# Australian Shepherds or German Shepherds



## NubianFan

Can either of these breeds be used successfully as livestock guardian dogs? Or do you have to have a Pyrenees or Anatolian or some of the more known guardian dogs?
If anyone has any experience using either as a guardian dog tell me your experience.


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## freedomstarfarm

Both Australian and German Shepherds are herding dogs. They can work fine with the goats but are not LGD's and imo would not be good to leave int he fields with the goats al the time.


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## fishin816

SURE! If you want these dogs chasing the goats around all day and stress the very much. So no you should go with a Pyrenees or Anatolian....


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## Scottyhorse

fishin816 said:


> SURE! If you want these dogs chasing the goats around all day and stress the very much. So no you should go with a Pyrenees or Anatolian....


Trained right, I highly doubt that they would chase the goats ALL day.


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## kccjer

I'm going to be just a little different on my opinion here. Australian Shepherds are extreme herd dogs...they will herd anything, anytime, anywhere. German Shepherds, while originally bred as herding dogs, were also bred as guard dogs. In all the GS I've owned and been around, not a single one had the single minded herding instinct of the Aussie and I don't remember ever being herded by one either. They are extremely good guard dogs. Not sure if they would be good LGD's or not. It would take a special temperament and some training, but I think a GS could be used as LGD.


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## NubianFan

Fishin I asked because the only personal experience I have had with these dogs is one individual that was dropped off at my house and I cared for over three days time before my dad gave him away to a neighborhood man. This dog did exactly what I told him to do. I have to be honest in all my life I have not had a dog mind as well as this one did. He didn't bother anything. He didn't bother my goats or my chickens or my ducks or goose. He didn't bother my cats. He certainly didn't herd anything. Believe me I am still kicking myself for not telling my dad sooner that I wanted to keep him. I have known a few people who had aussies and to be honest I never saw any of them herd anything. I have seen border collies obsessively herd things and I have seen a quarter horse who would worry calves or goats to death trying to "cut" them.
I have a German shepherd now and I have had German shepherds in the past. When I say LGD I mean something different than what most people think of as an LGD I don't want an animal that lives in the pastures with the goats and protects them, I want something that patrols the entire place. I have so many different animals in different pastures/pens that I would need a herd of livestock guards to do that. I want something that has sense enough to know to run off predators be they human or animals predators and I am willing to have more than one of these dogs. Like a pair. Right now my German shepherd will run off predators if they are in the yard but she has no loyalty to the other animals at all, so if a predator is more towards the back and eat a few chickens she isn't concerned. My goats pens, all three of the pens are essentially in the yard. they are my biggest concern obviously, the horses can pretty much fend for themselves, and I hate losing chickens and ducks but I am not nearly as attached to them as I am the goats. Between Mom and dad and myself we have over 56 acres here at this homestead place so our yards are not small.


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## KW Farms

Those two breeds have been bred for such different purposes...pretty much the opposite of a LGD breed. I wouldn't ever consider using one in place of a LGD. You could end up with a real disaster.


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## KW Farms

If you want something that will live outside of the goat pen and guard, they would be fine for that, but I wouldn't trust those breeds to stay in with the goats without supervision.


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## NubianFan

Yeah unless it was a donkey or llama I really don't want anything living inside the pens with them. that is just my preference, I guess I just don't trust a predator to live in the pen with an animal. I know lots of people do it successfully but I also know my luck.
I am hesitant to even get a guard donkey because they can do serious damage too if they are not the right donkey that loves the goats. 
The pen the goats are in now is literally about 20 steps from my front door. Then I have two in the back of my yard area. Not in the yard but around the perimeter.


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## fishin816

NubianFan said:


