# Thin goat, causes?



## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Before replamin and copper boluse
View attachment 150543









one week after copper boluse and replamin.
















Third week

7th Week. Wow its been a long time. her hair is really smoothing if you compare the first to this one its way better.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Can you get a fecal for cocci and worms?

What minerals are they getting?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

She gets this kind of minerals 
*Manna Pro Goat Mineral Supplement, 8 lb. from tsc*
And how do I do a fecal?
what supplies do I need?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Get a fresh sample of poop, (I use a small ziplock for storage) and take it to your vet. Ask that a check for coccidia be done as well. I drop off the sample, pay for the test and get called back later that day with the results.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

how much do those run cost wise?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

That is a super de duper copper definicient goat. Honestly, one of the best teaching photographs I have seen in a while of classic fur curling caused by copper deficiency. She is also likely very deficient in other minerals. 

I bet she turns 3 shades darker when you get her back to copper sufficient. Was she darker when she was younger?

You need some or all of the following: Replamin Plus paste, Copper Boluses (Copasure or UltraCrus), or MultiMin90 cattle injectable. 

When is she due? If she is that copper deficient I'll bet money she is selenium deficient and you better hurry to get selenium into her before she kids!!

Fecal Analysis are typically around $20 at the vets office but ask your vet... it varies widely.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

healthyishappy said:


> how much do those run cost wise?


The cost will vary according to what the vet charges for those services. You could call your vet, or a few vets and get a ball park price that way. Compared to the purchase price of a goat, it's a small fraction of that amount.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

And I suggest a better mineral, but they work slowly and you don't have time. At the very least you need Replamin Gel Plus.

You can go to the online site for TSC and order Replamin to be shipped to your store. There is an applicator gun to fit that size tube, you'll need that, too. 

When it comes in, give 10 cc the first day, then 5 cc every day after that for 4 days. Then 5 cc every week. You also need iodine for the developing kids because Manna Pro is low in iodine. An iodized salt block will help with that. Some TSC stores offer a greenish Selenium salt block. If yours will, then definitely get that one, but even the usual reddish mineral salt block will do.

This is urgent because of the pregnancy. That is why we are reacting this way. Manna Pro is desperately low in Selenium, quite low in iodine, and inadequate in most cases for copper (obviously inadequate in this particular goat's case) and you can't have healthy babies without these. Please get the Replamin for a quick, but safe, turnaround.

And yes, definitely get the fecal done and ask that it include a coccidia check. Keep us updated, please. And thanks for writing.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

While you are at TSC, go ahead and pick up a bag of this
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-wind-rain-storm-all-season-75-complete?cm_vc=-10005
and a bag of this
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-textured-stocker-grower-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005
or this
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...grower-supreme-cattle-feed-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

At my vet the last fecal I got was 13.13$ but that was about 2 years ago, because I now do my own fecals. You will need a fecal done to know what parasites you are dealing with and then know what wormer you are going to need. 

As for the mineral deficiency, she really needs some good minerals . To me, you should just completely stop feeding the manna pro minerals and get purina Wind and rain minerals that can be found at tsc. They are cattle minerals, but do great for my goats and probably will do awesome for yours too. Go online, order copper blouses for goats, buy replamin plus GEL and selenium / vitamin E gel for goats. And , I would go ahead and give a BoSe shot. She NEEDS this stuff! The blocks that others have mentioned are also a great product for her to have a quick safe turn around


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Welcome to the forum!
My goats will get like that without serious copper supplementation. If you are watering off of municipal water, like me, or a well with hard water this may happen.

Edited to may happen from happens


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All good advice.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Dwarf Dad said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> My goats will get like that without serious copper supplementation. If you are watering off of municipal water, like me, or a well with hard water this happens.


Let's not say it must always happen. It CAN happen, and it is much more likely. BUT there are ways to prevent this, you just need to be much more on top of mineral needs when you know you have an antagonistic water source.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Was she darker when she was younger?


ok I will get some of these ordered as asap.
I'm glad I asked that would be sad if the kids died
I have only had her for a year. I bought her in this exact condition with twins.
I never thought anything was wrong then but come to find out she can't keep weight and should have a silky smooth coat.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Not that this matters but she actually is 3 not 2 yr old.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

how do you feed the replanim plus paste?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

And how can I prevent this in the future?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW7QLOE/ref=ox_sc_act_image_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003M1CX9K/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A1F17884ISY0OO&psc=1


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HHLHGC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

are these the right products?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

*Keeping mouth shut about ultra cruz* straining~ it's trying to get out


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

healthyishappy said:


> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW7QLOE/ref=ox_sc_act_image_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003M1CX9K/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A1F17884ISY0OO&psc=1


This smaller size tube of Replamin does not need an applicator gun in order to dispense it. The dosage amounts are marked on the plunger notches. The larger size is 300 cc and looks a lot like a tube of caulk in size and appearance. This size will need the applicator gun. There is a site called Jeffers pets that carries a line of livestock products, it is less expensive than amazon and offers free shipping on orders around $50 or so.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

As for the replamin plus i would get this one, it will last longer and there is more in there
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/vets-plus-replamin-gel-plus-300-cc-tube


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here 
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/goat-snax-5lb


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

healthyishappy said:


> never mind shipping is only 6 bucks might as well do that.
> Thanks all for helping me know what to do I really appreciate it.


They also have copper bolus in both the 2 and 4 gram sizes. Noticed those were on your list of products.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

You give the Replamin Paste orally, just squirt it in the side of the mouth far back on the tongue. 

