# We definitely have a COPPERHEAD Problem!



## Wildcat (Jul 3, 2019)

So...last Saturday (7/27) our 8 month old Billy "Brute" came flying back into the barn and was limping. Wouldn't let me touch him, so I went up to the house to get my husband and it was dinner time. 30 minutes later we went down to the barn to check on him and his leg was swollen to the shoulder and he couldn't lay down or put weight on it. After careful inspection, my husband and son found little "scratch marks" they concluded were a snake bite. We called the vet and got appropriate meds and Brute rebounded just fine with tons of Benadryl and 1 shot of a fast acting steroid. Last night (8/2) we went down to feed the goats and Petey didn't come to the feeder like he should and Jim noticed he was in the same shape only worse! His chest had swollen! So we gave him the same injection of steroids and Benadryl and at 3:30 am this morning he is resting quietly and eating and drinking, but of course still swollen. So we obviously have a copperhead issue where we hadn't known we had one--due to the goats being fenced in a brushy area we never really went into per se (except when we fenced it). Haven't seen a lot of copperheads in prior years, but this one has been somewhat bad--we've killed 2 near our house here in NE Kentucky). So I have a few questions:

#1.) We haven't put collars of bells on our goats because we were afraid of them getting caught on something and not being able to get loose. Would bells help warn snakes away??? (NOTE: totally new to goats and we have 7 Billy's from newly weaned to 8 months old. So they can be a little rough and tumble, but thus far not to excess because we have no females on the property. And yes, we are in the process of selling them off so we can start a herd.)

#2.) For those of you living in snake prone areas, besides clearing downfall and debris, what can we do? I mean we fenced (and we intending to fence) brushy areas behind our house and now I worry about the goats! --and yes, we have plans to go in and clear any debris that may be there, BUT, it seems like things are hanging out in the rose and berry bushes they love to eat!

#3.) now that Brute and Petey have been bitten, what if they get bit again? Will they have some immunity or be more prone to die?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You are right about this being a copperhead year. I've had 3 goats snakebit this year when I've never had it happen to a goat before. Don't be overly frightened about the chest... the swelling naturally moves toward the heart with the blood flow.

No, They don't get an immunity to the venom... and bells don't scare copperheads, because while they'd rather you walk away, they aren't inclined to scurry off themselves. They hunker down and wait. Large waterfowl and pigs handle snakes just fine. Will your fence contain either of those animals? If not, I'd be diligent and keep your remedies to hand.

I have Muscovy Ducks, and I'm glad I do. There are no snakes around my house. My son lives close on the property but on in my house and last week in one day he shot 4 large copperheads. Larger than my ducks could've handled, but pigs would've slurped them up like spaghetti noodles. The larger geese probably also would have been fine.

If you are a good shot, you can hunt them. You want thick boots that go well up your leg, and you want a partner, and a hoe or rake to lift things and turn things over. And to pin them down when you shoot.

There's a 90 lb rule to most of our poisonous snakes, which compared to other snakes of the world, aren't all that poisonous.

UNLESS you are allergic to bee and wasp stings, if you weigh over 90 lbs, a wet bite will only make you quite ill, not dead. And most bites will be dry or partially dry bites. So don't panic, which raises your heart rate, and don't try to suck out the venom. That never works except on old Daniel Boone shows with Fess Parker.

If you ARE allergic then this is a different story. The allergic reaction to even the amount of venom in a dry bite can kill you.

So, good luck. And you are right. This is a copperhead year.

OH!!! One final thought. If you have any Black Rat Snakes, DON'T KILL THEM! They'll eat Copperheads, and vermin such as mice, rats, baby raccoons and squirrels. They are the good guys.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

poor boys, I dont think they will be more prone to issues later but I dont know much about copperheads, I deal with rattlers here


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Lol. Copperheads are maily amphibian and fish eaters. Not many frogs in your part of the States, I imagine!

