# Accidently bought a fainter goat



## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Hey everyone my girlfriend and I got 2 mini Lamancha does back in October of last year and were still learning about goats. We are first time goat owners. 

Our original plan was to get the 2 mini Lamanchas does learn about how to take care of them, breed them with a Nigerian dwarf buck, milk them and sell the babies.

Well we bought a "Purebred Nigerian dwarf buck" to breed with our mini Lamancha does and a wether as companion for him about 3 weeks ago. The buck and wether are about 11 weeks old now. 

Come to find out the "Purebred Nigerian dwarf buck" is part fainter and he occasionally "faints". The lady we bought him from didn't tell us that he is part fainter. 

So what are the chances the fainting characteristic will given to his offspring? Will his offspring be less likely to be good milk producers because I read the fainter is a meat goat not a diary goat? Should I just get a new buck?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

They have to be 75% or more fainter to faint, so the kids would not have that trait. They would produce better than meat goats, but not as well as dairy goats. They would be fine as pets, but depending on your area it may be hard to find good pet homes.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> They have to be 75% or more fainter to faint, so the kids would not have that trait. They would produce better than meat goats, but not as well as dairy goats. They would be fine as pets, but depending on your area it may be hard to find good pet homes.


Is it possible something else could be causing him to faint? I just contacted the lady I bought him from and she said there is no fainter in his lineage that she knows of.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Can you post photos of him?


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

What is he doing that looks like a faint?


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

He's the black and white goat


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

nicolemackenzie said:


> What is he doing that looks like a faint?


He occasionally falls over on his side and his legs get stiff.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Sadly you never really know if someone is telling the truth or not the only for sure way to know is pedigrees and getting them sire dam certified! If he is getting stiff and falling over he is definitely a fainter! Like Suzanne said they have to be 75% or more fainter to faint. If you decide to keep him and breed him his kids will not faint. He sure is cute! Don't let size fool you some fainters are tiny like Nigerian/Pygmy tiny! I had bought a male goat that was supposed to be Kiko/Nubian/Boer with 100% not supposed to be any mini in him turned out to be a fainter!!! That WAS mini!!! I got 6 kids out of him due to him learning how to escape the buck pen


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

bigz48877 said:


> He occasionally falls over on his side and his legs get stiff.


Definitely sounds like a fainter. He doesn't have the body shape of a ND either.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Anything that is "purebred" should have the paperwork to back it up. Nigerian Dwarfs are usually registered and tattooed if purebred. Going forward, this will help you in knowing what to look for. Always ask for the paperwork, your registration application signed and completed by the seller, and ask to see the goat's tattoo and match with the paperwork. No proof, no $$$.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

goatblessings said:


> Anything that is "purebred" should have the paperwork to back it up. Nigerian Dwarfs are usually registered and tattooed if purebred. Going forward, this will help you in knowing what to look for. Always ask for the paperwork, your registration application signed and completed by the seller, and ask to see the goat's tattoo and match with the paperwork. No proof, no $$$.


I contacted the lady we bought Angus from and she swears up and down that she has never seen his mother or father faint. I'm not sure what to do. His offspring would be heinz 57 fainter/Lamancha/Nigerian dwarf cross. Your right if we buy another buck we will get one with papers.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

She may simply not know. She is going on what was told to her.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

ksalvagno said:


> She may simply not know. She is going on what was told to her.


Wouldn't the lady I bought Angus from see the mother or father faint if it's true that a goat needs to be 75% to show the fainting trait?


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Not necessarily I had a fainter for 2 years and only seen him faint once but sold him and the guy said he faints all the time there. She also might not spend a lot if time with them to actually see. If he faints they faint


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

JK_Farms said:


> Not necessarily I had a fainter for 2 years and only seen him faint once but sold him and the guy said he faints all the time there. She also might not spend a lot if time with them to actually see. If he faints they faint


Well I guess we need to do our research to see how well his offspring would sell as pets


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

It depends on the area where I'm at they sell super fast!


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## Exponentialdolphin (Nov 16, 2015)

A myotonic breeder I know breeds her 3 Dairy does to her myotonic bucks every year, she sells the doelings really well as multipurpose producers (meat and milk) so you could aim for that, since your does are mini manchas.


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## Exponentialdolphin (Nov 16, 2015)

It's actually possible that his parents didn't faint, and the breeders really didn't know. Both parents could have had a dominant F (non fainting) and a recessive f (fainting). So neither would display the fainting gene, as it is not dominant. However their offspring would be either FF, Ff, Ff, or ff. Basically there would be a 25% chance that the kids would faint. I.E.







Of course this only applies if fainting is recessive, as I think it is. I think It's actually possible that these goats could go back generations without any actually fainting, however, this would be highly unlikely.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

goatblessings said:


> Anything that is "purebred" should have the paperwork to back it up.


 Sorry, this is inaccurate. Purebred and Registered are different things. You can certainly have purebreds who are unregistered. And you can have registered who aren't purebreds (registered NOA, Registered Grades, Registered American, Experimentals, etc.)

