# Young doe with nasty diarrhea



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Young doe with nasty diarrhea UPDATE! Not Cocci!*

My kids 4mo % boer doe has really bad diarrhea today, and is feeling horrible.

She's not been looking 100% imo the past week, seemed to look a bit thinner, and really sunken in. Was acting fine, playing, etc. even late yesterday, she was bouncing and running around.

2 things...

Sat or Sun I wormed her with 2 1/2-3x a horses dose of Quest Plus. Her eyelids were so/so, and I figured she was ready to be wormed - it's that time of year.

Fri we went to get grain, feed store was out. He gave us lamb feed, said it shouldn't upset them at all since it's the same exact thing minus the copper & medication. Mixed that with their feed I had left. They don't particularly care for it, but eat it anyway. They get copper from a horse supplement that we feed.

So I am not sure if it could be a stomach bug, worming issue, or feed issue 

Her temperature is fine. I had my son listen to her rumen and he said he heard gurgling/growling.

We gave her 20cc of Pepto Bismol <she spilled a little>, waited and drenched her with a scoop of goat probios. Waited a few more minutes, and gave her 2cc of B-12.

Any ideas what else I should do? Or just keep dosing her with this? How often should I give the pepto, and how much? She's about 75-80lbs. We've never had one with diarrhea this bad before.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Sounds like a feed issue. It happens every time I feed something medicated.
I'd give some penicillin, and kaopectate. About 1.5 CC of the penicillin and 6 oz of kaopectate. That should clear it up. I would stop feeding her the lamb grain, it will only escalate the problem.
You can give the pepto every 4-6 hours.

I don't think it would be the wormer, as I once forgot to lock the tube on a zimectrin gold and was worming a little 40 lb doe and the entire tube was given to her! She was fine, suffered no side effects.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

If it doesn't clear up with the first dose of kaopectate give another dose 4 hours later.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks, all I have on hand is pepto, I don't have any kaopectate. I am assuming this is OTC in a pharmacy? I've never bought it before, only seen it mentioned on here from time to time.

I do have penG.

Someone suggested it could be cocci? But I'm wondering if maybe she had a slight worm issue, and after worming and then the feed it made her sick?

However, I noticed she sounds a tiny bit stuffy in her nose. Her nose isn't running/no discharge. 

She's drinking water. 

If it's not one thing it's another. We've been watching her brother since he got a chain stuck in the side of his mouth last week! I think it's going to abscess.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes Pepto Bismol is OTC. Mine prefer the cherry flavor.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If it has been a week and no change, I recommend a fecal for worms and cocci. 

Horse paste wormers, aren't working in some area's, so be aware. I use Ivomec or Valbezen( not for preggo's) depending on what worm, it may be. 1cc per 33lbs orally, then again 10 days later.

Scouring goats should not get any grain, until they clear up , then gradually give it to them again.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Sorry Pam, I meant to say she didn't look great the past week, like something was up, even though she was acting fine.
The scouring must have started sometime after midnight into this morning, because when I fed her bottle baby buddy at midnight, they were fine. Although I noticed she didn't eat her grain.

I took the grain out, and she has clover grass hay. Right now she's not interested in any of that stuff. 
Bless her heart, she's been standing on a cinder block and putting her head against the stall wall. Occasionally she lays down. She acts like she doesn't want to get 'dirty' even though the stall is remotely clean. 

So far, Quest plus has been reasonably effective for us. BUT, I am worried this could be round worm which we need Ivermectin to treat. I know Moxidectin in high doses is affective against the other worm we deal with.
This seems to be the time of year that round worm start peaking. 
I wish her poo wasn't so watery where I could collect a decent sample, that away I could check it. 

As a precaution we are going to start her on SMZ's since we did notice she wasn't 100% right before the feed change. 

BTW, her eyelids have been so/so, she's never had pale eyelids. Even today her eyelids seem okay, just not as dark as I am used to seeing, but not pale enough that I thought she had a major issue


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

It's most likely the change of feed. The worming is just coincidental. You are already doing the right thing, including covering your bases with the sulfa meds. Good job.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks, I appreciate it! 

Her temp is up to 103.8, but it's 84 out, and the sun is starting to make it warmer in the barn. I opened it up more, there is a nice breeze, so hopefully that will help. Praying it's not because of infection.

Her diarrhea is all mucus now. I'm guessing that's from the water since she hasn't eaten anything.