We have Timber Rattlers here, They are the tamest rattlesnakes in the world I think. I walked around one the other day. It coiled up and rattled until it saw that I saw it, then it just waited for me to go away like I was supposed to.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Ugh! I feel your pain. Not with bites but with the dumb snakes. In the last four days we have had two ch. ours are young though with a tinny bit of a yellow tail still. So we have a nest somewhere..... but where. :/. But even with fence they will slither through... we have 1/4 inch hardware cloth around our rabbits. The other day one was stuck comin out of it and had hit the hot wire and got fried. Same size and tail as the one under the lean to farther away. So we guess from the same nest.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Much as our area is kinda crappy, weather wise and gloomy in winter, we don't have any poisonous snakes. A few years ago, some whack job tried to reintroduce massaga rattlesnakes. (1700's they were indigenous to the area along the river, the early settlers wiped them out). But, the current folks don't care for the massaga snakes and for some reason, they are all gone! (At least around this area). 

How scary to have to worry about snake bites! (Yes, I am a wimp!)


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How awful, hope you find a solution.

Poor goats, ouch, hope they will be OK.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

14 years here and never had a goat bit by snakes and this year we had two. And they are saying August and September will be bad with baby copperheads hatching. Im ready with my snake kit. ( Penicillin, Benadryl and Dex) ( have epi too if we need it. )


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

hmm. happybleats is only about 2 hr 45 m from me. I saw (and killed!) a tiny little copperhead under the water trough last week. I do know babies are more dangerous than adults. I dont have many snakes near me, but im definitley going to get a snake bite kit ready.I have alot of bull snakes, but those aint poisonous, and i saw a HUGE chicken snake 2 days ago in the barn that i had to move out to the pasture because its eating my eggs! Here our poisonous snakes are Copper Heads, Cotton mouths, rattlesnakes (never seen one on my property knock on wood), and coral snakes (also never seen)


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I think my snake kit would be a pistol and ammo! The famous SSS's ! Shoot, shovel and shut up! 

You all be safe in the snake country!


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## CCCSAW (Jul 11, 2019)

Guinea fowl like to chase snakes.... is just a thought. I don't know if they do much for copperheads but rattlers don't like their noise.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

It's strange...it must just be quite a year for snakes in general. I have lived in my house for 6 years. Saw one snake shortly after moving in. Not a single snake of any kind again until this year. I have seen maybe 6. None venomous, but it still seems odd to me. We have copperheads, rattlesnakes, cottonmouth, coral snakes...I live in south Texas. I have a friend that lives fairly close and he keeps finding coral snakes in his yard. It is a strange year!


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

I've read about bellling goats but snakes are supposed to be deaf … so if that's true, how would they hear a bell ??? 

camooweal


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

camooweal said:


> but snakes are supposed to be deaf &#8230;


Snakes do have ears, and can hear. This page does a nice job of explaining.
https://www.thesprucepets.com/are-snakes-bothered-by-loud-noises-1239469


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## Wildcat (Jul 3, 2019)

CCCSAW said:


> Guinea fowl like to chase snakes.... is just a thought. I don't know if they do much for copperheads but rattlers don't like their noise.


Thinking of getting Guineas, but we haven't had the time to set up for them...


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## Wildcat (Jul 3, 2019)

happybleats said:


> 14 years here and never had a goat bit by snakes and this year we had two. And they are saying August and September will be bad with baby copperheads hatching. Im ready with my snake kit. ( Penicillin, Benadryl and Dex) ( have epi too if we need it. )


Well, that STINKS! Thanks for the warning though... I'll be on watch!


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## Wildcat (Jul 3, 2019)

mariarose said:


> You are right about this being a copperhead year. I've had 3 goats snakebit this year when I've never had it happen to a goat before. Don't be overly frightened about the chest... the swelling naturally moves toward the heart with the blood flow.
> 
> THANK YOU for this! His chest is still really swollen today...
> 
> ...


See red above  No, we don't kill the good ones. We do have black, and black rat and my husband has even seen a King snake as well. Thank you for ALL the info!!!! It was so very helpful!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Wildcat said:


> Thinking of getting Guineas, but we haven't had the time to set up for them...


