# Skinny goat will only crawl on her knees... help...



## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm new to this forum, I've read it a lot, and it has helped tremendously as I have only had goats for about 1.5 years, but I'm hoping maybe someone out there has run into what I have now. I've asked all my local "goat friends" but they are as much at a loss as I am. I'll apologize in advance for a long story, but I'm hoping the details may help.

Last March, I had a 5 year old Boer doe kid with triplets. It was a hard labor, and I had to pull all three kids. All was well for about 3 weeks, and then I noticed she was losing weight. I upped her alfalfa, but the weight loss continued, and her milk production reduced. I gave her calcium, which perked her up, but she continued to spiral. Her eye pigment was very light, so I wormed her with Ivomec, and gave her red cell and vitamin B. She would intermittently go off her feed, but the vitamin B would help her regain her appetite. Around this time I also gave her a round of Biomycin and Probios. Nothing I did seemed to be the right answer. She'd perk up, I'd think we were on the right track, and then she'd crash again, each time spiraling down worse. At some point she started knee crawling. I switched from B12 to B1 and this helped for awhile. Then one day, I went out, and she was laying flat, unable to get up on her own. At this point, she was a bag of bones. I decided it was time to put her down. We had fought this thing for four months at that point.

Her three doelings were undersize for their age, but otherwise healthy. I had a lady looking to lease a couple goats for the summer, and she picked out two of them. The one that stayed here thrived, and has caught up in size. I expected the same from the other two.

Three weeks ago, the other two came home. They had not been fed properly, and were kept in a horse trailer most of the time. Big lesson learned, and I feel horrible that it was at their expense. One of them had diarrhea, so I started them slowly on medicated grain, and alfalfa. I also wormed them with Ivomec, and gave them each some Probios. One of them is already 1000 times better. She quickly gained weight, and is acting like a kid again.

The doeling that initially had diarrhea is not doing as well. She perked up for a few days after the worming, but she hasn't gained any weight. Two days ago, she started knee crawling, but would still stand up. As of today, she can only crawl around on her knees. Her appetite is great, and she seems otherwise healthy, but looking at her is like looking in a mirror at her mom. Maybe I'm being oversensitive because of what I went through with her mom. I've been giving her red cell, and I'll give her BoSe tomorrow (I initially overlooked Selenium Defincency because of the similarities), but I'm really at a loss. Has anyone seen anything like this before?

I would take her to a vet, but that's a losing proposition around here. The last time I took a goat to the vet, I was charged $90 to be told that they didn't have a clue, but would be more than happy to perform a necropsy when she died.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

First thought would be she still has some worms needing to be taken care of. 

Second thought maybe thiamine deficiency though she would deteriorate rapidly. 

Third thought is, was the mum tested for Johnes?

How old is this doe?


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

The doe is eight months old. I will try a different wormer in case there's some resistance. I keep Safeguard on hand as well as Ivomec. Hindsight is always 20/20, and I should have tested mom, but at the time I was told it was uncommon around here, and her symptoms weren't right.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I would not use safeguard, unless you think it's tape worms, go with valbazen, not for pregnant does. It could be cocci, I would go ahead and treat with Sulmet or Baycox, symptoms look different in adults. I would treat them with Bo-Se, and also, B-Complex.

It may be worth it to do some blood testing, we had someone here have a goat with Johnes, better to find out sooner rather then later. Good luck.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

My first thought was a stronger wormer. Safegaurd should be used at 3 x the label dosage for 3 to 5 days. 
You could get a tube of horse wormers, such as Quest or Quest plus(2 times the dosage for horses) and try that, It would for sure help rule out a lot of the worms. the reason I suggest the horse paste, is because it is around $12.00 for a tube and will treat 3 to 5 goats, compared to buying a bottle of Cydectin for cattle or sheep which will start at closer to $100.00 

Another thought is actually treating for coccidiosis instead of just using the medicated feed. Perhaps the medicated feed and ivermectin was enough to lower the counts of parasites in the one doe, but just not enough to help out the other doe. Using Corid or Sulfa-diemthoxine for 5 days orally, may also help. With a young animal like that I always consider coccidiosis as a potential problem. 

Liver flukes is another possibility, and only Ivermectin Plus treats that. It is not the same as the plus in Quest plus horse wormer, the plus in Quest plus, is for tapeworms.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would be getting a fecal done to include coccidia before you do any more worming. You need to know what parasites you are dealing with before you treat.


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## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

... And I agree that the goats are most likely mineral lacking.
If they were in the horse trailer lots, I would also supplement with VitD.

It's going to take a bit to get them back into shape but a fecal is your first action. While at the vets maybe ask for multimin? It's something like that. Others can chime in here for me because I don't use it but it might be a good shot to have on these goats. That is given via weight - so get a weight if you can.

HTH,


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with Keren, you need to get a fecal done, just guess treatment, is going to make her resistant to worms, it may be cocci. But test for worms and cocci to make sure.

Her gut may need probiotics and fortified vit B complex.


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

I would be treating her for coccidia ASAP....


