# Horses now legal for slaughter- both sides of the coin



## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

President Obama has now legalized the slaughtering of horses in the US.

Here is proof- 
http://www.ecorazzi.com/2011/11/29/hors ... ent-obama/

Most of you guys will disagree with me when I say it is a good thing in a way.

Yes, I agree that horses should not be killed and should be loved and properly cared for without starting a horse processing plant.

There are MANY people around us that have horses, and not only in NY state. All over there are people raising horses. Sometimes they can't afford the feed and vet bills anymore and can't sell them.

Some of these horses can't be fed and cared for properly, due to the lack of funds. It is my theory that these horses would do far better to feed a hungry community or family than for it(the horse) to die of hunger.

Of course this wouldn't be good for registered horses of good breeding lines. These would have to be saved. They should always be sold (if one is not keeping them) to people who have the funds to care for them properly.

I met someone who had 4 horses die. Two were old, but they were very skinny. We were there getting manure and they were off to the side to be buried. This guy lost his farm and everything.
I saw ads for "free horses" in the paper from this guy. But no one around here wants a free horses that takes an upwards of $2,000 a year to raise it. I think this is why they died...Could not feed, could not re home, Could not eat them (illegal at the time). So in this case I think it would have been good to feed his family for a while longer.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

totally agree with you! 

its not different then when we have goats we cant sell or care for. They are livestock and human slaughter is better then starvation for horse or owner.


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I had heard about this...was SO happy to hear the news. They are livestock and should be treated as such. I am 100% for humane slaughter of all livestock...horses should be treated no different. 

Technically it has always been legal to slaughter horses, you just couldn't sell the meat for human consumption. Now hopefully they'll get the slaughter plants reopened and/or get new plants in place soon and this will help the equine economy a little, along with helping prevent neglect a bit.


----------



## Springbett Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

I personally don't like horse slaughter BUT I can understand why there is a need for it. If this was a perfect world and horse breedings were carefully planned and thought out and prospective buyers were assured; if droughts could be avoided; if there wasn't a market for horsemeat abroad, then maybe we wouldn't need slaughterhouses. My hope is that the horses are killed as quickly and painlessly as possible. It still frosts me that the market for riding horses has dropped so low and yet people seem to be breeding as many as ever. How is it worth it if your yearlings sell at auction for $25?
I'm only glad that the slaughter-bound horses won't have to travel far to Mexico (or Canada).


----------



## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I agree that it is great that this has been legalized. I also have seen many horses wither away when the owner could not afford to care for them and no one wanted to buy them.


----------



## JessaLynn (Aug 30, 2009)

I agree...livestock is livestock and as long as it's done in a humane way then by all means


----------



## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

I am pro-horse slaughter so this really pleases me. I would rather a horse die quickly and painlessly, than rotting out in a field and starving to death.

This will help the horse economy so much, now that the kill buyers are in the sales again-raising the prices of the horses.

I love my horses. I love them with all my heart.


----------



## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

Agreed. Because I love horses so much, I would much rather see them be humanely slaughtered and put to good use somehow than to suffer because their owner can't afford to care for them.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Not just starving, but here people lost their house so take their horses to a orchard and turn them out to destroy the farmers trees. And some horses are down right mean. My uncle has 1 that you cant even catch but doesnt have the heart to just shoot them and let them waist away. And I also have horses and love them almost as much as my kids :wink:


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I am against horse slaughter. I have too many friends in the rescue business, and whomever thinks these horses are treated good and end their life on a humane note are so horribly mistaken.
Sure there are laws in place, but who thinks they are truly enforcing these laws to protect the horses? 
Now it's even more easy for kill buyers to go around buying up all the horses just for some foreigner to eat.

Tell me how many wars a cow or sheep or goat carried man through? IMO horses are like dogs. Would you eat your dog? Should they start slaughtering dogs and other animals at the shelters if there was a demand for their meat? Horses might be livestock, but they have served a huge purpose outside of a meal throughout history, and this is how they are honored? I know there are many horses in the country that are neglected, but this is not the answer. These horses are going to suffer an even worse fate 

There is a petition that has been started, and collecting as many signatures as possible, if anyone wants to help, here's the link:
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/% ... hank-you=p


----------



## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

HoosierShadow said:


> I am against horse slaughter. I have too many friends in the rescue business, and whomever thinks these horses are treated good and end their life on a humane note are so horribly mistaken.
> Sure there are laws in place, but who thinks they are truly enforcing these laws to protect the horses?
> Now it's even more easy for kill buyers to go around buying up all the horses just for some foreigner to eat.
> 
> ...


You do have a point. I think that this would raise horse prices though. So if you have a nice registered horse to sell for say $3,000, I highly doubt a meat buyer is willing to pay that. I think this would make it easier to keep the "good horses".


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

it doesnt demean the value of a horse in their abilities and what they have done throughout history no more then it does for goats to be eaten. 

Meat is meat -- doesnt matter the animal to me. 

Yes horses have multiple uses - so do goats and dogs and cats and and and.... the list goes on and on. 

In every business there will be those who take it seriously and care for the animals properly and those who dont care and this happens even if they arent going for slaughter Ive seen it. So meat or not doesn't mean the life of a horse is any less valuable - it actually brings the value up and lets us see how more awesome they are because they have many uses  

horse rescues are great -- and we wouldnt put them down in anyway -- but not everyone can rescue a horse and rescues are burdened already with the number they have.


----------



## Idahodreamer (Sep 19, 2009)

Throughout history and myths, there are beasts who were noted as too noble to kill. I think a horse is one of them.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

we euthanize them - we shoot them when they are to injured to be repaired. Whats the difference if we use the meat? its just going to rot - might as well feed people.

In india you cant kill or eat a cow/cattle - but we do every day


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

If the meat was going to poor countries to feed poor people, that's a different story IMO. This meat is a delicacy in other countries, so it's not going to poor people who can't afford to eat, instead it is going to countries where rich people pay rich people prices to eat it.

Horses make up the United States history. What would this country have been without them? We use them now, for variety of work to entertainment. How do they get repaid? Slaughtered for some foreigner to devour them? Sorry I am just not in agreement here.

BTW, Kill buyers WILL pay $3,000 for a good horse. It is not uncommon for them to go to sales and buy $1,000 horses. In fact, they have a rule in place at the local horse sales <racehorse sales> that protect the horses who don't sell well from being sold to a kill buyer.

I love goats, but there is no way to compare a goat to a horse, a sheep or cow or pig to a horse. 
I guess for those who aren't into horses and see the ins and outs of the horse world, then horse slaughter is just fine. Still, I can't agree with that.
At least a dog and cat can be euthanized and not go out in a horrific death.
Why can't they do this with horses? Why must they be crammed into livestock trailers, some who are sick or too injured to stand on their feet, and succomb and fall only to be trampled to death and dragged from a trailer in hopes it's not dead yet so they can have it's meat.
They had to pass a law just to get these trucks to stop and give these animals water, and a break as well as food. But you can imagine they don't always do that and will get away with as much <or in the horses case, as little> as they can. 
Now it makes me wonder if these livestock trailers will be the double decker kind. Horses can't even hold their head up in those, they have to keep their head down because the ceilings are not tall enough.
I have witnessed the double decker before, and OMG....it's horrible and I will never ever forget it. They shouldn't have to go through that, or the fact that death doesnt' come 'fast' as many think. If the horse is shot they don't always hit the mark and it takes a second or third time to do the deed, in the mean time the horse is suffering, not to mention the terrifing process just to get to that point. Or a stun that doesn't always work and the horse is bled out feeling the whole thing. I could go on and on 

People are the ones responsible, and in the end it's the horse who pays the price.

Cows, pigs, sheep, goats, were raised to be meat and dairy animals. That has always been their place in the world. Horses were not raised for this intent.


----------



## Sunny Daze (May 18, 2010)

I am glad they are legalizing slaughter in the US again. The shutting down of the slaughter houses was one of the worst things that has happened to the horse industry in a while. Horses starving, neglected, getting dumped in peoples pastures, national forests, etc. Not to mention it totally drove prices down by flooding the market with all the "give-aways". It is completely ridiculous when you can find well bred young horses for a few hundred dollars. It cost SO much more just to breed, care for mare and foal, and feed them to get them to that point! Then there are all the old or mentally or physically unsound horses. They head off to auctions only to be passed on to some unsuspecting buyer.

