# Small Doeling



## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

Hello everyone! I have a question regarding one of my Nigerian Dwarf doelings. Her name is Paisley and she is super tiny compared to her herd mates who are the same age. She was born in June, 2018 so is almost 7 months old and she just hit 20 pounds. She is super happy and seems very healthy but her size (mainly her legs and hooves) concern me. I feel like because her legs are so lanky they are weak and frail, but other than being really clumsy she seems to be okay with them. She eats a lot and is very active. We got her from a registered breeder and since she was our first goat we did not realize how small she was until we got our other goats. Her winter coat is unreal, so fluffy and thick. Nature must know she needs it!

She was a triplet and was bottle fed. We did have a vet come and check her out and she treated her for some minor constipation/bloating and she was fine.

Please let me know if you think there is anything to be concerned about or if I am just paranoid and she is just a small goat!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did you have a fecal done to include coccidia? It is possible she is stunted from an earlier coccidia infestation.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

I would say if a vet checked her out you are okay. Be sure to offer her minerals and such so she can continue to get stronger but she is a doll. I have a Pygmy Runt, she was the smaller of the two twins. She is a short fat sassy thing, shes probably in the 25-30 lb range and is 1.5 years old. So just keep a good eye on her.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

I would also like to note lol - I defer my knowledge to the others, they are more well versed than me.

@ksalvagno - Karen nice use of infestation. lol i felt queasy.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> Did you have a fecal done to include coccidia? It is possible she is stunted from an earlier coccidia infestation.


Yes! The vet had done one prior to giving her a mineral oil to help her digest.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

MadCatX said:


> I would say if a vet checked her out you are okay. Be sure to offer her minerals and such so she can continue to get stronger but she is a doll. I have a Pygmy Runt, she was the smaller of the two twins. She is a short fat sassy thing, shes probably in the 25-30 lb range and is 1.5 years old. So just keep a good eye on her.


Thank you  she is the sweetest thing ever so I just want to make sure I do everything to help her out!


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## SonRise Acres (Apr 24, 2018)

No advice that wasn’t given above, but she is just too cute.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

When you mentioned weak and clumsy .. does she get knocked over or what?

How long ago was the fecal analysis? A heavy parasite load can happen in just a few weeks. 

Are you familiar with FAMACHA score? If not, Google Goat FAMACH and watch a couple videos. What is her FAMACHA score?

Unfortunately if she was stunted by coccidia or other parasites burden, she will likely never reach her full potential as the gut has been damaged. Do you intend to breed her? 

She has a very pretty face. Do you have other photographs? It looks like she has pretty severe fishtail in this photo which means she is very copper deficient.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> When you mentioned weak and clumsy .. does she get knocked over or what?
> 
> How long ago was the fecal analysis? A heavy parasite load can happen in just a few weeks.
> 
> ...


Thank you for commenting! I never knew about FAMACHA or fishtail...

She isn't weak, her legs just look week. And shes clumsy in the sense she tries to jump high or further than she can and tumbles or when playing with the other doelings she will get knocked over and squirm on her back. Test was done in October and she was clear. I bought her to breed but I am not going too.

Her FAMACHA scale was 1 - 2. Is this something you guys check regularly?

I googled fishtail and hers doesnt look like the pictures I saw, but I am not familiar at all!























The last pic is just to compare her size to another goat around the same age as her.

Thanks again!!


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## Megpie (Mar 21, 2018)

I also have two very small nigerians. Its a mom and son so obviously she had no issues getting pregnant. I dont ha


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

She is cute! She looks like a toy you would want to hug! 
On a serious note, because she is so fuzzy, run your hands over her body and spine to make sure she is as plump as she looks to be. Fuzzy hair can hide skinny bodies.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes it's a great idea to check FAMACHA 1 or 2 times per month since parasites are a goats number one enemy, specifically the Barber Pole Worm which causes the anemia indicated by the FAMACHA scoring system. 

You are correct, based on those additional photos I don't think she is showing fishtail.

But it does look like she may be a bit underweight under all that winter fluff! How do her hips, spins, and ribs feel? Anything sharp & pointy?


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

She is a doll and that Nigi next to her is too. Are they getting a free mineral?


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

Goats Rock said:


> She is cute! She looks like a toy you would want to hug!
> On a serious note, because she is so fuzzy, run your hands over her body and spine to make sure she is as plump as she looks to be. Fuzzy hair can hide skinny bodies.


Thanks! Her little personality is every cuter, she is hilarious. She feels plump and not all bones.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

MadCatX said:


> She is a doll and that Nigi next to her is too. Are they getting a free mineral?


Thanks! Yes, they are. I am just not sure how to know if all of them are actually eating it. How do you know if some are and some are not. sigh.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Yes it's a great idea to check FAMACHA 1 or 2 times per month since parasites are a goats number one enemy, specifically the Barber Pole Worm which causes the anemia indicated by the FAMACHA scoring system.
> 
> You are correct, based on those additional photos I don't think she is showing fishtail.
> 
> But it does look like she may be a bit underweight under all that winter fluff! How do her hips, spins, and ribs feel? Anything sharp & pointy?


