# BoSe dosage for small kid



## bessmiller

Buttercream's baby has a back leg that is a bit bowed in. It may clear up in a couple days, but just in case I thought perhaps I should giver her a dose of BoSe. Our area is lacking in selenium, so I bought some BoSe in case I would need to supplement. I believe I read somewhere that 1/2cc is the correct dose for kids, but I wanted to be sure. Hana weighs 5.2lbs--would 1/2cc be too much for her, or a good dose?


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## Maggie

1/2 cc for standard size goats. 1/4cc for minis.


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## bessmiller

Thanks, Maggie! I was thinking 1/2cc might be too much.


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## freedomstarfarm

BoSe is dosed 1cc per 40#
5# kid would get .11cc just over a tenth
10# kid would get .25 or 1/4 cc
I have heard that some do a min dose like 1/4 no matter the goats weight but with something like this that can so easily be overdosed I like to err on the side of caution and always give the right amount for the right weight. 
A wise goat raiser once told me "You can always do a second dose if you don't see improvement; you cant take bake the higher dose if it poisons the kid".


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## bessmiller

> BoSe is dosed 1cc per 40#
> 5# kid would get .11cc just over a tenth
> 10# kid would get .25 or 1/4 cc
> I have heard that some do a min dose like 1/4 no matter the goats weight but with something like this that can so easily be overdosed I like to err on the side of caution and always give the right amount for the right weight.
> A wise goat raiser once told me "You can always do a second dose if you don't see improvement; you cant take bake the higher dose if it poisons the kid".


Thank you for the wise words. I haven't dosed her yet, but I'll make sure and give her .11cc. I would definitely rather err on the minimal side and have to give her another dose.


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## freedomstarfarm

:thumb: 
Like I said I know many do a min dose no matter the kids weight but not me.


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## KW Farms

Yes, be very careful dosing...young kids especially. I also use minimal dose when it comes to kids.


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## Guest

My kids always get 1ml at birth (minis 1/2) then a second dose if needed Bose is pretty hard to OD. But yes, you can always give more if needed.


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## freedomstarfarm

J-Basqo Nubians said:


> Bose is pretty hard to OD. But yes, you can always give more if needed.


I disagree here. BoSe is a Selenium product and you can OD when too much is given thus causing a toxic affect. How much is needed to cause OD would vary since all animals have some level of selenium in the feed the ingest resulting in varying amounts in their bodies. Not safe to assume that you can't OD a animal on it. Just my 2cents


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## toth boer goats

> I disagree here. BoSe is a Selenium product and you can OD when too much is given thus causing a toxic affect. How much is needed to cause OD would vary since all animals have some level of selenium in the feed the ingest resulting in varying amounts in their bodies. Not safe to assume that you can't OD a animal on it. Just my 2cents


 I have to agree here...Bo-se can be over dosed very easily....be careful when giving it and remember for some goats... they may be getting it through their minerals as well.... so under dosing a bit.. is better than over dosing it.... :wink:


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## KW Farms

I agree with Pam and Logan. It IS EASY to overdose. You have to be careful when using it. Overdosing BoSe or selenium is much much worse than underdosing.


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## Guest

Amy one care to share an OD experience ?


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## toth boer goats

> Amy one care to share an OD experience ?


 I have never experienced it .....that is why.... it is crucial to not OD any goat..... it can kill them... :wink:


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## KW Farms

Me neither...I am very cautious in using it. Especially on small kids. I like this artical about it: http://www.jackmauldin.com/health/selenium.htm 
Here's something from another article: Selenium is very toxic and an overdose can kill animals quickly; therefore, one must follow directions very carefully.
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/nutri ... gmys.shtml


