# It finally happened



## Lstein

On Sunday when I was getting ready to leave I looked out to see a coyote, standing not 10' away from the goats giving them the stare down. The goats were in the corral at the time, so there was a fence between them. My llamas though, were locked in a separate pen due to me weaning my replacement doelings and just not getting the two llamas seperated....so that there would be one with each group.

When it seen me, it of course started walking away....just walking. So I jumped in the vehicle to get to my parents, who live just down the road, for a gun. By time I got back up there it was gone. 

The fool I am, took the gun back thinking that the problem will be over because I'll just separate the llamas again so each group has one. The llama I put with my main herd, has demonstrated protective skills in the past; so I was pretty confident things will be somewhat ok.

Well fast forward, last night I was out with the goats and did a head count....missing one. One of the younger twins that was born in May. So I start to walk around the pasture and just below a hill, JUST out of sight of the house, is a feathered massacre. The majority of my ducks were wiped out. They are .... were....able to just free range, because in my pasture there's a nice spring that they enjoy playing in. Being that they are a larger breed, they didn't stand a chance.

While walking through the mess of feathers, I found a piece of a little goats jaw bone. No more then a day to a couple days old. Still had meat and stuff on it. I assumed it was before the llamas were with the goats, since it looked a couple days old to me. First goat I've officially lost to coyotes. Thinking still that the problem would be ok now, with the llama with them, I didn't do anything.

This morning I get up to go to work and look out the bathroom window to see the coyote chasing the goats around the pasture, I flew out of the house to the vehicle and drove like a madman to my folks for the gun. But of course by the time I get back up to my house its too far away. I waited quietly for about half an hour for her to come back, and i did catch a glimpse of her on the hill with the trees in front of it on the right side of the attached photo.

What bothers me now though, is that the llama wasn't doing anything. Just standing there silently watching. In the past she has been seen putting herself between her and the goats and keeping the coyote at bay. So there goes my....false....sense of security. 

I'm positive that this coyote has a batch of pups over there, I hear them yipping at night from that way. Tonight I'll be going on an expedition that way to see what I can find. In addition to ordering some wolf urine.

I'm starting to reconsider the large guard dog idea, but I'm still hesitant because I'm just gone so much of the day for work. Anyone have any advice? Would be most appreciated, also just venting helps.


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## Jessica84

If she has pups and already has made kills I don't know if the wolf pee would work. Keep the gun and kill her. She will soon start to bring those pups in and you will have a disaster on your hands. You can try the wolf pee but when I had my coyote issue I made sure that coyote and her 2 pups were gone before I used it. The wolf pee did a fantastic job for me I just didn't want any of them to be brave enough to chance not running into the wolf (if you will) and keep showing their buddies or pups that it was a joke.
I have no advise on the dogs. I have heard horror stories of when they don't work out and mine hate dogs so much I don't want To chance it. Another option could be to try and trade the llama in for one that will actually do its job. 
Also I am sorry for your loss and having to go threw this


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## ksalvagno

Hot wire. Sorry for your loss. When a llama is a true guard llama, they do a great job. But when they aren't, they aren't.


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## Lstein

I do have hot wire running the length of my pasture about my knee height. But now that you bring that up, I remembered that I did find her hole last night in my search. I was too upset to really notice what I found. I'll go inspect that tonight also, see if something can be done different there.

My pasture fencing is woven wire with two bards on the top, and one strand of hot wire about knee height....though that is on the inside of the fence.....


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## ksalvagno

I'd be putting multiple hot wires on the outside of the fence.


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## Lstein

I know I'm getting off track here but all I can do while at work is plot and scheme.

I'm leaning more in favor of having a great Pyrenees for a couple reasons; going to start researching my heart out on the topic and have reached out to two breeders to talk with to see what they think.

One point is that I've been having some "difficulties" with my llamas. This may or may not also be an issue with a LGD so any insight will be helpful. I get a lot of people coming to see the goats, not all the time but there are definitely strange people coming around. I am always present when they come. 

My llamas have no sense of personal space with new people. They know to leave me alone and my grandparents, people who see them regularly, but anyone else they are all in their face. This is definitely my fault, because as some may remember from me posting, the one was my bottle baby and not exposing her to more people and teaching her better manners. (She corrupted my other one now too)

So after a run of being excessively pushy in where thankfully the people visiting didn't notice what was happening and thought it was funny, they now get locked up before anyone is allowed in there.

I wouldn't be getting rid of my llamas if I were to go the LGD route, but they would be locked separate from the goats. So that would be another concern, is that they and the LGD would accept each other. In addition to, if the LGD would accept the llamas having control of one pasture that potentially has one group of goats in it. Any thoughts?

The second reason being that my llama card is up now, I always kind of accepted that just having one with them would help deter them too. But now that the coyote knows shes apparently a pushover....

I'm hoping I get the coyote tonight or tomorrow morning. I plan on getting up earlier and setting myself up on one of the round bales in the field and waiting for her. In addition to going down to her area tonight to see if i can flush her out.

Going to take the weed eater down to the fence so i can get two more hot wires up on the outside of it.

Just trying to figure out how I should proceed for the future and to make sure I expose any other issues.


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## Lstein

In other news there hasn't been a sighting anymore this morning, my grandparents have been hanging out at my house watching. So probably in the clear until this evening. They will be stopping in and through out the day.


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## Lstein

Jessica84 said:


> If she has pups and already has made kills I don't know if the wolf pee would work. Keep the gun and kill her. She will soon start to bring those pups in and you will have a disaster on your hands. You can try the wolf pee but when I had my coyote issue I made sure that coyote and her 2 pups were gone before I used it. The wolf pee did a fantastic job for me I just didn't want any of them to be brave enough to chance not running into the wolf (if you will) and keep showing their buddies or pups that it was a joke.


Good point, I'll hold off on using it until she's taken care of.


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## ksalvagno

You can introduce the dog with the llamas. The llamas should adjust with the dog sticking around.


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## toth boer goats

All good advice.

I am so sorry for the losses.


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## nancy d

Oh no! Things may be quiet for now but she will be back. I recommend you ALWAYS carry in your situation. And your gr parents should as well.


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## Lstein

I've been honestly quite stupid, I should know better than to not have one at the house. I've had run ins with the chickens every year, different episodes. I need to get on the ball and buy my own instead of borrowing one. Which is what happens, they ask for it back and everything seems calm so I don't bother.....until the next crisis.


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## Lstein

No sign of it last night or this morning. Last night I went and hung a shirt on the fence, over her hole she was using. This morning it was so foggy that I couldn't quite see the whole pasture but the goats seemed calm and before I left for work the fog broke up enough to see everything and no sign of her. My neighbors cows were in the area too so that may have helped.