> Fishin I asked because the only personal experience I have had with these dogs is one individual that was dropped off at my house and I cared for over three days time before my dad gave him away to a neighborhood man. This dog did exactly what I told him to do. I have to be honest in all my life I have not had a dog mind as well as this one did. He didn't bother anything. He didn't bother my goats or my chickens or my ducks or goose. He didn't bother my cats. He certainly didn't herd anything. Believe me I am still kicking myself for not telling my dad sooner that I wanted to keep him. I have known a few people who had aussies and to be honest I never saw any of them herd anything. I have seen border collies obsessively herd things and I have seen a quarter horse who would worry calves or goats to death trying to "cut" them.
> I have a German shepherd now and I have had German shepherds in the past. When I say LGD I mean something different than what most people think of as an LGD I don't want an animal that lives in the pastures with the goats and protects them, I want something that patrols the entire place. I have so many different animals in different pastures/pens that I would need a herd of livestock guards to do that. I want something that has sense enough to know to run off predators be they human or animals predators and I am willing to have more than one of these dogs. Like a pair. Right now my German shepherd will run off predators if they are in the yard but she has no loyalty to the other animals at all, so if a predator is more towards the back and eat a few chickens she isn't concerned. My goats pens, all three of the pens are essentially in the yard. they are my biggest concern obviously, the horses can pretty much fend for themselves, and I hate losing chickens and ducks but I am not nearly as attached to them as I am the goats. Between Mom and dad and myself we have over 56 acres here at this homestead place so our yards are not small.


I was just meaning from my experience with my aussie. She cant be trained she barks and chases the goats. I was just thinking of like a Pyrenees that would live with the goats. Either of the dogs would most definetly charge a predator. They would put up a fight too. I was just using a refrence from my experience with my Aussie. But i guess they would do fine if they were in another pen. If you do choose an Aussie for protection please dont get minis. They couldnt handle something larger than them. A standard Aussie woould be better for protection.


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## NubianFan

yeah I wouldn't get a mini for that but I might have a mini and biggie  someday. All this is a ways down the road anyway guys, I guess I just like to find out stuff before I jump into it. I really have a full house of yappers right now.


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## motdaugrnds

*..not sure what you're wanting..*

What I'm hearing is that your homestead is about 56 acres in size and that you have individual pens inside that for your different animals. Do you not have a fence around the entire homestead?

I understand some LGDs enjoy roaming over large acreage keeping intruders out. Getting a couple of those (socializing it with your current dog), even if you do not keep it "inside" your goat pen, would work fine.


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## NubianFan

There is a fence around the whole thing it is fenced and cross fenced, also a county road runs through it and divides the property so each side is fenced individually.


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## bonfire2013

I've never had a German Shepard so im not sure about that but they are very smart so i guess as long as they aren't super hyper they would be good.  

Our neighbor got an Australian Shepard puppy (ive always wanted one so bad) and was going to use her to herd cattle. He got her when she was 4 months and would ride her on the golf cart with him everyday and he would move the cattle with the golf cart then chase them in the gate on foot. Same schedule and place morning and night and he would bring her. Without any training, just her watching him, when she was 6 months he just had her untied, and she jumped off the golf cart and put them all in the right spot and worked them like a champ. One stubborn steer even tried to put his head down to her and she even knew to nip him on the nose and turn him around it was amazing.  Now she's 8 months and pretty small actually, and there were coyotes in the back field and she went crazy and chased them off by herself I always know when to be on the look out when i hear her. 

On another hand, I have a Rottweiler that I wouldn't dare leave him alone around the animals, he's good to the goats and horses but has killed one too many chickens for my liking, and I just don't trust his willpower haha. He has no relationship with any of the other animals, he doesn't even like them, but is an awesome guard dog anyway. If a hawk or buzzard comes too close to the chicken pen or even the goat pen he will bark and chase it until it leaves. All the smaller sized animals are on about 10 acres surrounding the house and he keeps it clear easy. Stray cats, dogs, coyotes, foxes, big predator birds, and he is the best mouse killing dog I've ever had lol. So in a way he's not really trying to protect the livestock but more protecting us or his territory. But it works for us.  

Im not too sure about having 60+ acres for them to cover but i guess its not impossible. I hope you find a good match for you. And we will need some cute pics if you do get a new baby.


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## motdaugrnds

*...fencing and cross-fencing...*

Not sure how you would fix it so a dog can get into all those divided fences.............


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## NubianFan

Yeah exactly


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## milkmaid

How about both in one crazy, cute little package! 










Seriously, I think the very best choice for your needs would still be a _real_ LGD.
If you have your heart set on one of those two breeds, I think either would work, if the individual had the right personality and you train it firmly. Dogs just naturally chase off predators. For human "predators", a German would definitely be better IMHO. :2cents:


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## NubianFan

Before my German Shepherd was stolen and I got her back. She would have invited people inside the house, fixed them iced tea and said help yourself to the valuables, since I got her back, she is much less trusting of anyone who ismt family.