It's going to take a while to see improvement, so be patient and keep dosing!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Will this work? I can get if for less if I buy both a tsc instead of jeffers pets.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/vets-plus-gel-paste-applicator-2202878


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> You give the Replamin Paste orally, just squirt it in the side of the mouth far back on the tongue.
> 
> It's going to take a while to see improvement, so be patient and keep dosing!


cool Thanks. 
Do I keep dosing in smaller amounts even after she is restored to full health?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, you do the 5 days straight "loading dose" as they say and then weekly for life after that... since the loose minerals have proven to not be quite enough for her she needs the extra (as do all your goats probably, she just exhibits it)


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Ok cool.
And she only needs one copper boluses a year a month or what?
most of what Ive learned says 8-12 months is this correct?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

This is different for every area. I do twice a year here. 
If I can't afford the Replamin for awhile I need to do more. 
I dose at 1 gram per 22 lbs so most of mine get 2 bolus.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Ok final this is what I plan to get tommorow
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW7QLOE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

And these for tsc

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/vets-plus-replamin-gel-plus-300-cc-tube-1133559

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/vets-plus-gel-paste-applicator-2202878

then weekly give 5cc of the replamin to each goat.
and 8-12 months for the copper boluses or as needed.

Sound good?
if there is anything that I am planning to buy or do that you don't think wise please comment.
I have only had goats for a 1-1/2 years and still have plenty to learn so all comments are appreciated.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

goathiker said:


> This is different for every area. I do twice a year here.
> If I can't afford the Replamin for awhile I need to do more.
> I dose at 1 gram per 22 lbs so most of mine get 2 bolus.


Okay my doe probably weighs about 80-100 lbs so 1 is probably good.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Are you actually in Cresswell? If so there are some hay issues we have.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

No, I don't understand how did you get that I live in Cresswell?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

goathiker said:


> *Keeping mouth shut about ultra cruz* straining~ it's trying to get out


What's wrong with ultracruz?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Cresswell tsc is where your links went.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

healthyishappy said:


> What's wrong with ultracruz?


They have a long history of animal abuse. USDA has filed reports of untreated broken legs, untreated coyote attacks, etc. Dying sheep, goats, and horses. Open untreated abscesses~the reports don't state whether it was CL. 
On one inspection USDA found a hidden barn containing an extra 400 large animals. 
They finally have lost their license to work with goats, sheep, and horses but still maintain small animals.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I would plan to give her a 4 gram bolus three times a year at this point but it will be based on the improvement you see with Replamin.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> I would plan to give her a 4 gram bolus three times a year at this point but it will be based on the improvement you see with Replamin.


Ok thanks!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

goathiker said:


> They have a long history of animal abuse. USDA has filed reports of untreated broken legs, untreated coyote attacks, etc. Dying sheep, goats, and horses. Open untreated abscesses~the reports don't state whether it was CL.
> On one inspection USDA found a hidden barn containing an extra 400 large animals.
> They finally have lost their license to work with goats, sheep, and horses but still maintain small animals.


Oh well I don't know how it got there I live in southern utah.


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

For the Replamin Plus Gel, I use a regular construction gun. I just cut the end to fit. Then I take 5ml syringes and fill them up. Every Friday everybody gets a dose. Works for me.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Got it all ordered!
copper boluses should be here Tuesday.
And I just picked up the applicator gun today.
Not sure when the replamin should be here.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Gosh ! I bet you had no idea what you were asking for  But aren't you glad you ask. Now you know what you need to do, so good luck and we all are hoping you have good healthy kids.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

TexasGoatMan said:


> we all are hoping you have good healthy kids.


Me too!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

TexasGoatMan said:


> Gosh ! I bet you had no idea what you were asking for  But aren't you glad you ask


Yes very.

I really appreciate the help. I always thought there was something the matter but couldn't figure it out.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

:goodjob:


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Will her milk production increase when I give her these minerals?
When I milked her in the fall she would give me 6 cups for 1 milking and 3 1/2 if I milked her twice a day.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Which isn't much for this size goat


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Not sure about increasing the amount of milk, so many things factor into milk production. Diet, genetics, overall health of the doe, supply and demand..... You will however have a more healthy goat with a better immune system to help fight off some of the ailments that can plaque goats in general.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Mineral levels contribute to health. Health contributes to production.

But many things combine to produce milk or meat or kids. Protein, water, stress or lack thereof, fat (in the diet) air quality, level of exercise, genetics, stage of lactation, how often she's milked...

So there is no guarantee that providing adequacy in one area would overcome this entire issue.

Hope that helps.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

She may be trying to dry up for the birth of her baby.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Mineral levels contribute to health. Health contributes to production.
> 
> But many things combine to produce milk or meat or kids. Protein, water, stress or lack thereof, fat (in the diet) air quality, level of exercise, genetics, stage of lactation, how often she's milked...
> So there is no guarantee than providing adequacy in one area would overcome this entire issue.
> ...


Ok thanks. I'm not currently milking her because I had to dry her up in fall when she got really bad diarrhea. So she might produce more depending on different factors
Her mom gave three quarts to the milking. She would have gave more but she was only milked once a day. Her dad I'm not sure.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Copper boluses arrived today. I gave a whole 4 gram one to my alpine doe. I gave it to her in a banana and she gobbled it. Whew no problem.
Replamin is supposed to be here thursday.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

I plan to take weekly pictures to see the difference. I'll post them here.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Photographs are fantastic! Do you have a current full body photo to post now?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Yes I'll post it soon.
I took it before I copper bolused her. I want to see how much the copper and replamin make a difference.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)




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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

This one is to show how rough her coat is.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

The black and white goat is a alpine\nigerian. I gave her two grams copper (had to shove it in her mouth). Do you think I should give her replamin too?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)




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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would do the 5 day loader dose then do weekly with Replamin Plus.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, both goats need both the Replamin and the Copper bolus. 

You are going to be amazed at the color change of your larger doe in 6 months


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> I would do the 5 day loader dose then do weekly with Replamin Plus.


Ok I agree.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Yes, both goats need both the Replamin and the Copper bolus.
> 
> You are going to be amazed at the color change of your larger doe in 6 months


Yes it will be interesting.
What color do you think she will turn?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Chocolate & cream! Similar to that line down her spine, maybe even darker.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Oh cool. I kinda wondered if she would turn that color.
1


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> I would do the 5 day loader dose then do weekly with Replamin Plus.


