# Hawks!



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Wow... so we were outside a little while ago, had all 5 of our 5-7 day old kids outside, had just cleaned the barn and were sitting, watching them play when I noticed a bird. We tend to see Turkey buzzards circling and looking for food, but this was a Hawk! 
It was circling, then it's circles got smaller - normally mama's notice and they throw a fit! I wasn't sure at first, but guessed it was a Hawk, then it's circles became smaller so I knew it was eyeing the babies! I yelled at my daughter and the closer it got I waved my arms yelling and covered 2 babies will she hovered over the other 3, and we frantically got them in the barn. Literately, it looked like it was about ready to swoop down and grab one! That was scary!

We've had goats for almost 9 years, and that's never happened. We are watchful of birds, and hover over kids when we see anything in the sky. But never had one act like it was going to grab one.

The kids are about 9.5/10lbs to 15lbs. So I wonder... how big should they be before I don't have to worry about Hawks? I've always wondered that, but never asked.

Makes me thankful the few times we've let week old kids out in the backyard while I watch from the window while cooking dinner. About 10 minutes earlier I was cleaning stalls, and my daughter was dumping the wheel barrow. Thank goodness it happened when we were out there. They definitely won't be unsupervised!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm not sure on the size but definitely a scary moment.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm not sure on the size. We have hawks too, and buzzards. I had a buzzard land and approach a full grown doe who was just sound asleep. (It is incorrect, by the way, that they wait for death. They are fine with helpless.)

A friend of ours, who raises Kikos and chickens, erected areas in her pastures that were covered by strips bird netting. On posts about 4-5 feet high. So the grass got sunlight and rain, but there was safety under the netting. The goats and chickens learned about the safety under the netting strips and the hawks learned to stop swooping and getting entangled. Because apparently they could not easily distinguish between the strips and the non-strips between them.

Could something like that help?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

We have from time to time when MS River gets high, had bald eagles circling our small dogs and cats. Swooping at them will definetly scare you! It all depends on size of hawks, as to how big before no longer interested. Bigger the hawk, bigger the prey.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

I went to a falconry class for about a year (I wanted to have a red tail but never finished the classes) Hawks can carry prey of about 20lbs and they can kill an animal (depending on the birds size and the animal they are attacking) that is up to 35lbs. Generally, it is very rare for that to happen but it is possible. The most common size prey for a hawk (depending on the type) is 3-7lbs. But they will happily take something 10-15lbs if they are really hungry (generally when they are nesting and in the winter when food is scarce or if they are young and not sure what is too big for them yet) Depending on what hawk it was I would probably wait until they are a couple weeks old before you leave them out there. I've never had problems with hawks. That is just what I learned over the period of classes (to make sure we didn't send birds after too large of prey)


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## Bnw (Aug 15, 2018)

We have 2 hawks that have become straight out killers. They've gotten 14 chickens, my 15 year old cat, as he walked across the yard, and are constantly sitting in the tree beside my mama goat pen. I live on pins and needles worrying about them deciding they are tired of just chicken and cat. I have no doubt they can get one of my babies. I am so tired of having to run out the door yelling every time my guineas start raising cane (they are the best watch dogs ever). You definitely need to keep a close eye out!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@SandyNubians That is extremely specifically helpful.

@Bnw Good luck. And I'm sorry about your cat.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

those plastic decoy owls help keep hawks away
we had many chickens taken by many predators, fox, coyote, bobcat and raccoon just to name a few but the hawks are for sure on the top of the list for chicken robbers
we have one that hangs around our road but he is actually pretty tame and looks tempted to eat from your hands!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I'll probably get in trouble for this comment. 3 S's! 

Over my chicken yard, I use the mesh from round bales. When it gets torn, I just get more. We feed rounds, so there is a constant supply of mesh. Hawks avoid it. Even a Bald eagle that swooped down, felt it I guess, flew away.


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## Goat town (May 6, 2018)

I know it’s illegal but I’ll shoot one before he gets my babies


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Where is it illegal to shoot an attacking predator?

Note, I'm not asking where is it illegal to hunt...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It is illegal to kill Hawks in Ohio.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Completely illegal, no matter what they are attacking?


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## Goat town (May 6, 2018)

Oh yes it’s illegal anywhere to kill hawks and eagles I will shoot and bury them though when it comes to my goats


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Fascinating! I did not realize the extent of the protection. I was thinking that the act of killing (livestock) would mitigate that.

Redtails are everywhere here...


