# Precocious Udder doe sick



## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

Anyone have suggestions? I posted a couple weeks ago about a doe that has had a precocious udder for some time. Many gave suggestions,but I followed what my vet said. He said not to milk her out, either give her two hormone shots or else breed her. I put her in with my billy for a week and a half. She did not come into heat. Took her out of the pen on Thursday. Friday I noticed she wasn't aggressive at eating at feeding time, but she was still eating. This morning, she was down and then stood up when everyone else was eating but no attempt to move. Took her temp - 99.7 (was expecting high temp, not low). Since she was cooperating, I felt the udder, very hard. I milked some of it, no milk, but clearish, Maybe brownish, water stuff squirted out - tried several times. No milk. Put her under a heat lamp, bedded her down with hay. Called vet. He said give her banamine, and 6 cc. penicillin. He didn't think the udder was infected or she would have a temp. 
also, gave her some nutri-drench. an hour later, was worse with head bent back. Propped her up some more and I had to leave to do a petting zoo for a party. When I got home, she had moved some, but still lying down but head stretched upwards and looking towards ceiling. No signs of blindness, but going out now to give her vitamin B complex.

any other ideas.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Her having her head at that angle seems to be a sign of polio....I'm not sure but I think the B complex would be a start , if possible try and get some thiamine...the complex has it but with polio she would need quite a bit....also, get some electrolytes into her, I would assume that since she's not eating she isn't drinking either. With no fever, you did well by getting her warmed up. Other than the possibility of mastitis...sometimes they don't have a rise in temp with it, the penicillian is good...make sure to get some probiotics into her as well...antibiotics will cause a disrupt in the rumen. Hope she pulls through for you :hug:


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Is the udder hot? I wouldn't give anymore banamine unless you can get her temp up.


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## Sybil (Dec 21, 2007)

Sounds like a good idea with the penicillin and banamine. Could of been running temp but is now very sick and is subnormal. Is her udder hot or cold? 
Sue


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

if her udder is hard i would still lean towards a bad case of mastits. Polio would be my next guess. What do you feed? what kind of hay? If her udder is hard and cold you could be in the beinging stages of gangrene mastits. This would also cause the low temp as aposed to a high temp.

Beth


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

we feed orchard/timothy grass hay; for grain, we use Purina lamb chow, mixed with Purina sheep and goat with DE mixed in the grain.
I wouldn't say the udder is "cold" but it's hard. I hadn't thought about gangrene - I hope that's not the case; I had a potbelly pig once that happened to - not a pleasant experience.
Will post how she is doing tomorrow.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I would keep a very close eye on her. Warm packs on her udder and massaging it to break up the congestion. It sounds like mastitis to me. When Dawn had gangrene it was first very very hot and hard, then cold and hard.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

i would start looking at the protein levels of the gerain you are feeding. I couldnt find either one of these products on the purina website. And am not familiar with them. We dont cary either of the products at the store i work at though most of our grain comes from purina. Dry does really dont need a whole lot of grain if they are getting a good quality hay like you are feeding. My dry yearlings i treat mostly like whethers as far as feed goes. they get a very small amount. They arnt producing milk or making kids so a good quality hay and browse is enough for them. 
what causes polio is too much protein in the diet and not enough roughage. Polio and listeriosis have very simlar signs but are caused by different things. other signs of polio will be "drunkeness" stargazing (when they roll their head back and get a far away look in their eyes. not really focusing on anything in particular). their pupils usually dont dialate right either. listlessness, and blindness.
i found a few good websites
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/artic ... iosis.html
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/liste ... gwmf.shtml
Sinse the signs are so similar its best that you treat for both. 
As for her udder. if you can squeeze some of that liquid you were talking about on a mastitis strip or even talk your get into running a test for you i would. 
Antibiotics are needed pretty quickly for both listeriosis and mastitis.
Keep us posted!
thanks
beth


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

Sunday morning - Doe much better; was chewing cud when I went to feed; had pooped during the night. Head is no longer bent upwards. Temp was a little low yet, although she was not standing still well for me to take it! This doe is difficult to do shots, trim hooves, etc. That's one of the reasons I couldn't check on this precocious udder very well previously. She did let me rub Vicks again (as she was eating her grain). It is not cold, and I wouldn't say it's hot - more like body temperature. But very hard. When I went to give her the penicillin, she refused to stand still for me, even though she was tied and slammed against the wall. I should have called for my husband, but just decided to give the pen by subq. Well, now that I'm back in the house, I read that pen is suppose to be given IM only! So what damage did I do? Hope she doesn't get an abcess...should I redo that shot and give more pen in the muscle? Or just wait until this evening and do it right?
As far as her grain, we sell Purina feed here at our farm and you're right - those products were not on their website! Although the Lamb chow is under their Show products, but the package is not the same as on the website. The other feed is Puriana's Goat and Sheep coarse 18%. Again, I don't know why it's not listed on their website. But I'm not worried about her getting too much grain. I have about 30 other animals that are all fighting for grain at the same time and they literally are only getting a handful at each feeding. In fact, when she was with the billy goat, they weren't getting any grain at all, just hay.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Pen G can go SQ or IM. So don't worry! You didn't hurt her. Pen G just can't be given IV at all! Thats why you should pull back on the syringe before you give it to make sure you aren't in a vein. 

I usually give pen 1cc per 10 pounds two times a day.


