# Scours in 4 month old Buck....



## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

*Scours in 4 month old Buck.... for 2+ weeks now....*

Howdy. Ok, I'm no stranger to scours but this one has me scratching my head. Originally I thought it was Cocci, so I'm treating with Sulmet. Been treating for 3 days now. Usually a Sulmet treatment clears up the Cocci almost same day and I have no response.

He has no other symptoms. Perfectly healthy looking. Acting happy and healthy. Eating plenty of hay and grass. Drinking plenty. Active. No problems other than *green liquid pouring from his butt*.

I'm going to continue the cocci treatment but PLEASE anybody have any suggestions?

Edit: I also gave him 6cc B-Complex today


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Green typically indicates diet related scours. How long has he been on pasture?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

My guess is the greens too. If you can get it I would get some oat hay, wheat hay what ever and put him on that for a few days. If it's as bad as you say a little pepto won't hurt either but I only give pepto when I'm very sure it's feed related.


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

And no grain till he's all clear.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Wow that's a pretty clear concensus. I didn't think the problem may have been too much grass. I went ahead and separated him into the small pen with the young kids (ages 1-3 months). He can't impregnate any of them right? (He's 4 months and intact)

I have no other way to ensure he doesn't have access to much grass. 

I also gave him 15cc pepto and I'll give it to him again in the morning. Thank you all for your quick help!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

How is he?
I would not have him with doelings...


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

NyGoatMom said:


> How is he?
> I would not have him with doelings...


Well he's not pouring straight liquid from his booty anymore. It's more of a liquidy gel with some fiber stands in it. But he's not nomming on the hay a lot. He's trying to scrape up the very short green grass in the kid pen and he's downing baking soda like there's no tomorrow.

I have no other place to put him for now... other than out to pasture with all the green growth. Can 3 month old doelings get pregnant? There is one 3 month old, one 2 month old, one 1 month old. He is 4 months old.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I am not sure on the doelings, but is he extending at all? does he seem aware of the girls?


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

NyGoatMom said:


> I am not sure on the doelings, but is he extending at all? does he seem aware of the girls?


He is extending sometimes. But he's hit or miss on actually caring about the girls. I haven't seen him have interest in a day or so... but then he could be interested in the next hour. He hasn't seemed interested since his tummy is upset. :shrug:

The only time he seems to want one is when I'm bottle feeding, then he'll make the crazy face with his tongue sticking out. Other than that our girl with horns makes herself very clear that "There will be none of that now!"


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

This is what his caca looks like right now. Dora got the wrong end of the stick....










Just gave him another 15cc of Pepto. It's no longer a "grass green" watery mess, but now rather brown and gel-like.... so I'll guess we're making progress?


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Keep giving him baking soda, and lots of probiotics.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Just an update. I've been giving him 15cc Pepto and gave him activated charcoal last night. Keeping up with probiotics every day and he has very little access to grass and full access to hay. The Sulmet Cocci treatment has ended but made no difference in his poop.

He still has liquidy poop and he's getting skinny. I'm worried for him and I don't know what to do. He's not "acting" like he's sick and I see no other symptoms. 

Anybody please help.


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## smorezpie (Jun 16, 2014)

What type of probios are u using?type of grass hay? Does he have free choice minerals? What is his temp? Can u post pictures


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Are you keeping him hydrated? I wonder if a different cocci med is needed...is the poop green or brown, and is it bloody or mucous filled? 

Keep up with lots of probios, vit b and electrolytes, hopefully the runny poo is his system clearing out.


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## smorezpie (Jun 16, 2014)

Try a fecal. Has he been dewormed before? If so, with what, when and to what amount


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## smorezpie (Jun 16, 2014)

Try an electrolight mixture


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

This morning he looks skinnier than yesterday but was eating hay very readily and drinking water mixed with a little ACV.

In this area at this time of year you either have straight fescue/grass hay $4/standard bale or rich alfalfa hay at $14/small bale. We use the fescue/grass hay and leave it free choice. They're on 2nd cutting now. 

We switched to using another Cocci treatment yesterday just in case that was the issue. I have not seen him poop this morning. He did pee a very neon yellow pee this morning.

We gave him 8cc B-Complex w/ 100mg Thiamine/cc yesterday and 6cc this morning. He's dying to get out on the pasture and rushes the gate every time I open it. 

We treated him yesterday afternoon with Levamisole Prohibit. Sheep dilution 14.5cc. He tape measure weighs 39lbs. 14.5cc is what I was told to give him. 

I gave him powdered Probios 2 scoops each time but I'm running out and I haven't gotten paid yet to get more. I also gave him Jump-Start a couple times.

I'm just waiting to see him poop today and then I'll have more to report.


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

The neon urine is from B-vitamins. That's one way to know that they are getting enough because the excess comes out in urine and turns it bright yellow.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Ok, his poop is now clumpy. I've spent way too much time today looking for his poop and finally I have and I am very very very happy to report his poop is more solid. Kind of like a solid human poop.... which is weird.... but at least he's not pooping water! 

My guess is the new cocci treatment... but it could have been a number of things. I'll monitor him for progress.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I'm glad he's improving!


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

..... and we're back to sludgy poop today.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Ksalvagno said to use a rumen bolus, when everything else fails. You can get it from your vet or pbs animal health. She said it cleared up her goat's diarrhea right away.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

a fecal will let you know if the cocci treatment was effective...what color is the poop? keep with hay and green leaves and electros...pepto to dry his bum..some prefere keopectade (sp)

consider orther causes....E coli, Salmonella,here is a link to give more info...
http://goat-link.com/content/view/46/75/#.U8WIdY1dV2A

if you are dealing with bacteria infection then you can try neomycin..a safe oral antibiotic....


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> a fecal will let you know if the cocci treatment was effective...what color is the poop? keep with hay and green leaves and electros...pepto to dry his bum..some prefere keopectade (sp)


It's like a brown/green sludge. It seems to change color occasionally. I'll need to double check what color it is this time. :eyeroll:



happybleats said:


> consider orther causes....E coli, Salmonella,here is a link to give more info...
> http://goat-link.com/content/view/46/75/#.U8WIdY1dV2A
> 
> if you are dealing with bacteria infection then you can try neomycin..a safe oral antibiotic....


I may have to start looking into that. A friend of mine suggested Neomycin but I won't be able to pick it up until tomorrow.



canyontrailgoats said:


> Ksalvagno said to use a rumen bolus, when everything else fails. You can get it from your vet or pbs animal health. She said it cleared up her goat's diarrhea right away.


What is a rumen bolus?


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

It's a bolus filled with two meds that kick start the rumen. I think it's from the makers of probios..


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Neomycin ( biosol is another name) might help...I believe its 3 cc twice daily..try for three days...see if poop firms up, you dont want to over do and cause constipation


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> Neomycin ( biosol is another name) might help...I believe its 3 cc twice daily..try for three days...see if poop firms up, you dont want to over do and cause constipation


I'm trying to track down some CD Anti-toxin. I'm thinking that _may_ be what the issue is. His momma died right after birth so he wouldn't have enough CD/T in him from the small amount of colostrum he had and I don't remember/didn't write down if I gave him a CD/T shot.

I'm going to go around the whole herd and hit them all with CD/T Toxiod again but I need to find an Antitoxin shot for him. The feed store doesn't stock it and they won't have any in until _"maybe"_ next Tuesday if they did order it.

They do have Neomycin in stock so I'm going to dose him with that. I'll see if I could get hold of a Ruman Bolus as well.

In case the issue is bacterial I gave him some garlic to help kill/hinder any excess bacteria until I get the meds.

*sigh* will keep y'all updated.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

I spoke with the vet and he told me "It's probably just Coccidia or worms you don't need CD Antitoxin."

"But sir, I treated him twice for Coccidia and he hasn't responded. I used Sulmet for 10 days and Ditrim for 4 days."