Those of us who do not do registry paperwork because it is not important to our farm plan, should not be looked at as automatically dishonest simply because we don't have the paperwork "to back it up" It is hard enough building a good reputation without people who don't even know us, dissing us on a public forum.

The rest of your advice, about checking tattoo records, etc, is spot on for people buying a registered animal, whether purebred or not. ALWAYS make certain those "i"s are crossed and those "t"s are dotted.

OP, I'm sorry this has happened to you. If you decide to get another buck, my advice is to spend time studying the breed standards so you know for yourself what you are looking for/at. Registered just means the dam and sire are registered and the breeder took the time and expense to register the kid. It does NOT mean the kid is a good goat. I've seen horrible conformation, udders, parasite resistance, etc, that come attached with a registration paper.

Get a good buck, from good breeders, whether you want that registration or not.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Many breeders that don't register are trust worthy! I have came across those that aren't sadly there are more dishonest people than honest people! I really recommended looking for registered ones not that you have to register them (they might be cheaper if you ask for no papers). Although kids sell better with papers doesn't mean they have the best lines it just proves that they're a particular breed. I raise Purebred Kikos that are registered and kids are able to be DNA tested for sire certification and I recommend it!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I didn't mean to imply that all non registered stock are not purebred. But for someone starting out, and often times others, without paperwork you cannot be 100% certain that the animal is purebred. If you want to invest in breeding stock paperwork helps with the determination of future breeding and genetic evaluation. There are nice goats out there without registration but you have to be careful when someone represents a goat as purebred.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

OK, ruffled feathers smoothing.


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## Idahogoats (Sep 5, 2016)

I have 3 wethers. Can I feed them Purina Goat chow? I know I have to watch protein because of urinary tract problems.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Exponentialdolphin said:


> A myotonic breeder I know breeds her 3 Dairy does to her myotonic bucks every year, she sells the doelings really well as multipurpose producers (meat and milk) so you could aim for that, since your does are mini manchas.


Ok so maybe I shouldn't panic... It's just we paid $100 for Angus which is kinda high I think for a fainter/Nigerian dwarf mix or whatever Angus is?? What's the going rate?

I didn't really care if he was 100% Nigerian dwarf with papers for $100. I was expecting him to be at least be mostly Nigerian dwarf 75% or so.

If I knew he was part fainter or mostly fainter I wouldn't have bought him.

I guess we could breed him with our does and just play it by ear. If the babies don't sell well we wont breed him again..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Idahogoats said:


> I have 3 wethers. Can I feed them Purina Goat chow? I know I have to watch protein because of urinary tract problems.


Actually you need to watch the 2:1 minimum calcium to phosphorus ratio of their entire diet. You can feed them a little but I bet you need alfalfa to get more calcium in.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The Myatonic gene does run in Pygmy and Nigerian lines. It is rarely seen anymore as it's a disqualification.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

bigz48877 said:


> Ok so maybe I shouldn't panic... It's just we paid $100 for Angus which is kinda high I think for a fainter/Nigerian dwarf mix or whatever Angus is?? What's the going rate? ...


It depends on your area. That's about what they sell for where I live.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

In my area that is high for an unregistered male that's not purebred! He would range between $25-$65


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

goathiker said:


> The Myatonic gene does run in Pygmy and Nigerian lines. It is rarely seen anymore as it's a disqualification.


Never heard this, very interesting! Is this because in the beginning some were bred to fainter's, and eventually registered as full Nigerian/Pygmy, or is it something they always had but was bred out?


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## GoatGirlInTraining (Mar 26, 2017)

wow,those goats look happy!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It's something they always had actually.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Definitely sounds like a fainter. He doesn't have the body shape of a ND either.


So he doesn't have the body shape of a Nigerian dwarf? Will I be able to tell by the time he is a adult what he is more of Nigerian dwarf or fainter?


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

goathiker said:


> The Myatonic gene does run in Pygmy and Nigerian lines. It is rarely seen anymore as it's a disqualification.


So there's a chance he is a high percentage Nigerian dwarf it's just he got the Myatonic gene somehow?


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

It's true they could do that but it's extremely rare


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

JK_Farms said:


> It's true they could do that but it's extremely rare


So he's probably a higher percentage fainter than Nigerian dwarf.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Most likely


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

Ya, more then likely he's a higher % fainter. He doesn't look Nigerian at all either. If he was a high % Nigerian you should be able to tell just by looking at him, but he definitely look's very Fainter.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Agreed!


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

MoonShadow said:


> Ya, more then likely he's a higher % fainter. He doesn't look Nigerian at all either. If he was a high % Nigerian you should be able to tell just by looking at him, but he definitely look's very Fainter.


Well I saw his mother and father and they were small. So I guess the only positive thing about this situation is Angus is going to be small so I can breed him with my mini Manchas without worring about the kids being to big for them to deliver or give birth


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Yes fainters can be small I know my fainter was!


