# Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *problem is back...*



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

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It looks like Barclay really managed to screw himself up, and I'm refraining from swearing because his timing is the absolute WORST. I haven't been able to be home for a few days because of work, and I won't be able to be home full-time for possibly another week, unless things start going in a better direction soon.

At any rate, I get home today to check on everyone and make sure I'm not going to have to take off work, and Barclay is literally walking on the back of his heels. I check to make sure they're not overgrown, and while the heels were about 1/4-1/2 inch overgrown, every picture (and the video) is AFTER he got a trim. He's got more heel than toe, and should not be walking like he is. The only thing I can think of is he hurt himself pretty bad trying to go over the fence and sprained the tendons to the point where he can't walk right. He doesn't act like he's in serious pain, there's no parasite issues, he's eating/drinking/walking around ok, there's no indication of a neurological problem, he's in good weight. He is starting to lose a bit of hair off his legs, so there *might* be a lice problem (there's certainly something funky going on with his scrotal skin, of which I have also included a pic-beware, it is hiding down there), but I wouldn't think that would be affecting anything.

He will start to shift and "dance" when he stands still for too long so obviously it's getting a bit uncomfortable. My dad has him on close watch and the minute he can't get up, he's going to call me to come out and take care of him. The only thing I can think of is get some selenium and let him ride it out, but BoSe is next to impossible to get and I don't want to have to wait for a tube of the gel. any suggestions as to what it is and what I can do to fix it?
















































video should be public, feel free to mute it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... JM4pS7MqPs

Horrible picture, but the hair is clumpy (no visible issues with the skin that I can see). Lice, or just general animal ickiness that I'm just going to have to clean regularly?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

Could be a copper, mineral, or selenium issue. Loose minerals available? When did he last get copper bolused or BoSe?


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

he got BoSe at 3 weeks old, never been bolused, free choice access to an 8% cattle mineral with both. He's been on this mineral since he was 6 weeks old along with both girls. Neither doe is showing any indications of weakened pasterns, which is why my first thought jumped to injury.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

How old is he? Sorry if I missed it.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

He will be a year old on the 21st of this month


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

I have know idea what might be at the bottom of this... nutrition seems likely... but I just feel like there must be some way to help stabilize it just for the time being. a brace of some sort? Also I know I've read that saanens are prone to pastern issues....
anyway good luck!
M.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

Also, just for reference, his sire's side had not had any issues with pasterns, and those goats are plain massive. Not so sure about his dam's side.

If it was nutritional, would it show up this quickly? He was absolutely fine last week, standing straight and running about like his usual self. This is something that has developed in less than a week.


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

that's a point about the speed.. based on that I'd be guessing at something mechanical... like you suggested fence jumping....
M.


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

is he CAE neg? (just ran across something online...)
M.


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## LoneStarChic (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

Any way you could shave the hair so we can clearly see the top of the hoof? I saw this on another forum... Pics & all, let me go hunt up the link for you as I know they resolved the issue (and that goat had worse feet than you goat). Bo-Se would help, but I understand it's hard to come by...

Gonna go find that link....BRB


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## LoneStarChic (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

Here is the thread I saw on another forum.... 3 pages long, but it may be helpful & has before & after pictures....

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=21649.0

Hope it's ok to post another forum link, if not, mods feel free to delete this...


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

He has never been testedfor cae, but his dam tested negative. No joint or structural problems in either parent.

His feet have never been great, he grows them so quickly I often have to trim them twice a month. His last trim was about 2 weeks ago, and out was just a bit of overgrowth. He hasn't ever really had really deformed feet, and in those photos, the sole is pretty well lined up with the coronet band. If anything, hes got shorter toes than heels. Unfortunately, I'm not st home right now our I would be able to trim the hair.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2012)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

It looks to me like his feet need trimmed properly. The frogs are way too long allowing him to be off center and rock on the back of his feet. While trimming follow the natural ring line all along the hoof the frog should be trimmed to that level too. This condition can be corrected but will take knowledgeable trimming and a lot of it. From what I can tell the frog is nearly 1/2" too high so that makes the toes too long and with the frog growing that long and fat at the bottom it is splaying out his toes. White colored feet grow the fastest of all colors since they are soft they will not trim them selves very easily by breaking off. Feeding lots of corn will make them grow fast too. This type of trait will be passed on to his kids too. Just my experience.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

Oh I know out will be passed on. Hes a saanen. I'm not even sure black feet exist in that breed.

I thought it might have to do with pour trimming on my part (i will admit, I've never had to deal with feet growing this fast and it's absolutely possible that I screwed him up), but would it really break him down this quickly? Hes always looked like he stands decently on his feet. His heels have always been a misery to keep in check, if you look at his 2 month old photo on my site, even st that age he was more toe than heel. I cut the toes to the quick this afternoon and just tried to smooth the heel down.

