# Conflicting feelings....



## emilieanne

I got this new nubian doe a week or two ago.

























I really like her body for conformation but her legs, I have a problem with. They turn out in the front & in the back her hips I guess just aren't wide enough to set her up how I normally set my goats up. 
Now, the pictures might not be the best because I am "correcting them" trying to make them look better than actual..
I show all my animals so this is a big question. I really like her. Her personality and her beautifulness.
She is also bred. 
I'm CONSIDERING selling her & getting a better show doe. 
Don't know what to do? Wait til she kids, sell the baby, then her, or sell them both before she kids. (I have someone interested in her or her baby)

Think it would be smart to just shop around & see what I see, if I find something better sell her & her baby ? What do I do?? 
I need help from the professionals.


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## emilieanne

Also, she is an American Nubian. Not PB. 

So ignore the ears. Lol


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## Dani-1995

No comment on her overall quality since I'm not a dairy person. But with her hip it appears to be the same width from hooks to pins. You ideally want the pins to come out wide than the hooks. I think if she was set up more with her natural width she.would look better. Just my opinion and I may be dead wrong.


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## emilieanne

Dani-1995 said:


> No comment on her overall quality since I'm not a dairy person. But with her hip it appears to be the same width from hooks to pins. You ideally want the pins to come out wide than the hooks. I think if she was set up more with her natural width she.would look better. Just my opinion and I may be dead wrong.


Thank you dani!! 
No, that's exactly the way I feel. 
I'm thinking I should sell her?


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## Dani-1995

I'm not sure if you should sell her based on conformation but if your not happy with her I would probably sell her. I don't keep goats I'm not satisfied with.


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## Curious

She also seems a bit narrow in the chest floor, and she's just a little too much on the dainty side for my liking. She seems sweet, but it's hard to breed bad traits out and good ones in. Better to start with something you love IMO.


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## happybleats

she does seem a bit lanky..long and thin...but being American rather than PB should not make a difference..American Nubian did win champion last year : ) Im not into show but they made a huge thing about it....IMO a well bred Nubian is a well bred Nubian..pure bred or American...I have two American nubian who are better laid out than my one Pure bred lol..
I think if you are not happy with her then sell her and find one you feel confident in showing..or wait til she kids..hope for an improved Doeling to raise and show....


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## happybleats

BTW..she is adorable...I love that sassy face..


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## Curious

She has that "Look at me!" attitude to her, doesn't she?...it's quite cute.


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## still

How old is she? Maybe she just needs a little more maturity.......she almost looks like she's in that awkward teenage goat stage. You know the one where none of them really look great. LOL


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## emilieanne

Lol she's a year & 4 months!! 

I dot have a problem with the American part. She just is not, I don't know, seems like she's not so great. 
Like I said, conflicting feelings..... 
I love her but the things y'all mentioned are also things I've seen. I am just not AS satisfied that I thought I would. 
She walks perfect but her confirmation makes me a little confusing & conflicted. 
I don't know how to explain it. Lol


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## emilieanne

And thanks happybleats!


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## still

Ooopppssss! I hope I didn't offend you by saying that  I would definitely say that if your not REALLY in love with her sell her bred and spend the money getting a goat you do LOVE:lovey:


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## emilieanne

still said:


> Ooopppssss! I hope I didn't offend you by saying that  I would definitely say that if your not REALLY in love with her sell her bred and spend the money getting a goat you do LOVE:lovey:


No no no. You didn't offend me!! 
It's ok. Lol I don't see how you could even offend me a little? Lol you're alright!


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## still

emilieanne said:


> No no no. You didn't offend me!!
> It's ok. Lol I don't see how you could even offend me a little? Lol you're alright!


Thanks!


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## emilieanne

still said:


> Thanks!


Lol no problem!! 
I'm going to talk to some people & see what they think of my doe. In the mean time I'm gunna shop around. Lol


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## rdmtnranch

happybleats said:


> she does seem a bit lanky..long and thin...but being American rather than PB should not make a difference..American Nubian did win champion last year : ) Im not into show but they made a huge thing about it....IMO a well bred Nubian is a well bred Nubian..pure bred or American...I have two American nubian who are better laid out than my one Pure bred lol..
> I think if you are not happy with her then sell her and find one you feel confident in showing..or wait til she kids..hope for an improved Doeling to raise and show....


