# Goat with injured hock...possibly septic



## uniquely-southern (Nov 26, 2013)

Yesterday I bought a set of bottle baby twins that are 6 weeks old (still on the bottle). The deal was that I was actually buying the female but I had to take her brother that was free. He was holding up his back leg...breeder mentioned that he got a selenium shot since he wasn't standing and it probably hit the nerve. She said he'd work it out eventually. He was moving around but never put his leg down. We noticed that his hock was very stiff and swollen so took him to the Vet for an x-ray to be sure it wasn't broken. Vet said that his joint was out of place (probably from a slight injury) and was very infected and septic. He doesn't expect him to live but said we could try TLC and an injection of Excede...of course we decided it is worth the try. He said that if he did make it, he will probably never use his leg. Unfortunately, the vet will treat goats but sometimes I wonder how much he truly knows about goats. Today, the baby boy is still carrying his leg but eating about double of a bottle that he ate yesterday. He is also nibbling on hay and feed. He wants to eat hay, feed, and bottle standing up. He seems to not let his leg slow him down but gets tired easily and lays down a lot. Any suggestions to help him? I want to do the best I can to give him the best life possible if he makes it.


----------



## AvyNatFarm (Oct 29, 2013)

Don't have good advice, but wanted to say good luck with him! I had a friend who's young goat actually broke her leg. They had a good vet who set it in a cast. With some TLC she was fine.


----------



## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

Is he on any sort of antibiotic? If it truely is infected and septic you will need to get the infection completely under control. Was there any sort of abrasion/cut? Or was it just dislocated?


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

poor little man..this will be a uphill battle for him..what I have learned through some unpleasant experiance with this is he will need daily antibiotics..Baytril is whats recommended...along with banamine for inflammation and pain..the "one shot hes good" will not work with this! the hard thing is that infection can spread to his liver and bladder...if this happens the kindest thing to do is having him put down...my advice is be aggressive in his treatment now...and hope it hasnt already spread...keep tabs on his temp...
Best wishes!!!


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Cathy, where did you get the recommendation for the Baytril? I'm asking because I know prolonged use of Baytril has a nasty habit of destroying joint cartilage in calves and dogs and, although I could very well be wrong, I see no reason why it wouldn't do the same thing to kids. There is a warning on the box that states if using the one-time dose for calves, do not give again for 30 days.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

When I had a little buck with this, I was given Draxxin..one shot ...by day three he was worse again and I put him n Nuflor...he began to improve and then slowly starting shutting down...my vet told me it spread to his liver...when talking with Susan from tennessee meat goats suggested it . she told me it was the only thing that worked for her..And yes...it is a strong antibiotic. For this illness a strong antibiotic is needed...


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I understand and agree that a strong antibiotic is needed to deal with this, but I don't see where she would be gaining anything if Baytril does indeed destroy the joint cartilage in this little guy. There are other strong antibiotics - Draxxin, Exceed, Excenel - that could be every bit as effective without the side-effects of Baytril. Just my .02 cents.


----------



## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

There have been good suggestions. I would go ahead and ad some vitamin c powder to everything you are doing. One desert spoon full a day. Also be sure he has minerals as I remember reading once that genetics and low copper and high zinc levels could possibly be a leading factor in septic joints in the long run. (basically those animals with proper mineral levels have a better recovery rate). I would do at least 2 to 3 weeks of vitamin c. Did the vet do any infusions in the hock or take a sample to test the infection? Please keep us posted on how he is doing.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> I understand and agree that a strong antibiotic is needed to deal with this, but I don't see where she would be gaining anything if Baytril does indeed destroy the joint cartilage in this little guy. There are other strong antibiotics - Draxxin, Exceed, Excenel - that could be every bit as effective without the side-effects of Baytril. Just my .02 cents.


Yes this is true..but I can tell you from experiance draxxin did nothing for my buck..Nuflor did a better job, but was given too late...Baytril was suggested based on her experiance... shared to me if I ever face the problem again....

I found this from her web sight ..basically its the same thing she told me via Email..although this talks about joint ill as a navel ill, goats can and do get joint ill from infection that leads to joint ill as infection spreads...this is what I was dealing iwth in my buck..



