# Serious objective opinons needed



## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

Can you guys look at these two pictures. These goats are in this pen all day, they cry all day, the water is rarely changed (have been freezing water temps), the two buckets have been laying down that way in the pen for two days. Have not seen anyone in two days although I know they are home. When they do feed alfalfa, they just throw it in the pen once a week or more and leave. They are young kids (20's and she is a supposed nurse). These people just (my opinion)don't properly take care of these goats. From what I've been reading on this forum, aren't they supposed to be fed twice a day and always have water available? Are goats just livestock to be treated any way the owner chooses? They have those face harnesses on all the time. I really need an unbiased opinion.

thanks...


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I can't really tell their care from the pictures ... I'm sorry


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

Where's their shelter? Yes they should have fresh water everyday and a variety of foods. I spoil my animals so I can be a little biased but if you think it looks bad I would make a call!


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

they aren't skinny, a friend said they look sickish.... My concern was how they are treated (fed, cooped up, etc.)


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

Jodi_berg said:


> Where's their shelter? Yes they should have fresh water everyday and a variety of foods. I spoil my animals so I can be a little biased but if you think it looks bad I would make a call!


I did to the livestock inspector. He stated " If they are lonely and crying I don't care as long as they have food and water". He told me very rudely, they are livestock not pets. That silver container is rarely changed or filled. My buckets for mine are frozen in the am, so I know that their water isn't good. I just wanted opinions, I guess I'll just mind my own business.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

It's very sad ... there are many times I pass animals and want to snatch them away, but sadly as long as the basic needs are being met ...


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> It's very sad ... there are many times I pass animals and want to snatch them away, but sadly as long as the basic needs are being met ...


That's my dilemma...how do I know if their basic needs are being met when they are only getting their water changed every few days and a flake thrown at them once a week? Don't they need exercise? Isn't their crying all the time a sign something is wrong?


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

Jodi_berg said:


> Where's their shelter? Yes they should have fresh water everyday and a variety of foods. I spoil my animals so I can be a little biased but if you think it looks bad I would make a call!


There is no shelter, what you see is it! They are just like that during the freezing cold, 40 MPH winds and heavy rain. No where to stay warm.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I'd call it in and let ASPCA (if you have one there.we don't where i'm at) and let them decide if they are being mistreated.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

JaLyn said:


> I'd call it in and let ASPCA (if you have one there.we don't where i'm at) and let them decide if they are being mistreated.


Don't have an ASPCA....I called the national line one time on something...they told me sorry we can't help you, we don't have an office near you. My job requires me to take calls for them for donations, I refuse. I don't believe in ASPCA and all the BS they have filming on TV is just that TV. Same for Humane society. BS

I also have it on my surveillence camera, three of the dogs over there surrounding the pen lunging and barking twice, and nobody does anything. They get really angry if I get involved in their business and the "father" of the compound has already threatened to shoot my dogs... does the sheriff do anything... Nope!


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Alrighty then..but i think you get what i mean..


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Call PETA Im only half joking.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

nancy d said:


> Call PETA Im only half joking.


:crazy::crazy:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

If you really wanted to, you could call the sheriff's department. I can't really tell anything from the photos except for a small pen and no shelter. Looks like they've got some alfalfa hay in the pen. Doesn't really look like they're being properly cared for, but for law enforcement to actually do something, the goats would have to at least be without food and water.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

KW Farms said:


> If you really wanted to, you could call the sheriff's department. I can't really tell anything from the photos except for a small pen and no shelter. Looks like they've got some alfalfa hay in the pen. Doesn't really look like they're being properly cared for, but for law enforcement to actually do something, the goats would have to at least be without food and water.


Sheriff dept here doesn't have time for this stuff. It took three years for them to take away horses from an unfit owner after complaint after complaint. It would be hard to prove how long they are without water and food, as I can't get close enough to prove with a date stamp on the camera. The sheriff dept doesn't do anything with photos like that anyway. Only on TV LOL


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

PETA doesn't rescue animals. They are another tax front. Except that they will shoot doctors and turn lab animals into the freezing street in the middle of winter to call attention to themselves. They were sited a few years ago for shooting 50 rescue dogs and leaving them in a dumpster behind a Safeway store.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

goathiker said:


> PETA doesn't rescue animals. They are another tax front. Except that they will shoot doctors and turn lab animals into the freezing street in the middle of winter to call attention to themselves. They were sited a few years ago for shooting 50 rescue dogs and leaving them in a dumpster behind a Safeway store.


What happened to their bleating hearts?


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

I have worked for United Way and did audits for the non profits for 8 years My experience is that most all non profits, including animal non profits, are to provide a way of living for the people and minimal care for the animals... There is one animal rescue here that is NOT non profit and she is a German citizen and wants you do donate to take care of the animals. She says because she isn't american she can't get non profit status.... OMG


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Whoops - SOMEHOW they got loose and you didn't see ANYTHING or know where they went *wink*


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

kelebek said:


> Whoops - SOMEHOW they got loose and you didn't see ANYTHING or know where they went *wink*


my friend suggested that same thing .... I was wondering why they don't just jump out or push the fence over. Unfortunately, they are ******** ( probably would define as hillbillies, inbred) LOL and all the family lives together on the compound behind me...so I don't think I'd get away with it. My friend (who has goats) asked me how to get over there . I said good luck LOL ... you can see my property is clean there's littered with trash and they don't clean it up. When the wind blows their crap and beer cans and walmart bags in my yard, I toss it back over the fence into theirs .. I said good luck ... if they got loose, I can't have them here, they would see them with mine. Needless to say, I don't get along w/ those kids with a history of calling the sheriff all the time with their blasing music. sorry, got off topic


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Umm. what's the law on nonrunning vehicles all over your yard there? Here you'd get a $5000 ticket.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

goathiker said:


> Umm. what's the law on nonrunning vehicles all over your yard there? Here you'd get a $5000 ticket.


