# Do you Dam raise or bottle raise your kids?



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I was just curious who dam raises and who doesn't. 
I bottle raise.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I dam raise. Our kids are every bit as friendly as the bottle raised ones, and I like to do things as naturally as possible. I feel that emotionally and physically it's better for them and the mommas. 

I do understand the reasons behind bottle raising, though :thumb: Just not my cup of tea.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Dam raise and very much dislike bottle raising.


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

Bottle Raising all the way! Kids don't even get to sniff mom. They are whisked away to the heated kid house as soon as they have their faces cleaned. And they are sooo friendly after about an hour or two. People say that they are bigger and healthier if you dam raise, but that is a lie. If you do it right, they will turn out great. I went to shows this year and had the biggest kids in the class and all were born within a few days.


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## TiffofMo (Jan 10, 2011)

Dam raised, with my human kids always holding them its like there bottle babies lol.


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

Dam raise -I only bottle feed if I need too-my kids are always friendly-I have never had an issue with unfreindly kids!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

milkmaid10 said:


> People say that they are bigger and healthier if you dam raise, but that is a lie. If you do it right, they will turn out great. I went to shows this year and had the biggest kids in the class and all were born within a few days.


I agree, if done right bottle babies grow just as big. I can say that because my biggest doe was a bottle baby, haha :laugh:

Of my two senior does, one was bottle raise, one was dam raised. Both are wonderful friends and super sweet. So I also think that if dam raising kids are socialized, they are not any less friendly than bottle raised.

It's all about what works for you and your herd. We all do what we feel is right for our goaties.


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

We bottle raise. I simply hate dam raising, it is such a huge pain in the neck! Ours are removed the second they hit the ground, and aren't introduced to the herd till they're a month old atleast.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Dam raise. I just don't have the time or inclination to bottle raise. I will if I have to but hate being restricted with a bottle feeding schedule. I spend time with my kids so they are friendly.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Lost Prairie said:


> We bottle raise. I simply hate dam raising, it is such a huge pain in the neck! Ours are removed the second they hit the ground, and aren't introduced to the herd till they're a month old atleast.


Huh? There is nothing hard about the dam raising her babies. She does all the work. Bottle feeding is hard, takes up a lot of time and cost more too. I am fine with those who bottle feed if they want to. For me nothing could be harder than bottle feeding 15 or so babies or even one! We have triplets and I make sure that the mamma is going to take all of them because I sure don't have the time to bottle feed. It only takes me one day of helping with a new nervous mamma that thinks she cant take care of three. I convince her that she can and she WILL because I'm not going to want to bottle feed unless I have to. So far we havent had to but it took a couple of hours on one doe. Way easier than a bottle. All of our babies are so friendly and cuddly. They curl up in my lap and cuddle.


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

I will say that if all i did was stay home with the laies-like I want to :]-I would bottle feed -just becaue I would run out of things to do!!!
Fingers crossed that we win the lotto this evening!


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

For us .. we don't have dairy but meat goats and there is a special bonding that I love to see with a proud mamma and her babies. I love watching how each doe manages her kids and how well she can make them listen to her. Some havent learned how to parent as well and their kids don't listen as well. I have one very smart Doe (our queen) that kept track of which triplet had nursed and would only let two nurse at a time. All of her babies got fed well even the more timid one because mamma was in charge. This Doe also had all of her babies following her in a line. She was so in charge of her kids that they only nursed when she allowed them to. She's an amazing mamma Doe. I love seeing the mammas call their babies to them. I love watching all of this from my kitchen breakfast table in the spring and it warms my heart to see all the mammas and babies and it's no work for me at all.. I just sit back and watch while drinking my coffee.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

@packhillboers: I'm the same way. I love that beautiful bond the families have with each other. One of my does, Busy Bee, loves babies so much she adopted Patti (Gypsy's daughter) when we sold Busy Bee's son. It was so sweet ... I love seeing the mommas watching out for them, sleeping with them, making their precious "I love you, baby," noises


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

mnblonde said:


> I will say that if all i did was stay home with the laies-like I want to :]-I would bottle feed -just becaue I would run out of things to do!!!
> Fingers crossed that we win the lotto this evening!


Ha ha.. I remember when I quite my full time job, and came home. The first 2 weeks, I didnt know what to do with myself. It wasnt long before I had my self so very busy. I work harder physically than ever and joke that I need to go back to work so I can relax. In order to fit everything in my day, I have to time myself to each task. It's the right time for me to be home, as our parents moved her with us and need us. .. but those years with all the kids in school, and sports and me working full time and husband overtime.. those were busy times... and it has taken several years to make up all the years of no time and no money to put into this place. The acres were getting poison oak, star thistles, the house was falling apart... now we are busy making up for lost time.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Dam raise for 3 reasons.
1. IMO, it is unfair to let a doe carry the kids for five months, go through a painful labor, and then not let her raise them. I'm not anthropomorphizing: I have seen the disappointment in a doe whose kid was taken away before she could even look at it.
2. It's easier to dam raise. I know - I supplemented a kid with a bottle because I had to. It was fun, but too much work to be worth it, IMO.
3. It's healthier. Bottle raising is only comparable if you use real milk, not replacer.
And another point: CAE prevention is a big issue with some people. Just ask yourself - is the almost negligible possibility of transmission from a test-negative doe, worth the labor involved in bottle raising time after time?
Okay, I know I've fanned some bottle raisers' tempers. To be fair, I'll read your reasons if you want to list them!


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

PackHill-No kid but the 4 legged ones! I know I would be busy but busy for me and not otheres yah know-oh I know you know what i mean !!
MilkMaid-ditto on all your points


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

I only dam raise and avoid bottle feeding, will go through great lengths to get that momma to take all of her kids. But this last kidding season something interesting happened and I may try to take adavatage of it a little more, I discovered there is a demand for bottle raised Boer kids, especially with families wanting young children to show in open shows. I ended up with 2 bottle babies this year out of 48 kids, and I didn't have to bottle feed them long, because they sold like hot cakes. I had 4 people interested in the one. so I might try it again this year and not fuss so much if I end up with a couple bottle babies. Well, both were does. So I would see it would probably be harder of a sale if they were bucks or wethers. 
I didn't sell them at a discount either, I charged extra for them being tame, and charged for all bottle feeding costs from birth.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Definitely all for dam raising! Bottle kids may be cute, but even when I raised dairy goats, bottle raising would have been too costly and labor intensive to be worth it. Besides, I'm sure my goats know how to care for their kids better than I do, at least when they're allowed to.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I can honestly say I think humans put way more thoughts in an animals head than is actually there. I pulled amyah and Bailey didn't even blink an eye. I know some may cry but I don't think for one second it harms them in any way. I have bottle raised goats here and dam raised. I dont' feel bottle raised are any tamer than dam raised. I do tell you this much, you can tell if a goat has been handled much and if a HUMAN has spent much time with it, now that has an effect on a goat but I honestly don't beleive how it is fed does.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Milkmaid..i dont' take offense because i'm going to things how i do it because it's my way lol..


