# bose and kids



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Here's a question for all you smart people 
I have never gave Bose or any other kind of selenium to my goats. After thinking about always having a few odd ball back legs on kids that come out of it on their own and a doe that won't breed I got a bottle of Bose. Gave all the does a dose is August and another last month for their 4 week per birth. I have now had more odd ball back legs then I ever have put together. They come out of 3 different bucks so can't blame that. They are coming out of it on their own but the doe yesterday had 1 really bad back leg.....already doing better but now I have a little guy with 2 REALLY bad legs. He just drags himself along. What is going on????


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The Bo.Se you give the does is for the does, they don't give any to the kids in utero. No matter what, the kids are born with very little Selenium and close to no vitamin E. They get it in the milk they drink from their dams. If you want to get then stronger faster just start giving them their Bo.Se and vit. B as birth shots.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

But why such a difference this year in weak legs??? I'll give this guy a shot and see if it helps I'm just worried maybe too much selenium??? And how many cc he's a little over 8lbs?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did you have any problem births or retained placentas? That is what giving your girls BoSe would help. I give all my kids a shot of BoSe the day after they are born or the day they are born if they need it. I find it really helps.

I'm thinking what your girls ate was lower in selenium. But hopefully Goathiker will correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Jessica84 said:


> But why such a difference this year in weak legs??? I'll give this guy a shot and see if it helps I'm just worried maybe too much selenium??? And how many cc he's a little over 8lbs?


2/10 of a cc for an 8lb kid.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

1/2 of a cc plus a Vit. E gelcap in the mouth.
The difference probably has more to do with the drought we've been having and the relative food value of the hay that results. There are a few points about Bo.Se to think about though.
Slightly deficient moms give female kids
Non-deficient moms give male kids 
You can partially choose to have a buck year or a doe year by whether or not you give the does Bo.Se before breeding. 
Don't give the bucks Bo.Se within 40 days of breeding it breaks the sperm tails. 
Since your kids are weaker this year, don't give the middle shot during pregnancy. The vit. E may be allowing the does to use up their stores during that time period shifting nutrients from the fetus. Give the last shot 1 week before the birth, it shouldn't affect any growth by then. 
Your does are ranging a huge amount of land. In reality they should be getting enough selenium from the older weeds and shrubs on the place. You may find it better to just save the Bo.Se shots for right before breeding and for weak kids.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> 2/10 of a cc for an 8lb kid.


 See, already there's a big difference in dosage for a kid  Part of why it's difficult on these forums sometimes...

Here a weak legged kid could have the 1/2cc three days in a row without any harm.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Lol, I just go by 1cc per 40lbs. I'd be scared to OD a kid with it. But I think normally, in a not weak and very deficient kid, that is the dose I'd buy, but with a very deficient kid, I'd probably do the 1/2 cc as well. 

But I'd be scared to do it three times, if I didn't just hear it was ok.
But, now I know  thanks Jill


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

We do 1/4cc with Nigerians and 1/2cc with full size kids.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

OK I'm going to just stop Bose and have on hand for like this little guy and keep some gel for not bad ones. I have had almost all boys. Out of 26 kids so far 3 girls. So with what you said I think I'll just stop. I was already nervous about giving it in the first place  but as for weak other then back legs they are way more full of energy and up moving in no time.....but I also changed my feed a little and have been giving grain the last month when usually I cut back not increase and feeding way more alfalfa so maybe that plays a rule??? Or maybe because I increased the Ctc?? And no retained afterbirth....I've never had a issue with that. It always comes out within 2 hours tops after the kids.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

More alfalfa can cause more copper issues. Maybe it's not the Selenium causing the weak back legs? Copper deficiency can do that as well and alfalfa is notoriously low in copper. I know that you bolus though, so that should be covered as well. I dislike these little mysteries. They usually send me off reading for 3 days.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol I guess everything about what I do is a little screwey lol. But sadly I have another one dragging back legs and 5 minutes later had 2 more born strong as can be....can see anything wrong with their legs. The good thing though is the mkms are being super good about letting them nurse. At least my stalls I worked on non stop to keep them out of the so called rain is going to good use for 2 goats lol......gotta laugh cause its sad


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Alright, I'm off on my reading trip. I will fire up the old dinosaur database computer just for you  
It will take me a little bit of time because that thing holds unbelievable amounts of saved knowledge and moves at a snails pace  Takes 15 minutes just to boot up...


