# Beet Pulp?



## 3stooges (Jun 20, 2011)

How much beet pulp should 40 to 70 lbs 10 month old Nubian/Nigerian Dwarfs get daily?

Now giving the 40 lb (Moe) 1/4 cup BP; plus handful of goat balancer, handful of BOSS, and a sprinkle of lentils 2 twice a day; with a handful of grain at night. Moe had a problem with UC, so cut back severely on his grain. Discovered I was giving way to much.

The 70 lb (Larry) get 1/3 cup BP; plus handful of goat balancer, handful of BOSS, a sprinkle of lentils and 1/3 cup grain 2 twice a day. Cut back on Larry's grain to because Moe had a problem.

They both like the beet pulp so much they are licking the bowl clean. I want to give them enough, but don't want to over feed.

I'm afraid I have spoiled them a bit to much they get a 1/4 of an apple each 2x daily (after their feeding and they now expect it) and I mix up a salad of what ever is in frig. daily (leeks, bell pepper, spinach, carrots, celery, a few craisins, and a dried collard leaf). But they don't have the trees in their pasture to snack on. They do get some dried leaves that blow into their area.

They always have Coastal Bermuda hay and Manna Pro loose minerals.

Thank in advance for advice.


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

Dang! I'd better not let my boys read this!!! They'd be so jealous!

How old are they? (I'm guessing they are wethers given the fact that there are only two and one had UC issues.)
Do they have grass in the pasture? and they have free choice hay.
If they are over a year then in my opinion you would be wise to cut the grain completely (no all in one go but wean them down to nothing. Is "goat balancer" manna pro's? if so then the advised feeding rate is .5-1 *oz.* I'm guessing that is a lot less than a handful. I would weigh some out and then make your self a little container to measure with. In my experience (with oz servings) the container will be close to the size of tspoon..... It's Ca is 4:1
On the Boss.... Looking it up it looks like a good idea at first until you see that the calciumhosphorus ratio is 1:6 !!!! :shocked: You want it (in the over all diet) to be something like 2:1 or 3:1.
Beet pulp is about 7:1

Then you've got the hay which looks like it is almost 2:1. and the minerals 2:1

Now what you need to do is figure out a mix that evens out to about 2:1 Ca. I have never fed the goat balancer but is looks really similar to the minerals except with a bit more odds and ends... DE etc.... I would be inclined to feed one or the other. (someone else want to correct me?)
What I would probably do is feed twice as much beet pulp as BOSS. That should get the Ca to about the right ratio. Then you can feed hay and minerals/balancer free choice and that salad (minus the craisins) whenever... I might switch to an inch of carrot each (to make them feel happy) instead of all that apple... but I haven't looked into the nut contents of apples lol...

Now finally how much to feed.... According to The Diet for Wethers your boys (again assuming they aren't growing) need about .08-.1 lbs of protein per day. That is 1.28 oz. since the black oil seeds seem to be really high in protein (I couldn't find very good info but I mean Really high) Then I'd feed about an oz of sunflower seeds and 2 oz of beet pulp... I know that seems like a really small amount but keep in mind that they are also getting free choice hay, a salad, minerals and pasture.

What sort of condition are your boys in? Have you done the knuckle test? There was a post on here recently about it.. I'll try and find it for you...
Anyway that is my advice after some book and internet research and my experience with my babies... I've tried to show all the steps (that is why it is so ridiculously long  ) so you can take and leave the different stuff as you choose 
Anyway I hope that helps and Good luck!
M.
p.s. if they are under a year and still growing rapidly then almost everything is completely different and all the above is N/A


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

Oh here is the link http://www.luresext.edu/goats/research/bcshowto.html


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## 3stooges (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks, naturalgoats. Very helpful post. I have printed out feeding suggestion and will gradually convert to after March 1st. The boys are about 10 months old now (give or take a week - not sure of birth date). What do you think they should get until then?

Oh and said they were Nubian/Nigerian Dwarfs, but think they are Boer/Nigerian Dwarfs if that makes a difference.

The goat balancer is Manna Pro. I use the scoop that comes in the package. It measures 1 oz. I just measured my handful (which is smaller than most) is .5 oz.

