# Breeding Problem?



## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

My favorite doe of ours (Liberty) has had something strange about her female parts since birth. I tried to find a picture where it could be visible, and this was the best I could find. You can see it if you look close. It is really pink in the first pic. 

She has a pea sized bump that sticks slightly out of her vulva, and has had that since day 1 when I first noticed it. It hasn't gotten bigger or smaller. 

It seems to be connected to a tendon or something that runs strait back in as far as I can feel externally. 

I showed it to a breeder friend at a show on Friday and she said Liberty will probably never breed. She thinks Liberty could be neither a female or a male. I know that has a word but can't remember it. 

Has anyone seen this before or know of what it could be? I would be devastated if this doe won't breed...


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

Hermaphrodite?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I have read about that- in Storey's Guide to Raising Dairy Goats.

I can't quote it word for word, but it described that condition almost exactly as you did, and said that such kids are hermaphrodites, and should be destroyed.  That's what the book said, not me.
That's all I can contribute, I've never encountered it before otherwise.


I sure hope that's not the case, and she will be able to be bred for you. :hug:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Yea, that's it.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Byccombe said:


> I have read about that- in Storey's Guide to Raising Dairy Goats.
> 
> I can't quote it word for word, but it described that condition almost exactly as you did, and said that such kids are hermaphrodites, and should be destroyed.  That's what the book said, not me.
> That's all I can contribute, I've never encountered it before otherwise.
> ...


Sigh...  Me too. We love this doe.

Thanks.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yep sounds like it could be a Hermaphrodite..


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Try anyway. Yes she does have some characteristics of a hermie BUT, she is not showing the buckiness that they normally do. She may just have an enlarged clitoris. If so, she will breed just fine. Another way to tell a hermie is that the teats are very tiny like a wethers. OSU has a blood test for hermies and free martins now.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

i'm afraid he might be correct especially if it goes inside that would be the rudimentary penis, i hope i'm wrong maybe it's a huge clitoris, how old is she and have you ever seen her in heat?


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

:tears::tears::tears::GAAH::tear:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

She's 6 1/2 months. I think I have seen her in heat? 

We will still try to breed her, but I wanted to AI her. Of course we won't try that now.... I heard the blood test is really expensive but we may try that?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I could find out. A friend just had it done to a free martin she ended up with. I'll e-mail her about it.

I see nice sized teats hanging down in every picture. That would give some hope.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

she is a beautiful doe!


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

You should probably have your vet examine her. It may not be that at all. But, if it is, I would want to know as soon as possible.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

I would watch and see if she cycles as she should be in heat soon if she is ever going to be. I dont know about the cost of the blood test it would of course be a simple dna test she is either xx or xy(male) in that case she is phenotypically female and genotypically male.This is the form of hermaphroditism common in cattle. Just a quick question was she a twin with a buck? I know it isnt supposed to matter with goats and sheep but it sure does matter in cattle. My masters is in dairy genetics so i'm just wondering if it is more common in goats than it was previously thought. Now you are going to tell me that she was a single and blow my theory out of the water. I know there is a correlation between hermaphrodite goats and polled parents, but since she is a boer that shouldnt be a factor. Well anyway I would be very interested in documenting her case if she is indeed a hermaphrodite.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You could also probe her with a speculum. A hermie normally had a short blind vaginal opening.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I refuse to believe it. Also what Goathiker said... I (we) might be wrong, but it would seem like you could tell more if you put a speculum with a light source in her. A good vet or someone who has done AI should be able to tell you if the inside looks normal. And that's the part that counts. My doe Charish has a bump right there and she kidded quads last year. I'll try and get a pic. .


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

She was a twin with a buck yes... Is that a good thing or a bad thing enchantedgoats? 

Thanks for the glimmer of hope Tim... I don't want to believe it either. It would be devastating. We love this girl. 

I'll see if I can get Pat Hendrickson to look at her. She would know... She did the AI clinic last week or the week before in Chehalis.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

It's a bad thing. what happens is the female twin absorbs some male cells from her brother and becomes some of both. so actually the female is a chimera hermaphrodite. that doesnt mean your girl is one it would just be interesting if she is.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Goat hiker is giving you awesome advise. We have had some with the calf's but since they looked so bully we never looked at vagina just sold them to beef packers. She is 100% right about the prob thing. With cows its called the pencile test if it goes so far good to go if not no good but have never done it. I would still give her a try if you don't do the blood test. If need be give her a few months and breed her a little early. At least that way if she's no good you you will want to find a home for her you don't have to feed her for ever. I'm sure you can find her a good home as a pet. 
I often wonder about this with the goats. Cows if a boy and girl are the twins they are no good. I'm guessing the egg splits with them is why. And I wonder just how often kids are born from a split egg and not 2 different eggs. I know there are terms for this lol but I go the graphic way


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

We'll certainly see if our vet or AI friends can tell... 

Wow, that is interesting. Never heard of that before! Why'd it have to be this doe though.  I sure hope we're wrong.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

the term for split egg twins is identical. 2 egg twins are fraternal. hermaphrodites in cows are always fraternal one female(hermaphrodite) and one male.
remember this is cattle hermaphrodites i'm talking about, this is just a little research i'm doing on my own to see if the the goat hermis out there are twin with buck. I so hope she isnt.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Crossroads Boers said:


> S
> I'll see if I can get Pat Hendrickson to look at her. She would know... She did the AI clinic last week or the week before in Chehalis.


