# Pyrenees adolescent behavior issues



## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

Our just turned 1 yr old male Pyrenees (Olaf) has been living with our bucks (3 adult NDs) for about three months. Everything went better than expected, and we started leaving him with the bucks all day. At night, the goats are all locked in and he and our other LGD (who is with the does all day) have the run of the fields. 

About a month ago we added our buckling (now 9 months old) and his wether buddy to the big boy buck pen. At first Olaf tried to play with the wether and buckling when we first put them in with the older guys, but he knocked it off after the initial excitement. He’s been out all day with them since. Two days ago I heard the buckling screaming. Olaf had him rolled on his back, trying to play with him. I got Olaf out of there and the buckling up (he was a little shaken but ok). Tonight he was in with them again and I heard the buckling screaming again (was at the barn both times). Olaf had him down and had a hold of his rear leg. I ran in there and chased Olaf out, scolding him. It looked like he was playing but it certainly not acceptable as my poor buckling was quite shook up. The buckling was also muddy on his sides, so I assume Olaf rolled him before I got there. 

I’m trying to figure out how to manage this situation. These are the options I can think of: 

1. Olaf lives in the front field and not with the goats at all until he stops being a juvenile jerk. Downside is he will be bored and dig up the field as it is a much smaller space. Also, he’s not with the goats. He may also get bored and try to challenge the fence, though he’s pretty respectful of the electric. Upside is he can’t hurt anyone. 

2. Try to set up shelter and a run for the buckling and move him and the wether to their own area, leaving Olaf with the adult bucks who don’t put up with his nonsense. Downside is we don’t really have the area for that right now (converted the buildings to chickens), the fencing where we’d put them isn’t as secure, and the buckling wouldn’t get to be with the big bucks. Upside is Olaf gets to still be with goats, but ones big and strong enough to defend themselves from his unwanted advances. 

3. Get an anti-mating apron and put the buckling in with the does. Downside is if the apron doesn’t work the outcome could be bad (8 hopefully pregnant does due between March and June, plus 3 doelings too small to breed yet). The does are also going to beat him up pretty good to initiate him into the herd. Upside is he’ll get to stay with a herd and Olaf can’t get him. It’s also the easiest on us management wise. 

So which option would you go with? I know LGDs are pretty worthless until they’re about 18 months old, which he will be this summer. He was doing so well, I’m not sure what prompted him to start acting like a puppy jerk. Maybe I should get my buckling one of those spikey dog collars so if Olaf tries to grab him he’d get a mouth full of spikes (just kidding).


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I think you will have to do what works best for you. If one way doesn't work, try another one.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

I may actually put the buckling and wether in the front field during the day, where they can access shelter through the dog house/barn set up we have (was meant for the dogs) and put Olaf with the big bucks during the day still. I am going to order the Bacchus apron too, in case I need to put him with the girls. 

For today, Olaf is restricted to the front field. My buckling was acting normal this morning, so hopefully not too traumatized.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

Can you put the dog on a long tie-out in the pen with your little buck? That's what I'm doing with my 8 month old pyr puppy when I can't watch him. It's not ideal, but he's in with the goats but they can still get away from him if they need to. 

When I am home, I let my puppy off the tie out and watch him closely...if I catch him chasing the goats, I run into the yard yelling, pin him down and tell him what a bad bad dog he is, yelling the whole time, and do my absolute best to make him think I'm going to bring the wrath of heaven down on his worthless little puppy head. It sounds harsh, but it's usually pretty effective. 

I'm not sure if it's the individual dogs, or if the sexes are always this way, but I've found that my male is much more immature and much less responsive to training than my female was at his age. Good luck!


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

I’ll talk to my husband about a long tie out, I could move his dog house in so he would still have shelter. Thanks for the idea! 

I don’t know if I could pin him down successfully, he’s a big puppy and I’d hate to lose. He is super sensitive though, so when you tell him he’s bad he takes it to heart (for the moment).


