# Dr. Naylor Dehorning Paste. Good/Bad?



## firelight27

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc...=4X2FTBF9C5B99MDJ261M6071MKMQDNBF&pf_id=16159

What do you guys think of this? Have you ever used it? The idea is that you rub this stuff on their horn buds at only a few days old (it is caustic), and it kills horn growth. You shave where the buds are, rub it on, leave it for 20-30 minutes, and then wash it off with water and then vinegar. Tadah. The end. Sounds too easy...It says you can simply hold the kid for a half hour so it doesn't rub the area on things/mom/other goats. What is the catch? Do you think there is a high percentage of failure?


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## Shelly Borg

IMO bad
The stories I have heard is kids screaming in pain for whole half hour. Kids scared , loss of eye sight if gotten in eye. Really bad stuff. Its acid. It burns.


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## myfainters

Horrible please don't use it! It has caused blindness in kids and can cause severe burns if it gets on your skin or theirs.


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## firelight27

Thanks for the info. I agree after having searched around the net a bit more. Overall seems like a horrible product that everyone scream "NO!" about.


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## AlaskaBoers

yeah. a huge no. I wonder why they even sell it anymore.


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## keren

well I've used it a hundred times and never had any problems with it ... calves and kids

Put it on, duct tape over it so mum doesnt lick it off. 

easy and quick, and my babies have never screamed ...


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## FunnyRiverFarm

I know a lady that used it and most of her goats have scurs...she may not have used it properly because I have heard of some people that have had success with it. 

Personally, I think that burning is much easier on the humans and the goats...it is over in a matter of seconds and the goats go on their merry way. You don't have to worry about cleaning up and disposing of the caustic goop and you don't have to worry about burning things that were not meant to be.


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## Mully

Not good ....stay away from voodoo medicine.


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## crocee

This would be akin to putting a lye paste on YOUR head. Its very caustic and causes severe burns.


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## StaceyRosado

but in that same token crocee disbudding with an iron is like putting a hot iron on your skin -- OUCH 

I think it can be used effectively but since I have never used it I cant say that I would or wouldnt use it. 

Since Keren has had success with it maybe when she returns and has time she can post more about its use, effectiveness and more of a "how to"


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## keren

thanks stacey

these are the directions on the Dr Naylor product



> LAMBS, KID GOATS:
> Apply dehorning paste as soon as possible after birth if animal is in good physical condition. Minimum discomfort is experienced and application is facilitated. Application if the Paste on lambs and kids over two weeks old is generally too late to prevent future horn growth as the horns are too large, especially in males. Buck kids (males) usually have palpable horn buttons (buds) at birth. Kid does (female) are a little slower in developing horns. Clip the hair over and around the horn buttons. Apply a thin even film of Dehorning Paste over horn buttons and a narrow ring of skin at the base of the horn button. This ring of skin grows the horn. Too thick an application may result in deeper penetration and activity with discomfort. Dehorn dairy bucks at 3 to 4 days, dairy does at 4 days and always before 10 days. Pygmy bucks should be dehorned at 7 days, pygmy does at 7 to 10 days. Twenty to thirty minutes after Paste application scrape off Paste and neutralize treated area by flooding with water, then vinegar. Wash water and vinegar must not come in contact with animal's eyes. Kids and lambs may be wrapped in a blanket for a short period to prevent rubbing treated area with their hooves.
> 
> WARNING: POISON
> For external veterinary use only. This product is a form of caustic. Apply only with a wood applicator and as directed. Do not ingest. Avoid eye and skin contact. Use gloves to protect hands. Keep bottle tightly capped and in a safe place.


They are just a touch different to what I do, as I have used a different brand name of the same type of product.

Basically I do it as soon as you can feel horn buds, up to 1 wk old for goaties (standard size) and up to 1 mth old for calfies.

I dont trim the hair I just part it so I get the paste right down on the skin

I use a wooden 'paddle pop' stick, or a tongue depresser. You know like the doctor puts in your mouth and tells you to say 'ahhhh'. No idea what you call them over there.

Well I put the paste on the wooden stick, make sure you wear gloves btw, and smear a little paste over the horn bud. Dont go overboard putting it on, a little goes a long way.

Once its on, wipe the stick in the dirt to deactivate it.

Then, I put duct tape over the horn buds and around the animal's head - kinda like a big bandage all the way round. It looks ridiculous but it serves two purposes. One, if mama cow/goat licks baby's head, she doesnt get the paste in her mouth potentially causing a nasty and painful situation. And two the kid/calf cant rub it off before it does its job, potentially causing scurs.

With calves they go back out to the paddock, I dont bother removing the duct tape it falls off by itself eventually. With kids I take it off after 3 or 4 days.

I have heard all the horror stories about it burning holes in animal's heads ...

But I was taught to do it by someone who has always done it her whole life, and never had a problem. And I havent had a problem either.

I think if you do it correctly its safe. Similarly, if you disbud with an electric or hot iron, it can be dangerous if you dont do it right. But if you do it correctly its safe.


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## StaceyRosado

So you dont remove it like the product bottle suggests?


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## keren

no I dont - but that might be necessary with the Dr Naylors brand, I just dont know. 

sorry


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## firelight27

What brand did you use Keren? I've heard of people using Dr. Larson's and seemingly having better luck...but most seem to keep it on for a few days. It seems like it doesn't cause the kids much actual discomfort from the stories I have heard...that they don't seem to notice. It also seems that some people use tricks to keep it from rubbing/leaking such as making vasoline circles so the paste won't run beyond it, and the duct tape idea. Most people say you just have to leave it on long enough, and be careful to avoid the caustic from getting anywhere it shouldn't be. In other words, it won't get on mom, or in its eyes if you take the time to hold the kid the entire time period you are supposed to leave it on...and by using the duct tape.

In any case, has anyone used any of the pastes and actually followed the correct timing directions? (30 minutes?) I wonder if that is too little an amount of time?

I launched into continued study after Keren's story, and have found people arguing from both sides of the fence. It seems that people who use it on calves love it, and say the calves never even act bothered.


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## keren

well colour me red faced - I thought we had the Hornex brand, but I just went out and double checked and guess what it is actually Dr Naylors    

I think we've used the hornex stuff in the past too, I think its much of a muchness

yes, the animals dont seem to really express any pain or discomfort


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## FunnyRiverFarm

I kind of get the feeling that goats do not have a whole lot of nerve endings on the tops of their heads...makes sense when you think of what they use their heads for. 

Even when using the iron, the kids seem to be more upset about being restrained than they are about being burned.


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## bheila

I've only used it once and it was on a calf 3 years ago....didn't work. He DID NOT like it. It was obvious it was burning his head.


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## firelight27

So Keren. You leave Dr. Naylor's on for 3-4 days? Do you think it will not work if left on for the instructed time?


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## keren

I have absolutely no idea. Thats just how I was taught  Only one way to find out and thats try it and see ... you can always band the horns/scurs if it doesnt work ...


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## firelight27

Hmmm. Thanks for the info. I think I'll go ahead with the iron. I just am too afraid of ending up with scurs...or getting the acid where it shouldn't be. Knowing me I'd drip it on my arm and then my arm would fall off.


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## keren

haha, your arm wont fall off. I've had some on my fingers and it just stinged/tingled a bit. 

To each their own, I'm going to be using a disbudding iron for the first time this year.


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## SANDQ

I have used de-hornong paste on calves many times before all with 100% succses, but you do have to know what you are doing. 
I have just dehorned my first kid goat about 10 minutes ago, following the instructions on Dr Naylors box, and again no problems, a little crying, but that was more " where's my mum?" that ow this hurts.


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## SANDQ

Just thought I would add, that dehorning paste, is a strong alkali, not an acid. The reason for flooding with vinegar, is that predominatly, vinegar is acetic acid. Therfore, the acid neutralises any traces of alkali left on the horn bud.


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## firelight27

This is a really old thread, but thought I would say that I did end up using the paste and have used it ever since. Leave it on for twenty minutes on kids less than a week old and I've never had a single issue. Mine don't tend to get scurs either, where as plenty of goats I've bought who have been dehorned with an iron have some pretty large ones.


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## Stacykins

Firelight, do you clip the area around the hornbuds to make sure there is maximum contact with the bud?


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## shibby7

Okay, so I gave this a go yesterday because I had two suprise kids born late last week and disbudding with an iron has not been going so well for me. And I have to say, it really wasn't that bad!

