# Activities for bored LGD?



## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

Hi, this is a 1yo CKC Anatolian Shepherd. He doesn’t have much 'work' right now since all the goats are penned and can't/won't trek through the mud to an enclosed pasture. His days include breakfast, a couple hours outside in the enclosed pasture, with 1-2 other dogs, then looks for trouble in the barn, dinner, bed. I can see he is trying hard to control himself but he chews on any of my possessions he can reach, and seems like he really wants a task to do. He is lovely with my doeling but the adult does hate him and push him away whenever he approaches. He steals their grain, or sniffs their butts while eating, or is generally a nuisance. Any suggestions for activities for him (that hopefully don't require me to be present), in a barn over the winter?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Initially you really need to be present a lot.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

goats-n-oats said:


> Hi, this is a 1yo CKC Anatolian Shepherd. He doesn’t have much 'work' right now since all the goats are penned and can't/won't trek through the mud to an enclosed pasture. His days include breakfast, a couple hours outside in the enclosed pasture, with 1-2 other dogs, then looks for trouble in the barn, dinner, bed. I can see he is trying hard to control himself but he chews on any of my possessions he can reach, and seems like he really wants a task to do. He is lovely with my doeling but the adult does hate him and push him away whenever he approaches. He steals their grain, or sniffs their butts while eating, or is generally a nuisance. Any suggestions for activities for him (that hopefully don't require me to be present), in a barn over the winter?


I like to do a lot of supervision in the beginning, nearly constant. How long have you had him? He’s at an age where he can find trouble if he gets bored and isn’t corrected immediately. Other than when he’s out to play with the other dogs, does he have full access to the goats? 

My LGD eats the hay pellets. I’ve just made him mind his manners and he has to wait until they walk away from the dish, then he can clean up their leftovers. Wanting to eat with them is natural. And does pushing him away is fine (as long as they’re not being overly aggressive). They will teach him boundaries and manners. 

It honestly sounds like he’s a pretty great dog if he hangs out all day with the goats and doesn’t try to use them to entertain himself, especially at what can sometimes be a bratty stage. If he’s a playful guy, do you have another LGD or farm dog who is 100% safe to put with him, so he can have a playmate and teammate with him more often? This too will likely have to be supervised so you can set ground rules of when and where it’s okay for them to play. You can try a jollyball and some other durable toys to put in there with him so he has things he’s allowed to chew on and carry around. Mine loved carrying buckets off (with water in them), so I corrected him for that and gave him a jollyball and he loved it. If he likes to play tug, you can stake a thick rope down and let him play with that. Only my farm dog likes tug. My LGD doesn’t enjoy it but each is different. Raw bones are usually good boredom busters. It’s a lot of supervision and figuring things out in the beginning. Is he out at night? I know my LGD is so busy working at night that he sleeps a lot of the day away.


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## wheel-bear-o (Jul 6, 2020)

Our LGD didn't really get out of the puppy stage and start being able to perform independent decision-making until about 18 months. Until then, we had to do a lot of micromanagement. She also is uninterested in pretty much all toys, but a Himalayan yak chew will keep her occupied if she can't do her job. Big dogs take such a long time to mature both physically and mentally - this can be a really tough period but there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

Keep this in mind with regard to most LGDs:


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

FizzyGoats said:


> I like to do a lot of supervision in the beginning, nearly constant. How long have you had him? He’s at an age where he can find trouble if he gets bored and isn’t corrected immediately. Other than when he’s out to play with the other dogs, does he have full access to the goats?
> 
> My LGD eats the hay pellets. I’ve just made him mind his manners and he has to wait until they walk away from the dish, then he can clean up their leftovers. Wanting to eat with them is natural. And does pushing him away is fine (as long as they’re not being overly aggressive). They will teach him boundaries and manners.
> 
> It honestly sounds like he’s a pretty great dog if he hangs out all day with the goats and doesn’t try to use them to entertain himself, especially at what can sometimes be a bratty stage. If he’s a playful guy, do you have another LGD or farm dog who is 100% safe to put with him, so he can have a playmate and teammate with him more often? This too will likely have to be supervised so you can set ground rules of when and where it’s okay for them to play. You can try a jollyball and some other durable toys to put in there with him so he has things he’s allowed to chew on and carry around. Mine loved carrying buckets off (with water in them), so I corrected him for that and gave him a jollyball and he loved it. If he likes to play tug, you can stake a thick rope down and let him play with that. Only my farm dog likes tug. My LGD doesn’t enjoy it but each is different. Raw bones are usually good boredom busters. It’s a lot of supervision and figuring things out in the beginning. Is he out at night? I know my LGD is so busy working at night that he sleeps a lot of the day away.


