# Deformities



## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Ok, so today was a weird one. A little back story- I purchased 2 does bred the beginning of Oct. Auction bought so not much info- was told doe was in with bucks (as in plural and no idea which they were bred to) from Aug to Oct. Both first freshers. The first doe never popped up pregnant, no udder, no belly, nothing. So my Oberhasli doe, the 2nd, kidded this morning. 
I mark my self lucky that this was only really the 2nd complicated labor this year and the only one that I have had the vet come out for. Also glad I did chores late. 
She had twins and both were deformed. The first, a doeling had 5 legs. 3 back and 2 front. One of the back legs was backwards, as was one of the front legs. It made trying to pull the kid very complicated. Plus this one was very dead, as pulling resulted as legs coming off the kid.  I finally got it removed while waiting for the vet. Not a good labor at all. Doe was tired and didn't want to push much. 
The second kid was also bad. It was a buckling, I think- it had a ball sack but I couldn't find a sheath or a vulva anywhere on the body. I had the vet help with that one. The bag hadn't broken yet so I waited for him. Took a lot of twisting and turning to get the kid out. It didn't have a bottom jaw at all and the spine was curled like a spring. It was horrible. I didn't take pictures, they were bad.  
Mainly my question- should I try again with the Doe? Oshy is a little standoffish, but she let me pet her and milk her today. I'm pretty sure I'm never buying a bred doe from auction again but should I try her again? Thoughts?


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Since it's not known who they were bred to, I think it would be reasonable to assume that she was bred to a relative. Now that she's in your procession and you know who she is going to bred to, in addition to you now being the one who will provide her early pregnancy nutrition; I don't think I would worry about it or at the least, give them another try.

My :2c:, maybe someone else has a different view. Sorry it didn't go well.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I agree with Levi: Beef up her nutrition and try her again next fall to a buck who is known to produce nice kids.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Lstein said:


> Since it's not known who they were bred to, I think it would be reasonable to assume that she was bred to a relative. Now that she's in your procession and you know who she is going to bred to, in addition to you now being the one who will provide her early pregnancy nutrition; I don't think I would worry about it or at the least, give them another try.
> 
> My :2c:, maybe someone else has a different view. Sorry it didn't go well.


I don't think it was a relative. Both kids looked like boers, white with black and tan markings. Mom looked nothing like kids... That's why it kinda worries me.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I too would give her another chance. If she happens to throw freaky kids again, cull her.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

The first one sounds like it was 2 kids in one, not sure on the second one, that would have been interesting to see although I am very very sorry you went threw that 
I agree with the rest. There’s a good chance that it was something environmental that went on. She got Into something that causes birth defects. There’s a town about 100 miles away that has something in the water, I don’t think a chemical but something that causes birth defects. So there’s a good chance something along those lines. I also believe valbazen causes birth defects if given in the beginning of pregnancy. But something along those lines would be my guess. Out of all my years and all the kids and calfs I have had I’ve only had 2 odd balls and not like you had. On the goat the second was also very much healthy so for both to be deformed is either seriously bad luck or something more then something went bad in the lines.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

How freaky! It's quite possible she was exposed to a drug or other toxic chemical early in her pregnancy that caused these birth defects. There are a few drugs and wormers that are not supposed to be given to pregnant does, but not all farmers read the label and will dose everyone in the herd. Same thing with some herbicides and other chemicals that get sprayed around farms.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I agree with EVERYONE here so far. She got exposed to something, or the buck got exposed to some thing, or some sort of merging happened in the womb.

Since you own her, and since you like her (or why would you have bought her?) give her one more shot while paying attention to her nutrition and keeping her away from any chemicals you possibly can.

If you need to pass her on after that, you've done your due diligence.

And wow, so many kudos to you. You've had a really, really tough day.

BTW, the first doe. Did she come from the same place (not the same auction, the same home before the auction)? If so, I'd watch her next pregnancy closely as well.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

mariarose said:


> BTW, the first doe. Did she come from the same place (not the same auction, the same home before the auction)? If so, I'd watch her next pregnancy closely as well.


The other doe did come from the same farm. I will have to watch her. I plan to breed/rebreed her with my buck next month. So I will definitely be watching them closer.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I will give her another chance and try to breed her again in a couple months. Probably won't be until the end of summer though. That way she has some time to heal.

