# Bad week for kidding



## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

We had 9 kids born this past week. Kids from 2 of the 4 does had issues standing. One set took about 12 hours and the other took about 30 hours to stand. One was born dead, 1 died shortly after birth, 1 died at 24 hours due to cold (he walked from birth, but walked out of his hot box into the 15°F weather, 1 died at 48 hours (twin of 24hr death)possibly due to cold or something else. This was the worst delivery week we have ever had. The cold didn't help. 

These kids were from two different bucks. 

Three of these does are first timers. The other has been around 6 years or so. 

We have been doing really good in the past with our kidding. We feed the does a lot of good food and hay. We have loose minerals at all times. Worming, copper bolus, trimming, etc. These ladies are spoiled. We might loose one kid due to a complication, but this week has been awful. 

We have protected pens in the barn with heat lamps and hot boxes, shavings, hay, water, etc. 

I don't know if all these issues are related. In another thread about my kids not standing it was said that it could be selenium deficiency. Would a lack of selenium cause all these other issues? 

We have two more does in the barn that are due over the next 3 weeks. What can I due to try to avoid these issues in the future. Also we have 7 does being bred now.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Do you have a cobalt block out? You may be missing iodine as well as selenium.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

I don't have a cobalt block. 

Over the past 7 years of goat we have only noticed copper deficiency.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.

Selenium is most likely the culprit according to those issues.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Sounds like selenium deficiency. Do you give yours Bo-Se or Selenium E Gel at all? If not, you might look into getting some sort of supplement. I personally don't like Bo-Se use in pregnant does as we had a doe abort after getting it. We use the gel if they are pregnant, and Bo-Se after they kid and before they are bred again. 
Either way, around my area it's best to give Selenium supplement 4 weeks before a doe is due, so when we give cd/t we also give them a dose of the gel.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm so sorry for this bad experience.

I would get selenium into those last 2 does as fast as you can.

Unfortunately selenium deficiency can be like this and just build up or crop on one kidding season! For me that was 2 years ago- it was horrific. It can be changes in the mineral content of feeds or forages or just build up of deficiency. Even a shift in the ground water of a well and change in minerals in that!


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

I have a call into the vet. I did give the gel to the newborns.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

gwith said:


> I have a call into the vet. I did give the gel to the newborns.


Did you give selenium gel to the two pregnant does due in 3 weeks? This could literally save their unborn kids.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

Yes. Will it hurt to give them a selenium shot once I get it from the vet?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

gwith said:


> Yes. Will it hurt to give them a selenium shot once I get it from the vet?


No it will definitely not hurt them in your case where you have had such signs of selenium deficiency in the other pregnancies/kiddings so far. Normally you wouldn't need both but with those does due in only 3 weeks I would say it is critical for their success. I'm so glad you got the oral paste in to them. I'm rooting for a turn-around for the rest of your goat season!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good advice.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Oh man I am so sorry, that is heartbreaking! Were the kids acting normal and eating normal? Could it be something bacterial like e-coli? Maybe get some Spectogard (for pig scours) and dose each kid with it and see if that helps. 
I have the dosage written down as: 1cc per 10lbs. but someone can correct me if I am wrong.

I know in 2016 we had a few babies not acting right at the end of our kidding season, they laid around a lot and just acted like they didn't feel good. Had never had that happen before. I decided to give them the Spectogard, and they were fine within an hour and ready to nurse.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

Great news. We had a set of twins this morning and we had them walking and feeding within 13 minutes. They were also really big.


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

SO very glad to hear that!


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Yay! pictures please


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh good.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)




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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How cute, look at mama too. 
That face.


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

YES! Of course the kids are cute but the mama.... love that expression!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

gwith said:


>


Omgosh...the girls are right....that face <3<3


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Awww very sweet! Mama's expression is priceless!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Super cute


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Congratulations! It really is amazing how quickly selenium deficiency can be turned around! Unlike copper or iron deficiency it seems to improve within a day or sometimes sooner. Keep up the good work!