Thanks for the insights. I got him when he was 3 months old. He is a great dog; I'm just frustrated with the destructive chewing. He has a female LGD same age and my companion dog (4 yo Carolina dog) as playmates. The goats and dogs are currently sectioned off within a barn. What exactly are LGDs supposed to do for work? Just hang around the goat pen and warn them of predators?


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## wheel-bear-o (Jul 6, 2020)

Yep, hanging around is exactly what they do. Ours, as an adult, spends the vast majority of her time lounging comfortably near the herd. If they move, she also moves. Every morning she "makes the rounds" and inspects the pasture, and every night when it starts to get dark she nudges the goats toward the barn if they haven't gone in early enough for her liking. I think she's more comfortable having them over there when it's dark. 

Every now and then she will romp around with them. She is particularly close with the does who were born the same year she was. One doe will pretend-headbutt her and she is delighted by that. She basically wants to do whatever the goats are doing. As a puppy she always tried to eat hay but she's largely grown out of that. 

She warns the goats, poultry and humans if she suspects anything is amiss. She also will become agitated and alert a human if a goat is having a problem, which is very useful. Otherwise just looking at them is most of her job and she's very happy and satisfied doing it.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I agree. 90% of the time it looks like they’re doing nothing at all. But they’ve still got their ears and nose on duty (even if their eyes are closed).  Basically, they just hang out with the goats all day, every day. They lounge around a lot and are there to deter predators and challenge and stop any that aren’t smart enough to be deterred. I think my goats follow my dog around as much as he follows them around. I’d try giving your 1 yr old some safe chew toys and correct him when he chews on something of yours and just know, this too shall pass. It’s just a phase.


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

wheel-bear-o said:


> Yep, hanging around is exactly what they do. Ours, as an adult, spends the vast majority of her time lounging comfortably near the herd. If they move, she also moves. Every morning she "makes the rounds" and inspects the pasture, and every night when it starts to get dark she nudges the goats toward the barn if they haven't gone in early enough for her liking. I think she's more comfortable having them over there when it's dark.
> 
> Every now and then she will romp around with them. She is particularly close with the does who were born the same year she was. One doe will pretend-headbutt her and she is delighted by that. She basically wants to do whatever the goats are doing. As a puppy she always tried to eat hay but she's largely grown out of that.
> 
> She warns the goats, poultry and humans if she suspects anything is amiss. She also will become agitated and alert a human if a goat is having a problem, which is very useful. Otherwise just looking at them is most of her job and she's very happy and satisfied doing it.


Ok this is helpful thanks.


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

FizzyGoats said:


> I agree. 90% of the time it looks like they’re doing nothing at all. But they’ve still got their ears and nose on duty (even if their eyes are closed).  Basically, they just hang out with the goats all day, every day. They lounge around a lot and are there to deter predators and challenge and stop any that aren’t smart enough to be deterred. I think my goats follow my dog around as much as he follows them around. I’d try giving your 1 yr old some safe chew toys and correct him when he chews on something of yours and just know, this too shall pass. It’s just a phase.


Ok. He does have some of those fancy rubber chew toys but isn't much interested in them. He can chew through anything even dog food cans. Is it safe to give him scavenged deer bones from around the property to chew on? 
Today ironically he got a star for goatherding - he barked to get my attention outside, then motioned to the gate, when his doeling buddy wanted back into the pen with her dam.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I love when they surprise us with those extra caring acts that go beyond guarding and in to helping and nurturing. Melts my heart. Deer bones should be fine. As long as bones aren’t cooked, they’re generally safe. My dog didn’t much like most chew toys either. I had to go through a few to find anything remotely interesting to him. Luckily, the no-go toys didn’t go to waste because my farm dog loves them all. I found out my dog liked big things to carry around and chew on. He’s out of that phase now. But for a while, buckets, scrub brushes, and hoses took a hit until I could correct him for each thing and find something he’d be interested in. I was lucky though, he outgrew it quickly.


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

Thanks everybody for your insights. 
Made me think. Maybe he can focus on playing with this one doeling. 
I should mention that I took time off from work to focus on my farm; one if those items being a large breed puppy who was not controlling his aggression. I knew if he didn't get more training I'd have to sell or rehome him. He's a lot more thoughtful now. 
One thing I thought to mention is, he seems like a natural scent dog. One of my pullets was chased out of the coop by an aggressive rooster. I let the puppy sniff some bloody feathers, and he took me about 150 feet to a creek, where there was chicken poop and more white feathers. We didn't see the pullet, but the next morning I found her wandering a few feet from there. Is there some job this LGD can do in this field?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

He should NOT be playing with the goats. That is going to lead to some heartache when he starts playing too rough.


