# First dead goat



## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

This morning I went out to check on my goats and found a dead buckling. I honestly have been worried every morning for the past 6 weeks that I would find a dead goat because we have had such an issue with 2 does and their babies. Both trios(mom and 2 doelings, and mom and 2 bucklings) got coccidia. The mom and 2 doelings bounced right back after I got a fecal and dosed them with marquis. The other goats. Not so much. With the second doe and her bucklings I got the same meds for even though I usually go the herbal route because I just felt it was the best option. The does diarhea was terrible. I got home with the meds and I extracted 4 ccs. And I needed a minimum of 13 to dose her. So I go back to the vet to get what I paid for and the girl acted like I was lying. Charged me for more meds and when I get back home I extracted 11.5 all together. At this point I had to leave for work. With it being a Friday I knew the vet would be closed and I freaked out and just gave her the meds. Even though I slightly under dosed her she got better. 3 weeks later she had diarhea again. So I took a fecal in and explained the situation about how I was double charged and didn't dose her enough and thought she had cocci still. The receptionist( who was the one who shorted me) got irritated and talked to the vet. Who by the way never even spoke to me. She said that they saw tapes in the fecal. Not enough cocci to cause diarhea but if she did have it again that it would be because my I didn't clean my pens well enough, not because she was underdosed. Which made me upset because I do clean my pens. She was in an unused one after this anyway. Like I've never had any animal in this pen. I dosed her with safe guard and still no change. At this point her eyelids are barely pink and her bucklings now have diarhea. At this point I'm frustrated to the point of tears. I've spent so much on a vet and they are extremely unhelpful. I ended up having my ex-bosses wife do a fecal for me. She saw a huge amount of cocci. So I dosed them all with corid. For 5 days and now we are working on anemia. My doe is pretty weak but still eating. I've dosed her with red cell 2 days now. But after finding the dead buckling I just feel so defeated and like I don't know what I'm doing! He was fine yesterday. I need help! I know this is all over the place. If someone could help that would be great!


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

What dosages safeguard was given, paste or liguid, when, and for how many days? What dosages of CoRid/marquis did you use and when? What herbal remedy/combination were you using; how much and how often? How much did the treated goat(s) weigh?

Was electrolyte water, probiotics, B Complex and/or a hay only diet provided during the periods of diarrhea? 

Per a past post dated 10/02/19, chickens share the same shelter and enclosure. Did the goat(s) eat or break into the chicken feed? Was a bacterial culture done on the poop at any time?

I am sincerely sorry for your loss. I suspect the last thing you might want to do right now is answer a bunch of questions. In order to help there is a need for more information.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

So sorry for your loss.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

I'm so sorry you lost your buckling. :angel:

Could you post pictures of your goats? And their pen? What do you feed them? What is the weather like where you are?


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

No, no I don't mind answering questions because I really want to figure this out.
* I gave her the marquis on September the 13th. I can't remember the other dates right now. I'll have to look.
*safe guard paste was used. The kind for horses. My tsc was out of the one for goats.
*during treatment she had only an orchardgrass mix. She had electrolyte water and probiotics but no b complex. I did feed her a few oak leaves bc they are her favorite.
*i mixed 6 tablespoons of corid in 16 ounces of water and dosed her 22 ccs per day. She lost quite a bit of weight and she weighed 72 lbs the morning I began dosing her with cord.
*i use fir meadows gi soother and the dewormer. I used each once a week.
*yes she did get into the chicken coop around that time when the door was open and ate a few bites of chicken food. She doesn't have access to it now. I keep the chicken food inside and only feed them at night so I think that was the only time she had any.
*no bacterial culture was done. I thought she may had eaten something poisonous to her around that time bc she got out of the pen so I did give her activated charcoal.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

21goaties said:


> I'm so sorry you lost your buckling. :angel:
> 
> Could you post pictures of your goats? And their pen? What do you feed them? What is the weather like where you are?


this is the only picture I have at the moment. Only the field they are sometimes in. I'll try to get pictures of their shelter and the goat in question later. The weather has been dry here lately and now it's in the 30s at night. It was really hot. Like in the 90s and dry. We were under a no burn advisory the whole month of September and into October. It has rained since then but not a lot.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

21goaties said:


> I'm so sorry you lost your buckling. :angel:
> 
> Could you post pictures of your goats? And their pen? What do you feed them? What is the weather like where you are?


I feed them a mixed hay. Orchard grass, alfalfa. And chaffhaye. The 2 does in milk get a bit organic grain but the sick one hasn't in weeks. And in the summer they have access to grass and weeds in the big fenced in area.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

what dose was safeguard?
Oak leaves are great to give, they are binding and can help with scours. Good food too. 
GI Soother is good stuff and you can give daily

Coccidia can do so much damage in a very short time which can interfere with nutrient absorption. Smoothies of dark greens, carrot, celery, fresh raw garlic ,probiotics or yogurt, molasses and ACV ..any or all of these in enough water to blend smooth. Drench with drenching syringe or turkey baster. If you have access to Dr C's Vitaherbs or LOH Herbamins, add that too. LOH also have a blend called Gi Back on Track that is very good. Leaves, vines, pine, cedar are all good food...Idea is to feed as much usable nutrients while you work on her other issues. I would also suggest to send a fecal into a lab for full evaluation.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

happybleats said:


> what dose was safeguard?
> Oak leaves are great to give, they are binding and can help with scours. Good food too.
> GI Soother is good stuff and you can give daily
> 
> Coccidia can do so much damage in a very short time which can interfere with nutrient absorption. Smoothies of dark greens, carrot, celery, fresh raw garlic ,probiotics or yogurt, molasses and ACV ..any or all of these in enough water to blend smooth. Drench with drenching syringe or turkey baster. If you have access to Dr C's Vitaherbs or LOH Herbamins, add that too. LOH also have a blend called Gi Back on Track that is very good. Leaves, vines, pine, cedar are all good food...Idea is to feed as much usable nutrients while you work on her other issues. I would also suggest to send a fecal into a lab for full evaluation.


I gave her 3xs her weight since it was for horses. For 3 days. She is eating. Her eyelids are very pale now. I have only given her 2 doses of red cell. I gave her 4.5 ccs each time. The only greens I have on hand right now are arugula and a mix of romaine for salads. I do have all the other ingredients. Which greens would be best. I can go to the store and get different ones if needed.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

I have noticed all the information seems to be about the doe specifically. Same questions in post #2, and other members, for background about the buckling that died. How old are the 2 sets of kids?

We're fecal done for any of the kids?


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

NigerianNewbie said:


> I have noticed all the information seems to be about the doe specifically. Same questions in post #2, and other members, for background about the buckling that died. How old are the 2 sets of kids?
> 
> We're fecal done for any of the kids?


Yes. fecals were done for the kids as well and they were dosed based on weight just like mom. They are 9 weeks tomorrow. We were waiting to wether them when all this passed and they got better. Mom is really tall and they are part Pygmy so we didn't feel there is a risk of the bucklings getting her pregnant if she did go into heat. The other doe and doelings are fine. Good fecals, eating well, nice pink eyelids. The doelings are 12 weeks Friday.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

To clarify the bucklings had the same issues as mom and were dosed based on weight just like her.


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## Honey21 (Jan 26, 2014)

Following


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I also live in South Central Kentucky. If you are within driving distance of Glasgow, I can recommend my vet, Dr Webb, of Glasgow Animal Clinic. Also Dr. Owsley of the same clinic.

No one there ever talks down to me.

They aren't "goat vets" but they do try, and they do listen, and in my opinion, have saved more of my goats than they've killed.

Dr Creek isn't as good with goats as the others, in my opinion, but he'll still listen. Dr. Sullivan is new there. I haven't been able to gauge her abilities yet.

I'm sorry you've lost one. But don't give up on the ones you still have.

