# Not Bonding? What to do?



## surfingirl (Feb 27, 2014)

My laMancha had twins tonight, it was dark and just as I was putting them away for the night I noticed her first kid coming out. She dropped one, and it was sputtering so I got in there and toweled it off, then I noticed that another kid had been born right onto the snow. I scooped it up and put it with the other one, also dried it off a bit, and then I gave my goats some hay and offered some warm water with molasses.

My problem now is that the mama goat is not interested in her babies, at all. I have to force her to nurse them and she did not lick them, not once. She turns her head away when I put them up to her nose. I tried putting some of the afterbirth on her nose to clue her in to lick them but it didn't work.

I have them now in the same stall, I made sure the babies had some colostrum and I also was concerned that mama's udder was too tight so I milked out about a litre and her bag still feels full.

My real question is do you think it is safe to leave mama and babies in the same stall? if she is not interested in them now, could they bond overnight or are they in danger of being sat on and hurt?

I set my alarm for 4am when I will go check things out again and make sure the kids are getting fed. Looks like we're in for a long night! The kids are both girls so I really want them to survive.

Thanks for the help.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did she bond with them at all? If you can at least leave them together that would be good. Milk her out all the way if you have to bottle and freeze some of the colostrum.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

How are they this morning? Is mama any more interested in the babies? If not...you have bottle babies. How attached are you to this doe? Were you planning on using her for milk anyway (as in taking the babies away and milking for yourself?) Oh, and is she a first freshner (FF)?


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## surfingirl (Feb 27, 2014)

The mama has kidded once before, but she didn't kid last year so it has been a while. I think I have bottle babies, I'm about ready to give up on the mum. I still have to force her to let them nurse - she isn't mean to them, she doesn't butt them or anything, but she is quite indifferent. Actually she seems really confused. Its almost as if she is looking for her babies, and thinks that her kids belong to someone else. 

Meanwhile another goat had a kid this morning and I wasn't there, and they are totally bonded. 

I think I interfered too much in the first birth, I was worried that the kids would get cold so I toweled them off and the mum didn't clue in to lick them or anything.

On the bright side they are beautiful twin girls, one with lamancha ears and the other with nubian ears.

Now I get to read up on bottle feeding!!!


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## surfingirl (Feb 27, 2014)

Oh and yes I was planning on using the milk from this doe so at least everyone is healthy.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did you have fabric softener on the towel you used?


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## surfingirl (Feb 27, 2014)

No, I didn't have fabric softener or even any strong smelling detergent in the towel, maybe I dried them off too much? Poor mama is calling for her babies, looking for them, and they are right there calling for HER and she doesn't want anything to do with them!

I'm still trying to make her nurse them but I'm about ready to give up. Atleast I've also been bottle feeding so that if I have to do that, I know they will take the bottle.

I'm worried about the mamas udder, though... it is still kind of hard and tight after I milk out as much as I can. There were tiny chunkies in some of her first milk (it has since cleared up) I'm wondering if it could be the onset of mastitis. Should I just keep milking and massaging? Is a crazy huge udder normal after kidding? 

I have only had one goat kid before and she had triplets, her udder was in distress until I removed one of the kids.

Thanks for all the questions and help, so nice to talk to people who know goats. I live in a remote off-the-grid community with no store, and no vet. Thanks guys


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would milk out mom and feed the kids her milk.

Sometimes even just a little smell on the towel will make them smell different. So if there was any scent at all, that could do it. Getting mom's milk into them will give them mom's scent.


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## surfingirl (Feb 27, 2014)

I have been milking the mom and bottle feeding, and also trying to get them to nurse, but the mom's udder is now big and hard AND hard to milk - it is still firm when i'm done milking. I didn't have any peppermint oil but I used eucalyptus and some udder balm and did lots of massaging, some really warm compresses (which she hated, she was struggling the whole time) the kids are doing great and I hope I did the right thing by penning them in with the mom again tonight.

Like I said she isn't mean to them, doesn't butt them, she is just indifferent. I put some of their poop on her nose, and some of her milk on their heads. I'm trying everything. But if I have to bottle feed the kids, I will.

Will a goat that has poor mothering instincts like this continue to be disinterested in her babies? One of my other goats has been such a great mom, both years I've had her.

