# Dappled Coloring



## Lstein

So I've made the decision to start looking for dappled stock to introduce into our herd and was just curious what peoples experiences have been with it, how inheritable is it? 

For example, a dappled buck over traditional colored does. Could one reasonably expect to see a few dappleds from his offspring? 

What if he himself is not dappled, but comes from dappled parent(s)?

Right now I'm mostly shopping for a buck, but am also looking into a doeling. Looking into a few options, having one shipped, breeders within a weekends drive, etc. Nobody near me seems to have any yet, so choices are limited....which is why having one shipped in is another option, just to get some new blood in the area.

Also what have peoples experiences been with shipping? Ground, that is.


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## Jessica84

Oh it’s fun!!! Lol let’s just say that right up front lol.
Ok really it’s a roll of the dice! Everyone believes that the more dapples in the pedigree the more chance, I honestly don’t find this to be 100% true! I have registered goats and as far back as I go there has been dapples on both sides and have ended up with solid colors. I have also had solids one year and fully dappled the next out of the same breeding. I also sold a buck that was out of a traditional and a dapple. He was red with 3 small spots and everything the lady bred to threw spots. I’m sure having more dapples in the pedigree helps but it’s still not going to be a guarantee.
Which is one thing to keep in mind. All you need is a spot to produce spots. It doesn’t have to be totally flashy, this guy honestly was not, I’m not joking about his 3 spots! He had one on his back leg one on his rump and a small on on his shoulder. But it does have to have a spot. Even if 90% of its pedigree is dapples he will not produce spots without it. 
Traditional’s are a pretty dominate color. But if they have paints or solids in them and bred to a dapple that is going to up the chance but again total roll of the dice. You might end up with nothing if they are pretty heavy in traditional color or you might end up with a red head with spots. Basically the spots are going to come up (air might come up) where these is color on the body. Example my one buck has a lot of paint in his background so he does throw a lot of dappled paints. 
Shipping I have done 2 times and it has been great. The one the only bad thing was that I had to meet the person 4 hours away, they were coming from Texas so I basically had to keep that whole day open but it wasn’t the end of the world. Both times it was simply someone hauling something of their own and just kinda picked mine up along the way. I know of (never used) a few haulers that haul all over the USA and I can give you their name if you would like. They are on FB and am FB friends with them but don’t know them personally or how they decide where they end up going. 
Honestly though color is so much fun. Just the not knowing what you’ll get is exciting. When I had just traditional goats I have to admit it was so BORING. With the dapples it’s always exciting even if you don’t get exactly what you want. It’s kinda like Christmas!


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## Lstein

That's kind of what I had thought lol. I'm not expecting all of them to, but would like a couple at least lol! I figure my odds would just get better as more blood gets introduced. It's articles like this one kind of freak me out.


> There have been several spotted bucks in recent years that have brought tremendous figures at sales that failed to prove themselves as consistent spot producers, due to lack of Genetic Representation. Certainly a major let down financially for their new owners and often the reason the original breeder offered them for sale. A quick review of the animals' pedigrees (and progeny reports - in some cases) would have allowed those buyers to make an informed decision regarding the "true value" of the goat as a producer, or potential producer of consistent spots.
> 
> If there are only a few spotted goats in a pedigree the chances for success are minimal at best. If there is one, or no spotted genetics in a pedigree, and the animal is spotted, beware of misrepresentation. A crop-out spotted or dappled is extremely rare. Even if the animal is a legitimate crop-out , that animal will not be a strong spot producer. Crop-outs are never strong color producers.
> 
> We too have tried using spotted bucks that are first, second and even third generation spots, the odds are not impressive. The results are not consistent. We now focus on breeding for consistency, using animals that are prepotent. Prepotency is the ability of an animal to consistently stamp or mark offspring with desirable traits, and is a characteristic necessary to a successful breeding program - spotted or otherwise. A buck touches your entire herd. Your herd sire's influence can make or break your business.
> 
> http://www.maxboergoats.com/dappledandspotted.php


Pretty much all the ones I've been looking at are either, unborn yet, or less than 3-4 months old. So I must admit I'm a little hesitant to pick a herd sire that young, especially since I'm probably going to be paying almost three times as much than ones I've previously purchased. But I guess people do it all the time....and so far all the breeders I've spoken with all seem like honest people and have the goats to prove it.

Are there any names to look for in general? I'm guessing MAX is a good one, from my research. Also have been kind of looking for ones with ennobled in their near background.


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## Lstein

I'm almost wondering if that article is just a marketing ploy for them since, from my website lurking, it seems pretty common for people to get at least a couple dapples out of a spotted/traditional cross.


