# First kid experience last night... and I'm lost



## MrSchaeferPants (Dec 31, 2013)

So, we had a baby last night, 11:30, ice storm, power went out. It was odd, one of the goats were mouthy last night, usually they settle down by the evening. So I kept checking on them, and got to their goat shack, they'd just stare at me like "what's up?"

So come 11:30 last night, I get there, and what I thought was one of the younger kids being mouthy, ended up being one of my does, I was confused at first, thought she was sick, like a sort of dry heaving, ending with her bleat. So I waited to see her throw up, but nothing came out. Well a few minutes of watching her, she decided to get up and turn to the side, and it took me a second to understand what I saw behind her, then it hit me, that was a hoof!

Now, we don't know much about these goats, only had them roughly 2 months. We assumed the does were pregnant, but we, and the previous owners just kind of said 'they probably are' but it would be quite some time from now. Wasn't ready for kids yet. Anyhoo, so my train of thought was it'll happen naturally, no problems. The wife was kinda flipping out a bit, and we also had my sister-in-law, and her friend in town that night. So 4 of us were out there, watching this birth.

Mistake number one, we all tried to peer into the goat house, and I Guess it made her uneasy, so she up and left, and she ended up having the kid outside a few steps from the goat house. Immediately after, she just up and left like 'my works done here, see ya later' So the wife got a towel, started cleaning up the newborn. After she was cleaned up, and dried off a bit, we thought what to do now? So we left her in there, nice thick bedding. 28 degrees outside.

Came back every 20-30 minutes, all 8 of the goats were in there, my impression was keeping the kid warm, as she was tucked as far back from the opening as possible, we figured ok, alls well. But in those few checks last night, I never saw her nurse.

This morning, checked on her, she's fine, moving around the best she could, bleating away. Continued to check on her, momma was out eating with the rest of the goats, baby was in the goat house. Well all of today I've not once seen her nurse, momma is out foraging all day. So then I start to freak a bit, went out, got some 'formula' (still learning here), bottle thing. Baby doesn't wanna mess with it, however on all my checks, she kinda facebutts my legs like she's looking to eat. So I gave up, let it be for a while, come back later, mommas away, baby is just kinda hanging out. So I round up momma, get her in the goat house, hoping things would just sorta happen. Well it doesn't, momma could SEEM to care less, baby tried to feed, but she was all over the place, couldn't find the utter, even though I'd periodically pick her up and place her right there. Momma leaves, tried with the formula again, she doesn't latch on, but I do end up getting a bit in her open mouth.

Come back later, she's just laying on the floor, not very responsive at all. I think she's tuckered out, lots happend in the last 16 hours she's been alive, and staying warm probably wears her out as well. So I wrapped her up in a towel, sat with her for a while, decided I'm worried, and brought her inside which I sorta didn't want to do, cause I guess she'll get used to the temperature in the house. Anyway, she's sleeping on the floor, right next to me on her towel, Stevie dog is kinda keeping an eye on her, licking her where she thinks baby needs it. I'm hoping she'll wake up, and want some of this bottle.

Don't know what to do, I'm ASSUMING she hasn't ate since birth. My first kid, I'm lost. Did read about "freshners"? First mothers, and also bottle fed babies not having that motherly instinct to nurse. I dunno, all new to me, like I Said, wasn't ready for this just yet.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You need to milk out mom and tube her now. Otherwise she will die.


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## MrSchaeferPants (Dec 31, 2013)

Now, I've never milked a goat, milked a cow before, I wondered if momma was just 'dry'? I tried, and got nothing, which is why I went out and got the formula. Not saying I was doing it right, sure I wasn't. All the goats, momma included don't care much for attention, so she won't just LET me milk her. I can accomplish it regardless though.

I'ma search, though I'll definitly check back for a response here. Tubing her, in her mouth, or down her throat? I'm familiar with both, just not in animals. Have had some training with nasal and oral tubing with people, in the Army.

Off to the interwebz, and youtube. I'll get this done

EDIT: Watched a video, tubing in her stomach, length of tube, 2oz, crimp before I pull out to prevent liquid entering lungs on the way out. Got it, I'll post back later.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

ksalvagno said:


> You need to milk out mom and tube her now. Otherwise she will die.


