# Lethargic weather post-diarrhea



## debisans (Nov 5, 2012)

I have a 3 year old weather (kinder) that developed a case of the scours yesterday. He went maybe a 1/2 dozen times. I immediately noticed he was lethargic and although he stood when I called him sort of just slowly walked around. I let him out of the paddock for a few hours and he found a quiet place to lie down while his sister entertained herself. He would not eat but readily drank the fresh water we provided.

He's on Nutrina Goat Chow and free choice grass hay, he also has a goat mineral block in the paddock. We moved his paddock about 3-4 weeks ago to a nicer grazing location, it has plenty of oak trees and manzanita bushes and he seems to love them. He is due for a deworming but not past due. I thought it best to wait until he feels better before deworming.

My observations...

1)Temp 102.5 today 103.4 yesterday (normal for him)
2) Scours yesterday (consistency and color of chocolate pudding, smelly)
3) No scours today
4) No noticeable ruminant movements
5) I have not noticed him drinking today but I did see him urinate
6) I have not witnessed him defecating today
7) Not interested in eating 
8) Still strong and fights oral meds
9) eye lids pink
10) Does not look bloated and not resting or pushing on any structures
11) Just lying around, seems uninterested, lethargic

This is what I've done so far...

1) I put him in an isolation paddock that shares a common fence so that he and his sister can still see each other.
2) Vit B complex (1 dose yesterday SQ)
3) Spectam Scour Hault (2 doses yesterday and 1 today)
4) CoRid (1 dose yesterday, 1 today.. 5 day plan just in case)
5) Durvet Vit and Electrolytes replinisher (could not get him to drink it)
6) Probio (1 dose yesterday and 1 today)
7) Oral Vit E & Selenium Sup (1 dose yesterday)
8) Pepto (1 dose today)
9) Majic (Karo Syp, Corn Oil, Molasses-But could not get him to take it)
10) Took him off goat chow/all grain

So basically all that seems wrong with him now that he no longer has the scours is that he's off feed, I don't see any ruminant movement and he's lethargic. Otherwise his color and temp are fine. 

Should I just leave him alone or am I missing something? How do I "reboot" his ruminant? I did buy some penicillin but have not given it to him yet. Also, vet is not an option in my area but could POSSIBLY send off a fecal if needed. 

Any advise from you long timers? At 3 years I feel that I still have so much to learn and he is truly my baby, I don't want to even THINK about loosing him.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

You're doing great! The only thing I would add is getting a fecal on him.
Good you took his grain away.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Really It's good that he wouldn't take the Mollasses and corn oil. The sugar in the mollasses slows the rumen even more and the corn oil drowns out the stomach flora and causes the scours to worsen.

To jump start the rumen. the very best way is to steal a cud from his sister and make him eat it. That cud contains every single thing that he needs to get going again. Be very careful though the back teeth are very sharp. If you go on U-Tube, there are videos showing how to steal the cud.

I would see if I could get a better Cocci remedy. Co=Rid does work for prevention but, it's not a real star when it comes to treatment. DiMethox, Albon, even Sul-met may work better.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

It's great you gave us the run down first to save time. I agree with Nancy, as well as goathiker about the sugar in mollasses and corn oil. 
I also used Sul-met with great results when my little guy got sick. I'm now using it to treat 2 of my neighbors goats.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Either cud from sister or C&D Antitoxin would be good to give him.


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## debisans (Nov 5, 2012)

*Up-date*

Thank you everyone for such quick replies however I am becoming increasingly more worried!

Here's an update...

1) He is still lethargic and I think more than before. 
2) Still not taking food 
3) I don't believe he is drinking but he is urinating although I'm not sure if it is less than before or not.
4) He began to look a little bloated so I walked him a bit (he resisted)
5) His scours have returned
6) I still haven't seen ruminant movement (although I'm not sure I know what I'm doing as I haven't seen it on his sister either).
7) Still no fever and good color.
8) He's making little sounds as if he's uncomfortable.
9) His skin still feels tight and not "tenting" so I don't think he's severly dehydration but I'm sure some.
10) Wants to hide, lying down with ears pointing back.
11) No cough or sneeze but slight runny nose!

So this is the point I ask "WHAT AM I DOING?"

