# This can't be right.....



## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

So I bred my saanen x lamancha doe to a full lamancha buck. Understandably my doe has the elf-ears, and the stud has gopher. These are registered animals, and I trust the sources of both 100%.
Fast forward 146 days later, I get this. I was shocked. What happened???? 
I watched them breed within 2 minutes of introduction, she was isolated, she hunched over (someone called it a goat-gasm)
What on earth. How on earth. I feel queasy because something is mega wrong here....


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## IvyMayPygmyGoats (Jan 24, 2014)

Maybe the long ear gene skipped a generation. Or it could be dominant.. Basically, This kids mother, she has been given a recessive lamacha ear allele, and because there are two, they can dominate the usually dominant long ears. In the kid however, the dominant long ears gene has showed up again, maybe the full lamacha has the gene somewhere? 

Either that, vodoo or your girl has been getting busy...


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## Tapestry (Feb 5, 2015)

Genetics doesn't work like that. Double recessive expresses because the dominant gene is not present at all. If long ears are dominant, then there has to be a parent with long ears. If La Mancha short ears are dominant and long ears are recessive then both parents could have had the recessive gene for long ears and passed that to their kid, but not the other way around.


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

I can't see [EE + Ee = ee] no matter how I slice it, am I missing something?
E is always dominant over e, and the buck is from a Kastdemur line, I mean these aren't backyard goats, even a EE + ee will always = Ee or EE (?) and I have one more dominant E in my breeding. 
Is there a possible Sexlinked component at all?


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

Cute kid! Is it at all possible she could have been around another buck before the LM? I would say do a DNA test just to put your mind at ease


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

I'm not sure which ears are dominant or recessive but I can tell you this, I know someone who breeds munchkin cats (if you don't know what that is, it's a cat with tiny legs...) and she said she has one female that always has one kitten in the litter with long legs.. So both parents are "purebred munchkins"  with stubby little legs and they are bred for these stubby little bulldog legs so I assume it is dominant? Seems like it could be the same situation with your kid? Likely if she had another kid it would have the "correct" ears


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

If the dam is half Saanen, that makes the kid 1/4. The ears are a throwback to the Saanen grandparent.


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## Tapestry (Feb 5, 2015)

Here is some useful info having to do with the genetics of La Mancha ears
http://www.glimmercroft.com/EarGenetics.html
The La Mancha ears are dominant and the long ears are recessive, BUT a gopher eared buck should be GG and not have ANY long(uu) eared offspring. It should only have elf(Gu) or gopher(GG) eared offspring.


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

dNA test being ordered. This is really bad...thanks everyone, Tapestry you're saying what I'm thinking...the lamancha stud can't possibly be the father.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Sometimes ears just happen?

Do you have other bucks on the property? Or did you just buy her before you bred her?


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## Tapestry (Feb 5, 2015)

Not if he has gopher ears.


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

Keep us updated on the DNA test, I'm very curious. Do you know how long it takes?


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Sydmurph said:


> dNA test being ordered. This is really bad...thanks everyone, Tapestry you're saying what I'm thinking...the lamancha stud can't possibly be the father.


A genetic test would be really interesting. I hope you post the results.

In real life, things happen that "can't happen." I have read that in the past black Saanens have been born that shouldn't have been. Elf and gopher ears didn't always exist-- they had to appear at some point. Although not likely, it seems possible that they can disappear as well.

This is an interesting article on throwbacks.
http://www.interesting12.com/2013/03/21/when-genes-in-our-dna-go-atavism-on-us/

And this: http://articles.philly.com/1995-05-31/news/25674254_1_mexican-family-traits-hair

And for some really thought provoking info, you can look into (inherited) endogenous retroviruses. "Junk DNA" can actually be activated.

So...I'm really curious as to what is going on with your kid. (And I never say never.) It's great that DNA tests are available.


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm totally embarassed to say, her buckling was around albeit separated...but the dates? The breeding date is what gets me, she was bred on Oct 26th. There could have been no way unless she was like 3 weeks overdue by her buckling? I watched her heat, watched her mate, watched her catch, ? I guess I'm in denial and I feel absolutely awful about it. 
I'm really not the type of livestock keeper that lets accidental breedings "happen", we went really far out of our way to get a good stud, but I'm devastated now. The one thing I didn't want go happen on my farm has happened. now I can't even use him because of this, so he'll just have to go for meat. now I can't trust any of my kiddings. I'll have to assume he's the dad until proven otherwise, and the kids will be mutts nobody wants. Aaaargh! Had a good cry about it already. Not sure I'm done.


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## Tapestry (Feb 5, 2015)

I would look at what you get before deciding all that. You should know based on ears alone, who bred whom. A gopher eared buck should only have elf or gopher eared offspring. If everything else turns out the way it should, I would assume that she worked hard at cooperating with the other buck through the fence.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Many people like mutts. Does could still be good milkers.


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

That doesn't make much sense why she would come into heat if her buckling bred her, I would definitely wait for DNA results. He might just be the biggest genetic anomaly lol. Don't beat yourself up too much, goats are animals, they do crazy things when they are in season, many times beyond our control...


