# 4-H leader here. Sticky situation advice needed



## The keeper of goats (10 mo ago)

I met a family maybe 5 years ago now while leading a goat 4-H club. I loved their family. They were so involved with their kids. The kids worked so hard and I really love their kids. One of the kids in particular that I really started hanging out with especially when I broke away from the club. She's a sweetheart. 

When they started breeding and kidding one thing stood out to me.. they lost a lot of kids. Every year at LEAST 1 if not more kids from every birth would die rather unfortunate, very preventable deaths. Like I'm not talking stuck kid. I'm talking a kid starves to death after a week come to find out the doe is not lactating. An entire planned litter freezes to death in -1°F in the middle of December outside with no shelter. Mineral deficiency deaths several times a year. They lost an entire litter crushed to death because they kept mom and babies in a kiddie pool inside One dies of tetanus and a month later one died of thiamine deficiency. Kids are dying shortly after birth All. The. Time. And it seems increasingly that adult animals are dying as well. 

They have a lot of animals 30+ and this isn't a gradual over time thing. They just bought and retained everything. I used to visit and there would be 50+ chickens in the house and rabbits everywhere. They may have 7 litters of kids a year. And most of them so far die. 

My sister who has a very good relationship with them, sold them a buck this October and he died by December because he "doesn't fight for the food".

Their animals appear, aside from deficiencies to be healthy. They get grain although they have to fight for it. It's just the "lazy" things that always catch up to them. Putting your buck in with your does in September knowing you don't have the facilities to have winter kids seems to be most common. Not giving minerals to their goats because they "don't need it" or forgetting to give CD/T vaccines. 

All this to say. Watching these things unfold from the sidelines is HARD. These kids know what is happening. They know their mother keeps doing these things and they know what should be done. And they can't do anything. It's so sad. I used to love messaging with the kids but everytime I talk to them it's "my goat died in a horrible way". Mentally I don't know how to keep handling it. 

What would you do? Would you just leave the relationship? Would you talk to them about it? I'm a leader in the county. I see these kids at every fair. I was their leader at one point. What am I supposed to do?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You may have to just stop the relationship. It sounds like the mom isn't interested in good goat management.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I have a friend that is like the mother and I can NOT stand it! I finally had to just start distancing myself from her. I can’t stand when someone doesn’t learn from a loss and do nothing to prevent it from happening again. Crap happens sometimes, I get that and know it first hand, but it’s what you do after a loss that matters. 
Curious though as a fellow leader. Do you guys not have rules about being on a more personal level with kids? For where I’m at there is no personal emails or phone calls or favoritism allowed. We can chat about life but more only in a public setting. Just curious because if you have the same rules that might be the start of your out without bad feelings. If not then just start spacing your messages out. Try not to bring up the goats, I’m sure your heart can’t take the same stories of the same preventable deaths, I know I couldn’t.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If the animals are really skinny and show they are not being cared
for and if you have animal control.
Report them, ask them to pay them a visit.
No reason for them to have animals, if they just allow them to die
for nothing. Tell animal control not to mention your name to them.


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## brigieboo (Apr 8, 2021)

Yea ^ if you report to animal control you can ask to remain anonymous... That's not okay that so many animals are dying. 

Also from their point of view, I literally don't understand it. I'm confused at how they don't care and don't do anything. I mean, I'm 16, I'm a 4Her, but I get really upset if I find out my goats have even a mineral deficiency, let alone one of them dies... I'm devastated and ask my siblings, after a death, (which I've only had 2,) I literally spend so much money on my goats pampering them and making sure they're okay. I got sick countless times this winter cuz I was spending so much time outside with them checking them and watching for any signs of illness. 

Even if it's the mom paying expenses, do the kids literally not care about their animals? For them I think the best situation is to reduce their herd by a LOT. Only have a few goats and take care of those.... That's what my parents do. The goats are "mine" and I pay for everything but grain and hay, but they don't let me have "too many" because they don't want things like this to happen..... If I get too many y'know and then can't look out for the little things cuz there's too many and end up with problems.. which ok I'll admit I don't like, and I complain Abt the limit, (except right now I'm below it cuz I wanted to buy a new doe or two so sold a bunch but never found one) but then I read things like this and I totally understand why. It's honestly really sad. If they're not gonna love and take care of their goats they don't deserve to have them. The goats themselves deserve better than that. It's also not fair that the kids will grow up thinking that it's okay to treat animals like that....


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I hear ya. 🤗


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

I agree to contact Animal Control in your area. Sounds like shes an animal hoarder.


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## The keeper of goats (10 mo ago)

brigieboo said:


> Yea ^ if you report to animal control you can ask to remain anonymous... That's not okay that so many animals are dying.
> 
> Also from their point of view, I literally don't understand it. I'm confused at how they don't care and don't do anything. I mean, I'm 16, I'm a 4Her, but I get really upset if I find out my goats have even a mineral deficiency, let alone one of them dies... I'm devastated and ask my siblings, after a death, (which I've only had 2,) I literally spend so much money on my goats pampering them and making sure they're okay. I got sick countless times this winter cuz I was spending so much time outside with them checking them and watching for any signs of illness.
> 
> Even if it's the mom paying expenses, do the kids literally not care about their animals? For them I think the best situation is to reduce their herd by a LOT. Only have a few goats and take care of those.... That's what my parents do. The goats are "mine" and I pay for everything but grain and hay, but they don't let me have "too many" because they don't want things like this to happen..... If I get too many y'know and then can't look out for the little things cuz there's too many and end up with problems.. which ok I'll admit I don't like, and I complain Abt the limit, (except right now I'm below it cuz I wanted to buy a new doe or two so sold a bunch but never found one) but then I read things like this and I totally understand why. It's honestly really sad. If they're not gonna love and take care of their goats they don't deserve to have them. The goats themselves deserve better than that. It's also not fair that the kids will grow up thinking that it's okay to treat animals like that....


