# Another diarrhea question (She died)



## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Way too much drama around here lately. Friday we brought home a mama goat and her doeling (about 3 months old). Mama is weaning her off and not letting her nurse much at all anymore. But Friday it was raining hard about an hour after we got home and my cantankerous prego doe, Karma, would not let the new mama and baby into the shelter. So...bright me, I put them in the chicken coop. It was either that, in with the bucks, or out in the rain. I did pick up all of the chicken's feed BUT my helpful children decided once the rain stopped that the chickens were hungry and fed them. :hair: 
Doeling spied eating chicken feed, medicated. Lovely. We went through that with our other three kids when we brought them home, so expected diarrhea the next day and we got it. Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and still today. I began treating with Pepto 15 cc 2x/day on Sunday and no grain since Saturday. I wanted to give her 24 hours to clear up on her own before trying medicine. Probably not a wise choice. Each time I feed the rest of the herd I keep doeling off by herself away from the grain and clean her bottom with sudsy anti-bacterial soap so I can see if there's any fresh the next time. She still has diarrhea, but it's not a lot at any one time and she's showing no obvious signs of dehydration.
What's concerning me is that her eyelids are white. Not light pink, white. The breeder wormed her and mama with Cydectin Friday before we brought them home and no, I didn't check before we left to see the condition of their eyelids. :doh: So, not sure if this is new from her diarrhea episode we've been dealing with or she was really wormy before. It's also been pouring buckets here so I haven't been able to check for sucking lice and Sevin dust them (same breeder who sold us our buckling who had lice, but they were at a different farm). I've made sure she's drinking plenty of water and have given her nutri-drench for the last three days. When this rain stops I'm going to go check mama's eyelids, too.
Also, I don't think either of them were used to getting grain daily and we are feeding ours all 18% meat goat feed right now. They are not on hay because the pature is nice and green with plenty to eat. She was on a green pature before coming here as well.
Anything besides the pepto I can give to stop diarrhea sooner, or is it not really worrisome yet, and how concerned should I be about her eyelids considering she was just wormed Friday? Thanks, guys, and I sure hope it settles down here soon.
(Oh, and both mama and baby are now happily content with the other goaties in the shelter since they settled down).


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## Realfoodmama (Apr 13, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

You could try so probios? I've had success using it to help solidify stools, especially after a loose episode.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

The stress of having diarrhea as well as the new environment and being pushed out into the rain very likely brought on an overload of coccidia, have a fecal done to confirm but the white eyelids are also telling me this is what is going on. I would start her on a course of sulfa drugs( Albon or Di Methox) and get a temp on her too...not all cases of cocci will cause a high temp but it's best to be sure. Give her hay and some dry oatmeal, the fresh grass will just aggrivate the scouring further... the oatmeal will help bind her poop too. A dose of probiotics will also help ensure her rumen stays healthy.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

Thank you! I will give her some dry oatmeal tonight and don't have any probios on hand but I have culturelle, a human probiotic. It surely wont hurt and can get probios tomorrow, along with Albon or Di-Methox. Do I get that from the vet or OTC at TSC? Thinking out loud, I'll google it. I think I'm safe to give her a little water with baking soda too, right? Time to play mad chemist and get the probiotic with baking soda in a drencher.
So much to learn. I didn't know that cocci could cause the white eyelids as well as a heavy wormload. She could be the poster child for the Famacha scale right now. :shocked: 
I swear that goats are by far the most medically delicate animals I have ever had! Or maybe it's just boers. :chin: Thank you again!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

The first serious case of coccidia I had here was with a d7 week old doeling over 2 years ago...she did not have worms but the cocci had started to cause intestinal damage which led to anemia...hence the white eyelids. TSC does carry Albon tablets, here they don't carry the DiMethox, just Corid... I've gotten Albon from the vet before, see about having a fecal run and get the med ASAP.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

I will do that as soon as the vet opens in the morning. She ate some oatmeal and drenched baking soda with water plus culturelle. Got her hiney cleaned off well again and checked a temp, 102. She didn't like the baking soda one bit so that was fun. I should have said her diarrhea is nearly water consistency but not black and doesn't smell foul. It's a medium brown color, like rust. Definitely no blood, I can smell that a mile away. 
Should be fun trying to collect a runny fecal in the morning. :scratch: 
ray: for little balls of poop in the morning.
And thank you for help on where to get the Albon! I'm sure it's cheaper there than at the vet, but will ask them.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

since the grain was medicated it could be messing with her gut too so I would get a fecal done before treating for coccidia - dont want to mess up her insides more then you have to.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