I figure I'll give her more Pepto & probios after we give the SMZ's a chance to get into her system.

Poor sweetie.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

You can get kaopectate at any store, kmart, walmart, grocery stores in the vitamin and cold isle. It is over the counter, its like $5 a bottle.
You can also buy it by the gallon from jeffers, called Kaolin Pectin.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Also if you have any corid or something like that give that to her. The dose on my bottle is to mix :
1-1/2 oz corid (2 Tbsp's is 1 oz)
16 oz water. (1 pint)
Mix that for a drench. The rate is 5cc or mL per 25lbs body weight. once a day for 5 days.
But for now I would do 5cc (125lbs) dose for your 80lb doe, and give that to her once, then the next day do 4 cc for the rest of the treatment.


When my kids or adult goats go down with scours I give them
8oz kaopectate, for adults, Or 6 oz for kids
Corid
Penicillin
and worm them after they get better.


If kaopectate doesnt work, try raw blackberry root tea. Nothing but blackberry roots boiled in water.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Wow that is great info Thanks! 
I don't have corid, don't think I can get to the feed store before they close today  But I do need to go to the grocery, so I can look for the kaopectate. I am almost out of pepto. We've never had to give anything other than pepto for scours as it usually helped pretty quickly. 

Since I started her on SMZ's I'm guessing not to give her penG since the SMZ's have an antibiotic in them?


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Pepto, along with a sulfa antibiotic would be where I would start. If it doesn't clear up in a couple days start neomycin. While your doing all this keep probios up daily... These things can be hard on already upset tummies. 

Most sulfas are 1cc per 5lb the first day and then 1cc per 10lbs for four days afterwards. It sounds like a feed issue but don't rule out cocci... Especially since you said her eyelids were so-so. It comes on in times of stress and a worm load is stressful.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would give her C D Antitoxin..keep her on pepto and do a fecal to see if you are dealing with cocci or some other worm the wormer didnt get


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

also, after you get the diarrhea cleared up you should probably giver her a bath


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Oops! I just caught a slip up I made!
****3oz corid per 16 oz water***** not what i said before!
sorry about that, i was used to mixing it for kids by halving everything. 
For a small batch it would be 1-1/2 oz corid per 8 oz water


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Not Cocci*

Alright... I DON'T think this is Cocci like first thought...

It is definitely the feed.

One of the kids wethers has the same thing 

The diarrhea on the doe seems a tiny bit better, BUT, she's starting to walk weak on the hind end.

I checked her eyelids and they are a good pink, not pale.

I am extremely worried, this is like deja vu all over again!  We had similar issue with a buck a couple of years ago who got sick because of feed change.

I am more than kicking myself for listening to the man at the feed store about how they should be just fine eating it since it's the same thing, just no copper, blah, blah, blah! They will hear from me tomorrow! 
These goats were healthy until we had to buy 'lamb' feed because they were out of the goat feed.

I am terrified they are going to go downhill like our buck. I had to treat him for polio type symptom's and it was h*ll.

We gave them both a big dose of Pepto, waited about 20 minutes and gave them each a full scoop of Goat prefer's probios. Then gave them each a shot of B-12 2 1/2-3cc each. We gave it under the skin this time.

I am just beside myself. Never EVER again will I also let my husband tell me not to buy more until we're almost completely out. This is what happens when you do that.

If anyone has any suggestions please let me know. I'm wondering if they need the cd antitoxin? Or should I start treating them with high doses of PenG and the B12 shots every 4-6 hours? I know that's what we did with our buck when he was real sick.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Get scour halt if your feed store has it. It will.clear them right if it is feed which it.sounds like. No more lamb feed at all, just do hay and browse.

Lamb feed is not usually composed the same as goats feed. It tends to be a sweeter type feed and is made with a bit different ingredients.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Dani-1995 said:


> Get scour halt if your feed store has it. It will.clear them right if it is feed which it.sounds like. No more lamb feed at all, just do hay and browse.
> 
> Lamb feed is not usually composed the same as goats feed. It tends to be a sweeter type feed and is made with a bit different ingredients.


Thanks Dani I appreciate it. I do think the feed store has it, if not there is a TSC about 10 minutes away.

