# litter box trained Nigerian Dwarf



## Lezerz

So I have officially trained my house goat to urinate in a litter pan. I still have to sweep up but she used her litter pan SCORE!


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## DrakesFarm

Whooo hoooo, I need to do that, I boight a doe that had lived in the house, and a buck that tried to ride in my car but havnt had a house goat in my house, soooo gonna try that


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## KW Farms

If you can get her trained to do that...that is truly amazing. I never would have thought that's possible. Very cool.


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## Axykatt

Super awesome! Peggy Sue would never go in a pan, but she does go on command and waits for walkies or knocks at the door to go outside for "business".


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## Kaneel

Wow! I would so try that, but I don't think my parents would be happy with any accidents...or a goat being in the house period lol! The trick though is teaching them to poop in the pan


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## Lezerz

She goes and then comes back for her raisins


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## KasKiRanch

Okay so you do you train them to do this? I would love to be able to train ours to go in a pan or to go outside.

Tips anyone?


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## Axykatt

Just like you would train a puppy.


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## montanadolphin

Oh my goodness, I wanna do this!!! Pee and poo is the reason my new babies have to be penned while inside...I would LOVE for them to be able to run around the house and play with the kitties and my boys! HOW do you train them? When we trained our dog we did it the way my parents did it when I was a child...if they peed or pooped in the house, they would rub their nose in it, tell them "No", and take them outside.

Could someone who has had success with getting your goat to go in a pan PLEASE explain how you did it in full detail???


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## Lezerz

You cannot train them to poo in the pan. We's catch her peeing punish her and drag her to the pan when she used it we gave her a treat you have to use one of those smaller rubber maid pans.


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## Sensible

I can't imagine the thought of living with a goat in the house, even if supposedly housebroken. I imagine that one would have a hard time convincing the local health authorities that it were sanitary, if it were ever reported that she was sharing her living quarters with livestock.

Most respectable dog trainers have long since considered rubbing a dog's nose in it's waste as a housebreaking tool not only to be ineffective, but bordering on abuse. Those poor animals that do become housebroken by owners who use that technique do so in spite of it, not because of it.


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## MOgoatlady

Sensible, Out of curiosity what method would you use to housebreak a puppy? I have always done starting with a firm NO and immediate removal outside, and followed by a nose rubbing/ swat and outside if the first doesn't work. I am curious because I will be getting a puppy very soon and haven't trained a dog in 3 years.
Thanks


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## Lezerz

As for the health concerns, its just like owning a dog, a dog can be worse as a health concern. When i'm house breaking a puppy I always use positive reinforcement. I take them out every so often and they are praised.


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## montanadolphin

Sensible said:


> I can't imagine the thought of living with a goat in the house, even if supposedly housebroken. I imagine that one would have a hard time convincing the local health authorities that it were sanitary, if it were ever reported that she was sharing her living quarters with livestock.


So it's ok for someone to share their living quarters with a cat who uses the bathroom in a litterbox, as opposed to a pan trained goat? Why, because the cat has been a household pet for centuries and a goat has not?



Sensible said:


> Most respectable dog trainers have long since considered rubbing a dog's nose in it's waste as a housebreaking tool not only to be ineffective, but bordering on abuse. Those poor animals that do become housebroken by owners who use that technique do so in spite of it, not because of it.


Ok, so I guess the fact that I swat my children's butt with my palm when they do something bad is considered bordering on abuse, then right? How about when they have to stand in a corner for 30 minutes? Bordering abuse? I mean, their poor legs are probably very tired from having to stand there with their nose pressed into a corner.

Give me a break. Because I rub my pup's nose in their pee pee and tell them no then take them outside does not mean I'm abusing my puppy. And ineffective? Bull. My dog does not pee in the house, nor poop...and that's how she was trained. I didn't shove her nose all around in her poop and smear it all over her face. Her nose is placed on the pee or poo spot so she gets the SCENT. And my mother trained every puppy we had growing up this way and they learned as well. So don't tell me it is ineffective. I know for a fact it is, and it is NOT bordering abuse to do it this way.

I realize everyone's got an opinion, but when someone starts insinuating abuse (or even BORDERLINE abuse), I get a little angry when it is simply *not true*. There is a HUGE gap between rubbing a dog's nose in their pee to beating them with a baseball bat, which IS abuse. And there is also a huge gap between swatting my boys' butts and beating them with a fist. Now THAT would ALSO be abuse.

This is supposed to be a forum to help and learn, not for people like you to preach goat and puppy politics. Take it somewhere else.


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## Sylvie

That's great you litter-box trained her! 

A friend of mine taught her last batch of kids to do that. Whenever they started to go she would pick them up and place them in the box. After a while, the kids would go there all the time. Of course they had accidents every once & a while, but I thought it was pretty cool.


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## Sylvie

Sensible said:


> I can't imagine the thought of living with a goat in the house


I think it would be fun! My Mom doesn't, though...


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## ThreeHavens

I trained my bottle baby to go on his paper in his crate. Smart little man figured it out fast. Actually he got it into his head that "paper" also meant "rug" so once he trotted over to the rug, started peeing, and looked back at me like, "Look mommy! I'm being a good boy!  "


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## Sylvie

ThreeHavens said:


> I trained my bottle baby to go on his paper in his crate. Smart little man figured it out fast. Actually he got it into his head that "paper" also meant "rug" so once he trotted over to the rug, started peeing, and looked back at me like, "Look mommy! I'm being a good boy!  "


:laugh:


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## nancy d

Ok everyone, remember the "Keep it friendly, keep it fun" motto.
No need to call anyone out on how they handle housebreaking a puppy.


