# CL abscess?



## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

I shot a video of my 2yr alpine doe who about a week ago suddenly developed an abscess or cyst on her right cheek on the jaw directly under her ear about the size of a golf ball. What is the next step I should take to ascertain what it is? Vet? Cull? We were trying to breed her to my Nubian buck, but I do not want a CL animal in my herd.

It shows no sign of thinning skin or balding, is neither firm nor very soft. We are new goat owners of just a few months, and have never had any animals tested for CAE, CL, or Johne's. She was wormed recently, but has had no other medical care of which I am aware.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

If I were to take a guess I would say cl. I posted this on the other post, but will go again  to give you a idea if it might be cl, get a needle and syringe and try to pull fluid out, if no fluid its a goood chance cl. as long as the hair is not falling off the puss is too thick to pull it out. No one can really answer what to do on the vet but you, is she worth the vet bill and tests?? If it was me and I really liked the goat I would test her. If your going to go threw the vet though, treat it like cl and just put her in a small pen by herself, that way if it is cl and it does burst its not all over the place.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would have the vet out and take care of it and make sure he/she tests the pus. Until the pus is tested, you really don't know for sure.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

Yup, testing the pus is the only way to know for sure, the rest is speculation and guessing. 

If she is worth it to you, get the vet out to lance and gather the pus for a testing. If not, you need to have her put down to minimize the risk to your other animals or having someone else end up with her.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Unfortunately, that is almost certainly CL. Watch it closely, isolate her and call the vet when the hair starts to come off, get it lanced, cleaned out, and give a course of antibiotics to kill any bacteria still in her system. Make sure the pus does not drain onto the ground - put down plastic bags of some type. Burn everything used to clean it out and collect the pus. If you do that, you will probably never have a recurrence.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

anyone a fan of this method using formalin?

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/CLFormalin.html

I know it is carcinogenic, but better than putting her to sleep.

I will call the vet in the morning (we have a great vet near us who is only $35 for an exam), and see if I can get her in once the hair starts to fall off of the cyst. It is still fairly firm.

If we decide to lance and drain it, we'll do it at his office and let him handle it. I'm not quite ready for that yet.

Funny, my 6yr daughter had her lymph node on her jaw under her ear swell up like that a few months ago, pretty scary. After spending all day at the pediatrician's, the pediatric dentist, the oral surgeon, and then pediatric ultrasound, they finally decided it was just a simple case of cat scratch fever! The golf ball went away on its own after a few weeks. Sad that it is not so simple with my poor little goat


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## jddolan (Mar 31, 2013)

I just ordered formalin,I tyed it last night on a abscess ,I injected some in it but when I pulled needle out bit just oozed so I ended up opening it up and draining,I think if I would have caught it earlier,may have worked better so well see,experimenting with it,ended up flushing it with it,I ordered it from vetserv usa


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Yes, that would be nice. Better yet would be to have a cure for CL. I guess if you're going to dream, dream big. :laugh: No, I'm not a fan of the formalin option. I looked into it, did my research, and decided it wasn't for me. I raise meat goats for slaughter and the USDA tests for that and has a zero tolerance policy. Couple that with the fact that all of my goats have premise ID tags, and I'm out of business if even one tests positive. There is also the fact that the formalin has been known to seep out of the abcess and into the surrounding tissue, thus causing problems. I believe I'll pass.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

We have her as a dairy goat, our only female (1 buck and 2 wethers). If she is not intended for slaughter or resale, would the formalin be a viable option? USDA tests for formalin? Odd the meat producer near me who has the site I linked uses it on her meat goats and didn't mention that. i wonder why they don't have to deal with that; maybe because they are selling breeding stock rather than animals for slaughter?

