# Horns...Yes or No?



## magilacudy (Mar 18, 2009)

I have dis budded all of my kids and we have a few new kids coming in April and I'm debating whether or not to do it any more. The new kids would have to be done next week if that's what I want but I;m debating. So if you could please weigh in on this.
I do have small children around at all times playing with the goats, there are no issues of horns getting caught on fencing.


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## 4kids (Jul 21, 2009)

I love the look of horns but have been poked twice in the thigh with a horn (and left a huge bruise). We also have children (hence 4 kids- the human kind not the goat variety). For this reason we have sold off our horned goats and now have only disbudded ones


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

It depends on the temperment of the animal and als there size...I have both horned and not and I have to say I have never had any problems with them and the little kids.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

are these dairy or meat goats?

for show; most meat goats (boers, kiko, mytonic etc...) are left with horns, Dairy isn't.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I've always had horned goats, never had one be agressive towards me with their horns and there has been kids ariound them as well, with having horned goats it's all a matter of respect for their horns meaning that you are educated as to what could happen with horns. Yes, I too carry bruises but it goes with the territory and being smart enough to not have your face close to theirs while doing the neccesary maintanence with them.Accidental mishaps will happen with any goat, horned or not and if these are your pets the choice is yours as to wether or not to disbud.
I only recently started to consent to disbuds, all registered nigies are disbudded but the pets are optional.

2 of my bucks have horns and yes, bucks are way more destructive with them, seems that they totally enjoy bouncing their brows off of whatever hard object they can find, even in rut my boys haven';t been aggressive with me...just each other.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Do you have dairy goats or meat goats? If you have meat goats, their horns grow straight back and curl around their head, so they don't really pose much of a threat for children. Dairy goat horns grow strait up out of their heads and can be more of a hazard towards you or kids.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I love the horns and my does.... and you can catch them easier to.... :wink: :greengrin:


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## Mully (Jun 23, 2009)

I have all horned goats (12) have had as many as 36 with horns and never any problems. Not too many years ago horns were not usually removed. Shows and designer goats changed all this. I have had a poll with no horns and he got along with the horned goats just fine ......... keep the horns and let the animal live as a goat.


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## nutmegfarm (Dec 23, 2009)

I would also like to know what kind they are. Horns on a dairy goat are a big no-no (I breed and show) everyone's disbudded at my place. Boer and meat varieties I see with horns, but dairy not so much.


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## logansmommy7 (Nov 11, 2009)

I'd love to hear more opinions on this as I debate the disbudding of future kids. The four goats I currently have have been disbudded or are polled...


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

It depends on how much time you spend with your animals. My family and I are out with our goats CONSTANTLY.... for this reason... my goats are disbudded or polled. I hate disbudding so I breed specifically for polled kids. As much as I hate disbudding.... having a horned goat sneak between your legs to get to the bowl quickly during grain time...or cuddle time will keep that disbudding iron hot during kidding season here! LOL Not to mention.... I had NEVER had a stillborn born on this property until I brought in an aggressive (toward other does not people!) horned doe.... I would see her hit my pregnant does and roll them... every goat I saw her hit has had a stillborn. I've lost at LEAST $1,000 this year because of her. Definitely not worth it in my opinion.... not to mention that her quality of life will not be the same.... she will not have a forever home here and I can guarantee I will have a hard time placing her. Just my opinion .... I know the horns or no horns subject is touchy to some folks! LOL ;-)
Not to mention.... I think we took the "natural" out of goats when we took them out of their natural environment and domesticated them.... now that their domesticated I think it's our job as an owner to make sure we keep them as safe as possible.... the reality is goats are mean to each other.... if you have them fenced in where they can't leave... then you should at least be nice enough to remove the bullies biggest weapon.  (Again... just the way I see it... I COMPLETELY understand that others feel differently.)


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

magilicudy...as you can see, there are alot of differing opinions on goats having horns or not. Each breeder/owner is different in the why's and why nots, you do what is best for you and what you feel is best for your goats :hug:


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## jdgray716 (Aug 8, 2008)

Just my thoughts but here goes.

When it comes to de-horning, unless you HAVE to do it for showing etc. I am dead against it. Horns play a very important role for heat control and so on. They are your goats raidiator plain and simple. In areas like Texas I know people that loose goats every year from their goat overheating because of no horns. Polled goats are not as bad but need to be watched as well. And they too have been hosed down at farms I know to keep from over heating.

