# Over Height issue.



## WalnutGroveFarm (Sep 27, 2008)

Ok just wondering what you all felt about the over height issue. Are you for are against it , are does it not really matter to you. I hope im allowed to post things like this. I guess I should add that they are putting in a proposal to increase the bucks height. Just really curious about what other people think. I like my nigerians the way they are, but Im just not sure what to think about it all. Thanks.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I think the breed standard for max height is fine with ADGA....Now, I do feel that each registry available for ND should all have the same height requirements. Mainly because what is comnsidered "over height" with NDGA is acceptable by AGS...which is confusing I think.
My 2 does have been "officially" measured and at 6 years, Binkey is at 20 1/4" and at 2 years Penny is at 20 3/4"....I have yet to get one on Chief.

I do like a dairy looking nigi though because there are way too many in this area that confuse the stockier built nigies with pygmies.


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

I chose 'For' because there are some really great does/bucks with great mammary/bloodlines that could have come from normal height parents.


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## WalnutGroveFarm (Sep 27, 2008)

Thanks for your answer, I think that is alot of people's problem with it, cause if ADGA increases it then bucks will be over height with AGS. That and they think that then people will be pushing the stick on the bucks and making even bigger ones and then in a few years they will be asking for an increase for the does. I guess I need to measure mine, I havnt maybe they are all over lol. Idk just wanted some people's opinions on it.


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## WalnutGroveFarm (Sep 27, 2008)

That is another thing I have read is people are saying that some of the best ND goats have come from OH bucks. That people are just hiding them in their barns and they are using them anyways. Some people think that ADGA should pull all papers on OH bucks, but then that would cause problems for all their decendents from them. They are also upset cause people know bucks are OH and sell them to other people with their papers. Im not sure how I feel about it. But I have nigerian dwarfs cause they are little and if I wanted bigger goats then I would raise something bigger. So not sure at this point how to feel about it all.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

No matter what the height limit, some breeders will push to get their animals as close to the limit as possible. This will result in plenty of their stock going over. They can't show those particular animals, but put them in the breeding shed hoping to get more maximum height animals (so they can get maximum sized mammary systems). This all results in more over-height animals. Certain farms are notorious for this....and although they have nice animals, I hesitate to buy from them because I want to be able to show all my goats, and not have to worry about them growing up to be over height or producing kids that are too large.

That being said, I wouldn't mind the limit being a little taller, but not much.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I heard this option was off the table.

But for me im for it. 

I've seen real nice bucks "go over" because of nice sharp withers (desirable) and its such a shame.

You can't pull papers on over height bucks - what do you do with all their kids reg under them?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I personally think the limit is fine where it is. I just feel like we need to draw the line somewhere for our standards. This topic is brought up every now and then amongst the nigerian breeders, but it never seems to move forward with actually proposing a height increase with ADGA. AGS just announced that they are not considering changing the height. :shrug:


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## Mon Reve Farm (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm in the not sure category.

Thanks for asking the question Joanie. I've seen some heated discussions and was afraid to ask the question. I'm leaning towards against only because they are a dwarf breed and if I wanted standard size I would have gone with LaManchas. LOL


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## WalnutGroveFarm (Sep 27, 2008)

I may be wrong but I think they are wanting to put in a proposal are have already, cause its being talked about alot. But again I may be wrong. Yeah pulling papers on all OH bucks would really cause an uproar. Then everyone would want to be refunded from the breeders who sold babies out of these bucks knowing they where overheight.

So does everyone think its alright to keep OH bucks in your breeding program knowing that they could throw OH kids that cant be shown or most people wouldnt even breed them. Then that person is stuck with a buck or doe that cant be shown. Do you think its okay to take a buck that is OH and sell him to someone else cause you dont want him in your breeding program cause he went over but not pull his papers before he goes. Just curious about all this. Ive seen some nice goats almost not get shown cause they where right at the stick, and then they finished that buck that day and then he was put up for sale.


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## WalnutGroveFarm (Sep 27, 2008)

This was posted from another website, I hope im allowed to post this here, so I do think a proposal has went into ADGA.




Nigerian Dwarf Height Proposal - presented to ADGA
Home About Us A large group of ND breeders - from all over the country, came together to propose a Breed Standard Disqualification change, and presented this proposal to ADGA. Our purpose is NOT to have the ND breed gain height in general; rather, it is to preserve the genetic base, and to legitimize the practices that already exist. 


Frequently Asked Questions/Myths:

-In a few years we will be back asking to have the doe height increased.

This is not true. The last several decades have shown that bucks that are overheight and used with discretion, do NOT increase the doe height overall. This is evidenced by the stable height range of the ND doe, under 22.5". AGS heights recorded for purposes of DHI support this statement, as well as Linear Appraisal scores for stature of the ND doe. Because of this, as well as our belief that the ND doe height is at its accurate maximum, we see no reason to request that it be changed.