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## Bnw (Aug 15, 2018)

Game warden said use the 3 S code. Shoot, shovel and shut up. Lol


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I've never heard of Red tail hawk making off with a full size goat kid. That's the type we have here. Mine have never been attacked and are outside free around 5 days old .My resident hawk does eat my poultry.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

ksalvagno said:


> It is illegal to kill Hawks in Ohio.


and in Texas
https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/...cle_32541510-3009-11e2-b4f0-001a4bcf887a.html


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

In pretty sure it is illegal in most of the us(there may be some areas where it is legal) I wouldn't go as far as to use the 3 S's. The bird didn't actually take anyone. He is simply doing what a large raptor is made for. Hunting, surviving. I often use a saying, you can't tell a wolf not to hunt and expect him to listen. Now if I actually witnessed the bird diving and/or attempting to actually attack a goat. That's when the 3 S's come into play. And so you know I'm not one of those people who are crazy PETA followers. I hunt, I fish, I butcher my own animals, and I've put down pets(horses, dogs, cats) with a gun when we lived out in the middle of nowhere. I'm simply saying this bird was doing all it knows how. It may have been a young raptor or a starving raptor. When it comes to our animals yes, our livestock are much, much more important and we should protect them as we are all they have to do so. Maybe try and call your local fish and game and see what laws are and what you can do if it actually attacks. I know sometime they will allow you to dispatch the animal.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Illegal to kill any type of bird of prey in North Carolina for any reason


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

We've lost chickens to red rails..cant shoot them..but Owl decoy helps.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

@Bnw so sorry about your cat! How terrible!


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## Bnw (Aug 15, 2018)

21goaties said:


> @Bnw so sorry about your cat! How terrible!


Thank You! I walked out the door and he had my cat flat on the ground. Really really bothers me because I keep seeing it. I used to think hawks were a beautiful bird, now I despise them. I understand they are hunters, but these aren't hunting. They just sit in the tree and wait. I doubt they're out catching mice or other small meals.


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## Island Milker (Dec 11, 2018)

Ive Lost 5 ducks to a beautiful river otter. i defiantly didnt want to kill the otter. so we culled the other 2 for ourselves. 
Maybe this is helpful


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Can you eat otter?


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I guess that's the food chain, something is always eating something smaller! In Fla. buzzards would attack cows calving and eat the trying to be born calves' tongues and eyes. For years, "officials" said that wasn't happening . Now they admit it does. In fact, there are buzzards (vultures) in central Ohio doing that same thing. A friend lost newborn goat kids to turkey vultures.


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## Tyno (Jan 21, 2018)

Haha you guys are lucky. In Australia we’ve got these little birds called wedge tailed eagles lol. They’ll attack kangaroos, goats, sheep, dogs, cats, kids, basically anything under about 30kg. Seriously though, amazing birds. Last time we were out in central Queensland we had a massive one flying just above our ute, it’s wingspan was wider than the bonnet. We have 2 that nest not far from our place, they’re big but not that big. I’ve always been worried for the goats but they don’t seem to be interested in them luckily.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

We have red tail hawks here and they have come and checked out the kids but they leave. I found a dead one once and there really isn’t all that much to them. If you have red tail I don’t think you have to worry. Crows/ ravens though are butt holes and meet my Mr Remington. They won’t pack a kid off but will peck them. Dead animals they always go for the eyes first so they freak me out. Plus they have to be pretty nasty. One “magically” died and I went and just dumped it’s dead body in the field. A month later happened to go by it and it’s dead little body was still there. NOTHING would eat it! 
Mariarose I had to laugh about your goat and the buzzards. When I was little I saw all these buzzards around a cow. Went over to see who died. They all flew off and I was trying to see why she died when she opened her freaking eye and looked at me! Jumped up and ran away. She was just sound asleep! Gave me a heart attack. Her name was Buzzard after that lol


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks for all of the comments! Very interesting the different things we have to deal with!
I actually got pictures of the bird right before it started closing in closer and I felt threatened! I'll try to share, but it might be after Christmas before I have time to get them off of the camera.

We've had goats for over 8 1/2 years, and never had to really worry. One time a few years ago a dog did get in a pen and scare the death out of & chase some young does. But thankfully ::knock on wood:: no issues! 
We live next to a busy country restaurant (super popular/busy year round), a close neighbor on the other side. The properties here are narrow and long, we're on the edge of a very small neighborhood out of town. So thankfully, that helps keep issues down with predators. Horse farms around here won't tolerate loose dogs, so people learn to keep their dogs where they need to be.