What mineral mix do you use? Sufficient minerals can help so much when it comes to being able to fight off problems. I can offer some suggestions there, if you don't have any ideas.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice above.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I also live in South Central Kentucky. If you are within driving distance of Glasgow, I can recommend my vet, Dr Webb, of Glasgow Animal Clinic. Also Dr. Owsley of the same clinic.
> 
> No one there ever talks down to me.
> 
> ...


I use manna pro goat minerals(I know, not a great choice.) this bag is nearly gone and I plan on either getting the wind and rain storm or the new county organics mineral since a distributor for them just got some in recently and they are within driving distance for me. I copper bolus them every few months ever since I noticed a buck of mine has a dull coat and is a little rusty. Glasgow is a little far for me but still doable. I may use them for my future goat needs although it'll be impossible for me to get there this week because of work. And no, I don't think st this point my current vet is going to help out with this. He isn't good with farm animals, I have heard. I've spent so much money there recently and haven't had any luck.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Would it hurt to copper bolus her with all this going on? I read in another thread a goat was severely anemic and someone suggested it. She hasn't been bolused in 4-6 months anyway.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

All the above advice is great. But you also need to find a new vet. Obviously the current one only cares about taking your money and cheating you with no intention of giving proper advice on goats.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Kristendanae said:


> I gave her 3xs her weight since it was for horses. For 3 days. She is eating. Her eyelids are very pale now. I have only given her 2 doses of red cell. I gave her 4.5 ccs each time. The only greens I have on hand right now are arugula and a mix of romaine for salads. I do have all the other ingredients. Which greens would be best. I can go to the store and get different ones if needed.


With red cell..give once a day for a week then once a week until color improves. B 12 or B complex Plus once daily, 30cc of a 50/50 mix of acv/water once a day..high protein feed and browse all help rebuild red blood cells..
for smoothies..Kale, romaine, alfalfa, kelp ..most darker greens are good for smoothies. Pumpkin is also good.. smoothies are easier on the animal to draw up nutrients. Fruits can be added as well..I use apple or bananas a lot. Its usually what I have on hand lol 
There is also a smoothie product called Dyne..I have never used it but some find it helpful to give.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Could you post some current photos of the goats? Then we can tell you if you need to bolus again.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

I cannot get her up. It seems she is now too weak to stand and I'm not able to get her up. I brought her over some hay and she was eating it and she drank probably a 1/4 a gallon of electrolyte water. Which I'm guessing means she hasn't drank and has been down since yesterday night.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Oh no. What's her temperature right now, and has she had any B-Complex injections? What about Probios? Can you get some Probios?
If she's down, a copper bolus isn't going to help, it takes too long to start working. Have you any Replamin Gel? That is very fast acting. And it also leaves the body very quickly, so it is pretty safe.

Just a thought, how do her lungs sound? Pneumonia is a real danger when she's already under attack...


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Stockdales in Bowling Green has Sweetlix MeatMaker and also Co-op Brand Supreme Goat Mineral. Both of these are superior mineral mixes. MFS Alliance in Edmonton carries the Supreme as well. The Southern States in Glasgow carries the Traditions Weathershed, which is also been a quality mineral for my herd.

These are just ideas for your future purchases...


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Oh no. What's her temperature right now, and has she had any B-Complex injections? What about Probios? Can you get some Probios?
> If she's down, a copper bolus isn't going to help, it takes too long to start working. Have you any Replamin Gel? That is very fast acting. And it also leaves the body very quickly, so it is pretty safe.
> 
> Just a thought, how do her lungs sound? Pneumonia is a real danger when she's already under attack...


Her temp today and yesterday was in the 102 range. Her lungs sound ok I don't notice anything out of the ordinary. I fed her a smoothie mix someone suggested and she liked it so much she tried to eat the syringe. She hasn't had a b complex injection. And hopefully I can get some pro bios since I'm out. I don't remember seeing replamin gel in stock at Tsc. I'll see if I have a chance to go to bowling green but I know I'll be able to tomorrow. I'm hoping that won't be too late.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> I cannot get her up. It seems she is now too weak to stand and I'm not able to get her up. I brought her over some hay and she was eating it and she drank probably a 1/4 a gallon of electrolyte water. Which I'm guessing means she hasn't drank and has been down since yesterday night.


Can you post pictures please? Both of her and of her FAMACHA score (eye membrane)? They help a lot. As well as describing symptoms/behavior in detail.

You really need a vet ASAP.

If she is down and anemic, she may need a blood transfusion. Goats hide sickness so if they are down that means it is really bad, an emergency.

I would recommend reading this page : http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/anemiaingoats.html

l would do the following:
Daily Fortified B Complex shots. It will help with anemia and boost their energy. @toth boer goats told me on here that you can give the shots in amounts of 12cc, 3 times a day. You can't overdose b vitamins.

Also give Red cell or Magic cell orally daily for 5 days, then once a week after that. Dosage is
6ml/100 lbs.
Give probiotic gel 2 times a day.

Is she scouring (diarrhea)?

Can she not stand at all?

Can you hear rumen sounds?

Make sure she has electrolytes available to drink at all times.
A 100 pound goat needs a gallon of fluids per day (spread out over 24 hours). So if she's not drinking, then syringe feeding, tubing, or sub-q fluids will have to be administered. Same with not eating, a slurry like others have mentioned should be fed. A drench gun makes it easier.

Keeping an eye on her temp is super important. Normal temp is 101.5 F to 103.5 F. If her temp is low, that is an emergency and means the rumen is shutting down. High is infection.

Some more ideas for fluids: http://www.goatworld.com/articles/potions/index.shtml

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/diagnosingillness.html

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/hydrationnutriti.html

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/whyarestomachwor.html

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/BVitamins06.html

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/dehydration.html

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/still-facing-anemia-issues-with-another-goat.208729/\

http://goat-link.com/content/view/110/107/#.VUq7ItpViko

http://www.waldeneffect.org/blog/Goat_body_condition_and_parasite_prevention/

https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/sites/catalog/files/project/pdf/em9055.pdf


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> I don't remember seeing replamin gel in stock at Tsc.


Replamin is typically not in store at TSC, you have to order it site to store, or you can order it from other places online. We get it from Jeffers

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/replamin-gel-plus

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/vets-plus-replamin-gel-plus-300-cc-tube

If you buy the 300cc tube you have to get the applicator gun to administer it with: https://www.jefferspet.com/products/applicator-gun

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/vets-plus-gel-paste-applicator

Here is a recommendation for fecals, if you are not getting clear answers from the vet. 
You can mail them:

https://www.facebook.com/meadowmistlabservice/

https://www.meadowmistlabservice.com/441123869

https://www.meadowmistlabservice.com/441136255

We have used MeadowMist with great results. Results can be emailed to you with numbers on specific parasites. If you have questions you can ask the lady who does the fecals.  There are also other places to mail fecals if you want a different lab. For us at least, it is way cheaper than the vet.

I would get fecals done ASAP.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

21goaties said:


> Can you post pictures please? Both of her and of her FAMACHA score (eye membrane)? They help a lot. As well as describing symptoms/behavior in detail.
> 
> You really need a vet ASAP.
> 
> ...


Her temp is 102.6. She has rumen sounds and is eating. I can't get a picture of her membrane bc I'm not that coordinated and I'm the only one home. But it is very pale and barely pink. I have been feeding her by a syringe.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Also, I posted a picture above. I ended up moving the hay feeder because her 10 month old doeling was stepping on her while eating out of the feeder. I'm trying to keep her from eating the hay on the ground. When my husband gets home if she still can't stand he will pack her and put her in the shed.


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## ReNat (Jan 20, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> All the above advice is great. But you also need to find a new vet. Obviously the current one only cares about taking your money and cheating you with no intention of giving proper advice on goats.


So makes only uneducated vet, not with experience work!