Assuming the shirt card will only last a day or two, so still planning on early mornings and evenings of deck sitting with the gun.


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## Lstein

Still no sign of it. My neighbor to the south said he took a shot at a coyote (no idea if its the same one, he's about a mile and a half away) and rolled it, not sure if it was killed. 

Last night I was a little late in shutting the chickens for the night and I think something was in the area because everything was restless and even I could feel the tension. My parents cattle, to the north and east of me were bellering like mad and the goats were very skiddish (not normal) when I walked through them to get to the hen house.

So still staying on alert and ready. This weekend I'm hoping to devout more time to the "hunt" because, may sound crazy here but I'm positive this coyote knows my schedule and routine. I've just been having people keep stopping in at my house throughout the day all week, which I think is helping to throw her off.

Had a very informative conversation with a Great Pyrenees breeder last night and she also seems to think that one would be good in this situation. Going to think it over some more this weekend and make a decision.

My biggest concern is the roaming......I would hope that it would stay in the pasture with the the goats, because I live close to a main road. She seemed to think that the fencing I have would be sufficient unless the LGD seen a threat on the other side.


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## ksalvagno

I bet the coyote does know your schedule. I hope you get it.


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## Lstein

Attached is a bit of the layout just so there's a visual.


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## toth boer goats

The coyote will be back unless someone else shot it.


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## Honsby

I'm getting that you don't use a gun often enough to be able to hit anything if you have to use a borrowed one. Plus, I get that this situation just might be the tip of the iceberg for you in the long run.

I believe that given the choice, a 'yote will choose a duck over a goat, especially if it's earthbound. So, consider keeping a few of them around for that distraction. ( We lost 3 geese over three nights straight... and we live in the 'city'.)

You've got some space. Maybe consider getting a dedicated 'yote gun at some point and talk it over with neighbors to see what they are doing. _Any_ gun you'd get is way cheaper than a dog.

Huge dogs can only move so fast and it will constantly be tested by one or more coyotes. They will lessen the odds of their own demise by hunting at night and as a pack, will isolate your dog and kill it given the chance. It only takes a minute or two so, unless you are aware of what's happening,.. and unless you just like to have a huge dog around that -- although very lovable -- is not easily trained and not good for novice owners, that dog just might turn into something else you'll have to worry about.

Coyotes will dig under any wire so unless you're prepared to bury fencing a foot deep around the perimeter you shouldn't count on that at all. Plus, once they have an 'in' that a dog can't use they will conquer your flock/herd bit by bit.

Your area is probably full of coyote hunters. Maybe posting an ad, e.g.. @ a gun club, and inviting some hunters with night vision capability to come out for some casual pre-dawn coyote plinking wouldn't be a bad idea.

I know that feeling one gets by seeing feathers and carcasses all over the place (much less having to throw it all out because you can't use it) and I Hope it all works out for 'ya.


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## Madgoat

I haven't read all the posts, but my question is, why do you have to jump in a car and drive down the road to get a gun? That just doesn't make sense to me. I keep a 410 in my barn 24/7. 
You can't expect a predator to "wait" around. Get your own gun and keep it handy. 
As far as LGD, make sure you do your due diligence and get a dog that will do the job you need them to do. Sorry for your losses.


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## Lstein

Madgoat said:


> I haven't read all the posts, but my question is, why do you have to jump in a car and drive down the road to get a gun? That just doesn't make sense to me. I keep a 410 in my barn 24/7.
> You can't expect a predator to "wait" around. Get your own gun and keep it handy.
> As far as LGD, make sure you do your due diligence and get a dog that will do the job you need them to do. Sorry for your losses.


Yes very dumb on my part, I just haven't really had a run in with anything except for one sighting a few years ago. So buying my own just got pushed to the back burner, in addition to having zero interest in them, everyone around me being hunters and having their own armory worth, led to a false sense of security.

No sign of it over the weekend. We walked around the area where I assumed her den is and we didn't see her. (shocker) I'm wondering if just the increased activity around her area has made her a bit for cautious. Or that the one my neighbor shot at, was her. It also rained most of the weekend so the goats were in the barn mostly.

Either way, still mulling over the LGD idea.


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## Madgoat

Granted, the LGD idea is great. But regardless, you need some type of home protection. I don't know if you live alone, or with someone else, but you need to be able to defend yourself and protect your livestock in a moments' notice. Like I said, predators/criminals are going to give you a heads up, nor do you get a head start! I grew up fearing/hating guns. Now, I have quite a "selection" (all legal of course) not only for MY safety, but mainly for the protection of my animals. And after seeing a horse break his leg and we waited over 45 minutes for the vet, I would use my gun to put any injured (fatal) animal out of it's misery. 
Start with a .22 long rifle or a .410 shotgun. They are easy to handle and not expensive to buy or buy ammo for.


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## Jessica84

A 410 is NOT going to kill anything other then a snake, rat or a bird. They shells are also very expensive for what you are getting. If she uses a shot gun or any kind it's just going to keep it away for awhile and she will be back. When I had a issue with a bitch and her pups I shot the bitch and didn't kill her but did hit her and she just stayed away for a few weeks and came back in. When I finally nailed her i could see that I grazed her eye and she was missing half her toes on her front leg. And still she came back, a few BBs in the butt sure isn't going to detour her from coming back. 
She had already said she needs to get a gun and plans on getting one.
I think it depends on your area and how agressive the coyotes are. Here they are about but are not overly agressive. They will not go threw, under or over a fence. They do not like anything that looks like a trap. You covering her hole might be what is keeping her out, she may have been shot. Who knows but keep your eye open.
I wouldn't not get a LGD, just do your homework first. I have seen so many people have issues with them before, as well as many people that have been super happy with them. I would still go the extra mile even if you do decide to get one and make sure there are no more holes anything can get under the fence. I also like the idea of the hot fence being on the out side. I have one strand on the inside just to keep the goats in and not rip my fence apart and that was enough to stop 2 dogs from getting in.
Also now that I'm thinking about it, by any chance did the kid get out on at that hole and the coyote got it? Last year I found a few kids out and found their hole and when I did a head count realized I had one missing. Once I blocked the hole with rocks no one else got out and I didn't loose another one


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## Lstein

Just to clear up a detail I've been seeing in reference to me (and I'm not taking offense to it, find it humorous) I'm a guy, just naive  and chose to ignore the hunting side of growing up a farm kid.



