# Black Neck Alpine?????



## Suellen (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi, I scanned these pictures from my "New goat handbook". I have done a lot of internet searching to find someone with these. I think these Black neck Alpines are adorable. I have two pure Alpines and 4 Alpine mixes. I need more goats ? Does anyone have info on these goats? Also I was wondering if there is any health differance in the coat colors.
















Suellen 
Southern Utah, 8am this morning it was -1 degrees


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

these would be termed Cou Noir (pronounced coo nwah) and this literally means 'black neck'. 

I cannot see any health benefits between the different colours exhibited by the French Alpine breed, except that if the skin under the white section of these cou noir animals is pink rather than a dark (grey/black/tan/brown) they will become vulnerable to cancer of the vulva - which I have seen and it is not pretty. Similarly, the Cou Blanc which has opposite markings - white front and coloured rear - if these animals have pink skin in the forequarter this leaves them open to eye cancer - again not pretty, treatable but expensive.


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

Keren, what if a doe has all pink skin? The Alpine buck I showed you on your BA pic thread (dunno what color skin), and a dark skinned nubian doe had our Jenna, and she has mainly pink skin everywhere as far as I know. What color of skin do Saanens have?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Amos, Saanens according to the Australian Breed Standards should have tan or olive skin, some black spots are acceptable. Pink skin is listed as a fault. I am suprised that your kid came out pink skinned, but then again I am not sure how the genetics of it work. In the case of your doe, I would watch really closely for vulva and eye cancer, as well as udder cancer. 

I have seen vulva cancer in a Boer x Saanen doe with pink skin, though it is a friends doe so I dont have a picture handy. And one of my Saanen does is just beginning to get eye cancer  when I have a spare moment I will grab a photo for you. At the moment I am doing ALL of my honours paperwork again because apparently the uni lost it somewhere along the way :sigh:


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

Oh that is great  
I think I would die if I lost Jenna.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Amos, cancer is just the worst case scenario and something you should keep an eye out for. It doesnt necessarily happen to all pink skinned animals. It also depends on your climate - it gets VERY hot and sunny here in Oz. And your facilities - make sure she ALWAYS has access to shade/shelter. And just keep an eye on it - in my experience the eye cancer is more common than the vulva. Basically the vulva cancer looks like a wart or a sore on the vulva or any of the skin around the backside, and it doesnt clear up. The eye cancer can start off as just a weeping red eye, or in the case of my saanen a thickened third eyelid. I go out and see if I can get photos.


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

The hottest it ever gets in the summer here in MN is usually 90, and that doesnt happen alot. She has had the option of shade and the barn all of her life. 

The Saanen with the eye cancer, is that one of the two does you just got?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Yep, I stupidly didnt notice the eye when I bought her. I guess it happens :doh: I have never seen it in such a young goat, though

Possum's right eye - thickened third eyelid which didnt respond to antibiotic treatment









The same photo zoomed in









Fiona's eye for comparison









You can kinda see the difference in her eyes here









Eye cancer is treatable; if you catch it early often it is enough for the vet to remove the third eyelid. If it has progressed, it can often be stopped by removing the entire eye and stitching the lids closed.


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## lesserweevil (Oct 5, 2007)

hrmm I have saanens with pink skin... :roll: they seem to be fine...


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

LW ... like I said its not something that affects ALL of them. I just happen to deal with a large number of goats (between mine, the work ones and friends goats) so I tend to see it when things like this crop up. Also something that USUALLY only affects old goats - 8 to 10 yrs plus


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## Suellen (Mar 9, 2008)

WOW Keren it's sad that you didn't notice the eye before you got her but I think she is in the best home she could have (besides mine). 
I did know the terms for Black neck, White neck. . . I also did my searches using them and didn't come up with anything.

Suellen


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## FunnyRiverFarm (Sep 13, 2008)

I don't have any info...but those goats are really cool looking! 

Light-skinned animals are more prone to developing skin cancer, just like light skinned people are. There's not much that can be done about it unfortunately...short of slathering sunscreen on them. That's not really practical with most animals. 

I have a white cat and he has skin cancer on his ears...he is 15 years old though, so this took many years of sun exposure to develop. I think places like the ears, nose, and yes, the vulva area, are most susceptible because of the lack of hair covering them...


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Suellen said:


> WOW Keren it's sad that you didn't notice the eye before you got her but I think she is in the best home she could have (besides mine).
> I did know the terms for Black neck, White neck. . . I also did my searches using them and didn't come up with anything.
> 
> Suellen


Suellen, you know I'm a bit conflicted about what to do with this goat. Because she is sooo young, she has never kidded yet never produced for me, she was a VERY cheap goat and you can tell by the quality, and although she is a sweet little thing I'm not sure I can justify the $600 vet bill on a cheap appendix D goat (that is to remove the third eyelid). At the moment I am keeping it patched through summer and monitoring her behaviour, she is not at all worried by it yet so here's hoping she will have a nice little doe kid that I can keep if she gets to the stage where she needs to be euthanased.