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

All the parasite possibilities have been well covered, I'm going to ask how her hooves are? Knee walking can be the result of founder.... having an increase in good feed though with the best of intentions can sometimes cause this issue with the hooves.


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

Thank you for all the suggestions. I just dropped off a fecal sample at the vet's office, and should hear back later today on that. It seems like my little goats are always dropping samples until I am actually waiting on a donation. 

We are Selenium deficient in this area, our BoSe dosage is 2.5 to 3ml per 100lbs. This little girl is about 40lbs right now, so I gave her 1 ml this morning. Unfortunately, she made a run for it as I was injecting it, so she didn't get a full dose. I plan on giving her another .5ml later today. I'll also give her some fortified B complex.

The wormer I used two weeks ago was Ivomec Plus. I gave her 1ml orally.

Thinking worse case, on Johne's, isn't she too young to be showing clinical symptoms? I talked a little with a vet, who told me it would be uncommon to see symptoms before she wad 2 years old. I was told testing at her age would be inconclusive, with the exception possibly of fecal testing. However, given her current condition, if it were Johne's, she'll be gone before the results come back. Unfortunately, if this is the case, it seems I'll be better off with a necropsy than testing. 

Hopefully, the fecal will just come back with a high cocci count, and I can start treating her for that.


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

On the hooves. I trimmed them back yesterday, and checked them out closely. Her hooves look very healthy. Her inability to stand doesn't seem to be associated with any pain in her hooves. When I try to stand her up, it's like her front legs are just too weak. By supporting her chest, I can balance her enough to keep her upright, but she collapses when I remove my hand.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree with the rest on worms, but just in case Im going threw a goat with founder (spch). I got the doe from a lady I know very well, not big on grain, she started out just fine (I am also not a big grainer), then she would rest on her knees, then would walk on her knees, and now spends most of her time laying down. I had my brother look at her who is training to be a horse shoer and the man he is working with is big on 'problem hoofs'. He belives its founder. Her ankles are very hot to the touch and now the hoofs are spreading apart (the best I can explain). Just thought I would share if the above does not work.....I wish you the best luck.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Are her knee's swollen?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Yeah too young for cae or johnes even thpugh mums situation.fits. Gey a faecal dome


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

You guys are great! Thank you! I just received a call from the vet and the fecal sample contained high levels of cocci. I'm going to start her on treatment, and hopefully that will clear this up and get her better.

I know it may sound silly, but I was the one who had to put her mom down. That was a first for me, and I told mom I'd take care of the girls that she had fought admirably to raise. Granted she doesn't know the difference, but I do, so I've got a special spot for these girls.


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## rssgnl27 (May 9, 2012)

liz said:


> All the parasite possibilities have been well covered, I'm going to ask how her hooves are? Knee walking can be the result of founder.... having an increase in good feed though with the best of intentions can sometimes cause this issue with the hooves.


This could definitely be responsible for how shes acting- I would look into it! Also, maybe look into CAE, your vet can test for this as well. I don't think its a deworming issue- although maybe for coccidia? With her mothers symptoms CAE could be a very real possibilty.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

SCRMG said:


> You guys are great! Thank you! I just received a call from the vet and the fecal sample contained high levels of cocci. I'm going to start her on treatment, and hopefully that will clear this up and get her better.
> 
> I know it may sound silly, but I was the one who had to put her mom down. That was a first for me, and I told mom I'd take care of the girls that she had fought admirably to raise. Granted she doesn't know the difference, but I do, so I've got a special spot for these girls.


 Glad you had the fecal done, now you can start treatment and get her well.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

SCRMG said:


> You guys are great! Thank you! I just received a call from the vet and the fecal sample contained high levels of cocci. I'm going to start her on treatment, and hopefully that will clear this up and get her better.
> 
> I know it may sound silly, but I was the one who had to put her mom down. That was a first for me, and I told mom I'd take care of the girls that she had fought admirably to raise. Granted she doesn't know the difference, but I do, so I've got a special spot for these girls.


She is going to be feeling better very soon with the right treatment. Glad you found an answer. Please repeat your coccidiosis treatment after you are done with the first round in 21 days. She will need some time to recover and coccidiosis can bloom every 21 days.


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

I've gotten 3 doses of the coccidiousus treatment in this little girl, and the good news is, I can already see some weight gain. Baby steps are good, and she was horribly emaciated when I started the treatment.

The bad news is, she still can't get up off her knees. I've treated several horses with founder in the past, and if it's anything similar in goats, she doesn't have the right symptoms. There is no heat in her hooves or lower legs, and she's not avoiding standing or putting pressure on her legs, she just can't do it. Three days ago, if I stood her up, she would fall as soon as I quit supporting her. Today, I can stand her up, and she can remain in that position until she tries to move. I guess this is progress. Is it possible that she was SO emaciated, that it's just going to take time for her to get strong enough? I attached a picture of her to show how skinny she still is. I just took it today when I was standing her up.