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## CAjerseychick

NubianFan said:


> Fishin I asked because the only personal experience I have had with these dogs is one individual that was dropped off at my house and I cared for over three days time before my dad gave him away to a neighborhood man. This dog did exactly what I told him to do. I have to be honest in all my life I have not had a dog mind as well as this one did. He didn't bother anything. He didn't bother my goats or my chickens or my ducks or goose. He didn't bother my cats. He certainly didn't herd anything. Believe me I am still kicking myself for not telling my dad sooner that I wanted to keep him. I have known a few people who had aussies and to be honest I never saw any of them herd anything. I have seen border collies obsessively herd things and I have seen a quarter horse who would worry calves or goats to death trying to "cut" them.
> I have a German shepherd now and I have had German shepherds in the past. When I say LGD I mean something different than what most people think of as an LGD I don't want an animal that lives in the pastures with the goats and protects them, I want something that patrols the entire place. I have so many different animals in different pastures/pens that I would need a herd of livestock guards to do that. I want something that has sense enough to know to run off predators be they human or animals predators and I am willing to have more than one of these dogs. Like a pair. Right now my German shepherd will run off predators if they are in the yard but she has no loyalty to the other animals at all, so if a predator is more towards the back and eat a few chickens she isn't concerned. My goats pens, all three of the pens are essentially in the yard. they are my biggest concern obviously, the horses can pretty much fend for themselves, and I hate losing chickens and ducks but I am not nearly as attached to them as I am the goats. Between Mom and dad and myself we have over 56 acres here at this homestead place so our yards are not small.


I think for the role you describe a German Shepherd would be better than an Aussie... although we have a Pyr-anatolian cross that functions as above (you can keep a LGD breed as a family pet as well)-- that might be better to get a pair of those you take to class and treat as a pet as well as a farm dog watchdog-- 56 acres is a fair amount of ground to cover....


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

IMO, both of these breeds are far removed from their original purpose and are largely show animals these days. Maybe it's less of an issue with Australian Shepherds than GSD but I've never seen one working. All of the herding dogs I've seen have been border collies and heelers (Australian Cattle Dogs.) No one seems to use standard collies for herding these days either. The German Shepherds that do work are often used for guard duty or police work. They are very smart and very trainable, but also tend to be aggressive. If one is trained to guard they are going to be more loyal to their person than to the animals, and unless every animal is fully fenced away from the dog there would be more chance of them killing something than with a LGD. I have seen plenty of GSDs that are fine on a farm, but they usually don't have as much aggressive tendencies as the ones that are used for guarding.


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## motdaugrnds

*... well, guess some bragging rights are in order ...*

I've never owned an Aussie; so can only speak about the GSD.

Here is my experience with a German Shepherd (full blood) named Cherokee. I got her when she was just weaned. (Owners had bottle fed and kept her in their house to bond with humans as I had requested). She DID have a prey drive and had to be trained not to chase my goats. I house broke her, which was quite easy; and when she was out with the goats, she was attached by a 6 ft leash to my "mix" (Apache: part shepherd, lab, chow) who had been born on my place, house broken and taught not to chase goats or fowl. Thus, when I was not around to train Cherokee, Apache was.

Neither of these dogs were LGDs! Our entire homestead is fenced; and these dogs kept 2 and 4-legged intruders off the place. Cherokee even chased off large flying predators.

It is all in the training! If you choose an all-purpose dog (no matter what breed), you must understand the dog of choice and curtail those characteristics that go against what you want that dog to be doing.

When Apache died of old age and Cherokee died from snake bite, I got a labrador and a then a Karakachan. The Karakachan IS an LGD. Still both dogs have had to be "socialized" with what I want them to care about and taught not to do what I don't want them to do. Of course it is easier to get some dogs to do certain things because they have a natural propensity to do certain things. So, my suggestion to the OP is to decide what chores are more important for the dog you get to do; then choose your dog according to its natural tendencies to do those.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you have 3 fenced-in animals inside a large fenced-in parcel of land; and you're wanting to keep predators out of your fenced-in animals without putting an LGD inside either of those pens the animals are in....whew! that's a mouth full! If this is correct, why not get a few large dogs that would enjoy patrolling INSIDE your large 56 acres? By keeping predators off your entire acreage, those predators would not get anywhere close to the pens you have your animals in.


