# Sick goat drooling?



## Blazer

I have a sick 9 month old Pygmy doe. She is lethargic and has a slimy discharge from her mouth, her tail is down, and she seems fluffy like her hair is standing up. Her appetite is fine but she seems to be drinking more than normal, she was fine yesterday.


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## liz

Please get a temp on her... 100* - 103* F would be normal... her fluffed up appearance means she's chilled and not feeling well, the drooling however could indicate either a toxin in her gut, something stuck in her throat or a sign of encephalopathy... if she's staggering, her eyes aren't focusing or she's tilting her head, she could have polio.


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## Blazer

She is eating very well, could she still have something stuck in her throat? Matter of fact I am with her now and she is looking for more food. She is walking fine and not tilting her head but she is shivering at times. I have never taken a goats temp. how do you do it?


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## Goat_in_Himmel

Get a people thermometer, digital preferably, and get a rectal temperature. Hang on to her, because she won't be thrilled at the invasion--but neither does it hurt.


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## Blazer

Her temp. is 105.7 what should I do?


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## megg16

Do you have any banamine? That will bring down her fever.


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## mayia97420

That is high- she has a fever - someone with more experience than I will let you know what to do. Hang in there.


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## Blazer

No,..I don't have any Banamine?


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## megg16

La200? Any kind of antibiotic? That will help bring down the fever. I hope some one with more experience will answer soon.


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## Blazer

No I only have "people" medicine but for sure I will be putting together a medicine kit for the goats.


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## megg16

So people medicines work but I don't know which ones. I keep a goat kit since I lost my first one about a year ago.


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## megg16

Offer your goat some warm water and get it in a stall with a heat lamp or a sweater to warm her up.


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## ksalvagno

Do a search for homemade electrolytes. Make that and offer it. Do you have a vet? I would probably try to get her to the vet tomorrow since you have no meds to use.


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## liz

I agree with ksalvagno... she needs to be seen by a vet ASAP, that is a high fever that needs meds you don't have to be maintained. Keep her drinking and yes, feed her since she's wanting to eat preferably some good grassy hay and not too much grain. Offer her some warmed molasses water or even warmed gatorade to keep her hydrated.


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## Goat_in_Himmel

I was fortunate that my goat's temperature came down by itself, the other week, but I was advised that in the absence of meds, I could put cold compresses under her armpits, to get her temperature down. Keep an eye on her temperature. It might be some strange "one day flu", like my girl got--fingers crossed!


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## Blazer

I hope it is not anything serious! She is laying with her mother in the stall with fresh water and hay near by. She was just fine last night when I went to feed,....I don't understand how she got sick so fast?


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## glndg

Some people on here recommend ice packs under the goat's armpits to bring down a fever. If you have baby aspirin, you could give her that.

Fiasco Farm's web site says you can use one 325 mg. regular aspirin for every ten pounds. Baby aspirin tastes good, and if she is eating, she might eat it on her own.


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## SalteyLove

Bags of frozen veggies behind the ears will bring it down as well!

Yes they can fall ill very quickly. With that temp she has some type of infection but hard to guess what. Pneumonia is possible.


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## lottsagoats1

I use the apple flavored livestock aspirin when I need to use aspirin. Mine love the taste and will lick it up with their grain.


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## happybleats

I agree...ice pack...frozen veggies..cold compress behind ears and armpit..get her temp down......a baby aspirin will help..get antibiotics as soon as you can...best to get tylan 200.. 1 cc per 25# sub q twice daily...if you cant get Rx...if you can get to a vet...ask for nuflor.....
Give b complex and keep her hydrated...
Best wishes


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## NyGoatMom

How is she?


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## Blazer

Vet. came yesterday and gave IV antibiotics and electrolyte, Banamine, vitamin shot and a slow acting antibiotic in the rump, can't remember what else? He suspects something neurological but not Polio, not sure how he ruled that out?

Well anyway she is not going to make it. We brought her in the house last night and she curled up in my lap around 7:30 and went to sleep. I moved her beside me on the couch around 10:00 and stayed up most of the night watching her sleep. Long night to say the least. The morning she is unresponsive, eyes glazed over and unable to hold her head up. Seems she may be in a coma? My wife and I are sitting with her now waiting for her to pass,....stupid goat


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## burtfarms

so sorry


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## toth boer goats

If the goat is still with us, I would contact the vet to tell them the condition and see if anything more can be done.
Although, if it is neurological, Polio or Listeria is a big possibility, they do go blind and cannot get up, drooling is associated with listeria.
I would start thiamine or fortified vit B complex shots every 4 to 6 hours. If it is listeria PenG needs to also be given, all in high doses. 
Notify your vet.

When was the last time she ate?

Any gut sounds?

How is her temp now?


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## happybleats

Im very sorry....its hard to watch them go.... I agree with Pam!! keep up until she gives up..


best wishes


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## Blazer

I gave the last B vitamin shot this morning at 8:00, she has been more than 24 hours without food or water. She is barely hanging on,..weak labored breaths eyes rolled back in head.


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## J-TRanch

Have you done a fecal count on her?


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## happybleats

If she is willing to swallow...try drenching fluids..you can give a bit of honey on her tongue to boost her engery...

Im sorry...I know this is hard!!


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## NyGoatMom

So sorry...I say follow Pam and Cathy's advice...sounds indeed like listeria/polio.....is your vet a goat vet?


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## toth boer goats

Praying she is still alive, how are things? 

If she is still with us, she needs food, if she can indeed swallow.
Without food, she is starving to death and this makes her rumen shut down.
Get alfalfa pellets, grind them up in a blender, just a very small amount, have a big syringe and feed it very very slowly at the back corner of her mouth, with many breaks in between. Maybe say a 1/4 cup Alfalfa. You can use electrolytes in her mix of water/Alfalfa pellets, Make it a slurry. Do this freshly every 2 hours and so, it is easy to go though the syringe.


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## Blazer

Butterscotch is still hanging on,...but just barely. We have been giving goat ration slurry every few hours and some milk, I have adjusted to the fact she may not make it but I cant live with her starving to death!!!

An hour ago I gave her;
1cc Dexamethason
3cc Vitamin B (Vet. said it has other vitamins I hope Thiamin!)
3cc Nuflor Gold

She is able to swallow and seems a little more alert today? Still unable to hold her head up or stand on her own but I have been getting her up every so often should I?

I need more information on how to feed? I have been giving a couple of tablespoons of goat ratio slurry every 30 minutes, is this enough?

How do we know when to let go? This is family member and we want to do all we can to save her but not at the expense of torturing her. She is very weak,...but will move her ears and eyes when I talk to her.


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## Goat_in_Himmel

I haven't been down this path yet, but everything I've read on this forum says, make sure the goat gets up from time to time, with the understanding that this is even if you have to hold her up. Also they say, who've been through this, that if she is willing to go on, there's still hope--and if she's watching and listening and swallowing, it sounds like she hasn't given up hope yet.

I'm sorry, but I have no information on feeding.


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## Blazer

She standing and walking on her own although very shaky! She is still drooling and it looks like some of the goat ration slurry is coming up a little. She has pooped twice and it is very dry and pointy on both ends. I think my biggest battle now is keeping food/water in her? I heard you can give gatorade? Where I gave the Nuflor Gold shot under the skin in the neck is a knot,...did I do something wrong? I hate that I am having to learn how to be a vet. on this poor little goat.


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## J-TRanch

The knot where you gave the shot is completely normal and will go away on its on, don't mess with it 


Owner/operator
J-T Ranch Dairy Goats
NW KS


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## J-TRanch

It sounds like you're doing everything you can! Keep your head up!


Owner/operator
J-T Ranch Dairy Goats
NW KS


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## Blazer

Thank you I was concerned I gave the shot wrong. She has enough problems without me creating more.


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## toth boer goats

Blazer said:


> Butterscotch is still hanging on,...but just barely. We have been giving goat ration slurry every few hours and some milk, I have adjusted to the fact she may not make it but I cant live with her starving to death!!!
> 
> An hour ago I gave her;
> 1cc Dexamethason
> 3cc Vitamin B (Vet. said it has other vitamins I hope Thiamin!)
> 3cc Nuflor Gold
> 
> She is able to swallow and seems a little more alert today? Still unable to hold her head up or stand on her own but I have been getting her up every so often should I?
> 
> I need more information on how to feed? I have been giving a couple of tablespoons of goat ratio slurry every 30 minutes, is this enough?
> 
> How do we know when to let go? This is family member and we want to do all we can to save her but not at the expense of torturing her. She is very weak,...but will move her ears and eyes when I talk to her.


Usually pen G is given in high doses for Listeria/polio. Not sure about nuflor gold. I am however concerned giving that and dex together, because gold has banamine in it.

Fortified vit B complex has thiamine in it yes.
I would up the b vitamins maybe to 6cc's.
How much does she weigh and how old is she?
How often are you giving all you are giving to her? Not feed wise?

Getting her up is really good to do, massage her left side for rumen health, any gut sounds and movement?

How are her inner lower eyelid coloring?

A slurry of that amount is fine, but may give slightly a bit more, as time goes by, I would feed her every 2 hours. Just don't over stuff her.

Have free choice hay in front of her, offer some by hand as well.
If it is Alfalfa give the leaves not the stems. Place some in her mouth, if she eats it on her own, keep giving her some or even the Alfalfa pellets. 
Not a ton but what you think is a good amount. But make sure you drench her with water so it goes down well and doesn't stick to her throat, as she cannot drink on her own.

Pull outward her skin lightly and gently, to see if she is dehydrated. If it snaps back slowly or not at all, she needs more fluids.

As to knowing when to give up, this is up to you, I know it is hard, but if you feel she is suffering, I would put her down. If she is improving you are heading in the right direction.

I am sorry you are dealing with this and pray she gets better each day.


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## toth boer goats

Blazer said:


> She standing and walking on her own although very shaky! She is still drooling and it looks like some of the goat ration slurry is coming up a little. She has pooped twice and it is very dry and pointy on both ends. I think my biggest battle now is keeping food/water in her? I heard you can give gatorade? Where I gave the Nuflor Gold shot under the skin in the neck is a knot,...did I do something wrong? I hate that I am having to learn how to be a vet. on this poor little goat.


