# Packgoat Ban in National Forests, PART 1



## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

(This post will be added to on a "piece meal" basis...it is too lengthy of an explanation to deal with in one sitting.)

Dear Goat Spot Community Forum members -

Several years ago I was asked to work with Jan Huffaker, former President of our North American Packgoat Association, over Land Use issues. I was totally "green" on the subject, and spent lots and lots of hours studying...the learning curve was pretty steep. Jan knew a ton of information, as well as Carolyn Eddy and others about the subject. Carolyn and others had done a wonderful job at building close relationships with the U.S. Forest Service in Oregon and Washington by doing trail maintenance, garbage cleanup, etc.

Anyway, things were starting to "brew" in Wyoming, in the Shoshone National Forest, and rumors were heard that the U.S. Forest Service, the Game & Fish folks, and private organizations such as FNAWS, now known as the Wyoming Sheep foundation, wanted to ban packgoats from core bighorn sheep habitat, on the East side of the Continental Divide. The commercial packgoat permit was even purchased from the owner of Wind River Packgoats by FNAWS, in order to eliminate commercial goat packing in the Winds. This gave them a foot in the door to begin to eliminate goatpacking in the Forest.

I started studying Peer Reviewed Scientific Studies done by Scientists at WSU. *This is critically important.*. Peer reviewed studies are not to be taken lightly. I found that a bunch of different scientists sign off on the study before it is published. So it is a really big deal. _And I discovered that there is not a single peer reviewed study in existence that shows where domestic goats have been commingled with Bighorn Sheep and death or illness has occurred._ A study was conducted in 1994 by documented by Dr. Foreyt of WSU where he penned domestic goats with Bighorn Sheep. The bighorn sheep remained healthy after contact with the domestic goats. I can go into more detail about this document at a later date, as a number of different animals were penned with bighorn sheep. The domestic sheep and the mouflan sheep produced fatal results with the bighorn sheep. But, I repeat, there was no evidence of sickness or death when the bighorn sheep were in direct nose-to-nose contact with the domestic goats. This is the only experiment that we have ever been able to find where goats and bighorn sheep were penned together. I say this because in phone conversations with Dr. Foreyt himself, he told me that there is not sufficient data to make any kind of determinations such as bans, but just to be safe, keep the two species separated and avoid nose-to-nose contact. We goatpackers can do this, if we highline our animals at night in bighorn sheep country, and we strongly encourage everyone to follow this practice.

(to be continued)


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

I should back up and say that I got into goatpacking because I love to go fly fishing in the Mountains of Wyoming, Idaho and Utah and go after large trout that are deep in the remote areas of these mountains. But I am 56 years old now and do not feel like humping a 50 lb backpack anymore. So when I read a book by Gary LaFontane and they used to load up panniers on his buddy's goat named Rufus and head for the high alpine lakes, I was hooked. NOW I could still enjoy the back country, and have my trail companions carry my essentials. Before I got the book, one of my friends mentioned packgoats, and I thought he was smoking something. Never heard of P-A-C-K-G-O-A-T-S.

Five years ago I took my sons and we goatpacked 18 miles in to some high lakes in mid-July. The cutthroat trout were still spawning, and ice was just coming off of the lakes. I loved it. I marveled at how these goats of mine would work their hearts out for me, just to please me. I admired their affection, their loyalty and their devotion to me.


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## Spanish (Feb 13, 2013)

This is interesting, was just reading email the other day about what you just wrote about,
and said they will be trying to stop it, what a shame, isn't it a fact that the goats should be caring a health cert. and isn't the cert. valid for 30 days, it would seem to me that the goats would be quit healthy to begin with, who would want to try to work a sick goat. Anyway I think I would be more concerned about the health issues going to the goats. Will try to find the article I just recieved and post it.


