# Need help with CMPK



## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

I have a goat with ketosis. I have been treating with CMPK gel in the tube. I can't find any in the stores near me. They do have this liquid. Can I use it? What dose and how often? Thanks.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm not sure. I haven't had to use it.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Yes, you can use the liquid CMPK. I was giving 1 ounce 1x a day to a doe who was boarderline sick. There are some dose suggestions on this hypocalcemia article. http://kinne.net/hypocal2.htm

Sorry about your doe.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Ok. Thanks. Good article. She is coming out of it. Her urine is just a light purple shade on the color chart now. Sunday it was medium to dark purple. She is due Monday.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

There's a slightly different version of this excellent article by Sue Rieth reprinted in the book "Goat Health Care" edited by Cheryl K Smith. I have a FF who was exhibiting possible early signs of hypocalcemia a few days ago, but no CMPK on hand. Per Reith and also notes on hypocalecmia in "Natural Goat Care" by Pat Coleby, I chose to give her extra kelp meal. It quickly turned her around. My conclusion was that at least in the early phases, hypocalcemia might be treated alternatively by feeding or drenching kelp. Good to know when we run to the medicine cabinet at midnight and find the CMPK all but out!

Glad you're girl's turned around and best wishes on her kidding!


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Is your doe ketotic or hypocalcemic?

Ketosis is from lack of adequate energy so the body metabolises fat and produces the toxins that cause your symptoms.

Hypocalcemia is from inadequate calcium.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Mine is ketotic.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

The article was referenced for dosing purposes. Although it's a great source for hypocalcemia.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I was just asking because cmpk is for hypocalcemia


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I would make a trip back to tractor supply and get dextrose as well. CMPK won't hurt her if you want to give her some anyway. Sometimes when they go ketotic, they get hypocalcemia as well. 

So what I would do is get a couple bottles of dextrose, a few tubes of probios and some electrolyte mix. 

Drench her with a couple ounces of the dextrose, follow up later with probios, give some CMPK at any time. I prefer to use the gel rather than the drench solution.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks everyone. She kidded twin does tonight. 10.4 pounds and 9.4 pounds. She immediately jumped up and started eating hay, then her grain. I have been treating her for 6 days. This is what I did per advice from a good goat lady. 
Twice a day she got 60 cc Ensure , 20 cc of CMPK, and probios.
At night I also gave 2 cc IM B12 injections, and Vitacharge appetite enhancer.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad she kidded just fine and is ok.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I would make a trip back to tractor supply and get dextrose as well. CMPK won't hurt her if you want to give her some anyway. Sometimes when they go ketotic, they get hypocalcemia as well.
> 
> So what I would do is get a couple bottles of dextrose, a few tubes of probios and some electrolyte mix.
> 
> Drench her with a couple ounces of the dextrose, follow up later with probios, give some CMPK at any time. I prefer to use the gel rather than the drench solution.


If you read the label, that CMPK solution has a LOT of dextrose already in it.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Awesome, congrats!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Congrats, this thread is very helpful.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

nicolemackenzie said:


> Is your doe ketotic or hypocalcemic?
> Ketosis is from lack of adequate energy so the body metabolises fat and produces the toxins that cause your symptoms.
> Hypocalcemia is from inadequate calcium.


I just wanted to step back into this thread for a moment to make a comment.
A goat herder should not get caught up in the trap of whether or not their close-to-kidding-doe that is acting sluggish and is losing appetite has hypocalcemia or ketosis. Similar to the listeria and goat polio conundrum, you should be treating for both the minute you suspect either. I think the Sue Reith article brilliantly applies to all late term does that are going down hill at the worst time, the end of their pregnancy. The Reith article goes further in that it helps identify management techniques to prevent future occurrences, but you will notice Sue is treating with Nutridrench or propolyene glycol AND CMPK. If a late term doe is not eating, she *will* become ketotic, which will make it even less likely she is going to start eating because they feel like crap. The ketosis is more a deadly symptom that is caused by the doe not being able to keep up with the demands of the unborn kids inside of her, which can be caused by several things, including not enough calcium. The other common causes are triplets and quads and the doe being run off the feed trough without you knowing about it.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

hypocalcemia or ketosis is much different than listeria and goat polio, when it comes to symptoms. There is no confusion.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

They have found a link between hypocalcemia (milk fever) and ketosis/pregnancy toxemia. Treating with CMPK or whatever you use for milk fever was found to help in ketosis/preg toxemia in pregnant does.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

lottsagoats1 said:


> They have found a link between hypocalcemia (milk fever) and ketosis/pregnancy toxemia. Treating with CMPK or whatever you use for milk fever was found to help in ketosis/preg toxemia in pregnant does.