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Shock collar and supervision right away. 
Make sure it is touching the skin really good with the shock points.
Say a stern "NO!" and shock the dog when the dog even begins to get close and tries to think about playing with the goat. 
You need to nip this in the bud now.

Never allow the LGD to play with any goat, it always gets out of hand. 

What is happening, is, the buckling starts running from the dog, the dogs instinct is to chase, the excitement gets elevated and the dog nips the goat heals and may pen the goat, causing more damage. 
You are lucky so far, the goat has not been mangled. But it will happen eventually or the goat will be killed. 

When you cannot watch the dog, separate the dog from the goats.

Just having the LGD on a line, will make things worse and more anxiety.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> Shock collar and supervision right away.
> Make sure it is touching the skin really good with the shock points.
> Say a stern "NO!" and shock the dog when the dog even begins to get close and tries to think about playing with the goat.
> You need to nip this in the bud now.
> ...


Should Olaf be kept separate from the big bucks too until this is resolved when we're not there to supervise?

He definitely respects the electric fence, I'll look into a shock collar for him. The last thing I want is anyone to get hurt and/or a LGD that is untrustworthy with the goats.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If the big bucks have put him in his place, that may be OK, but of course there is risk. So use your best judgement.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

Remote shock collar ordered and should be here Friday. I’ll update on how it goes. Until then we’ll probably keep him separate to be safe.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> Just having the LGD on a line, will make things worse and more anxiety.


I have to respectfully disagree! By having the dog on a line, the goats get used to the dog and are less flighty and nervous around him. The dog gets used to being with the goats and seeing them bounce around but is unable to chase them, so becomes desensitized to it. Additionally, being with the goats becomes the norm, so he's less likely to associate goat time with playtime.

This is of course assuming that it is a LGD breed and is otherwise well behaved, just one that has the occasional slip-up. I'd never suggest it for something like a herding dog that's going to be excitable all the time. 
I trained my female this way and she's fantastic. I'm using this method with my male now, and am seeing big improvements over previously when I'd had him separated from the goats entirely when unsupervised.

That said, every dog and every situation is different, and you have to do what you feel comfortable with.










(And since this thread doesn't have enough pictures, here's my girl last year keeping watch over a doe who had just delivered.)


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## alicejane (Jan 15, 2014)

Well, as one said do what works for you. But it is your dog attitude that matters. He may be too tramatised to be succesful. If it is possible to be tied off. Could the goat get trapped by him while tied. I think putting him in an attached pen to the goats. Or in his own dog pen. I would remove him from pen untail more mature.
I love my dog but he is a big horse of a dog.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

He’s currently got part of the barn right next to the bucks (separated by a gate and cattle panel) and is in the front pasture next to them. Hopefully my shock collar gets here today and I can trial it tomorrow. I’m pretty sure he’ll respect it as long as I can get the electrodes to skin through his thick winter coat. May have to break out the clippers.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

(thumbup)

Good luck.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

Out here in the buck pen now with Olaf and the bucks. I think his coat is too thick for the electrodes to work, even after trimming his hair with scissors. I need to get my clippers out but will need assistance to hold him. What does work is the vibrate function. He does not like it. His approaches have been playful/mischievous but I’m not ok with that from him. He’s even trying to play with one of my big bucks, so I won’t be leaving him with them unsupervised either. My alpha buck Fleece has no problem nailing him, but I just watched him trying to play with Slate and Slate trying to run away. Now Olaf doesn’t want to go near Slate after getting buzzed. 

I’ll probably hang out here for another hour. Olaf is sulking outside since he got vibrated, while the goats are eating hay inside. Also, my buckling Tanner doesn’t seem to have any lasting trauma from Olaf, so that is good. 

Any thoughts on when I will know I can trust him to be with them again? Definitely don’t want anyone getting hurt.


