# New and so many questions



## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Hi everyone. I am new to goats and am loving it! We purchased 6 doelings,1 buckling and 2 doe kids. We are in love! I do however have a few questions. 

1. They are all together and have been since birth. I was told they won't be old enough to breed until fall. When should I separate them? They will be a year in the beginning of July. I was told. 

2. A few of them seem to have big bellies. Is this normal or is there something I need to do or be concerned with. 

3. One of the doe kids. Froze her foot off at birth and so we brought her home to spoil. I don't want her to ever be bred but I don't want to separate her from her family. Is there a way to prevent her from becoming pregnant? 


I am sure I will have a million more questions since we are only 2 weeks into goat ownership lol. Thank you in advance for any advice  


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Depending on what breed he is, your buckling will be capable of breeding by 5 months of age - if not sooner. The big bellies could be due to good rumen function, pregnancy (depending on how long you've had them and how old your buckling is), or possibly worms. Gather up some berries from 4 or 5 animals and have a group fecal done - include coccidia to be safe - to rule out worms.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Ok and what about the does? 


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Welcome aboard glad to have you!
What kind do you have?
Does the buckling have a wether buddy you can put him with?
Can you post a pic of the bellies? Some goats have honkin rumens.
The only way to keep your doe from being bred is to keep her a million miles away from any buck or have her fixed.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Sorry - I hit 'submit' too soon.


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## 4seasonsfarm (Jan 22, 2014)

orchid said:


> Hi everyone. I am new to goats and am loving it! We purchased 6 doelings,1 buckling and 2 doe kids. We are in love! I do however have a few questions.
> 
> 1. They are all together and have been since birth. I was told they won't be old enough to breed until fall. When should I separate them? They will be a year in the beginning of July. I was told.
> 
> ...


They are plenty old enough to be bred I they are close to a year. They could already be bred. I would go ahead and separate em if it isn't to late already. I don't know of anyway to keep a goat doe from getting preggo unless you do separation. Also welcome to the world o goats!!! it's fun!!!

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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I would imagine goats can be spayed, but I don't know if it would require full anesthesia or if the vet can do it with a spinal block and go in vaginally like they do with heifers.


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## FullMoonFarm-Ky (Jan 15, 2014)

What are you feeding and how much? Their big bellies could be a hay gut. 


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

I don't have anyone else I can put him with so I will have to look into finding him a friend. They get hay in a feeder, oats once a day, mineral and water whenever they want and the 2 babies get milk replacer 2 times a day ( I am weaning them to once a day ). The woman I bought them from has lots of goats so I am just going in what she told me. I have read people talking about giving. Their goats baking soda, what is that about? Should I be doing that? 


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Definitely look into getting a buddy and get them separated. Your buckling CAN and will breed by 5 months and he's there already. How old are the bottle babies? 

Baking soda helps with the rumen in preventing bloat which is, simply put, excess gas. You don't really need to leave it out all the time.

The only way to keep the one doe from getting bred is to make absolutely certain she never has access to a buck. It doesn't take long either. We had one of our nigerians get in with the boer buck we were using ONE day only. She delivered kids 5 months later! (luckily, it worked out with no issues) Spaying is hard on them, but that is the only way to positive if you have a buck on the place.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

So they are 8 or 9 month old now could they be pregnant already ? Are they too young to be pregnant ? I haven't seen any evidence of anything wouldn't I notice ? I was told they are seasonal breeders and so I didn't have to worry about it  the buckling isn't very big yet. I was also told they have to be 75 percent of their full grown weight before they will even be ready to breed. 


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

They can breed at a young age. I have a couple of nigerians that were bred at 5 months because they got in with the buck where their mama was. (the Rita's are horrible at getting out and into things) They SHOULD be 75% of full grown size before you breed them, but they can get bred before that.


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## anawhitfield (Jun 9, 2013)

We had a "spoiled" little girl one year and didn't want her to be bred because she was a nigerian dwarf and we only had full-size bucks. So we wanted to make sure she never gets pregnant. Our vet (who is EXCELLENT and very knowledgeable) said he would spay her but it would cost about $300 (in Georgia)


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## LoriH (Jan 12, 2014)

kccjer said:


> Baking soda helps with the rumen in preventing bloat which is, simply put, excess gas. You don't really need to leave it out all the time.


If you don't leave it out all the time how much and how often??


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

When they get bloated and I have no clue how much.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I don't leave baking soda out. I only use if needed. Males should definitely not have it out free choice because it can deactivate ammonium chloride.


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

What breed are your goats? Do you have any pics?:welcome:


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

They are boer goats. Here are some pictures from this morning. They are from my phone.


















the second picture is Norman the buckling. The last one is one of the girls with with bigger belly. There are 2 bigger than that.

