# Guard Dog?



## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

Since the attack on our small herd a few weeks ago we are considering a guard dog. Have any of you had a particular book, article... that you found helpful in integrating a dog (puppy) into a herd? As my goats still seem cautious even with our own two lab mixes since the neighbor dogs attacked. Getting better with every walk we take.

CO. Dawn


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

the problem I see with LGD's is they need lots of acreage.
They are travelers. 

tennesseemeatgoats.com has some info on them and introductions.
in her article section.


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

I didn't hear about a dog attack on your goats. Very sorry! Where were your two lab-mix dogs at the time?

I don't know about your set up, how your goats are housed, fenced, etc, or anything about your existing dogs, but here is my 2 cents worth:

I think dogs are the number 1 threat to goats, chickens, etc. If you let your animals "free range", they will eventually be attacked, unless you live in a very special place (which I never have). Maybe a LGD or two would solve that problem, but I don't want the expense and liability of that. I keep my goats in a dog and coyote proof pen and barn all the time unless I am with them. Then I take them out for almost daily outings where they can browse on wild stuff. I never let them out except when I am with them. My dog hangs around the place and keeps and eye on things. Any other animals that come around get barked at. If I hear Jessie barking I look to see what's going on. If it's a serious threat I get my shotgun and go take care of it. But since my goats and chickens are well protected the only things I really have to worry about are mountain lions and bears (which haven't been a problem so far).

I don't want a big dangerous dog around. I just want a watchdog that will let me know if there's a problem.


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

I am reluctant to bring in another dog. However we moved here almost 3 years ago and the 2 lab mix dogs were basickly house dogs until then. At this time we have 35 acres. Our land is up against Pike National Forest. The dogs are out daily about 50% of the time with a lot of coaxing. They also are included in our daily walks with the goats. We to find that all of the natural brouse they can get is important as well as the exercise for me and the goats. The shelter for the goats is a portable( Heavy)shelter with a door that we had closed nightly until this past summer when we noticed the goats preffering to sleep outdoors. It was our fault entirely for getting out of the habit of shutting them in at night. The morning of the dog attack the sun was barely up when we heard the goats hooves on our deck. The dogs had jumped the fence (5ft) and the mama goats jumped it themselves and ran to the house. We are so grateful for that. By the time we got out side to the pen ( about a 1/4 acre) the dogs had killed my wether.Our dogs were inside and never barked... I guess that is why the guard dog sounds like a good idea to me is because i can't seem to get these dogs to stay outside without barking and wineing to come indoors at their leisure.The barn is slated to be built this spring. Barn raisin style  I do not want my dogs to ever become a nuisance to anyone or their livestock like the neighbors 3 dogs were. Thanks for any direction or redirection on this it is most appreciated.


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## Perry (May 8, 2009)

We have an LGD, a Maremma, with our packgoats. Heâ€™s worked out fineâ€¦lives with the goats 24-7.

One LGD book is â€œLivestock Protection Dogsâ€ by Dawydiak & Sims


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## Todd (Jul 16, 2009)

We have two Akbash which we purchased from Orysia Dawydiak and they are wonderful dogs. They are not the ferocious guard dogs that many people worry about. Ours have an amazing ability to sense good folk from bad and have protected our animals and human kids alike. They are very friendly dogs to our friends and family, but have met the challenge the few times we have had suspicious people show up at the farm. They also protect our cats and goats from the bobcats, cougars and coyotes that occasionally pass by. 

LGD's tend to be, in our experience with 2 Akbash and 1 Great Pyr, very different than a typical dog: independent thinkers, don't need your approval or constant affection, come when called when THEY feel like it and think that doing tricks on command is laughable. Oh, and you should also live in an area where a nuisance barker won't make the neighbors mad. We lock ours in the barn at night to mitigate this but during the day they still do a fair amount of barking when they sense a threat in the woods.