Do I give the same amount to each (5cc) even though one is twice the size?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What breeds are they?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

The alpine(the one this thread is about) I plan to give her 5cc.
And the black and white alpine/nigerian.
It seems like since the alpine is twice the size that the alpine/Nigerian would get less. Am I wrong?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Were she mine, I'd give the same amount because she is so deficient.
But half the amount is technically correct for a mini, which she technically is, being a cross between a standard and a dwarf.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Ok so give her 5cc for life? or just until she is completely healthy?
What would you do? I was just going to give her 5cc every two weeks.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Give her the loading time, then every week until she's healthy. Then decide?

If you are combining the boluses, with the Replamin, it shouldn't take long. Unless you are dealing with Massive Amounts of antagonists.

I no longer give it weekly. I give when I see they have a need for something extra that my excellent mineral mix hasn't been able to maintain. Other people give it weekly. And still other people give it until healthy and then never offer it again.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Give her the loading time, then every week until she's healthy. Then decide?


Ok good idea. I guess I'll just see if 5cc every two weeks is enough and then if she needs more do once a week.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I no longer give it weekly. I give when I see they have a need for something extra that my excellent mineral mix hasn't been able to maintain. Other people give it weekly. And still other people give it until healthy and then never offer it again.


What mineral mix do you use?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Thanks for giving me your experienced thoughts I'm just a newbie at goats and all help is so appreciated. I came on this forum for help though I thought she was okay because she is happy but i'm glad I did. I wish I had sooner her date for kidding is april 26 so the faster she gets minerals into the kids the more likely I'll have some alive kids.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

healthyishappy said:


> What mineral mix do you use?


http://www.ourcoop.com/productcatalog/Main/PdfViewer.aspx?el=58310


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Ok thanks.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Do you give replamin or copper boluses your goats even with giving them minerals?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Yes, I have had to supplement with one or both of the above mentioned products at one time or the other in addition to having loose minerals available at all times.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes. The mineral mix is paramount. And every so often we have to supplement a particular nutrient or other.

Like you yourself need an excellent nutrient rich diet. And still sometimes some vitamin C is helpful.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Ok thanks


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

quick question: what will happen to her kids if they do not have proper levels of minerals at birth? Can they still live?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

It is the nutrition they get BEFORE birth that is important. Not AT birth.

Right now, as they are developing.

Or they may abort. They may be still born. They may be deformed. They may look ok, but be brain damaged.

So. Nutrition. Now. Pretty vital.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> they may abort. They may be still born. They may be deformed. They may look ok, but be brain damaged.


That's what I wanted to know.
Since she's already four months pregnant I'll just have to prepare for the worst.
I really hope to have live kids though.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Could my doe be affected by the kids stillborn or anything like that?
I love my doe she is so sweet!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Got the replamin last night. Going to start administering as soon as the sun comes up.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

:goodjob: don't be alarmed if the goats make ugly faces, try to spit it out or start licking their tongue back and forth across the roof of their mouth to rid themselves of the gel. It dissolves fairly quick and if you are a treat giver, a piece of their favorite helps wash it down, get rid of the taste and is like a reward for taking their dose.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Every goat is different, too. Some love it, and want to suck on the tube, while others it can be a rodeo to get them to take it.:cowboy:


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

NigerianNewbie said:


> :goodjob: don't be alarmed if the goats make ugly faces, try to spit it out or start licking their tongue back and forth across the roof of their mouth to rid themselves of the gel. It dissolves fairly quick and if you are a treat giver, a piece of their favorite helps wash it down, get rid of the taste and is like a reward for taking their dose.


Ok great idea!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Dwarf Dad said:


> Every goat is different, too. Some love it, and want to suck on the tube, while others it can be a rodeo to get them to take it.:cowboy:


Ya I know what you mean. My alpine will eat anything I put in my hand but my alpine Nigerian I have to shove it in her mouth and make her chew it


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

As DwarfDad wrote in his post, some goats actually like the taste. You'll know which ones will like or dislike it. Mine definitely do not, and the first couple of doses had them acting like I was trying to poison them or something. Kind of scared me just a little.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Oh that's good to know.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Would the replamin still work to full effect if I fed it to my goats on a piece of bread?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Replamin Plus sandwich? Sure why not. Fold one end with no replamin and take a bite first. You know they have to have some then!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Ya totally, thanks.
At least this way my one goat might eat it.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Gave them their first dose(10cc) Tried it on bread.that didn't work so I just injected it in their mouths. They seemed to like it.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

That's great news, that they like it. :clapping:


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Yup made it easy on me


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Finished today's 5cc dose, was a pain this time I think next time I'll feed it in a bowl of grain my goats love grain!
I know this doesn't apply to this thread but what do you think is better for a grain
Oats, rolled oats or sweet feed? Any other suggestions for grain. It would be for milking and treats


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I got to a point that I gave my goats oats and alfalfa pellets. They did well on it. They had grass hay with some clover, Cargill Right Now Onyx Mineral, Replamin Plus weekly, Himalayan salt lick and a cobalt block.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

I give alfalfa pellets and sweet feed but I think I'm going to change to oats seems like that's better. Plus my sweet feed usually molds.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Tommorows the last day of loading dose for replamin and first week after copper bolus. I'll post pictures tomorrow. I'm not expecting much difference because it's only been one week.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Great start though. I'm sure she will improve in time.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Yup I totally agree!!!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Ditto.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Sorry no pics. Was kinda busy today, hopefully tomorrow.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

I'm going to put all the pics in my first post so you don't have to go searching to compare pics.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

posted the pics in first post


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Posted new pics. Really seeing a difference in her weight gain. Her hair Is getting softer. The little one is way softer too


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yay!!! How does this make you feel?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

HAPPY!!!!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Keep up the good work! I know supplementing all the time is a hassle. The minerals can't change the existing hairs but as new ones grow in she will get softer and softer


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You know she's going to change color right? I can already see dark hairs coming in.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

goathiker said:


> You know she's going to change color right? I can already see dark hairs coming in.


Yes we talked about that on page 4 -its going to be amazing right?!? I guessed a chocolate color. These are seriously some of the best mineral deficiency photos everrrrrrr!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I think she might be a cou Blanc actually.

