# pygmy judging



## magic (May 27, 2014)

can someone please judge my two pygmies for me? i have showmanship on saturday at the county fair and would like to know the strengths and weakness of them.

















































i dont have any great pics, but anything helps! thanks! the white doe is 3years old and the agouti doe is about 3months.


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## magic (May 27, 2014)

does anyone know how to judge a pygmy?


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

Showmanship will be judged on how _you_ set up the goats, lead them, and sometimes your general goat knowledge not by how they're conformed.

Since pygmys are meat goats, but still small I'm not sure if they would want you to brace them or just set them up normally. It also depends on the area which style the judges look for. Either way you need to be sure you are squaring up the front and back legs evenly. You should be showing them on their collar and not on a lead.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Showmanship judges OFTEN ask for your opinion on your animals weaknesses and strengths. I'm horrible at giving reasons why I do or don't like an animal.


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

True, but it's a toss up. I just meant they have to be set up well too. I would say at least one weakness in both of them is that they have steep rumps. Especially the white doe(?). The white on also has a dip in her back. Not sure what strengths would be for meat goats.. They're stocky and strong bodied. That could be an official pro


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Some quick thoughts on them...I haven't studied Judging Pygmy's so don't know the next thing about it, lol!  This is just what I've learned from critiquing Dairy and Meat goats 

White Doe
Pros:
-Stocky body
-Good depth in barrel
-Good spring of ribs
-Fairly good width
-Stocky, straight legs
-Strong jaw
-Wide head
-Looks to have good brisket
-Looks to have good pasterns
-Chine is a nice length (really only matters on meat animals  )

Cons:
-Short bodied
-Short neck
-Short steep rump
-Uneven topline
-Head is a bit too large for body


Doeling:
Pros:
-Topline is much better then doe
-Rump is better, not as steep
-Strong jaw
-Wide head
-Good brisket
-Good width
-Good spring of ribs
-Good depth of barrel
-Body length is better then the doe
-Cute 


Cons:
-Short neck
-Slightly ewe necked 
-Short rump
-Front legs look a bit weak ?
-Posty hind legs


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## IvyMayPygmyGoats (Jan 24, 2014)

Yay finally my knowledge comes in useful. If you're judged on how you handle them then i'd say that (by UK standards) your making them lean forward too much. A good trick for them is to lift them from between the front legs on the chest, just a couple of inches and place back down. Another trick is to run your hand down their spine and when you get to the hips squeeze a little and "wobble" very gently from side to side, this spreads their legs but not too much.. Judges look for width in hips and shoulders so i'd say for your 3 yr old, her shoulders are slim compared to hips, but the baby looks pretty good! Practice lead walking too, get them to walk comfortably (at their pace) but you should be able to slow/speed them up too. When being judged, in the uk at least, we're made to stand very still and a lot of the time people loose marks because their goats get bored and act up, so practice controlling them if they start to rear up or back up or whatever, and if you look controlled then they'll like you! Good luck, let us know how you do and SMILE BRIGHTLY!


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## Emzi00 (May 3, 2013)

http://www.npga-pygmy.com/resources/conformation/scorecard_db.asp
^^Pygmy scorecard, has a link to the faulting sheet on that page as well. It tells what you do and don't want in a Pygmy.
http://agprospects.com/robinwood/showmanship.html
^^Some stuff on showmanship.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Love it when people ask for Pygs to be critiqued 

Mature doe:

*Pros
*Proper coloring
Strong forehead and jaw
Large, stocky barrel
Smooth blending in front and rear barrel
Strong shoulders
Pasterns are strong
Hocks look to be appropriate length
Appears to carry good carcass 
Bite looks good
Nice chest floor

*Cons
*Extremely short bodied
Topline is very unlevel
Ewe necked
Rear legs are posty
Lacking brisket
Head is too large in comparison to the rest of her
Would like to see more width
Neck could be a bit thicker and longer
Rump is very steep
Roached
Structure of rear legs looks odd to me.. can't place it

I'll do the doeling later.


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## magic (May 27, 2014)

thank you everyone so much! all the responses were very helpfull!!!! i know they are not set up right in the pics but unfortunatly they are the only pics i have right now. i will definitely let every one know how it goes tomorrow!! THANK YOU!


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## magic (May 27, 2014)

also what does ewe neck mean?


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## magic (May 27, 2014)

had a great day a the fair! indie(doeling) got champion junior doe, magic(white doe) got 1st in her class and i got first place in showmanship because indie was so well behaved for being so young! thanks everyone!




























they are very sleepy after everything lol!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Congratulations! That is great!


