# Bad Luck?



## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

For the first time in 4 years, we found babies on the ground, already dead. And not just one, but 3!!

Pheobe lost one of trips, and she's a second freshener who had twins before.

Rosie lost two of trips, and she's a first freshener.

I might be able to chalk one up to bad luck, or Rosie's inexperience, but I can't help wondering if the kids were already DOA or if moms just decided they weren't healthy enough. Can does tell if something is wrong with a kid? even a FF?

I would also think nothing of it, but it happens that this year we breed our NDs (Pheobe & Rosie) at the same farm, to unrelated bucks (as far as I know). Do you think the farm is ok? Can I go back next year assuredly?

Basically i'm just wondering if this is something I should expect now and then, and it just happened to hit me all at once this time. We did have one C Section before where the kid died, but all the other times the mom knew enough to clean up all her babies . . .


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Did any look premature? Usually when there are DOAs she needs help cause she will quit pushing.
Ive had does try to reject & they dont know what they're talking about cause I have two rejects who are now still healthy ol gals.
How's your minerals? Grain? 
Are they over conditioned, underconditioned?
Yes sometimes stuff happens beyond our control. FFs dont always know what they are suppose to do at first.
So sorry this happened but let's look at management to help you. :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry....  

I agree...where they preemies...when was her due date?

If she was early... she could of gotten slammed and it trigger her to abort...

Or... there is a contagious aborting disease.....and the Doe needs to be tested for it.... 

Doe's do know when something is wrong with a kid but to lose all 3 seems a bit odd....


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Were they still in the sack?


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## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

sorry, there seems to be a misunderstanding

She had them on 143, two were dead I don't know if they were ever alive, and one survived, having been cleaned off by the mother. That baby was very healthy, and fluffy when I found them.

ONe of the two dead ones looked partly cleaned off, but I think its face was covered. The other was still almost entirely in its sack, at least its front end. They were both cold when I found them. They had teeth, and all their fur, they looked a bit bigger than the one that survived.

All my goats have access to free choice hay, loose minerals, mineral blocks, browse, and water. She was a little over a year old when she had them (her birthday was May 24th) the same age her mother was when she was a FF. They get grain twice a day, she was on a cup and a half, of Blue Seal Caprine Challenger. Her udder is full, she's paying attention to the survivor really well, She's doing well. 

Pheobe lost one of trips, that baby wasn't cleaned off, and we caught her a lot sooner than we caught Rosie since Pheobs hadn't really cleaned all of them off yet. The baby that was dead was still in a sac, looked almost like she had had another baby on top of it. There was a lot of goop is all I know.

does this help?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It sounds like they died from suffocation.... the bag may of been to strong...some are very thick ....and momma didn't lick it away from their noses...so they could breathe...I am so sorry....


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

It is not at all uncommon for kids to die if there is no human assistance. They easily can become tangled, get stuck, not come out in a timely manner, be stuck in the bag, etc...I imagine that is one of the reasons nature designed goats to have multiples in the first place, so that hopefully at least one survives. I have to assist, if ever so slightly, in many of the births here. However, even without that tiny assistance I feel many would die just because they don't get air when they need it.


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## klingshirnm (Mar 3, 2011)

We had a FF kid/abort on us this year it was day 143 also, but the doe was going through some bad times. Belly and udder were full of adema. But the vet came out and took the babies and cut them open took their lings out and put them in a bucket of water. They sank. He said if they float the kid had tried to breathe or at least got something of air. Told us the babies were stillborn. If you are able to do that, at least you would know if the kids came out alive of not.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Wow...I don't know if I could handle that! But it would give some peace of mind. Sometimes I lose one, even though I am there to help out. Comes out in a timely manner, sack broken, fluid cleared from lungs... And still lost them no matter how hard I tried to help them breathe. Alive but died very quickly and never seemed to get air no matter how hard they gasped. I always assumed on those that they were squished, or something was wrong internally but I always cry and blame myself on those few. I wonder if the float/sink test would work if they tried for air but there was just something wrong where they couldn't get any? Would make me feel better if those ones sunk...if they floated I would feel worse about them passing knowing their lungs could get air.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