They told me at the feed store it wouldn't hurt the goats, that it was the same other than no copper and I think no medication. 
I should have just bought the horse supplement we give them, and just give them a little of that 2x a day like we already do. I shouldn't have listened to them


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes They need C D Antitoxin...any time the rumen has been messed with ...With the meds you already gave...I personally would only do the CD Antitoxin and B complex..I would also give pepto to help sooth the tummy and dry them up...No grain at all grass hay only until you see berries...keep them Hydrated...the home made stuff they seem to really like and so might drink plenty...
Homemade ElectrolytesA half gallon of hot water
2-6 Tablespoons of Unsulphured Blackstrap Molasses
1-2 Tablespoons of Either Sea Salt, Epsom Salt, Baking Soda or Table Salt.
1 cup of Apple Cider Vinegar


Mix well and drench or let them drink it. Most of mine love this stuff unlike the electrolytes you buy..


When I looked on the back of the electrolytes bag at ingredients the main ingredients were Sugars, Sodium/salts and Potassium along with vitamin and minerals..


Molasses is a sugar with Vitamins and Minerals


Of course the salts are hopefully self explanatory..


Apple Cider Vinegar contains potassium..


This is much cheaper than those tiny bags of electrolytes and usually you have these ingredients on hand.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

unless they have fever and are ill I would not do antibiotics at all...it will further mess with the flora of their gut...I would give probiotics however...not too much at once..a little every day for a few days


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks, I can get some C D Antitoxin first thing in the morning. I don't have the Molasses to make the electrolytes  Any other substitute? I do have the apple cider vinegar and baking soda. 

I don't think the doe ate anything at all today, could that make her weak and shaky on the hind end? 

I'm going to go check on them now, and maybe pull some leaves down and see if they will eat them.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

You are saying B12, but I think you mean B1. If you still have B1, I would go to treating like polio like you ended up doing with your buck. Your "happy ending" chances are much better this time because you know what to do. I get the same way you do. You are sort of in an angry state and maybe denial. You don't want to go through it again, but you are a much more experienced goat person this time around. They might not even be getting polio, but I believe history repeats with these things and it's smart that you are having deja vu memories.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you can use reg. molasses or karo syrup..it doesnt have the nutrients the black strap molasses has but the sweetness will encourage drinking...Yes. her not eating will make her weak as will the scours...its taking a lot out of her..do you have any Milk of Magnesia? She needs something to bind the toxins..it is a rock and hard place since MOM can cause the runs and your doe already has them but maybe 3 cc will help them through the night unti you an get CD Antitoxin..


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You can substitute honey as well. It has more nutrients then the syrup.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes, goat hiker, ..like that idea better : )


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Darn, the only thing I have is pancake syrup <sugar-free! But it tastes sweet>.
Worth a shot?

Maybe some good news, but we'll see what happens... The doe's rear end is dry, and her girl parts look dry and pink not covered in wet slime anymore. I got her up, and had her go in the barn to her stall. She was a little sluggish, but went right to her hay feeder. She's nibbling, again sluggish, but first time I've seen her eat all day/evening even if it's a few bites. She even looked for her grain feeder.

The wether is now the one in the really bad state like the doe was in most of the day, his belly hurts 

Tenacross - yep I am very upset with myself for listening and not trusting my inner judgement. Something told me not to be so sure...
Thank goodness for being more experienced this time around, and having the Thiamine <your right B1 not B12 I have no idea why I am thinking B12 all the time>.

Cathy - I don't have any MOM either


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

How about activated characol? 
Keep them hydrated and offering grass hay...a bit of probiotics to help kick start the rumen..
Thiamine is a good support as well as B complex..get some CD Antitoxin as soon as you can...hopefully they will do wel l with out it and you will have it in case another started to feel bad
FOr your wether who tummy hurts...give him about 6 cc pepto to sooth and coat the tummy lining...and help the runs


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

sugar free syrup has artificial sweetners...I wouldnt use it...just do everything else and add brown sugar to sweetening it a bit..or white sugar in a pinch : )


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks! I will do that. We gave them a hefty dose of pepto, for an adult person. If it helps the doe is about 75-80lbs and the wether is 65lbs. so hopefully we didn't overdo the pepto.

I do have brown sugar, so I will try that with the ACV & baking soda, and add it to the water for all of them so they are all drinking well.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Ok, I can't find C D Antitoxin ANYWHERE  Everyone says they've never heard of it, only the cd/t. 

I haven't been outside yet this morning, had to get some things done in here that I put off, getting ready to go out. My daughter said they were about the same as last night. 
We're going to give them another shot of Thiamine, and more probios. 

