# To fence or goatherd?



## ZebAkers (Nov 29, 2016)

_Anybody have any experience with/advice on *goatherding*???_

On my 4th day of goat ownership, I am considering herding rather than fencing. I purchased my 2 pygmy goats to serve as pets and to help me clear the jungle in my backyard, and am reconsidering the fence I had previously planned to construct around my ~1acre wooded lot. I planned to let them free-roam the lot during the day to let them conduct brush control on their own terms, and then house them in their smaller pen at night. Now I am playing with the idea of keeping them in their smaller pen most of the time, and letting them out once per day to forage/clear brush under my supervision.

Currently my 2 pygmy goats are kept in a 2,500sqft pen, surrounded on 3 sides by 4' tall galvanized steel wire fencing & on the 4th side by a 30ft tall rock formation complete with cave (and constructed weatherproof goat shelter within). Thus far they do not seem anxious to escape (_though I know it is probably still too early to tell_). The rock formation provides lots of climbing/play, and the pen is mostly brush/thicket at the moment with (what I think is) plenty for them to forage on for the time being. There are also large rocks, logs, and other toys for them scattered throughout the enclosure. When I first constructed this pen I planned for it to be their temporary boundaries, to be expanded asap to include the entirety of our 1acre wooded lot. As I mentioned above, now I am considering ditching the idea of fencing the entire lot in and just letting them out once per day to forage/explore/clear brush (under my supervision). Basically I am envisioning 1-3 hours of goat herding per day, ideally keeping them within the bounds of my lot, occasionally guiding them on forays deeper into the woods (~700 acres of mountainside forest behind my house).

As far as neighbors are concerned, I have one on each side of my house. However, I am the only person on my street that I know of who uses their backyard whatsoever. Our street is on a bluff atop a mountain, and most houses do not have access to the portion of their property that extends past the bluff. Luckily, my portion of the bluff is a little shorter, and with a ladder I am able to access my backyard with ease. That being said, the goats would be unable to reach the street or my house (or my neighbor's houses for that matter). The neighbors' backyards are pretty much collections of fallen trees and dense thicket (with a few trash items that have been carelessly tossed off of the bluff over the years :evil. Though I plan to try to keep the goats' efforts focused on MY backyard jungle, I don't think the neighbors would care in the least bit if a goat or two occasionally wandered into their untouched thickets.

I have searched this forum and the internet in general, and found limited information on goatherding (especially in regards to small numbers of goats). Thus I have turned to the experts (*you*) for help.

*-If I were to develop decent goatherd skills, do you think I could convince my 2 goats to respect the boundaries of my 1acre lot and effectively use them to help me clear/control the brush?

-More importantly, if this idea were realistic, would this be enough exercise/forage for my goats to be healthy & happy?

-Lastly, any tips on becoming a proficient goatherd?*

Thanks in advance for any insight or advice anyone has to offer!


----------



## ZebAkers (Nov 29, 2016)

One more question: _*can goats climb ladders?*_
(_I'd rather they *not *climb this ladder, as it leads to the house_)


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I don't have a lot of answers for you but your rock bluff & goat cave description really hooked my attention! Are you able to share photos?!?!

My thoughts are:

1. mentally, grazing/browsing animals are intended to be kept busy for numerous hours a day munching away. A goat with access to pasture or browse all day (like, 2-4 goats per acre or less) every day is a goat that is much less likely to get into trouble or attempt escapes. With that said, plenty of folks keep goats without adequate pasture or browse and I'm not saying those goats are unhappy. 

2. I do not think you can teach your goats to respect the boundaries of your lot, but you CAN teach them to stay fairly close to you as your trek throughout the acceptable properties. Many folks train their goats to "pack" trips through the mountains. But are you really going to spend 2 hours every single day walking with your goats?

3. the less structured option is to just let the goats out to roam free each day when you get home. I do this many, but not all days, to save the grazing pressure on the pastures. I don't stay outside with the goats, and they don't run away from home ever. The barn is their "safe" spot so if they get spooked, they run right back. However, if your goats are very bonded to you, they may spend this time calling at your back door instead of going out & foraging. It depends on how confident they are and how much they see you as herd Queen.


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Re: ladders

I wouldn't put it past them: https://www.google.com/search?q=goa...uZ9NXQAhXHlFQKHTygC6cQsAQIKQ&biw=1046&bih=618


----------



## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I've seen goats climb ladders, but not one that steep. With a bluff that low you could easily build them a ladder they could climb. 

I agree with SalteyLove. The goats won't learn the boundaries of your lot, but most goats quickly learn where "home" is and don't tend to stray very far from it unless they run out of food or are looking for love. Once your goats know where home is, I don't think there's any reason why you need to stay with them every moment they're out of their pen unless you have serious problems with prowling dogs or wild predators. Sounds to me like your goats should be in heaven with all that browse!