If her poo is dry, she may need more liquid, test her skin.
Yes, keep the food and water coming. Read what I read above as well.
If she can eat on her own encourage her too.

I usually give shots in the armpit area. Lumps after injections do happen, sometimes they have to have that lump, for us to help them.

Good work, it sounds like she is going the right direction. :hug:


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## happybleats

I agree with Pam....to help deliver more food at once, try a turkey baster..but go slow..feed as often as you can, keep hay in front of her as well..she needs the strength...sounds like she is improving going from not being able to keep her head up to walking..

how much thiamine does your B complex have in it...
I really dont like Nuflor gold either...but I dont think it has enough Banamine in it to help her need...If your vet can give you plain nuflor that would be better or just grab Pen g and go that route with the Dex...

as Pam said..you are there..you kow her best and you will know when her fight is done or whether to keep going...((hugs))


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## Blazer

She is 9 month old Pygmy that weighs about 50lbs.


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## Naunnie

For Toth or Cathy..... What about adding some probiotics to the slurry? I remember another member added plain yogurt to the alfalfa pellet slurry.......Would it help?

I saw the Vet gave her some electrolytes.....is she still getting any?
Here is a homemade version per Cathy...
A half gallon of hot water
2-6 Tablespoons of Unsulphured Blackstrap Molasses
1-2 Tablespoons of Either Sea Salt, Epsom Salt, Baking Soda or Table Salt.
1 cup of Apple Cider Vinegar


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## happybleats

adding probioitcs to the slury wont hurt at all : )


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## Blazer

My wife is on the way to Tractor Supply to get what ever we need to keep this goat alive. I would really be grateful if someone would give me a shopping list.


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## happybleats

Fortified B complex ( or reg. B complex with 100 MG Thiamine) 
If they only carry the one with 25MG thiamine..we canstill use it but she will need alarger dose,,

Penicillin
Probioitcs

those are the things she needs for Listerisis and polio...along with Dex or banamine for inflammation


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## Blazer

I am sorry do you mind be more specific? My wife and I do not know one medicine from the other.


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## Blazer

I also need needles/syringes


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## happybleats

Ok..no problem...here is a link for the penicillin...it can be any brand...this is just one..
http://www.jefferspet.com/products/pro-pen-g-injection-500-ml

here is the fortified B complex...What you want is a healthy dose of thiamine ( B1) which this offers...
http://www.jefferspet.com/products/fortified-vitamin-b-complex-100-ml,

here is Plain B complex...some stores only carry this ...again..any brand will work..
http://www.jefferspet.com/products/fortified-vitamin-b-complex-100-ml

probioitcs come in powder form or gel/paste..either is fine'
http://www.jefferspet.com/products/goats-prefer-probiotic-power-1lb
http://www.jefferspet.com/products/goats-prefer-probiotic-plus-paste-80-cc


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## happybleats

Yes ..needles can be 20 G for the b complex and you will need 18 G for the Penicillin. both can be 1/2-3/4 inch long
6 cc syringes should work for both


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## Naunnie

Nutri-drench for Goats. Goats Prefer Probiotic Powder or Plus Paste.

ETA: Let the Mrs. know, some may be in the Cow/Pig section or in TSC refrigerated box. Otherewords, it might NOT say "goats" on the label.


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## toth boer goats

Very good advice. 

Prayers sent.


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## Naunnie

The Banamine and Dexamethasone require a Vet's prescription. Unfortunately, she will not find those at TSC . Your Vet may be able to call them to your local drug store. Some will...some won't and it depends on the pharmacy. It's worth a try though.


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## Blazer

Okay looks like we have everything but the Dex or Banamine like was posted it is ex only. I need some help with dosing.


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## happybleats

Good point Naunnie...most meds are not made for goats...


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## Naunnie

Best to get an accurate weight on her. Got a bathroom scale? You stand on it...get your weight, then hold her and get the combined weight. Her weight is the difference.


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## happybleats

tell me how much Thiamine is in our B complex?

penicillin is 1 cc per 20# Sub Q ( just under the skin)....THIS IS IMPORTANT, not trying to scare you...butyou need to know..Pen can kill if given in the vien......be sure to draw back on the plunger BEFORE injecting the pen...if you see blood come up..re adjust and try again...NO BLOOD MEANS GOOD TO GO...Lift lots of skin helps!!


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## Blazer

I want to thank you guys,...I know everyone is busy but Butterscotch really deserves your help! She has laid down and is resting after walking around the kitchen for a while. I want to start treating her as soon as I should. After seeing what I gave her at 4:00 what should I do know?


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## Blazer

I will get an accurate weight before we continue. Thank you guys!


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## sweetgoats

You are doing a great job. Keep trying to get her to drink as much as possible. I would see tomorrow if the vet will do a IV for her, she has to be really low on fluids.

Great advise and I am praying for you all and Butterscotch.


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## happybleats

if your fortfied B complex ( or B complex) is 100 MG of thiamine... 4-5 cc per 100# sub Q ( under skin)
check your bottle to see how much thiamine it has in it .....let us know

if she has Polio you should see response pretty quick..since its gone so long it might take a few days..but you should see improvment...If its listeriosis..it can take much much longer...

best wishes


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## Naunnie

Is she dehydrated? Pam(Toth) suggested how to check. "Pull outward her skin lightly and gently, to see if she is dehydrated. If it snaps back slowly or not at all, she needs more fluids." Has she tinkled or poopied today?

No worries....we are here for you, the Mrs. and Butterscotch. We are all praying she conquers this. :hug:


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

Your vet may give you fluids u can warm up to body temp than inject sub q or run via iv


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## Blazer

Okay guys I have an accurate weight,.. 40.3lbs. The Pennicillin I have is Durvet injectable 300,000 units/ml

The vitamin B is Durvet high level B complex 100 mg Thiamine Hydrochoride


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## Naunnie

And while your medicating her...it wouldn't hurt to go ahead and get her temperature again. I like to take it at every 3-4 hours and keep a record. 

This is what was given at 4:00pm today right?
1cc Dexamethason
3cc Vitamin B (Vet. said it has other vitamins I hope Thiamin!)
3cc Nuflor Gold


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## Blazer

Yes that is what was given.


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## NyGoatMom

I am so happy she is still hanging on! I was shocked to see that when I checked the thread...some animals have fight in them, she must be one of them...I hope she pulls through to a complete recovery :hug:


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## Naunnie

Hang on....I am not a Vet but I'm looking up dosages. It's only been a little over 5 hours since the other meds. I'm sure others are too. Is it possible for your Vet to call ya back at this hour? If it were me, I think I would go ahead and give her 1.6 cc of the B-complex. It won't hurt and she will urinate out what she doesn't need.

I got this dosage from here http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/goatmedications.

*Fortified Vitamin B Complex *- Over-the-counter product. This product can be used interchangeably with Thiamine when Thiamine alone is needed since it has 100 mg/mL thiamine in it. Products without "fortified" in the label have inadequate levels of thiamine present. If such products must be used, then the dosage must be increased to achieve a thiamine level of 100 mg/mL. Example: If the product has only 25 mg/mL, then the dosage given must be four times the "fortified" product's amount. B vitamins are water soluble; a healthy rumen produces B vitamins daily. B vitamins may be given to any sick goat. Use thiamine dosage.

*Thiamine (Vitamin B1)* - Vet prescription. Used in conjunction with large dosages of antibiotics to treat listeriosis and goat polio, diseases which demand veterinary assistance or death is highly likely. Moldy feed and hay cause these illnesses. Dosage is 4 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight up to three times per day IM, or SQ. Keeps best in warm climates when refrigerated.


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## happybleats

Pen is 1 cc per 20# so 2 cc every 6 hours...
B complex is 4-5 cc per 100# ..I would go 2 cc ...also every six hours...


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## happybleats

you will need to see if your vet will give you banamine for brain swelling...

banamine is 1 cc per 100#...I would give 1/2 cc for him...Sub Q...

best wishes!!! you are doing great...keep her hydrated and fed!!


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## Blazer

My son is helping her walk around the living room. I will give B and Penn. G shot before bed. She has had probiotic and Gatorade with some goat ration blended in.


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## NyGoatMom

Keep up the good work...we are rooting for you guys :hug:


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## Blazer

Butterscotch is resting after a rough day of needles and force feeding,...I hope she is better in the morning.


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## Naunnie

Ah what a sweet baby. She looks so comfortable. I hope she is better in the morning too. Positive thoughts and prayers sent y'alls way. 

I recommend checking in with the Vet in the morning, just so you can inform him on her status. He might suggest administering some fluids to her. Let us know.....


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## happybleats

I agree with the vet call for fluids and Banamine..you would be amazed how fast dehydration can bring a little one down and Banamine will help reduce that brain swelling

she sure is cute...her name suites her well...!!

Best wishes!!


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## Blazer

I am going to see if the vet. will give us a script for Banamine. How much do we need and what dose and how often?


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## happybleats

Banamine is 1 cc per 100# once daily for 3 days to start...some goats need it longer..I would get enough for 5-8 days to be on the safe side...if you have a good size herd..it would be well worth gettting the bottle...


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## Blazer

Thank you,...she has urinated twice this morning but no bowel movements. She is getting electrolytes and Gatorade orally and seems to be doing well with swallowing, is this enough to keep her hydrated? She is still very weak and sick. No interest in food and stand in the corner with her head down. Her tail is no longer down and she is more alert but I no she is not out of the woods. I worry about brain damage and quality of life?


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## happybleats

hows her hydration? check this web sight to score her....
http://goat-link.com/content/view/95/80/#.VGTJsVfF92A

offer leaves and vines..her favorites...maybe she will venture to eat them...

there can be some perminate damage but usually unless severe quality of life is good...sunds like she is responding to treatment which is good...fingers crossed


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## ksalvagno

See if the vet can put a semi permanent IV syringe in her. Then you can slowly drip fluids into her. With the port already in, all you have to do is attach the line from the bag. The vet can show you how fast to let it drip.


