# explain this to me - another question 6/10



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Okay, I'm a bit of a dork I guess, I've never really looked into this completely.

I was looking at the fair dates trying to get everything on my calendar. 
My 5yo has a commercial doe she is using for showmanship. 

My question is, are commercial does shown as a breeding animal, doesn't matter what breed, as long as they are meat goats? Do you groom them similar to a breeding doe, or what? I am confused...LOL I thought my 5yo might be able to show her in the commercial doe classes just for the fun of it at the fairs that offer it...

here's an example from our county fair. 

C. Meat Classes - Market goats and commercial does (To be determined by weight & number of animals on day of show. No more than 15 per class.)



11. Commercial Does $25 $20 $15 $10 Ribbon Ribbon 

12. Market Goats $25 $20 $15 $10 Ribbon Ribbon 

13. Grand Champion Banner 

14. Reserve Grand Champion  Banner



I know I can ask the 4-H leader tomorrow, but figured I'd see what you all thought.

Thought I'd add that I honestly never paid attention to the commercial doe classes before since the shows we were at we were busy and not able to make it over to the ring. I know that kids show market does with market wethers...


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*

Seeing as how the rules state by weight and nothing about birthdates then I would say that show is like a market wether class.... Except its only does. In that case they would be fit like wethers. I have seen commercial breeding doe classes where they were shown/fitted just like registered does. But I think typically they are shown just like registered/FB. I'd ask the 4-H leader to be sure.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*

Thanks Dani I appreciate it! We were going to clip her this evening, but we'll wait and see what the 4-H leader says. We aren't prepping her like a wether at all as far as exercising, etc. since she was only going to be for showmanship, but thought if my daughter could show her in a commercial doe class as well it would be fun for her to get to show more


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*

No problem! I have a doeling that was a bottle baby that I'm debating showing in market classes... she's a nice doe just small for her age so I figured that might be better for her.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*

My daughter is so thrilled to get to show this year, she's been working so hard with this doe, leash trained her pretty much all by herself with me standing by watching, and the doe is patient with her. She was born March 1st, but is pretty big <weighed her on Fri @ 72lbs.>, and she is able to handle her pretty well -- my daughter is only 43lbs LOL
I will call tomorrow to see what the 4-H leader says, hopefully we won't have to shave her, but will if that means my daughter has a little more time in the ring, I think it will be a great learning experience for her, and she'll get to participate more.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*

I have a brother about her age and this year is his first year showing as well.... He's really excited too! Her doe kid seems to be growing really well... I'm anxious to see how she does  good luck


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*

How's your brother's goat coming along with leash training? I hope he is doing better. Last night my daughter had the best time ever with the doe we've been having trouble with, I mean...I couldn't believe it was the same goat LOL Now watch today she'll be back to her normal 'spitfire' self, heh.

I emailed the 4-H leader, and found out that my daughter will have to show her as a market animal.
1. because of her age
2. because we had her goat state tagged <KUIP tag>.

I was told we had to have a KUIP tag on commercial does, but now I found out we don't! Very frustrating. Now I am told all we need is the scrapie and a health certificate for a commercial doe.
I'm not going to complain simply because my daughter would still have to show a market animal. 
Her doe is by no means prepped as a market animal, doesn't have all the muscling, etc. that the kids build up in them, but she'll still have fun with her reguardless and I think the more time she gets to spend in the ring, the more she'll learn from it, and beats sitting around watching all the other kids showing and not being able to participate.

So now.....learning how to shave a market goat LOL But also...tipping the horns! I know the horns have to be tipped...wonderful....I do remember someone saying at one of the shows that for market goats with horns they have to be tipped...


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*

He's coming along nicely. He is finally walking but likes to take off running randomly. I think he'll be ready by our first show in August... well at least I hope he will be. Off the leash he is really sweet and wants attention so I think his previous owner may have spoiled him a little.

Shaving wethers is fairly easy... you basically take the same blade length (i prefer 7) and shave every where except below the knee/hock. The only thing you really have to be careful about is clipper lines but they fade out after a few days. Tipping horns isn't all that bad either... just file the ends dull.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*

Dani is experienced, so I would trust everything she said.

To me, a commercial doe is a doe in your breeding herd that is not registered.
A market goat is for eating. :shrug:

I can not see why a commercial doe with a state scrappies tag can not be
a "commercial doe" for the show. Are they saying because you didn't need
the tag you are not eligible? That makes no sense.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*



Tenacross said:


> Dani is experienced, so I would trust everything she said.
> 
> To me, a commercial doe is a doe in your breeding herd that is not registered.
> A market goat is for eating. :shrug:
> ...


