# Seperation



## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

When do you separate your does that are due? I have a doe Chocolate(LaMancha/Alpine) that is due late Jan early Feb. The other does are starting to bully her since she can't get around as well, is getting slower and is waddling.

I may have been bad and prematurely shaved her udder and tail today since DH was home and agreed to help me. It's also the warmest day that it'll be for another week(until next Thursday!). I also separated them today after seeing her get in her stomach for the 5th time in the hour I was out doing chores in their pen.

My other 3 does are now unhappily living in the summer pasture(larger pasture with no grain station or hay station) with my home made small shed that they are all cuddled up in while she gets the dog house inside the large shed to herself. She barely fits through the doggie door. She also isn't fighting the others for food or water anymore.

They were seriously pushing her away from the water station. There's over 15 gallons of water there for 4 goats. I think they could have shared. Then any time she went to get grain or some of the free choice hay they'd try to chase her off.

She used to be the head doe in charge if that makes a difference. My ND are now going for head honcho, but they've been together for almost 2 months. I'll try to get some new pictures of her tomorrow so you can see. She's just starting to get her udder.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Poor girl, I totally understand your frustration, you'd think they'd have consideration for each other, if only they thought the way we do! Sounds like the other does definitely want to get her knocked down to bottom of pecking order.

IMO, if she were here and getting bullied/picked on to the point she is getting stressed out, or they might hurt her, then I'd separate her at night, and during yucky weather days, so long as she doesn't mind and wouldn't need a buddy.
That's what we typically do.

We have a bully <herd queen> and her daughter that go into a separate pen & shelter in the evening @ feeding time, and we let them out late the next morning weather permitting.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

If the doe permits it, I separate whenever they are getting bullied to the point of me being worried about them or 48 hours before their due date. If the doe is very upset but getting hurt, I find the most gentle doe I have to put in with her and then pull that doe out when labor starts. A new mother seems to be just fine in labor by herself and with her kids by her side for company. 

I have a doe Paprika that is being bullied by EVERYGOAT. I have no one to put her with. But when I separate her she cries and hurls herself against the fence to get back to the herd. So I'm leaving her for no and hoping for the best.


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

She cried for them all of 5 minutes(while we were walking the others down and up the hill to their new pen). Then she realized there was grain in the feeder and ate. She doesn't seem angry or upset yet. She has 2 ducks for company. They really can't see each other very well. I'm just worried that they'll bully her even worse when I'm not there. Her kids are already promised so I have to have them. 

I've been opening my door and listening for her or the others and no cries. I've gone up and checked on her twice so far. She's in the dog house staying warm like she was yesterday until Pippin bullied her out of the dog house and then didn't even go inside.

My least bully goat is 'Merica, which is Pippin's daughter and they are a bonded pair. If 'Merica and Pippin are separated they'll cry and go ballistic until they're reunited. Pippin will gore the fence, ram it and try to climb it. It's terrible to see.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Poor girl. I'm dealing with a terrible bully now and multiple pregnant does. Maybe I will pull the bully out. Those bratty goat girls! 

Your girl is due pretty soon. I would just make sure to spend time with her. If she has no nice friend those ducks might help. Or a radio on talk or classical.


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

The only thing is if I have my dates off she could be due late Feb/early March. I used the same buck twice and he came when she was in heat for a week(since he lives far away) and then a month later for another week when the other one went into heat for 2 weeks(they went out of town for horse competition). If she went back into heat during that time period and he rebred her then I wouldn't know. I was taking care of a 2 year old and a teething infant so the goats were lucky to be watered twice a day.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I've got a bully who's tormenting EVERYONE. She'll probably get sold after kidding, but in the meantime my kidding pen is only big enough for two does at a time (I'm up to 14!) I've got a doe due in a week in there with a junior doe to keep her company - the next doe is due in about 3 weeks, but she's pushy and can stand up to the bully, plus she's verging on overweight while the one I separated needs a little extra feed.


