# How young can I put bridle on



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

I have never had goats and I'm reading as much as possible. I have a case of new mom jitters! I have a set of Boer twins, my very first kids. They were born Jan. 21st. The baby buck we named Chewy, because he constantly chews on me, WITH HIS TEETH! The baby doe we named Maeme. My DH and I have done a lot of leather crafting so we're planning to make our own bridles and harness gear for our kids. But I'd like to know, How young is too young to introduce the bridle harness? (No bit, just basic head harness) We live in central Wisconsin and its just too cold outside for the kids, so we have them in the house, on our hardwood floor area. I follow them around with paper towels and cleaning rags! And we put the kids in a crate for naps and over night. The kids have been bottle fed from birth on (kid milk replacer) but also got the moms colostrum at first. I'm thinking the bridle might help distract Chewy from biting me. When I yell, "OUCH" pull away and scold him after a few times, he will just use his lips, which is acceptable with me but forgets shortly there after. Maeme constantly presses her face on me, and that's ok to. Annoying, yes, but as long as the kids are not hurting me. But also I'd like to see if a bridle harness would help stop that. Just wondering if they are too young. Im so green! 

Brenda


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I suspect that chewy maybe is looking for minerals. Since they are on wood floors, they haven't had the opportunity to eat dirt to jump start their rumen bacteria. Providing them with some feed grade yeast to nibble at will achieve the same thing in a cleaner manner. They should also have loose minerals that they can get to. 
I usually don't halter my boys until they are 6 months old. I would hate to injure a soft jaw or neck before the joints started firming up 
Try teaching him to lick instead. By smearing baby food or yogurt on your hands. He will only be able to get the food taste by licking. If he bites even once, take your hands away and wash them. Game over for a few minutes. Don't let them get the upper and now, it will make it very difficult down the road.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh, and get a box of diapers. You can cut an X-shaped spot for thier tails. Makes things a lot easier.


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Oh, and get a box of diapers. You can cut an X-shaped spot for thier tails. Makes things a lot easier.


Thanks for all of your advice. Being my first time ever with goats, I just don't know what to do. I thought about diapers, but... their poops are soft and pasty. For me, it is easier to wipe a spot off the floor, rather than have them get the pasty poop all over their butts and have to wash them.

I purchased the kids last Saturday, Jan. 26. They were 5 days old. When they were born, out temps were below zero and by the time the owner got home from work, the kids had frost bite on their ears, so she brought them in the house and the mama goat wouldn't take them back. The owner milked mom and got the first colostrum's and after that started them on Advance brand, Kid Milk Replacer. I weighed them 2 days a go. Male is 9 lbs, female was 9.2 lbs.

The male chews on me, and the female presses on me with her mouth and stays like that as still as a statue if I let her.

The owner said do not give them anything else but the milk replacer and hey. I don't think they are eating any of the hey yet, and I also have a small bucket of water for them in their kennel. We screwed the buckets up off the floor to the sides if the kennel. And I have straw on the floor of their kennel which I clean and replace daily.

I am confused as to make the right choice for them. Between all the reading, advice and what the previous owner says.

Brenda


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

QUOTE: Originally Posted by goathiker - Providing them with some feed grade yeast to nibble at will achieve the same thing in a cleaner manner. They should also have loose minerals that they can get to. 

Ok, this makes sense. But what is feed grade yeast? How do I offer this to them. And what is loose minerals? How do I give this to them as well? 

Thanks for your help!


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You can get yeast at your feed store. It is expensive, but, it will last forever with two. Loose minerals, the same. Just put them in double sided non-tip dog dish, just a tiny bit (tablespoon) until they start using it. They will use it as they need it. They can have as much as they want of the minerals, only that tablespoon of the yeast daily until they are bigger.

I was taught that grain developes the rumen and hay increases it's size. The little finger things on the inside will not grow as well without protein and carbs in grain. The longer those fingers are, the better they use their food. My kids are started on creep feed and alfalfa pellets free choice. I don't offer more then a handful of hay until they are filling out that right side well. Around 6 weeks old.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

my babies start eating minerals at 2-3 weeks old! 

The biting you need to curb quickly, I use a flick on the nose


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

Would a block of minerals with copper in it be ok instead of loose? Just called my local feed store and they have the yeast but only have the minerals in a block form. Thanks so much for your help! As for grain, I have oats, barley and cracked corn. I have chickens and rabbits. Wondering if I can offer rabbit pellets to the kids? 

Brenda


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

especially for kids the block is no good - I wouldnt waste your money. Look for loose minerals at TSC they have a brand by Manna pro


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

StaceyRoop said:


> my babies start eating minerals at 2-3 weeks old!
> 
> The biting you need to curb quickly, I use a flick on the nose


Yes! I have done this with a loud stern NO! And he just uses his lips instead of teeth! They do seem intelligent for their age.


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

Will the yeast and loose minerals hurt their gut if they are too young yet? 9 days old today. They are taking in about 8 to 9 ounces each feeding of Advance Milk Replacer, 4 times a day. They seem thin to me. 

