# Dehorning Info



## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

I read the sticky surgical banding dehorning method and really think it could be something I will utilize. I've been going back and forth on whether or not to allow horns in my herd and I think for everyone's safety and management, horns should be removed.

That being said, which methods are permanent and how do I deal with scurs?

I know disbudding is permanent when done properly. 
I feel like the banding, if done properly, is permanent as well.

A local vet offers the gigli wire procedure, but does that prevent them form coming back entirely?

If I were to do the surgical banding method myself, where can I get a bottle of Lidocaine?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

For banding, I just cut notches in the base of the scur (not deep enough to draw much blood) and then put 2 bands on. 

I just like to disbud early and get it over with. Much easier than figuring out a way to get rid of the horns later.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I agree with Suzanne. If your decision is to have non horned goats, the best thing you can do is to learn how to disbud, and learn to do it well.

Some breeds, like Alpines, need to be done early. Don't put it off or you'll have scurs. Bucklings need to be done well and earlier than doelings, or you'll have scurs. If you have a small breed, like NDs ( I don't know what you have ) then don't fall for getting the really tiny ND tip for your burning iron. IMO, it is too small to do an adequate job, especially for bucklings. And you'll have scurs.


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I would agree. I raise ND and use the tip that came with my iron. I wasn't burning long enough my first year, and had to do some twice. Definitely better to get it right the first time.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

I have NDs and some already have horns which is why I'm asking what's permanent. Going forward I will be disbudding as well as breeding for polled goats. For the time being, I need to get rid of the horns I do already have, and the scurs too if possible.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Banding or surgery are your options for extant horns. Burning or paste (another can of worms) are options for pre-emergence.

Perhaps we are confused as to what you mean by permanent? All methods are permanent if done well. All methods result in scurs if not done well.

Are you saying you think there is a method that is only temporary?

Not critical, just nonplussed, by the language use.

Deer drop antlers and then completely regrow them. Goats don't do that. No temp solution to the horn problem. So, if you don't want horns, best option is to learn to do it early and well. The horns that exist are either permanent, or you are banding, or calling on a vet...


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Well cutting off the horns with a wire saw will shorten them, but some will regrow them (actual horns and not scurs). I assume it's because the base of the horn is still intact, but I consider that temporary.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Please don't make assumptions. I have NOT sawed anything off and do NOT intend to. This is a procedure offered by the local vets under sedation. I was explaining what I consider to be a temporary option because there is horn growth after it. I've also seen banding done in a way that there is not surgical aspect and it doesn't go below the horn ridge and horns continue to grow. I consider that temporary as well. I have not done it. I will not do it. Please don't accuse me of torturing my animals when you don't have the information to back it. I run a rescue and the last thing I want is to cause any of my animals undue discomfort. 

As for the 'haven't thought it through' portion. You're correct, my thought process isn't complete. I'm choosing to evaluate the options at hand with the input of others who have more experience than myself. The right way to do it if you ask me. But clearly, you're not interested in asking me, you'd rather assume that I'm doing the wrong thing. 

If you don't have anything but assumptions to make, please leave my thread.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

The best way to start out is to use disbudding iron when the kids are only a week or so old depending on the breed.
Find someone who will teach you. Males need a little more time.
But since you are dealing with a whole different ball game you can either band them, have a vet saw them down under anesthesia which they don't do well with and the horns will grow back. It has to be done early because that horn base needs to be eliminated.
No, sawing does not involve the horn base.
You are running a rescue? You might be stuck with having horns or scurs after it is done. If it is scurs, they can be trimmed with hoof nippers as needed just like feet; you stop at the pink.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Yes, primarily horse rescue, a few of my goats had a rough start and/or came from poor conditions as well, but many were purchased.

I have people around me that can teach me, I have several that are disbudded and I either assisted or actually performed the procedure. I'm just looking to learn about all the different methods to remove already grown in horns. I do plan to disbud when I start having kids, my buck just arrived today and he's great.

Thank you for the info on the scurs, didn't know how far they could be trimmed. I don't mind the scurs so much as it's just an eye sore. These guys aren't show goats by any means, but I like everyone to look tidy, not like Ed. Ed is the one pictured below and is one of the ones that came from a less than desirable situation (skinny, anemic, lice infested, copper deficient, and worm loaded). He's about 6 months old in the picture (I think) and that's about a month after I got him.









