# Sticky  Excellent Minerals (You know how I love me those minerals!!!!)



## mariarose

I don't know how many of you have a Stockdales nearby. My Stockdales is an hour and a quarter away That is where I get my favorite goat minerals (when I can!!!!) Here is my favorite, like you don't know by now! Yeah, this one http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73

However, I'm not here to tell you about this one, AGAIN! No! I'm here to tell you, that the last time I was there, finding my favourite mineral mix, I found this one as well. Sweetlix Meat Maker Minerals. ALSO Sweetlix Goat Maker Minerals. There have been sooooo many recommending thes formulas, I was excited to tell people that if you want it, and you have an available Stockdales, it is in the freaking system!!!! I love my Stockdales. TThey try so hard to please. I'm not sayin' you want this. BUT, if you DO want this, have not been able to find it, AND have a Stockdales nearby, stop and check if they'll order it for you. Mine will, If I know to order it.

Nevertheless, my Co-op brand Supreme Goat Mineral is stll my favorite. So I went home with that one!


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## mariarose

I'm so blessed. I have access to many good mineral choices! Co-op Supreme, Cargill's Right Now Onyx, and now Sweetlix Meat Maker. I know others of you are not, and I feel guilty. But....Yay, ME!!! To heck with Manna Pro.

Of course, I still have to order so much, but not loose mineral mix. Yay!


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## groovyoldlady

Glad you are so HAPPY! ;-). I used SweetLix for several years, but my does seem to like Manna Pro better..

Curious: The minerals in your link does not have a 2:1 ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus. Isn't that a problem???


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## mariarose

Hi Groovy. I'm glad you asked me that. No, I do not regard it as a problem because I feed so much alfalfa, either as hay, or as pellets. The mineral has the selenium, iodine, and copper I need. The alfalfa has the calcium I need. The calcium is so much easier for me to find to supplement. I have to respond to the local levels I have.

I am so incredibly underwhelmed by Manna Pro's levels of anything except for the calcium/phosphorus levels. But I know that it is a very popular mineral mix and when something is working I won't undermine that. I just wanted to let people know who have access to this store that they have an option they might be unaware of. It was here on this sight that I learned of the advantages of Onyx, so when my local Co-Op started carrying it, I was glad to jump on it Yay!!!! I had no ability to get Sweetlix until now and I wanted to share that I now could, and maybe others could.

But my favourite, and the one I keep recommending is the Co-op brand.

If you like the Manna Pro, here is a similar, yet superior product you may investigate, if you WANT to...https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-6-phosphorus-cattle-mineral-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005

DON'T get this one. HORRIBLE...https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/nutrebeef-cattle-mineral?cm_vc=-10005 I still have the info they emailed me about this product, If you want it then email me at [email protected] and I'll be glad to send the info along.

Yes, loose mineral mixes can make me seem a little....Loose?....Mixed? I've stopped telling people about it because I realize I'm sounding weird now.

But this post was not for people who are happy with what they have. It is for people who want something they should have, want to have, but have been unable to have. Once upon a time, I would have been thrilled to have this info. Now I don't need it, but others might want it, so here it is. Stockdales has the ability to get Sweetlix. If you have a Stockdales, and if you want Sweetlix, then ask them about it. Stockdales is amazingly helpful.
I still like the Co-op Supreme Goat Mineral more, personally.


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## Jessica84

What I don’t get about my feed stores is I can get sweetlix tubs of protein but not their minerals! I mean it’s their brand why can’t I (sobbing) I’m sure it’s because we have a plant out here that makes the tubs and not the minerals but still!


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## mariarose

Jess, here in KY, Sobbing works. Just saying!


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## mariarose

@Jessica84 I know you like this brand and these people ship. Have you looked at them?

https://www.qcsupply.com/purina-win...H236O7cDqspkP88FP2aGZ2_IASlqY07hoCkoIQAvD_BwE


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## Jessica84

Thank you! I’m gonna have to see how much shipping is. I’m sure I’ve mentioned this a million times lol but there is a place that sells every mineral, as in you can just buy copper with salt not all mixed together. I really want to try that, the lady that uses their products her goats look so dang amazing but shipping is more then the bag it’s self so I keep thinking on it then saying ouch and back out lol I’m all for you get what you pay for but I can’t go broke either!


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## catharina

mariarose said:


> @Jessica84 I know you like this brand and these people ship. Have you looked at them?
> 
> https://www.qcsupply.com/purina-win...H236O7cDqspkP88FP2aGZ2_IASlqY07hoCkoIQAvD_BwE


Wow, I just came home with a bag of that from TSC because it was the one with the most copper & selenium there. I hope they eat it--mine are very picky about minerals.


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## Jessica84

Mine are too and the wind and rain and gostrong are the only ones I have tried that they really dig into. Mine drive me nuts with their picky ness and minerals!


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## goathiker

You might try an amino acid lick. If they aren't getting the chelation compounds they need, they can't use what they get regardless.


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## mariarose

An amino acid lick. Something else to dig into...


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## Lunaroso

@mariarose the mineral lady! I'm glad sweetlix has your stamp of approval! the only store close to me only sells manapro. Sweetlix meat maker can be had online from jeffers pet. It costs a pretty penny to ship it though. It literally doubles the price...but hey, some things are worth it right?


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## Lunaroso

This little airplane loves sweetlix @mariarose


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## mariarose

If you have a Stockdales nearby, ask them to get you some. If you like the Manna Pro, keep going that way. Or, if you have a TSC, check this one out

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-6-phosphorus-cattle-mineral-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005

It is similar to the Manna Pro but it has iodine in it and a much higher level of Selenium. Do what makes your goats healthy and happy.


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## groovyoldlady

Thanks MariaRose!


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## toth boer goats

Thanks


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## mariarose

goathiker said:


> You might try an amino acid lick. If they aren't getting the chelation compounds they need, they can't use what they get regardless.


I found this really interesting (to me) page on amino acids

http://www.milkproduction.com/Library/Scientific-articles/Nutrition/Amino-acids/

I'm having difficulty in finding a "lick" Can you help me with a link to what you mean? I'd really appreciate it.


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## goathiker

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/pure-sea-salt-for-sheep-and-goats


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## Suzanne_Tyler

That is great you have so many good options near you. All the stores around me only carry Manno Pro and a cow mineral of equal quality


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## mariarose

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> That is great you have so many good options near you


I KNOW!!!! I'm SO limited in SO much, and I have this plethora of decent mineral options.

As gorgeous as your goats are, you are a shining example of what can be done with attention and determination.

Many of my herd have come from North Carolina, and shortly after arriving here, show signs of deficiencies that they never had over there. I'm now on the ball and heading off problems from the beginning. It was a longer learning curve than it should have been, because I just had it stuck in my head that with so many similarities between Boone/Lenoir/Hickory, NC and Edmonton, KY there would be no problems.

But that notion has been thoroughly driven from my head.


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## mariarose

@rodeorulz Is this the mineral you use?

http://www.ranch-way.com/products/goat-feed/ranch-way-ranch-o-min-11-goat-mineral

If so, I like it. The copper and selenium seem quite low to me, and if I were feeding this I would invest in some replamin plus to make up for the shortfall.

The ingredients seem nice quality.


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## goathiker

Except that the minerals are chelated, which means the animal can use much much more of them than they can the inorganic mineral salts in most mineral mixes.


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## mariarose

So much the better for @rodeorulz !


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## rodeorulz

@mariarose Yep that's it! Sorry, I hadn't seen that you had tagged me over here yet after I posted in my thread 
Since I give copper boluses (so far just 1x a year) maybe I will be ok there. It looks like I need to find out if I live in an area that is selenium deficient or not.
What do you think about this one:
https://www.hubbardlife.com/goat/goat-mineral-for-meat-dairy-goats.aspx
*Nutrient Analysis*
Calcium (Ca), min % 14.0
Calcium (Ca), max % 16.8
Phosphorus (P), min % 7.0
Salt (NaCl), min % 20.0
Salt (NaCl), max % 24.0
Copper (Cu), max 1,550 ppm
Selenium (Se), min 26.0 ppm
Vitamin A, min 200,000 IU/lb.
Vitamin D, min 40,000 IU/lb.
Vitamin E, min 400 IU/lb.


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## mariarose

I did not want to risk hi-jacking your thread about breeding, so I gave you a shout out here. I'm glad to go back if you like, but there are so many different mineral mix options that I'm happy to have people chiming in here, too.

Yes, find out about Copper and Selenium deficiency symptoms first, that is a great place to start (then finding out about toxicity symptoms, of course). On my particular farm, the goats require so much of both minerals, not just because we are deficient, but also because we have an abundance of mineral antagonists. So I've trained myself to look for that first.

Now, to your question, which may elicit other responses than mine....

I don't see half of the equation, which are the ingredients. The site does not even have them on the PDF, which seems odd to me. I can't comment on that. Here is a VERY general rule. In loose mixes, ingredients that end in -ate are of better quality than ingredients that end in -ite or -ide. And if you live in a very high iron area (red stains everywhere unless you filter your water) then look out for anything that says ferrous or iron.

The mineral you are currently using has very nice quality ingredients, as I said above and goathiker remarked on.

That said, being a bit in the dark about the ingredients, your mineral seems superior to the one you are asking about, but this is what I see about that one (the second one)

The calcium/phosphorus ratio is good, especially if you don't feed hi calcium elsewhere.

I don't like my salt that high. Because they'll come for the salt, then stop when they've had enough salt, but before they've had enough minerals. 10-15 percent is better, imo, because it is enough salt to attract them, but low enough they'll get minerals too.

The copper is ok

The selenium is ok, but would be way too low for me

The vitamins are good.

The site you sent me to mentions chelated zinc, but it is not on the analysis. Weird.

Also not on the analysis? Iodine, Cobalt, Potassium, Magnesium, Manganese...

I don't see anything here that would make me move away from what you already have. Well done.


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## SalteyLove

Jessica84 said:


> What I don't get about my feed stores is I can get sweetlix tubs of protein but not their minerals! I mean it's their brand why can't I (sobbing) I'm sure it's because we have a plant out here that makes the tubs and not the minerals but still!


Jessie - I will trade you!

I can get Sweetlix Meat Maker loose mineral at multiple locations but the ONE and ONLY feed mill that stocked protein tubs went out of business. Another feed store tried their darndest to have them shipped in for me but the distributor has a limitation and won't let two locations within some crazy radius stock them!


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## mariarose

I wonder access would improve, if we customers start writing to manufacturers directly to say "Hey, I'm NOT willing to drive a hundred miles to get your product. I use to use it all the time from ..... because I found it superior to .... product that I'm using now. But ... product is what I'm getting because I can get it and not yours.

I wonder if manufacturers just don't understand customer preferences and access issues? I recently wrote a manufacturer, and they very nicely wrote back and said they had had no idea of what I was saying, and who was my local feed co-op.


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## mariarose

I can't believe what I am about to tell you all. My local co-op, where I am always able to get the Cargill's Onyx, is going to be carrying the Tennessee Farm Co-op brand Supreme Goat mineral!!!!!! I'll never be without them again. I'm just awriggle with excitement, and yes, I know that awriggle is not a real word!

Erp!


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## mariella

Do you know of any minerals for lactating does?
Also what are the % I should look for in a good mineral?


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## singinggoatgirl

I've been wanting your opinion on a new mineral I just heard of sold nearby advertised for dairy goats...

"Guaranteed analysis
Ca min 12%
Ca max 15%
Phosphorus 4%
Potassium 0.3%
Magnesium 0.35%
Copper 7500ppm
Selenium 10ppm
Vit A min 15000 IU/lb
Vit D min 7250 IU/lb
Vit E min 20 IU/lb
salt 22%
Sulfur 4.75%
zinc 400ppm
iodine 40ppm
Calcium carbonate, mortons sea salt, dicalcuim phosphate, processed plant by-products, sulfur, copper sulfate, vegetable oil, vitamin a,d,e supplements, organic iodine, zinc

this product contains added copper in amounts that can be toxic to some animals. This product does contain certain ingredients to help prevent copper toxicity. FEED TO SHEEP AT YOUR OWN RISK"

not sure what they mean by organic iodine. iodine in an organic (carbon based) compound? organic like all-natural?


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## mariarose

@singinggoatgirl I don't like that mineral at all. It is seriously out of whack, and I don't see how those minerals can work together all out of proportion like that.

I would stick with what you have and then supplement from time to time with what you need. If you give that mineral (that you showed here) then you'll be constantly fiddling and supplementing.

You have a really good mineral already, I know. I personally wish it had more copper. But supplementing copper from time to time is easier and cheaper than supplementing everything else.

Should you choose to try it, then only offer it as an additional separate mineral, that your goats can take as they need extra copper, but leave a more regular mix out as well.

But I would not bother with it at all.


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## mariarose

mariella said:


> Do you know of any minerals for lactating does?
> Also what are the % I should look for in a good mineral?


I'm sorry you've been waiting. I did not get a notification and I don't know if anyone else participating in this thread did either.

So far as I can see, the mineral needs of a lactating doe are the same as the needs of a gestating doe. And mineral needs are supplied across the entire diet, not just in the mineral mix, and antagonists are in the entire diet, not just the mineral mix. And some goats can simply need more of something than other goats do, so just because one doe does not need extra copper, does not mean another one doesn't...

So what I'm saying is, it's complicated. Here are some generalities for you.

All minerals are necessary. By this I mean, phosphorus is vital, you can't do without it just because you need more calcium. Calcium is vital, you can't do without it simply because it is an antagonist of copper, see?

In total, you need at least 2 times as much calcium as you do phosphorus (still need a good amount of phosphorus). Bucks need less of a ratio than do gestating does, but still at least the 2 to 1.

ALMOST everywhere in the US needs selenium supplementation. There are a few tiny spots in the US that don't, and I almost feel like those few spots are constricting the availability of selenium to the rest of us. (I want to see 30 ppm of selenium, and I'm still supplementing all the time)

The amount of zinc should be 3 times the amount of copper. It might be 4 times. I will check and clarify.

Your minerals MUST have iodine. I look for iodine all the time. I've ordered a cobalt block that has 2 times the amount of iodine as most of them do.

I hate Manna Pro goat minerals. I'm seeing too many goats die because the owners think they are adequate and won't actually look at their goats. They are bad minerals that have a great reputation. I used to use them, then was unimpressed, then disliked them. Now I hate them.

I have to go for the moment. I'll come back and finish (edit) this later.
OK, I'm back.

I like to see a lot of Vitamin D-3 on the label (or at least on an email in response to an inquiry about it)

Another generality is that the ingredients are the other half of the equation, and should not be ignored. There are some forms of minerals that are better absorbed than other forms are. But that isn't always a good thing. Oxides are not easily utilized, and that is why copper boluses should always, ALWAYS, be copper oxide. That keeps it very safe. However, you don't want your mineral mix to be filled with oxides. You may as well not be offering minerals at all. I am not against sulfates. But if your mineral mix is crammed with this sulfate and that sulfate and everything else is a sulfate, that is a lot of sulphur. Sulpher is an antagonist to several other minerals, like copper and selenium. Quality minerals often have more than 1 form of a mineral, and that is better than just 1 form being the sole source, in terms of a goat being able to use the mineral. Related to this, sometimes an ingredient indicates there is a mineral in there that does not show up in the analysis. For instance, Iron often is left out of the GA (guaranteed analysis). But when I look at the ingredients, I might see a few ferrous whatevers. I don't want a lot of iron, so I may steer clear of that formulation. Lastly, In general (again) -ites and -ates are better than -ides in your ingredients.

Some things I don't care for, but others (successful others) do. 
I don't mix other things, like kelp, into my mineral mix, because that will throw off the guaranteed analysis. That analysis is why I chose that mineral. 
I don't like a lot of salt in my mineral mix. Below 15 percent is where I am happy. I provide salty things, like kelp, separately, so that the goats don't stop eating the minerals simply because they don't want any more salt just then.
Even when I give extra salt it is never just plain salt. It always has other minerals attached. Like a cobalt block, or a Redmond sea salt lick, or Sel-90. 
Finally, I'm completely NOT on board with the hyped up idea that chelated forms of minerals are so wonderful and amazing that you don't have to have very much of them. No, you still need enough of them. Better to have enough regular mineral forms than not enough chelated forms. And of course you are paying a lot more for those chelated forms that are not doing the job for you.

The last generality I can think of at the moment is that quality minerals are expensive, but not as expensive as vet bills, lost productivity, and lots and lots of supplements in order to supplement your supplement.

@mariella I hope I have given you some ideas to go forward on. I wish I could say, "HERE is the supplement you need, the ONLY supplement you'll EVER need. I can't do that. I can only tell you some things that are important in my process and why they are important.


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## mariella

I get you can't just say here this will solve all your problems but I am looking for something better then Manna pro. I haven't seen anything good from Manna pro and I want something better. I was just asking if you have one you prefer something that is better then Manna pro?


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## mariarose

OOOHHHHH. OK. Sorry.

I don't know any of your regional offerings. Here is the regional offering I like and use
http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73

Here is another regional offering that is decent, if you have a Southern States near you. I don't like their other formulations.
https://www.southernstates.com/cata...itions-weathershed-21-beef-mineral-50-lb.aspx

Here is another really nice regional mix, I'd write and ask about the Cobalt level. They say it has cobalt, but it is not on the GA
http://www.ranch-way.com/products/minerals-salt/updated-ranch-o-min-breeding-performance-w-hi-copper

The following national brands are all superior to Manna Pro, imo, ranked from most favoured to least favoured on my farm.

Sweetlix Meat Maker 16-8
Cargill's Right Now Onyx
Purina Wind and Rain, Storm.
Purina 6% Phosphorus, here is a link https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-6-phosphorus-cattle-mineral-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005

All the above are vastly superior to the Manna Pro, again, imo. But my imo isn't ignorant blathering.

I hope this is helpful, more helpful than what I offered before.


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## kmoore9184

I live in central PA. How do I find out what minerals are deficient in my area and which mineral supplement would be best for my girls?


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## ksalvagno

Ask your extension agent. Charts on the internet are extremely outdated. What minerals are available at the stores you go to?


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## mariarose

@ksalvagno is correct. The county extension office is a good place to start.

Check in your local mills and stores for some of the minerals mentioned here and see if any of them are found in your local feed mills or feed stores. If not, then see how close you can come to the GA numbers with your local offerings of loose minerals.

Get the best you can find, and be willing to tweak and adjust. My local extension office was unaware that the high sulphur here would have anything to do with my goats' needs. I had to be willing to learn and adjust, by watching if my goats were really OK.

You are already so aware that you are asking questions like this @kmoore9184 You are gonna be a great goat owner.

If you


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## kmoore9184

ksalvagno said:


> Ask your extension agent. Charts on the internet are extremely outdated. What minerals are available at the stores you go to?


We have tractor supply and I can mail order. That's about all I have available to me. Thanks I'll check with the extension agent


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## mariarose

The best one, again imo, at TSC is this one
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-wind-rain-storm-all-season-75-complete?cm_vc=-10005
The 2nd Best one at TSC
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-6-phosphorus-cattle-mineral-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005

Don't get this one... Horrible levels
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/nutrebeef-cattle-mineral?cm_vc=-10005

The Producer's Pride minerals aren't very good but they are better than the one just above.

Your TSC may have this product
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/redmond-rock-all-natural-mineral-salt-7-lb?cm_vc=-10005
That would be very good in addition to your loose minerals. If they don't have it ask for them to order it.

I hope this gives you something to go on.


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## kmoore9184

Thank you


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## mariella

What do you think about Sweetlix magnum milk mineral?

Calcium, Min 7.50%
Calcium, Max 9.00%
Phosphorus, Min 8.00%
Salt, Min 10.00%
Salt, Max 12.00%
Magnesium, Min 4.50%
Cobalt, Min 240 ppm
Copper, Min 1,750 ppm
Iodine, Min 450 ppm
Manganese, Min 1.20%
Selenium, Min 50 ppm
Zinc, Min 1.20%
Vitamin A, Min 300,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D-3, Min 30,000 IU/lb
Vitamin E, Min 300 IU/lb
*INGREDIENT STATEMENT:*

Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, Processed Grain By-Products, Magnesium Oxide, Molasses Products, Roughage Products, Calcium Carbonate, Hydrolyzed Vegetable Oil, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Selenium Yeast, Brewers Dried Yeast, Mineral Oil, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Cobalt Proteinate, Sodium Molybdate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement and Red Iron Oxide.

I found a place near me where I might be able to get it.


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## Einhorn

Mariella, that's what I have and my goats seem to be doing very well. My rescue milk goat couldn't get enough of it


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## mariarose

It looks good if you can get calcium into the rest of her diet. Can you get that one?


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## jschies

Mariarose, what is your opinion on the mineral we started using. We can get it from a local supplier that will keep it in stock for us. I looked at the nutrients when we bought it, but I am not very educated about minerals. We feed alfalfa and a commercial goat feed mixed 1 to 1 along with pasture.

http://lonestarfeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/1060-Kal-Phos-12-12-Cattle.pdf


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## cwatkin

Anyone have an opinion on this product? https://kalmbachofindiana.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/11330-VF_ConceptAid_Goat.pdf I recently bought a 50lb bag is it was all I could get. That being said, it doesn't look like a bad product from what I know. Correct me if I am wrong!!!

I have used the Stockade mineral in the past. I am not sure what kind but it was one of the cheaper ones that the feed store had on hand. In the past I have also used the Purina and Manna Pro which I have been seeing listed as inadequate here.

My local place told me there was a fire or explosion at an important plant that produced minerals in Europe and getting reliable sources of any mineral product have gotten harder.

Conor


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## mariarose

Here is my personal knowledge. What you are providing is above and beyond the common offering.
Goats did not develop here, so being goats, they will be destructive here. There is not a single part of these United States they will not destroy in the rampaging need to find nutrition.

If we want to provide goats with nutrition, then one of two things need to happen. We need to provide minerals from where they evolved, or we need to spend the time to evolve them to where we want to raise them.

I'm putting effort into the latter goal, but it is a long process. What do the rest of us want to put effort into?


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## mariarose

jschies said:


> Mariarose, what is your opinion on the mineral we started using. We can get it from a local supplier that will keep it in stock for us... We feed alfalfa and a commercial goat feed mixed 1 to 1 along with pasture.
> 
> http://lonestarfeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/1060-Kal-Phos-12-12-Cattle.pdf


I like buying my minerals local when I can. They are stupidly expensive it we don't do that. Really, well done on you for finding such a good offering locally.

Please consider giving it free choice, instead of with your feed.
Your Lonestar Mineral mix would be better were there 2 to 1 calcium to phosphorus. But I don't know your total diet. My minerals are not 2 to 1 either. But I'm fine with it because of total dietary calcium being fed in my alfalfa pellets. The rest looks good from a pov of a regular supplement. I don't know this brand and I appreciate you telling us about it....


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## mariarose

cwatkin said:


> Anyone have an opinion on this product? https://kalmbachofindiana.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/11330-VF_ConceptAid_Goat.pdf


I eagerly await anyone's opinion here. But here is what I see, from my pov.

The calcium/phosphorus looks good, as does the copper level. The cobalt looks low, unless you are not in a low cobalt level. If you offer a cobalt block as well as this, you are good to go. The selenium level looks really low, and I would not mind at all seeing more iodine.

If I've not been helpful, let me know and I'll see what I can do.


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## mariella

mariarose said:


> It looks good if you can get calcium into the rest of her diet. Can you get that one?


If you were talking to me I don't know what I can get were I am. I am going to a feed store that is almost 1 hour away so I have to have some free time to check it out. I might call the feed store and see what they carry. I am really hoping they carry one of the two.

Also you have been very helpful and have taught me things I didn't know so thank you for all your help <3


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## mariarose

mariella said:


> If you were talking to me I don't know what I can get were I am.


Yes, I was talking to you, there, sorry. The Sweetlix Magnum you mentioned has a 1:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio, where the Sweetlix Meat Maker has a 2:1 ratio for the same, which is more ideal. My mineral mix has 1.5:1 but I'm not bothered because I also feed alfalfa pellets at night, which are extremely high in calcium.

I've really enjoyed interacting with you here about minerals. It's been fun.


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## ksalvagno

Sometimes you just have to buy what is local. That is fine. You just need to know what you will have to supplement further.


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## goathiker

I do know that goat producers who use the concept minerals have much better conception rates and more than double success at AI rates.


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## cwatkin

That is good to know. It sounds like this is an OK mineral with some good points as well as some bad. That selenium does look low which is one of the deficient minerals in my area. The copper is good. Also, I don't know about iodine or cobalt in the local soils and I don't find any USDA maps on this. I am located in the Missouri Ozarks if that tells anyone anything.

I will ask my local feed store about cobalt blocks next time I am there. I may also just look into what appears to be a better mineral next time.

Conor


----------



## goathiker

Actually, the veterinarians that I use are recommending rotation through 3 or 4 different brands of minerals though out the year to provide better nutrition over time.


----------



## mariarose

They'd love me, then.


----------



## intrepid-dreamer

What do you think of this one? This would help with diets that are high in phosphorus. I supply an additional cobalt block already so I wouldn't be concerned about how low that is in this mix.

http://vitaferm.com/product/?id=396

*VITAFERM® CONCEPT•AID® BALANCER - 50 LB. BAG*
*Product Number: 85040*
*Brand: VitaFerm®*
A vitamin and mineral supplement for mixing or free-choice use for beef cattle that is specifically designed for reproductive success when fed 60 days pre-calving through 60 days post-breeding. Especially beneficial in A.I. and E.T. breeding programs.

 FIND A DEALER

Details
Specs
* GUARANTEED ANALYSIS*
*Ingredient* *Amount*
Contains Amaferm® Yes
Contains MOS No
Protein % n/g
Lysine % Min ---
Calcium % Min 17.0
Phosphorus % Min ---
Salt % Min 15.0
Mag % Min 3.0
Potassium % Min 2.0
Cobalt ppm 40
Organic TMs Inside Cu, Zn, Mn
Cu ppm 2500
I ppm 200
Mn ppm 3750
Se ppm 26.4
Zn ppm 5000
Vit A IU/lb 200000
Vit D3 IU/lb 40000
Vit E IU/lb 400
Vitamin B-12 mcg/lb ---


----------



## mariarose

For my herd's needs, I'd like much more selenium, as I'm constantly trying to get more selenium into them. Other than that, it would suit me well as the herd has a high phosphorus diet. Higher levels o some nutrients than mine, lower in others.

Do you use it and like it? or considering it?


----------



## intrepid-dreamer

Its a brand that I have seen and was curious about. They make a few different formulas and I already supplement additional selenium also.


----------



## mariarose

Except for the Phosphorus, it is VERY similar to the Cargill's Right Now Onyx I used to give.


----------



## odieclark

Can’t get that one here.

Great info-thank you!


----------



## odieclark

Opinions on this mineral? Maybe it was already reviewed here?


----------



## odieclark

The suggestions here are good, but being in Wisconsin we don’t seem to have any of the southern states offerings, and the local coops don’t know or have anything specifically formulated for goats, at least that we have found. Not enough goat farms, I guess? 

We can get some of the Purina products, but have been skeptical of Purina for multiple reasons-including finding mold in a pellet we purchased, ..obviously this shouldn’t be an issue in minerals!

I have called around and cannot get any of these top recommendations


----------



## odieclark

I see the Prince mineral does not have iodine listed. I am guessing this will rule it out,


----------



## mariarose

odieclark said:


> I see the Prince mineral does not have iodine listed. I am guessing this will rule it out,


Well spotted. I don't see it in the ingredients, either. Or any cobalt. And that is really low copper. On the excellent side, it is really low in salt and so a separate salt lick won't be amiss. Cobalt salt licks are iodized. If you find a cobalt block, it should include iodine.

So this mineral, plus a cobalt block, plus extra copper, COULD work out for you. If you have a Redmond Dealer, their cobalt block has 2 times the amount of iodine of the more common blue blocks.

Kelp is also great for iodine.

What chain farm stores do you have around you? Farm and Fleet, Fleet Farm, Rural King, Stockdales, TSC?

I can't check out your non chain options, but a chain, maybe I can help know what to ask for.

One final idea.... If you are willing to order in the Sweetlix Meat Maker, even paying shipping, it could eliminate or drastically cut down the other supplementation you are having to do, like the cobalt block or the replamin gel. And simplify your life even that much. Because you don't live right with your goats like I get to.

I see this mineral as VERY workable, just be aware of the limitations.


----------



## odieclark

Mariarose 
Thank you for looking so closely! I am so impressed you so know your minerals!!! Possibly this Prince company has others as well, I didn’t know it was from Marshfield-I see their trucks all the time! My parents live in that town! ♥

But, yes we do have fleet farm within an hour drive. Tractor supply, though they have Manna pro and Purina-which i admit -no matter how good Purina might be, our entire family has a bias against purchasing Purina. .


----------



## mariarose

Fleet Farm has many cattle mineral mixes listed on the website. Unfortunately it does not show the guaranteed analysis or the ingredients of any of them. There is a Sprout Goat Mineral https://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/sp...BtkLSzPtuj_xv4LNZM_qCnBgonmr27WQaAoRgEALw_wcB that I can make out levels on. The levels look really good. The iron, though, is way high for my area. But then, that is not offered in my area (one reason why regional offerings can be better than national offerings!)

If you choose to drive there and look/evaluate in person, I'd love to know your findings and thoughts for my own education of what is out there for people. I'd do it myself, for myself, but there is no Fleet Farm around me for hundreds of miles.

And I do understand about having issues about supporting companies with my dollars that I do not want to support... Perhaps a compromise of buying a single bag of Rain and Wind Storm (that would be better for the health of your herd) while you continue to find a solution that aligns with your conscience?

I have to do that with Wal-Mart sometimes, myself. I don't want to support them, but sometimes I just need something and that is my option.

The Prince is not a bad option. Don't put off supplying the iodine, though, because what you've been using hasn't had it either.


----------



## odieclark

mariarose said:


> Fleet Farm has many cattle mineral mixes listed on the website. Unfortunately it does not show the guaranteed analysis or the ingredients of any of them. There is a Sprout Goat Mineral https://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/sp...BtkLSzPtuj_xv4LNZM_qCnBgonmr27WQaAoRgEALw_wcB that I can make out levels on. The levels look really good. The iron, though, is way high for my area. But then, that is not offered in my area (one reason why regional offerings can be better than national offerings!)
> 
> If you choose to drive there and look/evaluate in person, I'd love to know your findings and thoughts for my own education of what is out there for people. I'd do it myself, for myself, but there is no Fleet Farm around me for hundreds of miles.
> 
> And I do understand about having issues about supporting companies with my dollars that I do not want to support... Perhaps a compromise of buying a single bag of Rain and Wind Storm (that would be better for the health of your herd) while you continue to find a solution that aligns with your conscience?
> 
> I have to do that with Wal-Mart sometimes, myself. I don't want to support them, but sometimes I just need something and that is my option.
> 
> The Prince is not a bad option. Don't put off supplying the iodine, though, because what you've been using hasn't had it either.


So the Prince website





I like the thought of going to Fleet Farm! We go there weekly


----------



## odieclark

Oops. Wrong link on Prince!
Lol!

http://www.prince-corp.com/training--education1.html


----------



## odieclark

So, I don't know if Sprout minerals have changed for goats or not, but I did have a photo of the goat and sheep label off of the Sprout bags from 2016!

Thoughts?


----------



## mariarose

I was sincerely trying to puzzle that chicken video out. I had reached the conclusion it was a secret message for someone other than me.


----------



## mariarose

Well, as I said, I liked the levels very much except for that level of iron. Too high for my farm. But maybe your area really needs it. The sheep mineral has no copper, of course, so you'd need to supplement that.

Edit, I've learned more about ingredients, and I no longer care for these mineral ingredients. Not very bioavailable.


----------



## odieclark

mariarose said:


> Well, as I said, I liked the levels very much except for that level of iron. Too high for my farm. But maybe your area really needs it. The sheep mineral has no copper, of course, so you'd need to supplement that.


Well to get Sprout would make it super easy, just shocking that Sprout is actually good ! The Sprout hen feed isn't the best, but that's for hens!

It's not good for you because of iron. You have too much iron? I don't think we do, but I must look back at our water samples


----------



## mariarose

odieclark said:


> Well to get Sprout would make it super easy


Next time you go to Fleet Farm, look and compare all the choices, and you may find one of the cattle mineral mixes even better. Pick up the one you like best, and give it a shot!



odieclark said:


> The Sprout hen feed isn't the best, but that's for hens!


I like the Tennessee Farm Co-op goat minerals, but I don't like their goat feed or their cattle minerals very much. Choose the best and discard the rest!



odieclark said:


> It's not good for you because of iron. You have too much iron?


Yes, the iron would not be good for me here. I already have iron and sulphur galore, so I keep those to a minimum when I can.


----------



## Carlie Easterday

Is this type of minerals good for goats?


----------



## mariarose

@Carlie Easterday 
That is what I have access to. You are so lucky to have this, as it is regional, not national. I LOVE this mineral, and so do my goats.
P.S. they also love the Sweetlix MeatMaker.


----------



## Jubillee

I found Redmond has a Selenium 90 mix. I don't like the low copper in it so I planned to mix it with my Purina W&R. (That's what I can get here). I also offer Kelp and they get chaffhaye. We've not had any issues using that. 

I did see redmond posted recently they will be upping the copper in their goat mineral to 1600 in future formulations. So I may try that after they do so.


----------



## mariarose

I love Redmond. They are par excellence. But they are a salt supplement, not a mineral supplement. Please get an excellent mineral supplement, like Sweetlix Meatmaker, or even Co-op Surpreme goat mineral. If you add Redmond, please look at them as an excellent SALT supplement. that has added minerals.


----------



## Jubillee

Oh yes I know, that's why I plan to mix it with the Purina WRS which I've used for the last year.


----------



## mariarose

OK. What you mix with your minerals will lessen the guaranteed analysis of your chosen minerals. And the only Purina minerals I am familiar with are somewhat low anyway. Even the Wind, Rain, Storm. Would you consider offering the Redmond separately? in a separate container than the WRS?


----------



## mariarose

Oh, and FINALLY!!! my TSC is carrying a cobalt block! It isn't Redmond brand, but I've had a really hard time getting Redmond. People here are not understanding the importance of cobalt. I'm thrilled to get what I can.


----------



## Jubillee

Oh I've already considered doing it, not a big deal for me to. I haven't gotten the Redmond yet so I just haven't done it. I wish I could find some amazing minerals here but we're in a small town and our feedstore doesn't really carry much and we have what we can get at TSC.


----------



## intrepid-dreamer

mariarose said:


> Oh, and FINALLY!!! my TSC is carrying a cobalt block! It isn't Redmond brand, but I've had a really hard time getting Redmond. People here are not understanding the importance of cobalt. I'm thrilled to get what I can.


In our area all we have available is the American Stockman cobalt blocks. The goats like them. I also got them a Himalayan Salt on a rope and they like that too. I don't know what shipping would be, but you can order the cobalt blocks from a variety of stores around the United States


----------



## GoatsandCats

I have been using ManaPro. I was going to try Purina Wind and Rain Storm but when I looked at my local TSC, the bag says Fly Control. Is this safe for goats?


----------



## mariarose

GoatsandCats said:


> I have been using ManaPro. I was going to try Purina Wind and Rain Storm but when I looked at my local TSC, the bag says Fly Control. Is this safe for goats?


I try not to use it, because I use, and sometimes sell, my manure, and I just don't want that in the manure.

However, since those particular chemicals are supposed to reach the manure (in order for it to cut down on the fly population it works with preventing adult fly/manure collusion) I would say it isn't going to harm the goats themselves.

Does that make sense? At all??

Ask if they'll order some of the non-fly control for you. Tell them you are organic and can't have those chemicals (they won't know if you are or not).


----------



## GoatsandCats

mariarose said:


> I try not to use it, because I use, and sometimes sell, my manure, and I just don't want that in the manure.
> 
> However, since those particular chemicals are supposed to reach the manure (in order for it to cut down on the fly population it works with preventing adult fly/manure collusion) I would say it isn't going to harm the goats themselves.
> 
> Does that make sense? At all??
> 
> Ask if they'll order some of the non-fly control for you. Tell them you are organic and can't have those chemicals (they won't know if you are or not).


That does make sense. Thank you! I will see if TSC can order Wind and Rain without Fly Control. I have also found that my local farm store can order Sweetlix Meatmaker 16:8 for goats. Which one do you like best, Wind and Rain Storm or Sweetlix Meatmaker 16:8?


----------



## mariarose

Sweetlix Meatmaker 16:8 by far. That also comes in a medicated formulation, so if they order for you, be certain you stress you want product # 60717

But the Wind and Rain, Storm is a fine mineral.


----------



## GoatsandCats

mariarose said:


> Sweetlix Meatmaker 16:8 by far. That also comes in a medicated formulation, so if they order for you, be certain you stress you want product # 60717
> 
> But the Wind and Rain, Storm is a fine mineral.


Thank you so much for your help!


----------



## goathiker

This is going to be subjective. I would choose the wind and rain over the sweetlix any day and actually, so would my goats.


----------



## Jessica84

Ok Can I ask why both of you would choose the other? Other then Jill you basically saying your goats like wind and rain more? 
I was actually just going to ask you guys which is better since I just saw my local feed store has the meat maker. I was going to just pick it up and see if the goats like it better but figured I would ask first. If wind and rain is better I don’t see any point in seeing if my picky brats even like the meat maker


----------



## Jessica84

And what is the meat maker medicated for? UC or cocci?


----------



## mariarose

Mine just do better (I've tried both, along with my usual perpetrators. I'm always looking and trying) on the Sweetlix. Perhaps I have very different deficiencies. And of course, Goathiker and I have had very different environments for several goat generations now.

@Jessica84 
I like the cobalt level and the iodine level, and the I-need-copper signs never appeared that whole bag (this Summer), where I was giving extra copper almost immediately with the Wind and Rain, Storm (Last Summer).
I'm unhappy with the selenium levels in both of these. My regular brand is better for that. My regular is also much better in the A, D-3, and E than these 2 are.

I like to rotate minerals. This also gives me an excuse to try out a new mineral mix.

Not definitive, I know. But you deserve the best answer I can give.

I don't recall the medication purpose off hand. I'll try to find out. Found it
It is Rumensin, for Coccidiosis, product # 60720


----------



## mariarose

Here is the info page for the regular
https://www.sweetlix.com/products/60717-meat-maker-168-mineral/

Here is the info page for the medicated
https://www.sweetlix.com/products/60720-meat-maker-168-r960-mineral/

I can't find any info page for the Wind and Rain, Storm

Better than the MannaPro, Whatever is chosen, I think.


----------



## goathiker

Several reasons first being the water resistance of the product, sweetlix turns into a damp brick in a pretty short time with 80% humidity. They eat the WR even if it gets wet and it doesn't crust on their mouth and nose.


----------



## goathiker

Ingredients are much the same but do differ some in form and order. 
The first mineral in SL is ferrous sulfate. This is an easily absorbed chemical form of iron. The body pretty much can't get out of doing something with it. The last thing we need here is more iron. The WR contains iron oxide instead. This is a naturally occurring red clay that is anti-bacterial and easily ignored by the body if it's not needed. 
SL contains vegetable oil most likely GMO soy. 
WR contains non- GMO mineral oil.


----------



## Jessica84

No mine won’t touch the mannapro so I don’t even waste my money. 
Ok I think I’m going to go with the “if it’s not broke” idea. But I usually keep a bag of the cattle minerals that TSC has as a back up but I think instead of that I’ll change it to the meat maker. Where I get the wind and rain I don’t go to that town very often and sometimes they are out of the wind and rain so like to have something as a back up. Being able to just go 7 miles up the road will be a real life saver. I find it odd that the larger feed stores can’t get the meat maker, I had tried for years but our little hole in the wall feed store which actually sells more plants then anything can get it! Same as my loose selenium salt!


----------



## odieclark

Does anyone use Kent for goats? Kent for sheep?


----------



## mariarose

I can't find any nutritional information on Kent. If someone has it and would list it here, I'd be grateful. Remember, anything for sheep will be deficient in copper for goats, so if you use that, be prepared to offer copper as well.


----------



## mariarose

I found the analysis, but not the ingredients.
Calcium (Ca), min16.2%, max19.4%

Phosphorus (P), min8.0%

Salt (NaCl), min21.5%, max25.8%

Magnesium (Mg), min1.0%

Potassium (K), min0.1%

Copper (Cu), min1000 ppm

Manganese (Mn), min3500 ppm

Selenium (Se), min40 ppm

Zinc (Zn), min3500 ppm

Vitamin A, min300,000 IU/lb

Vitamin D3, min70,000 IU/lb

Vitamin E, min500 IU/lb

This is for the Kent Goat Mineral, not the sheep mineral.


----------



## odieclark

Goats comparing to sweet Liz meat maker, which we paid up for. Sheep comparing as well


----------



## odieclark

Lix


----------



## mariarose

Darn. I was hoping to "meat" Sweet Liz one day! Life is full of let-downs...

Seriously though, the Guaranteed Analysis of Kent to SweetLix Meatmaker is NOT comparable. Are you saying the ingredients are comparable?


----------



## 15WildTurkey

I’ve been using manna pro loose minerals just because it’s the only goat mineral I’ve seen in physical stores. My girls seem to do yoga to get into position to use it as a litter box. I’ve literally NEVER seen them eat any but I dump it out and refill every week or so. Or obv when it’s got poop in it. Well today I got some purina wind and rain. They fought to eat a handful from me!! The thrill of the new! I give replamin weekly so I feel good that they are getting what they needs. It just seems to make me happy to hear them crunching the sandy stuffing


----------



## mariarose

YAY!!!

Chomp, Chomp, Chomp.... Another herd bites the granules!

I'm glad you found out about Purina Wind and Rain, Storm.


----------



## 15WildTurkey

Me too. I’ll just keep riding on your knowledge coat tails if you don’t mind


----------



## mariarose

The knowledge coattails on this site encircle the globe! I look forward to learning from you, too.


----------



## odieclark

15WildTurkey said:


> Me too. I'll just keep riding on your knowledge coat tails if you don't mind


Us too!!!♥♥♥


----------



## odieclark

mariarose said:


> Darn. I was hoping to "meat" Sweet Liz one day! Life is full of let-downs...
> 
> Seriously though, the Guaranteed Analysis of Kent to SweetLix Meatmaker is NOT comparable. Are you saying the ingredients are comparable?


No not at all, just the sales people are working on us. Working on ME! Ugh,...

Trying to now fix our sheeps mineral issues though, as it seems the goats are now good-finally, thanks to all of GS research and SHARED Analysys and etc - but now what about our deer SHEEP & LAMBS???