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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

Have they started an udder yet?


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Uhhh ...no? How does one check that? I wasn't checking because I was told there is no way they would be pregnant . Sorry I am still very new to this. 


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

With boers, the bucks can and will breed at 3 months... I would separate now, but it may be too late. Were they together before you bought them? If not, you may have a chance if they haven't come into heat yet. They cycle every 18- 21 days. Yes, they are seasonal, but that doesn't mean they won't still breed off season. Especially if it is still cold where you are. My neighbor just put his buck in with his boer herd and they are breeding like crazy...

As for the udder, keep a watch on the size and shape. If you see it start to enlarge, you may be within 4-6 weeks of kidding...Then again, some develop earlier or later. 

You can take blood samples and check to see if they are bred, I believe they need to be at least 30 days bred, maybe a bit more.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

They have always been together from what I was told. So I should probably watch to see if anyone looks like they are doing something. Is there any other way to tell other than a blood test? Or just wait and see. How do you know if they are in heat? Sorry for the stupid questions. 


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

As far as being bred, watch for udder development. As pregnancy progresses, their udders will get bigger. The vulva will also start to relax until the protuberance on the end of the vulva is pointed down towards the ground. As they get closer to kidding, the vulva area will become loose and floppy.

As far telling if they are in heat, the vulva will become a darker color, will probably be wet and shiny looking due to discharge, they will flag more, and some become very vocal. They usually squat like they are going to urinate more often, but don't actually urinate or just pass a little bit. 

They are not stupid questions - if you don't know what to look for they only way you're going to find out is to ask. We've all been there at one time or another. :wink: :smile:


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Flag? And thank you  


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Oh, I'm sorry. Flagging is wagging their tails. It's a means of flirting with the buck.


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## dchemphill1 (Jul 25, 2013)

There bellies don't look abnormally large. 


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Ok so here are some better pictures of my two girls that have the bigger bellies as well as a rear view. Is this just normal goat chubbiness ? I thought maybe they needed to be wormed. I made an appointment to take everyone to the vet to be checked over and tested for everything and they are going to so ultrasounds on everyone to make sure we are not going to have any surprises. In the meantime I am separating the buckling. Thank you all for all the advice 


























I see no udder development so I am hoping we are ok.

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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I don't think you are ok at all. The brown doe in the 2nd picture definitely looks bred to me, and I would be willing to bet the white doe in the last picture is also bred.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Crap. How do I know for sure? Or do I have to wait for the ultrasound to tell ? 


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

We wanted babies I just wanted to wait until they were older and bigger  and I am a little upset that I was given bad information  


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

You can draw blood and send it to WADDL. This is their website and phone number.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/

I have trouble judging size from pictures, but it looks like your does are plenty big enough to handle kidding. If you feed grain, be careful how much you feed in the last month to month and a half as it can cause bigger kids. Talk to your vet and have a plan in place in case there are problems, and do your research on kids and kidding. I'm betting it will be ok.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

How do I know how much longer I have? 


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Also is the place to send blood in Canada? Or can I send blood from Canada ? 


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I didn't realize you were in Canada, and I don't know. All I can suggest is that you call them and ask. If the telephone call would be prohibitive, let me know and I will call them for you since I'm in the States.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Thanks I will try and call them tomorrow and see. I do have them all scheduled for ultrasounds in 2 weeks 


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Ugh this is so frustrating.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

orchid said:


> How do I know how much longer I have?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


There is a series of things that happens as a goat progresses in her pregnancy. First thing is relaxation of the vulva area(1 to 2 1/2 months), 2nd thing is increased size - usually(2 to 3 months), 3rd thing is udder development(3 to 3 1/2 months), 4th thing is she will start to dilate and her vulva area will become loose and floppy(4 months), 5th thing is she will drop her kids (instead of carrying her kids high, they will literally drop lower in her body and when you look at her from the back, she will take on an egg shape as opposed to a rounded shape. When the kids drop, she will also usually become more hollowed out in front of her hip bones). Once the kids drop kidding can take place anywhere from 12 hours to several days, depending on the doe. Sure signs of kidding are isolating, pawing like she is trying to dig to China, thick opaque white or amber discharge, she will usually go off feed, but not always, she may or may not 'talk' to her tummy(kids), she may or may not become more vocal - I've got does that start hollering the moment they go into labor and don't quit til the kids hit the ground. Bear in mind that the time all of these things are estimates based on my particular does, but they should give you an idea of when to look for what.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Thank you for all the information .so what makes you think they are pregnant. ( just because I have no idea how you can tell from looking lol ) 


