# Could this be bloat?



## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Or are there other goat digestive issues?
Hasn't been eating hay well 2+ weeks but I thought she was depressed over goat friends leaving.
The past two mornings after milking she just lays down like the feed hurt her belly (stopped grain today)

I did think bloat and try 1/4C Olive oil and rubbing but nothing more than a lot of normal looking poop happened. It did not help or make worse.

Gave baking soda
104* fever
Gave B Complex
Probiotics
Banamine

Yawning and grinding her teeth and looks like she wants to "throw up", gave her Banamine a few hours ago which then she did eat 1/2 small flake but is in considerable pain again since. Looks like she has a belly ache and wants to throw up, bringing up cud is painful.

Her gums are very pale.
Had a fecal twice this year (1 spring 1 summer) both times Negative but has not been dewormed so I wonder if I should deworm.

Never had a goat bloat, I thought it was visible much higher? Her belly is bigger than normal but very low and basketball shaped. Just curious if this could be bloat and I should be aggressively trying to treat that rather than scratch my head and play musical injections?

Have calls into two vets.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Are you sure she doesn't have something stuck in her throat? That doesn't look like bloat.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Not bloating. With the fever and her acting like it is hard to breath I would say pneumonia. Tis the stinking season for it


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I'm not "sure" there isn't something in her throat, but she happily sucks things out of tubes (ProBios, oil, vitamins) and can eat and drink, so it seems like things go down.

I'd wondered about pneumonia- she has 0 coughing or discharge. Kind of seems like it couldn't overly hurt to give antibiotic anyway? It's been very dry here all summer and is still dry. 

Vet wondered about an impaction and said give her more B vitamin and more oil tonight and let him know tomorrow.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She doesn't seem to be under duress, if it was choke.

Fever and no appetite says infection or pneumonia, start antibiotics right away.

Did they check for cocci?

Did you check for lice/mites?


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

OK so just checked her before I go to bed, her temp was 104* at 4PM then I gave her banamine, checked just now at 10PM and its 100* .... ? Ugh

No cocci when she had her last two fecals. 

She struggles to have a nice coat & is always itchy from her dry skin (always been like this) but I haven't seen any bugs crawling on her so I don't think she has lice. 

I have PenG, Nuflor, Draxxin - which one? Would you still think that with the really low temp?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Nuflor or Draxxin are good.

Just so you know, the banamine is dropping her temp temporarily when you give it. Hiding the issue at hand.
It isn't treating her, if she has pneumonia or infection, just covering it.

I would honestly start antibiotics.
104 temp showing up is not good, if it is cool weather.

Be sure to give probiotics and fortified vit B complex SQ, 6 cc's per 100 lbs, a couple of hours or so after giving antibiotics.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Yes, I know that banamine lowered her temp but it's too low now. (And that it's a pain reliever not a cure) 
The vet didn't seem concerned with the temp. 
Do you happen to know the Draxxin dosage? I don't have it written down. 

Will continue Bs and Probiotics. 

She hasn't been eating hay well for a long time, we've realized as we've been discussing it. I think it's just been worse the last two weeks without her friends (she has her April bucklings with her, just no adult does) and with the other does not eating all of the hay for her so I'm noticing the hay she isn't eating. 
I just remembered when the bucklings were 8 weeks or so old I noticed her pale eyelids and gums, had the fecal and it was Neg, tried Redcell for a few days but she didn't eat each day I have it to her. 

That was two months or more ago, and hasn't been noticeably and issue again until now. What should I do for the pale lids/gums? 

Vet thought deworming her with Safeguard for a few days but I'm not sure if she can have everything together right now?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

No sometimes pneumonia doesn’t show classic signs. Either way though something is up. I have no idea on the draxxin  but 100 is pretty low. Keep a eye on it and if it lowers any more she needs to be warmed up. I’ll look at the video again and see if she is showing signs of needing copper. Lack of copper will cause pale lids. When was the last time she had a fecal?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok without my glasses on it looks like she might have a fish tail. Check that out for yourself. I could only see her tail on the one where she is laying down and I’m half blind and she was far away. If she does go ahead and give her some copper. But watch that temp. That would be making me nervous


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

yeah i think i saw fishtail too. if u could post pics of her tail, that would be great!


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Yep! She does have a fishtail and a bald tip on her tail. 

Would a copper deficiency make her like this? 

That's the thing, shes a less thrifty and sensitive type goat so I haven't pulled the antibiotics trigger because she's gone off feed a few times since kidding and while milking. I really think selling her doe friends made her go over the edge, I am trying to figure out which deficiency to treat and not OD the goat. 
I am always giving her something because she seems permanent deficient (she did NOT get colostrum as a kid long story and I think that's why) 

I gave her a copper bolus last winter, then in June and fecal was Neg. but no improvement in her tail if anything it got worse so I actually gave it to her three days ago again. (2.5 months later) 

She gets regular Sweetlix mineral, Kelp, Replamin paste, Goat drench, Probiotics... 

So if her tail does not improve, how long before you'd give another copper? 
She did chew this one I didn't manage to get it all the way down but she didn't spit any out.

Temp 103 this morning (17hrs after banamine) and she did eat maybe a small flake of hay over night... 

I haven't found the Draxxin dose online, i did find 1cc per 100# but is this a daily or a one dose then another in 3 days kind of thing, does anyone know?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok I’m finding a few different dosages on the draxxin (ugh frustrating!) one says for 5 days, most say one time deal and I have found you have to give it twice 7 days apart. If someone doesn’t jump on here and help i personally would give the one and then see how she is doing. 
No the copper won’t really help with anything but the anemia (if that’s why she is anemic) BUT it does help with over all health. Sadly it will take a little while for it to kick in.
Every goat and every place is different when it comes to minerals and so many factors play a part in what is needed and how often. FOR ME I have to give 9 grams of copper every 4 months. Most that will catch them before they really start to show signs of copper, a few will already be getting fish tails and start showing major signs of needing copper by that time. How big of a bolus are you giving? If it has been 2.5 months since you gave the last one I would go ahead and give it again. You should start to see improvement by about a month, if not sooner. But you also might be under dosing. I know it is super scary on the ODing. But copper bolus is pretty dang safe because it’s not a dose NOW it just slowly gets absorbed. Don’t go jumping into a large dose like I give or anything but try and get the recommended 1 gram per 22 pounds.
Do you have any goats at all with her? If not is there anyway you could get her a friend. She might be stressed and not eating because of that and also stress lowers the immune system. Listen to her stomach and make sure her Stomach is making good rumbling sounds and often. Her rumen might also be off or not working like it should with her not eating and not feeling well.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Thankyou! 

She is with her two April bucklings right now. And I was planning to get our new doe today, but now I will be putting that doe in a separate pen until we know what is going on.

