# Holistic Section



## Robin (Oct 12, 2007)

Hi, I'm new to goats, but do holistic methods when treating all my animals.
I would like to suggest a section for us die hard (no pesticide, organic, holistic method...people) 

Just a thought. I know their is a few of us out there and we would love to share what works with the holistic treatments...

Robin


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ok I moved this and deleted the replies that were agreeing with the idea. I figured since Robin suggested it she should get to be the one who "starts" it. 

Now go right ahead and ask your holistic goat raising questions and add the suggestions and ideas for our members here from those of you who do use these methods.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm here to help! We've been doing it naturally from the start and we have had great success. If you have any questions, just ask!


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## sunshineandtulip (Nov 6, 2007)

What do you use for grain to get organic?? I mean I dont think you can buy organic grain around here. So what do you do???


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

correct me if I am wrong but organic is not the same as holistic. Though probably anyone doing holistic medicine with their animals would try to do things as organic as possible.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok, pardon me here, as I am very anti organic(I know, oxy moron) But we try to do things natural. Natural and organic are 2 different things believe it or not.
Organic, whether its with crops or animals, means you can't use any chemicals, anti biotics, medications etc etc. Everything has to be certifed organic that you feed your animals from feed to minerals and hay. If your animal is in a situation where they are in a life or death situation and require anti biotics you can give them antibiotics, but its a last resort, then after giving them the anti biotics they have to be sold when they recover. There are many other things and its not worth it imo.
We prefer natural because when we need to we still have the option of doing things conventionally if our goats are sick. We do things natural and market them as natural and we have no problems selling to our customers.
We are farmers, we farm quite a bit of land and we do it all conventionally. The practices with our farming and the practices with our animals do not cross. We are conventional when it comes to our farming, we spray chemicals, we plant GMO crops, we are constantly getting bashed by organic people. They just don't get it. They think we can just snap our fingers and change our ways. Yeah, right. I still don't get why they don't allow fertilizer(ie lime, potash, etc) it comes from the ground and its not processed. And GMO(genetically modified organism) because of that, we are actually spraying less chemicals on our crops than we were before.
We rent all of our land and it takes a minimum of 5 years for transitioning to even consider the land to be organic. 5 years, if we were to lose that land all of our efforts would be lost. We can't stand for crop loss either with the organic grains. The list goes on and on.
I am very opinionated on this subject and I could go on and on and on........
Anyway, for grain, oats, barley and wheat are most commonly used as covercrops for hay. That means that they are not commonly sprayed, and if they are sprayed, it is before the plant has a head and it does not affect the grain(ie residue) same with BOSS, it's not a cover crop but they don't spray it for anything. With corn, we don't like to feed GMO corn to our animals. We will our chickens if that's all we have(in fact, our chickens grew better on GMO corn, can't figure that one out) but we will never feed GMO corn to our goats. If you feed corn to your goats and care about being natural, look for corn that is non-GMO or organic.


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## sunshineandtulip (Nov 6, 2007)

I dont feed corn to my goats but the little bit that is mixed n their grain.. I was just questioning the organic because it was mentioned in the first post... I was curious on how to feed them organically. I only have goats for our milk and meat and sell some of the kids. I just have a small farm. Goats and chickens the main focus... I like to add as much as I can that is more natural. Holistic means you use both isnt that right or is that homepathic? I cant remember at the moment.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Homeopathy is a type of medicine, I don't know what holistic is, I rhink it is another word for natural but I'm not sure.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I like organic. And I HATE GMO....... but that's just me :wink:


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Well that is understandable and you are entitled to your opinion. But you are more than likely looking at GMO from a consumers point of view.  Personally, from a consumers point of view, I do not think that GMO is the greatest thing as far as food goes. But, you also have to see it from a producer's point of view(which is what I don't like about the organic people that bash us, they don't see OUR view)
Because of GMO crops, you have no idea how much we have saved as far as chemicals, fuel, cost per acre, etc go. Because of GMO crops, we are spraying less chemicals and burning less fuel than we were before. Also, before we used GMO crops, we had to spray this stuff called feridan(sp?) and after you sprayed it, all the birds in the area would die or get sick and we couldn't let our dogs go out in the field. You cannot believe how much less chemicals we are spraying because of them. Non GMO crops require spraying often.
I would also like to mention that another reason why we aren't organic is because we have been to several 'organic' farms, none of them were certified but they all fed certified grain and did all the organic practices etc. I have never seen animals in such poor health in my entire life. They were dingy, scruffy, skinny, wormy etc. I've seen cows at 2000 head dairies that were happier than those animals! How do you know they are content? They chew their cud.
Now, you can do organic correctly, but most often the only time I've seen organic done correctly is if the people doing it were farmers(like us) to begin with and understood the jist of it.
That's just my opinion.


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## Sara (Oct 5, 2007)

Um Holistic means that you are taking care of the whole system, making sure the immune system is strong so it can take care of any illness that you can't catch. I think. I could be wrong though.


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## sunshineandtulip (Nov 6, 2007)

Yep that covers Holisitc!! I went back and looked it up!!


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

We try to do things as naturally as possible.

one of the thins we use Molly's Herbal Wormer - from Fias Co Farm. (I know.... it's not holistic)


Oh I know I AM looking at it with a consumers point of view..... because I am not a farmer, if I was I'm sure I would think differently :wink:


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Homeopathy as a medicine treats as a whole, rather than treating a specific symptom.


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## sixshooterfarm (Oct 18, 2007)

We have been doig the all natural thing for a while. Ok let me explain it this way, on how we do it, and you all are probably gonna laugh. We have been doing all natural homeopathic wormer. I mix my own and I know exactly where the materials come from , my sister works at the local health food store. I make my own batch and we now are actually offering it for sale. We feed as little grain as possible....we do this because we feel that the stronger the goat the better, and as cruel as it sounds we like the strong to survive and weed out the real hard keepers. Now for the does in milk....we do what we need to to make them happy and healthy. We give antibiotics when we have to, life or death. I had a question a few weeks ago about a cold running through the herd, and wether or not I should give the ones with real snotty nasty noses some antibiotics. We try to make the whole goat healthy and happy ( holistic) I just think so strongly that let the body fight for itself, and the wormer does that, allow the body to boost its own immune system and naturally fight those worms. And ever since we have gone to the natural wormer...I dont think my herd as EVER looked this good! just my opinion


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I love the Herbal wormer, and I'de like to start doing our own fecal tests in the Spring. I really hate using antibiotics of any kind, unless I HAVE to.


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## sixshooterfarm (Oct 18, 2007)

Hey there muddy creek! Wanna buy some of it off me lol :shock: Mollys herbals are just a bunch of herbs thrown in a bag right ( I am totally not saying that in a bad way!) Mine are very very easy to administer. My herbal wormer is ground up and made into a powder, so all you have to do is #1 add some water and drench them. #2 mix into their grain and they cannot pick through it #3. put it into empty capsules ( which I can make capsules for you) #4 any way your heart desires!! let me know and tell everyone you know!!


