# Emergency - dead babies...more coming! Please help!!



## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Please help me figure this out!

I have six goats, have been a goat owner for about a year, and was approaching my first kidding season. I had two pregnant does - one due on the 23rd of this month, and the other (I think) due nearer the 29th. Both were third-time kidders with successful past kiddings.

Yesterday morning - the 12th - was going to be busy, as my family and I were leaving to attend a funeral an hour and a half away at midday.

I went out to do the morning chores pretty late (probably past nine) and let pregnant doe #1 (Sassy, due on the 23rd) into the milking room to have her breakfast. I thought that as I had only a week and a half to go, I'd better start checking her ligaments and get this figured out.

I checked her, and the ligs were GONE. :think: I guessed that meant we would have kids in a day or two. Her udder had been filling, but wasn't balloon-tight like folks describe it.

I let her out of the room, and decided to get fresh hay and leave Sassy shut in while we attended the funeral, just in case. AS SHE WALKED AWAY there was suddenly a smudge of blood on her vagina. She trotted out to the middle of the rocky pen and there was a huge amniotic sac (??) - round, dark and red, coming out. I legged it - tethered the dogs, shut up the cat, and grabbed a barrow of hay. By the time I got the hay back - wanting to get her in the pen - there was a filthy baby on the ground. 

My first instinct was to check it's mouth and nose - all was clean, and it was breathing. BAM. Another sac, another baby...I didn't even see it happen...not quite sure how. Maybe I was grabbing rags then.

Checked this baby - all breathing, all clear. Huge relief and happiness. I had been expecting a long labour and dreading having to pull! They were bleating and trying to get up...so cute! And they were doelings... a milky brown one (no #1) with a few black markings and a cream one (no #2) with grey patches.

After ten mins of elation, I noticed baby #1 looked wrong. She seemed to be having some trouble breathing...her tongue was hanging out a little...nothing obvious, but I had a bad gut feeling. From then on, she got worse and worse. Her heartbeat and breathing were very weak. We massaged her, dried her, moved both babies and mama inside, dried them off, and tried to keep her warm and encourage mama to look after her - she was pretty disinterested.

Baby #1 was weak and floppy. Within about half an hour maybe, she slipped away. We were sad, but concentrated on kid #2. She had seemed fine, but now started going downhill.

Mama was NOT doing her job, so I kept rubbing baby with towels, cuddled her on my lap with a hot water bottle, massaged her...no improvement. I kept getting drops of milk on my fingertips and putting it by her nose and mouth, but she was not interested. After another 30 mins or so, I got desperate and started trickling colustum into her mouth, and had a friend massaging her little throat to help her swallow. Mama, meanwhile, was pigging hay and afterbirth! :GAAH: 

We lost that baby too. Eventually her little tongue went blue and her heartbeat and breathing got too weak, and she just slipped away. :blue::blue::blue:

I was sad, but Mama was well (a blessing!) and eating and drinking, so I had to bury babies and run to get the muck and mucus and poop and afterbirth off me in time to get to the funeral.

Mama is great this morning, happy, well, temp 102.2.

Here's my main worry - I have mama #2 to consider. What went wrong with the first kids?! I need to try and figure it out so I can be prepared for the next kid/kids. 

I am seriously thinking it may have been fescue poisoning, as we had naively been feeding our goats the lovely-smelling, golden, perfect (!!!) hay all year clueless. I only even discovered fescue toxicity while researching last night. And my two one-year-old Nubian doelings have had a nagging cough, which has bothered me but seemed causeless, and now I am attributing to Fescue.

Do you all think it was fescue toxicity, and if so or not, what can I be doing for mama #2 and her soon-arriving babies?!

She is a Boer/Nubian/Something cross, has been kidded twice before, and has had singletons both times. 

I am not in a Selenium-deficient area. I have been feeding the Mamas hay, goat pellets once a day, free-choice minerals, free-choice fresh water (of course!!!) and they have been going out to browse since the weather warmed up.

Please help me try to rescue the next babies in advance! :help: I will be posting this in the medical section too to increase views and potential help for my babies!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Have you removed the fescue? Only way to know for sure is to do a necropsy.

Sorry you lost the kids.


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

How sure are you on her due date? If you are certain than I would think they were premature and their lungs weren't fully developed, hence the breathing issues and tongue going blue. They do a LOT of developing right at the very end and lungs finish up pretty close to delivery day. As mentioned there really isn't really any way to be sure short of a necropsy.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

I am almost exactly sure of the breeding date for two reasons - I only had those two does in with a buck, and that for only a week (he was very grouchy and I was glad to send him home..) and I went with the first date I saw him breed each doe (for doe #1, it was about two minutes after putting him in with the gals...) and then counted 150 days!


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

War Pony - would being 11/12 days early really make that huge of a difference? I know this sounds mean, but it would be wonderful if it was just prematurity as that means my next kids may be ok! Would there be any particular cause for the early arrival?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes. It can make that much of a difference being premature. Hopefully that is all it is. I would still remove any fescue hay.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Ksalvagno - I had just bought new hay but need to check whether it is Fescue too. If so I will ban it and let them graze brush without hay while I track down some Bermuda.

