# Cocci treatment advice



## littleflower (Mar 24, 2011)

We brought home a new 8 week old buckling last Sunday. Yesterday morning, my husband did buck duty + noticed that he had soft poop (like dog poop). So we gave him 6cc of Pepto (and followed up after 6 hrs), 2 squirts of Nutri-Drench, wormed him (we do Molly's herbals) and cut out his grain (he was getting 1/8 C am + pm). He's been perky, bright-eyed, drinking well, eating hay, chewing his cud...if it wasn't for the poop, he looks perfectly ok. His temp last night was 103.3 and this morning it was 102.1-both in the normal range, right? Today his poop has become softer (like cow poop, I think). Still doing the Pepto (and gave him his 2nd dose of Molly's), but thought that this isn't just diet related, so I went and picked up some Sulmet. I just dosed him with 2cc's (he's 11#), and will continue with 1cc for the next 4 days. I also gave him another dose of Pepto, drenched him with Probios powder diluted in some water, and another 2 squirts of Nutri-Drench. He loves the Pepto!! He thinks he's getting a treat when he sees the drenching gun-thank goodness!!

Anyway, I just need some reassurance that what I've done is ok...I'm worried that the Pepto hasn't worked to harden his poop at all. I feel so unsure of myself + am worried about this little guy. When do you think I'll notice an improvement if this is working? Should I give Probios with each Sulmet dose? And should I keep doing the Pepto? Sorry for the long post + all the questions...Any help would be so greatly appreciated...thanks!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Sounds good to me. You will want to keep up probios and reintroduce grain very slowly as Nutridrench contains an oily caustic base that drowns the good bacteria in the rumen. I don't give pepto for cocci but, I doubt it's hurting anything. Good Luck!


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## helmstead (Oct 2, 2008)

Pepto is a bad idea, IMO it shouldn't be in anyone's goat medicine cabinet. 

Sulmet is not effective against cocci anymore in most of the country. Take it back, and get some CoRid or DiMethox.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I do the cocci treatment AM and the probiotics PM or vice versa. 
Sounds like you are on the right track. I had used Albon for cocci.


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## littleflower (Mar 24, 2011)

Why is Pepto a bad idea? I don't really have a lot of places to turn to get meds/wormers locally. I was fortunate to find the Sulmet. How long would it take to notice an improvement before trying to find another solution?


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## helmstead (Oct 2, 2008)

All pepto does is cover up the evidence and lock up the CAUSE of the scouring inside the intestines. Goats scour to rid their bodies of what ails them...plug that up and you'll have a dead goat probably faster than the actual problem would have killed them.

I'd rather have scours than constipation any day.

Seriously though, I have not used Sulmet for, gosh, 6 years, and it didn't work back then either. CoRid is usually readily available at feed stores. DiMethox by mail order, Albon by vet.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Every breeder has experiences with using different meds in our goats, I have used Albon from my vet and went to 12.5% DiMethox as it was cheaper AND the same med...Sulmet IS a sulfa drug, but a slight different composition as it is not as long lasting as the 1st two, I do have Sulmet on hand just in the case the DiMethox stops working...I've not use Amprolium(CoRid) so I can't say that I know much about it....as far as the pepto goes, it can save a scouring goat by preventing dehydration that can be caused by extended periods of diarrhea....another thing that I use instead of Pepto with scours associated with cocci as well as dietary changes is plain dry oatmeal...either the quick oats(NOT INSTANT) or the old fashioned type, I with hold grain, provide plenty fresh water and only offer hay and oatmeal...the oats bind the poop and even though it's not liquidy they still evacuate without getting sore bottoms or dehydrating.
Once the Albon, DiMethox or Sulmet has been dosed, it normally takes 2 days to see the poop firm up without giving pepto.
Sulmet is also the same as SMZ tabs


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

helmstead said:


> Pepto is a bad idea, IMO it shouldn't be in anyone's goat medicine cabinet.
> 
> Sulmet is not effective against cocci anymore in most of the country. Take it back, and get some CoRid or DiMethox.


hold your horses here -- such "advise" isn't necessary to be said in such a manor!!!

Now personally I believe you are on the right track. Sulmet has worked for me and save some kids lives for me. But I also agree that is isnt 100% effective in all areas. It doesnt work with every strain of coccidia.

Corid isn't the best option for treatment either but i have used it for light loads of coccidia. But a kid like yours who is scouring that bad I like the sulfa drugs like sulmet or albon, dimethox

So do the 5 days of Sulmet (the amounts you quoted sound on target) and if you dont see results in 5 days then I would look into other options.