Yes, I agree. Some people have to for their breed and showing but it is just my opinion that if you do not have to, don't. Just like cropping ears and docking tails. I agree it does need to be done at times but if you don't HAVE to, why do it? Just my thoughts. Like everything though, it is a matter of choice.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I don't like horns and all my kids are disbudded. 

Why? I have found more buyers interested in dehorned than horned, probably 85% at the least wanted disbudded kids. Chances of them getting caught in a fence are reduced. Nigerian dwarfs (not sure what breed you have) must be disbudded for showing. From my experience I have found goats without horns seem to be a lot more submissive and not ramming at the others and being nasty toward the others during feeding time.

Why not? Horns are a natural way for them to keep their body temperature cooler on hot summer days. They make great handles.  Meat breeds can be shown with horns. The horns might help them fend off predators. Disbudding is stressful, although kids recover pretty quick.  

If you're breeding for pets I would recommend disbudding, but the decision is up to you.


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## jdgray716 (Aug 8, 2008)

Here is a very good link.

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/artic ... dding.html


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## bheila (Jan 10, 2009)

The first 4 goats I got had horns....they no longer do because I banded them. I will never buy another goat with horns. The last doe I bought with horns was really aggresive towards the other goats with her horns. Since I banded them she has a totally different attitude....she's on the bottom of the totem pole and my herd is happier because of it.


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## jdgray716 (Aug 8, 2008)

In this case I can understand. When she got there, she had defences and was making her place in the herd. When her defences were taken from her she had no choice but to fall in as last as she had no way to make her defence or stance. Don't get me wrong, I have a few polled and they fall towards the lower end of the totem poll too, but again they have no way to make a stance as horns are a goats one and once defece against ANY thing that stands up to it. In a normal horned herd this would not have been an issue. All goats need a certain amount of aggresiveness for survival. In a horned herd an over aggresive goat should be culled. In this case, as with any goat, some aggresiveness etc should be exspected as a goat needs to find it's place in the pecking order.

Again, in hot climates a polled or disbudded active buck, or doe being persued by an active buck can die of heatstroke and has happened in many herds I know. The same is true when weaning polled bucklings. When put with other polled bucklings you will have a digree of male-on-male activity and in the right climate a polled buckling being persued again and again can drop dead FAST of heatstroke. Just this past summer I spoke to a breeder here in AR that was watering down some of her polled bucks and does. These were black in color and were NOT cooling down at all as they had no radiators to cool them. 

In the end again this is choice but one could also be setting themselves up for future problems and possibly never being able to have a horned goat in a herd as well.


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

I prefer horns. I'm not a fan of modifying animals unless absolutely necessary. I don't declaw my cats, I don't crop or dock my dogs, etc. I do spay/neuter because it is important to helping prevent over population and heads off several possible health issues in the future, but aside from that I prefer to leave my animals as close as possible to how they were born (I don't even trim my pony's whiskers,lol). 

That said, I do not think that any of those things are inherently abusive as some people do. I have had dogs that were docked before I got them and rescued my fair share of declawed cats. my next dog will be a standard poodle and will probably be docked long before I get it since I usually get adult rescues. I am sure I will have goats at one point or another that have no horns. I just won't be doing it to any that are born here.


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## jdgray716 (Aug 8, 2008)

WarPony, I hope I did not come across as this is abusive in my opinion? Truth be told if someone wants them done, I tell them they will have to do it themselves. I am dead against it but that does not mean I am not for the freedom to do as you wish with your animals. Well with the exception for pure meanness. However, I am very fact base oriented and cut right to the chase, not big on beating around the bush much. So that is what you will always get from me. It is never to upset anyone or offend, I just say it like I see it is all.


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## kids-n-peeps (Aug 24, 2009)

This topic keeps coming up  From a personal standpoint, I like the look of horns. My oldest doe does like to push on the fence with her horns, but it is no more destructive then the body rubbing all of my goats do on the fence when they are blowing their winter coats. My husband absolutely detests disbudding as he has seen internal images of "disbudding gone wrong." Since seeing those, disbudding makes him cringe (even though these were worst case scenarios!) and he says we will certainly never do it ourselves as he feels it should really be left in very experienced hands. Our ND buck is our only disbudded goat and I will say that this past summer, we frequently saw him panting, just seeming hot. Of course the bozo had shade and was standing in the full sun, so maybe he's just not the brightest lightbulb in the box . I did cool him down with water a few times. I've never had to do that with our does - 3 horned, 2 polled. 

