# Market Goats: What is this teaching our kids?



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I don't know how it is for everyone here, but this year at our state fair I honestly did not enjoy the market show as much as I had the past 2 years.
The show is in an arena, and the last 2 years we were stalled on the arena side, and it was fun. There was a family down from us that was drenching their goats with lord knows what. But overall we didn't see a whole lot of that going on around us, so that was good.

This year, we were stalled on the inside, main hallway next to some big show families. Massive amounts of drenching, farm hand helping and doing a lot of the work, goats being hidden under blankets so competition can't see them (they made this so obvious). There was so much that especially the adults were doing that I had to go outside and sit, I just couldn't watch anymore. 

There is so much 'seriousness' that goes into it, just watching these people act like this, and sort of 'showing off' it just takes the fun out of it. Yet, there are so many who are there just like us, to watch their kids show, have a good time, and make memories.

So what exactly does all of this teach the kids overall? Ridiculous amounts of drenching, expensive feeds & supplements, and aggressive handling of the animals is how you win, it's what you should strive for? That's what it's about?

What happened to raising a good market animal, and teaching the youth that what you put into it is what you eat when it's processed?! 
I just don't get how people spend thousands of dollars on a terminal animal, and sink a whole lot more into feeding it just for a ribbon. Why can't it be about teaching kids good ethics, clean meat, and trying to help the kids turn a profit on the animal at the end of the year so they can actually earn some of the $$ back? 
It shouldn't be all about ribbons, and trying to show off.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I went to my first goat show this year, and it wasn't quite as bad as your describing but there were still plenty of things similar like parents doing all the work (for all the animals that were there, state fair, not just goats).

The one that really got under my skin was this girl whose family had a goat or two in every class (I only seen the open class, not sure how the 4-H part of it went) and it was her and her mother with a goat each, in most classes. Anyway, she was a mean little thing. Constantly jerking her goats around, kicking them, and just being aggressively rough with them. But would consistently place in the top 2 for the most part. 

It wasn't like it was a one time deal watching her and it was done, she had one in every class and it was just constant. I never saw and reprimand or anything, I overheard other people commenting on it too throughout the day. Admittedly, her mother wasn't like that though and was showing all the ones she had, professionally...so not sure where her daughter was picking it up at.

I could definitely see how things could be how your describing though.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

AMEN I wish we could get back to old school 4-H. Let the rest be at open shows not 4-H shows.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear it's like that there. I've never been to a boer show... 

We do 4-H and ADGA shows with our dairy goats. The only complaint I've heard (or had) is the occasional gung-ho parent who "helps" their child fit their showmanship goat. But they are few and far between. I'm also not crazy about the practice of letting a doe's udder fill until she's miserably full and leaking just for a show. That might be good for "show" but it can't be good for the doe. We try to show our does full, but won't hesitate to relieve the pressure if they're getting uncomfortable.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I have never really watched the dairy goat show at our fair. But the judge this year was great. I thought it was kind of impressive he stopped the show and made everyone milk out before champion drive because the does looked to uncomfortable.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

What I think market shows teach kids? How NOT to feed a goat, how to sunburn a goat really well, how to make a goat get on ridiculous exercise machines, how to cause entero or acidosis or urinary calculi, how to raise a meat animal in the least efficient way possible...


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## NWIndianaBoers (Mar 18, 2013)

Ok i guess I'll play the devil's advocate here because who decides where the line should be drawn and what is fair vs unfair?

Having adults help at a show isn't a bad thing in my opinion. It allows the kids to relax after the months of hard work and enjoy the show since isn't enjoying it and having fun what it's about? I show up at the county fair the day of the pig show and do all i can to help my 2 cousins with getting the pigs ready to show, helping get them to the ring and back from the ring. Washing the show oils and sprays off of them after the show. Why do i do this? Because it makes the show day more fun for them when they can focus on what's going on inside the ring and knowing their family has their back outside of it. The 8 hrs of show day is the only time i help them with that project. Yet people probably see it and see them win and go home saying they don't do anything themselves when in fact they do most everything themselves(Just not on that one day)

The blankets are to keep the animal clean. Not to hide it from the competition though i mean yes it does that too but i would say in general the very top guys competing have been showing those animals multiple times and the competition they are worried about actually beating them has already seen it so no need to hide it, only to keep it clean up to the show.

