# Free choice alfalfa pellets?



## still

I have seen several threads with people mentioning that their goats are fed free choice alfalfa pellets? I would like to know the pros/cons of this if there are any. onder:

My goats are fed twice per day and are on 4 acres of forage and I am thinking of possibly incorporating this into my feeding program.


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## mtmom75

I am curious about this too. I've seen it mentioned in a couple of threads, but I worry that my goats would make themselves sick from eating too much. Right now I mix alfalfa pellets with their grain and give them a measured amount twice a day (plus they get free choice grass hay). I also wonder how the price would compare. It's about the same price here for a 50# bag of pellets or a 100# bale of alfalfa hay. They, of course, waste at least half of the hay, but they don't waste any pellets... 

Anyway, thanks for asking this question.. I'm going to be watching to see what kind of answers you get.


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## KasKiRanch

My Vet said DO NOT FEED ALLFALFA PELLETS. Especially Wethers and Bucks as it causes Kidney stones that result in either death or surgery that must re-route the penis after snipping the end of it to pass the stones (basically they would then pee like a doe). 

I have a great link that explains this you can PM me and I will send it to you.

Like most things I do know people that feed Alfalfa Pellets, I am just not willing to risk my goats as it is a very PAINFUL death.


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## still

My girls get alfalfa pellets mixed in with their feed and do waste TONS of hay Is there something else that people feed free choice or is it just that? I won't have any wethers after this week ray:since I put them up for sale.

Your vet said to not feed alfalfa pellets at all?


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## ogfabby

Goats are misunderstood by many vets. Alfalfa pellets are fine. Bucks and weathers don't need much grain at all though. I would also keep apple cider vinegar in the water. I feed alfalfa pellets mixed with the grain ration they receive.


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## liz

KasKiRanch said:


> My Vet said DO NOT FEED ALLFALFA PELLETS. Especially Wethers and Bucks as it causes Kidney stones that result in either death or surgery that must re-route the penis after snipping the end of it to pass the stones (basically they would then pee like a doe).
> 
> I have a great link that explains this you can PM me and I will send it to you.
> 
> Like most things I do know people that feed Alfalfa Pellets, I am just not willing to risk my goats as it is a very PAINFUL death.


It has been founded with intensive research that genetics as well as diet play a role in UC... If you feed grain, alfalfa is ok to give as it balances the calcium/phosphorous ratio in the diet.... plentiful water helps too.
Regardless of diet though, some boys are just genetically prone to developing UC.
My 2 bucks and 1 wether get the same hay as well as feed that my does get... so far, no problems with UC


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## ThreeHavens

KasKiRanch said:


> My Vet said DO NOT FEED ALLFALFA PELLETS. Especially Wethers and Bucks as it causes Kidney stones that result in either death or surgery that must re-route the penis after snipping the end of it to pass the stones (basically they would then pee like a doe).
> 
> I have a great link that explains this you can PM me and I will send it to you.
> 
> Like most things I do know people that feed Alfalfa Pellets, I am just not willing to risk my goats as it is a very PAINFUL death.


This is a myth. Too much alfalfa CAN cause stones, but a little actually prevents it! Two wethers I sold got stones from grain and I swore to educate myself on it. After talking to goathiker on here (raises wethers as pack goats) and reading extensively, I realized that wethers need a 2/1 calcium phosphorus ratio in their diet. Hay is usually balanced in that way, but in my area hay can be a bit high on the phosphorus scale, so I give my wethers all about a 1/2 cup of alfalfa pellets each day. They all have done very well  The most common UC stones are caused by too much phosphorus, but they can really be caused by too much anything. Wethers should have a simple, balanced diet.

As for the free-choice, my only real concern would be mold. If you are going to offer free-choice I would offer alfalfa hay instead of the pellets.


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## goathiker

I basically feed alfalfa pellets free choice. I put out enough that the barely eat them all during the course of the day. I used to fill self feeders with them but the rats were digging into them and soiling them. They don't really eat as much as you might think. They each eat about a pound or two a day. I'm putting out 12lbs for 7 goats. Our grass hay here is very unbalanced about 1:1 ca/ph. The alfalfa boosts the calcium and provides extra vitamins.


