# Help! Goats dying!



## 4hmama (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm at my wits end! I have lost 2 (soon to be 3) goats in the past 3 months. ANYONE have any ideas about what is going on...especially since goat vet help is non-existant in my area! 
History:
All animals tested for CAE, CL and Johnes disease and tested negative. (all animals on property tested neg.)
Feeding the same hay and food
Buck and does lived in different pens, but with other same sex animals
Dead animals all between 4-6 years old
Both does I got as adults.
Two came from the same farm and have bloodlines in common, but came here at different times.
All had diarrhea and weight loss
All had weakness and trouble getting up (at the end)
No seizures
Gave all pen. procaine and thiamine.
All UTD on worming and cocci meds
All UTD on vaccinations
One doe had miscarriage a week or so before she died...about 2 months along
Gave all deceased animals copper bolus last spring...
All had loose minerals and baking soda available.
Buck had not been used for breeding but a few times this winter...
No 'revolving door'...don't bring animals in, don't go to shows, don't get auction animals...
Does kidded in May and June...bred back in November/December. Stopped milking in Sept.
Haven't used fertilizer or chemicals of any kind
Chickens have access to same pasture

Our weather has been crazy...one day it's short sleeve weather and the next it is 20 or below. Hasn't snowed much, and lots of mud. Bucks kept in large calf hutch with pine bedding and hay. Does kept in small barn with pine bedding and hay. All other animals have good hair coats, are at good weights, eating/drinking, no diarrhea...but have access to the same things the sick ones did. 

Cocci? Listeria? Polio? Toxcicity? Coincidence? 

I have wondered if the one doe died because she may have retained something during her miscarriage...but what about the other 2? 

ANY ideas? There are no vets in our area that deal with goats, and no one to do a necropsy at this point... Please share your thoughts...


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## JessaLynn (Aug 30, 2009)

Sorry to hear your going threw this.First comes to mind..cocci..next worms.I know you said they are UTD but do you deworm them frequently..might of built up a resistence.What did you deworm them with? Have you done a fecal? Do they have a temp?


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

What are their temps? Any other signs of anything? coughing, sneezing, snot, circling, drool? 
You say they are up to date on worming. Have you had a fecal check done? What wormer didi you last use when? 
Do they have any external parasites? 
I am sure you have checked the feed both grain and hay. 
How are the hoofs?

I would not think Polio in these adult goats but you never know. Listeriosis has other signs you haven't mentioned. 
*Cocci would be a big possibility. 
Toxcicity from what?
Coicencidence.. maybe.
How long have you owned these goats? 
Did you do the testing for CAE, CL & Johnes yourself? How long after they were at your farm. 
Did the buck that is sick or died breed either of the does or is there no connection between him and the does?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Becky...I am so very sorry you are dealing with this :hug: 

I have given you my thoughts on what may be happening and it's awful that you don't have a reliable vet to help.

You did mention to me with the first loss that temps have been below normal once they are down, the temp going down means that the system is shutting down...I don't believe that this is either polio or listeria due to the lack of neurologic symptoms...meningeal worm will cause weakness in the rear but I'm not sure of the other symptoms.
Toxicity is something that I've told you to consider....some goats are more sensitive to low toxic plants than others would be.

Cocci is something to consider...even in adults it will cause diarrhea and weight loss, check their membranes too....even if they are pink there are other types of worms that can overload the system without causing anemia, this crazy weather doesn't help either...it's not been staying cold enough to freeze deep enough to kill off anything bad.


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## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

First thing that comes to my mind is liver fluke worms.

My goats went through liver fluke this year and the symptoms were similar to what you described. They all got diarrhea, lost weight, were UTD on everything and had minerals available. At the end, they were weak, and had trouble getting up. 

Your weather sounds like the key, if it is liver fluke. Liver flukes like cool temps, mud, puddles and can survive a long time without a host. 

The goats that I lost were living with chickens, a cow, and their healthy pasture mates. The older does I lost (one 4 and one 5 years old) had kidded within the last month or two, and their immunities were down. The others I lost were kids. Too young yet to be able to resist the worms.

I treated my goats with valbazen and it cleared up. I had tried other dewormers (both herbal and chemical) but the valbazen was the only thing that cleared it up.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Becky... I know you have alot of your does bred but going with what Caitlyn said about Liver Flukes, you do risk losing pregnancies if you start treatment ASAP with the Valbazen, in this case however....I think I'd be more concerned with having more come down sick and die without treatment.


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## 4hmama (Jan 9, 2009)

I don't deworm frequently...and when I do, I alternate between Safeguard (x 3 days) and Ivermectin. I use Dimethox 40% for cocci. Last time I wormed was October...before breeding began, after babies were weaned. No temp...sub-temps. No coughing, sneezing, drool, circling. When they go down, they are unable to bear their own weight and stand. Don't know if it is physical or neurological. They gaze some, but no spastic eye movements, and the gaze isn't constant.... Hooves are due to be trimmed, but not too bad. Hay and grain is the same that the other goats eat...we have community hay feeders. Bucks get very little grain because of my fear of crystals. I have owned one doe for 2 years, the other for 3 years, and the buck since he was little. I did the testing in May 10'. The most recent doe had been there about 6 months. Have had lice this winter, and have treated for it with Sevin dust and DE...
Membranes are not as pink as they should be...


