# Cystic Doe



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I have a alpine doe that I suspect is cystic, she cycles every month acts a bit bucky (rubbing on other does, "kisses" the does, fights with bucks), and never gets pregnant no matter how many times she gets bred. I have no goat vets in my area and cystorelin is a RX Med. So I was wondering if PG600 will work on her. She cycles, but never settles. And it would be a crying shame not to get a doe out of her, she is my prize milking, show stopping supreme grand champion ! I sold her last doe 4 years ago and I'm kicking myself for it. I don't even have a buck from her anymore!
So will PG600 work on a short cycling, non settling, possibly cystic doe? If it will what's the dose? I don't know how to use CIDRS (spelling? ) or how to get them.
I've never had a doe with a reproduced problem like this.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you already have it, you can certainly try it. No idea on dose though.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

here is a bit of info I found..

Cystic ovaries occur when the follicles do not rupture and continue to produce estrogen. Heat cycles become become frequent (6-14 days) or nonexistent. Does may exhibit bucky behaviorby riding other does or being overly aggressive. If a doe with cystic ovaries is undiagnosed and untreated, she can become permanently sterile. These does eventually begin to look 'bucky.' If the condition is caught early, *a shot of chorionic gonadotrophin may restore reproductive function.*

If you suspect more than one doe of having cystic ovaries, your feeding program may be at fault. High estrogen levels in sweet clover and some alfalfa, or diets high in calcium and low in phosphorus may cause temporary problems.

There is evidence to support a hereditary predisposition to cystic ovaries from both the dam's side and the sire's side.

Another common theme is a 5-day cycle , a different condition than cystic ovaries. When this happens, the doe has a normal heat and the follicle matures but does not release the egg. The doe has another normal heat 5 to 7 days later, at which time the egg is released. There is diversity of opionion among experienced breeders about eggs not being released on the first of the 5-day cycles - some say that eggs can be released on both cycles and breed on both cycles to maximize the number of conceptuses. This condition may be related to the presence of multiple follicles - some rupture and some don't until the second heat.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

dose for PG 600

no more than 1.5cc ...


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

She comes in about every month for about 3 days. She is normally a normal seasonal breeder like alpines are.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I've not dealt with this but from what I read on the article sounds like you could be on the right track...I hope you work it all out..


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Short cycle, non settling, cystic? 


My first choice would obviously be cystorelin. You can grab some from any large animal vet. Can't remember how far you said though. I don't like PG600 myself, but a lot of people do use it. 

If you want her to settle out, you can call up an AI tech of your choice (cattle). Sometimes we carry hormones under vet consent. Or all a vet. You'll want to kick-start her cycle. I might recommend starting an ov-synch program, (ETA-I personally don't use PG600, as i don't care for it) one that I follow:

Initial: 2cc lutalyse
10 days: 2cc lutalyse
Watch for signs of heat, follow up with the Am/Pm rule for typical AI breeding, or toss her in with the buck on day 8. 

Another that a commercial dairy uses:
Initial: 3cc lutalyse
7 days: 1cc cystorelin
14 days: 3cc lutalyse 
17 days: 1cc cystorelin and breed on this day AI or toss her in with the buck on day 14. 

If you do want to go ahead with the PG600, use 2cc. Try to pair it up with a CIDR if you can. 
Initial: Lute 2.5cc, insert CIDR
11 days: Lute 2.5cc
12 days: remove CIDR, give 2-2.5cc PG600
She should be in heat day 13. Put her in with the buck once you remove the CIDR.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

From what I read...The problem with using too much PG600 is the chance for multiple babies...too many to be vital in some cases...too many for mom to carry ..so a whole new can of worms...Im not an expert by any means....only what i have read...I just don't think I would chance it but def. not more than 1 1/2 cc.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

happybleats said:


> From what I read...The problem with using too much PG600 is the chance for multiple babies...too many to be vital in some cases...too many for mom to carry ..so a whole new can of worms...Im not an expert by any means....only what i have read...I just don't think I would chance it but def. not more than 1 1/2 cc.