And don't seem to be eating hey yet
Brenda


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Rabbit pellets have more ingredients to them then just alfalfa. I've never used them and don't know of any who do.
The best thing for them is probably a name brand medicated goat pellet. Iuse whole grains but, that requires that I really pay attention to Cocci prevention.

They won't be able to get the amount of minerals they need off a block. Usually goat blocks are full of molasses and corn also, which I avoid. 

Do you know what brands your store sells? We can help find something, even if it doesn't say goat on the bag.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

My kids are usually nibbling at grain by 5 days old. They won't eat very much at a time to begin with just licks and bites. They will get used to it as they learn to take more.


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

The guy at my feed store is hard to understand and seems more annoyed with my questions. I have to go get rabbit pellets so I will bring paper and pencil along for notes. I'll get the yeast, and will get info on the minerals they have. Its snowing here in central Wi. going to get a good accumulation today. So I'll be back in about 1 to 2 hours with information. 

Also, the babies wouldn't touch the hey for the life of them, so I took a small pinch of chaff ad put it in their mouths. Lots of spitting but after that they picked at a handful I was offering so they are starting! 

Brenda


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

goathiker said:


> My kids are usually nibbling at grain by 5 days old.


 What kind of grain? I have whole oats and barley, cracked corn and alfalfa hay.

Brenda


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I will PM you.


----------



## AdamsAcres (Dec 3, 2012)

Mine is two weeks and nibbling at dirt, hay, alfalfa, grain, and minerals. The grain is oats, BOSS, goat pellet, and all livestock sweet feed.

Perhaps they begin younger if still will the mom?


----------



## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

If you can't find loose goat minerals loose cattle minerals work as well. Good luck with your new babies.


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

interesting goathiker, I was taught the opposite, that it is actually the roughage that develops the rumen, and actually poorer quality roughage creates a stronger healthier more functional rumen. thats why in calf rearing they say to give barley straw to the calves from day one. I found that a bit odd. I cant bring myself to feed straw but do feed good quality oaten hay ad lib.


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I was surprised at that as well....I would think from the undomesticated ones having mostly browse and grasses, it would be the most natural thing for their bodies....or is it the poorer quality of the hay and grasses we can provide that is the issue....

to the OP- Congrats on your new buddies! I agree to not allow any "nibbling" at all....I had a young buck doing that and the older he got,the less "cute" it became and the more annoying it can be(and he was very friendly)....it also can rip clothes, which gets frustrating too. Try to picture him at 250 # "nibbling" on people.....I also read an interesting thread on here about how to raise a buck that doesn't learn you are a "play toy" as it gets dangerous when they get bigger. Are you having him wethered? Or will he be intact?
I am very new to goats and this site but thought I'd offer you some insight in case you hadn't thought of it yet.
Would love to see some pics!


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Don't forget though, wild and feral goats eat mostly twig ends and viney plants. The twig end of a branch contains the growth nutrients of the tree, the most minerals, the highest protein, the biological processes that make the branch grow. During the spring, when wild kids are born, the trees and vines are at the highest level. Gearing up to grow and start producing fruit. The wild goats also browse huge areas. They take only the best and almost never browse close to the ground. 
This means that they aren't picking up parasites that will stunt them. They don't return to the same area for several weeks, so there's no wear on the land unless they are over populated. The moms milk only enough to feed their young and the danger ensures that only the best survive. They really wouldn't eat grass unless that was all that was available and then, they eat it dried, as standing hay in the winter, supplimenting with bark and lichens, evergreen shrubs, seaweed, etc. We can't provide for them anywhere close to a natural diet. We know we can't, they live to 25 years in the wild. 
I'm not talking about Mountain Goats either. These are actually a type of antelope, not a goat.

Something else to consider. A true grain (seed of a plant) contains much less protein then our feed mixes and pellets. My goats got so much healthier when I reduced the protein in their grain to about 12% and alsowed them to get their proteins from their alfalfa instead.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here is this...the 5 ingredients neccesary to build rumen

http://calfnotes.com/pdffiles/CN020.pdf

And all of the calf notes. Throw out what is specific for calves. There is still very good info, a rumen is a rumen after all.
http://calfnotes.com/CNlisting.htm


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Thanks goathiker, some very interesting reads there and I know I'll be spending a lot of time reading through those notes. 

I cannot, however, bring myself not to supply hay until weaning 6 - 8 weeks ... just doesnt seem natural to me. Even if they do waste a lot of it (and lets face it yes babies do waste hay, grain, minerals) I find most of mine will nibble stalks of hay first before nibbling the grain.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Thats part of what I meant though. Goats wean at 12 to 16 weeks. In natural setting a calf doesn't wean until 5 or 6 months. I just split the difference anyway. Starting about 3 weeks old, they get a handful of hay to play with. Mine always go for rolled oats before anything else.


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

ah yeah thats a good point!


