# Goat has tattoo, but no papers. Can I register her through ADGA?



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

I purchased a purebred Nubian girl. I had the opportunity to purchase her with papers, and I (stupidly) did not. The breeder assured me that I could contact them later if I changed my mind and wanted to purchase the paperwork.

Yesterday, I purchased a registered Nubian buck. Suddenly, I'm wishing I had papers for my doe! 

I tried contacting the breeder, but they weren't nice people and won't return my call or email.

A friend of mind suggested that if I could read her tattoos (I can see she has them), that I could call the ADGA and possibly register her?

Is that true? It seems like I should not be able to do that since it would allow people to steal purebred animals and then register them? Maybe that isn't likely since a breeder would report stolen animals to ADGA (I assume).

I tried finding info about this on the ADGA website and failed.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

You would need the breeder to sign off on the papers. If she's tattooed they probably sent the papers in and you could find out her pedigree, but you can't transfer her without their help.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Yeah, get her tattoo numbers and letters from each ear, and call ADGA. Tell you you had her papers but lost them (or they burned , or something) before you could send them in. Tell them the full name of the people she came from, their address, etc. They should send you a duplicate paper transferred into your name.

A thief will not go through the trouble to do that, because someone with a stolen goat is going to have animal control looking for said goat and checking tattoos. I've seen a lot of animals run through auctions with ears cut off, horses with lips cut off, gnarly stuff. They used to cut dog ears off all the time, which is why they now tattoo their legs.
They wouldn't call a registry for papers because then the actual owner could call the registry and ask if it has been transferred to a different person, if so, gotcha!


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would think ADGA would contact the breeder for a signature. You can call them and ask.


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

Is there a way to at least see her pedigree if all I have is the tattoo to go by? I believe her ears are JC and D3. I looked on the website and didn't see an option to search by tattoo.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Do you know her full name?


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

Nope. I don't. I only have the tattoos, their names, and know they called her "Sweet Pea".


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

ADGA should be able to look her up by the tattoo if you call them. Or if you know the name of where you got her I can try searching by herd name. JC is their herd prefix and D03 means she was the 3rd kid born in 2013, but there's no way to search it online. I did find a 2013 doe named JC DAIRY GOATS COW GIRL. There are a number of does with Sweet Pea in their name.


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

I think she is this doe: http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N001646071

I remember the breeder saying that the sire had SAADA lines on the father's side, and Win-Crest on the dam's side. Also, the date of birth is about right. Unfortunately, this is just a bunch of names. With no real info. Even Googling the herd name brings up no information.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I WOULD NOT try and get those papers without the owner signing off. With abga they send a paper every year with every goat I have listed and asks if they died sold with papers or sold without. I see trouble if you go that way. I would as suggested call them and ask if they could send a email or what not out asking for them. You could even call them yourself and offer like $10 for the papers. Someone I know what in your shoes and the last owner was willing to hand the papers over for $20.....people are greedy 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Yeah, get her tattoo numbers and letters from each ear, and call ADGA. Tell you you had her papers but lost them (or they burned , or something) before you could send them in. Tell them the full name of the people she came from, their address, etc. They should send you a duplicate paper transferred into your name.


That's a good way to get yourself removed from the association. You can't just make up a lie that you were sold an ADGA registered goat with papers when you were not. And if the previous owners were to ever find out, they can file a report with ADGA and you can get in serious trouble with the registry. I would NEVER recommend doing this. That is totally unethical.

If you want the papers, you have to go to the previous owner and try to purchase them. If all else fails, you should be able to register the doe "native on appearance," however, I don't know a whole lot about that.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Saada is very well known, but I don't recognize the bloodlines on the dam side. Here's a pic of the sire:


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

Thank you for the photo. I wish the pedigrees contained photos like this. Or even listed colors and owner's names.


----------



## WinsomeFarmstead (Mar 18, 2014)

I'd just call ADGA and tell them what's going on.. Hopefully they will work something out with you, either help you contact the previous owners or give you some other options to get her registered.. That's what they're there for!


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

WinsomeFarmstead said:


> I'd just call ADGA and tell them what's going on.. Hopefully they will work something out with you, either help you contact the previous owners or give you some other options to get her registered.. That's what they're there for!


Thanks, that's what I plan on doing. I am nervous about all this because they weren't terribly friendly. They were mad at me when we didn't pay extra for the papers to begin with. I would happily pay the extra 25.00 now, though. I just don't want to harass them. Hoping ADGA will help somehow.


----------



## christinajh (Jan 24, 2013)

If you didn't pay for a registered goat, then you really can't ethically try to get her papers after the fact. I'd try to offer to pay the person you bought her from the difference to get the papers.