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

ksalvagno said:


> He should NOT be playing with the goats. That is going to lead to some heartache when he starts playing too rough.


But isn't his purpose to interact with them?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Question about leaving mastiff puppy alone with does | The Goat Spot Forum August 23, 2022



goats-n-oats said:


> But isn't his purpose to interact with them?


👆You've had problems with this dog in the past being too rough with the goat(s). The purpose of an LGD is to guard and protect the livestock from predators. If interacting means playing with, mouthing on, trying to drag around, cornering them, chasing them, mounting, being food aggressive about goat feed, and/or any other behavior that adds stress to an individual or the herd, that's a hard No.


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## Brooklynn J. (4 mo ago)

Our LGD was allowed to “play” with one of our wethers to “bond”as a puppy, now he’s having issues with playing too rough and drawing blood. Trying to fix. He’s perfectly fine during the day, I think at night when he gets active he starts messing around and playing and doesn’t know when to stop.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Never allow a LGP to play with the goats. Goats are off limits. 
They need to learn respect and distance. 
It will be hard to break and can get out of control quickly as they get older, like in this case. 

The dog will have to be supervised at all times now and corrected even when wanting to get too close to the goats.

You could try a shock collar.


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## Brooklynn J. (4 mo ago)

Absolutely. We have him chained at night when we can’t supervise. We do have a shock collar but we can’t figure out how to get new batteries in it lol. It won’t open.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

goats-n-oats said:


> But isn't his purpose to interact with them?


No. His purpose is to protect them. Don’t confuse the two, as it can get dangerous if you do. He should never play with a goat. He can interact with them in a calm, respectful manner but playing is an absolute no. When my guy was a pup, he once did a play bow toward a turkey and I rained down verbal fire on him for it (he never tried to play with chickens or the goat). I make it absolutely clear the livestock are not playmates and they are not toys. It’s great if they choose to interact but that usually is walking together or napping together, mine will cuddle up together on occasion, but their interactions are mundane and relaxed and mainly they just hang out together. LGDs are wired differently than other dogs and thank goodness they are. That’s what makes them so good with the animals they guard. When they are lounging around in the field with the goats, they are working. And they know it. Even when we don’t see it.


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## Brooklynn J. (4 mo ago)

I wasn’t wanting him to “play” with the goats in the first place, but no one listened to me. I’m not surprised this happened…🙄


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

I guess I was hoping for ideas to keep his mind occupied. He's not controlling his aggression. Yesterday he fought again with my companion dog (who just recovered from a bite wound, from when the third dog was in heat), and today I came back from errands to find a trail of chicken feathers in the barn (luckily the rooster jumped to the safety of his perch). Is it time to hire a professional trainer?


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

toth boer goats said:


> Never allow a LGP to play with the goats. Goats are off limits.
> They need to learn respect and distance.
> It will be hard to break and can get out of control quickly as they get older, like in this case.
> 
> ...


Ok I have one and will try it.
So you all are saying the LGDs cannot lounge in the same space or pasture as the goats? They need to be separated by a fence?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

goats-n-oats said:


> Is it time to hire a professional trainer?


There are different branches or fields of expertise with trainers and primarily their job is to teach the dog owner how to interact with and train their own dogs. What type of training would you be considering for the dog?


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

goats-n-oats said:


> Ok I have one and will try it.
> So you all are saying the LGDs cannot lounge in the same space or pasture as the goats? They need to be separated by a fence?


All mine do is lounge in the same space and pastures as the goats. Yours will need a lot of supervision and correction until it clicks. The first step will be for you to decide what you do and do not want from him. I know it sounds strange but this is usually the hardest part for most people. You have to be consistent. Be clear. It may seem like you’re being harsh at first. And you will be. But that is being kind to the dog in the long run, setting the rules, making it perfectly clear to the dog (no mixed signals), and setting up a better future for him. 

It is fine to give your dog toys to play with and things to occupy his mind. And play time with other dogs to get some energy out is great. If he’s got more energy than the job requires, it’s probably a good thing to do. But I’d spend as much time as possible out with him and the goats and chickens. I’d start over on a leash, then move to a long line, then e collar. Correct for anything other than calm, relaxed behavior around the animals. He doesn’t get to stare at the animals with any intensity, no perking the ears while watching them, all that gets corrected. That’s catching the excitement before it becomes a problem and teaches him that all you want from him is to relax around the animals. Even if the goats run and headbutt each other or the chickens squawk and flap, the only appropriate energy response from him is calm and relaxed. Once he really learns that, it’ll be easier and his mind won’t need to be so occupied. He’ll learn to chill and observe.


