# complete aggravation!



## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

oh my gosh

found out why i haven't been able to sell my stock.. there are 35 ads around where i live for "breeding quality" goats

i.e. mutts with balls

and they are asking 60 a pair , or 45 each or 50 each and i eve nsaw one for a "purebred" boer buck for 100 dollars


and i had a lady email me today for a breeding service, and i told her all the stuff she had to do before the goat could come( health tests CAE CL ect) and she goes.. but its just a pet.

so i then explain to her i have thousands of dollars invested into this and i cannot risk breeding to someones pet goat and losing everything..

she then replies that she would do the health tests and such because she understands as a breeder of labs, and then asked me to sell her a pet quality buck kid in the spring with no papers for cheap.

so i just sent one back saying i don't keep anything intact that ii wouldn't use in my herd, and that a pet quality buck is not an option. lets see what she says


soo aggravated



this week is bad for me.. yesterday i found one of my pullets decapitated in a water bucket.. i guess she escaped and the hawk or something got her


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

sorry your going through all of this, must be really aggravating!


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I have that happen alot to - where they want unregistered "bucks". I will admit, I sold one - but she breeds pygmy, he was a 2 day old bottle baby, and she had him wethered later on!


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Gosh, that sucks. 

Every goat is breeding quality in some peoples eyes.... aahhhggg :angry: and a lot of goat people think every doe is worth breeding year after year. I can't stand to see people selling intact crappy unregistered bucks/bucklings....drives me nuts. And people do it all the time! I do have to admit....I sold one unregistered purebred buckling this year to a friend....he was NICE and out of a registered parent so I figured I would let him go.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

SDK...I really hate competing against those ads to....people rather get goats for free or next to nothing...that really does suck...  ..It's just bad timing....
as for the lady.....you are so right ...if she doesn't want to go by your rules .......she can just go get one .....at the auction I would say..... 



> North Star Boer Goats http://rockn-h-ranch.bravehost.com/


Katrina .... :shades: ..I see your North Star Boer Goats ...when will you be able to change the title on your website...?


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

dont know yet, havent checked it out....

but yeah, people sell goats that arent worth breeding every day. kinda sad, that theyre not really improving the breed standard.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

i wouldn't have a problem selling a really nice unregistered buck, but thats not the case

she wants a PET QUALITY buck. to breed.. some smart lab breeder she is


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## jordan (Nov 22, 2007)

KW Farms said:


> Every goat is breeding quality in some peoples eyes.... aahhhggg :angry: and a lot of goat people think every doe is worth breeding year after year. I can't stand to see people selling intact crappy unregistered bucks/bucklings....drives me nuts. And people do it all the time! I do have to admit....I sold one unregistered purebred buckling this year to a friend....he was NICE and out of a registered parent so I figured I would let him go.


Boy, am I with you on that!!! Makes me even crazier when they sell crappy, intact registered bucklings! :hair: 
I also made the collasal mistake of selling a buckling once whose dam didn't have what I considered a great udder even though the genetics were there (her sister had a really nice udder) to someone I know. She had been bred to a buck who did have great udder genetics so the buckling had potential. This buckling was way to cute for words, unbelievable conformation (has won numerous grands and reserves in the show ring) and wild markings, but in my book, his dam's udder painted wether on his head. Long story short, she talked me into selling him intact, I did it with the verbal aggreement that she wether any bucks out him until such time as she has seen numerous daughters freshen. She agreed, but has since told others that she will sell bucks out him and that he belongs to her now and that I have no right to dictate what she does with him :veryangry: Luckily, he's only produced does so far...

Lessons learned! I should have sold him on contract and I will NEVER again sell a buckling whose dam does not have an excellent udder regardless of his potential.

Lois
http://www.fallcreekfarm.net


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## rebelshope (Sep 21, 2008)

I think it is really great that you are sticking to your standards. It is difficult but there are people out there that don't care about what they sell and those that don't care about what they buy, you can sleep better at night knowing that you aren't one of them. Also that you are supply good quality goats for people who want them. I hope there are more around you that do.

I am sorry that you are having a hard time selling your stock, but there are folks out there that do want good quality stock and they are going to be looking for you. Thinking of it this way. That other breeder has to sell six goats for every one doe, or two to three bucks for every one buck or weather you sell in order to roughly make the same amount of money.

I really do hope that things pick up for you.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I wouldnt argue with her and make an issue of the pet quality. Tell her that you only sell registered bucks and then only those that you would use yourself. 

