# New San Clemente Buck



## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

Hello all,

Okay, I've been _not here_ for a couple of years. Among other things it means I have had minimal goat problems - which is a good thing. 

To the point----I finally have a white San Clemente Island buck, now named Austin. I got him a couple of months ago. Since none of my friends/acquaintances give a hoot about my goats, I thought I'd come back here to show him off. He is about 4 years old and not used to being touched. I'm making a little progress with making him more tame. He has four does (two mother-daughter pairs) to himself.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

He's awesome! Love those horns!😍


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## GoosegirlAsh (Mar 24, 2021)

He's a beauty!


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

He's beautiful! I love how majestic he looks. I'm intrigued by San Clemente goats...I don't know much about them. Are they a dual purpose breed?


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

San Clemente Island goats are a small breed. Duel purpose I suppose, but not really economic as either. They are slow growing and fine boned. One of the main selling features for me is that the bucks do not have the scent glands. Still one of the most endangered breeds.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very nice.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Wow, so the bucks don't smell? Do they still pee on themselves?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Very impressive herd sire. He is like eye candy for me, thick and curving horns, long and luxgerious beard and an aura of confidence.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

MellonFriend said:


> Wow, so the bucks don't smell? Do they still pee on themselves?


Oh they do pee on themselves. I have found that putting their front feet into a bucket of warm water and rinsing the back of their legs and their beard is a quick solution. 

I do wonder what the evolutionary advantage is of peeing on yourself.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

They pee on themselves to attract the ladies. It's goat cologne. 😘


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

Yes, of course. But what is the evolutionary benefit of females being attracted to pee face?


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> San Clemente Island goats are a small breed. Duel purpose I suppose, but not really economic as either. They are slow growing and fine boned. One of the main selling features for me is that the bucks do not have the scent glands. Still one of the most endangered breeds.


How interesting! Thanks for sharing!


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Hes a nice looking buck! I do hope you breed him to your does. I would love to see his offspring.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Hes a nice looking buck! I do.hope you breed him to your does. I would live to see his i


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

He is gorgeous!
Regarding the evolutionary advantage of peeing on yourself... maybe the ladies can tell from the smell which buck is superior.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Okay so I have a hypothesis. Female goats in the wild don't live with the males all season, so when the rut comes around the females need to be able to find the males. Maybe the strong scent would help attract females better. Madhouse might be on to something too. Maybe the does can tell things about the bucks through their smell, kind of like dogs can. Testosterone levels, resilience, age, that sort of stuff.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

MadHouse said:


> He is gorgeous!
> Regarding the evolutionary advantage of peeing on yourself... maybe the ladies can tell from the smell which buck is superior.


Perhaps. More testosterone in the urine??
Though I would have thought that the horns and fighting ability would be enough to impress the girls.
Are there other species that do that?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> Perhaps. More testosterone in the urine??
> Though I would have thought that the horns and fighting ability would be enough to impress the girls.
> Are there other species that do that?


Animals that pee on themselves? Here's a whole list. 😂 Self-anointing in animals - Wikipedia


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

MellonFriend said:


> Okay so I have a hypothesis. Female goats in the wild don't live with the males all season, so when the rut comes around the females need to be able to find the males. Maybe the strong scent would help attract females better. Madhouse might be on to something too. Maybe the does can tell things about the bucks through their smell, kind of like dogs can. Testosterone levels, resilience, age, that sort of stuff.


That would explain the scent glands but not necessarily the urine.You'd think that if urine in the beard was such an important indicator, then many other species would do the same. I wonder, in the wild, is it the female that hunts for the male or is it the other way around.

Another interesting fact about San Clemente Island goats is that they are always "in season". The does can breed any time of year.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

MellonFriend said:


> Animals that pee on themselves? Here's a whole list. 😂 Self-anointing in animals - Wikipedia


Well, thanks for that. A stream of information.....


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> That would explain the scent glands but not necessarily the urine. You'd think that if urine in the beard was such an important indicator, then many other species would do the same.


Well unfortunately this is were you've lost me 😌. I'm not 100% an evolutionist, so I just go with: "That's not the way it was designed" to answer that question in my mind. 😉



Mike at Capra Vista said:


> I wonder, in the wild, is it the female that hunts for the male or is it the other way around.


This varies species to species, but my guess in goats is that in the wild the proximity of a buck would bring the doe into heat. That still happens in domestic situations when you bring in a buck to does that haven't been around one. So basically in the wild the buck would be wondering around and looking for ladies, and the smellier he is the farther away the does could be brought into heat and then the easier the does could find him once they became receptive.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> That would explain the scent glands but not necessarily the urine.You'dnk that if urine in the beard was such an important indicator, then many other species would do the same. I wonder, in the wild, is it the female that hunts for the male or is it the other way around.
> 
> Another interesting fact about San Clemente Island goats is that they are always "in season". The does can breed any time of year.