Yes I have copper 2.5 months ago, then again 3 days ago.

I will check her temp again when I get home. Thankyou for looking into dosages! Are you finding 1cc per 100# as well?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

1cc per 100 lbs. Once every 7 days. If pneumonia is confirmed, my vet likes to do 2 shots for a 14 day coverage.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How long has she been given the banamine? If it has been given every day for a long period of time, it may of created an issue such as stomach and intestinal irritation and/or ulceration.
That may be the pain she is enduring while regurgitating and it coming out her nose.

Acidosis also comes to mind too.
What kind of grain was she getting prior and how much was fed?

She needs a true friend, I hope she hasn't been bred by her buck kids.

Yes, Draxxin is 1cc per 100 lbs. SQ.
2 shots, 7 days apart for a 14 day coverage. 
If her temp is regulating, that is good, not sure on antibiotics if she is keeping it.

Red cell should be given for 7 days, 6 cc's per 100 lbs, then 1 x a week until to famancha borderline coloring. 
Stop at anytime, if her color does reach "borderline coloring".

As I had mentioned before, if she isn't eating, she hasn't had her minerals either, so Copper bolusing as needed is a good idea. Add minerals to her diet somehow. 
I will give 1- 4 gm copper bolus, wait 4 months. If they do not have hair growing back on tail tip by then, I give another and so on until they are back to normal.

No, copper deficiency won't make her ill in this way. But it takes time for the hair to grow back.

Do you have a lot of iron in your water, if so, that is canceling out the copper. Filtering your water or getting an expensive watering system will help.

She is itching in the video, may be lice causing anemia.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Her temp is 101.5 right now. 
I guess I am monitoring that before starting antibiotics. 

She had banamine only ONCE, yesterday at 4PM and her gut issue has been going on LONG prior  

I am bringing her three year old daughter back today to see if that is a major part. She was only going to be without a doe friend until we found a new milker, which fell through and left her with just the boys for this time. I'm looking though!

Her bucklings were banded 8 weeks ago but still haven't fallen off, I have not seen them "act buckish" for 6 weeks nor has she been in heat so I'm not worried about that. 

I will try the Redcell but does it mess with the Copper I just gave her 3 days ago? 

Thanks so much!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree I would just keep a eye on the temp for now. Check her again this evening and see what it says. I believe banamine is every 24 hours so let’s wait and see what goes on. I also found the 1 per 100# for the dose. 
The red cell will mess with the copper but your kinda between a rock and a hard spot right now. How pale would you say she is? If her fecal is negative and she is showing signs of needing copper though that’s my guess at the moment. My goats are always itchy even when they don’t have lice but won’t hurt a darn thing to check her. They really like the neck area so check her out good there. If need be get some clipper and shave a little area and see if you can find some. 
Those dang hard luck ones sure drive a person mad huh!


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Right! Totally taking a shot in the dark at which one she needs...
I have Copersure 4g she had one back in June but I gave Redcell after for two or three days and she didn't feel well when I have the Redcell wbckh was odd so I stopped. Then she had another bolus a few days ago.
I have never seen lice or mites on any of our goats - I could be blind, but she's never had them that I can see. And she is very sparse haired so it seems like I'd see them!
I have several old posts on her reguarding this doe and her dry itchy bald skin that has never been figured out so that is why she was itching.

I attached a photo of her gums it's not great but goats aren't super at holding still. Eyelids are pale.








BUT good news is her temp is still holding at norm, 102 this evening. I stole her daughter back from my friend and she is eating this evening and shoving her daughter around!
Continuing b and probiotics.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh good news on both the eating and temp! Oh she had me worried on that temp. I hate when they are under 101 and freaks me out more then a temp. Has mariarose jumped in on the hair issue? She is pretty handy on minerals and also she can tell you all about the minerals you are giving. But if it’s just a simple case of dry skin even with minerals being good there’s a few things you could try. May not hurt anyways. A tiny bit of olive oil in her grain or a small handful of BOSS. I have actually used veggie oil because that’s what I always have on hand and I live away from town and haven’t had any issues with it. But with her gut kinda off I wouldn’t do much at the moment. A group I’m part of recommends giving coconut oil to them but those are pigs with dry skin, honestly probably any oil would do  
But hopefully she keeps up on feeling a little better and starts doing a lot better!


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I might try some coconut oil. Hmmm.
But just about everything else under the sun she's had. Her whole top line goes almost bald every summer. It started minor her first spring as a yearling and worsens every year. So she LOOKS like she's a mangey mutt for a while. 

She's on a high quality feed, alfalfa pellets, alfalfa as well as my horses normal 1st cutting hay, has pasture all summer, BOSS, flax, kelp, biotin or gelatin depending what I have, access to sweet lix minerals, baking soda, plain salt, gets goat drench, Replamin and like we've been discussing has had her 3rd bolus this year. Veggies  spoiled. But That's why I'm always worried to OD her but she still shows symptoms of deficiency. 

She's just a special kid. We've had the hair looked at by a very good vet 2hrs away and had skin scrapings done, tried special skin treatments and shampoos. What actually works best is bathing her in milk and oatmeal and using a lard/comefry and NuStock every spring/summer then her hair comes back. 

I'm guessing what she's going through now is due to something feed/deficient related and the stress of loosing her friends/kidding/milking. 
I wish I knew if it was copper or iron she needed, I'll pick the wrong one lol. 
Thanks so much for your thoughts, help and concerns!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I think she's getting alot - and perhaps some things are cancelling out others. Pull the salt and baking soda, and let her get the minerals. Not too much BOSS , idk gelatin - I would put her on a great hay, loose minerals and a little grain and try to work on her rumen adding probiotics. You can mix the kelp with her minerals, it really doesn't take much. She really has had a lot thrown at her, simplifying her diet may help get her on an even footing. I agree with the pneumonia diagnosis, if she's had her antibiotics, adding the probiotics wil help. I would simplify things at this point for her.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Are you doing weekly Replamin Plus? Is it just the regular Replamin or Replamin Plus?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

goatblessings said:


> I think she's getting alot - and perhaps some things are cancelling out others. Pull the salt and baking soda, and let her get the minerals. Not too much BOSS , idk gelatin - I would put her on a great hay, loose minerals and a little grain and try to work on her rumen adding probiotics. You can mix the kelp with her minerals, it really doesn't take much. She really has had a lot thrown at her, simplifying her diet may help get her on an even footing. I agree with the pneumonia diagnosis, if she's had her antibiotics, adding the probiotics wil help. I would simplify things at this point for her.


 I do agree, except for the grain part. 
I wouldn't introduce grain until she has been good for at least a few days. 
I would not allow her to eat anything with molasses in it or major corn products when she is better and you can start her on grain again. 
What kind of high quality grain was she getting?