Anyone?


----------



## odieclark

Not deer. But DEAR. 
Sheep & LAMBS! 

Mineral and supplement assistance or advice?


----------



## mariarose

I found this about sheep needs...

http://smallfarms.cornell.edu/2015/07/06/minerals-for-sheep/


----------



## odieclark

mariarose said:


> I found this about sheep needs...
> 
> http://smallfarms.cornell.edu/2015/07/06/minerals-for-sheep/


good information! I think I need to contact Alf, I did that once before so this is a great reminder! I am hoping to solve some of these issues.


----------



## Jamesgep

I never expected I would be reading this. I want to reply but don't know what to say.


----------



## mariarose

Jamesgep said:


> I want to reply but don't know what to say.


Hi! Welcome to our site and to my mineral thread. Do you have any questions about mineral mixes? What do you use?


----------



## odieclark

mariarose said:


> I found the analysis, but not the ingredients.
> Calcium (Ca), min16.2%, max19.4%
> 
> Phosphorus (P), min8.0%
> 
> Salt (NaCl), min21.5%, max25.8%
> 
> Magnesium (Mg), min1.0%
> 
> Potassium (K), min0.1%
> 
> Copper (Cu), min1000 ppm
> 
> Manganese (Mn), min3500 ppm
> 
> Selenium (Se), min40 ppm
> 
> Zinc (Zn), min3500 ppm
> 
> Vitamin A, min300,000 IU/lb
> 
> Vitamin D3, min70,000 IU/lb
> 
> Vitamin E, min500 IU/lb
> 
> This is for the Kent Goat Mineral, not the sheep mineral.


Yes, for Kent copper is lower than sweet lix, no iodine either,...still trying to figure out the sheep!


----------



## mariarose

An iodized salt lick, including regular cobalt blocks, should help with the iodine issue. Also, kelp is a great source of iodine.


----------



## Jessica84

On a different post the wonderful Maria rose asked me to post on here how adding sweet lix meat maker minerals goes.
So i keep wind and rain minerals out for the goats. They also get loose selenium salt. Recently I have not been able to find the salt I normally do but was able to get loose selenium with added zinc. The goats didn’t seem to care about the change much.
So roughly a week ago I put another mineral feeder out and added the meat maker. They can pick and choose what they want when they want basically. So for days all they did was nose around in it. The last 2 days I have had a hard time keeping up on the meat maker! This morning I actually found their feeder (which is a pan drilled onto a round of wood) at the bottom of the hill. 
They have also slowed down on the selenium salt. I’m not sure how I feel on that since I had a terrible kidding a few years ago with selenium deficiency but all I can do is cross my fingers on that. 
But of course a week in and only 2 days really consuming the minerals it is too soon to say if the meat maker is working better then the wind and rain.
Now to catch anyone up reading this, on the other post where I mentioned I bought the meat maker to try I guess some people claim that they noticed a difference in how it lowered the consumption on their cobalt blocks. My goats have not touched a cobalt block in about 3 years. I will offer to them but they don’t touch it and the blocks eventually are moved in with my cows. Right now the cattle are sucking down the cobalt blocks. 
So I figured I would do a little experiment. Keep in mind this is with calf’s not the goats.
I have a creep feeder I made for a few calf’s. I went ahead and moved a cobalt block in there and I also gave them some of the meat maker minerals. Now those calf’s love the minerals! They did from day one. But I have not seen them lay off that block yet. Again only a week but if they do and the rest of the herd still consumes the cobalt like crazy and these calf’s don’t I will be sure to report back! 
But just thought I would share


----------



## Dwarf Dad

Whoo hoo! I got some @mariarose approved minerals.
:run:


----------



## goathiker

The picture is too blurry to see the ingredients on the onyx. Last I knew they had abandoned their good multiple ingredients formula for cheap chemical sources like sulfate salts.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

my local feed store (not TSC) has carrgill onyx right now!!!!they also have this mineral. Is it a good one?
https://www.hubbardfeeds.com/product/stockmaster-12-12-12-breeder-mineral#productinfo4613


----------



## Dwarf Dad

goathiker said:


> The picture is too blurry to see the ingredients on the onyx. Last I knew they had abandoned their good multiple ingredients formula for cheap chemical sources like sulfate salts.


There are some sulfates and phophates.
Should I post full size instead of thumbnail? On my tablet when I select thunbnail it expands clearly.


----------



## mariarose

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> they also have this mineral. Is it a good one?
> https://www.hubbardfeeds.com/product/stockmaster-12-12-12-breeder-mineral#productinfo4613


With that sketchy of a Guaranteed analysis, and no ingredients, I'd have to say I'd pass. The label may be more helpful that the product page.


----------



## mariarose

@goathiker is truly excellent on the science of the ingredients. I have a current label for Onyx which I'll give the ingredients from. They may not be the same, because while Cargill Right Now minerals are a national brand, they are also somewhat localized across different parts of the country. I'll find the label and post the ingredients.


----------



## mariarose

Onyx ingredients sold in October 2018 in Kentucky.

Calcium Phosphate
Monocalcium Phosphate
Calcium Carbonate
Sodium Chloride
Magnesium Oxide
Zinc Sulfate
Manganese Sulfate
Copper Sulfate
Ethylinediamine dihydriodide
Calcium Iodate
Cobalt Carbonate
Potassium Chloride
Iron Oxide
Sodium Selenite
Selenium Yeast
Copper Amino Acid Complex
Manganese Amino Acid Complex
Cobalt Glucoheptonate
Zinc Amino Acid Complex
Vitamin A Supplement
Vitamin D Supplement
Vitamin E Supplement
Processed Grain By-Products
Molasses Products
Animal Fat and Vegetable Oil with 2 different preservatives that I don't feel like typing out all those letters.
Looks good to me.

This is what I'm currently feeding because the weatherizing is the best of all I've tried. My weather has defeated everything else. California, I'm so sorry. If I could send you my rain and current sleet, I surely would.

@goathiker offers Purina Wind and Rain, Storm. I have a label for the Purina W&R,S the 7.5. When I find it, I'll post the ingredients for that one to0, for comparison. I do not know if she feeds the 7.5 or some other one.

Here are the ingredients of Purina Wind and Rain, Storm, 7.5
Dicalcium Phosphate
Monocalcium Phosphate
Calcium Carbonate
Sodium Chloride
Processed Grain Byproducts
Vegetable Fat
Plant Protein Products
Potassium Chloride
Mineral Oil
Sodium Selenite
Magnesium Oxide
Molasses Products
Iron Oxide
Vitamin E Supplement
Vitamin D3 Supplement
Vitamin A Supplement
Natural and Artificial Flavors
Calcium Lignon Sulfanate
Ethoxyquin (preservative)
Manganese Sulfate
Zinc Sulfate
Basic Copper Chloride
Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide
Cobalt Carbonate


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> Onyx ingredients sold in October 2018 in Kentucky.
> 
> Calcium Phosphate
> Monocalcium Phosphate
> Calcium Carbonate
> Sodium Chloride
> Magnesium Oxide
> Zinc Sulfate
> Manganese Sulfate
> Copper Sulfate
> Ethylinediamine dihydriodide
> Calcium Iodate
> Cobalt Carbonate
> Potassium Chloride
> Iron Oxide
> Sodium Selenite
> Selenium Yeast
> Copper Amino Acid Complex
> Manganese Amino Acid Complex
> Cobalt Glucoheptonate
> Zinc Amino Acid Complex
> Vitamin A Supplement
> Vitamin D Supplement
> Vitamin E Supplement
> Processed Grain By-Products
> Molasses Products
> Animal Fat and Vegetable Oil with 2 different preservatives that I don't feel like typing out all those letters.
> Looks good to me.
> 
> This is what I'm currently feeding because the weatherizing is the best of all I've tried. My weather has defeated everything else. California, I'm so sorry. If I could send you my rain and current sleet, I surely would.
> 
> @goathiker offers Purina Wind and Rain, Storm. I have a label for the Purina W&R,S the 7.5. When I find it, I'll post the ingredients for that one to0, for comparison. I do not know if she feeds the 7.5 or some other one.


Same ingredients as the one I bought. I don't know the difference in ingredients that @goathiker was stating. 
I am going to put the onyx out in seperate container like @Jessica84 and see what happens.


----------



## odieclark

Our coats on our goats still seem rippled. I need to get a better photo but still feel our minerals are lacking,.. tails haven’t totally recovered yet either after copper bolusGoats


----------



## mariarose

You all know, probably know, by now that I'm not a fan of "THE" answer, because I just really don't think that "THE" answer exists in any meaningful form. But @Jessica84 keeps bringing this site up, and for those of us with more than just 2 goats, maybe this really is a "THE" answer worth considering....
https://www.abcplus.biz/Sheep_Goats_12_Mineral_Kit. Good for sheep, too, @odieclark because they can ignore the copper if they need to, and the ingredients do sound mighty OK to me...
I don't like that I have to order the selenium separately, but the zinc is in there @Dwarf Dad.

Puttin' it out there for y'all.


----------



## mariarose

Jessica84 said:


> Recently I have not been able to find the salt I normally do but was able to get loose selenium [salt] with added zinc.


I'd be super interested in that myself. I always need selenium, and I'm trying to find a good way to get more zinc. Do you have a brand name or a product page I could check out, maybe see if I could order it?


Jessica84 said:


> I put another mineral feeder out and added the meat maker. They can pick and choose what they want when they want basically. So for days all they did was nose around in it. The last 2 days I have had a hard time keeping up on the meat maker!


Is that still happening?


Jessica84 said:


> if the rest of the [cattle] herd still consumes the cobalt like crazy and these calf's don't I will be sure to report back!


Anything? Are they still consuming both with ferocity?


----------



## Jessica84

I pulled the stinking tag off the salt and the bag is just white  BUT I have to run up there today or tomorrow (hopefully) and I’ll look at a tag on a bag they have there. 
For the most part they have calmed down on all minerals but before that they were going after just the meat maker. 
The cattle, we have grass starting and the calf’s don’t really go into the creep feeder now so haven’t touched the minerals. Everyone seems to be eating all the blocks (mineral, selenium, sulfur, cobalt and just white) equally. Maybe because it’s getting cold? They seem to always slow down when it cools off but it could also be because they are getting minerals from the small amount of grass we have now.


----------



## mariarose

Jessica84 said:


> I pulled the stinking tag off the salt and the bag is just white  BUT I have to run up there today or tomorrow (hopefully) and I'll look at a tag on a bag they have there.


:waiting:


----------



## Jessica84

I know! I’m sorry! Ok AG Farmers feed is what it said on the bag, it’s a sheep salt. I forgot to take my phone with me so didn’t get a picture of the tag. Let me know if you can’t find it and I’ll just buy another bag, it won’t go to waste lol


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> :waiting:





Jessica84 said:


> I know! I'm sorry!


It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature!


----------



## elvis&oliver

Following this good thread.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

@mariarose, what ppm of zinc and selenium are considered deficient?
I found the data for where I live, I just don't know what point I am starting from.


----------



## mariarose

You want the ratio of copper to zinc to be as close to 1:4 as you can make it. My usual mineral mix, the Supreme Goat Mineral which I've always highly recommended for most people, has 80 ppm of selenium and I'm still usually looking for ways to supplement.

Honestly, I take mineral maps with a grain of salt (see the joke I did there?) They are indications, but out of date, and no one I know raises all feed at the same place, Yes, the browse is right here, but hay comes from over there, grain comes from who knows where...

I have to keep watching my herd and adjusting to what I see. I don't have a simple answer, but observation and adjustments can make these generalities work for you.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> Honestly, I take mineral maps with a grain of salt (see the joke I did there?)


You so funny.


mariarose said:


> I have to keep watching my herd and adjusting to what I see. I don't have a simple answer, but observation and adjustments can make these generalities work for you.


Affirmative. Time and patience. A lot of one and never enough of the other. I guess record keeping, ugg, would help.


----------



## mariarose

I forgot to mention that the maps may well show your area to be sufficient, but not account for the presence of antagonists. Making it the same effect of not having enough.
Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> I forgot to mention that the maps may well show your area to be sufficient, but not account for the presence of antagonists. Making it the same effect of not having enough.
> Hope that makes sense.


Yes it does. I need to learn what the individual mineral counts mean when combined.


----------



## mariarose

I'm too ignorant to help with that.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> I'm too ignorant to help with that.


Then I had best leave that alone and just learn from my goats.

Uh, oh. I just re-read my post. I did not mean that you were less smart than my goats,:heehee:, I meant if you didn't know then my learning capabilities would fall short for sure.


----------



## Kaylam

Hi, I am printing out the Guaranteed Analysis’s of the minerals that I am using and interested in using. I’m a very visual person, I’m learning. So after doing some searching and not finding it here, does someone have the GA of Purina Wind and Rain Storm? Tia


----------



## Kaylam

Hi, I am printing out the Guaranteed Analysis’s of the minerals that I am using and interested in using. I’m a very visual person, I’m learning. So after doing some searching and not finding it here, does someone have the GA of Purina Wind and Rain Storm? Tia


----------



## Dwarf Dad

I found this on Tractor Supply. According to Purina website, they have formulations with different phosphorous percentages.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Calcium (Ca) (min.) 14%
Calcium (Ca) (max.) 16%
Phosphorus (P) (min.) 7.5%
Salt (NaCl) (min.) 19%
Salt (NaCl) (max.) 21%
Magnesium (Mg) (min.) 1%
Potassium (K) (min.) 1%
Zinc (Zn) (min.) 3,600 ppm
Manganese (Mn) (min.) 3600 ppm
Cobalt (Co) (min.) 12 ppm
Copper (Cu) (min.) 1200 ppm
Iodine (I) (min.) 60 ppm
Selenium (Se) (min.) 27 ppm
Vitamin A (min.) 300,000 IU/lb.
Vitamin D (min.) 30,000 IU/lb.
Vitamin E (min.) 300 IU/lb.


----------



## mariarose

I've misplaced that darned tag.... AGAIN!!! but there are a couple of things I remember. The copper for the 7.5 formulation was 1200. The zinc was exactly 3 times (not 4 times) the copper. the selenium was 26 ppm.

When I find that tag again, I'll gladly type it out here, @Kaylam

There are other formulations of Purina Wind and Rain, Storm. There are a 12, a Fly Control, and a High Mag. I can't speak to ANY of those other formulations. I just wanna be clear on that point.

Yesterday I went back to my favourite minerals after a break with others, and they haven't stopped fighting over them yet. I bought them on my way home from the sale barn and immediately poured them out.

Now the only time anyone is at the PW&R,S minerals is when they get beaten out of both the Cargill's Onyx AND the Supreme (my favourite. The Purina is definitely in last place of what I have on offer at the moment.


----------



## Jessica84

My tag is a tad different, not much but still here's the tag


----------



## mariarose

Bless you @Jessica84 I could easily have misremembered 26 instead of 27 for the Selenium. So awesome you posted the actual tag.


----------



## Kaylam

Hmm, I don’t think my bag has a number on it like 7.5 or 8.5.


----------



## mariarose

Kaylam said:


> Hmm, I don't think my bag has a number on it like 7.5 or 8.5.


Can you post a picture of the bag, maybe? that will tell us a lot...


----------



## Kaylam

Ok, I threw away the tag then. I didn't remember it having a tag. So I can just take one of the above and print it out. But first, just to make sure, I will post a picture because I don't see a number on mine and I want to be certain I get the right info for it. Thanks everyone!


----------



## mariarose

7.5








High Magnesium








Fly Control








Still trying to find the 12


----------



## Kaylam

Ok so I have that red bag on top. It doesn’t appear to have a number on it but that number must be on the tag as is pictured on Jessica84 photo. Is that right?


----------



## mariarose

To me, your bag totally looks like the 7.5, so I think you can trust what @Dwarf Dad and @Jessica84 have given us.


----------



## Kaylam

Thank you All


----------



## Jessica84

This is the first time I have seen that number on the tag. It might be something new they are doing, but it did come off the red bag  it actually confused me too when I looked at it but thought maybe it’s always been there and I just never noticed.......trust me now a days that is a very real possibility!!!


----------



## Kaylam

Got it printed!


----------



## odieclark

Teach us!


----------



## Island Milker

here is a list of what i found at the local horse supply its by otter coop


----------



## Dwarf Dad

https://www.purinamills.com/cattle-feed/products/detail/purina-wind-and-rain-all-season
This web page says red bag comes in these formulations:
Available in various formulations to meet cattle needs based on forage quality.
Purina® Wind and Rain® Storm® Formulas: 
All Season 4* Complete
All Season 7* Complete
All Season 7.5* Complete
All Season 10* Complete 
All Season 12* Complete
_ *Number denotes % phosphorus_


----------



## Kaylam

A new question comes to my mind?! What phosphorus content is best? Does it depend on hay or pasture? I currently have the goats on a mix of orchard grass and alfalfa, although I’m not sure there’s much alfalfa in it.


----------



## mariarose

That's a good question. I don't have an answer, but I do believe it will change according to what else is in the diet.

I found this in the Merck Vet Manual
"*Phosphorus* deficiency results in slowed growth, unthrifty appearance, and occasionally a depraved appetite. Goats can maintain milk production on phosphorus-deficient diets for several weeks by using phosphorus from body reserves, but during long periods of phosphorus deficiency, milk production was shown to decline by 60%. The calcium: phosphorus ratio should be maintained between 1:1 and 2:1, preferably 1.2-1.5:1 in goats because of their predisposition for urinary calculi. Phosphorus deficiency in grazing goats is more likely than a calcium deficiency. In cases of struvite calculi, the ratio should be maintained at 2:1."

Not an actual level, but it does talk about a deficiency. I have to go now, I'll keep looking for some sort of actual number, but so far I'm seeing that ratio over and over... Which isn't what we are asking about.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

I don't know if this helps, here is a page. Table 2 says %.2 or %.3 of total feed, depending on age, etc.
https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/nutritional-feeding-management-of-meat-goats


----------



## mariarose

The title of this is completely shock-value driven, because the article clearly places human sweat and cooking water on a par with urine. However, this is a recognition of how important minerals are even to wild ruminants.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a23511011/olympic-national-park-goats-urine/


----------



## mariarose

For anyone who has a Do-It Center around them...
https://www.doitbest.com/categories/salt-blocks-salt-and-supplies
I'd no idea they even had a livestock section. Mine seems to think it is a tiny little Lowes...


----------



## mariarose

goatblessings said:


> Love these minerals from Rowe - they work closely with the University of Kentucky and also do trials, etc. My girls do very well on it!


I'm still looking for a way to try the Rowe 8% Brood Cow. Frustrating!


----------



## mariarose

Here is a curious thing. I've been going gray for some time, years and years. A few months ago, I started taking this product...
https://smile.amazon.com/Natures-Li...XGKF9DF3MP2&psc=1&refRID=DZPDN4XBMXGKF9DF3MP2 as I started learning more about the effects of zinc deficiencies, especially on the immune system.
My gray is going away... Seriously.


----------



## Tall Pines Ranch

mariarose said:


> Here is a curious thing. I've been going gray for some time, years and years. A few months ago, I started taking this product...
> https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000I4C1PU/ref=sns_myd_detail_page as I started learning more about the effects of zinc deficiencies, especially on the immune system.
> My gray is going away... Seriously.


That's really interesting. I'm going to have to see what I can find.
Thanks for the tip mariarose.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> Here is a curious thing. I've been going gray for some time, years and years. A few months ago, I started taking this product...
> https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000I4C1PU/ref=sns_myd_detail_page as I started learning more about the effects of zinc deficiencies, especially on the immune system.
> My gray is going away... Seriously.


You found the fountain of youth! LaSalle and De Soto went right by! Who new.


----------



## mariarose

I swear, this has taken me by surprise. I've been digging into mineral effects on goats for a long time now. Some of that research had to spill over into other species. Well, it just had to. I found a good bio-available form of zinc with just a touch of copper and started taking it, irregularly, over the past few months. I rarely look in the mirror anyway, but finally, I couldn't ignore the change. Husband confirmed it, too.

Of course, I knew my diet hasn't been the best, and I knew I had deficiencies. I wanted to focus on my immune system because so much is on me right now and I can't stop. So I chose to get extra zinc.

I'll let y'all know if this changes...


----------



## Dwarf Dad

I had given it a little thought. Not enough to research or put on shopping list. Over all are you feeling any better?


----------



## mariarose

Dwarf Dad said:


> Over all are you feeling any better?


That's complicated. I'm exhausted, and sometimes run a fever, etc. I never feel completely, totally, well and happy.

But I've not come down completely ill like I was earlier in the year, last Winter, Spring, and Summer. I've had no antibiotics for a long time now.

All in all, I do believe I'm better off than if I weren't taking it.


----------



## Mmhyronimus

I was wonderiby if someone would look over the mineral I use and tell me if there is anything I'm missing in it. The goats love it, but I want to make sure its well-rounded.


----------



## mariarose

I love the list of ingredients! The rest of what I say is going to be based on what I would need for my herd.

The salt is higher than I would find ideal, but not horrifically. The zinc is less than the 4 to 1 that I'd like to see in relation to the copper. The selenium and vitamin E are lower than I need, but I do NOT know what SD needs. The vitamin D is lower than I like.

This may be exactly what you need for SD and I do like the ingredients.

Here is the nutritional info on my favourite mineral for comparison, @Mmhyronimus The level of D-3 in this is 125,000 (per emailed information to my question)








https://www.ourcoop.com/productcatalog/Main/PdfViewer.aspx?el=58310


----------



## rgdlljames

I hope you don't mind me chiming in here but would you look at the minerals I've been thinking about giving my goats? It's Record Rack Deer and Elk Minerals. I don't like the Purina Goat Minerals that I have been giving my goats and want to change to something else. This seems to be the only other option in Northern Michigan. Here is the info on it:







I've also seen where people are giving their goats the Purina Wind and Rain Storm All Season Minerals. Would this be better for them? I can get that at our TSC too. 
Thank you for your input!


----------



## mariarose

Purina Cattle minerals would be so much better for your goats. That mineral you showed is for growing huge antlers (racks) for trophy hunting of deer, (grow them fast so you can kill them fast) not for goat longevity, productivity, and health.

It's also super high in salt, so helps train deer to go to that lick. Helps hunters know where to set up so they can get their quota.

It would be better than nothing, but not better than what is more commonly supplied to cattle. The deer are meant to roam and get the missing parts of their nutrition elsewhere. Cattle and goats aren't supposed to roam and depend upon us bringing their nutrition to them.

I'm so glad you stopped and added your thoughts. I want this to be an ongoing educational thread, so I appreciate you. Feel free to read through the thread, and just asking your local feed suppliers if they can order the specific products mentioned, can really surprise you what all might be available to you.

Best of luck. Please let me know what you find!


----------



## mariarose

P.S. I don't like the Purina Goat Minerals either! Amazing how they can be so spot on sometimes and so horribly off other times... Makes you wonder if you are dealing with different corporations sometimes, doesn't it?


----------



## rgdlljames

Thank you @mariarose! Are are AWESOME!!!


----------



## rgdlljames

mariarose said:


> P.S. I don't like the Purina Goat Minerals either! Amazing how they can be so spot on sometimes and so horribly off other times... Makes you wonder if you are dealing with different corporations sometimes, doesn't it?


I know! It blows my mind how different they all are! Makes my head spin! I'll check with my local feed store (not TSC) and see if they can get in the Supreme Goat Minerals that is your favorite. Never hurts to ask, right?


----------



## mariarose

I doubt they will, because it is regional, but it won't hurt to show them the nutritional info and ask how close they can come!

Also, ask if they can get Cargill Right Now, Onyx, Or Sweetlix MeatMaker Unmedicated. They might surprise you with what they might order. Product numbers really help with that.

And in the meantime? Purina W&RS is great. You might try it and never budge. Not everyone is as eager to engage in mineral infidelity as I am!


----------



## rgdlljames

mariarose said:


> Not everyone is as eager to engage in mineral infidelity as I am!


LOL!!! :heehee:


----------



## mariarose

rgdlljames said:


> I know! It blows my mind how different they all are! Makes my head spin!


Here is a fantastic thread on minerals, from a different point of view. @HoosierShadow started it.
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/not-eating-minerals.200673/


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> I swear, this has taken me by surprise. I've been digging into mineral effects on goats for a long time now. Some of that research had to spill over into other species. Well, it just had to. I found a good bio-available form of zinc with just a touch of copper and started taking it, irregularly, over the past few months. I rarely look in the mirror anyway, but finally, I couldn't ignore the change. Husband confirmed it, too.
> 
> Of course, I knew my diet hasn't been the best, and I knew I had deficiencies. I wanted to focus on my immune system because so much is on me right now and I can't stop. So I chose to get extra zinc.
> 
> I'll let y'all know if this changes...


I just realized that last year I was taking zinc from that bottle you posted a picture of. For about the first half of the year , while taking the zinc, I was feeling good and working around here a lot. Ran out of zinc sometime in July or August, and I have started a lot of projects and just don't feel like finishing. I don't know what it is. My dad called dropsy, my butt dropped onto couch and it doesn't want to get up. Nothing is worth expending the energy needed to complete things.
I wonder......


----------



## Dwarf Dad

Wow. I just checked symptoms of zinc deficiency. Finger nails cracking. Dry skin. Others.

Thank you for waking me up @mariarose !


----------



## mariarose

Dwarf Dad said:


> I just checked symptoms of zinc deficiency.


I'm telling you, Minerals! I'm sounding like the crazy mineral lady by now, but I'm just astounded by what I keep learning.

I'm thinking of changing my name to MineralMaria!


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> I'm telling you, Minerals! I'm sounding like the crazy mineral lady by now, but I'm just astounded by what I keep learning.


That is fine with me. I for one will follow your lead. I may be crazy, too.



mariarose said:


> I'm thinking of changing my name to MineralMaria!


That just doesn't have the same appeal or verbal flow as mariarose.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

I read where five fried oysters has four hundred and some odd percent of RDA of zinc, I wonder about a dozen on the half shell or a dozen charbroiled from Drago's in Metarie, LA?


----------



## mariarose

LOL, I'll never know!


----------



## murandalisa

mariarose said:


> I'm so blessed. I have access to many good mineral choices! Co-op Supreme, Cargill's Right Now Onyx, and now Sweetlix Meat Maker. I know others of you are not, and I feel guilty. But....Yay, ME!!! To heck with Manna Pro.
> 
> Of course, I still have to order so much, but not loose mineral mix. Yay!


Is this the correct one?


----------



## mariarose

murandalisa said:


> Is this the correct one?


Sweetlix MeatMaker 16:8 (not medicated) is an excellent mineral mix. But I fear the shipping from Jeffers will be very expensive for you.

What do you have locally that you can buy?

What are the names of your local livestock stores?


----------



## mariarose

Dwarf Dad said:


> I had given it a little thought. Not enough to research or put on shopping list. Over all are you feeling any better?


Dwarf Dad, I have something specific to report on this now. My husband has been sick as a dog for several days now. Sore throat, bad headache, nausea, diarrhea. So sick that the VA cancelled his appointments.

Normally, I'd've gotten as sick as he (we basically live in one room in the Winter, no avoiding each other's germs) I got a sore-ish throat, and later that day a pretty bad headache. Today, I'm back to normal. That's WITH me being the one to go out in this weather and do all the chores. I'm certain this is due to me taking the extra zinc, as my diet has been worse than usual (just grabbing something on the go)

This isn't conclusive, I know. But you had asked. I know that had this happened last year I'd've been flat out.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

Glad you did not get sick! Now the hard part, get your husband to start taking it, too. Just so happened that I picked up some zinc today.
I am a firm believer in zinc. Zicam is always used by me when I get symptoms of a cold. I started whenever it was that cold-eze first came on the market. Lozenges were first, I like the oral spray now.
Just never had purposely taken zinc full time because I was scared of toxicitidy.
Thank you again


----------



## Jessica84

First off- I guess I’m going to try zinc if it’s good for dry skin! I have suffered from bad dry skin for the last 5 years and have tried everything even super expensive oil to put on my skin :/
But ok I just wanted to update about the meat maker mineral experiment  I may not have started this at the correct time since my does have been super heavy bred (and recently popping lol) but the only real huge difference I have seen is how much they are also consuming the selenium/ zinc salt. I can not keep enough in front of them. I ran out of the meat maker about a week ago and just have them wind and rain in front of them, also moms with kids are apart from prego, so I’ll hopefully have enough time to see if they are just eating that salt because they are heavy bred and need the selenium, which could be a very good possibility! Or because of the minerals. They really didn’t even blink a eye sucking down the wind and rain instead of the Meat maker. I think this is something I will have to play with for a year before I can really come up with a conclusion lol 
Also one thing I did notice about kids being born, again I’m not sure if this has anything to do with the minerals, the selenium salt, or just because the does like the never do anything predictable, but the kids have been SUPER out going as soon as they are born. They are on their feet and nursing really fast!


----------



## mariarose

So in early November, you set out Sweetlix MeatMaker as well as the Purina, Wind and Rain, Storm, 7.5. It took a few days but they started eating it well, but in the last week...


Jessica84 said:


> I ran out of the meat maker about a week ago and just have them wind and rain in front of them,


and now they are fine with switching


Jessica84 said:


> They really didn't even blink a eye sucking down the wind and rain instead of the Meat maker.


Goathiker has mentioned to me there are benefits to switching minerals from time to time. And it sounds like you've successfully added a quality mineral to your rotation.


Jessica84 said:


> the kids have been SUPER out going as soon as they are born. They are on their feet and nursing really fast!


And it is possible that the addition of the MeatMaker mineral mix could have contributed to this, and also that the new selenium salt with added zinc could have contributed to this, or both could have helped? Because both were added in the last half of the gestation is what I'm picking up.


Jessica84 said:


> Ok AG Farmers feed is what it said on the bag, it's a sheep salt. I forgot to take my phone with me so didn't get a picture of the tag.


I know you have your hands full! and are not going to town anytime soon. But when you do, I'd still love a picture of that tag of Sheep salt with added zinc.

Thanks so much for taking the time to update! How did the calves do on the Sweetlix?


----------



## Jessica84

The selenium/ zinc salt they hated that stuff at first but yes they sucked it down probably the last month. For the last 2 years I have put selenium salt out, this was the first time with this (added zinc). Last year they seemed to really eat the salt the whole time I had it out and they were bred, as in all 5 months really well. 
The calf’s as soon as we got these last 2 loads of really good hay and the grass started they have not been back to the creep feeder, which was not long after I posted the last update so I have no idea how they would have done full time. I did though put my jersey cow in with the buck, she is due next month and I haven’t seen either one really touch the minerals. 
And I will get you that tag! Maybe I can call them and have them just read it to me, they are interesting kids there so I’ll see how that goes lol


----------



## mariarose

Damfino said:


> Quote whatever you like. I'm glad it was insightful.


Thank you. I shall. With impunity.

*"Spring is when my goats have a "copper crisis". Our soil is very high in molybdenum, which binds with copper and selenium and blocks absorption, so when the grass first comes in all my goats get rusty overnight. Once it starts, no amount of bolusing seems to fix it. I bought the copper blocks two years ago in the summer after we had a major copper and selenium crisis. I'd been feeding alfalfa all winter--huge mistake when your pastures are also high in Mo! They went nuts over the copper blocks for a few weeks and then ignored them the rest of the year. Then last spring they attacked them again and I had to buy more. It wasn't quite enough to completely solve the problem, but it helped a lot.

It also helped that I stopped feeding alfalfa. I've gotten scolded for that a few times by dairy goat people, but hey... I can't deal with the birthing problems associated with Se deficiency. Vets here won't prescribe BoSe and I don't blame them. We have too much Se in our soil, so the vets see a lot of Se poisoning and very little deficiency. I've even lost a horse to Se poisoning, so we have to be very careful how much we supplement. However, having antagonists like Mo can wipe out the benefit of having Se-rich soil during certain parts of the year.

Of course, how much Se ends up in the forage depends a lot on what type of year we have. The topsoil is low in Se while the subsoil is toxically high in places. The weather patterns affect which plants grow. Deep-rooted weeds (such as gumweed and locoweed) tap into the Se-rich subsoil and draw it into the plants. Some years we see a ton of gumweed in our pastures and that's a sign for me to watch out for Se poisoning. The horses show it by losing their manes and tails, and goats can go bald along their spines. One year I noticed a lot of gumweed and the horses were going bald, so I put out a sulfur block and their manes and tails stopped falling out. The goats went for the sulfur a lot that summer too. It's amazing how the weather affects which minerals come up in your pastures and browse!

It's also amazing how bad my goats looked on a rich alfalfa diet. I thought I was doing them a favor with that super-green, sweet-smelling 4th cutting stuff I bought that winter. Then all of my does had birthing problems and needed help. Every kid was a malpresentation. Every. Single. One. We had legs back, breach, head back, etc, but not one normal birth. Several had crooked legs. Two were so bad we had to splint them. We lost the kid with the head back. It was a disaster. I'm never feeding alfalfa again except as a supplement. That was also the year my goat Sputnik's front feet turned funny. He looks like a horse that was raised on too much alfalfa when young--super upright pasterns that almost knuckle over the front. He had a major growth spurt that spring and his joints turned funny. I'm convinced it has to do with the alfalfa everyone ate that year."*

Thank you so very much. You illustrate why there is no hard and fast rules about what to give goats. Simplistic answers, other than paying attention to how your goats are actually doing under your care, will do you, and your herd, a disservice. I'm so grateful for your education here.


----------



## forkedpath

You turned me on to this mineral mix over a year ago and my boos are just all over it like candy. We don't mix it into feed yet, but may soon, as we're about to move up to the cement mixer level of feed mixing. Lol! Funny how you can go from two goats, to buying just the right couple of (who knew?) bred does, and one little odd ball (that was SUPPOSED to be bred, of course) and suddenly your at NINE! With more on the way! Oh life is good! Thanks so much for your great advice. These minerals are awesome!


----------



## mariarose

@forkedpath I'm so glad you've given me an update. I think I remember that you chose to go with the Sweetlix MeatMaker, right? Really happy you are happy with it.

Yes. They sure can multiply on you! An episode of the original Star Trek was titled, The Trouble With Tribbles
Tribbles were cute, fuzzy, adorable things that loved everyone but Klingons (This was back when all Klingons were BAD) Anyway, they were born pregnant and multiplied at a tremendous rate. Soon there were Tribbles everywhere. Nigerian Dwarves and Pygmies can feel a lot like Tribbles to me.

I don't recommend putting the mineral mix in your feed. I recommend you keep it loose and free choice.


----------



## mariarose

I long, yearn even, to find/try this mineral








Because KY is held together with fescue.

If anyone could help me find it, or let me pay them to send me a bag (with tag, please) to try, I would be so eternally grateful. Also, I'm still stymied in my quest to find the Rowe Premix (mentioned previously in this thread) Same yearning. If any could help, I'll love ya forever (or until you diss my goats!)


----------



## B.yusko

mariarose said:


> OOOHHHHH. OK. Sorry.
> 
> I don't know any of your regional offerings. Here is the regional offering I like and use
> http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73
> 
> Here is another regional offering that is decent, if you have a Southern States near you. I don't like their other formulations.
> https://www.southernstates.com/cata...itions-weathershed-21-beef-mineral-50-lb.aspx
> 
> Here is another really nice regional mix, I'd write and ask about the Cobalt level. They say it has cobalt, but it is not on the GA
> http://www.ranch-way.com/products/minerals-salt/updated-ranch-o-min-breeding-performance-w-hi-copper
> 
> The following national brands are all superior to Manna Pro, imo, ranked from most favoured to least favoured on my farm.
> 
> Sweetlix Meat Maker 16-8
> Cargill's Right Now Onyx
> Purina Wind and Rain, Storm.
> Purina 6% Phosphorus, here is a link https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-6-phosphorus-cattle-mineral-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005
> 
> All the above are vastly superior to the Manna Pro, again, imo. But my imo isn't ignorant blathering.
> 
> I hope this is helpful, more helpful than what I offered before.





mariarose said:


> OOOHHHHH. OK. Sorry.
> 
> I don't know any of your regional offerings. Here is the regional offering I like and use
> http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73
> 
> Here is another regional offering that is decent, if you have a Southern States near you. I don't like their other formulations.
> https://www.southernstates.com/cata...itions-weathershed-21-beef-mineral-50-lb.aspx
> 
> Here is another really nice regional mix, I'd write and ask about the Cobalt level. They say it has cobalt, but it is not on the GA
> http://www.ranch-way.com/products/minerals-salt/updated-ranch-o-min-breeding-performance-w-hi-copper
> 
> The following national brands are all superior to Manna Pro, imo, ranked from most favoured to least favoured on my farm.
> 
> Sweetlix Meat Maker 16-8
> Cargill's Right Now Onyx
> Purina Wind and Rain, Storm.
> Purina 6% Phosphorus, here is a link https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-6-phosphorus-cattle-mineral-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005
> 
> All the above are vastly superior to the Manna Pro, again, imo. But my imo isn't ignorant blathering.
> 
> I hope this is helpful, more helpful than what I offered before.


Florida sucks for minerals  literally all the ones you highly recommend first are not located in Florida at all ! The closest would be GA.. so I ended ordering the sweetlix since it was higher on your list then the wind and rain but thankfully we have TSC all over so I can get their minerals ! But is it the wind and rain "all seasons" or the "fly control" ? The one link you posted in here was for the fly control one but I keep seeing everyone reference the red bag which is all seasons !


----------



## mariarose

When I posted that, they did not have a link for the All Season, or one for the Hi Mag, like they do now. So I posted the link they had. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## mariarose

@B.yusko 
Southern States in Florida
https://www.southernstates.com/farm-store/store-locator?address=Florida
I can recommend 2 minerals from Southern States


----------



## B.yusko

mariarose said:


> @B.yusko
> Southern States in Florida
> https://www.southernstates.com/farm-store/store-locator?address=Florida
> I can recommend 2 minerals from Southern States


okay yes I have two locations I can call to see if they carry what you recommend!


----------



## mariarose

OK, Hold on, let me give you the products I'm talking about.
I like this one
https://www.southernstates.com/cata...ression-weathershed-beef-breeder-hi-mag-50-lb
and then this one
https://www.southernstates.com/cata...-traditions-weathershed-21-beef-mineral-50-lb


----------



## mariarose

On page 2 of the following document, you will find Florida dealers of Right Now minerals. If you see any within driving distance, call and ask if they have Cargill's Right Now, Onyx. If not, see if/when they can get one in.
https://www.cargill.com/doc/1432082143197/rnm-southeast-doc.pdf
Remember, one of these bags (of any brand) will last you a long time. So there is no harm in driving a bit out of your way every once in a while?


----------



## mariarose

A dealer locator for Sweetlix, just put in your zip code.
I don't know if they have any dealers in Florida, but with Florida being such a huge cattle state, and Florida being extremely cobalt deficient, I'll be surprised to find out they don't.
https://www.sweetlix.com/distributors/
Remember, If they are a dealer, they can probably order what you want. They don't have to constantly have it in stock. All you can do is start to ask.

You already know where to get the Purina...


----------



## B.yusko

mariarose said:


> OK, Hold on, let me give you the products I'm talking about.
> I like this one
> https://www.southernstates.com/cata...ression-weathershed-beef-breeder-hi-mag-50-lb
> and then this one
> https://www.southernstates.com/cata...-traditions-weathershed-21-beef-mineral-50-lb


For some reason these links won't work for me


----------



## B.yusko

mariarose said:


> On page 2 of the following document, you will find Florida dealers of Right Now minerals. If you see any within driving distance, call and ask if they have Cargill's Right Now, Onyx. If not, see if/when they can get one in.
> https://www.cargill.com/doc/1432082143197/rnm-southeast-doc.pdf
> Remember, one of these bags (of any brand) will last you a long time. So there is no harm in driving a bit out of your way every once in a while?


Do you prefer this cargills right now onyx first over the souther states?


----------



## mariarose

B.yusko said:


> For some reason these links won't work for me


I'm sorry. I don't know why because they work fine for me. The sku# for the first one is 57920001
the sku# for the second is 57924001


B.yusko said:


> Do you prefer this cargills right now onyx first over the souther states?


I equally prefer the Onyx and the first Southern States offering (Genetic Expression Weathershed Beef Breeder Hi-Mag).

I prefer the Onyx over the second Southern States. (Traditions Weathershed 2:1 Beef)
All three are good minerals.


----------



## B.yusko

mariarose said:


> I'm sorry. I don't know why because they work fine for me. The sku# for the first one is 57920001
> the sku# for the second is 57924001
> 
> I equally prefer the Onyx and the first Southern States offering (Genetic Expression Weathershed Beef Breeder Hi-Mag).
> 
> I prefer the Onyx over the second Southern States. (Traditions Weathershed 2:1 Beef)
> All three are good minerals.


Awesome I'll get to work on finding these ! Thanks so much for taking so much time to help me


----------



## B.yusko

mariarose said:


> I'm sorry. I don't know why because they work fine for me. The sku# for the first one is 57920001
> the sku# for the second is 57924001
> 
> I equally prefer the Onyx and the first Southern States offering (Genetic Expression Weathershed Beef Breeder Hi-Mag).
> 
> I prefer the Onyx over the second Southern States. (Traditions Weathershed 2:1 Beef)
> All three are good minerals.


Oh one more thing sorry ! Do you know if I need to add ammonium chloride to any of these three


----------



## mariarose

Yes, to the Onyx. I no longer have tags for the other 2.


----------



## mariarose

Remember, you have Sweetlix MeatMaker on the way to you, @B.yusko. So you do have time to keep doing research on where to find what.


----------



## mariarose

To continue to share my quest for increasing my zinc without giving everyone daily attention... My goat mineral, the Supreme Goat Mineral from Tennessee Farm Co-op, has a sister formulation for sheep. This mineral has no copper, because it is for sheep, but it does have almost everything else, and the ingredients are still lovely.
I thought about mixing the 2, but that would cut the copper level in half and I did not want to cut it at all, just increase my zinc. So I hit on a bit of a compromise. I got a bag of each, Goat and Sheep, and set them out next to one another. The goats can choose the one if they need the copper, and the other if they just feel the need to get more zinc.

So far, they are both being eaten... About equally, I'd say.
I'll let y'all know what happens.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> To continue to share my quest for increasing my zinc without giving everyone daily attention... My goat mineral, the Supreme Goat Mineral from Tennessee Farm Co-op, has a sister formulation for sheep. This mineral has no copper, because it is for sheep, but it does have almost everything else, and the ingredients are still lovely.
> I thought about mixing the 2, but that would cut the copper level in half and I did not want to cut it at all, just increase my zinc. So I hit on a bit of a compromise. I got a bag of each, Goat and Sheep, and set them out next to one another. The goats can choose the one if they need the copper, and the other if they just feel the need to get more zinc.
> 
> So far, they are both being eaten... About equally, I'd say.
> I'll let y'all know what happens.


