# Color Genetics - What’s My Goat?



## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Do you have a goat that has you stumped on what to call their color? Curious what patterns your goat will throw? Maybe you just want a second opinion? This is the thread for all color genetic questions pertaining to a specific goat you want to know more about.  Anyone can ask or answer questions!

Here are some recommendations to get you the most accurate responses!

1) Please state the suspected or known breed(s) of the goat in question.

2) Try your best to get clear pictures, preferably from the side. Some patterns vary by small details, so the entire animal should be visible.

Here’s an example:









If you have baby pictures, they could be helpful as some patterns can change with age. Keep in mind that in some cases (such as combination patterns), clear pictures of both sire and dam may be needed.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco - I made a new thread.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Hey I like this dam paint 100% Boer
Sire 100 % Boer
Who carries the dapple trait?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Moers kiko boars - Either parents could be hiding a spot somewhere! It can hide in the white easily. Nonetheless, someone is spotted.

A few questions! Has either parent thrown spots before bred to a non-spotted goat? Do you have pictures of the doelings’ maternal and paternal grandparents? Do you have registration paperwork for either parent for me to do some research on?

Love that flashy girl! How beautiful!


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Well I could put a few pages worth of pictures on here but I'll start one at a time.

This doeling was just born 2 days ago. I've never had a kid with her pattern before. No one is registered so dam and sire pictures is all I have.

















Here is her dam. (She's all black she's just dirty in the pictures)

















Here is her sire


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco first of all… ADORABLE.

Your little doe definitely looks Bezoar, just like her sire! Bucks usually get more black as they age (most likely due to testosterone). She is likely carrying “Black and Tan” (edit: changed from Sundgau) which is her dam’s visible pattern or black (aka “no pattern”).

I will note that Bezoar looks very similar to the Buckskin/Chamoisee combination pattern. So if the dam to your doeling happened to be a Buckskin at birth, and the cape extended, she could look like a “Black and Tan” (edit: changed from Sundgau) in disguise.  Then your doeling could potentially be combo rather than Bezoar. Happen to have baby pictures of mom?


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Rancho Draco first of all… ADORABLE.
> 
> Your little doe definitely looks Bezoar, just like her sire! Bucks usually get more black as they age (most likely due to testosterone). She is likely carrying Sundgau (her dam’s visible pattern) or black (aka “no pattern”).
> 
> I will note that Bezoar looks very similar to the Buckskin/Chamoisee combination pattern. So if the dam to your doeling happened to be a Buckskin at birth, and the cape extended, she could look like a Sundgau in disguise.  Then your doeling could potentially be combo rather than Bezoar. Happen to have baby pictures of mom?


I do not. I just got her in September. I do know that she will be 5 years old later this spring so she has had plenty of time to darken with age. This doeling is one of three. Would it potentially help to see her siblings?

That's interesting to know that the sire was Bezoar. I always assumed he was buckskin. I have pictures of this guy from 5 months of age to 1 1/2 years old but since he's not the one in question I don't think that would help. 

I know nothing about the color genetics in my herd so I have much more to come lol. I forgot to mention that all my goats are Kinders which are composed of Pygmies and Nubians so really anything goes color-wise.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco so what makes kinders tricky is that Bezoar is very common in Nubians, but the Buckskin/Chamoisee combos are more common with Nigerians… but they can look nearly identical.

Technically, the sire could be a Buckskin/Chamoisee. He’s definitely that or Bezoar!

I would love to see her siblings! That would definitely help!


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Alright here are her brothers. This first little guy is almost entirely black. Besides the facial markings, he has one small white spot lower down on his side and one white toe.










The brown kid is her other brother. I can get some better pictures of him if you need. He has a lot of white down his front legs and I think that these pictures are accurate in that he has a lighter colored belly. I will check when I go outside. I just had my three does kid in three days so I will admit that color wasn't something I've been paying much attention to. I have had interesting colors though so you will probably get to see them all lol.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Here is my 2 year old Nigerian doe. I don’t have baby pics of her. I’ve been wondering ever since I got her what her color/pattern would be called. She also looked different in the summer. Like more light brown. 








This is her back in April. Her mom looked just like her and I don’t have sire or full sibling pics. 








This is her back in June when she looked more like a light brown.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco Excellent! This helps a ton! By seeing a black brother, we know that both your doe and buck are carrying the “no pattern” allele which is the most recessive.

Therefore, the sire is definitely Bezoar carrying No Pattern. Dam is most likely “Black and Tan” (edit: changed from Sundgau) carrying No Pattern.

That means your red buckling and doeling are both Bezoar!

Gee. This is fun!


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Like Rancho Draco I’m gonna have lots more pics of other goats I would like to know patterns of. I usually just say “the brown and white one” “the tan one” “the dark brown one”.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@KY Goat Girl No problem at all. Come one, come all! This is a fantastic way for us to learn. I would love to help you out!


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## TripleShareNubians (Nov 5, 2021)

So what would you call this doelong. I'm constantly catching her in the afternoon so there's more red visible in her coat or it looks redder and these photos then in reality she does have red tinting but she almost looks like a champagne color a lot of the time too. Her mother is a solid maroon doe with black trim. The sire is brown with black trim out of a black dnd my good buck Boon who is tricolored brown with white belt and black trim.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@TripleShareNubians she looks Bezoar as well. Do you have pictures of her parents?


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

This is an awesome idea! 

These girls are twins. They are Nigerian Dwarfs. First up is Buttercup. I was told she would be considered strawberry roan is she was a horse. Not sure if that’s the same for a goat….









Next is Snowflake. I have no idea what she is lol. Please excuse her coat. She has had some mineral deficiencies.








Unfortunately, I have no pictures of either parent. Thanks so much!


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## TripleShareNubians (Nov 5, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @TripleShareNubians she looks Bezoar as well. Do you have pictures of her parents?


Yes. Here's the dam not in milk, and The sire.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @KY Goat Girl No problem at all. Come one, come all! This is a fantastic way for us to learn. I would love to help you out!


I posted my goat right after the pics of Rancho Draco’s goats.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Goatastic43 Oh now those two are very tricky with the roaning and extensive white.

Clearly we have some leg striping, light coloring on her rear thighs, and a light belly on Buttercup. Her body looks red with white roaning on top. Could be a Bezoar with roaning or a Buckskin/Chamoisee combo with roaning. 

For Snowflake, she is even more complicated as her white patterns cover up most all of her pattern.

To know for certain, have they had any kids? If so, do you have pictures of what they were bred to and what the kids looked like? That will give us so many more clues!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@TripleShareNubians Exactly what I wanted to see! Both parents are Bezoar! She is too. She’s just a much lighter version of both parents.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@KY Goat Girl Oh my gosh, I am so sorry I missed it! She looks exactly like a Chamoisee in the last picture. I would say that her winter coat allows more black to shine through. You’ll probably find that she will change back to her summer color! Keep me updated on her when the seasons change. She is very interesting!


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Here's a super flattering picture of my doe Serenity. She has some very faint, small orange eyebrows. Would she also be a Sundgau (did I spell that right?) but with extensive black or is she something else entirely? All my does had one black kid (all were boys) this year so everyone has recessive black. 
















Here are her twin boys from this year. All my does are bred to the same buck who I posted pictures of earlier. The one with a white poll is also a roan. I'll post my third doe with her kids next but I wanted to add here that I have gotten roaned kids from this doe and my brown doe. Is that coming from my buck?


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

This is fun! I really appreciate you putting this together @CountyLineAcres ! I don't know much at all about goat colors or heritability, so it's usually a fun surprise at kidding time. As when this lovely blue buckling was born, shown here with his brother. 








Here are their parents 
Sire








Dam








I don't breed for color. Pretty much everything else has a higher priority. And I've since sold the buck who produced that blue kid. BUT I do still have the doe, and I kinda always wonder if I could get another kid like that one day.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @KY Goat Girl Oh my gosh, I am so sorry I missed it! She looks exactly like a Chamoisee in the last picture. I would say that her winter coat allows more black to shine through. You’ll probably find that she will change back to her summer color! Keep me updated on her when the seasons change. She is very interesting!


I’ve thought she was a Chamoisee but I want sure once she got darker. 








This is her buckling. I don’t have any good recent pics of him. I thought he could definitely be a Chamoisee but with the way she changed I wasn’t sure. He still looks exactly the same as when he was newborn. Dark chocolate with black highlights. 








The buck she was bred to when she had the buckling. (Ignore his terrible shave job. It was very hot out and he had so much hair I decided to shorten it a little but I didn’t have a guard for the trimmers.)


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I hope we aren't flooding you with all these pictures! This sure is a popular subject.
I have sort of a mystery with my goats colors that maybe you could help shed some light on. I'm trying to figure out two things.
First question: Is the marking on my buck, Phantom's face considered a "spot" or is it something else? His registration says "Black with irregular white facial markings, standard white markings". He also does have a white spot on both of his sides. His father was black with white spots and his mother was not spotted.









Second question: Last year my doe Bella, who is 100% black was bred to Phantom and produced two moon spotted kids. That was a total suprise as I thought neither of the parents had moon spots. I would be interested to know who you think the trait came from. This year Bella was bred to a different buck (Phantom's non-spotted full brother) and none of the kids were moon spotted.
Here's Murphy a few months ago. When she was younger her spots were brown:









Now interestingly, a while ago I dug up this picture of Bella's Granddam, who at the time I thought was just white spotted, but maybe those are actually moon spots.









Are the spotted genes such that maybe Bella has the genes, but isn't expressing them, but when she is bred to a spotted buck, then they express in her kids?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco She’s precious. And you are 100% correct! The eyebrows, light throat, light belly, and leg stripes are all indications of a “Black and Tan” (edit: changed from Sundgau). 

By roan, are you referring to the frosted ears and muzzle? If so, that’s coming only from the dams, as it is a dominant trait. If not, I’d love to see more pictures of what you’re referring to! 
___


@Cedarwinds Farm Awe, thank you so much! I am so excited for us to all learn together. I would study genetics for a profession if I could! Your goats are beautiful. Don’t you love getting a flashy kid you never expected?

Looks like the pretty roaning is coming from both parents, so you can certainly get it again! The reddish buckling looks to me like a heavily roaned Bezoar. The blue buckling appears to be a heavily roaned “Black and Tan” (edit: changed from Sundgau).

Sire and dam look to both be Bezoar with roaning like their son. At least one is carrying “Black and Tan”. The other would be carrying “Black and Tan” OR “No Pattern” (aka Black) in order to get the blue looking brother. 
___


@KY Goat Girl You were right. Both her and her son are Chams. I can’t blame you though. The darkening can be jarring lol. Especially when you look at old pictures!

Not sure if you know what the sire is, but with only being able to see 20% of his base pattern under that white, I would say he is a Cham as well.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

No. The frosted ears and nose I do not consider to be roaning. I mean actual white hairs interspersed in the coat. 

Here is Serenity's roaned boy. Not sure if it comes through in the picture or not. I've only ever had lightly roaned kids. Nothing that makes the goat look almost silver.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

[QUOTE="CountyLineAcres, post: 2595985, member: 19219”]
@KY Goat Girl You were right. Both her and her son are Chams. I can’t blame you though. The darkening can be jarring lol. Especially when you look at old pictures!

