# timeline of labor



## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Okay, I know about the doe code. But...

She's been putting her front legs up on the steps and stretching, which I've never seen her do. My intuition tingled. I think she's stretching to position kids. Is this a labor is imminent thing (like within 6 hours?) or can it be way ahead of time still, like 12-48 hours?

If she still hasn't lost her ligaments, and is an experienced doe, can I presume that she's in the very early stages and I have 6 hours to sleep? Ligaments are slightly different than last week, but aren't even spongey yet, and haven't changed in the last 17 hours. 

I've only helped first fresheners... Can the process speed up with each subsequent kidding, like with humans?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

She is trying to get comfortable. Those kids take up a lot of room.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm sorry @singinggoatgirl I think you have a while to wait.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

This year I have had a doe 100% of her tendon and she delivered within 12 hours and another that had no tendon and it was a month before delivery.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

I did have time to sleep! That's all I wanted at the time... But, now her ligaments are definitely loose. Not gone yet, but a huge difference from when I wrote my above post. Now that I'm (only slightly) more lucid after 3 hours of sleep, I'm conservatively guessing we're gearing up for the real thing sooner rather than later. My FF were like this about 18 hours before kidding, but they are completely unrelated to Ginger.

Is there an average timeline for ligament loosening and baby positioning, or is it really so very individual that averages are pointless? Do subsequent labors tend to go faster like with humans?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

It's all individual, so far as I can tell...


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## OpieDoodle (Nov 15, 2015)

I really believe it is based on the individual. I've seen a lot of people posting that their doe lost her ligaments and still had a couple weeks before she kid and others lost them hours before delivery. Losing the ligaments is a great "warning" sign that labor is near but some does just take their time still!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It is so individual. Nothing is a guarantee.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I don't think averages are pointless. I've read a lot of posts that say the doe "lost her ligaments" and then didn't kid for several weeks, which means the person didn't actually know how to check the ligaments. A lot of people check too close to the spine, which _is_ loosey-goosey in just about any goat, including my wethers (and I _know_ they aren't pregnant!). The actual ligs themselves are further out and angled, and they don't disappear until sometime within the last 24 hours. Some goats' ligaments stay rock hard until they suddenly go limp just before the big event, while others' start softening, hardening, and softening again as much as a couple weeks out. But they don't get gone gone until the last 24 hours before labor when the actual birthing hormones kick in and trigger the ligs to disappear.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All you can do is watch her.

Doe's get uncomfortable and will move and stretch to try to move the kids into a different position so it stops the pressure of a hoof pushing into her organ ect. 
I have seen a Doe actually roll over on her back just to reposition a kid, because it is uncomfortable. 
Doesn't meant they are in labor. 

Do you have any pics? Full rear with udder and a side pic?

How is her udder?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> A lot of people check too close to the spine, which _is_ loosey-goosey in just about any goat, including my wethers (and I _know_ they aren't pregnant!).


Just to clarify this statement, goats are not usually loose around the tailhead, but I've seen those muscles get loose in a lot of goats at some point when they're very relaxed, tired, or just plain old with no muscle tone. The looseness is much more pronounced and consistent in a doe approaching her due date, but you still have to make sure you're feeling the actual ligaments and not the muscles around the tail head. If you're reaching your fingers around the tailbone, you're not feeling far enough out.


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

They love to keep us guessing, don't they?! :nod:

The stretching and other odd behaviors doesn't mean that they are in labor, like others have said, they are just pregnant! Haha! As far as the ligs go, I know some people on here have experienced goats whose ligaments come and go those last few weeks. I do think that in the majority of cases (and in my experience) when the ligaments are all the way gone (it's all just gush back there and you can't feel the ligaments at all) then you are within 24 hours. 

Good luck!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Yeah, once those ligaments are gone gone, they don't come back, and you're looking at babies very soon. I believe all of mine so far have been within 12 hours of losing those ligs.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I have always been terrible about finding ligs. I just wait for the udder to fill and tail is floppy lol


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

So, then, how often do each of you check your does after the first possible day 145? I bought her bred, and she was in with the buck at the previous owner’s place for 2 whole months. I’d like to get SOME sleep in the next 2 months... I really wish I had a real due date to go off of.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

No due dates are a pain in the behind  but I check mine every 3 hours. Someone a few years back posted the reasons why they check every three hours. It was very valid reasons........I wish I could remember what they were lol but it works well. If on the check the doe gives me any reason to think she is super close then I will check on her every hour once I see those signs.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

In my experience, the doe isn't in labor until the ligament area is super mushy and the ligs are completely gone. When it's mushy, I can feel the part of her spine in her tailhead. Like really feel every vertebre all the way down. That and a large udder fill and my does are kidding within 12 hours.

I have one currently who I've not kidded with before. Hers are still soft and they have dropped really low. She also hates me checking them. She's had lots of various other signs here or there, but I think it's just preparation. I would see them, get interested, then think no...ligs and udder (while filled, didn't fill a lot all of the sudden which I look for) so probably not labor. I don't know HER specific signs so I'm learning hers.

I check 3 times a day (sometimes more if I am seeing little signs) after day 145. Morning feeding, afternoon, night feeding. Again if I'm questioning, sometimes I'll come out around 10pm and check too. I have yet to have one just change instantly or kid WITH the tendons, I know it happens so I keep that in mind with this one since I have not kidded with her before.


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## OpieDoodle (Nov 15, 2015)

I am in the same boat as you, only a slightly smaller window. I bought a doe and they told me she's due and gave me a month and a half range. Something I am doing is trying to take photos of her udders and such each day and try to track behaviors. Unfortunately without a date it makes it really hard on us! I was told my girl could deliver any time between the next week and end of march. I already had high anxiety so this isn't helping me! 