-This height increase will result in Nigerians being bigger and bigger, and soon they'll all look like Alpines.

No, not even a little. Over height bucks have been used with discretion throughout the entire history of the breed, and yet the breed heights remain stable. What is possible, though, is that if the discretionary use of the currently considered 'over height' bucks is forbidden, the breed - as a whole - will decrease in size. If someone wants to use an over height buck that produces over height daughters, well, that's kind of biting their nose off to spite their face. It doesn't make sense. But, if an over height buck produces beautiful, dairy daughters - all within the limit, then the use of that buck is warranted - and should be allowed. 

-This will force breeders to breed to three standards.

A breeder - any breeder - has the absolute right to breed to whatever standard they so choose. Currently there are 2 separate breed standards - one for NDGA, and the other is used by ADGA and AGS. Our breed standard change is for ADGA animals only; neither AGS nor NDGA are, or will be, affected. Simply because there is a maximum height does not mean that is the height to aim for. It is merely a cut-off point for the herdbook.

-The people behind this proposal are doing it because they have over height animals. 

Although this statement feels like a personal attack and is hurtful, it bears no truth. Many Nigerian Dwarf breeders (including some of those voicing the loudest opposition) have - and have had – over height bucks at one time or another. 


-Why change the height standard when you can just hide your over height animals?

Well, ethics. We feel that we should work to advance our breed through channels and guidelines provided by ADGA. The current philosophy of many breeders is to hide the over height bucks, or finish and LA them before age 2, and move them on. We are opposed to that philosophy. We feel that it is to the long-term advantage to the breed for breeders to honestly present their animals for LA. The LA program is one of the benefits of registering with ADGA, but the data is only as good as the animals who are presented. 


-How did we arrive at our maximum height suggestion?

First and foremost, we believe that ADGA should treat the ND the same as all the other breeds. A dairy goat is a dairy goat - they just come in different sizes and colors! So, data was obtained from ADGA on the 'stature' trait from the last 5 years of Linear Appraisals (all breeds). What we found is that the average difference in stature between males and females is 9.9%. 

Currently, the maximum height difference allowed between ND bucks and does is 4% - much lower than the average. Interestingly enough, even NDGA allows a 2" maximum height difference between their bucks and does, which is 8.7%. Below are the findings of our study (I know, ...statistics...eew!):



LINEAR SCORES FOR STATURE TRANSLATED TO INCHES: 

(Linear Score=Inches - i.e. 5 – 26.0”) 

5
26.0

20
29.0

35
32.0

6
26.2

21
29.2

36
32.2

7
26.4

22
29.4

37
32.4

8
26.6

23
29.6

38
32.6

9
26.8

24
29.8

39
32.8

10
27.0

25
30.0

40
33.0

11
27.2

26
30.2

41
33.2

12
27.4

27
30.4

42
33.4

13
27.6

28
30.6

43
33.6

14
27.8

29
30.8

44
33.8

15
28.0

30
31.0

45
34.0

16
28.2

31
31.2

46
34.2

17
28.4

32
31.4

47
34.4

18
28.6

33
31.6

48
34.6

19
28.8

34
31.8

49
34.8





Mean Linear Scores for Stature averaged from 2005 – 2010

Based on breed, separated by sex

Provided by ADGA 


Alpine
Ober
Sable
LaMancha
Nubian
Saanen
Togg

Does
24.1
17.0
25.2
20.9
26
28.4
19.0

Bucks
40.4
32.9
39.2
39.9
41.7
43.9
34.6





Mean Linear Scores for Stature (above, and rounded out) translated into Inches

DOES
Alpine
Ober
Sable
LaMancha
Nubian
Saanen
Togg

Mean
24
17
25
21
26
28.5
20

Inches
29.8
28.4
30
29.2
30.2
30.7
29





BUCKS
Alpine
Ober
Sable
LaMancha
Nubian
Saanen
Togg

Mean
40.5
33
39
40
42
44
34.5

Inches
33.1
31.6
32.8
33
33.4
33.8
31.9





Mean difference between sexes based on breed

Alpine
Ober
Sable
LaMancha
Nubian
Saanen
Togg

10% 
10%
9%
12%
10%
9%
9%

3.3”
3.2”
2.8”
3.8”
3.2”
3.1”
2.9”





IMPRESSION

The average mean difference between sexes of all standard breeds is 9.9%.

Using 22.5” as maximum height for ND does, based on the average mean difference between sexes of 9.9%, the maximum height for ND bucks should be 24.7”.

No standard deviations have been applied. The mean accounts for 2/3 of the goat population (ADGA, 2010).



-So what happens now?