In @MellonFriend ’s wikipedia link it mentioned the Nile lechwe. “A unique form of marking is seen with the start of mating. The male bends his head to the ground and urinates on his throat and cheek hair. He then rubs his dripping beard on the female's forehead and rump.”
My guess is that there is a ton of information in the pee. It tells about the hormones, e.g. The goat bucks know where the ladies are at, in their cycle, by smelling their pee. It could also be a marking thi g, where the male makes the female “his own” (in the case of the Nile lechwe).


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

MellonFriend said:


> Well unfortunately this is were you've lost me 😌. I'm not 100% an evolutionist, so I just go with: "That's not the way it was designed" to answer that question in my mind. 😉


Fair enough and I seem to to have strayed a bit from the point of this thread. But it does make one wonder; why design an animal that has to pee on its face to survive.  Probably best for a different forum.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

MadHouse said:


> In @MellonFriend ’s wikipedia link it mentioned the Nile lechwe. “A unique form of marking is seen with the start of mating. The male bends his head to the ground and urinates on his throat and cheek hair. He then rubs his dripping beard on the female's forehead and rump.”
> My guess is that there is a ton of information in the pee. It tells about the hormones, e.g. The goat bucks know where the ladies are at, in their cycle, by smelling their pee. It could also be a marking thi g, where the male makes the female “his own” (in the case of the Nile lechwe).


Yes, I read that. Seems like a plausible idea. Pee on your beard and legs so the does are then marked with your scent after mating to warn off other bucks. Lets go with that until something better comes along.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

I want to congratulate the person who came up with the idea of calling them 'self anointing' animals.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Caileigh Jane Smith said:


> I want to congratulate the person who came up with the idea of calling them 'self anointing' animals.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

My does will go for the younger, but mature buck every time. They refuse to stand for my older Lamancha buck, even though he was their choice for several years. They prefer the younger Nubian. Shortly after I noticed them not standing for the poor guy, I discovered he had become sterile so there must be something to theory that the smell tells the doe something about the buck. I know in a lot of species, the females pick their mates by how masculine they are. Even humans are supposed to unconsciously be swayed by a mans smell. (fortunately they don't pee on their beards, though! LOL)


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

lottsagoats1 said:


> (fortunately they don't pee on their beards, though! LOL)


Why do you say that??? Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it is not happening.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Keep it clean now.


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## Caprinero (8 mo ago)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> View attachment 207456
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Mike - your buck is beautiful. I have 12 San Clemente Island goats, and am looking for one with a lot of white like yours. Where did your buck come from, and has he thrown any white offspring?


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

Hi Caprinero. My buck is local (Vancouver Island, Canada) from a farm with 100 to 150 goats. Yes, I have white and very light coloured offspring. Your best bet is probably to look at breeders in California.


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## Caprinero (8 mo ago)

Mike - so sorry for my belated reply to your kind response to my original query concerning your light colored SCIG’s. I typed a reply the day you responded , and simply hit ‘return’ - as opposed to ‘Post Reply’ 🤪, and only just noticed that it didn’t go out.

Do you know of any specific Breeders in California that have white SCIG’s? I know a few Breeders there (e.g. Mardi Rivetti), but none have white or light colored SCIG’s

Do you participate in the Canadian SFCP (Scrapie Flock Certification Program - Scrapie Canada If so, and if you would ever consider selling one of your white bucklings to me, I could do a legal import to
the USA.

Thanks again for responding previously, and I look forward to your reply to the above 

Best regards,

ken


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

Have you looked here? (it is probably terribly out of date)






Breeder List | scigoatfoundation







www.scigoatfoundation.org





I have not been in contact with any breeders in the US so I cannot speak to what they have. The white colour is much less common but not rare as far as I know. I have seen many pictures of white goats from US breeders in the past.

I do not participate in SFCP, and I would not consider selling to the US. There are not enough SCI goats in Canada as it is and I feel it would not be the best to send any back to the originating country.

Hope you find the buck you are looking for. Please keep us informed. Good luck.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

I hate having virtual things untidy - real things is a different story.

I have a need to finalize this thread. Austin has been sold.   
He's gone to another farm to make more San Clemente Island goat babies. This is a good thing and about time, but we will miss his majestic presence even if he did not like to be touched.


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

Awe… every time you look at that shelf you’ll miss him.
Are you going to get a new Buck or just enjoy your girls and the sheep?


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Aww, he certainly was majestic! I’ll miss seeing him on here!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Good buy Austin!
It was always great to see your pictures.
I hope you get a nice new herd!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

👍


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

I have no plans one way or the other, at this point, about getting another buck. I'll see what the next 6 months brings and then assess what I want to do. No new buck this year for sure.


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

He was handsome.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Well I hope he is happy, wherever he is. He always took good pictures. A nd your girls will enjoy the vacation
And may just get friendlier to you.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

Moers kiko boars said:


> girls will enjoy the vacation


There is no indication that any of my goats even noticed he is gone. Absolutly nothing has changed except now there is more room in the barn. And less hay is eaten. 
Maybe they are all just happy it was not them being dragged out of the barn.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Yep....more hay....more feed....more room Id be happy too!🤣😂🥰


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## Erin Link (Dec 12, 2018)

Howdy Mike! I know this is an older post, but my first two SCI goats were of the more uncommon color variations. Max was white and black and Coltrane was self black. Been raising SCI goats here in western WI since 2013. These are just a delight to raise, and fun to have a working herd grow over here. And the color and size variations can differ so much! 

