# sunflower seeds



## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

I keep seeing that people feed sunflower seeds to their goats. So...I went and bought some and started adding them to my goats' feed. Then I decided to look up the nutritional value of sunflower seeds and saw that they are high in phosphorus and panicked! Won't the sunflower seeds mess up the calcium to phosphorus ratio? How do you figure out how much you can safely give? Should I only give it to my does when the little boys are separated from them?

Over the past 9 years, we have lost 3 younger than yearling goats to UC. Only one of those had been wethered. I am always fearful that it will happen again.


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

This is the mix I feed my pygmies - My breeder recommended it.
2 gallons noble goat medicated (has ammonia chloride)
1 gallon barley
1/2 gallon sunflower seeds
1/2 gallon beet pulp
It has worked well for my guys. I know some do not recommend beet pulp but in small amounts as above it has never been a problem. My breeder that I have bought from has raised and shown pygmies for years.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Make sure it is black oil sunflower seeds. You not only have to worry about the phosphorus but also about the oil coating the intestines which will result in poor absorption. They should be getting minimal BOSS. A full size goat really shouldn't get more than a quarter cup and I personally would consider that to be too much.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

They are super high in phosphorus and this is why I won't feed it unless I have a goat very down on their weight, even then I still won't give it to a buck. You can also look into adding a small amount of oil. I think most people use olive oil or corn oil. BOSS is high in fat and oil which is why people use it, add weight and make them shine, and a tiny bit of oil (I do mean a tiny) will do the same thing


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, don't feed it unless the goat needs it.

When fed, just feed a small amount, like a hand full or so mixed with their grain.


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

I will wait until I get all the little boys out of the does' pen. I guess I'll add it to the girls' feed sparingly until the bag is gone. Would it be good for any of the other livestock or chickens?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can use it. Just use it sparingly.


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I feed free choice alfalfa, so I don't worry so much about adding a little BOSS. My herd does well on it.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Goat Forum mobile app


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

No need to waste it, just feed it a little at a time. 
Goats do love them.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I like giving it as treats for that goats. I had bought a bunch to mix with oats and barley for when I was going to milk (ended up not).

So now between the goats and the chickens its a treat.


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## Northwoods-Farm (Sep 30, 2016)

From the commercial dairy I got my first goats from:
200# whole corn (non-GMO)
80# oats (non-GMO)
100# sunflower, black oilers
100# soybean (non-GMO)
50# flax seed
80# barley
mix and top dress with molasses. 

Serving: no more than 2 cups in the milk stand and not more than 1 cup per pound of milk given after evening milking. Ensure goats (bucks and does) have access to fresh hay (2nd cutting ONLY), loose minerals, baking soda and fresh water at all times.

Haven't had a problem yet.

*EDIT: I get my feed from a local Amish store that can and will verify all grains are non-GMO as well as pesticide free, and I get my hay from a local who willingly refuses to add fertilizer or insecticide....costs me a touch more, but having all natural feed does wonders for the milk!


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

Thank you I should have clarified that it is black oil sunflower seeds. I tell you since I started on the above mix - I have noticed better coats, my bucks are doing better keeping nice body weight and so are my nursing does. I have not had a problem. I do think the pygmies and Nigerian dwarfs, which is what I have, seem to require caution on everything. I always thought goats were pretty hardy animals until I actually got some.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I feed BOSS during the winter when it's cold. During that time they also get alfalfa pellets and soaked beet pulp with their 1/4 cup of BOSS. Even the boys get it. Haven't had any issues because it is balanced for calcium/phosphorus.

I would be scared to death to feed that grain Northwoods Farm posted, everything in it is high in phosphorus and low in calcium. 

Baking soda is not needed and can be harmful when used daily like that. It neutralizes the urine so the bucks can grow urinary crystals. It also replaces the salt goat eat loose minerals for, so they don't get the full amount of minerals they need.


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

Thanks for all of the suggestions! I was really scared that I had messed up and had a boy with UC again. I have been watching one for several days and could not catch him going. But I finally caught him going today and it was a good stream!! I worry so much when we have young goats!


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## Northwoods-Farm (Sep 30, 2016)

lottsagoats1 said:


> I would be scared to death to feed that grain Northwoods Farm posted, everything in it is* high in phosphorus* and low in calcium.


You know, this is why I don't post here a lot. lottsagoats1, your information is quite faulty. From Merck Manuals, in their Veterinary Manual under Nutritional Requirements for goats:



Veterinary Manual said:


> *Phosphorus* deficiency results in slowed growth, unthrifty appearance, and occasionally a depraved appetite. Goats can maintain milk production on phosphorus-deficient diets for several weeks by using phosphorus from body reserves, but during long periods of phosphorus deficiency, milk production was shown to decline by 60%. The calcium : phosphorus ratio should be maintained between 1:1 and 2:1, preferably 1.2-1.5:1 in goats because of their predisposition for urinary calculi. Phosphorus deficiency in grazing goats is more likely than a calcium deficiency. In cases of struvite calculi, the ratio should be maintained at 2:1.