Jessica84 said:


> A 410 is NOT going to kill anything other then a snake, rat or a bird. They shells are also very expensive for what you are getting. If she uses a shot gun or any kind it's just going to keep it away for awhile and she will be back.
> I think it depends on your area and how agressive the coyotes are. Here they are about but are not overly agressive. They will not go threw, under or over a fence. They do not like anything that looks like a trap. You covering her hole might be what is keeping her out, she may have been shot. Who knows but keep your eye open.


 I feel like this is closer to what I was previously dealing with (probably changed now that she knows whats there) because I hadn't seen any sign of them being in the fence before. The coyotes here are definitely nowhere near as bold as from what I've heard/seen in other states. It's still very rural here. But I could be wrong.



Jessica84 said:


> Also now that I'm thinking about it, by any chance did the kid get out on at that hole and the coyote got it? Last year I found a few kids out and found their hole and when I did a head count realized I had one missing. Once I blocked the hole with rocks no one else got out and I didn't loose another one.


I don't think the kid got out, just based on the type of hole/spot it is, I'll try and snap a picture if I remember.


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## Jessica84

You know I'm usually pretty good at putting she/he because you never know lol but nope even my brother never really got all that into guns or hunting till he was a adult and we are huge gun owners so nothing wrong with that (plus I never liked the whole hunting thing either and still don't I just like guns lol)
But bottom line here I would still keep a eye out for her, all the activity that has been going on with you walking around might be keeping her away or she could be gone. 
You mentioned there are a lot of hunters in your area (???) I'm not sure if it's legal in other states, it is in California but I've learned just about everything is, you could look into it trapping is legal in your state and have someone come out trap her.....not the live traps but where they catch a leg


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## Lstein

Jessica84 said:


> You know I'm usually pretty good at putting she/he because you never know lol but nope even my brother never really got all that into guns or hunting till he was a adult and we are huge gun owners so nothing wrong with that (plus I never liked the whole hunting thing either and still don't I just like guns lol)
> But bottom line here I would still keep a eye out for her, all the activity that has been going on with you walking around might be keeping her away or she could be gone.
> You mentioned there are a lot of hunters in your area (???) I'm not sure if it's legal in other states, it is in California but I've learned just about everything is, you could look into it trapping is legal in your state and have someone come out trap her.....not the live traps but where they catch a leg


I've been looking into the snare style trap with the wire rope. I think it would be a good fit for the spot she's getting through.

My uncle, who also lives in the area, has a lot of traps, the leg grabbing kind. Going to have to see if he could come up with something, he's been out of town during this whole thing so far.


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## Madgoat

Jessica84 said:


> A 410 is NOT going to kill anything other then a snake, rat or a bird. They shells are also very expensive for what you are getting.


Well, it works fine for my use, and I've shot possums, armadillos, and popped a "big" cat once. The cat has never come back. The buckshot might not kill but I think it's like hot wire, once an animal gets zapped once or twice they stay away. And, I thought, (sorry Lstein) that the OP was a girl without experience with guns so I thought a 410 would be a good "novice" weapon.


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## wifeof1

I use buckshot wit 5 pellets in my 410. It tears up coyotes.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Goat Forum mobile app


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## Jessica84

The snare might work! YEARS ago my parents trapped and used the leg traps but also the snares. Coyotes were always the hardest to get a leg because they could smell the metal and would end up pawing the traps till they went off


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## Goatzrule

Just shoot them because you're going to have a whole new generation of pups to protect your animals from


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## capracreek

Coyotes are a big pain. At night they sound like a bunch of banchees. They are wiley and smart so to actually catch one to shoot is a big challenge - you might consider setting traps around outside your fence. I would put one at the hole you found. Even if you have a gun you can't be there 24/7.


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## Lstein

I set up two snares last night. One over her hole getting into my goats pasture and the other is on my neighbors fence - going into my hay field; where she then crosses into the goat pasture. 

There's an obvious path, grass tramped down, and some of her fur on the neighbors fence. (It's old buffalo fence, so really tall woven with two strands of barbed wire on the bottom. Only way through is through the barbed.

So I set up the two snares, sprayed them with this de-scent stuff, kind of sprayed the whole area and took down my shirt off the fence. Should maybe pick up some of the feathers everywhere and put them somewhere close to it on the other side.....?

Also went, with the gun, over to the area she always runs to. Over there I found more evidence of feathers (obviously my ducks, only white and black birds around really) kind of out in a flat area. So I walked around on the hill and tried looking for any signs of a "den". Didn't see any sign of a small goat carcass though.

I didn't find anything that looked like it had obvious signs of activity. Though there was this one spot that looked like it was previously a den for something but caved in recently, I'm assuming from all the rain we've been getting the last couple days. The only thing I noticed there that I thought showed signs of activity were one feather (was all white so could possibly be from something else) and that there's no grass around it and any there is is browned/tramped down.

So if that was her's it appears she moved the pups somewhere else. At that point it was getting dark, so I didn't go any farther. Tonight I'm going to look along the river in my parents pasture, which is to the south of me; also near that area. Since that seems to be where they keep their den, along the side of a hill.

Otherwise no sightings of her. I didn't get a chance to physically go down to the snares this morning to see if they've been disturbed or anything but I looked with binoculars at both of them and didn't see anything caught.


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## capracreek

I know when I go out at night to shut everything up I get goose bumps when I hear the coyotes howling. To date I have never seen one but I am always concerned. I do have Dobermans but they never run loose as I don't want one injured since I show them. Maybe just the being around keeps the coyotes away from our property.. If you do not have a duck coop you can make one real easily with pallets. My husband made one attached to our chicken coop and all is enclosed with a fence that would not really keep anything out if it wanted in but since they are all locked up I don't worry at night. I would post a picture but I would need to upload it from my computer and it seems like mission impossible. I don't understand all this url stuff and do not put my pictures on some photo site for the world to steal.


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## Lstein

I do have a coop the ducks stay in at night, but I had liked letting them out to free range because running right next to my garden I have a natural spring that they love to play in. It's a spring that fills this basin (where the goats get their water) and the over flow (it used to connect to another basin at my parents) from that basin makes a little stream and pond, and from there goes down the hill and irrigates the whole bottom of the pasture for the most part. Can kind of see it from the attached pictures.

I use the little stream to siphon off water for my garden, worked pretty well this year.

Which is another goal for the future, dam off this area between my two hills to make a rather large dam. Since the spring is constantly flowing, even in winter, the little pond I have never freezes.

It's in the plans to make a duck pen over that area so that they can just always be in it but still be in a fence. Just keeps getting pushed back 

So now they are locked in the fence attached to their coop, in duck jail. Have to settle for the kiddy swimming pool. Plus I only have 3 drakes and one hen left, so I need to really keep track of any eggs I get from her. Unfortunately I think she's done laying for year, so my duck population is hanging by a thread really.


