# Trouble getting doelings bred?



## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Long post...sorry! Hopefully I cover all the possible questions you might have 

I have a 4 year old Nigerian Dwarf buck to breed 4 doelings and a 2 year old doe with. All girls are standard size crossbreeds, one is 1/2 ND but seems pretty tall to me. He has been with all the doelings for at least 2 cycles now and 1 cycle with my doe. It doesn't appear he is being very successful. He may have successfully bred 1 of the doelings...if she isn't bred I missed her 2nd cycle with him. I've been doing my best to watch them and "help" him out because he is shorter than them all but it doesn't appear that it has helped very much. By helping I usually catch and hold the doeling and/or bring her over and back her up to a couple of pallets I have stacked on top of eachother and he gets a nice "lift" from them! Am I doing things "right"? Is there something else I should be doing? My buck seems to be in good health. He is nice and smelly, pees on himself all the time (I did have to apply some idodine the other day on his urine burn that I discovered and today I put bag balm on to help). I noticed an ever so slight "limp" as well, but I can't seem to find anything that would cause it (just trimmed up his feet again too) so I'm assuming he just pulled something, maybe because everyone is taller than him?? Would that be why he is having problems? His penis seems to function just fine as well. I'm at a loss here...hopefully I'm just being impatient and he bred more during their second cycles. If/When 3rd cycle comes around and I'm still not having good luck I'm thinking I need to consider he is just having issues and I need to find a different buck. How many cycles do you all usually give your buck? I realize mine is a little "special" of a circumstance due to his small size and their larger sizes. Lastly, the doelings all appear to be in good condition as well, hopefully none are too "healthy"  A couple are a little on the round side!
Thanks!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The only thing I'm wondering is, Why are you thinking your does are not bred? You mentioned one doe that you have not seen come back into heat... But you have not mentioned anyone coming back into heat...

So... Has anyone come back into heat, and if so, when? Is your buck with your does all the time, or do you only put him with a doe in standing heat?


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Sorry, I will clarify better. You are correct, at the moment I have no reason to suspect that during the second or third (for one doeling) cycles that he did not get anything else bred. I just feel like he should have gotten more than the one bred during the first cycle. I assisted a fair amount with 2 of the doelings during their first and second cycles with him and the second and third cycles with the other. The one doeling I am not anticipating she'll be bred, but she should be the next one to come in (this will be her third cycle with him). I don't think she has gotten bred yet because the first time I didn't really assist (and she's one of the taller ones) and because of poor timing on my part during the second cycle. I had to put my doe in the pen the same day the doeling came into heat and ended up distracting my buck pretty bad.

He is with them all the time (he was put in with all of them, other than the doe, on 10/19 and has been with the one doeling since 10/3).

So do you think I just need to be a bit more patient and see how things go after their third cycles come or don't? I just don't know how much time I need to give him...or how much help to give him due to the height difference.

Does it sound like I'm doing things "right"? This is my first time owning goats, let alone breeding them  So any advice is greatly appreciated!

Thank you @mariarose !


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

So here's dates/names/etc that might also help:

Lilo - put in with Billy 10/3 and appeared to be in heat that day
- in heat 10/27
- in heat 11/17-11/18
Daisy - put in with Billy 10/19 and was in heat that day
- in heat 11/6-11/7
Lori - put in with Billy 10/19
- in heat 10/25-10/26
Rowdy - put in with Billy 10/19
- in heat 11/1
- in heat 11/21-11/22
Fluttershy - put in with Billy 11/6/17
- in heat 11/14-11/15

Lori is obviously the one that I'm thinking is bred and Fluttershy is the doe.

We also had the neighbor's Pygmy goat come over and we tried to breed her on 9/4 and 11/20. She's a pretty old goat though so I'm not sure she'll even catch.

Thanks again!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Ok, Here is what I see. October is the normal "beginning" of breeding season. I se does and doelings going into heat earlier and driving the bucks (and me) nuts.... but not actually settling (becoming pregnant) before at least September.

