# Are we selenium deficient



## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

We have had trouble the last two years with getting pregnant, aborted babies, and hard to walk babies. Here are some of the mothers tails . We usually give them a selenium shot 1 month before they deliver. That's maybe that's not enough.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

Another


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, definitely. They need supplementation immediately, Like I mean Right Now. What is your normal loose mineral mix?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes you need Bo-Se multiple times per year for sure


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Do you ever have issues with low milk supply? That can also be a problem


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

We keep loose mineral out year-round but the goats got in there and ate the package so I don't know what it says for selenium.

We have had those that didn't have milk when the kids were born but they get it immediately all the others have tons of milk.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

How soon after a shot of Bose can I give them another one?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

gwith said:


> I don't know what it says for selenium.


That's fine. If you tell us what it is that you give, we can help with the ingredients and the analysis, so this does not keep happening to you. It is always best to do routine nutrition through the digestive system rather than the bloodstream.


gwith said:


> How soon after a shot of Bose can I give them another one?


I don't rely on Bo-Se for routine supplementation, but for an emergency treatment. So I don't really know. I'll try to find out, or others more familiar with Bo-Se will chime in.

I have been told that there is not enough Vitamin E in the injection, so a soft gel of E should also be given when you give a shot.

So what is your normal mineral mix?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

gwith said:


> How soon after a shot of Bose can I give them another one?


I don't know that there is an answer to this. In my opinion, I would say if they still look like that 2 months after a Bo-Se injection, then it's time for another.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

This is all that is left of the current bag I'm on. I buy it at 2 places. It is two different loose minerals. both are goat loose minerals. One I buy at the feed store, the other at the feed mill.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

It's probably Sweetlix Meat Maker but all the Sweetlix bags are the same so it could be one of their other formulas.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I agree. It is one of the Sweetlix bags, but can't tell which one.
Thank you @gwith


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@gwith You may be living with an environment heavy in antagonists and so need more supplementation.

My goats have this same problem, a LOT of antagonists that you have to find a way to feed enough selenium to overcome the antagonists. Can you order Replamin Gel Plus? If you can, I'd order the large tubes (300 cc) and the applicator gun and at the very least load up your pregnant girls.

Here's the Replamin
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/replamin-gel-plus
Here's the gun
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/applicator-gun

The way it is usually used is 5 cc per goat per day for 5 days and then once per week.

Iron and sulfur are both antagonists, and I think calcium is too. Where do your goats get their water? Is it heavy in iron and/or lime? Do you have sulphur wells in your area?

Often when people start being able to use rain water or filtered water, mineral issues start to disappear.

Are there many sulphates in their feed? Do you feed a lot of alfalfa?

These are just some questions to get you started. You already have experienced some difficulties with selenium deficiency. That's how it started with me.

At first it wasn't so bad, and it got worse and worse, and finally it broke into my thick skull, "No, this isn't right. I should not be making leg splints out of PVC so they can walk and keeping hold of them for the next batch, like it is a normal thing. I should not be having to use my teeth to tear open amniotic sacks. No, Suckling is a normal response, it should not be cause for rejoicing when a kid is strong enough to latch on. This just isn't right."

Yes, I was giving good minerals the whole time. I was giving more and more and more gel. I wasn't ignoring their health.

So I got serious about learning what was going wrong. And I'm still learning.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

Their water comes from one of our wells. It appears to be full of iron because all the insides of the PVC pipes are always rust-colored. If I let the water sit for a while in a pipe it will come out rust. Our water is also really hard . I do feed quite a bit of alfalfa but usually around kidding time.


What PPM should I be looking for of selenium in my loose mineral?

Will that selenium gel be continued weekly forever?

I just ordered 2-300cc tubes and the gun.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

This article about a wet year and deficiencies could help in the coming spring and summer. It may be what people are having problems with now.
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/hayandforage06.html


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

After one horrific selenium deficient kidding season (kids born so weak they died within minutes) I had to really up my selenium game as well. With 15-20 breeding animals, not all super tame, I found Replamin Plus to be too labor intensive. I got a script from my vet for MultiMin90 injections instead.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

How do you use Multimin90?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Multimin is an injection, like Bo-Se, @gwith, except with more minerals involved.
I don't know if you would keep doing the Replamin every week or not. I was saying this could at least save your kidding season, WHILE exploring and finding a more permanent solution.