Good to know, I will check FAMACHA on all of them regularly now - thanks for this!

She feels plump and her bones are not that evident, she is comparable to the other doelings.

On the note of copper deficiency, I was reading about how some black goats turn rusty. I was looking and one of my doelings who is black and white might be getting a little redish (she does not have a fishtail). But our other black one seems perfectly fine. How do you know if one goat is not in-taking as much minerals as the other? I am getting so paranoid now!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

What level of Vitamin D is in your loose mineral? If it is low, then supplementing D-3 may well help.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Don't get paranoid, please. We are just wanting to help you give your doll a great life.

May we ask what brand/formula is your loose mineral. Some are better than others.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Tab Carloni said:


> Thanks! Yes, they are. I am just not sure how to know if all of them are actually eating it. How do you know if some are and some are not. sigh.


I sprinkled it in their food, i also had it on a plate. One thing ive done is put it in my land and let them lap at it if they want to..Clyde will nibble at my hand lol.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The coat changing happens before the fishtail. If you have a fish tail, you are pretty deficient already, not just a bit under. 

If she ever had a coccidia infestation, then her gut could be permanently damaged, and so not getting as much nutrition out of the same food as everyone else does. If that is the case, there is nothing you are doing to cause this, you may just have someone on your hands who won't be quite as thrifty as everyone else will be. Giving her extra bioavailable nutrition can help with that a lot.

You are doing fine. But if we know what exactly they are getting, we can better help


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Hi, and welcome! Nice pictures, and I think your pretty nice little doll might need something, although I cannot tell what. She looks a bit cuddled, right? As if feeling a bit tired, hungry, or chilly? Not that a quick and merry goat would throw in the towel for that! Jump! Yess! Another merry jump - bump!

Am I far from the truth?


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> The coat changing happens before the fishtail. If you have a fish tail, you are pretty deficient already, not just a bit under.
> 
> If she ever had a coccidia infestation, then her gut could be permanently damaged, and so not getting as much nutrition out of the same food as everyone else does. If that is the case, there is nothing you are doing to cause this, you may just have someone on your hands who won't be quite as thrifty as everyone else will be. Giving her extra bioavailable nutrition can help with that a lot.
> 
> You are doing fine. But if we know what exactly they are getting, we can better help


Thanks! Someone in my family thought the bags were garbage and threw them away. Sigh. So I do not have the information. I have them on a feed program from Bio-Ag which includes a loose mineral, loose salt, kelp and something called bio-lac. It was a challenge to find a Canadian retailer so I went with their products since they will deliver.

I have contacted them to get the information on all the products. Once I get the information I will share it!

I will also post a picture of Penelope, who I think has a changing coat.

Thank you everyone! You are all so helpful


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> The coat changing happens before the fishtail. If you have a fish tail, you are pretty deficient already, not just a bit under.
> 
> If she ever had a coccidia infestation, then her gut could be permanently damaged, and so not getting as much nutrition out of the same food as everyone else does. If that is the case, there is nothing you are doing to cause this, you may just have someone on your hands who won't be quite as thrifty as everyone else will be. Giving her extra bioavailable nutrition can help with that a lot.
> 
> You are doing fine. But if we know what exactly they are getting, we can better help


Here is the mineral information:









I was told that for my 6 goats (one is pregnant) to put out 1 1/2 cup of the mineral, 1/2 cup of the bio-ag salt, 1/2 cup of kelp. Per day.

They also get 1/4 each of grain a day (oats, barley and black sunflower seed mix) and lots of second cut alfalfa hay.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Tab Carloni said:


> Here is the mineral information:


OK, thanks! The Guaranteed Analysis shows VERY nice levels, except the Calcium, Copper, and zinc seem low, and I don't see the level of selenium at all.

Kelp and Alfalfa are both very high in Calcium. So I don't think that is a problem for you.

The ingredient list would help us even more, because a high level of an ingredient that is not very absorbable isn't really a high level.

So if you ever get the ingredient list and can post it, that will give us even more info.

ZinPro corporation does operate in Canada. I can find the representatives for Canada if you'd like, and they can help you find where you can buy their products. Very quality ingredients that can help you up your copper and zinc levels.

All this to say, well done. Very well done.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> OK, thanks! The Guaranteed Analysis shows VERY nice levels, except the Calcium, Copper, and zinc seem low, and I don't see the level of selenium at all.
> 
> Kelp and Alfalfa are both very high in Calcium. So I don't think that is a problem for you.
> 
> ...


Thank you! For whatever reason the selenium level is under the title stating 11.5 mg/kg. Thanks for letting me know about ZinPro I found their contact reps on their website. I have so much of this Bio-Ag stuff still but once I need to replenish I will contact ZinPro and get some info!!

I am also on well water which I heard can affect the copper levels. Is there anything I can add to the mineral or food that would add additional copper and zinc?

Here is the ingredient list:









Thank you so much!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Tab Carloni said:


> For whatever reason the selenium level is under the title stating 11.5 mg/kg.


