# goat polio, how long



## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

We have a nubian buckling that started acting a bit off Sat. He would just wonder to the edge of the pen and holler like he was lost. It's almost like he has a disoriented spell then he snaps back to normal. He seems to not turn his head to the right so much either. He is still eating, but it seems to be less and less. We thought maybe it was goat polio so Sun we started giving Bcomplex (thaimine 100mg) and Monday added pencillin just in case. I talked to a vet today and he had no other suggestions except that he likes LA200 better and that we should give him that every third day.

So, if goat polio is what we are dealing w/how soon until we will see improvement? Any other ideas as to what could be going on? We do not think it is min worms. He has been in the same pen, w/the same other kids for the last 3 months (their whole lives). They have been wormed, and were given CD&T vac, about 2 weeks ago I think.

Thanks.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Are you doing the proper dosage of B Complex and penicillin? The penicillin is for listeriosis and you need high doses and giving it every 6 hours.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All goats are different, as mentioned, you have to keep up treatment every 6 hour on Q. For anything to improve. 
High doses of pen G and thiamine.
It may take days or weeks. We cannot predict, sorry. 

It has to be keep up even after back to normal, at least another 48 hours more after symptoms have disappeared. It is a lot of work and dedication.


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

We were giving 3cc's of pen, he is about 40-50 lbs. We swtiched to LA200, per the vet. Should we go back to pen? B we are giving 4 cc's 3XD.

Thanks for the help, I was not sure how soon we would see a change. Could be long I guess.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

How often were you giving the penicillin?


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## micheybelle21 (Sep 15, 2014)

We had a pygmy sick last year. We first thought goat polio or listeriosis. But vet said it was M worm. Our girl was very disoriented and spinning bad after 2 days of initially onset of symptoms (separation from the herd and fever). So just keep an eye out for that. M worm is a nightmare. We treated aggressively with dexamethazone and a few other meds. Definitely keep a good eye on her. Good luck...hope she gets better soon.


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

When we were giving the pen it was every 6 hrs. He gets LA200 again today (Fri).

He has no symptoms of m worms, thankfully. He seems to be improving ever so slightly so maybe we are getting over the hump. Certainly not getting worse, thankfully!

Thanks for the help everyone.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Prayers sent.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

With listerosis you need antibiotic daily...every 6 hours. I would go back to pen mostly because it does have to be given so often its less painful .. you need to also be giving Banamine or dex for brain swelling


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Also check lower inner eye lids for color...look for deep pink to red.. and temp. 101.5-103.5 is normal range


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

His eye color is great, and temp is normal. Honestly I am not sure what he has. He does not have the symptoms of listeriosis, but not goat polio either. However of the two it is the polio that seems to fit best. He almost acts as if he can't see, but if we put a bottle out he will head straight for it! When it rains, he stands at the gate hollering until DD goes and puts him in the shed w/the others. He seems to just get disoriented.

A couple of things I keep forgetting to mention are...he was weaned last Sat when this all began, and his mom is likely CAE positive! I have to wonder if it has something to do w/that (cae). But, he is not having seizures or limb weakness. 

Very strange indeed! He is about the same as he has been for the whole week, not worse but not better. He still eats hay and grain, and some browse. We are giving him yogurt for the probios, until we can get something from TSC.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if it was polio..you would see improvement my now..sounds like he really needs Banamine or Dex, blindness and disorient sound neurological ..mom being CAE positive can cause issues but I think he would have shown signs pretty much after birth? I would keep treating him with the pen and B complex and banamine...I would also have a fecal done...even though his lids are good, ask for cocci check as well...I know it must be frustrating...

best wishes


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## micheybelle21 (Sep 15, 2014)

Glad there is some improvement. Stay vigilant with treatment and care. Sending prayers.


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

Neurological is what we thought too. We have a friend that can give us some banamine until we can talk to the vet on Mon. How much and how often should we give it? And, the pen...how much and how often? We started w/3cc's every 6 hrs, but the vet said to switch to LA200 once every 3 days. We are giving the B orally now because we hate to keep poking him. 

Honestly, I am not sure how much effort to put into him because we are not sure if we will be able to sell him until we find out about the CAE. If they (the dams) test positive again we are just going to raise them for meat for ourselves. Too bad because they (he is a twin) are purebred, polled, and colorful. We don't want him to suffer either if what is happening is causing pain, which I can't tell.

Thanks for the help, and prayers.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Banamine, here is a good link 
http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/banamine-how-much-how-give-130144/


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

banamine 1 cc per 100# once daily for 3 days then assess to see if a few more days are needed

Pen is 1 cc per 20# sub Q every 6 hours..needs a 18 G needle....

B complex is 4-5 cc per 100# every 6 hours as well.....this is thin, a 22-20 G needle works so less of a pinch...

I know its hard to keep poking...and making that call of when to stop.... once you get CAE results then I would decide what the fate of the little guy is..

best wishes


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

Thanks for the dosage info Cathy. I think we will continue w/the oral on the B since he has had so much already, and we had been giving it SQ for the first several days. Guess it will still help.