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## Spanish (Feb 13, 2013)

http://wildlife.org/Alaska/sites/wildlife.org.Alaska/files/red_disease_risk_statement.pdf


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Unbelievable. That is just ridiculous. It is a shame that these left wing liberals are getting so outrageous in their demands.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

I would be willing to help. What can we do, do we need to write letters to senators or exactly what would have the most impact? They are pushing the horses off more and more trails as well. I think both are ridiculous.


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

In my future postings, I will reference Game and Fish reports *claiming* domestic goats are linked with disease transmission to Bighorn Sheep. These reports are usually written by biologists, and they reference published scientific documents that pertain to DOMESTIC SHEEP, but nowhere do they reference domestic goat studies. So they subtly and deliberately have lumped domestic goats in with domestic sheep, they have ignored the Best Management Practices proposed by regional boards to avoid direct contact (which makes sense to me). Rather they are choosing to push for a TOTAL BAN. REALLY???? How are they going to keep the wild mountain goats, which carry organisms, out of the National Forests? Put a fence around the entire forest? How about the cattle that have been shown to share water troughs in the winter with bighorn sheep during the winter? To me, and others, there seems to be a hidden agenda at the federal level, and I haven't figured out yet what it is.

There are very few goatpackers that visit the Fitzpatrick Wilderness Area. It is a very remote region. The odds of goatpackers running into bighorn sheep are extremely small. And if Best Management Practices are implemented, chances of commingling are one in a million. My goodness, all I want to do is go enjoy the high alpine lakes in theWinds and go catch golden trout. Isn't there room enough for us and our packgoats, that have been vaccinated? I am really not interested in my goats infecting Bighorn Sheep, even though that has never ever been proven to be the case, even in a laboratory setting.

More to come....


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

*US Forest Service BAN*



NubianFan said:


> I would be willing to help. What can we do, do we need to write letters to senators or exactly what would have the most impact? They are pushing the horses off more and more trails as well. I think both are ridiculous.


Thanks so much for your interest, NubianFan. You folks ARE AWESOME!

NAPgA has hired the best attorney that we could possibly find that is an expert in this area, to represent us. He has produced a masterpiece of a rebuttal document to the US Forest Service, during their 90 public comment period. Now we are waiting to hear back from the USFS as to what they decide to do with our recommendations. We are also waiting to hear the results of a court case in Idaho that could leave the Forest Service with egg on their faces, due to sloppy "modeling" and referencing inaccurate sources on their part.

Our plan is to raise cash, lots of it, in case this has to go to court. We can first appeal their decisions, but if it escalates from there, NAPgA wants to be prepared and ready to take this all the way to court and win. We have the evidence, or lack of it, to win in court, in my opinion. We just need to build the financial resources to have our attorney to represent us if have to go there.


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

The "hidden agenda" is control, plain and simple. This is not a "left-wing liberal" agenda nor a "right-wing conservative" one. It's just a power play by a government that thinks they own the land that actually belongs to the public. 

It's also a display of willful ignorance and bureaucracy at work. There's a lot of misunderstanding and mismanagement by folks who spent a pile of money on a degree but spent no time in the field. It's much easier to pick on small groups like goat packers to make it look like they're "doing something" about wildlife health problems that they don't know much about and whose proper solutions (if there are any) would be a lot more complicated and less showy than a ban. This way they can claim the problem is solved (even if it's not) and hope no one will notice. These departments have to justify their existence, and if they're not banning someone, closing off trails, and placing ever more restrictions, they're clearly not important and might lose funding.


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

I had noticed some resistance lately when I take my Peggy Sue out hiking with me. She isn't a packgoat, she's just my little companion animal, and since she only weighs 45# and is 16 inches tall I take her anywhere dogs are allowed. Recently I've been stopped and told I can't bring my goat into the park. Upon further investigation the park rangers admitted it wasn't yet policy, but that the safety of the native wildlife might be at stake. I'm happy to make a big stink for my baby's right to hike wherever she wants! Ironically, where I live the only real wildlife is white-tailed deer, which my poor goat already got Meningeal worms from (though she's fine now).