Iowa State University suggests 2.5cc. The "safe" range is 1.5-2.5. I stick with 2.5 as I have large standard alpine and Saanen. But then again I don't like to use it either.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I though cystorelin was by prescription only, it was last time I looked. So can you just go to the vets office and ask for them to get some? Or do they have to come out, examine the goat, etc then give you the script? 
The CIDR's only come by the case where I live and they only sell cow size. :/
Mjs500doo.....Why do you not like PG600? Is it the risk of many multiple births?
I haven't used cystorelin before, if I used it she would be able to conceive on the induced cycle right? If I didn't breed her on that cycle would she still cycle monthly or become seasonal again? Would she settle if I bred her in the fall, if I gave her the shot now so she wouldn't be cystic?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I have American Alpines, with a lot of the French influence in their lines. This doe, Peeps, is a smaller girl though. She was 2lbs at birth, tiny girl, but she's about 125-150lbs now. She was the greatest milker I have ever had. And she has SO much personality, great conformation, and great breeding. I'd never forgive myself if I didn't try to get another kid from her.
But anyway, beings as she is a smaller alpine, is the 2.5 too much PG? I already have PG on hand which is why it would be easier for me.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> I though cystorelin was by prescription only, it was last time I looked. So can you just go to the vets office and ask for them to get some? Or do they have to come out, examine the goat, etc then give you the script?
> The CIDR's only come by the case where I live and they only sell cow size. :/
> Mjs500doo.....Why do you not like PG600? Is it the risk of many multiple births?
> I haven't used cystorelin before, if I used it she would be able to conceive on the induced cycle right? If I didn't breed her on that cycle would she still cycle monthly or become seasonal again? Would she settle if I bred her in the fall, if I gave her the shot now so she wouldn't be cystic?


Just call the vet and tell them you need a goat dose of cystorelin. They'll help you if you explain your situation. She would have the same chances of getting bred as cycling normally, and I actually would say slightly higher. Cow size may be too big! Lol Unless your girl is some sort of mutant. 

I personally just don't like PG600 because however many times I hear people's successes, I still prefer to use something I'm very familiar with. Cystorelin, lutalyse, estrumate, CIDR, the like.

There is a chance because you offset her cycle that she may cycle abnormally for a while. She should cycle in the fall, but I would do an ov-synch with your doe. Especially now that you know her history of cystic ovaries.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> I have American Alpines, with a lot of the French influence in their lines. This doe, Peeps, is a smaller girl though. She was 2lbs at birth, tiny girl, but she's about 125-150lbs now. She was the greatest milker I have ever had. And she has SO much personality, great conformation, and great breeding. I'd never forgive myself if I didn't try to get another kid from her.
> But anyway, beings as she is a smaller alpine, is the 2.5 too much PG? I already have PG on hand which is why it would be easier for me.


On a small standard stick with 2cc, on a large standard stick with 2.5cc.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

One more question in the pg600. I have an alpine doe that, every year, kids one single gigantic kid. She has had 4 kiddings and they have all been giant single bucks. Every time she kids they are so big they need to be pulled and they are normally so big they get stuck at the nose and need excessively hard pulling and shifting to get them out. If we didn't assist any of her kidding she'd be dead.
SO if I gave her a bit more than recommended of the PG would she have twins so they'd be smaller and easier to kid? I really don't like how giant her kids are and having to pull them out. By 6 weeks her kid is taller than half her size. They are just monster babies, so I think twins would be better for her because they'd be smaller.
This years buck was 13lbs birth weight, she herself is a tiny, tiny doe. She's only about 100lbs and maybe mid thigh high on me in hight.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Go 2.5cc in this scenario.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Is PG 600, SQ or IM injected for goats? I hear it stings goats and dogs really bad, does it?


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Is PG 600, SQ or IM injected for goats? I hear it stings goats and dogs really bad, does it?


I'm sure it does. I guess (this may sound bad) I don't really care with the animals. They make the same irritated movements when I inject as when I'm done. With younger or "less needle experienced" animals it does sting. You do PG600 IM, as labeled. I do have one customer that swears by SubQ, however. So I feel as if either/or works. Depends on preference.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

The standard rule of thumb is any type of hormones are IM, other types of antibiotics and vitamin/minerals are sub Q.


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