# Low birth weight bucks/kidding ease?



## CantMiss (Mar 25, 2013)

The cattle folks have been using low birth weight good quality bulls specifically on their young heifers for a while now. They are able to breed first timers earlier an in turn don't go so long before turning a profit on females they've kept back or bought young as replacements. Building a herd is tough where I'm at because you can't find breeding age does that are any account that aren't outrageously priced. Is there anyone in the show or commercial world that is breeding bucks for low birth weight, big ADG and kidding ease?


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Interesting question!
Since I dont know cattle at all I cant really say. BUT if my does are not overfed in the last month or 2 of pregnancy they usually do well with plenty good loose minerals no matter which buck has serviced them.
And Ive used huge mature bucks down to a 9 mo old.


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I do note birth weights on bucks I want to use. Most of it I think comes down to feeding but some of genetic. I wish we kept EPDs on goats like they do on cattle. It would be helpful


----------



## CantMiss (Mar 25, 2013)

I've also used mature bucks all the way down to very young bucks on my does. What I have in mind is breeding younger than average does to increase profitability. Jan/Feb born does are 18 months old by the time I put a buck in with them the following July. If I could breed those same does at 7-8 months old they are becoming profitable earlier and in turn increasing my profitability. Raising goats is not my sole income but we do run it like a business and are always looking for new ways to increase our profits. We like having them around but they have to earn their keep. I know the cattle industry has been around much longer in the US than the goat industry has but it just seems that we are lightyears behind in several aspects.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

It's hard to be patient, I know, but you'll be better off if you are. 
Cattle usually have one. What the birth weight of the one is, is probably more reliable than in a species that often has 1-4 young. I think in Boer goats birthing ease has been more often considered in the confirmation of the doe.


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree to some extent. Usually a doe with a failr wide, level hip wont have a problem kidding. Although, we have more issues of poorly positioned kids and super big kids getting stuck than anything. I think its like anything- Find a balance. EPDs help balance everything out better but at the same time we need to watch our does... some are prone to larger kids due to genetics just like bucks


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

The age of the bucks used are not a factor, genetics are. The way a doe is fed is also a big factor in how big the kids will be. With mammoth size bucks that have the genetics for that size should not be used in smaller does, big big bucks should only be used on a doe that can handle very large kids.


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> The age of the bucks used are not a factor, genetics are. The way a doe is fed is also a big factor in how big the kids will be. With mammoth size bucks that have the genetics for that size should not be used in smaller does, big big bucks should only be used on a doe that can handle very large kids.


Exactly. Its all in genetics and feeding. Does need big open hips to birth easy and they need low birth weights. Same with bucks. If we producers emphasize this we can breed out a lot of kidding issues. Some are inevitable but still, we.can do preventative breeding and feeding


----------



## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

I agree, feeding plays a big part. The condition of the doe can also play a role, you want her to have nice muscle tone from going on walks, to keep up her core strength so that she can position her babies and push them out more easily. My mom said when she was in practice, almost all of the dystocia problems she had came from women who weren't in good shape. The athletic ladies just popped them out. It was the same way with her cows.


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I have often wondered about this. But how does one know? 
Some of my does are regular hotels that can spit out 10 & 12# trips or quads of lesser weight without batting an eye. And you can fish around thinking she's all done, come back several hrs later & she has #3 all clean & dry. Or #4.
One doe who though kids werent particularly large;10 & 11lb literally dead weight I had to pull, there was NO room to work.
She didnt appear visually to have small pelvis.
Maybe it was because they had recently expired inutero?


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

They have a pelvic measure thing for goats and sheep now. If you look over the top of the hip you want the pin bone to be exceptionally wider than the hook... that is a really good indicator or a wide.pelvis also, younger does can be deceiving since they are growing and actually have smaller pelvises than what the hook/pins show. Its all about development.


----------



## ogfabby (Jan 3, 2013)

My buck generally throws 7-8 lb kids. The Last buck I used generally threw 9-10lb kids. I strongly believe it is genetics over diet that influences birth weights. This is another record I keep. The buck with lower birth weights actually has higher weaning weights


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I like my bucks to have relitively small heads, if possible. The heads are the hard part to pop out :laugh:


----------



## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

Possibly. They start to swell up when they die close to term, from what I've read. Maybe they died and she didn't dilate well?
Some does it may just be genetic. :shrug:


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

ThreeHavens said:


> I like my bucks to have relitively small heads, if possible. The heads are the hard part to pop out :laugh:


Shoulders are for the boers! We breed for big front ends and those shoulders always seen to get stuck.