One thing that really helped me is combining 4 parts Kelp (which is attractive to goats but is low in Selenium) with 1 part cracked or ground flaxseed OR linseed meal (high in Selenium) The kelp seems to regulate the intake of the flaxseed.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I've been using purina wind and rain free choice along with the selenium vitamin e paste monthly. I also throw in a human vitamin e capsule into their goat chow grain a couple times a week too. I'm not far from gwith and the water out here is calcium and iron heavy. I tried Cargill but my goats wouldn't touch it. So far this combination seems to be working. I don't know what else to offer in the way of advice.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

We have been raising goats for about 8 years and this has never happened before.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

gwith said:


> We have been raising goats for about 8 years and *this* has never happened before.


I'm sorry, WHAT has never happened before? I've lost the plot.


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## Island Milker (Dec 11, 2018)

GoofyGoat said:


> I also throw in a human vitamin e capsule into their goat chow grain a couple times a week too.


This is what i am going to be starting to do in a few weeks as my goat is due end of march/first week of april. Ive fed her a few so far and there is no problem putting them into there grain. No need to break it up or anything.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

mariarose said:


> I'm sorry, WHAT has never happened before? I've lost the plot.


From the first post: Aborted babies, hard to walk babies, etc...


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Oh, yes. Sorry. Yes, as I said, selenium deficiencies are cumulative and they will get worse from now on.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

I believe in minerals you want the selenium ppm to be 0.10-0.30. I got that out of Sheep and Goat medicine by D.G. Pugh.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The ppm of selenium in my mineral mix is *80 *and the selenium ppm of most mineral mixes I've seen is between *25-50*. The recommended daily amount for maintenance is *.70*. Are you certain you read that correctly, @Nigerian dwarf goat? I'm not saying you read incorrectly, just maybe what Pugh (highly respected!) was talking about a different measurement? And maybe we are getting it confused with our common numbers?


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

That is what my book says.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

gwith said:


> We have been raising goats for about 8 years and this has never happened before.


It happened for me about 6 years into raising goats. There are just so many factors that play into it.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Selenium / vitamin e gel is great too. But I would give BoSe first then start giving vitamin e / selenium gel. You can get it at Tractor supply.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> View attachment 145573
> 
> That is what my book says.


Maybe that is outdated? Look at copper in that table.


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## Island Milker (Dec 11, 2018)

Does the book say this is the daily amount or what our loose minerals should contain. All that is is a table with some numbers on it. I am not seeing if its daily requirements or if my bag of minerals should reflect this table. Can you please describe more about what the page says?


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Ok, so I will type up the "Minerals" Section

Clinicians generally consider seven macrominerals and eight microminerals when assessing mineral nutrition for sheep and goats (table 2-4 which is the table i posted on here) The designations _macro _and _micro _don not reflect the minerals relative importance, but rather the amount of each that is required as a portion of the diet. Macrominerals are usually expressed as percentages of the diet, whereas micromineral needs are generally expressed as ppm or mg/kg.The seven commonly assessed macrominerals are calcium, phosphorus, sodium, 
chlorine, magnesium, potassium, and sulfur. The eight microminerals are copper, molybdenum, cobalt, iron, iodine, zinc, manganese, and selenium.Trace minerals deficiency is less common than energy, protein, or macromineral deficiency. They occur slowly overtime and rarely cause dramatic effects of productivity and body condition seen in protein deficiency. In some cases of mineral deficiency a liver biopsy is the diagnostic tool of choice.
Mineral requirements of sheep and goats


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

okay, so reading it over again it says:
The designations _macro _and_ micro _do not reflect the minerals relative importance, but rather the amount each is required as a portion of the diet. 
I am sorry if I was unclear.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Here is what the book says on selenium.
The absorption of selenium from the small intestine is enhanced by adequate diatary levels of vitamin e and A and histidine. Large dietary levels of arsenic, calcium, vitamin C, copper, nitrites, sulfates, and unsaturated fats inhibit selenium absorption. Legumes are usually better sources of selenium than are grasses, which in turn, are superior cereal grains.
The signs of selenium deficiency include nutritional muscular dystrophy, particularly of the skeletal and cardiac muscles of fast growing kids, and retained placentas. Signs indicated with insufficient selenium include poor growth, weak or premature kids, depressed immune function, mastitis, and metritis. Most often selenium deficiency is observed in lambs between birth and 8 weeks of age. Serum selenium concentrates are difficult to interpret because they may reflect the dietary intake in the past 2 to 4 weeks. Whole blood selenium over the past 100 plus days. Diets containing 0.10 to 0.30 ppm are usually adequate. 0.30 ppm should be fed during the final trimester of pregnancy. Mineral salt mixes should contain between 24 and 90 ppm selenium in deficient regions.

Gees that took a long time lol!!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

It is the the amount each is required as a portion of the diet.:cow:


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Thank you for typing all of that out @Nigerian dwarf goat .