And to think the ban in the US ended slaughter, a lot of horses were just shipped to Mexico or Canada where they had a longer journey and killed at slaughter houses that we have absolutely no control over....I personally would not eat horse meat or dog meat but I also think it is wasteful to euthanize all the dogs and cats we do when there are cultures/people that would.


----------



## Sunny Daze (May 18, 2010)

HoosierShadow said:


> .
> I guess for those who aren't into horses and see the ins and outs of the horse world, then horse slaughter is just fine. Still, I can't agree with that.
> .


Just wanted to add I have been riding and showing for 20 yrs and training horses for 12 (professionaly, i began breaking and training my own before that). I know many vets and trainers that were very agains the slaughter ban and all agree it has had terrible repercussions on horses and the horse industry.


----------



## Farmgirl675 (Oct 21, 2010)

I'm all for it! I am into horses and know all to well what happens to those who can no longer be cared for or worse yet the poor horses that are owned by some idiot who picked one up for free and has no clue what it actually takes to raise one. I currently have 8 horses that some guy left on his property when he decided to move and could not sell or give them away and all the rescues were full! I have had them for over 2 years now and because of severe abuse and neglect there is only one that is sound to ride. I refuse to "give" them away to other people who can't afford to buy a horse but somehow think they can afford to properly care for one??? 

Horses are livestock and should be treated as such! I can't understand how someone can say it's horrible to send a horse to a feedlot where they will be fattened and slaughtered for meat but have no problem buying beef or goat or chicken in the store that was treated the very same way??


----------



## Randi (Apr 22, 2011)

:sigh: :tears: I have to be honest. This whole concept makes me feel sick and cry. I just can't think of horses as livestock....I just can't condone the slaughter methods in use today. I have worked against this for years and I am saddened that this bill was passed. It makes my stomach ache...... 

[IMG]http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn67/ewewitch/justhorses3025-1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn67/ewewitch/Pin-upGirl.jpg[/IMG]

This is my "slaughter-house" pony. She was in a kill pen, in line to be loaded onto a cattle truck. She had severe pneumonia and was starving to death.

Now she is my best friend.


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

HoosierShadow said:


> Horses make up the United States history. What would this country have been without them? We use them now, for variety of work to entertainment. How do they get repaid? Slaughtered for some foreigner to devour them? Sorry I am just not in agreement here.


*What would this country have been without cattle? Heck, cattle made up just as much US history as horses, actually they probably made up way more. Why do we give human emotions to horses, but not cattle? Isn't their life just as valuable as a horse?*



HoosierShadow said:


> BTW, Kill buyers WILL pay $3,000 for a good horse. It is not uncommon for them to go to sales and buy $1,000 horses. In fact, they have a rule in place at the local horse sales <racehorse sales> that protect the horses who don't sell well from being sold to a kill buyer.


*Actually, they will not pay $3,000 for a good horse nowdays. They can get good sized horses for $10 to $300 right now easily. Actually I do not recall a time ever where they would pay $3,000 for one horse. The race horses that don't race easily end up at local auctions and are in fact sold to kill buyers. In fact many ex-racers end up going to slaughter because there is a very slim market for them...at least where I am. *



HoosierShadow said:


> I love goats, but there is no way to compare a goat to a horse, a sheep or cow or pig to a horse.
> I guess for those who aren't into horses and see the ins and outs of the horse world, then horse slaughter is just fine. Still, I can't agree with that.
> At least a dog and cat can be euthanized and not go out in a horrific death.
> Why can't they do this with horses? Why must they be crammed into livestock trailers, some who are sick or too injured to stand on their feet, and succomb and fall only to be trampled to death and dragged from a trailer in hopes it's not dead yet so they can have it's meat.


*How is there no way to compare a goat/cow/sheep/chicken/etc. to a horse? Why is their life considered more precious than other livestock?

I am very very much involved with horses, actually more so than my goats. I am also pretty involved in the auction prices and slaughter situation. If you look at public polls taken on horse slaughter, the majority against it, doesn't even own horses or doesn't know much about them. If you go onto a horse forum, you will see this same topic and see the majority are glad to see Obama passed this bill. I can pm you this very topic to the horse forum if you'd like to see for yourself. Those I know involved in horses are for horse slaughter. I think i've met a couple who are against it.

Euthanasia is a great option, but not everyone can afford this. It can be pretty inconvenient for many. I have the luxury living where I am I have my own backhoe and property and funds to pay for the vet to come out and euthanize them, but many do not have this available nor have the funds to pay for all this.

Using a captive bolt gun is actually very humane. Here is some information on it: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/in ... orses.html How do you consider this a horrific death when vets agree that it is a humane way to put down a horse?

The cramming in the trailers is actually a safety thing. They need to be a little crowded so they can brace against each other during the ride, it is very safe. What would be unsafe is to give them lots of room to move around. As for sick and injured, kill buyers do not buy these kind of horses, they are of no use to them. I don't know if you know this, but these trucks are well regulated in the US. Once the trucks get to the boarder they are also checked and if there are any issues with the horses, any blood coming off any of them, any not standing, etc., the trucks are turned around.*



HoosierShadow said:


> They had to pass a law just to get these trucks to stop and give these animals water, and a break as well as food. But you can imagine they don't always do that and will get away with as much <or in the horses case, as little> as they can.
> Now it makes me wonder if these livestock trailers will be the double decker kind. Horses can't even hold their head up in those, they have to keep their head down because the ceilings are not tall enough.
> I have witnessed the double decker before, and OMG....it's horrible and I will never ever forget it. They shouldn't have to go through that, or the fact that death doesnt' come 'fast' as many think. If the horse is shot they don't always hit the mark and it takes a second or third time to do the deed, in the mean time the horse is suffering, not to mention the terrifing process just to get to that point. Or a stun that doesn't always work and the horse is bled out feeling the whole thing. I could go on and on


*Most the people hauling the horses actually do care about the horses. They're going to take care of them as best they can because they get paid for this. If all their horses die on the truck from lack of water, they aren't going to get paid for those horses and they're going to be turned around at the boarders.

As for the trailers. Are you aware that the double deckers are illegal in the US and used mainly for cattle? Now horses have to be transported on a straight deck which is not only more uncomfortable, but the center of gravity is higher and much harder for the horses vs. the double deckers. Also, their heads are not crammed. Have you ever been in one? There is plenty of head room for large horses over 14 hands. *



HoosierShadow said:


> People are the ones responsible, and in the end it's the horse who pays the price.
> 
> Cows, pigs, sheep, goats, were raised to be meat and dairy animals. That has always been their place in the world. Horses were not raised for this intent.


*Yes, people are the ones responsible. Please tell me what is better, horse slaughter plants in the US or hauling US horses to Canada or Mexico for slaughter? In the US we can at least regulate the plants, we can't do that in other countries, and I can tell you...Mexico has no regulations. In the US, we can give our horses a humane death, have good regulations in place, and prevent extremely long drives across boarders.

Horses also have their place in this world and in many parts of the world, horses are slaughtered and eaten, just as other livestock. The US has fantisized them and made it so they are not looked at as livestock anymore. They have no different feelings from a cow or hog. It is not right to treat them differently. If you are against all livestock being slaughtered that is one thing and I could respect that, but to be biased toward horses, that to me... is not fair.*


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

I agree with KW Farms. I think those saying that horse slaughter in the US is wrong and inhumane are likely ignorant of the process. I am VERY happy that this bill passed. Anti-slaughter people...you do know that BECAUSE there was no legal slaughter in the US those horses were simply being hauled much longer distances to Mexico where they suffered from very poor management practices and extremely inhumane slaughter methods? They are going to get killed for meat regardless of what we do, and I for one would rather they be killed here where the regulation is much better, than trucked off across the border! I honestly think the push for anti-slaughter here in the US has drastically hurt horses in general, doing much more bad than good.

I love horses to death, have had them since I was 7. I have three right now, and a weanling. Would I ever want them to be killed? No. Do I have a hard time thinking of them like meat animals? Yes. Did they play an important role in history? Yes. Are they noble? Yes. Do you think horses have the capacity to realize or think about this, or have much greater mental resources than other livestock? No...But the anti-slaughter group who wail that owners should buck up and do the right thing by humanely euthanizing are being unrealistic. Not only do some people fall on such hard times they can not afford it, but we can't rely on people to be responsible. Those who can't afford (or are unwilling to pay for) euthanasia are going to allow the animals to starve to death. Why? Because they either can't find them a new home (if they care) or they literally don't want to be bothered by doing what is right. Dumping them at an auction or a meat plant for slaughter is an easy way out for them. And again, if they are going to an auction in any case and are bought for meat, I'd rather they be killed and processed state side.