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## toth boer goats

It is wise to get Banamine or Dex, the longer brain swelling is there, the goat will not get better and may get worse. One of these drugs is needed for her.
Depending on severity, she may or may not be totally normal, only time will tell, we have to get her though this.

Have you tested her skin elasticity yet?

I agree with a vet seeing her.

If she is getting feed from the stuff you are mixing for her, she should have some poo or a little poo, maybe try an enema, to see if it helps her. 
How are her gut sounds?

If she can get around your yard, allow her to nibble on grasses, leaves if she will. That is if she is strong enough to do so. Or bring her non toxic leaves ect to see if she has interest. Still no grain.

With Polio/ listeria, they have a hard time regulating their body temperature so make sure she stays OK there as well.

She is a sweet doe , so precious.


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## Blazer

She is much to sick still to eat or drink, no interest at all in food of any kind. Today we are a little disappointed we are not seeing any more improvement, she is still drooling heavily and very weak. The Vet. Is giving us 1 dose of .5cc Banamine, my wife said he was reluctant to give us more as she has had several doses in the last few days. He said we will take it day by day.


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## happybleats

at least he is giving it...Prayers sent


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## Naunnie

Ah! I know y'all are exhausted but try not to get discouraged. It will take some time for her to recover.... and she is still fighting. Keep doing what y'all are doing....meds, fluids, slurry and warmth. She knows y'all love her. Tell her that she has a whole extended family...here, that loves her too. We are all praying and sending positive thoughts y'alls way. Hang in there and please keep us updated. :grouphug:


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## toth boer goats

How sweet Naunnie. 
Well said.


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## Blazer

Just an update,...my mom is taking care of Butterscotch and says she is the same,..maybe a little more alert. Still no interest in food, I really wished she would at least attempt to eat. I would feel much better. I will give her another Pen. and B vitamin shot as well as Banamine. I have never gave Banamine should I give it in the muscle? Any reason to not give her any of these shots?


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## happybleats

I give Banamine SUB Q...



> Any reason to not give her any of these shots?


All are necessary....

best wishes


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## Blazer

I am sorry, I don't know what sub Q means.


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## Naunnie

Sub Q is Subcutaneous (under the skin as opposed to in the muscle). This link may help: http://www.extension.org/pages/63184/goat-injections#.VGUTnMkqbIV

Glad Mom can help y'all out. Is she giving her the slurry? Is it room temperature or slightly warmed? She may prefer it warmed over cold.


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## Blazer

Yea mom is feeding slurry and giving Gatorade and electrolytes with probiotics. Knowing my mom it is very warm in her house!


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## happybleats

Im so sorry...yes..sub q means just under the skin : )


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## Naunnie

:clap: Yay! Mom! Is Butterscotch your only goat? I ask because while she is healing, I keep asking myself how she got sick. The Vet ruled out Polio right? Did he think it's Listeriosis or some kind of toxin? How is her temperature? If she is still running a fever, she probably won't have much of an appetite, even though she has to have the fluids/slurry. Don't stop the meds....even when she starts improving. She needs to be back at 100% for over 24 hours first. Keep us posted. Y'all are doing great!

Just a reminder about the Penicillin injections. Make sure to pull back on the plunger a bit before administering. You do not want to see any blood. If you do, pull out and re-stick her and check again.


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## Blazer

A little more improvement this morning. Her tail is all the way up and she is holding her head a little higher. She is responding more to us calling out to her. 

We have to find some way of getting food in her. She has not had a bowel movement in 24 hours! The electrolytes and probiotics are no problem but spoon feeding the slurry is very difficult. I am afraid we are beating the illness and still losing the battle. She responds to food in a bowl but can not eat, it is like her mouth doesn't work right? Is there anything else we can give to get her strength back that is easier to feed than the goat ration slurry?


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## happybleats

I agree..with out food all the meds in the world wont keep her alive....Use a turkey baster....you can get more into her...when I had a buck with polio..I rolled hay into little balls and stuffed it in is mouth...he then was able to chew...and ate like a champ....took about 45 minutes several times a day,,,you can also tube the slurry to her..not fun but effective...

its great she is responding to treatment...keep up the great work...do what ever you nhave to to get food into here..here is a link to show how to tube..if you need to ..

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/stomachtubing.html

best wishes


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## Blazer

Mom got about 1/2 cup of slurry in her this morning. We are going to get a turkey Baster and try that. We are hearing her belly, rumble. Does that mean she is hungry?


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## happybleats

rumbling is most likely rumen noise...that good..means it trying to work...have you heard gasses and burps and see her chew a cud


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## Blazer

No,..she will not chew at all, it is like her mouth doesn't work? I can see her stomach/sides moving.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

What about either a really thick oatmeal with raisins or rolling oats with mollasses and honey into balls? You can even add probios to the mix...I've made these no-bake "goat cookies" before to get meds into my animals and it works...rolled oats are pretty easy to chew and swallow


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## happybleats

ok..the rumen will roll and grumble and she will produce gas and burps..sounds like its functioning : ) ..keep up with what you are doing...a turkey baster will certainly help...Glad your mom is there to support her while you are not home!! Kudos for mom..


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

Also...you can soak alfalfa CUBES in hot water and they come apart into a wet hay "mash"...this can be fed in little balls very easily. Just make sure you soak them in hot water until there are no dry chunks for her to choke on. pellets get too soupy to use, but the cubes work great. We use them as a hydration aid in the winter.


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## toth boer goats

Kinda reluctant using a turkey baster as you cannot control the amount that goes into her mouth, which may get into the lungs.
I use a big syringe 30 to 60cc and very slowly at the back corner of her mouth feed the goat.

Gut sounds are good. She is getting enough to keep her rumen working.

Try not to change her diet too drastically to fast.

Glad she is improving. Too bad she is unable to chew.


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## SalteyLove

I only have two things to add to this wealth of advice you have been given!

1. When Butterscotch is resting, try not to let her lay on her side. You want to keep her laying upright on her sternum so that her rumen can continue functioning. Propping her up with pillow/haybales/blankets/etc.

2. I highly suggest you do an enema if she has not pooped in the next 12 hours or so. Her system got shut down and may need help re-starting. Enemas are WAY easier than they sound, I promise. They really aren't that bad. Basically you just mix warm water and a cooking oil or warm water and a bit of dish soap and slowly syringe it into her anus. Then massage her tummy and let her walk around a bit, then repeat, repeat repeat until you get some results!


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## happybleats

> Kinda reluctant using a turkey baster as you cannot control the amount that goes into her mouth


Yes..with the turkey baster you do need to go slow..allow her time to swallow...


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## Blazer

More improvements!!

She seems to want to be feed the slurry,..holding her head up and coming to you for it,..same for the electrolytes. Still does not chew but try's to nibble with her lips. I am concerned about her not being able to chew/eat,..anything I can do to help with this? 

My wife and I are heading to Tractor Supply looking for some food alternatives. I hope to find dehydrated alfalfa cubes or something like that,..any other suggestions?

I can't thank you guys enough! Butterscotch is still here without a doubt because you took the time to post,..I am carefully optimistic Butterscotch will make it. Today is the first time I could say that.


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## happybleats

wonderful news!!! every step inthe right direction is reason to celebrate!!!

chewing will come...she just needs more time...keep up with what you doing!! its working!!


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## NyGoatMom

Yay! Hoping she continues to improve...keep up the good work!


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

Okay...out on a limb here...but have you tried giving tetanus antitoxin...cheap at tsc. See what the vet thinks...in vaccinated animals and when caught early antibiotics and banamine can help resolve tetanus...but the issue with her jaw/chewing has me wondering. You have seen her through this process so google tetanus info and think if there has been any rigid/spasmic muscles, light/sound sensitivity etc. Goats rub and scratch on everything...tetanus is common and even if it is an issue here it sounds like you are on the mend...but if theres a chance a dose of cheap antitoxin could help her...it. might be worth it. Again im not a vet...but sometimes my inclinations and suspicions are right...lol


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## Blazer

Butterscotch is drinking water on her own this morning. She is not very effective at it but is getting some,...another milestone in her recovery!

Today's goal is a bowl movement. I purchased some pressed alfalfa hay cubes (for rabbits/guinea pigs) and have been grinding in with her goat ration slurry to help with digestion. 

So far this morning she seems very tired, I am not sure how to balance her resting and standing. She has been through a great deal and I am sure she needs her rest but her digestive system works better with her standing/walking correct?

She is trying to poop!! She has dropped a few pellets but is having a little trouble. Her stomach is contracting and she is crying a little. I may have give her an enema.


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## happybleats

good news on the water!!!! 

I would go a head and give her an enema....help her out ....use oil and warm water....fill her up gently until a little pushes back out then massage her tummy...keep her walking..you are correct..her rumen works better when active...also pooping....let her rest an hour or so at a time....go with your gut...you have done great so far!!


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## Blazer

She finally pooped, seemed to be a good amount,..maybe a cup. It is pointy on both ends and dry, but I was happy to see it none the less! She was hungry as soon as the last pellets hit the floor,..walking over to my wife with her head high begging for a spoon full of slurry. Her appetite gets better each day. Next step eating on her own. 

Thanks again guys!!!!!


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## happybleats

wonderful news....so excited for her and you!!!!


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## toth boer goats

You are doing a great job with her, keep it up. Congrats on her going forward.


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## NyGoatMom

Blazer said:


> She finally pooped, seemed to be a good amount,..maybe a cup. It is pointy on both ends and dry, but I was happy to see it none the less! She was hungry as soon as the last pellets hit the floor,..walking over to my wife with her head high begging for a spoon full of slurry. Her appetite gets better each day. Next step eating on her own.
> 
> Thanks again guys!!!!!


:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## Blazer

We have had a set back. She now seems to be getting worse again! After I gave the Penn. and B shot last night she started looking very fluffy again and acting like she didn't feel good. This morning she is still very fluffy/swollen looking in her face and acts like she feels terrible. Her face looks swollen and she is making a clicking noise in her mouth. I gave her about 3 cups of water last night by syringe, she is overly thirsty. What should I do?


