# Very anemic weak doe in need of help



## ruedyranch (Jan 15, 2011)

I have been trying really hard to listen to what my vet is telling me but I'm quickly losing patience with her. I had three boys with bottle jaw and one of them seemed very weak and had a lot more facial swelling than the other two. Everything I google tells me to give red cell, vit b complex and worm, worm, worm. My vet agreed with the worming part but is telling me I could actually do more damage giving them the vit b injections. Two are doing fine but the smaller one suffers every time I put him back in the pasture. She tried to tell me he was getting reinfested with worms but if I put him back in his stall for a couple of days and give him magic and vit b injections his swelling goes away. I can't get any color back in his eyes though. Now I also have a doe who I pulled off the pasture more than two weeks ago and she is in a stall now with similar problems. I have wormed her and she definitely had edema in her face which now seems gone but even with 10cc doses of red cell for several days in a row I can't get any color back in her. Now she is extremely weak and this problem is getting worse instead of better. She is incredibly thin. When I first put her in the stall she had very cloudy eyes and they would shake. My vet mentioned maybe she had white muscle disease but I am thinking with all the stress to her system it is more likely a thiamine deficiency. My vet thought it could be muscle atrophy since she has been in this stall for a couple of weeks and told me I should put her back outside so she could get some fresh air. I tried that....she tried to step down out of her stall and did a total face plant on the concrete. She had to lay there a minute to catch her breath and I had to help her get back on her feet. I felt terrible for her. I can't carry her, she is at least 100lbs even with the weight loss. She did get to graze in the yard for an hour tonight and visit with her little daughter but that was all she could take. I heard her crying from across the yard and when I got to her she made me take her back into the barn. My husband and I both had to help her get back into her stall. I gave her another dose of red cell and 3cc of vit b complex (the vet said I shouldn't give her more than that) and a 2cc dose of banamine. Please help.....


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

The B vitamin I would use. Extra just gets peed out. 
Banimine I would only use sparingly as needed; it is hard on the liver. 
Red cell I am not too sure how often to use. 

Worming.... What worms do they have? 
What wormer are you using?
What dose on the wormer? 
How often?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Being inside and I assume the hay rack is up so the swelling is going away because they aren't eating with their heads lower than their bodies.

Worming them as you have been is good, keep up the red cell if you can't get the injectible iron and with her eyes seeming to shake and her falling I would get some high doses of Fortified B Complex injected into her asap.....it won't hurt and if she improves then you'll know for sure that her thiamine is low.
I dosed my mini's that weighed 35 and 50lbs with 10cc of Fortified B Complex every 6 hours as well as 1cc per 10lbs of Pen G when I was treating for polio and suspected listeria...both recovered and the med doses saved them. I personally would give her 2 injections of the B Complex, 8cc in each rear leg muscle and see how she does as far as the symptoms she's shown. Sounds like alot BUT with just B comp the dose needs to be high to get enough thiamine in the system.

Barberpole is the cause of bottlejaw...I don't think anyother worm will cause it. The valbezen and ivermectin you've dosed her with should have killed them.
I've not ever used Red Cell so I can't say how much to give but I do think that injecting meds get into the system faster and stay there as opposed to oral dosing that leaves the system quickly due to the high metabolism goats have.


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## ruedyranch (Jan 15, 2011)

Worms are no longer an issue. I had a fecal done and they are gone. I am heading out to give her the vit b injection now. How long before I should see some signs of improvements? I am planning to pick up some B12 from the vet tomorrow. As long as you have an account with them you can pretty much walk through the door and purchase anything RX they carry. How much should I give her of B12? And the little guy I have in the stall next to her? She weighs about 125lbs and he weighs 40.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

if I were you I would give the baby 3cc's vitamin B complex and the older doe 6cc's at a time (might even venture to do this 2x's a day for the first 2-3 days)

That is good that the worms are gone.

I had a doe that was very anemic when I purchased her. It takes quite a while (months) to re-build the red blood cells. It will be several weeks even before you see any "pinking" up in the eyes. I would keep her and the baby together-maybe in an outside pen where they can see the others? I would pump them full of good foods--high protien grain (of course gradually mix this into reg. food), alfalfa and some calf manna (a weight supplement by manna pro-but has lots of "good" stuff in it) make sure they have access to good minerals too.