She would know. She'd probably be my first choice.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I have seen this a few times. In fact we ended up with a non breeder this year as well. The vagi is a good indication but another way is to check the teats. Typically they will be much much smaller then they would normally be. More like the size of a buckling then another doeling. Another indication is the head. There is often enough difference in the skull shape to also suggest a non breeder. She will have a more bucky type head. If you get all three of these on a doeling, you can be assured she is a non breeder and wont have to hold her over.

NOW on the good side. A doe like that more often then not makes a GREAT heat detector. They have enough bucky in them that does in heat will often times get flirty with the non breeder and the non breeder will play the part of a buck with them. It doesnt happen all the time but if she does turn out to be a "butch" then they are worth their feed just by telling you who is in heat early or if you have does with silent heats, they will tell you them as well.

You could even run her with a buck early so she can get his smell all over her. If she is a non breeder then there is no worry about her getting pregers and the added smell will help her with the ladies


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Crossroads Boers said:


> It seems to be connected to a tendon or something that runs strait back in as far as I can feel externally. .


This is the only thing you said that sort of bothered me. If she comes in heat I wouldn't even worry. I took a look at all mine when I fed just now and they all have that bump with a *wide variation* as to size. On some it lays just inside, but they all have it. I see what you mean about taking a picture of it. Not as easy as you would think to get it to show up.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

My best doe kid of 2012 was a hermie. Her vulva looked and sounded similar to your girls, but from a distance it is hard to tell. With my girl/boy/it, by 6 months of age she was already acting very bucky, driving the does crazy as they came into heat. She started developing secondary sex characteristics of a buck (thick neck and skeleton, extra hair, masculine look) and was even trying to pee on herself (that was a sight....). Her vulva would get engorged, swollen and hard when she was chasing a doe in heat. Her teats were so small you could just about see them, and where her udder should have been, you could make out a scrotum.

I checked on the test, it was 50.00 or so if I remember correctly. I didn't bother because it was so obvious with this, uh, it that it wasn't worth spending the money. There was nothing remotely feminine about this girl, she was a buck with misplaced parts. 

She was 1 of quads, 3 does/1 buck. In that litter, there was the 1 hermie and 1 Freemartin (she was checked). Neither parent was polled and had no genetic in common at all. And yes, there are carpine freemartins, it is not found just in cattle. It is rare, but it happens, probaly more often than is known. I personally know a lot of does who never settled or came into season that were born twin/trip/quad with a buck. People never think to check for freematin traits because they don't believe it can happen in goats.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

This doeling does not look bucky at all to me. And I've seen her in person. I still don't believe it.


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## USAMARS (Sep 4, 2013)

This kid is a born Hermaphrodite, basically it is a result of HARMONIC DIS BALANCE of her mother, she gave the birth but harmonically she was ill.and in this case it is obvious that her male harmons 
were doing as parasites to female harmons and this what u can see.plz do'nt try to breed her , may be she can come on heat but can not give birth to a normal kid.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

OK, don't panic just yet.

Does it resemble a almost perfect BB size round area, just inside the vulva lips at the bottom area? If so, I had a Doe that kidded for many years that the same thing, out of all the years she kidded, she had one Doeling, with the exact same little BB thingy. 
The person who bought her (the offspring), questioned it. I told her to breed her, when she is ready and she said, she will not get preggo, because her friend said, she gets rid of any like that, they won't take. I said, breed her and I assure you, she will have kids. Well, she raised her up and at 1 year old, she was bred, 5 months later, she kidded healthy twin babies, that grew up normal as well. 
I told her, your friend gave you the wrong advice, she could of sold really good does, that didn't have issues at all. 

You can have her tested to make sure before hand. So your nerves aren't shot.


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## MotleyBoerGoats (Mar 23, 2013)

Crossroads Boers said:


> My favorite doe of ours (Liberty) has had something strange about her female parts since birth. I tried to find a picture where it could be visible, and this was the best I could find. You can see it if you look close. It is really pink in the first pic.
> 
> She has a pea sized bump that sticks slightly out of her vulva, and has had that since day 1 when I first noticed it. It hasn't gotten bigger or smaller.
> 
> ...


Oh Victora im so sorry i do believe that is what it is im sorry i know you had such high hopes for this girl


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

If anyone can tell for sure it will be Pat H. 
Liberty thus far as I can tell is very feminine.
Of the two does I had here that never settled, one was on the masculine side but neither had any unusual plumbing.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thank you all so much for your advice and suggestions. I do appreciate it! I don't want to believe it, and am trying not to feel devastated, although I sort of do. We have high hopes for this girl. 

From what some of you have said, I still have hope that she will breed just fine. I also noticed Tim that our other does have the same thing like you said. All different though in placement... Liberty's is visible from the outside though unlike the others. It is about the size of a pea. I just felt our 4 younger does but all of theirs were smaller than Liberty's. 

I'm not giving up on her. This doe means a lot to us so we'll give it our all and hope she breeds. I think we'll try Pat first as she only lives 30 minutes from us, then the blood test if Pat can't tell. I bet she will though. 

Liberty has unusually large teats if anything. 

