# FF labor gone wrong



## Robin Lee (Apr 4, 2020)

So in my newbie ignorance I bought a 14 month old ND doe due to kid within 2 weeks. She was much smaller than my other 2 does but I was assured that she was a normal size for her breed. She was maybe 40lbs full term. When she went into labor I put her in a kidding stall and watched her on my camera as she didn't really want me present. After she was actively pushing for about 45 min - 1 hour and starting to wear out I went out to assess. I found the kid a few inches from coming out presenting with the head and 1 front leg. The kid was not coming out this way so I reluctantly tried to re position it. I had a lot of trouble as there was so little room. I was finally able to get the 2nd leg but the head flopped around and I couldn't retrieve it. We ended up losing the doe and the kid. It was a terrible experience I am not eager to repeat. I am left wondering if I could have something different or if this poor little doe was doomed from the start since she was so small. Just looking for some thoughts from those that are more knowledgeable.


----------



## Andie Harness (Apr 5, 2020)

I am so sorry for your loss.

I strongly believe in not breeding small does due to mother and/or baby passing before or during birth. After 45 minutes of the doe pushing, you should intervene and help the doe. A baby can be born perfectly with a head and 1 leg sticking out. The mother may have had a harder time pushing the baby out due to her being so small, but that was a normal birthing position. I am curious about the bucks breed. If he was a larger breed than her, it's incredibly dangerous for the doe and kid.

Being part of the birthing experience is amazing and breath-taking. If you ever want to breed a doe again, I recommend waiting until at least 2 years old and/or waiting until they're fully grown. 

Reading this has made me sick. I highly doubt the people you bought your doe from had any experience with breeding. Very sad.


----------



## Robin Lee (Apr 4, 2020)

Thanks Andie.

I have been doing a bunch of reading on the birthing process and there seems to be mixed opinions on whether a 1 foot presentation needs to be corrected. I really did not want to interfere in the birth but after almost an hour of pushing she was just starting to wear out. The baby was not presenting outside the birth canal, it was a few inches in but I could feel 1 foot and the face. Maybe she needed more time? Gah. I'ts just really hanging heavy on me here that I either messed things up by not doing enough or doing too much.

The people I got the little doe from had a herd of 10ish that they just ran in a leased pasture miles from their house and just let them kid out unassisted. Their buck seemed on the big end of normal for a Nigerian. Looking back I should have just walked away from purchasing this doe.

I have 2 other ND does that I bought pregnant from a different breeder that kidded with no complications in Feb. I guess having those successful births made me feel more relaxed than I should have.


----------



## Andie Harness (Apr 5, 2020)

Robin Lee said:


> Thanks Andie.
> 
> I have been doing a bunch of reading on the birthing process and there seems to be mixed opinions on whether a 1 foot presentation needs to be corrected. I really did not want to interfere in the birth but after almost an hour of pushing she was just starting to wear out. The baby was not presenting outside the birth canal, it was a few inches in but I could feel 1 foot and the face. Maybe she needed more time? Gah. I'ts just really hanging heavy on me here that I either messed things up by not doing enough or doing too much.
> 
> ...


You should always be on your toes during a birth, no matter how experienced. Don't be so hard on yourself, this was the breeders fault. Best of luck to all of you!


----------



## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

I am so sorry you lost the new addition to your family. Sometimes it is better to walk away. Dont beat yourself up. It was Natures way of being kind to the doe.


----------



## lada823 (Apr 2, 2018)

I raise full sized goats but I have successfully bred and had does kid when they were just over a year old. I go by weight, not age. That said when you buy a bred doe you just have no idea. What was her nutrition like? What buck was she bred to, how big was she when bred, etc. One foot and a head presentation is a variation of normal. I get antsy during a birth and if the doe has been pushing for a half hour I help. Don't beat yourself up over this, it is all a learning experience.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am sorry for the loss. 

30-45 minute rule: If nothing is on the ground by that time frame. 
Wash up and go in.

If you see a head and 1 leg, that is OK, you can help pull the kid and do not need to find the other leg.

If the kid has big shoulders or head, it can hold things up and make her stall in labor. At that point, she may of needed to be manually dilated a bit more to get the kid out.

If you ever feel there is trouble and do not feel you can do it, call a vet right away.


----------



## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm so sorry you had such a sad introduction to what should be an exciting, joyous experience. One leg forward, one leg back is a fairly normal presentation although not totally ideal. However, waiting longer would not have helped the doe birth naturally. You did the right thing by intervening but probably your lack of experience was what caused the kid's head to turn back in the process of retrieving the second foot. If the kid was already expired, this could also have caused the head to flop back. Once the head turns back you have a very bad presentation on your hands and it's very difficult to turn, and maybe even impossible in a small doe. 

