# aggressive buck-no gun. suggestions?



## TheMixedBag

I picked up a fullblood boer buck last Sunday, figuring I'd give him a month to see if he might work out as a herd sire. He's the twin to the first buckling I butchered back in March, and while he's short bodied and steep through the rump, I knew the meat these guys put on might be worth it.

At least, until he went homicidal maniac on me. Bringing him home, he was quiet and scared, but no signs of aggression. Now he charges the fence and tries to kill anyone who goes near him. He's stressing Magnum and Pickles out (they can't reach each other, but he tries to ram them all the same) and feeding and watering is next to impossible. Needless to say, he made my decision for me.

Trouble is, we still have an ammo shortage around here, leaving us gunless. I had an idea to use a rather heavy wood axe as I'm not sitting through another goat getying its throat slit no matter how much I hate them. But, before we went and did something stupid, I figured I'd ask if there was a better gun free method I could use.


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## Stacykins

Ask a neighbor if they have some ammunition you can buy, a handful of rounds. One bullet to the head will do the job, maybe have two on hand if you want to be extra sure he is dead.

I assume you are in a rural area, where people breathe gunsmoke. At least where I am, it is weird if someone _doesn't_ have a rifle leaning against a wall in their house.


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## ptgoats45

The only gun free method I know of is with a knife. If you do it right, it kills them quickly. I wouldn't try to chop his head off, their bones are so much bigger than a chicken/turkey I don't know how hard it would be to do... Do you have a friend/neighbor who could shoot him for you? 

Just found this video on YouTube on how to humanely kill a goat without a gun. I didn't watch the whole thing, or listen to the sound (my sound doesn't work) but it looks like they stunned him and then cut his throat.

ETA: I'm not going to post the link since it shows a graphic pic.. Search on Youtube: How to Humanely Kill a Goat without a Gun


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Back in the day, people used a sledgehammer to do the trick for bulls, stallion and the likes. If there is absolutely no ammunition where you are, you could rope him, snub him to a tree or post, and do one big blow to the head.

That's all I can come up with if there is no ammo, and you don't want to use a knife.


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## TheMixedBag

Since it was our neighbor's gun we were going to use, a bullet is not an option. I was thinking of pinning him by the neck with a pole (hogtied) and whacking him between the horns with the axe.


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## Jessica84

I don't know if the hitting in the head is going to work. They way you need to shot a goat is in the back of the head because the skull is so thick. I went to a friend of my dads house a few weeks back to help with a sick goat and we got to talking about goats. He had a buck that went crazy and he went to shoot him in the forehead. He said it took like 20 shots. I have this thing about animals not dying fast so I think if I was in your place I would use a knife.


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## ptgoats45

I think you would be better to use a sledge hammer and stun him, then cut his throat like the people did in the video on youtube. In the video they hit the goat on the side of the head (like his temple) and it stunned him instantly. 

Is there a processor near by that you could haul him to? Or perhaps you can have one of them come out a "do the deed" for you?


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## TheMixedBag

They charge way too much for their mobile butchering service, or else I would have called them the day he started acting aggressive. Besides that, they tend to only get the main cuts of meat, and I'm the kind of person who wants every little scrap.

I think the axe may work, it's narrow enough on the blunt end to get between his horns to get to the softer part of the skull. May leave the swinging to someone with better aim while I hold him down, though. Worst comes to worst, there's a ball point hammer that can be used too.


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## SunnydaleBoers

Aiyiyi- the thought of trying to hold a struggling goat down while someone else is swinging an axe in my general direction is not a pleasant one! Seriously man, that sounds like a news story just waiting to happen. 

Stun him first, and then slit his throat- it's your most humane and efficient option at this point, and it's pretty much how every major slaughter plant America does it. The only other option I can think of would be to see if there is a rendering service in your area- they'll charge you a fee to put him down and haul him off, but I don't think it'd be too much. We typically paid $75 for a downer cow, but that was in WI. Still, would probably be easier than trying to explain the ER doc just what exactly you were trying to accomplish.


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## Scottyhorse

I would nooooot use the axe.... Stun him and slit his throat, or borrow a gun.


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## fd123

hey!! HOLD TIGHT!! What kindve ammo do you need??


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## TheMixedBag

.22 or .45. We have both calibers. We do have a bow set to 90lb, though.

I think I got misunderstood. When I said axe, I meant the blunt end (for driving wedges), not the sharp end for decapitation or anything, and I plan on being at the tail end of a 6' t-post before I'd thing of letting anyone swing near me. NOT that brave!


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## fd123

The walmart here in Georgia has always had most high caliber rds in stock, and shotgun ammo through-out the ammo shortages. You need to shoot him in the back of his head at an angle towards his nose area. This usually drops them like a bad habit!.. I probably have whatever you need but how could I legally get it to you? PLEASE DONT CHOP HIM WITH AN AXE....Theres way TOO MUCH room for ERROR attempting to disposef of him that way..Which could end up being VERY IN-HUMANE..You figure a way that I can get some ammo to you legally, and ill give you the ammo you need for FREE!!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

A big sledgehammer (not a little one), and you wouldn't need to worry about stunning. One heavy blow will kill him.

Being a butcher, there are many ways other than a gun, but are most likely to macabre to say.

As for the blunt side of an axe, it would have to be a really heavy blow to stun him.

But if you do get a couple rounds, shoot behind the ear. If you do it with an X from ear to eye across the head, use a low velocity gun, a high velocity and it will ricochet off the skull (has happened before)


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## TheMixedBag

The axe is about 30-40lb, so it ought to be enough to drop him. It's not a small axe by any means. I think I've seen sledgehammers that were smaller lol.

I've seen both behind the ear and the back of the head (he has such a lovely, prominent dimple right at the proper shot placement point), and with the way he acts, I'm pretty sure tying him down and popping him off from the side is likely to work better, at least if I get ammo in time.


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## Baphomet

If you can have him tied, you can put on a latex glove with plenty of lubricant and insert your hand in his rectum while holding a scalpel blade. You cut in a circular motion in an upwards fashion to sever the aorta and he bleeds out into his abdomen. Pretty crazy way to do it though.


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## TheMixedBag

That's the first time I've heard of that method...might kill 2 birds with one stone that way, too.


