# Teat questions



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm just curious how picky you guys are on teats (especially bucks) who come from clean 1x1 or 2x2 herds?

Do you go into the 'Acceptable' teat chart if the animal is really nice and breed them back to a clean 1x1? 

I am just curious, especially since we'd always only kept 1x1 or 2x2 with no non functional teats. 
I notice a lot of our 3-6 week old kids have 1x1 and a small non functional on each side like P3 on the chart. 

But, we also have 2 boys that we really, really like that I was hoping would possibly be shown if they grow out well - one of them is 2x2 but like A3 right now (He could space out as he matures like P2). His dam is clean 2x2, sire is clean 1x1.
His brother I thought was P3, but on one side, he has what appears to be a tiny teat/non functional attached at the base right up next to the teat. It's really tiny right now. 
Should I just watch and see if it cleans up like A1 on the chart? This guy is really nice, and I'm disappointed because if these boys turn out to be about as nice as their full brother from last year, they are going to be big, solid bucks. I was hoping they may also be shown.

I absolutely do not like crazy teats though, but I'm okay with what I've seen so far, but question one little doe that may end up being shown as commercial and this last boy I mentioned.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

On does not overly picky but bucks I am. 
Ok though let’s look at your options. Let’s say he had total DQ teats what would you have done with him? Disbud and sell as a wether? Or just simply hand and sell for meat? If no disbudding then I most defiantly would wait and see what he does. For me I had ones that were questionable, and very possible could space out as he got older but since I’m trying to sell wethers I just went ahead and disbudded. For me I would rather get the little extra money as a wether then market price (at a low time) at the sale just because he has horns. 
Another option that I have been looking at this morning is handing horns that way one could still sell market wethers if one were to give a buck a little time to see how they do on teats or what not. But so far I haven’t seen where anyone banded horns on anything less then 6 months old......I’m still digging though lol 
But I think decide what the other option is for this little guy first.....or let people know lol


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I try to be very strict on my bucks teat structure. 1x1 to 2x2 well separated is best, but I have had good luck with 2x2 close, but separate. I have does with 2x2 well separate teats, so it works out good with the kids.
It all depends on the teat lines.

P-3 is OK even if non functional, I do not mind.

A-3 is separate but close and I have taken that chance, as described above, it will stay as that throughout, they normally do not spread farther apart with bucks, does when they freshen may. It is what it is with bucks.

The brother, the way I am picturing it is
A-9?. It is acceptable, but can be tricky.
If bred to the wrong doe, may get messy.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks for your replies Jessica & Pam. I went through and checked the kids on teats/bite/pigment.

We went through and checked all of the kids. Many do appear to have 1x1 and a tiny non functional on each side or are clean 1x1.

The boy I am concerned about is P3 (1 functional/1 small non functional) on the right, but I definitely question the left side. He looks like a P3, but then right next to the regular teat, there is an itty bitty little non functional either attached at the base of the teat, or slightly separate. It's so tiny it's hard to tell, and impossible to get a picture of. 
He'll be 4 weeks on Wed, again he and his brother/sister are dam raised. Saturday he weighed a little over 25lbs. He's nearly on track with her single boy last year/his full brother who was one very impressive young buck.
Random pics this morning, they don't do him justice IMO. he is tall, long, starting to get good width on the front end, and has good bone.





































