# Deciding Between My Bucks + Kinder Conformation



## MellonFriend

Alright, here are my two kinder bucks, Phantom and Cullen. I had my sister who's never taken a goat conformation picture before behind the camera, and my bucks told me that I was crazy if I thought I was going to adjust their legs, so hopefully these pictures are good enough.😅 I'm currently thinking about adding a buck (news on that after the pictures), and if I decide I only want to keep two bucks at a time, one of these guys might need to go. They are full brothers so it doesn't really make sense to me to keep them both. I'm sorry about the hair on their toplines, I didn't take the time to shave them, and now seeing these pictures, I probably should have done that. 

@Dandy Hill Farm and @Jubillee, I would love if you both would take a look. 

Without further ado, here's Phantom first (I'll put Cullen on the second post):
Ugh, those legs just aren't in the right places.😬























No, he is not pregnant, neither did he swallow a basketball. 😆


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## MellonFriend

Here's Cullen:
















That's my anatolian, Nova photo bombing in the background.









So I contacted the breeder I got these boys from and told her that I was looking for a buck that would give me better udder attachments, width and maybe some higher escutcheons to improve on my does. Turns out she herself is currently buck hunting for a match for two doelings she got from terrific bloodlines all the way from WI (the breeder is in GA). These does will be kidding first in 2023 and they would probably give me what I'm looking for. She showed me pictures of their dam's udders and let me tell you, the one was the best udder I've seen on a kinder. I imagine I will be waiting until 2023 to get a buckling out of one of these does, because they look outstanding.

So let me know what you think of my boys, and which do you like more?


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## K.B.

Honestly I love the second one.. not the pot belly sorry... he's more streamlined... both handsome bucks though! I'm not the best at conformation!


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## Jubillee

Phantom has a nice healthy rumen going on there!! 😂 I like his width/arch in the escutcheon area. He looks like he might have a bit more rump width than his brother...

However Cullen looks like he might be a bit more blended into the neck/shoulders and a better topline...he also has better leg angulation. Also better brisket. His back legs are straighter too whereas Phantoms hock in and he toes out.

I prefer Cullen a lot more but wish he had the rump width that Phantom has. Is it a lighting/color trick or is Phantom def wider? Overall, I think Cullen would improve better.


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## MellonFriend

Jubillee said:


> I prefer Cullen a lot more but wish he had the rump width that Phantom has. Is it a lighting/color trick or is Phantom def wider?


Oh Phantom is absolutely wider. It's quite drastic. I really like how balanced Cullen looks too. Murphy is out of Phantom so maybe if I breed her to Cullen that will give the best of both worlds. Thanks so much for your opinion!


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## K.B.

MellonFriend said:


> Oh Phantom is absolutely wider. It's quite drastic. I really like how balanced Cullen looks too. Murphy is out of Phantom so maybe if I breed her to Cullen that will give the best of both worlds. Thanks so much for your opinion!


So niece to uncle  that may bring out best in both


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## Lil Boogie

MellonFriend said:


> Here's Cullen:
> View attachment 213724
> View attachment 213725
> 
> 
> That's my anatolian, Nova photo bombing in the background.
> View attachment 213727
> 
> 
> So I contacted the breeder I got these boys from and told her that I was looking for a buck that would give me better udder attachments, width and maybe some higher escutcheons to improve on my does. Turns out she herself is currently buck hunting for a match for two doelings she got from terrific bloodlines all the way from WI (the breeder is in GA). These does will be kidding first in 2023 and they would probably give me what I'm looking for. She showed me pictures of their dam's udders and let me tell you, the one was the best udder I've seen on a kinder. I imagine I will be waiting until 2023 to get a buckling out of one of these does, because they look outstanding.
> 
> So let me know what you think of my boys, and which do you like more?


The breeder you got your boys from is in ga?


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## MellonFriend

Lil Boogie said:


> The breeder you got your boys from is in ga?


Yes she is, she's in the northern GA.


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## Lil Boogie

I do love Cullen. He is the one id pick if i were to buy one of the two.


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## Lil Boogie

MellonFriend said:


> Yes she is, she's in the northern GA.


Oh cool! Im in NW Ga!😀


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## MellonFriend

Lil Boogie said:


> Oh cool! Im in NW Ga!😀


You are! Then you aren't terribly far from me! I'm in south-western NC!


