# Anti-Vegetarian essay



## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

for class I am writing an essay against going vegetarian to save animals. I was reading another essay that says vegetarians are healthier, save more animals, and that farming creates more pollution(trust me by the end of reading that I was about to put my head through a wall :brickwall . I cant find any articles that make claims for farming with good facts. Can anyone can add points or information about this? What will happen to the animals if everyone stopped eating meat? How does farming help the environment? If we were to stop farming what would be affected? What are the myths towards farming and how are these wrong? 
If you could help that would be great thank you :thumbup:


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## FreedomStarr (Oct 21, 2014)

It would be an interesting paper. I don't know if you can sugarcoat the mass meat farming we do these days. It is not environmentally friendly. On the flip side, tearing down forests for crops is also bad- but it does not reach the same level of bad when you have to consider that we need to plant the crops to sustain animal farming as well.

If everyone went vegan all of the domestic food animals would go away. There would be no use for them, beyond pets. 

My biggest beef (hahaha!) with vegan lifestyle I suppose is that we need carnivores/omnivores to keep herbivores population in check. I don't know how this fits in with human development as it is now, but we don't eat wild predators... And we are wiping them out one by one. Humans also have no use for large carnivores. 

I'm probably not much help, I just replied since I find it a very interesting topic. I don't see how it is a solution to any problem. The problem is there are just too many of us... Any path we follow that does not include decreasing human numbers will require destruction of species and land. Eating or not eating animals will only slightly change that impact. I have always been fascinated with homesteading, where I can remove myself from then equation by managing my own crops and animal products right from my own farm. That Is difficult though. Hoping maybe I at least brought up a good point for you to use! Sorry I'm not more help!!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Look up the problems with a vegan diet. We do need the protein from animals. Also the fact that we would have to do a mass kill of all farm animals. No way people can keep them as pets.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Having lived most of my life at elevations too high and in climates too cold for growing food crops (or even reliable vegetable gardens!), the very idea of going vegetarian (let alone vegan!) seems ridiculously unsustainable to me. Vegetarian and vegan diets are NOT environmentally friendly if you think about the shipping, refrigeration, preserving, etc. necessary to keep out-of-season and non-local foods on the table year-round. There's no reason whatever that we should be eating bananas and pineapples in the northern U.S., or fresh peaches and strawberries in winter, for example. If it weren't for the unnatural availability of many of these foods, vegetarian and especially vegan diets would be impossible.

Here is an excellent article on the subject: 
http://fieldquestions.com/2012/11/26/the-animal-lovers-dilemma/

It explains the dilemma perfectly and highlights why strictly vegetarian and vegan diets are not only unrealistic in much of the world, but are also not the answer to saving the planet. Large-scale industrial farming harms the environment whether the product is animal or plant. Keep in mind that raising food plants requires native vegetation to be plowed under, damaging topsoil and usually requiring more water than is naturally available. The prairies supported millions of bison before settlers came and plowed up the prairie grass to grow food crops. The Dust Bowl drought and famine was the direct result. Land that can support meat animals cannot necessarily support crop growth.

That said, I wouldn't use the term "anti-vegetarian".  There's nothing wrong with being a vegetarian, and it's important for all of us to be more mindful about the food we eat. Vegetarians and especially vegans have done quite a lot toward making society think about the messy reality of what happens at factory animal farms and forcing us all to consider the cost.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Personally I think this is one of those moot arguments. High unlikely that arguing one side or the other is going to convert the person(s) you are talking to. Either you are/do or you arent/dont.

I love animals  They are so tasty! OR If God didnt want us to eat pigs, he shouldnt of made em taste like bacon! (Couple of funny sayings


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

What would happen to the animals if everyone suddenly when vegetarian? They would die a slow, horrible death to starvation or they would all be shipped to the killers for pet food. Who is going to keep thousands of cattle, meat goats, meat sheep, chickens etc as pets? You can't turn them loose, so who's going to care for them? No one.