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

Keren, I know alot of cancers are hereditary (atleast for humans), could her kids, even if they are not pink skinned, also be prone to these cancers? Jenna's only kid, a buck we named Ernie, is dark skinned.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I lost my white doe Liz (RIP) that was 15 years old to Cancer August 25 2007. She had bone cancer. It was in her front leg. She was white and had very pink skin.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Cancer in white horses is quite commen too. The auctions around here wont take a white horse for the melinoma (sp?) risk. 
I think waht you are actually looking at is either the valais black neck goat
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/goat ... /index.htm
or the bagot goat
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/goats/
Cou noir alpines are extremly rair and often people who say they have them are mistaken by a black and white goat with an extremly large white belt. like this
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... safe%3Doff he is at the bottem
they aften have spots on the back end. 
I know roeburns alpines had a true cou noir at one time. but they have taken his pictyure down and i cant remember his name.
I did a search and couldnt find any.
beth


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

beth, I would imagine one way of getting these cou noir alpines is by breeding up from a boer base, and perhaps this is where the original photos came from? 

Amos, I dont think the cancer is highly heritable, but the pink skin can be, thus a tendency to be susceptible to cancer can be heritable. I would think that your buck kid should be fine with the dark skin.


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## K-Ro (Oct 14, 2007)

Suellen said:


> Hi, I scanned these pictures from my "New goat handbook". I have done a lot of internet searching to find someone with these. I think these Black neck Alpines are adorable. I have two pure Alpines and 4 Alpine mixes. I need more goats ? Does anyone have info on these goats? Also I was wondering if there is any health differance in the coat colors.
> 
> When I first started with Alpines I wanted one of the Cou Noirs but from my research they are not available in the USA (and none have been born here), now of course I can't find that info again but only did a quick a search. I will keep looking and send you the link to the info if and when I find it.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

that could be. But i would be more inclined to bred a nigerian dwarf with a black and white belted alpines. Using a buck that is a buckskin with really light tan in the back, and little to no facial markings. That way you at least are keeping in the dairy breeds. If you use a meat goat you will never get back to american statis. 
beth


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## Suellen (Mar 9, 2008)

Beth you are great at the internet searching. Thanks.

:scratch: :? 
I don't know much about genetics
Q: Why wouldn't you breed 2 Alpines to try and reach the coloring? 
Q: Wouldn't a Nigerian with an Alpine produce a smaller goat?
Q: Wouldn't a Boer with an Alpine produce a stockier goat rather than the sleek Alpine?

Suellen


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

The cou noir is a really rare color. I have only ever seen one it was a buck the the roeburns had. He is no longer alive. Breeding for the color i would start with the nigies because you are more inclined to get that black in the front end. Yes you would end up with a smaller goat to start off. but if you can get the color and then keep breeding to alpines to try and maintain the standars for the alpines while still continueing to breed for that color you may e able to get one. In four generations you would have a registered american alpine that you can show in the alpine breed classes. But there is no garuntee that you have stuck with that color. But if your wanting to show and keep with the dairy goats then you will want to keep in the recognized dairy breeds. 
If you breed to a boer you more then likely could acheive the color better and faster but you will never be able to regain the american status with a meat goat. 
And this is all IF you can get that cou noir patturn. Alpine colors are so up in the air. I have got solid black kids out of two chamoisee animals, spotted kids out of a black buck and a traditional chamoisee doe....this is one reason i love the alpines so much is you never know what color kids are going to be.
beth


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## Suellen (Mar 9, 2008)

I also love the look of the Alpines I also like the Obers. You are right you never know what colors you will get 
Mac is a pure Alpine and Christy is 1/2 Alpine 1/2 Ober







*+*







(not fat pregnant) *=* 3 boys!















Guy, Floyd and Boog. Guy looks just like his mom you would never guess that Guys dad is an Alpine. 
I still have Guy and my friend bought floyd and boog.

Suellen


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Yeah, i love the colors. Black and white is my favorite. Usually cou blanc or cou clair, black and white pied is neat. they really stand out in the ring. I love flashy face markings. I dont have a picture of her but i havea sundgau kids with cream points and a bald face with black and tan spots over her nose and eyes. She is really flashy, hence the name Sizzl'n Hot
beth


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I have a "beginner" goat book that has a picture of a goat that looks exactly like that pic...it says it's a Welsh Black Necked Goat. :hi5: Good luck...I've never seen one...but they could be here.


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