"Well you just aren't using the treatment I'd use for Coccidia and that's why he hasn't cleared up. I need a stool sample and we could take a look at him."

"What about using Neomycin? Are you sure it's not bacterial?"

"No, these sorts of things are caused by worms or coccidia, you need to collect his droppings with a plastic cup and bring it over."

"I treated him with Levamisole and Ivermectrin for worms, I'm sure that would have worked."

"It's probably just Coccidia, you should bring in a sample and we'll look at it under a microscope."

".............. Umm........ ok.......... how much will that be?"

"About $24.... $29.... or something like that."

"How long will it take?"

"Oh about 10 minutes or depending on how busy I am in the office."

"Ok.... I'll let you know, thank you."

*I'm calling horse-dung!* :GAAH:

You mean to tell me you won't get me the CD Antitoxin because FOUR medications I gave did not work?! Dangit what? Do these worms have armor plating? .....................................


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Alright, I went to the vet and he talked with me again. I told him I dosed 1-1.5cc Ivermectin and about the cocci treatments I underwent with him. The vet GASPED that I gave him that much Ivermectin and said "I'm surprised you didn't kill him!! The dose is 1cc/100lbs!"

No it's not, and I know it's not. I asked him about the fecals and he told me "Yep, it's an infestation." "Really? That's shocking..." "Yep, well I told you that you need to use what I recommend. Give him *.4cc* of Ivermectin once and 990mg of Corid per day for 5 days." "And what about bacteria." "There is no bacteria" "So you're saying this couldn't be bacterial?" "No, you have a worm infestation, you need to give .4cc of Ivermectin and the Corid." *"Point 4 cc* of Ivermectin to kill the worms?" "Yes" "What was the worm count?" "I... uh.... I counted 8 eggs." "8?" "Yea, you have an infestation!" "Ok... Thanks for your help."

That was the long and short of our conversation. He counted 8 eggs and called it an infestation, told me Sulmet and Ditrim was useless and said 1.5cc of Ivermectin would *KILL* a 40lb goat kid. He is a super nice guy personality wise, but I think I'm going to start looking for another vet with more goat experience. 
*
That being said, I'm dosing Jude with Corid now, but if it doesn't start improving by tonight I'm going to immediately hit him with the neomycin I just picked up.*


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Definitely get a new vet, and treat with the neomycin...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

wow....nice people can have thick heads too lol...Im so sorry..I guess Im spoiled my vet doesnt second guess me...he just smiles and give me what I ask for...He did get wide eyes when I told him I inject Ivomec lol...oh well...good time to start looking for a vet who will listen to you...
8 eggs is not a festation...i would be concerned dosing another cocci treatment..he has been over run with treatment...I would wait and use the Neomycin...pepto and follow up with probiotics when treatment is done..his gut is most likley void of any bacteria..good or bad...

Cd antitoxinis hard to find anymore...I think we all need to send in a letter to TSC to once again carry it...in the mean time you can order from Jeffers.....


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Yea he really lost it when I told him about the Ivermectin. 

I gave him the 'everything under the sun' treatment. Corid, Neomycin, Jump-Start, B12, Iron, B-Complex, and Electrolyte mix. 

That was about 4 hours ago. I was just out there hanging out with him and he was letting go of very liquidy, green diarrhea. Not projectile, but very watery. Nobody else has any problems and there is one kid which is with him most of the time and a couple girls who 'visit' for short periods for lack of a proper 'isolation' bay for Jude. I've moved everybody else out though.

He's eating hay and hating it (he wants out on the pasture so bad) and drinking tons of water. I really have no idea what more I could do at this point. 

How long should the Neomycin take to go into effect?

Edit: I forgot to mention his temp is 104.2


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

*Salmonella?*

I'm scratching my head about this.... but is there a chance it could be Salmonella? I mean he's had it for weeks but the prognosis of Salmonella says he would only have 24-48 hours to live...

That aside one of the symptoms of salmonella is watery greenish scours. We have chickens and sometimes they will drink out of the goat water by standing on the edge of the water buckets. I'm usually very good about watching if anybody accidentally deficates in the water and dump it out... but maybe? Or maybe he ate a blade of grass with chicken poop on it?

:thinking:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I think you need to be done with any meds and treat his rumen at this point. See if your vet has rumen boluses for cows. The ones that strictly get the gut flora back to normal.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

He's bloating up. We're trying to figure out treatment now. From what I've been told 1/4c of cooking oil. Please confirm. Thank you.

Edit: It's 9pm now. There is no way we're able to run to any vet or feed store at this hour, but we can go to the grocery store.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would do a couple squirts of dish soap in about 20 ounces of water.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> I would do a couple squirts of dish soap in about 20 ounces of water.


Ok. I'll give him a little time to settle then go back out. I gave him 1/4c of sunflower oil immediately after my last post and walked/dragged him along on a leash for a while. He burped a lot but I could see he's not done.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree to stop the corid, 8 eggs is not enough to continue...I would continue the neomycin...for 3 days...give probios 3 hours after each dose of Neomycin to help restore flora during treatment...and B complex..
is there any floul smell? temp is a bit elevetated..101.5-103.5 is normal range..
Its good he is eating and drinking on his own...
check his eyes for anemia...you want to keep an eye on that...keep a watch onhis temp as well..
Neomycin may take a day or two before you see it working..


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

massaging the left side walking and bouncing the belly, elevated the front legs..all help with bloat...


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> I agree to stop the corid, 8 eggs is not enough to continue...I would continue the neomycin...for 3 days...give probios 3 hours after each dose of Neomycin to help restore flora during treatment...and B complex..
> is there any floul smell? temp is a bit elevetated..101.5-103.5 is normal range..
> Its good he is eating and drinking on his own...
> check his eyes for anemia...you want to keep an eye on that...keep a watch onhis temp as well..
> Neomycin may take a day or two before you see it working..


There is a slight foul smell. Not too strong but it's there when it's fresh.

I think I will stop the Corid.

He does have slight anemia... I think? It's hard to see because the eyelids at his age are so small, but I think he has anemia?

We have *Kefir *we make as well. Would it be good to give him that to help the rumen bacteria?

I'll take another temp as I go out there with the dish soap/water mix. I also have Gas-X. Would it be ok to give him a pill?


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Keep massaging his belly. Really rub and get it rolling. Walk or run him around. Don't let him lay down till his bloat is gone.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes. You can give him the gas-x.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Kiefer is good to give....

here is a link with an eye chart...grade his color and go from there BUT take care of the bloat first : )

http://goat-link.com/content/view/110/107/#.U8c18o1dV2A


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> Kiefer is good to give....
> 
> here is a link with an eye chart...grade his color and go from there BUT take care of the bloat first : )
> 
> http://goat-link.com/content/view/110/107/#.U8c18o1dV2A


He's a 3-4 if I'm looking at his lids correctly. I dosed him 1.5cc Ivermectrin earlier today as a 'just in case'. He tape measure weighs 39lbs around the girth. I gave him 2cc's iron and 4cc's B12 earlier today.

I gave him the Gas-X and soapy dish water just now and tried to walk around with him. He was very belligerent on the leash to say the least, which is very unlike his character. He is burying his face in hay as we speak.

We sat on the porch with his front legs up a step so he was elevated while I massaged his sides. He had a lot of little gas bubbles as we sat there.

I did not see him poop while I was out there just now.

I wanted to temp him but I can't seem to find my goat thermometer. I bet any money I set it down outside earlier and it's somewhere by his shelter but now it's very dark outside so it'll have to wait until morning.

My wife is baking "cake cookies" in anticipation of the long night of going outside to check on him. I'll check on him in about another 20 minutes (11:30pm EST)


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

sounds like he needs a bit of rest now...as long as the bloat is addressed...a 3 is "ok" and even if he is a four..he wont need to be wormed again...its good to wait 10 days before giving a booster..
iron and B 12 will help him restore red blood cell...iron should only be given once daily for a week then once a week until color is improved..
so for now I suggest let him rest..keep a close watch and continue the neomycin 2 times a day for three days along with probios 3 hour after each neomycin dose..after the 3 days, see where to go from there..