Thankfully making a big scene and demonstrating how my cute little Pygmy "goes" on command so that I can clean up after her has embarrassed local rangers enough to leave us alone, but it shouldn't be a hassle to take my goat for a hike.

I think lots of us here at TGS feel the same way. I'm happy to donate what I can to the cause.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

I posted a rather long reply but it got eaten by cyber space. My nephew is coming in tonight and I am in the middle of holiday madness cooking and cleaning, so I will get back to that later...


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

SO ridiculous!!! going to follow, and let us know how we can help!


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

Spanish said:


> Anyway I think I would be more concerned about the health issues going to the goats. Will try to find the article I just received and post it.


EXACTLY. I am concerned about my pack goats receiving disease from the wild bighorn sheep.


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

*The science between disease transmission from goats to sheep*

Here is a link to a peer reviewed scientific paper written by Dr. Rudolph.

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/action/doSearch?searchText=hells+canyon

I will re-type the summary located on page 901 of this paper---

"Because the samples were not obtained from the animals prior to contact, the direction of transmission could not be ascertained with certainty. The fact that identical strains of Pasturella, particularly biovariant 1 P. haemolytica, were isolated from both goats and bighorn sheep is suggestive of transmission of the organisms from goats to bighorn sheep. However, because both the biovariant 1 and Tox A + organisms were limited to the three animals shot on 29 November 1995 and *were not isolated from any of the other bighorn sheep in Groups A and B, there is no evidence that those organisms were associated with subsequent disease or deaths.* Although we know of no other information regarding transfer of potentially lethal Pasturella spp. between domestic goats and free ranging bighorn sheep, we believe that goats can serve as a reservoir. Thus interactions between the two species should be avoided to prevent Pasturella transmission that could negatively impact the health of bighorn sheep populations.

Pack goats have gained popularity for use on public and private lands. We recommend that individuals with pack goats have total control of their animals when in or near bighorn sheep habitat, both while on the trail and at the campsite. Likewise, we recommend that any bighorn sheep should be driven away from goats to prevent nose-to-nose contact and that nay bighorn sheep that does come into direct contact should be removed from the herd to prevent potential transmission of disease causing organisms to other bighorn sheep."


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

This is an outstanding peer reviewed paper to read if you take the time to read it. It dispels the myths and rumors that are being spread by Game and Fish biologists. The rumor is, is that _"there is overwhelming evidence that goats cause catastrophic death amongst Bighorn Sheep populations..." _ blah blah blah... The truth here that Dr. Rudolph points out, in the Hells Canyon die-off, is that the Groups of Bighorn Sheep that died off 30 km away died of an unrelated organism that was found in the feral goats. She goes on to state that she knows of no other information concerning disease transmission between goats and bighorn sheep.

So where do the Game and Fish biologists come up with their overwhelming evidence that the scientists have been unable to discover???


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

In February of 2012, a carload of us drove through blinding blizzards from northern Utah to Cody, Wyoming to meet with the US Forest Service personnel to discuss our concerns about closing the US Forest Districts in the Wind River Range. At one point in our trip, I remember driving through ground blizzards near South Pass, on the southern end of the Winds, Dave S. asked me,"Charlie, can you see the road?" My reply was, NO!"  We found the USFS personnel to be cordial and polite, I suspect that they are receiving their direction from the Federal level. We returned in June of the same year to discuss keeping the East side of the Winds open. We had a conference call with Drs from Washington State University that have forgotten more about goats than I will ever know in this lifetime, we had Mr. Bill Myers, our attorney. We laid out a proposal to suggest Best Management Practices that would suggest packgoat owners highline their goats at night, wear a GPS collar in core bighorn sheep areas, etc. We felt that our proposals were consistent with Dr. Rudolph's managment suggestions.

*The USFS replied with NO. They want ZERO RISK.*

Now that really makes a lot of sense, now that there are mountain goats roaming the countryside in Titcomb Basin, which is in Bighorn Sheep area. What are they going to do with them? They possess organisms that are potentially lethal to bighorn sheep. Do they plan to euthanize them and then place a fence around the Shoshone National Forest, in order to achieve zero risk?