Drenching- I only drench my breeding stock when i have to but what is so wrong with it? Everything that is in it is legal so what is wrong with giving it in a drench so you know that each individual goat is getting it's proper amount of it?

Yes it is serious but no more so than any higher level competition. The kids that go to state level spelling bee are pretty serious right? The ones that make it to state level basketball tournaments are serious and committed to trying to win? Why in livestock should the kids and families not be committed to winning?

Cost of feed and supplements is a tough argument too. Are you feeding the cheapest feed possible. Is any family feeding lower quality feed than you and saying you are spending too much? What is the magic number that's allowed?

As for what is spent on the project. Yes those families tend to spend 1-2k and then some more on a wether. Then a couple hundred is put into feed. For most of those like that though that wether is shown what a minimum of 5 times? and every single day the kids are out working with the animals and walking them and running them and cleaning up after them still learning plenty about the care of the animal. Maybe those families only have a little tiny space for animals at home and buying a wether is their only option. The fact that one family has 10 acres and a herd while another lives on a half acre and has to buy their animal every year isn't fair is it? Should no family be allowed to show one they have raised since some kids can't? What about families that can afford to buy a trailer when others have to put it in a crate in the back of a van or something, Isn't that unfair too? They are very limited on how many they bring so maybe all families should only be able to show 2 animals? 

There is no perfect way to do it but I wouldn't jump to too many conclusions about the kids and the work they put in at home and the level of joy they get out of it when it's over when you don't know them or their families personally.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well I'm seeing why parents do the fitting for their kids especially when it comes to the clippers. This is my sons first time showing other then peewee showmanship and we are doing independent so we are learning on our own. We get a kid to practice on and he gets one side and I get the other.....he's not touching his Doeling when it's her time lol and he even says this himself! His side looks like they have mange or something. But he needs to learn and we are lucky enough that we have the kids to keep going on so he will get it. But I'm sure to anyone looking in I'm doing it all because my kid is lazy or I have to butt in.
I get what Justin is saying about the expensive wethers and he does have a point there! But I know people here that they go out of their way to spend money because they want that ribbon. When I was in 4h I saw people with money do crazy things! One guy built a walk in fridge for his sons steer so it would stay cool, grow hair to fluff and gain more weight. Another guy would ship in these bull calfs from back east and cut them so his son would win. Then there was the parent that stood there screaming at his son because the steer didn't place well, the parents that would unplug our fans because there wasn't enough plug ins and their heifers are worth more then I could have ever dreamed of spending, so yeah there are those parents and did I mention my son is NOT in 4h but going independent? This should be a program that teaches our kids, basically to get ready for the adult world with livestock. I can see why city people are growing by the numbers and farms are being sold. It's frustrating and before my son got old enough to show I told him it's not always going to be fair (I guess it's like that in the adult world too lol) but you tie pride in what you do, you do the best you can and you will never do anything to compromise the health and well being of your animals. I know a lot of people do it but I disagree, but none of his animals will be on a train only diet. If someone wants to do that to for it! It's not my animal and I'll never tell anyone what they should and should t do with their animal but on my place that's a no no, I don't care if the kid is in last place every single time I'll take that over a vet bill or a death any day of the week. Really there's nothing anyone can do to change others way of doing things but how we teach our kids is something that we can do.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

If you don't lIke the shows then why are you showing?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Going out to buy a nice animal and feeding it a good feed isn't the problem. Spending more than $1,000 on a terminal market goat is just silly for a ribbon lol. But spending $10,000? Or even $5,000 to try and guarantee you are going to win? 
Making egg drenches or expensive home made drenches. Again, what is this teaching kids about these animals? You have to be in 4-H or FFA to show in youth classes in our state. 
When I say hiding the goat under the blanket, I mean HIDING the goat. You had to be there to understand it. The only time the goats were uncovered was right before show time, and they made sure a group of their people were around, and if any big competition walked by the goat was covered again.
Using hair gel on the legs, and a brush attached to an electric screw driver to fluff up the legs? I mean, the list goes on and on. 
Showing market animals isn't a profession, as soon as the kids out of high school this silliness is all over, and in the end, all they have are their ribbons...
That's where my problem is at. Sure, some of the kids might make it with scholarships.
I could understand if these weren't terminal animals, because breeding stock can be investments. 