Really good idea. Did you stop the replamin plus?


----------



## wifeof1

Brilliant


----------



## mariarose

Dwarf Dad said:


> Really good idea. Did you stop the replamin plus?


I don't use the Replamin as a regular supplement. I do have it on hand for when my goats need something extra, especially SELENIUM!!! ARGH! My quest has always been for free choice minerals that will supply what they need, not something I have to individually give them. So... We shall see!


----------



## B.yusko

@mariarose are there any preferred minerals at rural king? Even with the list you gave me a lot of those feed stores are shut down or don't order unless they have a literal tons to order so they refuse, I've called so many..that's for the southern states and the cargills  so dumb.. to even get the wind and rain from tractor supply all my local stores don't have it and won't order it, I canceled my order for the sweetlix since I knew there was other options and they had a long shipping wait due to restock, if anything I'll re-order theirs or drive over an hour to another tractor supply but finding something local was preferred


----------



## B.yusko

mariarose said:


> I long, yearn even, to find/try this mineral
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because KY is held together with fescue.
> 
> If anyone could help me find it, or let me pay them to send me a bag (with tag, please) to try, I would be so eternally grateful. Also, I'm still stymied in my quest to find the Rowe Premix (mentioned previously in this thread) Same yearning. If any could help, I'll love ya forever (or until you diss my goats!)


I might be able to order this one actually from my feed store, is it better then wind and rain all seasons?


----------



## mariarose

B.yusko said:


> I might be able to order this one actually from my feed store, is it better then wind and rain all seasons?


I have no idea. I've never seen the tag (that's why the tag was included in the request.)

If you end up buying it, would you be willing to post the tag on here?

I don't really know of any minerals that would interest you at Rural King and I don't have one near.

This may be the time to start calling the corporations and asking if they will ship mixed or partial pallets, and go into the stores armed with that information. You can also start finding out what it would take for YOU to become a dealer, and be THE mineral hook up in your area...


----------



## B.yusko

mariarose said:


> I have no idea. I've never seen the tag (that's why the tag was included in the request.)
> 
> If you end up buying it, would you be willing to post the tag on here?
> 
> I don't really know of any minerals that would interest you at Rural King and I don't have one near.
> 
> This may be the time to start calling the corporations and asking if they will ship mixed or partial pallets, and go into the stores armed with that information. You can also start finding out what it would take for YOU to become a dealer, and be THE mineral hook up in your area...


Thanks for the advice!

I got the all season for now, if I am able and do get the other in the future I will post the specs !


----------



## mariarose

B.yusko said:


> I got the all season for now,


Oh I'm so happy you found some!!!


----------



## Dawg1419

mariarose said:


> Oh I'm so happy you found some!!!


Can you list all minerals you recommend? From best to what you recommend. Then at the bottom what to stay away from and can some admin make this a sticky?


----------



## mariarose

Dawg1419 said:


> Can you list all minerals you recommend?


Oh, Dawg, I wish I could, but I can't because goat needs vary according to location SO MUCH!!! And that is exactly why this thread would not work as a sticky (as thrilled as that would make me since this is my thread!!!)

Since you are in Georgia, I have hopes you can find my personal favourite, the Supreme Goat Mineral.

http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73

It is regional, but several owners have been able to find it in GA. Yes, I know you have a large State, been through there several times in my life. But give them a call and find out to whom they can ship it? I was driving an hour and a half before. I called them, and found out I could get it shipped to only 10 miles away if they'd only order it. I called my local place and said, "I want to order this mineral and they said you can get it. " And they said, "Why sure, Maria. How many bags do you think you'd like every month?" And that was that.

Nice ingredients, Nice mineral levels, Nice company. So...

If you can't get that, come back and talk to us and we'll see what we can find for you.

This thread may not be a sticky, but as long as people are interested, it'll be active. I won't leave it be.


----------



## mariarose

@Dawg1419 at the very, very, very bottom of my list is this product. Honestly, I don't know why they even call it a mineral mix.








Just... No... Not good for cattle, not good for goats, not even good for sheep. I don't know what it is filled with, but it isn't minerals.


----------



## Dawg1419

mariarose said:


> Oh, Dawg, I wish I could, but I can't because goat needs vary according to location SO MUCH!!! And that is exactly why this thread would not work as a sticky (as thrilled as that would make me since this is my thread!!!)
> 
> Since you are in Georgia, I have hopes you can find my personal favourite, the Supreme Goat Mineral.
> 
> http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73
> 
> It is regional, but several owners have been able to find it in GA. Yes, I know you have a large State, been through there several times in my life. But give them a call and find out to whom they can ship it? I was driving an hour and a half before. I called them, and found out I could get it shipped to only 10 miles away if they'd only order it. I called my local place and said, "I want to order this mineral and they said you can get it. " And they said, "Why sure, Maria. How many bags do you think you'd like every month?" And that was that.
> 
> Nice ingredients, Nice mineral levels, Nice company. So...
> 
> If you can't get that, come back and talk to us and we'll see what we can find for you.
> 
> This thread may not be a sticky, but as long as people are interested, it'll be active. I won't leave it be.


Thank you mineral queen :heehee:


----------



## Dawg1419

This is what I bought before seeing this thread. I just got my pigmys last Saturday


----------



## mariarose

I got it. I used to be a TSC sales associate. We were trained to guide people away from their "economy" Dumor brand toward their "upscale" Producer's Pride brand. 

Do yourself a favour and compare what you bought, to the GA and Ingredients of what I suggested to you (on the link I gave you already). Just compare those numbers and ingredients...

And if you want to stick with Producer's Pride, I won't say a word ag'in' it. I promise.

If you do want to change, and can't find the Supreme, let me know and I'll try to help you find something else, such as the ever Popular Purina Wind and Rain, Storm.


----------



## Jessica84

Up date again on the meat maker, also possibly a question. 
So I have had time to actually breath and not run around trying to keep things from flooding or have kids flying out of my ears lol and got to sit down today, while waiting for a doe to kid, anyways so I was sitting out with all the goats and playing with the kids. I have only ever had 1 doe in all my years have the balding hair around the eyes, but she was also off feed with a rumen shut down and pregnancy toxemia. But now I counted 5 kids (out of 45) with balding around the eyes. So to make sure this is zinc deficiency correct?
So if it is maybe it wasn’t even the selenium the does were after with the meat maker but the zinc? But you would think with as much as they consumed that they wouldn’t have a deficiency. So the question: I know some minerals when they actually consume too much it mimics deficiency. Is this true with zinc? If not and the kids truly do have zinc deficiency I will not be buying the meat maker again. Nothing else has changed this year other then I put the meat maker minerals out and instead of straight selenium salt it was selenium and zinc. Same feed from my parents off the same land. They didn’t add or take away anything as they grew it. No of the animals are showing signs and actually neither are the does. So I’m a little baffled over it.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

Over my head. Did you have a really wet year, like most of us?


----------



## odieclark

I would like to know more about zinc deficiency as well


----------



## Jessica84

Well it is now but it only started right when I started kidding. We didn’t rain much before that, maybe a inch. But yes in the last 2 weeks we have had a ton of rain in huge waves


----------



## odieclark

We just have snow, freezing rain, wind chills below zero


----------



## mariarose

I can find no place that says that balding eyes are a sign of zinc toxicity.

Mites can show up around the eyes, and also a copper deficiency. But by the time a copper deficiency hits the eye area you've had a real problem for a long time. So I doubt that is it.

Really high calcium in the diet can cause a zinc deficiency. High iron can too, I believe, and Jill has said that the iron in the MeatMaker is a form that the body can't ignore, like it can ignore the iron in the Purina...

It's only the kids, none of the adults?

What is the skin like where it is balding?

I'm having a real mite problem with my weather keeping everyone undercover.

I'm puzzled, because this almost certainly has to do with the mineral or the weather, but why only kids???

I'll keep searching, @Jessica84


----------



## goathiker

It's because the kids have no body stores yet and are using almost everything they take in to grow. 
I would put them back on the Purina I think.


----------



## mariarose

That makes sense. So do you think it a zinc deficiency then, @goathiker?


----------



## goathiker

No, it's copper being blocked.


----------



## mariarose

Thank you @goathiker . Copper being blocked by that form of iron, I presume? Or copper being blocked by the extra zinc? Or something else I've missed?


----------



## goathiker

From the calcium and/or the extra zinc. 
Copper to zinc should be 1 to 3.


----------



## mariarose

@Jessica84 Jill has found your answer, I think. Going back on the Purina should fix this.
Do you have any copper you can give your kids?


----------



## Dwarf Dad

Jessica84 said:


> Well it is now but it only started right when I started kidding. We didn't rain much before that, maybe a inch. But yes in the last 2 weeks we have had a ton of rain in huge waves


I was just asking because of the article on herd management at onion creek ranch that discussed an extremely wet year that leeched all of the minerals away from the plants.


----------



## Jessica84

Perfect! Thank you! I will stick with the Purina wind and rain. I was hoping that it would be a better mineral but I guess I’m going to remember if it’s not broke don’t fix it. 
I do have little copper boluses for the kids, but they are only a few weeks old so will have to wait till their rumen starts to work. They think the hay and grass is for playing not eating right now. I do have to send my husband to town one of these days to get me some calf chains since I lost my mind and can’t find them. So I will see if they have something close to that replamin gel (i think that’s what it’s called) or see if I can get.....oh I can’t think of what it’s called, it’s blue stuff and it’s minerals in a shot. I need to drink more coffee and think of what it’s called. 
Dawrfdad I had asked my mom if maybe they watered the fields of hay more then usual and she reminded me it was actually less then usual, family drama with my brother and his girlfriend, need I say more lol


----------



## Jessica84

Oh! So should I also take away the zinc and selenium salt?


----------



## mariarose

I'd guess no... that the salt isn't overloading them because of the high salt content.


----------



## goathiker

I would, they can't get their selenium without copper blocking zinc.


----------



## toth boer goats

Yep.


----------



## odieclark

Oh my gosh here we go again!?! 

We are just waiting for our water tests to come back,...waiting waiting waiting waiting


----------



## B.yusko

mariarose said:


> @Dawg1419 at the very, very, very bottom of my list is this product. Honestly, I don't know why they even call it a mineral mix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just... No... Not good for cattle, not good for goats, not even good for sheep. I don't know what it is filled with, but it isn't minerals.


I'm curious, is the tag for this? I've just been recommend to me but I remember seeing this post of you saying you don't recommend!!


----------



## mariarose

B.yusko said:


> View attachment 146317
> 
> 
> I'm curious, is the tag for this? I've just been recommend to me but I remember seeing this post of you saying you don't recommend!!


No, that tag is for a different Nutrena. I don't know which one. The tag for the one I pointed out has a copper level of 176 ppm


----------



## goathiker

The blue/ yellow bag looks like the high magnesium for grass tetany prevention. 
Magnesium increases copper metabolism and can cause copper poisoning in the presence of too much.


----------



## mariarose

@Damfino I've been unable to locate the Redmond Copper Fortified Block you've mentioned, but I did find this one. I think there must be a mistake on the listed GA, but in your opinion, is this something that can be recommended to certain people?
http://www.ranch-way.com/products/m...-ranch-o-min-stress-breeder-performance-12-12


----------



## Damfino

What's the "GA"? 

I do like Ranch-Way minerals. I've fed them for about two years now and they are the best minerals I've tried so far. I have not tried one of their copper blocks though. The company is based in Colorado, but I have the dickens of a time trying to get their products down here in the southern part of the state. Also, the company changed hands last year and I've heard rumors that quality has suffered. In fact, the last couple bags of loose minerals I bought have a lot of grains of one certain mineral (not sure which one) that are too large for the goats to easily consume. Hopefully the company can get back in the groove and correct these issues.


----------



## mariarose

@Damfino 
GA is my abbreviation for Guaranteed Analysis. I said there is a mistake because the text said the Calcium and the Phosphorus are 1:1 but in the GA clearly were not. That made me suspicious of all of it.

I've recommended the company a couple of times, just based on their location and ingredients, you understand. I do hope they'll pull themselves together, for everyone's sake. How far must you travel to get the minerals, and which formulation is your choice? Do you give the Organic line or the regular line?


----------



## Damfino

Yeah, the original formula was 1:1 and then they changed it, but I don't think they ever updated their packaging. I think it was one of those things where the formula changed shortly before the company was bought out, so I'm guessing the packaging update got lost in the shuffle. 

I used to order my Ranch-Way minerals (the regular kind, not the organic) at at Sweeny Feed (a local feed mill), but Sweeny went under about six month ago so now I'm not sure where to go. It was hard to get the goat mineral even from Sweeny. They carried it in big bags back when I first started breeding goats, but at some point shortly after I started buying the minerals, other goat people stopped ordering them so Sweeny stopped carrying them. I had to special order them and they always took an age and a half to come in. Now that Sweeny is closed I can't get them anywhere. I tried switching to a Purina Wind & Rain mix but my goats don't like those nearly as much as the Ranch-Way.


----------



## odieclark

Funny how they are so picky about showing which minerals they like! Dang they went out of business


----------



## mariarose

A place that will take forever to get the products they are dealers of is bound to go out of business... Sorry that happened to you @Damfino

Anyone else interested in this excellent mineral line from Hubbard Feeds, here is a dealer locator. And if that doesn't work, the toll free telephone number is at the bottom of the page. Give them a call and start letting them know where you are and that you want their products.
http://www.ranch-way.com/dealers
Some of their goat products
http://www.ranch-way.com/products/goat-feed


----------



## odieclark

Any clue as to if the sheep feed or minerals are any good?


----------



## mariarose

The minerals look good enough to at least try. Do you know if you can find any of them?


----------



## odieclark

mariarose said:


> The minerals look good enough to at least try. Do you know if you can find any of them?


I apologize for not finding the recommendation upon looking back, but is this the goat mineral?

http://www.ranch-way.com/products/goat-feed/ranch-way-ranch-o-min-11-goat-mineral

How does this compare to
Sweetlix Meat Maker or a Cargill's Right Now Onyx?


----------



## odieclark

Tell me what you think of this result we got back from our water test! So, we seem to need to copper bolus our goats 3-4 times a year, offer free choice minerals, grain with an added coccidostat, hay-various crops of hay and quality, Replamin plus about once a month. 
Any of these a pro or co to our mineral absorption or consumption? Our goats still seem mineral deficient! Our sheep do as well and our beef cattle have the selenium deficits as well


----------



## mariarose

odieclark said:


> but is this the goat mineral?
> 
> http://www.ranch-way.com/products/goat-feed/ranch-way-ranch-o-min-11-goat-mineral


Yes, that is the mineral that @Damfino called the best she's had.


odieclark said:


> How does this compare to
> Sweetlix Meat Maker or a Cargill's Right Now Onyx?


The listed ingredients seem awesome. The Onyx and MeatMaker are both higher in Copper. The MeatMaker is much higher in cobalt. That's all that I can lay my finger on at the moment


odieclark said:


> Tell me what you think of this result we got back from our water test!


With the water that hard and with those levels of inorganic minerals, I'm not surprised your lifestock are having problems regulating their mineral levels...
Are you able to move toward rainwater catchment, for even part of the year?


odieclark said:


> grain with an added coccidostat,


What about the water indicates you need a cocci poison in your grain? I'm sorry, you threw me with that one.


odieclark said:


> Our goats still seem mineral deficient! Our sheep do as well and our beef cattle have the selenium deficits as well


You have so many animals habitually having mineral problems, it may be time to move to this system for everyone.
https://www.abcplus.biz/Site_Free_Choice_Minerals Get a kit with extra selenium, buy some loose salt locally, put it out for everyone and let them eat what they need...
Here is their page for the kits
https://www.abcplus.biz/Categories.aspx?Id=Organic_Beef_Organic_Kits
Here is their page for the selenium you'll have to buy separately
https://www.abcplus.biz/Organic_Beef_Minerals_SE_Top_Choice_Mix


----------



## odieclark

I am confused 
So starting with our water test results, just what is working against the animals being able to absorb their minerals? The 0.222 of iron? What else? Is there something in the water that is stripping them of minerals?


----------



## mariarose

It (the extremely hard water) isn't stripping them of minerals, but preventing the animals from using what minerals that are antagonistic to the minerals in the water. Not only can they not use them, they can't rebuild the stores being used up. Further, the minerals in the water are not good forms of those minerals, because animals are meant to eat our minerals, not drink them. So they can't use the more available forms from plants because they are blocked, and can't use the forms that are constantly being consumed in the water, because of the form.

Using rainwater, at least part of the time, can make many mineral issues go away.


----------



## odieclark

mariarose said:


> It (the extremely hard water) isn't stripping them of minerals, but preventing the animals from using what minerals that are antagonistic to the minerals in the water. Not only can they not use them, they can't rebuild the stores being used up. Further, the minerals in the water are not good forms of those minerals, because animals are meant to eat our minerals, not drink them. So they can't use the more available forms from plants because they are blocked, and can't use the forms that are constantly being consumed in the water, because of the form.
> 
> Using rainwater, at least part of the time, can make many mineral issues go away.


So, we could likely collect rain water, or better yet just got like 15" of snow yesterday,... but if this was your water and your goats what would you do ? I feel lost again


----------



## NyGoatMom

So I was perusing this thread...and it makes me question.... please read this article and pay attention to the chart on minerals.
https://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/goat/pubs/goats-and-their-nutrition.pdf

And here is the amount in Replamin Plus gel... if I am figuring correctly, Replamin is super duper pumped. The first number after each mineral is the ppm, the second is mg/IU for macrominerals. So, is this too much?
Hoping @goathiker can make sense of this as I know you are amazing at this kind of thing  I still use the feed mixture you worked for me years back!
Copy and paste:
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:

Each 5 cc serving contains not less than:

Magnesium, min

9,500 ppm 61.8 mg

Potassium, min

9,500 ppm 61.8 mg

Cobalt, min

400 ppm 2.6 mg

Copper, min

5,200 ppm 33.8 mg

Manganese, min

2,500ppm 16.3 mg

Selenium, min

60 ppm 0.39 mg

Zinc, min

6,050 ppm 39.3 mg

Vitamin A, min

6,045,000 IU/lb 86,637 IU

Vitamin D3, min

151,200 IU/lb 2,167 IU

Vitamin E, min

22,600 IU/lb 324 IU

Pyriodoxine (Vitamin B6) min

255 mg/lb 3.7 IU

Vitamin B12, min

6,800 mcg/lb 97.4 mcg

Biotin, min

22.7 mg/lb 0.3 mg

Choline, min

1,875 mg/lb 26.8 mg

Pantothenic Acid, min

2,200 mg/lb 31.5 mg

Folic Acid, min

19.5 mg/lb 0.3 mg

Niacin, min

1,745 mg/lb 25.0 mg

Riboflavin, min

675 mg/lb 9.7 mg

Thiamine, min

4,540 mg/lb 65.0 mg

INGREDIENTS:

Soybean Oil, d-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (source of Vitamin E), Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate*, Potassium Amino Acid Complex., Copper Amino Acid Chelate*, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate*, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate., Vitamin A Acetate, Silicon Dioxide, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Trichoderma viride Fermentation Product, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Choline Bitartrate, Glycerin, Corn Starch, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin Supplement, Polysorbate 80, Niacinamide, Sodium Selenite, Lecithin, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Cobalt Sulfate, Guar Gum, Maltodextrin, Sucrose, D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of Vitamin D3), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Dextrose, and Folic Acid.
*Directions For Use*
*Use as a supplemental source of minerals and vitamins during periods of stress (such as weaning, moving and castration) during which feed intakes may be decreased and during which supplemental nutrients may be of benefit or as a source of supplemental nutrition for animals which may have mineral and/or vitamin deficiencies.*


----------



## NyGoatMom

odieclark said:


> So, we could likely collect rain water, or better yet just got like 15" of snow yesterday,... but if this was your water and your goats what would you do ? I feel lost again


Can you buy a filter for your water source?


----------



## odieclark

NyGoatMom said:


> Can you buy a filter for your water source?


What kind of a filter?


----------



## NyGoatMom

Anything that can filter out the unwanted minerals....I'm no expert on this but was wondering if filtering would help.


----------



## goathiker

Be back with you Steph, water report first. 

First to establish ferrous verses non-ferrous iron..

Is water tinted red? Does water stain tubs, sinks, toilet red? If left is an cup overnight does red sludge settle to the bottom? 

Is water completely clear and show no signs of iron? 

Does water smell of sulphur? 

Does plumbing build up with chalky scale?


----------



## odieclark

A filter-will have to see about that, maybe?!

I know what you are saying about a build up as we have had that in some of the places we have lived in our toilets and/or if we had a dripping sink! Ugh. Copper colored staining for sure! But with this water, I am not so sure.

It doesn’t smell like sulphuric and I haven’t noticed it to be chunky or having excess particles settle,.. will have to do the water in a cup test,..

It does seem clear and not discolored ,..


----------



## wifeof1

What's it mean if water tinted red. Stains in toilets?


----------



## toth boer goats

All great advice.

We have a lot of iron in our water, so we broke down and bought a expensive Culligan water treatment system. 
We get the salt for it which fights iron.

Collecting rain water helps too.


----------



## goathiker

wifeof1 said:


> What's it mean if water tinted red. Stains in toilets?


It means that it is naturally occurring iron oxide from the ground.

Water that is clean and seemingly without iron is usually old plumbing that is breaking down.

You should filter out all that chlorine anyway, it's not helpful even if not truly poisonous.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

NyGoatMom said:


> So I was perusing this thread...and it makes me question.... please read this article and pay attention to the chart on minerals.
> https://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/goat/pubs/goats-and-their-nutrition.pdf
> 
> And here is the amount in Replamin Plus gel... if I am figuring correctly, Replamin is super duper pumped. The first number after each mineral is the ppm, the second is mg/IU for macrominerals. So, is this too much?
> Hoping @goathiker can make sense of this as I know you are amazing at this kind of thing  I still use the feed mixture you worked for me years back!
> Copy and paste:
> GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
> 
> Each 5 cc serving contains not less than:
> 
> Magnesium, min
> 
> 9,500 ppm 61.8 mg
> 
> Potassium, min
> 
> 9,500 ppm 61.8 mg
> 
> Cobalt, min
> 
> 400 ppm 2.6 mg
> 
> Copper, min
> 
> 5,200 ppm 33.8 mg
> 
> Manganese, min
> 
> 2,500ppm 16.3 mg
> 
> Selenium, min
> 
> 60 ppm 0.39 mg
> 
> Zinc, min
> 
> 6,050 ppm 39.3 mg
> 
> Vitamin A, min
> 
> 6,045,000 IU/lb 86,637 IU
> 
> Vitamin D3, min
> 
> 151,200 IU/lb 2,167 IU
> 
> Vitamin E, min
> 
> 22,600 IU/lb 324 IU
> 
> Pyriodoxine (Vitamin B6) min
> 
> 255 mg/lb 3.7 IU
> 
> Vitamin B12, min
> 
> 6,800 mcg/lb 97.4 mcg
> 
> Biotin, min
> 
> 22.7 mg/lb 0.3 mg
> 
> Choline, min
> 
> 1,875 mg/lb 26.8 mg
> 
> Pantothenic Acid, min
> 
> 2,200 mg/lb 31.5 mg
> 
> Folic Acid, min
> 
> 19.5 mg/lb 0.3 mg
> 
> Niacin, min
> 
> 1,745 mg/lb 25.0 mg
> 
> Riboflavin, min
> 
> 675 mg/lb 9.7 mg
> 
> Thiamine, min
> 
> 4,540 mg/lb 65.0 mg
> 
> INGREDIENTS:
> 
> Soybean Oil, d-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate (source of Vitamin E), Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate*, Potassium Amino Acid Complex., Copper Amino Acid Chelate*, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate*, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate., Vitamin A Acetate, Silicon Dioxide, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Dried Trichoderma viride Fermentation Product, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Choline Bitartrate, Glycerin, Corn Starch, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin Supplement, Polysorbate 80, Niacinamide, Sodium Selenite, Lecithin, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Cobalt Sulfate, Guar Gum, Maltodextrin, Sucrose, D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of Vitamin D3), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Dextrose, and Folic Acid.
> *Directions For Use*
> *Use as a supplemental source of minerals and vitamins during periods of stress (such as weaning, moving and castration) during which feed intakes may be decreased and during which supplemental nutrients may be of benefit or as a source of supplemental nutrition for animals which may have mineral and/or vitamin deficiencies.*


Ever since you posted this, I started questioning ingredients too.
What I came up with helped me to see how much those ppm figures turn out to be:
5200 ppm of 5 cc dose =33.8mg
520parts per 100,000 of 5cc dose = 33.8mg
52 parts per 10,000 of 5cc dose = 33.8mg
5.2 parts per 1000 of 5cc dose =33.8mg
.52 parts per 100 or 0.52% of 5cc dose =33.8mg
Now I can look at all ppm as a percentage of total, in any measured amount of the product. Just easier for me.
Example:Cargil Right Now Onyx
2500 ppm copper = .25% copper
So if your 12 goats are eating 3 oz. of the mineral and 24 lbs of feed with 10 ppm or .0010% copper = xppm or .xxxx% copper
It is easier to get down to decimal scale so we have to convert to metrics.
(3 oz = 85048.5693mg) x .25% = 212.62142325mg of copper in minerals
(24 lbs. of feed = 10886216.88mg of feed) x .0010% = 108.8621688mg of copper in feed.
Copper in feed and minerals = 321.48359205mg /
Total mg of feed and minerals = 10971265.4493 =10.9712654493 grams (I had to get decimal moved for calculator to accept it) = .0293% or 293 ppm for todays copper intake per goat hypothetically if goat only ate its 2 lb share of feed and its 1/4 oz of mineral.
My brain hurts. Someone check for me?


----------



## odieclark

You all fried my brain! . I am totally lost!!!

This is what I know:

Goats we feed them well, good hay and a grain mix daily
Free choice minerals -sweetlix
Replamin plus at least monthly
Copper Bolus 3-4 times a year
Bo-se yearly
CDT yearly

Sheep -similar with feed/appropriate for sheep
Sheep minerals
Bo se 
CDT
Shearing annually

Beef cattle
Hay
Free choice minerals
Lick tub for cattle

Our water-from test above

That's what I know and that's what we do.

Our results-
More minerals needed and the goats show us the way on this, due to their health and coat appearances, tails that split, and how they consume the minerals! The sheep and cows are consuming minerals heavily as well, so certainly we deal with deficiencies because of our soil deficits and water antagonists, but I have no idea how to figure this out and the calculations you did BLOW my Mind!!!

WOW



Dwarf Dad said:


> Ever since you posted this, I started questioning ingredients too.
> What I came up with helped me to see how much those ppm figures turn out to be:
> 5200 ppm of 5 cc dose =33.8mg
> 520parts per 100,000 of 5cc dose = 33.8mg
> 52 parts per 10,000 of 5cc dose = 33.8mg
> 5.2 parts per 1000 of 5cc dose =33.8mg
> .52 parts per 100 or 0.52% of 5cc dose =33.8mg
> Now I can look at all ppm as a percentage of total, in any measured amount of the product. Just easier for me.
> Example:Cargil Right Now Onyx
> 2500 ppm copper = .25% copper
> So if your 12 goats are eating 3 oz. of the mineral and 24 lbs of feed with 10 ppm or .0010% copper = xppm or .xxxx% copper
> It is easier to get down to decimal scale so we have to convert to metrics.
> (3 oz = 85048.5693mg) x .25% = 212.62142325mg of copper in minerals
> (24 lbs. of feed = 10886216.88mg of feed) x .0010% = 108.8621688mg of copper in feed.
> Copper in feed and minerals = 321.48359205mg /
> Total mg of feed and minerals = 10971265.4493 =10.9712654493 grams (I had to get decimal moved for calculator to accept it) = .0293% or 293 ppm for todays copper intake per goat hypothetically if goat only ate its 2 lb share of feed and its 1/4 oz of mineral.
> My brain hurts. Someone check for me?


----------



## odieclark

You can see the goats are good, and eager to go outside even in snow they can barely walk through!!!

But look closely, on the White doe as you can zoom and see her fish tail-which wejust gave copper a week ago to all


----------



## mariarose

@odieclark There are 3 things I would recommend. Right now to consider the cafeteria style minerals I last talked about, and later on when you have nice weather to capture rain water into a cistern from which to water them later. Lastly to put this information into all your breeding decisions. The animals (goats, sheep, and bovines, all three) who cope with your particular mineral interactions on your property, with your water, should be the ones you are breeding together.

I think you've been wonderful trying to fight all these interactions all this time.  You've been great.

I do encourage you to consider the cafeteria minerals. You are the first person I've said this to.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

odieclark said:


> You all fried my brain! . I am totally lost!!!
> 
> This is what I know:
> 
> Goats we feed them well, good hay and a grain mix daily
> Free choice minerals -sweetlix
> Replamin plus at least monthly
> Copper Bolus 3-4 times a year
> Bo-se yearly
> CDT yearly
> 
> Sheep -similar with feed/appropriate for sheep
> Sheep minerals
> Bo se
> CDT
> Shearing annually
> 
> Beef cattle
> Hay
> Free choice minerals
> Lick tub for cattle
> 
> Our water-from test above
> 
> That's what I know and that's what we do.
> 
> Our results-
> More minerals needed and the goats show us the way on this, due to their health and coat appearances, tails that split, and how they consume the minerals! The sheep and cows are consuming minerals heavily as well, so certainly we deal with deficiencies because of our soil deficits and water antagonists, but I have no idea how to figure this out and the calculations you did BLOW my Mind!!!
> 
> WOW


My brain was more scrambled than fried after piecing all of that. I got lost in my thoughts a few times.lol Must be the way a dog feels chasing his tail.
I was actually trying to illustrate to @NyGoatMom that the minerals in the Replamin are condensed, yet if figured in with today's or this week's feed it is not that much at all, overall. I just got lost.


----------



## odieclark

Dwarf Dad said:


> My brain was more scrambled than fried after piecing all of that. I got lost in my thoughts a few times.lol Must be the way a dog feels chasing his tail.
> I was actually trying to illustrate to @NyGoatMom that the minerals in the Replamin are condensed, yet if figured in with today's or this week's feed it is not that much at all, overall. I just got lost.


That's good to hear I'm not the only one lost! Lol
Just want them to look better! Also, in evaluating our sheep wanting them to lamb better! Each lambing want to see continued improvements on and I believe the feed and minerals are the biggest part of that improvement.

The cattle also, need to improve for them as well, as they grow very slow.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

odieclark said:


> That's good to hear I'm not the only one lost! Lol
> Just want them to look better! Also, in evaluating our sheep wanting them to lamb better! Each lambing want to see continued improvements on and I believe the feed and minerals are the biggest part of that improvement.
> 
> The cattle also, need to improve for them as well, as they grow very slow.


Maybe the pasturage would be easier to supplement or change the silage growing there to pull needed nutrients from the soil. Spoken by someone who does not know anything about either.lol


----------



## NyGoatMom

Dwarf Dad said:


> Ever since you posted this, I started questioning ingredients too.
> What I came up with helped me to see how much those ppm figures turn out to be:
> 5200 ppm of 5 cc dose =33.8mg
> 520parts per 100,000 of 5cc dose = 33.8mg
> 52 parts per 10,000 of 5cc dose = 33.8mg
> 5.2 parts per 1000 of 5cc dose =33.8mg
> .52 parts per 100 or 0.52% of 5cc dose =33.8mg
> Now I can look at all ppm as a percentage of total, in any measured amount of the product. Just easier for me.
> Example:Cargil Right Now Onyx
> 2500 ppm copper = .25% copper
> So if your 12 goats are eating 3 oz. of the mineral and 24 lbs of feed with 10 ppm or .0010% copper = xppm or .xxxx% copper
> It is easier to get down to decimal scale so we have to convert to metrics.
> (3 oz = 85048.5693mg) x .25% = 212.62142325mg of copper in minerals
> (24 lbs. of feed = 10886216.88mg of feed) x .0010% = 108.8621688mg of copper in feed.
> Copper in feed and minerals = 321.48359205mg /
> Total mg of feed and minerals = 10971265.4493 =10.9712654493 grams (I had to get decimal moved for calculator to accept it) = .0293% or 293 ppm for todays copper intake per goat hypothetically if goat only ate its 2 lb share of feed and its 1/4 oz of mineral.
> My brain hurts. Someone check for me?


lol! I wish I could check for you! That's my problem, I don't know how to convert the numbers. That being said I see your logic! So basically, how often should this actually be given? (saying there is the same amount in the feed as quoted)


----------



## NyGoatMom

@odieclark She is too cute <3


----------



## wifeof1

goathiker said:


> It means that it is naturally occurring iron oxide from the ground.
> 
> Water that is clean and seemingly without iron is usually old plumbing that is breaking down.
> 
> You should filter out all that chlorine anyway, it's not helpful even if not truly poisonous.


So it's not in the well water. It's in the journey to the home? Or in the home? Correct?


----------



## odieclark

wifeof1 said:


> So it's not in the well water. It's in the journey to the home? Or in the home? Correct?


Not sure what this means? Geez I feel as if I know less and less all the time!

And Dwarf dad
The pasture! Likely the pasture is part of the problem! As anything grown on our soil is deficient selenium and many of the nutrients. Plus our land is basically depleted and being that we are basically organic,... very complicated.

But even when we buy hay for our animals the neighbors have similar issues.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

Yes, I understand the depletion. I wonder how all of our soils could get back to the way they were before row crops? The bison are gone.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

NyGoatMom said:


> lol! I wish I could check for you! That's my problem, I don't know how to convert the numbers. That being said I see your logic! So basically, how often should this actually be given? (saying there is the same amount in the feed as quoted)


I am going by doses for goats, 5cc per treatment. I have minis so I dosed 3 times every other day, instead of 5 days in a row for full size goats. Now, I will start Sunday, will give each 5cc every other week, instead of weekly for full size goats.


----------



## goathiker

It doesn't matter with the Replamin, it's already chelated minerals. What they can't use they poop out to nourish the ground. 
There are no free radicals, no vying for matching component vitamin pairings, what the body can't use it rejects.


----------



## NyGoatMom

goathiker said:


> It doesn't matter with the Replamin, it's already chelated minerals. What they can't use they poop out to nourish the ground.
> There are no free radicals, no vying for matching component vitamin pairings, what the body can't use it rejects.


That is amazing to know! Thanks so much Jill!


----------



## Dwarf Dad

goathiker said:


> It doesn't matter with the Replamin, it's already chelated minerals. What they can't use they poop out to nourish the ground.
> There are no free radicals, no vying for matching component vitamin pairings, what the body can't use it rejects.


Yes, thank you.


----------



## Dawg1419

So I bought Pygmy goats(2) and they had no color in eyelid. I don’t know if the previous owner gave cdt shots. I do know he had a wormer block out for 20 or so goats. So I have given a cdt shot. Zimectrin gold treatment and one 5cc dose of replamin plus. Should I give the replamin plus more often than once a week? The color is changing in the eye lid to include a small amount of pink now 2 weeks after the zimectrin gold treatment. All they eat is brush in the woods, Bermuda hay and wheat straw hay. I also feed them some sweet goat feed. My main question is should I be giving the Replamin plus more often or monthly?


----------



## mariarose

Dawg1419 said:


> My main question is should I be giving the Replamin plus more often or monthly?


The way most goat owners use Replamin is to give daily 5 ml for 5 days, then 5ml one time per week. And to still offer a loose mineral mix. This is for standard sized goats. Dwarves and minis would get half of that. And you have given only 1 dose altogether, yes?

Replamin is not a bad thing to offer, to help heal. But it won't take the place of loose minerals. What loose mineral mix are your goats being offered?

Parasites are killers, and we do need to deal with them. What parasites did your goats have, or do have still?

A deficiency of many minerals can be responsible for anemia (the white eyelids). It may not be parasites (probably is, but maybe not).

If you aren't giving a loose mineral mix, then although the Replamin can help some things, it can't help everything, and that is why I ask for more information.


----------



## Dawg1419

Ye


mariarose said:


> The way most goat owners use Replamin is to give daily 5 ml for 5 days, then 5ml one time per week. And to still offer a loose mineral mix. This is for standard sized goats. Dwarves and minis would get half of that. And you have given only 1 dose altogether, yes?
> 
> Replamin is not a bad thing to offer, to help heal. But it won't take the place of loose minerals. What loose mineral mix are your goats being offered?
> 
> Parasites are killers, and we do need to deal with them. What parasites did your goats have, or do have still?
> 
> A deficiency of many minerals can be responsible for anemia (the white eyelids). It may not be parasites (probably is, but maybe not).
> 
> If you aren't giving a loose mineral mix, then although the Replamin can help some things, it can't help everything, and that is why I ask for more information.


Yes one dose of 5cc so I could administer one 5cc every other day. For a week. The loose minerals is


----------



## mariarose

I'd give the Replamin Gel Plus every day for 5 days and then every week while on this mineral. You may need Zinpro while you are offering this mineral as well. You can buy as little as 1 lb of Zinpro 40 here
http://www.goatworld.com/store/
You also would benefit from a quality salt lick for them. Since you go to TSC already, consider this one https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/redmond-rock-all-natural-mineral-salt-7-lb


----------



## mariarose

To be more clear @Dawg1419 I'd give the full standard dose to your Pygmies while they are on that mineral, not the 1/2 dose.


----------



## Island Milker

Mariarose 
can i get your opinion on


----------



## mariarose

Island Milker said:


> can i get your opinion on


Yes.
I don't know the ingredients, so I can't say anything about them. The levels seem OK to me, considering I don't know what your area needs. For instance, I would need more copper and less iron on my farm, unless the copper was in a very bioavailable form and the iron wasn't...
The nutrient that I don't know what to make of is Fluorine. I don't know the safe level of fluorine for a goat. The only mineral mix I found for goats or cattle that listed it had a level of 600 ppm. I know that goat's milk has been reported as having more fluorine than cow's milk. I also know that in areas where there is aluminum smelting environmental fluorine levels can be too high for humans. And so far that is all I know.

The levels listed don't seem out of line, but the ingredients could make a huge difference.

I would consider getting an iodized cobalt salt block as a complement to this mineral mix. I know they are listed online as being available in Canadian TSC stores, but of course, I don't know if you have a TSC, and I don't know if your store would carry it. They are almost always blue.

Let us know if you have any other questions, OK?


----------



## Dlbinn

mariarose said:


> I don't know how many of you have a Stockdales nearby. My Stockdales is an hour and a quarter away That is where I get my favorite goat minerals (when I can!!!!) Here is my favorite, like you don't know by now! Yeah, this one http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73
> 
> However, I'm not here to tell you about this one, AGAIN! No! I'm here to tell you, that the last time I was there, finding my favourite mineral mix, I found this one as well. Sweetlix Meat Maker Minerals. ALSO Sweetlix Goat Maker Minerals. There have been sooooo many recommending thes formulas, I was excited to tell people that if you want it, and you have an available Stockdales, it is in the freaking system!!!! I love my Stockdales. TThey try so hard to please. I'm not sayin' you want this. BUT, if you DO want this, have not been able to find it, AND have a Stockdales nearby, stop and check if they'll order it for you. Mine will, If I know to order it.
> 
> Nevertheless, my Co-op brand Supreme Goat Mineral is stll my favorite. So I went home with that one!


I'm so interested in this mineral discussion! I feel like I'm struggling in this area. I try so hard to give my guys the best of everything, then I feel like I'm not doing them justice, ugh!! So in your opinion the "Wind and Rain"? minerals are good? Even though they are for cattle? Could you please educate me on why you feel this way? I'm ALWAYS wanting to learn more, and this is so interesting to me. I am struggling now-I have 4 ND goats. I have 2 that I am dealing with hair loss issues. One thing I read says "mites" one thing says "not enough minerals". I always have given them free choice Manna Pro, but the more I read, more and more people don't like that brand. My guys get grain 2x daily (in the winter-because I live in the frozen tundra). The grain is a mix of ADM goat feed, BOSS, oats and shredded beet pulp. They get a mix of alfalfa and grass hay. (I also have 2 alpacas-the goats love to sneak the alpaca grain and alpaca minerals when I'm not looking, lol). I have never given them copper bolus before, I do have it coming from Jeffers tomorrow so I will attempt that soon. I am open to ANY and ALL advice you have for me. I've had 2 of my guys for 2 years now, and the other 2 came to live with us this fall. They are all weathers. Thank you!!!!


----------



## mariarose

@Dlbinn welcome to this mineral discussion. It has drifted a bit since the beginning, but we've all tried to keep it on mineral mixes.

Do yourself a favour, and read through the whole thread. You may find a lot of your initial questions answered, and discover you have questions you haven't even thought about yet, and get back to us when you have read the whole thing.

When you say Tundra, are you in Canada? If so, I'll be giving a shout out to some Canadian members, because they'll have a special understanding of your needs and resources.

Purina Wind and Rain, Storm is a very good mineral, and it is relatively easy to find, which is always a plus.

Hair loss can be a number of things, such as mites, and deficiencies. How/where did the hairloss start, what does the skin look/feel like, what other symptoms do you notice that may/may not be related to it?


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## Dlbinn

Oh how my head is spinning! Who knew minerals were SO confusing!! When I say “tundra” I’m referring to Iowa. We have had the 2nd most amount of snow EVER this year! I live in very rural Iowa, so getting in the truck and “running” to the store doesn’t happen very often  I will attempt to upload photos of my 2 guys with hair loss right now. Murphy has lots of dandruff, hair loss around his eyes, top of nose and top of head. Murphy is itching himself-that’s the only symtom that’s unusual for him. Walter is more losing hair FAST-like shedding uncontrollably. Which is NOT good right now. It’s so cold! Walter doesn’t really have any other symptoms. He’s so calm and happy, great personality. Both have the same appetite (Murphy has ALOT of appetite-he’s a big boy, he always has been). Murphy just has so much dandruff! Skin looks normal-Murphy’s looks more dry than normal, but no cracks or anything.


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## mariarose

That really looks/sounds like mites to me (which can come along as an adjunct to a compromised immune system, which may or may not be related to out of whack minerals.

In this case, I'm glad to know you are in the US, because of the ease of buying that often comes with the territory.

Ivermection injectible given Subcutaneously (not orally) is good for mites/lice/ticks/etc. Or Ivermectin or Cydectin Pour-ons. There may be other pour-ons that work, but I've never used them, so I don't know what would be best for your area.

I'd go ahead and buy the Purina Wind and Rain, Storm, at least for right now, and start correcting the mineral issues (if any).