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## Sybil (Dec 21, 2007)

Just went through a goat with gangrene..................terrible experience but she lived. Gave her long lasting penicillin daily sub Q.................never in all my years have I given any PCN intramuscular. Sure sounds like she has mastitis........keep up with the hot packs and massage to improve the circulation. Sounds like your headed in the right direction. Might think about dry treating her after she is over this. If she is not eating well keep up the B vit and probios. Good Job.
Sue


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

*Re: Precocious Udder doe sick HELP*

well she was doing well this morning! At noon, she was still doing well - did not give banamine, only pen.
Went out to eat and when we got back, she was down and head bent back. Got her up and head was pointing upwards again! Worse this time - moaning as in pain. Stiffening the body. Gave her banamine and 12 cc. B-12; 45 minutes later, not doing well at all - stiffening in the whole body and tremors. Got ahold of the local goat lady and she was guessing the same as I was - she may have mengial worm. I lost a llama to it (although never verified for sure) and we treated another llama last year just because he started showing neurological symptoms. So it is possible. Waiting for the vet; going to go out and give 2 1/2 cc ivermectrin;


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

not going well. Vet suspected the thiamine problem because i saw improvement after one shot of B complex; but since I didn't repeat it, I'm still seeing problems. also, said too about mengial worm. Didn't think the udder is causing the the rigidness and staring at the ceiling. So said to continue banamine, pen, and try to get thiamine (which I had already located). So gave her 4 cc. thiamine and her nightly pen. No improvement. She's stiff and now lying on her side, moaning. I'm used to a goat grinding teeth when in pain, this is eery with her moaning. Did read online that if it's listeriosis, I need to give pen every 6 hours the first couple of days. So if she's still alive at 10:00, I'll try more pen.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh boy Martha I am so sorry you are dealing with this! crazy. I hope she pulls through for you her soon


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Poor thing. ray: :hug: 

Your doing all you can for her. I hope she turns around for you soon.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I am so sorry she's gotten worse....I pray the thiamine and Pen work for her, :hug: to you for doing what you can for her.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

When my doe had polio, the vet gave the thiamine IV...then I gave her shots twice a day for several days. She looked near death for about 4-5 hours and then stood and gradually got better over a couple of days. Hope your girl gets better. Good luck. I'll say a little ray: for her. :hug:


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

Well, I learned something new! You can't let a sick goat lie on their side!! She bloated last night. I was able to get her to stand and just massaged the area of the bloat and all kinds of gas was burped up. So I didn't have to do anything else with that problem.
She was very stiff last night and thrashing. I was at the point where I just hoped I would find her dead this morning but She was lying very stiff on her side on the other part of the stall (I had tried to prop her up with hay bales, but didn't work). Got her to stand; legs very stiff; head slightly tilted but no more convulsions. Got her back under the heat lamp. Temp was almost normal now, but noticed her vulva area is swollen and red. So not sure what that is meaning. Last night I was wondering if she could be pregnant. But I never put her in with the buck and if she got bred, it would have been between hog panels. I know it could still be possible but I'm talking about a little pgymy buck and a normal size nubian. There is no sign of baby, just that hard udder. I'm thinking it's all hormonal and then something else is going on neurological.
Waiting for awhile and having the vet make a farm call today. It was a long weekend. Thanks for advice and encouragements.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

she could be pregnant, in heat or just red because she needed to pee badly from not doing so all night :shrug: 

hopefully the vet can give you some answers poor thing


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

Of course she was up and standing when the vet came! But his guess that it's a bad case of mastitis and it's thrown off her electrolytes, her calcium and her thiamine. Temp was normal today. He tubed her with electrolytes (I've got to repeat that and boy that scares me!!); gave her some electrolytes in IV; gave her calcium. Switched her to LA200; I'm to continue thiamine, calcium, electrolytes, probiotics, LA 200, banamine and is there something else??? He thinks she'll make it but it's going to be an up and down time for her. Of course my youngst son is getting married this weekend - not good timing. I'm massaged some horse linament on the udder - it's even harder than it was yesterday. no sign of gangrene yet (at least it's not cold) but I can't imagine the udder ever recovering. So he said not to breed her; and her udder may never be cosmetically okay to use for the petting zoo, so I'm spending big bucks trying to save a goat that will probably be a great pet for someone else!!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ugh how frustrating!

the only thign I would add is some probios or yogurt to keep her rumen function working


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

yes frustrating and probiotics are already on the list. I was hoping to see her a little perkier after tubing and injections from the vet, but if anything, she looks a little worse.


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## Laurel_Haven (Oct 20, 2007)

I am so sorry to hear how ill your doe is. It sounds as though you are doing everything you can for her. I do hope it is not mastitis... I here that can be so nasty, especially when gangrene sets in. Lets hope it never advances to that stage if this is what it is. I sure do hope she starts improving for you. 
But congrats on your youngest sons wedding! :dance:


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## helmstead (Oct 2, 2008)

Sounds like a bad case of polio to me. Listeriosis would come with a high fever. Good luck with this. I recently helped a friend pull one of her does through a near deadly case of listeriosis...but she did recover with full function. It takes WAY more thiamine than you'll ever imagine...lots of shots between antibiotics, Banamine...IV fluids...

I was a little concerned about the feed you're using - you say it's lamb feed? Does it contain copper?? If not, I'm sure she's in terrible need of some BoSe as well.


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

vet feels it's a bad case of mastitis - I should have had her checked a couple of weeks ago when I noticed the udder was getting larger, but she was acting so normal. all of the other symptoms are due to being septic from the infection. He said when the e.coli is being killed off, it releases more poison into their system, so it will be a long road to recover and will be up and down. I tubed her tonight successfully - that scares me so much to do. But like the vet said, you'll either kill them by tubing them wrong or kill them if you don't do it at all...so I got my nerve up and just did it!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry...  .....did the vet tell you how to treat the mastitis ? I will pray for you and your girl to get better soon... ray:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I hope you can bring her around....and it is odd to hear of a septis infection without having a temp, and I do wonder the same as helmstead...the type of grain you are giving your goats being labeled for sheep, so chances are she is mineral deficient.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

If this is mastitis it wouldn't be a bad idea to put some Tomorrow in the udder. 

I would also give her a good dose of copper. Copper deficiency has been shown to lead to gangrene mastitis.

