# Could really use some help...



## InChristAloneMom (May 23, 2012)

Ok, so I'm not sure what it is, but there is just something I don't like. Is it his slanting-appearing rump? Or his weak/skinny looking back legs? Or, maybe he is just not long at all? What do you all see?

I am especially asking because I *just* went through selling my previous herd {registered, but pet-grade} in lieu of upgrading. I'm just not sure {having second thoughts} about breeding this guy to my does or not because I really don't want to go backwards.

I am talking out loud, and asking for opinions/input. What would you do? He has a very nice Pedigree, but the more I look at him, the less impressed I feel. Am I being too cautious, or am I possibly on the right track by not breeding him?

My other buck to me looks much nicer, and while his Pedigree doesn't have as many CH/MCH in it, I think his ancestors udder's look way better, don't you? So, please put me out of my misery, and you more experience ladies tell me what you would do.

Would you just go with breeding my other buck, Gamy, to my two girls this fall and sell Tarek, or would you try Tarek out on one of them? I just don't want to have a handful of lesser quality goats again, especially if I can avoid it.

Maybe I'm just freaking out over nothing? Sigh! On the one hand his pedigree is impressive, but when I LOOK at him, I am just not seeing anything impressive. Gamy is the opposite, his pedigree is good but not super spectacular, but when I look at him, I am impressed. Which do you go by when choosing? Pedigree and championships/milking awards or what you see with your eye balls in regard to the buck himself, and his closest ancestor's udders?


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I can't say much judging those pics.... He has nice udders in his back round.... It is all up too you and what you feel is best for your herd really...


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I think it's safe to say that once we all have had a start and the experiences as well as learning of better qualities that just have their way of working us towards a goal with breedings.... I personally want to breed for not only quality and hardiness but for improved udders with capacity.

You see what you have, now pick apart your does and look at those bucklings... I'm sure that each has a strength where your does have a weakness, pair them accordingly. Seeing well known names in a pedigree is a plus, especially since the well known animals tend to be easily researched and you can see how the newer generations have changed, for the better as well as the worse. Having titles and milk stars are a plus as well BUT theres only a select few who actually have the time, funds and dedication to make it possible for those goats to get those stars and titles...just because a doe or buck doesn't have a GCH or a *S along it's name does not mean that the animal is lesser quality.

Judging a kid is tricky...there are those that will make you look twice and those that make you question your decisions but until those kids grow into whats expected of them, you really can't know for sure how they will turn out.
However...there are qualities that kids can have that are noticeable right off the bat, toeing out as well as cow hocked as well as a steep rump, most often these don't correct as they grow.

Don't discount either boy until they've gotten some growth and age to them as well as seeing their first kids....it's those kids that will tell you wether or not the sires weaknesses are dominant.


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## Red Mare (Aug 17, 2011)

Liz did a bang up job of explaining- but since you asked for opinions, I will pass one over. 
I much prefer the udders behind your "less" pedigreed buck. I like the teat placement, the MSL, and the all over rear udder height in Electra over the other does in the other pedigrees, and I think his mother (River) has a good chance of maturing into a similar udder. 

Your other buck is from good lineage, but yes, in that 1st picture, his rump looks very steep. He also appears to not be as straight behind leg wise, but he may be scrambling. I wish I could see more of his sire's dam's udder. It looks like it could be high and tight, but I just can't tell. His dam's udder I am not as excited about, but it has lots of positive things going for her as well. 

You have to pick what you Like to look at and what you want to be milking as well. 
Remember, a buck can win everything, but still have crappy daughters. 
Reversely, you can have a great buck that never leaves home, but is worth his weight in gold in what he gives you udder wise in his daughters.


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## InChristAloneMom (May 23, 2012)

Thanks to each of you. :greengrin: 

Red Mare, I appreciate your detailed opinion, it seems mine is running long the same lines are yours (almost confirming my inexperience opinion). Hmmm, I have time to ponder over it for sure (until Novemberish) but it gives me more food for thought, anyway.