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## HoosierShadow

Ok, I think the sledge hammer part on a buck might be a bit drastic. I mean, if he is coming at you and you have no choice. Otherwise, no way, sorry, it just sounds wrong and not a good humane way to do it.
I understand you want him gone.

What do you plan to do with him? Butcher him? If not, is it at all possible to do a craigslist ad and see if someone is willing to take care of him in trade for his meat? Or see if you can pay someone a small fee to shoot him? Surely there must be someone in your area with a gun. Maybe see if someone could sell you a few rounds?

I'm in the same boat, if we ever have to put a goat down. We don't own a gun. 

Also, I'm wondering, if you saw a goat's neck slit, if the goat was struggling and in pain, then it wasn't done right.

I've seen my husband's uncle butcher a sheep and some goats, and the animals were slit, and weren't in distress. They just bled out until they fell asleep. The part I feel awful for them on is they don't really understand what is happening to them.
Oh.. for the sheep especially he got it down, and bound the legs so it couldn't go crazy on him, once it was done fighting that, and calm, that's when he did what he had to do.


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## Scottyhorse

Baphomet said:


> If you can have him tied, you can put on a latex glove with plenty of lubricant and insert your hand in his rectum while holding a scalpel blade. You cut in a circular motion in an upwards fashion to sever the aorta and he bleeds out into his abdomen. Pretty crazy way to do it though.


Uuuuhhhhh


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## LamanchaAcres

Scottyhorse said:


> Uuuuhhhhh


^^^ lol


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I believe butchering was her intention, and it would not be a good thing to sell a aggressive buck to somebody else to get the problem off your hands.
Another option, would be to take a scalpel and cut the major arteries until he bled out, or just cleanly cut the throat. If you get him tied up, bind his legs and slit the throat. Once the throat is cut cleanly, as soon as he bleeds out, any "struggling" you see is just the nerves.


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## TDG-Farms

Here is an idea. Why not offer him for sale on Craigslist. Got to be someone out there looking to put some meat in the freezer. Though even if you offered for free and explained why, still someone would come get him pretty quick I would think.


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## TheMixedBag

Yup. He was an "either-or" case. Either he calmed down and filled out in a month or he filled the freezer. His twin was a sweetheart, so why this happened is beyond me. 

I had bullets coming in a month (my friend's .38), hence the wait and see attitude, but his temperament can't be kept around that long. I may let our neighbor come out and do it however he wants, or at least show me a quick way. He might even let me borrow some whiskey, get the poor thing good and drunk first.


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## The-bleating-goat-farm

I'm sorry but reading this thread made my stomach turn, I'll be honest some of the suggestions are very disturbing, so inhuman. I know a lot of people were raised that animals food and and nothing more but come on shoot him in the head don't cut arteries and wait for him to bleed out, that's some crazy shyt. I'm sorry I really shouldn't read everything on here.:shocked:


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## OakHollowRanch

Please wait for some ammo. I understand that he needs to go, but his comfort should be your first priority. No animal should have to suffer like that.  Many of these methods sound completely inhumane.


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## toth boer goats

When swinging that axe, you may not swing hard enough or miss and the poor goat will suffer. I know he is mean but, that may back fire on you.

He needs to be humanly killed. 

Do you have animal control, they may be able to help.


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## erica4481

I looked at the you tube videos of how to kill a goat last night after seeing this thread. All were terrible to me except the one mentioned in the beginning of this thread. It really broke my heart to see how people went about doing it. I am an animal lover and could never kill anything but I understand if he is a problem and must go. If I had to do it I would definitely just get someone to shoot him. That thing about going into its rectum was just cruel sounding .


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## audrey

I am so confused as how there can be NO ammo around! Thats nuts. I would put an ad on CL to buy a bullet from someone, or see if someone would just kick you down one for a little bit of meat or something.


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## Tenacross

I would haul him to the sale barn and put "beware!" on the ticket. Somebody may as well make burger out of him and you get a check. For all the trouble you are going to go through to kill him apparently, it wouldn't be that much more to haul him. You hauled him to your house.


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## mtmom75

Is it legal to mail ammo? I can mail you a few .22 shells, or I might even have some .45, Im not sure.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

There you go, ask animal control if they would do it for you. Just say he is extremely dangerous, and somebody will get hurt if he is not put down.


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## Killer_goat

I would kill him humanely and quickly. If you think he's mean now i would hate to see him if the first blow from an axe didnt do the job. The whole situation just sounds like it could go south in so many ways. In my opinion if you knew he would either settle down and fill out or have to go in the freezer you should have been fully prepared for both scenarios.


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## Axykatt

Is nicking an artery and letting him bleed out really that cruel? When we do it to the chickens it doesn't seem horrific. Lots of blood, but didn't look painful.


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## The-bleating-goat-farm

When you get cut isn't it painful? They feel the same pain we do.


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## Axykatt

Not very.

And a razor cut I can hardly feel at all. It's certainly a lot less painful than an injection, and those aren't inhumane...

Edit: just realized I might sound snarky and don't intend to. I would genuinely prefer a razor cut to an injection, so it doesn't sound cruel to me.


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## TheMixedBag

Called in a favor, the .38 with ammo is on its way. He'll be butchered tomorrow afternoon. If all else fails, the neighbor is coming over with his sledgehammer.


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## WarPony

Axykatt said:


> Not very.
> 
> And a razor cut I can hardly feel at all. It's certainly a lot less painful than an injection, and those aren't inhumane...
> 
> Edit: just realized I might sound snarky and don't intend to. I would genuinely prefer a razor cut to an injection, so it doesn't sound cruel to me.


Right, a properly sharpened knife/razor will cut so fast that all you feel is a pulling sensation for some time. The pain really kicks in later. I almost severed my thumb completely on the lid of a can of store brand ravioli several years ago. I felt nothing more than a rapid tugging sensation, which is how I knew before i saw it that it was BAD. A cut that hurts really bad from the start is usually less severe. I've had paper cuts hurt 100 times worse than my almost-thumb-removal, at least until 4 hours later when i was still waiting in the ER for a doctor to try and put the thing back together. THAN it hurt like a... well, it hurt a lot by then. I still prefer to use a .22 through the back of the head for slaughter, but a PROPERLY DONE throat cutting can be done in such a way that the animal seems to have no knowledge of what just happened before it passes out.