At this time, if she has been licking the baking soda, I would leave it out for her in a separate area from her minerals, until she has been better for a while in case it is ulcers or some other type of rumen issues, especially if her body needs it.

Giving red cell does have iron in it but, if she is anemic, she may need it. 
The copper bolus is a slow release, so she has it in her system for a while. 
Give it every 4 months if she is still showing fishtail signs.

I am so glad she is regulating temp and eating. So happy her daughter is back, she should do much better.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Goatblessings - she is getting a lot. But always seems to do less well, with less. She did not get antibiotics because she has not had a temp again since the op.

She did not get colostrum as a kid and idk what kind of long term effects take place but I've attributed some seemingly repetitive deficiencies to that.

Ks - I am not doing Replamin weekly, it varries, usually closer to monthly.. It is the "plus" I believe?

Toth - I agree with leaving the baking soda, they all eat it and get fresh weekly. Same with their minerals. I've just always left those out.
She gets Kalmbach grain, 2 cups a day, with alfalfa pellets and a little handful of boss. I am looking to switch her from textured feed to a good pelleted.

She gets a few carrots to slow her down on the milk stand.

Thanks all!
She's taken several strolls around the pasture now that her older daughter is home.
She's still "off" but praying she keeps getting better.
Her milk production was back up this morning, too, which surprised me.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You really need to do the Replamin Plus weekly to see good results. I bet she would improve if you do it weekly.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I think I "have" done it weekly, but not recently.
I've tried a very simple diet and leaving her alone and giving everything but the kitchen sink and with "the everything" her skin is healthier but she's just what she is!

Ok it is the plus, and would you give it weekly on top of everything else?!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes. I would give it weekly.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

What is the goat drench? Is it the nutradrench? (Spell check) if so I would lay off of that stuff.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

^ 
Yes!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She looks happy now, glad she is improving. Prayers sent. 

I would only have the baking soda out free choice for a little while, until you think she is 100% again. Then only give it as needed. Not good to have it out 24/7 if they have no issues.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Nutridrench does burn the throat. So you don't want to give it a lot.


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## Audrey LeRoux (Apr 3, 2018)

Sounds like you may want to consult with a vet about a good management program for your goats. Between feed, minerals, supplements, vitamins, etc. Every area is different as is every goat. But you can send in blood samples and get a complete mineral screen done on each individual goat and adjust your program as needed. 
Chasing deficiencies will never get you ahead, and it can really make diagnosing issues a pain in the rear. I hope your doe continues to improve and doesn't cause you any more worry.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

How is she doing?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How are things today?


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I think she feels a little better. Still watching and praying. 

I have consulted many vets... 

Having a blood test is a great idea, can I draw it and send it myself?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She is looking good.

Yes, you can draw and send in your own blood sample. Not yours, but the goats, LOL.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

UPDATE & more questions :/ 
Her temp since the banamine brought it so low, then stayed quite normal for a while but since I think ? Monday has been 103.9 - she's been up and down with feeling better and CHOWING on hay vrs feeling poorly similar to my OP. Since we've not seen progress and everyone seems to agree pneumonia we gave her Draxxin the other day, but have not noticed much difference.
Now this evening she's making sad goat sounds, not interest in dinner and her temp is 104.2 :-( 

Should I give her banamine to lower it again (she only had the one shot since my OP) ? 

If it was Pneumonia wouldn't the bucklings get it? They've been perfectly fine. Just wondering if I should give the second dose of antibiotics the 7 days from the first or switch antibiotics or if that isn't it at all (I read some give 1 dose some give the 2nd) I don't know what to do at this point :/


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Our vet did nuflor and uhhhh another one when my lil lady had pneumonia. The nuflor was once and the other was twice... five days from the first i think. I would think you need give the second dose still though.


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## BearBrookFarm (Feb 12, 2018)

My doe had the same issues.. skin issues which caused other issues. ive tried everything under the sun. replenish, sun flower seeds, kelp, ect. vet recommended half a teaspoon on zin pro, every day (for ever) and copper bolous because she was loosing hair around her eyes. its working! try it.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

TY if we get her past this I will try that! 

Anyone know If the antibiotics seem to make no difference should we switch? Banamine for the fever OK? 
Vet doesn't seem concerned but I know something is wrong with her. 

I'm trying to be very light on the grain with her stomach but she's loosing more weight :/ 

She was blood tested for Johnes (neg) I know they need fecal Bla Bla Bla but Johnes is when they're eating and acting normal but just loose weight and essentially starve isn't it? This is not that? 

Shouldn't our other goats get it if it was pneumonia?


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I've been googling. Could it be lung worms? Can she be dewormed while on Antibiotics and banamine?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Banamine does hide real symptoms and temp.

Draxxin is the big guns and nothing happened with it, oh no, not good.
How long since it was given? 
Has it at least been a couple of days since it was given?
Or has it been longer? If is has, and she has not improved, I would try a different antibiotic maybe Nuflor daily for 5 to 7 days. 

Banamine is OK to give up to 4 days safely, then as needed.

Pneumonia is not contagious no.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I know  
Good to know re Pneumonia I did not know that it was not contagious... 
It has been 5 days since the Draxxin. I have a call into the vet to buy different antibiotic. I'll ask for Nuflor. 
I did just note that my Draxxin is 10 months expired, ugh opps, maybe that's why? But it's been stored temp controlled and packaged just as a bought it so it seems like it shouldn't be completely dead. 
She hasn't eaten any hay that I've seen today and she fell down  
It's just odd to me that she's felt "meh" for a long time, half of the summer, only recently has it been this bad and makes me wonder if something else is going on.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Ugg, 10 months old may be the issue.

When she was off prior, she could of had an off rumen. Did you ever give her probiotics and fortified vit B complex?
6 cc's per 100 lbs SQ.
If her rumen was and is not working properly, it can lower the immune system.
I would give her some probiotics and fortified vit B complex SQ for a while, a couple of hours after antibiotics are given or at the end of the day to help her.

Also has a fecal been done for cocci and worms, that too can make them vulnerable to a weak immune system.
As well as mites/lice.

How are her inner lower eyelid coloring?

Does she lick from her loose salt and minerals? Any deficiency signs?


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

She has loose minerals, hasn't wanted any this last one-two weeks but usually eats them.

When she was "off" before during this summer yes on the ProBios and occasional B complex
This past one to two weeks she's been getting regular B complex shots (daily) and Probiotic paste and powder. 

No mites/lice. Last two fecals (spring and summer) were neg so she hasn't been dewormed since over the winter. 

Eye lids and mouth/gums are pale. 

She did get a copper bolus 1 week ago and 3 months before that.


