# Nigerian does to Alpine buck



## HerdQueen

A couple of months ago my husband decided to buy 3 Nigerian goats. 1 of themwas a doe born here and the other 2 came from other farms. These people had 4 does. Well against advice given they purchased an alpine buck to use to breed. All are 2 yo ff. They were told do not give grain just hay, or run the risk of kids that are to big. Well they don't mlike to hear the goats blat its to annoying.

Yyesterday I got a phone call. Jewel is kidding should I just go to work and let her do her thing? No you need to be there to help her. She a couple minutes later I get another phone call. Will you come out I'm scared this is my first time. So Iwake up the kids and go over. 

There's Jewel pushing. She's not screaming just pushing. I watch her. Enough was enough so I go fishing. Broke her water and then the smell. I tell her get a vet now. My vet was to far away to come out so loaded jewel office call. 

I got a phone call. Jewel died, they saved a doeling, but a buck twice the other kids size was dead. Jewels uterus ruptured. Now the doeling was big I couldn't imagine how big he was and this poor little nigie trying to birth him.

I can't help but be angry with them for doing this to that doe, but not just her I have 3 does bred to nthat buck because my husband has the biggest heart when it comes too goats and he wanted to get the goats out of there.

Has anyone ever had a successful kidding with a Nigerian bred to an alpine? Or am I fighting a losing battle?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Oh my, that is terrible. I've no experience with breeding Nigerians to a full size buck, but I have had mini horse mares that were bred to quarter horse stallions (was not intended), and they were able to foal just fine, you just have to make double sure they aren't eating too much.

My first year with goats, all the kids were too big and stuck, or tangled. Every single kid had to be pulled, what great fun that was, not! So the next year, I feed them a bit less, everyone kidded just fine.
If the other does still have some time to go, I would either induce them now and rebred them to a small buck later, or be very careful about what they are fed and hope for the best.


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## NyGoatMom

Aww that's awful Erica  How did you guys end up with them? Did they decide to give up on goats?


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## kccjer

What a hard decision. I had the ND bred to the boer buck (no clue she was even bred until she went into labor). Tabitha was a champ...she is also a 3F. You will absolutely need to be there when these girls kid. Better yet, as soon as you see them ready to go haul them into the vet...right then and there. Mine turned out ok. A friend had the same situation as you and her's didn't turn out so good. The doe is alive but unbreedable and the doeling survived. You're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place on this one. I'd personally be pretty darn tempted to induce now and lose the babies.


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## ksalvagno

I am so sorry. That is such a tough situation.


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## Frosty

Do you have any idea when they are due to kid. If it was me I think I would induce them and lose the babys its to much for them small does.. But that is me.


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## HerdQueen

When I asked when they were bred. They had no clue. In fact they didn't think he bred them at all. They look like any minute.

I took grain away when they came here. I knew that was one thing I could do, and I know they didn't take grain away. 

I guess I have to pray for a lot of little kids in each doe. 

They still have goats, but I never realized the conditions they were in. They might as well have them in a corn crib. We live in the white mountains of New Hampshire way to cold for that. They are just people you can't tell anything too. When she called me yesterday she ntold me she's just gonna put that kid out there with a heat lamp. I got kinda mean and told her she had better bring that kid into the house or expect a dead kid. Brandon was just trying to help these girls out, even though I told him no. I can't handle this right now. He couldn't tell those goats no. 

They were trying to sell their herd. 4 Nigerian does, 3 Nigerian wethers, and the alpine buck. All grades. They were offered $2000 for all, which is way more nthen I would have expected to get. But when they asked the guy what he was going to do with them. He said well I'm gonna eat them. They backed out. They would have been well fed and cared for until they were harvested. 


I am home all the time, but I am going to be in the hospital for a few days. I do have a friend that has been through several kiddings with me, and a very experienced breeder that has volunteered to come assist at moments notice.

I was just looking for hope in what is very apparent to be a hopeless situation.