That's what I'm saying...... county code enforcement does absolutely nothing. small town political BS! Trust me I've tried to think of all angles... you're supposed to get a ticket as well, unless it's who you know who you ahem..


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah, the good ole boys club. We have one here too. Not much a person can do about it.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

goathiker said:


> Yeah, the good ole boys club. We have one here too. Not much a person can do about it.


I know it's crap. city girl mixed in with country bumpkins :hammer:


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

kelebek said:


> Whoops - SOMEHOW they got loose and you didn't see ANYTHING or know where they went *wink*


 ..i have a neighbor that totally neglects their animals..no one will do a dang thing..they had a small dog (won't say waht kind) wonder in my yard..somehow i heard that dog was living in a whole other town..far away..not sure how that happened:wink:


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

JaLyn said:


> ..i have a neighbor that totally neglects their animals..no one will do a dang thing..they had a small dog (won't say waht kind) wonder in my yard..somehow i heard that dog was living in a whole other town..far away..not sure how that happened:wink:


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

I think you might be a bit rash there... Don't be so quick to judge others. What you consider "proper" care isn't the same as someone else. If the goat's are not skinny, have food and water, and don't appear injured...then leave the poor owners be. So what if their property is a pig sty? Thats their business and not yours. Sorry to sound so rude, but just because a goat has to stay in a small pen instead of a huge pasture doesn't mean its being mistreated. There is more than one, so they have companionship. I DO think that they should have a shelter, and in some areas shelter from the elements IS a requirement, so I would see if you could look that up in your county. They should be fed more than it sounds like they are but thats just my personal opinion, and if they are in good weight they obviously aren't starving ...I'm not going to force my way on others if they are not neglecting/abusing their animals. They could be feeding moldy grass hay with little nutrition (what people around here call "cow quality" when it really, really isn't), but it sounds like they are springing for a higher quality food in using alfalfa. Just because they aren't spoiled, or aren't on a regular schedule...doesn't mean the people should be judged so harshly. Now if it pours rain there and the poor things have to stand in it, thats a reason to call some sort of autority to give them a talking to (IMO..) But other than that, unless you see those animals losing weight or limping around or looking like they are dying...leave the poor people be. Some goats just don't shut up much. If you are bothered by the constant noise, thats a complaint for the police I'd think (a noise complaint...) but should have zero to do with the care of the animals and everything to do with you getting some peace and quiet.

Sorry, but I'm a *******. I don't have a filthy yard, but I would actually like a nice rusty car or two out in the pasture someday (not in with the animals) because I think they can look pretty cool if you have the right kind. I do go overboard with my goat/horse/dog care and they are spoiled as all get out, but I'm still a "hillbilly" as horrid as you make that sound...and I'm quite offended by your tone..calling people ******** and saying that ******** are inbred hillbillies or inferring you are somehow superior because you're stuck with "country bumpkins" isn't very nice at all. I'm sorry some people like to leave rusty cars in their yard and don't have a pretty green lawn..that doesn't give you the right to say nasty things about them because you don't agree with their lifestyle. It isn't hurting you besides making you disgusted to look at it, so you could always just look the other way or move somewhere else, like back to the city. Those people who lived out there before you got there choose that lifestyle and there isn't anything wrong with that. Sorry to sound so harsh, I don't want to get angry or sound like that. I know this is a friendly forum that does not allow fighting, so I'm sorry if I come off that way.

I also don't think its right that someone would steal another person's animal because they don't agree with the way that animal is being raised. If they are neglecting/abusing it then that is one thing. But taking another person's animal because it isn't being pampered is appalling (not to mention illegal.) Not saying anyone here has done that...in the situation of the dog mentioned he/she could have very well have been severely neglected to the point of harming the animal...and that case is different. But I've heard of people taking animals because the owner didn't get a dog all of its shots or give it heart-worm medicine (but the dog was well fed and housed). In other words, someone else disagreed about the level of care necessary even though the animal was in good health, and stole it. Thats wrong, sorry.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

goathiker said:


> Umm. what's the law on nonrunning vehicles all over your yard there? Here you'd get a $5000 ticket.


