# Need advice: To wether or keep as bucks?



## laststraw (Oct 7, 2007)

I just don't know what to do... We have the two little guys that we cannot keep and I'm about to start advertising them for sale. I read that the chances of having a really quality male born in your barn is slim, so most are wethered. So, I was set on having them banded. Now, I've seen photos of bucklings for sale and I think ours are just as good as them. So, how do you decide to keep a male intact or not?


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## jBlaze (Oct 9, 2007)

If their dams are really really good you may consider keeping them as bucks, for a time. Advertise, ad if they don't sell by whatever age, then you band them for pets I guess. I have never had boys I would consider for bucks yet. I hope you find nice homes for them.


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## PACE (Oct 8, 2007)

What kind are they? I would think that little "cute" goats (like nigerians or pygmies) would have a better chance at a good home as pets if they're wethered. But if they are meat goats maybe it would be different because people would want to raise them to eat, not pets? Then the larger dairy breeds I'm not sure. I think more people want the little guys for pets, but I don't know about your area. It might also be easier to sell them as bucks if they are purebred... or registered. I don't really have experience with this, but if you really think they are good enough to breed and you could find homes for them, then leaving them as bucks would be fine. If you'd rather they go as pets, then wether them.


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## laststraw (Oct 7, 2007)

Hehehe! I think ALL goats are "cute!"  But, ours are Nigerian Dwarfs - so perhaps they are A+ cute? Anyway, I just posted the most recent photos under the photogenic section at

http://thegoatspot.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=499

We're having them dehorned in the morning, so I suppose I'll discuss it with our breeder. She's already sold out of all kids this year and she's president of our goat club, so perhaps she'll know more about the market here (that was a really good point!). Thanks!!


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## cute kids (Oct 5, 2007)

oh my, i looked at the photos. they are absolutely adorable. no wonder you can't decide what to do. good that you live so far away.........
i have a really gorgeous ng wether, blue eyes, great confirmation, fawn and white color, as sweet as can be. i asked the breeder why she had wethered him. her response was that she felt there were plenty of good ng bucks around and she only lets a few bucklings in any year remain 'whole' and then only if they really have some fantastic genes to offer the ng world. i am sure he could have been a great buck; i have not checked out his dam's milk status, but most of the does in this herd are way up there in evaluations. but you know what? i look at him and am so glad that he doesn't stink, won't have to move from farm to farm as he is used on all the appropriate does in a herd, and won't find himself on his way to auction because no one wants to give a buck a home.
so, i would say to go with what your breeder suggests. her eye and her knowledge of the milking question , as well as the market status, should give you a good indication of just what to do.
but oh my, they really are just adorable. congrats.


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## PACE (Oct 8, 2007)

laststraw said:


> Hehehe! I think ALL goats are "cute!"  But, ours are Nigerian Dwarfs - so perhaps they are A+ cute?


I think all goats are cute too  but you know what I mean, most people people want the "awww... what a cute little goat!" kind of goat as a pet. Your little boys are certainly it! They are SOOOO cute!!! :mrgreen:

I honeslty know nothing about conformation, but I say they are really handsome.

Either way I think it would be fine. I like jBlaze's suggestion about leaving them intact for a certain amount of time, then wether if they haven't sold.

Whatever you decide, I bet they'll get a good home.... because I'm going to sneak there and steal them!


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## moonspinner (Oct 5, 2007)

The first consideration in keeping a buck intact is bloodline. Look at his parents, especially his dam. How is her udder and the mammary in general in the pedigree? A general sign of a good buck lies in his dam and her side.
Also is the dam a first freshener? You probably don't want to keep a buck without knowing how the dam is going to milk which usually isn't fully known until her second freshening. And you'd like to see how her daughters milk and their udder attachments.
How is the bloodline in general? Can you trace solid, time-tested animals several generations back?
Conformation of the kids. With bucks I've found it's tricky because most don't show you their full potential til 2 years. I've been blown away early by some bucks who then digressed; others have matured into pleasant surprises.
Then evaluate the market in your area. Is there need for herdsires?
IMO too many bucks are left intact to add to the genepool. Only the very best ideally should be sires. You'll find many top farms only keep a few intact.