As for fitting, if kids need help fitting their animals, I don't see why it's a problem if parents are helping or having to do it for them (so long as it's not a paid professional!). The rules even state the only person allowed to fit the animal is the youth, or parent. 
I remember last year, when a friend was stalled nearby the same group and someone other than youth/parent was fitting a goat....
Last year goats were even being led out to the trailer looking 'normal' and coming back looking 'buff' and completely different. 

Again, nothing wrong with showing a nice animal, but this is supposed to be about kids learning, raising and showing these animals isn't it? So again, I want to know.... what is this teaching our kids?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

IHEARTGOATS said:


> If you don't lIke the shows then why are you showing?


Nobody said I don't like the shows, I enjoy watching my kids show, I enjoy watching the other kids show, many whom we've become good friends with through the years. I love seeing kids I know work very hard succeed! and even those we don't know.

What does all of the stuff people are pumping into these goats teach our kids about goats, and their needs? I am not a know it all, and have a lot to learn myself about feeds, but I'm almost sure most of that stuff can't be good for the rumen.


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I don't show for many of the same reasons. I got turned off showing when I was more involved in horses (gah! Horse people... shudder!!) and I never wanted to return to a show ring.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

We were in our last year of 4H. We loved the shows, but things you describe go on everywhere. You will have families who always place well because they breed and show all year long, and yes it's tough when you only get a couple of wethers a year. Make it for YOUR child and what you believe the lesson and experience should be. I look at it as an opportunity to teach the values and lessons you want your kids to take away from the experience.
You will always have kids whose parents make it their personal goal to win, and it's nothing about the child. I've seen kids win who have NEVER touched, handled or even seen their animal until it comes to fair. 
Explain to them the things you and family are willing to do and not do and why. It becomes less about the placing and more about the experience and love of the animals. We did great this year in goats, but my son also loved swine and would never place well compared to others. He just loved doing it and didn't care. It's got to be more about what your child takes away from it, that a ribbon just won't substitute for - and yes, it IS hard to watch other kids win when they clearly have no investment. Celebrate your kids and how much they learned - even if others don't get it!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Sounds ridiculous to go to those extremes and sounds so unnatural for the animals  I agree with goatblessings...make it what you want them to take from it and explain why you feel the way you do about the others behavior, should they pay attention to it. 

And yes, I do enjoy a nice looking animal but I lean towards the more old fashioned way of living and that would include how you get your animal in condition to show too. A nice looking animal that has been force fed is not attractive to me...it's sad


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

goatblessings said:


> We were in our last year of 4H. We loved the shows, but things you describe go on everywhere. You will have families who always place well because they breed and show all year long, and yes it's tough when you only get a couple of wethers a year. Make it for YOUR child and what you believe the lesson and experience should be. I look at it as an opportunity to teach the values and lessons you want your kids to take away from the experience.
> You will always have kids whose parents make it their personal goal to win, and it's nothing about the child. I've seen kids win who have NEVER touched, handled or even seen their animal until it comes to fair.
> Explain to them the things you and family are willing to do and not do and why. It becomes less about the placing and more about the experience and love of the animals. We did great this year in goats, but my son also loved swine and would never place well compared to others. He just loved doing it and didn't care. It's got to be more about what your child takes away from it, that a ribbon just won't substitute for - and yes, it IS hard to watch other kids win when they clearly have no investment. Celebrate your kids and how much they learned - even if others don't get it!