I agree American shouldn't change things. They still go by nubian breed standards. I personally would sell her. She is a nice doe but it would be hard to breed up. I am kinda in the same boat. I picked up a kid and I don't really love her conformation I am going to give her a little growing time, but I think she will have to go. If you wait till she kids you should have some profit and maybe you can get something better.


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## emilieanne

rdmtnranch said:


> I agree American shouldn't change things. They still go by nubian breed standards. I personally would sell her. She is a nice doe but it would be hard to breed up. I am kinda in the same boat. I picked up a kid and I don't really love her conformation I am going to give her a little growing time, but I think she will have to go. If you wait till she kids you should have some profit and maybe you can get something better.


Alright. 
Yeah, I mean money isn't an issue but it would be nice. Lol


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

You generally want a wider, big bodied, nice depth and structural correctness in goats. When you set her up, you set the back legs to spaced out, it does not look good when they are over set.
You could keep her for the kids, if she was bred to a more correct buck, and see how they are. But if she was bred to a "so so" buck I'd pass on the whole deal.
She should have a wider frame and more depth by now. Being AM has noting to do with it.

I personaly would not keep her, just because she would most likely not place well, and breeding up and out of bad structure takes too long to be happy with the results . Legs that toe out are hard to correct and a LOT of the registered ones out there have this problem now because of un-careful inbreeding. Leakers are a common thing now too, so beware.


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## rdmtnranch

emilieanne said:


> Alright.
> Yeah, I mean money isn't an issue but it would be nice. Lol


I didn't mean to say that money was an issue, but you could say that even if you do sell her you made a sound financial decision because you would be making money from her baby. A plus right?


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## emilieanne

rdmtnranch said:


> I didn't mean to say that money was an issue, but you could say that even if you do sell her you made a sound financial decision because you would be making money from her baby. A plus right?


I know. Lol 
But yeah that'd be great!! 
But to find a nubian within 20 miles of here is HARD! Lol just gunna take time


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## emilieanne

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> You generally want a wider, big bodied, nice depth and structural correctness in goats. When you set her up, you set the back legs to spaced out, it does not look good when they are over set.
> 
> I actually didnt set her up too spaced out. I do GREAT with setting up. When I saw the pictures of them setting her up I thought the SAME thing. Then when I did it, I realized it's her legs. The make it look REAL funny.
> 
> You could keep her for the kids, if she was bred to a more correct buck, and see how they are. But if she was bred to a "so so" buck I'd pass on the whole deal.
> She should have a wider frame and more depth by now. Being AM has noting to do with it.
> 
> Were not sure on what buck she was bred to (I bought her bred & she was suppose to be a moth along, she's 4 months along. )
> 
> I personaly would not keep her, just because she would most likely not place well, and breeding up and out of bad structure takes too long to be happy with the results . Legs that toe out are hard to correct and a LOT of the registered ones out there have this problem now because of un-careful inbreeding. Leakers are a common thing now too, so beware
> 
> What's a leaker?? Also, I don't breed them to end up with better stock. For now I breed so that they're in milk & I make money off the babies. Until I get my own place (I'm only 15 lol) I will continue doing that.
> So when I get a doe I like it to be young so that I can show it & breed it. & I show to make them you know, be worth more & see how great they are (plus it's a BLAST!! )
> So when I get a doe that is great and has some legs I can sell the babies for more & I know when I officially have my own stock that I will have what I want & what I think is a great animal.
> 
> .


Answered Inbetween the lines


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## Delilah

I agree on selling her I love her coloring and everything but you would get more from kids if you had a doe that was more correct. Wait until she freshens until you sell her if she has a drop dead amazing udder then you can sell her and get even more but it's all up to you. I think she looked better in the pictures that you showed us awhile ago when you were looking at her. I don't know why but she looked more correct and pretty. Could it be that they set her up just so that you don't see her flaws? Do you still have one of the pictures from there add for her?


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## emilieanne

Delilah said:


> I agree on selling her I love her coloring and everything but you would get more from kids if you had a doe that was more correct. Wait until she freshens until you sell her if she has a drop dead amazing udder then you can sell her and get even more but it's all up to you. I think she looked better in the pictures that you showed us awhile ago when you were looking at her. I don't know why but she looked more correct and pretty. Could it be that they set her up just so that you don't see her flaws? Do you still have one of the pictures from there add for her?