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Okay. I would try everything to try and get her to stand. Does she seem weak? When did you find out and how long has she been down? Any goat safe food to tempt her to get up with. Molasses, green oak leaves, honey,any goat safe plant or fruit. Even grain just don't let her eat more than a bite of grain. Maybe have to restrain the other goats so they won't get in the way. I would actually separate her from them if she can't get up.

I would also recommend reading and following all the directions posted in my previous post. If she is down I would be getting up throughout the night as well to give b complex shots, slurry, fluids, etc.

Good luck and keep us updated! Feel free to ask any other questions.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Try to not let her lay flat, but rather up on her chest. Better for breathing and digestion.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

21goaties said:


> Okay. I would try everything to try and get her to stand. Does she seem weak? When did you find out and how long has she been down? Any goat safe food to tempt her to get up with. Molasses, green oak leaves, honey,any goat safe plant or fruit. Even grain just don't let her eat more than a bite of grain. Maybe have to restrain the other goats so they won't get in the way. I would actually separate her from them if she can't get up.
> 
> I would also recommend reading and following all the directions posted in my previous post. If she is down I would be getting up throughout the night as well to give b complex shots, slurry, fluids, etc.
> 
> Good luck and keep us updated! Feel free to ask any other questions.


 Last night right after eating she just layed down by the feeder. All my goats tend to sleep in the open unless it's raining or snowing. I covered her over last night bc she is the only goat I have that doesn't get a puffy winter coat and it's been quite chilly here at night. In the high 30s low 40s. This morning I found her dead buckling on the other side of the pen and she was still sleeping and it was still dark. I noticed around 12 she was eating off the ground instead of standing up. That is very unlike her. I tried to get her up and she refuses to to put her front feet in front of her to stand .


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Try to not let her lay flat, but rather up on her chest. Better for breathing and digestion.


 she hasn't tried to lay flat yet. She seems really alert and looking around. I plucked some leaves off a tree and she really looked like she wanted to try and get up but stopped.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> Last night right after eating she just layed down by the feeder. All my goats tend to sleep in the open unless it's raining or snowing. I covered her over last night bc she is the only goat I have that doesn't get a puffy winter coat and it's been quite chilly here at night. In the high 30s low 40s. This morning I found her dead buckling on the other side of the pen and she was still sleeping and it was still dark. I noticed around 12 she was eating off the ground instead of standing up. That is very unlike her. I tried to get her up and she refuses to to put her front feet in front of her to stand .


I would offer her some warm almost hot water to drink in addition to my previous suggestions. If she doesn't like it you can try mixing molasses or honey with it. 
If she doesn't have a winter coat that can also be a sign that something is wrong.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> she hasn't tried to lay flat yet. She seems really alert and looking around. I plucked some leaves off a tree and she really looked like she wanted to try and get up but stopped.


Keep trying! :goodjob:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

When its time to move her...try a large towel under her like a sling to help support her..when you have one person on each side it sure helps our back too. She needs to be in a place out of wind and rain..Food and water easy to reach. Leaves..all she wants..smoothies..hay and chaf. 
Once down and weak its serious. Sending good thoughts!!.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

My fear of pneumonia is growing.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

I have got some good news. I got her up and walking. My daughter suggested when she got off the bus that while I pulled her horns in the front I use a rope wrapped around her back end to get her pulled up. Once she was up I walked her around the pen for a few minutes and took her to the shed and fed her in there. I brought her fresh electrolyte water and freshened her minerals. She is now eating and standing while she eats. I'll go over what I've done today and what I plan on doing.
*gave her 4.5 mls red cell
*gave her 30 ml acv/water mixture
* syringe fed her a smoothie recipe given to me by @happybleats
*she has eaten around 2 lbs of hay so far and a few leaves
*she has both electrolyte water and fresh cold water available to her currently
Tonight or tomorrow I plan on getting her b complex and more probios. Although I know a transfusion would be the best option I can't afford it right now. In the last few months we have had a lot of goat and non goat emergencies.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Keep an eye on that temp...


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> My fear of pneumonia is growing.


im worried about that too. I've kept a check on her temp and it's still good! She is up now.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

happybleats said:


> When its time to move her...try a large towel under her like a sling to help support her..when you have one person on each side it sure helps our back too. She needs to be in a place out of wind and rain..Food and water easy to reach. Leaves..all she wants..smoothies..hay and chaf.
> Once down and weak its serious. Sending good thoughts!!.


The towel probably would've worked better. But I have got her up and moving. Her temp is still good and she is currently standing and eating.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The rule of thumb is that a low temp is the rumen shutting down, and that a high temp is an infection.

However, pneumonia can fool you, because it can plunge before a crisis.

But if you keep taking it, you can see a trend and that will tell you (tell us, also) more than just a single temp at a single moment in time.

You are doing great. Hang in there. I'm glad you were able to move her.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You are doing well..I would get her up every few hours if she is not getting up by her self..muscles soften really quick. sound like you both have a strong will to beat this!! Sending best wishes!!


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## littleheathens (Apr 27, 2019)

I went through an illness, myself, last year that reminds me of this doe. I was very sick with bronchitis- I had a fever for 9 days and had zero appetite and zero energy. It took all of my stamina just to cough all day and go to the bathroom. I told the triage nurse on the phone that I didn't feel it was pneumonia and didn't feel it was wise of me to expend the energy and spread disease by going to the doctor. She gave me good advice! She said to help avoid pneumonia I should get up and walk around, try to go outside each day (okay, I added that bit), and every 2-3 hours to stand up and take 10 really deep breaths. All the advice of keeping them moving a couple times a day is good advice. 

I'd also push raw garlic daily. 

I'm sorry you lost a buckling and had such rotten vet experience. That's hard, for sure. Good luck with the recovery.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

I'm so glad you got her up! I agree with happybleats, make sure you keep making her get up regularly.

I wanted to make a note about the b complex. For anemia recovery the b12 shots should be given daily for at least 30-60 days.

The Fortified b-complex has a lower concentration of b12 than the b-complex Plus. (100mcg/ml)

The b complex Plus is better for anemia recovery because it has more b12 in it. (1000mcg/ml)

This post explains it.
From Onion Creek Ranch:
"Jeffers carries, somewhat sporatically I am told based upon availability, a product that has a relatively high concentration of Vit B12. 1-800-533-3377.

It is Vitamin b-complex plus Item #A2-VC 250 ml $15.99

It has 1000 mcg of vit B 12. Not high as 3000 mcg which I prefer, but you can double or triple the dosage. I use 4 cc per 100 lbs bodyweight when I use prescription B 12 with 3000 mcg concentration.

I am firm believer that B 12 needs to go directly into the bloodstream to help rebuild red blood cells. Oral B 12 gets broken down in the rumen.

You might want to buy a bottle. It is cheap."

I checked on Jeffers and it is out of stock. I have never seen it at TSC. However, it is available on Valley Vet:
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e07802-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5
The regular b complex (check the back, it will say b12 100mcg/ml) is certainly better than nothing. But the b complex plus or the prescription b12 has the right concentration for treating anemia. We just learned about this earlier this year.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

How is she today?


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

I woke up this morning and she is doing terrible. She is laying on her side and crying out. I'll update more after I take the kids to school and see if I can get her to drink anything.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

I did try to get her to drink but she refused warm electrolyte water so it's not lookinging good


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> How is she today?


She is lying on her side and crying out every few minutes. I'm going out now to get her temp and try to give her warm electrolyte water. I feel like now I'm just preparing for the worst. I had hope yesterday but even my husband thinks she's bad. He's usually the optimistic one. I've never had a goat die in the 2 years I've had them and it's really hard. I know I could've prevented this by giving them a cocci preventative and I more than likely wouldn't be dealing with this.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

She is in a lot of pain. I have her wrapped in a blanket. She won't drink. When I lift her head she cries out in pain. I've put a flattened out pillow under her head so it's lifted up a little. Her temperature is 96.3.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You have got to get that temp up. Her rumen is shutting down.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm sorry.How do her lungs sound? Were you able to get her up during the night to move, at all? Has she urinated or defecated at all? Her temperature is critical. Try hard to get that temp up... electic blanket? If you possibly can get her back up on her chest, propping her up with hay bales or something, it really will improve what chances she has.