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

<<< I'll probably get in trouble for this comment. 3 S's! >>>

And I would do the same, Goats Rock !! We don't put everything into our Nubians just to lose kids to birds of prey or any other predator. We did the 3 S's some years ago when our rare breed poultry were being attacked.
camooweal


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

We had a wild duck hatch her eggs on our pond, something (turtle) got one baby and bit about 1/2 the wing of another one. He was such a fighter, but never could fly. So I got him some “girlfriends” and then some other mallards showed up, he was so happy, and I believe he bred one of them and one of his offspring and the mother would stay with him when the others flew off. I named him Nemo (deformed fin/wing). 
Long story short, about two weeks ago, I heard ravens carrying on and got my binoculars and saw an adult bald eagle with a duck in his talons. I figured the eagle caught Nemo sleeping on the bank getting sun. It was the hardest thing I ever done, but I knew that Nemo would have died anyway, and I knew the eagles were nesting and probably needed food for the babies. I went out and picked up what was left, and buried him under the cypress trees where he loved to rest. Surprisingly, the eagle didn’t touch his beautiful head, I guess that’s a hawk move.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

I know it was difficult for you to see Nemo being taken away by the eagle..... I've seen hawks take small game before and it saddens me for the little creature. Once a hawk swooped down for my puppy but had to pull up because of the tree the pup ran under. Thank you for sharing this story because it reminds us of the circle of life. A predator hunts prey to provide itself and sometimes family nourishment. You have an understanding of this and held no animosity towards the eagle for being and doing what nature created it to be.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

NigerianNewbie said:


> I know it was difficult for you to see Nemo being taken away by the eagle..... I've seen hawks take small game before and it saddens me for the little creature. Once a hawk swooped down for my puppy but had to pull up because of the tree the pup ran under. Thank you for sharing this story because it reminds us of the circle of life. A predator hunts prey to provide itself and sometimes family nourishment. You have an understanding of this and held no animosity towards the eagle for being and doing what nature created it to be.


You have no idea how much I appreciate your comment. I still have difficulty dealing with it, but I know that any intrusion I made would have still resulted in his death. At least he died for a reason. I hear about entire flocks being beheaded and bodies just scattered around the coop from raccoons/possums. What a shame/waste.


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## Susan Harriman (Dec 19, 2018)

mariarose said:


> Where is it illegal to shoot an attacking predator?
> 
> Note, I'm not asking where is it illegal to hunt...


Just follow the 3 S's shoot, shovel shut up. Not that I condone killing, but my babies are near and dear to my heart so....


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## SeventeenFarms (Dec 10, 2013)

I have lost chickens now and then to hawks, once a fox, and another time an owl. Ive written these off to the natural course of things, even though it bothered me. We have breeding pairs of eagles in the area, yet I have never had an encounter, other than watching them. There is a red tail hanging around these winter days trying for a chicken, so I don't let them free range when I am not around to be their guard or a "deterrent". I have trapped more raccoons and caught more black snakes (taking eggs) than I can remember, relocating them (fates unknown). The only animals I have ever dispatched are groundhogs, due to the holes they make which could end one of our horses lives with a broken leg. 
Nothing yet has gone after my goats, although I need to admit I do not breed them so I have no kids to worry about. Coyotes are a problem at times in my area, but so far, I haven't needed to deal with them. 
I am not sure if I could do a 3s to an endangered animal, like a hawk or eagle (here, even seagulls are protected with fines and jail terms!). I guess whether or not a 3s would be my reaction would depend upon the circumstance and/or the moment.
This is an interesting thread, as it has made me think about how I have reacted to different threats up until now, and maybe how I would in the future.


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## Devonviolet (Aug 22, 2016)

I haven’t posted before, but found this thread interesting, and thought I would add my $0.02. We have hawks, buzzards, racoons, coyotes and bobcats around here, in NE Texas. Since shortly after we moved here, in late 2014, we have had two amazing Maremma LGDs (livestock guardian dogs). They are now four years old.

Violet, our female does what I call, “guard the sky”. When she sees a hawk or buzzard flying overhead, she gets up on the fence and starts barking toward the birds. Amazingly, they fly away. Since we have been here, we haven’t lost one animal to predators. Our chickens, ducks and guineas all stay in our 8x8 coop and attached 8x16’ attached run with wire fencing over the top.

Just before we moved in here, the previous owners had two hens and a rooster, in an open chicken yard, with a coop. One morning they could only find one hen. Then they found the body, of the second hen, under the coop missing it’s head. I’m told racoons will take the head and leave the body.

