# Why is conformation important



## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

So recently in my club the disagreement came that conformation does not matter and that it is just for "cosmetics." What are your views on the importance and how do you teach others why it matters?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Bad conformation continually passed from generation to generation leads to unhealthy animals. Could you imagine a low dipped top line being bred for? The goat would look like the headboard and footboard of a bed, with a mattress draped between them, and no rails or frame.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

@Dwarf Dad But how do you teach that to people who dont think it matters?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

That is a good question! @Damfino explained conformation and showing in a very clear and concise manner in another post, I will look for it. She is probably busy packing up to go home from the annual pack goat rendezvous, right now.
If I ever need anyone to explain somethimg to me or others, she would be my first choice.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

This is a helpful thread, it is not just about horns.
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/whats-the-big-deal-about-adga-and-natuaral-horns.150966/
Maybe you could condense it down to where you have a chance of teaching it.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Conformation is absolutely important, and it's not remotely about "looking pretty"!!! It's about the long-term health, comfort, and efficiency of the animal. For example, no matter how nice a doe's udder, if she has weak pasterns and splayed toes, she will soon start having trouble with mobility during the last couple months of pregnancy and this can affect her ability to carry the kids to term and deliver without complications. She may have trouble jumping onto the milk stand, she may be more prone to falling or stumbling and hurting herself, you'll have more trouble keeping her hooves healthy, etc. She may not have a useful life past six or seven years, which is half what you'll get from an animal with strong conformation. This is just one example.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Ive see people recently use the excuse that they are breeding to a 4H market and that was an excuse to cheap out on conformation. What would you say about that? 
Ive tried telling them that bad conformation will deteriorate an animal faster like your example but that doesnt seem to be reaching them.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

There are people who just aren't going to care. But good confirmation leads to a healthier life till the end.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with everyone.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Goatzrule said:


> Ive see people recently use the excuse that they are breeding to a 4H market and that was an excuse to cheap out on conformation. What would you say about that?
> Ive tried telling them that bad conformation will deteriorate an animal faster like your example but that doesnt seem to be reaching them.


Maybe those people who do not listen are the ones who only see dollar signs at the front end. Sort of like buying ONLY at the dollar store, instead of comparing prices at dollar store to regular store.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The more attention I pay to conformation, the less money I have to spend on health care and feed, and the more willing people are to pay for my goats. Note, I don't say I get much more money for them, I say I get more buyers, because I have healthy, "pretty" goats.

Perhaps this appeal to an ultimate bottom line will help.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Goatzrule said:


> Ive see people recently use the excuse that they are breeding to a 4H market and that was an excuse to cheap out on conformation. What would you say about that?


It doesn't matter which "market" you're breeding to... for the good of the animal and for the good of the industry as a whole, it is important to pay attention to conformation. Not one animal is 100% perfect, but it's important to choose wisely when selecting animals to add to your herd. Yes, we've all been in a place where the only thing that mattered was the price tag, and in those cases we have to work with what's available in our budget. But if you have an eye toward bettering your herd, it means finding a way to breed to better bucks, keeping kids that show some improvement over their dams, etc. Sometimes it means taking a risk on an animal whose conformation you really love but that has personality problems or other issues you may be able to work with. Heaven knows the conformation in my herd isn't great, but I'm slowly improving wherever I can.

For 4-H kids, their budgets are limited, but it's important to keep in mind that the goats these kids buy are often the foundation animals for their own herds. The kids usually keep their first goats for the long haul since they can't afford to constantly upgrade. So for 4-H kids, I'd think conformation would be the second most important quality after a gentle disposition. Milk production would be further down the line since these kids aren't running commercial dairies. They don't need 2-gallon/day powerhouse producers. They need low maintenance goats that can milk reliably and easily by hand, who kid easily, and who will hold up through many years, many kiddings, and many lactation cycles. I don't know that most judges at shows will recognize this, but to me these would be the most important qualities in a 4-H dairy goat.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Honestly I agree when you can’t change a hard headed persons mind, just pick your battles and let them figure it out on their own. 
But this is a really good topic! My kids 4H leader on one of her meetings she basically covered this. She had what to look for and why it was important. Like a goat with posty legs may not be able to travel as well and far as one that was correct, teeth, for obvious reasons and so on. You should be able to go onto any breed standards and find what to look for and why. I can’t remember them all but it was a very informative meeting.
Now I’m going to throw my two cents into the mix. Keep in mind I very much thing conformation is a very important factor in breeding and purchasing goats. Now I have personally culled very correct does in the past for reasons other then conformation. What’s the point in having a correct doe when she won’t raise her kids, tried breaking other goats legs or so on and so forth. And I have kept less then perfect goats, some way less then perfect, because they are perfect in other ways. Right now I have the ugliest Nubian X Boer probably ever made. But she is easy going, she has trips and quads every year, can spit out a 12 pound baby like it’s nothing and her kids grow super fast. She will stay here forever. Her less then perfect kids that she does a good job on is way better then perfect kids that either never happen or will continue to add to less then great mothering traits in my herd. Does it have to do with money? Yeah in a way it does. I’m not supporting free loaders around here lol it’s a business not a hobby. BUT I want to one day have that herd that is all around perfect. I want to continue have a better and better herd and that is my goal. I think any breeder that takes pride in what they do has that same goal. But if he/she thinks what goes in a pail is what is important then I don’t think that is a overly bad thing but it just makes no sense in not trying to go for it all.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Damfino said:


