# Which one would you keep?



## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

These are Kinder's, so should be a mix of dairy & meat, not too dairy. Was unsuccessful breeding better rumps into these girls and they're downsloping a bit too (new buck on board), but improved other areas... Would like to keep one to see if we made improvements in milking but would love some honest feedback on which one. My love of their personalities is getting in the way  Their mom is a great milker and a perfect temperament & they definitely take after her in personality. The doelings are identical from the back, plumb teats. One is more narrow in the shoulders from the front.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

@MellonFriend raises Kinder I beleive.?? Maybe she can chime in.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

If possible I'd like to see some more "set up" pictures. If you could get a picture more from the side of the second girl that would be better. Also a rear photo of each would help. From these pictures I like the first girl. I like her top line, her long rump. She also looks very balanced to me. Really, though it might be that the second girl's pictures aren't as flattering.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

What pretty girls!

I really like the first doeling! She just looks better put together and a lot about her blends well. She has a nice topline, brisket, front leg placement, rear leg angulation, body length, neck length, head shape, depth for her age, and her pasterns look stronger than the second doeling. For cons, I think rump and width are her biggest.

In the second doeling's defense, her picture is not as flattering than her sister's. I think she does have a bit better front leg placement and brisket extension than doeling #1, but her rump looks steeper, rear legs posty-er, and pasterns a bit weaker. She also seems to lack width.

Can you post pictures of them from the rear?

Overall, I personally would retain the first doeling, but of course it's your decision. 😊

Hope this helps!

Edit: Mellon and I posted at the same time. 🙂


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Yes new pics of sister 2, or both, from the side and rear. 2nd girl has a disadvantage as she's kind of backed against the wall so she is not standing properly. Preferably on a flat surface too so it doesn't make rumps or toplines wonky! 

Pretty girls though!!


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> If possible I'd like to see some more "set up" pictures. If you could get a picture more from the side of the second girl that would be better. Also a rear photo of each would help. From these pictures I like the first girl. I like her top line, her long rump. She also looks very balanced to me. Really, though it might be that the second girl's pictures aren't as flattering.


Do you think girl 1's rump is too steep from this photo? Meaning something to try to breed better on? I'm still struggling to see and understand rumps and how much is too much. Someone told me to try to visualize the angle as the goat is walking for a better idea. Not working for me


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> What pretty girls!
> 
> I really like the first doeling! She just looks better put together and a lot about her blends well. She has a nice topline, brisket, front leg placement, rear leg angulation, body length, neck length, head shape, depth for her age, and her pasterns look stronger than the second doeling. For cons, I think rump and width are her biggest.
> 
> ...


Thanks a ton for your thoughts. I'll try for some better pics. It's like herding cats with the doelings! We don't show so they have zero experience on a lead.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Lilgoatgal said:


> Do you think girl 1's rump is too steep from this photo? Meaning something to try to breed better on? I'm still struggling to see and understand rumps and how much is too much. Someone told me to try to visualize the angle as the goat is walking for a better idea. Not working for me


I know you aren't asking me, but I thought I'd add my two cents. 😉 I do think her (and sister's) rump too steep. From hips to pins, the ideal rump should be _nearly_ level. Key word there is nearly. Here's a link with GREAT conformation info: https://cornerstonefarm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Easy-Dairy-Goat-Conformation.pdf It has really helped me!


Lilgoatgal said:


> Thanks a ton for your thoughts. I'll try for some better pics. It's like herding cats with the doelings! We don't show so they have zero experience on a lead.


No problem! I completely feel your pain!! Stacking goats is HARD! Especially when they don't want to listen or stand still! 🙄🤣 I hope your girls will cooperate better this time. 😁


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Lilgoatgal said:


> Do you think girl 1's rump is too steep from this photo? Meaning something to try to breed better on? I'm still struggling to see and understand rumps and how much is too much. Someone told me to try to visualize the angle as the goat is walking for a better idea. Not working for me


So when we talk about rump angle, this is what we are talking about








Here's an example of what an ideal rump angle would look like:









In my experience, kinders tend to have angled rumps. In my opinion your girl's rump angle doesn't look too bad for a kinder. It's a lot better than my keeper doeling's from this year. Not saying you shouldn't strive for better, but it's really not all that bad. I personally like to see a long rump before I see a level one.


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

In my experience, kinders tend to have angled rumps. In my opinion your girl's rump angle doesn't look too bad for a kinder. It's a lot better than my keeper doeling's from this year. Not saying you shouldn't strive for better, but it's really not all that bad. I personally like to see a long rump before I see a level one.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, wow - the lines you drew are super helpful! Here I am trying to see where the pinbones are on a shaggy bottom...
I see, the ideal is nearly flat. Well I don't get to see much of that here


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

You're welcome!
Yeah, my does aren't anywhere close to level either. It's a goal I have, but it's not one I focus on yet. I'd like to see longer lactations, better udder attachments, and the ability for the does to keep their condition throughout their pregnancy and lactation. Those are just _my _goals though, they might be different for you! 🙂


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

I think the doe pictured is TOO level. They shouldn't be cow straight, but have a bit more of a slight angle. Well, I guess maybe the white doe does have a tad of an angle? I prefer a little more angle than her, my personal choice. When they get too straight like that, it contributes to kidding problems. Just like super steep does, which your girls are not super steep. I agree with Mellon that they look good for a Kinder. Even in mini-Nubians it's not prevalent. Nubians in general have a steeper rump that takes some work to get more level and that's where it comes from, I'm not sure about the pygmy part.