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## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

I dam raised this year but my plan from now on is this... dam raise for two weeks, then when I start separating the kids at night to do the once-a-day milking, start them on the bottle for daytime feedings. (no nighttime feedings) I'm hoping that the "taping the teats with first aid tape" method I used to wean works well enough that everyone can still be together. We're not set up to have separate areas for the goats so I can't separate kids from mommas. I'll be using momma's milk for the babies as my reasons for bottle feeding have more to do with udder health for the dams, ease of medicating (it was such a pain to have to hold them down and drench with di-methox for cocci prevention!) and comparative ease of weaning than wanting to keep the milk. I feel this is the best of both worlds... the mommas get to enjoy their babies and bond with them from the beginning, the babies get to be with everyone and learn how to be goats and do goatie things, and she takes care of the nighttime feedings during the time it's really necessary.  Then I'll take over feedings and hopefully everything will be smooth sailing. I've talked to a few people who've done it this way and they said that as long as the kid is good and hungry, it should be a pretty easy transition to the bottle.


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## WalshKidsGoats (Nov 27, 2012)

We have always dam raised our kids. Once the kids are two weeks old we start separating them from their moms at night and then letting them back in with them in the day. That way we can milk in the morning and the kids take care of the evening milking. It works for us!

www.walshkidsgoats.com

Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Walsh-Kids-Nigerian-Dwarf-Goats/324321484319986?ref=hl


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

We dam raise unless the momma cant handle it. Less time and money involved, and the kids grow healthier and bigger.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

milkmaid said:


> Dam raise for 3 reasons.
> 1. IMO, it is unfair to let a doe carry the kids for five months, go through a painful labor, and then not let her raise them. I'm not anthropomorphizing: I have seen the disappointment in a doe whose kid was taken away before she could even look at it.
> 2. It's easier to dam raise. I know - I supplemented a kid with a bottle because I had to. It was fun, but too much work to be worth it, IMO.
> 3. It's healthier. Bottle raising is only comparable if you use real milk, not replacer.
> ...


This is a great post, basically sums up how I feel about bottle raising. And I do feel it's hard on the does as well as unfair...and i'm not one to give my animals human emotions, but watching a doe search for her newly delivered kids and yell out for them for a few days. You can see a depression there with many does. I've noticed it's easier when a doe has kids die where she can accept the death and quickly recover then when she delivers and can't find her kids.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

HamiltonAcresBoers said:


> We dam raise unless the momma cant handle it. Less time and money involved, and the kids grow healthier and bigger.


I've also noticed an "unthriftiness" with many bottle kids vs. dam raised kids.


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

packhillboers said:


> Huh? There is nothing hard about the dam raising her babies. She does all the work. Bottle feeding is hard, takes up a lot of time and cost more too. I am fine with those who bottle feed if they want to. For me nothing could be harder than bottle feeding 15 or so babies or even one!


Dam raising for us is extremely hard, the babies are nutso wild, you can't wean them, the does scream their heads off when the kids leave, and the does are very hard to milk as they want their babies to have the milk, not you...We also practice CAE prevention...A couple of our does yell for their kids, and some don't even notice.


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

packhillboers said:


> Huh? There is nothing hard about the dam raising her babies. She does all the work. Bottle feeding is hard, takes up a lot of time and cost more too.


 It doesn't cost more at all. We use the milk from our does, after it is sterilized, we feed it.

Plus, dam raising can ruin a show doe's udder in a SHORT amount of time, especially first fresheners. Take a look at the national champions this year. How many of them have nursed kids? They don't. Also, my goats would have no idea how to care for a kid, because they were bottle raised as well!

Yes, dam raising saves time for feeding, but when you have to chase 20 kids down for vaccinations, hoof trimming, and other things, it's really worth filling bottles. Also, I have dealt with dam raised kids who have been handled and pet everyday of their lives and they are still wild and hard to catch. They are also impossible to show successfully.

Also, let me say again, I have HUGE, HEALTHY kids that have ALL been bottle raised, with very little grain. They are no smaller than dam raised kids, actually, mine were much bigger than a friend's who dam raised this year.

Also! You can CAE test all you want, but you can never guarantee that they won't come up positive in the future! It happens! I had a goat from someone who never had a single positive goat, and when that doe got older, she got CAE!


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

But don't they cry for them when humans pull them to wean them? I'm asking cause I don't know. Don't animals get mad when we sell them off to strangers after they have spent months or years at our home? It may be hard on them im not saying it is, I don'tknow because my doe never cared but I also know that it's just part of it that I'm willing to do and accept because it's the way I feel is best for me. I don't feel there is a right or wrong here IMO. I started this thread not to debate or see who's way as better but out of curiosity to how others do things on their farm. Not that i'm upset people are posting why they bottle or dam raise just letting you all know why i started this. I'm not offended that others dam raise nor do i think they are wrong. If it works for you than i'm happy for you I personally feel bottle raising works for me.


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

milkmaid10 said:


> It doesn't cost more at all. We use the milk from our does, after it is sterilized, we feed it.
> 
> Plus, dam raising can ruin a show doe's udder in a SHORT amount of time, especially first fresheners. Take a look at the national champions this year. How many of them have nursed kids? They don't. Also, my goats would have no idea how to care for a kid, because they were bottle raised as well!
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better!!!
Honesly, I don't think anyone that dam raises can be successful in the show ring long term, because your does udders IMO can't handle nursing kids over the years.
This is just my opinion, but these are dairy animals, and they shouldn't be allowed to raise their kids.


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

I dam raise also. I hate having bottle babies. One year we had a couple bottle babies and they were awful! They jumped all over me and my son. We couldn't do anything without them hearing us and screaming or following us and biting our fingers. 
If I have a kid that isn't growing like it should I will supplement it or pull it, but that's only if I have to and usually if they are doe/buck siblings I'll pull the doeling. 
As far a friendliness you can have the tamest doe with the wildest kids or the opposite. I think it depends on the kid


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

I do a mix of both. The kids stay with mom three to five days then I separate and bottle feed in a pen within sight to mom. If I don't have time to bottle feed one day I will just throw the kids back in with mom and my girls generally let them nurse. I can't totally dam raise because my girls can be very mean to kids that are not theirs so I worry about a kid getting hurt otherwise I would dam raise. Once the kids are at least three or four months old they are let into the herd.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

We dam raise unless we have to bottle feed. When we first got into goats we had our two dam raised does, we went with a friend to pick up two bottle wethers and thought on getting ONE... came home with TWO bottle wethers... We didn't keep them very long... They yelled for us if they heard or saw us... We couldn't even have our windows open and talk... We had a tarp up on the front of the pen but it didn't help much cause they still yelled... we ended up giving them to someone who had one pygmy doe that gave birth a few days after they got there and she took care of them along with her kids.. 

We had one bottle baby that our doe rejected (she had a rough start when she was born and was the runt.) BUT she lived outside and her momma still let her sleep with her and she would care for her, just not let her nurse. ( I know, weird! LOL!) then this year one doe got mastitis a few weeks fresh.. those kids went on a bottle so I could give momma ToDay.. They too lived with momma for a while (till they found out how to get the teat tape off... :roll: ) then they went to their new home on bottles... I could never take a kid away from the dam at birth... It would break my heart to do that to her they DO have feelings, I have seen it first hand multiple times.. I agree with Kylee that a death would be easier on them... all of my goats have either been dam raised or a combo of the two. and all my Sr. does have raised their kids... I agree it's fun to bottle feed if you have the time, and they are cute and most of the time sell quickly... but I just don't do it... My dam raised kids are super friendly! They come running when ever I go out to see them  Warms my heart  they love to play and snuggle and they aren't as obnoxious as bottle babies IMHO.. And we haven't had a problem with mommas and weaning time... the kids sometimes get a little upset the first few days, but that's it... I think weaning bottle babies is a bit worse! LOL! They think you are their mommy so it's a bit louder. 