Yes, I do have some "year round" breeders... just seems to make us all crazier!!!!!!!

I'm GUESSING that they are all bred by now.

Experienced bucks and does don't need as much "help" as we think they do. Inexperienced does (including doelings) quickly become experienced.

Many of us are unwilling to leave bucks with does. We like to see the deed, so to speak. Since you are willing, just let the buck stay with the does you want to breed and keep watching. I'm pretty convinced that the doelings you want bred will be bred by the end of breeding season (typically January) The grown up girls will know what those urges mean and will figure out the booster system. The doelings will be clueless, but really horny, and are probably short enough to be gotten in spite of their adolescent numbskullity.

I'll bet you have more bred already than you think you have.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

How old are these doelings?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Ooh, that is a good question....


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I hope you're right  There has really only been one doeling that hasn't quite figured out how to stand still...lol...she teases the tar out of him and stands still until he goes to mount her.
I'm not too concerned about the doe, she was bred to a ND last year (before I purchased her) and this will be her third breeding season. But, she is tall...so we'll see.

I'm home most of the time so I'm constantly looking out at them or watching them when I am outside. If I was not home this much I may not do things this way.

They were all born in April. Lilo, Lori, & Rowdy were like April 10th-ish and Daisy was April 27th. All are good sized and shouldn't be too small (weight or height wise). Lori and Lilo are shorter, but I believe that has to do with their genetics so I'm not concerned there.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Just because they "are the right size" doesn't mean they are ready. The one may just not be ready yet.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I certainly won't disagree, I was just pointing out that age, height and weight wise there is no reason for them not to be ready and capable of being bred safely. Hormones are for sure another important factor to consider. Any one of the doelings could be ready age, height and weight wise but not hormonaly ready or got it "figured out" yet. I'm assuming that is what you meant?

Thank you for your help!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

To clarify a bit more...the main reason I'm "helping" is due to the height difference between the buck and the doelings and doe, not due to them not holding still enough. There has only been the one doeling (Rowdy) that doesn't seem to want to stand well for him and I have helped her by holding her still for him as well as taking her over to the pallets. If she doesn't catch, then she is not ready and that's ok too. Thank you @ksalvagno for reminding me of the hormone side of things, to be honest I hadn't really thought about it much until you brought it up and it makes perfect sense 

I think after this discussion I just need to be more patient and see how things play out. How many cycles do you all wait before you feel like you have good reason to be concerned? (Concerned about low sperm count or some other factor causing nothing to get bred or a low % of bred does.)

Thanks again!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

How do his testicles look? They should look large and well... "plump" or filled out and firm to the feel.

I had an older buck who still showed all the signs of rut but did not seem to be getting the job done although I witnessed multiple matings. Then one day I noticed his sack was noticeably smaller than that of a much smaller buck. And it looked kinda shriveled.

You could have called it a bit of a sad sack. And when I felt it seemed not quite full and firm. I felt the other bucks and there was a big difference.


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I generally give some Replamin gel to my bucks when I put them in with the girls to be bred. I also do their feet at that time so their legs are strong. Selenium has a big impact on fertility, and the Replamin contains that.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I checked him before putting him in the breeding pen, probably in September but it may have been August. When we were doctoring him (urine burn) last week I forgot to feel his sack then, but his sack did look nice and plump. 

I'm not sure what our selenium levels are like here...that may be something to look into giving him. Is that something that a place like TSC would have?

Thanks again!


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I buy mine online, I think from Jeffers or Valley Vet, I don't remember which.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You can order Replamin plus from TSC, but you can't buy it at the store itself. It is also expensive there.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I wouldn't of bred the doelings until 1 year old, no matter size, that is just me. 
So many factors can arise, the buck being a bigger breed type, too big of kid(s)(C-section), feeding issues, not mature enough in the head to be a mama. 

Trouble begins by trying to feed the doeling so she can grow along with her babies within. She will put most of her resources on her kids and not herself. Feeding too much can also create issues of pregnancy toxemia and over sized kids. It is such a fine line. It can stunt her growth and her full potential. Sorry about the rant, but it does upset me to hear. 

