# Advise on care for my 2 goats.



## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

First off, let me apologize for how long this is, I am new to posting on forums and want to be thorough on background so that I can hopefully get some input on what else _I should_ or _should not_ be doing to care for our kids. One of our goats is having trouble with his leg. Not sure what the cause is and there are not any local vets that will look at pet goats (only house calls for hurds). After reading some of the forums and articles online while trying to research it, I am not sure if the leg has to do with an injury or how we have been caring for the goats all along! Background: About 4 years ago a friend of mine gave me 2 nigerian dwarf/pygmy goats that had been abandoned by their mother. There was initially 3 of them which were born on MLK day, so we naturally named them Martin, Luther, & King, but King did not make it more than a couple days. My wife and I bottle fed Martin and Luther and they quickly became part of the family (They have never been around other goats except the mother for only a couple days, so I don't think they know they are goats, lol)! We got little advise on how to care for them, and what we did get was mostly from the sales rep at our local TSC. We live on a half acre parcel in town, and were initially going to let them have the run of the yard, but was told that many of the plants we have in our yard are toxic to goats, so we have them in a 10 x 40 cage. They typically get daily attention and love to be brushed and/or lay on our laps. They have always looked healthy and were active/playful, but recently one of the goats has started favoring his left hind leg. He can walk on it but when he walks it is obvious that he is favoring it, and when he stands still he will not put any pressure down on it. This has been occurring for about a month (+) and does not seem to be getting much better. We typically clean there cage out and trim hooves about every 2 weeks, but due to some circumstances we had not been keeping up with things for several months. When I checked their hooves about a month ago, they were very overgrown and had started getting a bunch of chalky *********** up in them (I am assuming this was the start of hoof rot). I trimmed the hooves and scraped out all the white stuff, but it has been a month and no change in leg. From what I read in several threads this could be due to poor nutrition or inadequate copper intake, or even tetanus? The goat in question is black and white, but has always had a slightly red tenge to his black fur that seems to have gotten a little more pronounced as he got older (Not sure if this is a natural red tenge or if this is from lack of copper?) They are both weathers and were castrated very young (before we got them), so we have been worried about Urinary Calculi. We feed them twice daily. They get a flake of hay (oat or orchard mix) in the morning and a cup and a half of grain (wheat and rolled outs mix) with a pinch of goat minerals, ammonium chloride, and kelp in it every evening. We do not feed them any alfalfa or high protein grain mixes in fear of creating urinary stones. They also have access to a cobalt salt lick. Other than that we occasionally feed them grape vines and leaves from our maple tree. They got their shots when we first got them and then again at 1 year, but have not given additional shots as they are not in contact with any other animals other than our cats. We are really attached to these guys, so any advise on the leg issue or on additional care for them would be greatly appreciated! Thank you again for reading!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Sounds you’re being a good goat parent! Have you looked between the toes? Is any part of his leg hot to the touch? Is there any bad smell? Has it been really muddy? I recommend getting some Kopertox to put between his toes on the problem hoof for three days in a row. Just squirt some in there. It will help dry out any hoof scald or hoof rot you may be encountering. If he improves in those three days, then you can relax.


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

Thank you for your reply! 
It has not been wet or muddy but I purchased a new property about 6 months ago and my son has been staying at the old place taking care of the animals (I use that term loosely with my son.) He had not been cleaning the cage out on a regular basis and I let the hooves go about a month and a half before I came down to trim them. The hooves were long and had curled under the feet creating a pocket of poop and dirt. I trimmed them and found some white powdery stuff in the cracks where the hard outside separated from the soft inside. There was no puss or smell, just white powdery stuff. I trimmed them again 2 weeks later as they had already grown out again and were starting to curl, I did not find any more white powder or anything that looked abnormal, but he is still favoring the leg. I was watching him this weekend and it looked like his hip bone was lifting higher on that side in comparison to the other when he was walking. I palpitated the leg and hip area and he did not yell or pull away, in fact, quite the opposite as he usually pulls away when I grab his legs to check the hoofs but this time he just stood there and let me mover it around. I know this sounds crazy but he came up to me several times and leaned his back hip/leg against me hard almost like he wanted me to look at it (but maybe I am just reading something into it)? My concern is that this is not something that is just going to heal itself, or that is being caused by an underlying problem. I ordered some stuff called "Hoof and heal" and it is supposed to be delivered today. Not sure if that is similar to Kopertox, but figured I would give it a try before I take him to a vet. I think the closest one that will see him is almost 2 hours away at Davis university. I was very surprised that there are so many people with pet goats, but so few vets who see them or know anything about them!