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

What's in your herbal wormer? I like something that you can drench them with since they don't always eat it :roll:


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

Hello all!
I am new to this board and first - Thanks, Stacey, for inviting me! I had intended to just lurk and absorb for a while, but this particular thread caught my attention.
We raise our Kiko herd naturally, including worming. 
Everyone has their own way of doing things, and as I always say, there are wrong ways of doing things, but no ONE right way! It all depends on your herd, your goals, your environment, etc. So I am in no way advocating "my way," but did want to share how we handle this particular issue, in the hopes that it might appeal to some, or at least give a different perspective.
First, we worm only as needed, and use FAMACHA scoring to determine who needs worming. For individual worming, I have a tincture I made up from a combo of herbs that is used if only one or two goats are in need. For general worming of the whole herd or a large group, a combo of herbs is generally added to their water supply through a moon cycle, and sometimes also added to grain through the same cycle. This combo is not always the same and is also given AS NEEDED. Just like chemical wormers, a resistance CAN be built up to herbal wormers and is why we don't give these all the time. Goats will eat these herbs if they are needed. Just as in the wild, the goat will pick what its body needs at any given time and will browse from plant to plant to acquire what its body is in need of.
What herbs I can't grow on my own in my herb garden are purchased in bulk. (And you may be surprised just what common plants ARE natural wormers!) There is no need to do anything to them except put them out for the goats. If I had enough land, I would have a large plot of herbs that the goats would be allowed to forage in from time to time so they could "pick and choose" which they wanted/needed.
I know a lot of people (and I was one when I first decided to take the "natural" path with my animals) who automatically think it is more expensive and/or complicated, but we have found neither of those to be true and it has turned out to be cheaper and easier than the "conventional" method, for us.
Having said that, it does not mean that if a natural method is not working for any given problem and it's a matter of the animal's life or health, we don't use any of the conventional or chemical methods. There's no point in touting our "natural" herd if they've all died!


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

FYI - Here is a very good explanation of "homeopathic" taken from Dr. Waltz's natural goat production page on her web site, in case anyone would like to better understand what "homeopathic" means:
" Let's start with natural wormers. There are some commercial products out there on the market, but I do not use them. Most are listed as "homeopathic" wormers, and as I mentioned in the morning session, that is a bit different than you may think. Homeopathic remedies are not "home remedies" and are made from the "essence" of something. So, for example, if one was making a homeopathic remedy for a roundworm, you would take a roundworm, soak it in the liquid being used, also called "menstrum", shake that mixture several times a day, remove the roundworm, add liquid, shake several times a day, and do that for many days until what is left is a liquid that has the essence of the roundworm. This is called a "succussion". If it is a remedy for an illness, cells from an animal with that infection, whether it be skin scrapings or mucous or whatever depending on the ailment, would be prepared in the same manner. While homeopathy can be very effective in many instances, I am not convinced as a professional in the field of natural medicine that this would be a most effective way of worming a goat. Parasites of the same type vary from location to location, whether it be size or whatever, and so to be truly effective for your herd the succussion would have to be made from parasites that are from your specific herd in your specific location. This is not something easily undertaken by a beginner without training in homeopathy and making homeopathic remedies. Homeopathic remedies are, however, very good for replacements for vaccines and for prevention of certain diseases in livestock.
Instead I use plant medicines, as they are readily available, and many can be grown in your own fields for free choice use. What can't be grown in your area is easy to purchase from many available sources in bulk, which reduces costs and keeps plenty on hand for use as needed."


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

thanks for posting this - it would be helpful to have a listing of the plants and herbs and what their natural function for the goat would be. 

If you don't have it is there somewhere one could research this?


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

*Post correction*

Geez..........I should proof read before I post. The following statement: "Having said that, it does not mean that if a natural method is not working for any given problem and it's a matter of the animal's life or health, we don't use any of the conventional or chemical methods." SHOULD READ: Having said that, it does not mean that if a natural method is not working for any given problem and it's a matter of the animal's life or health, we don't HESITATE TO use any of the conventional or chemical methods"
Or maybe it was right the FIRST time, now that I reread it!  
Any way ....what I mean is we will use other things than natural, if the situation warrants it!
Phew!


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

*Herbal list*

I was given permission by Dr. Waltz to share the following, which is a hand out she gave out when she spoke at a goat conference in Canada this fall:

Basic Herbs for Goats

*Anthelmintic/vermifugal Herbs*
Basil
Black Walnut
Calendula
Cinnamon
Fennel 
Garlic
Horseradish 
Neem
Pumpkin Seed
Quassia
Sorrel
Tansy
Wild Mustard
Wormwood (most Artemesias)

*Antibiotic/Antiviral Herbs*
Basil
Calendula
Cinnamon
Echinacea
Elder
Garlic
Myrrh
Neem
Olive Leaf
Pau dâ€™ arco
Tea Tree (eucalyptus)

*Anti-diarrheal Herbs*
Blackberry leaf
Calendula
Catnip
Chickweed
Fennel
Garlic
Ginger
Mullein
Nettle
Psyllium
Slippery Elm
Yellow Dock

*Milk Increasing Herbs*
Dill 
Fennel
Fenugreek
Nettles
Milk Thistle
Red Raspberry

*Milk Decreasing Herbs*
Sage

*Pain Relief/Fever Reducing Herbs*
Meadowsweet
White Willow
Yarrow

*Cough Herbs*
Chickweed
Horehound
Hyssop 
Licorice
Mullein
Myrrh
Peppermint
Tea Tree

*Calming Herbs*
Chamomile
Hops
Lavender
Lemon Balm
Peppermint
Skullcap
Valerian

*Chelating Herbs*
Cilantro
Cleavers

This information is not meant to replace the advice of your professional; please make proper consultations before use of any medicinal herbs. There are obviously many more medicinal herbs that could be used, and all of these herbs have many more uses than what is listed here; this is merely a simple reference list for getting started with natural healing for goats.

The herbs listed here were chosen to be safe for pregnant does and for kids when the dosages are not excessive. Neem should be used in very small amounts (preferably not at all) for bucks during breeding season as it can and will cut sperm production to very low numbers, creating infertility â€" it is not a permanent lowering and sperm production returns to normal when neem leaves the body.

For more information on medicinal herbs please visit my web site at http://www.naturalark.com which includes information on how to obtain my book â€œThe Herbal Encyclopedia â€" A Practical Guide to the Many Uses of Herbsâ€; or visit a local herbal expert for personal guidance.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I missed your post Sixshooter  I will buy some from you when I get low ( I have a TON) right now. Yeah Molly's herbs are thrown into the bag lol


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

what herbs are good for worming, and pregnancy?


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

Pregnancy - nettle and raspberry, starting in last month of term. Worming - there are many. I think I posted a list on here somewhere - will see if I can locate.


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

Silly me!! The list is right above this post!! Worming herbs are the "Anthelmintic/vermifugal Herbs" ones.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

also, i heard that pine boughs are really bad, and can cause abortion, any experience / knowledge on this? --thanks Aeginaea


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

I personally would not hesitate to use them, as cattle are affected by them (aborting) but studies have not shown that to be true for goats - but when in doubt, use something else. There are enough choices out there that if you have any concerns at all, use something else.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Pine is high in vitamin C and is really good for goats. Studies have shown it is the needles of the ponderosa pine and the yellow pine that will cause abortions. All other trees are perfectly safe.

When it comes to herbal worming, this is just my personal preference, I like to buy herbal wormers from herbalists who have experience with mixing and combining herbs, their powers, side affects etc. Unlike homeopathy, herbs can sometimes be a lot more tricky and wrong amounts of something or wrong doses and be harmful to us and our animals.


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

I agree totally with goathappy - I am fortunate that I have the advice of a highly trained herbalist who has raised all natural goats and horses for 19 years. For me, the homeopathy is much more confusing, but that is just me and I am easily confused!