It's going to be a very hot and possibly somewhat humid day today with a high of 90 being possible.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Hello: I tried to read through everything really really well. 
Spectam scour halt for pigs twice a day for two days
penn G shots twice a day or even every 8 hours, give it as a shot and give some orally
Pepto bismo twice a day
Bounce back or save a caf electrolytes
over course plenty of B and probiotics which you are already doing

the fact that you are saying a lot of scours and how bad they feel and mucus leaves me to thin you have a bacerial infection going on. 
Iv fluids may be needed at this point, you can just get a bag of IV fluids from a vet and the IV kit and put it under their skin in big bubbles.

I really think at this point you are going to need to get IV fluids in them, young kids like that are hard to drench with enough fluid. But I have had some luck mixing Kaolin Pectin for livestock and save a caf 50/50 and drenching with that, it makes it easier for them to swallow than just water. 

Baytril which is a Rx and pricey so you would just get enough for each goat is a great antibiotic for most bacterial stomach problems.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Giving Pen G orally can help kill off some of the bacteria in their rumen you will need to replenish with good bacteria for several days after treatments
also adding baking soda to the drenches is a good idea. 1/2 teaspoon each time.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I'm sorry, I do have to disagree with giving any antibiotic other than neomycin orally..it will do more than kill the bacteria in the gut..it brings the count down so low it makes it hard for the goat to recover...even more so when they are in such a state..

Hoosier...try MOM..or activated charocol...Im pretty sure what you are dealing with is from the feed change..enterotoxemia...binding those toxins is important to help those babies feel better here is a very good article on this from tennesseemeatgoats
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/enterotoxemiaaka.html

the main thing is binding the toxins, keeping them hydrated and pain and swelling relief at the bare minimum..you acted very quickly with your doe and now your wether...this can have a happy ending..it will be more difficult without CD antitoxin but can be done..
When you have a few minutes pop on Jeffers and order a few bottles of C D Antitoxin..so you have it on hand..best of luck


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

happybleats said:


> I'm sorry, I do have to disagree with giving any antibiotic other than neomycin orally..it will do more than kill the bacteria in the gut..it brings the count down so low it makes it hard for the goat to recover...even more so when they are in such a state..
> 
> Hoosier...try MOM..or activated charocol...Im pretty sure what you are dealing with is from the feed change..enterotoxemia...binding those toxins is important to help those babies feel better here is a very good article on this from tennesseemeatgoats
> http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/enterotoxemiaaka.html
> ...


certainly have the right to disagree, I totally understand and respect that right.

Let me back up my penn G or Baytril injections.

My husband suffers from UC(ulcerative colitis) He had a terrible struggle with it 5 or so years ago, he ended up on a lot of medications including IV antibiotics. The doctor said they have no idea why, because UC is not a bacterial infection but giving certain antibiotics systemically can really help get things under control. 
we talked to our vet about this, because we swear that if we give Penn G along with coccidiosis or wormers to a scouring goat the goat response much quicker. He agreed and said it does an excellant job binding with the toxins in the system therefor fighting off secondary infections and making the animal feel better. Baytril is a better choice over Penn G, but is rx and way more expensive. 
Baytril is an very good for getting into certain tissues in the system, such as the mamary gland for mastitis and the gut for bacterial infection. It is considered one of the best antibiotics on the market for e-coli scours. 
Husband works in the turkey industry and neomycin used to be used, but they have found much better medications other than neomycin. 
Those are from my experiences. I apprectiate eveyones in put on this thread so certainly not looking to step on any ones toes.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

happybleats said:


> I'm sorry, I do have to disagree with giving any antibiotic other than neomycin orally..it will do more than kill the bacteria in the gut..it brings the count down so low it makes it hard for the goat to recover...even more so when they are in such a state..
> 
> Hoosier...try MOM..or activated charocol...Im pretty sure what you are dealing with is from the feed change..enterotoxemia...binding those toxins is important to help those babies feel better here is a very good article on this from tennesseemeatgoats
> http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/enterotoxemiaaka.html
> ...


I agree! I gave penicillin orally last year and it made the goat worse. His scours actually increased. I'd be doing eletrolytes and probios to get the rumen going good.... It won't hurt. I agree with scour halt/check. Its a red liquid for pigs but works great.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I think it is a feed issues as well seeing how lambs feeds vary from goat feeds. Both species require and prefer different things, goats are kind of sensetive to new concentrates so I would bet it is feed. 