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## Guest

Ok, Forsure going to re phrase that original post, I was typing on my phone and it is hard so the replies tend to be short and this is an important subject. TO MUCH SE is TOXIC (bose is NOT STRAIGHT selenium), we have just always done 1/2-1 ml on wonky legged kids (this is VERY MUCH matter of opinion and OUR management and we never expect anyone to just do what we do because I said so. Do your research, draw your own conclusions, we simply intended to state our experience with bose). 1ml of bose in my experiance and OPINION does not contain enough selenim to sock anything dead. Also WE NEVER EVER give our preggers bose is as SELENIUM IS know to cause abortion in sheep(clinically proven, I have heard of cases in goats but no official studies were conducted and even tho it was straigh selenium and not bose we like to be safe anyway). We always wait until right before kidding 
Also super important is NOT to confuse selenium def with Copper for Vit E def as they all can go hand in hand, and present very similar symptoms (also thiamine deficiency and B vit deficiencies can be confused as well). If you dose a copper def kid with too much Sel, that could be toxic if they are carrying enough Sel. 
Sel is needed to absorb and utilize your Vit E and vise versa. So, when you have a symptom, go over your entire management, and be sure you are giving correct treatments and not just blindly dump something in a goat cause Patina (or name your goat friend) told you to


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## Guest

Here is another good article By Sue Reith about bose. Like I said, do your research, draw your own conclusions 
Hope the link works, couldnt find it posted anywhere else other than saved in the archives of DGI



> Had to remove the link, please refer to the rules, promoting another open forum (goat related)


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## toth boer goats

Bo-se yes... can be toxic.. if given too much to a particular goat....

This is what I recommend....For smaller breeds ...they only need 1/4 cc or less depending on size....with the larger breed kids like boers.... I give 1/2 cc to them...and that is all they need .... this is what works for me...
however.. if 1/2-1 ml...works for your goats and they are OK with it....then... that is good ... keep it that way....



> Do your research, draw your own conclusions, we simply intended to state our experience with bose).


Please..don't feel upset ...understand that... not every goat is the same... or the area that the goats live in.... we do need to be careful ...with advice to others... that may not... be in a deficient area or ...are getting loose salts and minerals .... so...when giving a larger dose of Bo-se to a baby or even a older goat... may harm their goat.... you see 1cc of Bo-se would be too high for my babies....it is deadly....if not use correctly....

I know breeders that give Bo-se weeks before Does kid and never have aborted.....Goats may not of been studied...but I never heard of it happening... not sure about sheep ...I do not own them....

Remember....we are talking about Bo-se...and it can indeed be toxic to goats ...
I cannot tell anyone ...to give a goat a lot to start..it can be given in smaller doses at a time ...in between doses... to get the goat healthy... if it is super deficient...once you give to much .....you cannot take it back....

We are not confusing any drug here ...
Thiamine deficiency is a vitamin deficiency and cannot be over dosed...the goat will pee out what the body does not use....

Copper is another drug ...that can be toxic but ...this Topic is about Bo-se...

It is OK... with what and how you want to treat your goats...I respect that....but ....we do have give the warnings on these things.... :wink:


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## Jessica84

I dont know how bad this kids leg is or anything, but I had one kid that had a very small bow and I left he alone because it wasnt making him not move around or nurse and he came out of it within a day or two. I just bring that up if your worried of ODing, your goat, your choice, its just another option.


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## toth boer goats

> Here is another good article By Sue Reith about bose. Like I said, do your research, draw your own conclusions
> Hope the link works, couldnt find it posted anywhere else other than saved in the archives of DGI





> Please note
> [quote:2sg7qg6p]You put up a link to another goat forum, sorry, I had to remove it, Please refer to the Rules section.
> 
> Members wishing to promote another open forum (goat related) need to do so via pm or email unless you have the ok of The Goat Spot's owner/Administrator.


[/quote:2sg7qg6p]


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## Guest

Sorry sorry, wasnt trying to promote anything, just where the article was when I googled it, My appologies!!


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## toth boer goats

No problem.... :thumb: 

You can copy and paste the info...but leave out the other forum info please... :wink:


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## Guest

Would it be acceptable to cut and paste the article (which is pertaining to bose, would be happy to start a new thread to, it is a very good read )


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## Guest

Ok here is the article/reply from Sue Reith, it is in response to an email sent to her privately from a goat breeding using Bose. I appologize for the extra figures the appeared from the cut and paste and I didnt want to "edit" anything she said.