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

goathiker said:


> The Bo.Se you give the does is for the does, they don't give any to the kids in utero. No matter what, the kids are born with very little Selenium and close to no vitamin E. They get it in the milk they drink from their dams. If you want to get then stronger faster just start giving them their Bo.Se and vit. B as birth shots.


I not sure I believe that for sure. I suppose there are tests or have been tests to prove this but I would have to have more proof for me to believe that giving the Doe Selenium and Vit E doesnt tranfer to the babies in utero. If it doesnt, then there must be a reason why and if that is so.. why would it seem so natural to give the kids a Bo.SE shot. That seems so against a natural way to put nutrition into newborns. I suppose if the milk contains the needed amounts then to get the newborn kids nursing right away should fix the issue. I still would hope and want to believe that giving the Doe the right amount of nutrients and dewormer meds would keep the babies from having this deficiency. If this doesnt help then is giving BoSe shots really the way to go? Gotta be a better way. We do give a gel vitamin boost to our Does of SEl & E. -So far we've not had weak legs from this deficiency ever but may someday. We did have our first doe come to us pregnant at too young of an age and her baby was born with a very serious distended tendon issue that the BoSe shot did nothing to correct. I had to stretch his legs every day and work with splints to correct this. The weak leg issue is something that sure does need a lot of research. There could be some that are premature that will also have this issue but from everything I have read.. it is a defficiency problem and a shot will correct it but my thing is this: I hope to prevent those baby shots by giving the Doe a good nutritional diet to prevent the babies from this deficiency.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh no!!! You don't have to...what ever it is its too late for these ones so don't go out of your way.....if on your free time you find the answer I would so be greatful. I'm just totally stumped and though for sure it might have been because I gave Bose when they didn't need it. Right now I'm still sticking to no more Bose for does though. The doe that wouldn't breed I'm thinking is still not bred so selenium must not be her issue anyways....we will find out in march


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Jessica, define weak back legs please? Are you talking about when one or both back legs don't function and when the owner positions them properly the kid can take a step, but they they splay out behind him and he can't draw them up under him again?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

While we're all on the topic of funky legs, is there a reason why some kids are born with hyperextended rear legs, or seemingly contracted tendons in the front legs?


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Lack of room in utero. Both of those things will correct themselves within roughly a week. Usually both happen in big kids/triplets. I haven't had a case of contracted tendons in a while, but I did have a case of hyper-extended back legs with one of Ruby's triplets this year.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> While we're all on the topic of funky legs, is there a reason why some kids are born with hyperextended rear legs, or seemingly contracted tendons in the front legs?


I suspect that is more womb placement than anything.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

GoatCrazy said:


> Jessica, define weak back legs please? Are you talking about when one or both back legs don't function and when the owner positions them properly the kid can take a step, but they they splay out behind him and he can't draw them up under him again?


OK with the two bad ones there is no hope of kinda putting into place and them walking....I put the legs under them and as soon as I turn loose they fall down. The only way to explain is paralized in the back legs. When I hold them under the front legs they hang straight down. The little lamancha it was almost like the joint in the hip didn't work...other then in the past urns she is solo much better. I have some who's legs kinda sway to the side and some that are kind bow legged but the bow part faces their back.....not like cowboy bow legs lol. I'm not really concerned about the others just the 2 with lifeless back legs. What it reminds me of is the dog off family guy...the pedafiles dog...just drags them along. And I don't think lack of room is the issue either these two are one of my bigger does and now that I think about it my ff are smaller and so far not a issue with them.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

GoatCrazy said:


> Lack of room in utero. Both of those things will correct themselves within roughly a week. Usually both happen in big kids/triplets. I haven't had a case of contracted tendons in a while, but I did have a case of hyper-extended back legs with one of Ruby's triplets this year.