Apple contents: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1809/2 Ca close to 1:9

Sunflower seeds (horse site) http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1809/2 using same scoop from goat balance to measure = .7 oz

Looked at the website http://www.luresext.edu/goats/research/bcshowto.html (read through instruction and watched video). If I did it right:

Larry (70 lbs) is about (3.5 to 4). Can't see or feel ribs; can't feel any spacing between vertebrae; difficult to grab lumbar vertebrae, slight slope; sternum can be grasped and moved little).

Moe (40 lbs) is (3). Can't see ribs/can feel them, can feel the hollows between vertebrae when pressing down; hard to grab lumbar vertebrae, little more slope; He wouldn't stand still to check the sternum (will have to check when he's eating).


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

Glad it was helpful...
It sounds like your boys are a little plump.... I think I'd just feed a bit more of the beet pulp and BOSS... Normally you'd keep them on grain until they were a year old.... but if your boys have a bit of weight they could be working off.... I'm not sure it's necessary..

If the apple are 1:9 then I'd stop them... That is a super high ratio which could end up causing stones....

So for now I'd switch (gradually) to 1.5 scoops BOSS and 3 scoops BP... since they are still growing and then cut those down to 1 and 2 once they hit a year....
M.
p.s. can you post photos? I'd love to see them


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## 3stooges (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks again naturalgoats. I'll start to change gradually tonight.

I ask hubby to take new pics this weekend. Mine always come out poor.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

It does sound like they may have a little extra padding. :wink: 
I agree if the balencer is Manna Pro you need to cut way back on that. Not sure of the total feed ratio but be sure it is 2:1


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Be very careful with this, info is sometimes misleading. 
Beet Pulp can not offset any phospherous...It is a high Oxalate food that has it's Calcium bound, not available to the animal. By the time it's done digesting the available Calcium is just about 2ca to 1ph. There also are the Oxalates themselves to watch for, they may cause stones, the relationship is not strong but, it's not small enough to ignore.
Do you know what kind of stones you are trying to prevent? That's going to make a difference because the different stones follow different areas and management practices.

In the case of apples
There are five kinds of phosphates Calcium phosphate (bones), Iron phosphate (carries oxygen), Potasium phosphate (nerves and brain), Magnesium phosphate (muscle builder), Sodium phosphate (alkilinic solvent and stabilizer)
Apples contain all 5
Apples are:
80-85 percent water
5% protein
10 to 15% starches and sugars
1 to 2% acids 
a variety of salts
rich in real vitamins and highly antiscorbutic
has maltic acid, gallic acid (these carry oxygen)
high oxegen concentrate especially in and under the skin
contain laetrile
neutalize acid products of indigestion. They help digest other foods
apple is almost totally pre-digested
apple reduces acidity in the rumen and corrects sour fermentation
break down calculi (calcium carbonate based)
anti-bacterial (apple juice kills Typhoid)
apples cleanse the entire digestive tract
apples provide 6 of the 12 tissue salts
apple cider relives pus forming disorders
apples are high in quercetin, an anti-toxidant more powerful than vitamin C

Oh, and almost 1 to 1 ratio. As long as the rest of your diet is balanced within the minimum 2.1:1 to maximum 4:1 ratio, they're not going to make a lot of difference. If you provide a little more calcium rich diet you don't have to be quite so careful, teetering right on the edge of the minium.


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

I hadn't read about the oxalate thing... what would you suggest as a source of calcium instead?
M.


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## 3stooges (Jun 20, 2011)

Good to know more info. about beet pulp and apples. I don't think the apples caused Moe's UC, unless that plus the grain did it. He was getting about 1 oz of apples and 1 cup grain -2x daily. When noticed the UC cut the grain, but increased the apple 1 oz for a 2 days. He wasn't drinking. Figured it would get some fluid in him. Then started feeding beet pulp. Haven't seen any symptoms of UC in 5 days. But since the post about Oxalates have cut back on the apples to .5 oz 2x a day and will cut out except for the occasional treat in a few days.

But, now I'm confused with the Oxalates. It seems as if the salad I'm giving them daily is not good either. Everything listed is high in Oxalates


> leeks, bell pepper, spinach, carrots, celery, a few craisins, and a dried collard leaf


Collards - if this sitehttp://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2410/2 is to be believed Ca for fresh greens are over 14:1. Although I'm sure drying them changes them some (can't find number on dried), hopefully it doesn't change much. Boys won't eat them fresh, but love them dry. But they are also high in Oxalates according to ehow.com.

