# worming schedule and grain feeding



## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

I would like to know what different people do for a worming schedule and how much grain they feed, not necessarily any relation between the 2, just that what I'm doing isnt working. I have registered boers, unregistered boers crosses, and I had a dairy goat. I've found it impossible to keep them in any reasonable condition through pregnancy and kidding (5 sets of kids I've had born, to give you an idea of the small sample size). Im looking for guidance on all stages of life. I know they say you have to find what works for you, but I havent found that yet. I recently bought a boer buck thats 2 weeks younger than my almost 6 month old buck and the new one is almost twice the size, but then again I can't get the small one to eat any grain...hes actually figured out how to spit it out when I put it in his mouth when he thinks I cant see him doing it...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What are you doing currently?


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

Worming schedules lead to drug-resistant parasites, so I use a targeted parasite control method where I only treat the goats that need it (I'm still learning and working with it to get my system right.)

Only 30% of the goats are going to have 80% of the worms - deworming everyone on a schedule ensures that only the strongest, resistant worms survive. Eventually you will create worms that cannot be killed by any drugs on the market.

The worst worms I have are Barber's Pole worms - if I can control them, then all the other worms will be in control as well. I watched a great video on targeted parasite control, and while it is very long I highly recommend it:


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Tell us more about what your goats are eating currently. Are they on acres of pasture & browse or in more of a dry lot situation? Do you offer free choice hay? What kind of hay? What grain are you offering and how much? 

FAMACHA scoring and fecal analysis (MidAmerica Agricultural Research offers fecals for only $5 per sample, it's a mail in service) will tell you when you need to deworm. In many herds, does are automatically dewormed immediately after kidding as the birthing hormones supposedly make them susceptible to a worm bloom. But that is the only "automatic" deworming, otherwise everything is based on FAMACHA, fecal analysis, or other symptoms such as scours, weight loss, rough coat, etc. 

Was the boer buckling you just purchased on full feed (creep feeding with 24/7 unlimited access) or do you know how much and what he was being fed compared to your buckling? Genetics certainly play a role as well. 

What minerals do you offer your herd?

My herd is a mix of registered and commercial boers (and some crosses) with a primary goal of meat production. My does get a pelleted goat grain & alfalfa starting approx. 2 weeks before kidding due dates to get their digestive systems adjusted. I work them up to 1 pound each until kidding, and then depending on the number of kids they are raising, add more (usually 1 lb per kid) and continue feeding them until the kids are about 12 weeks old. I allow and expect them to lose weight while raising kids, that's totally natural in my opinion, but I don't like them to get completely skeletal. Good parasite management plays a large role in this. 

The rest of the year they are on pasture, free choice grass hay, and autumn-winter they have protein tubs available. That is what works for my herd. 

Minerals and parasite management are super critical to their weight maintenance. In addition, not looking at too many photos of show boers (who are purposefully over-conditioned) helps too  hahaha


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## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

the does are on about of a 3rd of an acre of pasture, split in half for rotation (still not enough), and I also give free choice hay. Its a mixture of grass hay and alfalfa from my grandpas farm, not sure how old the hay field is, they sell some of it, but its partially to give my grandpa something to do (he drives the baler), and he lets me take what I need, so quality (not moldy or anything, its new hay, just not sure on the nutritional quality) is questionable. Up until sunday, the boys were in pens in the barn getting free choice hay, now they are out on about the same size pasture as the girls so Ill have to get some hay out eventually. The new buck I bought was getting 2 lbs of grain a day, I weighed my grain out, I was feeding 5.4 ounces(1 cup) to the boys, and the little one wont even eat it. I try and get the girls that are milking 2&1/4 cups 2x a day, so that works out to about 25 ounces) I have currently had some major worm problems, the vet recommended a deworming schedule rotating dewormers, but I really dont want to do that, he may have been saying just until I get the problems under control though. my deworming schedule was in the fall before coming in from the pasture and in spring before going out on the pasture. I also always try to put them in a spot they normally arent (a separate pen in the barn) for the next 24-48 hours after I deworm and then leave that pen empty for 3 weeks. Ill have to watch that video when its not so late at night. lol


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## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

I should also add that Ive been feeding the 1 cup throughout the year to everybody, kids get less, I've been working on increasing it. Ive been thinking about getting the hay tested for nutritional value. everythings been working fine up until now (about 2 years) now all of the sudden, problems galore.


