# Quick judge of this buck



## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

Got a Fullblood from a breeder and he was pretty decent when I got him, he is okay looking and does his initial job. But he seems a little on the small side for a fullblood. At his best he is at about 180lbs. I have been told that is pretty small for him. What do you guys think? He is being fed free chioce hay s well as half an acre to eat off of, he gets purina goat chow with a small handful of calf mana in it twice a day, and he has free chioce loose minerals as well as a salt lick. Buck is the one who is getting a bath he tore up his legs 2 weeks but this is the best picture I got. Have a few pictures of his babies at about 3 months, slower growth but they are only high percentage Boer Bucklings. View media item 3303View media item 3301View media item 3299View media item 3297


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

How old is the buck and how many pounds of Purina are you giving him per day? 

Fullblood does not necessarily mean better growth. And percentage does not mean slower growth. 

Do you know how much the kids weigh? Did you weigh them several times before weaning? You'd want to see ADG above 0.5 pounds per day.


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> How old is the buck and how many pounds of Purina are you giving him per day?
> 
> Fullblood does not necessarily mean better growth. And percentage does not mean slower growth.
> 
> Do you know how much the kids weigh? Did you weigh them several times before weaning? You'd want to see ADG above 0.5 pounds per day.


The buck is getting 1% of his body weight per day so a pound in the morning and about a pound at night during this time the calf mana I know is probably not doing much, it is just a little added procaution so I do tend to give him a handful of that as well. He has had no big problem with diarrhea or worms as they are taken care of asap.

The Bucklings are getting about 1.5% as directed only fed in the morning with a small handful of calf mana at 35lb now and body weight at birth was 9.5lbs so not too worried about them as I know they are growing pretty well just about 4lbs slower maybe when they hit 3 months.

I did get her half sister from the breeder as well and I do know that not every goat turns out the way you expect but at this point I am finding a new breeder. The question at hand is should I look for another buck or does this guy seem like a keeper? I am on the fence on this...

His half sister at 1.5years weighing in at a lovely 40lbs, this is no joke I have a pygmy fullblood mascot .


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Again, how old is the Buck?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

The torn up legs on the buck is a mite infestation. Be sure to apply ivermectin pour on or inject Ivermectin subcutaneously to treat that. 

If the two bucklings are 35 pounds at 3 months and weighed 9.5 pounds at birth then there ADG (average daily gain) is only around 0.3 pounds per day. That's very poor for Boers. They appear to have very round stomachs in the photos so I would be sure to treat them for tapeworms. And maybe have a fecal analysis to the vet to check for any other parasites. 

Most Boer breeders achieve growth of greater than 0.5 lbs per day in their kids by using a creep feeder (AKA: a place that has grain available free choice to the kids but blocks out adults). It's tough to say if genetics are at fault for their slow growth or not. 

I would personally give the buck another chance to see what he can produce if he has a decent temperament. He doesn't appear poorly put together and 180lbs is not a bad weight. It does seem like he has a very steep rump so that's a trait to avoid in does you breed to him.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

please dont see this as disrespectful or rude, but as a small time % Boer breeder this is what I see, if you decide to breed/keep them I'm all for you...

40 lbs at 1.5 years? parasites and cocci come to mind, but this line wouldn't be for me IMO, I dont raise FBs just 50% or 75% I personally like them to be 40+ lbs by 3 months, my best 50% was 100 lbs at 5 months, 200 lbs by 1 year (Letty) breeding small animals together is how they make tiny minis, aka how did they breed a chihuahua from a wolf? by breeding smaller dogs together over centuries, not what we are trying to get from our meat goats, 180 lbs is not bad, but I would only breed that weight if it was a doe not a buck, IMO bucks should be at least 200 lbs to fit my breeding program, I like them more, if he is 1 year or under I would keep him, that weight is fine, 2 or over IMO I wouldn't, the doe, not for me, the kids, slow, but they may be just fine when they are adults

I cant advise on the feeding program as I dont feed grain to boys, only nursing/milking moms, rarely do the kids get it, Letty did as a kid, but I dont creep feed them


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

spidy1 said:


> please dont see this as disrespectful or rude, but as a small time % Boer breeder this is what I see, if you decide to breed/keep them I'm all for you...
> 
> 40 lbs at 1.5 years? parasites and cocci come to mind, but this line wouldn't be for me IMO, I dont raise FBs just 50% or 75% I personally like them to be 40+ lbs by 3 months, my best 50% was 100 lbs at 5 months, 200 lbs by 1 year (Letty) breeding small animals together is how they make tiny minis, aka how did they breed a chihuahua from a wolf? by breeding smaller dogs together over centuries, not what we are trying to get from our meat goats, 180 lbs is not bad, but I would only breed that weight if it was a doe not a buck, IMO bucks should be at least 200 lbs to fit my breeding program, I like them more, if he is 1 year or under I would keep him, that weight is fine, 2 or over IMO I wouldn't, the doe, not for me, the kids, slow, but they may be just fine when they are adults
> 
> I cant advise on the feeding program as I dont feed grain to boys, only nursing/milking moms, rarely do the kids get it, Letty did as a kid, but I dont creep feed them


The doe in question (wish) at 1.5 years is definitely not being bred she if I had full say in the matter, she would be culled. But as it stands she is my mother's favorite and she has begged me not to get rid of her. A ton of times I have found them out in the pastures napping. Wish basically stopped growing at the age of two months and was taken to the vet to asses the issue at two and a half months. She did have her poop checked and an exam done vet found no parasites and nothing initially wrong with her as I thought coccidia at the time. We have taken great care to not breed her.

Thank you for the info I was struggling for a while with this as I knew they did seem to have issues with weight the one doe he is breeding is 7/8ths Boer with a better back and we are changing out and breeding better, just a slow process. Just was trying to figure out if I should change out the buck as I like his front but I knew I could do better.


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> The torn up legs on the buck is a mite infestation. Be sure to apply ivermectin pour on or inject Ivermectin subcutaneously to treat that.
> 
> If the two bucklings are 35 pounds at 3 months and weighed 9.5 pounds at birth then there ADG (average daily gain) is only around 0.3 pounds per day. That's very poor for Boers. They appear to have very round stomachs in the photos so I would be sure to treat them for tapeworms. And maybe have a fecal analysis to the vet to check for any other parasites.
> 
> ...


The torn up legs were delt with two weeks ago he was given a bath and dewormed at that time. He has hair there now this was just a good picture for you guys to see and I can say he is 178.6lb in the picture. Bucks have been weaned now in a separate pasture and have no worms as of last week via fecal exam. They were a bit hunched in that pic but they do have weird sitting bellys thanks for the info.


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> Again, how old is the Buck?


2 years and 8 months.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with the others.

2 years and 8 months is small for his age.


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

Little update on the little ones from this guy, they are about 6 months now and have not been growing, they are on a high protein diet, no coccidia, I have nubian kids running about younger then these guys and bigger! Have younger fullblood does 45lbs at 2 and a half months and 69lbs at 4 and a half! At least I castrated the Bucklings. Thankfully I dodged a bullet not breeding him again, thank you everyone for your assistance.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Hi, nice to see you!  Is that buck still itching?

Did you say high protein? How about making the rumen work well, have you offered twigs, grass, hay?


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> Hi, nice to see you!  Is that buck still itching?
> 
> Did you say high protein? How about making the rumen work well, have you offered twigs, grass, hay?


They still get free chioce hay and minerals as well as half an acre to graze on, the buck is fine he has all his fur and lost his thick winter coat all the way. When say high protein I mean their grain is high protein and they do have a protein pail out there just in case they haven't really touched it. Led-zeppelin our younger Dairy Buck is showing off the field that they graze in. These are our Nubian Doe's next to their mom they're about two days apart from the Bucks and are about twice their size. Our 7/8th Boer doe who is about 150 lb. And last but not least one of our bucklings about two months younger and from our worst Dairy goat is about the same size as the biggest Buckling. They do have some ruff bushes taking over the fields but it is not a a lot compared too the amount of field.