:hug:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ashely woudnt she want to use Today not Tomorrow? As Tomorrow is a prevenative as opposed to a treatment like Today is? :shrug:

if this link works -- probably wont -- it is ToDAY®/Cefa-Lak http://www.jefferslivestock.com

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/pro ... UJ6VXCARVB


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

From what I've read Tomorrow is for dry does, and she isn't milking her so I consider that dry. But I could be wrong. :shrug: 

Either one wouldn't hurt


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

tomorrow is just a stronger dose of today. I use tomorrow even on does that are milking. 
beth


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I didnt even know that, good to know


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

When my vet was finishing, he said, "Now you'll probably go online and read all about putting these tubes in her udder..." He knows I check online a lot. But he said not to do it. He's been mainly a cow vet for over 30 years and I trust him for advice on mastitis. 
The doe is doing a little better today. Udder may be a tiny bit smaller. She ate some tonight. Still don't see her drinking so I'm still tubing her with electrolytes and still thiamine, calcium, banamine, probiotics and at least I didn't have to give LA 200 today.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

She's made it this far...and I hope she continues to improve, you are being such a great goat mama, and she knows this too...don't give up as long as she's fighting :hug:


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

did he tell you to milk what she has out? is her udder still hard? Did he say why not to infuse her udder? not second guessing him im just curious to know the why's. 
beth


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

he really didn't say why not to milk her out and why not to use the tubes - but he said it was "good old fashioned" e.coli infection - I would imagine that if you milk it out you have the danger of spreading it?? Cows are vaccinated against the e.coli (not the e.coli strain that humans get though). I've been rubbing liniment on her udder to help stimulate circulation.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

how does he know its a e coli infection? Has he run a test yet? Im just curious trying to learn all i can about goat health for the treatment of my own animals as i dont have that great of a goat vet here.
beth


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

I just trust him that when he saw the discharge that he knew what it was. There aren't a lot of vets that I would trust on just "guessing" at it but I trust him. The discharge was clear and watery - no milk and no thickness at all - honestly I was expecting a thick discharge like other infections.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> did he tell you to milk what she has out? is her udder still hard? Did he say why not to infuse her udder? not second guessing him im just curious to know the why's.
> beth


 you know sparks879...I am wondering the same thing .. :worried: .her vet may know alot about the cow's....well I think?...it is questionable....sorry that is just how I feel..? This is your precious goat....he must not know much in my book about...mastitis....it cannot be left untreated ? It just doesn't make any sense...:shrug:. If you do not treat it...her udder will not be any good ..  ..and she will not be able to feed her kids.. :tears: ..the bag will be dead.....we goat breeders... know this as a fact ........e-coli or not ....she needs treatment right away..if you have to lock her up..... in a sick pen.... I would definitely do that for her...... :sun: ray:


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

I guess you need to go back and read the previous posts - we are treating her and she's responding, but he warned it will be up and down health wise for awhile. He said I should never breed her as one side is not going to be functional and the udder will probably be obviously deformed. Since I had never wanted to breed her anyway, that wasn't a problem. But having a deformed udder in our petting zoo was an issue. It would have been easier to just put her down but I don't give up on my animals. So hopefully she will recover and I'll be able to continue using her - she is a real love bug. But if not, I'll have to try and find a pet home for her.
This vet is a founder of a clinic that has a large animal practice with 6 or 7 vets and a small animal practice too with a lot of other vets. I had originally talked to another vet at the clinic that is good with goats about the precocious udder and he told me to definitely not milk her out (of course that is before we knew mastitis) But years ago, I had a sheep with mastitis and I was told the same thing - don't milk her out. That's the only two cases I've had in 25 years. I know my one friend used to raise dairy goats and she has used the Tomorrow too. 

So I guess there are different treatments and different opinions, but when you pay the vet to come, (I hate to see that bill) I feel I should listen, make suggestions and then we decide together. 
BTW, she drank water today! Yahoo! Maybe I won't need to tube her tomorrow.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> I guess you need to go back and read the previous posts - we are treating her and she's responding


 may I ask what treatment you are using.??...The only treatment's that I know of and a big majority of people know ....is you need to milk them out ....and then put the stuff in...you see I still do not understand.... my personal vet gave me instructions and he said ...you must totally milk her out ..then do treatment ...as with any infection.... it must be removed....



> So I guess there are different treatments and different opinions, but when you pay the vet to come, (I hate to see that bill) I feel I should listen, make suggestions and then we decide together.


 Not all vets are correct about goats..not all are educated with goats.  .they are just learning....I see alot of the goat spot members panicking because you do not milk her out.... :hug: ,but we tried.... that is all we can do....I wish for her ...a full recovery of what she may have.....I am so happy she drank water at least she is feeling better....


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

toth boers I understand you mean well but lets let whatnott make her decision and not put her down for it.

Sometimes there are different treatments for things. If this doesnt work we dont want to be scaring people off from coming back for more advise and suggestions. The vet has seen and felt the animal -- something we all cant do. it isnt my perferred way to treat mastitis but who knows it may not be mastitis.


I missed where you said the discharge was coming from --- her udder or elsewhere?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

OK stacey I understand...


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

thanks Stacey - I'm going to call the vet and ask him tomorrow why he didn't want me to use the tubes.
There really wasn't a discharge - sorry for being confusing. I meant the fluid that he squeezed from her nipples - no sign of milk - just this clear, browish fluid, which I read online is what the e.coli is like. I'll let everyone know what his reasoning is


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh ok --- yah it never hurts to know WHY when you are the one paying the bill and own the animal.