There was no screaming just a few wimpers here and there and some head shaking once it kicked in but that's it. It was really easy to do, and to put on the water and vinegar after I just wrapped a towel around their ears, eyes & nose and lowered their heads and poured it on. 

Afterwards, they still shook their heads a bit, and a little rubbing, but no crying or acting like they were in shock. And they were completely themselves by the morning (I did it at night because of the heat). The "wounds" are nice, dry & clean, the flies aren't bothering them either.

Now just have to wait and see if we get scurrs, if not, this will probably be my preferred method over the iron.


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## firelight27

The only time I have gotten scurs is if I waited a little late and didn't leave it on for the full 20 minutes. I might get scurs on this last batch because I went to do it and didn't have clippers (or scissors!) so put it right on the hair. The burns don't look as effective because of the layers of fur it had to go through. We will see if these quads end up with anything...


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## shibby7

I did shave these two. I'm just hoping I got the spots big enough.


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## shibby7

Just a follow up to my first try - the two I did, do not have scurrs!! I am so happy to have finally found a method I'm confident and comfortable with. I'm glad I finally got brave enough to give it try.

:stars:


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## peggy

Would you share pictures with us??


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## shibby7

Sure Peggy I will take some tomorrow. I don't think I got any before pictures, not up close anyway, but I'll have a look. I'll remember it next time for sure though, maybe even get a video if I can get some help.

The doeling in my avatar is one I did, you can sort of see the bare spots, I think I took that picture about 3 or 4 weeks ago.

And just for reference, here is one I "disbudded" with an iron . Still not getting it right after years of trying......The vet will be coming to take her scurrs off for me, since the one is right against her head and will be causing some damage if left alone. I feel awful - so since the paste worked really well my first time, and was WAY less tramatic for both the goats and I, I will only be doing it from now on.


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## Shellshocker66

I have a boy from Firelight that she used the paste on. What a difference! There is absolutely nothing there! I need to get a picture as the hair is still in process of growing over the spots but you can see how smooth he is still.


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## firelight27

Shelley, yeah I LOVE the paste, especially on bucky-boys as they seem harder to keep scurs off of, but so far I have had great success. The last batch I did, the ones I mentioned didn't get their heads shaved...ONE of the boys has a really big scur because I didn't shave the hair first. Next time I won't forget the clippers, and if I do I will make sure to wait until I have them!


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## Shellshocker66

Well my photo attempts were a big huge NADA thanks to Thor bouncing around like he was on a pogo stick or trying to shove his head right into camera.

I'm going to need a holder and then maybe just maybe I will be able to post a picture of his "smooth as a babies bottom" head!


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## ksalvagno

What is the longevity of the paste? Can it sit on the shelf for years and still work or do you need to buy a new one every year? For someone with only a couple goats, I'm assuming they wouldn't use up the whole thing in one kidding season.


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## ThreeHavens

So you keep it on for 1/2 hour and it doesn't seem to bug them that much? I do have to say that it sounds tempting. We disbudded for the first time this year. We waited until we had a copper and white ring, popped the caps off when we could, burned an 'X' over the cap, everything we could possibly do. I still know we're going to end up with scurring on some of them, and to be honest even though the burning method is quick and it kills the nerve cells, it's still pretty traumatic while it's happening, probably just due to the fear after the first burn. 

I want to do what is easier for the baby ... I wonder if the paste is easier on them because there is no sudden shock or burning smell. Hmm ...


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## shibby7

Shellshocker66 said:


> Well my photo attempts were a big huge NADA thanks to Thor bouncing around like he was on a pogo stick or trying to shove his head right into camera.
> 
> I'm going to need a holder and then maybe just maybe I will be able to post a picture of his "smooth as a babies bottom" head!


I couldn't get photos either lol, I'll have to have someone hold them for me.

I'll check on my bottle and see what it says about keeping it - but it is only around $5 or so..... so its not like your spending very much even if you do have to throw it out every year. *ETA: I bought mine this year, and the expiration date on it is March 2016.*


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## shibby7

Also, I did notice that the "burns" are not at all like the burns you get with iron. They are not deep, they don't leave an indent or anything. Just a nice smooth area. So that's likey why its easier on them, plus you aren't holding their head down firmly like you do with the disbudding.


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## ThreeHavens

shibby7 said:


> Also, I did notice that the "burns" are not at all like the burns you get with iron. They are not deep, they don't leave an indent or anything. Just a nice smooth area. So that's likey why its easier on them, plus you aren't holding their head down firmly like you do with the disbudding.


Tell me about it. It's so hard holding their poor little heads still.'

I just noticed -- do you rais minis or full sized? We'll be raising both -- would this method work as well for a full-sized goat?


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## shibby7

I have a little bit of everything from minis on up. The two I did are Boer/Myotonic crosses, so they'll be on the larger side (150lbs+). And it worked great on them!


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## ThreeHavens

Good to know. And you just keep them away from momma for 1/2 hour, wash off, and set them out again?


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## shibby7

Yes that's all I did, following the directions for goats given in the box. So shave the hair off the buds, put a thin even layer of the paste on, let sit for 20 mins - 30mins (I did the full 30min), scrape off, rinse with water then vinegar. Done.
I held each of mine for the 1/2 hr, because I couldn't figure out the duct tape helmets everyone else was talking about. If I have to do a lot at one time, I'll figure out how to do the duct tape helmets because it would take less time to do more.


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## shibby7

Oh and I did somehow manage to get a glob of the paste on my shirt which I didn't notice until much later, and it stained my shirt (didn't make a hole though lol), so don't wear good clothes!


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## firelight27

For the duct tape helmet, I simply rip some duct tape into 8-9 strips...I will rip off a section of the tape and rip that into two to make the length/width I want. I then shave, put the paste on, and then apply the first strip over the paste. The the second hooking the first under the chin, one around the back of the head behind the ears...another on the top to make double sure the paste is covered, and then a few from the top tape around each ear...then I just slap more on until it looks secure. If you do it very secure you can let them go. They will try and scratch at it with a hind foot but usually give up pretty quickly. As far as trauma goes, it depends on the kid. Some I have had cry a few times and then lay down for the duration. Some have looked like they were dying, their heads flopped over and looking sad...some have screamed bloody murder the whole time. When I do it in the barn most of them seem more interested in exploring all of the neat stuff than worrying too much about their heads..so the fact that they can be distracted makes me feel like it musn't be as bad as some of them make it out to be. 

I use it 20-30 minutes as well and I have minis. I usually do 20 on does and 30 on buck kids. Just be careful when taking the helmet off or rinsing it. The first thing I do is get an old rag and wipe off the majority of the paste. Then I get a second rag doused in red wine vinegar and place it over the area and press down gently so I know the vinegar is coming out well and covering the area. Then I turn on the hose, hold the kid between my legs and tip their head way back as I a rinse. I've never gotten the paste in their eyes, but I HAVE gotten the vinegar in the eyes by trying to pour it on, and the vinegar will absolutely burn their poor eyeballs and make them swollen and watery for awhile...which is why I just use the rag full of vinegar. Its necessary to cancel the chemical reaction in the paste that causes the burning.


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## shibby7

Thank you firelight for explaining the helmet! 

The rag full of vinegar is a good suggestion too, I was able to pour it on with no trouble - but I wrapped a towel all the way around their heads, leaving only the top open and then I tipped them downward and poured it on.


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## Shellshocker66

I was all prepared to go the burning route.. Got my dehorner, got the plans for the box, and now I see Thor's smooth head I'm wondering about just doing the paste. Especially on the bucks which seem to scur so bad.


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## ThreeHavens

Is there someone who has used both methods who can compare the two?


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## Gertie

Oh, I haven't even had kids yet and I have been so dreading the burning. Makes me sick to my stomach. I think I would have to have someone else do it when I am not hear. I am so liking the paste thing. I know I could do that. I couldn't see the pictures but would like to. Great information!


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## Stacykins

Gertie said:


> Oh, I haven't even had kids yet and I have been so dreading the burning. Makes me sick to my stomach. I think I would have to have someone else do it when I am not hear. I am so liking the paste thing. I know I could do that. I couldn't see the pictures but would like to. Great information!


The paste technically is burning too...just a chemical burn rather than a heat related burn.


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## Gertie

Yes Stacykins, I do understand that. I think the thing for me is holding that burner and doing the job as where the paste does the job. I don't know why, it just seems more humane to me. I don't like any of it but I'm sure I will toughen up. I can see the pictures now, I wasn't logged in before. Thanks


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## xymenah

I'm so against removing horns in any way but I think if I had to I could use the paste. I would like to show some day and horned goats are not allowed. I have seen and helped with the iron method on over 100 kids. OMG I hated it. I have been burned with lye and a hot iron and I would much rather be burned with lye.


