# Breeding Up or Buying the Best



## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

Ok, so this seems to be a fairly controversial topic that I have seen, but I think it should make for a fun discussion. This is all your opinion, no wrong answer. What do you think is better to start off with average/above average animals and breed up or buy the best quality you can afford right from the start? I would like to see your opinion and why, especially from our fellow show breeders. Ready, set...go!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Not a show breeder at all, but... when I first started I was not experienced in judging quality/conformation. To buy the best you can afford from the start, you would have to do a ton of research before buying. If you go by what the breeder tells you, you might think you bought great animals, but find out later, as you learn more, you didn’t...
In my experience a lot of learning happens while doing.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Definitley buy the best you can afford. To me, there is no point in buying and possibly making the breed worse. 
That's pretty much what I'm trying to do and its kinda a pain in the butt, and more expensive in the long run, constantly trying to find goats that will do well for my herd, especially bucks. Buy the best you can and improve the breed from there


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

And just making sure for clarity. In this thread, I'm personally not looking for advice. Already have my (hopefully) foundation does and have reserved a buckling who (should) cross nicely with my does:nod:. Just interested in hearing different opinions and experiences!


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

MadHouse said:


> Not a show breeder at all, but... when I first started I was not experienced in judging quality/conformation. To buy the best you can afford from the start, you would have to do a ton of research before buying. If you go by what the breeder tells you, you might think you bought great animals, but find out later, as you learn more, you didn't...
> In my experience a lot of learning happens while doing.


 Sooo true. And most beginners don't even know where to start and are very reliant on others' opinions until they develop their own eye. Very steep learning curve with breeding goats and finding what works and why!


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Definitely, do your research and start with the best. You may have to save up a little longer, but it definitely pays off in the long run. If you have a goat that is the product of 20 years of breeding, you've just gotten that far ahead in your own breeding program vs starting from scratch. I didn't do my research when I got into registered goats at first, then I did and starting selling until I could afford better quality and develop my own line. Every year, I was able to afford a higher quality goat, but it would have been much easier and saved having to sell some favorites if I had started with better animals. I decided I wasn't going to make that mistake with horses and started with the best I could afford. It's already paid off.


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## AndersonRanch (Oct 18, 2020)

I bred up. When I first started my husband was seasonal and we were adjusting to another baby so I simply did not have the money. Looking back I am REALLY happy I did it this way for a lot of reasons. 1. I learned a lot the hard way. It sucker as it was learning on “cheap” goats and it probably would have broke me if they were expensive goats. 2. It took awhile to get a name. For people to see that I wasn’t all about money and I was a decent person. Every year I did better and better with my stock and I’m still doing better and have a ways to go for perfect. I’m 11 years in now and it was probably about 5 years ago my sales really took off. And 3. Is probably more important to me then others but when I started to dip into a lot better (more expensive) I was having a heck of a time finding good quality that would thrive with my management. I had a few that I ended up having to cull and it was a huge financial loss. If all my goats I had were those few it would have really sucked.
BUT I am NOT a show person. I think for those interested in showing it would be a total different ball game. Lesser quality doesn’t win. You would have to go for the best to fulfill your dreams. And if one isn’t even coming close to winning then It’s not fun or worth it to them and I could see them getting out of goats altogether. If that was the master plan for my goats then I most definitely would have gone for the best of the best. I also would have gotten my name out there faster by attending shows, and my management would have been different.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Our method in the beginning was buying average (and above) does and breeding up. I'm glad we did! We had a limited livestock background and needed to learn the ropes before buying the best we could afford.

We started by buying several 4H quality does and breeding up from there. It has taken almost 8 years, but we've slowly improved our herd by both retaining/purchasing does and increasing the quality of our herd sires.

After our most recent kidding season, the majority of our top quality does are ones that are multiple generations deep into our genetics. By 2021, the majority of our breeders will be our very own does, and it feels so rewarding.

Here's a small example of our quality from 2015 vs 2020.
Top row: Left is a buckling from 2015. Right is a 2nd Gen buckling from 2020.
Bottom row: Left is a doe from 2015. Right is a 3rd Gen doeling from 2020.


