# Horned NDGs?



## Friggs (May 9, 2013)

Please note this is not an attempt to start a discussion on disbudding.
I'm just curious to find out how many of you NDG'ers out there keep your goats horned. I do keep mine horned, and most time find that they are far and few between. Are there really that few of us?
As I said, not looking for discussion, just being curious.


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

I used too, but learned real quick that horns were not suitable for what I want to do with goats.


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

I have horned and disbudded. I preffer horns. One day I'll be able to show horned animals...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

People who buy from me want to show goats and I don't like dealing with horns.


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## Friggs (May 9, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback.


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## ita2464 (Mar 21, 2013)

I don't show, my goats are just pets and they all have horns. It is really hard to find one with horns when you want to buy them! I love their horns, though there are days I could do without them, like when I'm trying to restrain one and they are unintentionally poking me.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I disbud, as most buyers around here are looking for show stock. I have on and off messed with the idea of keeping my wethers with horns as they cannot be registered. I think I will try keeping one wether with his horns, see how he does and how I feel about it. If they don't prove a problem, I may keep my wethers in the future with their horns ... I already know I will be harvesting many of them, and if someone is looking for a pet, I will either teach the wether VERY good manners, or if they reserve within an alotted time, I will disbud for them.

Still playing around ... lots to be learned, and I feel I should experience it at least once before I make a final judgement on the matter.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

ThreeHavens said:


> I think I will try keeping one wether with his horns, see how he does and how I feel about it. If they don't prove a problem, I may keep my wethers in the future with their horns <snip>
> 
> Still playing around ... lots to be learned, and I feel I should experience it at least once before I make a final judgement on the matter.


My goodness ThreeHavens - that is exactly how I feel. I have been to and fro on the horns or not issue. I really want milk so I have to breed and I don't want to be over run so...

The NDGs I've seen horned look wonderful and in the EU even the dairy goats are often/usually/generally [? it seems to me from the bit of research I've done] left horned which leads me to think this is a North American convention (sorry - not trying to spark controversy and at the same time share pertinent info) and starting to be a UK convention although I suspect the fact that you are required to only have a vet do it under anesthesia is a deterrent to some.

When you look at the dairy breed listing on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_goat_breeds

Most of the European ones have their horns.

I think because I had horned sheep (and while sheep aren't disbudded, the whole horned vs. polled thing was just as big in the Icelandic sheep community, let me assure you), I don't feel intimidated by them at all. In fact, dairy does' horns look pretty close to my Icelandic girls.

All of that being said, I already have 4Hers interested and my boy isn't even here yet! So, the first few will be disbudded at the vet under anesthesia so I can feel ok about it. I think after I have my feet under me I might start shaking things up a little.

I do have to say that after being part of disbudding, I wish that anesthesia would be required for it or analgesia at the very least. Yes, I know that it can have complications too but the animal's discomfort is lessened overall (I can say that having done it both ways). I know there is controversy about vets doing it but there's a level of accountability that I like, there's sedation and a sterile environment which are both bonuses and the baby can have a thorough exam, be neutered (if needed) or de-scented etc all at once. Also - it would be more common to have success if more vets are doing it more often.

Anyway, thanks for starting this thread. It's nice to feel not so alone in the uncertainty. I also wonder if it's one of those self perpetuating things -we all do it so it's the norm so we all do it. I know people will tell you there are increased risks but when I asked my vet and a friend who is a vet at a teaching hospital etc. they all say "maybe" but haven't seen horned related problems specifically (they're both in favour of disbudding by the way but both agree it's likely a convention more than anything).


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

The other thing about this is that fibre and meat breeds keep theirs. I know people will say that it's because of the horn shape etc. and in some cases I can see that but in some no.... If they're so bad about getting caught in fences, shouldn't all horned goats have that problem? My ram got caught once, it was hard on him, admittedly but it was only one animal, one time in a crummy fence situation that was really my fault. And had his horns been straight, like a dairy goat, and not gorgeously spiralled, it wouldn't have happened.


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## Goatnewbie101 (Nov 27, 2012)

Friggs said:


> Please note this is not an attempt to start a discussion on disbudding.
> I'm just curious to find out how many of you NDG'ers out there keep your goats horned. I do keep mine horned, and most time find that they are far and few between. Are there really that few of us?
> As I said, not looking for discussion, just being curious.