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## shibby7

My problem with the disbudding iron is that I can't hold it and the kid by myself very well (I have a disease that causes a problem with my muscles and not alot of strength at times). And I tried using a box, but it was choking all my kids. The paste makes it so much easier and safer to do by myself. I tried disbudding with an iron for 4 years, about 10-20 kids a year and I think I've maybe successfully done 2. So I am sold on the paste. My kids took it very well, but even if I get some cry babies, it will still be better then the iron for me.


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## peggy

Sounds like the paste works pretty good, I see pics of the horned goat but am not seeing any others....any I missing something???


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## shibby7

I am going to get pics of the two I disbudded with the paste - I have to wait until I get help to hold their heads still, all I managed to get by myself were about 50 blurry head/ear shots LOL.


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## peggy

I know what you mean. Look forward to the pics.


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## ThreeHavens

So do I =D


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## shibby7

I got some today! Don't mind the debris on them, they were playing in the hay .


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## ksalvagno

How long has it been since you did them? Certainly can't see any scurs.


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## ThreeHavens

That's great!


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## Zarafia

If I had bucklings who had been disbudded, but had small scurs, could the paste be used after the scurs were removed?


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## shibby7

I don't think it would work too good for that Zarafia, I think in that case - it may just add insult to injury, I would go with an iron for that.

I'm going to say its been about 7 weeks since I did them because they are just 8 weeks old. The white one has some hair to grow back in still, because I shaved a bigger spot on her (I did her first), but you can't even tell at all on the black one. Their heads are nice and smooth!


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## primal woman

This sure has been an active post under 'new posts', so thought I'd start reading. I foresee an upswing in sales of dehorning paste. Including from my own pocket book. 

With that said, we used to have registered Holsteins on a very large dairy farm some 35 years ago! Eeegads. Anyway, we always used dehorning paste on our calves. We knew nothing about dehorning irons at the time if they were around. Our process was quite simple and likely quite ignorant since we knew no better. We never shaved heads. Calves were always straight stalled once taken from their mother. (remember; dairy farm) At about 3ish days of age we'd simply take a stick and swipe that stuff on their horn buds. They cried some, but it was over in minutes. We never wiped it off with anything. It must have deactivated after time. DONE. no scurs, no burning of other calves next to them from rubbing, no burned holes in their own skin from rubbing on themselves. I guess ignorance is bliss. Worked great. Since I have no proper dehorn iron currently I believe I'll use this stuff on my next batch!

Also, I purchased goats with horns. I will NEVER buy horned goats again. I hate it. Horned goats are for those people who chuck them into the pasture and don't mess with them. Try to hold one for worming or what have you and I get slightly bumped in my leg by mistake with a horn and it is just not worth it. I'm still trying to get these horns off them. Vets charge an ungodly amount of money to do it! Unbelievable. We did it 'back on the farm' (back in the day) with a dehorning tool on older calves when we first started farming and simply cut them off and pulled the vein. DONE. Not so easy with these guys. Wished I had help to get these horns off.


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## xymenah

primal woman said:


> Horned goats are for those people who chuck them into the pasture and don't mess with them. Try to hold one for worming or what have you and I get slightly bumped in my leg by mistake with a horn and it is just not worth it.


I'm not arguing with you or anything just starting my preference but I personally hate working with hornless goats. There is nothing to hold on to or keep their head steady at all. Deworming is a terrible pain. With my horned goats I just stand over them, lock their heads between my thighs and tilt their heads back and done. Most of the goats I have worked with without horns give you no warning before they hit you, they act similar to sheep and run at you. I work with my goats multiple times daily. Train them to do tricks, lunge and my buck will be trained to pull a cart.


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## primal woman

I'm sure it is easier in ways, but my legs have had enough with those short sharp horns. One good thing about horns is if you want to have them under control, just take a hold of those puppies and they'll be easy to handle. But when they are just 3-4 inches long, they poke my legs and there is not enough to handle. I used to tie my pygmy by her horns. It works great. I have other little tricks too. But I'm done with horns now!


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## goatkid

I would never use dehorning paste. Not only could it get into the goat's eyes, the kid could rub another goat and damage it's hide. My goat mentor said never to use it. Disbudding is painful, but it's over in a few minutes and most goatlings go back to acting normal when I return them to the pen/ Those that do look like they might still be in pain are given a shot of Banamine.


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## Shellshocker66

goatkid said:


> I would never use dehorning paste. Not only could it get into the goat's eyes, the kid could rub another goat and damage it's hide. My goat mentor said never to use it. Disbudding is painful, but it's over in a few minutes and most goatlings go back to acting normal when I return them to the pen/ Those that do look like they might still be in pain are given a shot of Banamine.


Everyone has to do what they are comfortable with, but I think there are inherit risks to both methods.

Since I've done neither and just going by my internet research and the observations of my de horned goats and the issues I've had with them.

First I had one gal that had to be redone since her horn grew back.. Not pleasant to have to put them through it twice especially since she was older when the horn grew (iron)

Bad scurs getting knocked off (iron).

My one pasted boy is perfectly smooth.. He is not ever going to grow something back up there.. While another buckling I got around same age I can already tell I got to get out nippers and start trimming or his scur is going to go backwards and right into his head.. Once again more work as they get older that is not pleasant.

Then the risks of using an iron, slip burn the goat somewhere it was not suppose to be burned (such as eye or ear). Burn self while attempting to do goat, forget to turn off iron and burn down garage/barn/whatever.

Paste- accidental transfer, getting some product in eye, burning self with paste (although sounds like most folks posting on here say it's not much of an issue).

As stated no matter what your preference there is always going to be some risk involved and something you should not do if you don't fully understand all the steps that need to be followed through with both methods.

Myself I'm leaning towards burning the does and pasting the bucks.... I want to see for myself the reaction of both (I can always stop the paste with vinegar) and make a decision from there.


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## shibby7

goatkid - that's exactly why I never had the nerve to give it a try. It was beaten into me how horrible and dangerous of a product it is - by people who have never used it. If it was so horrible and dangerous, they wouldn't still be selling it after all these years or you would only be able to get it from a vet.

If your good at using the iron and "like" it, I don't see why you would want to change what your doing, but I'm sure glad I have an alternative to use now. Is it for everyone? Probably not, just like everything! But its good to have options.

Because of my physical restrictions, I can't have goats with horns anymore, I have been hurt badly too many times - including almost loosing an eye (no joke). And I have had a few goats get gored from other goats with horns and also have had two does abort from being slammed by the other goats with horns. Its a personal preference, but horns are not for me.


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## ThreeHavens

Shellshocker66 said:


> Then the risks of using an iron, slip burn the goat somewhere it was not suppose to be burned (such as eye or ear). Burn self while attempting to do goat, forget to turn off iron and burn down garage/barn/whatever.


I agree, there are pros and cons, and I think it depends on your capabilities and what you are comfortable with. I think I will try the paste, and see how the iron disbudding and paste disbudding compare -- including how the kid reacts. It's true the paste takes longer, but it just might be less stressful.

Both the Iron and the disbudding paste can injure kids -- same thing with banding vs. burdizzo vs. cutting. There are so many different ways to do things and different reasons for doing them. I take my hat off to people using the method they believe is best for their farm and their goat. (=


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## Crowbar032

Hmmmm, 4 of my does are due sometime the first two weeks of October. I was planning on buying a dehorning iron, but now I'm re-thinking. I may try the paste with the duct tape helmet the first time as it seems like it might be easier and less holding/handling a wiggling goat for one person.


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## Shellshocker66

I've tried several times to get a good picture of my little man Thor... Well totally forgot my website has his picture which shows his spots perfectly. You can kinda see a little nub and that is all there is.. Hasn't grown in the last 5 weeks I've owned him just more hair is growing over his bald spots.


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## shibby7

Thanks for sharing that photo Shelley. Mine don't quite look like that, is the white dried up paste that was left on?


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## Shellshocker66

shibby7 said:


> Thanks for sharing that photo Shelley. Mine don't quite look like that, is the white dried up paste that was left on?


No that is just skin. I think Robynn (Firelight Ranch) did it in his first week of life? That picture he is around 9.5 to 10 weeks old as we had picked him up like the week before. I'm lazy or I would go pull out his records to confirm date of procedure but I think I remember it's done just like the iron in the first few days.