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## BearBrookFarm (Feb 12, 2018)

Also, Ive had issues with a goat coughs which I initially thought was pnemonia, I took thier temps every day for two weeks, which ranged from 100 to 104.4 depending on the weather, or of they were running around.. I was then told by a vet that not until above 104.5 are they concerned. Ended up just being a cold. Obviously something is wrong, but it may not be the pnemonia.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Update-

Vet does not think 10 month expired Draxxin is a problem and said it should be fine.
He does not consider her to really "have a worrisome temp" and said all he can do is a blood panel to see if she is in fact fighting an infection. He still Doesn't suspect pneumonia.

He said rather than Draxxin he would suggest Penicillin 2x daily for a week at this point IF we wanted to continue to try antibiotics again.

Continue B and Probiotics.
He also said deworming couldn't hurt to give a shot.

And has basiclly refered me to taking her to a University if this does not help or continues as it all sounds unusual and there isn't much else to do.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I do not agree with the vet, that 104.5 is not a concern. 
Anything over 103.5 is concerning if the goat is off and you give the goat time to cool down in the shade for a while before taking a temp.
If you feel it may be from running around or being in direct sunlight, then wait until evening when it is cool or morning time. 
Biomycin 200 is better for repository issues, than PenG, but may work.

For coughing, have you considered lungworms? Another thing I hate to say is CL, which I hope is not the issue.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Thanks.
I think it's a fever too. It's been up shade or sun, night or day, 55* or 80* and she's certainly not running around or overly active. Been taking it at least twice daily. 
BUT, She does NOT have a cough, hasn't had any respiratory issues no cough, no snot and no sneezing. 
She just has her temp, won't eat hay, loosing weight, spends most of her day laying down, does stand around and yawn/grind her teeth. And breathes REALLY heavy sometimes others more normal (Video on the first page, looks like she wants to throw up basiclly)

Can I use horse past Ivermectrin for lung worms in case that's it?


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## Audrey LeRoux (Apr 3, 2018)

I think you should have started PenG when you first posted. PenG is super cheap and you're not going to kill a goat if administered correctly. Banamine can be harmful if given too long, my vet said no more than three days in a row for the banamine. You may want to consult with a different vet, ideally one who deals with goats regularly.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok she is kinda reminding me of a doe that I had. She was always sick and some days she seemed better other days she just was bad. Temp off and on. She eventually went down. When I went to pick her up to get her on her feet my finger went Into a gooey hole on her chest floor. Check that! It seems absolutely stupid but it was just pure dumb luck I even noticed it. Now that is pretty much on my list of “to check”. Eye lids, temp, rumen and now chest plate. There should be a pad of no skin there but there shouldn’t be any redness or of course pus fill sores or any sores at all. I’m thinking outside the box here for you :/


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## Karen Kuntz (Apr 25, 2018)

You mentioned you are milking her? Have you checked her urine with a dipstick that checks for ketones? Have you seen her tremble or shiver? Milk fever crossed my mind. When my doe had ketosis she had a fever, would not eat hay or grain. Just a thought.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Thanks, I am thankful for any suggestions.

That's crazy! I'll check for any holes in the goat lol 

No other vets to call. The other one in the area would tell me to eat her at this point. 

I haven't given banamine "long"... It's been twice in a week and a low dose both times. 

Yes, I've been milking her. Planned on milking her for the next year but I am currently drying her off due to this and everything we keep sticking in her. 
I have not seen her tremble or shiver and I was completely unaware there was a ketone measuring stick? So I have not done that.


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

When was the last time you had a fecal run on her? Worms don't usually cause fever, but they could contribute to a weakened system. Also, you don't always see the eggs every time one is run. If it has been warm and wet there, I would suggest having another fecal run.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

jschies said:


> When was the last time you had a fecal run on her? Worms don't usually cause fever, but they could contribute to a weakened system. Also, you don't always see the eggs every time one is run. If it has been warm and wet there, I would suggest having another fecal run.


Fecal this spring and then again in late June/early July both neg. 
it has been a very dry summer, but I figure another fecal or deworming her won't hurt to try.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is Ok to give banamine for 4 days in a row. Longer with the guidance of a vet.

If she is not preggo, ketones will not be a factor.

She needs antibiotics to try to help kick it out. But daily for 7 days.
As mentioned, check for abscesses or wounds. Also check in her mouth for any tooth abscesses. But be careful.

If she is nor coughing, she doesn't have lungworms. I just thought I had read she had a cough, sorry.

If she is not eating, make a alfalfa pellet slurry and slowly drench her with it.
Every few hours.
1/4 cup alfalfa pellets and water, mix in a blender. Get a new turkey baster or a huge syringe. She needs food so her rumen does not stop.
Any gut sounds/movement?
No grain.
Electrolytes is good to give.

She is losing weight from not eating.

It is good to get her up and moving around as much as possible.

The video on the 1st page, it almost seems like she is trying to regurgitate cud, but nothing there.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Update:
No responce to Draxxin - temp stayed 104.2 ish that week
No responce to Penicillin - day 4 today and her temp jumped to 105.2
Dewormed with Ivermec last week.
Continue: Daily B complex and probiotics.
Drinks juice or molasses flavored water or electrolytes 

She's still up and slowly wonders around even less interested in food now. Still NO cough or discharge.
Does breathe heavy (has for 3 weeks now?)

QUESTION:
The vet has agreed to sell her some Nuflor, picking that up today. Dosage?
From everything I read online pneumonia seems to take them out quickly, is it unlikely that is what it is going on 3 weeks now?

Also completely unrelated but rather than a new thread maybe someone can field this question - it seems like nothing goes "normal" here (lol, sigh) Her buck kids were banded 10 weeks ago and are still in tact, is that at all normal? Vet said two weeks and they'd fall off.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Quite frankly I'd be working on her rumen with rumen boluses. Sounds like she needs more than probiotics. If Draxxin and Penicillin don't work, I'd be looking at another treatment and not more antibiotics.

Takes more than 2 weeks.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> Quite frankly I'd be working on her rumen with rumen boluses. Sounds like she needs more than probiotics. If Draxxin and Penicillin don't work, I'd be looking at another treatment and not more antibiotics.


I'd love to! But I did not know there was anything else "to do." I keep getting "your using the wrong antibiotic" opinions from
various places I contact. 
What can cause a 105 temp besides something requiring antibiotics? And labored breathing? And off feed? 
I don't even know what they are so I will have to look into rumen boluses. I feel like I've scoured the Internet for 3hrs a day for the past couple of weeks trying to learn as fast as I can, I've never had a sick goat or kid! Sure this ones always been unthrifty but she's been "fine" and it's just her. So this is all news to me.

I'm still worried about anemia. She does NOT have lice or mites and her fecals all year have been neg but she always has pale eyelids, they're quite pale I'd say almost white right now. I dewormed her anyway last week and am getting a new fecal/check for cocci.

So despite always looking copper deficient I think I am going to try iron again...