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

Here are some pics of him for reference:


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

NigerianNewbie said:


> There are different branches or fields of expertise with trainers and primarily their job is to teach the dog owner how to interact with and train their own dogs. What type of training would you be considering for the dog?


Just enough so I'm not concerned about him injuring other animals or destroying more things, while I'm not looking. My dream would be for him to herd the does to the fenced pasture (600 ft from the barn), but I know Anatolians aren't good off leash.


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

FizzyGoats said:


> All mine do is lounge in the same space and pastures as the goats. Yours will need a lot of supervision and correction until it clicks. The first step will be for you to decide what you do and do not want from him. I know it sounds strange but this is usually the hardest part for most people. You have to be consistent. Be clear. It may seem like you’re being harsh at first. And you will be. But that is being kind to the dog in the long run, setting the rules, making it perfectly clear to the dog (no mixed signals), and setting up a better future for him.
> 
> It is fine to give your dog toys to play with and things to occupy his mind. And play time with other dogs to get some energy out is great. If he’s got more energy than the job requires, it’s probably a good thing to do. But I’d spend as much time as possible out with him and the goats and chickens. I’d start over on a leash, then move to a long line, then e collar. Correct for anything other than calm, relaxed behavior around the animals. He doesn’t get to stare at the animals with any intensity, no perking the ears while watching them, all that gets corrected. That’s catching the excitement before it becomes a problem and teaches him that all you want from him is to relax around the animals. Even if the goats run and headbutt each other or the chickens squawk and flap, the only appropriate energy response from him is calm and relaxed. Once he really learns that, it’ll be easier and his mind won’t need to be so occupied. He’ll learn to chill and observe.


Thank you. This was helpful.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Seems like you need to come up with training that you can do on a daily basis to occupy his mind and wear him out. You might want to hire a professional trainer and do obstacles with him.


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

Livestock guardian dogs are not herd dogs as general rule. My goats will go to my LGD when she barks out a certain way tho, so perhaps she gets them to come in to where she feels they’re safe as night approaches. But she doesn’t herd them like a border collie would or whatever other cow dog breed. Lol
He’s a very beautiful dog. I hope you get him trained up well for you 😊


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

goats-n-oats said:


> My dream would be for him to herd the does to the fenced pasture (600 ft from the barn),


Have you tried getting the goats to follow you to and from the pasture?


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Have you tried getting the goats to follow you to and from the pasture?


Oh yes. With mixed results. The doelings will follow the dams, but the dams are extremely stubborn. Even baited with grain. The only time I've successfully led all 5 does down there was when a (calm) friend led one dam and I led another.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

He is a gorgeous pup. He likely won’t ever herd, it’s a totally different skill set derived from a predatory instinct which has been mostly bred out of LGDs. However, once the goats trust him and see him as a protector, they’ll likely want to stay with him. If my goats are out aways and I want them to come in, I call my dog and the goats come trotting behind him. I don’t know how common this is for others, as my previous experience with LGDs was with horses, cattle, rabbits, and poultry and this is my first time with goats (and I’ve only had goats for a few years). However, if a goat is lagging behind for whatever reason, my dog will choose to stay with the goat rather than come to me (which is what he should do and why they are independent thinkers). If that is the case, I just shake a scoop of hay pellets and the goats come trotting to the barn, with the dog trailing them. I have found it’s very easy to get goats to follow food. So that may be the easiest way for you to lead them from pasture to pasture. ETA: Just saw your above comment. Maybe once they get used to the routine it’ll be easier. I guess I’ve just been a bit spoiled with how easy my goats have been to motivate so far (knock on wood). [mention]Cedarwinds Farm [/mention] has some great tutorials on how she moves her goats. Maybe she’ll stop by and drop a link here for you. If not, I’ll try to find it.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

goats-n-oats said:


> but the dams are extremely stubborn.


Are they balking at the gate of the enclosure when leaving, or are they resisting being led by a collar and leash? Are you trying to get them to pasture on a consistent basis or just every now and then? Do the other goats follow whichever goat holds the position of herd queen?



goats-n-oats said:


> when a (calm) friend led one dam and I led another.


Has there been occasions the trip to the pasture has become chaotic for the goats and the person leading them? Are the goats wanting to stop and eat on the way? Are they scattering? Do you get frustrated with them when the trips to the pasture doesn't go smoothly? Are they turning and going back to the enclosure?