This is his brother, his teats are fine Either he'll be P2 or A3. Slightly smaller at around 24lbs, I really like this guy a lot and have from the moment he was born. But I think the one above has a lot of potential as well and he looks a lot like his sire.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

He’s a nice looking guy. I think he would be worth seeing how the teats do. I do know there are people who are not overly picky on teats. The main reason I am when it comes to teats is because I have some questionable as well as flat out DQ does. They are awesome does and I bought them before I knew better so I want to increase the odds of good teats. I think even if I didn’t though I would still be picky because nothing is more terrible then having a beautiful doe kid and seeing she has terrible teats (yeah I have one this year! Cry and crying more) 
But I’ve also had kids, like you are explaining with this guy that I look at and just put a ? Behind and then after a month or so look again and I never would have guessed it was odd looking when I first checked so I would for sure wait and see what happens. I’m seeing little horns so it doesn’t seem you need a for sure yes or no on him now, so just keep the bander put away and see lol


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, you can wait a while.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks, I will wait and see what happens. I really like the way he is growing. He's well balanced, has good bone, and is getting a nice chest. Long and tall. Hopefully he doesn't disappoint me.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

All I have to say is... DARN those Boer teats! Constantly making life complicated


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with that.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I definitely agree with that! it's frustrating!

These guys come from clean teat female family, and their sire as well, so I am thinking it could just be the way their genetics are clashing.

We'll see what happens. Very frustrating for sure as they are nice kids.

Here's a couple of videos that show the boys, lousy quality and couldn't get away from them thanks to nasty, muddy weather. We had a lot of snow earlier in the week, then more last night, then all the rain last month, I feel like we live in a swamp now...

That's his dam and siblings on the left. (it was really cold).





Boy with the spot is his brother, then the 2 of them together briefly, the little dark headed guy is a runt from another set of triplets (5 days younger) who I really like, then the 2 boys little sister comes into it. The last buckling to come in is almost 6 weeks old, and is the 2 boys 'nephew' lol.





Turn down volume due to the wind.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

They look good.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Holy Cow! I had not looked at that ABGA teat chart for a while. Some of those that are "acceptable" are sketchy as heck and don't seem much better than the DQ "structures". How would you like to try and convince a judge that "A11" was "acceptable"?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> Holy Cow! I had not looked at that ABGA teat chart for a while. Some of those that are "acceptable" are sketchy as heck and don't seem much better than the DQ "structures". How would you like to try and convince a judge that "A11" was "acceptable"?


I know I was shocked too!! I have a beautiful little doe with A9 and when I looked at her put down on her notes cull. When I was sending someone the chart I was like holly cow that's ok!? I don't care what the chart says I want happy buyers so she is still on the cull list.
Granted I've had some very bad teats, I still do on a few, and kids nurse just fine and grow to be stunning kids so it doesn't bother kids growth but it is not ideal and if I knew better at the time I would have just passed on them. I'm gonna stick with the old chart


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Jessica84 said:


> I know I was shocked too!! I have a beautiful little doe with A9 and when I looked at her put down on her notes cull. When I was sending someone the chart I was like holly cow that's ok!? I don't care what the chart says I want happy buyers so she is still on the cull list.
> Granted I've had some very bad teats, I still do on a few, and kids nurse just fine and grow to be stunning kids so it doesn't bother kids growth but it is not ideal and if I knew better at the time I would have just passed on them. I'm gonna stick with the old chart


I'm not even sure how some of those drawings are possible...
I agree sketchy teat structure doesn't mean they can't feed kids. In fact, I had a perfect/clean 1x1 doe that could barely feed one, and I have a couple sketchy teat does that milk like cows and their kids grow like weeds and their kids are usually good teat structure. It's almost a shame a doe kid is passed or DQ'd on something that only marginally affects mothering. To me, all goats have two sides to their udder. Even good 2x2 functional does are really 1x1 with extra appendage teats that have a little milk in them.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Really the only time I ever had issues was with a doe that had ballon teats/ bottle teats, whatever you want to call them that hung down really low. I would have to milk it out and help the kids latch on for a few days and they they were good. Probably the worse teats I have is fish teats, I don’t know how the kids do it but they latch on and go. I think I’m the beginning they only nurse one side of the split and then they just put the whole thing in their mouth and nurse. But she is one I’ve had from the start and I just can’t cull her over it. She’s 9 now and still raises great kids. But I’m also not on the show side.
With this little doeling if it wasn’t always the sellers fault I would sell her but I’ve just learned over the years even being honest doesn’t always mean anything, only sell what’s good. My husband said I should just keep her but I’m trying to keep numbers down so someone at the sale can have a chance at her or she will be a nice dinner I guess