Do they have access to free choice loose salt and minerals, with copper and selenium in it?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

REALLY good points, Pam. I'll keep them in mind from now on.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I think you misread...my buck is a smaller breed type. He is a Nigerian Dwarf and all the doelings and my doe are all crosses of standard dairy breeds, with the exception of one of the doelings (Daisy) that is 1/2 Nigerian Dwarf. They do have access to free choice loose goat mineral. I have put out loose salt in the past, but they don't ever seem to touch it and just waste it. I know there is copper in the mineral and I'm fairly certain there is selenium as well...not sure how much of each without looking though. Do you have a recommendation for a goat mineral? I do feel like the one I have isn't probably the "best" out there but it was all I could find around here at the moment.

No need to apologize for your opinion (and experience), we are all entitled to our own


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Almost all people have to supplement copper and selenium above and beyond even the best mineral. The ground is just too depleted and they need more than manufacturers are willing to put in a mineral mix. I personally don't think the problem is your male unless he is mineral deficient. I think your main problem is your expecting young females who may not be quite mature enough yet to get bred on your schedule. Nature doesn't always oblige our schedule.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

All of my girls have received copper boluses this year. I didn't give my buck one...I guess I wasn't sure if that was something he should also receive, given gender differences and how their bodies might work a little differently. I'm assuming then by the sounds of it that I should go ahead and give him one? I have both 2g and 4g boluses, given his size I should give him a 4g bolus, correct?

Yah, I think I just need to be more patient too  It's hard to not get eager/excited though! lol


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I give my bucks and does the same amount of copper. Copper requirements have more to do with hair color (darker goats need more) than gender.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

rodeorulz said:


> Do you have a recommendation for a goat mineral? I do feel like the one I have isn't probably the "best" out there but it was all I could find around here at the moment.


Why yes, we have lots of suggestions! What brand and formula are you currently using, and what makes you suspect it isn't the best for you?

BTW, I don't think there is a "best" because the mineral mix needs to match your other inputs. An example, if I lived somewhere that bioavailable selenium was abundant, the mineral I currently need would be disastrous.

So tell us what you are using, and how it is working for you, and we'll see how we can help?


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I currently am using Ranchway Feeds Goat Mineral.
I don't know, just that some of the minerals seem a little low-ish I guess. I'm not 100% sure how to tell if it is "working" without doing bloodwork or a necropsy...what other ways can I tell?
I know that "best" will vary by location, animal specific needs (bred, not bred, age, gender, etc), levels of minerals in their feed and water, personal opinion, and so on  That's why I quoted the word  But it never hurts to point that out, thank you!
Last time we had our water tested it had high sodium levels, I'm wondering if maybe that is why they don't seem to use the loose salt?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with what has been said.

High sodium in their water doesn't help. They won't want to go for the loose minerals, you are right.
Anyway to filter the water?

A copper bolus 4gm will help the buck, if he is having breeding issues. Does he have a fishtail?

I use:
*SWEETLIX® 16:8 Meat Maker® Mineral (11682)* 
http://www.sweetlix.com/products/C14A34/meat-maker-products.aspx

*SE-90 with Selenium*
http://nasalt.net/products/american-stockman-agricultural-salts

I mix the two. You can just do scoop to scoop, then mix it as you go, one has good copper while the other has good selenium. I am in a really deficient area, so make sure you find out if the place you live in is or isn't deficient.


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

Super awesome info here! I just wanted to add though, that it is recommended to give the buck his selenium injection one month BEFORE breeding season, as it can temporarily cause semen morphology issues. I don't know if the selenium level in Replamin is high enough to cause the same issues though, but since many give it 1-2 times monthly to their deficient animals, while Bo-Se is usually a once or twice a year injection, I doubt it has the same problems.

As far as copper, again it depends on your area, and it takes a little time and experimentation to figure out exactly how much and how often your individual herd will need it. I dose mine at 1 gram per 22 lbs. Most of mine seem to be doing well with a bolus every 3 months, though I have a couple who need it every other month.