You need to restore the flora and all in the rumen and stop scours. I'd be giving loads of eletrolytes too because it sounds like alot of fluid loss.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Dani-1995 said:


> I agree! I gave penicillin orally last year and it made the goat worse. His scours actually increased. I'd be doing eletrolytes and probios to get the rumen going good.... It won't hurt. I agree with scour halt/check. Its a red liquid for pigs but works great.


yay, I can see the point about the oral Penn G, I have done it though and saved a couple very very sick goats. But I have not done it often, normally we just give the injections.

I can tell you that one of the biggest breeders in the country recommends, 
C&D antitoxin, 
Penn G shots, 
Penn G orally
B complex shots
Pepto bismo
bovi-serum shots
for any thing that appears to be bacterial or overeating disease and severe scours. I have seen her ost this several times and is very well known. 
I actually only ever use the kaolin Pectin for livestock, which woudl not be the same as pepto bismo, my understanding is that pepto bismo has an active ingredients in it that can lower bacterial counts.

I am sure we will all agree that you need to bind the toxins and you need to get them hydrated. No matter what you do, if you don't get them hydrated enough the rumen wont start working again and they will stay off feed and wont drink on their own.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> I apprectiate eveyones in put on this thread so certainly not looking to step on any ones toes.


My toes are not stepped on at all...there are many views on so many issues...it is good to get them all said so each of us can decide...All treatment should be done with thoughtfulness and caution...we all need to research and understand risks and benefits...thank you for your your courteous reply


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

happybleats said:


> My toes are not stepped on at all...there are many views on so many issues...it is good to get them all said so each of us can decide...All treatment should be done with thoughtfulness and caution...we all need to research and understand risks and benefits...thank you for your your courteous reply


you know she is going to get back on here and have 2 or 3 pages of reading to do. LOL. 
I do hope the goats start to make a turn around for her. I have one right now that we found this morning in bad shape, It is so frustrating. She is 3 months old and so anemic she looks bled out. Very very frustrating.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks everyone, lol that all managed to fit on this page, haha 

They still have runny butts. We have them together in front of the barn, there is a small pen w/large shelter. 
The wether IMO isn't feeling as awful as the doe. He'll get up and nibble on hay, walk around, and lay back down, etc. She's staying in the barn in the shade.

I can't find the c d antitoxin, but called the vet to order more thiamine and asked if they could get it for me as well. Problem is it would probably be tomorrow before they could get it.

Should I try the MOM? Or where exactly do I get the activated charcoal? 

I definitely think this is all because of the feed. The wether especially, has been absolutely fine until he started eating the lamb feed.


I will look for the Scour halt when we go to the feed store, I am sure it's a lot better than pepto. 

Oh, BTW, I did put out baking soda for them, the doe ate a bit of it last night. It's hot out today, so everyone is laying around.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

scour halt is medicated for bacterial scours, it is way way way better. get it right away.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:


> scour halt is medicated for bacterial scours, it is way way way better. get it right away.


Yep, I forgot to mention that. Its great stuff all the way around for goats. Its a little pricey but well worth it


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yes..you can give the MOM...15 cc per 60# is what is recommended 
activated charcoal can be found at most tractor supply..


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Everyone! Okay, I stopped by the vets office to get some more thiamine, and the vet talked with me. He said I should start them on PenG, keep them on thiamine, and give them some banamine as well. He said to keep going with the pepto but not too often and let him know if they don't get better by the end of the week.

I couldn't find anything else I needed, it's very frustrating. As much as I read about some of this stuff on here, I really thought it would be easier to find. 

Good news is, we let them out after giving them meds, and they have been back in the woods browsing & eating. So hopefully that will help. When we go out to feed the others we'll give them thiamine and more probios. 

The feed store did refund us on both bags and gave a little more than what we paid. They made goat feed today, so we were able to get their regular feed. 
My son saw part of the machine that closes the bags, so now he wants to take a tour lol We're going to talk to the 4-H club and see if we can get a trip to the feed mill in the near future  

The woman at the feed store that generally waits on us was surprised that the lamb feed made them sick. Definitely shows how sensitive their digestive system is.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You can order the CD Antitoxin from Jeffers...


