# Gentle Milk Stand Training - seeking advice



## Cait (Aug 26, 2021)

Hey goat lovers,
What are your best tips and tricks for *gentle* stand training? How long does it normally take for your does to have solid manners?

Mostly dealing with does who squat / lay down. Nigerian Dwarfs, so there's not a lot of room underneath them to begin with 😅

This is the first year milking for all my does, thank goodness I am patient lol


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

I’m following to learn too.


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

We just try very hard to make the stanchion a desirable place to be. Before milking ever begins they get on the stand to get chaffhaye, brushings & lots of praise. Return to the pen with a favorite snack - here it's a peanut. Then we start hoof trimmings & briefly check udders while on the stand too. Finally milking comes around. By then all the scariness is out of it and we've spent a lot of time already touching all of their body while on the stand. 
Our girls love going to the stand and if more than one gets out at a time they fight for it. 
It's a pretty big deal around here 
One other thing we do is mix their grain with lots of chaffhaye so they don't run out during milking and we don't feel tempted to overfeed to gain compliance. We have a girl that will stomp near the end of milking to demand her peanut before it's time, so she gets shackled to the stanchion if the kids are milking to keep her foot out of the pail. I just know to watch for it at the end and pull the bucket.
Our Kinders are smaller like yours but the base of the neck holder in the stand is high enough that if they tried to lay down it would be very uncomfortable. Maybe you could add a small strip of wood at the bottom to have that raised up?


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## littleheathens (Apr 27, 2019)

Similar practices here^^ Lots of petting, touching, shaving and brushing before milking.

I don't consider hobble/tying ungentle, when it keeps everyone calm. One of mine, too, will dance a little dance when done eating but sometimes that's faster than whoever might be milking. Tying is easier, safer and cleaner for us. Also, for the layers, I have found something under their bellies (like a bucket, child's bench, log) helps to remind them not to lay or get too lazy. I do this (mostly for sheep) when I trim too but I usually use my leg while kneeling if I can get the position right. It works better in the front. I think they get tired, not naughty.


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## Cait (Aug 26, 2021)

Lilgoatgal said:


> We just try very hard to make the stanchion a desirable place to be. Before milking ever begins they get on the stand to get chaffhaye, brushings & lots of praise. Return to the pen with a favorite snack - here it's a peanut. Then we start hoof trimmings & briefly check udders while on the stand too. Finally milking comes around. By then all the scariness is out of it and we've spent a lot of time already touching all of their body while on the stand.
> Our girls love going to the stand and if more than one gets out at a time they fight for it.
> It's a pretty big deal around here
> One other thing we do is mix their grain with lots of chaffhaye so they don't run out during milking and we don't feel tempted to overfeed to gain compliance. We have a girl that will stomp near the end of milking to demand her peanut before it's time, so she gets shackled to the stanchion if the kids are milking to keep her foot out of the pail. I just know to watch for it at the end and pull the bucket.
> Our Kinders are smaller like yours but the base of the neck holder in the stand is high enough that if they tried to lay down it would be very uncomfortable. Maybe you could add a small strip of wood at the bottom to have that raised up?


Thanks so much for sharing! Our girls will fight to get on the sand too, as soon as they see me walk in the barn they run to the milking stall haha, it's just the actual milking that some get annoyed with. Adding a strip of wood is a good idea I might have to try that. 

It's mostly my one doe who will squat right down onto the bucket/my hands 🤦🏻‍♀️


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## Lilgoatgal (Dec 17, 2021)

Cait said:


> Thanks so much for sharing! Our girls will fight to get on the sand too, as soon as they see me walk in the barn they run to the milking stall haha, it's just the actual milking that some get annoyed with. Adding a strip of wood is a good idea I might have to try that.
> 
> It's mostly my one doe who will squat right down onto the bucket/my hands 🤦🏻‍♀️


Hhhmmm, that's an interesting one. Are your hands cold by chance? Our does will try to get away from cold hands... can you blame them tho?!  The only other thing I can think of is if you're milking from the back. Lots of folks do this just fine but it seems to take some extra getting used to.