Posting those pictures and your story on your own thread will get you much more attention from parasite knowledgeable people. I can help you with that process if you need it.

But my best guess is mites. There are other things you'll have to do to ensure total eradication.

Your goats are adorable. We need to make them feel better soon.


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## Dlbinn

Ivermectin SQ- 1x/week for 3 weeks? That’s what I’ve been able to determine by the hours and hours of reading I’ve done so far. I will get the new minerals today. What else should I do? I use the “deep litter”? Method for the barn during the winter. When it doesn’t hurt my face to go outside I keep barn cleaned out. The barn has concrete floors-wood walls. I’m assuming I need to clean the barn-any suggestions on what to spray the floors/walls with? THANK YOU for your suggestions!!!!


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## mariarose

My best suggestion is to make a separate thread regarding this. I am NOT good with external parasites. I don't use the injectible, only the pour-on. I put the pour-on on them daily. It is blue coloured, and smells bad. 

Garlic and vitamin C tablets will help the immune systems too. A clove or 2 a day, per goat, and 500 to 1000 sized vitamin C pills

I use LOTS of barn lime, because there is no good way to clean the mud out and I have to keep the hay bales and other bedding in there to prevent them from living in a pond.

PLEASE make another thread (I'll help) because this thread won't get you the advice you need and I have a lot of ignorance in this area.


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## Dlbinn

Ok, I will do that. Newbie fail...Sorry


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## mariarose

Dlbinn said:


> Ok, I will do that. Newbie fail...Sorry


Not a fail at all. I'm not great at parasites, and this thread will only attract mineral attention. I want your boys to stop being tormented.

Let me know if you need help making that thread.

Nu-Stock can be extremely helpful to keep the skin supple.

Zinc Oxide as diaper rash ointment can help keep the skin supple and uncracked if you can't find the Nu-Stock.


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## Dlbinn

Thank you so much for ALL of your WONDERFUL advice! I have already got the new thread posted. I am so extremely grateful for this community! There are so many helpful, wonderful people!! Being an RN I use Zinc Oxide on my home care clients a lot, I never even thought about using it on my guys at home.


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## mariarose

We're here for you. @Dlbinn


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## Island Milker

mariarose said:


> Yes.
> I don't know the ingredients, so I can't say anything about them. The levels seem OK to me, considering I don't know what your area needs. For instance, I would need more copper and less iron on my farm, unless the copper was in a very bioavailable form and the iron wasn't...
> The nutrient that I don't know what to make of is Fluorine. I don't know the safe level of fluorine for a goat. The only mineral mix I found for goats or cattle that listed it had a level of 600 ppm. I know that goat's milk has been reported as having more fluorine than cow's milk. I also know that in areas where there is aluminum smelting environmental fluorine levels can be too high for humans. And so far that is all I know.
> 
> The levels listed don't seem out of line, but the ingredients could make a huge difference.
> 
> I would consider getting an iodized cobalt salt block as a complement to this mineral mix. I know they are listed online as being available in Canadian TSC stores, but of course, I don't know if you have a TSC, and I don't know if your store would carry it. They are almost always blue.
> 
> Let us know if you have any other questions, OK?


Here is the list of ingredients. It is vague however. I can try and get the exact type of copper/iron from them as well. if necessary however i was glad to read the levels do not seem out of line. I do have this mineral already and the goats do eat it. I plan to this spring/summer plan to do a soil analysis of the forest soil as we only have for the garden soil which is a lot different than what the goats would be foraging from.










I just recently acquired Himalayan pink salt for the goats and for us. about 25pounds for 42 dollars.

I also just came across
_Goat milk contains more chlorine, fluorine and silicon than any other domestic livestock. Chlorine and fluorine are natural germicides and fluorine assists in preventing diabetes._


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## mariarose

Island Milker said:


> Here is the list of ingredients. It is vague however.


I'm laughing so hard. I love understatement comedy and I think this was the perfect way to say that!

That list is certainly different than I am used to.


Island Milker said:


> I do have this mineral already and the goats do eat it.


That is the best kind of mineral, isn't it? One you can get, One they will eat, One that will do the job...


Island Milker said:


> I can try and get the exact type of copper/iron from them as well. if necessary


Not necessary for me. For your own understanding that would be just fine, and to help the company know what its customers want would be fine.

That step is entirely up to you, because you can watch them and see how they do, and make adjustments. That is the best way, anyway, watch, see, tweak, watch, see, tweak...


Island Milker said:


> I plan to this spring/summer plan to do a soil analysis of the forest soil as we only have for the garden soil


If you like. I find it much more important to watch my goats and adjust to that. @Damfino recently pointed out that the type of plants, how deep the roots go, change what minerals are in the forage. So while there is absolutely nothing wrong with an analysis, it will tell you what is available to plants in that spot. It does not tell you where the roots are going and what they are picking up. Watching, Seeing, Tweaking, is still going to be important.


Island Milker said:


> I also just came across
> _Goat milk contains more chlorine, fluorine and silicon than any other domestic livestock. Chlorine and fluorine are natural germicides and fluorine assists in preventing diabetes._


Yes, that is one of the first things I read on my internet search, when I wanted to sound more intelligent and knowledgeable about flourine than I actually am...


----------



## Island Milker

mariarose said:


> If you like. I find it much more important to watch my goats and adjust to that. @Damfino recently pointed out that the type of plants, how deep the roots go, change what minerals are in the forage. So while there is absolutely nothing wrong with an analysis, it will tell you what is available to plants in that spot. It does not tell you where the roots are going and what they are picking up. Watching, Seeing, Tweaking, is still going to be important.
> 
> Yes, that is one of the first things I read on my internet search, when I wanted to sound more intelligent and knowledgeable about flourine than I actually am...


From my understanding the soil analysis would show me what the PH level is which shows for which minerals become more available. The author Steve Solomon comes to mind Id recommend the Intelligent Gardener. We practice soil mineralizing here in our garden, so in theory if the minerals are not in the soil most likely they are not in the plants. Some elements become more available at different PH levels.

so the soil analysis is mainly for our own curiosity as there is a forage area we are going to create which will have native as well as forage trees/shrubs for the goats and our community. because you cannot get cascara from our tree nursery. I'd like to start a nursery for conservation reasons as well as they already are adapted to this island and do not need to adjust to the soil/climate.

If Canada had a soil map office id totally rely on them to give me this information. I really like the map of the levels of copper in the soil that one extension office has in the states.

Either way Thank you Mariarose I appreciate your response and effort.


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## Jessica84

Oh Mariarose!!! I do not remember if this is the EXACT same thing that I got but is the same brand and I'm pretty sure the same name (sheep salt with selenium) I just don't remember the calcium part but who knows, knowing my brain it's the exact same thing that I got. But I found it at a different feed store that I am buying grain from now


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## Dlbinn

Opinions on this mineral please...(I attached a photo of the tag)


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## mariarose

Dlbinn said:


> Opinions on this mineral please...(I attached a photo of the tag)


Thanks for giving us that shot of the tag. That's really helpful.

I'm pretty underwhelmed with the mineral mix, although I like several of the ingredients, and the fact that it says in the instructions to give free choice. It isn't the worst mineral I've seen given.

The calcium to phosphorus level is good. The copper and selenium are super low, but that can be supplemented fairly easily. I don't see an iodine level, so be sure your goats have an iodized salt lick or free choice kelp meal. I see zinc in the ingredients, and also vitamin D-3. But no levels are shown for those vital nutrients.

Definitely contact the company and ask for the Guaranteed Analysis of several nutrients. D-3, Zinc, Cobalt, Iodine, Manganese, and Magnesium. There's no reason the company should not have those numbers.

The salt and sodium levels are sky high, and will probably prevent your goats from getting enough other minerals.

If you must use this, please don't offer Baking soda, and do keep your eyes peeled for deficiencies, because of the salt and sodium.


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## Dlbinn

Thank you for your response. I’ve had ND’s for 2 years, but I’m constantly learning new things! I do not have to use this mineral, it is one that I’ve found locally (5 minutes away instead of driving an hour). However when it comes to my boys I’m willing to drive the hour to get a better mineral!


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## mariarose

Well, I think that using this is certainly better than using nothing at all, and I understand the convenience factor. If it comes down to using this until you get more of the other, then it is better to use this.

What mineral mix is an hour away? You've mentioned Manna Pro and also Purina Wind and Rain, Storm... I'd be interested to compare your options, because maybe it just isn't worth the drive, depending...

Both of them are MUCH better in copper and salt than this new one. The new one is slightly, and I do mean slightly, better in selenium, than the Manna Pro...


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## Dlbinn

mariarose said:


> Well, I think that using this is certainly better than using nothing at all, and I understand the convenience factor. If it comes down to using this until you get more of the other, then it is better to use this.
> 
> What mineral mix is an hour away? You've mentioned Manna Pro and also Purina Wind and Rain, Storm... I'd be interested to compare your options, because maybe it just isn't worth the drive, depending...
> 
> Both of them are MUCH better in copper and salt than this new one. The new one is slightly, and I do mean slightly, better in selenium, than the Manna Pro...


 Onyx is the brand. I've uploaded the tag so you can see the difference. IMO it's better for the goats-however if I am wrong please let me know! Like I said I am always learning!!


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## mariarose

Dlbinn said:


> Onyx is the brand... IMO it's better for the goats


I love Cargill's Right Now, Onyx. I used to be able to get it, but I can't anymore.
It is definitely worth your drive.
Good Job. I'm sorry it isn't closer to you.


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## mariarose

mariarose said:


> So far, they are both being eaten... About equally, I'd say.
> I'll let y'all know what happens.


I forgot I'd tell you about this. As the weather pressure eased, less and less of the sheep mineral was eaten. So when the stress was really high, the zinc in the sheep mineral seemed very attractive, and when that stress left, the demand for the goat mineral, with it's 1-4 copper to zinc ratio, remained high.


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## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> you like the Manna Pro, here is a similar, yet superior product you may investigate, if you WANT to...https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-6-phosphorus-cattle-mineral-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005


So this works for goats even though it's for cattle?I have the manna pro and my goats are way mineral deficient.


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## mariarose

That one is good, this next one is much better, because of the ingredients.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-wind-rain-storm-all-season-75-complete?cm_vc=-10005
There are several others (excellent others) listed in this thread... Feel free to read through and see if you find any you recognize from one of the stores available to you.

What symptoms of deficiency are you seeing? And how long have you been seeing them? If we know that, we may be able to offer suggestions for getting your goats back on track faster than just switching minerals.


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## odieclark

Are goats more susceptible to mites if minerals are off or deficient? Or are nights just one of those annoying issues that occur due to other factors that need to be figured out? It seems some of our 8-9 month olds have been once again been bothered by them, and thought we had overcome them earlier in the winter!?!


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## mariarose

Goats are much more susceptible to all parasites and all diseases when they don't have the nutrition they need. And minerals are a huge part of nutrition.

That is not to say your animals are deficient... You are pretty careful about minerals. Anything that suppresses the immune system could be at fault.

I just was answering the question in general.


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## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> That one is good, this next one is much better, because of the ingredients.
> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-wind-rain-storm-all-season-75-complete?cm_vc=-10005
> There are several others (excellent others) listed in this thread... Feel free to read through and see if you find any you recognize from one of the stores available to you.
> 
> What symptoms of deficiency are you seeing? And how long have you been seeing them? If we know that, we may be able to offer suggestions for getting your goats back on track faster than just switching minerals.


Ok I'll get that one. I'm not sure what minerals their deficient in but just found out about copper and copper bolused. I am also giving replamin plus weekly. I just want good loose minerals so I don't have to give copper boluse and replamin as much. I never bolused or gave minerals except the manna pro so that's why their deficient.


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## healthyishappy

I have only had goats for 1 1/2 years so I'm still learning a lot.


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## healthyishappy

So will this mineral be enough as long as I copper boluse and give replamin? Or does it depend on what my area is more deficient in?


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## mariarose

Many people use Purina Wind and Rain, Storm.
May I suggest a salt lick or 2? Goathiker likes this one
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...chPreview-_-DidYouMean-_-Product&cm_vc=-10005
She explained that the amino acids help the goat absorb and retain the nutrients and therefore the goats require less supplementation.


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## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> Or does it depend on what my area is more deficient in?


It depends, on several things. What your area is deficient/sufficient in, what antagonists you have, what sufficiencies/deficiencies are in the area where your food is grown, how healthy the gut is (scarring from cocci preventing uptake, etc.) Impossible to give a hard, fast, long distance answer.


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## healthyishappy

Ok cool thanks


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## Dwarf Dad

Something for your arsenal, Purina wind and rain Sheep!


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## mariarose

This past Winter, I put out a sheep mineral along with goat or cattle minerals, in an effort to supply extra zinc. At first they ate them about equally, but gradually ate less and less, and suddenly only wanted the goat mineral. This indicated to me they were choosing extra zinc during the time of greatest weather stress.

I was unaware that there was a sheep formula of Wind and Rain, Storm. Thanks for posting this, @Dwarf Dad


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> This past Winter, I put out a sheep mineral along with goat or cattle minerals, in an effort to supply extra zinc. At first they ate them about equally, but gradually ate less and less, and suddenly only wanted the goat mineral. This indicated to me they were choosing extra zinc during the time of greatest weather stress.
> 
> I was unaware that there was a sheep formula of Wind and Rain, Storm. Thanks for posting this, @Dwarf Dad


You are welcome. More than just welcome.
I knew others on here have asked about sheep minerals, so I posted.
Time for a question. ha ha ha. Goats already get a 2 gram copper bolus every three months and weekly 5 cc replamin plus. Do you think going to a 4 gram copper bolus now, after being without minerals for a month, would be ok?


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## mariarose

Dwarf Dad said:


> Do you think going to a 4 gram copper bolus now, after being without minerals for a month, would be ok?


If they are showing signs of copper deficiency, then yes. 4 grams would be a proper dose to start to make up for a deficiency. If no signs of deficiency, then stick to the regular dosage.


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## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> If they are showing signs of copper deficiency, then yes. 4 grams would be a proper dose to start to make up for a deficiency. If no signs of deficiency, then stick to the regular dosage.


Showing a little rust color, fish tail not completely gone. 4 it is, thank you.


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## GoofyGoat

@mariarose
I can't find any WRS in my local feed stores but can find the WRS HI 4 Complete ....should I go with that instead? We've got hard water, their diets is alfalfa hay free choice, alfalfa pellets, purina goat chow tons of fresh water the diet is ok but I've been trying to get WRS all season for weeks knowing I was getting low but it hasn't come in yet.
Here's the tag:


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## mariarose

Is the Hi-Mag 4 your only mineral mix choice? Is this one available by any chance? https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-6-phosphorus-cattle-mineral-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005

Is your forage lush? I don't really like high mag when the forage isn't lush.

Your diet and that mineral put together are very calcium heavy. (and Magnesium heavy, obviously!) Is there any way you could switch to free choice grass hay, just for a while? To up the phosphorus, I mean?


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## GoofyGoat

Our Sudan hay isn't in yet. and no we don't have much forage it's open prairie and they're semi dry lotted with me getting any branches I can from friends.
I'll see if they have the purina 6 today. I'm going to try one more feed store for the WRS when I run to Fort Worth later. Fingers crossed. It's brutally hot with high humidity so they're really needing they're minerals and salts so I am getting frustrated. I ordered the WRS a month a go at my local TSC...ugh
I didn't think the hi-mag 4 was a good choice thanks for confirming!
What about the WRS fly control if they have that, is that ok?


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## mariarose

I don't have the Fly Control numbers here, so I can't say immediately. If I find them, I can give you a better answer.

Yes, please do make sure they have salt, at the very least!!!! Loose (granular) is best right now.

IMO, they need both. A mineral mix and a separate salt lick. 

One of the best minerals I've found, and I can no longer get, is Cargills Onyx. Can you find that?

Do you have a Southern States? They have a couple of good cattle minerals. Even their Top Choice goat minerals is better than not having anything. Purina goat minerals is better than nothing, too. They are high in salt, but that isn't an awful thing in this heat...

Let me know how else I can help.


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## GoofyGoat

Normally, I have WRS, a trace mineral salt lick, a white salt lick and pink salt lick available at all times thinking they can pick and choose as needed. I hoped that would be a smorgasbord of different elements for them. I will look for a granular to add in today while I'm out and about. 
No, we don't have a Southern States around, only TSC. Atwood's, and some small feed stores. I don't mind running all over for these guys at all. My goats wouldn't touch the Cargills with a 10 foot pole I wound up giving it away...they thought I was poisoning them lol.


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## mariarose

From what I understand, the numbers for the Fly Control are similar to the All Purpose (the red bag that people normally get). So if your goats are OK with the red bag, go ahead and check a tag of the Fly Control and if they seem similar to you, go ahead and get that.

I was suggesting the loose salt because if they were salt starved, they may break teeth on the blocks trying to get at it. But it does not sound like they are salt starved.

I'd replace that white salt block when it runs out with something else, were they mine. It has nothing but salt, not even iodine, and you could spend that block space/money on a block that has something else along with it, such as sulfur or selenium or cobalt.

Atwoods, huh? I'll check it out.


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## mariarose

@GoofyGoat Can you get this one?
https://www.atwoods.com/ranch-pro-breeder-mineral-bag-50-lbs.html
I'd love to try it. I'd definitely have to supplement selenium, but I do anyway on almost everything I try.


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## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> @GoofyGoat Can you get this one?
> https://www.atwoods.com/ranch-pro-breeder-mineral-bag-50-lbs.html
> I'd love to try it. I'd definitely have to supplement selenium, but I do anyway on almost everything I try.


I'll look later when I go out. I do monthly selenium vitamin e paste religiously would that be enough? Right now everyone is doing pretty well except in copper which I just supplemented a couple weeks ago.


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## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> From what I understand, the numbers for the Fly Control are similar to the All Purpose (the red bag that people normally get). So if your goats are OK with the red bag, go ahead and check a tag of the Fly Control and if they seem similar to you, go ahead
> 
> I'd replace that white salt block when it runs out with something else, were they mine. It has nothing but salt, not even iodine, and you could spend that block space/money on a block that has something else along with it, such as sulfur or selenium or cobalt.
> 
> Atwoods, huh? I'll check it out.


I got the white salt when my sister moved and couldn't take it, it was new so I threw it out there I figured it couldn't hurt. They actually don't use it much so I hadn't planned on replacing it. I've looked for cobalt and can't find one and I was nervous about the sulphur with our hard water. I have 5 wethers so I'm pretty careful to lace their grain biweekly with AC. I read somewhere that sulphur was counter indicative to AC. I'll have to find it. It was one of the vet schools though, I try to find authoritative studies instead of random things on things this important.


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## mariarose

Monthly gel definitely wasn't enough for me. Might be for you!
Hard water and sulphurous water aren't synonymous. I have both, but that is coincidental.
Sulphur is a vital trace nutrient that should not be avoided when needed. I don't need it, because 2 of the wells on my property are sulphur wells, and a town close to me is actually named Sulphur Well. The town of Sulphur Well is the main town of the district, also named Sulphur Well. It's abundant here, is what I'm trying to say. And I've never had to supplement AC.

I tried to give sulphur, before I started figuring this stuff out. Nuh-uh... No Way, Jose!

So, you may, or may not need sulphur, I don't know your area. But if you need it, then don't keep it back simply because you also have to give AC for a separate issue.

Now, curiously, this area is extremely low in other minerals, such as cobalt and selenium. I can find Sulphur salt blocks everytime I turn around... Cobalt block? Selenium block? No. I have stops I have to make to different stores. I can get this here, I can get that there, but never the twain shall meet in a single store...


----------



## Jessica84

Has anyone tried the wind and rain with the fly control? My tractor supply swapped out the red bag for the fly control and I passed on it and got the Purina cattle minerals instead (which they really are not a huge fan of them). I searched online to see if anyone has used the fly control for goats to make sure it didn’t kill them off, abort kids or produce two headed kids (the important little things lol) and could not find where anyone has used it before.


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## mariarose

I've never tried it, even though I have it available at my TSC. But I know others here do use it, like the fly control aspect, and have not reported 2 headed kids...

I just don't reach for medicated staples as a preference.


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## GoofyGoat

Got the Atwoods bag you liked and took some tags off others they had so you have them on record  
I will upload them when I get home. If I can get the WRS all season I'll grab it but if they like this it'll save me $10 + each bag so maybe


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## mariarose

I find value in switching up their minerals from time to time. For one thing, they get to store up different minerals in their internal organs (one mineral is good in some things, another mineral is good in other things, and no mineral is perfect in all things) And for another thing, it teaches my goats to accept what I can get rather than what they want. 

All of us have supply issues from time to time. If we can supply what they need, rather than what they have decided they need, it won't make any difference when we've not ever taught them that change is OK.

In the wild, goats have no choice but to accept some changes. They have changing forage based on seasons, or based on locations (because they must travel from place to place)

In domestication, a nomadic existence is still often their experience and so the capacity for accepting change is still selected for and utilized.

BUT... sometimes they aren't allowed change, and the natural desire for what is known and familiar is what is selected for. That's absolutely workable, until that formulation or brand is suddenly unavailable.

As I said, I'd gladly give this a try if I could get it here, which I can't.

You can. I'm envious of you.


----------



## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> Monthly gel definitely wasn't enough for me. Might be for you!
> Hard water and sulphurous water aren't synonymous. I have both, but that is coincidental.
> Sulphur is a vital trace nutrient that should not be avoided when needed. I don't need it, because 2 of the wells on my property are sulphur wells, and a town close to me is actually named Sulphur Well. The town of Sulphur Well is the main town of the district, also named Sulphur Well. It's abundant here, is what I'm trying to say. And I've never had to supplement AC.
> 
> I tried to give sulphur, before I started figuring this stuff out. Nuh-uh... No Way, Jose!
> 
> So, you may, or may not need sulphur, I don't know your area. But if you need it, then don't keep it back simply because you also have to give AC for a separate issue.
> 
> Now, curiously, this area is extremely low in other minerals, such as cobalt and selenium. I can find Sulphur salt blocks everytime I turn around... Cobalt block? Selenium block? No. I have stops I have to make to different stores. I can get this here, I can get that there, but never the twain shall meet in a single store...


I'll grab a sulphur block next time I'm out. Thanks!


----------



## mariarose

GoofyGoat said:


> I'll grab a sulphur block next time I'm out. Thanks!


No rush. You have time to figure out if you need one or not. I suspect cobalt or selenium would be a better next step for you!


----------



## Jessica84

mariarose said:


> I've never tried it, even though I have it available at my TSC. But I know others here do use it, like the fly control aspect, and have not reported 2 headed kids...
> 
> I just don't reach for medicated staples as a preference.


Thank you! I don't really care for the fly control part either, especially because the flies really don't bother the goats, but I would rather use that then what I picked up. But they have the purina now so they will just have to deal with it for now.


----------



## mariarose

Jessica84 said:


> Thank you!


and Thank YOU, for bringing a voice of someone who sincerely loves her goats, but is still willing to say, "They'll just have to deal..." I've run into the opposite way too often in the past year. Sometimes, they just gotta deal, like we do.


----------



## GoofyGoat

Promised tag photos WRS AND WRS FLY CONTROL (r)
Atwood's breeder on left 
Block lick my goats LOVE


----------



## mariarose

Of all those, I like the Atwood's Breeder best.


----------



## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> Of all those, I like the Atwood's Breeder best.


What about it grabbed your attention?


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

I found these two minerals at the local feed shop here. Could you please tell me if they are good or not? @mariarose


----------



## mariarose

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> I found these two minerals at the local feed shop here.


Well, that certainly is convenient. Tell me, would you consider your forage lush right now?

If not, I would not give the first one. I can't tell, really, about the second one because of the inadequacy and paucity of the GA. Lots of ingredients listed have no corresponding entry in the GA... Like Magnesium and iodine. How much does it supply? We just don't know, do we? I like the high copper in each.

The ingredients are OK on both. Not amazing, but OK. Lot of oxides... Altosid is something I absolutely avoid but I realize others don't feel that way. And probably for good reasons, too.

All in all, except for the Altosid, I think I'd be more willing to try the second than the first, and see how they do. I can always switch later, right?

You'll want to supply an extra, separate salt.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

I found these two minerals at the local feed shop here. Could you please tell me if they are good or not? @mariarose

View attachment 159379
View attachment 159381


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

Sorry for the double post. 

I would definitley consider their forage lush. Very green because of all the rain. I also gice Redmond lick, PW&R fly control, and carrgill onyx. I think i might get it next time i am in town! What is altosid? 

Ok. for the fly control

I used to use the PWR red bag, but they stopped selling it, so i switched to fly control. I dont have the tag on the bag. Dont know where it is, but it works really well for me. I dont like that it is medicated, but i will have to deal until i get the old stuff back


----------



## mariarose

The ingredients in the ONYX are far superiour to these. Is there a reason you'd want these instead of the Onyx? You don't need both minerals and I'd much rather supply the Onyx.

That's OK about the double post. I was puzzling over it though, trying to find the differences. I never was any good at "Where's Waldo" and they looked exactly alike to me.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

mariarose said:


> Is there a reason you'd want these instead of the Onyx?


It is cheaper, i get cargill at the same place as i can get this stuff. the carrgill is almost 65$ for a 50lb bag, this stuff is,i beleive 18$ for a 50lb bag. I always need more copper in my goats diet, i battle with copper deficiency all the time, along with zinc deficiency.

Does anybody know of a mineral that is high in zinc. I forgot to mention, i give my milkers kelp in their food along with BOSS. All my goats are getting BOSS right now b/c of zinc deficiency, but that wont last long. Just until the problem is solved


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

Wup! Altosid is the fly control :bonk: lol


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> It is cheaper, i get cargill at the same place as i can get this stuff. the carrgill is almost 65$ for a 50lb bag, this stuff is,i beleive 18$ for a 50lb bag. I always need more copper in my goats diet, i battle with copper deficiency all the time, along with zinc deficiency.
> 
> Does anybody know of a mineral that is high in zinc. I forgot to mention, i give my milkers kelp in their food along with BOSS. All my goats are getting BOSS right now b/c of zinc deficiency, but that wont last long. Just until the problem is solved


I'd like to point out that it isn't just the amount of zinc, but the ratio of copper to zinc is important else the amount of zinc listed is not the same as what could get utilized.


----------



## mariarose

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> the carrgill is almost 65$ for a 50lb bag, this stuff is,i beleive 18$ for a 50lb bag.


That's the difference in ingredients. I pay $29 for 25 lbs of my favourite mineral. The less you pay for your mineral, the more you'll pay for supplements that your mineral doesn't supply.


Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> Does anybody know of a mineral that is high in zinc.


Onyx.
Sweetlix MeatMaker
My regional mix from Tennessee Co-op.

You might like the below salt block. A lot of zinc. But the salt will prevent a zinc overload https://www.doitbest.com/products/759243

You can get ZinPro from The Jolly German site. That is a good source of zinc. It's at the bottom of the page here
http://www.goatworld.com/store/

Up above in the comments, I talk about how I handled a need for zinc this past Winter. I used a sheep mineral, so the goats could choose a goat mineral for when they needed more copper or a sheep mineral for when they needed more zinc. The other minerals were similar in both.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

I will see if TSC or Carmine feed (local feed store) has either one. I will look for a sheep mineral there too. 

I know there is a page where you can find stores that carry carrill. Is there a page like that for Zinpro?


----------



## mariarose

Here are some numbers for zinpro representatives. They should at least be able to direct you where to ask...

@Nigerian dwarf goat Here are the numbers. I was tending a snake bite and I guess I just forgot to paste the page. I'm so embarrassed.
https://www.zinpro.com/products/fin...atives/united-states/us-dairy-representatives


----------



## GoofyGoat

Which zinpro do you get the 40? or the plex c ? 
I could use some extra zinc in my goats diet for skin issues.


----------



## mariarose

GoofyGoat said:


> Which zinpro do you get the 40? or the plex c ?


If you are asking me, I don't get either. I have access to 3 mineral mixes with good zinc sources, and I also have that salt block that I linked to, and of course, I'm the one who talked about using a sheep mineral as another option for my goats, so that one could have the regular minerals with copper, or one could have the regular minerals, including zinc, but with no copper. According to what they thought they needed extra of. That system worked REALLY well for me last Winter.

So I've never used either, personally. But ZinPro is the name if you want a good zinc source. But be sure that's what you need (or allow your goats to make that choice for themselves, as I did this past Winter) because if the zinc to copper ratio gets out of whack, then you can't use either mineral as well as the numbers suggest you could.

What are you seeing that tells you that more zinc is needed?

One last point... BOSS is not high in zinc if it isn't grown in ground that contains enough zinc. There is nothing magical about plants that can make a mineral appear when there is none to begin with. Plant magic makes unavailable minerals more bioavailable. But they had to be there in some form, first.

I know that you are not the one who brought it up. I'm just throwing it out there for everyone.


----------



## GoofyGoat

I just wanted to see if getting zinpro would help with the dry flaky skin on one of my does. She's the only one with the problem. We've brushed, used selsium blue shampoo, given her omega oils on her feed, given zinc tablets, I think about every remedy I can find but she's still flaky. No lice or mites could be found by myself or vet. She's not super itchy besides bug bites so, I'm stumped and getting desperate to find something to help her.


----------



## mariarose

GoofyGoat said:


> I just wanted to see if getting zinpro would help with the dry flaky skin on one of my does. She's the only one with the problem. We've brushed, used selsium blue shampoo, given her omega oils on her feed, given zinc tablets, I think about every remedy I can find but she's still flaky. No lice or mites could be found by myself or vet. She's not super itchy besides bug bites so, I'm stumped and getting desperate to find something to help her.


try the 40 then


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

Isnt there a soil map on the internet to find out how much mineral is in your soil . I am trying to find it but i cant


----------



## mariarose

There are several. I don't pay that much attention to them, because my feed is grown all over the place and the maps are out of date and do NOT indicate the level of antagonists. So a map may show your level as being fine, but not show that antagonists are blocking it, and your grain isn't grown there and your hay isn't grown there.... etc. etc.

You have to watch your herd and respond to local situations anyway...


----------



## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> try the 40 then


That's what I was thinking, because the other has a lot of magnesium so it would be better as a diet supplement for a more lush forage situation than I have or can provide I believe. Thanks again as always


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> try the 40 then


Replamin cleared up dry flaky skin in mine. ‍♀


----------



## GoofyGoat

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> Isnt there a soil map on the internet to find out how much mineral is in your soil . I am trying to find it but i cant


I believe the maps are at 
Www.usgs.gov

That's the US Geological Survey site.


----------



## mariarose

But her mineral is very low in zinc anyway. Her mineral is only 1.5 to 1 zinc to copper. She's going to run into zinc problems soon. So I'd go the zinpro route first because, as you know, Replamin also has a low ratio in that..


----------



## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> But her mineral is very low in zinc anyway. Her mineral is only 1.5 to 1 zinc to copper. She's going to run into zinc problems soon. So I'd go the zinpro route first because, as you know, Replamin also has a low ratio in that..


Thanks, I'm also feeding, WRS, Redmond red salts, and a pink salt lick on a rope. I have a smorgasbord of minerals out because my land is SO depleted its ridiculous. I had a soil sample analysis and YIKES! Not to mention I have hard water and fracking near me. I'm paranoid that they're missing out on something so I'm making them a buffet to pick and choose from.


----------



## mariarose

GoofyGoat said:


> I'm making them a buffet to pick and choose from.


https://www.abcplus.biz/Categories.aspx?Id=Organic_Beef_Organic_Kits
You'll have to order selenium separately.


----------



## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> https://www.abcplus.biz/Categories.aspx?Id=Organic_Beef_Organic_Kits
> You'll have to order selenium separately.


Oh that's a neat site! I see my paycheck disappearing quickly again! I guess a fourth job is in order


----------



## healthyishappy

GoofyGoat said:


> Oh that's a neat site! I see my paycheck disappearing quickly again! I guess a fourth job is in order


Wow you seriously have 3 jobs?
Guess I better learn to be a better entrepreneur!


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> https://www.abcplus.biz/Categories.aspx?Id=Organic_Beef_Organic_Kits
> You'll have to order selenium separately.


That looks like a nice kit!
Expensive but you get a lot of mineral!
Is that used to make your own mineral mix? 
You add this much of this and this much of that?


----------



## GoofyGoat

healthyishappy said:


> Wow you seriously have 3 jobs?
> Guess I better learn to be a better entrepreneur!


Yep, it's brutal but my farm is paid for and I'm knocking down everything else while I basically have my health so I can play with my monsters when I'm retired


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> Is that used to make your own mineral mix?
> You add this much of this and this much of that?


No. This is true cafeteria style mineral supplementation. You put each of these out (AND a plain white noniodized salt) and the animals choose what they need. You can look at the ingredients on the site and see how superior they are. It takes a bit of poking around to truly understand the site and the process. But you'll learn a lot while you poke.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> No. This is true cafeteria style mineral supplementation. You put each of these out (AND a plain white noniodized salt) and the animals choose what they need. You can look at the ingredients on the site and see how superior they are. It takes a bit of poking around to truly understand the site and the process. But you'll learn a lot while you poke.


Oh!!!!
So your goats get everything they need sk you dont gave to supplement very much!!!!
Too bad they dont have a smaller size like a 10lb bags.
Mine will never eat 25lbs of mineral.


----------



## healthyishappy

GoofyGoat said:


> my farm is paid


:goodjob:
I understand the happiness of having something paid off!!!!
Course I only owed $700 on my ATV to my dad but too me that's still a lot of money!


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> Too bad they dont have a smaller size like a 10lb bags.


5 lb bags.


----------



## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> Here are some numbers for zinpro representatives. They should at least be able to direct you where to ask...
> 
> @Nigerian dwarf goat Here are the numbers. I was tending a snake bite and I guess I just forgot to paste the page. I'm so embarrassed.
> https://www.zinpro.com/products/fin...atives/united-states/us-dairy-representatives


@mariarose Who got bit? You had another snake bite in a doe a while ago didn't you? Poor thing!


----------



## mariarose

Firecracker, this time. Timex and Daisy were earlier.

Big snake year.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> 5 lb bags.


Yup I found that one.
Why is the 12 25lb bags $400 and the 15 5-12.5lb bags $320?
It seems like the 5 lb kit would be a lot less expensive?


----------



## healthyishappy

Been poking around a little bit.
So you can order each bag separate.
@mariarose do you think if I bought the copper bag that I wouldn't have to supplement copper or at least only have to supplement a little?
I would like the copper and maybe selenium. I think my pw&r and sweetlix will take care of the rest. I know my goats will never get enough copper from a mineral mix


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> They do have 5lb bags?


Yep. Just spend some time on there. You'll see. They have a kit of 15 5lb bags and all their individual minerals also come in 5 lb bags.
Still expensive though.
Here is the kit with the 5 lb bags
https://www.abcplus.biz/Organic_Beef_15-Mineral_Kit
Here is an individual mineral so you can see the choice
https://www.abcplus.biz/categories17.aspx?Id=Organic_Beef_Minerals_Cu-Mix
To see the ingredients of each mineral, click on Click Here on each mineral page.


----------



## mariarose

I don't know. Probably you can use just that one, because it is mostly salt. I do know they are insistent on having a white salt lick to go with these offerings.

I know that I've regularly thought about the Selenium one.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> I don't know. Probably you can use just that one, because it is mostly salt. I do know they are insistent on having a white salt lick to go with these offerings.


Sorry, what are you referring too?


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> Sorry, what are you referring too?


This quote below


healthyishappy said:


> do you think if I bought the copper bag that I wouldn't have to supplement copper or at least only have to supplement a little?


They aren't meant to be single, but I think you could use them as singles, as long as you had the salt.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> This quote below
> 
> They aren't meant to be single, but I think you could use them as singles, as long as you had the salt.


Even though I have three salt licks I still need a white one If i am to give them this copper?


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> Yup I found that one.
> Why is the 12 25lb bags $400 and the 15 5-12.5lb bags $320?
> It seems like the 5 lb kit would be a lot less expensive?


You'd have to ask the company.

Usually larger sizes of anything, although more expensive in total, are a lot more economical per unit of weight. a 5lb bag of potatoes is going to cost more per pound than a 50 lb box of potatoes is, but yes, the box will be some higher.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> Even though I have three salt licks I still need a white one If i am to give them this copper?


That's what the company is saying.

I'm not affiliated with them, so I can't answer for them. You might have to just ask them this stuff?


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> That's what the company is saying.
> 
> I'm not affiliated with them, so I can't answer for them. You might have to just ask them this stuff?


Good idea, I will contact them. Thank you!


----------



## mariarose

@healthyishappy 
Here is their pdf catalog. I've never been through it, but it looks very informative.
https://www.abcplus.biz/Images/Catalogs/Dairy Beef - FPD408-58.pdf


----------



## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> Firecracker, this time. Timex and Daisy were earlier.
> 
> Big snake year.


Jeez....Hopefully they were dry bites! poor things OUCH!
Are you using activated charcoal paste and MOM or what's your best treatment?


----------



## healthyishappy

I read the ingredients for the copper. 
Now I understand why I didn't understand what you meant in post #387.
That would be silly if it was 100% copper!


----------



## GoofyGoat

I just literally just received my Redmond goat mineral mix...it looks like it might balance all the others out (maybe) it's a bit high in salt but with the heat salt will make them drink more....what do you think @mariarose 
Here's the GA


----------



## healthyishappy

So I can get one 25lb bag if copper for 25+ 25 shipping.
@mariarose do you think its worth it?
Its either copper boluse which you can underdose, overdose or wait to long to give it.
Or I could give this and then they could manage their own intake and hopefully not gave deficiency.
I know it's a matter of what I want but I just want your opinion.


----------



## mariarose

Redmond makes the best salt products, possibly in the world. This is better than your Himalayan salt.
You need to regard this as an extremely high quality salt, not as your mineral mix, even though it is badly named.
I use this one https://www.redmondagriculture.com/products/10-fine-mineral-salt/ as my table salt.
Well Done. I love it.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> So I can get one 25lb bag if copper for 25+ 25 shipping.
> @mariarose do you think its worth it?
> Its either copper boluse which you can underdose, overdose or wait to long to give it.
> Or I could give this and then they could manage their own intake and hopefully not gave deficiency.
> I know it's a matter of what I want but I just want your opinion.


In your case, I'd just wait and use boluses for a while. We know the boluses will work with your mineral plan. This is an expense that keeps many of us only thinking about doing this, rather than doing it, and I can't give you the same kind of guarantees that this single supplement will work with your mineral regime. I don't see why it wouldn't.... But I don't _*know*_.

Whatever you decide to do, we're here for you.


----------



## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> Redmond makes the best salt products, possibly in the world. This is better than your Himalayan salt.
> You need to regard this as an extremely high quality salt, not as your mineral mix, even though it is badly named.
> I use this one https://www.redmondagriculture.com/products/10-fine-mineral-salt/ as my table salt.
> Well Done. I love it.


Thanks, it's just an addition to my goat buffet of good for you stuffs  my wether Sirius (avatar) dove into it and didn't come up for air for like 3-4 minutes. He really dug in.


----------



## mariarose

GoofyGoat said:


> Sirius (avatar)


I always wondered who was sniffing me in that pic...


----------



## GoofyGoat

He's an up close and personal kind of brat. He gives snuffles if you invite him up. Otherwise he won't jump on you. He was my snuggle buddy and used to sleep in my arms as a baby when I napped in my lazy boy. Yep he's spoiled!


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

I got this trace mineral block today because they were out of the big one

https://www.farmandfleet.com/produc..._2G4Z2KKv7-KzD6V_QNhCrrKPRTrSGIBoCKVEQAvD_BwE

The ingredients are:

Salt min...95.0%
Salt max...98.0%
Zinc min...5,300 ppm
manganese min... 5,300 ppm
iron min...2700 ppm
Vitamin E min...270 I.U./LB

Copper min...1,000 ppm
copper max...1600 ppm
Iodine min...16 ppm
Cobalt min... 16 ppm
Selenium min...14 ppm

I got it because the zinc is high (at least i think it is, correct me if I'm wrong)

It is the horse one because they were out of the 50 lb one, so i will be back there tomorrow to get the big one, then give the little one to my buck.

Here is the wind and rain fly control tag. I found it in my records today. Sorry about the glare, it is laminated so the shadow may make it a bit hard to read. If you need a better pic, I can get one


----------



## mariarose

@Nigerian dwarf goat did your goats like that 4 lb block?

It's interesting here. My goats aren't touching any mineral mix, or any salt lick, EXCEPT my selenium salt. In the last 2 weeks, I've gone from 2 whole blocks to 2 whole broken pieces. They don't want anything else, just the selenium salt blocks. Not even the Trophy Rock, which is their normal go-to. I know it must be the selenium they are going after, if it was only salt, they'd be after the Trophy Rock, if not one of the other (many) salt licks I provide... But that is confusing, because one of the mineral mixes is really high in selenium. It must also be high in something else, that they don't want.... The urine is copious and light coloured, so they are drinking enough. I guess all is well???



GoofyGoat said:


> Promised tag photos WRS AND WRS FLY CONTROL (r)
> Atwood's breeder on left
> Block lick my goats LOVE


So, do you have any response to the Atwood's Breeder yet? Has Sirius shared any of the Redmond salt with anyone else? Wow. Looking at the Atwood's other mineral, that's a whole lot of nothing, isn't it? SMH. Have you gotten any ZinPro 40 yet? Or did you decide to hold off?

Thanks, @Nigerian dwarf goat and @GoofyGoat for the tag pics! Very kind of you.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

my goats do like it. About half of it is gone already, but i got the apple favored one for horses.


----------



## GoofyGoat

@mariarose. Lol, yes Sirius finally came up for air but I've had to refill it twice since the rest of the herd discovered it. I'm holding off on the Zinpro for a week or two just to see if this heavy duty consumption slows down but I will probably order some. Mine have gone through a lot of the breeders once they got used to the taste. Right now I have WRS and it side by side in all 3 mineral feeders just to see if it might be a good switch but they still go for WRS so maybe I'll just use both. The three 7 month olds love their block so it might be good for them here's the tag,


----------



## healthyishappy

@mariarose,
Do you think I should offer loose salt along with the blocks?


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> @mariarose,
> Do you think I should offer loose salt along with the blocks?


I don't really know if that's necessary.

I prefer loose to blocks, as blocks can be hard on their teeth if you're goats are dumb and don't understand to lick them (a.k.a. E&F)


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> (a.k.a. E&F)


LOL!!!!


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I don't really know if that's necessary.
> 
> I prefer loose to blocks, as blocks can be hard on their teeth if you're goats are dumb and don't understand to lick them (a.k.a. E&F)


I was just curious if they can get enough salt from a block.
Just another of my questions to provide the best for my goats!