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

This is a very bad year for worms, at least for me. It's been several weeks of hot, wet, humid weather and that's the perfect conditions to breed barbers pole worms. Unless you're checking FAMACHA scores, there will be really no warning before the barber's pole kills a goat.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Unfortunately continuing allowing them to graze on 1/3 of an acre will seriously contribute to parasite issues. Grazing very short pasture just forces them to continuously re-ingest parasites that have hatched from eggs in their droppings. The shorter the pasture, the more parasites they ingest. If you have the option to dry-lot them with hay racks up off the ground for free choice hay, I would do that and assess & treat the parasite issues. It is a very bad year in some parts of the country.

Your hay sounds like it is probably great! What type of grain are you feeding? Surprised your buckling doesn't dig in.

1 cup of grain is a snack for a full size goat, it will not contribute to their body condition or support them during lactation. It's fine to feed them a cup a day to keep them friendly or be able to check them over etc. but it really won't impact their growth or weight at that amount. Both genetics, and 2 lbs of grain a day, likely contributed to your purchased buckling being so much larger.

I certainly recommend using FAMACHA scoring and fecal analysis to determine which goats need deworming. Here is a chart of goat deworming dosages, it's imperative to repeat deworming 10-14 days after the first dose to kill the next hatch. http://media.wix.com/ugd/aded98_c7a6cc3b624043aeaefe8693f9f13c71.pdf


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## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

that is an extremely informative video. I dont particularly like what I learned about pasture management, I thought that the life cycle was 3 weeks and after that they died and were gone from the pasture if they didnt find a host. I really dont like putting animals on dry lot, I try and do more natural things, whats the minimum amount of pasture you would recommend for 2 or 3 goats?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

1 acre split for rotation should be adequate for 3 full size goats so allow the an adequate rest period and make sure they are not grazing below 6" vegetation height. However, it does depend on the quality of forage and also on the year - if it is an extreme rainy year or extreme drought year, conditions may be different!


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

I you haven't built the fields yet for your goats, I would make them as big as you possibly can. The fields always look huge when you first make them, but as time goes on they sure seem to shrink.


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## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

we rent our property, so space is limited (its 90 acres total, but most of it is farm field, and our landlord doesn't want to take any land away from the farmer renting the land) I'm thinking about moving our garden, with would give about another quarter acre, would leave us with a much small garden, but its mostly weeds anyways, lol I was thinking, what if I were to rotate the boys through the 3 pastures and supplement them with hay, so the worms would be limited, and the hay would supplement what the pasture cant? would that provide any benefit? We have a total of probly 2/3 of an acre fenced, divided in to 3 (not equal parts), granted this is a very rough estimate (between the 2 we used 2 330ft rolls of fencing, plus about another 60ft, plus the barn makes up some of the fence on one of them)


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

I think the rotating pastures idea you have is pretty good - it's the closest to how goats want to live in the wild. With several fields they can spend 2+ months in each and then move on, that way the worm load should stay pretty low as each time a field rests lots of worms will die.


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## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

What kind of rotation is best? like how long should I leave them on one pasture before moving them to the next one?


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

Hmm... I don't have a rotational system set up here but I've been looking into it. It'd probably depend on the season and how well the grass is growing. The bottom line would be each field needs a minimum of 2 months without ruminants in it in order for the parasites to die. Other than that, I would probably watch the height of the grass in the field - barber's pole larva won't climb higher than 4" to 6". Once the field was lower than 6" or so I would probably move the animals.


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## Melinda29 (Apr 19, 2016)

meghank said:


> What kind of rotation is best? like how long should I leave them on one pasture before moving them to the next one?


