# Nigerian Dwarfs and/versus Pygmy Goats?



## Zarafia (Mar 25, 2012)

What I have discovered through my amature research online is that NDs are WAY more popular than Pygmy goats. Obviously that has a lot to do with all the breeding and effort that has been put into making NDs a distinct dairy breed.
It seems to me that the intensive dairy breeding has made a few other physical characteristics part of the ND breed as well. For example, my pygmy buck has a wide, thick, wedge shaped head. He has short, strong legs (truth of that he proves to me daily by pronking a good two and a half-three feet in the air. Over and over ).
Whereas my ND doe and half ND Pan have delicate, long legs and a slenderness to them (and I don't mean Summer being emaciated. I mean that Pan has a comfy layer of sub cu fat, but not a "fat" look.
Sprite (who after ten hours of research last night I now believe to be at least 75% pygmy, probably 90% or more ) represents the exact conformation, color and movement requirements of a purebred pygmy buck. But he lacks the documentation of his parentage.
I have noticed that Sprite is an easy-keeper extremely thrifty, hardy and resistant to parasites buck. That besides his small size, excellent conformation and fantastic personality make me love him SO much!
I absolutely intend to breed him to my unpapered but pb ND once she is healthy.
Summer is a goat who is unusually unthrifty and is prone to health issues. Sprite is a goat who seriously beat the odds with his neglectful upbringing. The five month old, 17lb kid that I brought home now weighs 50lbs!. He's a total beefcake and he barely eats anything.
How much better are ND udders/milk quality compared to pygmys?


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

How much better the udder and milk quality really depends on the goat. You can have a ND with horrible udder and poor milk quality and a pygmy that excels in both. Genetics and feed both play a role in what you get from the udder. I know Liz has pygmys that she milks and gets not only a great amount but good tasting milk. : )


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Meridith... I started my venture with "mini" goats in 2000 when I brought home my first doe Bootsie at 6 weeks old, I had been raised with the larger dairy goats that my mom kept and after remembering how hard it was to handle some of them because of their size...I wanted "pygmies" and because I was new to the little goats, I did not know that there was a Nigerian Dwarf out there so I was told that Bootsie was a pygmy...and thought that to be true until I got my first unregistered PB Pygmy doe Dolly a few months later. The difference between Dolly and Bootsie was easy to see...Dolly was chunky/thick all over and Bootsie had a longer more dairy like body but still had those thick short legs. Both had the "Gray Agouti" pattern common with Pygmies and when it came to them freshening, both had very capacious udders that were easy to milk as both had decent sized teats, however both lacked rear height and attachment leading to their full udders looking like upside down heart shapes. It didn't keep me from milking them though and each gave a good amount at around a quart a day of sweet, good tasting and smooth milk. 
I always found it odd though that when each doe was bred with my first buck...Skippy, who was found to be a ND/Pygmy and had a light carmel pattern, that Dolly had 1 cream colored doeling and one black doeling her FF and her second freshening brought a grey agouti buckling, a black doeling with frosted ears and a black/frosted buckling and Bootsie ended up with 4 kids, 2 freshenings all of which were cream to medium carmel...she never had a kid colored like an Agouti. I have her grand daughter, Heidi who has a pygmy build as well as the pygmy medium carmel pattern.

It was because of my love for milking as well as the milk that I wanted a true miniature dairy goat, I wanted to milk an "up there" udder and still have room under the doe for my pail as well as my hands, that was when I started to do more digging on Bootsies "unknown" other half and bought my first Registered Nigerian Dwarf doe, Binkey...though Binkey is just as tall at the shoulder as Bootsie, milking her was soooo nice! She had length of leg and height of udder to help keep milking comfortable for me and though there are a multitude of coat colors in NDG, I'm still very partial to Black and white, theres just something about a black goat that seems so elegant and streamlined  And because NDG are bred to be milk producers while keeping within the breed standard, there are alot available as those who breed strive to improve upon dairy character. With pygmies, I have seen them bred to be such small goats as adults that many have issues with deliveries, I personally prefer the Pygmy the way they started out, stout and wide but hardy goats.... I've actually sold my cross pets to an ex Pygmy breeder who got out of showing and breeding because she'd had enough of breeders trying to downsize them so she sold her registered Pygmies, save for 2 aged does and got my cross kids as well as a few ND wethers to keep as pets and loved the variations in coat color as well as the builds.
I do have Angel..her daddy was my late pygmy buck Hank and her mama is a ND/Pygmy cross, Angel is not a favorable doe to milk at all, she has just enough udder to feed her babies and that's it... 2 teats on her belly, nothing to really get a hold of and once her kids were weaned, regardless of how often a day I attempted to milk her, she'd dry up within 2-3 weeks. So because Pygmy's are not bred to be milk producers, the udders are not always favorable for milking.
 that got longer than I wanted it to but I hope I enlightened you!