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## Bootsy (Feb 4, 2014)

Im having the same kinda issue with my pregnant angora (( mamma dukes )) poor girl no one likes her, and my other angora doe (( precious )) pure 100% bully hell she dosent need to ram them all she has to do is look at them and they move away from her true story shes like a little furry ball of fire...matter of a fact she is outside in the rain right this moment ramming the side of the metal barn over and over and over, the other 7 goats are in the barn kinda just looking at her...crazy goat


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

Ok, here she is. Sorry it took so long. I'm starting to think it's going to be mid-Feb to early March because she's just so small. I look at pictures of other pregnant goats and they are all a LOT bigger then she is. The only thing I'm wondering about is that she's starting to bag up. She's a FF and her bag was non existent a month ago.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I have a doe due feb 9th who is a FF and just started an udder I would go wth the first due date


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

So, stupid question. How long after they start bagging up and developing their udder before they usually give birth?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Weeks or months. Very helpful right?


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

Chocolate decided to have one doe yesturday without us. We were driving by and Chocolate was laying on the ground. There was this little black lump not moving by her.

I ran out of the car and got to the kid. She was laying down. I cleared the airway, but Chocolate had taken care of everything else. Starlight didn't move for a bit so I was worried.

Chocolate baa'd at her and Starlight perked up her head and started moving. 
DD kept yelling "Baby, baby." DD picked out the name Starlight.


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## DappledBoers (Feb 10, 2013)

Shes pretty!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Mom looks to have a lot of colostrum. I would milk her out and save the colostrum for future.


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

Thank you. Do you know if the blue eyes might stay? This is the first baby we've had. We are keeping her. The mom, Chocolate is being traded in return for stud fees. I was going to trade the doe kid, but I fell in love with her. I figured 6 months and the doeling should be more then ready to wean. By then our other does will have kid and I can milk them instead.


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

StaceyRosado said:


> Mom looks to have a lot of colostrum. I would milk her out and save the colostrum for future.


Wouldn't you let the doe drink it? Do I need to save it for other babies late down the line? We have 3 other does due in May.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm saying she has a lot there and the kid won't drink it all (she only needs a couple ounces and the dam will produce traces of colostrum for a few days longer) to help keep her production up and to have some saved for future emergencies I'm suggesting milking some out and freeze. 

As to weaning age. Kids can wean at 8-12 weeks. 6 months is way longer then necessary. 

Also if you do want milk and since she only has a single you can milk her morning and night and take any extra. And at 2 weeks you can separate at night and milk her in the morning.

Unless her sire is blue eyed no her blue eyes will not stay


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

Ok, so DH went out and milked out one side that was starting to look distended, swollen and an angry red. He got over a gallon! Holy crap. I didn't think you could get that much from one side! Is it just build up because the doe is only drinking from the other side?

It was so swollen that when Chocolate walked some milk would spray out while she was walking. DH said he saw that with cows a lot where the kid would only nurse on one side. He said we'd have to milk it out twice a day if we wanted to keep her in milk. Is that the same for goats?


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh, and I now there's a LOT of poop in the pictures, but we just hayed it all out last night. Chocolate got alfalfa pellets and molasses water last night and she chugged that water and gorged herself on the alfalfa pellets. I think she was famished after birthing her little one.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes your DH is correct you have to keep milking twice a day. The kid may stay on her one side or may start to nurse off both sides at some point. The amount is likely because it was sitting for a while. But she may also be a high producer and give lots of milk. If milk is what you are wanting you may want to change your mind about trading her after you see how she produces. Babies are cute but they take years to grow up and be great producers. Just something to think about. 

Don't worry it's a barn. We all know how poop is everywhere.