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## WarPony

TheMixedBag said:


> Called in a favor, the .38 with ammo is on its way. He'll be butchered tomorrow afternoon. If all else fails, the neighbor is coming over with his sledgehammer.


Glad you have ammo on the way, sorry you are having to make this decision and struggling to find the required tools.


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## lottsagoats

I lost a finger to a brand new table saw several years ago. No pain at all, didn't even know I did it until my boss freaked out. No pain for close to 20 minutes. I wrapped my hand, put the tools away, locked my car and did a bunch of stuff (with my boss still freaking out) before I even got into the truck to go to the hospital. The pain started as I walked into the ER. A good sharp knife making a small cut to the jugular causes them no pain. Most will continues to graze or eat until they fall asleep from lack of O2.


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## georgiagirl98

Why don't you just sell him? Im not against eating goat or anything they probably taste like deer.  But if hes a full blood boer buck someone would probably love to buy him. Alot of people here don't raise their goats with lots of contact so their goats are crazy too. Maybe the gun will work it seems like the best way to go. What if you shoot him right behind the shoulder in the heart like you would a deer? They drop on the spot.  Make sure to tell us how he tastes ive never ate one before. It's funny when we are trying to bring back a sick or hurt one its so hard, yet when we are trying to kill one its just as hard.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

With the temperment he has it would be dangerous to use him as a buck. Temperament is passed to offspring just like genetics are. Conformation is half the animal, the other half is a sound mind.

Not handling a goat is different, they will just be shy goats. This buck is aggressive, a whole nother can of worms.


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## happybleats

> If you can have him tied, you can put on a latex glove with plenty of lubricant and insert your hand in his rectum while holding a scalpel blade. You cut in a circular motion in an upwards fashion to sever the aorta and he bleeds out into his abdomen. Pretty crazy way to do it though.


Thats horrid!

Im sure if you send out word some one will have a bullet to spare.. Facebook your friends call you vet....some one has a bullet for that guy...that would be the most human method...the ax idea??? thats iffie


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

She has ammo on the way^^


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## toth boer goats

Glad ammo is on the way.


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## TheMixedBag

So am I. As I said, he was supposed to sit for a month, at which point I could have gotten ammo, but I won't tolerate aggression, not when my roommate has a 4yo that never listens and would try to play with him at some point. If it was just adults, I might have tolerated it longer, but I don't want to risk anything happening. For a young goat, he's big and his horns are still stick straight and sharp.


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## Baphomet

Just in case anyone cares, I would never consider killing an animal in the way i described there. But it is a way livestock is euthanatized in the field in emergency situations when there is a suffering animal and no vet or gun anywhere nearby to give an injection. I know it sounds bad, but sometimes it's not worse than being hit by a car and lying there severely injured. I guess it really had no place in this discussion though, sorry.


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## Trickyroo

This whole thread should be taken down IMO.
This is some sick stuff !


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## MsScamp

georgiagirl98 said:


> Why don't you just sell him?


Because it is unethical and wrong to sell an aggressive buck that can hurt or kill someone else without full disclosure of his temperament, and no intelligent human being would ever buy an aggressive buck because he CAN hurt or kill them.


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## TheMixedBag

You're probably right about that. I was hoping it might be a bit educational, and the video on the first page was helpful, but it probably is a bit much. At least I put it in the right place this time...

ETA: Selling him is absolutely NOT going to happen. I refuse to take the chance that he might be bred and I'm certainly not going to be responsible for someone getting hurt.


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## MsScamp

Trickyroo said:


> This whole thread should be taken down IMO.
> This is some sick stuff !


I agree 100%!


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## erica4481

I agree also....I had bad dreams about goat killings last night after reading this thread and looking at a few you tube videos. I just couldn't get it out of my head.


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## MsScamp

Baphomet said:


> I know it sounds bad, but sometimes it's not worse than being hit by a car and lying there severely injured. I guess it really had no place in this discussion though, sorry.


You know, I've been thinking about this all day and I've honestly tried to find a way to justify killing an animal in this method, but I can't. It's cruel, inhumane, and simply wrong on so many levels. Being hit by a car is an accident and extraordinary methods of alleviating suffering are often called for, but to suggest this as a method for killing an otherwise healthy animal when there are a number of alternative ways available to deal with him is inexcusable in my honest opinion.


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## Trickyroo

I never watch those videos cause I know what I can and cannot handle , and those types of videos I cannot stomach .
Excuse me for asking this , but how much do bullets cost ?


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## HoosierShadow

Ok, I really, really think we need a topic or article about, how you can humanely put down a goat if you don't have a gun or vet. 

Honestly, I don't know! I just wouldn't know how to do it. That is the kind of education that would make these posts be good, useful information. 
Sure, none of us want to ever have to do it or deal with it, but in reality, we just have to...it's part of life. If we can't get our animals to a vet, or a vet to us, how can you end an animal's suffering?


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## MsScamp

TheMixedBag said:


> I refuse to take the chance that he might be bred and I'm certainly not going to be responsible for someone getting hurt.


No, you're not going to be responsible for anything because if you were you would have been prepared to handle this situation before it ever arose and was broadcasted across this forum. I am of the firm belief that anyone who chooses to own animals has a responsibility to be prepared to protect those animals and to accept the fact that some of them are going to be aggressive regardless of what he/she does to prevent that from happening. That comes with owning animals whether we like it or not, yet you were not prepared and here you are asking for help and suggestions about how to deal with a situation you should have been able to handle without our help.


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## erica4481

I'm also curious about where there is an ammo shortage? I've just never heard of such unless you live on a deserted island or something. Not trying to to be a smart a** or anything. Just curious


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## MsScamp

There is an ammo shortage in a lot of areas because of all of the new gun laws and the magazine limits. People are stockpiling bullets due to that.


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## erica4481

Oh. That makes sense . I didn't know that. I live in Ga haven't seen any shortages here


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## Springbett Farm

Here in Nebraska, most popular ammo such as .22cal, rifle and pistol ammo is hard to find in stores. As I understand it, most of the Midwest and western states have the same shortage. The call to ban assault rifles started the ball rolling over a year ago when folks started believing all of our guns would be confiscated eventually and began buying up and hoarding ammo. I work at a farm supply store and our warehouse can't get .22s in yet. It's been months since we've stocked them on our shelves.
Can you sell your buck to someone who will butcher him at your house, that way you know he's not going anywhere to become someone's herdsire?


