# Wether or not?



## CircleK_Annye (May 17, 2013)

I'm growing out my first kids for harvest this fall. Do you wether or leave intact? I'd be harvesting between four and six months. 


Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I wether...but I think it'd be personal choice. Do you have any does with them? If so, wether unless you want them to breed your does.
Are you selling them? Some people prefer intact males....


----------



## J-TRanch (Jan 31, 2014)

If your're keeping them I prefer wethers... I'm not sure why LOL... I think it's just personal choice


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

All I can ever think of is: Would I really want to eat something that smells like a buck does? LOL I'd wether just for that reason. But I know a lot of people that don't.


----------



## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

If there's some that look like something you would use as a herd sire and if not band him unless you can't separate them then I would band them if your not sure you can allow people to put a deposit down on ones they want as a buck and band what you don't sell ahead of time


----------



## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

Leave intact since you are harvesting at that age. Faster growth, less work, and no complication risk.


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

We also leave ours intact. We wean them at 14 weeks and put them in the buck pen then grow out to 5-6 months.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I would leave them too since they will be so young. I'm doing things different this year by weathering so can't tell you if it's worth it yet (lol) but I was leaving mine be. I sold them at 3 months old so when they started getting frisky they were gone before a problem. Also banding is a stressful thing and they do loose some weight. I saw no point in doing anything that makes them loose weight when I want them to gain. I'm only weathering this year cause I want to try and sell show wethers.


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If I'm keeping them for my own use I leave them intact. If I'm selling or auctioning them I either disbud or neuter them. I don't care if they get eaten but, I feel weird about them being used for blood sacrifice and "blemishing" the animal prevents them from being used that way.


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

*I'm really not up on the meat goat lingo!*



goathiker said:


> being used for blood sacrifice


 I've never heard of that. Google was no help. Do some religions use goats as a blood sacrifice?

We neuter all non-breeding males - switched to burdizzo, though, because it doesn't risk the sac separating before it falls off (infection risk). We give banamine if they show signs of pain. We think that dam-raising neutered bucks doesn't sacrifice growth. Weaning is hard on them and neutering is hard on them. Six of one, half dozen of another. But milk fattens them up. If your does will nurse to harvest age, milk-fed kids are supposedly more tender.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I will state loud and clear that I have nothing against anyone else's religion or how they choose to worship. I simply don't believe in animal sacrifice and don't want the few animals I may sell for meat being used for that purpose. Others may choose whatever they want, that is one of the freedoms of being American.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Understanding-the-Animal-Sacrifice-in-Islam&id=3190344

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/1...ded-during-muslim-animal-sacrifice-in-turkey/

This link has graphic pictures.
http://www.vdare.com/posts/florida-muslim-plans-for-animal-sacrifice-go-private


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

goathiker, thanks for clarifying. I would certainly want my friendly, hand-raised, socialized boys to go gently if they go. I think, in a sense, every meat animal is "sacrificed" but the traditional ways may not be as humane as the modern ways (and, certainly at some slaughterhouses, there have been cases of the modern ways being inhumane too).


----------



## Baphomet (Jun 15, 2013)

Harley, do you give that banamine intravenously?


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No. Banamine is given IM or SQ.


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

I give banamine subq, but I think there's some research showing it's a little more caustic that way or something? I don't do IV for anything non-life-threatening, I'm just not real comfortable sticking a needle in a vein. I think you can give it orally - check with your vet for what method is currently recommended and appropriate to you and your herd. But I do sub-q. 

And I tell my vet that I treat for pain in wethering and disbudding in accordance with AVMA guidelines for humane disbudding and wethering of cattle and sheep (there are no guidelines for goats) because my local vet will only prescribe one dose unless I give a valid reason for needing to have many doses on hand. I'm getting low and have to go back in and justify the need again before next kidding season. A lot of vets are unfamiliar with treating pain in kids goats after routine - but painful - procedures.


----------



## Baphomet (Jun 15, 2013)

Banamine is off label use in goats. The doses and routes of administration are based on doses in cattle, and it is against FDA regulations to administer banamine subcutaneously or intramuscularly in cattle. It can only be given Iv. Vets can prescribe banamine of course, but they have to be aware of the withdrawal time and go on record as using this drug off label. 


I know it's done all the time and even some vets say it's ok, but banamine should not be given sub q or im to goats, because the drug's withdrawal time is very very long by that route. 

I know what I am saying is not what most people think and it will probably piss people off, but I'm only saying this to help. If a goat carcass were tested for banamine residues, there's a very good chance they would be detected in goats that got banamine by those routes. Then the usda would come after your vet and probably you. 

Again please remember I am trying to help by saying this before you respond. I usually stay quiet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It is off label but, it is approved for IM use in meat and milk goats. It has a very short withdrawal time. 

Flunixin meglumine Banamine® extra-label (dose rate) 1.1-2.2mg/kg (route) IV or IM (frequency) Once a day (Withdrawal meat) 10 days (milk) 72 hours


----------



## Baphomet (Jun 15, 2013)

Goat hiker, I would love to see that reference if you have it


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/goats/presentations/A5 Goatmeds[1].pdf


----------



## Baphomet (Jun 15, 2013)

Thanks for showing us that. I know it seems pretty credible coming from a university, but I can tell you that the opinion of that veterinarian is very much in the minority among experts in this field today.