If you encounter this problem again and you're sure the nose is in position, go for the one foot. Pull it forward and down until it is outside the doe. Rotating the shoulder frees up room in the birth canal for the head to come out. Feel to make sure the kid's head is still in position. If it is, you can do one of two things. You can either pull the kid out by the one leg (a slightly tighter fit), or you can feel carefully along the head (making sure you don't accidentally turn it backwards!) and see if you can find the other front leg. You might have to feel down both sides of the neck and shoulder because it's not usually obvious which leg you already have out. If you find the other leg, hook a finger behind the knee and gently pull it forward under the chin. At that point the kid should be in the classic diving position and ready to come out. Pull it out and down with the doe's contractions. If she stopped pushing you'll just have to pull without her help. If I'm concerned that a baby's head might flop back, I put my fingertips over the top of the nose or head to help guide it along the birth canal while I pull on the leg(s) with the other hand. 

I hope your next birthing experience is delightful to make up for this nightmare.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh Im so sorry you and goat mama went through that! Pam and damfino offer sound advice. A few other tips would be stand mom up sometimes offers more room to work..if not elevate moms back end to open more space up.

I also wait until my does are 18 to 24 months old AND good size. I have assisted many births with one leg presented. It depends on how the other leg is laid out. Is all the way back and flush to the side, its good to go...but if the other leg is bent at the elbow, I like to pull it forward. If babies head falls back unretrievable then it's a game changer. Time is not your friend for babies sake. Then you factor in moms small, leaving little to no room to work in..well that rarely ends well. You did your best.


----------



## Robin Lee (Apr 4, 2020)

Damfino said:


> I'm so sorry you had such a sad introduction to what should be an exciting, joyous experience. One leg forward, one leg back is a fairly normal presentation although not totally ideal. However, waiting longer would not have helped the doe birth naturally. You did the right thing by intervening but probably your lack of experience was what caused the kid's head to turn back in the process of retrieving the second foot. If the kid was already expired, this could also have caused the head to flop back. Once the head turns back you have a very bad presentation on your hands and it's very difficult to turn, and maybe even impossible in a small doe.
> 
> If you encounter this problem again and you're sure the nose is in position, go for the one foot. Pull it forward and down until it is outside the doe. Rotating the shoulder frees up room in the birth canal for the head to come out. Feel to make sure the kid's head is still in position. If it is, you can do one of two things. You can either pull the kid out by the one leg (a slightly tighter fit), or you can feel carefully along the head (making sure you don't accidentally turn it backwards!) and see if you can find the other front leg. You might have to feel down both sides of the neck and shoulder because it's not usually obvious which leg you already have out. If you find the other leg, hook a finger behind the knee and gently pull it forward under the chin. At that point the kid should be in the classic diving position and ready to come out. Pull it out and down with the doe's contractions. If she stopped pushing you'll just have to pull without her help. If I'm concerned that a baby's head might flop back, I put my fingertips over the top of the nose or head to help guide it along the birth canal while I pull on the leg(s) with the other hand.
> 
> I hope your next birthing experience is delightful to make up for this nightmare.


Thanks for your insight. I have a few more questions if you wouldn't mind. When you do need to reach in is it normal to be able to adjust the kids position while the kid is engaged in the pelvis? I had to push the kid back and put my hand through the pelvis to even try to rearrange the presentation and it was TIGHT. I would say my hand is average sized but it barely fit through and there was no chance I could hold onto anything and pull it through. Maybe that was normal with a small doe? Would it have been a good idea to use some rope to tie the head and front leg I initially did have together so I didn't lose them? Maybe it would have been better to just try and pull the kid with the head and 1 leg?


----------



## lada823 (Apr 2, 2018)

I would probably have just pulled on the one leg rather than try to push it back in and fish for the other leg. I've had a couple present like that and they were born with just a little help. I only push them back if they're coming out nose first with no feet.


----------



## Robin Lee (Apr 4, 2020)

lada823 said:


> I would probably have just pulled on the one leg rather than try to push it back in and fish for the other leg. I've had a couple present like that and they were born with just a little help. I only push them back if they're coming out nose first with no feet.


Noted for next time. Since she had been pushing for 45-60 mins I thought maybe baby couldn't fit out without the other leg. Do you just commit and pull however hard it takes to get the kid out?


----------



## lada823 (Apr 2, 2018)

Robin Lee said:


> Noted for next time. Since she had been pushing for 45-60 mins I thought maybe baby couldn't fit out without the other leg. Do you just commit and pull however hard it takes to get the kid out?