Kristendanae said:


> I know I could've prevented this by giving them a cocci preventative


Please don't beat yourself up. You don't know this. Something's gone very wrong with her, but you don't even know it is cocci being the villain here. Hugs. You are doing great.


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## whitejerabias (May 6, 2019)

I'm keeping you both in my heart. I'm so impressed with all you're doing for her.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I forgot to say, her rumen has shut down now. She currently can't digest anything solid. Warm sea salt and molasses water can still help, she may like it better than the electrolyte water, because mine didn't really like storebought electrolytes.
Dark, room temperature beer could really help now. I don't know why I didn't think of it yesterday. I'm sorry. Dark beer is good food for sick, down, goats.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I'm sorry.How do her lungs sound? Were you able to get her up during the night to move, at all? Has she urinated or defecated at all? Try hard to get that temp up... electic blanket? If you possibly can get her back up on her chest, propping her up with hay bales or something, it really will improve what chances she has.
> 
> Please don't beat yourself up. You don't know this. Something's gone very wrong with her, but you don't even know it is cocci being the villain here. Hugs. You are doing great.


Thankfully my husband is off today. I'll have to leave in an hour or so unless my client cancels with me again today, which is a possibility bc they did the past 2 days due to illness. I'll get her propped up and get my electric blanket out there. Her breathing sounds ragged and she's grinding her teeth. Her head was slightly downhill when I first found her. It was in a rutted area so her body was higher up. I thought maybe that's why her breathing was ragged. She stayed up for a while yesterday and then I took my kids to soccer. When I got home it was almost 8 and i fed her some leaves and stufff. I got her up for a few minutes to drink but she layed back down. It seemed it was hard for her to get back down. Right now she keeps twisting and tensing her legs. She looks like she is a lot of pain.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I forgot to say, her rumen has shut down now. She currently can't digest anything solid. Warm sea salt and molasses water can still help, she may like it better than the electrolyte water, because mine didn't really like storebought electrolytes.
> Dark, room temperature beer could really help now. I don't know why I didn't think of it yesterday. I'm sorry. Dark beer is good food for sick, down, goats.


Of course my husband only has a few different light beers... does it have to be dark?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Has she urinated or defecated at all?
I'm sorry she's in so much pain.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, it should be a dark rich beer. The lighter beers don't have the same nutritional qualities


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Has she urinated or defecated at all?
> I'm sorry she's in so much pain.


It seems like she has urinated. I didn't see many pellets behind her. So possibly just a little. I forgot to mention yesterday that her poop is huge long oval pellets and has been since she took the last dose of corid. Her last dose of that was October the 8th. My other goats all have normal round pellets and hers just looked so odd.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

I'll give her molasses and the salt water and get her propped up.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

That sounds odd... Do you mean that it comes out looking like an egg? Is it like dog poop?

To be clear, I meant to mix molasses and sea salt together in warm water, so that it is lightly sweet and salty at the same time. And warm. You must get that temp up.

The raspy breathing may well be pneumonia. It can set in so fast when an animal is already under attack and is on the ground. What antibiotics do you have at hand?


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> That sounds odd... Do you mean that it comes out looking like an egg? Is it like dog poop?
> 
> To be clear, I meant to mix molasses and sea salt together in warm water, so that it is lightly sweet and salty at the same time. And warm. You must get that temp up.
> 
> The raspy breathing may well be pneumonia. It can set in so fast when an animal is already under attack and is on the ground. What antibiotics do you have at hand?


I'll try to get a picture. They are 3 times the size of normal pellets and kind of egg shaped I would say. I had two different antibiotics but can't find them anywhere. I cleaned out our hall cabinet recently and misplaced them I guess. I know one is baytril maybe and can't remember the other. I ended up syringe feeding her the molasses sea salt water bc when I propped her up she started writhing in agony it seemed and kept hitting her head on the bench. We may move her to the porch and lay her on the dog bed and try to prop her up again. But I'm 20 minutes from a tsc. It always seems to be out of exactly what i need so I could go to bowling green it'll just be a while.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm so sorry she (and you) are going through this.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh No..Im sorry to hear she's turned for the worse. Cayenne pepper has lots of B vitamins in it and easy for the body to use..I would mix 1/2-1 teaspoon with enough water and drench Some goats love it some hate it but even if she acts out, its not harming her..I may have missed by reading too fast but if her temp is within normal you can give banamine to help with her discomfort. If you feel she is giving up, good temp or not I give a shot to help passing be more comfortable

EDIT: Ok saw temp was sub..the cayenne pepper can help with that too...

Best wishes!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I had been assuming her unhelpful vet wasn't going to be giving out Banamine. I should've asked though.

I hadn't thought about cayenne pepper.

GFS in Bowling Green has large containers of spices (such as cayenne) at a good price.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

mariarose said:


> I hadn't thought about cayenne pepper.


I make a tincture and keep in a dropper bottle...makes the cayenne more readily available to the body but powder works good too..


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I had been assuming her unhelpful vet wasn't going to be giving out Banamine. I should've asked though.
> 
> I hadn't thought about cayenne pepper.
> 
> GFS in Bowling Green has large containers of spices (such as cayenne) at a good price.


There is a vet store in bowling green where you can just go in and ask for what you need. My husband just told me about it. He said he used to get his dog vaccines there. I'm hoping I can get banamine? Is that what I need?


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

banamine helps with pain. No advice other than doing your best to keep her temp up and giving her a strong antibiotic that works for pneumonia. Good luck


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Banamine is a prescription drug, so I doubt you'll be able to get it at that store...
The extremely low temperature makes Banamine problematic, as it lowers temperature. That's why it is good for feverish animals. It is a good pain reliever and anti-inflamatory, but in this case it can cause death because of her extremely low temp...

If your doe is close to death already (and maybe she is, I'm getting out of my depth now) then banamine will relieve some of this terrible pain and let her relax and recoup (perhaps) or will relieve some of this terrible pain and allow her to pass in more peace (perhaps).

I'm at a point where I don't know how much more help I can be. I do know if she is to survive, that temp MUST rise. And it must rise NOW.

If pneumonia has taken over, then she needs drugs, and fast. the best OTC drug for this is Tylan 200. I used to have some, but it JUST left with the last of my goats to Georgia. (DOGGONIT!) And now it is apparently impossible to find. Biomectin, Noromectin, LA-200 are all drugs you can turn to now. My vet (in Glasgow) has given me Baytril before, but he prefers Resflor Gold, which is a combination of Nuflor and Banamine.

I have a partial bottle of that left, and if you want it you are welcome to it. As I said, it is partial, which means it isn't brand new by any means.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Her temp is slowly rising. I had to go get a new heated blanket but here she is.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Banamine is a prescription drug, so I doubt you'll be able to get it at that store...
> The extremely low temperature makes Banamine problematic, as it lowers temperature. That's why it is good for feverish animals. It is a good pain reliever and anti-inflamatory, but in this case it can cause death because of her extremely low temp...
> 
> If your doe is close to death already (and maybe she is, I'm getting out of my depth now) then banamine will relieve some of this terrible pain and let her relax and recoup (perhaps) or will relieve some of this terrible pain and allow her to pass in more peace (perhaps).
> ...


I attached a picture of her in my previous post. We were just going to use the cart to haul her but decided to leave he in it so to keep her propped up. Neither me or my husband heard any odd lung sounds so I guess that's a positive. I've given her a molasses sea salt water mix by syringe and she scarfed it down.she did poop quite a bit last night. We noticed that after picking her up.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Wow - by your description this morning, I thought she would pass. Keep up the epic work. 