Hard to enforce when most of New Mexico outside of cities looks like that. Lol. And it isn't hurting anyone, so no one wants to be a PIA and bother people needlessly just to make one or two poeple happy who are bent on everything looking tidy in the middle of the desert. Man, all the people in Idaho where my mother lives would be in so much trouble for their piles of junk, AND for their "*******" animal pens/care if some of the opinions on this thread were to be followed. The whole town would be fined over and over, maybe thrown in jail..their animals would be taken. Unless they are hurting someone or actually hurting/neglecting the animals I think people get way too sensitive and put their nose where it doesn't go. I would be mad too if people were coming to my house and getting in my business, telling me I must change the water buckets every day and keep my dogs away from my goats fences or else have the sheriff called on me. I'd be livid actually.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

firelight27 said:


> I think you might be a bit rash there... Don't be so quick to judge others. What you consider "proper" care isn't the same as someone else. If the goat's are not skinny, have food and water, and don't appear injured...then leave the poor owners be. So what if their property is a pig sty? Thats their business and not yours. Sorry to sound so rude, but just because a goat has to stay in a small pen instead of a huge pasture doesn't mean its being mistreated. There is more than one, so they have companionship. I DO think that they should have a shelter, and in some areas shelter from the elements IS a requirement, so I would see if you could look that up in your county. They should be fed more than it sounds like they are but thats just my personal opinion, and if they are in good weight they obviously aren't starving ...I'm not going to force my way on others if they are not neglecting/abusing their animals. They could be feeding moldy grass hay with little nutrition (what people around here call "cow quality" when it really, really isn't), but it sounds like they are springing for a higher quality food in using alfalfa. Just because they aren't spoiled, or aren't on a regular schedule...doesn't mean the people should be judged so harshly. Now if it pours rain there and the poor things have to stand in it, thats a reason to call some sort of autority to give them a talking to (IMO..) But other than that, unless you see those animals losing weight or limping around or looking like they are dying...leave the poor people be. Some goats just don't shut up much. If you are bothered by the constant noise, thats a complaint for the police I'd think (a noise complaint...) but should have zero to do with the care of the animals and everything to do with you getting some peace and quiet.
> 
> Sorry, but I'm a *******. I don't have a filthy yard, but I would actually like a nice rusty car or two out in the pasture someday (not in with the animals) because I think they can look pretty cool if you have the right kind. I do go overboard with my goat/horse/dog care and they are spoiled as all get out, but I'm still a "hillbilly" as horrid as you make that sound...and I'm quite offended by your tone..calling people ******** and saying that ******** are inbred hillbillies or inferring you are somehow superior because you're stuck with "country bumpkins" isn't very nice at all. I'm sorry some people like to leave rusty cars in their yard and don't have a pretty green lawn..that doesn't give you the right to say nasty things about them because you don't agree with their lifestyle. It isn't hurting you besides making you disgusted to look at it, so you could always just look the other way or move somewhere else, like back to the city. Those people who lived out there before you got there choose that lifestyle and there isn't anything wrong with that. Sorry to sound so harsh, I don't want to get angry or sound like that. I know this is a friendly forum that does not allow fighting, so I'm sorry if I come off that way.
> 
> I also don't think its right that someone would steal another person's animal because they don't agree with the way that animal is being raised. If they are neglecting/abusing it then that is one thing. But taking another person's animal because it isn't being pampered is appalling (not to mention illegal.) Not saying anyone here has done that...in the situation of the dog mentioned he/she could have very well have been severely neglected to the point of harming the animal...and that case is different. But I've heard of people taking animals because the owner didn't get a dog all of its shots or give it heart-worm medicine (but the dog was well fed and housed). In other words, someone else disagreed about the level of care necessary even though the animal was in good health, and stole it. Thats wrong, sorry.


Sad thing is you don't have to listen the goats cry all day and night and it's disheartning they don't care about anything except themselves, which is this culture now and how ignorant these jerks really are. I've seen them shoot dogs just for crossing their property without cause. I never said I was going to steal anything. I think your post is a bit rude and insinuating. You sound like a hillbilly not a *******. It seems you did not read my initial post very carefully. It was an opinion on the pictures and care of goats. I have never said anything to these people, except when they infringe on my rights and cause me not to work.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

firelight27 said:


> Hard to enforce when most of New Mexico outside of cities looks like that. Lol. And it isn't hurting anyone, so no one wants to be a PIA and bother people needlessly just to make one or two poeple happy who are bent on everything looking tidy in the middle of the desert. Man, all the people in Idaho where my mother lives would be in so much trouble for their piles of junk, AND for their "*******" animal pens/care if some of the opinions on this thread were to be followed. The whole town would be fined over and over, maybe thrown in jail..their animals would be taken. Unless they are hurting someone or actually hurting/neglecting the animals I think people get way too sensitive and put their nose where it doesn't go. I would be mad too if people were coming to my house and getting in my business, telling me I must change the water buckets every day and keep my dogs away from my goats fences or else have the sheriff called on me. I'd be livid actually.


 I hear you, but everyone in this area, village, has clean kept yards clean of debris, except them. If consititutes a hazard harboring snakes, rats and mice, fire. I guess the part that gets me is she is a supposed nurse and is she lives like a pig, god forbid her patients.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Sorry to hear this person lives that way and doesn't try to keep their place clean or take care of their animals.
Sadly, unless you can prove the animals are being mistreated or skinny, etc. there isn't a lot you can do.
If they are just crying, that isn't grounds enough to say anything except that they are bothering you.
If it's storming, raining, snowing, etc. and they don't have shelter, IMO that is grounds enough to turn them in too. Get video of a storm and them with no shelter...video will say more IMO than a photo.

Do you know if they are being kept as 'meat' goats, or pets? If they are meat goats I can kind of understand them not spending any time with them, etc. but if they are pets....well that's a shameful way to treat a pet.

Sadly, not everyone thinks of animals in the same, loving manner...wish they did, there would be a LOT less neglect and mistreatment if they did.


