# Bitter milk and copper



## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Hey guys! My girl Helga kidded 3 weeks ago. I have started separating at night and milking some in the morning. But... Her milk is bitter. Like nasty nasty bitter aftertaste. 

I have searched through forums and think it might be a copper issue. I did give her a bolus about 3 months ago, but she chewed it and I think lost some of the rods. I didn't want to OD her, so I didn't give her another. She has no other signs of copper deficiency, so I am nervous to give her another. 

I also read on the forums it could be a worm load, so I did deworm (ivermectin paste) her 4 days ago and gave her a shot of B complex. She has no symptoms of mastitis and I did the soap test with negative results. 

Milk doesn't smell weird and looks nice a white. 

So my question is, could this still be colostrum (3 weeks post delivery) and I should wait awhile before milking her? Or is it safe to give her another copper bolus?

PS... Her kids started drinking from my other Doe whose baby has been weaned. They empty both Does thoroughly, and leave no milk for me at night.


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## Boadicea (9 mo ago)

I had a doe who had colostrum in her milk for what seemed like forever! It took her maybe 6 weeks before her milk tasted good. And like yours- no signs of mastitis (tested neg for it), no heat, no hardness to udder). I know some does just produce a lot of colostrum. It’s rare but does happen. However, I’ve also heard it can be from mineral deficiency so, who knows?!?! Best of luck! At least those babies are staying healthy! Lol!


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Boadicea said:


> I had a doe who had colostrum in her milk for what seemed like forever! It took her maybe 6 weeks before her milk tasted good. And like yours- no signs of mastitis (tested neg for it), no heat, no hardness to udder). I know some does just produce a lot of colostrum. It’s rare but does happen. However, I’ve also heard it can be from mineral deficiency so, who knows?!?! Best of luck! At least those babies are staying healthy! Lol!


Well its good to know it could be colostrum! She gets Calf Manna in her ration and free choice minerals and baking soda. Plus the Copper Bolus I gave her 3 months ago (they are supposed to be good for 8mo-1yr). She gets the same feed as my other doe and is her full blood twin, so i would think same genetics. I hope its just colostrum!


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

I have seen off tasting milk be linked to copper deficiency in my own girls. Cobalt deficiency can also cause those issues.
If I suspect copper may be the cause, I will just give 1 gram or so. That will usually improve milk flavor within a few days, if that's the issue. However, I usually dose less than the recommended 1 gram per 22 lbs. bodyweight when copper bolusing, so giving a little dab here or there isn't likely to cause an overdose in my girls. I certainly wouldn't want you to overdose your doe by mistake!
Their feed can also affect the milk taste. Sometimes weeds will flavor milk, or if they're not getting enough fat in their diet, the milk won't be as sweet. 
It would probably be a good idea to invest in a California mastitis test kit. They are not expensive, and then you can quickly test your does yourself if you suspect there may be an issue.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> I have seen off tasting milk be linked to copper deficiency in my own girls. Cobalt deficiency can also cause those issues.
> If I suspect copper may be the cause, I will just give 1 gram or so. That will usually improve milk flavor within a few days, if that's the issue. However, I usually dose less than the recommended 1 gram per 22 lbs. bodyweight when copper bolusing, so giving a little dab here or there isn't likely to cause an overdose in my girls. I certainly wouldn't want you to overdose your doe by mistake!
> Their feed can also affect the milk taste. Sometimes weeds will flavor milk, or if they're not getting enough fat in their diet, the milk won't be as sweet.
> It would probably be a good idea to invest in a California mastitis test kit. They are not expensive, and then you can quickly test your does yourself if you suspect there may be an issue.


Thank you for the information! I'll look into a kit.
As for weeds, both Does have access to the same range, I do notice my Helga eats more of the burdock.. or at least I notice her eating more than her sister. Her sisters milk has been sweet, creamy, and delicious from day one (I started milking her at 2 weeks post kidding also). 

I'll maybe pen up Helga and just feed her hay for awhile and see if flavor improves, before trying to give her more copper. I don't know exactly how much she got from the bolus since she chewed it 😑, and I don't want to take a chance. How long will it take to notice a change if it is the feed?