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

When I say worst Dairy goat, I mean it, Bucklings had to be supplemented at about 1 month because mom did not have enough milk so they are growing slower as well. That is just sad for a dairy goat.  here is a recent picture of her as well just for kicks, same dad as the does in the last picture led zepplin makes good sturdy babies.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Hmmm... I'd have to read through again (getting ready to leave so no time) but wanted to give my opinion. Unless the weather is cooler in your area, I'd think there is something amiss. They have rough looking coats. Are you giving copper bolus? Checking fecals to ensure there are no underlying issues and making sure your using the correct dewormers to eradicate everything?
This time of year they should have sleek coats. We've had to copper bolus, and honestly still feel like some need more.

180lbs is definitely small for a fullblood Boer buck. I honestly am not a fan of his rear end from mid back backwards - front I like him. Maybe it's the way he stands in the photos and the angle of the photo? 

If your wanting quality, I'd consider buck shopping (sorry!), but if you are okay with his kids, and are just raising for meat, then I would keep him and raise meat. 

IMO to achieve good growth, you need the genetics, a good feed & deworming program. We all run into issues. We do creep feed our kids to try and get them to grow well. Usually at around 5mo our fast growing buck kids are around 100-115lbs. Currently our slow growing bucks who just turned 3mo the other day are right at 60lbs (one did get hurt and lost condition/starting to gain again). 3 1/2mo buck 75lbs. 10mo bucks are right at 180lbs (and have not been eating as well due to show stress/heat so one has lost condition).
If anything, I would want a buck 2yo to be at least 250lbs. But again, that's just my opinion and we raise a small herd so that my kids can breed/raise/show their goats. We don't have a fancy Boer goat herd, our goats aren't perfect either. But just wanted to give my opinion. I love the little doe, sorry she is stunted and didn't grow, she is cute. We have a smaller Boer doe that is my baby, she is on a diet, as she is chunky, but she is not a large framed doe - love her build but wish she was bigger boned/taller/etc. Praying when we breed her the bucks compliment her kids and we have no issues.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:up:


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

:up: me second


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

HoosierShadow said:


> Hmmm... I'd have to read through again (getting ready to leave so no time) but wanted to give my opinion. Unless the weather is cooler in your area, I'd think there is something amiss. They have rough looking coats. Are you giving copper bolus? Checking fecals to ensure there are no underlying issues and making sure your using the correct dewormers to eradicate everything?
> This time of year they should have sleek coats. We've had to copper bolus, and honestly still feel like some need more.
> 
> 180lbs is definitely small for a fullblood Boer buck. I honestly am not a fan of his rear end from mid back backwards - front I like him. Maybe it's the way he stands in the photos and the angle of the photo?
> ...


We live on the rainy side of Washington state so this is actually like our first week of full sunshine! The last to shed their winter coat is Frodo the little Buckling in the picture with his dad, the coats of the others are quite smooth and soft now with the exception of our worst looking dairy goat. Heard of copper bolus but never have done it, not really against it or anything just never had a reason to do it as the only slow growth goats we have had are well related to this buck in some way. We do have loose minerals as well as a goat block and mineral block for the goats to choose from. I feel like I feed my goats better than I do myself. Regular fecal tests are done and most of the time come back negative. Yes the buck also has a rump hump  another reason why we are getting rid of him. I have seen some beautiful goats grow slower but look better. I don't think this is one of those times.... Jubalee the dairy goat is another problem, she was given to me as a 4 1/2 month pregnant dairy goat, she did look pregnant with one kid. In two days of having her, she blew up like a balloon and a week later she had three kids. Two kids were 4lb and one 5lb, no contractions and all died very fast within 6 months, the biggest survived the longest. Vet said it was a prenatal infection causing the kids to have a weak immune system as well as they were malnourished in the womb. Bred her for the benefit of the doubt because yes she had an infection. Birth was very normal this time around and she had two healthy boys the spotted fluff ball that is bigger than frodo and two months younger, just not enough milk to keep them on her so she is not being bred again. Thankfully every one of my goats that are not related to the buck in question are growing wonderfully! As I had first thought that I too was missing something, I think I am going to rule genetics as the outlier. though I will try the bolus to see if it helps I do like her a lot still and if it just fixes her hair or help her out a ton  that is still better. I'll keep you posted.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Your county extension agent would be able to tell you if you are lacking any minerals or nutrients in your area. A blood sample sent in to a lab will tell specifics on your goats' mineral levels, to know for sure that it is genetics affecting your different unrelated goats.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Correcting mineral deficiencies may fix a lot of your issues. For the dairy goat, low milk production can be caused by a selenium deficiency. 