The truth is that the meat and milk withdrawal times are completely unknown in goats after banamine, so a conservative estimate is actually 30 days. Where that 10 days/72 hours time that dvm has posted came from, no one can say. Banamine residues are the most frequently sited ones found in carcasses. Many experts who know a lot about this think IM is a big mistake with this drug.

Remember, all data on extra label use of this drug in goats comes from cows. Here's what the FDA says about cows:

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm048036.htm

ANd FARAD, the organization that consults with vets about extra label drug use, won't even handle questions about any route than IV.

That's the end of my soap box...


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Cattle: 
UK:
Milk 12 hours, slaughter seven days (Binixin Injection 5% (Bayer), Cronyxin injection (Bimeda UK), Meflosyl 5% injection (Fort Dodge Animal Health), Resprixin (Intervet)). (UK)(B201.10.w10)
Milk 12 hours, slaughter five days (Finadyne Solution (Schering-Plough)). (UK)(B201.10.w10, B350: data sheet for Finadyne Solution, Schering-Plough Animal Health)
Milk 36 hours, slaughter seven days (Flunixin injection (Norbrook)). (UK) (B201.10.w10)
Australia:
Milk 36 hours slaughter 28 days (Cronyxin Injection, Bimeda) (Australia). (B201.10.w10)
Milk seven days, slaughter 28 days (Flumav (Mavlav) (Australia). (B201.10.w10)
Milk 36 hours slaughter 28 days (Flunix (Parnell) (Australia). (B201.10.w10)
Eire:
Milk 36 hours, slaughter seven days (Binixin Injection (Bayer), Finadyne solution (Schering-Plough), Flunixin Injection (Norbrook) (Eire). (B201.10.w10)
France: 
Milk withdrawal nil, meat 10 days, following administration at 2 mg/kg, intravenously or intramuscularly. (J4.211.w1)
Switzerland: 
Milk withdrawal 71 hours, meat withdrawal five days, following administration at 2.2 mg/kg intravenously or intramuscularly, at 24 hour intervals. (J4.211.w1)
New Zealand:
Milk nil, slaughter one day (Finadyne (Schering-Plough), Flunix (Parnell)). (New Zealand) (B201.10.w10)
Milk discard during treatment, slaughter one day. (Croayxin (Reamor)). (New Zealand) (B201.10.w10)
Note: If injected repeatedly intramuscularly the half-life is prolonged and the residue withdrawal periods may be lengthened. (J289.27S1.w1)
USA: 
Meat four days, when administered at a dose rate of 2.2 mg/kg bodyweight daily or 1.1 mg/kg bodyweight every 12 hours for a maximum of three days. (J289.27S1.w1)
Not labelled for use in lactating or dry dairy cows or in calves which are to be processed for veal. (J289.27S1.w1)
Following use at 1.1 to 2.2 mg/kg intravenously or intramuscularly every 24 hours for three to five days, withdrawal times suggested by FARAD of 72 hours for milk, 10 days for meat. [1997] (J4.211.w1)
Canada:
"If flunixin is administered to lactating dairy cattle at an intravenous dose of 2.2 mg per kg of body weight a day for three days, evidence has been compiled by the Canadian gFARAD that suggests a meat withdrawal time of 6 days and a milk withholding time of 72 hours would be sufficient to avoid residues." (J289.27S1.w1)

Here's where it came form...

Following use at 1.1 to 2.2 mg/kg intravenously or intramuscularly every 24 hours for three to five days, withdrawal times suggested by FARAD of 72 hours for milk, 10 days for meat. [1997] (J4.211.w1)


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Baphomet said:


> Vets can prescribe banamine of course, but they have to be aware of the withdrawal time and go on record as using this drug off label.


Thank you for the input. I couldn't remember which method was "preferred" and, IIRC, the issue my vet raised was a localized irritation/discomfort in the muscle.

I should clarify that I raise dairy goats.

Goat owners are sort of damned if we do, damned if we don't. There's few medicines available for goats and a hell of a lot of legal hassles for the ones we can use. If we don't offer reasonable pain control, it's inhumane and contrary to public expectations of humane animal husbandry. I will say that the first form of pain relief I offer is a hug - for many goats, that really helps. Then I offer milk, another "sedative." But pain is a medical condition, and a goat standing off by himself, off-feed, or otherwise showing a persistent pain response deserves pain meds the same as he would deserve worm meds for clinical signs of a high worm load.


----------



## Baphomet (Jun 15, 2013)

No one is suggesting that goats don't deserve pain meds. There are a lot better things to use these days. Oral meloxicam is probably the most popular among those who don't want to mess with banamine. Look at those references: that last one is from 1997

Farad won't touch this issue any longer


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## Baphomet (Jun 15, 2013)

Or learn to use it IV. That's what I do. 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------