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## Jubillee

MellonFriend said:


> Oh Phantom is absolutely wider. It's quite drastic. I really like how balanced Cullen looks too. Murphy is out of Phantom so maybe if I breed her to Cullen that will give the best of both worlds. Thanks so much for your opinion!


I think that would be good. If you like the resulting buck (he is built like Cullen but wide), you could keep him and send the other two on and have him as well as the new buck you'd get. Is that allowed within the kinder breeding specifications? Because he'd be a 2nd generation, yes?


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## Jubillee

Can you post Murphy's pic again, now seeing the boys, I'd like to see how she compares.


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## DDFN

The second (Cullen) would be my pick. Had me at his topline. No offense phantom.


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## Kaitlyn

Although I’m no expert with conformation, I’d have to choose Cullen like the rest!


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## Dandy Hill Farm

I too like Cullen over Phantom!! Cullen is much more balanced and blended than Phantom, IMHO. Cullen also has better rear leg angulation, pasterns, topline, brisket, and his front legs are placed a bit farther back then his brother's. Width is the thing I'm seeing that Phantom "beats" Cullen at. Overall, (like everyone else said) Cullen is definitely the better buck. I find it very interesting how different they are built despite the fact that they are FULL brothers!! Crazy!

Love Nova!! She's very beautiful!!

Yay, I'm so happy that your boys' breeder will most likely have the perfect buckling to improve your herd!! How awesome!! 

I also wanted to point out how amazingly healthy and shiny you boys' coats are!! Great job! 🤩


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## MellonFriend

Jubillee said:


> I think that would be good. If you like the resulting buck (he is built like Cullen but wide), you could keep him and send the other two on and have him as well as the new buck you'd get. Is that allowed within the kinder breeding specifications? Because he'd be a 2nd generation, yes?


That is an amazing idea. That is probably what I'll do! I had never thought of that, so thanks a ton!

@Dandy Hill Farm, I'm glad to hear that you agree. It is crazy isn't it at how different they are. I don't know if you noticed this from the pictures, but Phantom is even a great deal shorter than Cullen. I am super excited what my breeder will have for me. Thanks so much for your insight! 

I will some get new pictures of Murphy tomorrow. I want to try to stack her. She'll probably let me. I might end up sharing my two adult does too. 😏


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## Dandy Hill Farm

MellonFriend said:


> @Dandy Hill Farm, I'm glad to hear that you agree. It is crazy isn't it at how different they are. I don't know if you noticed this from the pictures, but Phantom is even a great deal shorter than Cullen. I am super excited what my breeder will have for me. Thanks so much for your insight!


I did notice that! So crazy!! You're welcome!! 🥰 


MellonFriend said:


> I will some get new pictures of Murphy tomorrow. I want to try to stack her. She'll probably let me. I might end up sharing my two adult does too. 😏


Can't wait to see Murphy's pictures!! And you definitely should get pictures of Prim and Bella too!! I love seeing your beautiful goats, Kinders really are such an awesome breed, I hope they became more popular soon!!

Oh, and I also want to say that I think you did a really good job with stacking your boys! 😁 Especially if it was your first time...my first time didn't go well at all (and that's an understatement). 😬😅


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## MellonFriend

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Oh, and I also want to say that I think you did a really good job with stacking your boys!


Stacking? There was no stacking! 😆 I did absolutely no touching of any legs. Phantom especially would not have that. He was sure I must be about to do something terrible to him. I only manipulated them by having them step forward or backward with the treats.


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## Dandy Hill Farm

MellonFriend said:


> Stacking? There was no stacking! 😆 I did absolutely no touching of any legs. Phantom especially would not have that. He was sure I must be about to do something terrible to him. I only manipulated them by having them step forward or backward with the treats.


LOL!! That's pretty much all I did for Tater, boys must be easier to stack because my girls were just NOT having it!! Good luck with your girls tomorrow, I hope they behave better than mine did and you don't have to try three times or go through 400+ pictures just to get a few half decent ones!! Sorry not very encouraging!! But really, Tater was SO much easier, one try, only 10 pictures and the 2 good ones were way better than any of my does'!! 😅


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## Rancho Draco

It really is crazy how different they are! I would have to go with Cullen as well. I think he has better qualities overall even though Phantom has him beat in width and arch through the escutcheon. That being said, I would take either over my boy! Haha


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## MellonFriend

Well, hopefully I can get pictures of my does tomorrow. I forgot that I had errands to run today. I should be able to wrangle my sister into helping me tomorrow. 🤔


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## FizzyGoats

Those are both nice looking bucks (in my admittedly novice opinion). I have no expertise, but something about the second one drew my eye more. 