Guessing game? 

Cou Clair (tan with black hind quarters/trim) 

Cou Blanc (white/cream with black hind quarters/trim) 

Two tone chamoisee (white/cream with brown or gray hind quarters, some black trim)


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks for defining those, I never know! My guess is Two Tone Chamoisee


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

goathiker said:


> You know she's going to change color right? I can already see dark hairs coming in.


Yes


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

quick question: when I copper bolused her I gave her 4 grams which equals 88 pounds then I measured her with a tape and converted it to pounds it said 140 pounds. should I give her two more grams of copper?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

healthyishappy said:


> quick question: when I copper bolused her I have her 4 grams which equals 88 pounds then I measured her with a tape and converted it to pounds it said 140 pounds. should I give her two more grams of copper?


Is this a dwarf goat?!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Yes, the copper is absorbed slowly, will not have to worry about overdosing for that one extra gram.

Edit: was typing when other answer got there,tape wrong if dwarf.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

nope, full alpine.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Dwarf Dad said:


> was typing when other answer got there,tape wrong if dwarf.


ya I know she has to be about 140 because I can't lift her anymore.
The alpine/nigerian doe I have who's 1 year old is about 75 pounds and I only gave her two grams should I give her another as well?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm pretty fearless when it comes to copper bolusing (copper oxide rods, meant for slow release in livestock)

I say give it to her. I've never caused harm in that way to an undeniably deficient goat.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

ok cool.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

I am going to do that today.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

14 days left till she's due.
day 136.
Crossing my fingers that she won't kid when i'm out of town. I might not get back till the 24.


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## Iluvlilly! (Apr 6, 2019)

Hope everything goes well!! Hope the don't kid when you are gone!!!:goodjob:onder:


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

gave them the copper. 
Her udder is full now but her ligaments ( if I am checking the right place lol) are firm.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

will post pics next week. been so busy.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Got home no kids. Whew
Hoping for triplets. Nothing coming out of her vulva but her udder filled about a week ago. her ligaments are still full.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

mariarose said:


> I'm pretty fearless when it comes to copper bolusing (copper oxide rods, meant for slow release in livestock)
> 
> I say give it to her. I've never caused harm in that way to an undeniably deficient goat.


@healthyishappy I'm with maria here - I would have popped 12 grams of copper bolus into this goat without a second thought. With such a clear case of copper deficiency, you likely won't see a smooth dark silky coat for several months, I would give her another copper bolus is 2-3 months.

It looks like the kids are still sitting fairly high on the right side? I would guess she has at least a few more days until kidding. Have you given any selenium supplementation? Sorry if we already covered that, I didn't re-read the thread to brush up.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> @healthyishappy I'm with maria here - I would have popped 12 grams of copper bolus into this goat without a second thought. With such a clear case of copper deficiency, you likely won't see a smooth dark silky coat for several months, I would give her another copper bolus is 2-3 months.
> 
> It looks like the kids are still sitting fairly high on the right side? I would guess she has at least a few more days until kidding. Have you given any selenium supplementation? Sorry if we already covered that, I didn't re-read the thread to brush up.


I have still been giving replamin. is that what you mean? or like straight selenium.

Total she has gotten 6 grams copper. should I give her 6 more? or wait 2-3 months? does it matter? I will give her more now if you think I should.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

healthyishappy said:


> I have still been giving replamin. is that what you mean? or like straight selenium.
> 
> Total she has gotten 6 grams copper. should I give her 6 more? or wait 2-3 months? does it matter?


Selenium e gel, not replamin.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

where can I get that? Do you think its too late to make any difference since she is only 3 days from her due date?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Almost anywhere. TSC usually or any farm store it's as common as probios.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

This? https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/durvet-lamb-kid-selenium-vitamin-e-gel-52983?cm_vc=-10005
Should I get some still?
And how much and how often do I give it?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Yes.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Why @NigerianDwarfOwner707 ? Replamin Plus contains MORE selenium than the regular Selenium/Vit E gel. Replamin Plus is way better.

@healthyishappy - if she has been getting the Replamin Plus weekly then the kids should have no selenium deficiency issues when born. That's perfect.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

healthyishappy said:


> Total she has gotten 6 grams copper. should I give her 6 more? or wait 2-3 months? does it matter? I will give her more now if you think I should.


Since she is so close to kidding and has been getting the Replamin Plus which also contains copper, I would just leave her with the 6 grams right now and plan to give copper bolus again in 2 months based on how her new coat looks  She's probably a little perturbed with all these extras and the less stress near kidding time the better!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> Why @NigerianDwarfOwner707 ? Replamin Plus contains MORE selenium than the regular Selenium/Vit E gel. Replamin Plus is way better.
> 
> @healthyishappy - if she has been getting the Replamin Plus weekly then the kids should have no selenium deficiency issues when born. That's perfect.


I did not say which one @healthyishappy should be giving. I was simply clarifying what I thought you meant by selenium.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Why @NigerianDwarfOwner707 ? Replamin Plus contains MORE selenium than the regular Selenium/Vit E gel. Replamin Plus is way better.
> 
> @healthyishappy - if she has been getting the Replamin Plus weekly then the kids should have no selenium deficiency issues when born. That's perfect.


Ok cool. I'm glad to know that.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Since she is so close to kidding and has been getting the Replamin Plus which also contains copper, I would just leave her with the 6 grams right now and plan to give copper bolus again in 2 months based on how her new coat looks  She's probably a little perturbed with all these extras and the less stress near kidding time the better!


Good idea!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I did not say which one she should be giving. I was simply clarifying what I thought you meant by selenium.


I am a he


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

healthyishappy said:


> I am a he


My apologies. Your gender is not specified on the forum.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

That's ok. I better go change that.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Since she is so close to kidding and has been getting the Replamin Plus which also contains copper, I would just leave her with the 6 grams right now and plan to give copper bolus again in 2 months based on how her new coat looks  She's probably a little perturbed with all these extras and the less stress near kidding time the better!


Also it doesn't stress her because I just give it to her in a date or banana and she loves those.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, The "shes" seem to be the default gender when unspecified. We mean no offense.