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

christinajh said:


> If you didn't pay for a registered goat, then you really can't ethically try to get her papers after the fact. I'd try to offer to pay the person you bought her from the difference to get the papers.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


I won't try anything unethical. I would happily pay the difference. I am just hoping maybe there is something the ADGA can do to help me get in contact with them. If that doesn't work, I'll try to get NoA papers.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Wripley said:


> Thank you for the photo. I wish the pedigrees contained photos like this. Or even listed colors and owner's names.


Google image the names and or reg. numbers sometimes you get lucky and find pics of them especially if they are more popular goats 

Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

ADGA won't help you. They have a privacy policy and will not give out the names of owners or tell you if that is her. The only thing they will do is send your info to the listed owner and give them the option of contacting you. If you bought her as a kid, there is a very high chance she was never registered ( they would have given you an application to register her) if that is the case the only way to get the papers would be to go through them. Even if you don't have papers her kids sired by your papered buck can be registered 50%.


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The sellling of a registered goat WITHOUT papers is usually done at a lower price. This way you can not use the animal, breed it, sell and make money off of that animal. OR maybe your animals and or breeding program are not up to the other breeders standard. What ever the case, because you did not pay the extra price for the papers, you are not allowed to register the animal a a pure blood OR American animal. ADGA will not help you in this matter as it is not there right to OR their want to help you. Only the registration holder can help you. Trying to do any of the suggested sneaky run arounds is a very bad idea. Not only will it get you in trouble with ADGA but all registration and pedigree info is kept online and is easily tracked.

So you can do one of two things to get the doe registered. The first being to register her as an Experimental and then breed up to American status OR keep trying to contact the registration holder.


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

TDG-Farms said:


> The sellling of a registered goat WITHOUT papers is usually done at a lower price. This way you can not use the animal, breed it, sell and make money off of that animal. OR maybe your animals and or breeding program are not up to the other breeders standard. What ever the case, because you did not pay the extra price for the papers, you are not allowed to register the animal a a pure blood OR American animal. ADGA will not help you in this matter as it is not there right to OR their want to help you. Only the registration holder can help you. Trying to do any of the suggested sneaky run arounds is a very bad idea. Not only will it get you in trouble with ADGA but all registration and pedigree info is kept online and is easily tracked.
> 
> So you can do one of two things to get the doe registered. The first being to register her as an Experimental and then breed up to American status OR keep trying to contact the registration holder.


I want to clarify that I was never inquiring about a work-around. I wasn't looking to do anything unethical. I just wondered if it was possible to register the goat. I am trying to decide if I should send a letter to the breeders with my request and lots of contact info, or ask the ADGA if they can contact the owners for me. That is the only thing I plan on doing.
b
For the record, I don't think the owners did anything wrong. They gave me exactly what I paid for. They did say I could come back later to purchase the papers if I wished to and I'd really like to try for them! They haven't called or emailed me back. I have reason to believe they may not have gotten my e-mails. So maybe ADGA has updated info and can request the forms on my behalf.


----------



## christinajh (Jan 24, 2013)

It wouldn't hurt to ask adga to give the breeder your contact information. Or if you are a member you can look in the book they send out to members and perhaps they are in there. Worst case get her papered as NOA. Good luck


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Gee, now you have me worrying about the doeling I bought with an option to register later if I choose :/ She's 50% ABGA and I breed Kikos so I don't expect to need them unless I want to sell her.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Honestly, if you have a chance to register, then just do it. I have never heard anyone say, "I wish I didn't register my goats." It is always "I wish I would have registered my goats."

Things happen even with the best of intentions. Spend the money and get the papers when you buy the goat.


----------



## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

Unless you plan to show her NOA papers will be pointless. With ADGA they don't recognize NOA goats as any percentage,like the Boers do. The kids by a registered buck would still be 50%. If you want to show her you can NOA her but she would have to be retattooed with your herd tattoos and year letter/number since the tattoos she already has go with a different herd and a goat that is already registered. Doing that could get tricky at a show if the judge sees the other tattoos. I would keep trying to contact the people. If they show at all, it is show season and they may just be busy.


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Wasn't trying to suggest you were looking to go around the rules, just advising not to follow some of the suggestions people where making.


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

Update!

The breeder responded immediately to the letter I mailed them (yay!), but they said that since I didn't want the papers when I bought her, they won't sell them to me now. I had my shot, apparently. I offered her 25.00 for them and I honestly don't understand why they aren't interested in letting me have them. They said it's not personal, but I had my chance and didn't take it.

The husband said he'd talk to his wife about it one more time to make sure she wasn't going to change her mind.

So I'm sad and a little confused. Why would a breeder do that? Just not worth the trouble?


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

But didn't they say you could came back and buy them later if you so chose to?