I agree.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes - she needs the colostrum (from her mom) NOW! The formula won't cut it. She is EXHAUSTED and probably cold. If you can get an anal temperature reader please tell us. Does the mother's udder look like it has millk in it? Is it all swollen? If it isn't - is there another doe in there that may be close to kidding and has a full udder?

Tube to her stomach the colostrum from whichever doe you can get it from, I forget the amount 2-4 oz to start? 

Put a dab of karo syrup or molasses on the back of the babies tongue right now to get an energy kick in to her so she doesn't give up on you. Once she gets that colostrum in her tummy she should revive. If her temp is below 100 degree F you need to warm her up vigorously before tubing!

Tie mom TIGHT to the fence and tie one back leg up in order to get the milking done.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

You need to tube her down into her stomach ASAP. Don't wait, she will not make it.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Tube down the gullet.
Kid needs to be warm (at least 100) before she gets fed.
By the picture this is not looking good I hate to say.
Hindsight; kids need their first meal with in a couple hrs of birth. Mamas should be locked up with kids a few days after kidding with no lookie loos.
Sorry to be so blunt. Many a doe gets pretty nervous.
If you don't have thermometer kid's mouth needs to be toasty warm.
She needs colostrum not just replacer.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

That baby hasn't eaten at all.. if mama just delivered and walked away then she never went back to her kid to allow her to feed.
Baby looks to be in sad shape  Tubing her would be best, into her stomach through her mouth but you will need to get her body temp up to 100* first.
And, I'd advise getting each of those does used to being handled, baby is Lamancha so mama should be milked as she is a dairy breed, get her on a milkstand 2-3 times a day and work on milking her. You don't squeeze and pull like you would a cow but encirlcle the top of the teat close around the udder, fill the teat, close off the top and squeeze the milk out of the teat...bump upwards after expressing to fill it again.
I hope this baby recovers but unless you can get her temp up and milk in her belly, it doesn't look promising


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

will one survive without colostrum if you just can't get any? I was under the impression that they had to have colostrum to live and regular milk or replacer just wouldn't do alone.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Nubianfan they absolutely need colostrum, the first few hours is critical for their first meal & well into the next 24 & 48 hrs.

See if you can get mama in, tie up short, speak soflty to her. She is stressed out that's why she isn't letting down the gold. Hold up a rear leg & milk with the other hand. She should get uncomfortable real soon with a full udder.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

That is kind of what I thought. sounds like a good reason to freeze some extra at each kidding in case of a disaster or some sort.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

They can survive without colostrum. Problem is their chance of getting sick are higher or their chance from dying from a sickness is higher. But I have seen alpacas who got no colostrum and went on to be just fine so I would think the same thing could happen for a goat kid.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

that's good to know Karen. Obviously isn't the ideal but good to know.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Oh poor baby  I hope things are going well. Please let us know if she makes it! Hats off to you for doing your best :hug:
Take this as a learning experience....always watch for them to nurse and be sure they are getting something before you leave them.They should nurse within 30 minutes I'd say.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> They can survive without colostrum. Problem is their chance of getting sick are higher or their chance from dying from a sickness is higher. But I have seen alpacas who got no colostrum and went on to be just fine so I would think the same thing could happen for a goat kid.


And when they go down they go down fast and there is no recovery

Carmen, Co-Owner Oleo Acres LLC, Nw Ks


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## MrSchaeferPants (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks to all for the helpful tips and advice. I was kind of in a disadvantage this past 24 hours. Power was out, couldn't look up info online, or come here to ask for help. Earlier today the wife was at work, son had the truck, so I was car-less. Just a lot of things going against me here :shocked:


Got a syringe and tube, ended up getting about 1oz out of mom earlier, would have been closer to two, but holding a horn in one hand, and milking with another, left her legs free to kick my container :eyeroll: So on my wife's way home from work, she picked up the syring, tube, and some bottles, and picked up a small bag of the colostrum formula. I did the 1oz of moms, and 1oz of the formula and she's doing well. Here shortly I'll go out again and have my wife help hold momma down and hold the container so I can get ALL of it in there, and have some for later.