I use Pepto many times, it doensnt mask the issue it helps to reduce the chances of dehydration. It will work if the cause of scours are just diet related. If its parasite related I have found the scours will continue regardless. I also just got bio sponge from my vet, thats good stuff too.

Probios are good to help the rumen and digestive system regulate after all the trauma.

Good luck -- hope he improves for you quickly :thumb:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I used sulmet and CoRid for prevention last year and was happy with the results. This year I'm using Albon and CoRid. If you end up needing DiMethox you can get it from www.jeffers.com. If it's not on back order.


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## helmstead (Oct 2, 2008)

Ok, then...I'll happily save time and keep my "advice" to myself.


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## littleflower (Mar 24, 2011)

Thank you all so much! Liz + Staci thank you, especially for all of that information..it was so helpful!!! I so appreciate the time you spent explaining it. I did think it was diet at first, hence the Pepto, but since it wasn't getting any better, went with the Sulmet. I really hope it does the trick. And thanks for the time frame...it's good to know so I can start finding other options as a back-up. Please send some prayers our way...he is such a sweet little guy + I'm really hoping this is over quick for him. Thanks so much!


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## SmithurmondHomestead (Jan 13, 2010)

If your kid is scouring and the pepto clears it up for 24 hours, it returns, dose with pepto, comes back after another 24 hours... haven't you just masked an illness for 2 days without treating the cause? In the case of a coccidian bloom, bacterial scouring, etc 2 days can make or break the kid's recovery.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Actually if a dose of Pepto doesn't work within 6 hours in a kid, then it's safe to think that it's not food related and to treat with the Sulfa drugs.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

chances are Pepto will NOT clear up scours that are caused by bacteria, ecoli, worms or coccidia. Ive had enough experience with them to know if its any of those pepto or kapectate will not clear it up and the scours will continue. It doesnt mask the issue as I already stated. 

Its your choice not to use it - I personally like to treat immediately but I also will use the pepto (or equivalent) when treating to help slow down the dehydration process (why do I feel like I am repeating myself here) and this then speeds up the recovery because you dont have a dehydrated and malnourished goat that you have to also bring back to health. When a goat is scouring it means that the food isnt in their digestive system long enough to be utilized and absorbed. Slow this down so the food can be utilized and malnutrition doesnt set in.

Ive had my share of coccidia over the years and a BAD BAD case of it this past week pepto & bio sponge never worked didnt even slow down the runs. So in those cases I feel it isnt even helpful and just a waste of time and effort. 

2 days may make a difference but I had kids with watery diarrhea for 5 days and they are running around my pen just as happy as could be. Took me 5 days of them haveing the squirts to figure out the problem and properly treat with the right dosage of treatment. So no 2 days wont make or break a situation in 90% of goats. Your greatest chance of quick death comes when a kid becomes malnurished and DEHYDRATED! My opinion and experience only. 

If you dont like pepto -- find Bio Sponge -- I got it from my vet, I need to see if its at jeffers. He recommends it for all scouring cases to help bind things up so the can get better


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## Goatmasta (Jun 22, 2011)

StaceyRoop said:


> Its your choice not to use it - I personally like to treat immediately but I also will use the pepto (or equivalent) when treating to help slow down the dehydration process (why do I feel like I am repeating myself here) and this then speeds up the recovery because you dont have a dehydrated and malnourished goat that you have to also bring back to health. When a goat is scouring it means that the food isnt in their digestive system long enough to be utilized and absorbed. Slow this down so the food can be utilized and malnutrition doesnt set in.
> 
> Ive had my share of coccidia over the years and a BAD BAD case of it this past week pepto & bio sponge never worked didnt even slow down the runs. So in those cases I feel it isnt even helpful and just a waste of time and effort.
> 
> 2 days may make a difference but I had kids with watery diarrhea for 5 days and they are running around my pen just as happy as could be. Took me 5 days of them haveing the squirts to figure out the problem and properly treat with the right dosage of treatment. So no 2 days wont make or break a situation in 90% of goats. Your greatest chance of quick death comes when a kid becomes malnurished and DEHYDRATED! My opinion and experience only.


 When you are treating for a symptom and not attacking the suspected cause of the symptom, you are flirting with death. My experience is that cocci or cocci like symptoms are not to be messed with and cocci will kill a baby in 48hrs or less. If you have had a baby with cocci that had the squirts for 5 days it was a misdiagnosis. You should reevaluate your feeding program, it is more likely to be a dietary issue.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ive been doing this a long enough time I know what I am talking about - a fecal was done and diagnosed with coccidia. I had treated for coccidia but to low a dose so a higher dose was administered on day 5 of the squirts and in less then 3 days we had pellets. Believe me I know my herd management and I would allow anyone to come see my barn, pens and read my records!

