# Dairy kid conformation - with pictures!



## Feira426

I’m not sure how well this will work, but I figure it’s worth a try! Lately I’ve been trying to learn about desirable and undesirable conformation traits to look for in kids, to help in deciding who to buy or who to retain. And I’ve noticed a lot of other people looking for advice in this area, too. I’ve found some good information, and even one very nice set of guidelines with photos of adult goats demonstrating both desirable and undesirable traits, which I found very helpful. But I want more!

I was thinking maybe it would be helpful to start a thread for sharing photos of kids we’re purchasing/retaining and kids we decide to pass on, and point out the conformational traits that most influenced those decisions. Thinking this would be extremely helpful for people like me who want to make good choices but are struggling to see what those of you with more experience can pick out more easily.

And maybe those of us with less experience can post our pictures too, along with our thoughts, and get some helpful advice?


----------



## Feira426

I’ll start. I’m already set on keeping this doeling because she’s an absolute sweetheart and her mama is my favorite goat. My goats are pets as well as production animals, so they don’t have to have absolutely stunning conformation in order for me to justify keeping them. But I still want to be aware of her pros and cons so that I can make a good decision on a buck for her when she’s ready for breeding. 

She’s four days old in these pictures. If I remember I’ll come back with updated pictures in a few weeks and we can see how she’s growing - I think that would be fun! I’d love for anyone else interested to do that too. I heard somewhere that it’s good to evaluate kids at three days, then at three weeks, and again at three months to get a decent idea of who’s the better kid.

I don’t have another doeling her age to compare her to, but I guess I can compare her pictures to other goats’ pictures later on.

Anyway, meet Katara.














































What I see, with my very limited experience:

Front legs are nice and straight, and are directly below her withers.
Decent body depth - the front of her belly is slightly lower than her elbows (I think even deeper is better though).
Hind legs toe out a bit. 
She’s fairly narrow (undesirable - working on that in my herd).
Not the widest stance/escutcheon, but better than her mother’s (thanks to our buck!).
A little downhill (working on that in my herd).
To me her rump length looks decent and her hind legs have a nice curve to them - the buck is fairly posty in the hind legs, so I’m quite happy with how she turned out there (thanks, mama!).
Face: perfect cuteness! 😆
Topline isn’t the greatest, but is better than her mom’s.
Her brisket doesn’t look too good - I’ll probably look for a buck with a better brisket.
Any thoughts? Corrections?


----------



## Feira426

@MellonFriend, @GoofyGoat, @Morning Star Farm, @Jubillee 

I’ve never tried tagging anyone before, so not sure I did that right, heh... Guess we’ll see.


----------



## Feira426

It worked! Yay for learning how to do new things on the forum, haha! Also I thought of a few more members who might be interested:

@Kbarson, @Calistar, @goathiker, @Damfino


----------



## MellonFriend

I think your assessments sound very good to me. I'm totally still learning too, so I don't have anything concrete to add other than she is just freaking adorable. 😋 She is very young so her body is going to do a lot of changing as she grows.

I'd share pictures of my kids, but I'm not sure it would help since mine are in between dairy and meat.


----------



## Morning Star Farm

Feira426 said:


> Front legs are nice and straight, and are directly below her withers.
> Decent body depth - the front of her belly is slightly lower than her elbows (I think even deeper is better though).
> Hind legs toe out a bit.
> She’s fairly narrow (undesirable - working on that in my herd).
> Not the widest stance/escutcheon, but better than her mother’s (thanks to our buck!).
> A little downhill (working on that in my herd).
> To me her rump length looks decent and her hind legs have a nice curve to them - the buck is fairly posty in the hind legs, so I’m quite happy with how she turned out there (thanks, mama!).
> Face: perfect cuteness! 😆
> Topline isn’t the greatest, but is better than her mom’s.
> Her brisket doesn’t look too good - I’ll probably look for a buck with a better brisket.
> Any thoughts? Corrections?