Thank you! That combination last night seemed to be the magic bullet because her bottom is still clean this morning! She also eagerly torn into some more oatmeal like it was nobody's business (last night slowly eating some). Now my only problem is that there are no poops, no runny and no solid. I will have to follow her around for a bit to get some, but so thankful her bottom is dry for the first time since Friday! 
The chicken feed (starter) was medicated with amprolium to prevent cocci in chickens. Proud to announce we are now non-medicated laying pellets.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

Sounds like improvement that is great... :thumb:

Are you feeding chicken feed to the goats? Cause it is very bad for them...


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*



Perfect7 said:


> She still has diarrhea, but it's not a lot at any one time and she's showing no obvious signs of dehydration.
> What's concerning me is that her eyelids are white. Not light pink, white.


Just FYI, white eyelids can be a definitive sign of dehydration. We lost a fine yearling doe to bacterial enteritis this past fall, and her eyelids went from healthy pink to WHITE in a matter of just a few hours. We literally couldn't keep her hydrated, despite almost constant drenching and even SQ Ringer's.. It wasn't a lack of red blood cells that caused her eyelids to turn white, but a lack of body fluid in general. The eyelids seem to be the first to be neglected in terms of circulation, so they make a good bellwether...which is actually why FAMACHA exists.

Anyway..

To check a goat for dehydration, pinch one of their *upper* eyelids between your fingers. If it feels fleshy and supple and snaps right back into place, they're fine...if remains 'tented' for a bit just after you release it, they're getting dehydrated. A dehydrated goat's upper eyelid may also feel kinda thin..

Having said that, looking at this particular situation from the onset, I'd have been a bit "diagnostically challenged" since this incident could certainly have been the result of a coccidia bloom from stress and/or a sudden change in diet...or it could also have been a bacterial bloom caused by the exact same things, leading to dysentary (think, food poisoning)....or it could have been purely dietary (think, Taco Bell)....or purely stress-related (though stress is probably the least likely given the fact that she did, indeed, have a sudden diet change).

Lots of possible culprits there..

For it to have persisted and actually seemed to have led to some anemia/dehydration, I would have medicated based on the concern of it being either coccidia- or bacteria-related.. Without being able to quickly differentiate the two (though taking a temp may have been useful...dunno if you did that or not, as I haven't read the whole thread [shame on me...I know. ]), I probably would have chosen sulfamethoxazole/trimethoprim -- aka, SMZ-TMP. The sulfa component should be effective against coccidia, while the trimethoprim is effective against common bacterial gut illnesses. In other words, the SMZ-TMP should have been effective either way.

It's good that she's eating now, though. Usually doesn't take much to put a goat off feed, so she must be feeling considerably better. However....bear in mind that sometimes a goat with coccidiosis will continue to eat, depending on the severity of the case. If it's a bacterial illness, they generally won't eat or drink anything at all..

If it were purely dietary, I really would have expected it to have cleared up by now with supportive therapy like pepto, probios, etc.. So, from this point, if it continues, I'd probably be more inclined to lean toward a coccidia situation and treat with Dimethox..

If that doesn't yield improvement, I'd probably either switch to SMZ-TMP or **perhaps** even add some oral neomycin and/or spectinomycin to the dimethox regimen -- though I've NEVER DONE THAT BEFORE!

Let me say that again.....I've *never* given a sulfa in conjunction with neomycin/spectinomycin, so, seriously...don't hold me to that...could go very wrong...I have literally no idea. I'm just speaking as if it were me, and I'm liable to try almost anything. lol

So, those are my thoughts, for what it's worth. I've been wrong a lot and done stupid things before, too, so keep that in mind.

