# Boers for meat (and milk?)



## kreyon

Hi, we are looking to get some goats for meat (own personal consumption) but also require milk as my 14 month old son can't drink cows milk and is currently having raw goat milk from a farm about 30 miles from us (which is becoming a trek every week!). I was wondering if we could have the best of both worlds with the boers? We don't require gallons of milk, just enough for the 3 of us and if there's more then great 

Can anybody give me an idea roughly how much milk we are likely to get from this breed?

Many thanks Kate


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## liz

Welcome!!

I don't raise meat goats but there are many here that do...and from what I understand, even though a Boer can be milked, the amount of time as well as how much she is actually producing is much shorter than a dairy breed, mainly because they produce just enough to raise kids to weaning....some will have a couple does who are a cross of a Nubian and Boer to have the best of both..dairy and meat.


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## Calico Patch Farm

Kinder goats (Nubian/pygmy cross) is also a dual purpose breed. We had a kinder doe that gave tons of milk and produced meaty kids.


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## toth boer goats

Yes... you can do both.... but... you have to choose one... that has a good size udder ...capable of giving more milk..... Some boers ...I see have the standard smaller size udders... my boers are milk houses....but... you don't want the udder... to go past the bends in their back legs....

If you want boers...then if one Doe isn't enough.. get 2 .... :greengrin: 

I have some of my boer Does... you would swear... that they are Dairy....with how much milk they give....example: one of the Does I had in the past.. gave me a gallon of milk ...when I milked her out... at weaning time because she was to tight.....this Doe... I had a difficult time drying up.... ...and there are those others ...that are good milkers for their kids....but as weaning age approaches.... the milk supply is diminished.... 

First fresheners ...won't have much.... but each time they freshen they improve.... 

like Liz mentioned...I have had boer/nubian...they are a good combo.... if you wanted to go that way....

It all depends on the Doe that you have...with how much milk... she will produce ...along with proper feeding... :wink:


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## nancy d

Between two Boer/Nubians (50%) we are getting close to a gallon a day between them. Their kids were sold about 3 weeks ago.
Im not sure about the length of lactation but in the meantime we have plenty for making cheese as well as a few customers.
Keep in mind that teat structure in regards to size & orifice will never be as nice as your full dairy girls.
Oddly enough the FF puts out more than the 2nd timer! And her udder is smaller!


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## toth boer goats

> Oddly enough the FF puts out more than the 2nd timer! And her udder is smaller!


 That is strange ...my FB Boer Does get fuller...the 2nd freshening.... and so on...for a few years .....until they get to their full capacity.... I have great milkers and guess I have good boer milk genes.... :wink: :laugh:


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## nancy d

:thumb: Pam!

shh...dont tell little Sissy Doodle about whats normal for an FF.


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## lissablack

Kinders really are the perfect homestead goat, if you live near enough to get them. But they are still spread very thin across the country and there are only a few places where they are readily available. I am breeding for kinders that will milk through the winter, rather than the biggest volume I can get. But for what you need right now, if you can find a boer/nubian cross and keep that going you are more likely to have milk for longer than a boer.

Jan


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## toth boer goats

> :thumb: Pam!
> 
> shh...dont tell little Sissy Doodle about whats normal for an FF.


 HeHe...I won't.... :laugh: :thumbup:


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## HoosierShadow

What about a cross bred meat goat? We have cross bred does, and they each had twins this year and we were very happy with their milk production, especially the boer/nubian cross does.


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## freedomstarfarm

Welcome from NJ :wave:


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## 20kidsonhill

Boers don't stay into milk as long as a dairy breed will, so if you are wanting fresh milk all year you would need more goats and spread out the breedings of them. Dairy goats stay into milk longer, a nubian doe bred to a boer buck would give you a fairly meaty kid, starting with some 50% boer/Nubian does would help with udder size and they would stay in milk longer than just a boer,then breeding them to a nice meaty boer buck would give you a 75% boer kid with some pretty good muscleing and growth rate. 

I notice that the 87.5% boer/ 12.5% nubians start to carry a lot more boer look and will loose the big dairy teats and udder look if you aren't making sure your boer already has a fantastic udder and nice big orifices in the teats. Some boers can have smaller orifices and harder too milk. \

boers aren't bred for udders, so you have to look at blood-lines(dams and sires) checking udder quality, number of teats, fish-teats in the genetics and orifice sizes in the teats to make sure milking the boer doe wouldn't be a really frustrating task. Some of my boer does aren't that hard to milk, but I sure wouldn't want to milk some of them on a daily basis.