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Homeopathy is confusing, at first, but after you study it, it is very simple  My mom and I are just starting to study herbals, just a note, nettle tea is awesome!!!! We use it for kids with UC, and I've been drinking it myself to detox my liver and kidneys, it gives me so much energy and I feel great!! And don't say that's because I"m a teenager, I feel like an old lady sometimes and nettle tea has really helped that


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

LOL, GH! See, I feel that way about herbal/natural - it's so easy once you look into it. I guess it just depends on what your mind can wrap around. And at my age, my mind is pretty particular about what it accepts!!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Pine is a natural dewormer and great for goats. We have all scrub pine and oak here and the goats get to enjoy both.

Herbal/homeopathy -- :scratch: I really haven't studied either but it sounds complicated


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

We use homeopathics extensively with our little herd. We had a pygmy doe that had a rough kidding (she had to go the vet and the baby was actually cut out of her, she had a torn uterus). After that, she would always have incontinence troubles. We read up on it in the homeopathic book _("Goats: Homeopathic Medicine" written by Dr. George Macleod)_ and tried a homeopathic, it worked great and helped a lot. Then we found another one that worked even better, I cannot remember the name of it now. Homeopathics work wonderfully! We love using them and do so often. There are different remedies for coughing, incontinence, abortions, pre and post-kidding, even coccidia and de-worming.

I recommend this book to anyone who would like to use homeopathics with their herd. It makes sense and is not difficult or boring to read.


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## mxgasa (Jul 2, 2008)

Okay Sixshooter, you going to share what you are using for wormer or do we need to order a batch of it? :roll: 

I am trying to lean towards the same plan you are and am interested in your post.

Michelle


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## cjpup (Dec 1, 2007)

WOW! I didnt really realize how far from naural we really are with our herd until I read this post....

We try to be as natural as possible but I guess more like leaving the goat itself as natural as possible. For example, we don't disbudd any of our goats and we do not take kids off mom just because bottleing will make them "friendlier" (yeah, right). We try to use natural medications as much as possible (with our last problem, we used natural selenium tablets) but we also know that there comes a time and a sickness that warrantss medication such as antibiotic. 

We do use chemical wormers though. I want to and have thought about natural wormers but Im afraid they wont work. We had a buckling go down really quickly because his previouse owner used pellet dewormer (which just doesnt cut it most of the time) and he was LOADED with worms. I dont even want that to happen again. This little guy was at deaths door and actually my mom wanted to euthanize him but I just couldnt let her do it. Ozzy pulled out of it thanks to the help of goatworld and is happy and healthy today. His entire treatment was natural other than the wormer. We used iron tablets, vitamin B, and molasses. 

wow Ive rambled. Anyways, what Im trying to say is that I think Natural means different things for different people. We try to keep our goats in their natural "pre-domestication" state but I just never ever want to see any of my animals knocking on deaths door like Ozzy and frankly, Im scared to use natural wormer.....and, if humans hadn't put up fences and such, wild goats wouldnt need dewormer because they are always moving away from the places they poop (which is the main way worms are transmitted)

CJ


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

pelleted wormer and herbal wormer are two different things though CJ.

There is a pelleted chemical wormer. Most herbal wormers are a granular or a powder and you topdress their feed with it.


Where do you purchase such a book? I guess I could always look on ebay :greengrin:


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## cjpup (Dec 1, 2007)

I knwo they are 2 different things, Stace, I guess what I ment was paste dewormer is something that I , so far, trust to ride my goats of their worms. I don't trust pellet dewormers (which are chemical but in a different form) because of this experience so I am having trouble trusting a natural dewormer which is both a different form and not a chemical. Does that make sense?

CJ


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

StaceyRoop said:


> Most herbal wormers are a granular or a powder and you topdress their feed with it.


Actually, Stacey, truly natural herbal wormers are in their natural state - plants, leaves, etc. Just as a goat would eat them in the wild. Which, along with what Cj stated above about their grazing habits in the wild, is why in the wild it is not an issue. They naturally graze on those plants that they "need" - wormers, immune booster, etc. Given choices, a goat will nibble on what its body needs.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well yes I get that. But when people market herbal wormers they are more like a powder or granular, at least that is what I have gathered from the instructions on how to feed it. :shrug: 

She said she was afraid to use herbal because the buckling had been on pelleted wormer, I was trying to make a distinction that it wasn't the same thing.


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

Yeah, I understand the point you were making, and it's a valid one. I was just trying to point out that most of us who raise and market goats as "naturally" raised use actual naturally growing plants - not processed products you buy or buy in some form other than their "natural" state. That's all. :wink:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I need that little Yahoo *humph* smilie :wink: 

One day I may have faith in my ability to carry out something totaly all natural (or 98% all natural) or homepathic.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I'm sure Amazon.com would have it. My aunt told me she got hers for $8 - cheap!  It is really the greatest book on homeopathy, the only one I know of that specifically addresses goats. They also have books for cows, horses, dogs, cats, etc.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Oh, walnut is a good de-wormer, right? We have a walnut tree and our goats like to eat the leaves sometimes. I know there is a liquid black walnut that they use for humans. . . .


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

didnt see it on Amazon, Ebay, or Barnes & Nobal :sigh:


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Try looking on http://www.campusi.com Homeopathy for the Herd is another great book, it is a little more in depth.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

thanks Sarah I will have to look.

I may not go totaly homeopathic or natural/herbal etc but I would love to know more about it and try some of options.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

In case you didn't find one yet. . . .

Here's one link for it. This is a brand new book though. . . . https://www.homeopathic.com/store/product=1239

Here's one for Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Goats-Homeopathic ... 0852072449

Hope that helps!


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I found this really neat recipe for treating Cocci naturally. Thought I might post it here. I plan to use it (but haven't had any babies with that problem recently). Anyways, in case anyone needs it ever. This stuff is all in our kitchen (except the slippery elm powder) - so a good remedy if you do not want to use chemicals or do not have them on hand.

*Cocci Remedy*
1 tsp powdered ginger * 1 tsp cloves * 1 tsp slippery elm powder * 1/2 tsp cinnamon 
1 cup boiling water - Steep for 20 minutes
For a 2 month old kid give 6-10cc twice a day for 5-7 days


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## Victoria (Dec 20, 2008)

Okie , so does anyone have a holistic remedy for treating/preventing coccidia in adult goats?


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/wormer.htm

If you read around in there it will tell you some info.. I know of two diff sites that had ingrediants.. but I have no idea where they went =\


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I'm thinking you can use the exact recipe I posted above, except give them more? :shrug: Sheesh, that's certainly a lot but you could at least try. 

If your goaties have cocci. I would use the chemical treatment (just to be sure it's all gone) and then maybe do a preventative?


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## Victoria (Dec 20, 2008)

So another ? can I give albon to my pg goats?


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I am pretty positive that is okay. . . . about 99% sure. But maybe someone else can be more positive.

Dosing from our vet was 1cc per 5 lbs. the first day. 1cc per 10 lbs. for 4 additional days.


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## BeeLady (Dec 12, 2008)

Thanks for the cocci recipe - wish I'd had it before I started on the corid for my does.