Our next door neighbor had 3 hens that he free ranged, during the day. The only dogs he has are two Scotties, that he keeps in the house. Twice, he lost chickens, at the upper end of our driveway, close to his property. The second time, I found the feathers, in the driveway, and looked for prints, for a clue to what took his hen. Not too far from the feathers, I found a big cat print, so I’m assuming it was a bobcat. We have our hens free ranging in our side yard, with a four foot perimeter fence, and I’m pretty sure the reason we haven’t lost any birds, to predators, is that the dogs start barking and they keep their distance. Just a while ago (midnight), I heard the coyotes howling in the distance. Then I heard one of the dogs howling, to let the coyotes know this is their territory and they had better stay away. The coyotes got real quiet, real fast! (rofl)

Our two dogs have an amazing system. Violet is our “patroller”. She patrols the perimeter, of the pasture. Deo stays close to the goats. If Violet gets up on the fence and barks in a certain way, Deo herds the goats into the goat shelter, and stands across the opening, until Violet stands down. Then Deo lets the goats out. It’s amazing to watch them in action. Sometimes they both patrol, sometimes Deo stays close to the goats.

Even so, I have a tendency to be very protective of the kids. Until they are three months old, I am with them at all times, when they are out in the pasture. Then, at night, we have an enclosed 8x16’ chicken run, with 2x4 welded wire fencing over the top, to keep owls out at night. We put the kids in there, at night, so they are safe from sky predators. That story about the hawk sizing up the kids and getting too close, for comfort, was way too scary! I’m so glad you were there to get them to safety in time!!!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Devonviolet said:


> I haven't posted before, but found this thread interesting, and thought I would add my $0.02. We have hawks, buzzards, racoons, coyotes and bobcats around here, in NE Texas. Since shortly after we moved here, in late 2014, we have had two amazing Maremma LGDs (livestock guardian dogs). They are now four years old.
> 
> Violet, our female does what I call, "guard the sky". When she sees a hawk or buzzard flying overhead, she gets up on the fence and starts barking toward the birds. Amazingly, they fly away. Since we have been here, we haven't lost one animal to predators. Our chickens, ducks and guineas all stay in our 8x8 coop and attached 8x16' attached run with wire fencing over the top.
> 
> ...


I have seen Pyrenees Mountain Dogs patrolling like that, it is fascinating. I haven't seen dogs watching the sky, over here there is not really a "huge" vista of sky with all of the tall trees.


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## Devonviolet (Aug 22, 2016)

Dwarf Dad said:


> I have seen Pyrenees Mountain Dogs patrolling like that, it is fascinating. I haven't seen dogs watching the sky, over here there is not really a "huge" vista of sky with all of the tall trees.


Our Maremma's are very similar to Great Pyranese, in the way they guard their livestock. They also guard the trees. Last week they pitched a fuss. We have learned the difference in their bark, and we could tell there was an intruder. So, we went out on the porch,, to see what was up. And it literally was UP! There was a stork in the big tree on the edge of the chicken yard. When we came out, it flew out of the tree and went across the goat pasture. Both dogs were on high alert and chased it the whole way, until they reached the fence and could go no further - barking all the way.

In the past couple of weeks, they have been doing their alert bark at night. As we do when we hear that bark, we take our powerful flood light and go out to see what they are barking at. Usually it is a coyote in the farmer's hay field, or an armadillo in our front yard. But, lately they have been barking at something up in the big tree next to the goat shed. We shine the light into the tree, but we can't see what is there. However, I strongly suspect there is a owl up there, and the dogs are warning it off.

I also suspect that if they could get ahold of it, they would kill it in a heart beat, as they have killed armadillos, opossoms, gohers and snakes, that had the misfortune of straying into the goat yard.

Since I am so new here, y'all haven't seen our pretty babies. Maremmas are a bit smaller than Great Pyranese, weighing in at around 100 pounds.

Here is Deo standing up at the gate, which is 4 feet high. That makes him about 5-1/2 feet tall.









This is a recent photo I took, of Deo, when I was at the back of the pasture.









This is Violet, watching our 9 month old twin LaMancha doelings play on the tree log we left there, so they could play on it.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Pretty dogs. She looks very attentive to what the twins are doing.

Wow. In Australia, Marrema's are being used to protect endangered penguins


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## Devonviolet (Aug 22, 2016)

Thanks @Dwarf Dad. They are amazing guardians. I wasn't aware of Maremmas being used to guard penguins. They are perfect for the job!

Earlier I said that our two kill snakes. Here they are going after a 6 foot king (rat) snake that was in our coop eating eggs that our turkey hen was sitting on. She had at the snake first, then the dogs got their turn.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

This certainly is an interesting thread! You read so much about dogs gone bad that it is great to see how well trained dogs work! 
PS. Beautiful dogs!