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

Can you tell me a little bit about how you integrated all 3 of your dogs? Did you get them at the same time... I spoke with the owner of Premier 1 fencing, which is where we are considering getting the pup and she suggested having as little interaction as possible between the pup and my 2 existing dogs. In order for the pup to bond with us human folk and the goats first. Any thoughts? I did check out the web site for nite- guard. Has anyone had any first hand experience with this method of protection?


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## Todd (Jul 16, 2009)

> Can you tell me a little bit about how you integrated all 3 of your dogs?


The Great Pyr had passed away by the time we got the Akbash, so now we have one male and one female Akbash. We got the male first, put him out with our goats where he promptly got beat up, so he's still not sure about the goats but still guards them readily. We got the female about 2 years later. We were without goats at the time so she didn't get raised around them, but instead our male dog. For our next Akbash, we would ideally like to have baby goats around when that puppy arrives so they can grow up together, with a positive experience for both species.

Despite not being properly bonded with the goats, our dogs are natural guarders of everyone and everything that lives here. They guard the cats, kids, goats and us. They have such a natural instinct for protecting their flock, which is much different that a traditional guard dog of the non-livestock variety. Much more intuitive and protective without being blindly aggressive.

The result of not living with the goats when they were pups is that they willingly guard, but aren't buddies with the goats and don't bed down with them.

I wouldn't keep your new guard dog away from your current dogs, they need to be on the same team. But I would make sure that the new guard dog is spending lots of time and sleeping with the goats. (supervised at first to prevent any bad habits of chasing, etc). Hope this helps.


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

Thank you Todd. That does help. Today I ordered the guard dog books. One by Sims and the other is a story's guide book. I have been requiring my 2 existing dogs to be outside more and more. The younger of the 2 seems to have settled down into the scout point man so to speak.While his older 8 year old mama stands by only to participate if just the right alarm bark proceeds out of her son's muzzle.After reading the article that was recommended from Tennessee meat goats and observing my younger dogs actions he makes more sense to me now. He wont lay down with the goats but near them in what seems to be disinterest.In the same manner that he stays near the chickens. He has also enlarged his territory as the article suggested. Since we put up the field fence he and our mama dog make wide passes up to a foot ball field long with their noses to the ground. I am trying to use what we have available to us, but we still are keeping the dogs in at night.And shutting the door on the goats shelter


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## Todd (Jul 16, 2009)

[youtube1egu363]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9DjaJCCcCw[/youtube1egu363]

Here is a great example of what I'm trying to describe. I happened to catch this yesterday through the kitchen window. McKinley is our 7 year old male Akbash, Miles (the cat) absolutely adores McKinley. You can see in this video that McKinley wants purely a business relationship despite Miles' best effort, yet, McKinley is fully committed to protecting Miles.

One day, my sister brought over her wild Boxer who proceeded to chase Miles across the yard. McKinley took pursuit, grabbed the Boxer by the back of the neck and threw him down. Job done. "Don't chase my cat."

Just one of many examples where the dogs have used just enough force to accomplish the task, without being too aggressive.


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

great visual aid. Both your dog and cat are beautiful. I understand that acherage is an issue when owning a LGD. We have 35 acres but the closest neighbor would be visited by a guard dog if we got one. I feel like I should educate them as I educate myself on the possibility. They have horses and I would hate for a missunderstanding to occur. Have you encountered this issue with neighbors? Sorry to be asking so many questions :? The puppy would arrive in the spring just 2 weeks after our girls kid.So the plan is to put the pup into a dog run within the goats pen for safety. Like you said I don't want the pup to get beat up by the goats and cause him or her to be disengaged. 

Thanks for all of your insight Todd. I guess you can tell this is not an easy decision for us. I would much rather be using the finances for a milking shed or pack equiptment  .


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## Todd (Jul 16, 2009)

We have 10 acres and when we moved here we didn't have any neighbors and had a big coyote problem, hence we pursued LGD breeds. We had two of our cats taken right off the porch. 