That is correct. At that age they are still unfolding, but the main thing I see that she lacks is length and dairyness. She does need a better brisket and more rear leg angulation as well as more levelness over that topline, but she is a nice little doe and will be fun to watch mature.


----------



## Feira426

MellonFriend said:


> I think your assessments sound very good to me. I'm totally still learning too, so I don't have anything concrete to add other than she is just freaking adorable. 😋 She is very young so her body is going to do a lot of changing as she grows.
> 
> I'd share pictures of my kids, but I'm not sure it would help since mine are in between dairy and meat.


You should totally share yours! I think even pure Nubians are considered dual-purpose by a lot of people, and they’re also one of the main dairy breeds (at least in my area), so...

Besides, a lot of the conformation stuff seems to be the same for meat and dairy goats. There are some differences for sure, but the really important stuff is all the same, judging from what I’ve learned so far.


----------



## MellonFriend

Okay, I'll try to get some good shots tomorrow. 😊


----------



## MellonFriend

Morning Star Farm said:


> I see that she lacks is length and dairyness.


I'm surprised you say she lacks dairyness. What is it that you are (or aren't) seeing?


----------



## Morning Star Farm

MellonFriend said:


> I'm surprised you say she lacks dairyness. What is it that you are (or aren't) seeing?


I'm not seeing length, she's a square. She's very leggy which is not a bad thing, but she doesn't have the length to go with it. That's why I said she's still unfolding, she could get longer as she grows. I'll PM you some pictures.


----------



## MellonFriend

Here is the first of my two kinder doelings.
First is my darling, Murphy. I crazy love her. I keep thinking that I can't believe she's all mine.😆 I guess it's because I've never bred and kept anything before. I think she might be my dream goat for color at least.

I couldn't get very good pictures of her since she would not stop moving and try to eat me.






























I think she has very strong pasterns
Definitely could use some more length
Good brisket (I would expect her to improve even more on that front because her dam and sire both have nice brisket extension
Needs a better topline. She dips in the chine. 
Rump's a bit steep too. This is a flaw of many kinders.
I'm happy with the width she has. I think it could be better, but it's an improvement on her dam
I really like her escutcheon. It's high and not tear drop shaped. I think it's her best quality. Besides her color of course.😙 
Rear leg angulation needs improvement too. Not surprising as her sire is real posty.

I know not many people on here have experience with kinders, but feel free to correct me on any of my opinions! Don't be afraid of hurting my feelings!


----------



## MellonFriend

Here's Adaline. I think she actually the better of the two for conformation. Of course she just _had _to cooperate better for pictures than Murphy did.😋
















I told her to strike a pose, she went for gazing into the distance.🤭








Weaker pasterns than Murph
Longer than Murph
Better topline, but still not perfect
Real good width, but not as high an escutcheon as Murphy has
Rump angle is steep
I also don't like how her shoulders kinda stick out in the front. Her dam has that too.
Brisket pretty good, but could be better
She's meatier than Murphy, but she doesn't have any competition for milk so that could be a factor


----------



## Feira426

They’re both getting so big! And looking absolutely gorgeous! I think Murphy would be my pick too, although I can’t really put my finger on why. Her escutcheon looks really nice to me also, and she kind of looks more milky to me, whereas Adaline looks a bit more meaty, if that makes sense. But I could be wrong there.

Can you elaborate on what you meant about the shoulders sticking out in the front on Adaline? I couldn’t see it, but maybe I’m just missing it.


----------



## Feira426

P.S. That first picture of Murphy is SO cute!


----------



## MellonFriend

Feira426 said:


> They’re both getting so big! And looking absolutely gorgeous! I think Murphy would be my pick too, although I can’t really put my finger on why. Her escutcheon looks really nice to me also, and she kind of looks more milky to me, whereas Adaline looks a bit more meaty, if that makes sense. But I could be wrong there.
> 
> Can you elaborate on what you meant about the shoulders sticking out in the front on Adaline? I couldn’t see it, but maybe I’m just missing it.


They _are _getting so big. I can't believe how fast is goes. 

