# CMPK oral or inject??



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I didnt want to junk up some ones post with all this so I thought a new thread would be best...Im reading conflicting information on CMPK

the paste is caustic? should not use
Injection is better and cheaper


this is the best answer I found so far...found on Farm and Goat conversation


"CMPK Gel vs. Liquid Oral CMPK 



Now that kidding season is upon us, I would like to share a point brought up by Dr. Ralph Zimmerman DVM during a lecture I attended. We were on the subject of Ketosis and Hypocalcemia and their treatments. Especially the use of CMPK gel in tubes. His point sounded pretty good to me, since I had to go through a ketonic doe 2 years ago. 

The gel in the tube is caustic and burns the inside of the mouth and throat. Main objective in treatment is to get calcium levels back up and the doe eating. With the continued use of the gel, the mouth is burned repeatedly. 

I know the doe I was treating let me know in no uncertain terms that the stuff was terrible! Little did I know how much so until I got some on my mouth by her head slinging and trying her best to spit it out...she would bleat in pain. 

His suggestion was to use the Oral CMPK Liquid. It's usually right beside the gel tubes in the feed stores. I keep mine refrigerated and give it cold. When I did have to give a doe in slow labor some last year, she actually took the syringe and sucked on it!"

I hope this clears it up lol..I know I was sure puzzled...and now I feel like I learned something new :stars:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

So just the gel burns if given orally?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

from what I have read so far...But Im still reading..I read here a few days ago some one said the liquid burns too, which to me makes since, its the saem stuff only diluted..so maybe just does not burn as bad as gel......so Im trying to find that and go from there ...Im thinking injectable would be the best route at this point to be sure.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

so far I see many use the liquid..say the goats hate it and act like your killing them...One person said it does burn and so if she needs to use it she flushes their mouth with water after she gives it to them...also Im reading that Excess calcium can cause cardiac arrest that you should not use CMPK in every case..only when they goat has sub temps 
Several have written they dilute the liquid with gatorade...
Im sure I can keep reading and keep getting different answers lol..But at this point Im going to assume even the liquid burns..and should be used diluted or use injectable..


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## goatgirlzCA (Mar 9, 2011)

I have read the same stuff! I bought the CMPK drench but haven't used it yet. The Nutridrench has calcium in it, plus upping the alfalfa too seems to help some. 

I had to give a doe some medicine last year that was bitter and she acted like I tried to poison her! My husband freaked out that I did something wrong. So I have been hesitant to use any CMPK yet....


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Mixing it with sno cone syrup is supposed help a lot and the sugar won't hurt. 
Actual CMPK injectable is RX (here anyway) you can get injectable MFO at the feed store. The Potassium in the CMPK is suposed to help prevent the heart problems. We don't use it IV anyway which is very dangerous if you don't know exactly what you are doing.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thank you goathiker...I was told by Susan, from Tennesseemeatgoats to never to add sugar which creates a breeding environment for bacteria in the goats gut...lol..(I wanted to add sugar to Sulmet).I respect Susan and her experiance.. As for CMPK, I haven't used it at all..but want to know how best to use it when its needed...what is the difference between CMPK and MFO?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

CMPK Injection contains calcium, potassium, phosphorus and magnesium in a dextrose solution.
MFO is the same thing but is an oral solution.


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## RedGate (Dec 7, 2012)

I'm the weirdo that has tasted calcium drench and MFO solution, it is awful and does burn and tingle. If I give it, I dilute it with gatorade, but I rarely use it- For treatment I truly feel the injectable is the way to go. It's RX here too.


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## BekCaprinekin (Mar 16, 2016)

I found out this after a large run-around with the vet with hypocalcium:

It depends on the type of calcium in the drench or gel. If it's Calcium Chloride or Calcium Citrate, run away. Calcium Carbonate is the only one that doesn't burn, and is made more naturally from sources such as minerals, etc. I switched to Calcium Carbonate for everything and haven't had a problem since.


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## thphantompower (Jun 12, 2015)

Jeffers also sells CMPK Bolus. It looks like it has calcium carbonate in it. Has anyone tried this?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

This thread is like 5 years old... Calcium Carbonate contains lead naturally. Be really sure of your source. 

Since this thread was made there are many more products to use and other ways of doing things to prevent the problems. 

Oh, and properly made Calcium Citrate does not burn, I take it every week...