Keeping a mixed herd with some hornless and some not has been interesting. "Pecking order" in my group has ended up being totally age-determined and not horn-related (at this point). However, my oldest doe is horned and when she is ornery, she will chase the others and occassionally ram them. One time she went after our young buck very aggressively and it made me realize that she is actually pretty well-behaved with the does.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

One other thing ....that they can do with horns... is scratch that terrible itch... Aww..... HeHe..  


But it is.... personal preference and the decision of each breeder and the circumstances..... :wink: :greengrin:


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## magilacudy (Mar 18, 2009)

Mine are pygmy. We spent alot of time with them. We had one when we were kids that you could not touch her horns. She would come up to be petted and no lie she would dare you to touch her horns to give her reason to butt you.
she was so sneaky she would tilt her head very slowly waiting for your hand to brush them and than BANG you got it.
I really hate the screaming of a kid when its being done. It really makes me feel sick. Thats one of the reason I was thinking of not doing it anymore, and for the fact that I do like the look of thier horns. I just really worry about someone getting hurt. My kids and them hurting each other. Mine can play pretty rough as it is smacking into eachother, I think the horns would make it worse. As much as I hate doing it I believe I will stick with it.


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

jdgray716 said:


> In this case I can understand. When she got there, she had defences and was making her place in the herd. When her defences were taken from her she had no choice but to fall in as last as she had no way to make her defence or stance. Don't get me wrong, I have a few polled and they fall towards the lower end of the totem poll too, but again they have no way to make a stance as horns are a goats one and once defece against ANY thing that stands up to it. In a normal horned herd this would not have been an issue. All goats need a certain amount of aggresiveness for survival. In a horned herd an over aggresive goat should be culled. In this case, as with any goat, some aggresiveness etc should be exspected as a goat needs to find it's place in the pecking order.
> 
> Again, in hot climates a polled or disbudded active buck, or doe being persued by an active buck can die of heatstroke and has happened in many herds I know. The same is true when weaning polled bucklings. When put with other polled bucklings you will have a digree of male-on-male activity and in the right climate a polled buckling being persued again and again can drop dead FAST of heatstroke. Just this past summer I spoke to a breeder here in AR that was watering down some of her polled bucks and does. These were black in color and were NOT cooling down at all as they had no radiators to cool them.
> 
> In the end again this is choice but one could also be setting themselves up for future problems and possibly never being able to have a horned goat in a herd as well.


Don't know how hot it gets your way.... but most of my herd is polled or disbudded... I have 3 that still have horns. It averages around 112-113 here in June-August and my horned goats don't ever act anymore pleased about the heat then my polled or disbudded does. I think it's just the individual goat, genetics, hair type and the amount of shelter and care they receive during extreme heat.


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

magilacudy said:


> Mine are pygmy. We spent alot of time with them. We had one when we were kids that you could not touch her horns. She would come up to be petted and no lie she would dare you to touch her horns to give her reason to butt you.
> she was so sneaky she would tilt her head very slowly waiting for your hand to brush them and than BANG you got it.
> I really hate the screaming of a kid when its being done. It really makes me feel sick. Thats one of the reason I was thinking of not doing it anymore, and for the fact that I do like the look of thier horns. I just really worry about someone getting hurt. My kids and them hurting each other. Mine can play pretty rough as it is smacking into eachother, I think the horns would make it worse. As much as I hate doing it I believe I will stick with it.


I agree with you on that... the screaming is terrible... but just think it is a brief 20 seconds.... a goat that has just been gutted by their herdmates horns suffers much more. ( I've seen it happen... just AWFUL!!! 4 goats on 20 acres... no reason for it except a bad attitude from the herdqueen)


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## jdgray716 (Aug 8, 2008)

magilacudy said:


> Mine are pygmy. We spent alot of time with them. We had one when we were kids that you could not touch her horns. She would come up to be petted and no lie she would dare you to touch her horns to give her reason to butt you.
> she was so sneaky she would tilt her head very slowly waiting for your hand to brush them and than BANG you got it.
> I really hate the screaming of a kid when its being done. It really makes me feel sick. Thats one of the reason I was thinking of not doing it anymore, and for the fact that I do like the look of thier horns. I just really worry about someone getting hurt. My kids and them hurting each other. Mine can play pretty rough as it is smacking into eachother, I think the horns would make it worse. As much as I hate doing it I believe I will stick with it.