We now have have two neighbors. We're a little nervous right now because one of the houses sold and we're about to get new ones. The barking has been an issue with the neighbors at the end of our driveway. Our place is fully fenced, but the dogs will often stand at the driveway gate and bark. Usually more in the evening and night time. We've tried to manage this by putting the dogs to bed early (in the shop) if they get diarrhea of the mouth. McKinley uses better judgment in his barking, but our female (Tuli) is more of an alarm barker. We certainly can't leave them out all night or they would keep us up as well. Fencing is pretty critical unless you live in a very rural area as these dogs will roam a large area. They are amazing dogs but must be in the right situation. If you can make it work with your property and neighbors, they are worth their weight in gold.


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

I realize many of the answers to the questions that I am asking will be in the books that i ordered. So I do appreciate all of the time that you have been willing to take to answer my many questions.There are always variables from dog to dog , household to household. So I do appreciate your candidness as well. When you say that your land is fenced do you mean 8 feet high? Because of the size of these dogs I am curious.


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## Todd (Jul 16, 2009)

No, just 4 feet, but they don't challenge it


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

Dawn Brower said:


> I realize many of the answers to the questions that I am asking will be in the books that i ordered. So I do appreciate all of the time that you have been willing to take to answer my many questions.There are always variables from dog to dog , household to household. So I do appreciate your candidness as well. When you say that your land is fenced do you mean 8 feet high? Because of the size of these dogs I am curious.


I think that rather depends on the nature of the dog.
And if he was taught to respect a fence.

I met a couple of Pyreneese. Both rescues.
One was fine with the fence. The other had to be put on a run
because he challenged the fence and just climbed over it.

I have a 5 lb yorkie and he climbs a 4 foot fence.


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

Instead of a LGD (large guard dog) we have a new SGD (small guard dog). This is Jessie, a 2 yr old blue heeler (Australian Cattle Dog) female that we adopted at the local shelter. She is smart, quick, alert, and loves to hike. She's also sweet natured and ok with other dogs and people. She weighs about 35 lb. She really wants to do some goat herding, but I discourage her from chasing them. She would make a great cattle herding dog (what she was bred for). It would be very cool to teach her to keep the goats from lagging behind on the trail, or to keep them from wandering too far from camp. I just don't know anything about training a herding dog. For now she will just be a watchdog and part of the goat hiking crew. She stays close to home and close to the herd, and is very watchful. I think these are also things that were bred into these dogs. I have read that they are made up of an English herding dog of some kind, Dalmation (for horse sense), and Dingo. They were bred to be able to 'follow cowboys on horseback thru very rough country and herd cattle by biting their heels. Being a hiking buddy and a packgoat guard dog will be easy work for her. She wouldn't amount to much in a fight with predators, but that's not her job. She just needs to let me know there's a problem.


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

Wow she is beautiful also. And she looks like she is all muscle.One of our dog's is a lab, retriever,border collie, and catahula mix Phew... He likes to herd the chickens and is great at treeing squirels :lol: He has been cooperating very nicely in regards to staying outdoors more these days. He is tall and lanky for the most part around 85 lbs. Not quite a LDG. But I think he would give a coyote a hard time.I realize that I can plan and implement all kinds of barrier's to help with the predators in our area( bear, lion,coyote...) but ultimately if something wants to get to the goats I guess it will.It is nice to have a warning though.I see you got some snow , we did also.My girls (goats, Melody and Harmony) keep asking for a walk but it's way to cold.The dogs have to stop frequently to chew the ice out from in between their peds. BRRRR.Does Jessie stay outside in the barn at night/


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

One more thing came to mind. Can you tell me more about what you did to make your barn and fencing coyote and dog proof? Our barn is set to go up in the spring.


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

Jessie sleeps in a dog house I built into a shed near the house. It has a doggy door to keep out the wind, and a couple of clip-on lights shining down on her bed. I put two lights there in case one burns out. I don't want her to sleep in the house for two reasons. First, she won't be a watchdog if she is inside. Second I want her to be tougher and be comfortable if we don't make it home some night or if we go on a trip. I want her to have her own house and not have to be let in or out by the neighbors, or be used to sleeping in the house.