These are words of wisdom right here and you are very correct. Like I said we are trying to teach our kids about the real world when we put them in 4h and ffa and I guess when you think about it that is how the real world is in the adult way as well. There's always going to be someone out there that does things that you don't agree with, things that you don't find as important as they do and ones that get ahead in life because who they are or who they know. It's actually a great way to show our kids examples of what we as parents agree with a do not agree with. When I did my steers they were home grown. We were not rich and I did the steers out of MY cows. I never won, I was never last either but I took pride in my animals and I knew I worked hard for whatever place I got. But at the end I made enough money to buy my own car, the kid that had the steer shipped in I'm sure his daddy bought his car not his ribbon. Now don't get me wrong I would have been over the moon if I ever won and I was tickled I didn't come in last. So even though I never won I think I got a lot out of it. Still having my kids do independent though lol


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree, great advice  That's exactly what we do. It's always thrilling when they place, and get a ribbon, but we don't have any expectations, and also no jealousy for those that win.
Our goal as a family is to do the best we can with what we have, and try our best to put a healthy animal into the food system. My daughter sold one of her wethers at the state fair, and she's never put one on the truck, it took a lot for her to do that, he was her baby (bottle baby that she raised), that to me, for her to do that is bigger than any place or ribbon. That was a huge, brave, yet heartbreaking achievement. She's only 9 years old. I couldn't watch her turn the goat over, I would have burst into tears. Although, there weren't very many dry eyes in that line.

I think doing little things here and there to try to increase your chances of doing well, especially if you have a good animal are fine. But some of this stuff was just...outrageous, and I think a few things were beyond show rules. 

I will say, that one of the families we adore, I know they work their butt off, we've been to their barn, I adore their child, who is so very nice and always stops to talk to others. Their goat did make it to the final drive. I don't know if it was their homebred goat (who was a flush) or the one they spend a LOT of $$ on. I know they won last year with a wether we were told by others that cost around $10,000. 
The ones across from us that we saw doing this, didn't have a grand champion or even a class win this year. But last year had a wether that was a champion and also upward of $10,000, so I can only imagine what the one cost them again this year. 

The things I love about the show? Some of the counties have a lot of kids involved, one county had over 20 kids in their 'goat club.' Each pen had a goat wooden cut out that had the goats name on it, they decorated the wall, had I believe the kids names, and everyone did a pitch in on breakfast/lunch/dinner, so it was a buffet. They helped each other, and overall it was a great sight to see.
Another group did something similar, they were just a smaller club. Some of the posters, and how proud the kids were of their animals, it was heartwarming.

Our county, we only have a livestock club, and my 3 kids are the only ones who show goats! So we are a bit envious of the counties that have a lot of participants. My kids have always had to learn on their own. 
My kids prefer to show breeding stock. It's much more fun and laid back IMO. Of course then you get into the issues of overweight animals, under bred and over flushed does, etc. etc. lol but it's still fun.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Keep that great attitude!!! Yes, we did well this year, but only after many years of breeding, culling, etc. We don't keep many goats, and we are definitely NOT spending that kind of money, but with what we produced, my son and our clients placed Grand, Grand Reserve, 4 firsts and one second out of 9 goats shown. So a nice year. My son's (and my) objective is to make money, not to spend money on a ribbon. The health and overall conformation and appearance of your animals WITHOUT going to extremes speaks for itself. I now have a lot of clients who want a moderately priced animal for a well bred competitive animal. I don't pretend to be a national show barn, but keep to competitive 4-H, open and sometimes higher animals, always trying to improve breeding but in a natural way. Works for us - Enjoy what you have earned, your animals and all the things you know already in what it teaches your children.
BIG CONGRATS! LOVE the 4-H kids who are invested, learning, and truly love their animals. Nothing better than this! You are a GREAT example to your kids.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All great views on the subject.

Competition mode is ridicules I agree. It makes it very awkward and hard for the honest and sincere breeder who just wants a fair competition. 

Some goats may die or become ill getting them to show shape. 
I have seen through the years, as I know some of you have noticed as well. Top ennobled goats have died very young, from too much fat ect of all the feed being poured into these goats throughout the years. It is a shame these beautiful breeding goats are no longer with us, but instead, we are buying sperm from that breeder who thankfully collected. 
I rather have a goat for many years healthy, getting offspring for a longer period of time, then to show and lose them before their time as some do out there sadly. Just my opinion but if someone wants to do so then, I will not say it isn't right for them. It just isn't right for me. 