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks for the info.... great reading


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

Here is my situation. First, my son borrowed my camera for a gig he had over last weekend. Since then we had ice and snow, so he was unable to return my camera. I'll have pics as soon as he returns my camera. Having said we have snow.... I live in central Wisconsin. When the kid twins were born the temp was 5 below zero with -40 windchill. The kids got frost bite on the ears (healing well) from wetness at birth. By the time their owner got home from work and found them, she rushed them into the house to warm them up. The mom would not accept the kids back. Mom was hand milked for colostrum and it was bottle fed to the kids. After the first day of feeding colostrum, the owner put them on kid milk replacer. Advance brand. They were born Jan 21st. 
On Tuesday, Jan 22nd. I posted an ad on CraigsList looking for meat and dairy goats. The goat owner called me and told me the situation. We corresponded all week until Saturday Jan 26th and I went to pick up the kids. They were in her house in a dog crate. Mind you, the temps have been below zero all that week. Our ground is frozen, plus a layer of ice under a foot of snow. I have 2 lab dogs and the snow is up to their necks. There is no way for the kids to get a little dirt to help start the bacterial process for their stomach unless I take a chainsaw to the ground! The goats are inside my house in a large dog crate. I'm making jackets for them, to start introducing them to the cold. I will do this next week, the first week in Feb. our temps are supposed to be up in the 20's nest week. I let the kids out of the crate during the day. We all run around a circle, through the kitchen, through my leather work shop, into the dinning room and into the kitchen repeating the circle around the hardwood floor area. The other area of my house is a living room area that is carpeted. I have a gate in the door way that separates the living room. I had the gate originally for my dogs, there are times I need to keep my dogs out of the living room. In this case, its to keep them IN the living room! Away from the kids. So back to the goats. I have straw on the floor of their crate which is cleaned everyday and any visible poopers are picked put several times a day. I made a hey rack inside the crate and they have a little container of water. I live in a rural area and have well water that is high in copper. Im mixing the milk replacer with our well water. The kids to not have formed poops yet and the buck grinds his teeth. They look healthy and are very playful. But this biting on me has to stop. They don't bite other family members. Just me. They are boer goats raised for meat. If they grow up biting, I will use the goats for what they were bred for but since these are my first ever goats, I had hoped to keep them for breeding when I get more goats this spring. Yesterday I didn't make it out to the feed store, I was stuck in the snow and had to clean out the driveway. Today I'm going out to get the loose minerals and feed yeast. I am more concerned about the horror stories I read about kid milk replacer at the moment and the fact the kids do not have firmer poop. Maybe after I get this all straightened out, and their diet in tack, they will stop chewing on me. They deserve a chance. I asked the previous owner about kid milk replacer and she told me, they never had a problem using this brand. Although I have never had goats before, my instincts say I have baby goats with many issues. 

Brenda


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Some bottle babies are more prone to biting (I still have one who will occasionally bite but is getting better) 

You are doing a great job with them 

As to poops. Are they watery or more doggy poo style?


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

StaceyRoop said:


> Some bottle babies are more prone to biting (I still have one who will occasionally bite but is getting better)
> 
> You are doing a great job with them
> 
> As to poops. Are they watery or more doggy poo style?


My dogs are on a raw meat diet so I can't compare with doggie poo. lol Ummmm soft pudding would best describe. Just got home from the feed store. They sell loose mineral as an all purpose type, he says it does have copper. It's sold by the pound so I don't have the lists of ingredients. Same with the yeast. They are considered all purpose. I assume the kids don't need much so I wetted my finger tip, dipped it in the minerals and yeast than just rubbed it in their mouths. Not sure exactly how much they need and if its daily. I read where it should be free choice but I doubt the kids will voluntarily help themselves. My little girl seems kind of off today. Don't want to eat much, laying around. I think she might have upset tummy because they have started nibbling on the straw and hey. Think I'll take their temps.

Also I asked their previous owner about the chewing on me. Here is her response and I agree very much. 
Quoted"
This behavior is not a good one. You may need to spend a little less time with them and let them grow up as goats and not pets for a while. Have you researched it? It may be due to hand raising and that they had to be taken from the Mom so young. They have not inprinted on you and are not respecting you as a human. "End of quote.

I need a crash course in goat psychology 101


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

So far I haven't been bit at all today. I found the water bottle sprayer and it works!


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Ive had good success with just teaching them as you would any animal or child - patience and consistency - they need to know boundaries and that includes how they treat you. 

Glad the water bottle is working  

if their poo is more of a puddle then soft solid then the formula maybe one they cant handle well. Many here on TGS like to use regular cows milk from the store. I only use one kind of replacer and its by Land O Lakes and is just dried goats milk so no extra junk. 

The hay should not be upsetting her stomach -- what was her temp?


----------



## BrendaBeck (Jan 27, 2013)

temps were normal, 101.1 and 102. Is there enough nutrition in regular milk?


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

BrendaBeck said:


> So far I haven't been bit at all today. I found the water bottle sprayer and it works![/QUOTE
> 
> That's great!


----------



## honeymeadows (Nov 20, 2012)

Yes, there is enough nutrition in regular cows milk.


----------