But what if it hasn't corrected its self by the time they are 4 months? I had a doe kid who's back legs never corrected. She would stand normally at times, and walked fine for the most part, but every now and then they'd hyper extend again. I sold her because of it, and because she didn't have good teats.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I saw that a few times in alpacas. Sometimes the tendons were just too short and couldn't lengthen as needed to be normal. Vets still said it was congenital due to lack of room.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> But what if it hasn't corrected its self by the time they are 4 months? I had a doe kid who's back legs never corrected. She would stand normally at times, and walked fine for the most part, but every now and then they'd hyper extend again. I sold her because of it, and because she didn't have good teats.


Little Bits, I can't help you with that one. I've never had one who didn't correct. The only thing I can think of is genetic defect of some kind, because I'm pretty sure you gave Bose.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well one little guy is trying to get his legs under him now....the other one had a full belly so didn't want to move for me so after this doe kids I'll go work with their legs.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

This is an interesting topic. onder:
One of my Nigie babies had slightly weak back legs when she was born. Nothing much, just that she couldn't stand right away, even though she could get up on her front legs.
They were born around midnight, and I stayed until they were dry and all, so it was like 3:00 by the time I went to bed. She wasn't able to stand then, but in the morning when I came out she was standing fine. 
Would that have been a very slight def. y'all think??


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Maybe a little def. Or just cramped in the womb. I usually don't get stressed over a little odd back legs that come out of it in a day or two but I just find it odd 2 have it the worse I have ever seen and have had more little odd legs then usual......but I'm no pro in this section lol


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you had drought or overly rainy conditions this year, that is going to affect things.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

ksalvagno said:


> If you had drought or overly rainy conditions this year, that is going to affect things.


It does seem like that's playing a big part....I didn't even take that into consideration. I know people are having weird thing going on around her with cattle. A neighbor of one of our places 30 miles from here has had 5 big healthy cows just die.....so I guess I shouldn't cry about funny legs


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Jessica, do your does get enough copper? I just read a thing saying kid's that seem to have paralyzed back legs/hindquarters is linked to copper deficiency in kids.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

For sure not lack of copper. I give them more then the recommended amount every 3-4 months.......but that's very interesting!!!


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## scubacoz (Nov 7, 2013)

How do you give copper? Is it a grain, liquid or injectable? 


Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

There is a loose salt and minerals with Copper in it. Some have a low percentage while others are higher rated, read the back of the bag to find out how much is in it. If however, a goat does not eat it, then they need supplemented if showing fishtail ect.

I buy it through amazon, they come in different bottle sizes, for kids or adults. 
http://www.amazon.com/UltraCruz-Cop...8&qid=1391538831&sr=8-1&keywords=copper+bolus

http://www.amazon.com/UltraCruz-Cop...8&qid=1391538831&sr=8-2&keywords=copper+bolus

http://www.amazon.com/UltraCruz-Cop...8&qid=1391538831&sr=8-3&keywords=copper+bolus


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Pam is right. I give mine in a bolus because they never touch their minerals. Be warned the sulfate is easy to od on so I myself stay away from it. Others have had good luck with it but I would rather not try. That's why I wasn't overly thrilled about even doing Bose since again easy to od.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

