# Doeling's sire has a split scrotum - should I keep her?



## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

As some of y'all know we bought a Nubian doe/doeling pair about a month ago. When we went to pick them up I was able to see the doeling's sire, and honestly at first I thought that he was a doe with a very weird lookin' udder (I hadn't seen his huge head yet, just his backend), because I had never before seen a split scrotum - in person. I didn't think to ask the owner about it while we were there, but now I am worried. The split looked to be about an inch in length, maybe up to an inch and half.

I really, really like this doeling. She is super chunky for her 3 months (my other Nubian doeling was a little wisp of goat at this age). Her dam has a great disposition and - so far - seems to hold her condition well. And although at the moment she (doeling) isn't very tame, she is getting sweeter and isn't as shy as she used to be.

Is there a good chance she will pass this (the split scrotum) on to her future bucklings? I have read that ADGA permits a two inch split, but still I don't really want this in my herd, much as I love this doeling. 

Would love to hear your opinion/input on this. Thanks in advance!

Neblett:


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Keep her
Wether her bucklings


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Agree. Keep her. Wether her buck kids.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

What is a split scrotum? And why is it a bad thing? Oh, and your girls are very lovely but that's one HUGE turkey!


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

this is a split scrotum...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

The important thing is, pick a buck who has genetics with really good scrotum's, in close and down the line if possible, that may take it out. Be very picky who she is bred to. She is a nice looking girl, but it would be a shame if she threw bucklings with splits and have to wether them all. Not a good thing if she has doelings either, that are sold who carry the genetics and the buyer is unaware of the splits. 
So, if breeding her to good scrotum genetics and she still throws them, then I would consider not keeping her.


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Thank you all! I guess I will keep her for at least one kidding, and see what she has.

If/when I sell her doelings I will definitely let the buyer know that their grandsire had a split scrotum.


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Madgoat said:


> What is a split scrotum? And why is it a bad thing? Oh, and your girls are very lovely but that's one HUGE turkey!


Thank you! He is big. It's high time to butcher him, and plus, he is mean now. He chases us behind our backs and tries to attack us (when we turn around he runs out of our reach) and thinks he's a goat. He goes out to "graze" with them and eats their food.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

Okay, thanks for the visual, now can someone tell why its not a good thing?


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I'm on the fence. What does her dam's udder look like? What else does the dam have that you like? Beyond the split scrotum, how is his conformation? That would help sway me one way or another. Without the doeling being set up, it's hard to evaluate her now. As she stands she looks to have a pretty head/ears,ok width but a steep rump and toes out. I would evaluate mom and her conformation at present before making a decision. And agree, wether the bucklings.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Madgoat said:


> Okay, thanks for the visual, now can someone tell why its not a good thing?


It's just a fault.
They aren't supposed to be that way.
He would get a "code" on a linear appraisal for it.
Of course, goats can get a "code" for other things as well.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

I don't mean to be dense, I realize based on this thread and others I've read, this is undesirable, but why? Is it a disease? Does it mean his offspring are deficient, are they prone to some life threatening issues? Is he going to die from it? Get cancer of the testes? I really would like to know, because, my buck's package looks just like the picture provided. Now I am worried about him.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

The picture on the bottom, not the black goat.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Madgoat said:


> I don't mean to be dense, I realize based on this thread and others I've read, this is undesirable, but why? Is it a disease? Does it mean his offspring are deficient, are they prone to some life threatening issues? Is he going to die from it? Get cancer of the testes? I really would like to know, because, my buck's package looks just like the picture provided. Now I am worried about him.


No, none of those things.
It's just not supposed to be that way so it's just a fault.
Just like split teats, or an extra teat for dairy goats. Now that's a major fault that you don't want to pass on. But, it wouldn't mean the goat isn't healthy


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

A buck with a split scrotum is supposed to sire daughters with weak udders. Is it true? I don't know but that is one of the reasons it is a major fault/DQ.