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## S+S Homestead (Jul 23, 2012)

We live in a very rural area and understand what your frustration about there being no "authority" to call to get these people to give the goats a basic level of care. Water is a really big concern and they should have water at all times. The concern will increase to a critical level during the summer. How long have these people had the goats? Do you know the age of the goats? Are they the right size for their age? Young bottle fed goats who are stuck in a situation like that would likely cry all the time. 

Those goats also need some basic shelter. Protection from the wind and rain and also the sun. Even just a tarp would be better than no shelter at all. Could you possibly take a positive approach and offer to help them build a basic shelter? A simple three sided shelter with a water proof roof is easy to build with a few wood pallets and a tarp. 

Assuming these people are new to goat ownership, maybe offer gentle advice from somebody who is more experienced? If the goats are crying all the time it must be annoying to them as well. Make suggestions in a positive way that could help make the goats stop crying. I realize it is probably impossible to have a civil conversation, but thought I'd throw out the suggestion anyway.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Sorry, but I shall quote you: " Unfortunately, they are ******** ( probably would define as hillbillies, inbred)" ... Excuse me if I think this kind of nasty judgement is rude and un-called for, but it is. Just because you don't like the people... I guess if you think I sound like I'm a hillbilly, that it means I'm inbred according to your own comments? Again, a quote: "I know it's crap. city girl mixed in with country bumpkins..." Thats very derogatory towards "hillbillies." 

And I agree I don't know the situation but when you say, " how do I know if their basic needs are being met when they are only getting their water changed every few days and a flake thrown at them once a week " I will assume their water IS being changed every few days because you say it is. In which case they DO have water and from the photos posted seem to have alfalfa and what looks like a big water tub? I'm not saying they aren't being mean and not feeding/watering their animals, I obviously am not there. And I DO think they at least need a shelter. But if the animals are not skinny or hurt, and they ARE indeed changing water every few days (meaning the animals obviously have water) and they are throwing enough alfalfa over the fence (which they must be if the animals are not thin..) then I don't see anything wrong with their care...just a neighbor who doesn't agree with how they do things and feels the need to insert themselves in their neighbor's lives. Again, it could be much worse than all that, but based on the information provided and the photos that would be my conclusion.

And now I walk away, because I know fights aren't allowed here like they are on my horse forum. Lol.


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

I agree they need shelter. That would bother me. They don't look thin from the pictures so they must be getting fed at some point, perhaps they are feeding before or after dark due to work hours? I'm sure my neighbours never see me do chores except on weekends.

I do agree with firelight, though, that the name calling is offensive. They may be low class, and may have unacceptable animal husbandry practices, but this isn't because they are country people, which your "city girl mixed in with country bumpkins" sure seems to imply. I'm sure you didn't mean it to be hurtful but a lot of us country people are pretty sick of folks making it sound like we are somehow a lower class of citizen because we weren't raised in the city. I'm sure you didn't mean it to come across like that but it can and does. Just something to consider for the future.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

There's been a lot here. I think some of the key points is yes it sounds like they have food and water, like mentioned maybe you don't always see when they feed. As also mentioned they may be crying if they were bottle babies. Yes I agree they should have some type of shelter no matter how basic, and the offer to them they may or may not accept but it's worth a try. My neighbor does not take great care of his animals and it's extremely frustrating to me (he's kind of a friend to my husband so it's tough). When I noticed 3 of his goats with scours I said " hey I noticed scours do you care if I give them medicine for a 5 day period" His reply no I don't care. So for me it was kinder to the animals to treat knowing he wouldn't. I'm not saying everyone should take on someone else's animals, it was just a easy fix in this situation for the goats sake. 
I do agree with firelight, some of the comments should have been filtered, this is a friendly group and has youngsters on it. We may not always agree but we need to respect others. My husband grew up a red neck, I between the city and the country- so I guess I'm a little of both. Not all ********, hill billys are trashy people and that is what was implied. Please keep it kind and filter before typing. Have a safe holiday to all.


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## Squires (Sep 14, 2010)

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY! 

I just have to comment on this. Prior to the entire USA being electrified in the mid-20th century, and most people getting hot and cold running water, people watered their animals TWICE A DAY. They walked their animals to the local creek or well to be watered. Still, today, there are goatherds and shepherds who herd their animals across open lands (IN THE USA, too, mind you) and they may only see liquid water every 2nd or 3rd day.

GOATS ARE DESERT ANIMALS - -they are not dogs and they are not humans.

GOATS ARE RUMINANTS - -they have four stomachs, they like to eat constantly between periods of ruminating (chewing cud to help digest it) but they do not NEED to eat constantly or regularly. They are grazers -- they fill up when they run into food. A rumen full of hay can keep them quite happy and healthy for at least THREE DAYS in the worst weather you could imagine. They do not need regular meals of grain unless they were taught to "need" regular meals of grain -- like some children are taught that they are going to just die if they don't get all the toys or candy they want.

Goats DO need windbreaks. That pen in the picture seemed to have plenty of them - - such as the rough ground with vegetation around them. The rusty old trucks and cars constitute windbreaks. If the temperature drops much below 40 degrees F, some of the hot-weather goats, such as Nubians, may be less comfortable, but if eating enough hay, they are not going to get sick. If temperatures drop below freezing they are not going to get sick. 