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## RowdyKidz (Apr 2, 2009)

In the end it's up to you  Personally, I love all the udders on the second buck's pedigree.

I do like the first buck as well, just not as much as the second. I would love to see his sire be a bit longer bodied and I am not crazy about the the sire's dam's udder.

Just remember, a buck is half your herd. You second boy still has good bloodlines, great herds are behind him. Just because they weren't shown, he shouldn't be penealized. Showing isn't always everything.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I think the problems you are seeing with your boy is that he's short bodied and has a steep rump. Looking at his parents, they are similar. The pedigree IS nice, but a pedigree isn't everything....yes we love to see a good pedigree with well known animals and stars and champions and whatnot, but that doesn't guarantee anything. I like the udders behind him, but there are areas where they could use some improvement...no udder is "perfect," but there are some things in the photos I see that i'd like to see improved. My #1 thing I look for in bucks or bucklings...is that dam's udder. Conformation can be fixed through a generation or two, but udders are the hard thing to get right. I would base your decision on that mostly...though if you want a buck with a more level rump and longer body AND good udders behind him...you can find it. But that is all your decision. Good luck with whatever you decide!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Dawne...I was trying hard to give an unbiased opinion/explanation.....it was really difficult to not be excited as I typed, seeing as how I am in process of purchasing Gami's sire :wink: 

I don't think you can go wrong, yes when it comes to breedings, it's a gamble because you just don't know how a kid will turn out but I think that breeding Tarek to a long bodied doe with a smooth rump will give you some good looking kids...and if you don't like what the result is you can either sell or have him wethered.


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## Red Mare (Aug 17, 2011)

Congrats! I really like Snappy as an all over doe, what capacity!
I would like to see a better MSL in her udder, but that's a common issue in our breed sadly.


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## InChristAloneMom (May 23, 2012)

RowdyKidz said:


> In the end it's up to you  Personally, I love all the udders on the second buck's pedigree.
> 
> I do like the first buck as well, just not as much as the second.


Me too! :greengrin:


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## InChristAloneMom (May 23, 2012)

KW Farms said:


> I think the problems you are seeing with your boy is that he's short bodied and has a steep rump.
> 
> My #1 thing I look for in bucks or bucklings...is that dam's udder.


Yes! I just wanted a second opinion on his shortness and steepness, as I am still quite inexperienced.

Based on the #1 thing being the dam's udder, then I guess Tarek does not quite please me. Frankly, the more I look at his dam's udder, the less I like it. :GAAH:

:greengrin:


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## InChristAloneMom (May 23, 2012)

liz said:


> Dawne...I was trying hard to give an unbiased opinion/explanation.....it was really difficult to not be excited as I typed, seeing as how I am in process of purchasing Gami's sire :wink:
> 
> but I think that breeding Tarek to a long bodied doe with a smooth rump will give you some good looking kids...and if you don't like what the result is you can either sell or have him wethered.


I know! And I am waiting to hear your thoughts on BTC when he arrives at your place. :thumb:

I think that IF I do go ahead and use Tarek it will be on the doe that I purchased from the same farm. {The one named Sera}

You guys are all so helpful! :hug:


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## Mossy Ridge (Jun 12, 2012)

One thing to remember when looking at Timachee's udder photo is that 
Robin at Thunderhill dam raises all of her babies, so there is no attempt made to make an udder look more impressive just for a photo like I have seen on other sites. 
Timachee is a baby making machine and we have Tarek's littermate sister here. They are prototypical "commercial" vs "show" stock in my opinion. Even though that is supposed to be the same.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Mossy Ridge said:


> One thing to remember when looking at Timachee's udder photo is that
> Robin at Thunderhill dam raises all of her babies, so there is no attempt made to make an udder look more impressive just for a photo like I have seen on other sites.
> Timachee is a baby making machine and we have Tarek's littermate sister here. They are prototypical "commercial" vs "show" stock in my opinion. Even though that is supposed to be the same.