Further, since you are unaware of your simple chemistry, I will attempt to enlighten you: baking soda is NaHCO3, a simple and extremely mild alkali. In an acquiesce solution, it will break down into Na(+) and HCO3(-). Na aka Sodium is a salt and cannot bind with another salt. In the presence of an acid, even a mild acid, it will break down into Na(+) H(+) CO3(--) The hydrogen will bond with free radical oxygen (O) in the acid to form water thus diluting the acid - it's as if you took a Tums tablet, same effect. The carbonate molecule, depending on the acid it is mixed with will breakdown further into free radical carbon and oxygen or into carbon dioxide (CO2) and an oxygen radical (this is the most typical breakdown of the carbonate molecule). The free radical oxygen will bond with the hydrogen, first, not another salt.

Acid detergent fiber (ADF) is something else to consider. ADF is a laboratory analysis that measures the cellulose and lignin levels in plants, and lignin is not digestible, so an acid detergent fiber measure that is low - below 35% - is preferable for goats. Grass hays with low ADF must be cut early, while the leaves are immature and the stems are very small. As a general rule, stemmier hays have less nutritional value than leafy hays.

According to Denis Bastianelli, PhD. - Cirad - La recherche agronomique pour le développement, crude fiber (CF) and ADF are basically on a 1:1 ratio for value. Since typical beet pulp is registered at 18.2%, that gives them basically an 18.2 ADF value. Depending on the hay you are feeding, you could be pushing the ADF value of your feed for your goats well over the recommended 28% if you're feeding anything OTHER than PRIME hay.

According to the research posted by Tennessee Meat Goats:


Tennessee Meat Goats said:


> The rumen tends towards a slightly acidic level (6.8 pH). When saliva mixes with the cud, "buffers" in the saliva help keep rumen acidity down. Rumen micro-organisms work best in a neutral to slightly-acidic environment. When the producer feeds the goat sugars, starches, and other rapidly-digested feeds (grain-based feeds), the rumen becomes more acidic. Introducing long fiber into the rumen helps minimize this acidic effect by the longer chewing time that is necessary to break down and digest the fibrous materials. The longer fibrous material has to be re-chewed, therefore remains in the rumen longer -- adding to this buffering effect. This nutritional balance is critical to the good health of the goat.


Now, based on the feeding schedule I use, the research of experts, and simple chemistry, I would find it very hard to follow the feeding schedule you use. Alfalfa pellets and soaked beet pulp? The level of acid your goats have to deal with must be incredible. Before you criticize what someone else feeds, please make sure you have your facts straight.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Baking soda is a sodium. Goats, like most grazers, crave salt. That is why they mix minerals in with sodium chloride, to get the goats to consume the minerals. Most goats will not eat just the minerals with no added salt. If you put baking soda out free choice, most goats will eat that for their salt intake and not get the minerals they need from the salt/loose minerals. The soil in most parts of this country are sadly lacking in various minerals which is why we need to feed out livestock minerals, either loose for those with soft tongues like goats, or blocks.

The baking soda craze in goats started several years ago due to the feeding of it to dairy cattle. Dairy cattle get a huge amount of grain, more so than dairy goats on a pound to pound basis. Dairy cattle are not bred for longevity, most goats are, so they tend to "burn out" cattle way before their natural lives would end. Dairy cattle eat a very highly acidic diet and need that baking soda daily. Unless you are feeding a goat an enormous amount of grain/concentrates with minimal hay they should not need buffering, since long stem hay is a natural buffer. Some people feed a meat grower/finisher as a complete feed so the animals will have a sleeker look for show, which may cause problems with UC. You need acidic urine to dissolve the crystals, that's why they add ammonia chloride to a lot of goat feeds, especially meat goat grower/finishers. Those rumens must be hugely acidic because there is no buffering. I know show people who do have issues with acidosis in their show wethers.

The calcium/phosphorus ratio in cereal grains is very off balanced. They have found that adult goats need a 2:1 ratio on average. Bucks do better with it a bit higher, as would a lactating doe.

ca: ph
Corn- .03: .33
oats- .06: .33
barley- .06: .36
soy 
beans- .2: .65
flax - 428 mg vs. 1079 mg per serving

That's a high phosphorus with a low calcium ratio in that feed. If you're lucky enough to live someplace where high calcium roughage is common (I'm not), and the hay is tested to show the calcium level, that's great, you can make up the balance but if you don't, that's scary.