I agree, we are going to retest in about 4 weeks so until then we plan to treat everyone as if they are fine.

Thanks for the link Pam.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if you have to go oral on the B...then up the dose...much is lost orally...personally I would inject ...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

praisemymaker said:


> Thanks for the dosage info Cathy. I think we will continue w/the oral on the B since he has had so much already, and we had been giving it SQ for the first several days. Guess it will still help.
> 
> I agree, we are going to retest in about 4 weeks so until then we plan to treat everyone as if they are fine.
> 
> Thanks for the link Pam.


Your very welcome.
I highly recommd giving Vit B/thiamine SQ injection, I feel it does nothing or not enough to help with Polio cases.


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

We are going ahead w/the Pen and B (SQ). We feel nothing is helping, but maybe we haven't tried hard or long enough! I'm starting to wonder if it is listeriosis instead but still we see no changes, no matter what we do. So stressful! 

Thanks everyone.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good you are giving it the B SQ.

I have to make sure, is there thiamine it in or is it just vit B alone?
If you can get some straight thiamine, it is given IM and it's highly recommended for getting thiamine needed for Polio cases.
If you cannot get straight thiamine, Fortified vit B complex with thiamine in it, 100 mg is OK to use.
If you are seeing no improvement, you can increase doses and/or give it every 4 hours to see if that helps for a while. 

It is frustrating for sure.

Also, if you haven't given Banamine shots 1 x a day for a few days, it is needed. Or even better, if you can talk to the vet and get Dex for brain swelling, that drug is really important and needed.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

how is he?


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

No improvement, seems a bit worse today. He seems to be getting weaker, not eating as well, and more pitiful crying. Also, he is laying down more today than he has in days past. He drinks when we take him to the water, and eats hay (a tiny bit) when we put him by the hay feeder. He ate no grain this morning. We did give a bottle of milk which he drank. 

We have given 2 Banamine shots (Sat & Sun) and 2 dex (Sun & Mon). Also, the B (100mg thamine) and pen. The shots are very painful for him. We are not sure how much more to put into him since we see no changes to the positive. It is very stressful and hard to decide what to do.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You have been doing all you can for him and there should be at least some improvement by now.  
But if now, he has stopped eating and not getting up anymore, there is that time you need to decide whether or not it is enough. If he is suffering, which it does sound like it, he may need relieved of his pain. That is up to you and him. He seems not to be responding at all to treatment.
By now, he shouldn't be going backwards on you. I am very sorry, you tried so hard. God bless. Prayers sent.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree...you have done and are doing all you can...if you feel his suffering is too much, then you must do what you feel is right...there is no judgment here..only support..there comes a time when we just know in our heart enough is enough...((hugs))


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

Thank you both for the prayers and support. As of now we are still treating him, we are going to give it just a bit more time. This evening he almost seemed a bit more alert than this morning, so we are still hanging in there. We do not want to prolong any pain though. We also decided to give him some wormer since worms seem to really take a hold when they are sick. Probably should have done a fecal first, but sometimes when they are so sick you just give it all you've got and don't worry about the particulars. 

Will keep you posted. And thank you again. It is nice to know there are others out there pulling for this guy and feeling our pain (as the saying goes).


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## micheybelle21 (Sep 15, 2014)

Praisemymaker keeping you guys in our prayers. We have gone through it with our Rosie but just couldn't give up on her. We dedicated ourselves to her recovery. Today she is happy and active. I hope the same for yours.


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## micheybelle21 (Sep 15, 2014)

Our dex treatment was pretty aggressive. Our vet says that makes all the difference.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Glad there is slight improvement that is a plus, we are on your side and praying the poor baby pulls through.


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

micheybelle21 said:


> Our dex treatment was pretty aggressive. Our vet says that makes all the difference.


How aggressive? I am going to call the vet today and get some more. Hopefully we will win this battle. Also, what were you treating? I am still undecided if it is polio or listeriosis...leaning towards listeriosis though.

He is about the same this morning. I really wonder if he can't see and that is what makes him so depressed. He ate a bit and took a bottle of milk. Gues that is better than nothing.

When is starts raining he just stands there and hollers until someone puts him up!! Poor guy.


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## micheybelle21 (Sep 15, 2014)

We were certain it was listeriosis but like I said the vet,thought meningeal worm (M worm). Symptoms could be similar. Rosie had such neurological issues. She seemed blind too. Her eyes were shaking left to right. She was circling for a long time. And her neck was twisted back all the way. You don't have that issue, thank god. She didn't eat, we had to feed her through a syringe. 
What is the exact symptoms you are dealing with?
The dex treatment should have started at the initial on set of symptoms our vet said but her first symptoms were separation from the group and fever. I would have never suspected what would happen next. A friend's vet stopped by initially bc he was in the area and he said she most certainly had pneumonia. He was wrong. Unfortunately we mistreated her for two days.