As far as the udders go... I think they were MADE to raise their kids, no one goes and bottle feeds wild goats... God made them to raise their kids. I know a LOT of breeders that dam raise and their older does still have nice udders that win in the show ring. I think if a goats attachment or something are going to get weaker the kids aren't going to do it.. it's gonna happen anyway... Dairy or meat or fiber... I think they should feed their kids... just my :2cents:


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

People who bottle feed. Don't feel so defensive or guilty. We all have different purposes here for our goats. But bottle feeders.. you will find that people will usually be more into 'dam' raised because it is natural so there really is no need for you to put 'dam' raising down or try to prove it is harder... its just a matter of what your ranch purpose can be defined as. Goodness... we are meat goat ranchers.. we EAT some of our goats.  at which people can not usually comprehend pets and food on the same ranch. If you have show goats or milk goats.. you will bottle feed... it may not always be what is best for your doe but then.. if it is best for your ranch puropose then that is what you do. It is also hard for me to have to sell a mammas bonded babies and next season, I will wait until I know they are more ready to leave their mammas. This year.. I let the queen keep her special baby doeling as she never gets to keep any of her babies. and yes.. she struggled with depression last time all her babies left. She didnt recover from that for a while so I kept her little pencil neck tiny doeling just for her sake but will never have her baby bred. Each ranch operates differently and we all keep things in balance. No animals are abused by bottle raising. I just like to have happy mammas and babies together.


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## Twisted Vines Farm (Jun 11, 2011)

I generally dam raise. I'm not opposed to bottle raising and occasionally do if the kid isn't getting enough milk from the dam for one reason or another...
I enjoy seeing the moms hanging out with their babies. :grouphug:


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## Goat Luvr (May 3, 2012)

We dam raise. The only time we have ever bottlefed was with our triplet boys that were born last month. We didn't separate though. We just gave one of the boys a bottle along with mom's milk because he wasn't growing as well. Now he's only getting mom's milk and the other 2 only ever got mom's milk.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Pack...I hope I didn't give the impression I was offended or defensive. I'm not in any way defending why i bottle feed because i feel my way is the only way for me so therefore i feel no need to defend what i feel is right. I don't feel this is a right or wrong way to feeding the kids, I just think they main purpose here is to feed them no matter which way a breeder/owner chooses. Anyway just wanted to let you know i'm not offended and appreciate everyone's opinions whether I agree with them or not and hope that others appreciate mine. Course i have yet to say why I do bottle feed lol..


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I've seen champions who raised their babies. Nine year old champions with nine freshenings, all of which the babies were dam raised. Not to sound harsh, but it's actually a good test for the udder. If the udder can't stand raising babies, shouldn't we breed for a stronger udder? Just my two cents.

Also want to say -- this can be a very touchy subject in which breeders become defensive. The long and short of it is that we are all doing what we feel is right for our babies and mommas. Any breeder who cares for their animals and does their best to care for them as well as they can is a good breeder, no matter what differences there are. IMO everyone on here is a good, kind breeder, whether they bottle raise or no :thumb:


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## FlyingFeetsFarm (Nov 28, 2012)

I have both dam raised and bottle raised and what it basically comes down to when decided which you want to do its how much time do you have to spend with your goats, and if you want friendly kids. I don't have much time to work with my babies, so for that reason I bottle feed, because I can't stand it when goats are wild. It is true that bottle kids can be obnoxious, but just like a puppy you can train them not to act that way with a squirt bottle or some other method similar. Even with bottle feeding its not a sure fire way to have friendly kids, I have had some goats that were wild the moment they were born and were always skittish even though they were bottle fed. I have had goats that were dam raised that were just as friendly as bottle raised kids (and some just as obnoxious). I do find that most of my bottle babies are a little more trusting than dam raised kids and will accept you touching them everywhere and easier to work with when it comes to hoof trimming, vaccines, and worming. I pull kids immediately at birth and don't even let the does see them if I plan to bottle feed, if a doe has her kids when I'm not there and bonds with them I don't take them away because I feel it is cruel to do that once they bond with them. One of the biggest issues I have with bottle feeding is getting the kids to want to eat hay, because they learn to eat it from their dams and when you bottle feed them they never get to see their dam eating so some of them take a bit of work to get to eat hay. 

If you show a lot I think bottle feeding is great for CAE prevention because you never know what your goats could pick up at a show, but if you have a closed herd, don't show, and all your does tested negative then there is no point in bottle feeding other than to make sure the kids are friendly if you don't have time to work with them.


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## Jane (Apr 17, 2011)

I bottle-raise our kids. Over the last several years I have worked hard to get CAE out of my herd. The kids are raised in groups of the same age (my does kid within 2 weeks of each other) on bucket feeders, drinking what they want when they want. They get heat-treated colostrum and a colostrum supplement for the first few days, then are switched onto unpasteurized cow milk directly from our cows. 
After having my favorite does put down due to CAE, I am a little psychotic about prevention. All kids are pulled at birth. Mom never sees them. But the does usually lick me off and talk to me like I'm their kid.
Also have had does try intently to kill their kids...


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Well.. just to clear up the false thot's toward Dam raised kids on them being more wild than bottle raised kids. They do not have to be wild and most all of our kids are not wild at all. Once in a while there will be a few with a more skitterish disposition. Our dam raised kids love people attention. I am able to go out to the field and have little babies all come running to us .. some will jump up on my lap and beg to have attention. Some curl up to be cuddled and I love this. I try to teach them manners to not jump up at all and not to nibble or bite. 
If we ever had a Doe that tried to kill her own babies at birth on purpose.. we would probably put that doe down or try to figure out why she would do that. That kind of behavior is not normal. What makes the babies wild is if they are raised in a large open field far away from any humans at all. ... or... if they have an imprint of fear after their immunizations or other memory of humans inflicting pain.. We had a loving little buckling.. after he became a wether.. he was terrified of my husband. He remembered and never forgot that he had caused some pain... the others forgot completely and are still pesty tame. 

I also don't like that tho't of having to wipe or clean the babies' bottoms.. the mammas do all the work on that end. It is all about different types and purposes for our different operations. The show goat , the show dog and the show horses all are on a different operation than the average hobby, land management farm.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Lost Prairie said:


> Couldn't have said it better!!!
> Honesly, I don't think anyone that dam raises can be successful in the show ring long term, because your does udders IMO can't handle nursing kids over the years.
> This is just my opinion, but these are dairy animals, and they shouldn't be allowed to raise their kids.


I think saying that they "shouldn't be allowed" is very harsh. You make it sound as if the does dont deserve to have their kids. And to say that dam raising means you won't be successful is just not true.


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

Honesty, I don't think they should be allowed to keep their kids. I as a dairy breeder beleive that all kids should be raised on prevention, not by their dams.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I started with a dam raised saanen doe. Her mother was wonderful, she was a wonderful mother, never had a sick kid (her first set of twins weighed around 60lb at 7 weeks). They were all friendly (except for one buck kid this year. No idea why). Her family was bred to raise their own kids and her 12 year old mother had a gorgeous udder after 11 freshenings and about 15 kids. That was the type of doe I wanted to raise, so I did.

Then I got a bottle raised doe (Dorsey-Lane) who lost her first kid. She was so heartbroken, even as a ff, her owners couldn't bear pulling her kids next season. She had gone off feed and wouldn't socialize. When she had her triplets the next season, she was nervous as all get-out, but it was unmistakable excitement, no anthropomorphising. She was just so happy to have 3 live kids of her own. 

I have had one bottle baby and I loved her to bits. I can't use her to compare to other bottle babies, she was blind, brain damaged and had issues with nutrition absorption, so we euthed her after a week, but I loved every minute of taking care of her.