The spots are still like that, bald skin. The hair is now starting around the edges to fill in.


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## ThreeHavens

It may be a scab. With disbudding the area is dead skin and will scab and fall off, revealing beautiful new skin underneath. Took our scabs a long time to fall off.


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## onehorse_2000

Any ideas on loose scurs? Would paste work for that after the scurs are bumped off? 

Sorry, new to all of this, but it was quickly beaten in that hot iron was the only way, but I have a doeling that I purchased that has grown 2 little scurs, one on each side. Both are loose, so sooner or later, they should be bumped off, correct? At that point, could I go back, shave, and use the paste? I had a gal out here to help me tattoo and she said, if the scur gets long enough, use a band to remove it permanently, but she didn't think this doeling's scurs would get big enough to do that with. But, when I asked the vet about re-burning her, he said "no", that I would need to bring her in and they would put her under to finish it, not really interested in that bill for 2 little scurs.


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## onehorse_2000

Another question about dehorning in general. Why doesn't burning kill the hair follicles that all debudded goats have 2 white spots on their head where their horns should be from the hair coming back in white? Or is this a lack of experience question?


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## shibby7

Hmmm, yea mine don't look like that. Mine were 5 days old when I did it, and the picture I posted is of them at 8 weeks. No signs of scurrs though, no bumps at all.


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## ThreeHavens

onehorse_2000 said:


> Any ideas on loose scurs? Would paste work for that after the scurs are bumped off?
> 
> Sorry, new to all of this, but it was quickly beaten in that hot iron was the only way, but I have a doeling that I purchased that has grown 2 little scurs, one on each side. Both are loose, so sooner or later, they should be bumped off, correct? At that point, could I go back, shave, and use the paste? I had a gal out here to help me tattoo and she said, if the scur gets long enough, use a band to remove it permanently, but she didn't think this doeling's scurs would get big enough to do that with. But, when I asked the vet about re-burning her, he said "no", that I would need to bring her in and they would put her under to finish it, not really interested in that bill for 2 little scurs.


The scurs are not life threatening -- putting her under will be. Goats are very hard to put under correctly, especially kids. Reburning would be an option. Personally I just trim the scurs if they curl and cause problems. I use their hoof trimmers to do that.


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## Crowbar032

Well, ol doc Naylor and I just paste de-horned two one week old doe goats. They were not happy with the duct tape helmet I put on them. They scratched and cried the whole 20 minutes (per instructions. After I took off the tape and put vinegar on the paste, they went and laid in the sun. Instead of using the wood stick as recommended, I put on a latex glove and used my finger. I had more control and didn't get too much on the second goat like I did the first. I (hopefully) attached an after picture. I have two more to do, but wanted to wait an hour just to observe the first two....just in case.


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## Crowbar032

I should also add that I only left the paste on for 20 min. The instructions said 20 to 30 minutes. After 20 min. There was a little blood, some seeping, and the skin on the button was a little cracked. I do not think 30 min is necessary, but time will tell.


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## ksalvagno

You can reburn. Not sure about the paste on older goats.


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## Crowbar032

ksalvagno said:


> You can reburn. Not sure about the paste on older goats.


This my first time de-horning, but the after looked good to me so I'm optimistic.


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## ksalvagno

Well, I tried the paste. Both my little bucks are done now. There are definitely little buds left after keeping the paste on for 30 min. I held them for the 30 minutes so don't know if the paste goes deeper if you put the duct tape on them.

The one buck was done a few days ago. So far no further horn growth. I'm hoping I did it right. But can just use the iron if this doesn't work.

I will say that it does go much quicker with the iron. I know if I walked away, I would get busy with other things (even staying right in the barn) and forget about the kids so I have to stay there and focus on that. I have had problems with scurs on boys from disbudding with the iron so we will see what happens with this.

I have 2 does to do and will probably do the paste on them as well. I wanted to give it a good shot. I can't say that I like it better since it takes up much more of my time and I'm not even sure if I did it properly so not to have continued horn growth or scurs. Plus it has not been enjoyable to hold screaming kids for 30 minutes. But like I said, if I did the duct tape helmet and walked away and did other things, I would forget and not be back in 30 minutes (just way too much going on right now).


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## MOgoatlady

ksalvagno said:


> Well, I tried the paste. Both my little bucks are done now. There are definitely little buds left after keeping the paste on for 30 min. I held them for the 30 minutes so don't know if the paste goes deeper if you put the duct tape on them.
> 
> The one buck was done a few days ago. So far no further horn growth. I'm hoping I did it right. But can just use the iron if this doesn't work.
> 
> I will say that it does go much quicker with the iron. I know if I walked away, I would get busy with other things (even staying right in the barn) and forget about the kids so I have to stay there and focus on that. I have had problems with scurs on boys from disbudding with the iron so we will see what happens with this.
> 
> I have 2 does to do and will probably do the paste on them as well. I wanted to give it a good shot. I can't say that I like it better since it takes up much more of my time and I'm not even sure if I did it properly so not to have continued horn growth or scurs. Plus it has not been enjoyable to hold screaming kids for 30 minutes. But like I said, if I did the duct tape helmet and walked away and did other things, I would forget and not be back in 30 minutes (just way too much going on right now).


I'm bad about the getting sidetracked and forgetting as well...I keep a digital timer in my pocket, or set the timer on my stove when I have to remember...you might try it too


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## ThreeHavens

Karen, did your bucklings ever get scurs?


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## crocee

I may have to try this on the new crop of babies that are soon to be born. I was really against it to begin with because I had all these horrific ideas about chemical burns. I've seen the babies disbudded with the burners and the dangers of going too deep. I've read the entire thread and believe its safe enough for me to try. I will try to remember to take weekly pictures as well. Just goes to show that even an old goat mama can accept new tricks.


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## ksalvagno

Woodhavenfarm said:


> Karen, did your bucklings ever get scurs?


Yes. I did 4 kids and had to burn 3 of them. I'm sure some of this was that it was my first time using the paste. But the one buck's horns grew as if I had never used the paste on them. So I ended up getting out my disbudder and using the iron on them. The one good thing from this was that it gave me the confidence to just go ahead and use the iron.

Obviously the paste works great for some people but I found that I just don't have the time for it. The iron is just so much faster and doesn't take so much of my time.


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## goatgirl132

keren said:


> well I've used it a hundred times and never had any problems with it ... calves and kids
> 
> Put it on, duct tape over it so mum doesnt lick it off.
> 
> easy and quick, and my babies have never screamed ...


Wouldent that pull their hair out?


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## keren

not really. most of the time we just left the duct tape helmets on them and sent them back out to the paddock and eventually they would fall off


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## xymenah

If you use the no name brand cheap duct tape it shouldn't rip off to much hair. I've used it to make a boot for a hoof injury.


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## mjgh06

Okay I came over her cuz I still have some questions after reading through all this. I may have just missed the answers though.

Ksalvagno - I know you said they had scurs after trying the paste. What paste did you use?

Crowbar032, Firelight27, SandQ, 
Did any of your goats ever get scurs, and what paste did you use?

Shibby7 and Keren - did you both use Naylor's?

Has anyone use Dr. Larson's? It comes in a tube so I was wondering if it was better for putting on. It's also a potassium hydroxide instead of the sodium hydroxide in Naylors. So was wondering what people thought of it.


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## shibby7

I use Dr. Naylors. I leave it on for 30 min. and then take it off. No scurs here so far.
An update on the two that I posted about in this thread:
This is the one I kept, she is 7 months old now and I sold the other one, but at three months, she still had no scurs either.


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## goatgirl132

keren said:


> not really. most of the time we just left the duct tape helmets on them and sent them back out to the paddock and eventually they would fall off


So you wouldent have to worry about wiping the paste off or anything? (Not shure now the paste works just looking into it)


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## mjgh06

Shibby That's a beautiful goat you have!

Okay so I'm sorry if I am aksing things already posted. I want to try to do th epaste on upcoming babies this week. So I am kinda working my confidence up here. Let's see if I got this all down

Dr Naylors
Trim hair area around nubs what about an inch out or so
Apply vaseline ring out so med won't drip
Cover nub area and like 1/8 inch around it with the Dr Naylors paste - cover good but not thick
Either hold goat for 30 min or apply duck tape helmet
If held, at 30 min apply vinegar (?any Kind) then flush with water keeping it out of eyes
If taped, I can just let them go and take off tape in a couple days or it will come off

I hope I got this right,because I really want to try it and I have been so afraid to do so previously. You know when you've been told something for so long it just takes a whole lot of convincing to change the mindframe. Logic tells me it will be just fine, fears always bring doubt. But I AM going to do this.