The shoulder thing doesn't really show up on the pictures very well, but her shoulder blades kind of jut out in the front. It's more noticeable on her dam, maybe I can get a picture...

Adaline being more meaty is actually a plus for kinders. They should be well muscled .


----------



## MellonFriend

Here's what I'm talking about, this is Yuma actually. It was most noticeable on him. See how his shoulder blade sticks out? This would be characterized as not "tight shoulders" . I don't believe its a major flaw. It's not like tight shoulders make more milk. 😉









Accentuated because of itching:


----------



## Feira426

Oh! Yeah, I can see it there for sure. Nice of you to add the circle for clarity.

I don’t think I’ve ever noticed shoulders like that before, so I’m glad you brought it up!

Yuma is a cutie!


----------



## Kaitlyn

Love this idea! I have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever on good confirmation, but just wanted to say that all your kids look adorable.


----------



## Feira426

Kaitlyn said:


> Love this idea! I have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever on good confirmation, but just wanted to say that all your kids look adorable.


Thank you!


----------



## Feira426

I’ve been trying to get good pictures of Mika’s twins - got some okay ones this evening. Not the best, but good enough I guess.

This is Yoshi. We were going to call her Ame but it wasn’t really sticking, and she puts everything in her mouth, so Yoshi seemed perfect!




























I really like the fact that Yoshi is only VERY slightly downhill. Almost level. Downhill-ness is apparently a very common trait in Mini Nubians, and my MN does have all been fairly downhill up until now, so I’m hoping she will be a step up (haha) for our herd in that department.

I also really like her head and ears. I think she has really good “breed characteristic,” and her head seems to be just the right size for her body - I think she just has an overall very nice look. Her front legs seem well positioned, right where they should ideally be. She looks like she’ll have a pretty good brisket. She’s somewhat narrow, like all my MNs, but I think she’ll be wider than her dam, so I’m pleased with that improvement. Her rump isn’t terribly steep (another improvement I’m pleased with) and her hind legs have what looks to me to be a fairly good curve to them.

She also seems to be decently long. I am planning on retaining her. She was a bit timid when she was tiny, but has become very friendly and fun as she’s gotten older.



And this is Yasashi. It means friendly. ☺
She’s beautiful too and I love her, especially her lovely coloring! For a while I thought I would choose her over her sister, but my current plan is to sell Yasashi.




























In these pictures it looks like Yoshi has the wider stance, but actually they’re about the same. I just got lucky with Yoshi’s photo - she was standing a little more spread out than usual.

Honestly I think Yasashi might be a tad wider at the hips, which would be nice, but if she is, it isn’t by much, and I personally think Yoshi is superior in more areas, although that’s just my current opinion.

Yasashi has a pretty short rump compared to her sister. Her front legs are good, and her brisket looks good - they’re about the same in that regard, I believe. But Yasashi is pretty downhill, and has posty hind legs. Her head also looks kind of small for her body and neck, though maybe she’ll grow out of that. And while she has a beautiful face and bright, lively eyes, she lacks the Nubian breed characteristics that her sister has.

So for now at least, Yoshi is my preference between the two. (Even though I REALLY love the flashy coloring on Yasashi!!!)

What do you guys think? Any corrections to my assessments? Additions? I’m eager to keep learning!


----------



## MellonFriend

I agree with your assessments. I think they are both very nice. It would be tough to decide between them, but I think I would give the edge to Yoshi too.


----------



## Feira426

Thanks for your two cents! That makes me feel a lot better about my decision. ☺


----------



## Feira426

Mika’s kids turned three months old the other day, so I spent the afternoon out in the pasture getting some updated pictures.

Yoshi:






































Yasashi:


----------



## Feira426

Oops. Looks like I accidentally attached an extra picture of Yoshi’s cute face. Idk how to undo that.


----------



## GoofyGoat

I’m not good at judging conformation really other than I know what I like. Sorry to be of no help. 🤷‍♀️ 
Theres a lot of folks who show that can give you better advice than I ever could.