At some expense, it may be worth it to have some blood work done on a few of the does who have had the problem babies. But it does sound like a typical case of low copper/selenium levels. Need to remember though that there are other vitamins and minerals that are needed for the body to process these minerals correctly. With selenium its vitamin E. Without E they simply cant process the selenium. Thus the bo-se AND the vitamin E gel. I cant think of off hand what aids with copper absorption. So it may very well be that the does are lacking. If they are not touching their minerals then maybe its the mineral mix not having what they need. What kind if any are you using? And athough a mineral may not be directly passed onto a kid in the womb, the internal mineral/vitamin balance of the doe plays a direct factor in fetus development. A doe that is lacking will often not be able to put as much into the fetus as it should. As in nature the mother comes first, the baby gets whats left. 
Speaking of nature. For those that want to refer to the natural way and often not giving adequate supplements, you need to remember. You are not in nature. You are on a farm. In nature animals dont stay in a confined space, building up feces and parasite levels in one specific area. Wild animals have huge place they roam. On a farm, regardless of how big it is, the animals eat and sleep in the same area for most likely, the entirety of their lives. Not to mention, domesticated goats havent been wild for 10,000 years and have long ago had the ability or the need to regulate their own systems. And although the quality of feed we feed them is way above that which they would find in the wild, its still going to be lacking in many areas. Wild animals feed in different areas on differ plant life as they need. Domesticated animals dont have that option. They need us to do it for them. 

Now as for legs being curled and not being able to walk on them. It can be a space issue for sure. If its bad enough you may need to splint the legs or you may need to do a physical therapy with the kids to stretch and condition the effected limbs.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Bo-se has vit E in it.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Yes it does  BUT the level is not nearly what it needs to be for goaties. Thus the added vit gel. Granted, bo-se by itself is still WAY better then non at all.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

So with BoSe, would you recommend a vitamin E-AD shot as well? I'm going to be giving MultiMin 90 and the vitamin shot a go this year and see what it does. I'm seeing hind leak weakness in some of the boer kids every year, and silent heats as well in the boer does, even though they get fed every bit as well as the dairy goats.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Everyone will have different nutritional needs for their farm depending on what natural forage or lack of it there may be. We don't really have the best natural food sources here for our goats and I am sure our soil is deficient. We try to give them as much good food as we can but it isnt enough. I put all sorts of extra goodies in with prego Does to keep their nutritional needs up. They eat dried orange/lemon peels, black oil sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, sometimes flax, apples and watermelon rinds in summer. I prefer to give our Does the Selenium/E Gel rather than a Bo-Se shot. I hate giving shots. Our vet was not wanting to get them to us anyhow so it is working for us to use this gel and much easier for us as well. I have given it to newborns before but my best plan is to help that mamma have good milk for her babies and I give them a bit of the mamma goat's colostrum if they are not nursing right away. It has usually gets the kidds all warmed up and active right away. I also sometimes give the vitamen B paste to the mammas at times after they kid depending on how things are or how they are acting.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Its not a real big issue I just thought it was interesting. Now I did do a few things different 1 instead of decreasing grain I actually fed more and gave alfalfa. I can see a difference in the size of my kids from years before so maybe lack of room. And 2 because they don't touch the minerals I have been grinding the grain and putting wind and rain minerals in it. As for 'the wild' I have 64 does on 800 acrs they don't eat at the same place very often they are always on the move and we are in the foothills and have all kinds of different weeds trees and brush. The only time they are penned is during their last week of being bred till the kids are over a month old where a coyote can't just pick them off. I'm still not 100% sure what's going on and the legs correct them self's...even the bad ones were better after a few days. I just simply think I'm going to go back to how I did things before but maybe still keep the extra alfalfa going. Lesson learned when it works don't mess with it


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If I was going to do anything in your set up Jessica, I would just give the does a vitamin AD&E shot when you're doing their before kidding vaccine booster.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Holy Jebus Jes! 800 acres?  Well with that much room I can see they would have a bit of room to move around hehe. What kinda habitat?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I already do the a&d but will add the e  I have a few that are a month out and some that are are due as late as mid may so maybe this would be a good experiment.
Tdg habitat like animals???


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ya. Depending up your location, there is some nice hunting in Cali


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Not much where I'm at. There's some deer but don't get to many on us. They like to stick to the subdivision and mountains. Someone saw a bear a few years back lol. But doves we get a lot of doves and I used to hunt with a few old men till the one passed away. Lots of coyotes and Bob cats and people claim mountain lions but in my 29 years have never seen one.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Wowzers.. 800 acres? Oh wow.. what a spread of land. California does have a lot of open acres.


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