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## Cait (Aug 26, 2021)

Lilgoatgal said:


> Hhhmmm, that's an interesting one. Are your hands cold by chance? Our does will try to get away from cold hands... can you blame them tho?!  The only other thing I can think of is if you're milking from the back. Lots of folks do this just fine but it seems to take some extra getting used to.


My hands are probably cold 🤔 (Ontario Canada lol) I'll try warming them up tomorrow morning. Nope, milking from the side. We worked on it a bit tonight, I scratched under her belly to get her to lift her back up and stand tall and then give her a break. Hopefully I can help her understand to stay in that posture. She really is a sweet and cooperative goat otherwise


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

littleheathens said:


> Similar practices here^^ Lots of petting, touching, shaving and brushing before milking.
> 
> I don't consider hobble/tying ungentle, when it keeps everyone calm. One of mine, too, will dance a little dance when done eating but sometimes that's faster than whoever might be milking. Tying is easier, safer and cleaner for us. Also, for the layers, I have found something under their bellies (like a bucket, child's bench, log) helps to remind them not to lay or get too lazy. I do this (mostly for sheep) when I trim too but I usually use my leg while kneeling if I can get the position right. It works better in the front. I think they get tired, not naughty.


This is our stance too. I have taken some girls to the stand, did all the same things, and they still threw a fit come milking time. It's something completely different and hormones are flowing. I do have some does that get up there, I start milking for the first time, they get a little stompy cause...well...why are you doing that human? And then they stop and we're good to go. But I have had some that no amount of preparing them helped. I did tie legs because it was dangerous for them to be kicking and jumping as I had been kicked in the face before and it's not fun. They usually try to kick a few times and stop. Takes usually no more than a week of training that way and they are perfect. 

For squatters, I have used the bucket technique. Keeps them from dropping their rear down and they eventually stop. There is a level of squatting that's normal as they squat to feed their babies so they will sometimes do the same on the stand. The other thing I do is as I'm milking (I milk from behind so I have a better hold this way) and they start to squat too much, I keep my hands on the teats and gently lift them back up and relieve pressure continuing to milk when they stand nice again.


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## Elbee (12 mo ago)

Lilgoatgal said:


> One other thing we do is mix their grain with lots of chaffhaye so they don't run out during milking and we don't feel tempted to overfeed to gain compliance.


Great idea, I have a doe that firmly maintains a pay to play policy.



Lilgoatgal said:


> Maybe you could add a small strip of wood at the bottom to have that raised up?


Can you post a pic of that please?



littleheathens said:


> Also, for the layers, I have found something under their bellies (like a bucket, child's bench, log) helps to remind them not to lay or get too lazy.


I usually do fine with first fresheners that act up, but the goat that lays on my hands is so frustrating to me. I just sold a lovely doe because three months into her second lactation she was very stubbornly refusing access to her udder. I did full disclosure to the buyer who was happy to get a goat in milk for cheap. Last I heard the husband would stand next to the doe and cradle her belly with one arm while the wife milked. They were happy to take on a problem I had given up on, a real win/win.


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## Cait (Aug 26, 2021)

Jubillee said:


> For squatters, I have used the bucket technique. Keeps them from dropping their rear down and they eventually stop. There is a level of squatting that's normal as they squat to feed their babies so they will sometimes do the same on the stand. The other thing I do is as I'm milking (I milk from behind so I have a better hold this way) and they start to squat too much, I keep my hands on the teats and gently lift them back up and relieve pressure continuing to milk when they stand nice again.