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

Sounds like she is gringingher teeth. I wonder if she ingested something toxic...or was bitten by something? I would give tje tetanus antitoxin jik...then i would give benadryl liquid or pills...and some milk of magnesia. She sounds dehydrated...id keep putting electrolytes in her a little ever 15 mins or so or you could even get lactated ringers..warm to body temp...and give subq or iv fluids if she has rouble drinking. Check her temp too...sometimes the handfeeding and watering...which is needed..backfires whenwe get a littlebdown tje wrong pipe and end up pneumonia like...she could be allergic to the pen too...pen allergies show up the second dose or later....i might switch antiviotics in this case...but ask your vet and give benadryl


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## Blazer

She pooped again,..2 round clumps about an 1 1/2 inch each. She had trouble passing them, arching her back and contracting. She is crazy for water drinking just about as much as we will give from a syringe. She has had about 4 measuring cups of water so far this morning, should we give as much as she wants? Her face is extremely puffy/swollen and she wants to lay down more today than the last couple of days.


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## happybleats

yes...give her all the water she wants....face swollen could be bottle jaw. The stress of the illness can open the door to heavy worm load...how does her inner lower eye lids look? you want to see deep pink to red...

is she still grinding her teeth...try to post a current pic as well...let us see whats going on...hang in there!!!


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## Blazer

She is not grinding her teeth, it more if a throat/swallowing noise. I don't think her jaws work well enough to grind her teeth.














I am going to check her temp.


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## happybleats

grinding would be a back and forth motion...some will also do a yawn of sorts when in pain....(Oops just read the next part of your message...so it might be her way to express discomfort)

i dont see her swollen?? how do her inner eyes lids look?


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## Blazer

Her temp. is 102.6















I don't know if she is actually swollen or just her hair is standing up on her face, she looks very different than normal.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

She does not look swollen


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## Blazer

blazer said:


> her temp. Is 102.6
> 
> View attachment 81989
> View attachment 81990
> 
> 
> i don't know if she is actually swollen or just her hair is standing up on her face, she looks very different than normal.


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## happybleats

Hold her face in your hands..you should be able to feel swelling. Its its chillly goats will.puff up thier hair...its haow the keep.warm...temp.is good!


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## Blazer

I think I used the wrong term, she is not swollen but puffy. Her hair is standing up more so on her face. She still is unable to chew or move her jaws, in the last 24 hours she has started moving her tongue and lips.


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## glndg

She doesn't look swollen to me either, but how does she feel to you when you touch her? I have had several dogs over the years that had allergic reactions to various things and their muzzles did swell and felt firm, not soft as usual. It was easier to feel the difference than to see it. Benadryl works for that.

Do you have epinephrine on hand just in case she has a severe reaction next time?


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## happybleats

This can be a normal thing..if she is a bit chilly she will puff out...:greengrin:
The noise you hear maybe her beginning to have that new movement....now that her tongue and lips can move... 

it was suggested earlier about a tetanus antitoxin shot...this might not be a bad idea and certainly wont hurt...its fairly inexpensive being under $5 here...its a small 4 ml bottle..she would get the whole thing sub Q. Although I dont think she has tetanus since she most likley would not have improved with your current treatment...and once down as she was, death is usally with in 36 hours or so...it wont hurt to give it just in case and it just might help


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## Blazer

I have felt her jaws/face and do not feel any thing unusual. 

I fear I am keeping her alive with meds and force feeding but not curing the problem,...I am not 100% sure what she has!

Feeling really down about Butterscotch's progress.


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## happybleats

Listerisosis recovery is along road...she was down quite a while before treatment..so her progress is short of a miracle...I know it can be disheartning...but she has gone from dieing in your lap to wanting to eat and drink and holding her head up...shes a fighter...and yes, there is a chance in the end that recovery just wont move past where she is and quality of life needs to be considered...but for now..she is progressing...and you are doing an amazing job!!


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## glndg

I can't help you with what to do next, others (like Cathy for one!) can though. BUT I think you are doing an amazing job! Butterscotch was at death's door and she is doing so much better now. Some things take time -- hang in there.

While I was thinking and typing, Cathy said what I was thinking and so much better. Butterscotch really has come a long way. The people on this group really do an awesome job with help. Many goats, even with good veterinary care, would not have made it without the insights of people on this forum and the extra efforts of owners like you. There are no guarantees, but Butterscotch has a fighting chance.


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## happybleats

I was re reading this thread to be sure We arent missing anything and read this....



> I gave the last B vitamin shot this morning at 8:00, she has been more than 24 hours without food or water. She is barely hanging on,..weak labored breaths eyes rolled back in head.


I wanted you to see how far she has actually come...it can be hard to remember when you have the day to day fight!..you are doing a good job!!!


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## toth boer goats

I agree.

Also, the noise you hear in the throat, maybe she is trying to regurgitate her cud?


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## Blazer

Let me give a time line of symptoms and treatment, I need to see it myself as well as helping you guys help us!

11/9: First symptoms noticed in afternoon, drooling thick slimy discharge and droopy apperance. Alert and responded to food and attention. Temp. 105.6

11/10: Vet. arrived early afternoon, temp. 106.00, condition much worse, unable to stand, droopy eyelids and lifeless look in eyes, would attempt to eat but only able to move lips. Vet. gave IV antibiotics, fluids, IM slow acting antibiotics, Banamine, Vitamin B w/ Thiamin

11/11: Much worse, planned for her passing, weak breaths and unable to stand or move much for that matter. Stayed curled up with her neck against her side for 24 hours. No treatment given.

11/12: Mom finds her still alive and makes her get up, able to stand with help but lifeless other wise. Operation save Butterscotch kicks off! Vet. called and I pick up 1cc Dex, 3cc Vitamin B, 3cc Nuflor Gold, shots given around 2:30 pm. Wife and son pick up electrolytes, Probiotics, Penn. and Fortified Vitamin B, needles and syringes. That evening she is forced feed goat slurry, electrolytes, Probiotics.(first food/water in at least 24 hours) Condition some improved, able to stand with help but not walk, can not control head.

11/13: Start Penn. G and Vitamin B injections, 2cc each every 6 hours, worked out to be more like every 8 hours. More improvement, peed early morning, trying to get up on own but unable, can walk slowly on her own. Early afternoon mom calls says she is standing with head against wall, advised she may be in pain Vet. called in 1/2cc Banamine , shot given around 3:00pm. Steady improvement in walking and more alert to us as we feed/interacted with her that evening.

11/14: Continue Penn/Vitamin B injections, 2cc at 8 hour intervals, more improvement, walking better, still unable to get up/lay down unassisted, coming to mom for electrolytes/food, still drunk/disoriented, swaying but mind seems sharp. Knows the difference between electrolytes or food syringe and goes to the correct one, comes when called. Very active/curious, First time she made noise, talking and crying types. Closing eyes when resting, they have been staying open.

11/15: Continue Penn./Vitamin B injections, 2cc at 8 hour intervals, much improved, able to stand up and lay down unassisted, walking much better although always seems to turn left. Less drunk but still seems very dizzy, alert comes for food/water, has first bowel movement late morning. Will try and drink from water bowl but unable, notice first movement in tongue/jaws, will nibble with lips at dry goat food. Less active than day before but no less alert, walking seems more direct. Eats from spoon but not as well as day before, as day goes on seems very thirsty, 

11/16: Continue Penn./Vitamin B injections, 2cc at 8 hour intervals, 12:00am given vitamin B/Penn. injection, seems extra agitated by them, fluffs up immediately ,gets up walks to water bowl and trys to drink, is given 3 cups of water by syringe, seems like she cant get enough. Hair on back and face standing up making her seem fluffy, seems to not feel good, spends much of the night standing with mouth in water bowl unable to drink, this morning given Penn/vitamin b injections, does not seem to bother her, still thirsty, given more water, she is more alert, less drunk but not as active, has another bowel movement with difficulty, temp. is 102.6, no interest in food but loves water. Good urine production, mouth and jaws still not working corectly, unable to chew and seems like she has trouble swallowing at times. She is resting now, hoping to get some food in her soon.

What am I doing wrong?


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## glndg

Or....what is it that you are doing right? It looks like yesterday was the first day she started moving her tongue and lips. That's huge. :smile:


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## SerenitySquare

I am new to goats and this forum but let me say you are doing a wonderful job. Making all those notes is wonderful. I was a vet tech for over 20 years and people could not even tell us what they did with thier pet the last 24 hours.
I will say that with my experience working at the vet clinics sometimes the recovery time is long. It can be filled with many ups and downs. Like others have said Butterscotch is a fighter and with an animal like that anything is possible. You are doing an excellant job. I am also amazed at how wonderful this community is here.
Please give yourself and butterscotch a hug, take a deep breath.:hug:


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## Blazer

She is awake,...hoping to get some food in her! What about some very small pieces of apple? I have to find something she really likes to fill her belly and help her poop.


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## Naunnie

I would try something softer. Mine love Oatmeal with Raisins. She might like applesauce. Yogurt would be good for her.


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## Blazer

She is eating a honey suckle vine!!!!!! Not gonna lie,..I cried a little bit. What's funny is I was working for 30 minutes on a delicious oats/raisin/diced Apple meal and my wife noticed her trying to pick leaves of an artificial tree and went and got her a small honey suckle vine and she loved it! By the way she didn't like my oats/raisin/Apple meal


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## happybleats

thats wonderful!!!! You keep it up..Its working..shes improving...give her all the leaves and vines she wants...!! Pine and cedar are also good motivators!!!


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## Blazer

Thanks,..and yes I need lots of suggestions on things she my like as most everything is not green here anymore.


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## Naunnie

Ah! You made me cry......tears of pure joy!:wahoo:

ETA: Not sure where you are, but blackberry and wild rose leaves are still green here.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

Yeah! Yes its unusual for tetanus to not kill right away...but it sometimes does improve but not go away with antibiotics...could be not even a part of it and you are doing everything sooooo right! Much more likely an infection that is resolving


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## Blazer

Well the honey suckle and cedar back fired on us. She was able to get some of it down but ended up with a mouthful of leaves she couldn't swallow that prevented us from getting more slurry in her. I removed what I could last night and this morning she had gotten the last of it down. I think we have to hold off on the leaves until she as the strength to chew better,...I hate having to do that as she was so happy eating them. I gave her some applesauce this morning and mom is going to get some slurry in her later. She still nursed a little, can I give her a milk substitute? Just looking for something high calorie to boost her energy that will go down easy.