Land tilled up for vegetables kills local plant life and the smaller animals that live in the ground. Chemicals to kill weeds, fertilizer and other chemicals destroy the environment. More land would be tilled up to plant more veggies to support all the humans that are now not eating meat.

The wild life balance would be messed up if all the deer and other game animals were not kept in check because humans have killed off large amounts of natural predators needed to keep that many animals in check. These game animals would end up starving to death because of over population and destroy the environment because there would be more animals than the land could support.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Thank you! Its good to hear other people's opinions


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

I read something that said in 1940 1 US farmer could feed 19 people, but today 1 farmer can feed 155 people. What do you think is the cause of this?


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Goatzrule said:


> I read something that said in 1940 1 US farmer could feed 19 people, but today 1 farmer can feed 155 people. What do you think is the cause of this?


Better irrigation, better equipment (plow and horse vs tractor), herbicides, pesticides, and GMO (seeds are now genetically engineered to be drought and insect resistance) all contribute to farmers being able to produce more food than ever before.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Thank you guys! this really helped. well now I guess I will be up the rest of the night writing


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Incidentally, the article I linked above was one of the things that helped me get through butchering our first goat two months ago. She was a pet and a friend, but she was diagnosed with CL and had also become dangerously mean to my pregnant does. There were several other reasons why putting her down was the best choice, and that article helped me come to terms with butchering her instead of burying her in the back forty. It is reassuring to know that _this_ animal had a wonderful, happy life right up to the end. I still eat pork and beef and chicken from the grocery store, but I would love to move toward eating more meat that I know is locally raised in a sustainable, environmentally responsible, and ethical manner.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I already see see some disinformation here. It's too bad that when slaughter facilities act bad, the farmers are blamed. Oh, and most of the videos everyone sees is an extreme...
There are good farmers and bad farmers, just like everyone else...

I always love the pus in the milk thing though. If pus actually got into a milk truck, it's a $90,000 fine for the dairy owner. 
BUT people always spell it as puss, like there's dead cats in the milk :lol:

Actually, most people should be on their knees thanking the farmers for providing the amount of food our population needs everyday, then again, what America throws in the garbage would feed a small country. 

The root of this problem isn't the farmers who do what they need to do. It's the wasteful and totally oblivious population. After all, you should buy your meat from Winco, where no animals were harmed making it.


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## SeventeenFarms (Dec 10, 2013)

I don’t think that vegetarianism is necessarily anti- farmer. There is a move to eat local and support your farmer, at least around here – every town has a farmers market, csa’s are popular, etc. I think there is backlash against the industrial farms (not farmer), whether it be meat or vegetables due to the gmos, pesticides, drugs, mal treatment of not only the animals but of the earth. I now grow very little (cant work a 60 hr/week job and run a csa), but those who I choose to grow for are those who want to know their farmer, and how their food is grown. I think that mindset includes animals as well as vegetables. For example, anyone who buys from me can come out and see – those who buy eggs can come hold the chickens and see how they are treated, or how the rows are weeded by hand.

There are activists against meat/ using animals, etc – peta, mercy for animals, etc. I think the best way to turn the tide is to treat animals well -give them a good life, good care, and not let them suffer. Harvesting an animal that has had a good life is not wrong.

I am not against vegetarianism. It’s a life choice. But its also a choice how we raise our food and I think that as a society dependent on mass production and un sustainable practices, we have messed it all up – whether it be raising greens or meat. Eat what you want, but work towards the sustainable, and work towards leaving the smallest footprint you can.

Guess that isn’t much help with your essay, but my two cents on the argument – it goes both ways for me. I’d like to see your essay if you would share it, as I would like to read what you have to say. I think you have chosen a good subject that already has begun a discussion – and so, you’ve already made a difference!


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## Steampunked (Mar 23, 2015)

I'm not against vegetarianism at all - at the very least, there are some people with terrible allergies which means that they must avoid a lot of normal proteins and derive them from vegetable sources.