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## shibby7

Thank you! She's a Boer/Myotonic.
If you take the paste off, you have to scrape it (with a popsicle stick), then its water first, then vinegar (normal white vinegar)  . The rest looks good to me. 
I will probably be giving the duct tape helmets a try this year, because I'll have a lot to do at once.


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## ksalvagno

mjgh06 said:


> Ksalvagno - I know you said they had scurs after trying the paste. What paste did you use?


I used Dr Naylors.


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## KymberLeAnn

I used Dr Naylors on my buckling And doeling.
So far the doeling has no scurs, but buckling has them growing like we never even burned them :/
Is it safe to burn a horn that's already about a half inch long?
They were pretty brittle and flakey so we nipped off the end of one of them, and it bled so we decide to hold off on nipping the other one till we can get more info on it.


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## ksalvagno

KymberLeAnn said:


> Is it safe to burn a horn that's already about a half inch long? They were pretty brittle and flakey so we nipped off the end of one of them, and it bled so we decide to hold off on nipping the other one till we can get more info on it.


As long as the disbudder will fit over it, you can burn it.


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## StaceyRosado

correct you can burn it as long as the iron will fit over the horn thats growing. you can nip them and then burn even as its bleeding this will cauterize it and kill the horn base


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## Dayna

I'm pretty scared of the paste, but I'd like to see how others do and if it ends up being safe and not hurting the kids I might give it a shot.


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## KymberLeAnn

Ok, thank you so much!


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## Crowbar032

mjgh06 said:


> Crowbar032, Firelight27, SandQ,
> Did any of your goats ever get scurs, and what paste did you use?


I used Dr. Naylors paste. It came in a yellow cardboard box and the bottle reminded me of a pill bottle. As far as scurs, I guess it depends on definition. One doe (Oreo) has scurs about an inch long. The other three (Red, Chunky, and Tip) you can still feel something there but they don't stick out past the hair. You can't see the scur due to the hair, you have to feel it. It was my first time de-horning, so it could be an id.10.t error that resulted in scurs. As long as they don't get hung in the fence, I'm happy with the end result. I have two older does that the vet did at 3 months and they still grow small scurs too. The four I de-horned are right at three months old and it appears that the vet done does and these will grow scurs at about the same rate.

I took a short video of Tip when I put the paste on and covered with Duct tape if anyone is interested in her reaction. All four reacted similarily. There was crying, head shaking, and scratching. Not sure what the rules are on posting that type of video and not sure I'm smart enough to do it anyway, but will figure it out if anyone is interested in seeing it.


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## artlady

Nigerian Dwarf goats: We are brand new to disbudding-after reading all this post I decided to try Naylor's because several of our iron-disbudded goats have scurs anyway and bucks esp seem to get them. I used a popsicle stick and vaseline-I found it easier without the vaseline. My husband held the buckling, while I shaved with a small human facial hair trimmer and then pasted. 1st buck started bawling within a couple of minutes, shaking head and trying to scratch. Husband picked him up again while I put clear plastic package tape-all I had on hand. It was not messy or runny. Did 2 more bucks ( 1&2 were one week old, #3 was 2 days since I could already feel a bud.). I wiped off buck 1 at 20 min. with a paper towel and then water and vinegar-Nigerians are too tiny to do this way at least for me. I will try paper towels just dipped in vinegar next time, and probably not water at all. Anyway it was traumatic enough hearing them bawl the whole time the paste was on. I would probably not be able to use an iron. I might try to use even less paste next time and I could not see a difference on the skin/bud after-did anyone else see a difference after cleaning off the paste? The minute I cleaned them off they were calm.


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## Goats Rock

The didbudding paste is an acid that burns the horn, root and skin. I prefer the disbudding hot iron. My friend has raised Nigerians for years (at least 15) and only burns her kid's horn buds. 
She has only had a couple of scurs on buckling in all those years. A very hot iron, a kid box and leave on for at least 13-15 seconds. So much safer and less painful for the kid. 
(In my opinion)


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## shibby7

artlady said:


> did anyone else see a difference after cleaning off the paste?


There should be a noticible difference - I have posted a picture in this thread: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f217/need-response-naylors-140204/index4.html

20 IMO isn't long enough, I do a full 30 mintues. I have had zero scurs this way, but pretty much every kid I did with an iron (for 4 years) had scurs, I'm just not good at the using the iron. So I won't go back to the iron ever. I feel like I've said this a million times now, but everyone has to do what works for them. The paste is my choice.


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## goatgirl132

shibby7 said:


> There should be a noticible difference - I have posted a picture in this thread: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f217/need-response-naylors-140204/index4.html
> 
> 20 IMO isn't long enough, I do a full 30 mintues. I have had zero scurs this way, but pretty much every kid I did with an iron (for 4 years) had scurs, I'm just not good at the using the iron. So I won't go back to the iron ever. I feel like I've said this a million times now, but everyone has to do what works for them. The paste is my choice.


Since you use itvso much i wanna ask. 
Do You use a ducktape helmit or sperate for 30 mins?

show goat/lamb equipment
www.Facebook.com/wickedshowchains


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## shibby7

It took me a try or two to get the duct tape right, and now that's what I use. I still separate them though! I tried putting back in with the dam, but I had one get the tape off - so now, they wait in my bathtub for the 30mins with their helmets on, and I can close the door and walk away. I have yet to have a bad screamer though - nothing like when we used the iron!


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## oxhilldairy

shibby7 said:


> I use Dr. Naylors. I leave it on for 30 min. and then take it off. No scurs here so far.
> An update on the two that I posted about in this thread:
> This is the one I kept, she is 7 months old now and I sold the other one, but at three months, she still had no scurs either.


What a fluffy cute goat!


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## firelight27

shibby7 said:


> It took me a try or two to get the duct tape right, and now that's what I use. I still separate them though! I tried putting back in with the dam, but I had one get the tape off - so now, they wait in my bathtub for the 30mins with their helmets on, and I can close the door and walk away. I have yet to have a bad screamer though - nothing like when we used the iron!


Oh, I am SO doing this this year (putting in the bathtub!!)


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## shibby7

It works great! And if they make a mess it cleans up easy lol.


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## artlady

*update*

Here is my update on Dr. N's Paste: must be used sooner than a week-as soon as possible after birth if you can feel buds-esp on bucks. We did 3 at just 2-3 days old. It worked well. However 2 bucks at one week old came to us with their mom. We tried paste anyway but one boy has little buds slowly growing. At 4 weeks we are taking him to a friend to use the iron. We hope this is going to be effective and not too late for him. The earliest paste app on a doe has left just smooth surface-slightly older kids have rough, hard feeling horn bases but no growth.

My verdict: 
Paste is economical-it should last for years.
2 people-one to hold and one to do the paste and tape. 
Have tape strips ready.
They hate it for the 30 min. 
Just paint it on with a Q-tip. 
The less you can use the less the kid cries.
Duct tape rips their fur off-adding more distress, but works to protect. 
Must be done for at least the 30 minutes and under one week old.
Vaseline is unnecessary since it does not run and makes for less accuracy. White vinegar on paper towels neutralizes the alkali-just keep dabbing to clean it off. 
Probably an iron is less distressing due to time needed-however it may hurt much more than paste.


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## capra

So, as of yet, no one has answered the question...........if you disbudded (or attempted to disbud) with an iron and the horns grew anyway.............is it safe to use the paste.
I have a 6 wk old Saanen buckling that I disbudded with an iron at 2 days. Had the copper ring really well. But the horns are growing. And even at six weeks he is a walking testosterone factory. Those horns NEED to come off. He is very very nice and needs to be in the show ring also. But that is secondary to the safety issue. His bloodlines are such that we are saving him for buck use, so a future dinner guest is also not an option.
So, what to do?????
Christina


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## ThreeHavens

From what I have read, paste has to be used earlier than the iron, and is not a good backup for a failed disbudding. The iron can fix a bad paste job, but not visa vera.


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## goatgirl132

so my whether has horns growing but has a wide horn base. so what do I do? he's a show whether


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## happybleats

personally I would not use the paste. Too many horror stories with it..I Would re burn , as long as the horn growth can fit in the iron..


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## canthavejust1

The paste wouldn't work after a horn is established. It's a very precise process even when done as a few day old kid. I've learned from experience! And i can now use the paste with success


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## shibby7

The paste does not work if the horn has started to grow. If you have anymore then a TINY bud started, don't bother using it. Most of my kids get done as day olds, some doelings can go a week, you have to feel daily to know when the right time is.
Do not use it over a disbudding burn either - OUCH.