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## thphantompower (Jun 12, 2015)

Great. Thank you for the information. I see now that someone posted to it today and that is why it showed up as a new post.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

i hope to resurrect this thread. I JUST BOUGHT 2 big tubes of CMPK gel because my doe's labs show she is hypocalcemic (it is calcium chloride). I tasted it, it is HORRID. And now I read it is caustic and burns the mouth. I am going to return it. Years ago I tried giving Goats Prefer Calcium liquid (which is calcium chloride & burns according to the earlier post) to a doe before kidding, and she acted like she was poisoned too. (whoever misnamed THAT product??)
What is the best way now, in 2019, to supplement calcium to a slightly hypocalcemic doe, other than injection?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I used calcium gummies from the pharmacy but I'm not sure it will be enough for your doe. My doe kidded triplets without a problem though. The last couple weeks I also gave her a couple of tums daily. I fed alfalfa hay and pellets too. It might help yours too.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks. It turns out her lab shows calcium is in the "low normal" range, so it's not BAD. I'll try the gummies, you never know if your goat will try something or not. Plus on Replamins now for other minerals.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

My girls love their gummies! I give them the orange flavored vitamin c gummies too. Tums taste good to them as well.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Crossing fingers


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Tums with Calcium.
Goats love them.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Tums has 1000 mg calcium in it, that would be great. But both mamas with triplets turned their nose up at Tums.  A 6-mo. doeling liked it though.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Sometimes you have to offer a new "food" more than once before a goat will try it. Apple slices; one of mine loved them right off the bat, two sniffed, turned and walked away. Next time, one was mighty curious about the food the other was obviously enjoying, tried a slice, liked it. The third couldn't stand the thought of the others having something he didn't, tried a piece and yum. This does not always work though, mine still won't eat animal crackers no matter how many times it's offered. Offer them a few more times before giving up and see if that works. All else fails, crush them up until powdery and drench them.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

NigerianNewbie, that is excellent advice!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Tums are temporary fix.

I use CMPK gel, with injecting, you do not want to give too much, the risk of stopping her heart is huge.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

If her labs are "low normal" she doesn't need CMPK.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> Tums are temporary fix.
> 
> I use CMPK gel, with injecting, you do not want to give too much, the risk of stopping her heart is huge.


I have some CMPK gel for oral use; waiting for the "applicator gun" to arrive. It sure is horrid tasting. What's your best method to get it in the goat?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I first give some baking soda/water drench. 

Straddle over the goat facing her head.
Hold her head slightly up, not too high, more level, yet slightly up and squirt a little bit in, at the back corner of her mouth. 
She will fight and may thrash her head, just try to hold her head level to very slightly up as she does this. So she does not spit it out. Be careful and not to get hurt. 
Give a little at a time, until you give her the whole thing.
Then follow up with water to drench down the gel which just sticks there, so it helps relieve her and has less burn feel. Do 2 to 3 of them, with the huge syringe, do it slowly.

If she begins to cough, stop until she stops. Then continue. You don't want to give it too fast or allow her to inhale some and get it into her lungs. So be careful and patient.

Hope this makes sense.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Thank you Pam. How much baking soda & how much water in the drench? She's about 60 lb.

I have a 300cc tube of CMPK gel, how much to the goat, like 5ml? and should I shoot it in straight from the big tube or... ? probably better to measure it into another syringe I'm thinking. 
On the follow up water, I have a 50cc feeding syringe with the metal tip that goes in their throat. I'm thinking you mean like 50cc of water 2X?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You are welcome.

I get a different syringe and put it into it from the big tube.

For dosage maybe 15 to 30 cc's, once or 2 x a day. Depending on severity.
It is hard to say without seeing the goat in person.
Sometimes giving CMPK 1 x straightens them up. If she gets better there is no need to continue unless she is showing symptoms then as I mentioned, could be 1 to 2 x a day or as needed. 

Feeding alfalfa hay helps calcium levels. 

Baking soda, 3 cc's to the rest water in a 12 cc's syringe. Drench slowly.

On the follow up water, yes, 50cc of water 2X. Do it slowly as well.

Also clean any off around her mouth, with a wet cloth.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Thank you Pam. I've put this all into a document on how to give CMPK orally so I have it, very useful. 

I have confusion now as to whether CMPK is needed by her. Her labs showed "low normal calcium". She has not the symptoms of hypocalcemia of lower appetite, subnormal temp, constipation or decreased rumination. I am making sure she continues to eat alfalfa, which is their primary feed. She has been inclined to a slight fever, eating okay, nursing kids okay. I just don't know that I need to put her through this procedure. 

It was quite hot here yesterday and she had a higher temperature and lethargic, so the vet said to give her Banamine, and she was feeling better within the hour. 
Today it's cooler and she's still doing better, though not normal. 