I have Muscovies that don't require much keeping, if you'd be interested.


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## Wildcat (Jul 3, 2019)

First, I am so sorry I didn't get back out here. We were having computer problems and I didn't think this actually posted so I'm VERY grateful it did. Thank you all for the reassurance that this is an oddity. As I am afraid of snakes, this was all around scary for me.

Petey is very slowly on the mend, but hasn't left the barn. He tried for a few bits to be himself, but then went back into his sick pen and laid up. I don't think it helped the younger billy's were carrying on and scuffling about. 

My biggest question is about the penicillin. Is that necessary if they are showing no signs of infection? Brute took one shot of the steroid and improved quickly. It's been a week and ZERO signs of anything amiss. I never gave him the antibiotic. I don't like to give those unless there is a real need. Petey's swelling is going down slowly, but otherwise he's eating and drinking and there is no signs of infection.

All the needles just suck. Petey is taking it reasonably well, but tomorrow starts the step down on the Dex and that's several more days of needles.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

A couple of shots of Banamine would help that swelling.
Oral Benadryl will also help.
Edit... I see you've mentioned Dex. Sorry. Nevermind.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't care for antibiotics, but the immune system IS under attack because this is basically a huge onslaught for them. A suppressed immune system will easily allow a secondary infection to start.

I don't give them, until I see an infection, but I do understand why someone would want to. Hugs. I can't help you make this decision. Hugs again.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

mariarose do ducks in a pond next to the area help with snakes?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@spidy1 Yes. Copperheads like to hang out in water.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

A terrific youtube search on copperheads, particularly babies.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=copperhead+snake+baby


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

THIS video is a great comparison of what people might see


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

"Snakes do have ears, and can hear. This page does a nice job of explaining.
https://www.thesprucepets.com/are-snakes-bothered-by-loud-noises-1239469

Thank you, mariarose!

camooweal


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Out of curiosity - how do we know these are copperhead bites versus any other snake species?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

SalteyLove said:


> Out of curiosity - how do we know these are copperhead bites versus any other snake species?


That's a great question. Answering for my posts, I'm going by the fact that copperheads are by FAR the most numerous venomous snakes in my area, and by the relatively weak venom. Cottonmouths are much more aggressive and they are rare enough that the officials insist they aren't here. I do see Timber Rattlers, they are large and yes, they are poisonous, but they are so very calm and practically just lay there and DARE anyone to bother them. Since they insist on getting my attention by rattling, it's very difficult for me to step on one by accident.

So, that's how I know mine have been copperheads. I've been bitten plenty of times by nonvenomous snakes, because I've always been fascinated by snakes, but as a child I wasn't very respectful of them. I've gotten infections from the bites, but not the swelling and dangerous illness that comes along with a venomous bite.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Hmmm okay I have no snake bite knowledge but just know how fast a cat bite can swell up and become very serious infection while not poisonous so I was wondering what a non-venomous versus venomous snake bite was going to look like on a goat.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Well, cats have filthy mouths...

I've never seen a snakebite on one of my goats until this year. This year seems truly different in a lot of ways.

A venomous snake bite starts swelling within moments and has an intense burning sensation that causes distress long after the mere bite would. The swelling is at the initial wound first and travels toward the heart along with the normal bloodflow. Non venomous snakebites don't seem to act in that manner, nothing seems to travel toward the heart causing grotesque swelling at the chest. The venomous bite, if not a dry bite, will usually cause a rotting away of the skin and flesh at the wound, at least slightly. Nonvenomous bites don't seem to cause that either.

Some water snakes have acted aggressively toward us, and since they are much faster in the water than we are have been quite frightening at times. But nonvenomous land snakes would rather scurry away than lay in wait. Unless the goats are truly careless, they aren't likely to trap a garter snake enough to cause a bite. Copperheads won't scurry, they want us to leave, but will not willingly leave themselves, so can be easily trodden upon.