Yes you sometimes have to pull rather hard. Like I've had to brace myself against the stall with one foot and pull. It's not pleasant; the doe is screaming bloody murder and you're also probably screaming. I am not the most experienced but I've never had a kid not come through with one foot and a head.

That said it's entirely possible your girl was just too small to birth the kid no matter what its presentation had been. Completely possible. She might have ended up needing a c-section.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

45 minutes is maximum, do not wait anymore than that.


----------



## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Robin Lee said:


> Thanks for your insight. I have a few more questions if you wouldn't mind. When you do need to reach in is it normal to be able to adjust the kids position while the kid is engaged in the pelvis? I had to push the kid back and put my hand through the pelvis to even try to rearrange the presentation and it was TIGHT. I would say my hand is average sized but it barely fit through and there was no chance I could hold onto anything and pull it through. Maybe that was normal with a small doe? Would it have been a good idea to use some rope to tie the head and front leg I initially did have together so I didn't lose them? Maybe it would have been better to just try and pull the kid with the head and 1 leg?


It is not really possible to reposition a kid IN the birth canal. As you discovered, there's just no room between those pelvic bones! If you can pull one leg out it frees up a lot of room in the birth canal and you should then be able reach your hand past the kid's shoulder to reposition the head, the other leg, etc. It's tight, but usually you can manage once the shoulder rotates so the elbow is out of the way. In this case I would have most likely pulled the kid by just the one leg. When there's no room to work, the danger of pushing the head back in and then losing it is too great.

It's not your fault. I lost a kid once too because he was coming shoulder-first with his head reaching back to his tail. The doe was big but she hadn't dilated properly and she was STRONG! Me and a vet worked for a couple of hours and couldn't bring that head round. We lost the kid but I was eventually able to get him out. The key in that case was that I needed to push both feet back in and just go for the head. Once I had the head completely out I was able to reach in past the skinny little neck and retrieve the legs. I often wonder if I could have saved that kid if I'd have forgotten about finding the legs and had gone for the head first. Everything you read says "bring both legs out first," but I'm not sure this is always the best advice. In a head back presentation, there's so little room to work already that once you bring those legs out it's next to impossible to even reach the head, let alone reposition it.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

First I am so very sorry your first kidding went this way. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. I also want to say you are a awesome person! Your not taking this as a simple loss but a learning experience to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Not many people do that. 
So a few things. I think ultimately the root issue is a small doe. Small does really are terrible when things go wrong. Even if one can end up getting a kid out having to reposition is so hard on them because of the lack of room. 
The buck. Just for the future in this, I promise you, a wonderful adventure in goats, the size of the buck, as long as it’s the same breed, doesn’t mean much. The bucks are usually always going to be larger then does. Also the largest buck I have ever had threw the most consistently small kids. He was just a grower. 
Yes there is that 30 minute rule, and I agree with it. But what I do is when they are pushing I usually just stick a finger in there. If I can feel a kid I go ahead and feel what I have going on. Let’s say I only have a nose. I might give her just a little more time and see if those feet show up depending on how long she’s been pushing or how far that nose is. If the head is basically right there and no feet around then it’s a good bet. Those feet are not coming without some help. Then I’ll go ahead and start stepping in. I just go very slow and gently. 
You absolutely can tie strings onto body parts so they don’t go missing. I have done that many times. 
And I agree I probably would have pulled while just the leg and head. BUT that does not mean that the outcome would have been different. Heck even if you had the perfect position it doesn’t mean that you would have had a different outcome. Again small does are hard. I know for me when I first read up oh kidding everything stressed so much on being gentle, not treating them like a cow and really pulling on those kids. Now many years in I find that to be untrue. Ultimately that kid needs to come out. I have had some VERY hard pulls and in my mind I thought “I’m killing my doe” but I had to remind myself she is dead if it doesn’t come out. And those does usually end up just fine. Sore for sure but they can handle more on the pulling then the impression I got reading. 
But it gets easier. I promise you that and you have a wonderful mindset on all this.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:

Good advice.

It is best to watch and see how the kid is presenting. 

If you see something off right away, you do not need to wait 30 minutes and should go in an help right away.

You want to see a kid in diving position, front legs and head in between.
If you see back legs(breach) it is OK to pull them and this position, you need to get the kid out really quick, as the life line, cord, most likely broke, if you see that, it is cutting off air supply.


----------



## mariella (Feb 23, 2017)

So I figure everyone else has this down but I wanted to add my two since.
We have all been new goat owners before and we have all lost does to being too relaxed during a birth I'm sure. 