Not sure if you know what the sire is, but with only being able to see 20% of his base pattern under that white, I would say he is a Cham as well. [/QUOTE]

Wow! I would never have thought of Domino as a Cham also! I just asked the lady I got him from for some pics of him when he was younger. I had him for about 5 months but don’t have any good pics of him to be able to see much of his coloring/pattern. 
This is so much fun! I didn’t know goat colors could be so much fun! Sometimes I feel like I learn more on TGS in one day then I do in school in one week.  I’m sure that’s not true but things I enjoy stick with me better.


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> To know for certain, have they had any kids? If so, do you have pictures of what they were bred to and what the kids looked like? That will give us so many more clues!


We’re keeping you busy @CountyLineAcres!  Here is a few pictures of Buttercup’s kids























And Snowflake’s kids…. I have no idea how she had a brown and white buckskin girl, since neither parents have any brown (mostly white). Maybe it was just in the line somewhere 🤷‍♀️

















Here is the father of all the kids









I appreciate the input!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@MellonFriend Never too many! I am so glad everyone is happy to post, share, and ask questions!

Oh these questions are super interesting… this is going to go a bit in depth. So bare with me! You are definitely on the right track.

1) Yes, I would certainly consider that a large white spot on his face since his sire is spotted. It could be a funky spot that found his way onto his face. Very, very cool.

2) Now, this is where it gets interesting. As you know, in order to have moonspots, you must have a moonspotted parent. In order to have white spots, you must have a white spotted parent. Additionally, from research and experience, moonspots and white spots seem to not be able to coexist. Why? I am not entirely sure yet. 

White spots and Moonspots can pass just by the smallest of hairs, but they must have them. It is believed to be a normal dominant trait, so it must be expressed when carried. It cannot hide like recessives can. 

Now question for you, was Phantom born with a bright white spot on his face? As I’m sure you know, Moonspots can be pretty light, but they can never be truly white. Just want to make sure Phantom is ruled out as the culprit lol.

3) Bella’s granddam certainly does make me wonder about her “spots”. I would agree with you that those could be moonspots that have lightened to an off-white. Could Bella’s parents have had any spots?

With all of these things considered, I would put my money on Bella being moonspotted with just a few hidden hairs. If Phantom’s spot is truly white, he shouldn’t be able to throw the gene. 

Now, it is estimated to be roughly a 50% chance per kid to have spots when breeding a spotted goat to a nonspotted goat (this goes for white spots and moonspots). Therefore, it would be a 25% chance to have two nonspotted kids from Phantom’s brother X Bella. If you bred them again, you should have a statistically better chance to get spotted kids. Technically, Phantom shouldn’t have an influence on a higher occurrence of moonspots, since he doesn’t carry the gene. However, maybe moonspots are a white spot modifier. I’ll have to dig into more research!

I hope that helps at least a little!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco Thank you for the closer picture! I did see that the first dam you posted had some white hairs on her tail? I also noticed your buck seemed to be a little lighter on the middle of his body. Does he have any roaning there? I think it would be easily hidden on your buck. Any close up picture of his coat? It is certainly coming from someone! Just have to figure out who.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Here is my third doe. Is she also a Bezoar?


















Here are her kids from this year. Poor girl had quads. 
This little guy is black with some very light roaning. It's light enough that it really doesn't show up in a picture. Might be able to see a few white hairs on his shoulder.










I'm assuming these three girls are all Bezoar?

























Also one of the doelings has this spot on her back. The dam has a break in her dorsal stripe and I've seen breaks in dorsal stripes on kids from my doe Serenity as well but this doesn't look the same. Is this a moonspot or something else?










This is what I mean by a break in the dorsal stripe.


















And just to round out my novel here, here is her doeling from last year. Same sire as this year's kids. Is she another bezoar? 










I swear now I'm done with pictures! I've shown you the whole herd lol.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Rancho Draco Thank you for the closer picture! I did see that the first dam you posted had some white hairs on her tail? I also noticed your buck seemed to be a little lighter on the middle of his body. Does he have any roaning there? I think it would be easily hidden on your buck. Any close up picture of his coat? It is certainly coming from someone! Just have to figure out who.


She actually does not. That picture is from a cold morning and she had some frost on her tail. Her black in uninterrupted.

I think he may have been roaned. I just wasn't sure if it was actually roaning since none of it was in his cape (is it still technically a cape in the bezoar pattern?). I'll see if I have a picture but I do think he was roaned. My brown doe had a roan buckling last year that looked a lot like the sire.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@KY Goat Girl I understand! When you enjoy it, it doesn’t feel like work. ️ I am glad Domino surprised you! Pictures of his parents could help us verify, but he is definitely giving all signs that he is a Cham.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @KY Goat Girl I understand! When you enjoy it, it doesn’t feel like work. ️ I am glad Domino surprised you! Pictures of his parents could help us verify, but he is definitely giving all signs that he is a Cham.


I texted the lady we got him from but she hasn’t answered so I think it’s a little too late tonight to hear from her till tomorrow. I can show you pics of his other 3 kids we have.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Rancho Draco She’s precious. And you are 100% correct! The eyebrows, light throat, light belly, and leg stripes are all indications of a Sundgau. They are also called “Black and Tans” so if you hear that term, it is also correct.


I'm going to correct you here. Black and Tan and Sundgau are 2 completely different alleles. 
Black and Tan have brown eyebrows- sometimes so dark they can't be seen, triangle underchin, legs with black circle under hock joints and black stripe on front of front legs. 

Sundgau has facial stripes, headspot, no black rings, and the white or tan continues up to under the tail and around, like a deer butt.

You can't breed one out of the other, believe me, I've tried. 
Your hypothesis on the patterning Gene's is off as well but, I need to medicate my pup.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Here is the sire.








Here is a baby pic of the sire.








Here is the roan buckling from last year.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Rancho Draco said:


> Here is my third doe. Is she also a Bezoar?


Yes she is! You sure have a lot of them now!



Rancho Draco said:


> I'm assuming these three girls are all Bezoar?


You would be correct! As long as none of them have black bellies.



Rancho Draco said:


> Also one of the doelings has this spot on her back. The dam has a break in her dorsal stripe and I've seen breaks in dorsal stripes on kids from my doe Serenity as well but this doesn't look the same. Is this a moonspot or something else?


That’s a tough one, I would say it could just be a weird error with the pheomelanin on her coat if the dam nor sire have history of moonspots. If one of the parents does have a parent or grandparent with moonspots, then it could certainly be possible. You may just have to keep her and breed her to find out! 😏



Rancho Draco said:


> And just to round out my novel here, here is her doeling from last year. Same sire as this year's kids. Is she another bezoar?


Look at that face! Yes, I would say she also looks like a Bezoar as well. ☺



Rancho Draco said:


> I think he may have been roaned. I just wasn't sure if it was actually roaning since none of it was in his cape (is it still technically a cape in the bezoar pattern?). I'll see if I have a picture but I do think he was roaned. My brown doe had a roan buckling last year that looked a lot like the sire.


Bezoars do not have capes, mostly just Buckskins! I would say if he has some white hairs floating around, then he is certainly the culprit. He is sneaky sneaky lol.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

This is so extremely helpful. Thanks so much!


CountyLineAcres said:


> 2) In order to have white spots, you must have a white spotted parent. Additionally, from research and experience, moonspots and white spots seem to not be able to coexist. Why? I am not entirely sure yet.


Now this is extraordinary that you say this because Murphy absolutely has moon spots _and_ white spots. I'll have to see if I can find a picture of her right side. It's much less unusual so I like to get pictures of her "good side". 😋
Here's one although it's not very good. You can see one on her on her elbow there. You can also see that her moon spots were much darker when she was a baby.











CountyLineAcres said:


> Now question for you, was Phantom born with a bright white spot on his face? As I’m sure you know, Moonspots can be pretty light, but they can never be truly white. Just want to make sure Phantom is ruled out as the culprit lol.


It did grow as he got older! What does that make you think?



CountyLineAcres said:


> Could Bella’s parents have had any spots?


I don't think so. I saw them both in person, and I don't recall any spots.



CountyLineAcres said:


> Therefore, it would be a 25% chance to have two nonspotted kids from Phantom’s brother X Bella. If you bred them again, you should have a statistically better chance to get spotted kids.


Statistically speaking would it make a difference for you to know that the first time Bella kidded (bred to Phantom) she had twins, both spotted and the second time (Bred to Cullen, the non spotted brother) she had quads all of whom were spotless?

I also forgot to mention that my doe Prim (who is not spotted) last year when she was bred to Phantom, had no spotted kids, this year she was bred to Cullen and one of her kids has exactly one spot on her side and one spot on the top of her tail. Not sure if that has any bearing on anything.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Keep in mind that a moonspot can be 3 discolored hairs and still pass the genetics. Inhibitors can change genetic expression.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Here are the other three kids I have that are sired by Domino. 
















Heath. I noticed he has the same black ring around his neck as Rancho Draco’s buck. 
















These last two are the girls. The one on top I noticed is also slightly starting to get that black ring around her neck. 
All three of these goats are full siblings. 








The mom of the three I just posted and the first Cham I was asking about.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Ok @CountyLineAcres ...this has got me really checking my does. The Sire is Thunderbolt, same father to Roan Ponies kids. Also bred Stormy. Stormy is Trad doe 100% boer. I took pictures of her & her twins. She has a white spot,on the back of her head.The doeling has one spot on her neck, in the backof her neck. Is that a dapple allele With 1 spot?


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Also I bred a Kiko x boer with Thunderbolt. What color is this doeling?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

goathiker said:


> I'm going to correct you here. Black and Tan and Sundgau are 2 completely different alleles.
> Black and Tan have brown eyebrows- sometimes so dark they can't be seen, triangle underchin, legs with black circle under hock joints and black stripe on front of front legs.
> 
> Sundgau has facial stripes, headspot, no black rings, and the white or tan continues up to under the tail and around, like a deer butt.
> ...


It sounds like you’re describing the Sundgau as the Swiss Marked (aka Toggenburg) pattern unless you’re referring to the Eyebar allele? I know there’s a lot of drama in regards to the terminology. It will depend on who you ask. If going off of Dr. Sponenberg, it is Swiss, Black and Tan, and Eyebar being three separate alleles.

You’ll have to elaborate on “patterning gene”.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

MellonFriend said:


> This is so extremely helpful. Thanks so much!
> 
> Now this is extraordinary that you say this because Murphy absolutely has moon spots _and_ white spots. I'll have to see if I can find a picture of her right side. It's much less unusual so I like to get pictures of her "good side". 😋
> Here's one although it's not very good. You can see one on her on her elbow there. You can also see that her moon spots were much darker when she was a baby.


I personally still view that as a moonspot because it isn’t bright white. Some moonspots are so light. You’ll have to get more pictures to convince me! Lol




MellonFriend said:


> Statistically speaking would it make a difference for you to know that the first time Bella kidded (bred to Phantom) she had twins, both spotted and the second time (Bred to Cullen, the non spotted brother) she had quads all of whom were spotless?


It is so hard to say! I think you’ll have to keep breeding and let me know what she has next time. We need more data collected lol. 😂 The most boring part about learning!



MellonFriend said:


> I also forgot to mention that my doe Prim (who is not spotted) last year when she was bred to Phantom, had no spotted kids, this year she was bred to Cullen and one of her kids has exactly one spot on her side and one spot on the top of her tail. Not sure if that has any bearing on anything.