I do.. And yes it is exactly that. BUT it's also the lighting. If you look closet it's the lighting. They didnt turn her feet when they set her up like I did.


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## Dani-1995

Question- are you supposed to set them up that wide?


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## emilieanne

Dani-1995 said:


> Question- are you supposed to set them up that wide?


It's not that wide actually. Is her hips making it look weird.


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## Dani-1995

Oh ok. It just looks like her legs aren't in line with her hips. We always set boers at pin width. I wasn't sure about dairy... I thought they might do it different tothe show off the udder better


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## emilieanne

Dani-1995 said:


> Oh ok. It just looks like her legs aren't in line with her hips. We always set boers at pin width. I wasn't sure about dairy... I thought they might do it different tothe show off the udder better


To me it looks like her one leg is in line but the other is waaaaay far away.

But yes that is generally what we do. 
Or Atleast what I do. Lol


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## Dani-1995

Ok thanks! I've been watching all the dairy pics and it seems like most set them at what looks too far out to me. But again, I'm used to my boers. I'm sure bracing looks weird to some people lol


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## emilieanne

Dani-1995 said:


> Ok thanks! I've been watching all the dairy pics and it seems like most set them at what looks too far out to me. But again, I'm used to my boers. I'm sure bracing looks weird to some people lol


Your welcome 
This is a GREAT picture of a doe set up the way it should, IMO,









Yes that is me showing my doe haha


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## RedGate

Emilie, I would probably let her go as well. I'm seeing a lot of structural flaws. especially for such a young girl. To help her rump be sure to set her rear legs as squarely under her as possible and punch her down. sometimes we do have a tendency to set up jr does especially a bit too stretched and spread in the rear end. You may also want to bring those front legs back up under her shoulders some, may help her top line and give her a little chest extension/strength

I wish you were on the show scene in FL a few years ago, girl. Nubians were THE big breed, with several quality breeders at every show that loved to help youth get quality stock. Just starting out, I lucked into some beautiful girls in your neck of the woods. My Grand Champion doe at the Tampa show, Jane? She was Plant City born, actually bought her at that show 5 years ago. you don't have to settle, there are nice animals out there still with reasonable price tags


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

A leaker is a doe, that is in milk, that either has too big of orifices or weak orifices and when her udder starts to get full and has pressure in the udder, the orifices will stream milk out, they won't hold up for a 12 hour fill.


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## emilieanne

Little bits and pieces, you have just MADE MY DAY/Night/life. 
She is just that.
Her udder will not hold milk. It was like she was getting nursed & I didn't understand it? 
Alright, well there she goes. Lol 

Redgate: thank you so much!! Since you said it, I guess it's FOR SURE a done deal that she's gunna have to leave. 
(With the putting her legs up under her,)- It was either turns her legs in so they look normal lol or pull them in. So I turned em to look normal (at the time.) 
Do you know of anyone in Florida with nubians? 
I have talked to some breeders and no one has anything for sale. 
I came across a great doe but they said she's not show quality because her fore udder attachments are weak and so are her rear Pasterns. Idk what Pasterns are...?


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## Delilah

Pasterns are like right around where the dew claws are. Bad pasterns can sometimes look really funny seems how we have a goat with really bad pasterns! They don't show well or at least I don't think they do depending on how bad they are.


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## Dani-1995

Pasterns are a goats ankle basically... the flexing part between hooves and dewclaw. People will say down in her pasterns meaning the pasterns have too much flex and the dewclaw is close to the ground. It causes hoof problems and is sometimes brought on by hip.and leg angulation issues... not always but sometimes.


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## emilieanne

Thanks guys 

I had just found that out when I saw these posts. Lol 
I think it looks funny when their dew claw is close to the ground!!! D: 
So, I'm selling this doe. For sure. 
Not quite sure if I want to stay with Nigerians and get another or go & try and find a nubian but I'm getting a new one. Already made my min up on that.