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## montanadolphin

Is the reason why you can only train them to pee in a box because they have no control over pooping? Just curious...I do notice that when the babies pee, they look like they make the choice to squat...but when they poop it just comes out, like there is no control. New to goats so I don't know...just taking a guess


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## ThreeHavens

Yep, that's it, I don't think they control when the poo comes. :laugh:


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## montanadolphin

ThreeHavens said:


> Yep, that's it, I don't think they control when the poo comes. :laugh:


I smawt 

(I'm smart)


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## Axykatt

ThreeHavens said:


> Yep, that's it, I don't think they control when the poo comes. :laugh:


Depends on the goat. Peggy Sue isn't in complete control, but she'll run to the door to go outside for poops if you don't distract her. It does seem to take concentration, though, and if something distracting happens her poops will still fall out.

For those concerned for my health and sanitation of my home, Peg has way fewer accidents than the dog, and never revenge poops like the cat. She's also better about taking a bath and hates having dirty feet. She stomps around and shakes her legs until I clean them.

Peggy Sue is exceptional, though, and none of my other goats have trained so well.


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## Lezerz

Echo my goat is not the most well behaved, she steals food, refuses to let me trim her hooves but I have to give it to her she's good about the pan.


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## goatgirl132

Sylvie said:


> I think it would be fun! My Mom doesn't, though...


I'm in the same boat!™


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## goatgirl132

ThreeHavens said:


> Yep, that's it, I don't think they control when the poo comes. :laugh:


They don't it just comes out unlink a dog who thinks about it


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## goatgirl132

montanadolphin said:


> Give me a break. Because I rub my pup's nose in their pee pee and tell them no then take them outside does not mean I'm abusing my puppy. And ineffective? Bull. My dog does not pee in the house, nor poop...and that's how she was trained. I didn't shove her nose all around in her poop and smear it all over her face. Her nose is placed on the pee or poo spot so she gets the SCENT. And my mother trained every puppy we had growing up this way and they learned as well. So don't tell me it is ineffective. I know for a fact it is, and it is NOT bordering abuse to do it this way.
> 
> I realize everyone's got an opinion, but when someone starts insinuating abuse (or even BORDERLINE abuse), I get a little angry when it is simply not true. There is a HUGE gap between rubbing a dog's nose in their pee to beating them with a baseball bat, which IS abuse. And there is also a huge gap between swatting my boys' butts and beating them with a fist. Now THAT would ALSO be abuse.


So... When potty training to u children do you stuff their nose in their pee and poop? Or in the toilet to show them where their saposed to go?

Its not abuse its just not exactly humane and their learning out of fear not positive reinforcement. They still learn but not how you would want them to?


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## goatgirl132

MOgoatlady said:


> Sensible, Out of curiosity what method would you use to housebreak a puppy? I have always done starting with a firm NO and immediate removal outside, and followed by a nose rubbing/ swat and outside if the first doesn't work. I am curious because I will be getting a puppy very soon and haven't trained a dog in 3 years.
> Thanks


Try positive reinforcement. 
Not swating and rubbing.
If they start to go say NO pick them up and take them where you want to go. Make sure its the same place every time. Weither inside or out. 
Clean up and disinfect any messes they make where they weren't saposed it imidiatly.
And always remember if they go where their saposed to whether you have to pick them up to take them there or they go there on their own (if you have a clicker ilgive them a click) and a good boy/girl and a scratch or treat


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## goatgirl132

What did you line the pan with? Straw? Shavings? Kitty litter?


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## nancy d

Speaking of revenge, many many years ago I lived with a family & their kitty.
When cleaning up kitchen & mopping floor I didnt think to take the waste basket out first. It didnt have a lid.
Naturally, this cat knocked it over & I was LIVID! He should have been thankful I didnt catch him I felt like wringing his neck.
That cat knew I was mad.
Instead, my pillow smelled like cat pee that night.


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## Lezerz

We use puppy pass or equine pine at the bottom and then hay or straw


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## Lezerz

goatgirl132 said:


> What did you line the pan with? Straw? Shavings? Kitty litter?


 We use puppy pads or equine pine at the bottom and then hay or straw


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## goatgirl132

nancy d said:


> Speaking of revenge, many many years ago I lived with a family & their kitty.
> When cleaning up kitchen & mopping floor I didnt think to take the waste basket out first. It didnt have a lid.
> Naturally, this cat knocked it over & I was LIVID! He should have been thankful I didnt catch him I felt like wringing his neck.
> That cat knew I was mad.
> Instead, my pillow smelled like cat pee that night.


Oh well... Lovely.... In a gross way

So now when your kids complain about moping do you tell them that story and give them one of the high tech ones we have now and tell them just be glad you don't have to get the entire flor sopping wet? Hehehe


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## montanadolphin

goatgirl132 said:


> So... When potty training to u children do you stuff their nose in their pee and poop? Or in the toilet to show them where their saposed to go?
> 
> Its not abuse its just not exactly humane and their learning out of fear not positive reinforcement. They still learn but not how you would want them to?


LOL goat girl...are you seriously comparing a goat or dog to a *human* child???
Again, give me a break. There is a reason why we, as humans, are at the top of the totem pole. It has everything to do with our brains. You cannot compare teaching a human child something to an animal. Period.

I'd like to reinforce what nancy just posted a couple of days ago:



nancy d said:


> Ok everyone, remember the "Keep it friendly, keep it fun" motto.
> No need to call anyone out on how they handle housebreaking a puppy.


