# FF and a really long early labor?



## Icedangel11

Generally, my answer to 'how to help along a labor' is 'wait' buut this is my first FF and she's a smaller doe, at that.. She's been in the birthing pen for four days now.

She's a ND doe , about 10-11 months old now, and weighs about 25-30ish pounds right now. She's about 16-17 inches tall.. A lot smaller than the other goats who were about the same age as she is, but they also had fainter goat in their lines. She wasn't supposed to be bred, but she was got by my buckling who was about the same age and I had been assured wasn't ready to breed yet because he was small and his testicles weren't a big enough size. 

So far she's been losing her mucus plug, had signs of small contractions two days ago (Grunting and pushing lightly, lots of yawning and tooth grinding) then the next day she thinned out to the point where we thought she'd had a miscarriage (couldn't feel the baby at all) and lost 'plugs' on her teats. Her udders are small bulbs, about half a palm full, but her teats are a good inch long and are slightly swollen. 

Her Vulva poofed up, then flattened out and hung loose. She's been a little distant, then super clingy (her normal self), and not to mention my buck has started taking crazy interest in her (which he also did to my other pregnant doe about a week before she kidded... )

The only sign I've NOT seen is the loosening of the ligaments. The buck is a really small buck, and the doeling is in good flesh, but I'm worried the baby might stay in too long and be too big to pass. I was wondering if there was anything I could have her do/eat to encourage labor, but not force it. 


I bought her in May, she might've been exposed to my buck slightly before that since me and the person I bought her from are friends and he went over to her house for a visit with the new mothers. I wound up getting three unplanned pregnancies from a bit of misinformation, thankfully the other two are experience does who I have no worry about.


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## SalteyLove

If she were mine - I would let her out of the kidding pen to get some exercise. Movement is essential to getting the kid in the correct position and with her being in there for 4 days, it may just do the trick!

Best of luck with her! do you have a vet on call if needed?


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## ThreeHavens

Are you sure she was pushing, not stretching? I would monitor her ligaments, and feel for any kid movement.

Pre-labor can be pretty convicing ... I also would let her out. Let her walk around and get those kids moving. But once they actually start pushing, the first kid should arrive within 20 minutes, I believe. If she's not lethargic or in pain, I would just watch her.


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## Icedangel11

I'm not sure about stretching vs pushing.. She'd tense up for a second, grunt a little, then grind her teeth or yawn. She hasn't done it for about a day now.. The first night she was miserable, she'd keep trying to sleep but would tense up, grunt, and have to re-position. All the while she'd be grinding her teeth. We timed it and it was every five minutes or so, then it just stopped. Her ligaments weren't soft at all.

We've been walking her along the block daily, a small jog here and there around the yard as well. I've felt her abdomen, the last time I felt the baby it was down by the udders sitting in that 'V' the legs make. Then it was gone and I haven't felt it again since then. We were worried she had an abortion because she went really skinny. But her ligaments hadn't been soft at all and there was no blood or fetus near her. Now she's gone fat again, this time instead of being a wide fat she's a thick fat.


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## NyGoatMom

May be the babies have dropped...that will cause the sides to look sunken in. Any idea on a due date?


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## Icedangel11

I know the soonest she could have been exposed is early may. Which would put her around five months this month, if my math is right.


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## toth boer goats

So you did go in to feel for a baby? If so did you feel a wall or did your fingers go through a hole?

They can lose their plug, weeks before they kid, bits at a time.

Ligs should be gone, if it was true labor.

Later in pregnancy, doe's can be really uncomfortable and grunt while they are laying down and can lay in strange positions, their vulva's can be very open looking.

Pre-labor: They may stand up all night, push their head into a wall, stretch, yawn,. ligs are softening. Vulva loose

True labor: You may see if you look at the Doe from behind and all of a sudden doesn't look as pregnant and dropping of her sides, the kids are on their way to the birth canal. You may see a long clear amber tube like discharge. You can't feel her ligs, she will be on their side pushing, some stand, when they are in true pushing labor. There is no mistake, when they push, they will push really hard, you will see a bubble at the door.
Pawing at the ground(nesting), being off by themselves, to being right at your side. More verbal than usual, can be talking to their belly(the babies). Their udder in most cases are very tight with a shiny appearance at the bottom area. Some though, do wait until the last minute to fill.