Any thoughts on milking her? I milked her for the colostrum, and was thinking to continue milking her (If she lets me...) If it was an enviromental/chemical cause for the deformities, would the milk still be safe? I don't need the milk from her, but figured since she is a dairy breed that I had gotten for the purposes of milking that I should probably think of that. I already have an Alpine that I am getting a bit over 2L a day from, so I definitely don't need the milk. I do share milk with the farm cats plus using it for any bottle babies (Which I have none at the moment). So would it still be safe for other animals or human consumption?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I would definitely milk her, because not milking her can cause less production later. I don't know what to tell you about what to do with the milk. I would give it to my dogs. But I have a lot of dogs and it can't be worse than what is in commercial dogfood. But I won't tell you what to do, other than to milk her for future production reasons.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

How long have you had her for? I think most withdrawal time on drug is 30 days, so play it safe and 60 days should be good I would imagine. (Other people’s thoughts?) even if you milk and dump for now eventually you should be able to consume it


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I agree with Jessica


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Jessica84 said:


> How long have you had her for? I think most withdrawal time on drug is 30 days, so play it safe and 60 days should be good I would imagine. (Other people's thoughts?) even if you milk and dump for now eventually you should be able to consume it


I have had her since Oct and the only meds I have given her are a CdT booster and the vet gave her some uterine boluses after pulling the kids. I try not to medicate if possible. None of the feed is medicated either, except for the wean pens.

She will only be able to be milked in the morning for a week or so. I do morning chores (I work night shift) and hubby does night chores (he works day shift). He said he tried to milk her tonight and she fought and ran from him, so no luck there.  She will probably be easier to milk when she is more used to it. She was a FF and hadn't been handled a lot.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The poor thing. However you need to schedule your lives is the correct thing to do here.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Do NOT breed her back in a couple months. Milk her. Feed her. Get her healthy. Make sure anything residual from her previous home is out of her system. Breed her next fall.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Did the vet give antibiotics since she had dead babies inside? 
Her milk should be ok after the milk withdrawl time is over for the antibiotics.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Goats Rock said:


> Did the vet give antibiotics since she had dead babies inside?
> Her milk should be ok after the milk withdrawl time is over for the antibiotics.


Only thing he gave was the uterine boluses. Not the greatest vet but he does come when I call (sometimes..) and he is the closest. He likes to just tell me to kill first instead of treat. That's why I only call him if it's an emergency and I can't handle it myself. I get meds from a different vet but the med vet is over an hr away. I prefer the med vet but his prices for coming out to the farm are huge. Like $150 for just the drive out not including actually looking at anything. I haul to him if I can manage but with a goat in the middle of kidding, I really didn't want to haul.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

That’s fine with the no meds with a dead kid. As long as it isn’t totally decaying or anything I don’t give it either. I do do the uterine boluses though. I just had a doe (5 days ago) that had a dead kid, totally fine looking just half grown. I didn’t give her anything other then the bolus and she’s fine. I just keep a close eye on them.
You will be fine only milking her once a day if that’s all you can do. Now I don’t raise dairy goats but I do have a few and that’s how I do it. My alpine lost her kids last year and I just milked in the morning. I’m sure I didn’t get as much milk as milking twice a day but it was a decent amount.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with everyone. 
I am so sorry it happened.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Jessica84 said:


> You will be fine only milking her once a day if that's all you can do. Now I don't raise dairy goats but I do have a few and that's how I do it.


I tell my friends that my normal is only milking once a day (there are exceptions from time to time). I've discovered they don't believe me, come online to tell me I'm wrong, and discover that once a day milking is a real thing. Jessica, thank you for giving one more reference!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I milk only once a day too. I like having milk, but not 2x/day worth. I also don't like having my evenings tied down by milking chores.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

I only milk once a day two!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

We'll start a club, and call is something incredibly original, like A Daily Dairy (Instead of a daily diary, get it? Oh, OK, That's a No, then.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I wonder why they don’t believe it? I’ve never really thought about it on the two times a day being the only way to go side


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Not a lot of thinking outside the box, or outside how our ancestors (grandma and grandpa) did it.

I'm still an outsider here, So I'm probably just doing it wrong because I don't know any better..


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

Ok, off topic here but... I know that in France and at least one south american country, it is common for goat dairies to breed specifically for efficient once-a-day milkers. I also know of some breeders here in US who do that. Apparently some udder structures are more capable of giving you maximum output on a once a day schedule, and that udder structure is hereditary. Something about a cistern being visible, but not confusing it with a meaty udder....


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