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

Morning Star Farm said:


> Definitely, do your research and start with the best. You may have to save up a little longer, but it definitely pays off in the long run. If you have a goat that is the product of 20 years of breeding, you've just gotten that far ahead in your own breeding program vs starting from scratch. I didn't do my research when I got into registered goats at first, then I did and starting selling until I could afford better quality and develop my own line. Every year, I was able to afford a higher quality goat, but it would have been much easier and saved having to sell some favorites if I had started with better animals. I decided I wasn't going to make that mistake with horses and started with the best I could afford. It's already paid off.


 This seems to be very common where people sort of fall into goats and then start with what they already have vs. buying all new stock. Not a bad thing at all! I think it definitely teaches people HOW to breed and to appreciate all kinds of stock, not just the fancy show does.


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Our method in the beginning was buying average (and above) does and breeding up. I'm glad we did! We had a limited livestock background and needed to learn the ropes before buying the best we could afford.
> 
> We started by buying several 4H quality does and breeding up from there. It has taken almost 8 years, but we've slowly improved our herd by both retaining/purchasing does and increasing the quality of our herd sires.
> 
> ...


 It is amazing to see the improvement, even in just a couple of generations!


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Oliveoil said:


> This seems to be very common where people sort of fall into goats and then start with what they already have vs. buying all new stock. Not a bad thing at all! I think it definitely teaches people HOW to breed and to appreciate all kinds of stock, not just the fancy show does.


Yes it is. And as others have mentioned, it is best not to start with high quality when you are just learning, unless you have a lot of hands on experience.


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

Where do you think herdsires fall in this? Do you think someone starting out could purchase average/above average does and invest in a high-quality buck who (they think) will cross well with their does and start improving from there? Or better to start over and sell the average/above does they have and buy high-quality does to cross with their buck? I have seen some significant improvement between a generation or two of goats when crossed with a complimentary buck.


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

Morning Star Farm said:


> Yes it is. And as others have mentioned, it is best not to start with high quality when you are just learning, unless you have a lot of hands on experience.


 Yes! Better to make mistakes on the "cheap" does than the pricey ones.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

You can do both. There is nothing wrong with buying the best you can and breeding up from there. We all have to breed up its just a matter of where do you want to start. In my state 4H you get shamed if you dare to buy a nice doe to improve your herd.
I think everyone thinks breeding up is buying your neighbors 5 year old one eyed one teat doe and going up from there. Building up could be going to a reputable breeder and paying $450 for a doeling. There is no shame in starting where you want to start and we need to quit shaming those who do.


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

Goatzrule said:


> You can do both. There is nothing wrong with buying the best you can and breeding up from there. We all have to breed up its just a matter of where do you want to start. In my state 4H you get shamed if you dare to buy a nice doe to improve your herd.
> I think everyone thinks breeding up is buying your neighbors 5 year old one eyed one teat doe and going up from there. Building up could be going to a reputable breeder and paying $450 for a doeling.


 Very true. And if you think about it no matter what you buy you are breeding up in some way, making improvements, etc. some are just more extreme than others.


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## Iluvlilly! (Apr 6, 2019)

I personally buy up, I didn't start out with the best does or bucks but i'm slowly improving my herd every year. I think it works better for me. Let's say i bought a really high up buck and he was $$$$ where would i go from there? Then i would either buy one just as good or more expensive OR down grade...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It really depends on how fast you want high quality. If you buy mediocre, it will take a few to several years to have high quality. But you should buy what you can afford. If it is someone new to goats, not a bad idea to buy cheaper goats not only to learn on but to see if you really like owning goats.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Both. Buy the best you can afford and breed up from there. There is always room to improve.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

happybleats said:


> Both. Buy the best you can afford and breed up from there. There is always room to improve.


 :clever:
Very good advice right here.


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## alwaystj9 (Apr 10, 2019)

Always breed up. Buying or raising your own depends on 1) budget; 2) timeline - breeding up and seeing enough results to judge the results takes years; and 3) available space/facilities/commitment - if you cannot keep enough babies to see your results you can't adequately judge your effectivenes. 
The other consideration is purpose: show stock? performance (dairy or meat) gains? pets?
I raise pets for other people. I always look for better bucks, and I have to consider what's in style...I cull problems. Noticing a trend toward more dairyness and people wanting to milk their goats, my last 2 buck choices are more dairy type than in the past. Going away from pygmy-style to nigi-style, my herd is leaner & leggier looking, lighter weight and more colorful than it was 6 or 7 years ago.


