# Best LGD breed?



## COgoatLover25

What's the best LGD breed?
Let me hear your opinion and why too!!
:dance:


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## SalteyLove

I don't have an LGD but if I did it would be a great Pyrenees! My reasoning for this is because based on what I have read - Great Pyrenees will welcome guests/strange people in to the pens/barn with you whereas some of the other breeds would have a hard time letting anybody but the "masters" in. I bet if they were well socialized then other breeds would be fine but I'm not sure. I hesitate on the great Pyrenees because of the matting fur!


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## rockytg

SalteyLove said:


> Great Pyrenees will welcome guests/strange people in to the pens/barn with you whereas some of the other breeds would have a hard time letting anybody but the "masters" in.


I do have Great Pyrenees, and while they do seem to be greeting people, they are also making sure that they are in between the goats and that new person.


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## AvyNatFarm

We have a great Pyrenees. 
Pros: Friendly to strangers
Gentle with human kids
Has never offered to intentionly hurt a goat
Doesn't eat as much as you'd think
Great coyote deterrent

Cons: Can be extremely hard headed 
Can Bark all night 
Friendly with strangers
Can get very big so require more space, etc

We did lots of research when choosing a breed and with our set up, the GP was the top choice, but there are nights I'd like something quieter.


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## AvyNatFarm

GP do have lots and lots of fur that requires lots of brushing if you want them to look nice.


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## nancy d

We have Anatolians.
One dog is a wimp & would probably hand you goats to carry off.
The other is fairly aggressive & has been known to nip ppl in the butt if they are petting his girls. No more humans in the goat pens.
Zero loss to predators.


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## ttaylor7

*Which lgd breed*

We had friends with Anatolians and Pyrs in the 80s and we just weren't sold on them -- one too people aggressive and the other too friendly to neighbor dogs and too heat stressed here in Texas. Our vet recommended we find an Akbash --"Oshkosh?" NO -- find a turkish dog that is white and not an Anatolian. We did - and have had Akbash Dogs since 1985 -- unfriendly to stray dogs. I've had Akbash catch intruding Pit bulls, hold them down on their backs by their throat, wait until they urinated and submitted and released them. If they didn't run away immediately or if they didn't submit, then we would have a fight.

In about 1987 a Turkish friend (he came to see the Akbash Dogs, declared them truly Turkish, and became a friend) brought us Kangal Dogs from the Sivas region in Turkey. Like Akbash, they are not stray dog friendly --- but once they grip something they have committed to doing more than teaching a lesson. They don't bark as much. Akbash Dogs posture -- they bark and will hit the fence and growl and "warn off" intruders. Kangal Dogs will often stand and watch until they decide the 4 legged intruder is a threat to be attacked -- or not.

Neither of these breeds are people aggressive in Turkey -- the dogs and the sheep all move back into the villages for the winter. The dogs cannot be uncontrollable, cannot bite people, cannot kill the neighbors' dogs. Granted some dogs are confined in the walled "garden" or yard (like you see in Mexico or Spain -- a walled area that surrounds the house or the front of the house and creates privacy). Occasionally you see a dog chained (very often a fighting dog rather than a "shepherd's dog.'

A dog can become people aggressive and (irresponsible) breeders can select for dogs that are less bite-inhibited (a trait we value and select for). So you see variation -- we have also had (and currently have) Karakachans here (imports from Bulgaria) and we see interesting differences -- the Kangal and Akbash Dogs watch the skies and will chase predatory black vultures. The furry, sturdy built Karakachans have been completely oblivious to vultures, hawks. They let them land on their fences -- they react aggressively/protectively when the intruder is 4 legged. As when they saw horses on their fences for the first time!!

Didn't mean to write so much -- find a breeder whose dogs you like and who is a person you trust -- someone who will help you throughout the life of the dog. this person should have a policy of taking any of their dogs back (not necessarily BUYing it back) if there is a life change that necessitates getting rid of the dog. (We wouldn't need rescue groups if people would get dogs from responsible folks and buyer and seller acted responsibly toward each other and the dog.)