Goats do NOT need grain. The food that helps them keep warm is HAY which fuels their rumen to keep producing heat like a furnace. The photos do not show what appear to be high-production commercial milkers, fatty show goats or pets -- they appear to be natural caprine animals. 

As for crying? Some goats are just bred to be neurotic -- I have Nubians that cry when they hear me coming to the barn, insist on being petted and talked to before I can get any work done, and when I have cleaned, fed and watered them and they are happily chomping on their hay, if they see me leaving the barn they will start crying again -- just because! So, CRYING DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING with a goat -- and as someone said, they may be bottle babies and will cry just because they can.

MOST goats in the world never see the inside of a barn. Barns are built for human comfort and sometimes even kill goats by being too warm, becoming a breeding ground for viruses and bacteria in the air (just like most human workplaces, homes and schools are). 

Do goats LIKE regular feeding times, grain, treats, closed barns, deep bedding, extra-fine hay, heated water and constant attention? Would you like to live in a private Spa in Beverly Hils? Sure you would.

If the animals are given hay -- whenever, if water is available and windbreaks are present -- and they are not super-thin or have open wounds or broken limbs that are unattended to, they are not in trouble. They are not being mistreated.

Human beings DO need regular meals and water (since we have no rumens and only one stomach) clothing, shelter, regular attention and care. Animals -- especially ruminants -- do not need the same things on the same schedule that human beings truly NEED. 

Heavens, right here in the USA there are people without heat or running water in their homes. There are people living in tent-cities like far-away disaster victims on the News, only they live in their tents through ice and snow with NO access to plumbing or heat or proper shelter right here in the USA. They do not get three square meals a day, they do not have beverages available when they want or need them. They are poorly clothed and hungry. They do not have medical care or dental care. They are not "bums" - -they are the working poor and the unemployed. Right here in the USA today, Christmas Day 2012.

GET SOME PERSPECTIVE PEOPLE! There are better places to direct your time, money and attention!

No offense intended; you are entitled to your own opinions. You are NOT entitled to your own facts. 

Leave the livestock and their owners alone and go feed and clothe the poor people instead!


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## Squires (Sep 14, 2010)

Merry Christmas again, I am writing back to explain what I see in the photos, what the law says about agricultural practices, and why it does not match what you may have been told on this list, on the net, and in the booklets about pet goats, show goats and hobby goats. 

Most pet, show and hobby goats are way over-fed and fat. Their diets are controlled to either increase milk production or to produce the right "look" for the show ring. Meat animals have to be bulked up to look hunky in the beginning of the show season and then kept on a diet to keep from getting too big by the end of the show season. Animals kept as a pet or hobby tend to acquire more and more things you can do to fuss over them or spend time with them. .

Real production dairy goats eat a ton of grain sometimes and still look thin. It is commercially more productive and easier to get goats into a schedule for milking. 

Goats that are handled a lot may be more personable and also more dependent and neurotic -- so you would handle a pet, hobby or dairy animal more than a meat or brush-eating goat. 

Have you ever thought that these may be working goats -- brush eaters? In which case, they are not fed a lot of extras, so as to make sure that they pick up every weed they see. 

I'm looking at the photos again. The silver container is at least a 40 gallon water tank, which doesn't need to be filled or changed that often for 2-3 goats. Heat of the sun will help melt the water and keep it liquid. There are plenty of windbreaks from several directions; you will probably see them hunker down and snuggle together in different locations depending on which direction the wind is coming from. 

They are located in the Southwest USA -- New Mexico -- you don't have our horrific driving winds of 50mph full of wet sleet that we have in the north. Dry cold is more comfortable and bearable to much lower temperatures than is wet cold. You also have more sun in the Southwest than most of the USA.

They appear to have a sturdy meat build. Dairy goats are more angular and can appear bony even when in good flesh -- these are shaped like meat animals and look fine from this distance. 

They are standing in rather perky, alert positions. Their bellies are round, suggesting that their rumens are stuffed with hay. 

Those "straps on their faces" are goat halters. That usually means that they were handled a lot -- the halter is an easy way to handle and tie up or tie out a goat.

BTW, it is legal in most States (probably all 50 states) to shoot any dog that wanders onto your property near your livestock. That is usually an agricultural law, because even the sweetest pet dog can turn into a dangerous predator -- especially when in the company of other free-roaming pet dogs. That is a fact of life and most people do not realize how much damage their own sweet pet dog can do. I know of a shepherd who got so fed up with his neighbor's dogs killing his sheep and his neighbor brushing it off, that he finally dumped a dead sheep on his neighbor's front steps to prove the point. He could have legally just shot the dogs in the act. He didn't want to shoot dogs, he wanted them to be kept under control so they didn't do damage. 

These goats are NOT being abused by their owners. If it bothers you that their owner threatens to shoot your dogs, it would be a good idea for you to fence your own property to keep your dogs in, and to grow a hedge between you and the neighbor so that you do not have to see or hear anything. Because they are not doing anything illegal. 

The other thing is that, unlike cities which ship their trash to a dump or even ship it overseas, most country areas do not have a public dump and so when a family owns a piece of land for some time, there will be an accumulation of larger pieces of metal -- such as old vehicles. 

I strongly suggest fencing your own dogs in before they get into trouble, and get started on growing that hedge. 

best wishes.