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Do you copper bolus them? How frequently if you do? Can you get pics of them? I think you need to make a few more post replies to be able to post a pic.

So the only mineral they get is a small pinch of top dressing daily? They need a good loose mineral available at all times. They will lick when they need it. If you give your location we can help you choosing a good mineral. Replamin gel is an excellent one to use if they are deficient... and a rusty coat sounds deficient. What do their tails look like?

Do you have fecals done on them and worm if needed? I know you said you have no local vet but two goats IS a herd. . Just maybe not what the vet might like it to be called lol! If the vet will not even run a fecal if you bring it in... there are labs you can mail them to and have done.

On the foot. What did you do other than cleanin out the gunk for hoof rot? Any cleanser type stuff? Have you checked the foot for any foreign objects and cuts? Get all up in between the hooves too. Oops i see you answered part of this. Did you really push and move it around good on his leg and hips...not to hurt but to see if he balked at anything? Inside and out? Not just be super gentle like a rub but really feel everything is what i mean.

Did you look for large animal vets? If you have farms with livestock there stop amd ask what vet they ise and how they like them. That may help too.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

fishman said:


> ...I ordered some stuff called "Hoof and heal" and it is supposed to be delivered today. Not sure if that is similar to Kopertox, but figured I would give it a try before I take him to a vet. I think the closest one that will see him is almost 2 hours away at Davis university. I was very surprised that there are so many people with pet goats, but so few vets who see them or know anything about them!


Due to you seeing the white powdery substance and the fact that the hooves were packed and dirty, I highly suspect hoof rot or scald. Try the hoof and heel and see what happens. No need to worry yourself sick! I know several people who have used that with success.


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

We live in the California central valley (almost afraid to post that anymore. lol) 

I have not done a fecal on them since we first got them. They did not find any parasites and since they have not been around other animals I did not figured it was not necessary. I also give them diatomaceous earth in their feed a couple times a week as well just as a preventative. I called one of the local large animal vets and they said they would do the fecal for me. They also said their new vet might be willing to see Marty if I bring him in to their main Vet facility, they are supposed to call me back to let me know. 

I did move the leg and hip around to see if he had a reaction to it but did not get that aggressive with it. I did not see any obvious signs of problems with the hoof or leg, but I did not check good between the toes. I am going down this afternoon to apply the Hoof and Heel and will check him again then. We need to bring them up to the new property but I have not constructed a cage for them yet. This is going to be more challenging as it is a 10 acre orchard and there is no fenced in yard around the house to put the cage in. There seems to be lots of kit foxes on the property which is worrisome as they have already dispatched a few of our cats! Supposably foxes can dig and also climb anything a cat can, so we are considering lining a walkway around the cage with pavers and enclosing the top of the cage as well. Hopefully that will keep them out!

I have not given them any additional copper as both the minerals and cobalt lick say they have copper in them, should I be giving additional? I don't want to end up poisoning them. 

I have not put out free minerals because Marty has always been a glutton, even as a baby he would eat non-stop until he just about explodes! He kept getting diarrhea and would act sick whenever I let him eat like that, so we monitor how much he gets pretty close. I was afraid to put out the minerals with free access because he would eat the entire bowl in one sitting and it says on the package that they can get poisoned if you feed too much. The brand we have been using is Manna Pro Goat Minerals. The amount we give on the top dressing is measured out per their recommendation for his weight. The amount of Ammonium Chloride we give is measured out per the amount the University of Colorado recommended in a study on urinary calculi I read. We started giving them dried black kelp because the friend who gave us the goats said he had heard it was good for them. So, we really have tried to keep them healthy, just don't really know if what we are doing is correct. This site seems to have more information than anything else I have found, so I am really glad I found it. Thank you all for giving your input and for sharing your knowledge! 

It is funny, when we first entertained the idea of having goats for pets we had thought they were these indestructible animals that eat anything, including tin cans, and climb everything with agility. The more and more I learn it seems they are much more fragile than expected. Many of the plants that are on our property seem to be poisonous to them and they can actually be quite clumsy at times, but even with all the issues they are part of the family and we love them! 