The way I made my pen dog/coyote proof was to built it out of 5 ft high livestock panels. These panels have openings 4" square top to bottom (unlike the usual ones that have big openings at the top). I then wired steel T posts to the cattle panels, sticking up another 5 ft. I attached some old field fence wire to those, all the way around. The cattle panels are so strong no dog can tear thru them. And with the fence wire above, the whole fence is about 9 ft high. There are rocks all along the bottom of the cattle panels to make it hard to dig under the fence. The barn is made of corrugated steel built onto a wooden frame. I dug a trench below the outside walls and filled it with rocks and concrete. The gate into the pen is only 4 ft high but there is fence wire above it. You have to duck to enter the pen. A mountain lion or bobcat could jump up on the roof and down into the pen, or a bear could tear into the barn. But it would be very difficult to protect against that. I am counting on Jessie to let me know if any bad critters come around.

One end of the barn is the hay and feed storage area. Next to that is the goat house. There is a slot cut in the wall for the goats to stick their heads thru to eat. There are feeders installed on the hay side of the wall. That way you don't have to go in the goat pen to feed the boys. I put cattle panel lids on the feeders so chickens can't get out thru the feeders, and bad critters can't get in. The lids pivot up so I can put hay or other treats in.

Here are a few pics.


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## Hasligrove (Dec 10, 2008)

I just got a guard dog too. I Love her! I was worried about some of the same things. Didn't want a big aggressive dog since I have small kids and other kids around. Luckily we moved into our new home and just down the road a new Vet and LGD breeder moved in. They have Kangals which is a Turkish breed. She is wonderful with people. My 1 year old can sit next to her, pull on an ear or stick her fingers in her food dish and she doesn't care. When I first brought her home my husband was away fishing...one day when I was gone he came home and decided to go in and see her....no problem at all. She was happy to see someone. Now if he tried to sneek in in the middle of the night it probably would be different. The first time I walked over to the barn in the night she barked at me but as soon as she heard my voice she was fine. I didn't want an attack dog....but a guard dog. Big difference.

The goats....they are adjusting. They are not best friends but coexisting fine. I think she is still a bit puppy (will be 1 year Jan 20th) and wants someone to play with at times. Most of the time I look out there and she is super serious or runs off to investigate something and then she will run around wide open for a few minutes with a big puppy grin on her face. It is really interesting to watch her work.

Oh...I did get to see her scary side. My poor brother and girlfirend came to visit with their golden retriever. They came into the pen to see the goats and dog and the retriver wanted to follow them. Well Nuray (the guard dog) would have none of that. Lots of barking, growling and hair standing up. I was right there and had no fear for myself but she did not want that dog in the pen with her. Not sure what would have happened if we let the retriever in...we didn't want to find out...but if I were another dog or anything trying to get in....I'd run for the hills!

I'm very impressed with her and think all will be great once I learn a bit more too.


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

beautiful dog. do they need tons of property?


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello Rachel,

congrats on your new guard dog. Just please keep in mind that Kangals mature late, she won't come fully into her own until she's older and you may have some problems with her then that you have to work out.

We have lots of Kangals in Germany - sadly most of them don't have to guard anything and therefore are out of their element - and most of their owners say that the dogs are almost too easy to get along with in the first 2 years.


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## Hasligrove (Dec 10, 2008)

We have 11.5 acres but only about 1 acre is fenced where the goats and the dog live. So far she seems ok. The breeder that I got her from said it would be fine and they have their dogs in about the same space right now. I do see the puppy in her and am working with the breeder to make sure she dosen't develope any bad habits.

Sabine-can you expand on what to expect? Do they get better with age...or more aggressive or problematic?


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Rachel,

they get more protective and territorial and loose the last of the playfulness.

I don't have first-hand experience with Kangals, except meeting one not good socialized and one very relaxed and easy-going one.