I've tried the bucket thing, using a small bucket or cinder block under her chest so she can lean on that but she still manages to squat/sit with her back legs. She will literally lay her full weight right on the bucket or my hands. Even when I leave the stand unlatched she would rather sit and keep eating than back out. I used to gently hold one of her back legs up and then she'd stand on the other and I could milk with one hand but that doesn't work anymore either


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Cait said:


> I've tried the bucket thing, using a small bucket or cinder block under her chest so she can lean on that but she still manages to squat/sit with her back legs. She will literally lay her full weight right on the bucket or my hands. Even when I leave the stand unlatched she would rather sit and keep eating than back out. I used to gently hold one of her back legs up and then she'd stand on the other and I could milk with one hand but that doesn't work anymore either


I have seen some people make a sling (depends on how high your roof is I suppose) with a sheet or towel that holds them at the level of standing cradling their belly and chest area. It's not tight but firm right at where their belly should be when they stand. You might could try that? Seems a lot to construct but might help until she realizes that milking is ok. 

Does she have kids on her too by chance? I have a doe, she milks great for me, but those first few weeks of having kids, she will squat on me, just like you described, all her weight on top of my hands and bucket. She's just upset with me as she is a very devoted mom. I usually just stand her back up or do the holding one leg like you said until she calms down and is back into the routine.


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## littleheathens (Apr 27, 2019)

Some of these may serve as more of a reminder than a cure, unfortunately. I find milking from the back better. I think the touch on their belly makes them relax into it sometimes. My bigger doe really leans on me if my shoulder touches while milking from the side. I was also going to suggest a sling as an option. What might be easier, depending on your helper situation, is to have someone at the feedpan. When she gets squatty, pull the feed pan away. When she stands up, the feed dish comes back. Retraining. Do tell us what works for her!


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

littleheathens said:


> Some of these may serve as more of a reminder than a cure, unfortunately. I find milking from the back better. I think the touch on their belly makes them relax into it sometimes. My bigger does really leans on me if my shoulder touches while milking from the side. I was also going to suggest a sling as an option. What might be easier, depending on your helper situation, is to have someone at the feedpan. When she gets squatty, pull the feed pan away. When she stands up, the feed dish comes back. Retraining. Do tell us what works for her!


The taking the feed pan away when they get squatty is a good idea! I’m gonna keep that in mind when I start milking again this next year.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

KY Goat Girl said:


> The taking the feed pan away when they get squatty is a good idea! I’m gonna keep that in mind when I start milking again this next year.


 Me too!


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## Cait (Aug 26, 2021)

Update: ok so I ended up going to the barn 3 times this morning in order to get my milking done lmao (between the goats and my 2 month old who comes with me it was a proooocess)

BUT the third time was a little better!! I just put the bucket of feed on the stand for her (because it's kinda hard to get it on/off the hook on the wall) and I took things really slow, like one squirt of milk at a time. Between taking it slow and moving the feed when she sat down things went much better. We'll see how tonight goes 🤞


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

That’s awesome! So glad it’s going a little better for you.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

A little 2.5 gallon bucket might fit under a nigi belly. A few years ago my ff standard nubian was a TERROR. We used tow straps to hold her up and had hobble her. She finally decided she was not gettin out of it and calmed down. But i cried frustrated tears and cussed a LOT for almost a month with her.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Cait said:


> Update: ok so I ended up going to the barn 3 times this morning in order to get my milking done lmao (between the goats and my 2 month old who comes with me it was a proooocess)
> 
> BUT the third time was a little better!! I just put the bucket of feed on the stand for her (because it's kinda hard to get it on/off the hook on the wall) and I took things really slow, like one squirt of milk at a time. Between taking it slow and moving the feed when she sat down things went much better. We'll see how tonight goes 🤞


last winter i had a grandbaby that did chores with me. He either sat in the stroller or i out him in the snuggly on my back. A good hiking pack is an investment you will absolutely not regret! He is a year and half now and he loves the pack still. We use it a lot here.