I had a fecal done at the vet's last week which showed 1 worm egg and 1 cocci cyst. I've ordered some Herbal DeWormer from Molly's Herbals (Fias Co) and am going to start the goats on that. I also plan on doing fecals at least once every six weeks, as well as FAMACHA, because down here worms can take hold and kill even adult goats quick. I want to go as herbal, or naturally, as possible but am going to verify with the fecals.

I am not feeding my goats organic feed (grain) yet although we do have an organic mill about 100 miles away. I may start when they are in milk (or at least when I'm drinking their milk). I do have organic alfalfa pellets I can feed them and we grow our own hay and have not used synthetic fertilizer or herbicides in 4 or 5 years.

For cows, when they are fed grain, there is a change in their rumen microbes. But if a cow is left completely on grass and their rumen is not altered by the friendly, money-spending human, the microbes will take the grass and create all the protien needed, as in the case of bison and deer. I feel sure goats must be the same. Ruminants were not created to eat grain. Of course to really have the milked pumped out, or the weight put on, especially more than nature intended, which is what our animals are bred for these days, they need to be given lots of grain and basically "outperform" their rumen. 

It is so difficult to ignore all the billions of dollars worth of advertising (starting at vet schools) that says we need processed feeds, we need drugs, we need to always be buying something new and different for our animals. I have found my peace with my cows and hope to soon with my goats.

Thanks for this section.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I find it really odd that with only one cocci cyst and one worm egg, your vet would have you treating them as if it were an overload. One of those things that is unnecessary and just a way for them to make money. Cocci is always in a goat's system, nothing you can do about it. Stress a goat out or have it living in an unclean environment and the cocci can take over easy. 

It's also not a big deal if a goat has one worm egg. I just find that interesting how your vet advised treatment. But, as you mentioned, if parasites are a big problem, then you don't want it to get worse, for sure. 

Your plan sounds wonderful. I, too am much more inclined to go the natural way with myself and animals. If there's a way to avoid chemicals, I'll be taking it!  

Just curious, Bee Lady, if you plan on vaccinating? I am still in research whether we'll do this so am always curious about other breeder's thoughts.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Victoria said:


> So another ? can I give albon to my pg goats?


I cant see why it would hurt -- it is safe for young kids so :shrug:


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## BeeLady (Dec 12, 2008)

I was not sure about the Corid treatment for one cyst either but went ahead as this vet is about the only show in town and I didn't want to get off on the wrong foot. His reasoning was that their delivery (in May) would produce stress and could increase the Cocci amount and it would be best to eliminate it before the kids arrive as much as possible.

I got word today the Molly's Herbal is shipping me her package so I am going to start on her herbal wormers. Being so new to goats I allowed my judgement to be supersceded by the trained professional. But I don't think any permanent harm has been done. Hopefully I'll come to have more confidence in my own judgement, goat-wise and be able to make more informed decisions.

I don't really have a problem with vacinations. I haven't taken the time to study the pros and cons. I think a normal, healthy organism will have a healthy immune system and genetically has been able to survive the last several thousand years or more precisely because it could defend itself against the illnesses. But our system of raising animals (and humans) has gotten so out of wack that I don't know if the immune systems can handle the environment. Its interesting that CAE, HIV, etc., the increased human allergies, are all auto-immune deficiencies so there's a bunch of us living beings who can't quite cut it anymore healthwise, for whatever reason.

Right now I intend to vacinate the does at 4 mos. pregnant with the recommended vacine. Again, my confidence in my understanding of this issue is quite weak.


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## Anna (Oct 17, 2007)

I suppose I do things a fairly even mix on natural and conventional. I wont pull a kid from his mom unless I have choice, and I only worm every goat once year and "spot" treat the ones that need it inbetween. I learned that becuase of my persistant and regular wormings, and the once a month wormings of thier breeder, that I had built a resistance to almost every wormer on the market.... Studies show now that it really is MOST effective to only worm the ones in need of it, natural wormer or conventional. So going against the grain a tiny bit really has helped my animals. 

On the subject of vaccines, I have to say I am super sensitive to this subject because I tried not giving vaccines to a round of kids a few years ago, and lost one of my kids that was very very special to me. I felt horrible about it, it was something that I could have very easily prevented. Vaccines are not something that should be an option in my oppinion. Humans are required to get vaccines to go to school, work, visit other countries- goats dont have a nation's government forcing it in them, thier only option is your decision. For me, I'll do all I can to eliminate any possible health issues in my herd. And I can kick a few of them in the butt with just one vaccine.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

BeeLady said:


> For cows, when they are fed grain, there is a change in their rumen microbes. But if a cow is left completely on grass and their rumen is not altered by the friendly, money-spending human, the microbes will take the grass and create all the protien needed, as in the case of bison and deer. I feel sure goats must be the same. Ruminants were not created to eat grain. Of course to really have the milked pumped out, or the weight put on, especially more than nature intended, which is what our animals are bred for these days, they need to be given lots of grain and basically "outperform" their rumen.


I don't mean to argue but I disagree with you on the grain subject. It is true to a certain point, when it comes to feeding corn and soy as the main grains in the diet of a ruminant. Corn causes acidity in the rumen and soy is just plain bad all around. This may also stem from the fact that corn and soy are not like what they were a hundred years ago. Corn used to be mostly protein, but through selective breeding and hybridization for better yields the corn has become more starchy(starch = sugar and how do we feel when we eat sugar all the time?). Soy was not used as a grain until the 60's or 70's and before that soy was used as a hay crop and was harvested before beans formed in the pod.

Barley and oats on the other hand are considered grass seed(well corn is too) do not cause acidity in the rumen. Barley and oats really have not changed that much as far as the plant goes. They are low protein high energy grains and have enough carbs to support a milking animal without putting fat on them(unlike corn and soy which put fat on an animal)

and also:



> we grow our own hay and have not used synthetic fertilizer or herbicides in 4 or 5 years


I don't mean to contradict you but there is not such thing as synthetic fertilizer(with the exception of something like anhydrous) potash and lime the most commonly used fertilizers come strait out of the ground and the only processing done to them is grinding them up.

thats just my 2 cents


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## BeeLady (Dec 12, 2008)

Ok - I should have said, we don't use the kind of fertilizer described below, which I suppose is some type of non-synthetic, natural fertilizier:

"The processes involved in the production of ammonium nitrate in industry, although simple in chemistry, challenge technology: The acid-base reaction of ammonia with nitric acid gives a solution of ammonium nitrate:[2] HNO3(aq) + NH3(g) ? NH4NO3(aq). For industrial production, this is done using anhydrous ammonia gas and concentrated nitric acid. This reaction is violent and very exothermic. After the solution is formed, typically at about 83% concentration, the excess water is evaporated to an ammonium nitrate (AN) content of 95% to 99.9% concentration (AN melt), depending on grade. The AN melt is then made into "prills" or small beads in a spray tower, or into granules by spraying and tumbling in a rotating drum. The prills or granules may be further dried, cooled, and then coated to prevent caking. These prills or granules are the typical AN products in commerce."

That's the kind of stuff I don't like having run off into my drinking water, non-synthetic or not.

As far as grain, I believe they are all seed heads of some type -- wheat, corn, etc. The point I was making was the ruminants have survived and flourished without the use of grain for many centuries. Grain does change their rumen flora. Ruminants are the only animals who can manufacture their own protien from grass and forbes without the addition of grain, meat, etc.

Humans like things bigger, faster and more -- so we feed them grain and we use ammonium nitrate to grow that grain in most cases. I believe there is research that indicates, at least in beef, that fat from grass-fed animals has an actual different composition than fat from grain-fed cattle. And that the change doesn't benefit humans. (Omega 3's etc.)