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## KasKiRanch

As multiple people quoted what I said let me repost with some bold. As I used my words very carefully and did extensive research after my vet explained why NOT.​
My Vet said DO NOT FEED ALLFALFA *PELLETS*. Especially Wethers and Bucks as it (should have said "CAN) *causes* Kidney stones that result in either death or surgery that must re-route the penis after snipping the end of it to pass the stones (basically they would then pee like a doe).​
I have a great link that explains this you can PM me and I will send it to you.​
*Like most things I do know people that feed Alfalfa Pellets,* _I am just not willing to risk my goats_ as it is a very PAINFUL death. (I would be devastated as they are both a high quality breeding animal and family pets)​
Yes there are ways to prevent it from happening however "Alfalfa Pellets" are the much leading cause of this and my vet is more up to date in our area and does extensive treatment on goats in general (where I live it isn't small town ranching it is a high population of people who raise goats) it is *not his recommendation* and I tend to trust his judgment over losing a beloved animal. He suggested if you are going to feed goats a pelleted hay forage that timothy pellets didn't have the high concentrations that Alfalfa does that can cause the stones.​
As with all advice I am taking this from a medically licensed professional it isn't my opinion, at the time I was feeding Alfalfa Pellets to both my bucks and wethers.​


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## still

I didn't even think about the other pelleted hays! I wonder if Timothy would be just as good? Or even a mixed one that's in pellet form? Hhhmmmmm..........lots to think about


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## GTAllen

KasKiRanch said:


> As multiple people quoted what I said let me repost with some bold. As I used my words very carefully and did extensive research after my vet explained why NOT.​
> My Vet said DO NOT FEED ALLFALFA *PELLETS*. Especially Wethers and Bucks as it (should have said "CAN) *causes* Kidney stones that result in either death or surgery that must re-route the penis after snipping the end of it to pass the stones (basically they would then pee like a doe).​
> I have a great link that explains this you can PM me and I will send it to you.​
> *Like most things I do know people that feed Alfalfa Pellets,* _I am just not willing to risk my goats_ as it is a very PAINFUL death. (I would be devastated as they are both a high quality breeding animal and family pets)​
> Yes there are ways to prevent it from happening however "Alfalfa Pellets" are the much leading cause of this and my vet is more up to date in our area and does extensive treatment on goats in general (where I live it isn't small town ranching it is a high population of people who raise goats) it is *not his recommendation* and I tend to trust his judgment over losing a beloved animal. He suggested if you are going to feed goats a pelleted hay forage that timothy pellets didn't have the high concentrations that Alfalfa does that can cause the stones.​
> As with all advice I am taking this from a medically licensed professional it isn't my opinion, at the time I was feeding Alfalfa Pellets to both my bucks and wethers.​


Post the link


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## TrinityRanch

still said:


> I didn't even think about the other pelleted hays! I wonder if Timothy would be just as good? Or even a mixed one that's in pellet form? Hhhmmmmm..........lots to think about


We feed plain grass pellets! They are for horses, but the goat do very well on them. They don't seem to like the oat pellets as much. We, too, have had problems with alfalfa causing UC. Just asmall supplement of the hay and one of the goats got it. But, I do agree with the others, it's all about the calcium/phosphorus.


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## goathiker

Orchard grass pellets would have better nutrition for them then Timothy. Timothy is very low in protein and has the worst ratio of all the hays. It's perfect horse forage though. They have different requirements.


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## Abra

I am, as of today, leaving pellets for my does free-choice in their feeder, along with their free-choice hay.
After we almost lost Chloe due to Milk-Fever last night, she can eat as much pellets as she can muster!
I just hope I won't do more harm than good by doing this...

We are deficient in EVERYTHING in Alaska, so have to improvise.
Local hay has practically nothing in it. I always gave Alfalfa pellets in feed while milking, but I do need to up their intake...
Alfalfa hay here is $54 for a 50lb bale. And I can not afford that.  Pellets are about $20 for a 50# bag. So it's kind of a no-brainer....


