# are both mine full pygmys?



## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

My female is ready to pop (due in a week) and if she has more then one baby i have to sell all but one and i was told from both the people i got my goats from that they are full pygmy but i just want to get your opinion on it so if i do have to sell them then i know i can sell the babies as pygmys.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Not an expert here but, it looks like they are, especially the grey- black one. 

They are cute by the way


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

Thank you, i think my boy is part alpine though, what do you think? This picture was takin in summer so its not winter hair. He has long red hair on his butt and he has a white frosting strip down his back.

This is his butt.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Is he larger than a normal Pygmy?

The red is copper deficiency. Do you copper bolus them at all? Do you have a good loose goat mineral out for them free choice?


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

he's the same size but he is more legs, she has a bigger body. And i did but it melted in the rain a long while back and i havent gotten another one, he was this color since i got him as a four month old. My female has no red on her?


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## ogfabby (Jan 3, 2013)

I would still say give him a copper bolus. He shouldn't have that bleached look to his hair. I would almost be willing to bet that he has a deficiency that is causing the hair to grow like that. Some goats will show it and some won't. You will be amazed at the difference it will make.


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

Okay, thank you!


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

Is that a shot or supplement? And where would i get it? Do you recommend any certain supplements and mineral blocks?


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## ogfabby (Jan 3, 2013)

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2e87c3c9-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5&ccd=IBL004

That is the link for the copasure bolus. You should bolus first and then use a mineral supplement for goats (not goats and sheep. Copper is fatal to sheep). The goat minerals also contain copper.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Truthfully....unless the parents are registered Pygmy's you can't assume they are pure pygmy. I raise Nigerian Dwarf/Pygmy crosses as well asd Registered Purebred Nigerians and I'd sa ay that with the appearance in each goat, they are likely crosses.
A decent loose mineral that has a good amount of copper as well as other beneficial minerals and vitamins would be Manna Pro goat mineral....get them on that then do research on copper bolusing, theres more involved than just "get it and give it" The copper deficiancies show as orange color on black goats,like your buck....get them on the mineral and when the weather warms and stays warm around end of May, you can clip your buck free of the long hair and watch as it grows back...with the added copper, it should come back healthy and black.

Also...please separate your buck from your does....nigerians and pygmies will breed prolifically and mama's need to be able to raise babies without risk of rebreeding too soon, it is not easy on them to be constantly producing.


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

Its really expensive, and my buck (now a weather) got my doe pregnant when he was almost five months old so it didnt bother his reproductive system. Lol iWhat would happen if i just got them the minerals with copper in it?


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## Texas.girl (Dec 20, 2011)

I say copper def. too. I have a solid black Spanish buck and one month after I weaned him from his bottle his hair started turning that color. When I learned what was going on I treated him and he turned back into a solid black goat.


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

Well i don't have a buck anymore, he is now a weather and it was an accidental breeding we thought he was too young and we had time to castrate him but he got her before we did it. I only have the two goats so i don't want to separate them other then at night when she goes in her birthing area. And Im pretty sure my doe is a full pygmy, the farm i got her from only had pygmys, what makes you think she's not? And i will do that, thank you! What would you think my weather was mixed with? And what is a lose mineral, a powder? And do i put it in there food or just make it available?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

The Manna Pro goat mineral is available at most Tractor Supply stores...put it out in a dish under cover where it won't get wet or soiled, they'll take what they need.
It's good that your boy is wethered, less stress and no need to separate, though mama may not want him around her babies for a few days.

As far as why I suggested that both are crosses, not only do they have longer looking canons (bone from hoof to knee) than a purebred pygmy but their ears are longer than those of a pygmy....pygmy ears are shorter and more upright.
Even if your doe came from a herd of "pygmys"....the only way to be sure she is purebred is if her parents were NPGA registered....sadly, there are many breeders who have miniature or dwarf goats and call them Pygmy's....as a size, not a breed.

IF you do think that your boy is likely an outcross with a large breed parent, there is chance that the kids he sires will be bigger too, have your vets number handy just in case you need to help mama...and oif course, we'd love to see pics of the new herdmembers when they arrive :hug:


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

Okay, ill look for it tomorrow and i planned on keeping them separate for acouple days because he likes to rough house and i dont want him to hurt the babies! He's still a young guy, around nine months old. I know he's a small breed goat because the farm i got him from showed me the possible dads and his mother but the dads didn't look like pygmys at all but were about the size of him. Im okay with them not being pure i just didn't want to sell the babies (if i have to) as pure bred if they wernt. Also, my doe is due in a week, will the baby be effected by the copper problem? My doe has no red spots on her only the black and white frosting.