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## .:Linz:.

HoosierShadow said:


> Ok, I really, really think we need a topic or article about, how you can humanely put down a goat if you don't have a gun or vet.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know! I just wouldn't know how to do it. That is the kind of education that would make these posts be good, useful information.
> Sure, none of us want to ever have to do it or deal with it, but in reality, we just have to...it's part of life. If we can't get our animals to a vet, or a vet to us, how can you end an animal's suffering?


Agreed!

If I didn't have a gun, I'd use a knife and do the slit the throat method, I think. That seems to be the only other humane way to do it. But I'd want someone to teach me how before attempting it on my own. Everything I've read says that it takes more strength than one would think because the hide and muscles are tougher than expected.

What about something like carbon monoxide or dioxide poisoning? The animal would go to sleep first so it would be painless. Or perhaps there's some sort of injection that would work the same as euthanizing?

You can order ammo online...


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## HoosierShadow

Ok I wanted to bite my tongue, but decided I'll chime in.

Firstly, anyone and everyone who has read the title of this topic automatically knew what you were getting into. You had a decision. Read and post, or just move on to the next post.

While I decided not to continue reading every post, etc. going by the posters initial post. They said the goat was scared and quiet. I don't recall them saying the goat was aggressive before it was brought onto the property? Unless I missed that?
If that is the case, then the poster is not going to know just how bad this goat is as far as being aggressive.
I know a lot of people that have goats you can't touch them, they act like total nutcases when they are caught, but they are NOT aggressive and don't charge the fence.

Secondly, yes, I've heard of an ammunition shortage, it was earlier this year, but I've heard there are still places being affected. If you google ammunition shortage you will find articles about it.

Thirdly. Not everyone is prepared for ending life. Not even with their pets. Not everyone can afford a vet, or have access to guns. That doesn't mean they are irresponsible owners.

Instead of seemingly insulting the poster, find ways to help, or perhaps just move on to the next topic and bite your tongue <or your fingers lol>.
That's what I typically do when I see something I may not agree with.

Ending life is not pleasant. I am sure this is NOT pleasant for the poster. But the poster feels the animal is going to hurt someone and needs help. 
Then I go back to my first point. We all knew what we were reading when we saw the topic


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## .:Linz:.

Again, I agree with you. 

The original poster shared that her intention was to give the buck a month. At the end of the month, she had some ammo coming should she decided the buck needed to go to freezer camp. It wasn't in the plan for the buck to be agressive and need taken care of sooner than that. She planned for things the best she could, unfortunately things didn't go according to either plan. 

Owning animals automatically puts us in a position where we are responsible for their lives - and that often includes being responsible for ending that life when the time comes. Sometimes it's something we can prepare ourselves for, as in the case of a beloved pet growing old or getting sick and coming to the end of their days. Sometimes it catches us completely off guard - an accident, a bad kidding, or some other emergency. Sometimes, we can make plans for it and sometimes we can't.


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## HoosierShadow

Thanks Linz, you hit the nail on the head with what I was trying to say 

I know if we had an aggressive goat here, I wouldn't know what to do  Especially bucks, some are just so unpredictable. A friend had a really nice, friendly buck she raised. he's like 3- 3 1/2 yr old now <Boer>, and is on a big farm and you have to use a cattle prod or he'll get you. 
Thankfully his kids seem to be friendly, so they don't seem to be inheriting his testosterone lol


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## TheMixedBag

Just felt it needed to be said, in response to not being prepared:

I handle his sire once a month (I trim feet for his breeder). He's very friendly, easy to handle, never even so much as a twitch when I work with him. His dam, while timid and unhandled, has never once acted aggressive. His twin that was butchered in March as a 3 month old was calm, quiet and sweet. Where the aggression came from is unknown. It doesn't matter. As far as I'm concerned, aggression belongs in the freezer, end of story. It would be irresponsible to try and dump him off on someone else, because I cannot control what happens when he leaves my hands.

I know I'm capable of physically handling him. He's kept as far away from us as possible (still within sight of the other two, not fair to isolate him) to prevent kids from wanting to go see him, but the longer he's around, the more chances there are for it to happen.

And yes, we still have a shortage. Wal-Mart has a limit of one box per customer, regardless of caliber and they STILL struggle to stay stocked. They had higher caliber rounds when I checked last Tuesday, but I'm pretty sure a 30-06 is BEYOND overkill and fairly dangerous to fire on a single acre surrounded by homes. 

As for the taste of goat, the last two were very similar in flavor, though since the one from May-June was still nursing, the meat was a bit sweeter. All in all, it tastes like slightly sweet beef. I got several people hooked, hence why I've gone through it so fast. This guy's pushing 7-8 months old and close to 100lb, so we'll see if he tastes different.


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## SunnydaleBoers

TheMixedBag said:


> So am I. As I said, he was supposed to sit for a month, at which point I could have gotten ammo, but I won't tolerate aggression, not when my roommate has a 4yo that never listens and would try to play with him at some point. If it was just adults, I might have tolerated it longer, but I don't want to risk anything happening. For a young goat, he's big and his horns are still stick straight and sharp.


Exactly- there are enough sane, healthy, easy to handle bucks out there that I don't see much point in keeping this one around to terrorize the neighborhood. It sounds like you've had him for a couple of weeks now, which is more than enough time for him to settle in and settle down.

One final thought would be to call around to the vets in your area and see if they're able to come out and put him down. Most large animal vets will still put cattle down with a gunshot- I know you said there is an ammo shortage in your area, but it's possible they would have some on hand (unless of course they're stockpiling for the coming Communist Zombie Apocalypse. You never know.).

