# Herd Evaluation



## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

We finally had time to snap pictures of most of the goats yesterday! I need some opinions and critiques to help figure out who to keep and who to cull. I tried to be consistent in setting up the goats for the pictures, but I'm still not very practiced in it, and the goats have less practice at it than I do haha

Anyway, first up are the "Nubians". All are from unregistered herds of backyard milkers. I like the breed, but not as much as the LaManchas and Nigerians. I don't want to put any big money into a new herd of registered Nubians, so I'm going to work with what I have here and breed up to American. I have 5 does, and I'd like to drop it down to just 3.

Little Bit, 2 year old doe. Easy kidder. She had twins last year as a yearling FF and quadruplets this year. She's dry now, but peaked at just over 8 lbs a day. Horrendous, pendulous udder with practically zero rear attachment. Side view is her yesterday. Rear view is a few months ago when she was still being milked. CAE Negative















Kneepads, 2 year old doe. From the same herd as Little Bit. Also an easy kidder. She had twins last year and triplets this year. Also dry now. She wasn't hand milked this year, just raised her kids and then dried up. CAE Negative








Daisy, born this year out of Kneepads.








Moonspots, yearling FF. Kidded with twins this year, but dry now. CAE Marginal. Will be retested this month.








Luna, born this year out of Moonspots








I'll post the LaManchas next, then the Nigerians will be this weekend or Monday, since we didn't finish getting pictures of them.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I'll post critiques tonight but curious. Was moonspots kid raised on CAE prevention? Or the other kid?


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

LaMancha Herd
Some are Purebreds and some are Recorded Grades. There's no set number I'd like to reduce to, just cull out any that are obviously much lower quality than the average.

Perdita- PB LaMancha. 2 year old FF. CAE Positive. I also missed her kidding by about 20 minutes, so both kids were already up and nursing. I let her go ahead and raise them. I plan to rebreed her and catch the kids this spring and hand rear them with milk from the CAE Negative does. She was kept isolated from a week before kidding until a month after kidding and was not hand milked in order to prevent any spread of CAE.








Doe Kid 1 out of Perdita








Doe Kid 2 out of Perdita








Echo- Grade LaMancha. PB Sire. Unregistered Dam. CAE Positive.















Echo's Doe Kid- bottle fed















More LaManchas will be added to next post.


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

nicolemackenzie said:


> I'll post critiques tonight but curious. Was moonspots kid raised on CAE prevention? Or the other kid?


 No, all the Nubians raised their own kids.

For the LaManchas, Perdita also raised her kids. The rest of the LaMancha kids were removed at birth and bottle fed a mix of pasteurized milk and milk from a CAE negative herd. The adult does will all be tested again this month, and all of this year's kids will be tested as soon as they are old enough.


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

More LaManchas!

Firecracker- yearling FF. Recorded Grade. Half sister to Echo in the previous post(same dam). CAE Negative.





























Firecracker's Doe Kid, Recorded Grade















Feather- yearling FF. Littermate sister to Firecracker. CAE Negative


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

LaMancha Program, but not LaManchas...

Peaches- 5 year old Recorded Grade Toggenburg. CAE Negative. She's a 5 year old, 3rd freshener. Peaked at 18 lbs/day, leveled at 12 lbs/day until about a month and a half ago. I've been milking once a day now, and have skipped a day here and there. She's only producing 6 lbs/day now.
1st picture is her yesterday. 2nd picture is her last year as a 4 year old/2nd freshener. 3rd and 4th pics are her udder a week or two week after she kidded.





























Crazy- yearling FF crossbred. Peaches is her dam. Sire is an unregistered Nubian. CAE Negative.















Penelope- doe kid born this year from Peaches. PB LaMancha sire. She was the runt of triplets, with both her brothers being triple her size at birth.


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

And lastly for the LaManchas, two kids purchased this year

Queen Hera- PB LaMancha doe kid. By far my favorite of all my LaManchas.








May Bell- PB LaMancha doe kid. Just finished up coccidia treatment last week, and she's putting some weight back on, but is still obviously underweight and scruffy.








And that's everyone for the Nubians and LaManchas. Nigerians will be posted later this weekend or next week.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I'm going to start with Nubians because I love them and see how far I get. I also love my grades!

Little bit - sell after get a doe kid that is an improvement over her
Pros
Udder capacity
Strong feet and legs
Straight forelegs
Strong short pasterns
Deep
Body capacity
Strong brisket
CAE negative
Good roman nose

Cons
Low rear udder
Weak suspensory
Udder attachments 
Teats to far apart and point outwards
Weak chine
Short rump
Rump higher than withers ( but is a Nubian trait)

Do you have access to a buck who throws great udders and smooth toplines?