My well water is high in calcium and iron, and as I free feed alfalfa, which is very high in calcium to phosphorus ratio, I use Sweetlix Caprine Magnum Milk minerals, which is a 1:1 ratio for calciumhosphorus.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

rodeorulz said:


> I currently am using Ranchway Feeds Goat Mineral.


I'm unfamiliar with this one and I'll happily delve into it!



rodeorulz said:


> I'm not 100% sure how to tell if it is "working" without doing bloodwork or a necropsy...what other ways can I tell?


By patiently learning the physical signs of deficiency and toxicity for the minerals in question. There will be a test on this at the end of the day, hahaha!



rodeorulz said:


> I know that "best" will vary... That's why I quoted the word  But it never hurts to point that out, thank you!


I just wanted to take some stress off of those shoulders of yours. You are doing great.



rodeorulz said:


> Last time we had our water tested it had high sodium levels, I'm wondering if maybe that is why they don't seem to use the loose salt?


Unlike some here, I never give loose salt. I make them work for the salt to encourage licking the minerals to get salt. Free access to Baking Soda will also decrease mineral intake for the same reason. So high sodium content in the water would also decrease that intake. I second the suggestion to filter the water, or get a rain collection system set up. Even if you can't completely replace your water with rainwater, any such dilution would help.

Here is a current thread on water quality issues.

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/well-water-or-filtered-water.194462/

Here is a recent thread on loose minerals for your viewing pleasure. I'll look into your current choice.

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/excellent-minerals-you-know-how-i-love-me-those-minerals.194612/


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It isn't wise not to give free choice loose salt and minerals. If the blocks are used, goats do not get enough from it. It is hard on their tongues too. 
They can lick at it all day and not get their daily recommended dose of what they crave.
Not sure if that is what you mean by "working at it"?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I just meant that for most of the year, they have to lick the free choice loose minerals (which have 10-17 percent salt) and the free choice kelp meal (which I don't know the percentage of salt, but it is really salty) in order to get salt. I don't keep loose salt out where it is easy for them to go to the salt instead of to the minerals. They definitely have salt available, but it is attached to the minerals and the kelp. They can't just lick loose salt.

I know that you have a different system in place, and that it works well for you. Here, they won't get all their minerals if I let them eat salt alone.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Loose salt and minerals has salt in it, some even have way too much, they don't require a lot of salt alone like that, especially if you have salt separate.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

That is why I don't give loose salt, by which I mean granular salt, not in a block. Too easy to go to that, not to the loose minerals, by which I mean granular, not in a block and not mixed with 99% salt, only 10-20% salt.

We are probably meaning the same thing but confusing each other with language. Smile.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

At this moment I don't think there is anything we can do about the sodium levels in our water. We do want to retest and see how things have changed now that we've been here for a year and the well has had a chance to develop some more.

They do consume their loose mineral very well so it's not keeping them from that at all. I'll have to check for a fishtail on my buck...but I don't think he has one.

How do I find out what kind of selenium levels we have here? Extension office??

Here is the mineral: http://www.ranch-way.com/products/goat-feed/ranch-way-ranch-o-min-11-goat-mineral
And here's the guaranteed analysis pulled from that link:

Calcium, min15 %
Calcium, max18 %
Phosphorus, min9 %
Salt, min9 %
Salt, max10.5 %
Magnesium, min1.0 %
Zinc, min5,630 ppm
Copper, min1,170 ppm
Selenium, min24 ppm
Vitamin A, min175,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D, min17,500 IU/lb
Vitamin E, min2,000 IU/lb
For feed our goats get straight alfalfa hay as well as whatever native grasses, greasewood, sagebrush, and weeds that are around (not much other than hay to eat this time of year around here though). They also get a mixture of alfalfa pellets, a sweet feed (sometimes in pelleted form sometimes not), and oats in the morning.

I'll have to look at our last water results to see what else our water has and how much, etc...I know it is kind of wonky :S

@SundewFarms good to know about the selenium and bucks!

