# My Breeding Experiements and Their Results



## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

*My Breeding Experiments and Their Results*

I was perusing the forum last fall and I came across some very interesting breeding strategies - I thought I would share my results. 

The first strategy was feed flushing. For the two weeks leading up to breeding time, I fed all my girls extra grain - Purina goat chow, to be specific. The goal here is to increase the number of kids each girl has. This sounded very logical, and I was excited to try it out. 

The second strategy was a way that was supposed to make the does have more doelings - put apple cider vinegar in the water during breeding time. The idea was to increase the acidity of the doe, which would make a better environment for female embryos to implant. This sounded like an old wives' tale to me, but I wanted to find out!

Here are my results:


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

My conclusions: 

I can say with reasonable certainty that feed flushing works wonders! Three out of six of my does had quadruplets! Incidentally, these three does were also the only three of my goats who went into breeding season (for one reason or another) a little overweight. I am without a doubt feed flushing again next year, and I think I'll feed them more grain during the flush and maybe for a whole month before breeding time - the correlation between overweight and quadruplets seems to suggest they needed even more food to get more babies. My first doe to kid, Lacey, kind of throws a wrench into the whole theory - she's the only one who had fewer kids than last year. But, the other five does are a total success story. 

As for the "old wives' tale": my overall ratio between bucklings and doelings is 7:13, almost two to one in the doelings' favor. I think another year or two of the apple cider vinegar thing is needed to determine anything conclusive, but the evidence this year seems to suggest it might actually do something! I'm going to try this again next year, and see if the results are the same. 

Well, I just wanted to share! I find all of this pretty fascinating, and I thought maybe someone would like to try some of these strategies with their own goats, too.


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## Rise_and_Shine_Ranch (May 16, 2015)

That's really cool! Thanks for sharing! I am definitely going to try that this fall.


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## FascinatingLady (Mar 6, 2016)

What ratio of Apple cider do you use? I don't know if my does like it. Seems they drink less when I use it. Would it still work if I give it year round? I read 1 cup for 20 goats per day, but with 1 adult and 6 1-4 month old kids I am not sure. Wish it was how much to add per gallon.


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

I always used to use ACV in the water for my rabbits, and I loved it! It masked the flavor of the water so that when I went away to large shows for a week or two, as long as I put ACV in the water, they drank it just as fine as normal, instead of going on water-strike for a day or two after switching from well water to city water at shows.

It's supposed to also help get does "in the mood", though I never heard about any conclusive evidence for increasing your chances of does, though I never paid any attention since they have so many kits per litter and many more litters per year than a goat anyway that you don't usually have to worry about having a litter of all bucks lol.

I've never used with goats though, but I think I may have to try it out this fall too! Dilution with rabbits was 2 tbsp. per gallon of water, is it the same for goats?


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

I never really measured how much vinegar I put in - probably 1, 1 and a half tablespoons for a two gallon bucket. If I put too much they don't like it, but if there's just a little they don't mind. They would try and lick the vinegar out of the bottle.


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

That's very interesting. I'm not really wanting more than twins from each of my goats, but I think most everyone wants more girls. 

Did you use the same buck this year as last? Some people think he will influence the number of girls as well. 

I'm definitely going to start adding a little ACV to the water regardless. I feel it has other health benefits as well. I always add a little to water or juice for myself if I'm starting to get sick.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

That's very interesting!
Thanks for sharing I had been planning to try flushing, good to hear it worked for you!
I may try the ACV too


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

I used the same buck as last year, but I only owned two of my does last year - May and Rose. All the others who kidded last year did so at other farms. My buck was a single kid, two years old this spring, and last year he sired all bucklings.

I went into this season thinking, "More the merrier!" but I did come to the point with my first freshener, Daisy, that as she was kidding I was thinking, "Oh no, she might have 4 in there..." 
May milked a quart a day as a first freshener and she's an awesome momma so I have no worries with her quadruplets. Goldie is doing great, too - and fortunately, so is Daisy! I am continually impressed by how they care for their babies - without my help, even.


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

ACV is something my goats love. I always put it in one of the bucket and leave a plain water bucket also -it is always the one with the ACV that is drained first. My boys always get it also and love it. The same - they have a choice w/2 buckets. Suppose to help with UC and I have never had that happen. I put a healthy big slug of ACV in a bucket -no measure.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I use acv year 'round. This year Annika gave me 3 bucks and 1 doe. So I'm not sure it works for making doe babies, but it's good for the goats, so I'll keep giving it.

I've tried flushing, but my does don't always cooperate. I give more grain and they just leave it in the pan. Goofy goats!


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## Nab58 (May 8, 2016)

Do you use raw ACV (with the 'mother'?)


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Flushing increasing does Apple cider vinegar ACV*



ShireRidgeFarm said:


> I was perusing the forum last fall and I came across some very interesting breeding strategies - I thought I would share my results.
> 
> The first strategy was feed flushing. For the two weeks leading up to breeding time, I fed all my girls extra grain - Purina goat chow, to be specific. The goal here is to increase the number of kids each girl has. This sounded very logical, and I was excited to try it out.
> 
> ...