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## AndersonRanch (Oct 18, 2020)

Oliveoil said:


> Where do you think herdsires fall in this? Do you think someone starting out could purchase average/above average does and invest in a high-quality buck who (they think) will cross well with their does and start improving from there? Or better to start over and sell the average/above does they have and buy high-quality does to cross with their buck? I have seen some significant improvement between a generation or two of goats when crossed with a complimentary buck.


Now sires defiantly get the best you can afford! If you are trying to improve your herd this will be the fastest, easiest and cheapest way to get up to what you are wanting. That is something I have been dead set on and will always be set on. 
For me every doe I have out there has qualities besides physical qualities that I am wanting in my herd. Hardy, parasite resistance, good attentive mothers, high ADG without pouring feed to them, good hooves that I don't have to trim but once a year. I would rather keep a doe kid that I have spent years breeding for those other qualities then sell everything off and go for just the physical qualities and gamble on the other things that I find important. I have really reached the point where I'm not buying does any more and if I do then they have to be more then just high quality and at a good enough deal that if she ends up being less then I want I can make my money back after her first kidding and the feed I put into her to find out she's not what I really wanted after all.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Start with good goats, don't try to breed up mineral deficient, scrawny, poorly built goats because it's not worth it. But breed to improve the average ones.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Sires dont apply. Buy the best sire that you can. If you cant afford to get something nice then do driveway breedings until you can. 
We are at a time where there is an incredible amount of nice bucks out there. Too nice of animals for some to go to craigslist and trade buck kids with the farm that's the cutest.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Breed up! When I decided to go into goats. I attended Langston University and took the Meat Course over the Dairy Goat course. After learning all I could..I had to decide what to go with. I learned.with Kiko x BoerBuck. And 3 pairs of does..each commercial boer, Spanish, and bought full blood myotonic buck & does. Through years of trial & error..tears & laughter..trolling in TGS. Reading, studying, each person's ways of their herds. I finally felt comfy in selling most my mixes and get high quality.100%full blood boers. I did get the best bloodlines I could afford for my bucks. I bought their dams with them. Then asked several members for info on bloodlines and colors. I bought some full blood does. So every kid on my property will be registered. Some will be for.4H..Ffa..others for jackpots..and some for breeding. 
I guess it takes me awhile to learn. I had to study the confirmation and learn how to.improve on quality...rather than afford it. I have bloodlines from some of the greats..but now I'm mixing it with.other improved bloodlines. So Im hoping to do 1/2 as well as many on TGS. This is my 5th year..1st for my full blood birthing. It's going to be " like a box of chocolates" gonna wait and see! Lol


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I think a lot of it will depend on the initial interest - meat, dairy, or showing. 
Starting out, I would learn as much as you are able, and try to find the best quality you can within your budget. BUT.... don't break the bank! Get a set number of does and a buck, and get your feet in the water to make sure it's what you want. Then decide where you want to go from there.
We got 2 commercial cross meat does back in 2010 with the idea of having a couple of pets and raising babies for meat. 
Well we decided quickly we were not eating our babies lol.
My kids joined 4H in 2011, and that became our goal - raising goats the kids can show.
We currently have 100% ABGA registered goats, are they big fancy grand champions? No, but they have done okay in ABGA shows, however, our focus is still county fair shows. 
We started into FB Boer goats in 2012, 2 does. Only got kids out of 1 of them, but she set the mold for our FB herd. We sold her after she weaned her 2015 kids but still have her 2015 daughter, and a 2016 grand daughter, as well as 3 grand daughters out of 8 does. 
So I am a huge fan of breeding up! Buying the best buck you can afford/find, and just trying to improve each year. There is such a reward in breeding up and the accomplishments you can achieve.
We just sold off the last of our % goats this summer. Those kids went back to the 3rd doe we ever bought. We happened to keep 1 of her daughters, then kept 1 grand daughter and she set the mold for really nice % kids. It was very hard to sell out of that family.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

We don't show really. But we are interested in milk. We started out with good does, decided we wanted to breed nice quality does. So I sold off the ones that didn't qualify. I chose not to buy the absolute most best does. Mostly because of budget, but I also wanted to create my own lines. I liked the challenge. All my does are very nice does, not amazing, but they milk wonderfully and have great udders that need slight improvements and don't have serious conformation faults.