Go and look at dogs -- leave your checkbook at home -- an lpd is an important addition to your farm. S/he will be with your stock for a decade -- take your time making your choice - but don't wait your livestock has suffered a brutal attack. That is the saddest scenerio.

txtaylor
www.patterandairygoats.com


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## GrubbyGoat

I really love my Komondor, they're a Hungarian breed (the white dog with the dreadlocks) they are amazing dogs. My husband and I decided we're going to start raising them we love them so so much. Long life spans for big dogs too. 

I know several folks that use the Anatolian/Pyrenees cross and are very happy with them.


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## SweetValley

*Best LGD Breed*

#1 choice - Kuvasz. We have a very large 3yr old male. He stands 36" at the shoulder and weighs 180. His helper is a yearling female Caucasian Ovcharka who weighs 125. They have very different approaches to guarding our 40 acre farm (cows, horses, goats). Apollo, the Kuvasz, is the "flock guardian," he will not leave the flock - mostly he protects me and the goats. Nikita, the Ovcharka, is "border patrol." She races around the farm literally patrolling the perimeter. Apollo lets her do most of the barking at night, but occasionally will sound off to back her up. Our farm is across the river from a wildlife preserve and we have mountain lions, bear, bobcats, and coyotes - NONE of these come near our livestock. Apollo loves his goats! He goes into the paddocks with me daily. He and the does respect each other and he is gentle with the kids. Nikita looks at the kids like they might be snacks, so I don't let her in with them. Neither dog lets me out of their sight when I am here alone. Especially Apollo. Both dogs were highly socialized from the time they were puppies. And while they seem friendly to human visitors, they place themselves between me and strangers, leaning on me. Also, although LGDs are supposed to be "free thinkers" and able to make decisions on their own, mine have been taught basic obedience (sit, stay, here, leave it, off). They are on a raw meat diet and sit quietly while I hand out their meat. I will not tolerate a dog that is a bully towards me for their food - that's dangerous. Speaking of which, no matter what breed you get you HAVE to be the alpha dog/pack leader or some human will get hurt. These are big potentially dangerous dogs and they require an educated owner. Please do a lot of research and talk to different breeders. Choose a breeder who will tell you the bad things about owning these kinds of dogs as well as the good things. And treat the dogs fairly and with love. Good luck in your search!


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm

I have an Anatolian Shepherd/Great Pyrenees mix.


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## motdaugrnds

You're getting some great information here...as usual. 

I looked for over a year until I found the LGD I wanted. I live on a small homestead (6 acres) and have large Nubian dairy goats and an assortment of fowl (including guineas) that all free-range together. The place is completely fenced, yet the fencing is only field fencing and there are places where a dog could get under (or jump over if so inclined). I have a mature intact Labrador so getting along with this lab was a must too. 

I wanted a dog that would be a "serious" guardian/protector and be relatively quiet at night. I wanted one that would protect me as well as the animals, let strangers on the place (if I do) and "think" well for itself as to how to fit in with MY rules.

I decided on a Bulgarian Karakachan, named her after her grandmother who had originated from Bulgarian and wrote an eBook about her first few months of training. (Had brought her home as soon as she was weaned and it was quite a challenging learning how to both train as well as encourage this LGD to be the LGD her genetic history gave her the propensities to be.) You can read her story on Amazon Kindle books. "Valentina, A Bulgarian Legend".

She is now 10 months old and is in her adolescents phase of development. She is still quite a challenge; yet she is loving and accepts me as the alpha. She keeps chickens away from the one goat who eats slowly so that goat can finish her food without torment from the fowl; and she does so without chasing the fowl. She patrols the parameter fencing frequently in all kinds of weather yet not once has she tried to go under or over that fence. She has "tolerated" strangers on the place and she has charged aggressively toward some rather large predator at the back fence that I never saw clearly. I'm quite pleased with this Karakachan.


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## fishin816

Definetly the Great Pyrenees! Best dogs for guarding your animals and the family!


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## SixxGoats

There are many awesome breeds of LGD's out there. I don't believe any one breed is "the best" breed. Rather, there is a best breed for your individual situation. Do you have a huge amount of acreage to cover and a large predator issue? Then yeah Kangal's, Akbash and Anatolian's are awesome! Just remember those are a higher strung, hotter tempered dog. If you have a smaller area you may want to go with the Pyr's, Maremmas, or Spanish Mastiffs. There are also some awesome cross bred dogs on the market, just make sure both parents are LGD's NOT herding dogs. Personally I have a mix of cross breds who run my perimeter, and two pure breds who hang out closer to the stock and it works out well for me. The most important thing is to decide what you need and then research the various breeds to see what fits your situation.