I also dont see why attacking me is necessary - I havent ever attacked someone for their methods. I may not agree and say so but I dont attack them.

So if you feel the need to attack me and my methods PM or email me and we can talk it out there privately.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Please ...we must remember that what works for one breeder ....may not work for another...... under certain circumstances or conditions or region we may be in.... some drugs may or may not work.... results can vary..... but it doesn't mean ..that the drug is useless to someone else herd... If we use a drug for cocii treatment and it doesn't work ..we try another....


I have never heard of Pepto being a bad thing... to me I believe in it... it is a great thing and has helped with feed change scours ....within 1 to 2 days.... If the scours do not stop with the pepto ...then I go to thinking Cocci..... But... I usually go with pepto 1st and see if it will correct....
if it does not correct ...then that is a good indication to go with another method.... 
As Stacey mentioned... she doesn't prefer corid .. but for me and my herd... it works.... I have never used sulmet but... I may have to someday...you never know... I do know... alot of members use it with alot of success..... So ....we can't say these things are bad when they are not...... breeders have their ways and methods on treatment ..... and we can't slam them because we don't agree ..... :wink:


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## Happy Hobby Farmer (May 16, 2011)

I do see what your saying there stacey(about the pepto). But I too have been told by my vet AND our childrens doctor that it can be really bad idea to use it. If the problem causing the scouring is bacterial it doesn't allow the body to flush itself of the bad bacteria. The scours might continue, but I've been told its not the same, the gut isn't getting flushed. So I personally do not even keep it in the house or the barn. I do however always have electrolytes on hand to combat any possible dehydration.

Also, for us canadians, I just learned yesterday that what is available to us for cocci treatment is Amprol - but my vet says this can be a no no as its a thiamine inhibator and can cause polio. And we also can use Sulfamethazine and to be careful again because sulfa drugs can cause kidney damage.

Also dont forget to rule out Entritis when goats get the runs, even if they are vaccinated that doesn't mean anything. A friend of mine vaccinates all the time, and every year she looses goats to entritis. 

So I think it would be a good idea to always get a fecal done, it might seem costly, but its not when you factor in the drugs you'll buy playing the guessing game.


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## SmithurmondHomestead (Jan 13, 2010)

StaceyRoop said:


> It doesnt mask the issue as I already stated.
> 
> Its your choice not to use it - I personally like to treat immediately but I also will use the pepto (or equivalent) when treating to help slow down the dehydration process (why do I feel like I am repeating myself here)


Oh, sorry I thought this was a discussion.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

You asked the same question that I had already answered.


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## SmithurmondHomestead (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm open to hearing other opinions as well, not just the one.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Cocci thrive off the thiamine in the body so to kill it some drugs will inhibit the thiamine in the body. After a round of such drugs its good to give bcomplex or straight thiamine. Corid is such a drug here in the USA - I will have to see if its the same active ingredient you mentioned. 

Everyone is going to have their "drug and method of treatment choice" this doesn't mean others are wrong.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I had gotten Thamine when I had that sick doling. The vet had told me not to expose it to light because that would damage it. I have some left and it has been kept from light in a cool closet but now I was reading that it should be refrigerated. Anyone have experience with this? Do you think its still good or should I toss it?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, Amprol is CoRid. Used at the proper dose for the proper time I've never had it cause polio in a goat. It is an excellent tool for prevention that can work for treatment in some instances. I also use Sulmet or Albon if I happen to be late on getting the med into them for some reason or if it looks like the CoRid didn't quite do the job. Doing this I'm seeing less and less cocci in general in my kids. This year so far I've seen none. 
I used to do bummer lambs and calves many years ago. Pepto saved many of the delicate little things. I bought the generic in gallon sized jugs back then. The poor little creatures always came here sick and scoury and half starved. Pepto slows the scouring without plugging them up but, more importantly has an anti-inflamatory that helps soothe the gut and helps the animal to start digesting his food again. 
Pepto was developed during a time when the infants in the US were being attacked and killed by bacterial diarreah. The med slowed the progression of dehydration and allowed doctors to get a handle on the thing. It saved many human lives during that time
Use of Pepto in babies and during bacterial scours is using it for exactly what it was meant for.


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## FunnyRiverFarm (Sep 13, 2008)

There is no harm in using Pepto if you are absolutely positive that scours are dietary. 