Just figured I'd share my reasons for dam raising over bottling (lack of a market is another factor). I have never had a problem with bottle raising. NO situation is going to be the same, and nobody is right or wrong.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I think theres been stereotypes and generalisations from both sides here, which is not fair. Let me clear up some of the bottle raising ones since I bottle raise my dairy kids. Note that these only apply to the method I use to artificially rear kids, they wont apply to all bottle raising scenarios.

*1. It is not time consuming or labour intensive*. Well sure it can be if you are giving multiple bottles a day, but I dont. My kids are reared on ad lib cold milk in bulk feeders. In the morning I dump a bucket of milk in it. In the afternoon I rinse it under the hose and re-fill it. Once a week I wash it in detergent. Time is very important to me, I work full time, 12 days on, 2 days off, and I have an hour and a half commute each way. So I have very little time to be bottle feeding kids, which is why I use the bulk feeder. Very quick and easy. It didnt even take me long to teach them to drink from the bulk feeder, I had them drinking from it the same day they were born.

*2. It is not cruel to the mothers*. I feed the kids directly from birth. Two of my does dont really like to suckle their kids, so the kids stay with them right from the start, I just bottle feed. Since mum doesnt teach them to suckle, the kids dont try. My other does try to suckle the kids so the kids are simply kept in the same pen with a dividing gate for the first few days, after that they run back with the mum, she doesnt try to feed them, they dont try to suckle, and I bottle feed (well - when I say bottle feed I mean that they drink from the bulk feeder with teats). The mothers bond with their kids and teach them how to be goats so it works out well.

*3. My kids are as big as or bigger than dam raised kids*. They have no tendency towards being unthrifty, unless you dont do it right (eg. they get cocci - which can happen with dam raised as well, or you dont feed them enough milk, or dont start them on solid feed etc.). My kids raised on this system started eating solids at 1 week old.

*4. My kids are not obnoxious*. I hear this one all the time. My kids are trained properly so they know that jumping up is unacceptable, biting is unacceptable etc. I think not separating them from the mob helps, and I think a huge thing is having them feed off the bulk feeder not off bottles. They dont associate people with milk and they dont scream at you when they want a bottle. They know they are goats and that makes a world of difference.

*5. It is not costly. *I feed their mummas milk back to them - so it doesnt cost any more than if she was feeding them herself. Sometimes I will need to buy some extra cows milk since my girls decided to all have triplets or quads - but if I was dam rearing I would have to anyway since they couldnt keep up with four (and I wouldnt expect a doe to). I made my bulk feeder myself and it cost me a total of $40.

Why I do it

The main reason is that I like friendly goats, and as I said in point number 1, I have very little time. I dont have time to spend with the babies handling them and ensuring they are friendly, like I used to do with my angoras and boers. So I bottle feed mainly for that reason - I get friendly kids with very little time spent with them. I have just bought a doe with two kids on her and they are a marked difference, they are curious but nothing like my kids and never will be since they wont get as much attention. I have since sold them to a lady who is home all day and they are starting to get tame because she is out there all the time with them. Other reasons include because I show, and because I milk them. Because I prefer the temperament of a well behaved ex bottle baby milking doe compared with a dam raised one. And finally, because the market here is for young kids still on the bottle, not weaned dam raised kids.


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## Wild_Sunshine (Sep 11, 2012)

This is getting interesting....
There are many reasons to bottlefeed. Whether it be because mom can't take care of them, for disease prevention, or a number of other reasons. However, to say that a goat shouldn't be allowed to raise its baby is wrong. How would you feel if after you had carried a baby to term it was then taken away from you? While some goats probably don't really care, some do! People that truly care about goats shouldn't care so much about what happens in the show ring. And if the udders are good the kid nursing on it shouldn't ruin it.


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

The main reason I even have my goats is for show/breeding reasons, so ill do anything to help them hold up their udders for show reasons. First and foremost they need to have top notch udder to hold up, but hey if pulling the babies helps their udders stay nicer, I'm sure as heck going to do it.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I let my mama's raise their kids.
Udders on my does have held up well and I've had a doe give birth to a still born...even though she knew he was dead, the mournful crying and searching for her baby was heartbreaking for me, I am lucky to have does who are wonderfully devoted mama's and I simply could not take their kids away from them to bottle feed. I have a small herd which makes it easy for me to have friendly goats, even with a full time job. 

I have supplemented bottles when needed, my first set of quads had 2 tiny members that needed that extra milk from a bubby and I'd do it again if needed but not as the sole source of milk.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I have sold my 'dam' raised goats to 4Hrs who show them. To help keep a balance to both views here.. it is important to 'be real'. If you are someone who would like to bottle feed and you are under the impression that it is cheaper and easier by reading on these post I feel that you need to understand the 'real' parts of it as well. 

Those little babies have to have their bottoms cleaned off and their little bladders emptying on a normal routine and the mamma goat will take care to help this all flow freely and will also clean her babies up. 

A bottle baby has to have its milk mixed or its mamma milked out and has to have colostrum as well. This is hard work and time consuming. If is best to price this formula before you get into it. Also.. if you are planning on milking out your doe.. consider the time you will have invested into doing this. There is really one main reason for people to bottle feed and that is for dairy goat people. (Sure there are reasons if the mamma can not take care of her babies) If you are planning on bottle feeding strictly to have a friendly goat then you need to have the facts on this. It is fun for little kids to bottle feed a goat and a good experience for some but a dam raised kid can be just as friendly and will even display some good social manners toward its other goat buddies. The mammas will also teach the babies how to eat right. All in kind words: You will not have to go thru' bottle feeding to make a show goat or a pet goat and there has been some defensive views toward bottle raising that are indeed false. We trim hooves and do vaccinations too.. and have no trouble getting our goats to come to us. Some even jump up on the trim table for us and put their head in the lock.


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

Plus, goats don't even know they're pregnant, they don't look forward to the day their babies come into the world, they have no idea what happens to them and why it hurts so bad (labor), they are just happy when Its all over, weather they have their kids or not.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I have to disagree there.. They know they are pregnant.. Why else would they protect their sides from blows(head butts) from other goats so well when bred compaired to other times? They can feel the kids moving inside them.. And I think they do know what labor is.. All my girls look behind them excitedly after they push a kid out. They know. I have heard from plenty of people who have given birth and seen one of my goats give birth that the joy takes the pain away, and they see that in the doe. I have had a few people at different times tell me that. 

I'm not saying bottle raisng is bad in any way shape or form! But I just don't agree with that veiw of it.. And that is just me and every one does things there own way and even if we don't agree we shouldn't put someone down or anything because of the way they raise their kids..


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Lost Prairie said:


> Plus, goats don't even know they're pregnant, they don't look forward to the day their babies come into the world, they have no idea what happens to them and why it hurts so bad (labor), they are just happy when Its all over, weather they have their kids or not.


Not always true. My does make momma noises to their tummies sometimes when the baby kicks, or when they're getting ready for labor. One of my does got very excited and the moment that baby hit the ground she was making those sweet noises, licking them off, helping them nurse.

I have NOTHING against bottle raising. If I had to I would suppliment. I know many wonderful breeders who take the babies from birth and bottle raise. No qualms with them, that is what's best for them. I don't think dam raised or bottle raised babies are any different if they are raised well. I don't think bottle raising is cruel. As long as everyone is cared for, who cares if they're bottle raised or not?