I looked into where to send blood for a blood panel and mineral deficiency and cannot find HOW as I would need to do something more to the blood than send a tube of it and I have no way of doing that.

Again just curious does anyone with pneumonia experience know if they can just have it for three weeks? Everything I read seems like it's quick, I just wondered if I scratch it off the list or if thats still an option.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Have you tried a different thermometer?
Maybe it isn't accurate?


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

toth boer goats said:


> Have you tried a different thermometer?
> Maybe it isn't accurate?


Lol good thought, I've had that happen with a horse before! Yes I'm using two different thermometers. 
And she just "acts" like she has a fever, and is noticeably hotter to the touch than the other three goats.


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## Audrey LeRoux (Apr 3, 2018)

Maureen said:


> Update:
> No responce to Draxxin - temp stayed 104.2 ish that week
> No responce to Penicillin - day 4 today and her temp jumped to 105.2
> Dewormed with Ivermec last week.
> ...


Have you tried a different vet?? Because no vet should be writing a Rx without putting the dosage on the label. And banded testicles do not fall off within two weeks!! That can take a couple months or longer for some goats!


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Audrey LeRoux said:


> Have you tried a different vet?? Because no vet should be writing a Rx without putting the dosage on the label. And banded testicles do not fall off within two weeks!! That can take a couple months or longer for some goats!


This is the best vet in the area.

WOW what a relief on the bucklings! (These are our first bucklings, no experience with whethering before)

You guys have no idea how greatful that I am for you all, your help and suggestions over the past couple of years. You've helped me, and I've helped a few friends and neighbors over the past couple of years. You've all aided many goats in our journey - Thankyou!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh I came on here hoping she was feeling better  
I’m sure a animal could have pneumonia for 3 weeks if not treated but you have treated her and draxxin is supposed to be the strongest antibiotic there is. So I really don’t know what to say on that whole thing. If you do go with nuflor it’s 3cc per 100 pounds. 
Ok new thought! Check her for mastitis. No lumps or warm to the touch, no clunkers in the milk if she still has milk. When I was dealing with mastitis in one of my does and it was BAD I googled like crazy and I guess any antibiotics in a shot does do much it’s infusions that work. So maybe that’s what’s going on??? Other then that I’ve got nothing on what could be going on that the antibiotics wouldn’t work. 
I have no idea on the blood. From my understanding most minerals can only be tested threw the liver. But if not then I wouldn’t think you would have to do anything other then draw blood and probably keep it cool and ship it. If you found a place probably give them a call. 
I’m sorry she still isn’t feeling good


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good idea.

I wonder if they can take a blood sample and see if she has a high white blood count, indicating infection, if she doesn't have mastitis.

It is bizarre for sure. 
Draxxin is the most potent out there and should of knocked out any infection.
So I too, am very confused.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Confusing indeed. 
No mastitis (I don't think, ive never dealt with that either!) but her udder is not hot and milk looks fine other than they yellow tinge from B Complex and meds. I am trying to dry her off.

Id like a CBC,






trying to find someone to do it. I don't want to have to haul her around for hours in the car right now.

I'm going with treating anemia for now.

I saw that in people severe anemia causes shallow labored breathing and people will eat dirt/sand - maybe that's the breathing issue and she does eat sand right now.

I thought she was anemic around June/early July and gave her Red Cell for a few days but it seemed to make her worse so I got nervous and stopped. That is WHY I had a fecal done in June/July which was Neg.

The barber pole worm that everyone talks about making them anemic would should up on a fecal correct? she was Neg at that time.

I did deworm with Ivermectrin horse paste 7 days ago just because at this point in whatever is going on.... Why not.

But I don't know why she would be anemic without parasites.
And I cannot find anything that has a persistent fever (going on 2.5 weeks now I think) linked to anemia.

She has had 8cc Red Cell daily for 3 days now.

Attached a picture of her and our only other adult goat her daughter.

Should I stick with Redcell and keep going until it changes, UP the Redcell, buy Iron inject from TSC and give instead or along with - I read so many different opinions and things people have done online. I don't want to OD her but she is clearly anemic. I still need to find out WHY and WHY she has a fever. Also WHY she doesn't seem to absorb from the otherwise fine diet they're fed. AND she is copper deficient despite the minerals, feed and 3 bolus this year. :what:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes I would go ahead with the red cell at this point. It’s been a few weeks (yes?) since she has had copper and she shouldn’t still be that pale if that was the case. I have never heard of giving both red cell and iron at the same time. I would do one or the other unless someone comes along and says different. I think the only difference between the two is the injection would get into her system faster, which you have already started it so it should already be doing something. And red cell has other vitamins and minerals in it, not just iron. So that might do her some good.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Yes she had copper at least 10 days ago now, it's hard to remember exactly when. She just keeps getting weaker.
She is up and around, very slow, carefully jumps herself onto the milking stand, nibbles at hay, greets people but she definitely doesn't feel well and has gotten weaker and worse, not better, thus far.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, do not give iron shots and red cell at the same time. The shot form can easily be overdosed.
Do the red cell, she is really white.

Give B-complex and probiotics and a small Bo-Se shot boost to help her immune system, if she hasn't had selenium or may look deficient.

I found this link.
https://www.dairygoatinfo.com/threads/suzies-fight-with-pneumonia-updated.22970/
It has some same things as you are experiencing with fever and nothing working. 
Sadly the goat died and they did an necropsy. It may be the answer to her issue. I would call your vet and show them this finding, maybe something can be done for her knowing this.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Redcell OK at 8cc for a really anemic looking 125 ish # goat? (She's medium sized, Alpine/Pygmy) 
She's had two a Bo-Se shot or two this year, I think, I'll have to check.

Thankyou for that link. I think I've read that one, (I've read the whole goat related Internet this week) I found that one to be interestingly similar and this: (second post on the 3rd page, says what happened, to save time) sounds like her symptoms too

https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/severely-anemic-goat-vet-visit.464174/

I guess I will just keep trying what I can. Thankyou all for your thoughts, again


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

But does your doe have the runs? I was actually just thinking maybe something inside the guts but I’m pretty sure she would have the runs. Neomycin surly wouldn’t harm her though. There’s even people who will use it after a heavy worm load. It is also the only oral antibiotic that will not just stop at the gut but go on threw the intestines as well. 
Johnes could be possible. But it’s pretty much like cancer, (which could also be a possibility) there isn’t a dang thing you can do about it. But I think I have read that you can use a stool sample to check. Do a search to be sure but I think it’s more accurate then a blood test. But if she has it and she is at the point of wasting away I would think that it would be able to be picked up threw the blood if this was the case.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

She does not have the runs. Normal manure.