We like the management proposals suggested by Dr. Rudolph and others. Keep our packgoats away from the bighorn sheep. I think I can really accomplish this. I take five or so packgoats deep into the Winds, not thousands of brush goats. I think that I can keep an eye on these five.


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

Wow, that is so irritating.  Some of these government types get their kicks wasting their time picking on the little guy. What they're saying is just stupid too. It doesn't sound like they have anything to back up their claim at all and they're not even willing to work out a deal with you guys. It sounds like your proposal was more than fair. 

Also, why should a park care about anyone bringing their disease free domesticated goat to a wildlife park? I think the wildlife would pose a bigger threat to their goat than vice versa. Life and death are just a part of nature. If those sheep aren't getting medical attention and are just living naturally then die offs and stuff will happen for whatever reason that happens. That's just how nature rolls.


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

NAPgA has hired a wonderful attorney in Jackson Wyoming to represent us in our fight. He produced a masterpiece of a document to the Forest Service when it was timely to submit responses to their EIS proposal and their Forest Plan revision proposal.

NAPgA is trying to raise funds to in order to have our attorney to represent us in court, if this goes that far. If we have the cash, I feel that we have more than adequate documentation to argue our case and WIN.

The Llama folks had to deal with this act of Government control back in the 80's and they won.


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

It has been said that Bighorn Sheep are looking for a place to die. I do not like that, but it appears like they are pretty weak in the first place, in this area of the Winds that the Game and Fish are trying to get them to prosper. Selenium blocks were placed in the wilderness areas and the sheep began to prosper...until the mountain lions figured it out and began to camp out for an easy meal.

It is the ZERO RISK mandate that set off the alarms in my head that this Ban had absolutely nothing to do with logic or sound reasoning. Yes, they are picking on us little guys, and we do not want them to get away with it.


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

Bighorn Sheep licenses bring BIG MONEY to States that raise them. So Hunters can pay huge dollars to come in from out of state and kill the biggest and best rams.

Makes a lot of sense, right?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Apparently the forest rangers don't know much about the animal and only care about the money. Every part of the government has pretty much gone out of their minds. Nothing they do makes sense anymore. But of course it is easy to pick on the little guy instead of addressing the actual problem which in this case would be to stop hunting the sheep. Obviously the hunting of the best sheep is going to ruin them.


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

I have good friends in Oregon and Washington that do trail maintenance with their goats. They, like myself, are Leave No Trace trainers, and they help maintain the trails since the FS rangers don't have the budget to do it.

We have hauled chain saws in to the Forest, up to the Wilderness Boundary, and cleared trail of deadfall here in the Winds. I enjoy it, it clears the trails so that backpackers and horse people can access the high country through these burned areas. But it would be nice if they would treat us like we are friends of the Forest, and not scumbags as we are now viewed.


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## sotagoat (Jul 19, 2013)

*Sounds like a sheep problem, not a goat problem...*

I think rifles will be doing more damage to the bighorn sheep than my goats will if this keeps up! Please put me on the list of a$$-kickers when they ban more areas....How much money needs raised for the lawyer? Is this truley the best lawyer? Are we really doing everything we can? I am already a member of the NAPGA....where can we get more updates on progress?


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## saph (Dec 19, 2009)

I have read the (30+ page) response from NAPGA (I assume it was prepared by the lawyer they hired). It is very well crafted & thorough. A little background--I used to work for the Forest Service & have participated in the Forest Plan Revision process, as well as many other environmental documents.

Unfortunately, politics are not on our side in this issue. Not that NAPGA can't prevail, but if Wyoming Fish & Game is recommending a permanent closure to pack goats, the Forest Service has little choice but to go with Fish & Game Agency "Experts," especially if that State Agency is the one that oversees wildlife on Federal Land. Ask yourself: if you were the Federal Government, who would you rather get along with? A group of special interest folks that represent a tiny fraction of recreational users? Or the State Agency that you regularly meet with & that sells all the hunting & fishing licenses that generate a vast amount of revenue to the local area?