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## TDG-Farms

Normally I wouldnt suggest you calling a yote in to where your animals are. But the dog has already killed and will continue to kill. Get a cheap predator call, set up concealed, call the yote in and shoot it. If you dont want or have the means to do this, you might post an ad on craigslist for someone to come and do it for you. Its a little close to opening deer / elk season but you may find a hunter that would be willing to spend a day there and take care of your problem.


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## Jessica84

TDG-Farms said:


> Normally I wouldnt suggest you calling a yote in to where your animals are. But the dog has already killed and will continue to kill. Get a cheap predator call, set up concealed, call the yote in and shoot it. If you dont want or have the means to do this, you might post an ad on craigslist for someone to come and do it for you. Its a little close to opening deer / elk season but you may find a hunter that would be willing to spend a day there and take care of your problem.


That's what I was just thinking too. He also has a lot of ground around the goats that he wouldn't have to call right there next to the goats. It sounds like your uncle is pretty supplied on stuff for hunting and trapping ask him if he has a call. You can also try to get her to come in and get snared by putting a dead squirrel on the other side of the fence where she has to go threw the snare to get it


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## Goatzrule

Keep us updated


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## bigz48877

Lstein said:


> On Sunday when I was getting ready to leave I looked out to see a coyote, standing not 10' away from the goats giving them the stare down. The goats were in the corral at the time, so there was a fence between them. My llamas though, were locked in a separate pen due to me weaning my replacement doelings and just not getting the two llamas seperated....so that there would be one with each group.
> 
> When it seen me, it of course started walking away....just walking. So I jumped in the vehicle to get to my parents, who live just down the road, for a gun. By time I got back up there it was gone.
> 
> The fool I am, took the gun back thinking that the problem will be over because I'll just separate the llamas again so each group has one. The llama I put with my main herd, has demonstrated protective skills in the past; so I was pretty confident things will be somewhat ok.
> 
> Well fast forward, last night I was out with the goats and did a head count....missing one. One of the younger twins that was born in May. So I start to walk around the pasture and just below a hill, JUST out of sight of the house, is a feathered massacre. The majority of my ducks were wiped out. They are .... were....able to just free range, because in my pasture there's a nice spring that they enjoy playing in. Being that they are a larger breed, they didn't stand a chance.
> 
> While walking through the mess of feathers, I found a piece of a little goats jaw bone. No more then a day to a couple days old. Still had meat and stuff on it. I assumed it was before the llamas were with the goats, since it looked a couple days old to me. First goat I've officially lost to coyotes. Thinking still that the problem would be ok now, with the llama with them, I didn't do anything.
> 
> This morning I get up to go to work and look out the bathroom window to see the coyote chasing the goats around the pasture, I flew out of the house to the vehicle and drove like a madman to my folks for the gun. But of course by the time I get back up to my house its too far away. I waited quietly for about half an hour for her to come back, and i did catch a glimpse of her on the hill with the trees in front of it on the right side of the attached photo.
> 
> What bothers me now though, is that the llama wasn't doing anything. Just standing there silently watching. In the past she has been seen putting herself between her and the goats and keeping the coyote at bay. So there goes my....false....sense of security.
> 
> I'm positive that this coyote has a batch of pups over there, I hear them yipping at night from that way. Tonight I'll be going on an expedition that way to see what I can find. In addition to ordering some wolf urine.
> 
> I'm starting to reconsider the large guard dog idea, but I'm still hesitant because I'm just gone so much of the day for work. Anyone have any advice? Would be most appreciated, also just venting helps.


Your a farmer and you don't have a gun at your house at all times? That's weird. Also if I saw a coyote attacking my goats and I didn't have a gun I would grab the nearest thing I could use as a weapon pitch fork, baseball bat, crow bar whatever go out to the pasture and kill it


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## Lstein

bigz48877 said:


> . Also if I saw a coyote attacking my goats and I didn't have a gun I would grab the nearest thing I could use as a weapon pitch fork, baseball bat, crow bar whatever go out to the pasture and kill it


 Good luck with that.


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## TexasGoatMan

Lstein, I read your posts and feel for your loss. Listen to what I am going to tell you !! Coyotes never quit !! They will continue to come back for food over and over again and again. They strike in the night more so than day time. Chickens, ducks and goats are easy meals for them and that is plain and simple facts !!! I have always had problems with coyotes. They breed like rats and a female coyote can have as many as 12 pups and raise them all. A female pup will breed by the time she is a year old, So in 2 years you have a large number of coyotes running and feeding on what ever they can find to eat. Deer fawns are also heavy prey on by coyotes. My solution for coyotes is a combination; first a gun is a must. A good 22 mag is enough but 223 cal. is better dosage for coyotes with a good scope and make sure it is sighted in for 100 yards. Just this year, I have killed one in my pen, one just out side the pen and another one about 100 yards out looking for something to eat. Learn how to use it really well. Second I talk with my neighbors and got permission to set snares where there are no livestock running and have caught over 30 coyotes in the past 3 years. The hole in the fence that you found is a perfect place to set one. Set it back just far enough that your goats can't stick their head through it and kind of funnel the coyote into it with sticks pushed into the ground. Coyotes are use to sticking their heads through brush, wire and briers and such, So they don't realize a snare and just walk through it. Bad mistake ! Keep your scent to a minimum if possible. Make sure it is the non-relax kind cause you want the coyote dead when you find him. Also be sure to secure it real good cause all heck is going to take place for a few minutes. To say I hate coyotes is an understatement. I still loose chickens to them but so far no goats. Care must be taken when setting snares to prevent deer and other non target animals from getting into them. The Snare shop is a great place to order your snares from (find them online). Snares are cheap and are on the job 24/7. I am not sure where you live but check your state laws on trapping/snaring coyotes and comply with them. Here in Texas coyotes are considered varmint and can be hunted 365 with any means.(Thank God for That). I have a couple of dogs but they are not in the pen running with the goats however they do bark at the coyotes and alert me of something being wrong. I would suggest getting rid of the llamas and a good guard dog or 2 and get a pup and raise it with your goats and chickens so it will be use to them and perform as a guard for them. Coyotes will run in a pack of 2 or more so I suggest 2 dgos as 2 coyotes against 1 dog is not good odds. Large breed GD is best. I have a German shepherd that is 3/4 German bred, 1/4 American (police dogs in her bloodline) and she does not bother the goats or chickens as I raised her with them. She hates a coyote. She is bred to a full German bred dog that is a big beautiful solid black dog and is traines in search and rescue. Expecting pups 22 Sept. Pups will be 15/16 German bred. Both parents are Exceptionally smart dog that want to please you. Should have a few pups for sale if anyone who reads this is interested. Lstein, I hope I have given you some idea as to what you are up against with the coyotes. They will always be around lurking and waiting for an opportunity to strike. Eliminating some of them is the only relief and workable solution you are going to get. Eliminating some of them frees up natural food sources for the others and helps keep them away from your livestock. Good luck


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## Lstein

TexasGoatMan said:


> I am not sure where you live but check your state laws on trapping/snaring coyotes and comply with them.