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## goatgirl132

Axykatt said:


> Depends on the goat. Peggy Sue isn't in complete control, but she'll run to the door to go outside for poops if you don't distract her. It does seem to take concentration, though, and if something distracting happens her poops will still fall out.
> 
> For those concerned for my health and sanitation of my home, Peg has way fewer accidents than the dog, and never revenge poops like the cat. She's also better about taking a bath and hates having dirty feet. She stomps around and shakes her legs until I clean them.
> 
> Peggy Sue is exceptional, though, and none of my other goats have trained so well.


Could you have trained her to use a bell like a dog? 
Not sure if that would work as well though because of the forcus thing


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## laurenlewis24

montanadolphin said:


> So it's ok for someone to share their living quarters with a cat who uses the bathroom in a litterbox, as opposed to a pan trained goat? Why, because the cat has been a household pet for centuries and a goat has not?
> 
> Ok, so I guess the fact that I swat my children's butt with my palm when they do something bad is considered bordering on abuse, then right? How about when they have to stand in a corner for 30 minutes? Bordering abuse? I mean, their poor legs are probably very tired from having to stand there with their nose pressed into a corner.
> 
> Give me a break. Because I rub my pup's nose in their pee pee and tell them no then take them outside does not mean I'm abusing my puppy. And ineffective? Bull. My dog does not pee in the house, nor poop...and that's how she was trained. I didn't shove her nose all around in her poop and smear it all over her face. Her nose is placed on the pee or poo spot so she gets the SCENT. And my mother trained every puppy we had growing up this way and they learned as well. So don't tell me it is ineffective. I know for a fact it is, and it is NOT bordering abuse to do it this way.
> 
> I realize everyone's got an opinion, but when someone starts insinuating abuse (or even BORDERLINE abuse), I get a little angry when it is simply not true. There is a HUGE gap between rubbing a dog's nose in their pee to beating them with a baseball bat, which IS abuse. And there is also a huge gap between swatting my boys' butts and beating them with a fist. Now THAT would ALSO be abuse.
> 
> This is supposed to be a forum to help and learn, not for people like you to preach goat and puppy politics. Take it somewhere else.


I understand where you are coming from. That has been a way of training dogs for many years. But the american humane society says this "Never rub a dog's nose in urine or feces, or punish a dog for an "accident." This will teach your dog to fear you, and he may hide when he has to "go."

Think about it this way..dogs' noses are sooooo much stronger than humans. If you think their puddles and poo smell bad, how do you think they feel. Dogs naturally go anywhere as long as it isnt where they sleep. To potty train a dog/puppy or any animal really, feed them several small meals a day and take them outside directly after feeding. Be patient and see if they need to use the bathroom. If they don't, take them inside but keep an eye on them. After about 10 minutes take them outside again.

The only way to potty train a puppy is to use possitive reinforcement. If they potty inside gently but firmly say "no" and take them outside immediatly. You want to make pottying outside a good thing, so keep treats by the door so when puppy goes potty you can quickly reward him/her. Its generally helpful to use a phrase when potty training such as "go potty" or as my grandpa says "do your job".

If your puppy is pottying in the house you arent taking them out enough. A general rule of thumb is every 2-3 hours go for a potty break.

Im guessing these same methods work well for other animals too

Hope i helped!


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## goatgirl132

I just want to add in. Every 2-3 hours then once they handle that extend it.
You can extend it up untill about 8 hours.


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## Sensible

Rather than try to convince anyone that the primitive negative reinforcement tactics which have been recommended are no longer considered acceptable by those who know better, I'll suggest that anyone who thinks otherwise simply call people in their area who make their living by working with animals; trainers, veterinarians, behaviorists, kennel owners, breeders, etc. See how many support your ideas. They're not all involved in a conspiracy just to help me win a debate.

I still say that keeping a goat in the house is unsanitary, no matter how good your housecleaning practices are, and I don't think that they can be housebroken as effectively as most dogs or cats, no matter how hard one wishes it were so.

As for hitting children, there are other much more effective ways to teach discipline. Again, check with the experts who study child behavior and developement, and see how many you will find who approve of it, even if it is spun with rhetoric like "swatting".

I can't tell others what to think or how to behave, but in my house we do not train puppies by rubbing their nose in excrement, yet we housebreak them just the same. We do not allow goats inside other than suitably contained day old kids in the middle of winter to dry off, yet our emotional needs are still met. Above all, we do not strike children for any reason, yet they seem to be developing into decent human beings who still understand right from wrong.


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## Stacykins

montanadolphin said:


> LOL goat girl...are you seriously comparing a goat or dog to a *human* child???
> Again, give me a break. There is a reason why we, as humans, are at the top of the totem pole. It has everything to do with our brains. You cannot compare teaching a human child something to an animal. Period.
> 
> I'd like to reinforce what nancy just posted a couple of days ago:


I know it may seem silly and that children are being treated like animals...but positive reinforcement techniques that work great on a dog also work great on a little kid! Not joking! It was made pretty clear in a child psychology class on how their little brains work (the children, not dogs). For instance, a lot of children can be quickly potty trained if given an M&M for each successful use of the toilet when first starting to potty train (just like you give a puppy a treat for each successful potty outside!). Kids don't understand adult logic and reasoning, so techniques that work on animals (for short term attention spans/reward based systems) work just as well on children!

If you are subtle enough, such reward based training techniques works well on adult humans too (as long as they don't realize it is happening). It is very funny to see another adult respond to your training, haha! Operant conditioning at its best!