We as a nation are really hooked on our agricultural practices. Just because it is what most of us do does not make it the most sensible or logical. It has become the most economically viable though in many cases due to large corporate influences.


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## mommaB (Oct 1, 2009)

Hey! I didn't read this whole thread, but I did skim through. I didn't see any mention of diatomaceous earth!! This is supposed to be really good wormer, and takes care of lice and other critters. I first discovered it when I got my chickens. You can put in the feed(grain) and you can put on the animal. I also use for my dog & cats. I have no fleas, and my animals are worm free! No mites or lice on chickens either. You also spread in the area of the animals sleeping quarters or around the whole pen as I do with the chickens.
Also apple cider vinegar(organic with THE MOTHER) is supposed to be a really good preventitve(immune booster). This is what I have read, and what I have found in my research.
Anybody have anything to add? :idea:


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Some people think DE is a waste of money. But I think it just depends on your location. Worms are not too resistant in our area, so that may be why it works well here. I've yet to try it but always meant to. . . 

I do put ACV in our goat's water. More because they love it than anything else. Encourages them to drink more, with our goats anyways.


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## goatnoob (Nov 1, 2009)

huh, that's weird my goats don't like ACV... they only drink water that has it is=n it if they absolutely have too.


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## jesse300 (Oct 28, 2009)

DE works well for us, but I also found that you have to be able to get a good amount of DE into them. I have also found that DE will not take care of a goat with a large worn load but dose work well as a wormer on some types of worms. We do use a chemical wormer once a year and as needed.

5 gallons water 
15 gallons malaises (helps to set the drum in the sun for a few hours)
50 pounds food grade DE
50 pounds kelp
5 pallets of “fruit loop seconds”

We start the mixing an old concrete mixer until it over flows. Then poor it over the remanding fruit loops in large plastic tubs. We get the fruit loops and the malaises though a feed lot nutrition broker. The DE is used as a “de clumping agent” for the malaises.

They get one feed scoop about every 3 weeks after we get there weigh, check teeth, check eyelids, over all condition check, and manicures.


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

Well I've sure got a lot to learn... I have my goats on Calf Manna and Rabbit Pellets and am trying to find a good pellet ration to switch them over to that doesnt have any animal fat in it.. I prefer not to use Purina Goat Chow because of the grain.. none of my goats get grain period..
both of my first time does did fine with their first set of kids and both mom and babies are healthy and happy.. I've only been able to read three goat books and I wish there was more out in the library shelves on nutrition
we dont feed alfalfa because of the rabbit pellets... we feed prairie hay free choice and the rabbit pellets are also free choice.. to keep them active they are free range and they have to come up from the barn for water and feed but the hay is kept just outside the fence for easier access and I wouldnt have too much of a mess up at the house
they are also on purinas loose mineral free choice..
as i am not milking at the present salt blocks are out there in the barn,, with one horse and some in the pasture and the llama pen which they have easy in and out.. 
any more than that i just dont know..
getting into goats started out not planned but it just happened..read my introduction in new member section.. so i am learning as i go along
not too many dairy goat owners where i am ,,, kids in four H with boers ,, at county fairs,, not one other breed..
lot of mixed breed goat owners here tho few and far between.. been looking on craigs list and penny pincher newspapers to see whats out there..but I have to rely on the person who sold me the goats and this forum..
am willing to learn and wish i had a computer set up at home ...\
We need a goat chat .....


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2009)

""Cocci Remedy
1 tsp powdered ginger * 1 tsp cloves * 1 tsp slippery elm powder * 1/2 tsp cinnamon
1 cup boiling water - Steep for 20 minutes
For a 2 month old kid give 6-10cc twice a day for 5-7 days""

Does anyone know how long this would keep, or do you use the whole thing in the 5 days??

Also as far as the DE, I didnt think worms could become resistant to it as it is not a chemical that kills them, it is shards that cuts them up??
Thanks for the info, I am really enjoying this discussion.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I'm not positive but I would think it gets used up within the five days. I wouldn't pre-mix it and store. Best to make it fresh.


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

ok i'm a newbie ,, not even a year with goats..
two weeks ago i purchased three does.. one of them had what i would call a beginning uri,,,I had some good G type pennicillin left and called the vet asking if i could use this on her and no problem,,
what i would like to know is there an herbal tea we could find that would be good for goats to bring them through something like that...???
I found a great tea through a friend of mine for my horses.. we used white sage, comfrey, flax and plantain... 
I would love to be able to raise my critters naturally..with out chemicals or drugs... but with the vacines we have to have I guess thats not possible,, would like to get as close as possible tho\


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## Gumtree (Aug 15, 2009)

this is interesting  
my parents are certified organic,running a sheep/cattle farm,
just the last few years we have dealt with the dreaded Barbers Pole Worm...
and has giving us a real run for our money...
however with a natural remedy 
of
Copper Sulfate V.C powder Dolomite mix 
and Garlic Juice 
and a very bad drought....good in one way....kills b.p. worm :leap: 

we have succeeded in getting on top of it touch wood...


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

silvergramma said:


> ok i'm a newbie ,, not even a year with goats..
> two weeks ago i purchased three does.. one of them had what i would call a beginning uri,,,


did you mean UTI?

my friend just had that. She drank lots of cranberry juice

she eventually had to go on antibiotics but she said that sometimes the craberry juice just works (she gets them often) .

Vit C is a natural antibiotic -- I would need to get the dosage but its a pretty high mlg they need a couple times a day


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

no the goat had an upper respiratory infection sorry if i didnt get that on there


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## lissablack (Nov 30, 2009)

Stacey - 

This is a really terrific thread, is it possible to make a section for holistic/natural/herbal/homeopathic questions and discussions?

Jan


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## ToshsHeritageFarm (Feb 3, 2010)

mommaB said:


> Hey! I didn't read this whole thread, but I did skim through. I didn't see any mention of diatomaceous earth!! This is supposed to be really good wormer, and takes care of lice and other critters. I first discovered it when I got my chickens. You can put in the feed(grain) and you can put on the animal. I also use for my dog & cats. I have no fleas, and my animals are worm free! No mites or lice on chickens either. You also spread in the area of the animals sleeping quarters or around the whole pen as I do with the chickens.
> Also apple cider vinegar(organic with THE MOTHER) is supposed to be a really good preventitve(immune booster). This is what I have read, and what I have found in my research.
> Anybody have anything to add? :idea:


Actually, I have learned that DE is not actually effective as a WORMER, meaning it doesn't wipe the worm load out of the goat. What it DOES do, however, is kill worms in manure. It does this by ruining the innards of the worms when they hatch and start to consume the manure, which now contains DE.


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## ToshsHeritageFarm (Feb 3, 2010)

Goat happy-
So... You won't feed your animals GMO products, but you grow GMO crops...?


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## countrymom (Apr 1, 2010)

I have been using herbal wormers since I purchased my goats a year ago. My goats look great shinny hair, good weight and healthy. I think once you start using it you'll see a big difference. All my goats look better since I've had them than when they did when I got them. I do use anitbiotics when I think it is needed but I do try to do everything else first. 

I'm still very much learning about herbs as well as goats. However so far I am enjoying the learning and loving my goats. I've even got my hubby into it all.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

ToshsHeritageFarm said:


> Goat happy-
> So... You won't feed your animals GMO products, but you grow GMO crops...?


sorry I didn't see your post until now.