That could tell us that Cullen could be hiding a few hairs somewhere… hmm. Cullen is on the suspicious list. 😂


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

CountyLineAcres said:


> I personally still view that as a moonspot because it isn’t bright white. Some moonspots are so light. You’ll have to get more pictures to convince me! Lol


Alright I'll try to get some more evidence that Murphy is bicolor spotted. 😜 It's going to be harder to convince you now because her most of her spots have silvered out. I'll see what I can do! I'm ready to be proven wrong!

Next year I'll be breeding Bella to Phantom again and I'm up in the air on who to breed Prim to, but I'll let you know what colors I get next year! (if this thread is still going) .


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@KY Goat Girl I am still thinking Cham on all of them! I think you’re breeding Cham X Cham and getting a plethora of Cham lol.



@Moers kiko boars Any white spots on a traditional’s head can definitely be a sign of the spotted gene. You need to send me Thunderbolt’s pedigree! I must get to the bottom of this. He seems to be a common denominator lol. Because the clearly flashy spotted traditional is Thunderbolt X Roan Pony, right? Heck, send me Roan Pony’s pedigree too. I need to spend some time on the ABGA website anyways. 

Oh man. You know… Boer crosses like to baffle me. I would say that Stormy’s daughter is either a very weird shade of pheomelanin and is the pattern “Gold” 

OR

is instead homozygous “No Pattern” (aka Black) but has a black modifier that changed her to a light chocolate. How similar in color would you say she looks to a light toggenburg? They’re a muted, mousy brown like her.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

MellonFriend said:


> Alright I'll try to get some more evidence that Murphy is bicolor spotted.  It's going to be harder to convince you now because her most of her spots have silvered out. I'll see what I can do! I'm ready to be proven wrong!
> 
> Next year I'll be breeding Bella to Phantom again and I'm up in the air on who to breed Prim to, but I'll let you know what colors I get next year! (if this thread is still going) .


Yes!
You better! Even if this thread is dead, feel free to revive it. Because curious minds want to know!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Swiss marked don't have a colored belly except around the udder. They have a white udder. 
Sundgau have a full marked belly and black udder. 
Part of the issue is that you're trying to fit African goats into swiss goat standard or vis versa. 
Black and tan is passed from Nubian goats. Sundgau is from Alpine goats. Every color at one time was a different breed bred by exclusive farms. They didn't mix the color traits. 
There are so many Nigerian goats that they've bred everything lol. A whole bunch of them got ousted with DNA testing though. 

Patterns, yes, I'll get into that tomorrow depending upon my parvo pup.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Swiss marked don't have a colored belly except around the udder. They have a white udder.
> Sundgau have a full marked belly and black udder.
> Part of the issue is that you're trying to fit African goats into swiss goat standard or vis versa.
> Black and tan is passed from Nubian goats. Sundgau is from Alpine goats. Every color at one time was a different breed bred by exclusive farms. They didn't mix the color traits.
> ...


So which Sponenberg gene have Alpine breeders renamed Sundgau? There’s no allele with solid light legs and a light belly unless it’s a combination, so the only allele left would be Eyebar which has leg stripes. Is this what you’re referring to?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Spoonenburg documented African goats.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @KY Goat Girl I am still thinking Cham on all of them! I think you’re breeding Cham X Cham and getting a plethora of Cham Lol


Wow! I didn’t even know I was doing it! I’m hoping to get some other patterns in my herd soon. I didn’t even know I had Chamoisee. Actually, I’m not sure if I was even sure what I had. 🤣 
I would really like to get a buckskin to add to my herd.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Spoonenburg documented African goats.


He documented Swiss breeds as well.

I have no problem using the term Sundgau for Eyebar - striped face, striped legs, and light belly.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

KY Goat Girl said:


> Wow! I didn’t even know I was doing it! I’m hoping to get some other patterns in my herd soon. I didn’t even know I had Chamoisee. Actually, I’m not sure if I was even sure what I had. 🤣
> I would really like to get a buckskin to add to my herd.


I think Chams are so pretty! Get a Buckskin and then cross with your Chams to get combos to confuse everyone LOL.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Just learned some really cool from Domino’s owner before me! Domino was out of quads. I knew this much already. His sire was Swiss and his dam was a Cham. One of his brothers is a Cham, his sister was a Swiss and the other buckling didn’t make it. 








This is the only pic she has of him. I didn’t ask for his dam and sire pics because I don’t think she has them anyway. She bought him and his brother as bottle babies. Also, ignore the name on the pic. I renamed him Domino.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

I’m having too much fun with this!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@KY Goat Girl that is amazing! He is officially Cham under all that white. How amazing is that? They’re usually impossible to tell!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Goatastic43 Don’t think I forgot about you! I will be using a pen and paper for your ladies in the morning lol. They need some extra brainpower that I do not have at this hour


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Okay I'm a bit confused on the whole Nubian color names and the semantics of black and tan vs sundgau. What color standard do they go by as far as defining patterns? Kinders do not have a color standard and the color standard for Pygmies is pretty minimal according to this page I found on the breeders website. I assume then that the best color comparison would be to align with the Nubian definition of patterns but I don't know if there is one. I know that the breed can be any color but is there a set way to describe their patterns?









RESOURCES | NPGA | Pygmy Goats







npga-pygmy.com


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Thank you, @CountyLineAcres! This was a lot of fun and I’m so glad you started a thread for it! I’m kinda thinking about digging up some old Nubian pics for more color fun but I’ll let you finish answering other people and make sure nobody else has any they want to post, then maybe I’ll dig up some old pics.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Yes, this has been very fun but also very educational. I have a hard time grasping color genetics without seeing a lot of real life examples so this is very exciting for me. It's also fun to actually know what patterns I have in the herd.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Yep! Apparently I have 5 Chamoisees and a light tan Nubian with no special markings.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Rancho Draco said:


> Okay I'm a bit confused on the whole Nubian color names and the semantics of black and tan vs sundgau. What color standard do they go by as far as defining patterns? Kinders do not have a color standard and the color standard for Pygmies is pretty minimal according to this page I found on the breeders website. I assume then that the best color comparison would be to align with the Nubian definition of patterns but I don't know if there is one. I know that the breed can be any color but is there a set way to describe their patterns?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get the confusion! It is so complicated because terms are being used for multiple patterns. 

For example, the ADGA defines Sundgau as “black with white markings such as underbody, facial stripes, etc.” The biggest issue with that definition is that the only two alleles that are black with a white underbody are “Black and Tan” or “Eyebar”. Additionally, many Alpine breeders use the term Sundgau for Swiss patterned animals (which have dark bellies and solid light legs). Unfortunately, this creates confusion with using a single term for 3 different alleles.

Of all breeds, Nigerian breeders seem to have the most thorough research done in regards to color genetics, and they use the term Sundgau often to refer to Black and Tan (since both by definition have a light belly). It is my fault that the drama regarding the term totally slipped my mind.

I think to avoid arguments and confusion here, we will refer to the names of these specific patterns given and defined by Dr. Sponenberg. We will use the term Black and Tan in place of Sundgau and disregard the term altogether. 

I hope that helps! Feel free to let me know if I need to clarify anything. Tomorrow, I can share the clear difference of Black and Tan vs Swiss in an illustration.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Okay that helps! I thought that I was seeing three different competing things there so I'm glad I was at least on the right track.

So sundgau can mean a few different things, but according to ADGA is a black and tan. Does this mean then that ADGA does not use the term black and tan but rather uses sundgau for registration? I'm not familiar with the ADGA since Kinders have their own registry.

Also, can swiss marked goats have minimal facial markings? Given that you identified both of my black does as being sundgau, I assume using the definition in line with the ADGA, and they have dramatically different amounts of facial and neck markings, I assume that level is normal within the color. Or would this indicate that the color strain isn't pure but has been mixed with something else? Given the wide variety in the breed, the color probably has been mixed but would the amount of variation be present if the color was pure?

And I'm going to bed now as I've already been up far too long here. I'll check back in the morning. 😴


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Rancho Draco She’s precious. And you are 100% correct! The eyebrows, light throat, light belly, and leg stripes are all indications of a Sundgau. They are also called “Black and Tans” so if you hear that term, it is also correct.
> 
> By roan, are you referring to the frosted ears and muzzle? If so, that’s coming only from the dams, as it is a dominant trait. If not, I’d love to see more pictures of what you’re referring to!
> ___
> ...


Thanks for the response! I belive the buck's father was black...I only ever saw a picture of him. So that may be where the black was coming from.


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## Chanceosunshine (Nov 29, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Rancho Draco Excellent! This helps a ton! By seeing a black brother, we know that both your doe and buck are carrying the “no pattern” allele which is the most recessive.
> 
> Therefore, the sire is definitely Bezoar carrying No Pattern. Dam is most likely Sundgau carrying No Pattern.
> 
> ...


Does "no pattern" just mean a solid coat?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco They essentially label anything with white points and markings as a Sundgau. Genetically, it’s not a sound definition. It’s been adopted by other breeds to mean a single pattern rather several. 

I have seen Swiss with more minimal face markings in the darker variations. However, they still have light ears and a light muzzle (separate from frosted ears and noses). We will call your does Black and Tan, not Sundgau to avoid conflict. 

Feel free to message me if you’d like to discuss this topic in more depth! 

@Cedarwinds Farm That would fit perfectly in with what you’re seeing. Love to see genetics come together!

@Chanceosunshine Yes! “No Pattern” is also called “Black” but since there are modifiers that change the color of black, I sometimes like to use Sponenberg’s term No Pattern. It is honestly whatever you prefer.

If you’re familiar with rabbit genetics, they call this allele “Self”


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco and @Cedarwinds Farm I have edited my answers to you guys from Sundgau to “Black and Tan” to avoid unnecessary conflict. 

If anyone wants examples of Swiss, check out @MellonFriend posts! You can see the light ears, light muzzle, solid light legs, and dark belly.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Okay. Thank you for satisfying my curiosity!

MellonFriend has a whole gaggle of Swiss kids too if you need more examples lol.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> That’s a tough one, I would say it could just be a weird error with the pheomelanin on her coat if the dam nor sire have history of moonspots.


I was remembering this morning that I missed answering this. There is not moonspot history that I know of. The first doe that I posted obviously threw some considerable white on her bezoar bucking and a little bit on her black one but I've never had moonspots. I didn't know that they could have a hiccup in the pheomelanin. My bezoar doeling from last year had a small white spot on her shoulder but it has since disappeared. Would you consider that to be another hiccup that she grew out of and not an actual white spot?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco very likely! I have seen solid red Boers even get really dark brown spots that fade with time. No real explanation for it, but it sure is weird.


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## TripleShareNubians (Nov 5, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @TripleShareNubians Exactly what I wanted to see! Both parents are Bezoar! She is too. She’s just a much lighter version of both parents.


If you don't mind my asking what is bezoar, and what does that mean for kidding colors? In the past she had a black girl, and a red and white buckling.
He is much whiter in the winter time like this photo, but is Edge a buckskin or just a roan?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Rancho Draco said:


> MellonFriend has a whole gaggle of Swiss kids too if you need more examples lol.


It's true. Six out of seven of my kids were swiss this year. 😅


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

TripleShareNubians said:


> If you don't mind my asking what is bezoar, and what does that mean for kidding colors? In the past she had a black girl, and a red and white buckling.
> He is much whiter in the winter time like this photo, but is Edge a buckskin or just a roan?