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Because I'm bored, here is my opinion on the ABGA teat chart:
P1- This is the only structure that would pass for a dairy goat, but is no guarantee to raise kids any better than the rest for Boer does.
P2 - I've never seen a well-separated, functional, 2x2 doe that looked like that drawing, with two equal size teats. There is usually one main teat and another smaller teat that is higher up that works. I will admit, however, that little second teat can come in handy sometimes for that first drink of milk and in the case of triplets. Unfortunately, I have not found this teat structure to be consistently passed on to a doe's doe kids. 
P3 - This is the most common teat structure I see other than P1. Question: Do you call this 2x2 teat structure, or something else?
P4 - Again, I've not seen any does with two same-sized functional teats that are separated like that.
A1 - Why is this any worse than P3? Little nonfunctional nubs are just that. IMO.
A2 - I've never seen a doe like this.
A3 - A5 - These are basically the same. I don't like this structure. I have a good milking doe that has this on one side and I think the kids suck both teats at the same time. It's weird and I don't like the structure, but the doe I'm talking about is a top notch mother.
A6 - I highly doubt most judges ever note the difference between A6 and P1 when they are inspecting a doe not in milk.
A7 - A8 - weird
A9 - Fairly common and doesn't affect nursing. Can scare some judges.
A10 - Sketchy. this is a fish teat with only one orifice.
A11 - LOL!
D1 - D4 - These are varying degrees of "fish teat" and are the kiss of death for showing. In reality, they shouldn't be any harder to nurse for a kid than A3 - A11.
D5 - D6 - Please note: The only difference between these two and A9 is the orifice. Do you think a hungry kid cares?
D7- Seriously?
D8 - I guess you have to draw the line somewhere?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I love your commentary on the teat chart! 

I agree - I have never had a boer or boer cross does with 2 functional well spaced teats of equal size on a side , the front teats are always smaller.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)




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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol thank you for posting that I was going back and forth looking at his comment and the chart. And I laughed so hard reading it and looking lol


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree with Tenacross. Some of those teat structures though... OMG lol! 

I also agree about the does with 2x2. We have a few right now, and they are not equal in size.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Jessica84 said:


> Lol thank you for posting that I was going back and forth looking at his comment and the chart. And I laughed so hard reading it and looking lol


Your welcome lol! I figure I would post it as I wanted to compare to his comments as well. Also people learning, this will help them very much!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with the weird and wacky teat structures ABGA has posted. Very off the wall.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

That A11 though, I mean what is that even lol.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

A11 is a mess. 
Never should be acceptable.
It is worse than some of the unacceptable ones.

What ever happened to not more than 2 per side rule, that doesn't fit.

I never seen that ever in a boer.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I've never heard of the A11 either. I wonder who in the world came up with that one. I just have to laugh and shake my head. 
What gets me is, they let all of that slide. But yet... they want 0-3 month old kids to have 75% pigment in the show ring? lol. It's just crazy.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

That A11 is nuts. Boer registration seems so complicated lol


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> That A11 is nuts. Boer registration seems so complicated lol


It sure is getting there, if this seems crazy, which it really is look at the percentage topic going on, that just makes it all insane! Usually every association, dog, cow, whatever when they change their standards it's for the better, between this and the whole 25% doe thing I don't see how that is making things better. The 25% I think is just a way they can get more money but this I have no idea. I'm still not going off of this, I'm going off of the old one and anything that doesn't fit the bill is considered a cull. It was hard enough trying to tell kids that 2 well spaced out teats were ok on a boer no matter what their dairy leader says, this I can't even make sense of so won't even try lol