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## pdpo222 (Jun 26, 2011)

Ok, now with all that being said not all pygmys meet the standard exactly. April, my doe is too tall. Why? I dunno, but she throws kids with strong pygmy traits. Her doe from last year is small, color is correct, ears are good and you can tell she's a pygmy. So just because all the dots don't connect, it doesn't mean your pygmy isn't a pygmy. Just means they have some faults in certain areas. In our area, it is very depressed. Goats are not a big thing around here. Cows are all over. Most goats are mixed breed with a smattering of Boers. There is no way I could sell a kid around here for 200.00. Since I know my market, grade animals are ok for me. I will sell them for $75.00-$100.00. If I know that is all I'm going to get, paying out the big money for registered stock and selling at grade prices just doesn't make sense. Oh sure, maybe once or twice I might get the big bucks for one, but I'm not into waiting for that one buyer to come along. Now maybe I will get a really nice looking kid. If I don't keep it, the price might be higher. But I have to sell at a price for my area. I judge all my pygmy's by my buck. He was registered. I am pretty sure all his dots connect. I haven't measured all the spots, because basically I don't care. I do it for the fun of it. I'll never show, so horns are fine with me. The ones I sell sadly will have to be disbudded. So just because your pygmy doesn't match the breed standard in all points, doesn't mean it can't be a pygmy. You can breed out faults if you want. If you are really bothered by a fault, then find a buck who is strong in that area. And anymore, any small goat seems to get the label pygmy. That is why the breed is such a mess. When I buy a doe I ask the seller for a picture. If the color doesn't match breed standard I pass. That is my first clue there maybe something else in the background. So learn your colors and patterns for the pygmy. That's your first clue. I will keep mine pygmy. I won't have another breed around. Except for the pygora that came with the batch of does. But he's a wether so...... I'll never make what I put into these goats and I know that. It's a hobby. If they make enough to pay the hay bill I'm over joyed. I just like raising them. Faults or not. And I still want to see a picture of that baby!!!!


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

I will definitely post pictures when she kids! And i have no proof either are pygmy, i got them as pets, not for breeding, i thought my male was too young (at four months) to get my doe because i left them together before i castrated him and obviously he's a very fertile little guy! Lol i was just trying to figure out an idea of what they were in case i had to sell babies but thank you very much for the information and Im glad your doing something you love!


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

I think you have a lot of good answers so far. I agree with Liz - I see a lot of faults which could mean either they are a pygmy mix or just pygmies with faults. I would sell the kids as pygmy mix. Check out the NPGA website for information on conformation and coloring. http://www.npga-pygmy.com/resources/conformation/color_samples.asp and http://www.npga-pygmy.com/resources/conformation/NPGABreedStandard.pdf

The red I agree with ksalvagno and ogfabby and is probably a copper deficiency. Easy remedy if it is. But I noticed in the first picture of your doe - is that an area on her belly that has no hair?

Also a week left - she doesn't look pregnant in the pictures. Another reason I lean towards a mix. Pygmies are known for their "pregnant look" even when not pregnant and they just don't have that look. Unfortunately, too many people have believed that all small goats are pygmies or dwarfs and use these two terms interchangeably without knowing they are two different breeds and should have two very different looks. So there ends up being a lot of Nigerian-Pygmy mixes. I only breed the two together when I have a request to do so and deposit on hand, but even then I don't like doing it because it takes something away from each breed independently. IMO Nigerians should be bred as Nigerians; Pygmies as Pygmies. I love them both but they are completely different breeds, and should be. I try to breed my Nigerians for the taller, dairy look and I want my Pygmies to be short legged and stout - as close to the standards as I can get.


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

She has a hairless spot because we shaved her for an ultrasound (in the late summer), in the pictures she's only one month into the pregnancy. The picture in the barn is her now, he's a ff and i think she only as one. We ultrasounded her on Friday and found one heart beat but didn't really look for anymore. Also i monitor there grain so the are not over weight at all, i feed my girl more now that she's pregnant so that why they don't look pregnant. But thank you for the information!


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

pygmymommy said:


> She has a hairless spot because we shaved her for an ultrasound (in the late summer), in the pictures she's only one month into the pregnancy. The picture in the barn is her now, he's a ff and i think she only as one. We ultrasounded her on Friday and found one heart beat but didn't really look for anymore. Also i monitor there grain so the are not over weight at all, i feed my girl more now that she's pregnant so that why they don't look pregnant. But thank you for the information!


I looked at all the pictures. The one in the barn just looks like a healthy size for a Pygmy - not fat - not pregnant. My does look that way year round and then double or triple the width when pregnant. I glad she is doing well with the pregnancy. It's really neat when you can get an ultrasound! Makes you feel even more a part of it all. I know you will enjoy them both or all three with the new baby!


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

Well my mom and i are vet techs so we keep a close eye on my goats weight. We don't want big chubby goats ( no offence ) we want healthy goats, but i mean they are very active they run around on an acre of field daily and don't get much grain, mommy gets alittle more now but not the little guy. You can tell that she is pregnant in the picture of her in the barn because of her udder (she's a ff) and she is alot bigger then the other pictures. But thank you very much, Im really excited!


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

I just found out by the farm who had my doe that she is registered. So what are her faults and if i wanted to breed her what would i have to breed her to to make a better quality baby?


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

pygmymommy said:


> I just found out by the farm who had my doe that she is registered. So what are her faults and if i wanted to breed her what would i have to breed her to to make a better quality baby?