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## RedGate

I'll probably have some kids available at that show  looks like I have around 20 does to kid out this year... That means around 40 kiddos *gulps* 

the two breeders I bought my girls from have either gotten out or are getting out of goats, but I'll pm you some names/websites when I get on my computer this afternoon


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## emilieanne

RedGate said:


> I'll probably have some kids available at that show  looks like I have around 20 does to kid out this year... That means around 40 kiddos *gulps*
> 
> the two breeders I bought my girls from have either gotten out or are getting out of goats, but I'll pm you some names/websites when I get on my computer this afternoon


Yay!! THANK YOU SO MUCH Anna 
So excited


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## emilieanne

What do y'all think about this??


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## Sylvie

emilieanne said:


> What do y'all think about this??


Wow. Do it!


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## emilieanne

Sylvie said:


> Wow. Do it!


You think so?? 
Worth 500?


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## J.O.Y. Farm

I would do it  she's a pretty gal


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## emilieanne

yay! 

Ok I'm gunna do it!!


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## J.O.Y. Farm

Cool!  good luck with her


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## Delilah

Good I hope she works out better for you!!


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## emilieanne

Thanks Guys!! 

Has anyone looked at her pedigree? 
I wanna know what you guys think still


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## emilieanne

Is 500 much or is it worth it?? 

That's my only concern. Cause people keeps asking me. 
She seems SO PERFECT! But I'm being cautious, after getting baby thinking she was awesome, idk:/


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## Dani-1995

If she is what you are looking to add yo your herd/show string then I say she's worth it. How much would you be able to ask on kids from her? What about show pay out she could possibly win? But really if she has all the qualities you want I say she is worth it.


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## emilieanne

Dani-1995 said:


> If she is what you are looking to add yo your herd/show string then I say she's worth it. How much would you be able to ask on kids from her? What about show pay out she could possibly win? But really if she has all the qualities you want I say she is worth it.


For the kids I'm honestly thinking 350-400 for does. I am one of 4 "breeders" of registered nubians in my county and 2 surrounding counties. 
Show pay out I'm thinking will be REALLY good 
Thank you dani!! 
You've been a great help!!


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## emilieanne

Here are the pictures that they sent blown up:


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## Dani-1995

I think she is pretty. I hear y'all say alot.about brisket and I dont think hers is.great but I like her structure- no major faults.


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## emilieanne

Dani-1995 said:


> I think she is pretty. I hear y'all say alot.about brisket and I dont think hers is.great but I like her structure- no major faults.


Well that's good 
Except I have no idea what a brisket it!!(; lol


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## Dani-1995

Where her chest floor is. On the profile I think you want a dairy goat to.come out more. I could be wrong though.... I've just read it up here lol


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## emilieanne

Dani-1995 said:


> Where her chest floor is. On the profile I think you want a dairy goat to.come out more. I could be wrong though.... I've just read it up here lol


OH! Yeah you're right..... 
I think it's the way she's standing but I think you're right that she doesn't have a big one. 
Her moms isn't the biggest either.


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## still

emilieanne said:


> OH! Yeah you're right.....
> I think it's the way she's standing but I think you're right that she doesn't have a big one.
> Her moms isn't the biggest either.


Actually the "show" picture looks great to me as far as a brisket is concerned but I'm no expert


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## emilieanne

still said:


> Actually the "show" picture looks great to me as far as a brisket is concerned but I'm no expert


Really? Cause the way I see it, it's strong just not big in length.


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## Delilah

Look at her moms udder!!!  I hope she has that great of an udder for you!


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## emilieanne

Delilah said:


> Look at her moms udder!!!  I hope she has that great of an udder for you!


Thanks Delilah!!!


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## Kaneel

Now _that_ is a show doe! Brisket wise, she could be better, but for the most part briskets don't matter...well I can't say that but don't not decide to buy her just because of that flaw  Overall she seems like a fantastic doe! And her mother, phenomenal! If she matures to look anything like her mother, you will be winning some shows  I think she is well worth 500. I would take a look at her sire and his dam as well though, genetics come from that side too, she may end up looking nothing like her mother, and a lot like her father. So make sure you cover all your bases


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## Delilah

Oh yeah I was looking at her pedigree you don't mind that she is very in bred? Her mom and dad were brother and sister as long as being really in bred is fine with you then go get her!