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> You'd have to ask the company.
> 
> Usually larger sizes of anything, although more expensive in total, are a lot more economical per unit of weight. a 5lb bag of potatoes is going to cost more per pound than a 50 lb box of potatoes is, but yes, the box will be some higher.


I contacted the company and they said its fine for goats and you still need a white salt block because they should be able to have a salt source that doesn't have minerals.
I kinda disagree because the trace mineral block only has a tiny bit of minerals and I don't think it matters. And plus my goats will always need the extra mineral.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> @mariarose,
> Do you think I should offer loose salt along with the blocks?


Are they spending an inordinate amount of time at the blocks? If so, then perhaps a single bag will help them get it into their system and then they'll slow down. If not, then I do think you are fine with the blocks.

Again, I can't see what you are seeing. That's the reason for all my caveats.

Really, the only time I see it as very important to have loose salt is when the forage is extremely fast growing. Loose salt will help you avoid an emergency grass tetany situation.

So far. As I learn more, I do change my advice and practices. I can only say what I know at that moment, and provide lots of caveats.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> they should be able to have a salt source that doesn't have minerals.
> I kinda disagree because the trace mineral block only has a tiny bit of minerals and I don't think it matters.


Well, it obviously does matter, because we do get benefit from the mineral salt, or we wouldn't pay more for them...
But it does have a bit of the "covering our butt" feel...
But a white salt block, or even a cheap grocery store container of white table salt, doesn't cost that much, not compared to the price of a goat...

I think I would do it. If they don't use it, I'm not out much.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Really, the only time I see it as very important to have loose salt is when the forage is extremely fast growing. Loose salt will help you avoid an emergency grass tetany situation


Unfortunately I dont have any forage so that's not an issue.


----------



## mariarose

So are they spending all their time at the blocks? Are they biting them? Are they fighting over them?

If so (to any of the above) then I'd see an advantage to giving them loose salt. If not, then I think you are good.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> Hi Groovy. I'm glad you asked me that. No, I do not regard it as a problem because I feed so much alfalfa, either as hay, or as pellets. The mineral has the selenium, iodine, and copper I need. The alfalfa has the calcium I need. The calcium is so much easier for me to find to supplement. I have to respond to the local levels I have.
> 
> I am so incredibly underwhelmed by Manna Pro's levels of anything except for the calcium/phosphorus levels. But I know that it is a very popular mineral mix and when something is working I won't undermine that. I just wanted to let people know who have access to this store that they have an option they might be unaware of. It was here on this sight that I learned of the advantages of Onyx, so when my local Co-Op started carrying it, I was glad to jump on it Yay!!!! I had no ability to get Sweetlix until now and I wanted to share that I now could, and maybe others could.
> 
> But my favourite, and the one I keep recommending is the Co-op brand.
> 
> If you like the Manna Pro, here is a similar, yet superior product you may investigate, if you WANT to...https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-6-phosphorus-cattle-mineral-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005
> 
> DON'T get this one. HORRIBLE...https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/nutrebeef-cattle-mineral?cm_vc=-10005 I still have the info they emailed me about this product, If you want it then email me at [email protected] and I'll be glad to send the info along.
> 
> Yes, loose mineral mixes can make me seem a little....Loose?....Mixed? I've stopped telling people about it because I realize I'm sounding weird now.
> 
> But this post was not for people who are happy with what they have. It is for people who want something they should have, want to have, but have been unable to have. Once upon a time, I would have been thrilled to have this info. Now I don't need it, but others might want it, so here it is. Stockdales has the ability to get Sweetlix. If you have a Stockdales, and if you want Sweetlix, then ask them about it. Stockdales is amazingly helpful.
> I still like the Co-op Supreme Goat Mineral more, personally.


Where can Co-op Supreme be found?


----------



## mariarose

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Where can Co-op Supreme be found?


It is regional, centered in TN.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> So are they spending all their time at the blocks? Are they biting them? Are they fighting over them?
> 
> If so (to any of the above) then I'd see an advantage to giving them loose salt. If not, then I think you are good.


No they are not fighting, biting, or spending all their time at the blocks.


----------



## Alpine Crazy

Alright, I’m here! I’ve been recommended to this thread for my doe who needs some more minerals in her diet. Trying to figure out which is best... she had bad parasites and her milk supply went down. I’ll read in on all y’all messages and ask questions lol


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Alpine Crazy said:


> Alright, I'm here! I've been recommended to this thread for my doe who needs some more minerals in her diet. Trying to figure out which is best... she had bad parasites and her milk supply went down. I'll read in on all y'all messages and ask questions lol


Quick mention, a copper deficient goat is quite susceptible to parasites. If a goat has enough copper in their system they can fight them off for the most part.


----------



## healthyishappy

Alpine Crazy said:


> Alright, I'm here! I've been recommended to this thread for my doe who needs some more minerals in her diet. Trying to figure out which is best... she had bad parasites and her milk supply went down. I'll read in on all y'all messages and ask questions lol


Just by reading the whole thread you can probably figure out what you need....


----------



## Alpine Crazy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Quick mention, a copper deficient goat is quite susceptible to parasites. If a goat has enough copper in their system they can fight them off for the most part.


What supplements have good copper?


----------



## healthyishappy

Alpine Crazy said:


> What supplements have good copper?


Most people give copper boluses.


----------



## Alpine Crazy

healthyishappy said:


> Most people give copper boluses.


I am not familiar with that... I'll do some research on it though. Thanks!


----------



## healthyishappy

Alpine Crazy said:


> I am not familiar with that... I'll do some research on it though. Thanks!


Yes it's a pill full of copper oxide, the rods stay in the rumen and slowly are absorbed.
A general rule of thumb is 1 gram per 22lbs of weight.
Depending how deficient your goat is you might need more.


----------



## Alpine Crazy

healthyishappy said:


> Yes it's a pill full of copper oxide, the rods stay in the rumen and slowly are absorbed.
> A general rule of thumb is 1 gram per 22lbs of weight.
> Depending how deficient your goat is you might need more.


@mariarose mentioned in one of the first comments that the mineral she uses has enough copper, so if I did that mineral could I not have to give them copper pills?


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Alpine Crazy said:


> @mariarose mentioned in one of the first comments that the mineral she uses has enough copper, so if I did that mineral could I not have to give them copper pills?


Some minerals supply enough copper. I would start with loose minerals and see where to go after you choose one. Copper bolusing not only helps provide copper but can also kill barber pole worms - so helpful in many aspects but right now I say focus on finding a good loose mineral.

Do you have hard water or well water?


----------



## Alpine Crazy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Some minerals supply enough copper. I would start with loose minerals and see where to go after you choose one. Copper bolusing not only helps provide copper but can also kill barber pole worms - so helpful in many aspects but right now I say focus on finding a good loose mineral.
> 
> Do you have hard water or well water?


Well water.


----------



## healthyishappy

Alpine Crazy said:


> @mariarose mentioned in one of the first comments that the mineral she uses has enough copper, so if I did that mineral could I not have to give them copper pills?


Yes it can.
But depending on a few different factors like what your ground is deficient in and if you have well water than you most likely will need to copper boluse.
I have to copper boluse because I have both well water and deficient ground.


----------



## healthyishappy

Alpine Crazy said:


> Well water.


Then I assume you will have to boluse.


----------



## mariarose

You are welcome here. I do recommend you read the thread all the way through, for the sake of not repeating questions and answers.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> Then I assume you will have to boluse.


@happyishealthy slow your roll I appreciate your enthusiasm but let's try not to overwhelm someone just getting into the world of minerals.

With hard well water copper bolusing is usually necessary, but we can talk more on that later, right now a starter loose mineral and probably a good salt block/loose salt will get you where you need right now.

I didn't see overwhelming signs of copper deficiency in your one dairy goat, but if you wish to post photos of yours we can help to tell you if your goats need more supplementation than just a loose mineral RIGHT NOW.


----------



## Alpine Crazy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> @happyishealthy slow your roll I appreciate your enthusiasm but let's try not to overwhelm someone just getting into the world of minerals.
> 
> With hard well water copper bolusing is usually necessary, but we can talk more on that later, right now a starter loose mineral and probably a good salt block/loose salt will get you where you need right now.
> 
> I didn't see overwhelming signs of copper deficiency in your one dairy goat, but if you wish to post photos of yours we can help to tell you if your goats need more supplementation than just a loose mineral RIGHT NOW.


What parts of their body would you like to see? Might as well figure it out.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Alpine Crazy said:


> What parts of their body would you like to see? Might as well figure it out.


Well copper affects many parts, I encourage you to read this article, then come back either having observed and identified these yourself, or with an idea of what body parts to show:

https://thriftyhomesteader.com/goats-and-copper-deficiency/


----------



## mariarose

Again, I do ask that the entire thread be read first. Sincerely. This is about different mixes for the most part.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> Again, I do ask that the entire thread be read first. Sincerely. This is about different mixes for the most part.


It's a good read. Sat down with some popcorn, put my feet up - just kidding  more like me sitting outside waiting for my goats to poop for a fecal. But either way, a good and informative read.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> @happyishealthy slow your roll I appreciate your enthusiasm but let's try not to overwhelm someone just getting into the world of minerals.


Good point! ops2:


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> Good point! ops2:


I really do love the enthusiasm, you are becoming very knowledgeable! I am one to always spit out all the information I know and make someone's brain spin, I've learned patience after time!


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I really do love the enthusiasm, you are becoming very knowledgeable! I am one to always spit out all the information I know and make someone's brain spin, I've learned patience after time!


I do try to help.
Haven't learned patience yet!!
My brain just absorbs everything so I kinda go on tangents!


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> I do try to help.
> Haven't learned patience yet!!
> My brain just absorbs everything so I kinda go on tangents!


Don't lose that quality it's fantastic!!!!


----------



## healthyishappy

By the way @NigerianDwarfOwner707 if you ever want to mention me in a thread and me to get an alert my username is @healthyishappy not @happyishealthy!


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> By the way @NigerianDwarfOwner707 if you ever want to mention me in a thread and me to get an alert my username is @healthyishappy not @happyishealthy!


Lol I'm sorry I know that, just distracted while typing. My bad.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Lol I'm sorry I know that, just distracted while typing. My bad.


That's fine, I dont mind, I just don't get notified.


----------



## Alpine Crazy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Well copper affects many parts, I encourage you to read this article, then come back either having observed and identified these yourself, or with an idea of what body parts to show:
> 
> https://thriftyhomesteader.com/goats-and-copper-deficiency/


Thank you! I read this and am a little confused... it said alfalfa is bad because it can make them copper deficient but everyone on this forum says to feed alfalfa pellets and hay. Also I know alfalfa can cause an "upset stomach" because it's so rich... this is why I'm here trying to find out the right balance for my goaties.


----------



## healthyishappy

Alpine Crazy said:


> Thank you! I read this and am a little confused... it said alfalfa is bad because it can make them copper deficient but everyone on this forum says to feed alfalfa pellets and hay. Also I know alfalfa can cause an "upset stomach" because it's so rich... this is why I'm here trying to find out the right balance for my goaties.


Alfalfa is not bad just high in calcium which counteracts copper.
It has a very high protein level.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Alpine Crazy said:


> Thank you! I read this and am a little confused... it said alfalfa is bad because it can make them copper deficient but everyone on this forum says to feed alfalfa pellets and hay. Also I know alfalfa can cause an "upset stomach" because it's so rich... this is why I'm here trying to find out the right balance for my goaties.


Too many alfalfa pellets can be too much calcium and molybdenum and cause deficiencies. Too much can also cause an upset stomach. A happy medium won't do any harm and benefits goats in MOST cases.

If you have calcium heavy water I don't usually recommend it.

Alfalfa is good protein for milking goats. And good to balance a lot of grain with boys (which is high in phosphorus)

But alfalfa pellets and alfalfa hay may be too much - or alfalfa hay and calcium heavy water may be too much.

It's all a balancing act.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Too much alfalfa pellets can be too much calcium and molybdenum and cause deficiencies. Too much can also cause an upset stomach. A happy medium won't do any harm and benefits goats in MOST cases.
> 
> If you have calcium heavy water I don't usually recommend it.


I have calcium heavy water and like to feed alfalfa because my goats do very good on it. I just have to supplement lots and lots of copper.


----------



## Alpine Crazy

My brain is spinning... lol I’m going to go back and read this very long thread. But first I’ve gotta go take care of my goats. I’ll get back to you if I have any questions. Thanks!


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> I have calcium heavy water and like to feed alfalfa because my goats do very good on it. I just have to supplement lots and lots of copper.


However for wethers this mix is not always just a matter of copper.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Alpine Crazy said:


> My brain is spinning... lol I'm going to go back and read this very long thread. But first I've gotta go take care of my goats. I'll get back to you if I have any questions. Thanks!


Good idea.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> However for wethers this mix is not always just a matter of copper.


Good point.


----------



## CCCSAW

Ok just want to understand. Zinc...

So I'm pretty sure 1 or both of my oberhasli are zinc deficient, correct me if I'm wrong, dandruff and hair loss. Yes they need copper too, but for some reason I can't find mine and need to get more.
So zinc binds with calcium right? And alfalfa is high in calcium right? So they get 1 flake alfalfa and 1 flake orchard grass twice a day plus free range grazing on 5-6 acres but it's mostly dry and brown except for some summer weeds. So let's just estimate with the horse and 5 goats everyone is getting about 1/4-1/3 alfalfa 1/4-1/3 orchard and 1/3-1/2 grazing for their daily rations. I don't feel my alfalfa is to high to be binding the zinc as much as I feel maybe the field is to dry to provide enough zinc? I need to get replamin too. Just waiting on a confirmation on my house refi before I spend any more money this week. Am I feeding to much alfalfa? 

The herd in 2 oberhasli does about 6 and 8 year. And 3 boer does about 7-8 month, 10 months and about 2 years old (give or take a few months). And one 1 horse, male castrated about 10 or 12 years old


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

CCCSAW said:


> Ok just want to understand. Zinc...
> 
> So I'm pretty sure 1 or both of my oberhasli are zinc deficient, correct me if I'm wrong, dandruff and hair loss. Yes they need copper too, but for some reason I can't find mine and need to get more.
> So zinc binds with calcium right? And alfalfa is high in calcium right? So they get 1 flake alfalfa and 1 flake orchard grass twice a day plus free range grazing on 5-6 acres but it's mostly dry and brown except for some summer weeds. So let's just estimate with the horse and 5 goats everyone is getting about 1/4-1/3 alfalfa 1/4-1/3 orchard and 1/3-1/2 grazing for their daily rations. I don't feel my alfalfa is to high to be binding the zinc as much as I feel maybe the field is to dry to provide enough zinc? I need to get replamin too. Just waiting on a confirmation on my house refi before I spend any more money this week. Am I feeding to much alfalfa?
> 
> The herd in 2 oberhasli does about 6 and 8 year. And 3 boer does about 7-8 month, 10 months and about 2 years old (give or take a few months). And one 1 horse, male castrated about 10 or 12 years old


Do you have hard well water?

Have you confirmed your goats do not have lice or mites?

Mine struggled with both copper and zinc deficiency, copper causes the hair loss and zinc the dry skin from whah I've seen.

I used Zinpro and copper bolus. However I have a good friend who used TruCare4 and it cleared up zinc and copper issues simultaneously.

Do you offer loose minerals? If so, what brand?

These questions may help give the thread creator @mariarose get a better idea on what she wants to recommend.


----------



## CCCSAW

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Do you have hard well water?
> 
> Have you confirmed your goats do not have lice or mites?
> 
> Mine struggled with both copper and zinc deficiency, copper causes the hair loss and zinc the dry skin from whah I've seen.
> 
> I used Zinpro and copper bolus. However I have a good friend who used TruCare4 and it cleared up zinc and copper issues simultaneously.
> 
> Do you offer loose minerals? If so, what brand?
> 
> These questions may help give the thread creator @mariarose get a better idea on what she wants to recommend.


Sorry I must have removed the part about external parasites when I was editing. No I have not seen signs of lice or mites I have looked them over well. I already know my loose mineral is deficient all the way around as it's mostly a salt mix (purina goat mineral). They do need copper, but the one oberhasli in particular right now if I run my hand down her back she is losing hand fills at a time. I just wasn't too make sure I get everyone on the right track and since I'm already making a shopping list I want to make sure I have it as complete as possible.


----------



## CCCSAW

Oh and no the well water is not hard at all.


----------



## whitejerabias

Purina Wind and Rain Fly Control? I've been recommended Purina Wind and Rain, but the only one available at my local SC is the fly control. The person said that that's the only one available in the NE.


----------



## healthyishappy

whitejerabias said:


> Purina Wind and Rain Fly Control? I've been recommended Purina Wind and Rain, but the only one available at my local SC is the fly control. The person said that that's the only one available in the NE.


That's not the best but if its the only thing you got........


----------



## mariarose

CCCSAW said:


> I already know my loose mineral is deficient all the way around as it's mostly a salt mix (purina goat mineral).


That's not a salt mix, but it is a salty mineral, saltier than I prefer. The ratio of copper to zinc is less than 1:3, so you are right,you do need more zinc. One way to do this is to also offer a sheep mineral that has a decent amount of zinc in it. That's what I ended up doing this past Winter. They could choose between the regular minerals if they felt they needed more copper, and the sheep minerals if they felt they needed more zinc.
Purina makes a good sheep mineral.


CCCSAW said:


> if I run my hand down her back she is losing hand fills at a time.


 To me this means she's finally getting enough copper and is releasing the old coat.


----------



## mariarose

whitejerabias said:


> Purina Wind and Rain Fly Control?


People above have very kindly posted tags of that mineral so you can see the GA and the ingredients.

I know many people on TGS have used it and been happy with it. It is certainly better than no minerals at all. Let me know if you have any other questions for me, OK?


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> To me this means she's finally getting enough copper and is releasing the old coat.


Oh!!!
My doe is doing this too, does that mean she is probably really shedding the old hair out a lot now?
I just noticed it happening about two weeks ago. Lots of hair all over her.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> My doe is doing this too, does that mean she is probably really shedding the old hair out a lot now?


While this is not the only reason for hair loss, it is a common one when there's been a known deficiency and people are working on fixing it.


----------



## goathiker

Um, wow, you guys are running down a rabbit hole with no end in sight. 

Let's address a few things. When you can't get your goat minerals, give deer minerals for a bit. Antlermax is a good one. The minerals look low, but they an organic chelation.

Cargill's, sourced in China, no inspections, irradiated upon entry. Purina's less toxic.

Copper/ zinc ratio: never more than 1/3 cu/zc. 

Bald goat syndrome COPPER not zinc. Zinc causes discolored spectacles around the eyes. 

US geological surveys: 11 core samples per state taken on the top of hills. They were looking for plutonium in the' 70's. Is not, nor ever has been related to farm soil. 

D3 how many are supplementing this? Calcium can't move without it: if it's not there to block? Might try getting the calcium out of the way first. 

Cobalt- nobody can get it. Find a Do it Best hardware or order it. Yes, it's expensive to order but nothing else takes it's place unless you want to give B12 tablets daily. This has nothing to do with what is in your soil or feed. It is to counteract the internal bleeding that roundworm causes daily. 

I could go on with more peeves but, they would stray from minerals. Oh wait AC is kind of a mineral. It causes ammonia poisoning with long use. That's why wethers don't live as long on some farms. 

Just remember, the more you give your does, the less ability the kids will have to cope. 


Oberhasli goats are notoriously copper deficient. 
Toggenburg goats are notoriously B12 deficient. 
Nigerian goats are prone to calcium stones and over eating. 
Boers are prone to calcium phosphate stones, hoof rot, and iodine deficiency. 
Nubian goats are prone to pneumonia, dampness, and digestive disorders. 
1 in 4 Alpine's are insane. Some people like this :shrug: 
LaMancha goats are all across the board lol a mix of almost everything.


----------



## NigerianNewbie

:up: :ty:


----------



## mariarose

goathiker said:


> Zinc causes discolored spectacles around the eyes.


To be more clear, and excess of zinc can suppress copper, and a lack of copper can cause the spectacle look? That is what you told @Jessica84 earlier


----------



## mariarose

Chelation is a great thing to look for, but if the levels aren't there, chelation won't make them there.

Onyx actually WORKS for me, Purina Wind and Rain, Storm does not. When I use it, I have to pour in the extra supplementation. I recently looked over what records I have and reached the conclusion I spend far more time and money correcting the problems when I feed it, so it is now out of my rotation. Still a good, easily found mineral and some herds do very well on it. But not mine.

Since copper is so much more readily supplemented than is zinc, I will continue to provide greater zinc choices. so as not to dip below that 1:3 ratio.

I look for the D-3 level in everything I get. That I consider vital.

I can get cobalt through some feed stores. Rural King had them when I was last there, and some of the TSC stores, too. Jill has said before that iodine and salt are vital for cobalt to be utilized. This would make an iodized cobalt salt block the ideal way for it to be fed if the levels are inadequate otherwise. Since before the value of cobalt supplementation was figured out, domesticated ruminants could not be successfully raised in some areas, but could be raised in others, this is a strong indication that the soil levels really do matter.

AC poisoning is a thing. People would be better off using it more judiciously, or I should say, Goats would be better off if their people would use it more judiciously. My minerals don't have it, my feed does not have it. I have it on hand, but I've never used it. Concentrating on correct ratios and on not banding too early and giving plenty of salt will do more to prevent stones than AC will.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Unfortunately, dangerous to others, not usually the people with a little knowledge.

I don't agree that entire breeds can be encapsulated like that, but I certainly laughed at the very specific, 1 in 4 Alpines are insane part.

Thank you for your peeves, Jill. Drop in any time.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> Chelation is a great thing to look for, but if the levels aren't there, chelation won't make them there.
> 
> Onyx actually WORKS for me, Purina Wind and Rain, Storm does not. When I use it, I have to pour in the extra supplementation. I recently looked over what records I have and reached the conclusion I spend far more time and money correcting the problems when I feed it, so it is now out of my rotation. Still a good, easily found mineral and some herds do very well on it. But not mine.
> 
> Since copper is so much more readily supplemented than is zinc, I will continue to provide greater zinc choices. so as not to dip below that 1:3 ratio.
> 
> I look for the D-3 level in everything I get. That I consider vital.
> 
> I can get cobalt through some feed stores. Rural King had them when I was last there, and some of the TSC stores, too. Jill has said before that iodine and salt are vital for cobalt to be utilized. This would make an iodized cobalt salt block the ideal way for it to be fed if the levels are inadequate otherwise. Since before the value of cobalt supplementation was figured out, domesticated ruminants could not be successfully raised in some areas, but could be raised in others, this is a strong indication that the soil levels really do matter.
> 
> AC poisoning is a thing. People would be better off using it more judiciously, or I should say, Goats would be better of if their people would use it more judiciously. My minerals don't have it, my feed does not have it. I have it on hand, but I've never used it. Concentrating on correct ratios and on not banding too early and giving plenty of salt will do more to prevent stones than AC will.
> 
> A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Unfortunately, dangerous to others, not usually the people with a little knowledge.
> 
> I don't agree that entire breeds can be encapsulated like that, but I certainly laughed at the very specific, 1 in 4 Alpines are insane part.
> 
> Thank you for your peeves, Jill. Drop in any time.


Have you ever tried Sweetlix? Just curious.


----------



## mariarose

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Have you ever tried Sweetlix? Just curious.


Sweetlix MeatMaker 16:8 is one of the minerals I have out at the moment. I don't have access to it often, so when I see it, I'll pick up a bag even if I don't need more mineral at that particular moment. I probably use it once a year.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> Sweetlix MeatMaker 16:8 is one of the minerals I have out at the moment. I don't have access to it often, so when I see it, I'll pick up a bag even if I don't need more mineral at that particular moment. I probably use it once a year.


What minerals do you currently offer?


----------



## mariarose

https://www.sweetlix.com/products/60717-meat-maker-168-mineral/
And
http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73
And a small sample of
https://www.atwoods.com/ranch-pro-breeder-mineral-bag-50-lbs.html That @GoofyGoat sent me to try out.

But all they want right now is the Selenium Salt Block.


----------



## goathiker

Yeah, I was in a weird mood. The problem with soil levels is that you can have the highest of levels and if the ph is off or the other needed blocks aren't there none of it will be bioavailable. 


Many mineral mixes and feeds contain sodium selenite for selenium. Since only about 10% can even be absorbed 10 ppm of seleplex selenium yeast contains more useable selenium than 70 ppm of sodium selenite. 

When nutrients block each other a lot of it is because they both need the same partner. Zinc and copper both need phosphorus to move through the blood stream so when the molecules are taken up they are fighting over who's going to stick to the phosphorus molecules. Copper bolus ensures that there is always a copper molecule whenever a phosphorus molecule is there. 
Feeding chelations by steps this process because the minerals are already cleaved to the partnering molecules. Thus, no sorting and no blocking.


----------



## whitejerabias

I'm excited! I just picked up Sweetlix Meat Maker 16:8 (btw, anyone know what that ration means?), and we'll as some Redmond salt blocks and I plan to get the big green selenium block from TSC next time I am up there. I think our current minerals have gone stale because they aren't seeming to eat them. Going to pick them up and stir them and see if they will nibble any more before ditching them entirely (I liked @mariarose 's idea of sprinkling the stale minerals on the earth) but also going to put out the Sweetlix alongside.

Just bolused with copper so the kids all definitely got 4g and the mamas more or less got 6. I will repeat that in 3mos.

My partner accidentally got the Selenium Vit E tube instead of Replamin Plus (eye roll) and that stuff is putrid! Smells like the gross pink children's antibiotic liquid! They don't seem to like it, but we're also over me messing with them after the copper bolusing. Maybe I could top dress their feed with it?

But back to minerals: 
I just saw this Selenium Vit E antioxidant supplement for horses at the feed store, what do you think about offering that as an additional free choice supplement?

Also, wonder what is the level of iron that is too much and binds to the copper? And so, what do you do if you have to give them Red Cell?


----------



## mariarose

The 16:8 is the calcium to phosphorus levels.

I am completely unfamiliar with the pictured products.

The Selenium/E gel is fine, but it really is best to simply put it into the mouth rather than put it on the feed.

Red Cell is only supposed to be given as a medicine. So it isn't a long term thing. If they are anemic, then they need iron. However, a copper deficiency also shows up as anemia. You can know if they need more copper by other symptoms.

But the point is, don't refuse iron when iron is needed. If you have to give more copper, well so be it.


----------



## healthyishappy

I speak for sweetlix!
I tested PWR against sweetlix.
So the results..........
I have a I have a feeder that has two sides the exact same size.
I poured an even amount of sweetlix and pwr in each container.
So far I have filled up the sweetlix ( I fill it when its about 1/3 left) 4 times. Pwr has only had a small nibble! This was over a 4 week period and the sides each hold 4 cups.
I am super pleased, one of my kids was not eating minerals and I could tell because his coat was getting raggedy, now his coat is much better, his brother who was fine before shines!
My alpine doe is also improving very well. My Nigerian/alpine has lost all rust and is super shiny and smooth! Thank you copper bolus and thank you sweetlix!!!!

Disclamer: I am not saying anything against PWR but in my herd sweetlix has won.


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## Iluvlilly!

healthyishappy said:


> I speak for sweetlix!
> I tested PWR against sweetlix.
> So the results..........
> I have a I have a feeder that has two sides the exact same size.
> I poured an even amount of sweetlix and pwr in each container.
> So far I have filled up the sweetlix ( I fill it when its about 1/3 left) 4 times. Pwr has only had a small nibble!
> I am super pleased, one of my kids was not eating minerals and I could tell because his coat was getting raggedy, now his coat is much better, his brother who was fine before shines!
> My alpine doe is also improving very well. My Nigerian/alpine has lost all rust and is super shiny and smooth! Thank you copper bolus and thank you sweetlix!!!!


Where do you get the sweetlix?


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## healthyishappy

Spades said:


> Where do you get the sweetlix?


From my ifa. 
Tsc I haven't found Carrie's it, I think you could ask youtfarm and fleet to order it


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## CCCSAW

I finally got off my butt and put the purina wind and rain storm out. They still had the purina goat available. But the horse I don't know if copper deficiency shows the same in horses (balding on the nose and around eyes) but I decided it was either copper or rubbing so more minerals wouldn't hurt. My goodness, I usually see the goats get minerals at least every few days so I assume they are getting some a lot more often than that. But in the past 10 minutes since I put the wind and rain out someone has constantly been at the mineral feeder, including the horse. It's like they are all taking turns. I sorta feel bad for my 1 doe Merida right now, she just laid down next to the feeder and is literally eating the minerals. Which is a good thing I guess cuase I noticed last night she's going to need another copper bulbous soon. Suppose to get replamin tomorrow.


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## mariarose

I'm so very glad! YAY


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## Lone Wolf

I agree with staying away from Manna-pro. Have purchased their products in the past but no more. Had contamination in their product and after finally talking to them they don't care! Especially don't care for the small farmer.. My suggestion find another product than manna-pro which will more than likely be cheaper and a better product. There are many,many other products out there that are great and they actually care about our farm animals.


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## mariarose

@Lone Wolf as you are in TN, have you ever tried this one?

http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73


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## Dwarf Dad

CCCSAW said:


> I finally got off my butt and put the purina wind and rain storm out. They still had the purina goat available. But the horse I don't know if copper deficiency shows the same in horses (balding on the nose and around eyes) but I decided it was either copper or rubbing so more minerals wouldn't hurt. My goodness, I usually see the goats get minerals at least every few days so I assume they are getting some a lot more often than that. But in the past 10 minutes since I put the wind and rain out someone has constantly been at the mineral feeder, including the horse. It's like they are all taking turns. I sorta feel bad for my 1 doe Merida right now, she just laid down next to the feeder and is literally eating the minerals. Which is a good thing I guess cuase I noticed last night she's going to need another copper bulbous soon. Suppose to get replamin tomorrow.


As @mariarose says, change back and forth between quality minerals, and it will keep your goats interested. For some reason, mine don't care for the Purina Wind and Rain Sheep, that I have out because of the sheep. Or else replamin is doing a great job.


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## mariarose

For any Texas members... I don't know if many of you are hanging at TGS at the moment because you may have more important issues at hand... If you have a Palmer Feed and Supply, they have some interesting Vigortone
loose mineral mixes.

Here are the list of dealers
https://www.palmerfeed.com/contact/dealers/
Here are the Vigortone mineral mixes.
https://www.palmerfeed.com/products/category/vigortone/

Love to All Y'all!


----------



## Krystal olsen

mariarose said:


> For any Texas members... I don't know if many of you are hanging at TGS at the moment because you may have more important issues at hand... If you have a Palmer Feed and Supply, they have some interesting Vigortone
> loose mineral mixes.
> 
> Here are the list of dealers
> https://www.palmerfeed.com/contact/dealers/
> Here are the Vigortone mineral mixes.
> https://www.palmerfeed.com/products/category/vigortone/
> 
> Love to All Y'all!


What part of Texas? I'm a Texas member too! New to the goat life too!!!


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## mariarose

No, I don't live in TX. I was just telling Texas members about a feedstore and an interesting brand of loose minerals. What loose minerals do you offer?


----------



## Iluvlilly!

mariarose said:


> The best one, again imo, at TSC is this one
> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...d-rain-storm-all-season-cattle-minerals-50-lb


Is that better than this?


----------



## mariarose

Spades said:


> Is that better than this?


It IS this. This's the best one that TSC carries, and that opinion is pretty general here. That's an old link now and this wasn't a regular link back then. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Iluvlilly!

mariarose said:


> It IS this. That's the best one that TSC carries, and that opinion is pretty general here.


When i go get more mineral i have options=Purina wind and Rain All season Cattle mineral or Purina Wind and Rain Cattle mineral Fly control?mg:


----------



## mariarose

The Fly Control is a lot more expensive. A lot of people don't care for it. I've never tried it. Only the all season and the Spring Hi-Mag.


----------



## whitejerabias

mariarose said:


> The Fly Control is a lot more expensive. A lot of people don't care for it. I've never tried it. Only the all season and the Spring Hi-Mag.


What is the fly control part? I can't get the non-fly control one here.


----------



## mariarose

whitejerabias said:


> What is the fly control part?


That is the Altosid in the ingredients. If you don't want that, then perhaps switch to the All purpose Purina Cattle mineral in the green bag until they offer the regular All Season PW&R,S later on? Or if you don't mind the Altosid, go ahead and use the Fly Control. I do not know how much of that shows up in the meat and milk, really I don't.


----------



## Krystal olsen

Do you just offer open bowl of this mineral to your goats?


Spades said:


> Is that better than this?


----------



## mariarose

Krystal olsen said:


> Do you just offer open bowl of this mineral to your goats?


Well, I don't use that particular mineral because I have others available to me that I like better, but yes, an open yet sheltered feed bowl is what I use.

Do an internet image search for Loose Mineral Feeder and see what sparks your interest!
I'm not a huge fan of Pinterest, because I find them unnecessarily difficult to navigate and use. But if you like it, here is a Pinterest search
https://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?rs=ac&len=2&q=goat mineral feeder&eq=goat mineral feeder&etslf=17668&term_meta[]=goat|autocomplete|0&term_meta[]=mineral|autocomplete|0&term_meta[]=feeder|autocomplete|0


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## Iluvlilly!

Krystal olsen said:


> Do you just offer open bowl of this mineral to your goats?


Yes that is what i use!


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## mariarose

Spades said:


> Is that better than this?


@Spades I'd love to go back and fix that link, because TSC has gotten their shit together now. Any idea where I wrote that? A post # and a thread title would be awesome. I really don't want that confusion in anything I've said before.


----------



## Iluvlilly!

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads...ow-how-i-love-me-those-minerals.194612/page-2 Post number #40! Should be at the bottom of the page!


----------



## mariarose

Spades said:


> https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads...ow-how-i-love-me-those-minerals.194612/page-2 Post number #40! Should be at the bottom of the page!


Thank you for your help. The new link is in there now. I appreciate you.


----------



## Iluvlilly!

mariarose said:


> Thank you for your help. The new link is in there now. I appreciate you.


You are welcome!


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

mariarose said:


> For any Texas members... I don't know if many of you are hanging at TGS at the moment because you may have more important issues at hand... If you have a Palmer Feed and Supply, they have some interesting Vigortone
> loose mineral mixes.
> 
> Here are the list of dealers
> https://www.palmerfeed.com/contact/dealers/
> Here are the Vigortone mineral mixes.
> https://www.palmerfeed.com/products/category/vigortone/
> 
> Love to All Y'all!


Gosh darn! Too far from me


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## mariarose

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> Gosh darn! Too far from me


Well, that's fine. I'm sure you are giving a fine mineral mix anyway.

How far away IS the nearest dealer?


----------



## whitejerabias

mariarose said:


> That is the Altosid in the ingredients. If you don't want that, then perhaps switch to the All purpose Purina Cattle mineral in the green bag until they offer the regular All Season PW&R,S later on? Or if you don't mind the Altosid, go ahead and use the Fly Control. I do not know how much of that shows up in the meat and milk, really I don't.


Well we just started a bag of Sweetlix Meat Maker, but per your suggestion to switch it up I get the Purina Cattle mineral next. When you say "until they offer... later on" does that mean that the Fly Control is only seasonal?


----------



## mariarose

whitejerabias said:


> When you say "until they offer... later on" does that mean that the Fly Control is only seasonal?


In many places, yes. It is seasonal, as is the Springtime Hi-Mag.. IMO. if you are going to spend the money for the Fly Control, I'd rather stick with the Sweetlix.


----------



## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> For any Texas members... I don't know if many of you are hanging at TGS at the moment because you may have more important issues at hand... If you have a Palmer Feed and Supply, they have some interesting Vigortone
> loose mineral mixes.
> 
> Here are the list of dealers
> https://www.palmerfeed.com/contact/dealers/
> Here are the Vigortone mineral mixes.
> https://www.palmerfeed.com/products/category/vigortone/
> 
> Love to All Y'all!


RATS! They're only in West Texas 8+ hours away


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

mariarose said:


> How far away IS the nearest dealer?


3 hours 10 mins away from me


----------



## Iluvlilly!

mariarose said:


> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-wind-rain-storm-all-season-75-complete?cm_vc=-10005





mariarose said:


> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/redmond-rock-all-natural-mineral-salt-7-lb?cm_vc=-10005





mariarose said:


> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...-cobalt-iodized-salt-block-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005


 I was wondering since i have Purina wind and rain! Do i/ Should i get the other two products to go with Purina Wind and Rain or not?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Spades said:


> I was wondering since i have Purina wind and rain! Do i/ Should i get the other two products to go with Purina Wind and Rain or not?


You will still need a salt source, so yes, one or both of the above products.


----------



## Iluvlilly!

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> You will still need a salt source, so yes, one or both of the above products.


So i can get both products + Purina Wind and Rain? Anything else?


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## mariarose

@Spades thanks for allowing me to clear this up.

The other 2 items are salt licks. I always recommend at least 1 salt lick with the minerals, but which one will depend upon the mineral mix you have and what your goats are needing.

IMO the best salt products in the US, bar none, are Redmond. If you have a Redmond dealer, I REALLY do recommend them. If you don't, then others can be made to work.

TSC carries (in many areas) an equine lick and a hunting lick, called Trophy Rock. But if you DO have a regular dealer, then here are some other offerings
https://www.redmondagriculture.com/products/
Dealer locator...
https://www.redmondagriculture.com/dealers/
Most people are happy with a cobalt block. Cobalt blocks are iodized and that is good. Redmond makes a terrific cobalt block, but other blocks are good, too. I have to have a selenium block.
Currently, I have a Trophy Rock, Cobalt block, Selenium block, and an EDDI block.
https://www.doitbest.com/products/759243
These are sold in different places, and when I'm in one of those stores, I just pick up another block. I'm also always on the lookout for new mineral mixes to try.

So yes. You do need at least 1 saltlick as well as your mineral mix. If you can ONLY choose one, I recommend a sea salt lick from Redmond (Trophy Rock is a Redmond product.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> @Spades thanks for allowing me to clear this up.
> 
> The other 2 items are salt licks. I always recommend at least 1 salt lick with the minerals, but which one will depend upon the mineral mix you have and what your goats are needing.
> 
> IMO the best salt products in the US, bar none, are Redmond. If you have a Redmond dealer, I REALLY do recommend them. If you don't, then others can be made to work.
> 
> TSC carries (in many areas) an equine lick and a hunting lick, called Trophy Rock. But if you DO have a regular dealer, then here are some other offerings
> https://www.redmondagriculture.com/products/
> Dealer locator...
> https://www.redmondagriculture.com/dealers/
> Most people are happy with a cobalt block. Cobalt blocks are iodized and that is good. Redmond makes a terrific cobalt block, but other blocks are good, too. I have to have a selenium block.
> Currently, I have a Trophy Rock, Cobalt block, Selenium block, and an EDDI block.
> https://www.doitbest.com/products/759243
> These are sold in different places, and when I'm in one of those stores, I just pick up another block. I'm also always on the lookout for new mineral mixes to try.
> 
> So yes. You do need at least 1 saltlick as well as your mineral mix. If you can ONLY choose one, I recommend a sea salt lick from Redmond (Trophy Rock is a Redmond product.


I really like Redmond loose salt (called their goat mineral)


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## mariarose

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I really like Redmond loose salt (called their goat mineral)


Yes, that loose salt can be seen on the product page I linked to. Redmond Rules!


----------



## BethJ

Okay, so I've read this entire post, not in one sitting, so I may have forgotten some stuff mentioned at the start. I hope I'm not being too repetitive.

I'm wanting to upgrade my goats loose mineral. I have problems with cooper defenceny and selenium. I' ve been giving replamin 5cc once a week for about 2 months now but I'm not sure I've corrected the selenium problem yet, tails are still a little crooked. I've also done copper bolus and coats are looking much much better now! I have not given additional selenium yet but definately willing to try it. Wanted to see what the replamin would do first. I have well water with what I think is calcium in it. It builds up on shower heads and in pots where water has been boiled. Comes off if you soak in vinegar. No sulfer smell or orange staining in the showers although toilet bowls are kinda orange.

Anyway, loose minerals.. I have the option of purchasing sweetlix meat maker 16:8 and Cargill right now onyx which seem to be considered by most to be pretty good minerals. Also could get wind rain and storm or wheathershed, also good choices!

Right now I'm leaning towards sweetlix for the higher selenium but I'm wondering if there are things that make the other brands higher quality in general since I could just supplement selenium by itself (and will likely need to to that anyway).

Opinions appreciated!

Edit: I guess I should also mention they have 24 hour access to mixed grass pasture. Right now we are offering timothy/orchard hay and have recently transitioned from an all stock sweet feed to just 16% 'goat pellets'. They just get about a cup or so a day to supplement the forage/hay. Goats range from 6 months to ~3 years old. No one is in milk, just pets at the moment.


----------



## mariarose

Unlike the other national brands, the Onyx formulations vary somewhat over the nation, to reflect the differences found over the nation. What does the tag say where you are?

I'd be inclined, off the cuff, to go with the highest in selenium first of all. You can always switch it up later as I do amongst my best choices. No mineral mix is perfect, or "all you need" and goats learning that they can still consume something different benefits them should you ever not be able to get what they are used to.

But your weather needs to be considered too. Unfortunately, I can no longer get the Onyx, and that was the only mineral mix that was able to stand up to the horrible wetness of last winter and spring. Sweetlix does the least well, but it is better than it used to be. They started adding some weatherizing.

Overall, I find it easier to supplement copper than to supplement selenium.

But what do YOU want to start trying first?

Currently, I have 2 different mineral mixes out. (also a few different salts) My favourite regional mix that is very high in selenium, and Sweetlix MeatMaker. I've dropped the Purina Wind and Rain, Storm completely out of my rotation because repeated trials have shown me it just won't do the job I need it to do. FAR too much extra supplementation. But other people are having a great deal of success with it.

I think you can just choose one for a single time, and then try another one, and then another one. You are very fortunate to have so many good choices (as am I, and I know that!)


----------



## BethJ

@mariarose thanks for your input! I'm basing the GA of each product on what's listed online. The sweetlix and onyx are not currently on the shelf but the owner is willing to order them for me. She is also looking into a locally made mineral mix but I haven't heard back on that yet. I was trying to decide which one I wanted so I can tell her which to order. I suppose asking for both is not out of the question, just a bit expensive.

I'm scared of overdoing the selenium and so I'm having trouble deciding which extra supplement to use. Assuming I continue replamin plus 5cc weekly and offer sweetlix free choice, would adding BoSe injections be too much? Is selenium salt or selenium gel a better option? I do like the idea of goats dosing themselves as needed! Can my vet test for selenium deficiency to see if I really need BoSe?