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## Zarafia (Mar 25, 2012)

Liz, what you're saying makes perfect sense and confirms what I'd been suspecting.
I need to first focus on getting Summer healthy. After that Sprite will make sure she has a belly full of kids (as a FF she had triplets ).
I have no idea what her udder will look like.
But I do know that her kids will carry Sprite's strong, thrifty genes. 
Oh, how I sometimes wish that my dream of working for a UK falconry centre falls through so that I can keep my goaties forever!


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

LOL Liz! But it was informative!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Good post, Liz!

We got into Nigerian Dwarves because that is what my aunt has been raising for seven years. So we had a good head start in knowing that there was a difference between the pygmy meat breed and Nigerian dairy breed -- and we were looking for milk so guess what we went with :laugh: But as Liz has mentioned, Pygmies can also be good milkers.

I think both are adorable and sweet. I personally prefer Nigerian dwarves because I would not want a breed that is known for difficult kiddings. I'm not saying all pygmies have difficult kiddings and that Nigerians don't, but the build of the Nigerians usually makes for a smoother passage through the birth canal.

There can be frail Nigerian dwarves, but there are hardy lines as well. It depends on the breeder. I personally put hardiness and ease of kidding wayyyyyy above what's fashionable. Our two foundation does are brick walls -- easy keepers and worm resistant. Last year was my first kidding year and I made a biiig mistake -- I took away their alfalfa and they were just on hay. They were so fat I was trying to do the right thing but in reality deprived them of much needed calcium. Because of this Gypsy, my 6 yr old doe had a very hard kidding as she just didn't have the contractions she needed. She was shaking and weak and I was actually afraid to loose her after such a hard labor. But the day after she bounced back and started recovering straight away. The girl is a tank.

I think that sometimes we really mess things up as breeders when we try so hard to breed the "ideal" show goat, that we forget that what is really important isn't found in the show ring. It's their health and personality.


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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

Well said liz and Wood Haven.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Nigerian dwarfs have really taken off. I don't see as many pygmy breeders anymore. There are many nigerian breeders out there now working very hard to improve the nigerians as an all around dairy goat which is great to see. But within both breeds, each goat varies in udder and milk quality. It also depends a lot on the animal's health, feed, and evironment. Most pygmy breeders are looking more at the build of the goat than the udder since they're a meat breed. Looking at the two breeds...overall you're going to see more quality udders in nigerians vs. pygmies because of the type of breed and goals in the breeding programs. :thumb:


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

KW Farms said:


> Nigerian dwarfs have really taken off. I don't see as many pygmy breeders anymore. There are many nigerian breeders out there now working very hard to improve the nigerians as an all around dairy goat which is great to see. But within both breeds, each goat varies in udder and milk quality. It also depends a lot on the animal's health, feed, and evironment. Most pygmy breeders are looking more at the build of the goat than the udder since they're a meat breed. Looking at the two breeds...overall you're going to see more quality udders in nigerians vs. pygmies because of the type of breed and goals in the breeding programs. :thumb:


I really think it is awesome that Nigerian Dwarves are so popular now! I really love that they are a big goat in a small package. I know I wouldn't trade in mine for the world!