I will take some pictures this afternoon and try to post them tomorrow.

Thanks again!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

all good questions and advice. I do want to add that alfalfa is fine to feed and can help prevent UC. As a matter of fact as long as both are in good flesh, I would ween them off feed all together and feed hay and alfalfa along with safe browse. Keeping the diet at a 2.5:1 Ca: phos will help reduce UC chances.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Ok.

Put a cup of mineral out a week. They will stop when they do not need more. But keep the dish filled. Humidity or wet can make them not lick it. So make sure there is not a crust on top. Mineral is not the same as a feed or grain. Sometimes you will think they are eatin none and other times they eat it like crazy... that is ok. They will only take what they need. At first they most likely will use more so expect it.

Yes they most likely do need to be coper bolused. Selenium/vit e gel as well. Or use replamin gel. Most of the Us is very dificient in both. You still may need give copper but maybe not as often. The loader dose for replamin is... once a day for five days then once a week after. 5cc per goat. It is very hard to poison them with a bolus because of the way it works. Unless you are givin it every month, which you do not do. The rods in the bolus attach to the stomach lining and dissolved very slowly.

Fecals at least every four to six months is a good thing to do. Do you check their FAMACHA? If not.. google it and start doing it weekly. It is a tool with wormy goats. If their lids are light take a fecal in to see what you need worm for. Then choose the right wormer for the job. So e wormer do need be used at higher than the recommended dosage though.

De does nothing for a worm load. Nothin at all. So no sense in using that on anything imo. All it does is make more dumb dust for them and us to breathe.

For the AC. If their diet is balanced you may not need give it daily. Once a week might be fine. But always keep it on hand. Our bucks get alfalfa pellet, hay and browse and they have never had a problem. We have a wether that had grit/stones before we knew what we were doin. Our two wethers get alfalfa pellet and a tinny bit of grain in their rations. They are fine because it is balanced.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

@mariarose


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

First of all, welcome to TGS. You have found your way to the very best place on the entire globe to learn about your goats.

Second of all, goats are the exact opposite of indestructible here in the States, because they did not evolve here, and our continent supplies a lot they don't need, and not a lot they do. So we get to do a lot of tweaking and twiddling. But when we get it right, goats are some of the best pets/companions/livestock to have.

I recommend you do a LOT of reading here. The amount of knowledge contained in these forums is mindblowing.

You got a nice case of hoof rot. Keep them trimmed, keep them clean, keep them coppered up. If you can get some LA 200 from the feed store and a syringe and large gauge needle, you can trim the hooves, scrub them clean with an old tooth brush, and squirt LA 200 directly onto the hooves to help clean out the infection. LA 200 is a very common antibiotic, but California is touchy about antibiotics, so I don't know if you can get it or not. If you can't, then Koppertox can help. I'm unfamiliar with Hoof and Heel. I mean, I don't know the ingredients or anything like that. I'm not saying it is bad. Copper sulphate is often sold for pond cleaning. If you make up a solution of copper sulphate and water, and put that on hooves, it will stain them a very pretty blue, but also get to work on hoof rot. Depending on your priorities, that may be more important than the blue hoof colour, but I do admit to enjoying the blue!

Goats and dogs have similar hip structures. If your vet would be willing to look at the hip problem the way he/she would for a dog, you may get an answer there, at least to know for certain if the hip is out of socket or not.

Depending on how long the goat has been favouring that leg, it may have led to hip problems because of overcompensation. Heat may help relax contrasted muscles. Heat and massaging may do even more. But you need to know that something isn't actually out of joint.

Please consider giving their minerals free choice. If your one goat is gobbling it up, then believe me, he truly needs it.

Manna Pro will definitely need the following minerals supplemented. Selenium. Iodine. Copper. Possibly zinc.

May I suggest ordering Sweetlix MeatMaker instead? I know it is more expensive, but it is a truly superiour mineral mix.
Here is a link from Jeffers. This is the one you want, not the one with Rumensin
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/sweetlix-goat-mineral-18lb




fishman said:


> We live in the California central valley (almost afraid to post that anymore. lol)




May I ask why you don't want to say that? We have no anti-Cali bias here, let me assure you.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Welcome to the forum!:cowboy:
Very good advice all around. There are a couple of forum members that get their lab work done at UC Davis. Your are not alone. We have all been helped, and helped others. Mariarose has a very good thread;
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/excellent-minerals-you-know-how-i-love-me-those-minerals.194612/
that we all keep up with.