I didn't think the sawing did, the last breeder I spoke with had issues with full horns coming back after sawing or banding with no base involvement. I was just double checking to make sure my inferred reasoning behind the failed dehorning was correct.


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## K Gemmill (Aug 22, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Does this process mean sawing into the bloody core?
> 
> If so, and it is just going to heal and regrow, I don't think we as a community are willing to do that. That is just Gawdawfull! Why ask us about a useless torture process? We aren't going to cheer you on.
> 
> ...





LSRR said:


> Yes, primarily horse rescue, a few of my goats had a rough start and/or came from poor conditions as well, but many were purchased.
> 
> I have people around me that can teach me, I have several that are disbudded and I either assisted or actually performed the procedure. I'm just looking to learn about all the different methods to remove already grown in horns. I do plan to disbud when I start having kids, my buck just arrived today and he's great.
> 
> ...


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## K Gemmill (Aug 22, 2017)

What is scure ?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Disbud the kids for sure. 

For the adults, I would go with the banding method. I've banded some and horns didn't grow back.


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## jbrekken1 (Oct 2, 2017)

LSRR you were perfectly clear on what you were asking and also in follow up posts. I think the confusion is coming from somewhere else. Sounds like banding is your best option btw.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

LSRR said:


> Please don't make assumptions. I have NOT sawed anything off and do NOT intend to. This is a procedure offered by the local vets under sedation. I was explaining what I consider to be a temporary option because there is horn growth after it. I've also seen banding done in a way that there is not surgical aspect and it doesn't go below the horn ridge and horns continue to grow. I consider that temporary as well. I have not done it. I will not do it. Please don't accuse me of torturing my animals when you don't have the information to back it. I run a rescue and the last thing I want is to cause any of my animals undue discomfort.
> 
> As for the 'haven't thought it through' portion. You're correct, my thought process isn't complete. I'm choosing to evaluate the options at hand with the input of others who have more experience than myself. The right way to do it if you ask me. But clearly, you're not interested in asking me, you'd rather assume that I'm doing the wrong thing.
> 
> If you don't have anything but assumptions to make, please leave my thread.


I'm very sorry for that mean and completely unfair comment. You said or did nothing to deserve that.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

K Gemmill said:


> What is scure ?


A scur is a partial horn. Especially on bucks, Saanen bucks especially, when you disbud with the hot dis budding iron, if you don't kill all the horn growth area, you can get some malformed horns, called scurs. But, you have to be careful not to leave the disbudder on too long or you can cause brain damage and even death in the kid.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I do not recommend banding unless the alternative is putting the goat down. While it is permanent if done right, it is also a long, painful process for the goat and tends to make them skittish and head shy. Some of them may get beat up pretty bad by the other goats since they will be unable to hit back while their horns are slowly coming away. I personally consider banding to be a fairly extreme measure reserved for goats that are actively posing a danger to people and/or other goats. Surgical horn removal is quicker but also very unpleasant for the goat and requires a lot of follow-up care to prevent sinus infection. 

Since you run a rescue operation, my suggestion would be to rehome the goats to places where horns are accommodated. Some people (myself included) keep goats with horns and are set up to deal with them. This would probably be the kindest option for the goats.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

mariarose said:


> I'm very sorry for that mean and completely unfair comment. You said or did nothing to deserve that.


Thank you for your apology.



Damfino said:


> I do not recommend banding unless the alternative is putting the goat down. While it is permanent if done right, it is also a long, painful process for the goat and tends to make them skittish and head shy. Some of them may get beat up pretty bad by the other goats since they will be unable to hit back while their horns are slowly coming away. I personally consider banding to be a fairly extreme measure reserved for goats that are actively posing a danger to people and/or other goats. Surgical horn removal is quicker but also very unpleasant for the goat and requires a lot of follow-up care to prevent sinus infection.
> 
> Since you run a rescue operation, my suggestion would be to rehome the goats to places where horns are accommodated. Some people (myself included) keep goats with horns and are set up to deal with them. This would probably be the kindest option for the goats.


The goats are here for a purpose and I do intend to keep them around. There are a lot of risks for them having horns and I have the accommodations to separate them from the others while their horns are sore. The market in this area for unregistered horned dwarf goats is little to none, the only people who are looking in to them are going to slaughter them (yes, I've asked).