----------



## mariarose

I will only ever use Bo-Se or similar as an emergency measure. If you want this to be a regular supplementation, then I can't help you on that.

IMO, you are, with your bent tails, not at Bo-Se level yet. No liver biopsy needed for that assessment.

How WONDERFUL that you have a store willing to order things for you. Benefit of not being forced to go to a chan store!

If it isn't terribly rainy for you, then order the Sweetlix first and go from there. If you are being flooded and your mineral feeders are floating away before your goats can get to them, order the Weathershed or the Onyx.

The W&R,S you'll probably always be able to get, because of all of your choices it is the most ubiquitous. So I'd give it a miss on the first go-round.

There is little reason to get the selenium gel, if you are giving the Replamin. Since you need a good salt anyway (or more than one) my vote is for the selenium salt. Redmond makes a GREAT one, selenium and natural sea salt combined! Can you ask your store owner/manager to order Redmond products?

How's that for cutting through the hesitation?

Really, all the ones you mentioned are terrific choices. I have my preferred ones, of course. But all are a terrific start. So, I'd just choose and observe... and choose another and observe... etc.

And when you find out about your local offering, please come back an tell us about it.... PLEEEEEEASE?????


----------



## mariarose

I forgot to mention, a glug of vinegar in your goats' water will help neutralize that inorganic calcium.

Yes, we want the goats to get calcium, very important. But hard water is not the most helpful sources, and it can mess up the other mineral uptakes.

Doesn't have to be expensive organic Bragg's With Mother. Plain old white distilled (cheap) vinegar will provide a safe acid to counteract the base calcium in the hard water.

Of course, if you WANT it to be the expensive organic Bragg's With Mother, go for it.


----------



## mariarose

BethJ said:


> I've read this entire post


I'm deeply appreciative of your participation and of you taking the time to read this. I know it is long but we've tried to keep it pertinent and nonrepetitive. Thank you.


----------



## BethJ

Okay, thanks for clearing up to Replamin +/- the selenium gel. I couldn't figure out if doing both was a good idea. I like the suggestion of putting out the Redmond selenium salt and seeing how they react to it! At this point I think I'll purchase the sweetlix and see what happens.

As for the local option. The store owner told me it's made by Reedy fork organics, who btw, is also a Redmond salt distributor. I've heard of reedy fork and seen their feed bags here and there but haven't researched them much yet. I did just do a quick search of their website and couldn't see anything that looked like it could replace my loose minerals, although some of the supplements sounded interesting. Now I'm curious to see if they offer some other loose mineral blend that is not on their website. I will update when I find out more! I haven't looked at every product yet since..I'm at work and lunch is almost over!

https://www.reedyforkfarm.com/

Thanks again @mariarose!

Edit: So, it looks like reedy fork uses/distributes fertrell minerals. I don't know anything about Fertrell. I wonder if they use fertrell/redmond/etc to make their own unique mineral blends? Will try to find out more..


----------



## BethJ

They have an organic 16% goat sweet feed that the website recommends feeding 'free choice'. Does that seem strange? I think my girls would eat way too much I left something like that out!

https://www.reedyforkfarm.com/shop/animals/organic-livestock-feed/goat-feed/organic-goat-feed/


----------



## mariarose

https://www.reedyforkfarm.com/

Thanks again @mariarose!

Edit: So, it looks like reedy fork uses/distributes fertrell minerals. I don't know anything about Fertrell. I wonder if they use fertrell/redmond/etc to make their own unique mineral blends? Will try to find out more..[/QUOTE]


BethJ said:


> They have an organic 16% goat sweet feed that the website recommends feeding 'free choice'. Does that seem strange? I think my girls would eat way too much I left something like that out!
> 
> https://www.reedyforkfarm.com/shop/animals/organic-livestock-feed/goat-feed/organic-goat-feed/


Well, THAT website was an exercise in frustration!!!!!!!!

Thank you for posting it, but if I was in a position to order from them, I think I'd pass.... Wow.

I know they are a dealer for other companies, but I'm finding it difficult to believe that those other companies are portraying themselves as irresponsibly and scantily as that family farm is portraying them...

Not a Guaranteed Analysis anywhere to be seen. No where. Fertrel would not do that to themselves.

Also. NO sweetfeed should ever be given free choice. Also. I looked at the soy free formulation and saw something weird. "...for dairy..." and the number 1 ingredient? Corn. Nothing that is formulated for pouring out milk is going to have corn as the first (biggest) ingredient. Because corn won't make milk. The fact that it has "organic" in front of "corn" only means they've learned to jump on the organic hype, because "organic corn" doesn't make milk either. It can't.

Insist on a guaranteed analysis because all these people seem to want to do is ride the "because we say it's wonderful" bandwagon.

Sheesh that got under my skin.

"organic corn" #1 good for dairy... I don't THINK so!

My ruffles are still feathered. How stupid do they think we are???

ANALYSIS, PEOPLE!!!!

@BethJ NONE of the above was directed at you. Please know that.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

mariarose said:


> Since you need a good salt anyway (or more than one) my vote is for the selenium salt. Redmond makes a GREAT one, selenium and natural sea salt combined!


Is it red edge? i really want to order some of that soon! I found a really cheap 5 lb bag of LOOSE Himalayan salt for 1.50$ (marketed for people) at home goods. Is it the same thing as the Himalayan salt in the block marketed for livestock, or does that have added vitamins and minerals? 
Also, wanted to share some experiences I had today that had to do with minerals. Here goes...
I was at the feed store today, and there was a lady there, who apparently owned goats, and was talking about how she has had so many kids die this year, and have mammas abort, and I butted in the conversation, and go, " Could I see some pictures of your goats?" And just as I thought, they really needed minerals, so i said "follow me" and gave her the brand new bag of cargill I just bought, gave her the replamin I had just bought, and gave her the copper boluses I had just bought (Yes i GAVE it to her for FREE, and yes, I am soo lucky that my local feed store carries all those things!) Got a peice of paper, wrote down the link to this site, how to give a loader dose of replamin,then once weekly, and giving minerals free choice, and wrote her the instructions on how to give copper boluses, and bought her a pill popper gun, and said "If you do everything i said to on here, you wont lose any more goats, and they will look alot better" I felt so bad for those goats, but at least I know I tried to help someone today, and I hope she does everything i told her to do.  Hopefully we will have a new member soon!

And, I also asked if they had a cobalt block, and the manager goes, no but we have Hobart blocks (the brand). (doh)


----------



## mariarose

Wow... You are totally nicer than I am, @Nigerian dwarf goat 
That was SO much money! I hope the woman makes it here to thegoatspot.net

Hobart=Cobalt... Yeah, I get it!


----------



## mariarose

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> Is it red edge?


No, I was referencing this...
https://www.redmondagriculture.com/products/trace-mineralized-selenium-90/


Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> I found a really cheap 5 lb bag of LOOSE Himalayan salt for 1.50$ (marketed for people) at home goods. Is it the same thing as the Himalayan salt in the block marketed for livestock, or does that have added vitamins and minerals?


That's a great price. I don't blame you at all for buying it. Far as I know, that is just ground up Himalayan salt. I personally prefer Redmond salt out of Utah, but it isn't that cheap!


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

mariarose said:


> Wow... You are totally nicer than I am, @Nigerian dwarf goat


I just felt so bad for her goats. if you would have see them, you would have felt just as bad. They are really skinny too, but I thing that she needs to focus on minerals, then think about gaining weight to her goats THEN she can think about breeding. Im sure they have bad worms, but if she signs up for TGS, she will be helped with that.



mariarose said:


> That's a great price. I don't blame you at all for buying it. Far as I know, that is just ground up Himalayan salt. I personally prefer Redmond salt out of Utah, but it isn't that cheap


I would be giving both. I figured since it is so cheap ther was no hurt for me to ask, and we are going up to home goods today, so I will pick it up!


----------



## whitejerabias

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> gave her the replamin I had just bought


That was a really nice act of kindness and support! Great job.

But also, how did you get your local store to carrying Replamin? Nowhere around me carries it, I thought that you could only buy it online.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

whitejerabias said:


> But also, how did you get your local store to carrying Replamin?


Our town is big with 4-H kids, so if one of em ask for something they carry it. I am lucky that some kid asked for her show heifers so she wouldnt have to pack minerals for show time! Now they just keep carrying it!


----------



## GoofyGoat

@mariarose

I'm not sure if this is any good but thought I'd put it out there to see if it might be a useable supplement..it's vitamin E, Selenium and Zinc granules for horses. Opinion?


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

@mariarose is the @ sign not working?
Before you answer my question, please answer @GoofyGoat first.

Is this mineral any good? I found it this mornin at the feed store. They also might carry sweetlix for me! They will get back w/ me tomorrow so we will see. THey are awesome, they carry replamin, copper boluses, and Cargill onyx (and all the others, gold, silver etc)


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> @mariarose is the @ sign not working?
> Before you answer my question, please answer @GoofyGoat first.
> 
> Is this mineral any good? I found it this mornin at the feed store. They also might carry sweetlix for me! They will get back w/ me tomorrow so we will see. THey are awesome, they carry replamin, copper boluses, and Cargill onyx (and all the others, gold, silver etc)
> 
> View attachment 161199
> View attachment 161197


I don't care for it. Bad ingredients list, low copper, lower side of selenium, weird copper to phosphorous ratio... not a fan.

I think it's the ingredients list that really gets to me.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

What are good levels of copper, zinc, selenium etc


----------



## healthyishappy

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> is the @ sign not working?
> Before you answer my question, please answer @GoofyGoat first.


Nope, it's not.


----------



## mariarose

@GoofyGoat I've never used that product before. If you choose to use it, maybe start with very small amount and see if it does what you want it to do.Maybe only on a single animal, too. Then decide from there?


----------



## mariarose

@Nigerian dwarf goat sometimes the @ sign seems to work (like you calling me worked) and sometimes it doesn't seem to work (like when goofygoat tried)

If I had a choice, I'd choose the Sweetlix or the Onyx over that one. Now, maybe your herd would do just fine on it, but in my herd, I'd have to do so much extra supplementing that I'd be money ahead going with a different mineral.

I'll be right back, my husband needs help. Sorry.


----------



## mariarose

OK, I'm back.

The calcium to phosphorus ratio is meant for animals that are on a high phosphorus diet. A lot of regular grass pasture, regular grass hay, perhaps even a lot of corn for fattening (you know, the usual end of beef cattle) Corn is for fattening, not for longevity...

So with this mineral, you should not give any alfalfa, or any other feed than has a significant amount of calcium.

I don't like to see that much of an oxide presence in my ingredients. Oxides are cheap and mostly ineffectual. Yes, they have a place (copper boluses, which is why boluses are so safe) but that place isn't in my loose mineral mix.

So, with ineffectual ingredients, it is made worse by the low levels in the Guaranteed analysis!

So, If I had a choice, I'd pass.

Purina Wind and Rain, Storm, has better levels, and MUCH better ingredients.

But since you have a choice, you'd be happier with the Sweetlix MeatMaker or the Onyx.


----------



## mariarose

As for what are good levels... I like the levels found in this thread for my favourite mineral (Co-op Supreme), Onyx, and Sweetlix MeatMaker. I like the Purina less well, but I still find them superior to the one above.

The superiority of Onyx is in the copper level. The superiority of the Sweetlix is in the cobalt level. The superiority of the Supreme is in everything else, especially selenium.


----------



## mariarose

Morning Star Farm said:


> Can you mix them together to get the best of both?


I'd MUCH rather put them in a rotation, or as separate offerings so they can choose, rather than mess up the GAs by mixing the 2 of them


Morning Star Farm said:


> Also, I have a way to get individual bulk minerals. What would you recommend as a guideline for mixing my own?


Oh, I don't have any sort of recommendation for that level of chemistry. I'm not that good at math or science. I can see a value to putting them out for them to choose... but mixing them into a custom mixture, no. I can't help.


Morning Star Farm said:


> I've read this whole thread too and it's got so much great information.


That is extremely kind of you to say. I'll continue to try to keep this a valuable resource to the site.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

What about his one?


----------



## mariarose

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> What about his one?


That's a good salt. Not a good mineral.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

If I was able to be getting sweetlix, then I would be taking purina wind and rain out and giving cargill onyx and Sweetlix. Question, if sweetlix is high in cobalt, should I take the cobalt lick away? Would the goats overdose? Can they overdose?

How do you know that isn't a good mineral? I want to know this stuff. What is wrong with the minerals. What is good about the salt?

At the moment, I am looking for a good mineral block for my cows. They waste loose minerals, they don't eat them, but they will sit there and lick at a block all day. So, I guess what I'm asking for is a good mineral block.they have rough enough tongues for the blocks. I have given them cargill and purina wind and rain, and they seem to forget about it after about 3-4 days. I'm not wastin cargill On them, it's too expensive. I bought that licking good block pictured above, a few weeks ago so when that's gone, hopefully I can get a good one for them. Is there any good blocks at tsc? 
Thank you so much @mariarose you are the best!!(highfive)


----------



## mariarose

Quick incomplete answer to @Nigerian dwarf goat about the block.

In your case, for your cattle, I'd offer the block you showed me full time, and only put out a few days of the Purina Wind and Rain, Storm (about the time you notice they lose interest, that amount. Then next week, I'd put out the same amount.

Cattle like their minerals fresh too!

The reason I suggest this is because cattle are naturally curious, they are just more laid back about it than goats are. So you coming out once a week to give them something fresh and new will excite their interest. And give them higher levels of nutrients than the salt block can.

But right now, if it is hot there, your cattle may only be interested in salt, and that is normal. In which case, this is a good salt block for them.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

I know this would all depend on your region and how much mineral is in your soil and water, what you feed,etc but i want to know the difference between a "good" mineral and a "bad" mineral. How can y'all tell what is good and what is bad? Where should the levels be? I want to know what is a balanced mineral and what isn't. Maybe some examples, anything. I don't want to go to the feed store and just pick something because "I think" it is a good mineral. i want to KNOW it is a good mineral. I don't want to have to run everything by here before i buy some minerals (not that i am saying that y'all don't know, its just it slows everything down, and i will have to make another run to the store to get it). I want to learn this, not just be told what a good mineral is, I want to decide what a good mineral is by my self. I want to be able to compare 2 minerals and say. oh i like this on better because its --- is higher than this ones ---. I am hungry for this information! I have read through all of this thread, and it has great info, so I am hoping this question will add some more good info


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

Ahh. Ok @mariarose . So why would this block be good paired with the PW&R?


----------



## mariarose

OK, Yes.

Some generalities...

That block would be good paired with the Purina, because while 60% is on the low side of a salt offering, it is still plenty of salt enough to be called a salt block. So the cattle will consume more minerals while still getting their salt. So that's a plus.

But, It IS still a salt block, and can't offer all the minerals that a loose mineral can. So, offering a couple days of loose minerals, fresh and made interesting by the fact that you are interested, will help make up that shortfall.

Why the Purina? You'd already said you won't give the cargill Onyx. That leaves the Purina, doesn't it?

Looking at labels, and this will interest you too, @Morning Star Farm, one have of the label is ingredients. You want to see a few things here. You want to see multiple forms of the various minerals. There are lots of forms, and having at least 2 is much better than just one. You don't want to see many (if any) oxides, as explained above. You don't want to see many sulfates. A few are fine, but if you have this sulfate and that sulfate and every-other-thing sulfate, then that adds up to a LOT of sulfur. Sulfur is an antagonist of many other minerals, so don't be working against yourself there. One ingredient you do want to see is
Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide also known as EDDI. Possibly the best form of iodine there is. Zinpro is a good ingredient, Sel-plex is a good ingredient to see... Some people are really happy to see kelp in there (if you see kelp, don't mix more kelp in there like some do. In fact, don't do that anyway.) Mineral oil is there for weather proofing. Don't be afraid of it. Molasses products or by-products are very rich in minerals. That's what it's in there for, to provide some of the minerals. They won't eat enough loose minerals for that little bit of molasses to be a problem.

The above does NOT apply to protein tubs, or molasses based protein blocks. That level of molasses is much higher and you do have to consider the rest of your feed program if you choose to offer those (I do offer them, so I'm not saying they are bad)

Some generalities in the Guaranteed Analysis... Enough salt to be palatable, but not enough to be considered a loose salt. I prefer it to be around the 15%-25% mark, but I'm very flexible. I really don't choose any above 25% though.

Calcium to Phosphorus ratio needs to be around 2:1 It can go upwards. but not to excess. IMO the grazer mineral shown above was excessive. but if someone isn't feeding calcium anywhere else, It would be OK, I guess. As I said, I didn't like it. My favorite mineral is lower, like around 1.5:1, but I'm cool with that because they get some alfalfa and calcium elsewhere. People who feed a LOT of alfalfa should probably look for a 1:1 ratio mineral, or find a way to feed more grass hay. Copper to zinc ratio should be 1:3 to 1:4, depending on what the rest of the diet is. An example... I supplement a lot of extra copper because of the antagonists here, and copper is the easiest mineral for me to supplement. If I didn't have more zinc in my mineral mix than the 1:3 ratio, then the total mineral supplementation would be off, because I'd be giving so much more copper compared to the zinc. Selenium, I give the highest level I can because my goats are so selenium needy here. I don't know what your goats in your area need. If you have a lot of selenium deficiency problems, then try to find a mineral with more selenium. High magnesium minerals are often sold in the Spring when you have or are expecting lush growth. That is, literally, a seasonal thing. When you aren't lush, don't go above 4 % magnesium.

Specific levels I can't tell you what you need, because that depends on your area, your water, your feed, your individual goats... SOME places are not at all like where I live and they need different levels altogether. @fivemoremiles and I agree on so much in our goat keeping philosophies, but if his goats ate my mineral and my goats ate his, we'd have a BUNCH of dead goats. That isn't philosophy, that is hard science.

Some people use minerals that I have tried and found completely inadequate. If they work there, then that's great.

All I can tell you is I like the levels found in the ones we've discussed before, and shown before. So look at those levels, write them down or store them on your phone or device and then when you are in the store looking at something new, compare them to the tried and true. If you want to, take them home and try them.

I hope this helps you.


----------



## mariarose

Morning Star Farm said:


> What would you look for in terms of ingredients though?


I tried to give some thoughts in Post # 543 above.


----------



## mariarose

Morning Star Farm said:


> What is the specific connection between well water and minerals and is it a good one?


The deeper the well, the more inorganic minerals it usually carries. Spring water may well be worse than well water in this. Best thing, if you are testing everything, is to also test your water. The more minerals in your water, the more mineral interactions you will have to account for in your mineral mix.

Testing the soil won't do it, you also have to test the soil where ALL your feed is grown. And even this won't account for the individual needs of your goats! There is no way that each goat will be able to absorb all the minerals in the same way. So you'll STILL have to give This one more copper, and That one more selenium, and That other one more iodine and calcium...

I think you are going to a lot of trouble and STILL not getting the PERFECT mineral mix... Wouldn't it be better to go with the best one you can find, and supplement as needed, since you'll have to do that anyway???

This place has the closest thing to a PERFECT solution as I've yet to find. These ingredients are top notch, none better for utilization...
https://www.abcplus.biz/Categories.aspx?Id=Organic_Beef_Organic_Kits


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Not sure if anyone said it as simply as this. 

But for good levels you want:

at least 1600 ppm copper

3 or 4 times that amount in zinc

at least 20ppm of selenium

no more than 20-25% salt. 

A 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio is ideal.

A varied ingredients list (words like complex and multiple different forms listed on the list instead of only COPPER SULFATE or only oxides).

Hopefully that makes simple what Maria so effortlessly describes in wonderful informative detail!!


----------



## mariarose

Morning Star Farm said:


> So is city water better?


Are you asking if all city water is better than all well water? No.


Morning Star Farm said:


> If I mixed in Copper with their regular minerals and they didn't need it, they could pick out everything but the copper.


I don't see how.


Morning Star Farm said:


> I refuse to copper bolus.


I don't see why you would take such an abitrary stance and cause harm to your goats. Copper boluses are the best way to fill the liver with copper and to fight the stubborn parasites. But to each his own. I've got nothing left right now.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> Are you asking if all city water is better than all well water? No.
> 
> I don't see how.
> 
> I don't see why you would take such an abitrary stance and cause harm to your goats. Copper boluses are the best way to fill the liver with copper and to fight the stubborn parasites. But to each his own. I've got nothing left right now.


Maria I'll take over. I've convinced the most stubborn people to bolus because as you well know, I was one.

I was convinced I would never ever ever ever EVER do something that awful and scary.

And in my defense, I didn't. I've never given the bolus in a capsule or used the gun.

My fear was of the way it was given.

Once I learned of how it embeds in the stomach folds I did get even more scared, but after a lot of research and opening one up too see that they were actually pretty tiny, I wasn't as scared especially as I never heard of adverse side effects.

So I opened the capsule and they ate it in a treat of applesauce. No problem whatsoever.

Maybe if you share exactly what your resistance is I can help decipher it and maybe convince you the other way?


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

mariarose said:


> You'd already said you won't give the cargill Onyx. That leaves the Purina, doesn't it?


It is because it is so expensive and i dont want them to waste it like they usually do. But i guess i could give a little at a time. I didnt think of that



mariarose said:


> OK, Yes.
> 
> Some generalities...
> 
> That block would be good paired with the Purina, because while 60% is on the low side of a salt offering, it is still plenty of salt enough to be called a salt block. So the cattle will consume more minerals while still getting their salt. So that's a plus.
> 
> But, It IS still a salt block, and can't offer all the minerals that a loose mineral can. So, offering a couple days of loose minerals, fresh and made interesting by the fact that you are interested, will help make up that shortfall.
> 
> Why the Purina? You'd already said you won't give the cargill Onyx. That leaves the Purina, doesn't it?
> 
> Looking at labels, and this will interest you too, @Morning Star Farm, one have of the label is ingredients. You want to see a few things here. You want to see multiple forms of the various minerals. There are lots of forms, and having at least 2 is much better than just one. You don't want to see many (if any) oxides, as explained above. You don't want to see many sulfates. A few are fine, but if you have this sulfate and that sulfate and every-other-thing sulfate, then that adds up to a LOT of sulfur. Sulfur is an antagonist of many other minerals, so don't be working against yourself there. One ingredient you do want to see is
> Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide also known as EDDI. Possibly the best form of iodine there is. Zinpro is a good ingredient, Sel-plex is a good ingredient to see... Some people are really happy to see kelp in there (if you see kelp, don't mix more kelp in there like some do. In fact, don't do that anyway.) Mineral oil is there for weather proofing. Don't be afraid of it. Molasses products or by-products are very rich in minerals. That's what it's in there for, to provide some of the minerals. They won't eat enough loose minerals for that little bit of molasses to be a problem.
> 
> The above does NOT apply to protein tubs, or molasses based protein blocks. That level of molasses is much higher and you do have to consider the rest of your feed program if you choose to offer those (I do offer them, so I'm not saying they are bad)
> 
> Some generalities in the Guaranteed Analysis... Enough salt to be palatable, but not enough to be considered a loose salt. I prefer it to be around the 15%-25% mark, but I'm very flexible. I really don't choose any above 25% though.
> 
> Calcium to Phosphorus ratio needs to be around 2:1 It can go upwards. but not to excess. IMO the grazer mineral shown above was excessive. but if someone isn't feeding calcium anywhere else, It would be OK, I guess. As I said, I didn't like it. My favorite mineral is lower, like around 1.5:1, but I'm cool with that because they get some alfalfa and calcium elsewhere. People who feed a LOT of alfalfa should probably look for a 1:1 ratio mineral, or find a way to feed more grass hay. Copper to zinc ratio should be 1:3 to 1:4, depending on what the rest of the diet is. An example... I supplement a lot of extra copper because of the antagonists here, and copper is the easiest mineral for me to supplement. If I didn't have more zinc in my mineral mix than the 1:3 ratio, then the total mineral supplementation would be off, because I'd be giving so much more copper compared to the zinc. Selenium, I give the highest level I can because my goats are so selenium needy here. I don't know what your goats in your area need. If you have a lot of selenium deficiency problems, then try to find a mineral with more selenium. High magnesium minerals are often sold in the Spring when you have or are expecting lush growth. That is, literally, a seasonal thing. When you aren't lush, don't go above 4 % magnesium.
> 
> Specific levels I can't tell you what you need, because that depends on your area, your water, your feed, your individual goats... SOME places are not at all like where I live and they need different levels altogether. @fivemoremiles and I agree on so much in our goat keeping philosophies, but if his goats ate my mineral and my goats ate his, we'd have a BUNCH of dead goats. That isn't philosophy, that is hard science.
> 
> Some people use minerals that I have tried and found completely inadequate. If they work there, then that's great.
> 
> All I can tell you is I like the levels found in the ones we've discussed before, and shown before. So look at those levels, write them down or store them on your phone or device and then when you are in the store looking at something new, compare them to the tried and true. If you want to, take them home and try them.
> 
> I hope this helps you.


Yes, it helped ALOT! Thank you sooo much! Love ya!


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

Morning Star Farm said:


> Necropsies showed, that not only hadn't the bolus opened, it was covered with Calcium, Magnesium, and a few other minerals that it had attracted like a magnet. So instead of helping, it stole all the goat's minerals and killed the goat. For that reason alone, I'll never bolus.


Hmm, i would love to see that article! I have never heard that before in my life. The copper bolus will for sure open. If my hands are sweaty and i pick up a copper bulus, it will break open because the outside is super easy to dissolve when it gets wet it would get wet with stomach juices in the goat i am guessing)


----------



## mariarose

Morning Star Farm said:


> she said she would never copper bolus because sometimes the bolus never opens and they don't get any copper


That's impossible for a gelatin capsule to go through the cudding process, and then through all four stomachs and the colon, undissolved.


Morning Star Farm said:


> they don't need it and they get copper toxicity.


If they aren't showing signs of needing it, why did she give it? That's irresponsible


Morning Star Farm said:


> it stole all the goat's minerals and killed the goat.


That's just... laughable. Copper doesn't steal minerals.

I sometimes use copper sulphate free choice too. It does not fill the liver the way the boluses do, slow and safe.


----------



## mariarose

Morning Star Farm said:


> That doe was never copper bolused in her whole life.


Then again, that goat didn't need to be bolused. You are saying you won't bolus ever, even if the goat needs it.

Now, this has gotten silly. I'd like for this particular conversation to please move to a different thread, as my thread, that I've worked so hard on, is in danger of being hijacked.

Please. Start another thread for this as I don't want this filling up space here. I've worked way too hard.


----------



## mariarose

Thank you That is very kind and polite of you. If a goat is not showing signs of needing copper, it is simple to not give a copper bolus. If you do break open a bolus, don't put it in a marshmallow, as they don't digest well and the rods do end up being passed through.


----------



## mariarose

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> Question, if sweetlix is high in cobalt, should I take the cobalt lick away? Would the goats overdose? Can they overdose?


I'm sorry. I overlooked this question. 
If the cobalt salt lick is the only salt, then it is possible they'd have to get too much cobalt in order to get enough salt, especially in this heat. If they had another choice, such as a Trophy Rock, then if they did not need the extra cobalt they could go to the other salt. I prefer to have different salt choices for them, and let them decide which fits that day's needs better.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

BTW, the feed store has ordered the sweetlix, it will be in Thursday!


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

mariarose said:


> If the cobalt salt lick is the only salt,


I also have a redmond salt lick, and a trace mineral block plus the cargill and soon the sweetlix, i have weaned them of the PW&R


----------



## BethJ

Finally made it by the feed store this weekend to pick up my goods! I hope I made the right choice on selenium salt.. @mariarose any options on this salt? I didn't know until I was ordering it on the phone last week that it comes in different ppm. 30, 60 and 90 I think? I wasn't sure so just picked the 90ppm. Is that crazy high? Hopefully the they'll just take a nibble here and there if needed. I'm thinking I may buy the onyx minerals as well at some point just for variety. They also have a regular salt lick with trace minerals available.


----------



## mariarose

I don't have that one available to me, But I have a selenium 90 in block form and I do find it helps with my selenium problem. The selenium level in my regular mineral is 80 ppm, so the 2 together is very effective. The goats are still usually deficient, but not horribly so.


----------



## mariarose

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> i have weaned them of the PW&R


If you want to keep the Purina in a rotation, there is nothing wrong with that. It is a fine mineral with quality ingredients. There are so many here that use it and are extremely happy with it.

I have others I prefer, and I know through trying many times that it falls short for my needs. So I'm not getting it again unless I just can't get any of my favourites. But I am in no way steering people away from it as I have other mixes.


----------



## healthyishappy

@mariarose.
I have been working on how to look for deficiency in goats and most of it is pretty easy, rough hair, balding around eyes, ect.
But how do you see the bent tail in selenium deficiency? I can't find any pics that show me.

Also, I'm curious, I saw the debate going on about copper but i can't read any of morning stars posts. They are gone but have been replyed too. Were they deleted for the sake of your thread?


----------



## mariarose

Morning Star, unasked, deleted the posts from the thread. I appreciated the action.

I'll try to find some pics for you, I know there are several right here on this site. But my husband is needing help and I can't spend a lot of uninterupted time here. I wish I had a working camera, because I could go out and easily snap some shots that clearly show that darned tail.

I won't forget your request.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Morning Star, unasked, deleted the posts from the thread. I appreciated the action.
> 
> I'll try to find some pics for you, I know there are several right here on this site. But my husband is needing help and I can't spend a lot of uninterupted time here. I wish I had a working camera, because I could go out and easily snap some shots that clearly show that darned tail.
> 
> I won't forget your request.


Oh ok, just curious. Thanks.
Thats fine, just whenever convenient would be great. Just another thing id like to add to my notebook in my brain.


----------



## mariarose

@healthyishappy I think you'll enjoy this thread, even though it is not just on selenium.
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/mineral-fine-tuning.201291/
Post #34 of this thread is very clear about the start of the tail
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/selenium-deficiency.207171/
I'll add more links to this post as I find them, using the edit button.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> @healthyishappy I think you'll enjoy this thread, even though it is not just on selenium.
> https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/mineral-fine-tuning.201291/
> Post #34 of this thread is very clear about the start of the tail
> https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/selenium-deficiency.207171/
> I'll add more links to this post as I find them, using the edit button.


Ok I'll read it.
Thanks.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> Ok I'll read it.
> Thanks.


Both of them, I hope...


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Both of them, I hope...


Whoops, didnt see the second thread you had on there cause I just glanced at your message. Definitely read both.


----------



## Jessica84

I believe this is the tail for selenium








The doe walking away in the back








A side view.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat

yes, that is a selenium tail. @Jessica84 beautiful goats!!


----------



## mariarose

There's something about a Boer! So regal looking.


----------



## Jessica84

Thank you! But that dang goat every year has that dang flipped tail when she is bred. She drives me nuts. Last year I gave more then the 1cc per 40 on her and she still had it. But she is the only one that has it now. But I find it interesting/ educational to show that sometimes mineral needs differ not only from herd to herd but also goat to goat.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

Jessica84 said:


> Thank you! But that dang goat every year has that dang flipped tail when she is bred.


Lol. Just letting you know, like the flag on mailbox for mailman.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> It is regional, centered in TN.


Maria I have a friend in Tennessee looking for a loose mineral. Where can she buy co-op supreme?


----------



## mariarose

@NigerianDwarfOwner707 
Here is a page showing mineral info.
#96216
https://www.ourcoop.com/Livestock/Feed-Products/Goat/Goat-Products/96216MA
The bag has changed. It doesn't look like that any longer.
Here're the Co-op locations
https://www.ourcoop.com/Locations
But I know they sell other places too, because I can get it where I live and also at Stockdales in Bowling Green.
Here's the number to call and ask...
615‑793‑8011
The D-3 level, btw, is 125,000. It isn't on the GA, but they willingly answered my questions.
Super people.


----------



## mariarose

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Maria I have a friend in Tennessee looking for a loose mineral.


If your friend is not too far from Kentucky Exit 22 on I-65, Stockdales usually carries Sweetlix MeatMaker, also. Exit 22 is 22 miles from the TN line. Just throwing that out there.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> If your friend is not too far from Kentucky Exit 22 on I-65, Stockdales usually carries Sweetlix MeatMaker, also. Exit 22 is 22 miles from the TN line. Just throwing that out there.


She can get Sweetlix but I wanted to try and get her goats on the highest selenium possible.


----------



## happybleats

What we use: 
I mix one 16 oz bag of Dr Christophers Vitalerbs in 10# Thorvil Kelp. I add to this 1 oz Bringam tea and 1 oz pumpkin seed powder. Serve about 1 oz per goat.

LOH has a new blend similar to Dr C's vitalerbs coming our soon that has everything in it we will need and said to cost less too..I look forward to getting that

You can order all this off Land of Havilah 
https://landofhavilahfarm.com/loh/product/vitalerbs-kit/


----------



## mariarose

@happybleats In using this as your mineral mix and living where you do, how often do you have to supplement with anything else? I mean, copper boluses, Bo-Se injections, etc? Do you have a cobalt salt lick, etc?


----------



## happybleats

mariarose said:


> @happybleats In using this as your mineral mix and living where you do, how often do you have to supplement with anything else? I mean, copper boluses, Bo-Se injections, etc? Do you have a cobalt salt lick, etc?


We have high sulphur in our well water, which is a copper antagonist, so we battle copper def. bad. One step forward, two steps back it seems. We use an inline filter ( hose filter) from Horse Hydrator to help with the water. We do have a cobalt block out now..finally was able to get one through our TSC ( which now has several in stock if anyone needs one up this way) We do BoSe 1x a year, we Copper bolus 3-4 times a year. And we try to keep Replamin plus here for those that seem to struggle more. We keep different minerals out as we see a need, such as Gi Back on Track when we see dietary loose stool or Infection blend when we have a sick goat to prevent spread etc..basically boosting immune response.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

happybleats said:


> We have high sulphur in our well water, which is a copper antagonist, so we battle copper def. bad. One step forward, two steps back it seems. We use an inline filter ( hose filter) from Horse Hydrator to help with the water. We do have a cobalt block out now..finally was able to get one through our TSC ( which now has several in stock if anyone needs one up this way) We do BoSe 1x a year, we Copper bolus 3-4 times a year. And we try to keep Replamin plus here for those that seem to struggle more. We keep different minerals out as we see a need, such as Gi Back on Track when we see dietary loose stool or Infection blend when we have a sick goat to prevent spread etc..basically boosting immune response.


How many different mineral mixes (not herbal, the common loose mineral brands) have you tried? And have you had to supplement just as much on them?


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## happybleats

We do not use any commercial minerals to avoid GMOs the best we can but I have used New Country organics loose minerals. I had good results with this as well. Same supplements either way.


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## mariarose

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> How many different mineral mixes (not herbal, the common loose mineral brands) have you tried? And have you had to supplement just as much on them?


I had asked her to contribute what she does to give minerals while avoiding GMOs. She's not asking me for help.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> I had asked her to contribute what she does to give minerals while avoiding GMOs. She's not asking me for help.


I know. I'm curious because we have a similar water situation, and I'd like to learn this for myself. If I were to ever try and go nonGMO for my goats' minerals. Just trying to pull in some info on if this would really give my goats enough minerals.


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## happybleats

This is the new herbal blend LOH has out..I will mix this with some kelp as our loose minerals. Im pretty excited to get it in the mail and start it. 
https://landofhavilahfarm.com/loh/product/herbamins-powder/


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## goathiker

Okay, I'm laughing over here. We're feeding minerals because the soil is 75% depleted from the 1950's and you're going to fix it with plants? 
The USDA estimated that Popeye would have to eat 75 cans of spinach now, instead of just one. 

Do they guarantee the mineral content of their plants? What are you going to do about the micronutrients that plants don't uptake?


----------



## mariarose

happybleats said:


> .I will mix this with some kelp as our loose minerals.


Oh, Please keep us updated!
Do you know if they will ship overseas? I'm wondering if I can recommend this to some of our island dwelling members who can get kelp but not loose minerals, such as @Nibaga in the Philippines.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

goathiker said:


> Okay, I'm laughing over here. We're feeding minerals because the soil is 75% depleted from the 1950's and you're going to fix it with plants?
> The USDA estimated that Popeye would have to eat 75 cans of spinach now, instead of just one.
> 
> Do they guarantee the mineral content of their plants? What are you going to do about the micronutrients that plants don't uptake?


Well I would like to just add that @happybleats still supplements with "real minerals" such as copper bolusing, cobalt block, and BoSe I think.

I think all the science may be kind of kaflooey with these plants because it's hard to know. But if it works it works, if goats are thriving, I don't find a need for scientific proof.


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## mariarose

goathiker said:


> Do they guarantee the mineral content of their plants?





goathiker said:


> What are you going to do about the micronutrients that plants don't uptake?





goathiker said:


> We're feeding minerals because the soil is 75% depleted from the 1950's and you're going to fix it with plants?


Much of this was discussed on Cathy's original thread, about finding non-GMO minerals. She has been successful with her regimen and this is an easier combination for her.

I'm interested in all mineral solutions that actually work. This one does for her. I'm pretty sure it would not work for me... Very old soil and plenty of antagonists. I also don't have the same standards regarding regular minerals that she does. I'm great with the ones I've got.

So I'm not asking for myself but to gain info that can help people who can't order regular minerals... Cathy was doing me a favour telling me about something that she's been using successfully. I would not have asked her to come here with wild-eyed ideas that won't help my readers.

Everyone, if you try this, and it ends up not keeping up with your mineral needs, please don't stick with it, but find something else.
@happybleats Thank you. I'm extremely grateful for your update, and I hope you come back and give us the full skinny on this combination.


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## happybleats

goathiker said:


> Do they guarantee the mineral content of their plants? What are you going to do about the micronutrients that plants don't uptake?


I try not to do things that have no purpose. These herbs cost a good chunk of change especially feeding them to 30+ animals so if I didn't see the benefit I surely would not be buying them. I see healthier animals feeding the herbs.

Per LOH web site All herbs are Certified organic or some are wildcrafted. " We test all our Land of Havilah Herbals mixes for identity, microbials, and heavy metals." 
Im sure Kristie, owner and master herbalist, would be happy to answer any questions you may have on purity and micronutrients found in the blends.



mariarose said:


> I'm extremely grateful for your update, and I hope you come back and give us the full skinny on this combination.


 I will keep you posted


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

happybleats said:


> I try not to do things that have no purpose. These herbs cost a good chunk of change especially feeding them to 30+ animals so if I didn't see the benefit I surely would not be buying them. I see healthier animals feeding the herbs.
> 
> Per LOH web site All herbs are Certified organic or some are wildcrafted. " We test all our Land of Havilah Herbals mixes for identity, microbials, and heavy metals."
> Im sure Kristie, owner and master herbalist, would be happy to answer any questions you may have on purity and micronutrients found in the blends.
> 
> I will keep you posted


@happybleats have you tried Fir Meadow's mineral supplement? Kop Sel?

It didn't do much for me, other than offering a nice boost with some healthy herbs, but I was wondering if you tried it during your search?


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## happybleats

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> @happybleats have you tried Fir Meadow's mineral supplement? Kop Sel?


Yes I tried it. I didn't see a huge difference. I may have needed to use longer to see results but at $36, I hoping for a single blend to meet the needs. Hoping this new Product will do the job. With limited knowledge on the herb world..I feel like Im reaching out blind. Thankfully Kristie from LOH is patient LOL


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## mariarose

Oliveoil said:


> What are your thoughts on this mineral mix?


Marked.
I'll be back.


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## odieclark

Wow this is a long and awesomely informative thread! 
So I will post this mineral we are considering


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## odieclark




----------



## odieclark

mariarose said:


> Marked.
> I'll be back.


Thanks Mariarose!


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## odieclark

odieclark said:


> View attachment 163955


Any feedback on this mineral? It comes in 50# bags? We tried Sweetlix meat maker, but can't purchase that locally at all.


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## mariarose

I think it has good ingredients... I like the fact that it seems regional to your area. The high copper is out of whack with the zinc, and if you go with this you really should supply more zinc. I recommend ZinPro 40, which you can get from Jolly German. Don't get the ZinPro 4-Plex-C or the ZinPro TruCare.

Not having enough zinc will mean that not all of the copper can be utilized. Having too much zinc will mean that not all the copper will be utilized. You do want to protect that ratio. So you do need more zinc, if you decide to try this mineral.

In addition, the amount of selenium may or may not be high enough, because the goats may not be willing to eat more mineral when they have enough copper. If a selenium deficiency happens, don't use Replamin, but find another selenium source to help out.

Be absolutely certain to not allow your sheep access to this, as the copper is high.

If you can find this and you want to try it, I say go for it and please let us know what you find.

I love the fact that people are still posting on this mineral thread. Y'all are awesome.


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## odieclark

mariarose said:


> I think it has good ingredients... I like the fact that it seems regional to your area. The high copper is out of whack with the zinc, and if you go with this you really should supply more zinc. I recommend ZinPro 40, which you can get from Jolly German. Don't get the ZinPro 4-Plex-C or the ZinPro TruCare.
> 
> Not having enough zinc will mean that not all of the copper can be utilized. Having too much zinc will mean that not all the copper will be utilized. You do want to protect that ratio. So you do need more zinc, if you decide to try this mineral.
> 
> In addition, the amount of selenium may or may not be high enough, because the goats may not be willing to eat more mineral when they have enough copper. If a selenium deficiency happens, don't use Replamin, but find another selenium source to help out.
> 
> Be absolutely certain to not allow your sheep access to this, as the copper is high.
> 
> If you can find this and you want to try it, I say go for it and please let us know what you find.
> 
> I love the fact that people are still posting on this mineral thread. Y'all are awesome.


Great help! So, if we try this, do you think if we boost selenium via an annual Bo-se shot, that would be enough?


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## mariarose

I don't use Bo-Se as a regular supplement. Only as an emergency measure. I'd go with the selenium gel and/or extra linseed meal in the feed rather than a shot. But that's me.

But the annual part of that question gives me pause. You need to supplement when it is needed, not on a schedule, no matter what. Annual might be fine. However, it might not be fine. and if you stick to the annual injection and it isn't often enough, then your goats will become more and more deficient, and before you know it, you've lost an entire crop of kids.

Give selenium when you see those selenium tails, even if it isn't "time" yet.


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## odieclark

mariarose said:


> I don't use Bo-Se as a regular supplement. Only as an emergency measure. I'd go with the selenium gel and/or extra linseed meal in the feed rather than a shot. But that's me.
> 
> But the annual part of that question gives me pause. You need to supplement when it is needed, not on a schedule, no matter what. Annual might be fine. However, it might not be fine. and if you stick to the annual injection and it isn't often enough, then your goats will become more and more deficient, and before you know it, you've lost an entire crop of kids.
> 
> Give selenium when you see those selenium tails, even if it isn't "time" yet.