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## ttaylor7

*Best LPD breed*



SixxGoats said:


> There are many awesome breeds of LGD's out there. I don't believe any one breed is "the best" breed. Rather, there is a best breed for your individual situation. Do you have a huge amount of acreage to cover and a large predator issue? Then yeah Kangal's, Akbash and Anatolian's are awesome! Just remember those are a higher strung, hotter tempered dog. If you have a smaller area you may want to go with the Pyr's, Maremmas, or Spanish Mastiffs. There are also some awesome cross bred dogs on the market, just make sure both parents are LGD's NOT herding dogs. Personally I have a mix of cross breds who run my perimeter, and two pure breds who hang out closer to the stock and it works out well for me. The most important thing is to decide what you need and then research the various breeds to see what fits your situation.


I would hardly call the purebred Akbash and Kangal dogs "high strung." But then I am not sure what Sixxgoats meant by that phrase. Those two Turkish breeds tend to be stray dog aggressive -- and in the 30+ years we have had both we have never had any of our dogs of either breed bite a human. They are markedly quiet nd watchful with their stock as all good lpds need to be. The Akbash Dogs, like many of the other white breeds, tend to posture -- bark, threaten -- when an intruder approaches. The best defense is a good offense?? We find that different from our purebred Kangal Dogs.

As for the land and fencing myths, currently we have an adult Kangal male (intact) with two younger pups in training in about 2 acres behind regular sheep field fencing (4 x6 wire, 42 inches tall -- nothing special). We also have an Akbash Dog female with sheep in less than an acre behind the same kind of fencing. Although the dogs are in small pastures, they are content. BUT they have been used to respecting fences and gates since they were puppies. It is just what they learn when they live here.

These breeds do tend to be more "active" in that they patrol and move with the flock more than some of the heavier breeds. Larger heavier dogs of a breed are slower and "lazier" than lighter weight dogs -- and the same is true of breeds. Many of the mastiff type breeds also tend to be straighter in the hocks which reduces their stride and ability to handle rough ground -- owners of these dogs have to be on the watch for stifle (cruciate ligament) injuries.

One problem folks with much land have is that the heavier built dogs "shade up" in the heat of the day and will often leave the sheep or goats to fend for themselves. That has resulted in sheep and goat raisers like those in west Texas who are running animals on larger areas selecting breeds like the Akbash or Maremma, which are lighter built but still quite powerful and predator aggressive, over breeds like the Pyr, which suffers more in the heat.

However, the writer of the above comment is correct in saying that there is no one "best breed." In fact, it often comes down to the best individual that is available at a given time. We see our breeds being very versatile and we have learned from our owners that dogs managed with a degree of "dog sense" are able to adjust to a variety of situations and perform very well. However, certain conformation traits and coat do figure into behavior/abilities and management needs of dogs.

Recently we have been "vetting" imported dogs that are going into the USDA project (see http://blogs.usda.gov/2013/08/08/usda-serving-montana-ranchers-farmers/ -- that is one of our Kangal Dogs with his sheep man). We had 9 Karakachans here from Bulgaria, broken into groups of three with sheep in separate pastures. There were some interesting differences between those 9 Karakachans and the Akbash and Kangal Dogs we are used to working with. Whether our observations could be extrapolated to cover ALL Karakachans or not remains to be seen. Those dogs have now been put with their flocks in Idaho and Montana (I believe that was there end destinations).

There are breed differences -- we stress the importance of getting your first dog especially from someone who offers support and advice -- because crossbreds often come from situations where the dogs "breed themselves" in pasture, it is virtually impossible to be certain of parentage. Some male dogs can be quite magnanimous about sharing females; some herding and hunting breeds (and just plain mongrels) can be very resourceful in accessing a mate even when it means outsmarting her vigilant male protector. Color and even conformation rarely is a dead giveaway as to what breeds might make up a crossbreed.