> Conformation is absolutely important, and it's not remotely about "looking pretty"!!! It's about the long-term health, comfort, and efficiency of the animal. For example, no matter how nice a doe's udder, if she has weak pasterns and splayed toes, she will soon start having trouble with mobility during the last couple months of pregnancy and this can affect her ability to carry the kids to term and deliver without complications. She may have trouble jumping onto the milk stand, she may be more prone to falling or stumbling and hurting herself, you'll have more trouble keeping her hooves healthy, etc. She may not have a useful life past six or seven years, which is half what you'll get from an animal with strong conformation. This is just one example.


X2


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Jessica84 said:


> Now I'm going to throw my two cents into the mix. Keep in mind I very much thing conformation is a very important factor in breeding and purchasing goats. Now I have personally culled very correct does in the past for reasons other then conformation. What's the point in having a correct doe when she won't raise her kids, tried breaking other goats legs or so on and so forth. And I have kept less then perfect goats, some way less then perfect, because they are perfect in other ways. Right now I have the ugliest Nubian X Boer probably ever made. But she is easy going, she has trips and quads every year, can spit out a 12 pound baby like it's nothing and her kids grow super fast. She will stay here forever. Her less then perfect kids that she does a good job on is way better then perfect kids that either never happen or will continue to add to less then great mothering traits in my herd. Does it have to do with money? Yeah in a way it does. I'm not supporting free loaders around here lol it's a business not a hobby. BUT I want to one day have that herd that is all around perfect. I want to continue have a better and better herd and that is my goal. I think any breeder that takes pride in what they do has that same goal. But if he/she thinks what goes in a pail is what is important then I don't think that is a overly bad thing but it just makes no sense in not trying to go for it all.


^ I can totally get behind this! Sometimes the nicest-made animal is the one we don't want to deal with because of her wretched personality or some other problem! Some personality flaws can be worked with and others you just can't (although maybe someone else with a different setup or different herd dynamics could). My herd queen does not have the nicest conformation in the world, and I fear her udder may break down before she does, but she's worth her weight in gold because of the stability she brings to my entire herd. She's a low maintenance, easy keeper, a good mother, and she's nice to everyone's babies and makes sure all are ok. She keeps control of the herd without ever being a bully. So I will keep this goat as long as she holds up, but I wish she were built to last longer. I've been trying to breed her to really good udder bucks with good feet so her offspring will be better than she is. One thing I love that she passes on to her kids is super intelligence. She and all her kids are smart as a whip and they all have this drive to learn. My packgoat Sputnik is her son.

So you're absolutely right--conformation is not everything. But it's also not something to discard as unimportant "fluff stuff" for the show ring. I'm honestly not always impressed by the conformation in the show ring because not all of it is geared toward performance so much as what's fashionable at the time. This is why it's important to develop your own eye for what you want to see in your own herd.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

It isn't "EVERYTHING"
But it certainly isn't "UNIMPORTANT"
And conformation is probably the easiest thing to evaluate early in life, when you are trying to decide which kid to keep and which to sell...