My story ends on a happy note because I have a really good goat lady near me that helped e through this.
So my story is, I bought a yearling Boer cross doeling that was open and I was breeding my does as yearlings and figured it wouldn't hurt to breed her to my big LaMancha buck. She looked like she was pregnant with twins at 4 months so we were hoping it was going to be 2 normal-sized babies. She went into labor and she was doing great but taking her time getting down to pushing when she finally did start pushing it wasn't going well. We waited 30 minutes before we went in to check and we found a head and 1 foot that was tucked under his chin and he was a HUGE baby, I pushed him back in and tried to get his head and both legs in the right position but he was too big to fit it all in there at once. After a few minutes of trying, I called my goat mentor and she said to just pull him out before I lost them both. It was the hardest pull I have ever experienced and I thought I broke both the mama's pelvis and the baby's leg and it still took 10 minutes to get him out. After it was all said and done my mentor chewed me up one side and down the other about how I should have waited for the doe to mature and grow to full size. She then told me something that will stick with me for the rest of my life.
Imagen 1 month of a doeling's life as 1 year, your doe was only 14 when she was forced to have a baby and she wasn't ready. It was all the breeder's fault for not care for his/her goats but now you know to watch for these things again in the future!


----------



## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Even when the kid is in the "perfect position" you can have issues. I had two does recently with nose and feet out but the kid stopped progressing. 
The doe was too young and too small. The breeder was very irresponsible and there was probably nothing you could have done to change the outcome. Like others said the baby still should have been able to come out without much intervention so it was probably just too big.


----------



## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

I guess everyone who keeps goats and breed them and raises kids will at sometime have kidding problems. Sorry for your loss but experience is priceless ! We had a issue with a doe that was having labor pains and she had raised 2 previous sets of kids. The first kid came out in the correct position but kind of slow getting there. I checked her and had a head and 2 feet at the canal. I was able to pull both feet out and then all went smoothly. Then a few minutes later labor pains and I see a back foot. I pull on it and end up pulling out the kid backwards by one foot and it was dead and had been for a day or so. Then more pains and a second breach kid's back legs appear and I pull it out and it was alive. So both kids are growing and doing great. Back to back breach kids is a first for us. Her first 2 kidding season went like clockwork, not the third. Now 2 days later our yearling doe starts labor and gets a head out to the edge of the pelvis with front feet but seems to stop there. I pull both feet and head out then the kid and she is like what the heck is going on and runs out of the barn. we get her back in as the second kid's head is hanging out but No front feet. I just pull on the head and get it to slip on out. Both kids are alive and doing well. She had to smell of the kids before Mother Nature took over and she started cleaning them. So my advice is if you got legs or head to pull on do so. Always try to get head first with legs but if no legs pull on the head. Because the doe is having issues finishing the job and needs some help. So don't feel bad because you did what you thought was the right thing to do and probably was. Next time if it ever happens again you will be more confident as what to do. Good luck.


----------



## Robin Lee (Apr 4, 2020)

Thank you all for the insight and the advice. It was really nice to hear from those who have been there.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug:


----------



## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Robin Lee said:


> Thank you all for the insight and the advice. It was really nice to hear from those who have been there.


One thing is for sure... you're definitely not alone. We've all had our losses and we've learned things along the way. I figure if I can learn even one thing from a tragedy that helps me with another goat later on, then it wasn't a total loss. I hope your next kidding is the beautiful experience it should be.


----------



## Angel A (Apr 4, 2020)

I’m feeling very fortunate. I’ve never had to pull anything. We have had to clean a few, had a few rejected (only by my Nubians), and my husband has saved a couple by hanging them upside down and clearing their mouths and wrapping them in towels and rubbing them. God Bless all of you for all you do for your goat mommas and their kids. 
Ya win some and you lose some, but what matters is we try to do our best :great:


----------



## momto6ls (Aug 15, 2014)

I just want to say, you are a wonderful person. You worried, you watched and you did your best.:goodjob:We all learn something every time. I have been through 5 kidding seasons. I was in season #3 before I learned 45 minutes is too long to wait - I won't do that again. But at the time I'd never seen a goat take that long and I had DH saying "it's natural, just wait for her and she'll do it on her own " My gut knew better. Now my brain does too. :nod:

Making sure we learn the lessons is the best we can do! Every kidding is different. I'm a labor and delivery nurse by trade, and I still get nervous and anxious every time LOL. The process is familiar, but just like people, _every birth is different. _and as hard as we try, there is no way to know everything.

one great thing is that you have found this forum! I lurk A LOT. I read these types of threads, and I hope that when situations arise these good people and their advice will come to mind. They have hearts of gold, and when I have needed them in an emergency they have answered within minutes!