There are some folks who do intentionally and carefully crossbreed because they find their current dog is lacking some trait they hope to acquire in crossbred pups, such as heat tolerance or less inclination to wander. Of course, the pups will still learn behavior from their mothers and they are "hybrids" like some of today's cars -- part one breed and part another. It seems illogical to believe the ideal can be achieved by breeding something that lacks desired traits -- unless of course you are raising animals for slaughter, where terminal sires work very well.

Many folks also find that breeding their own crossbreds may involve parents that were not pricey but that producing those pups is more expensive than simply buying what they want to begin with -- a good breeder will not sell you the wrong breed or the wrong dog. But a good breeder goes to a lot of expense to provide and even guarantee healthy, purebred pups and then a lifetime of support and advice -- you will pay for those benefits.

A livestock protection dog can live and be with its flock to the age of 8, 10, and even 12. We know several Akbash Dogs that were still with goats up to the age of 14, quite an achievement but quite unusual! We have Kangal Dogs at 12 with their stock (chickens and sheep). A decade of protection is worth a lot!! The peace of mind is a great benefit to say nothing of the financial benefit of raising a full kid or lamb crop from your livestock.

Txtaylor
www.patterandairygoats.com


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## COgoatLover25

Wow! That's a lot of info, funny thing too because I was leaning more towards the Akbash as we have a fair amount of property.


Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


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## DMSMBoers

I chose an Akbash because they are more human an stay dog aggressive. My Akbash will attack an kill any dog that does not belong. She will let a strange human know that its in their best interest not to get in HER pen. She is extremely alert day an night. You will always find her with the stock. She doesn't test fences an has no desire to roam. I just added another Akbash pup so she can have back up b/c we have a lot of coyotes an stray dogs. She is wonderful with my 2 legged kids. 

All in all your situation should determine what breed. Each dog in each breed will be different. The 2 I have are like night an day, not sure hes gonna being staying if he doesn't change. I did a lot of research before deciding on a breed an was on a waiting list for almost a year for the first pup an 2 years for the second pup. Getting a good breeder is a must. Ive had my first Akbash for almost 2 years an can still contact the breeder for any reason an hes always got an answer for me. Not sure if this helped.


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## COgoatLover25

If you don't mind telling me, what breeder did you get your Akbash?


Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


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## goatnoat

I have been researching short haired LGD breeds, my husband and I also are considering Kangals and Akbash and Cao de Gado Transmontanos, and Spanish Mastiffs, and have written and called several breeders now. We are still trying to decide but taking our time. One thing I am seeing is a lot of differences of opinion on breeds out there, and I am not liking some of the forum fights I see over breeders and dogs. I was hoping this forum would be different, and I guess time will tell on that one.

We just talked to a reputable Kangal breeder in MT who told me his dogs go out and after predators and are not close guarding like Spanish Mastiffs and Maremmas both of which he has had or has. His dogs would not be happy on two acres, and would probably be stir crazy, he told us. His dogs are aggressive and powerful and can easily clear tall fencing. His kangals do not sound like they come from the same lines as the poster above.

He has a litter of pups now half Kangal and half Pyrenean Mastiffs also a litter of purebred Kangals too. They are not raised in kennels, he intimated to us that some people breeding Kangals in the US were raising them in kennels with no livestock but were being advertised as LGD's. I guess buyer beware is the best advice. He also spoke highly of the Spanish Mastiff and Pyrenean Mastiffs, and has them from another breeder and imported from Europe.

His dogs are raised on over 100 acres with stock.

This is his website www.lgdmontana.com


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## fishin816

goatnoat said:


> I have been researching short haired LGD breeds, my husband and I also are considering Kangals and Akbash and Cao de Gado Transmontanos, and Spanish Mastiffs, and have written and called several breeders now. We are still trying to decide but taking our time. One thing I am seeing is a lot of differences of opinion on breeds out there, and I am not liking some of the forum fights I see over breeders and dogs. I was hoping this forum would be different, and I guess time will tell on that one.
> 
> We just talked to a reputable Kangal breeder in MT who told me his dogs go out and after predators and are not close guarding like Spanish Mastiffs and Maremmas both of which he has had or has. His dogs would not be happy on two acres, and would probably be stir crazy, he told us. His dogs are aggressive and powerful and can easily clear tall fencing. His kangals do not sound like they come from the same lines as the poster above.
> 
> He has a litter of pups now half Kangal and half Pyrenean Mastiffs also a litter of purebred Kangals too. They are not raised in kennels, he intimated to us that some people breeding Kangals in the US were raising them in kennels with no livestock but were being advertised as LGD's. I guess buyer beware is the best advice. He also spoke highly of the Spanish Mastiff and Pyrenean Mastiffs, and has them from another breeder and imported from Europe.
> 
> His dogs are raised on over 100 acres with stock.
> 
> This is his website www.lgdmontana.com


Are you anywhere near Wisconson? I know a really good Spanish Mastiff breeder there. Their dogs are with goats and poultry full time.

www.fallcreekfarm.net

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## SixxGoats

Oh I'd forgotten about the requisite forum misunderstandings:shock: Not bashing on anyone's dogs and I'm not going to get into numerous "War and Peace" length discussions on this because I don't have a breed to sell, and I'm sure not going to get into structural discussions, because every single LGD breed is capable of being straight stifled, and or having joint issues based on the fact that they are very large dogs. I would hope the buyer would educate themselves on these things through a non biased source before they went to look at pups. Also, I am fairly new to ranching although my husband is not. I own both light and heavier dogs, and don't consider any of them lazy as they all work, however I would say the bigger dogs are much calmer and laid back, they don't feel the need to run out to the fence line every time a rabbit jumps out of its hole. In contrast, my cross bred, more high strung girls might, but again, I'm not marketing a product here, so I like them all  I also have friends with various breeds, and have done enough research that I wouldn't bash any breed because they all have their place in guarding livestock. I would, however beware of any breeder who insists that their particular breed is the answer for every situation, and feels the need to undermine other breeds, because that is patently dishonest. Also while I may be new, I've done enough research to know the purpose of an LGD is NOT to go out and kill all your neighbors dogs...the primary job is to deter predators, if your dog is running off after an intruder it is not there guarding, which is why I suggested a mix of breeds. Perimeter dogs do just that....guard your perimeter, and a heavier breed will do the cleanup for anything large enough to get past your lighter, faster, and higher strung (meaning more edgy, and tense) dogs. Anyone who has any knowledge whatsoever about the behavior of a pack predator such as a coyote or wolf knows this. There are many, cases of one or two coyotes, wolves or even dogs, who will lure those high strung perimeter dogs away, while the rest of the pack comes in and decimates your stock. Also never underestimate the power of good fencing! While I understand it won't work with a large ranch, a good fence is invaluable for a smaller farm or ranch, and there are a LOT of those popping up! I am very well aware of the Hutterite/USDA project, also noticed there was some conflict on that site as well? So perhaps it's just the source. However since we are bragging on our dogs, here's a link for the December 2013 issue of Goat Rancher magazine in which my two 1/2 Spanish Mastiff and 1/4 each Anatolian and Maremma girls were featured inside the cover page, and in an article regarding running siblings together:

http://www.mlppubsonline.com/publication/?i=184768

Not ALL cross bred dogs are bred out in the pasture, some are bred quite deliberately, and very well started at an early age...as were mine.. however again, one would want to be careful as to who the breeder is, as like T says, it does happen. Also there are some new "breeds" showing up that are, as far as I can tell not actual breeds but cross breds being marketed as a breed....but any time something starts to become a trend and there is money to be made people will become less than honest. I guess my best advice is do your homework on the breeds, and there are many other breeds than what have been presented in this thread, get references on the breeder, see if they offer support after buying the puppy, and if it's a breed you've never heard of before....make sure it's an actual breed.


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## goatnoat

Hi fishin816 no I am not. I am actually looking at breeders in midwest and further West, who seem to have top working lines and track records of successful breedings. 

One thing my husband and I have realized is that we need to shop the breeders not the breeds. I am narrowing down my choices based on breeders who are honest, who show photos of both parents on their website, who HAVE websites for starters, who have references, who if applicable have hips rated by OFA or the Penn Hip group, who give guarantees, who raise healthy puppies and worm them and give all shots. Who raise with livestock, and handle them. Who have dogs out there working and can prove it, not just blather on a forum. 