I read with interest your nicely detailed account of how you repaired =
the conditions experienced by your young kids with selenium injections. =
I know that had to be tremendously rewarding for as you, as well as =
highly educational for the list members. Thank you for taking the time =
to share the experience!

But it worries me a bit that you've singled out selenium as the sole =
hero of your story (ie: ".5 mg selenium injection to each of the three", =
and "gave the dams 5 mg selenium" and "plan to call vet as soon as they =
are open this AM to see how much more selenium I can give safely") even =
though in fact you used BoSe. You even went so far as to say that =
selenium is the generic name for BoSe! (..."I just find it safer and =
more accurate to use the generic name for the drug.") This is a bit =
misleading to the reader, Jenny.=20

Selenium, far from being merely a generic name for the drug, is the name =
identifying one of the two equally important active ingredients in the =
product. Vitamin E is the name of the other ingredient. For many years =
we've been calling this combo 'selenium-tocopherol'. In the current VPB =
it is identified as 'selenium-Vitamin E'. For those who are interested =
in achieving the same level of success in repairing their own goats that =
you did with yours, I believe it's vital to let them know that you =
didn't do it with just selenium injections as you indicated when =
recounting the experience, but that in fact the selenium and Vitamin E =
work as a team to bring about this rapid improvement in debilitated =
mammals. And BTW, that's ALL mammals, not just goats. And, it's used for =
that purpose in all parts of the country, not just in 'selenium =
deficient' areas. Using BoSe as a part of the adjunct therapy, for years =
now I have been routinely repairing cats and dogs, and helping other =
people in all parts of the country to do the same thing for their own =
animals, achieving the same level of success on them with it that you =
talk about in your post. In fact, I myself take a 200mcg tablet of =
selenium along with a 1000 unit capsule of Vitamin E daily (my own =
version of BoSe!), and have done this for many years. And trust me, I'm =
one very healthy ol' broad! <grin>=20

So... No matter what your veterinarian may tell you (and what he says is =
frankly merely a 'guesstimate' on his part anyway), BoSe should not be =
relegated simply to use in so-called 'selenium deficient' areas! In my =
view it should be incorporated into the treatment of debilitated animals =
whenever and wherever there is a need for immune system stimulus. This =
'selenium deficiency', after all, cannot be readily determined, =
excepting in individual animals, and through blood testing. Even using =
that approach, an accurate selenium level in a living animal is hard to =
pin down... And frankly, the most reliable way to measure it is by =
checking a sample of liver tissue at necropsy. Those maps defining =
selenium-deficient areas of the USA that we see occasionally are not =
absolute... They are generally produced by, say, doctoral candidates, to =
fulfill requirements for their advanced degrees, and I guarantee you =
that those Doctorial students are not actually out there testing soils =
in the different areas, but only regurgitating for the most part the =
work of previous doctoral candidates that used that same approach. Thus, =
there is no actual way for the herd owner, or for the veterinarian, to =
positively determine that what those maps indicate has any validity at =
all. =20

And that 1mg of selenium combined with 50mg of Vitamin E in the BoSe =
product is designed essentially to boost the effectiveness of the =
Vitamin E in stimulating the immune system, and is not really sufficient =
to replace selenium in an actually selenium-deficient mammal. So if I =
had a positively ID'd selenium-deficient animal, one that was deficient =
enough to be showing classic symptoms of same, I would certainly be =
dosing it with a product that contained more selenium than BoSe does!=20

For those who are interested in learning more about the levels of =
selenium present in the popular selenium/Vitamin E products on the =
market today, here is a list of them.=20

BoSe: 1mg selenium, 50mg Vitamin E, in each ml of the product.
MuSe: 5mg selenium, 50mg Vitamin E, in each ml of the product.
Myosel B: 1mg selenium, 50mg Vitamin E, in each ml of the product.
Myosel E: 2.5mg selenium, 50mg Vitamin E, in each ml of the product.
Myosel M: 5mg selenium, 50mg Vitamin E, in each ml of the product.

