# lead training



## Shelly Borg (Nov 2, 2009)

Ok as of 2 days ago we have 2 goats. One my little girls angora Wally who is a year old and the other my sons nubian Burt who is 3. Nether of them had had been handled by humans much. Yesterday we did people are good training by only letting them feed when next to a human kid with a lead rope on. 
Today we did it again and it went so well we took them for a short walk. It went better then I thought it would. We even had to face barking dogs and Burt got in front of my son and stood his ground snorting. 
Now the trouble we had was Burt like to orbit my son and Wally has 2 speeds drag and fly depending on how far Burt has moved ahead with out him. 
We are using collars at this time.
Should we try to find halters for them?


----------



## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

It will be interesting to hear what somebody who knows what they are talking about (like Rex) has to say about this. Here's my 2 cents worth.

I found halters to be useful for teaching the goats to lead. The halter puts a lot more leverage on the goat's head so you can control him a lot better than with just a collar. If a goat really drags behind when you try to lead him it may help to put a halter on him and leash him to the collar of another goat who leads well. Then the collared goat drags the laggard along rather than you having to do it. Since the bad boy is being dragged around by his head he will soon learn to keep up. The collared goat won't be bothered much by this.

I don't use a leash on my goats very much tho. When we are near a road, or when I need to keep them off trees and such near a campground or parking lot, or when I am messing with their packs and want them to stand still, I use the lead. But while out hiking I let them walk along at their own pace.


----------



## ashkelon (Jul 25, 2009)

I don't know much about goats, but I learned a long time ago that flight distance has a huge effect on prey animals like horses and llamas. I try to work with them outside their flight "bubble" in the beginning so they don't have the stress of dealing with me in their space along with the new idea.

There are two ways that work for me. I have used both with the little children's pet goats here on the farm and for what its worth, it worked.

I round penned them like we do with the horses until they could settle down and decide that where I was was the "safe place" and that I was the leader. Round penning is a skill, and takes some learning, but you can find somebody who knows "natural horsemanship" in your area. It's basically the idea that they are in a big round pen, so they are able to run as far (in their head) as it takes to get away from predators, so anybody still there is one of the "good guys". Then you play a sort of balancing game with them to keep them moving until they are willing to let you get close, or better, to decide to come with you.

It works different from the horses, the goats are "smarter" about being "prey" and they have a better understanding of "what you're up to" than the horses do, but for the ones being snotty, or terrified out of their minds of people it worked really well for me -- It must work for them on some deep prey-animal level.

When I start leading, with horses, llamas, dogs or the goats -- and I'm new to the goats -- I start with a very long line. I have some strap-type cotton machine belting that's super, but for a goat clothes line should work. I'd use a halter and as always with leads be really careful NOT to snap their head around. I'm talking 15' or more of line. Long enough the animal is unconcerned about you at the other end. 

Wait until they are calm, and starting to think of things other than you and then walk just enough to turn them. Do it in a circle in relation to your body so you don't get into a tug of war, if that happens, let them hop and buck and get over it and start again. As long as you work in a circle or at an angle to them, they should pick up and start leading. But I would take it slow and work them one at a time. 

One other thing, when you lead a prey animal, don't start at them -- look where you're going so they know the game is going somewhere -- not that you are trying to "reel him in".

Freedom is the best incentive in the world for almost any animal, love and petting are cool, but time out to chill is the best. No love-pats, or cookies, are as good for praise as the freedom to let down and relax. My goat loves being petted and treats, but he loves the chill time when we're working on new stuff. I mostly use verbal praise with it.

So work them and in the beginning when you see that they even think about trying, back off and let them relax. Try again and ask for a little more, and when they give it, let them chill and do their thing. Repeat, always asking a little more -- a few more steps, a little calmer near the "scary thing", whatever. 

So at first, even a step with you, should be enough to let them "soak" for a minute, then ask for 3 steps (and change direction), let them relax. Not a vacation, but time enough you see the pressure go out of them. As they learn it happens faster. Then work on shortening the line. When they are good at that, to closer to the "wicked" things, or places they don't want to go. Remember, every new thing you add sets the bar back to square one, but it takes much less time to get back to doing the right thing.