So, know that you are a super hero even though you don't feel like it, (highfive), and that this is as close as you can come to super hero training.


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I never got a chance to reply to this thread. I am so very sorry for your loss, that is devastating I know. You went in and tried your best, and there is a possibility that kid was too big to get through the pelvis. 
I have had to help with some very tough deliveries. It's no fun for sure 
Back in I believe Jan 2013 - New Years morning we arrived home from spending the eve at inlaws for dinner - got home about 12:30am. A doe was in labor - sack hanging out. Wasn't due for a few more days and no signs of labor at all before we went to inlaws.
I waited...she was not progressing. I was so afraid to go in. Eventually I did, but wasn't sure what I was feeling. At one point a body part more like the ribs - felt solid. Then it felt like kids were tangled, eventually a head and foot. I could not find the head for the first kid - finally got the kid out, neck was back - kid was already dead at that point. Had to take the doe to the vet to get the 2nd dead kid out as he kept slipping way back down into her. 
After that delivery I said I will never, ever be afraid to go in and check and get kids out.
My friends tend to call me when they have a kidding issue because they know I am not afraid to go in, and that I'll do my best to get those kids out.

Our hardest delivery ever in our herd was a 15lb. Boer cross buckling in a smaller 150lb. doe. Brutal. His head was turned back to his side and took us well over an hour to get him out. How he and mom lived is beyond me, but they did.

Head back is the most brutal IMO. 
I helped a newer goat owning friend a couple of months ago in the toughest and most heartbreaking delivery I've experienced yet.
Doe carrying triplets, first 2 had heads back. I was able to get the 1st one out, she was fine. Couldn't find the head on #2 (on the right side), so I tried to go for baby #3 (left side) and couldn't get it to move forward to the birth canal. So I can back to baby #2 and finally got her head and got her out - weak but was doing good - amazingly!
never could get #3 out. Tried not to hurt mom but in the end she ruptured. Baby died. My friend's husband had to put her down. I am still so heartbroken over it - first time I've physically not been able to get a kid out.
I do think however if I had a lamb puller I might have been able to save them all. I just bought one to keep in our kidding kit. I couldn't get the babies head & legs into the birth canal, and too big with my hand involved. Leg snares wouldn't have helped because of trying to guide the head through - again head and my hand plus legs wasn't happening - big baby. 

I don't know if there is a lamb puller that would fit small breed of goats, but I am assuming there might be, and highly recommend having a lamb puller and/or at least leg snare/chains/whatever they are called lol in the kidding kit for these drastic times. For years I'd been able to go without them. But knowing I might have been able to change the situation with having one, I will always have something in my kit so I can at least say I was as prepared as I could possibly be.
Last year I was able to save a baby in a terrible birthing thanks to the lamb puller - my friend happened to have in her kit. Huge baby, head back. I ended up having to push that baby back in, use the lamb puller and get the tiny runt underneath it out first. Doe was already ruptured before I went in as she didn't feel right (old doe, ruptured above her udder). Runt was already dying  Went back in with lamb puller, found big kids head, got the head out, then legs and she was weak, but got her going - she'd been stuck before I got there for about 45 minutes! Miracle baby as it probably was an hour and 10 minutes total before she was out.

As for 1 leg back? I have delivered many kids that way with no issues. Sometimes, it's even better that way IMO, depending on the kid and situation. Honestly, I think in some situations with big kids it was better getting 1 shoulder out vs. both at the same time. Having 1 leg back kind of pushes that shoulder back a bit - hard to explain, but again, never had an issue. 
I helped a friend last month. She got in there and got the first kid into the birth canal but big shoulders were keeping him from coming out. I had to push 1 foot back in, get the head and 1 shoulder out which was a very hard pull, then grab the 2nd foot that was still within reach and pull it so baby would come out. 

The experiences I mentioned above were on Boer goats.


----------



## alicejane (Jan 15, 2014)

I have been reading a lot about large babies a d am wondering if feeding too much or too much the wrong feed could be the reason for this? I had a vet tell me that when you over feed it causes the babies to get to big & not be able to get out. I have not heard this mentioned as a possible causion? I also heard that some males can cause large babies. But I think that there are articles about feeding amounts needed.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Large babies are caused by over feeding too much grain during the last month of pregnancy.
I do feed a sweet grain the last month, but, it is a small amount daily. 
The last month, is when the kids grow the most.


----------