Aside from our goat operation, we raise conventional(corn and soy) row crops, using conventional farming methods which means that yes like most farmers, we do plant GM crops. We are hypocrites by nature in the way that we raise our animals vs. the way that our crops are raised, but you have to understand that because of the way we manage our farming operation(referring to rowcrops here) we cannot utilize natural practices without taking big risks which could hurt the efficiency of our operation. We run our farm like a business is pretty much what I'm trying to say 

As for me personally, I have nothing against GM crops, there are certain GM crops that are in fact very good but most people shun them just for the fact that they are GM(ever heard of Golden Rice?) The reason we don't feed GM crops to our goats is because the grains that we feed(oats, barley, sunflowers) are crops that do not require genetic modification in the first place.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

sorry to jump off topic. what do you all use for hoof and leg issues? I have a doe who hasnt been getting any grain who founders


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## Itchysmom (Apr 3, 2010)

This is a great Post! I too wish we had a section just for this topic!

I want to agree with whomever posted this...DE only really works in the manure to kill fly larva. We tried this sevral years ago with the orses, when they were in paddocks not pasture. I would dump the DE on the manure pile and I noticed a big difference in the fly population our first summer doing this. We ordered a 50# bag that lasted the year.

Any herbal remedies for congestion...or phneumonia type symptoms?


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

Congestion can be treated with vicks but pneumonia must have an antibiotic, usually Nuflor from the vet.


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## smwon (Aug 3, 2008)

*Re:*



goathappy said:


> Well that is understandable and you are entitled to your opinion. But you are more than likely looking at GMO from a consumers point of view. Personally, from a consumers point of view, I do not think that GMO is the greatest thing as far as food goes. But, you also have to see it from a producer's point of view(which is what I don't like about the organic people that bash us, they don't see OUR view)
> Because of GMO crops, you have no idea how much we have saved as far as chemicals, fuel, cost per acre, etc go. Because of GMO crops, we are spraying less chemicals and burning less fuel than we were before. Also, before we used GMO crops, we had to spray this stuff called feridan(sp?) and after you sprayed it, all the birds in the area would die or get sick and we couldn't let our dogs go out in the field. You cannot believe how much less chemicals we are spraying because of them. Non GMO crops require spraying often.
> I would also like to mention that another reason why we aren't organic is because we have been to several 'organic' farms, none of them were certified but they all fed certified grain and did all the organic practices etc. I have never seen animals in such poor health in my entire life. They were dingy, scruffy, skinny, wormy etc. I've seen cows at 2000 head dairies that were happier than those animals! How do you know they are content? They chew their cud.
> Now, you can do organic correctly, but most often the only time I've seen organic done correctly is if the people doing it were farmers(like us) to begin with and understood the jist of it.
> That's just my opinion.


Farmer or consumer, GMO is just wrong in my not so humble opinion. If your soil is healthy you wouldn't need GM seeds... but because you are a farmer you sell us consumers GMO products, when that is not what we want? I agree though organic isn't great either, there are way too many regulation to make it a good product. The only solution is to not buy the GM or organic products and grow our own... :shrug:

What choice do we have? It's much like milk. I want good healthy raw milk. They only way I can have that is to have my own goats and use the milk from them.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Re:*



smwon said:


> but because you are a farmer you sell us consumers GMO products, when that is not what we want?


Unfortunately, when you say "we," that portion of the population who realizes the importance and healthiness of homegrown food, is a minority. The majority of the population has the Wal-Mart and McDonald's mentality that they want cheap food, regardless of if it is healthy or not. The only way to make food cheap is to mass produce it. The only way to get more yields out of mass production is with GM crops. So unfortunately until the majority realizes what their cheap processed diet is doing to their health, nothing will change. Also, I wish that people were more educated about types of GM crops, yes there's the icky-bad Round-Up Ready that everybody hates, but there are a lot of other GM crops that are very beneficial such as Golden Rice, a rice that produces more Vitamin A than normal rice, therefore curing blindness in kids in third world countries. There are also ongoing projects to increase the amounts of certain vitamins and minerals in potatoes and carrots, as well as making them more suitable to grow in poorer soils.

Also, just because you have healthy soil doesn't mean you are less vulnerable to insects and weeds. Insects like healthier plants grown in in healthier soils more than they do plants that are grown in deficient soils. Same thing with weeds, if they like the soil, they'll grow there. :shrug:


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## smwon (Aug 3, 2008)

True enough - the more that demand healthy foods the more the producers switch to making healthier foods. A well minerlized soil that is in balance does away with a lot of the problems that you speak of and they contain many more nutrients than those grown on poor soil. The switch can and is being made. But of course, if Monsanto has it's way, all seeds will be genetically modified in time. I purchase 'organic', not necessarily because I think it a better product nutritionally, but because it assures me of some small peace of security that it is not GM food. However, saying that, if those that are growing organic foods were to understand what healthy food really is, they too could bring the food up to par. But I realize too, that many have the same mentality as you do... therefore good food can only really be produced at home. And because many don't have the space to produce their own, they are at the mercy of commercially produced GM foods.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

lets get this discussion back to holistic ways to treat your animals.

If you want to continue your discussion please take it off this topic so we can keep this one focused on what it is intended for.

Thank you


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## smwon (Aug 3, 2008)

I'm sorry... I'll keep it in context.


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## Farmgirl675 (Oct 21, 2010)

I am interested in finding books on herbal/natural remedies for my animals, I have done some looking on the web and as I'm sure you all understand it is overwhelming :hair: So I thought maybe someone here could give books and/or websites you use or have read and wether you like/dislike ect. I would like to make my own, not buy commercially made ones. I'm looking for a good guide to which herbs are to treat which ailments and recipes or guideline for dosing. Any info you have would be appreciated!


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## ToshsHeritageFarm (Feb 3, 2010)

I've been thinking about Paul Dettlof's book "Alternative Treatments for Ruminant Animals". You could also check out Molly's Herbal on Fias co Farm. I am thinking alternative treatments for goats will be the same as or similar to other ruminants.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

My mom and I went to a seminar with Dr. Paul Detloff. It was VERY informative. He focuses a lot on ACV with "the mother", sea kelp, aloe vera (BIG on the Aloe Vera), and humates and he has some really nice products he makes himself. We tend to have healthy goats anyways but I've noticed with the additions of the above, a cough that some have had for a while is now gone. No antibiotics, nothing else changed.

His natural antibiotic is truly awesome! CEG is what it's called. Tastes awful (my brother used it when he got sick) but works within a day or so.