Just keep monitoring her and hopefully your and I's does will deliver sooner rather than later to keep us from all this anxiety and stress LOL


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Damfino said:


> Just to clarify this statement, goats are not usually loose around the tailhead, but I've seen those muscles get loose in a lot of goats at some point when they're very relaxed, tired, or just plain old with no muscle tone. The looseness is much more pronounced and consistent in a doe approaching her due date, but you still have to make sure you're feeling the actual ligaments and not the muscles around the tail head. If you're reaching your fingers around the tailbone, you're not feeling far enough out.


Damfino -- could you (or anyone) post a photo of you "checking ligs"? That might be helpful for OP -- and also for others of us who thought we were doing it right but after reading this thread we're not so sure!!! LOL Thank you!

OP -- good luck to you!!!!


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

For me, I felt on a non-bred doe to feel what they felt like normally.

I agree that a lot of people that say they've been gone for weeks, aren't feeling them right. There is a combination of things going on when they are "gone". Firstly, they sometimes drop really low against the thurls. I have had that happen this year. Second, if they are truly gone, you will feel complete mush. Not just they are gone, but it's super squishy all in that area. There has always been a distinct difference when the ligs have dropped and are hard to find, and when they are truly gone. The tail head right above the ligs arches upwards, sides where you feel hollows out and you can feel the vertebrae in the spine all the way down the tail head. Wrapping fingers around tailhead shouldn't be part of the "losing ligaments" wordage. It gives the wrong impression.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

One year, when I was less aware of my need for selenium than I am now, I had a few does kid and keep distinct ligaments. The kids had pretty bad signs of selenium deficiency. I wasn't putting it all together yet. 

I thought, No, sometimes the ligs don't disappear. Some times you have to cut the sack open, some sacks are just really tough. I guess having to splint legs for a few days isn't SO bad...

All this to say, kidding while still having ligs CAN happen, but it isn't right to have happen.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Here you go:


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Jubillee said:


> For me, I felt on a non-bred doe to feel what they felt like normally.
> 
> I agree that a lot of people that say they've been gone for weeks, aren't feeling them right. There is a combination of things going on when they are "gone". Firstly, they sometimes drop really low against the thurls. I have had that happen this year. Second, if they are truly gone, you will feel complete mush. Not just they are gone, but it's super squishy all in that area. There has always been a distinct difference when the ligs have dropped and are hard to find, and when they are truly gone. The tail head right above the ligs arches upwards, sides where you feel hollows out and you can feel the vertebrae in the spine all the way down the tail head. Wrapping fingers around tailhead shouldn't be part of the "losing ligaments" wordage. It gives the wrong impression.
> 
> View attachment 147021


^ This is spot on! Thanks for that excellent description!


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Good info! 3 years ago, I had no clue how to check ligaments. Now, I’m pretty clear on how to check ligaments, and what it feels like when they are truly gone. The hardest part for me is timing. I always think sure, her ligaments are firm now, but that could change anytime! How often to check ligaments so you for sure know ahead of time that they are going into labor is what I need to know.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

This might be info that is too personalized to each goat... what do you do, timing-wise?


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

mariarose said:


> One year, when I was less aware of my need for selenium than I am now, I had a few does kid and keep distinct ligaments. The kids had pretty bad signs of selenium deficiency. I wasn't putting it all together yet.
> 
> I thought, No, sometimes the ligs don't disappear. Some times you have to cut the sack open, some sacks are just really tough. I guess having to splint legs for a few days isn't SO bad...
> 
> All this to say, kidding while still having ligs CAN happen, but it isn't right to have happen.


VERY interesting observation.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

singinggoatgirl said:


> This might be info that is too personalized to each goat... what do you do, timing-wise?


For me, when I feel they are gone, we have babies within 12 hours. It's been less for me though. Also, I'll check them at night around 10...still there...then morning around 7...gone and udder filled. SO...idk how long they had been gone. But they kid that day.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

I also check morning, afternoon, evening, late night after day 145. The late night one is only if I've seen things to make me on guard.


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

As for how often to check... by the time you are noticing signs of labor, just follow your natural instincts to completely obsess over checking on your mama-to-be every 5 minutes so that you don't miss even the slightest change! HA

I always feel my pregnant girls ligaments and check out their vulva and udder every day at feeding. If I notice discharge, it looks like they dropped, their udder is significantly bigger or the ligaments start to feel springy, then I will check again later that day. 

Once their ligaments are gone I will check every hour during the day and every 3 hours at night... And I've still missed a birth that way With a due date!


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

Here is a list I compiled when I was doing my own research before I had ever had a goat kid...

Signs of Labor-

• Abnormal behavior: Teeth grinding, not eating/drinking, wide eyes, separating from the herd, vocalizes more or less than usual, walks more or less than usual, bites at sides, looks behind her, lies down and stands up frequently, stretching, yawning etc…
--- 12-36 hours
• Lost ligaments, raised tail head, hollowed sides
--- Labor within 24 hours
• Full/shiny udder
--- Within 24 hours
• Long flat vulva, reduced bulge
--- Within 24 hours
• Pawing the ground/ Making a nest
--- ½ hour to 12 hours
• Clear or amber streaming
--- Very soon
• Soft nickering
--- Within 4 hours
• Arched back and tail (Contraction)
--- Don’t leave her side!


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Looks like we're in the 12-24 hour range! Ligaments disappeared at 3AM this morning!


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

Woohooo! Exciting!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Happy kidding.


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