But I think BOTH SIDES need to be careful not to make generalizations, especially when we haven't had personal experience trying things the other way. I don't think it's right to degrade someone else's practices, whether they dam or bottle raise, just because you may do things differently. There are many different people on here with many different lifestyles.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I have another reason why I personally like dam raised goats as it best fits our purpose on our place. I believe they end up smarter for survival. I have observed it actually in most all animals. When you take the babies away from the mammas.. you have taken away a large part of the does purpose and of course you have an animal that may seem 'dumb' or unemotional to you then. They become what we make them out for our purpose and everyone has different type ranches and we make the animal conform to our purpose. So to some it seems silly when we put such emotion into our animals. Well to us .. that emotion is real because we see it displayed in our animals. We see them do funny things.. nevous mamma thinking that she have lost a baby only to realize it was in the little box asleep and then get a silly "I feel stupid look' on her face when you have to show her where it is... ya .. these emotions are real and they are there for those of us who like to sit back, drink coffee and stare out at the goat pasture & observe all the different emotions that go on with all the new mammas and their babies. While others are mixing formula or milking goats .. i'm sitting back enjoying the whole mamma/baby goat thing from my window and am so happy I don't have to wipe a poopoo bottom.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

i have had many bottle kids that didnt ever need their bums wiped and several dam raised kids that did need their bums wiped. 

and im going to be milking regardless, thats why i have dairy goats. of course with my boers and angoras i dam raised because i didnt get them for milking.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Lost Prairie said:


> Plus, goats don't even know they're pregnant, they don't look forward to the day their babies come into the world, they have no idea what happens to them and why it hurts so bad (labor), they are just happy when Its all over, weather they have their kids or not.


Oh.. but they do know and a 2nd time mamma really gets excited. I suppose if they have their babies taken away each time that they could end up losing that natural ability to 'know'. I know it's hard to understand 'natural' ranches vs artificial but.. without making you feel bad.. we do make our goats what they are and we can take their natural instincts away. If you are a goat milk rancher.. it is the way it is for some goats but for you to say that to those who watch the mamma goats in their own pens be so excited.. who have seen their mamma goats give birth and observed that whole process..those goats.. they know and they can be very excited about the whole birth process as those goats have seen the whole process play out.. they know.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Lost Prairie said:


> Plus, goats don't even know they're pregnant, they don't look forward to the day their babies come into the world, they have no idea what happens to them and why it hurts so bad (labor), they are just happy when Its all over, weather they have their kids or not.


I'm not trying to sound rude here, but the past few comments you've made make it sound as if you believe your does have no feelings, and that they're brood and show animals and have no purpose raising the kids that they carried for 5 months. These creatures DO have feelings. And they DO know that they're pregnant. And they DO mourn when babies are taken away. I'm not saying that bottle raising is wrong I'm saying that a mother deserves the right to take care of her baby if she's healthy and the babies are healthy. It's just frustrating to hear you saying things like "they don't deserve their kids". And "they don't even know they're pregnant" when obviously they do. If a doe didn't know that she was pregnant then why would she talk to her belly?! *rant over*


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I don't breed yet however I'm pro-dam raising. With that said, I raised a doe on a bottle. She was three pounds at birth, a trip and mom wouldn't take her so I did. Goats are livestock, livestock are meant to produce and be profitable. If they cant raise kids then what good are they for business? 

I love my goats and I see my bottle baby as a pet over anything else. But when she is big enough she will be bred. 

I disagree that goats dont know theyre pregant or know what labor is. I've seen several give birth and as others have said, they get excited when the baby finally comes. I know a doe right now... its her first time being bred and she talks to her belly with mommy noises. So I think they know and do care for their babies. Plus, their job is production... so they need to be able to produce and raise kids on their own


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

I do beleive my goats have feelings, but I don't give them human emotions, they don't think the way we do. They have no idea that when they go in with a buck that 5 months later they're going to have babies. They don't think about what's going to happen tomorrow, the live in the moment. My goats are not pets, they are not treated like pets, they are show animals. I don't feel bad about taking their kids, because I know they'll be fine without them. They don't need to raise their kids to be happy, they totally forget about it after 48 hours.
I think they talk to their sides because they hurt, either from the babies kicking or a contraction.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Everyone has a way they do things that works for them... wether it be kid rearing or general herd management.

My goats have a purpose... they are my pets first and the milk is very much wanted and those babies that arrive to make the milk aspect possible are every bit pets as their parents and aunts, I totally enjoy milking my does but I also like to be able to just watch how they mother their kids and the looks of frustration on my girls faces when those kids just won't listen when called... and I've also seen what appeared to be panic in my one mama's eyes when she called and called and her kids were not answering or in her sight.
I totally understand that not everyone has the small herd like I have and not everyone can have their goats as pets and I don't judge others on their ways... I have my feelings on bottle feeding and know that it just would not be an option for me or my girls.

*** I don't think that the original question "Do you dam raise or bottle raise your kids?" was asking for reasons or even debate, it was a simple question that really only required a simple answer***********

Keep it Friendly and Fun


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

No goats (or animals in general for that matter) don't have a mind like we humans do. But they do have emotions. Riley, I'm not saying your wrong in any way and I don't want to offend you. But you also have to think most of your goats were bottle raised as kids so they never got the mother goat care so they don't know what it is.. (yes they have instincs (sp?) that would take over but not the point I'm aiming for here) so it wouldn't be as hard on them.. 

No they don't know that after their little date with a buck that they are bred but once they can feel kids and other things that happen they know.. They don't just protect themselves for no reason or talk to their belly for the fun of it.. They DO know.. That is (again) just my :2cents:


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

Skyla, only one of my remaining does was dam raised, so that probably does affect their mothering instinks. I think that after a couple of generations of bottle raising the instinks for raising kids are bred out, which in my case isn't a bad thing..


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Yes a good thing for you  but one thing I don't like about it.. Say you sold a kid to someone who dam raises.. What are they gonna do? If it were me.. I may not buy a bottle baby.. If it can't raise it's own kids then we would have to sell it.. No one in my family like bottle babies and it works better for us not to have them.. It works for some and not for others.. But that is one thing I am really not a fan of..


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Actually, from a strictly scientific viewpoint, ALL does, d or b, know. Why? Hormones. Hormones drive labor, the urge to baby talk their bellies, and care for their kids. Bottle-feeding will never take that away. It doesn't mean it's cruel, or even traumatic-bottle fed animals seem to just accept it and not care. However, don't think even for a second that those hormones aren't telling that doe she's pregnant. Maybe they can't articulate it in a way humans understand, but it's there. Even an animal living in the moment (as most seem to do) are capable of knowing they're pregnant, whether we humans choose to accept it or not. Even if you don't believe it's an emotional response, the science is there.

As for whether does deserve their kids or not-personally, they did the work, not me. They deserve what works best for THEIR situation, nothing less.


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

I know this sounds rather harsh, but that's their problem if the does wont raise their kids. Don't buy a goat from us if you don't want that risk.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

JaLyn asked a simple question.... PLEASE keep to the topic.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Sorry Liz, I didn't see your edit until after my last post.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

lol, always fun when this topic comes up ...


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Hugs now? :laugh:

:grouphug:


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Hugs!! :grouphug:


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

liz said:


> Everyone has a way they do things that works for them... wether it be kid rearing or general herd management.
> 
> My goats have a purpose... they are my pets first and the milk is very much wanted and those babies that arrive to make the milk aspect possible are every bit pets as their parents and aunts, I totally enjoy milking my does but I also like to be able to just watch how they mother their kids and the looks of frustration on my girls faces when those kids just won't listen when called... and I've also seen what appeared to be panic in my one mama's eyes when she called and called and her kids were not answering or in her sight.
> I totally understand that not everyone has the small herd like I have and not everyone can have their goats as pets and I don't judge others on their ways... I have my feelings on bottle feeding and know that it just would not be an option for me or my girls.
> ...