I will discuss options with the vet, if he would rather lance or inject, and if we should vaccinate them all with the new-ish goat CL vaccine. I ordered formalin anyway from santa cruz biotech.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Could be that they are raising breeding stock, could also be that they don't use premise ID tags. An excerpt from the following document:

http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0085/

Note on formaldehyde treatment: 
Although formaldehyde is effective in treating abscesses it can be caustic and irritant to the skin, mucosa membranes, and lungs. Formaldehyde is toxic, can be diffused through the skin to other organs, and has an accumulative effect in the goat's body. Formaldehyde is also a carcinogenic agent to humans and is not allowed in animals, including those consumed by humans. Some producers have reported losses of animals after the inoculation of formaldehyde in the treatment of CL abscesses. Formaldehyde can be found in the meat and milk after being infused in abscesses.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

Vet said the exam and lancing would be about $60 at his office, so I could watch and learn without having to do it myself and clean up. So we are waiting for it to head up and bald a little to take her in. This way he can test the pus too so I will know better if she ever gets another tumor if it is CL for sure.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

Had it lanced this morning.

YUCK!!!

With any luck I will never have to do it myself, but not holding out much hope for that. So glad I watched a vet do it first and was able to ask questions. If anyone develops another, I ordered formalin to at least try it and compare what I prefer.

He advised against vaccinating: said it is still too ineffective with too many side effects, and my herd isn't large enough to justify the expense of an autogenous vax. He also said there's really no reason to test the pus since it was pretty obviously CL.

Sent her home with slip syringes and triodine to wash it out every day until it scabs over and she can go back in with the herd. She is also definitely not pregnant


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I'm sorry that it turned out to be CL. Maybe she's got a great immune system going and will never have another incident.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

Follow up: the vet didnt tell me to wash out the abscess sac until I asked him about it, and he said I could. But now I cant find anything about whether and how long I should. Now I wonder if it is important enough to bother. He washed it out with iodine twice at his office (filled the sac, sloshed, drained), and I have iodine with slip syringes here at home. Is it necessary to repeat for a few days?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes its important to flush it a few times a day for 3-4 days...keeping the bacteria cleaned out until the wall of the cyst is thin and healing will help preent a second cyst from forming...If it scabs over too soon, you need to remove the scab and keep flushing...use iodine to flush..once the walls are thin you can let it heal..once it heals to the point no chance on oozing then the goat can return to the herd...If you dont flush and bacteria is still in there..it will heal then before you know it a second, usually larger cyst grows...its well worth the pain of flushing 2-3 times a day for 3-4 days...take care with the flushing..wear gloves and use tons of paper towels to catch anything draining and put it all in a zip lock baggie to burn or toss...


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Yes, I would definitely wash it out until it starts to heal. 1 - it keeps it clean and kills any new pus, and 2 - prevents a secondary infection from starting. Did he give her antibiotics or tell you to give her some?

PS I'm sorry it was CL. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

No antibiotics. No real follow up prescribed. Busy no frills practice but everyone around here loves the place. She is doing well. Some scabby exudate this morning after not washing it yesterday; i cleaned off. Wound only fits about 3cc iodine now down from 10 or 12 the day it was lanced. Not scabbed over yet so will continue to fill it with iodine until it does. It is hard since I need help holding her to do it.

Trying to think of anything helpful for anyone reading this later with the same issue...


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

She got another abscess and it burst today  How do you clean up afterward? I was thinking a bleach or maybe vinegar dilution in a yard sprayer, but what can I put on my other goats directly?

For those of you who choose the manage and not cull CL goats, any advice you can give? I think she may be pregnant due in January. Do you vaccinate the rest of the herd? Do you allow the kid to nurse? Can you consume the milk after the colostrum is gone?

I could rehome her to a non-breeding farm, but I feel now that any breeding animals I bring in will be exposed also, so I fear I will never be able to have a goat in milk for our family's use. My neighbor's goats are CL positive now as well, and they share a fence line.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Cleaning will be hard..we used bleach and soaked everything that could have been touched,pipes, walls fences, feeders..everything, we removed all top soil and soaked the ground.....all goats to be moved from the area....CL can live for several years in the ground...
The cyste will need to be cleaned and flushed with an iodine solution 3 -4 times a day until you see the walls thinned...this could take 3-5 days...once the wall is thin you can allow it to close up.

for her herd mates...move them from th area she burst...check them for puss stains, you can wash with a vinegar water solution, we used a product called Benefect from tropical traditions...off line..its a natural disinfect and safe for the goats, clean their hooves, scrub the hooves with a light bleach solution..

http://www.householdtraditions.com/benefect.htm


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm assuming you've isolated her, moved the other goats, and the area is small. Catch her and finish cleaning out the abscess being careful to not let it get on the ground. 