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## kccjer

Not what you needed to be worried about. Take a deep breath and know that you are doing all you can even if it doesn't feel like it. :hug: And it isn't entirely hopeless. The others may do just fine.


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## HerdQueen

I broke down last night and cried. I actually asked Brandon if it was my fault. I know its not, but that doe just suffered a death like that. Then I got really upset when she ,posted pics on Facebook bragging about her new little bottle baby. And everyone telling her how wonderful it was. It wasn't wonderful fishing in her goats uterus with the smell of death emanating from her.


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## kccjer

Can we say hormones big time? I know what you mean tho. You're only one woman...you can't save the world. And you can't fix stupid people...although a big hammer might make you feel better. 

Carmen, Oleo Acres LLC, NW Ks


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## Scottyhorse

Oh no, I am so sorry Erica  :hug:


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## NyGoatMom

:hug: :hug: Try not to worry too much....you have enough to worry about with your own pregnancy! You are a great person for even bothering with these goats as a lot of people would walk away :hug: They are in good hands and I know you will do all you can, and you must trust this other person because you obviously love your goats and trust them in her care....I am sure she will do everything possible to help them should they need it :hug:


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## canyontrailgoats

Wow, that's awful  . I can't imagine the pain and frustration you're going through right now.... but you're doing the best you can to help the goats and you're trying to straighten out the irresponsible owners, and that's all any of us could do in this situation.
I pray that all goes well with the other does, and with a vets assistance everything should turn out ok ! I'm hoping they have tiny triplets in there


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## HerdQueen

Thanks everyone for your support.

I do trust my stand in. I don't know what I would do with out her. She is a nurse and is very level headed. She loves goats as much as I do.

My hormones are making me batty! And everyone around me...


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## J.O.Y. Farm

Oh Erica! I'm so sorry...  this is not what you need right now... :/ I wish I was a tad closer or had some extra room here to help you out some...


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## HerdQueen

UPDATE WITH HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY NEWS!

Minnie kidded with a perfect Lil buck. Grain deprivation worked. She is still hog fat, I bounced her to see if there were more didn't feel anymore. I am giving her some space it was a hectic scene out there. She dropped him outside, cleaned him off and took off like a shot. Its a warm 18 outside. I ran around chasing her hollaring this is my kid get back here and take care of him! She is, he is nursing. Pics later.


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## J.O.Y. Farm

Oh yay!! Soo glad to hear it! And even a single buck kid with no problem!  

LOL! Glad she listened to you and is taking care of him


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## TDG-Farms

Most of the time a cross breeding like that will not be an issue. This is how mini's come to be  But as you mentioned, to much grain can make to big of babies and for this kind of kidding always good to be there to make sure.

As for the dead kid. Sorry you had to deal with that. My other half breaks down and cries when she has to pull out dead/decomposing kids. It is the one thing outta everything that we goat owners have to do, that she nearly can not stand.

Great news on the second doe!


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## J.O.Y. Farm

IMO.. The bigger breed should be the doe.. In this case, if they wanted mini Alpines.. They should have gotten an Alpine doe and bred it to a Nigie buck... I know (as we see here) it can turn out fine... But why take the chance of what happened to the first doe? That's JMHO...


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## kccjer

Yay!! So glad that one turned out good!!

Carmen, Oleo Acres LLC, NW Ks


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## ksalvagno

That is great!


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## LadySecret

My very first goats had a registered nigerian dwarf for a mom and a nubian sire. She had triplets and I know she was able to nurse all of them. I don't know if they had to be pulled but the buckling was smaller than his sisters for a long time. They matured to 70 lbs, 78 lbs, and 89 lbs. 

Don't give up on these girls. They may pull through fine.


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## Frosty

I am happy to hear that this one is fine. Will you fix him so he don't make babies that might be big. what will you do with does that might give birth to large ones. I know I am a worry wart.


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## HerdQueen

He will be weathered. After this kidding I have a ton of hope the other 2 will do fine. The one doe I suspect quads which should mean little babes, and the other looks like at least twins. Here is a picture of him. He is NO WHERE near the size of the doeling that was saved from that horrible kidding. And being a single he had the potentional to be way to big.