You'll probably need to be very specific and let them know you don't have visions of them coming out to put Baby Fluffernut Snookums to sleep while you cradle him in your arms, but that you do have a dangerous animal that needs to be put down. Most goats are small enough that they can still use euthanasia solution as well, but obviously the meat won't be fit to eat after that (I have my doubts that he'll be good for much more than bratwurst as it is, but who knows). **Whoops, should have read to the end of the thread before I posted the first time- he's a lot younger buck than what I was thinking, so should actually be quite tasty!**


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## MsScamp

HoosierShadow said:


> If that is the case, then the poster is not going to know just how bad this goat is as far as being aggressive.
> I know a lot of people that have goats you can't touch them, they act like total nutcases when they are caught, but they are NOT aggressive and don't charge the fence.
> 
> Thirdly. Not everyone is prepared for ending life. Not even with their pets. Not everyone can afford a vet, or have access to guns. That doesn't mean they are irresponsible owners.
> 
> Instead of seemingly insulting the poster, find ways to help, or perhaps just move on to the next topic and bite your tongue <or your fingers lol>.
> That's what I typically do when I see something I may not agree with.
> 
> Ending life is not pleasant. I am sure this is NOT pleasant for the poster. But the poster feels the animal is going to hurt someone and needs help.
> Then I go back to my first point. We all knew what we were reading when we saw the topic


While I understand where you are coming from, I have to disagree with a few points you made. It doesn't matter whether the goat was aggressive prior to being brought on the property or not, it only matters that he became aggressive. I raised a buck that was not the least bit aggressive until I put him in with my does. At that point I could not walk into the pen, or get anywhere near the pen, without him rearing and challenging me. I handled the situation by immediately shipping him with a big red X on his side and he is now curried goat at some prison somewhere. The point is that ANY animal can become aggressive at ANY time for no logical reason at all. Be aware of that fact, accept that fact, and have a plan in place to handle it because it is a risk that any one who chooses to have animals takes.

As far as ending life being unpleasant, I agree with you 100%, but that does not change the fact that if you are going to have animals, you have to be prepared to end their life if and when the circumstances warrant it. I learned the facts of life with animals when I was about 8-10 years old and a calf was born in a blizzard. My younger sister and I named her Little One and we took care of her until it became apparent that her feet had froze and they were going to slough. We tried to talk Dad out of shooting her until he explained what was going to happen to her as her feet sloughed. How about our horse that colicked in the pasture, rolled off an embankment and broke his back? I was about 13 when I found him - still alive - but unable to get up or move. Do you really think I enjoyed having to kill my dog when she impacted on a Sunday night and I discovered my vet never bothered to tell me he didn't do emergency calls because he was semi-retired, and I didn't have the $300-$500 for an emergency visit to another vet? I had the choice of probably watching her rupture between then and Monday morning or putting her down. She was my dog, she was my responsibility, and I did what I had to do to make sure she did not suffer. Do not talk to me about ending life being unpleasant! I have had to put down 3 dogs(impacting, arthritis, and cancer), 1 cat (old age), and 5 goats (polio/listeriosis and CAE) in the last 5 years. If you are going to have them, you have the responsibility of taking care of them and ending their life humanely when it is warranted. That is just the way it is, accept it or leave them where they were.

Perhaps you can point out to me where I insulted the original poster? I simply stated the facts as I see them. Facts are facts, and if someone can't handle those facts then they need to sell their animals to someone who can deal with the realities of life and move on animal free.

I stayed out of this tread for a long time, but it became too much and I couldn't stay out of it any longer. Perhaps that is a weakness in me, I don't know.


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## TheMixedBag

Actually if you had read enough you'd realize the axe IS my "back-up" plan, however, given the reaction to slitting the throat of the first one, I figured a smart move would be to ask and see if there was a better method and/or if anyone had done the sledgehammer method before.

And if that brings up the question of why he's still alive, A) I gave him some time to learn manners. Not happening and B) see above paragraph. If it's so wrong or irresponsible. to double check your backup plans, then I'll gladly lace that shoe up and wear it.

PS-Maybe calling it an axe is freaking some people out, but even if I'm using it as a hammer, it's not a hammer. Can't call a screwdriver a drill.


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## MsScamp

I'll buy that. Perhaps calling it an axe butt would make it a little more clear?


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## TDG-Farms

How do you think all those boar wethers or dairy wethers that get sold for meat get killed? Yep, a long slice across the throat. Most of the people who usually buy them for meat dont have the legal means to own fire arms and/or are more often then not, doing the slaughtering in their back yards. So although its not something I could do myself, I know perfectly well whats going to happen to em. Hell I dont even like it when they tie their feet together but thats just the way it is. Now there were some terrible ideas posted but in the end, death is death. Just glad thing turned out that you will be able to do it quick and God willing, painless.


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## TheMixedBag

GoatCrazy said:


> I'll buy that. Perhaps calling it an axe butt would make it a little more clear?


Perhaps. I did say the blunt end used for driving wedges, but that gets tobe a mouthful (handful?) after a while.


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## WarPony

.:Linz:. said:


> You can order ammo online...


All the ammo I need still keeps coming back as on back order when I try to order it online from the three places we generally use. If you have a source to order from that isn't backordering or claiming out of stock on .22 ammo (specifically hollow point long rifle) could you send it to me in a PM?


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## HoosierShadow

GoatCrazy said:


> While I understand where you are coming from, I have to disagree with a few points you made. It doesn't matter whether the goat was aggressive prior to being brought on the property or not, it only matters that he became aggressive. I raised a buck that was not the least bit aggressive until I put him in with my does. At that point I could not walk into the pen, or get anywhere near the pen, without him rearing and challenging me. I handled the situation by immediately shipping him with a big red X on his side and he is now curried goat at some prison somewhere. The point is that ANY animal can become aggressive at ANY time for no logical reason at all. Be aware of that fact, accept that fact, and have a plan in place to handle it because it is a risk that any one who chooses to have animals takes.
> 
> As far as ending life being unpleasant, I agree with you 100%, but that does not change the fact that if you are going to have animals, you have to be prepared to end their life if and when the circumstances warrant it. I learned the facts of life with animals when I was about 8-10 years old and a calf was born in a blizzard. My younger sister and I named her Little One and we took care of her until it became apparent that her feet had froze and they were going to slough. We tried to talk Dad out of shooting her until he explained what was going to happen to her as her feet sloughed. How about our horse that colicked in the pasture, rolled off an embankment and broke his back? I was about 13 when I found him - still alive - but unable to get up or move. Do you really think I enjoyed having to kill my dog when she impacted on a Sunday night and I discovered my vet never bothered to tell me he didn't do emergency calls because he was semi-retired, and I didn't have the $300-$500 for an emergency visit to another vet? I had the choice of probably watching her rupture between then and Monday morning or putting her down. She was my dog, she was my responsibility, and I did what I had to do to make sure she did not suffer. Do not talk to me about ending life being unpleasant! I have had to put down 3 dogs(impacting, arthritis, and cancer), 1 cat (old age), and 5 goats (polio/listeriosis and CAE) in the last 5 years. If you are going to have them, you have the responsibility of taking care of them and ending their life humanely when it is warranted. That is just the way it is, accept it or leave them where they were.
> 
> Perhaps you can point out to me where I insulted the original poster? I simply stated the facts as I see them. Facts are facts, and if someone can't handle those facts then they need to sell their animals to someone who can deal with the realities of life and move on animal free.
> 
> I stayed out of this tread for a long time, but it became too much and I couldn't stay out of it any longer. Perhaps that is a weakness in me, I don't know.