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## Cait (Aug 26, 2021)

Sfgwife said:


> last winter i had a grandbaby that did chores with me. He either sat in the stroller or i out him in the snuggly on my back. A good hiking pack is an investment you will absolutely not regret! He is a year and half now and he loves the pack still. We use it a lot here.


Thanks 😁 yep he goes in a carrier while I do chores. Once it's warmer we'll try a stroller or playpen too, it's just very chilly right now


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

What I do for squatters or does who lay down, is I hold them down for a few seconds. I reach over their back and grab the other side of the floor of the stand, so the doe is held down with my forearm. I haven't had one who doesn't bounce right back up, deeply offended that I want to hold them down when they lay down. I might have to repeat a couple of times, but it works. If a doe was too much trouble, she'd definitely move on down the road. I don't have time for nonsense.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

first do every thing the same every time. like i touch the doe on the tail head or leg before i touch her udder. this is the hard part every doe has things she dont like. i have one that as soon as i get the inflation's on i remove my hands and she is fine another one i must touch her udder the whole time. I have a step stool for my girls to stand on with there front legs. the stool puts more weight on the hind legs and that stops the dancing.
right now i am down to 6 does but by the middle of April i will be milking 18 Nigies and 8 Lamacha's.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

fivemoremiles said:


> first do every thing the same every time. like i touch the doe on the tail head or leg before i touch her udder. this is the hard part every doe has things she dont like. i have one that as soon as i get the inflation's on i remove my hands and she is fine another one i must touch her udder the whole time. I have a step stool for my girls to stand on with there front legs. the stool puts more weight on the hind legs and that stops the dancing.
> right now i am down to 6 does but by the middle of April i will be milking 18 Nigies and 8 Lamacha's.


Putting a stool for their front feet is smart! I might have to try that one!


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Cait said:


> Thanks 😁 yep he goes in a carrier while I do chores. Once it's warmer we'll try a stroller or playpen too, it's just very chilly right now


we had a fuzzy snuggly thing for the stroller. It was like a sleeping bag kinda. It was great!


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

Here is the step or stool I am using


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## Katrina Anon (6 mo ago)

Goat treats. For anything you do that the goats dislike or hate, follow with a treat.

I had one goat I had to drag into the milk parlor. Once she got use to the treats I have to use a shepherd's crook to keep her out. She got use to being fed in the feed trough and if I turn my back while setting up the Simple Pulse milker she is now on the stand head through the head gate. I feel her breath on my arm when she wants a handful of treats.
She has regular goat feed when milking but every few minutes I drop a handful of treats in her trough, making sure she sees it in my hand.
At the end of milking I lure her out with a few treats and once she starts down the gangway she continues outside.
With every disagreeable activity, I always give treats and that seems to work quite well.


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## Katrina Anon (6 mo ago)

The other thing to establish with the goats is that you are the person with the treats. That means have the treat bag with you whenever you are going to be in contact with the goats. 

Give them just a few morsels not a meal. You need them to maintain their normal feeding schedule and you do not want treats to upset that schedule. You have to be solve it person as far as each goat is concerned.

Even when you use a treat to gain compliance let the goat think it was its idea not yours. Suggest to them when you can what behavior you want, but be direct. Every action you take use a pre and post treat usage so the goat does not decide I ain't doing it no matter what. That treatcan mellow a goat.

One of the milking does was letting me know I was paying to much attention and treats with the doeling. She would bite my shirt and my knife pouch to get my attention. She has changed her attitude a lot because she always stayed away from people period. Now when she thinks treats are involved she tries to figure out what she has to do to get that treat. 

That makes my day a lot easier than trying outwit and corral her. I would love not to have to use treats, but all the goats are usually within arms reach especially when you learn the two hand technique that allows you to grab the halter ring or collar with you free hand (Keep your free hand under the goats head (they might not be able to see where your hand is) and wait for it to start eating the treats.

Of course if I was doing this with 100 goats at once it might be a bigger problem.


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