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

I went down last night to check on Marty. He seems to be getting a little worse. There was noticeable heat that could be felt on the hoof, joint, and hip area. His tail was down and he kept standing with that leg pushed against the shop fan for their cage, which is unusual as he usually does not go near it, just figured it must feel good due to the heat in the leg? He did perk up several times and tried to spar with Lu but was very unsteady and fell a couple of times. I saturated his hooves both under and in between with the hoof and heel, but there's not really any visible signs of an issue as far as I can tell. I called the TSC to see if they had any LA200 but was told that CA changed the regs on antibiotics being sold over the counter about 2 years ago. I am going to call today to see the vet will agree to see him as he seems to be getting worse and there is so much heat in the leg. I posted some pictures, one of tail as well as someone had asked for possible copper deficiency. 
Thanks again for all the info and advise!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good call, seeing a vet.

Let us know what they say.

California law:
Have the vet come out to your place, they will look over all your goats and fill out a paper, which you sign, they will ask questions and talk to you about your herd. You have to pay for it, but, it is good for 1 year. 
So if you have issues within that year, you can get RX from the vets with no issues.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

From the picture showing the tail: I see Copper (shortened tail hair and wispy longer tail hair seemingly parted in the middle) and also Selenium (tail bent over to the side beginning about middle way of the length of the tail) deficiency signs.

Wishing everything goes well at the vet office. It's fantastic you will be taking him in to be seen.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh, OK, gotcha. 

Let us know what the vet says.


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

The vet said he cannot see Marty till Monday afternoon. I tried to find another but the only ones who would see him would require me to drive over an hour which I feel would be more stress on him than it is worth. A friend of mine said she had some LA 200 that I could give Marty. I went down last night to give him a shot but there was no heat in the leg, so I decided to wait. I would have just given him the antibiotic but the bottle she gave me was 3 years old and had not been refrigerated, so I figured the risk was not worth it since there did not appear to be any heat in the leg when I got there. I will check him again this evening. The more I am watching him I think that this was due to an injury and not to his hoofs, and his hip might be out of socket. His hip bone sticks up more on that side and the motion of the leg pivots out in a circular motion when he walks. Lu seems to be much more aggressive towards him and is side ramming him hard enough to knock him down. I may need to separate them until I can get Marty's leg healed. Not looking forward to that as the last time we tried to separate them they yelled nonstop for days until we put them back together. The good news is that the primary focus of the vet that is coming out is goat herds and seems to have a good reputation. He also helps with caring for the goats at the local zoo's. He has agreed to check out both goats and the enclosure so that he can certify a vet relationship to the state so that he can write prescriptions when none emergencies come up. He is only charging $50 extra to drive down to see him, which I think is well worth it since his office is over 45 miles away, and well worth not having to put Marty through the added stress! He also services the town where we purchased our new property, so that is a bonus once we move them over! 
Thank you guys again for all the advice and help! I will keep you informed of what he has to say.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

fishman said:


> A friend of mine said she had some LA 200 that I could give Marty. I went down last night to give him a shot but there was no heat in the leg, so I decided to wait.


 LA 200 was recommended to be squirted between the hooves to help heal up the infection going on in the hooves. It was not suggested to be given as an injection whatsoever.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up: 

Still have the vet look at the goat.
Even if it is Monday.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

fishman said:


> I may need to separate them until I can get Marty's leg healed.


Take away the 'may' in that sentence, right away.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

Welcome to the forum and he is a very cute little goat! Good luck with him you’re getting great advice this is a good place to learn. I hope he started to feel better over the weekend and the vet helps you out on Monday