If it is ecoli there is another treatment for that too if you care to know I can look at my stuff to get its name


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

Just talked to the vet. I'll see if I can explain it - right now, her udder is basically full of scar tissue (meat!); for the tubing to work properly there needs to be the opening (or sac area) for the medicine to get in there. Because of the scar tissue, the meds will not be able to penetrate the area. He said it wouldn't hurt to do it, but it's not going to gain much, if any at all. He's not sure if the udder is going to sloth off or if she will always be dragging around this huge scarred udder. And he's still not positive that she's going to make it.
She wasn't doing as well today - temp had dropped and not interested in eating. Although there is fresh poop in her stall. I mixed up some molasses in warm water and put her head down in the bucket. As long as I held the bucket up for her, she drank and drank. I figured that was good and better than tubing her. So will keep up that for awhile.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I am still ray: for her. 

Glad to figure out his reasoning on the Today and Tomorrow stuff. I don't think it did much for Dawn either.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well that makes sense --- see it is always good to take the advise of the one who can see the animal. 

Poor thing, I hope she comes out of this. It must be hard for you to see her suffering so  :hug:


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

well, it's better when you see some improvement - and that's what is happening to your little one.
But i just took out some more warm water and molasses and even though I have to hold the bucket for her for awhile, she then drinks and drinks. Finally, I got up and left and she looked at me and then kept on drinking. she's drinking slowly but this will definitely help dehydration if she'll continue this. So I'm a little encouraged now.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Hmm thats interesting never heard that before. If its a congested udder with scar tissue i have always infused the udder multiple times. It always helps. It gets the bacteria down at the bottem and then continues to work its way up. But along with the infusions i have always done heat packs and lots of massaging....breaking up the swelling. 
AS for her not eating have you tried cud transplants? Its a messy and smelly job but it has saved my does before. When they dont eat the bacteria in their stomach starts to die. And then they cant digest properly. causing them to not want to eat anymore. You watch other animals to bring up cud then poounce and take it out of their mouths. You then put it in the sick animals mouth and get them to eat it. This puts live organisms back in their rumen as well as giving them a partially digested easier to digest meal. 
beth


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Hmm thats interesting never heard that before. If its a congested udder with scar tissue i have always infused the udder multiple times. It always helps. It gets the bacteria down at the bottem and then continues to work its way up. But along with the infusions i have always done heat packs and lots of massaging....breaking up the swelling.
> AS for her not eating have you tried cud transplants? Its a messy and smelly job but it has saved my does before. When they dont eat the bacteria in their stomach starts to die. And then they cant digest properly. causing them to not want to eat anymore. You watch other animals to bring up cud then poounce and take it out of their mouths. You then put it in the sick animals mouth and get them to eat it. This puts live organisms back in their rumen as well as giving them a partially digested easier to digest meal.
> beth


 I totally agree with you ..sparks879


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

Thought I'd try the cud implant idea. Forget the goats - as soon as they see me coming, they run to see if I'm bringing something or else run to the barn - no chewing cud when there is activity. So thought I might have better luck with the sheep - yep, 3 were lying around chewing. But no luck, as soon as I tried to pry the mouth open, they clamped down so hard I couldnt' pry the mouths open and then they were done too with chewing and got up and moved away. I'd like to try it - suppose if I get a llama to spit on me, I could scrape up that!!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I think that is the only time I have heard of someone seeing a llama spitting on then as a good thing.


Any improvements today?


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

no improvements - she's drinking warm water with molasses if I hold the bucket for her and then she drinks and drinks. She'll also eat if I'm holding the dish for her. She's lost so much weight, it's not looking good. My son's wedding is tomorrow so I'm now limited on how much time I can spend with her. Suppose to be headed to the airport and my husband just locked the keys inside the rental car with the motor running - it's going to be a lovely day...


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Wow, im really sorry. Not so good luck. Sorry about the rental! And i supose no spares huh? As for the goat....have you given her any probios? Thats a good start. Or a tube of lamb and kid paste, its suposed to jump start the rumen. Worth a shot. If her rumen totally shuts down youre in for a whole new mess of problems. I know she is drinking the mollasses water really well but i think i would hold off for awhile on the mollasses.....she is eating a lot of sugar with no real food in her body. setting herself up for polio there. maybe see if she would eat some beet pulp. there is a bit of sugar in beet pulp but its a roughage product, closer to hay it has a lot of fiber in it. Just to get something solid in her gut maybe try soaking some alfalfa pellets with the beet pulp as well. If she doesnt start eating soon you are going to lose her. 
Does the LA200 seem to be doing anything? 
Good luck!
beth


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

Doe was not too good on Friday - had to force her to stand up; Saturday, she was standing and did not look as dehydrated and was picking at food. But I had my son's wedding and couldn't be fussing much. My one friend (who has had dairy goats) did feedings for me. I told her that if she holds the dish of food in front of her, she'll eat. But I didn't tell her that I mix DE in with my feed, so when she scooped it out, she thought it didn't look right and maybe was moldy. So she gave her calf starter instead; she ate probably about a cup of calf starter. Then yesterday, I thought she was standing and chewing her cud, but she was just chewing. All day yesterday, just chewing and then foam coming out of the mouth. couldn't get her to drink but was fighting me for another shot of banamine - so I knew she was still fighting to live. But no poop yesterday. This morning, still standing, more foam at mouth, but now gooshy poops like a cow, and not eating. Talked to vet - either calf starter upset rumen or else she's now with an ulcer; but he still wants to give banamine because he said it's the best thing for stimulating them to eat; have been giving probiotics from the beginning and still giving them. At this point, if she has an ulcer, there isn't anything we can do; but if she doesn't I have to get her to turn around and stop foaming and to eat. Am going to tube her again with electrolytes; another banamine; thinking of switching to penG since she's had 3 shots of LA200. He also said it's possible that we're killing of so much bacteria that her system can't handle the poisons. I still think it's the calf starter that caused the problem, but it would only be because it was too rich and coarse for her sytem in her condition. Any other thoughts?
BTW, her name is Hope and we haven't given up hope on her, but sure would like to see some upside swing in improvement and stay up.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Another appetite stimulator is Bcomplex, worth the try since it is a vitamine mix.