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## goatgirl132

Stacykins said:


> I know it may seem silly and that children are being treated like animals...but positive reinforcement techniques that work great on a dog also work great on a little kid! Not joking! It was made pretty clear in a child psychology class on how their little brains work (the children, not dogs). For instance, a lot of children can be quickly potty trained if given an M&M for each successful use of the toilet when first starting to potty train (just like you give a puppy a treat for each successful potty outside!). Kids don't understand adult logic and reasoning, so techniques that work on animals (for short term attention spans/reward based systems) work just as well on children!
> 
> If you are subtle enough, such reward based training techniques works well on adult humans too (as long as they don't realize it is happening). It is very funny to see another adult respond to your training, haha! Operant conditioning at its best!


Thank you


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## montanadolphin

I never said you couldn't teach a child by positive enforcement. My point was that goatgirl was comparing training an animal with teaching a child. That's not possible. We are far superior a species with a far superior brain. THAT was my point.

As for everything else, it is apparent that y'all don't follow the rules. The moderator stated to stop this debate, and a few of you don't seem to understand that. You do what you want and believe to be correct, as shall I. 
People like y'all is what's wrong with our country today, AND why our kids are out of control. 

I enjoy this forum, and have gotten wonderful advise to help save the two baby goats I now own. But this thread is an exception to that. The best thing I can do is unsubscribe from it and move on...and let y'all's criticism continue without my knowledge.


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## goatgirl132

1st you compared punishing a dog to punishing a kid too. 
2nd the fact our just insulted people and their kids was extremely rude. What if someone who you knew nothing about and knew nothing about you told you that? Think about these things before you post something like that. It was rude and really just in called for nd could have hurt someone's feelings.


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## Sensible

montanadolphin said:


> I never said you couldn't teach a child by positive enforcement. My point was that goatgirl was comparing training an animal with teaching a child. That's not possible. We are far superior a species with a far superior brain. THAT was my point. It was the concept of positive reinforcement which was being compared between various species. It is very relevant. It was not comparing a child to a goat.
> 
> As for everything else, it is apparent that y'all don't follow the rules. The moderator stated to stop this debate, and a few of you don't seem to understand that. You do what you want and believe to be correct, as shall I. You're living in a glass house while throwing stones. Your posts in this thread have been anything but friendly. Talking about using your methods is anything but fun. Those who advocate for using positive reinforcement methods however have been very respectful in stating their views. I think that you may realize that your argument in favor of using your methods on your animals and your children is no longer considered acceptable in cultured society, but rather than admit it, you're claiming unfairly that you're being oppressed and discriminated against in a desperate attempt to try to gain some sympathy. Irregardless, there are some people who will not sit by and condone harsh treatment of children or animals without speaking out, no matter who they may offend or whose rules they supposedly break. If anyone sees that as "calling out" on how someone housebreaks a puppy or disciplines a child, then they're part of the problem.
> People like y'all is what's wrong with our country today, AND why our kids are out of control. This argument has long been used by those who cling to the archaic principle that if you spare the rod you spoil the child. There are plenty of parents who never lay a hand on their children, who raise them to be admirable members of society. Some children raised by parents who hit them also turn out well, but some also grow up to continue the cycle. Violence in any form begets violence. It's been proven.
> 
> I enjoy this forum, and have gotten wonderful advise to help save the two baby goats I now own. But this thread is an exception to that. The best thing I can do is unsubscribe from it and move on...and let y'all's criticism continue without my knowledge.


That may be for the best.


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## Stacykins

Sensible said:


> That may be for the best.


One thing Sensible. Please don't take this as an attack, just my inner nut talking. It is regarding your use of irregardless! I think the word might've come to be as a portmanteau of regardless and irrespective. But most don't consider irregardless as a correct word. Regardless by itself works great!


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## Sensible

I'm not one of the emotionally retarded crowd who consider all corrections to be attacks, so don't worry about that.

Thanks for the grammar lesson anyway, but I can't help but wonder why you haven't corrected the many others who have made more grievous errors than myself. As for most not considering irregardless to be a correct word, I question that. _Most_ don't know the difference between to and too, there and their, etc, so they're unlikely to pick up on more advanced words.

But no matter, we're both on the same page regarding the original topic at hand. That's what we should be getting back to.


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## Sensible

BTW, "goats of da UP", is that correct English? Maybe in parts of MI, but not where I'm from. LOL


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## Stacykins

The use of irregardless is merely just a personal pet peeve


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## Lezerz

Sensible said:


> I'm not one of the emotionally retarded crowd who consider all corrections to be attacks, so don't worry about that.
> 
> Thanks for the grammar lesson anyway, but I can't help but wonder why you haven't corrected the many others who have made more grievous errors than myself. As for most not considering irregardless to be a correct word, I question that. Most don't know the difference between to and too, there and their, etc, so they're unlikely to pick up on more advanced words.
> 
> But no matter, we're both on the same page regarding the original topic at hand. That's what we should be getting back to.


I can personally ignore you being rude about my personal life choices on where to keep my goat. But you calling people retarded is just too far. I have been around special needs kids who cry over that word.

This forum was all to have fun and discuss how to potty train a goat and you turned it into criticism, rude and distasteful.


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## goatgirl132

Frainkly I think living with a goat would be awesome. 
Im still trying to figure out how is get a horse in the house so a goat might have to do XD hehehe


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

wow...hadn't checked n with this forum for awhile and wanted to see how the potty training was going. My has this thread veered off course! C'mon guys let's keeps the name calling and non-goat related goats off the threads...it's really hard to follow the topic and it has convinced soooo many to leave this site for good, when it, in my opinion is the BEST source of goat information available. None of us REALLY know eachother anyhow, and there is a place on the boards for non-goat related discussions or you can send a private message to someone to conduct discussions stemming from the forum.