If she is pushing and really trying, but you see no bubble, after pushing no more than 30 minutes (the 30 minute rule) this the longest they should be pushing before help is needed, but for me, I don't wait that long. If the opening when you reach in isn't very big, she will need to be dilated either manually or by a drug.

What color is her discharge? Does it smell bad at all?

How is she acting now?


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## Icedangel11

When I felt her I felt .. well, about baby size and shaped lumps. On below by the udders and one on the side. Now I feel neither. 

She started the pre-labor to a T, the only part that didn't happen was losening of ligaments. 

The goo coming out of her was light green, like snot, and didn't smell bad at all. She's not doing hard pushing yet, which is why I assumed pre-labor/stage one. But her ligs have NOT gone soft. 

Since the mucus plug is out, should I feel inside of her for dilation? Before she got this far on her vagina was tiny, like.. pencil sized opening. I'm surprised the buck could fit inside, honestly. And now it's.. A finger and a half size opening? 

My friend said when she had a baby the doctor stuck his fingers inside her and swirled around her cervix, manually breaking the mucus plug to help her labor along, should I try that? I've also been told tums could help her dilate.


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## lottsagoats1

Just want to agree with those who said exercise. Movement of the mom is important for those kids to get into birthing position and for moms muscle tone to stay strong.


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## Icedangel11

She's been moved to a large pen, and has been running around like crazy binking and kicking heels up. I lifted her up on her back legs and rubbed her belly a little bit, feeling for any babies. I felt somewhat of a lump, but it was a fleeting bump. 

I may use a gloved finger to probe and feel for cervical dilation, but I don't know is that's a good idea or not. Any risks associated with checking with a cleaned gloved hand?


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## nancy d

You can sure try. If she is not dilated she will hit the ceiling.


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## jmez61690

What your friend was talking about was a "membrane sweep". It's not to loosen the mucus plug, it's to separate the sac of waters from the wall of the uterus. Don't do that to a goat. Be gentle.

In my inexperienced opinion, I'd leave her be. Once she's in active labor, if it lasts too long that's when you should interfere. But anytime you enter her to mess around you're risking introducing infection, not to mention causing her additional stress.


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## toth boer goats

The best thing to do is, to get a vet to come out to look at her to see how she is and what they may think. Do a ultra sound to see if the kids are OK ect. 

The mucus plug does not dilate her. She may still have more plug left, especially with her ligs present.

Green color concerns me for her discharge, but glad it doesn't smell bad but it can indicate they may be a kid is in duress.

If you are to check her, wash up and use a new surgical glove, lube up and be very gentle with two fingers only and just feel in there, doesn't have to be deep, really quickly, you will hit a wall, (no opening). Now if she is open, you will be able to go through a hole. It may be big or small, that means she is open or opening.
It will not hurt her, if you are very gentle. She won't like it though. Make sure she doesn't jump around too much and get too stressed. Do not try to dilate her, if you hit a wall and she is not open. 

That day, she may of been uncomfortable on how the kids were positioned within, if she was acting strange, ligs are still there and she is not open. She might of been trying to reposition them, because they were pushing on an organ. 

Light pushing throws me off and the way she was acting.


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## Icedangel11

There is a vet nearby who will service goats.. I'll take her in and have her checked out. It'll probably be good, anyways, since she's small and I'm afraid she'll have birthing problems anyways. When she was bred she would've barely been about 14 pounds. I was hoping she'd grow bigger before she was done.

The goo is a pale green, it looked like the goo from my other doe. her udders have shrunk slightly, as well. There's still a little more goo coming from her today. It's roughly this color https://applewoodfarm.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/img_6407.jpg

I'm going to take pictures of the doe today


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## toth boer goats

Glad you are taking her to the vet, hopefully everything is OK.

It is confusing on how you described what she was doing and now nothing. So a vet would be wise. 

Praying all will be OK. 

Let us know what the vet says.


