# A HUGE disappointment...



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Ok,,,so here's the story. I got a registered LGD last November. She did pretty good with my nigerians until March hit, when babies were being born, she killed several of the newborn kids in one day, so then I chained her to the fence far enough from where the goats stay so she could still warn coyotes, but not be near the goats...anywho, did that for awhile and no more killings. THEN, we moved our goat pen to a more populated area so I took her home because there aren't many coyotes in that area. So while she was at our house she caused SO much trouble, she chewed up at least 3 garden hoses, flower beds, her own collar, leashes, horse fly spray containers, just to name a few things, Oh and she got in our small fish pond and ruined the whole set up and all the fish died from all the movement in there... 

Then once all the baby goats had been sold I decided to turn her out with the adults (just a few weeks ago) thinking she would be fine with them(she has been in the past), went well up until yesterday evening... come to find out my neighbor just saw her shaking one of my yearlings around like a ragdoll!!! Thank goodness I went and got her imediately and no goaties were hurt, but my gosh, this dog is just unreal!! I have NEVER had a dog like this. I am sooooo disappointed with her, I do believe the breeder is breeding just because this is a hard to find dog (in our area at least) and I think she is breeding totally irresponsibly and not worrying about temperment or what the breed is SUPPOSED to be used for, she also just sent me her registration app. 2 weeks ago and didn't even fill the thing out completely. So anyway, I just don't know what to do. I paid a lot of money for this dog and she has cost me A LOT on top of that. I think I may notify the owner of the problems with this dog. But I don't know if I should try and sell the dog or put her down or ??? I don't think she'll ever be a good LGD, not breeding, possibly a watch dog, but then again, she causes a lot of damage to property. I just don't know what to do with her. Any ideas?? And should I notify the owner? :sigh:


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

wow.

I'm sorry but I'd never keep a dog that would actaully try to kill or actually kill one of my goats. and destroying the house isnt an asset.

i'd consider getting her a pet home. 

arent akbash dogs kinda active dogs? I'd consder a more gentle dog 

:hug:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I am sorry that you are having difficulty.

She is still considered a puppy and up until they are 2 or older can chew and destroy things. My mastiffs are 2 1/2 and I have had to work so much with them and they have Pyrenese in them. But I still do not trust them to be with the goaties alone. They only time they go in the pens is when I am in there also and can keep an eye on them. My one mastiff, Luna STILL to this day will chew if she has to be in the house during the day for more then a couple days in a row.

I would contact the breeder - but if there is no good response - I would place her in a pet home. Not all LGD's are good with livestock just due to their breed. You are correct in saying that it could be the breeding - but it could be just her also being a pup or just does not have the mantality of an LGD. I am not sure - as I have not worked with the dog or anything so I am not sure. Another thing that it could be is boredom (as with my mastiff).

I know that there are alot of classes for LGD dogs, as i have heard about them on other forums (horse) but I would also look around for that in your area as another alternative.

I hope things work out :hug:


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## Thanatos (Mar 16, 2009)

I would personally put the dog down. It sees small critters as either food or toys both of which are bad news. Sry this happened.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Thanks guys. :grouphug: Allison, yeah, at first I did think it was a combination of bordum and being a puppy, we have TONS of things out there to stimulate her though, rubber chew toys, raw hide bones, she's fed twice daily, etc., but something just seems to be "off" with her. I honestly think it is a mental imbalance or something. My dad was thinking maybe because of lack of these dogs around the breeder may have inbred her dogs and this is why she has these certain traits. I have trained my dogs (5 now) and have never come across anything like her. :shrug:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

It very well could be - I would find a pet home for sure - and be honest with the new people on her not being able to be around small animals.

I personally would not put her down, as she very well could be redirected with the right home. I would have had to put all 3 of my dogs down if I did it because they killed another animal. Granted I don't think they did it to purpously hurt the other animal (at least with Luna) and they never ate the animal - which tells me it was more of an over aggressive play (it ran so I chased - or big paw little body).


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## ksacres (Oct 30, 2007)

Even dogs that are bred for a certain pursuit need TRAINING.

A lot of people get dogs for a specific thing are are sorely dissappointed when they don't automatically know what is expected of them. For example, Border Collies have an ingrained need to "herd" things, but they can damage livestock by running them or nipping too much if they haven't had that ability channeled to do some good.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Yes, totally agree. I worked VERY hard with her right from the beginning, rewarded and disaplined when needed, but she just never seemed to pick up on anything. I truly think something just doesn't click with her when it should. 

I do think I will try and find a pet home for her, but that may be hard to do because she hasn't been around to many kids, doesn't do good with small animals, and hasn't had much contact with other people, so i'm not sure if I would trust her enough to place her in certain homes. And I really don't have a whole lot of time to find a permanent home. So we will see...I'm going to try my best though. I would hate to put her down, but i'm just not sure how safe she would be for a new home.


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## ksacres (Oct 30, 2007)

KW Farms said:


> I would hate to put her down, but i'm just not sure how safe she would be for a new home.