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

Agreed, fainters height generally ranges from 17 - 25 inches. Though 
Size varies within the breed, The weight of Tennessee line usually centers around 80 to 110 pounds. The weight of Texas line is generally somewhat higher at 90 to 120 pounds while mature bucks of lines selected for large size can be close to 200 pounds. Small companion type fainters can be as light as 50 pounds at maturity, and as short as 17 inches at the withers. The companion type has Does that are usually no smaller than 50 pounds mature weight and Bucks rarely under 80 pounds mature weight.

Nigerians height generally should be a minimum of 17" for both does and bucks and a maximum height of *22.5"* for does and *23.5"* for bucks and weight generally ranges from 40lbs to 80lbs depending on gender and height.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Hey everyone I though I would give a update on this thread. We decided to keep Angus the fainter buck after we found out the breeder knew nothing about goats and sold us Angus as a "Pure bred Nigerian dwarf ". But as time went on and I suggested to my girlfriend that we trade Angus the fainter buck for a intact Nigerian dwarf buck. Well she was offended and said there is no way could trade Angus. She wants keep Angus and buy a 3rd boy goat a Nigerian dwarf buck. So we will have a Apline weather"Moose" a fainter buck"Angus" that won't breed and a Nigerian dwarf breeding buck when all is said and done.

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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

You could wether Angus if you're not going to use him to breed.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> You could wether Angus if you're not going to use him to breed.


Yeah that's a good idea. I kinda wonder if she will decide to trade him as he gets older. Right now he's cute and she's attached but as he gets older, stinky maybe then she would be willing to part ways with him?

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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Depends. I'm just as devoted to my buck now as I was when he was a baby


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Depends. I'm just as devoted to my buck now as I was when he was a baby


I don't much about it but would two intact bucks in the same pen fight alot?

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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

They might fight some at first but should settle down.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Ok. Wethers don't fight as much right?

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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Yes, that is correct.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

ksalvagno said:


> Actually you need to watch the 2:1 minimum calcium to phosphorus ratio of their entire diet. You can feed them a little but I bet you need alfalfa to get more calcium in.


Did threads get crossed up somehow? I thought this one was about a fainter? {{confused}}


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Madgoat said:


> Did threads get crossed up somehow? I thought this one was about a fainter? {{confused}}


Yes the threads must have crossed

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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Look back at post 23.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

ksalvagno said:


> Look back at post 23.


Oh ok

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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

IMO, if Angus is an excellent buck prospect, he should be sold to someone who needs a fainter buck. 

If he is an excellent buck prospect, but you really are not going to use him as a breeder, and are determined to keep him, then in all kindness, please wether him! To keep him as an unused buck, who inevitably won't stay cute and sweet, but will get more and more frustrated from never being allowed to impregnate, is cruelty. 

If Angus is not an excellent buck prospect, he should be wethered, whether you keep him or you don't, because he is an inferior buck.

Wethers make the very best pets and companions. And most bucklings SHOULD end up as wethers, unless you have a strong local market for bucklings for meat.

Good luck with the evaluation. If you ever do start breeding, then you will need to do a lot, A LOT of evaluations from now on.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> IMO, if Angus is an excellent buck prospect, he should be sold to someone who needs a fainter buck.
> 
> If he is an excellent buck prospect, but you really are not going to use him as a breeder, and are determined to keep him, then in all kindness, please wether him! To keep him as an unused buck, who inevitably won't stay cute and sweet, but will get more and more frustrated from never being allowed to impregnate, is cruelty.
> 
> ...


My girlfriend wants to stud him out. Yes I agree we should sell or trade him. But that's my girlfriends goat.

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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Keeping an excellent buck as an outside stud offering is a sound business decision, as long as 2 standards are met.

1. He is an excellent buck already.
2. She is able to protect your home herd and your real estate, from outside infection.

Many people who only have a few does are forced to use inferior bucks, or inbreed to bucks they have kidded, because people refuse access to their superior bucks. They refuse because of risk of disease and are not to be blamed for this.

If your girlfriend is willing to offer an excellent buck to others, she is doing the goat world a good service, so long as the proper precautions are taken to protect your real estate.

If he is inferior, he should still be wethered, because that does no one any good, especially Angus.

Well done, guys, for thinking this out.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> Keeping an excellent buck as an outside stud offering is a sound business decision, as long as 2 standards are met.
> 
> 1. He is an excellent buck already.
> 2. She is able to protect your home herd and your real estate, from outside infection.
> ...


Since Angus is a fainter buck which isn't a diary breed teat size won't matter right? What are people looking for in a stud fainter buck? What traits? Will we need to wait until he is older to find out if he is worth studding out?

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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

What an awesome set of questions. There is a site devoted to myotonics, called tenessee meat goats. You could learn a lot specifically about myotonics there.

There are people here who specialize in meat goats, and they'll have a good perspective. 

My perspective is from a breeder who wants to produce an all purpose homestead goat, which includes dairy considerations, and sturdy hardiness under natural forage conditions. 

So I may not have anything to offer to you, other than general good conformation for all goats.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> What an awesome set of questions. There is a site devoted to myotonics, called tenessee meat goats. You could learn a lot specifically about myotonics there.
> 
> There are people here who specialize in meat goats, and they'll have a good perspective.
> 
> ...