Knee pads SELL
Pros
More level rump than little bits
Strong rear pasterns
Ok rear leg angulation

Cons
Not as clean in the front legs
Beefy neck
Weak chine 

These two don't have any boer in them do they?

Daisy - keep and sell her mum

Improved levelness through the chine, cleaner neck, and nicer forelegs than her dam. She seems stronger/more solid than her dam.

Moonspots Keep 
Pros
Most level over the rump so far
Long rump
Strong in the chine!
Long bodied 
Good rear leg angulation
Good rear pasterns

Cons
Weak/bigger looking joints in front?
Not as good breed character 
Possibly CAE positive. But that's not a deal breaker for me. I think her topline is worth trying to get in your herd.

Hmm so
I'd definitely keep Daisy and I'd keep Luna pending results and how you feel about CAE.

I'd definitely sell Knee pads

I think if keep little bits over Luna because I like moonspots better than Luna and you can try for another daughter that hopefully will have more improvements. Also because you don't have a daughter yet from little bits and I think the strong pasterns are worth keeping around.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I'd sell may bell because she had an issue with parasites whereas it doesn't sound like or look like any of the others did? 

What do they say? 20% of the herd has 80% of the parasites?

I'd encourage breeding for parasite resistance and thriftiness.


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

nicolemackenzie said:


> Do you have access to a buck who throws great udders and smooth toplines?
> 
> These two don't have any boer in them do they?
> 
> ...


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

nicolemackenzie said:


> I'd sell may bell because she had an issue with parasites whereas it doesn't sound like or look like any of the others did?
> 
> What do they say? 20% of the herd has 80% of the parasites?
> 
> I'd encourage breeding for parasite resistance and thriftiness.


She's about 3 months younger than the rest of the kids, and I bought her after the rest of the kids had already gone through their coccidiosis prevention, so she's the only one who never received prevention for it, and she came just at the time that I began mixing adult does I'd dried up into the baby pen. The baby pen is also the newest pen I built and doesn't yet have a hay feeder, so they're eating off the ground in a dry lot. It's just a whole list of things against her staying healthy. I decided to give her a chance to get healthy again and catch up and see how she does.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

SundewFarms said:


> nicolemackenzie said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have access to a buck who throws great udders and smooth toplines?
> ...


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

So, I'm starting with the Nubians, not going to do full critiques cause that would take for.ever.

Yeah 

Will kinda do an overview of each and not get into to too much detail. And I hope I don't sound too harsh 

Okay, so:
Nubians
*
Little Bit:*Good brisket, has body depth, nice long body. Good neck length. Very strong legs. High clean withers. Good blending overall. Really nice feet. Has a dairy wedge.

Horrible topline. Lacks depth in heart girth. Neck could slim down. Steep, short rump. Posty rear legs. Loose shoulders.

Main things I don't link about her is her topline and rump. If those were smoothed out, lengthened and flattened, she'd be a pretty nice girl.

Udder appears to have nice sized teats and fore attachments don't look too bad. As you said, rear is horrid 
​*Kneepads*Nice shoulder, okay depth. Good body length. Rump length is fairly good. So is rump angle. Nice hindquarter. Again, real nice legs and feet. Blending is okay.

Lacks depth, brisket and dairiness. Throat latch is thick, neck is short and thick. Weak chine, poor topline. Lacks length in ears. Lacks dairy wedge.

Main things I don't like about her: lack of depth, poor topline, lack of dairy character.
​*Daisy:*A definite improvement over her dam.

Smooth, good topline, good brisket, good rump length. Good body depth. Nice withers. Good shoulder & hindquarter.

Loose shoulders, neck could be longer. Neck to withers blending could be better. Could have more breed character in face.

LOVE the amount of improvement here!
​*Moonspots:*Definitely your best senior doe.

Good brisket, smooth body. Good topline, long topline. Long rump. Good body length and depth. Nice shoulder and hindquarter. Good legs. Nice angle to rear legs.

Very boxish. Lacks dairy wedge. Neck is short and out of proportion. Rump is a bit steep. Thick throat latch. Withers aren't sharp or clean.
​*Luna:*Real nice shoulders. Good brisket. Good body depth. Nice angle to rear legs. Nice rear legs. Pretty 

Short thick neck. Weak front legs. Short body. Poor topline. Steep, short rump. Thick throat latch.

Moonspots is still better then her, I'm afraid.
​Okay, so overall thoughts on your Nubian herd:
Daisy is my favorite. Definitely keep her. After that is Moonspots. Then Kneepads.

If you need to sell two, I'd sell Luna and Little Bit. I would say those two aren't bringing your herd forward  Daisy definitely is, look at her and Kneepads - I would not think they were related unless you said 

But, on the other hand...do you want a doeling out of Little Bit to keep? One that improves on her?
In that case, keep Little Bit and sell Kneepads since you have a really nice doeling out of Kneepads.
Save​


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Lamanchas:

*Perdita*
Nice face. Strong jaw. High withers. Nice body length. Smoothly blended overall.