We might not like that people are irresponsible, but we can't convince all horse owners to step up. Unfortunately in this world, many people are just outright bad or at the very least lazy and ignorant. And for those who do try to step up and put down their horses (if they can't find it a new home)...how is a bolt gun any worse than a BULLET, if these people can't afford the euthanasia? After all, if they are to the point they need to kill the horse to keep it from starving, they obviously can't even afford to feed it.


----------



## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

I agree with KW as well. There are so many more HORRIBLE ways to die then getting a bullet to the head. The horses do NOT know where they are going when they get on these trailers. Horses don't know about slaughter houses.

Also...I find that bullet to the head is quicker and less agonizing then actually euthanasia. The shot is actually less humane IMO than a bullet. The horses can feel it, they know that death is coming....they do not know what is coming out of the barrel of a gun


----------



## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

I didn't mean to start an argument or debate on this subject, I was just simply stating my opinion.


----------



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

I'm going to take a chance and poke my nose in here... I realize this is an extremely hot topic, and I have seen friends become enemies over this subject. It's sad.

But my tiny 2 cents is that I'm 100% for horse slaughter. I dearly love horses. I train them, I ride them, I've rescued some, I hope to have more in the future, BUT, I am not against eating horse meat. If someone served me a plate of horse meat, I would eat it with gusto. Ditto for dog. I would eat dog too. My top favorite meat is alpaca (also known as levianda). I know some people have a hard time with the thought of eating fluffy alpacas, but it's meat. And good meat at that.

Hoosier, you are correct in saying that the horses have a cruel death. All animals do at the big slaughter houses. over 40% of the time, animals do not die until they are eviscerated. That's going through being skinned, scalded, and then cut open, before they finally die. This is for cows, hogs, chickens, turkeys, and now horses. It's cruel, yes. But there is no way around it. 

I do hope this thread won't damage any friendships here at TGS. I used to be on a different forum that fell completely apart when this topic came up. 

To each his own, guys. To each his own.


----------



## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

Goat Song said:


> I do hope this thread won't damage any friendships here at TGS. I used to be on a different forum that fell completely apart when this topic came up.
> 
> To each his own, guys. To each his own.


I agree whole heartedly.


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

jesse-goats said:


> I didn't mean to start an argument or debate on this subject, I was just simply stating my opinion.


Lol. This topic always starts either/or. What is nice is that this is actually a debate. People on this forum are so much more capable of having a real discussion without devolving into personal attacks and mud flinging. I love that I can debate things like this with people who act like grown ups, and no matter how different our opinions are everyone still seems to really like one another!!!

:grouphug: GROUP HUG!


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I couldn't of said it better firelight.  

We can discuss, agree or disagree on the topic...I will look at no one differently because they agree or disagree with what I or someone else has to say on the matter and I would hope everyone on TGS can do the same. I very much respect everyone's opinion whether I agree with it or not. Everyone is entitled. There is no need to make this discussion a big deal...we can all be mature about it...and that is one reason I love TGS so much. :thumb: 

Remember Stacey's motto..."keep it friendly, keep it fun!"


----------



## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

KW Farms said:


> I couldn't of said it better firelight.
> 
> We can discuss, agree or disagree on the topic...


Or we can agree to disagree. As Caption Jack Sparrow said "we must fight....to run away" :laugh: :thumb:


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I know people that have sold horses for a lot of $$ and they ended up on a kill buyer's truck. They don't always buy at auction, please remember that...

I will and always will be anti slaughter. Yes, horses are much different than cows. Cows have always been a source of food they are and always have been raised specifically to eat. Same with pigs, and for many farmers same with sheep and goats. How many horse farms do you see that raise horses for the sole idea of consumption? None. Because they are bred for other purposes. They are used for other things.
And kill buyers don't buy horses to fatten them up and send them away on trucks. They buy them with the intent to ship them for meat, they can care less if the horses eat or not.

I know several horses who were saved from slaughter, and many were wonderful horses. It's not just old sick, crazy horses that nobody wants. There are soooo many wonderful horses that get sent to slaughter. These kill buyers will outbid people who could offer the horses homes, families who are looking for riding horses.

The problem is the laws in the US are not strict enough for animal abuse/neglect. IMO anyone who breeds any kind of animal should be 100% responsible for their actions. If they neglect and have not tried to get help, then harsh penalties should be put in place. 
They should also tax the kill buyers like CRAZY at the borders! A stiff tax can be discouraging.

They can not all be saved. But opening up the plants in the US, will just make it so much easier for less horses to be saved and easier for kill buyers to ship. Auctions should establish a way to keep kill buyers from buying horses that have gotten a bid and could get a chance at having a life.

Without laws, and rules of course people are going to be neglectful, and not care. 

People can't afford euthanizing a horse? What the heck are they doing with a horse in the first place?!?!?! If you can't afford this, you shouldn't own a horse! If you can't afford this you shouldn't own a dog! be responsible. I know people that save $5 out of their paycheck each week in an account just for emergencies such as this. If people can't afford this, then again they don't need the animal.

I agree with firelight. We all have our own views on things, and are entitled to our opinions, that's why I love this site. 
It's just such a heartbreaking issue. I have several friends in the rescue business who have been able to do so much more since this ban was put in place, and now they all feel like this is a kick in the gut for what they've been trying to do. Even some are able to work with auction outlets that try to place the horses in homes. 
For every sick or old or deathly ill horse that goes to slaughter, there are at least 5 more that could have been a wonderful riding/companion horse for someone.


----------



## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

The hottest topics I have seen on TGS involved raw milk and egg washing. I love that this topic can be discussed so rationally. It is a very emotional topic.
I am with Goatsong. Meat is meat. When I lived in Hawaii there was a bill to ban the *backyard killing* of dogs for food. It went down to defeat as certain cultures proved that eating dog was part of a long history.
Being near 60 I ate a lot of ground horse growing up. It was half the price of beef and we were poor. I have lived to see California actually get an initiative on the ballet to ban horse for human consumption (but not, apparently, for dog consumption :scratch: ). Nobody cared enough about being able to eat horse to fight it so it passed.
I am wondering how this federal law will affect that.
I have many friends who visit and just cannot bring themselves to eat rabbit. I do not think I could eat dog or cat as too many of them have held an intimate spot in my heart. Still, I would not think less of someone else for doing so. It is all very personal.
But as far as laws go; how can we put one non-human animal above another? We cannot.
Sadly the raising and slaughter of all animals has become cruel and disgusting. That is why we raise our own food. Even buying eggs is contributing to the abuse of animals. Has anyone seen BeeMovie?!? We have our own hives now. If you read up on what they are doing to vegetables it can turn the stomach even if you do not believe plants have feelings.
There is a dinner sponsored by one of the service organizations in our town every year. The whole idea is non-conventional meat. They serve elk and bear and 'possum and llama etc. It is very popular. 
I have enjoyed reading everyone’s views. It is very enlightening.


----------



## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

HoosierShadow said:


> If the meat was going to poor countries to feed poor people, that's a different story IMO. This meat is a delicacy in other countries, so it's not going to poor people who can't afford to eat, instead it is going to countries where rich people pay rich people prices to eat it.
> 
> Horses make up the United States history. What would this country have been without them? We use them now, for variety of work to entertainment. How do they get repaid? Slaughtered for some foreigner to devour them? Sorry I am just not in agreement here.
> 
> ...


I am definitely on the opposite side of this coin. First of all....I believe that ALL animals deserve a humane death. That, in my opinion, includes cows, pigs, sheep, goats, horses and chickens. My fight would be regulating slaughter houses and transport rather than banning horses from the slaughter list. Make it a humane end for all animals, including horses for slaughter. Horses are livestock and where starving people or other animals are concerned should be used as such. If an owner is forced to starve their horses to death because they can not afford to feed them, can not sell them why on earth should other animals go hungry when horse meat can be a vital sustanance? I have been looking for a horse for my daughter for 2 months.....soooooo many of the horses I've seen recently are in HORRIBLE conditions....starving to death and being TORTURED. It has brought me to tears more times than I can count. That in my opinion is a FAR worse fate than a humane, quick slaughter so that another animal or human can live. The facts are.... hay prices are too high, people are out of jobs and the shelters are all full. Why waste the meat when the horses are dying either way?


