# How long is labor?



## Happeesupermom (Oct 3, 2013)

This is my first experience & Buttercup is a first-timer. We noticed about an hour ago that there was "water all over the floor of the enclosed pen area. When my son told me, I rushed out to check on her. 

I noticed there's something sticking out her back side. Looks like something with fur on it, so I'm guessing it's part of a kid. 

She's having regular contractions & I see her pushing some. Then, in between contractions, she's resting, chewing on hay & sometimes stands to walk around a little bit. 

I've got blankets & towels ready. It's 33 stinking degrees outside! I've also pulled a small portable heater or here to keep the shed warmish. 

Since this is my first experience, I don't know if I should try to intervene. How long does this take? 

TIA! 

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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

if its been an hour, probably time to check position of kids...with really clean hands and short nails look as what is presenting. Is it a hoof? If so, is it pointing up or down? Down means breech, fromt means face first. Try to follow it back and find another hoof. there should be either another hoof or a nose. You can pull the one leg out and down a little bit while momma pushes. Ideally there will be two hooves and a nose on top. Pulling the hoof gently down and forward with contractions slides the shoulder of the kid forward and makes more room in there...that may be all she needs.


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## Happeesupermom (Oct 3, 2013)

OK. Yeah, I think it's a hoof. It's not sticking up, but I think that's because it's past the first joint? 

Since her contractions aren't exactly back to back, I'm guessing (like human labor) she's in the first phase of labor? In between contractions she's getting up, chewing & relaxing. 

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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

By pointing up or down, I mean are the toes pointing / facing up or are the toes facing down. If you can see a hoof and she's not progressing, she needs help. She's going to tire out and not be able to push. BUT....you've got something to hold on to, so helping *should* be simple. Is there only one hoof and are the toes facing up or down? You need to figure out if there's another hoof on its way out or a nose. If the toe is facing down...you've got a breech kid coming and you want to help get them out since their umbilical cord will be pinched cutting off oxygent to them if she takes too long. In that case you need to reach in until you feel the butt, hook your finger around the other hip bone and try to pull with contractions. If you cant, you'll have to try and fish the other leg out.,

If it's a front hoof, find either the other hoof or the nose. Many does can deliver with one leg back. You'll want to pull the one leg out farther then slide your hand up gently over the little head and cup it, pulling down and out.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

If you don't know what's there...it can be hard to feel. Close your eyes, it helps your hands "see" better. You will feel eithr another hoof, a pointy butt or a nose/face with ears attached. Follow the leg into the doe slowly between contractions

The hoof will have a white coating on it and be gel-like. Behind it will be the dew claws. If the dew claws are on top and the point part of the hoof facing the ground, you have a breech (common) or upside down (rare) kid. If the dewclaws are on the bottom and the point part of the hoof is pointing up...kids is coming face first (ideal) and may just be stuck, especially if other leg is back.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Here's a link with kid positions ...you are way past the first phase of labor with the kid partially out, think about an infant crowning and then mama not making progress. she's going to get tired on you if you don't help....but you can do this. Might have someone else call the vet just in case you can't get them out.

http://www.gryphontor.com/showarticle.php?id=7


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She needs help ASAP. Whether it be a vet or a knowledgeable goat breeder. Or even you, to wash up and try to go in and feel what is going on.

It is bad the longer you wait. Momma goat is in jeopardy as well.


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## Happeesupermom (Oct 3, 2013)

It's butt first! Vet is out of the office. I'm locked out of my house & car. Stuck in shed with goat mama in Freezing temps. I'm scared. I don't know what to do! 

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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

You've got this. Did you click on the link I gave you? It will show you how to fix this. If you have some string or rope it will help you.... Is the butt sticking out or just the foot with the butt next...GOATS CAN DELIVER BREECH...it's even considered normal .....deep breath...


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

If what you see is uts butt...not a hoof like you thought...then loop a finger around the hip on each side and pull firmly....that kid may need help to get breathing....swinging it upside down and rubbing its back is a goid start...clear its mucous from mouth and nose first...

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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

A pic would help...gotta get this kiddo out!


you may just have to get a hold of what you can and pull...hold between contractions so it doesn't slip back in and then pull again. If she's getting week and you can't tell if she's pushing..., just pull...

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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Any news? 

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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh my, how's it going?


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## Happeesupermom (Oct 3, 2013)

OK. Just got back in from the vet's office. 