Mix up a 50% bleach and water solution and put it in a spray bottle. Put on a pair of sturdy plastic gloves and empty all feeders and waterers and spray them down. Let it dry and rinse. Spray fences and shelters and let it dry. Bleach really will not do any good on the ground because coming into contact with manure negates it. What you can do though is pick up all straw, hay, leaves, etc - don't rake them up, just get a pitch fork and pick them up so you don't turn anything over that could have pus on it. When it gets into the soil is when you have a long term problem, usually. If your pen is mostly dirt, pile everything up in the middle and burn it if possible. Get some ag lime and sprinkle it pretty heavy throughout the pen - shelter, too. Or if you know anyone with a skid steer that come in and take of the top inch or so of dirt, do that instead. Can you keep the non-infected goats in another pen for a few months? If so, do that. Sunlight will kill the CL bacteria if it can get to it.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

emmapal said:


> I could rehome her to a non-breeding farm, but I feel now that any breeding animals I bring in will be exposed also, so I fear I will never be able to have a goat in milk for our family's use. My neighbor's goats are CL positive now as well, and they share a fence line.


Not necessarily. CL is not difficult to clean up until it gets in the soil or on wooden surfaces. As for your neighbors goats, a double fence with about a foot or so between them will keep your goats from coming in direct contact with their goats. CL is not airborne unless the abscess is in the animals lungs. It is not passed through milk unless there is an abscess in the animals udder. Goats generally develop external abscess, not internal. In most cases, CL requires direct contact with broken skin to infect.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

depressing: the pen is heavily treed, very rocky, etc.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Oh Emma, I'm sorry. Try the ag lime, then. According to what I've read it is a disinfectant and, where the abscess just burst and there has been no rain or snow to help it penetrate, it might work.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh no  you do not want it to burst around the others  happy bleats is right its going to be a pain to clean the puss is so dang this and she sheds it as she walks. I read about cl not too long ago and the puss...disease thrives in cool damp so try and keep things as dry as you can. When its dry and warm it is believed to only survive for a few months. But what do they consider warm??? As for milk the cl will only pass there the milk if she has a abscess in the bag and from my understanding its not a hard thing to miss when you milk and puss comes out. Even then if I were to drink the milk I would probably pasturize it even if you see no puss. If you are going to manage it I would make a 'sick pen' that is just for the ones that get a abscess. Put in when the abscess starts to loose hair and do not take out till it is totally healed.


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## mmiller (Apr 3, 2012)

This is just me but I would have went ahead an sent the pus in for testing. I had a goat come up with a lump in the same spot an just knew it was CL. The vet lanced it an said he was almost sure it was CL. Test came back an she didn't have it so now I always test. That being said you have gotten some good advice on how to deal with CL an sounds like you are doing the best you can with the situation. Good luck.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

it did burst in the pen with the other goats, and they do have pus on their fur. I was planning to use formalin on it, but I didn't have any needle syringes. My husband made a run to Tractor Supply yesterday to pick some up, but by the time I got home yesterday, it was already burst. DUMB! Since I was planning to inject it, between the holiday and as a newbie, the "minor detail" of take her out of the main pen didn't occur to me; I didn't even consider that it might burst, and so quickly. That was the most important part of this!

Since we have had them in the large back pasture, I have not been keeping as close an eye on them as when they were all in the little paddock together.
I pulled her out last night and finished treating the abscess as if I had lanced it. Had I pulled her out earlier, I would have just that tiny area to clean. Thanksgiving

I have so much work to do today because of this. I'm just shuddering


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

After reading and talking to my vet about formalin....I personally wouldn't use it. From the info I can get formalin is extremely painful....as in torturously so. If you really want to keep the goat separate, lance abd treat until clear. Vaccinate herd. Just my opinion


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I have never tested my herd but I am 99.9% sure I have some running around with cl. I have had a few abscesses show up that fit the bill. My first doe had a abscess and it bursted in the main pen.....I had no idea about cl. I wanted goats so went out and bought goats. I sold a buck and some does he was new to goats so I told him it would be a good idea to test them till he decides if he wants to deal with cl and cae and they all came out clean. So with all that being said your goats are not 100% doomed. As for the formulin I used it on one doe and didn't seem to hurt her. It might be that the abscess wasn't in a sensitive spot but she seemed fine about it. I just found it a total pain going out and chasing her every day to see if its ready so find penning and lancing is more easy and less stressful for both her and I.