While I believe my original groups' origins may have been Plimoth, I believe Maria Castro has some really fabulous examples of color variation of SCI goats at her place. Enjoy those goaties!


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

Delighted to hear from another SCI goat owner, Erin.
How big is your herd and what do you do with them (since you call it a working herd)?
Any chance of a picture of your black buck?


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## Erin Link (Dec 12, 2018)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> Delighted to hear from another SCI goat owner, Erin.
> How big is your herd and what do you do with them (since you call it a working herd)?
> Any chance of a picture of your black buck?


Yes, I keep a herd of usually between 25-50. I try to shine a light on their multi-purpose nature. I milk them for personal use and for goat milk soap. I raise extra males for meat as well as a newly started/experimental brush and grass clearing service. And I have learned how to tan hides and clean skulls to sell as well from the males that went into the food chain. I am also working on the Tepper bloodline with other breeders on preserving it. Plus just selling occasional breeding stock. And I do things with the SCI goats in public. Like winter holiday pictures with goats and a sleigh, or other events to talk about the goats and heritage breeds. 

Below is my self-black buck. I have one self-black doe that came from him and from a doe that is more of a cream and black. 

It's interesting. You can't see it really well in these pictures. (taking pictures of black goats is HARD!) But you can actually still see a more dark cape area on the self-black buck and his offspring. And the rest of him is essentially a deep mahogany red. I initially thought it was copper deficiency or even the hair getting sun bleached but it's believed to just be color trait I guess? (I also supplement copper bolus and don't see any other signs of copper deficiency) 

The first picture is the current doe that was a product of this sire. 

The second is the dam of this doe and the does is the offspring of Max the white and black buck. With with the black buck after.


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

How beautiful!  May I ask what self-black means?


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

I can see the red on the Buck. He is beautiful. I understand being cautious with the copper! Lol. Thats my 1st notification, when my black dapple starts turning a little red legged!😁 His coloration is really nice.


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## Erin Link (Dec 12, 2018)

Goatastic43 said:


> How beautiful!  May I ask what self-black means?


With the San Clemente Island Goat Breeders Association, the board and members are working on color and pattern guides. Below is a link to the proposed and currently approved reference guide. There will be a more comprehensive study released at an unknown date. I now one of the board members was working with genetics professor to establish this baseline. With SCI goats, new information can change descriptions like this as well. I believe at the moment, it is thought that we no longer see much of the light or white colored SCI goats as they were easy targets on the San Clemente Island for trophy hunters. There were even some colors on the island that is no longer seen in current herds. Anyway, the link will give a brief on what "self-black" is. 






SCI goats Home


An overview of the typical coloring patterns of this endangered livestock breed, along with some unique physical traits. SCI Goats




scigba.org


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Nice.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

Erin Link said:


> Yes, I keep a herd of usually between 25-50. I try to shine a light on their multi-purpose nature. I milk them for personal use and for goat milk soap. I raise extra males for meat as well as a newly started/experimental brush and grass clearing service. And I have learned how to tan hides and clean skulls to sell as well from the males that went into the food chain. I am also working on the Tepper bloodline with other breeders on preserving it. Plus just selling occasional breeding stock. And I do things with the SCI goats in public. Like winter holiday pictures with goats and a sleigh, or other events to talk about the goats and heritage breeds.
> 
> Below is my self-black buck. I have one self-black doe that came from him and from a doe that is more of a cream and black.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the pictures. I don't think I've seen an all black SCI goat before.

Wow, you really do have a working herd with lots of novel ideas. Is there much of a market for hides and skulls? Do you butcher your goats yourself?

How does the milk compare to other goat milk? I have heard that it is quite high in butterfat but I don't know if that is a breed trait or the result of just one goat.

I think you are EB Ranch. Did you do a podcast with the lady (too lazy to look up her name) who does goat podcasts?

I have 9 goats right now (and 3 sheep) that are basically pets though they are, very slowly, clearing blackberries.


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## Erin Link (Dec 12, 2018)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> Thanks for the pictures. I don't think I've seen an all black SCI goat before.
> 
> Wow, you really do have a working herd with lots of novel ideas. Is there much of a market for hides and skulls? Do you butcher your goats yourself?
> 
> ...


Yes, you are welcome. Coincidently I started a conversation with another SCIG breeder that has happened to have a number of self-black goats crop up. Hoping to find out more over time. 

Personally, I had the first goal of making the SCI goats pay for themselves, feed/upkeep etc. Then I dove into basing a farm business around them. It's been a good challenge!

I was interviewed on For The Love Of Goats a while back. I'll even put up a WI PBS episode of Around The Farm Table where EB Ranch Farmstead and the SCI goats are featured. It's just a fun show in general. *Friends Of Prairie Farm.* 

That is wonderful they are clearing blackberry bramble for you, yayyy! Have fun with your herd!!


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