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## dtincoelemari (Nov 16, 2010)

I make my own herbal wormer because I don't like chemicals lol. And I don't do vaccines for any of my animals and even my family doesn’t get vaccines.
I want them have strong immune systems so they can fight off the worms and other illness so, I add a little something for that (Astragalus root , Echinacea purpurea herb & garlic)
I also put in a little something to keep the hormones going (damania leaf) and something to help with milk production (fennel). I add a little something to make it a little more yummy to the goats (raw carob). And I add the stuff to treat the worms (thyme, neem, holy basil-tulsi and hehe more garlic). I give this to all my goats from about 3 weeks old and up no matter if they are bucks, does, pregnant does or wethers. And I have never had any issues. It works great for me!! I just ask that if you want to try this please talk to your vet first!!! =)
I use:
1 part thyme leaf powder 
3/4 part garlic
1/2 part holy basil (tulsi) - I powder this myself the best I can in a food processer
1/2 part neem leaf powder 
1/4 part nettle leaf powder
1/4 part Astragalus root powder 
1/4 part Echinacea purpurea herb powder 
1/4 part damiana leaf powder 
1/4 part fennel seed powder 
1/4 part raw carob powder 

It really doesn’t matter how much you mix at a time as long as you keep the portions of each right. I just store all my extra in airtight bags and stick them my freezer.
I feed 1/2 teaspoon per week until my kids hit about 50 lbs then I give 1 teaspoon per 50lbs after that. so a 150lb goat I would give 3 level teaspoons per week. But no more then 3 teaspoons no matter how large the goat. You can also mix this with water and drench but I have never had any issues getting my goats to eat it when mixed in their grain/beat pulp mix!
I buy from rose mountain herbs in lbs and I get about 17 lbs total at a time and it last me all year with 26 goats
I also feed alvacado rinds and that expels worms really well but don't ever feed the leaves or bark of the trees because that is poisonous!
Anyhow hope this helps! 

ooh, I should also add that if your goats have heavy loads of worms when you start to feed this you will probably find lots of live worms in their poo because the worms really don't like this stuff so they leave lol. I try to clean up as much as I can when this happens becuase It's just wrong to leave it laying around..


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## smwon (Aug 3, 2008)

That is really great! Thanks for sharing the recipe...


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## dtincoelemari (Nov 16, 2010)

I forgot to add that I never give any of my goats more the 3 teaspoons even if they are over 150lbs.
And your very welcome!


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## 7thundersranch (Dec 20, 2010)

So, has anyone here heard of Shephards Purse? In my experience, it's saved a goat and a human life! It's for heavy bleeding after birth


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

capriola-nd said:


> I found this really neat recipe for treating Cocci naturally. Thought I might post it here. I plan to use it (but haven't had any babies with that problem recently). Anyways, in case anyone needs it ever. This stuff is all in our kitchen (except the slippery elm powder) - so a good remedy if you do not want to use chemicals or do not have them on hand.
> 
> *Cocci Remedy*
> 1 tsp powdered ginger * 1 tsp cloves * 1 tsp slippery elm powder * 1/2 tsp cinnamon
> ...


Not to toot my own horn, but I wanted to quote this and say that I've used this successfully in saving the lives of several rabbits before, but was fortunate enough to not have to use it on any goats until recently. Abi had cocci a while back and I treated her with this for a week. (I stopped too early and had to continue an extra 3 days) She's back on her feet with normal stools now! Her appetite and attitude are great - wouldn't know she just went through it.
I wasn't sure if I should even bother on a $600 animal and just run to the vet instead, but as I always say, trust in nature.. So I went with my gut and I'm very pleased.. Thanks Olivia! (BTW, WHERE has she gone?)


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## Rev144 (Jan 22, 2011)

Any herbal remedies for congestion...or phneumonia type symptoms?

I have used Oil of Oregano P73 (http://www.vitacost.com/North-American-Herb-Spice-Oreganol-P73)for my goats and dogs. It is anti bacterial, anti parasite, anti fungal and anti viral. There are several herbs that are anti bacterial and anti viral that will take the place of antibiotics. One can go to http://www.mountainroseherbs.com or http://www.herbal-supplement-resource.com/herbs.html and read up on the effects of tons of herbs. Or search the internet for anti bacterial herbs. Another one that is good is Olive Leaf. You can buy a 4 oz bag of it for about 2.75. You can make your own tincture with Apple Cider Vinegar or Vodka. I have been taking 2 drops a day of oil of oregano P73 for 2 years and have not had any viral infections. I get a lot of canker sores and it clears them up instantly when I swish it around in my mouth. I have also used Marshmallow Root For lung congestion with out infection... It made breathing easier.

DE.... DE is great for removing heavy metals from your body. A lot of dentist use it to remove the mercury from them after working with mercury fillings for years. If you are using DE for a wormer and are mixing it with your grains, you are removing the metals AND minerals from your animal. If you have a sick animal with barb pole worms, and they need all the minerals they can get, you think you are making them better, you are actually making things worse, because now they are having the minerals removed. If you are going to continue with DE , it needs to be given 2 to 4 hours between meals and BY ITS SELF. I have given it to a dog with a heavy metal load, but it was given to him before bed and mixed with a little honey and water, (honey is just to make it easier going down) for a few weeks. You also have to be careful because it can dry out the intestines . I have read several studies that said that DE did nothing to parasite load in animals. I would not know, as I have not tried it .

I recently had a little buckling and doeling with diarrhea. This is what they got until it cleared up. (3 days) 
1/2 tsp barberry powder (great for anemia, gas pains, boost immune, dysentery, bacterial diarrhea and parasitic infections of the intestines) http://www.herbal-supplement-resource.com/barberry-herb.html
1/2 tsp dandelion root powder (great for anemia, packed full of vits and minerals)
1/2 tsp Maca (high in vits amino;s,B12, C, E, protien, calcium - i take it myself..... energy booster - big time! ) http://www.herbal-supplement-resource.com/maca-root.html)
1/2 tsp Turmeric (Anti Inflammatory, antioxidant, anti septic, appetite loss, positive on the liver, boils -as in MRSA)
1/4 teaspoon of garlic powder
1/8 teaspoon of cayenne - it activates most other herbs
2 drops of Oil of Oregano (I use P73 - it has the highest active ingredient)
1 drop of Lugol's iodine
Tablespoon of molasses
If I need more liquid, I mix in Colloidal Silver

This mixture will also worm if kept on for at least 10 days. It will not kill the worms, however they will flee from the host. (this happened with my dog..... he had screw worms crawling around his bum! el - grosso) If worming a prego doe take out the barberry.

Cuts..... I mix some turmeric powder with a few drops of coconut oil or olive oil and make a thick paste. Put this on the wound then cover with bandaid. The wound will heal in days (depending how deep) Turmeric is also anti bacterial and will kill off infection.

I try to stay away with anything that has Magnesium stearate, calcium stearate and vegetable stearate. These are added to vitamins and blocks, they put it in so the powder goes thru the machine easier. However while it helps the manufacturer with speed, it does have a side effect. Which is>>> It coats the intestines... the body absorbs most of the minerals and vitamins in the intestines. The Magnesium stearate coats your (or your goats ) intestines and is not able to absorb minerals and vitamins... So they slide on thru.... I went thru all 15 of my vitamins and every one of them had Magnesium Stearate..... and my all natural vits had Vegetable Stearate in them.... Another reason to use whole HERBS.... My goat block has it in it too!

Ok...... I think this is enough for now.... These are some of the things I have tried and they work for me!!!


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

Thank you for the awesome info!!! I've heard some AWESOME things about Oregano oil before, glad others use it.


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## Mandara Farm (Sep 12, 2010)

Rev144, thanks for posting this info! This is terrific!

Do you also make your own feed for your goats, and if so, would you be willing to post your recipe?


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## Countryacre (Aug 24, 2011)

I have been using Molly's Herbal wormers, and they are great. Their all natural and seem to do the trick, we try to go the natural route whenever possible. I got to Molly's Herbals when I found it at Fias Co Farms website.