There is so much good info here everyone! Thank You, Thank You, Thank You! 

So much to learn still...all the help and shared experience is seriously very, very appreciated!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Minerals look OK. But not sure what your area has for selenium levels.

You are feeding properly as well.

You can ask your vet they may or may not know.

Otherwise, we go by the map.
https://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/se/usa.html


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I looked closer at my buck...I would say he does not have a fishtail. However, I have only had him since the beginning of August too so we'll see if things change after we've had him longer.
https://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/county.php?place=f56025&el=Se&rf=north-central
Here's what it says for my area (from the link above):
*Average concentrations of elements in Natrona County, Wyoming*
*(Calculated from cells in the geochemical grid plotting in this area.)
Element* *Symbol* *Mean* *Std. dev.* *Minimum* *Maximum*
Aluminum Al (wt%) 4.941 0.577 2.643 6.449
Arsenic As (ppm) 5.814 1.606 2.232 14.179
Calcium Ca (wt%) 2.116 1.008 0.509 7.866
Copper Cu (ppm) 9.621 3.200 3.087 30.663
Iron Fe (wt%) 2.037 0.409 0.727 3.673
Mercury Hg (ppm) 0.019 0.009 0.010 0.068
Magnesium Mg (wt%) 0.850 0.366 0.228 2.981
Manganese Mn (ppm) 327.186 106.811 133.482 824.518
Sodium Na (wt%) 0.846 0.283 0.248 2.964
Phosphorus P (wt%) 0.060 0.013 0.021 0.132
Lead Pb (ppm) 21.296 3.639 9.778 35.912
Selenium Se (ppm) 0.470 0.308 0.101 2.797
Titanium Ti (wt%) 0.237 0.054 0.107 0.550
Zinc Zn (ppm) 54.182 12.086 20.488 118.959

How does that all look?


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Also, unless Daisy comes into heat within the next day or maybe two I am pretty certain she is bred!  Yay!
And I sent Lilo to the sale barn today (she was not good with kids, which is a big problem since we have our kids and neighbor kids here all the time) so I won't know if she was bred or not now.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Oh and my neighbor is thinking her pygmy goat is around 12 years old. Is that on the verge of too old to breed successfully? She has at least kidded in the past I know.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Depends on health and if her last kidding was an easy one. Biggest thing being she is still in optimal health.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.


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## Jewel52 (May 9, 2016)

rodeorulz said:


> Long post...sorry! Hopefully I cover all the possible questions you might have
> 
> I have a 4 year old Nigerian Dwarf buck to breed 4 doelings and a 2 year old doe with. All girls are standard size crossbreeds, one is 1/2 ND but seems pretty tall to me. He has been with all the doelings for at least 2 cycles now and 1 cycle with my doe. It doesn't appear he is being very successful. He may have successfully bred 1 of the doelings...if she isn't bred I missed her 2nd cycle with him. I've been doing my best to watch them and "help" him out because he is shorter than them all but it doesn't appear that it has helped very much. By helping I usually catch and hold the doeling and/or bring her over and back her up to a couple of pallets I have stacked on top of eachother and he gets a nice "lift" from them! Am I doing things "right"? Is there something else I should be doing? My buck seems to be in good health. He is nice and smelly, pees on himself all the time (I did have to apply some idodine the other day on his urine burn that I discovered and today I put bag balm on to help). I noticed an ever so slight "limp" as well, but I can't seem to find anything that would cause it (just trimmed up his feet again too) so I'm assuming he just pulled something, maybe because everyone is taller than him?? Would that be why he is having problems? His penis seems to function just fine as well. I'm at a loss here...hopefully I'm just being impatient and he bred more during their second cycles. If/When 3rd cycle comes around and I'm still not having good luck I'm thinking I need to consider he is just having issues and I need to find a different buck. How many cycles do you all usually give your buck? I realize mine is a little "special" of a circumstance due to his small size and their larger sizes. Lastly, the doelings all appear to be in good condition as well, hopefully none are too "healthy"  A couple are a little on the round side!
> Thanks!!