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## happybleats

Awe..poor baby!! There will some of those Yahoooo moments that back fire..its ok..she wanting to eat the leaves if huge!!.... you can add some milk to her slurry...also some of those leaves if you can process them well...the nurtients in them would still be good....


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## Naunnie

What all is in going in her slurry now? Which alfalfa pellets are you using? Is she getting the Nutri-Drench for Goats? How often and how much slurry is she taking? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to stay clear about her nutrition.

Like Cathy said, her showing interest and at least trying to eat the leaves shows how far she has come. This forum has taught me, changing/adding different foods needs to be done slowly. Start with small amounts of the milk replacer. She needs the calories but we can't overlook the quality of whats she eating either.


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## Blazer

I am making the slurry with Dumor goat ration from TSC, just water and goat ration. She is getting about a cup a day. She is drinking water and electrolyte mix, getting lots of this,maybe 4 cups a day. I tried mixing alfalfa in with the ration but she didn't like it. She is also getting a probiotic paste twice daily. This morning I gave her some applesauce that she seemed to do well with.


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## toth boer goats

Everyone is wonderful and so supporting, we are all rooting for her and you guys.

She has come a long way.

I would do as mentioned and maybe grind up some leaves with the slurry, not a lot.
Maybe even allow her to eat a "few" grinded up leaves on her own. It is good, if she starts trying to chew and use her mouth.
So do allow her to do so, even if it is a little bit at a time.
If she likes Alfalfa hay and it is leafy, get the leafy parts of it and see if she can eat that, a little at a time.
Make sure she gets something to drink, so it washes down the food. I know we as humans need a drink in between eating our meals to wash it down.
That may be why the whole leave thing fell back. Just a little bit, so she can work her jaw and tongue muscles this is good for her.

Keep up the good work.


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## happybleats

The thing is with Dumor goat ration or any grain..is its hard to digest, and she needs that grass base...I would switch to plain Alfalfa pellets with real whole cows milk rather then replacer if goats milk is not available...just a little to start, maybe 1/2 cup, as Naunnie said..always introduce new foods slow..she may like the alfalfa pellets better with the milk : ) use water to further liquidfy the slurry...


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## Naunnie

Just wanted to add, pellets, hay and cubes are all alfalfa, but designed for different purposes. The pellets will break down better in the slurry. The hay is great to keep in front of her, but like Pam said, the leafy parts a little at a time. The cubes are like little bricks. Even a healthy goat has trouble chewing them whole. Most folks break them up before offering them. Others folks soak them first. Its does take some time for them to soak up the liquid and then they still need breaking up.

Look for alfalfa pellets designed for livestock. TSC has a Horse on the bag. I've read the alfalfa pellets for Rabbits are not the same. I would save the goat ration for when she is all better. I understand you are worried about her nutrition, but for right now the alfalfa pellet slurry is best for her. She is getting other good stuff from the electrolytes and probiotics too.

I have had great success with the Nutri-Drench. I've used the Horse, Poultry and Dog. I'm sure the Goat is wonderful too. Critters can adsorb it fast without having to digest it.

Here is more info.http://www.nutridrench.com/faq.html if your interested. Most feed stores and TSC carry it.

Y'all are amazing! I've told everyone I know, about Ms. Butterscotch and the great care y'all are giving her. She has a lot of prayers and positive thoughts being sent her way. :grouphug:


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## toth boer goats

I agree.


The goat nutradrench is best, it has all the boosting vitamins a goat needs.


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## Blazer

You guys deserve an update!!

She is not as well as she thinks she is an that is a good thing. She wants to eat everything in site including my hotdog! She has been spoon fed for 6 days and I think she is ready to be a goat again. I pulled some honeysuckle vines and taped them up so should could reach up and eat them,..she can't pull the leaves off yet but she seemed to enjoy trying. There is an amazing story to share if Butterscotch pulls through but I am not ready to share it yet,...when she is on the pasture I will try and hold back the tears enough to share,..as of now we are getting her better.


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## happybleats

Thats a wondeful sight!!!!


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## Naunnie

happybleats said:


> Thats a wondeful sight!!!!


Yes, yes it is! I look forward to her story. We all thank you for the update.


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## Blazer

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









you can't give it in an injection,..but love has to help! Right? This is my beautiful wife giving Butterscotch some love after I have her some Penn,/vitamin B


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## toth boer goats

So adorable, yes, love is a good cure for a lot of things, no you can't inject it, but, it is heart felt.


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## Blazer

Butterscotch is even better today, energy level is much better and she is starting to explore and nibble on every thing. The nutri-drench seems to have really boosted her energy. I wished I had given it earlier, but I will know better in the future. She is refusing to be spoon fed, she wants to eat on her own but is just not ready. We are afraid she will get choked as she gets mouthfuls of hay and just holds them in the back of her mouth. We are going to hold off spoon feeding her till this afternoon and see if she is more willing. I have already had to pull out some honeysuckle leaves and hay that was in the back of her throat as it prevented us from getting slurry in her. Should I let her try and eat the hay and honeysuckle?


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## Naunnie

:hi5: I would let her eat the leaves and hay.... but offer her one piece at a time and make sure she swallows, before she gets another piece. I know that's more time consuming but, the roughage is good for her. 

Y'all have made my day....again! :thumbup:


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## toth boer goats

I agree, a little at a time.


Love hearing the great news with her, she is a trooper and such a sweet goat. You need to be commended for helping her. I know it is super hard work, 
she has progressed along way. Keep up the great work.  :hi5:


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## happybleats

I too agree...one leaf at a time...I had to roll hay in tiny balls and stuff to the back teeth of my buck with polio...he was able to chew and swollow..just not get his own...


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## Blazer

I need some suggestions on winter green foods. We have had an early winter here and most vegetation has died. I have rose bushes(the domestic kind) I can feed and there are several vines around. I just dont want to give her something I shouldnt as she is crazy about "leaves".!


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## Naunnie

It depends....a general location would help. I do know that Rhododendrons, Azaleas, Yew, and Mt. Laurel, are highly poisonous to goats. Another thing to keep in mind, anything that may have been sprayed with insecticides/pesticides should not to fed. 

Winter has hit here early too. I'm in West Georgia. The Honeysuckle, Blackberries, White pine and Cedar are still green. The Nandinas and Vinca are too but I believe they are toxic.

For Mrs. butterscotch, I would only offer 1 new thing at a time.

How is she? Any more fever? How is she pooping and tinkling?


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## Sylvie

Rose leaves are great, do you have any pine, cedar, or oak?


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## happybleats

I agree with naunnie...most berry vines are good..like black berry...all pine are safe...cedar as mentioned..avoid night shade type plants...also you can offer romain lettuce, most greens like chard...avoid ice burg...: )
where are you located? maybe some one in your area have some ideas of what grows there...


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## happybleats

I agree with naunnie...most berry vines are good..like black berry...all pine are safe...cedar as mentioned..avoid night shade type plants...also you can offer romain lettuce, most greens like chard...avoid ice burg...: )
where are you located? maybe some one in your area have some ideas of what grows there...


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## Blazer

I am in Knoxville, TN. She has been fever free for 48 hours but still not 100%. I have plenty of cedar but it is to course and sticks in her throat.


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## happybleats

yah..maybe cedar is not a good choice right now..I bet pine would stick too...


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## Naunnie

Couple more things came to mind...while I was at dinner. Grocery store items to boot! Bananas, Spinach and Beet leaves. I've read that Goats love Bananas and the peel. If I was going to feed the peel, it would only be from organic Bananas though. You can check and see what kind of fresh herbs might still be available at the grocery store too. Let us know what ya find.


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## NyGoatMom

I'm kinda butting in here....but isn't it hard on a goat to feed it new things, especially when it's sick? Not being accusatory, just wondering for real it's ok then....I'd think all this new stuff would make them even more sick :shrug:


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## Naunnie

Stephanie, I don't think you are butting in at all. You are definitely right. Any advice you can offer....we all would appreciate! I was just offering suggestions... but cautioned to go slowly, small amounts and offer one new thing at a time. Butterscotch has improved so much! I believe her people are exploring their options as she continues to improve.


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## happybleats

true adding new foods can complicate the gut...however the foods offering is in small amounts since she can manage much more...the leaves, vines, beet tops, kale, romain, ect...are all browse type foods as well so giving in a variety in small amounts is good....any new food in large amounts should be avoided...: )

as for bananas..my goats love them..and they can be smashes and given..I would avoid the peel until she can actually chew and swallow well...they can be tricky...


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## Blazer

Butterscotch continues to improve! She is more active every day and it is getting harder to tell she is or was sick. 

I have a couple of question,

1. How long should I continue the Penn. and vitamin B injections? Is there any danger of her getting them for to long?
2. She has a great appetite but is still unable to chew. She uses her lips and tongue but her jaws seem really weak, is this normal? She will pull leaves of a honey suckle vine and leave them in the back of her mouth instead of chewing them up and swallowing them.


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## happybleats

Treatment needs to be done for at least 24 hours after ALL symtpoms have cleared...with her being so bad I would continue a week longer then ween off the meds instead of cutting cold turkey...there is far more risk in stopping too soon then going a bit longer...with listerisosis...a second round is far more dangerous for her..

I bet the jaw issue is part of the listeriosis issue..since sheis now nibbling with her lips and tongue things are moving upward it seems...on the leaves as long as she can swallow its ok...We do want to see her bring up a cud and begin chewing that too


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## NyGoatMom

Naunnie said:


> Stephanie, I don't think you are butting in at all. You are definitely right. Any advice you can offer....we all would appreciate! I was just offering suggestions... but cautioned to go slowly, small amounts and offer one new thing at a time. Butterscotch has improved so much! I believe her people are exploring their options as she continues to improve.