I have a three horned Nigerians plus 2 boer girls in my herd of 8 so I guess 5 out of 8 of my goats have horns. 2 were disbursed before I purchased them and the other is naturally polled. I do think the horns are beautiful and I have been " horned" a couple times ( accidents) . I feel it is the breeders choice to have horns or not and to have horned goats be banned from show is kind of taking away the right to choose. I personally like horns over no horns but I feel obligated to disbud to cater to the market. Plus kinda ironically my disbudded nigerian is the herd queen of the pack lol

Sent from my iPhone using GoatSpot


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I had Cashmere goats that I did not disbud (we did disbud the "oops" mix doeling). Their horns are beautiful wide set, nicely curved and the are "flat and blunt" at the end. I did get an "accidental head butt" once, but did not get "hooked" because of the nature of those horns. I had to be very careful when feeding, especially grain. It was like "dueling swords" at times! So, I liked the look of the horns, they made a good "handle". But, I have sold that herd...

I also had a visiting goat that was an Alpine (I think she was a hermaphrodite) doe, and she had horns. EXTREMELY dangerous! They were very stout, strong horns and they were round and SHARP at the ends. This particular goat was a bit aggressive, so may not be the best example, and I may be condemning the whole genre because of her. However, she hooked me once or twice with those horns and drew blood! I have seen other horned goats where the horns were so close (near the head) that I wondered what would happen if you accidentally caught your finger in there (broken finger, surely). 

My Nigerians are all disbudded. We do it ourselves, with a dose of banamine for their comfort. 

We, here at TGS, have seen/heard of many botched disbuds by Vets. This is not a procedure that requires a Vets "expertise". We do not need anyone "requiring" us to see a Vet first...can you imagine? First the price would triple...they would probably insist you bring the kid in for a "pre" disbudding appointment...add $...then a "post" disbudding appointment...add more $. And, of course there is the "touch up" they would require more $ for. 

These kind of regulations are unnecessary and unwanted. Most goat owners are conscientious folks that worry about their ability to handle this procedure, but, with adequate instruction can do it quite effectively, with little stress and discomfort to the kid. It doesn't take a "mental giant" to figure this out. Have we seen bad disbuddings? Sure. Have we seen goats injured or killed because of a mishap with their horns? Sure. We learn, we move on. Let the government worry about keeping us safe...seems they have enough trouble with those things they are supposed to do, why bother them with things we can take care of ourselves?


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Di said:


> It doesn't take a "mental giant" to figure this out.


Thanks very much for your thoughtful reply. I appreciate your patience with the new, goat-berry disturber on the board!

I think it's not so much that I *wish* there was regulation like the UK (I think, maybe I do, I don't know) it's just that in my region and in my previous goat keeping life I see so much that is easier, faster, simpler for the humans and the goats needs come second. That sort of regulation helps to prevent that. I have a friend with a dairy there (in the UK)- she disbuds and says the vet is great - low hassle, low problems and they do everything while the little stinkers are out. Easy peasy. And it's cheap - according to her, she wouldn't have it any other way (and it's not like I couldn't ship her an iron for DIY).

So, it's not that I would make a statement re:regulation because I believe the average person is willfully cruel or anything, but because we're good at not seeing things we don't want to see. The argument I've often read/heard is that they aren't as affected by pain etc. when there's so much research to the contrary. Not everyone is like you with banamine, for example. It's just that same blinded part of the brain that lets us buy steak from the big box store because it's cheaper when the cows that grew it lived in CAFOs, you know? I think most people wouldn't consciously ever make the choice but most of us, when we're just going about our business, make those kinds of choices a lot. I'm absolutely one of them - I can admit that and I'm trying hard not to be.

I had to laugh a bit when you said it doesn't take a mental giant. I used to disbud regularly - although the vet did it and I didn't batt an eye at the whole thing. It was just what I did because I had alpines (life was easier back then, I thought less about these things haha). It was this summer after years and years of livestock experience under my belt that I was part of a horribly botched disbudding fiasco that I started thinking differently about it. All of us involved are absolute softies and reasonably intelligent and looking back, I can't even see how things went the way they did (but they really did). The good thing about it is that it made me look at what I take for granted and how I would do things in kidding next year (big learning there, let me tell you!). Anyway, I would have thought I had the capacity to not botch things but you apparently have to be more of a mental giant than we were lol... Of course I would do it differently now, I learned etc but it wasn't fair to the goats who did suffer. The reason we didn't do the vet was because we were worried about a possible botch (in spite of my previous experience... I know, stupid).

