# december kids not growing



## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

i have 7 decemeber kids that are not growing. they are boer goats. i feed them alfalfa and boer goat developer free choice. we are on well water on our property and ive heard that that could be the problem but i already had the water checked and everything came out good. what can be the problem?. im in western washington state and i know we are deficient in copper and selenium but the kids look healthy ive been giving them replamin plus once a week. has anyone ever had problems with their goats not growing and what did you do to change that?. im new to raising goats and any feedback will help. thank you.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Have they been treated for coccidia?


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

yes. ive been giving them dimethox every 21 days for five days since they where born and their feed has rumencin.


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## bamaherd (Jun 14, 2017)

Not sure what could be the cause but I would feed them some Calf Manna. It really helps give them a nutritional boost.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Have you had a fecal done to include coccidia to ensure what you are doing is working?


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

no i havent done a fecal. im going to have to send some samples to the vet. would it be ok to also deworm kid goats every month since birth just in case?.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

How much do they actually weigh? Can you post pictures of them? Have you dealt with the sire or these bloodlines before? Sometimes there can just be a line that is extremely slow growing, or even has a defect that makes them not grow much...


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Replamin does not have any iodine. Do they have iodized salt, sea salt, kelp, anything like that?


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

they have loose minerals. does that have the iodine in it?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Many do, some don't, Manna Pro does not, for instance. I don't know what you are using. If you tell me what you are using, I'll look that up for you.

Kelp meal, iodized salt, and sea salt like Redmonds are excellent sources of iodine. Some stock salt is NOT iodized. A lack of iodine can cause poor growth.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

i use payback 16-8 loose minerals.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

i use payback 16-8 loose minerals


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Definitely collect a few fresh representative fecal samples to have analyzed and make sure your parasite program is working. You farm vet should be able to do it, although sometimes the price is high. There are also places you can mail them (with an ice pack). 

What do they weigh right now?
Can you post a few photos?
What age did you wean them from the dams?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The iodine in that looks fine

http://www.paybackfeeds.com/tag_book/documents/2550_16-8_GoatMinPlus.pdf


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

thank you all for your help.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)




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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

the buckling by in the far end by the wall is a week younger then the other ones and he is alot bigger. but the rest are very small for their age.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

i weaned them a week ago and they are 3 months old.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

So most of this slow growth would be while they were still on the moms?How was the milk supply? 

Or do you meant you just weaned them from the bottle? If so, how long were they on the moms? and how much milk were you bottlefeeding daily?


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

they where on the moms the whole time for 3 months. amd they where eating hay too.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

and the moms had good size utters


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Then I'm thinking inadequate milk supply from moms and or a genetically slow developing line. But a fecal for cocci to be certain is good.

Udders can be large but not very productive...

I do like your minerals...


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Is this for a commercial type operation? If yes, consider getting some dairy goats to breed to your buck, I've read in numerous sources those crosses give the fastest growing kids.

No help if you need them purebred, however...


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## Boer goat27 (Jun 30, 2017)

Is your feed name brand or local feed mill?


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

im doing commercial and registered stock.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

the feed i use is CHS PAYBACK. its boer goat developer with 17% protein.


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## Boer goat27 (Jun 30, 2017)

HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr said:


> the feed i use is CHS PAYBACK. its boer goat developer with 17% protein
> I only ask because local mills due to cost use cheaper substitutes for ingredients which will slow growth


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

They are getting 17 % protein so that is a good grain.

So I would suspect worms and/or cocci.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

so will it be a good idea to start deworming kid goats once a month from birth?. just in case or will it harm them.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't, you don't know what you are deworming for, you see. 

Your slow growth came under the dam time. Lack of milk and cocci prevention are issues then. or genetic slow growth. You've provided cocci prevention (you have not tested for cocci, so we don't know that is an issue, please test for that cocci) but don't give parasiticides blindly, please, for all our sakes.

Check for the parasites, and look to increase the milk supply for your next batch of kids.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

thank you for the advice. i just want all my goats to be healthy and dont want to deal with this problem in the future. i will do a fecal to see if its parasites or cocci.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr said:


> i just want all my goats to be healthy and dont want to deal with this problem in the future.


We all hear you there.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Free choice alfalfa and free choice Payback weaned at 12 weeks? Those guys should be monsters!

Check your does for parasites as well. 

Although undersized - your kids do not look particularly rough or unhealthy just based on those photos. 

Have you gotten weights on any of them?


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

im going to weigh them later on today and ill will post they weights


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

People who raise Boers can tell a lot from current weights, but if you have a previous weight, like at 2 weeks they weighed ..... and now they weigh .... I suspect that would help too.

Not me, everything I do is by eye, so I suspect I can't help you any further. Good luck, I do mean that.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

thank you for your help


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Oh, and WELCOME to TGS. I mean that too.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

thank you very much. this site is very helpfull and very nice people. thank you all


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes, get a fecal for worms and cocci in case, from the smallest goat kids. Just a few will let you know what is going on. 

If you had them on cocci prevention and dosed correctly, that may not be an issue unless the cocci med didn't work or they were not treated individually. 
If it didn't work, it can stunt growth and future growth as it kills the stomach lining so they cannot absorb proper nutrients. 

Worms can cause stunted growth as well.

If you have triplets however, they are smaller than twins or singles as they grow.

It can be slower genetics, they may bloom later.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

what is the best wormer for goat kids?