So we give a selenium shot after kidding. We have done that with sheep and goats. I hear what you say, and that makes sense, but we originally were told to divtgat.

What's selenium tail? I thought copper was the fish tail issue?


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## mariarose

Here is a quick search on "selenium tail"
https://www.thegoatspot.net/search/488941/?q=selenium+tail&o=date
Not the same thing at all as a fish tail, although you can often see a fish tail and a bent tail, because copper and selenium deficiencies are both extremely common


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## 21goaties

Almost all of our goats could be examples for what a selenium tail looks like. A couple of them are on Replamin Plus but I was also looking at this:

https://www.scahealth.com/p/ultracruz-livestock-selenium-yeast-supplement

The question is if they would eat it.

We use purina wind and rain storm minerals.


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## mariarose

Call Tennessee Farm Co-op and see if they'll ship anywhere close to you? That mineral mix almost completely handles my selenium needs
Here's a link
http://www.co-opfeeds.com/ourcoop08/feeds/products/goat/productDetail.aspx?fm=73
Bag no longer looks like that.


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## KNemitzfarm

I know this thread is old, but I wondering if anyone has ever tried anything like this or what they think about it


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Oh my gosh - thank goodness I saw that this is a premix! Lol.

I don’t know much about premixes.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

There’s probably a reason for that - I’m guessing they are not ideal.


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## KNemitzfarm

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> There's probably a reason for that - I'm guessing they are not ideal.


Yeah it's the first time I've seen anything like it. you're supposed to mix it with 50lbs. Of salt. I just don't have many good mineral mixes around me and this is just 5lbs, shipping shouldn't be a big deal


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

KNemitzfarm said:


> Yeah it's the first time I've seen anything like it. you're supposed to mix it with 50lbs. Of salt


I wonder what the percentage of salt is once mixed, and the guaranteed analysis of each mineral once mixed.


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## SalteyLove

@KNemitzfarm - it doesn't look like a fantastic option. You don't have any chain farm stores nearby? Tractor Supply, Southern States, Runnings, Agways? Aubochon Hardware also offers some ship to store options.


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## toth boer goats

:nod::up:


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## Mary K

Hello all! Gonna resurrect this thread again:haha: I read over this thread at least 2 or 3 times & have learned a lot from you guys, but I do have a couple other minerals to throw at you for some added guidance. But first, my update. I have been trying to stay as organic & non-GMO as possible. So I had tried New country organics goat mineral and my goats did fairly well on it, but it lacked selenium for sure as some of their tails went off to the side when they put them up. I was super excited to switch them to Land of Havilah's Herbamins powder & offer it in kelp free choice and stuck with that for a good 6 months, but found it lacking in at least the zinc area. I have been giving Replamin Plus gel once a week to all of them but it still wasn't enough. I even got a Horse Hydrator to help filter out minerals in my well water that could be contributing to mineral antagonists but still couldn't get the zinc deficiency under control for my one girl. So I added Trucare 4 minerals to top dress for her a few weeks ago & am seeing a huge improvement in her, but just cannot afford to spend all this money to keep up with it all(organic minerals and Trucare 4 are very expensive)! Which leads me to looking for your expertise. I had bought Purina Wind and Rain All Season Complete 7.5 from Tractor Supply a couple weeks ago & my goats really like it.
*Guaranteed Analysis*

*MINERAL / VITAMIN LEVEL*
Calcium (Ca), min........................................... 14.00%
Calcium (Ca), max........................................... 16.00%
Phosphorus (P), min..........................................7.50%
Salt (NaCl), min.............................................. 19.00%
Salt (NaCl), max.............................................. 21.00%
Magnesium (Mg), min.......................................1.00%
Potassium (K), min ............................................1.00%
Zinc (Zn), min..........................................3,600 PPM
Manganese (Mn), min..............................3,600 PPM
Copper (Cu), min .....................................1,200 PPM
Cobalt (Co), min.............................................12 PPM
Iodine (I), min.................................................60 PPM
Selenium (Se), min.........................................27 PPM
Vitamin A, min..................................300,000 IU/LB
Vitamin D, min....................................30,000 IU/LB
Vitamin E, min...........................................300 IU/LB
*Ingredients*
Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Processed Grain By-Products, Vegetable Fat, Plant Protein Products, Potassium Chloride, Mineral Oil, Magnesium Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Molasses Products, Iron Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Natural and/or Artificial flavor, Calcium Lignin Sulfonate, Ethoxyquin (a Preservative), Manganese Sulfate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Basic Copper Chloride, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Cobalt Carbonate.

-But I have stumbled across Purina Wind and Rain All Season 7 Availa4 that has zinpro ingredients to enhance digestibility. Sooo would that be the better choice between them 2 Purina products? Info on that:
PURINA WIND & RAIN® ALL SEASON 7 COMPLETE AV4
Beef Cattle On Pasture INTENDED FOR FEEDING BEEF CATTLE ONLY
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS CALCIUM (Ca), min..........................................................................................................15.0 % CALCIUM (Ca), max.........................................................................................................17.0 % PHOSPHORUS (P), min.....................................................................................................7.0 % SALT (NaCl), min..............................................................................................................23.0 % SALT (NaCl), max.............................................................................................................25.0 % MAGNESIUM (Mg), min......................................................................................................1.0 % POTASSIUM (K), min .........................................................................................................0.1 % ZINC (Zn), min .............................................................................................................3,168 PPM MANGANESE (Mn), min..............................................................................................1,760 PPM COPPER (Cu), min......................................................................................................1,100 PPM COBALT (Co), min..........................................................................................................106 PPM IODINE (I), min..................................................................................................................60 PPM SELENIUM (Se), min........................................................................................................27 PPM VITAMIN A, min. ......................................................................................................150,000 IU/LB VITAMIN D, min.........................................................................................................15,000 IU/LB VITAMIN E, min. .............................................................................................................150 IU/LB
INGREDIENTS: Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Molasses Products, Salt, Mineral Oil, Potassium Chloride, Magnesium Oxide, Ferric Oxide, Silica Dioxide, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Managanese Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Sodium Selenite.

-I added ingredients and the GA for easier way to compare. I personally like that the Availa 4 of course has the easier to absorb ingredients and the higher amount of cobalt, but I am not a fan of the higher salt percentage. Thoughts?
-And I must add this other mineral to the table to compare. I can get Kalmbach 2:1 Goat mineral at my local Ag store and the ingredients look pretty promising. Not sure on what the cobalt is, but I see it's in the ingredients twice. Plus I like how they have easily absorbed minerals as well.

PRODUCT CODE: 6320
FORM: Meal
APPLICATION: Formulated to be fed free choice to meat and dairy goats on pasture.
FEATURES and BENEFITS:  Formulated with chelated trace minerals to maximize absorption and utilization for optimal growth, health and reproduction.  Maintain healthy hooves to stave off foot rot.
 to promote better rumen function and fiber utilization.  Added selenium yeast to promote overall health.  Added flavors to ensure proper consumption of the mineral.
FEEDING DIRECTIONS: Feed free choice from sheltered feeders or mix into finished rations for goats to provide ½ to 1 ½ ounces per head per day. Always provide a clean, fresh source of water. Consult your Kalmbach representative concerning any questions with the use of this product.
WARNING: Contains added copper. Do not feed to sheep.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: Calcium (Ca) (Min.) ........................................ 15.50% Calcium (Ca) (Max.) ....................................... 18.50% Phosphorus (P) (Min.) ....................................... 8.00% Salt (NaCl) (Min.) ........................................... 18.50% Salt (NaCl) (Max.) .......................................... 22.00% Magnesium (Mg) (Min.) ................................... 1.50% Potassium (K) (Min.) ........................................ 1.00% Selenium (Se) (Min.) ....................................... 26 ppm Copper (Cu) (Min.) ..................................... 1450 ppm Copper (Cu) (Max.) ..................................... 1850 ppm Zinc (Zn) (Min.) .......................................... 7500 ppm Vitamin A (Min.) .............................. 300,000 USP/lb. Vitamin D (Min.) .................................. 45,000 IU/Lb. Vitamin E (Min.) ......................................... 400 IU/lb.
INGREDIENTS: Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Molasses, Processed Grain By-Products, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Chloride, Potassium Sulfate, Active Dry Yeast, Yeast Extract, Magnesium Sulfate, Vegetable Oil, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Zinc Sulfate, Iron Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Zinc Chloride, Manganese Chloride, Copper Chloride, Selenium Yeast, Sodium Selenite, and Natural and Artificial Flavors

-So I figured I will have Replamin Plus on hand to give maybe once a month to help with Selenium since it's not super high in any of these and to help with any other lack of minerals as well. Although I am curious to what @goathiker has to say about if the GA in the chelated minerals might be okay and not need to be higher since it's more readily absorbed...Thanks for looking over and hopefully I found something on the decent side to give my beloved goaties!!


> Lots of time and research=Happy and Healthy goats=Happy Owners


----------



## mariarose

For all interested in @Mary K's comparison question, I've put the numbers a little closer for ease of reading.

Purina Wind and Rain 7.5
*MINERAL / VITAMIN LEVEL*
Calcium (Ca), min........................................... 14.00%
Calcium (Ca), max........................................... 16.00%
Phosphorus (P), min..........................................7.50%
Salt (NaCl), min.............................................. 19.00%
Salt (NaCl), max.............................................. 21.00%
Magnesium (Mg), min.......................................1.00%
Potassium (K), min ............................................1.00%
Zinc (Zn), min..........................................3,600 PPM
Manganese (Mn), min..............................3,600 PPM
Copper (Cu), min .....................................1,200 PPM
Cobalt (Co), min.............................................12 PPM
Iodine (I), min.................................................60 PPM
Selenium (Se), min.........................................27 PPM
Vitamin A, min..................................300,000 IU/LB
Vitamin D, min....................................30,000 IU/LB
Vitamin E, min...........................................300 IU/LB
*Ingredients*
Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Processed Grain By-Products, Vegetable Fat, Plant Protein Products, Potassium Chloride, Mineral Oil, Magnesium Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Molasses Products, Iron Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Natural and/or Artificial flavor, Calcium Lignin Sulfonate, Ethoxyquin (a Preservative), Manganese Sulfate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Basic Copper Chloride, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Cobalt Carbonate.

PURINA WIND & RAIN® ALL SEASON 7 COMPLETE AV4
Beef Cattle On Pasture INTENDED FOR FEEDING BEEF CATTLE ONLY
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
CALCIUM (Ca), min....................................15.0 %
CALCIUM (Ca), max...................................17.0 %
PHOSPHORUS (P), min...............................7.0 %
SALT (NaCl), min.......................................23.0 %
SALT (NaCl), max.......................................25.0 %
MAGNESIUM (Mg), min..............................1.0 %
POTASSIUM (K), min .................................0.1 %
ZINC (Zn), min ...................................3,168 PPM
MANGANESE (Mn), min.........................1,760 PPM
COPPER (Cu), min................................1,100 PPM
COBALT (Co), min..................................106 PPM
IODINE (I), min.......................................60 PPM
SELENIUM (Se), min.................................27 PPM
VITAMIN A, min. ...........................150,000 IU/LB
VITAMIN D, min..............................15,000 IU/LB
VITAMIN E, min. .................................150 IU/LB
INGREDIENTS: Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Molasses Products, Salt, Mineral Oil, Potassium Chloride, Magnesium Oxide, Ferric Oxide, Silica Dioxide, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Managanese Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Sodium Selenite.

Kalmbach 2:1 Goat mineral
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Calcium (Ca) (Min.) ................................... 15.50%
Calcium (Ca) (Max.) ................................... 18.50%
Phosphorus (P) (Min.) ................................. 8.00%
Salt (NaCl) (Min.) ....................................... 18.50%
Salt (NaCl) (Max.) ...................................... 22.00%
Magnesium (Mg) (Min.) ............................... 1.50%
Potassium (K) (Min.) ................................... 1.00%
Selenium (Se) (Min.) .................................. 26 ppm
Copper (Cu) (Min.) ................................. 1450 ppm
Copper (Cu) (Max.) ................................ 1850 ppm
Zinc (Zn) (Min.) ..................................... 7500 ppm
Vitamin A (Min.) ............................. 300,000 USP/lb.
Vitamin D (Min.) ............................. 45,000 IU/Lb.
Vitamin E (Min.) .................................... 400 IU/lb.
INGREDIENTS: Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Molasses, Processed Grain By-Products, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Chloride, Potassium Sulfate, Active Dry Yeast, Yeast Extract, Magnesium Sulfate, Vegetable Oil, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Zinc Sulfate, Iron Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Cobalt Sulfate, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Zinc Chloride, Manganese Chloride, Copper Chloride, Selenium Yeast, Sodium Selenite, and Natural and Artificial Flavors


----------



## mariarose

@KNemitzfarm What did you decide to do? I was underwhelmed by the chemical forms of the minerals,(so many oxides and sulphates) but I certainly can understand shipping issues!


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## MellonFriend

Would you be able to point me to a resource that teaches me how to understand what ingredients in minerals are bad and why? I'd like to become more knowledgeable on the subject. Maybe it's on this thread somewhere and I just haven't found it.


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## mariarose

Honestly, the best source I've found is here, at TGS. It takes reading, lots and lots of reading to glean all the info you can.

Simplistically, I don't know of a "bad" form. It's just that some forms are more bio-available than other form are. If a mineral mix is filled with oxides, then it is filled with forms that are not very available. These mineral mixes are generally very cheap, but you aren't getting much good out of them. The reason why copper boluses are considered so safe is because the form of copper in them is copper oxide. That makes it good for a bolus, where you want a single dose to slowly dissolve and last for months. It isn't so great for a mineral mix where you want them to have a quicker effect.

Other things to look out for are sulphates (or sulfates), not because they are "bad" but because they are sulphur. Sulphur is necessary, but it is an antagonist to other minerals too, and if most of your minerals are in the sulphate form, then that is a lot of sulphur ultimately.

Looking for and seeing the words "chelates" and "complex" and "amino acids" and "...ides", and seeing the same mineral but in various forms over and over again in the ingredient list, is an indication that the form of the minerals in your mix is higher quality, and bioavailable.... It's also an indication that the pricetag is going to have some "high quality" numbers on it...


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## mariarose

@MellonFriend Ethylenediamine Dihydroiodide is a very good form of iodine. You will also see it referred to as EDDI

@Mary K Replamin has no iodine in it, so keep that in mind when you are making your decisions. Also, the zinc to copper ratio is close to 1:1 rather than the needed 3:1. Replamin is an excellent product. Just 2 things to plan around, not enough zinc, and not enough iodine, so that your other offerings should reflect that. If your mineral mix is high in copper but not high in zinc, then replacing the TruCare 4 with ZinPro 40 might be an answer for you. Jolly German sells it.


----------



## Mary K

@mariarose Thank you for your response! I was hoping for your thoughts on this! Yes I had seen the Replamin Plus has that almost 1:1 ratio in it which makes sense as to why it wasn't helping my doe that has a zinc deficiency. I was hoping that one of the minerals from either Purina or Kalmbach would be a good one to use instead of needing the TrueCare 4 or Zinpro. Especially since it looks like the Purina Availa4 has the Zinpro in it. So out of those 3 minerals, what is your thoughts for which one is best? The Kalmbach has more of a 4:1 zinc/copper ratio so I don't know if that would not be as good as the 3:1 ratio in the Purina brands?

As far as iodine goes, I still offer free choice kelp so hopefully that will suffice for what is lacking.


----------



## mariarose

I was repeatedly let down by the first one (regular 7.5 W&R,S) , to the point that I finally completely dropped it from my rotation. That said, many people here have success with it.

Between the other 2, my inclination is toward the Kalmbach. But that's only because I'd move away from Purina when I could.

There's no shame in trying both, and seeing if the goats have a preference...
I'm still willing to commit mineral infidelity, as you can see.

Good to know about the kelp. If it ever becomes too expensive for you, then a quality salt lick will do most of the same things for them at a greatly reduced cost (unless you have a kelp hook-up!!! LOL, just kidding!)

Do you have a Southern States nearby? There's a good cattle mineral there I used to really like.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> I was repeatedly let down by the first one (regular 7.5 W&R,S) , to the point that I finally completely dropped it from my rotation. That said, many people here have success with it.
> 
> Between the other 2, my inclination is toward the Kalmbach. But that's only because I'd move away from Purina when I could.
> 
> There's no shame in trying both, and seeing if the goats have a preference...
> I'm still willing to commit mineral infidelity, as you can see.
> 
> Good to know about the kelp. If it ever becomes too expensive for you, then a quality salt lick will do most of the same things for them at a greatly reduced cost (unless you have a kelp hook-up!!! LOL, just kidding!)
> 
> Do you have a Southern States nearby? There's a good cattle mineral there I used to really like.


I have heard good things about Kalmbach's mineral.


----------



## KNemitzfarm

mariarose said:


> @KNemitzfarm What did you decide to do? I was underwhelmed by the chemical forms of the minerals,(so many oxides and sulphates) but I certainly can understand shipping issues!


I was actually able to order sweetlix from a local elevator!


----------



## goathiker

Someone called? Lol

One thing I notice is that everyone obsessing over minerals without giving a thought about the vitamins needed to use those minerals. 
Most feeds and minerals add A&D sometimes E. They just don't bother to tell you how degradable they are. By the time that bag is 4 months old there're very few vitamin molecules left. 
Viable vitamins don't come in dry form, they are liquid and oily. 
Zinc must have vitamin D & A.

Daily required amount 5000 iu vit A, 400 iu vit D, 100 mg vit E.


----------



## mariarose

Thank you, @goathiker. That is very valuable input that we should all keep in mind, and I will going forward. I still think it OK to obsess over minerals on this focused on minerals thread, lol.

Is anyone here having trouble finding feed and minerals during this crisis? Wondering how the supply chain is holding up for y'all.


----------



## Mary K

@goathiker Sorry that was me who tagged you. From reading through this thread I seen how knowledgeable you were with how the different mineral names would work better than others so I was hoping for your thoughts on the ones I found in my above post. I am still searching for something affordable but well balanced for my herd. I understand it's not a matter of it being one answer for everyone since mineral defeciencies happen for various reasons, not just the soil not being able to provide the proper nutrients.

As far as vitamins, I was not aware of how they fade so fast when put into dry form. I would be very interested to know what you give to ensure your goats are able to get the vitamins they need? Do you offer some type of liquid in addition to dry minerals that have those vitamins in? Is it like certain minerals where whatever is not needed is passed through their system or do their bodies have to use what is given? And I thank you so much for your time to answer and the valuable knowledge you share!


----------



## GoofyGoat

mariarose said:


> Thank you, @goathiker. That is very valuable input that we should all keep in mind, and I will going forward. I still think it OK to obsess over minerals on this focused on minerals thread, lol.
> 
> Is anyone here having trouble finding feed and minerals during this crisis? Wondering how the supply chain is holding up for y'all.


I can't find sweetlix anywhere and am back to using WR&S. frustrating to be sure. I hope you're doing well @mariarose..we miss you around here!


----------



## goathiker

I will go through them later today, I'm just up with my bottle kid a lot tonight. She's had a hard time in her short 16 days of life.
She is winning however and she saved my life.


----------



## Mary K

@goathiker So sorry to hear about your little one! She sounds like a fighter though and I pray she pulls through this. No problem, she comes first and I know you're giving her the best of care . I just bought a bag of W&R 7.5 Complete a couple of weeks ago so it'll last awhile yet. Take care and when you respond back please let us know how your little one is!


----------



## goathiker

mariarose said:


> I still think it OK to obsess over minerals on this focused on minerals thread, lol.




Something else

Ingredient Type Linked To
BHA Preservative Cancer 
BHT Preservative Cancer 
TBHQ Preservative Cancer 
Ethoxyquin Preservative Liver pigmentation 
Menadione Synthetic vitamin Hemolytic anemia 
Artificial dyes Colorant Cancer 
Propylene glycol Moisturizer Heinz body anemia


----------



## odieclark

Always a need for this thread. And Mariarose. Goathiker and some of the others. So Helpful!


----------



## Angel A

goathiker said:


> Something else
> 
> Ingredient Type Linked To
> BHA Preservative Cancer
> BHT Preservative Cancer
> TBHQ Preservative Cancer
> Ethoxyquin Preservative Liver pigmentation
> Menadione Synthetic vitamin Hemolytic anemia
> Artificial dyes Colorant Cancer
> Propylene glycol Moisturizer Heinz body anemia


Great list...unrelated to goats...propylene glycol is in antifreeze and many energy drinks...it is not good for people or animals!!!! It's tough to know them all, but I have a bad habit of looking them up and seeing if it's a natural occurring form or a man made form. If ya can't read it ya probably shouldn't eat it.


----------



## Angel A

goathiker said:


> I will go through them later today, I'm just up with my bottle kid a lot tonight. She's had a hard time in her short 16 days of life.
> She is winning however and she saved my life.


How's your bottle baby??


----------



## Iris

What do you guys think about Purina goat Minerals, my goats seem to like it but I'm not sure what to look for in a good mineral.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

It did not used to be that good - now I would say it is adequate.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Goat Minerals 101


How to read a mineral label, identifying deficiencies, and choosing the best mineral for your goats!




thegivinggoat.home.blog


----------



## Goatastic43

@NigerianDwarfOwner707 Very interesting article! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## NigerianNewbie

Bump


----------



## Cedarwinds Farm

This thread is pretty old


----------



## MellonFriend

Caileigh Jane Smith said:


> This thread is pretty old


She was bumping it for another user to find. 😉


----------



## NigerianNewbie

Caileigh Jane Smith said:


> This thread is pretty old


Yes, it was started years ago, though refreshed linked by another member a couple of months ago. I've noticed when loose minerals are discussed, the opinions and options are varied and many. In this thread are discussions about what to look for in quality, levels of different minerals and how they work together or against each other, and the pros and cons of several brands. It's a very educational thread.


----------



## Cedarwinds Farm

Ah, ok! I don't have a problem with resurrecting old threads. I just know that sometimes the people who started them aren't even on here anymore, so questions asked don't get answered.


----------



## NigerianNewbie

Caileigh Jane Smith said:


> Ah, ok! I don't have a problem with resurrecting old threads. I just know that sometimes the people who started them aren't even on here anymore, so questions asked don't get answered.


True, mariarose no longer maintains this thread. I feel there is a high probability the question and answer will continue through other members. A lot of time and effort went into creating this thread, it would be a shame to let all of this information fall to the wayside.


----------



## MellonFriend

NigerianNewbie said:


> True, mariarose no longer maintains this thread. I feel there is a high probability the question and answer will continue through other members. A lot of time and effort went into creating this thread, it would be a shame to let all of this information die a slow death.


I agree. @mariarose was a terrific member, I learned so, so much from her about minerals that it would be a great shame to see this thread slip away. I wonder if the moderators would consider sticky-ing this thread? 🤔 @ksalvagno @toth boer goats ? What do you guys think? Sticky worthy or no...?


----------



## K.B.

MellonFriend said:


> I agree. @mariarose was a terrific member, I learned so, so much from her about minerals that it would be a great shame to see this thread slip away. I wonder if the moderators would consider sticky-ing this thread?  @ksalvagno @toth boer goats ? What do you guys think? Sticky worthy or no...?


Right it would be a good sticky, it's a lot to read lol


----------



## NigerianNewbie

It's like the old saying, "Give a man a fish, and you've fed him once. Teach a man to fish and he can feed himself for a lifetime." You could ask 3 people what loose mineral they use, and possibly get 3 different answers. Learning to recognize the different pro and con aspects of the ingredients, having copies of the guaranteed analysis available to judge for self without going store to store and/or doing an extensive online search, and having the information on where the loose minerals could be purchased, is valuable. Unless someone is willing to pay high shipping costs, the best mineral for the needs of an individual herd often comes down to the best loose mineral available in the area you live. Being able to judge what loose mineral and/or supplement would benefit the goats in your herd is a learned skill. What works for one person, may not have the same results for someone else.


----------



## K.B.

NigerianNewbie said:


> It's like the old saying, "Give a man a fish, and you've fed him once. Teach a man to fish and he can feed himself for a lifetime." You could ask 3 people what loose mineral they use, and possibly get 3 different answers. Learning to recognize the different pro and con aspects of the ingredients, having copies of the guaranteed analysis available to judge for self without going store to store and/or doing an extensive online search, and having the information on where the loose minerals could be purchased, is valuable. Unless someone is willing to pay high shipping costs, the best mineral for the needs of an individual herd often comes down to the best loose mineral available in the area you live. Being able to judge what loose mineral and/or supplement would benefit the goats in your herd is a learned skill. What works for one person, may not have the same results for someone else.


Yes I'm still learning some!  the confusion of different types of minerals and what is absorbed better is what gets me!


----------



## MellonFriend

K.B. said:


> Yes I'm still learning some!  the confusion of different types of minerals and what is absorbed better is what gets me!


What you are looking for is minerals that say "complex", "chelated", or "amino acid". Those are going to be absorbed better than things that end it "sulfate" or "Oxide".

Edited: I really like to see multiple forms of a mineral in the ingredients. That's even better than just one, but I would take those better forms as the only source over multiple sources of less digestible forms.


----------



## K.B.

MellonFriend said:


> What you are looking for is minerals that say "complex", "chelated", or "amino acid". Those are going to be absorbed better than things that end it "sulfate" or "Oxide".
> 
> I really like to see multiple forms of a mineral in the ingredients. That's even better than just one.


Thanks, so copper lysine complex is a good one!


----------



## MellonFriend

K.B. said:


> Thanks, so copper lysine complex is a good one!


Yep, that's right. 😉


----------



## NigerianNewbie

Well said MellonFriend . Was in the process of beginning to write a similar reply regarding ingredients, once your reply popped up, the backspace key got a work out.


----------



## FizzyGoats

MellonFriend said:


> What you are looking for is minerals that say "complex", "chelated", or "amino acid". Those are going to be absorbed better than things that end it "sulfate" or "Oxide".
> 
> Edited: I really like to see multiple forms of a mineral in the ingredients. That's even better than just one, but I would take those better forms as the only source over multiple sources of less digestible forms.


This is so helpful! Thank you.


----------



## K.B.

FizzyGoats said:


> This is so helpful! Thank you.


Yes it is!


----------



## Goatastic43

MellonFriend said:


> What you are looking for is minerals that say "complex", "chelated", or "amino acid". Those are going to be absorbed better than things that end it "sulfate" or "Oxide".
> 
> Edited: I really like to see multiple forms of a mineral in the ingredients. That's even better than just one, but I would take those better forms as the only source over multiple sources of less digestible forms.


Wow! I had no idea! Very useful!


----------



## toth boer goats

It should be a sticky now.


----------



## K.B.

Cool now I can go back to this easier!


----------



## K.B.

Thanks!


----------



## toth boer goats

You bet.


----------



## NigerianNewbie

@MellonFriend Lookie here, lookie here! toth boer goats granted the request you made for this thread to become a sticky. Am so glad you came up with the idea.


toth boer goats said:


> It should be a sticky now.


----------



## NigerianNewbie

toth boer goats said:


> It should be a sticky now.


Thank you very much. I am so glad the decision to make this thread a sticky note was granted.


----------



## toth boer goats

No problem everyone, you all are important to me and when you request something like this, which should be a sticky, well here you go.


----------



## MellonFriend

toth boer goats said:


> It should be a sticky now.





NigerianNewbie said:


> @MellonFriend Lookie here, lookie here! toth boer goats granted the request you made for this thread to become a sticky. Am so glad you came up with the idea.


Yippee!!!!

Thanks for tagging me, NigerianNewbie. I had so many alerts today that I missed it.


----------



## MellonFriend

FizzyGoats said:


> This is so helpful! Thank you.


You're welcome!


----------



## TripleShareNubians

My favorite mineral is Durafirm Concept Aid. They inhale it when they are pregnant. I always keep two different minerals out so I may have to try that one out as a second at some point


----------



## MellonFriend

TripleShareNubians said:


> My favorite mineral is Durafirm Concept Aid. They inhale it when they are pregnant. I always keep two different minerals out so I may have to try that one out as a second at some point


Would you mind posting a picture of the guaranteed analysis of it? I like hearing about different minerals.😁


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## K.B.

I love the new mineral (well its a couple months old now) it's Crystal Farms organic mineral I believe! I got it at our local co op


----------



## Jubillee

TripleShareNubians said:


> My favorite mineral is Durafirm Concept Aid. They inhale it when they are pregnant. I always keep two different minerals out so I may have to try that one out as a second at some point


Oh we used to use this one too. Before we got on what we are on now, we used this and alternated with Sweetlix. The girls ate it up like crazy.


----------



## TripleShareNubians

Jubillee said:


> Oh we used to use this one too. Before we got on what we are on now, we used this and alternated with Sweetlix. The girls ate it up like crazy.


So what are you doing now?


----------



## Jubillee

TripleShareNubians said:


> So what are you doing now?


We do a mineral buffet. 20 individual minerals for them to pick and choose.


----------



## Cedarwinds Farm

Here's the thread on that mineral system Jubillee uses now, if you're interested @TripleShareNubians . Anyone feed individual minerals - Our journey
I'm going to try it out, too.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

Sweetlix is what I got for a long time, but it's my backup now. I use Payback Ultramin PNW. It has the best copper and selenium of any mineral I've found, and very low salt so they eat it like crazy (I provide a plain salt block too, and their protein tub has some as well.) It's a Cenex brand so regional only - there's a few independent stores that carry it but not many. They also have a standard 12-6 or 12-12 blend that have a bit less Cu and Se, as well as a sheep and goat with no copper. It's amazing stuff. 

Cenex was out of it for like a month a while ago so I grab some Purina Wind and Rain to try to tide them over but they wouldn't touch it. High salt and all the minerals are inorganic which have poor absorption. I don't know why people rave about it. They weren't even very interested in the Sweetlix; spoiled goats, lol. They inhaled the Payback when I finally got more like their lives depended on it


----------



## TripleShareNubians

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Sweetlix is what I got for a long time, but it's my backup now. I use Payback Ultramin PNW. It has the best copper and selenium of any mineral I've found, and very low salt so they eat it like crazy (I provide a plain salt block too, and their protein tub has some as well.) It's a Cenex brand so regional only - there's a few independent stores that carry it but not many. They also have a standard 12-6 or 12-12 blend that have a bit less Cu and Se, as well as a sheep and goat with no copper. It's amazing stuff.
> 
> Cenex was out of it for like a month a while ago so I grab some Purina Wind and Rain to try to tide them over but they wouldn't touch it. High salt and all the minerals are inorganic which have poor absorption. I don't know why people rave about it. They weren't even very interested in the Sweetlix; spoiled goats, lol. They inhaled the Payback when I finally got more like their lives depended on it


Regional to where?


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

TripleShareNubians said:


> Regional to where?


I'm not sure how far Cenex covers. I'm in WA.


----------



## Goatastic43

Ok-I hope this isn’t in the wrong place, but I wasn’t sure where else to put it. So I was reading a podcast by The Thrifty Homesteader and found the whole podcast very interesting. (Would recommend reading sometime).

Anyway, the part that really got me was when they talked about selenium gel, which I know many (including myself) use on the forum. But, they way they put it, made it really sound useless and second guess myself on even using it again. They also talked about BOSE, and didn’t act like they were huge fans on that either.

What are you alls take on this? He explained it really well. It definitely makes me think….

————————————————————

Deborah Niemann 40:54
So, one of the things I wanted to mention in terms of the selenium supplements, is that so many people think that the selenium gels are adequate. But, if you look at the labels of most of them, they have, like, 1 ppm of selenium in them, which seems like a waste of money. Like, that just does not seem like very much, especially when people talk about doing it once a month, maybe once a week. Like, how often would you have to be giving a goat that extra 1 ppm of selenium to make a difference?



Robert Van Saun 41:31
So 1 ppm? One part per million?

Deborah Niemann 41:34
I found one of the labels and it says, “Each 2 mil dose contains 23.2 micrograms,” and they put “1 ppm” in parentheses.

Robert Van Saun 41:44
Okay. 23.2 micrograms. Per 2 mls.

Deborah Niemann 41:53
Yes.

Robert Van Saun 41:53
That would be 11.6 micrograms per ml, so that’s per gram. Okay?



Deborah Niemann 42:02
Okay.

Robert Van Saun 42:03
Now, we have to convert that. That’s not parts per million. So, per 11.6 micrograms, that would be 0.0116 milligrams per 1 ml. So that means they would get 0.02 milligrams in that dose.

Deborah Niemann 42:30
Which is next to nothing.

Robert Van Saun 42:31
Next to nothing.

Deborah Niemann 42:32
Okay. That’s what I’ve been saying for years. So, I’m like, “This has next to nothing in it.”

Robert Van Saun 42:37
Remember, we can feed as high as 0.7 milligrams per day.

Deborah Niemann 42:43
Yeah.

Robert Van Saun 42:44
Right? 0.7 milligrams—to put it on the same thing—a microgram is 1/1000 of a milligram. So, if we take 0.7 milligrams and multiply it by 1000, that’s 700 micrograms.



Deborah Niemann 43:01
Wow. So you could give the whole tube to a goat, and you wouldn’t hurt it?

Robert Van Saun 43:07
Well, you’d hurt your wallet.

Deborah Niemann 43:09
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. But there’s just so little selenium in here.

Robert Van Saun 43:15
That’s right. And that’s why they’re not seeing any good selenium response.

(Full article here: Selenium Deficiency and Toxicity in Goats)


----------



## 21goaties

I thought it was about the form of selenium, not the amount...and plus it depends on what the individual goat needs


----------



## MellonFriend

I'm interested to hear what others say too. I mean, I see results with the gels so I don't really understand why the "science" doesn't back it.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

Are these people actually professionals? There's a lot more to it than just the straight amount. The type of selenium absolutely has a lot to do with it - organic sources are far more bioavailable, so if they're referring to that "max per day" from inorganic sources it's not a valid comparison. Plus vitamin E improves uptake which is why the gel contains that also. If they're getting selenium from their diet but not E they can't utilize it properly. 

The gel is only meant to be used as an occasional boost, not relied on to make up for insufficient diet, so anyone who's having to give it that often needs to take a look at their overall management, particularly their loose minerals. But you need to know how much is in your feed as well because selenium has a narrow margin for safety and is the easiest mineral to overdose - which IMHO makes the comment about giving the whole tube highly irresponsible. Goats do have more tolerance than most animals but that doesn't mean you can just play fast and loose with dosage. 

Bo-Se is a much more concentrated form, as well as absorbed better and faster since it's injected. That also makes it much easier to OD which is why it's Rx. If you have severe deficiency it's definitely going to be more effective; I can't imagine why they'd poo-poo it. Personally I always use Bo-Se in adults and only keep the gel for newborns. As long as their gut is still open they can absorb it nearly as well, but with a wider safety margin than Bo-Se. I've only used Bo-Se once with a kid that was too weak to stand because I didn't want to wait for the gel to work through the digestive tract, but I've always seen improvement from gel within 24 hours or so when they're just a little wobbly. 
Keep in mind that Bo-Se does NOT contain vitamin E, so if you use that you need to make sure they're getting enough E from other sources. Always err on the low side when it comes to dosing, unless a vet specifically tells you otherwise.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

Also - that 2mg they're talking about is the dose for newborns, when they do absorb it so readily.


----------



## 21goaties

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Keep in mind that Bo-Se does NOT contain vitamin E


Bo-Se does contain vitamin E, at least ours does.


----------



## Jessica84

yep it says right on the front of the label


----------



## toth boer goats

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Are these people actually professionals? There's a lot more to it than just the straight amount. The type of selenium absolutely has a lot to do with it - organic sources are far more bioavailable, so if they're referring to that "max per day" from inorganic sources it's not a valid comparison. Plus vitamin E improves uptake which is why the gel contains that also. If they're getting selenium from their diet but not E they can't utilize it properly.
> 
> The gel is only meant to be used as an occasional boost, not relied on to make up for insufficient diet, so anyone who's having to give it that often needs to take a look at their overall management, particularly their loose minerals. But you need to know how much is in your feed as well because selenium has a narrow margin for safety and is the easiest mineral to overdose - which IMHO makes the comment about giving the whole tube highly irresponsible. Goats do have more tolerance than most animals but that doesn't mean you can just play fast and loose with dosage.
> 
> Bo-Se is a much more concentrated form, as well as absorbed better and faster since it's injected. That also makes it much easier to OD which is why it's Rx. If you have severe deficiency it's definitely going to be more effective; I can't imagine why they'd poo-poo it. Personally I always use Bo-Se in adults and only keep the gel for newborns. As long as their gut is still open they can absorb it nearly as well, but with a wider safety margin than Bo-Se. I've only used Bo-Se once with a kid that was too weak to stand because I didn't want to wait for the gel to work through the digestive tract, but I've always seen improvement from gel within 24 hours or so when they're just a little wobbly.
> Keep in mind that Bo-Se does NOT contain vitamin E, so if you use that you need to make sure they're getting enough E from other sources. Always err on the low side when it comes to dosing, unless a vet specifically tells you otherwise.


 Very well said.


----------



## MellonFriend

Great info @Wild Hearts Ranch. Yes, these people are supposed to be professionals that's what's so weird. The guy being interviewed is a professor of veterinary science at Pennsylvania State University. Just shows you that you can't always trust what you hear about goats.


----------



## Goatastic43

@Wild Hearts Ranch, thanks for putting that into laymen terms for me!  A lot of this stuff is over my head. Some of what they said was very interesting, but when they started talking about Selenium gel like that, it had me kinda confused. Im glad I asked you guys about it, because they almost had me convinced never to use it again! 

I hadn’t thought about the vitamin E and different types of selenium in it. That’s a very good point!

Anyway, it’s definitely good stuff to learn about, and hear different takes on it!


----------



## 21goaties

I think that it's possible that the veterinarian could have not known that the gel she was talking about has organic selenium in it. 

I looked at the page you posted and earlier in the podcast the vet says:

"there are products out there, and one that I would look at very carefully is two what we call “organic selenium products” that I think a lot of the feed mills have for horses that are in smaller quantities. These products contain the selenomethionine, which is the organic form of selenium that I mentioned earlier is much more available. And even some of the commercial products that you see, if you look on the ingredient list, they may have “selenomethionine” or “yeast selenium” or “selenized yeast”—those would be all the different names that that would be. And that’s going to be a much more available source of selenium, and that would be what I might want to use. Now, I want to caution everybody: Organic selenium is good, and it is absorbed, but I am seeing, in cases when people use exclusively organic mineral, especially the organic selenium, that liver concentrations and tissue concentrations get really high. It’s makes me scared. I almost get into, you know, potential toxicity, although I’ve not seen any clinical signs. So, my recommendation is no more than about 50% organic selenium and 50% inorganic."

I wonder if the vet would have a different answer if he knew that the selenium in the gel was not sodium selenite (the selenium source that is in minerals and feeds), but organic selenium yeast?

I think the point they are trying to make is that you need to make sure that your mineral mix and feed is providing enough selenium, don't just assume it is in forage or give the gel, Bo-Se, etc as the only source of selenium.


----------



## Goatastic43

21goaties said:


> I think the point they are trying to make is that you need to make sure that your mineral mix and feed is providing enough selenium, don't just assume it is in forage or give the gel, Bo-Se, etc as the only source of selenium.


Exactly! I think that’s why he didn’t act like he was the biggest fan of BOSE 
because he said so many people were using it as a “band-aid” instead of fixing their mineral problems.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

Jessica84 said:


> View attachment 220920
> yep it says right on the front of the label


My mistake - maybe it was the ratio compared to the gel? I'll have to take a look.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

MellonFriend said:


> Great info @Wild Hearts Ranch. Yes, these people are supposed to be professionals that's what's so weird. The guy being interviewed is a professor of veterinary science at Pennsylvania State University. Just shows you that you can't always trust what you hear about goats.


Does he have specific experience with goats? More and more vets are taking them on these days because they're becoming popular, without fully understanding the differences in treating them compared to other livestock. Never mind the small animal vets accepting them because of the pet market 😠 They're not freaking dogs! IMHO vets should need specific qualifications to treat individual species. Maybe a basic small animal degree path, a basic livestock one, and add-on certifications for others that interest them - goats, camelids, birds, reptiles. Human doctors can't just go do whatever they want with a basic MD; that's called malpractice.


----------



## Chanceosunshine

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Does he have specific experience with goats? More and more vets are taking them on these days because they're becoming popular, without fully understanding the differences in treating them compared to other livestock. Never mind the small animal vets accepting them because of the pet market 😠 They're not freaking dogs! IMHO vets should need specific qualifications to treat individual species. Maybe a basic small animal degree path, a basic livestock one, and add-on certifications for others that interest them - goats, camelids, birds, reptiles. Human doctors can't just go do whatever they want with a basic MD; that's called malpractice.


Robert Van Saun Robert J. Van Saun, DVM, MS, PhD


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## Cedarwinds Farm

I realize we all want to do what's best for our goats, and we're all learning as we go. But if someone tells me what I'm doing won't work...but I'm getting good results...I just smile politely, tuck that opinion away in case I need it someday, and keep doing what I'm doing. Even the experts don't know everything.


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## toth boer goats

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.


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## Jessica84

toth boer goats said:


> If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.


Lol best advise there is!!!!


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## toth boer goats

😉😆


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## Goatastic43

So I’ve changed to Supreme Goat Minerals. We were always dealing with deficiency so I’m hope this new mineral helps with that. I’ve had it free choice and they love it! I bit too much… they eat so much of it!! It only says to let them has 1/3 oz a day so they don’t get to much selenium (it has 80ppm of selenium) and they have been eating at least 2 oz!!! Do I hold of on leaving it free choice and only put a small amount out or just sprinkle a little in their food? Or do I just let them have at it? I knew they were a little deficient, but goodness! I really don’t want the to eat themselves into toxicity!

@NigerianDwarfOwner707
@MellonFriend


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## Elbee

Goatastic43 said:


> So I’ve changed to Supreme Goat Minerals. We were always dealing with deficiency so I’m hope this new mineral helps with that. I’ve had it free choice and they love it! I bit too much… they eat so much of it!! It only says to let them has 1/3 oz a day so they don’t get to much selenium (it has 80ppm of selenium) and they have been eating at least 2 oz!!! Do I hold of on leaving it free choice and only put a small amount out or just sprinkle a little in their food? Or do I just let them have at it? I knew they were a little deficient, but goodness! I really don’t want the to eat themselves into toxicity!
> 
> @NigerianDwarfOwner707
> @MellonFriend


Do you have a label? Wondering if there is some additive leading to over consumption.