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

scour halt is good, so is biosal,
I agree with 20kids about giving the antibiotics for scours, I always give penicillin or LA-200 for scours, along with some kao, works great. I have never had an animal get worse by giving antibiotics.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> scour halt is good, so is biosal,
> I agree with 20kids about giving the antibiotics for scours, I always give penicillin or LA-200 for scours, along with some kao, works great. I have never had an animal get worse by giving antibiotics.


I think that what we are saying about not using antibiotics is that both Goats were fine until the feed changed. With feed changes there is no need for antibiotics and by over using you'll create resistance problems. It happens alot in people and pets that are over medicated. Like anything, the body gets used to it and it doesn't work.

I try not to use antibiotics if I don't have too. I save them for when I really, really need them.

Now, if this goes on for more than five days I would start on antibiotics. But just the fact that the feed was changed and then the scours started tell me they don't really need any antibiotic.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I don't have an opinion on which is right, if I had one that got diarrhea after a feed change I wouldn't give antibiotics right away either, but pretty much whenever one of my kids gets diarrhea I start them on Dimethox and Pepto and that usually works. Thing is though, when it's a feed thing and they get diarrhea you have to worry about enterotoxemia bacteria going crazy and some people believe in Pen G for that. If I was Candice, I would listen to my vet.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Where some people get confused is what the antibiotics are being used for. Sulfa drugs are antibiotics, but we know it helps with coccidia. Scour halt, Biosol and neomycin are used to treat a bacterial caused scours. Pen G is used to fight enterotoxemia bacteria, which in Hoosier's case could be a secondary problem after the feed change problem.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks so much everyone, I can't even begin to tell you all how much I appreciate you all 

The wether seems to be doing better early this evening. The doe is still not doing very well. She's extremely sunken in and looks horrible 
We put them in the does 'bedtime' stall together for the night. The wether was eating hay and looking for grain. The doe did look for grain, but settled for some baking soda I put in her feeder.

I didn't give them anymore pepto, it's extremely hard to get anything in the wether, he's soooo stubborn! Holds it, spits it, fights us, etc. I figure as long as we get the other meds in him and some probios a couple of times a day, then he should be okay I hope.

I want to order the C D antitoxin, but honestly I don't have the $$ for it in the bank, I might be able to make a deposit tomorrow.

I've been watching the others like crazy. So far they all seem fine. I can't help but feel paranoid about the others getting sick too.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Could you tube the doe to get liquids in her? 
Would you be willing to try to give her blackberry root tea? Just plain roots boiled in water, and give it to her. Helped my heifer calf that had scours for almost a week, she was almost dead from scouring so bad, but I stuck it in her bottle, she drank it right up, 12 hours later she was all cleared up.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Could you tube the doe to get liquids in her?
> Would you be willing to try to give her blackberry root tea? Just plain roots boiled in water, and give it to her. Helped my heifer calf that had scours for almost a week, she was almost dead from scouring so bad, but I stuck it in her bottle, she drank it right up, 12 hours later she was all cleared up.


Thanks I do have a tube kit. Where do you get the blackberry roots? I'm getting ready to go out and check on her and see how she's doing, I'm really worried about her


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

The doe may have something else going on if she's not improving. Usually feed problems clear up in a couple days. She very well could have coccidia or another.issue going on

Do you have any neomycin for bacterial infection or sulmet/dimethox for coccidia? She should be well on her way to getting better.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Just read through this. The doe being unthrifty before this started tells me she may have something on top of the feed issues. I would strongly recommend running a fecal so you can at least rule out coccidia, if not act upon it. So sorry about all this! I know how terrifying it is, I am such a mess when any of my goats are sick. It's been a tough year for many.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Oh, well I was hoping you had some growing around you.... I practically have walls of them growing out here.
Do you know where any grow in your area? At any rivers? Freinds houses? If not maybe they have some in a health food store? Or have a tea out there already made?


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

To help everyone organize, can you make a list of the timeline and all you have done for her so far?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

The wether seems better this morning, but we'll see. My daughter was leading him up by the back deck so I could give him his meds while I was cooking breakfast <love multitasking lol>, and she said by the gate he pooped berries with a little diarrhea. But hey...BERRIES! His rear end looked dry and somewhat clean, like he hadn't had any of the real runny stuff all night.

The doe is still about the same  I have to go get more needles and penG, etc. so I am going to try one more time to find scour halt. I'm sure someone has it. 
I do want to give the penG a chance to work since we just started it yesterday.
I'm thinking she must have it bad enough, that it's going to take her longer to get over it.