Here is a pic of the beautiful babies before I realised they weren't going to make it...very newly-arrived.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss. :hug: I would guess preemie birth. the only way to really know what's going on is to have a necropsy.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What is that yellow on them? That isn't what the coating over them normally looks like.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Karen - they were covered in that yellow mucus (so was I). I was surprised by the colour but assumed it was normal. Maybe that is a clue??!! Their soft little hooves were yellowy too.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

You can see Mama's nose in this pic, for size comparison. They were tiny, but perfectly formed. I have no idea if they were unusually small, and didn't weigh them as I was too busy fighting to keep them alive. I should have weighed them afterwards.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes. A necropsy would probably give you some answers. I have never seen yellow before so I have no idea why. I'd probably look more into what all the fescue can do.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm trying..it's hard. Most info (and there's precious little of it) is about horses and foaling. They are generally OVERdue, LARGE foals, and have to be pulled! :-/ But the weak lungs and struggling with breathing sounds right.


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## eqstrnathlete (Mar 16, 2013)

I wonder if mom had a uterine infection, hence the yellow.


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## AvyNatFarm (Oct 29, 2013)

Does chlymidia cause yellow sacs like that??? Idk, just a thought because late term abortions can be a sign. So sorry about your loss.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

I'll research that, AvyNatFarm. Would it be considered an 'abortion' if they were born live though? Just found an article that sounds interesting:

Quote:

"...In general, any sort of stress to the fetus in the time shortly before delivery can cause the reflexive passage of meconium. This is of no consequence. If, however, the kid(s) is in great distress, not only will it pass meconium, but it may have deep gasping respiratory movements and pull the meconium down deep into the bronchial tubes of the lungs (meconium aspiration syndrome). This can cause serious problems of pneumonia and collapsed lungs (pneumothorax)..."

Baby #1 had runny poop (meconium!) all down it's legs. Suspicious?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Definitely possible.


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

I've had kids pass the meconium in the sack but it didn't stain them yellow, it was darker. That doesn't mean it wasn't meconium, it very well could have been. 11 to 13 days in an animal with a relatively short gestation like goats can make a huge difference. It is hard to say what could cause premature labour.. dietary, nutritional, stress related, getting headbutted in the wrong place at the wrong time or just who knows? Hopefully it was just a one time thing and the rest of your experiences will be better.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Oh, and on a different note - I froze yesterday's colostrum for any bottle babies to come, if needed. Mama needs milking twice a day - is it ok to use today's milk for human consumption or will it still have colostrum in it?

I'm hoping and praying it was one-time as I really don't want mama #2 to lose her babies too.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It will have remnants of colostrum for up to 2 weeks.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Yes, that early the lungs would not be developed. Goats are not like humans and the last 2-3 weeks they do almost all of their growing and put the finishing touches on development.

I just went thru that with one of my does, I lost 3 of the 4. 2 had been born dead. I had to give the kids shots of dexamethasone to help develop the lungs. It worked for the little doe, who made it. The little male was just too weak to make it.

Sorry you lost the 2 doelings.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

How about Selenium deficiency? I live in NW AR, which is a 'maybe' for Selenium deficiency, but all my other goats are healthy and my neighbor's Nubian just had triplets that are perfectly healthy.

I'm just thinking doe #2 might need BoSe...


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

The yellow would be from them pooping before they were born, meaning they were stressed sometime before birth. All of my kids that are bigger and need help being pulled come out a little yellow like that. I would guess that the kids were born too early and that is why they died, the tongues going blue sounds like a lack of oxygen meaning their lungs could not work properly. I would send one or both in for a necropsy to be sure.

All of my goats are on fescue and bermuda grass all the time and I don't have any issues with toxicity. Yes they have big kids sometimes, but not always and it is only my Saanens that have big kids which seems to be the norm for them.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Thanks for your response, PTGoats! I have spent all afternoon researching, and feel more confused than when I started. :-/ It COULD be Fescue poisoning, but the symptoms don't really match up. It COULD be Selenium deficiency...depends whose article you read.

I think simple prematurity/stress is the most likely candidate though. After all, mama could have been rammed by another goat during the night or something.  She is the lowest on the pecking order.

It was like their lungs just gradually, slowly gave up. They seemed so fine at first...and baby #2 seemed fine for quite a while. Something was wrong with their little lungs - their breathing gradually became laboured and weak. I just don't know what caused it.  Poor babies.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Eqstrnathlete - I don't think Mom had an infection, as she has no temp. and it not unhappy/off her feed.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> It will have remnants of colostrum for up to 2 weeks.


Does that mean two WEEKS of milk wasted?! Yikes! 2 Quarts a day...can it be used in any way?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can freeze it for future goat use. Feed it to your other animals. Make soap. Just try it daily until it tastes good.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> You can freeze it for future goat use. Feed it to your other animals. Make soap. Just try it daily until it tastes good.