I've had dairy goats for 35 years, also ran and then owned a cattle dairy for several years. I had 4 years of animal science with an emphasis on nutrition and I work with my vet, who did extra schooling in livestock and equine nutrition. In all those years, (and I keep my milking does until they die from old age or are killed by a local kid who burned my barn) I can count on 1 hand the number of animals that had an issue like "milk fever" (1), ketosis (1), bloat (2 kids) or urinary calculi (never). They are healthy, thriving and I have buyers who comment on how great my goats look and how healthy they are. I haven't had to have a vet here for illnesses in the goats in 30 years.


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

Lottsagoats, I am feeding my goats half alfalfa pellets and half commercial goat medicated feed. They each get about 2 pounds a day of that mixture plus free grazing. Of course the nursing moms get more than two pounds a day, and I have Calf Manna mixed with the alfalfa and goat feed for the two month old kids. They seem to be doing really well on it (if we could just get rid of worms). Does that sound well-balanced? Our water has never been tested, but it smells like sulfur. I think that messes with our mineral balances. Somehow we have lost three boys to UC through the years. That is why I panicked when I saw that the sunflower seeds were high in phosphorus.


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## Northwoods-Farm (Sep 30, 2016)

And, my friends, is why I typically do not respond on forums. Lottsagots, you just proved my point. You wanted to start a pissing match because you don't agree with the feed I choose to give my goats. So, without any formation, you indirectly accused me of dangerous feeding habits for my animals. When I presented you with the *FACTS *regarding the need for phosphorus in a diet, the only thing you had to say was, SEE! there's more phosphorus in the grains than there is calcium!

How about you feed your goats what you think is proper, and I'll feed my goats what I think is proper. Your "_schooling_" doesn't count for a damned thing, especially when anyone considers the fact that any and all centers of indoctrination, I mean higher learning, (especially those that deal with health of anything) are funded and controlled by either big pharmaceutical companies, big chemical companies or big agricultural companies. It doesn't matter one whit whom you work with, or that the person you work with got any sort of corporate based indoctrination. Try simple science. I already pointed out to you that baking soda is sodium. What do you think NaC03 means? I even spelled it out for you, but that's irrelevant.

Since you have absolutely no clue what we do here at Northwoods, how about you keep your opinions of us and our actions here to yourself, and we'll make sure not to point out the lunacy of the things you say.


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

...never mind, I'll stick with what I feed...


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

NorthWoods-Farms, I am interested in feeding my goats which are Nubians a balanced feed. I will tell you what I feed and would appreciate your take and response. Would you be willing to take the time to do so. If so reply and we can move this discussion to another post. Thanks in advance.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

Gee, and I thought horse people were touchy.


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

I have always said if you ask breeders 10 questions probably none will follow the exact same procedures, feeding guidelines etc. I do not believe when someone post their regime and someone else then disagrees that it has to degenerate into a "............match". We are all adults. We should not take things personal and let egos rule. As long as we are respectable then the forum works. How else can we learn unless we get different opinions. We all live in different areas and have slightly different needs. I try to take what makes sense to me and ignore the rest unless I have a question and we should all feel free to post our questions and differences without feeling attacked. I learned from both post.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sorry this thread was missed.

OK, we need to keep it friendly, keep it fun.

If anyone doesn't agree with one's views or opinions, that is your choice. But we cannot keep arguing the point, if we cannot agree on something.
We have stepped over that unfriendly line.









We do have to be careful how we feed, the 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio is important.
Here is a good read:
https://www.tractorsupply.com/know-...other_goat_nutritional-requirements-for-goats


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

Well this has been interesting. A classic example of "ask 100 goat people a question, you'll get 100 different answers; all of which are valid."


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

jschies said:


> ...never mind, I'll stick with what I feed...


Don't let anyone make you frustrated! I'm getting older every day and I have learned the best thing to do is ignore things. 
You asked a question and I didn't see that it got answered, I am not great with nutrition but I can do math and look at tags  
Everything you listed on your question look at the tag and there SHOULD be a break down of what it comes out to. Look at the calcium and phosphorous. So let's say here you are feeding 50% alfalfa pellets and 50% of the medicated grain (it needs to be in weight not measurement) then you get the calcium of both and add together and divid by 2, then do the same with phosphorus and that will give you what oh have going on. You add the calf manna in as well so you will need to figure that as well. If you would like if you give me weights on all you feed and what the tags say I can help you threw it......probably be more helpful then coming up with odd ball numbers and giving you examples lol
I know you are worried about UC, and I don't blame you! Another option you have is to add ammonia choline as a prevention. You will still want to get as close as you can to the correct ratio but since that is not 100% possible unless you test EVERYTHING, hay, grass, anything that goes into them it is a added 'safety' if you will. I believe that is one teaspoon a day but if you go this way double check (I'm slowly loosing my mind  )