Bezoar is the Wild Type Agouti pattern. It is the “default” goat color that got its name from the Bezoar Ibex. It is usually characterized by a tan body with a pale belly, face stripes, inner thighs, and legs. There’s usually black trim on the face, ears, legs, sometimes the border of the light belly, and typically a dorsal stripe. Shoulder stripes are also common but appear more in males with age.

Here’s an example (work in progress of a bigger chart) of how it can appear in adult males with heavy expression. You usually will not see this much black on a doe or a young kid.










Here are examples of Bezoar Ibexes:


















___

They’re allowed two alleles per locus. If your doe has thrown solid black, then her two alleles on the Agouti Locus are Bezoar and No Pattern. Therefore, she will throw either the Bezoar allele or the No Pattern allele. 

If the buck she had the solid black kid with is the Bezoar buck you posted, then his two alleles are also Bezoar and No Pattern. This means the two of them bred together will give you only Bezoar or solid black.

Edge also appears to be a Bezoar with some roaning.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

MellonFriend said:


> It's true. Six out of seven of my kids were swiss this year.


Swiss marked goats are beautiful!  What color was your outlier?


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Hi again. This is Queen of hearts. I would like to know her color pattern. These are her first kidds, bred to Thunderbolt. Her dam was Black, her sire was the multicolored Buck on the Horn thread. Is that a moonspot on her ledt shoulder? She is 100% Boer


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

We have pets (no breeding) but what would you call Roger's color?

Here he is in September 2021:










Here he is in March 2019:










Here he is as a kid in spring 2013:


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Rancho Draco very likely! I have seen solid red Boers even get really dark brown spots that fade with time. No real explanation for it, but it sure is weird.


That is very cool! I will have to update on her this summer if she grows out of it. I wish I could keep all these kids until they grow in their adult coat to see how they change. I need a hay field so I don't have to buy hay...


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Swiss marked goats are beautiful!  What color was your outlier?


I actually counted wrong 🙃. Very wrong actually. 😅 I think I was thinking about the fact that six out of seven total are black, one is brown. And one out of a litter of four is not swiss marked (he's all black with a white poll). I have so many kids I can't keep them straight. 😜


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## Turtle_Cove (11 mo ago)

I was suggested this thread on my post. I have a silver Nigerian Dwarf buckling that is registered as having moonspots. Only spot I see is a darker silver and I can't find any solid answer on if that's possible and if it could in fact be a moonspot or some strange shading.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

[mention]CountyLineAcres [/mention]


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## Emrcornerranch (Jun 13, 2020)

How about Shamrock? I've always wondered how to describe about her pretty red brown on her face and back half. I thought she was buckskin, but she has a mostly solid black doeling that made me think her base coat is actually black.. Third picture includes her daughters.























And what would you technically call Blizzard and Pumpkin below? Is Blizzard a black goat with white roan?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Goatastic43 Wow. I have been looking and looking at your goats trying to break their code lol. 

Let’s start with Snowflake. Her two kids look buckskin. The chocolate buckskin is a bit confusing, since I don’t see chocolate on her sire nor dam. One of them would have to be chocolate. The sire looks buckskin under all that roaning, however. I honestly cannot tell what Snowflake is under all that white. In order for her to have Buckskin kids bred to a Buckskin buck would mean she is likely carrying a more recessive allele (such as “No Pattern”).

As for Buttercup, her legs are screaming caramel. However, they usually have some sort of black under their belly even if it’s minimal. It could perfectly explain why her kids look nearly gold. They could be Buckskin/Caramel combos which usually have very minimal markings.

What color are the markings on Buttercup kid’s forehead? They look chocolate to me. Could mean that the sire is chocolate but too heavily roaned to see it clearly.

All in all… wow. If they didn’t have so much white covering their base pattern, it wouldn’t be such a mystery! Lol. I am curious when/if you get more kids out of them. This is a puzzle I’d love to solve! I am sorry I don’t concrete answers for you _yet_!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@21goaties Oh my Roger is gorgeous! I definitely think he’s a Cou Clair combo. Specifically a Buckskin/Cou Clair combo. 

Any pictures of his parents to verify? Do you have a picture of his face to the side? I want to see if he has the signature Cou Clair cheek swoop.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco yes! Let me know!

@MellonFriend that’ll be me when once these kids hit the ground! 🤣

@Turtle_Cove Welcome! That definitely could be a moonspot. I wouldn’t count it out. Are his parents moonspotted? You will know for certain when you breed him to non-moonspotted does. I would lean towards yes.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Emrcornerranch Beautiful! Shamrock is definitely a signature Buckskin. Her specific type are sometimes called “Dark Buckskins” because the pheomelanin (the tan section) is so dark.

Not sure if you’re asking about her daughters, but it looks from this angle like you have a Chocolate Buckskin and a Solid Black. Therefore, Shamrock’s two alleles would be Buckskin and “No Pattern” (aka Black).

I wouldn’t call Blizzard a roan, but he could definitely be hiding it under all that white! The terminology for Blizzard’s white pattern isn’t quite consistent at this point. Some call it abundant scattered white or excessive white or simply “with white”. Others would call it Dalmatian or Dark Barbari. However, we do know it behaves in a dominant fashion. 

Nonetheless, I would say Blizzard is definitely black. You could call him “black with scattered abundant white”. Pumpkin looks gold from that picture. He could be labeled as “gold with scattered white”. 

It’s unfortunate these white patterns don’t have official terminology among many breeders.


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## Emrcornerranch (Jun 13, 2020)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Emrcornerranch Beautiful! Shamrock is definitely a signature Buckskin. Her specific type are sometimes called “Dark Buckskins” because the pheomelanin (the tan section) is so dark.
> 
> Not sure if you’re asking about her daughters, but it looks from this angle like you have a Chocolate Buckskin and a Solid Black. Therefore, Shamrock’s two alleles would be Buckskin and “No Pattern” (aka Black).
> 
> ...


Thank you so much!


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Goatastic43 Wow. I have been looking and looking at your goats trying to break their code lol.
> 
> Let’s start with Snowflake. Her two kids look buckskin. The chocolate buckskin is a bit confusing, since I don’t see chocolate on her sire nor dam. One of them would have to be chocolate. The sire looks buckskin under all that roaning, however. I honestly cannot tell what Snowflake is under all that white. In order for her to have Buckskin kids bred to a Buckskin buck would mean she is likely carrying a more recessive allele (such as “No Pattern”).
> 
> ...


It’s funny because Snowflake rejected the chocolate girl. Apparently she didn’t think her colors seemed right either! 

Buttercup does have some black on her underbelly. This isn’t a great picture, but she wouldn’t stand still lol.








Here’s a picture of Snowflake in the summer with less fur. Not sure if it helps any….








When Dottie (the chocolate buckskin doeling) was born she looked EXACTLY like our wether Boots. For the longest time I was worried HE was the dad. Obviously he wasn’t, but I was almost convinced since she didn’t look like either of her parents!


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @21goaties Oh my Roger is gorgeous! I definitely think he’s a Cou Clair combo. Specifically a Buckskin/Cou Clair combo.
> 
> Any pictures of his parents to verify? Do you have a picture of his face to the side? I want to see if he has the signature Cou Clair cheek swoop.


I'll have to hunt for pictures of his parents as his mom died shortly after he was weaned and his dad was sold. His mom looked like him and his dad was black with white trimmings. Here are some pictures of his face:


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Goatastic43 Oh perfect! Then Buttercup is definitely Caramel!

Snowflake still puzzles me. I can’t quite pin what she is. I don’t believe she’s Caramel like her sister, since she doesn’t have black on the back of her legs. You’ll have to let me know what other kids you get!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@21goaties Awesome. He definitely looks Cou Blanc (Cou Blanc is a Cou Clair but the different term is used for the lightest pheomelanin). The patterns is also known as Peacock.

I thought he was a combo before, but I do see that he has shading on his rump. Not to be annoying lol, but do you have more pictures of the second half his body too?


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

For any of you who are trying to register ND, there is a big discussion on the ADGA website and forums that explains how to register. Basically any color is acceptable for registration. You go with the base color or pattern and add comments. Other breeds for dairy have specific colors, so you want to investigate the acceptable patterns and verbage used to describe your goat - an is example for alpines is cou claire, cou blanc, etc...


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Well I think I've failed on the prove Murphy has two types of spots. 😅 When she was young it really looked like she had both since most of her spots to start out with were brown or dark grey. But yesterday when I really looked at her, I realized that a lot of those spots I thought were white in my head, have really darkened with her winter coat. You must be right!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

MellonFriend said:


> Well I think I've failed on the prove Murphy has two types of spots.  When she was young it really looked like she had both since most of her spots to start out with were brown or dark grey. But yesterday when I really looked at her, I realized that a lot of those spots I thought were white in my head, have really darkened with her winter coat. You must be right!


Haha it was a recent revelation for me too! I’m not sure what exact relationship moonspots and white spots have, but it is very intriguing!  You will all be the first to know when I find out!


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

Well……if your not already tired of all the questions, I’ll give you a little more job security. 

This is Boots our wether. 



And Dottie (I believe she’s a chocolate buckskin right? Just making sure) Hopefully these are easier than Snowflake! 

































Edit: Ok for some reason the pictures got mixed up. The larger one with more white is Boots.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Goatastic43 Are we sure he doesn’t have a retained testicle of some sort…?  LOL honestly he would make perfect sense as the sire. Makes you wonder.

Yes, she’s definitely a chocolate buckskin. You can tell by her hind end being lighter than the front. Sometimes Buckskins can be mistaken for the Black and Tan pattern with a long enough cape. It’s pretty cool to see the variety imo.

If her sire truly isn’t chocolate, then we might need to take them to Maury lol. It’s dominant over black, so one parent has to have chocolate hairs instead of black. You’ll have to get really close to her dad and make sure he just isn’t a very dark brown lol.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

This thread is so interesting!
Thank you for doing this, @CountyLineAcres !

I have only read this thread, not your education hub one yet, and I got more confused than I was before about sundgau and black and tan.
Would you mind telling me what my wether Coco is? I always thought of him as sundgau.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

My other question is about my buck Sir Jeffrey.
After reading this thread I thought maybe he is bezoar. But he does not have the dorsal stripe and belly outline. My other guess is he is buckskin.



























Here he is as a youngster (it looks like a dorsal stripe there?)












This is his mom on the right .








Thanks


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

[mention]MadHouse [/mention] Sir Jeffery’s beard is awesome!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

KY Goat Girl said:


> [mention]MadHouse [/mention] Sir Jeffery’s beard is awesome!


Thanks!


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @21goaties Awesome. He definitely looks Cou Blanc (Cou Blanc is a Cou Clair but the different term is used for the lightest pheomelanin). The patterns is also known as Peacock.
> 
> I thought he was a combo before, but I do see that he has shading on his rump. Not to be annoying lol, but do you have more pictures of the second half his body too?


Okay cool! Here's some pics of him from May 2021:

I originally took the pics to post here because his fur looked so awful from what I think is copper deficiency. It improved after copper but his coat definitely gets rougher/darker in winter and lightens up/gets softer in summer. That's why it looks different in some pics.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

I just got a picture of Jeffrey’s dad.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@MadHouse Coco would be considered Sundgau by Nigerian breeders but Black and Tan by Alpine breeders. Therefore, it may be best to call him Black and Tan to avoid conflict.  Keep an eye out on the hub for when we go over Agouti patterns! I’ll be making a chart for reference.