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

Sorry this is so long again, but thought the details of the experience might help someone else who is having a similar issues:
Vet came out yesterday evening. After describing to him what had occured and watching him stand/walk for a few minutes he thought that the hip was dislocated, then we put him in the stanch and he manipulated the leg for a few minutes and said he was not sure. He felt it was an injury and not directly due to the hoofs. Said it may have been dislocated and worked its way back in, or could have just been an injury from being butted by Lu so hard. He said that he saw some atrophy in the muscles on that leg, so felt that he must have had the injury longer than a month. There was not a significant amount of heat in the joints but had some swelling. He went ahead and gave him an injection of Nuflor just in case there was an infection and Banamine as an anti-inflammatory, he also gave me some Meloxicam pills to give once a day for inflammation. Marty went crazy when he gave him the Nuflor injection, started yelling and shaking none stop for about 5 minutes, at one point he started swaying and fell over while continuing to yell. I asked the vet if he just killed my goat, and he just laughed and said this is pretty typical for that injection (said it is like giving a child a penicillin injection, stings like hell)! He suggested not putting Marty and Lu back together until Marty's leg had either healed or we had a better idea of what is going on. I told him I did not understand why Lu's personality had changed the last few months and he was being so aggressive towards Marty. He said that because I spent so much time with them they probably saw me as the dominant and then I was gone for several months so they have to work out the pecking order and establish who is going to be the dominant. He felt that is probably how Marty got hurt. He checked for parasites and said they were clear. Said he did not see direct signs of copper deficiency but gave them a bolis anyway, and gave me a few extra to use every 6 months. He also suggested that I stop using the loose minerals once they are gone and switch over to a trace mineral block with selenium and copper in it. Said to continue using the ammonium nitrate and also to start spraying a little bit of a salt water brine solution on the hay so they will increase their water intake, said it would dilute the urine and decrease the likelihood of calculi. He said if Marty was not making progress in a week to call him and he will refer me to Davis University for ex-rays and to get their input, said he could do them in his office but can't do the surgery so said it is probably just better to take him up there if he is not getting better. Surprisingly the fee was way less than I expected. (dance) Considering he drove almost 45 minutes to my house and spent another hour of time there, plus all the meds, I figured $235 was more than fair! Marty was walking a little better this morning, but not a significant improvement. Keeping my fingers crossed that he makes a speedy recovery!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

What is the ammonium nitrate for?

Your vet is mistaken about the loose minerals. very mistaken

I hope he has a quick recovery now.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

mariarose said:


> What is the ammonium nitrate for?
> 
> Your vet is mistaken about the loose minerals. very mistaken
> 
> I hope he has a quick recovery now.


I think the OP meant ammonium chloride.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I think the OP meant ammonium chloride.


That is what I thought, but I really don't want to assume here, because one of those things I'm familiar with, and one of those things could be a deadly poison for all I know.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Prayers sent.


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I think the OP meant ammonium chloride.


Yes, sorry, I meant ammonium chloride.
Marty seems a slight bit better, he is putting a little weight on the leg but still not moving around a whole lot! Both goats are not happy about being seperated, keep ramming the fence in between them. I am sure they will get use to it soon!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:great:


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

This morning Marty's poop was all clumped together instead of pellets. I am assuming this is due to all the antibiotics he has been given. Is there anything I should give him to help with that before it gets worse, or should I not worry about it?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

fishman said:


> This morning Marty's poop was all clumped together instead of pellets. I am assuming this is due to all the antibiotics he has been given. Is there anything I should give him to help with that before it gets worse, or should I not worry about it?


Give probios.

Check FAMACHA score.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

mariarose said:


> Your vet is mistaken about the loose minerals. very mistaken


Yes. Don't take away the loose minerals!

I would recommend this one: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-wind-rain-storm-all-season-75-complete?cm_vc=-10005

Manna pro goat mineral is not a very good mineral unfortunately.

Goats have soft tongues so they can't get enough out of a block. Loose minerals are easy to eat rather than licking at a block for ages and only getting a lot of salt and a tiny bit of copper/other minerals.

This is good advice:



mariarose said:


> Please consider giving their minerals free choice. If your one goat is gobbling it up, then believe me, he truly needs it.
> 
> Manna Pro will definitely need the following minerals supplemented. Selenium. Iodine. Copper. Possibly zinc.
> 
> ...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.

Fortified vit B complex and probiotics daily for a little while, may help.