Ewe neck. Lacks brisket. Lacks depth in general, more specifically in the rear barrel. Posty. Short rump. Lacks power in rear end. Weak knees. Topline could be better. Lacks the dairy wedge - she's actually going in the opposite direction for that.

Overall, I don't like her. Sorry 
​*Perdita Doe #1:
*So much improvement over her dam!

Good brisket. Clean throat latch. Ewe neck improved from dam (still a bit there) High withers. Sharp withers. Good topline. Strong legs, knees, pasterns. Nice body depth and length. Nice angle to rear legs.

Steep rump. Short rump. Short neck. Neck could be more feminine. Neck could blend better into brisket and withers.

Really like her 
​*Perdita Doe #2:

*Okay neck length. Good body length. Good straight legs. Nice hindquarter. Clean throat latch. Okay rump length.​Pinched muzzle. Loose shoulder. Loose elbows. Lacks depth, especially in rear barrel. Steep rump. Posty rear legs. Poor blending neck to brisket and withers. Lacks brisket. Ewe neck. Looks like she's got a rough coat.

Overall, she's out of proportion. Definitely like her sister better.
​*Echo:
*Good solid body. Fairly good brisket. Good jaw. Good shoulder, hindquarter, body depth and body length. Good strong legs, pasterns. Nicely blended. Smooth overall. Fairly good rump length. Nice barrel. Nice width between hocks.
Udder looks like from the rear, nice floor, medial and arch. Looks to have decent capacity. Teats are a nice size.

Short neck. Thick neck. Low withers - no prominent. Topline slops down toward withers. Steep rump. Posty hind legs. Could have a bit more brisket. 
Teats spread too far apart and pointing out to the side. Could have more width in rear udder.

Overall, she's a nice brood doe. Not stunning, but could give you nice kids.
​*Echo's doe kid:
*Real nice legs, strong & straight. Nice hindquarter. Okay body length and depth. Fairly good blending overall.

Roach back, lacks brisket. Ewe neck. Steep rump. Posty hind legs. Slightly dished face. Short neck. Lacks sharpness in withers. Short jaw. Front legs too far forward. Loose elbows. Poor chest floor.
​*Firecracker:
*Love her rear udder. High, wide, well attached, nice rear attachments, nice floor. Good medial. Nice sized teats.
Nice width between hocks. Udder nicely placed (1/3 in front, 1/3 behind, 1/3 back)
Fairly good brisket, shoulder, body length and depth. Okay withers. Nice rump length. Good angle to rear legs. Nice straight legs. Nice topline ( I like a topline that isn't straight as as string, but not everyone does  )

Bit narrow in hips. I think her udder may (hope someone clarifies this!) stick out a bit too far in rear. Poor for attachments.
Steep rump. Short neck. Thick throat latch. Loose elbows. Could have a bit more brisket.

Definitely like her over her half sister! So I think she's my favorite.
​*Firecracker's doe kid:
*Real nice topline. Nice shoulder, barrel, body depth and length. Nice straight, strong legs. Nice angle to rear legs.

Loose elbows. Lacks brisket. Short neck. Short rump, steep rump. Could have more power in hindquarter. Lacks sharpness in withers.

Nice girl  Love her bored expression!
​*Feather:

*Nice neck, probably the longest one so far. Blends nicely with withers. Okay brisket. Strong, straight legs. Good body length and depth. Good rump length. Smoothly blended overall. Nice angle to rear legs. Good shoulder.
Again, lovely rear udder. Strong medial, good floor and arch. Nicely halved. Good capacity. I like how her rear udder is a bit more tucked in. Okay fore attachments.

Downhill from hips to withers. Lacks sharpness in withers. Loose elbows. Steep rump. Neck still short  
Teats stick out to the sides way too much. Fore attachments could be smoother. Teats could be more on the bottom of udder. They seem to be placed more up the front of it.
​*Queen Hera:
*Definitely the best Lamancha 
Real nice topline, uphill, good length and depth. Good shoulder, brisket and legs. Nice angle to rear legs. Good rump angle. Neck looks good.

Rump is short. Lacks sharpness in brisket. Could use a bit more power in hindquarter. Neck to withers blending could be smoother.
​*May Bell:
*It's best to refrain from commenting too much till she's put weight back on, but she looks like she'll be a real nice doe as well.
​So, overall:

I would sell Perdita and her 2nd doe kid. Keep the first one for a replacement, since she's a lot better then either of them 

For the next group of 'relations', I'd sell Echo. Firecracker and Feather are a lot better then her.

I also like Firecracker's doeling better then Echo's.