I don't want to go through the hassle of studing him out. We will have to build another separate " Studing pen" for him to breed with the fainter doe to ensure the fainter doe doesn't get pregnant by the wrong buck. Ugh. The next time we buy another goat I'm paying for it that way if I feel it's necessary to sell I will without my girlfriend crying about it

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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I personally would have less than no interest in a myotonic herdsire, so honesty that he'll inject those genes would be greatly appreciated.

Other than that, some things I would like to know... How often do you have to trim his hooves. How often do you have to worm. Does he throw twins or singles. Are the udders involved (his dam, granddam, daughters) high and tight, or loosey goosey. (this is important in meat goats, not just dairy goats).

These are just some of the questions that would be important to me if I did want myotonic genetics.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

A separate breeding pen is valuable every time you consider an outside breeding, irrespective of fainter genes. You don't want an accidental breeding of anyone that is supposed to get it on with a particular paid-for buck.


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

One of the biggest problems in buying unregistered is that often the people do not really know and there is absolutely no way to verify unless they have the paperwork on the sire and dam and can prove those kids came from that registered stock. Once an unregistered goat even if purebred goes to someone else then anything can happen and anything can be bred into the line. The owners down the line then might assume the goat is purebred when in fact it no longer came from registered stock. I like to think of it as stacking the deck in your favor. If you want a certain breed then buy registered stock to start with. It is just like anything else there will be good and bad in the mix but you stack the deck in your favor when you buy registered. I have had people tell me they have pygmies for sale with blue eyes- I have to laugh as that is not a pygmy trait it is more Nigerian. Unregistered is unknown and that is pretty much a fact. 

This info posted by Exponentialdolphin is right on: "It's actually possible that his parents didn't faint, and the breeders really didn't know. Both parents could have had a dominant F (non fainting) and a recessive f (fainting). So neither would display the fainting gene, as it is not dominant. However their offspring would be either FF, Ff, Ff, or ff. Basically there would be a 25% chance that the kids would faint."

You have 2 unregistered goats so you really have no clue what is in the background. Registration does have meaning and usually those who do not register always seem to feel it is not valid. Whole programs are built on registration and registries do a great job tracking bloodlines. Sadly not all are honest so it can create a problem but that is not the norm.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> A separate breeding pen is valuable every time you consider an outside breeding, irrespective of fainter genes. You don't want an accidental breeding of anyone that is supposed to get it on with a particular paid-for buck.


But original plan was to only have one breeding a pure bred Nigerian dwarf buck. So a separate breeding would not be necessary if I had one buck with his own pen

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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

I'm going to try to talk my girlfriend into wethering Angus

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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, this is completely true, based on your original plan no extra pen required.

What has your girlfriend decided to do with Angus? Or is that still undecided?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Sorry, your last post came in when I was typing. I'm certain Angus will make a loving pet for her.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> Sorry, your last post came in when I was typing. I'm certain Angus will make a loving pet for her.


Yes I'm sure Angus will make a good pet. I just don't think it would be worth the hassle to stud him out. I definitely don't want to breed Angus with my mini lamanchas because I want to sell miniature diary goats. Not a meat goat/dairy goat hybrid. Lol

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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

If we did decide to breed Angus the fainter buck with our mini lamancha does would he have a hard time mating with them? Angus is very small and our mini lamancha does are taller. I think Angus is a pygmy/fainter mix because he's almost 6 months old and is really short. I'm not sure how much more he's going to grow.

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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

He should he able to get the job done. Just make sure there is a platform or something in the pen. I once had a 5 month old ND buckling breed my standard Alpine does (totally unplanned). Pretty sure he used the stand


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

I think we have to consider in every breeding what the ultimate goal is. Personally I would not pay to breed to a non registered goat nor would I take the chance on exposing my herd to an unknown buck of questionable bloodlines due to the danger of disease. 

So my experience tells me there would not be enough outside breedings to make it worth your while if that is your goal. If you are good with the mix with your does then that is fine. I know sorry I am sounding like a goat snob. I think it comes from my years showing registered quarter horses and paints and Dobermans. All my bucks are registered. I do have some unregistered does that I also breed for pets but they are always bred to one of my registered bucks.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> He should he able to get the job done. Just make sure there is a platform or something in the pen. I once had a 5 month old ND buckling breed my standard Alpine does (totally unplanned). Pretty sure he used the stand


Angus is almost six months old. Could he go through a growth spurt and get a little taller? Are pygmys and fainters about maxed out by 6 months?

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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

We think Angus is a mini silkie fainting goat because his father has long silkie hair. I found some information about mini silkie fainting goats. They are part Nigerian dwarf

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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I'd expect him to continue growing until at least two years. He's already done the bulk of his growing but he should still grow a good bit more especially if you can make sure he eats throughout rut.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> I'd expect him to continue growing until at least two years. He's already done the bulk of his growing but he should still grow a good bit more especially if you can make sure he eats throughout rut.


The lady I bought Angus from told me she would send pictures of Angus's mother and father. I will upload them when she sends them.