Thank you!! I had no idea it'd turn into this or I wouldn't of asked my question, I thought this would be a fun thread. Well it's not fun anymore.

Coffee anyone? One big group hug. I think we all do what's right because we all are raising happy healthy animals that we love and we are doing our part in getting back to the land..Now everyone kiss and make-up :hugs:


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## Goat Luvr (May 3, 2012)

Lost Prairie said:


> I know this sounds rather harsh, but that's their problem if the does wont raise their kids. Don't buy a goat from us if you don't want that risk.


Really??? WOW! 

Anyway....... :grouphug:

:laugh:


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Goat Luvr said:


> Really??? WOW!


Yeah that's kind of my reaction as well..


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## Maggie (Nov 5, 2010)

All of ours are dam raised. We have boers and obviously don't milk them (except for a few after weaning). Our kids are incredibly friendly, if you go out in our pasture you are going to have kids climbing all over you. We have one doe that extremely nutso that I haven't been able to tame and her doeling from last year is one of our friendliest. 
We have had to bottle feed kids but left them with their dam. The only kids we ever had to pull from their dam out of necesity were no friendly than the rest of our kids. Their mom never even got to lick her kids and still moarned for weeks and was very very sick. I have never seen any of my does that stressed out after weaning, however the kids really knew no better and didn't have any stress. 
I would have no problem pulling kids from multiples if needed. In fact I have a couple I already plan to pull kids if they have triplets. I don't like two teated does raising more than two kids. Theres not enough dinner plates for them and one kids always seems to lag behind in growth unless you have one outstanding mom that knows to rotate the kids at feeding.


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

keren said:


> lol, always fun when this topic comes up ...


Yes, this subject can get very heated. No one wants to hear anyone else say they are raising their goat wrong. I totally understand. We all love them so much. But, somethings just work for some people! Dam raising won't work for me, I've tried it!! But, it may be a dream for someone else!

Also, you can almost always take a new bottle baby and teach her to raise her own kids. What I meant by saying my does won't do it is that you can't take a bottle raised doe who has freshened five times and never raised a kid, to the next time leave them with her and have her know what to do to raise them.

EACH TO THEIR OWN!!! You know what works best for you!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

milkmaid10 said:


> Yes, this subject can get very heated. No one wants to here anyone else say they are raising their goat wrong. I totally understand. We all love them so much. But, somethings just work for some people! Dam raising won't work for me, I've tried it!! But, it may be a dream for someone else!
> 
> Also, you can almost always take a new bottle baby and teach her to raise her own kids. What I meant by saying my does won't do it is that you can't take a bottle raised doe who has freshened five times and never raised a kid, to the next time leave them with her and have her know what to do to raise them.
> 
> EACH TO THEIR OWN!!! You know what works best for you!


I couldn't agree more with what you said. Just because bottle raising isn't for me, doesn't mean it's not perfect for someone else! There's really not a right or wrong here, we all do what we feel is best for us and our goaties. At the end of the day, all our goats are loved.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

This is a good topic. There shouldnt be a reason for it to have gotten to the point of harshness. We have friends that only bottle raise as they are dairy. She never would feel the need to try to defend why she does what she does. Whenever someone tries to defend what they do by putting down others... it can get to be a bit snappy in wording. This is good practice for us all to learn how to talk without our expressions ...but we do only have our keyboards here to express ourselves and that is, in this generation, something that seems to quickly put us into a bold word only defense. We say things boldly on here quickly that we could not speak out loud in person. This is a good topic and we can all learn from each other. There are two opposite ways of raising goats so of course there will be some differences. The interesting thing to me that I've learned is that bottle feeders (at least on this thread) who do this are not as in touch emotionally with their animals as the dam-raised animal owners and I would think it would be the opposite.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Pack but the topic was do you bottle or dam raise. Not why. I can show you a thousand pictures of me with my goats and you wouldn't feel the way you do. I love my goats absolutely 100% love them and i'm very emotionally attached to them. I cried when my doe gave birth because she cried. You are picking what a FEW on here have said and grouping us all into that category.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I think the real danger comes in when we start to generalize each other. We ALL love our goats very, very much here. :hug:

Sorry it turned out this way, JaLyn. :/


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## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

I actually think this thread has gone pretty well - there were a few testy moments but generally things have been ok, IMO. It should be good as long as we all stick to answering the original question, which was "do you dam-raise or bottle feed?" and even stating why you chose to do it whichever way you do it should be ok - but not when we use it as a way to "convert" others or say that another person's method is wrong or call their management decisions into question. No one is more qualified to make decisions about a herd than the herder himself.


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

All my does are 2 x 2 and I hope I don't have to bottle fed. But, if I have to, so be it.

I have also seen some people who were interested in bottle boer does for show. If I were set up for it, I would do it, if they sold for a premium that justified the time and expense. It's a livestock business choice for me. I've learned some interesting things from this thread that have given me some ideas. 

I am very interested in seeing Kerens bulk milk feeder.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

so what we were supposed to say was a simple. (Yes, I dam raise..) So what is there to learn in a yes or no answer? Of course everyone wants to share their reasons.. of course they will. This is how forums work.. no one just gives a simple.. (Yes..) we all like to share what we do.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Merry,
That would be great if it would of been kept i bottle raise because or i dam raise because but it was turned into something totally dif. Thats what is so upsetting. I hate to see the ones criticizing others. IDK this thread is upsetting so i'm jsut gonna leave it to ya'all..I don't like dealing with such negativity.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

JaLyn, please dont feel bad, I think this has been a really good thread and I think for the most part it has been a very constructive debate. I've enjoyed it.

Maggie, I agree with you on not liking two teated does rearing more than two. I've seen too many end up with bitten sore udders from three kids fighting over two teats and then because they are sore they dont want to feed any of them.



packhillboers said:


> bottle feeders (at least on this thread) who do this are not as in touch emotionally with their animals as the dam-raised animal owners and I would think it would be the opposite.


I do think this is a bit much though, and to be honest its the only time through this whole thread that I as a bottle raiser have felt a bit offended. We ALL love our goats no matter how we raise them.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Thank you Keren!!


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I agree! Don't feel bad, i too enjoyed it a bit! 


I agree that we all love our goats, though we show it in different ways. Us who dam raise see the bond between goats, and we really enjoy it. Others who bottle raise my really enjoy the bond they form with that kid. I know I did with our bottle kid bottle raised from birth  We all show our love for our animals in different ways and we all like and enjoy different things


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> I agree that we all love our goats, though we show it in different ways. Us who dam raise see the bond between goats, and we really enjoy it. Others who bottle raise my really enjoy the bond they form with that kid. I know I did with our bottle kid bottle raised from birth  We all show our love for our animals in different ways and we all like and enjoy different things


Right! I caught a glimpse of what raising a "bottle baby" feels like through Patti. Her mommy was the bottle baby, and while a good mom, Patti wanted more love than what Gypsy could give her. So, I ended up being her momma. She still nursed from Gypsy, but I was definitely the full-time momma :laugh: She is my special baby, and is never, ever leaving.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Now I remember why i just love you guys...


