# bonding with kids that havent been bottle fed



## gotgoats2 (Jan 8, 2009)

2 1/2 weeks ago, I bought three 4 1/2 month old Alpine bucks. They had never been around people. At first they were fenced in on 1/2 an acre (with my 3 year old whither) but they wouldn't let me get close to them, so I put them in a 16 x 16 pen - so they were easier to get close to. After about a week they started to approach me (skiddishly) cuz they figured out that I always had food or treats. 

I really want them to get comfortable with me and I'd like some advice on how to do that. Should I seperate them? (it seems like when one starts to get more comfortable, the others spook then they all run off again). I know it will take time & effort, but does anyone have any suggestions on how to bond with them and make them more comfortable being around people?


----------



## Rod Meyer (Jun 1, 2009)

Welcome gotgoats2! 

I did the same thing a couple months ago too. Bought a few goats from 3 to 4 months old. They were not bottle feed. I also have a 3 month old bottle feed Alpine. I'm no expert, just got into them but I think just spending time with them every day. I take my goats on walks almost every day and spend a lot of time with them all, even in their pen. We walk between 1 to 2 miles a day up and down hills through creeks, cross country and on good trails. They are all really friendly now. Although I have to admit my Lamancha was the friendly of them all when I first got them and still is. 

Try to take them on walks. Don't linger along at first. Keep walking steady with out stoping. They don't want to be left behind and they will trust you as their leader. As time goes by take your time stop let them eat and play then get up call them and move out they will be qiuck to follow.

Have fun Rod


----------



## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

*Re: bonding with kids that haven't been bottle fed*

The way you describe them is almost like a wild animal. They have apparently had little or no human contact so things need to be done a little differently then it would with goats who were used to people but simply hadn't been handled much. I bought kids like that in the beginning and have tamed them down enough to use as packers but its not a sure thing. Their age will help them adapt but you're going to have to work at it. As was suggested you'll need to spend a lot of time with them so they are comfortable around you.

I'd start by penning them separately. Then only feed them by hand. With mine, they went hungry a couple of days before they decided to eat with me standing beside the food. After a week or so they began to look forward to seeing me because they only got to eat when I was there. Once they were comfortable eating around me I began touching them while they ate. They freaked all over again but I was persistent and they could only eat if I was gently petting them.

Once you have them eating out of your hand and letting you pet them you can probably turn them back out together. Try to let them bond with a reliable packer in your string which will be very helpful later.

I had twin goats that I did this with. Both were wild when I got them and they eventually let me pet them while they ate but one never totally trusted me and didn't make a packer. The other decided to pack but was always hard to catch unless I had treats in my hand. Thats pretty typical of unbonded goats.

I don't recommend turning them all loose to see if they will follow you. I've had unbonded goats run away from me without a backward glance and head off for parts unknown. I had a heck of a time getting them caught again. This is especially true if they have a buddy willing to go with them. They don't feel any bond toward humans and therefore won't feel a need to stay with you.

Work with them for several weeks until they seem fairly comfortable around you and seem to be hanging with one of your older goats. Once you get to that point you can carefully try them on the trail. The only way I would even consider turning them loose is one at a time with a reliable packer they are bonded to. They may not want to hang with me but they most likely will not leave another goat they are familiar with. Test it in an area where you can be reasonably sure you can catch the goat if it starts to leave. (ie. have treats ready to offer the goat to help get it caught if necessary) A big fenced pasture that was strange to the goat would be ideal.

If I know the goat is borderline I'll keep a close eye on it. If it stops I'll keep walking to force it to make a decision. This is the make or break point. Either the goat will decided to come with me and a familiar goat or it will leave us and strike out on its own. That decides the matter for me right there. The majority of the time they bawl and complain but come with us rather than be left behind. If it says "the heck with you guys" and heads out on its own I'll break out the treats and catch it. Once I get home I get rid of it. Feed is too expensive to keep a goat that doesn't want to contribute to the program. It will always be hard to catch and pretty soon its nervous behavior when you go in the pen will rub off on other goats in your herd.

Thats a whole lot of issues to worry about. Its also the reason I always recommend getting bottle raised kids for packers, or at least kids who were handled regularly and are reasonably friendly. They are just a whole lot more fun and worry free.


----------



## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

Another quick tip for first hikes is to tie your kid to his older buddy who is bonded to you and let them lead together down the trail. That keeps the little guy in line.