I guess I am just a worry wart...If one of mine is down, I never add anything new....I'd probably slurry what they usually ate....but I do understand what you are saying, and you are probably right...I just worry too much


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## dnchck

Blazer said:


> View attachment 82159
> 
> 
> you can't give it in an injection,..but love has to help! Right? This is my beautiful wife giving Butterscotch some love after I have her some Penn,/vitamin B


god bless her and you! I haven't been able to give a injection yet either..scared,,thats why I have vet tech for a son..lol you both are amazing! I'm so happy to hear she is doing much better. I have been following your story ,,very sad beginning and awesome ending so far. I hope she pulls through for you! Prayers for butterscotch!


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## Blazer

Butterscotch's progress has leveled off,...she is active and seems healthy other than her not being able to chew. She has had Penn. and vitamin B injections for 8 days and is still unable to eat. I am exhausted and a little discouraged. It is like she can not close her mouth all the way? She stands with her tongue out and drooling. I can move her mouth and she seems to have full range of movement but will not chew on her own. I do not mind continuing the spoon feeding and injections as long as I am fixing the problem but I am afraid I am not. She runs her mouth on everything and tries to nibble on things but just does not have any jaw movement. I am desperate for any suggestions!!!


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## happybleats

are you able to get Banamine? Banamine is a anti inflammitory...could be some swelling is putting pressure on the area of brain she needs to correct the mouth issue...It also may just take more time...with listeriosis there can be some "left over" symptoms, usually nerve damage related, such as dragging a leg..head being tilted..ect....

also as mentioned before...give a tetanus antitoxin shot to see if there is a underlying issue with tetanus that the pen G is helping to keep mild...but since you can move the jaw, it may not be the issue but the shot wont hurt her to have ...

These are guesses and really is all we have since each case is different...I have read where it can take weeks..not days to fully recover...you have taken her from her death bed to where she is at now, which is amazing...deep breath!! you are doing great!!!


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## Blazer

Butterscotch has an appointment with a Vet. at 1:30 today. This Vet. Specializes in goats, or so I have been told. She is a $50 goat at best but I don't want her cared for as such,...she is not livestock she is a loved family member. It seems when dealing with Vets. who handle goats they want to treat the animal based on its monetary value,...I don't want Butterscotch cared for like a $50 goat and give her the shot wherever it hurts less,..I am not concerned with messing up a roast! I am nervous for her,..can you tell? I think we have reach a point with my limited skills and you guys limited information with have to look at other options.


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## toth boer goats

I agree


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## Naunnie

I am anxious to hear what the Vet says too. Hopefully, she will carry y'all and Butterscotch to the next level of treatment.

I have read Goats can recover from Listerosis but it takes time. Here is an article I bookmarked a while back about a little girl and her goat with Listerosis. http://cheesemakinghelp.blogspot.com/2012/09/maureen-herrera-on-curing-listeriosis_21.html

Watching for an update.....


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## Blazer

Vet. Leans more toward Tentanus or Rabies but admits he is stumped even asked another Vet. to give second opinion. Vets where perplexed by her slack jaw and lack of jaw muscle. Vet. Said to stop B vitamin shots and give only Thiamin that he supplied but continue with Penn. every 8 hours 2cc. Vet gave Dex. Injection,...I was really hoping for more answers.


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## Naunnie

This is from http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html

"Listeriosis is brought on by feeding silage, suddenly changing type and kind of feed (grain or hay), parasitism, dramatic weather changes, and advanced stages of pregnancy. The encephalitic form is most common, causing inflammation of the nerves in the goat's brain stem. Symptoms include some or all of the following: depression, decreased appetite, fever, leaning or stumbling or moving in one direction only, head pulled to flank with rigid neck (*similar to symptoms of tetanus*), facial paralysis on one side, blindness, slack jaw, and drooling. Diarrhea is present only in the strain of Listeriosis which causes abortions and pregnancy toxemia. Listeriosis can be mistaken for *rabies.* Immediate treatment is critical. There is no time to waste with Listeriosis. Recovery is more difficult and time-consuming than Goat Polio. A goat can go blind and completely recover its eyesight and overall health if proper treatment is provided; such treatment can take days or even weeks, depending upon the severity of the illness and how quickly treatment was begun.


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## happybleats

Yep what Naunnie said....I beleive you are on the right track with the treatment for listeriosis...Straight thiamine will be good...: ) An it does take time..as I said weeks in stead of days...you have brought her far...keep up the treatment and a bit of prayer!!

Best wishes!!!!


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## Blazer

Vet. changed Penn. injections to 2cc twice daily and wants them given in the muscle instead of under skin. Anyone know the reason behind this?


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## ksalvagno

Pen should have been given twice a day anyway. Usually you give IM to get it in the system faster. With wanting to keep the level of Pen even throughout the time you are giving it, not sure why IM.


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## happybleats

Personally, I would stick with the dose per pound on the tenn. Meat goat sight. Listeriosis needs large amounts to work And sub Q..no need to do IM, which is more painful


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## happybleats

Some vets just do not understand the metabolism of a goat...and with listeriosis..you can wimp out lol.. AND yes..twice daily...

best wishes


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## Blazer

The Vet. does not want me to give the B vitamin complex with Thiamin. Instead he supplied just Thiamin .4ml 4 times per day IM. Should she not get the B vitamins also?


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## toth boer goats

I would give the B complex with it yes, it helps with appetite too.


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## happybleats

and it does not need to me IM....Sub Q is less painful and the goat still gets the meds...how much MG is the thiamine he gave you? if its 500 mg...its 1 cc per 100#.....100 mg is 4 cc per 100# ....


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## toth boer goats

I agree


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## Blazer

Butterscotch has started bringing up her cud but once she has it in her mouth is unable to chew it. I removed two handfuls of mushy, stinky cud because it was hanging out of her mouth, should it smell so bad?

It was warm here today so we let her outside for a while, she really seemed to enjoy that! She wanted to eat everything green but just can't yet,.....I really hope her jaws start working soon.


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## happybleats

yes..the cud stinks to high heaven lol..BUT its great she is bringing it up...I know this is gross beyond gross...but I would blend some of that up with her slury...its needed goodies for a working rumen...


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## Blazer

She is seating here now with a wad as big as a golf ball in her mouth! She hates for me to take it out but she can't chew it and I can't feed her with that in her mouth?


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## happybleats

lol..no..she may choke...but she does need what it provides...so adding it to her slurry will at least get some of what she needs back to her...until she can chew it : )


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## Naunnie

Yeah, her trying to chew her cud is a great sign! Her digestion system is working! Not so long ago, we all worried about that! Bless her heart! Wow! she has such a strong will to live. I really believe it's because of y'all. She knows she is loved and that is why she try's so hard. It just warms my heart.....:hug:

Here is something to try. When you have to take her cud away from her, pinch off a tiny bit and give it back. Then the rest would be added into her slurry. I know it's kinda gross, but just remember she would do it on her own if she could. She just needs Mama and Daddy to feed her little while longer.

Here is a short article my Grand Daughter used for a home school science paper about a Goats digestion process. Y'all probably already know this. I just wanted to share because it really helped Grace to understand the whole regurgitation thing... http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/4H/meatgoats/meatgoatfs14.htm


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## Blazer

Butterscotch is bringing all her cud up,...in the last couple of hours I have pulled enough cud out of her mouth to fill a quart jar if not more! What is going on?


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## happybleats

when a goat brings it up they chew swallow, bring it back up ...its a digestive cycle...and its being broken since she cannot chew yet..maybe do as Naunnie suggested and give her some of it back...then when you are ready to feed her...just remove it...


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## toth boer goats

Good advice.


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## Blazer

Butterscotch seems to be like any other goat at this point,...climbs on everything and loves when I take her with me to feed the other goats,..if the weather permits! She still has no jaw movement,...only her lips and tongue work.

I fear we have beat Listeroisis but the nerve damage done is more than we can over come. I write this with a heavy heart, as Butterscotch nibbles on my keypad,...we love this goat but we have to what is best for Butterscotch. If she had a bad leg, or a lazy eye we could deal with that,..but a goat that can't chew?

We are not ready to give up just yet,...but it is time to start asking some hard questions!


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## Blazer




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## happybleats

full recovery can take weeks..I know it seems like it wont end but she CAN still make a full recovery....I found a story some time back...a journey and recovery story ..Im going to go find it to help encourage you : ) Im very excited about her progress so far...I know what you mean about if she cant go further a choice will have to be made...let hope and pray it doesnt have to come to that!


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## Blazer

We are absolutely not giving up,...we will do whatever it takes,..but not to torment Butterscotch. She has been fed and we are laying on her blanket together,...praying her jaws start working.


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## happybleats

I foundit! the story is less exciting then I remember lol, but maybe because since reading this a few years ago..I have seen many goats recover and am no longer shocked...: )

http://www.humblegarden.com/2009/10/07/listeriosis/


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## happybleats

I foundit! the story is less exciting then I remember lol, but maybe because since reading this a few years ago..I have seen many goats recover and am no longer shocked...: )

http://www.humblegarden.com/2009/10/07/listeriosis/

here is my own story...we believe this case was Polio...but some same issues with eating...
http://happybleatsdairygoats.weebly.com/dozers-story.html

Letting her out side is great...the more she get back to being a goat the better, might help he brain re wire some : )


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## Blazer

Butterscotch spent the day on the pasture with her mom and her other goat friends. She is a normal healthy goat other than the use of her jaws. She has suffered nerve damage to her jaw muscle that we hope will come back, but we know it may not. She is a good patient so we continue to feed her and give her hugs. We have increased her slurry intake because of her more active lifestyle since her recovery,. and I mean active pictured below standing on our kitchen table;








We have learned a sick goat is not a bad house mate but a healthy goat is a nightmare! We are not complaining, we love every minute of chasing her for shots as it was just a few days ago my dad was preparing a spot to bury her. We have stopped the Penn. injections but will continue the vitamin B/Thiamine injections.

If the nerve damage to her jaws proves to be permanent we will
Have a terrible decision to make,...but not today!!!! We are enjoying how healthy she is and watching her play with the other goats!!!!