I agree with @SalteyLove on everything.

There are many ways to supplement selenium, the selenium gel is very common and so is an injection of Bo-Se that you have to get from a vet. An injection of MultiMin (also from a vet) is another one. Replamin is less common than the first 2, but I feel it is better because the other minerals help each other be absorbed.

Neither gel can be bought locally where I am. I have to order them online.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Ok so not wise to supplement more copper now?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

mariarose said:


> Yes, The "shes" seem to be the default gender when unspecified. We mean no offense.
> 
> I agree with @SalteyLove on everything.
> 
> ...


I agree that Replamin is one of the best forms of the minerals. They are all in the right ratios so we don't have to do the balancing ourselves.

As I stated above to @SalteyLove , I was mentioning what a pure and common form of the word "selenium" is, although I do still agree that the Replamin is all @healthyishappy needs.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

mariarose said:


> Yes, The "shes" seem to be the default gender when unspecified. We mean no offense.
> 
> I agree with @SalteyLove on everything.
> 
> ...


I agree that Replamin is one of the best forms of the minerals. They are all in the right ratios so we don't have to do the balancing ourselves.

As I stated above to @SalteyLove , I was mentioning what a pure and common form of the word "selenium" is, although I do still agree that the Replamin is all @healthyishappy needs.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I understood your explanation. I just wanted the OP to know of the many ways to supplement and the fact that we don't know what is meant until specified.

We're good!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

healthyishappy said:


> Ok so not wise to supplement more copper now?


Now see, I would give another bolus (told you I'm fearless in that) because I've learned that the copper in the Replamin isn't as good at filling the liver as the bolus is. But at this point, I think there is no harm done either way you choose, and others here on the site are more cautious than I when it comes to the boluses.

I think that this will work out either way you choose to go, because you are learning to watch the condition of your goats and respond to that, not to a schedule.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

well I'll just give her another 4 grams then. it doesn't stress her out at all it's just a treat!


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## Iluvlilly! (Apr 6, 2019)

Hope your doe gets better!:getwell:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Hope things are OK, just don't overdo the minerals.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> Hope things are OK, just don't overdo the minerals.


Can you elaborate on what you mean by overdo? I'm just curious.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If a goat is already being given loose minerals and natural minerals from say the ground, naturally, then you add supplement, into what they may be already be consuming. 
It can overdose them and causing issues, so be careful and put that into consideration as well.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> If a goat is already being given loose minerals and natural minerals from say the ground, naturally, then you add supplement, into what they may be already be consuming.
> It can overdose them and causing issues, so be careful and put that into consideration as well.


Loose minerals and natural minerals are not always enough. I believe a goat is obviously deficient, supplementation is absolutely necessary. There is always concern for overdose - but I wouldn't be nearly as concerned about a mineral overdose in a deficient goat than a bad mineral deficiency causing problems. Just my opinion. There are some on the forum that are even more bold than I with minerals, @mariarose, @SalteyLove ?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

When supplementing it is important to match the pace of supplementation with the pace of absorption. You can't correct a year's worth of deficiency in a single evening, even though they are that deficient, because they can't absorb it and what they can't absorb will be toxic.

The bolus is extremely slow to be absorbed and very safe. If the OP were wanting to supplement with a different form, I'd be saying to put on the brakes, as Salteylove said to do.

Toth is cautious and careful with dosing (as are most here) and was expressing that concern.

Thank you for pointing out that I may not have been clear about how important the form of the mineral is when making these borderline decisions.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thanks mariarose.

Yeah, we have to remember what works for one breeder, may be over kill to another breeder, depending on the circumstances of each. 
I do take precaution, because you can never undo, the toxins and it cannot be reversed.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Look what I found:












































1 day before her due date.
They are twin bucklings.
she kidded when I was working.
so far they don't seem to have any problems except for one of them has trouble finding the teat. He just sucks on her hair. I'm not sure if he has got any colostrum but if his stomach is still sunken tonight I will bottle feed him some.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Any name suggestions?
All tips are appreciated.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Handsome and hearty looking twins! 

Mitch and Mack


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Thank you. Great name suggestions!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

MY SISTER: are you sure those are from that doe? They don't even look the same.
ME: I only had one pregnant doe.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Forgot to mention that she passed the afterbirth.
Both are doing better at finding the teats now but it takes them a few trys.
Considering they are only maybe 7 hours old that's ok.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Does anyone see any signs of mineral deficiency signs in them?


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## cristina-sorina (May 4, 2018)

Congratulations they're so cute!



healthyishappy said:


> Does anyone see any signs of mineral deficiency signs in them?


They look okay to me. As long as they're standing, trying to walk and finding the teat and suckling well then they are probably okay for now. I did give all my babies selenium and E after they were born. I'm in a deficient area and I didn't want to have any issues.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

healthyishappy said:


> Both are doing better at finding the teats now but it takes them a few trys.
> Considering they are only maybe 7 hours old that's ok.


That's so nervewracking, isn't it? In the future, one ml of fortified B-Complex, orally, can help that.


healthyishappy said:


> Does anyone see any signs of mineral deficiency signs in them?


I'm with @cristina-sorina. You've done a great job of heading off major problems there. 
Were they mine, I'd give them a pea sized dollop of Replamin gel daily for the next few days, and I'd give mom a 5 ml dose, too.

Well done! I just want to reach into the pictures and cuddle and kiss them.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I don't know, better send them here so I can check them out.lol

Congratulations! A very nice "find".


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> That's so nervewracking, isn't it? In the future, one ml of fortified B-Complex, orally, can help that.
> 
> I'm with @cristina-sorina. You've done a great job of heading off major problems there.
> Were they mine, I'd give them a pea sized dollop of Replamin gel daily for the next few days, and I'd give mom a 5 ml dose, too.
> ...


Will do.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Dwarf Dad said:


> I don't know, better send them here so I can check them out.lol
> 
> Congratulations! A very nice "find".