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## Jessica84

Well my first buck I bough was fully traditional on the dams side and a little over half on the sires side and that sucker produced dapples! So I don’t know how much I really buy into the the “if it’s 100% dapples in the pedigree the better” idea. Now if you have one with a bunch of dapples in the pedigree and one with only half, you like both, both are the same price sure to for the one that is mostly dappled! But I don’t know if I would pay double or give up quality over it. Remember though one side or another there is going to be at least half dapples going on. 
The problem with max is they were pretty much the first on dapples. My first buck had hot dapple $ in him, everything had hot dapple $!!! They do a lot of collecting on bucks and flushing does. I’m not sure how much your looking to spend but sandy ridge boers are by far my favorite on spotted. But he seems to be a lot of people’s favorite lol another favorite of mine is bon joli but again their lazy s-t is popular too. I’m gonna see where you live real fast


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## Jessica84

No I don’t think I know anyone in North Dakota :/


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## Kath G.

I believe dapples follow the same inheritance pattern as moon spots in dairy breeds. If so, it follows a simple dominant/recessive pattern, where spots are dominant (the Punnett square scenario). Thus a goat needs some spots, or even just a single spot, to pass the trait on. I know of a Nigerian breeder who had a doe, who had loud spotted kids though she looked to be a solid color, and was bred to a solid colored buck. When they shaved her for a show they found a single tiny spot hidden under her chest.



Lstein said:


> What if he himself is not dappled, but comes from dappled parent(s)?


If that's the case (where dapples are inherited the same way), it won't matter how much of a goat's pedigree is dapple if that particular goat doesn't have spots... Although it does increase the chance that that goat, if dappled, is homozygous for that trait-- that would mean, also like the situation Jessica mentioned, it wouldn't matter what it was bred with; a homozygous goat will always have all offspring with spots.



Lstein said:


> For example, a dappled buck over traditional colored does. Could one reasonably expect to see a few dappleds from his offspring?


Theoretically a dappled buck over traditional colored does should produce either 50% dappled offspring, or 100%. However, just like inheritance patterns in humans, some goats seem to stamp their likeness on their offspring, while some don't seem to have the same effect.


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## Korita

So since my Ethel girl has spots... does that mean I could possibly get dappled kids out of her?


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## Goat_Scout

@Korita - spots that are surrounded by white like that aren't moonspots or dapples, they are just.... spots I think, lol. Her kids may be colored like she is though!


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## Kath G.

I went on Max Boer Goats' website to look around; from what I can see, dapples are inherited very much the same as moonspots. However, this paragraph doesn't make sense to me, from a genetics background... I'm sure the guy knows his goats, I admit freely I don't know meat goats, but he's got some issues with both his math and his understanding of genetic inheritance...

http://www.maxboergoats.com/dappledandspotted.php accessed 2/2/18 10:50 am

PROBABILITY OF INHERITANCE

"When mating Boer goats, the sire and his ancestors contribute one half (50%) of the inheritance to the offspring, while the dam and her ancestors contribute the other half. The sire and dam contribute one quarter (1/4) each of the offspring's pedigree, the grandparents contribute 1/8 each, and the great grandparents contribute 1/16 of the inheritance."


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## Kath G.

OH WAIT... I think he's using "inheritance" interchangeably with "pedigree"... now that makes better sense, maybe...


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## Korita

Goat_Scout said:


> @Korita - spots that are surrounded by white like that aren't moonspots or dapples, they are just.... spots I think, lol. Her kids may be colored like she is though!


Awe shucks. But I'd be happy with more spots too


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## ALBoerGoats

My buck, Checkers, is out of a black doe with a few spots and by a red paint buck. Oh, and Checker's twin brother was solid red. 
His parents















Him








And this doeling was out of a traditional doe and by a dappled buck. She was a dappled paint while her twin was a traditional with spots on his head


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## Jessica84

What max says makes sense on what they say but not really at the same time. Like what was quoted above about the 3rd and 4th generation dapples. Well yeah they are kinda that or more because you NEED spots to make spots lol so there has been someone in that back ground from the start of time that had at least a spot lol
Let take Kenzie for example on what I mean on roll of the dice. Her first kidding was twins, fully dappled. She is a red paint. Second same breeding, a solid black and two dapples. This time, again same breeding, two reds and a red paint. Another doe that is on her third time breeding the same buck, first was a red a black and a red dapple. Second go 2 reds and 2 black dapples. This time a dapple paint and a red paint. I could write a book for you but I have never gotten 100% the same thing every single time, that’s even to my fully dappled buck and fully dappled doe.
IMO that’s what makes it so fun!


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## Lstein

Very interesting everyone. 

I can't wait to get one, too bad it's going to be another year before I would see any mystery dappled kids though!