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> I agree! Don't feel bad, i too enjoyed it a bit!
> 
> I agree that we all love our goats, though we show it in different ways. Us who dam raise see the bond between goats, and we really enjoy it. Others who bottle raise my really enjoy the bond they form with that kid. I know I did with our bottle kid bottle raised from birth  We all show our love for our animals in different ways and we all like and enjoy different things


Even as a bottle raiser, I also see the bond between mum and baby, and I love it and treasure it. Nothing warms my heart more than hearing that little murmur that they only do just before and just after kidding. Makes my heart flutter. I love the ways their bonds stay tight and they will sleep together even when the kids grow up. Thats one of the reasons my kids, even though bottle fed, stay with the herd, so my mummas can keep mothering them.

I do know that I am not exactly the typical bottle feeder though lol

Oh, for whoever it was who wanted to see my bulk feeder, I will post photos etc in a different thread, probably not today or tomorrow though, I've got our work christmas party today then gotta rush home to wash goats for a show tomorrow. So bear with me, I will post it eventually


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Oh.. golly.. I didnt say no one loved their goats.. but I read from several of the bottle feeders on this thread that people put too much emotions into their animals ..and also it was said that ... the mamma has no idea that she has babies in her.. oh.. there were several things said that made me realize that some on this thread don't see their animals with the emotions that others of us do in fact see. Come on.. lets be fair here. I am so done with this.. I am not going to let goat spot be controlled by one- sided opinions.. I just tried to keep it in balance. Lets start a new thread.


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

People who bottle feed are a special kind of person. I can't do it. I don't have the patience and I'm lazy. People who bottle feed are devoting around the clock attention to their babies. There are some does that won't even devote that much attention or take as good of care as people moms.


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## maple hill farm tina (Mar 14, 2010)

We dam raise unless there's some physical reason why the mom can't feed her own kid (really rough labor, quads or quints, etc). We also weed out goats that don't have that "good mom instinct" or have difficulty with natural kidding. I've also not been very happy with either of the two bottle-raised goats I bought in the past, so both were put up for sale within a year of getting them. They tended to lack the social skills of my other goats, they were sicklier, and they were picked on more often. Maybe it would be different in a herd that was comprised of ALL bottle-fed goats, but I could tell a big difference with those two. Anyway, that's just what works for our farm. It all depends on your personal philosophy and on your priority...


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

packhillboers said:


> Oh.. golly.. I didnt say no one loved their goats.. but I read from several of the bottle feeders on this thread that people put too much emotions into their animals ..and also it was said that ... the mamma has no idea that she has babies in her.. oh.. there were several things said that made me realize that some on this thread don't see their animals with the emotions that others of us do in fact see. Come on.. lets be fair here. I am so done with this.. I am not going to let goat spot be controlled by one- sided opinions.. I just tried to keep it in balance. Lets start a new thread.


Thanks for clarifying Merry, I see your thought process now, I just thought you were saying that ALL bottle feeding people were 'cold hearted'. I know thats not what you meant but its how I took it, sorry about that


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

maple hill farm tina said:


> They tended to lack the social skills of my other goats, they were sicklier, and they were picked on more often.


I think the skill of the bottle raiser makes a HUGE difference. I know there are many bottle fed kids (and calves and lambs) out there that arent raised very well. My kids dont turn out like you describe, but I am very experienced in hand rearing many animals.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

My biggest complaint about my bottle doe (the Dorsey nipubian if anyone remembers) is that I couldn't supplement the smallest buck. Not because he didn't want to, but because the minute she saw a red pritchard nipple, she would knock over anything and anyone to grab it. I had to fish it out of her mouth more than once. NOT fun. Funny, though.

The buck I used to have last year was a pushy, lovey lap goat who was so used to a bottle that I could have a syringe of Ivomec and he'd suck it right down. No holding him, forcing it in his mouth, nothing. He just granbed the end and went to town. Bad herd manners (especially with kids), but I think that was just his personality (another Dorsey-bred goat).


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

packhillboers said:


> so what we were supposed to say was a simple. (Yes, I dam raise..) So what is there to learn in a yes or no answer? Of course everyone wants to share their reasons.. of course they will. This is how forums work.. no one just gives a simple.. (Yes..) we all like to share what we do.


I should have posted a better way to answer instead of a "simple" one... I know that asking for a simple yes or no is just not possible when so many of us are so willing to elaborate on "simple" answers, Forgive me it was late and I was trying to "simply" difuse ruffled feathers for the sake of JaLyns feelings as I know that she did not intend for her topic to be the cause of conflict.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I have a question 
Has anybody let their doe raise her kidds but with supplemental feedings done by humans ? How would the kidds turn out ?


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Laura, I have a doe (or 2) that were combo, My little Mazie us one of them! She isn't as overly friendly as bottle babies and she is a lot like my dam raised kids.. And like I had said I had a few this year that when momma was sick they were on a bottle.. I still see those kids and they aregreat and a lot like Maze


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Thanks Skyla  I was almost afraid to ask ,lolol.
I just read this thread for the first time and felt bad that some feelings may have been hurt. We are a great group and may disagree at times , but in the end , the goats our goats are well taken care of , loved and basically the center of our universe


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## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

Reading through this thread has really made me hope that my plan works well because I agree with people/points on both sides of this discussion, so I hope that I can take what I think is the good from both sides and combine them into something that really works for me.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Your welcome Laura  

Linz, you'll find what works best for you! Hope your plan/what you have in mind works well!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

You said it Linz  Im praying I will know what the heck Im doing by that time , lololol.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Actually I plan to suppliment with a bottle at some point (so that they nurse from their dam but still take a bottle), just so I can have the freedom to take the mommas to a show while the babies are young. That way the poor little things don't starve :laugh: Just an idea, I guess, but I know a lot of people do it.


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## Engebretsen (May 16, 2012)

A little worried about weighing in here... but I'll do it anyway.

I've not raised any goats. Our one doe that was bred last year gave birth to mummified babies. I cried for days. After the babies came out, her heart seemed a lot lighter. I think she knew there were babies, and I think she knew they didn't make it. Bringing her into milk and spending that one on one time every day with my doe, though--that was a priceless and healing experience for the both of us.

I'm still pretty new to goats, and all of my goats have been bottle raised exclusively except for my newest addition, who was dam-raised for the first couple of weeks and then bottle-raised after that. I LOVE how social my goats are. I love the way they love us. I know that dam-raised kids can be sweet, but around here, dam-raised kids are almost always goats that have not been properly socialized. In my opinion, when someone bottle-raises a baby and gives it lots of attention, it doesn't form a better bond, but I think it might be an easier bond to form because we all bond through food :-D I think in addition to what that does with the relationship with the kid, though--absolutely when a mama gives birth she has raging hormones and needs someone to love and bond with--when we milk our dairy does, that builds a pretty special bond too... and that's something that I can appreciate. Is it selfish? Probably. But they're my pets as much as they're livestock and I want all these animals to rely on their bond with me to have their needs met.

I plan to bottle raise my kids, but I also plan to make sure no kid is raised alone, and I plan to have my kids be part of the herd from a young age so that they CAN learn good manners from the older goats. I'm hoping that the experience ends up giving me the best of both worlds--lap goats with great goat manners. Who knows, though?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Trickyroo said:


> I have a question
> Has anybody let their doe raise her kidds but with supplemental feedings done by humans ? How would the kidds turn out ?