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## fd123 (May 29, 2012)

I didnt take the post as a bashing, nor trying to be-little country folks one bit! I took it as someone concerned about the well being of 2 goats ,in a tiny pen, with NO SHELTER. ******* > Hillbilly>etc. has kindve became another word that people use as "Trashy, Un-educated People" Because >>OF MEDIA Pertrays them as such! What about Jeff Foxworthy?? Does he offend you or make you laugh? The poster of this thread is obviously concerned about the well being of these animals to have taken the time to type , and post pics of these goats. No need to take offense on the slang words that were used by the poster to get across the concern she/he was trying address, I assure you it wasnt meant to offend ANY MEMBER ON THIS FORUM! >>>This is "MY OPINION" from what i read...<<< 
Getting back to the big picture , they do look to be of normal size for a Boer breed to me from the pics..(maybe the owners are feeding more than youve seen?? or maybe what they are feeding is working for those 2 goats), The water issue, is not the practice that i use for sure! but,,,atleast they have water available, regardless of the quality! The shelter?? Im no goat expert, but i do believe that they need a shelter to get out of the elements, if they choose to do so... 
Maybe you could just go over and say something like..> Hey im building a few huts/shelters for my goats and noticed that you dont have one for yours...Im gonna have plenty of materials left-over after i finish.. Would it be ok if i put something together for yours while im at it? This may kill 2 birds with 1 stone! 1> get those goats some shelter.. and 2> relieve some of the tension between you and your neighbors! 
Best of Luck to you in this situation! Prayers Sent!! 
and MERRY CHRISTMAS!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

serious objective opinion as per your request: the three goats are in a pen with what appears to be well maintained fence and although small sufficient space for exercise. the waste hay on the ground indicates they are being given more than they require. if they were starved they would eat every bit available. closer examination is required.to determine if they have sufficient water and the quality if the water. i only.fill.my.water tubs every few.days so i doubt that is really a.prpblem. if the day is warm the ice will.melt.fine. closer examination is also required to determine if the body cobdition score of the goats is acceptable.


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## emilieanne (Oct 15, 2012)

Squires said:


> Merry Christmas again, I am writing back to explain what I see in the photos, what the law says about agricultural practices, and why it does not match what you may have been told on this list, on the net, and in the booklets about pet goats, show goats and hobby goats.
> 
> Most pet, show and hobby goats are way over-fed and fat. Their diets are controlled to either increase milk production or to produce the right "look" for the show ring. Meat animals have to be bulked up to look hunky in the beginning of the show season and then kept on a diet to keep from getting too big by the end of the show season. Animals kept as a pet or hobby tend to acquire more and more things you can do to fuss over them or spend time with them. .
> 
> ...


Merry Christmas to you too ^^^
I agree with you a ton! They don't need to be fed 24-7 actually, I have heard of, and a lot not just a rate case, of someone giving their goat food ever second of the day and they got over full or something and popped and didn't make it..

Also, with the size of the goats in that picture, it's not the best of pictures, if I were you I would be worried too. They do look like they are full and eating fine but keep in mind the fur. I picked up a little girl to save that was sick but It did not look like she was so skinny, she looked fine until I touched her and realized her hair was makin her look fine. (She is a mini Nubian btw..) 
Hope everyone had a merry Christmas.


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## emilieanne (Oct 15, 2012)

emilieanne said:


> Merry Christmas to you too ^^^
> I agree with you a ton! They don't need to be fed 24-7 actually, I have heard of, and a lot not just a rate case, of someone giving their goat food ever second of the day and they got over full or something and popped and didn't make it..
> 
> Also, with the size of the goats in that picture, it's not the best of pictures, if I were you I would be worried too. They do look like they are full and eating fine but keep in mind the fur. I picked up a little girl to save that was sick but It did not look like she was so skinny, she looked fine until I touched her and realized her hair was makin her look fine. (She is a mini Nubian btw..)
> Hope everyone had a merry Christmas.


Oh and I mean it's not the best picture meanin that it is far away and hard to see. Also they could just be fine.


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

Squires said:


> MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!
> 
> I just have to comment on this. Prior to the entire USA being electrified in the mid-20th century, and most people getting hot and cold running water, people watered their animals TWICE A DAY. They walked their animals to the local creek or well to be watered. Still, today, there are goatherds and shepherds who herd their animals across open lands (IN THE USA, too, mind you) and they may only see liquid water every 2nd or 3rd day.
> 
> ...


I think you are insane. Some of what you are saying makes sense, but most of it is crazy. First off, goats need water everyday. People can live for 3 days without water, but you are going to feel pretty awful if you go that long. Same for these goats. Yes, they have a large water tub. But, if its FROZEN, they can't get the water. They can lick the ice, but that could make them very sick and cold, like if you went out in the cold and started eating snow. I have water buckets that won't thaw, even in the sun, if it freezes thick enough.

Food- They will eventually be very emaciated if they don't get enough hay and they don't have shelter to keep warm in. They will be using that small amount of food to keep their bodies warm and they will get very skinny.

Shelter and "windbreaks"- I dare you to go lay still out in the open, 15 feet from a rusty truck and tell me how your windbreak feels.Your right, many goats don't see the inside of a barn. BUT, these goats are not in a little tiny fence, unable to find their own cover! Duh! They get to roam around and find what ever cover/shelter Also, you mentioned African goats being even less comfortable than Swiss goats in the cold.These are obviously Boer goats, which are African.