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> sounds like he needs a bit of rest now...as long as the bloat is addressed...a 3 is "ok" and even if he is a four..he wont need to be wormed again..............after the 3 days, see where to go from there..


I just walked back in from checking on him. He looks much better. I gave him a little more dish soap. Very 'full' looking but at least he's not anorexic like he was the other day. Perhaps he's starting to normalize...... :?

I don't even remember what normal looked like for him. It's been such a long time. (2 weeks or so)

While I was out there I took a moment to really look at his eyeballs. He's a 3. Not a 4.

I'll keep up the Neomycin for the next couple days and keep a special eye on him. I wonder why he started to bloat. *sigh* That was scary. His mom died of bloat shortly after he was born. He's eating hay like there's no tomorrow this evening. Maybe that's why. He hadn't really been eating a lot before.

Time for him to rest and for me to rest. Goodnight and I'll keep y'all updated.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

good news...the hay will help his rumen move....best wishes


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

How is this morning?


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Ok, morning chores are done. 

Well he's alive. Bloat is completely gone this morning. (what a difference from last night!) Temp this morning was 101.8. Poop this morning was a goopy/sludgy brownish color.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

so glad his bloat is gone...temp looks great..keep with the neomycin and pepto along with the probiotics 3 hours after each neo dose...B complex is a good idea as well..keep it simple...be sure he stays hydrated..eating hay...

best wishes


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> so glad his bloat is gone...temp looks great..keep with the neomycin and pepto along with the probiotics 3 hours after each neo dose...B complex is a good idea as well..keep it simple...be sure he stays hydrated..eating hay...
> 
> best wishes


Will do. I think he's out of the fire compared to where he was. Still need to correct whatever is going on with him. Hoping the Neomycin will help that. I gave him 6cc B-Complex a few moments ago along with 1/4c of Kefir (wow he loved that stuff), and 10g Jump-Start. I'll follow up with another 5g Jump-Start before we go out for a hike later.

I'll keep y'all posted on any significant changes and I'll post tonight his temp and status.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Ok I just gave him 3cc's Neomycin and took his temp at 104.0.

Poop is brown and sludgy. I was honestly a little scared it was going to shoot out at me as I was taking the temp. :?

And yes, it smells.

Edit: I'm playing with the idea of upping his Neomycin to 5cc's instead of 3cc..... Talked with a *real* vet today and he told me it could be E. Coli especially since it didn't respond to the TWO Cocci treatments and he said "8 eggs is not an infestation....."


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would keep the dose at 3 cc twice daily..give it a chance to work..you dont want to over tax his system...If its ecoli this will take care of it...Also Pepto can make the poo stink bad too...and can get a greyish look to it...I would keep with the 3cc every 12 hours of neo, pepto to sooth and dry him and B complex..dont forget to give probiotics 3 hours after each dose of neo ...keep him hydrated...
His temp is once again slightly elevated...keep a watch on it
You are doing great with him...keep it simple : ) 

Best wishes


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> ....His temp is once again slightly elevated...keep a watch on it....You are doing great with him...keep it simple : )


This morning still liquid poop. Brownish in color. He's still nomming on hay and drinking water. I tried taking a temp but the thermometer's display doesn't work anymore. My guess is liquid in the display..... go on.... ask me how.... ask......:laugh:

It's honestly mentally and emotionally exhausting. I have him completely isolated at this point. I do not want the others to be effected in any way.

Keeping up with the probios, Neomycyn and Pepto.

I've been having some conversations with him reassuring him he'll get better and I've made extra sure to let him know he's "not allowed to go anywhere". :tear:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Awe...poor little guy...lol..Might need to change his name to Pants... as in poopy pants.. think I can guess how the thermometer got wet YUCK lol...
as long as he is eating and drinking and staying active we are doing ok...I know its frustrating..sometimes the chronic runs can wear us out more then the goat!! We worry so much,,work so hard and we really want them well..
Im going to do some more research and see if there is not some hidden sign disease lol..
were you ever able to find C D Antitoxin??


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> ....sometimes the chronic runs can wear us out more then the goat!! We worry so much,,work so hard and we really want them well....Im going to do some more research and see if there is not some hidden sign disease lol....were you ever able to find C D Antitoxin??


True Story. It's very draining. All I can think about is "Goat Goat Goat Goat" and it's a little hard to concentrate on work a bit. I'm a little grateful I don't have many pressing deadlines at the moment.

I'm not sure what else it could be, but if you come up with any ideas please let me know.

I just got back from meeting up with a client and checked in on him and his poop looks a little more 'gloopy' than it was this morning. This morning it was spraying liquid. I'm not jumping for joy yet, I'll see how he is in another couple hours when it's time for round two of today's Neomycin. :shock:


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Sorry I'm late to post. This morning his poop appears to be slightly thicker... more of a paste which in my mind is an improvement. He's still acting as best as could be expected. We had a pretty rough evening with lots of rain and there was a hole in the roof of his shelter. This morning I noticed that and he's all wet. I ran to the feed store and got him some nice fluffy bedding straw and he's a lot happier. 

As I said earlier I separated all the other kids and goats from him until he's better so as consolation for him I put our guardian dog with him to spend time. He was very sad and complaining until I brought in our 150lb puppy for him to snuggle with.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Sorry your guy is having such a hard time. I've mentioned giardia few times in other threads, but I don't think anyone else here ever tested for it. Testing for it paid off for me and I'd feel bad if that was it in your case and I said nothing. Testing can be expensive, but it could save you in the long run. Are you dealing with resistant Cocci? Giardia? Both, or some other combination of diseases?

I treated for giardia as well as cocci when I had two doelings shipped to me. I think the one doeling gave them to the other. Someone else's kid on the same transport got sick a few weeks later and died after a short illness. (A necropsy was performed and coccidia and giardia were found.) Incubation period for giardia is 1-2 weeks. You'd need to have a fecal test run, preferably an ELISA test because it is more sensitive.

You could start by finding out if giardia is an issue for dogs, cats, and/or children in your area right now. It seems to be more of a problem in young animals.

In addition to Probios, I gave my doelings Saccharromyces Boulardii which is sold for people. I read that it is helpful for IBS in humans after treatment for giardia.

The University if Wisconsin has some information on giardia on the Internet -- they say it can start with watery stools which then become semi-formed and foul smelling. Bloating can occur. Fever is not as likely as with bacterial infections. Repeated tests may be needed because shedding of the infective cysts is cyclic and the disease can be chronic if not treated.

My vet had a doe that never had normal stools (clumpy) until she treated for giardia. I don't think many vets test for it.

Hope your guy gets better soon without more trouble and expense.
Vicki


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Something to think about if this doesnt clear up!! Thanks for shareing glndg!

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/scours.html



> Giardia
> Giardia-induced diarrhea is more commonly, but not limited to 2 to 4 week old lambs and kids. The diarrhea is usually transient, but infected animals can continue to shed cysts for many weeks, providing a source of infection for other animals and possibly humans. Infected animals can be treated effectively with fenbendazole (SafeGuard®, Vabazen®).


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

That really is something more to look at. Thanks for the input. I do have Valbazen on hand. I usually only use it to treat tapeworm if it ever shows up. 

However, Giardia is not a bad thought. They were drinking water from the stream....... :thinking:


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

I would be careful about treating for giardia if you don't know that he has it. If a goat gets ill from fenbendazole, you are supposed to stop that treatment. It would be hard to know if your goat was having a reaction because he is already sick.... And part of what is going on with him could be related to other treatment(s) he has had. The dosage, if it seems appropriate, is higher for giardia than for worms. l 'll look it up, but I think it was 10x the regular goat dosage. Nothing to mess around with IMHO.