The one kid I've pulled so far had her front legs tangled up then her head was tucked under... it was my second time even watching a kidding and the doe was a first time... oh and I was all on my own. Talk about scary. But it turned out ok


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

A boer breeder that I show with gives her girls Tums a few times a for several days before they kid. For whatever reason it helps them dilate. Her girls need it though, popping out 14lb each, trips this year!


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I think I know who that is. She told me it was for the extra calciun


----------



## mmiller (Apr 3, 2012)

I think the size of the doe when you breed her is going to be a major factor. With my boers I like to breed mine around the year mark IF they are weighting at least 85 to 90 lds. Im trying to think (an someone correct me if Im wrong) dont you want you heifers to weight a certain percentage of their mature weight before you breed them? I think that would work for does as well? It would be interesting to see the results of a study done on that.


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Yep heifers usually have a certain weight depending on breed. Usually you want them to calve on their second birthday. So they would usually be bred at 13 months old.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

ThreeHavens said:


> I like my bucks to have relitively small heads, if possible. The heads are the hard part to pop out :laugh:


Ha. That's been my experience as well. Once you get a head and two front feet out, it's over. I suppose you could argue that huge shoulders are preventing you from getting the whole head and feet out, but, yeah...


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Yes does should be about 80lbs before you breed them. 

And yes, with heifer you want them about 60% of their mature weight before you breed them. Normally heifers are bred at 15 months to calve at 25 months. The gestation in cows is 280 days or 10 months.

Not sure you know what breeder I'm talking about exactly, I'm in northern California, it says your in north Carolina??? Anyway her herd is CnD Boers and I think she said something about the calcium helping.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

CantMiss said:


> I've also used mature bucks all the way down to very young bucks on my does. What I have in mind is breeding younger than average does to increase profitability. Jan/Feb born does are 18 months old by the time I put a buck in with them the following July. If I could breed those same does at 7-8 months old they are becoming profitable earlier and in turn increasing my profitability. Raising goats is not my sole income but we do run it like a business and are always looking for new ways to increase our profits. We like having them around but they have to earn their keep. I know the cattle industry has been around much longer in the US than the goat industry has but it just seems that we are lightyears behind in several aspects.


We breed ours at 8 to 9 months old, as long as they are 80 to 90 lbs by that age. We have not had any kidding problems, I have used several differnt fullblood bloodlines of bucks on them. It is important to not over feed your does. We feed them 3 cups of a 16% pelleted goat feed a day from 2 months of gestation until kidding, prior to that they are getting 2 lbs or 6 cups of pelleted feed a day. Up to 6 months of age my keeper does are on full feed. AFter they kid they are bumped back up to full feed and then bumped down a week before weaning, we wean at 9 weeks of age and then let the young does dry off(about 2 or 3 weeks) and put them back on grain. By the time my young does are just turning 2 they have their second set of kids on the ground. Know we don't show our keeper does so they do run a little thinner because of our breeding schedule. and we only kid out our does one time a year.

We kid out our main herd January/february. Kepper does from Jan/feb are bred in October so they will kid out march/April baking them 14 to 15 months of age. THey are then bred back in July/August with our main herd. We do keep our young does separated as much as possible from the older does since they are on more feed. 
If you are breeding every 7 to 8 months that may be pushing your yearlings really hard and may be pointless to start breeding them that young.

here is an example of a 2 year old doe of mine that just kidded the 2nd time and is now raising her 2nd set of twins. This doe is doing a really good job keepign condition on, In my opinion if the doe can't keep up in the herd she needs to move on. These are meat goats and they are bred to kid at younger ages.

First photo is a just turned 2 year old doe with her 2nd set of twins at about 2 week of age. 
2nd photo is the same doe with her twins up front. Notice the tan/light headed doe in the back, she is 13 months old and has a single buckling on her, The buckling is the very light headed kid in front of her. 
3rd photo is a paint doe, 14 months old, and her buckling.

the only assistance I had to offer,was the light headed doe had a 9 lb buckling and I helped near the end to pull him out. They were on too much pelleted feed and corn, because I had them with some milking does that were on alfalfa hay, corn and pelleted feed.