----------



## nonconformist (Nov 14, 2011)

Reading through the previous posts, I agree with the majority in favor of the bill. Surprising to myself but I do feel it would be better to be humanely killed than to starve or be abused as I have also seen in my area of the country. Also, if there is a use for the meat why not.

While I think it will shorten the suffering of many, there is also a possible flip side. If there is a market for horse meat and it is legal to process then horse thefts could increase. Also more scams advising they will give your unwanted horse a loving forever home with other intentions in mind.

Meat is still meat though. Most of my family and friends wouldn't even eat a goose egg as it is not the acceptable normal american diet of beef, pork, chicken or turkey product.

My biggest concern though still lies with the slaughterhouse itself and their operations. This is why I process my own and grow/produce what I can.


----------



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

> My fight would be regulating slaughter houses and transport rather than banning horses from the slaughter list.


 Aye, but that's where things get extremely touchy. The government has put down a lot of regulations to try and do something about the "safety" of our food, but unfortunately all of those regulations apply to the small business folks too. People rally and vote to regulate, regulate, regulate, but we small farmers/abbatoirs get slammed by laws that barely cause a ripple amongst the CAFO's. I've worked at a small slaughter house. We did poultry. But I also know people who do large livestock. The majority of them are poor folk; they bend over backwards trying to jump through the regulatory hoops that the government put down, when in reality they don't even apply to them! The small guy, who is doing everything by hand and does it right, gets put out of business because he didn't have the millions of $$ to adhere to the new rules, while the huge slaughterhouses don't change anything. They know how to bribe, and get around laws. Not to mention the government subsidies that keep them going...
Regulations are a hard thing to deal with. They touch everyone.


----------



## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

That is true Caitlyn.


----------



## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

This all has been a very interesting topic for me to read....not long ago, my mom was in dire need to find a home for a very nice colt or send him to auction where he MIGHT have gotten a good home...instead however he was given to a lady who was able and willing to give him the training and care he needed.

IMO...Every living being has a purpose for breathing, as unconventional as the concept of eating equine meat is, if I absolutely had to I would eat horse over canine...at least horses are herbivores just as cattle, sheep and goats are...I'm not real keen on fowl or pork mainly because I know they are omnivores. It is sad, but when it comes down to it, it's the almighty dollar that rules in this situation and those that are in this business are doing it because to them it is a job.


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I don't condone to any animal dying an inhumane death - cows, pigs, etc. I've seen a lot of disturbing stuff on that too, especially I think it's in one of the Asian countries right now that has some heads turning, I could be wrong about location, but seems that is where I've seen the photos and stories.

Horses don't go over the border and killed humanely, and don't believe for a second their lives are humanely ended in slaughter houses in the US. They suffer. Multiple blows with a stun gun, or a dagger to the back of the neck. Horses suffering to get to a slaughter house whether it be in the US or over the borders. Horses suffer no matter where they are shipped for slaughter.
They are not treated humanely as many seem to think.

There is no excuse for cruelty to any animal. But I still stand my ground - horses were not raised to be food, they were raised for working, riding and companionship. Other livestock were raised for food, but again they deserve a humane end.

A big problem with this country again is the pat on the hand, it's not even a slap on the wrist. Laws are too flexible and soft for animal abusers, hoarders and breeders. 
They need to make harsh penalties for people who neglect their animals, and those people should never be allowed to have animals again.

I remember years ago I think in 2004, a lady contacted me about cleaning some stalls for her. Later I found out she was neglecting the horses! The sherriff's office had to take over, and the horses were all placed in homes after they were nursed back to health.
I bought and donated 40 bales of hay to help these horses.
The woman's mother wasn't jailed even though she was involved, but the woman was.
Then about two years ago they were back in the news for the SAME THING!!!

Seriously. This is ridiculous.

IMO as far as any registered animal goes, there should be something in the form that states the owner is taking 100% responsability for that animal, and if the animal is ever found to be in neglect, that person should be responsible and if not, they can never register another animal in their name, and it sure would be nice if there was a law put in effect, but I know court costs, etc. to enforce these laws could be hard. But it wouldn't be hard for the registries to enforce this. What are they losing? A potential neglectful breeder? Sure you don't have control over what happens to an animal after it's sold, BUT you are the breeder, so by breeding and creating this life, you are always responsible for that animal.

In the horse racing world some owners have been barred from ever registering racing stock, or racing and I hope they keep cracking down on this. A few tracks supposably passed a rule that if any horses are shipped from their grounds for slaughter, the trainer will be barred from their track. Of course there have been some loopholes and this has happened. It would work if they would fix it and keep their foot down on the matter.

As for racehorses, if they can't be raced anymore, and can't be sold as breeding stock, second career horses or pets/riding horses, then it's the owners responsability to euthanize that horse ----> IMO.

Still what bugs me even more is knowing at some of these auctions, nice, healthy horses are sold to kill buyers, when the underbidder might have offered that horse a wonderful new home.

I know they all can't be saved, I'm okay with that, it's not a perfect world. But with so much neglect and abuse, something has to change. But this isn't the answer. People think 'oh horses will starve and be neglected if it's illegal.' Ummm...horses will still starve and be neglected, nothing is going to change that, even opening a few slaughter houses in the US. But it does mean less will be slaughtered here and suffering through the process just so some rich foreigner can get fat off their meat <while the poor still starve!>, and so other countries can get rich selling the meat. Who is this really benefiting? It certainly doesn't benefit the horse, and doesn't benefit the poor people either.


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

HoosierShadow said:


> I know people that have sold horses for a lot of $$ and they ended up on a kill buyer's truck. They don't always buy at auction, please remember that...
> 
> I will and always will be anti slaughter. Yes, horses are much different than cows. Cows have always been a source of food they are and always have been raised specifically to eat. Same with pigs, and for many farmers same with sheep and goats. How many horse farms do you see that raise horses for the sole idea of consumption? None. Because they are bred for other purposes. They are used for other things.
> And kill buyers don't buy horses to fatten them up and send them away on trucks. They buy them with the intent to ship them for meat, they can care less if the horses eat or not.
> ...


*I'm quite aware that many horses bound for slaughter are not bought at auctions. In my county we actually have basically a horse feedlot where people can bring in their horse(s), sell it to the lot, and the lot owners send off truckloads of horses to slaughter. It's a buy/sell/trade operation, but they hold horses there for a bit then once they get a load, haul them out. Some people go down there to buy, but more people go down there to sell unfortunately.

There are some nice horses that go to slaughter and unfortunately, in the past few years I have never seen the prices so low for high quality horses. The majority of slaughter horses, however are problem horses, not rideable, etc. There is no use for many of them. I have seen what kind of horses sell to kill buyers.*



HoosierShadow said:


> The problem is the laws in the US are not strict enough for animal abuse/neglect. IMO anyone who breeds any kind of animal should be 100% responsible for their actions. If they neglect and have not tried to get help, then harsh penalties should be put in place.
> They should also tax the kill buyers like CRAZY at the borders! A stiff tax can be discouraging.
> 
> They can not all be saved. But opening up the plants in the US, will just make it so much easier for less horses to be saved and easier for kill buyers to ship. Auctions should establish a way to keep kill buyers from buying horses that have gotten a bid and could get a chance at having a life.


*What would be the point of taxing the kill buyers? Why should they be taxed more than a cattle "kill buyer"?

At an auction, say every auction bans kill buyers from bidding after any random non-kill buyer person bids. If someone cannot outbid the kill buyer, then they probably shouldn't have horses in the first place. What kind of home would that person be able to provide the horse? Kill buyers don't pay much for their horses. I just saw the last list of horse auction prices from an auction north of me. The KB didn't spend more than $250 on one horse...most went for $50-100.*



HoosierShadow said:


> Without laws, and rules of course people are going to be neglectful, and not care.
> 
> People can't afford euthanizing a horse? What the heck are they doing with a horse in the first place?!?!?! If you can't afford this, you shouldn't own a horse! If you can't afford this you shouldn't own a dog! be responsible. I know people that save $5 out of their paycheck each week in an account just for emergencies such as this. If people can't afford this, then again they don't need the animal.
> 
> ...


*If a person cannot afford to euthanize and bury a horse, no, they shouldn't own any, however, they can and they do, it's reality. When they can get the horse at the local auction for $25 or get one off of Craigslist for free then many people who couldn't previous afford the purchase price now have one and in many cases that turns into a neglect issue. The horse just sits in their back drylot and gets fed a few times a week or sits out in an open field, never gets brushed, ridden, hooves trimmed, etc. It's sad, but I see it all the time.