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## ThreeHavens

KasKiRanch, I didn't mean to be argumentative. I have heard from different vets. Some say NEVER alfalfa, others recommend it. It's a hard thing to know, for sure. One of my wethers had the surgery you are talking of (from grain, not alfalfa). My area may be higher in phosphorus than yours, as alfalfa pellets actually protect my wethers from too much phosphorus. :shrug: Still learning! And I'm constantly on the "pee watch" :laugh:

But I do know many breeders who give (limited) alfalfa to their boys, in order to maintain the correct balance. But you are completely correct in that an ALL alfalfa diet would be a problem, IMO.


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## GoatsLive

I feed rhizome peanut hay when I can get it, T&A a couple of months a year when I can't. Alfalfa cubes, I only use as treats, 4 or 5 each goat a day. Says right on the bag (Summit brand) NOT to feed free choice, but rather keep the ration to 1% of body weight. Seems like a logical thing to do.


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## KasKiRanch

ThreeHavens said:


> KasKiRanch, I didn't mean to be argumentative. I have heard from different vets. Some say NEVER alfalfa, others recommend it. It's a hard thing to know, for sure. One of my wethers had the surgery you are talking of (from grain, not alfalfa). My area may be higher in phosphorus than yours, as alfalfa pellets actually protect my wethers from too much phosphorus. :shrug: Still learning! And I'm constantly on the "pee watch" :laugh:
> 
> But I do know many breeders who give (limited) alfalfa to their boys, in order to maintain the correct balance. But you are completely correct in that an ALL alfalfa diet would be a problem, IMO.


Three Havens, I didn't take it as argumentative ; just wanted to clarify the information that I was provided. As anything goes with people, vets, doctors, etcs. they all have their own opinion and I was just sharing the info I have on it.

As long as the information is true (and different areas minerals are different so it may or may not be a problem at all to some) I was sharing along with everyone else. I just didn't want to portray what I said as "THE ONLY OPTION and/or FACT (as it is a can and not a will happen)" as someone mentioned it as a myth and that is in fact not true.

There are risks in anything that you do as with everything moderation is key.

Here is one link that has good information on the subject. 
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculi06.html

I will also steal her little blurb 

Important! Please Read This Notice!
All information provided in these articles is based either on personal experience or information provided by others whose treatments and practices have been discussed fully with a vet for accuracy and effectiveness before passing them on to readers.
In all cases, it is your responsibility to obtain veterinary services and advice before using any of the information provided in these articles. Suzanne Gasparotto is not a veterinarian.Neither tennesseemeatgoats.com nor any of the contributors to this website will be held responsible for the use of any information contained herein.


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## KasKiRanch

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/stones.htm

An additional article regarding this issue. For information purposes only.


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## GTAllen

Neither of links say anything about alfalfa being a "leading" cause of UC. Unbalanced Ca/P ratio is what the links refer as the suspected cause of UC. Alfalfa is high in Ca and needs to be balanced. Other hays, to include grass hays, can be high in Ca. 

Prevention of UC in wethers is easily accomplished with a balanced Ca/P ration. If there is a worry about Ca/P ratio then a feed with AC added or adding a little AC to minerals and feed is a very cheap preventive.


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## KasKiRanch

GTAllen said:


> Neither of links say anything about alfalfa being a "leading" cause of UC. Unbalanced Ca/P ratio is what the links refer as the suspected cause of UC. Alfalfa is high in Ca and needs to be balanced. Other hays, to include grass hays, can be high in Ca.
> 
> Prevention of UC in wethers is easily accomplished with a balanced Ca/P ration. If there is a worry about Ca/P ratio then a feed with AC added or adding a little AC to minerals and feed is a very cheap preventive.


I didn't say the links said alfalfa was the "Leading" cause, *my VET* told me that because Alfalfa pellets are such a high concentration and unbalanced Ca/P ration specifically for goats.