----------



## gotgoats2 (Jan 8, 2009)

Thanks guys.
They have gotten better. When I go out to feed them, they come to the fence excited to have some treats/food. It's just when I get in the pen with them that they get skiddish. I have caught them one at a time and put them on a lead then walked them around in the field, which they don't like! I sit in their pen for at least an hour a night and talk to them. I think I'm going to put them in separate pens, that might help. I'm in no hurry to get them to come around - I'd just like some exercises that might be fun for them, and also help with the bonding process.


----------



## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

don't start already with serious training like leading. Get them more comfortable around you without much restraining. Petting, touching, grooming, hand-feeding until they trust you not to hurt them or get them in trouble. Then you can start leading and other stuff. They should show first signs of being wiling to follow you without a restraint before you "force" them with a lead.


----------



## gotgoats2 (Jan 8, 2009)

Yea I dont think I will lead them arond for a while.
They did not like that. Any suggestions besides spending time with them and feeding them for the bonding process. Any games, toys, exercises, etc..


----------



## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

every game, exercise, etc. will need trust and you still have to build that.

Been there, doing that right now (again, this time with cattle, not with goats which is WAY harder). I have one goat, born at our premises, that due to unlucky circumstances during his birth and first year took three years (!) to tame and bond.

I can second what Rex said: small groups, pen them together with tame goats so they can learn from them that people aren't goat-eating monsters. BUT make sure that the tame goats won't butt them away from you - they will then learn that it's better for them to stay away from you.

You may want to look into clicker training and learning theories (positive, negative reinforcement, etc.) and how some people tame wild mustangs with the principles of this method.


----------



## ohiogoatgirl (Jan 31, 2010)

try just sitting in the pen and watching them for a while every day. after a week or so walk around the pen nonchalantly for a while eveyday. after about a week or so they will expect you to be there and probably will watch you just to see what the heck you are doing.  then sit in the pen with some feed on the ground right in front of you. once they start eating it, pet them. they will probably run at first but soon they will learn that you are not going to harm them and they will have to get petted if they want that feed!  after a while they will probably follow you just out of habit of looking for a snack.


----------



## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

I once tried to bond with a baby bear...

The prestigious military academy had a live bear for a mascot for nearly a century when, sometime prior to my senior year, they decided to replace it with a guy in a bear costume. I asked what the reasoning was, and was informed that they were difficult to care for, and difficult to get rid of. Using my trained initiative I figured that if I owned the bear, the apparent difficulties would be overcome because I would surely care for my bear and I would find a way to get rid of it.

So I drove to Boston to buy a bear. After I had loaded him in the travel cage the zoo keeper said something about needing an exotic animal permit, and being in uniform, I mumbled something about the state not being able to regulate the Fed.

It was late Friday by the time we got back to the dorm. Many had already traveled to Long Island for our first football game of the season on Saturday. So I figured I had all night to get the bear into a harness and get accustomed to being led. You may be imagining that this baby bear was a cute and cuddly teddy type thingy. 

It's amazing how large wild animals are when they aren't in the wild. I would guess that a fifty pound bear cub would have paws as large as my hands seeing how this eighty pound bear had paws that were much larger.

You should know that nothing can make a bear angrier than placing him in a travel cage and hauling him for hours in a van, then locking him in a closet... except forcibly weaning him before you do that. So I put the bear cage in the broom closet, with the harness in hand, and locked us in.

I got behind the cage as I freed him to the larger confines of the broom closet. About this time it occurred to me that perhaps this was not the most intelligent thing I had ever done. 
Fortunately, since the door was locked no one would unsuspectingly open it to be confronted with the shredded body of a cadet, even if they were tempted to do so by screams sounding like someone was being mauled by a bear.

Realizing that one of us was going to get bit, I jumped on him and bit him behind the ear. I am not sure how long I held him there, but I was not about to let him up until he fell asleep. The next day we walked on the football field to the cheers of the cadet corps.

I share this only because if I were in the same situation with a new baby goat, my instincts would say that you lock yourself in a confined area at night with it, and only a dim light. You have others make scary noises through the night while you just sit in close proximity and if you can, just hold it all night.

The experts here are likely not to approve, but they won't tell you to lock yourself in a closet with a bear either. Next time around I may listen to some experts.


----------



## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

Actually, holding an animal can be a very good way of getting it to trust you. Cuzco was never touched before we got him, and the poor little thing was caught, weaned, banded, vaccinated, stuffed in a box and shipped to a new home all in the space of about an hour. So his natural tendency to be nervous around people turned into fully justified terror. I had to keep him locked in a spare horse stall for a few days lest he head for the hills. Once he bonded to my horse I was able to let him out of the stall, but I had to leave a 20-foot rope tied around his neck so I could have any hope of catching him. 