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## Rev144 (Jan 22, 2011)

Mandara,
I dont feed grains... The goats will eat grass seed out in pasture, but that is about as much "grain" as they get. Right now they are on pasture - grass, clover, tons of dandelion and some other weird stuff!
Their pen is right next to my garden so they get all the garden scraps. In the winter I feed chemical free grass hay in the AM and Alfalfa in the PM. On the milk stand they get a handful of alfalfa pellets, and a handful of sea kelp.

Here is a really good article on how grain turns the animal its fed to from good to bad... http://www.eatwild.com/healthbenefits.htm Grain changes the Omegas in the body .... So when you grain a MILK goat, you are talking your wholesome milk and making it comparable to cow milk that you would buy at the store. I know a lot of people grain grain grain to get that higher milk production, I have had better success with feeding kelp to get higher production... 1 tablespoon of kelp daily raises milk production about 25%.

Here is what happens when the omegas get switched from good to bad.... ?


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## Red Mare (Aug 17, 2011)

Nothing to add feeding wise, but I swear by the holistic remedies and acupuncture my vet uses. 
She's pretty famous for it (Dr. Peggy Flemming here in FL) and I am lucky enough to have a student of her's as a BFF.

The fertility, founder, and cancer treatments I have all seen first hand, and they have both created and saved the lives of my animals. 

I'm working on a diet now that is easy to feed for my help, but better then the commercial grains for my goats! Way easier said then done. 
I'll be starting a topic on it shortly!


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## Mandara Farm (Sep 12, 2010)

Wow, Rev144, thanks for posting! This is a website I'm definitely going to check out! :hi5:


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## Mandara Farm (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok, after just a cursory read-through I'm on board. Need to go through it more but it makes perfect sense to me. I don't even know what kind of grass we have out int he pasture, but I have some big garden plans in the works for next season, so this fits right in with where I'm heading with my property.

What do you give pregnant and lactating does? A little more alfalfa pellet -- or same?


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## Mandara Farm (Sep 12, 2010)

Hi Rev144, me again 

I've been looking through the link you posted on why grass-fed is better, but I don't see a lot of specific detail about what makes a terrific goat pasture. I found a reference to Meadow Fescue, and clover, but that's about it. Do you know where I can find more specific info on creating a great pasture? (I checked a lot of the links on that site, but still came up with nothing...)


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## Chantilly871 (Apr 26, 2011)

I would be interested in obtaining the correct herbs and administering this as a natural wormer....what would I use?


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

I am curious on how many of you guys have used the herbal wormer made by fiasco farms? I have been thinking about trying it out but worried about the formula 1 containing wormwood. If I am remembering what I read on her site was not to be given to pregnant does and to substitute formula 2 for 1 while pregnant. Just wondered how everyone else felt about her formula's.


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## Mandara Farm (Sep 12, 2010)

Hi DDFN,

I use Molly's Herbal Wormer on my girls, and it works great. They've been on it since I've had them -- 2+years now, and never a problem with worms. On the website Molly says her animals LOVE it and eat it out of her hand. Ha. My girls will tell you that it's the worst thing ever inflicted upon them. :roll: I've tried everything to make it more palatable, but the only way to get it down them is to drench them weekly. Do keep in mind that this is only a possibility with your animals -- some love and some hate it -- but if you're going to invest in buying it, be prepared to drench if need be. It's safe for pregnant and lactating does, as far as I know (my girls are all dry).


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Robin,
I think it is great to try and do best to keep out pestisides and chemicals. We are trying quite hard to grow our little garden, orchard and animals with as little chemical intervention as possible. Truthfully, the reason we got the goats was because the poison oak and star thistles were taking over the acres. They have done that. However.. right on the other side of the fence is an enormous poison oak bush creeping all over the place. It is not on our property. It has been sprayed thankfully. Pure Organic farming is extremely hard to accomplish on a large scale especially when the land has not been taken care of in the first place. Once the bad is eliminated, than it is easier to try out organic but I doubt it can happen successfully on a cursed, parasitic, poisonoak, infested land without resorting to using tough chemicals. When goats came onto our disease free property, they were organically raised. They ended up dropping bad worms here and I still do not have those under control. I rake the poop up and haul it to be burned. Someday,, and eventually, I think we will have pure good -almost natual everything but it will take some time. The goats we butchered went to a pasture where they were fed only off the land with blackberries and pasture. No chemical wormers given. That was as close to organic as we have gotten. They were healthy, happy and fat when butchered. 
I am not wanting to worm our goats until after they kid but am giving them raw pumpkin seeds to see if this will help their system to fight of the parasites some. I am trying to work with fewer chemicals but have not been able to eliminate that completely as of yet without the proper browse diet goats require. 
So I suppose that organic farming/natural farming all starts in our own individual attempts to do it as well as we can.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I have stopped spraying the goats for lice. I started when they first came here because the 'organic' raised ones were quite infested in a heavy way with lice and worms. Their diet was evidently lacking suffiecient nutrients to fight. Now they seem to have a good resistance to fight these on their own and in fact.. I think it best to let the lice alone unless they get out of control. 
I have used Neem oil on lice, and mites before. Neem oil is expensive and hard to use on a large herd of goats.


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

Mandara Farm, 

Thank you for your input. I think I may go ahead and order some for a try. I don't mind drenching them as that is basically what we have to do right now. At least the goats are easier to drench then the sheep. Will the goat dose fit into a 20cc drenching syringe easily? 

Thank you again.


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

I have a question on anyone who uses Molly's Herbals and makes the dosage balls. Do you ever freeze the excess?

You see, the recipe for the dosage balls on the website (http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/recipes.htm#balls) makes much more than I need at one time. And its seems like making tinier batches would be do-able. But it would be nice to make the amount that recipe, form them into balls, freeze, and thaw out doses as needed. I'm not thinking of making any huge batch.


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## Mandara Farm (Sep 12, 2010)

Hi DDFN,
Right now I'm using a 30CC drencher and it works great. A 20CC would probably work fine too. It depends on how much water you'll need to make it thin enough to get through the nozzle and still get 1T of the herbal mix to your goaties. If 20CC isn't quite big enough, you could always drench the same goatie 2x.

And Stacykins, I'm SO jealous that your goaties will eat the dosage balls! I wish mine would :hair: :laugh: :doh: It's fine to freeze the leftovers.


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

Mandara Farm said:


> Hi DDFN,
> And Stacykins, I'm SO jealous that your goaties will eat the dosage balls! I wish mine would :hair: :laugh: :doh: It's fine to freeze the leftovers.


I actually haven't tried yet with the dosage balls, I was going to try that next! Today I drenched my two week old with a mix of formula 2, molasses, and warm water. My three week old got formula 1 with the same additives (and will get that for another two days, just like instructed on the Fias Co Farms website for beginning coccidiosis and worm prevention). They didn't not like it, but had funny looks on their faces like they weren't sure. Molasses certainly stains very well, but it at least has some nutrition, such as iron and calcium, which other sweeteners such as corn syrup do not.


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## ETgoatygirl (Mar 23, 2012)

*My holistic Herd*

Hi all. My family and I have been raising all of our animals holistically and pretty much organically from the start. It has always worked well for us. We do occasionally use "conventional medicine" when necessary. These combined methods work for us. I use Hoegger supply herbal wormer to worm my does (which seems to work amazingly well) and I give them raspberry leaves throughout their pregnancy. I also add apple cider vinegar to their water. Hmm, I think that's about all that I give them (holistic wise), unless they have a particular ailment.


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