So what to feed them now?

Moe at the hay bin.
[attachment=2:af2891va]SANY1318 (450x338).jpg[/attachment:af2891va]

Larry on my new bench.
[attachment=1:af2891va]SANY1309 (450x338).jpg[/attachment:af2891va]

Rare moment when Larry lets Moe have any attention - even shared. Moe chewing hubby finger.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I don't think the apples are causing any problems, they have too many good health benefits to cut them out of the diet and they don't contain high oxalates. they help break the bindings of oxalates according to some studies. Everything in moderation. 
Oxalates are in most of the green leafy weeds that goats eat. The main thing is to remember that they are there and balanct the diet to take account for them. Besides calcium, pottasium and magnesium are important to help prevent stones. These are contained in alfalfa. 
Here's how I figure my boys ration. 
They get a pellet mix of 1 part beet pulp to 2 parts alfalfa pellets. Beet pulp is 8% protein, alfalfa pellets 16%.
16+16+8 divided by 3 =13.33% protein
(CA/PH) 5/1+5/1+2/1 =4to1 CA/PH this is a little toward the high edge so it will compensate for leafy greens in moderation.
Then balance your hay. Most grass hays are 1:1 and alfalfa hays are around 5:1 so mixing about half and half gives you 2.5 to1.

Say 1 lb pellets plus 3lb mixed hay for a 100lb goat.
4+2.5+2.5+2.5=2.8to1 CA/PH
Say said hay has 15% digestable protein (common)
15+15+15+13.3=14.5%protein


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## 3stooges (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks goathiker. I was worried about what to change. They sure do like apples. Glad they can still have them in moderation.

The only alfalfa is have is the Standlee alfalfa/timothy pellets. And they won't touch them (dry or wet). They get Coastal Bermuda hay and have about 1/2 acre split into 2 pastures with a lot of weeds. Unfortunately, we don't have an area fenced off with trees they can forge on yet. Hope to have one in the near future.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

This whole post makes my head swim. My ND buck was in good condition in July. I was feeding him grain for a bit, not much, but some every day, and the breeder said no grain, just grass and hay. I stopped feeding grain, made sure he got out every day for grass (didn't have a pen for him with outside access b/c i didn't want him with girls) He also had a bout with cocci at some point - September maybe? I'd have to look back at posts, but either way, once i got my hands on him to give him meds (he was still very shy of us) I realized he was terribly thin. I honestly started worrying I'd lose him. Started giving him grain and beet pulp to put weight on. His appetite was off also, and it was suggested it could be due to rut. So i put him with the girls at the end of October just to stimulate his appetite. He now gobbles up grain and beet pulp but he doesn't seem like he is putting on much weight. In the meantime, i suspect at least some of my girls are pregnant so i need to be cutting back on their grain. I will read thru that body condition site and see if i can get an actual condition on everyone. It is hard when you don't have someone actually showing you stuff - wish i had done goats when i was in 4-H


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## 3stooges (Jun 20, 2011)

Yeah PznIvyFarm, right there with you on the head swimming.

Once you think there are clear cut answers to taking care of yours babies, and going with the program for a while, you find that your information is wrong or incomplete. Then, have to research more, change what your doing (amounts feeding or even ingredients).

I've only had goats 9 months. And, have had to change several times (mostly for their herbal worm day program - to get them to take it).

But, with UC problem Moe developed, it really scared me. He seems okay now. Back to his playful bouncy self. I just want to make sure this time I have the right nutritional program to keep them satisfied and healthy.


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

There will never be a clear cut answer... hard luck... I've been trying to feed my boys in the best way I can for almost 5 years... I'll be going along and then realize I'm doing things completely wrong... 

Goathiker: Where do you get the analysis of Beet pulp panning out to 2:1? I just want to be sure before I make any decision to switch what I'm feeding because I'm still worried that feeding both would mean the Ca ratio was way too high....

From what I've been reading Oxalate calculi are highly uncommon but oxalates do 'encourage' calcium carbonate calculi formation.... but I'm trying to figure out how much is too much...

also you said that " calcium, pottasium and magnesium are important to help prevent stones" but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that a correct balance of these is important to help prevent stones?