You need to get, at bare minimum, a half gallon of fluids into her every day if she is not drinking. Dehydration will bring her down faster than anything at this point. 

It sounds horrendously scary, but watching YouTube videos and getting a stomach tube in her is your best bet. A very wet slurry of alfalfa pellets and hot water would be good to tube in.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Can I give her a smoothie or slurry by syringe now or do I need to wait until her temp is up? She is slowly rising. It got really low. Like 93 before we got her up. Right now it is 97.2


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Wow - by your description this morning, I thought she would pass. Keep up the epic work.
> 
> You need to get, at bare minimum, a half gallon of fluids into her every day if she is not drinking. Dehydration will bring her down faster than anything at this point.
> 
> It sounds horrendously scary, but watching YouTube videos and getting a stomach tube in her is your best bet. A very wet slurry of alfalfa pellets and hot water would be good to tube in.


We thought she was going to pass as well. We honestly contemplated putting her down. We figured she was crying out maybe because her older doeling and buckling were nearby and they were calling out for her.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Myself, I'd wait until she reaches 100. You don't have to wait for the warm electrolyte water, medication, and the Probios, though.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Myself, I'd wait until she reaches 100. You don't have to wait for the warm electrolyte water, medication, and the Probios, though.


Ok. I also got some b12 paste for horses bc that was the only thing I could find. I picked up probios since I was out too. It looks like she's chewing cud but I haven't actually seen her regurgitating so it could be she's grinding her teeth. It looks more like her cheeks were full though


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

What meds or antibiotics do I need. We are pretty sure that she doesn't have pneumonia, yet anyway. I may have my husband go to the vet bc if I have to deal with their attitudes right now I'd probably just bust out crying.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

mariarose said:


> The extremely low temperature makes Banamine problematic, as it lowers temperature. That's why it is good for feverish animals. It is a good pain reliever and anti-inflamatory, but in this case it can cause death because of her extremely low temp...


yes...this is why temp must me normal before giving Banamine for pain. I have used it to help one in their last hour to pass more peaceful..it does help .


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Would the injectable b12 for sheep cows and pigs be ok to give her. It seems to be in stock at tsc within driving distance. I may call and double check bc I don't want to waste my time if they don't have it.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> What meds or antibiotics do I need. We are pretty sure that she doesn't have pneumonia, yet anyway. I may have my husband go to the vet bc if I have to deal with their attitudes right now I'd probably just bust out crying.


I just saw this posted on a different thread:



happybleats said:


> Draxxin is 1 cc per 100# last I checked. It's given 2 times 7 days apart. Draxxin hits the lungs, which is what you need..with you loosing goats to pneumonia I would also do Nuflor ( 3 cc per 100#) days 2-5 then booster Draxxin on day 7. Supporting them with garlic is an excellent way to help boost their immune system. You can make a paste with garlic and olive oil


I would treat for pnuemonia as well as read everyone's posts carefully and follow the directions. Keep up the good work. Make sure to check on her a lot even during the night.
I know the vet is not good but draxxin is prescription. I don't know about nuflor but I think it is. You may need stomach tubing and/or subq fluids from the vet too.

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/pneumonia06.html

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/feedinghydrating.html

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/hydrationnutriti.html

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/stomachtubing.html


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> Would the injectable b12 for sheep cows and pigs be ok to give her. It seems to be in stock at tsc within driving distance. I may call and double check bc I don't want to waste my time if they don't have it.


Yes. B complex plus is better but any b12 is better than nothing (see my previous post) If you post pics of the back we can tell you how much to give. It is a subq injection.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Her temperature has risen a half degree in the last hour. She is now drinking very warm electrolyte water.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Give Cayenne pepper will help warm her up too


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

She seems eager to try and eat so when she warms up enough I hopefully won't have to tube feed her. She hasn't cried out in pain anymore at all since we put her in the wagon with the heated blanket. She's keeping her head up and watching us and the chickens.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes the B-Complex is not labeled for goats at TSC, but it is good for goats.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

She is up to 99.4.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Give Cayenne pepper will help warm her up too


The cayenne pepper seemed to work


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

She drank a little more electrolyte water. I'd say she had around 1/4 to a 1/3 of a gallon all together. I'll check her temperature in a few more minutes and hopefully start feeding her.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

I only have 6 mm syringes for injections. I can get more or a different size. What size needles do I need? I have 22 gauge on hand.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I prefer 18-16 gauge. No longer than 1 inch (3/4 in is my usual purchase, but I'll use 1 inch fine. 22 is too small for antibiotics, and everything else can go throught the 18 gauge just fine.

I also use 6 ml and 12 ml syringes the most.

Be sure you get luer lock syringes, they are by far the most secure.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> I only have 6 mm syringes for injections. I can get more or a different size. What size needles do I need? I have 22 gauge on hand.


22 gauge is good for thin stuff like b12.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

mariarose said:


> I prefer 18-16 gauge. No longer than 1 inch (3/4 in is my usual purchase, but I'll use 1 inch fine. 22 is too small for antibiotics, and everything else can go throught the 18 gauge just fine.
> 
> I also use 6 ml and 12 ml syringes the most.
> 
> Be sure you get luer lock syringes, they are by far the most secure.


:up:


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Great! Thanks everyone for all the help. Her temp is 99.9


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good advice.

Her temp is still low, hopefully you can get it up more.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> Good advice.
> 
> Her temp is still low, hopefully you can get it up more.


It's still continuing to rise little by little!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Kristendanae said:


> The cayenne pepper seemed to work


You can give every 15 minutes until you see improvement..


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

happybleats said:


> You can give every 15 minutes until you see improvement..


^^^yes.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

happybleats said:


> You can give every 15 minutes until you see improvement..


Ok. I've given it twice but I will give it more often now.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Just so you know what temp you are aiming for, 101.5 is considered the low end of normal. I know you know this. I'm just putting it out there in case it gets buried under all the new stuff you've had to learn so very quickly (and done marvelously, I should add)


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Her temperature is now 101.5 exactly! We are leaving to go to my kids parent teacher conference, then to pick of the b12 they have in stock.ill post a picture of the bottle when I get back because I have no idea how much to give her and how often.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

She is still under the heated blanket and is eating hay and just drank some electrolyte water. She is acting very down. I'm guessing she's calling for her baby. He is in the pen with the other mom and 2 doelings. The mom isn't being aggressive towards him but I may keep him inside tonight. He is also feeling better. I've given him .75 ml of red cell for 3 days and today his tail has been up instead of down.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

She shouldn't need the heated blanket now. If you keep it on, be sure she can get out if she needs to. You don't want her to cook, especially if a fever spikes. (It can happen, this last temp shot up from 99.9)


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> She shouldn't need the heated blanket now. If you keep it on, be sure she can get out if she needs to. You don't want her to cook, especially if a fever spikes. (It can happen, this last temp shot up from 99.9)


I'll put it on low while we are gone.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

I think it would be good for her to see her baby if you think she is calling for him. Stress is not good for a sick goat.

*I would still treat for pneumonia per my previous post (quoted below):*



21goaties said:


> I just saw this posted on a different thread:
> 
> happybleats said: ↑
> Draxxin is 1 cc per 100# last I checked. It's given 2 times 7 days apart. Draxxin hits the lungs, which is what you need..with you loosing goats to pneumonia I would also do Nuflor ( 3 cc per 100#) days 2-5 then booster Draxxin on day 7. Supporting them with garlic is an excellent way to help boost their immune system. You can make a paste with garlic and olive oil
> ...


*As well as treating for anemia and identifying parasites:*



21goaties said:


> I would recommend reading this page : http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/anemiaingoats.html
> 
> l would do the following:
> 
> ...