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## micheybelle21 (Sep 15, 2014)

Here was my initial post when she was diagnosed. Apparently wbc count should be high if it's listeriosis. 
Long story here. My sweetest girl has been diagnosed with m worm... As blood work showed normal wbc count so listeriosis was ruled out. She has severe neurological issues. Thankfully we didn't lose her. She is on Dexamethasone Thiamine Panacur and Amcalcilyte. She got home a few hours ago still circling and hanging head to left but she's up. I'm working with her as per vets request. Extra TLC massage and moving her neck up down and to the right. She can walk straight a bit. Vet said he was cautiously hopeful as am I. My goats are just pets so we are heartbroken but will not give up on her. Any advice info etc???


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

Micheybelle21...here is the short version. Last Sat he started "zoning out", he would just stand there and holler looking out of the pen like he was lost but then he would act normal again. He sorta held his head just a bit funny, but not twisted around or anything. He was still eating etc. As the days have progresses he just stands there depressed looking, and when he does move around it is as if he can't really tell where he is going. It does not seem like he is blind, but maybe having some vision issues. My DD (it's her goat) will take him out of the pen and feed him, he eats slowly but eats most of a cup of feed. He will eat hay if he is placed by the feeder or if he happens to find the hay feeder. He will drink if he finds the water, or we take it too him. He has not run a fever during any of this.

We have given him pen, la200, dex and banamine. I talked to vet today and he said only give him one dex shot (the kid is only 3 mths), and then banamine. He said 1xD on ban, for several days. 

Honestly I am not sure what is going on w/him. And, no idea what to do other than continue w/the pen etc. Since we are not sure about the CAE in his dam, we don't know how much to put into him because we may be putting him down away. Makes this all so very frustrating!

Thanks for any help or thoughts, and the link to you post about Rosie, I plan to read through it all, hope she is still doing good.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Prayers sent


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

Thank you Pam.


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

I had a thought I wanted to run by someone...since this guy has not has a fever are the antibiotics still necessary? Maybe there is a viral thing going on not bacterial and the pen is just useless? Don't know, just thinking out loud. Any thoughts Cathy, Pam or anyone else?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

The penicillin is for Listeriosis...which is Bacterial... larger then normal amounts are needed since it has to pass the Blood Brain barrier...encephalitic type of listeriosis is most common which causes the brain to swell, thus the Banamine/Dex...I know its very hard to keep up treatment..especially when you don't see improvement... as for your thought in it being something viral...its a possibility...but we just cant know...viral infection run their course and we usually treat the symptoms and to prevent secondary infection....so either way...the Pen can help...


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

Thanks Cathy. We are going to keep on for 10 days w/the pen per the vets instructions and then stop and see what happens. Just trying to figure out if it could be anything else, but nothing comes to mind. 

Someone else suggested a reaction to the CD&T vac that was given at least a week prior to on-set of symptoms, possibly longer, would have to check on the exact time frame.

Maybe grasping at straws.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I understand...I would be too...I would want to be sure I didn't miss something...and just because it looks like a duck..doesn't always make it a duck when it comes to goats:chick: lol..goats keep us second guessing ourselves!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.


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## micheybelle21 (Sep 15, 2014)

Still praying for you. Keep up treatment.


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

Thanks everyone. We are still treating...pen 2xD and Banamine 1xD. We also decided to give him Safeguard (12ccs 1xD for 5 days), just it case it was meningeal worms. I don't think that is his problem, but as I said before I really have no idea what is going on. It's hard to know if he is going forwards or backwards. We will stop all meds Wed. and see what happens!


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## micheybelle21 (Sep 15, 2014)

No improvement at all?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Uh, not giving the vit B? That's what cures Polio eventually and there is a weaning off thing you have to do as well.


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

Yes, still w/the Vit B, just forgot! If there is any improvement it is very slight, then it seems like something else happens. For example...he is browsing more, but has now taken to putting his head in the water bucket far enough for water to get up his nose! Yesterday (Sun) we found him wet, ears face, chest. We have found him laying on his side w/his head under him a few times, but we think he fell because his balance is not great. We have to keep a good watch on him that is for sure. He still eats feed and hay, not as much as he use to but some anyway.

Just have no idea! Nothing we try seems to help.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

oh thats scary with the water and him falling with his head under him...yes...a very close eye indeed!!!


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

:tears: Well, we had to put our little guy down. It was so sad. He was not able to stand w/out help most of the day. Was not able to drink right, was drooling and panting, and barely nibbling at feed. Considering the fact that he was absolutely not responding to anything we did we decided he had suffered enough. We still have no idea what was wrong, and never will. I tend to think it may have to do w/the CAE, although I still hope his dam will test out negative next time. But, maybe we just didn't do all we could. I think I will go cry some more...

Thanks for everyones help!


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## micheybelle21 (Sep 15, 2014)

I'm so sorry. Sending hugs your way. You tried hard. Very sad to hear.
These later symptoms were the same we dealt with with ours. I'm wondering still if it was M worm. Let us know.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How sad. 

You did the right thing, I know it is hard to do, but it was time. 

You have to give yourself credit for trying so hard, it is not an easy thing to do. :hug:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

So very sorry....I agree...you did the right thing...sometimes thats a hard thing to do...((hugs))


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## praisemymaker (May 21, 2015)

Thank you both. Sometimes deciding what is best is the hardest decision.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:grouphug:


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