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## Icedangel11

We've talked to the vet over the phone, she says there is no concern for worry because first fresheners can be very, very, weird. She gave me a list of things to watch out, though. She said it's also possible that the babies are dead, because she was attacked by yellow jackets early pregnancy, so her body just went through with the pregnancy but the kids may not be alive. I've felt them move, so I'm hoping this isn't the case.

Today she was stretching, is uncomfortable, and her udders have grown mildly (The base has become set and firmer, like with adults, and the surroundings are squishier). A little more discharge. She's nesting. And getting very.. head-butty if you mess with her sides or back.

I put my hand on her stomach and I felt the baby move... But I believe there are two kids inside, from what I've felt.. It's looking very positive. Ligs are still there, but she's making progress in the right direction. The vet told me, when she does go down, 30-30-30 rule. 30 from sack breaking to first babe, 30 from first babe to second, and 30 from last kid to afterbirth, if it takes longer I'm to call the vet.

The biggest concern, according to the vet, is that the kids will be born REALLY small because of her size. And they may need to come live inside to stay warm until they get bigger.










possibly this size.. Worried a little bit, though. Do tiny babies have more risk if they are full term?


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## ThreeHavens

I had to help a tiny baby one year. She needed help lifting her head so I went out and helped her lift her head every 2 hours to nurse from momma. She also had a nice selection of little coaties. I gave her a tiny fingerfull of GI Soother with molasses every 2 to 4 hours through the night (depending on how she was doing). GI Soother helped her maintain her temperature and digest.

While scary, she pulled throught great. She had fight in her. She's fat now and my baby pet.


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## Icedangel11

After kidding, she and the baby will probably come live inside with us. Butterfly herself was bottle raised and eventually crate trained (she can't hold poops for all the night, but she wont pee inside) so it'll be a good fit for them both/all. 

We also have some heat lamps and nutri-drench on the ready.


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## toth boer goats

30 minute rule is good, but the afterbirth can take a few hours or more.

Hopefully the kids are OK.
Where are you feeling for them? It is usually just before the udder or on the right side.


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## Icedangel11

I feel for them on the right side, before or at the udder.. Since her udder isn't very big it's pretty easy to feel right under there. 

However, what is hard, is that whenever we get near her sides, stomach, or rear, we get a nice headbutt. I don't know quit how to deal with that. xD; I don't want to punish her, since this is not her normal behavior, but I don't want her to learn it's okay.


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## Icedangel11

Butterfly has been coming inside at night, since it's been getting chilly. I put her outside after a lig check (no softening) in our big pen for some alfalfa and fresh fruits. 

Is it normal for bucks to chase after does who are nearing birth? My buck has left the pregnant does alone until about three-ish weeks before they'd kidded. Then he's all over them. Does anyone else have experience with this? 

Also, how frequently should lig checks be done? I've been doing morning, noon, and night, and sometimes in the middle of the night if she's acting weird.


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## toth boer goats

Daily for ligs.

Yes, separate the buck, she is smelling good to him because of her discharge and he will get false signals, it is not good for her to be chased.


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## Icedangel11

http://www.thegoatspot.net/photo/albums/butterfly-548.html

Ahh, alright, I'll probably separate them in a bit, then. They spend most of the time cuddling.. Butterfly is pretty low on the group rankings and every other doe I have will headbutt her and chase her off feed.

I've taken a number of photos of her, and the buck she's bred to.


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## toth boer goats

All are nice and look good.


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## Icedangel11

Thanks.  

I'm feeling a bit better with this, now that I know the risks aren't as 'OMG SHES GOING TO DIE 100%' like I was told... By the same person who told me the buck was too small and all my other misinformation. 

I'e been checking her twice a day, bringing her in at night since its cold. She's getting pure alfalfa hay and is rather spoiled. She's loving the fireplace and besides the strange stress dreams I'm getting everyone seems happy and healthy. I guess I'll update when she pops. XD I'm hoping for drop dead gorgeous babies from the pair. 

Are singles the most common birth for a FF? Or could she have twins?


