# Herd Conformation



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ok I'm looking for a conformation critique on my whole herd.
Dairy goats, I'm not showing or anything, but I want to breed good quality goats and I'd like to know who has what faults and strong points so I can make good breeding decisions.

I'm in New Zealand, we have a small gene pool in goats so it is entirely possible that the general population is not up to your normal standard.

I've also not much idea about conformation at all, so bear in mind any points such as bad photos, stance or ground, and ask for more if necessary.

PS ... we're going through a drought here and feed quality is very bad indeed, as well as mineral and parasite problems that I've nearly got under control ... so condition on some of them may not be ideal, but I'm working on it! I'm hoping you can look past the odd rough coat or underweight goat and tell me the quality of the foundation I have to build on so to speak.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

First goat.

My 'best', as in only pedigree registered goat, is my main herd sire, Bernie. He is a British Alpine buck, two years old.

He has good conformation (and awesome milking) records in his pedigree, but is rather heavily inbred, and he was set back in his first year due to a lack of copper, and I don't know how much that may have affected his conformation.

He's just put on a growth spurt and filled out some after I gave him copper, but he's still got a way to go before he's really mature - he's still a bit gangly I think.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Looks like he's got potential - his rump is long, although steep, and I think he'll be pretty uphill when he's mature. His chine looks rather weak and the hind legs are almost TOO angled for my taste. Rump may or may not level out as he grows. I definitely think he'll look better with a couple years and some better nutrition, just can't say exactly how much he'll improve and where.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ok nothing horribly unexpected there *phew* ... the chine is a bit of a puzzle to me, the other B. alpines I've seen have that swayback look to varying degrees as well ... even the top studs have a more horsey-shaped back.

I wonder whether the rump angle is also similar, I've never seen a goat with what photos describe as a 'level rump' here.

I also expected there to be a fault with his back legs ... I've always thought they looked weak ... but I wasn't sure why, not having much of an idea on conformation.

Any other comments?


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Barnes19 said:


> Ok nothing horribly unexpected there *phew* ... the chine is a bit of a puzzle to me, the other B. alpines I've seen have that swayback look to varying degrees as well ... even the top studs have a more horsey-shaped back.
> 
> I wonder whether the rump angle is also similar, I've never seen a goat with what photos describe as a 'level rump' here.
> 
> ...


Here's one of my nigerian dwarf does








I don't know much about dairy goat conformation but her rump is nice and long. It is a little steep but not too bad. You do not want a swayed topline. It can cause health issues. Especially for does that have to carry babies. I think maybe his pasterns look weak?? Anyone else have any comments?


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Here's an example of a good topline. Pygmies are supposed to have slope to their rump so she does not have a level rump.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

The buck in my profile pic has a strong topline too (and he's full size dairy.) Bucks will have sharper withers, but they should be level up to the base of them.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Thats interesting ... I hadn't looked at the pregnant doe side of things.

This is probably his most glaring fault then right? in which case I should be sure to breed him to does with strong backs?

From looking at it I think its a disturbingly common fault in the breed here ... the original imports were very few, and the gene pool is close.

Also, while its long gone from his immediate ancestors, I know for a fact that back in the breed history, there was a lot of in-crossing with nubians to retrieve the good points of the breed from the serious inbreeding problem.

I've heard nubians have a more 'suspension bridge' sort of conformation, could it be a remnant from that background?

I plan on photographing another goat tomorrow and posting her ...


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I'd be more concerned about the hind end, but both are traits you'll want to improve.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

By 'hind end', you mean the steepness of the rump? Could be tricky to improve, goats in nz tend to have steep rumps across the board ... well you'll see from the rest of my herd. I think only one of my goats has a rump any more level than the kid below, and that one is short instead ...

This is Ava, Sable Saanen, few months old.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The bucks worse flaw in the photo IMO is his topline/rump. Its actually pretty terrible. Back pasterns are longer then Id like to see. Dont think they will hold up very well. Especially with the difficulty in finding a good mineral mix. And as you said, the low quality groceries are pretty easy to see. 

I really like his legs. Seem nice and straight. Front ones are perhaps his best feature followed by his head and neck. If he had a little stronger chest, it would really be a great total front end.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

She's a good lookin' thing! 