I can’t wait to see pics of the girls. Your goats are all so shiny and pretty. 

I feel like I’ve become a kinder peddler on FB. People will ask what kind of goat they should get and outline what they want, and I’m often saying, “You should look into kinders.” And I don’t even have them.


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## MellonFriend

FizzyGoats said:


> I feel like I’ve become a kinder peddler on FB. People will ask what kind of goat they should get and outline what they want, and I’m often saying, “You should look into kinders.” And I don’t even have them.


I really appreciate you doing that! Kinders need more attention!


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## Cedarwinds Farm

Are you focused mostly on dairy, or are you wanting to focus on meat, too? Because Phantom looks a lot heftier and more meaty to me, whereas Cullen seems to have that more streamlined dairy look.


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## MellonFriend

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> Are you focused mostly on dairy, or are you wanting to focus on meat, too? Because Phantom looks a lot heftier and more meaty to me, whereas Cullen seems to have that more streamlined dairy look.


I'm looking for both, so that is a good point. I too felt that Phantom was meatier.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> I'm looking for both, so that is a good point. I too felt that Phantom was meatier.


That is another thing that I think Phantom is much nicer on. I think that kids from a Murphy x Cullen breeding would be good to see. If you could get a buckling from them with the Phantom/Murphy bulk on a Cullen frame you would have a great thing going!


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## MellonFriend

Here they are, @Dandy Hill Farm, @Jubillee, and everyone else.

Murphy first because, well, I love her. Excuse the fishtail, she's due for copper. She's seven months by the way















She had that one foot kind of crooked, I swear she doesn't toe out that much.


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## MellonFriend

Here's Bella the herd queen who got her neck shaved from the blood drawing adventure this morning. Here teats are also taped because her son is convinced he is not weaned.









Her rear end was tough to photograph because she's so black!








Here's an action shot.


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## MellonFriend

And finally Prim. She didn't want to be facing the same direction as the other two. If that's a problem, I can flip the image.


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## Dandy Hill Farm

Pretty girls!! Is Bella Murphy's dam?


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## MellonFriend

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Pretty girls!! Is Bella Murphy's dam?


Yes, she is. 😊


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## Dandy Hill Farm

MellonFriend said:


> Yes, she is. 😊


I think she is very much built like her momma and I LOVE her moonspots!! Do you know where the moonspots came from (Bella or Phantom)?

I remember you mentioning in another thread that you want to see a "meaty triangle" in Kinders, I can definitely one in Prim!!

Also, are you looking for critiques on your girls? I feel critiques can be a little rude when not asked for and I'm not sure if you are wanting people to critique your girls or not. 😊


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## MellonFriend

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I think she is very much built like her momma and I LOVE her moonspots!! Do you know where the moonspots came from (Bella or Phantom)?
> 
> I remember you mentioning in another thread that you want to see a "meaty triangle" in Kinders, I can definitely one in Prim!!
> 
> Also, are you looking for critiques on your girls? I feel critiques can be a little rude when not asked for and I'm not sure if you are wanting people to critique your girls or not. 😊


I absolutely want you to critique them! That is why I took their pictures! 😄

I originally believed that the moonspots came from Phantom. He has a cream patch over the left side of his face, not visible in the pictures I took of him above. But, when doing some digging into my girls' pedigreed I found out that Bella's grand-dam had moonspots so they may have come from Bella after all. I can't get enough of the way Murph looks color wise. I think she is the most gorgeous colored goat I have ever seen.

And yes, kinders should be meaty triangles, so it's great to see that you see Prim's shape that way!


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> I absolutely want you to critique them! That is why I took their pictures! 😄
> 
> I originally believed that the moonspots came from Phantom. He has a cream patch over the left side of his face, not visible in the pictures I took of him above. But, when doing some digging into my girls' pedigreed I found out that Bella's grand-dam had moonspots so they may have come from Bella after all. I can't get enough of the way Murph looks color wise. I think she is the most gorgeous colored goat I have ever seen.
> 
> And yes, kinders should be meaty triangles, so it's great to see that you see Prim's shape that way!