I can't say what is best, but we rotate our pasture every week. We have two does in a 16x16' pen made of cattle panels, with a t-post in each corner, attached with carabiners on the top and bottom of each corner. That makes them very portable. Every week I leave two of the t-posts and one panel in place, move two of the t-posts and swing two of the panels around on the carabiners, and move the last panel to the fourth side. They have an x-large dogloo in the pen for shade and shelter. It takes maybe 20 minutes total. They get free choice alfalfa pellets and loose minerals. Our pastures are lespedeza and brome grass, so they are getting a good amount of protein just from pasture and don't eat much alfalfa. I've never had to deworm them (yet) and they don't get grain (yet, they will get some during pregnancy and lactation). One week seems about right for us. Over time, the pasture quality will just improve with this system.

2/3 of an acre would give you over a hundred 16x16' paddocks if you were to do the same, more than enough to either make the paddocks bigger than mine or rotate them much more often, even daily if you needed to. I'm far from being an expert, but I do know that with intense rotational grazing, the greatest benefit to both pasture and animal is when the paddocks are smaller and can be moved as frequently as possible.


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

meghank said:


> that is an extremely informative video. I dont particularly like what I learned about pasture management, I thought that the life cycle was 3 weeks and after that they died and were gone from the pasture if they didnt find a host. I really dont like putting animals on dry lot, I try and do more natural things, whats the minimum amount of pasture you would recommend for 2 or 3 goats?


I like to do things as naturally as possible too, but very few of us can truly keep goats naturally, because we don't have acres and acres for them to roam. So, rather than have them eating grass that is too short and constantly ingesting parasites, I would absolutely dry-lot them when things get eaten low, and only let them graze when the vegetation is tall enough. A dry-lot could just be another part of your rotation. We all like to see out goats happily chomping on green stuff, so it took an adjustment of my ideas to realize that sometimes a dry-lot is indeed the healthier option.

I don't have rotation systems set up yet. I'd like to, but have not been able to afford it yet. But I do have over an acre of mostly shrubby browse for my 4 goats, so they are never eating anywhere close to the ground. The grass that is in their pen never gets eaten any shorter than 12 inches. Despite living in warm, humid, rains-nearly-every-day Hawaii, notorious weather for parasites, I have had very few parasite problems. I've not had to use a chemical wormer in the year and a half I've had goats, and only use the herbal wormers sporadically. To me, keeping goats from eating near the ground seems to be the biggest piece of the puzzle when it comes to parasite management.


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## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

so correct me if I'm wrong, if I keep them from being able to ingest any infectious larva for several months, eventually they should be free of stomach worms? 
Melinda29: I currently have 2 does is a 6x6 dog kennel, we are considering making it 12x12, and Ive been moving them several times a day. right now they're actually on the lawn, as I'm waiting for the pasture to be less wormy (we've mowed it twice, I'm thinking after it grows back this time, it should be ok). I like the idea of using cattle panels, it seems like it would be easier to move then a dog kennel, but we already have the dog kennels, maybe we could do that with the bucks. The newest pasture is a big hill, so that wouldn't work so good like that, although I was thinking about some of that goat and poultry netting to make separate pens like that, I don't trust it to keep them in a pasture, but it would probly work for portable dividers.

lilaalil: what kind of plants do you have in your pasture? I've been thinking about planting our pastures with browse, but don't know if it will be able to grow back quick enough or what plants to use.


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm afraid I can't help you much with the plants, unless you are in Hawaii or someplace tropical like me. Temperate plants would all be different. I just fenced in a piece of the jungle, so the plants there are not the ideal ones for goats (don't seem super nutritious or palatable) but they do eat them, just not enough to actually live on them. I'd like to cross-fence so I can plant more nutritious plants and give them time to grow, but that is way off, financially, if ever. I do grow all kinds of tasty and nutritious trees and shrubs outside of the goat pen, which I cut for them daily, as well as gathering them around the neighborhood when possible. This is part of why they never eat down the stuff inside their pen too badly; they prefer to the stuff I cut for them, and only go for for the stuff inside when they are desperate. We also have the advantage of daily rainfall making things grow back FAST. Which can also be viewed as a disadvantage, since they are generally less nutritious than slower-growing plants.