Does Jeffery and his sire have black markings or chocolate? Anymore pictures of his sire? Jeffery looks like maybe a buckskin combo. Baby pictures will always be useful for determining patterns! They change so much with age and can lose some important identifiers.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@21goaties Thank you! He looks like a classic Cou Clair/Buckskin combo. Beautiful boy! It’s so pretty to look at.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @MadHouse Coco would be considered Sundgau by Nigerian breeders but Black and Tan by Alpine breeders. Therefore, it may be best to call him Black and Tan to avoid conflict.  Keep an eye out on the hub for when we go over Agouti patterns! I’ll be making a chart for reference.
> 
> Does Jeffery and his sire have black markings or chocolate? Anymore pictures of his sire? Jeffery looks like maybe a buckskin combo. Baby pictures will always be useful for determining patterns! They change so much with age and can lose some important identifiers.


Thank you! I‘ll be studying on your hub next.

Jeffrey’s markings are black. The picture of his sire is the only one I have, other than a 7 second video.





Vimeo







vimeo.com




Here is a baby picture of Jeffrey:








I appreciate you taking the time!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I thought I'd update you on a piece of my sire vs. dam moon spot puzzle. I was perusing the online pedigrees and I found that Phantom's sire is actually listed as black with moon spots! I was so surprised! So maybe Phantom is the donor after all. Only time will tell!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @MadHouse Coco would be considered Sundgau by Nigerian breeders but Black and Tan by Alpine breeders. Therefore, it may be best to call him Black and Tan to avoid conflict.


🤦‍♀️

Alpine breeders would call him a sundgau. They also call swiss marked goats with a black belly sundgau.
They call bezoar chamoisee with light legs.
Black and tan are marked like a doberman, they have spots above their eyes rather than face stripes.

I think the above peacock marked boy would be two toned chamois since his rump is brown. It's a lighter version of cou clair or cou blanc which must have a black rump.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Alpine breeders would call him a sundgau. They also call swiss marked goats with a black belly sundgau.
> They call bezoar chamoisee with light legs.
> Black and tan are marked like a doberman, they have spots above their eyes rather than face stripes.
> 
> I think the above peacock marked boy would be two toned chamois since his rump is brown. It's a lighter version of cou clair or cou blanc which must have a black rump.


I’ve addressed this in previous posts and how it’s problematic calling two different alleles the exact same name. It is also _only_ for “white” pheomelanin according to the Alpine definition, not cream or tan. Hence, I will no longer be using the term Sundgau, as it is not an accurate nor consistent description of a pattern. Eyebar could be a good descriptor, as it is an actual allele.

Two-tone chamoisee doesn’t list the genetics. It’s best to name the actual combinations such as chamoisee/cou clair.


----------



## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

MellonFriend said:


> I thought I'd update you on a piece of my sire vs. dam moon spot puzzle. I was perusing the online pedigrees and I found that Phantom's sire is actually listed as black with moon spots! I was so surprised! So maybe Phantom is the donor after all. Only time will tell!


Very interesting! I’m thinking that face spot could certainly be a light moonspot.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Very interesting! I’m thinking that face spot could certainly be a light moonspot.


I've always been suspicious that it is since it is really more cream than bright white.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

MadHouse said:


> Thank you! I‘ll be studying on your hub next.
> 
> Jeffrey’s markings are black. The picture of his sire is the only one I have, other than a 7 second video.
> 
> ...


Awesome! That helps. I think Jeffery is most likely a Buckskin/Chamoisee combo. His dam is clearly buckskin. Sire looks to be gold, so he can hide any pattern underneath.

You can also see the signature buckskin marking on his leg. Usually, a more dominant pattern will cover the more recessive pattern below it. However, sometimes, the pheomelanin will allow the eumelanin to leak through. Since his buckskin pattern isn’t black like his facial markings, it lets us know the other pattern is tan throughout the body causing that “dilute” effect.

I’ll definitely be addressing this more in depth on the Hub once we get to the topic. I’ll also be using diagrams to help illustrate it.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

MellonFriend said:


> I've always been suspicious that it is since it is really more cream than bright white.


Oh then certainly possible! I love that placement on him. It’s super cool!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Awesome! That helps. I think Jeffery is most likely a Buckskin/Chamoisee combo. His dam is clearly buckskin. Sire looks to be gold, so he can hide any pattern underneath.
> 
> You can also see the signature buckskin marking on his leg. Usually, a more dominant pattern will cover the more recessive pattern below it. However, sometimes, the pheomelanin will allow the eumelanin to leak through. Since his buckskin pattern isn’t black like his facial markings, it lets us know the other pattern is tan throughout the body causing that “dilute” effect.
> 
> I’ll definitely be addressing this more in depth on the Hub once we get to the topic. I’ll also be using diagrams to help illustrate it.


Thanks again!!! 😊


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## Turtle_Cove (11 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Rancho Draco yes! Let me know!
> 
> @MellonFriend that’ll be me when once these kids hit the ground! 🤣
> 
> @Turtle_Cove Welcome! That definitely could be a moonspot. I wouldn’t count it out. Are his parents moonspotted? You will know for certain when you breed him to non-moonspotted does. I would lean towards yes.


Sire has no noticeable moonspots but breeder says he always throws them. Dam has none. None of my girls have any so it'll be interesting to see babies in a couple months! Thanks so much!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Turtle Cove That is awesome! Cannot wait to see what you get.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Hey, @CountyLineAcres! I would really appreciate it if you could please confirm my doe's color. I think she's a light buckskin, but I'm not positive as her color has changed quite a bit as she has matured. Lucy is 75% Nigerian Dwarf and 25% Pygmy. Here's some pictures of Lucy:









































Here's her dam, Tilly (half Pygmy and Nigerian Dwarf) I would appreciate it if you could tell me her color as well: 

















I think it's crazy how much lighter Tilly's coat gets in the winter.









Lucy's sire (Nigerian Dwarf):

















Thanks!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Hi @Dandy Hill Farm!!

Fascinating! What color is Lucy’s twin? Her twin looks black under all that white from what I can tell. Have you bred Tilly any other times? What were the results?


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Hi @Dandy Hill Farm!!
> 
> Fascinating! What color is Lucy’s twin? Her twin looks black under all that white from what I can tell. Have you bred Tilly any other times? What were the results?


Lucy's twin (Titan) had really dark markings when he was born, but as he matured, they got lighter and turned chocolate (only owned him for eight weeks though).


















No, that was Tilly's first kidding. She is currently pregnant now though.

If it helps to know, Tilly's sire was almost solid black (not my picture or goat):









I'm not exactly sure who Tilly's dam is, but I know for sure that it has to be one of these (Pygmy) does (again, not my pictures or goats):


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

My guess would be the top one is Tilly’s dam.  I know you didn’t ask me but that’s the one I would think.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Dandy Hill Farm Awesome! That helps. 

Since Tilly’s side is solid black, she can’t be a combination pattern. My best guess is an extremely, extremely dark Caramel. I personally haven’t seen one with that much black, but her legs are a dead giveaway of the Caramel pattern. Not to mention she’s part Pygmy, and that’s one of the most common patterns. Very neat to see how her coat changes with the season. Those two possible dams are also Caramel; therefore, either could be Tilly’s dam.

Nevertheless, Lucy is either Buckskin carrying No Pattern or is a Buckskin/Caramel combo. I would have said simply light buckskin, but with how much shading is present in Tilly, I can’t rule out the combo. Caramel is suppose to cover Buckskin, but Caramel also isn’t suppose to have that much black lol. I am curious if Tilly’s shading showed up with age, or if she was born super dark.

Please keep me updated on if/when you breed her! I find this family fascinating!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Dandy Hill Farm Awesome! That helps.
> 
> Since Tilly’s side is solid black, she can’t be a combination pattern. My best guess is an extremely, extremely dark Caramel. I personally haven’t seen one with that much black, but her legs are a dead giveaway of the Caramel pattern. Not to mention she’s part Pygmy, and that’s one of the most common patterns. Very neat to see how her coat changes with the season. Those two possible dams are also Caramel; therefore, either could be Tilly’s dam.
> 
> ...


Thanks! That was super helpful! You know, I never even thought of Tilly being a caramel until yesterday when I was making a post on this thread lol. It's nice to know that you think she's a caramel as well.

Here's a picture of Tilly (from her breeder) from when she was younger:








She looks kind of chocolate in that picture, but I think it's just the lighting. If you want, I can find some more pictures of her when she was younger. Just let me know!

Here's a few random pictures of Tilly. The first two are from this winter and the last two are from this past summer.

































Do you think it's more likely that the first doe I posted pictures of is Tilly's dam since she also has white and maybe a belt?

I'll definitely keep you updated on what their kids look like this year! Lucy is due April 28th and Tilly is due May 17th. Both are bred to, Tater my light buckskin ND buck. Well, Tilly was also bred by, Oreo (black and white) lol. It'll be interesting to see their kids!

Oh, I just remembered something, Lucy's sire is my friends buck and my friend has gotten some buckskin (both light and dark) kids from him out of two non-buckskin does (a gold doe, and a black with minimum white doe) . Not sure if that's helpful to know or not. Hahaha.

Thanks again!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Dandy Hill Farm I am so surprised she was so dark. I simple don’t understand why she doesn’t look like every other Caramel out there lol. It is so weird!

The first doe is a possibility, but I wouldn’t could put the second either as a possible dam. Both have white on them, so either could technically be her dam. 

Cannot wait to see what you get!!


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Well this girl is a month old now. I'm thinking that this color patch is a patch of heavy roaning. Thoughts? I'm going to try and get a better close up picture of her. Odd timing on the picture as well, she's not actually hunched up. 












Rancho Draco said:


> Well I could put a few pages worth of pictures on here but I'll start one at a time.
> 
> This doeling was just born 2 days ago. I've never had a kid with her pattern before. No one is registered so dam and sire pictures is all I have.
> 
> ...


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Rancho Draco I think it’s possible! Another theory is that it’s just a weird pheomelanin error. Either way, it looks pretty cool.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

It's really odd. I'm going to be retaining her so we'll see how she changes as she grows.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

I just thought I'd put this out here, as I was so intrigued by the color variety of the kids from this pairing!
Sire








Dam








Their triplet bucklings
























Sire's dam








Sire's sire









I don't know what the dam's sire looked like. Her mother was colored like she is. I just think it's interesting how the kids are all totally different from each other! I figure the black could come from either side...their great grandfather on their sire's side was black.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

[mention]Cedarwinds Farm [/mention] Oh they’re beautiful babies! Looks like the sire is a Bezoar/Swiss combo, and the dam is a Cou Clair/Black combo.

The first kid is Swiss. The second appears to be Cou Clair/Swiss. The third looks to be Bezoar.  Not one kid is the same. This is why I love studying combos! There is so much variety!


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

CountyLineAcres said:


> [mention]Cedarwinds Farm [/mention] Oh they’re beautiful babies! Looks like the sire is a Bezoar/Swiss combo, and the dam is a Cou Clair/Black combo.
> 
> The first kid is Swiss. The second appears to be Cou Clair/Swiss. The third looks to be Bezoar.  Not one kid is the same. This is why I love studying combos! There is so much variety!