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## 4hmama (Jan 9, 2009)

I've tried to find Levasol, but even the local dog vet can't find it. Where can I find Valbazen, and is there another alternative with preggo goats? I do have some bred, but not all...


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Sounds like Cocci, which can happen at any age. Also sounds like a worm load, try Valbazen first since it's safer then Levasol, but neither are safe for pregnant animals. fyi


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

What stage of the pregnancy are they? Valbazen is supposedly worst in the first month or two. I got Valbazen from Jeffers.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Ivomec PLUS is also one used for Liver Flukes.... and if any seem to be anemic, I would also get them on an Iron supplement.


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2012)

Unless you have snails in your pasture you don't have liver flukes. Sounds more like Salmonella. Also I don't know a producer that has any real luck with Safe Guard. I would re-worm with Ivermec at the rate of 1cc per 25 lbs. for the worms. Also give them 1 cc Penicillin per 25 lbs for the possible Salmonella and stomach damage from the worm, the next day give 10cc probiotic. 4 Days later another shot of Pen same rate. They are not going to abort from the wormer or Penicillin. Have you introduced anything containing Urea?
I would lean toward giving more wormer than is needed VS not enough. The cost difference is minimal and the results more effective.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Valbazen can cause deformity and abortion at any stage of pregnancy and should only be used in pregnant does as a last resort to save the doe. 

Ivomec Plus has not shown to be safe in pregnant animals either, but is there is less chance it will cause abortion and/or deformity of teh kids.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

RunAround said:


> Valbazen can cause deformity and abortion at any stage of pregnancy and should only be used in pregnant does as a last resort to save the doe.
> 
> Ivomec Plus has not shown to be safe in pregnant animals either, but is there is less chance it will cause abortion and/or deformity of teh kids.


Good to know.


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## Springbett Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

One of the gals here on the forum had a lot of trouble with goats dying and it turned out to be white muscle disease. Do your goats get enough Selenium? Just a thought.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

Ivomec plus can be used after 100 days bred. Anything with a flukecide in it (Valbazen, Ivomec plus) should not be used in the first 100 days of pregnancy. I've wormed does with Valbazen when they were 4 months preg with no ill effects.

My vet told me that when a doe has a heavy worm load they will often end up with high levels of coccidia. All goats have some coccidia in their stomachs, but not at a dangerous or bothersome level. When their immune system is down due to a heavy load of worms the coccidia can and often will act up. I think a fecal would be a good idea on all of your goats to determine what you are dealing with and what wormer needs to be used.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Some people are fine with valbazen, but I wouldn't risk it. I've heard of too many people having does abort from it.


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

Dectomax is also safe for pregnant does. Not sure what all it takes care of thougg


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## 4hmama (Jan 9, 2009)

I give BO-SE before kidding in the spring, and thought of WMD, so I dosed everyone in Nov.

Buck hasn't died...yet. Figure I didn't have anything to lose, so I gave him a large dose of pen/proc IM, Dimethox 40% orally, and gave warm water by mouth. I also have him in a building under a heat lamp with hay packed around him. I gave approx. 150cc sub-Q warm lactated ringers and figured since the Dimethox would screw up his already screwed up stomach, I got him to eat about 1 cup of oats mixed with 6 oz. of peach yogurt (with live cultures). He ate this willingly. Still can't stand.

None of my other goats are showing signs of anything (at this point)...they are all at a good weight, no diarrhea, eating well, drinking well, good hair coat... Right now it's just the buck that seems to be ill.


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## JessaLynn (Aug 30, 2009)

wow..praying all goes ok.Sorry I don't have any advice but your doing all you can it sounds like.


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

If possible, you may want to consider running him up to New Bolton (should be under 2 hours for you) if at least to try and stop this before it happens to another goat. If they can figure out what's wrong with him, maybe you can get a treatment plan for everyone.

Or even talk to them over the phone, they were great over the phone with me. 610 444 5800


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Didn't see if you responded to the buck interacting with either of these does at all or if he has not ever been with them. I was wondering if possibly Clymidia.


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## 4hmama (Jan 9, 2009)

Buck was exposed to one doe in Oct., but not the other. He was also exposed to a few other does in Nov., but they don't seem to be having any trouble. Another buck was exposed to the other dead doe...he is fine.


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## iddybit acres (Feb 18, 2011)

So sorry to hear of this .... between 6 farm's including mine we have lost 12 goat's ranging from 1-8+. I did everything (no good goat vet around here either) and treated for everything and nothing seemed to work. I finally got some help from MSU and determined it was white muscle disease!! I have been pumping the vitamin's and mineral's into them!! Flower my latest victim is the only one that has survived and she fell over eating her hay and couldn't get up!! She had previously been treated with pen-g and wormed and still fell i'll. It's now been just over 2 week's and she was running yesterday and climbed up the stair's to come in my back door!! Come to find out were in a selenium def. area and the mineral's i had were goat/ sheep and weren't enough!! Sending good thought's your way!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Sideplaner said:


> Unless you have snails in your pasture you don't have liver flukes.