Some of us have HAD to pen a goat or two inside for a short term when there was an issue with a barn or fence (such as a fire or broken gate). Most of us use pens, but being able to potty train, even for urine alone is of interest to us. It's not anymore "gross" than the hairballs my cat leaves to sweep up berries when I have to off our custom wood floor with SEVEN coats of gymnasium urethane we use to keep clean, lol. Pee is a problem... I want to continue the housetraining discussion and follow that, not this other stuff .


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## Axykatt

Peggy Sue peeing on command. The product of positive reinforcement.


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## Kaneel

Huh, I haven't seen this much drama ever in this site since I've joined  Personally, I don't think people should be calling others out on their disciplinary methods. It is _not_ abuse. And honestly, who cares if the Humane Society says you shouldn't discipline an animal that way, _they_ put thousands of animals down every year in their shelters. Would you consider that abuse? Everyone has their own opinion on how training should be done. In my experience, discipline has worked better than positive reinforcement, however I understand that reinforcement works just as well for others. I think we should all just stop judging others on what they do with their animals, it is obvious no animal mentioned has been neglected or abused. It's come down to name-calling and petty insults and arguments, even after a mod has intervened. I agree 100% with hallsthirdacrefarm, and I think we should all just forget about this and leave one another be.


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## janeen128

Wow, Really??? We all have our opinions... I read all this last night and I'm amazed that people have forgotten that.

As long as animals dogs, cats, goats, sheep.... are thriving in or out of the house I say leave it be.

I personally think goats are a barnyard animal, but there are some that like them in the house... Goats are very curious animals, and they would be fun in the house I have to admit

I had a lady a few months ago threaten to turn me in because my goats slept out on the barn... Later on I realized that she had beyond miniature goats, as they were the size of my doxin  yeah, if I had the kind that size then I probably would be making house arrangements for them

I'm glad to whomever started this post that housebreaking is working for you.... Just make sure she can't open the fridge or food cupboards or you'll be in trouble  LOL


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## Kaneel

janeen128 said:


> I had a lady a few months ago threaten to turn me in because my goats slept out on the barn... Later on I realized that she had beyond miniature goats, as they were the size of my doxin  yeah, if I had the kind that size then I probably would be making house arrangements for them


LOL! That's hilarious! How do you get goats that small? It can't be healthy for them to breed...I would want one as a pet however, they would stay baby size forever! Talk about lap goats


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## janeen128

Kaneel said:


> LOL! That's hilarious! How do you get goats that small? It can't be healthy for them to breed...I would want one as a pet however, they would stay baby size forever! Talk about lap goats


I know!! When I saw them I was in shock. She just said they were miniature dwarf Nigerians... I didn't know there was such a thing. She was breeding them.... The babies that I saw were like 4 lbs... And they were nursing momma... I was interested in her buck, until I saw him. He was maybe 3-4 inches taller then the female, and I wanted him for my standard girls LOL, yep don't think that would work... I have to admit I was really wondering if they were actually goats, but they cried like a goat. They were totally cute, and if I had that kind they would be staying in the house as my lap goats. She did come here to see my set up and realized that there was nothing to be concerned about


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## Axykatt

janeen128 said:


> I know!! When I saw them I was in shock. She just said they were miniature dwarf Nigerians... I didn't know there was such a thing. She was breeding them.... The babies that I saw were like 4 lbs... And they were nursing momma... I was interested in her buck, until I saw him. He was maybe 3-4 inches taller then the female, and I wanted him for my standard girls LOL, yep don't think that would work... I have to admit I was really wondering if they were actually goats, but they cried like a goat. They were totally cute, and if I had that kind they would be staying in the house as my lap goats. She did come here to see my set up and realized that there was nothing to be concerned about


Where is this tiny buck!? I'm breeding mini-milkers with the smallest pygmies and nigies I can find and I need a tiny buck. My aim is to breed intelligent house trained tiny goats for urban types who want to raise goats but don't have room. That's how I started with Peggy Sue, I wanted a milker who could be happy as a single goat in an urban environment. She's doing great, though her babies are less smart and bigger, so I need tiny smart bucks.


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## janeen128

Washington State, she used to live in Rochester, but she was moving up to Snohomish, that's why she was selling.. Where are you at?


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## Sensible

Axykatt said:


> Where is this tiny buck!? I'm breeding mini-milkers with the smallest pygmies and nigies I can find and I need a tiny buck. My aim is to breed intelligent house trained tiny goats for urban types who want to raise goats but don't have room. That's how I started with Peggy Sue, I wanted a milker who could be happy as a single goat in an urban environment. She's doing great, though her babies are less smart and bigger, so I need tiny smart bucks.


It's bad enough that the Nigerian Dwarf fad has people convinced that miniature goats of that size can actually be efficient milkers, but attempting to reduce the size even further, using pygmy influence no less is going to create an animal that produces milk that will cost more per pound than the most expensive organic milk that you can find. To say nothing of the practical impossibility of physically milking such an animal. And there is no such thing as a goat of any size or intelligence level being "happy" as a single goat. They are herd animals. They need constant companionship that no human can realistically provide.

I'm honestly not trying to be unfriendly here, but I wish that people would juts think for a minute about the welfare of the animals that they keep, and not allow their emotions to override common sense, getting all bent out of shape simply because someone stands up and says that what they are trying to do is just plain wrong on several levels.


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## janeen128

Curious, how much milk do you get from Peggy Sue?