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Wow! Good for you!!! Congrats to all of you 

Ewe neck is when the neck has a dip before meeting the shoulder


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

congrats. Weakness on the caramel (from what I can tell in the picture) poor rear end assembly, Slope to the rump too steep... looks like maybe the stifle is out. needs more forward extension to the sternum. needs a shorter, wider muzzle. poor rear leg angulation.... hard to tell with out seeing them track and feeling them. looks like she could use more muscling from the neck down into the shoulders. Pros on the caramel she is showing us nice straightness to those forelegs.... cant really say any thing else I like about her with out seeing her track or feeling her. Pros on the grey agouti very lovely topline, nice dish profile, nice development in the brisket area. Cons on the grey, needs a shorter wider muzzle, could use more bone. hard to say any thing else again, with out seeing their tracking and feeling the muscling and smoothness of blending. P.S. if you are going to show them I suggest not to leave on the collars because it rubs the hair off of their necks. also may I suggest when setting them up not to set their rear legs back so far. it messes up the way their topline looks and it makes them seem like they have no rear leg angulation. If you need help with showmanship you can ask me  I go to open shows and have never passed up showmanship. I hope to become a NPGA Judge when I get older.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Some quick thoughts on them...I haven't studied Judging Pygmy's so don't know the next thing about it, lol!  This is just what I've learned from critiquing Dairy and Meat goats
> 
> White Doe
> Pros:
> ...


short necks are not counted off on pygmies. body length usually is not used as a reason. it is considered balance of symmetry, Length of leg to length of body. these heads are ok but could still be counted off. they have nice dish profile but as for the width... also the size of the heads do not get counted off either. but I do agree on the steep rump thing and the good spring of ribs and depth in the barrel.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

here is the NPGA judging scorecard for does and bucks. may have to zoom it in a little...


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Here is a picture of my doe PGCH Country Farms Absolutely Perfect. see the angulation to her rear legs? she also has nice depth of body and body capacity increasing from the heart girth back into the flank. also showing me great development in the brisket and sternum area with that forward extension. also standing on nice heavy bone.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

ciwheeles said:


> Showmanship will be judged on how _you_ set up the goats, lead them, and sometimes your general goat knowledge not by how they're conformed.
> 
> Since pygmys are meat goats, but still small I'm not sure if they would want you to brace them or just set them up normally. It also depends on the area which style the judges look for. Either way you need to be sure you are squaring up the front and back legs evenly. You should be showing them on their collar and not on a lead.


Pygmies do not get braced. pygmies may be considered meat animals but should not be judged as so... not even the wethers. it is not so much the area but rather how that judge interprets the breed standard. I do agree that the goats need to be set up squarely in order to see the actual structure of the goat. Ive shown under a judge that wouldnt let us even set up our goats because it sometimes makes them look worse. and yes grabbing the collar will give you much more control. just be careful weve had someone break a finger at an open show because she had a hold of the goats collar by two fingers and the goat tried to take off. showmanship for pygmies is based off of how well you show your goat off (how well it behaves, how well you can set up your animal P.S. set up the legs closest to the judge first.) your eye contact, being quick to respond and Ive NEVER done a showmanship where they do not ask you questions. a lot of times they will ask for strengths or weaknesses of your goat. sometimes they will ask you to compare two other goats to each other and give reasons why one would place over the other and sometimes they will ask you anatomy questions. Ive also had them ask me how often to worm and what vaccines are given to the goats and how often. Ive also had them ask about common diseases and how to prevent them.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Scottyhorse said:


> Love it when people ask for Pygs to be critiqued
> 
> Mature doe:
> 
> ...


sorry to like bomb this thread but I cant get over how many people said this doe has an ewe neck. she does not. her hair on her neck has been rubbed off from a collar being left on. and she is not short bodied. I know that the dairy breeds they prefer long bodied goats and yes that is a pro in a pygmy but too much length can be a bad thing. in pygmy goats you want to look for a balance in symmetry length of leg to length of body. the reason why her rear legs look weird is because of her slope to the rump. you may hear a judge use the reason "more desirable rear end assembly". this means that the slope is so steep actually pushes the rear legs forward and can cause stifle issues. this doe also has very little angulation to her rear legs. also the short neck is not counted off. it would be considered "upright head carriage" the length of the neck does not matter. also Ive seen a lot say the "head is too large" I have never once heard a pygmy judge give that as a reason. not trying to blow up on anybody just trying to inform.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Lol, seems I'm not the best Pygmy judger! bbpygmy, you should of showed up earlier!


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Photo 1: example of a nice pygmy type head. she has a nice set to the ears and a nice short wide muzzle with a dished profile.

photo 2: example of a poor pygmy type head. she has a poor set to the ears. she also has dish to the profile but not enough width in the muzzle.