I would keep them eating good and separated for at least 3 to 4 weeks. Then see how they do turned out. 

Oh--re: the red cell. I did use it w/my doe when she had anemia. I gave 6cc's a day for the first 3 days then every other day for a week then every 2 to 3 days for a month. I would not give the baby red cell--as it is strong stuff. You can use lixitinc (I think my spelling is off) for him--it is a "goat" type vitamin supplement. 

Are you squirting the red cell in her mouth orally? I would do this rather than add it to feed-they don't like it and in my experience will avoid it if possible. 

I hope your babies get better--you are almost there, keep up the good work!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

ruedyranch said:


> Worms are no longer an issue. I had a fecal done and they are gone. I am heading out to give her the vit b injection now. How long before I should see some signs of improvements? I am planning to pick up some B12 from the vet tomorrow. As long as you have an account with them you can pretty much walk through the door and purchase anything RX they carry. How much should I give her of B12? And the little guy I have in the stall next to her? She weighs about 125lbs and he weighs 40.


B1 is Thiamine.... she will need to get a minimum of 2 cc's every 6 hours to try and combat polio, if she is thiamine deficient, the symptoms she's shown with her eyes as well as the stumbling should improve after the initial dose, continue dosing every 6 hours for 24 hours


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I think you've got some great advice already...just wanted to say I hope your doe recovers quickly! :hug:


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

If they are still anemic you can try Poly Vi Sol baby vitamins with Iron. You can buy them from Walmart. They work great and are gentle as is made for babies. You can give 2 droppers twice a day if they are pretty anemic.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree ...great advice ... :thumb: 

prayers... hope she gets better... :hug: ray:


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## ruedyranch (Jan 15, 2011)

Of course when I got to the vets office my vet was there (She is usually out on calls) I also called the local extension office and they also said thiamine. She seemed a little put out that I tried to get a second opinion. I wanted to buy a bottle of B12 and Thiamine but instead she sent me home with three doses of each. I am to give 1/2 cc B12 and 6 cc B1. I did give her 16cc B complex last night but I haven't seen any improvement yet. Does it matter if I give the Thiamine all at once? She gave it to me as a single dose. Also giving her a daily dose of RedCell orally. I wonder if I should change to an injectible instead? Can someone tell me what I should use and a dose? We have a TSC and Fleet Farm nearby. I also managed to get a bottle of BoSe and will give her a dose of that. Keep the advice coming. I need as much as I can get. Anyone who can tell me how they got a goat back from anemia is advice worth listening to. And both goats are in stalls in the barn. The vet from the U told me NOT to let her go outside because she is wasting precious energy that she needs to recover by grazing.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Check the dose on the Thiamine. I think that it is meant to be dosed low but can't find it in my notes right now.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

If the Thiamine is the 200mg/ml it is 2.5cc per 100lbs.

A dose of probiotic paste could benefit her as well with all the different meds she's getting.


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## ruedyranch (Jan 15, 2011)

Maybe I am being too optimistic but it seems she has a bit more "pep" in her tonight. She is still very weak but she is eating and drinking well. Her poor little legs are so wobbly. As I was running around tonight doing chores I could hear her "Bbbbbllllllllaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!" I haven't heard her yell for me like that in a while so it has to be a good sign. I'm a little afraid that after 3 days of these meds she will fall back to her exhausted and weak state. I guess we have to wait and see.


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## LuckytohaveFarm (Feb 22, 2011)

Whenever I see weak muscles I give Vit E. I simply buy the gel caps from the local pharmacy. I prefer the 1000 i.u caps, pinch the end of with my teeth and squeeze it into a 6cc syringe. Animals that are weak, have shuffling gait or have significant flat muscle, rough coat get 6,0000-10,000 iu of Vit E. Those that are down and really bad off get up to 30,000 iu of Vit E. I usually dose once a week for 2-3 weeks depending on their condition. I usually see results in a few days and significant results (healthy hair roots, weight gain and improved muscling, better coordination, etc.) in 3-5 weeks. 

One old ewe I had was down for about 5 days, unable to move or support herself. On a last ditch effort, I gave her 40,000 iu of Vit E. The next day she was up. Within a week, she had completely recovered. 