CMPK has glucose in it as stated above, so that helps the ketotic doe not the calcium. They are very different problems.

They can and do often occur together. But it's not a cause and effect relationship. It's caused from similar issues. The underlying cause should be treated first. I personally don't like to treat for a problem that isn't there yet if I can treat the initial cause of illness and avoid further issues that way.

I'm glad this doe kidded well and recovered from ketosis and her possible hypocalcemia.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Tenacross said:


> The ketosis is more a deadly symptom that is caused by the doe not being able to keep up with the demands of the unborn kids inside of her, which can be caused by several things, including not enough calcium. The other common causes are triplets and quads and the doe being run off the feed trough without you knowing about it.


Ketosis is not caused by inadequate calcium.
Ketosis is a calorie issue.

The ketotic doe may not eat and thus end up hypocalcemic from inadequate calcium intake.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> hypocalcemia or ketosis is much different than listeria and goat polio, when it comes to symptoms. There is no confusion.


I believe what Tim is saying is that hypocalcemia and ketosis symptoms are as similar in symptoms to *each other* as are listeriosis and Polio. Not that they are similar symptoms in all four.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> hypocalcemia or ketosis is much different than listeria and goat polio, when it comes to symptoms. There is no confusion.


Listeria and goat polio are treated the same way. If you suspect one, you should treat for both. I learned that on this forum, among other places. Whether you think you are dealing with hypocalcemia or ketosis, you should be treating for both, just like listeria and polio.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

lottsagoats1 said:


> They have found a link between hypocalcemia (milk fever) and ketosis/pregnancy toxemia. Treating with CMPK or whatever you use for milk fever was found to help in ketosis/preg toxemia in pregnant does.


Thank you.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

nicolemackenzie said:


> Ketosis is not caused by inadequate calcium.
> Ketosis is a calorie issue. The ketotic doe may not eat and thus end up hypocalcemic from inadequate calcium intake.


Did you read the Sue Reith article? You should.

What makes you think it's not the other way around? A doe lacking in calcium will struggle late in their pregnancy, go off feed and become ketotic because, as you said, not enough calories. I'm not saying it can't go one way or the other, but a doe that is not eating and going down hill late in their pregnancy is in serious trouble. And I'm saying you should treat with both CMPK, preferably in an oral solution like the OPs, or a similar solution. (MFO). AND Nutridrench or propylene glycol, like Sue Reith and many others recommend.

I believe I've caught several of my does early in the process and cured them before they got bad by just individually feeding them 1.5 - 2 lbs of good goat feed twice a day.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Tenacross said:


> Listeria and goat polio are treated the same way. If you suspect one, you should treat for both. I learned that on this forum, among other places. Whether you think you are dealing with hypocalcemia or ketosis, you should be treating for both, just like listeria and polio.


 I now understand what you meant, took it differently at first sorry.

Yes, if one feels they are unsure, you should treat for both.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Yep, I always treat for both when they start laying down more, eating less and seem to be walking tenderly. Good practice to treat for both. If they are ketotic, they probably need more calcium anyway and vice a versa.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

I agree. With a doe that was down for several weeks prior to kidding and still wouldn't get up after kidding for around 4 days, I started her on calcium. Within 12 hours she was standing and eating on her own. The vet only had us give propylene glycol, keto gel, and try to find foods she would eat. I didn't know about CMPK at the time, and feel her toxemia became hypocalcemia.
If I had been giving a calcium supplement or CMPK, I feel she would have recovered much faster.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Tenacross said:


> Did you read the Sue Reith article? You should.
> 
> What makes you think it's not the other way around? A doe lacking in calcium will struggle late in their pregnancy, go off feed and become ketotic because, as you said, not enough calories. I'm not saying it can't go one way or the other, but a doe that is not eating and going down hill late in their pregnancy is in serious trouble. And I'm saying you should treat with both CMPK, preferably in an oral solution like the OPs, or a similar solution. (MFO). AND Nutridrench or propylene glycol, like Sue Reith and many others recommend.
> 
> I believe I've caught several of my does early in the process and cured them before they got bad by just individually feeding them 1.5 - 2 lbs of good goat feed twice a day.


I wasn't disagreeing with anything other than the statement that low calcium causes ketosis. That is simply not true.

I gave an example of how they were related not the only way they could lead to one another.

We're not really disagreeing on anything else...


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