# Thinking about going mini



## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

I've been thinking about going mini's I love the lamanchas and still want to keep my lamanchas, so I could have the best of both worlds with mini lamanchas. I do have a few questions though. 

First off I'll be starting from scratch. Lamancha doe's and I'm planning to pick up a nigerian buck. Since I'm starting from scratch I want to make sure I have my goals in order so I can create the herd I want. Many nigerian breeders I see are starting to breed for polled. do you not get hermafrodites? If herms are not a problem then what are the odds of getting polled vs honed? Say I was to find a polled nigi buck breed him to my lamancha girls and what are the odds of me getting any polled? If I did get polled and bred them to polled would I get polled or horns? Any info on that would be great. 

Also can you show mini's? I've heard the mini standards milk much better than the nigerians is this true? Any and all help with my new project is appreciated. Thanks

Oh I don't have the buck yet, but will be keeping my eyes out for one. For a Mini lamancha program what traits should I be looking for in a nigerian buck? Small is really the only one I can think of since I want to get the size down from standard (it does help that I have a couple small lamanchas that will be perfect for this adventure) I'm thinking about going polled so I won't have to disbud and blue eyes and moon spots are what I would like to have in them too. I know I have a lot of questions, but you guys are so great and I value everyones opinions. :idea:


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

"As I posted earlier...Binkey is polled and never gave me anything BUT horned kids so I think genetically she's a "Pp" (Sire polled, dam horned)

Chief was mistakenly disbudded as a kid....he's been bred to nothing but horned does and produced polled kids, so I think that he too is genetically a "Pp"(Dam polled,Sire horned)

PP: This animal is polled, and does not carry the gene for horns. 
Pp: This animal would be polled, and carry a recessive gene for horns. 
pp: This animal has horns. An animal must carry two genes for horns to have horns. 

Here are the various breeding scenarios with the resulting offspring:

Horned (pp) X Horned (pp) = 100% horned (pp) offspring.
Polled (Pp) X Horned (pp) = 50% polled (Pp), 50% horned (pp) offspring.
Polled (Pp) X Polled (Pp) = 25% polled (PP), 50% polled (Pp), 25% horned (pp) offspring
Homozygous polled (PP) X Horned (pp) = All polled (Pp) offspring.
Homozygous polled (PP) X Homozygous Polled (PP) = All homozygous polled (PP) offspring."

Ok just found this info from a old post. I think it was one of liz's posts. Just wanted to add it here so I could refrence it and anyone else interested in this topic could see it.


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

When breeding Polled to Polled and Polled to horned...it really is still the luck of the draw. I've had quadruplets from Polled X Polled and got all Polled kids. I've also had does have triplets out of Polled X Polled and all were horned. Sometimes it's 50/50...sometimes it's not. The only guarantee that you have when using Polled stock is that you have a CHANCE at having Polled kids. LOL The rest is all up to whichever sperm happens to unite with each egg.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I have no experience with polled but am looking to get some Nigis that are polled for my herd. 
I have heard the breeding polled to polled you have a high chance of hermaferdites. Not sure if this is true but have heard it many times.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

The rare time the chance of hermaphrodytism occurs is if you breed 2 goats that are as referenced in the above info...

*PP* to *PP*

In that " PP" combo, the polled trait is strongest and can be bred together with no issues IF the sire or dam of the "PP" goat was a "pp" and a "pp"...meaning that either grandparent was horned or carried the gene for horns.

It is confusing but the chance of having issues is usually the result of not knowing wether or not the polled goat is a "PP" or a "pp".


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

This isn't really in reply to anyone...just to make the chart more understandable. When it says 50/50 chance it means each individual kid has a 50/50 chance of being polled. So out of quads instead of two kids likely being polled, it could be that all four kids are horned just because each individual kid gets a 50/50 chance. Think of each kid in a litter having to roll a dice for themself.

So just wanted to make that clear...it's not that the litter will have a 50/50 shot, it's that each kid will have a 50/50 shot.  Hope that makes sense!


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

okay so some polled goats is better than none so I can live with that, but I always dreamed of creating a all polled herd.