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## NubianFan

That is basically what I have now, except, my german shepherd that I currently have, will not and does not protect my birds (chickens, ducks) she could care less if something eats them, she doesn't chase them or harm them but she has no loyalty to them either. She will run off any predator that comes around but if they slip _in_to the chickens she either doesn't know or doesn't care because we lose chickens and ducks constantly. She often kills possums and armadillos, and possums will kills chickens so she is helpful but she isn't fail proof. 
And possibly no dog would be the perfect fit either.


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## motdaugrnds

*...If I were in your shoes....*

I would get a "couple" of LGDs known to be "hunters of prey", teach them the boundaries of your 56 acres and make sure they cannot get out of it. Then place a "temporary" pen around your 3 pens that would keep those LGDs from roaming away from those 3 pens until they have socialized with all the different types of animals you have in them. By not letting the LGDs in with your animals, but letting them roam inside that temporary pen all around all 3 pens, they would get acquainted with all 3 types of animals you have. (After awhile, I would actually put them one at a time on a leash and take them into the 3 different pens to meet the animals up close just to learn how they respond to each other. If they've had time to get acquainted thru the fencing, that should not be problematic.)

During this time I would SLOWLY socialize those LGDs with my current dog(s). You may have problems here because ALL your dogs will have to establish their own "pack" hierarchy! (If it were me with this to do, I would get David to help me and each of us would have a dog on a leash for these socialization events...for as long as it took.)

During this time I would, also, take each LGDs on "individual" walks out of that temporary pen and around on the inside of that fencing surrounding the entire 56 acres in an attempt to teach them this is their boundary. (This is what David did with my Karakachan; and not once has Valentina attempted to get past the parameter fencing...knock on wood as I'm still learning about this breed.)

Once I'm certain both LGDs know where the parameter fencing is and once I'm certain both have become well-socialized with all animals in the pens, I would take down the temporary fencing and let the LGDs roam at will, enjoying the company of the other dogs you have. (The dogs you have may even start learning how to roam and guard the "entire" place from your LGDs. I know my dogs learn from each other.)

All this will take a great deal of time; but of course, you would more than likely wind up with dogs who are the envy of the county...like mine!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

I'm not a fan of socializing dogs on leash. Many of them become more defensive because they feel trapped, and time after time I've seen dogs that were growling and cowering on leash do fine once they're off. I've never had a fight happen, I let them work out their dominance as long as no one is getting hurt.


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## NigerianGirl

I have an Australian shepherd great pyr and Saint Bernard mix that does awesome with my goats I think if they are raised around the goats and are trained they could do well


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## Trickyroo

Not a good idea IMO. I have BC and I have GSD. Show line GSDs that work. Not the run around the ring show dogs. We have ones with high drive and ones with lower drive toward animals. I wouldn't trust leaving them inside a pen with the animals , no matter how well trained they are. They are herding breeds . Outside a pen is one thing , but what's the point if it doesn't catch a predator and it gets inside the pen with your animals ? Get a breed that is meant to be with" as in live with livestock IMO. Do your research on those breeds as well.


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## IslandBranch

I have a rescued Aussie and LOVE him. So tuned in to us and eager to please. He is wonderful with the goats but I don't consider him a LGD. He is indoor/outdoor and whenever he is outside he circles the outside of the goat pen - I think he thinks he's herding them in the pen. If one gets out he'll chase it back in. I don't leave him alone in the pen with the goats, but he had been around even the babies and hasn't been aggressive in the least. He's also good with the chickens, donkeys, and human kids. 
Sooooo, I wouldn't consider him a LGD but he's just a great overall dog and gets along well with the goats. 
We have donkeys and have never had a loss to predators.


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## MrSchaeferPants

I think breed is only part of the equation, but perhaps get a mix of the two? Maybe you'll luck out and get both traits, or get neither. 

If your property is fenced in, and the animals are in their own individual pens, when you get a new pup, make his/her area by the chickens. A dog house or something they recognize as 'their' area, and hopefully they'll return there throughout the day to settle down, rest, sleep. And at night time, that's where they hunker down. Meanwhile, your other dog has the rest of the area covered. Although that's wishful thinking, it could work out that way.


