# Critiques please?



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I have replaced most of my goats with commercial meat goats, since they seem to sell better. Still, I know dairy better than I do meat, and I was looking for opinions on them. My primary intent is to have hardy, heavy kids that can get good prices at the auction or as show and commercial breeding stock.

Azrael, 100% son of JMF Diego, imported kiko buck. He's 4 months old in the picture, about 50lb
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq18 ... 111635.jpg
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq18 ... 112020.jpg
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq18 ... 110826.jpg

Black Widow, 3 month old fullblood boer doe, 4 ennoblements on either side. Unregistered. She weighed about 42lb in that picture, she's about 60lb now
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq18 ... 073448.jpg
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq18 ... 075157.jpg
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq18 ... 073129.jpg

Adeleine, 50% boer 50% nubian yearling along with her 3 week old 75% doeling. 8 ennoblements in bev's pedigree, a couple in addy's. Neither are registered.
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq18 ... 182428.jpg
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq18 ... 184753.jpg


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I think they are a very nice start to a meat goat herd. 
I really adore Adeleine's doeling, what a cutie! Love that face, what a flashy girl!

I don't have any experience with fullblood kikos.
However, we have a kiko/mix doe that we breed to fullblood boer bucks, and although she's a 'mutt bred' goat, she's done fine with her
kids - last year we weaned her twins at 45-60lbs around 2 1/2-3mo.
She gave us a single doeling this year, she's 4 months old and 80lbs, but she was also 13lbs at birth!

The only thing I don't think I like about Black Widow is probably her teat, looks like a split? I am by far no pro with goats or anything,
but I know if your wanting to breed anything that goes into a show ring you have to consider the teats. Even on market animals I've seen the judges here check teats. Most commercial breeders we've met didn't care about clean teats.

We have a nubian/boer doe that we adore, she's a great mama, she's quiet, sweet and well we ? her. She's got an extra teat on each side, they aren't right on top of each other, but they are very close and I know at least one of those extra teats is functional.
We kept her yearling daughter, she's 1x1, basically a mutt bred 50% boer doe who placed well in her classes because she was clean teated! My son has lots of blue ribbons from showing her last summer, and she's never been a great goat conformationally <she looks like her front legs are a couple of inches too short LOL, has a thinner -- nubian build>, but I know at a couple of shows she placed well because she had the best teats. 
We knew that doe wouldn't be shown again, and bred her to our buck who is 2x2 teats. She had twin doelings, 1x1 and 2x2, but the 2x2 IMO isn't as nicely structured as I'd like, but she's much closer to acceptible than questionably teated.
We got lucky with that.
The mama was bred to the same buck as her yearling doe and only one of her triplets is clean teated - 2x2, the buckling and other doeling have teats that would disqualify them from shows.
So it's just something to keep in mind when considering anything for showing. I know every state is different when it comes to showing, they may not be that picky in your state, but I thought I'd mention it anyway, just something to think about and something we didn't really know when we got into goats.
Here's a chart on teat structure from ABGA that Pam gave me the link too a while back and I always refer to this chart:
http://www.abga.org/teat-structure.php

Good Luck, and I can't wait to see how your herd grows! Every time we keep or buy a goat it's a slow upgrade for us. Our buck is what made the biggest difference. His kids are sooooo much nicer than the kids from our previous buck. So I think it's safe to say, even if you have a nice 'meaty' doe, your not going to get that meaty kid you want without a buck to influence 'size' on his kids. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Yeah, it's definitely not her greatest feature, but I figured clean teated kids could be kept as breeders or showers and send the rest to auction. Oz is a clean 1x1, so there ought to be a couple of clean kids. Addy and Bev are both 1x1, and if I'm not wrong, the new buck I'll be getting tomorrow is as well.


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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

Don't worry about Black Widow's split teat. Some teat problems are acceptable in the meat goat world. Though ABGA has changed their teat structure charts here recently. I have never dealt with kikos before but he looks to be long bodied. He's got a great topline by the way.
I really like Adeleine and her doeling. You are on your way on building a nice commercial meat goat herd!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Sorry if I sounded like I was being negative about her teats, that wasn't my intention  I just wanted to give you something to think about, especially since it was something we never thought about when we got into goats. Here, they are pretty picky and go with the IBGA/ABGA rules on teat structure in the 4-H shows. 
I think it would be great to have a commercial herd and a show herd. That's what we want to do, but don't have the land to do it 
Our nubian/boer more or less is a commercial doe. When we have kids next year for 4-H, I'm sure we'll have some market goats that are not clean teated, but I am not going to go buy them clean teated animals, that's why we have the goats we have so they can breed their own 

The thing I like the most about our kiko doe is, her feet seldom need work, in wet/rainy months she needs trimmed regular like the other girls, but her feet don't get nearly as bad as theirs. During the hot months I might trim her once or twice, usually because I am trimming everyone else so I just get her done too. 
She is getting over an upper respiratory infection <because of brutal heat and dust from dirt they were digging in>, but in the 2 years we've had her, this was the first time she'd ever needed an antibiotic - I'm sure she may not have even needed it, but with the heat we wanted to help get them over this.
She does get wormy though, so she is wormed regularly. She doesn't hold weight very good in the summer months when it's hot, or after weaning = she's a great mama. 
There is a lot I like about Kikos just from experience with the one we have.

I can't wait to see the pics of the buckling your bringing home today, it'll be fun to see who you breed the bucks too, and what they produce. Are you planning to get more does?


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Oh no, I wasn't offended, don't worry. It's really the only thing I don't like about her, and since she's more than likely just going to be raising freezer kids, I'm ok with it. I'll probably test breed her to attitude once and see how it turns out, but he's 2x2 so I most likely won't get clean kids from that crossing. I plan on using him as a terminal sire and just keeping the absolute best kid of the year and selling the rest as market kids. 4h and ffa never seem to care about teat structure around here. It's never mentioned in ads, judges never ask and never look. Once you move up past county that will most likely change, but here and the surrounding counties, it's not really a factor. They can even have full horns so long as they're tipped or rounded.

I do plan on having more does, but not any time soon. When I do, I'll be looking at kikos. I've had to trim oz twice in his life, and the second time I barely had anything to trim. He comes from some very resistant lines, as does attitude (sire is 3 years free and counting), so biweekly I've got a good hardy herd to start with.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

A rule of thumb... if you are wanting a commercial herd, teats do not matter, unless they cannot feed their kids.... The Doe with the split... may also give it to her offspring but then again ...may not ....may be hit and miss.....remember though the importance of being able to feed the kid.... You will have to breed her to a clean teated buck....in order to try to keep a lot of that out .......she may still throw them but..... it might help improve that issue...... You won't know what she will throw... until she kids and see....she may give clean teated...bad and clean...it can go any way...depending on her genetics and what she is bred to.. with his genetic back ground....


You can indeed have both show and commercial.... just try to know... what the genetics are in teat structure down the lines and you will be good to go..... :wink:


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