My opinion: A dog that kills small animals, can't be trusted around humans (any size), and isn't dog safe, is more of a liability than an asset. And you don't want to pass off a problem on to someone else.

Good luck, it is a really tough decision. :hug:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Exactly my thoughts, ksacres. I will just have to think this over real well. :sigh:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

sorry to disagree but I am with Allison -- my dog has killed chickens and ducks but he is the BEST watch dog and family companion dog. 

my pup/dog was bored and also very playful, whatever ran he chased and sometimes his play was a bit to rough. It doesnt always mean they will be killers.

I have been very pleased with my dog and I trust him with my goats and I leave them together many times. He helps clean off any kids who happen to be brought into the house and he is very protective of them.

So playful puppy behavior does not mean they wont be good dogs later on.....even if they arent totaly right in the head.

My grandfathers dog would nip at young kids.....but he was a great dog otherwise -- a little messed up in the head due to being caged when puppy (he was a border collie) We learned to stay clear of him when young but once over 5 feet he was fine with you. He didnnt always nip but it happened when he was a young puppy and out grew it when he was a dog. He always was a bit off and we called him psycho mutt (with love and affection - sort of LOL)


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

A puppy is a puppy.

I am so sorry that you are having this problem. I know of a friend that has a dog that is great with the goats, cats and everything BUT chickens. He is a good dog but they just had a excuse to get rid of the chickens that they wanted to get rid of anyway.

I have a Poodle, and on my gate as you come in it ways CAUTION ATTACK POODLE", everyone thinks it is a joke. It is no joke. My little 6 pound poodle will attack you and my three big dogs, well they will lick you to death or get in your vehicle and go for a ride. Matter of fact the UPS driver took one of the dogs for the day on his route. Now I would never get rid of my poodle, I tell everyone that come to my house, DO NOT TOUCH HIM, LET HIM COME TO YOU AND NEVER PICK HIM UP. It really is not a problem because I am home with him.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with Allison and Stacey.. :hug: 
It takes alot of work and dedication to raise a LGD .....you have to be right on top of things at all times....
(pups are pups for up to 2 years some a little more....constant watching correcting has to be done....if you cannot watch the pup ...then I recommend.. that he is put in an area ...where he can see the goats, but can't play or touch them.....When we raised our pup , he would chase the kids and bite there tails constantly .....chasing them ...they were so exhausted.. he had the kid all slobbered up with a bloody tail... this is before I knew.. what was happening and watched him close afterward........
if not stopped ...the excitement gets stronger and some get so rough they kill...by accident...then move on to the next......you don't want him to touch the goats at all(off limits) .....get a very strong ..shock collar.. put it on correctly...and when he gets near any goat , zap him, you will have to watch him at all times , now that he has gotten a taste for rough fun.....put him away from the goats when...he cannot be watched... :hug:


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## rebelshope (Sep 21, 2008)

StaceyRoop said:


> sorry to disagree but I am with Allison -- my dog has killed chickens and ducks but he is the BEST watch dog and family companion dog.
> 
> my pup/dog was bored and also very playful, whatever ran he chased and sometimes his play was a bit to rough. It doesnt always mean they will be killers.
> 
> ...


Thanks Stacy. I totally agree.

My dachshund came home with a rabbit in her mouth, a small animal. That, in no way, makes her a danger to any two leggers. She loves kids. I would never kill her because of it. She also loves to chase the cats, goats, horses, basically anything that runs. Yet she is trust worthy around the smallest chicks.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I happened to be talking to my brother and he made a good point.

it isnt just any blood that makes a dog vicious and such but human blood can be a factor. Now this is just his point of view and isnt totaly across the board. but he said "once a dog taste human blood you have to watch him and can never trust him" not I know that police dogs can bite and hold on for ages till the release command is given and they are not vicious dogs going out and biting people at will. And my dog the other day bite my brother in play (we spray him with water and he jumps and bites the water but got to close to my brothers hand holding the sprayer and he bit him) it drew blood he sad but our dog moped around for that whole day while we tried to encourage him that he didnt do a thing wrong. So yup not all dogs are vicious after tasting blood. Take it on a dog to dog basis.


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## rebelshope (Sep 21, 2008)

Man I guess I just have to shoot this little guy:










He LOVES human blood. If I got a cut on the leg he is right there licking and licking. I won't know I have a nick or cut until he starts licking sometime. Blood thirst little guy!