Again, this is not to say we can't prevail. In it's response, NAPGA presented a well-crafted list of "Mitigation Measures" (also known as Best Management Practices, or BMPs). These included: High-lining at night, keeping goats leashed at all times when traveling through Wild Sheep habitat, and carrying GPS devices on our goats so they could be located in the unlikely event they should be separated from their owners. These were just a few of the Measures we as a Community were willing to take. These SHOULD HAVE BEEN INCLUDED in the Alternatives and ANALYZED in the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS). However, the Forest Service failed to do so. This is a major flaw in the document. The Forest Service needs to go back and analyze the Mitigation Measures and their effectiveness, before releasing their Final Decision. The NAPGA comment letter mentioned this flaw (as did my individual comment letter).

We, as a community, need to come up with solutions and work COLLABORATIVELY (a HUGE Federal "Buzzword") with the Forest Service and Wyoming Fish and Game in this matter. Our Mitigations, or BMPs, were a good-faith effort at this collaboration. Why was this collaborative effort not included in the Alternatives and analyzed in the Forest Plan Revision Draft EIS?

To date, the Forest Service has not responded to our comments and letters on the Draft EIS. According to their timeline, the Shoshone should have released the Final Environmental Impact Statement by now. The government shutdown in October may have slowed them down. Not sure what the timeframe is for their response, but you NEED to get on the SHOSHONE FOREST PLAN REVISION MAILING LIST NOW. Here's how:
Contact: Carrie Christman, Revision Team Leader, Shoshone National Forest
[email protected] 
Telephone: 307.578.5118

Good luck, and thanks for all your interest and support!


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## TOU (Aug 18, 2013)

Some great posts...thx Saph!

Charlie...you are so awesome & we the Pack Goat crew are so lucky to have you!!! Thx so much for taking the time, effort as well as sweat & blood you you & others have given for this. We will find a way to fund this fight one way or the other.

Overall its just plain ridiculous that we are even having to go through this...and you all are right, it makes no sense. If they had even a clue of the type of folks who have true Pack Goats, among many other things, they would know we go through extreme lengths to have and maintain the abilities & health of our animals. I mean seriously...who pours the amount of time effort & money we do into raising wethers to 4 years old..._before we can even use them for their given purpose_...knowing we can not even definitively replicate them when they are gone? Who spends the kind of money & efforts on wethers for veterinary services that we do? Or float there teeth to extend their life knowing they are too old to pack. Or X-ray them regularly to see if Osteo Arthritis is getting to advanced? Who would do all this and then when they are older and tired would put our trusty wethers out to pasture rather than butcher them?

Who would be willing to go to the lengths we suggest with BPS's other than Pack Goaters. We are not saints but we value our companion animal wethers more than the average person would. We would NOT knowingly ever take unhealthy animals on a trip...why would we? We go to extreme lengths to keep them stronger and healthier than the average goat. We go to extreme measures to make sure they are never lost. We go to extreme measures to find them if on the odd chance they ever were lost. We try to raise them in such a way that they are so bonded to us that they would rather die than be left behind on the trail. I.E Become lost.



NubianFan said:


> I posted a rather long reply but it got eaten by cyber space. My nephew is coming in tonight and I am in the middle of holiday madness cooking and cleaning, so I will get back to that later...


Look forward to it.


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## idahonancy (Dec 13, 2008)

Thank you Saph, just sent my note to get on the mailing list.
IdahoNancy and the Oberpackers.
We play in Idaho and Montana


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

*Attorney*



sotagoat said:


> I think rifles will be doing more damage to the bighorn sheep than my goats will if this keeps up! Please put me on the list of a$$-kickers when they ban more areas....How much money needs raised for the lawyer? Is this truley the best lawyer? Are we really doing everything we can? I am already a member of the NAPGA....where can we get more updates on progress?