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## kreyon

Thanks for all the advice  I just need to find someone with Nubians now, found someone with Boers then maybe go with the Nubian doe bred to a Boer buck.


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## ()relics

20kidsonhill said:


> ......boers aren't bred for udders, so you have to look at blood-lines(dams and sires) checking udder quality, number of teats, fish-teats in the genetics and orifice sizes in the teats to make sure milking the boer doe wouldn't be a really frustrating task....


The standard suggests that they be bred for proper udder/teat structure. Mine are and my kid ADG's prove it. Breed standards put a fairly large point value in proper teat structure and udder attachment, some choose to ignore the fact. To confuse the issue even more is the _Lack_ of records on boer bloodlines as they pertain to teat/udder structure and milking qualities making pedigree research a dead end street, unless you have first hand knowledge of the sires and dams....Obviously FB boers aren't as good at making milk as dairy breeds but what they lack in volume they make up for in butter fat content, at least for the first 75 days or so...A boer with a poor udder/teat structure should be fed out and slaughtered. What good is a poor milking doe in the raising of big fat market or show kids? JMO


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## 20kidsonhill

()relics said:


> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ......boers aren't bred for udders, so you have to look at blood-lines(dams and sires) checking udder quality, number of teats, fish-teats in the genetics and orifice sizes in the teats to make sure milking the boer doe wouldn't be a really frustrating task....
> 
> 
> 
> The standard suggests that they be bred for proper udder/teat structure. Mine are and my kid ADG's prove it. Breed standards put a fairly large point value in proper teat structure and udder attachment, some choose to ignore the fact. To confuse the issue even more is the _Lack_ of records on boer bloodlines as they pertain to teat/udder structure and milking qualities making pedigree research a dead end street, unless you have first hand knowledge of the sires and dams....Obviously FB boers aren't as good at making milk as dairy breeds but what they lack in volume they make up for in butter fat content, at least for the first 75 days or so...A boer with a poor udder/teat structure should be fed out and slaughtered. What good is a poor milking doe in the raising of big fat market or show kids? JMO
Click to expand...

When I said bloodlines, I wasn't really referring to paperwork, Poor choice of phrasing on my part, I meant talking to the breeder and looking at the dam and sire on site. Also, poor choice of phrasing when I said they aren't really bred for good udders, I should have said there are some bad uddered boers out their so if you are planning on milking them, make sure you do a good job checking into the does udder qualities. A boer with a poor udder/teat structure should be fed out, but they often aren't, so do you homework and talk to breeders about how much importance they are putting into their udders. If you ask them if their goats have fish-teats and they tell you that doesn't really matter, you may wish to move on and look for another breeder.

I know one of my does, can easily produce 50 lb twins in under 8 weeks, but I sure wouldn't want to milk her, the stream is very small, compared to some of my other does, her udder looks fine, but does have smaller teats compared to some. I have had to try to get emergency milk from her.


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## ()relics

20kidsonhill said:


> .... I should have said there are some bad uddered boers out there.....


Alot of bad uddered boers out there...This is the reason so many breeders are crying about the New Standard Changes suggested by the ABGA. If the junk does/bucks were culled, as they should have been, there wouldn't be so many genetic misfits Now..But when there is Money to be made Standard Ethics go out the window. Sometimes breeders forget the Standard is THE standard regardless if the given animal is a show prospect or a commercial breeder. And Misconformed goats are culls even if they have paperwork saying otherwise.


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## nancy d

Some of mine have tiny orifices. The kids dont have a problem with it but the occasion to relieve pressure if needed on an udder with those small teats is a chore for sure! And milk doesnt always flow in a nice downward stream on Boers. For a real treat try one with double orifices. 
I would think that unless you are able to get your hands on a Boer udder full of milk you're not going to know what you will get for milking purposes.