21goaties said:


> Replamin is typically not in store at TSC, you have to order it site to store, or you can order it from other places online. We get it from Jeffers
> 
> https://www.jefferspet.com/products/replamin-gel-plus
> 
> ...





21goaties said:


> I'm so glad you got her up! I agree with happybleats, make sure you keep making her get up regularly.
> 
> I wanted to make a note about the b complex. For anemia recovery the b12 shots should be given daily for at least 30-60 days.
> 
> ...


Good luck!! (console)


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

What is the best spot to give a b12 shot? And intramuscular or subcutaneous? Sorry, someone may have said it and I'm looking over it. I'm planning on rereading everything tonight.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I give B-Complex shots SQ, in the skin next to the elbow I'd imaging the B-12 would be the same kind of injection.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I give B-Complex shots SQ, in the skin next to the elbow I'd imaging the B-12 would be the same kind of injection.


It is vitamin b complex. I'm just crazy.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

How much should I give. The b1 is 100 mg and the b12 is 100mcg


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Here is a picture of the bottle.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

I ended up doing 4 ml. I looked on an old post and figured I'd just start with that. I put her buckling with her. I'll go out in a little while and check on her and feed her a "smoothie" and electrolyte water. She ate some alfalfa and leaves earlier before we left. She is using the bathroom. Both urine and her still odd shape pellets. I'll check her temperature again too. I turned her blanket on low and put it on the back half of her body since she was in normal range and she is inside a building and it's warmer in there than it is outside.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

B complex is 4 cc per 100#..and its water soluble so even a bit too much is fine..she will pee out what she does need. keep up the amazing care you are giving!


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Yes, you can't overdose b vitamins. 
Dosage details are in previous posts and some of the links.
@toth boer goats said for an anemic goat you can give b complex in amounts of 12cc(ml), 3 times a day. But even more than that wouldn't hurt.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I usually give 6 ml, because I use mostly 6 ml syringes... LOL


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

21goaties said:


> Yes, you can't overdose b vitamins.
> Dosage details are in previous posts and some of the links.
> @toth boer goats said for an anemic goat you can give b complex in amounts of 12cc(ml), 3 times a day. But even more than that wouldn't hurt.


Thanks. The next dose I'll give 12ccs bc I did get that size syringe. I'm going back through and rereading everything bc I'm really scatterbrained right now.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Her temperature is 101.6 so I turned her blanket up to medium heat. She drank another 12ish ounces of electrolyte water on top of what she has had today and she ate some leaves and a little hay.


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## littleheathens (Apr 27, 2019)

Kristendanae said:


> What meds or antibiotics do I need. We are pretty sure that she doesn't have pneumonia, yet anyway. I may have my husband go to the vet bc if I have to deal with their attitudes right now I'd probably just bust out crying.


You poor thing- that's not how it should be in a crisis situation! You are doing great.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Ok, so this morning she is alive but she is keeping her head to the side. Kind of resting it on her stomach. Now I have read that's a sign of dehydration but she has consistently been drinking warm electrolyte water, like guzzling it. I keep pulling it up so she can drink but she puts it right back down and kind of cries out. We are planning on continuing to give her b complex injections every 6-8 hours for at least the next few days. I'm planning on getting her out of the wagon she is in today and hopefully get her to stand while she eats but that may be wishful thinking. Her temperature is in the normal range and was all through the night with the help of the electric blanket. Even though she was in the building it was a very cold night. Probably got down to 35.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

So what has she had for dewormers and antibiotics in the past week? And what is her FAMACHA score?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> Ok, so this morning she is alive but she is keeping her head to the side. Kind of resting it on her stomach. Now I have read that's a sign of dehydration but she has consistently been drinking warm electrolyte water, like guzzling it. I keep pulling it up so she can drink but she puts it right back down and kind of cries out. We are planning on continuing to give her b complex injections every 6-8 hours for at least the next few days. I'm planning on getting her out of the wagon she is in today and hopefully get her to stand while she eats but that may be wishful thinking. Her temperature is in the normal range and was all through the night with the help of the electric blanket. Even though she was in the building it was a very cold night. Probably got down to 35.


That's good that her temp is staying normal.

Are you able to get the treatments for pneumonia? Read this page: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/pneumonia06.html

That is good to keep up the b complex shots. Make sure to also be giving red cell (daily), probiotics (2x a day), and food (daily). Previous posts have dosages/more advice. Alfalfa pellets soaked in water can be syringe fed, and hopefully she is eating hay. Leaves are very good also.

That's not good that she is keeping her head to the side.

Read this page: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html

If she is showing ANY of those symptoms then you need to start aggressively treating for both polio/listeriosis ASAP.

That is good to try to get her up. Even if she can't stand hold her up with a towel regularly to keep her from losing function in her legs.

Good luck! You are doing great, keep it up!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Massage and move her legs a bit to help loosen and warm the muscles, then slip a large towel under her like a sling to support her before attempting to stand her. You are doing all you can for her, now she has to fight as well. Don't forget cayenne pepper ; )


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Her electric blanket got unplugged which is not good. She dipped back below 100. She also peed a lot in the night and her towel were soake so I'm sure that didn't help matters any. All her stuff is dry now, her blanket is on, she's had a b complex shot, and now we are on the hunt for penicillin for possible listeriosis since she is trying to tuck her head in an odd position. I don't think it's that but I read in anoth linked article @21goaties linked that it could be used for pneumonia too. We are also going to try to get nuflor or some of the others mentioned. I feel like I'm back at square one now bc of her temperature drop and her towels being soaked. I'm going to get puppy pads to keep under her bottom so I can change them often. I'm worried it could be polio too but we are giving her the b complex shot every 6 hours so hopefully if that's the issue that will take care of it


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Thiamine. Ask your vet for thiamine. Tell him it is for goat polio.
Penicillin isn't great for pneumonia, too broad spectrum. Ask your vet for some Draxxin. He'll want to know your goat's weight. You should get 2 injections.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Thiamine. Ask your vet for thiamine. Tell him it is for goat polio.
> Penicillin isn't great for pneumonia, too broad spectrum. Ask your vet for some Draxxin. He'll want to know your goat's weight. You should get 2 injections.


Thanks, I'll let my husband know. He had to go to work for a few hours but after said he'd go to a few vets in bowling green.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

If you have to you can try reading off the articles to the vet (tell the name of the site, they may look it up) and describing why you need what you need and the dosage. I did that before with a dog and cat vet when I needed meds for a rabbit. It's worth a try. You don't want to get the wrong thing or a too small dosage, but then again something is better than nothing.

You can calculate her weight without a scale:
http://www.infovets.com/books/smrm/C/C098.htm


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If it is listeria though, high doses of penicillin is what cures it. Every 6 hours.

I honestly would get a knowledgeable goat vet out to access her. 
Tell them it is an emergency.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Sick goats often pull their head flank...look for other symptoms before throwing too much at her..are her eyes twitching, tail flicking, since she is down you cant see if she circles..but look for any neurological issues..but as Pam said..Penicillin is whats needed for listeriosis. 1 cc per 10# sub Q every 6 hours along with 500 MG worth of Thiamine every 6 hours..Dexamenthasone (1 cc per 20# IM once a day) or Banamine (1 cc per 100# sub Q once a day for 3 days then re assess the need) 
I agree with Pam as well for getting a vet on board. She is critical. Best wishes


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Well, I just talked to a vet. My husband went to one and let me talk to him. He was just kept saying i wormed her 2 weeks too late. Wouldn't listen to what I was saying. I told him I think she may have pneumonia or a thiamine deficiency(goat polio) he said I had a worm problem...I'm so frustrated.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

The vet wouldn't listen to what I said I needed. The only thing that showed in her decals in the past 2 months was coccidia even after the first treatment and tapes but not even a high number. And I've hit her with safeguard and ivermectin. He just kept interrupting me and saying I wormed her too late


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Ugh...well if that's what he thinks then why keep repeating it? This is an immediate problem. Did he offer any treatment advice?
Can you get a vet to come to you?