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

That has to be frustrating Jessica about the kids/dairy leaders. The kids need to go tell the leaders to read the ABGA breed standards! Oh wait... it might be best to not scare them with the whole teat chart lol! Maybe you could print off the Preferred part of the chart to show them it truly is acceptable. Leave out the rest so again, you don't scare anyone with the hideous structures!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol you had me laughing! I’m not going to argue with them, in the past I have showed them the chart but they don’t listen so I don’t even bother any more. I just sit back and keep my mouth shut unless I’m asked something. But I have learned there is a huge difference between dairy and meat! Like the twist. A few months ago I had a leader and a parent show up for a wether and the leader said “that one has a long twist you don’t want it” I just totally cringed. I’m not sure why a long twist is bad for dairy, I wasn’t about to ask lol


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

Our 4H club is dairy goats too, and while we have both, they are about zero help with meat goats. There's such a big difference with the udder, like they would gasp in horror if I showed them this doe.
That chart confuses me anyway. Like this, is it an A10 or a D5? I'd lean toward D5, except the mini double teat is non functional anyway. Other side for comparison, it's non functional too.
Ugly looking aside, she's a great mom and nurses fine.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I THINK it’s theD5. What it looks like to me between the two is acceptable is the same length on the teats and the D is shorter. Although she looks like she has 3 teats there?


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

Yes, it's a 2-in-1 on the side of the normal one that actually works. That's why the chart is confusing, you look at A10 and it shows that it's a non-functional, but D5 shows a functional short extra...that little double isn't functional, and they don't have anything that looks like this. Her udder is a trainwreck compared to the dairy girls though, she's older too which doesn't help, but it's just a saggy mess of weird teats, lol.

I hand milked her for the colostrum when we aborted her triplets and it felt weird but milked fine (only out of the larger teats though), and her lamb grafts nurse it fine. She's currently nursing 4 lambs and they are all fat and growing like weeds, and it wouldn't hurt her to cut some weight either, but obviously she has plenty good quality milk to go around.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

No the chart really makes sense to me. Honestly since I don’t show I don’t really worry about teats all that much. Her, honestly I probably would have sold her if she was born here because I could see how a slow in the head kid would have trouble figuring it out, but since she has already proven kids (or lambs lol) can nurse I wouldn’t worry about it.
I actually have a doe that looks like her, I bought her from a coalition sale and they said clean teats. She just had her first kid and after I grafter another kid on I noticed she is very much NOT clean. But she is doing fine so not a big deal at all


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

My kids want to show (4H/FFA) so it's a consideration for us. She's a nice doe aside from that and I wouldn't trade her for anything, but it's not something I'd like to pass on for "keeper" kids either. Kids that could be shown get a better price than meat price. 
I guess it's more confusing for me with dairy goats because it's just "2 teats total" end of story, not "this is allowable, this isn't, they can have 3 on one side but not if they are here". Just a lot more to consider, and I would hate to sell a kid as a show prospect and have a really disappointed buyer because it's a DQ and I missed it or misunderstood their crazy chart, lol.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm glad that doe has worked out so well for you. Non showing, or non registering - no big deal as long as they are nursing and not passing off worse structure to their daughters.

We have a little doe right now that I love, she's very pretty, and has a nice build. But I'm very disappointed in her teat structure on one side  She is like A9 (split towards the middle/lower side of big teat), and has a tiny little non functional well spaced - so basically combine A9 & P3 and that's one side of her udder. The other side is clean P3. 
We are planning to take her to a show in a couple of weeks, we'll see if the judge knocks her down for her teats or not, if not then my kids might show her as a breeding doe this summer, otherwise she'll be a commercial doe. I think she will do well either way. The only thing I don't like about commercial does is the fact she'll have an ear tag in each ear and one of those tags is notorious for not healing very well.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Look into what they check when showing at the fair. We have yet to have a judge check teats. But it’s also just a meat doe class, not boer or kiko or breeds, they all go in together.
But if there’s a chance she might want to show ABGA I would just go with all the Ps who knows what rules they will have next year


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

I have "better" does (teat wise) for ABGA show kids in the percentage classes, we haven't done the local 4H/FFA shows yet to see what they check for so that's hit or miss yet.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm in KY, and here we can show at the surrounding county fairs. One thing I notice, every judge is different. For breeding classes, some judges check teats, others might check teats, bite and pigment. You just never know for sure. Years ago, the person who judged our county fair is now a major ABGA judge who has judged the National show recently.