She grew at the same rate as her brother until 3 months old when he passed her. She is a powerful looking doe in every way, but still a doe... I would never guess she looks like a buck in any way.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> OK, don't panic just yet.
> 
> Does it resemble a almost perfect BB size round area, just inside the vulva lips at the bottom area?


Yea exactly, but it is more the size of a pea.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You must be in torment right now. Get her looked at and tested so you will know for sure. I pray she is OK. My Doe was. 
BB to pea size is still small. I know either of them stands out when looking at it. :hug:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks Pam.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Hoping for good test results. One of mine has that too, she kidded twins this year...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Your welcome.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Good to know Julie!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I talked with a friend today who has a doe with the exact same thing as Liberty. We looked at her and sure enough it looks identical to what Liberty has. My friend said they are going to cull that doe. She was at a BioGenetics class a little while ago, and the speaker went on and on and over and over this problem of intersex and showed many pictures of it. It is a cull factor. This visible thing Liberty has is a guaranteed sign that 1. the doe will never breed or 2. if she does breed her offspring will definitely or almost definitely be infertile. Whether that is buck and doe offspring, I have no idea, and neither did my friend. 

This doe at my friends house kidded this year with twin bucks... So she was obviously breedable. However according to my friend, from what she heard at the class this doe will become infertile eventually. 

So we have 3 options at this point... 

Keep Liberty as a consuming pet... which is not a smart idea... 
Sell her as a pet... which would be heartbreaking
Or keep her for a couple more months and try to breed her. If she takes great. But then we gotta worry about her offspring having the same problem like my friend said they will. I don't know what to do...


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

OK, so I did some googling and I can't find anywhere where a free martin or hermaphrodite or intersex can breed at all as they are infertile. So based on this, unless someone can show me something else, if they can have kids they are normal! I would still have Pat H look at her. If she is a intersex, she likely will not have a normal vaginal canal and someone who is expert in AI would figure that out in about two seconds. I think...


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Definitely have her looked at. There are so many really smart people who firmly believe things that just aren't true because they trusted a source who thought they knew. And each person naturally will color the truth their own interpretation in the telling. There is so much misinformation out there both online and in person. Make the call and ask the expert that you know. I agree with Tenacross, an AI expert would know if she is physically normal on the exterior. if she is, do the genetic test and know for sure. Don't agonize about it any longer than you have to. Hearing horror stories and opinions only makes it harder. I am sorry you are going through this. She is a beautiful doe and I'll bet she is just fine.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Really? Hmmm... That's what I thought at first since I new that doe had kidded, but I kept asking the same question to Danette as to why it was still a problem if she kidded, and she said that her doe will go infertile eventually and her offspring will have the same problem. 

I do agree we should have Pat look at her just to be sure. We'll get slammed HARD for her being fat I know that... She is very serious about not having "over conditioned" goats and gives us talks in the ring about it every time...  Patrick and Melody were telling me how Pat had a lot of trouble AI-ing one of their yearling does as she was too fat, and she looked like a normal goat to me!


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

I just read through the thread, and I say to get her checked out before jumping to conclusions and deciding what to do. she looks girly to me...if that helps any.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

She looks like a doe and acts fully like a doe... I have never seen her act like a buck. I know for certain this thing she has is a sign of intersex... I asked so many questions while at my friends house trying to get answers and was close to tears when we left as I was so sure Liberty would not breed from what she said.  

I just emailed Pat so hopefully we can get Liberty over there and have her looked at soon.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

You and I were posting at exactly the same time....good for you to get ahold of Pat. A little slap on the hand over a fat doe  will be worth the answers you are sure to get.


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## 7blessings (Jun 30, 2013)

What is the difference between a hermie and a freemartian?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

7blessings said:


> What is the difference between a hermie and a freemartian?


A hermaphrodite has some equipment from both sexes. 
A freemartin will appear female but will be missing some important parts and will be sterile.

Also, hemaphrodite just like a free martin may appear perfectly female without outward signs she in fact has testicles in her abdomen, a penis up inside her vuvla, or the vagina goes nowhere. Yes we had a hemaphrodite female as our first goat, she had a female vulva and male testicles and we called her "hotlips" because she exhibited male blubbering etc... I have also seen a free martin who had a smaller than normal, tipped up more than normal vulva whose vagina went nowhere.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Did they check how deep her vaginal area is?
I read, if it is less than an inch, she cannot conceived, if it is longer, she should be OK.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

The vagina that goes to nowhere seems to be the reoccurring theme and should be easy to figure out for someone with experience.


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## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

This is a fascinating thread...and what a beauty! It sounds like she has a shot! And I hope she breeds for you...


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thank you ^  I sure hope so too. 

Nobody who would know that has looked at her yet. We'll try to get her over to a Pat who does AI in the next few days. I know she will know if this doe can breed.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

enchantedgoats said:


> the term for split egg twins is identical. 2 egg twins are fraternal. hermaphrodites in cows are always fraternal one female(hermaphrodite) and one male.
> remember this is cattle hermaphrodites i'm talking about, this is just a little research i'm doing on my own to see if the the goat hermis out there are twin with buck. I so hope she isnt.


Absolutely not true with goats. In cattle, 88% of the time the heifers are sterile. In goats, this hardly ever happens. Hermaphroditism has a lot to do with genes and sometimes the polled gene is linked with hermaphroditism as well. Many of us kid (or lamb) twins on a regular basis with no issues. It's a rarity, but not unheard of.