It is true that some really great horses head to slaughter and COULD have gotten homes, but in a better economy, right now, they can't. There aren't enough buyers as there are horses. There aren't enough rescues and all the rescues are full or can't afford to take more in. Individuals who rescue on the side cannot take anymore. So that leaves the question...what do we do with the excess horses?*


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

HoosierShadow said:


> Horses don't go over the border and killed humanely, and don't believe for a second their lives are humanely ended in slaughter houses in the US. They suffer. Multiple blows with a stun gun, or a dagger to the back of the neck. Horses suffering to get to a slaughter house whether it be in the US or over the borders. Horses suffer no matter where they are shipped for slaughter.
> They are not treated humanely as many seem to think


This is what some anti-slaughter groups will have you believe. That it is not a humane death. The operators of the captive bolt gun are trained to do their job quickly and effeciently...they do not wake up in the morning and wonder to themselves..how many horses can I make suffer today. The job needs to be done quickly and correctly.

A dagger to the neck, this is not done in the US. Mexico maybe, from what I have heard, like I said, they have no regulations there. In the US, this is absolutely not how they did that. It would be extremely tiring and difficult to do it like that.

Most of the people who work in the plants aren't cruel people, they just need a job and aren't afraid of to do that kind of job as difficult as it would be for many others to do.

Why not just push to get all professionally trained captive bolt operators then?


----------



## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I always knew that there were laws against slaughtering horses but I also know that one of the "legal" slaughterhouses has always been here in PA, unless there are ways found to ensure that these animals have a humane end and a humane life leading to that end, the laws simply will not change.

I'm going to throw a wrench in here too...we all breed and raise goats for a purpose and as breeders it is our responsibility to ensure that our animals are raised humanely and it's a responsibilty to cull those that just don't fit within a healthy, hardy herd.....it should be the same concept for those who breed other animals such as horses, they are bred for a specific reason...#1 is usually to become a profit making racer or a quality companion animal...as breeders, if those qualities are not there, then the responsible thing to do would be to take those animals out of the herd in a humane way. Having the legal option to take them to slaughter can be beneficial to the rest of the herd as opposed to becoming compost or neutering those that aren't ....it really saddens me however that there is more of an issue with over population of domestic "pets" and there is more laws against animal abuse with dogs and cats than there are with "livestock".
As the title of this topic says..."there are two sides" and each is entitled to debate as with this subject, there are an equal number of negatives and positives. We all have strong opinions as well as facts on this...lets keep the discussion on the friendly side :hug:


----------



## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

Just wanted to throw in that horses/mules/donkeys are eaten in other countries.

Also wanted to say that if these horses were wild horses, the would succumb to predators. Who go at the throat, or the spine, or the intestines, before the animal has even passed on. Bears/cougars/wolves all are predators to the horses that are wild now. The domestic horse has a far quicker end.


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

I too wonder about the claims by anti-slaughter advocates that animals are slaughtered inhumanely. From what I have read about how the stun gun works, it is supposed to be quick and efficient. In other words, as little suffering as possible to end the animal's life. Just because someone insists that US plants are horrible hell-houses doesn't make it so. I feel more certain that most plants do what the government regulations ask them to do.

On the other hand, if the regulation for slaughter houses is as ridiculous as some of the laws and regulations for other industries it may be over the top. I don't know what the actual rules are, but I'm positive there are those in place to help prevent the suffering of the animals. Goatsong raises a good point, however, that while large companies can afford to follow some of the over the top regulations and still turn a profit most small farms just can not. They most likely do things with much more care than the bigger companies and probably don't need to jump through so many hoops to be responsible and humane. 

Goatsong is also right that even though there are laws, people break them all the time. Bribery and corruption are rampant amongst our society, especially within large organizational structures that involve large sums of money (IE government.) Just because there are some bad companies or people who don't follow rules, who are inhumane, etc. doesn't mean we can make a blanket statement about the industry as a whole. It isn't fair to people who are good, treat the animals right, and are just trying to make a living.

Also, some people have stated that "if someone can't afford euthanization then they shouldn't have a horse." Uh...duh. Lol. But my whole point in my earlier post is that people can and will do what they want. Many are irresponsible, lazy, ignorant, etc. So the horses end up in the situation regardless, and they still can't afford to put the horse down, much less feed it. And the horse STILL suffers from starvation and neglect whether the person should have owned the animal in the first place. So again, I will say that we can't force people to step up and be responsible and horses ARE going to starve and die or go to slaughter no matter what. 

So again I ask you, wouldn't you rather they be killed here than Mexico? I don't buy that the US is just as cruel as Mexico. No offense to the people of that country, but I've seen some of the horrible things that go down with their animals. Respect for horses is nowhere near as high as it is here, and they don't have issues with being brutal about putting the horse's down. Instead of wasting time freaking out about slaughter being legal here, maybe you could redirect your voice to advocating for better monitoring of slaughterhouses to ensure proper kill procedures are being used. Speak up against corruption within the industry (as in inspectors, government looking the other way when certain slaughterhouses are breaking the rules), and push for harsher penalties for any cruelty practiced.


----------



## newmama30+ (Oct 4, 2010)

I didn't know if I really wanted to jump in here or not, but I am going to. When my husband's father was alive he bred Arabian Horse's, in 1998/99 his favorite Mare died after giving birth to a foal. He quit the buisness, but he kept that foal, Prince. A very special horse he was! but in 2009 as winter set in on us and we realized that we were really short on Hay and would not be able to feed the 2 horse's that we had, I decided to sell them. Not bc we didn't want them, but bc it wasn't fair to them to not be able to eat. I couldn't find a buyer for the horses. When I did find a buyer I thought great just in time, bc at that point it wasn't just the Horse's that we couldn't take care of, we were barely scraping by. Then the woman backed out, and wanted her money back. So I ended up sending them through the Auction. Trevor, and Kathy the owners of the Auction came and picked them up. I didn't realize at the time but I know now that they house the horse's they buy at their home and work with them, even train some of them before sending them through the auction. I don't know what happened to the horse's as we couldn't bring ourselves to attend the auction when they were sold. I wanted to tell my story bc around here there are so many unwanted horse's, that I have seen them sold for as little $50 for AQHA registered horse's. Maybe by reopening the Slaughter Plants the horse industry can get back on its feet, and people who breed horse's will be able to ask enough for them to weed out people who can't actually afford them.

As far as eating horse meat, yes I would. When you are broke and hungry I think you will eat what you can afford. I remember reading a story in School once I believe from France, where a boy bought horse meat to feed the dog. Also as mentioned above when we sold our horse's it was due to lack of funds at the time, I would much rather have put them in my freezer, and ate for a yr or two, than to not know where they are, or if they were killed/not. Don't get me wrong, yeah we kept them for pleasure, but of all the different outcome's which is the worst possible sinario? We raise beef, pork, chicken, waterfowl, and goats, I wouldn't think twice to put any of them in my freezer if I couldn't sell them, and couldn't take care of them, that is why I raise livestock in the end to feed my family, And at the end of its useful life, that is what a horse is, LIVESTOCK. Just my :2cents:


----------



## KatieT (Mar 20, 2011)

I really don't know how I feel about this issue yet. I can certainly see how some good things can come out of this bill passing, as others have mentioned, but I also agree with HoosierShadow in a lot of ways. What bothers me most is the idea of slaughtering animals that were bred, raised, and trained to be companions. In this sense horses are different from cows, pigs, sheep, etc. in this country. If horses were raised specifically for meat, as some draft breeds still are in France, I would feel much more comfortable with the idea of horse slaughter.

What bothers me most is not the idea of killing horses, but the throw-away culture that exists in the horse (and many other animal) industry. The idea of people dumping their ex-racehorses (some with very successful careers) bothers me. The idea that people continue to breed so many horses when the market is so terrible and finding homes is so difficult bothers me. The idea that people bring home animals that they are not willing or able to care for properly bothers me. Like it's been said before, we as people don't take responsibility, and the animals suffer.

I personally would not want to eat horse meat and wonder if it was a retired racer, an outgrown children's pony, or someone's riding horse that they sent to auction because they could not sell them and could no longer afford to care for them. 

My dad's horse, May, was a rescued from a situation of extreme neglect. When the organization that we adopted her from went back to pick her up, the whole herd was gone. She was later pulled off a truck that would have taken her to slaughter. She was completely blind, starved, and also pregnant. In my opinion, transporting an animal in that condition to slaughter is not acceptable. 