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## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

Just wanted to say congrats! And that I think Chocolate is beautiful! Cute baby too. . 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

What a beautiful kid! Congratulations


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

StaceyRosado said:


> Yes your DH is correct you have to keep milking twice a day. The kid may stay on her one side or may start to nurse off both sides at some point. The amount is likely because it was sitting for a while. But she may also be a high producer and give lots of milk. If milk is what you are wanting you may want to change your mind about trading her after you see how she produces. Babies are cute but they take years to grow up and be great producers. Just something to think about.
> 
> Don't worry it's a barn. We all know how poop is everywhere.


 I know about the producing part. I kind of shot myself in the foot when I said that I'd trade a doe for stud services. I didn't have the money to buy a buck at the time and wanted my dwarfs breed. She had an adorable pygmy and showed me the kids he's studded as well. They were what I wanted.

Chocolate is a great girl, but Starlight is the first one we've had born here, so that's why we want to keep her. That and Chocolate has scurs that are annoying so I wont miss her head butts or behavioral problems(she was wild when we got her and is sometimes hard to catch).

We have 2 minis for milk that will kid in May. So we'll still have milk until we dry them off for breeding. We only use a gallon of milk every 2 days, so hopefully we'll get enough from them to make up for losing her. If she's a good milker then maybe the lady wont be that upset that she's hard to catch. ;-)

The buck Chocolate is with produces high producing does and comes from a better milking line then Chocolate. My friend let me use him for stud services in return for labor, but I couldn't stud a full size LaMancha buck to 2 mini does. I didn't want to kill them.

My plan is to buy a Nigerian Dwarf buck from good stock as a bottle baby this summer and then breed him to whatever dwarfs I have to breed next year.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Chocolate has a really nice udder!


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## dnchck (Mar 24, 2014)

She is stunning!! Congrats!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Chocolate looks like she has a very nice udder, you should show her  Congrats on the doeling.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

That doe has a heck of an udder, I wouldn't let her go! You'd be surprised how fast they tame up if they get fed on the milk stand every day


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## Dogwoodcreek-Alpines (May 14, 2014)

A doe for stud fees is crazy. I would never do that. The going fee for registered live cover here is $50. I'd renegotiate. She has a great udder and lines aren't everything. The kid could be a flop. I love Chocolates color too!


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

I agree with ya'all that I should probably keep her. Chocolate was a cull from another herd at $65 because her horns came in after they had tried to dehorn her. She was mostly wild. They sold her to me with the green bands on her horns and they snapped off. She's now developing scurs that I have to file every month when I trim her hooves. I have had to work and continually work with her so I can catch her. I have to corner her in the shed while she's eating and grab her collar. She's docile once caught but still...

I also want to keep Starlight because she's the first goat born on my farm. Sounds like a bad decision, but the only chance I'm not getting rid of Chocolate in July is if Stubby has a doe. Then that doe will go to the lady.

I'm looking into buying a ND bottle buckling so I don't have to worry about future studding.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Plenty of great ND breeders in MD and surrounding areas. I'm also not far away in NJ and will have bottle babies soon. 

I think you will make the best decision for your herd. Starlight maybe the best of both worlds, milker like her mama and better temperament for handling. I totally understand getting rid of a nice doe due to temperament! I Did it last fall and I'm doing it again this winter. Not worth having a goat around that you dislike trying to catch and deal with continually. The doe I'm selling this winter (leaves hopefully soon or I will keep her till she kids) is great to come in for milking (though I still have to entice her and stand out of the doorway) and stand great to be milked but the hassle of everything else (deworming her, handling her for other things etc) is literally not worth her nice udder!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh and if you keep starlight on her mama till she is older she will likely grow nicely and quickly. You might even be able to breed her this fall.


