# Help! Initial problem solved, just ongoing stuff now



## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

FF, ND, pushing since 5ish, two legs, right side up, can feel the teeth when i reach in about 3 inches, but i thought i'd feel nose out by the time we got to the knees. Think she only has one, but it could be a different kid, and the head could be back, i just don't know


Am i in trouble, should i call the vet?

I am going to try to bring laptop out to barn, don't know if it will reach or not
may have to run back and check


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Help!*

you need to pull on those legs as she pushes -- if you cant then reach in and grab the kid by its lower jaw and pull (I saved mom and kid this way before)


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

*Re: Help!*

I hope that you have gotten in touch with someone??? I would call a vet... in the mean time there are members here in the emergency section who are willing (and able) to volunteer their time over the phone and try to talk you through it!.

Best Wishes and hope all is well!!! Sorry that I couldn't be of more help to you.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Help!*

she is going to go in and try to reposition the kid - I think its head is sideways or there is a mix up of two kids. She will update everyone or call me if there is anything to report


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

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Prayers sent that way..... :hug: ray:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

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Prayers sent that all goes well, I'm home too my # is in the kidding emergency section.


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## maple hill farm tina (Mar 14, 2010)

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Any updates? How is she? :hug: 
-Tina


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

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I agree....how are things? :hug:


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

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:hug: hopefully everything is okay. kidding can be scary sometimes... just keep calm.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

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I might call -- I havent heard a thing :S


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

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Thank you Stacy for your help. I tried calling the vet and didn't get through, and then I called you. You calmed me down alot.

I tried to get the baby's head around for about 10 minutes. I could feel his teeth at the top which didn't match with the legs facing forward. I still kept thinking it was two goats, but it didn't seem roomy enough for two. I called the vet again, and this time I got through. He asked if i could bring her in - I thought she was getting exhausted - she was putting her head down and closing her eyes, and I was really scared for her, and NOTHING was like what i had read (feel for the head twisted back or whatever - there just was not that much room and the upside down head was really throwing me b/c i just couldn't calm down enough to picture how that could happen.) He was sucking on my finger so i knew he was still alive at that point.

The vet got to his office right after me, so about 30 minutes after I talked to Stacy, and he couldn't find the head at all. I told him where I had felt it (and jokingly said 'it must have a head at least') and he found it, but had trouble maneuvering inside, ended up using the ob snare, and delivered the kid about 30 minutes later - the vet tried his best to revive the kid, but he had died. He was good sized, but the vet didn't feel he was too large for Bailey, it was more likely the fact that he was twisted up inside for too long. He gave Bailey a steroid shot and an antibiotic shot. He seemed really upset about it, but I thanked him for saving Bailey - I was beginning to think I was going to lose her too.

Little Jack was really cute - dark brown and white markings, with two perfect dots on his right side. I was going to bury him tonight, but my one daughter was worried that he wasn't really dead. She started freaking me out too, b/c he wasn't getting stiff, and still felt warm (he just started cooling down) Bailey was not interested in him at all, and when I showed him to the other goats, they got within a foot of him, snorted, and ran away. I wrapped him up and told the kids we would wait until tomorrow.

Everyone is very subdued. Bailey is normally low goat on the totem pole, and the others are not harassing her at all (she is separate now, but when we first got home I needed to clean out the pen, so i put her with the others) The afterbirth was just delivered a little while ago, and I am getting her up to walk periodically (the vet said something about possible nerve damage from the manipulating/pulling, which is why he gave her the steroid, but said i should make her move around) and I am offering her water every hour.

Kids are very upset also. This was not how we pictured the first kidding (or any for that matter) but Bailey was our first goat, and they feel closer to her.

Is there anything else I should do/watch for to make sure she is ok? I am guessing I should start milking her, but that can wait until tomorrow - i am worn out right now. I hope the other goats deliver easily b/c i don't think I can go through this again anytime soon.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

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Im sorry to take so long to respond. I just got back in the house.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

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:hug:
sorry for your loss! the vet sounded like he did a good job, keep up on the antibiotic shots for another 4-5 days. 
I'm glad bailey made it too


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Help!*

Awe I am so sorry :hug: to you and the kids how traumatizing it must have been. Glad Bailey is doing ok. Keep her on the antibiotics for 5 days and milk her out - if you plan on milking her do just that, if you dont want to be milking then you can slowly dry her off.

again I am so sorry


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

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Really? I thought it was just one shot.

I will check with the vet tomorrow. I told him i would call and settle up, he didn't even go in the office except to get water, and he was just getting back from a trip.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

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most antibiotics arent enough as a one time shot for goats. Find out what he used and then I would probably put her on penicillin for 5 days to be safe. After all that maneuvering around inside her you dont want any infection to set in


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## maple hill farm tina (Mar 14, 2010)

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I'm so sorry you lost him, but you did a great job; and I'm really glad the vet was able to save Bailey. That had to be a really scary experience for a first kidding. 
:hug:

-Tina


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Help!*

I am so sorry for your loss... 