Reallllly had to practice on my milking skills, it's been decades, but got 'er done. Super small teets didn't help. Momma calmed down after a few minutes, guess she felt some relief. I need to build a milking stand asap.

All's well AFAIK. Stevie dawg helped clean baby off after feeding, guess she found a new friend. I'll post another update tomorrow, been a long day. And I'll get a few pics up in the newborn thread too.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

Good Job!! I sure do hope she pulls through for you. I will be in a similar position soon, my very first doe to kid is due in early may.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

:shocked::tears:ray:


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## MrSchaeferPants (Dec 31, 2013)

Baby's doing good. Got another ounce and a half from momma last night. Could definitely tell for sure she didn't nurse at all, neither teet was stripped (if I have that term right), had to work pretty hard to get her 2nd to start spraying. So baby woke up around 3 and we gave her that 1 1/2oz.

She's up and about this morning, frisky enough to climb out of the cardboard box bedding I made her, so she's scoping out the living room a bit. Later today when the wife comes home from school, we're gunna try to get momma to nurse. Baby decided baby bottles will work just fine. Going to go out here in a bit and milk momma again.

So, a kidding area is on my things to do, and a milking stand. I've read/seen them here, and online searches, but it's been a "I get to it one day" job. Guess one day will be much sooner than later. My next challenge now is figuring out how and when to start acclimating her to the cold again. Crisp 18 degrees this morning, and cold/wintery all week. Also need to seriously think about controlling pregnancies, don't want anymore cold weather babies, that's for sure.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

I don't know how far you are from Beebe Arkansas but there has been a ready made milk stand for sale there on criaglist for some time. They had it listed at $90 but have dropped it to $85 if the price is an issue they might accept offers.


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## MrSchaeferPants (Dec 31, 2013)

NubianFan said:


> I don't know how far you are from Beebe Arkansas but there has been a ready made milk stand for sale there on criaglist for some time. They had it listed at $90 but have dropped it to $85 if the price is an issue they might accept offers.


Thanks for the heads up, just checked it out. It's about 4 hours round trip. The price is right on par, but I think with the time and gas, I'll just find some builds/look at some pics and build one myself. Would be nice just to have it done though. I need a place to put it too! Even my goat shanty is a temporary build, our property is new, so I don't have permanent designated areas yet, nor it cleared to build something anyway. I tossed up my current goat shanty in a half day with random materials I had laying around. My next one I think will be a modular design so I can take it apart.


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## 7blessings (Jun 30, 2013)

What kind of formula is she drinking? Do you have any Selenium/Vitamin E Gel or Vitamin B Complex? What is Momma doe eating, alfalfa, 16% dairy goat pellets? Any minerals out free choice?


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

There is also a thread on here about how to make a milking stand, very thorough step by step instructions. Check that out as well. I am no carpenter but I think with those instructions even I could make one. hang on a sec and I will see if I can find the linkage. Here is the link to those plans really good info and instructions here. http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f203/stanchion-milking-stand-insctuctions-135000/


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad she is doing ok. You may or may not have a bottle baby on your hands. If this was mom's first time, it was probably very confusing.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Wow my hat's off to you!! Amazing job! Frankly I didn't think the baby would make it through the night.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

:stars: Oh this is wonderful news  Congrats and good job! :clap:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Awesome news! I too didn't think the little one would survive, so happy to hear that she has beat the odds :hug:


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## MrSchaeferPants (Dec 31, 2013)

7blessings said:


> What kind of formula is she drinking? Do you have any Selenium/Vitamin E Gel or Vitamin B Complex? What is Momma doe eating, alfalfa, 16% dairy goat pellets? Any minerals out free choice?


Baby is pretty much drinking mommas milk. Supplementing "Kid Colostrum Supplement" if we run out of milk. But now after those first couple milkings, we're getting more and more out of momma each time. Tonight we're taking baby in and I'll hold momma and try to get the baby to nurse.

Momma and all the rest of the goats, eat probably 95% browse, foraging is all they do, and we still have plenty of random things to eat, even this time of year, in this weather. It's actually why we got the goats, to control brush.