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## alicejane (Jan 15, 2014)

Well, I know they say at least 2 years of age before
They quit needing to play. I know I went thru chew water hoses, anything fun to chew on. They seem to
Take that long to mature. I had mine in as a puppy.
But I had trouble teaching him control with the babies.
As he wanted to play with them. Thankfully he never
Hurt them too much as he was little then.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You have to be right on it, when he even thinks about it. 
It depends on the dog on how long it will take to get it into his head, that that is not acceptable. 

Be sure to say a stern "NO~!" when you buzz him.
So if you do not have the buzzer on him and he doesn't need it anymore, he will associate the word when you yell it out at him, if he is doing something not allowed. For a quick correction.
I cannot give you a time frame, sorry.  Good luck.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

He still very much plays and chews on things. All of the rubber feed trays have teeth marks, and we can’t leave them laying around or he’ll run off with them. 

One thing in my favor is he is super sensitive. One time my husband was working near the fence and accidentally got shocked. Olaf was touching him when it happened and got shocked so he wouldn’t get near my husband for over 2 weeks. 

My plan right now is to work with him every evening with the collar and bucks. I wish I could do it more frequently, but we both work full time and have two young human kids that require a lot of attention. I won’t be letting him unsupervised with the goats for a while.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Teach him not to chew up the bowels. 
With the shocker.
Tell him what is OK and what is not.
What you can do is, give him a super big chew toy for big dogs. 
It may keep his chewing entertained.

If he is young, it can take up to 2 years old, before he is mature enough in the head. 
How old is he?


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

He just turned a year in January. We give him bones. The chewing on things is when we’re not around. He doesn’t do it in front of us. We usually remove things out of his reach. 

I’ll try getting him more chew toys. Going to go out later and put him with the goats again supervised. I know this is all puppy behavior, he’s just our first LGD so it is all new territory. I’m used to herding breeds, totally different animal.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Hi I have Anatolian Shepherds. I have 1 male & 1 female. They are both 18 months old. My male is so challenging to me. He is huge..and very playful. My female is 100% working the goats.
I was told no toys. That promotes play.
I had to be the alpha dog. Because his problem was me. I was not dominating him. When I correct him. I have to open hand, push him down. Then stand over him. And say No. Keeping my open hand on his neck. The open hand is like his mamas mouth. Standing over him..means he is to follow you. You are the alpha!.It took about 2 full weeks of me following him & my goats. I felt like I was super mean to him. The poor guy got to where I would walk out...and point my finger to him..and he would freeze. ( my kidds are soo grateful). I would walk out to him. And he would sit and wait for me. It was a wonderful feeling to say GOOD BOY! 
Today Savaski is watching over 8 does, 11 kidds. And I dont worry at all. He actually lays down, and the kidds walk on him, jump over his tail, cuddle up and sleep with him.
So dont give up. You are in the right path. You know him. And you are getting ideas. Best wishes to you! Hope you fi nd the right training


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

Thanks for the input! I don't think this is a dominance issue, we got that settled a while ago. How are the Anatolians temperament wise? Olaf is very sweet but his digging is driving me crazy.

Today I had him in with the bucks three different times. Time one he tried to play with the buckling and another buck. Got buzzed both times, which he did not like. I took him out of their area after he sulked for a while outside on his own. Time two he ignored the bucks and buckling in the stall. When I walked outside, everyone followed. Slate started running and Olaf went to chase (a little halfway play chase, not like a dog locking onto prey) and got buzzed. He then went to sulk. The third time I brought him in, he ignored all the goats and just went to lay down at the end of the stall (it's a large area, about 30'x12'). I was encouraged by his behavior this third time, so I decided to see how he would do in with the does.

Our other LGD (trained when we got her and fantastic with the goats) is in with the girls. Olaf went to say hi to her (she is his girlfriend, they're together at night) then decided to try to chase a goat. He got buzzed, and tucked his tail and ran off. After that he didn't try to approach the girls again, just did his perimeter patrols.