I agree... that antibiotics should be given..... for 5 days.....Poor girl and you ...what an ordeal.... :hug:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

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How awful for you to have this happen, I am so sorry the little one didn't make but you still have Bailey and I agree with keeping up the antibiotics. Also, even if you don't wish to milk her, please collect the colostrum and freeze it, you don't know if you or another goat person will need to have it handy.

Bailey is going to be sore and she will be searching and crying for her baby, it's heartbreaking to see and hear but she will be ok...it took my Binkey almost 3 weeks after she delivered her stillborn buck to realize that I wasn't her baby. Give her lots of TLC and make sure that you get some rest too :hug:


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

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Is it bad to save the colostrum if she is on antibiotics?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

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the colostrum wont have antibiotics in it at this point. So yes its ok to save it - good thinking :thumb:

the antibiotics wont be in the milk until like the day after you give it as production is stemmed from the day (or 12 hours) previous.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re: Help!*

She was drinking alot last night, except for the midnight check. This morning she seemed iffy on the drinking, but she was eating hay, chewing cud, moving around. Is it normal for the vaginal area to be really swollen or is it b/c of the hard birth? Should I be taking her temp? Anything else I should do?

In other news, Mink looks more posty than yesterday (and more so than Chara) and has a little mucousy stuff coming out, so she's probably the next to go. Send some prayers our way that this time will be easier. She's had babies before supposedly so it should be old news to her at least. (Im finding it hard to get excited b/c of yesterday's disaster.)

I also noticed last night that both Mink and Chara are GLOWING. Their coats are so black and shiny right now. I'm thinking maybe the copper bolus helped? Does it work really quickly (I think it was about 2 weeks ago that i gave them)


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Help!*

yup take her temp. Thats always good step when a goat isnt acting right.

she may need some banamine for the pain before she feels like eating again. Entice her to drink my making her some molasses water (make it like a muddy brown color, not to sweet but just enough to make her want to drink it).


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

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My TSC said they have penicillin, all three sizes (?)

What dose, what size needle (hopefully the small needle - 22 gauge, i did 20 for the CD/T and it was huge), IM or SQ?

If IM, can someone give 'how to'? I had a friend show me how to do SQ, and she probably would come out here to show me the IM, unless someone is able to talk me through it.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Help!*

Well you can do IM or SQ with the penicillin - since you have a small herd just get the 50 or 100ml of the penicillin

as to the needles get the 20 gauge because the pen is very thick and it goes in easier if you use a bigger needle size.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

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Oh good, i am glad i can do it SQ, i feel better if someone shows me how to do something and then watches while i do it.

Her temp is 101.2, she turned up her nose at molasses water, orange kool-aid, and ACV (which she was drinking last night) so i switched her back to plain, and will keep watching. I do need to go out to Walmart later, should i pick up some pedialyte?

She wasn't really interested in her grain either until i put a few squirts of nutri-drench on, and then she started gobbling it down.

What size dose of the pen for a ND?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Help!*

I would do 1cc per 10lbs though some only do 1cc per 20lbs.

so assuming she isnt a huge ND then 4-5cc should be the dosage needed.

As to her not wanting to eat --- that happends when you feel sore.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: Help!*

Praise the lord the vet was able to save Baily.

She is going to be really sore. I had a doe that it took forever to pull the dead kid. She did not want to eat either so I gave her a B Complex shot. I also gave her any kind of treat she would eat. She loved Shredded wheat, and animal crackers. Offer her lots of fresh water also.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

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She is willing to eat lettuce leaves dipped in water, so i'm hoping she's getting enough fluids.

Had our first milking (hers and mine  Went pretty well, I got 2 cups of colostrum but had no idea if she was 'empty' She was definitely more deflated, I was tired, she was tired, so I thought it was a good quitting point. Does it sound like its enough? She was a very good girl, esp considering i followed it up with her pen shot. We went for a short walk, she ate a bit of grass, but wanted to go back with everyone else.

What does everyone do when freezing? Should I split it into smaller batches? Are the regular freezer ziploc bags okay?

I think i should start a waiting thread. My other two have done nothing but lie around breathing heavy today. Picking at their food. Mink is posty, I am pretty sure both lost ligs already, and their body shape is different. Chara is as lovey-dovey as always, Mink is NOT getting up when i enter the pen (which is very unusual for her) They have moved around a bit, but they are acting 'odd' which last night i chalked up to the stress going on around them.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

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I always freeze it in ice cube trays and then put the cubes in a plastic bag after freezing.

As long as she wants to eat something that's good

The 2 cups amount sounds fairly common for a ND especially if she is a FF.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re: Help!*

So how often should i be milking her? That was my original intention with breeding them, although i thought i'd be waiting til the kids were 4 weeks old or so, and could be w/o mom overnight.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Help!*

You can milk her 2-3 times a day with an even interval between...When Binkey freshened and lost her kid I saved her colostrum from ther first milk out then went to milking at 4 30 am, 2 30 pm and a final milk out at 10 pm...Now, because the milk will have penicillan in it you will end up dumping it but it is importannt to milk her at least 2x a day to keep her production going.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re: Help!*

4:30?