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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

capracreek said:


> I think we have to consider in every breeding what the ultimate goal is. Personally I would not pay to breed to a non registered goat nor would I take the chance on exposing my herd to an unknown buck of questionable bloodlines due to the danger of disease.
> 
> So my experience tells me there would not be enough outside breedings to make it worth your while if that is your goal. If you are good with the mix with your does then that is fine. I know sorry I am sounding like a goat snob. I think it comes for my years showing registered quarter horses and paints and Dobermans. All my bucks are registered. I do have some unregistered does that I also breed for pets but they are always bred to one of my registered bucks.


That was a very thought filled post.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

The thing is that you really don't know what he is, regardless of pictures. He has the potential to throw 4 different, (or more) breeds into the mix. Thoughtful breeding at this point will help you succeed in what you want out of your herd. He sounds like he would make a nice wether buddy. If his overall conformation is just ok, I wouldn't breed him. Just MO


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

If you are unsure of his breed, don't breed him. Make him a wether and have a nice pet.


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## K Gemmill (Aug 22, 2017)

I bought two Nigerian dwarf kids one two months old and one three months old $300.00 each. And from two different families. I also am new to goat family farming so was that a fair price or not ? No papers came with goats either .my granddaughter wants to go through 4-h with one of them so hope we don't need papers for that. Thank You for all information


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

K Gemmill said:


> I bought two Nigerian dwarf kids one two months old and one three months old $300.00 each. And from two different families. I also am new to goat family farming so was that a fair price or not ? No papers came with goats either .my granddaughter wants to go through 4-h with one of them so hope we don't need papers for that. Thank You for all information


That's high. They definitely should have given you papers included in the price at $300. Are they registerable? If so go back to the seller and get the papers

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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Also a lot depends on your area and gender of kids.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I agree that it is a high price without papers. Check with your 4h club regarding their rules. Ours does not require registration to show, but does require scrapie/county tags.


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## K Gemmill (Aug 22, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Also a lot depends on your area and gender of kids.


I live in Washington state and I think you're right about because y am new to this. Thank You


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## K Gemmill (Aug 22, 2017)

goatblessings said:


> I agree that it is a high price without papers. Check with your 4h club regarding their rules. Ours does not require registration to show, but does require scrapie/county tags.


I can show them as pack goats only


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Ok guys you will be happy to hear we bought a registered Nigerian dwarf buck for $100.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds like a good deal.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Good luck and congratulations!


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> Good luck and congratulations!


Thanks, his name is Dusty and he's black, white and brown. Dusty is the same age 6months as our other buck Angus and wether Moose.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Would right now be the best time to sell Angus the fainter buck? Do bucks sell quick this time of year?


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

They can, depending on your area


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Ok. I'm not what the market is like the fainters in my area. I would think that breeders would be looking for bucks right now because most people breed there goats in October and November right?


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Some people do find themselves "under the gun" looking for a buck this time of year, I would put him out there and see what you get....


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Yeah there's lots of ways to advertise for free Facebook farm sites, Craigslist and Hoobly online classifieds


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

We were wondering if we had Angus the fainter buck castrated if it would calm him down? Would castrating Angus make him leave the new ND buck Dusty alone?


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

It should. Might take a little while for the hormones to settle


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Again, I would ask if Angus is of sufficient quality to offer as a breeding buck. If you have not established that (and I think you have not....) then you should wether him (which I thought was your decision already....) and then go from there.

I'm really just a bit surprised he is still uncastrated. But I'm sure I've missed something since it was said Angus would be wethered and be a good pet for your girlfriend...

Yes, sometimes we are caught by an unexpected death, or something, and we need a buck. But no, this is not usual. Most of us put our buck plans in place before we need them.

I'm not saying Angus is not a good enough goat to use as a buck. I just have not heard from you that he is.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> Again, I would ask if Angus is of sufficient quality to offer as a breeding buck. If you have not established that (and I think you have not....) then you should wether him (which I thought was your decision already....) and then go from there.
> 
> I'm really just a bit surprised he is still uncastrated. But I'm sure I've missed something since it was said Angus would be wethered and be a good pet for your girlfriend...
> 
> ...


My girlfriend is still deciding if she wants to sell Angus or keep him or castrate him. I don't really know if Angus is of sufficient quality to offer as a breeding buck... I don't think so because he's not registered and a mixture fainter and unknown variety of goats..


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Ok I got another question on this thread.

Would Angus the fainter buck be worth more money if we waited until he was a little older to sell him like say 1 year old? Right now he is around 7 months old..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Not really. You'd be better off selling him while people want to breed.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm thinking it could go either way. Goats do grow a lot in this age group. Sometimes not in fantastic ways...