Cool! I'm trying to learn here...what is the pattern that results in the white on the belly extending up around the tail? For some reason I was thinking that was Bezoar. It seems to be fairly dominant. I've seen it pop up a lot. Usually combined with the black striping (Swiss markings?) on the face. The black kid is just the opposite of what I usually see, which is brown with black facial markings, and often tan 'eyebrows', whereas he is black with the white markings in those areas.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> Cool! I'm trying to learn here...what is the pattern that results in the white on the belly extending up around the tail? For some reason I was thinking that was Bezoar. It seems to be fairly dominant. I've seen it pop up a lot. Usually combined with the black striping (Swiss markings?) on the face. The black kid is just the opposite of what I usually see, which is brown with black facial markings, and often tan 'eyebrows', whereas he is black with the white markings in those areas.


The only patterns with pheomelanin on the belly and black facial striping are Bezoar and Buckskin. The only pattern with pheomelanin on the belly and pale facial striping is Black and Tan.

The white markings on the Swiss buckling is just a very light shade of pheomelanin. Pheomelanin can range anywhere from nearly white to cream to a deep red and anything in between. 

Black and Tans are extremely similar to Swiss. The main differences is that Black and Tans have a light belly and leg stripes while Swiss has a dark belly (like the rest of the body) and no leg striping. 

Does that help?


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

CountyLineAcres said:


> The only patterns with pheomelanin on the belly and black facial striping are Bezoar and Buckskin. The only pattern with pheomelanin on the belly and pale facial striping is Black and Tan.
> 
> The white markings on the Swiss buckling is just a very light shade of pheomelanin. Pheomelanin can range anywhere from nearly white to cream to a deep red and anything in between.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think that helps! I'm trying to absorb it all. 😅 I appreciate your explanations!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> Yes, I think that helps! I'm trying to absorb it all.  I appreciate your explanations!


I’m hoping to make a chart soon to help! Once this kidding season is over in May, I should have enough time to work on it again.


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Goatastic43 Oh perfect! Then Buttercup is definitely Caramel!
> 
> Snowflake still puzzles me. I can’t quite pin what she is. I don’t believe she’s Caramel like her sister, since she doesn’t have black on the back of her legs. You’ll have to let me know what other kids you get!


A bit of a follow up on Snowflake. I don’t have any kids to show you yet until spring, but she did get shaved today. Does this show you anything new? (Not great pictures, I’ll get more tomorrow)


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Goatastic43 I will say that in most cases, shaving usually doesn’t help, as the pigment along the hair shaft is not consistent. Shaving a goat can make them look like a completely different pattern.

HOWEVER, I am glad you updated me on this because I do notice a line on her back that makes me super suspicious of her being a buckskin. A think a possible theory could be that she is a caramel/buckskin combo. They aren’t common, and it would explain why her legs display very little striping. I believe her coat is giving a “red buckskin” effect which is usually a buckskin/cham combo. The reason why we can’t see face striping is due to her extensive white and roaning.

I still believe the buck she was bred to is a Buckskin or Black and Tan. Nonetheless, Snowflake being a buckskin would further explain the kids she gave you. How fascinating! 

All a big theory, but I think it’s very likely. Especially with her twin sister being Caramel. It’s very plausible for her to be a Caramel/Buckskin combo!!

How exciting!


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Goatastic43 I will say that in most cases, shaving usually doesn’t help, as the pigment along the hair shaft is not consistent. Shaving a goat can make them look like a completely different pattern.
> 
> HOWEVER, I am glad you updated me on this because I do notice a line on her back that makes me super suspicious of her being a buckskin. A think a possible theory could be that she is a caramel/buckskin combo. They aren’t common, and it would explain why her legs display very little striping. I believe her coat is giving a “red buckskin” effect which is usually a buckskin/cham combo. The reason why we can’t see face striping is due to her extensive white and roaning.
> 
> ...


Wow! That’s super interesting! I didn’t know they could be two things at once lol! I’m really excited to see more of her kids now!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @Dandy Hill Farm Awesome! That helps.
> 
> Since Tilly’s side is solid black, she can’t be a combination pattern. My best guess is an extremely, extremely dark Caramel. I personally haven’t seen one with that much black, but her legs are a dead giveaway of the Caramel pattern. Not to mention she’s part Pygmy, and that’s one of the most common patterns. Very neat to see how her coat changes with the season. Those two possible dams are also Caramel; therefore, either could be Tilly’s dam.
> 
> ...


Just realized I never updated on here now that I have kids on the ground! 

So, Tilly (the really dark Caramel) ended up not being pregnant so I have since sold her. However, I'm sure her new owners will let me know when/if she kids. 😊 Lucy (Tilly's daughter) kidded back in May with twins (a light buckskin buckling and a really dark Caramel doeling that looks pretty similar to Tilly!). To refresh your memory, here's a picture of Tilly (50% ND and Pygmy):









Here's her daughter, Lucy (75% ND and 25% Pygmy):









Here's Tater (full registered ND) the buck Lucy was bred to:









And here's the the Lucy-Tater twins:

Loki:









Libby:









(Sorry, this is the only side pic I have of her)









So, now seeing that Lucy threw a Caramel kid, it's safe to say she is in fact a Buckskin/Caramel combo, right?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@Dandy Hill Farm that is so peculiar! I am not sure why your caramels are so abnormally dark. Do you have more pictures of Libby?


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Here's a few more older pictures of Libby.....they aren't the best, I can get newer ones if you need me too. Just let me know!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very cute.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Here's a few more older pictures of Libby.....they aren't the best, I can get newer ones if you need me too. Just let me know!
> View attachment 232525
> 
> View attachment 232521
> ...


I think she may just be a dark caramel like her granddam, Tilly. Her legs would look like her dam’s if she were a combo!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> I think she may just be a dark caramel like her granddam, Tilly. Her legs would look like her dam’s if she were a combo!


Sorry for the confusion, I too am pretty certain Libby is a dark caramel (like her grandma Tilly). I was asking that since Lucy threw a caramel kid (Libby), it confirms that Lucy herself is a combo.....correct? I remember you saying you weren't sure if Lucy was simply a light buckskin or a buckskin/caramel combo.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Sorry for the confusion, I too am pretty certain Libby is a dark caramel (like her grandma Tilly). I was asking that since Lucy threw a caramel kid (Libby), it confirms that Lucy herself is a combo.....correct? I remember you saying you weren't sure if Lucy was simply a light buckskin or a buckskin/caramel combo.


Oh, yes! Then it definitely confirms Lucy is a combo!! That’s why it’s always worthwhile to see their babies to confirm their patterns. You gave an excellent example of a follow-up!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Oh, yes! Then it definitely confirms Lucy is a combo!! That’s why it’s always worthwhile to see their babies to confirm their patterns. You gave an excellent example of a follow-up!


Okay great! Thank you for confirming that! 😊


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

I’ve wondered about Sukey’s color for a long time now. Sometimes she looks cream, sometimes a “strawberry roan” color. Her mom was a Nubian, brown with a white band and black highlights and her daddy was a Boer/Nubian, white/cream color. I don’t have pictures handy of them. I’d have to delve into the archives since we had them so long ago. I can get pictures of some of her kids though. 










































This one isn’t as good. 









Bad pic but this is her as a baby.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Pics of a few of her kids. All from 3 different bucks.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

@CountyLineAcres can answer that one!😂


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@KY Goat Girl

Sound like her dam was Bezoar and her sire was a variation of Gold. There’s a chance she’s an extremely light version of Bezoar or just a variation of Gold like her sire.

I would need to see the sires of the kids to know which genes were being thrown by each parent.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Moers kiko boars said:


> @CountyLineAcres can answer that one!


Hahaha I try my best!


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @KY Goat Girl
> 
> Sound like her dam was Bezoar and her sire was a variation of Gold. There’s a chance she’s an extremely light version of Bezoar or just a variation of Gold like her sire.
> 
> I would need to see the sires of the kids to know which genes were being thrown by each parent.


I have pics of two sires. The sire of the second kid I posted is actually Sukey’s dad. He jumped the fence and bred his daughter.  I can look on dad’s desktop and see if there are any goat pics on there. 









This is the sire of the twins in the last pic. Sorry it’s blurry. It’s the only picture I have of him unless I find another one. 









Sire to the buckling by the hay bale at the top. 
I will see if I can find any pics of other goats that would be helpful.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Terrible picture but here is her dam. 

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

And that is actually Sukey there poking her head in.  Sukey was two there so you can see the size difference. She’s definitely more on the stocky Boer side even though she’s only 1/4 Boer.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Couldn’t find any pictures of her sire but did find pics of her full brother and sister. The sister looks exactly like their sire. Sorry the pics aren’t great. I had to use my phone to take pictures of the desktop screen.
Her brother is the one in the trough


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)




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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@KY Goat Girl I haven’t forgotten about you. I will sit down and look at this soon.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Hello! I’m excited to learn what my new girl Astrid’s color is called. Is this yet another form of Cou Clair (I think that’s the one I’m thinking of)?

Here she is:









She is mostly Mini Nubian, but her granddam is an Alpine/Kiko mix.

Sire is, if I remember right, some form of Cou Clair with a splash of white. Here he is:








I’d be interested to know what he has going on also. His father is here:
https://kesselrundairgoats.com/herd/java 

And his mother is here:








Senior Does - Texas Tykes Farm






texastykesfarm.com




You have to scroll down a little to see her. She is Fruitful-Acres London.

I’ve bred him to my Suki, who I’m told is red cheek mahogany, and got some bezoar with white, a Cou Clair, and one guy I’m not sure about lol. I might ask about him later.

Back to Astrid though. Her dam is black with tan markings - I think it’s called Swiss marked? I don’t have her photo on this device. She was from my Hasi (currently my profile pic) and my first buck, who was mostly black with brownish red ears and just a touch of brown on his cheeks.

Hopefully that’s enough info! I’m excited to learn!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@KY Goat Girl I’d say your girl is gold and carrying bezoar based off what I’m seeing. For her gold, she could be a “shaded red” instead of the typical “white or tan” allele. It’s something that I’ve been noticing in boer crosses.  So if you breed her to that first Black and Tan buck or the Bezoar buck further down again, you’ll get Bezoar or Gold each time!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Feira426 said:


> Hello! I’m excited to learn what my new girl Astrid’s color is called. Is this yet another form of Cou Clair (I think that’s the one I’m thinking of)?
> 
> Here she is:
> View attachment 233968
> ...


Very exciting! Let’s start with Astrid’s parents.

Astrid’s sire is a great example of a Bezoar/Cou Clair combo. See how he looks like a Cou Clair because all of that eumelanin shading on the rump, but it’s brown rather than black like the rest of his eumelanin points (legs, spine, head)? That’s because, on occasion, the more recessive pattern “underneath” can “leak” through. The other dead giveaway is the fact that his belly is light like a bezoar, so we know he isn’t just Cou Clair, as their bellies usually have some dark shading to an extent.

Astrid’s sire’s sire is a Cou Clair and Astrid’s sire’s dam is a Bezoar, so the pieces fit together perfectly!