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## 20kidsonhill

I know their are some good uddered boers out there, one of my full-blood in particular, milks out like a charm, She lost one of her twins,leaving her with a single this spring, and I was stealing milk from her, I could easily see someone milking her, wonderful udder. If purchasing boers for milking, you really need to do your research with the seller. I wish I had known that 14 years ago when we started raising goats, we just mostly have percentage, and I really like the nubian/boer crosses, but we have struggled finding full-blood boer bucks that pass on decent udders, we have really struggled with fish-teats, and I am fed up with culling fish-teated doelings. We felt we did a good job researching this with the last two bucks we purchased, I hope we get less fish-teats with some of our future kids. then I got so busy looking at teats an top-lines and all of the structure, I allowed myself to overlook the lightness of skin on a new doe thinking her kids would have darker skin and nope, they aren't carrying as much skin pigmentation as I had hope. Grrrr. it is so frustrating. And one of the two new bucks is showing signs of his horns possibly growing too close to his head. Are you kidding me. 

Relic I need better goats!!!! My husband and I talked about dumping all of them and starting over. Problem is we don't want to do the traveling for the shows, so it is hard for us to justify higher dollars into full-bloods than we are already spending a far amount of money on. OH, sorry for carrying on.

back to the discussion of milking boer goats. 

I vote for a 50% boer/nubian does, well researched for udder quality and then breed them to a good meaty full-blood buck, you can butcher the kids that don't sell and you can sell the 75% nubian doelings for 150.00 plus.


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## ()relics

20kidsonhill said:


> .... I need better goats!!!! My husband and I talked about dumping all of them and starting over. Problem is we don't want to do the traveling for the shows, so it is hard for us to justify higher dollars into full-bloods than we are already spending a far amount of money on.....


So do I...trick is to find THE BEST Fb buck you can afford. Use him on your commercial herd to get your cash flow started...Then keep your Eyes Open for a few FB does, proven does with kids already on the ground so your can see what they throw. Slowly build your herd with these "foundation" does...CULL MOST of the kids except the Absolute Best. A few years down the road All your kids will be show prospects. OR Keep Everything and breed it and you will suffer with a lifetime of genetic Junk....You should see the foundation does I started with...I paid $60 each and built my % herd, essentially, from goats that the breeder thought were just junk, but properly conformed Junk.I paid a small fortune for my first FB buck, Money well spent, again on a perfectly conformed buck...I still have a few of the kids from my original does and they are some of the Ugliest goats on earth....So why do I still have them? Because they are perfectly conformed does that throw perfectly conformed kids Nearly everytime. Simply let your perfectly conformed % herd pay the bills for your New Fb Herd...probably about a 5 year plan and then you are rolling with 2 herds and perfect kids.Get 5 years of breedings and you will quickly tell which does/bucks throw junk; then Show Them The Door...But what would I know.


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## toth boer goats

> Alot of bad uddered boers out there...This is the reason so many breeders are crying about the New Standard Changes suggested by the ABGA. If the junk does/bucks were culled, as they should have been, there wouldn't be so many genetic misfits Now..But when there is Money to be made Standard Ethics go out the window. Sometimes breeders forget the Standard is THE standard regardless if the given animal is a show prospect or a commercial breeder. And Misconformed goats are culls even if they have paperwork saying otherwise.


I disagree.... Breeders/members are not crying out for change in ABGA at all.... they rather keep it the way it has always been....It is Major Board members wanting change....they are the ones that are trying to do change without members input....we fought that... there was an overwhelming survey on the supposed changes and a huge overwhelming percentage was against the new ways........I talked to a member of the board about this and that is what I was told....

If a goat meets the acceptable ABGA teat standards from the 50% split ...2x2 clean... to the 1x1 clean....... and meets the "Acceptable" show standards... It is very unfair to call goats misfits especially when I know... that you think that 2x2 clean boers are misfits....
I know in your opinion Relic(s).... anything other than ...the 1x1 is a misfit to you....which is so unfair.... :doh:

teats have nothing to do with the udder/milk capacity and volume .... in which .... the poster was asking about milk consumption...and meat....not the teat standards.... :wink:


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## 20kidsonhill

()relics said:


> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... I need better goats!!!! My husband and I talked about dumping all of them and starting over. Problem is we don't want to do the traveling for the shows, so it is hard for us to justify higher dollars into full-bloods than we are already spending a far amount of money on.....
> 
> 
> 
> So do I...trick is to find THE BEST Fb buck you can afford. Use him on your commercial herd to get your cash flow started...Then keep your Eyes Open for a few FB does, proven does with kids already on the ground so your can see what they throw. Slowly build your herd with these "foundation" does...CULL MOST of the kids except the Absolute Best. A few years down the road All your kids will be show prospects. OR Keep Everything and breed it and you will suffer with a lifetime of genetic Junk....You should see the foundation does I started with...I paid $60 each and built my % herd, essentially, from goats that the breeder thought were just junk, but properly conformed Junk.I paid a small fortune for my first FB buck, Money well spent, again on a perfectly conformed buck...I still have a few of the kids from my original does and they are some of the Ugliest goats on earth....So why do I still have them? Because they are perfectly conformed does that throw perfectly conformed kids Nearly everytime. Simply let your perfectly conformed % herd pay the bills for your New Fb Herd...probably about a 5 year plan and then you are rolling with 2 herds and perfect kids.Get 5 years of breedings and you will quickly tell which does/bucks throw junk; then Show Them The Door...But what would I know.
Click to expand...

Relic: We have been trying to do that, I just think we are making too many mistakes, maybe our bucks just aren't good enough. We only keep 2 does a year and make sure they are our favorites, out of around 35 kids a year. We have been spending around 500 for the bucks, I know this isn't the best stuff out there. But I am having a hard time going up to 1,000 plus for the better bucks.

Pam: You have beautiful goats and I certainly wouldn't be one to disagree with you on anything, since your goats are far better than mine, but I feel the teat discussion is most certainly important, I wouldn't want to milk a boer doe with 2x2 teats, the teats are always smaller, cetainly wouldn't want to milk a fish teated doe.

Pam and Relic: do you know if a 2x2 buck with good seperation between the teats would still increase your chances of getting fish-teats, we are trying to cull them out of the herd. We realized our last buckling we had that we have been using for 4 or so ears, is throwing fish-teats, we found a teat scur on one of his teats, that we never realized was even there, now several of our does are fish-teat carriers. One of the bucks we got last year has 2x2 teats another one has 1x1 teats and his mother has 1x1 teat.

Question is will the 2x2 teated buck keep encouraging fish-teats even though he has very good space between his teats?


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## nancy d

You know, all Kreyon wanted to know was about meat & milk & is probably on information overload.
I for one apologize. 
Maybe we should start our own thread about the bucks imact on teats?


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## toth boer goats

> Pam: You have beautiful goats and I certainly wouldn't be one to disagree with you on anything, since your goats are far better than mine, but I feel the teat discussion is most certainly important, I wouldn't want to milk a boer doe with 2x2 teats, the teats are always smaller, cetainly wouldn't want to milk a fish teated doe.
> 
> Pam and Relic: do you know if a 2x2 buck with good seperation between the teats would still increase your chances of getting fish-teats, we are trying to cull them out of the herd. We realized our last buckling we had that we have been using for 4 or so ears, is throwing fish-teats, we found a teat scur on one of his teats, that we never realized was even there, now several of our does are fish-teat carriers. One of the bucks we got last year has 2x2 teats another one has 1x1 teats and his mother has 1x1 teat.
> 
> Question is will the 2x2 teated buck keep encouraging fish-teats even though he has very good space between his teats?


 2x2 clean spread apart is easy to milk I have them I also have a buck that is 2x2 clean spread apart and the kids are 2x2 cleans...I also have gotten 1x1 cleans out of them also.... It is hard to get a perfect teated goat kid every single time..... I do get the occasional throwbacks... not up to the show standards....

If you are having fishteat issues I do recommend getting a 1x1 teated buck that the sire and Dam are clean 1x1's... to hopefully breed it out of them.... if the Does have the fish teats they can throw them back though....but ...you should get nice teated kids out of them as well.... Of course if the fishteats are in the genetics it can bounce back to the offspring...as can any other trait being good or bad..... :wink:

My boer Does aren't to bad with the teat size as they mature....it is the FF that are the small ones.... and are a big pain... :doh:

Fish teated Does... are a really a big pain to milk... you are right.... cause you can get squirted in the face... I did have one a long time ago...My herd are good teated Does now....I have 1x1 clean and 2x2 clean's...


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## nancy d

Ok, Im learning more too :wink: 

Ive had cluster teats only a few times, two of them were bucklings & this yr a % doeling.
Bucklings were out of 2 & 4 teated dams from a 4 teated buck.
This year 2 teated buck over 2 teated 50% does.
One of those % does is currently being milked. She has a non DQ spur.