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## rebelINny

Glad this one worked out and they are both happy and healthy! Breeding a standard buck to a mini doe is NEVER a good choice. These should be accidents not ON PURPOSE! Not safe at all. Glad you were able to get the does and stop the grain, I'm sure that saved these two. Good job!


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## ksalvagno

Very cute little guy!


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## J.O.Y. Farm

He sure is a cutie  I'm so glad it ended well  I hope your other two girls do well 


Sent from my iPod touch using Goat Forum


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## HerdQueen

Another happy update. Rosie kidded at 4 this afternoon with twin doeling. First one is a cream color. Had to stretch her pooch over her head, but kid was positioned perfect. Once her head was delivered the rest of her slid right. While Rosie and I were tending to her I looked over and just in time I caught a little sundgau girl as she was getting launched out. She came out so fast I named her Flash. 

Next up is my most worrisome doe Roxi. SHE IS MASSIVE. Thinking that she is going to have a litter. I'm not so much worried about size, I'm more worried about the possibility of kids tangled in a knot.


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## Frosty

wow that is great news. Just one more to go. sure hope she does as well as the last two. Will be watching for news..


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## NyGoatMom

Rooting for you both! Congrats on the happy kidding....now how about yours?


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## J.O.Y. Farm

Whoo! Glad she went smoothly too!


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## ksalvagno

Great news and very cute!


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## kccjer

Awesome! Glad it's working out

Carmen, Oleo Acres LLC, NW Ks


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## HerdQueen

Well looks like Roxi is going today, she has fooled me before, but I honestly think today is her day.


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## NyGoatMom

Yay!! Happy kidding


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## J.O.Y. Farm

Good luck with her!


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## lottsagoats

I had a couple of Nigerians that were returned to me that had been bred to a Boer. They kidded just fine. Kids were smallish but grew like weeds as soon as they hit the ground. By the time they were a month old there were as big as mom! I did feed them grain, I feed all my goats grain 365 because the hay sucks.


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## nchen7

so cute! congrats on the babies! happy kidding for the last one to go!


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## Abra

HerdQueen said:


> I ran around chasing her hollaring this is my kid get back here and take care of him!


That made me laugh SO hard!!! And I am SO glad it worked out for you with two out of the three! Hopefully the 3rd will be just as flawless! 

Babies are CUTE as buttons too! LOVE the little yellow-knitted sweater!


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## HerdQueen

Well... Roxi crossed the rainbow bridge this evening. This was our toughest kidding ever. Her bone pattern was so small she could have been bred to a Nigerian and I believe the result would have been the same. Couldn't even get my hand past her bones. First kid is a buckling. She got love him and talk to him. Second kid was a large buck that got very very stuck. He tried to live, but he just gave up. Third was a doeling that was saved. Brother and sister are in the house and doing well.

Long long evening, and gonna be a long long night...


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## NyGoatMom

Ugh....so sorry  
Glad the two kids lived, so sad about the doe


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## OakHollowRanch

I am sorry you lost her, but I am so glad the kids and the other two moms are okay. :hug:


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## nchen7

oh no! I'm so sorry about Roxy!!! :hug: hope you are able to get some sleep tonight....


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## HerdQueen

The kids were really good. Surprisingly so. They are taking to a bottle just fine. The buckling is the cou Clair, the doeling is the cou blanc. Although sad, the boys are very content to be raising babies. It has been 2 years since we have had a bottle baby in the house.


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## HerdQueen

Sorry the pics are upside down, I don't know how to fix it


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## J.O.Y. Farm

Oh my...  so sorry Erica..  at least you saved two kids. 

They sure are cute


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## kccjer

I'm sorry. The babies are sure cute tho and your human kids will be happy. Guess 2 more babies to take care of with your new one is just a couple more, right??? YOU get some rest...you're going to need it in the next few weeks.