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## bigoakfarm (Oct 6, 2007)

moonspinner said:


> IMO too many bucks are left intact to add to the genepool. Only the very best ideally should be sires. You'll find many top farms only keep a few intact.


I agree there are too many registered bucks left intact every year but at the same time, I've seen way too many 'dud' bucks with those sensational pedigrees and from top farms. I see an awful lot of bucks left intact on the strength of the popularity of one or two animals in their pedigrees.

I have also retained bucks from does with plain jane pedigrees who happened to have exceptional characteristics that I wanted in my herd. My own rule here is that I only sell a registered buck intact if I would use him on my own does.

Everybody is looking for something different though. I don't necessarily agree that a pet home is always better than a breeding home. I have sent bucks intact but without papers to people I knew would provide a caring breeding home with their unregistered does. I'm very careful about which bucks will carry my herd name but I don't mind leaving a buck intact without those papers to a herd that will be improved by him. In the past few years, I have met several people who don't want to invest what I have in papers but who are careful to maintain clean herds and don't want to buy their next buck from a stockyard or worse. Unfortunately, Some of those pet wethers will get outgrown and neglected at some point. It's sad but true. Yet, some have great and wonderful homes for their entire lives! You just have to use your best judgement in re-homing your boys and do whatever is in their best interest each time you sell one.

Good Luck!
Kristen


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## debpnigerians (Oct 20, 2007)

Moonspinner and Kristen are both right, IMO. I usually look at mom's udder first, then ask myself if the son is as good as the father. If the buckling isn't at least as good as the buck who sired him, he should be wethered. But that little gold and white cutiepie is AWFULLY nice!!! Who's the sire? Do you have pics of both parents? You know how we all are.....you want advice, you've got to come up with pics for us to drool over first.  :wink:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I was going to chime in her (oops i just did) and say all the same things the others have said. Way to go guys


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I agree with what everyone has said. Do you have or could take a pic of the mom's udder?


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## fritzie (Oct 6, 2007)

as a breeder i would have to say i agree with what the rest have said. that is how we improve a bred.


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## moonspinner (Oct 5, 2007)

A couple great points made here. Asking yourself if the son is at least as good as his sire and would you breed this kid to your own does - solid advice! I do agree- that gold&white guy from the pic looks pretty nice!


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Everybody has made great points here. 
Personally, I have never kept or sold any bucks that I have bred but I am very picky when it comes to choosing a buck for my herdsire. I wouldn't sell anything I wouldn't use myself, and I don't sell bucks out of first fresheners(unless they prove themselves) Everybody is wethered and eaten here if they aren't previously reserved.
The first thing I always look at is the dam. How does she milk? How does she show? What is her appraisal score? Was it a good score that reflects the good traits I want in my herd?
I look at all the animals in the pedigree. Do/did they milk good? Did they have good appraisal scores? If you have pictures of them, do you like what you see? I do look at the bucks in the pedigree, but really only at the progency of the bucks. Do those bucks throw daughters that are consistent? Or does he throw only a good daughter here and there? Personally, I don't look at the buck himself, ie his appraisal scores etc. As far as I've seen, some of the ugliest bucks have thrown the nicest daughters. My buck, conformation wise, is not pretty. But that runs in his line as far as not so great looking bucks go. But all the does in his line are phenominal(sp?)
There is a great article about choosing bucks in this month's Dairy Goat Journal, very interesting.