Best wishes with your doe. Man is she ever gorgeous. It would be such a shame.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

That is interesting... ^ 

Thank you.  I agree.


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## Cayennepepper (Feb 1, 2013)

I'm wishing you the best on her she is so pretty. love the name too


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thank you.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Found out some new news from my friend. She said that sometimes this problem (what should I be calling it?) can skip a generation, and it will only be passed on to female offspring. I was worried that the males could/would have a problem too but it is only the females. 

So I am confused now as how Liberty got it... if it is a genetic thing passed down from dam to daughter... how does it keep getting passed down if the offspring are truly infertile? Liberty's dam Poli doesn't have it. 

It must just be a fluky thing that can pop up with no reason or genetic back ground?


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Good questions Victoria.
Melody & I were having the discussion about fat. It starts & stays in the organs. She will never lose the internal fat.

In a little more history about my two does who never settled; They shared all the same genetics in a family of three sisters were were bred by same sire.
The two were cousins. One grew up sort of bucky the other not.
The 2nd one I sold & after she wouldn't settle for him either he had her butchered. I went up that day & asked the butcher to show me any abnormalities like excess fat.
He discovered no ovaries.
Here's the kicker. One doe, another cousin who is still here has only kidded 4 times. She has been barren the last three seasons. She comes into heat but doesn't take. The last time she was preg she aborted early on. All three of these does had normal looking plumbing.
Maybe what Danette was talking about?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Prayers sent that she is OK. 

Take a deep breath and get her checked soon, before it drives you crazy. I think she is OK, but, I am not there to check her.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks Pam. This is hard to have to worry about and constantly think about.  

I'm thinking we'll either get her looked at today or Friday. 

That is very interesting Nancy. Maybe so?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

could Liberty get an ultrasound to see if she has proper internal plumbing? I mean, if after getting her looked at comes out inconclusive?

this is certainly a very interesting thread. I really hope your girl just has larger than normal lady parts.....


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Maybe... ? I'll cross that bridge when we get to it.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

mjs500doo said:


> absolutely not true with goats. In cattle, 88% of the time the heifers are sterile. In goats, this hardly ever happens. Hermaphroditism has a lot to do with genes and sometimes the polled gene is linked with hermaphroditism as well. Many of us kid (or lamb) twins on a regular basis with no issues. It's a rarity, but not unheard of.
> 
> Best wishes with your doe. Man is she ever gorgeous. It would be such a shame.


if you have read all of my posts you would know that i was asking the question not making claims. I was always told it was not true in goats also. However, I think it would be a good idea for some research i'm doing on hermaphrodites of all species. I agree that it is extremely rare but i'm just trying to find out from other breeders how rare and what genetics might be involved and if chimerism is more prevalent than thought. I hope this doe is not a hermaphrodite. But if she is i was just wanting to document it for my research that's all. I'm very aware what the correlation is in cattle thats why i have a masters in dairy genetics!


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

Crossroads Boers said:


> Maybe... ? I'll cross that bridge when we get to it.


good thoughts for you!


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

Crossroads Boers said:


> Found out some new news from my friend. She said that sometimes this problem (what should I be calling it?) can skip a generation, and it will only be passed on to female offspring. I was worried that the males could/would have a problem too but it is only the females.
> 
> So I am confused now as how Liberty got it... if it is a genetic thing passed down from dam to daughter... how does it keep getting passed down if the offspring are truly infertile? Liberty's dam Poli doesn't have it.
> 
> It must just be a fluky thing that can pop up with no reason or genetic back ground?


this genetic defect(?) would be carried by the father to the daughter. it's sort of like baldness in humans. women arent bald but if their father was bald then their sons will be bald. so instead of mother to son this would be father to daughter and he would pass this trait to his sons that would not show it but would carry it.that's how it keeps going.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

You've shown this doe right? Have the judges ever noticed? Have they said anything about it? If it is truly a cull factor surely a judge would have noticed and would have to place her towards the end of the class for exhibiting possible signs of intersex. Aside from her vulva she doesn't look like a hermi to me at all. She looks very feminine, nice head, horns aren't too thick and it looks like she has pretty good sized teats (based on the pic in your signature).

I do hope you get some definite answers soon. She is a very pretty doe and it would be a shame if she was infertile.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

enchantedgoats said:


> this genetic defect(?) would be carried by the father to the daughter. it's sort of like baldness in humans. women arent bald but if their father was bald then their sons will be bald. so instead of mother to son this would be father to daughter and he would pass this trait to his sons that would not show it but would carry it.that's how it keeps going.


Hair gene in humans is actually passed from the maternal grandfather.  Point taken however.

I didn't mean to accuse you of stating wrong, just wanted to settle the question. No harm done.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

I wonder...have you tried the test tube method of checking the doe, as we do in cattle? She appears feminine throughout, I wouldn't suspect extra testosterone." Myself. I'm hoping an enlarged clitoris. Clitoris' do have a "stem", as they're directly related to the penis. I really hope she's normal. Keeping positive thoughts!!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Crossroads Boers said:


> Really? Hmmm... That's what I thought at first since I new that doe had kidded, but I kept asking the same question to Danette as to why it was still a problem if she kidded, and she said that her doe will go infertile eventually and her offspring will have the same problem.
> 
> I do agree we should have Pat look at her just to be sure. We'll get slammed HARD for her being fat I know that... She is very serious about not having "over conditioned" goats and gives us talks in the ring about it every time...  Patrick and Melody were telling me how Pat had a lot of trouble AI-ing one of their yearling does as she was too fat, and she looked like a normal goat to me!