If anyone else has info about what plants to grow in a temperate climate, I would love to learn. We may relocate to somewhere like Northern California or Oregon in 3-5 years, and I know next to nothing about temperate plants.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Where do you live, Meghank? I do think it would be hard to start new browse plants with the goats on the land--they'd never have a chance to grow. I suppose it would depend of the kind of bushes or trees or whatever you planted, along with other factors, as to how long you'd need to keep the goats off. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who's done this! Also I wonder if some kind of vetch would work--some kind of perennial herbaceous vine-y plant. That might be graze-able sooner. (Spellcheck says those aren't words & I'm too lazy to look them up!)

Also, what exactly is looking wrong about your goats? Skinny, bad coats, getting sick? Maybe you'd like to send photos. I didn't notice anywhere what you were giving them in the way of mineral supplements. They can be getting enough calories, have no worms, & still look crummy if they're deficient in some minerals. Having goats is so darn complicated--a lot trickier than having dogs or cats! I still can't believe all the things that can go wrong! I had a cat live to 21 & the only sicknesses I ever remember her having were a bladder infection & a sinus problem in all those years.


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## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

lol, the answer to what is wrong with them is a long one, I have a separate post on that under health and wellness titled swollen head on goat, but the short version is diarrhea, the vet says its barberpole, I have one thats really scruffy looking, hes the one that wouldn't eat grain (he just started to though), but they do get a loose goat mineral on top of their grain everyday (roughly one ounce per lb of body weight, which is what the bag recommends). I know it should be fed free choice, but until I have a suitably goat proof mineral feeder set up, i figure thats better than nothing. 

we're in northeastern wisconsin, I thought about the fact that you had said you were in hawaii and the plants would be completely different after I posted that. It must be beautiful there.


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## Spanky (Sep 5, 2016)

*Sorry, I am new*

When I tried to post a thread, message came up and told me I had to register. Already did that. Can someone help me find instructions on how to use this site.
Sorry to post this here, but I didn't know what else to do.
Thank you!


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

If you have a strong goat fence, you could consider planting shrubs on the outside of it. When the shrubs grow to where the goats can reach them through the fence, they'll just be able to take the edges off the shrubs without defoliating or killing them. I have not yet figured out if this is a really bad idea for your longevity of your fence, but I figure, even when I don't plant anything there, they are climbing on it and reaching through all the time for whatever they can reach.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

lilaalil said:


> If you have a strong goat fence, you could consider planting shrubs on the outside of it. When the shrubs grow to where the goats can reach them through the fence, they'll just be able to take the edges off the shrubs without defoliating or killing them. I have not yet figured out if this is a really bad idea for your longevity of your fence, but I figure, even when I don't plant anything there, they are climbing on it and reaching through all the time for whatever they can reach.


Good thinking!!! Just don't underestimate how long their necks are!


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Spanky said:


> When I tried to post a thread, message came up and told me I had to register. Already did that. Can someone help me find instructions on how to use this site.
> Sorry to post this here, but I didn't know what else to do.
> Thank you!


Oh I know!!! I'm hopeless at computer stuff. There's a black bar at the top of this page & all the way on the right end of the black bar it should say "my account" if your registration worked. If it didn't, I hope someone smarter than me (which is about everyone when it comes to computers!) will come to your aid!


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

meghank said:


> they do get a loose goat mineral on top of their grain everyday (roughly one ounce per lb of body weight, which is what the bag recommends). I know it should be fed free choice, but until I have a suitably goat proof mineral feeder set up, i figure thats better than nothing. QUOTE]
> 
> I did this with my bucks for a while, thinking the same thing as you - that it's better than nothing. Then, suddenly, one day they both had diarrhea and there was some foam on their mouths - they were eating too much mineral! I quickly stopped putting the mineral on their food and they've never had symptoms like that again.