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## magic (May 27, 2014)

bbpygmy thank you for all the replies!!!!! all the pictures and explanations really help! it is so hard to find good information about pygmy goats, let alone personal information about my goats. i hope that pygmy goats become more popular for youth shows but next year will be my last year i will be able to do them. thank you again! im hoping to expand my herd once my family moves to a larger property, and i really wanted to know what makes a good pygmy!


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Where are you located? You should come to the 2015 NPGA convention in Red Bluff, CA on June 20-22. We might make the trip with a couple of our Wethers to compete in the National Champion Challenge. It's pretty neat to see how they pick a national champion. If you do go I would suggest to volunteer to be a handler for the judges training. You can learn a lot! If you are looking to expand your herd breeders usually have some for sale at convention. If you are interested I might be able to bring one or two that I can sell you. We are expecting quite a few kids this spring. You can see our herd at http://bbpygmy.com


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## magic (May 27, 2014)

thanks! im located in tampa florida so im not sure i will be able to make the trip this year. It sounds so fun and an amazing experience! i hope i will be able to go sometime in the future! i am interested in participating in more pygmy shows but the only npga one i could find in florida is the state fair(which i am doing). i wish there were more close by.


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## magic (May 27, 2014)

also, your herd is beautiful bbpygmy!!!!


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Thanks  we may be going to the Florida State Fair also.


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## magic (May 27, 2014)

wow yay! i might see you there! if you have been before you may know Jamie White, she is in charge of the pygmy show i believe and she is the breeder from whom i got my two pygmys.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

This would be our first year there. I have never met her but I do know her herd, Heavenly Blessings. We have a doe who is out of one hers.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Definitely come to convention in Red Bluff!

"115 degrees and still having fun!" was one of our proposed slogans. Region 2 is a fun crowd. We don't bite :wink:

I know many breeders I know are breeding for April kiddings, to have weanlings for convention (myself included), so there will definitely be many opportunities to expand your herd and bring in some blood from across the country.


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## Zzpygmies (Oct 31, 2014)

I can't wait for the convention!! I'm so excited at how close it is! Looking forward to meeting some of the out of state breeders too!


Raising NPGA pygmy goaties


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

bbpygmy said:


> sorry to like bomb this thread but I cant get over how many people said this doe has an ewe neck. she does not. her hair on her neck has been rubbed off from a collar being left on. and she is not short bodied. I know that the dairy breeds they prefer long bodied goats and yes that is a pro in a pygmy but too much length can be a bad thing. in pygmy goats you want to look for a balance in symmetry length of leg to length of body. the reason why her rear legs look weird is because of her slope to the rump. you may hear a judge use the reason "more desirable rear end assembly". this means that the slope is so steep actually pushes the rear legs forward and can cause stifle issues. this doe also has very little angulation to her rear legs. also the short neck is not counted off. it would be considered "upright head carriage" the length of the neck does not matter. also Ive seen a lot say the "head is too large" I have never once heard a pygmy judge give that as a reason. not trying to blow up on anybody just trying to inform.


She looks ewe necked to me. Just judging by the picture  We all have our personal preferences in how we want to see our goats, and I like them a little longer bodied than this doe. To me, she is a bit short bodied. I agree, too much length can be a bad thing, but this doe could use a bit more.  On her rear end assembly, I agree with you there. Her rump is very steep and that does throw things off. She does have very little angulation, but I have seen some Pygmies with too much angulation to the rear legs and that is undesirable to me as well. It is a fine line IMO. For example the doe in your avatar has a little too much for my taste. I like to see long, lean necks on all breeds of goats. They can be too short, and can be too long, as well. Having a nice neck is important to the overall symmetry and looks and style of the goat. I would disagree with you there and say it is important. I suppose that saying her head is too large was the wrong term, but it looks disproportionate to the rest of her.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

How did you do at Florida State fair? We ended up not being able to go because of the weather up here  I seen pictures on Facebook and I wish we could have been there! Looks like it was a lot of fun!


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## magic (May 27, 2014)

bbpygmy, yes I did do the florida state fair and I looked for you there! Thats too bad that you couldnt make it because of the weather, I hope you are staying warm up there! It was alot of fun and Im going to another sanctioned show in Lee county on march 7th.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

We're going to try to come next year. Unfortunately we won't be able to make the lee county one either due to another show on the same day.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

I sent you a friend request on Facebook, I recognized the goat on your profile picture lol


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## magic (May 27, 2014)

haha I accepted it, I recognized your bbpygmy name on your license plate. Good luck in your show and maybe I'll see you there next year!


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