Sounds like she was not the most kind of goats and perhaps not the best for kids but whenever you touch a goats horns it is considered a challenge. HEHE :wink:

Jess, it sounds like you are very lucky. I too have never had an issue but then again I have few that are polled. In fact I think only one. However, a HUGE breeder for this state and TX are very close to me and have both had to cool down goats and one very large breeder losses goats to the heat in TX about every year. I promise you the genetics and coats etc are made for that state as they orriginated there. I also promise you these are two of the largest and most sucssful herds in the country so it is not lack of care, knowledge, for shelter etc. It is a matter of truth. Goat specialists all over the US and world will tell you a goat with no horns has not defence. A goat with no horns has no natural way to cool themselves. Studies and genetic make up of any goat tells us horns serve these two purposes. Same as tails and wiskers on a cat have purpose. A trunk on an elephant, and so on. God put it there for a reason and a purpose.

Now as for natural polled genes I believe it to be very simalar to the blue eyed gene, a mutation carried down over the years in certain lines. Example, blue eyed genetics, like in humans, the OCA2 gene is mutated. This turns off the ability to create brown eyes if the mutation is carried. The same would make since on the mutation turning off the ablility to grow horns.


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## jdgray716 (Aug 8, 2008)

myfainters said:


> magilacudy said:
> 
> 
> > Mine are pygmy. We spent alot of time with them. We had one when we were kids that you could not touch her horns. She would come up to be petted and no lie she would dare you to touch her horns to give her reason to butt you.
> ...


Jess, don't take this wrong, I respect you and then some. I am simply making a point.

How many here have had a number of horses in their life? If the above were true on the pain of the life time of a goat and horns, why are we not cutting the legs over every horse? They kick something awful, I know they have broken many of my bones with a single kick and I have a cousin with a reconstructed face due to a horse kick. Why do we not pull their teeth every time they nip all in the name of the pecking order? Elephants, we should pull every tusk off, the damage they can do is incredible. The list goes on. They are built for this. All species have a method of a pecking order. All have a true set up for survival of the fittest. Thus keeping the strongest genes alive. Now does this mean if I have a goat get picked on I don't try to change the situation, no. But if I have a goat that can not be anywhere in my herd doe to weakness or aggressiveness alike, it is a goat I need to place because the natural way of things are getting disrupted in one way or another in my herd. Who knows, that goat might be perfect for someone else but I do not modify a whole herd for one goat or change the genetic make up for my own reasons. Truth be told in these cases it is time to move the animal along.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

We all have good reason to keep horned goats or not....with me, I personally prefer the look of a horned goat and yes, I do deal with pecking order issues, I even go as far as putting flashy duct tape on horns so there is no chance of serious injury while the order is being worked out....this is because I do know what can happen if a goat doesn't back off. It's their nature.

Magilicudy, you obviously have had experience with both horned and bald,if the disbudding itself bothers you, you have the option of having someone else do it or just leaving them grow and using the management required to keep horned goats.

Once again, we all have different opinions on the matter and we all have the right to voice that opinion, but we also need to realize that not everyone will agree on the matter, the only one who has the choice of weighing pro's and con's is the owner of the herd.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with Liz ..in every way..... :wink: 

Please remember ...not everyone has the same opinions on horns....we cannot scare someone into there decisions.....not everyone has bad experiences with horns while others do.. our choices can depend on...children ...aggression....and preference... :wink: :hug:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

JD...I know you're trying to make a valid point, and I already understand you're point of view and now it's just up to the op to decide their take on disbudding and really, it doesn't matter to me which you prefer dibudded or not. I totally get your take on this subject, but comparing disbudding to cutting the legs off horses is a "little" extreme, isn't it? It's no worse than castrating or banding a young buckling. Do you do this? Because this is just as "unnatural" as disbudding. Each has a purpose to help the goat, not hurt it. Everyone's opinion is valued here and I think you and Jess have both made good opinions on this topic.