I was gonna suggest trimming her down a little before trying to breed just so you know she is good or not. Over weight animals and I guess people do have a harder time getting bred/ pregnant.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Oh trust me she is on a diet.  

I heard this genetic defect is passed on from the dam to doe offspring only... the sire has nothing to do with it from what I heard. I could be wrong though. If the sire is the problem, how come non of our other doelings had it? 

Yes I have shown this doe all year since May. Nobody has ever said a word about it and Liberty has had it since birth. She was checked by 3 vets for fairs and none of them said anything about it either. She has really big teats too.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

ptgoats45 said:


> You've shown this doe right? Have the judges ever noticed? Have they said anything about it? If it is truly a cull factor surely a judge would have noticed and would have to place her towards the end of the class for exhibiting possible signs of intersex. .


Glad somebody said this.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

In our case I believe it was from the one time sire. In 7 seasons this has not come up on any other doelings.
My doe's offspring are still producing as far as I know.
Like other faults or defects, things are bound to crop up now & then. If a doe is truly a hermie she will not produce by process of natural elimination.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

since i am unfamiliar with this particular genetic defect(?) i was just try to show an example of how it might be transmitted. it could be like cystic fibrosis in humans where both parents must carry the gene, i'll try to contact some of my other geneticist buddies and see if they know about it. faith


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks! I appreciate you doing that.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

kns farm has an article on the internet about hermaphroditism in goats and i think WARPONY HAS BEEN HOLDING OUT ON US AS THEIR QUESTION WAS IN THE ARTICLE FROM LAST YEAR IN THE GOAT WHISPERER. ANYWAY IF YOU LOOK UP THAT ARTICLE YOU WILL SEE THE SAME LOOKING PARTS AS BELLE. SAME WITH AN ARTICLE IN GOAT WISDOM.AND AN ARTICLE OUT OF CANADA WHICH IS MORE TO THE POINT AS IT WAS ON A HORNED HERMI. I DID LEARM SOMETHING ELSE THAT THE HERMAPHRODITE GENETIC MAKEUP IN GOATS ALSO APPEARS IN WOMEN WITH EARLY OVARIAN FAILURE AND HEAVY EYELIDS. THE OVARIAN FAILURE WAS INTERESTING AS SOME RESPONSE TO THIS THREAD HAS BEEN ABOUT DOES THAT BREED ONCE OR TWICE AND QUIT.STILL WAITING FOR A REPLY FROM MY FRIEND IN vA. BUT THIS WILL GIVE YOU SOME PLACE TO START READING. THE INFO I HAVE SO FAR IS THAT HORNED HERMIS ARE 60XX/60XY IN GENETICS AS OPPOSED TO THE POLLED HERMI. IF YOU DECIDE TO DO THE TEST TUBE TEST HER VAGINA WILL BE ABOUT 5 CM IN LENGTH. DONT MEAN TO BE GROSS BUT IT SEEMS A WELL WASHED FINGER WOULD WORK AND BE LESS LIKELY TO BREAK OR SPLINTER. THE USDA STATES THAT:
The rare occurrence of horned intersexes is believed to be due to the crossing over between the closely linked genes for hornlessness and hermophrodism
SO WHAT THE USDA IS SAYING THAT ALTHOUGH RARE IT DOES OCCUR WHEN BOTH THOSE GENES ARE PRESENT AND THE GENES GET TOO CLOSE TO ONE ANOTHER IN THE DNA OF THAT PARTICULAR GOAT. THE USDA ALSO STATES THAT HERMAPHRODTISM IN GOATS IS MORE PREVALENT THAN ANY OTHER FARM ANIMAL INCLUDING CATTLE!! WHO KNEW!!!
JUST HEARD BACK FROM MY FRIEND, HE SAYS THAT THESE TWIN GOAT CHIMERAS MAY BE FERTILE TO A LESSER EXTENT DEPENDING ON WHICH EMBRYO OF THE TWINS PRODUCES THE SEX FIRST. SO IF THE FEMALE DOESNT ABSORB TOO MANY MALE CELLS SHE WILL BE FERTILE FOR AT LEAST PART OF HER LIFE. IF TOO MANY MALE CELLS SHE WILL HAVE MORE MALE SECONDARY SEX CHARACTERISTICS., AND THUS A PRONOUNCED HERMI. THE MALE WILL BE FINE AS MALES ARE XY ANYWAY.HE ALSO SAID THAT OF COURSE TWIN DOES COULD ALSO BE CHIMERAS BUT SINCE THEY ARE XX NO ONE EVER KNOWS ABOUT IT. SO I GUESS I WOULD TRY THE FINGER TEST AND GO FROM THERE, HOPE SHE PASSES!!


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

One more thing can you post photo of her face i want to see her eyelids. If she does have that early ovarian failure thing her eyelids should be heavy too.but on the bright side if she does you may get at least some offspring from such a beautiful creature. in history hermis are not a bad thing they are depicted as being the most beautiful of creatures. if you get a chance look up the artist MaxfieldParrish 's the Dinky Bird. is it a boy or a girl, i know but i'm not telling!! his paintings featured lots of hermis , but i'm getting off topic.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Okay thank you for that info enchantedgoats. 