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

21goaties said:


> Ugh...well if that's what he thinks then why keep repeating it? This is an immediate problem. Did he offer any treatment advice?
> Can you get a vet to come to you?


It wasn't an actual vet. It was a vet store where you just get discounted meds and stuff. He is on his way to an actual vet to see if we can get someone out. I tried explaining I treated for coccidia twice bc the first time didn't work. He gave me a pill called respond and an iron injection. Matt said he talked to a girl there too that said we were throwing too much at her... idk what she's meant by that. She is eating and drinking on her own and I've given her the bcomplex, Cayenne pepper, probios, and molasses sea salt water. And when I give her those things with a syringe she seems to enjoy it. She isn't fighting it.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

I'll just make a trip to Glasgow tomorrow and see the vet @mariarose suggested and tell them in person all her symptoms and her past fecals and her treatment so far.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Ok. Good luck.
Make sure to keep up the treatments with what you have including getting her up to stretch legs. Massaging and rubbing, moving them as well. That is great she is taking the oral stuff.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

21goaties said:


> Ok. Good luck.
> Make sure to keep up the treatments with what you have including getting her up to stretch legs. Massaging and rubbing, moving them as well. That is great she is taking the oral stuff.


I got her out of the wagon this morning and sat her on her legs for a bit while I cleaned her bedding. She seems worse today, not better. I was really hoping to get an antibiotic. He said the only one he'd be willing to give me is la200. I think that was the name. I told him my fear of pneumonia. He said, nope worm problem. Hopefully we can get someone out today. If not I'm scared she won't make it. With her temperature too low I don't see me transporting her.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im sorry that vet or vet store owner would not hear what you had to say..its so frustrating.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> I got her out of the wagon this morning and sat her on her legs for a bit while I cleaned her bedding. She seems worse today, not better. I was really hoping to get an antibiotic. He said the only one he'd be willing to give me is la200. I think that was the name. I told him my fear of pneumonia. He said, nope worm problem. Hopefully we can get someone out today. If not I'm scared she won't make it. With her temperature too low I don't see me transporting her.


From here: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/pneumonia06.html
_
"If access to prescription antibiotics is not available, then you will have to use over-the-counter penicillin or oxytetracycline 200 mg/ml (LA200 or generic equivalent) Penicillin should be dosed at 5 cc's per 100 pounds body weight for five consecutive days, using a luer-lock syringe with an 18-gauge needle and injecting SQ over the ribs. I dose oxytetracycline 200 mg/ml using five (5) cc per 100 pounds bodyweight given SQ over the ribs with an 18 gauge needle for five consecutive days.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/zoetis-liquamycin-la-200-250-ml

I am believer in using prescription antibiotics to treat pneumonia in goats. Nuflor, Nuflor Gold, and Excenel RTU are far more effective than over-the-counter products and are worth the extra expense. My experience raising goats since 1990 has taught me that single-shot or every-other-day injections of antibiotics are not effective with goats.

If present, chest congestion can be relieved by giving an expectorant-antihistamine-decongestant orally to the sick goat twice daily at a dosage of approximately six cc's per 100 pounds bodyweight.Children's antihistamine/decongestant/expectorant syrups (Robitussin DM) may have to be used since Expectahist is no longer available unless your vet will have a compounding pharmacist make it for you.

Keep the sick goat in a shaded, dry, free-from-draft location with plenty of fresh water, electrolytes, free-choice grass hay, and green leaves. No sacked feed. If the animal is not drinking water, orally drench with electrolytes (Bounce Back or ReSorb). If dehydration is severe, sub-cutaneous (SQ) delivery of Lactated Ringers Solution (vet prescription) or IV delivery by a vet is necessary. Refer to my articles about (a) dehydration and (b) how to make and use a stomach tube on the Articles page at www.tennesseemeatgoats.com. A 100 pound goat needs one gallon (3,840 cc) of fluids in small amounts over a 24 hour period. You cannot syringe by mouth enough fluids into a goat daily, and if you try, you can cause the goat to aspirate fluid into its lungs and kill it. Stomach tubing is easy and much safer.

Never forget the beneficial effect of green leaves(the goat's natural food). Oak, elm, and hackberry are favorites; do not feed cherry leaves, as they are toxic to goats. Azaleas, lantana, and other "ornamental" plants are also toxic to goats. Fresh green leaves are easily digestible. Don't try to feed grain concentrates to a sick goat. The rumen is *off* and cannot properly digest grains. If the goat is off feed, give Vitamin B-1 (thiamine) injections IM or SQ every 12 hours dosing at 4 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight. Brain function depends upon the availability of thiamine, and it takes a healthy rumen to produce it.

You can follow up all antibiotic treatments with an oral probiotic, but use it after the antibiotic regimen has been completed. Jeffers at 1-800-533-3377 or www.jefferslivestock.com carries a variety of ruminant probiotics."
_
From here: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html
_"Listeriosis can be brought on by feeding silage/haylage, suddenly changing type and kind of feed (grain or hay), parasites, dramatic weather changes, and advanced stages of pregnancy. The encephalitic form is most common, causing inflammation of the nerves in the goat's brain stem. Symptoms include some or all of the following: depression, decreased appetite, fever, leaning or stumbling or moving in one direction only, head pulled to flank with rigid neck (similar to symptoms of tetanus and advanced dehydration), facial paralysis on one side, blindness, "slack jaw," and drooling. Diarrhea is present only in the strain of Listeriosis which causes abortions and pregnancy toxemia. Listeriosis can be mistaken for rabies. Immediate treatment is critical. There is no time to waste with Listeriosis. Recovery is more difficult and time-consuming than Goat Polio. A goat can go blind and completely recover its eyesight and overall health if proper treatment is provided; such treatment can take days or even weeks, depending upon the severity of the illness and how quickly treatment is started."
"TREATMENT involves administration of high doses of procaine penicillin (300,000 International Units) every six hours on a 24-hour cycle. Higher-than-normal dosage of procaine penicillin is needed to cross the blood- brain barrier to maintain sufficiently high levels of antibiotic in the blood stream to kill the bacteria. I use 10 cc procaine penicillin per 100 pounds bodyweight (double the normal dosage). I give procaine penicillin SQ over the ribs with an 18 gauge needle so the goat doesn't become a pin cushion from repeated injections and try not to give more than 6 cc per injection site, so I divide up high dosages. I also give Vitamin B 1 (Thiamine) injections, dosing at 5 cc per 100 pounds liveweight for 100 mg/ml thiamine every 6 hours. I start giving thiamine into the muscle (IM) and then change to SQ injections after five days. Thiamine of 100 mg/ml strength is required. The only injectable over-the-counter product with 100 mg/ml of thiamine is Fortified Vitamin B Complex. Prescription thiamine (Vitamin B1) is available only from a vet. Injections get the medications into the blood stream faster, and quick treatment is critical with this disease. Thiamine is an appropriate addition to treatment of any sick goat. Very Important: Continue procaine penicillin and thiamine injections for 24 hours after the last symptom has disappeared to avoid a relapse.

Dosing Procaine Penicillin and Thiamine (Vitamin B1)

Procaine Pencillin: 10 cc per 100 lbs. bodyweight every 6 hours on a 24 hour cycle
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/durvet-penicillin-injectable-500cc

Thiamine: 4 cc per 100 lbs. bodyweight every 6 hours on a 24 hour cycle

Dexamethasone (prescription cortico-steroid) injections are used to reduce brain stem swelling. Dexamethasone will induce labor in pregnant does, but the doe is likely to abort anyhow, so ending the pregnancy will help save the sick doe. Dexamethasone dosage is 6 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight given IM and in decreasing amounts daily. Dexamethasone must be tapered off rather than stopped abruptly. I don't use Dexamethasone on young kids under six months of age except under the direction of my veterinarian. Steroids suppress the immune system, so they must be used only when necessary.