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## Dogwoodcreek-Alpines (May 14, 2014)

If her temperament is the issue, I would bottle raise starlight. Her mother will teach her a lot of the same habits you don't like in Chocolate. I bottle feed all my babies and they are more than ready to breed by fall. Full size Alpines 20oz mothers milk twice a day.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh I wasn't saying that only dam raised would grow. I was just mentioning that she would grow nicely since the owner plans on leaving her on her dam for 6 months. And to let her know that a nicely growing kid can be bred in the fall


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## Dogwoodcreek-Alpines (May 14, 2014)

Just wanted to point out kids born to "unfriendly" does tend to take their cues from their mother. I sold a really great doe for behavior problems last year, so I understand. The one doeling I let her dam raise was JUST like her. Sold her too. Her others I bottle raised were sweet as sugar. If you want to dam raise just make sure to spend lots of time with her. And I'd get rid of her mother at 9-12 weeks old to limit her influence and build her attachment to you. At six months..... That would be very challenging. Not impossible, but I wouldn't want to do it.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I do agree moms temperament plays a huge part in many cases. By now though she should be seeing that develope and can make a decision. Sometimes just separating for a few hours and playing with the kid/s can be enough. Personally I just don't have that kind of time. So with wild dams I bottle feed the kids or I partially bottle feed


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## Dogwoodcreek-Alpines (May 14, 2014)

I agree with all she said!  I don't have that kind of time either. I bought two dam raised does last year, and though they are not wild, it IS harder to do things with them....


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

I've been playing with Starlight 1-2 hours a day. She comes wagging her tail when I come into the pen. Her mother will come up to me now, but some how knows when I want to milk her and will prance around just out of reach. 

I'll start giving Starlight treats when she's eating more solid foods. My two ND does love me and I can't get them to leave me alone. They are always on me giving me kisses, offering their heads up to be scratched and following me around. They always check my pockets for treats too.

Chocolate could not care less if I had a treat for her, even for apple slices. She expects me to put it down and walk away before she's interested. I can usually entreat her with a bucket of sweet feed to come up to me and then I have to quick grab that collar. I can't just reach out and grab it like I can with the others.


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## Dogwoodcreek-Alpines (May 14, 2014)

Chocolate sounds pretty typical for a dam raised kid to me. I have one I've had for years and is just now getting to the point she will come to me for a scratch now and then. She isn't big on treats either. She views it as a trap. Lol. Sometimes she will take one. My dam raised kids were open and friendly until around weaning age.. Say between 3-4 months for most does? Then it was like they woke up and I was the enemy. I had gotten busy though and did not mess with them daily. Someone who can may not experience that change.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

See, mine will come to be put on the milk stand even if they're not friendly the rest of the time! Anything for food. My dam raised kids are plenty friendly as long as I handle them enough - the boys tend to get ignored and are more wary, but my first wether got lots of attention and was happy to sit in my lap. But so far I've only had kids from friendly dams; this year I've got a few wild ones so we'll see how that goes. Maybe supplement bottling is a good idea for the keepers.


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

StaceyRosado said:


> Plenty of great ND breeders in MD and surrounding areas. I'm also not far away in NJ and will have bottle babies soon.
> 
> I think you will make the best decision for your herd. Starlight maybe the best of both worlds, milker like her mama and better temperament for handling. I totally understand getting rid of a nice doe due to temperament! I Did it last fall and I'm doing it again this winter. Not worth having a goat around that you dislike trying to catch and deal with continually. The doe I'm selling this winter (leaves hopefully soon or I will keep her till she kids) is great to come in for milking (though I still have to entice her and stand out of the doorway) and stand great to be milked but the hassle of everything else (deworming her, handling her for other things etc) is literally not worth her nice udder!


I live in MO. I've seen a few breeders advertise on facebook and craigslist. I'll go check out their farms and look at their paperwork before I buy. I don't know anything about bloodlines, showing or such. I'm into goats for milk production. My 2 year old DD has a cow milk allergy. She can have goat milk, goat cheese etc, on cows she has trouble digesting any kind of "liquid" product. She can have hard cheeses made with cows milk so we got lucky there.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Ah sorry Im on my phone browser and it looked like a MD not MO. 