The aftercare for the surgical method as well as the recovery time are reasons I'm not looking more heavily in to that method, cost being the other. I can do the aftercare, but from what I understand, the recovery time and discomforts of the banding and surgical removal are about the same and for that, I would rather do the banding and that is going to decrease the aftercare significantly. I'm not unwilling to look at other options, but I don't want them being eaten and I do want to keep them here, but for their own safety and for the safety of the other goats, they can't have horns.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I have never had a goat act in pain after banding, but I've never done full horns before, just large scurs.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

What breed were you working on?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Alpine and Nigerian


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Discomfort/pain will last much longer with banding than with surgery. Surgery pain is higher in the beginning but seems to go away within a couple of days. Aftercare, of course, must continue for 2-3 weeks because of the large wound and the open hole into the sinus. It's not pleasant, and of course it's also expensive as you pointed out.

Banding, on the other hand, causes less initial pain but takes weeks and can make the goat miserable all along the process. Banding scurs is different because scurs have relatively little blood supply and few if any intact nerve endings. I've never met a banded goat that wasn't head shy and distrustful for a long time afterwards. I believe it's both painful and psychologically traumatic for the animal, which is why I don't think it should be done unless the goat is already causing problems that cannot be mitigated in other ways. There is also aftercare to be considered with banding. Flies can lay eggs inside the horn and sinus cavity while it is coming away, and it's not uncommon for a goat to dislodge a partially banded horn before it is ready to come off. This is bloody and painful for the goat and may require similar care to a surgically removed horn if the sinus cavity is exposed.

Each person has their own idea of what's acceptable. Banding horns crosses the line for me, but that's a decision you have to make for yourself. Make sure your goats get their tetanus shots before doing it. You may also want to wait until winter to eliminate fly problems. There is also less risk of infection, and cold weather can help combat inflammation. If you band your goats' horns, I hope it goes smoothly and is successful. You might also want to take a look at this thread and ask for a follow-up: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/horn-banding-pain-question.193876/


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

I do need to wait a couple months before banding as some are still too small for the procedure, but too big for the iron. Everyone is up to date on all of their shots, including tetanus. That was a requirement as soon as everyone arrived on property  I'm a bit of a stickler for that sort of thing. I try not to do any sort of medical procedure when it's hot out, makes the goatlings miserable, and flies are everywhere and almost guaranteed infection with all those flies. Thank you for the link and the insight on pain level and duration, much appreciated.

Suzanne_Tyler - Thank you. What was your Lidocaine dosage for the dwarves? I'm struggling to find that info.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

What lol
I've never done the whole surgery deal. I just cut small notches in scurs near the base, not large enough to draw much blood, and put 2 bands on. End procedure, goat runs off like nothing happened


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

The process I'm looking at requires cutting flesh just below the horn ridge. I'm sure scurs can be removed with no local anesthetics, but a full/healthy horn surely would have to be blocked for the procedure.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Here's another question.

Would I be able to use a calf disbudder if the horns are still tiny, or would that be too big for a tiny head? One of my 5 month old kids has itty bitty horns still, they're just too big for the disbudder I have access to.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Banding and sawing are pretty much the same thing if done right (as far down as possible). Banding takes a month or more for the horn to fall off. Sawing is instant and requires burning after words. More or less you are removing the horns so you can dis bud the goat. If you dont go low enough with the bands, you will have to burn the nubs after the horns fall off.

Having witnessed every form of horn removal, ironically, dis budding with an iron seems to be the the kindest way to go. Yes, burning is extremely painful. I can tell you from experience, burns are one of the worse pains to endure. But they dont last long. A deep burn kills the nerve ends. So within just a couple of hours, a burn can be completely pain free. Compare that to banding which can put the goat into major pain for 12-24 hours with bad lingering pain for another 24+ hours. Then until the horns fall off, the horns are tender. Causing pain when bumped. Granted, smacking the burnt horn buds also results in a good amount of pain as well. Having the horns surgically removed (sawing off and burning) maybe the least painful as the goat is put under but it can also be the most troublesome. A hole is often left down into the sinus cavity that can take server weeks to close together. You have to watch and tend to the hole everyday until it does to help prevent infection.

So each method has its pros and cons. The cheapest and easiest way for a novice would be to band them. Burning for the experienced is the quickest way to go through a bunch of kids at once. Surgically should be held in reserve for larger or older goats Where banding or burning wouldnt work.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

LSRR said:


> Here's another question.
> 
> Would I be able to use a calf disbudder if the horns are still tiny, or would that be too big for a tiny head? One of my 5 month old kids has itty bitty horns still, they're just too big for the disbudder I have access to.