I provided the link for *information purposes only* as someone requested I post the link with the information.


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## K Gemmill

GTAllen said:


> Neither of links say anything about alfalfa being a "leading" cause of UC. Unbalanced Ca/P ratio is what the links refer as the suspected cause of UC. Alfalfa is high in Ca and needs to be balanced. Other hays, to include grass hays, can be high in Ca.
> 
> Prevention of UC in wethers is easily accomplished with a balanced Ca/P ration. If there is a worry about Ca/P ratio then a feed with AC added or adding a little AC to minerals and feed is a very cheap preventive.


Sorry what is AC


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## mariarose

AC is Ammonium Chloride. UC is Urinary Calculi (stones in the urinary tract.) in very simplistic terms, AC helps prevent and dissolve UC. Also very simplistically, AC is more important in the diet of a male, especially a wether, than it is in the diet of a female. Also very simplistically, UC is more often caused by an excess of Phosphorus than it is by an excess of Calcium. And that is counter-intuitive.


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## K Gemmill

How can we be sure to get enough AC in a weathers diet? I am new to raising goats and have 2 Nigerian dwarf weathers.


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## mariarose

Hi. Do you know anything about how old they were when they were wethered?

Later wethering helps the tube get large enough so that UC isn't as much of an issue, is why I'm asking.

Lots of exercise and fresh clean water helps the UC issue. Wethers can sometimes get a little lazy.

A total diet intake of at least 2 times the amount of calcium to the amount of phosphorus is important, too. It's easy to check this level on bagged feeds and on your bagged minerals, because it is right there on the label, but you have to account for your hay and browse, too. Others here have more knowledge of details, but in general, grass hay is higher in phosphorus, and legumes are higher in calcium. Alfalfa is high in calcium.

Some mineral mixes have AC in them. Manna Pro is one of those. You can also buy Ammonium Chloride separately. The AniMed brand says to add 1 1/2 lbs to 25 lbs loose mineral, so you can buy a different mineral that suits your needs whether or not it has AC in it. You can also use it as an emergency drench, in case (despite all you've done to prevent it) one of your wethers develops UC anyway.

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00LFNH69E/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Good luck with your ND wethers. I'll bet they are adorable.


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## Honsby

mtmom75 said:


> They, of course, waste at least half of the hay, but they don't waste any pellets...


It's maybe not the answer you were seeking but there has been a good deal of positive response to a video here: 







My wife is playing the fiddle.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat

Our goats are in a forage land (except for babies) and I give them a mix between alfalfa and hay. Somtimes I can buy it in cubes and sometimes I get it in a regular hay bale. My boys have never had kidney stones but I never give them TOO much alfalfa.


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## K Gemmill

mariarose said:


> Hi. Do you know anything about how old they were when they were wethered?
> 
> Later wethering helps the tube get large enough so that UC isn't as much of an issue, is why I'm asking.
> 
> Lots of exercise and fresh clean water helps the UC issue. Wethers can sometimes get a little lazy.
> 
> A total diet intake of at least 2 times the amount of calcium to the amount of phosphorus is important, too. It's easy to check this level on bagged feeds and on your bagged minerals, because it is right there on the label, but you have to account for your hay and browse, too. Others here have more knowledge of details, but in general, grass hay is higher in phosphorus, and legumes are higher in calcium. Alfalfa is high in calcium.
> 
> Some mineral mixes have AC in them. Manna Pro is one of those. You can also buy Ammonium Chloride separately. The AniMed brand says to add 1 1/2 lbs to 25 lbs loose mineral, so you can buy a different mineral that suits your needs whether or not it has AC in it. You can also use it as an emergency drench, in case (despite all you've done to prevent it) one of your wethers develops UC anyway.
> 
> https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00LFNH69E/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Good luck with your ND wethers. I'll bet they are adorable.


My boys were 9 weeks old and 11 weeks old when they were banded.


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## mariarose

That is earlier than is best. So now you know that prevention is very important, and you know to have some AC on hand in order to use as a drench.

It is really good that you know that.