I have sold unregisterd bucks intact and I have sold registered bucks intact ...... that almighty dollar is more important sometimes when you NEED the money and they are willing to pay your price. Call me an aweful bad breeder and how could you, but sometimes putting food in the goats mouths is important!


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## FunnyRiverFarm (Sep 13, 2008)

SDK--I can see why you'd be frustrated...and I'm very sorry about your little chicky...  

All I can really say is...Try to do whatever you can to educate people...many have the mind set that a "goat is a goat" because they just don't know any better. If someone thinks that all goats are the same, of course they're going to try to buy the least expensive one they can find. If a buyer can see what sets your goats apart from the others and how they can benefit from it, it will be easier for them to justify spending the extra money. 

Of course, there will always be some who just want the cheapest goat they can find, no matter what the quality is...but I think, in general, if potential buyers knew more about health, conformation, production, etc. they'd be willing to spend the money to buy higher quality animals and strive to produce them. 

When I had goats before, I used to make really nice flyers with good conformation pics and points basically explaining why the goats were worth the money I was asking for. I hung them up locally and gave some to friends/family to hang up where they lived. A lot of people I talked to didn't even realize that there were goat shows outside of the county fair! They had no idea of the quality of animals available...before I informed them of these things...they probably would have settled for any goat. 

It worked pretty well--I always found homes for my goaties...of course, that was a few years ago when the economy wasn't as messed up...


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

I dont sell registered bucks as nothing that i wouldnt keep myself, as the buck carries my herd name, he can be traced back to me. I am breeding for quality not quantity. i will sell a decent un registered buck, as none of my does are of poor quality. 
But i really get sick of the people that want cheap does. The first thing i ask when people come to look is how much are they willing to spend. That way i can get an idea, then i explain to them thats its definatly worth it to pay a little more to get the quality of a nicer animal. They will have longer years of lactation more kids easier kiddings and less vet bills. Most people do understand this after i explain it. I dont charge an arm and a leg for my animals, as of now my milkers are between one fifty and three hundred depending on how they turn out. Kids tend to run two fifty to three hundred, as i would liek to think that with the quality of bucks im using they are an improvement over their dam. But for the most part i have weeded out my stock that is nice but nothing special.
beth


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

i told her i wouldn't sell any buck intact unless i was willing to use him with my own animals

i then offered her my two wethers to keep the goat company, since she is by herself


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## Laurel_Haven (Oct 20, 2007)

I do understand what you are saying, but if you are having a hard time selling goats at the moment, why turn down this woman’s reservation for a buckling? Couldn’t you sell her a quality buckling, and my definition of quality is (great genetics, great conformation, & dam has exceptional udder) at a reduced price without papers so she could use him as a ‘pet quality‘ buckling ? Just because she is asking for “pet quality’ doesn’t mean you have to sell her an awful buck from a dam with poor genetics or udder. Just a bit cheaper without papers. :shrug: 

I am going to be completely honest here… This is just the standards I go by within my own herd, not saying anyone else’s way is wrong… just may be different than mine. 
IMO not every doe that kids is worthy of producing “bucks” and not every buck born should stay intact. Only a select few in my opinion. We as breeders are to be breeding for improvement in the breed and how can that be done if we don’t weed out the faults. I would never sell a buckling from my herd with papers that does not come from an exceptional milker with an exceptional udder and genetics as that buck will carry my herd name so he MUST be something I would be proud to sell or something I would use in my own herd. Otherwise he would be wethered.

But the problem I have is I wind up with buckling that are all that and should remain intact to become future herdsires, but wind up being wethered each season because I don’t get enough sales for bucks as I do does or wethers… But I can make more money selling a buck kid of quality that should be a “buck“ (great genetics, great conformation, & dam has exceptional udder) without papers as a “pet” than I can as a wether. Out of 12 males born, only 3 were sold as bucks the other 9 were wethered. And I would have loved to see at least 3 more of them be sold as bucks with or without papers, I regretted wethering them, but at 8 weeks old all bucks that do not sell by then are wethered regardless of quality.