----------



## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

I did something similar to this for about 6 months, while we were waiting to build our larger, 1-acre pasture. It started out lovely, so peaceful and relaxing, hanging out with the goats, watching them eat, but gradually it became more and more of a burden. 

It's a huge commitment in time for one thing, to have to do that every day. One hour won't be enough, 2-3 may work, especially if spread out, like an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon. Like another person said, goats are all-day eaters, so filling them up all in one go, once a day usually isn't enough. 

One solution to that is to have hay on hand that you can give them on the days that you are unwilling or unable to take them out, or when you take them out for a shorter amount of time. This may be a good idea anyway, to have as back-up in case of bad weather, etc. 

The second thing is, no, they do not respect boundaries at all, and if they figure out where something delicious and forbidden is growing they will start making a beeline for it every time. For us, it was my young, freshly-planted orchard, on a different part of the property. Eventually, it got to be too much hassle to take them out. 

You could certainly try it for the time being, then build your fence later, if you decide you want to have a life of your own again


----------



## ZebAkers (Nov 29, 2016)

Thanks for everyone's replies, I really appreciate yall's insight!

@SalteyLove: Holy goat! Those are some CRAZY pictures. Makes me wonder if the bluff alone will actually be enough to keep them in the backyard. Also reinforces how awesome goats are!

@Damfino: I actually would prefer them NOT to be able to climb that ladder! It would give them access to the house/yard, street, and neighbors' houses/yards. However, after taking a look at those pictures in the link that SalteyLove posted, I'm not sure they would even need a ladder to climb that bluff and escape my backyard!

@lilaalil: I appreciate you sharing your experience with this method! Currently I keep hay stocked in a hanging wire feeder for them to munch on at anytime, but more forage than hay is my goal.

@SalteyLove & lilaalil: Your points about goats preferring to eat all day rather than fill up all at once is well taken, though it puts another kink in my goatherd aspirations.

After reading yall's replies, I think you're right about daily 'herding' being less than practical. So I think that I'll give the free-roaming some test-drives then decide on the fence.

Also, @SalteyLove: I'll post pictures below of the goat-cave setup. * Please let me know what you think, and if you have any suggestions to make the setup more goat-friendly I am all ears. Please do not hold back, I am more than open to and would genuinely appreciate any criticism. I am brand new to this, so I need all of the advice I can get!*

The cave is actually open on both ends (thus technically more of a tunnel), so I installed a door halfway through to serve as the entry point to their pen. The cave itself is _mostly_ waterproof, but to keep them completely dry during heavy rains, and warm during extreme cold, I built a small structure for them to shelter in. Thus far they have spent most of their shelter/sleep time on the upper ledge next to the door (as far as I know&#8230;perhaps they are just climbing up there every time they hear me coming). I hope that once it gets cold or rains that they will find the shelter structure that I built suitable. It is kind of tight for 2 pygmy goats, but has more room than they take up when sleeping together on the upper ledge.

Another plus to fencing the entire property would be allowing them full access to the rock formation that they are currently sheltering in, as I am sure that they would love to climb all the way up/over/around (right now any passages/ledges that lead to the other side or over, and thus out of their enclosure, are blocked off by stacked rocks).


----------



## ZebAkers (Nov 29, 2016)

Image files were too large to upload all on this forum, so here is a link to an album with 25 pictures of my goat-cave setup. Let me know what yall think, and please do not hesitate to offer suggestions, advice, or criticism! Anything that would help me make my goats happier will be much appreciated!



http://imgur.com/nus13


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

It is totally do able! They just need to learn a call to come. This can be done by simply yelling something and offering them grain. Also something loud that is kinda scary that makes them run home. I let mine roam 800 acres with nothing but 4 strands of barbwire (cattle fence) that they can go threw. I have a subdivision behind me with the same kind of fence as well as a highway on the front side. Mine come when I call them, doesn't matter what time of day or where they are. I also don't feed grain unless I call them for feet trims or to come in at night when they are out. Sometimes they push their limits on where they are allowed to be, when I drive and check where the are and they are to the fence line I honk my horn and they run home. When they are scared they book it home. A car horn, bicycle horn, air horn, they don't like those and will go home. Since you plan to be with them I would get them used to coming to you when called and walk and call them home and give them a treat. 
Now goats won't just pick a spot and go for it. They like to move. It's really cool to watch actually. They will eat in this spot and move over there and eat and then another. I have 70 goats and when I let them out they run to the first area of trees and eat, the leader will go to the next and they just keep cruising.