Also, my goats were on a longer treatment than usual for coccidia because the vet thought that there could be some resistance issues. The one goat had already been treated for a few days before being shipped. A few days didn't fix the problem and it took more than a few days' worth of treatment here. 

You don't hear about giardia in goats much, so maybe goats can usually handle some giardia, but if more than one pathogen is at work, it might be too much for them.:thinking:


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

I was told to use safe-guard dewormer for goats, which is fenbendazole suspension 10%, for 5 days.

You have Valbazen, and I have no idea what the dosage of that would be. You could ask your vet, hope he knows. 

You also don't want to treat for something he doesn't have because it could contribute to future resistance problems.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

And, yes, the safe-guard was at 10x the regular dosage for goats in order to treat giardia. When retested after treatment, no giardia was detected at all. 

But if your goats were drinking from a stream, it does seem possible.....


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

From what I read, goats don't normally get sick from Giardia. They apparently have resistance to it except for some kids which hadn't received proper support growing up.

His mom died a day after his birth. We were only able to milk so much colostrum from her before she died and then he was on milk replacer and cow's milk for the first month of his life.

Giardia or not, the difficult birth and raising process, unbeknownst to me, may have caused him to have a weaker immune system.

All I know is the problem is being caused by a parasite *or *bacteria. *sigh*

From what I know I really couldn't imagine it to be Cocci. Two full treatments of Sulmet and one treatment of Ditrim should have at least caused him to firm up at least a little.

I had also given him both Levamosol and Ivermectin worming treatments and none of my other girls have a worm overload. Unless I'm dealing with a super parasite there's no way I could imagine it being worms.

My last option had to be bacteria just by elimination so that's why I thought about E. Coli...

I tried calling the vet I have issues with to get Jude's records and when I requested the fecal results they said "We just have positive for HOT complex." "Any details? Count?" *"No."* "Does it say anything about Cocci or details over what parasites were found?" "*No, there's no mark indicating he has Coccidia* and the records here just say a *plus *sign, meaning you have a 'couple' parasite eggs. We have a few other ways indicating including ++ and +++ indicating a REALLY heavy load. He had one plus sign."

I thought to myself "Gee thanks for wasting $25 for me and leading me on about Coccidia...."

So there is my story with the vet. I don't know, I'm still hoping the Neomycin will clear him up.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

How many days has he been on neo now? any improvment on the poop? is he still acting well, eating drinking active bright eye and alert??


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> How many days has he been on neo now? any improvment on the poop? is he still acting well, eating drinking active bright eye and alert??


He's been on Neomycin 3 days now. His poop appears to be thicker as of last night. He's sill acting well, eating and drinking by himself and "bright eyed and alert". 

Physically, other than the bloat the other day, he's been active and alert the whole time. He's REALLY wanting to get out into the pasture and fights me for the door every time I go into his pen.

Today he's just a little irritated that it's been raining all day but other than that our guardian dog has been keeping him company. He was complaining a lot until I put our dog in with him. Probably getting a little lonely. :|


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Had he ever had a normal Berry poop since you had him...or does it seem every time you turn around hes poopy?...


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> Had he ever had a normal Berry poop since you had him...or does it seem every time you turn around hes poopy?...


Well of course he had normal poop. I had him since birth and bottle raised him because his mom died from eating mountain loral and after a traumatic birth with him, she never gave birth to his twin and we never knew she had another kid inside of her until after she died.

I'm estimating it's been about 14-20 days since his poop went from normal pellets to _water_. Now it's a sludge.

He's now 18 weeks old. 4 1/2 months.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok....just couldnt remember...I asked because I have a friend who has a little doe who stays poopy...since birth...hardly ever a berry from that girl...no matter what she does..
14-20 days is still along time to be poopy...I think I would do a few more days on Neomycin along with some pepto then stop and start probiotics...see how he does...You dont want to stop the neo too soon and have a total relaps...


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

He did have a rough start, poor guy. It's interesting though, because the vet said that my doeling looked like she hadn't been "mothered well." Cathy found info stating, "Giardia-induced diarrhea is more commonly, but not limited to 2 to 4 week old lambs and kids. The diarrhea is usually transient,…" My doeling was almost 10 weeks old. Perfect storm? Virulent strain? Resistance? Who knows.

It does sound like it would be worthwhile to get a second opinion if your guy doesn't get better soon and if you can do it, especially if you can find a vet with a lot of experience with goats.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you get another fecal done, make sure they check for emeria (sp?) Coccidia. That type sometimes needs a stronger coccidia med like Marquis.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

*Evening Update*

Ok, just came back in from evening chores. I purchased a new thermometer so I could resume temps. His temp is now *102.0* even. I took it 3-4 times to be sure.

His poop is *no longer watery*. Again.... ask me how I know. :shock: At least I didn't get it in the screen this time.

The poop is more like the consistency grass which was put in a food processor on low... If that makes any sense. In other words it appeared thicker than this morning. We may be on an upswing here! :stars:

He took the *3cc of Neomycin* like a champ and he's out of baking soda. When I'm finished writing here I'll go give some more. In 3 hours I'll give him another dose of *probios* along with some *nutridrench *and *pepto*. I've been giving Probios about 3 hours after the Neo dose for a couple days now.

I also gave him another *5cc B-Complex shot*. When I see that his poop is consistently thick then I'll give him some Jump-Start to help push him into the home stretch. I'm running low on supplies and I don't know when to expect the next project check so I'm trying to use what we do have wisely.

I would LOVE to get another fecal done, but we simply cannot afford it at this moment. I have a friend about an hour away though who has a setup to do fecals. I might take a drive....

Edit: I forgot to mention his temperament is good and active still. He does not appear to be bloating and he does not look 'skinny' this evening.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

*I just realized....*

I have not examined so much poop in my life.... Between the goats and my human kids I'm going to turn into a "Fecal Connoisseur".

Now all I need is a French accent..... :lol:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

One thing about goats owners...we are obsessed with poop!! lol

Temp is great!! I would skip the baking soda..hes had plenty..keep up the good work!!..sounds like he may beat this!!


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

simeo said:


> I have not examined so much poop in my life.... Between the goats and my human kids I'm going to turn into a "Fecal Connoisseur".
> 
> Now all I need is a French accent..... :lol:


LOL! That's great news. Even if he has something more that a test could find, with all the supportive care he's getting, he may be able to kick this on his own now.... with all your continued hard work too, that is.:grin:


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

How is he today?


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

I just took his temp this evening. *102.5*. Continued all the *same *treatment as before* minus the B-Complex* today and only 1 time with *10cc of Pepto*. I did dose him with *4cc of Valbazen* as an extra measure this morning. (Don't shoot me, I did it 'just in case' it's something else. I felt like doing it.)

I also know that whenever I get sick I do not head straight to the doctor or ER. Truth be told we still have yet to establish a family doctor for our family. My wife and I very effectively (by the grace of God and with lots of prayer) treat every sickness, deep cuts, and infections which happen to ourselves and our children.

So it passed my mind to drum up a broad spectrum herbal dewormer and anti-bacterial/inflammitory/viral for Jude based on what "might" be happening... _*because in the end, I have absolutely no clue what is wrong with him.*_

I researched every herbal dewormer online I could find (Molly's, Hoegger, Havaliah, and a 'Homemade' recipe) and cooked up a spice rack combination of *Cinnamon *(Bacteria, Viral), *Garlic *(Bacteria, Virus, Parasitic), *Clove *(Bacteria, Anti-Fungal), *Cayenne *(Anti-Inflammitory, Stops bleeding of the intestinal walls), *Mustard Seed Powder* (Antibiotic, Laxative) *Psyllium Seed Powder* (thickening agent, intestinal lubricant), *Rosemary *(Anti-Inflammatory), and *diatomaceous earth*.

I then poured hot water over it and let is steep for a long while before drenching Jude with 60cc of the awesomeness... twice today. I also drenched *everybody else in the herd* with the mixture twice. I have enough for the next three days.