Some people here have experience with much more aggressive rattlesnakes. Since I don't, I don't want to talk about how they behave. The ones we have, I'd have to go out of my way to experience a bite from them. Since I don't like going out of my way for anyone, I never expect that to happen.

Hope that helps...


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## Wildcat (Jul 3, 2019)

mariarose said:


> A couple of shots of Banamine would help that swelling.
> Oral Benadryl will also help.
> Edit... I see you've mentioned Dex. Sorry. Nevermind.


We are doing Benadryl 3 times a day in addition to the Dex. Petey ctually sucks it down like a baby bottle from the syringe. Cute as can be. We are starting the stepdown process today on the Dex ----aaaaand, I had to come in a start on the bookwork, but my husband said Petey jogged to join the herd outside so I think he's turned his corner


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## Wildcat (Jul 3, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Hmmm okay I have no snake bite knowledge but just know how fast a cat bite can swell up and become very serious infection while not poisonous so I was wondering what a non-venomous versus venomous snake bite was going to look like on a goat.


On Brute it looked like 2 faint scratches fang distance apart. My oldest son loves snakes so that was his assessment. Now Petey, we have never found the spot where he got bit, although we did see a few VERY small blood smears on his leg. According to the research I did (because I must admit to being doubtful that it was a snake without proof. We also have every type of hornet and cow killer's (ants?). I found a description that mentions the swelling from a snake bite is immediate and you can watch it swell (which we could see!!!! On both goats the swelling was hard and fast and went from hock to shoulder on Brute and on Petey it included a HUGE amount of swelling on his chest. Within 30 minutes on Brute--because I saw him run into the barn, but couldn't figure out how he got hurt. He wouldn't let me touch him and I had to get my husband. Within those 30 minutes his leg swelled 3 times the size and his shoulder as well. Couldn't put weight on his leg. With Petey, our estimate was an hour maybe a little more before we found him hiding under one of the benches in the barn and the initial picture I posted on this thread was the way we found him. That same post I found on the internet mentioned that the swelling was so intense, that you may not see the bite as it swells shut and hence very little bleeding. We figured Petey licked it off...or most of it. We found no signs of infection in either goat. They never stopped eating, drinking, pooping and peeing and we checked on them virtually every hour throughout the day...

_"You may or may not see the actual bite, they will swell shut quickly, often no blood will be seen. You will notice extreme pain in the general area and swelling......you can WATCH it swell." Original Post from a site called: backyardherds.com_


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## Wildcat (Jul 3, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Out of curiosity - how do we know these are copperhead bites versus any other snake species?


I didn't see this question...

So, in fairness, since we have both rattlesnakes (timber and black) and copperheads we made the assumption based on the fact that a rattlesnake bite would have killed them (that is according to my son. He's the snake "expert".) It's also based on the fact that we've killed 2 copperheads in that past 2 weeks. One near our garage and one near our mailbox. In the 4 years that we've lived here we've only killed 2 poisonous snakes, both copperheads (one near the garage and one out in the woods when we were working on a food plot in March.)

That, and the vet felt the same based on the description we gave of the incident and the pictures (I met her at the clinic during emergency hours because it was SO hot she decided it would be too traumatic to take Brute to her that day).

Excellent questions!!! I'm glad this info is getting out for others. I was distraught and caught off guard and the internet, as well as a knowledgeable kid and a PHENOMINAL vet who trusted us with the Dex and Penicilin, detailed instructions, etc. Without all these puzzle pieces coming together, Brute at least may have died. I can say with certainty, God has been with us seeing us through! We've had a rough go for our first try at having goats!


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## Wildcat (Jul 3, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Lol. Copperheads are maily amphibian and fish eaters. Not many frogs in your part of the States, I imagine!
> 
> We have Timber Rattlers here, They are the tamest rattlesnakes in the world I think. I walked around one the other day. It coiled up and rattled until it saw that I saw it, then it just waited for me to go away like I was supposed to.


We have more frogs than I can deal with, probably, hence the copperheads!


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