Come on Hope you can do this!


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Well, when our doe Promise was on heavy antibiotics for a week - she had terrible ulcers in her mouth, foaming, just the same as your doe. We were advised by the vet to try giving her beer. Something about this "flora" or whatever in the beer would be good for her since she wasn't eating like your doe. Maybe you could try it??


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

The local AGway was closed today for a funeral - so my husband was headed out, so he's suppose to pick up Bounce Back electrolytes, and a new bottle of vitamin B (mine was way outdated); I forgot to tell him to pick up probiotics and I used the last of that last night. So since I was at the grocery store, I picked up a huge container of plain yogurt that has the live cultures. Any idea how much yogurt to give? I gave 30 cc (but that was a guess). Oh, and her temp is down to 100.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If you want to get hay down her...I have a trick with Alfalfa hay leaves...I never thought of it before ..but maybe pure Alfalfa pellets may work better? ..:idea:
A long time ago I had a mature doe that wouldn't eat no matter what I did for her.....It got to the point where I had to get something in her or she would die........well I thought of this idea .......take alfalfa leaves not straw like stuff.....but as I said before maybe pure alfalfa pellets will work... (not grain).......anywayz....take the alfalfa leaves (the good stuff )off of the stems and put in a blender......... blend as much as your going to feed in one setting.....grind it as fine as you can.......get one of those huge syringes... I'm not sure how big .....I am guessing it was a 60 cc...something that will not clog easy.........now add water to the grinded hay or pellets ...blend ............add..enough to make it kinda watery but not to watery......then plunge it up into syringe.....see if it plunges in easy and comes out easy through the syringe....... if not...you may want to either add more water .... or blend some more..... until it is easy to go through the syringe..... 
take a bowel ...and all the blended stuff out with you.. ...pour some in the bowel......
with the syringe ...plunge up some of the mixture....and start giving it to your doe from the back corner of her mouth .....inside a bit ....so she is not spitting it out....do it slowly make sure she swallows...repeat until she is done with the mixture....
I have done this with alfalfa...but you know..... :idea: the pellets may work better.... if you use that ...make it like split pea soup content or close to it... ... 
.......This worked for my doe that was down.... and I did it for a few days and she got her appetite back on her own,,,,I kept hay out for her at all times ,,,so when she was ready she had it available...... I wouldn't advise using grain though


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

well, I don't have any alfalfa here and we don't drink. I was thinking it may work with rabbit pellets.
But I tubed her with 2 qt. Bounce Back - I've had great success with that when I thought baby calves were dying. Within 2 hours, she was standing and nibbling on hay! Gave her B- complex shot and then put an insulated vest on her. She is now wanting to stay under the heat lamp - she was refusing to stay there all morning until the bounce back was given. She wouldn't stand still for temp to be taken - but the diarrhea is worse. Do you think the yogurt may be causing the diarrhea? I wouldn't think so, but it started during the night after I had given her some yogurt.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

how much yogurt did you give her? I cant see it being an issue BUT I never knew that goats could have a low temp and have an infection either :shrug: 

Change in diet can cause diarreah so I guess it is a possibility.

Also have you done a fecal on her or are her lids pale in color (obviously if she isnt feeling well her lids would be pale but it is worth checking if you didnt check before.)


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

I gave her 30 cc yesterday and today - I had no clue how much.
so far her eyelids seem okay and I had just wormed her with valbazen; gums were a little paler today than when the vet was here.
I need to learn to do fecals.
She was nibbling on more hay when I fed everyone else. So there still is Hope for Hope.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

is it soft stools or runny? if it is runny I would be worried about dehydration but if just soft I would attribute it to all the changes she has gone through and the stress of it.


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

it's like cow plop - I didn't see any more fresh poop this evening, but she was back to lying down again and not intersted in eating - and oddly not lying near the heat lamp again.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Could it be cocci since her immune system is prob low?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> well, I don't have any alfalfa here and we don't drink. I was thinking it may work with rabbit pellets.


 I am not sure what rabbit pellets has in it... :scratch:


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

YEAH! I think Hope has turned the corner for recovering!! her poop was really bad this morning. Tonight it is almost normal. She's eating hay; she's eating grain; and it took two of us to hold her to give her penicillin shot tonight - she's a fighter and that's one of the reasons that I couldn't diagnose her problem earlier - you just can't touch her anywhere in the back end - but even if we have to throw her on the ground - she's going to get the last of the penicillin - Thanks everyone for all your help and suggestions.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

that sounds terrific....she does sound like she is going to be OK after all.....fighting you...that's real good....LOL telling her ,"you will get that final shot young lady ....whether you like it or not.... even if I have to hold ya down....I can actually picture that....  :ROFL: good for you...whatknott...  :hug: :thumbup: congrats


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh thats great news! :clap:


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

meant to post sooner but i have been busy, so glad to hear she is doing better. I would limit her grain as she hasnt eaten much in the last few days. too much grain can shock her system kind of like switching feeds suddenly. 
For future refenece make sure your rabbit pellets arnt medcated.
beth


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

I think when my friend fed her the calf starter, her system got all messed up and that's why the diarrhea. But that has stopped and poops are normal ( or else I gave her too much yogurt). I never did give her rabbits pellets and they are not medicated anyway. She has the lamb chow, sheep and goat sweet feed that we mix in with DE - she nibbles on it but does not eat all of it. She's been sitting in front of a bale of hay today and munching on the hay. the bale has been there all week, but this is the first day that she was willing to pull some out to eat it. She has definitely made a big turn around. The only thing I'm confused about is her udder is firmer and larger again; it had been going down somewhat. But she's getting anxious to get out of her stall now to be with her friends - all a good sign.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I'm glad she's looking better. I would really massage some liniment in the udder or put some hot packs on it now. More swelling is going to decrease circulation and once that gets cut off your in trouble.