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## emilieanne

Kaneel, thank you!!! 

I emailed them and told them I want her 
I have searcher for photos of the sire & sire's dam but I can't find any..:/ 

Delilah: I don't mind but I do think that's weird. 
I guess they felt that it would be alright... Idk. 
I personally would never do that.... 
Kaneel, what do you think about her being inbred?


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## emilieanne

Wait, Delilah, where do you see her mom & dad as being brother & sister? 
I clicked on inbreeding & I got this:


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## emilieanne

I talked to the people today that are selling her to me, 
She originally came from Colorado!! 
He was very sweet to me! Asking if I have any other goats, if I have a mentor I could go to if she got sick. If I have a buck I can breed her too! 
That's the first time someone has asked all that.


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## still

emilieanne said:


> I talked to the people today that are selling her to me,
> She originally came from Colorado!!
> He was very sweet to me! Asking if I have any other goats, if I have a mentor I could go to if she got sick. If I have a buck I can breed her too!
> That's the first time someone has asked all that.


That's great!


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## emilieanne

Thank you!! I'm realy happy and I think they wouldn't cheat me out of my $$.


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## Sylvie

emilieanne said:


> I talked to the people today that are selling her to me,
> She originally came from Colorado!!
> He was very sweet to me! Asking if I have any other goats, if I have a mentor I could go to if she got sick. If I have a buck I can breed her too!
> That's the first time someone has asked all that.


:fireworks:


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## emilieanne

Sylvie said:


> :fireworks:


Thanks sylvie
I'm SO excited. 
Idk what's more exciting, hearing my doe has 2 weeks tops from someone else (for kidding) or getting her.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I don't want to burst any bubbles, beings as your so excited..... but I however did not find her to be worth $500

The flaws I see
steep rump
not enough depth (for my liking) , even for a yearling
Brisket 
the fact that she is very inbred. (I prefer it to be 4% of less, faults are almost impossible to fix once you inbreed that much)

When you check her out, look at the legs at all angles, are they straight? Toe out? Toe in?
Look at the teats, check to make sure they are correct 
look at her teeth make sure they match her age
Look at her tattoos, make sure they match the papers
Look at her eyelids
look at her all over for lumps, lice etc
look at the pen she was in, the hay, water , grain.
Look at her other goats
if possible look at the parents from all angles.

Ask if they test and for what


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Her and her mother's legs look like they toe out, a lot.


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## emilieanne

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> I don't want to burst any bubbles, beings as your so excited..... but I however did not find her to be worth $500
> 
> The flaws I see
> steep rump
> not enough depth (for my liking) , even for a yearling
> Brisket
> the fact that she is very inbred. (I prefer it to be 4% of less, faults are almost impossible to fix once you inbreed that much)
> 
> When you check her out, look at the legs at all angles, are they straight? Toe out? Toe in?
> Look at the teats, check to make sure they are correct
> look at her teeth make sure they match her age
> Look at her tattoos, make sure they match the papers
> Look at her eyelids
> look at her all over for lumps, lice etc
> look at the pen she was in, the hay, water , grain.
> Look at her other goats
> if possible look at the parents from all angles.
> 
> Ask if they test and for what


The pictures are from when she was 3.5 months old and because of the fact he doesn't have anyone to help hold her, and she wants to be next to you or running around it's hard to get a good picture. So he would tie her to the fence.

He doesn't own the parents.. They're back in Colorado. 
Parents have both been tested for CAE & CL & he said they both showed up negative. He annually checks his herd for CAE & CL and he's NEVER had a goat have it.

I will deff be checking eyelids, hair for lice/mites, and the toe out toe in. 
I did speak with him about my toe that toes out and he said she didn't seem to have that problem. 
He is very honest, an seems like a loving guy. I spoke with him yesterday & he asked where I'd be showing her, if I show with 4-h, FFA, or by myself, if my parents are ok with it, 
I believe that she is in good care right now, course I believe she'd be in better care with me (ONLY cause I want her(; ) 
Another thing I'm going to check is hooves & fecal matter I see on the ground

EVERY time I go to look at a registered goat, I always ask if one looks slightly thin, what's going on. How they took care of it. And how long ago it happened.