Unfortunately for him, nobody around here seems to be good enough at trimming to even keep elf toes off their goats, do I'm kind of on my own.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2012)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

It takes time to learn how to trim hooves and with hand trimmers it is a chore. I would think about trading him for a different Buck. I'm not sure about the breed since I don't do Dairy but would think that if you can find one that was not foundered young like yours was that you have a better chance of keeping them trimmed. I have seen and have had goats like this that eventually can't walk and will walk around on their knees. The main thing is to take the frog down and get between his toes with the clippers and get them so they will close together, that alone will help pull the pastern back in line. Those tendons that run to his individual toe are being compromised because they are being forced inwardward, at right angles putting a kink in the straight pull the tendon needs to keep everything in line, jamming them together and making them weak, kind of like carpal tunnel. I used to be afraid I would take off too much and harm the goat, the same goes for under trimming by not taking off enough or in the wrong places you can alter the goats posture so as to effect its health. As a rule I don't need to trim any animals feet but once a year or 2, my buck I have trimmed 3 times in 2 years.


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## LoneStarChic (Jan 19, 2012)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

That link I posted discusses how to trim this to fix.... The doe discussed in that link had her feet screw up fairly fast...

This may sound silly, but I have a tendency to buy fixer uppers & I've had to fix several bad feet.... I just bought a doe who was foundered & she will be an ongoing project (but thats a different story).

Anywho, for me it's hard to keep in mind what to trim when looking at the bottom of the foot..... So I put them on the stand, shave the hair around the feet, then, while standing flat, I take a sharpie & a square & draw a parallel line near the bottom of the hoof & use that as my guide so I trim level from heel to toe..... I've slowly got better at trimming & don't have to draw lines anymore, but until I got a knack for what I needed to do, it really helped (especially on badly mishapen feet). If you don't use a rasp, I'd get one so you can rasp him down as flat as possible. If you're handy with an angle grinder, grinding them down would be faster, but I prefer a hoof rasp.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

He's fine, just cut 1/4 inch off the heels, don't shorten the toe anymore and smooth the line to this new angle. He's just got overgrown heels that are letting him rock back with his weight because the bottom of the foot is too small from toe to heel. A sureform works really well to get excess heel down. One of my Saanens did the same thing. Now he's big enough that his weight keeps the heels from growing so fast.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

Ok so it's z relatively eat fix then. The minute I get home ill cut the jewel down and try to find a way to brace the pastern until he back to normal.

I have never had this kind of problem on a goat before, even that *insert swear* boer doe who wa diner than a bag of rocks...the worst she eve did was tip her whole leg to the outside bedside the inside toe on all 4 feet grew twice as fast.

Sideplaner-if this problem starts cropping up in his kids, he will most definitely be wethered, but his sire is a good 300lb and his heels are horrible, and he has yet to hyperextend his pastern. I dont believe it's founder, there hasn't been any kind of feed change that would have set it off. It might still be a possibility that I can't rule out


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

You shouldn't have to brace his pasterns, as soon as the heels are shortened enough he should pop right back up again. you can see in the second picture that the hairline to toe bottem is shorter than the hair line to heel bottem. His pasterns aren't weak, he's trimmed so that he's on the tips of his coffin bones with his foot flat, when he tries to level his foot it rocks back.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

You have been given great advice.

Its probably worth mentioning that the shape of the hind toes is different to the shape of the front toes - it looks to me like you've trimmed the back feet to the shape that the front ones should be - the hind ones should be a bit longer and shallower, more like a triangle.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

Ah bugger I dont think I made any sense there


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## apachedowns (Mar 14, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

I have had this happen with a huge buck and you want to square off the heel so its level but not take too much off...then you want to trim the toe so he starts to correct the stance..I do the same type of approach on horses...I do toe trims on my filly as she has long pasturns and I have to keep the toe trimmed so she doesn't roll back. You do want to take some off the heel but only half of what you would on the toe...it is very hard to explain on an post, I am sorry, but keep in mind you only want to square off the heel so it has a solid base (so he can't rock back) and the extra off the toe will force the stance to come forward. Very hard to describe without pictures, sorry.


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

is this kind of what you're thinking? http://sites.google.com/site/2creeksgoa ... f-trimming ?
I can't remember where I found this image... but... from what it seems to say you should cut more of the toe and leave the heel.....

@sideplaner... what do you mean by the "frog" I know what it'd be on a horse but on a goat?
M.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

Alright-i am having out this morning to get him fixed up. But before I start hacking his feet off, the general consensus is to cut about1/4 inch off the heel and leave the toe, correct? His toes were cut down to the quick yesterday,i doubt I could get them much further. I do have a rasp, but it's a massive horse rasp that often takes off as much of my skin as it does the foot, but I will try marking it with a sharpie and rasping it down to an even point.

Sideplaner, out just occurred to me-what do you know about striped feet? It only just hit me that this foot has a big old black stripe straight down it-might be screwing up how it grows?