I


rodeorulz said:


> Long post...sorry! Hopefully I cover all the possible questions you might have
> 
> I have a 4 year old Nigerian Dwarf buck to breed 4 doelings and a 2 year old doe with. All girls are standard size crossbreeds, one is 1/2 ND but seems pretty tall to me. He has been with all the doelings for at least 2 cycles now and 1 cycle with my doe. It doesn't appear he is being very successful. He may have successfully bred 1 of the doelings...if she isn't bred I missed her 2nd cycle with him. I've been doing my best to watch them and "help" him out because he is shorter than them all but it doesn't appear that it has helped very much. By helping I usually catch and hold the doeling and/or bring her over and back her up to a couple of pallets I have stacked on top of eachother and he gets a nice "lift" from them! Am I doing things "right"? Is there something else I should be doing? My buck seems to be in good health. He is nice and smelly, pees on himself all the time (I did have to apply some idodine the other day on his urine burn that I discovered and today I put bag balm on to help). I noticed an ever so slight "limp" as well, but I can't seem to find anything that would cause it (just trimmed up his feet again too) so I'm assuming he just pulled something, maybe because everyone is taller than him?? Would that be why he is having problems? His penis seems to function just fine as well. I'm at a loss here...hopefully I'm just being impatient and he bred more during their second cycles. If/When 3rd cycle comes around and I'm still not having good luck I'm thinking I need to consider he is just having issues and I need to find a different buck. How many cycles do you all usually give your buck? I realize mine is a little "special" of a circumstance due to his small size and their larger sizes. Lastly, the doelings all appear to be in good condition as well, hopefully none are too "healthy"  A couple are a little on the round side!
> Thanks!!


i


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## Jewel52 (May 9, 2016)

*I have a buck who is a Nigerian dwarf and when he breeds girls the same size as him or smaller they get pregnant. But when he tries to breed my lamancha she never gets pregnant. She too tall. Tried on several different heat cycles and it doesn't take. So won't try again. Best to stick with there own size. *


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

There shouldn't be problem with shorter bucks to taller ones, putting the doe down in a hill or dropped area helps. If there is a will there is a way, believe me. Maybe the doe has an issue? 
I had a 4 month old boer buck when I first started out in boers, he was exposed to 24 mature boer does, every one of them had babies 5 months later. He was so much shorter than them. We didn't expect him to service them all, but he did.


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## ms_mac (Oct 7, 2012)

Rodeorulz, if I was not so far away we could trade out ND bucks for breeding. My little buck is 4 yrs old and is always successful. I have used him with my 2 big La Mancha girls and am not really sure how he managed it but he needed no assistance. My purpose is to produce a smaller doe with very good milk properties. You have come to the right forum to get advice. Goat people all over America are very willing to help and extremely knowledgeable. Best of luck with your breeding program.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thank you ms_mac.


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## newtogo (Jun 19, 2013)

rodeorulz said:


> Long post...sorry! Hopefully I cover all the possible questions you might have
> 
> I have a 4 year old Nigerian Dwarf buck to breed 4 doelings and a 2 year old doe with. All girls are standard size crossbreeds, one is 1/2 ND but seems pretty tall to me. He has been with all the doelings for at least 2 cycles now and 1 cycle with my doe. It doesn't appear he is being very successful. He may have successfully bred 1 of the doelings...if she isn't bred I missed her 2nd cycle with him. I've been doing my best to watch them and "help" him out because he is shorter than them all but it doesn't appear that it has helped very much. By helping I usually catch and hold the doeling and/or bring her over and back her up to a couple of pallets I have stacked on top of eachother and he gets a nice "lift" from them! Am I doing things "right"? Is there something else I should be doing? My buck seems to be in good health. He is nice and smelly, pees on himself all the time (I did have to apply some idodine the other day on his urine burn that I discovered and today I put bag balm on to help). I noticed an ever so slight "limp" as well, but I can't seem to find anything that would cause it (just trimmed up his feet again too) so I'm assuming he just pulled something, maybe because everyone is taller than him?? Would that be why he is having problems? His penis seems to function just fine as well. I'm at a loss here...hopefully I'm just being impatient and he bred more during their second cycles. If/When 3rd cycle comes around and I'm still not having good luck I'm thinking I need to consider he is just having issues and I need to find a different buck. How many cycles do you all usually give your buck? I realize mine is a little "special" of a circumstance due to his small size and their larger sizes. Lastly, the doelings all appear to be in good condition as well, hopefully none are too "healthy"  A couple are a little on the round side!
> Thanks!!