Or I'll just wait another week and try again, Incase it's still colostrum... Ugh... Dang these goats 😂


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I have a doe who has funky tasting milk each year when she freshens, she's always been mastitis free. Every time it has happened she also has been coincidentally due for copper, so I give it to her and after a few weeks that clears it up. Next year I'm going to try to be better about keeping her copper levels up so that I know if it's that or just something that happens every time she freshens. I hope your girl straightens out for you soon! Yucky milk is no fun! 😝


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

MellonFriend said:


> I have a doe who has funky tasting milk each year when she freshens, she's always been mastitis free. Every time it has happened she also has been coincidentally due for copper, so I give it to her and after a few weeks that clears it up. Next year I'm going to try to be better about keeping her copper levels up so that I know if it's that or just something that happens every time she freshens. I hope your girl straightens out for you soon! Yucky milk is no fun! 😝


Do you know if it's safe to give her more copper? I tried her milk again today and still no improvement. 🤮


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It would be fine to give copper.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

ksalvagno said:


> It would be fine to give copper.


Should I give her a whole bolus (4g) or just a small amount? Thanks!


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

To add to this, she is 120lbs and hasn't fully shed her winter coat like my other two adults have. She is sorta wirey, but I figured her delay in shedding was from kidding. Idk... Lol, I am totally new at this and doing my best to figure it out. I appreciate all your help!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'd give her the full amount.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Three months is a perfect amount of time to wait. You can absolutely give her the full amount, in fact if you want to be even more accurate you can open the bolus and measure out 1 grams per 22lbs of body weight. I dose my goats every three months consistently. It might take a few weeks after you give her the copper for her milk to taste right, just preparing you. I think it was about two for my girl.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

In answer to your question about the weeds: I have found that milk flavor usually goes back to normal within a day or two after a diet change.
But I agree with the copper. I think that would be a good place to start. The fact that her hair is wirey and she isn't shedding out points to copper deficiency. Kidding can take a lot out of a doe, and I have found that some of mine require extra supplementation around kidding time to stay in good shape.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Thank you all! I am going to give her a full dose today! 🤞 This fixes it!!


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

It's been almost 3 weeks since she was bolused 4g copper. Her milk is better, but still tastes off (bitter, and 
not drinkable) . Her coat is improving but she has still not shedded completely. Her back ridge and chest are shiny and smooth, but her sides and legs are still rough and not shedded. 

I also noticed this past week her all black baby is turning red. He is almost 6 weeks old now. I know he is low on copper. I am ordering the kid bolus today.

Should I give momma another 4g bolus?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Selenium and zinc can affect it too.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

Did you bolus her with 1 gram copper per 22 lbs. bodyweight? If you gave less than that, it probably would not hurt to give her a little more. Maybe break open the bolus and give her 1 or 2 grams.
Cobalt deficiency can affect milk flavor, too. You might consider offering a cobalt block. They are not very expensive.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

Also, you might try offering a small handful of black oil sunflower seeds. Sometimes, if they are not getting enough fat in their diet, that will make the milk not taste as sweet. Make sure she is getting a good, balanced diet, too.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Three weeks is too soon to dose copper again if you gave her the proper amount. Adding more fat is a good thought. BOSS is great so is wheat germ oil. I do both. Another thing you could try is getting a cobalt block. They can be tought to locate though. I've heard that cobalt defficiency can cause bad tasting milk. Giving weekly Replamin plus gel could be something to try too. I find that is good at cleaning up unknown defficiencies. That would cover selenium at least. For her kid, you can open the adult boluses and weigh out the proper amount for him. It's the same as adults 1 gram per 22 lbs.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Go get some garlic gel caps and squeeze 3 or four on her food. It seems counter productive but it works. She also needs a cobalt block.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Thanks all! I can't find a colbalt block, so I have been giving her some nutridrench (it has selenium and colbalt), but I know that's not sustainable. I'll keep looking for a block.

She already gets about 1/8 cup of BOSS, 1 cup alfalfa pellets, 1 cup grain, and 2oz of Calf Manna daily. She has free choice goat minerals and baking soda. 
I read in another post about giving some molasses, so she has been getting about a tablespoon every few days too.

I'll look for the Replaman Gel and try some garlic pills. 