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## janeen128

Sensible said:


> It's bad enough that the Nigerian Dwarf fad has people convinced that miniature goats of that size can actually be efficient milkers, but attempting to reduce the size even further, using pygmy influence no less is going to create an animal that produces milk that will cost more per pound than the most expensive organic milk that you can find. To say nothing of the practical impossibility of physically milking such an animal. And there is no such thing as a goat of any size or intelligence level being "happy" as a single goat. They are herd animals. They need constant companionship that no human can realistically provide.
> 
> I'm honestly not trying to be unfriendly here, but I wish that people would juts think for a minute about the welfare of the animals that they keep, and not allow their emotions to override common sense, getting all bent out of shape simply because someone stands up and says that what they are trying to do is just plain wrong on several levels.


Seriously Sensible??? Perhaps you need to be sensible enough to STOP this debate... I understand you have your opinion, right or wrong others have their opinion, and you need to be sensible enough to know when to STOP.... I'm not hashing it out with you, and you can state your opinion not a problem, but clearly you have a problem with other people's opinions.... They are opinions, what works for you, might not work for others...., and then again it might. Do you really think anything you said was helpful to anyone???


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## Kaneel

I completely agree with janeen. You seem to be constantly wanting to spark arguments by judging others in any way possible, even if you are wrong, which is _not_ sensible. Who cares if she's going to make expensive milk? It's not like _you have_ to buy it, so it really isn't your concern. I'm fairly sure Axycatt has more than one goat(check out her avatar & signature), something you would have noticed if you didn't just jump at the chance to call someone out. Even if she doesn't ,there are many cases of a goat being very happy with just humans for companions. Goats _are_ herd animals, but honestly, any herd will do. They don't _need_ constant 24/7 company: horses are herd animals, and I know many people with only one horse(who doesn't get company 24/7), and they are quite content where they are. I, in fact, have a goat in my backyard right now, by herself for the moment, and she is doing spectacular. A lot of different animals(horses, dogs, cats, heck even us!) have different species as companions, and they are quite happy with each other. Also, Nigerian Dwarfs are _not_ a "fad". They are a recognized breed by at least 5 registries, including the ADGA and AGS, and have been for quite a while. And, as proven many times by the breed itself, a goat of that size _can_ be an efficient milker.

I(and everyone else) would honestly appreciate that if you decide to "preach your beliefs" again, at least have a good argument behind it, instead of spouting nonsense intended to offend people.


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## Kaneel

By the way Axycatt I think that it's really cool you want to do that! Might just be the goat I need to convince my parents to let my babies in :ROFL:


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## janeen128

I have no idea where Axycatt is from, but I am more then willing to contact this lady with the "very" mini buck. She might still have him. She had 5 goats, 2 does, 2 kids, and the buck. I'm now curious in how much milk they provide.


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## Trickyroo

Reading about some methods of house training puppies jsut about made me sick to my stomach and cry.

What the pup is reacting to ( not learning from ) is the harsh voice and handling its getting , its got nothing to do with what it has done .
If the timing was right , just saying "no" and bringing the pup right outside and placing it down nicely where you want it to eliminate is the proper way to do it. Not by putting its face into its urine and feces.
It is in humane and just wrong IMO.

A dog that "learned" this way might have been lucky enough to have the verbal command in a timely manner to connect eliminating in the home with something that wasnt acceptable. That is the only thing that taught the dog not to do this , not rubbing the poor animals face in its feces and urine. It knows full well what its own "bushiness" smells like .
By yelling at a dog who messed in the house while you were gone for any length of time isnt teaching the dog anything except that when you come home you are not happy to see him , period.
It will not connect the mess with what you are displeased at , it will only connect that when you come through that door , your not at all a happy person and that he may get beat or have its nose pushed into its own feces and or urine. The dog is only responding to your mood and the sound of your voice , this is what makes the dog cower and lower its head in submission , not that it pooped or peed in your home.
The time is passed , the dog will not connect it AT ALL .

I cant believe what i read on this thread , I just cant !
I couldnt even get through the whole thread , I just got sick to my stomach ! 

Just saying....


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## DrakesFarm

Trickyroo said:


> Reading about some methods of house training puppies jsut about made me sick to my stomach and cry.
> 
> What the pup is reacting to ( not learning from ) is the harsh voice and handling its getting , its got nothing to do with what it has done .
> If the timing was right , just saying "no" and bringing the pup right outside and placing it down nicely where you want it to eliminate is the proper way to do it. Not by putting its face into its urine and feces.
> It is in humane and just wrong IMO.
> 
> A dog that "learned" this way might have been lucky enough to have the verbal command in a timely manner to connect eliminating in the home with something that wasnt acceptable. That is the only thing that taught the dog not to do this , not rubbing the poor animals face in its feces and urine. It knows full well what its own "bushiness" smells like .
> By yelling at a dog who messed in the house while you were gone for any length of time isnt teaching the dog anything except that when you come home you are not happy to see him , period.
> It will not connect the mess with what you are displeased at , it will only connect that when you come through that door , your not at all a happy person and that he may get beat or have its nose pushed into its own feces and or urine. The dog is only responding to your mood and the sound of your voice , this is what makes the dog cower and lower its head in submission , not that it pooped or peed in your home.
> The time is passed , the dog will not connect it AT ALL....