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

I have been - at least twice a day; some days I rubbed Vicks; some days I used Horse Linament and now I'm using DMSO. The local goat expert told me to use DMSO - but it has swollen more since I started using it - any thoughts?


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

DMSO is great to use on sore joints and muscles i have never heard of using it on a swollen udder. I would have her tested again for mastits. You want to make sure you have that all cleared up. If thats what it is. You only have to milk out a squirt from each side. She could also be impacted in which case the heat packs and liniment will help. I still think you should be trying to get the what milk she has out of her udder. She wont re absorb it and its just sitting in there.
beth


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

I tried several times - there is no milk. I'm switching back to vicks and/or linament. She's still on penicillin one more day.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> DMSO is great to use on sore joints and muscles i have never heard of using it on a swollen udder. I would have her tested again for mastits. You want to make sure you have that all cleared up. If thats what it is. You only have to milk out a squirt from each side. She could also be impacted in which case the heat packs and liniment will help. I still think you should be trying to get the what milk she has out of her udder. She wont re absorb it and its just sitting in there.
> beth


 I agree DMSO is for joints and muscles .. I have never heard of it ...being used on the udder...that would be very uncomfortable and feel hot .to a very sensitive area of the goats skin......it may irritate the udder...I would think...  .I have used it on a horse leg before ...I wore gloves to administer it... and you can still feel the heat..... :shrug:

I also agree ....that she may still have mastitis,...It...thickened..because of not milking...sometimes you have to work at it ....to get the cheesy stuff out....it may be clogging the door for some milk trapped to come out...The initial plug may be blocking the opening.. :hug:


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

I had never heard of dmso but the local expert goat lady (who helped me out with thiamine) said when she had a goat with bad mastitis, she rubbed dmso and dexamathosone on the udder and it was great. I trust this lady. I bought the roll-on applicator of dmso and put a little on my hands today - didn't do a thing to me - no tingling, no warmth - 
Goat is doing well and that's what counts. She's eating well, still very thin, wants to be out with her friends. But it's snowing here and very cold - won't be out of her stall for some time.


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

haven't posted for awhile. After a week of LA200 and seeing some improvemnt, but not great; I switched to penicillin twice a day. Some days doing "okay", some days not doing well at all. Still giving probiotics, tubing her with bounceback a couple of times. But only picking at food. Her udder is so hard and swollen it looks like it's going to burst. Yesterday, I decide to try the Tomorrow (even though my vet had said it wouldn't do any good) but at this point I figured I didn't have anything to lose. I first squeezed out the clear fluid in the nipple (no milk and only a small amount of liquid until I couldn't get any more out), so then tried to put tube in hole - I couldn't get it in!! My husband is holding her at the head, I'm straddling her, but I couldn't get it into any hole; some small amount of blood started forming on tip; I tried several times, I think I may have gotten some in, but couldn't tell if it was on the outside or if some went inside but it only would have been a tiny bit.
BUT this morning, she was really really good; she was eating hay when I went out, she had finished her feed over night. I gave her some more feed and she woofed it down. Left her in the stall until afternoon, and then walked her out and she wanted to be with the other goats so I left her with them for several hours. Put her back in the stall for the night (she's wearing an insulated vest and has a heat lamp) she's very thin. I had to give her another LA 200 shot and it's so hard to find a place to give it any more. She has so many swollen lumps and nodules from all the shots she's had. 
So I don't know if I got enough from the tube in to help her (although udder is still very swollen and looks ready to burst) or if the LA 200 is finally kicking in, or if she'll be worse again tomorrow.
I did some more research online and I'm thinking she has blue mastitis - anyone ever deal with this kind of mastitis? And why did I find it impossible to put the tube in the hole in her nipple? Is there really that much scar tissue that it won't go in? but why could I suppress some fluid then?
getting tired and weary.....


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

You poor dear :hug: what an ordeal! I don't have any help for you, but I've been watching this thread and I thought you needed a hug. You've worked really hard for this girl and I'm sure she knows it. If it were me, I'd use some more of the Tomorrow, she seemed better after you used it...it will be hard to get it in because of the congestion...keep milking her out if you can. Good luck, I'll ray: for her recovery.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

tomorrow is made for cows...in which there teat orifice is much bigger....you may be able to get a smaller tip from your vet...small enough.... to get it into the goats orifice......that could be why you are having so much trouble getting it in..... :hug:


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

how do the rest of you do it when you ouse Today or Tomorrow?


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Blue bag is gangrene. I've dealt with it, but the outcome ultimately was death. She wouldn't eat, drink and her udder was very very hard and swollen. Also dark dark purple/black on one side. She told me it was time and I let her go.  

As for getting the stuff in her udder. It is pretty hard. Make sure you clean off the end of her teat with alcohol before so that you don't introduce anymore bacteria. You need to hold the teat with two fingers and slide the tomorrow tip up into it. You don't need to go in very far. Did you just take the little cap off the tomorrow or the whole cap?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Blue bag is gangrene.


A link to pics of what it looks like....Does your doe look like that?

http://www.saanendoah.com/gmastitis.html


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Whats the temperature of her udder when you touch it? Does it feel cold? If so i would say you are headed for gangrene, which like others said is not a good outcome. I have only dealt with blue mastitis once, i caught it extremly early and aggressively started treatment with LA 200 vitamin c and today. It did clear up. I imagine there is some scar tissue but i think a lot of it it inpacted pus and fluid. I would heat pack her as many times a day as you an. Hold towels as hot as you can stand all over her udder as many times as you can a day while still keeping yourself sane. as well as lots of massaging. this will help break up the crud and make it easier to milk out. I know its really hard but youre doing great! :hug: with the today its easier to crouch under her while she is on the stand and out it in her udder. its a liquid in the tube so you should be able to get most of it in there. One tube per side, and then massage more. You will hear it swishing around. you may have to wait ten days and then do another three day treatment. 
Im keeping you in my thoughts!
beth


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

well those were gross photos - so I guess I don't have blue mastitis. Her udder is still warm but it's so hard and full that I really wonder if the skin won't split open. I tried the Today again - still no succcess - I don't have a milk stand - I never milked a goat and I don't plan on it!! At this point, I'm just trying to save her life. She wasn't as good today as she was yesterday. 
I'll try the hot compresses but when it's so swollen, are you sure that's what i should do? - I'm thinking when when have things swollen, we usually put cold packs on them. That's why I kept using linament rubs although that does get warmer later.
thanks for everyone's input.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I think there really is nothing in her udder. When Dawn was swollen with it there was nothing in her udder. But it was HUGE like there was. It is just the swelling. The swelling is what kills the blood supply. I might try some cold packs. It could help. Maybe alternate cold packs with warm packs.