However, there are some serious problems with eating vegetarian and consuming large amounts of grains. Anyone who produces grains kills vast numbers of rodents, small birds, and insects of various kinds. Even without the traps and anti-pest devices (and they are usually pretty terminal), harvesting kills a lot of animals. Often in pretty horrible ways - I don't fancy being run over by a combine harvester.

In many places in the world, you cannot grow human-consumable vegetation where you can grow animal-consumable vegetation. That means eating goats, sheep, or other creatures and using them as sunshine-converters.

But mostly, my view comes from seeing the amount of animal deaths coming out of the grain industry versus the grass-fed meat industry. I don't really believe that a rat is worth any 'less' than a cow - they may well have more complex language and intelligence, so it seems a bit wrong to think they're less just because we can't eat them.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It's interesting that you bring up the insects. I used to play in the wheat wagons as a child and the grasshoppers were insane. There is a certain amount of insect allowed in all foods. In chocolate, it's 7% :lol:
Funny thing is, there's barely any grasshoppers left here now...

Keep this nice people, think and double check please.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah, I'm out now but, check out how feeding the world has caused more starvation than ever.


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## FreedomStarr (Oct 21, 2014)

I did not see anyone bash on farmers? My post was not meant to do that. Massive meat plants are environmentally unfriendly. That is just true, nothing to do with how they treat animals. In eating meat, we have to feed the stock grain instead of eating it ourselves, so eating meat really just increases the need for grains to be produced. Don't get me wrong- I eat meat, but I like arguments to be realistic (if you all grass fed that is different. I cannot afford that though. I have 5 kids) Next year I am going to try producing all my own meat/eggs/milk. Should be fun.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I think the key to a good healthy life is moderation. A little bit of everything and not a lot of one.
An all meat diet is bad (not even lions eat all meat, they eat the vegetarian stomach contents of the downed animal). An all veggie diet is bad, just use common sense. People with extreme view on either end of the spectrum aren't willing to listen to anyone else, but, hopefully the common sense folks win out! 

One note about the terrible videos PETA etc. post. If those people saw horrific things going on, aren't they morally responsible to stop that act and turn in the person committing it? Why wait months before they "go public"?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That's really weird what happened to the the post written in CAPS that was repeating the smear campaign that so many spread around??? There's no sign it was ever there so now it looks like I went off on nothing????


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

goathiker said:


> That's really weird what happened to the the post written in CAPS that was repeating the smear campaign that so many spread around??? There's no sign it was ever there so now it looks like I went off on nothing????


 Well, I am glad I did not have to see it as this is a very interesting topic. I would love to see the essay when it is completed.
OP: I do know that a few mouse clicks should get you some articles about how meat and saturated fats are important to overall health. Unlike what we were taught in the 70's and 80's. My family eats lots and lots of vegetables but we love our meat.

I am reminded of my favorite Ziggy cartoon:
He is sitting in front of the TV and the announcer says,
"New from the FDA: Everything that was bad for you is now good for you and visa versa!"

In our 60's we no longer eat what the latest "survey" says but rather what makes us feel the best.

FreedomStarr, I hope you get to do that. We are close to being there (we occasionally buy some pork, generally bacon or linguicia) and it is fun. But it is also a lot of work mixed with some heartbreak. We feel it is worth it and would have a hard time going back.


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

I was a vegetarian for 10 years. I went veggie for mostly environmental and health reasons. I ate meat very occasionally (less than once a year), but only if it was pasture raised, local, hormone-free meat. I was young and broke at the time (I'm still broke, just a little less young), so it was difficult for me to budget for healthy food. I tried going vegan for a year, but that was a disaster. I had to be very conscientious about my diet to make sure I was getting enough to keep me healthy. Later on, I was "pescetarian" and ate seafood as well. When I got back from teaching abroad, though, all I wanted was a steak, so I got one. 