Pros:
-Topline is GREAT compared to the buck 
-Topline is level and smooth
-Jaw/face are strong, with good depth 
-Mouth is well formed and wide
-Neck is feminine
-Withers are sharp and well formed
-Shoulder is smooth and tight
-Very nice depth in heart girth
-Good spring or ribs
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-Loin is a nice length
-Good body capacity
-Rump is an ok length, it's not actually very short
-Nice incurve to thigh
-Good dairy character
-Good dairy wedge
-Good body length
-Body is well blended
-Smooth, refined appearance
-Legs are straight
-Pasterns are good


Cons:
-Short neck
-Lacks brisket...maybe (her front legs are set too far forward, so it make just look like she does )
-Steep rump - by american standards 
-Head/neck are not in proportion, that may be because she's growing still


Nice girl though


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Now the buck:

Pros:
-The look on his face is so cute! 
-Jaw is deep
-Mouth is wide and open
-Muzzle is a good length
-Neck is a nice length
-Neck is balanced with the body
-Withers are sharp
-Fore legs are smooth, clean and REALLY nice 
-Fore pasterns are upright and strong
-Ok depth in heart girth and barrel
-Good rump length
-Cannon bones are a nice length


Cons:
-Lacks brisket
-Needs a bit more depth
-Topline is bad
-Lacks body length
-Lacks body capacity
-Back legs are too angled
-Rump is steep
-Back pasterns are too long


This buck is the strongest in his front end. Where his topline starts to dip, that's were he loses his power. That topline messes up his whole hind end, imo


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ah so you like my little girl ... lol ... um yeah, somehow when it came time to sell the kids this year she never made it onto the add ... gosh no I don't know how that happened I'm innocent

Who was it that said goat herds have this weird habit of growing?


Here is another, Leia, a crossbred this time, nubian/saanen, one of my milkers.
Her strongest point, as far as I'm concerned, (other than her sweet catlike cuddles) is that she is an absolute dream to milk, easier than any other goat or cow I've encountered.

She is currently being allowed to dry off, slowly in her own time, to get her some down time before breeding, so although this is taken before milking, its not exactly full as she's down to 3 cups a day now.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Her rump isn't too bad - I don't expect it to be quite as level as the show dairy goat in the US are. Ones like hers seem to kid out just fine which is all I'm worried about. She's very weak in the front end; need more brisket, stronger shoulders and deeper heartgirth. Could use better attachment and width in the rear but looks like she has plenty of capacity. Overall she has very different faults from your buck so hopefully they will balance each other out.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

*Sammy*

As a matter of fact I have a young one from that cross, about 9mo ... I'll take a photo of her tomorrow.
I think you'll notice quite a few faults in her ... not the same as her parents perhaps ... I think she is rather downhill, although she wasn't when she was 6mo, or at birth, so maybe she's just in an uneven growth spurt right now.

Actually she's the kid in my profile pic ... but obviously cute baby photos aren't much chuff for conformation!

However for today, this is Samantha, my newest acquisition.

She is pure Saanen, about 3 1/2 years old.

Her biggest fault that I've really run up against so far is her small tough teats! But she does have lovely flavour milk.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Deeper heartgirth than Leia, but worse shoulders - watch for arthritis. Rump looks a bit steeper at least how she's standing in that picture. Good hind legs though they're set on better, and more rear width. Udder looks like it will be pretty impressive when full. I think I like her the best so far except maybe Ava. I know what you mean about the teats though, when I buy senior does I always ask to milk them first! Soft with good orifices are my priority, then size.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Yes she does have a steeper rump ... Leia and Ava are the best it gets in that respect. Udder is pretty impressive when full in early lactation! 

Duly noted on the arthritis point ... could you describe what you're looking at in the shoulders? Is it the angularity, or the slope, or what? 

What precisely is the contrast between an 'awesome' shoulder and a 'terrible' shoulder? 


This is Melli, the offspring from Leia and Bernie. Only half grown yet. 
Now what faults have come through from the parents? 
I think I'm seeing Bernie's chine, and Leia's heart girth.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Partly the angle, which will affect the stress on joints down in the legs, but moreso how the shoulder is attached at the elbow and withers. The way hers juts out shows that there's too much mobility there. Shows up more as they age. Bernie has very good shoulders, the way they just blend into the rest of his body, so he should help fix that. 

I think you're mostly right about Melli. Leia doesn't have the strongest chine either, it's not too bad by itself but won't do much to improve Bernie's. Melli is looking like she'll go more uphill like Bernie. Her rump is right between those two, rear legs pretty angled but not quite as extreme as Bernie. Leia's are pretty straight so I'm surprised that doesn't show up more.