I have a big bag of goat pellets, not sure of it's consistancy. But also have a bag of goat minerals, that I sprinkle into a bucket with the pellets. Usually only give it to them when I needed their attention. Now that I'm being sneaky and pouring out some feed in order to grab momma and milk her, they're all eating quite a bit more of it.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The minerals really need to be out free choice.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Yes , they need minerals to balance their needs  Without it being free choice , its not really doing them any good.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

I would think even a foraging goat needs some hay too...and maybe a few alfalfa pellets for the milking mom if hay is all grass. I've heard people just put a few flakes out at night to keep encouraging the goats to forage all day...but a milking mom probably needs a little more than forage, I would think. Suyppose it depends on your climate and forage too. I'm sure you do your own body condition scoring and such but I know balancing potassium and calcium is important for just-freshened does and hard to do on browse.


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## MrSchaeferPants (Dec 31, 2013)

Ok, I'll start separating that, and pouring some out so they can decide.


So it's now day 3. Been reading charts online, trying to figure out how much she should be eating. Some of these numbers seem ridiculously high. We had a scale at one point in time, no idea where it is though. Right now she's drinking about 1-3oz a sitting, maybe 4-6 times a day. Basically I try to feed her until she decides she's done, once she pulls away and stops 2-3 times I figure she's done.

Last night we finally got her to nurse off momma, with much effort. Had to hold her by the horn, and hold a leg up. Getting baby to find, and latch on was hard. No idea how much she drank. Momma didn't like it AT ALL at first, but I think at first she just didn't like that one teet, which is the harder one to milk, when I tried the other, baby got more, and momma seemed more relaxed. Going to try it again tonight, and then this weekend, might keep them locked up together in the goat house during the daytime hours to see if something just 'clicks' finally.

Also wondering, how well should she be walking, and how much during the day should she be walking around exploring? She walks around pretty good IMO, and yesterday she was active for a few hours inbetween naps, slept all night and this morning she was up and about for an hour or two, ate, and is back napping again now.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

There are some good formulas on here for bottle feeding. It is about 10% of body weight 4 times daily. So if she weighs 5 pounds, then 5 ounces four times daily. Milk intake will obviously increase as she ages and grows. When she is nursing mom, feel her belly afterwards while she stands. It should feel firm, not squishy. Same with after bottle, only not quite as firm feeling with bottle.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/overfeedingnewbo.html

This is a great article on bottle feeding and how much. This website has lots of info for newbies too.


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## MrSchaeferPants (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks for the links. She's doing about 4.5-5oz easy now. I think a big problem with her turning away from the bottle earlier was because we got a pack of baby bottles because we were in a bind, and it just didn't deliver enough, fast enough. So I opened the hole a bit, before 1/2oz took forever. Needa go online and order some stuff, our local TSC is lacking in the kid department. Read mixed results on the pritchard and lambar nipple. Guess I'll get both and try them out.

On a good note, she's bouncing around acting like a baby goat!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad she is doing well!


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## fuzyjack (Jan 10, 2014)

Well, first of all, you need to learn how to milk a goat, AND FAST, otherwise, your doe might die. Also, you might have to bottle feed your kid if the momma doe want let her nurse. Some does will turn out to be GREAT mothers. Others, not so much. That's when you have gotta step in. I know bottle feeding goats can be a pain but it might be your only choice. Also, it doesn't seem like you know too much about goats in general. Maybe read up on it a little more 


Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


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## fuzyjack (Jan 10, 2014)

MrSchaeferPants said:


> Thanks for the links. She's doing about 4.5-5oz easy now. I think a big problem with her turning away from the bottle earlier was because we got a pack of baby bottles because we were in a bind, and it just didn't deliver enough, fast enough. So I opened the hole a bit, before 1/2oz took forever. Needa go online and order some stuff, our local TSC is lacking in the kid department. Read mixed results on the pritchard and lambar nipple. Guess I'll get both and try them out.
> 
> On a good note, she's bouncing around acting like a baby goat!


AWESOME! That's great. Glad you all are all good now 

Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

MrSchaeferPants said:


> Momma didn't like it AT ALL at first, but I think at first she just didn't like that one teet, which is the harder one to milk, when I tried the other, baby got more, and momma seemed more relaxed.


I would check the doe for mastitis if you haven't already.There is a reason she is not liking that side more than the other and why it is harder to get....great job on the baby though. Sounds like you are doing great with her


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