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

I think I read somewhere (when researching a little about this) that if the split in the scrotum gets to be too long, like almost the length of the scrotum, it can affect fertility in buck.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

Well I'm glad to hear it's a fault because someone decided it was a fault and it's not really a "fault". His package's split is about 1 1/2 " long and based on the 5 girls he's sired it didn't effect their udders one bit. He's barely 3 and sired 12 babies, all healthy. Thank you for the explanation.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Madgoat said:


> Well I'm glad to hear it's a fault because someone decided it was a fault and it's not really a "fault".


No it's really a fault
It's not going to cause him any health issues
Just like a split teat
Not a trait you want to pass on to future generations
I mean some one decided an extra teat was a fault too 
Maybe we should trust that you think ?


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

My point is, that for a fault to be a true/real fault it has to cause or be the cause of some sort of damage. My buck has sired all twins and triplets, and all have been very healthy, and with normal teats. The boys testicles before banding were both dropped and looked fine. 
So how can him having this split be a true fault? I have seen the fads of western pleasure horses over the years, which was detrimental to the animal all because "someone" decided "little feet" were desired, I seen horses with their heads tied up all night so when they showed their headset would be below their withers, because "someone" decided that was desired. I've seen gaited horse tails cut so they would set a certain way, all because "someone" decided that was desirable. I've seen many dog breed destroyed because in the show ring a certain "type" was acceptable and all others were "faulty". 
So I'm sorry, I don't and won't call Pogo's split package a "fault". God made him that way, and as long as he's healthy then I'm ok with it. I also have a doe who has given me 2 sets of triplets and nursed them totally on her own and they were fat and healthy, guess what, she has the "fault" of extra teats. They don't work, but they sure don't affect her ability to produce enough milk for 3 babies at one time for 5 months. Nor did a single baby she's had (8) ever had an issue nursing because of her extra teat. None of her babies have the extra teat, not that it would bother me in the least.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It just doesn't look good, depending on severity but they can get ticks and insects lodged in the split, like mites causing issues. 

It may or may not interfere with sperm count, but that is debatable.

A "slight" W is not bad when it isn't really split like pulling 2 halves apart like, but makes a gentle W.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I know it sounds funny, but I swear there is a connection between a buck with an obvious split and him producing does with oddly split or pocket udders. Here it has always seems that the bucks with the nicer kinda udder shaped nuts, produce better udders.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

There's some crazy breed in Asia where the bucks have completely split scrotums & the does have completely split udders--so I guess the same genes cause both. Apparently those goats are able to reproduce & nurse kids OK too.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

TDG-Farms said:


> I know it sounds funny, but I swear there is a connection between a buck with an obvious split and him producing does with oddly split or pocket udders. Here it has always seems that the bucks with the nicer kinda udder shaped nuts, produce better udders.


Thank you for your response, this is interesting. I've looked at my doelings, but I'll check again, especially to one from the doe with the extra teats. My next question is, what is a "better udder" and who decided what the standard for udders is? I know physical deformities can affect nurturing and "look" weird, but does it affect the milk itself? Isn't that 100% of what any udder is for?



catharina said:


> There's some crazy breed in Asia where the bucks have completely split scrotums & the does have completely split udders--so I guess the same genes cause both. Apparently those goats are able to reproduce & nurse kids OK too.


Now this makes sense to me. So it is a genetic thing. I guess my thought is, is it a BAD genetic thing or a VANITY genetic thing. Do you know the name of the breed? I am going to do some more research on this. Thank you!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

ADGA (American Dairy Goat Assoc.) set the standards on conformation. Or at least I am assuming they did as they are the largest and most well known registration. Boers being a meat goat, I am sure have their own standards and could never produce a dairy udder of course. But I would guess the basics of a good udder would all still apply.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