So I would sell a buck as a pet without papers at a price less than a registerable buck but more than a wether to someone that don‘t have registered does yet wants to breed their does for milk. So couldn’t you leave a buck intact that you otherwise would anyway and just sell him cheaper without papers but more than you would if he was a wether? That is unless you have no problem selling every buck every season. :dance:


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

the issue i have with selling her a buck is . she's obviously going to breed her goats, and just cause me more issues with sales down the road, and i think if your going to breed, you should breed for a purpose, not just to have cute babies and make a quick buck

that and i'm big on culling bucks heavy, i think im the last six years there's only been 3 kids i thought were buck quality, and i wethered two and gave one to a friend who couldn't afford to buy one. and i've already gotten two reservations for buck kids in the spring from other local breeders and i've only got three does kidding, one of which i would not consider keeping any bucks out of. and the only issue i have with money is i need my boers to go, the 5 of them eat 3 x more than the 13 nigerians. if they were gone it wouldn't be any trouble


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree SDK...you are 100% right on that issue... :thumbup:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

SDK and Laurel - I understand where both of you are coming from. I typically wether 99% of the boys also that are born here either because they are not of quality or because they are purchased as wethers. However, Laurel has a great point. What if they want a buck to be able to reproduce for milk consumption? Some do not want to have to take their girls to someone else's home to be bred and it is easier for them to have their own buck on site for rotation breeding.

SDK - it is completely up to you if you wanted to sell a buckling as unregistered - but I doubt that it would effect the market for selling your goaties later on. I would find out what her intentions are. You never know - it might be something that could benefit you both  Just a thought.

If I have a kid born that I don't care if it is sold with or without papers - I give that option of purchasing without papers with option to purchase papers within 1 year for an additional price. Alot of times people can not afford the "registered" price off of the bat, but will come for the papers in a couple months.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

i to am big on culling bucks. i have a single buck with my herd name on him and thats simply because i was holding him intact for someone to use as a cart goat. they were going to have him surgically whethered after he grew to be a pretty good size. he bred one of my does through the fence. Harmony kidded with the only doe that spring. It was a given i would keep her. that was the only reason that boy got registered. He actually put out a nice doe kid. And i still have several going back to him. 
But needless to say i havnt kept anymore. We do have one from last spring that we are debating on useing but we are waiting if not he will go in the freezer. 
But there are people out there that dont show, and for them one of your pet quality buck kids may be a huge improvement over the srock that they have. You dont have to have a buck out os a SGCH doe thats a 5* milker to make imporvements. And some people want improvements in other areas, like milk production, maybe her does have toes that splay out and one of your buck kids couple help to improve that...you can only improve so much in one generation.
beth


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Thank goodness I only have a small herd! I know I have pets that supply me with the milk I love....and now with my only registered pair I guess I will eventually have the same dilemma....I know my goats are not perfect and I have NEVER sold a buckling...always wethers...because even though the dams udders were suiting me with the capacity, they are not "purebreds".....The only buckling I kept ever is Teddy out of Bootsie....he has been bred with Angel for March kids...and once I see these kids it will determine wether or not he keeps his "boys". Pets are what they are, loveable and enjoyable and I have not raised my prices AT ALL in the 6 years my girls have been producing for me....Even though I still get questioned on why so much? Does are $85 and wethers are $65...some people don't realize the time and money it takes to ensure a healthy herd. As I mentioned, I sell pets because I can't afford to keep the offspring neccessary to have my girls produce the sweet milk that I enjoy. And Binky will be a third freshener in March, I can't wait to see what everyone thinks of her udder this time around....I really liked the capacity and attachments last time, hopefully this time is even better.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

i understand that some people jsut want bucks for milk production purposes. but this lady just wants pets, and to make pets, and to sell off all the babies. that is why i think wethers would be better. then the doe isn't constantly pregnant and the babies are sold off at ridiculous prices..

i have two other people who are looking into the goats for milk purposes, and down the line, i would probably sell them a buck with no papers easy, if he was good enough.

i'm just saying this lady is like the other 90% of the "breeders" down here and only in it for money..like a puppy mill


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

SDK...this isn't directed to you, just wanted to make a note. 

Personally,,,even if someone needed the money now, if the buck, in your opinion isn't buck quality I wouldn't sell him,,,especially if he's to be used as a buck. It will be WAY better in the long run. There won't be as many goats for way to cheap and there will be a smaller amount if you wether the buck kids. JMHO. 

EDITED to add: You would wind up making more money in the end, if money was a concern, rather than getting a couple hundred more selling buck kids.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Whew, my head is kinda spinning from catching up on all these posts. I think it is very good of you SDK to think this through. This particular person, I would not sell a buck kid to. . . . the last thing needed is a breeder who just wants babies, babies, and more babies to make money. That's not responsible of her. That will make it difficult for your sales later on, especially if she is really close to you.

You seem like a very reponsible breeder and I commend you for that.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes, if she is just wanting a buck to purposefully keep breeding for profit and not for quality and milk use - then I agree - I wouldn't sell her a buck either. You are really looking and worried about your goaties and that is commendable.