She had 4g Bolus 3 weeks ago (she weighs about 110 lbs by the weight tape) so this is a little low of a dose. I order 2g Kid bolus, they should be here tomorrow. I could give her one of those.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Oh, I also want to add I have been "clabbering" her milk for my chickens (since we wont drink it). and some days it wont clabber at all. Like almost no fat/solids or what-not in it. It says in its milk-state even 5 days later. 

Any ideas on this?


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

How much milk is she producing? She might just need more food.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> How much milk is she producing? She might just need more food.


1/2 gallon in the morning. I havent milked her at night. SO i would guess over 1 gallon a day. She gets the stuff listed above during milking. Then she gets hay and free range on 2 acres of brush all day.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Nix on the molasses. I causes copper deficiency and bitter milk, sometimes with weird clumps.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

The grain I buy has molasses in it too. Should I look for a new brand? My other Doe doesn't have any issues tho


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

My grain has molasses in it, and I don't have ongoing issues when feeding it.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

I think I have an idea, I have been reading about mineral deficiencies and I think my well water is a factor here. We have High Calcium which supposedly causing goats to be unable to absorb copper very well. I have been talking to my husband about installing a water softener, it might be time to push him again. 

In the meantime, I am going to purchase some SweetLix Meat Maker Goat Minerals. This contains Colbalt and higher selenium than my current Manna Pro brand. Every blog I have read has recommended SweetLix. What brands do you guys use?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

PurpleCArTires said:


> What brands do you guys use?


Sweetlix! It's awesome. Well water that is high in calcium is a good guess for what might be a factor here. I'm not sure, but I don't know if a softener alone would do it. I know some people have to get a Horse Hydrator filter, but I don't know if that has to do with filtering out other minerals. Let someone else chime in on that front.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

What is a Horse Hydrator? That sounds interesting.

I mostly see SweetLix and/or Wind and Rain recommended on here. I've been using Wind and Rain for a while now, but am about to switch to an individual mineral buffet, which I'm very excited about! If you're interested in looking into that, here are two great threads:

Anyone feed individual minerals - Our journey | The Goat Spot Forum 
Little Avalon Farm - mineral management and herbal remedies | The Goat Spot Forum


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Feira426 said:


> What is a Horse Hydrator? That sounds interesting.


I believe it is this Jeffers Pet | Horse Hydrator. I do not have one myself, but I've heard it talked about here on the forum. It's supposed to filter out minerals in your water and make it easier to balance your goat's mineral levels if you have a lot of things in your well water that are interfering with your goat's ability to be properly mineralized. It doesn't mention anything about calcium though, so I don't know if it would really work for the OP.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

MellonFriend said:


> I believe it is this Jeffers Pet | Horse Hydrator. I do not have one myself, but I've heard it talked about here on the forum. It's supposed to filter out minerals in your water and make it easier to balance your goat's mineral levels if you have a lot of things in your well water that are interfering with your goat's ability to be properly mineralized. It doesn't mention anything about calcium though, so I don't know if it would really work for the OP.


It looks like it filters sulfur and chlorine smells. It said "some minerals", lol so I don't think it will be worth it for me at least


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

PurpleCArTires said:


> 1/2 gallon in the morning. I havent milked her at night. SO i would guess over 1 gallon a day. She gets the stuff listed above during milking. Then she gets hay and free range on 2 acres of brush all day.


To me, the feed you're giving does not seem like much for the amount of milk she's producing. I know everyone has different opinions on this and all goats are different, too. What's her body condition like? If she's on the skinny side, you might very gradually increase her feed ration. I think that could help the milk flavor, too. I'm sure the minerals will also help with flavor and her overall condition.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> To me, the feed you're giving does not seem like much for the amount of milk she's producing. I know everyone has different opinions on this and all goats are different, too. What's her body condition like? If she's on the skinny side, you might very gradually increase her feed ration. I think that could help the milk flavor, too. I'm sure the minerals will also help with flavor and her overall condition.


I'll grab a new picture today. I think her body condition is good. She has a nice fat pad and her rumen is super full at night. No spine bumps, her hips are a little visible in the morning, but are mostly gone by evening. I don't mind increasing her feed, if she needs it, but she is definitely not starving now lol 😂.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

here are some photos from this morning.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

(Thats One of her Kids <3)


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

PurpleCArTires said:


> She already gets about 1/8 cup of BOSS, 1 cup alfalfa pellets, 1 cup grain, and 2oz of Calf Manna daily. She has free choice goat minerals and baking soda.