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## toth boer goats

FF can have 1 but can surprise us with 2 or more with some, just depends. Remember, if they do have a single, the kid will be bigger. We hope there will be at least 2 so they will be a bit smaller and are born easier.


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## Icedangel11

I think there are two, so that'll be good.. I'm excited, I think she's going to follow the path of the other does and keep us waiting for another three weeks before kidding. But we are prepared, vet on call to perform a C-section if need be, and someone who's pulled kids before if need be. 

Today she barely looks pregnant though. It's weird to see her go from normal looking to fat as can be.


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## Goats Rock

[QUOTE
Today she barely looks pregnant though. It's weird to see her go from normal looking to fat as can be.[/QUOTE]

She may be getting ready to deliver. If one of the kids dropped into birth position,
she might look skinnier! 
Best wishes to your doe for a speedy and good delivery and that you get healthy kids!


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## toth boer goats

I agree, watch her close.


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## top_goat

Any progress? How's she doing this evening?


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## toth boer goats

Hoping for an update?


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## Icedangel11

No real updates. No baby yet, she's been getting alfalfa hay daily and spends the warmer nights outside. No more discharge. 

She's gained a layer of fat above her ligaments and she's had some horn growth, which is good cause it means she's getting enough food to grow her and the babe. 

I've been watching her udder, I think that's going to tell me more about the due date than the discharge will.. My last doe was 3 weeks off losing the mucus plug before she kidded and I think we'll have a repeat performance.


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## toth boer goats

Thanks for the update.


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## Icedangel11

I checked on her tonight, she was in the coop with the other goats. Aside from two random drops of blood there's no progress.

Another one of my does may be close to birthing, hit by the same buck.. She's an experienced doe I'm not worried about. She dried off after producing milk for a full year and a half after kidding despite our many attempts to dry her off and her persisting on giving milk. She's getting rounder so I'm pretty sure she's within a month and a half. She's not giant yet, and her udder is non-existent. It was just a hopeful thought. 

Brownie, my other doe, is in heat. But has some pretty runny poops. She's been eating pure alfalfa hay after being switched off pasture. Nothing overly concerning. I wiped her bum with baby wipes and attempted to wipe my bucks head off. Since, of course, he's been rubbing her forehead on her. 

Butterfly, however, is just fine. I don't feel her babies anymore. It used to be a solid mass by the udder line, now it's sort've firm but mostly squish.. I'm worried that the baby might've died and her body is reabsorbing.. Any chance this happened?


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## toth boer goats

Drops of blood is not good if it is coming from the vulva area. Also check for cuts. 

Or could be she is having problems if blood is indeed coming from there.


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## Icedangel11

I looked over all the animals, not a single scratch on them. There was nothing coming from any of the goats' vulvas, but there were also chickens in there and the flock has been fighting quite a bit recently because we sold a bunch of hens and have too many roo's for the hens. It was still wet blood, so I was confused.. but again, no evidence it came from anywhere. 

The worst I could see was that Tea's eyelids are a bit pale, so we're going to worm all the goats with Fenbenzanole paste today.


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## toth boer goats

Hmm, that is strange. Hopefully all is OK.


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## Icedangel11

Well, we can no longer feel any baby.. her ligs aren't loose at all so we're all really confused.


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## toth boer goats

Maybe she aborted?


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## Icedangel11

Well, today I checked her. I can sotr've feel the mass around her udders again, not sure if it's a kid or not. She had more white mucus leaking from her, ligs weren't soft. Honestly not sure what to make of this anymore.


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## Icedangel11

another check, even more mucus. 

I went ahead and wormed her. haven't felt ligs yet, but will update. Maybe baby day


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## toth boer goats

Happy Kidding


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## Icedangel11

STILL no baby.. 

I asked the vet about ultrasounds, they said it'd only tell them IF she was pregnant, not how many or what size.. The other Vet said we could get her Xrayed, and that would tell us how many and how far along.. Might just do it..


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## toth boer goats

Let us know.


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## gegegoatgirl2698

I would go ahead w/ the X ray


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## Chessa

Any babies yet? I've been watching this thread because I also have a doe that started "labor" signs last Wednesday, and 8 days later, still no babies! She's had the white discharge like yours, but I can feel the babies moving still, so that's a little comforting. So I'm curious if yours is still laboring too?