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## Devonviolet (Aug 22, 2016)

Thank you, @Goats Rock! Maremma's are beautiful dogs. Yes, we have put work into training our dogs. However, I also did a great deal of research and bought dogs, that were well bred, for being effective guardians. For them, alot of what they do is instinctual, based on their breeding. Maremmas were bred in the Abruzze mountains of Italy, to guard sheep kept by shepherds in the Italian Alps. I left them with their mother longer, than most people leave their dogs. Their mother was an LGD that guarded alpacas. By leaving them with their mother, until they were five months old, they got extra training, which I believe gave them a head start guarding our ND goats when they arrived.

An important thing, to note about LGDs, is that they are "working dogs". They are not pets - even though it is encouraged to love on them, so they know they are appreciated. However, since they are working dogs, they stay with their livestock 24/7, and have never been in the house. Although, some LGD owners do allow their dogs in the house, when others are on guard. They do most of their work at night, staying alert to keep predators away, in the dark. During the day, they tend to sleep after we are out and about the farm yard, because they are confident that we will protect their animals when they are asleep. We are also a part of their team. They know that if they bark an alert (while we are awake, even at night) we will come to their assistance, with a flashlight and/or the 22.

Here is a link to the Maremma Club, which has some good information about Maremma's:

maremmaclub dot com/maremma-faq dot html

Our dogs are siblings and are purebred. They have a father (on their father's side) and grandfather (on their mother's side), who were imported from Italy.

I left Violet and Deo with their mother longer than most people leave their dogs. With LGDs it is common to leave them 10 weeks. I left them 20 weeks. Their mother guarded alpacas. By leaving them with their mother, they got extra training, which I believe gave them an extra head start guarding our ND wethers, when they arrived. Of course, we had to teach them manners. But, most of what they do is bred into them, like Violet patrolling the perimeter and Deo herding the goats into the goat shed, when there is a threat. We didn't teach them that.

Here they are shortly after I brought them home from Kansas on Valentines Day in 2015:








As a friend once said, Violet (red collar) is very feminine and Deo (black colllar) is very masculine. That is still true today. Although, Violet is alpha and Deo follows her lead. From what I can tell, it is very common for the female dog to be the alpha. (rofl)

I personally believe, it is important to have at least two LGDs, because they each have a job and work as a team, as Violet and Deo do. I consider it a worthwhile investment, as part of livestock management, to protect my animals from the everpresent threat from predators. While they are very affectionate with us and our friends. I have no doubt that they wouldn't hesitate to tear a predator limb-from-limb, should it decided to try to get one of our animals.

Here, they are running the fenceline together, but if there was a threat, Violet would jump up on the fence and warn off the predator and Deo would herd the goats into their shelter, and stand in front of the opening until the threat was gone. Interestingly enough, I have seen the goats hightail it to the goat shed on their own, when Violet or Deo sound the alarm.









There have been cases of only one LGD, where the part of the coyotes or wolves draw the dog away from the livestock, and the remaining predators circle around and start killing the livestock. So, it is important to have two LGDs, to stop the ones that circle around.


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## Sticklady (Jul 2, 2017)

HoosierShadow said:


> Wow... so we were outside a little while ago, had all 5 of our 5-7 day old kids outside, had just cleaned the barn and were sitting, watching them play when I noticed a bird. We tend to see Turkey buzzards circling and looking for food, but this was a Hawk!
> It was circling, then it's circles got smaller - normally mama's notice and they throw a fit! I wasn't sure at first, but guessed it was a Hawk, then it's circles became smaller so I knew it was eyeing the babies! I yelled at my daughter and the closer it got I waved my arms yelling and covered 2 babies will she hovered over the other 3, and we frantically got them in the barn. Literately, it looked like it was about ready to swoop down and grab one! That was scary!
> 
> We've had goats for almost 9 years, and that's never happened. We are watchful of birds, and hover over kids when we see anything in the sky. But never had one act like it was going to grab one.
> ...


I have hawk issues occasionally, also had a fox snatch my chickens in broad daylight! The fox I could legally shoot to save my remaining flock. I have Guineas now & they alert me to everything new. But to protect my critters from sky predators I tied several CD's together & tied them in the trees & buildings using fish line so they twist & move with slightest breeze. For a little noise I tied a few plastic grocery bags in trees around my coop & goat area...high enough so the goats don't get them. I move them around every couple week or so and haven't had any issues in months!


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