Do we have a current picture of him?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Karen is right about that issue.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Ok I just thought maybe since we don't what he will look like full grown like how big he will get and stuff because he is a mutt that maybe would pay more to know the final product..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No. When it comes to unregistered mixed goats, age isn't going to make a difference.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

If you want to wether him & sell him as a pet, do it as soon as possible. Pet buyers usually like younger goats. & get him used to walking on a leash etc. if he doesn't already. He's very cute & a nice pet size.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Hey everyone I'm bringing up this thread again. Ok my girlfriend thinks "Angus" the fainter buckling will be worth more in the spring. The issue is she doesn't want to have him castrated and we have to keep him in a separate shed all winter with his wether buddy "Moose" while the new registered pure bred Nigerian dwarf buck "Dusty" stays with the girls all winter. I want my girlfriend to either sell Angus the fainter buck or castrate him but she won't do it. She purchased Angus so I can't make her sell or castrate him. It would make things easier for us if she would make decision so we could keep all the goats in one shed over the winter.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

I am probably about to become the least popular person on goat spot but this is something I have a very strong opinion about and I will share. 

The first time someone (a significant other) made the indication that "this is their home" so they had the final say in ANYTHING I would be gone and never look back. If she is living with you, it's her home, too. Period. She should have equal say. If not, why even be together. And for the record, I own my home, I am not living with anyone. If I ever do find someone I want to move in he will be an equal partner.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Giving a loved one some agency in your enterprise may well result in her being more invested in success as she learns more about it.

Only you can decide if a showdown about Angus is worth the alienation. I would hope my husband, even though we are having problems right now, would not feel so.

If he did, divorce might not ensue, but the marriage could never become what it might have become.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Ok. I'm just really frustrated right now. I take care of the wether and the fainter buck too.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Who takes care of the goats? Do you both share the daily care? I admit if it were me and I'm the only one caring for the goats, my hubby would not have any say in the matter if it makes caring for the goats harder for me. Especially in the winter. Of course at my house, I am the only one who cares for the goats and chickens. So it goes my way.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I do hear your frustration, and you make a good point that should be discussed with her. Ownership is not just buying, it is also caring for. That is why she has a say in your farm as well.

When we are frustrated, blowing off steam will happen. I believe that is what you are doing, and when you are calmer, you will have a different idea on this, "getting your goat"


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

bigz48877 said:


> Ok. I'm just really frustrated right now. I take care of the wether and the fainter buck too.


I completely understand. Sometimes are just really hard work. I do agree with ksalvagno, however, I just got the feeling she helps with their care?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I get the feeling she does not help, and that the 2 of them have not been in agreement as to the goat goals. This frustration has been building for a while now, through this thread.

My own marriage is so wacked at the present that I don't have any good advice, only a perspective.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

ksalvagno said:


> Who takes care of the goats? Do you both share the daily care? I admit if it were me and I'm the only one caring for the goats, my hubby would not have any say in the matter if it makes caring for the goats harder for me. Especially in the winter. Of course at my house, I am the only one who cares for the goats and chickens. So it goes my way.


We both work during the day

She works 8am-6pm

I work 6am-2pm so I primarily take care of the goats because I get home from work before her.

On her days off(2 days a week)she will tend to the goats before I get home.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I am the one who takes care of the goats -no matter what my schedule is. I would personally ask her to care for them for a month by herself, so she can understand your concerns and frustrations. You love her, but if she is also invested in your relationship and you come before the goats, she should be willing to understand your point of view. She can get up early and feed later. Then the two of you can decide together what the best course of action should be. I've been married for almost 3 decades......compromise HAS to happen.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Well the lady that sold us Angus the fainter buck told us she will buy him back for the price we originally paid for him $100. We just got transport him back to her farm.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Will your GF go for that? If so, that may be a really good solution.

Having him and learning from him has been of value to you. Look at how much more you know now.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Well my girlfriend doesn't seem to be going for it. She's worried that Angus the fainter buck would go back and might impregnate his mom. I gotta convince her that the lady we got him from would neuter Angus


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## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

I agree, that sounds like a great compromise if she is willing to do it.


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## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

Huh, well even if the previous owner leaves him intact that wouldn't mean he would breed his mother (unless they all run together?) and if he does breed her, that doesn't mean the kids will be totally messed up, they just might have a stronger propensity for the traits that they already have genetically...


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Yeah


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

That's a little harsh if I must say ... all of the breeders I know keep the bucks and does separate... if he would happen to impregnate his mom, it could be a good thing (line breed) or bad ( inbreeding). She's become attached to him, you should not be mad at her and threatening to kick her out because of it..


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

I'm getting tired of the whole battle. She doesn't want to neuter him or sell him. Something has got to give.


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## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

Not all relationships are meant to be. Compromise is really key I have found and if compromise won't happen, then you need to make the decision that is best for you. 

If I was in your shoes I would suggest she build him his own pen, if she was willing to do the work to set up where he needs to be then that could be a compromise in itself. (Having done fencing all summer and working on building sheds now - I can say this is a PITA and great motivation to deciding who is and isn't worth keeping).


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

ArborGoats said:


> Not all relationships are meant to be. Compromise is really key I have found and if compromise won't happen, then you need to make the decision that is best for you.
> 
> If I was in your shoes I would suggest she build him his own pen, if she was willing to do the work to set up where he needs to be then that could be a compromise in itself. (Having done fencing all summer and working on building sheds now - I can say this is a PITA and great motivation to deciding who is and isn't worth keeping).


Angus has a separate shed with his wether buddy "Moose". The issue is we have to make a special trip everyday out to the shed to care for them. Winter is approaching fast and I don't want to make a special trip through deep snow everyday to care for them.