Now, I eat more meat partially because my husband loves, and there's no sense in making two separate meals. I wish I could afford to buy more of the type of sustainable meat that I would prefer (and DH is dead set against raising our own animals for slaughter), but we're broke so we usually get the factory farmed junk. Personally, I, like Goats Rock, think that moderation is best. I strive to eat well-balanced meals with as much "real" food (i.e. not full of chemicals) as possible. 

I know some people who have been vegetarians for decades and are extremely healthy. I know people who tried it for a few months and got quite unwell. I think some people might be more physically suited for vegetarianism than others, and even those have to plan their meals well and take vitamin B12 supplements at the least. BUT, that doesn't mean that meat eaters are all healthy or getting what they need. 

I respect everyone's personal food choices. My only issue is when people try to tell others how/what to eat. There is nothing worse than the vegetarian who interrupts an otherwise pleasant evening to tell you that meat is murder (particularly if said vegetarian is eating fish...not that I know anyone like that). When I was vegetarian, I also hated the people who told me I was wrong for being vegetarian with such great (and seriously intended) witticisms such as, "God made animals for us to eat, so not eating them is a sin." I responded to that particular one with, "Well, God made cyanide, so maybe you should try some." It was not a pleasant Thanksgiving meal that year :ROFL: 

Anyway, I guess the point of my novel here is that there's no right or wrong way to eat. I think for your essay, you should probably focus on sustainable agriculture and how that's helping the world. And, yes, the ones who brought up the fact that livestock are raised for no other purpose than to provide us with food are correct. They're, for the most part, incapable of surviving in the wild since we've domesticated them, so the only options would be to release them to their (almost inevitable) death or put them all down. Make sure you address the very valid concerns about factory farming (because a good essay always addresses counterpoints), but you can bring in the cons of factory farming fruits and vegetables too. Good luck!


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Ariella, would you care to explain what your "environmental and health reasons are?" 

I would just like to understand better where people are coming from. You seem to have a pretty thought out response, so was hoping you could give some of the environmental and health impacts of eating/supporting animal products.

Many of the people I know, are always saying things like that, as well as, "I don't eat GMO because it is bad," but when you ask them to explain what about their health, the environment or GMO's they don't like, they don't have specifics. So, I thought maybe you could help me out!

No need for a long, detailed reply, just some thoughts for me to look at more!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Goatzrule -- IF you have time and are interested (probably a big "if" at this point - LOL) you might take a look at some info on permaculture -- a form of sustainable agriculture that's gaining a lot of traction even in government agricultural circles. The goal of permaculture, in its simplest form, is basically every animal or plant plays a key part in producing something useful for the next link in the chain...a circular system of increasing productivity. A fellow from Australia named Geoff Lawton has a number of fascinating free videos online -- http://www.geofflawton.com/sq/15449-geoff-lawton . He of course wants to sell you his course, but there's still a lot of fascinating ideas and free information. I really like the video about producing methane at the home farm level from a couple of dairy cows...an interesting approach to one of the anti-meat folks' primary arguments. Not endorsing Geoff per se, but I find the principles and techniques of permaculture fascinating and useful. Good luck on your paper!


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

The environmental concerns, to a large extent, apply to factory farming in general, whether it's for animals or plants. However, some of the meat production-specific concerns are increased water usage (growing plants requires water, of course, but pound per pound, meat requires more, particularly since they are fed plant matter that required water), greenhouse gas emissions, and water pollution from livestock waste. 

As far as health reasons go, it's mostly the hormones and potential side effects of those. Some types of artificial estrogens have been linked to cancer in reproductive organs (I'd have to look up the specifics again). There is also a positive correlation between the use of hormones in meat and milk and lower ages of puberty in girls, though there's, of course, no definitive link as of yet. Granted, we don't understand the exact effects of them in our bodies yet, and perhaps they'll turn out to be fine, but it is a worrying possibility that they could have negative effects down the line.


