# Why are my baby goats being born dead?



## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

I guess you just have good years and bad years on kidding seasons. So far, mine has been a BAD year. I have had 18 babies born, and 8 have died. That is almost 50% of my kid crop! Stardust had triplets first, one wasn't developed and the other had sucked fluid in its lungs and died. Gypsy had QUADS, and three of them died. Two of them, THAT I KNOW OF, were born breech (we came out and found them born) She wasnt due for almost another week! The one that is still alive is doing great, but the other three never tried to get up, nurse, nothing. After that, Revelation had triplets, and two died. We had to pull one doe, which came out breech. That one died. One came out perfectly normal, but took two breaths and died. Now, Cocoa had triplets. One was of course dead, the other two were alive. The buck was up trying to nurse when we found them, and he is doing great. The doe is currently starting to stand up, but hasnt walked. She nurses when we show her where the teat is, but even then we have to hold her on it. We are also giving her a bottle, is going to be brought into the house with us. 

I havent changed my feed or minerals. I changed my hay right after Christmas,, but it was the same type of hay I had always fed before. 

Do any TGS users have experience with what could be causing this nightmare?!?!?!?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear of your losses... ;( Very sad.... I'm not really sure, hopefully someone with more experience comes on... When you said changed your hay, did you notice them eating the same, or differently? Do you feed alfalfa in any form? What minerals are you using?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What is the sex of the ones that died? What kind of copper and selenium supplementation do you do? I'm so sorry you lost so many


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes we all have bad kidding seasons.
Not to assume this is one of your contributing factors however one year I had four out of seven present one or both front legs bent back.
I thought it could be loose minerals so we upgraded that. And made sure they all got some every day, I did not leave it out to cake up.
The following season (same does, same buck) it was all smooth sailing.
What kind of hay & grain are they getting?
Are you in a selenium def area? If so, do your girls get BoSe?


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Janeen, they did not like this new hay. They only way I can get them to eat it is if I mix it with alfalfa. I mix one flake of alfalfa per three flakes of grass hay. I have used Cargill Onyx minerals since 2013 October.

I have lost four girls and three boys, and I THINK the undeveloped kid was going to be a girl. I use Onyx minerals, copper bolus when needed, and BoSe if needed. I gave a bolus to Cocoa last week, as well as some safe guard, because she had barberpole. I dont think that would have caused anything to go wrong…? 

Just to mention, five of the babies have been born breech.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Nancy, I am not in a sel def area. I feed Kalmbach grain, and Orchard/Timothy and Alfalfa hay. I think my new hay had a TINY bit of fescue in it as well.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

ALSO, we have used the bucks before and their kids have always been healthy.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Not sure if this had anything to do with it, but safeguard doesn't take care of barber pole worms to my knowledge. I could be wrong... I'm wondering if there is something in that new hay? Seems like a lot of problems/deaths to be just a bad year, I would think something is causing this... Maybe get some testing done on one of the ones that died?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I have heard Fescue hay can cause problems...maybe someone who knows better then I on this will chime in...so very sorry for all your losses...so heart breaking!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It could just simply be a bad year. I wonder if your girls could use more iodine and selenium.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Will kelp give the does that extra iodine?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes it will. You may want to get a cobalt block for them.


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## DesertFlowerNigerians (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm so sorry for your loss. Half my doe kids died this year. Not sure why.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

What about vaccines? How old are the kid when they are dying?

For the ones that were too weak to nurse or stand, did you ever tube them, or try to bottle feed?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

DesertFlowerNigerians said:


> I'm so sorry for your loss. Half my doe kids died this year. Not sure why.


I lost almost all my doe kids one year. It was iodine deficiency. Kelp took care of my problem. This year I also added a cobalt block.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

Fescue hay has a fungus in the plant stalks and seed heads that cause major birth defects and abortions, it may not show symptoms in the mother unless she was poisoned with it heavily for a length of time, but her unborn offspring will suffer, that may be your problem.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

So should I cut the hay with fescue completely out and feed them alfalfa? I Have five bales of my good hay left and a lot of alfalfa.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> What about vaccines? How old are the kid when they are dying?
> 
> For the ones that were too weak to nurse or stand, did you ever tube them, or try to bottle feed?


The quads that died were alive for four hrs. We gave them colostrum supplement with a syringe, and tried to keep them warm and stimulate them and such. They never even tried to get up and let alone nurse. It seemed like they couldnt even swallow the milk. All of the other kids doed within five minutes after being born.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

If Spidy1 is correct then yes I would cut it out completely.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Fescue can have endophytes, but there are cultivars that are free of endophytes. If your hay grower doesn't know, ditch the fesue for now and look up fescue toxicity or toxicosis.
http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/fesalk.html


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Can I feed that fescue to the bucks? I really dont want all of the bales to go to waste


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

I wouldn't, it can really do some harm even to the adults, they may not show symptoms for a wile, but it is poisoning them badly, possibly causing permanent infertility. Like mentioned there is a strain without the toxin, but it is hard to find and most farmers don't know it exists, or how toxic it is, so they still grow and sell it. I would just feed them alfalfa or a good alfalfa grass mix (with no fescue), (I prefer strait alfalfa).