I did help Buttercup deliver her baby breach, after my last frantic post. But she was stillborn. I tried hanging her upside down, cleaning out her mouth & nose... but it was too late. I think Buttercup was in labor too long with the baby in this position; it must have drowned. 

Afterwards, Buttercup just kinda sat around & didn't seem to want to stand. When I finally got her to stand, she staggered a bit & shivering. I thought she might have been in shock. I was able to find a friend to help me get her to the vet's office, where they felt for another kid (there was none). So they gave her a shot of oxytocin to help her deliver the placenta, which she did. Then they gave her a shot for pain & antibiotics. They told me she may have temporary back leg weakness/paralysis due to the breach baby putting pressure on a nerve for too long & that's why she was staggering some. She should be fine in a couple of days.

I'm glad Buttercup is going to be OK. I'm sad we lost her only baby, though. 

I will be milking her starting immediately, but won't keep the milk for a couple of weeks (after her whole milk comes in).

THANK YOU all for your concern & advice. The link for the kidding positions helped me get a good mental picture of what was going on! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

So unfortunate about the doeling--so much anticipation, sad outcome! But, if I might offer a suggestion about the milk--colostrum is liquid gold, and you might want to freeze it in baggies against the day that you or a neighbour has a doe with more kids than she can feed. Many on this forum have done so, and been glad of it.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Keep that first milking and freeze it. That is colostrum and that is liquid gold.

I'm so sorry you lost the kid.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Ur welcome...sorry it wasnt a better outcome but so glad you got the kid out for your doe. Shell have more kids...but u cant replace her...give her extra hugs and be sure to do the full course of antibiotics

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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Also give her a bucket of hot water with a good amount of molasses a little salt and some cider vinegar if you have it...helps her recover

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## Happeesupermom (Oct 3, 2013)

Thank you so much. Yes, I'll keep & freeze the colostrum. And I'll give her some of that warm water stuff you described. Thank you. 

I'm just feeling so sad right now. It's been a difficult winter. My husband left in November. I lost my entire flock of chickens that following weekend. Lost all my container garden to high winds & freeze. Now this. :-( 

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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Shivering after kidding ,can be milk fever too. 

Sorry for your loss 

Good work by the way, glad a vet seen her.


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## Wlschwallenberg (Jan 4, 2013)

Be proud of yourself for all you did. Loss is tough no matter how it happens- so sorry you've had a rough few months. :hug:


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Oh wow. What a tough day for you. Glad to hear Buttercup is ok, but so sorry about losing the kid. Thank God hallsthirdacre was here to help you thru it. :hug:


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## PantoneH (Nov 21, 2013)

I am SO sorry for losing that baby!!!! You did the best you could!!!!!!! I had the same situation nearly...if I hadnt had a friend call me back right before I went in on my doe, I wouldve lost the twins she had. :[ I was in hysterics.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

So sorry for your troubles :hug: Hope your doe recovers quickly!

Hallsthirdacre~ Nice job :thumb:


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## Happeesupermom (Oct 3, 2013)

Thank you all. 

A goat friend of mine called me tonight & asked if I'd like Buttercup to surrogate feed a kid that was born last week. She'll bring him over in the morning and I'll keep an eye out for Buttercup to accept him. I think it'll help her not feel too lonely. 

Oh, I know some people say that animals don't have feelings. I think they may not feel things exactly like we do, but I think she "feels" the loss somehow. 

And it may be unpopular (or even a little "crazy") but I talk to my animals. All throughout today's ordeal I would talk to Buttercup while patting her neck or scratching her ears (which she only likes some times). 
"I know it hurts, Girl, but you're doing good."
"You can do it, Buttercup!"
" You're going to be OK, Buttercup..."

A friend of mine would call me "The Crazy Chicken Lady"when I still had my flock because I would pick them up (even the rooster) and talk to them when I'd bring them treats or gather eggs. 

I talk to all my animals (chickens, goats, dogs). I say goodbye when I leave & hello when I get home. I talk to them when I'm working outside. I even "Maaaaaa!" back at the goats when they "say" something.  

I know, when the time comes to make chicken soup or "cabrito", I'll do what I gotta do. But I respect the life of each animal because I think it's the right thing to do. 

They're more than just livestock to me, they're my feathered & furry friends. And I do what I can to comfort & encourage each life. ;-) 

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## Happeesupermom (Oct 3, 2013)

Oh.... And some of you may be wondering how I managed to get locked out of my house & car today. Well, during one of the back & forth trips into the house & back out to the shed, my 3 year old locked the door! Of course, I had left my purse with all my keys inside. So my three Boys & I were locked out during this ordeal while we waited for my dad to come over with the spare key (which took a few hours because he had jury duty at the county courthouse). 