That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but the thing is, if the dog doesnt do it right in front of you or within 5 min you dont make them sniff it and swat them and put them outside, you put them outside and clean it up then let them back in. 
1 we dont beat them for no reason, they know the reason, some of the dogs I have do it in spite, they are smarter than you are giving them credit for.
You dont rub their face in the excrement ,you make them sniff it then you put them outside,if they do it a third time you add a swat to putting them out. It doesnt hurt them it just kind of gets their attention.
It works like a charm and my dogs wont leave me alone. Only my Lgd cowers ,and that was her last owner did beat her, it has nothing to do with the way we potty train them. This conversation is over I thought I would inform you on how it realy is. They arn't beat they are taught


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## goatgirl132

I'm still cought up on the face that when a child goes in the diaper when your potty training you don't swat their butt. You give them praise.

Or the owner of the horse who trained her horse to pee in a bucket( sounds gross but its pretty cool!! YouTube it) I'm sure they didn't do it out of abuse. 

And I too wana know how much Peggy sue milks. 
But lets put it this way goat milk is way healthier. And you can do so much more with it too. Soap, lotion, cooking etc. So let's say they milk a quart out of her and only drink 1/2 of that. They have a whole other 1/2 to do whatever with. Let's say that goes on for 6 days. Peggy sue milked 7qts but they still have 3qts left over to do whatever they want with. So no their not really loosing their money on "expensive milk"


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## Trickyroo

Animals dont do things out of spite , they dont have that emotion .
Only humans do  Thats one reason we dont give them enough credit for . They are very smart , and they move on . We dont , we dwell in the past too much . Not to say because of emotional scarring , some live in the past , but thats just it , emotional scarring. There is a cause of it , mostly caused by a human.


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## Sensible

janeen128 said:


> Seriously Sensible??? Perhaps you need to be sensible enough to STOP this debate... I understand you have your opinion, right or wrong others have their opinion, and you need to be sensible enough to know when to STOP.... I'm not hashing it out with you, and you can state your opinion not a problem, but clearly you have a problem with other people's opinions.... They are opinions, what works for you, might not work for others...., and then again it might. Do you really think anything you said was helpful to anyone???


 I hope that something that I _wrote _may be helpful to the animals in someone's care, if the owner reads it and finally comes to the realization that their methods are barbaric, outdated, cruel and unusual. Please help me to understand why one person's learned opinion needs to stop, while others based only on emotion are OK to continue. Again, I'm not asking anyone to take my advice at face value. Call any dog trainer and ask if the housebreaking methods that have been recommended by some here are considered to be acceptable today.


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## KW Farms

This topic has gone off course, so please, get it back on track. The motto of this forum for those who don't know..."keep it friendly, keep it fun." I am seeing some pretty unfriendly, rude, and just down right unecessary comments in this thread. Everyone please remember that you can put your opinion and advice out there in a positive manner and friendly tone. And please think before you post. Thank you.


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## DrakesFarm

Sensible said:


> I hope that something that I wrote may be helpful to the animals in someone's care, if the owner reads it and finally comes to the realization that their methods are barbaric, outdated, cruel and unusual. Please help me to understand why one person's learned opinion needs to stop, while others based only on emotion are OK to continue. Again, I'm not asking anyone to take my advice at face value. Call any dog trainer and ask if the housebreaking methods that have been recommended by some here are considered to be acceptable today.


I did and the trainer said whatever works best for me and that some tecniques work better for others.. And its not barbaric, cruel or unusual to punish an animal that knows better. A pup cant hold it an adult dog can and some choose better. Sometimes its not their fault and I get that but when they have ample chances to go outside and dont then when they go inside they know they did bad. Also Trickroo you have not met my brothers dog she is spiteful,long story, but is great at being potty trained, just dont make her mad.
Also can we get a pic lf these little tiny dwarf Nigerian Dwarfs


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## janeen128

DrakesFarm said:


> I did and the trainer said whatever works best for me and that some tecniques work better for others.. And its not barbaric, cruel or unusual to punish an animal that knows better. A pup cant hold it an adult dog can and some choose better. Sometimes its not their fault and I get that but when they have ample chances to go outside and dont then when they go inside they know they did bad. Also Trickroo you have not met my brothers dog she is spiteful,long story, but is great at being potty trained, just dont make her mad.
> Also can we get a pic lf these little tiny dwarf Nigerian Dwarfs


This encounter was back last September, but I'm pretty sure I can look up her information, as I have a card here somewhere... It was really interesting.. I'll look her info up tonight, and ask her to send me a picture. They were really cute, and seemed very happy and content with their living arrangements....


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## Kaneel

I wish that you guys would stop attacking those who discipline their animals...it is not barbaric, it is not inhumane, it is not cruel. We are all entitled to our opinions,and we have been allowing you to state yours without being rude, you obviously can't provide the same courtesy to us. We aren't going around beating our dogs for the fun of it, we aren't stomping around yelling at them all the time. We simply have a different method. It isn't at all sickening. We don't shove our dog's face in it's waste and rub it all in, we put it _near_ it. They _do_ understand and connect it, otherwise people wouldn't have been using this method for so long, with success. You cannot honestly say these things when they are very obviously untrue, because _they have worked_. No person on here who disciplines their dogs has said, _not once,_ that positive reinforcement does not work, because it is a lie. Would you guys please extend that politeness to us and not say things like that about our ways? You guys are actually saying that we are_abusing_ our dogs, how is that an at all fair statement? It isn't at all helpful, supportive, or persuasive. All you guys are doing is offending and being just plain rude.No one is asking you to stop sharing your opinions. If you guys would like to state your beliefs in a calm, open, friendly manor you are welcome to, if not we would all appreciate if you would not say anything at all. We would also appreciate if you would try to understand our beliefs and methods, just like we have understood yours.


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## Axykatt

Thanks for the defense everybody, but I don't feel attacked. 