Its like everything else, sometimes a fluke or throwback at least with my herd. If I were getting cluster or fish teats more than a couple of times every few years I would certainly reconsider. Same goes with any other fault.


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## 20kidsonhill

Don't fall off your chair, but I got 30% fish-teats out of 32 kids this year all from the same sire, 16 different dams, 14 of the dams are 1x1 teated. We mostly do commercial and show whethers, but it was still very frustrating. We weren't quit ready to get rid of this sire, we have had some good luck showing his whethers, but we are tired of culling fish-teated doelings, What good does it do to have a full-blood buck if you can't paper any of the kids and just have to keep selling the doelings as commercial/pets/meat. 

I wanted to share our story with the poster, so that they keep the information in mind while searching for a boer buck. If they are planning on butchering everything it wont matter, but if they have plans on keeping a couple doelings for future milking the boer buck would very quickly change the quallity of the udder of your nubians. 
Although our over all goal isn't the same with our nubians, we got them for increased frame for show whethers, Our original 4 nubian/boer 50/50 have very nice udders and came from a farm that was milking nubians and doing something similar to what you would like to do. milk and raise meat. 

I really don't know what udder qualities their buck had that sired our does, never thought to ask (8years ago) as far as I know their buck has fish-teats, also. But the does we purchased from them have wonderful full udders and teats that have held up very well. The girls are know 8 years old and still doing really well. Their 75% daughters also seem to have very nice udders, it is the 87.5 % girls we are having problems with, but I am not so sure it isn't our buck that we are know using.


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## toth boer goats

> Ok, Im learning more too :wink:
> 
> Ive had cluster teats only a few times, two of them were bucklings & this yr a % doeling.
> Bucklings were out of 2 & 4 teated dams from a 4 teated buck.
> This year 2 teated buck over 2 teated 50% does.
> One of those % does is currently being milked. She has a non DQ spur.
> 
> Its like everything else, sometimes a fluke or throwback at least with my herd. If I were getting cluster or fish teats more than a couple of times every few years I would certainly reconsider. Same goes with any other fault.


 :greengrin:

Yep ...you are so correct ... :hi5:



> Don't fall off your chair, but I got 30% fish-teats out of 32 kids this year all from the same sire, 16 different dams, 14 of the dams are 1x1 teated. We mostly do commercial and show whethers, but it was still very frustrating. We weren't quit ready to get rid of this sire, we have had some good luck showing his whethers, but we are tired of culling fish-teated doelings, What good does it do to have a full-blood buck if you can't paper any of the kids and just have to keep selling the doelings as commercial/pets/meat.
> 
> I wanted to share our story with the poster, so that they keep the information in mind while searching for a boer buck. If they are planning on butchering everything it wont matter, but if they have plans on keeping a couple doelings for future milking the boer buck would very quickly change the quallity of the udder of your nubians.
> Although our over all goal isn't the same with our nubians, we got them for increased frame for show whethers, Our original 4 nubian/boer 50/50 have very nice udders and came from a farm that was milking nubians and doing something similar to what you would like to do. milk and raise meat.
> 
> I really don't know what udder qualities their buck had that sired our does, never thought to ask (8years ago) as far as I know their buck has fish-teats, also. But the does we purchased from them have wonderful full udders and teats that have held up very well. The girls are know 8 years old and still doing really well. Their 75% daughters also seem to have very nice udders, it is the 87.5 % girls we are having problems with, but I am not so sure it isn't our buck that we are know using.


 You are so right ...it would be very frustrating ...not being able to register the offspring....  
If you are getting that high of percentage bad genetic traits.... it is a good idea... to consider replacing the buck....... Some genetics... in your buck are throwing the flaws and being bred to your Does that have the bad teat traits... along with those genetics flaws really close from within the lines.... may of had the bad teat structures as well......and that is why you are getting a huge percentage of them....
It is important ...if you want to get the bad traits out and you cannot afford to start over... and replace the Does as well...is to switch out the buck.... and make sure... that at least the close genetics of sire and Dam even farther back... if you can.. to see what teat structures they had(close in).... to insure... that the genetics aren't to close that are throwing or have the teat flaws.... 1x1 is the best choice in trying to clean up the herd....

I agree that nubian/boer are really good for achieving both meat and milk...as the poster wants... :hi5:


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