The ones who fought my madness and the drenching syringe was not able to pass completely into the back of their throat received a *glorious taste* in their mouth the *color of the rainbow*. :slapfloor:

At 1am this morning his poop was back to being like water. I had a hard time sleeping thinking about it. This evening what poop I have seen from him has been thick. I do not see the usual streaming lake of liquid caca flowing down his butt and manhood and the only fresh poop I have managed to find (he hasn't pooped in front of me yet) was very thick. Not pellets yet. But thick.

Granted I didn't take the time today to watch him like a hawk to examine his poop, but it was flowing so much I didn't need to wait long in the past to see what's up. When I took the temp it was relatively solid. I was so stressed today from Jude I decided to get away for a while and took my daughter and our pack-goat in training for a short hike. I needed to get away.

He's eating hay, drank water, drank 2 quarts of electrolyte mix and is still complaining to go to pasture. He does not seem lethargic or ill.

If I don't report more tonight I'll be sure to check in after the morning chores. Goodnight.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

I forgot to mention I gave everybody including Jude an updated copper bolus Saturday at 1g/22#.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

I was waiting outside for Jude to caca tonight to have a caca update. I only saw him poop early this morning which was liquid. And then this afternoon I saw what looked 'thick'. For lack of patience this evening so I could actually get some sleep tonight I shot a little water up his booty to help move things along.

After a couple moments the water I shot in ran out... followed shortly by..... *TWO BERRY CLUMPS!!!!!!* They were 'wet' but more solid than anything I've seen come out of his booty for weeks! I know he's not at '10' yet, more like a '7' but that's better than anemic and water streaming from his butt!

I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO HAPPY TO SEE CACA IN MY LIFE!! :bday::balloons::horse:

Of course we're not out of the fire yet, but we're walking in the right direction. Will update tomorrow. Goodnight anybody who may be following.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Yea for berry poo!:dance: Amazing how exciting the right kind of poo can be.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yahooo for the berries...sounds like he might be on the mend...once you see thick poos...playdough or better..no more Neomycin is needed..just a few days of probios to restore flora...

now dont get mad..BUT NO MORE WORMER lol..you are beating a dead horse lol...hes good for now..in a few weeks you can get a fecal done or better yet do one at home...might be fun lol..only treat worms when worms are indicated...time to let him go play with the others....watch him careful...maybe a few hours out at a time..see how his poop does...

best wishes


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Cathy, remember Shep. This little dude seems to be running the same course. Shep had Coronavirus. There was nothing that could be done except supportive care. Shep was back to 100% about 3 weeks after starting on the disease course. He was the only one in my herd to get it.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I do remember shep!!I didnt even think of Coronavirus...so either neomycin is working or this has run its course lol..


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

I appreciate the input. I'll stop with the wormer (sorry) but I will continue with the herbal mix I made up. If it is indeed Coronavirus then the garlic may kill it with it's anti-viral properties. We use Garlic, Ginger, Rosemary and Licorice to treat the flu and I kid you not what would have been/is a 2 week recovery for us turns into less than 24 hours.

Isn't Neomycin an anti-bacterial, not anti-viral?

What happened with Shep in the long run? Is he ok? It has been about 3 weeks since he got this....

This morning temp is *101.7*. I dosed *Neomycin 3cc*. (I guess this is my last dose of Neo) Gave him the *Herb Mix*. And *we have goat berries *this morning!! *BUT* interesting enough his poop has a clearish/off-white *mucus *lining coming out with it too. *What could that be??* I'll give probios in about an hour.

Will do fecals next week at a neighboring farm. They have a setup.

He will be so happy to get out on some pasture if y'all could confirm with a thumbs up he's good to spend some time. He looks so depressed watching the rest of the herd nom on some grass.

Edit: I did some google searching on the mucus. This isn't the 'long stringy' mucus some searches are talking about and it's not foamy or yellow. It looks like somebody hawked a loogy out of his booty.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

I just got home and checked on Jude again. *Scours.* A big huge splat of it and it's running down his rear.

*sigh*


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Oh, no.:sigh:

Did you do your herbal treatment yet today?


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

glndg said:


> Oh, no.:sigh:
> 
> Did you do your herbal treatment yet today?


I did.

I'm thinking Giardia. I treated him with Valbazen yesterday which is supposed to kill Giardia. I'm thinking I'll continue to the Valbazen treatment.

onder:


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

I was wondering about that too. Something was working.....


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

I wonder what thoughts Cathy, Jill, or others may have. Could what he had yesterday (valbazen, herbal formula) have been helping and he needs more/a longer treatment period, or.....could something he had yesterday have caused diarrhea for a different reason other than what had been causing it previously? Does it look the same? I've never used Valbazen -- can it cause diarrhea?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I think I would stop everything...but give B complex, probios and pepto..then after a few days if he is still runny do ONE thing at a time...do your home made herbal ..wait and see if he improves...if after a day or 2 with no improvment..then try the valbazen...wait a day or two see how he does..basically allow time for each to work and see which was making him solid...His system has enough meds in him for an army lol...As long as he is eating and drinking well, staying hydrated...he is not in an emergency situation and has time to figure out whats working...this will take patients...

Best wishes


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Level-headed, systematic approach!

I looked up neomycin ( you all probably knew this) and a side-effect can be watery diarrhea. I didn't look up anything else - there could be other suspects as well. :book:


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Yesterday his temp was 104.1 and he picked up the scours again. I dosed *4cc Valbazen* (1cc/10#) and* 60cc of my herb mixture* and last night his poop was solid again.

This morning his poop is thick but runny again (like playdough). His temp is *101.7* this morning and I'm *discontinuing the Neomycin*.

I'm holding off on giving him another dose of Valbazen. I gave him *60cc of herbs* this morning and I'm going to give him a *B-Complex* *Thiamine *shot and *Probios*.

I'm looking at *Giardia *if it was the Valbazen which caused his poop to firm up.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Hang in there!

Random thoughts:

Ammonia, not bleach, is good for disinfecting giardia

Looks like ph test strips might come in handy: http://goatconnection.com/articles/publish/article_38.shtml

Some types of diarrhea have a certain ph. Having bacterial and viral infections at the same time can make the ph results less useful.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

I dosed *4cc of Valbazen* mid-day in case of Giardia followed later by *10g Probios* and *4cc of B-Complex.* I also gave him *1tbs of Garlic* and *1tbs of Cayenne* in a drench. :slapfloor:

Poop is solid all day, however he rarely seems to poop. I believe *he's mildly constipated* and he had some *gas/bloat* earlier today. He was farting and burping a lot and *stretching a lot* mid-day. He was not complaining, just sleepy.

Possibly because I cut him off the Neomycin and maybe because of the Valbazen. Peeing without an issue.

Drinking water fine. Not eating hay as much as he was. I did let him out on the pasture for a couple hours today. He was OVERJOYED and wagging his tail the whole time. It was a very happy moment for me to see him so happy.

The entire day his poop was solid. Not pellets. Just Solid.

This evening I gave him *30cc of herbs* and I'll give him another dose of *Probios*.

Tonight his temp is *103.1*.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

good news for solid-ish poop...maybe rest from meds and herbs.and see how he does...watch close for the first sign of things getting loose...let him graze with is buddies once the dew has been burned off the pasture...wet graze can cause loose stools as well...he needs the food to get his rumen really going...

best wishes


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Solid is better than liquid. Nice to hear that you were both happy today.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

He's no longer solid this morning but rather a mushy, wet playdough form. I was not able to take a temp yet because guess why? At least this time the thermometer didn't get too wet. 

I treated him last night with the herbs, but no Valbazen. I also gave him 10g Probios last night. Last time he had Valbazen was yesterday around 2pm. I think whatever is causing this is being stopped by the Valbazen... but he's relapsing in less than 24hours from the dose.

Some sources online recommend dosing 2x/day and even 3x/day but I need to double check the dosage levels.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Didn't you say you had a friend nearby that could look at stool samples? That would be really helpful if you knew for sure what you were dealing with.