I hope it's not Johnes, we drink their milk. (Not her in the last few weeks as I'm drying her off because of whatever this is)
All were blood tested Negative for CAE/CL/Johnes last fall (less than a year ago) so if that's accurate she shouldn't have that, obviously I have no personal experience with Johnes but I keep wondering. I thought they were hungry and ate like crazy but starved anyway with that :/

I will look into that antibiotic, I haven't heard of it!

Are there parasites that wouldn't show up on a fecal test that I should deworm with something other than Ivermec maybe?

Can I use steroids/Dex to control her temp? Is that any easier on their stomach? I know in horses you can give a big ole dose and taper down over 20 days, we had to do that on an older mare who had a fever. Well, shoot, I think I remember that's a major immune suppressor and I don't need that right now. I cannot keep her temp under control without banamine every other or every third day. 

Aspirin? Is that any easier on their bellies?


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

Liver fluke doesn't always show on fecals and causes anemia. You need Ivermectin Plus or Valbazen for them. I hope she gets better for you. I think a CBC would be a great idea if you can get one done.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think it’s also lung worms that won’t show up.
You could use Dex for the fever but dex can lower the immune system. You also want to work your way up to whatever dose you want to give and then lower it slowly when she gets better. There is also no one dose fits all. It’s hard to figure out what dose to use because depending on what is going on and how severe it is on how much to give. I think if you go that way defiantly have your vet walk you threw it and keep a eye on things


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Thanks, Maybe I'll try Ivermec plus. I was just wondering that.

OK so tonight I was massaging her itchy lumps from all the shots and realized I could feel her heart pounding through her rib cage on the left side.
140+ beats per min and hard. Resting.
Now I'm googling that. Not coming up with much, course high heart rate would be a symptom of people not sure why it wouldn't be for goats. Crazy. 

She drank some flavored water (I have to offer a variety of flavors, she'll eventually pick one, tonight was Chloryphyll added to water) she takes 3-4 cups at a time 3-4 times a day.
She's actually eaten about a flake of hay in the course of the day.
Carrots, celery, an apple, a little fresh alfalfa and a few mittfulls of leaves...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Such a mystery, I am sorry we are not pin pointing it. But there are some idea's.

I do agree with what has been said and to try.

Red cell: If she is 125 lbs, 7.5 cc would 
suffice. 

Dex is tricky and an antibiotic which needs to be given at the same, to as it does lower the immune system, it should be guided by a vet as it also must be weaned off when wanting to stop it. 
Unless it is used very short term like a couple of days. It is risky in it's own way as it is with Banamine.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well hopefully that is a sign she is feeling better! That is the most she has ate for awhile is t it? 
That’s odd you can’t find anything about the heart beat. I remember in pretty much every book I bought it says to check the heart rate and what is normal so you would think there would be something on it!


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Probably no on the Dex then.

One more thought/question - her manure and I think ? pee have smelled really sweet/fermented it's hard to explain, not nasty rank but "sick/Ill" smelling, increasing for maybe a month? Does that ring any bells?

I have found what their heart rate should be, just not "OK it's double and felt with electric shock level power through the rib cage, here's why" - no change in the heart rate today..

She will still take fluids happily at least 4 times a day so I should be getting 3/4 gallon in, in various flavors.

Today she was down more than she's been this week  If she expends a little energy fighting a shot or vigorously eats for a few moments she wipes herself out. She is fighting SO HARD. I am amazed, she's a precious little doe. So sad 

The fever is persistent, 104-105 and makes her feel 10 times worse, I've been giving banamine every other or every third day. A low dose given this infrequent takes the fever away and seems to help with some of whatever pain she seems to be in.
I'd think infection with the fever, but I'd also think a severe infection wouldn't have its fever easily reduced for 48+hrs with a 12hr under dosed drug. UGH!

We are trying to decide what to try next.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

The poop/ pee is probably something your giving her. When I give a lot of Vitamin B I notice a different smell. Same as if I have a doe with preg. Tox. And the crap I give for it.
She is a fighter and I just can not imagine what else it could be! She is in my thoughts most of the day trying to think of something it could be and I’m coming up blank


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Thankyou! 

We are so fresh out of ideas. 

The smell happened before I was treating her, I noticed it while milking over the summer and just didn't think much of it until this past couple of weeks. 

I have a wonderful horse vet who I could take her to 2+ hrs away, they've seen her before for her crazy skin issues, but I just think that it is too much to bring her, it would wipe her clean out


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

One more thing besides the sweet/yet gross smelling poop is just like the title, she still acts like she she has bloat but yet doesn't. 
Today she has made a TON of burp and gurgle sounds and it is clearly painful and hard to bring up cud, though she does.
Can they get an infection somewhere in there?


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

I would call that vet and see if they will at least look at the information that you have on here. I wonder if she has something stuck in her digestive tract somewhere that is causing infection. It really sounds like you will lose her if you don't figure out why she is anemic and what the stomach issues are.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

jschies said:


> I would call that vet and see if they will at least look at the information that you have on here. I wonder if she has something stuck in her digestive tract somewhere that is causing infection. It really sounds like you will lose her if you don't figure out why she is anemic and what the stomach issues are.


Agreed.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.

I wonder if it is ulcers in the throat and/or gut. That would cause pain when regurgitation happens. Maybe it festered and she has bad infection in there?


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

toth boer goats said:


> I agree.
> 
> I wonder if it is ulcers in the throat and/or gut. That would cause pain when regurgitation happens. Maybe it festered and she has bad infection in there?


I no joke just thought about ulcers and if goats even get them, been looking that up.
What do they do to treat them? I will try asking our vet but he tapped out a while ago.


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## Karen Kuntz (Apr 25, 2018)

Do you think your vet would be willing to do bloodwork, blood cultures and a urinalysis?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I’m not sure what it’s called but I had a goat that had preg. Tox. Once and when the vet saw she was pooping black said she might have ulcers. I seriously couldn’t tell you what the stuff was called but he gave me these little viles to put into her IV line because of it. So I mean I guess it is treatable, the doe lived.
The trip probably would be a bit hard on her to go to that vet. I would first call and see what she has to say and even if she can help. But I don’t think I would think twice about making the trip if she wants to bring her in. If she was slowly doing better then no I wouldn’t chance it. But she is not and I think she has probably reached a point SOMETHING has to be done......which yes you are doing things! And you are doing great but none of the shooting in the dark seems to be hitting its target. And I am in no way saying anything bad about doing so, I have done it more times then I can count. But of course that is if this vet is a good one. I wouldn’t do it with any of the vets around here. All I would end up with is a dead goat, a big vet bill and no answers. But I agree call and talk to the vet and see what she has to say and if she wants to see her decide if the vet is worth the trip.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

I think this goat may be in liver failure. Liver makes red blood cells. If you get blood drawn, check liver also.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Found my notes on ulcer treatment.


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## Karen Kuntz (Apr 25, 2018)

How is she?