Thank you for all the pointers and you didn't burst my bubble!! I'm at like 79-80% happy and I believe the highest ill let it get is like 82. Lol cause I know I could get there & her look like my thumb, she's so skinny.  lord I hope not! Other wise id HAVE to take her & make her my second project goat


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

What about Johnes?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Have you looked at the parents scores?


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## emilieanne

He said the parents weren't tested to his knowledge but he's also only tested a few times. His goats have never had it. 

Not many people really test for johnes down here. Dunno why.


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## still

I try to not be dense but didn't realize that the "show" picture was not the goat you were looking at buying duh!! So never mind about what I said.......your potential purchase probably needs more growing/maturity....those youngins never seem to look that great to me


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## emilieanne

still said:


> I try to not be dense but didn't realize that the "show" picture was not the goat you were looking at buying duh!! So never mind about what I said.......your potential purchase probably needs more growing/maturity....those youngins never seem to look that great to me


Me neither. Lol 
That's why I'm waiting on an updated picture 
Waiting..waiting...waiting.... 
Haha 
I personally think the guy doesn't want to get rid of her.


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## Sylvie

still said:


> I didn't realize that the "show" picture was not the goat you were looking at buying duh!!


I just realized this too


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## emilieanne

Sylvie said:


> I just realized this too


Haha it's ok. 
I decided not to get her. I found out that breeder has had CL recently & didn't treat it properly. 
I am stuck between 2 does now though. 
Bo peep- due in July 450 loves to be milked.









Or pepper - 350 due in August. Hates to be milked.


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## J.O.Y. Farm

Sorry about the Nubian..

Hmm... Any udder pics of these two? And better pics of the B&W one?


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## emilieanne

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> Sorry about the Nubian..
> 
> Hmm... Any udder pics of these two? And better pics of the B&W one?


That's all the pictures the lady has:/ 
I'm asking for the amount of milk that bo peep had when milked. 
I would ask for more, but she HA Arthritis and I don't wanna put pressure on her


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## J.O.Y. Farm

I don't know.. It's hard to tell from those pics on the B&W.. But I do like the chammy.. Are you gonna go see them? I would say go see how try look and pick them out from there..


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## emilieanne

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> I don't know.. It's hard to tell from those pics on the B&W.. But I do like the chammy.. Are you gonna go see them? I would say go see how try look and pick them out from there..


Problem.. Again. Lol 2 hours away. Yes I always go for the ones far away!!


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## J.O.Y. Farm

Oh lol! Well then... Idk.. I like the chammy lol!


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## emilieanne

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> Oh lol! Well then... Idk.. I like the chammy lol!


Does that mean brown white with black belly?  lol


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## J.O.Y. Farm

Yah  she would be Chamoisee with white 
I just call it chammy for short


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## emilieanne

Ahhhhh yeah I like her also!!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> Yah  she would be Chamoisee with white
> I just call it chammy for short


The chammy doe would be a Broken Chamoisee.
But seeings as how she looks better, I would look at her first.


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## emilieanne

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> The chammy doe would be a Broken Chamoisee.
> But seeings as how she looks better, I would look at her first.


What do you mean? 
Lol kinda confused.


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## Sylvie

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> I like the chammy


:thumbup:


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## goat luver 101

I agree with what's been said. But I am also not a dairy person.


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## emilieanne

Well I've decided it's her or this other doe tht is where my other goats are at. 
Pictures should be here in 10 min!!


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## emilieanne

Here we go:

















Keep in mind she is a LITTLE skittish, has been shown once though. & I don't have udder pictures:/ 
She is 5 min from my house though


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## emilieanne

There's also this one that's 5 min from my house. Ill try & get better pictures of both this weekend.









Sorry for such a bad pic


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

emilieanne said:


> What do you mean?
> Lol kinda confused.


A chamoisee is a brown goat with black face stripes, black legs, and a black stripe down its back.
A broken Chamoisee is the same as above, but has white on its body, doesn't matter where. Like white splashes.

So in short, the brown one with the white on its belly


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## emilieanne

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> A chamoisee is a brown goat with black face stripes, black legs, and a black stripe down its back.
> A broken Chamoisee is the same as above, but has white on its body, doesn't matter where. Like white splashes.
> 
> So in short, the brown one with the white on its belly


Alright. 
Thank you!!!


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