# Antibiotics After Hard Kidding?



## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

Fiona gave birth to one very large kid late yesterday. She couldn't even get the hoof out and when I did I couldn't believe how big it was. Even the kids back hips got hung up after his head and shoulders were out. She bled a bit and is very swollen today. I only had to go in a little past my wrist to help her and I don't know if I should give antibiotics or not. What is your practice? If I had to go in deeper I would go ahead and give antibiotics, but I am wondering if it would be OK to wait and give them if she starts having whitish discharge. Thanks in advance for your input!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

If I go in, I do give antibiotics. My vet said that he prefers Combi-Pen in that situation because it is broad spectrum and not targeted at all. He doesn't want to risk giving a targeting antibiotic and miss something else that may have been introduced.

This is what he insists I use...









But he knows that I don't give antibiotics in my feed or minerals at all, ever, and although my farm is not "clean" (especially after the last Winter!!!!) the bacteria is still very sensitive to antibiotics. The situation on other farms may be vastly different.

Those huge kids can be terrifying. Great job maneuvering it out.


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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks mariarose! I thought I pulled as hard as I could on the doe that gave birth to twins a couple of weeks ago, but I found out I could pull harder! ;-) When I went in at first I felt the hoof and didn't know what it was it was so big. at first I thought maybe I was feeling a deformed nose and then I decided it was both legs. When I got it out I saw it was only one hoof so I had to go back in and find the other one. When I did get both legs I pulled for all I was worth and hardly made headway. I was very relieved when his head came out, but had to pull quite hard to get his back end out too. He has good sized horn buds already. I missed writing down her last breeding date because she had an odd cycle and I forgot, but I wouldn't be suprised if she is a week overdue. We were joking about her not wanting to nurse him so she decided just to raise him to weaning age before having him. One of his back legs bends forwards now and he has a hard time walking on his front legs. He is taking a bottle well. I haven't weighed him yet but won't be surprised if he is over 12 lbs.

I had problems with large kids a couple of years ago when my goats went overdue, but thought it was because I increased their grain ration during the last week or two to try to prepare them for milking better. I fed them 2 cups of 17% feed and 2 cups of alfalfa pellets daily right up until kidding this time, but I will definitely be cutting back next year. I may also induce them if they go more than a couple of days over.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You probably know this already, but this is a suggestion for a newbie, Remember to pull down, not just out. It can help disengage those hips.

Also, once the head and front legs are out, I transfer my efforts to the rib cage to protect the front leg joints.

As I said, this is for a newbie. I'm not criticizing anything about your delivery. Sometimes these threads help in the future.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I don't give antibiotics unless I go all the way in, way past my wrist. If I need to give antibiotics I give Pen G. its given 2 times a day. The one Marirose showed is 48 hour and given once a day. Both are broad spectrum. Those single kids can give us a scare! Glad you were able to deliver him. little Prep H will help moms swollen back end. Congrats!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

happybleats said:


> Prep H will help moms swollen back end.


Oh, never thought about that product. Thanks.


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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

I did find that pulling down helped. Actually it was the only way I got him to budge. Honestly I had both hands on his front legs and pulled for all I was worth and still couldn't get him to move even with pulling down. I read in one thread here that propping the back end up helped, but it was raining and storming and I didn't have anything I could think of to prop her on.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Again, I'm not criticizing you. I'm sure this only happened because of your skill and knowledge.


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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Again, I'm not criticizing you. I'm sure this only happened because of your skill and knowledge.


Or maybe determination and prayers ;-)

And I am not sensitive to feedback so no worries.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Is he sired by the same buck you had a couple years ago when you had instances of oversized kids? Which breed?


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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

Yes he is sired by the same buck. Both are Alpines.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I would guess your buck comes from high birth weight genetics which is causing the issue rather than grain feeding or going overdue based on what you have described.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I never just give antibiotics after assisting a birth. Only if there were dead/rotting kids, or the doe shows signs of developing an infection(which we’ve never had happen.) Giving antibiotics when there is no real reason is what speeds up antibiotic resistance.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Some selenium (Bo-Se) injected sub q, with an oral Vitamin E gel cap squirted in his mouth should help the legs. 

Good job getting him out. Hip locked kids are awful. 

You could give the doe a shot of VitaminB complex just to help her a little.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I do agree, just keep an eye on her and glove up with a new surgical glove and gently insert your finger tip after at a week after she kidded, do a sniff test, if it stinks, start antibiotics, if not, no need to. 
Then check in another week, if by that time frame, she smells normal and no infection is there, she should be good to go thereafter and no meds need to be given.

Sorry it was a hard delivery.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ranger1 said:


> I never just give antibiotics after assisting a birth. Only if there were dead/rotting kids, or the doe shows signs of developing an infection(which we've never had happen.) Giving antibiotics when there is no real reason is what speeds up antibiotic resistance.


Pretty much the same. Dead kids, it depends on what's up. A dead kid that looked like it recently died, nothing odd about it I'll stick some boluses in her, anything that is totally nasty and then I pull out the antibiotics. Like the time I pulled something out that looked like a bag with nothing in it but tiny little bones. I went ahead and pulled out the antibiotics. The only time o have ever had a doe get infected though was when she retained her placenta


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Y'all've given me a lot to think about, not giving meds...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

So she didn't eat all of her grain this morning and wasn't acting too perky. I stopped and got some penicillin on the way home. She was pretty foul smelling when I used Pam's finger test. I gave her a dose of the Durapen. According to what I could find I used 1 mL/20 lbs. It is once daily dosing. How many doses would be typical? What about milk withdrawal?
Thanks!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes, 1 cc per 20# sub Q and you should give penicillin 5-7 days. Be sure to pull back the plunger before injecting. Pen in the vein can kill a goat. Hope she feels better soon! Milk withdrawl is 48 hours.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree. :up:

Glad you determined why she was sluggish and did the sniff test. 
It tells you a lot. 

I would give the Pen 2 x a day. SQ
Hopefully she will feel better soon.


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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

Pam, why twice a day? I thought the durapen was once daily and regular penicillin was twice daily.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

With goats quick metabolism, it is best to do 2 x a day.


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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

Still 1 mL/20 lbs?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes.


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