Soap...brilliant idea! I've been wanting to make some but wouldn't use our valuable drinking milk. Thanks.  Of course I'll save plenty for future babies too, just in case.


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## jannerbanner (Apr 1, 2014)

I just had preemie babies born 10 days early, 2 DOA and saved one. I think that it is hard for preemies to maintain their body temp. I had to get our one little doeling into a warm bathroom where she was breathing warm air for a couple days before her own regulator kicked in. I've been told with really early kids to make a tent over a chair and warm the air they are breathing and them with a blowdryer. To keep taking temp and rewarm as needed.
I am truly sorry for your loss and feel your pain. I am scared to death about my other 5 does that are due between the 18th and 29th.....


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

I know what you mean, Jannerbanner. I'm scared for our next babies too! I was torn between bringing baby #2 (who held on much longer) indoors for warmth or keeping her outside (where I was holding her wrapped up and with a hot water bottle) because I really wanted to get her mama to lick and stimulate her.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Ok - New emergency! Doe#2 kidded at 6.30 this morn.

All seemed well, kids standing, kid#1 wasnursing. Kid no.2 dies suddenly, so we took kid #2's temp. really low. Brought him inddors, between hairdryer and hot water bottle he is up to 103.1.

Excuse typos--he is on my lap!!

We cant get him to nurse from a bottle of mama's milk. He was nursing from her udder like a champ before he started chilling and we had to bring him in.

HE is bleating and moving aroun don my lap, but wont nurse. Shoudl I take him out to mama to nurse or not? I would take the hot water bottle and towel. 

PLEAsE help!!!


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## GoatGirlZ (Apr 24, 2014)

i woiuld take him to the mom to egt some food and then bring him back in if he gets cold agian if you dont want to do that tube feed him:hug:


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## FutureHopeFarm (Feb 4, 2014)

He's still alive though? Is it because he is weak or can you tell? If it's weakness I would say perhaps tube feeding? I'm certainly not an expert. Have you seen him nurse?


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Thank you for your advice!

I took him out (well wrapped in a towel and my fleece, along with his hot water bottle) out to his mom. She was grieving over the dead kid, but perked up when she heard Cadbury (the kids we were working on!) cry. He nursed, stood up (YAYYYYY!!!!), and then I snuggled him back in a patch of sunlight with hot water bottle and wraps. Checked his temp every five mins or so (poor guy) and it has remained above 102, so no probs there.

He had a nap, (so did mama) whilst I sat by him and watched carefully to check his breathing was ok and he WAS just napping. He just woke up, stood up, and nursed for dear life! Hoorah! He was walking around fabulously. My mom is watching them right now..I've just run in to clean off all the meconium (he pooped on me BAD, several times) and blood and mucous as I have another doe who is yelling at me because I haven't milked her yet! Going to milk her now and keep watching him. Maybe after that we can eat breakfast or have a drink.  (It's 11:43 here!)

I literally went from a run to the barn from my bed this morn. Well, I did dress, but FAST!!! :-D So glad he is doing well!!! The mama has been eating hay, grain, and some minerals. Going to give her some probiotic. I'll update you how he is doing!


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

He is still doing well...temp at 102. He's been nursing like a champ & tottering around.

For some bizarre reason my labrador is guarding the dead kid (we took it away from mama to make her focus on the live kid). Not taking it, not touching it, just guarding it. Only we are allowed to touch it, apparently. She snapped at the cat and snarled at the other does (and was duly reproved!) when they came near. 

Finally got the other doe milked and all the other animals tended. Time for a cup of tea. Maybe even something to eat! Then back out to check Dusty (mama) and Cadbury (baby!).


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Cadbury


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I am sorry you lost another one but keep up the work on Cadbury. I would let him take care of himself with the body temp. He needs to learn to maintain it himself. Leave him out with mom so she can take care of him.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Although the symptoms didn't seem to match up with Fescue toxicity, I'm thinking that is what has caused all these problems. After all, having two sets of babies in a row struggling seems to indicate something is being done wrong, surely. These two had some meconium staining too, though not so bad as the two doelings.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

sorry for the dead babies, but congrats on Cadbury!! he is absolutely adorable!


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

help please! Cadbury has been fine all day and now is groaning/whimpering, breathing is laboured and he is pooping thick solid-ish globs of horrendous stinky yellow poop. it's like it' s hurting him! Te,p is 100.1 and he's on my lap on a hot water bottle indoors and i'm so scared for him...what's wrong now?!

Warm him more? He's weak and crying!!! Is his tummy just upset? Is he gojng to die on me after all???

I gave him a little (4cc) probiotic paste yesterday because it SAID to..have I poisoned him??!!!


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

He keeps doing lumps of the poop...he is whimpering and his breathing is laboured and then he writhes, yells, and poops again. He's done it at least six times since I brought him in. It's like..plugs of it. Not hard, exactly, but stiff and sticky.

And it's obviously hurting him so bad!!!


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

You should start a new thread so that folks know this new emergency has popped up. My babies all had yellow poop while they were nursing, but not the pain symptoms.


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