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## Greybird (May 14, 2014)

I am wholeheartedly opposed to giant mass-producing pig farms or cattle ranches that utilize feedlots. Growing grain crops just to feed what should be grazing or browsing animals is wrong on a lot of levels, but free range, naturally-fed beef, lamb or goat is fine with me.
I'm not too crazy about large-scale broiler producers, but I've been allowed into one of those giant poultry-growing buildings and I observed that the chickens actually seemed to be quite content. They are crowded, yes, by our standards, but they only get to live for about 8 weeks and they are still very willing to snuggle together at that age. They feel more secure that way.
The last day of their life is genuinely tragic, but ... well ... that's true for most of the living creatures on the planet.

I make a big distinction between vegetarian and vegan. The vegetarians that I know are not the least bit opposed to eating eggs and dairy products, and I think that that's a healthy balance. They don't kill any animals for food but they are still able to obtain enough animal protein to stay healthy.
(Vegans just make me angry and I think it's best if I stay off of that subject.)

Personally, I believe that the most environmentally harmless way to eat meat is to use it as a supplement to a locally grown, mostly vegetable diet, like the small chopped up bits of meat in a stir-fry, a stew, or a curry, but that's just my opinion.

On marginal land, which is just about all that there is in much of the world, animals like goats are able to turn rough, inedible vegetation like drought-tolerant brush into a nutritious food source that humans can digest. Trying to grow crops in the same areas is often futile. There's not enough water, the soil is poor, and if a crop somehow manages to sprout then there's no way to control the pests that come to eat it - insect or otherwise.

Large-scale mono-culture farming is horrible for almost all wildlife, and it indirectly kills or displaces a lot more animals than ranching does. 
So ... you can eat a vegetarian diet and save a cow, but doom the quail and prairie chickens, the meadowlarks, the snakes and lizards, the little blue hairstreak butterflies, the monarchs, the kingbirds, the warblers, the ground squirrels, the toads, etc, etc, etc, - all of the little wild creatures that got wiped out when you tilled the soil, killed the "weeds" and planted your food crop. 
This is no joke!
If you are fortunate enough to live next to open cattle range then you will see a host of birds and butterflies as well as small mammals, reptiles - you name it - that live and breed among the cattle just as their ancestors lived and bred among the bison that used to roam the central plains.
If you live next to a corn or soybean field or any other kind of crop where one kind of plant spreads across many acres then you won't see nearly the variety. The plants that we think of as "weeds" are the ones that wildlife needs to survive. Ranchers can tolerate them, farmers ... not so much.

If people were to stop eating meat then all of the animals that we have domesticated would eventually die out and go extinct. 
To me, that seems like the ultimate form of betrayal. Domesticating a specie is like making a covenant with it. The domesticated species provides us with food, labor, or companionship, and we in return provide them with care and protection. We also allow them to leave more surviving offspring than they ever could in the wild, and in that way we help them to avoid extinction. 

In nature, the death of any given individual is insignificant as long as the overall population is maintained, and meat-eating humans have been very good about maintaining the populations of their domesticated livestock. 

The tropical pheasants, aka: red jungle fowl, that became domesticated were the ancestors of what is probably the most numerous and widespread bird on Earth today. The original species still exists, but they aren't common.
The offspring of the wolves who became domesticated now outnumber their wild cousins by millions to one.
The descendants of the wild horses and the aurochs who became domesticated are now all that we have left as genetic remants of their wild ancestors.
It goes on and on. 

To stop eating meat or dairy would mean that we would have to prevent the livestock from breeding in sufficient numbers to keep them genetically healthy. A few token individuals kept for display might last for a century or so, (wild guess) but the damage from inbreeding is hard to correct, at least with what we know at present.


Good grief ... I just looked at this post. Sorry for the wall o' text!
I'll stop now.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

One thing about these animals going back to the wild...

About 25 miles back in the big timber from my house is a series of valleys and natural meadows along a small river. Living in this area is a herd of wild cattle. I don't know whether they escaped from somewhere or were dumped during hard times. They do quite well back there and have been there for 30 years that I know of.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Well Im happy to say for once, I dont have an opinion on a subject!  Historical I know lol. 

