# Dairy goat confo.



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Here is a link... very good imformation!

http://www.debpnigerians.com/choosingyourgoat.htm


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

GREAT read, thanks for posting this!


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I like what is said but do have a comment on the rump. A steep rump is actually supposed to make kidding easier not harder. You don't want a rump that is really steep but flat level will possibly lead to kidding issues.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

freedomstarfarm said:


> I like what is said but do have a comment on the rump. A steep rump is actually supposed to make kidding easier not harder. You don't want a rump that is really steep but flat level will possibly lead to kidding issues.


 that is realy good to know.... thanks Logan!
Then why do people breed for flat level rumps?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

freedomstarfarm said:


> I like what is said but do have a comment on the rump. A steep rump is actually supposed to make kidding easier not harder. You don't want a rump that is really steep but flat level will possibly lead to kidding issues.


I would have to disagree here. A nice, level rump will not make kidding harder. A steep rump makes it harder for the kids to come out. You want a rump that is "level", but has a slight slope for natural drainage.

If kidding was made easier with steep rumps, we wouldn't be breeding our dairy goats for level rumps.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

^ that is what I have always heard..... it seemed to make more sence...


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## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

Nice info... thanks!


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

ok now I am confused I have heard from a real successful old school breeder and a bunch of other breeders that a rump that slopes down on the back half a little is desired to help ease of kidding. I heard that you never want a rump to slope forward from the pin bones only backwards. Not that you want a big slope like a ski slope but a light slope. WHen the goat with this slight slope back is walking and moving around in the pasture you can see the slope but when set up in a show stance it looks level. 
:shrug: :scratch: Confused.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

freedomstarfarm said:


> ok now I am confused I have heard from a real successful old school breeder and a bunch of other breeders that a rump that slopes down on the back half a little is desired to help ease of kidding.


A slight angle to the rump IS desired...but that does not make it a steep rump just because there is an angle there. That's how it's supposed to look. You would call that level.



freedomstarfarm said:


> I heard that you never want a rump to slope forward from the pin bones only backwards. Not that you want a big slope like a ski slope but a light slope. WHen the goat with this slight slope back is walking and moving around in the pasture you can see the slope but when set up in a show stance it looks level.
> Confused.


In my opinion, if a goat has a steep rump when "out and about", that goat does not have a level rump just because it sets up looking like it has a level rump. The goat should have a level rump in pasture or set up...walking or standing square.

The term "level" when referring to a goat's rump...it's usually not describing a rump that is actually flat across...you can say it's level...but there is still a slight angle to it...that's just the term used.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Ok I can clear this up. I wondered the same thing when I first got into dairy goats, always having know in cattle that the sloped rump = easy calving. So I couldnt understand why we select for level rumps. 

Yes, a 'steep' ie sloped or angled downwards rump (ie hip to pin bones) DOES allow for easier kidding. Because the kid is given a downwards guide when coming out. This is why Brahman and other bos indicus cattle are easy calvers, they all have the sloping rump. 

The reason we select AGAINST steep rumps is because first and foremost these are dairy animals - ie milk producing. The flatter or more level rump correlates with stronger udder attachment and is able to hold a heavier weight of milk underneath it. It also tends to allow for more extension of the foreudder. The same thing is seen in dairy cattle - they have selected for level rumps to be able to support the high level of milk production and as such they have good udders with lots of milk, extended foreudders and the entire udder is held up well. But dairy cows have higher levels of birthing problems, in part (there are other factors as well) due to the level rump - the calf actually has to move up and over the pelvis before heading 'down and out' because of the level rump and thus the tilt of the pelvis. 

In goats we are lucky as due to the propensity for twins etc. our kids are not big, so the level rump really does not have a significant impact on kidding ability. Thus we are able to focus on breeding for level rumps which is a GOOD thing for milk production, without worrying about any negative side effects on birthing. 

Hope that helps


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Can you show me an example of what you consider "steep" because what I consider steep I have never heard of making for an easier kidding...just the opposite. 

What you are saying about the udder and rump relation is spot on though from what i've read. :thumb: 

A rump with a slight angle is not my definition of steep. The rump below is what I would call steep. But if this rump will make for easier kiddings like you say that is news to me. :shrug:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Here's an old topic I found about rumps: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4981


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

What Keren said is exactly what I have heard. 
The rump in the photo you posted Kylee is what I would consider steep and undesirable. Way more slope than I want in my goats but thought it was a easier kidder.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Ok good. At least we are agreeing there. :laugh:  I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the easier kiddings from steep rumps though.

I did manage to find this article which is exactly what i've always heard and read about the relation to kidding, but that's ok...like I said we don't have to agree. 
http://kickadeehill.com/documents/How%2 ... gevity.pdf

Rump Angle A slight angle to the rump allows gravity to aid the cleaning process
after kidding. A steep rump shortens the length and area available
for udder attachment and puts stress on the legs for weight
bearing. It also causes a hardship on delivery, pushing the kid up
and over the pelvic area, rather than the smooth delivery offered by
the slightly angled rump.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I read that page through! Very interesting.
I am curious if any studies have been done on the steep vs. level rump question. Maybe we should all post confo shots of our does, stating whether or not they have had trouble kidding (and what kind of trouble).
I'm only half serious, but that would be a really interesting study. Ease of kidding is high on my must-have list!


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Oh and I have no clue just have heard. 
I will pay more attention to my herd and note the does that have difficult kidding and what their rumps are like.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I much prefer the look of a doe as level as possible. I don't like the look of a slope no matter the degree.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Though not dairy, one of my Boers has a fairly steep rump. She has never had a lick of kidding problems.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Thanks for the info Nancy. Now this really would be a interesting study.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I agree! I'll post a 'rump shot of my doe that had some trouble kidding last year and see what you all think.....


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Ok these are the only one I can find... not the best sorry....
[attachment=1:rdvd16bz]GS.side.PNG[/attachment:rdvd16bz]
[attachment=0:rdvd16bz]GS show.jpg[/attachment:rdvd16bz]

The kid was backwards and her hock was comming out first.... so I don't think the slop of her rump had anything to do with it.....


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I think that it was kid position that caused the difficulty.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

That is what I think too.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Malpresentations are not a fair way to judge a doe for ease of kidding. Hopefully this year the kids are positioned the right way and then judging her ease of kidding will be much better.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I hope so too! last year was our first year kidding and she was a bit stressful!


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I've also heard from a few breeders that a rump with a bit of a slope makes it easier for kidding, and that the real trick is to find the perfect balance that aids both miking longevity and kidding.

Of course at least one of those breeders also REALLY hates some of the breed standards from the adga, and still can't understand why the standards are written by someone who wants the host to look the part without knowing for a fact that the standard actually helps, but thats a whole 'nuther can of worms.


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