BTW: If anyone reading this doesn't have a veterinary source available =
to provide BoSe for you, please contact me, [email protected], and I can =
probably direct you to one.=20

Below is an article I wrote some time ago explaining just how the BoSe =
works to stimulate the animal's immune system, enabling it to help in =
its own repair from within, while we humans work on it from the outside. =
As I've sent this post to the list previously, for those who are in a =
rush and/or don't want to wade thru the pertinent details again, I'll =
sum it up right here as briefly as I can:

BoSe works so well to improve the health of mammals because of the =
teamwork involved. In each ml of the product there is 1mg of Selenium, =
combined with 50mg of Vitamin E (an already well-known immune system =
stimulant in its own right), with the result that the selenium causes =
the Vitamin E to work 6 times better than it could by itself, and at the =
same time the Vitamin E renders the selenium in the combo non-toxic!=20

The details backing up that statement are found below... For those that =
are inclined to seek further input on this... Happy reading! (smile) =
BTW At the very bottom of the article, for those who are interested in =
reading about it, I have provided an overview of my own routine approach =
to treating a sick animal, including the adjunct therapy.

Sue Reith
Carmelita Toggs
Bainbridge Island WA=20
[email protected]=20

_________________________________________________________________________=
________

=20
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Reith" [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 11:52 AM
Subject: BoSe; Selenium/tocopherol: How/why it works to stimulate the =
immune
system (Dwight Cochran DVM)

A list member asks:

>>Where did you get the info on the reasons behind combining selenium =
and
Vit E?<<

Sue Reith responds: Here's my article on BoSe and how it works...

BoSe; Selenium/tocopherol: =20
How/why it works to stimulate the immune system=20
(including the research done by Dwight Cochran DVM)

The means by which BoSe works is essentially that the presence of that 1 =
mg of Selenium with the 50 mg of Vitamin E in each ml of BoSe makes the =
Vitamin E work 6 times more efficiently, while the
presence of the Vitamin E makes that 1 mg of Selenium in the product =
non-toxic. You might want to present this to a vet you have a working =
relationship with, and tell him it is important to you to keep your =
goats' internal defenses strong. It would be helpful if vets would =
realize that the owner has a right to maintain a strong immune system in =
his/her animals as a management tool.

Vets should not be afraid of BoSe, which I believe is what we are =
dealing with here, and further I suspect it is simply because of their =
own lack of understanding regarding the subject. They hear that =
Selenium is toxic, and by itself in large amounts it certainly would be, =
and as a consequence they fear that by providing a client with BoSe they =
might be decreeing the death of the client's animal, which is not good =
for business. But in fact the issue has nothing to do with whether or =
not the area in which they live is
sufficient/deficient in selenium, but rather it is the presence of that =
1mg of selenium in combination with the 50mg of Vitamin E in the =
injection that is so critical to the strengthening of the animal's =
immune system.

The vet meds reference book, called the VPB (Veterinary Pharmaceuticals =
and Biologicals) does not address the detrimental effect on livestock of =
too much available environmental selenium that worries vets so when they =
are considering the potential use of BoSe, as it isn't really a relevant =
issue in discussion of the BoSe product. However, they do discuss the =
synergistic effect of selenium in combination with Vitamin E. This =
synergistic effect may be a basic concept simply understood and taken =
for granted by chemists and pharmacologists today, although it appears, =
from the reticence of Vets to prescribe BoSe, that may be an =
unproductive approach... I really don't know why you can't pick up your =
average livestock management book and read about it... I guess it is one =
of those things you soak up with research and experience along the =
way... Who knows?

