# Evaluating Junior Does and First Fresheners



## redsticker (May 7, 2009)

So I'm having second thoughts... about getting senior does that other people are "getting rid of"... that maybe I should get a few nice doelings from some proven and maybe even not so proven does. I already have a couple picked out from older does; I can see their udders, past kids, condition over the years and results from the sow ring and milk tests. Easy, right?

Well, I can't afford to only buy from decorated senior does. So, along with the two kids from the more expensive does, I figure I'll try to find a couple nice junior or ff does and place reservations on their kids... at least one, maybe two. I know any breeding is a crap shoot, I know that you can't just a junior doe by her dam's and great dams' udders, and I know that a ff udder might change during subsequent freshenings. So this is where it gets hard.

I saw pictures of a few junior does I was interested in... all have incredible pedigrees, their dams and grand dams and great grand dams all have beautiful udders. And their "udders" (or rather what will be udders) looked symmetrical and had nice teat placement on two of them, but one was just slightly off (in the picture, maybe it was how she was standing) and they were spaced wider maybe because her dam had such a huge udder? wish I could see kid pics of the dam) but she has already won a ton of awards, plus she's being bred to an awesome buck.

Are there any tips on how to best pick a youngster to put my hopes... and my money... behind?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

best thing to do is talk to the seller and breeder.

Ask them why are selling that particular goat. FInd out their flaws and their good parts. A honest breeder will tell you what is wrong with the animal and what is their best qualities.


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## redsticker (May 7, 2009)

Well, they aren't for sale... kinda wish they were. They are going to be FF in the spring. They have impeccable pedigrees and are being bred to some beautiful, proven bucks, but still... there's a chance that it could be a dud or a huge steal at $350.

I'm guessing it's still a possibility that even if every goat in the family tree has a beautiful udder, the results can be pretty unpredictable with FF.


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

That is true- but even if you are buying a kid from a doe that has freshened with a fabulous udder- there is no way to know that a doeling out of her is going to have a nice udder as well.
I have had does that had excellent parents- KNOWN for their udders or producing nice udders, come out as a total trainwreck for an udder- its all about how lines mesh together.

Such is breeding!

So if yoiu are wanting to reserve a kid out of a FF- look at the animals in her pedigree- and the animals in his pedigree- sometimes I will do a little searching to see if someone else has tried a cross of similar lines and how it worked out but in the end its all a crapshoot anyway-
all you can do is look at the animals in the pedigree and the buck and does conformation, and hope that she has a nice udder AND that her resulting doeling (the one you would be buying!) has a nice udder too!

Then you just play the waiting game

Not much help am I huh?


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Oh also- dont judge a junior doe by her teat size and placement- that can change so dramatically when they freshen. I have seen doelings with itty bitty teeny tiny teats freshen with really nice milkable teats- and I have also seen doelings with nice big teats that freshen and they seem to stay the same size!! :slapfloor: 

So I really dont take any of that into account into what her udder will look like with milk in it!


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Proctor Hill gave some really nice tips. I do look at the teat placement on doe kids, I also take into account teat size but do not make that my decision factor. If I was buying a doe out of a FF, I would go more towards the one that would be bred to a proven buck (one with excellent milking daughters on the ground) rather than buying one from an unproven doe and unproven buck. Seems like your chances for a better milking daughter would be higher. If that even makes sense. . .

Conformation is very important too. I have a tendency to focus more on the udders sometimes but conformation makes up the highest points on the card. Udder, I believe is 35 points for ADGA, so a good chunk but excellent overall conformity earns more points. I also look into the width and height of the escutcheon - make sure it is nice and big to "house" a big udder.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Ok here is what i do, look for a breeder that has generations of pictures leading up to the doe. Look at other sr does look at her moms older sisters. and their dam Find a bunch of does out of one doe but several different bucks. Was that particular doe able to repeat herself and better when bred to multiple bucks? look for good breeders, ones who show a lot disease test and overall care about their herds. A herd name really does say a lot.
What particular breed are you look for? Are you willing to ship? 
beth


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## redsticker (May 7, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice... it's very helpful. At this point, I think it may be worth the gamble. 

The FF is already a national champion as a junior doe, her mom is very proven, a finished champion with 3*m/4*d... her dad is a relatively new buck from Fairlea Fleur, so that's all I'm worried about. I haven't seen any of his daughters udders, but if they're anything like his dam's, grandam's, etc. then wow. The buck she's being bred to is a finished champion with +*S who has thrown beautiful daughters, 3 of them finished champions.

And even if the results aren't what I hope, and I don't win a ton of awards with the doeling, she'll come from amazing milking lines, so I can hopefully at least get a star and have delicious milk for my family.  Now I'm just waiting to hear back from they lady so I can send in money to reserve my first goat! Then I'm going to sit back and pray for lost of does to choose from!


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Oh I love Fleur :greengrin: 
She is a funny old girl- I have the pleasure of milk testing Bonnie Chandler at Fairlea and have come to really love her and her offspring!
Just look- Ive got two Fleur daughters here one from 06 by MCH Twin Creeks Firestorm and a doeling from this year by Caesars Villa BB Rebel Yell
ANND I have her granddaughter out of Fairlea Marguerite who is a Tiger L Daughter

Now if you are talking about Lost Valley- which I think you might be- their Fleur son is by PromisedLand Incredible Hunk- while I dont know of a doe from this breeding- I DO know that Hunk has some VERY VERY nice freshened daughters on the ground for Joanne at Dragonfly Farm.

So I would say that buck has REALLY nice potential to throw some banger udders- and if the dam is already finished, she must also be very nice, so really you are just hoping the genes mesh- since Jean Luc is an outcross for Lost Valley.

Now lets hope you are talking about Lost Valley and I just didnt give you that whole ramble for nothing! :greengrin: 

Anyway- it sounds like you have done your homework and your making a great choice!


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## redsticker (May 7, 2009)

lol, yeah that's exactly who I'm talking about. I was just trying to keep it hush hush till I put the deposit down. I don't want to get my hopes up too much since the spring is so far away. They haven't even emailed me back yet. *bites nails* But thanks for the info. I'm feeling less nervous now. Well, less nervous about the the choice in general, but still nervous that someone will beat me to it... :help:


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## nutmegfarm (Dec 23, 2009)

There are many things you can look for in buying younger animals. Rear end...will usually have nice mammary if there is "wrinkling" or "folds" on sides of the escutcheon, indicating lateral mammary attachments. Check width of chest floor...you should be able to fit entire hand between from legs. ribs should be angled so when you run hands down sides, they aren't straight down. And of course the basics, level topline, deep barrel, smooth blending of neck to shoulders...and so on.


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