That eliminates a whole bunch of people, really really fast. 

Mods I edited this post.


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## fishin816

goatnoat said:


> Hi fishin816 no I am not. I am actually looking at breeders in midwest and further West, who seem to have top working lines and track records of successful breedings.
> 
> One thing my husband and I have realized is that we need to shop the breeders not the breeds. I am narrowing down my choices based on breeders who are honest, who show photos of both parents on their website, who HAVE websites for starters, who have references, who if applicable have hips rated by OFA or the Penn Hip group, who give guarantees, who raise healthy puppies and worm them and give all shots. Who raise with livestock, and handle them. Who have dogs out there working and can prove it, not just blather on a forum.
> 
> That eliminates a whole bunch of people, really really fast.
> 
> I am shocked at the number of breeders showcasing litters all over the place on the Internet, who talk about a sire on FB pages and websites, but you never see the photos or description of the father of the litter. In one breed, I have now run across this twice. Photos of mom and pups but nothing about dad. I also ran into one very forthcoming breeder who admits it could be a two dad litter - no make that two breeders I have talked to in the west that have admitted to this. I like that, I appreciate their being truthful. In both cases both sires are LGD's. At least they are not covering it up.
> 
> I'm not going to name names but fishin the link you referenced, there seems to be a 'fatherless litter' of pups for sale right now on that site, that are supposedly purebred, but no mention of the sire as mentioned on the other litters the same breeder has advertised. And&#8230;OK..&#8230;that scares the heck out of me.


I know the person from goat shows..... I dont think there is any reason to be scared because of that...... Let me look around the website to see if Ican find the sire

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## fishin816

I am pretty sure the sire is Ivan. 


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## fishin816

Ivan is their only male.... 


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## fishin816

Yes, Ivan is the sire. She lists it on the site. Look under "H litter" it shows who is the mom and dad of who. 


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## KW Farms

If you guys could take this conversation to PM would be great. Lets try and keep this on topic to the OP. Thank you.



> What's the best LGD breed?
> Let me hear your opinion and why too!!


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## fishin816

KW Farms said:


> If you guys could take this conversation to PM would be great. Lets try and keep this on topic to the OP. Thank you.


Whose you guys?

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## KW Farms

fishin816 said:


> Whose you guys?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


I can see the conversation starting to drift, discussing one particular breeder. If you wish to continue the conversation on that breeder, please take that to PM as not to derail the thread.  Thank you.


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## fishin816

KW Farms said:


> I can see the conversation starting to drift, discussing one particular breeder. If you wish to continue the conversation on that breeder, please take that to PM as not to derail the thread.  Thank you.


Oh ok, we will stop it here then. 

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## Jake Levi

*Best LGDs*

FWIW, I didnt read it as drifting but clarifying a point, and removing criticism of a LGD breeder.

For myself, I have limited breed experience with LGDs, but its been intensive.

I trained herding and LGDs in Israel, in very hilly Samaria, wild hogs, 'rustlers', and stray dogs take a price on sheep flocks there continually.
At the time we had only Ovcharkas, Caucasian and Central Asian, and some GPs. The Ovcharkas were great in the field, too rough on neighbors dogs in the community, they had to be penned with the flocks at night. The GP were pretty good alarm dogs, not aggressive enough towards strangers moving into the flock.

About ten years ago I went with two friends to Anatolia to look at and select some dogs to bring back. We spent almost four days driving around villages and looking at dogs. They were of varying appearance but all were noticeably Anatolian. One wouldnot let us near him and his family and animals in the vollage, even with the owner there. The others took the owners actions and body language as cues and acted accordingly, not slobbering over us but a noticeable acceptable tail wag.

It was a great four days. Bottom line I am very biased towards Anatolians, and the few Akbash I have been around. But, all were raised with livestock, I am currently looking for an Anatolian pup. My first choice, Akbash close 2nd. It will have an English Shepherd pup to work with , the ES is a basic herding dog, not like a BC at all, but sees what is needed and does it.

I have never been around Kangals so cant speak to them, have read good things about. The area I will be in has bears, wolves, coyotes and mtn lions. So I want a serious LGD pup.


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