Good luck.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

Thank you so much! I have been checking her skin for tinting and no signs of dehydration, and no fever. Not to say she isn't dehydrated, just not to the point to where she has skin tinting yet. I have been working all day and she never did poop for me before I had to leave so I couldn't get a sample. I've checked on her since coming home and her bottom is still nice and clean. :leap: So either much better or constipated. :chin: Her eyelids still look pale but enough pink that I can now see a difference between that and the sclera of her eyes. Her gums look very pale still. It's unfortunately raining yet again (you guys up North must have wished it all my way), but I'm hoping by feeding time it will quit and I can follow her around to collect some gumballs. Her mama's eyelids and gums are also a pale pink, though not as bad as doelings, and she's been well since arriving here. I'm not sure of their worming history. :shrug: 
Pam, I don't feed them chicken feed. Well, not intentionally anyway! :ROFL: I just meant that after this second mishap I have moved our chickens to non-medicated laying pellets to avoid any more accidents in the future.
I so greatly appreciate all of you. I think you have cured her already! I will still attempt to get a sample to take to our vet and if not, will be driving her to the vet to get one directly for that cocci. I don't want to let it go, but her eyelids today are more encouraging (along with her fluffy white hiney).
I'm wondering if it hasn't persisted because she still tries to nurse on her mama and possibly getting some milk on a sour stomach?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

You had said that the chicken feed she ate was medicated with Amprolium....that is the generic for Corid, it is also used to treat coccidia in goats, though not commonly due to the chance that it might deplete thiamine too quickly. At least she's eating and getting back to normal, as long as a goat eats, they make their own thiamine.

Keep her hydrated, entice her with some yummy water or gatorade...or do as I've been known to do, I add a packet of unsweetened kool aid to the water, the smell alone has them sucking it down. If she is dehydrated, that alone will cause constipation.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*



> Pam, I don't feed them chicken feed. Well, not intentionally anyway! I just meant that after this second mishap I have moved our chickens to non-medicated laying pellets to avoid any more accidents in the future.


 HeHe...just making sure... :wink: :laugh:



> I add a packet of unsweetened kool aid to the water


Liz.....Great idea.. :thumb: :greengrin:


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*



Perfect7 said:


> Thank you so much! I have been checking her skin for tinting and no signs of dehydration, and no fever. Not to say she isn't dehydrated, just not to the point to where she has skin tinting yet.


When they get to the point of skin tenting, they're pretty much already dead. That's why it's important to check the eyelids...the eyelids will get dehydrated before anything else.

Not saying your gal's dehydrated...just saying that skin tenting doesn't mean as much in goats as other species. Just a little "for future reference" sort of a thing, I guess. 

Also, if you're unsure of the deworming history on these two, I'd probably go ahead and do it. If it were me, I'd likely hit them with Safe Guard at 3-4x the labeled dosage for goats, for three days in a row, and then I'd probably give them about 10 days and deworm again with something like ivermectin, doramectin, or moxidectin (Ivomec, dectomax, or cydectin respectively)..

Not only does using two classes of dewormers ensure a better kill of different kinds of worms, but the "white" wormers like Safe Guard are generally less powerful than the "clear" wormers like Cydectin. Basically, it allows you to kinda start off slowly.. The reason you might want to do that is because you're sorta unsure of the kind of worm load you're looking at right now, so killing them off more slowly will help prevent "unplugging" a bunch of holes in the GI all at once, which sometimes leads the animal bleed to out internally..

Ideally, you'd do this in quarantine and run a fecal egg count afterward to ensure it worked before moving them into their permanent pasture.. I know people who have lost the use of deworming agents on account of bringing in goats which had worms that were already resistant to certain types of dewormers. Not good.

Anyway...really glad to hear the doeling's doing so much better. 

(edited...breed != species. :slapfloor: )


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

Wonder if laying pellets would make Karma have this kids sooner? :laugh: I feel better that the medicated chicken feed wasn't something that was going to hurt her, then! I think the chicken starter was like 26% protein. Yikes! We have poop tonight! :clap: Why is it when you spend an hour in the pasture waiting for one goat to poop, nobody poops? Not a single one. Finally she produced two nuggets. I can see the formed balls but they are stuck together still, medium-light brown and a small amount of yellowish mucus mixed in. TMI, right? I collected it in a baggie, but do you guys still think it needs tested for the cocci? Gave her a little more oats tonight and she's been turned out to pasture with everybody, eating grass well.
And I'm going out to try that unsweetened koolaid! Great idea. Nobody seems to be drinking as much as I would expect for as hot as it has been. :grouphug:


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

And thank you, Cmjust0. I have to keep reminding myself that goats are not human. :wink: I will use the eyelids from now on to check dehydration. I was using the skin above her ears since she doesn't have a back of the hand.  
The breeder wormed her and mama with oral cydectin Friday (only worming I know of because I asked him when they had last been wormed, so he did it). I would have chosen safeguard or ivermec myself to start. That stuff smelled like kerosene! I guess it may just take some time for them to pink up if it wasn't done for awhile before. :shrug:


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

They should pink up pretty quick after being wormed, but it's soon yet. It's also possible that cydectin's worn out on the previous owner's property.. I know of at least one person who lost the use of cydectin on their farm already, and last year alone, I know of SEVERAL goats lost to parasite by different producers despite the fact that they were wormed with cydectin.

Send the poop off....you went to the trouble of collecting it, right, and surely you don't want to have done that for nothing. lol Have them run a fecal egg *count*.. That should tell you just about all you need to know about their worm burden right now, as well as reveal whether or not the kid's suffering from some degree of coccidiosis.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question*

Doeling is much better! She has solid formed pellets today of the right color, vet said no cocci or heavyworm load. She thinks it was 1) high protein in chicken food and then 2) munching on the 18% goat feed Saturday morning. She applauded the baking soda, oatmeal, and pepto! She wasn't sure about my Culturelle but said it wouldn't hurt.  
Doeling concerned me a bit this morning by just laying around and still the pale eyelids, and I planned on either starting an IV of LR tonight or giving her some sq but she's up nursing on mama and was sucking down that kool-aid water this afternoon. What a great idea! They all love it (peach flavor). Her eyelid didn't spring back quite as flexible as I thought it should but it did not tint. I may still drench some molasses water this evening just to make me feel better, but I think she's okay. Normal poops and tail wagging, all is good.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)*

Even though her fecal was negative for "a heavy wormload" per our vet, I went ahead and gave the doeling Ivermec yesterday afternoon because I've been pushing fluids and her eyelids/gums remained very pale pink. I even have been giving her iron supplements drenched. Last night and again today she's been passing white, flat worms (all dead). They are all mostly 1/4 inch but just saw one 1/2 inch. I would now venture to say that has been her problem.
Is there some type of worm the Cydectin wouldn't have hit last Friday that the Ivermec hit yesterday? I would guess tapeworms, but thought Ivermec didn't kill them? I plan to follow up with worming again in 10 days with Ivermec and also worming her mother with Ivermec tomorrow because she most likely shares the same kind of worm that responds to this. Should I reworm our whole herd (wormed April and May 3 weeks apart) with Ivermec, and should I dose everyone with Safeguard? On hand I have Ivermec, Safeguard, and Quest (which is dosed for goats exactly like the weight on the tube for horses). Any guess on what type of worm this is? No red stripes, all white. And WHY would the fecal miss this???


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)*

Quest is the same medicine as Cydectin...although it (Quest) is higher strength.

Safeguard works on tapeworms but that is about it (I've read) and just an of interest: tapeworms are not supposed to hurt adult goats)

I don't know what kind of worm though...ick! LOL


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)*

It sounds like a tapeworm, right now, I would not worm her as too many letting go can cause severe anemia. Febendazole wormers have become ineffective here for tapeworms and at this point my vet had said that the praziquantel wormers have been a better one to use....the fecal likely missed them because there were no eggs in the stool at the point it was done, the wormers given before had rid the system of the eggs and the second dose got the adults. Getting her built back up would be best at this point I think, a few raisins daily with some unsulphered molasses added to her water will help with extra iron intake.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)*

Thank you! Okay, I will not worm her again in 10 days and will give her some raisins and molasses water. I looked at some more pictures last night and what I saw looked more like threadworm versus tapeworm? Maybe? That would make sense since Ivermec is good for stronglyles (threadworm). So disgusting. Poor baby. Good news is her poopies are still normal and she's eating good!


