# Pygmy/ND Cross Questions



## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm going to look at a blue eyed doe tomorrow. She is bred to a blue eyed ND buck. The current owner thinks she is either a Nigerian Dwarf or a ND x Pygmy.
I know blue eyes are a disqualifying fault in Pygmy goats, but is there any way I can tell if she is a cross or not?
I really want to move away from crossbred animals, so buying one is counterintuitive to that fact.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

The only way to know for sure is to buy a registered goat. Anything without papers can't be proven one way or another. And trying to tell the difference between a pygmy and ND is impossible to me. Maybe those that raise registered animals can tell the difference, but I sure can't.


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

There may be a difference in conformation, but then again there may not be. It just depends on the goat.

It's true though that the only way you will know for sure is if it's registered. If you really only want purebreds I would pass for something registered.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I do want purebreds, but I have a crappy time finding registered goats that I'm even willing to consider purchasing. Our goat market is crappy IMO. The nicer looking animals around here tend to be not registered offspring from registered parents, with no way to find the #'s or get service memo's or anything identifying on the kids to prove it.

I need to go on a road trip I guess!


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Also, every time I try to contact a registered breeder in my state, they ignore my emails and phone calls or tell me that there's no kids available, to try again next year and hang up. Goats are a fad here, no one takes them seriously, thinks they're disgusting and you wouldn't BELIEVE the amount of mistreated goats of all breeds here. It's hard to find any with good breeding that was raised properly. Especially ND's, which is why I started to move away from them, but I really don't like not being able to simply pick up the goat if there's an emergency and other things like that. :/


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

What State are you in? Maybe someone on here can help you find some that aren't too far away


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I live in Maine. I'm willing to travel as far south as Florida and As far west as Illinois. I won't go any further south west than Kentucky or Tennesee though. Basically anywhere I can get in about 24 hours of driving. Also I have to find someone that has a vet, but that seems easy if they're registered. C


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

That's disappointing.  

There are a lot of good breeders all down the east coast. There's phoenix Rising in MA, End of the Line in NJ, Freedom Star Farm also in NJ, Little Tots in Georgia, Old South in Alabama. I myself am located in MD.

This is can be hard time of year to shop at because a lot of big name farms have waiting lists, but there are still plenty of goats out there.


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

GroundGoats said:


> I live in Maine. I'm willing to travel as far south as Florida and As far west as Illinois. I won't go any further south west than Kentucky or Tennesee though. Basically anywhere I can get in about 24 hours of driving. Also I have to find someone that has a vet, but that seems easy if they're registered. C


With that range, you will definitely find some great goats. I doubt you'd have to go that far to find them, too. Though getting a few kids shipped to you (some great breeders do ship kids, like Karen Las of Pelican Acres occasionally does ship goats through Delta airlines) might cost less than all that travel (gas, hotel, food, time), if you can't find what you are looking for in your area. Usually two kids can go in one crate.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

ciwheeles said:


> That's disappointing.
> 
> There are a lot of good breeders all down the east coast. There's phoenix Rising in MA, End of the Line in NJ, Freedom Star Farm also in NJ, Little Tots in Georgia, Old South in Alabama. I myself am located in MD.
> 
> This is can be hard time of year to shop at because a lot of big name farms have waiting lists, but there are still plenty of goats out there.


I'm not necessarily looking for big name goats.
I would like a few older does with decent conformation in need of improvement, okay milk production that I can also improve upon, with flashy colors.
They have to have solid, very correct feet and I would like to find ones with decent parasite resistance. 
I'm a sucker for blue eyes!
I honestly want well taken care of girls that need a new farm to be at to start with. 
For a buck, I would prefer to raise him here, even get studs for the girls and keep the bucks to raise, pick the best to keep.

I read somewhere that it takes a real goat lover to keep a buck, a fanatic to keep more than 1...
I must be crazy because I love having bucks around, my current sire is just so sweet, never aggressive. 
I don't even care how gross they are! We tell people not to touch their faces anyway so they don't learn to butt.
We plan on always having at least 3 bucks per breed, so that we have 3 super correct bucks that can improve different faults and we can do our own line breeding.

I am so rambling right now...


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm In Indiana and have registered kids due any day. I also know a ton of reputable breeders in my area...fairland farm ( www.fairlandfarm.com) , twin willows farm http://www.twinwillowsfarm.net/ (northern indiana)...Helmstead miniature goats in southern Indiana http://www.helmsteadstables.com/Goats.htm ... Kate does the most thorough job testing her herd with fecals for johnes and CAE bloodwork.... also Sycamore Springs in northern Kentucky. My herd is Naptown Nigerians at www.indygoats.webs.com. I have these other breeders listed on my website. Also, rusty repp at lil tots estate http://littletotsestate.com/ is a ND judge for NDGA and ADGA and is VERY helpful....


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Also have a good friend who is MOVING to maine in March and might be able to transport from Indy...


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Oh!
That would be so perfect!
What part of the state?
I would really like to pick a few farms and visit if I'm able, but I'm not opposed to reviewing pictures and getting opinions online.
Thanks so much for the links!


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

I may be letting go of one of my blue eyed does, but it wouldn't be till after she kids and weans her kids in June. She's got decent confirmation and good lines. Mom was an 85 and dad was an 82 in a L/A. She's registered with ADGA.