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## FarmerJen (Oct 18, 2012)

Do you have any goat rescues in your area? Sounds kinda funny... but we do have one here... so it's a thought. They might know who to contact, if anything can be done. I'd also call the livestock guy back and ask if not having any shelter whatsoever is a concern (in addition to food/water). I would think shelter would be considered a basic need like food and water.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

I know you don't want to hear this... But I agree also with Squires post. You really can't tell much about their actual weight in the picture because it is so far away, but from what I do see they look fine.

We used to have a man that traveled across the US with his goats. He was known simply as the Goat Man. It was a town event to see him coming down the road with his wagon pulled by goats in front and goats in back used as brakes and goats on sides. His babies were kept up in the wagon and he used the back of the wagon as the birthing room. He didn't have a home, he just wandered. By standards today people would probably accuse him of mistreatment. But his goats were well-cared for and loved. No they never had permanent shelter, he didn't either. No they didn't have running water or electricity, he didn't either. Yes they all smelled to high heaven including him. When he got tired he would stop on the side of the road and let the goats graze for awhile. He slept mostly in fields or under a tree. When it got cold he would build a fire from old tires he collected and carried on top of the wagon. Him and the goats would sleep around the fire or under the wagon when it rained. And we're not talking a hundred years ago. He traveled around until he got near death. He was still traveling in the 90's. He died in 1998. You can read more about him on my website.

My point to this is just because the goats aren't receiving the care YOU think they should, does not mean they aren't taken care of. Heck there's wild goats in foreign countries that fend for themselves and have hardly any shelter, food, or water. They find it when they can and eat and drink when they can.

Also, just because you don't see them changing the water or feed, doesn't mean they don't. When my husband was working long hours, we wouldn't get out to our goats sometimes until well after dark. You can't watch his house 24/7 ( at least I hope you don't). As for the crying, some of my goats will cry anytime they see someone or something. That's usually how I know we have visitors. It doesn't mean they are ill or not taken care of. Some goats just are noisy.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

milkmaid10 said:


> I think you are insane. Some of what you are saying makes sense, but most of it is crazy. First off, goats need water everyday. People can live for 3 days without water, but you are going to feel pretty awful if you go that long. Same for these goats. Yes, they have a large water tub. But, if its FROZEN, they can't get the water. They can lick the ice, but that could make them very sick and cold, like if you went out in the cold and started eating snow. I have water buckets that won't thaw, even in the sun, if it freezes thick enough.
> 
> Food- They will eventually be very emaciated if they don't get enough hay and they don't have shelter to keep warm in. They will be using that small amount of food to keep their bodies warm and they will get very skinny.
> 
> Shelter and "windbreaks"- I dare you to go lay still out in the open, 15 feet from a rusty truck and tell me how your windbreak feels.Your right, many goats don't see the inside of a barn. BUT, these goats are not in a little tiny fence, unable to find their own cover! Duh! They get to roam around and find what ever cover/shelter Also, you mentioned African goats being even less comfortable than Swiss goats in the cold.These are obviously Boer goats, which are African.


I don't think she sounds crazy... I think she is saying if you were a nomad or lived "back in the day" you would often take your animals to a creek instead of having a tub of water somewhere for them. If you were herding animals across a great expanse you might only see a water source every couple of days.

She can't know the water is frozen solid unless she is walking over onto their property and looking down into the bucket. Just because she doesn't see them out there breaking ice, and her buckets freeze, doesn't mean that they don't have water. Depending on what container the water is in and what kind of insulation they have (if any) their water might not freeze as bad as hers. Also, they might be night owls and do most of their stuff in the dark. Unless she watches their house 24/7 she has no idea when they come out. I'm not saying they AREN'T as bad as she claims, but they could just be very erratic with their schedule..or you know, don't do schedules. Lol.

Also, the hay in the photos looks scattered, like left-overs. If they are leaving hay scattered on the ground, they are leaving waste hay. IE they are eating their fill and don't want anymore. It looks green, it doesn't look stomped into the ground/soiled up...but the photos ARE pretty teensy.


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

Well,believe what you want to. If they are as bad as she is describing,I would offer to buy them at a reasonable price. If the owners are as careless and unconcerned as they sound, they probably would sell them. If not to you,then send someone to their door with cash in hand to "buy them for their kids" or something.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

I have to add this point...I really tried to bite my tongue, but it's just not in me.

I am a ******* - country bumpkin - hillbilly and proud of it. It is a long family tradition. And yes I have family members with junk cars in their yards some even with goats who love to jump up on them and get in them to play.

So I re-read all of LadyHarley posts and have copied some of them here. It really sounds like you are more concerned about who the people are than you are about the goats. I quote LadyHarley's posts (Underligned highlights are mine)- 
"Unfortunately, they are ******** ( probably would define as hillbillies, inbred) LOL and all the family lives together on the compound behind me...so I don't think I'd get away with it. My friend (who has goats) asked me how to get over there . I said good luck LOL ... you can see my property is clean there's littered with trash and they don't clean it up. When the wind blows their crap and beer cans and walmart bags in my yard, I toss it back over the fence into theirs .. I said good luck ... if they got loose, I can't have them here, they would see them with mine. Needless to say, I don't get along w/ those kids with a history of calling the sheriff all the time with their blasing music. sorry, got off topic

"Sheriff dept here doesn't have time for this stuff. It took three years for them to take away horses from an unfit owner after complaint after complaint. It would be hard to prove how long they are without water and food, as I can't get close enough to prove with a date stamp on the camera. The sheriff dept doesn't do anything with photos like that anyway. Only on TV LOL" ?were these your complaints as well.