That sounds a little weird! ... ^  

Here are some pictures of her face. Does that show you what you need to see? The first one is newborn, then about 2 weeks old and then 3 months old.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

Yes, thanks i think she may be one that will breed but not too many times. Wow she was a pudgey one so sweet.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Well, that's good.  

She always has been.  ^


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

enchantedgoats said:


> kns farm has an article on the internet about hermaphroditism in goats and i think WARPONY HAS BEEN HOLDING OUT ON US AS THEIR QUESTION WAS IN THE ARTICLE FROM LAST YEAR IN THE GOAT WHISPERER.


Wait, what?? lol! What have I been holding out on you guys? Just found this thread (OMG it has been busy around here, I am soooo far behind on threads!) and got a kick out of seeing my name.

I totally forgot about Epona's post about hermies.

For the record, the little brown moonspotted doeling with the white ears in my signature picture is the polled daughter of the polled buckling out of two polled parents that I mentioned in response to the hermie post on The Goat Whisperer blog (the doeling is out of a horned doe). Buck is fertile, doeling looks to be normal.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Here are some pictures of Liberty's private area, teats, and head. Her teats are definitely not small and are just as big if not bigger than our huge 9 month old doe. I don't know if this helps or not. 

I got a real good look at Poli's (Liberty's mom) rear end she doesn't have any sign of weirdness going on.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Man that is really funny looking!


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

Ack! I found this thread yesterday and have been praying that it's all just a lot of fuss over nothing as I tried to catch up between chores. My heart sunk when I saw it was about Liberty! She's just the most stunning doe I've ever seen and I show her picture to my friends as an example of excellent conformation for a meat breed. 

I hope it all turns out to be fine. Peggy Sue and I are rooting for her!


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

Did you do the the "finger tesr"? 
got another reply overnight dr. white retired fro vpi. about in fertile does . he says the reason is that hermis go unreported is that the breeders just ship their infertile does and unless the question is asked of the slaughter house about reproductive organs they go unreported. on the bright side he said that chimera hermaphroditeism is extremely rare, but does occur. he also suggested that if she is a chimera that you may want to contact a good school like uc davis or washington state that might want her for research of her genetic make up.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thank you Axykatt. It really is a shame it had to be this doe.  She has always been a favorite of ours and we were looking so forward to breeding her this spring. Maybe we still will be able to though. 

No I haven't tried. I wouldn't know what I'm doing with that, and since we're having her looked at by somebody who does know what they're doing tomorrow, I'm not going to try it.  

What would a school like one of those do with my goat after they are finished with her? Do you know?  I'm not about to ship her off somewhere where she will not be treated right and slaughtered afterwards...


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

i do believe that they would only want blood samples to begin with for dna analysis to see what type of hermi she is, and then when she dies or you decide it is her time to go they would take her for necropsy and examination of her reproductive parts they wouldnt do anything while she is alive.. they would put her to sleep not just shoot her in the head or anything, usually they cremate the remains and if you ask they will send her back to you, at least that is what we did when i was doing research... But I think she might be able to give alot of info for research. She could help with early ovarian failure in women. although i dont think the heavy eyelid thing is that imoportant..
but i think we are getting ahead of ourselves, lets cross that bridge when we get to it.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Still praying for a good outcome.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Prayers sent, the suspense is killing me, as well as I know it is killing you. Please let us know, as soon as you find out something.

You can also get her DNA tested, that will give better incite too.


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## goatgirlzCA (Mar 9, 2011)

Sending positive thoughts your way - I have been busy getting ready for fair and have not been on here much. I have always LOVED Liberty and sincerely hope for the best :hugs:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thank you.  I appreciate it! 

I'm hoping to get her looked at by Pat tomorrow at 3. She just lives 30 minutes from us so hopefully a quick trip. 

We had a full fun day at the beach with our horses.  Came back to that sweet red goat who always greats us at the gate. I so hope we can keep her! :tears:


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Prayers sent! I will be watching for an update!


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

positive thoughts!!! will be looking out for updates!


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## Frosty (Feb 13, 2010)

Wow what an interesting thread. I have learned a lot by reading this and heartbroken that it is liberty we are talking about. I sure hope she proves to be alright for you. You can send her to me and she can live here on my farm. lol. She is such a beauty. Now I will be going out and checking my goats out. The things we do to learn about them and care for them.. Sending best wishes to liberty and you that all is well. will be waiting to hear.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks.  

I'll give an update when we get back later today.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Some pictures of Liberty from today...  She really needs to cut a few pounds. 

Pat is going to be appalled here in an hour or so.  Poor Liberty... She's always been really chunky.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

That 2nd pic cracks me up!


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## goatgirlzCA (Mar 9, 2011)

OMG - does she sleep like that? I would be so freaked out that she was dead! That is too funny....


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## sandraH (Mar 1, 2013)

Yeah it can be confusing and upsetting. Find out and you will have peace mind. I hope it turns out like you want it too.


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## christinajh (Jan 24, 2013)

What a cute butterball!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She is so cute.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

Nice pics. Love the one of her on her back. I have a dog that sleeps like that all the time, except she is more straight on her back and has her legs all hanging to the side. She looks so funny.