How did your vet confirm that the triplets were exposed in-utero to infection causing weak immune systems? I don't feel very confident about that conclusion. 

Unfortunately, loose minerals and good forage and feed are just not enough, additional mineral supplementation is needed in every herd in the U.S. Ask your veterinarian about getting a prescription for MultiMin 90 injectable, or consider ordering Copper Bolus and Selenium/Vit E gel or Replamin plus paste.


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

That is a really good idea, I will try doing the 
Blood test and see if I cant get a hold of someone.


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Correcting mineral deficiencies may fix a lot of your issues. For the dairy goat, low milk production can be caused by a selenium deficiency.
> 
> How did your vet confirm that the triplets were exposed in-utero to infection causing weak immune systems? I don't feel very confident about that conclusion.
> 
> Unfortunately, loose minerals and good forage and feed are just not enough, additional mineral supplementation is needed in every herd in the U.S. Ask your veterinarian about getting a prescription for MultiMin 90 injectable, or consider ordering Copper Bolus and Selenium/Vit E gel or Replamin plus paste.


 I did say I would try the copper bolus, I mean it cant hurt. 

As for the the triplets, based on the blood test confirming the week immune system and the slight greenish tint to the mucus plug it was a inference... Although if you would like an in depth story on the birth, it was a very strange one for me as obviously the strage color was a red flag and the very mild contractions stopping with the second kid... one had slightly bowed legs all including the mother were given bose and vitamin injections. We took home the weakest to be bottle fed, and he stayed in our house for about a month and a half before taken back to his sisters to be fed with them as the mother could not produce enough milk. He died 3 weeks later showing no signs that we could see of having any problems (bright eyed, jumping around, nice and pink, good burps, soft fur, fighting with sisters.) Even have a picture of him photo bombing a buisness picture the day before death not a very good picture of him... Unfortunately was unable to get a necropsy done on him and I am a wimp about doing my own necropsy so even though I was shocked, I do not know what happened to him. The kids already were in separate pens from the rest of the herd so there was a deep clean of everything and the kids were placed in a new separate pen kids were checked out by the vet a week later doing a blood test and finding the strange immune system. After that, they stayed in that stall away from the outside world, getting extra vitamins and minerals everyday via pill form. One caught a cold witch turned into pneumonia and even with the help of antibiotics died. The other got a case of stomach worms that slowly ate her and we ended putting her down as her immune system could not fight it off and she was getting weaker by the day. They had a lot coming against them when they first started out I'm surprised that's the mom survived! The one eating with wish a few days before she was put down was the oldest she lived about 3 months and the two black goats in the goat pile are the two girls taken about a week before we moved the group. Sorry for not taking decent pictures.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

That was a terrible experience for you, I am sorry it happened to them. Did your vet ever figure out where her infection could have come from?
A forty pound fullblood fullgrown boer is one heck of an oddity.


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## Got2goatherd (May 14, 2019)

Unfortunately we had gotten her at four and a half months pregnant, I have no idea when this could have happened she did not seem sickly when I got her, I only noticed that they were not feeding her properly when she blew up two days after getting her. Her fur did start to become rough the day before she gave birth. She did need a hoof trim like really bad when I got her, although I have come to find out that she grows her feet out super fast. The vet has only the blood tests and the checkups on all of the kids and the mother (thankfully mom did not get any immune problem) and a couple of pictures I gave him of the labor. He did tell me never to breed her and the buck that produced the kids with her together just in case it was a genetic problem as our goal is not to ever do this again. We do not own the buck but I do have a picture of his papers just in case.

Wishes size is very concerning yes, I have never heard anything like it at all. I did not do any blood tests on her yet though and as of today I have given everyone except the two Doe's that I bought two months ago as I do not know if they have gotten any, copper bolus.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

That is right, I would never want her to go through that again, or you either.
I am going to go see Professor Google, and see if he has any info on dwarfism in boers.


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