It all depends. Our proposal has been submitted to the ADGA Breed Standards Committee. That committee is charged with determining whether or not the proposal has merit and contains required elements. At this point, the proposal has been returned to us with comments for things that need clarification/changed. Once the changes have been done, the Proposal will be submitted again to the Breed Standards Committee for review. If they accept it as written, a poll of the membership will be taken through the News and Events. If it passes by a 2/3 majority vote, the proposal will be presented to the Board of Directors for ratification.

- I understand that the Nigerian Dwarf breed club (ANDDA) did a survey of their members and the majority did not want the height raised. Why are we still voting on it?

ANDDA represents breeders from all three registries - ADGA, AGS, and NDGA. The poll was not limited to only ADGA members, and this issue is an "ADGA only" issue. Other registries may have different criteria for their breed standard leading those registry members to vote a different way. Furthermore there are close to 900 Nigerian Dwarf breeders in ADGA. Only 63 breeders answered the survey.




-“Is it paranoid of me to imagine that there is some force on the committee that wants to screw up our breed or fundamentally change it for the worse?”


This question was actually received in an email by a member of our group. Not only is it paranoid, it is also insulting, not to mention a little silly. Let’s just think about this rationally, unemotionally, for a minute. To what purpose would it serve to “screw up our breed”? All of the breeders who have signed the proposal are dedicated, Nigerian loving, breeders. Some have been there from the beginning, others are new, most are in the middle somewhere. All of us have worked diligently to IMPROVE the breed. If some “force on the committee” were intending to “fundamentally change (the breed) for the worse” the rest of the group would have voted them down.

Do you have more questions?

We're here to help! Please feel free to contact us with any questions! We are a large group so your question will be passed on to the person that can best answer it.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Very good questions and answers.

My question to everyone is this: if we can't know if a buck will go overweight until full grown (4 years old) do you not use a buck until he is 4? 

So by using a young buck (under 4 years) you are using a potential over height buck and passing those genetics on. Just some food for thought.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh and I've never heard of anyone "hiding away" their overweight bug is. Everyone here is like "yup he's over height and I bred him to this doe and this doe and this doe" the breeders still have small does and show them. 

I've always thought the difference in height limit was to small


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## WalnutGroveFarm (Sep 27, 2008)

I wasnt saying people are hiding OH bucks in their barn I read that. I would tell someone that a buck of mine was overheight. I would probably also sell him with papers but I would make sure I disclosed that information to them and they knew what they was getting. Im not sure it would hurt the bucks to have a little more height on the does. Ive seen some very nice bucks right at the stick at 3 r 4 years old. 

Also your right no one knows if a buck is going to go over untill they are full grown. I havnt measured my guys at all I guess I need to do that. But you nerver know whether they will go over are not when you breed them young. So I guess we are always taking a chance.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

When it comes to breed standard with height, as was mentioned...there are some wonderful looking nigerians "out there" that conform to the breed standard as far as characteristics but also go over height by a "smidge".
Because so many use a buckling for breeding before he is a mature adult, theres no way to know if he will be over the breed standard.
AGS and ADGA are at least agreeable with their standard in does 22-1/2" and bucks at 23 -1/2" NDGA is the one that has the "ideal" at 17-19" for does and 19-21" for bucks but up to 21" for does and 23" for bucks is allowed. I personally feel that if I'm going to breed a Nigerian Dwarf to stay at 17-19 inches, I may as well breed pygmies...that short of a stature is better suited to the "non dairy" breed, I love pygmies and have milked them but I much prefer to be able to set a bucket under my doe and still have the room to milk her.
I would not purposely breed for an overheight ND but it does happen....my wether Teddy is the result of my pygmy/nigi doe and my pb nigi buck and Teddy is 24"....his dam is 20" and my buck is yet to be measured, definately not as tall as his son.
IF AGS and ADGA raised the standard to 24 1/2 to 25 for bucks, I seriously don't think it should be an issue because most standards are easily 30" plus and if these bucks are breeding quality, the does height should be considered when choosing to breed the 2.
Just my :2cents: here.


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## WalnutGroveFarm (Sep 27, 2008)

I think that if its raised they are still going to be DQ in the ring if they reach 24.7" but not sure on this. I know AGS says they are not changing their heights, so what this will cause if ADGA does when people show in a show that is hosting ADGA/AGS if they are showing a bigger buck they wont be able to show in the AGS show cause he will be over there standards. But I agree NDGA heights seem way under to me to.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I am against. I have seen this issue with dogs before. If you raise it now it is only a matter of years before some want to raise it again. This becomes a cycle and the original breed standard is lost and a new breed is basically developed. I feel that if people want to have bigger Nigerian Dwarfs that there should be a category for Nigerians and they can have a different height and be in their own class. That way the gene pool for those wanting to keep Dwarf Nigerians isn't totally polluted by those only wanting to use the larger sized ones to get bigger mammary systems. I personally want to breed the smallest best producers I can. Yes you never know how a goat will mature and I would use my bucks before 4 years old and possibly they would end up over but I wouldn't purposefully breed a over buck even if he could throw under kids there is a lot more possibility that he can throw over kids.


