# Dairy buck



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Well, this stinky hairy old guy just might be coming to live at my place.

There's a lady wanting to rehome him (free), he's an unreg. toggenberg. I know he's not great, but I am considering getting him to put over my four dairy does (3 saanens and 1 BA). I figure its still better than using the angora or boer buck over them. This way I will have dairy bred kids, rather than half meat or fibre kids.



















A quick Q about his horns - I thought dairy horns grew straight up into the air, not curled like this?

EDIT to say I made the pics smaller


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

AAAH! He's huge! Sorry, give me a few minutes and I will resize the pics

EDIT Also, I'd really appreciate your comments about his strengths and weaknesses, good points and bad. 

Here's what I'm seeing in him: GOOD POINTS good length and depth of body, strong pasterns, reasonable neck, he looks to have a gentle eye, the lady who has his said he's really quiet she can lead him anywhere by the beard BAD POINTS looks like his rump slopes off a bit but not as bad as some I've seen, front feet toe out, horn is gonna need trimming to stop it cutting into his eye, and he's a fence jumper


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

Wow his horns are strange. Buckly my Nigi buck has curled horns but they are even and not so tight like that one's. Makes me think something went wrong there somewhere. :? 

Otherwise I have to admit I don't know much about toggs. From a general view point he looks mostly well pull together. He sounds like he has some issues but...he's free, right? It's a hard decision. :shrug:


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

betcha the horns are scurs.


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## FunnyRiverFarm (Sep 13, 2008)

AlaskaBoers said:


> betcha the horns are scurs.


I agree--I have never seen such gnarly looking horns that weren't scurs. Someone probably tried to disbud him as a kid and didn't do it properly.

The things I would have mentioned about his conformation, you pretty much already said, Keren. He's not perfect, but certainly not terrible...and considering your alternatives...I'd probably go for it.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Yep, probably a bad disbudding job and those are some pretty big scurs. . . .

I think you evaluated him pretty well Keren.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

okay, so there's a slight problem with this buck, I dont have herd health info for him, in terms of CAE and johnes. The current owner is going to get a faecal done on him for Johnes, and I will test for CAE once he is here (provided he's clear for Johnes)


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

yeppers - definately a bad disbudding job. Didn't leave the iron on long enough.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Yep, those are scurs. Usually its really hard on dairy bucks to disbud them properly, so usually they get some pretty funky looking scurs growing.

He's a handsome fella


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Well, cross your fingers for me that the Johnes test comes up negative. I just cant afford to risk it. 

Anyone have any idea what colour the kids will come out, by joining a Togg over Saanens and British Alpines? Because if they come out clearly marked like Toggs, British Alpines or Saanens I can register them as Appendix D even though he (and the does) arent registered. But if they come out a jumble of colours, I cant.


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## lesserweevil (Oct 5, 2007)

Togg x Saanen could come out as mostly Saanen coloured with slight Togg markings - ie slight dark patches on cheeks, shoulders, etc - often as the goat gets older. Ie my little girl harmony was born pure white like a Saanen (she has Togg in her) and she has now got dark markings on her face, and on her shoulders:










Togg x BA - could well come out as a dark Togg - who knows until you try it? I dont, anyway =]


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

lol thanks weevil

that poses a question. Appendix D animals here are assessed before 12 mths for 'trueness to type' and so long as they are true to type with no cull faults, they get registered. In saanens, swiss markings is a disqualifying fault. But if they only show up when the goat is older, is it ethical to still get her registered as a kid (when the markings arent there?)


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## lesserweevil (Oct 5, 2007)

I dont know. How would you know if the markings were there if they didnt turn up as kids? The bug's markings didnt come until she was about 18 months old...

how can you know ? Surely you'd have to register it if you thought it was true - and then see what happened.

LW


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

If you are registering them as Appendix D there is the knowledge that her ancestry could be mixed so a little marking here or there shouldnt be a huge issue when they get older. :shrug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

ok so slight problem. Okay, kinda more than slight. 

A previous owner THINKS he might have been vaccinated against Johnes. But ... circumstances lead me to believe she was confused and it was just the normal vaccination. 

A blood test for Johnes will show up positive if he was vaccinated as well as infected. A faecal test is able to differentiate between vaccinates and infected animals, but, it would take several months. 