The once they taste blood they are ruined is an myth. The only area it may have some truth is with hunting dogs who get a taste for eating the game they are bring back, but I am not even sure about that.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

hmm interesting rebleshope.....well glad he hasnt decided to become vicious because of it


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

rebelshope...where are you getting the idea that I would shoot my dog??? I said she may need to be put down, that does't mean to be shot. There is a difference between a little weaner dog and an akbash. The problem is our dog hasn't been socialized with people other than me and my family or other dogs, she has been living with goats, sheep, and horses. Where she is located there are no strangers walking by, just an occasional horse rider, and the neighbor's house, but the pen is quite a ways off from their house. She seems ok with kids, but when someone comes out to look at the goats she is very aggressive. She has killed several baby goats and almost killed one of my yearling bucks if my neighbor hadn't rushed over to tell me! This dog is not a pet. I did not intend for her to be socialized with other people, dogs, cats, etc. so she would guard the goats. I have 5 other dogs, all have been trained, and three of them have killed wild/feral cats, skunks, and a couple pheasants, would I ever put them down...NO! This is different than a pet, the akbash (Dakota) is intended to work and be with the goats her whole life, SO how many people want to take a guardian dog that has killed goats, the animals she's supposed to protect, and have her guard their herd?? How many people want a dog as a pet that has killed goats and has not been socialized with other people or animals and chews up everything? My reason for posting this thread was to get opinions and advice. SO what would you do rebel?????? And yes, she's a puppy, puppies chew on things, but she won't listen to disapline OR reward. I honestly have trained my other 5 dogs and they have all done very well, heck we even use our black lab for hunting pheasants and he's done awesome, because we've trained him. This dog is different than ANY dog i've ever seen, and honetly, I believe she's mentally "off". I'm not one to put a dog down just because she's got some issues, but some things can't be fixed. I still don't know what I am going to do with Dakota, like I said before I have alot of thinking to do, this isn't an easy decision. I'm not trying to cause a big argument, but rebelshope...was that really necessary???


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Back to the subject at hand - I think this is a very hard decission for you Kylee, and really - only you can decide what is best. Some have given very honest opinions, and being such a wide based forum, there are many with a wide range of opinions.

It was never said that you were going to "shoot the dog" and I honestly do believe that it was not ment that way. I know that this is a sensitive time.

I would talk to a Abkash rescue and see if they will take her. they will evaluate her and see if she can be retrained for a family or for maybe a cattle farm or a larger animal farm. I took in a dog that never had been inside or touched except to be beat, and now she runs (supervised) with the goats. 

Let us know what you decide if you would like.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Thanks Allison.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

:hug:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I would have to agree, I don't honestly think that anyone implied that you would shoot her, but to be truthfully and brutally honest I grew up in an area that it was common to hear of dogs shot because they "turned" either against an owner or livestock.

Allison made a very good point about finding a rescue for dogs such as yours, around here there are many Pitbull rescues because of the number of _idiots_ that breed them to be illegally fought. To me it does sound like your pup may have a genetic behavioural issue, some may disagree with that but I truly believe that some manners and behaviours are bred into an animal...goat, dogs , horses etc.

The same concept here I believe, if you had a doe that would drop kids and never want to care for them or was aggressive towards them, would you keep her in your breeding program or would you sell her as a pet? I personally would likely either keep her and not breed her or would sell. Same as with your pup KW, you have options available to you, and if she can't be trusted then it's time she moves on to a home that either can rehab her or be with her 24/7 to help her adjust.


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## rebelshope (Sep 21, 2008)

I am sorry if you took it that I was implying that you should actually shoot you dog. I was not. That was a bad choice of words on my side, and I should have just passed this thread by. 

Yes, a mini dachie is different that a LGD. Yet a dachshund can be just as vicious as any other breed, more than some. Dachshund have been known to kill babies. My point was that once a dog has tasted blood or killed a small animal does not make it a vicious dog that should put down. 

I don't have an issue with putting down a dog that is really not right or a serious threat. I actually don't have issue with any of your posts. It was others that automatically said it is a vicious dog because, 1) it acting like a dog and killed a small animal and 2) it tasted blood. That does not make a dog vicious. I did not see where you thought the dog was just not right, that is different. If you truly because that the dog is not right then by all means, have it humanely euthenized.

Personally if I were in the position, I would take your dog. I can't, I am basically renting here and I have enough animals at the moment. If I were in your position I would contact a LGD rescue or like I said try to rehome with full disclosure. At the very least have someone from the human society or local dog club do a temperament test.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Thanks Beth...got your pm. :hug:


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## rebelshope (Sep 21, 2008)

Your welcome :wink: :hug:


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## goatheaven (Oct 18, 2007)

Your dog may just not be suited for livestock work. I had a similar problem with a Great Pyrenees puppy we got last year. We thought it would be good to help Deliliah our female older Pyr and she could also help train her. She would chase the goats to the point of exhaustion and all of this was done while I was watching her. Who knows what would have happened if I had turned her loose. I believe two things: one is there are irresponsible breeders out there raising these livestock guardian dogs and not worrying about if they are the right temperment and saying they are with goats and things and are not (my experience) two is that not all livestock breeds produce working dogs. We raised Great Pyrs and not all of our pups were cut out as working dogs. I could tell by the way they interacted with the goats as pups. My two great Pyrs were put out with the livestock and never trained and were excellent. Never did they run or chase or kill livestock. We left them together from day one. You may be able to place the dog into an akbash rescue. I can understand your frustration as I had to rehome that Pyr puppy. Hope things work out. There are a couple of yahoo groups that rescue livestock guardian dogs you may want to contact. Good Luck! I know it is stressful! :hug:


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