thats kinda cool to know klingshirnm.
As what was said before, maybe the sack was thick. I know someone that noticed this year he had to break almost all the sacks and it was very thick. I dont know what would cause it to be so thick, lack of, to much of, but it might be something to think of. I have a old cow that came in with out a calf, I didnt know what happened, but the next time she was bred I kept her penned and when it was time I saw the bubble, just watched and nothing was going on, I went in to help her and I had to get a nail to break the sack. Again I dont know if this is just her, or if she didnt get something or had to much of something, but she will be back penned when it is time. 
Also, I am so sorry your kidding is not going well!!!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

we noticed a lot of thick sacs during the drought ... i chalked.it up.to some.kind of.mineral.deficiency. fwiw i have never seen a goat break the sac if the baby is born.in it ... dunno why but ive never seen them open.it.and get the baby out. the instinct seems.to be lick not bite. 

anyway someone.has already said it but if you have a strong stomach you can do a post mortem of sorts.on a kid found dead. first thing is to check the hooves. if they still have the hoof caps on then the kid never got to its feet. then you can open the kid and as has been said, examine the lungs. lungs that have breathed will be light pink and float in water. lungs that have never breathed will be dark reddish colour and sink in water. finally if the kid has breathed and made it to its feet you can open the abomasum (fourth stomach) and if they have managed to suckled there will be clotted.milk there.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2012)

That sounds more to me like they were bred to a Chlamydia infected buck. In the future put those Does on Aureomycin/CTC at the rate of 500ppm phpd for 14 days at 21 days from kidding date. The kids will be bigger and alive and to term. To date this year I have had 2 dead kids at birth out of 160. 2 abort in the first 3 months of preg. due to Chlamydia I am sure since 70 of 125 head were displaying symptoms to include Pink Eye of various stages at that time. I put them on CTC and all that stopped.
If you have more to kid then it is not to late to break the cycle even if they are later in preg CTC will keep the kid in the oven longer. Some would use Oxcytet injected but don't recommend it since it is not good for bone development in young animals. Research it a little.
Just my 2 cents which is probably only worth a penny but put it out there anyway.


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## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

sounds possible. I'll have to get in touch with the buck owner to see if she had problems, but as far as I know she has a closed herd with tested animals. She asked about mine so it seemed pretty safe.

The sacs didn't seem thicker than usual, but maybe they were. And I'd rather not float their lungs, lol. Not because I'm queasy, but because they are animals I feel a bit more responsible for. Not sure how to describe it. Besides, its too late now. I've already buried the bodies. Down by where Amara is, may she rest in peace.

I hope next time that the girls will WAIT for the times when I'm checking on them to go into labor. But of course, that never happens. Its definitely not going to make next kidding season very nice for me. But I'm planning to get kidding cam.

Thanks for all the advice and words of comfort + wisdom.

The baby, Cypress, has some gooey stuff around his eyes. Doesn't look recent. He's very active, eating, peeing, pooping, wants to be farther than mom is comfortable with. Should I be worried? He had a bit of an odd start, even though he himself has always seemed healthy....


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

As to the eye...
Put a couple of drops of penG or terrymcin(sp) in the eye...for a few days....it is just a cold in the eye.... 
But first... make sure... there is nothing in the eye that is irritating it.... :hug:


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2012)

Not sure that they would admit it if they did but maybe. I would just get in the practice of preventing the same thing from happening by keeping everything up to date on CDT and feeding CTC for that last month of preg. It sure makes a difference in the quality of the kids.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Personally i would prefer not to bulk.feed antibiotics as a preventative unless i have test results shoeing that my herd is at risk. JMO

Wouldnt chlamydia abort all kids in a litter? And arent they premature.if chlamydia affected? 

Given that one was found in the sac i would say that is the most likely cause of death. The others may have been weak from being multiples or stillborn or had mucus or sac over the nose.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Personally i would prefer not to bulk.feed antibiotics as a preventative unless i have test results shoeing that my herd is at risk. JMO
> 
> Wouldnt chlamydia abort all kids in a litter? And arent they premature.if chlamydia affected?
> 
> Given that one was found in the sac i would say that is the most likely cause of death. The others may have been weak from being multiples or stillborn or had mucus or sac over the nose.


 I agree.... and I believe it was suffocation...


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