> Joint Ill (aka Navel Ill) occurs when bacteria travels up a newborn kid's wet navel cord and migrates to its (usually) leg joints. Over a period of days or weeks, the kid begins to limp as joints swell. Antibiotic treatment is required, is usually long term (weeks rather than days), and the kid may have life-long residual effects from the infection. Arthritis may develop as the kid gets older. Avoid Joint Ill by dipping the kid's wet navel cord immediately after birth in a strong iodine solution -- all the way up to its body. Baytril 100 injectable is an excellent antibiotic with which to treat Joint Ill and is the *only* antibiotic that this writer has found that is strong enough to cure Joint Ill. This antibiotic kills organisms that other antibiotics don't affect. Baytril 100 usage is restricted in food animals in some locales. However, your vet can prescribe it.


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I know joint ill is a monster to treat, is very, very difficult to knock out, and takes months of antibiotics to even have a chance of knocking it out. I do not wish to become argumentative, and have brought to light the issues I wanted to make known, so I will back off and leave it to the OP to decide whether he/she wants to risk cartilage destruction or try to find another antibiotic that will knock it out.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> I do not wish to become argumentative


I didnt find you argumentive : ) ..its good we point out other views..this helps us keep seeking information...you were right to bring it up :mrgreen: Its worth looking into, as well as give the OP information to make a choice she deems best in her situation : )


----------



## uniquely-southern (Nov 26, 2013)

He is on an antibiotic....Excede. No external wounds...just dislocated


----------



## uniquely-southern (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks so much for all of the suggestions. One thing we have noticed since getting into the goat world....people are willing to help each other. I don't know if it is joint ill. Dr. x-rayed it and said his joint was dislocated...probably from getting stepped on or happened during birth. In fact, Dr. thinks he will never walk on it if he does survive because it would heal dislocated. Right now I want to keep him alive, but would love for him to use it again, even if he does a have a slight limp. He won't put it on the ground now. He had Excede injected. So I guess I have to wait a week to do something else? How will I know if it is not infected anymore or we are in the clear? So far not getting worse. In fact, ate more bottle today than yesterday.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Usually an infection causes an elevated temperature. Normal is 101.5 to 103 for a goat. Checking his temp once or twice a day would maybe give you some warning.


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

happybleats said:


> I didnt find you argumentive : ) ..its good we point out other views..this helps us keep seeking information...you were right to bring it up :mrgreen: Its worth looking into, as well as give the OP information to make a choice she deems best in her situation : )


Thank you, Cathy, I appreciate that. I know I can come across very strong sometimes and I did not want to do that. But, on the other hand, I felt it was important that the OP knew about the possibility of cartilage damage. Why can't the drug companies just get with the program and start developing and testing goat specific drugs? That would solve soooo many problems!


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

uniquely-southern said:


> I don't know if it is joint ill. Dr. x-rayed it and said his joint was dislocated...probably from getting stepped on or happened during birth. In fact, Dr. thinks he will never walk on it if he does survive because it would heal dislocated. Right now I want to keep him alive, but would love for him to use it again, even if he does a have a slight limp. He won't put it on the ground now. He had Excede injected. So I guess I have to wait a week to do something else? How will I know if it is not infected anymore or we are in the clear? So far not getting worse. In fact, ate more bottle today than yesterday.


I'm thinking your vet is not knowledgeable about goats? If it was just a dislocation of his hock, it would be a simple matter of popping it back into place and putting on a splint/cast/support to keep it in place until the tendons and muscles heal. Dislocated joints don't usually become infected, let alone septic. There is a lot more going on here than a simple dislocation. I googled Excede and there is nothing about it being good for a week, even in cattle. It did say that the normal dosage was every 4 days for horses. Goats metabolism is much faster than cattle or horses. Draxxin is good in cattle for 14 days, but in goats it needs to be given every 7 days to be effective. Are you understanding what I'm saying?


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I had never heard of it effecting/destroying cartilage but rather it being bad for younger still growing animals. I checked to make sure (Didnt want Crazy to get all... crazy  and this is the blurb from the wiki facts about it.

"Baytril should not be used in rapidly-growing animals (for example dogs under 12 months - 18 months in large breeds, or kittens under 8 weeks) as it causes abnormalities in the development of articular cartilage"

Livestrong, not a site I ever pull info from as they are more of a assumption site then a factual site had this to say for he possible side effect:
Baytril may cause lesions to appear across the cartilage that surrounds the joints within the body of a treated cat or dog. Cartilage is tough, flexible tissue that protects the joint and allows cats and dogs to remain flexible and active. Cartilage lesions may cause side effects of joint swelling, which can cause joint pain or difficulty walking in affected pets, PetPlace.com warns. If these side effects emerge, pet owners should take an affected pet to a veterinarian as soon as possible. (But no mention of age, so unknown if they are meaning all animals or just young ones).