Firstly, I wanted to point out that no, I never said you specifically were insulting this poster.
But if you must, please go re-read #55.
I'm sorry but it's only your opinion. I really don't think the poster asked for it. The poster was asking for help, not to have opinions on being a responsible or irresponsible owner. 
I think the poster has made it clear that they want help, not criticism.

You do things your way, someone else does it their way. Just because someone may not have it all figured out like you do, doesn't mean they are irresponsible.

I absolutely refuse to own a gun. I have good reason. Does that mean we shouldn't have animals ?
How many members on this forum got their first goats and said 'Ok so if you become aggressive, what do I do with you?"
Of course not. I am sure for many that is the last thing on their minds.
Doesn't mean your a good or bad owner.

Obviously, the poster must have had a bad experience with slitting the neck to not want to go that route.
It's not always easy to get through that hide and can be very unpleasant.

You've had your experiences, everyone else has had their experiences. You absolutely can not predict something will happen, even the most prepared people are unprepared.
Trust me, I've had my experiences too, but I won't share them here, just not the place for it, and this is a tough situation as it is, nobody wants to read more bad stuff.

There is a great saying.... 'If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.'

That stops drama and hurt feelings and that keeps forums and groups healthy.

So with that I just won't reply to this anymore. But I will be checking in to see if the poster is able to do what she has to do.


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## .:Linz:.

WarPony said:


> All the ammo I need still keeps coming back as on back order when I try to order it online from the three places we generally use. If you have a source to order from that isn't backordering or claiming out of stock on .22 ammo (specifically hollow point long rifle) could you send it to me in a PM?


Sorry, I don't. We're able to get ammo at the gun shops around here still.


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## Baphomet

Just in case anyone cares, I do my goats with a captive bolt device. No gun necessary. This is how the commercial packing industry does it. It stuns just like a gunshot but where I keep my animals we can't fire a gun. You can buy a cheap one for about $300. 

You guys really got the rectal approach to the aorta and bleed out thing all wrong. It's no worse than a jugular cut and a lot easier. Oh well


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## ptgoats45

In Oklahoma, they had it on the news that the police were doing almost all of their target practice with .22's hence why there is a shortage on the smaller calibers in Oklahoma, the needs of law enforcement comes first. We did ask at Orscheln's one time if they ever got in .22 shells, the cashier said they do, sometimes, but it will barely last 5 minutes on the shelf. I haven't been to Bass Pro recently to see if they have any or not.

To the poster, I know you have ammo on the way, but are there going to be any gun/consignment sales near you soon? They have them all over in my area and usually sell shells (and guns), they are higher priced, but it seems to be the only way to get them.


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## Trickyroo

Last time I checked it was 2013 folks .
We are all communicating here on the INTERNET !!!!!!!!!
IMO Internet , cable , phones , iPhones , iPads , laptops and all the rest of the gadgets people have nowadays that don't come cheap and yet there is talk about not being able to afford certain things is just bull bubbles !!! Humans as we know them in 2013 don't walk around with clubs dragging their knuckles on the ground , at least here they don't , that I know of anyway. 
Give me a freakin break anybody can't get hold of a bullet to put a animal down !!!!
Great thread ,, " how many ways can one think of to kill a goat '
What in the world has happened to this place ??
Good reason not to come back here !
Just saying


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## HerdQueen

Trickyroo said:


> Last time I checked it was 2013 folks .
> We are all communicating here on the INTERNET !!!!!!!!!
> IMO Internet , cable , phones , iPhones , iPads , laptops and all the rest of the gadgets people have nowadays that don't come cheap and yet there is talk about not being able to afford certain things is just bull bubbles !!! Humans as we know them in 2013 don't walk around with clubs dragging their knuckles on the ground , at least here they don't , that I know of anyway.
> Give me a freakin break anybody can't get hold of a bullet to put a animal down !!!!
> Great thread ,, " how many ways can one think of to kill a goat '
> What in the world has happened to this place ??
> Good reason not to come back here !
> Just saying


Laura deep breath in, breath out, one more time in... and let it out. I seem to remember the last time the original poster put on a thread about butchering their goat it got a lot of people wound right up. I don't know if you had the "pleasure" of reading about it, but it was grusome. I think they are trying to avoid another brutal death of their animal. Although I don't know how much less of a brutal killing whacking an animal in the head with a blunt object is or cramming your hand up a rectum to slice internally is either. I will say there is a national ammo shortage in the US.

I know it is very tough for some of us to read, as we love our animals as an extention of ourselves. But the same does not hold true for everyone. Sometimes to some people they are just animals and nothing more then that.


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## KasKiRanch

I have been reading this thread since it started and want to commend HoosierShadow and Linz...you keeping bringing the correct points around that his is NOT a place to attack people because you disagree with what they are saying (whether it was intended or not some response commends are a little attacking the way they are worded). This thread was started for advice,and some people are bringing in a little more of their personal"Emotions" than really need to be necessary.

 The original poster is being straight forward wanting help, opinions on how to help the situation. I will point out one very large FACT...I don ot own a gun....Why do you ask? 

 I have a 4 year old and a 6 year old and guns will not be allowed in my house until I have a Safe to put them in. So if someone doesn't have a vet on hand, (Many don't depending on location), and someone doesn't have a gun...or someone close with a gun (depending on location) what do we do to take care of an aggressive animal? THAT my friends are what this current thread is asking...it is asking for help; people's experiences of how to"Humanely" put down an animal with the tools you have available. 