4th picture is the two above mentioned buckings on the young 13 and 14 month does at 5 weeks of age. Yes, they are singles. I had a lot of singles this year on all my does, not just my first times. We had a really hot summer and we think that may have resulted in lower numbers. But these two are doing great. We will breed back their mom's in August to kid in February.

The buck we used is a Status Quo son, he is a very good sized buck.


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Very nice 20kids!


----------



## mmiller (Apr 3, 2012)

Those does are in very good shape. 20kids that is some very good info you gave. I will have to put it to work for me. Thanks!!


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

thank you, 
I did want to mention that I do think the buck/sire can affect the weight somewhat. I did have a buck that throw bigger kids, I did use him with soem yearlings and they did okay, the older does would have 10 to 12 pound kids from him. With pasture only and 1 lb of grain the last month of gestation. I try to keep my kidding weights down to 7 to 9lbs. But we have had years, that our average birthing weights were 9 to 11 lbs. I would rather my kids grow fast after they are born. And they will. Our runt buckling last year at 6 lbs was 95 lbs by the fair as a wether at just 5 1/2 months of age. They don't all grow that well, but to me it just shows that you don't need 12 lb birth weights to have good growers. 

Thank you for the compliments. I do find photos do add a little weight, but I did want to share that it is possible to kid them out at younger ages and still keep them in reasonably good shape. I personally don't feel your brood herd needs to be all round and chubby. I feel they will give you way better production and more years of production a little on the thin side, Or at least not over conditioned. The only reason to keep them that chubby in my opinion is if you show them. It is very hard on them to be in show condition. Just follow along on some fullblood forums and see how often pregnancy toxemia is mentioned or how young htey are loosing some of their show goats and show bucks. 

Okay that was off subject.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Great looking kids. And the dams look fine.

I would breed at 12 months of age, but that is usually in February or March and females aren't in heat that time of year at my farm, so I breed them in the fall when they normally start coming in. I don't think 80-90 lbs is big enough. My doelings can be that big at 6-7 months or even earlier. I had a bad experience breeding a 105 lb doeling that was 7 months old. I just don't push it anymore. I'm not in that big a hurry. Even though that's how I do things... I think the number one reason for difficult kiddings in Boer goats is "too fat". Also, I had better luck this year when I paid more attention to calcium/phosphorus ratio, copper and selenium.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> Great looking kids. And the dams look fine.
> 
> I would breed at 12 months of age, but that is usually in February or March and females aren't in heat that time of year at my farm, so I breed them in the fall when they normally start coming in. I don't think 80-90 lbs is big enough. My doelings can be that big at 6-7 months or even earlier. I had a bad experience breeding a 105 lb doeling that was 7 months old. I just don't push it anymore. I'm not in that big a hurry. Even though that's how I do things... I think the number one reason for difficult kiddings in Boer goats is "too fat". Also, I had better luck this year when I paid more attention to calcium/phosphorus ratio, copper and selenium.


Not arguing with you, so please don't take it like that. I always enjoy reading everyones methods. But in my opinon every know and then you will get one that is going to have problems, wether it is her first time at 12 months old or her first time at 3 years old. For example: We had a doe that kidded for the first time at the age of 26 months, she labored for a long time and then we went in, we had a heck of a time getting the kids out, triplets. All tangled up, two were deformed. We saved one of them. We bred her again the next year and the same darn thing, That time we managed to save 2 out of the 3. We decided to try one more year, not sure why we expected the outcome to be any different. She was carrying triplet bucks weighing 11 to 12 lbs each for her 3rd kidding, she was on pasture/hay and only 1 lb of grain her last 4 weeks of gestation. We struggled to get the kids out. We managed to save one. She appeared to have some kind of ledge on her cervix leading to her birth canal that would trap the kids behind it. We had one heck of a time and we are very experience with livestock(several species). Point being it would not have mattered if this doe was 5 years or 12months. Sometimes things aren't just quite right. 
On a side note: I would really prefer breeding them right at 12 months to kid at 17months. That would be ideal in my opinion. But that is bad timing for our farm. We have done both ways over the years, waited until the following fall, putting them almost 2 by the time they kid and breeding them to kid late spring when they are just turning 14 or 15 months. I have honestly found no difference in kidding success and mothering ability. It does make the does look a little rougher going into their 2nd year, but hey catch up by the time they are turning 3 years old.


----------



## CantMiss (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks for all the response, especially 20kids.


----------