What Kangal owners told me is that owners new to the breed underestimate the need to train the dogs in the first year - because they are so easy going - and then experience problems in the daily routine when the dogs grow up. If they haven't learned f.e. to accept visitors or children, etc. it gets complicated when the protectiveness kicks fully in.


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

I do love my big white dogs.I've had a succession of Great Pyrenees and I like the fact that they seem more mellow than the maremma or anatolians I've met. They are not at all reluctant to do their job though. And one attack spared makes them worth their food. I got mine from a professional breeder in eastern Washington, Sharon McCoy, and the pups are born with the goats, not imprinted on humans and left with the older dogs till they are 3 1/2 months. Wwhen you bring them home they need to be penned and hand fed for a couple of weeks to bond them with you. They immediately go out and start makingfriends with the goats. Little Annie would go around and sit with groups of them and make friends. It was really cute to watch her take them under her wing. She is my second dog and is 8 now.

She does go walkabout sometimes and needs hotwire around the pasture to keep her in. I only have 1 1/2 acres and she would like to patrol the neighbors for about a half mile around.But we keep the wire on to keep her home.
I would highly recommend and dog over a llama, but I like dogs.


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

We visited our pediatrician yesterday, an 18 year llama packer. Although he boasts of his lama's performance on the trail. He did say that it takes a special llama with a propensity to guard for that whole thing to work. He did share a story about a llama who gave his life to protect a herd of 30 sheep. Not one sheep was lost but the lama died.In his opinion these lama's were few and far between.


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

I realize it's been a long time since I last posted on this topic. Since my last post our older dog dislocated her leg and is unable to "work" so to speak. We weren't sure if we wanted to spend the money that had been given to us by the man who owned the dog's that attacked the herd on another dog.WHEN ,a friend of mine asked if we would be interested in her Anatolian /Pyrenees mix pups.Please let me say that there is a great amount of respect that should be given these LGD's for their strength and size. I found and would highly recommend the reading of two books, Livestock Protection Dogs By: Orysia Dawydiak & David Sims and Livestock Guard Dog's By: Janet Vorwald. These books in tandem were very helpful to us in making our decision. The insight and experience of the authors of the livestock protection dogs. Was helpful because they broke things down by breed...And the Livestock Guardians book helped us to see other areas where we could add additional safeguards that were not yet in place. Again I know that taking into consideration where we live if something is going to try hard enough to get to the goats it probably will. However as of June 2011 our herd now has a mouth piece . Her name is Tova. Although she is now only 4 months old. She has proven herself faithful to sound the alarm when there is a real threat. Recently she came from the pen and rushed to greet not the other dogs standing nearby, but her herd one by one, I would not have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. She was born in a goat barn and raised for 8 weeks by my friend Amy's 8 children 7 are boys.  So she is well socialized to children and adults alike. She enjoys a mind challenge although I have to agree with what others have said about selective hearing.Basic commands of take it and leave it have proven valuable and she even sits before we reach out to pet her. I believe whole heatedly that the meager beginnings of these puppies makes a big difference. We offer farm visits to families who are considering our goats as part of a herd share program here in CO. so she is perfect for the children who visit us. I can't thank you all enough for the great and honest advice and cautions in regards to breeds.So far 5 goats no losses and one happy goat and dog owner.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

first not all guard dogs are created equal. different breeds have been bread for different conditions.
some breeds of LSG dog are herd protectors they protect the stock were ever they go. other breeds are boundary defenders if you move your stock the dog will not follow. if you force him to move he will return to his territory if he can.

Great Perinies have been bread to roam and find problems in the open country side. they are not good if you have lots of traffic. they will be dead. 
Obcosh sp? have been bread to fight off wolves. i consider them the best guards but they will bit people with out hesitation. like grand ma picking up your kids or the garbage man stealing your garbage. and then there is that funny looking man in shorts, the ups driver.

every breed has its own nitch and you must study that nitch and decide if it fits your needs.