I do hope that for all animals, we continue to strive to make slaughter as merciful as possible, and that we fully understand the responsibility we have to the animals that give us our livelihood. Maybe having legal horse slaughter will create an additional push for careful and humane treatment in transport and slaughter.

(I also want to thank you all for not going to pieces over this touchy subject. I may not agree with all of you, but I'm happy that we all have a place to share our feelings on the subject. Hugs!)


----------



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

> (I also want to thank you all for not going to pieces over this touchy subject. I may not agree with all of you, but I'm happy that we all have a place to share our feelings on the subject. Hugs!)


Yes! This is great getting to discuss this topic without any mud flinging and name calling! I enjoy debates like this, in which people politely share their opinion and everyone learns something. I truly enjoy hearing other people's opinions, weighing them against each other and then learning from them. We all have our own individual opinion on this topic, but we are all respecting each other. Very nice. :grouphug: :thumb:


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

KatieT said:


> I really don't know how I feel about this issue yet. I can certainly see how some good things can come out of this bill passing, as others have mentioned, but I also agree with HoosierShadow in a lot of ways. *What bothers me most is the idea of slaughtering animals that were bred, raised, and trained to be companions. In this sense horses are different from cows, pigs, sheep, etc. in this country. If horses were raised specifically for meat, as some draft breeds still are in France, I would feel much more comfortable with the idea of horse slaughter.*
> What bothers me most is not the idea of killing horses, but the throw-away culture that exists in the horse (and many other animal) industry. The idea of people dumping their ex-racehorses (some with very successful careers) bothers me. The idea that people continue to breed so many horses when the market is so terrible and finding homes is so difficult bothers me. The idea that people bring home animals that they are not willing or able to care for properly bothers me. Like it's been said before, we as people don't take responsibility, and the animals suffer.
> 
> I personally would not want to eat horse meat and wonder if it was a retired racer, an outgrown children's pony, or someone's riding horse that they sent to auction because they could not sell them and could no longer afford to care for them.
> ...


I don't want to talk about this anymore, simply because it's an upsetting issue. I see horse neglect and abuse all over my facebook and horrible pictures <yet great outcomes for many of those!>, and right now everyone is in a 'stand up and fight' mood so I see it x3.

While I respect everyone's opinions. I still will not agree with horse slaughter in the US for 'foreign' consumption. I will not agree with horses being crammed into trailers hurting, starving, and terrified all becaue people are too ignorant to be responsible for them, just so some foreignor with a fat wallet can get the pleasure out of their meat.

Opening the slaughter houses is not going to make the matter ANY BETTER. I don't know why people assume it will, and people can assume away. People are still going to neglect those animals, people are going to be able to be irresponsible breeders, and now even the chances of ex racehorses could be in more jeopardy than when the plants were closed to horse slaughter.
Horses will always get neglected and abused. Same with other animals.
But opening these plants is just a slap in the face, saying 'Hey, mistreat your animals, be irresponsible breeders, because we'll take them off your hands when your finished!'

And yes I do think hefty tax for animals being shipped out of the states for human consumption should be put in place. Especially when there has been a BAN on it happening here. If it's not legal here, they shouldn't condone it for over the borders either.

Anyway, I am not going to get into this anymore. Mentally, thinking about those horses, it's definitely a touchy subject. I see the efforts my friends make each day to try and save horses from slaughter, and see all the undercover stuff, and again, I will never ever agree with it. Never.


----------



## Dover Farms (Oct 16, 2007)

This is a very touchy subject. But I am for the slaughter houses. I remember before the slaughter houses were banned, you couldn't find a good, trained horse for less that $2,000. Now you can pick up good horses for $500 or less. And if they are just going to starve to death, they might as well be used for something. I'm not going to get into it any more than that. I respect each and everyones opinion, whether I like it or not. But I do have one question...



HoosierShadow said:


> IMO as far as any registered animal goes, there should be something in the form that states the owner is taking 100% responsability for that animal, and if the animal is ever found to be in neglect, that person should be responsible and if not, they can never register another animal in their name, and it sure would be nice if there was a law put in effect, but I know court costs, etc. to enforce these laws could be hard. But it wouldn't be hard for the registries to enforce this. What are they losing? A potential neglectful breeder? Sure you don't have control over what happens to an animal after it's sold, BUT you are the breeder, so by breeding and creating this life, you are always responsible for that animal.


As a breeder, I sell a registered doe to someone who promises to take good care of her. And they do. But something comes up and they sell the doe to someone else who doesn't take good care of her. I am responsible, because I am the breeder? What if the original buyer doesn't even let me know they are selling the doe? I wasn't given the chance to buy her back.

Am I understanding you correctly?


----------



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I think it is interesting to observe why we have conflicting feelings concerning this. What is our minds telling us. It is mostly because we struggle slaughtering an animal that does not serve humanity best for food when there are others that do. It is a working animal for mankind and a horse wants to serve man-cows want to eat grass. It would be a shame to use Elephants for meat too even if they could feed a whole village. If there are starving people-then sure.. eat the elephant, horse or what ever but each animal should be used best for what they were created for. In India, there are religious reasons behind why people do not eat cows but not all people in India are this way. I am quite sad that too many people have horses and do not consider the care and cost of them and then.. they end up starving. We know of several horse rescue places too. One place in Oregon matches abused horses with troubled abused kids. It is a rehabilitaion rescue for both people and horses and the results are wonderful.


----------



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

A horse is too intelligent, noble. loyal, workable and personable to be used for food. There are obvious reasons why we get emotional over this. There are a variety of animals with different purposes created for man to use and be responsible for with good stewardship.


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Goat Song said:


> Hoosier, you are correct in saying that the horses have a cruel death. All animals do at the big slaughter houses.* over 40% of the time, animals do not die until they are eviscerated. That's going through being skinned, scalded, and then cut open, before they finally die.* This is for cows, hogs, chickens, turkeys, and now horses. It's cruel, yes. But there is no way around it.


Do you have any proof of this?

Have you actually been into a slaughterhouse?

I find that most people who spout this sensationalism about how 'cruel' slaughterhouses are, how they are skinning and gutting animals that are still alive, have never been into a slaughterhouse at all! It is ignorance and misplaced emotion that breed these rumours.

I used to send 70 wethers per week to slaughter, I was there to watch them killed and processed. They were handled quickly, firmly but humanely in the holding yards, mainly without the use of dogs but any dogs that were used were well trained and muzzled. I used to drop them and within 3 hours they were gone. 
They walked up the ramp reasonably calmly, the guy at the top gave them a rub on the head or neck (my boys mostly were friendly and inquisitive and always looked for a bit of a pat) and then touched them lightly on the back of the head with the electrical stunner, they were instantly asleep, then their throats were cut and they were hung up to bleed out. They never felt a thing. I believe it was very humane and I could not have asked for a better end for my boys.

Here in Australia there are strict rules about how the animals are allowed to be killed and I would imagine it would be the same there. Any abbatoir (slaughterhouse) that did what you say wouldnt stay in business. Also even if you didnt take into account the ethics of it all, it would be so hard to skin and gut an animal that was still alive, as it would be kicking around on the hooks and moving all over the place.

I have no doubt that there are small, isolated incidents of animal abuse in abbatoirs, but I believe (and have proof, here in Australia anyway) that these are few and far between. The majority of abbatoirs do a quick, humane and very good job.

When it comes to horses, the more it is legalised the more controlled the slaughter process will become, and thus the more humane it will be for the animals.

I myself do not believe that it is wrong to slaughter a horse; over time and in many places worldwide, horses have been bred for meat purposes only. In saying that, over time and in many places worldwide, goats have been bred for companion purposes only. Over time and in many places worldwide, cattle have been bred for work purposes only. It is not fair to any of the animals to play favourites. As much as I love my creatures I would send all of them to slaughter if I had no other option. I know it is done humanely, and if I can get a little bit of money, rather than paying for them to be injected, I will go with that method. Look at it this way, someone loses their job, cant afford to feed their horses anymore, no one wants to buy them, perhaps they can send three to the slaughter house, get $100 each for them, buy some hay to feed the two they kept, and it gets them through until they find another job. Certainly I would do that than pay $500 per horse to have them put down by a vet.


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

packhillboers said:


> A horse is too intelligent, noble. loyal, workable and personable to be used for food. There are obvious reasons why we get emotional over this. There are a variety of animals with different purposes created for man to use and be responsible for with good stewardship.


