# Deciding on Grains



## NatalieRyan (Aug 30, 2020)

Now that my little guy is feeling better, I was thinking of giving these two a proper diet.

I've been feeding them orchard hay at night and they have been getting pasture during the day. I was feeding Black Oil Sunflower Seeds at two quarts a piece (four pounds) which is a lot now that I've actually looked.

But, I'm pretty confident that this is not a properly sustained diet! XD

So, I was thinking of buying this :








I trust DuMor and their products and looking at the nutritional facts, I really like what's in it, however, I'm not sure if the fibre content or protein content is too high. It also contains Ammonium Chloride which seems to be good for goats. I'm just wondering what you all thought of this feed, or feeds you recommend. I would also like to know if I should add a second feed/grain/seed to their diet with this.

Thank you!


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Def too much BOSS. I think it's only a couple of tablespoons worth per goat. I like to give 16% protein (14-18% is reasonable...18% is what I give my milkers) for growing animals. I give it to my bucks during rut season too. I think for my bucks we use Dumor but it's a different one maybe...it's ok. BUt I only feed it for 2-3 months. We have a custom made 18% grain and they used to get that until they picked out what they wanted and wasted the rest. (It's textured)

But they mostly get alfalfa hay and grass hay. And sometimes alfalfa pellets. They really only get 1-1.5 lbs each of grain a day per buck. The rest is hay or alfalfa pellets. They're all between 120-150# currently. 

My girls are strictly on Alfalfa hay, alfalfa pellets and a little grass hay. When they freshen, they start on the 18% dairy ration mix in addition.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Do you have wethers? Here is a very helpful flow chart made by @NigerianDwarfOwner707 that tells you appropriate diets for male goats. I agree about the BOSS being way too much. I'm surprised they aren't scouring at that amount. A tablespoon or two is all they really need.


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## CBPitts (Jan 29, 2020)

There are hard waters that aren’t high calcium too so the more you know about your water, land, and hay the better off you are. 

We don’t give bucks any grains at all unless in rut. They get fed good hay and some alfalfa pellets. That’s it.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

CBPitts said:


> There are hard waters that aren't high calcium too so the more you know about your water, land, and hay the better off you are.
> 
> We don't give bucks any grains at all unless in rut. They get fed good hay and some alfalfa pellets. That's it.


Mhmm, notice how the chart says "hard (high calcium) water"!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I really need to know your water source @NatalieRyan , and how hard it is and high in certain minerals.

i.e. well water, city water, filtered, spring: hard, soft, etc.

Hard water may:

Leave white residue or deposits on sinks and dishes (calcium) have a sulfur/eggy smell sometimes, or leave orange staining on sinks and tubs.


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## NatalieRyan (Aug 30, 2020)

We have well water. Definitely high in calcium and other minerals. I used an aquarium test strip on it a while back (for future fish babies). Because we do have some harmful toxins in the water, I've been using an RV filter to fill up the water troughs.



NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I really need to know your water source @NatalieRyan , and how hard it is and high in certain minerals.
> 
> i.e. well water, city water, filtered, spring: hard, soft, etc.
> 
> ...


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

With the filter does it seem to help the residue from high calcium?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All good advice.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

With that much BOSS..I would not feed any grain at all to your boys. Hay, browse, alfalfa and loose minerals only. I would also Add Ammonium chloride daily as prevention to UC.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

How old is the goat by the way?


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## NatalieRyan (Aug 30, 2020)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> How old is the goat by the way?


They are a year now. EDIT: They would probably be a year and half. They were guessed at 4-6 months when we first got them.

I'm also weaning them off of BOSS because I didn't find it that adequate for goats. The filter on their water is said to remove any hard minerals and I've not noticed any calcium residues on any of the troughs.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

If they are a year old now, they should be fine on just hay and no grain products.

If they do need weight, I would do NO BOSS. Dumor grain fed 50/50 with lespedeza pellets or 60/40(grain being the 60) dumor grain to alfalfa pellets. And not a lot each, no more than 1/2 cup at each feeding.