The one thing I notice when she's standing is that she's not getting full use out of her knee. She's not extending the joint to the point of locking it, so when she tries to move a leg, the unlocked support leg crumbles. In a lot if ways, it reminds me of a selenium defficent newborn. I tried giving her 1.5ml of BoSe on Wednesday, but she kept wiggling everytime I tried to inject her so I don't honestly know how much, if any, actually made it into her system. Should I try again? I know I could overdose her on it, so I've been hesitant to try it.


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## Zarafia (Mar 25, 2012)

I see what you mean about her not straightening her legs. I wonder if she is having issues with her tendons. After not straightening her legs for a week or two, her tendons might not want to stretch without pain. (I'm going through it with my ankle right now. I can't flex my ankle without pretty nasty pain, even though I'm not putting much weight on it. I have to force myself to stretch my ankle. Once it's stretched a few times the pain is less.)
So I'd say that doing gentle stretch extentions on her front legs might help a little.
BTW, if she foundered, she probably wouldn't still have heat in her feet. That only lasts the first day or two. The fever in the feet does serious damage though. It can kill the laminae (sp?). The laminae is the tissue that attatches the hoof wall to the rest of the body. It is as if you hit your thumbnail with a hammer; for you the thumbnail will eventually fall off and regrow. If the damage is that severe in a hoofed animal the entire hoof can slough off. It's horrible and excruciatingly painful. I've seen it happen to a horse.
In less severe, but still serious cases the hoof wall loosens enough that the bones in the foot rotate. The animal may recover enough to live afterwards, but they will most likely require special trimming for the rest of their lives. And in the case of a horse or pony they should not be ridden much or at all depending on the severity.
I know that in the case of horses, other illnesses can cause founder as a side-effect, such as enteritis (sp?). That is how the worst case of founder I've ever seen happened. The mare had enteritis and was at the UF Vet School being treated for that. She then foundered.
The mare was 10 months pregnant (out of 11 months for horses) and the owner decided to keep her alive, on treatment for pain, till she foaled. Poor mare went almost 12 months before foaling and then lost her baby just after birth because the baby was so drugged with fentinyl (major painkiller the mare was on). 
That mare could not have survived her founder. It was too severe.
But your goat could possibly survive if she has foundered. 
Good luck and keep us posted.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Sorry, with out knowing how much you got in her it is hard to say. Maybe just give her another 1/2 cc. 
What about giving her nurtri-drench orally for a couple days? I can't remember what all you have tried with her. 
She looks to me like she was in fairly bad shape, and it sounds like she needs more time. She looks dehydrated. But I have never had one do that, and I have had some in pretty bad shape. 
Have you given her electrolytes? I love Save A CAf. I have seen it really perk them up. How hard is she to drench? 

Sounds to me she is heading in the right direction.

I don't think it is founder, she just looks to me to be very weak.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You might need to do some therapy on her legs too if she has been doing this for a while.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I've seen some very good results using Replamin Plus with malnourished goats. Here is where you get it http://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/details/Replamin-Gel-and-Replamin-Gel-Plus/498-200.html

I would guess that she may have nutritional rickets from the way she was cared for and the Cocci not letting her use the nutrients in her food. In a young goat with growing bones it will usually correct it's self once the proper minerals are supplied to her.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

with high cocci counts make sure to follow with a dose of thiamine after last dose of medication and repeat 5 day sequence 21 days later and another 21 after that


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## rssgnl27 (May 9, 2012)

Look into CAE!

"*The Nervous Form of CAE*
All breeds of goats can be affected as can both sexes, and most individuals first show signs between one and four months of age. The problem is  one of progressive weakness (paresis) of the hind limbs leading to eventual paralysis. The early paresis may be perceived as lameness, incoordination or weakness in one or both rear legs. Knuckling over of the feet and difficulty in rising may follow until such time that the animal is unable to rise at all. The course of the disease is from several days to several weeks. Despite the progressive paralysis, the kid will usually remain bright and alert and continue to eat and drink. Mild pneumonia may be present. The development of these signs results from inflammation in the spinal cord induced by the virus. Nerves which control motor function of the hind limbs are progressively destroyed."

Fias Farm


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## SCRMG (Oct 24, 2012)

This morning, this little doeling met me at the gate standing on all four feet! She was still weak, and easily knocked over by her rambunctious sister, but I was encouraged. By this afternoon, she was able to walk away from me when I came out with her medicine. Then this evening, I watched her running! She still has a ways to go, but I am happy to see her moving in the right direction. I've already marked 21 days on my calender for repeating the treatment. Thank you everybody for all the great advice! I have been so discouraged by the vet, that I honestly would not have thought to run a fecal had so many of you not suggested it.


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## SDBoerGoats (Mar 14, 2012)

Awesome news! Sounds like progress to me!


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## fd123 (May 29, 2012)

This is GREAT NEWS!!! Congrats on saving her!! Its SUPER NICE to hear about a good outcome once in a while!!


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Fantastic!!!!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

So great!! I'm so glad she has you caring for her!


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

That is fantastic!!!!! I'm so glad your little girl is on the mend!!!


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Great news!


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## Texas.girl (Dec 20, 2011)

:stars::wahoo::clap:


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