I always have to think of my doe Serenity when I see Murphy. She doesn't have any moonspots but she has the frosted ears and red on the legs like your girl. And she has a huge basketball belly😂. The picture is right away in the morning so it's as flat as she gets. I wish I had a good picture of her pregnant with her quads!!


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## Dandy Hill Farm

MellonFriend said:


> I originally believed that the moonspots came from Phantom. He has a cream patch over the left side of his face, not visible in the pictures I took of him above. But, when doing some digging into my girls' pedigreed I found out that Bella's grand-dam had moonspots so they may have come from Bella after all. I can't get enough of the way Murph looks color wise. I think she is the most gorgeous colored goat I have ever seen.


Interesting. Murphy really is stunning!!

Here's what I see..

Murphy:

Keep in mind that she could still change as she grows.

Pros:
Strong pasterns
Great width
Nice body length and depth
Front legs are decently placed under shoulders (could be a little farther back though)
Nice brisket extension (I've heard more can come with age)
Tight shoulders
Neck blends smoothly into shoulders
Rear leg angulation

Cons:
Short, steep rump
Weak chine
Roached loin
Legs/feet toe out

Bella:

Pros:
Great brisket extension
Tight shoulders
Neck blends smoothly into shoulders
Front legs are place well under shoulders
Great rear leg angulation
Strong back pasterns
Straight legs/feet (they don't toe out)
Great body length, width, and depth

Cons:
Steep, steep rump
Weak front pasterns
Weak chine

Prim:

Pros:
Strong pasterns
Tight shoulders
Neck blends smoothly into shoulders
Front legs are decently placed under shoulders
Okay brisket extension
Great body length, depth, and width

Cons:
Legs/feet toe out
Weak chine
Short, steep rump
Posty rear legs


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## Jubillee

Wow that width on Murphy!  She def got that from Phantom, but she got his topline too. I def think you should breed her to Cullen and if she has an improved buckling for you, keep him!


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## Jubillee

Width is a huge thing for my herd too so when I see wide girls I love it! Lol.


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## Dandy Hill Farm

Jubillee said:


> Wow that width on Murphy!  She def got that from Phantom, but she got his topline too. I def think you should breed her to Cullen and if she has an improved buckling for you, keep him!


I agree!!


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## MellonFriend

Thank you both so, so much for your insight. Which doe would you say you like more?

Also what is a roached loin? I've heard of that, but I don't exactly know what it means.


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## Kaitlyn

MellonFriend said:


> Thank you both so, so much for your insight. Which doe would you say you like more?
> 
> Also what is a roached loin? I've heard of that, but I don't exactly know what it means.


Forgive me if I’m wrong (I’m still learning) but I _THINK_ it’s the spot on their backs that’s right behind the chine.


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## Kaitlyn

Kaitlyn said:


> Forgive me if I’m wrong (I’m still learning) but I _THINK_ it’s the spot on their backs that’s right behind the chine.


Oh my goodness I’m silly. ignore 😂


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## MellonFriend

Kaitlyn said:


> Oh my goodness I’m silly. ignore 😂


You're good. We are all learning here. 😄


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Thank you both so, so much for your insight. Which doe would you say you like more?
> 
> Also what is a roached loin? I've heard of that, but I don't exactly know what it means.


If I am wrong I hope someone corrects me but my understanding is that a roached loin is when the loin, the length of spine behind the chine, arches up. It looks like a weak chine in reverse if that makes sense. A weak chine can make it worse because you have a "valley" with the chine and a "hill" with the loin.


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## Lil Boogie

I love prim!!!! what a pretty girl!! Looks like this doe I used to have! Lol...not really but kinda? Lol


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## Dandy Hill Farm

I find it a little hard to explain a roached loin, but I think @Rancho Draco did a good job explaining it. There is also a section about loins here https://cornerstonefarm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Easy-Dairy-Goat-Conformation.pdf visuals are always helpful for me. 😁

Weak chines and/or steep rumps can also make their loin look roached even when it's really not. It can go the other way too, a roached loin can give the make it seem that a goat has a weak chine and/or steep rump when they really don't.


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I find it a little hard to explain a roached loin, but I think @Rancho Draco did a good job explaining it. There is also a section about loins here https://cornerstonefarm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Easy-Dairy-Goat-Conformation.pdf visuals are always helpful for me. 😁


You beat me to it! I was trying to link that but my phone wasn't liking that it was a PDF file and wouldn't let me. I personally learned a lot about conformation from that.