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## NatalieRyan (Aug 30, 2020)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> If they are a year old now, they should be fine on just hay and no grain products.
> 
> If they do need weight, I would do NO BOSS. Dumor grain fed 50/50 with lespedeza pellets or 60/40(grain being the 60) dumor grain to alfalfa pellets. And not a lot each, no more than 1/2 cup at each feeding.


Okay, thank you! Would you recommend any supplements for them? Or because they are whethers is that unnecessary?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

All goats need a quality loose mineral. They are plenty old enough to be off feed product. Def. Add Ammonium chloride to their diet to help prevent UC..especially if they were wethered before 4 to 6 months old. Worth the effort for their health. 

Best wishes


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## NatalieRyan (Aug 30, 2020)

Seriously guys, thank you so much! I've learned a lot and feel a bit better knowing what these two need and should have. Thank you all again!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Ammonium chloride is fine to use but it's not the be all end all, you need to have a balanced diet.

If you do use ammonium chloride, make sure to use it in a pulse dosing frequency, i.e. for 3 days straight once a month, not daily.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

You might want to Research Dumor feeds. They are a decent brand..but not always good on the phosphorus : calcium ratio. I prefer Purina Goat Grower for my bucklings. I dont have wethers. 3 Bucklings and 17 does & doelings. I can put up to 5 lbs of muscle mass on my bucklings with goat grower. I do use Deraferm loose minerals and hay free choice. I give mine a small amount if Ammonium Chloride about every other week. Mine are drinking well water also. But honestly the best person I know to ask would be your county extension office..since they work in your area and have dealt with all these concerns. Hope this helps you.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Ammonium chloride is fine to use but it's not the be all end all, you need to have a balanced diet.
> 
> If you do use ammonium chloride, make sure to use it in a pulse dosing frequency, i.e. for 3 days straight once a month, not daily.


Ot is absolutely fine to give ac daily to wethers. It keeps their irine acidic so their bodies do not have a happy place to actually make stones.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Iirc you have wethers. Hay, forage and pasture, a good loose mineral, ac for just in case is truly all they have to have. If you want to give them pellet...a handful of alfalfa pellet twice a day is ok too. Boss in limited amounts (a teaspoon or two)....like a treat a few times a week is all mine get it in winter for a tad extra fatty stuff is fine too. 

The most important thing with wethers is the calcium to phosperous ratio. We have very hard water here and this is what my wether gets and he does just fine along with our bucks. I had a wether with stones once and after i learned how to feed him and he did get ac daily he never got anymore.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Sfgwife said:


> Ot is absolutely fine to give ac daily to wethers. It keeps their irine acidic so their bodies do not have a happy place to actually make stones.


Ammonium chloride does acidify the urine and is good for wethers, however, it has been studied to be most effective when given in a* pulse dosing method. *Urine pH studies have shown that when feeding AC for long periods of time, it begins to lose its strength and does not acidify urine as well as it should. There needs to be breaks in between the time one feeds ammonium chloride for maximum strength.

When feeding grain, it should be given a couple times a week as a pulse dose.

If just using it without grain as an extra precaution, it's actually best to give it for about a week straight every month.

This prevents it from losing its strength.

Please don't forget that is is a chemical, and too much can cause ammonia toxicity as well as reduced efficacy.

I'm not against ammonium chloride but for maximum effectively and safety in a wether's diet (which is what I have dedicated my time and research to) it should be given either 3 days on 4 days off/ a few times a week when a goat is on a high phosphorus diet, or for a week or two once a month.


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## NatalieRyan (Aug 30, 2020)

So, I decided to buy the DuMor feed as a treat for them. As there is Ammonium Chloride in it, how much would you recommend feeding? Between the two of them tonight they received a quarter of a quart of pellets.


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## AndersonRanch (Oct 18, 2020)

NatalieRyan said:


> So, I decided to buy the DuMor feed as a treat for them. As there is Ammonium Chloride in it, how much would you recommend feeding? Between the two of them tonight they received a quarter of a quart of pellets.