Fascinating! I just read a similar story/test for lambs/sheep online a few days ago! The claim was a higher ratio of females due to ACV. Also reducing white muscle disease in lambs...

We have used ACV for our chickens and ducks and love it! Number one is keeping the water and containers cleaner! Yeah!

Yes, with the mother on the kind.

However with the pigs, and some of outdoor water we will use the regular ACV...mainly for cleaner containers and less bugs attracted to it!

Also, have tested it with the lambs, about a teaspoon per gallon and they prefer the vinegar water over plain. Sometimes we don't measure and more goes in, but they prefer it.
Haven't tried the feeding you mentioned, but we are changing our feed program currently.


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

Nab58 said:


> Do you use raw ACV (with the 'mother'?)


 Yep. I got some Kroger's brand apple cider vinegar and just dumped some in the water for as long as anyone was in heat (about a month). I haven't given the girls vinegar since.

I started giving my boys some apple cider vinegar at the same time, and I haven't stopped. Not sure if that effects anything or not.


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

groovyoldlady said:


> I use acv year 'round. This year Annika gave me 3 bucks and 1 doe. So I'm not sure it works for making doe babies, but it's good for the goats, so I'll keep giving it.
> 
> I've tried flushing, but my does don't always cooperate. I give more grain and they just leave it in the pan. Goofy goats!


 Have you tried giving them a different grain? When I first started out, I fed my girls dumor goat feed because it was cheaper. When they were nursing kids I switched them to the purina goat chow because it has more protein. Now, if I give them the dumor stuff they just kind of look at me and ask, "Where's the good stuff?"  They loved the dumor feed before they tasted purina, now they won't go back.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

ShireRidgeFarm said:


> Have you tried giving them a different grain? When I first started out, I fed my girls dumor goat feed because it was cheaper. When they were nursing kids I switched them to the purina goat chow because it has more protein. Now, if I give them the dumor stuff they just kind of look at me and ask, "Where's the good stuff?"  They loved the dumor feed before they tasted purina, now they won't go back.


That sounds like an economic plan that might have my Goat Parole Officer selling off my herd. ;-) However, I have NOT tried switching grain except for one goat who actually needed less protein when she was being milked. I'll have to try that if I attempt to flush this Fall.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Very interesting theory. I've been trying to see how I could get it to work with my own operation but I don't think it will. The ACV part anyway, I did the flushing this year and that I'm convinced does work. Last year I was 187%, this year the herd was 236%, with mostly triplets, a few twins, a quad, and one single (she always has a single though, but she's just too friendly to sell!)

I don't think it would work at my place because I have two places they get water from. The first is a automatic waterer in my barn, probably holds 2 gal tops...so if I put it in there it would probably be really strong for awhile.... 

The second spot is in my pasture. In the pasture I have a big cement basin, about 3' wide and 2' deep, that is (somehow) hooked up to an underground spring. It continually flows nonstop, always, -50 or 103 out. It's been that way for 70 years or so I'm told. Once the basin is filled it runs down a short pipe and then into a little irrigation ditch (the duck's main street, they cruise up and down it all day) and then down the hill where it eventually fizzles out in my pasture. My goal is to dam it off at the bottom of the hill to make a nice sized dam, because its a perfect spot between two hills. 

But anyway, back on track, with it just constantly flowing that one wouldn't work at all either. Rats.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Neat info/research


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

Lstein said:


> Very interesting theory. I've been trying to see how I could get it to work with my own operation but I don't think it will. The ACV part anyway, I did the flushing this year and that I'm convinced does work. Last year I was 187%, this year the herd was 236%, with mostly triplets, a few twins, a quad, and one single (she always has a single though, but she's just too friendly to sell!)
> 
> I don't think it would work at my place because I have two places they get water from. The first is a automatic waterer in my barn, probably holds 2 gal tops...so if I put it in there it would probably be really strong for awhile....
> 
> ...


 That sounds like an awesome self-sufficient watering system! But, yeah, I doubt the apple cider vinegar thing would work.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Wow! I'm on board with that! BTW-wouldn't you rather have 2 doelings than 3 bucklings anyway? I would!


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## TeyluFarm (Feb 24, 2016)

So how do you flush? How much extra grain did you give? I've also read it takes more iodine to develop a female fetus, is that right?


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

TeyluFarm said:


> So how do you flush? How much extra grain did you give? I've also read it takes more iodine to develop a female fetus, is that right?


I've never heard anything about the iodine. Maybe that's another experiment to try. 

I didn't measure my grain very officially, but I basically doubled the amount of grain that I normally give them, and once everyone was bred I went back to their normal ration. I have this little plastic container with a lid from Nesquick chocolate milk and I've used it for years to carry servings of grain around.  I gave them two containers full of grain instead of one.