 This is not true. The fluke larvae come out of the snail or slug and climb up grass to wait for a host. They can be in your hay waiting to be eaten.

With hay being shipped every which way this year due to the weather, they are even getting liver fluke disease in Texas.

I used Ivermec Plus in pregnent does last year. All were 100 days bred. They had no trouble and all kidded on time with healthy babies.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

goathiker said:


> Sideplaner said:
> 
> 
> > Unless you have snails in your pasture you don't have liver flukes.
> ...


I wondered about liver flukes, and how to treat them. How are they even detected? Just curious, as I don't have time to look it up right now. I've heard a lot of people in the area really like Ivermec plus but I can never find it locally  The feed stores are like huh? what's that LOL We currently use Ivermec, and so far the only parasite we've had issues with have been strongyles.


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## K-Ro (Oct 14, 2007)

How long is the illness before death?

Is it severe diarrhea, watery, green, foamy? etc.

Have you had a necropsy done on one of the deceased, that might help a lot.

I would definetly advise getting a fecal done, to see if you are fighting worms and what kind.

It took us two years to find out what was hitting us. Our vet insisted it was Senna poisoning. Well it turned out to be Enterotoxemia which has the same basic symptoms as Senna poisoning.


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## 4hmama (Jan 9, 2009)

Well, Hank is gone too. He died last night, after intensive care for 3 days. He did have severe diarrhea with this, but was eating and drinking at first. Not green or foamy...just squirts. Antibiotics, Dimethox, yogurt, sub-q fluids, vit. B complex, Be-Se, oats, spruce cuttings and electrolytes...He never recovered.

On the bright side...none of the other goats seem to have any problems at the moment. I gave everyone a dose of Bo-Se gel and will be doing random fecals tomorrow. I'm adding DE to all of the grain, and getting away from textured feed...I'm planning on going to pellets. I hesitate using wormer at the moment, because I do have several girls that are in their first few months of pregnancy. 

All I can do is be diligent and keep trying to stay on top of whatever it is that is going on here. At some point, I'll probably be looking for another buck, but I don't want anything until I'm sure that we have things here under control again.

I have read all of your responses, and thank each and every one of you that shared your opinions and words of wisdom.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

:hug: So sorry to hear of your guy passing. 
Hopefully he is the last and everyone else stays nice and healthy. 



Hoosier the horse equilivent of Ivermectin Plus (which is liquid injectable for cattle/swine) that I have used is called Zimectrin Gold.


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

Sorry you lost him and the others. Hope thats the end of it for you. Although its probably hard not knowing what happened.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm so very sorry to hear that you lost him too :hug: 


I pray that your others will continue to be in good health and resist whatever this may be thats causing the illness and death :hug: 


Zimectrin Gold horse paste wormer contains Ivermectin and Praziquantel...the Prazi is effective for tapes and is not the same drug as Clorsulon which is the "plus" part of Ivermectin Plus injectible, if needing to treat for Liver Flukes, the Zimectrin Gold wouldn't be the one to use.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

glad you caught that Liz. I guess the time I went to use it I never looked at the drug in each just took the salesperson word on it. Glad I wasn't trying to treat liverfluke.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

freedomstarfarm said:


> glad you caught that Liz. I guess the time I went to use it I never looked at the drug in each just took the salesperson word on it. Glad I wasn't trying to treat liverfluke.


 :thumbup: 
No problem Logan...since all I've used has been paste wormers when needed, I've done alot of research on the drugs of each one so I know whats available for which type of parasite.


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## K-Ro (Oct 14, 2007)

This is what happened to my goats. Severe diarrhea, which of course leads to severe deydration. The diarrhea literally is water, maybe some mucos in it maybe a little blood. The goat goes down within hours and does not get back up. We only had one or two that had seizures, head thrown back, etc. They are usually dead within 24-48 hours without treatment, most of the time within 12 hours.
This is what our vet thought was Senna poisoning, and then reading up in Goat Medicine and getting advice from someone else it's most likely Enterotoxemia. Even with vaccinations, it can happen. It's known as the 'over eating' disease, but they don't have to over eat, it's any sudden change in diet. We were getting hit right after the first frosts here. Some miscarried some didn't. They wouldn't eat or drink.

Since we figured out what it was I haven't lost one goat. 
I use Scourguard at first. few hours later some pepto, treat with Tetracycaline orally 2x day, start pen G shots 2 times a day to prevent the pnuemonia which will set in. Lactated ringers to prevent dehydration. Banamine to help with pain.

I am not saying this is what was happening with your goats, but if it sound familiar you might give it a try.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so very sorry for your loss....  :hug:


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