Great! Will they give you her papers so you can transfer the registration? If they will, I would definitely get a registered buck to breed with. Here is the breed conformation
sheet http://www.npga-pygmy.com/resources/conformation/NPGABreedStandard.pdf
You want to look at your doe objectively, determine her areas that need improvement to meet or exceed standard and then find a buck with those qualities which do meet or exceed standards. Pay close attention to body structure. Try to look at the buck's parents and see if those same qualities are there as well to know if it is a dominant trait. You will never get the perfect standard pygmy, but our goal is to try to improve to it as close as we can.

Now for my objective opinion - and this is based solely on the pictures you have. She may look different in life. Her biggest fault is her body capacity. Although she seems short in stature which is a great quality, she is not cobby at all. What you see as healthy and not fat is considered thin and a fault in a pygmy. When I look at a non-pregnant pygmy, I want to see the width to be the same or more than her length.
Here's a pic of a pygmy (not pregnant) doe at 2yrs old
http://www.elwoodranch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/024.jpg Notice how wide she is and this is not being pregnant. Pygmies are known for this trait. It is a must within the standard. (Also notice the long neck in the picture - that is a fault. My doe needs a shorter, more stout neck.)

It is hard to breed this trait back into a pygmy line because bucks carry a smaller paunch than does. You would definitely need to look at the doe mother of a buck to determine if he would carry a better body trait. If she were mine, I would want to get a buck whose mother was overly stout and continue this for at least three generations to get her line where it should be.

I think once you read the standards and familiarize yourself with what you are looking at, you'll be able to see where you need to go with her. But it's a must if you are wanting to breed purebreds that will do well at show.


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## RowdyKidz (Apr 2, 2009)

Just because she is registered does not mean it is through the NPGA... There are other mini organizations through which she could be registered. And if she is... I hate to say it but she shouldn't have been registered as she lacks alot of breed recognization. Too much. I understand that there are faults but nothing about that doe says she's a purebred Pygmy. I've spent years researching purebred pygmies vs registered pygmies vs unregistered mixes. Unless I had NPGA papers in hand or sire and dam's reg names and numbers I wouldn't think a thing of it. She was sold to you without papers for a reason. Just my two cents 

btw- it's nice seeing new Pygmy peeps!


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## RowdyKidz (Apr 2, 2009)

They are cuties though!  I do like the doe, she doesn't seem too bad. I don't care for her head, she could use a shorter neck and broader chest floor and a little bit more muscling but with the right buck you could get some nice babies! If she is registered I would be curious on her background (ie - her sire and dam's registered name; I love doing pedigree research!)


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## imthegrt1 (Jan 13, 2013)

RowdyKidz said:


> Just because she is registered does not mean it is through the NPGA... There are other mini organizations through which she could be registered. And if she is... I hate to say it but she shouldn't have been registered as she lacks alot of breed recognization. Too much. I understand that there are faults but nothing about that doe says she's a purebred Pygmy. I've spent years researching purebred pygmies vs registered pygmies vs unregistered mixes. Unless I had NPGA papers in hand or sire and dam's reg names and numbers I wouldn't think a thing of it. She was sold to you without papers for a reason. Just my two cents
> 
> btw- it's nice seeing new Pygmy peeps!


What would you say would be the price difference in these as far as purebred register and not register ?


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## RowdyKidz (Apr 2, 2009)

I would say, honestly... Quite a bit. I would never sell an unregistered buck. I sell my unregistered wethers for $75, and my unregistered does for $100-$150. My registered wethers go from $100-$150 and I have spent from $150-$500 on my breeding stock. I love my Pygmies and take hugeee pride in my herd! And yes, I am crazy for those little chubbers!


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## imthegrt1 (Jan 13, 2013)

I found this buck kiddo for 80 bucks and register with papers think I might buy


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

RowdyKidz said:


> Just because she is registered does not mean it is through the NPGA... There are other mini organizations through which she could be registered. And if she is... I hate to say it but she shouldn't have been registered as she lacks alot of breed recognization. Too much. I understand that there are faults but nothing about that doe says she's a purebred Pygmy. I've spent years researching purebred pygmies vs registered pygmies vs unregistered mixes. Unless I had NPGA papers in hand or sire and dam's reg names and numbers I wouldn't think a thing of it. She was sold to you without papers for a reason. Just my two cents
> 
> btw- it's nice seeing new Pygmy peeps!


I got her for $50 as a pet not to show so i don't really care, i just wanted to see what you guys thought. All he said was she was registered and i have an ear tag for her. Im keeping her babies and she's not going to be breed again it was an accident to begin with.


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

The boy, i don't have a good picture of the girl but she's the same face wise but has no white other then on her face.









Both of them


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

imthegrt1 said:


> I found this buck kiddo for 80 bucks and register with papers think I might buy


My girl looks just like them!


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## ChristinaK (Feb 5, 2013)

pygmymommy said:


> My female is ready to pop (due in a week) and if she has more then one baby i have to sell all but one and i was told from both the people i got my goats from that they are full pygmy but i just want to get your opinion on it so if i do have to sell them then i know i can sell the babies as pygmys.


The one with the chicken, is really cute!!


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## pygmymommy (Jan 11, 2013)

That's my mamma goat!


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