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## Naunnie

Wow! She has come such a long way! Thanks for the pictures! I can't wait to show my family. :wahoo:


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## SerenitySquare

I was thinking of Butterscotch and was wondering how she was doing. Thank you for sharing her progress and photos.
Still sending prayers.


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## happybleats

LOL...what a sweet girl...I do hope and PRAY her jaw mends...the time out side is good for her..!!!...

Best wishes!! and a very Blessed Thanksgiving!!


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

I wonder if the vet could give any steroid injections to her jaw...


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## NyGoatMom

Great news! Yes, I imagine a mobile goat is a bit different to have in the house than a non mobile goat


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## toth boer goats

I love seeing her doing very well. Thanks for sharing. 

Prayers still coming.

I wonder if massaging her jaws would help stimulate her.


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## Blazer

My wife is in charge of "physical therapy ". She massages her jaw muscle and makes her try and bite on stuff. We want to think her jaws are working better as she will nibble on your finger and she no longer always has her mouth open,....still have a long ways to go!


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## NyGoatMom

Man...hopefully it will come back soon...having a sick or disabled animal is hard on ya....hang in there!


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## CritterCarnival

Blazer said:


> My wife is in charge of "physical therapy ". She massages her jaw muscle and makes her try and bite on stuff. We want to think her jaws are working better as she will nibble on your finger and she no longer always has her mouth open,....still have a long ways to go!


Woo Hoo!!! Go Butterscotch!! :clap:


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## happybleats

Thats great!! shes lucky to have you!!!!


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## toth boer goats

Sounds like improvement to me, progress may be slow but, I believe it is happening.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

So much to be thankful for...glad to hear she is making progress!


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## Blazer

Butterscotch started bringing up her cud last night and it has not stopped since. We woke to find 7 piles of "cud" all over the floor. It seems more like regurgitating than bringing up her cud,..it is a runny mess! We can't feed or give her water as it just comes back up! What can we do?


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## happybleats

Whats changed? hows her jaw?.is she swallowing?


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## glndg

happybleats said:


> Whats changed? hows her jaw?.is she swallowing?


The post on the 25th said that she spent the day out at pasture.

Has her diet changed considerably?


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## Blazer

Nothing has changed?

She is still unable to eat on her own so I dont think it is anything she ate,...we have increased her slurry intake.

She swallows just fine when we feed her from the syringe but has trouble "working" food back from her lips to her throat.


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## glndg

Could she have gotten into something toxic? It sounds like she may have. People on here usually recommend activated charcoal or MOM for that. There are also a couple of recipes to use in case of poisoning.
Maybe someone else has an idea. I'd call a vet if in doubt.

Here's a thread : http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f1...th-throwing-up-172705/index2.html#post1800041

You could also check to see if something is stuck in the back of her throat.


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## happybleats

maybe cut back on the amount you are feeding...might be struggling to digest it fully...see if that makes a difference...

I know this is discouraging...there is bound to be some more issues to pop up..you are handling each one wonderfully!!!


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## Blazer

We will have no choice but to cut back on food until this passes,...I am trying my best to keep fluids in her but that seems to make her spit up also. I think she is empty as far as food goes but there is still some brown watery stuff coming up. It is almost like she has the hiccups?


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## happybleats

Very strange...try drenching a bit of baking soda....since she is not ablet omake much of her own...she may need some help...mix a tablespoon of BS in enough water to drench...see if that settles things...

hows her hydration?


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## Blazer

I held out a small handful of baking soda and she licked it up in no time,...I was surprised how she seemed to like it,..I am guessing maybe a tablespoon? I was afraid to let her have more, I followed that up with some water. Should I offer more?


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## happybleats

yes let her have all she wants and Leave it our free choice for a few days...: ) fingers crossed it helps!!


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## Blazer

Thanks Cathy,...I will give that a try.


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## Naunnie

I know this may seem like a set back. but it's not. She is trying to eat what she knows she needs, but still needs a little more time for all the pieces of the puzzle to come together, so to spreak. 
Will she drink on her own? Is she trying to nibble hay/grass on her own? 

Butterscotch has come soo far. It sounds to me that her brain is far ahead of her body/digestive tract. She is so happy to still be alive, she doesn't understand, she still had some healing to do. She reminds me of a sick kid that has been on the B.R.A.T. diet for days.... but only wants to eat chicken nuggets. As glad as we are.... they are feeling better, we still have to ease their little bellies back into real food. 

Like Cathy said, cut back on her slurry. Let her have all the Baking soda she wants...for now. Make sure her rumen is working. Provide her with clean, warm water and hay but....

Most of the time, we want the hay to be long stemmed, but for Butterscotch, I think shorter pieces would be better for her.... for now. I'm thinking shorter stems to reduce her accumulating a big wad she can't swallow. As exciting as it is, for her to be interested in eating everything in site.....her rumen is not ready, just yet. 

I would limit her choices at this point. Make sure she doesn't get dehydrated , but let her get a tad bit hungry. I would offer her a small bit of chopped hay,(Alfalfa hay is yummy!)let her swallow, have some water handy to help her wash it down. Keep going until she's done or loses interest. After a bit, then give her the slurry with probiotics mixed in it, to help her rumen and keep her hydrated. I am not making lite of Butterscotch's nutrition, but hunger is a great motivator. Gosh...I hope this makes sense. Her will to live, her progress, her over coming so many obstacles, though this illness....it just amazing! 

I firmly believe that Butterscotch will recover from this. Y'alls unconditional love for Butterscotch has touched so many folks.....The world needs more people like y'all. :angel:


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## toth boer goats

I agree, overfeeding what she cannot handle right now, can cause drooling. 
Another thing to try, if decreasing food doesn't work, is, a cud transfer. Taking it from another goat. Maybe it will help stimulate her system, to start working properly, may be worth a shot.

When she brings up cud, is she chewing at all or trying?

Is she bloated?

Check for food catching in her throat, if it builds up it can cause drooling.

Toxins also cause drooling. Make sure as mentioned she didn't get a hold of anything.


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## Blazer

No,..still not chewing at all. She is also not pooping much either. This morning she passed 2 clumps about and inch around made up of tiny pellets, that is typical for each day.


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## happybleats

with her dropping her food there may not be enough going in to help her poop... Hows her rumen sound? with her not chewing a cud providing the necessarly barcabinate might make her rumen sluggish....hoping the baking soda helps...


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## toth boer goats

With her not chewing, it isn't allowing her system to work properly. We have to pray, her jaw begins to work soon. 

Hopefully the baking soda will help.


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## happybleats

Yes. Someone suggested a steroid shot for the jaw...?? Im wondering if that might help... this is new territory..so its hard to say...


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## toth boer goats

I do agree.


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## Blazer

I guess sick goats love potatoes chips! Wow she is such a handful and we love every minute of it!!!! As I type this she is climbing my leg!!


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## happybleats

LOL..that is too funny!!!! I think shes faking being sick to get all that one on one attention lol..


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## Blazer

happybleats said:


> LOL..that is too funny!!!! I think shes faking being sick to get all that one on one attention lol..


We have joked about that,..her knowing when she gets well she has to go back to the cold barn and chew her own food!

She continues to improve,..she can pick up and swallow goat ration on her own but still lacks the mouth dexterity to drink from a bowl. She "looks" like she is drinking but can't get the water from her lips to the back of her throat to swallow,...we give her all the water she needs by syringe,..but this is something we have to over come to declare her "cured".

I have to remind myself that it was just days ago my wife and I where brought to tears by her trying to stand on her own and falling,...now we are fussing at her for jumping on the dining room table!!!


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## happybleats

> I have to remind myself that it was just days ago my wife and I where brought to tears by her trying to stand on her own and falling,...now we are fussing at her for jumping on the dining room table!!!


its nothing short of a miracle!!! shes has come soooo far...


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## happybleats

> I have to remind myself that it was just days ago my wife and I where brought to tears by her trying to stand on her own and falling,...now we are fussing at her for jumping on the dining room table!!!


its nothing short of a miracle!!! shes has come soooo far...


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## Naunnie

> she can pick up and swallow goat ration on her own


She will be drinking that water from a bowl any day now!! :clap: :hug:


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## toth boer goats

Blazer said:


> We have joked about that,..her knowing when she gets well she has to go back to the cold barn and chew her own food!
> 
> She continues to improve,..she can pick up and swallow goat ration on her own but still lacks the mouth dexterity to drink from a bowl. She "looks" like she is drinking but can't get the water from her lips to the back of her throat to swallow,...we give her all the water she needs by syringe,..but this is something we have to over come to declare her "cured".
> 
> I have to remind myself that it was just days ago my wife and I where brought to tears by her trying to stand on her own and falling,...now we are fussing at her for jumping on the dining room table!!!


She is adorable, and looks really good.

When giving her water in a bowel or bucket, maybe try to hold it up to her instead of having her head down, that makes it harder on her right now, with her head more level, she may be able to get more water down her.

She is doing very well and wants those potato chips, too cute and a miracle story.


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## Blazer

I brought Butterscotch a bowl of hay in and she loved it!! I am not sure she can chew and swallow it but I am going to let her try.


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## happybleats

That is awesome!!! WOW....lumpy throat moment!!!


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## toth boer goats

Look at her, she is a trooper, how did the feeding go?


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## Blazer

She is "trying" to chew but still does not have the jaw strength. She gets hay down it just takes time. Since she has the hay she has lost interest in the goat ration,..we are still feeding the slurry because she doesn't get enough hay down but it is a fight. 

Her poop is still normally 2 golf ball sized balls made up of tiny pellets,..I'm hoping the hay will help? 

She really loves the hay and always has a mouthful.


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## Naunnie

This is wonderful news! Is her jaw working better, just still weak? Munching on hay will help strengthen her jaw. She is such an awesome little girl!

About her poops.....How does her inner lower eyelid look? Should be a dark pink to reddish color. Just a suggestion.....It might be time to have a fecal analysis run, to see how her intestinal parasite load is. Her Vet could run a test with a fresh sample. 

On 11/12 she weighed 40.3 lbs. Have you weighed her since then? I'm interested if she has gained any weight. She looks like she has grown a little to me!