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

catharina said:


> Wow! I'm on board with that! BTW-wouldn't you rather have 2 doelings than 3 bucklings anyway? I would!


Yeah, that's true! I just expected triplets out of her - she's a third freshener and she had triplets the last two times she kidded.  I can't complain, though - both of her kids had blue eyes, even though my buck has brown eyes. Statistically, one should be brown and the other blue.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

The first year I flushed I got quads. Stopped flushing after that, haha! :lol:


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

My doe, May, just rejected one of her babies today!  I guess she decided that she can't handle four kids. It's been hot out the past few days, but she's had plenty of food... Oh well, now he gets to be my first bottle-baby. A real downside to quads, though. I hope the other two with four kids decide to keep them all.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I have flushed in the past and gotten trips and quads. I would raise the grain protein % from 16 to 20, but feed the same amount. This past year I did the opposite because I didn't want a lot of kids, so I fed lower protein grain. Twins and singles. Yes!

I don't believe the AC works. I've tried it on my goats and even myself. It did nothing , I have 4 sons. 

I've noticed with my herd (after 35 years of this) that most of my bucks sired a higher % of bucks their first year of breeding. After that, they went on to have buck years and doe years, but the over all average was 49/52 or 50/50 for most. I have had some who sired 90% doelings over several years!

I did read somewhere that breeding early in their standing heat would produce more does. I started breeding some of my girls once, at the beginning of their standing heat. The results were impressive- lots of doelings! The does I bred more than once during their heat cycle or who ran with the bucks had more bucklings or buck/doe twins.


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

lottsagoats1 said:


> I have flushed in the past and gotten trips and quads. I would raise the grain protein % from 16 to 20, but feed the same amount. This past year I did the opposite because I didn't want a lot of kids, so I fed lower protein grain. Twins and singles. Yes!
> 
> I don't believe the AC works. I've tried it on my goats and even myself. It did nothing , I have 4 sons.
> 
> ...


 Very interesting, thanks for your perspective! I'll definitely keep track of my boy and girl averages over the years - based on the 2016 kidding thread this has been a doe year for most of us, so it might just be an illusion that the apple cider vinegar is working. I also wonder if it's only effective in some does - Rose I bred last year and this year to the same buck and she changed from all boys to all girls, where her twin, May, still had mostly boys.

My buck ran with my does for probably two months, so everybody probably got bred several times. The single breeding thing is a neat strategy, though! I might have to try it some time.


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

Great thread - thank you for sharing.


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## forgoatsakes (Feb 11, 2016)

How do you feed flush? Would it not make your does bloated? Very interesting!


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

forgoatsakes said:


> How do you feed flush? Would it not make your does bloated? Very interesting!


 I just fed them extra grain for the two weeks leading up to breeding time, and then went back to their normal ration after everyone was bred. I had no issues with bloat or anything like that - they weren't eating a huge amount of grain, just more than they normally get.


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## FascinatingLady (Mar 6, 2016)

I am feeding 3.33 cups sprouts 2 x day. It is only 14%. I soak 7 cups grain with 2 TBS BOSS per day and then feed any leftover to younger goats. So I would just do a double batch starting July 1st? Then hope she goes in heat the middle of July. I have never bred Alpines, but she kidded first of Feb. So hoping to breed again. After she is bred I could slowly decrease feed until it affects her milk? Would I provide extra probiotics and baking soda too?


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

FascinatingLady said:


> I am feeding 3.33 cups sprouts 2 x day. It is only 14%. I soak 7 cups grain with 2 TBS BOSS per day and then feed any leftover to younger goats. So I would just do a double batch starting July 1st? Then hope she goes in heat the middle of July. I have never bred Alpines, but she kidded first of Feb. So hoping to breed again. After she is bred I could slowly decrease feed until it affects her milk? Would I provide extra probiotics and baking soda too?


I really didn't do anything fancy - I just roughly doubled the amount of grain. If you want to breed in the middle of July, then for the first two weeks of July (maybe even the last week of June, too) give your doe about twice as much grain. (I probably wouldn't double the sunflower seeds, just the grain.) Then, once you see the buck breed your doe you can put her back to her normal food ration. 
The idea is to get the doe's body to think, "Oh, there's a lot of food around right now so I bet I can feed a lot of babies."  No need for extra baking soda or probiotics or anything.


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

I was just looking back at my records and realized I mixed up the number and genders of the kids two of my does had last year! :doh:I corrected the table on my original post. And actually, the corrected results support the effectiveness of these strategies even more! All of my goats had more doelings than last year, or they had no change.

Ava is the only goat to have no change in both quantity and gender. She came to me very, very skinny and although I fed her a lot of extra food, she's just now finally getting her conditioning back. (She is the most timid goat in my herd, almost too timid for her own good. Not that she's scared, but she doesn't stand up for herself.) So, she was my only goat to go into the breeding season _under_weight, and it makes sense that the feed flushing would only maintain her previous kidding numbers, and not increase them.


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