*Lets stay on topic* and not get so offended because we may DISAGREE on someone's input...it doesn't mean it has to be used...doesn't mean we have to "LIKE", you can just ignore it and put in your method if you have a better option.


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## HerdQueen

Personally if I no had to access to a gun/ammo, but I did have it to a bow and broadheads that would be my choice! Since you do have the bow it tells me you know where to put the arrow for a clean kill.


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## Baphomet

GoatCrazy said:


> You know, I've been thinking about this all day and I've honestly tried to find a way to justify killing an animal in this method, but I can't. It's cruel, inhumane, and simply wrong on so many levels. Being hit by a car is an accident and extraordinary methods of alleviating suffering are often called for, but to suggest this as a method for killing an otherwise healthy animal when there are a number of alternative ways available to deal with him is inexcusable in my honest opinion.


I've thought about it and you're absolutely right. To be honest, I lost touch with the original intent on the thread. I should not have given this response to a lay person looking for a way to euthanize a healthy animal. I was tired and just putzing around on a forum, not thinking that someone might try this that didn't understand this method. It was inappropriate.

I stand by the method though. Not as good as a bullet or stunning, but in the right hands, it can be perfectly humane and a blessed relief to a poor suffering animal. Much less traumatic than cutting the internal carotid artery or a blunt blow to the head. A moment of discomfort and then A very fast bleed out. I realize it has caught many of you off guard, but vets do it and it is taught in veterinary school.


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## TheMixedBag

Baphomet said:


> I've thought about it and you're absolutely right. To be honest, I lost touch with the original intent on the thread. I should not have given this response to a lay person looking for a way to euthanize a healthy animal. I was tired and just putzing around on a forum, not thinking that someone might try this that didn't understand this method. It was inappropriate.
> 
> I stand by the method though. Not as good as a bullet or stunning, but in the right hands, it can be perfectly humane and a blessed relief to a poor suffering animal. Much less traumatic than cutting the internal carotid artery or a blunt blow to the head. A moment of discomfort and then A very fast bleed out. I realize it has caught many of you off guard, but vets do it and it is taught in veterinary school.


I've never actually heard of this method, but it does make sense. Not something I'm willing to try, but only because I haven't got a good enough blade nor anatomical 
knowledge to doit properly.

In case anyone doesn't remember, the last of the "goat" ammo was used on Toki. Since then it's been a struggle to locate it AND beat someone to buying it. I got lucky that a friend has a gun and 3 spare bullets. I'm even luckier that the neighbor knows how to put an animal down quickly AND can mix a little paste of sorts up to numb him out (didn't even think of snakeroot until last night). Not everyone can be so lucky.


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## toth boer goats

We need to take a breath here. It is always a difficult Topic and discussion on killing an animal. Heart breaking no matter the reason.

What is right for one, may not be right for another. This Discussion has gone way out of line by some and with others, it is a blessing you are here to calm things, thank you.

There is in fact, a bullet shortage out there. When stores get them in, they are sold that day. Which makes things hard for some in situations such as this. 
Remember, animal control is there for emergenciy situations. You may also ask an officer to help, if the animal is aggressive and going to harm another.

The Poster has bullets on the way and is handling it responsibly. So morbid killing methods, bashing and uncalled for antics need to seize.

Keep it friendly, keep it fun


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## Trickyroo

Thanks again Frank !

MixedBag , Im sorry if I offended you. I know this is not what you intended happen. Just sort of went that way.
I had no knowledge of the bullet shortage. 
And , having vets all around , small animal vets , a sprinkling of large animal vets here I knew no other way of putting a animal out of its misery except for shooting it if needed.
i cant imagine not having these options either.
I hope and pray you never have to do any the ones mentioned !
Again , I apologize.


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## TheMixedBag

I'm not offended in the least, don't worry. It takes a lot to get me riled up, and the internet just doesn't do it.

Hopefully around 3-4pm today (central) he'll be in the freezer It's cool and rainy, so if we don't get the gun today, it's not happening today. I've got snakeroot mixed up in case we have to knock him out, but I'm not taking the risk if it's going to be muddy.


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## Trickyroo

I know I let me emotions take over there guys. But it just hurt reading some of the posts. It hurt real bad. Im not one for letting a animal suffer. In fact , sometimes I feel like it isnt done quick enough for my liking. Just another day in the life of a animal lover I guess.


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## .:Linz:.

Okay, so let's put our heads together and think - _is_ there a humane way to dispatch a goat that's simple enough for anyone to do if they don't have a gun, can't find a friend or neighbor with a gun to help them, don't feel comfortable slitting the throat as a means of death, and can't have a vet do it?

I like the bow and broadheads suggestion. That would be a relatively safe option for those who can't or don't want to own a gun, and as long as you can get some practice in so you're confident enough you'll get a clean quick kill I don't see why it wouldn't work, though it won't be quite as fast as death by gun and there is a bit more room for error that way.

I also know that if you accidentally inject Penicillin in the vein, that can kill the goat almost instantly. Of course, that way you wouldn't be able to use the meat, but it might be an option for an injured or very sick animal that you just want to end it's suffering.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Well a bow will not drop an animal and kill it quickly. A bows arrow is shot to the heart, and they will slowly die from slowly bleeding out until you cut the throat. Bow hunting is more for sport.
A deer shot to the heart will be able to run for quite a ways before going down from blood loss.


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## .:Linz:.

Admittedly, I have no actual experience with bowhunting, but it is something I've done reading about and am interested in, as I think it would be a good skill to have... many people say that death from a double lung shot is quite quick, though not as quick as a bullet. In this situation, you'd have a closer range than when deer hunting, too... an accurately-placed broadhead from a 90lb bow at close range should be pretty effective, shouldn't it?


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## Baphomet

Intravenous penicillin would be very painful as it causes thrombosis (clots) and anaphylaxis (allergic reaction). Again, look into the captive bolt method. Very quick, very humane.


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## Baphomet

http://www.qcsupply.com/140760-blit...m_medium=cpc&gclid=CJ_y9p65-7gCFaY-MgodSFwAcw

To my knowledge there is no shortage of cartridges.


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## Trickyroo

Thank you thank you thank you Baphomet !


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## .:Linz:.

Baphomet said:


> Intravenous penicillin would be very painful as it causes thrombosis (clots) and anaphylaxis (allergic reaction). Again, look into the captive bolt method. Very quick, very humane.