I agree that it could have some bearing on how a does udder looks, but I always have dam raised kids and I like nice shaved udders to milk, I start milking at 3 weeks fresh after a separation of 8 hours and the pics I have of my does on my website are while they are feeding their kids... I don't have the time or the funds to show my goats but it does not mean that they aren't show quality.


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## Mossy Ridge (Jun 12, 2012)

No disagreement, there are a lot of places that have it all and don't show. I just meant that if you look at all the pictures on that website, there isn't alot of effort put into making anything look better which makes it difficult to judge. I have seen alot of does in person that look nothing like their pictures because they were posed and many that were much more impressive in person than their pictures.

If I may ask, what specifically don't any of you like about the udder? Maybe I can learn from your criticism.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

What I personally don't like is that the udder is set low, I like to see good rear udder height and this udder is dropped down a bit. I also don't like the smallish teats that wing out and the MSL could be nicer also. What I do like is the rear attachments look good, good capacity, and the width is good as well...if it was just higher up through the escutcheon i'd like it more. :thumb:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Timachee actually has a nice capacious udder..but going by rear shot alone, she could use more height in the rear, better medial and better teat placement. The doe herself is too thick IMO, her build is short and stout, not a dairy looking doe.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Yeah...she's kind of an "older style" doe. I actually like the old style (and new too), but the new style is definately what most breeders are after. That refined, elegant dairy look.


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## Mossy Ridge (Jun 12, 2012)

O.k., so "old style" is what I'm calling "commercial" (sheep terms), and I definitely see that. I have other questions about that but maybe I will start another thread later concerning those things.
You guys are great with your descriptions :thumb: . Looking at the udder I see what you mean and this will definitely help me critique better!


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

There are many critique threads too if you wanted to dig through them. May really help with learning conformation. :thumb:


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## InChristAloneMom (May 23, 2012)

Mossy Ridge said:


> we have Tarek's littermate sister here.


Oh, now how cool is that? :greengrin:


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## InChristAloneMom (May 23, 2012)

Mossy Ridge said:


> If I may ask, what specifically don't any of you like about the udder? Maybe I can learn from your criticism.


Well, I am not saying that she has a 'bad' or 'horrible' udder at all. I am seeing the exact same things that have already been mentioned {not only about the udder - but I also like longer and leaner style on a dairy goat}.

The thing is, I am still quite new, and trying to decide what my own herd goals are. And that particular udder, IMO, and that particular body style IMO, is really not what I am after, after I have had more time to research, look, etc... On the other hand, my other buck does have more of my 'ideal' on those two things, at least as far as I can see. But the second opinions were nice to have because I AM inexperienced. 

So given that, now I do wonder if for *me* and what I am looking for, if it would be not wise to breed Tarek so I don't end up with kids that won't meet my personal goals {and I know it's all a gamble, but there is nothing wrong with helping/preventing I guess}. Hope that makes sense.

Timachee seems to be a very well liked and sought-after Doe, according to her owner, and I am not, in any means dissing her, I am just learning more and more what I want - I guess that is the way to explain it? :wink:


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## Mossy Ridge (Jun 12, 2012)

This is one of those times that if we were talking in person you would know by my tone that I understand that you were making an evaluation for what is best for you and your herd  .
I was more curious about the evaluation/critique of Timachee's udder from the photo. By asking about that and reading the responses it actually opened my eyes.

I may also be a little "Timachee blind" because seeing her in person, she is one of those goats that carry a "regal" sense about her.


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## InChristAloneMom (May 23, 2012)

Mossy Ridge said:


> This is one of those times that if we were talking in person you would know by my tone that I understand that you were making an evaluation for what is best for you and your herd  .


 :hug: Yes, it can be hard sometimes in written communications.


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