Ha ha very funny


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

They were favoring one teat and this morning I found out why. I went to milk out the unused udder and found it had a plug. A plug like taking out a rusted bolt. It took me like 10 trys and I'm a pretty good milker. hopefully they'll start sucking on that one now that there's no plug. Can't wait to see how much milk she produces. Just with taking out some colostrum it was three cups and there was still a lot left.
Compared to six cups total last year that's a lot better. I'll have to see in about a week how much see produces. I like to leave them with mom for a week and then start separating at night and put them in her pen in the morning after I milk.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

I gave the kids the replamin but its kinda seems to stay in their mouth they don't swallow. Does it just take a few minutes for them to salivate and swallow? 
Suggestions are helpful.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

I'm not sure which b complex to get there's so many.
Here a link to my tsc with searched b complex.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/search/B complex


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

healthyishappy said:


> I gave the kids the replamin but its kinda seems to stay in their mouth they don't swallow. Does it just take a few minutes for them to salivate and swallow?
> Suggestions are helpful.


I have never given to a newborn, I have read that if you put a little bit on your finger, they will suck it off and swallow.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Mine didn't suck it off my finger I had to open their mouth and put it in.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

They don't suck it off. Just put it on the tongue and fuhgeddabowdit.

I use the injectable B-Complex that has a thiamine level of 100. But with newborns, I don't inject, I give it orally.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Dwarf Dad said:


> I don't know, better send them here so I can check them out.lol


Ooh, yes! I can't tell from those pics, I need them here to evaluate in person...


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

So b complex would be better for the kids.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

healthyishappy said:


> So b complex would be better for the kids.


??? Better for the kids than what???

B-Complex should always be at hand for you. In the future, if kids seem slow to "activate" then 1 ml orally helps to wake up the brain and make connections.

Currently, your kids will benefit from a pea sized dollop daily for a few days of the Replamin Gel Plus.

You have discovered they won't suck it off. Because they won't.

So just put it in the mouth and cuddle them and let them go.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Better than replamin. So still give replamin just the b complex would help them "wake up"
Which b complex do you give? Can I have a link?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

As I said, the B-Complex suggestion was for the future. If they still seem slow after all this time, I'd be surprised, but it won't hurt them to have some.

There are SO many brands. Just make sure it is injectable (so not a gel or a capsule) and that the thiamine level is 100 mg. It'll say so right on the label. It'll say either Thiamin, Thiamine, or B-1, because they are all the same thing.

After the goat develops rumen activity you'll need to start injecting it. But newborns can take it orally.
Here is one.








Here's another one








And another








and yet another








I don't know what is available near you, there are just so many!

The Replamin suggestion is for the current skeleton, immune, and ligament development, so yes, give it right now.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Ok thanks I'll keep giving replamin and pick up some b complex.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

mariarose said:


> 1 ml orally helps to wake up the brain and make connections.


Orally of what kind of b complex? Do you mean an oral gel or the actual b complex injection given orally instead of injected?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Do you mean an oral gel or the actual b complex injection given orally instead of injected





mariarose said:


> Just make sure it is injectable (so not a gel or a capsule) and that the thiamine level is 100 mg...
> 
> After the goat develops rumen activity you'll need to start injecting it. But newborns can take it orally.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

@healthyishappy the two bucklings look like they arrived with strong legs, I don't see any of the typical weak back legs or weak pasterns ("dog feet") that can affect newborns with selenium deficiency. How are they doing and growing now?

I think it's been 6 weeks since you gave both does the initial copper bolus dose and began Replamin! Do their coats feels any softer? It definitely looks like the momma goat above is darkening up. What are the names of these two girls? I can't wait to see photos of them with shiny smooth soft dark fur!

What did you decide to name the twin bucklings? And I can't remember, is the darker doe pregnant too?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

1. Yes they have strong legs. They are already running and jumping. They are growing fast and seem to have no problems.
2.yes their coats feel softer. She also is gaining weight. It has been six weeks since first copper bolus but I did give her another two grams and then another 4 grams within a three week period. So 10 grams copper total. Still giving replamin and now my doe (the one this thread is about) just sucks off the end of the tube she loves it so much.
3. No the darker doe is not pregnant. She just turned one. I'm hoping to breed her soon and have fall kids.
4.No idea what I'm going to name the bucklings. I am just like "hey you goat, come here".
My tan doe is named "Skizzy" (not my brain child but I hate to change names.) And the black and white is "Oreo".


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Oreo may not go into heat until Fall, and if she does, you may not find a buck in rut until Fall, because of breeding season issues.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

She is 1/2 Nigerian and I was going to breed her to a Nigerian. I thought they bred year round? If not I'll just have to wait for fall.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Some Nigerians are year round breeders... So it is possible!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

I posted pics for this week in my first post.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

And.... I milked this morning now that the kids are two weeks old. :wow:was I surprised to have gotten 3 quarts. Compared to 1 1/2 quarts that's really good. So I got to save 2 quarts for me and fed the kids with the rest. Dang it is so hard to get babies to suck the bottle after pouring milk all over me and the kids I got one too suck pretty good. The other was not interested. 1 1/2 quarts more is a super improvement. Probably mostly because of the minerals and somewhat because it's her second freshening.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Two days from birth when I weighed them they were fourteen pounds apiece is that a good size? I need to weigh them again to see how much they've gained


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Sounds huge to me. I am used to Nigerian Dwarfs.lol


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Lol!!! They weigh around 20lbs now. That's 6 lbs weight gain total. 1/2 pound a day.
Is that fast enough?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Fast enough for what? I see on here of some who habe Boers that will average about that. Some will up the diet of the meat goats to make them grow fast for market, I think they average out to about .75 lbs per day. That is doing some gaining in a hurry!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

What I meant was. How much is the least they should be gaining a day?
Was 1/2lb enough.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Ok.lol I have seen others say that 1/2 lb and above is good, below, not so good. The thread was about weight gain in Boers.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Dwarf Dad said:


> Ok.lol I have seen others say that 1/2 lb and above is good, below, not so good. The thread was about weight gain in Boers.