The unfortunate part is the kids do care. They care a lot and they know what is wrong. Their mother is a very aggressive person and she is in control over what they think, how they feel. They are not in control over their own animals it's really at the mercy of their mom who is pretty much reliving her childhood. Not a single kid is allowed to name their own goats babies. The mom names them all. 
Their mom is why they live beyond their means. 

When their mom decides the kids goats are done being milked they get dried up even if it's a week before their last fair and they have to enter the show dry. They lose every show. Their mom has decided that goats don't need to be clipped at fairs. The kids have no choice but to show their animals unclipped. 

The animals, unfortunately are not skinny. They seek out medical help when they are sick even if it's too late. On paper and in the eyes of the law they seem fine. Which is why animal control won't get involved.


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## The keeper of goats (10 mo ago)

Jessica84 said:


> I have a friend that is like the mother and I can NOT stand it! I finally had to just start distancing myself from her. I can’t stand when someone doesn’t learn from a loss and do nothing to prevent it from happening again. Crap happens sometimes, I get that and know it first hand, but it’s what you do after a loss that matters.
> Curious though as a fellow leader. Do you guys not have rules about being on a more personal level with kids? For where I’m at there is no personal emails or phone calls or favoritism allowed. We can chat about life but more only in a public setting. Just curious because if you have the same rules that might be the start of your out without bad feelings. If not then just start spacing your messages out. Try not to bring up the goats, I’m sure your heart can’t take the same stories of the same preventable deaths, I know I couldn’t.


I met them when I was a junior leader. I really had no official role. I took over the club when the leader walked out. I did the best I could to finish leading the club.


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## brigieboo (Apr 8, 2021)

That is really really sad. I feel bad for the kids. How old are they? Can they not do anything for them without their mom? 

See, the way my parents do it is, our animals are part of our education. They use the animals to teach us responsibility, problem solving, saving money/spending money smart, and then all the basic stuff ofc, like being responsible for getting our meat animals to gain weight, (then it's out fault if they don't make weight y'know, and we can't blame anyone but ourselves.) our parents pay for all feed, and if I ask for them to buy something for the goats they will, but I like to pay for stuff myself. It's not that they're not involved, cuz they are, it's just that us kids are responsible for feeding them and they want us to take responsibility and know our animals and recognize problems.... Like my brother has to put wart cream on his steer's face twice a day cuz otherwise he'll get kicked out of the fair 😂

Is there anyway the mom would listen to you if you suggest letting the kids maybe be responsible for like half the herd? And then that half is their show herd and the kids have to make sure they're healthy and well taken care of. That is not fair at all that she dries them up and won't let them clip them. For my county it is a requirement that all goats must be clipped. This makes me so mad and sad that her poor kids have to suffer cuz she wants to be in control. Cuz y'know what's gonna happen?? Her kids are gonna get married and have kids of their own and then they're gonna do this exact same thing, because they didn't get to do it when they were young and then it's gonna get to their head and mayyyyybe they won't be like their mom but it wouldn't surprise me if they end up raising animals exactly the same.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

If the kids know what’s wrong and want to make it right but can’t, I think there’s a good chance they won’t do the same when they’re grown. As they say, knowing is half the battle.

That’s such a sad, sad situation though. I wish there was an easy solution. This mother doesn’t really sound like the kind of person who would take criticism - or even suggestions - very well, so I’m not sure there’s much you can do, unless you want to just straight up call her out (or even chew her out). But even if you did that, I would think there’s a good chance she wouldn’t change anything and would just be mad at you for having the audacity to tell her she’s wrong.


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## moose71 (5 mo ago)

i just picked up/ saved a 2 yr. old N.D doe from a young poor couple 2 weeks ago. they had 8 adult does, a buck and 6 young ones. they only had 2 pieces of plywood as a shelter. they fed nothing but hay and the grass they were on, moving the fencing every few weeks. no vaccines or minerals. we are very deficient in selenium and copper here. she did have them tested last year. i wanted to walk away but the wife convinced me to get her anyway. it was obvious these folks didnt have a pot to piss in. the 1st 4 days she was here, she stayed in the shed and ate everything i gave her as well as a 1/2 lb. of mineral . treated her for worms and everything else a good owner should. her hair was like dried grass. yesterday for the 1st time her tail was wagging and she was playing with my 2 4 m. old N.D does. she loves a good bushing and starts to fall asleep scratching her neck. her old skin is flaking off with new pink skin underneath. hoping she renews her coat for winter. giving her lots of black oil sunflower is helping. i thought about turning those folks in but they have 2 young kids. their goats werent skinny but they looked pretty rough. mine had a large worm load. i have a appointment for the girls with the vet sept 13. i think ill give him their info. and let him take it from there. im convinced we saved poor Peanut.


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