Keep:
Perdita's 1st doe kid
If not on a selling spree  Echo's doeling
Firecracker
Firecracker's doeling
Feather

Sell:
Perdita
Perdita's 2nd doe kid
Echo
If you're on a selling spree D) Echo's doeling

So, I hope I don't sound to harsh!  Would love to see the bucks you have/are going to use


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

*Peaches

*Not a stunner but nothing glaringly wrong either  Love her production though! Going by the shaved picture.

Nice neck length, nice topline, nice length and depth. Nice rump length. Good brisket. Nice shoulder and hindquarter. Nice angle to rear legs. Smoothly blended throughout. Nice strong legs and pasterns. Nice width between hocks, nice width in hips. 
Nice udder arch, capacity and rear attachments. Nice udder floor. Okay medial, could be more pronounced.

Bit of a roach back. Lacks sharpness in withers. A bit of a ewe neck. Lacks depth in rear heels. Loose elbows. Steep rump.
Teats are too far out to the side. Fore attachments could be better.
​*Crazy:
*I like her better then her dam 

Real nice brisket. Solid shoulder. Lots of body depth. Smooth topline. Good body length. Strong, straight legs. Uphill. Okay dairy wedge. Nice angle to rear legs. Tight elbows. Nice rump length. Nice width between hocks. Nice width in hips.
Nice udder arch. Nice capacity, and udder floor.

Short neck, thick neck. Lacks sharpness in withers. Rump a bit steep.
Medial seems a bit off center. Teats too far off to the side.

A pretty girl, I like her face!
​*Penelope:
*Nice legs. Good length and depth. Okay topline and rump length.

Short neck. Lacks brisket. Bit of a ewe neck. Weak chine. Steep rump. Posty rear legs.

Crazy is nicer then her 
​Of these 3 I'd sell Penelope. Crazy is nicer, and I think Peaches has the potential to give you a nice Lamancha X kid if bred to a nice buck


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> So, I'm starting with the Nubians, not going to do full critiques cause that would take for.ever.
> 
> Yeah
> 
> ...


Thank you!!! And thank you for taking the time, cause I posted A BUNCH haha! :smile:

Also, you definitely weren't too harsh! I've actually been harsher on them by thinking a lot lately that they're all horrible and I should just sell everything and start all over! But, I think it may be fun to go from random unregistered backyard milkers and breed them up to quality.

The plan at the moment is to sell a couple of the very worst overall now, but most I think will stay until they kid in the spring. Then I will go on a crazy selling spree in order to buy one or two really nice does, and a new LaMancha buck.

As far as sires on the current herd. An unregistered Nubian buck from a backyard milker herd was the sire of Daisy, Luna, and Crazy(the half Togg). Here's the only picture I have of him:








But, after reading through both evals on the Nubians, I've decided to definitely cull Luna and wait for a better doe kid from Moonspots. Daisy will stay. Little Bit and Kneepads will stay until Spring. I'll see if I can get a good doe kid out of each of them from this other buck, then sell them.


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Lamanchas:
> 
> *Perdita* Nice face. Strong jaw. High withers. Nice body length. Smoothly blended overall.
> 
> ...


Haha, I really don't like Perdita either, so I'm glad you agree! She was a cute little thing as a kid. Now...not so much. 

And phew, I did much better on my self-eval of the LaManchas than I did on the Nubians! Nubians confuse me I think. Must be those ears throwing me off. LOL!

Your overall was precisely what I was thinking. I'm going to cull Perdita and Kid #2, as well as Echo. I don't like her kid either, but she'll probably stay for now because I used a buck kid on the herd last year and I'll wait to sell him until I see what kind of udders he's throwing. Though honestly I don't think I like him at all, but it may be his personality that's making me biased. He's a jerk. Much more so than any of the other bucks.

This is Gravedigger, the sire of Perdita's kids(Cera and Persephone, don't ask me which is which though lol, I can't remember), Echo's kid(Sprite), Firecracker's kid(Pistol), and Peaches' kid(Penelope). Pictures were taken this year, March I think, when he was just about a year old. We had a heck of a time finding a somewhat level spot though. First picture, his rear legs are on slightly higher ground. Second picture, his close rear leg is in a hole. :/


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

The Nubian buck has a nice neck, shoulder, girth and barrel, but steep rump and a narrow chest  I can see how he improved the fronts of your does!

Gravedigger isn't actually a bad looking boy, nice and long, flat topline. Good rump length. Nice legs and shoulder. Good width between hocks.

Main problem is, his faults are all the same as your does' faults. Short neck, weak withers, lacks depth in rear barrel, steep rump. Lacks brisket. Pinched muzzle. Slab sided.

He's honestly not going to improve your Lamancha herd 

Sooo, sell him  Get one with a personality you like and who will fix your girls faults. Getting a new buck is a lot easier then switching out does Save
Save​


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Boy, I feel bossy!  Sorry...


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