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## K Gemmill

mariarose said:


> Hi. Do you know anything about how old they were when they were wethered?
> 
> Later wethering helps the tube get large enough so that UC isn't as much of an issue, is why I'm asking.
> 
> Lots of exercise and fresh clean water helps the UC issue. Wethers can sometimes get a little lazy.
> 
> A total diet intake of at least 2 times the amount of calcium to the amount of phosphorus is important, too. It's easy to check this level on bagged feeds and on your bagged minerals, because it is right there on the label, but you have to account for your hay and browse, too. Others here have more knowledge of details, but in general, grass hay is higher in phosphorus, and legumes are higher in calcium. Alfalfa is high in calcium.
> 
> Some mineral mixes have AC in them. Manna Pro is one of those. You can also buy Ammonium Chloride separately. The AniMed brand says to add 1 1/2 lbs to 25 lbs loose mineral, so you can buy a different mineral that suits your needs whether or not it has AC in it. You can also use it as an emergency drench, in case (despite all you've done to prevent it) one of your wethers develops UC anyway.
> 
> https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00LFNH69E/ref=nav_timeline_asin?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Good luck with your ND wethers. I'll bet they are adorable.


Is minerals and baking soda a way to help prevent UC ? They always have available.


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## mariarose

The mineral issue for UC is the balance between Calcium and Phosphorus. Total diet consumption (not just the mineral mix, but everything they eat) should be at LEAST 2 parts calcium to one part phosphorus. Grass hay has more phosphorus, grains have more phosphorus. Alfalfa has more calcium.

Your wethers should not have free choice baking soda. That will alkalize the system, and you want a slightly acidic system.

They should have loose minerals all the time but not baking soda.


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## Clairepaws

My goaties get free choice alfalfa pellets during the day and portioned out grain at night, plus minerals and browse. We don't have good hay here, although I am looking for it, so I do the free choice alfalfa. I prefer alfalfa over grass hays because it has more calcium and is better for my wether, and the grain I feed has added AC. This diet has worked really well for me, it has the right balance for my wether and everyone is doing really good on it.
But I always say, do what works for you depending on you situation. You know your goats best.
:kid:


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## mariarose

Hi Clairepaws. Do you have trouble finding alfalfa hay in Florida? Can you find peanut hay? I've heard others say this is what they use instead.

You make no mention of free choice baking soda for your wether. Is this something you do, and if so, how old was he when wethered?

I don't put out baking soda at all unless I'm going away for a few days and can't watch them. Friends of mine use baking soda for the does, but not at all for the boys.

I go through a lot of alfalfa pellets here. The rest of their diet is heavy on phosphorus, so I'm very comfortable with that. I would give good alfalfa hay if I could find an affordable option. I use Summit brand, and I really love it.

What do you have available?


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## Clairepaws

mariarose said:


> Hi Clairepaws. Do you have trouble finding alfalfa hay in Florida? Can you find peanut hay? I've heard others say this is what they use instead.
> 
> You make no mention of free choice baking soda for your wether. Is this something you do, and if so, how old was he when wethered?
> 
> I don't put out baking soda at all unless I'm going away for a few days and can't watch them. Friends of mine use baking soda for the does, but not at all for the boys.
> 
> I go through a lot of alfalfa pellets here. The rest of their diet is heavy on phosphorus, so I'm very comfortable with that. I would give good alfalfa hay if I could find an affordable option. I use Summit brand, and I really love it.
> 
> What do you have available?


The only alfalfa hay available in my area is standlee compressed bales, which are 20 bucks a pop and too pricey for my wasteful babies. I stick with pellets as they are cheaper and less waste. I can get peanut hay and seem to have found a decent supplier but haven't bought any yet. So we'll have to wait and see for that.
I do not do free choice baking soda. I've only ever used it for bloat. He was wethered at 3 months, but it was done surgically like how dogs are and I've heard that reduces risk of UC.
I use standlee alfalfa pellets, and have dumor and some other horse brands available as well, but they are all too big for my kids little mouths.


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