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

The thing with genetics is soemtimes things change. White is a dominant color but white goats produce colored kids...hence the Sable breed.

Genetic research in goats is a new thing, really. I would have them DNA'd and go from there. Don't do anything rash until you have the proof in hand.


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

Had it been an elf eared buck I never would have given it a second thought. But this guy has ears like a 747, lol. 
Cutest thing I have ever seen.


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

Like everyone's saying...wait for the DNA results before doing anything rash. If the doe was 3 weeks overdue by her own buckling--well, that's a long time to be overdue, isn't it? 

Then again, I wouldn't put too much weight on a goat-gasm, as they have them--bred or not, with a mate or not. 

Meanwhile, you can call that cute little kid Boeing, which sounds a bit like Boingggg! I'm sure he's starting to bounce around.


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

Try again next year,all you can do. ;-)


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> If the dam is half Saanen, that makes the kid 1/4. The ears are a throwback to the Saanen grandparent.


Agree


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Not that surprising with a 50% dam. Not likely but very possible. She can be registered as a 3/4 lamancha but on the applications you have to state she doesnt conform to the lamancha breed standard. If she is all white, you will need to state she conforms to the saanen breed standard. Have to check the erect ears box also. Breeding this kid lamancha should produced elf ears... hopefully. But regardless of that. Because of her ears, it will take a least 3 more generations before her kids (as long as they conform to the breed standard) can be registered as Amercian Lamanchas.


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

It's a buckling so very likely no registration or breeding plans.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

lottsagoats1 said:


> The thing with genetics is soemtimes things change. White is a dominant color but white goats produce colored kids...hence the Sable breed.
> 
> Genetic research in goats is a new thing, really. I would have them DNA'd and go from there. Don't do anything rash until you have the proof in hand.


So very true. I bred white saanens and mini saanans to white mini saanen buck this year and got a LOT of color....


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

Still waiting on a firm quote, but it looks like we're around $40 CDn for dna. They can use fur, so no blood draw necessary. I'll be testing everyone, so just waiting on the last doe to go, and then I'm sending samples in. Sigh.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Unless your just curious, I wouldnt even bother with the DNA if you have no plans to register or breed.


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

What on earth now is this. Now he looks like a baby boer. For crying out loud....


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

Sorry, that pic didn't load before I posted..


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Do you have a link to the buck's pedigree? 

LaMancha crosses often produce airplane ears rather than erect ears regardless of the breed of the erect eared grandparent.


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

Jill I think she said the buck was PB


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It doesn't matter...Nubian ears and LaMancha ears can be co-dominate in a single animal even if the Nubian ancestor was 6 to 8 generations back. The LaMancha herd book is still open, so, Americans can become purebreds in 2 generations.


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

I don't have it at the moment, but he was Kastdemur's American Graffiti bred to Touchstone Lamancha's doe. Can't recall which one atm. The same lamancha buck bred my 50% nube/lamancha and I got 2 gopher eared kids. And they look just like lamancha kids. The white buckling looks alllllll saanen! 
I attached a pic of his kids with my nube x.


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

Cute!!! How long for the DNA results?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

He's cute! I'm thinking just because mom is part Lamancha and part Saanen that the kid got the Saanen ears... A lot of people like muts.....


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

Well the DNA test results are in...the ND was the sire of the eared goats as expected. $230 later...should've just trusted my gut....


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Uh oh! Someone's in trouble. Where there's a will there's a way. LOL
Well, you have cute kids anythow


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Just for future reference...This is not uncommon.....

We have a Lamancha Nubian cross doe...we bred her to our Saanen buck..she had triplets...two with lamancha ear and one Saanen ears.....


here is a pic of the sisters....the buck kid also had the lamancha ears...


sounds like you have generation one minis :greengrin:


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## GoatieGranny (Jul 26, 2013)

I know you are disappointed, but try to remember that there are many homesteaders and hobby farm people who are totally open to the unregistered goats. They love them and give them good and happy homes. Their goals are different than yours, so their goats are different than what you might desire. Chin up. You can find them a happy home and try again next year.  I know first hand how hard it is to wait another year when you've made plans, but it will pass before you know it. Hugs!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Your kids can be registered if both parents are...we are raising mini saanen...and registered them under the MDGA (ADGA wont reg. Nigie crosses)...but as goatiegranny said...many want quality and not so interested in registration... Its the blood behind them..not the paper work that makes them quality...Ive seem way too many poor animals with papers...and some pretty amazing non registered ones...


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

I'm happy. I got one pretty registered doeling, a registered buckling, an adorable big eared Doeling I will probably keep, and a really adorable buckling that sadly will go for meat. But he's funny and handsome and I will make the most of it. And that's not a cop-out, we do eat goat and our friends buy it as well. It's not a terrible outcome by any stretch  
They're baby goats, what could be cuter? And more fun?


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## Tapestry (Feb 5, 2015)

And you now know that your LaMancha buck didn't throw long ears. That's a big plus!


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