He's been sulky all day, he does not like being buzzed, but I'm thinking it's effective so far. Going to put him in with the boys one more time tonight, and probably do the same tomorrow.

Also found where he's trying to dig under the fence since he's bored in the front pasture. Now he's got new hotwire strung up low on the fence. He tries to dig under again and he won't do it anymore (it's a big shock, have accidentally hit it a couple of times).

Here is Olaf:


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Savaski is a really smart good boy. Thats his problem. Lol. I thought I had the dominance down also...but a trainer said nope. So I did as they suggested. And Savaski is sooooo much better. 
His temperment is laid back. He has been aggressive to a dog that hit the fence next to my birthing barn. And Savaski charged the dog...he showed teeth and hackled...I was very proud of him that day! 1st time I have seen that from him. He tends to be lazy..waits till goats are far away, then he trots after them. But he is better...very loving..and yes He is still.young..& goofy...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Keep up the good work, the dog will get it in his head, it is not acceptable behavior.
Being 1 year old, he is still a pup in the head. 
Having chew toys is OK, they do need something to do. 
It does not make things worse, I have a Akbash, we raised from a pup and trained. LGP's are a lot of work, but there is a reward when all said and done.

We had a Anatolian prior, he died at a very old age and dearly missed.
Was very good natured and loving dog to the goats and goat kids. Would lay close, but a little distance away to the does when they kidded and cleaned up the kidding mess.
After I moved the doe and her kids to a bonding pen.
He watched out for them. 
He would allow the kids to play on him.

Here is a link below, to the dogs I have and had. You will see how my Akbash was around kids, Enjoy. 

http://tothboergoats.com/Fun Working Dogs pics.htm


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

You both have beautiful pups! I’ll have to check out both the Anatolian and Akbash when we’re in the market for another LGD. The photos of your Akbash with the kids are precious!

Olaf did really well this morning. I let him in with the does first and he went bounding into their stall and got buzzed. Swiftly tucked his tail and went outside. The girls all came outside and were frisky with all of the wind. They started running and he started to pursue and got buzzed. Backed off immediately. After that he left them alone. Then we went to feed the bucks. He totally left them alone. The most he did was go sniff them, but no trying to chase or play at all, even when they ran off. 

After that I took him with me back to the doe side. I had to run some fencing supplies to my husband at the edge of the field. I left him near them (in sight and in range). He looked like he was thinking about chasing them but didn’t when they ran by. Then one of my senior does reared up at him and he got excited (tail wagging) and looked like he wanted to play so he got buzzed. He backed right off and went to mind his own business. 

I am very happy with how he is responding. You can see him thinking about it now. Several times his interest has been piqued but he doesn’t do anything. I’m trying to praise him when he’s being good. Right now he’s in the big hillside field with his girlfriend for a change of scenery today. Don’t want him getting too bored up front. 

Thanks again for all the help! I’ll probably keep updating just to help myself keep track of what works.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

So good to hear.

Sounds like the corrections are going into the right direction.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

So far so good. Had him in with the boys for several hours yesterday. Only had to buzz him once when the wether and buckling started running and Olaf perked up and looked like he was thinking about chasing them. Otherwise he was great. 

Also took him in with the girls. He really doesn’t want anything to do with being in their stall, and they get all bowed up at him when he comes in, so I locked him in there with the does and me just to see what he would do. He was very good, just hung out by me or the gate. Didn’t try to mess with them and when one doe approached him and reared up he just stepped back and looked at me. 

Hoping he continues on this path. Also, can’t wait for the puppy/adolescent stage to be done!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:great::goodjob:


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

Just to update, Olaf has grown up and is now doing fantastic. He’s out all day with the bucks and does not chase or try to play with them. He’s come in a couple of times with the does and their kids. The does run away and he does not chase. He’s been very gentle with the kids, just sniffing them. I’m very happy he seems to have grown up and he’s fantastic now.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:coolmovesdance):goodjob:


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

AWESOME!!! So glad Olaf worked out. You did :great:!


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