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## ksalvagno

I'm sorry about Roxy. Glad 2 made it. Very cute!


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## Stacykins

HerdQueen said:


> I broke down last night and cried. I actually asked Brandon if it was my fault. I know its not, but that doe just suffered a death like that. Then I got really upset when she ,posted pics on Facebook bragging about her new little bottle baby. And everyone telling her how wonderful it was. It wasn't wonderful fishing in her goats uterus with the smell of death emanating from her.


Honestly, that woman sounds toxically stupid, someone who it might be better to sever ties with if you can. Being around someone who is so willfully ignorant will just cause you more stress and heartache, something nobody needs.

Sorry for the loss of your doe. I am glad you were able to save the kids, but that doesn't make it easier, losing a doe you love. At least the other two came through kidding alright!


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## HerdQueen

Rosie was touch and go yesterday, I started supplementing her kids with a bottle. She never went down and diligently nursed what little milk she was making. I drenched her, gave probiotics, vitamin b, and wormed her. She had quit eating and drinking. Today she turned the corner and started eating again. Phew. I feel like the little engine that could. "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can! Choo choo!". Although it should be coo-coo! 

I'm wondering if the buck wasn't alpine Nubian cross. Everyone of his kids look like Nigerian bodies, on alpine legs, with Nubian ears.

I have to make nice with her. But I will never sell her another animal, I will never waste my breath giving her advice again. I believe her kid the vet saved is dead, she won't update on how she's doing. Which means she is down to 1 buck and 3 wethers. I will keep my fingers crossed she learned a lesson, but I am very full of doubt.


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## ksalvagno

That is a real shame that the goats had to suffer. Hopefully she won't buy anymore.


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## HerdQueen

Rosie layed on one of her does killing her. When it rains it poor's...


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## NyGoatMom

Oh no! How old were they?? Oh I hate hearing they do that! I worry about that awful  So sorry Erica :hug:


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## ksalvagno

Aww that is so sad. Hopefully she won't lay on anymore.


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## HerdQueen

She was 3 days old. Flash her sister seems pretty quick on her feet. Although I am stunned she is already eating hay. She seems to be in good condition she's putting on weight not cold just seems really early for hay munching. Well at least does laying on their kids isn't contagious just heart breaking.


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## NyGoatMom

Wow...that's young to eat hay! Enough heartbreak already.......I have seen a ton of heartbreaking threads


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## HerdQueen

I try not to read what I think is going to be a heartbreak thread, it gets me so worked up! Especially after this tough week, I am on edge and weepy. Come on Madelyn I ready for bliss!


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## nchen7

awwww!!! :hug: you don't need this right now!!! I'm so sorry about all the heart ache with these goats right now. it's just so sad. but, know it's not your fault!!!


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## HerdQueen

I just haven't had a season like this before. I mean we have lost kids, but it has been stillborns in quad kiddings. This is the first year I have lost a doe. A sweet heart that spent her last moments still trying to take care of her kid. OK crying now...


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## nchen7

no! no crying!!! not your fault!!! you're doing amazing, esp since you're ready to pop a kiddo out this week! you're super woman in my books!

I didn't read many kidding threads last year, but it seems like this year people there has been a LOT of weird kidding issues. it doesn't seem like a normal year.....


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## HerdQueen

Ok crying spell over. Sorry bout that.

I brought flash in. She was trying her hardest between both teats to get some milk. Checked her dam, she seems empty. Gave some milk out of a bottle. Maybe I'm just being over protective? Her energy level is good, she is playing with the house kids. Her lids are dark red, she wasn't coldor shivering. Should I just keep her in put her back out with her dam? Rosie did go off feed after kidding but she is eating now. Gosh I feel like I can't even think straight.


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## NyGoatMom

No need to apologize...I'd be cryin' too if I was in your shoes! 
I'd say it's your call....go with your gut. Does she need to be in?


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## nchen7

yes, go with your gut. it's easy to say and hard to do.

glad your crying spell is over! :hug: you're doing great. i would be a blubbering mess way worse than you if i were in your shoes right now.....