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## newtogo (Jun 19, 2013)

rodeorulz said:


> Long post...sorry! Hopefully I cover all the possible questions you might have
> 
> I have a 4 year old Nigerian Dwarf buck to breed 4 doelings and a 2 year old doe with. All girls are standard size crossbreeds, one is 1/2 ND but seems pretty tall to me. He has been with all the doelings for at least 2 cycles now and 1 cycle with my doe. It doesn't appear he is being very successful. He may have successfully bred 1 of the doelings...if she isn't bred I missed her 2nd cycle with him. I've been doing my best to watch them and "help" him out because he is shorter than them all but it doesn't appear that it has helped very much. By helping I usually catch and hold the doeling and/or bring her over and back her up to a couple of pallets I have stacked on top of eachother and he gets a nice "lift" from them! Am I doing things "right"? Is there something else I should be doing? My buck seems to be in good health. He is nice and smelly, pees on himself all the time (I did have to apply some idodine the other day on his urine burn that I discovered and today I put bag balm on to help). I noticed an ever so slight "limp" as well, but I can't seem to find anything that would cause it (just trimmed up his feet again too) so I'm assuming he just pulled something, maybe because everyone is taller than him?? Would that be why he is having problems? His penis seems to function just fine as well. I'm at a loss here...hopefully I'm just being impatient and he bred more during their second cycles. If/When 3rd cycle comes around and I'm still not having good luck I'm thinking I need to consider he is just having issues and I need to find a different buck. How many cycles do you all usually give your buck? I realize mine is a little "special" of a circumstance due to his small size and their larger sizes. Lastly, the doelings all appear to be in good condition as well, hopefully none are too "healthy"  A couple are a little on the round side!
> Thanks!!


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## newtogo (Jun 19, 2013)

Hi,
Several years ago I started using a Nigerian Dwarf buck, at the time only 8 months old, with several full-sized Kiko does and he had no problem getting them bred then nor the two next years. He required no help of any kind to make up for the height difference. Basically, the does lower their hindquarters to make it easier for him to enter. This year I have him with our purebred Nigerian Dwarf does and bigger Kikos, while our 8 month old cross-bred buckling - 1/2 Nigerian and 1/2 Kiko is in with our other crossbreed does. He isn't anywhere near as bucky as his Sire but so far he's settled three does and is hanging around the last two. However, last year I sold a Nigerian Dwarf buck to a friend of mine with Spanish does and she told me he had no luck at all. Honestly - I think she may have given up too early. From what I've read, it's very unusual for these guys to be duds!
Andrea McKinney
Bloomsburgplantation.com


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Thank you everyone  I agree...it shouldn't be a problem breeding a ND to the larger/standard breeds. So far I think I'm just being impatient as it looks like I do have 2 doelings bred with little help from me (again all I really did was catch and hold, usually next to the pallets so he got a boost).
I'd much rather be breeding a small buck to doelings than something that is larger than them...think "kidding" ease (kind of like ranchers will do with their first time calvers, aka heifers, they'll often focus a little more on calving ease to make it easier on them). A buck of the same size should be just fine I would think...although I would still opt for the smaller buck. This is one of the reasons I chose a ND to breed since I mostly have doelings to breed this year...not sure what I was thinking there...this spring will be fun with stanchion and hand milk training!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Don't wait until kidding to start the stanchion and udder handling training. Start that now.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