Hoping for good news!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Her sleeping picture is too funny! :laugh:

She looks like a turtle turned on its shell.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

She is really cute.  No, she doesn't normally sleep like that. I just found her stuck on her back and took a picture! Silly girl. 

GREAT news from Pat!!!!!!! She saw nothing unusual and said Liberty has everything she needs to breed as far as she could tell with the speculum. Pat said she thinks Liberty will breed just fine! We are SOOO relieved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

Pat said "she's what 8 months?" I said no she's 6 1/2... and I got a blank stare. So I repeated "she's 6 1/2 months" and Pat said "whoa she's a monster, you'll want to breed her this year..."


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad there is no problem!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Thats GREAT news! I've been keeping an eye on this thread to see how everything was going, so glad that she is breedable! What a relief for you, love the pictures too


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Awesome


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Praise God!!


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## 7blessings (Jun 30, 2013)

Hallelujah!! Congratulations on such fantastic news!! I've been following this thread and have learned so much. Liberty is a gorgeous doe, and I can't wait to see her offspring!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

A huge weight has been lifted! I'm so happy! :dance::wahoo::stars::leap:

We'll try to breed her to Rich later this year and hope for the best! ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

And thank you all very much for your positive thoughts and support.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:fireworks::hugs::stars::birthday::hug: :laugh: :applaud::hi5::leap::leap::cheers::::wahoo::wahoo::wahoo::cake::crazy::dance::dance:

See, I knew it ~!!!! And so relieved for you. A big relief for sure. 

So Crossfire is only 6 1/2 months, he is a monster as well. They look much older.


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

:balloons::fireworks::wahoo::stars::leap:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Crossfire is bigger than Liberty by 30 pounds or so... Which is kind of strange as their mom is our shortest doe!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

How big is crossfire now?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Lol, posted at the same time, nevermind then


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I don't know what he is now but last I heard he was 150.  Pam?


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## Frosty (Feb 13, 2010)

Love the pictures and am so happy for you and her that it looks like a go to breed. She is one beauty that is for sure.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Wow!! Sooo happy for you two!! :hugs:


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Crossroads Boers said:


> GREAT news from Pat!!!!!!! She saw nothing unusual and said Liberty has everything she needs to breed as far as she could tell with the speculum. Pat said she thinks Liberty will breed just fine! We are SOOO relieved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Haha. told ya...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes, last time I weighed him, he was 150. 
Haven't weighed him since.

Was busy sorting goats for breeding today. Crossfire, is now officially with his Does, he will be breeding soon. He asked the Does, if they were interested, they said "no", a bit of a chase here and there, then, he laid down, LOL  

It was hilarious, when I put him in the breeding area, then started bringing Does to the pen. I got the first Doe in there and closed the Door, he jumped up on the door in panic mode and actually knocked on the door with his front hooves, as if saying, he didn't want me to leave him alone with the girl, LOL. After he discovered that the girls weren't such a bad thing, he settled down. Of course, when I went in to see how things were, he was right there following me around everywhere, wanting his attention from me. He is still adorable and loves me so. 
He is so hard to get pics of, cause he walks towards me, when I need him to stand back.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Pat knows her stuff, so glad you had her check out Liberty. Ahh now you can rest. What a huge relief!:gift:


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

wow that is so great!! may she have many babies. she is soo beautiful!!!!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thank you! This doe means so much to us, so we are so happy and thankful this isn't what it could have been.  Liberty got an extra big hug tonight.  

He sounds like quite the character Pam.  I bet he looks awesome (still!). It's been about two weeks since I saw new pictures BTW...  

You're right Nancy she does for sure. We are lucky to live so close to her. Pat does our disbudding for market wethers as well and is VERY good at it.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

*Happy sigh....*

 I was out tonight and kept wondering what was happening with Liberty. Had to check the minute i got home. I am so glad to hear the good news! Yay!


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

now we'll be looking for baby pictures when she kids!!! super happy for you and belle!!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

She better not go and give us a single traditional buck after all this...


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

If she does send it to me!!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Lol


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

This is such good news. She is a gorgeous girl.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Used2bmimi said:


> If she does send it to me!!!


Okie doke....  ^

Thank you WarPony.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I told a friend about what Pat said and got this response 

"She will likely be like " " ( one of their does who has the same thing) – able to breed. So the question becomes, should she be bred? I was reading, and I’m betting you were too, that these does tend to throw more bucks than does. The bucks should be fine, the does are the ones that could prove to be interesting. She will have a high % chance of passing on the problem and it becoming more dominate in her kids, and the does passing on the problem. That’s the dilemma, should it be passed on especially as part of a high quality breeding herd?" 

Their doe she mentioned kidded twin bucks this year. I still am having trouble believing this is something that will be passed down. Thoughts?


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

If Liberty were my goat.... I would consider what she has an insignificant cosmetic blemish that is not in any way a fault until proven otherwise. There is no such thing as a perfect goat.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Hmmm, the doe I have that quit producing (a cousin of the one that had no ovaries & the bucky doe) has had her share of doelings.
We as breeders take chances all the time. If it's not written in stone I tend to view things with a grain of salt.
Besides, as Sandy has so aptly said, "Goats always make us out to be liars."