Calf iron can be used no problem. If for some reason we dont get an animal dis budded in time with the dis budding iron, we will use the calf iron. To use the calf iron you not only have to go deep enough but you also need to go deep enough around the horn bud as well.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Thank you. 

I will see if I can track down a calf one for the little ones who need to be done. The main reason I'm asking about the banding is because I've got some that are way too big for an iron, but not too big for banding. When they start kidding, I will be disbudding all of the kids myself. I didn't have the option with the current herd as I've only had the majority of them for a couple of months. The 4 I've had for a while are all either polled or disbudded.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Go with the x50 for a disbudding iron. It's a calf iron and you get smaller attachments for the little buds.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Do you have a link to it?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/x-50a-electric-dehorner


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Thank you, what size tip is best for dwarf kids? Both bucklings and doelings?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

The 1/2 inch one.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Great, thank you!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Did you mean scours ? I have a great way to cure kids (baby goats) with scours,

1 cup butter milk, 1 raw egg, 1teaspoon Cocoa, 1/4 teaspoon baking soda. 

Mix all the ingredients into a blender, or shake well in a jar bottle feed 1/4 of the mixture every 2 to 3 hours DONT FEED MILK UNTIL SCOURS STOP!!!!!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No. We are talking about scurs which happen when a disbudding didn't work right.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> Did you mean scours ? I have a great way to cure kids (baby goats) with scours,
> 
> 1 cup butter milk, 1 raw egg, 1teaspoon Cocoa, 1/4 teaspoon baking soda.
> 
> Mix all the ingredients into a blender, or shake well in a jar bottle feed 1/4 of the mixture every 2 to 3 hours DONT FEED MILK UNTIL SCOURS STOP!!!!!


No, horns and scurs. Nothing butt related...


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Ok well thanks for telling me what scurs are!!


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## Calfee Farms (Oct 10, 2017)

LSRR said:


> I have NDs and some already have horns which is why I'm asking what's permanent. Going forward I will be disbudding as well as breeding for polled goats. For the time being, I need to get rid of the horns I do already have, and the scurs too if possible.


There's a few good videos on YouTube showing the horn banding method. I have used the horn banding method with great success the thing to remember with horn banding is to shave the hair at the base of their horns, make sure the bands are below the the horn on the skin where the skin meets the horn, and then use strong duct tape to help hold the bands in place and be patient.
! If the horn is done right, it should start to fall off in 2 weeks but do not pull off the horn or this can cause the goat to bleed to death. Make sure you give the goat a tetanus vaccination. We always used to wait until cold weather to dehorn to keep down on flies and infection.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Calfee Farms said:


> There's a few good videos on YouTube showing the horn banding method. I have used the horn banding method with great success the thing to remember with horn banding is to shave the hair at the base of their horns, make sure the bands are below the the horn on the skin where the skin meets the horn, and then use strong duct tape to help hold the bands in place and be patient.
> ! If the horn is done right, it should start to fall off in 2 weeks but do not pull off the horn or this can cause the goat to bleed to death. Make sure you give the goat a tetanus vaccination. We always used to wait until cold weather to dehorn to keep down on flies and infection.


 And is that with the surgical incision or without?


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

I had to have horns taken off a doe - vet cut them off with a wire saw (sedated first) and then burned the area. Pulled the blood vein I think. It was a long recovery and I kept her confined with a couple of little ones for several months. Her head healed fine and there is no regrowth. They must be burned after cutting I guess. It is a hard surgery for them and very stressful. Her head was treated with neosporum mixed with DMSO and a spray the vet recommended daily. And bandaged every day for a few weeks. Also on an antibiotic. My vet does a good job on anything my goats need -he hates that job though.


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## Calfee Farms (Oct 10, 2017)

LSRR said:


> And is that with the surgical incision or without?


We did without the surgical incision.


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## Calfee Farms (Oct 10, 2017)

Dehorning is not too pleasant at any stage of a farm animal's life, but this is a necessary management practice to help prevent injury to other animals as well as humans.


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## Tammy Katz (Oct 10, 2017)

Has anyone used the clover oil treatment for debudding?


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Calfee Farms said:


> We did without the surgical incision.


 Worked well?