Look on the back of the bag and see if it gives you a recommended amount. It should say something like X pounds per X body weight. I believe you will want to follow that since it has the AC in there and your wanting them to get the full dose. Hopefully sfwife jumps back on and tells me if I'm correct or not but I would assume so, that's how it is with medicated feed, but let's be sure  Whatever the amount is though your going to want to work up to it. It's a new feed for these boys so introduce slowly. 
I think the added AC is a good idea. It gives a little buffer if your cah is not absolutely correct. It is quite amazing how one bale of hay, for example, can differ from another just by the conditions it was grown in. My parents decided to be hay growers, we tested the hay and just from one section of a field to another there was a difference. That was a huge eye opener for me. So unless you literally test EVERYTHING they are going to eat it's not going to be 100% spot on. Close, but I think that's where the AC comes in handy. Just my 2 cents on the topic


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## NatalieRyan (Aug 30, 2020)

Thank you! They had % of bodyweight recommendations, but after the a.c. topic was covered I just want to make sure! I bought a feeder trough for them too to make feeding it to them easier to monitor.



AndersonRanch said:


> Look on the back of the bag and see if it gives you a recommended amount. It should say something like X pounds per X body weight. I believe you will want to follow that since it has the AC in there and your wanting them to get the full dose. Hopefully sfwife jumps back on and tells me if I'm correct or not but I would assume so, that's how it is with medicated feed, but let's be sure  Whatever the amount is though your going to want to work up to it. It's a new feed for these boys so introduce slowly.
> I think the added AC is a good idea. It gives a little buffer if your cah is not absolutely correct. It is quite amazing how one bale of hay, for example, can differ from another just by the conditions it was grown in. My parents decided to be hay growers, we tested the hay and just from one section of a field to another there was a difference. That was a huge eye opener for me. So unless you literally test EVERYTHING they are going to eat it's not going to be 100% spot on. Close, but I think that's where the AC comes in handy. Just my 2 cents on the topic


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

In my opinion, AC in feeds is in too small of a quantity to do anything - I always recommend feeding LESS feed and separate ammonium chloride. I will never put a wether on the recommended amount of feed on a bag because it is too much for them.

We have just gone over this - they do not need grain. Some people kill wethers with kindness, grain isn’t a treat, it’s a supplement when goats need it and if they don’t need it, it should be cautioned. I am trying to give your boys the maximum chance for not getting urinary calculi!

If you’re deciding against that option because you want to give grain as a treat (and I want to note that I have seen small amounts of grain, even just a “treat” build up and cause urinary calculi with or without ammonium chloride. Grain is something that some wethers do not tolerate well and it just perpetually clogs them up, so I don’t risk it), please be sure to offer it in no greater quantities than 1/2 cup, and alongside a small handful of alfalfa pellets. Disregard the amount of ammonium chloride in the feed and give your goats ammonium chloride on top of their feed for 3 days on, 4 days off, continued on.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

NatalieRyan said:


> So, I decided to buy the DuMor feed as a treat for them. As there is Ammonium Chloride in it, how much would you recommend feeding? Between the two of them tonight they received a quarter of a quart of pellets.


Since you want to do the grain for them... if you are going to feed it daily like this... I would do half grain and half alfalfa pellet to boost the calcium. Then i would get ammonium chloride and every day sprinkle it in their food at the proper dose. Feed each in a different feeder so each is getting their full dose of the ac. What andersonranch said is correct by not feeding the amount per weight they will not get enough ac so it is kinda useless therefore add more into their feed. It will not keep that urine acidic enough to deter stones amd crystals. Feeding grain to wethers is tricky business for stones but they also tend to get to be chunky monkies as well. So just watch their body condition too. Good luck with your new lil guys and enjoy them! Anything not in milk here gets a good full handful of alfalfa pellet twice a day and they do just fine. Here we do not grain anything not in milk.... well the bucks get some while in rut because they are goobers and do not eat well. Something about would rather stay along the fenceline blubbin at the ladies. Lol.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

NatalieRyan said:


> , I decided to buy the DuMor feed as a treat for them. As there is Ammonium Chloride in it, how much would you recommend feeding? Between the two of them tonight they received a quarter of a quart of pellets.