I do agree about buying the best bucks you can since they have more influence on your herd.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Our method in the beginning was buying average (and above) does and breeding up. I'm glad we did! We had a limited livestock background and needed to learn the ropes before buying the best we could afford.
> 
> We started by buying several 4H quality does and breeding up from there. It has taken almost 8 years, but we've slowly improved our herd by both retaining/purchasing does and increasing the quality of our herd sires.
> 
> ...


Wow...you are definitely doing something right. Your 2015's weren't bad but, your 2020's look really great!! : )


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## alwaystj9 (Apr 10, 2019)

On this topic, I just ran across a sweet new buckling, excellent Nigerian lines, great farm and family, for sale....and I want to change out bucks for next year. Despite my desire to use the best buck and improve, improve, improve....I just cannot justify spending $850 for a buckling. Maybe if I ran a purebred or registered herd or if I had or produced show stock, but not for a mixed mini herd. Did I make the right decision? I typically spend $250 - $400 per buck and use them for 2 years. Is the market that much higher than it was 2 years ago?


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Some questions only you can answer. Depends on what you want..and what you can afford. That's the great thing about goats..there are several avenues to choose from. And you can do more than 1 way at a time. 
One nice thing about buying a higher cost of goat. If you take care of them..they should hold their value. Or their offspring would bring in more $$ also. Just another option.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

alwaystj9 said:


> On this topic, I just ran across a sweet new buckling, excellent Nigerian lines, great farm and family, for sale....and I want to change out bucks for next year. Despite my desire to use the best buck and improve, improve, improve....I just cannot justify spending $850 for a buckling. Maybe if I ran a purebred or registered herd or if I had or produced show stock, but not for a mixed mini herd. Did I make the right decision? I typically spend $250 - $400 per buck and use them for 2 years. Is the market that much higher than it was 2 years ago?


I'm right there with you. For a homestead goat, get the best you can to improve your line ...I believe some of the prices right now are due to the city folks trying to get out of the covid factory's and try country life because it's trendy....in time they'll be selling them for a song and running back to the cities....it's happening here to a point already. Panic buying bring up prices, think about the price of hand sanitizer what used to be a dollar is now three....

Off the point...how did you hold up with the hurricane...is all well?


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

I have really enjoyed reading all of the comments on this thread! Going into my second year of goat breeding, I have definitely learned a lot. One thing is, that I will only buy from proven tested herds from here on out. My brush with CAE confirmed to me that I really just don't want to mess with that. And around here, the tested herds tend to also be the registered show -type herds, so the price tags are higher. 
But also, I've learned that there are qualities I value that go beyond just conformation, registerability, show ring performance etc. I have one doe who would never win any prizes in the show ring, but she puts a lot of milk in the bucket, has a great mind, is very savvy, is not loud or demanding, and is a great mom. My other doe's conformation is much nicer, and she comes from registered stock, and she has a nicer udder, but lacks in those other areas I mentioned above. So, I am planning to cross breed between the kids from the two of them, so hopefully I can create some that have the good qualities from both of the mothers. But I would have never known what I was looking for unless I had just started with what I had, and figured it out as I went along. So I'm really glad that I didn't drop $500 on a really nice doeling, otherwise, I would have been constantly freaked out that I was going to do something wrong and kill it, and wouldn't have felt free to decide what I like and don't like on my own. I knew going in that I probably wouldn't be keeping the buckling that I bought last year long-term. I picked him because I felt that he was the nicest I could find with the knowledge I had at the time, and when I know it's time to move on from him, I will take all of the knowledge I have acquired since buying him, and apply that to finding another buck that will enhance the qualities I'm looking for.


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## alwaystj9 (Apr 10, 2019)

Moers kiko boars said:


> Some questions only you can answer. Depends on what you want..and what you can afford. That's the great thing about goats..there are several avenues to choose from. And you can do more than 1 way at a time.
> One nice thing about buying a higher cost of goat. If you take care of them..they should hold their value. Or their offspring would bring in more $$ also. Just another option.


I just don't think I could raise prices enough on offspring unless I move to registered stock. I have always avoided the registered market. That buckling's a tempting little beauty, though, and not related to my herd which is a plus. After 30 years, my goats seem to be related to everything around. That was the original reason I started paying more for better bucks: I could not get quality outcrosses locally.