As far as the vet though I think we've had different vet experiences maybe? I do agree that's not 100% certain there wouldn't be scurs etc and that all would be well and it's not with DIY too. My experience of the vets though, in my life, have been positive and at times expensive but never, imo, unwarrantedly so I don't really begrudge paying (as much as it can be painful). Here I can have two boys disbudded for about $40- no pre or post appt and touch ups are free (lol). That's money well spent considering I can do shots, getting a really good weight, etc. while they're under. And my relationship with my vet is such now that I can just call and get answers without a bill in the mail. He knows I know my animals and when it came to the sheep he'd say "if you had Suffolks I'd say this but with Icelandics... what do you think?" It was great - I could talk things through with him and which allowed me to tap into his expertise. I realize that this isn't everyone's experience, but it is mine with only one (notable 'please hold this cat by the ears') exception. FWIW I have always approached vets with this attitude:
"we both have something to offer here. I know my animals, I am the expert in them. You went to vet school and have years of knowledge, experience and the benefits of all of that research. When we put our heads together we can sort this out". It's never failed me yet.

Anyway, I hope this wasn't inflammatory. I thought it might be prudent to explain myself a bit better and I hope I did without stirring it up worse.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

flannelberry said:


> My goodness ThreeHavens - that is exactly how I feel. I have been to and fro on the horns or not issue. I really want milk so I have to breed and I don't want to be over run so...


Mhmm. Hard call, but between searching (in the future) for a polled sire, and MAYBE not disbudding all my future wethers, that will at least cut down on this unpleasant task.



flannelberry said:


> I do have to say that after being part of disbudding, I wish that anesthesia would be required for it or analgesia at the very least. Yes, I know that it can have complications too but the animal's discomfort is lessened overall (I can say that having done it both ways).


The problem with anesthesia is it is often more of a risk than the actual disbudding, and more of a recovery time. I'm hoping to use Banamine in the future, though, and I do use something called "Ow Eze" that seems to make a difference for them. 

I've enjoyed this thread and reading everyone's oppinions :thumb:


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

flannelberry said:


> The other thing about this is that fibre and meat breeds keep theirs. I know people will say that it's because of the horn shape etc. and in some cases I can see that but in some no.... If they're so bad about getting caught in fences, shouldn't all horned goats have that problem? My ram got caught once, it was hard on him, admittedly but it was only one animal, one time in a crummy fence situation that was really my fault. And had his horns been straight, like a dairy goat, and not gorgeously spiralled, it wouldn't have happened.


Fiber breeds keep their horns for cooling reasons (they serve this purpose in all goats). The vascular horns act like air conditioning systems. A goat with a thick coat of mohair could overheat without their horns to help regulate their temperature.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Stacykins said:


> Fiber breeds keep their horns for cooling reasons (they serve this purpose in all goats). The vascular horns act like air conditioning systems. A goat with a thick coat of mohair could overheat without their horns to help regulate their temperature.


I know we tell ourselves that and it doesn't make sense. First of all, there are polled and horned fibre animals (sheep and even some goats). Second, we keep meat goats horned. Why would a meat goat need better thermoregulation than a dairy goat?

The truth of it is that (IMO) we do it for our convenience because we handle them more.

I will also say that anaesthesia doesn't always mean general. I have had goats disbudded with anaesthesia. It was (iirc) a local with a slight sedative and a dissociative - not a general. Very similar to the cocktail humans get for scopes, actually.

**Sorry and apologies. I was just making icing for fairy cakes (yum) and realized that this is getting back into the debate. I'll step off my soapbox.


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

I raise Pygmies and Nigerian mixes. My first generation of does were all horned. I prefer the look and don't like disbudding my poor babies. 

Unfortunately, my goats are house pets and my Pygmy doe is aggressive towards all my female guests because she thinks humans are part of the herd and need ranked in the hierarchy. Her horns are a safety issue in this instance, so I have chosen to disbud her babies. 

If I kept outdoor animals I would probably not disbud.


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