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

They did! But the wife has apparently changed her mind. She said if I didn't care about having them then, then I don't get them now. I feel like she's looking for a fight which I am not willing to engage in. 

I just don't understand her motive, really. Did I offer too little? I paid 125.00 for the doe, and they said if I paid 150.00 they'd give me papers and a breeding. So I figured offering 25.00 for just the papers would be fair. I hope I didn't offend them. I don't want to burn bridges with anyone.


----------



## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

There's no telling why the breeder doesn't want to sell the papers. Could be the doe isn't up to the standard she wants in her name. Hard to say. Only the breeder knows her own rational.

If you bought it without papers then that's sadly how it is. Maybe the breeder just wants to stick with the deal. Just a hard lesson learned. Always get the papers. 

Seems like you offered a decent amount. They said they wanted 150 reg so that should have been enough..



Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## christinajh (Jan 24, 2013)

I personally wouldn't sell a registered goat for just $25 over the non-registered price, but that is me. Definitely would not be worth the trouble for me to do it, so maybe prices are higher now???? What you paid is a very fair price for a non-papered goat, and I would expect to pay at least $100 or more over that for a papered goat.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Ah.. Sorry she seemed to change her mind.. Hopefully it will get worked out


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

Yeah, I'll move on. I was really nice to them. After all, I did get what I paid for. I am just taken aback by the vehement response. 

When I bought the doe, I dealt with the husband. He's much nicer than his wife. He was the one who set the price and told me I could come back later for a breeding if I purchased the papers. Once I got to their place, the wife turned to the husband and said "How much are we selling this doe for?". He told her and she got really mad. We handed her the money and she all but kicked us off the property. She wouldn't give us time to put a collar or lead on the doe, kicked us out of the barn, and snarled at her husband to follow us to make sure we didn't lose the doe on our way to the car.

My theory (which will remain unproven!) is that she expected to get more for the goat, and simply doesn't want the hassle now. 

Oh well. I just wanted to make sure I didn't owe them an apology for offering a paltry amount of money for the papers. I also don't want to offer more than they're worth. I love the goat hobby, but I don't have endless bags of money to throw at it. =)


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Maybe ask them what price they feel would be reasonable, and if they give you one just decide whether or not it's worth it to you. Around here it seems to be about $50 more to get papers on a meat goat (Boer or Kiko) and maybe $100 for dairies.


----------



## polopony (Jun 24, 2011)

All you can do at this point is ask nicely what would it cost to get papers on this doe. Explain your situation and see if they are willing to work with you. If the breeder won't set a price, then you are out of options. At least you learned a lesson. You won't make the same mistake again. She could be a nice family milker and you can find a registered doe if that is the direction you want to go.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

This goes back to the wife being bitter about the amount of money she got for the goat. I really don't think she will come around. It would be better to move on. Sounds like you ended up with a fantastic price. Just chalk it up to lesson learned. Next time there are papers, just pay the money and get them right away.


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Id agree with Karen. Id guess the husband didnt charge the amount the wife would and now the wife wont deal. I like the idea of asking how much it would take. That would give the wife a chance to get what see things is a fair price.


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

As an update, I took your advice and asked the breeder what she thought a fair price for the papers would be. I liked that it gave us an opportunity to set things right.

Unfortunately, she wasn't interested in any money. Not only that, she wouldn't answer any questions about my goat's background. Not what her registered name "was" or what her parent's names were. Nothing. 

I've had quite a few people tell me the is an outstanding little doe and worth NOA-ing for show and breeding back up to American. On the plus side, I get to name her whatever I want. =)


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

That's too bad..
But I think NOA would be a good plan


----------



## Emzi00 (May 3, 2013)

That's too bad. But if I'm remembering correctly, I believe I saw your doe on Facebook, she's very nice and definitely worth registering NOA.


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Bummer. That's weird she wouldn't take some cash for the papers. Sounds like maybe the husband sold the goat way below price and that upset the wife so now she's just being stubborn about letting you have the papers.

Was this doe ADGA registered? If so, you might be able to find her on ADGA's website if you do a little digging. It won't help get you the papers, but it will give you some insight on the doe's background.


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

I have tried to do some digging, but I don't know the herd name she is registered under.


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

If you want...PM me the breeder's name, I have a few ADGA directories and can try to find out.


----------



## Wripley (Mar 28, 2014)

KW Farms said:


> If you want...PM me the breeder's name, I have a few ADGA directories and can try to find out.


PM'd you, thank-you for your help! Someone found their ADGA number, but we don't know what their herdname is.


----------



## polopony (Jun 24, 2011)

Instead of offering a dollar figure, ask what it would cost for her papers. They will tell you the price if they are willing. If not, it is a lesson learned. You could always sell her to a dairy since papers aren't so critical to them.


----------