I'm not here to gripe at you at all... Im just curious why you feel the need to feed grain after all the information we gave you on how this can complicate their life with UC? If you just want to be sure they get some extra nutrients..you can feed alfalfa pellets safely. I know many people who feel like they are cheating their goats if they don't feed grain..I get that. But the health of the boys is far more important.

Edit: to clarify..Im just curious if there are other factors we are missing...not trying to " get on yah" 
Best wishes


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

happybleats said:


> I'm not here to gripe at you at all... Im just curious why you feel the need to feed grain after all the information we gave you on how this can complicate their life with UC? If you just want to be sure they get some extra nutrients..you can feed alfalfa pellets safely. I know many people who feel like they are cheating their goats if they don't feed grain..I get that. But the health of the boys is far more important.
> 
> Best wishes


:up:



happybleats said:


> you can feed alfalfa pellets safely.


I'd recommend lespedeza over alfalfa though, I've just seen it be safer for them in the grand scheme of things, not a huge difference though.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Yes..you 2 Anderson , sfg, jubilee, toth , cb, correct as always! Its alot of fun when you here from several that have large herds and all the diversity in raising goats. Believe me they have your herd in their hearts. They arent.just trying to TELL you what to do. Look at their kidding sites and read their info. They are amazing. Im glad you are here. I wish you the best for your.boys.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Moers kiko boars said:


> Yes..you 2 Anderson , sfg, jubilee, toth , cb, correct as always! Its alot of fun when you here from several that have large herds and all the diversity in raising goats. Believe me they have your herd in their hearts. They arent.just trying to TELL you what to do. Look at their kidding sites and read their info. They are amazing. Im glad you are here. I wish you the best for your.boys.


It's great to have such a kind community of goat owners on here striving toward everyone raising healthy and happy goats. Let's not forget about Cathy, @happybleats ! :inlove: you can exclude me and my small herd from your honorable mention, though my herd of wethers gets individualized care and I have dedicated much time to wether care and herbal knowledge - Cathy has invaluable knowledge and her advice on this thread has been great as always.


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## Charlie Chaplin (Dec 6, 2020)

CBPitts said:


> There are hard waters that aren't high calcium too so the more you know about your water, land, and hay the better off you are.
> 
> We don't give bucks any grains at all unless in rut. They get fed good hay and some alfalfa pellets. That's it.


Just got a pygmy mail and a dwarf (maybe), one is a wether. Both just under 2 yrs old. When you say "good hay" what do you mean? And how much per day per goat? All at once or two times per day? Thanks.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Charlie Chaplin said:


> Just got a pygmy mail and a dwarf (maybe), one is a wether. Both just under 2 yrs old. When you say "good hay" what do you mean? And how much per day per goat? All at once or two times per day? Thanks.


Hi, you will get many more answers if you start your own thread!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Charlie you are Ok with staying here with the question.
It pertains to this thread. 
We will allow CBPitts answer. 

Thank you NigerianDwarfowner for watching out, most of the time members do post a new question, in someone else’s thread, but feel this question is OK.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> :up:
> 
> I'd recommend lespedeza over alfalfa though, I've just seen it be safer for them in the grand scheme of things, not a huge difference though.


So e people cannot get the lez pellet and even then for some it is cost prohibitive. The ap works just fine.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Charlie Chaplin said:


> Just got a pygmy mail and a dwarf (maybe), one is a wether. Both just under 2 yrs old. When you say "good hay" what do you mean? And how much per day per goat? All at once or two times per day? Thanks.


Good hay should be nice and soft and greenish, not yellow or brown or filled with sticks.

The type of hay depends on what you need, there's grass hay and legume hay etc.

Hay is usually something we recommend offering 24/7 unless there is a reason you can't.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Sfgwife said:


> So e people cannot get the lez pellet and even then for some it is cost prohibitive. The ap works just fine.


Yep that's why I said not a huge difference, but I said it's what *I* recommend.


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