The wording in this article is hard to read, but I'm under the assumption that what they are trying to say is: if you have a furbearer's license and (probably) gone through hunter safety, you're pretty much good?

https://www.coyotehunting101.com/north-dakota-coyote-hunting/

Thanks for the tips! It's great to hear other's experiences on this. I do have two snares set up, they are the kind you area describing. I fear my scent is probably all over them though, but if the coyote is going to use her two holes that i put them in front of; she must go through the cable or dig a new one.

So far I haven't seen any disturbance to either cable nor any holes under the fence, I've been making it a routine to walk along the whole thing every night. Which may be helping a bit too, more increase activity.....but I almost wish she would show up again, now that I'm ready for her.


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## wifeof1

If I had to be "Naked and Afraid", I'd want a partner like Texasgoatman.

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## bigz48877

Lstein said:


> Good luck with that.


I have experience dealing with coyotes up close and personal. Yes I could kill a coyote with a hand held weapon.

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## Lstein

bigz48877 said:


> I have experience dealing with coyotes up close and personal. Yes I could kill a coyote with a hand held weapon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S327VL using Goat Forum mobile app


I guess the ones we have here aren't quite that brave yet then.


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## bigz48877

Lstein said:


> I guess the ones we have here aren't quite that brave yet then.


My main point is if a coyote is attacking your animals go out to the pen or pasture and stop it immediately. You should known that you would not have to drive down the road get the gun at your neighbors house and make it back in time to stop the coyote common man


Lstein said:


> I guess the ones we have here aren't quite that brave yet then.


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## confederatemule

I've read every word here. You have gotten many good suggestions. At this point I'd like to add my thoughts and, maybe, ask a question or two that I don't expect you to answer.
1] A 12 gauge shotgun is very good for close range shooting. A .410 is good for even closer range. Look up the range for each.
2] A rifle is good for long range. Some longer than others. I do not recommend a .22 unless it is a magnum rifle. With a .22 the shooter has to be a much better shot. The larger caliber does a lot more damage when it makes contact, which relates to better chances of a kill. I recommend a .30-30 lever action rifle.
3] ALWAYS shoot to kill. Never shoot to injure. Killing is one thang, torturing is cruel and uncalled for, unless by accident.
4] NO DOG, unless securely confined when other people come around.
5] I use and have a standard size Donkey. She is great.
6] I do not trust web wire nor barbed wire. They are okay for cows or horses. I use electric fencing, only. Not an electric wire with very small amperage and voltage. If possible get one that operates off of AC current, not battery or solar. I use the Zareba 6 Joule 100-Mile AC-Powered Charger. Where I want to fence off a small area with no electricity available I use a Zareba 30 Mile Solar Powered Low Impedance Charger.
7] Use wire not tape. Leave the one you have where it is, but add another one on the outside of the posts. Add another wire at least 6 inches (no more or less) away from the posts and 6 inches (no more or less) above the ground, I recommend one on the inside also. You can buy wire insulators that extend the wire 6" away from the posts.
8] Study on how to properly install an electric fence. I've been using them since the early '30's and did an extensive search for new knowledge and was amazed at what I learned. I thought I already knew it all.
9] Study firearms and practice, practice, practice. Get an inexpensive .22 for the practice shooting. Make sure it is sighted in properly.
10] I use to see coyotes and foxes regularly. For three seasons a fox raised a litter in one of my sheds. I enjoyed watching her and him and them. Now that shed is in the fenced area. The only things I see now are rabbits and squirrels.

I said all of this just to share what works fer me and give you something to think about.

Mule


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## Lstein

@confederatemule Thanks for your thoughts, appreciate it. Having all these views in one thread is great, not just for me but anyone else that may come across this thread someday. Also it's great to see more realistic options.



confederatemule said:


> I use and have a standard size Donkey. She is great.


I haven't done a whole lot of research on donkeys. One of the big concerns I always have had with them is the (not sure if it's true or not) but them possibly not accepting new herd members, aka, baby goats. Have you ever had any difficulty with that? Did you get her specifically for guarding or is it something she happened to fit in to?


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## confederatemule

Lstein said:


> I haven't done a whole lot of research on donkeys. One of the big concerns I always have had with them is the (not sure if it's true or not) but them possibly not accepting new herd members, aka, baby goats. Have you ever had any difficulty with that? Did you get her specifically for guarding or is it something she happened to fit in to?


Lstein, I got her at 7 years old. she was a companion, all her life, to an older horse. The horse died about a year before I got her. I've had her a couple of years now. We had two grown Nubian goats that are inseparable. We knew in advance that she hates dogs. The lady who gave her to us had a boarding house for dogs. She attacked every dog that crossed the fence. We got the donkey to be a Guardian. She had never seen a goat in her life. We put the donkey and goats in the same area and kept a close eye on them for a while. Within a week they were resting together. The first time one of our roosters got in her territory he was attacked by a four legged spotted monster. The rooster slid back through the electric fence. Whew! We added an orphaned kid early this spring, March. Once she got used to it moving around with us she accepted it completely. She watches over the new goat as if it was hers. She stands over the kid to be sure it is not pushed around at meal time. In May we added 2 more babies. She gladly accepted them into her family. It rained last night and when it got daylight, to my surprise, the oldest kid had her head hung in a hay feeder that hangs on the fence gate. I don't know how long she had been there but the donkey was standing there in the rain guarding her. She was not trained to do anything.
I don't recommend a male donkey of any kind. No Stud. No gelding.
Again, before you get one be sure to read all you can find on care and feeding.

Again, this is what works for me.

Mule

The Donkey was considered mean by the previous owner. The lady and her helper were afraid of her. They said she would kick and bite people. There was a halter on her but they were afraid to lead her. We did have a hard time loading her in an open trailer because of them. I finally convince them to get way back out of the way. She has never bit or kicked anyone here.