Another good place to search for goats is on Fbook. There are a lot of goat sale groups.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Indianapolis, IN. I have also bought a goat from ohio...inclovernigerians...small hers but www.inclovernigerians.webs.com she's got blue eyed and color. My blue eyed ones aren't registered, but I have polled and moonspots coming. Helmstead Minis in southern Indiana has the most kids around...something like 10 available right now...all kinds, GREAT genetics.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

I'm in Rock Hill, SC! You could get on my reservation list, I have purebred registered NDs!
You would be #15.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Stacykins said:


> With that range, you will definitely find some great goats. I doubt you'd have to go that far to find them, too. Though getting a few kids shipped to you (some great breeders do ship kids, like Karen Las of Pelican Acres occasionally does ship goats through Delta airlines) might cost less than all that travel (gas, hotel, food, time), if you can't find what you are looking for in your area. Usually two kids can go in one crate.


I checked out Karen's herd. She's currently downsizing actually.
There's a couple I would really love to have, but I don't know about shipping an adult goat, let alone one with kids.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I meant what part of Maine, Erin 
I looked at your website too, and I like your does. We want to wait until March or so to get new goats.

Ciwheeles, would that be Wildfire?
I really love her color! And Dulcelatte too! 
I didn't see any pictures for the buck though, maybe I'm just challenged...

I'll check out Helmstead too.


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

Wildfire is one, but the other with blue eyes is named Karamel. Dolce already has a family that wants her unless she doesn't have a girl. 

The father is on my for sale page. He has nice milking lines, but I'm moving towards more show lines.  

Helmstead minis does have some really nice goats. One of my herd sires is from there.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Blue eyes don't exist in the pygmy breed, so yes, they are nigerians or a cross of some sort. 

If you want purebred, then don't settle for less. You can find nice papered does for a fair price right now. Just take your time. Too bad you're not closer, i've got a bunch for sale at giveaway prices.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Could you PM me with your prices?
I was kind of interested in one of Dolce's kids.
And I'll have to check out that buck. I'd like to replace my current buck first, since I may be able to find/get my does papers. 
I really love the kids she throws, I've seen kids from all 3 freshening, as adults too. Nice looking does when paired with good dairy bucks.

I liked Helmstead Mini's Night Watch, buck kid just born.

I was just informed that I am not allowed to have any more ND's until I find my OH a pair Boers. Hmm... Lol, so much for keeping it small.


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

I'll PM you with the prices.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

KW Farms said:


> Blue eyes don't exist in the pygmy breed, so yes, they are nigerians or a cross of some sort.
> 
> If you want purebred, then don't settle for less. You can find nice papered does for a fair price right now. Just take your time. Too bad you're not closer, i've got a bunch for sale at giveaway prices.


Yeah, WA is a ways.
You wouldn't ship, would you?

I posted another thread asking about getting papers for goats that have papered parents, asking about bloodtyping.
My buck has papered parents, but the lady didn't want to register her bucks and we originally bought him as a pet so didn't care.
My doe has papers, but I lost them


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

LibertyHomesteadFarm said:


> I'm in Rock Hill, SC! You could get on my reservation list, I have purebred registered NDs!
> You would be #15.


Like I said you could get a kid from me.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

There are ALOT of breeders in your neck of the woods and travel time would be minimal too. I currently have one doeling available and 2 more does due in the next 10 days as well as one I hope is settled and due in mid April


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

LibertyHomesteadFarm said:


> Like I said you could get a kid from me.


You have 15 people waiting, 10 does, only 5 litters will be purebred ND's, how many waiting want purebred does?
All 15? Unless you have a miracle, I'm SOL.
That's epic that you have a waiting list of 15 after only 3 years of breeding, in my opinion.

I'd also like an adult doe, preferably experienced with kidding.
I guess I didn't mention that.

I'm looking at Tiny Angels again.
I had thought they stopped breeding a couple years ago, but it looks like they're breeding again.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I do really like your buck though!


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

kccjer said:


> The only way to know for sure is to buy a registered goat. Anything without papers can't be proven one way or another. And trying to tell the difference between a pygmy and ND is impossible to me. Maybe those that raise registered animals can tell the difference, but I sure can't.


I can tell a huge difference between them


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I had a Pygmy doe that looked more dairy like than my ND doe...
I can somewhat tell the difference, but I don't know about a cross.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I raise both registered nigerians and "pygerians" and can tell difference between purebred and crossbred, one big thing that stands out is the heavy bones of a pygmy that and the length of the canon... distance between knee and hoof, that bone is short and thick with a pygmy 
Color pattern is usually a good indicator too... MOST purebred pygmy's have an Agouti pattern, normally varied shades of gray with a darker dorsal, dark legs and dark facial lines...these are usually black on a gray agouti pattern, a lighter variance is a carmel and can be a cocoa brown to a peachy tan with dark markings, solid black and brown pygmies usually have frosted ears and nose.
I have 3 "pygerians" here... Angel is solid white and very thick in body and bone, Heidi is a variance of a medium carmel and also thick... Teddy is more colorful with coat and has a heavy bone and each have heavy hooves, my nigerians have a more dainty hoof and finer bone. And pygmies do not have blue eyes... if they do then they were likely the result of a cross with fainter or nigerian that had them.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Nice, thanks so much Liz!
Do they have blockier heads too?
Are the horns different with ND than a Pymgy if they have them?


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

GroundGoats said:


> You have 15 people waiting, 10 does, only 5 litters will be purebred ND's, how many waiting want purebred does?
> All 15? Unless you have a miracle, I'm SOL.
> That's epic that you have a waiting list of 15 after only 3 years of breeding, in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Most of those people want wethers, and my average is triplets! LOL


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I feel weird about traveling a great distance with a baby and no mom. :/

I might be getting my doe's papers!
*happy dance*


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