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

In an all polled herd you'd probably have a much higher chance of getting a hermaphrodite. 
But as was said, it would be unlikely to get one. Just a higher chance.


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

I'm looking into a nigi buck right now. He's a yearling. He's polled and blue eyed AGS registered I think they said. They want $300 for him, just waiting for pics so I can post here to get your opinions. I'm going to need the best buck I can get, so I want your critiques if I can get some pics sent my way. Oh they also said he was CAE negative and although he himself does not have moon spots his brother did. Sounds like this could be an awesome buck for my mini lamancha herd. just as long as he doesn't have any major faults with him. Now if I get pics and it turns out good, I still need to get a few of my lamanchas sold to pay for him.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

He himself needs to have moonspots to pass on moonspots. There are times when a buck doesn't seem to express moonspots but they could be covered in white or so small they are just a couple hairs. From my understanding moonspots are dominant and is a gene that can't be carried


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Good to know Stacey, thanks.

Still waiting on pic of him, the guy just gave a number to call. I wanted to see pics before going any further so I just emailed him back. No answer yet, so might have to call and have him email me the pics. I kinda figured I'm going to have to have two bucks anyway for genetic diversity so if I get some pics and you guys think he's worth the money I may go ahead and get him and look for a seperate moonspotted buck. I could then breed half of my lamancha does to one buck and the other half with the other buck. Then I could mix and match the F1 offspring and have F2's the following year. I'm not quite sure how to procced with F3-F6 generations yet. Could I get to F6 with the two starter bucks without bringing in a new line?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

whenever you breed back to a nigerian buck kids are always F1


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I could be wrong in the above but this is what I know:

kids are always only one generation higher then the lowest generation parent.

F1 X F2 = F2 kids

F2X F2 - F3 kids

F1 XF3 = F2 kids


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

But do you think they would be too related if I crossed all the F1's out of one buck to the F1's out of the other buck and then followed each gen by breeding to like gen? example F2's to the F2's then the resulting F3's to F3's. Confusing I know.... I just worried that my heard would be too related since I only had the origional two bucks that all the mini's came from. Around here you can find a select few mini nubian breeders and Mini alpine breeders, but not lamanchas so I would'nt be able to find an unrelated F2 or F3 buck to bring in. The few people I have seen with mini manchas are not raising registered mini's just grades.

Thanks


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

yes they would eventually become very inbred 

You may have to ship in a buck at some point in the future


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks stacey. Something I'll have to look into when the time comes for new blood.


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Got pics of this buck. She said she didn't have current pics of him, just this last years pic and then pic of his mom and dad. No udder photo of the dam though. So what do you think? is he worth $300? He is polled and blue eyed AGS registered. 

Input much appreciated.


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Here he is, not the best pic but she said she didn't have any current pics.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

looks like he might toe out in the front -- that would be a deal breaker for me.


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

So you wouldn't buy?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I would want better pictures those hide his front hooves to much to determine if he is actually toeing straight ahead or toeing out. 


I would want side, rear, front pictures. And nothing obscuring anything


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

The biggest thing I don't like about him is that he's marked like a caramel pygmy goat. Yes, nigerians can be any color or marking, but for a buck I really wouldn't want one that has pygmy goat markings...but that's just me. Also, you'll want a buck with a good udder so you'll need photos of his dam's udder. Also, what is his pedigree? His dam and sire both look like nice animals.


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Here is his pedigree. I'm gonna work on seeing if she can get me some better pics, but don't want her to go through all the trouble if he doesn't sound like a good buck. I really appreciate all of your opinions.