I agree with Madgoat, I had to watch how they force Saddlebred horses to look the way they want them to look to show, it is NOT humane, I had a doe once that had 4 teets, two didn't operate, but I milked her easily she (nor I) ever had a problem with it.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Madgoat, an udder is for producing milk, but beyond that, if you have an udder with poor attachments your doe will not have as long as a productive span as a goat with good attachments. There is also a debate about fertility in a buck that has a split scrotum. If you want a backyard milker then it is not as much as an issue, except in the case of lice, etc. ADGA does not just have undesirable traits without reasoning behind the decision. It is tied to the longevity, health, thriftiness, and production of the animals.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> It just doesn't look good, depending on severity but they can get ticks and insects lodged in the split, like mites causing issues.
> 
> It may or may not interfere with sperm count, but that is debatable.
> 
> A "slight" W is not bad when it isn't really split like pulling 2 halves apart like, but makes a gentle W.


I like that, W for Winner! lol


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

Now let say this, in defense of responsible breeders. I totally 100% agree with researching both dam/sire lines before breeding. The main goal in my mind when someone breeds is you should always look to improve or maintain the breed to it's original standard. And by this, I'm not talking about ubber huge udders, or blue eyes, or corkscrew horns, or color of coat. 
I'm talking about health issues, bad jaws/teeth, weak joints, backs. Hip and knee dysplasia, deafness, bad feet, heart or organ issues, that kind of stuff. Look at the health issues in all the micro mini animals that people just had to have. 
I admire the vast amount of knowledge on this site, and it's obvious that every single member here truly loves their animals, so please don't take what I've posted personally, I am not criticizing anyone. I simply voicing my beliefs regarding "faults" 

Food for thought: How would you feel if we (humans) were critiqued and judged based on some strangers opinion of what we should look like? I know I'd be sent to the slaughter house based on what I've seen that's desirable or acceptable. How about you?


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

goatblessings said:


> Madgoat, an udder is for producing milk, but beyond that, if you have an udder with poor attachments your doe will not have as long as a productive span as a goat with good attachments. There is also a debate about fertility in a buck that has a split scrotum. If you want a backyard milker then it is not as much as an issue, except in the case of lice, etc. ADGA does not just have undesirable traits without reasoning behind the decision. It is tied to the longevity, health, thriftiness, and production of the animals.


X2


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

goatblessings, thank you for the information. I don't have registered stock, nor do I show so I can't debate the pros/cons of what the ADGA's mission is. I do know from breeding Chows and Anatolians that the AKC/UKC really don't care if the dog has two heads or three legs, as long as both parents are registered and you pay the $. 
That being said, when I referenced uber huge udders, I was talking specifically about some pictures/videos I've seen on various sites where the poor goat could hardly walk and the owner was just so proud of how bodacious their goat's udders were. I will due my research on udder attachments, split scrotums, and extra teats so I will be educated about these issues.



goatblessings said:


> If you want a backyard milker then it is not as much as an issue, except in the case of lice, etc.


I don't want to respond to this without getting clarification. Are you saying that does with inferior attachments get lice, whereas does with adequate/superior udder attachments don't get lice?
Yikes!


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

The lice/mite issues that can be a problem with the split is that the parasite gets into the split and causes damage. They are mostly hidden and hard to get treated because they are not easy to reach.

The reason behind blind teats and split teats being a fault or DQ, depending on what it is, is because blind teats that do not function can cause confusion for a newborn kid. They latch onto that teat and get nothing. In severe cold areas, that can mean their death. For split teats, milking can be difficult. Some have an orifice in each split which makes the milk spray in 2 directions. Some of them will not fit into an inflation if you use a milk machine. Some newborn babies cannot get their mouths to seal over a split teat and can starve, same as for a blind teat...or, they get twice as much milk and can choke on it. Extra teats, if growing close by a normal teat, can make it hard to get a good grip to milk, the extra teat gets in the way.