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm against it because the Nigerian Dwarf is a miniature goat, and should have a miniature like height. I don't what Nigerians to be huge, they loose there cute factor!


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Just thought i'd post some poll results...quite interesting.

Do you want to see a height increase?

The ANDDA poll from late February 2011 was 63 votes total, 44 NO (69%) and 19 YES (30%)
There was also a poll taken on a nigerian dwarf yahoo list: 93 votes total, 50 NO (53%) and 35 YES (37%) with 4 NOT SURE (4%) and 4 DON'T CARE (4%).


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## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

If you want to make a larger Dwarf make a different breed and don't call it a Dwarf. I'm against the height change because they already have very few (if any) color requirements and if they get too high they won't be much different from the Alpines. I feel like they would loose their uniqueness.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

What do you guys think about using an over height buck in your herd?


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## Mon Reve Farm (Jun 25, 2010)

I think no... But as a few have mentioned if you are using a buck at 12ish months do you really know what height he will finally mature at...


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

KW Farms said:


> What do you guys think about using an over height buck in your herd?


I would not do it if he was over. I would use a buck that is younger and not at his full height even though I don't know what height he will end up.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

freedomstarfarm said:


> KW Farms said:
> 
> 
> > What do you guys think about using an over height buck in your herd?
> ...


Yes I would - and I see using a junior buck as playing with the chance of OH as I mentioned so I dont see it as any different :shrug:


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## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

I'd say go for it if he's worth it conformation wise. Even though he might throw some kids too large, he's also likely to throw smaller ones, and then you can just breed those on. But I'm a sucker for going for it


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I would too...especially if that buck has the udder genetics to help fix any faults with the doe...and I do like "legs" on a ND so breeding an OH buck to a shorter body type doe would be an improvement with her kids.


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## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

I am against the height limit raised, but also against the papers being pulled. I think the choice should be up to the breeder as to whether a buck (or doe) should be used. Just like we can look at a goat with any other flaw and decide whether it has other characteristics we want to keep in our herd.

So, if I have a doe with posty rear legs but an awesome mammary, I might keep her around and breed her to a buck that improves rear leg angulation. If I have a tall animal who is correct in every other way, I will breed him or her to a smaller one until the height comes back into line.

All of this, of course, if my decision and I may or may not end up with the result I am looking for or it may take me a long while to get the preferred result, but the choice is mine as a breeder and I can measure my results by showing. If the animal is overheight, it doesn't (or shouldn't) get to go in the ring, if the legs are posty or the toes are out, or whatever, then points will be taken off and I won't win. 

Seems simple to me. Not sure why we need to have a big long discussion with the registry and vote on a bunch of changes that will make things more difficult and confusing (like pulling papers or preventing offspring from being registered).

As buyers, we can also choose whether we want to buy from herds with overheight animals. If a breeder won't disclose height and it's important to you, run the other way! I like to see the heights posted right on the farm website (working on getting all of mine measured and posted now) so the buyer can make an imformed decision.


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## idgr (Jun 28, 2019)

I am the owner of International Dairy Goat Registry. Its little known that we were the original registry for the Nigerian Dwarf in the United States. Our first registrations (upon request from original breeders in the USA) were in 1981. After 4 1/2 years of careful research into the breed through original breeders, West Africa and research of how they react to better feeds in the USA, our breed standards was born.

I agree that the height should not be increased. It is already higher in AGS and ADGA that the breed actually is. These are miniature dairy goats of West African descent and we believe should not be turned into a standard dairy goat.

We at IDGR do actually hold the correct breed standards, as I say, after very careful research on the breed. IDGR and NDGA do have the correct height standards for the breed. There are many correct height Nigerian Dwarfs. We have, at our own farm, generation after generation Nigerian Dwarf who hold the correct height and breed standards. We've been personally breeding since 2009 and don't get overheight. Its quite possible to keep them within height.

These are true dairy goats and we believe they should be kept at the correct breed standards and heights. Not increasing heights as the heights are not correct breed standards in a couple of the registries anyway. I have, for instance a 19" doe who peaked at 2/10 less than half gallon on 2nd freshening and holds her milk. Another tiny doe gave 14% butterfat. Another in 305 on once a day milking gave almost 600 pounds. 

As I say, we did serious hard core research for years into the breed, at the original registry.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

This thread was back in 2011. I don't believe there are currently any discussions in ADGA about changing the height standard.


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