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## confederatemule

electric fences ... 
http://www.zarebasystems.com/learning-center/animal-selector/sheep-goats

Mule


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## TexasGoatMan

wifeof1 said:


> If I had to be "Naked and Afraid", I'd want a partner like Texasgoatman.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Goat Forum mobile app


Your to kind


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## Jessica84

If you go with a hot fence on the outside as well I totally recommend this one
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=1eb46a13-4bd6-4ca7-aa77-a2dba29c14f0
It is MEAN!!! It's the one that stopped the dogs I told you about and also I put around my buck pen because I have spoiled bulls that will just rip their panels apart wanting their hay. It no joke sounds like a bull whip when something touches it. 
It's very educational seeing the difference in coyotes from place to place and how they act. Here you very rarely see more then one together unless it's a mom and her pups or probably when they are breeding. Most of the time it's just one. Texasgoatman you and my husband would get along great lol he hates them too. I don't care one way or another about them as long as they stay away from my animals. But other then the one year I let moms and kids free range I've never really had a issue with them. I just now keep them locked up when kids start to come. It's just way to easy for them to get kids and run. One day I lost 7 and that was the day I started on a fence. 
I also want to say I would have done the same thing as you by going to get a gun. You took the chance of trying to kill it and have it all end instead of just chasing it off......yeah no way are you getting up close to a coyote to kil it with anything that doesn't shoot!


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## Lstein

One down! Caught that it on the snare I set in the neighbors fence where I found one of its holes.

Looks like it was a close catch, caught it around the waist. Any trouble shooting tips for that?

Not convinced it's the one I'm after, seems somewhat small and no visible signs of her nursing pups.

So guard still not going down and going to reset this one and a add a few more.


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## confederatemule

Realy good lookin Coyote. I hate to kill wild animals that I am not gonna eat, but sometimes it has to be done. Course the exception is a Skunk.


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## wifeof1

If i were there I would skin it and make a milking seat outa the hide.

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## Jessica84

wifeof1 said:


> If i were there I would skin it and make a milking seat outa the hide.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Goat Forum mobile app


I would skin it too. That's a nice hide! The ones here are nasty disease infested.
Good job on getting it though! Sometimes they look smaller or larger once you get up on them we can cross our fingers that's the one. Make your snare hole smaller that I think should fix the issue


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## CaprineCrazyGirl

I'm so glad to hear you got one! 
True, 'tis a beaut, But it's good you caught it when you did, I can only imagine what damage it would have done if it wasn't caught then!

I wholeheartedly agree with keeping your guard up.


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## TexasGoatMan

That's what I talking about. The snare is by far the easiest and most efficient coyote catcher there is. I love'em Glad you got here now just reset the snare if it is not destroyed. I guarantee you that more are nearby. Some post say what a good looking coyote she is. I say she is only good looking cause she is hanging upside down


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## goathiker

confederatemule said:


> Realy good lookin Coyote. I hate to kill wild animals that I am not gonna eat, but sometimes it has to be done. Course the exception is a Skunk.


I have a little skunk that raises her kittens here every year, she never causes any trouble. 
Maybe you're talking about Civit Cats though, those things have no manners at all. 
Around here the coyotes are wimpy and the raccoons are insane.









In a world of ordinary people a superman is not a king. 
He cannot rule the world. 
He is simply alone... 
Dean Koontz


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## Honsby

I like the conibear traps (***** and skunks) because I can disable them quickly during the daytime when the chickens are roaming around. 

Also, how did that snare actually kill the coyote?


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## Lstein

TexasGoatMan said:


> That's what I talking about. The snare is by far the easiest and most efficient coyote catcher there is. I love'em Glad you got here now just reset the snare if it is not destroyed. I guarantee you that more are nearby. Some post say what a good looking coyote she is. I say she is only good looking cause she is hanging upside down


I had to cut the snare unfortunately. The only way I could locally buy them was a pack of 10, so I do have more ready.

After cutting the snare and taking the coyote down, it's obvious that it's a young one.....probably one of the pups? Also probably why it looks so nice too.

For a comparison, it was small enough to fit through one of those squares in the fence; the snare was wrapped through one of those squares, in addition to several times around the barbed on the bottom. That photo makes it look quite large.....somehow, since the top of that fence is about 6'.

So the main target is still out there, and apparently a few young ones looking to stake out their own territory.

I regret that I didn't get down there and check Friday evening, didn't make it down there until Saturday evening....so it suffered. Would have rather just finished it right away. Another lesson learned.


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## Honsby

Lstein said:


> So the main target is still out there, and apparently a few young ones looking to stake out their own territory.


What I was getting at was to let you know that you _WILL_ come upon a live animal in a snare trap at some point. If they come loose and you're there, how will you deal with it? At the very least you should think about sporting a small aluminum baseball bat when you check your traps.

I personally (humanely?) went the live trap route but when it came time to let out the big **** in the woods a few miles away it wouldn't let me near the latch and frankly, scared the he!! out of me. You can guess what happened next.

P.S. In case anyone doesn't know where to buy traps 'n such, I would highly recommend these folks: 

https://www.fntpost.com/
https://www.fntpost.com/


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## Madgoat

Lstein said:


> I regret that I didn't get down there and check Friday evening, didn't make it down there until Saturday evening....so it suffered. Would have rather just finished it right away. Another lesson learned.


I'm sorry but this really bothers me. I don't know what your schedule is, but you have a responsibility to make sure NO animal suffers needlessly. JMO


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## CrazyDogLady

I swear by my LGDs. I live remotely, with BLM land and mountain ranges. We have some of those released Mexican wolves taking cattle not a quarter mile from our property, and more coyotes than you can shake a stick at. I hear them all the time, but don't see hide nor hair. I haven't lost a ND kid, chicken or chihuahua, which I attribute to my big fluffies.

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## Honsby

Madgoat said:


> I'm sorry but this really bothers me. I don't know what your schedule is, but you have a responsibility to make sure NO animal suffers needlessly. JMO


Whoa Karen. (You are so adorable.)
Fate put that coyote in the snare, not LSTEIN. A goat would suffer way more if that coyote got hold of it. It's up to us to prioritize ANY suffering and this is how it's done.


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## Madgoat

Honsby said:


> Whoa Karen. (You are so adorable.)
> Fate put that coyote in the snare, not LSTEIN. A goat would suffer way more if that coyote got hold of it. It's up to us to prioritize ANY suffering and this is how it's done.


I respectfully disagree. And I'm not questioning LSTEIN's "reasons" or procedures. I support him 100% in protecting his livestock. I'm just saying, if you are going to attempt to trap a living animal, no matter WHAT it is or WHY, then YOU have a responsibility to be as humane as possible, which in my opinion, means not setting a snare and then waiting 24 hours or more to "check" it.


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## Madgoat

Honsby said:


> Whoa Karen. (You are so adorable.)
> Fate put that coyote in the snare, not LSTEIN. A goat would suffer way more if that coyote got hold of it. It's up to us to prioritize ANY suffering and this is how it's done.