I'll try to get the camera out later and get some pics.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im thinking she still might have toxins in her gut...try a bit of activated charcoal if you cant get C D Antitoxin...couldnt hurt and might help...also add probios 3-4 hours after Pen G treatment to help restore flora...keep her hydrated is very important..best wishes


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Cathy, I am thinking she still has toxins as well. I can't believe the lack of resources in my area. You'd think I could find 'something' for livestock. I may try calling TSC and see if they have activated charcoal. I know they don't have the C D Antitoxin. 
I may end up calling the vet if she isn't showing any signs of improvement this afternoon and see if I can get any activated charcoal from them. I know the woman at the front desk said they do have some but only give it if they absolutely have to. I do think this is one of those cases...

BTW, I just turned to look out the window, and she was butting the wether and trying to bully him. This is the first time I've seen her even slightly 'perky'.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Glad to hear she's perking up. I would have some CD anti-toxin shipped from Jeffers, for future use. The stuff is a life-saver, I can't reccomend it enough after it helped my kids this year.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Yep Danielle, as soon as I can tomorrow I am ordering some.

Ok...

I DO think we have tapeworm. I don't think it's been the cause of this issue though.

I was checking poo, and the wether had a 'fresh' pile. I pulled it apart after thinking I saw something, and saw some little 'rice' looking things in his feces. Compared to pics on line and looks like small Tape segments.

I need the most effective <but least expensive> way to treat everyone for tapes. Safeguard isn't very effective and it's expensive having to dose 13 goats every 3 days then again a couple of weeks later.

We've been using cydectin, so I guess it makes sense. Again I don't think this is what caused the problem, especially since the wether is back to 'berries' and is acting fine again, but I want to get everyone treated.

BTW, Quest Plus should kill tapes, so the doe should be good to go on that, I gave her a big dose.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

sounds like tape..Vabazen will take care of it...: ) unless they are heavy loaded with Tape, no it wasnt the problem...


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

HoosierShadow said:


> Yep Danielle, as soon as I can tomorrow I am ordering some.
> 
> Ok...
> 
> ...


we use equimax, one time at twice the dosage for a horse, i always go up if I need to or am not sure on weight. not sure if it is cheap, but like you said you use so much of safegaurd, woudl be the same with valbazen that you are probably just as well to buy the horse paste. 
Valbazen woudl then be your next cheapest bet, $38 for a bottle the last I priced, more than enough to do all of them 3 days in a row, but doesn't get rid of the heads of the tapeworms, just teh segments.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

I doubt tapes were the main problem, but it can all add up to be a lot of stress on the animal.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

20kidsonhill said:


> we use equimax, one time at twice the dosage for a horse, i always go up if I need to or am not sure on weight. not sure if it is cheap, but like you said you use so much of safegaurd, woudl be the same with valbazen that you are probably just as well to buy the horse paste.
> Valbazen woudl then be your next cheapest bet, $38 for a bottle the last I priced, more than enough to do all of them 3 days in a row, but doesn't get rid of the heads of the tapeworms, just teh segments.


Oh wow I didn't know it didn't get rid of the head of the tapeworm, geesh! We do typically use equimax, just haven't used it on the kids this year, and it was earlier this year that we used it on the does. I'll look for something else, most likely use equimax, I want those suckers dead lol


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> but doesn't get rid of the heads of the tapeworms, just teh segments.


Im curious about this..I have never heard or read this...could you point me to a link to read more about it?..Im not questioning your knowledge.. I just like to have sources for references and study..thank you


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

20kidsonhill:

Tapeworms:Moniezia benedeni, M. expansa (*heads and segments*)

this is what I find over and over..am I missing something..?? Is the dose differnt perhaps to get both head and segments..grant you many of these sights do not include goats inthe list of animals treated with Valbazen but sheep are included..


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm curious too. I do remember reading on one page that it said only good for segments. But on others it said heads and segments.

I ended up getting equimax, since I am familiar with it. Plus this is the time of year we get into 'round worm' and ivermectin will help with those suckers.
I'm going to do all the young 4-H goats now, and the adult does later since it hasn't been too long since they had Quest Plus.