That's a great suggestion! I had been handling them all over, including the udder region, during the summer. I can't access my stanchion very well at the moment...too much winter feed stacked on it! lol. But I should clear it off and start practicing now, I'm sure I'll appreciate later!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm sure you will appreciate it. I always have!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Just a minor update:
Our first kids should be due the end of March. We should have had 2 more girls due to kid in April but my doe lost her kid(s) the first of Jan 
I am still waiting on Rowdy to breed up. I also have my brother and sister-in-law's goats here now and the 3 of them came into heat the end of Dec beginning of Jan so we will know shortly how that went. I suspect it went well since they are all 3 mature does 
Questions:
How long would you give Rowdy to breed up? I am thinking if she doesn't breed up by her last cycle this season then she needs to go. Reason being I am thinking then it could likely be some hormonal or reproductive system issue.
And...maybe this one should be in a new post...regarding my doe that lost her kid(s), how long should it be before she has a regular cycle and can breed back? I have left her in with everyone, including my buck, and I have witnessed him trying to breed her 3 different days now. Each time was roughly a week apart and the first time was 3 or 4 days after she was bleeding. I don't want to push my luck and have her breed back when she hasn't fully recovered so I have been thinking I need to pull her out and pen her up separately...
But of course we are now due to get around 8" of snow this weekend and my other pen is not very winter friendly.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The amount of time to give Rowdy is up to you. Some people have the vet check them and they try hormones. But only you can decide how much money and time you want to spend. There is a good chance that aborted girl is already bred again. She really should not have been in there. Even just the breeding is going to slow her healing from this.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with Karen.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Thanks ladies. I really am wishing I would have pulled her out of the pen. I didn't think she would "cycle" this fast or whatever is going on with her hormones to make it seem like she is cycling 
Rowdy in unfortunately just a grade/commercial goat and nothing special in that regard. I was just curious what anybody else might do in this situation.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

They cycle basically right after giving birth.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

She didn't give birth in the traditional sense. She was around 1.5 months along and apparently absorbed whatever she had as all I ever saw was blood. Does that make a difference in how soon they would cycle?
We ended up with around 6" of snow but it looks like the weather will be pretty good though So I can move her out and pamper her a bit in her own pen.
How late have you been able to breed does? I am a little concerned we may be running into that issue if the other girls don't breed up soon if they haven't already. Rowdy and one of my brother & sister in law's 3 does did come into heat today.  I don't know if there is anything else I can do to help the girls catch other than give another buck a shot. Then I run into whether or not it is wise to invest in another buck this late in the breeding season.
Anyways...thanks everyone for your help and allowing me to "think out loud".


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If she absorb a pregnancy, it could of left mummification or an encapsulation within, blocking conception.
A vet can help with any possibility of it and sometimes antibiotic treatment helps to cure low grade infection type issues from it.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

@Jewel52 I was just going back and re-reading some of the comments on my post and noticed you mentioned your Nigerian Dwarf had issues breeding your LaMancha. Was she already full grown when he tried to breed her? I had good luck with mine breeding my brother and sister-in-laws adult LaMancha doe (but she has also kidded the last 3 years so she is definitely "in shape" for breeding). However, the doelings (2 of them, but I sold one of them) and now one doe (last year was her first time kidding) that I have had issues with breeding to my ND are LaMancha crosses of some sort! I am wondering if there may be some weird connection here and would love it if anybody else would chime in with their experience with this cross or maybe this is just "dumb luck" on my part.
Nonetheless, since the LaMancha cross doe did not breed after being with the buck for 2 cycles (last year she bred right up with my brother and sister-in-laws other two does with no problems) I believe that my buck is simply having issues breeding these girls...maybe his reproductive organs simply do not match up correctly with these girls like they did with the others.
So because of all this I've found a proven 3 year old Alpine buck that looks like he will be joining our herd  And if he can't get them bred I guess these two are just destined to not kid this year.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Anybody have any comments regarding the possibility of Rowdy's problem (and maybe the doe that hasn't bred up yet) being cycstic ovaries? And thoughts on trying cystorlin? What are the risks of using it if she doesn't have cycstic ovaries?
Thanks!


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