I raise Maremma live stock gaurd dogs. they are from Italy they have been breed for small farms and stay close to the stock. they are very friendly to humans and are thought to be the least likely to bit. the problem is that they often like there humans more than there stock and hang around the house to much. to prevent that you feed them at varying times and only among the flock never in the barn or back door.

At this time i am training 5 pups they are 4 months old and will not be ready to move for at least two more months. i have one that is over humanized that will go for less but she still is working.


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

hmmmmm! Maremmas might be the dog for me then.
I only have an acre. And my next dog I wanted to live
with the goats. Yet go for walks with us. WITHOUT taking off
hunting.
All the other breeds seemed to wonder. And while I am surrounded by vacant lots. I want the dog to stay home with the goats.
It would need to get along with grandkids, yorkies and a cat.
Am I asking too much? LOL


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

"get along with grand kids, yorkies and a cat"
that is no problem.
live stock dogs do not fight for the fun of the fight. they assess the danger threat and act with appropriate aggressiveness. some times that may be a bark other times a tail raised high like a club and or it may be the hair bristled on there back. it may be a bump or rolling the dog, very rarely do you see a full out fight. when that happens heaven help the poor dog and DO NOT get involved!

also if your goats can not get out then the dog can not also.
now the walks----- the Maremma will run ahead and check out every nook and cranny along the way. i think i would keeping the Maremma on a lead.
one last thing is the size of the Maremma they are about the size of a golden retriever.


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

When Tova first arrived we kept her on a lead for weeks during walks and chores. This helped to establish boundaries. The older more experienced dogs have also been of great help.She hasn't met our grandkids yet but it has gone well with other itty bitties who have visited.Something I forgot to mention was in the Guard dog protection book there is a puppy assessment outline.Out of 5 puppies to choose from we found some if not most of the exercises to be effective in the process of choosing a puppy.We were told and had experienced it with our youngest fog prior to getting Tova, that they don't really start to "guard" until their second or third year. I realize this varies from pup to pup and the bred propensity to guard.But Tova has already shown signs of guarding. Through the night and the way she posts herself at high points on the property....If this is just the beginning we are really happy.She like any other dog will need frequent exposure to children and company arriving and going. And yes there is that special brown truck with the man inside that offers dog treats in our neck of the woods.


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## WGARDNER (Aug 20, 2011)

I have two Great Pyrenees with my goats at all times. They think they are goats. You need to get puppies. Don't buy an older dog that was raised in the house. The pups are then raised with your goats (always). Don't play fetch with them (it teaches them to chase). Treat them like your wethers. A pat when you come into the pen. They are worth their weight in gold. We have had just about every predator up here in the mountains in Montana and we haven't lost any goats since the dogs. Your goats will eventually get use to the dogs; my herd will run behind the dogs for protection. Don't let them bash into the pup when itâ€™s young


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## Dawn Brower (Oct 13, 2010)

I agree with the goats putting themselves behind the dogs. In the middle of the night I can tell how real a threat might be as I look out to see where the goats are. Recently all of the goats were behind our girl in the corner of our pen. When we noticed a neighbors dog just behind us. (That dog is long gone back to the rescue agency from whence it came) Be cautious about inheriting other folks problem dogs. I agree whole heartedly that the dog should be brought onto your farms as a pup when at all possible for the best turnout.


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## CASDOG1 (Feb 1, 2013)

I breed working livestock guardians. If anyone is interested in selecting a breed, finding a good breeder or rescue, & training an LGD, please feel free to join my Facebook group, Learning About LGDs.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/LearningAboutLGDs/

We cover, training, introduction, how to decide on the right breed, containment, how to evaluate a breeder or a rescue dog, & anything else you might want to know about livestock guardian dogs. We have many members who are either breeders, farmers that are long time LGD users, or both, as well pet owners with LGD breeds, so you can find lots of experienced folks there to help you out with anything LGD related.

Two of my dogs are actually dual-purpose dogs who accompany me as protection dogs on backpacking trips. Naturally they will protect my goats as well.


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