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## alwaystj9 (Apr 10, 2019)

Post Hurricane Zeta: Everyone's (animals) are a bit jumpy due to the wind but I only lost the top of one tree. This year I was on one side or another of every hurricane and lost a few treetops and my buck pen fence. Hope my luck holds --- lots of Louisiana is a mess.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

IF I wasn't registered and/or showed etc...I most likely would not spend that much on a buck even if he is stellar. But that's my own stance. I bet you still could find an absolutely great buck for $400 (which seems the standard price around here unless lots of accolades behind/in front of them). But like it's said, only you can answer. I agree that you can only go so high in price with unregistered.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

For the most part, When a first time buyer starts out and buys a goat, most folks are just wanting a goat or two. Not really thinking about getting into breeding and raising goats. Just something for the kids or grand kids to play with and eat a few weeds. So least expensive seems to be the case unless you are buying for a show animal for FFA and or like activities. Then after keeping goats a while you either like them and want to continue keeping goats or you sell out and get out. If staying, Now is when most folks start thinking about improving the quality of their herd. As for my self, I purchased a nice non-registered doe and enjoyed her. Then I decided that I wanted better registered animals. I bought 2 very nice doelings.They turned out to be good animals and I was satisfied with them. That was several years ago and I have been gradually trying to improve my herd. I now own a really great billy and he looks the part and have recently purchase an extremely well bred doe with some old bloodlines and She will be bred to a exceptionally good billy. This cross is my expectation for a second billy and some new bloodlines to work with in the does I already have. So in hind site I would encourage a buyer to consider what their desired goals are and if keepig and breeding goats then by all means purchase the best you can afford.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

I always buy the best I can afford. Sometimes more than what I can comfortably afford  I figure the breeders have put years, sometimes decades into getting their herd to the point it's at. If I buy one of their goats, I've skipped that far ahead! I'd rather build off of quality than start at the bottom and sink money and time into clawing my way to the top.

Even my more casual pursuits (like my 3 pet sheep) I buy quality registered animals. I'd rather spend the money upfront on potential that I don't use than buy an unregistered or inferior animal that I'm not going to be happy with or that I'm going to have to upgrade later. Go big or go home, I guess....just don't ask how much I've spent on new goats this year!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If everyone always buys the best you lose bloodlines. 
Bloodlines wear out eventually. 

Incrossing is good for showing, until it's not. 
Out crossing is good for the goats.


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## Gooseberry Creek (Jun 3, 2020)

I am just starting out. We had dairy goats when I was growing up but they werent all mine- they were my moms even though I did a lot of care with them etc. I learned from that experience that when I got my own herd someday, that I would make sure they all came from good milking lines. 
While its not a guarantee, I think its a better place to start. Then put in the work to make it better.
Our area doesn't have a lot of breeders with documented milk lines for Nigerian Dwarfs or Lamanchas so I had to travel a few hours or have goats transported to me. So if I'm gonna do all that I might as well get registered stock and pay for the best I can afford which I'm sure isnt as much as what some people have lol. 
When I was first looking around in my area, people literally lied about what they had. They would say they were pure or registered but then if you did some checking or actually went to see these goats many did not look pure at all, or looked sickly, or you could find no evidence of documentation. Its the wild west for goats around here lol, so I mainly stuck with only reputable breeders.


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

That is definitely true. Something I saw online said that yes, you might get lucky and find a great deal on a great goat, a diamond in the rough type of goat that might not look like much initially, but more likely is you will buy this animal, be burned, and it would have saved you time, money, and heartache to buy a quality goat from a reputable breeder in the first place.


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## Gooseberry Creek (Jun 3, 2020)

True! I think if one is just wanting a cute pet, the goals will be different than if one is trying to cobble together a good milking or meat line from scratch. 
I love rescue animals. People dump cats out here all the time because we are right at the edge of a large city. We also have dogs and the random rooster dumped as well. 
We give many homeless animals a good home and lots of love but they wont be in my milking herd lol.


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

Yes! Kudos to you for taking in strays, I applaud you for it! I agree with you though, no problem animal will be in my milking herd. I simply do not have to space or money to run a rescue, not to mention I would be potentially exposing my healthy does to all kinds of diseases. No thank you!


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