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

It has been over a week now since the vet came and Marty is not doing much better. Both him and Lu have settled down from being separated and are not ramming the fence or yelling all night anymore. I am still not convinced that his hip is not out of the socket as he is still holding it stiff and moving it in circular motions when walking. when standing he holds it stiff and back so that there is no weight on it. We are still giving him the Meloxicam pills and probiotics. His poop is still clumpy off and on but seems to be getting better. He does not like the probiotics in his grain and barely eats it. I had to start halving the grain so that I could give him the Meloxicam pills at one feeding and the probiotics at another, otherwise he picks the pills and spits them out! He is laying down most of the day in a whole he dug and not moving around much, I am concerned that the leg is going to atrophy even more. Not really sure what to do at this point, if he is not any better by next Monday (2 weeks since vet.) I am going to make an appointment to take him up to UC Davis to get x-rays and a second opinion. I really hate that he has this injury that looks like it may be permanent, and feel really guilty for not giving him the attention he needed while I was away. I also am very angry with my son (who is an adult) for not taking proper care of things and doing the bare minimum while we were gone. The vet indicated that he thought the injury occured over a month ago and my son did not bring it to my attention till then, so he was obviously not paying much attention!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds like you should make an appointment with UC Davis now.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I would get a xray done now, do not wait, that should of been done first, to see what is going on there.

Time is running out, if it is a semi new injury, the longer you wait, nothing can be done for him after a certain time frame.

If something is dislocated, it should be braced in a way, so it won't allow the bad area to move. 
It must be in place and not moveable so it can heal for quite a long time.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Dont be too hard on son. Sitters never keep our animals like we do and they do not notice things like we do.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How are things?


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

I took Marty up to UC Davis on Wednesday, and did not get the best news. They said it looked he has a Cruciate Ligament Rupture, but also found lots of arthritis in the joints. They said he may have a disease called CAE virus that may have caused the arthritis, and ran a blood test for it, but will not get results for 2 weeks. The vet said there is nothing they can do for him but give him pain management. Kept him on the Meloxicam for inflammation and added Gabapentin for pain. Did not recommend surgery for the ligament due to the arthritis in the other joints, said it would put too much strain on his other joints while healing.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Very sorry to hear that! Wishing for the best!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so very sorry.


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

We got a call from the vet and Marty did test positive for CAE. They said that if he was a herd goat they would suggest putting him down due to it being so contagious, but since he is a backyard pet they recommended trying the medications while keeping him separated from Lu to see if the ligament and arthritis settle down and can be managed with meds, if not she said the most humane thing would be to put him down. He is doing some better, but not substantial. She suggested trying CBD or Cannabis oil with the current meds to help with the inflammation and pain. Said they have seen some success with that and gave me the information for a vet who is doing a study to set dosages for CBD/THC in goats. 
They also suggested getting Lu tested, but said in all likelihood he will have it as well! We wondered if this was anything we could have contributed too but they said with the amount of arthritis he has it was very likely they were exposed either at birth or shortly their after, as it is very common to be transmitted through milk. Since the mother had abandoned them at birth we were getting the milk we used to bottle feed with from a goat that had a still born from our friends ranch. Now that I think about it that goat had huge joints and limped as she walked. Our friend told us it was from an injury but I am thinking she probably had CAE herself. The vet said that is why they suggest getting any goat you are going to purchase or bring on your property tested prior to doing so. I hate that this has happened, Marty and Lu are part of my family and my wife and I are very attached to them. They have brought a lot of joy to us watching and spending time with them, it is going to be very hard if we have to put them down! The only thing I can say is that we gave them a chance at life they would not have had if we had not agreed to take them on when the mother abandoned them and have given them a spoiled life compared to most goats!
Thank you all for the help, comments, and opinions. This is a great site full of kind people with a wealth of knowledge!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

So sorry to hear that news. If the pain is being managed, enjoy him as long as he is comfortable. 

If you ever get more bottle kids, you could pasteurize the milk on your stove, they kills any cae germs.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm so sorry your dealing with this. CAE is a brutal disease. The later stages are horrible. I'd be interested in what you learn from the group doing the CBD study if you go that route. Sometimes the quality of life is the hardest decisions we have to make and my heart goes out to you.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I am so sorry! Completely understand him being a pet and not at risk of infecting your whole herd, wanting to use painkillers to help him out, but sometimes we do have to take a step back and look at why we are keeping the animal alive-for his benefit, or for ours? CAE is a horrible disease, and unfortunately, there can be a lot going on internally as well as externally, such as spinal lesions, etc. that are a lot worse than the limp he has. 
Believe me, I know what you’re going through. I lost my best and favorite doe to this disease a few years ago, and losing her really took the wind out of my sails in terms of raising goats.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug:


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm so sorry for the news about Marty, how is he doing now with a few weeks of pain management behind him?

I wouldn't assume Lu is positive, I would get him tested - unless you've seen swollen joints or signs of arthritis? Either way, CAE goats can live quite a long time, some become very symptomatic and others don't. And some don't contract it, for whatever reason, their immune system is better.