I have the smallest doeling of the quads Penny had in March here and I supplemented but left her with mom and siblings....she's a very sweet girl and is as friendly as the rest who weren't bottlefed


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Packhill. I think we both may have upset each other which wasn't my intention. I am not always good with words so i'm hoping I come across to you as sincere as i'm meaning to. I do beleive ALL animals have feelings when I said we as humans put human thoughts in their head i was referring to yes they do take it hard but not like us humans would. meaning eventually they do forget and go on as t where us humans would never forget. I tried to post a video of me with my goats because it bothers me that you think I am not connected to them. I'm so very connected and in love with my goats. Either way I'd like to call a truce.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Yay . Ok let's all go goating :grouphug:

FRIENDS. :hugs::cheers::hi5:


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

> I have a question
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trickyroo, YES! I have a doeling that was raised on both her dam and the bottle (it was necessary, or I never would have done it!) She is awesome - so friendly and cute, but not the least bit pushy! I never have to discipline her, and she never runs from me. Best of both worlds, IMO.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Hmm I may just have to start supplimenting. The mommas still get to raise their babies, but I still can feed them when the mommas are away, or possibly sell them on the bottle. Definately worth consideration.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

That is what I am thinking about doing when I have babies 
I would like to see them with their mommas but want them to be very loving towards humans as well. So I just wanted to test the waters and see if anybody has done this and were they happy with the resulting kidds. 

I know some dog breeders who do this with their litters , and end up with great results. 

Thanks guys


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I would love to see babies with their mamas but me bottle feed instead of them nursing. I wonder if thats possible?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Oh I'm not worried about them being friendly, haha! Because we have a small herd, the moment you step inside the pen you are smothered with goatie kisses :laugh:

JaLyn -- I think someone else on this thread says that she does that. You could try taping the teats so that they can't nurse, and teaching them the bottle is where they get their food. What we do is when the babies are 2 weeks, we separate at night, milk in the morning, and let the babies have all the milk during the day. If you didn't want the babies getting any of momma's milk, you could teat tape after milking and let the babies and mommas be together during the day.


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

Several years ago we tried leaving kids with mom and supplementing with a bottle and it was an absolute nightmare!!!!!


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I do what woodhaven just said. Works for us.. but with my does that I will be taking to shows and what not I would like to know I can get the kids on a bottle if I have too... I want to start going farther to shows.. maybe some two day ones... I would leave the kids home with my 'baby sitter does' and have them on a bottle while I was gone but still be on momma the rest of the time.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Lost Prairie said:


> Several years ago we tried leaving kids with mom and supplementing with a bottle and it was an absolute nightmare!!!!!


Explain please ?


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

They wouldn't take the bottle since it is different than momma's teat, and when I tried separating them so they'd get hungry enough all I had was screaming does and upset babies that refused to take the bottle...The does wouldn't let me milk them either, because they wanted their kids to have the milk...


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Pennys quads were around a week old when I started supplementing Foxy and her brother Taz, they got milk from my other girl who had twins in their bottles, only 3-4 ounces 3x a day for a few days then I started to up the amounts as they got older, they still nursed from Penny when they could, their 2 bigger sisters were usually quicker to grab the teats though. 
I actually sent Taz to his new home at 10 weeks old with his bubby and a quart of milk to help his new mama bond with him as well as wean him gradually and get used to his new home.
Foxy remained here and because she was so little compared to her siblings, I left her with her mama while I continued to milk 2x a day, she got to nurse what she wanted until she was 4 months old...at that time I simply used cloth athletic tape on Penny's teats, Foxy would duck under her mama but Penny would walk away, after a few days Foxy just quit trying and I'm glad I did allow her to nurse as long as she did because at this point, just a week shy of 9 months old she now weighs 55lbs 

She's not seeing me as her food source, not an "in my back pocket" goatie and she's just as friendly as any of my other 9 who were not bottle fed


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I don't think I would have trouble supplementing with a bottle -- since our herd gets dewormed herbally, we add molasses to the dewormer and they always go O MY GOSH, YUM when we try to shove anything down their throat now :laugh: They just had to realize it was tasty. Actually this past kidding we did give one of our does a bit of a bottle -- she wasn't nursing a whole lot so we shoved some colostrum down her and she was right as reign once she realized what we were trying to feed her was tasty :laugh:


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## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

JaLyn said:


> I would love to see babies with their mamas but me bottle feed instead of them nursing. I wonder if thats possible?


That's what I'm going to find out.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Linz, Let me know how it goes please.


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## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

Definitely! It'll be a little while - first kids of 2013 are due mid-Feb..!


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

That's fine, Bailey isn't due til march, emma in april if she settled and Miss Dot just went in with my buck. Thank you bunches!!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

So basically what I get from this is the babies will be friendly and love us humans even if they stay with momma and/or get bottle fed.
Its really the socialization they get in the very beginning and them seeing the other goats at ease with us as well , right ?


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## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

Pretty much. My dam raised babies can be real "in my pocket" brats and Charlotte still tries to climb in my lap when I sit down... Maddie has always been a bit more standoffish but she's still friendly.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Right Laura.  I think bottle babies are a little over the top "be with me all the time mommy!" to people LOL! But hey, people were their mommas  
My dam raised kids are supper friendly and lovable  my almost 2yr old doe still tries to climb in my lap sometimes  it just depends on the time you spend with them


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Yep! It's all about socialization. Bottle raising is an easy way to make sure they're friendly, but with friendly mommas and lots of love, well, let me just show you my dam-raised "bottle babies" hehe


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Patti sure has gotten big WHF! They are all adorable!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> Patti sure has gotten big WHF! They are all adorable!


I know! We call her Muffins now because she's so fluffed up! :laugh:


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Hehe! Too cute!! Just the other day I looked out and realized how much my little fluff balls have gotten! 2 of them will be 2 in april/may and Mazie is gonna be a whole year in feb! she is still a tiny little thing! And oh so sweet!  They just grow up so fast! :laugh:


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I love it that mine are in your face goaties..thats what i love about em. But i do beleive that dam raised and bottle raised will be how you treat them. If your affectionate with them..they will be with you..My emma was dam raised so when i got her she wasn't overly friendly not because she was dam raised but because she didn't get much human interaction..i got her when she was 3 and a half months old..now she is all over me just like the rest.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I agree with you JaLyn! I know someone who dam raises but doesn't spend much time with the kids and when you walk into the pen they all split! LOL! even the yearlings were like that! (wasn't too fun trying to catch them to trim feet!) her Sr. does weren't bad, but I think that milking plays a part in that...


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Yeah, it's sad to go to some farms and be like, "HI BABIES!" and they run from you like you're a monster :laugh: I so was not used to it. Here, you go, "HI BABIES!" And you are tackled and eaten alive.

And never heard from again.

Jk


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

LOL!! Too funny WHF!

But agreed... The worst part is this lady has kids... and they still don't spend enough time with the kids to make it so you don't have to trap them into a corner to catch them to trim feet or something... I have seen a big change with a goat someone I know got from her.. her daughter spends all the time she can with them and they are great! Not what they were lat time I saw them!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Yep, that's the nice thing, with some extra love those shy babies turn around beautifully.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Oh it's true, when i first got emma it broke my heart to see the fear in her eyes, it wasn't that the previous owner was mean she just was a young girl that had alot of goats plus horses and donkeys and she pretty much is the one that fed and cared for them all plus she had school and a job so obviously she only had so much time. What i did is i would go sit in her pen, i never approached her i would just sit there and play with my other goat and little by little she became curious and came to me and thats all it took. i discovered early on with goats you will get alot further with them giving them their space and allow them to come to you. I realized by me sitting in her pen she realized i wasn't going to hurt her so she began to trust me..now i can do anything i want to her.


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