She gets this TWICE daily, not once a day. it ends up being about 3/4 of a folgers red coffee can full


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

PurpleCArTires said:


> She gets this TWICE daily, not once a day. it ends up being about 3/4 of a folgers red coffee can full


Oh, ok! I guess I misread your post. She does look pretty good. Definitely not starving to death. The rule of thumb I started with was 1 lb. feed for every 2 lb. milk output. But not all goats need that. I noticed with my Alpine that her milk wasn't as sweet when I started cutting back too far on her feed, so that's why I brought the feed thing up. She has a body type very similar to your doe, and is receiving about 4 lb. 14% protein feed with a sprinkle of BOSS a day, while milking about a gallon a day. 
Aside from testing her for subclinical mastitis, I am not sure what else to suggest.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> Oh, ok! I guess I misread your post. She does look pretty good. Definitely not starving to death. The rule of thumb I started with was 1 lb. feed for every 2 lb. milk output. But not all goats need that. I noticed with my Alpine that her milk wasn't as sweet when I started cutting back too far on her feed, so that's why I brought the feed thing up. She has a body type very similar to your doe, and is receiving about 4 lb. 14% protein feed with a sprinkle of BOSS a day, while milking about a gallon a day.
> Aside from testing her for subclinical mastitis, I am not sure what else to suggest.


You didn't miss read, I miss typed it originally 😊

I'll have to weight how much the food actually is. I told my husband if we can resolve this soon, we are gonna have to call in a vet to have her tested for mastis and check her mineral definicenies. If we can't drink her milk, we will be back to store bought soon since my other Doe is drying up 🤮🤣


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

PurpleCArTires said:


> You didn't miss read, I miss typed it originally 😊
> 
> I'll have to weight how much the food actually is. I told my husband if we can resolve this soon, we are gonna have to call in a vet to have her tested for mastis and check her mineral definicenies. If we can't drink her milk, we will be back to store bought soon since my other Doe is drying up 🤮🤣


I know it's so frustrating to have these sorts of problems and not be able to figure out the solution! Ruling out mastitis and mineral deficiencies by testing would be a good next step, I think.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sometimes alfalfa can make the milk taste bad.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> I believe it is this Jeffers Pet | Horse Hydrator. I do not have one myself, but I've heard it talked about here on the forum. It's supposed to filter out minerals in your water and make it easier to balance your goat's mineral levels if you have a lot of things in your well water that are interfering with your goat's ability to be properly mineralized. It doesn't mention anything about calcium though, so I don't know if it would really work for the OP.


Interesting! Looks like it filters surprisingly quickly - I wonder how it works?


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

I ended up calling in a vet. She performed blood and milk tests. Said Helga's weight, temp, Famancha, and body condition were all excellent . Milk test came back 100% clean (no bacteria growth or mastitis). Mineral panel came back normal too. She is on the higher end of Sodium and Potassium, but the vet said it's still not outside normal range. Unfortunately, my vet thinks it can only be genetics at this point. 😥.

On a side note, I bought a cream seperator and did a 1 gallon test on Helga's milk. I only got .17 fl oz from 1 gallon (really really low butterfat). This is the last option to try and fix the potential issue before culling her. Anyone have ideas how to fix low butterfat?


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

Fiber increases butterfat, so make sure she's getting plenty of long stem hay, and I add shredded beet pulp to my milker's ration.

I haven't gone back and reread the thread so apologies if it was already mentioned, but have you tried a cobalt block?


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

As my herd grows, and I define the herd goals I want to be breeding toward, I have decided that I just won't keep goats that require extraordinary effort in their care. If she were here, she would be going on to my 'phase out of the breeding program' list. You could definitely play around more with her feed, adjusting ratios, try offering more hay, etc. but only you can decide if that's worth your time. She may be eating something out in the pasture that is flavoring her milk. I've had that happen a time or two. Especially when food choices become more limited. You might consider raising a pig, bottle calf, etc. on her milk, if you're attached to her. That way she can pay for her keep, but you don't have to drink milk you don't like.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Calistar said:


> Fiber increases butterfat, so make sure she's getting plenty of long stem hay, and I add shredded beet pulp to my milker's ration.
> 
> I haven't gone back and reread the thread so apologies if it was already mentioned, but have you tried a cobalt block?