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

Another set was born yesterday with rubbery back legs. I gave this doe a selenium shot with the other on Jan 5. The kids were 9 days early so that may have something to do with it.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

What adorable babies! And like everyone else, I am in love with their mommy's expression. That picture is just priceless!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Congrats on the newest babies.

Glad a bo-se shot was given, hope they will improve soon.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

gwith said:


> Another set was born yesterday with rubbery back legs. I gave this doe a selenium shot with the other on Jan 5. The kids were 9 days early so that may have something to do with it.


Oh wow, makes me wonder if the Bo-Se shot caused her to kid early :/ I am super nervous about giving Bo-Se to pregnant does myself. We gave a doe years ago a Bo-Se shot almost 4 weeks before she was due, and she aborted 3 days later. Since then I only use the Selenium E Gel for goats on pregnant goats. I've heard randomly that other breeders have experienced this as well. But you live in TX I live in KY, and very different areas.

I hope the babies are doing well? As long as they are doing okay and nursing I'm sure their legs will get strong soon and they will be fine. Fingers crossed.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh my, I am sorry if the Bo-se is making them kid early. 

I had a doe who was 1 month bred not abort, she is still preggo. But she was really deficient then. I gave her a smaller dose, then she was fine.

Did they get full dose Bo-se or less?


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

I gave a full dose. We have 7 others due in 3 months I was going to give selenium to.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

gwith said:


> I gave a full dose. We have 7 others due in 3 months I was going to give selenium to.


I tried to find any documentation of Bo-Se injections causing miscarriages and I just don't see anything on Google. It is so critical for healthy births and healthy newborns. But with others indicating a link between the injection and miscarriages perhaps switch to the Selenium/E oral gel for the last seven pregnant does? I would give at least 4 doses between now and kidding due to the other issues with deficiency you have seen.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

SalteyLove said:


> I tried to find any documentation of Bo-Se injections causing miscarriages and I just don't see anything on Google. It is so critical for healthy births and healthy newborns. But with others indicating a link between the injection and miscarriages perhaps switch to the Selenium/E oral gel for the last seven pregnant does? I would give at least 4 doses between now and kidding due to the other issues with deficiency you have seen.


I agree, which is why years ago I used Bo-Se instead of the gel, and I gave a low dose of it. I just found it ironic that our doe miscarried 3 days later. Other people at the time told me they'd had similar cases as well. In fact I want to say one of the farms that raises show wethers and cattle had that happen with their goats, the owner is a vet, and again, fairly sure she is the first one to tell me she doesn't use Bo-Se on pregnant does, I'll have to ask and ask her opinion on it.

I like the selenium e gel, but always worry if they are getting enough when they are pregnant. I know it's harder to overdose with the gel than it is with the injection. 
The most we even give an adult is 2 1/2cc of Bo-Se. A local vet who I talked to that knows about goats/sheep said that's the most they give them in our area.

I sure hope you can figure out the pastern issue and what is causing your does to kid early.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

Looking back, talking to all of you, and searching the internet, I realized I did not give them their copper bolus the month before they were bred. We have copper deficiency really bad. This is the first time we have missed it and the first time to have all these problems.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

HoosierShadow said:


> I agree, which is why years ago I used Bo-Se instead of the gel, and I gave a low dose of it. I just found it ironic that our doe miscarried 3 days later. Other people at the time told me they'd had similar cases as well. In fact I want to say one of the farms that raises show wethers and cattle had that happen with their goats, the owner is a vet, and again, fairly sure she is the first one to tell me she doesn't use Bo-Se on pregnant does, I'll have to ask and ask her opinion on it.
> 
> I like the selenium e gel, but always worry if they are getting enough when they are pregnant. I know it's harder to overdose with the gel than it is with the injection.
> The most we even give an adult is 2 1/2cc of Bo-Se. A local vet who I talked to that knows about goats/sheep said that's the most they give them in our area.
> ...


Sounds like it could have been a bad batch of BoSe if it all happened around the same time.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good idea Karen.