I agree, I always take everything Dani says 110% 

What it is, I was told a couple of months ago that if we show a non registered doe, they have to have the scrapie tag AND the KUIP tag which is done by a state official and all market animals <goats, sheep, cattle, etc.> have to have a KUIP tag. But again I was told non registered, being used as showmanship and possibly commercial doe would have to have a KUIP tag. 
But now that we have both scrapie and KUIP tag on the goat, we find out we didn't even need the KUIP tag, and once KUIP tagged they can't be shown in commercial classes :hair: 
Oh well, it's not a big deal since it's my 5yo daughters doe and we intended on only showing her in showmanship. But I'll take Dani's advice and shave her that away my daughter can show her in the market class too. I believe they keep the novice kids seperate from the older kids even in the market classes.

I looked at her horns and tomorrow I'll have my husband tip them. Any idea what's the best tool to use to tip them? We did this on a doe a long time ago but can't remember how we did it.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*

Aww thanks, I'm glad I can help you guys. I'm by no means an expert but I try 

When I tip horns I trim the tips down square with hoof trimmers and sand paper the sharp edges.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: explain this to me - commercial doe/market goat*

Okay I have another question. How short does the hair typically have to be? We gave Sparkles a good shave a few days ago to get most of the hair off and I was wondering what you all thought of her hair length considering she's being shown in novice?

I know it's hard to tell, but I think her hair is possibly about 1/2 an inch long if that. I wanted to see how many days before the lines started to fade, and she is looking decent today, so I could clip her again tomorrow if it needs to be shorter.

She needs to be cleaned up a little more and I didn't do much with the bottom of her belly.

i was just confused because in some pictures I see skin, in others I see goats that seem to have as much hair as her. I am not sure what is preferred, and since it's for novice I was hoping they wouldn't be so picky?


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I'd personally take her a little bit shorter... I clip my wethers with a 7fc (its 1/8 of an inch long) blade about three days before the show and then touch up as needed... Of course I show in the Senior age division so they are harder on grooming. I would be sure to trim her tail up more and give it a pompom.... they are so cute to me . It makes the hair look shorter overall if the forearms and belly are trimmed tighter too. When I do touch ups before the show I do belly, under chest forearms and any stray long hairs. She looks good!!


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I just now saw this. A commercial doe atleast up here is a doe that is not registered. So it could be a unregistered full blood or some mutt. But they are all shown as breeding does with out registration papers since some shows break down from Fullbloods, purebreds, percentages, and commercial. At our fair we show them all together there is no real reason to make our show even longer. We have commercial does as of now. (will be registering 8 of them soon) I would leave her hair that long and not cut it like you would a wether. I put a chart up on your other clipping thread that I found on clipping does. We are going to try it this year. I hope this helps and I hope i am not completely wrong about this. It could be different down in KY then it is up here. After your first show you will know, I would go to the show next Tuesday with her just like this and if I am wrong you can cut her shorter for the next show but you can't add the hair back on if it needs to be longer.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks so much for the input! When we clean her up we might trim just a tiny bit off and see what happens with the first show.
Sadly, we can't show her as a commercial doe because she has a KUIP tag - the yellow one in her ear. Only market animals can have the KUIP tag <all market animals goats-lambs-calves have to have this tag in order to show>.
I was originally told in order to show her as a commercial doe she had to have the KUIP tag.
Then after we get her tagged, I ask some questions and find out she never had to be tagged, all she needed was her scrapie tag and health certificate!

But I also found out my 5yo couldnt' show her as a commercial doe anyway, because she's too young, BUT they do have a novice market class so that's where she will show her. I figure instead of just doing showmanship and standing around, if she can show Sparkles in the market class it will be more fun and experience for my daughter


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

OK well then I would shave her like a wether then if she is in the market class. They need to be shaved bald except for below the knees and the tip of the tail. I think she will do pretty good in the market class to be honest.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Roger! I will shave her, but will probably wait until Wed or Thurs before I do it. I've never shaved them bald before, haha..I've always used those comb guards on them, but when I shaved her last week I used the smallest comb I had, so now I'll have to be brave and go combless LOL

The kids are getting excited about the fair. Their first show will be up in the county north of us, they have a really nice facility, really nice pens, open and on a hill so you can catch somewhat of a breeze especially on a hot day. Then next Friday is our fair's goat show. But our county will have a youth expo at the end of July for final judging of all our counties 4-H/FFA projects.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

You might want to do it sooner so there are no lines on show day but thats just me plus it gives her a few days to grow a tiny bit back. We did Bonequiqui on saturday but will shave him again probably 1 week before the fair.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Roger! I have to do it outside and was worried about rain tomorrow, but the radar is looking good so I am planning to do it tomorrow. Poor Sparkles... LOL


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I got her clipped, took me like 2 hours...LOL But I did stop to let her take a break and let my clippers cool off. Her hair is very short, not bald, but I think she'll pass  She was such a good girl.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Well good I am glad you were able to get it done. You left the hair on her legs under her knees right?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

RPC said:


> Well good I am glad you were able to get it done. You left the hair on her legs under her knees right?


I was going too, but honestly it looked 'ratty', so we decided to trim it as well. The kids said she looks great, so hopefully she doesn't look too bad without the leg hair. Next time we have to clip her, we won't need to mess with her leg hair. She has VERY soft hair, except on her lower legs where it's more rough and wirey.


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