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## MellonFriend

Okay, I think I understand. Thanks you two.

I still want to hear which doe you both prefer! 😁


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## Dandy Hill Farm

Rancho Draco said:


> You beat me to it! I was trying to link that but my phone wasn't liking that it was a PDF file and wouldn't let me. I personally learned a lot about conformation from that.


It really does have AWESOME information!! I love it!


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Okay, I think I understand. Thanks you two.
> 
> I still want to hear which doe you both prefer! 😁


I think I would have to go with Bella. Her rump and chine need work but she has stronger qualities than Prim. I also really don't like Prim's back legs. 

That being said I love a brown goat so Prim has Bella beat there!!!😍


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## Dandy Hill Farm

MellonFriend said:


> I still want to hear which doe you both prefer! 😁


Well, I don't think it's fair for Murph to "compete" against the big girls so she's my favorite doeling!! As for body conformation, Bella would be my pick. I think she is just better put together, better rear leg angulation, stronger pasterns, more brisket extension, front legs are placed better, her legs don't toe out, etc. But as for udder conformation and a good "meaty triangle" build, Prim wins! IMHO, each of your beautiful girls have their own pros and cons. 🥰


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Well, I don't think it's fair for Murph to "compete" against the big girls so she's my favorite doeling!! As for body conformation, Bella would be my pick. I think she is just better put together, better rear leg angulation, stronger pasterns, more brisket extension, front legs are placed better, her legs don't toe out, etc. But as for udder conformation and a good "meaty triangle" build, Prim wins! IMHO, each of your beautiful girls have their own pros and cons. 🥰


I agree on all points here!


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## MellonFriend

That's really good to hear.


Dandy Hill Farm said:


> IMHO, each of your beautiful girls have their own pros and cons. 🥰


That's really good to hear. This thread has been so supremely helpful to me. I can't believe how hard it can be to judge your own does when you see them every day. I generally consider Prim to be my better conformed doe, but I think I've been short changing Bella.

Some pros and cons you guys cant see are Prim produces generally about a half a pound of milk more than Bella throughout her lactation, Bella is much more parasite resistant than Prim, and Bella kept her weight a _lot _better than Prim post pregnancy and into lactation. Also Bella has an awesome personality whereas Prim is rather difficult to work with. Bella is extremely forgiving, affectionate, curious and all those easy-going characteristics she passed on to Murphy. Bella was absolutely my favorite for personality until Murph came along and stole the show.😙

Another interesting point about Phantom's offspring is that out of all his kids Murphy had by far the kookiest topline. Murphy's full brother has none of the topline faults that Murphy has. Prim's kids out of Phantom were really nice too. Prim's doeling was very wide, very meaty and had overall better conformation than Murphy. I couldn't pick her though because she unfortunately shared Prim's skittish personality and didn't have Murphy's amazing coloration. Prim's buckling honestly looked a lot like Cullen. He was narrow, really long in the body and long legged. It will be very interesting to see what Cullen's first kids look like in comparison this spring.


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## Goatastic43

Sorry no confirmation advice here….still trying to learn!

What I wanted to say was, Prim is looking really good now! She so silky looking and heavier (in a good way lol) compared to when I last saw pics of her!


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> That's really good to hear.
> 
> That's really good to hear. This thread has been so supremely helpful to me. I can't believe how hard it can be to judge your own does when you see them every day. I generally consider Prim to be my better conformed doe, but I think I've been short changing Bella.
> 
> Some pros and cons you guys cant see are Prim produces generally about a half a pound of milk more than Bella throughout her lactation, Bella is much more parasite resistant than Prim, and Bella kept her weight a _lot _better than Prim post pregnancy and into lactation. Also Bella has an awesome personality whereas Prim is rather difficult to work with. Bella is extremely forgiving, affectionate, curious and all those easy-going characteristics she passed on to Murphy. Bella was absolutely my favorite for personality until Murph came along and stole the show.😙
> 
> Another interesting point about Phantom's offspring is that out of all his kids Murphy had by far the kookiest topline. Murphy's full brother has none of the topline faults that Murphy has. Prim's kids out of Phantom were really nice too. Prim's doeling was very wide, very meaty and had overall better conformation than Murphy. I couldn't pick her though because she unfortunately shared Prim's skittish personality and didn't have Murphy's amazing coloration. Prim's buckling honestly looked a lot like Cullen. He was narrow, really long in the body and long legged. It will be very interesting to see what Cullen's first kids look like in comparison this spring.