I hunt for my own meat, I swing by McDonalds for a juicy fat hormone fill burger, I buy bananas or salads outta the store or eat fresh home grown and canned veggies / fruits... Life is to short to worry about if your food is all of this or non of that, when a good % of the earth goes to bed hungry. Be aware, but be reasonable.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

ariella42 said:


> However, some of the meat production-specific concerns are increased water usage (growing plants requires water, of course, but pound per pound, meat requires more, particularly since they are fed plant matter that required water)...


Having spent most of my life in very arid climates, I've always been curious about this claim and I'm wondering if anyone can shed some light. Where I live in the mountains, we have a somewhat desert environment and cattle ranching is the main agricultural industry because although the soil is fairly fertile (I think), the dry climate makes it impossible to grow crops without massive amounts of irrigation. The mountain grasses, on the other hand, have evolved to survive the harsh, dry climate and thrive on only a few inches of rain a year. Hay made from these pastures is rich, yet it does not require nearly the level of irrigation needed by human food crops. Because I grew up watching cows thrive on land that is too arid to support grain or vegetables, I've always been suspicious of the claim that cattle require more water. My brother who spent some time in Africa said that animal husbandry is the best way for many of those tribes to eat since their land is too arid to reliably support crop farming. Yet it can support cattle that supposedly drink more than plants? I'd love to know how people arrived at that conclusion when experience seems to say just the opposite.


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## FreedomStarr (Oct 21, 2014)

Most cattle are not grown that way. Most cattle are fattened as quickly as possible on a grain/alfalfa diet that requires quite a bit of water to grow. The tribal herd of cattle is a different animal all together than the large meat farming operations in the USA. There is also a lot of water involved in processing said cattle, and the waste water produced can taint water sheds and must be disposed of carefully to avoid widespread contamination of good water.

When everything is in balance the "circle of life" (lame I know), works beautifully. There are just so many humans now that it can't run the way it was meant to. There are problems with soy/corn:etc crops in general as well. 

They don't say cattle drink more than the plants- it is just the water required to raise (and process)a meat animal, does not equate to the same per calorie output of a vegan diet. That is to keep predators smaller in numbers than herbivores. Works beautifully in nature. Not so much in overpopulated humans.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming years. Everyone is worried about global warming. I think we have bigger problems than that.


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

Damfino, my concerns there, like FreedomStarr said, apply to factory farming, not cattle or any other meat raised in natural ways. There are definitely cases, particularly in arid environments, where meat is the most efficient way to raise food. It's just that the way meat is mass produced in most parts of the US is not the most efficient way to do so.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Hmm... If the statement "cows use more water than crops" only applies to factory farming, then this specification needs to be made. I see this "fact" thrown around all over the place without qualification. If we want to see changes in agricultural practices, first we need to try to avoid tossing around misstatements and applying them to everybody. I brought up Africa because I've even heard well-meaning anthropologists claim that "if only they would grow more crops..." etc. because they've been led to believe that cattle use more water _in all cases_. I think because the statement has been thrown around so much, many people now assume it's true without even thinking about it. Hardly anyone knows enough about farming these days to dispute it. Unfortunately, too many of these people are also shaping policy!

The cattle industry in this country is huge, as is the rangeland used to feed them. One of the misunderstandings I hear from people who are against animal agriculture is that they see the vast amounts of land used to graze cattle and assume that if all this were converted to cropland, we could sustain the earth. What they fail to understand is that most of this grazing land is unsuitable for raising anything but animals. Removing the cattle won't make it arable land.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Wow! Thank you for all the responses. I guess saying "Anti-vegetarian" was the wrong way of saying it. A couple weeks ago I was reading someone else essay that was like writing down a PETA video. They used a lot of the myths about farming and everyone was talking against animal farming, so I wanted to write one for farming. I am glade for the two sides of it. I will try to reread these better when I have a chance. Thanks


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## nigies4ever (Sep 19, 2012)

This is a very interesting thread...I'm glad you started it.  Living in an area where animal rights/veganism is very popular, it's nice to see that there's another side to the story. Many people don't educate themselves...whether it's those who are all for vegetarianism or painfully opposed to it. I'd say that's the most important part of it all...knowing the perspective of both parties. There can be humane farming...there can also be inhumane operations. 

