# Not feeding Copper to Pygmy Goats?



## Sara

I was reading on the Goats Prefer website and it has a daily vitamins thing. And it has a disclaimer at the bottom.

http://www.goatsprefer.com/electrolytes.htm

I'm confused.

I thought you could feed copper to ANY goats.


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## cute kids

I ran into this warning on a feed awhile ago, and also wondered. i was told then by big time pygmy people that that was false: pygmies need copper just as other goats do. so........hopefully someone can shed some light, for i don't remember the particulars.


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## goathappy

Every goat needs a certain amount of copper. Black goats require 6x the amount of copper that a white goat would, and I"m sure with pygmy goats they of course do not have the mineral requirements that a standard sized goat would. It takes ALOT of copper to OD a goat though.


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## Sara

Yeah I just thought it was weird they had that on their website.


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## StaceyRosado

I have heard that in writing before but in practice it makes no sense.

I read it though in conjunction with this extra copper block that some people were feeding their cows I think it was. I guess they thought it would be to much for a small goat.

Who knows.

but if you are feeding a goat mineral or block that has copper in it they will only eat what is needed for their bodies. 

I wouldn't limit their intake of copper especially if you have a dark goat.


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## enjoytheride

I remember reading an article on copper toxicity in a pygmy herd in Washington. That was the only thing about copper toxicity I have read anywhere so maybe that was the reason. I can no longer find that article and haven't been able to get anyone to say was the daily requirement of copper is for any goat. 
A lot of people bolus with those copper wires but that makes me nervous.


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## goathappy

I don't believe in the copper boluses because you don't know exactly how much they are getting. I use copper drenches using a 1% solution, it gives them just what they need and it's impossible to OD them on it.
We've OD'ed a goat before, accidently. She lived, we gave her the homeopathic remedy Nux Vomica(a liver detoxer) 3x a day and she was fine within a week.
I've read that kelp fed from certain areas can contain a lot of copper, but most kelp is safe.


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## getchagoat (Julie)

Does anyone know where to find the information on darker goats needing more copper? Wondering how that's been studied and the reason for it.


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## goathappy

I'll ask on another list, there's a lady on there who knows everything about mineral deficiencies, I think there might be an article or something on the Saanendoah website.


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## Chaty

My goats get plenty of cpooer in their loose minerals and I do know if you give copper to sheep it will kill them that is why you cant run them together safely...not a good idea...thats why you cant give sheep goat feed and goat minerals because of the copper...


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## goathappy

http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html
"Darker goats and dark-haired people need more copper because they build 
in more pigmentation in the hair and copper is needed for production of the 
pigment (Pat Coleby mentions this when I recall it correctly)."


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## getchagoat (Julie)

Thank you, ma'am!


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## Lindacol

*Copper*



> http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html
> "Darker goats and dark-haired people need more copper because they build
> in more pigmentation in the hair and copper is needed for production of the
> pigment (Pat Coleby mentions this when I recall it correctly)."


Was the aabove quote on saanendoah? I couldn't find it there but there is lots of info.

I did find this on saanendoah:

"Here in southern-most Southern California (San Bernardino, Riverside, Orange and San Diego counties) and most of Arizona we have severe primary copper (Cu) deficiency (low levels in soil and feed) problem in the Swiss breeds and LaMancha dairy goats. As in cattle, we feel that genetic difference in both breeds and blood lines within breeds affects goats susceptibility to both deficiency and toxicity (research shows that Simmental and Charolais cattle need more copper in their diet than Angus, because they are less efficient absorbers of copper from the small intestine. And field experience suggests Simmental, Maine Anjou, Limousin and Charolais benefit from 1.5 times the copper intake of traditional breeds - Dennis Herd, Texas A&M beef cattle nutritionist). "

Which would lead me to believe that darker animals(Angus are black) needing more copper is not true. It is just that copper deficiency is more easily seen with the fading of the hair coat in darker animals. And here in so CA some of the worst problems with copper deficiency have been in saanens.

Newcomer to this forum
Linda Colquitt
Alpines & Toggs


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## goathappy

Sorry, that quote came from somebody else.
If black goats do not require more copper, then why is it that we have goat minerals out for all of our goats, both black and white, and the white goats will seem fine(slick and shiny) but the coats of the black goats are still rather dingy, reddish, and not so shiny? We usually supplement our black goats with copper drenches when they need it, but our white Saanens usually just do fine on the minerals alone.


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## Lindacol

*Copper*



> Sorry, that quote came from somebody else.
> If black goats do not require more copper, then why is it that we have goat minerals out for all of our goats, both black and white, and the white goats will seem fine(slick and shiny) but the coats of the black goats are still rather dingy, reddish, and not so shiny? We usually supplement our black goats with copper drenches when they need it, but our white Saanens usually just do fine on the minerals alone.


Guess I'll try this again as I responded to this but it did not appear.