Does with split udders or long horrible teats can end up stepping on them, causing injury that makes milking a problem. They can drag on the ground and cause mastitis. Either can cause a shortened productive live. Poorly attached udders with minimal support will break down over a milking life. A doe with a nice, strong attachment can have a milking career well into her teens with no problems. Poor udders and teats will break down while an animal is in their peak. people with just a few does may not feel this is an issue, but say you can only keep a couple of goats for your household milk supply. You have a couple who are absolute dears, you raised them and love them, but they have udders that are horrid, and they keep injuring them because they drag on the ground. The damage is bad, so you can't breed or milk them. What do you do with these beloved pets? Keep them and have no milk? Sell them? Slaughter them?

Some minor flaws are fine, even some serious ones are ok, but there is a reason for these faults in dairy animals. You can't compare horses or dogs with dairy goats. The tiny hoofs and horrid feet on certain breeds are show issues, not registry ideals. What is a trend in the show world is not what is written in the breed standards. Breed standards were made with a "perfect" animal in mind and as breeders, we are supposed to try to come as close to that standard as is possible. These standards are what makes an animal healthy, strong and able to perform whatever job they are bred to do. When humans decide to stray from these standards (like they have done to ruin so many breeds/species) that's when problems start and the over all breed starts to decline.

I don't show my goats, but I expect them to be the best I can breed, and produce with no health issues well into their teens. I don't want to have to keep replacing my milkers every couple of years because they break down.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

lottsagoats1 said:


> The lice/mite issues that can be a problem with the split is that the parasite gets into the split and causes damage. They are mostly hidden and hard to get treated because they are not easy to reach.
> 
> The reason behind blind teats and split teats being a fault or DQ, depending on what it is, is because blind teats that do not function can cause confusion for a newborn kid. They latch onto that teat and get nothing. In severe cold areas, that can mean their death. For split teats, milking can be difficult. Some have an orifice in each split which makes the milk spray in 2 directions. Some of them will not fit into an inflation if you use a milk machine. Some newborn babies cannot get their mouths to seal over a split teat and can starve, same as for a blind teat...or, they get twice as much milk and can choke on it. Extra teats, if growing close by a normal teat, can make it hard to get a good grip to milk, the extra teat gets in the way.
> 
> ...


X2


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

Lottsagoat, I really appreciate you taking the time to give me specifics / valid reasons for goat 

raising 101. I realize goats, dogs, and horses are all different but I can only reference what I have dealt with or experienced. Your posting is very educational. :bookgoat:

Thank you so much


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Some things that are faults may or may not be a problem for an individual animal but aren't something that you would want to propagate to future generations 
I've had a couple of animals pop up with fishtail teats
They were delicious on the grill
And I never bred the Doe and buck together again


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Tomorrow I'll have to get a picture of one of my does' udder. There is EVERYTHING wrong with it, so it should be educational! I really feel sorry for her--it practically wraps around her legs when she runs. She also has one of what I think is called a split teat--sort of a smaller siamese twin type teat attached to the main teat, with its own orifice. It squirts me in the face unless I cup my hand around it when I milk! Her kids don't seem to like it either--they prefer the other side. As to why a doe like this is being used for breeding (as you are all undoubtedly wondering) 75% to 85% of San Clemente Island Goats have supernumerary teats, so if we only bred the ones with "good" udders we'd lose a lot of valuable genetic diversity, and all 700 & some alive today are descended from fewer than 200 who were rescued from extermination--though that's getting totally off topic.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

We want our goats to be in the best condition so they can be comfortable themselves and raise kids without issues. Some genetic flaws for unregistered goats are OK, some are not. Slight flaws in registered is OK, depending on the issue.
But remember, if that goat has a major flaw, and cannot perform normal life duties and it only makes that goat miserable, that goat should not be bred and pass along those flaws or be subjected to that.
It doesn't mean a death sentence either, the goat can be a pet for someone or companion for another, if the goat isn't perfect.
There are standards we should try to abide by, that makes the goat at it's best.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Mad Goat--the breed is Sahelian. They're from Africa though--I was mistaken.


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