For the tomorrow, you need to kinda wiggle the tip to get it in. I did twist a _little_ bit to get it in too.


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

talked to vet again (I've got another goat problem that is totally unrelated - just what I needed); I told him that it is so swollen that it looks like the skin could burst - he said that could happen, or a small opening appear and pus drain out - doesn't that sound like a fun thing to happen on Thanksgiving Day - oh, well, here's hoping for the best. I put some warm compresses on her udder; she didn't object. Something is going to have to happen to this udder - she can't live with it the way it is.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

If it does split then that would actually be good in some ways. It would help with circulation which the swelling is cutting off.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Remember to use diluted water/benadine ....or those sanitized wipes ....if you are using benadine........make it looks like a weak tea... clean her teats before......and after milking.....
if ...her orifice is plugged.......... and you have never milked a goat before .......you have to get the wax type plug out of the orifice.....you may have to scrape it gently with your finger or finger nail ...be gentle.........sometimes it does take a while to remove..  ..to find out.... if it is unplugged.... gently squeeze at the top of the teat area......with your thumb and index finger....(to trap the milk in the teat)..... ...you should feel and see the teat .....kinda ballooning........with your other three fingers....gently close your fingers to squeeze the teat..... if nothing comes out and it just balloons...then you did not open the orifice....keep trying until ...you squeeze out some milk or whatever is going to come out of there...........

If you are putting meds in the teats....use some KY jelly on the tip ....to help it slide in easier.... 

This is A video.... on how to milk a goat........






hope this helps :worried:


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## Sybil (Dec 21, 2007)

My doe with gangrene was caught early but took about 2 weeks to start eating. Only would nibble on hay and eventually got back onto grain. She had a doe kid on her who was 7 weeks old and would not take a bottle and was a July kid. My vet said it looked like e-coli infection and I had already started her on PCN the day before so I didn't want to spend the money on a culture when the antibiotics were already started and she appeared to be responding. Since she was a milking doe we put a teat tube in her and used twice a day udder infusions. Would open up the teat tube and let it drain and apply another tube and close the tube. On the 4th day of treatment she still was eating well and we added Bvits and dexamethasone (banamine is good too) With the gangrene the body starts to wall off the infection at the site. Half her udder scabbed up but at least she continued to milk enough to keep the doe kid growing. I believe a month out it started to drain infection and she had a strong odor so took her in and the vet removed all the dead tissue and it looks wonderful now...still a small area to heal. Expensive but live doe! Since she has hung on this long maybe she just needs some more time. Also my doe did not like to be locked up from the herd...she ate better with competition.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Remember to use diluted water/benadine ....or those sanitized wipes ....if you are using benadine........make it looks like a weak tea... clean her teats before......and after milking.....
> if ...her orifice is plugged.......... and you have never milked a goat before .......you have to get the wax type plug out of the orifice.....you may have to scrape it gently with your finger or finger nail ...be gentle.........sometimes it does take a while to remove..  ..to find out.... if it is unplugged.... gently squeeze at the top of the teat area......with your thumb and index finger....(to trap the milk in the teat)..... ...you should feel and see the teat .....kinda ballooning........with your other three fingers....gently close your fingers to squeeze the teat..... if nothing comes out and it just balloons...then you did not open the orifice....keep trying until ...you squeeze out some milk or whatever is going to come out of there...........
> 
> If you are putting meds in the teats....use some KY jelly on the tip ....to help it slide in easier....
> ...


Some things are mentioned above of what to do.......
tie her up....also tie up the back leg of the side you will be working on... and pull it upwards a bit off the ground........ so she cannot move..or kick your hand away.....
milk her out completely ......it may be really thick and stringy ....like cottage cheese or thicker ....it will be harder to get it out ....... get out what you can......(try)......It will be 2 to 3 x harder then it would of been last week so really work at it.....
Even if you have to get someone over there .......that knows how to milk....have them try......
wear gloves and be sure it is in a area away from the other goats...
put 10 to 20cc penG into a syringe .......buy those smaller white tips....you get from a vet. ...they come in individual packages...buy a bunch of them...
......put... KY on the white tip... don't be shy ...and some on her teat end itself......now..try putting the tip into the teat orifice......you may have to work at it wiggle it around....when you get it in....then attach the syringe with the penG in it ...to the tip... that is inserted into the teat orifice.... inject it ...into the teat...............take out the syringe ...with the tip and hold the teat shut..so the pen G will not come back out...work from the teat up ..then to the udder...massaging ....without pushing out the penG......really get into it.......do this for about 5 to 10 minutes......do it on both sides .. be sure to use a different syringe and tip for each side each day...never re-use them.........do this 2x a day ....for at least 4 to 5 days............it will be hard work and time...it isn't easy.....after a while of treatments.... her orifice.... will start to get sore and bleed....

It may be to late ....but maybe you could give it a try....? I am not a vet...this advice is from my DH that grew up with cattle and goats.... he recommended this treatment ....so good luck....This is what I would do... if it were my goat.....you may choose different... ray:


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I am all for milking her, but when I dealt with Dawn I only got milk out the first day(maybe a cup worth and she usually made about 3 cups per side.), then maybe 3ccs of yellow stuff and then 1cc or less of clear liquid. The other side of her udder also dried up within a day. So I really don't think that there is any milk left in there. 