Also like Mellon said, for me its not a focal point. Now it's said that if it's too steep, it gives less area for attachment, Maybe? I haven't noticed it terribly, it does affect the fore and how the udder sits. But, I've never had kidding problems with more angled rumps and it will be a later trait to focus on. Ours are the udder, production, width, and front end.

Sometimes if they are hard to deal with (I have a doe that stomps and stomps and stomps if I try to stack her) it's is easier to get them standing naturally in the pasture or pen. Catch them where they stand kind of set up and get a pic straight on from their sides so it's easy to see the front end through to the back. 

I really like the first girl though, love her length!


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

I agree with all that's been said here.

Their rumps are about as level as I have seen on most Kinders. Pygmies have short, steep rumps and Nubians tend to be angled as well so it's very hard to breed level rumps in Kinders. 

Overall, I like the first doeling better but the second doeling may look better with a better picture. Which is your favorite?


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I know you aren't asking me, but I thought I'd add my two cents. 😉 I do think her (and sister's) rump too steep. From hips to pins, the ideal rump should be _nearly_ level. Key word there is nearly. Here's a link with GREAT conformation info: https://cornerstonefarm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Easy-Dairy-Goat-Conformation.pdf It has really helped me!
> 
> Oh, please do add your thoughts  Thank you!


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

Rancho Draco said:


> I agree with all that's been said here.
> 
> Their rumps are about as level as I have seen on most Kinders. Pygmies have short, steep rumps and Nubians tend to be angled as well so it's very hard to breed level rumps in Kinders.
> 
> Overall, I like the first doeling better but the second doeling may look better with a better picture. Which is your favorite?


I really don't see Kinder's with rumps like the show milk breeds in all the conformation tutorials, so am inclined to agree with you about that. At least I really want to!  Thanks for adding your opinion so I can begin to feel out how steep is too steep for this breed. When I get more pics in the morning I think I'll have a much better idea now what to look for. Both doelings side by side in action look very similar to me - it's hard to tell them apart. Everyone's opinions here have helped a ton! 
I like the personality of doe 1 more. She's solid, confident & independent with more vigor than doe 2. Doe 2 is a family fave because she's lovable and likes to be babied, cuddled, hand-fed and comes across as more delicate which just doesn't appeal much to me  Although she may turn out easier to handle & milk.


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> You're welcome!
> Yeah, my does aren't anywhere close to level either. It's a goal I have, but it's not one I focus on yet. I'd like to see longer lactations, better udder attachments, and the ability for the does to keep their condition throughout their pregnancy and lactation. Those are just _my _goals though, they might be different for you! 🙂


It's nice to hear other breeders goals  We have 2 lines right now with dramatically different goals. Learning rumps may be universal though!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Agreed, first girl would be my pick.


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

alrighty, highs have been below freezing so there's only so much time to pose before I freeze solid. We tried a second set of shots with doeling #2 and most were just comedy. She still has a steep rump  that's confirmed. But some front & back picks, if you can see anything through these winter coats.
@MellonFriend , @Rancho Draco , @Jubillee , @Dandy Hill Farm


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

Here's front. Kinda. Kids don't stand still while you stand in front with a camera.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Those pictures look pretty darn good for all the shenanigans I'm sure she put you through. 🙃

Yep, that is definitely a short, steep rump. She also appears less long in the body than doe one. My pick stands with doeling one!


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> Those pictures look pretty darn good for all the shenanigans I'm sure she put you through. 🙃
> 
> Yep, that is definitely a short, steep rump. She also appears less long in the body than doe one. My pick stands with doeling one!


Yes, it was all fun and games until someone broke the fence :/ Hence no front/back photos of doe 1...


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Yep, the naughty lil' "jail breaker" (doeling #1) is still my fav, too. 😋 The look on her face when she broke the fence is absolutely priceless!! 😄

Doeling #2 still just doesn't blend as well. She seems to lack length in both her body and neck. She is narrow and her rear legs hock in. Her shoulder also looks strange to me in the the side picture of her. In her defense, she has the sweetest face and frosted ears! And I must say, her pasterns look fantastic! Yes, her rump is definitely short and steep, more so than her sisters. Overall, doeling #1 would still be my pick of the two! 🙂


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Oh my gosh that pic of her with the fence is priceless. 

I agree with everyone else here. Doeling #1 would be my pick.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Yes, still going with doeling 1!

Doe 2 is pretty posty and her rear legs turn in. Def steep rump and just doesnt look well put together. The first girl is more pleasing to the eye!


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

Thanks all! Your feedback has been so helpful


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

So do these girls have names? Or do they only get christened when they become permanent residents? 😗


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> So do these girls have names? Or do they only get christened when they become permanent residents? 😗


Oh, yes names... Our kids name everyone  Pirates of the Caribbean this year so these two are Elizabeth (1) and Swann (2). Elizabeth is aptly the doeling queen, so we call her queen Elizabeth.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Awesome names! I love Pirates of the Caribbean. 🏴‍☠️😃


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Yep, the naughty lil' "jail breaker" (doeling #1) is still my fav, too. 😋 The look on her face when she broke the fence is absolutely priceless!! 😄
> 
> Doeling #2 still just doesn't blend as well. She seems to lack length in both her body and neck. She is narrow and her rear legs hock in. Her shoulder also looks strange to me in the the side picture of her. In her defense, she has the sweetest face and frosted ears! And I must say, her pasterns look fantastic! Yes, her rump is definitely short and steep, more so than her sisters. Overall, doeling #1 would still be my pick of the two! 🙂


The prisoner is actually their dam. She's the sweetest girl ever, so the fact that this happened to her & she was just resigned to wear it forever was quite typical  A good photo moment - tho she was rescued promptly!


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