Guess that makes sense because they are a meat breed people really want FAST weight gain.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Horrible pic but this is from before copper boluse the one below this is today.
This is my nigerian/alpine.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Its almost been three months. My alpine doe doesn't seem to be changing much but I think it could be two factors: 1. She is most likely cobalt deficient, 2. She has never gotten minerals for the 3 years of her life until three months ago so i'm assuming it will take longer.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Anyone have any ideas on why my alpine is not looking better?
Are my hypothesis right?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

healthyishappy said:


> Anyone have any ideas on why my alpine is not looking better?
> Are my hypothesis right?


She could need another bolus. Was she given the same amount of COWP as the smaller goats?
1. Yes
2. Yes
When my goats get a lot of alfalfa pelletsthey need more copper. I limit them to 1/4 cup per day. Pet Nigis.


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## PetLover (Apr 26, 2019)

healthyishappy said:


> Horrible pic but this is from before copper boluse the one below this is today.
> This is my nigerian/alpine.
> 
> 
> ...


Beatiful pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The goats look very nice!!!!!!!!!!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Going back to the photos on page 1, I do see some improvement in your alpine's coat. But you are right, she still has some ways to go. 

I think you have also begun Replamin Plus weekly - is that correct? I may have mixed up the threads. But either way, since it has been 3 months, I would move ahead with another dose of copper bolus for all.


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## PetLover (Apr 26, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Going back to the photos on page 1, I do see some improvement in your alpine's coat. But you are right, she still has some ways to go.
> 
> I think you have also begun Replamin Plus weekly - is that correct? I may have mixed up the threads. But either way, since it has been 3 months, I would move ahead with another dose of copper bolus for all.


Good Idea!!!!!!!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I also would give everyone another copper bolus. I'd give your larger Alpine 2 boluses (were she mine).
I think you are doing an amazing job. Hang in there.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Dwarf Dad said:


> She could need another bolus. Was she given the same amount of COWP as the smaller goats?
> 1. Yes
> 2. Yes
> When my goats get a lot of alfalfa pelletsthey need more copper. I limit them to 1/4 cup per day. Pet Nigis.


She got 10 grams over the course of a month.
Should I give her more?
The last four I gave her would be two months ago.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I also would give everyone another copper bolus. I'd give your larger Alpine 2 boluses (were she mine).
> I think you are doing an amazing job. Hang in there.


8 grams more?
That seems a lot but i'll do it.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Going back to the photos on page 1, I do see some improvement in your alpine's coat. But you are right, she still has some ways to go.
> 
> I think you have also begun Replamin Plus weekly - is that correct? I may have mixed up the threads. But either way, since it has been 3 months, I would move ahead with another dose of copper bolus for all.


Yep still doing replamin.
I don't give copper to the kids do I?
Only give the alpine/nigerian half what I give the alpine right?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Sure, kids can have copper bolus. I usually wait until they are like 2-4 months old. 

Since I know we have copper deficiency in my herd, I'm a bit more generous than some others when it comes to bolus dosing. A lot of people cite a 1gram per 22lbs dosage but I have no idea where they came up with that. Basically, on my farm, if they are under 100lbs they get 4 grams, over 100lbs they get 8 grams. And my largest beasts or super deficient goats occasionally get 12 grams. I have to copper bolus at least 3 times a year to keep them in good standing even though they have loose minerals and get MultiMin90 injections.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Sure, kids can have copper bolus. I usually wait until they are like 2-4 months old.
> 
> Since I know we have copper deficiency in my herd, I'm a bit more generous than some others when it comes to bolus dosing. A lot of people cite a 1gram per 22lbs dosage but I have no idea where they came up with that. Basically, on my farm, if they are under 100lbs they get 4 grams, over 100lbs they get 8 grams. And my largest beasts or super deficient goats occasionally get 12 grams. I have to copper bolus at least 3 times a year to keep them in good standing even though they have loose minerals and get MultiMin90 injections.


Understand.
So even once she back to health I will have to be consistent or she will go back to how she is.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

healthyishappy said:


> Understand.
> So even once she back to health I will have to be consistent or she will go back to how she is.


Yes, in the 4 languages I know...
YESYESYESYES!
OUIOUIOUI!
SISISI!
JAJAJA!

I do not know how to shout YES in Swedish, but if @Trollmor would tell me, I'd shout it in Swedish, too.

You will have to supplement their whole lives, because what North America supplies naturally is not what these animals naturally need.

The copper oxide rods found in the copper boluses is a very safe form of copper. The goats can not get enough copper if we won't give it to them. 
Your Alpine girl needs more copper and you've done a GREAT job giving it to her safely. You haven't done anything wrong. You just aren't done yet, that's all.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> You will have to supplement their whole lives, because what North America supplies naturally is not what these animals naturally need.
> 
> The copper oxide rods found in the copper boluses is a very safe form of copper. The goats can not get enough copper if we won't give it to them.
> Your Alpine girl needs more copper and you've done a GREAT job giving it to her safely. You haven't done anything wrong. You just aren't done yet, that's all.


Thanks!!!
I'll bolus them today.
I'm planning to give my nigerian/alpine 4 grams and my alpine 8 grams.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> Sure, kids can have copper bolus. I usually wait until they are like 2-4 months old.
> 
> Since I know we have copper deficiency in my herd, I'm a bit more generous than some others when it comes to bolus dosing. A lot of people cite a 1gram per 22lbs dosage but I have no idea where they came up with that. Basically, on my farm, if they are under 100lbs they get 4 grams, over 100lbs they get 8 grams. And my largest beasts or super deficient goats occasionally get 12 grams. I have to copper bolus at least 3 times a year to keep them in good standing even though they have loose minerals and get MultiMin90 injections.


I've got 50-60 lb ND's. Gave a 4g bolus to each. I was told to repeat in a month. Is this too much?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I've got 50-60 lb ND's. Gave a 4g bolus to each. I was told to repeat in a month. Is this too much?