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

Maybe tell her she will need to care for them then. You take care of everyone else and she will need to care for Angus and his buddy if she wants to keep them.. it sucks feeding in the freezing cold and dark, I know. Maybe that will help.


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## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

Gotcha, well best of luck then, it sounds like you have found yourself wedged between a rock and hard place. =(


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

She'll always find a reason not to sell Angus. Being so concerned about Angus' dam's offspring, to which she has no connection, and because of that willing to cause more damage to her relationship with you, is irrational.

I'm not saying break up or don't break up. I'm not saying give in or lay down the law. I'm not saying. period.

This is just a reality you need to accept in order to make your own mind up. If you say, Yes, he'll be more valuable in Spring and we'll sell him then, there will be another reason not to sell then.

There are many ways to compromise here, and I don't know if ANY of them would reach the both of you. I don't know if the relationship itself is healthy except for this point, or if this point is only showing how unhealthy the relationship is.

I'm sorry for all involved. Sorry for you, sorry for her, and most of all, sorry for Angus if he misses this chance to go back home. 'Cause I don't know what will befall him otherwise.

Just please accept that she will keep finding reasons, good or otherwise, to not sell.

I'm sorry.

For Angus' sake, I hope she lets him go home.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Well I have good news. I talked it over with her some more and we are taking Angus back Dec. 16th. I cried with her for a while. We will get through it...


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

I am sorry you must make this decision, but I am glad you guys came to an agreement. Those little buggers attach themselves to our heartstrings..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad you are able to work it out.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I am so happy for you. All 3 of you.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Well we can use the other shed to store hay over the winter now because Moose the wether will live with other goats and that shed will be empty


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That will make winter care easier.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Good hay storage is vital.

A suggestion. She may or may not be leery of becoming attached to the goats now. When kids come, encourage her to play with them and be part of their lives. I'm sorry for the people here who have to do it all themselves no matter what. The goats are mainly my problem, but I can count on my husband doing a milking when my hands are crippled, or an evening feeding if I have a fever.

A teammate, and pillows, make everything better.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Ok we sold Angus the fainter buck back to the breeder we bought him from today and we put the wether" Moose"in the other shed/pen with the does and the buck today.

Now our does are being mean to the wether and they head but him all the time. 

How do we adjust them?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Here is an idea. Keep Moose in that pen you just took him out of, and put a couple of does with him for a few days. Then when you move them back, he'll already have a couple of friends.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Is your GF doing OK? Today had to be hard on her.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Yeah it was hard for the both of us.

So switching pens might help?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm suggesting putting Moose back where he was, with part of your doe herd (I've forgotten how large that doe herd is) So part of your doe herd is in their pen, Moose and part of the doe herd would be in his pen. He has home court advantage, and becomes friends with some of the doe herd, then you move them back to the pen you want everyone in, and he is no longer the isolated victim. He only has part of the doe herd to deal with, instead of everybody all at once.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Oh. I only have 2 does and I have Dusty the pure bred registered Nigerian dwarf buck in with them to breed. The buck is friendly with the wether never head butts him. Our doe fawn is being the most aggressive. Sophie the other doe isn't being as bad.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

OK, separate Fawn, so she is all by herself for a day. Try again. If she is aggressive again, isolate her for 2 more days, so she is completely alone.

That takes care of that in my herd. I don't isolate the bullied, I isolate the bully. Hardly ever fails.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Good idea. We will do that right now.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Well I locked Fawn the most aggressive doe in the milking shed last night and let her out today. 

She continued to be aggressive towards Moose the wether so locked her up again in the milking shed. 

Fawn will chase after moose and head butt him real hard and won't let him come inside the main shed. 

Not sure what to do hopefully locking her up in the milking shed works.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Leave her for at least 24 hours by herself. She needs to be by herself long enough for the other goats to establish a herd. So it will probably be more like a few days.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Ok fawn was in the milking shed last night and this afternoon for about 24 hours total alone. I let her out and she kicked moose out of the main shed. 

I put her in the shed that the buck/wether lived in alone it's about 50 yards away from the other goats.

Hopefully a few days of this will be enough to break her.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

OK, at least a week. Feed her and water her, but no other attention or company for a week. Don't "try" it, because that is teaching her she can outlast you.

The last thing you want is for your buck to learn this behaviour, because eventually you'll be putting the 2 of them together without the girls, right? You want them staying friends. But he'll learn to bully if exposed to it long enough.

I swear, tiny herds are harder than large herds sometimes.

Or that is my excuse for not having just 4 goats...


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> OK, at least a week. Feed her and water her, but no other attention or company for a week. Don't "try" it, because that is teaching her she can outlast you.
> 
> The last thing you want is for your buck to learn this behaviour, because eventually you'll be putting the 2 of them together without the girls, right? You want them staying friends. But he'll learn to bully if exposed to it long enough.
> 
> ...