While we were out there, my 5 year old says, "Mama, we should pray." 

I said, "OK, Dear, let's pray." So we prayed for Buttercup & her baby (she wasn't born yet), and for us to stay warm out there. (It was 33 degrees out there today! Yikes!) 

My 12 year old is learning so much & he's such a good Helper to me! He helped my bury the doeling this evening & brought extra hay from the neighbor when we needed more today. 

I know we're gonna be OK. It's just a little discouraging when bad stuff keeps happening around here. :'( 

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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Happeesupermom said:


> Oh, I know some people say that animals don't have feelings. I think they may not feel things exactly like we do, but I think she "feels" the loss somehow.
> 
> And it may be unpopular (or even a little "crazy") but I talk to my animals. All throughout today's ordeal I would talk to Buttercup while patting her neck or scratching her ears (which she only likes some times).
> 
> I talk to all my animals (chickens, goats, dogs). I say goodbye when I leave & hello when I get home. I talk to them when I'm working outside. I even "Maaaaaa!" back at the goats when they "say" something.


Any one who say's animals don't have feelings have never had animals. You better believe she knows she had a kid and she also knows that her kid is not there. Granted - a lot of it is instinct, but I don't think that can account for all of it. My doe Fancy lost her kids to freezing this January. Every time a doe kidded and the kids cried Fancy would come running. This went on for about 2 weeks and it was very difficult to watch. If it's 'unpopular' to talk to your animals, then I'm also 'unpopular' because I talk to mine, too. Hell, I carry on conversations with mine. A side effect of living alone, I suppose. :laugh: I've always figured that people have the capability of thought and conscience decision making - animals don't. They are stuck with what they get - good, bad, or indifferent. If you can't feel compassion for a dumb(as in inability to speak - not mental acuity) animal then what good are you to the human race?


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Animals may not understand our language, but they can certainly pick up on our tone, our mood and our posture...so it's real communication for sure. I bet your doe takes right to raising that lil' kid goat too. As soon as it warms up and you're restarting your garden and raising new chicks and out there with your face pressed into that girls side filling the milk pail, things will start to seem right again. Spring has a way of healing us all. 

And I know about frantic...I mean I prepare obsessively...have an organized med cabinet, a table with all medicines, their doses and what they treat, a kid positioning chart in my kidding box...and I STILL need someone to calm me down and walk me through whenever there's an emergency...It's hard to get that clear head. I even try to make it so I don't have to think...at kidding time, as soon as a doe's water breaks or she's really active, I set a timer for 30 minutes. If that timer goes off and there's no kids, it's time for me to go scrub up and go in to check things out. That way I can't talk myself out of it...A second timer gets set for 30 minutes. If I haven't sorted it out, the vet gets called. Haven't had to use that rule yet, but I will follow it when the time comes. that way...at least SOME of the decisions are made before there's an issue, lol...cuz I'm really good at talking myself out of "bothering" anyone...

You did good


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## Happeesupermom (Oct 3, 2013)

hallsthirdacrefarm said:


> I bet your doe takes right to raising that lil' kid goat too. As soon as it warms up and you're restarting your garden and raising new chicks and out there with your face pressed into that girls side filling the milk pail, things will start to seem right again. Spring has a way of healing us all.


Thank you. I believe you're right. Come Spring, things will start to look up. I'm sowing seeds indoors right now. Can't wait to see the first tiny green sprouts!



hallsthirdacrefarm said:


> And I know about frantic...I mean I prepare obsessively...have an organized med cabinet, a table with all medicines, their doses and what they treat, a kid positioning chart in my kidding box...and I STILL need someone to calm me down and walk me through whenever there's an emergency...It's hard to get that clear head. I even try to make it so I don't have to think...at kidding time, as soon as a doe's water breaks or she's really active, I set a timer for 30 minutes. If that timer goes off and there's no kids, it's time for me to go scrub up and go in to check things out. That way I can't talk myself out of it...A second timer gets set for 30 minutes. If I haven't sorted it out, the vet gets called. Haven't had to use that rule yet, but I will follow it when the time comes. that way...at least SOME of the decisions are made before there's an issue, lol...cuz I'm really good at talking myself out of "bothering" anyone...
> 
> You did good


You've got a good system in place. I need to do something like that, I think. If I have as many decisions made ahead of time, it'll keep panic to a minimum. Thanks for the ideas! 