Samantha's hind legs are just about how I like them - set just behind the pin bone, giving you plenty of room to milk but not so far back that they don't seem to support the frame of the goat. Show goats around get pretty extreme in that regard and I'm not a fan of it.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Leia: 

Pros:
-Long jaw
-Nice width in forehead
-Clean throat latch
-Neck is clean and sharp
-Neck is feminine
-Good brisket
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-Fairly good capacity in rear / middle barrel
-Nice length in loin
-Good body length
-Ok rump length
-Nice incurve to thigh
-Front legs are straight
-Back legs are nicely angled
-Legs are clean and sharp
-Nice even width in her rump
-Udder attachment on fore in fairly nice
-Nice width between hocks



Cons:
-Neck is a tad short
-Neck could blend better into shoulder and brisket
-Lacks shoulder. Shoulder is small, too fair forward and out of balance
-Lacks depth in heart girth
-Lacks chest floor
-Downhill
-Uneven topline
-Looks like she toes out in fore and back
-Pasterns are a tad long
-Rump is steep


She really lacks power in the front end, but her hindquarters are too bad.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Melli:

Pros:
-Long jaw
-Deep jaw
-Sharp withers
-Neck blends nicely into shoulder blade
-Shoulder is a better 'fit' then Leia's was. 
-Nice fore legs - straight, clean, feminine
-Nice angle on fore pasterns
-Depth in heart firth is improved over Leia's, but she could still use more
-Nice depth in rear and middle barrel
-Good body capacity
-I like how her barrel blends into her hindquarters
-Rump is a ok length
-Nicely angled back legs
-Back legs are clean and sharp
-I agree with WildHeartsRanch, that she's going to be more uphill
-Good body length


Cons:
-Short neck
-Lacks brisket
-Shoulder is still too far forward
-Lacks chest floor
-Topline is really uneven (It looks though, like she's in a growth spurt )
-Pasterns are a bit long
-Rump is short


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Barnes19 said:


> Ah so you like my little girl ... lol ... um yeah, somehow when it came time to sell the kids this year she never made it onto the add ... gosh no I don't know how that happened I'm innocent


Yup, I like her  Good thing she didn't make it to The Ad


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ok there's only a couple of goats to go now ... Max, Miss, and Rita, although I'm not sure I can get a good photo of Rita, because I have only just beaten a mild case of footrot and she's still not standing square.

This is Max, the young buck kid I've just kept this year to go over Melli, and any other of Bernie's offspring in future.
He's 3-4mo, lovely boy, but he's crossbred, 75% Saanen, 25% Nubian. 

Being crossed, and not with the extra good milking genes like Bernie, he's not as good there, but his sturdy build is probably the right thing for combating the conformation faults from the others. He's by the same buck as Ava, his mother is the one with the sore feet ...

His chine is a good thing for Melli I think ...?


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Oops hang on I didn't attach the image ... lol


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## boerfarmer (Jan 24, 2015)

Hmm... I would keep (or buy? Not sure if he's yours..) as many kids out of Ava and Max's father as possible (assuming the milk is there when Ava gets to maturity).. structurally those are by far your 2 best.. also samantha has a very good hind end and decent capacity.. her front end scares me though.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Samantha:

Pros:
-Nice long jaw
-Deep jaw
-Long muzzle
-Nice depth in heart girth
-Lots and lots of body capacity
-Great depth in rear and middle barrel
-Good body length
-Rump is a nice length
-Nice depth and width in hindquarter
-Nice dairy wedge
-Back legs are nicely angled
-Nice incurve to thigh
-Back legs are well placed
-Legs are fine, sharp and dairy
-Pasterns are fairly well angled
-Back pasterns are a good length and strong
-Good width between hocks
-Forward udder attachments looks real nice
-Teats are well placed
-Nice width of rump



Cons:
-Short neck
-Ewe neck ?
-Lacks sharp withers
-Lacks brisket
-Lacks shoulder
-Lacks power in front end
-Shoulder is weak, lacking forward depth and capacity
-Legs are situated too far forward
-Shoulder is out of balance
-Front knees look weak
-Is downhill
-Rump is steep
-Topline is uneven


Overall, she has a REALLY nice hind end, starting after her shoulders. Her shoulders aren't good at all, I'm afraid, but crossed with that first buck of your's, they should even each other out quite well


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ava and Max's father was mine, but someone ... I don't know who or why ... shot him last week.

Deliberately, walked up to a clearly domestic goat, in my paddock, and shot him point blank in the eye. He was about 500 yards away from the house, up by the road, and I heard the shot at about 9:00 at night, but assumed it was someone after a possum, until I found my poor boy dead the next morning. His favourite tree branch snack I picked for him on the way is still up the paddock I didn't have the heart to bring it back.