I believe my own individual goats are too intelligent, noble, loyal, workable and personable to be used for food, however I would not deny other people the option to use them for food.

Responsible and good stewardship can also include using them humanely for food.

Waste not, want not :wink:


----------



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

All animals have purpose. It's just always good to consider how they best benefit mankind before jumping to the conclusion that all are good for food. A horse has always been known for the puropse of working for mankind. Some have been used for food in diverse times of need but when we have a choice, why eat the fastest, hardest working, loyal creatures when there are dumb rabbits and cows to eat first.


----------



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Some animals have more of a desire to serve and help man. Few cows will come to your rescue when you need them to. A Rabbit will NOT be able to rescue you if you needed it to. There are thousands of horse, dog and other loyal animal stories that tell how they will risk their lives to save a human and have. There is even a chance that a goat would but it's a slimmer one than a horse. Our lead goat came charging full speed at the buck when it saw it trying to bang at me. She just kept yelling at him to 'stop trying to hit the human.' She is too loyal to ever be on our dinner plate here at our home. Don't ignore what your heart tells you about animals. Some deserve to be used in a way more sensible than a fancy dish in a restaurant or home.


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I object to the 'dumb cow' comment - I believe cows are very smart!  

I get cranky when people tell me sheep are dumb too 

I had a cat save me from a snake once when I was a kid - but if there was a use for all those cats in shelters that get put down ... again my personal view is waste not want not.


----------



## Sunny Daze (May 18, 2010)

Well, there is obviously a surplus of horses out there that are not serving any purpose at all other than rotting away or being pasture ornaments, costing their owneres money who can't afford them. Most of the horses that are truely useful and needed are in a home somewhere and not at risk of slaughter. I realize there are many well trained horses or horses with potential (young, unbroke) that also may make it to slaughter but if there were that many homes available they would find one. There have been far more "good" horses sent to auction and slaughter (in mexico or canada) since the ban after it caused the market to go down the toilet. Hopefully once slaughter houses open back up here things will even out and get back to normal with the unfit going to slaughter and decent riding horses finding the homes. 

Also, many horses would just assume eat grass and be wild. You have to socialize them a lot for them to be human companions. If people spent as much time and money training their other livestock as they do horses, they would seem much more personable as well and less like "food".


----------



## Sunny Daze (May 18, 2010)

keren said:


> I object to the 'dumb cow' comment - I believe cows are very smart!
> 
> I get cranky when people tell me sheep are dumb too
> 
> I had a cat save me from a snake once when I was a kid - but if there was a use for all those cats in shelters that get put down ... again my personal view is waste not want not.


My steer is the first to let me know when the hot wire isn't working. The horses could be in the pasture for months with the hotwire off and never know...lol.


----------



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Well.. people .. we can't make a cow do what a horse does nor can we hope to slaughter a horse and get the thick hide out of it like you can a cow. You cant put a saddle on a sheep and work it hard like you can a horse. You also can not sheer a horses hair and expect to get wool blankets out of it. I am all about stewardship towards animals and giving each creature its fair due for its best use for mankind. Some animals are just best to eat over others. They produce quickly and give back to us in the way of food and clothing. We just have to be responsible for what is given to us. We have a duty to take care of the animal kingdom in a way that fits what they are designed best. I think these reasons are obvious but some go to extremes on both ends of not eating any animals at all or that all animals can be used for food. I don't think this is an (either/or discussion) but rather to just to make sense of our responsibility of stewardship in caring for animals and people.


----------



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry about the dumb cow comment. There are some cows that are smarter than other cows but I have yet to see a cow that is smarter than a horse. Horses know this. I have yet to see a sheep that is smarter than a dog. Dogs know this.


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

packhillboers said:


> Well.. people .. we can't make a cow do what a horse does nor can we hope to slaughter a horse and get the thick hide out of it like you can a cow. You cant put a saddle on a sheep and work it hard like yjou can a horse. You also can not sheer a horses hair and expect to get wool blankets out of it. I am all about stewardship towards animals and giving each creature its fair due for its best use for mankind. Some animals are just best to eat over others. They produce quickly and give back to us in the way of food and clothing. We just have to be responsible for what is given to us. We have a duty to take care of the animal kingdom in a way that fits what they are designed best. I think these reasons are obvious but some go to extremes on both ends of not eating any animals at all or that all animals can be used for food. I don't think this is an (either/or discussion) but rather to just to make sense of our responsibility of stewardship in caring for animals and people.


We have a duty to take care of the animals...period . As long as they are healthy, happy and treated humanely I think that adding any other requirements ( such as using each species only for what one believes its best use is) is highly personal and getting very much away from the point. The way one person thinks an animal should be used or cared for is different than the next. Who are you to make the rules or define an animals purpose?


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

One thing I heard some of you say is that horse rescues couldnt do their job with this now legal.

I don't understand how this will hinder their work - they will continue to rescue horses and rehabilitate them. But it will actually help them. They can focus on the true worthy horses (the ones with the greatest potential to be good horses and adoptable - not all horses are 'noble' and 'companions' etc some are down right aggressive and mean or have issues in their head - ie crazy horses). To me rescuing every horse isn't possible anyway - so it weeds them down to the ones that are going to best benefit from their resources. If no one can afford to adopt them or care for them after adopting you are back in the same situation and rescues are I am sure overflowing. 

Kudos to all who have rescued a horse and help in that effort. But in all honesty I feel that not all horses should be rescued

Ive been around horses my whole life - I so enjoy their pleasure. I owned one, and hope to possible again in my future. But I doubt I will rescue one, to many variables Im not willing to deal with.


----------



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Firelight,
You are right .. no one can make these rules. I don't make these rules. I don't make any rules. Some Rules in life just happen to be already in place. I am done .. you all just carry on with it.


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

packhillboers said:


> Firelight,
> You are right .. no one can make these rules. I don't make these rules. I don't make any rules. Some Rules in life just happen to be already in place. I am done .. you all just carry on with it.


 I believe in God and the Bible...and no where does it specifically say one must ride horses. God didn't make a list detailing what the purpose of each animal was in regards to its use by humans? Whatever laws you are referring to that are already in place are in your head. And that's fine. If thats what you believe its your right. Try not to get so frustrated because we don't agree. Debate is fun but only if we all still like each other afterwards.


----------



## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

I think horse rescues are very good, with or without this new bill.
People working in horse rescues should try to save as many "good" horses as they can.
People should do the same for their goats. If they have a goat that is registered and for sale for $400 I don't see who in the world would buy it for meat.
I also highly doubt someone would pay 2500-5000 or whatever for a registered horse and eat it. Times are getting harder for people and they are going to be looking for free or extra cheap horses. Rescues should save the ones that have good breeding qualities or a horse that would make a good pet, not a horse that is lame or can't walk or a horse that has suffered for 5 years and will go on suffering (with some sort of disease).
People can also have a "not for meat" policy as what they have for their goats.


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

good point stacey. i dont believe in no kill shelters because not all dogs are good candidates for rehoming. not all horses are good for rehoming. merry no offense was intended to you personally, this is just a debate not a personal atyack on you because your thoughts are not the same as mine


----------



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

> Do you have any proof of this?
> 
> Have you actually been into a slaughterhouse?
> 
> ...


Yes, I've been in the smaller slaughter houses here in America. They all do a fantastic job, like what you described. What I was referring to was the large slaughter houses that average folk can't take their animals to. These are the ones that CAFO's take their animals to.


----------



## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

There is little that gets my goat more than *no kill* shelters. Some of these animals live terrible lives locked up. Even if they are fed and cared for; some of them can never be pets and should move on to make room for those who can. My daughter had a cat that they absolutely could not keep. He had become unmanageable and mean. Where she lives there were rules about where she could take him. I wish she could have taken him to a vet and had him put down but she just could not bring herself to do that. (I am pretty sure she regrets it now.) She took him to the shelter for her county and two years later they were looking for a dog and there in the cat house was her poor baby looking wild-eyed in the corner. She just cried and cried about that.
Some animals need to go. And if their bodies can be useful for food or scientific research (and I do not mean the torturing animals kind) they should be.
There is just no way to leagally put one non-human animal on a different scale than another. (Endangered species excepted.)
Living where we do we get cats dropped of (dumped) on a fairly regular basis. We keep the ones we can but some just have to go to the pound. They are usually dumped for a reason.


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

such a sad story luvmyherd  

what is CAFO's?