The things you can't see can be so much more important sometimes! My doe Serenity is a jerk to everything but people, is a total diva, is my hardest keeper in terms of weight and mineral needs, and is skittish. She is also a fine enough mother but really doesn't like her kids. On the other hand, she is my heaviest and most reliable producer(although I'm rooting for Red to beat her out of that spot next year). Serenity's doeling takes after her personality and because of it she just cannot stay. I had to train Serenity to a milk stand and I never want to do that again. Serenity still freaks on the stand the moment she runs out of food.


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## MellonFriend

Goatastic43 said:


> Sorry no confirmation advice here….still trying to learn!
> 
> What I wanted to say was, Prim is looking really good now! She so silky looking and heavier (in a good way lol) compared to when I last saw pics of her!


Thank you so much for noticing! It sure was a long road to get her back in this condition.



Rancho Draco said:


> The things you can't see can be so much more important sometimes! My doe Serenity is a jerk to everything but people, is a total diva, is my hardest keeper in terms of weight and mineral needs, and is skittish. She is also a fine enough mother but really doesn't like her kids. On the other hand, she is my heaviest and most reliable producer(although I'm rooting for Red to beat her out of that spot next year). Serenity's doeling takes after her personality and because of it she just cannot stay. I had to train Serenity to a milk stand and I never want to do that again. Serenity still freaks on the stand the moment she runs out of food.


I totally understand not wanting to keep a doe because of her personality. Prim really tests my patience sometimes. It's just not as pleasant working with a doe you know doesn't like you all that much. Why do the difficult ones always have to produce more? 😌 Prim will be here for the long haul though, because I really do love her milk production and udder qualities. She is very easy to milk. Extremely soft, supple skin that makes milking a dream. Luckily neither of my does really needed milk stand training, that is of course not counting the weeks and weeks that it took for Prim to get up on the stand willingly.😏


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Thank you so much for noticing! It sure was a long road to get her back in this condition.
> 
> 
> I totally understand not wanting to keep a doe because of her personality. Prim really tests my patience sometimes. It's just not as pleasant working with a doe you know doesn't like you all that much. Why do the difficult ones always have to produce more? 😌 Prim will be here for the long haul though, because I really do love her milk production and udder qualities. She is very easy to milk. Extremely soft, supple skin that makes milking a dream. Luckily neither of my does really needed milk stand training, that is of course not counting the weeks and weeks that it took for Prim to get up on the stand willingly.😏


Unfortunately, Serenity has a horrible udder. She has very little attachment in any way. Her next kidding will be her 5th freshening and it will have to be her last because her udder is so bad. I don't have any pictures unfortunately but when she filled prior to kidding this spring, the ends of her teats were maybe 2 inches off the ground. She had to be milked out just so that her kids could actually nurse. Honestly, I think the best thing for her is to be butchered. She has come dangerously close to severely injuring her udder this past year because it hangs so low.


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## Tanya

She has a similar build to Phantom


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## MellonFriend

Rancho Draco said:


> Unfortunately, Serenity has a horrible udder. She has very little attachment in any way. Her next kidding will be her 5th freshening and it will have to be her last because her udder is so bad. I don't have any pictures unfortunately but when she filled prior to kidding this spring, the ends of her teats were maybe 2 inches off the ground. She had to be milked out just so that her kids could actually nurse. Honestly, I think the best thing for her is to be butchered. She has come dangerously close to severely injuring her udder this past year because it hangs so low.


I completely understand. I'm hopeful that Prim's udder holds up overtime, but it does concern me because her skin is so soft that I'm afraid it's really going to stretch out since her rear attachments aren't very good.


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## MellonFriend

I have a question about Murphy's escutcheon height. Where would "measure" it from? Am I looking at the top blue line to the middle one or the top blue line to the green line?


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## Rancho Draco

It 


MellonFriend said:


> I have a question about Murphy's escutcheon height. Where would "measure" it from? Am I looking at the top blue line to the middle one ore the top blue line to the green line?
> View attachment 213874


It would be blue line to blue line. It is a bit harder to visualize when they don't have an udder but the measurement is roughly from the top of the udder to the bottom of the vulva. I'll see if I can find a good diagram or something.