Her colbalt levels are smack dab in the middle of the normal range. I didn't buy a block, but switched her to a different loose mineral (sweet lix meat maker) a while back.

I just started adding in beet shreds. I am hoping that helps.

Another odd thing is her milk tastes awful drunk strait, but it's fine when I processed it (I made some mozzarella as a test).


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> As my herd grows, and I define the herd goals I want to be breeding toward, I have decided that I just won't keep goats that require extraordinary effort in their care. If she were here, she would be going on to my 'phase out of the breeding program' list. You could definitely play around more with her feed, adjusting ratios, try offering more hay, etc. but only you can decide if that's worth your time. She may be eating something out in the pasture that is flavoring her milk. I've had that happen a time or two. Especially when food choices become more limited. You might consider raising a pig, bottle calf, etc. on her milk, if you're attached to her. That way she can pay for her keep, but you don't have to drink milk you don't like.


I feel invested at this point. I've spent over $500 trying different feeds, vet bills, vitamins, etc. I am accepting the realization she might just have gross milk 😩. 

I am going to keep her one more season, and if this repeats next year, she will be sold as pet or meat. I love my animals, but our rule here is all the farm animals need to earn their keep. If they can't, we can't keep them around as "pets".


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

To anyone curious, Helga's milk is totally normal now!
After her doeling left, her milk taste improved significantly. I wonder if it was something in the babies saliva? IDK, but I am thankful we can use her milk now!


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## BloomfieldM (7 mo ago)

I bet she was holding milk back. I’ve read when they do that the butterfat is super low like 1 %. Now that the doeling is gone you are getting it all


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

BloomfieldM said:


> I bet she was holding milk back. I’ve read when they do that the butterfat is super low like 1 %. Now that the doeling is gone you are getting it all


I bet you are right! I would milk and milk and milk some more and she always looked/felt like she had more, I figured she had a meaty udder lol. Lately she is totally empty and super saggy after milking. it actually scared me at first, i thought my machine had popped her or something LOL


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## BloomfieldM (7 mo ago)

PurpleCArTires said:


> I bet you are right! I would milk and milk and milk some more and she always looked/felt like she had more, I figured she had a meaty udder lol. Lately she is totally empty and super saggy after milking. it actually scared me at first, i thought my machine had popped her or something LOL


Yeah my gal would be the same I thought she had a beefy udder too but I would walk away and trick her into thinking I was done milking she’d let more down and her udder would get soft


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

Interesting! That makes total sense. Glad you figured out what was going on.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

PurpleCArTires said:


> To anyone curious, Helga's milk is totally normal now!
> After her doeling left, her milk taste improved significantly. I wonder if it was something in the babies saliva? IDK, but I am thankful we can use her milk now!


Just the other day I was wondering what had happened with your doe. I'm glad she's got tasty milk now! That must be a relief!


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

MellonFriend said:


> Just the other day I was wondering what had happened with your doe. I'm glad she's got tasty milk now! That must be a relief!


Huge relief! I hope we don't have a repeat next year though! But at least I know not to milk her until after the kids leave


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## Katrina Anon (6 mo ago)

PurpleCArTires said:


> Hey guys! My girl Helga kidded 3 weeks ago. I have started separating at night and milking some in the morning. But... Her milk is bitter. Like nasty nasty bitter aftertaste.
> 
> I have searched through forums and think it might be a copper issue. I did give her a bolus about 3 months ago, but she chewed it and I think lost some of the rods. I didn't want to OD her, so I didn't give her another. She has no other signs of copper deficiency, so I am nervous to give her another.
> 
> ...


Best milking machine in the world is a kid. Mine got in the yard with the doe and in a few minutes emptied her.


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## PurpleCArTires (10 mo ago)

Katrina Anon said:


> Best milking machine in the world is a kid. Mine got in the yard with the doe and in a few minutes emptied her.


Totally! Helga's doeling would drain her and my other doe within minutes. She was a pudge ball lol.


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

Glad you figured things out and have yummy milk now- and that your machine didn’t ‘pop’ her 😅


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