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I agree with you Tim. I know if it were me though, I wouldn't tell someone something like that unless I believed it to be true. So it worries me some. BUT, we're still going to breed her and hope nothing happens with her doelings (of course she'll give us does)  

You're very right Nancy.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

very relieved!!! glad she'll be able to give you babies!!! and now, can't wait to see them all!!


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

Pat is a pretty highly respected repro expert, from the people I have seen mention her from your area. No offence to your friend but my understanding of the issue is far different from the things they have told you, and it sounds like Pat thinks she is fine (and I agree just going from my investigation/research into the issue when i was getting a buck from a polled to polled breeding which many people made sound like a certain recipe for gobs of hermies, lol) so I would carry on with my plans with no qualms about it at all.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks for your input.  Yes, Pat is very highly respected. She has been breeding goats for 40 years and has "seen it all".  She is very, very good at AI-ing too. I asked her about this being passed down and she wasn't sure if it would or not and didn't think it would. 

I think I'll try to find where my friend has been reading about it passing on, and see what it says exactly.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Crossroads Boers said:


> I think I'll try to find where my friend has been reading about it passing on, and see what it says exactly.


I'd like to read it too if you find it. Not that it would change my opinion for the time being.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

^ I asked for the link to the article and she said she didn't see it in an article... she heard it at a class... so that makes me doubt it even more!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

"Victoria, It will be great information if you document your doe’s progress through breeding, kids, etc. I was reading that to find this condition in horned goats is somewhat rare, but not unheard of. There are fewer reports written about horned goats than there are polled goats.

In polled goats they found genetic characteristics that create the perfect scenario for an intersex doe. So it is solidly found to be genetic in polled goats.

In horned goats, while a genetic connection can still apply, they also believe that this condition occurs in embryos in the uterus and is a transference of genetic ‘material’ between a male twin to his female twin. The degree that the female becomes more masculine is thought to be determined by how early in the pregnancy the transference of the genetic material happens. Early transference can lead to hermaphrodites, later transference leads to lesser degrees of masculinity. No discussion on this transference of genetic material was discussed as to if it a condition caused by the genetics of the mother or if it is totally related to the way the kids were attached to the placenta that allowed for an unusual exchange of traits. If I remember right, you said her twin was a buck, so this is completely possible.

So, while it seems pretty definitive for polled goats, as dairy goats have gotten a lot more attention and $$ spent to do the studies, it is not fully determined on horned goats. Let’s hope you are in luck and it is the result of a placenta transference. Visually, I’m guessing from my reading, that Pat was able to determine that the vaginal passage is full length and has a cervical opening. In many sterile goats the passage is not full length and basically has a dead end – it does not attach to reproductive organs. Only by putting her in for breeding will you be able to determine if she is fully female and can reproduce. You’d also be able to document if her doelings show the same physical characteristics and if her doelings shared the uterus with a twin buck or another doe. It could prove useful to folks who face this issue in the future to know your experiences."


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

I thought that the transference of genetic material between in utero opposite sex twins was what caused freemartins, not hermaphrodites. 

There is also a lot of disagreement on the link between polled genetics and hermaphrodites, because several studies done since the original study have not found the same link. 

Unfortunately, there is a woeful lack of research into this and an awful lot what is "known" about it is just opinion, or supposition based on limited personal experience that may or may not be accurately interpreted, not fact. That doesn't mean the opinion is wrong, just that for the most part there isn't much real science to back up many of the opinions on the issue (including mine, lol).


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Well, I have no idea about that... All of this is new to me!  

That is very interesting^ 

We'll know soon enough what this is all about I guess. We're going to breed her for June kids (hopefully!!).


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

If you are concerned about her passing problems onto offspring, why not get her tested? If you had the genetic info to go along with your visual assumptions, you could stop guessing yourself. If your goal is to better the breed, I'd have all the info necessary rather than take a gamble and a wait and see approach.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It would be a good idea, to have her tested for peace of mind. I see it is still bothering you, with the way she is setup up back there. 
Liberty, is most likely OK. As I said before, I had a Doe, that had a BB size thing there. She gave me all good producing kids for many years. There was one kid out of all born, that had the same thing, but she too was OK with producing good kids. They had bucks and does, not just bucks.

Also, Liberty is at an age where, she would be acting bucky, if she had an issue. she appears to be very feminine.
Her being big in size has nothing to do with anything. That is good genetics. Her brother is really big too. 

I really recommend though, you get her tested. It will relieve your mind . Worrying is not a good thing and that is a long wait, to be able to find out for sure. I am not recommending that you test her because I suspect she has an issue, it is that you are going to drive yourself batty. :hammer::wallbang::crazy:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I agree it would be a good idea to test her.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Hugs


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## bayouboergoats (Dec 30, 2012)

Ok i have been busy lately so i am reading reading reading. To catch up with all of the goat info. 

I am so sorry about Liberty! I feel your pain. 

However I have an older doe who has a bump that looks alot like that I think if i am not mistaken and she has kidded twice for me already and several times with the previous owner and had no problems. I dont have any pics right now but I will take some tomorrow so I can compare. I never thought anything about it just assumed she had gotten loose over the years. Lmbo


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Hi Amber! Good to hear from you! Yea, I have heard that from several breeders... that they have does with the same thing that breed just fine! So we are very hopeful!


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