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

My goats come when I whistle them in, but that’s just returning to the pen for some feed. I’m not sure it would work trying to get them to a new location. They’ll come to me if I call them to see if I’ve got orange peels, but won’t always continue to go somewhere new if I’m trying to lead them into a different meadow or something.
Goats are definitely creatures of habit. You’ve got to be consistent with your routine.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with the others.

I am not saying the dog can’t be near the goats. Your dog boo booed and needs to respect a goats space.
They are not allowed to play, chase or be focused on a goat.
Now that the dog, has over stepped his actions. He needs to be supervised closely and corrected. Until the dog is matured in the head.
But now, chickens are added to the mess. So unfortunate. 

A trainer can’t do much unless they have livestock and chickens.
You will have to be the trainer.

And now the dog is fighting with other dogs.
I wonder if something is up health wise causing the dog to lash out?

Get a shock collar on the dog.


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Are they balking at the gate of the enclosure when leaving, or are they resisting being led by a collar and leash? Are you trying to get them to pasture on a consistent basis or just every now and then? Do the other goats follow whichever goat holds the position of herd queen?
> 
> 
> Has there been occasions the trip to the pasture has become chaotic for the goats and the person leading them? Are the goats wanting to stop and eat on the way? Are they scattering? Do you get frustrated with them when the trips to the pasture doesn't go smoothly? Are they turning and going back to the enclosure?


Pretty much everything you mentioned happens, to and from the pasture is a challenge but once they are there they sem to enjoy grazing. Not sure how to make it smoother. 


NigerianNewbie said:


> Are they balking at the gate of the enclosure when leaving, or are they resisting being led by a collar and leash? Are you trying to get them to pasture on a consistent basis or just every now and then? Do the other goats follow whichever goat holds the position of herd queen?
> 
> 
> Has there been occasions the trip to the pasture has become chaotic for the goats and the person leading them? Are the goats wanting to stop and eat on the way? Are they scattering? Do you get frustrated with them when the trips to the pasture doesn't go smoothly? Are they turning and going back to the enclosure?


They all like to leave the barn but only to graze on the lawn and hedges near the barn. Getting them to walk 600 ft to the 1/3 acre enclosed pasture is challenging. Chaotic at times yes - mostly me struggling to pull the lead doe, while the doelings follow. Doelings will follow the two older does, but the does resist walking down there. Once they are in the enclosure they seem to enjoy grazing. Getting them back to the barn is easier except they stop outside the barn to eat all my hedges. Don't usually scatter. Have not been consistent in taking them down there due to ticks, rain, and other unforeseen issues. The pasture BTW doesn't have much in terms of grass, just arrowroot and some leafy shrubs.


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

Hi all, I thought about your comments over the last few days. It occurred to me that the LGD misses his morning walk, which lets him inspect the property and get some time with his master. I had been walking him 1:1 every morning around the property perimeter for 15 minutes consistently for six months, then stopped when the enclosed pasture was completed. Now that it has been raining he has been inside the barn more. Today I walked him our regular route, and he did not get into trouble all day. Not sure if there's a causal relationship.


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

I would agree that that could be a factor in his behavior. Better bundle up and take him for that perimeter check 😉


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

That’s so great that you were able to know your dog well enough to figure out what had changed to contribute to the new, unwanted behavior. I’m sure the walks are good for bonding and a nice change of pace to engage his mind and body in some interesting activity for a while. Let us know how it goes as the walks resume. If that’s the needed fix, wonderful. If not, we’re still here to help however we can. Hopefully now none of his play energy will be focused on the goats and he can be more relaxed just hanging out with them.


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## goats-n-oats (11 mo ago)

FizzyGoats said:


> That’s so great that you were able to know your dog well enough to figure out what had changed to contribute to the new, unwanted behavior. I’m sure the walks are good for bonding and a nice change of pace to engage his mind and body in some interesting activity for a while. Let us know how it goes as the walks resume. If that’s the needed fix, wonderful. If not, we’re still here to help however we can. Hopefully now none of his play energy will be focused on the goats and he can be more relaxed just hanging out with them.


Well, it's been a few weeks of these morning walks, and added a 5 min walk in the evening to check the mailbox and close the gate. He is so earnest and enthusiastic about his walks. No (major) trouble since the last post, fingers crossed. Thanks for all your suggestions and concern.


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

That’s great 😁


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## littleheathens (Apr 27, 2019)

Nice conversation here. I very much feel like we have a similar situation with our LGD pup. He's so big and energetic and his mind needs a lot of activity right now, as much as his body.


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