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## Fainters (Oct 10, 2007)

I had 2 bucklings from this year's kidding that were exceptional. I thought about keeping them for myself because they were that nice looking but both of the people that wanted them asked me to band them since they were going to be pets for children. I had already banded everyone else and was just sure that someone would want these guys as registered myotonic herd sires. They would have contributed to the breed but my main concern is for them to have a good home.

http://www.freewebs.com/scapegoatranch/


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## laststraw (Oct 7, 2007)

Thank you all for the advice!! I have learned a LOT! So, we talked with the breeder this morning and she agreed about not keeping males intact from first fresheners until we see how the dams turn out - both milk and in the ring. I have not yet shown the girls... started a new job, it's just a time thing...

Here are the photos, though - for thoughts on future breedings (click on them to see larger images).  I took these fast, and pulled the buck photos from a website. Sorry they're not the best. What do you think of their udders/conformation? I'm positively new at this, so any insight is greatly appreciated!

The _sire_ of the girls (Grandsire of the kids):
Master Champion 
MCH Twin Creeks PH Summer Solstice *S 
Buckskin with random White 
Won his last Championship on 3-06
GRSIRE: Twin Creeks Anytime Anyplace
Sire: Twin Creeks AA Purple Heart *S G+
GrDam: Twin Creeks BH Yuletidetreasure *D VG
GRSire: MCH HBF Luckey Strike +S E
Dam: Twin Creeks LS Suncatcher *D VG 2xsGRCH&Best Udder
GRDam: MCH Goodwood Good Day Sunshine E


Zuni (no pics of her dam) Side and Rear:



Bred to Orion:
MASTER CHAMPION
MCH Lost Valley KW Orion *S
Buckskin Pinto
Won his Master Championship on June 2, 2007
AGS Grand Champion on 9-16-06
ADGA RS Grand Champion on 9-16-06
AGS Grand Champion on 7-15-06
Junior Champion ADGA 6-06
2 times AGS & ADGA Grand Champion on June 2, 2007
GR Sire: Stonewall's Raising Arizona ++S
Sire: Gay-Mor's RA Kingwood ++ *S
GR Dam: ARMCH Goodwood Trillium *D E AR1418
GR Sire: MCH Lost Valley Ride the Wave *S VG
Dam: Master Champion Lost Valley RTW Madison 3*D
GR Dam: MCH Lost Valley Callisto 2*D VG


Honey (also from Solstice, don't have pic of her dam) Side and Rear View:



Bred to Pinnacle Blues:
MCH Prairie Wood Pinnacle Blues
Who won his MASTER CHAMPIONSHIP
on 3-31-07
Chamoisee Pinto Blue Eyed
GRS: Twin Creeks BW Riptide *S
Sire: Flat Rocks Prairie Hawk
GRD: Flat Rocks Lady Hawk
GRS: Velvet Acres Chittys Scandal
Dam: MASTER CHAMPION MK Ginger VAS 
GRD: MK Pallu RB


And, incase you forgot what the kids look like! :shock: I know I've posted a bunch already - but here are they are. The buckskins are Zuni's and the gold & white is Honey's.


So, what do you think - did we pick well? I would have been thrilled if the little gold & white guy was a doe... but he's adorable anyway!![/i]


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## ksacres (Oct 30, 2007)

Generally bucklings out of first fresheners are wethered, but once in a while you could have a really spectacular kid that you just know you can't wether. Most of the large show herds "tentatively" offer bucklings from first fresheners-if the doe produces in the range they think she should be as a first freshener they sell the buck kids-if not-they wether them. I don't think anyone can honestly make it a hard and fast rule of thumb that ALL buck kids from first fresheners should be wethered, after all, a doe is in her prime at about 4 years of age, which means she's producing kids for up to 3 years before she's evaluated in her prime. She may go SGCH at that point, and ALL her bucklings become worth more, not just the ones she had at 4 and over-she's still the same animal with the same genetics. I have two bucklings on reserve from a well known national herd from first fresheners-the only price range I can afford, before the does have proven themselves. But I also trust the owner and their integrity in selling only quality animals they would be happy to have themselves.


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