# Good news, bad news *again*



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I'm pretty frustrated right now. LD kidded. Good news, I have one nice thick healthy buck kid to show for it. Bad news, there was a nice doe kid in there too who was born dead. As I mentioned this morning, LD was more vocal than usual. Did not eat this afternoon. Started wandering off. Put her in the kidding stall and she had the first one a couple of hours later. Spit him right out. I was there and cleaned off the nose etc. He seemed fine. It seemed quite unlikely there would only be one, but LD didn't seem to still be in labor. Time kind of flew by watching the new one and I realized it had been 40 minutes and LD still hadn't even tried to have another one. I decided I better check her out and go in. I felt another baby. It was not in the birth canal. I went in and pulled it out and it never took a breath. Looked perfect. Just not alive. Here is the part that has me weirded out. LD is the fourth doe I have had kid and I lost one kid in 3 out of the 4. Bella kidded without me and I found one nice live one and one dead one. Rose kidded two live ones, but she didn't deliver the second one for 50 minutes. Blanch did the same as LD. Spit one out and never even thought about having another. Next day horror show. Vet bill. Dead baby still inside. Saved Blanch though. Maybe I should count my blessings I learned my lesson from Blanch and saved myself and LD the dead baby 36 hours later thing. But... what the heck is going on? Do any of you have any ideas? All four of these does stayed healthy and eating throughout their pregnancies. My wife has a theory they don't keep pushing because the other baby is already dead. Which is as good as any theory I have. But why is one baby dead if that's true? Am I doing something wrong? It would make a little more sense if we were talking about stuck babies. Breech or something. But this baby wasn't stuck. Don't know about Blanch because I didn't go in. 
Sorry for the rant.


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

Can you have a necropsy done on the latest dead baby? That may be able to give you an answer. Sorry it is happening. There are several conditions that causes dead babies but they usually cause all babies to pass. Are the dead babies full term?


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

dobe627 said:


> Can you have a necropsy done on the latest dead baby? That may be able to give you an answer. Sorry it is happening. There are several conditions that causes dead babies but they usually cause all babies to pass. Are the dead babies full term?


Yes. Full term. Exactly, if there are dead ones, why aren't they all dead?


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Aww shoot Tim. Im with your wife's theory. It has been my experience that when there's a dead kid they seem to quit pushing & you wind up pulling. Maybe there's some kind of hormones or something the live kids put out during the birth process??
Glad you got the doeling out of there.
Ive seen only one doe with a single pass a mashed up kid by herself. (she had been rammed by another)
Im so sorry.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

If you have seen a dead kid in 3 out of 4 kiddings I would be sure to get the kid off to the vet or WADDL for testing. The placenta also if you still have it. You may be looking at a abortion causing bacteria or infection. You want to determine the cause so you can take the right steps to hopefully prevent issues in the future.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I talked to Leslie Bader. A mutual friend of Nancy D's and mine, and she
thinks I might be dealing with selenium defeciency. I did not give any of
my does BoSe. I'm going to tomorrow. I talked to Coni Ross on the phone
and she mentioned giving E A/D. I did that yesterday. Coni said it could
be Toxoplasmosis or some other abortion disease, but that usually would
kill both kids. I have hope its the selenium defeciency. After the bad
outcome with the pnemonia vaccine, I chose to just give my does the
CDT vaccine and nothing else. I figured if I had a selenim problem it 
would show up with weak limbs in the kids. That has not materialized,
but Leslie says lack of Se can lead to poor birthing.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh Im so glad you talked with Leslie! Was going to suggest that. She's undoubtety right on target. In addition to good loose minerals my girls get their BoSe right before breeding & shortly before kidding.
And how's Granny doing?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Low Does on in the pecking order ...can get slammed really hard during pregnancy...causing death of a fetus......at anytime during pregnancy...

Also... sometimes during the delivery process....the umbilical cord is severed...this causes lack of oxygen ....so it suffocates from within..... before we can get it out...  :hug:


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

nancy d said:


> And how's Granny doing?


She's hanging in there. I continue to treat for pregnancy toxemia.
She got her BoSe today.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

:thumb:


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2012)

If the Does are over conditioned this can become a problem since they are in labor longer and have no real way to push causing the death of the kid closest to the diaphragm or all of them from being squeezed for long periods of time.
I may be wrong with your Does but a fat Doe will have these problems.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

True enough Sideplaner, but Im leaning toward the advice he got from Leslie. She knows her stuff & has never been wrong in all the years Ive known her.
I once had a kid with FKS. It was Leslie who told me what & how along with some info from Coni that pulled him through.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2012)

Didn't mean to interfere.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Sideplaner said:


> If the Does are over conditioned this can become a problem since they are in labor longer and have no real way to push causing the death of the kid closest to the diaphragm or all of them from being squeezed for long periods of time.
> I may be wrong with your Does but a fat Doe will have these problems.


This latest doe was indeed probably heavier than she should have been, but
two of the others were 50% and 100% dairy. It's hard to get them fat.

Good to see you again, Sideplaner! How's your herd?


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Sideplaner said:


> Didn't mean to interfere.


No you didnt interfere. As usual, you gave valid info!! Was just trying to explain the situation according to the advice he was given in the context.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2012)

Herd is doing great! I had 41 Does kid in Jan. with 82 kids all still alive and 60 day wean weights of 47lbs on the bucks with the top 10 of those at 60lbs. 
I have 68 Does in the heavy lot ready to pop, looks like too many will have 3 or more kids. Little concerned with the rain since they are crowded into the shelters and I can't see in. The goose has a nest in one of them and is doing a good job of keeping the goats off her.
Got my new Savanna buck from Ar and he is in with the open Does now so Sept kids looks like, he is the longest goat I have ever seen and should add capacity to future Does.
I bought a centrifuge and have been doing fecals for others $5 each as well as my self. Since it is raining that is what I am doing this morning between checking on the goats.
I can tell you that I have not wormed since last Aug, chemically that is. The DE fed every day as well as copper bolusing seems to be paying off. I have no intention of worming the pregnant Does after they kid only bolus and DE. Costs are down because of it since I have not had to run them through to worm at $200 per round. Current herd count 176 animals and I have only lost one Doe to Ketosis this winter which I diagnosed by doing my own Necropsy and testing. 
I have joined the AGF and feel that if everyone did we would have better meds and a better public image. 
Hey you guys take care, just thought I would pop by and didn't plan on posting here but saw it was you. I hope you figure out what is going on.
I do most of my posting on Goat Wisdom now, lot of good meat goat people there and it is fun.


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