+-- Dean's Funny Farm Calico 
- Dean's Funny Farm Sea Jay 
| +-- Little Rascals Bluebell 
+-- Dean's Funny Farm Zeus 
| | +-- OWL'S ROOST RINGO 
| - Dean's Funny Farm Daisy Mae 
| +-- CHISHOLM TRAIL APRIL 
+--- Duck's Mini Herd Hercules 
| | +-- FLAT ROCKS MAXAMILLION 
| | - DREAM ACRES GERONIMO LIBR 
| | | +-- Dream Acres SE Fire Cloud 
| +-- LIBR Solar Wind 
| | +-- TUPENCE MOONRAKER 
| - VELVET ACRES MOONSHINE HIGH 
| +-- CACTUS RIDGE MOONBEAM 
*Holloways Blue Pindar* 
| +-- Woodhaven Farms Conquistador 
| - Whirlygig Farms Smart Alec 
| | +-- Woodhaven Farms Alexandragrace 
| +-- Wee Wittle Ahanu VG 
| | | +-- Little Rascals Mufasa 
| | - Piddlin Acres Calico Moon 
| | +--MCH Piddlin Acres Neon Moon 
+--- Icthus WWA Sestreire 
| +-- Karim's Starbuck 
| - Starbucks Sunnie 
| | +-- Willow Creek Shadow Of Doubt 
+-- Starbucks Hot Cocoa 
| +-- Willow Creek Walk-Away Joe 
- Starbucks Toffee 
+-- Starbucks Carmelo


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I dont recognize a name on there BUT that doesnt mean they are bad goats - so sorry I cant help.


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

http://www.duckminifarm.com/Zeuspage.html

found this guy, his grand sire on the bucks side. I'm still googleing them LOL.


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

What do you think about this guy? He's 5 years old.

Sire: Tyny Tim (SS: Tyny White Tornado - SD: Tyny Bit-A-Sugar)



Dam: Pecan Hollow L Ella (DS: Little Rascals Lestat - DD: Pecan Hollow PH Peaches & Cream

I'm trying to contact the lady about him as they are selling out. So don't know for sure that he's in my price range, but until I find out otherwise this is option #2

Polled and blue eyed (plus I know he's thrown polled and blue eyes on kids for her in the past)


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

On option #1 it's probably not a good sign that the breeder doesn't own the sire or dam andy longer right? The lady gave me the website from the breeder she bought him from and couldn't find either sire or dam on there. She said she'd try to ge me some more pics in a day or two. IDK about it though.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

personally I wouldnt buy the first buck you posted. I see nothing that really attracts me to him and his sire toes out in the front so more then likely he does as I mentioned him to look to be.

The second buck is more promising but I would like to see more pictures


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

I would buy the second buck because he looks stronger in his legs, and he has lots of depth and more of a nigerian look.
But still would need more pictures of him before I bought him


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Second buck is a no go. He's already sold.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I have a beautiful buck for sale -- to bad you are in missouri


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Don't tease me. I'de snatch him up if I were closer.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well if transport could be arranged or you shipped him I would make his price VERY reasonable. Im all about helping people  

know anyone going to the ADGA Nationals?


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Nope no one I know is making the trip to Nationals. Shipping would probably be costly wouldn't it?


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Not getting either bucks now. The first one they did not want to budge on the price or meet me halfway to save gas. She said he had a bad cough that she's never been able to get rid of. She says they wormed for lungworms,and gave antibiotics and could never clear it up. She also said that he did toe out in the front like stacey said. Even with all that she would not take any less or meet me. Oh well wasn't meant to be and like stacey said I have untill fall to find one.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

wow with all that and no budge on the price? good choice to pass on him 

the right buck is out there - dont get discouraged


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

I know. 
I did however find a lady south of us that used to raise Mini Lamanchas (registered) and has a buck for sale that is all she has left after getting out of them last year. I'm trying to contact her to ask about him, he's an F1 and she was only asking 100.00 for him if she still has him. The ad was a month old so I don't know if he's still available yet.

Not blue eyed or polled, but for the price he would be a good buck to bring in for added genetics and he's already an F1 mini


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## Coyote Night Acres (Dec 27, 2010)

Well mini mancha buck is sold.  Back to looking for a polled blue eyed nigerian buck. This is harder than I thought it would be. On our local craigslist there are lots of nigis for sale, just none polled and blue eyed.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I think you made a good choice passing on that first buck. Have you looked through these breeders...
http://goatfinder.com/dwarf_goat_directory.htm#MO


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