Vit E is necessary for muscle repair and development. In my herd of 65 milking does plus dry replacement stock, I see a dramatic difference between those getting adequate Vit E supplementation and those that do not. Some does that linear appraised with F,A, or + in the feet category have improved to +, V, or E feet scores simply because of the added supplementation of Vit E. Overall appearance are night and day between the deficient and adequate goats. 

Jillian McIntosh
Luckytohave Farm
Norian Belgians


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## LuckytohaveFarm (Feb 22, 2011)

Below is one medical article regarding worms and their havoc on vitamin/minerals of the goat.

Jillian

http://www.medwelljournals.com/fulltext ... 09.590.594

Journal of Animal and Veterinary Advances
Year: 2009 | Volume: 8 | Issue: 3 | Page No.: 590-594
Some Biochemical Parameters and Vitamins Levels in the Hair Goats Naturaly Mix-Infested with Endo and Ectoparasities (Lice (Linognathus africanus) and Trichostrongylidae sp.)

<SNIP>"It was reported that vitamin E levels decline in goats infected with parasites (Trichostrongylidae sp. + Protostrongylidae sp. + Eimeria sp. + Babesia sp.), while vitamin C, retinol and ?-carotene concentrations were not statistically different between groups (Dede et al., 2002). In addition, a decrease in the concentration of vitamin A in animals infected with parasites has been reported (Das et al., 1996; Hautvast et al., 1998). Deger et al. (2001) found that concentration of vitamin E and ?-carotene in sheep infected with babesiosis were lower than uninfected sheep and concentration of vitamin C and retinol did not show a statistically significant change. In this study, we observed that concentration of retinol was lower (p<0.05) in goats infested with Linognathus africanus and Tricostrongylidae sp. than the control group although there was no statisticaly significant difference in the concentration of vit D3 and tocopherol. These findings indicate that the concentrations of vitamins mentioned above are affected by the types of parasites and the hosts they invade."


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## Willow (Jun 12, 2011)

Thanks for the info. Is it effective to give the vit E gel capsules orally? Should vit E be routine following worming? 

Good luck with your doe. I hope that she continues to improve.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I do see a misconception here. Just because a fecal is clear doesn't mean the worms are gone. It just means that they are not laying eggs.
Liver Fluke can cause all of the things that you are describing. Have you treated with a flukicide to make sure? Liver Flukes can cause serious illness without ever laying an egg. I would use Ivermectin Plus here as it kills more types of worms than Valbanzen.

Good quaility alfalfa contains a lot of iron and can help with the anemia.


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## ruedyranch (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks for the info Jillian. That is really helpful. If I just gave her a BoSe injection, which contains vitamin E, should I still give her the capsules? I dosed her thiamin injections at 2cc three times a day instead of giving her one 6cc injection. I can't believe how alert she is now. There is no sneaking up on her anymore! I gave her Ivomec plus on Monday and will give her one more dose this Monday. I am having another fecal done and will get the results on Thursday where I am attending a clinic to learn how to do my own fecals. I just want to say thanks to all who take the time to give much needed advice and all the kind words. I can't tell you how many times this site and all of you have helped me over the past year. What lifesavers....literally. Daisy and I thank you.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm so happy to hear that Daisy is improving :leap: 

She's very lucky to have you be so determined to get her well....and you are very welcome, that's what TGS is for, helping friends help their critters :hug:


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

I am just seeing this post now... I'm happy to hear Daisy is improving!  

Liver Flukes are the most common cause of Bottle Jaw...in a fecal they are often mistaken for Barber Pole. They are the most difficult to find in a fecal. 

For this reason Ivomec Plus is our "go to" wormer for any parasite issues over here. I'm glad you are using it....your girl should get better soon.  

I would recommend getting a bottle of Ferrodex to keep on hand in case you see bottle jaw or pale eyelids again. It will take care of anemia asap. 

Be sure to use the Ivomec Plus once every 10 days for 30 days to make sure you get all of the remaining worm eggs.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

:grouphug: I am so glad your girl is better! You have worked so hard to get here there!! Congrats for you and congrats for having the intution to know you should not just blindly follow your vets advice! You are an awesome goat mommy!!


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Glad to hear she is doing better.


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