I don't know the answer to your question. But there may be breed differences in hair coat, the saanens in this area often have finer, shorter hair coats especially when compared to the toggs. And deficiencies have often progressed further(lower immunity, leg problems, anemia, etc) by the time a problem is noticed. I know severel saanen breeders who have to bolus every 4 mos. I bolus every 6 mos and have done so for over 12 yrs with no OD, with probably an average of around 30 animals. This is on addition to feeding a high copper mineral, alfalfa hay and pellets (with added copper) and grain as needed to milkers, bucks and kids. I rarely lose animals but when I do I have nearly all necropsied at the state lab and have copper levels checked. I have never had one with coppry toxicity. Because the copper in the boluses is absorbed over severel months I am more comfortable using them than the drench. I have accidentally given extra boluses several times with no adverse effects. Of course I am using them on full size dairy does and bucks.

Linda


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## StaceyRosado

I to have found that my black goats need more copper and switching to a differnt mineral seems to have helped.

after a few drenches and the new mineral my Aspen shedded out to a beautiful black coat. She still had a couple red spots near her tail but thankfully she wasn't red all over.

my other lighter colored girls showed no signs of any coat issues. 

I go by experience more then just what is written in a book or some study.


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## goathappy

Personally, I wouldn't trust the boluses even though we have standard size goats. I understand that they probably work really well for you since CA is known for its copper deficiencies.
With pygmy goats and other minis, copper drenches are the best route for goats with slight deficiency that is not covered by the amount of copper in their minerals.
Just my 2 cents


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## StaceyRosado

good point goathappy to bring up the different areas and their specific needs. THat certainly plays a part in how you treat your own specific herd.


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## enjoytheride

The vet who started the local clinic (and retired about 20 year ago now) developed a mineral salt mix specifically for our area- and it is perfectly wonderful for the horses. The goat one is good but has no copper at all because (I heard anyway) that a sheep OD on copper and he took it out of the goat/sheep mix. Right now I'm trying to blend the horse mix with the goat/sheep one to get the copper needed. But I'm taking it really slow because I don't want to poison my goats. But I simply can't find anyone to give me a needed amount of copper for a goat.
Not everywhere is California is deficient in copper- after all there is a town here called Copperopolis. And on my place there are some turquoise rock which I think means copper. Of course I don't know that just because the rocks have copper that the hay I buy them from somewhere else has what they need. They do browse some but most of their nutrition comes from hay.


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## StaceyRosado

enjoytheride i wouldn't worry about ODing them on the copper that is in the horse minerals. Chances are even the horse minerals don't have what they need in it.

I use purina goat minerals. 
http://www.saanendoah.com/mineralanalysis.html#PGM (scroll down or just click on purina goat minerals on the bottom of the left hand list)

it says this about the copper content: (min) 1750.0000 PPM 
(max) 1800.0000 PPM

So check that against your horse mineral to see how much it has in it compared to what is on the market for goats.

also check out this http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

scroll down to where it shows the areas of california that are deficient - might help someone

I just happened upon it via a google search


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## alyssa_romine

where do you get that copper drench??


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## goathappy

Stacey, horses require quite a bit of copper, don't quote me on it, but I think they require just as much or more than goats.
We used to use Purina minerals but they have so much salt our goats would not eat them. We use Sweetlix and Mary Kellogg minerals(she's raised goats for 35+ years and formulated these minerals just for goats)
Here's all the info about copper drenching: http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/coppersulfate.html


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## sweetgoats

I do the cooper boles once a year, like now, because the feed in the winter is not as good as the good stuff the get when they brows. I do not give them a whole lot, but just enough to give them a little boost. 
Now when I got into goats years ago, all the people around her told me that goat could have NO copper what so ever. Well I had bought some mineral that had cooper in it, so I threw it out scared that I was going to kill my goats. Well I went to a goat clinic that had vets, nutritionist, and other there. Of course, they said that they HAD to have copper. So I went to the next 4H goat meeting and I told them what I had learned. Of course they said that I was wrong, and that I would kill my goats. Well, I decided to follow the vets advice (no kidding). 
I do believe that the smaller the goats, of course the less copper that they need. They did say at that clinic and all the clinics that I go to that take about copper, they always say the the darker goats need to have more copper.
I feed sweetlix meat maker, and it has the copper in it.


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## StaceyRosado

I used sweetlix for over 6 months and was happy at first but then when my Aspen had a reddish coat for the winter I switched minerals - that and it was cheeper - and I have been very happy with the purina goat minerals.

The min is the same but the max is a little higher so maybe that makes a difference? or maybe she just likes it more so eats more of it or something I have no clue. 

but both sweet lix and purina are on my good list for minerals, oh and Golden blend would be awesome to get but it is way to expensive.


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## Lindacol

*copper boluses vs drenching*

Her is some interesting info on boluses vs drenching:

http://pharmplex.com.au/Technical/coppe ... _sheep.htm

Linda


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## goathappy

thanks for the article, very interesting.
But in my opinion, if your area is not severely deficient in copper and your goats are showing signs of deficiency even though they have good goat minerals, I still think that drenching is the safest way to go to just give your goats enough copper to get out of deficiency. What ever works for your particular situation.


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