Of course he would have just walked straight up to anyone and never suspected, he'd never even have dreamed of harm from a human, he only expected food and cuddles. 

I don't understand why anyone would have done it, what sort of person would do such a thing, and I can't put my goats in the front paddock again. 

So I've lost my nice Saanen buck, am bereived, short of pocket, and deprived of a target. If only I knew who it was I would be sueing them for all he was worth by now, and after the rumour of that went around no-one would ever touch my animals again, but with no idea who it was I'm helpless.

So when alls said and done, Ava and Max are the last word on him. There were some real nice kids sold too, Its a real shame, and I'm very glad I still had Max to replace him.

I only have one photo of him now, climbing over a rock wall under some trees, completely useless for conformation but he was a really nice solid boy.

Max really has his looks, imagine the same looks on an adult, but black instead of brown and you've got Stinky (NO, its not a derogatory name) Actually we named him after a buck we had years ago who, although jokingly dubbed Stinky when he learned to spray himself, was a much loved family member in his old age, so its actually an expression of affection. Was, rather.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

This is Miss.

She is a complete mongrel. My accident, more or less the herd mascot lol. Her father was a NZ feral goat (guess how than happened), which in conformation is like a Nigerian/Pygmy/Dairy cross. The short steep rump is typical of the feral type, but they kid really easily.

Miss has sprung strongly towards the feral side in size and shape. Surprisingly, her production is not bad, but to my eternal frustration her lactation is only 3 months.

The reason I keep her is because she has a complete 100% immunity to worms. Never been drenched in her four years of life, never been sick, weak or shown a high count. In the same paddock as the other goats are wormy, she sails through with flying colours.

Somehow she does this, without any extra minerals, she hates the mineral mix and never has touched it.

I have this hare-brained idea of breeding her to Bernie, for the long lactation gene, 3 years on record from his grandmother, and hopefully coming up with a serviceable milker who is hardier than the norm.

The thing is I'm just loath to sell her and throw away a gene that is one in a million. Whether I decide to try for a doe kid for the sake of her hardiness, or not to bother, depends largely on what faults she has that would be hard to breed back out.

She's dried off right now ... predictably enough ...


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Boy, that's too bad about your buck - it looks like he was one of your best quality, if you'd bred him to Samantha those could have been lovely babies  I like Max a lot better than Bernie overall; I think the only things that are better on Bernie are his shoulder and the fact that he's uphill - but those are only slightly better, and not major faults on Max. His rump is probably his worst quality, the rest of him looks nicely balanced - though it helps that he's in better condition. That might be a consideration too, if he looks better because he has better parasite resistance or utilizes his feed better. I'd be using him more than Bernie at this point, unless you're more interested in milk production than conformation. 

My Kiko goats are long lost cousins to Miss! Very, very distant cousins lol. I'm not sure I'd say that her genetics are one in a million, since you could probably get that from any feral goat, but if you want that trait in your herd, keep her! One of the benefits of feral animals is that while their conformation is rarely exceptional - at least in terms of the traits WE want - they're rarely horrible either, because any serious faults get weeded out by natural selection. Other than the rump she's also weak in the chine - Bernie won't help with either of those - but I like her shoulder, depth of body, and rear legs. Again you'll have to choose to focus on the milk production or build of the offspring.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Basically the same thing as Kiko yes, just not official ... Miss is an extreme case of the 'feral type' too ... but I'm not convinced how much of her worm resistance comes from that. Plenty of the ferals get in trouble when they get into a farming situation where they have to eat grass instead of trees ... definately her father, the young thing that decided to join our herd that day, was one of them ... he had serious parasite issues quite quickly.

Her domestic mother (name of Houdini) was also pretty hardy, I didn't raise her, only got her in quite old age, but she never needed drenching here either, nor did her other kids.

I've got one doe to go still, but its raining right now. I will probably have to replace the pack in her hoof rot after this stops ... she has this little hole, about the size of a small pea, that I'm trying to kill off and she's not very happy about it. Apparently my medicines sting ...


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Oh, I'm getting a little behind!  I want to do those two as well  and Samantha...I don't think I've done her 

So:
-Samantha
-Max
-Miss

My to-do list


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ok this is the last one ... Rita, Max's mother.

She is Nubian/Saanen. No, definitely not Boer, despite the colouration! ... she hasn't got a drop of boer in her, unless its from a very long way back.

She's not in milk right now, I didn't milk her this year having plenty of milk from other does, and she had triplets to raise, hard work apparently, after two were weaned and sold, Max just self weaned as well. So I can't show her udder ... but it is nice when its in ... perfect textbook teats, straight, large, and well defined.