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)*

Well, guess I spoke too soon. For the evening feeding she had a small amount of runnny poo on the back of her legs and a tad up under her tail. She didn't come in to eat with the others but stood at the fence, so my daughter went out and carried her in. She ate just a bit really slowly and looks tired. Would only eat 3-4 raisins. Temp 104.5. Lungs clear, stomach making digestion noises as normal. Heart rate 140. Eyelids and gums are still very pale. :hair: 
I have her in my utility room because it's muggy, hot, and thunderstorming off and on all day (all week). Gave her nutridrench, baking soda with water, and ibuprofen. Offered her dry oats and she ate about 1/2 cup. Her mom's udder is filling more on one side, so I think she's been nursing off mom quite a bit more the last couple days.
Haven't seen any poo since bringing her in an hour ago and she's whining if I don't sit right there with her. I'm thinking about hanging a line of LR just to cover all the bases. This is not my day.


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## Mully (Jun 23, 2009)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)*

She may have coccidiosis ...has she been medicated for this parasite? I would give her Di-Methoox Concentrated Solution 12.5% Straight out of the bottle as an oral treatment at the following rate: 
First day: 1 ml per 5 pounds- given orally.
Days 2-5: 1 ml per 10 pounds- given orally

She may not have coccidiosis as there are other things that will cause diarrhea but if it is it can take a kid down very fast and it is better to be prudent and make sure. All the best !!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)*

I agree with the Di Methox treatment, the worms that you saw were threadworms and after looking at pics myself with your description I'd hazzard a guess that the sudden release of these is what may have caused the anemia. I am praying that she recovers and that she is better soon.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)*

Thank you, Mully. Her temp is down with the Ibuprofen (101.5) and she seems a little more energetic. The vet said she was negative for cocci so I don't know what to think. She was doing much better until I decided to try worming her again because her eyelids and gums remained very pale.  
Still no diarrhea (or any poops) in the last 3 hours. Our goat feed is medicated with Decoquinate as a cocci preventative but she has not been medicated for cocci otherwise. If the medication wont hurt to try anyway, I'm all for that. She is also grinding her teeth but only when offered food or when I drenched her earlier. :shrug: 
The oatmeal seems to have worked very well again to stop the diarrhea in it's tracks but with the fever earlier there is more going on than just feed or grass. :GAAH:
I will get some DiMethox in the morning if our TSC carries it, otherwise I will be calling the vet on a Sunday to pick some up.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (Update Worms)*

Just got off the phone with the on-call vet. In that office we have the horse/dog vet, the cattle vet, and the pig/sheep/goat vet. The cattle vet was on call but he does have his own goats, so that's helpful (we usually see the pig/sheep/goat vet). He said we've already ruled out the cocci but he wants me to give her 2cc of Pen G tonight and call again tomorrow after church lets out if she isn't better so we can start a stronger antibiotic.
He said you have all given great advice with what's been done so far and he would have done the same for his own goats. :hi5: :hug: 
I am going to head down and get a bag of LR, so wish me luck with hitting those itty bitty veins. They seem a little flat so I'm sure dehydration is also playing a role in all of this.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (At the Vet)*

Our girl took a turn for the worse tonight. By the time I got back with IV supplies she had diarrhea (foul smelling) just pouring out and couldn't stand up. It had lots of worms the same white worms in it. I tried three times to get an IV (and pride myself in being a good stick) but her veins were completely constricted and flat. Her eyelids were taking on a bluish tint so I gave her 200 cc of Lactated Ringers Sub Q and headed to the vet. He again checked a fecal and no worm eggs, no cocci. He even let me look under the slide. I had bagged up a few of the worms and left them in a baggie in my rush to get down there. However, she blew several of them out onto his table and he said it looks like threadworm, and she is full of them. Her temp was back up to 104. He started an IV in her neck (EJ) and gave her shots of 3 different antibiotics, B-12, Thiamine, and Iron. Gave her probios and then wormed her again with Panacur. He said she was in hypovolemic shock and has some unknown secondary infection. So, our baby is spending the night at the vet's on an IV drip. They will let us know how she's doing tomorrow afternoon, and he gave her 50/50. I know losing goats is something that comes with raising them, but I'm too new to them to lose one so early into it.  Hoping Chipper pulls through this. :sigh:


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## Mully (Jun 23, 2009)