Was the bottle expired perhaps?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I just saw someone post this on FB and wanted to share this picture. I am guilty of never reading this, but don't know if my bottle came with that, I'm going to pull it out and look at it.

Look at Contraindications.









I'm sorry if this is what is happening to your goats. While I believe some people/farms/areas have no issue using Bo-Se, I believe others do have issues. We only use Bo-Se on non-pregnant goats, before breeding and after kidding. Then use the selenium e gel during pregnancy.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It must not be tested on goats, but I see a concern there.
My vet told me to shoot up my does 1 month before kidding and give them full dose of Mu-se, I cringed and most likely will not do that. As now, I finally have a good loose minerals, in which they all love so I believe they are getting their minerals.
If not I can always give them some after kidding.

I do have to say, I had the 1 doe who was 1 month bred, I gave her a small dose of Bo-se. She needed it.
I try to always way under dose Bo-se and this doe is still preggo now, at 4 months along.

I think it happens when it is over dosed, but I may be wrong.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Oh wow that is odd that your vet would want you to give both Bo-Se and Mu-Se. Isn't Mu-Se stronger? 
Someone on the FB page mentioned they believe it's the carrier in the Bo-Se that can be causing the abortions/miscarriages and makes me wonder if that is true or just over dosing. I am definitely scared of over dosing it, so I tend to under dose. I give it about 1x every six months, and then use the gel randomly as I feel they need it. 

I'm at the point I won't give them anything during pregnancy unless I absolutely can't avoid it. I'll do the cd/t & selenium e gel 4 weeks before they are due, and deworm if needed after 3 months along, otherwise.. I'll wait until they kid. I think we have a few that need copper, but after last year, I'm waiting... I just have a bad gut feeling if I mess with them I'll hurt them. Last year we had 2 does develop toxemia about 3 days after getting a 4 gram dose of copper. I'm sure they are not linked, but you just never know. Raising goats can be so frustrating.
We have the protein/mineral tub, but it doesn't have copper. I free choice minerals out, but good luck getting them to eat them. I've tried different brands, and it just sits in the mineral feeder....


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## HeckertsViewFarm (Apr 28, 2017)

It was. I lost one. I tried everything. It was like she was ready to die before she ever got here. I got to keep her for 2 days. I got another the the day she left us. This one is strong!


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

What is Mu-Se?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

HoosierShadow said:


> Oh wow that is odd that your vet would want you to give both Bo-Se and Mu-Se. Isn't Mu-Se stronger?
> Someone on the FB page mentioned they believe it's the carrier in the Bo-Se that can be causing the abortions/miscarriages and makes me wonder if that is true or just over dosing. I am definitely scared of over dosing it, so I tend to under dose. I give it about 1x every six months, and then use the gel randomly as I feel they need it.
> 
> I'm at the point I won't give them anything during pregnancy unless I absolutely can't avoid it. I'll do the cd/t & selenium e gel 4 weeks before they are due, and deworm if needed after 3 months along, otherwise.. I'll wait until they kid. I think we have a few that need copper, but after last year, I'm waiting... I just have a bad gut feeling if I mess with them I'll hurt them. Last year we had 2 does develop toxemia about 3 days after getting a 4 gram dose of copper. I'm sure they are not linked, but you just never know. Raising goats can be so frustrating.
> We have the protein/mineral tub, but it doesn't have copper. I free choice minerals out, but good luck getting them to eat them. I've tried different brands, and it just sits in the mineral feeder....


 Yeah, so I have decided to just wait it out and see after they kid for signs. It scars me too. 
They are really going nuts over the Sweetlix meat maker and American stockman SE90, which I found in a feed store near by.
So, I think they may be getting what they need.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

goat girls said:


> What is Mu-Se?


 Mu-se is a 5x stronger dose of selenium, then Bo-Se. 
Mu-se is used for cows and not really used for goats, because of strength. 
Mu-se is 1 cc per 200 lbs
Bo-Se is 1 cc per 40 lbs.
But my vet and others have used it, but break it down to be given properly in a 1 cc syringe.


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