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

So, we, are adding more copper and calcium than we actually need for the goats to live. For one reason or another. And the iron in my water,calcium in my water, the little bit more calcium I try to insure my weathers get, along with a couple of other micro and macro nutrients contribute to my goats having a selenium deficiency since my selenium is .20ppm. Right?


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

0.20 is good, because 0.30 is the max, and it should be fed during the last trimester of pregnancy to prevent weak kids, retained placenta etc etc...


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

Our goat's feed has a max amount of selenium of 0.32 PPM

I am not sure about our loose minerals.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> It is the the amount each is required as a portion of the diet.:cow:





gwith said:


> Our goat's feed has a max amount of selenium of 0.32 PPM
> 
> I am not sure about our loose minerals.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

We got the Replamin in the mail yesterday. That wasn't fun. I only gave it to 14 does yesterday. How do you know when you dispensed 5cc? I don't think I want to keep this up weekly. We have an average of 35 goats at a time.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

If you have the metal dosing gun - there is a pin that holds the dose at 5 or 10 mL near the handle. The measurement is engraved in the metal, the pin has to be pushed all the way through the handle to dispense the right amount.

Replamin is a tough solution for larger herds.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

Thanks. I was wondering what that pin was for.


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

That was so much easier. We did 20 tonight.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't use it every week on my herd either, just to help someone get a needed boost.

LOL, yes, the pin is vital. Don't lose it.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Has anyone ever drilled a 2.5cc pin hole for NDs or Pygmys?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

John, I may be super tired, but that does not compute for me. Are you asking about drilling a different hole in the gun for a Dwarf?

If you are, then 1 option is to use the 5ml but double the time. For instance, in the load up week, instead of 2.5 ml every day for 5 days, you can do 5 ml every other day for a week then do 5 ml every other week instead of 2,5 ml every week.

Another option you have is to fill syringes up that you can then use every day or every week. OR you can use empty wormer tubes or emply selenium/vitamin E tubes, or empty Probios tubes, etc, etc, etc.

If this is NOT what you are asking, then, I'm just super tired and please forgive me. Try again.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

mariarose said:


> John, I may be super tired, but that does not compute for me. Are you asking about drilling a different hole in the gun for a Dwarf?
> 
> If you are, then 1 option is to use the 5ml but double the time. For instance, in the load up week, instead of 2.5 ml every day for 5 days, you can do 5 ml every other day for a week then do 5 ml every other week instead of 2,5 ml every week.
> 
> ...


LOL You have it right. I tried the smaller syringe, couldn't get it right
I was thinking about the doubling time, just wasn't sure if too much, less often was okay.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Dwarf Dad said:


> LOL You have it right. I tried the smaller syringe, couldn't get it right
> I was thinking about the doubling time, just wasn't sure if too much, less often was okay.


Skipping the time and doubling the amount, is fine. 5 ml every other week, instead of 2.5 ml every week, is just fine.

Or you can order the smaller 80 ml tube is fine also.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Or you can order the smaller 80 ml tube is fine also.


Not economically feasible.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Dwarf Dad said:


> Not economically feasible.


The 80 ml is a lot more expensive over all than the 300 ml, that's for sure.

But after. you do have the tubes to refill, so it might be worth it in the long run...


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## Mickey6769 (Feb 13, 2019)

mariarose said:


> That's fine. If you tell us what it is that you give, we can help with the ingredients and the analysis, so this does not keep happening to you. It is always best to do routine nutrition through the digestive system rather than the bloodstream.
> 
> I don't rely on Bo-Se for routine supplementation, but for an emergency treatment. So I don't really know. I'll try to find out, or others more familiar with Bo-Se will chime in.
> 
> ...


I think I may have the same issue. I just posted about low milk. I have been using manna pro( was not sure where to get anything else better?) It is 12 rpm selenium. Also can you just give the soft gel to them whole, or break open and put on/in food?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Mickey6769 said:


> I have been using manna pro( was not sure where to get anything else better?)


If we know what your other options are, we can help with suggestions. There is a bewildering array, I know. What stores do you have available to you? We can start there. There are many mineral mixes that people like but they aren't all available everywhere. In the mean time, keep giving the Manna Pro, as it is certainly better than not having any.


Mickey6769 said:


> can you just give the soft gel to them whole, or break open and put on/in food?


If you are referring to the soft gel of Vitamin E to be given with a Bo-Se injection, I'd just poke it down her throat, but do what makes you happy.


Mickey6769 said:


> I just posted about low milk.


Selenium is associated with low milk production, but so are many other things.


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