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## Laurel_Haven (Oct 20, 2007)

Now that I know the true intentions of what this woman wants a buck for... I have to agree, you made a wise choice by refusing to sell her a buck. :thumbup:


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

this is the kind of ads i'm going against

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/grd/920415299.html

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/grd/917301958.html

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/grd/909128882.html

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/grd/916531123.html

so upsetting...

cause here's mine..

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/grd/924016941.html


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Wow. That must be so frustrating having to sell animals when those cheap goats are out there. I rarely see an ad around here for goats that cheap. . . . even wethers are typically sold for at least $75 around here. 

You can tell the difference in your animals from the pics though. . . . that first ad, those goats look very unhealthy, too skinny, and wormy. . . . your goat's coats are shiny and they just all-around look better. You take good care of them! 

If I were you, I'd work hard to educate more people (try putting ads up in feedstores, etc) that getting healthier goats from the start saves a ton of problems later on. I think that FunnyRiver mentioned this already. . . . Also, from what I've noticed with CraigsList people, many are just looking for a cheap bargain and a lot of them just plain waste your time. Not that I haven't met a lot of nice people through CL, about 70% of our sales are through them. I would definitely try putting ads in feedstores though.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

whats wrong with the buck's horns in the first ad? they look really weird. 

everyone should try to educate the public on how to keep healthy goats. instead of talking / complaining we need to get out there and makes sure goats are kept healthy and happy, as impossible as it is to save 'every' goat we could at least educate a few farms/ pet homes into knowing how to properly raise them. without tons of medications and drugs. -sorry for the rant,


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Those other ads for boers look aweful!!! I agree they look sick and just plain icky. I will take the Blackbelly sheep though - LOL! Yummy good food.

I know that I personally have been placing ads on CL for helping other farms to do low cost blood draws, hoof trims, vaccinating, collecting and prepping fecals for the lab - ect. Although I have only gone to a couple farms, I have been able to educate many people on caprine health - and hopefully am making a difference.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Wow, I feel so lucky now...we usually don't get goat ads on our local CL. That must terribly frustrating! Those goats they're selling look like auction goats! Yikes!

Allison, that's great you're going around to help w/ goats and educate...we need more people willing to do that....It does make a difference!!


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Yah, it is alot of fun - and actually that is how I have reservations on some of my 2009 kids. And, word is getting around about me up here - so it is a win - win situation for all


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> I have to let go becuase of money problems. They are full blooded, healthy and great breeders.


This phrase is from the 1st CL ad ,,,,,,,this person says ...they are heathly? :shocked: wow I hate to see his other version of unhealthy.....  This person also said they have money problems...it looks like ....that is why they are selling them ..that cheap because ...they cannot care for them proper.......The buck pic of his horns ...they do look quite strange....

SDK .....your goats don't compare to those....you have beautiful healthy goats....your selling quality ....not sickly animals...it is hard to compete against the cheap goats I know.....but if I was buying I would definitely pay more for yours.. that are nice and healthy ....compared to ones that are sick and may die.....but alot of people think ...well.... I will get more per head by paying the cheaper price....they want quantity.... not quality.....and I believe that is so wrong.....you get what you pay for ...I always say....They are suppose to be meat goats...so where is the meat in the first ad...now that is scarey ... :worried:


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

That is really nice of you Allison. My aunt helps us out. . . . she is a vet tech and draws blood for us to test. She's coming on Monday to test Lyla to see if she is preggo. I've always encouraged her to offer that on CL. It's good of you to do that and educate more people.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

try advertizing on http://www.goatfinder.com or http://www.goatshopper.com or http://www.goatseeker.com those are more where you will find responsible people willing to pay your price.

Craigs List is for cheep things -- people are looking for deals not for top quality breeding goats.


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## heathersboers (Sep 5, 2008)

I know it is aggravating, but like everyone else said -look at the quality of the goats being sold-they are CULLS!! They also look wormy- Here is one goat that I did buy cheap-i felt sorry for her and she was soooo sweet-$100 -100% reg boer doe-Emily Elizabeth-she was wormy and could hardly stand-she is the dam to the kid in my signature. If I knew what I know now back then about diseases and such-I wouldn't have bought her-but I'm glad I did!!! Some cheap goats are deals, but you have to be careful-most of the time, you get what you pay for-some people just want "a goat" , but there are breeders and individuals that will pay for quality-all we can do is do what we feel is best for our herd to improve-before and after pics of Emmy


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

.....wow what a difference feeding and worming makes....Emily Elizabeth.. is gorgeous... and a good producer as well...  you did get a very good deal...but not all ..may turn out as well....