She does have a butchy face ... at least I think it lacks femininity ... no offense intended to the little lady.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Saanens tend to have very coarse heads. They're large framed so it looks ok on purebreds, but can be funky when they're crossed - I've got a Boer/Sable who's short and thick but her head is a long as a horse, it makes me laugh 

Biggest thing about Rita that stands out to me is she's very shallow bodied, from heartgirth all the way back. One of the worse rumps but hind legs are decent. Chine isn't exceptional but not too bad either. She's also a bit downhill - which I realized I've neglected to mention on several others.

Really, I'm impressed that she threw a kid as nice as Max - so at least she's capable of better kids. I think you lucked out with him.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Max is hardier than Bernie. Bernie has an inbreeding problem: Max has hybrid vigour. He's never been drenched yet ... his eyes are bright and his FEC hovering right on the verge of do-I-don't-I drench ... if he holds that level down by himself though I'm happy and impressed.

I've established milking at a level I'm happy with already, so except for Miss who needs milking genes yet, my focus is now on both conformation and hardiness.

My goal is to better the 'home milker' of the goat world here. The commercial dairy herds have the monopoly on the milk production: the show studs have it for the conformation. When I was searching for good does to start my own self-sufficient milking herd, I found a sad lack of quality available.

The average home milker produces 4 cups, has a large unsightly udder, pendulous, collapsing on one side, and with no teat definition at all. Probably one teat looks like a carrot and the other is just a cone shaped end to the forked udder that happens to have a hole at the bottom. How one is supposed to milk this is anyone's guess. She is herring-gutted: downhill: has a steep rump, and probably looks like a horse. She has bad feet, and weak legs, occasionally serious parasite problems, and could do with a touch more copper. For the rest of her conformation, I'm simply not a good enough judge to say.

About the only things going for this stereotype goat are that she is a pretty colour and her owners dote on her.

There are many does who are better than that of course: but thats a close description of about 50% of the home dairy goat population, and mine were the best I could lay my hands on.

My goal is to produce a herd of good home milkers, who have decent production, increased hardiness, markedly imporved udders, and good overall conformation. I'd like to see home milkers that, while undoubtedly not up to the best, or even average, of either world, a dairy farmer wouldn't frown at, and a show owner couldn't look down his nose at. And then to make the kids and studs available to improve the home dairy goat in general here.

Not half ambitious am I? Ok so its a bit much for one small lady to expect to upgrade the whole country, but I'd like to be able to encourage some improvement in northland anyway. I'm only 21, I have time! I've got a small herd yet, but I believe in starting with a number you can go 100% on, and make them the best you can before you expand.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

I have a full herd quota right now, but next time I buy a goat, I'm seeing a need for a strong topline, right? I have bad rumps across the board, varying degrees of weak chines in most, and a lot of downhill does?

At this stage, the plan for breeding is as follows.

Rita and Ava have to go with Bernie because of relation to Max. (Ava not until next year though)
Melli has to go with Max because of relation to Bernie.

Miss I want to put with Bernie for the long lactation gene ... I think its going to be needed to get a really useful doe kid from Miss. In addition I'd expect a fairly shocking rump out of Max and Miss!
The offspring of that will be going with Max though, and I think that will be a good thing in most respects of conformation.

Leia I have decided would be better bred to Max. Rump is my biggest drawback on that mating ... Leia's won't do much to improve his.

Samantha is in with Bernie right now, has been for a couple of weeks ... looking to get the first cycle of the season for a continuous milk supply and Max is still a baby.
I note her worst faults are almost a direct opposite of Bernie's so I'll be interested to see the kids. Her mating next year is up for choice ... I may get good kids from her and Bernie, but probably Max's would be even better? For selling excess kids the pedigree alpine sire is a plus over a crossbred ... but thats not my goal, and has to be a secondary consideration.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

This is an example of what I'm talking about ... These are NOT my goats, to be clear ... I would be ashamed at the condition ... this is what is for sale on the internet right now.

There is currently a fairly good selection of udders ... but then the ones that are bad never photograph the udder - you only see those in person. There are a number of adds that read "milking goat for sale", who has "lovely udder" is "easy to milk" and has "Plenty of years left in her" that have only a photograph of the head and neck of the goat ... I have to wonder??


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

^THAT^ is why I'm wanting to breed better goats.

The udder quality is not bad today ... although it has to be said, there are a lot of adds for a "Good Milking Nanny", who has a "Large Udder", is "Easy To Milk", and has "Plenty of Years Left in Her Yet", but only show a photo of her head and neck.


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