I read somewhere that too much magnesium causes calcium appatite stones....
(just wanted to clarify)

Thanks, this topic has been really interesting and helpful (for me at least)
M.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

What i want someone to tell me is what food I should feed my buck. Right now he is with the girls so he gets what they do. I was feeding grain to everyone b/c they all were on the thin side, esp him, and I had heard about 'flushing' to get the max number of babies. I hope it works b/c i don't want any more singletons with FFs. I don't have a weight, but i will get it later. I just have a scoop i use, and i fill it with whatever mixture i am using for the day. I tried a few different pellet mixes and finally settled on Caprine Challenger b/c they decided they didn't like anything else. (i was mixing Sunshine Plus:CC in a 50:50 mix) I toss in some beet pulp pellets, alfalfa pellets, and kelp meal a few times a week.

I have cut back on grain over the past week since it looks like at least some are pregnant. So i don't have to listen to screaming I increased the amount of alfalfa pellets so they think they are getting the same amount of food. 

Can a buck keep enough condition on just hay? Mine didn't. I don't know if it was b/c of the cocci bout, or the stress of rut, but I am worried that if he's just back to hay alone he will lose weight again. He seemed good when i got my hands on him the other day for hoof trimming. He certainly felt heavy enough as i boosted him onto the milk stand! They have so much coat now that it is hard to feel goat under all of it though lol. And he won't come close enough for daily petting like the girls do. When I had to trim his hooves he went around and around the pen until he was totally stressed out. I don't get it, he was a bottle baby, so i thought he'd be friendlier, but he hasn't warmed up to us, even though he sees us petting the girls all the time and they aren't harmed. He will take food from us, esp if we are outside the fence, but the rest of the time he acts like if i catch him i will do something horrible. Maybe I will just have to force it? (catch him and then pet and brush him and make him realize i won't harm him? Or should i continue slowly trying to earn his trust? Or maybe once he is away from the does and desperate for attention he will accept us?)


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

Sorry to be the one to break it to you... but it ain't gonna happen... i think as long as you balance the Calciumhosphorus ratio you should be fine...feed alfalfa with grain etc... I'm trying to find a good table online....
I believe it is quite possible that bucks can't keep condition on just hay... They have a lot more going on than wethers. SoI think you could probably stand a higher protein diet....
You just have to be sure that they are using all the protein.
M.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No one can just say feed this. There's too many variables.
Take for instance Miranda and I, we both raise wethers, we both work our wethers, at that point everything changes. She lives in the Mid-West, I live in the Pacific Northwest. The hay, the grass species, the plants and weeds, the minerals in the ground, the minerals in the water, the way the crops are grown, the processing of feeds, storage temperatures, the genetic lines of our animals, everything about our environments are different. So, while we can get on here and kind of argue back and forth, both of us maybe learning something in the proccess, neither one of us could really feed exactly the way the other person does because it wouldn't work even if we could get exactly the same feeds. 

Miranda, I got the the 2:1 ratio for beet pulp from a lot of the endurance riders who feed it for fat content. I can't find anything that will pin-point it. I saw one run down that claimed there was 24mgs of oxalates in 100grams of beet pulp but, how that translates I'm not exacty sure, yet. I saw another thing that said since beet pulp is a by-product, it's never going to be exactly the same for every run. It depends on the proccessing that removes the sugar. I'll keep looking until I find the actual studies on it.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

Okay, i finally got around to weighing my food. My scoop holds 4 1/2 lbs, so they get about 9 lbs total per day - for seven goats. After the cocci everyone was a bit on the thin side, so I wanted to put some weight back on them for winter. Now that I know at least some are pregnant, and they've all put on a bit of weight, I cut back on the grain and it is now half alfalfa pellets and half caprine challenger. A few times a week i cut back on the caprine challenger and toss in a couple cups of beet pulp pellets for one meal. They get hay free choice. I have mineral mix available, and sprinkle kelp meal on top once a week. Does this sound okay? I had one doe have one large kid for her first time and I want to avoid this problem again - i didn't know about not overfeeding grain until probably 3/4 of the way thru her pregnancy. Everyone seems satisfied right now with the amount, and their weight seems pretty good (hard to tell under all that winter fluff, but they aren't bony or overly fat)


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