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## motdaugrnds

*...well, I've shared this before ...*

I'm a firm believer in accepting a dog's eagerness to please and need to have a place (carry some responsibilities) on the homestead. (Maybe I humanize them or even project onto them the desire to be needed and help out.) This being said, some dogs are actually bred for specific purposes and to rob that dog of those seems wrong to me. However, adding skills to those can make for, not only a happy owner but a happy dog as well. Such is what I ALWAYS do with my dogs. (It is somewhat like giving birth to a human child and teaching that child how wonderful it i the way she/he is while, simultaneously, teaching that child to conform to the boundaries/expectations of his/her environment. This makes for a happy and fruitful human being.)

I've shared this before; however, it might be good to share it again here.

Meet Cherokee! She is (was as she died of snake bite a few years ago) a fullblood German Shepherd. She also turned out to be an "alpha", which made teaching her a bit different from teaching most dogs...more like trying to teach an LGD who thinks for itself. The following pictures tell it more fully than words can express.


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## Trickyroo

GORGEOUS !!! 
Im so sorry you lost Cherokee 
It certainly looks like she enjoyed her "job" 
Thanks for sharing her pictures .


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## milkmaid

Motdaugrnds, Cherokee looks like a great dog!
How is it different to teach an alpha dog, I mean how to you make it obey? My sister's lab/husky cross is alpha here, and he's intractable sometimes.


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## MrSchaeferPants

milkmaid said:


> Motdaugrnds, Cherokee looks like a great dog!
> How is it different to teach an alpha dog, I mean how to you make it obey? My sister's lab/husky cross is alpha here, and he's intractable sometimes.


IMO, same as any dog. YOU need to be the alpha.

Cherokee was a beautiful dog. She seems to have been quite a big female, or appears that way from the pictures. Was trying to use the picture of the two on the floor and guessing 12" tiles and doing the math


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## motdaugrnds

*...an attempt to answer questions...*

Thanks everyone. I do appreciate your comments about Cherokee. I still miss her so much...her and Apache. 

Milkmaid, you asked, "How is it different to teach an alpha dog. I mean how to you make it obey?" MrSchaeferPants is partly correct in that "...YOU need to be the alpha."

However, I've learned being an "alpha" with an alpha dog is similar to being the alpha with an LGD. If you do a little research about "alpha canines" you'll discover they like to think for themselves; and IMO therein lies the difference in training methods. (*You do NOT "make" an alpha obey.*) Instead of treating them like their "controller". You need to treat them like a valued "partner" (when the partnership is split 60:40 with your getting the 60%). In other words you need to value their ability to think for themselves, even nurture it. I've learned my Karakachan (who is going thru her adolescents at this time) enjoys knowing what she can and cannot do; then does it her own way. This really needs to be respected, even appreciated.

Now as for the specifics in training such a dog, I can only share what has worked for me. I always get them as puppies just weaned...if they're not LGDs. If they are LGDs, then I would recommend getting them about a month "after" they've been weaned, PROVIDED THAT THEY HAVE BEEN WITH THEIR 'WORKING' PARENTS THAT EXTRA MONTH. Let them explore their new home while knowing they are loved and SAFE. Catch them doing something (no matter how small) you find helpful around your place and Stress those positives with verbal praise and treats you know are healthy and enjoyed...at first. Then stress your appreciation with the same verbal praise while substituting treat with pets/hugs. (What you want to do is let your dog know, whenever it does something helpful to your homestead, that is what it is suppose to do and it is appreciated.)

Now for consequences of wrong-doing, one must remember (and take into account) the age of that dog as well as the past experiences of that dog....This latter is one reason I do not attempt to train an older dog. (Some owners literally ruin a good dog by the way they treat that dog; and I am too old to re-train such a dog.) What I use with an alpha and an LGD "pup" for their misbehavior is always something that will keep myself safe during this situation. With a baby pup, I've learned grabbing it by the scuff of the neck, shaking a bit, then dropping it works very well as it is exactly what that pup's mother would have done. I've also learned by locking that pup up in a tiny pen it cannot get out of while still being able to see what is going on around it works too, as long as it is done immediately and for very short durations. (Must remember puppies have short attention spans; and you must ALWAYS STAY CALM AND LOVING!)