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I bought 4 registered Nigi does (3 - 2year olds and 1 - 7 month olds) for $175 for all of them. That included their Cl/CAE/Johnes testing!! They were in great health and very nicely taken care of!!!

So I agree - sometimes you can get "lucky" but most are culls!


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

well i've lowered my pricing to 850 for all 5..then 750 for the 4 does, 600 for three, 400 for two, and 300 for a doe and the wether

i also listed them on the sites stacey reccomended

too bad i can't change the boers into nigerians. i've pretty much sold all but two of the nigerians i had for sale


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> well i've lowered my pricing to 850 for all 5..then 750 for the 4 does, 600 for three, 400 for two, and 300 for a doe and the wether


wow SDK ...sounds like an auction.. without any buyers...I am so sorry... you are having so much trouble selling them....


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I am sorry that you are not able to find buyers - keep your head up - they will show!

Stacey - the goatshopper.com link is weird - is that the correct web address? Just thought I would ask.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Stacey - the goatshopper.com link is weird - is that the correct web address? Just thought I would ask.


 it is like an advertising page or something..


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

yea that one didn't work

since i'm having so much trouble selling them.. im now just looking for trades for the most part.. found a guy up in escalon that has a nice pen for sale or trade.. so i emailed him asking if he would want to trade some goats for it


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

That would be a great deal.. at least you do not have to feed a pen..LOL.. :thumbup: ....be sure it is of equal value....or close to it as possible... so neither party is cheated...


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

i know! and best part is i could raise a steer again in a year or so!.. we hate eating beef we didn't raise... or if i keep having dog issues i could get my llama!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Raising a steer would be great... and cut down on the food bill ...I don't blame you.... on not wanting to eat beef ...you don't raise....it is scary ...with mad cow and all....


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

eh they just taste better when there fed showfeed.. better marbling.. 

its a pretty nice cage.. but hes all the way up in escalon :sigh: 

if he were able to meet me in like bakersfield i could do it...

i mean its a really nice cage..and i really want it


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

that is an solid looking cage...looks real good SDK ...I hope you can get it...  

question : what would you feed the steer... I know you mentioned showfeed...do you feed hay or? how much of each and for how long..?


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

That is a really nice pen. . . . did you list on your CraigsList ad that you are willing to trade? I think you mentioned before that hay is really expensive down where you are, maybe see if someone will trade hay for goats (if you even need hay).


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

i hope so too


usually we get our calves at around 500 lbs.. 

if you do i feed showmaster calf starter or heifer developer till they reach about 750 -800 at about 10 -12 lbs a day

and they get a flake of teff, or bermuda hay.. you can do three or four way hay.. but never alfalfa.. too rich.. makes them really sick


if you get your calf at about 800 i would start it on showmaster finisher at 16 lbs a day with half a flake of hay per day.. 

this way you get the marbling nice and juicy..

then i would butcher at 1100 -1300 lbs


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

yea i put i was open to bargain.

i found this person on craigslist and she said she was willing to trade a few goats for the pen.. shes asking 350 and i figured two goats for the pen isn't bad


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> i hope so too
> 
> usually we get our calves at around 500 lbs..
> 
> ...


wow .......thank you SDK ...we must of done it wrong ...we use to feed cob dry and alfalfa
we are also wanting to raise our own beef again....I'd like to find the best method of feeding for the best meat quality..  
Have you ever raised a boer to eat ?


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

yes

best feed i've had for them was showmaster too.. but the verdemont feed is cheaper.. and they are still tasty

for 30 pounds i do the showmaster goat feed called sales edge.. you feed that till about 60 pounds free choice.. and then i feed the goat developer at 3-5 pounds a day

they also get hay.. half to a quarter flake a day, just for roughage..

nice thing about the showmaster is you don't need supplements


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Is that no alfalfa also with the goat as not for the steer?

I have raised wethers and they always had a gamey taste.....Yuk could never get it right..
When is the ideal butcher weight? 
Is that giving them goat developer at 3-5 pounds a day until butcher?
sorry about all the questions ...I just like to get it right ...


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

yea no alfalfa..

and 3-5 lbs a day until about 100-110

or you could free feed them to speed it up.. but i think slower is better


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> yea no alfalfa..
> 
> and 3-5 lbs a day until about 100-110
> 
> or you could free feed them to speed it up.. but i think slower is better


hey thanks SDK.....I really appreciate it....  ..... maybe if I do it again..... I will get it right next time.....LOL


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