*Re: Another diarrhea question (At the Vet)*

When massive amounts of parasites ie. worms, bacteria there is a toxic reaction to the body as there is a toxin overload that sometimes makes them sicker. It is good you have a vet that has goats because IMO he is doing the right thing and i do not think the goat would survive without the iv and the extreme care. God Bless For me prayer always works so i will pray.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Our baby passed away this morning at the vet. :tears: He did a necropsy on her at no expense to us because he was curious as to the cause of death for future reference. It took about an hour for him to call back and say the caues of death was a complete blocked large intestine, blocked with tapeworms. He said some were over a foot long and still alive, but the ones she was passing were dead.
He said this is very unusual and he has never seen a goat so infested with tapeworm. It made me feel better in that he said the tapworm would not have been affected by the ivermectin I gave her and her diarrhea, solid stools, normal stools, diarrhea were part of the blockage loosening up, then balling back up. He said there was nothing that could have saved her with the degree to which she had worms.
I'm okay because death is a part of life, but my kids are crying and the part that gets me is the mama goat out there standing at the fence still crying for her baby. The last she saw her, I was carrying her off into my house. She's still waiting for me to bring her back. :sigh: 
Thank you all for your help. The vet was impressed with all the advice we received here. :hug:
**Edited to say that the vet said Valvasen (sp?) is the only thing that will kill tapeworm. It's not widely used with breeders due to the risk of aborting the kids. We're picking some up for the mama doe tomorrow at the vet.


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm so sorry. *hugs to you and your kids and momma goat*
Valbazen is the name of the wormer he meant? Does that sound right to you? It does carry the risk of abortion.
Again I am so sorry. You did everything you could.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Yes, Valbazen. Thank you!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I am so sorry you lost her :hug: Mama will be ok in a few days, just give her some extra TLC , being with her will help you and your kids as well :hug: 

It is wonderful that you have a vet available that knows goats and has the compassion of knowing that caring for an animal means more than just feeding it. There is another wormer that will kill tapeworms and is safer for pregnant does, it is Praziquantel and comes in different strengths as a paste wormer for horses. Equimax is one brand with 1.87% ivermectin and 14.03% praziquantel, Zimecterin Gold is another brand with 1.55% ivermectin and 7.75% praziquantel.

Praziquantel is approved for use in pregnant mares so I would assume it's use is safe in pregnant does.
Has your vet given you a course of action for the rest of your herd?


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you, Liz. Didn't see this before I posted about the Safeguard. I will be using the Equimax. Valbazen makes me nervous with abortions and birth defects with our does and a "loaded buck" around, even if they are seperated. Accidents happen. Mama goat is acting very upset with me, snorting and stomping her feet when I try to near her. I was the one who took baby away from her last night, so I'm the villain who kidnapped her. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
The kids have already recovered because the breeder said he will replace our doeling tomorrow. We didn't expect that and I don't fault him at all. She looked very healthy when we got her Friday. Dh just gave him a heads up so he could check his heard of 200+. Our mama and baby were at the same farm as his multi-grand champion bucks. Not good.
THIS TIME I'm checking eyelids and worming with an arsenal anyway so I know.
And yeah, all three of our vets are awesome. Poor guy came out to his office and stayed until 3 am with our baby when he had to teach Sunday school this morning. Very good people, and less than 15 minutes away.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I am so very sorry P7, I was hoping she would pull through this. At least you know there was nothing else you could have done for her. I am glad your kids are doing better, and hopefully getting another doeling will get them past this loss. Kids are tough, very tough. My kids amaze me so much all the time. 
I hope Mama doe doesn't have an infestation like that, and gets over the loss of her baby soon. She's probably be just the same whether she saw her baby take her last breath or not. 
When I worked with horses, late in the foaling there was something making the foals sick - and 3 foals who were the same age died whent hey were just a couple of days old. They were all on iv's struggling to live, and the next morning I come to work and they were gone.
They sent the mares to my barn an hour or two later, and turned them out in a pasture together with other mares, and it was heartbreaking, they were running the fenceline, searching for their babies, and just totally upset.
It took 3-4 days, and you'd never have guessed they had lost a foal only days later. So I hope your doe recovers soon. I am always terrified of something like this happening, I know it happens, but doesn't mean it is ever easy.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you, Hoosier. When our mare lost her foal, I left the baby in the stable with her until she walked away from the baby to give her closure. I thought about bringing our doeling home for the mama, but the vet wanted to open her up to see what went wrong.
I am kicking myself for not worming her with something to kill tapeworm instead of the ivermec, but can't do it now. I can just make sure I protect the rest of the herd. And our vet didn't give us a strategy for dealing with the rest of the herd, except for worming her mother for tapeworms as well. 
He did say he has NEVER seen a goat with a tapeworm blockage like that, and has rarely seen it in dogs, so I don't think it's that common if that makes anybody feel better.
The little white worms we saw coming out, according to the vet after the necropsy, were chunks off the bigger worms and not full worms in themselves. So, the ivermec or cydectin was doing something to them even if it wasn't supposed to. Didn't kill them, just tore them up a little. Hope this helps somebody else.