1) Am I suppose to stop the diarrhea to prevent more dehydration or let it run it's course to prevent bloat?
2) Should I give him more Probio, antibiotic, Vit B? 
3) Are we thinking it's Cocci? Should I get another med to treat Cocci or continue the course?
4) How do I re-hydrate him when he fights me tooth and nail? I'm afraid of aspirating him!
5) What is my time frame here?

@goathiker... I could not find that video could you help direct me?


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

A fecal to make sure it isn't another parasite that you haven't treated for. 
MOre probiotics
C&D antitoxin
Bovisera serum or an equivalent product. 
the lowering body temp to me indicates dehydration, I use an IV kit and give IV fluids sub-q. 
When you are dehydrated you are not hungry. 

When ever I have a goat that is that sick I always give injectable antibiotics with the other treatments for parasites. I find it really helps Vet said it helps because it is helping the animal fight secondary infections and the build up of toxins in the system from the parasite load. I like using Penn G, every 8 hours until the goat is back on feed. I know this is against getting the rumen started back up. But I have always done this and I rarely loose a goat. 

I don't start giving the majic solution until I have gotten the scours to stop and if I still can't get the animal on feed. 

You might try instead of the Magic solution, a mixture of high fat Yogurt (not light) watered down a little, when you have an active scouring goat.

I have had a lot of luck with the goats being drenched with Sav A CAf and a product called Rebound. I often alternate them every 4 hours or so.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Sadly, I think you are looking at getting him to turn around in the next 24 hours, or you will loose him. 

I would give him some baking soda, 

Yes, give him antibiotics, what do you have on hand

do you have a drenching syringe, with a long silver end on it? 
Are you electrolytes really salty or are they the flavored kind, I have not used that kind you mention. Taste will help.

added when editing: 
I use corid for coccidiosis all the time, our vet recommends it. I don't think the corid is the problem. But it may not be coccidiosis that is the problem. 
could be another worm problem
could be overeating disease setting in. 
being he was on new pasture, maybe it encourage a parasite bloom. Maybe, 
do you have safeguard? it is a pretty gentle wormer and may help.


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## debisans (Nov 5, 2012)

*Up-Date #2*

After consulting with our local "goat lady" I decided to worm with a stronger dewormer than I had used last. She recommended that I specifically wanted to worm for BOT fly. I did this around supper and an hour ago he was up standing and seemed somewhat more alert. I could also here noises from his gut and he was chewing (hoping it was cud and not grinding).

Praying for a good night! Will follow up in the morning


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

What did you worm him with? I have never seen bot fly eggs on my goats, has anyone else? Wormers for bot fly though would be an Ivomec mix normally. I wonder if you're in a bankrupt worm or liverfluke area.
Keeping up the vit. B until he's really eating would be good. warm oatmeal (regular people type not-quick oats) in small amounts is good as is canned pumpkin (not pie filling) if he'll take it mixed in or seperate. I've had really good luck with Emergent-C that you buy at drugstores. I mix 2 packets in 3/4 of a gallon of warm water. The boys love it.
Good luck to you.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

That was a good plan, on our farm, a goat that sick would have gotten a strong wormer as well. Either cyectin or synanthic. What did you choose to use? I bet he will be doing a lot better. You may want to mark it on your calendar and reworm in a couple weeks, to prevent a rebloom. He may be too weak from this time to fight off another worm load any time soon. Normally, when they have been that sick I worm them at least 3 cycles in a row.


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

Try offering gatorade or put koolaid in his water to get him to drink. I would also have him tested for Johnes, just as a precautionary measure


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## debisans (Nov 5, 2012)

*Up-Date #3*

Good afternoon everyone!

~This morning he was standing and walking a little. I also witnessed him urinate as well as defecate which were nice strong berries.

~No more scours, no fever and color still good.

~He walked to me and laid his head in my lap and I brushed him. I can feel slight ribbiness although not really thin or bloated.

~Stills seams quiet and depressed.

~He's making soft sounds like puffing or moaning (THIS WORRIES ME) but not like he's having trouble breathing... not really sure what it is or means, But NOT normal either.

~This morning he got Probio, Pepto and some forced electrolytes.
~Offered baking soda, 3 types of gatorade, and a livestock electrolyte booster (he refused them all)

So more questions...

~Even though I haven't actually witness him eat or drink, can I assume he is at least eating and drinking some?

~My worries at this point is dehydration (I think) but because he is urinating am I over-reacting? Should I force oral fluids, IV, SQ?