I'm sure we can help you find breeders. And some even ship which since you said you have a long term need making sure you have goats that will produce more then just a decent amount would be beneficial


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

I found a ND farm that's 100 miles from me. They show their goats and also compete in milk production. I'm going to take a look at them.

This is their website: http://www.meadowpondnigerians.com/index.html

This is their advertised show record. Is it good? I have no idea.

Show Record​ Junior Grand Champion 2014 MO State Fair Sedalia MO​ Junior Grand Champion Doe 2014 SE Kansas Dairy Goat Club Show Fredonia KS
​  Reserve Grand Champion Doe 2014 Quad Show Springfield MO​ Reserve Grand Champion Doe 2014 MO State Fair Sedalia MO​ 2X Junior Reserve Grand Champion Land of Lincoln Fall Frenzy Show Charleston Il​


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

The only thing I've noticed is that they don't have any of their own breeding. Kind of odd. But maybe they are fairly new to the goat breeding thing. They do have one 2014 junior doe I'm assuming is their own breeding.


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

They said they started in 2012.


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

I have a question to see if any of you ladies think my other goats may be pregnant. These are the best pictures I could get of Stubby, the white goat. She's wild. As in if you catch her she'll buck, and go wild until you let her go. She'll follow the rest of the herd. She will now come up to the gate with the others for food, but as soon as I open the gate off she goes.

I don't blame her since she was attacked by a dog twice. Once bit her tail off and the other a large gash in the leg. The lady I bought her from thought she was going to loose her leg so sold me her at meat price for $50. She's walking just fine and not even a hint of a limp.

She was with a buck from July to December. So I know the latest she would kid would be 5 months. Here's the kicker. I got a pygmy buck for my two Nigerian Dwarfs and they all ran in the same pen together for almost a month. During that month it looked like she went into heat, but even if she did I don't think she let him mount her. Who knows, she might have once I was out of the picture.

Do you think she's pregnant? Sorry about the pictures, but this is as close as I could get with zoom. She is an Alpine and Savannah cross.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Does not look bred to me. But she just might not be far enough along yet for an accurate pooch test


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Can't tell much by the pictures - but if she was in heat, all odds are that she stood while you weren't looking. I've only had one doe be exposed in season and not take - she was a sales barn doe, so my guess is that she was barren.


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

I didn't put enough information in. She would have been exposed to they Pygmy buck mid January. The latest she was exposed to the LaMancha buck was early December. So it looks like the LaMancha didn't breed her so I'll have to hope the Pygmy did. She's put on a little bit of weight in the last couple of weeks so I was wondering.


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

My husband says she only gets one more breeding season and if she doesn't kid next year we are going to eat her or keep her as a companion for the buck we're buying. I vote companion.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

If bred in January then it's to early for a pooch test


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

Well I'm keeping Chocolate and Starlight. The lady took Stubby instead. I'll miss Stubby, but she tried to head butt DD and that's a huge No, NO.

It worked out well and there's no hard feelings on either side. Stubby will produce some nice kids. I don't think the LaMancha buck took with her and I don't think the lady's Pygmy bred her either so she'll be open this fall.

I'm going to wait until December before I decide on if I'll bred Starlight. I may just wait until next year. I bought an Alpine bottle baby buck that I had some problems keeping healthy. He's healthy now and weaned. He was a LOT older then I thought he was when I first bought him.

I also got a ND buck that will produce some nice colors. I plan on retaining all my does from the mini's(praying I get some) and breeding them to the ND buck next year. Here's some pictures of my new bucks!


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## Goats4Milk (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh, ND is purebred but I'm buying him without papers. He's got blue eyes and I love the coloring. The Alpine was from the Amish, no papers either. 
I might eventually get into registered goats, but it seems like that wont be for a couple of years now. At least that gives me some time to figure out what I want to do and how to register and what all that jazz means.


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