I think you're supposed to wait about 3 months at least.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Sorry my bad I was rushing. This is not just a maintenance thing. It’s pretty severe. Mine were severely deficient from well water issues (filtered now). Hair curly and coarse, fishtails, possibly even copper deficiency anemic. A fairly severe issue.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Sorry my bad I was rushing. This is not just a maintenance thing. It's pretty severe. Mine were severely deficient from well water issues (filtered now). Hair curly and coarse, fishtails, possibly even copper deficiency anemic. A fairly severe issue.


Mine are VERY severe and people on here told me to at least wait 3 months.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

As per Maria Rose’s advice, from seeing photos of them, I was told to give 8 grams over the course of a week and repeat again in a month. I gave 4 grams, and still feel I should repeat again in a month. So I’m just looking for a few others’ input and maybe help a few on this thread along the way. Yes


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> As per Maria Rose's advice, from seeing photos of them, I was told to give 8 grams over the course of a week and repeat again in a month. I gave 4 grams, and still feel I should repeat again in a month. So I'm just looking for a few others' input and maybe help a few on this thread along the way. Yes


Well if mariarose told you that then forget what I said.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

In my defense, I want to point out that I gave that advice after a REALLY long engagement over minerals for those particular goats, and only after seeing pictures of the animals in question. And that the one month later was conditional to what was observed at that future time.

The advice wasn't offhand or casually given.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Well I gave them the copper.
I decided the best way for me is to put the boluses in pitted dates.
They love them!!


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## TCOLVIN (Sep 22, 2014)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Sorry my bad I was rushing. This is not just a maintenance thing. It's pretty severe. Mine were severely deficient from well water issues (filtered now). Hair curly and coarse, fishtails, possibly even copper deficiency anemic. A fairly severe issue.


How do you test we'll water. Our well is a deep lime rock well. About 800 feet.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Testing your well water won't buy you much unless you are planning to install a filtration system. Knowing the minerals in your water won't change your approach to supplementing your goats. If they show signs of deficiency, give them the supplements, and plan to do so on a permanent basis. 

If you are interested in installing a filtration system, contact a local well driller and they will likely be able to recommend someone who will take care of all the sampling and sending to a lab and designing the appropriate treatment!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

TCOLVIN said:


> How do you test we'll water. Our well is a deep lime rock well. About 800 feet.


County agent will know.


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## PetLover (Apr 26, 2019)

healthyishappy said:


> Well I gave them the copper.
> I decided the best way for me is to put the boluses in pitted dates.
> They love them!!


Good idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

It's been almost a month since the last bolus should I give her another one?
I'm thinking I should probably wait two months because I did give her 8 grams.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes wait, you won't see results for several months. I wait three months before deciding that they need more


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

healthyishappy said:


> It's been almost a month since the last bolus should I give her another one?


Have you seen any signs of improvement in this past month, any at all? If yes, I would wait for a while, because what I gave was enough to start working and I want to wait until I see that it has reached the limit of help.

If no signs whatsoever, I would not wait past a month, because this tells me the deficiency was worse than I thought and more is needed to get past the deficit, or that my antagonists were worse than I thought and I need more to get past the antagonist wall...

There is no real timeline for you here. If I went without copper supplementation when I see I need it for 3 or 4 whole months, it would be almost impossible for me to climb on top again. I know this, because I've actually done it (or rather, failed to do it). But other people don't have the same challenges I do, and waiting 3 months does work for them.

This really is a situation where you have to evaluate the situation with your own eyes. But more than that, it is a situation where you have to bring your own experience with these particular goats into it.

Your experience is still young, and you haven't had these particular goats for very long (although it SEEMS long, I know)

You are going to make missteps and underdose and overdose. You just are. She'll forgive you, I promise.

Oh, Lord have pity on our first goats!!!!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Oh, Lord have pity on our first goats!!!!


Lol!!!! I totally agree!!!


mariarose said:


> Have you seen any signs of improvement in this past month, any at all? If yes, I would wait for a while, because what I gave was enough to start working and I want to wait until I see that it has reached the limit of help.


Yes a bit,
So just give her more when I notice shes not improving again?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

healthyishappy said:


> So just give her more when I notice shes not improving again?


That's sort of what I'm saying, but not precisely. I'm asking you to do more that just "notice" her improvement has stalled. I'm asking for a continual, on-purpose assessment, that not only is she not improving any longer, but that further improvement is still needed.

It's much less casual than "notice", but yes, she needs you to at least "notice" her progress or lack of progress. "Notice" is the very least requirement here.

I hope you get what I'm saying. Once you've seen a problem, you need to actively look for a resolution, not just notice if it has happened or not.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Its been almost two months, should I give her another 8? Or at least 4?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

healthyishappy said:


> Its been almost two months, should I give her another 8? Or at least 4?


How long ago did she start going backwards?


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> How long ago did she start going backwards?


She hasn't, but shes stagnant again.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

4 grams then. And 4 more when she stops again. ASAP.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I honestly wait for 4 months, by that time, the hair, if they have fishtail you will start to see hair growth. So I know it it working.

If they are still showing signs, I give another copper bolus then. 

They can be overdosed if you give every month in some situations, so be careful.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> 4 grams then. And 4 more when she stops again. ASAP.


Will do. That's kinda what I was thinking.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> I honestly wait for 4 months, by that time, the hair, if they have fishtail you will start to see hair growth. So I know it it working.
> 
> If they are still showing signs, I give another copper bolus then.
> 
> They can be overdosed if you give every month in some situations, so be careful.


I know mine is still deficient so I'm not too worried and I know 4 months would be way too long.


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

So i'm finally getting some more pics.
As you can see her hair is really starting to lie down and SHINE!
First pic is 1st wether
Second pic is 2nd wether
3-6 is doe- Skizzy
Last is mini alpine doe-oreo


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Skizzy is so much improved! But I really did expect her to end up a different color!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Skizzy is so much improved! But I really did expect her to end up a different color!


Thank you! I hope she'll keep improving. Shes almost there! 
I thought she would turn a different color too!


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## healthyishappy (Mar 6, 2019)

Here is a up-close of before copper boluse and replamin and 5 months after.
So she did darken a little bit.


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