Although you treated for cocci, it can't necessarily be ruled out as at least part of the mix of what's going on. If you have a strain that is resistant to the meds you have used, or if the treatment wasn't long enough, it could still be a culprit.

Even for a vet with test results, their initial approach will be their best guess at what they think will work. When my doelings arrived needing treatment for cocci and giardia, my vet wanted to know exactly what they had been treated with and for how long before she decided on a course of action.

One possibility is that your guy could be resistant to sulmet and not had a long enough treatment of Corid. He could have giardia as well. Or he could have something entirely different going on.

He did eat grass yesterday. That could affect his stool as well.

Hoping things go well. Wishing you normal berries!

PS -- This article shows how difficult a simple case of cocci can be:
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/coccidiosis06.html


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree a fecal is in order..


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

And the corona virus -- did the stool go back and forth like this? 
Jill, how was it diagnosed?


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

This evening his temp was *102.3*

*Today I laid off all drugs including no pepto.* I thought I'd give him some time to reset.

I did however take two heads of garlic and one onion, 1 1/2 quarts of water and 1/4 cup of ACV w/ the mother, 1/2 cup of sunflower oil and blended it together.......I know you're rolling your eyes at me.

I figured the garlic mix would be less violent to his tummy than meds or the previous herb mix and the oil would help fight any bloat or constipation to help his digestion.

I dosed him with garlic *60cc* *every 3-4 hours* today followed by doses of Probios.

This morning his poop was like wet playdough when I first went out to take his temp. Then it turned into water about an hour or so later. It was another couple hours of streaming water from his booty that I decided to give him garlic.

*His poop started to firm up into playdough and thicker until today he had his first pine cone!* (pellets stuck together in a lump) His poop never lapsed into water since the first dose and it seems to be working it's way solid. Now the real test is how does he do overnight while I'm not able to keep up the dosing.

I agree on the fecals. It's just a matter of breaking away for a few hours to go out and schedule with my friends very busy timeline. It's not as easy as I would hope.

Whatever is causing this is multiplying so quickly any improvement quickly dissipates when the pressure subsides (ie the Valbazen being dosed once every 24 hours instead of once every 12 hours). I don't want to just leave him be if he's streaming water because if this multiplies that quickly during the day we could end up with a dead goat overnight.

That is why I'm keeping up the pressure even when I'm not 100% on what's causing this.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

You must be exhausted! Hope the pine cones continue and then return to berries. He's lucky you are staying on top of things.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

I'm stupid exhausted. It's midnight (again :sigh: ) and I just gave him his last Probios for the day. His butt looked like it was still dry and he was eating hay at the moment. 

We'll see what the morning brings.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Hopefully it brings pellets and a happy goat


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

This morning his *temp is 102.3.*

*His poop fluctuates between solid and mushy.* He's grinding his teeth a lot and his boy part was sticking out and he was peeing and marking himself. I don't think he's excited to breed, I think his body is screaming at him a little.

He looks very skinny and was disinterested in grass/hay. To make sure he still had apitite I put pellets in front of him to which he immediately leapt for. I took them away from him so he didn't eat much, but at least I know he has appitite. He just didn't feel like it at the moment.

I'm going to dose him with *10g probios* powder and I already gave him *30cc of the garlic drench*. That's all he'll get until the next I check on him in a few hours.

By the way, I don't know if anybody following this thread is Christian, but if so I would really appreciate prayers for him and myself. Thank you.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Grinding of teeth usually mean gut pain...I would give CD antitoxin ..I know you are fighting hard to stop the runs..but I would back off on the garlic drentch right now...
you can offer him leaves and alfalfa pellets to encourage eating...
here is a home made electrolyte recipe to get a bit more fluid in him...
Prayers and best wishes are being sent !!

Homemade ElectrolytesA half gallon of hot water
2-6 Tablespoons of Unsulphured Blackstrap Molasses
1-2 Tablespoons of Either Sea Salt, Epsom Salt, Baking Soda or Table Salt.
1 cup of Apple Cider Vinegar


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Maple leaves are really beneficial to goats as well. They have sugars in them. I am a Christian and will pray for you both.


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## aunteeeeee (Jun 27, 2014)

I just read this whole thread.. How is Jude today??


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

I do appreciate the support y'all. This has been a very draining process.

Well this afternoon I had some appointments to take care of. By the time I got home at 5pm Jude looked in very rough shape. *Very literally skin and bones and his thighs looked hollow in the back.* I was able to see his ribs very clearly. I ran his temp at that moment and he was *104.3*.

He was also practically bending himself in half in spasm while humping the air, but not grinding his teeth as much as he was this morning.

I called the new vet and explained the situation. He immediately ruled out worms when he heard he was running a fever. Additionally after running through Corid, Sulmet and Ditrim for Cocci and Ivermectin and Levamisole for worms plus all the Valbazen I gave him.... we knew it wasn't worms. "Scours with a fever is almost NEVER parasites." We ruled out E. Coli because the Neomycin would have kicked that pretty quickly.

*After some on the phone diagnosing the vets best guess was Giardia, Salmonella or abomasal ulcers.* Which is pretty much what I thought. He also mentioned BVD in passing but that is excruciatingly rare in this area...

I've spent the last I'm able to spend on him. Until I have another project for my company I can't buy any more meds so I'm seriously hoping this last run will do it.

He gave me *Diarsanyl* for to sooth the intestinal walls. It contains electrolytes and other nutrients to help him from the loss and to push out any toxins from his system. 10cc/day 6 days.

*Metronidazole* 250mg for Giardia. 5 to 7 days treatment every 12 hours.

And *Resflor Gold* which is basically Nuflor (broad-spectrum antibiotic) with Banamine mixed which is supposed to hit everything from A to Z (Salmonella, E. Coli, BVD, and more) to be dosed every 48 hours if his temp is above 103.

I set Jude out on grass in hopes he would eat something and traveled to the vet's location and purchased the medications. When I got back he was sort of trying to figure out if he wanted to eat something and I took Jude's temp before dosing him with the new lineup. *105.1* !!!

I went down the line with his new medications and waited.

After Jude got over the chocolate paste of the *Diarsanyl* (I could smell it) I led him to water to drink a bit. He then proceeded to eat tons of pasture. He ate and ate. I had to remind him to drink too.

This evening I gave him *10g of Probios* and his temp is now *102.3* Poop is solidish. *sigh* I think I could sleep tonight. (1 AM)


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Wow. A least some things have been ruled out and you have some new meds. Hope he improves quickly. The treatment my goats had for giardia was only five days and they were clean when retested. Different meds though.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

*Jude 2 Days Ago*

I just realized I hadn't uploaded many photos to this thread. Here's a pictures of Jude two days ago. You could see how he was starting to get skinny. Today was really scary but after treatment he seemed to gain a higher appetite. In this photo he's eating a small pine tree I cut for him.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

He's really cute!


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Poor thing. Hope he does well today. Still praying for a recovery. Rest today.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Poor thing. Still praying for a full recovery. Rest today.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

pine is great for him...offer as much as he wants...hope things get better soon!!

hes a good looking fellow!!


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Well today was interesting.

I'm sorry I didn't make a morning post. I went to my friends house to run fecals on everybody.

Jude's temp this morning was *101.9*. His poop is *dark *green and *thick*. It also *smells *really bad.

When we ran fecals on everybody we did the normal count on worm eggs and determined I need to work out a new worming plan for my kids/girls.

JUDE HAD ZERO PARASITE EGGS. Maybe all that Valbazen....... He had a couple straggling cocci eggs but not any to make any difference. We're actually going to base our new worming protocol for the farm on Jude's incredible results. I may write more on that later. But it was either the Ivermectin I gave him (don't think so), the 1cc/10# of Valbazen I gave him (maybe), or the herbal wormer I brewed up or a combination thereof. We've split up the girls in a way to narrow down what exactly killed off or removed ALL of Jude's worm eggs. Testing on the results will be in 5-7 days. I'll try to remember to post the results.