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## Icedangel11

Nope. No babies! 

Her tail has been wagging a lot. But besides that nothing exciting! 

So, now we just have to ask.. Are there any non-pregnancy related causes that cause mucus from the vulva? Or could a false pregnancy cause a quick labor and no bleeding or anything? Her Vagina opening has expanded, though. It used to be TINY and now it's much wider. I really disliked checking it, but I was looking for signs of blood. 

I'm going to bleach test her and see if it shows her as 'pregnant' Xrays will happen around the third, or whenever I get paid next.


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## Chessa

Well if it makes you feel any better, I know without a doubt that mine is pregnant, and she's been doing the same thing as yours for just as long (and this isn't her first, she's an old pro!). We have to remember the Doe Code here, these girls are just trying to torture us! I've got my fingers and toes crossed that this weekend brings an end to these crazy sagas!


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## Icedangel11

Well, it's been over a month with this doe.. Never heard of a doe losing the plug a month before delivery. 

Then again, this is the doe who purposely angles her horns to stab you when she wants your attention.. She also learned that acting like she's about to pop gets her grain feed and inside accommodations


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## Crossroads Boers

My girls will sometimes start having discharge 6 weeks before kidding... I see it especially in first time moms. I hate not having a due date as I go crazy waiting.  But hang in there... she'll share those kids with you eventually.


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## Icedangel11

6 weeks? That gives me hope, it really does. She's been living inside since it's gotten cold and I only hoped she'd give me something cute at the end of it. I've been trying to imagine what the baby would look like, or who I hope it looks like more, and just can't picture it.

Yesterday was the 6th week exactly of the first mucus date. Ligs aren't loose today and still no udder development, so we'll see how it goes.


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## Damfino

I had a first freshener two years ago who had a big mucous discharge about two months into her pregnancy and then dried up for the next three months until babies came. Another first freshener that spring started discharging almost two months before she kidded and she never stopped. It was worrisome but they turned out to be perfectly fine. That last doe drove me nuts too--she had a huge, tight, shiny udder, no ligs, and showed all the other signs of immediate delivery for THREE DAYS :hair: before she finally got around to business, the little stinker! I swear these girls take pleasure in driving us crazy.


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## Icedangel11

Well, there is a big storm coming, apparently it'll last three ish days. 

We seen a HUGE movement in her belly. Going straight from wide to long. We felt the area and got firm movement. She's started pawing and headbutting the arm of the couch. Ligs aren't soft, but she hasn't been this grumpy since her first 'labor'. Still no udder development, no more discharge. Just the visable shift in her stomach from fat to dropped and back to fat and back to dropped. 

Maybe later tonight, not sure.


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## gegegoatgirl2698

Hope you have some babies


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## Ranger1

Good luck!
Do you have any pictures of her?


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## Icedangel11

http://www.thegoatspot.net/photo/albums/butterfly-548.html

That's momma, taken a while back.

http://www.thegoatspot.net/photo/albums/discord-539.html

That's daddy, also taken a while back.

I'll take pictures of mommy here soon.


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## Icedangel11

Welp, I give up. This baby is never coming out. She's back to the 'fat' stage.


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## lovinglife

maybe we need new pictures.


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## Crossroads Boers

Yes I agree.  New pictures would be great.


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## toth boer goats

I agree.


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## Icedangel11

Lucky me got Bronchitus, so I've been stuck in bed for the past two days. Sorry. I took some pictures, but don't have the energy to upload them here, so enjoy my facebook. I trust y'all not to cyber stalk me and look at all the OTHER pictures of animals I've posted (haha.)

She wouldn't hold still, kept following me.. So I've just thrown all the pictures I took.

https://www.facebook.com/mycala.metz/posts/913125338777262?pnref=story


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## Icedangel11

Oh, I felt her belly. Baby is sitting strongly at the udder line, I can feel it move now and again. Butterfly HATES it when I feel her belly though. 