What I did to curtail the natural tendancy of Cherokee was to use words I had already taught her while house-breaking her. Words like "hey", "no", even a growling noise. I would use these when I was outdoors with her and caught her "wanting/getting ready" to chase a goat or fowl. (You must know your dog! When Cherokee lowered her head while focused on a goat/fowl, I knew she was about to charge; and that is when I threw out those verbal inhibitors.) When I was not around and had to leave Cherokee outdoors, I attached her to Apache with a rather short leash because I knew Apache would not chase any of the animals at all. Thus, this was Cherokee's inhibitor to her prey drive when I was not around. The other thing I did (which has to be done very cautiously) was to bring babies into the house while Cherokee was indoors. She HAD to get along with whatever that baby did! Pictures in my other post shows how this turned out. (The baby laying near Cherokee in one picture is the same baby Cherokee was protecting outdoors a few months later. Some strangers were on the farm talking with me and Cherokee did not want them near those goats...remember only one of those goats had bonded with her indoors.)

Now with this Karakachan (Valentina) it is quite similar except for the fact I have not let her in the house for any extended time, she has not been house broken, nor has she ever even seen a new born goat. Of course, being an LGD, Valentina does NOT have a prey drive; so I've never had to curtail that skill.

I hope this helps some. I have no doubt others have methods of training alpha canines that they have found work as well. It is all in knowing yourself, knowing your dog and staying positive rather than negative while letting your dog know YOU are the one who feeds them, YOU are the one who corrects them and YOU are the one who "heads the pack". (In my workings with these types of dogs, I could almost swear they're telepathic!. I have no doubt at all they pick up on my emotions!)

Hope this, also, helps the OP with her dilemma about GSDs.


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## MrSchaeferPants

That's a great post. And the human/owner being the alpha is with any dog, house pet or LGD. Being the alpha doesn't mean being mean or stern or controlling. I think a lot of people get the wrong idea of that. Dogs are pack animals, someone is ALWAYS the alpha, and those roles can change. You can have 4 older dogs, and get a new pup, and depending on that pup's demeanor he could become the alpha, no doubt. And it doesn't mean he's stronger, meaner, more controlling or what have you. Perhaps the current dogs just never wanted that position in the first place. But someone HAD to be.

Being the Alpha in your dogs relationship means ensuring what *THEY* think is important, is being taken care of. And that's not always what we people think is important. Not all dogs want this responsibility, and they release it to another dog, or human willingly, IF they believe they will take that role, and do it properly. And the human/dog alpha relationship is tricky, and unknowingly, a lot of people do things that to the dog, is a double standard, playing both alpha and beta roles at the same time, and it confuses them, and makes things harder.

There are a lot of really great reads on the subject. I could go on all day about it. It's a very in-depth topic, couldn't possible do it in a thread. I can't remember how many articles and books I've read. There's so many things that's natural for us to do or want to do, that is the opposite of what you should do.

I'm on the same line of not wanting to train an old dog, but I've done it before. It's definitely possible, just a whole lot harder, and time consuming. My buddy (who was a roomate) had a massive 4 year old Bloodhound who in time, did a complete 180 with training. Just keep in mind, everyone has a role, if you have 5 dogs, a husband, wife, and 3 kids, the dogs know there are 10 roles, and always know who's in what role, and it can be mixed, and it can constantly change.


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## milkmaid

Modaugrnds...great post! That's actually how we train, almost exactly. With the positive, "trust-based" training, I've noticed that our dogs are MUCH more obedient and attentive than the average dog, and show more intelligence. I don't want to give the impression that Arthur (the alpha dog) is very disobedient, he's not! He just pushes the boundaries more than the other two do.
Maybe it's just that Arthur and I have a personality clash.  He's very...headstrong. I like him a lot; he's a sweetheart, but it's a good thing he's my sister's dog and not mine, because we don't always get along very well.


> (*You do NOT "make" an alpha obey.*) Instead of treating them like their "controller". You need to treat them like a valued "partner" (when the partnership is split 60:40 with your getting the 60%). In other words you need to value their ability to think for themselves, even nurture it. I've learned my Karakachan (who is going thru her adolescents at this time) enjoys knowing what she can and cannot do; then does it her own way. This really needs to be respected, even appreciated.