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## HerdQueen

I'm split down the middle. I really really really do not like bottle feeding kids. You know living vicariously thru my goat reliving the birthing nursing experience and all. No really I don't like bottle feeding if I don't have to. Then again I know when a doe is doing a really good job and there is no questioning it. Then I'm like in for a penny in for a pound. I'm just afraid to be wrong and go out and find flash dead too.


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## kccjer

Oh hon. I am so sorry. You are doing everything possible. It is so hard when there are years like this and it doesn't help that your hormones are wacked right now. Cry. And then pick yourself up. I would say keep her in. You are going to worry yourself sick if you don't. 

Carmen, Oleo Acres LLC, NW Ks


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## NyGoatMom

HerdQueen said:


> I'm split down the middle. I really really really do not like bottle feeding kids. You know living vicariously thru my goat reliving the birthing nursing experience and all. No really I don't like bottle feeding if I don't have to. Then again I know when a doe is doing a really good job and there is no questioning it. Then I'm like in for a penny in for a pound. I'm just afraid to be wrong and go out and find flash dead too.


:ROFL: :lol: :ROFL:


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## kccjer

Dunno why you're trying for the living vicariously thing when you're about to actually live it. *shaking head in disbelief* ROFL

Carmen, Oleo Acres LLC, NW Ks


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## HerdQueen

I took a bucket of molasses water out to Rosie. She seemed very content to not have her kid out with her, and Flash seems very content to be in. So I guess there is my answer. 

Have to giggle about living vicariously through the goats. I guess now I am gonna find out what its like raising quads. Madelyn won't be lacking any playmates. Besides Roscoe my lab LOVES baby goats. He has already taken on the roll of mommy. He bathes them and he is so gentle. Wish he could feed them. Gonna have a bunch of goats thinking they are Labrador retrievers.


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## kccjer

Just make sure you get good video of them retrieving ducks after you shoot them...especially out of the water. Just saying....

Carmen, Oleo Acres LLC, NW Ks


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## HerdQueen

Lol wouldn't that be a sight!


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## nchen7

you would have so many hits on youtube, make your millions that way!

too bad there's no way of strapping on an udder to the dog and let him do ALL the work. lol!!!


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## HerdQueen

Rosie's milk came in! Flash and mama are happy to be together again. What a relief. Sometimes we all just need a break.


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## nchen7

awesome!!!!! glad it's worked out!


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## ksalvagno

Glad her milk came in!


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## kccjer

:sigh: I was so looking forward to those "retrieving goats" :angel2::laugh: Glad something is finally working out so you can relax and get ready for tomorrow!!


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## J.O.Y. Farm

Glad to hear it!!  :stars:

Yes, and good luck tomorrow!  so exciting


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## TDG-Farms

I made a mistake in an earlier post about saying this is where minis come from. Not suppose to breed a full sized buck to a ND but rather the other way around.


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## NyGoatMom

Happy for you Erica! Let us know as soon as possible when you are done "kidding" yourself! :lol:


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## HerdQueen

And getting ready I am! Today has been buying groceries, placed my order at the feed store for delivery, then laundry. There is wifi at the hospital so I will have my tablet to post some selfies with the baby.

Dave, it's ok I was smelling what you were stepping in. lol ;-)


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## TDG-Farms

... I thought that shower helped but I guess not


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## Frosty

Hang in there Erica. You have certainly had a rough spot in the road. Just think tomorrow you will have one to cuddle in your arms and snuggle away. Wishing you the best and can't wait to see pictures of the baby.


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## J.O.Y. Farm

HerdQueen said:


> And getting ready I am! Today has been buying groceries, placed my order at the feed store for delivery, then laundry. There is wifi at the hospital so I will have my tablet to post some selfies with the baby.
> 
> Dave, it's ok I was smelling what you were stepping in. lol ;-)


Oh yay!  I can't wait to see her!  good luck tomorrow!


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