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## Happeesupermom (Oct 3, 2013)

MsScamp said:


> You better believe she knows she had a kid and she also knows that her kid is not there. Granted - a lot of it is instinct, but I don't think that can account for all of it.


I believe you're right.



MsScamp said:


> If it's 'unpopular' to talk to your animals, then I'm also 'unpopular' because I talk to mine, too. Hell, I carry on conversations with mine.


Yeah. I do that, too! LOL

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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Make that a third "unpopular" here  They haven't spoken back ....yet :lol:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Ha, mine talk to me all the time. I speak animal much better then person. I have a spare key on one of my animals collar, anyone of you are welcome to try and get it but, it's only for family


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## Happeesupermom (Oct 3, 2013)

Goathiker- that's a good idea! ;-) 

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## PantoneH (Nov 21, 2013)

Dont feel bad. When i had breached twins in my pregnant doe.... Thefirst goat i started with and hence my most loved and FAVORITE goat in the world, i had to go in, an for a terrifying moment i thought i was going to lose her. So i had to go in she screamed and screamed...and screamed and i cried and cried and cried like a four year old girl bc i KNEW i was hurting her  (i have BIG hands LONG fingers) the person that said theyd help went to the beach right after i told them hours ago that he was fixig to have to come help me. I talk to all of my goats. Theyre ALL my children.  so i know how you feel. You did the best you could with the presented situation. And yes, goats do get deppressed and feel actual kid loss. I had a friend that lost triplets.... And they brough her to my place when i had an orphan lamb and she readily took him under her hoof and took care of him like her own.  they cry for their babies too just like we do.


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## PantoneH (Nov 21, 2013)

And whoever said that goats dont have emotions never had animas or were raised pretty close minded. They all have feelings. I got fudge after i had a still birth back in 2009. Full term no problems. The reason i suddenly wound up with TEN goats now in 2014 is bc i am a goat hoarder LOL theyre VERY. Theraputic for me. Especially when theres babies in the spring.  i just love love love having to play surrigate mommy when needed or goat doctor when needed.  and you can just SEE it when you provide attention, love, and medical needs or food that your goats TRULLY appreciate it by the way they rub on you ask for a scritchy scratch or like fudge, my new mommy goat, lets me milk her doesnt even kick or nothing stands patient as ever for the twenty minute massage with warm udder smooth cream <3
Goats are just like dogs.  theyre amazing animals. I dont think ill ever NOT have one.


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## Wlschwallenberg (Jan 4, 2013)

Happeesupermom said:


> Thank you all.
> 
> A goat friend of mine called me tonight & asked if I'd like Buttercup to surrogate feed a kid that was born last week. She'll bring him over in the morning and I'll keep an eye out for Buttercup to accept him. I think it'll help her not feel too lonely.
> 
> ...


I totally talk to my animals! When a doe is kidding I give words of encouragement and congratulate her on a job well done. And when I gather eggs I thank my chickens. They deserve it! 

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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

How can you not talk to animals! They loved to be talked to.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Ok, when we first got all our animals I would do chores at night and tell each of the species "good-night". As in: Goodnight goats. Goodnight ducks. Goodnight chickies. Etc. The WILD turkeys that roosted in our trees started gobbling every night that I would do this...I started telling THEM good night too...you know...Goodnight Wild Turkeys. As soon as I would say that...they would settle down and get quiet. LOL But they would keep up the "chatter" until I specifically mentioned THEM!


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

NyGoatMom said:


> Make that a third "unpopular" here  They haven't spoken back ....yet :lol:


I have several that will 'talk' back to me. I also have a few that will run up to me or run to the gate when they hear my front door open and talk when something is wrong - usually their kids have escaped and they can't find them. Ebbie is a tattle tale, too. Being a bottle baby she is fairly timid, and she will run to the fence of the pen I'm feeding and 'tell' me when the other girls aren't letting her in to eat. :laugh:


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

kccjer said:


> Ok, when we first got all our animals I would do chores at night and tell each of the species "good-night". As in: Goodnight goats. Goodnight ducks. Goodnight chickies. Etc. The WILD turkeys that roosted in our trees started gobbling every night that I would do this...I started telling THEM good night too...you know...Goodnight Wild Turkeys. As soon as I would say that...they would settle down and get quiet. LOL But they would keep up the "chatter" until I specifically mentioned THEM!


That is too funny! :ROFL: :ROFL: They didn't like being left out!


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