"That's what I'm saying...... county code enforcement does absolutely nothing. small town political BS! Trust me I've tried to think of all angles... you're supposed to get a ticket as well, unless it's who you know who you ahem.. "

"I know it's crap. city girl mixed in with country bumpkins"

"Sad thing is you don't have to listen the goats cry all day and night and it's disheartning they don't care about anything except themselves, which is this culture now and how ignorant these jerks really are. I've seen them shoot dogs just for crossing their property without cause. I never said I was going to steal anything. I think your post is a bit rude and insinuating. You sound like a hillbilly not a *******. It seems you did not read my initial post very carefully. It was an opinion on the pictures and care of goats. I have never said anything to these people, except when they infringe on my rights and cause me not to work. "

"I hear you, but everyone in this area, village, has clean kept yards clean of debris, except them. If consititutes a hazard harboring snakes, rats and mice, fire. I guess the part that gets me is she is a supposed nurse and is she lives like a pig, god forbid her patients. "

Okay so my venting is over...just trying to show you how very opinionated you are against them which IMO is not fair. If the concern is over the goats, then the responses should be directed at their care not the people who you know nothing about.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

milkmaid10 said:


> If they are as bad as she is describing,I would offer to buy them at a reasonable price. If the owners are as careless and unconcerned as they sound, they probably would sell them.


The problem I have with this, is the goats don't look bad from the pics and we are getting 2nd hand information from a person who admits she can't get close enough even with a camera to take good pictures of the goats, their water or what else, but makes statements such as 'the water is frozen'. It is IMO all based on her negative biased opinion of the owners and not the actual goats.  The bashing needs to stop and focus on the goat care.  Just because you don't like the owner doesn't give you the right to try to start unwarranted crap about their property, persons, or animals. Proof is the key here and so far there is no justified reason to think such. I would suggest if she could to actually go on the property and look at the water trough, buckets and feed. Because IMO from what I see in the pics the hay is there and looks like leftover graze after eating all they wanted. A starving goat wouldn't leave anything. And I'd bet there is water in the big trough.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

My only concerns are their small area for exercise and lack of shelter. 
They may have windbreaks but what happens if it rains? Or in summer when it's hot? They don't have anything to get out of the elements. 
Other than that I think they are fine.


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

mjgh06 said:


> The problem I have with this, is the goats don't look bad from the pics and we are getting 2nd hand information from a person who admits she can't get close enough even with a camera to take good pictures of the goats, their water or what else, but makes statements such as 'the water is frozen'. It is IMO all based on her negative biased opinion of the owners and not the actual goats.  The bashing needs to stop and focus on the goat care.  Just because you don't like the owner doesn't give you the right to try to start unwarranted crap about their property, persons, or animals. Proof is the key here and so far there is no justified reason to think such. I would suggest if she could to actually go on the property and look at the water trough, buckets and feed. Because IMO from what I see in the pics the hay is there and looks like leftover graze after eating all they wanted. A starving goat wouldn't leave anything. And I'd bet there is water in the big trough.


I know. That's why if she thinks they are so bad of, she should offer to buy them,and if she doesn't think it is too big a deal to mess with, forget about it. I don't know these people. No one else does either so it is nearly impossible to judge the situation. She is the only one who has actually been near the goats so it it up to her. As long as she doesn't make them "disappear" she can do what she wants about approaching these people. Again, I would ask a friend that they don't know to offer to buy them if she really want to try to help the goats or whatever.


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## goatgirl132 (Oct 18, 2012)

On the frozen water you do say you can't see the buckets I mean you can't get close enough to get a good picture of the goats and he pin
There may be an insert piece that heats the water. I know someone who uses one it sinks to the bottom and it stays in the middle of her tank granted hers is for her horses but that shouldn't matter still it keeps her water unfrozen how it does that idk and nether does she its not electric, solar, or battery operated but its safe and does the job.
And they can hide by the tank If its big enough and since their not blanketed they have grown out a really thick coat and dont nessisarily need a bunch of Shelter.
And reading all pages and all comments it seems to me your more into complaining about them and are trying to use this as yet just another way to get them in trubble.
And for the crying, goats cry its what they do just like a rooster.crows is the morn, a horse neighs, and a cow moos, goats cry. 
And you might wanna put up a fince for your dogs first before you complain about how their cots are kept I mean you apperently can't keep your dogs maintained and in your yard.
PS just because your ******* or hillbilly dosent mean your "inbred"

My opinion from a ******* and country raised girl!


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## Squires (Sep 14, 2010)

clearwtrbeach said:


> I do agree with firelight, some of the comments should have been filtered, this is a friendly group and has youngsters on it. We may not always agree but we need to respect others. My husband grew up a red neck, I between the city and the country- so I guess I'm a little of both. Not all ********, hill billys are trashy people and that is what was implied. Please keep it kind and filter before typing. Have a safe holiday to all.


Clearwtrbeach,
that was a very kind action, and a very polite and considerate reply. Bless you for your thoughtfulness. :thumbup:'


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