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

do you have any other goats that head butt her in the gut, im thinking that it is possible she has a very small bleed that is getting worse and makeing her anemic. 
you sound like you are doing a great job


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very possible.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

could some one help you and ultra sound her to see if there is something wrong inside that you cant see? or the vet can do an X-ray?


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Thanks everyone!

She turned a bit of a corner a couple of days ago, praise God!

Her eyelids only have ever so slight the lightest tinge of pink to them, improvement but minimal, so I am thinking continue daily Red Cell. Her heart rate is still crazy, but her temp has stayed at 103.7 ish for 48 hrs past when banamine was wearing off for her! (Today is day 5 without it and she was requiring it every 48hrs to not go completely down) She ate like crazy yesterday! All the hay she could get her beak on!
Sunday her rumen barely made any noise and she wasn't even trying to eat so I researching what to do and trying to decide "milk of mag... Beer... Milk of mag... Beer..." Went with beer because I did not want to add diarrhea to her list. She ate well Monday and much more so Tuesday. She kicked her milk production up which isn't what I'm looking for, trying to help her out by drying her off and she's insisting upon ending starvation by her own efforts...

She actually jumped up onto her hay rack yesterday and said hi in her sweet little voice, I about cried!

I greatly appreciate the ulcer treatment plan and will store that away. I still wonder if it's a possibility.

No one is head butting her, she was previously in with her bucklings, they've been taken away a few weeks ago and now she's in with her 3 year old daughter. BUT a slow internal bleed has crossed my mind.

My local vet is out (like tapped out) I think he'd come draw blood if I told him specifically what for.
The vet I use for horses is 2 hrs away and is equine only though has seen her once (she hopped a ride on the horse trailer to have a skin scraping) so that is who I've thought about asking to do a ultra sound ? (very unsure if they would) my next option is to take her to MSU 3+ hours away and 6 hours of car rides in her state, exam time + the subsequent ridiculously high vet bill from them has kept me home.

I will call and see about an ultrasound today now that I feel like I have enough goat left to make the ride. I can still see a "cramp line" in her rumen that has been there these 3 weeks, still there despite her eating and feeling a little better.

I still have no idea other than on deaths door anemia we're dealing with, why she's so anemic, why she had a temp or why her belly looks crampy.

Oh! She's bringing up cud normally again, NOT looking like she's going to throw up.

I have never treated her with Ivermec plus or Valbazen so I think I will do that now that she's swinging upwards. Otherwise she's neg for worms and mites and has been for at least a year.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

That sounds like small improvements! Great job.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

yes!!!! great to hear that she is doing a little better


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Keep working on the rumen. Glad she is better.


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## Karen Kuntz (Apr 25, 2018)

So happy to hear that she has improved!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh that is wonderful! I was so worried you were going to post bad news when I kept seeing no update! This girl has a fan club!! 
I agree though keep working on that rumen. As far as I know you can not harm her by keeping up with the beer (I had one that got beer for almost a month straight) so if that’s working I would keep it up. Heck even I feel pretty good after a few beers and I don’t have a rumen lol but this really did make my day. I hope she keeps it up for you!!!!!


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

I've looked in to Rumen Bolus but there seems to be various kinds. I think ksalvagno suggested, which ones? 

Continuing a rotating variety of probiotics, B-Complex, oral B-12, Red cell, a rotating variety of water flavor options, occasional Vit E and C and beer soaked beer pulp. 

Good to know on not over doing the beer... I was wondering how long one can give a goat beer, but it really seems to help and I'm scared to do anything different in either direction! Guess I better pick her up another round of Guiness - I don't drink, so standing in the beer aisle selecting goat beer was probably funny to watch. As I hold things up to the light, "is this darker? Or this?!" 
Picking up Pedialite there was a man also grabbing some and he said "for my neighbor" and my husband said "for my goat..." his face was priceless 

Brining in a fecal sample right now just to re check for coccidia and run blood test thoughts by the local vet... 

She's not as hungry today but still seems OK, I wish I could get her to drink more, her marbles are very hard I noticed while grabbing a sample.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

https://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/products/rumen-yeast-caps


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Fecal results, 3 coccidia eggs and 2 barbers pole worm eggs.
I've owned goats since 2012 and think this is the first time coccidia has shown up - at what point do you treat?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Not at 3 eggs.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, that is really low.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Right it is. I was just wondering for future knowledge, when. 
Mine have been neg for a very long time though - guess these ridiculous cold winters are good for helping with something! 

So we've given Redcell for over a week now and barely any color change. A very little bit pinker but still, white.

Her tail however has gotten more bald - is it possible she's anemic from copper deficiency not iron deficiency? 
I just don't know HOW you know. Vet didn't make it sound like a blood test would help. I don't want to stop iron and loose any ground but if it's not iron it's copper then all I'm doing is not allowing her to absorb any copper she gets, by supplementing iron, correct? 

I wish I had a vet to bring her to. 

She still seems "better" & no temp but now refuses to take any water for the first time since this began.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

I'm glad to read this update too @Jessica84 is right she has a fan club
Go girl go!!!!! Praying for good health!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'd stop the red cell and do copper. Have you done selenium?


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

She gets BoSe - I haven't in a few months


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes she can be anemic from lack of copper. Ok so let’s recap on the copper. When did you give it and how much? About how much does she weigh


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Yep. I just remembered I just gave her one. And she actually stole half of one off a shelf a few days later. 

She chewed both though, I read different opinions on if that is an issue? 

She is a Alpine/Pygmy - we're guessing 125# and I have Copasure 4g 
She had 1 Copper given 3 weeks ago. I almost had it down the throat whole but she coughed it up and chewed it. Then she stole and ate half of one I had set out for another goat. 

But she has had daily Redcell for 10 days shortly there after.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

WOW this is just so crazy, I've gotten a couple "we could draw blood but we don't know what good that will do or that we could tell you how to treat her..." Responses in calling vets.

& I think my local vet is like "loose my number..." At this point lol

onder: I would love to have the goat X rayed to make sure there's not like, sand or something stuck in there, a blood cell count seems handy too. No one seems to want to see her nor do they have a clue what to say about her symptoms.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Keep calling around. Tell them what you are wanting. Vets can be so frustrating but I don’t see what the big deal is on doing this for you! You MIGHT even be able to call a dog/cat vet and at least get the Xrays done. Tell them you think she ate something and just want to make sure she didn’t or know if she did. That’s cool if they don’t know what to do to help her if they find something but at least that might give YOU the chance to see if you can figure out how to fix her or if it’s a loosing battle and put her down. Ugh I’m so sorry  that’s how the dang vets are around here, it’s like pulling teeth to get help and if they do help are totally clueless


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I would call this lab and talk to them and see if they can help you with the blood or send you in the right direction. If they are UC Davis our here they are going to balk about not going threw a vet but just tell them they are refusing to help you and you really need to get it done


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

You might need the link  https://animalhealth.msu.edu


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Right! We are very lucky to have a good vet when it comes to standard goat issues like pulling kids, and a vet we can haul horses to, but the local vet is limited in what they can do. Come to think of it I don't even think he has means to X-ray. (Hence calling around)
I'm not one of those people that strings an animal along, if they're suffering they will be put down. If they're sick and need some help, I'm willing to try to save the animal. This goat has been riding the fence for three weeks, but she's definitely not "suffering" though she is not "well".