----------



## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

LOVE your "goat cave"! Reminds me of this place in Arkansas where we hiked along a bunch of little shelter caves and tunnels under a bluff. Apparently the caves were inhabited by feral goats many years ago.


----------



## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

That looks like a wonderful place for goats. Mine would be so jealous. As they get bigger, you may want a larger shelter for them, but for now, I think they are probably in goatie heaven.


----------



## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

WOW - I need to figure out how to build a rock cave!!! That is so awesome. Our pygmies and Nigerians are very food motivated. So we feed them grain in the evening when we are ready for them to come in. Because they are foragers they are like wild horses - their daily foraging can take them far. We fenced ours in because they ended up at the neighbors after months of staying fairly close. I would be afraid of predators and them wandering too far with a large acreage behind you. You can use a cow bell or your call to teach them to come in. Always give grain to reinforce the desire to come. I just take the bucket out and start tapping it and here they come. I am so jealous of that rock formation. What a great place to play.


----------



## ZebAkers (Nov 29, 2016)

Thanks for everyone's feedback! 
*UPDATE*: 'Goatherding' has been going great, Fiona & Wynona do not stray far from home, just like you said. They wandered onto the neighbors property a few times during the first couple of days, but herding or gently nudging them back in the right direction works well and they seem to understand that they shouldn't be over there (it's been a few days since they have wandered over the property line). I've been letting them out daily as suggested, and they come RUNNING back when I shake a small bottle filled with grain for them. It is the cutest thing to watch them come stampeding back over the rocks! I reinforce their good behavior with a handful of sweet feed after they return. So far my goats have been just about perfect. They follow me around the property as I work, and do more than their share to clear the brush. Wynona has even discovered that she loves neck rubs, scratches, and pets, and Fiona is beginning to warm up to human contact as well. I could not be happier with the 2 kids I got. I feel like the luckiest goatherd in the world.


----------



## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

That is incredible! Love the goats on the shelf!


----------



## ZebAkers (Nov 29, 2016)

Well I may have spoken too soon... guess I should have knocked on wood as I praised my goat's good behavior!

As I mentioned before Fiona & Wynona usually follow me around while I work on the property, staying within eye's distance. However the other day when I cranked up the chainsaw, they put a little bit more distance between us (_I assume they didn't like the noise_). They stayed within eye's distance for the first half-hour, but soon wandered into the woods behind my neighbor's house. Thinking that the bluff was impassable beyond my yard, I let them explore on their own for a while (_assuming that they wouldn't have access to neighbor's yards or the street_). After 20 minutes I decided to go check on them, and to my dismay I found them on top of the bluff about a quarter mile down from my property! Turns out I am not the only house with access to the woods, and the goats were happily munching on greenery in the bushes behind a neighbor's driveway. Luckily the climb was easy enough for this human to follow, so I scaled the bluff and directed them back home. It took them a minute to get the message (_I think they were *really *enjoying grazing on top of the bluff, they seem to consistently seek out the highest ground available_), but as soon as I made it clear that they weren't welcome there they trotted straight home. They made it back in less than half the time it took me to follow them! Very smart creatures, who seem to understand me pretty well for only knowing me for a few weeks!

All of that being said, I have been working extra hard the past few days to erect fencing on each side of my property in order to stop them from wandering (and climbing) the bluff. I will fence the lower part of my property last, as they don't seem too keen on exploring downhill at the moment, and wandering in that direction will take them away from civilization (preferable in my case).


----------



## ZebAkers (Nov 29, 2016)

*CONCLUSION*:
_*I decided on fencing over herding. *_​
'Herding' worked _okay_ for a short time, but Fiona & Wynona slowly began pushing their boundaries as they grew more comfortable on their new property. Quickly realized that my the best bet was biting the bullet and purchasing/installing fencing. I finished fencing in the 1acre of hardwoods & thicket yesterday, and the feeling of relief was amazing! I can now let them roam all day long without worrying, and plus I feel so much better about the quality of life I am giving them. It is so great to have them follow me around the property happily munching on undergrowth, and not having to keep a constant eye on them!

Next goat-life upgrade will be a larger weather-proof shelter (for windy, rainy, or frigid days), but right now they seem more than content with their cave with small weather-proof bungalow within.

Thanks all for your advice and feedback, *love *my goats and the GoatSpot!


----------



## Galianogoatherd (Dec 20, 2016)

I have a dream of goat herding! I love going for goat walks but my goats don't always like to come out of their enclosure. I have had them for 3 months and they are getting more comfortable, but I really want to go for walks with them and show them that tasty blackberry patch, and wander about with them collecting herbs and blissing out....future goals.


----------