I'm wondering if I should worm the 5 week old triplets now or wait a couple of weeks? 
They are getting their 2nd cd/t booster today, so if I am worming them I'd like to do it when we give the shots.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

happybleats said:


> 20kidsonhill:
> 
> Tapeworms:Moniezia benedeni, M. expansa (*heads and segments*)
> 
> this is what I find over and over..am I missing something..?? Is the dose differnt perhaps to get both head and segments..grant you many of these sights do not include goats inthe list of animals treated with Valbazen but sheep are included..


 maybe, I know I read it. LOL. I may even have it saved. I can tell you when I use the equimax entire tapeworms fall out of htem, like a baseball size pile the next day will be on the ground. I have never had that happen just using valbazen or synanthic. And I have all used all three wormers at one point. Let me do a search, but might take me a day or so.

found it and I think I remembered the info wrong. Here is what it says. 
Thanks for getting me to look that up and reading it again, it has been a few years since I read it I had it saved on my computer and clearly misunderstood it the first time or started remembering it wrong. http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/tapeworms.html

*Treatment and control*

Four drugs are typically used to treat tapeworm infections inanimals: praziquantel, albendazole (Valbazen®), oxyfendazole (Synathic®), andfenbendazole (SafeGuard®, Panacur®). In the United States, praziquantel ismarketed for dogs and cats under the tradenames Droncit® and Drontal®.Praziquantel is an ingredient in several horse dewormers: Zimecterin® GoldPaste, Equimax™ Paste, and Quest® Plus Gel. Many anthelmintics marketed inother countries (for sheep and goats ) have a praziquantel component. There areno anthelmintics which contain praziquantel that are currently labeled forsheep and goats in the U.S.


__
https://flic.kr/p/617428092
 Praziquantelis effective against both the adult and immature stages of tapeworms whereasthe benzimidazole anthelmintics only kill the head and segments. Albendazole isconsidered to be the most effective of the benzimidazole drugs. While itusually less effective than praziquantel, it is usually sufficient forcontrolling tapeworm infections. Fenbendazole is not labeled for the control oftapeworms (in goats), but will aid in their removal (heads and segments), ifthe dose is doubled. Oxfendazole is not label for use in either sheep or goatsin the U.S.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

I swear I had read somewhere only segments, but I would trust this report from university of Maryland. I always enjoy reading reports from them.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Wow that is great info about the wormers! 
I'm glad to hear that Praziquantel is a good, strong wormer. When I am looking for more 'broad spectrum' I always try to get something with Praz in it.

Well the good news is, the wether is back to himself, no more diarrhea!

And... looks like the doe is finally done with scouring as well! She was more energetic this evening, trying to get in the barn for feeding time. 
They were both VERY upset that they did not get their evening feed. The doe looked at the full hay feeder and was like 'Your kidding right? That's all your giving me?"

I usually wait at least 24hours of having good, solid berries before I start offering a few handfuls of grain again, so hopefully the wether can have a little tomorrow. He'll have plenty of hay to keep him occupied. Thankfully, it didn't seem to take a lot out of him.
It will take longer to get the doe back in shape, it really took it's toll on her  She's soooo sunken in 

Dusty <the wether> gave me that heartbreaking look as I came in. "Dinner? Please?" I feel so bad, poor babies don't understand why they aren't getting their bellies full like their buddies.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

so happy they are up and going : ) now maybe you can relax a bit..maybe even sleep lol...


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Cathy! I sure hope so, whew, the doe had me soooo worried. Hopefully she feels even better through the night. I'm going to check on them in a little while when I give the baby her last bottle.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

They do have a way of keeping our blood pumping!!!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I thought I'd update and say that everyone seems to be back to normal! The doe still looks rough from her ordeal, but she's acting normal again. She begged and begged for her feed, so I let her have a little -- she got into a little that was left in a feeder earlier today and was fine. In fact, I think it helped get her producing regular poo again lol
Wether is just fine and back on his grain. He eats a lot of hay so that will help balance things out. I'll give them both more probios tomorrow.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

That's great! I'm glad to hear their doing better.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

good news : ) I love happy endings : )


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks! Whew, so glad. I can't even begin to tell you all how stressful this past week was. 
Everyone is back on their feed, doing fine. The doe was yelling at me this morning to hurry up with her breakfast lol I hope we can get her looking good again before the kids first show on the 18th. She's really sunken in, and she is the one I've posted about in the past that has a sunken look we couldn't get rid of, but this is much worse from being so sick. 
Oh and she's absolutely the pickiest goat we have. She refuses to drink if you put ANYTHING in her water. Also have to keep her feed pretty basic, although she does seem to eat it with rice bran oil okay.

The wether will pretty much eat anything lol


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