Using pepto in instances of bacterial diarrhea can be damaging and lengthen recovery time because it allows toxins produced by the bacteria to build up and cause further damage to the intestinal walls and can even allow the toxins to enter the bloodstream and damage the kidneys. It is better to use supportive care (electrolye solutions to maintain hydration) and biosponge or activated charcoal in these instances because they absorb the toxins. This is what I have been told by every vet I have ever discussed the issue with...It is also why people are cautioned against using anti-diarrheal medications when they have salmonella or E.coli. It may have been recommended at one time but with the research done since, it is now inadvisable. This exact issue was actually just in the news in light of the E.coli outbreak in Europe...using antidiarrheal meds and/or certain antibiotics as treatments can increase the risk of developing hemolytic uremic syndrome which can lead to kidney failure and the need for long-term dialysis. 

Cocci is a protozoal parasite and does not produce toxins to my knowledge so using pepto in conjunction with treatment probably would not be harmful but may interact with the treatment drug. I don't know enough about the pathology of the disease to understand what effects it might have. 

I know I have said it before and not everyone agrees, but...IMO, it is extremely imporatant to determine the cause of diarrhea before you give anything other than supportive care (electrolyte supplements, charcoal, biosponge). Just my 2 cents.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Using pepto in instances of bacterial diarrhea can be damaging and lengthen recovery time because it allows toxins produced by the bacteria to build up and cause further damage to the intestinal walls and can even allow the toxins to enter the bloodstream and damage the kidneys. It is better to use supportive care (electrolye solutions to maintain hydration) and biosponge or activated charcoal in these instances because they absorb the toxins. This is what I have been told by every vet I have ever discussed the issue with...It is also why people are cautioned against using anti-diarrheal medications when they have salmonella or E.coli. It may have been recommended at one time but with the research done since, it is now inadvisable. This exact issue was actually just in the news in light of the E.coli outbreak in Europe...using antidiarrheal meds and/or certain antibiotics as treatments can increase the risk of developing hemolytic uremic syndrome which can lead to kidney failure and the need for long-term dialysis.
> 
> Cocci is a protozoal parasite and does not produce toxins to my knowledge so using pepto in conjunction with treatment probably would not be harmful but may interact with the treatment drug. I don't know enough about the pathology of the disease to understand what effects it might have.
> 
> I know I have said it before and not everyone agrees, but...IMO, it is extremely imporatant to determine the cause of diarrhea before you give anything other than supportive care (electrolyte supplements, charcoal, biosponge). Just my 2 cents.


 I have to remind everyone.... that the post topic.. is about cocci.... and treatment.... :thumb:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

One thing I learned is to see what your free water is bringing onto your place. For a long time I couldn't figure out why I had such a bad cocci problem. Then I discovered that there were several uncaring "brushgoat" owners up stream on the little seasonal creek we have. Once I penned the babies away from where the water flows it helped a lot, instant improvement.


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## SmithurmondHomestead (Jan 13, 2010)

FunnyRiverFarm said:


> There is no harm in using Pepto if you are absolutely positive that scours are dietary.
> 
> Using pepto in instances of bacterial diarrhea can be damaging and lengthen recovery time because it allows toxins produced by the bacteria to build up and cause further damage to the intestinal walls and can even allow the toxins to enter the bloodstream and damage the kidneys. It is better to use supportive care (electrolye solutions to maintain hydration) and biosponge or activated charcoal in these instances because they absorb the toxins. This is what I have been told by every vet I have ever discussed the issue with...It is also why people are cautioned against using anti-diarrheal medications when they have salmonella or E.coli. It may have been recommended at one time but with the research done since, it is now inadvisable. This exact issue was actually just in the news in light of the E.coli outbreak in Europe...using antidiarrheal meds and/or certain antibiotics as treatments can increase the risk of developing hemolytic uremic syndrome which can lead to kidney failure and the need for long-term dialysis.
> 
> I know I have said it before and not everyone agrees, but...IMO, it is extremely imporatant to determine the cause of diarrhea before you give anything other than supportive care (electrolyte supplements, charcoal, biosponge). Just my 2 cents.


:thumb:


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

I would be interested to know the answer to freedomstarfarms question. As I too have not refrigerated my thiamine and would like to know if it still good.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> I had gotten Thamine when I had that sick doling. The vet had told me not to expose it to light because that would damage it. I have some left and it has been kept from light in a cool closet but now I was reading that it should be refrigerated. Anyone have experience with this? Do you think its still good or should I toss it?





> I would be interested to know the answer to freedomstarfarms question. As I too have not refrigerated my thiamine and would like to know if it still good.


 Keeps best in warm climates when refrigerated.....

If it got to warm... it may not be any good..... I'd be a bit Leary..


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Thanks Pam. I think I will get some new stuff and then toss this just to be sure.


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