Thanks, I didn't know that. Everything just says "don't get Pro Pen G in the vein because that causes almost instant death."

EDIT: I just remembered this:

*"Homeopathic for animals RE: Death/life *

There are some situations where we have an animal that is in dire straits, they are on the cusp of life and death. Arsenicum Album 30c is the homeopathic remedy for pets that seem "stuck", not sure if they want to stay on this Earth or go on. It will help them pass or they will get better and remain with us."


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## ptgoats45

I would say stunning them and then cutting the throat would be the quickest method. The only problem with using a bow is you do have to practice to be able to actually draw the bow. Most avid bow hunters practice all year, one good way is with weights attached to a rope that they pull up over a pole so their arm muscles are accustomed to being used in that way. We have a bow that is set at I think 65lbs, I can lift 65 lbs, but can I pull 65 lbs.... evidently not lol. I can't hardly get that bow pulled back a few inches. lol Even my step dad has to really stuggle to get it pulled back. I never imagined it was that hard to draw a bow, but it is lol.

There is an antibiotic for cattle that will drop a horse with just one prick of the needle. It will also kill a person just as quick, so obviously no one would be able to get any from their vet. I believe it causes cardiac arrest.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I think if you physically or mentally cannot put the animal down, or you don't have the right thing for the job, you should have someone else do it. 

The more that people use injectables to take place of a lethal injection the more antibiotics, antihistamines, barbiturates,hormones, etc will be taken off the market and Rx only. Just like the drug addicts got epinephrine taken off the market and many other products. Certain fly wipe is illegal in certain states for crying out loud.


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## georgiagirl98

georgiagirl98 said:


> Why don't you just sell him? Im not against eating goat or anything they probably taste like deer.  But if hes a full blood boer buck someone would probably love to buy him. Alot of people here don't raise their goats with lots of contact so their goats are crazy too. Maybe the gun will work it seems like the best way to go. What if you shoot him right behind the shoulder in the heart like you would a deer? They drop on the spot.  Make sure to tell us how he tastes ive never ate one before. It's funny when we are trying to bring back a sick or hurt one its so hard, yet when we are trying to kill one its just as hard.


Wow this thread has taught me alot. Some good things some not so very good haha. I guess thats why my dad makes me bring my Rottweiler in the field whenever i go in there. If they start to fight with each other and they are too close for his liking, he can break them up pretty fast. He's pretty protective and he won't usually let them get close when he is out there. I guess that will be good when my little boer buck gets grown, ive never kept a buck and the biggest goat i have now is only a big doe. I have always heard people say grown bucks are unpredictable and not to trust them but i didnt think they would be that bad or much different than a wether ( guess the extra parts changes that though  ). I hope it goes easy and you won't have to go through too much to get rid of him, maybe everything will work right.


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## TheMixedBag

My kiko buck Magnum is the sweetest thing on the planet (aside from a bad habit of jumping up for attention, which has led to some pretty uh, "painful" moments for my friend). I have warned everyone that come rut, be far more careful as he's a coming 2 year old and I've no idea how he is in rut. I'm more concerned that he'll just be far more excitable and less likely to pay attention to his already massive horns rather than him being unpredictable and unruly. I've never had a goat that was flat out aggressive before, buck or otherwise. I'm not sure that it's genetics, it seems more likely that it's hormones, and no amount of standard discipline stops it (spray bottle, nose thunk-at least in his case-, flipping, etc.). He sees everything as a threat and wants to smash it.

He did NOT go to freezer camp today. The gun is still forthcoming and the rain left everything too muddy to even think about trying to stun him.


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## TDG-Farms

*What some call the great American ammo shortage *is a head-scratcher even for experts, so far defying economic laws of supply and demand. Three causes are generally cited, though it's difficult to tell precisely how much each is to blame. First is panic buying among the gun-loving public, something that's been seen before. Second is a staid industry that, having not anticipated a demand surge, does not have a big enough supply of black powder and primer to quickly and significantly boost production to meet the demand surge. Third, and most controversially, is suspicion in some quarters that the federal government itself has deliberately placed a huge order for ammunition in order to drain the supply and cause bullet prices to jump for private buyers.


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## WarPony

TDG-Farms said:


> *What some call the great American ammo shortage *is a head-scratcher even for experts, so far defying economic laws of supply and demand. Three causes are generally cited, though it's difficult to tell precisely how much each is to blame. First is panic buying among the gun-loving public, something that's been seen before. Second is a staid industry that, having not anticipated a demand surge, does not have a big enough supply of black powder and primer to quickly and significantly boost production to meet the demand surge. Third, and most controversially, is suspicion in some quarters that the federal government itself has deliberately placed a huge order for ammunition in order to drain the supply and cause bullet prices to jump for private buyers.


I foolishly thought I was immune because many of my fire arms are muzzle loaders (my husband and I are actively involved in pre-1840 fur trade era living history and blackpowder shooting. This is similar to the Civil War reenactors, but from an earlier time period and without staged battles). I figured push comes to shove we can use some powder and use the projectiles we pour ourselves. But it is getting hard to even find powder. Our annual Rendezvous at our club was last weekend and a lot of people were commenting on that.


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## ogfabby

Ammo is finally getting easier to find here. 

My opinion though, if you can't put him down yourself, send him to the sale barn for a meat buyer to slaughter.


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## SunnydaleBoers

TheMixedBag said:


> My kiko buck Magnum is the sweetest thing on the planet (aside from a bad habit of jumping up for attention, which has led to some pretty uh, "painful" moments for my friend). I have warned everyone that come rut, be far more careful as he's a coming 2 year old and I've no idea how he is in rut. I'm more concerned that he'll just be far more excitable and less likely to pay attention to his already massive horns rather than him being unpredictable and unruly. I've never had a goat that was flat out aggressive before, buck or otherwise. I'm not sure that it's genetics, it seems more likely that it's hormones, and no amount of standard discipline stops it (spray bottle, nose thunk-at least in his case-, flipping, etc.). He sees everything as a threat and wants to smash it.
> 
> He did NOT go to freezer camp today. The gun is still forthcoming and the rain left everything too muddy to even think about trying to stun him.


Freezer camp, that term always cracks me up.

Just out of curiosity, have you tried putting a doe or two in with him, or even your other buck?


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