As for Astrid’s dam, it sound like her dam’s sire is red cheek and looking at that profile picture, I can’t really tell what combination her dam is from that angle. Looks to be Swiss/Cham. That would make Astrid’s dam likely a Swiss or Swiss/Red Cheek combo based on your description.

Now to Astrid herself! She is most definitely a Cou Clair. Some Cou Clairs have very minimal eumelanin shading like herself. She could be carrying red cheek as well, but it’s pretty hard to deduce, since all the pheomelanin a red cheek would have is mostly there anyways on a Cou Clair. Her Cou Clair facial swoop is still there, so I think it’s likely she’s just carrying black… but leakage happens, so I won’t rule it out! You have a 50/50 shot lol.

Hope that helps!!  Would love to see the buckling you’re curious about too!


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Well I'm back with some new goats! I believe I just have more Bezoars so this should be easy. I can pull pictures of parents if you need.
Here is Bodhi(mature buck). I believe he's Bezoar with heavy roaning.









Here is Jake. He also looks Bezoar to me. And some moonspots.








And Mia. Bezoar again?


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> @KY Goat Girl I’d say your girl is gold and carrying bezoar based off what I’m seeing. For her gold, she could be a “shaded red” instead of the typical “white or tan” allele. It’s something that I’ve been noticing in boer crosses.  So if you breed her to that first Black and Tan buck or the Bezoar buck further down again, you’ll get Bezoar or Gold each time!


Thank you! I have kinda thought for the past year or so (since I started learning goat colors) that she might be some kind of gold. I don’t have any of those Nubian bucks anymore. Just Nigerians which are both Chamoisees or I think one is a Cham combo.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Now I have one more goat. I think she’s a Chamoisee but I’m not sure. She might be a combo. 

































Her dam looks exactly like her and I don’t know what her sire looks like. She is mini Nubian.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Rancho Draco said:


> Well I'm back with some new goats! I believe I just have more Bezoars so this should be easy. I can pull pictures of parents if you need.
> Here is Bodhi(mature buck). I believe he's Bezoar with heavy roaning.
> View attachment 233971
> 
> ...


Everyone but Bodhi looks Bezoar from what I can see! Bodhi looks to be Caramel due to his leg striping on the back. It is really only seen in Pygmies and Pygmy crosses.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

KY Goat Girl said:


> Now I have one more goat. I think she’s a Chamoisee but I’m not sure. She might be a combo.
> View attachment 233981
> 
> View attachment 233982
> ...


Yes, Chamoisee! You are exactly right.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Yes, Chamoisee! You are exactly right.


 So I have 4 chams and a gold variation. Lol Looking at the chams they don’t all look the same so it looks like I have more color than I technically do. Lol
































This last one is full sister to the buck above her. I remember asking about her color back in Feb/March and you said that she was most likely a Cham since her dam is one and her sire is probably Cham underneath his extensive white.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Everyone but Bodhi looks Bezoar from what I can see! Bodhi looks to be Caramel due to his leg striping on the back. It is really only seen in Pygmies and Pygmy crosses.


Good to know! Would you agree that he's roaned or is that part of the Caramel pattern?


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

I was wondering what color my American Nubian is she always has the craziest colored kids no matter what buck she is bred to… like dapples stripe ish patterns and gray. I have no clue what her parents look like even tho she is registered, I don’t know if there would be a way to look them up or something 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

She’s pretty! If you have her pedigree you might can find websites to the farms her parents come from and find their names.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

Thank you, she is my old retired lady 😂🥰 ( almost 9 ). I have her registration papers. Do I just google her parents?


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

I find the farm(s) a goat’s parents were bred on and find their websites and see if I can find the goat(s) I’m looking for. It works most of the time but it sometimes takes awhile to track them down.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

Ok thanks!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

@KY Goat Girl My oh my you do have a lot of chams! Not a bad thing. I think they’re beautiful.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Rancho Draco said:


> Good to know! Would you agree that he's roaned or is that part of the Caramel pattern?


I agree with you on the roaning! It’s so pretty!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Doe C Doe boers! said:


> I was wondering what color my American Nubian is she always has the craziest colored kids no matter what buck she is bred to… like dapples stripe ish patterns and gray. I have no clue what her parents look like even tho she is registered, I don’t know if there would be a way to look them up or something
> View attachment 233998
> 
> View attachment 233999
> ...


I think it’s possible that she’s a very light Bezoar/Buckskin combo.  You can post pictures of the bucks she was bred to and the kids she has given to potentially confirm!


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Feira426 said:


> Hello! I’m excited to learn what my new girl Astrid’s color is called. Is this yet another form of Cou Clair (I think that’s the one I’m thinking of)?
> 
> Here she is:
> View attachment 233968
> ...


Wow! You know so much. This is so cool!

I’m trying and trying to get my computer to come up and run long enough for me to get you proper pictures of Astrid’s dam and her parents, but it’s not cooperating. Hubby says the graphics card is going bad, so it may be a while before I have access to those photos again. 😢

But! Here’s the buckling I was curious about. His name is Koh. Or it was - idk of his new owners renamed him lol. He left last month.

Koh looks a lot like his bezoar siblings and half siblings, except... what’s this dark bit around his shoulders and across his chest? And he has one small grey spot on one side of his neck. 🤨
When he was a baby, I thought he was gonna be a roan, but all the white hairs disappeared when he got a little older. Just haven’t had another one quite like him!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Feira426 said:


> Wow! You know so much. This is so cool!
> 
> I’m trying and trying to get my computer to come up and run long enough for me to get you proper pictures of Astrid’s dam and her parents, but it’s not cooperating. Hubby says the graphics card is going bad, so it may be a while before I have access to those photos again.
> 
> ...


He is bezoar through and through! Bezoars, especially males, usually get that shoulder stripe (I forget the name of it). Sometimes they don’t have it when they’re babies, and it appears as they age. It’s likely linked to hormones hence why males tend to get darker while females usually don’t.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> I think it’s possible that she’s a very light Bezoar/Buckskin combo.  You can post pictures of the bucks she was bred to and the kids she has given to potentially confirm!


I will get pics later!


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

My hubby did some computer magic and now I have access to my pics again!









^ This girl on the left is Astrid's mama, Feather. That's her twin brother with her. 

---








^ This is Hasi, Feather's mama, Astrid's maternal grandmother.

---

















^ This is Kombucha, Feather's sire. He was my first ever buck and the foundation of my entire herd! He's a very tall Mini Nubian. He was almost solid black, with just this bit of reddish brown on his cheeks and reddish brown ears, and a couple of tiny white specks. I would love to know what he is, but I don't have any info on his parents. He threw two red cheek mahogany girls when I bred him to my first doe May, and with Hasi he made whatever Feather and her brother are.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

CountyLineAcres said:


> He is bezoar through and through! Bezoars, especially males, usually get that shoulder stripe (I forget the name of it). Sometimes they don’t have it when they’re babies, and it appears as they age. It’s likely linked to hormones hence why males tend to get darker while females usually don’t.


I didn't realize males got a shoulder stripe as they get older. How cool! Koh was the first boy we kept intact, so I guess that's why I never realized, lol. How cool! Maybe that's why Murphy's face turned black too. It was light when he was a baby.

*Edit: Murphy is Astrid's dad - don't think I mentioned his name in the other post.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> I think it’s possible that she’s a very light Bezoar/Buckskin combo.  You can post pictures of the bucks she was bred to and the kids she has given to potentially confirm!


















































I hope these are helpful. Do you think she is the one throwing the dapples? She has had dappled kids with this buck so I’m wondering if it her!? What would these kids be called I have absolutely no clue 😂


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

I’m curious. What’s the exact difference between Chamoisee, Bezoar, and Carmel?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

I will answer you all in the morning! I’m so happy to see so many questions and all of you wanting to learn!


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

Thanks for teaching us! 🥰 also I’m going to have a lot more questions lol


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Never too many questions!


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)

What color is this mini Nubian doe?


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)




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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Feira426 said:


> My hubby did some computer magic and now I have access to my pics again!
> 
> View attachment 234055
> 
> ...


Awesome! Feather is definitely Swiss. Her dam, Hasi, looks to be a Swiss/Cham combo. I don’t see those everyday! Her sire, Kombucha is simply Red Cheek. . I know Kombucha isn’t homozygous for Red Cheek (aka Red Cheek/Red Cheek) because his daughter, Feather, is not Swiss/Red Cheek. She is just Swiss (aka Swiss/No Pattern), since you get one allele from each parent.

Hope that helps! Let me know if you have any questions!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Doe C Doe boers! said:


> View attachment 234090
> 
> View attachment 234094
> View attachment 234097
> ...


Do you have pictures of the dappled kids? This one is hard to tell because we can only see her head. The rest of her body is covered by the traditional boer pattern.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Goatastic43 said:


> I’m curious. What’s the exact difference between Chamoisee, Bezoar, and Carmel?


Here’s a small sample of a pattern chart I’ve been working on. It is a work in progress! The bezoar is a heavily eumelanin shaded example commonly seen in bucks. I have other examples of the variations.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Here’s a small sample of a pattern chart I’ve been working on. It is a work in progress! The bezoar is a heavily eumelanin shaded example commonly seen in bucks. I have other examples of the variations.
> 
> View attachment 234318


Interesting. Bodhi has a light belly. Is he a Caramel combo then?


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Do you have pictures of the dappled kids? This one is hard to tell because we can only see her head. The rest of her body is covered by the traditional boer pattern.


I will try to dig up some pics I don’t know if I have any of the sire tho. Would pics of Hazels parents help?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Ok deer said:


> View attachment 234150


Do you have more pictures?


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)




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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)




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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)

Sorry they are not the best.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

The three small kids are hers. I’m so sorry these pics are so bad and my goats look bad this was a long time ago








the one on the left is hers








sire of all four kids


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Ok deer said:


> View attachment 234322
> 
> View attachment 234323
> 
> ...


She’s a Cou Clair! I can see the swoop on the side of her face now.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Rancho Draco said:


> Interesting. Bodhi has a light belly. Is he a Caramel combo then?


Caramels have quite a variation on the belly coloration. They commonly have black bellies, but they can go without it. He isn’t giving any signs of a combo from what I can tell.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Doe C Doe boers! said:


> I will try to dig up some pics I don’t know if I have any of the sire tho. Would pics of Hazels parents help?


Yes, parent pictures are always helpful!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Doe C Doe boers! said:


> View attachment 234329
> 
> The three small kids are hers. I’m so sorry these pics are so bad and my goats look bad this was a long time ago
> View attachment 234330
> ...


How cute! The downside of traditionals is that they can hide spots and dapples under the white pattern. It’s possibly coming from the dam or the sire. If there’s a spotted/dappled grandparent, that’ll give you a better idea of which side it’s coming from.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

Ok I will try to find Hazels parents but I have no way of finding the sires parents. Do you think she is a bezoar/ buckskin combo still?


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)

The crazy thing is she has always thrown black and gray babies!


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)

That is weird I have only seen this in Sannens !


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)

What about her daughter?


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> How cute! The downside of traditionals is that they can hide spots and dapples under the white pattern. It’s possibly coming from the dam or the sire. If there’s a spotted/dappled grandparent, that’ll give you a better idea of which side it’s coming from.


I can’t find pics of her parents 😕


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Doe C Doe boers! said:


> Ok I will try to find Hazels parents but I have no way of finding the sires parents. Do you think she is a bezoar/ buckskin combo still?