~How often should I give Vit B (SQ) and Probio?

~These meds were mentioned but what are they used for?...Sav A Caf, Rebound, Bovisera Serum, C&D antitoxin and do I need them?

~should I just keep offering more choices like yogurt, oatmeal and different drink?

Some additional information...

~I haven't used penicillin (Pen G Benzathine and Pen G Procain) yet because I was worried about his gut.

~I do not have a drench syringe so I've been using a turkey baster....he hates it although once he realized the pepto wasn't so bad he drank it easily.

~I do not have an IV kit. Do I need one? Where can I get one and how much is it?

~Fecel sent yesterday!

~I wormed him with Ivermectin and was advised to repeat in 3 days.

~I was told by "goat lady" that I really did not need to worry about cocci because I keep goats in a clean controlled environment and they are not on wet or rich pasture however she also said that I could treat with sul-met once a month if I was worried.

Alright so what does everyone think? Are we making progress, am I still in the woods? Should I be doing more or less?

Thanks again,
~Debi~


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

Well for me, when my little guy got sick, he did loose a huge amount of weight, I was REALLY worried. I was giving him probios, electrolytes and Sulmet. When the scours stopped he was still very weak, almost weak looking in the back legs and still 'wipe out'. He did recover and it took a while to regain his strength and weight. I don't know about using Sulmet once a month, I personally wouldn't. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but in a smaller area there are more droppings, even when we keep them clean. I've seen more problems that way than fewer animals with lots of room.
That's just my experience. I'm glad he seems to be coming around!


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## debisans (Nov 5, 2012)

@clearwtrbeach How do you use the Sulmet? How long was it until you knew you were out of the woods?

What about my other questions? 

~What do you make of the sounds he's making?
~Dehydration? If so what should I be doing?
~If he has droppings and is urinating, do you think he is "secretly" eating and drinking?
~How often should I give Peobio and Vit B?
~Food and liquids? Yogurt, oatmeal or what? More gator-aid???
~Anything else I should be doing?

Thanks a bunch, I know I'm asking a ton of questions but I want to make sure I'm doing everything right.


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

Do you know how to test for dehydration? Pull up the skin, should snap right back into place. If slow to go back he is dehydrated. You can give sub Q fluids if you have them, doesn't have to be iv.just use a large syringe( like 60 cc) and inject under the skin. Do with several syringefuls if dehydrated. It will leave a "bump" that the body will absorb.


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## debisans (Nov 5, 2012)

Great Thank You!


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

I used sulmet at 1cc per 5# for the first day and 1cc per 10# for the next 4 days. 
also, if you go to the main forum and click on health and mainte. stacy has a couple of great stickys with medicine dosages that are easy and fast to look up. 
Dehydrations there is the pull up skin, you can also gently pull down the eyelids and see if they are a nice pink or fading to white (would be dehydration ). 
The little sounds, if they don't sound like troubled/labored breathing, could just be little I don't feel good sit with me sounds. At least that's what my little guy was doing. 
I wasn't sure how much he was eating but I'd sit with him while he ate a little pelleted diet, w/o corn or molasses.


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## debisans (Nov 5, 2012)

*Final Update*

Well this is my final update on Tye my little guy. I am sad to report that Tye past last Saturday.

I had found a goat vet within 100 miles of my home and took him there the Wednesday prior. He was not eating and drinking very little. However, he was still strong and urinating frequently. The vet concluded there was a cocci load but had no other parasites and was not dehydrated. He treated him with Albon and believed he would be fine in a day or two. But by that Friday he had not turned around, I called the vet but was unable to reach him. The next morning he was unable to stand and I rushed him back to the vet. I believed he was in pain and asked him to put him down. However, he passed before the vet had to intervene.

We are very sad and live in fear that this will happen to his sister. However, we moved the paddock, disinfected EVERYTHING and treated her with Albon. I also enrolled in a class to do my own fecals and plan on doing them once a month for good measure.

Thank you all for all your help and support


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

This is heartbreaking to hear ... we all know the pain too well :hug:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry you lost him. :hug:


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## LAPatriette (Apr 8, 2013)

I'm having a similar situation with one of my own wethers...it sounds like you were doing everything you could for him.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

This is an old post ...LAPatriette...ifyou make a new post about your wether we can keep up with whats going on better ...you might get lost in this old post...


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