I respectfully disagree. And I'm not questioning LSTEIN's "reasons" or procedures. I support him 100% in protecting his livestock. I'm just saying, if you are going to attempt to trap a living animal, no matter WHAT it is or WHY, then YOU have a responsibility to be as humane as possible, which in my opinion, means not setting a snare and then waiting 24 hours or more to "check" it.


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## Honsby

Madgoat said:


> I respectfully disagree.


That you're adorable? lol

I'm just gonna believe that the coyote expired 5 minutes before the trap was checked and let it be. Nobody could know anyway. Of course, anyone that sets a snare trap expects the critter to stay alive until it gets the proper coup de grâce and it just didn't go down that way.

I'm thinking that LSTEIN is just beginning to realize that having to take an active role in protecting the flock will be chock full of mistakes and short comings. I'll drink to that.


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## Madgoat

No, silly! I know I'm adorable and thank you for noticing!


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## Jessica84

We all make mistakes. If he had gloated in the fact that he didn't go check it then I would be with you 100% but he already said that he regrets not going down and checking it. There is no way I could even count the amount of mistakes I have made. It's part of being human! Yes it's sad and unsettling it suffered, I don't like things to suffer either but it was better then doing nothing to protect his goats which by taking them in your basically making a promise to protect them, and I bet he will keep a eye on those snares a lot more now


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## Madgoat

I agree that LSTEIN made a honest mistake, I was talking about the concept of trapping, not trying to throw mud on him. He did state that it was a lesson learned.


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## TexasGoatMan

The Snare shop online is a great place to buy. Coyote snares with aircraft cable for a little over 2 bucks each. A bargin price.


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## TexasGoatMan

You guys are so concerned about the coyote suffering. I am a little confused here. I thought the goal was to protect our goats,chickens and calves and not give a hoot about how or how many coyotes one takes out of the population. Obviously most of you guys don't understand how coyotes work in packs or singles. As for myself the only good coyote is a dead coyote. I don't like to see any animals suffer but coyotes bring out a big dislike for them in me. Nuff said


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## Goats Rock

You can get a nice .22 with a scope and lots of bullets pretty reasonable. Just target practice until you are comfortable. A 20 gauge or .410 shotgun is reasonable too. 

A gun is just like any tool, use it until you are comfortable. I know not everyone has or wants a firearm, but they sure can be handy tools! 

We are fortunate in the good old USA to be able to purchase firearms pretty easily, in most states! 

Good luck removing your 'yotes!


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## Madgoat

Taking the life of anything should not be taken lightly. My "mind" realizes you have to protect yourself and your livestock, but my "heart" hurts when it's done. I'm sorry you don't value coyotes and that's your prerogative, I happen to think they are very smart, extremely adaptable, and doing what nature designed for all predators to do. This isn't to say I wouldn't shoot one if I caught it attacking my animals. But I sure wouldn't be dancing the jig about it.


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## Honsby

Madgoat said:


> This isn't to say I wouldn't shoot one if I caught it attacking my animals.


If it gets to this point you have failed to protect your animals. This is why people actively seek out and shoot the predators.

So Karen, as a point of discussion, you wouldn't shoot an alligator that's within 10 feet of a baby goat?


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## bigz48877

Honsby said:


> If it gets to this point you have failed to protect your animals. This is why people actively seek out and shoot the predators.
> 
> So Karen, as a point of discussion, you wouldn't shoot an alligator that's within 10 feet of a baby goat?


Man I totally agree with you. I think guys like Lstein and most of the people on this thread need to stop being wussies, get a gun and get rid of the coyotes.

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## ksalvagno

Remember to keep it friendly, keep it fun. No personal attacks.


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## Lstein

bigz48877 said:


> Man I totally agree with you. I think guys like Lstein and most of the people on this thread need to stop being wussies, get a gun and get rid of the coyotes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S327VL using Goat Forum mobile app


Do you have anything of actual import to contribute or are you just here to lay out insults?

Everyone is on this forum to learn how best to take care of their goats, post their experiences, and discuss. Which in doing so, lays out written information that anyone can stumble across and find useful. Let's be honest, there's not a goldmine of information on goat experiences out there other than here.

As far as me not having a gun (at the time), do you keep a fire extinguisher in your barn? Yes? Great! No? Stop being careless and get one, it's arguably a bigger threat. The list can go on and on with the "should you/do you" things, majority of people don't really prepare for potential accidents until it happens to them. Which this is a case of. Being from a family full of hunters but not having an interest in it myself; was a false sense of security when there's, collectively, a whole armory within a mile of me.

The coyote suffering? Yes, it bothered me; it would to any person. I would have rather it ended quickly by chocking or was still alive when I came across it. Seeing a young animal hanging by it's rear, tearing at the ground (which you can see from the picture) and slowly dying to what I assume is intestinal blockage; bothered me and should any rational human. Will I take down my snares I have out now? No. I now know that the way I caught it can happen and need to watch for it closer.

Does that mean I can't find it it me to go out and kill a coyote, not at all. It hasn't been a threat before in the five years I've lived on my farm or the rest of my life on my parents farm, now it is. Once again, predators don't behave the same everywhere. I'm in North Dakota, game is abundant; the game population is greater than the number of people. Normally predators here don't resort to going where humans are present.

Both of those are experiences and mistakes I had, shared, got information on how to deal with and prevent in the future. Now someone, member or lurker, can learn from it. That's how communities help each other.

There's been some valued information here, do we really need to sully it with insults?

That's not just directed at you either.


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## bigz48877

Lstein said:


> Do you have anything of actual import to contribute or are you just here to lay out insults?
> 
> Everyone is on this forum to learn how best to take care of their goats, post their experiences, and discuss. Which in doing so, lays out written information that anyone can stumble across and find useful. Let's be honest, there's not a goldmine of information on goat experiences out there other than here.
> 
> As far as me not having a gun (at the time), do you keep a fire extinguisher in your barn? Yes? Great! No? Stop being careless and get one, it's arguably a bigger threat. The list can go on and on with the "should you/do you" things, majority of people don't really prepare for potential accidents until it happens to them. Which this is a case of. Being from a family full of hunters but not having an interest in it myself; was a false sense of security when there's, collectively, a whole armory within a mile of me.
> 
> The coyote suffering? Yes, it bothered me; it would to any person. I would have rather it ended quickly by chocking or was still alive when I came across it. Seeing a young animal hanging by it's rear, tearing at the ground (which you can see from the picture) and slowly dying to what I assume is intestinal blockage; bothered me and should any rational human. Will I take down my snares I have out now? No. I now know that the way I caught it can happen and need to watch for it closer.
> 
> Does that mean I can't find it it me to go out and kill a coyote, not at all. It hasn't been a threat before in the five years I've lived on my farm or the rest of my life on my parents farm, now it is. Once again, predators don't behave the same everywhere. I'm in North Dakota, game is abundant; the game population is greater than the number of people. Normally predators here don't resort to going where humans are present.
> 
> Both of those are experiences and mistakes I had, shared, got information on how to deal with and prevent in the future. Now someone, member or lurker, can learn from it. That's how communities help each other.
> 
> There's been some valued information here, do we really need to sully it with insults?
> 
> That's not just directed at you either.