I thought getting up at 5:30 was bad enough during the school year :laugh:

Update: Bailey still not drinking, and I have tried everything I can think of to entice her. (Molasses, koolaid, pineapple pedialyte, honey, ACV) Right now she has plain water and ACV water available. I called the vet at 8:30 b/c she was humping her back and pushing, moaning periodically, only clear liquid coming out, not a lot, but I was concerned - he didn't think there was another kid in there yesterday, neither did I just based on size, but she was giving a good impression of trying to deliver one. We talked for a bit about different options. (me going to him and getting something, me bringing her to him, him coming to us) It had only been a half hour since her last aspirin, and he suggested I walk her a bit, so i did, and she still seemed really uncomfortable, so i just went to his house to get some banamine and gave it to her. I fed her some raspberry leaves dipped in water and she gobbled them up. She must be eating b/c she's pooping alot, peeing some, still extremely swollen. Any idea why she's acting like she's pushing?

btw, i changed the title, b/c i don't want people thinking its an emergency anymore. (Im open to suggestions if you don't like the change)


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

title it whatever you want 

have you given her any calcium drench?


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

No i haven't, should I? Will it help? How much?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

sometimes when a goat is calcium deficient she will have issues with delivery (like you experienced) her disinterest in food is an indication also to me that she could use some calcium.

If you dont have calcium drench then liek 15-20 tums if she will eat them will be good to get into her. Some of mine will eat them others wont


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

I gave her 20 ml (it said 1 oz on the bottle, so about 30 ml, but i thought maybe they meant for full size goats) Doesn't sound like it will hurt her, and it could help. Thanks for the advice.


Morning update: Bailey is up and around. Looks MUCH better than last night. Still haven't seen her drinking water, but i didn't measure the level, she may have taken a drink. She ignored her grain and insisted on leaving the pen. I let her out and she went into her original delivery pen (she refused to go in it the other night and picked a different pen) and was crying and looking for her baby.  Since I had already cleaned the pen for another delivery, I encouraged her to go back to her pen and gave her another banamine injection.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

that sounds good -- if she needs a little more you can give her more today. Hopefully that will continue to perk her up and she will do better. Soon she will adopt you as her kid - at least mine do when I milk them, they even sniff my head when Im milking


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

It's heartbreaking to hear them cry for their babies, my first kid loss was this past March and Binkey adopted me, she would nuzzle my head as I milked her and it seemed like clockwork every night at 6:30 she would cry and cry and this continued for 3 weeks. About all you can do for your Bailey is comfort her.... I did let Binkey see her baby after I pulled him, she seemed to know he was gone and was ok until after she delivered the mummified twin, it was then that she started searching for her kid.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

I really hate the calcium drench. I gave Bailey some more last night and she started choking right away from the first spoonful. Maybe it tastes really bad?

Can i use a calcium gel instead? I like the gels, you just squirt it in, they usually taste good, and I dont get these worrying choking issues.

I tried offering everyone the Tums. Bailey and Mink wouldn't touch them, Chara was eating as many as i would give her. (I think that happened last time i tried too) Bailey used to wait until Jack would try something before she would, so i expected her to refuse them, but I was surprised Mink wouldn't even touch them. One sniff and she said "forget it" (I have the berry flavored ones)


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I wouldnt give her much more calcium drench - if its not helping her now then calcium isnt her issue. yes it burns their throat so they dont like it.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

Can i use calcium gel in the future then? The whole thing about not getting it in their lungs flipped me out, and if they hate it that much, I would rather get an alternative and dump this stuff. (or keep it for extreme last resort)


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

if you get a drenching syringe (cheep from Jeffers) then it wont be as easily gotten into their lungs :thumb:

What is she doing now? whats her temp? is she eating, drinking, pooing, peeing all normally? if so then stop the calcium. I really wouldnt be giving her calcium every day now anyway you can over do it.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

She is eating, i think she's drinking, she is moving around and acting normal. I forgot to get her temp this morning while i had her on the stand. After milking i shaved her down again and did her udder this time - by the time i was done with that i had totally forgotten about her temp.

I only gave her the calcium for a short time. One dose (20 ml) Monday night, and then 10 ml the next morning - i was just thinking about in the future if i need it for someone else. 

The vet never said how long to give the banamine either - i didn't give her a dose this morning b/c she looked okay. She got one dose Monday night, 2 doses Tuesday and Wednesday. Should i finish all that he gave me? 

btw that stuff is EXPENSIVE! What is it, liquid gold? The night i went to get it, he said 10 and i thought he meant $10 and said i'd call the office in the morning to get settled - when the receptionist told me it was $43, i was like, what? he said $10, and she said 10 mls (but it did work REALLY well, so i didn't argue too much)


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

next time as for a bottle of it - some vets will sell you the bottle. 

Some think they should be on it for like 5 days but I usually only give it once unless they need more and their temp is still up. 

I like drench better then the gel - but whatever you have is what you use


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