Yes eventually in the spring around the time the does kid the buck and the wether be back in the boy goat shed together.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

That is just what I thought you had planned for. So you want the 2 of them to still be friends.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

I never realized how smart goats are. Fawn the most aggressive doe is locked in a different shed and the other goats are confused about where she is..

Sophie thought her mom fawn(my doe that has been aggressive towards my wether moose)was in the milking shed. 

I was about to open the door to clean in it and Moose blocked the door thinking the aggressive doe Fawn was locked in it.

Then Sophie rammed moose thinking "my mom is locked in there let her out" 

So I opened the door to clean it then they realized she was not there...

I just thought it was funny how they all reacted. Fawn will be locked up for a few more days 50 yards away.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

LOL!!!!


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

I really want to clean out the shed fawn is serving isolation time in and store hay in it.

I setup the main shed with 2 kidding stall dividers for when the does kid in the spring. 

Should I just put fawn in one of the kidding stall dividers? She would still be able to see the other goats but she couldn't hurt moose


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I wouldn't, but you know your pressures.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Well Fawn the most aggressive doe was locked in the shed alone and she stopped eating and lost some weight. I brought her back over to be with the other goats and she still kicks moose out of the shed. So I locked her up in a kidding stall. She will bite and head butt moose whenever he gets close enough to the stall. She will bite his tail when he's eating hay. Is this normal? Why does she hate moose so much is it because he's a wether? This is a picture of her locked up.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

She probably just hates time I would makes sure to separate them while they're eating. give her some time with the rest of the herd if you give him some space to get away from her they "should" work things out in time


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

goat girls said:


> She probably just hates time I would makes sure to separate them while they're eating. give her some time with the rest of the herd if you give him some space to get away from her they "should" work things out in time


They are all in one shed. If moose steps one hoof into the shed Fawn will run to the door and kick him out. All the goats eat, drink and sleep in the shed. Moose needs to be able to get inside to eat and sleep.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Fawn sounds like my Boer that I sold for this reason if you build a tiny add on to your barn that should be fine for Moose


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yup. Those goats leave my farm... Good luck.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Well moose is alpine/Nubian/fainter mix and his mom was very large and his Dad was pretty big. So I figure he will be very big when he's full grown. He's 8 months old now.

Right now he can fight off so Sophie because he's bigger than her and get into the shed to eat and sleep. 

Eventually he will be so large he will be able to fight off fawn.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Can you get a dog house or something that Moose can use if she won't let him in in the barn to stay warm? I have one doe that gets pushed away by everyone so I have to have extra feeders, & I just happened to have 3 plastic dogloos (mainly for climbing on) that this doe can use as refuges, though I wasn't thinking of that at all when I got them. This one doe never had twins & then I started feeding her individually. Now she's had 2 sets in a row. I didn't realize how badly they were excluding her till then, as she is so shy & just hung back to avoid bullying. There really wasn't any biting & not that much butting either. Sorry to ramble though--my main idea was just to suggest providing alternative feeding & sleeping spots, & hiding places, & if it's really bad even a second water bucket.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

That could work if it was warmer but its -7 degrees right now where I'm from Michigan


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

I let fawn out of her stall today and something strange happened. Moose the wether mounted her and made the buck rutting noise. Now fawn won't mess with him. I thought a wether couldn't do that though? I know he is wether I saw his balls fall off.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Wethers still act like bucks sometimes. It's partly a dominance thing also.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Good hopefully fawn won't mess with him anymore


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

The lady that we sold Angus the fainter buck back to put a ad out on Craigslist for him. No where in the ad does she put that he is a fainter. She says he is a "Nigerian mix". Now I know she has been lying she knows she is selling fainters.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can always flag the ad.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

ksalvagno said:


> You can always flag the ad.


Yeah I might do that. We didn't realize Angus was a fainter because he didn't faint until a couple weeks after we brought him home. Now Angus is older and faints alot. Whoever buys Angus from her will know right away he is a fainter.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

They can still act like a buck, they just can't breed. He was probably just showing dominance, as they do. I think you've licked the problem. Well done.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

She also put down Nigerian mix....and there is a link to fainting (very rarely) that can crop up in Nigerians. Hopefully she will let others know that he does faint.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I wish, though, that since she took him back solely because you were unhappy with the fainting, she had mentioned that he faints in the ad.

Flag it and forget it. It is the best you can do. You won't see the ad any more and that will help you walk away. Don't take out a "Warning" ad about it. That is against CL rules.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> I wish, though, that since she took him back solely because you were unhappy with the fainting, she had mentioned that he faints in the ad.
> 
> Flag it and forget it. It is the best you can do. You won't see the add any more and that will help you walk away. Don't take out a "Warning" ad about it. That is against CL rules.


Ok I won't put out a warning ad. Yes hopefully she tells buyers that he is a fainter.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I know you really want to do something to warn people, but really it is against the rules and it can get your account banned.

You've done really, really well with your whole situation. I think you are on your way.:dreams:


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

My friend was selling Aussie puppies one time and kept getting flagged, they claimed (the flaggers) that they were not Aussies. The puppies were DNA tested purebred. She kept getting flagged so she went on to CL and flagged the other Aussie puppy add on there. Never got flagged again


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