It’s unfortunately hard to know without seeing her parents. By breeding her to boers, a breed which has very minimal research into their color genetics, her kids could be anything from gold, shaded red, black mask, or light bezoar depending on who you ask. We still don’t know which gene is responsible for the red boer.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

That is so interesting. I don’t know how to find her parents I know the farms they came from but Hazel is almost nine her parents would be pretty old by now if they are still living. Her dam is whisper-n-creek Daisy and her sire is southern bell move like jagger I found their pedigree but no pics.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Ok deer said:


> The crazy thing is she has always thrown black and gray babies!


Black will occur up to 50% of the time depending on who you breed her to (if they have zero, one, or two copies), since she carries the gene for it.



Ok deer said:


> What about her daughter?
> View attachment 234335
> 
> View attachment 234336
> ...


Looks like the typical Pygmy agouti pattern. Otherwise, it’s a black goat with heavy roaning.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Doe C Doe boers! said:


> That is so interesting. I don’t know how to find her parents I know the farms they came from but Hazel is almost nine her parents would be pretty old by now if they are still living. Her dam is whisper-n-creek Daisy and her sire is southern bell move like jagger I found their pedigree but no pics.


Awe! Well I am sure there’s Bezoar. Just not sure if there’s a combo. It’s one of the most common nubian patterns.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

Ok well either way thank you. I will keep trying to find pics of her parents


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)

I have one more goat to ask about thanks sooooo much for giving me an a sewer [mention]CountyLineAcres [/mention]








Sh








She is a








A pi















Pygmy goat.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Thanks so much! So is Kombucha black with the red cheek pattern gene? His daughter has red on her body also - I'm told she is mahogany, which I'm guessing is a mix of black and something else?

Also, one more question - Astrid's coloring is very different to the Cou Clair goats she's descended from. She's very red, while they are more of a tan or light brown. What is causing the difference - do you know? Thanks! This is so informative and fun!


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Also your diagram is very good!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Ok deer said:


> I have one more goat to ask about thanks sooooo much for giving me an a sewer [mention]CountyLineAcres [/mention]
> View attachment 234395
> 
> Sh
> ...


So sorry for the delay! She looks to be the same as the other, just a lighter version. The pattern is called Agouti Grey.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Feira426 said:


> Thanks so much! So is Kombucha black with the red cheek pattern gene? His daughter has red on her body also - I'm told she is mahogany, which I'm guessing is a mix of black and something else?
> 
> Also, one more question - Astrid's coloring is very different to the Cou Clair goats she's descended from. She's very red, while they are more of a tan or light brown. What is causing the difference - do you know? Thanks! This is so informative and fun!


Kombucha would be Red Cheek/No Pattern aka Red Cheek/Black. He has one copy of Red Cheek and one copy of No Pattern/Black.

Depending on the breed, red cheek is often referred to as mahogany and used interchangeably. However, some believe that there may be a separate mahogany gene. If Kombucha is bred to a recessive black doe, he should only be able to produce Red Cheek or Black. If the dam isn’t black, then you could get combination patterns with Red Cheek.

Pheomelanin (the yellow/tan/red pigment) seems to be inherited separately from the pattern. For example, if you’re breeding Kombucha (who has a darker pheomelanin - the red on his cheeks) to a doe that has light pheomelanin (light tan body), you could get a variety of different shades. The Agouti pattern is responsible for distributing the pheomelanin on the body, not necessarily determining the shade. Hope that isn’t confusing!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Sorry for the delay in responding to everyone! I love all your questions, so if you have any, please don’t be shy.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Since no one else has questions yet… 









So I know his color is black and white but is there something deeper to his colors? Something more scientific?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

KY Goat Girl said:


> Since no one else has questions yet…
> View attachment 234869
> 
> 
> So I know his color is black and white but is there something deeper to his colors? Something more scientific?


Nope! That is the most recessive pattern. He isn’t hiding anything. Just two copies of “No pattern” aka “black”. His genotype of the Agouti, Brown, and Extension Locus would be:

E+E+ A(a)A(a) B+B+











Now if we were talking about dominant black, then we would be opening another can of worms. I don’t believe I’ve seen any documented examples in any breeds others than Boers (which likely came from Spanish) and Angoras.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Ok thanks! I’ve been wondering about that.


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)

Thanks!


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)

[mention]CountyLineAcres [/mention] these are some of the kids from that Cou Clair mini Nubian doe I showed you!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Ok deer said:


> View attachment 235661
> 
> View attachment 235662
> 
> [mention]CountyLineAcres [/mention] these are some of the kids from that Cou Clair mini Nubian doe I showed you!


Based on her kids, it looks like your mini Nubian would be a Cou Clair carrying No Pattern, since she has a black kid. Sire must be an Agouti Grey buck also carrying No Pattern.


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)

This is their sire.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Oh, then the kids are just simply black.

One of the parents has to have roaning on them to create the one that looks like the Agouti Grey. They’re just black with roaning.


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## Ok deer (7 mo ago)

Thanks!


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## TripleShareNubians (Nov 5, 2021)

Can you help? Someone on another thread just wondering how to describe this color for registration and what it is.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

TripleShareNubians said:


> Can you help? Someone on another thread just wondering how to describe this color for registration and what it is.


She looks like a chocolate buckskin with extensive white overlay to me.....kinda hard to say for sure from that pic though.


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## BloomfieldM (7 mo ago)

Ooo fun times. What pattern is this guy?








mom-roa








dad-








sister


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Him, his mom, and his sister are buckskins.


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## BloomfieldM (7 mo ago)

KY Goat Girl said:


> Him, his mom, and his sister are buckskins.


Okay, I thought buckskin was shoulders mostly. Didn’t realize it could go back to the rump! Thanks!


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## TripleShareNubians (Nov 5, 2021)

@Dandy Hill Farm thank you. I keep meaning to get back to this thread but life has been incredibly busy. That person asked on a mewe thread


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

@CountyLineAcres ..can you jump in here..
Please?


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

BloomfieldM said:


> Okay, I thought buckskin was shoulders mostly. Didn’t realize it could go back to the rump! Thanks!


Generally, that is correct. However, some goats' capes will fade/extend over their body with age. This website gives some great examples on that - Nigerian Dwarf Color The little guy that you're wondering about almost looks like a buckskin/swiss combo to (might just be his extended cape throwing me off though)......I'll let @CountyLineAcres confirm if he's really a combo or not. 🙂


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## BloomfieldM (7 mo ago)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Generally, that is correct. However, some goats' capes will fade/extend over their body with age. This website gives some great examples on that - Nigerian Dwarf Color The little guy that you're wondering about almost looks like a buckskin/swiss combo to (might just be his extended cape throwing me off though)......I'll let @CountyLineAcres confirm if he's really a combo or not. 🙂


I wondered Swiss but it didn’t look right…. It is probably buckskin. But I’m certainly not the expert! I will probably believe anything you tell me 😂🤣😂


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## BloomfieldM (7 mo ago)

BloomfieldM said:


> I wondered Swiss but it didn’t look right…. It is probably buckskin. But I’m certainly not the expert! I will probably believe anything you tell me 😂🤣😂


And I’ll be like… Dandy Hill Farm, who is clearly the expert here, said…. 😂🤣😂


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Hi everyone! Sorry for the late response. I have been so busy with work.

You are all doing a fantastic job!

@TripleShareNubians 
Yes, chocolate buckskin with a white overlay.

@BloomfieldM
Buckskin! Dam and sister are both buckskins. We know he is not a combination pattern for several reasons. 

Reason #1: Sire is black. Therefore, he can contribute nothing but the No Pattern allele.

Reason #2: Swiss has a dark belly and no leg striping. We know he’s also not Black and Tan because of that lack of black on the rear thigh.

Now, keep these pictures close! His cape will likely extend due to testosterone, and he will look indistinguishable from a Black and Tan but still genetically be a Buckskin.


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## BloomfieldM (7 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Hi everyone! Sorry for the late response. I have been so busy with work.
> 
> You are all doing a fantastic job!
> 
> ...


Fascinating. Looking at the parents could you give me an idea of what color/pattern genetics the sister carries? I might actually breed her at some point and would love to try and predict baby outcomes!

Also my other doe, also a buckskin had 2 black and white babies with the same dad, so does that mean she also carries recessive black?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

BloomfieldM said:


> Fascinating. Looking at the parents could you give me an idea of what color/pattern genetics the sister carries? I might actually breed her at some point and would love to try and predict baby outcomes!
> 
> Also my other doe, also a buckskin had 2 black and white babies with the same dad, so does that mean she also carries recessive black?


Yes! The sister is the exact same as her brother. Both buckskin recessively carrying black.

And also yes. You can only get black kids if the parent has the gene!  Black goats are homozygous for the No Pattern allele. It’s the only pattern they can throw. Which can be covered by a more dominant pattern thrown by the other parent.


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## BloomfieldM (7 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Yes! The sister is the exact same as her brother. Both buckskin recessively carrying black.
> 
> And also yes. You can only get black kids if the parent has the gene!  Black goats are homozygous for the No Pattern allele. It’s the only pattern they can throw. Which can be covered by a more dominant pattern thrown by the other parent.


Sorry another follow up question, since neither baby ended up with roaning does that mean that they would not have roan kids?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

BloomfieldM said:


> Sorry another follow up question, since neither baby ended up with roaning does that mean that they would not have roan kids?


Correct. Roaning is believed to be dominant


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## CarolInTheGarden (Mar 16, 2021)

What color is Lola? Up until she was about 3 weeks old, she was all black with her distinctive white markings, then the moon spots started to show under the black and then they burst out. We have just been calling her black with moon spots and white markings. The bottom pic is her at 3 weeks old.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

Are these moonspots?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

CarolInTheGarden said:


> What color is Lola? Up until she was about 3 weeks old, she was all black with her distinctive white markings, then the moon spots started to show under the black and then they burst out. We have just been calling her black with moon spots and white markings. The bottom pic is her at 3 weeks old.
> View attachment 238352
> View attachment 238354


She’s black with white pole, white overlay, frosted ears, and moonspots. The moonspots can be super dark at birth, but you can see them if you hold them in natural light. They have a brownish hue.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Doe C Doe boers! said:


> View attachment 238353
> 
> Are these moonspots?


No, moonspots cannot be black. That’s leg striping from an agouti pattern.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> No, moonspots cannot be black. That’s leg striping from an agouti pattern.


Oh cool I didn’t know they couldn’t be black! Can moonspots be on black? If remember right you said she was bezoar / buckskin combo so what would you call her?


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

I’m new to color stuff thanks for bearing with me 😂


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Doe C Doe boers! said:


> Oh cool I didn’t know they couldn’t be black! Can moonspots be on black? If remember right you said she was bezoar / buckskin combo so what would you call her?


That would be what I called her base - Bezoar/Buckskin combo.

Yes, moonspots can be anywhere except on white. White covers moonspots.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Doe C Doe boers! said:


> I’m new to color stuff thanks for bearing with me


We all start somewhere!!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Doe C Doe boers! said:


> View attachment 238353
> 
> Are these moonspots?


No. They are not.


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## Doe C Doe boers! (6 mo ago)

CountyLineAcres said:


> That would be what I called her base - Bezoar/Buckskin combo.
> 
> Yes, moonspots can be anywhere except on white. White covers moonspots.


Ok thank you!


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