Oh, you know, I just didn't bother reading there. I went directly to the "list" form. Someone else from Canada corrected me on that very same thing. Duh. Sorry.

Yes, I see, looking at the ingredients, that there can be some improvement. A lot of sulphates in there, which CAN inhibit copper absorption. I can recommend this product... 4-Plex C... for you to add to your current offering (not asking you to throw away a decent amount of a VERY decent mineral, just tweak it a bit) Here is a pdf for it
http://www.goatworld.com/store/pdf/zinpro4plexc.pdf
You can buy as little as a single pound from this person while you sort everything else out. I have no doubt that you can with detective work find it cheaper somewhere, but this will get you started. You'll have to call or email to make Canada shipping arrangements.
http://www.goatworld.com/store/

So, I think you are doing great, and your herd is very lucky to be with you.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

If there is any way to switch to a rain water system, Even for part of the time, that can eliminate many problems.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Oh, you know, I just didn't bother reading there. I went directly to the "list" form. Someone else from Canada corrected me on that very same thing. Duh. Sorry.
> 
> Yes, I see, looking at the ingredients, that there can be some improvement. A lot of sulphates in there, which CAN inhibit copper absorption. I can recommend this product... 4-Plex C... for you to add to your current offering (not asking you to throw away a decent amount of decent mineral, just tweak it a bit) Here is a pdf for it
> http://www.goatworld.com/store/pdf/zinpro4plexc.pdf
> ...


I will definitely go on a hunt to find this product. Thank you so much for your help, time and kind words!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Tab Carloni said:


> I will definitely go on a hunt to find this product. Thank you so much for your help, time and kind words!!


You are welcome, but it is easy to help someone already doing it right.

I would still think about giving a human D-3 supplement to your little girl, I think her skeleton will continue to improve. Here in the States we can buy a soft gel that is bioavailable and easy to push down the throat. Some will open the casing and squirt the oily inside onto something. I just poke it down. The caplet and tablet form, I think, are harder to get down and not as available.

Good luck.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> You are welcome, but it is easy to help someone already doing it right.
> 
> I would still think about giving a human D-3 supplement to your little girl, I think her skeleton will continue to improve. Here in the States we can buy a soft gel that is bioavailable and easy to push down the throat. Some will open the casing and squirt the oily inside onto something. I just poke it down. The caplet and tablet form, I think, are harder to get down and not as available.
> 
> Good luck.


I'm sure I can find that easily! Would you recommend one soft gel, everyday?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

That would depend upon the i.u. level of the soft gel. I don't know what levels you have there? Can you get 100 iu? If you can get that low, I'd say yes, every day. But some I've found have been really high, 5-6,000 iu. That is way too high for every day.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> That would depend upon the i.u. level of the soft gel. I don't know what levels you have there? Can you get 100 iu? If you can get that low, I'd say yes, every day. But some I've found have been really high, 5-6,000 iu. That is way too high for every day.


I will see what I can find. Thanks again!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The lowest I am able to easily find is 400. I don't give that every day either.
What you want for her is a little bit extra, often. You don't really want a massive dose every once in a while. And you certainly don't want a massive dose daily.

Vitamin D is one of the few vitamins that will accumulate in the body and eventually cause harm. Your mineral has a good level of D (not sure what form) and all your other animals seem fine in this way. This is why I'm thinking a little bit extra, often, will help, but too much at once can harm. So, that's my thinking, anyway.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Is it possible to dilute the vitamin in usual food oil, like rapeseed oil? To make it easier to dose it?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

There is a different form, a tablet, that can be split with a pill splitter. As for diluting the oil inside the soft gel, that math is beyond me, and defeats the joy and ease of sliding a single soft gel down.

I'll just wait and find out what they can buy. They are on a good mineral with a good amount of D already, so the girl is not in present danger.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

And we do not want her to get too much neither! Here, vitamin D for small children is sold in little flasks with oil, tastes nothing, very nice.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Trollmor said:


> Here, vitamin D for small children is sold in little flasks with oil


Without a lot of sun in the Winter, Vitamin D would be a real issue for Scandinavian children!


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> There is a different form, a tablet, that can be split with a pill splitter. As for diluting the oil inside the soft gel, that math is beyond me, and defeats the joy and ease of sliding a single soft gel down.
> 
> I'll just wait and find out what they can buy. They are on a good mineral with a good amount of D already, so the girl is not in present danger.


I have not had a chance to go out and find the D3 as we had a massive snow storm here. I cannot locate any of the 4-Plex-C you recommended. Apparently the government stopped allowing alot of products to be sold (from what feed stores have been telling me). I was recommended this: https://www.pestellminerals.com/product/selenium-gold-120-trace-mineralized-salt-blocks/ but I am not sure if it will be too much with what I am already proving them...


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

mariarose said:


> Without a lot of sun in the Winter, Vitamin D would be a real issue for Scandinavian children!


Yes, and for grown-ups like me also!  That is why I know that kind.


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