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## mmiller (Apr 3, 2012)

Can you describe what the puss looked like when the vet lanced it? I don't know a lot about CL but is it common for a cyst to show up an burst over nite? Maybe it does when the spot has just been lanced? The reason I ask is cause the doe I had tested had several lumps an they seemed to show up over nite an burst. Now that Im thinking about it the vet never did tell me what it was an I was so relieved it wasn't CL that I never thought about it, huh I need a kick in the butt for that!!


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I've never had a CL abscess show up and burst overnight, but the length of time between when it appears and when it bursts does vary a lot. The size of the actual abscess can vary, also.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

I don't have any lime, but I do have DE. What about spraying a dilution of formalin on the pen and leaving it unoccupied for a while? Any better than a bleach dilution?


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I would not use formalin for anything. It is a known carcinogen, and you are leaving yourself and everything in the immediate area open to breathing it in, mist drifting and getting on your skin, and it's some very nasty stuff!


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

Not overnight, but I did not remove her from the herd since I have to tether her. I figured I would just use the formalin and would not need to have her tethered for more than a few days after the injection. But over Thanksgiving I was distracted by, you know, Thanksgiving, and it burst more quickly after I found it than I expected, just a few days.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Emma, cut yourself some slack! There is not a producer or owner that has not made this same kind of mistake at some point or another. You are human just like the rest of us. All you can do is learn from it, adjust how you do things going forward, and pick up the pieces.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

There is just no way I can do this! It is impossible to spray everywhere she might have been. There is not topsoil other than scattered about with rocks, heavy underbrush. Just impossible. I am bleach spraying the places they spend the most time, but this task is just beyond me.

What now?


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Do the best you can....that's all you can do. I've been there too. Vaccinate everybody and hope for the best.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

GoatCrazy said:


> Emma, cut yourself some slack! There is not a producer or owner that has not made this same kind of mistake at some point or another. You are human just like the rest of us. All you can do is learn from it, adjust how you do things going forward, and pick up the pieces.


Well put!!!!


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

Trying to erect a sick pen, sprayed bleach dilution as well as I could, and we are burning excess brush in the pen. All the animals' feet were sprayed with vinegar dilution, and the goats entirely doused with it.

Can you recommend which vaccine you prefer and how you chose which one? Can I vaccinate my doe once her lesion is healed?


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I don t think there is a big selection of vaccines out there. The vaccine is not effective for one showing symptons


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

The vaccine is like the flu vaccine..good for one kind of strain...the most effective vaccination is costly...they will need some of the puss from the cl to create a vaccine for the strain on your ranch...This is not cost effective for most producers...imo..your best bet is to do the best you can to clean and disinfect, It will take time...keep watch on all your goats ....CL can remain around for a long time..so do monthly rub downs checking for lumps...have your CL pen ready for any one who has a CL that is getting ripe...learn to lance and clean the CL yourself..be patient with each Goat..dont throw them back in the herd too soon...the CL should be completly healed. Most importantly...breath, take your time..know that this is going to take a while and make a plan of action...it took us ....oh 2-3 years to stop seeing CL...and we havent seen it since..5+ years now....Like Goatcrazy said, Dont beat your self up..we can only do what we can do!..Just do your best...pace yourself..
and I totally agree with Goatcrazy about formalin...I would never chance it....too many risks!!


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

Any way to test the pus to determine which brand of vaccine to purchase?

Do you bring pus sample to vet for testing, or can I mail it out myself somewhere?


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

The lancing and irrigating is no big deal, but washing it out every day is a huge pain for me since I don't have help to hold her down every day. My kids aren't strong enough, and my husband isn't available enough (he helps me, but can't do it every day; I haven't been able to irrigate it again at all since Friday night when I drained it). That is why the formalin approach sounds better to me if handled safely.


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