From E-how, they support the young animal precaution:
Avoid giving this medication to newborn animals all the way up to approximately thirty weeks. Young animals can develop joint damage and problems if given this medication too early.

To conclude this is a very powerful drug. When needed, its pros far outweigh the cons it would seem.

​


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Back in August I had a 6mo doe kid of mine start limping. The next day she was three legged. I honestly thought she had a broken leg. I didn't have much hope, but liked her well enough to take her into the vet. The vet knocked her out and took an x-ray. He came back out and said it wasn't broken. He said judging by the fuzzy look to the joint surface of her elbow joint, he thought she had infection in the joint. Joint ill. He said to give her Nuflor. The Nuflor did nothing. She was going down hill. Temp, not eating, etc. The vet switched her to Clindamycin . It came in 6ml vials. I believe we gave her one vial 2X/ day IM for 5 days. She made a complete recovery. Even though the Clindamycin was given IM, it was *way* easier on her than the Nuflor. That Nuflor stings them like a beotch. I was talking to Coni Ross about this doeling during the time and she recommended Baytril. When I told her my vet prescribed Clindamycin, she said she was surprised, but pleased my vet was willing to prescribe an off label drug that would work. I was just glad my girl turned out OK.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Also its good to note that joint ill is not just a new born illness caused by bacteria entering the wet navel... joint ill can also be when the infection the goat has been fighting spreads..this infection lands either in the lungs or joints.

I think I would seek another vet to see if resetting the leg is an option, and wether a daily antibiotic would be better than long acting...
I agree with goathiker..keep a watch on his temp...it is an indicator of infection..

here is an article on joint ill 
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/musculoskeletal_system/lameness_in_goats/joint-ill_in_goats.html

Best wishes


----------



## uniquely-southern (Nov 26, 2013)

This is an update: after 1 1/2 weeks, he is still alive, has mobility in his leg, and is using it a little bit! There is still a mass in his hock but he is doing so much better! Now we are somewhat concerned on how he uses his other back leg....side effect of carrying the other one so much I think. Thanks for all of the advice. I hope he keeps trucking. We will continue antibiotics and hope for the best


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks for the update. Glad he is doing better and hope he makes a full recovery for you.


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

uniquely-southern said:


> This is an update: after 1 1/2 weeks, he is still alive, has mobility in his leg, and is using it a little bit! There is still a mass in his hock but he is doing so much better! Now we are somewhat concerned on how he uses his other back leg....side effect of carrying the other one so much I think. Thanks for all of the advice. I hope he keeps trucking. We will continue antibiotics and hope for the best


Improvement is always a positive sign, and I hope he keeps it up! Once he has full use of the injured leg, I think the other leg will straighten out. Thanks for updating us!


----------



## uniquely-southern (Nov 26, 2013)

Update: It is now many months later and our little buck is alive and doing well! He also uses his leg! If I don't point it out, no one notices that he walks slightly different. He has a slight mass on the joint, but he doesn't let it stop him. He is constantly challenging our other buck and weathers that are 6-12 months older than him! He is VERY spoiled now. I guess from all of that love and care in the beginning. I'm so grateful he recovered from this!

Now we are dealing with his twin sister. She started limping about a month ago, but never as bad as he did. We have squeezed completely down her leg and foot and feel no swelling and she doesn't react to us touching her. We started exceed 1 1/2 weeks ago (had 2 treatments now) and she seems to use her leg now but she is VERY WEAK and VERY ANEMIC. A few days ago, all we could get her to eat was a little alfalfa and a gatarade bottle (just recently weaned) I was pleased because yesterday I was also able to get her to eat some hay and feed out of my hands. She has been tested and no worms or coccidia. Her temp is staying at high 103 and her fecals are VERY tiny balls....never seen so tiny. Dr. now concerned if both of these had/have joint ill or microplasma since now both twins have issues. He wants to try Baytril. I am waiting for the vet I want to get a second opinion from calls me back. One thing is for sure, I may be done with this particular breeder.


----------



## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Baytril has been especially useful to us. How old were these babies when you got them? The breeder may not have dipped the navels in iodine. I would treat for naval ill of course to rule that out. Especially if they both had the same symptoms.


----------