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

I just happened across this thread and I have been studying my goats teat structures lately so I thought I'd comment. I have a doe who is pretty much P4 on the chart on one side (the other side is P3). The two functional teats may be a hair closer together than the chart makes them appear. Though I was worried that this was a bad thing, it happens to be very handy that she has this teat structure, as she had triplets this spring and is able to nurse all three at once. She was bred to a clean 1x1 buck and all three kids are clean 1x1. I have her half sister out of the same dam who is 2x2 with the second teats being small somewhat functional. I've bred her to two different 1x1 bucks, this year both does were bred to the same buck. She's had twin doelings both times. Her kids last year were 2x2 and 2x3 and this years kids are 1x2 and 3x3 (it is hard to tell what the actual arrangement is when they are so small!) This doe is such a nice doe, so I'm frustrated with the teat structures she's producing!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

HoosierShadow said:


> I'm glad that doe has worked out so well for you. Non showing, or non registering - no big deal as long as they are nursing and not passing off worse structure to their daughters.
> 
> We have a little doe right now that I love, she's very pretty, and has a nice build. But I'm very disappointed in her teat structure on one side  She is like A9 (split towards the middle/lower side of big teat), and has a tiny little non functional well spaced - so basically combine A9 & P3 and that's one side of her udder. The other side is clean P3.
> We are planning to take her to a show in a couple of weeks, we'll see if the judge knocks her down for her teats or not, if not then my kids might show her as a breeding doe this summer, otherwise she'll be a commercial doe. I think she will do well either way. The only thing I don't like about commercial does is the fact she'll have an ear tag in each ear and one of those tags is notorious for not healing very well.


 I know this is a old thread but, I want to know what the judge said about her A9 teats?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'll have to look and see but I think this is my sweet baby, Mindy and if so, judges did not knock her down. She isn't a huge ABGA monster show doe (lol), but she won at county level several times. I'll look at her teat structure tomorrow. I know that split wasn't as bad as I originally thought it would be.

With teat talk, I'm really disappointed in the teat structure of the new boys we bought. I was told they were show correct, but I don't like their teats at all  They are very nice bucks - twins, so we'll decide which one we want to breed a few does to and hope for the best. We've had 1x1 buck bred to clean 1x1 and 2x2 does throw random crazy teats in the past, so I'm hoping if bred to clean does we'll end up with a cleaner structure - or we'll have some 4-H market kids. The one buck is really taking off, and I'm thinking he'll throw nice market kids anyway


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Pam --- Okay, so I checked her teat and she is like A9 on the teat chart - the small split off of the main teat is low near the base.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

So did the judge mentioned anything about that structure? I know it is acceptable ABGA.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

toth boer goats said:


> So did the judge mentioned anything about that structure? I know it is acceptable ABGA.


No judge every mentioned it. Sadly, a lot of the county fair judges don't even look! ABGA judges didn't say anything, but this one never placed so the judges never talked about her - big classes with National type goats. She's very lovely, super easy keeper, but she's not a huge, wide, big boned show doe which is what they want in the ABGA shows. 
I'd be curious what judges would say as well. The does my kids have placed well with at shows were always 1x1 or 2x2 clean. With the exception of one last year who was 1x1 with an itty bitty little non functional on each side. She won her class in 2 ABGA shows, and placed a competitive 4th in another.


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