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## Hughie (Mar 4, 2015)

I "feel" the hay is a good suspect(sometimes just go with your gut) and if they are refusing to eat it that is a pretty good indication something might not be right about it. How about weather? does anyone believe that as crazy as it has been it could have affected the development process? In Wisconsin the last two years girls coming into season has been just wacked, and this is including people who have been breeding since the '70's and can not remember does coming into heat so late and sporadic. Plausible or ramblings of crazy old guy, discuss.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I think something that you should do is take a couple of the deceased kids in for a necropsy. They may find nothing or they may find something that could give you a lot of info. Also, get a blood test on a few does and see what that turns up. Could be a mineral issue. As for the fescue, I doubt that's what's causing the dead kids. Here are problems caused from fescue:

1) Does passing their kidding due dates by as much as ten days or even more.

2) Does with little or no milk. Some does never develop an udder.

3) Contractions so weak that the doe requires human assistance in delivering her kids.

4) Placentas so thick that the kids cannot get out unless the producer tears it open.

5) Unusually thick umbilical cords that are tough to break.

6) No cervical dilation at all in some does.

7) Kids are too large . . . probably because of prolonged gestation. . .. also requiring producer intervention to deliver them alive.

Something else to look into is chlamydia which can cause stillborn kids. I'm sure there are other diseases as well that could cause stillborns, but I'm not familiar with any. I hope you can figure it out. Good luck!


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

I have had problems with 2, 4, 5, and 7.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Fescue toxicosis damages the liver IIRC. Possible prolonged exposure could cause secondary problems that aren't on a symptom list, but... there can be other issues with hay, like high iron (blocks other minerals), mold, low nutrient value...

Necropsy is the gold standard in knowing what you're dealing with. If you can't afford to send to a lab, if you have the stomach, doing your own amateur necropsy could be a huge help.

I'd cut the fescue hay just in case, put out kelp, switch minerals if they aren't eating the ones they've get, and take a good look at my feeding program. (I'm not familiar with your brand of grain.) If the kids are too big (too much protein?), they can't position right. If the dam is deficient in energy (toxemia, maybe borderline?) or muscle minerals (calcium, magnesium, potassium) she may have difficulty positioning them or delivering them quickly enough for optimum survival. Are your dams getting regular exercise before kidding? Are your does overweight? 

I give CMPK if I suspect low calcium, muscle weakness, etc. (hypocalcemia is associated with "uterine inertia"). And I give a shot of nutridrench to any kid who isn't up and nursing within an hour. It has worked for me. Karo rubbed on the gums supposedly works just was well, but nutridrench has been a lifesaver on my farm. We're low selenium here, and I give selenium to any weak newborn, too.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

harleybarley said:


> Fescue toxicosis damages the liver IIRC. Possible prolonged exposure could cause secondary problems that aren't on a symptom list, but... there can be other issues with hay, like high iron (blocks other minerals), mold, low nutrient value...
> 
> Necropsy is the gold standard in knowing what you're dealing with. If you can't afford to send to a lab, if you have the stomach, doing your own amateur necropsy could be a huge help.
> 
> ...


How could I tell if they are deficent in energy? Is there anything I can do to tell if they are? What can I do to tell if they are? They are all eating their minerals very well, and they have good amounts of calcium and potassium, and extremely high in magnesium. I dont think they are getting to much protein. They get a little bit of 16% pellet each day, grass hay free choice, and a little alfalfa twice a day. And anything they eat in their 6 acres of pasture.

PS, Miss Priss just had a VERY healthy and V.E.R.Y. big baby!!!!!!!! She is a HUGE doe! She makes two of Cocoa's twins combined!!! When I can get a signal I will post pictures of this elephant baby! She left absolutley no room for any other babies. I can hold my triplet goats all at the same time and she is heavier than them. She is doing awesome!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Congrats on the new doeling..;-) Can't wait for pics


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Hopefully you just had a run of bad luck and the tide has turned.

Congrats on the HEALTHY new baby!!

Personally, I would monitor urine ketone levels for anyone who hasn't kidded yet - if they aren't getting enough energy from feed, the ketone levels will tell you that. I buy them in the diabetes dept. at a drugstore and try to test before breakfast or dinner. If the goat tests above trace, I hit her with nutridrench (primarily propylene glycol) and make sure she's eating enough, then monitor her ketones daily. I dealt with toxemia once and I'm picky about never having it again.

Nutridrench is great to have on hand. If I suspect serious weakness (a goat acting shocky and not recovering; a kid not getting up and nursing in a reasonabe time) I give nutridrench. It has always worked for me to buy time for a goat to recover or for me to diagnose and treat.

If you truly have adequate calcium, magnesium and potassium in the diet, maybe look at calciumhosphorous ratios? Phosphorous is used to mobilize calcium. "A little" grain may not balance the phoshorous enough, or it may not be providing enough energy in late pregnancy when the babies leave less space for the rumen (grain provides a lot of energy without taking much space). Some herds don't feed grain at all, it's not strictly necessary, but maybe if your mineral is designed to complement grain, ratios could get out of balance. I've read that standard dairy goats should have 1 lb of grain a day by a month before kidding, increasing to 2 lbs by the due date. I think a Nigerian would by about 1/3 as much?

Hopefully you don't need to read any of that! I hope the rest of your kidding season goes as well as Ms. Priss!

Pictures!!  arty:


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

I will get some nutridrench at the feed store!!!!!! Sweetie is in labor now and I hope she will have healthy babies!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

sending good thoughts !!!


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