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## wvaleries

I did my buckling at 5 days when I first felt his nubs coming up. I left the paste on for 25 minutes. It's been a week and his horns are still growing. Can I repaste, even though his horns are about 1/2" high? If I do, how?


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## janeen128

Well, I'm thinking 2-3 days, as I waited until day 5 and nope... So next year it is going on when they reach 2 days....


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## ksalvagno

wvaleries said:


> I did my buckling at 5 days when I first felt his nubs coming up. I left the paste on for 25 minutes. It's been a week and his horns are still growing. Can I repaste, even though his horns are about 1/2" high? If I do, how?


No, you will need to burn them.


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## xymenah

I tried the paste last year on two days old. It didn't work one bit. I shaved their heads and left it on for 35 minuets and they grew like I never did anything. Ended up getting them burned and now they have scurs to boot.


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## Kathrin

I was so happy to find this thread about using disbudding paste on goats because so many places this issue receives a knee-jerk reaction that it's the most horrible thing in the world and my response is always that any method needs to be done carefully and all methods have possible dangers involved. Thanks to all the folks on this thread that shared their experiences and outcomes. The only other person I was able to find who would talk calmly about this subject was someone who worked on a cattle research station. She'd only done a few goats and over a thousand calves. She said that Dr. Larson's was the one they chose after trying about 6 different kinds. She said it was far the best and least painful for the babies. I'm wondering if anyone has used this type? Also wondering if someone could get specific about how thick a layer they put on because from what she said, that was the most important part of it. Oh, and one interesting note....the Dr. Larson's says to rough up the skin just a bit...I think the cap has a little textured thing on it for this purpose. Wonder how much impact that has on making it successful. Also, since the last post on this thread was in 2014, is there anyone around who is using this method and maybe has some more tips to share? my does are due in April and I do the disbudding for 2 other farms as well. I would really love to find an alternative that feels better than the iron I've used on more than 80 kids. I'm considered good at it but it's my least favorite job. I'd love to find other options. I'm following the clove oil disbudding research too.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Following! I'm getting Nigerians and really don't want to use the burning method with them.


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## Greybird

A chemical burn hurts just as much as a heat burn (based on my own personal experience, although I admit that I'm not a goat.) 
I feel that a few seconds of high heat would be kinder than many days of caustic chemical burns, especially since the chemicals might end up getting transferred to their eyes when they shake their ears all around like wonky propellers. 
Yes, burning hurts like the dickens for a few seconds, but then it's over and there's no danger that it will spread.


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## janeen128

I had good success with the paste last year.... Still have the doe, and no scurs at all....


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## MoonShadow

Lots of good information, following.


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## Kathrin

Greybird said:


> A chemical burn hurts just as much as a heat burn (based on my own personal experience, although I admit that I'm not a goat.)
> I feel that a few seconds of high heat would be kinder than many days of caustic chemical burns, especially since the chemicals might end up getting transferred to their eyes when they shake their ears all around like wonky propellers.
> Yes, burning hurts like the dickens for a few seconds, but then it's over and there's no danger that it will spread.


Nancy, if you read through the whole thread you'll find that a couple of folks here have gotten lye on their skin, one of them on purpose, so that she'd know what it felt like. She left it on for the 30 minutes required and said it was no big deal. I think like anything there's a need to be careful. I've done a lot of hot iron disbudding and notice, especially on white-headed kids that there is a lot of secondary burn just from the outside of the very hot iron being in proximity to the area adjacent to the horn bud area. It's agreed that one has to either hold the kids or put tape over the disbudding paste during the 30 minutes it's on. If I compare the options and decide what I'd want for myself it's not the hot iron but everyone is different. Many people tell horror stories of using the paste but the stories are often third hand. Like everything there's are right ways and wrong ways to do it. I think the reason I'm looking for alternatives to the hot iron method is the very real fear of brain damage from overheating and swelling. There are some people on this thread who posted careful instructions and have been doing it this way for quite a while with complete success. There are a couple of folks who tried it and didn't have good success the first time. We all do what we think is best and I'm just glad to have found this thread where people are talking calmly about it rather than dismissing it.


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## Greybird

Kathrin said:


> Nancy, if you read through the whole thread you'll find that a couple of folks here have gotten lye on their skin, one of them on purpose, so that she'd know what it felt like. She left it on for the 30 minutes required and said it was no big deal. I think like anything there's a need to be careful. I've done a lot of hot iron disbudding and notice, especially on white-headed kids that there is a lot of secondary burn just from the outside of the very hot iron being in proximity to the area adjacent to the horn bud area. It's agreed that one has to either hold the kids or put tape over the disbudding paste during the 30 minutes it's on. If I compare the options and decide what I'd want for myself it's not the hot iron but everyone is different. Many people tell horror stories of using the paste but the stories are often third hand. Like everything there's are right ways and wrong ways to do it. I think the reason I'm looking for alternatives to the hot iron method is the very real fear of brain damage from overheating and swelling. There are some people on this thread who posted careful instructions and have been doing it this way for quite a while with complete success. There are a couple of folks who tried it and didn't have good success the first time. We all do what we think is best and I'm just glad to have found this thread where people are talking calmly about it rather than dismissing it.


That's interesting, and I've always heard so many horror stories about lye that I figured it would be dreadful.
My own bad chemical experience was with 80 volume hydrogen peroxide, not lye. so I can't really make an educated comparison. That peroxide felt like it was setting me on fire, though, and it went right into my skin before I could rinse it off. It was more than a week before the dead skin got back to normal. 
My assorted mishaps with soldering irons and deep fat fryers seemed less painful, but then I never had to stay in contact with that heat for more than a split second.
I'm not trying to be argumentative at all. I think everybody wants to do the best they can for their goats and it's quite likely that individual situations will vary.


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## primal woman

I WOULD use the paste more often if it were not so time consuming. It works great. I've seen much smoother polls as a result compared to the iron. The iron creates divots and stays with the adults. The paste creates a smooth poll into adulthood. I used to use the paste on calves all the time, but it was successful because they were in straight stalls. But baby goats are typically loose and then there is the problem of them spreading the paste. Hence I use the iron due to time constraints when doing 16 babies. 
I have done my own experiment to see how hot the brain gets by using the iron. It does NOT get hot, not even up a little bit. I'll be asked how I did that. May sound gross, but it was important to me: it was on a still warm dead animal with a thermometer touching the inside of the skull cap. And then I used the iron on the poll.

I'll go back to using paste when I can figure out how to make it less than 30 minutes for each baby because the tape flattens out the paste and then it spreads as it wiggles the tape around.

Karen 
MilkNKids power packed Nigerians, Oregon
Kids sired by son of SGCH and GCH parents. Dam of sire is 3 times TOP TEN
http://moremail4myhorse.wix.com/milknkids#!kidding--sales/c19ve 
my signature is not updated


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## janeen128

I've never put tape on. What I do is called a "disbudding party" and have friends and family come and hold baby goats for 30 minutes. Depending on how many people, and goats its roughly an hour.... I always hold them through it... Maybe that's why I've had success.


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## Kathrin

janeen128 said:


> I had good success with the paste last year.... Still have the doe, and no scurs at all....


Janeen, I really want to try this on some of mine this year. Can you please give me as many details as you can about how you did it and what you think it important for success? Which brand of paste did you use? How thick a layer? What breed of goat? age when done? how long did you leave it on? Did you cover it with tape or hold the kid or ?. how did the kid react? did you wipe if off with a wet rag and with a vinegar dampened rag or what other method? What did the area look like right afterwards and what stages did it go through as it healed? Sorry for all the questions but when when the well-being of a living being is involved I try to do as best a job as is possible and I want to know what is normal, what might be worrisome, etc. Thanks in advance if you are willing to answer all these pesky questions and if you don't have time or focus, I totally understand. Blessings, Kathrin


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## janeen128

Kathrin said:


> Janeen, I really want to try this on some of mine this year. Can you please give me as many details as you can about how you did it and what you think it important for success? Which brand of paste did you use? How thick a layer? What breed of goat? age when done? how long did you leave it on? Did you cover it with tape or hold the kid or ?. how did the kid react? did you wipe if off with a wet rag and with a vinegar dampened rag or what other method? What did the area look like right afterwards and what stages did it go through as it healed? Sorry for all the questions but when when the well-being of a living being is involved I try to do as best a job as is possible and I want to know what is normal, what might be worrisome, etc. Thanks in advance if you are willing to answer all these pesky questions and if you don't have time or focus, I totally understand. Blessings, Kathrin


I use Dr. Naylors... I shave the top of their heads where the horn buds are, so skin is exposed. Then I apply a thin layer using Q tips, making sure the horn bud is covered. I hold the kid for 25-30 minutes... 25 min for girls, 30 for boys. Some kids react with screaming, others do not... So I think, not certain the crying is "where's my mom, and it gets worse when mom answers back." I then use a wash cloth around the eyes and spray the ACV directly on the horn buds, take a paper towel to wipe them off good, and rinse by pouring water around the site... Then take the wash cloth away from eyes when it's clear... You are done.... It says you can do kids up to 2 weeks of age, but my experience no older than a week/7 days..., probably not younger then 2 days either...
I think I answered all the questions, if not feel free to ask, and good luck


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## OrianthiRanch

IMO the paste is not humane. I can't believe it is still on shelves. I would rather be burned for 10-12 seconds than have a constant burning on my scalp. But that's just my opinion...