I spent a great deal of time with Cuzco every day, and most of that time was spent holding him. He would tremble violently every time I picked him up, so I picked him up a lot and held him while I talked and sang to him until he fell asleep. During that time I was also waiting for an overdue colt to be born, and as this was a very special mare with her first foal, I got nervous and started sleeping in the barn. Since my mare, Easter, wasn't too fond of Cuzco, I decided it would be much safer for him to sleep in the spare stall with me at night--I didn't need my precious new baby goat getting stomped to death by an over-protective mare with a new foal! I think sharing sleeping quarters sealed the bond, and I've decided that there's no sound more soothing to fall asleep to than the sound of a goat quietly chewing his cud.  

Once Jet was born, the two younguns bonded immediately. Since Jet was a very outgoing foal right from the beginning, Cuzco started being interested in people too. There's nothing like a bit of jealousy to make an animal suddenly be your friend!


----------



## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

this winter I made the experience that some type of goats need another approach for taming.

these two are smart kids, born here but although I spent a lot of time with them in the first weeks after birth they turned "wild" during the late summer/autumn. Having chipped and ear-marked them didn't help much in that regard.

I used my normal approach in the first winter weeks - treats and petting but both very soon figured out that they can snatch the food and avoid the petting. So I switched to "force knoodling". I'll restrain them by holding the collar and pet them as long as it takes for them to settle down and accept being touched and handled. Then they have to wait a bit longer and stay calm before they get their treat and I release them. I found with this two that they learned how they can avoid being touched by moving away from me fast = wrong connection of actions. Now they learn that they have to tolerate being touched without a chance to get away to get a treat.

I wouldn't use this on goats that get worse when being restrained and touched, meaning who more and more move away and show no improvement but it was the right way of action for these two.

I still have to figure out a plan of action for candidate no.3 who takes food out of my hand willingly but freaks every time when being restrained.


----------



## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

*Re: bonding with kids that haven't been bottle fed*

I've had good luck with a horse training technique where you put the goat in a round pen or confined lot. I use a round pen more often than not. The goat will naturally run from me around the perimeter of the pen while I walk small circles in the center. When the goat slows I move in and make it run again by waving my arms over my head and yelling "hey!". I keep this up until the goat is visibly worn out and wanting to slow every few feet. This usually takes 15 or 20 minutes the first time. When I think it is sufficiently tired, I'll move in front of the goat and allow it to stop if it continues to face me. If it turns its butt to me I'll move in arms waving and make it run around again. I repeat this over and over until the goat figures out I'll let it stop as long as it is facing me. Once it gets that part figured out I start moving toward it with arms down and talking in a soothing voice. Move in a few feet then back away. Repeat over and over gradually getting closer to the goat each time. You'll learn to tell when the goat is about to turn away so you can stop at that point and move away again. If at any time the goat turns its butt to me or walks away I move in arms waving and make it run again. Over about 40 minutes you can get the goat to stand and let you walk right up to it. It won't like it at first but it knows its better than running around that darn pen for another 20 minutes. I'll hand it a peanut and walk away. Leaving the goat wondering why it was running away from me in the first place. Wait a minute or so then repeat over and over until the goat will stand relaibly. Don't worry about petting and scratching on the goat at this point.

On day two you can get the goat to stand reliably for you in about 15 minutes.

On day three it'll take about 5 -10 minutes. Continue working it every day and in just a few short days you can walk right up to the goat any time. If at any point it starts to walk away simply raise your arms and holler "hey!" and the goat will stop and face you because it isn't about to let you run it around for another 20 minutes. I've found that once I reach this point the goat has learned that I am not going to hurt it and walking away from me is way worse than standing and getting a free peanut and pat on the neck. After that the goat gets better and better about approaching me on its own and looking for a peanut. The goat quickly learns that you aren't going to hurt it and a relationship begins to form.

Two notes: 
1) Always do this in a confined area until the goat is stopping within seconds of you raising your hands. You can't outrun a goat long enough in a large pasture to be effective and the last thing you want is for the goat to win. So once you start this, you need to stick it out until the goat stands for you. If you give up half way through, the goat won and it'll try even harder next time. You want it to learn that it has no choice but to stop for you.

2) Understand that a goat that was not bottle raised may not like you petting and rubbing on it so respect that. I packed a goat for years that was broke this way and he would allow me to catch him, trim his feet, give him medication and he'd carry my pack all day long but he didn't like being petted or rubbed on so I didn't do it.


----------