Wow thanks for looking! MSU is about 3 hours from me, I've called and talked to them before. They'd really like the animal to be brought in. And I'm just not sure if a 6 hour car ride would do her any favors. Although she's been pretty perky for the past few days now.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Ok blood draw scheduled for Monday. 

Red/white blood count, yes, but I get differing opinions in searching online, if a blood panel would help discern deficiencies or not. Thoughts?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I’m going to guess and say maybe it depends on the mineral that you are wanting to know about. I know though that I have taken goats in to get necropsies and they have not done anything with the blood it was all a liver biopsy. I can’t remember what all minerals was tested but I know copper was and selenium was not. No iron but in humans they test the blood. A semi “friend” I have has to get her blood tested every X months and usually has to go back to get iron (I’m not exactly sure what gets done she just posts that she has to test her blood and then posts she has to go get iron)


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Ask them to draw a liver panel. I had a goat in liver failure. She was not as anemic as yours, but was still anemic with no worm count. She then got mites very badly because her immunity was so down. I got milk thistle from an herbalist and gave it to her every day. She recovered.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Really good advice by all.

She sounds like she had enough copper for now. Of course it is too soon to tell the effects from it. 
Usually I wait 4 months after giving it, then recheck if tailhead hair has grown back or other signs are corrected. 
If not, at that time, I will give another.

You do not want to over load her with copper. As it is slow absorbing. 
If she chewed it, she will still get some benefit from it. 
It is best to get the whole thing intact down her but, sometimes I know it is hard to do. 

Something serious may be happening to her as indicated above.


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## Karen Kuntz (Apr 25, 2018)

You may want to read this-CAPRINE DIAGNOSTIC PLANS/PANELS from Cornell university, they talk about what blood test/panels to order for all different issues including fever of unkown origin.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Karen Kuntz said:


> You may want to read this-CAPRINE DIAGNOSTIC PLANS/PANELS from Cornell university, they talk about what blood test/panels to order for all different issues including fever of unkown origin.


I will Thankyou!!!


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

loggyacreslivestock said:


> Ask them to draw a liver panel. I had a goat in liver failure. She was not as anemic as yours, but was still anemic with no worm count. She then got mites very badly because her immunity was so down. I got milk thistle from an herbalist and gave it to her every day. She recovered.


By this you mean a blood draw, liver panel? I cannot find anyone to do a biopsy - that's interesting.

I'm wondering about an ulcer yet. She eats hay well now, but will not take much else! She still isn't interesting in drinking much, she does the tounge out the side thing to food like carrots and water etc, like she wants it but then goes and presses her head against a wall instead. Then eats hay.
She's kind of changed her symptoms and game as we go.


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

That last part, like she wants the food and presses her head on a wall, sounds a little like polio starting. Are you giving her B complex? If not, I would give her a big injected dose and see if it helps.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Yes- She has been getting B complex. 

I'll see if I can grab some videos of her various "personalitys" right now.

One minute she's happily trucking around my yard eating leaves and the next she'll stop and "shiver" and look real sleepy. It's been a lot of really different things. Sometimes she will drink like crazy, the past two days not much. Sometimes she's up on her hay rack chatting, sometimes she's laying down with her head curled back and doesn't want to get up. Sometimes she chows, sometimes she presses her head against a wall and says no. Some days she chooses to be outside all day, some she hasn't left her stall at all. Sometimes she looks almost normal, others she looks more like she'd rather throw up. She'll have a day with normal cud, then a day that it looks hard to bring up. She wants to eat something different almost every day. 

That's why it seems to me to be stomach related, it's like depending on what's in there and how it's sitting, she feels up or down. I could be completely wrong.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

May or may not be ulcers, really hard to say. Treating for them is one way to see.

Or getting ultrasound or xray to see what may be going on.

I wish I could tell you more, this is a tough case.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Maureen said:


> By this you mean a blood draw, liver panel? I cannot find anyone to do a biopsy - that's interesting.
> 
> I'm wondering about an ulcer yet. She eats hay well now, but will not take much else! She still isn't interesting in drinking much, she does the tounge out the side thing to food like carrots and water etc, like she wants it but then goes and presses her head against a wall instead. Then eats hay.
> She's kind of changed her symptoms and game as we go.


Yes, when they draw blood, ask them to draw liver functions.


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Googled Listeria and Polio, watched some videos.
Unless they can have it about 100 times less dramatic and intermittently be fine then I don't think it's either of those. She doesn't stumble and nothing seems invulentry ever, no whining, no hollaring.



toth boer goats said:


> May or may not be ulcers, really hard to say. Treating for them is one way to see.
> Or getting ultrasound or xray to see what may be going on.
> I wish I could tell you more, this is a tough case.


I really appreciate all of your advice! I wish we could get an X-ray/ultrasound! I'm trying to find someone closer with the equiptment that will see a goat.
Ordering the gastroguard and such to try - I usually have at least a tube on hand to start horses on but of course at this time I appear not to.

She's had so many different symptoms at this point I don't even know what to tell a vet.
The biggest thing I see now is she'll eat or drink, less enthusiastic than a normal goat but well enough, then looks like she feels poorly and stops. That and of course she's still anemic.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Ulcers can cause bleed, depending on severity.
Hope she will improve with treatment.

If you go to a vet, just printing out the highlight symptoms and what was done so far may help the vet determine something I hope.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

has anything changed? hope all is well


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## Maureen (Jul 6, 2012)

Sadly, no...
She remained much the same. We ultimately made the decision that she cannot live on banamine and round the clock maintence forever, it has been eight + weeks with no knowledge of how to help and no real improvement, though she was still hanging in there we put her down shortly after blood work  anyone I've been able to talk to has felt that there is something such as a tumor in the stomach area and no one seemed to hold out much hope for improvement at this point. 
We are still awaiting the results of the blood work.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I am so sorry that you had to put her down. As the ladies on here say, (((hugs))) . That was a tough fight.
My heartfelt sympathy.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry. You worked really hard to save her.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How sad, I am very sorry.


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## Karen Kuntz (Apr 25, 2018)

I am so very sorry, you did everything you could for her.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

Oh dear I’m sorry You certainly tried very hard to get her healthy.


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