarry well it might be time to cull under the circumstances but she won't be getting rebred two months later.
> 
> ...


I never said what kind of goat farmer. I just said that I've gathered this info from SEVERAL goat farmers. And I'm just saying if the animal is HEALTHY remember it's just an animal not a human so they can handle a lot more than we can! Its my opinion not yours I respect that y'all think that you should wait a year but some people actually do this as a business and have to have kids. I'm not saying breed them 5-6 times a year no I'm just saying if they have a single breed them sooner if they're HEALTHY if they are super skinny don't wait till they look 100%. That's all I'm saying once your doe is giving twins wait 6-8 months. You've got to remember to add on 5 more months before the baby is born and they might not even take the first time. Like I said I love your opinions but everyone needs to respect others decisions. In the end y'all are going to do your thing and I'm going to do mine. OP asked how soon can she rebreed and I gave my opinion. She's going to have it 5 months after breeding so you have to take that into account. Also as long as the goat is 80Ibs or more she's fine to breed!


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

JK I do run a business. And running down my does by breeding multiple times a year does not pay off IMO. I don't care if they are obese, perfect weight, or skinny the does reproductive system needs a break, her udder needs a break she needs minimum 60 days after weaning the last kids so her body can make new colostrum. And for gods sake she needs a break from demanding kids. 5 months of growing more babies is not a break. I have never heard of any other large producers breeding that soon after. Or twice a year and having good breeding stock at the end of it. 

I don't mean to argue with you. If that is how you want to farm your goats that's fine. I just want to make it clear that Out of all of the producers I have talked to nobody here is even breeding twice a year. My does are an investment if I can keep that investment healthy, and happy that investment produces healthy happy kids that grow fast I am using less wormer, less antibiotics, less vet costs. The minute they get run down is when the worms come in, stress related diseases and viruses show up. 

"Remember it's just an animal" no JK these are not JUST animals they are an investment and my livelihood so no just because maybe they can handle being rebred after 2 months does not mean I will do nor will I recommend to anybody that this is a good idea. Keep doing what your doing and I will keep farming and running a business like I have been doing.


Sorry again bornagain I just can't keep my mouth shut I guess!!!


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Just for anyone who finds this thread in the future i want to make it clear that breeding your goats more than once a year is not healthy and not recommended. Just because they can doesnt mean they should. Just because they look healthy now doesnt mean they will after doing this once or twice. YOUR GOATS HEALTH COMES BEFORE BUSINESS. 
Just to make it clear again, no one here recommends breeding more than once a year, regardless if your doe has 1 or 7. You all know how fast a goats health can change.
Just because some people do it doesnt mean you should too. 

Your does need a break inbetween kidding/pregnancy, 
Not being rude JK but there have been instances where the information you have been sharing is dangerous for the goats, since that is the case i suggest you take a look and possibly get a vet that knows more about goats and talk to different goat breeders because it sounds like your sources arent that reliable


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

You guys aren't understanding me at all I'm saying if they have a single I rebreed them I'm not saying I breed after two months I just said that's what I've heard from many breeders and they are great breeders! They're also Kiko breeders that handle a lot more than other breeds cause they are on their own and not kept up like other breeds. I breed three times in two years if they have a single the first time. If they have twins I breed them to have kids the next year. I agree does need a break I'm not saying breed them after 2 weeks but am saying you can breed at 2 months.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

How long have you been breeding? How many times have you bred a animal that had a single back after 2 months? You are going to find that that animal will keep giving you singles. I totally get the money part, honestly I do. This is my job, I don't have a 9-5 this is it. I can go back to my books and give you numbers, proof that this is not the way to go. That animal is going to have a single, your going to breed her back before she gets fat and sassy and most likely get a single again. I am telling you I have done this. You are going to end up with a lot of dinky singles and a really cruddy looking doe unless you are pouring the feed to them which will then eat up any profit you think you might get. When you are selling privately what the sire and dam look like are going to either make or break a sale. 
You want to try it? Go for it!! But till you have some years behind this management you can not honestly say this is the way to go. It doesn't matter what the breed is. I have 4 friends that raise kikos and they all agree only once a year. One actually had a fence crawling doe that was bred back to back 3 times and she looks so badly she had to order her a pony blanket to keep her warm this winter


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

If you NEED babies then consider getting another doe, and trading off on breeding , so you can have more babies without tiring out your doe


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

I have 11 does and am buying two more but they're 3 months.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

"It really doesn't matter if a goat has 1 or 3 kids, they still just gave birth.
Their bodies went through a lot and need time to recoup. 
Your doe was really young to breed to start with and not knowing if she dropped her afterbirth, she is at risk. 

We know they are meat animals or milkers but, a goat is not just a goat and breeders should not just think money with them. 
An animal is life and we must treat them well and do what is best for them, not us."

Pam, if you lived close by, I'd come and kiss you.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

mariarose said:


> JK, Please don't buy any more goats. Your previous posts, along with your contributions to this post, are evidence that you are not the most rational of animals.... And yes, despite your inadequate biology knowledge, humans ARE animals.