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## flatmountain

In the vet clinic they have a lidocaine gel that can be applied topically. Have always wondered if the would help for the disbudding pain.


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## dalegregg

StaceyRosado said:


> but in that same token crocee disbudding with an iron is like putting a hot iron on your skin -- OUCH
> 
> I think it can be used effectively but since I have never used it I cant say that I would or wouldnt use it.
> 
> Since Keren has had success with it maybe when she returns and has time she can post more about its use, effectiveness and more of a "how to"


NOT an acid, but rather a strong base ... but can still burn. Will be "neutralized" with vinegar, NOT with baking soda!


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## dalegregg

I took our first buckling to the vet for disbudding with hot iron ... he put the little guy right out, so no wrestling or fussing. However, he developed scurs.


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## dalegregg

Goats Rock said:


> The didbudding paste is an acid that burns the horn, root and skin. I prefer the disbudding hot iron. My friend has raised Nigerians for years (at least 15) and only burns her kid's horn buds.
> She has only had a couple of scurs on buckling in all those years. A very hot iron, a kid box and leave on for at least 13-15 seconds. So much safer and less painful for the kid.
> (In my opinion)


It's NOT an acid! It is a strong base, that can also cause burns.


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## dalegregg

Kathrin said:


> Nancy, if you read through the whole thread you'll find that a couple of folks here have gotten lye on their skin, one of them on purpose, so that she'd know what it felt like. She left it on for the 30 minutes required and said it was no big deal. I think like anything there's a need to be careful. I've done a lot of hot iron disbudding and notice, especially on white-headed kids that there is a lot of secondary burn just from the outside of the very hot iron being in proximity to the area adjacent to the horn bud area. It's agreed that one has to either hold the kids or put tape over the disbudding paste during the 30 minutes it's on. If I compare the options and decide what I'd want for myself it's not the hot iron but everyone is different. Many people tell horror stories of using the paste but the stories are often third hand. Like everything there's are right ways and wrong ways to do it. I think the reason I'm looking for alternatives to the hot iron method is the very real fear of brain damage from overheating and swelling. There are some people on this thread who posted careful instructions and have been doing it this way for quite a while with complete success. There are a couple of folks who tried it and didn't have good success the first time. We all do what we think is best and I'm just glad to have found this thread where people are talking calmly about it rather than dismissing it.


Our vet, who disbudded our first buckling with hot iron, said that's he's very nervous about "civilians" (my word, not his) disbudding with heat because of the risk of brain damage ... he has seen the consequences, and has had to put kids down as a result. Certainly, is POSSIBLE to safely disbud with hot iron ... but still, risks.


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## rebelINny

I've disbudded literally hundreds of kids in my ten years of raising goats and I have never caused a kid brain damage or had one get tetanus or any other terrible thing from it. You just have to know what you are doing. And I'm careful. I'd rather have tiny scurs than a dead kid, but I don't often have scurs on kids either.


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## Goats Rock

I agree with rebelINny. Vets don't like it when we can take better care of our goats medically, than they can.


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## Ctflynn5

We have 1 week old nigerian bucklings. I've just today felt their buds. I'm considering using the paste. I don't mind taking the time to cuddle with 2 babies for an hour or so 
I'm just wondering if you still need to give them the tetanus shot first as is recommended with the iron?


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## janeen128

Ctflynn5 said:


> We have 1 week old nigerian bucklings. I've just today felt their buds. I'm considering using the paste. I don't mind taking the time to cuddle with 2 babies for an hour or so
> I'm just wondering if you still need to give them the tetanus shot first as is recommended with the iron?


Yes, you do...


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## Kupla

I think I'm going to try the paste on any horned kids my mini LaMancha doe has. I've tried having different people dis-bud and the scurs are so big they might as well have never been burned in the first place. I have issues with my hands that make holding the iron steady very difficult so I can't burn them myself.


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## Kathrin

Tried to post this before but I don't think it posted. I've been doing the paste the past 2 years and here's what I can pass on after talking to a number of folks who do it. A very helpful woman who worked at a cattle research station and used paste on 1000 calves a year said they'd tried all brands of paste and that Dr. Larson's causes the least distress/pain response so I've always used that. We do it by day 3 unless we can't feel the tiny bumps of the horn buds yet as in the case of smaller kids. We shave as close as we can with beard trimmer because any stubble left makes it harder to get the paste to stick to the head where you want it....it just comes back up with the applicator. We found that regular Q-tips degrade too fast into drooping bits of cotton that were useless but that other brands of make-up applicator type Q-tip type things work better. It still takes 1-3 per horn bud because they do degrade and then there are bits hanging and you can't be accurate then. I follow the advice to do a quarter-sized circle with nickel thickness of layer on bucklings and nickel-sized circle on doelings and it's thickness can be a bit less. 30 min boys, 20-25 for girls. You still need a very good holder because it does hurt and they start to squirm as soon as the first bit is on them. After the paste is on, we set a timer and we either snuggle them or carry around with head head against shoulder or chest as if they are colicky babies. Most will spend around half or more of the time quiet if you soothe or distract them. We hold their ears back because they will wave their head and try to rub against anything they can reach (like us). If they shake their head and paste gets on their ear it can get in their eye on the next shake. Vet-wrap holding their ears back could be helpful. We have bowls of warm water and white vinegar ready and to remove the paste we use warm water, then white vinegar diluted a bit with warm water, and then warm water to wash off the vinegar smell. We use a folded up washcloth above their eyes to make sure nothing drips down into their eyes while we're washing it off. Double check to make sure you've got all the bits of paste off. The vinegar neutralizes what is left if you use enough of it but make sure it's all off. This year we had the vet out for something else so I decided to have her do 4 with the disbudding iron after putting them out and giving them a local anesthesia too. I had hoped it'd be even easier then holding a baby for 30 minutes while doing the paste but it was harder. The multiple injections required for the local anesthesia, the smell of burning hair and flesh, etc reminded me of why this is my least favorite job. I used to do all mine by iron and I was good at it......just wanted something less traumatic for them. The paste is not perfect but it seems to be less an ordeal for them. Hope this helps someone as much as I was helped by the folks generous with their time when I was asking questions.


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## Damfino

Sanibel was our first attempt at using disbudding paste and she has scurs. We ended up having to burn them with a hot iron last week because they were going to be nasty. 









We learned from our mistakes with the first kid and here we have Coral who has no scurs whatsoever! This is a cleaner job than anything I've ever seen done with a hot iron. 









For us, the trick with the paste was to make sure the kid had banamine a good half hour or so beforehand to reduce struggling and crying. We also needed to make sure the paste was smeared in a wide enough area. We got the buds on the first kid but not enough of the surrounding skin. I should also have done the first kid a little sooner. Although she was younger, Sanibel had the larger, faster-growing horns. I wanted to do the kids together so I waited until I could feel Coral's buds. By that time, Sanibel's horns were already on the verge of breaking through.


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## Kathrin

Thanks for sharing your experience!!! I never thought of Banamine to make it go easier. How much of a difference did you see in how they behaved? I agree.....when I do a big enough circle I have the best and cleanest disbudding ever but otherwise I get some scurs. What thickness of paste do you use? I go for about the thickness of a quarter/nickel What size circle are you using approximately? And what breed of goat? what age were yours? Any other hints to share? I want to refine my technique to no scurs ever. ; > -Kathrin
www.sovereignhillfarm.com Kinder goats


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## Damfino

Banamine made a huge difference. Sanibel was screaming without the banamine so it was as bad as using a hot iron. I wiped it off immediately and we tried again a few days later with banamine. 