----------



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

CAFO: Confined Animal Feeding Operations. They are the gigantic "factory" farms that house thousands of animals on one small place. My county is known for it's dairy and chicken CAFO's. You can't throw a stick without hitting one around here. Our next county over is known for it's hog facilities. They are monstrous places that are usually barred from the public, have bio hazard signs posted everywhere, and look completely deserted, save for the animals.


----------



## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

>>>> They are monstrous places that are usually barred from the public, have bio hazard signs posted everywhere, and look completely deserted, save for the animals.<<<<
One of the major reasons we grow our own food.

My husband gets upset everytime we drive by the *organic* beef farm near us. They have veal pens. Just because it is fed organic does not mean they are treated humanely.


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I see. Intensive production systems. 

I have been heavily involved in the feedlot industry (goats and cattle) and I will be the first to support this industry, it is not all cruelty as people tend to say. But that is a debate for another time and place.


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

While I don't want to jump into this discussion as I have my beliefs and I still can not and will not support horse slaughter, I did want to share this link with you all. The USDA is setting the record straight, and although the ban has been lifted, it sounds as if horse slaughter will NOT start in the US again because of other laws, etc. This is good news. I have hundreds of friends who work so very hard placing horses, taking in rescues, fostering animals, and lifting the ban really was a kick in the gut for them.

http://blogs.usda.gov/2011/12/09/settin ... slaughter/

Also, Frank Stronach owner of Adena Springs farm, whom have been at the top of the thoroughbred breeding program for years, also owns such racetracks as Santa Anita in CA, Gulfstream park in FL, etc. he has been working on stepping up the retirement program they have in place for horses who need a second chance in life.

Check out this video my friend Jen did for our local news a couple of days ago. This is Three Chimney's farm, they are about 2 miles up the road from us, and very wonderful. They have had champions at their farm such as Seattle Slew, triple crown winner in 1977 <11 triple crown winners, and last one was in 1978!>. Smarty Jones called their stallion barn home up until last year when he moved to the northeast. Big Brown stands there, as well as Dynaformer who is a top stallion.






There are a lot of farms like Three Chimneys', but there are some big operations I feel that NEED to step up their game. I am unsure if the big Irish farm or even the mid eastern folks have a program in place or not. 
MANY care, but many more need to step up and take responsability.
Of course then it leaves the little backyard breeders who are neglectful, or uncaring, or undereducated people.. I still feel if you take on an animal, you need to be smart enough to know what your getting into, becuase anything happens to that animal it's YOUR responsability.

IMO I LOVE the words of Seabiscuit trainer Tom Smith once said, 'You don't throw a life away just because it's banged up a little.' There are so many horses that could be nice with some time, TLC, and a little treatment of whatever injury they have. 
I know people want to buy healthy, sound horses, and may not know enough to pinpoint a fixable injury vs. a permanent injury that makes a horse unridable or life threatening. But still, for those who have a little $$ in their lives, don't overlook the ones who are hurting, and could go on to be something special. Give them a chance. Sure it's not right a new owner has to fix what damage the old one did, but still...I know to me, it would be worth it.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Dec 12, 2011)

i am totally for horse slaughter, i own 7 horses myself. and i'd probably never send them off to slaughter. but i have personally witnessed horses with elf feet, so skinny that just died in people's back yards. i would ahve rather have seen them off to slaughter. a short quick death is better then a loooooooong drawn out one.

i also want to point out that horses sent for slaughter SHOULDNT be used for human consumption... mainly because if you ever read your horse wormer package is says "do not use for horses intended for human consumption"... it says that for a reason. and probably a very good one. the horses being sent to slaughter arn't raised and treated like cattle. they were someone's pet and probably have had wormer and chemicals and such that shouldn't be consumed. thats just my $.02


----------



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

Sounds interesting, but I'm highly suspicious. I trust USDA as far I can throw a bull. USDA doesn't go back on their word. They'll twist their words, and use clever tactics that make it seem like they will, but I have yet to see/hear a time when I truly did do something good.


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

lilkitty90 said:


> i am totally for horse slaughter, i own 7 horses myself. and i'd probably never send them off to slaughter. but i have personally witnessed horses with elf feet, so skinny that just died in people's back yards. i would ahve rather have seen them off to slaughter. a short quick death is better then a loooooooong drawn out one.
> 
> i also want to point out that horses sent for slaughter SHOULDNT be used for human consumption... mainly because if you ever read your horse wormer package is says "do not use for horses intended for human consumption"... it says that for a reason. and probably a very good one. the horses being sent to slaughter arn't raised and treated like cattle. they were someone's pet and probably have had wormer and chemicals and such that shouldn't be consumed. thats just my $.02


How much of the horses do you think are slaughtered for human consumption? ALL OF THEM  They are slaughtered for 'foreign human consumption.'
If a horse is in someone's back yard suffering I'd rather see someone who knows how to use a gun pull the trigger and end the suffering, than have the horse go through a slaughter kill buyer, get shuffled around until they get a truckload, and go through the miles of getting to that slaughter house. Sure it's a quick death, sometimes...but getting to that point can be the worst for them.

And here I am getting back on this subject 

Anyway, a happy note is, a photographer friend who works with Camelot auction to help place horses <she photographs every horse that comes through and they post them on the internet>. They put together a calendar, and have raised over $26,000 in sales for one of the rescue groups! So wonderful 

Winstar farm whom just had the Breeders Cup Classic champion, also had last year's Kentucky Derby winner, is one of the newer <last 10 years> farms on the block and they are a major establishment about 3 miles from us. They have retirement for their horses, and also do what they can to help raise some $$ and donate $$ to rescues.
They just had a bunch of ebays with some collectibles from their horses and all proceeds go to charity. These farms are starting to step it up a little more and more.

Still it doesn't help those backyard horses that neglectful, non thinking people breed and don't know what to do with...


----------



## AZHomesteadergal (Mar 17, 2012)

I know there are alot of people who can take care of horses, and would be morst homoured to. I myself took two female horses in, one was a 21 year thourobread (and she knows it lol ) that the owner's could no longer keep, she has been with us 3 years now and will be with us until she dies. I also have an 19 year old ranch horse who was put out to retired I saved her from being sent to a slaughter house, she is a sweet horse and likes to be rode, she was very skinny we fed her up and she looks so good, she will also live with us until she dies. Horses in my belief are not for eating. Horses are not the same as cows, sheep, or goats. I believe certain animals were oked to eat and others weren't. This is my belief everyone has their own. They can take the animals away from the people who dont feed them and abuse them and give them to people who want to rescue them. Just think about this, most people who abuse and starve animals dont give up their animals until they die so whats the slaughter houses good for except to cause a horrific death to a poor horse. Look at the meat animals that the people who kill them for people to eat, they treat the animals like their something with no feelings, their sickly and they still drag them to be killed then put in the stores for people to eat. They poke them with sticks, kick them, and be really mean to them. Try going to a place just once that kills meat animals for the stores. You will look at meat in a whole new way. No horses are not to be killed for hunan food or dog or any other animal.


----------



## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

^^ some good points.
Our family doesn't like eating pork, rabbit, or even horse. Being that it isn't a meat that is as healthy as beef,chicken,goat,sheep.
It is also in the bible what is good or bad. However that is no longer a rule of any sort, but the same is true about it being unhealthy.
This doesn't mean we should be anti-pork or anything. If a friend gives us a hunk of pork we don't throw it out, we eat it or find another friend who would like it. The "bad" meats aren't as bad if you don't have it all the time.

Everyone has a good pet theory in mind and everyone one has the right to have their own opinion.
Mine is that if times get hard and I can't feed a huge horse then I need to find it a new home.
If we were really hurting (there may come a time) I would rather feed hungry neighbors "meat" than give it away to someone who may eat it anyways. But if there was a way of keeping such a pet I would try my hardest.

Also I don't like any slaughterhouse. Being that it has the word "slaughter" in it.
I don't believe any animal, meat or not, should go that way.
For this reason I am the only one to kill animals on our property and I raise most of it.
The animal needs to be dead in about 1 minute or less and should never have any stress its whole life.
I don't believe horses should be sent to slaughterhouses.
I rather believe farmers should kill a horse(and eat) rather let let it die of starvation, in a need situation.
Too many horses are starving because people can't feed them and due to their health issues people won't even take them for free.
I have seen nice horses go for $5 because people don't want to feed them. Each horse adds on 2000-$3000 a year, more if the horse needs vet help. Of course a sick horse should not be eaten but at least killing it would save a slow death.

Just saying my opinion...again.
Everyone is welcome to state their opinion.


----------