I understand that my mini-milkers won't be a source of cheap milk. They aren't meant to be! They are intended to be for people who want to know where their food comes from, but have limited space in an urban environment. Not every goat is cut out to be an indoor animal, so I can understand the scepticism. Imagine how barbaric and insane the owners of the first housecats or dogs must have seemed! All domestic animals started out as large outdoor animals, and were bred and trained for a different purpose. For example, wolves have become Chihuahuas!

Peggy Sue is not my only goat, but she does live separately from my herd. She was raised indoors alongside my outdoor herd so she would have goat company, but she imprinted on me and has always preferred the company of humans. She chooses (by way of a doggy door) to spend much of her time indoors with the family and she has delightful manners. Her kids have not proven to be happy indoor pets and were not easily trained and so they live outside. Just like the first indoor dogs were bred from stock that took commands well and bonded closely with humans, my goats are carefully bred for size, conformation, and temperament. 

Peggy Sue gives a quart of milk a day, which isn't huge, but enough for us, and I think I can improve production through breeding. By adding Nigerian Dwarf I hope to increase milk production while decreasing the cobbiness that causes issues with kidding which Pygmies are renowned for. The Pygmy blood keeps them tiny. Unfortunately I'm in GA, so I'll have to find a new tiny buck.

It's important to remember that NONE of the livestock or pets we have today is in its "natural" state. All domesticated animals have been shaped by humans to serve a purpose. The purpose of my goal is to allow and encourage people in urban environments to take some control over the food they eat. Balcony gardens and apartment-sized milkers may one day be the norm, and then I'll be an innovator, just like the first commercial farmer was in his day.


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## janeen128

Axykatt said:


> Thanks for the defense everybody, but I don't feel attacked.
> 
> I understand that my mini-milkers won't be a source of cheap milk. They aren't meant to be! They are intended to be for people who want to know where their food comes from, but have limited space in an urban environment. Not every goat is cut out to be an indoor animal, so I can understand the scepticism. Imagine how barbaric and insane the owners of the first housecats or dogs must have seemed! All domestic animals started out as large outdoor animals, and were bred and trained for a different purpose. For example, wolves have become Chihuahuas!
> 
> Peggy Sue is not my only goat, but she does live separately from my herd. She was raised indoors alongside my outdoor herd so she would have goat company, but she imprinted on me and has always preferred the company of humans. She chooses (by way of a doggy door) to spend much of her time indoors with the family and she has delightful manners. Her kids have not proven to be happy indoor pets and were not easily trained and so they live outside. Just like the first indoor dogs were bred from stock that took commands well and bonded closely with humans, my goats are carefully bred for size, conformation, and temperament.
> 
> Peggy Sue gives a quart of milk a day, which isn't huge, but enough for us, and I think I can improve production through breeding. By adding Nigerian Dwarf I hope to increase milk production while decreasing the cobbiness that causes issues with kidding which Pygmies are renowned for. The Pygmy blood keeps them tiny. Unfortunately I'm in GA, so I'll have to find a new tiny buck.
> 
> It's important to remember that NONE of the livestock or pets we have today is in its "natural" state. All domesticated animals have been shaped by humans to serve a purpose. The purpose of my goal is to allow and encourage people in urban environments to take some control over the food they eat. Balcony gardens and apartment-sized milkers may one day be the norm, and then I'll be an innovator, just like the first commercial farmer was in his day.


Bummer, I was hoping you lived a little closer. Oh well. I get a quart a day from my kinder, so that pretty good for Peggy Sue.... Well, if you needed a gallon a day, then you can have 4 running around


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## Trickyroo

I'm a big fan of Peggy Sue and always will be


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## Lezerz

Nobody here lives in a glass house. You cannot see into what others lives are like. For instance my goat who lives inside cannot cope being outside alone. I also live in a neighborhood that is not to good. Kids will steal her and kill her. Don't judge things you do not understand.


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## goatgirl132

Lezerz said:


> Nobody here lives in a glass house. You cannot see into what others lives are like. For instance my goat who lives inside cannot cope being outside alone. I also live in a neighborhood that is not to good. Kids will steal her and kill her. Don't judge things you do not understand.


well said!
sorry you live in such a bad neighborhood!!
are you gonna teach her other tricks???sit, stand, lay, high hoof(high 5) etc.


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## janeen128

Lezerez, what kind of goat do you have? Sorry you live in such a bad neighborhood.... Yikes... That sounds scary to me I think goats bond to people quickly... Take for instance my 2 oberhasli wethers. They are outside animals but I bottle fed them, and yes spoiled them. They are used to their home and follow me whenever they get the chance. My neighbor down the road like a block down the road needed to borrow my boys for a blackberry eating party, I said sure why not... Yep why not is because the moment I left they cried. Half hour later she texts me that there is something wrong, so I go back over there, they quickly quieted down, so I stayed oh about 10 minutes and snuck off... Nope, I brought them back home 15 min later, put them in their field and they were happy as clams I thought I could sell them until that episode.... I was also not wanting to sell them because I was afraid they would end up on someone's dinner plate... So staying here/home with me is the answer


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## Lezerz

Nigerian Dwarf she's just a big baby. Terrified of thunder and outside.


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## janeen128

Lezerz said:


> Nigerian Dwarf she's just a big baby. Terrified of thunder and outside.


Awe, cute I know mine all run for the barn and when I'm in there they all keep biting at my cloths to keep me in there with them.


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## goatgirl132

are we going to be getting a picture?


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## Lezerz




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## janeen128

Cute


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## goatgirl132

awhh


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## goathiker

I love that red coloring. Really sweet.


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## Lezerz

She needs to be shaved down again for the fair show.


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