What Jude did have though was a very very strange organism. Neither myself nor my friend has ever seen something like this before and it was NOT just roughage. This was a virus or bacteria which was all over his fecals.

It was like a dark circle with threads/feathers all around it. And there was a lot. Similar to this image: https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/medi...abservice/cvrlimages/0908limerick-400x300.JPG

Honestly I'm hoping what I saw wasn't that image, but that's the closest thing I could find which looked like it. The image is of a protozoa.... and if that's the case then it may mean an intestinal rupture.

I'll continue to do more research on this and I really do appreciate the prayers and support.

His temp this evening is *103.1*.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That's Coronavirus, the halo is how you tell. This is one


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Might be a silly answer, but when I did my first fecal, I got all upset about what I found and called the local goat farmer and asked her to take a look. I saw, just about what you are explaining, except, what I was viewing was actually dried air bubbles

If his poop is really smelly, I would suspect e.coli There's a product as TSC called Scour Halt. Its made for pigs, but specifically for e.coli. I had two day old kids that it worked wonders on


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

goathiker said:


> That's Coronavirus, the halo is how you tell. This is one


That's very similar to what it looks like minus the color, however, I thought a standard light microscope isn't supposed to be able to see virus'?

http://penpals.web.unc.edu/2013/04/14/what-microscopes-do-you-use-to-see-microbes/

Edit: Cornavirus is similar to MERS/SARS.... SARS is treated in China using Licorice tea. And I just bought a bunch of loose Licorice root not long ago for myself. I think I'm going to make a tea for kicks and giggles and give it to Jude tonight once and tomorrow three times (with the other treatment too) See how well that works out.

http://www.realnatural.org/can-lico...ers-research-finds-it-antiviral-against-sars/


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I honestly don't know on that. Shep's vet was able to see it, I didn't ask if he had an electron microscope. He's just an old horse doctor??

Anyway, Shep did recover fully from the virus. He passed away later from a faulty heart valve. I had taken him for a long hike and swam him a lot about 2 days before he passed. From the autopsy we couldn't determine if the virus affected his heart or if he was born that way. His mother had been a poor doer so, I suspect it was congenital.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Ok, his temp is *102.8* this morning. I gave him another *cup of tea* same as last night in case of Coronavirus. I also gave him a bowl of 'goat oatmeal' which is steam rolled oats and alfalfa mixed and soaked very long in hot water.

I also gave him *10cc of Diarsanyl* and his *Giarda tablet* in case of Giardia. If he has a temp over 103 this evening I'm supposed to give him another shot of resflor gold tonight.

His poop is 'solidish' I took a picture of it this morning.

Thank you all for your prayers and support!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds like he is on the mend.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yep looks like he is firming up!! good job


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

That last poop pic looked promising. How is Jude today?


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Sorry I wasn't able to post until now. I left my computer somewhere yesterday and couldn't get it back until now.

His temp this evening is *102.7*. *I'm continuing the treatment the vet gave me however it's not working. *

His poop is no longer flaming watery scours, however it is continuously a *very dark and gloopy, gel-like blob.* Been like this Saturday evening into Sunday.

I'm wondering if his rumen needs help? I've been giving him Probios.

He's also not drinking very much water. I had to drench syringe him to get some fluids in him this today. I'm now officially out of Diarsanyl. And I haven't seen the need to inject him with any more Resflor Gold. Vet told me to only do it if his temp is over 103, which it hasn't been.

*sigh* What's wrong with you Jude...................


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Probios is probably not enough at this point. Ask your vet for rumen boluses.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Poor Jude. Definitely a difficult diagnosis.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

He has had alot of meds...these can compromise the rumen for sure...Personally I would stop all wormer, antibiotics ect......give his tummy a rest...if you cant get a rumen bolus..you can steal a cud from another goat and give it to him...

also put a few teaspoons of baking soda in enough water to drench and give that to him...I would also keep him on C D antitoxin until he is better...b complex is a good supprt vitamin.. Get him eating hay and leaves...vines ect..get that rumen functioning...


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

It wouldn't hurt to put in a call to the vet and let him know how Jude has responded to the meds. He has all the history already and he may have a specific recommendation at this time.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

happybleats said:


> He has had alot of meds...these can compromise the rumen for sure...Personally I would stop all wormer, antibiotics ect......give his tummy a rest...if you cant get a rumen bolus..*you can steal a cud from another goat and give it to him...*
> 
> also put a few teaspoons of baking soda in enough water to drench and give that to him...I would also keep him on C D antitoxin until he is better...b complex is a good supprt vitamin.. Get him eating hay and leaves...vines ect..get that rumen functioning...


Wait..... I can steal cud??? 

Nobody in the area has CD Antitoxin. No vet. No store. I've been giving him B Complex.

I'll be sure to give him a baking soda drench but he's been eating the free choice soda himself no problem.

I do think it'd be best at this point to stop the treatments. There's no response so I'm drugging him for nothing.

I'm going to get in touch with the vet today to let him know the status. He's a little negative and condescending which is why I avoid calling him simply to call "Oh your playing vet are you? Your goat is probably going to die you know? Oh you want to try this? Well ok.....????" I just weed through it all to get to the point because he's the only vet in the area which has been responsive and knowledgeable. I think it's just his poor bedside manner.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Just a minute, have you had soda out for him the whole time? During the cocci treatments and everything? 
Sulfa DON"T WORK in the presence of soda and it messes up the usefulness of many other drugs INCLUDING antibiotics.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Just a minute, have you had soda out for him the whole time? During the cocci treatments and everything?
> Sulfa DON"T WORK in the presence of soda and it messes up the usefulness of many other drugs INCLUDING antibiotics.


Yes. Baking soda has been offered free choice the entire time.

*sigh*

*Update on "stealing cud": I'm now missing two of my fingers and my hands smell lovely. :shocked:*


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Ew, yeah cud smells nasty. Those back teeth are sharp. That's never a fun job.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

The vet may be more congenial since you are giving feedback on Jude's response to his prescribed meds. 

Someone had a post about how to steal cud --don't remember the thread. You could start a new thread to ask -- there are people here who have done it. I did send you a pm with a little info on how to get a cud into a goat, but it is vague about how to get the cud from other goats.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

stealing a cud is not fun or easy..you need to watch and see when a goat brings one up grab him/her and being careful of those sharp back teeth scoop it out lol...You have to be fast before the goat knows whats going on lol...then push that cud in the mouth of the little buck...

if need be place a syringe or splinter free board into the mouth of the goat youre staling from so he or she cant bite down...might take two people if you are not fast enough...


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Oops! I had a phone call and didn't get my last message posted in time. I just read about your smelly fingers. You know that blog I mentioned? It says to wear gloves because of the smell....


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

*SHIGA-TOXIN CAUSED BY E. COLI*

Guess how I know? My wife took my 9 month old son down to the goat pen to say goodbye to Jude because the two of them were going on a trip to visit family. A couple days later (last Saturday) my son was running high fevers. Sunday he went to the hospital with fever and diarrhea. They've been running tests on him ever since to figure it out. (which is part of why I haven't been making too many posts)

Everything was returning negative UNTIL a few minutes ago. He tested positive for Shiga Toxin. The doctors say the only way he would have gotten it was by putting feces, however small amount, in his mouth!

Babies mouth everything........................................ So my son is being put on Cipro and we now know how to treat Jude!

It's bittersweet but I'm extremely happy and relieved! :leap:


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

That's great news that you know what is causing Jude's health problems. So sorry that your son is sick too, but at least you know what to do for both of them, and that is cause for celebration!:dance: Gotta hand it to you, you hung in there through thick and thin! Literally.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

And you can see it with a regular microscope? Awesome,something new to learn about.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

wow...Something to def. read up on!!...Im so sorry your son is ill..!!..