Now if the teat balloons up as toth said then there is milk(or something) in there that needs to come out. But if it doesn't then I don't think there is anything in there except maybe some tomorrow. 

The pen G is a good idea. I wasn't sure if you could put that in there or not.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> The pen G is a good idea. I wasn't sure if you could put that in there or not.


our vet also said it was OK....


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

No, I wasn't saying you were wrong. I just wondered about it when Dawn was sick and now I know that I can put it in there for next time. :wink:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> No, I wasn't saying you were wrong. I just wondered about it when Dawn was sick and now I know that I can put it in there for next time. :wink:


 :thumbup:


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

Her one teat was very swollen (the other one is very small and almost hidden underneath this swollen udder (apparently the mastitis is only on one side). I have been able to squeeze that teat to get some out - but it's just the clear liquid stuff and very little comes out - I doubt if it's even 1 cc that I'm able to get out. I think I'm going to stick to hot compresses, linament and keep trying to get Tomorrow into it - although it doesn't seem successful. I'll try some vaseline on tip too. If I could get more out of the udder, I'd try the pen, but there just wouldn't be any room for it to go inside the udder. It's suppose to be warmer today, so may leave her outside again. I would like to have her in with some goats, but with e.coli, I really don't know if I should do that. If it seems like the udder is shrinking (i'll be so excited if it does), I'll see if my one friend can come over and see if she can "milk" any better than i do - I should clarify my milking skills...I've milked a sheep or goat or even a llama or donkey and horse - but only when I needed colostrum, never to milk an animal because I wanted a lot of milk for my own use.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Her one teat was very swollen (the other one is very small and almost hidden underneath this swollen udder (apparently the mastitis is only on one side). I have been able to squeeze that teat to get some out - but it's just the clear liquid stuff and very little comes out - I doubt if it's even 1 cc that I'm able to get out. I think I'm going to stick to hot compresses, linament and keep trying to get Tomorrow into it - although it doesn't seem successful. I'll try some vaseline on tip too. If I could get more out of the udder, I'd try the pen, but there just wouldn't be any room for it to go inside the udder. It's suppose to be warmer today, so may leave her outside again. I would like to have her in with some goats, but with e.coli, I really don't know if I should do that. If it seems like the udder is shrinking (i'll be so excited if it does), I'll see if my one friend can come over and see if she can "milk" any better than i do - I should clarify my milking skills...I've milked a sheep or goat or even a llama or donkey and horse - but only when I needed colostrum, never to milk an animal because I wanted a lot of milk for my own use.


 If it is only one side with the problem ...then...by all means .....you do not have to treat it...or mess with it........If your friend can get out more milk.thick stuff ect......that would be great....just try your best .................
If the tomorrow isn't doing any good I would stop that.........and would recommend...trying the pen treatment..(attached is a website on the treatment of e-coli...using pen) ...If you can't seem to get any more milk or thick stuff out ..of the teat...I would try to at least....try...to put the penG in and see how much.... it will take.....every time you do the hot compresses...then do the massaging treatments with the pen trapped in there ....may improve each time.... to milk even a little out ....then put whatever you can in... with the penG each time ....she may improve....
I do agree that you should keep you away from your other goats...  but you should let her out in the nice weather ....so she could enjoy it..... 

e-coli....Treatment is penicillin infusions and injections. scroll down.. about a little over...half way ...down the page under:
DETAILED TREATMENT OF MASTITIS-CAUSING ORGANISMS:
I am not a vet ....but my DH has successfully done this treatment before....Good luck :hug: ray: 
http://www.goatwisdom.com/udder_care.html


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

How is she doing?

I was looking through I new goat book my mom got me. It's called Natural Goat care.

It has some things you can do for Mastitis in it so I thought I would list them here and you can pick through what you want to use, if anything.

Apple cider vinegar 10-20ml a day
Parsley
5 grams of IV vitamin C and oral vitamin C
A heaping teaspoon of dolomite
3ml of hydrogen peroxide diluted 50% right into the teat orifice.


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

thanks for asking. Since I posted last time, I've been trying to "milk" out as much as I can each time I'm with her. I still could only get a few squirts and then it would stop. On Saturday, she was acting almost normal - knocking me over for feed, eating everything in sight; it was warm, so left her outside and she grazed all day. Sunday it was cold and rainy all day so she stayed in. The udder is shrinking some now. I'm only putting linament on. The tip broke off the "tomorrow" so until I decide to buy more, that's not going to be used. I was not able to "milk" out the clear liquid today. My friend finally came today to see if she could milk any out - she only got a couple of drops. So at least I know it's not from my lack of milking skills. But the udder was smaller than it had been yesterday and definitely smaller than it's been in a long time.

But as long as I see the continual improvements in her attitude and appetite and also the udder shrinking, I'm relieved.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

good luck...... ray:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh glad to know she is doing better. Any improvement is always nice


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Glad to hear of Hope's improvement...praying that she continues to progress in being healthy.


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## whatknott (Feb 22, 2008)

Udder is getting a little tiny bit smaller - was able to express some clear liquid yesterday and today again - but not much; but attitude is great; she wants out with the others but it's so nippy and she's still so thin that she just shivers so figure I better keep her inside for awhile yet. But this morning she was vocal when she saw me - so I figured that was another good sign, until she wouldn't shut up! Then I realized that shew as in heat!! Nothing more mournful than a nubian doe in heat!!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

That is wonderful news! You are such a good goat mommy too....you never gave up on her! Continue with what you are doing and she'll be packing on the pounds in no time :hug:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Sweet!


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Great news. 

RunAround, I LOVE Natural Goat care.. I use it all the time.


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