The other day it seemed her legs were tired/sore in coming up stairs to the upper pen, but that went away. Her symptoms come and go. 

She has had 2 doses of Excede antibiotic for a unidentified infection, due to her higher temps, 104.2-104.9. Her exams 2X in the last week have been good, other than she is much more docile than normal. She's nursing the 5-week-old kids well. Puzzling. I am giving her some Calcium gummies - not positive she's eating them yet, but I think so.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You are welcome.

It doesn't sound like she needs CMPK, no.

Giving alfalfa, is good.

Slight fever? Even if the weather is hot, she should be in the normal range, unless in the direct sun, running prior to taking her temp.

Just giving banamine masks the issue. 
But it is strange, she has already been treated with an antibiotic, yet she is still not well.

Have you rebuilt her rumen?
Probiotics and fortified vit B complex SQ for 4 days.

Check her inner lower eyelid coloring.

Do you have any white tail deer around? Is it her rear legs that seem weak?


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Her temp is back to normal, 103.2. I agree she doesn't need CMPK.
Rebuilding Rumen: She's been getting probiotics almost daily. When she 1st got symptoms we thought she had mild goat polio and she got many Fortified Vit B complex injections. She hasn't had any since 7/5.
Her inner eyelids have been fine.
I started her on Replamins.
Legs, sometimes she just seems generally weak/tired when coming up the goat stairs from one pen to another. Other times not. Sometimes favors her right front leg (I could find nothing wrong with it or hoof). Symptoms come and go.
White tail deer are not native to California.

Currently, her temp is normal but she is still very docile and rather slow. Her normal self is skittish and fast. Yesterday she was laying down in her shed and I could take her temp. with her lying down. This is so unlike her. I describe her as generally depressed, but with good appetite, nursing kids well. Low activity level. The vet has no idea what's wrong with her. One of her ear tips got scraped and is all crusty. I cleaned it yesterday & applied NuStock to it.
On 6/23 she started out with a whole different set of symptoms which led us to think she may have mild goat polio.
On 7/11-13 she was treated with Safeguard for worms found on fecal.
On 7/12 she got 2nd shot of Excede antiobiotic. Her fever spike was 7/15. 
Symptoms have changed now to a low energy, very docile goat with no diagnosis. But at least I don't feel like I'm losing her!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Give fortified vit B complex SQ. 
6 cc's per 100 lbs SQ daily 2 x a day, for a while.
Probiotics 1 x a day.

Give nutradrench as directed on label for goats for a few days, will also help with energy. Don't give too long, as it burns the throat.

Does she have mineral deficiency signs? 

Some here swear by garlic, that may help too. Look up some of the threads on it. 

Her immunity may be down.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> Some here swear by garlic, that may help too. Look up some of the threads on it.


Well it certainly won't hurt.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks Pam. Her coat is good. Her eyelids are good. Is there another sign of mineral deficiency to look for? I've already started her on Replamins.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

laurelsh said:


> Thanks Pam. Her coat is good. Her eyelids are good. Is there another sign of mineral deficiency to look for? I've already started her on Replamins.


Tell-tale tail. Does she have a fishtail or turned down tail? Photo of her tail could help us or you can google and search the forum for reference.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Tail photos! PS: She seems quite normal today so far.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I’m thinking both selenium and copper deficient.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

She got a BoSe shot on 7/6 from Vet, and we're going to repeat on 7/25. She had a copper bolus in May. She is on Replamin now.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

laurelsh said:


> She got a BoSe shot on 7/6 from Vet, and we're going to repeat on 7/25. She had a copper bolus in May. She is on Replamin now.


Then I'd assume it just needs its time to work. She does have loose minerals, correct?


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Yes, probably needs time. Loose minerals are available though not touched much, which is also why I started Replamins.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

laurelsh said:


> What is the best way now, in 2019, to supplement calcium to a slightly hypocalcemic doe, other than injection?


I like to use carrot and celery juice when my goats need a bit of a boost. Juice 50/50 and feed same dose as CMPK.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, if you gave her all that already, she needs time needs to go through her system.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Hi Everyone, I just want to let you know she is pretty much back to normal now. Kids are 7 weeks. Thanks for all your help.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

laurelsh said:


> Hi Everyone, I just want to let you know she is pretty much back to normal now. Kids are 7 weeks. Thanks for all your help.


I am glad! I was watching all the things you were going through. Good work.  Glad you are helping to save the San Clementes.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks Dwarf Dad, John!


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