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

ive been giving them dimethox 40% at 1cc per 15 pounds. thats what ive read the dose is for cocci prevention.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Just a fast question since I’m thinking along the same lines as mariarose and I didn’t see this mentioned or asked. What are all the kids birth ranks in the picture?


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

in the picture where there are 4 bucklings eating from the same side of the feeder. the first 2 where born december 18th. and the other 2 on the far end by the wall where born christmas day amd those 2 where from different dams and that one buckling is twice the size bigger. in the other picture where only 2 are they are twins amd where born december 19th.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Sorry I missed one of the pictures but that answers my question. I was wondering if the big one was a single and the other three were triplets which can make a HUGE difference but that is not the case here


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Your coccidia medication may no longer be working. But the best med is the one that works on the parasite you are having the problem with. That is why a fecal is needed. So you can treat for the right parasite.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

i just weighed my goats and the biggest one is 40lb. and the rest are 28 to 30lb.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, get a fecal for worms and cocci, that will let you know.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

had a fecal done and vet said kid goats had cocci and strongyles. i gave them ivermectin a month ago and been doing previnetive treatment for cocci with dimethox 40% every 21 days. so what am i doing wrong that they have that? is valbazen good for stongyles?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, Ivermectin is good for strongyles but if it has been used over and over in a herd, the strongyles may have become resistant. Have you been dosing at 1mL per 30lbs ? Is it possible you have been underestimating the weights when dosing? 

What dose of Di-Methox? Dosed individual or in water? 5 days straight?

Valbazen can be used, 1mL per 10lbs. Repeat in 10 days. Do not underestimate weights. Overestimate if you can't weigh- there is a factor of safety. 

Did the vet mention if they were particularly high counts? I would probably choose to treat the strongyles then see if that fixes the cocci count.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

i was dosing with ivermectin at 1cc per 25 pounds. and dimethox 40% oral at 1cc per 15 pounds. i just bought a 500ml of valbazen and going to start them on that every 10 days 3 times. is that ok to do that?.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, apparently the strain of strongyles is resistant to Ivermectin. The Valbazen should do the trick for you.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

ok thank you. how about for cocci?. should i continue with dimethox?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

When you use the Di-Methox previously was it given 5 consecutive days?


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

yes. does it work better if i give it to them fasting?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@SalteyLove would Baycox from the vet be a step up from the Dimethox?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Since it sounds like Di-Methox is not working on this farm, Baycox or it's generic Toltrazuril would be the "step up". Unfortunately, even from a vet, neither are approved for usage in the US as far as I know. However, there are places to order online. 

But there are other strategies as well - could you feed a medicated grower pellet in your creep feeder? Are there areas the goats are grazing on very short pasture? Can you clean barns, bedding and feeders even more frequently than you already do?

It's questionable if the current yearlings will reach their full potential depending on how much they have been stunted or if their has been damage to the intestinal lining.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

SalteyLove said:


> It's questionable if the current yearlings will reach their full potential depending on how much they have been stunted or if their has been damage to the intestinal lining.


I hope not. That is the trouble with not doing fecals, only doing the parasiticides...
I don't feed anything close to the high cal, high protein stuff he is, and even my dairy kids are reaching those weights by 3 months...

But it may not be gut lining destruction. I'm still inclined to think low milk production. Mine get so much milk....


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

i feed boer goat developer with ruminsen in it. they get it free choice. what hay should i feed?. the feed that i give them has 17% protein. my adult goats get orchard in the mornings and alfalfa in the evenings. and my kids get pure alfalafa. is that ok what i feed all my goats or should i change something?.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

When you dose the dimethox are you going 21 days from the first dose or the last? It should be from the first so that they are actually getting dosed every 16 days.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

ive read that you start counting from the last day. is that how everyone does it?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Your feeding program seems fine - are the dams getting grain during lactation?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr said:


> i feed boer goat developer with ruminsen in it. they get it free choice.


I am so unfamiliar with this, that I can't even begin to comment about it. Except I don't give rumensin because someone is always lactating in my herd.

I love your hay, I wish I could buy that combination. Your minerals seem just fine. The Valbazen SHOULD take care of your worms. I don't know what to say about the cocci. Find out if one of the dams (that one of the bucklings came off of) is also infested with parasites, and we can sort out if a dam infestation is the cause of something.

I can't say much more except to suggest that culling for more production under your regimen is in order.


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

what is a good grain to give lactating does?


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## HECTOR J GONZALEZ Jr (Jan 5, 2018)

is it the protein that helps the Does produce milk?. i also have a 20% protein tub out for them free choice and the like it.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

As goathiker said, you countr from 1st day to 1st day. Protein is one part of the issue. Other things count as well, like calcium. But from what I see your feed looks good for meat goat herd.
@Jessica84 do you have anything to add? @toth boer goats ?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

After you do the worming and cocci treatments, wait a little while and get another fecal done to see where they are at.

1 cc per 25 lbs may of underdosed them with the Ivomec. I do 1 per 33 lbs orally.

I am different and have to disagree with counting the first day, as day 1.
For me, I count the next day after last treatment is day 1. Only logical, as they were treated that day too. 
Then treat every 21 days for cocci prevention with corid powder.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Wouldn't 1 cc per 25 pounds be stronger than 1 cc per 33 pounds?


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

yes


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yep, sorry about that.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would say if your treatment has not been working, then consider starting the count from the first day. You have to play around with things and figure out what works for your particular farm. What works for me may not work for you. Obviously something isn't working since you have poor growth in kids.


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