Thanks for the responses, I am really learning a lot through this experience.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I really suspect the detergent smell from the towel did it. I only use unscented detergent when washing towels for kidding.

You need to massage/warm compresses and milk out mom several times per day to get all that congestion out. It sounds like you really need to work to get her milked out.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

ksalvagno said:


> I really suspect the detergent smell from the towel did it. I only use unscented detergent when washing towels for kidding.
> 
> You need to massage/warm compresses and milk out mom several times per day to get all that congestion out. It sounds like you really need to work to get her milked out.


Karen, I have to disagree with this. I use Spring Scented Tide with bleach alternative laundry detergent, plus I always, always bleach my kidding towels. I've dried off at least 100 kids over the last 7 years and never, ever had a problem with a doe rejecting her kids. If that doe gave a damn about her kids she would have been throwing a fit trying to get back to the first one.


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## surfingirl (Feb 27, 2014)

MsScamp said:


> Karen, I have to disagree with this. I use Spring Scented Tide with bleach alternative laundry detergent, plus I always, always bleach my kidding towels. I've dried off at least 100 kids over the last 7 years and never, ever had a problem with a doe rejecting her kids. If that doe gave a damn about her kids she would have been throwing a fit trying to get back to the first one.


That makes me feel better! I keep thinking that if I had just let them all be, that things would have gone the right way and I wouldn't be dealing with an indifferent mama.

Update on the situation... I've been milking and massaging and rubbing stuff on her swollen udder and it finally started to feel normal again (softer, anyway, like I was actually getting towards empty) and she let the kids nurse - we were still holding her but she was more relaxed. Then tonight I went in to the stall with them to bottle feed and she also let one kid nurse and she let me milk her, which she normally never does unless she has her head in a food bowl.

Maybe she is finally understanding that getting milked and letting the kids nurse feels good and will make her udder more comfortable.

The kids are doing great either way, they haven't missed a beat.

I on the other hand am very sleepy, haha!


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## surfingirl (Feb 27, 2014)

*Picture*










the little lamancha/alpine doe kidling. her twin has nubian ears. i'm glad at least they have each other to snuggle.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Aw, cute! We bleach our towels too. The only time I've had a problem is when my husband pulls the baby completely out and brings it into the house to dry it off....then we play heck trying to get mama to take it back (hasn't happened yet...I hate bottle babies LOL) He did learn his lesson and doesn't do that anymore. Hopefully, mama will start allowing babies to nurse and you can get some sleep.


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## surfingirl (Feb 27, 2014)

*Breakthrough!*

There was a breakthrough today. I have been making the mom nurse her babes, she has slowly and reluctantly relaxed a bit while I hold her and let them nurse. They are of course being bottle fed as well and I'm milking the mother in the morning, afternoon, and at night. Her udder is doing much better.

This afternoon I brought her in to the milking station, milked her while she munched some hay and then I put the babies to her teats - well, she smelled their butts. Like, she got a whif of their little milky bums and all of a sudden she was interested in them!!!!!! she even is letting one of them nurse while she chews her cud!! I didn't think this would happen.

I read somewhere that if a mama goat doesn't take to her babies within 24 hours of birth, it won't happen.

Does anyone think I have a chance? It is slowly getting better, as if the mom is coming around... I still have hope.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would keep trying.


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## mallyrk (Mar 2, 2014)

I had a similar situation with a pygmy doe and her twins. She wasn't interested in them & wouldn't let them nurse. If I wouldn't have walked down and found them when I did, they probably would have froze to death. She hadn't cleaned them off or anything. 
I had to keep tying her up so they could eat. I kept them locked in their stall and just kept trying. I'm not a fan of bottle babies.. Lol
Finally, days later, she would willingly let them eat without me tying her. 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## alicejane (Jan 15, 2014)

Great job taking care of moma & kids. It seems like forever when trying to read mom goats mind. She may have been in such distress she didn't think she had her babies yet. I sure it was very confusing to mom goat. She is blessed with having such a patient caretaker. Good job! Thanks


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## surfingirl (Feb 27, 2014)

Thanks so much for the support everybody, the mama has officially accepted both her babies and they are fully nursing now without a problem. It didn't happen until day 4, so I too will always encourage people to keep trying. All 4 of my goats have now delivered and are bonding and nursing! Hooray for a successful kidding this year! Blessings to all.


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