----------



## MellonFriend

I'm liking how Yoshi's topline is developing. I think it's looking more level than it used to. I also think she is looking reasonably long and deep. I can't believe how fast they grow. 

They both have such beautiful faces. 😙


----------



## EJskeleton

I like the way Yasashi is a bit wider. Maybe it's just the angle, but either way, they are both very beautiful.


----------



## Feira426

GoofyGoat said:


> I’m not good at judging conformation really other than I know what I like. Sorry to be of no help. 🤷‍♀️
> Theres a lot of folks who show that can give you better advice than I ever could.


That’s okay! GG, you should add some pictures here of your kids - you have a couple you’re keeping from this year’s kidding, right? Maybe you could drop some photos and tell us why you picked the ones you did?


----------



## Feira426

MellonFriend said:


> I'm liking how Yoshi's topline is developing. I think it's looking more level than it used to. I also think she is looking reasonably long and deep. I can't believe how fast they grow.
> 
> They both have such beautiful faces. 😙


Thank you! I’m really a sucker for a cute face - and yeah, I also think she looks fairly long and deep. She’s probably the most “dairy” looking of all the kids this year, I think. Super excited to see how she turns out, and what kind of udder she’ll have!


----------



## Feira426

EJskeleton said:


> I like the way Yasashi is a bit wider. Maybe it's just the angle, but either way, they are both very beautiful.


I do think Yasashi is just a tad wider in the rear. I wish I could keep them both! Lol


----------



## EJskeleton

Feira426 said:


> I do think Yasashi is just a tad wider in the rear. I wish I could keep them both! Lol


They are adorable! If I were you I would totally keep them, 😂 although my parents would probably kill me.


----------



## Feira426

Lol!


----------



## GoofyGoat

Feira426 said:


> That’s okay! GG, you should add some pictures here of your kids - you have a couple you’re keeping from this year’s kidding, right? Maybe you could drop some photos and tell us why you picked the ones you did?


Actually, I sold them all this year however after Queenie broke her leg, I had to return the deposit because it was close to the growth plate and I don’t know if it’ll ever heal right yet...3 more weeks till I know 🥴. Then I’ll decide.overall, I look for dairyness and a good Overall balance, straight level backs, width and depth and generally their lineage of being of good temperament and production.


----------



## Feira426

Oh, poor thing! Goodness. How is she doing? 

I know you’ve had to do some downsizing recently, so I suppose it makes sense not to keep any new kids. I thought for sure you had at least one - maybe I’m thinking of that adorable little doeling you adopted. Ugh, my silly brain can’t remember her name. Poppy maybe?


----------



## GoofyGoat

Yes, I still have PopPop aka Poppy 🤫
I’ll get a new picture of her up soon. My grandkids are coming so I’m trying to kid proof the house ( they get into stuff worse than the goats 🥴) 😆


----------



## Feira426

She’s such a cutie!!!

Aw, your grandkids are coming? That’s lovely! But yes, I think human kids are even more mischievous than goat kids, haha!


----------



## Feira426

Oh my goodness. The time seems to pass so quickly! Katara is three months old already! 

I got some nice three-month pictures of her to share with you all. Gosh, look at how much she’s grown. I’m sharing a couple of bonus pics of her twin brother Sokka too, just for fun!



























Look at that adorable face!! Aw.









Such a cute goober. I really love her little ear fuzzies - they look like feathers! I’ve never had a goat with such fuzzy ears before!

And here’s her handsome brother! He’s super lanky but not as awkward looking as he was when he was younger. I love his markings!


----------



## MellonFriend

Oh their brother is so handsome! I love the black edging his ears! 😍 They grow up so fast... 😭🤭


----------



## Feira426

I know!! I wish they would stay tiny longer, haha. I had Katara on my lap watching Doctor Strange with me the other day. She’s HEAVY now! 🤣


----------



## MellonFriend

Oh that's so funny, Doctor Strange is my youngers sister's favorite movie!😆 We are huge superhero fans.


----------



## Jubillee

I like how she is turning out! She's def improved over her dam!


----------