There are two attorneys that know more about Bighorn Sheep and domestic sheep and domestic goats and their interaction than anyone else in the country, and that is Bill Myers from Boise and Andy Irvine from Jackson, WY. We started with Bill M., and he referred us to his assistant, Andy Irvine, after a time, in order to save NAPgA money. Yes, we have the best attorney available for our needs. Andy is very friendly, an active backpacker, and has already graciously donated some of his time (Pro Bono) to our cause. It may not come to court and litigation, but we need to be prepared to do so, so we are not caught with our pants down, so to speak. I am thinking around $75K to $100K would prepare us financially for litigation. This is only my opinion, but based on history with the Llama packers in the 80's I do not believe that the Forest Service and Game & fish think that we have the ability to raise that kind of money to fight them in court. I personally would like to prove them wrong. TOU is better at this than I am, but it would only take 1000 goat owners or vets or anyone else to donate $100 each to come up with $100K. I believe that it is possible, if we come together on this.

Like I said, the Llama folks' access was threatened years ago, and they were able to stand up in court and WIN. I like that.


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

We are not the only ones that realize that the "modeling" done by the US Forest Service is sloppy inaccurate work. And it may be because they are overworked and understaffed. There is currently a lawsuit against the Forest Service by the Wool Growers Association that addresses this. And if the judge rules in favor with the Wool Growers, it will definitely help us.

My point in bringing this up is since we have a very experienced and knowledgable attorney, and we are telling the truth, we can win in court if we have the funds to get there, if need be. We just have to wait and see what the USFS does with EIS and Forest Plan Revision documents. 

Thank you all for your interest and your willingness to help.

By the way, the NAPgA site has a paypal button on their home page if anyone wants to donate.


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## TOU (Aug 18, 2013)

:clap: :thankU: Charlie!!!



vigilguy said:


> In my future postings, I will reference Game and Fish reports *claiming* domestic goats are linked with disease transmission to Bighorn Sheep. These reports are usually written by biologists, and they reference published scientific documents that *pertain to DOMESTIC SHEEP*, but nowhere do they reference domestic goat studies.


Exactly..._claiming_.



> So they *subtly and deliberately have lumped domestic goats in with domestic sheep*,


:shrug:
This may be one of the most vital points in our fight and their error.



> they have ignored the Best Management Practices proposed by regional boards to avoid direct contact (which makes sense to me). Rather they are choosing to push for a TOTAL BAN.


:wallbang: his is definitely not working in a "Collaborative" effort.



> And if Best Management Practices are implemented, chances of commingling are one in a million.


Or less...



Nanno said:


> The "hidden agenda" is control, plain and simple. This is not a "left-wing liberal" agenda nor a "right-wing conservative" one. It's just a power play by a government that thinks they own the land that actually belongs to the public.


Agreed...It may be the cynic in me, but I always say follow the money. Think about this, they charge exorbitant prices to eliminate the biggest, strongest and healthiest BHS from the gene pool. I.E. They continue to issue hunting tags. *WHAT THE HECK?* :think:



> It's also a display of willful ignorance and bureaucracy at work. There's a lot of misunderstanding and mismanagement by folks who spent a pile of money on a degree but spent no time in the field.


Very True...we can, should and will fight this one way or the other. We will fund this one way or the other. I'm doing it for my health and for my 5 kids & soon to come grandkids.



> It's much easier to pick on small groups like goat packers to make it look like they're "doing something" about wildlife health problems that they don't know much about and whose proper solutions (if there are any) would be a lot more complicated and less showy than a ban. _*This way they can claim the problem is solved (even if it's not) and hope no one will notice*._


:GAAH:Typical government bureaucracy shell game. My questions are what are they going to if banning out goats when this still doesn't solve the problem? Blame us for sneaking in when no ones looking? Also, this was a problem for BHS lonnnnng before packing goats ever existed...IIRCC the die offs started decades before.