Well said. I'm not going to comment on this thread any more and unfollow it because I don't say nice things I can't help it.

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## Jessica84

^^ you said that very well and you shouldn't have had to defend yourself :/ I would like to meet one person that can honestly say they never said I wish I did/didn't do something. We are human, we make mistakes, we don't think of every little thing. Not only that but he said he is getting a gun, do any of you know what hoops he has to jump threw to get a gun in his state? It's most likely not just hit the store and grab a gun and walk out. I don't think any state is like that any more. There is a back ground checkthat takes time.


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## Honsby

We live in the 'city' (town of about 3,000) across the street from a school yard yet last Spring (after the sunrise) I saw a coyote out in the orchard scoping out the chickens. 

I did the next best thing. I bought a pellet rifle. At 1,250 fps, that small pellet can make any canine seek better surroundings very quickly and it has come in handy when a **** was actually trapped inside the pen area. 

You have to think about self-preservation too.


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## Madgoat

Honsby said:


> If it gets to this point you have failed to protect your animals. This is why people actively seek out and shoot the predators.
> 
> So Karen, as a point of discussion, you wouldn't shoot an alligator that's within 10 feet of a baby goat?


Okay, I guess I should have been clearer in my statement. This is how "I" feel. 
I would shoot a predator that was actively attacking my animals. If I caught a predator "stalking" my animals I would also shoot it. If it was "checking" things out, i.e. how secure my fence was, then I would most like shoot into the ground close to it. Animals are like thief's, they want an easy in and out. If they have to work to long to get the prize, they'll go to the next place.
I hope that makes sense. And as to an alligator, hmmm, well, after I changed my pants, I would probably try to get it moved it far away, just like I do my snakes that go after my chicken eggs. I didn't blame the snake(s) for going after my eggs, heck, that's what they do! So I catch them, take them at least 5 miles away and turn them loose in a preserve. Then I came home and secured my pen so the snakes can't get in. That way, my chickens are safe/happy and the snake is going elsewhere for his dinner. I do everything in my power to make sure my animals have the safest home possible. 
I have issues with your comment: "This is why people actively seek out and shoot the predators." Why would anyone want to kill an animal that hasn't done anything wrong? Just because they "might"?
I don't believe that way.


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## Jessica84

I can't say I go out to shoot predators but I had the same thinking as you madgoat and that bit me right in the butt. I had secure fences, they never actively went after anything when I let them out what did I care if they came close to the fence which is also close to the house. Well she got braver and braver till I had a issue. So do I go all over my 800 acres looking for them to shoot? No, they can eat the ground squirrels and other rodents that cause me issues. But with all the room they have to hunt on my place as well as the surrounding ranches they don't need to be that close to me. Not only that but goats aside when they get brave enough to sit on the hill and watch my small children screaming and playing that's a big no no


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## Lstein

Jessica84 said:


> Not only that but goats aside when they get brave enough to sit on the hill and watch my small children screaming and playing that's a big no no


 That is definitely a game changer.


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## Honsby

Madgoat said:


> I have issues with your comment: "This is why people actively seek out and shoot the predators." Why would anyone want to kill an animal that hasn't done anything wrong? Just because they "might"?


Exactly. Because it's more likely to be an issue of 'when' than an issue of 'if'. Besides, it's in their nature to kill to survive. They're not doing anything 'wrong' when they kill goats. They can certainly be in the 'wrong' place at the 'wrong' time which is just before the trigger is pulled.

Just like I'm not doing anything wrong when I eat meat.

For the sake of discussion... It would be all right for them to kill someone else's goats as long as they don't kill your goats?

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I would definitely shoot the gator. I would also consider eating some of it or dragging it to where other gators could eat it... THEN change my pants. lol


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## kathy_

Read all this post and learned so much about protecting my goats and had a few laughs along the way. You all are great. Thanks


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## TDG-Farms

Its called conservation. At least in the wild. And its called preemptive planning on the farm. I know its going to be hard for a few people to grasp this. Hunters understand this more then most as we are out in the wild and see first hand. It is our responsibility to help maintain a balance. Man has disrupted the natural order of things beyond a live and let live option. But it might actually be more beneficial for the animals. Now a days there are far fewer large scale die offs of prey animals. Hunters help maintain a manageable and healthy number of prey animals. And a few of us take the responsibility of helping to maintain predator numbers as well. I mentioned the wild as it directly effects most farms. Most of you dont know it but there are hunters everywhere, helping to control predator numbers. I would bet there are some of you who are spared having to deal directly with predators because hunters in your area are unknowingly to you, keeping their numbers at a manageable level. On the farm, its our responsibility to protect our animals. It our legal right to shoot anything that is going after our livestock. And there are going to be situations where preemptive hunting and killing of predators is needed. Its legal because there is a need for it.


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## toth boer goats

We all want to protect our children, livestock, pets ect. So, if we feel a threat, we will do anything in our means to protect them, won't we? Well, that isn't the issue of our argument here.
Known predators getting too close to home, by any means, I will get out whatever it takes to get rid of the issue. If coyotes are lurking, they will eventually strike, especially seeing a meal. 
In packs or single, they will do damage and can do a lot of it. Even with LGD especially if they are in a pack. They love guts and will just solely kill baby goats or other animals, just to get that delicacy. It is a horrible and devastating thing to see. 
A friend of ours has a lot of goats and was in a location where, they relocated coyotes to, which was fatal for his babies, he had many killed all in one night for their guts alone left everything else. So a coyote in a trap wasn't too terrible to see for this breeder. Wouldn't you feel the same? 

It is a horrible way by trapping but, may be one way to stop them. Sometimes one may not have a gun at hand or catches them in the act, so we resort to the trap method. We all do agree, it isn't a pretty picture and we do not like seeing the results, but, we do get the issue taken care of. 
I am sorry some members are very upset by it, but we are at times forced to use this method.

So really guys, we all agree about he same thing. 

Now think about it, if we go to the trap constantly, aren't we scaring off the coyote by doing so, yes, so we have to wait to check on them at a later time and sometimes too we forget to go there as well.


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