I don't remember exactly what size circle or thickness. These were our first two paste disbuddings and the details are a little hazy now that we're two months out. These goats are Alpine/Nubian crosses, both are doelings, and we did them at about one week. I did Sanibel at four days old because her horn buds were present at birth, but that was the first attempt where I had to wipe it off right away. Coral was a late bloomer and her horn buds weren't present until she was around a week old. That's when I did her and re-did Sanibel, this time with banamine for both girls. It wasn't too bad with the banamine. They were squirmy and cried a little, but it was as much from being separated from the other goats as anything. Sanibel was the more dramatic of the two but she calmed down a lot when I brought her brother in to sit with her.

To keep the paste from getting smeared anywhere it shouldn't, I slapped a piece of duct tape over their heads during the procedure.


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## Kathrin

mjgh06 said:


> Okay I came over her cuz I still have some questions after reading through all this. I may have just missed the answers though.
> 
> Ksalvagno - I know you said they had scurs after trying the paste. What paste did you use?
> 
> Crowbar032, Firelight27, SandQ,
> Did any of your goats ever get scurs, and what paste did you use?
> 
> Shibby7 and Keren - did you both use Naylor's?
> 
> Has anyone use Dr. Larson's? It comes in a tube so I was wondering if it was better for putting on. It's also a potassium hydroxide instead of the sodium hydroxide in Naylors. So was wondering what people thought of it.


Hi there.....I've used Dr. Larson's only and while most of the kids fuss we just do it with help. Ideal is 3 people. 2 to hold and 1 to apply and take off the paste. I'm the applier and remover. We wrap the first goat in a towel like a burrito, helper holds head still just like for burning. I shave and then use a q-tip style makeup applicator to apply. I use a small glass shot glass to squeeze some of the Dr. Larson's paste into and work from that. The q-tips start to dissolve so it takes a couple per kid usually. I wear latex gloves sometimes. I put a timer on and then start the next kid. After 20-25 minutes for loss and 25-30 minutes for bucks I first use warm water on paper towel to remove most of it. Then I use diluted white vinegar on a wash cloth and blot it carefully to neutralize any paste residue. Then I do a very wet with warm water cloth to get the vinegar smell off so their mother's aren't concerned about how they smell. I have good luck with this WHEN I make sure I make the circle of applied paste large enough. I do it at about age 3-5 days. Most of the kids complain so we treat them like we'd treat a human colicky baby. We put them on our shoulder and walk them around, sing to them, etc. For breeds with long ears it's good to use vet wrap or a hair band to keep the ears back and against the neck because if they shake their head and get paste on the ear and then shake again it can get into the eye. Like anything......if you aren't careful there's always a possibility of problems. Hope this helps.


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## Kathrin

Damfino said:


> Banamine made a huge difference. Sanibel was screaming without the banamine so it was as bad as using a hot iron. I wiped it off immediately and we tried again a few days later with banamine.
> 
> I don't remember exactly what size circle or thickness. These were our first two paste disbuddings and the details are a little hazy now that we're two months out. These goats are Alpine/Nubian crosses, both are doelings, and we did them at about one week. I did Sanibel at four days old because her horn buds were present at birth, but that was the first attempt where I had to wipe it off right away. Coral was a late bloomer and her horn buds weren't present until she was around a week old. That's when I did her and re-did Sanibel, this time with banamine for both girls. It wasn't too bad with the banamine. They were squirmy and cried a little, but it was as much from being separated from the other goats as anything. Sanibel was the more dramatic of the two but she calmed down a lot when I brought her brother in to sit with her.
> 
> To keep the paste from getting smeared anywhere it shouldn't, I slapped a piece of duct tape over their heads during the procedure.


I'm so jealous that you manage to make the duct tape work. To me the Dr. Larson's paste is so goopy, like night cream, that I'm worried anything will smoosh it around and get it where it shouldn't be and thin the thickness where I need it. When you next do it can you take duct tape photos so I can see how you're doing it? I can't remember if you used Dr. Naylor's or Dr. Larson's. which was it? Thanks......great thread!!! Hopefully this thread will counteract all the opinions floating around about how this is the most horrible thing in the world. Of course it's important to keep it out of the eyes, off udders, etc. That's why it's good to be careful. I really appreciate your idea of the Banamine. Thanks for that.


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## lilaalil

After carefully reading all the posts on this thread, I decided to give the dehorning paste a try. I have never learned to disbud goats (I just know I would not be able to handle it and would mess it up) and have always hired someone in the past, but we recently moved to a new area and have no goat-people contacts here. When it became clear I wouldn't be able to find anyone to disbud our brand-new buckling, I ordered Dr Naylor's from Amazon, and it arrived when he was 3 days old. He had horn-buds at birth, so I did the paste that same evening, at 3 days old. I followed all the directions given here and on the website; shaved around the hornbuds, wrapped him up in a towel and applied the paste, carried him around for 30 minutes while he hollered and struggled.

I used a gloved finger to apply the paste, but a Q-tip would have been better. I ended up smearing it quite a bit farther onto his skin around the base of his hornbuds than I probably needed to, because the gloves just weren't very precise.

At one point he suddenly threw his head against my chin and got some paste on my skin. I quickly wiped it off with the towel, and then wiped again with a vinegar-soaked paper towel that I had sitting ready for just such a situation. I acted fast and didn't feel or see any damage to my skin.

When the 30 minutes were up, I wiped it off with vinegar-soaked paper towels, and as soon as the vinegar touched the paste, all was right in his world again, and it was like it had never happened. I then used water and a rag to thoroughly clean the area, which probably wasn't necessary, but I did it anyway.

Well, that boy is now over 3 weeks old, and his horn buds have not grown since the day we treated them. So I am calling this a success. I have had so many goats with nasty scurs from botched disbudding with an iron. I don't foresee scurs on him, and I am thinking we are pretty close to in the clear by now.

Just this evening I did a little doeling who was born about 9 days ago. Her horn buds were still small, so I don't think it was too late. I planned to do it 2 days ago, but life got in the way. I used Q-tips this time, and got the paste on there much more precisely. She struggled and cried a lot less than the buckling, so I am thinking having less on her skin helped make it not as painful.

Of course, 5-10 minutes into walking around with her, I started second-guessing myself wondering if I had gone far enough onto her skin to do the job. It can be hard to tell where exactly the horn buds end and the skin begins. But I will hope for the best, and, if she grows scurs, I do now have a contact in the area that can "fix" them for me with an iron.

This doeling has long, Nubian-style ears, so I had to hold onto those the whole time, so she wouldn't shake them and flip them up onto her head and get the paste on them. I had tied a scarf around her head to hold them down, but this slid down onto her neck in the first 3 minutes and was totally useless. It was really tiring to carry her in one arm and hold her ears with the other hand. If I sat down, she could get her feet under her on my lap, which made for more powerful wiggling, so I mostly stood and walked with her. 

If I weren't such a wimp about giving shots I would totally give them a pain-killer before doing this, but even as it is, I don't think it's really that awful for them. I love that this gives me the independence to disbud them on my own. I will continue to use this process. I won't look forward to it, but I also think the more I do it the simpler and more second-nature it would become. This second time was definitely easier than the first.

One thing I learned was you have a short amount of time, maybe a minute or less, from the time you start applying the paste, to the time they start feeling the burn and struggling. So you need to act quickly and efficiently to get the paste applied before they start wiggling, or it gets much more difficult. I think they feel it the most on the skin around the horn buds, so maybe do the tops of both horn buds first, and then circle around the bases, to give yourself the most time before they start wiggling. 

I can see there are a lot of ways for this process to go wrong, and I wouldn't recommend it to everyone. But if you are good at following directions carefully, and feel confident, I think this can work really well for some people. Get all your supplied ready and assembled before you start, because once you put the paste on the baby, you really can't do anything else, but hold them and keep them from rubbing it on stuff. You also need a helper for applying the paste and for cleaning it off; one person to hold the baby and the other to do the applying and cleaning off, because you only have 2 hands.

I also wouldn't recommend it if you have a ton of babies to disbud, as it is time-consuming to hold them for the whole time, unless you do the tape hats, which I did not feel confident I could do correctly.

Hope this helps someone, and thanks to everyone that took the time to post about their experiences and methods! I had always read that this stuff was terrible and dangerous, and I am so glad I gave it a try.


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