Some take it way too far just to win. 
Breeders who are getting started in showing have no idea what they were going up against, and surprised when seeing results from high power feeds and other means to win that ribbon, they are kinda cut down a peg and cannot compete well. Spending that kind of money seems redundant, goes nowhere with market goats. A ribbon is not worth much in the end to me. Although, it may get the word out that breeder has a winner, but from that winner we cannot buy any offspring from that goat. He only gets put into a freezer by someone. With market goats it seemed a bit off, if you think about it. 

If this was breeding stock, that may be another story, ennoblement and showing off what they have for future offspring. 

I don't get it either, why teach human kids greed and wanting that win no matter what. Scratching, clawing, being too good for anyone (snobby). 

It is suppose to be enjoyable, especially after all that hard work prior and preparing to get to the show, should be rewarded, not scrutinized because they didn't put in enough money for that win. Teaching children respect and honest hard work in my opinion the best way to go. No matter the cost. But how things are now, it s so ridiculous and so hard to teach them the true way as it should be.


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## crazygoatlady_inthemaking (Apr 25, 2014)

People drench their goats for different reasons we do it hourly with electrolytes only because out goats won't drink the city water at shows and it helps them not be too stressed. Our goats wear blankets because we washed them the day before and we don't want them to get dirty. They stay in blankets 24/7 at home. You have to do what you have to do to win.

Also, It actually teaches the kids more than the old way. Before my daughter would never go out to the barn unless we were going to walk goats. She hated it because she never won and we never did a lot with our goats. She has to go out there every hour some days to drench them or work them and she has learned more from it. She works harder because she knows if she does it she will win. And it's not all about winning in life, but she is very competitive and she strives to win. It teaches her that working hard with win her a prize.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

crazygoatlady_inthemaking said:


> People drench their goats for different reasons we do it hourly with electrolytes only because out goats won't drink the city water at shows and it helps them not be too stressed. Our goats wear blankets because we washed them the day before and we don't want them to get dirty. They stay in blankets 24/7 at home. You have to do what you have to do to win.
> 
> Also, It actually teaches the kids more than the old way. Before my daughter would never go out to the barn unless we were going to walk goats. She hated it because she never won and we never did a lot with our goats. She has to go out there every hour some days to drench them or work them and she has learned more from it. She works harder because she knows if she does it she will win. And it's not all about winning in life, but she is very competitive and she strives to win. It teaches her that working hard with win her a prize.


I don't disagree with drenching electrolytes, I'd do it too if our goats don't drink, but the stuff we seen clearly wasn't electrolytes (color, consistency, refrigeration, etc.). 
The blanket thing - lots of goats wear blankets, just the way the folks were acting, especially if big competition were around, one of those things you just had to be there to understand I guess.

There is nothing wrong with working hard to try and win, but for those doing this and that to their goats, putting who knows what into their bodies, it just leads back to my question of, What does this teach our kids?
Again, not talking about electrolytes, or things that are 'good' for goats. 
Last year, I remember a very honest person telling me they were stalled near the doors closest to the trailer lot, and people were leading their goats down to a trailer (which they are NOT supposed to leave the building once they arrive, unless to be washed at wash racks or just walked around near the racks for exercise). The goats looked average, but when they came back they looked big, hard muscled - solid on the move. This is the stuff that bothers me. No way that was natural.

This year my kids wethers aren't good show animals, but we were okay with that, their stories and struggles make them more special than ribbons. 
However, if my kids had competitive wethers, we'd look into higher quality feed, and maybe a good top dress or supplement, but that would be about it. I'm sure we'd drench with electrolytes, but I want to try and keep them healthy, and natural, so when they are sold, we know they are going to someone's dinner table as a safe, naturally fed meat.


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## crazygoatlady_inthemaking (Apr 25, 2014)

HoosierShadow said:


> I don't disagree with drenching electrolytes, I'd do it too if our goats don't drink, but the stuff we seen clearly wasn't electrolytes (color, consistency, refrigeration, etc.).
> The blanket thing - lots of goats wear blankets, just the way the folks were acting, especially if big competition were around, one of those things you just had to be there to understand I guess.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with working hard to try and win, but for those doing this and that to their goats, putting who knows what into their bodies, it just leads back to my question of, What does this teach our kids?
> ...


I understand what you are saying. We add egg white to electrolytes the day of the show for extra muscle expression. Anything just to get an edge over others


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