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## Rancho Draco

Here is a diagram describing linear appraisal. They refer to rear udder height but it goes hand in hand with a high escutcheon. The rest of the article is linked below. This is another source that I looked at a lot when learning conformation. For each trait there is an example of opposite extremes and a moderate example. One important point here is sometimes the desirable trait is the moderate example and sometimes it is one the the extremes.

















Dairy Goat Linear Appraisal


Describes how a dairy goat linear appraisal is done, what traits or categories are evaluated, why they are important and how the information can be useful.




www.betterhensandgardens.com


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## Jubillee

Yes between the blue lines. Theoretically, and it's worked out in my herd mostly, those swirls will indicate where the top of her udder will fill. I have found it's a tiny bit above that. I watch my girls and it seems to be pretty much in line with that. There are a handful here and there that defy those "rules" lol.


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## Jubillee

As far as the other 2 mommas, for me, personality and some non-conformational traits go a long way in choosing who stays. Esp low maintenance, hardy, parasite resistant, personality etc. I will move a nice milker due to personality. Usually, I'll try to keep a doe kid and bottle her so she isn't a brat like her dam if that's the issue. 

But, I know Bella's topline could be better, but I like her overall more. Prim is still fairly well built, her rear legs are a bit posty though and she seems to lack some brisket. 

Roached loins, from my understanding, look like the opposite of a weak chine. Basically, they can be fairly straight then round up in the loin area. Hmmm, I need to find a good pic.


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## MellonFriend

So then Murphy has a pretty good escutcheon height am I right?

I'm really glad to hear that you guys like Bella more. It makes me feel less guilty for picking Murphy mostly for her color. 😏

I think that if I ever decide to keep a doeling out of Prim, I'm going to bottle feed her.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> So then Murphy has a pretty good escutcheon height am I right?
> 
> I'm really glad to hear that you guys like Bella more. It makes me feel less guilty for picking Murphy mostly for her color. 😏
> 
> I think that if I ever decide to keep a doeling out of Prim, I'm going to bottle feed her.


It can be hard to go against color! Yes, I think, as of right now, Murphy looks to have a decently high escutcheon. I have never watched a doeling from birth to freshening so I don't know if that changes like rump angle and topline change throughout growth. I am watching my doeling Primrose this year and am excited to see her conformation when she freshens. It won't be until she is two though so the wait will be longer than I would like. All of my does have pretty low escutcheons so I hope that Primrose is an improvement on that front.

I think that you could get a really nice doeling out of your Prim as well. She definitely has the "meaty triangles" down well and her faults could be corrected with a nice buck. Are you going to breed her to Cullen this fall? Is Murphy getting bred this year or will she be too small?


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## MellonFriend

Rancho Draco said:


> I think that you could get a really nice doeling out of your Prim as well. She definitely has the "meaty triangles" down well and her faults could be corrected with a nice buck. Are you going to breed her to Cullen this fall? Is Murphy getting bred this year or will she be too small?


Prim is already bred to Cullen and so is Bella. Murphy will be bred next fall. I like to wait for at least a year old. 😉


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Prim is already bred to Cullen and so is Bella. Murphy will be bred next fall. I like to wait for at least a year old. 😉


Fun! When are they due? All three of my does should be going the first and second week of February.


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## MellonFriend

Rancho Draco said:


> Fun! When are they due? All three of my does should be going the first and second week of February.


Bella's due January 18th and Prim is February 4th. 😁 Sounds like we're going to have our hands full around the same time.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Bella's due January 18th and Prim is February 4th. 😁 Sounds like we're going to have our hands full around the same time.


Yep! I have Red due Feb. 13, Brownie due Feb. 16, and Serenity due Feb. 17. It's going to be busy!


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## MellonFriend

I thought I'd update on Murphy since she is now 15 months old. Any opinions on how she's developing. I'd be glad to hear!


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## FizzyGoats

I really like her. I’ve made all these notes in my head to see if I’m learning to correctly critique but I don’t know enough to do it “out loud”. Lol. I’ll be interested in hearing what others say. And good job on getting her to stand in a good position. I know it’s not perfect, but it’s pretty good! And I like that’s she’s not pinched down too. For me, at this early stage of learning confirmation, that is more helpful.


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## MellonFriend

FizzyGoats said:


> And good job on getting her to stand in a good position. I know it’s not perfect, but it’s pretty good!