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes fashionable at the time of even just simply not something everyone is after. Boers for example the “it thing” is these short big bodied animals. Basically a boers body on pigmy legs. Sure I guess to a point you really can’t eat a whole leg but I want legs! The more leg they have the higher up on the brush and trees they can eat and in the end the less I have to feed and the better clearance if a fire comes threw. Not everyone has uses their goats to also brush so I can see why they don’t care about legs but I do lol 
Mariarose yes it is. Why wouldn’t anyone pick one with better conformation especially if all the kids come from their ideal herd? If for any reason just simply eye appeal. I knew one lady that went out and bought a bunch of goats with all these drool worthy lines on paper and they were not bad looking goats when she first got them. She saw goats as being a fast way to make money and eventually her goats looked like crap. She had all these high dollar goats that she had to ship the kids to the sale because her whole herd looked like crap. I know we are talking apples and oranges here but even simple eye appeal makes a huge difference. If I’m in the market for a goat I’m going to bet more on a “pretty goat” (not talking color at all here) then I am a ugly goat. That ugly goat better be pretty cheap for me to take a gamble on it.


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## R.Williamson (Mar 21, 2019)

To me it is important. I don't have the best builds in my herd, but we are improving. My goal is to have productive goats who will get that rail weight. I need my nannies able to produce twins/triplets reliably and feed them. In order to do that they need the bags to feed them. They need the frame to carry them and they absolutely must be able to hold their weight. Parasite resistance is always something I strive for. I raise Boer and Boer crosses at the moment. So I kinda place conformation and "Breed Standards" in separate categories.They overlap but in some instances the breed standard may or may not matter to what I am aiming. ABGA"s skin pigment, or lack there of, is one of the things that isn't big for me. I get why it is there but my climate is not usually an issue with sunburn.I obviously don;t register the ones who don;t meet that requirement but they still work well for meat and meat breeders.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Rhiannon M Williamson This isn't the thread for it, and I won't hijack it, but I'd welcome a discussion one day about your goals and how you are achieving them, Particularly parasite resistance and good udders in Boers in the Steamy Southeast


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## R.Williamson (Mar 21, 2019)

mariarose said:


> @Rhiannon M Williamson This isn't the thread for it, and I won't hijack it, but I'd welcome a discussion one day about your goals and how you are achieving them, Particularly parasite resistance and good udders in Boers in the Steamy Southeast


 Sure thing.As for my goals they are a work in progress. Still fairly new but hey we all have a dream right?


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Better confirmation = less work and money. High and tight udders don’t snag on things, requiring bandaging or surgery to keep a productive doe. Good hooves don’t need as much care as bad hooves. Wide, sturdy hips allow easy kidding, so you don’t have to pull kids and spend money on antibiotics for going in or vet bills on a c-section. 

Now, I got rid of a gorgeous doe with great conformation this year because she had the WORST health in my herd. Her immune system just wasn’t as strong as everyone else’s.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

singinggoatgirl said:


> Wide, sturdy hips allow easy kidding, so you don't have to pull kids and spend money on antibiotics for going in or vet bills on a c-section.


We just had a doe deliver a kid rump first with legs tucked underneath without assistance. We were there, but she had the kid before we even realized how it was positioned. (thumbup)

This is a picture of her a year ago. You can see how wide her rump is. She's one of my favorites.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

singinggoatgirl said:


> Now, I got rid of a gorgeous doe with great conformation this year because she had the WORST health in my herd. Her immune system just wasn't as strong as everyone else's.


I had to get rid of a beautiful doe last year for the same reason. Lovely conformation, easy kidder, and amazing udder, but she just couldn't seem to keep weight or stay healthy. She was always having to be wormed or medicated for something or other and she ate three times what any of my other goats ate. Good conformation does not always translate into good health if their immune system is somehow compromised.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

^^^^ perfect examples singinggoatgirl! Sure I think pretty much everyone kinda has their mental list of what they find more important then other things, but that doesn’t mean that anything about conformation is only to look pretty in a ring. And even if they have never had a issue with this or that why risk it? When I first started I was pretty dumb lol I ended up buying a few does that had fish teats. They fed their kids fine, they grew just as good as the other kids. It wasn’t hard to just not keep any kids out of those does. And once I got my herd pretty much established they went down the road. No I never had issues with them but I could see how If they had dumb kids or a bit weak and your trying to get them latched on it would be a problem. Now the first thing I do as soon as kids are born is look at teats. I’m not willing to invest 2 years of feed into something that might be able to carry, deliver, and feed a kid and still come out alive or not with a massive vet bill. 
You know what OP I really enjoy this topic!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

@Goatzrule is there any way you could print this thread and use it in your next club meeting? There are a lot of valuable opinions that could be taught to beginning goat owners.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

IHEARTGOATS said:


> We just had a doe deliver a kid rump first with legs tucked underneath without assistance. We were there, but she had the kid before we even realized how it was positioned. (thumbup)
> 
> This is a picture of her a year ago. You can see how wide her rump is. She's one of my favorites.