> These departments have to justify their existence, and if they're not banning someone, closing off trails, and placing ever more restrictions, they're clearly not important and might lose funding.


It seems they are more about limiting use rather than focusing on protection or insuring use for the public..._all of the public._



vigilguy said:


> EXACTL Y. I am concerned about my pack goats receiving disease from the wild bighorn sheep.


This is not just a facetious comment, folks, it really is a concern. There is actually a strong chance our animals are just as at risk or more on the receiving end of things...which is why we as Packers have motivation and desire to keep our goats away from BHS.



vigilguy said:


> Here is a link to a peer reviewed scientific paper written by Dr. Rudolph.
> 
> http://www.jwildlifedis.org/action/doSearch?searchText=hells+canyon
> 
> ...





> "Because the samples were not obtained from the animals prior to contact, the direction of transmission could not be ascertained with certainty."


Exactly, they could have actually been transferred to the domestic animals rather than the reverse...seriously.




> "However, because both the biovariant 1 and Tox A + organisms were _*limited to the three animals*_ shot on 29 November 1995 and *were not isolated from any of the other bighorn sheep in Groups A and B, there is no evidence that those organisms were associated with subsequent disease or deaths."*


From scientific research prospective this is a real problem with the FS deductions, arguments and recommendations. This is like the turn of the century growth charts based on 300 inner city Irish kids. Correlation is week at best.




> "Although *we know of no other information regarding transfer* of potentially lethal Pasturella spp. between domestic goats and free ranging bighorn sheep, we believe that goats can serve as a reservoir. *Thus interactions between the two species should be avoided* to prevent Pasturella transmission that could negatively impact the health of bighorn sheep populations.


As to which is the definitive reservoir is VERY debatable in my mind. As to the rest, I think that you will get little argument from Packers.

If I understand correctly though, I think a really important point is the goats compared were *NOT PACK-goats,* correct?




> "Pack goats have gained popularity for use on public and private lands. We recommend that individuals with pack goats have total control of their animals when in or near bighorn sheep habitat, both while on the trail and at the campsite. Likewise, we recommend that any bighorn sheep should be driven away from goats to prevent nose-to-nose contact and that nay bighorn sheep that does come into direct contact should be removed from the herd to prevent potential transmission of disease causing organisms to other bighorn sheep."


Again, no argument here, I can live with that, IMHO it benefits my goats health as much as anything.



vigilguy said:


> This is an outstanding peer reviewed paper to read if you take the time to read it. It dispels the myths and rumors that are being spread by Game and Fish biologists. *The rumor is*, is that _"there is overwhelming evidence that goats cause catastrophic death amongst Bighorn Sheep populations..." _blah blah blah...


R.U.M.O.R! Don't confuse us with actual facts. 



> The truth here that Dr. Rudolph points out, in the Hells Canyon die-off, is that the Groups of Bighorn Sheep that died off *30 km away* died of *an unrelated organism* that was found in the *FERAL GOATS*. She goes on to state that she knows of *no other information concerning disease transmission between goats and bighorn sheep*.


HUGE...*HUGE* points!



> So where do the Game and Fish biologists come up with their overwhelming evidence that the scientists have been unable to discover???


*WEAK*..._Weak_..weak!!! :doh:This is exactly the reason we HAVE to fund this; raise and spend the money this first and last time fight..once and for all so it is said and done one time definitively! :help:I know the funds seem overwhelming... as a total, they seem that way. Just need to break them down to bite sizes. More on that shortly...



vigilguy said:


> In February of 2012, a carload of us drove through blinding blizzards from northern Utah to Cody, Wyoming to meet with the US Forest Service personnel to discuss our concerns about closing the US Forest Districts in the Wind River Range. At one point in our trip, I remember driving through ground blizzards near South Pass, on the southern end of the Winds, Dave S. asked me,"Charlie, can you see the road?" My reply was, NO!"