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## jdgray716 (Aug 8, 2008)

Oh I agree. Again, I am totally into free choice. But I also find some things good for debate and at times a different view to logic can help. I was just showing how or what makes me think the way I do and put a different light on it. I do it with family and friends all day long you all are apart of my goat family. I was hoping it was not coming off wrong but it is so hard to put emotion with keys. Plus I do cut right to the chase and that comes out wrong in writing verses verbal or facial gestures. Again I want to point out I am just bring up a point of view from my standpoint. Please no one take it wrong, I am harmless. LOL If it wasn't for my grammer etc, I could have made a good lawyer. LOL


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## bheila (Jan 10, 2009)

Kylee, you took the words right out of my mouth. I was thinking the exact same things. 
I hate that when the question; Horns or no horns? is asked, it usually always turns into a debate...no matter what forum your on.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ok lets not get carried away with the correlations for disbudding (side note this blue eyed girl doesnt like being told she is a mutation )

some of us don't have the CHOICE not to disbud if we want to enjoy part of our goat passion -- SHOWING 

my dad wont let any horned goats on the property who are aggressive due to liability reasons and the safety risk just to my own siblings (well that was mostly when they were young). Anyway I like them both ways... but I dislike having to work around the horns on goats who do have horns - yes I have owned horned animals - anyone who owns horned animals will say that getting caught in the leg or bruised or jabbed just comes with the territory and you learn to work around them, "respect the horns" they say. I for one enjoy the fact that I just don't have to deal with it since I have polled and disbudded currently.

*For this topic and others:*
DEBATING IS NOT AN OPTION! stating your opinion and your reasoning is ok. Leave it at that. if someone asks you for more information on your practices or questions you on why you do something a specific way of course you can respond, thats how the forum works. We don't debate here on TGS though.


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

jdgray716 said:


> WarPony, I hope I did not come across as this is abusive in my opinion?


I didn't think so but because i am doing SOOO much research i have just recently seen some very VERY strong opinions about the subject, lol. And because of my many years with other animals I have seen very strong opinions about modification of other species like tail docking which consider anyone who docks pups or even owns a docked dog to be abusive. I just wanted it clear that while I am against it for me it is not because I feel like some folks do... just that i personally don't like it for MY animals.


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## 4hmama (Jan 9, 2009)

My opinions are based on dairy breeds of goats...but I don't like horns for safety issues.... I had a friend who had a very friendly, horned nubian and it put a hole in her brood mare as pretty as you please. We have smallish children, and I don't want to take the chance on someone getting hurt. Even a horned goat with the BEST temperment can accidently hurt someone. Plus if you raise dairy goats with the intent to show or sell show quality animals, it isn't a choice...you can't have horns. If you decide NOT to disbud your dairy goat, you may have a harder time finding it a home - if you should ever have to re-home it. God made goats with horns for protection from predators....but now that many breed of goats have been domesticated and no longer have the same threats that the did in the wild, disbudding is an option. I read a post that stated that the author wanted to keep their animals as 'natural' as possible. This is admirable, and something to strive for. However, most 'altering' of animals was done for a purpose at one time or another. Tail docking, and ear cropping (which I am NOT in favor of) did serve a purpose when those breeds were being used for specific jobs. It isn't necessary now because most dogs are simply family pets, and the purpose for altering the animal is no longer vaild. (Example - docking cocker spaniel's tails was done to allow them to hunt more efficiently, and avoid getting tangled up in the underbrush...not too many cocker's hunting nowadays). I guess my point is, that 'altering' has been done for years and usually served a purpose. In dogs it's now done for cosmetic reasons, but there are still saftey issues when dealing with goats that would warrant a second look at disbudding.


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## jdgray716 (Aug 8, 2008)

StaceyRoop said:


> ok lets not get carried away with the correlations for disbudding (side note this blue eyed girl doesnt like being told she is a mutation )
> 
> [/color]


Sorry I had to tell you this. As a blue eyed person myself, beautiful blue eyes at that. HEHE I found it interesting when I learned blue eyed people have one single ansester in common when this mutation took place. That means SOMEWHERE back their we are related. HEHE along with half a million other people. It is neat though.


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