This is going too far-remember, keep it friendly, keep it fun. This is not a forum where we attack people personally.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

JK, I am very sorry for what I started-I just wanted to have a civil, howbeit disagreeing discussion, but now everybody's jumping on you and it's turning personal. I'm so sorry...


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Jk, I have to respectfully disagree with you, but the number of kids really doesn't matter. 
5 months should be the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM!
I will breed back at 5 months, but only once, then back to a 7 month schedule. 
2 months is waaay too soon. Yes they _can_ but you are going to have problems in the future. They aren't machines you can just keep pumping babies out of. 
I have an 8 year old doe that was accidentally bred back 4 months after kidding, I didn't know she was bred till we found her babies in the pasture. I can see it's taken a toll on her, she had a much harder time holding her production this time and it's been a chore keeping her in good health. I will probably give her at least a 10 month break to make up for it.
Your goats health needs to come before business, and not matter what the old breeders are telling you, breeding back after 2 months(NO MATTER HOW MANY KIDS!) is not healthy.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

mariarose said:


> JK, Please don't buy any more goats. Your previous posts, along with your contributions to this post, are evidence that you are not the most rational of animals.... And yes, despite your inadequate biology knowledge, humans ARE animals.


JK, stuff like this is going way too far.
This forum, for the most part, is great about keeping arguments about the topic, and not personal attacks. I commend you for NOT getting nasty, when everyone disagrees with you. Most of us are absolutely not trying to be rude or unkind.
The mods usually shut down a thread if it can't keep going without people getting nasty.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree that was super rude! No one should say that. You are here because you do want to take care of your goats and do the best you can, we have different management idea and there is nothing wrong with that at all. There is a difference between a civil debate and being nasty and if what I said came off as nasty I apologize. I do not agree with you and I was trying to point to why I do not but in no way was I trying to belittle you in any way. I think every single one of us does something that not everyone agrees with and we should keep that in mind


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Keep it friendly, keep it fun. No personal attacks on anyone. Don't care if you disagree with them, no one deserves to be personally attacked. Discussion is fine, attacking others is not and that includes attacking JK Farm or anyone else. If the discussion can't stay civil, then the thread will be shut down.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, out of line there. We are here to teach, if someone doesn't want to take advice, that is OK, we cannot force them.

We care about animals here and I see it with everyone's concerns. However, the personal attack didn't need to happen.
JK_Farms is here on TGS which is good. Not like some, who do not seek advice and do not want to learn anything about goats.
They are the ones who say, a goat is just a goat. 

So please, keep it friendly keep it fun. I only clicked the liked on mariarose post, because something was said nice about what I posted, thank you maria for that. But not the part of the personal attack on the bottom of the post. It was a bit out there.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

I ment 2 months after weaning not 2 months after birth. I don't take you guys as being mean trust me! I will take your advice into consideration. I love my animals and will keep buying if I choose to (not being rude just saying) thank you guy for your input I really want you guys to know that I don't think your being rude and I'm not trying to either. thanks for your apologies and I apologies if I sounded rude too I'm not trying to be.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

2 months after weaning is much better I wean my kids around 4 months, so two months later would be 6 months, at which point I would feel safe re breeding.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

That eases a lot of minds, thank you for correcting that. 

You have not been rude, no worries.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

yes maybe I should have mentioned that lol I let my does wean their kids unless they had a buckling that thinks he can start humping at 2 months. even with that I wait a little longer so the doe can fatten up a bit. sorry should have been more clear on that!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:thumbup::-D


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

JK_Farms said:


> Now me as a human I don't consider myself as an animal cause no matter how you look into it we aren't animals. If we were we would not have been able to invent the things we have. Sorry that's off topic OP. That's all I had to say but I am truly sorry if I had offended you in any matter.


AMEN, humans are not animals, we were created by God, in His image and likeness. Genesis 1:26-31 26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, _I have given_ every green plant for food"; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Humans are mammals, **** sapiens, & part of the Animal Kingdom--no way around that scientific reality, & it's always best to avoid discussing religions & politics. 

I wanted to offer my sympathies to the original poster of this thread, & the poor bereaved mother doe. :rose: Some pregnancies really don't show that much.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

bornagain62511 said:


> AMEN, humans are not animals, we were created by God, in His image and likeness. Genesis 1:26-31 26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, _I have given_ every green plant for food"; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.


I'm a Christian too, but I believe we are animals. Nowhere in the Bible does it draw a line between humans and animals-at least if there is, I haven't found it. It says about _beasts_, not animals. Humans and beasts are different, but both are animals. When scientists decided to classify living beings into two categories, plant and animal, humans ended up in the animal category, because we aren't plants. We _are_ different and more important and and "ruler" of _beasts_-animals are another story.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

This thread is now closed. Thank you to all who answered the OP's question. It is heading back to personal attacks and off topic. The offending posts have been removed.


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