But what I do know is that a well-known and highly respected Caprine Vet =
by the name of Dwight Cochran, a teaching Prof at Purdue University =
School of Vet Medicine, gave a talk back in 1979 (and probably at other =
times as well, but I only have a copy of this one) overviewing the =
research done by the
AASGP (American Ass'n of Sheep and Goat Practitioners) (currently =
renamed AASRP, after they included Llamas among their interests) on this =
subject in which he stated (and I am only giving you a pertinent =
paragraph here, as the speech was very long):

To wit:

FUNCTIONS AND INTERRELATIONSHIPS OF =
SELENIUM-TOCOPHEROL
By Dwight E =
Cochran DVM

Selenium functions as an essential component of glutathione peroxidase, =
the enzyme that breaks down peroxides, while tocopherol appears to =
function as a secondary line of defense against peroxide damage. In the =
absence of an adequate intake of selenium, tocopherol will act to =
protect the cell
membrane. Tocopherol, however, cannot replace the need for selenium. =
This mechanism is the basis for describing tocopherol as an antioxidant =
for Vitamin A and necessary polyunsaturated fatty acids. Selenium =
compounds also function in the transport of tocopherol within the body. =
Further biochemical interrelationships are beyond the scope of this =
discussion, but it should be noted that various researchers have shown =
that there is a close relationship in the biomedical activities of =
selenium and tocopherol and that there is a definite synergistic effect =
when the two are used together. Tocopherol reduces the toxicity of =
selenium drastically and selenium potentiates the effects of tocopherol =
as much as six times.

end of paragraph.

Sue Reith
Carmelita Toggs
Bainbridge Island WA

------Addendum------

My own approach, developed over the past few years through observation =
of the results with and without the use of BoSe as adjunct therapy, =
along with whatever else is being used to restore the animal to good =
health, is that using BoSe to stimulate the immune system so that the =
body of the debilitated animal can help itself while I treat it =
therapeutically speeds up the repair time markedly.

My routine approach these days when treating a sick animal is the =
following:

BoSe inj (at the rate of 1cc/40 lbs SQ) is given once daily for 3 =
days...
Then it is given once every 2nd day for 3 doses... Then once a week for =
a
month...

However, in an animal that is older, so that his/her own immune system =
functions less efficiently than it did in earlier years, and in =
particular when there is some disease involved for which, in this older =
animal, there is no known cure, I have found, much to my astonishment, =
that continuing BoSe monthly on a permanent basis after having =
introduced the initial regimen outlined above results in markedly =
increased health and greater expectation of longevity in that animal.

To illustrate by drawing from my own experience:

A couple of years ago I discovered a large tumor about the size of a =
goose egg on the front leg of my 12 year old male Australian Shepherd. =
Biopsy revealed that it was a spindle-cell-sarcoma. The veterinarian =
immediately suggested surgery to remove it, but I declined, having =
learned from experience that once surgery is performed tumors generally =
metastasize rapidly. I preferred not to put my old dog thru that =
stressful process and opted instead to begin the BoSe regimen I spelled =
out above. I had hoped
that the stimulation of his immune system in this manner would keep the =
tumor from enlarging more and/or spreading. Instead, a month later the =
tumor had actually shrunk! It was all but imperceptible when palpating =
the leg! About 6 months later I tried to skip the monthly BoSe =
injection, and
after 2 months went by I found it had started to grow again, so I =
immediately went back to the month injections, which reduced the tumor =
once again and kept it under control in an all-but-non-existent state =
for the remainder of my dog's life. He passed away at just short of 14 =
years old, of an unrelated cause.

Sue Reith
Carmelita Toggs
Bainbridge Island WA=20
[email protected]


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## bessmiller

Thanks again to all of you for your 2 cents.  I gave Hana a .11cc dose of BoSe a couple days ago, and I am very happy to say that her leg seems to be straightening up just fine! She is very strong and healthy, and has been prancing around the pen all day. So cute. 

Thanks!


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## toth boer goats

> Thanks again to all of you for your 2 cents.  I gave Hana a .11cc dose of BoSe a couple days ago, and I am very happy to say that her leg seems to be straightening up just fine! She is very strong and healthy, and has been prancing around the pen all day. So cute.
> 
> Thanks!


 You are very welcome.... :thumb:

I am so happy to hear... the baby is doing better.... :leap:


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