Try to show them "scary stuff" at home, and one at a time, so you are the "safe place".

And don't panic, loose your temper or let them make you crazy.

Prey animals are different from dogs! You can ALWAYS win the battle with force, but you WILL lose the war, because if you loose your temper and force them, or trick them, the battle will be that much worse the next time. You have to out think, and a lot of times out-wait them.

Goat are smart, but the advantage you always have over prey animals is they are not made to stand still when they are under stress. They may kush (lay down), but that's another issue. 99% of the time fear or boredom will make them move. You just have to be ready to help them make the right decisions and praise the heck out of them when they are right.

Sorry, you may know this stuff and I beg pardon for typing so much anyway. You'd never know in "real life" I don't talk much at all


----------



## bentmettle (Jul 29, 2009)

My good goat will usually stop, drop to the ground, and not move on the halter. I can get him up and drag him a bit. After that, he'll come if I don't stop moving. After 2-3 minutes of this, he'll follow quite a bit easier.

The other goat is still hopeless 

He won't do much of anything, but will follow the "good" goat. He makes me hungry when I deal him.


----------



## Herb (Dec 12, 2008)

Put them out on a tether.

They will learn to respect the lead pulling against a post or tree, rather than your arm.


----------



## Shelly Borg (Nov 2, 2009)

Thank you all for your ideas.


----------



## ashkelon (Jul 25, 2009)

It's always easier to get them up and moving again if you don't pull in the direction they are facing. Never do that with any of the big animals. Circle around behind and pull from an angle in the direction 45 degrees from the side in an arc toward their butt (approximately).

And don't just pull hard in one direction. I'd pull from multiple directions. You want to rock them off center and make it annoying and unpleasant to stay down. 

The key is once they are on their feet -- STOP! That's the time to reward them with the release. 

At first I would reward "thinking" about getting up, so I'd let off the pressure and praised if a front foot unhooked. But then I'd go back.

What you want to do is step it up gradually and release them when they do good, or in the beginning just think about it.

You can also loop a second line around their neck in a U and rock back and forth with the weight on first the right and then the left to "unsettle" them. 

You're not punishing them. You're keeping it from being a party for the goat when they lie down.

I'd get creative first, but there's always the collar... Which I would'nt hesitate to use if you are not physically up to messing around like this. The thing is, it's not a silver bullet, it's another tool that you use in pretty much the same way.

Rex has a great explanation of how to use one for goats that kush and don't get up.


----------



## Perry (May 8, 2009)

Ashkelon, thanks for the insightful and thoughtful suggestions on lead training.

Perry


----------



## ashkelon (Jul 25, 2009)

You're welcome. I talk a lot, but lead training is one of those weird things that has so many nuances of meaning for both us and the animal. And it's so important for basic safety and sanity.

My first borzoi (they are big dogs, and huge when you are 10) would flop over on his side and shut his eyes...From there I've gone to frightened stallions, spoiled foals of all kinds, very marginally tamed llamas and camels, and a couple of bears.

But I readily admit I don't know much about goats. And each species has their own way of thinking that you only learn hands on. 

I would say by the time this is over -- you will know much more about goats that kush than I do, from sheer experience.

That's why I love this board.


----------



## SarahJean (Apr 30, 2009)

Herb said:


> Put them out on a tether.
> 
> They will learn to respect the lead pulling against a post or tree, rather than your arm.


this technique works!!! We did it with our show cattle.. tied them at their head level for 4 hours a day and they respect the halter, the slightest nudge will get them motivated to move

the lamanchas are tricky ( don't know what you have tho) my "little" kid is smart enough to wiggle out of one.. so I've modified my method, I bought a slip collar and he gets tied about mid neck level while i feed.. he walks really well!!

treats dont hurt to win animals over either!


----------



## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

PLEASE! if you do the "tie 'em and let them fight the tree" thing...

do NOT tie the goats with a halter but with a collar. Carolyn Eddy explained on the packgoat mailing list that a goats neck is much more flexible than a cows or a horses and by tying them with a halter there's a serious risk of neck injury for the goat.

and don't leave them unsupervised. Strangulation is a terrible way to die and goats have a strange talent for getting themselve tangled up.


----------