So, I mean, with movement being felt for like.. a month now.. What is the earliest amount pregnant she could be? Three months? Four months?


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## SalteyLove

I couldn't see any udder development in the photos you posted so I would guess she is at least a month out. But maybe she is hiding a handful of udder under her winter coat? I'm not sure how early in pregnancy you can feel fetus movement.


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## Icedangel11

There's not really any udder development at all.. She lost some 'teat plugs' a while back, but hasn't been filling out udder wise.


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## jmez61690

Wow, she looks sooo small! She doesn't look pregnant to me at all... She actually looks thinner than my non pregnant doelings, but every goat is different! Are you absolutely positive she's pregnant?


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## Icedangel11

She's very small, it wasn't an intended breeding at all.. I was told my buckling was too small to breed... The exact words were 'Nah, his nuts aren't big enough and he's too short yet..' But the buck was 5ish months old at the time, maybe? He's stayed at the 12 inch mark so far.. 

e did the bleach pregnancy test on her, and can feel movement of the kid/s. It also doens't help that she goes from that to looking like a giant balloon every other day. Plus,s he lost a mucus plug. So.. I mean.. Any suggestions other than pregnancy?

EDIT: Also, the brown and white doeling from the first two pictures isn't pregnant, it's the bigger black one.


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## jmez61690

It just sounds like a lot of the updates could be signs of heat, as could the discharge. Movement could be rumen movement. 

I'd take blood at this point. For her to be that pregnant I would think she would look pregnant by now.


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## Icedangel11

I would think that, but the mucus shed looked EXACTLY like my other does before she kidded.. I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility, though she absolutely hated my buck and ran away any time he came near. I've also been told FF's are REALLY good at hiding their babies. 

I'm not sure how to draw blood yet, I will re-try the bleach test (You add a little urine to a cup of bleach, if it fizzes for a long time it's positive. I used this on my does and all two came up positive, the male and a doe who JUST kidded came up not pregnant) I was planning on getting her X-rayed early this month. If she comes up positive on bleach, I'll take her in. ... And yes. I pregnancy tested my male, lol.. I needed a control.


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## jmez61690

Icedangel11 said:


> I would think that, but the mucus shed looked EXACTLY like my other does before she kidded.. I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility, though she absolutely hated my buck and ran away any time he came near. I've also been told FF's are REALLY good at hiding their babies.
> 
> I'm not sure how to draw blood yet, I will re-try the bleach test (You add a little urine to a cup of bleach, if it fizzes for a long time it's positive. I used this on my does and all two came up positive, the male and a doe who JUST kidded came up not pregnant) I was planning on getting her X-rayed early this month. If she comes up positive on bleach, I'll take her in. ... And yes. I pregnancy tested my male, lol.. I needed a control.


I understand about the bleach test! I followed my two four month old doelings around with a solo cup to collect pee for controls too. They were negative while my potentially pregnant ff was positive so I'm hoping it's true! But she's a one year old ff, two months along, and is getting round already. Could just be fat and fuzziness though. :laugh:


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## valleyhavengoats

Any update? How is your doe doing?


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## deerbunnyfarm

Update?

I'm assuming she's not pregnant?


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## Icedangel11

Today she sadly aborted her pregnancy. She's passing afterbirth now.


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## heidivand

I'm sorry to hear that :-( I have learned lately there is heartbreak that comes along with raising goats hopefully it gets easier


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## gegegoatgirl2698

I'm so sorry, that is the worst part of raising any livestock.


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## RPC

Man that stinks I am sorry to hear that.


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## Icedangel11

Thank you guys for all the advice during this trip. Examination of the fetus shows it would've been a beautiful little girl. Her name would've been 'A Little pat of Butter' or Patsy. 

Thankfully butterfly has rebounded well and has become her usual happy, healthy self. The best guess is that a lack of copped was the cause for the abortion, or possibly the slight deformation on the little babes lower lip. Here's hoping that after a nice break she'll have another beautiful little girl, but with a better outcome. 

Here's to hoping that my older doe's kidding (tea) goes much better.


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## toth boer goats

I am very sorry for the loss.


Praying the other doe has no problems. Good luck.


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