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

I may be wrong but I feel like taking more off the heels will just exacerbate the problem... I would at least ask a vet before you do anything drastic... but that's just me.... When I look at the photos closely it seems like the actually trimming looks pretty good and that it is something internal (tendon etc.) that is the issue. I think if he was supposed to be standing the way he is you'd make it easier by taking off heel... but since this isn't how it should be taking off heel just seems wrong... :shrug: ON the other hand I don't have any personal experience with this particular issue... Really I guess what I'm trying to say is be very careful....
Goodluck! 
M.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

E well what I can do is clip the hair and wash the whole foot and let you guys take a look at that, BUT in order for that to work, you would just need to go to my photobucket account and look st them there. My phone cannot copy/paste, and I wrong have access to a computer until after I have left, and then what good does it do? But if someone wants to post them for me before I leave,i can get some advice while I'm out there and able to makechanges (seriously,i can't wait to get my car back and end this whole mess)


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

If you post the photobucket link I'll post them (or try to) here. asap.... and if you can get one of the soles that might help too....
M.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

I won't be able to post the link, however the photos on the first page ought to take you to it, and if not,i come up in a search real quick (itasakukkun). Everything is public, and it would be in the mobile uploads album. If I can figure out a way to linkup the site I will but do far I havent ben able to


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

I found the album... have you uploaded them yet?
M.


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

and since I have to go to class in the next 20 minutes or so here is the album link for everyone else... 
http://s446.photobucket.com/albums/qq18 ... kun/Mobile Uploads/
M.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

No,i won't be able to for at lest another half an hour. I'm waiting on my ride to show up for right now. Soon as I leave,i should have them up pretty quickly.

Thank you do much for posting the link! Should make life a bit easier.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *new pics**

Ok, got the hair shaved down and out looks like it is a failtastic trim job. But either yesterdays trim did singe good or he just started walking normally again, because hes standing ok now. Still beds to be fixed, so the pics are bring uploaded


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

http://s446.photobucket.com/albums/qq183/itasakukkun/Mobile Uploads/

here's a working link to the album.
M.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

I added a second set of pics, they are post second trimming. There were a couple of obvious spots that needed to be done, so hopefully I did a good enough job on them. I also included his front feet in case they had anything to do with it, but they are pre-trim. I did not include a post trim with them, so thats 2 weeks of growth.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

This looks too stilted here, the heel is just a bit long









This looks better need to draw a line from toe to heel and flatten the bottom of the foot









The inside of the outer toes are still too long. You'll want to slowly trim that curl out


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *pics/vid**

Thank you for the advice. I did cut the heel down on that front foot, it's much more square than it is in the photo. My phone was dying and wouldn't let me use the camera, so I had to include the pre-trim only shots.

I cut down as much as I could on the back feet, what you see is as close as I could get without serious bleeding (you can see that I did cut the quick on both feet, he was squirmy and I was already juuust to the pink from yesterday's cut). I'm going to go at it again next weekend and take care of the inside edges (he needs it for both the front and back) and work on smoothing the soles down. It was too close to the quick for me to do any rasping, so he's still rough-soled on all 4 feet.

Just so no one has to sort through and figure out what's what (and because I'm borrowing my friend's computer to post these), here's all the photos, minus what's been posted.

left fore, pre-trim








rear feet, post secondary trim (hence the blood-he really didn't bleed all that much, just enough to make a mess-no limp)








left rear, pre-secondary trim (this is from this morning, so after the emergency trim yesterday)








left rear, post-secondary trim








right rear, pre-secondary trim








right rear, post secondary trim








front view rear feet, post secondary trim


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *new pics**

That looks better. I would kind of just let the toe grow out a little bit now for awhile and continue regular trimmings on the heals.


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## peggy (Aug 11, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *new pics**

This has been an interesting thread. I have a doe that has rear feet like that and I think it is because I am trimming wrong so this has been educational. Thanks everyone.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *new pics**

When I read the title of this thread I was expecting pictures of a disaster. I couln't even see much wrong with your buck from the pictures. Then I watched the video and could see what you were talking about. Still, I don't think your goat is a wreck. You've now done what you can to help him. Let him grow out a little and see what happens. You are a good goat owner.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *new pics**

I get into a panic soon as something starts going wrong. When I checked him yesterday, he couldn't straighten it at all. he stayed on the back of his heel, and when I moved it around, it kind of just flopped and popped a lot. Hes still rolling back on it, but hes walking and standing like he should now, which tells me it's a trimming problem. The best I can figure to do is keep the hair trimmed year round and keep him on a 2 week schedule until it's sorted out.

I had to teach myself how to do their feet, so when something goes wrong,i doing have anyone to blame but myself. I guess I can be glad that what I did worked and theres no permanent damage. Lets just hope this isn't a recurring problem.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *new pics**

this was a great post!! I have a lot of 'fix-er-up-ers' and am not great at fixing feet, so I learned alot. And good job!! you did great on his hoofs!


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: Broken down pasterns on a yearling? *new pics**

The problem is, unfortunately back, though not nearly as severe. I noticed it again about 2 weeks ago, wrapped and braced out for 24 hours and gabe him a shot of bose. And, when I went to trim today, he was doing it again. I trimmed it as best I could, but it didn't really help much. I've tried shortening the toe as much as possible, I've tried shortening and flattening the heel, I've tried everything short of calling a farrier out to get him shod (only joking). I'm pretty danged lost st this point.


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