A side note, I have spent considerable time in this area. What folks don't realize is this area hits 8,000 ft elevation and it seems like you are in a desert...a HIGH desert...until you drive down to Lander. It is the area of the ill fated Martin & Willie Handcart disasters of the mid 1800's...but that is another story. More than you wanted to know...



> We found the USFS personnel to be cordial and polite, _{snip}_ We laid out a proposal to suggest Best Management Practices that would suggest packgoat owners highline their goats at night, wear a GPS collar in core bighorn sheep areas, etc. We felt that our proposals were consistent with Dr. Rudolph's managment suggestions.
> 
> *The USFS replied with NO. They want ZERO RISK. *


I think they had made up their mind before you ever drove there, it was mainly a formality & to see what kind of support you had. Even better reason to mount a serious opposition this time and be willing to fight by putting our money where our mouth is...there may not be another opportunity and the outcome will likely be far reaching then their initial proposals. I.E. They will use the outcome for a land mark case and use it for a "case law" scenario.

Lest anyone think otherwise this is for all Packers regardless of local...it will come to a forest near you eventually...if not for BHS for something else. We need to show complete unification and will need all's support. :help: Hopefully this will be the one and only time necessary especially if we win, (Maybe the only opportunity.) This realistically includes all Packers regardless of species...horse, mules, llamas or goats. :help:



> Now that really makes a lot of sense, now that there are mountain goats roaming the countryside in Titcomb Basin, which is in Bighorn Sheep area. What are they going to do with them? They possess organisms that are potentially lethal to bighorn sheep. Do they plan to euthanize them and then place a fence around the Shoshone National Forest, in order to achieve zero risk?


Zero Risk canNOT exist...except in a vacuum. Even then I doubt it.



> We like the management proposals suggested by Dr. Rudolph and others. Keep our packgoats away from the bighorn sheep. I think I can really accomplish this.


Agreed...Packers are willing to do this and then some, its common sense and if nothing else it protects our investments and most of us are already about decreased impact to the environment.

More to come....sorry so long.


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## vigilguy (Dec 12, 2008)

This is one of the documents produced by the U.S. Forest Service. You are welcome to read the entire report. Some things that stand out to me are that they have done a pretty good job of referencing planned pen experiments between domestic sheep and bighorn sheep. I have studied those scientific papers in detail and many of them paint a dismal picture regarding domestic sheep and commingling with bighorn sheep. Understand that these are pen experiements and would be like you being cooped up in a bedroom for several weeks with your roommate that has the flu. Probably a good chance you are doomed to get sick. Plus, if you are stressed to the max and you are nutritionally starved, your chances are not good.

http://www.fs.fed.us/qoi/documents/2009/CWGA-zpfile000.pdf

The following is an excerpt from the Schommer/Woolever document linked above -

_Planned pen experiments that put captive bighorn sheep in contact with 
other species do not support the stress hypothesis. Foreyt (1992a, 1994) 
and Foreyt and Lagerquist (1996) conducted eight independent contact 
experiments involving bighorn sheep penned with: 1) elk, white-tailed deer, 
and mule deer; 2) elk alone; 3) domestic goats; 4) mountain goats; 5) llamas; 
6) cattle; 7) horses; and 8) steers. Of the 39 bighorn sheep tested in these 
experiments, only two died. One was an old female whose death was most 
likely due to a tooth abnormality that adversely affected her feeding ability. 
The other death was a bighorn sheep in the pen with the steers that died of 
pneumonia (Foreyt and Lagerquist 1996). These findings suggest that the 
presence of other species in pens itself is unlikely to lead to bighorn sheep 
deaths and that species other than domestic sheep are considerably less 
likely to transmit microbes fatal to bighorn sheep. This latter conclusion is 
consistent with a lack of historical observations or circumstantial data linking 
such species to bighorn sheep die-offs._

Uh oh...look who number 3 is??? And read the final sentence carefully. Lack of data...hmmmm....
So we close the forests to goats based on lack of data...now that makes sense...*NOT!* Bear in mind, we are talking about PACKGOATS. Not BRUSH GOATS used for weed control.


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