Dosing Dexamethasone

100 pound goat 200 pound goat

6 cc Day 1 12 cc Day 1

5 cc Day 2 10 cc Day 2

4 cc Day 3 8 cc Day 3

3 cc Day 4 6 cc Day 4

2 cc Day 5 4 cc Day 5

1 cc Day 6 2 cc Day 6

Adjust dosages for other weights. The goal is to finish the Dex injections in six days."
_


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

Hey, I just wanted to let everyone know that Duck, my sick goat, has taken a severe turn for the worst. We started her on antibiotic last night but before that her rumen shut down and I couldn't get it going again like I did the day before. I found a new vet who actually lives within a few miles of me and she seemed extremely knowledgeable and kind. I basically broke down in her office this morning. And thankfully they didn't think I was crazy. We agreed that she'd come look at her but we are both in agreement that since she is grinding her teeth and I can't keep her temperature up even with a heated blanket that euthanasia is best. Thank you guys so much for all your help. You guys had so much great advice. Next time I have an issue though I'll get this new vet out here and not dilly dally. I really just don't want my favorite girl to suffer anymore.


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## whitejerabias (May 6, 2019)

I’m so sorry. You worked so hard. She knows how much you care.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

:imsorry::goatkiss:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry you lost her but very happy that you found a new vet.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

I'm so sorry.








I hope her kid will be ok.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Awe...I get that decision and know it wasn't one made easy. ((hugs))


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

:imsorry: You were brave to make that heart wrenching decision. At times, all that could be done has already been tried and a goat still reaches a point of no return. They somehow communicate to those that love them the end is near and it's time to let go. Ending the suffering once it becomes apparent is an act of mercy, kindness and unselfish love. :hug:


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> All the above advice is great. But you also need to find a new vet. Obviously the current one only cares about taking your money and cheating you with no intention of giving proper advice on goats.


That's so common. 
We are fortunate to have a clinic of 3 vets that will see goats...one is super but, rarely available because he's so popular...one is "OK" but, could use a bit more 'people skills' the third vet, I would rather not have around my animals...at all. NONE of them are afraid to charge you the maximum!

After the first time we used them, I've learned to ALWAYS contact the vets office for an emailed quote/estimate prior to scheduling an appointment. I know they think I am a total PAIN for asking them to do this BUT, doing so has saved me from being over-charged a few times because I had it in writing. One of the vets (the third one mentioned above) tried to charge for double the time she was here (at the farm) and I had to dispute it to get a refund. I was really glad I had the emailed quote for those services to back me up.

For Emergency/After Hours issues...all bets are off...the costs are always prohibitive and leave a lasting mark in the bank account.


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## moonspinner (Oct 5, 2007)

This saga was so heartbreaking and I feel for you because I've been through it. It would be beneficial after all your heroic efforts to know exactly what issue(s) she had.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

@HMNS - thanks for those insights on asking for estimates beforehand. That is a really great idea and I appreciate the detail you went into. I'm always hesitant to ask for prices on such services. I do think most veterinarians are not trying to hose their clients but there is no two ways about it. Veterinary care is extremely expensive.


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## Darla M (Jul 31, 2019)

NigerianNewbie said:


> What dosages safeguard was given, paste or liguid, when, and for how many days? What dosages of CoRid/marquis did you use and when? What herbal remedy/combination were you using; how much and how often? How much did the treated goat(s) weigh?
> 
> Was electrolyte water, probiotics, B Complex and/or a hay only diet provided during the periods of diarrhea?
> 
> ...





mariarose said:


> Oh no. What's her temperature right now, and has she had any B-Complex injections? What about Probios? Can you get some Probios?
> If she's down, a copper bolus isn't going to help, it takes too long to start working. Have you any Replamin Gel? That is very fast acting. And it also leaves the body very quickly, so it is pretty safe.
> 
> Just a thought, how do her lungs sound? Pneumonia is a real danger when she's already under attack...


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Hey, @Darla M 
Welcome to TGS
Did you have a question about what we said?


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

I was going to make a new post but my issue now i feel has to do with my deseased goat as well. A few minutes ago I was checking famachas and inspecting poop and noticed that a few of the pellets are black and a bit pointed. If no one knows what I'm describing I can get a picture tomorrow. It's dark now. Now I've read in the last few days that it's a sign of liver flukes?! And possibly won't show on a fecal! I had never noticed duck having poop like that, hers was diarrhea off and on for the 6 weeks before she died. But I feel that along with her cocci issues she could've had liver fluke and that's why her eyelids were so pale. Everyone is good now and i have been checking daily. Has anyone dealt with liver flukes? And would anything herbal help it? How do you know for sure if your goats have liver flukes if it doesn't show in a fecal?


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

The goats do have access to a pond but have never seen them anywhere near it. Now, that doesn't mean they don't ever drink from it. They do have multiple pails of fresh water and a trough that I see them drinking from often.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> I was going to make a new post but my issue now i feel has to do with my deseased goat as well. A few minutes ago I was checking famachas and inspecting poop and noticed that a few of the pellets are black and a bit pointed. If no one knows what I'm describing I can get a picture tomorrow. It's dark now. Now I've read in the last few days that it's a sign of liver flukes?! And possibly won't show on a fecal! I had never noticed duck having poop like that, hers was diarrhea off and on for the 6 weeks before she died. But I feel that along with her cocci issues she could've had liver fluke and that's why her eyelids were so pale. Everyone is good now and i have been checking daily. Has anyone dealt with liver flukes? And would anything herbal help it? How do you know for sure if your goats have liver flukes if it doesn't show in a fecal?


Liver flukes present with anemia as well. Is the goat(s) anemic?

If you get a sedimentation fecal, sometimes you can get fluke eggs that show up.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Liver flukes present with anemia as well. Is the goat(s) anemic?
> 
> If you get a sedimentation fecal, sometimes you can get fluke eggs that show up.


Unfortunately I don't know which goat it's from. None of my goats are anemic. Very dark pink eyelids on all of them... that's why I'm so confused. I'll have to check everyone's poop individually in the next few day. But it's definitely an odd shaped poop. I was just reading about the signs and noticed that the pellets fit the description. I'm extremely worried. I did read that ivermec plus is the only thing that kills them.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Kristendanae said:


> Unfortunately I don't know which goat it's from. None of my goats are anemic. Very dark pink eyelids on all of them... that's why I'm so confused. I'll have to check everyone's poop individually in the next few day. But it's definitely an odd shaped poop. I was just reading about the signs and noticed that the pellets fit the description. I'm extremely worried. I did read that ivermec plus is the only thing that kills them.


There are dietary things that can cause that. However, you know if a goat is flukey. Unthrifty, possibly diarrhea, underweight (VERY underweight), failure to thrive, anemia, bottlejaw. Very bad.

If all your goats look healthy I'd give everybody a round of probios and just check them often for anemia or any other symptoms.


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## Kristendanae (Aug 29, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> There are dietary things that can cause that. However, you know if a goat is flukey. Unthrifty, possibly diarrhea, underweight (VERY underweight), failure to thrive, anemia, bottlejaw. Very bad.
> 
> If all your goats look healthy I'd give everybody a round of probios and just check them often for anemia or any other symptoms.


 ok, well I'm not seeing any other signs. Just the poop right now. I've been worried to death about them lately. Also, what dietary things could cause it? Mainly they have been foraging and aren't eating as much of their hay.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Just to be clear, the Liver Fluke is not contracted from drinking out of the pond. It is contracted by grazing wet meadows/wet vegetation usually near ponds or wetlands where snails have dropped the larvae form of the fluke.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ivomec PLUS and Valbazen address liver fluke as well as most herbals. I would collect fresh fecal of the odd shape poops and send in for liver fluke testing.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

A fecal test for worms and cocci is wise.


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