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## Zarafia (Mar 25, 2012)

KW Farms said:


> Nigerian dwarfs have really taken off. I don't see as many pygmy breeders anymore. There are many nigerian breeders out there now working very hard to improve the nigerians as an all around dairy goat which is great to see. But within both breeds, each goat varies in udder and milk quality. It also depends a lot on the animal's health, feed, and evironment. Most pygmy breeders are looking more at the build of the goat than the udder since they're a meat breed. Looking at the two breeds...overall you're going to see more quality udders in nigerians vs. pygmies because of the type of breed and goals in the breeding programs. :thumb:


Kylee, I think that if pygmy goats are being bred to be meat goats they will disappear within the next 20 years.
Boers, Kikos and the fainting goats are so much more popular, and for good reason if pygmies are known for kidding problems.
I kind of assumed that pygmies were being bred as pets and "weedeaters" LOL.
My incredibly limited experience has shown me that NDs (especially when bred for nothing but milk and udder quality) can result in goats who aren't especially hardy.
I know that there are many good ND breeders out there who put health before milk production! I don't want you guys to think that I believe that ND breeders want milk, milk and more milk with great udders LOL. (Actually I think that that is a great goal as long as it is coupled with strong and thrifty goats!)
I guess I'm jaded by my issues with my dear Summer, a pb ND who has a lifetime history of serious issues with parasites. I love her and she was beautiful doe before she became overridden by these hookworms aka strongyles.
Interesting and sad thing is that these "hookworms" that Summer has, that have proven resistant to ivermectin and moxidectin (cydectin), are the same kind of worm (strogyles) that Sprite came here load with.
It took one treatment of ivermectin to knock the snot out of Sprite's worms. A second dose was just to be careful.
So, either Sprite's constitution is so superior to Summer's or somehow she is finding these ivermectin/cydectin resistant worms, without either Sprite or Pan finding them. (And I am a firm believer in hybrid vigor, that could explian Pan's resistance to these worms since he's half ND half alpine).
Maybe I'm overthinking things...


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I have to wonder if Summer has Johnes ... has she been tested? I would dose her with herbal dewormer. We get our wormer from Molly Herbals and it really helped one of our does that struggled with worms. So far worms have not been able to develop resistance to the herbal wormer.

I also made a connection -- our frailer doe who struggled with worms was also our best milker. Our other does that are healthier don't milk nearly as much as she did.


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## Zarafia (Mar 25, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> I have to wonder if Summer has Johnes ... has she been tested? I would dose her with herbal dewormer. We get our wormer from Molly Herbals and it really helped one of our does that struggled with worms. So far worms have not been able to develop resistance to the herbal wormer.
> 
> I also made a connection -- our frailer doe who struggled with worms was also our best milker. Our other does that are healthier don't milk nearly as much as she did. I'm determined not to compromise health for milk. If I need more goats to get the milk I want then that's what I'm doing. I'm not going to breed frail goats. I just don't want that at all.


She has not been tested for Johnes. She has been on herbal wormers with her former owner. They didn't work. Her former owner went through all kinds of trouble trying to get her worm free.
Once I'm recovered from surgery I'll look inti getting her tested for Johnes.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I think pygmies are being bred nowdays as a mostly pet, breeding, show type goat...but they still breed for that meat goat build. You still see the thick, cobby pygmies winning in the showring because they are technically a meat goat even if they are smaller. There will probably always be quality pygmy breeders around. I'm not sure how much a pygmy would compete with a larger meat goat for those interested in meat alone. :shrug: I actually don't know of any pygmy breeders who regularly use their pygmies for meat...but then again i'm not involved in the pygmy world so maybe they are...i'm not sure. 

I think the hardiness issues you're seeing in some nigerians goes for all breeds. There are breeders out there in every breed that don't take hardiness into consideration. Some breeders have no other goal but to win in the show ring and have to baby their goats along. But many other breeders take hardiness into consideration. :thumb:


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## lissablack (Nov 30, 2009)

I think pygmies are mostly bred for pets, and they are terrific at that. I think this has been true in the US for a long time. I sure hope they don't disappear, I don't think the kinder herd is big enough to be self sustaining. I worry about this. Kinders make more milk than NDs usually, and they also are good for meat. They are a perfect homestead goat, small enough to handle relatively easily and usually good tempered. But we can't sustain them without pygmies, at least for another 20 years or more.


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