@IHEARTGOATS That is the most gorgeous doe, and I want hips that wide in my herd! I want one of her babies!!! My goal of not buying more goats until spring 2021 is feeling shaky...


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

singinggoatgirl said:


> @IHEARTGOATS That is the most gorgeous doe, and I want hips that wide in my herd! I want one of her babies!!! My goal of not buying more goats until spring 2021 is feeling shaky...


She just had triplet does !!! Sired by a buck out of the 2016 and 2017 Total Performer 2016 Reserve Udder at ADGA National. ( Sweet Garden BT Vivaldi dam Fairlea Elise 
http://www.sweetgardengoats.com/Fairlea_Elise.html )

You can get one of them. !!!.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, conformation helps in many ways. Not just for being beautiful, but, that is why they have breed standards actually in each association.
There is a reason for it and helps to prevent, issues and prevents low meat yields.

Here are examples of bad conformations:

A weak dipped back(not a level topline) will cause issues when the goat matures and will weaken further, causing more structural issues.

The same with weak pasterns.
What will you do if a goat cannot walk and will be in pain or discomfort from it, the older that goat gets.

A doe to narrow or with a steep rump, may cause birthing issues.

Buck Scrotum's, being small or disfigured, will not allow many sperm out, to do their jobs.
Count will be lower than a well rounded, equal size and normal size scrotum.
A split scrotum, can trap in bacteria or mites, plus can also lower sperm counts.

A doe who's udder has bad teat structures and cannot feed her babies. Makes bottle babies.

An udder hanging too low, will only cause issues of her possibly stepping on it causing injury, to not allowing her kids to get to her teats to nurse or may have bottle teats, too big for her babies to latch on.

Parrot mouth or the opposite, doesn't allow the goat to eat properly and to thrive. Which worsens with age.

Collapsed ears, cause bacteria and mites to collect.

If the goat doesn't have good conformation, you won't get good meat cuts, in which, they were meant to have. They are a meat goat. 

To narrow and thin goat, won't give much meat yield.
A good wide, big boned, long wide topline, well muscled goat would, who has "good conformation".
This goat would have a long loin, more cuts of premium meat.
There is a huge difference.

This is just some reasoning for why good conformation is wise and necessary.

We, as breeders should try to meet those needs as much as possible. we do our best to better the herd each time we breed.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Goatzrule I find it significant, that you are are getting the same thing over and over, even when the ones answering are breeding different breeds (very different breeds) and for a plethora of purposes for keeping goats. Such a diverse set responding so uniformly on a single question...

I think this destroys the "It depends on the target market" reason you were given.

I am sincerely sorry for the children in 4-H who are the recipients of this. They, and bill of goods (bill of goats?) foisted upon them are the real losers here.

How will we ever convince Big Veterinary Pharma to take goats seriously if the breeders themselves won't?

Thank you for fighting the good fight. My goats thank you, too.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Another fork off of this. Why is it important that your buck is good quality? Ive had a couple instances in the club where a family would either keep a poor quality buck to use for breeding or by a cheap buck. How would you teach that having a nice buck is important and that its less expensive in the long run?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

What good is it to have a wonderful doe and then create a lesser daughter because the buck you used is poor quality? Don't you want to at least stay on the same level rather than going down hill?

(not YOU, of course @Goatzrule. Just the hypothetical "you")


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

The buck is half your herd! If you spend money on nothing else, spend money on a good buck because ALL of your offspring will go back to him. You can get away with having a few poor quality does in your herd if you have a good buck, but if you have a lousy buck then he will bring down every goat in your herd, including your good does. Besides, bucks are very high maintenance and stinky. If you're going to put up with his nonsense, he'd better be worth it! If you can't afford a good buck, try borrowing one or driveway breeding to one. 

That said, I've known a lot of folks who had no plans except to grow the kids out to weaning weight and sell them for meat. In those cases, you can get away with breeding to a lousy buck, but you want to try to find one that is a heavier meat breed so you can get more weight at weaning. Conformation in those cases is not so important but health still is.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.

You could tell those people who do not realize the importance, to come here to TGS and read up on all the opinions about this. They will see you are not alone in this.


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