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## Galavanting Goat (Apr 27, 2010)

P7, a good treatment to keep on hand for tapeworm treatment in goats is the dog tapewormer tablets "Droncit" we use these whenever we have a rescue goat come in with severe (or minor) tapeworm issues, the doseage is 1 tablet per 10 kg of body weight. If you suspect a heavy infestation in the goat it is important to use a goat wormer first or else you may risk a chance of a bleedout, not that the Droncit tablet will harm the goat but because it is so thorough that the worms don't stand a chance against it and it gets every part of the worm where as with some of the goat wormers they will not kill off the head of the tapeworm but tear the body off due to various reasons. I'm sorry for your loss, it's never easy for us because we rightfully become so attached to our herd members so easily. Thinking and praying for you during this time.


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

I am so very sorry :hug: .


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Wow.. I'm really sorry to hear about the doeling.  I've only ever *seen* intestinal worms a time or two, but never have I heard of any such thing as you described. Doesn't sound like there's much anyone could have done to save her.

Good on you for trying so hard, though! You definitely deserve a big pat on the back for caring enough to try so hard to save her. Most folks around here just let them die if a few bucks worth of treatment doesn't solve the problem.. I'm considered a bit of a weirdo for keeping things like IV sets and lactated ringers in my medicine cabinet.

Again...really, really sorry.


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## Suellen (Mar 9, 2008)

:mecry: :hug: 
Suellen


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the kind words. It was a hard lesson for me to learn here.  Is Droncit something I can get OTC or should I purchase some from our vet? I've seen small white worms in feces before, but it was the small strongyles variety. I've never seen tapeworms, ever. Barber pole is big in this area.
Cydectin is a big wormer in our area, and maybe nobody thinks about it not killing tapeworm? Since most adult goats seem to build up immunity to it, maybe it's not much of a problem? I can guarantee we're going to treat at least twice a year for it here, more if I see any ever come back.
The vet was really shocked after the necropsy when he called me back. 
I just pray the breeder treats everybody she was in the pasture with because it must have been heavy there for our little one to be so full of them in the three months she's been alive.  
Something so preventable. It's really disheartening to me, and now I am the almost obsessed eyelid/gum checker. Nightly. I burned all of their bedding last night, soaked the shelter down in 10% bleach, gave everybody safeguard anyway until I got the Equimax today. Washed all feed buckets and the water trough with bleach. I want to set my entire pasture on fire and put the goats out with the horses in the big pasture. Not that I'm freaking out or anything! Oh yea, and tapeworms can pass to humans. I had the doeling in my utility room. Dh spent two hours hosing it down with bleach.
Thank you all for the kind words and encouragement. And Cmjust0, as a retired medic I have the whole trauma kit on hand. :laugh: Just was out of LR, so had to make a pitstop to get more.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Droncit is the brand name of the praziquantel used in tablet form for worming cats/dogs....and a vet needs to prescribe the "Droncit"

The praziquantel paste is just as effective and not as expensive as the Droncit tablets. 1- 34mg tablet used to worm a dog costs $5


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Ah. Okay, thank you, Liz. I will be keeping Equimax on hand here so that should cover the praziquantel.


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## Galavanting Goat (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks for helping P7 out with her Droncit tablet question Liz, being here in Australia, I would have been asleep when you asked your question P7. 
Wow, i'm surprised the vet has to prescribe the Droncit over there, here we just call into the vet and ask for a few Droncit tablets. It's usually the other way around, so many times i've been dumbfounded at how many meds you all have available without vet prescription, we can't get any kind of penacillin or many other meds here without having to get the vet out first and you can get many of yours available at Jeffers etc.


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