The reason I bring up the whole "educate yourself" thing is because, quite a few years back at our fair, PETA decided to come out at midnight and let all the stock out. I mean untying cows, opening horse stalls, EVERYTHING. Not only were several of the people kicked/hurt, two steers ran out on to the road, were hit, and died. Goodness only knows what happened to the driver of the trucks... Which is why we now call PETA People Eating Tasty Animals. :lol:

I agree with what Jill said. We should be down on our knees thanking our farmers for providing us with nourishment.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

PETA was once given 50 lab dogs that were freed. They came to my area and picked up...They were put down and left in the dumpster behind the Safeway store...Which is why we call them People Educating Tyrannical A, um anyway...


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Fortunately we dont have any acts of PETA, but what happens to the PETA people? Do they get arrested?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Nope, they don't. It's a multi-million dollar operation. Also the HSUS, biggest scam ever...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm going to PM you a link to a little group of commercial dairy owners, they can explain what's really going on better than hobby farmers can...


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

How can't they? Its animal cruelty


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## FreedomStarr (Oct 21, 2014)

http://hamptonroads.com/node/217051

This happened when I was stationed down in Norfolk. They ended up dropping the "littering" charge as well. PeTA is disposable. HSUS as well. They don't actually care about animals, just about making the biggest public impact possible so they can get donation $$$$.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Make no mistake. Those and many other organizations that calm to be for the animals are not. Sure, they attract a lot of people who fight for the animals and use those people and their fights as a shield, but when it comes to those people in command, its ALL about the $$$.


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## Steampunked (Mar 23, 2015)

PETA are terrible representatives of the animal rights movement, and indeed they are outright rejected by many other organisations. They have a very poor name amongst animal welfare groups as the attitude is 'better dead than a pet'. There are plenty of pro-vegan and pro-vegetarian groups that are not so aggressive or wrong - but they tend not to get coverage for the same reasons. PETA makes a glorious headline, 'local boy rehabilitates shelter dog' is not really so exciting.

PETA opposes the no-kill shelter movement actively, so most vegetarians in my area are massively anti-PETA. Indeed, PETA tends to downplay 'animal rights' and bring up 'animal liberation' which is an entirely different kettle of fish. 

I keep chickens, and I processed and ate my first rooster last year - he had the right to die humanely, and the right to be treated humanely while alive, allowed to scratch, court, move around, be treated for injuries, and so forth. I think those rights are important, 'even' for the tiny dinosaur that is a chicken. But animal liberation emphasises instead that he should be released into the wild.

I do know some people who farm themselves who are vegetarian, and who raise amazing vegetables and fruit - however, the investment of human capital is huge. I don't think most urban vegetarians realise the sheer amount of effort that goes in, at all. Kudos to those who can manage it, but it's massive.

It reminds me of my interest in foraging for food - I do that too! And I think it's a good idea. But if everyone did it, there simply wouldn't be enough for people, at all. It would probably break any number of natural lifecycles of plants and animals if they were all suddenly being predated upon by a mass of humans.


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## RhinoWhite (Nov 17, 2013)

Goatzrule said:


> for class I am writing an essay against going vegetarian to save animals. I was reading another essay that says vegetarians are healthier, save more animals, and that farming creates more pollution(trust me by the end of reading that I was about to put my head through a wall :brickwall . ...


Perhaps the environmentalists should explain why domestic animals (that we keep for meat) ARE NOT threatened by extinction. Meanwhile it's the animals that we don't keep for that purpose that are.


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