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## toth boer goats

I had a dapple buck, his sire was dapple as well.
Dam was paint.

None of my doe's had spotted or dapple genetics what so ever.

Had a few dapple kids.


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## Lstein

So one of the people I've been in contact with, sent me a video of one of his kids(no photos). Here's a screen shot of him, not the best angle but just curious what all think about his spot.

This one isn't one I'm really looking too closely at, though he is on the radar. I thought it would be interesting for sake of discussion.

It's a complete circle on his shoulders. But it doesn't seem like a dapple spot? If that makes any sense?










This is his sire:


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## ALBoerGoats

Not a dapple spot, he might be considered a paint I believe. I had a doe with a spot like that. On her papers she was labeled "correct with spot on back".


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## Lstein

Kind of what I figured, I have a doe that has one like that too; only a bit smaller.


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## Kath G.

He's lovely. I don't think he's what you're after though.

When considering a traditional boer color scheme, think of the white on the body like paint splashed on-- it'll hide whatever is under it, dapples and spots included. When you look at many of @Jessica84's beautiful dapple & white kids, you can see this inheritance pattern at work...

Dapples are spots where there's interference with pigment production, that's why it's heritable independent of color schemes.


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## Lstein

This is the one that's highest on my list, but I've been still on the lookout for more options. I think he's a pretty handsome fella....


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## ALBoerGoats

Beautiful coloring on that boy. Looks like he has good bone. Any better pictures of conformation?


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## Kath G.

Very rarely can dapples present as dark spots on a light background (e.g. a buckskin or cou blanc, which has a light colored modifier on a dark base coat; when you have spots on top of that you can end up with the appearance of darker spots on a lighter background. These can be seriously stunning! They look like ombre coloring). Otherwise, for heritable spots you're looking exclusively at lighter spots.


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## Lstein




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## ALBoerGoats

I like him how old is he in those pictures?


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## Lstein

In that first one, he is around 1-1/2 months I'm assuming. (been looking at him for a couple weeks and that's the same picture). He's a mid December baby.


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## Kath G.

Here's that situation where heritable spots can look dark on lighter background: And in all fairness, those spots have probably turned white/light with age.









That boy is cute! Is that his dam, behind him? I might be concerned about a weak chine. Unless that's a strong point in your existing does.


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## Lstein

A couple of his dam:


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## Goat_Scout

I really like him. His dam is very nice!!


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## toth boer goats

I agree with what has been said.

Nice goaties.


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## wwfarm

Just saw this thread and wanted to chime in with my experience. This little dapple buckling in my avatar is almost 5 now. I call him Geronimo. I actually posted him for sale on this forum several years ago. He is 3/4 Boer and 1/4 Nubian. His mother was a 15/16 red Boer and his father (L.C.) is a white 1/2 Nubian and 1/2 Boer out of a gray dappled purebred Nubian doe (Patches) and a purebred white Boer buck.

I ended up keeping him and bred him for the first time last year. He produced solid reds and patterned browns and reds (not dappled) as well as whites from both solid white Boer does and colored Boers. Yesterday morning a purebred white Boer I bred to him produced a single white buckling.

90% of L.C.'s offspring to a dappled Nubian Doe have been dappled--reds, grays and browns. He has produced two black Nubians with brown markings. 4 out of five of his offspring from breeding him to a solid black Nubian with brown markings have been dappled and one was white.

The vet who gave me L.C. says that he must carry the dapple gene. I remember being told that to produce offspring that are dappled I must breed him to a dark colored doe. Can't remember who told me that though!

This is Geronimo at 18 months. He has filled out at 200 pounds even. Don't have a current picture handy.










This is his offspring born yesterday:


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## Somechicksgoats

Am I the only one that can sit and look at goat pics all day? I love it! Have 2 in the barn (and 10 still outside) right now waiting for them to kid. And have a storm moving in, so it should be soon


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## Lstein

Somechicksgoats said:


> Am I the only one that can sit and look at goat pics all day? I love it! Have 2 in the barn (and 10 still outside) right now waiting for them to kid. And have a storm moving in, so it should be soon


It's what I do to get by, while at work. Though I do have to be careful with all these "waiting" threads, they usually contain certain pictures that look really questionable to the random passerby. lol But, those threads are also where the best kid photos are! The struggle is real.....


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## Somechicksgoats

Lstein said:


> It's what I do to get by, while at work. Though I do have to be careful with all these "waiting" threads, they usually contain certain pictures that look really questionable to the random passerby. lol But, those threads are also where the best kid photos are! The struggle is real.....


That is so funny!! I have gotten that at my office too! "What ARE you looking at!?!" Although I have a big sign at my desk that says "Warning this person may talk about goats at any given moment" so most people just shake their heads and pass right by


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