It was really tough. 😅 Most of the time she was standing up on her back legs to try and get the food. I also just noticed that she's standing on her leash in that first picture. 🤭


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## Dandy Hill Farm

Wow. She is absolutely lovely and maturing soooo beautifully!! 😯😍😯🤩

Pros:

High withers
Great blending everywhere
Pasterns
Straight legs and feet
Body, neck, and rump length
Width
Body depth for her age
Brisket extension

Cons:

Would like to see a little more angulation in her rear legs
Her front legs could be placed a touch farther back
Her rump angle and brisket angle could also be a bit more level

Overall, I really love her and can't wait to see her FF udder! IMO, her conformation has definitely gotten better since you last posted pictures of her on this thread. It will be so exciting to see what she looks like once she's done growing. 😀

Edited to add: I after reading Rancho Draco's post I agree that her back feet toe out and her hips are a bit high.


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## Rancho Draco

Aw she's getting so big! So are her photo bombers. 

The cons that stand out to me:
High in the hips
Brisket slants up
Toes out in back legs
Front legs placed forward (not entirely sure on this one, might just be the way it looks with collars on)

She is maturing beautifully! Feel free to send her this way 😍


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## Rancho Draco

Gosh darn it Dandy always beats me. I was so close!


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## MellonFriend

Thanks you two! Her topline I think is her most major fault. I am _dying _to see what her udder is going to look like. I'm dying already and she isn't even bred yet. 🤣 When I first decided on keeping her I was really scolding myself for choosing her based on he pretty colors, but I've gotten no reason to be kicking myself so far! I just love her so much.



Rancho Draco said:


> Feel free to send her this way 😍


😆 Yeah no.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> When I first decided on keeping her I was really scolding myself for choosing her based on he pretty colors, but I've gotten no reason to be kicking myself so far!


She definitely took some time to blossom but she is maturing so nice. Its been really amazing to watch her change as she grows. 



MellonFriend said:


> 😆 Yeah no.


Aw come on! You know her and Prim would have tons of fun together.


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## MellonFriend

Rancho Draco said:


> Aw come on! You know her and Prim would have tons of fun together.


She already has a Prim and they don't get along at all. 😂


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## FizzyGoats

Ok, so now I can say what I was thinking. My first thought was that she blends beautifully. I like her rump length, and body length too. I thought she had a nice, long elegant neck (maybe that isn’t a thing in goats, but it’s pretty, lol). I though her brisket looked deep and nice and, I thought her front legs were nice and they only appeared a little forward because her hooves weren’t quite set straight down but slightly forward. I didn’t notice the angle on the brisket or slight toe out in back. I also didn’t notice high hips (didn’t know that was a thing and still am not seeing it in her). I thought she looked like she has nice width in the back shot, and teats and an escutcheon that look very promising for the future. But I don’t know if those are even really looked at before their first freshening.

Anyway, I’m learning a lot from all of you. I got some of it right. And some of it wrong. Hahaha. That’s how it goes I guess. 

I really like her. She’s turning in to a stunning little doe.


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## MellonFriend

FizzyGoats said:


> Ok, so now I can say what I was thinking. My first thought was that she blends beautifully. I like her rump length, and body length too. I thought she had a nice, long elegant neck (maybe that isn’t a thing in goats, but it’s pretty, lol). I though her brisket looked deep and nice and, I thought her front legs were nice and they only appeared a little forward because her hooves weren’t quite set straight down but slightly forward. I didn’t notice the angle on the brisket or slight toe out in back. I also didn’t notice high hips (didn’t know that was a thing and still am not seeing it in her). I thought she looked like she has nice width in the back shot, and teats and an escutcheon that look very promising for the future. But I don’t know if those are even really looked at before their first freshening.
> 
> Anyway, I’m learning a lot from all of you. I got some of it right. And some of it wrong. Hahaha. That’s how it goes I guess.
> 
> I really like her. She’s turning in to a stunning little doe.


Yay! I'm glad my post is helping you learn these things. Her hips being too high is a way of say that she's not down hill, meaning that it's actually preferable for does' hips to be lower than their shoulders. Looking for a promising udder site is also definitely something to look for. 😉


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## KY Goat Girl

Omg, she’s beautiful!  I love her stockiness! So well-built!


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## Jubillee

I just love that girl. She's turning out so nice. I agree with the others.


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## Goatastic43

I agree with everyone else! She is one BEAUTIFUL doe and her pattern is the cherry on top! 😍


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