It's definitely not spread easily by wethers (I don't know why UC Davis said that...), even if you had a herd, CAE wouldn't be passed from Marty to others unless you shared injection needles or other body fluids between him and a young kid. It's just passed from positive does to kids via colostrum/milk. It is rarely contracted by adult goats.

These diseases are heart-wrenching and very tough, keep you chin up.


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

Thank you for the info and kind words. Marty _was_ doing some better with the meds and was even starting to play again, but then we got a cold front with lots of rain that has lasted for over 2 weeks. The cold and rain definitely affects him as now he just wants to lay on his wooden spool under the heat lamp we put out for him. He gets up to eat but is never putting any weight on the back leg that was injured. My main concern is that the leg has started atrophying a lot, it is noticeably smaller than the other hind leg. I have not been able to get the vet out to test Lu, and just have not had time to take him in. Lu is not showing any signs of the disease, but has started acting very aggressive. I have not been able to put him back in with Marty as he starts relentlessly ramming him in the side and knocking him down. He has even gotten aggressive towards my granddaughter, and chases her around butting and knocking her down as well, something he has never done before!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

fishman said:


> Thank you for the info and kind words. Marty _was_ doing some better with the meds and was even starting to play again, but then we got a cold front with lots of rain that has lasted for over 2 weeks. The cold and rain definitely affects him as now he just wants to lay on his wooden spool under the heat lamp we put out for him. He gets up to eat but is never putting any weight on the back leg that was injured. My main concern is that the leg has started atrophying a lot, it is noticeably smaller than the other hind leg. I have not been able to get the vet out to test Lu, and just have not had time to take him in. Lu is not showing any signs of the disease, but has started acting very aggressive. I have not been able to put him back in with Marty as he starts relentlessly ramming him in the side and knocking him down. He has even gotten aggressive towards my granddaughter, and chases her around butting and knocking her down as well, something he has never done before!


Lu needs another goat friend to help him get rid of his excess energy. I know its hard with Marty having a bum leg and all but Lu is not top of the food chain and needs to be taken down a notch or two. Im worried for your grandchild. Please try using a spray bottle to see if he stops or you might have to get a hotshot but once he thinks being aggressive is ok he could really hurt someone. Packgoats.com has a great video on youtube that has some great training methods that can be used for any goat not just pack goats. Good luck!


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

Thank you, I will take a look at the videos! I am not sure about getting another goat though with the CAE, would not want to expose another animal to that!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

fishman said:


> Thank you, I will take a look at the videos! I am not sure about getting another goat though with the CAE, would not want to expose another animal to that!


CAE is really only contagious from milk to very young kids. So adding another goat to a wether would be no issue, the new goat would not be nursing from your wether.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:up:


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## fishman (Oct 7, 2019)

Just an update: I was finally able to get Lu tested and to my surprise, he tested negative for CAE. How that happened considering the were from the same mom, fed the same milk and shared bottles when young, is beyond me, but welcome news! We are looking for another nigerian dwarf as a companion for him.
As for Marty, he is doing some better with the meds. He still does not put much weight on the back leg but is standing and walking more, and occasionally even rears up and play fights with Lu through the cage. We are still putting a heat lamp out for him at night, even though the temperatures are only in the mid 30's due to it being so foggy and damp (feels much colder!) We tried to turn the light off a couple of nights but he yelled all night and his joints seemed much stiffer the next morning so we decided to keep putting the light on for him until the nights get back up into the 50's.
The UC Davis vet called and said that she was unable to provide the information on the CBD due to some policy changes and pressure from admin. Surprising since pot is legal for recreational use for humans in CA, but apparently not for medical purposes for goats! Crazy CA lol :bonk:
The vet did recommend acupuncture, stating that they have seen good success in goats for pain management with it. I was not able to find a vet in our area who would do acupuncture on a goat (only horses), so I scheduled an appointment at UC Davis during my x-mas break, but had to cancel it due to my stupidity! I purchased a RZR for my granddaughter and rolled it showing off, which completely threw my back out and injured my shoulder, I was flat on my back during most of the break! (embarrassed)
Anyway, I will be rescheduling the appointment and giving the acupuncture a try. Has anyone else had experience with that for goats?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm so glad to read this update, I'm sorry I don't have any guidance for you on the acupuncture.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good to hear.


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