How is she doing with drinking on her own? Have you tried Pam's suggestion of raising up her bowl? I was so hoping that would help...


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## toth boer goats

Hay is good for her yes, it should help her. 

She sounds to be doing much better. Good work, I highly commend you. :thumbup:


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## happybleats

might try cutting the hay in shorter length..just to make it easier to handle...Im so excited for her and you!!! the hay should help her granade poops.. : ) maybe some probiotics..


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## toth boer goats

I agree.


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## Blazer

Butterscotch continues to have problems with digesting her food,....about every 4 days she starts bringing up her cud and does not stop until she empties her stomach. Once she is empty she is very hungry and starts the process all over. I have changed her diet and it has not helped. She is getting Pro-Biotics daily and I have gone back to what she normally ate,...hay and Dumar Goat Ration but she still brings it back up every 4 days. She is pooping very little but regularly. The whole bringing up her cud process, it is more like regurgitating, last about 24 hours and after she looks very thin. I have read that Milk of Magnesia may help "move things along" but not sure about dosage,..how much how often?

It will soon be a month since her treatment started and we are still not sure a full recovery is even possible, her progress has leveled off. This was much easier when we could celebrate milestones more often,..even if they where as simple as her standing unassisted. My wife and I have discussed setting a time limit on her treatment balancing her suffering with her possibility of recovery but seeing her run around and jumping on things makes it much more difficult. I not going to lie,...we are tired!:tear:


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## happybleats

MOM is 15 cc per 60#...are you still giving Baking soda? if so you will not need both..so stop baking soda if you use MOM. 

I can understand its hard...You and your wife clearly love Butterscotch and we all know you will make the best decision you can for her..and you will hae our full support either way. 

Might Try smaller meals..the only thing I can think of is because she cant chew her cud, its throwing off the rumen..chewing the cud is a very important part of the digestive system...If you can steal a cud from another goats, this might help settle her tummy issues until she can chew..but again...that could be never :tear:
his is a strange Idea ... but in a last ditch effort, see if you can find a Chiropractor that works on animals..could be she needs an adjustment to get use of her jaw..??


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## toth boer goats

Good advice.


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## Naunnie

Chewing cud only every 4 days is not good. She should be doing that everyday. Have you noticed if she is burping? Changing her feed may have caused some Rumen upset. Is the Dumor the sweet feed or the pellets? I would hold off giving her any grain for now. If her rumen is not functioning properly, she is not able to digest it. When her rumen is working, it may sound like her belly is growling.

I've seen several folks mention feeding Chaffhaye. I've done some research and really believe it would help Butterscotch. I've seen it at TSC, but could not find it on their website. Some feed stores carry it too. Here is more info. I think their is a dealer in your area. http://www.chaffhaye.com/what-is-chaffhaye/


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## happybleats

We feed chafhay..goat love it..thats a good idea..its fermented alflafa...I also agree no grain ..use alfalfa pellets to make slurry...with her.not able.to.bring the cud up AND chew is the issue...she is loosing that from.Not being able to chew there for the body cant break everything down .....


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## toth boer goats

I agree


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## Naunnie

I've been thinking about y'all. How is Butterscotch doing?


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## happybleats

Me too...how is she


----------



## happybleats

Any news?


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## Blazer

Sorry for the lack of updates,..holidays and caring for Butterscotch have kept us busy. 

Butterscotch has not made much progress since the last update. She is still not chewing. In the last few days we have noticed some "biting" response, that has us hopeful! Her jaw is no longer just hanging but she is still unable to chew. No matter how much we feed she continues to lose weight,....we fight daily with her calorie intake. She only wants to eat hay on her own but is unable to get enough down, although she does get some. 

In the back of my mind I know we may have to put her down if her jaw does not start working,....just not sure how long to give her? She has come so far. It seems like about the time I am ready to give up on her she has another milestone. 

The downside to her needing constant care is how close we have become to her, makes this much more emotional. My wife and I are newly "empty nesters" and Butterscotch has filled a void.


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## happybleats

sounds like slow but progress...You and your wife are doing great. Im sure it is over whelming and time consuming!! Butterscotch is a mystery for sure!! 
Might try adding fat her her diet to help her maintain weight....Olive oil , flax seed oil, corn oil are all good to add a bit of bulk. Make a daily shake for her with it added. You can even use Flax seed an her shake..good fat source..good for her...also try to Chop hay into small pieces to help her eat it..maybe 2 inches in length...
what meds if any is she still on? Im thinking at this point recovery is on her own...the illness should be gone....I would however keep her on daily B complex to keep her thiamine , energy and appitite up...daily probiotics are needed since she cant chew her cud well yet...I just have a feeling you will walk in her room one day and she will be chewing a cud and looking up at you with a face that says "what?" lol

Things to consider
steroid shot? it was recomended earlier ...might kick start her jaw??

jaw excersize...lift her jaw closed and see if she will push it open and then openit and seeif she will try to close it...might not be a strong movement but each time may strengthen it...if she cant do much onher own...try massaging the jaw while opening and closing it...I would also use ess. oil to massage...Frankinsence , basil, cypress are a few I would choose...there are others..like working with a stroke patient...


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## toth boer goats

Good advice.


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## Blazer

The relationship my wife and Butterscotch has formed is amazing. They seem to speak the same language. 

My wife will be feeding her with the syringe and notice she has too much in her mouth and tell her to get her a drink of water and she will! Butterscotch has been staying in our mud room so we can take care of her and keep her warm. When the weather is warm we let her out with the other goats during the day. Butterscotch will tell my wife when she is ready to go inside,...she opens the gate and they walk back to the house together. Butterscotch does not like to sleep on the ground so we put a large plastic tote in the mud room so she could sleep on it. The top is slick so my wife spreads a beach towel on it for her. The other night we heard Butterscotch crying and I asked my wife what was wrong and she said she has knocked her towel off her box,...I walk in there and sure enough her towel was laying in the floor,...scary!!! Lol

Butterscotch is still getting Pro-biotics, Nutri drench, 3cc vitamin B complex 2x daily and 4cc penn. 2x daily. I plan on stopping the penn. On the 16th,..that will be one month. I asked a vet. about Steroid shot and he did not recommend it,...said it would do nothing for a nerve problem which is more than likely the problem.


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## happybleats

I agree stopping the pen...shes had it long enough to do its job...I would also stop Nutra drench and just stick with Probiotics and B complex...I dont know if the steroid shot would help or not...but if it were me and nothing else did..I might try...but since you said she has small biting skills now I would wait...massage and keep with the therapy...

Sounds like your wife and butterscotch can read eachothers mind lol


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## Goat_in_Himmel

I have been reading* about humans with nerve damage, who have had movement restored with therapy like happybleats suggests: moving the jaw, so the nerve knows that the joint is mobile, and that it's still responsible for directing the muscle, and doesn't "learn" that there is nothing for it to do with the jaw, and be coopted for directing a different part of the body. So yeah, moving the jaw for her to keep the brain-muscle connection alive, sounds like a really good idea.
*_The Brain That Changes Itself_ by Norman Doidge, MD


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## Blazer

Butterscotch has bugs!!!

Not sure what they are,...just noticed them tonight,...tiny black/grey bugs attached to her skin head first smaller than fleas but not by much. Lice maybe? I have some Ivermectin 1.87% paste will that get rid of them?


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## happybleats

Yes sounds like lice...tis the season...you can try 7 dust or Python dust...put in an old sock and pat all over her...brush in it real well...ivomec orally wont help....Cylence is good...its a pour on you put down the spine...
brushing a lot helps too..lice dont like thier house messed with : )


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## Trickyroo

Yeah , my guys have been scratching and breaking their coats up.
Ive used the Python dust and haven't seen any of those swirls they leave when itching themselves. I think they got it from the straw


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## goathiker

Ivomectin orally does stop them from laying fertile eggs. Using it with a topical treatment ensures that they aren't reproducing more.


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## happybleats

> Ivomectin orally does stop them from laying fertile eggs. Using it with a topical treatment ensures that they aren't reproducing more.


Good to know!!!


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## toth boer goats

I agree.


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## Blazer

What's the dosage for Ivermectin and any problem giving it to a sick goat?


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## happybleats

1 cc per 33# orally...she should take it well... since she is pretty strong other then the jaw issue...: )


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## Blazer

This is very difficult for me to say,...I had to put Butterscotch down a little while ago. The last week she had begun to lose weight rapidly and was very weak. Her jaw movement had not improved in 2 weeks and everything we feed her would come up over night. We knew there was a good chance the nerve damage would be permanent and it proved to be. Chewing is such an important part of a goats digestion force feeding is not enough for an extended time.

You guys have all been so supportive and helpful I really hate to bring the bad news. It is not for nothing though! Caring for Butterscotch has taught us so much about goats our other goats will be much healthier for it.

We fought cause Butterscotch fought,....rest in peace Butterscotch.


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## ksalvagno

I'm so sorry. You did what was best for her. You went above and beyond so you can know that you truly did everything you could for her.


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## CritterCarnival

Awww...so heartbreaking, I'm so sorry. :hug:


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## glndg

I'm sorry. You tried so hard. She had a longer, happier life because of your efforts, but there is only so much you can do sometimes. Your story was inspiring and I know many of us here also know a little more about goats because of Butterscotch.


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## groovyoldlady

Ohhhh. I am so sorry. It is NEVER easy to lose one of your furry babies. (((((Hugs)))))


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## ariella42

I'm so sorry to hear that, but you did what was best for her. You gave her a lot of love and care, and definitely went above and beyond fighting for her :hug:


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## toth boer goats

I am so sorry.  :hug:


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## dreamacresfarm2

You did the right thing - the hardest part is knowing when and it sounds like you made s very informed and caring decision.


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## happybleats

Im very sorry ....we all know you did what was needed and we also.know it broke your heart..((hugs))


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## Hodgson

Sorry. 
If she could talk, she would have thanked you for your love and care and told you she knows you tried your best.


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## Trickyroo

Im so sorry honey :hug: You did all you could and in the end , you gave her the only thing left , peace. 
Rest In Peace Beautiful Butterscotch :tears:


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