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## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

would a bucket strapped to a wooden corner post be sufficient? My bucks are actually doing better than my does had been, but thats more related to worms, since the boys were in the barn and the girls were out on pasture.

we have grape vines that grow all over the hill our new pasture is on, I wanted to include them, but my fiance didn't understand what was going on when we were digging the holes for the posts, and didn't think to ask. I've thought about using live trees for corner posts, and as the trees grew, they would keep the fence tight, I've been told it wouldn't work, but you would never have to replace your corner posts, at least not in your lifetime. Growing browse plants would take more time to be graze-able, but quality pasture is an investment, and can be time intensive. We did go out and buy cattle panels yesterday, I think that just might be the solution to all (or at least the worm side) of our problem, probly should have gotten the 13 wire combination panel, but we'll see how that goes.

I'm not sure how well the woven wire field fence would work out for letting them get through to food (my bucks managed to lift the gate off the hinges yesterday because I haven't covered it with fencing yet), most of mine have horns and if they put their heads through the fence, they tend to get stuck.

I'll try and post some pics of whats going on, but haven't tried to do that yet.


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

A bucket on a post would probably work - although they'd never eat a whole bucket of mineral before it got old.  What I've done in the past is feed the goats, let them eat all the feed, then put some mineral in the trough afterwards. 

We've used live trees as part of our buck fence. They won't grow and keep the fence tight but they are very sturdy and are working well. Trees aren't straight like a fence post, though, so it can be some work to make sure there isn't any space under the fence on the ground. But, I have miniature goats so that might be less of a problem for the full sized breeds.


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## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

I just started going back to school and am taking a plant class, I should ask them about what kind of plants would be suitable for browse in a pasture. The bucks have a tree in the new pasture and have started ripping the bark off of it. poor tree, they did seem incredibly proud of themselves though, bounding down the hill like little kids when I walked with them to show me what they had done. It was cute to see 3 bucks looking at me while they tear the bark off of a poor unsuspecting tree. One just sort of stood there looking at them like they were all crazy. lol


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

You might want to look into leguminous trees and shrubs. I have no idea what that would be in your area, but basically they are trees and shrubs in the pea and bean family. In the tropics, we have tons of different varieties. Alfalfa is a legume too. 

Legumes fix nitrogen, which means that they are able to grow very quickly, and are generally higher in protein then non-nitrogen-fixing plants. 

I know honey locust is one that some temperate permaculturists like for animal feed and green manure, but also that it is extremely thorny so most consider it a nuisance. I doubt your landlord would appreciate you planting that. But there may be other options. 

But honestly, if hay were cheap here, I would probably just buy good, preferably organic, hay and let them graze when possible, and be done with it  Here alfalfa hay is about a dollar a pound and grass hay about half that (all shipped in from the mainland) so I have to grow most of my own feed or not have goats at all.


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## meghank (Aug 18, 2016)

Melinda29 said:


> I can't say what is best, but we rotate our pasture every week. We have two does in a 16x16' pen made of cattle panels, with a t-post in each corner, attached with carabiners on the top and bottom of each corner. That makes them very portable. Every week I leave two of the t-posts and one panel in place, move two of the t-posts and swing two of the panels around on the carabiners, and move the last panel to the fourth side. They have an x-large dogloo in the pen for shade and shelter. It takes maybe 20 minutes total. They get free choice alfalfa pellets and loose minerals. Our pastures are lespedeza and brome grass, so they are getting a good amount of protein just from pasture and don't eat much alfalfa. I've never had to deworm them (yet) and they don't get grain (yet, they will get some during pregnancy and lactation). One week seems about right for us. Over time, the pasture quality will just improve with this system.
> 
> 2/3 of an acre would give you over a hundred 16x16' paddocks if you were to do the same, more than enough to either make the paddocks bigger than mine or rotate them much more often, even daily if you needed to. I'm far from being an expert, but I do know that with intense rotational grazing, the greatest benefit to both pasture and animal is when the paddocks are smaller and can be moved as frequently as possible.


what age/breed are your does? Apparently lespedeza doesn't grow good here, according to one of my teachers. Apparently honey locust is native here, so that might be a good option, also, there are thornless varieties, according to my botany class


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