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Try not to get frustrated because that just throws you off, stresses you out, interferes with your judgement, and gets in the way of being able to see clearly what your girls are doing.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Last year we hit our 7 year wet period - lots of rain and cool temperatures. I put the buck in with my does in May for October kids. I irrigate 300+ acres on our family farm and I am gone all day, every day 7 days a week so I can't keep tabs on breeding, but long about August I noticed that a couple of girls that should have been long bred were playing footsies with the buck. I got on here and looked up the pooch test. I then spent a whole lot of time examining my girls pooches after I fed and they were lined up at the feeders eating. I noticed that their vulva's were in various stages of relaxing and, as time went on and I continued monitoring them, I could track it. Long about November, I moved the buck to another pen and started checking their pooches. Well, lo and behold, the first bunch started popping Dec 27th, every girl in that pen kidded, and around the middle of December/first of January, the vulva's of the girls in the 2nd bunch started relaxing, too. The 2nd bunch is due to kid the end of this month, and the vast majority of them are already dilating.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

I have looked at the before and after pictures someone has on here but they all look the same to me 


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

That will be the case until you get some experience under your belt and learn what to look for. You have to cut yourself some slack and realize it takes time to learn - regardless of what it is you're trying to learn. If you don't, you are going to drive yourself nuts, you are going to miss things, and you won't be able to do what you need to do when you need to do it. I will be shuffling goats around in the pens tomorrow, and I will try - no promises, but I will try - to get some pictures of my replacement doelings and bred does to show you what I'm talking about. The biggest problem is going to be if the batteries in my digital camera are dead because I don't have any more to replace them with.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Thanks  you are very sweet and I appreciate all the help  


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

No, Orchid, I am not sweet - trust me on this! But I've been in your shoes and I completely understand about the confusion, lack of experience and knowledge, and wanting to do right by your animals. If I can help with that, I am absolutely willing to do it!


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## LoriH (Jan 12, 2014)

Orchid I had to fess up and tell you I am in the similar situation and the before and after pics look the same to me too. 

I am following this thread with great interest but I had to assure you that you are NOT alone. I kinda gather everyone was where we are at some point .... look at it as a journey. Try not to ask "are we there yet" just enjoy the ride :grin:


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Lol it is definitely a journey. Don't get me wrong babies aren't the worst thing in the world I am just a planner and wanted to have everything written down and know when and who. I guess someone is trying to teach me to go with the flow haha. 

Is it still safe to worm and give vaccinations if they are pregnant ? 


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## Bertnut2 (Feb 9, 2014)

MsScamp said:


> No, Orchid, I am not sweet - trust me on this! But I've been in your shoes and I completely understand about the confusion, lack of experience and knowledge, and wanting to do right by your animals. If I can help with that, I am absolutely willing to do it!


MsScamp- I love all of your posts. They make me laugh all the time. You don't sugar coat for sure, but you help all the time and I love the way you are.

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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Yes, you can and should give CD/t boosters to everyone unless they have had them in the last 12 months. I try to give mine with about 30 days left before they kid so kids have some in them when born... Since you aren't sure of dates, you can give now or wait till after ultrasound to see if they can estimate due dates.

Worm with a wormer safe for pregnant does. NOT Valbazen. It causes abortions. It is safe to use when not pregnant. I use Prohibit, not sure if you can use Ivermectin or not. I would also get a bottle of Bose while at the vet if you are in a selenium deficient area and give everyone a dose of that to prevent weak kids. Give to the buck as well.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

Ok sorry to be stupid what is cd/t? Are you thinking she is pregnant too? 


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

I am not good at judging pooch pics, so you will have to go with others or the ultrasound on that. CD/t is overeating and tetanus vaccination. Babies need it at 1 and 2 months. Then everyone needs it once yearly. To prevent enterotoxemia and tetanus.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Bear with me, Orchid. I have not forgotten you! The weather turned nice so I'm cleaning up pens, alleys, and getting ready to sell weaning bucks and pick up a new buckling. I'm hoping I can get out there tomorrow to get the pictures.


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## orchid (Apr 2, 2014)

No worries  I appreciate all the help. It has been warm and nice here too. Crazy how much work pops up when the weather gets nice lol 


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Tell me about it! :laugh:


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Ok, Orchid, I've got pictures. Bear in mind I'm not a photographer, and my does apparently take exception to having pictures taken their lady parts, as well. I had no idea how much me kneeling behind them would flip them out! :whatgoat: The first picture is of 2 3 month old doelings. The next 2 pictures are of bred does due to kid the end of April. See how the small protuberance at the end of the vulva are in different positions?


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