# Father/Daughter..Mother/Son



## Itchysmom

I know, I am thinking too much today!

Anyway...I know you can breed father to daughter with little to no problems, but can you breed mother to son? My does are a breeding of father to daughter and they are nice. I hear this done all the time...but I never hear mother and son breeding in anything..horses, dogs, goats,etc. Why is this not done? Does this cross have problems?


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## KW Farms

I don't see the difference in this, though I have heard father/daughter is acceptable and mother/son isn't. I personally think it's pretty much the same thing. :shrug: 

...I have an AQHA mare result of a mother to son breeding. She's a nice little mare. Any close relative breeding like this though I tend to shy away from. I just don't like the genetics that restricted...but some of these breedings turn out fabulous. :thumb:


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## RMADairyGoats

I agree that there is no difference. If the pair is awesome and they have the traits that you are looking for than I would not see an issue with it.


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## Itchysmom

Kinda why I am asking is that I see father/daughter breeding, but not so much, if at all the other way around. Most line breeding I have seen has been F/D.


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## Springbett Farm

Someone mentioned this little poem in a miniature horse forum as an acceptable way of line breeding: Father to daughter, mother to son, but brother to sister should never be done.


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## Graffogefarms

curious here - would it be full brother to full sister or half brother to half sister, - example different mothers - but same father? how would that work?


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## KW Farms

Full siblings is what they're talking about. Half siblings are "safer" than sire/daughter dam/son breedings.


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## Itchysmom

See, I didn't know that about half siblings. So say you kept a buckling from a doe who had a doeling the previous year. You would be safer breeding this buckiling (same dam, different sire) to his half sister from the year before than his dam?


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## mommaB

Very interesting....I have "heard" that son to mother will show you faults in that line?


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## KW Farms

Yes, technically, Itchysmom...you'd be safer going with the half sibling breeding vs. dam/son sire/daughter breedings, however, if these two goats showed some kind of flaw or issue you might be better off going with the other breeding. Think of the goats as unrelated...then look at the conformation, udders, breeding ability, etc. if you don't think the half siblings or the son to dam will cross well then don't breed them. 

When you get this close with breedings you're likely going to see the traits exaggerated...good or bad. With half siblings, the genetics are widened vs. those very close breedings. 

Tisie, I have heard that too...son to mother is never a good cross, but it is basically the same thing as daughter to father so I don't know where that came from...why that would be ok, but not the mother to son. I haven't found anything on it really to prove it's not "ok".


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## Itchysmom

Would it have to do with the genetics? Males carry certain ones and does carry theirs. So, A sire/daughter would have a different genetic makeup than a dam/son one would. Interesting!

So, help me out with this:

Three does related as such...Sasha and Saphira are dam/daughter. Sasha was bred to Washington to get Saphira. Bella is Sasha's cousin (?) she is from the same sire but different mother. Mother to Bella was Sasha's sister from the same dad. So, Bella was bred back to her dad. Got it so far? LOL

If all three were bred to a different sire, not Washington but buck X..then could I save a buckling from one of the three and breed all three to that buckling? Obviously one doe would be bred to her son, the other two the buck would be a cousin?


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## toth boer goats

> Yes, technically, Itchysmom...you'd be safer going with the half sibling breeding vs. dam/son sire/daughter breedings, however, if these two goats showed some kind of flaw or issue you might be better off going with the other breeding. Think of the goats as unrelated...then look at the conformation, udders, breeding ability, etc. if you don't think the half siblings or the son to dam will cross well then don't breed them.
> 
> When you get this close with breedings you're likely going to see the traits exaggerated...good or bad. With half siblings, the genetics are widened vs. those very close breedings.
> 
> Tisie, I have heard that too...son to mother is never a good cross, but it is basically the same thing as daughter to father so I don't know where that came from...why that would be ok, but not the mother to son. I haven't found anything on it really to prove it's not "ok".
> Kylee


 I agree... :thumb:

You have to be very careful with the flaws....if they both have the same flaws... I wouldn't attempt it....but.. if both are good...One should compliment the other with the good ..verses the bads... It is a 50/50 gamble when breeding so close.... it can either be a nightmare or a very good animal that is born.... :wink:


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## sweetgoats

I will say I have had son bred mother and twin sister. I was NOT planning on that at all, but I did not know it took place either. 

I have had a LOT of very close relations bred with no problems and Grand Champions out of it, but I have also had some well lets just say not so good results.

I never plan on doing it that close but it does happen. Normally they say it will really accent on the BAD trates you have.


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## Itchysmom

So, I think I figured it out. Here is what I came up with...remember that if kids do not sell they will be in my freezer, whether they are wethers or doelings.. I will not keep any doe offspring to breed back.

Sasha (saanen) to X Buck ( Nubian) so not related
Bella (saanen) to same X Buck (nubian) so , again not related
Keep a buckling from Bella, we will call him XX Buck

Breed following year....
Sasha to XX Buck...no relation
Bella to XX Buck....Mother/son
Saphira (doe from Sasha and X Buck) to XX Buck... Same sire different dam

This all hinges on what Bella throws. I do not want to keep a buckling from Sasha as I think it is tooo close to Saphira that way, would be full brother/sister instead of half siblings? Anyway, as I said I do not plan on keeping any of the kids.


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## Bellafire Farm

The more "triangles"...the better the outcoming kids should be.... look at this article for a description http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/issues/83/83-6/Alice_G_Hall.html. Straight lines, such as with full sibling breedings is NOT something you would want to strive for. Sibling breedings usually turn out very poorly as it really brings out the bad traits more than the desired good traits. But father to daugher breedings & mother to son breedings (of course only with top quality genetics, because you'll be sort-of doubling up genetics) should help to bring out the best of the genetics. Again, it's important to only do this with the 'cream of the crop' genetics...otherwise you'll just be shooting yourself in the foot and wasting an entire year or more. Try to make sure your 'triangles' are pointing to the Champion animals in the pedigree, & not just the so-so animals.
I would only consider 'doubling up' on genetics if the sire/dam were of Champion quality and/or very highly appraised during an official appraisal, and the breeding offspring was also. If they weren't, then you could be really setting your entire breeding program back in a big way.

*I haven't finished my cup of coffee, and this is difficult to explain via typing, so hopefully it's making sense :shrug: I can honestly say that if you do utilize your triangles to point to those Champions, you can potentially come out with some outstanding babies!!


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