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## Oreosmom (Nov 19, 2016)

Again, I am certain you all are crazy!! And though I couldn't understand all the tech aspects, (I skipped over most of it) I'm reasonable sure you're both doing your best for your herd. What works for one, may just not work for another. At that point it's just ok to agree not to agree. Like my feeding schedule. Laugh if you like I'm telling the truth! Keeping in mind this is for 2 little goats. 8:am fill alfalfa containers, 1 cup of goat oats and a cup of pellets.Noon: treat plate. 1/2 apple cut in 1/2 in pieces, 6 trisket crunched up, 1/4 cup salted or lime/chili peanuts, a handful of the bottom of the bag tortilla or corn chips, a small handful of BOSS and calf manna (handful=1/4 cup or less) and one paper plate. Feta runs off with the plate when I try to get it.
Noon to 6: the goats get refill on oats and pellets whenever they cry and tell us it's empty. Checking feeder at least once to top off the alfalfa. 6m no more oats, pellets and hay and grazing. Yes, they actually graze some!!! Lol, no more oats till am as the mice attack the oats like a scene out of Willard . Tha oats and pellets are actually in a bin right inside the sliding glass doors. So no oats at night is a must. The mice don't seem to care for alfalfa or pellets. 10: top off alfalfa, make sure theres at least a cup of pellets to last until morning.They have loose minerals all the time but seem to like the salt block just as much. 
There are little treats too peanuts in shell, saltines, tortilla chips, anything that crunches.They like flat soda, correction..Feta likes bubbles, a lick or two in my Palm makes her sneeze and shake her head, but she wants it whenever she sees it, always the same reaction. I'm thinking it's more about the ice then soda. But, yea my goats are spoiled, getting fat and happy. I thought goats were supposed to be excaped artists, mine don't even try. They actually get nervous and vocal when a gate was left open instead of checking it out they let us know something was different. Poor babies!!lol


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## Honsby (Jun 26, 2017)

Let's all consider the fact that the different breeds are genetically predisposed to whatever particular biome they evolved from. Therefore a 'desert' variety will definitely have a different nutritional requirement than those from a more 'tropical' area.

So, any argument is superfluous, really. Plus, no matter what we choose to offer them, it will be the wrong thing...


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## Oreosmom (Nov 19, 2016)

AMEN!!! LOL:7up::cow::mrgoat:


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Oreosmom said:


> Again, I am certain you all are crazy!! And though I couldn't understand all the tech aspects, (I skipped over most of it) I'm reasonable sure you're both doing your best for your herd. What works for one, may just not work for another. At that point it's just ok to agree not to agree. Like my feeding schedule. Laugh if you like I'm telling the truth! Keeping in mind this is for 2 little goats. 8:am fill alfalfa containers, 1 cup of goat oats and a cup of pellets.Noon: treat plate. 1/2 apple cut in 1/2 in pieces, 6 trisket crunched up, 1/4 cup salted or lime/chili peanuts, a handful of the bottom of the bag tortilla or corn chips, a small handful of BOSS and calf manna (handful=1/4 cup or less) and one paper plate. Feta runs off with the plate when I try to get it.
> Noon to 6: the goats get refill on oats and pellets whenever they cry and tell us it's empty. Checking feeder at least once to top off the alfalfa. 6m no more oats, pellets and hay and grazing. Yes, they actually graze some!!! Lol, no more oats till am as the mice attack the oats like a scene out of Willard . Tha oats and pellets are actually in a bin right inside the sliding glass doors. So no oats at night is a must. The mice don't seem to care for alfalfa or pellets. 10: top off alfalfa, make sure theres at least a cup of pellets to last until morning.They have loose minerals all the time but seem to like the salt block just as much.
> There are little treats too peanuts in shell, saltines, tortilla chips, anything that crunches.They like flat soda, correction..Feta likes bubbles, a lick or two in my Palm makes her sneeze and shake her head, but she wants it whenever she sees it, always the same reaction. I'm thinking it's more about the ice then soda. But, yea my goats are spoiled, getting fat and happy. I thought goats were supposed to be excaped artists, mine don't even try. They actually get nervous and vocal when a gate was left open instead of checking it out they let us know something was different. Poor babies!!lol


Some days, reading what you post, I think I just want to be one of your goats. That is all.


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## Oreosmom (Nov 19, 2016)

New-goat-mom said:


> Some days, reading what you post, I think I just want to be one of your goats. That is all.


That's been said before except they wanted to be my dog. I guess I just treat my animals well, and enjoy the benefit of their love.


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