Its a difficult decision, the blood test will cost about $100, I am leaning towards having the blood test done, if it comes back negative I will take him, if it comes back positive either way I wont take him. Best case scenario it is negative and I get a buck for $100 test, $100 petrol money. Worst case scenario I've wasted $100 and got no buck. 

What would you do? :help:


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## goatbless (Jan 10, 2009)

$200 for an unregistered buck? Considering the does would be throwing crossbred unregistered dairy goats with him, I'm not sure that I'd do it. I hear that boer x dairy crosses can milk very well if you decide to keep the does, and bonus that the unwanted buck kids will still be good for meat production. If it were me I don't think the buck would increase the value of the kids enough to make it worth his cost of purchase and care. Just my two cents- he's not bad looking for an unregistered buck, but I am looking at this from an economical point of view....


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I probably wouldn't, just for the risk of spending the money for no reason. . . .

I wasn't aware there is a vaccination available for Johnes?? Could she be confusing this with the vaccination for CL?? I am probably just wrong, but I didn't know there was any other preventative for Johnes other than keeping barns and feeders very clean. :shrug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

goatbless, he wouldnt be going over my boer does, he'd be going over my purebred saanen and british alpine does. The kids would be registerable. 

capriola, google 'gudair vaccine' to get all you ever wanted to know about the Johnes vaccine


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Is Johnes prevelant in goats in Austrailia? How old is he? Wouldn't it be showing up by now if he had it? I think I'd be more worried about CAE. And CL.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

:tears: I just typed out a really great long post and my computer swallowed it, never to be seen again. 

I'll type it again in the morning seeing as I'm falling asleep now.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

> google 'gudair vaccine' to get all you ever wanted to know about the Johnes vaccine


Oh, I see. Will check that out later today.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I think if it was me I would be more worried about CL or CAE then Johnnes. How old is this guy? I think he looks really nice. He has a very long back and a nice straight top line.

I really do not believe I would worry to much about anything but the CAE and CL. He looks way to good to have Johnnes. 

Now that is just my opinion.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Okay here goes I will try to type it all out again. 

The thing with CAE, I can bring him here and have him tested myself, without worrying that he will spread it to the herd (considering it is spread by milk and blood). I am confident that, in the case of him being positive for CAE, my quarrantine area is suitable to contain the disease. Additionally, CAE is such a manageable disease (through the correct kid rearing techniques) that even if I did get it one day, its certainly not the end of the world. 

CL is vaccinated for here in Australia, routinely, and not a significant problem. 

The thing with Johnes, is I cant risk bringing him here to test him myself, because if he is positive he will have been shedding infective material the whole time he was here. And Johnes is just so easily spread, that as soon as my property is infected, half a year later (if not sooner) my neighbour's sheep will also be infected, and my back neighbour who has one of the most successful Poll Dorset studs in the country and sells rams for $40G will also be infected. And if you get Johnes here, you basically may as well sell up and move into town because no one will ever buy stock from you again, even if you have negative tests. There is a stigma about it that extends even into social life - I know people whose property got infected by Johnes who doesnt go down to the pub any more because their lifelong friends will no longer associate with them. And Johnes is just so much more devastating than CAE or CL in terms of control. Really the only method is to slaughter all the stock, and start again on a new property. 

This buck is around about 4 yrs old. It is estimated that only 1 in 9 infected animals will show the classic ill thrift and scouring which is associated with Johnes. The other 8 are infected and shedding silently - which poses a real threat to the herd health. 

Johnes is enemic in Australia. It is highly prevalent in dairy cattle and sheep. It is present but not as large a problem in beef cattle and goats. Higher in dairy goats than other breeds. I am fortunate to live in a 'protected' zone which gives me the same level of status as the first level of acreditation, without having to test every animal every year. So I really need to protect that status. 

I do think he looks quite good and I am still leaning towards having the blood test done.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

are dairy bucks easy to come by? that is what I would be asking myself. If not then it should be worth the testing


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## BeeLady (Dec 12, 2008)

The fence jumping could be a deal breaker for me. Sure, he's free, but the fence and pen you might need to build to keep him at home. . . 

If you have the facilities, the patience and the resources to deal with injuries trying to escape, and don't mind dealing with the horn. How fast do they grow on a buck like this?

Free isn't always worth it.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I've dealt with fence jumpers before, if my various methods dont fix him, he will be tethered until he has been used, then I will give him away again.


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