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

What are Shiga toxin-producing E. coli?

Some kinds of E. coli cause disease by making a toxin called Shiga toxin. The bacteria that make these toxins are called “Shiga toxin-producing” E. coli, or STEC for short. You might hear these bacteria called verocytotoxic E. coli (VTEC) or enterohemorrhagic E. coli (EHEC); these all refer generally to the same group of bacteria. The strain of Shiga toxin-producing E. coli O104:H4 that caused a large outbreak in Europe in 2011 was frequently referred to as EHEC. The most commonly identified STEC in North America is E. coli O157:H7 (often shortened to E. coli O157 or even just “O157”). When you hear news reports about outbreaks of “E. coli” infections, they are usually talking about E. coli O157.
In addition to E. coli O157, many other kinds (called serogroups) of STEC cause disease. Other E. coli serogroups in the STEC group, including E. coli O145, are sometimes called "non-O157 STECs." Currently, there are limited public health surveillance data on the occurrence of non-O157 STECs, including STEC O145; many STEC O145 infections may go undiagnosed or unreported.
Compared with STEC O157 infections, identification of non-O157 STEC infections is more complex. First, clinical laboratories must test stool samples for the presence of Shiga toxins. Then, the positive samples must be sent to public health laboratories to look for non-O157 STEC. Clinical laboratories typically cannot identify non-O157 STEC. Other non-O157 STEC serogroups that often cause illness in people in the United States include O26, O111, and O103. Some types of STEC frequently cause severe disease, including bloody diarrhea and hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS), which is a type of kidney failure.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

How is your son?


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

glndg said:


> How is your son?


He's doing better. I saw your comment earlier but I wanted to wait until this evening to have a better idea of how he was. Last night he was still throwing up. They have him on Cepro.

He's stopped throwing up and he seems to be returning back to normal. The fever has not returned, which is great.

Jude is..... well.... I think Jude's rumen is really shot and I'm having some difficulty getting it jump started. STEALING CUD IS HARD and my girls officially hate me for it. He's still scouring but it's not water anymore.

We ran fecals today. What we saw in his feces last time is no longer there. So either they were artifacts (which I highly doubt) or the reason he was scouring is gone and now we're just trying to straighten out his gut.

We tested with our herd Cydectin, Valbazen, Herbs, and Ivermectin today in fecals.

I'll post results probably tomorrow but the number one *BEST dewormer was Valbazen*. Eggcounts dropped from 100+ to 0-3. Yes.... Zero to Three eggs. Four goats were dewormed with Valbazen to reach these results. Two were dewormed one day and two were dewormed 3 days in a row. Dosage was 1cc/10lbs.

The next best was *Cydectin*. The goat tested dropped to 2 eggs on a slide.

The *Herbal* test was inconclusive (I know... bummer right? 2 of the 4 had lower counts and 2 of the 4 had higher counts. I'm wondering if it's the mixture.)

Finally injected *Ivermectin* was like pouring water on our goats. Counts rose. One kid rose to 97 eggs.... and this on fresh pasture. These received their first dose of Valbazen today. :\


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Have you tried giving him any MOM for his rumen? I have been trying to follow the thread the best I can but can't remember.


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I like using acidophilus tablets for people, to help start the rumen. They seem to be effective, and my goats will readily eat them. You can also try feeding him yogurt...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I use dark nasty yeasty brewery beer to jump start rumens, works everytime. I don't let it go flat either. The science of the bubbles can be looked up but it helps digest more of the good stuff.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Well, that's a relief that you son is improving.

Beer for a goat's rumen?! I can see that....
Well, though you have a variety of suggestions I have one more. :smile: Maybe something, or a combination of somethings, will work.
Saccharromyces Boulardii is a probiotic yeast. (Maybe there's a beer connection.) I couldn't find an article specifically related to goats, but it has been studied in people, horses, and other animals for use in chronic diarrhea following antibiotic use.
Here is a link to its use in horses:
http://kppusa.com/faqs/saccharomyces-boulardii-support-horses-healthy-digestive-tract/

I went into the cupboard and found what was left from when I gave it to my doelings. I'll PM you.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

goathiker said:


> I use dark nasty yeasty brewery beer to jump start rumens, works everytime. I don't let it go flat either. The science of the bubbles can be looked up but it helps digest more of the good stuff.


When you have the time, could you elaborate, please?

Do you just walk into a micro--brewery and say, "I'd like some of your dark, nasty, yeasty beer....to go!" ? :shrug:

And how much beer does it take? Do any of them like it?

:thankU:


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Dark beer is a lager beer. Like Samuel Adams or yuengling I believe Guinness is too.

Give 1 12oz can. Drench it with a drench gun.

I don't drink any sort of beer so as far as taste goes I have yet to give it too a goat but our horses and dogs will go crazy for it.



Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Around here we have no shortage of micro-brew beers being sold in every store. Any really dark beer will work. Obsidian Black is a good one. I start with about 4 ounces for a little guy 6 or 8 for an adult. Most of the time they are eating fairly quickly afterward. 

My guys do like beer. A couple of them will chase you down and steal yours.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

goathiker said:


> My guys do like beer. A couple of them will chase you down and steal yours.


I just got a few mental images of drunk goats. :crazy:

:laugh:


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Around here we have no shortage of micro-brew beers being sold in every store. Any really dark beer will work. Obsidian Black is a good one. I start with about 4 ounces for a little guy 6 or 8 for an adult. Most of the time they are eating fairly quickly afterward.
> 
> My guys do like beer. A couple of them will chase you down and steal yours.


:ROFL: Yeah, and it makes me wonder how anyone came up with this remedy!

Thank you, Jill and Samantha. This is an excellent thing to know about.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Jude is dead.

Yesterday he barely ate anything and drank very little. From what I could tell I don't even know if he drank today. This evening I went to check on him and he was in his normal 'spot' ready to sleep. I gave him his probiotics for the evening and noticed how bony his neck was. 

I was shocked he became so bony over the course of one day. I decided to give him some water via drench. He wasn't happy with that so after I sat down with him and put him in my lap like he enjoys. He was super peaceful and I almost fell asleep with him. When I got up and put him down he started to bloat. 

I picked him up and carried him to my house to give him something to stop the bloat. By the time I had the oil and soapy water it was too late. He died at the steps of my porch. I sat next to him for the longest time in disbelief. 

I buried him under one of the unused raised beds about an hour later. He looked so peaceful. The picture is of Jude a couple days ago. 

I do not believe it was e.Coli. None of my other kids are exhibiting signs, there was no response to any antibiotics over-the-counter or prescription, and apparently the beach my wife went swimming with my son has had a few other e.Coli reported cases recently. 

I do not believe it was Salmonella, Worms, Coccidia, Coronavirus, Cryptosporidium, or Giardia. 

The only thing I could say at this point is I wish I had tried CD Antitoxin. Nobody stocks it, none of the vets, none of the stores, no special order. I'm going to order it from Jeffers and I'm going to keep it on hand. 

It's 2:53am. Goodnight and thank y'all for your support. 

Pear Tree Jude 3/13/2014 - 8/3/2014


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

:hug: you did so much for Jude , I'm really sorry it ended this way. He was a fighter, and you fought with him til the end.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

awe..Im so sorry.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Oh, no.....I am so very sorry.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Oh I am so sorry. Hugs.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

Thank you for your well wishes. I've been going through the day trying not to think about it and I keep looking at that raised bed every time I walk past. I wish he could have recovered and I wish I knew what was wrong with him. It doesn't feel like he's really gone but the farm is strangely empty today. I miss his annoying "knaaaa!" everytime I walked outside and say "Jude! Your a goat Jude!" and he'd talk with me. He loved people so much without being excessively annoying and he just liked hanging out with you in the pasture without jumping all over you. (Unlike his sister from the same sire... )

*sigh* Thank you again. I'll turn my focus back to the others and finally get some work done too. God Bless.


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