I find this fascinating and it makes sense! I also have noticed that because we give our dogs room for intelligence and self-control, they actually _have_ more intelligence and self-control.


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## Twink90

I think any dog can be trained to protect livestock. We have a lab/rotwieler mix, German shepherd & a husky! My shepherd naturally herds them but my husky lets us know if anything comes near our yard.


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## motdaugrnds

Twink, I sure wish you would do something with those huge pictures. They have made reading this page of this thread terribly difficult because they have caused all texts to be spread out to match the width your pictures caused. That means I have to use the "horizontal" scroll bar constantly just to read the posts.


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## Twink90

Sorry on my phone they are tiny all 3 pics are next to each other. When I upload I chose medium size. 
Won't happen again sorry. It won't let me delete my post or I would


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## MrSchaeferPants

It shows up perfectly fine and normal for me :wave:


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## Rasfamily

OK not quite the breeds you were asking about but just my minimal experience with my small farm'
We have 2 1/2 acres with chickens, turkeys and guineas and are getting our 1st goats today.
We have seen everything from bear to fox and the bobcats here have decimated our birds in the past. We now leave our Irish Wolf Hound out with the stock and out side the pens and have no problems any more.
She thinks everything is a baby and had been ripped apart one time by a feral hog to the point we thought we would have to put her down.
She is not your typical livestock type dog but her personality mild demeanor and fierce protective instinct make her a great guard dog.
I am still apprehensive bringing in the goats today but if she is her usual mellow self I see no problems with her running the property.

I would personally rather have a Anatolian but Lacy shows the right dog even if not the right breed can be very effective against predators.


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## motdaugrnds

MrSchaeferPants said:


> .
> Being the Alpha in your dogs relationship means ensuring what *THEY* think is important, is being taken care of. And that's not always what we people think is important.


I really like this, though it is very difficult to teach this to "humans". Example is just what occurred the other night.

Valentina (Bulgarian Karakachan 9 months old) was making a real fuss with barking intermixed with howls. We heard a helecopter, gunshots and barking dogs in the distance; so "guessed" this is what she was so disturbed about. It got on David's nerves so he tried to correct her. I asked David not to correct her because Valentina has always been a "talker"; and I did not want her getting the idea that what she had to say was not important. Later on that same night I heard a loud scramble as Valentina charged down the back porch steps where she had been eating her food. I grabbed a flashlight to see what was going on and saw the goats hurrying up from behind the barn where Valentina was heading. Her growling was loud as she ran past those goats. After a bit I heard her bark and howl down there. (I believed whatever she had been concerned about had run away and she was letting it know she was on guard.) I called her back and gave her one of her favorite treats.

I firmly believe owners of any type of a guardian dog needs to know their dog(s) and respect the fact they just might be aware of something going on that we are not. (Makes no sense to me to have a guard dog if we cannot trust this aspect of them.)


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## Twink90

I agree with you!!! My husband has no patience when our dogs bark. & starts yelling at them. It's so frustrating to me as I know they are doing for a reason & not to annoy him. 
He is really hard on my German shepherd & even grabs her then yells in her face to shut up. I get so angry about this because trinity is going to be my protection dog. I am training her to do protection & barking is a requirement. One day I fear she will bite him when he gets mad & goes after her. When it happens he will deserve it.


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## motdaugrnds

*...a suggestion...*

Twink90, if I may be so bold as to make a suggestion: Do not get angry with your husband for this. Praise him for wanting the home calm. However, ask him if he will correct your dog in a different manner.

CORRECTION SPECIFICS: Get very near the dog in a positive manner; and when the dog barks, firmly clasp a hand (or both) around that dog's mouth (from "under" the chin) to hold it closed while saying "shhhhhh" and looking outward in the same direction that dog had been looking. When the dog barks (now muffled) praise the dog lavishly. Stay with that dog awhile doing this each time the dog barks until that dog is barking "softly" without a hand holding its mouth closed. (Give treats!)

I did this many years ago (while living in the city). My dog was a grown German Shepherd that would bark at anything coming near the "downstairs" apartment. Of course, this took awhile and kept me getting up during the night when I really didn't want to. However, the outcome was a dog who still barked to let me know someone was near who (in that dog's mind) should not be near, but did so in a low, muffled tone that did not disturb anyone. (This let me sleep better and respected that dog as well.)