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## Tammy Katz (Oct 10, 2017)

Yes I read were the clover is I injected parallel to the skull under the skin. Did it work well for you?


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Tammy Katz said:


> Yes I read were the clover is I injected parallel to the skull under the skin. Did it work well for you?


I haven't heard of that method. I was responding to Calfee Farms about the non-surgical banding method.


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## Tammy Katz (Oct 10, 2017)

Oh sorry. I was Hoping some might have heard and tried the clover method. I read a study that was done on it and they had a 100 percent positive results liked it because it seam so much less evasive to the goats.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

It's clove oil, not clover (but maybe you're just getting an auto-correct). I read that study too, but it looked tricky to get it right. I'd personally be nervous about injecting a caustic substance like clove oil. With topicals you can wipe it off if the goat becomes distressed or if you accidentally get it in the wrong spot, but you can't take back injections.


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## Tammy Katz (Oct 10, 2017)

Do they make a topical dehorning med. I just hate the other alternatives. And yes that was a out correct on my phone.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Calfee Farms said:


> Dehorning is not too pleasant at any stage of a farm animal's life, but this is a necessary management practice to help prevent injury to other animals as well as humans.


Well, I wouldn't call it necessary. Whether or not you can safety keep a horned herd depends largely on your operation and management practices. Many people who raise goats keep horns without problems. For some goats, horns are part of the breed standard and must be kept on for that reason. My herd seems to do fine with horns and the only reason I disbud the girls is because of ADGA show regulations and what the market demands for dairy does. My boys keep their horns because they will never be shown and the packgoat market generally prefers horns.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Tammy Katz said:


> Do they make a topical dehorning med. I just hate the other alternatives. And yes that was a out correct on my phone.


Yes, there are a couple of topical dehorning pastes on the market. Dr. Naylor's and Dr. Larson's are the ones most commonly used. They are painful for the goat just like any other method, but you can use banamine to lessen the pain with either paste or a hot iron. I have a friend who is a vet who not only uses banamine but also puts our kids under before using the hot iron. Last year our iron pooped out so we tried the paste. The kid screamed and struggled so I wiped it off right away. I tried again a few days later but gave an injection of banamine first to dull the pain. With banamine it was acceptable. The kids cried a little but acted more irritated and impatient than distressed. The important thing with paste is to cover it with tape so it can't smear onto an ear or an eye or another goat. We covered the paste with tape and then held onto the kids for half an hour so they couldn't try to scratch it off.


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## Tammy Katz (Oct 10, 2017)

I caught 2 goats that have horns, and I have not had any problems. One of the was the doe that I needed to milk, because became engorged after she seemed get kids and she continued making milk when I got her home. So I may not worry about it. I am a very hands on person with all my animals, so I think they may just keep them.


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## Deborah Haney (Jul 11, 2017)

While I have not tried the clove oil method, I plan to once we get kids. It does look tricky because the study was not very specific as to how they injected and other people who have tried it tend to have 100% success or 100% failure. I think this is because of technique variation. Clove oil is also a natural anaesthetic. The problem is that, like iron disbudding, it only works on kids. The oil has to get all around the bud but can't do that with a full horn because the cells that are actually doing the growing and need to be killed are protected. I'm having my vet contact the people who conducted the study to get more specific injection info.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

Just read through THIS study and it looks as if they're injecting it directly in to the bud. I might give this a shot in March when my first kids are due to be born. It sounds like a better alternative if it works.


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## Tammy Katz (Oct 10, 2017)

Please keep informed of what your get says. I think it be a great alternative to they other options we have now.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

I am vey interested to see some first hand accounts of people using the clove oil method. Right now I am quite firmly in the horned goat camp, but know that could change. I like the sound of this more than most, if it really works. My biggest concern would be what Damfino mentioned about the inability to "take it back" once you have given the injection.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Here is an interesting read on it:

https://www.weedemandreap.com/removing-goat-horns-naturally-clove-oil/


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

That was a really good read, thank you Suzanne_Tyler. I really am interested in trying this method on my first set of kids. I'm not currently breeding for show, just for pets and milk, so I don't need perfect results the first time around. I would love for this to work.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

If you do end up trying it, let us know how it goes


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## Tammy Katz (Oct 10, 2017)

I will most definitely keep you up dated. My babies are not due until mid to end of January.


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## LSRR (Aug 28, 2017)

I will as well!


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