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## ttaylor7

NubianFan said:


> Can either of these breeds be used successfully as livestock guardian dogs? Or do you have to have a Pyrenees or Anatolian or some of the more known guardian dogs?
> If anyone has any experience using either as a guardian dog tell me your experience.


Both breeds you mention are bred (hard-wired by their genetics) to HERD animals (which means a degree of chasing and even biting if it seems needed to control the livestock. Asking one of these dogs to function as a livestock protector (bonding to livestock NOT humans; NOT biting; not attempting to control the livestock) would be like getting a boer goat and expecting it to milk like a milk goat.  It is always important to understand the original purpose of a breed of animal. Sometimes they have taken a turn and are now used for something else (for example, no one uses Rotties as drover's dogs anymore to drive cattle down the byways to market). BUT the instincts that made the Rottie protective of his owner and owner's property make him a useful guard dog -- but not livestock guard dog - today.


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## ttaylor7

NubianFan said:


> Can either of these breeds be used successfully as livestock guardian dogs? Or do you have to have a Pyrenees or Anatolian or some of the more known guardian dogs?
> If anyone has any experience using either as a guardian dog tell me your experience.


We have used both purebred (registered) Akbash Dogs and Kangal Dogs with our dairy goats, chickens, commercial hair sheep, and commercial angus mother cows since 1980. Different breeds of livestock protection dogs, like different (purebred) breeds of livestock have slightly different traits. We find our dogs predictable in behavior which was not always true with crossbred dogs. We currently have some Karakachans from Bulgaria being "trained" for the owner on our farm -- they are different from either of the Turkish breeds, but I can see how they would work well in certain types of situations. Some one on this site described her barking, vocal Karakachan -- sounds like these guys a bit.

The environment the dog is in, such as fencing (to teach young dogs where their territory is), the livestock the dog is with (is it young and playful, old and bossy, frightened of dogs and constantly running away), what is across the fence (part of the environment, I guess) - barking neighbor dogs, dogs that get friendly with the young dog and then come in to chase stock, people that harass the dog (and make it people aggressive) and the dog itself are all factors that affect the dog and its success. Of course, we need to add the owner and his/her management skills (dog and livestock sense) to that list.

All that may, ultimately, be more important than the breed; perhaps the best thing to do in purchasing livestock or a livestock guard dog is to choose a good breeder will help you succeed. But typically that kind of support means the animal costs more.


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## ttaylor7

*"Training" vs natural instincts*

Most dogs are by nature protective of territory and most breeds can be taught to interact appropriately with livestock (or the neighbor children or some stranger at a dog park) particularly if their owners are present. Those dogs are called "farm dogs."

When someone has a real predation problem, they typically want a 24/7 livestock protector -- a dog that does not need to be taught to not bite or chase stock, a dog that prefers sleeping with the sheep/goats/poultry/etc. to sitting next to its "master." These dogs - without training - are watchful and suspicious of any intrusions by "strangers." Those strangers might be predators or people or animals unknown to the dog. A good lgd is protective rather than aggressive, but an experienced lgd will know to go immediately on the offensive when a bobcat, cougar, maurading dog, coyotes, etc. comes into its pasture.

A livestock guardian dog is not the same as a "guard" dog breed -- a german shepherd, any non-lgd breed would usually be MUCH happier going to the house with his/her master after evening chores are done. A properly raised lgd breed dog will prefer to stay at the barn or in the pasture with the stock rather than go back to the house with the owner. In 30 years with various breeds of livestock guard dogs and with interviews with dozens and dozens of lgd/livestock owners, I know of 1 non-lgd that stayed 24/7 with the dairy herd out on several hundred acres. She was a border collie x greyhound cross - not a combination most of us would trust with goats on her own. She was one in a million -- a fluke that developed in a certain environment. Most folks who want to protect their livestock (goats, sheep, poultry, etc) want more predictability and want to rely less on luck to given them that protection.


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## NubianFan

Honestly I have pretty much gotten the answer I needed. Anything further would really be just for future education of others.


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## dance4emily

My family has an Australian shepherd and we love her to pieces she is super kind but loves to herd if you have kids these dogs are great with kids and they are also pretty! Hope that helped!!


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