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## Goatastic43

Elbee said:


> Do you have a label? Wondering if there is some additive leading to over consumption.











This is the label. I don’t see any additives, but not sure what that one ethy….how ever you spell it, word is.


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## 21goaties

I would leave it out free choice


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## Elbee

Looks good to me. 🤷‍♀️


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## Goatastic43

Yeah I don’t know….maybe they need 2 oz right now. 🤷‍♀️ I’ll put some more out tonight, maybe just not that much. Thanks for the advice


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Goatastic43 said:


> So I’ve changed to Supreme Goat Minerals. We were always dealing with deficiency so I’m hope this new mineral helps with that. I’ve had it free choice and they love it! I bit too much… they eat so much of it!! It only says to let them has 1/3 oz a day so they don’t get to much selenium (it has 80ppm of selenium) and they have been eating at least 2 oz!!! Do I hold of on leaving it free choice and only put a small amount out or just sprinkle a little in their food? Or do I just let them have at it? I knew they were a little deficient, but goodness! I really don’t want the to eat themselves into toxicity!
> 
> @NigerianDwarfOwner707
> @MellonFriend


Let them have it free choice. They are deficient, and that is why they are consuming so much. Consumption will slow when they get enough. It is fine, let them eat what they need. You can slow consumption ever so slightly at the beginning by putting out a salt block for horses, if you really are worried.


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## MellonFriend

To be honest, I have never monitored the amounts that my goats eat. I just fill up the mineral feeder with a little pile every time it is low. I'd leave it out free choice. The sodium levels in it should keep them from over eating it. I'd take it as a good thing! It means it has the stuff in it they are looking for. 👍


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Let them have it free choice. They are deficient, and that is why they are consuming so much. Consumption will slow when they get enough. It is fine, let them eat what they need. You can slow consumption ever so slightly at the beginning by putting out a salt block for horses, if you really are worried.


I wish that worked with mine! They go through it like candy. It's low salt; I've started adding more and it hasn't slowed them down in the slightest 🙄 They've been on it for years except when the store runs out.


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## Goatastic43

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> I wish that worked with mine! They go through it like candy. It's low salt; I've started adding more and it hasn't slowed them down in the slightest  They've been on it for years except when the store runs out.


Do you still leave it out free choice though? I may put out a salt block like NigerianDwarfOwner707 said.

Thank you all for the help! I have a tendency to get a little over paranoid about these things lol. Just don’t want to do anything that would hurt them!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Goatastic43 said:


> Do you still leave it out free choice though? I may put out a salt block like NigerianDwarfOwner707 said.
> 
> Thank you all for the help! I have a tendency to get a little over paranoid about these things lol. Just don’t want to do anything that would hurt them!


I try to, although I can't keep it full because they eat it too fast! I have a plain salt block too and they'll use it also, but like the minerals far more. They fight over them when I refill like they would grain. I tried giving them other ones when the store was out and they were flat out rejected - including Sweetlix, which is fairly decent and what I used to use before I found this stuff. Spoiled snobs!


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## toth boer goats




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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> I wish that worked with mine! They go through it like candy. It's low salt; I've started adding more and it hasn't slowed them down in the slightest 🙄 They've been on it for years except when the store runs out.


Which mineral?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Which mineral?


Payback PNW Ultramin


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Which mineral?


In the past they have slowed down eventually. It was a slightly different blend at one point before they started offering the PNW - I don't remember when I changed and if that might have an effect, or if it's related to the issues I've been having lately. I even added their herbal wormer which they normally hate the taste of and they're still chowing down! At least it's an easy way to get them to eat it, lol.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Payback PNW Ultramin


I see! They are definitely low in salt, but I like the mineral itself! Copper to zinc ratio is a little bit off being 2:1 as opposed to required minimum of 3:1 or even 4:1 ideally so I'd watch for zinc issues but if you haven't had any that's great. Good forms of minerals I like to see the amino acid complexes for better absorption. As long as you're offering a separate salt source, it's a better option for a mineral than most people can easily get!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I see! They are definitely low in salt, but I like the mineral itself! Copper to zinc ratio is a little bit off being 2:1 as opposed to required minimum of 3:1 or even 4:1 ideally so I'd watch for zinc issues but if you haven't had any that's great. Good forms of minerals I like to see the amino acid complexes for better absorption. As long as you're offering a separate salt source, it's a better option for a mineral than most people can easily get!


Yeah, I won't waste my money on anything that's not chelated. My hay has enough calcium to balance out the ratios (surprising in grass.) It's tested and I have a spreadsheet with everything calculated out.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I see! They are definitely low in salt, but I like the mineral itself! Copper to zinc ratio is a little bit off being 2:1 as opposed to required minimum of 3:1 or even 4:1 ideally so I'd watch for zinc issues but if you haven't had any that's great. Good forms of minerals I like to see the amino acid complexes for better absorption. As long as you're offering a separate salt source, it's a better option for a mineral than most people can easily get!


Oops, I misread that as calcium to zinc, which is listed as the main cause of zinc deficiency due to inhibition, but everything I read is talking about that being due to alfalfa. My hay is a little high in Ca for grass but nowhere near that. I can't find any actual values for a target ratio, and being primary over trace I can't use others as a comparison, but the Ultramin brings it way down compared to the hay alone (having minimal zinc by itself.) Some of my more vague symptoms resemble zinc issues, but all the articles say poor appetite is the first sign and that is certainly NOT a problem! They definitely do show low copper despite these levels so I'd rather err on that side. Switching to the goat blend would bring the Zn/Cu up at the cost of halving the copper, plus far more salt reducing total intake. I was mistaken on those values - the goat is actually 500ppm less zinc as well, but the much lower copper brings the ratio up. What they do have more of is vit D (not a bad thing, but my issues persist in the summer so it's not the problem) and manganese, which I already run high on. It's through the roof in the hay and the PNW blend just brings Mn/Cu down into a reasonable (if not ideal) range, so I certainly wouldn't want to increase that. It was my first thought when I suspected a water issue due to leaching from the soil, but test is negative and adding a filter hasn't helped.

Here's what I'm working with, more or less, averaged for a 100 lb animal. I need to try to get a closer estimate of protein tub and mineral intake when I'm able to keep them full but it should be within the ballpark, and a different bodyweight would change total amount but not ratios. The hay analysis is a few years old but from the same fields, and I'm planning to send out a new sample - including selenium, which she didn't add on that time. Though I highly doubt there's enough to make any appreciable difference.
( Can take this back over to my thread if you think that's more appropriate.)


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

The calcium to phos ratio in minerals doesn't really concern me in general. Zinc and copper actually antagonize each other, so too much zinc and copper will be binded and too much copper and zinc will be binded. The synergy of them in 3x or 4x the amount of zinc to copper is best.

I have never seen inappetence as a result of zinc defic and I've seen hundreds of zinc deficient goats both my own and clients. Often first signs of zinc defic are flaky skin, poor coat and skin health, low libido, low immune function, poor resistance to external parasites and infections including lice and hoof rot and fungal issues are the main things we will see in zinc deficient goats.

I like the mineral you have - though the ultramin cattle mineral non PNW is a nice mineral that I would be more than happy to use as well. Better copper to zinc ratio, but still plenty copper as a baseline. If copper defic is still a problem, boluses are easy to add to fix that. Ultramin® 12-6 Plus - Payback Nutrition

Still low salt. Selenium is lower than the pnw, so for this mineral I would choose a selenium fortified salt lick.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> The calcium to phos ratio in minerals doesn't really concern me in general. Zinc and copper actually antagonize each other, so too much zinc and copper will be binded and too much copper and zinc will be binded. The synergy of them in 3x or 4x the amount of zinc to copper is best.
> 
> I have never seen inappetence as a result of zinc defic and I've seen hundreds of zinc deficient goats both my own and clients. Often first signs of zinc defic are flaky skin, poor coat and skin health, low libido, low immune function, poor resistance to external parasites and infections including lice and hoof rot and fungal issues are the main things we will see in zinc deficient goats.
> 
> I like the mineral you have - though the ultramin cattle mineral non PNW is a nice mineral that I would be more than happy to use as well. Better copper to zinc ratio, but still plenty copper as a baseline. If copper defic is still a problem, boluses are easy to add to fix that. Ultramin® 12-6 Plus - Payback Nutrition
> 
> Still low salt. Selenium is lower than the pnw, so for this mineral I would choose a selenium fortified salt lick.


Based on a study I looked up recently I feel that boluses are utterly useless for systemic copper. I still use them for parasites, and I was looking to see how frequently I can give them safely. The study was done on lambs at 6 week intervals with zero toxicity. If that much doesn't come near their very low tolerance, I can't imagine there's any significant amount getting absorbed, let alone in goat metabolism. Oxide is already known to be very poorly absorbed and that's further confirmation. So I'm only counting on their dietary sources for that. (It would also push my zinc ratio even lower if it was affecting their stored levels.)

Those symptoms do fit, but I read numerous articles and they all talk about going off feed and foaming at the mouth. Could it be that's only acute? Deficiencies usually develop over time though. Mine are certainly getting plenty in total amount and the ratio isn't too far off. I did feed the regular Ultramin before they started carrying the PNW, and I switched for the extra selenium as well as copper. I don't think they even carry the other one any more - apparently I'm the only customer still buying the PNW and it's a crap shoot on whether they even have it unless I special order. It can take them weeks to get (if they even remember to put it on the ticket) so I'm going to see if another store would be able to order it. It's their house brand though and there's few other places that carry any of their products.

I do have MultiMin, which has 4:1 Zn/Cu, but I'm VERY wary of toxicity with that. I've only used it a couple times on animals in bad shape when there wasn't much to lose. Ratio aside it has a ton of Se, Mn which I'm already so high in, and injectable is the one way that copper can be overdosed fairly easily because the absorption is so thorough and immediate (that's how they tested goat tolerance.) There's a good reason it's Rx. I could maybe experiment on auction-bound animals that I'm willing to put down if it causes problems, but even if it helps I don't want to and shouldn't need to rely on it regularly when they have so much through their feed. I'd be more comfortable seeing if there's an individual zinc supplement I could add to bring up that ratio - maybe from that free choice program? If eating it alone wouldn't be adequate it's easy enough to calculate out how much to add to the Ultramin for a better ratio.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> The calcium to phos ratio in minerals doesn't really concern me in general. Zinc and copper actually antagonize each other, so too much zinc and copper will be binded and too much copper and zinc will be binded. The synergy of them in 3x or 4x the amount of zinc to copper is best.
> 
> I have never seen inappetence as a result of zinc defic and I've seen hundreds of zinc deficient goats both my own and clients. Often first signs of zinc defic are flaky skin, poor coat and skin health, low libido, low immune function, poor resistance to external parasites and infections including lice and hoof rot and fungal issues are the main things we will see in zinc deficient goats.
> 
> I like the mineral you have - though the ultramin cattle mineral non PNW is a nice mineral that I would be more than happy to use as well. Better copper to zinc ratio, but still plenty copper as a baseline. If copper defic is still a problem, boluses are easy to add to fix that. Ultramin® 12-6 Plus - Payback Nutrition
> 
> Still low salt. Selenium is lower than the pnw, so for this mineral I would choose a selenium fortified salt lick.


BTW, I was talking about calcium to zinc, not phosphorus  The Ca/Zn interference is what most of the articles about deficiency refer to. At 3:1 Ca/P I'm quite content with that. I don't grain and don't have any trouble with UC.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

The foaming at the mouth aspect of zinc baffles me and I have no idea where that came from - only person who has ever stated it from what I can see is one, Deborah Niemann. I've seen foaming frequently as a random occurrence from the bicarbonate produced while cud chewing that some goats get and some goats don't and it is utterly unrelated and unaffected by zinc supplementation. If a goat is suffering from poor health otherwise, eventually inappetence is just a sign of that - poor health. Any and all mineral deficiencies can get to that point.

As for copper bolus, interesting thoughts. I have to disagree, but I am happy to explain why. Firstly, the sheep copper toxicity issue is overplayed in my opinion. They are sensitive to copper but less so than most think. Of course, it is important to still be cautious, but the COWP copper bolus studies have good reason as to why they do not affect sheep with their lower copper tolerance. Copper oxide rods do have a lower bioavailability level. But very important not to confuse how the RODS work vs the pure oxide form included in some minerals. In a loose mineral, we want bioavailability to the nth degree. That is what we should strive for because of how it is consumed. Amino acid complexes, chelates, etc. and for selenium, organic forms. Now the rods are a different story. Unlike copper oxide in minerals, the copper oxide rods have been shown to lodge into the abomasum. So instead of copper oxide passing in and out without having an effect (or enough time to be absorbed) the low bioavailable COWP rods stick around, literally. This provides the slow release, VERY slow release, of copper. This is why sheep are not poisoned by them, and why they are VERY safe for goats to avoid poisoning unlike oral copper sulfate which is almost too bioavailable (though still isn't absorbed in the right ways to fix deeply rooted deficiencies), and unlike injectable minerals which cause poisonings left and right. I wouldn't touch Multi Min with a ten foot pole. Now, the slow release form of the COWP actually benefits the goats in its lack of fast absorption. I have found that when minerals are slower to release in the body, and over more gradual periods of time, they have a way of healing and correcting deficiencies more efficiently. Instead of running rampant through the liver to then be excreted or sent to organs in one shot like oral or injectable routes do, the COWP fills the liver with copper gradually and over a course of time where it is truly able to make a difference slowly but surely. I want the liver filled in a way that is going to last, so my goats' bodies can take copper as they please, here and there, and transport it to necessary organs and parts of the body as needed. Copper boluses, frankly, work wonderfully. In a month or two after bolusing, severely deficient goats make huge turnarounds. I'll attach a pic of one of my own goats who had the most rough, curly coat, and in 1 month after a bolus was shiny and sleek.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> The foaming at the mouth aspect of zinc baffles me and I have no idea where that came from - only person who has ever stated it from what I can see is one, Deborah Niemann. I've seen foaming frequently as a random occurrence from the bicarbonate produced while cud chewing that some goats get and some goats don't and it is utterly unrelated and unaffected by zinc supplementation. If a goat is suffering from poor health otherwise, eventually inappetence is just a sign of that - poor health. Any and all mineral deficiencies can get to that point.
> 
> As for copper bolus, interesting thoughts. I have to disagree, but I am happy to explain why. Firstly, the sheep copper toxicity issue is overplayed in my opinion. They are sensitive to copper but less so than most think. Of course, it is important to still be cautious, but the COWP copper bolus studies have good reason as to why they do not affect sheep with their lower copper tolerance. Copper oxide rods do have a lower bioavailability level. But very important not to confuse how the RODS work vs the pure oxide form included in some minerals. In a loose mineral, we want bioavailability to the nth degree. That is what we should strive for because of how it is consumed. Amino acid complexes, chelates, etc. and for selenium, organic forms. Now the rods are a different story. Unlike copper oxide in minerals, the copper oxide rods have been shown to lodge into the abomasum. So instead of copper oxide passing in and out without having an effect (or enough time to be absorbed) the low bioavailable COWP rods stick around, literally. This provides the slow release, VERY slow release, of copper. This is why sheep are not poisoned by them, and why they are VERY safe for goats to avoid poisoning unlike oral copper sulfate which is almost too bioavailable (though still isn't absorbed in the right ways to fix deeply rooted deficiencies), and unlike injectable minerals which cause poisonings left and right. I wouldn't touch Multi Min with a ten foot pole. Now, the slow release form of the COWP actually benefits the goats in its lack of fast absorption. I have found that when minerals are slower to release in the body, and over more gradual periods of time, they have a way of healing and correcting deficiencies more efficiently. Instead of running rampant through the liver to then be excreted or sent to organs in one shot like oral or injectable routes do, the COWP fills the liver with copper gradually and over a course of time where it is truly able to make a difference slowly but surely. I want the liver filled in a way that is going to last, so my goats' bodies can take copper as they please, here and there, and transport it to necessary organs and parts of the body as needed. Copper boluses, frankly, work wonderfully. In a month or two after bolusing, severely deficient goats make huge turnarounds. I'll attach a pic of one of my own goats who had the most rough, curly coat, and in 1 month after a bolus was shiny and sleek.
> View attachment 222788


Interesting. So even at that 6 week interval you don't think there was too much accumulation in the lambs? Or that more Cu would cause additional problems with my zinc? The boluses are a much bigger pain to get in them - particular as I break down the cattle sized ones because they're most cost effective - but if that's likely to make a difference if I give them more frequently I'd certainly prefer to try that over the total overhaul my vet seems to think I need! I haven't paid close enough attention to the exact timing of when they do better or worse, except that the last two years they actually improved in the winter, and summer is when they really suffer - despite fresh forage and theoretically fewer parasites due to heat and less moisture. Hence my theory about the water, since they're entirely on well in the summer while I collect rainwater in the winter, but they're still not thriving this winter. We are dryer than normal so I'm still having to fill troughs, but I have the filter on the hose and still collect as much rain as possible when we do get it. 
I dose postpartum does with herbal wormer, and adding the CWP to that is the easiest way to get it into them. I have 6-10 does due within the next two weeks (depending on how many settled) and another 7? between late March and early May. I'm thinking the ones that are about to pop I'll do with their post-kidding worming, rather than torture them more than necessary, but should go ahead and do the rest now?

As far as the zinc - it's looking like Zinpro is probably my best option. The rest are either inorganic or packaged with even more manganese and copper. I can get 40 lb for about $100 shipped, and at 4% that should last them a damn good amount of time! I'm currently at 29 head and expect that to roughly double with kids.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> View attachment 222788


FWIW - my spoiled baby who has the run of the place when I'm out doing chores is one of my healthiest, despite a rough start. Aside from an occasional handful of generic pellets (not goat formulated) or horse treat she mostly just pigs out on hay, or any forage in the summer. Her "step sister" (who only has one very distant relation) also does great; I can only assume through genetics since she's managed the same as everyone else. She's Sundgau and her coat is always a lovely shiny black summer or winter. Right now I'm starting to see a minimal touch of rust but still excellent texture; she holds condition well and grew amazingly. She's also due for the first time next week and I'm SUPER excited to see what she has!! 😁 Those are the genes I need more of! (I also bred my herd queen to a friend's monster buck that's almost TOO easy keeping, and I'm hoping for a sire prospect from that breeding!)


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Water source is probably the single most important thing that makes or breaks a diet and rainwater will always be better.

As for copper boluses, even when the boluses are opened they still get to the right place and do their job. I open a bolus and put it into applesauce and let mine lick it up. I have had all my clients do this as well and the boluses work the same. I have even compared in similar goats bolus vs opening the bolus and no difference.

The reason many people believed it didn't work was because in the main study of opening a bolus to check effectivity, it was opened and placed into a marshmallow. The marshmallow did not dissolve properly and release the bolus.

I would not burden yourself with the baling gun and would simply open up the boluses and dose in your goat's favorite treat.

I recommend bolusing no more frequently than every 3 months when giving at the correct safe dosage which is 1 gram per 22lbs. Some people need to do it every 3-4, others every 5-6, others 6-8, depends on your goats and go by symptoms and how the coat is feeling mostly.

Adding extra copper without adding extra zinc would throw off the ratio, but it sounds like your goats need both extra copper and zinc, so it needs to be done.

I have personally found zinpro to work horribly. LOL. I don't know why - I cannot explain it. In the form it's in, it should work wonderfully. I thought maybe the dosage, but even given free choice it actually seems to work even more poorly...but TruCare4 top dress mineral blend from the same company, same form of zinc, it works better. TruCare does contain a few other minerals and the balance between them may be changing results but unlikely. Nonetheless, you can try zinpro, it works for some. Feed at recommended daily dosage, not free choice. It always goes wrong when people feed it free choice. Human zinc pills often work even better, for dwarf breeds give half a 50mg pill and others give 1 50mg pill, form of zinc gluconate or zinc amino acid complex works best. Frequency depends on severity, anywhere from once a day for a few days then once a week for a few weeks to once a month.

Just as a note, a lot of times when "zinc deficiency symptoms" don't resolve from zinc supplementation, it's because it's actually vitamin A or vitamin A/D/E deficiency.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Water source is probably the single most important thing that makes or breaks a diet and rainwater will always be better.
> 
> As for copper boluses, even when the boluses are opened they still get to the right place and do their job. I open a bolus and put it into applesauce and let mine lick it up. I have had all my clients do this as well and the boluses work the same. I have even compared in similar goats bolus vs opening the bolus and no difference.
> 
> The reason many people believed it didn't work was because in the main study of opening a bolus to check effectivity, it was opened and placed into a marshmallow. The marshmallow did not dissolve properly and release the bolus.
> 
> I would not burden yourself with the baling gun and would simply open up the boluses and dose in your goat's favorite treat.
> 
> I recommend bolusing no more frequently than every 3 months when giving at the correct safe dosage which is 1 gram per 22lbs. Some people need to do it every 3-4, others every 5-6, others 6-8, depends on your goats and go by symptoms and how the coat is feeling mostly.
> 
> Adding extra copper without adding extra zinc would throw off the ratio, but it sounds like your goats need both extra copper and zinc, so it needs to be done.
> 
> I have personally found zinpro to work horribly. LOL. I don't know why - I cannot explain it. In the form it's in, it should work wonderfully. I thought maybe the dosage, but even given free choice it actually seems to work even more poorly...but TruCare4 top dress mineral blend from the same company, same form of zinc, it works better. TruCare does contain a few other minerals and the balance between them may be changing results but unlikely. Nonetheless, you can try zinpro, it works for some. Feed at recommended daily dosage, not free choice. It always goes wrong when people feed it free choice. Human zinc pills often work even better, for dwarf breeds give half a 50mg pill and others give 1 50mg pill, form of zinc gluconate or zinc amino acid complex works best. Frequency depends on severity, anywhere from once a day for a few days then once a week for a few weeks to once a month.
> 
> Just as a note, a lot of times when "zinc deficiency symptoms" don't resolve from zinc supplementation, it's because it's actually vitamin A or vitamin A/D/E deficiency.


Lots of A between the Ultramin and protein tubs. Looking at Bo-Se and Se-E gel the E does seem awfully low though, so maybe they aren't absorbing the selenium as well as they should be? It wasn't checked in the hay last time, I'll see if I can add it on to the new analysis. I know it drops quickly in stored feed and this time of year is when they would be at the lowest, with it being 8 months since cutting and fresh forage not in yet, so whatever it does contain is worst case. Is there any convenient way to add that long term without dosing each individual? Another powdered supplement?
(FYI, I forgot to adjust the E/Se ratio before I took that screenshot. Originally it was Se/E which is a tiny fraction, but flipping it gives me 11:1 in total ration.)

Breaking down the boluses is just a matter of work. The capsules are designed to dissolve almost immediately to release the wires so I know that wouldn't affect it - but I do want to get the particles down whole, since the weight is supposed to be calculated for maximum implantation (I know, it's debated, but better to err on the safe side.) I've found that mixing it in applesauce to drench (via a large tube) is most effective, and that's how I have to get the herbs down anyway because it's totally hit or miss as far as which goats will eat them voluntarily mixed with anything else. I can't believe everyone else gets away with the dosage balls! That was a total nonstarter. Shoving pills down each and every throat daily is DEFINITELY not happening, lol. I'll try custom mixing the Zinpro at 4:1. Eating it with the rest of the high quality minerals in Ultramin they SHOULD be getting an ideal balance that way for maximum metabolization.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Found E powder, and it's cheap (shipping notwithstanding.) This is gonna get complicated 🤦‍♀️


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

@NigerianDwarfOwner707 my inclination is to try adding straight E at first, as well as the zinc, and see how they look before deciding whether to make any other adjustments. Se/E powders actually run cheaper than straight E (even though it's synthesized), but I want to be cautious about not sending their Se too high if they start absorbing it more effectively, and those have a lot of Se in relation to E, whereas I can safely throw a bunch of E at them to ensure they're at maximum utilization. There are several options on Amazon that I can get within a few days (not the case with Zinpro unfortunately!)

In the meantime I should start actually measuring what I'm giving instead of just dumping a random scoop in. They ARE finally slowing down the last few days after adding the milder formula of herbal wormer to it along with more salt, though it's mostly the powdery stuff that's left. They still come running for a fresh batch! And I just got a new protein tub so I can time how long that lasts.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

I find that goats absorb vitamin E best from natural forms of it, my favorite is Wheat Germ Oil. We also don't have to worry about overdosing it as much, the body processes the natural forms of minerals differently than synthetics or pure forms.

You are correct that most forms of selenium, ESPECIALLY BoSe, do not have enough E. Either using human cel capsules or wheat germ oil is my preference.


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## toth boer goats

Bo-Se has a safe amount of E in it to help selenium absorb into the body better. 
I think if you add more E on top of that, it may absorb even quicker. 
So we have to be careful.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

I personally haven't found the amount of E in BoSe to be enough. In personal experiences it is kind of a let down unless extra E is added, in which case it works marginally better - not a huge fan of BoSe in general.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I personally haven't found the amount of E in BoSe to be enough. In personal experiences it is kind of a let down unless extra E is added, in which case it works marginally better - not a huge fan of BoSe in general.


It's still a lot more than the 500 IU in the Ultramin! Like I said individual dosing isn't an option, so mixing the more concentrated synthetic powder seems like the best option. The generally try to overcome the lower absorption with those high levels.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

FWIW Bo-Se is 50mg E/1mg Se, while the gel is 200IU/23.2mcg. I don't feel like converting those right now


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

toth boer goats said:


> Bo-Se has a safe amount of E in it to help selenium absorb into the body better.
> I think if you add more E on top of that, it may absorb even quicker.
> So we have to be careful.


I'd assume there's an upper limit to that. They're getting a set amount of selenium, so without adding more they can't utilize more than that. Definitely need to be cautious with Bo-Se but I'm not worried about my 1ml boost (knowing they are on the low side.)


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

In general I'm not big on BoSe because it is made with sodium selenite vs selenium yeast and goats absorb selenium yeast much better for long term health.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> In general I'm not big on BoSe because it is made with sodium selenite vs selenium yeast and goats absorb selenium yeast much better for long term health.


That's why I don't rely on it (at least partly.) Just that top off for kidding. If I get things in better order hopefully I won't need that either.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

@NigerianDwarfOwner707 thanks for getting into these nitty gritties BTW! This is the kind of deep analysis I'd expect from a professional I'm paying, not "more feed, more drugs, more money" 🙄


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> @NigerianDwarfOwner707 thanks for getting into these nitty gritties BTW! This is the kind of deep analysis I'd expect from a professional I'm paying, not "more feed, more drugs, more money" 🙄


No worries! I professionally consult with people on this topic all day long so I am always happy to chat more about it.

I think you've got a good handle on this! If you are already adding herbs to minerals, not sure which, but highly recommend KopSel from Fir Meadow LLC. I was able to go from copper bolusing and supplementing zinc every 3 months to 6-8 months if not only once a year bolusing while using KopSel. I am not usually in favor of relying on herbal forms of minerals but they sure don't hurt to add!


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> No worries! I professionally consult with people on this topic all day long so I am always happy to chat more about it.
> 
> I think you've got a good handle on this! If you are already adding herbs to minerals, not sure which, but highly recommend KopSel from Fir Meadow LLC. I was able to go from copper bolusing and supplementing zinc every 3 months to 6-8 months if not only once a year bolusing while using KopSel. I am not usually in favor of relying on herbal forms of minerals but they sure don't hurt to add!


It's their herbal wormer from Molly's (the mild formula; I only dose the stronger one individually.) I have some problems with Fir Meadows' blend, and I've had excellent results from Molly's both visually and on fecal.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> It's their herbal wormer from Molly's (the mild formula; I only dose the stronger one individually.) I have some problems with Fir Meadows' blend, and I've had excellent results from Molly's both visually and on fecal.


Molly's works for some people, I'm not really a fan for many reasons. But don't change what you feel works. I've seen Molly's fail, on fecals included, time after time. Only met a few people it seems to work for! May I ask what your problems with FM blend are?


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Molly's works for some people, I'm not really a fan for many reasons. But don't change what you feel works. I've seen Molly's fail, on fecals included, time after time. Only met a few people it seems to work for! May I ask what your problems with FM blend are?


She promotes wormwood as being safe for pregnant animals, while common school of thought is not to risk it. Molly includes it in the stronger formula but only recommends the mild one during pregnancy (hence the dual program.) My dad is a human herbalist and also thought a number of FM's other ingredients were either questionable or ineffective. He doesn't know goats but I trust his opinion on the overall properties of the herbs.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

I still conventional deworm as needed, I don't rely on the herbs alone. People who do - especially without fecals - may be complacent because they assume it's sufficient.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> She promotes wormwood as being safe for pregnant animals, while common school of thought is not to risk it. Molly includes it in the stronger formula but only recommends the mild one during pregnancy (hence the dual program.) My dad is a human herbalist and also thought a number of FM's other ingredients were either questionable or ineffective. He doesn't know goats but I trust his opinion on the overall properties of the herbs.


Wormwood has really only shown to be concerning in large amounts, especially the fresh plant rather than dried herb in small dosages. I can assure you that FM's formula has been used on many pregnant does and has never caused any problems. As for the ingredients argument, I'm not really sure how you could say that the ingredients could be questionable or ineffective, when Molly's formula lacks most ingredients...
Looking at the ingredients of Molly's:
*Garlic* - ineffective when dried, so nope on that one.
*Cucurbita Pepo* - acorn squash. Things in the pumpkin/squash family have been known to fight tapeworms effectively but tend to fall short with other parasites.
*Mugwort* - mugwort is an artemisia, wormwood is technically a type of mugwort. Mugwort is cautioned for use in pregnancy due to possibility of causing miscarriages equally to wormwood. But again, I am not scared of these herbs when used correctly in correct formulations.
*Fennel *- Helpful, but not the strongest anti-parasitic out there
*Hyssop* - also helpful
*Thyme* - also helpful

So that's really all for the formula used weekly. Barely any ingredients, let alone helpful ones for serious infections of barberpole or coccidia. Nothing there is going to adequately fight protozoans, other than aiding in some immune support which MAY boost a goat enough to fight them.

Formula with wormwood:

*Wormwood* - effective wormer, still has its limits and will not target all gi nematodes or protozoans.
*Garlic* - again, dried is really not going to be very helpful
*Fennel* - okay
*Black walnut* - quite strong, actually, and I would be more concerned of the use of this than wormwood any day. But it does a good job, and does help fight protozoan cocci. However, given that it is not used frequently this formula, it would not be able to fight serious cocci, as their life cycles require a really frequent dosage of herbs to fight.

So now looking at FM:

*Cayenne* - a really great catalyst herb that is going to improve the effectiveness of all other herbs, while also fighting GI strongyles well AND helping with the internal hemorgahing they cause.
*Clove* - amazing wormer especially for barberpole and coccidia. Even hits tapeworms hard.
*Fennel* - good
*Garlic* - again, really not doing much good but everyone seems to just throw it in there anyway, lol
*Ginger* - amazing to fight barberpole and coccidia
*Hyssop* - helpful
*Mullein* - helpful
*Thyme* - helpful
*Wormwood* - as we've discussed above, many studies have shown this to only have an abortive effect in large amounts, and lets not forget about the lack of studies on goats themselves, with their fast metabolisms we have no idea the full extent of wormwood it would take to cause problems, it could be a ton! So we have to go off of experiences, and notice that even when this herbal formula is given at triple dose every 3 hours, I have never seen problems.
*Cinnamon* - so so important to fight stomach worms and coccidia.
*Turmeric* - helpful
*Slippery elm bark* - soothing and healing post-worm infection, and helpful in the process of expelling worms.

Last three ingredients are from the GI Soother formula, not the DWA formula.

So you can see the big difference, there are so many more ingredients in FM than molly's, specially ingreidents that are more in-tune with the battles we face with goat parasites.

Molly is not a master herbalist, and if you contact Kat from FM or Kristie from Land Of Havilah's, you'll understand that master herbalists know that properly formulating an herb mix for goats is important. I wouldn't use Molly's wormwood formula on a pregnant doe, because I wouldn't have trusted her to formulate it correctly. But then again, she put mugwort her formula which can cause the same issues, and I'm guessing it hasn't caused any... because of the same argument as wormwood, the amounts of it dried in an herb mix are miles away from it in a tincture or fresh form which I wouldn't ever use.

For reference, this is Land of Havilah's wormer ingredients list:

Black Walnut (wildcrafted)
Cayenne (organic)
Chaparral (wildcrafted)
Cinnamon (organic)
Clove (organic)
Garlic (organic)
Ginger (organic)
Hyssop (organic)
Lobelia (organic)
Male Fern (wildcrafted)
Mullein (wildcrafted)
Bitter Orange (wildcrafted)
Pau ‘D Arco (wildcrafted)
Thyme (organic)
Turmeric (organic)
Wormwood (organic)
Yarrow (wildcrafted)
Also completely safe for pregnant does.

I'm not trying to change your mind about using Molly's because if it's working for you, why would you switch. Don't, lol! But I do feel the need to explain why wormwood in these formulas is not irresponsible or incorrect, and I wanted to point out to you that what you are giving already could cause abortions in pregnant does... but has it? No? Just my two cents.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Wormwood has really only shown to be concerning in large amounts, especially the fresh plant rather than dried herb in small dosages. I can assure you that FM's formula has been used on many pregnant does and has never caused any problems. As for the ingredients argument, I'm not really sure how you could say that the ingredients could be questionable or ineffective, when Molly's formula lacks most ingredients...
> Looking at the ingredients of Molly's:
> *Garlic* - ineffective when dried, so nope on that one.
> *Cucurbita Pepo* - acorn squash. Things in the pumpkin/squash family have been known to fight tapeworms effectively but tend to fall short with other parasites.
> *Mugwort* - mugwort is an artemisia, wormwood is technically a type of mugwort. Mugwort is cautioned for use in pregnancy due to possibility of causing miscarriages equally to wormwood. But again, I am not scared of these herbs when used correctly in correct formulations.
> *Fennel *- Helpful, but not the strongest anti-parasitic out there
> *Hyssop* - also helpful
> *Thyme* - also helpful
> 
> So that's really all for the formula used weekly. Barely any ingredients, let alone helpful ones for serious infections of barberpole or coccidia. Nothing there is going to adequately fight protozoans, other than aiding in some immune support which MAY boost a goat enough to fight them.
> 
> Formula with wormwood:
> 
> *Wormwood* - effective wormer, still has its limits and will not target all gi nematodes or protozoans.
> *Garlic* - again, dried is really not going to be very helpful
> *Fennel* - okay
> *Black walnut* - quite strong, actually, and I would be more concerned of the use of this than wormwood any day. But it does a good job, and does help fight protozoan cocci. However, given that it is not used frequently this formula, it would not be able to fight serious cocci, as their life cycles require a really frequent dosage of herbs to fight.
> 
> So now looking at FM:
> 
> *Cayenne* - a really great catalyst herb that is going to improve the effectiveness of all other herbs, while also fighting GI strongyles well AND helping with the internal hemorgahing they cause.
> *Clove* - amazing wormer especially for barberpole and coccidia. Even hits tapeworms hard.
> *Fennel* - good
> *Garlic* - again, really not doing much good but everyone seems to just throw it in there anyway, lol
> *Ginger* - amazing to fight barberpole and coccidia
> *Hyssop* - helpful
> *Mullein* - helpful
> *Thyme* - helpful
> *Wormwood* - as we've discussed above, many studies have shown this to only have an abortive effect in large amounts, and lets not forget about the lack of studies on goats themselves, with their fast metabolisms we have no idea the full extent of wormwood it would take to cause problems, it could be a ton! So we have to go off of experiences, and notice that even when this herbal formula is given at triple dose every 3 hours, I have never seen problems.
> *Cinnamon* - so so important to fight stomach worms and coccidia.
> *Turmeric* - helpful
> *Slippery elm bark* - soothing and healing post-worm infection, and helpful in the process of expelling worms.
> 
> Last three ingredients are from the GI Soother formula, not the DWA formula.
> 
> So you can see the big difference, there are so many more ingredients in FM than molly's, specially ingreidents that are more in-tune with the battles we face with goat parasites.
> 
> Molly is not a master herbalist, and if you contact Kat from FM or Kristie from Land Of Havilah's, you'll understand that master herbalists know that properly formulating an herb mix for goats is important. I wouldn't use Molly's wormwood formula on a pregnant doe, because I wouldn't have trusted her to formulate it correctly. But then again, she put mugwort her formula which can cause the same issues, and I'm guessing it hasn't caused any... because of the same argument as wormwood, the amounts of it dried in an herb mix are miles away from it in a tincture or fresh form which I wouldn't ever use.
> 
> For reference, this is Land of Havilah's wormer ingredients list:
> 
> Black Walnut (wildcrafted)
> Cayenne (organic)
> Chaparral (wildcrafted)
> Cinnamon (organic)
> Clove (organic)
> Garlic (organic)
> Ginger (organic)
> Hyssop (organic)
> Lobelia (organic)
> Male Fern (wildcrafted)
> Mullein (wildcrafted)
> Bitter Orange (wildcrafted)
> Pau ‘D Arco (wildcrafted)
> Thyme (organic)
> Turmeric (organic)
> Wormwood (organic)
> Yarrow (wildcrafted)
> Also completely safe for pregnant does.
> 
> I'm not trying to change your mind about using Molly's because if it's working for you, why would you switch. Don't, lol! But I do feel the need to explain why wormwood in these formulas is not irresponsible or incorrect, and I wanted to point out to you that what you are giving already could cause abortions in pregnant does... but has it? No? Just my two cents.


It was a while ago so I don't remember all the details of his thoughts. I assume there's a reason he didn't think the mug wort in formula number 2 would be a problem. Number one is still intended to be given monthly to ones that aren't pregnant. I can attest that goats are definitely not sensitive to Black Walnut as mine will eat as much as they can get from my trees. She specifically leaves it out of the horse formula because of the risk for laminitis. 

I can definitely attest to the effectiveness of formula number 2 against tapeworms. For some reason last year they were a significant problem, when I've only had two or three cases previously in a decade. I had a doeling who hadn't shown any signs start passing massive piles of dead ones after a light dose of formula number two, which took upwards of two weeks to finally clear out. After that she filled out, lost her pot belly, and her coat was much nicer. I know they're not usually considered to be much of a concern but with all my other trouble I'm going to go ahead and treat them If I see them. I also followed up with safeguard for any that passed worms or had a heavy load on fecal. 

( please ignore typos, voice to text is not my friend.)


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Goats are not sensitive to black walnut, it is a great add to wormers, but has been rumored to cause just as many problems on a different side of the scale of wormwood. I was simply using it as an example of strong herbs that goats STILL do just fine with.


----------



## K.B.

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Wormwood has really only shown to be concerning in large amounts, especially the fresh plant rather than dried herb in small dosages. I can assure you that FM's formula has been used on many pregnant does and has never caused any problems. As for the ingredients argument, I'm not really sure how you could say that the ingredients could be questionable or ineffective, when Molly's formula lacks most ingredients...
> Looking at the ingredients of Molly's:
> *Garlic* - ineffective when dried, so nope on that one.
> *Cucurbita Pepo* - acorn squash. Things in the pumpkin/squash family have been known to fight tapeworms effectively but tend to fall short with other parasites.
> *Mugwort* - mugwort is an artemisia, wormwood is technically a type of mugwort. Mugwort is cautioned for use in pregnancy due to possibility of causing miscarriages equally to wormwood. But again, I am not scared of these herbs when used correctly in correct formulations.
> *Fennel *- Helpful, but not the strongest anti-parasitic out there
> *Hyssop* - also helpful
> *Thyme* - also helpful
> 
> So that's really all for the formula used weekly. Barely any ingredients, let alone helpful ones for serious infections of barberpole or coccidia. Nothing there is going to adequately fight protozoans, other than aiding in some immune support which MAY boost a goat enough to fight them.
> 
> Formula with wormwood:
> 
> *Wormwood* - effective wormer, still has its limits and will not target all gi nematodes or protozoans.
> *Garlic* - again, dried is really not going to be very helpful
> *Fennel* - okay
> *Black walnut* - quite strong, actually, and I would be more concerned of the use of this than wormwood any day. But it does a good job, and does help fight protozoan cocci. However, given that it is not used frequently this formula, it would not be able to fight serious cocci, as their life cycles require a really frequent dosage of herbs to fight.
> 
> So now looking at FM:
> 
> *Cayenne* - a really great catalyst herb that is going to improve the effectiveness of all other herbs, while also fighting GI strongyles well AND helping with the internal hemorgahing they cause.
> *Clove* - amazing wormer especially for barberpole and coccidia. Even hits tapeworms hard.
> *Fennel* - good
> *Garlic* - again, really not doing much good but everyone seems to just throw it in there anyway, lol
> *Ginger* - amazing to fight barberpole and coccidia
> *Hyssop* - helpful
> *Mullein* - helpful
> *Thyme* - helpful
> *Wormwood* - as we've discussed above, many studies have shown this to only have an abortive effect in large amounts, and lets not forget about the lack of studies on goats themselves, with their fast metabolisms we have no idea the full extent of wormwood it would take to cause problems, it could be a ton! So we have to go off of experiences, and notice that even when this herbal formula is given at triple dose every 3 hours, I have never seen problems.
> *Cinnamon* - so so important to fight stomach worms and coccidia.
> *Turmeric* - helpful
> *Slippery elm bark* - soothing and healing post-worm infection, and helpful in the process of expelling worms.
> 
> Last three ingredients are from the GI Soother formula, not the DWA formula.
> 
> So you can see the big difference, there are so many more ingredients in FM than molly's, specially ingreidents that are more in-tune with the battles we face with goat parasites.
> 
> Molly is not a master herbalist, and if you contact Kat from FM or Kristie from Land Of Havilah's, you'll understand that master herbalists know that properly formulating an herb mix for goats is important. I wouldn't use Molly's wormwood formula on a pregnant doe, because I wouldn't have trusted her to formulate it correctly. But then again, she put mugwort her formula which can cause the same issues, and I'm guessing it hasn't caused any... because of the same argument as wormwood, the amounts of it dried in an herb mix are miles away from it in a tincture or fresh form which I wouldn't ever use.
> 
> For reference, this is Land of Havilah's wormer ingredients list:
> 
> Black Walnut (wildcrafted)
> Cayenne (organic)
> Chaparral (wildcrafted)
> Cinnamon (organic)
> Clove (organic)
> Garlic (organic)
> Ginger (organic)
> Hyssop (organic)
> Lobelia (organic)
> Male Fern (wildcrafted)
> Mullein (wildcrafted)
> Bitter Orange (wildcrafted)
> Pau ‘D Arco (wildcrafted)
> Thyme (organic)
> Turmeric (organic)
> Wormwood (organic)
> Yarrow (wildcrafted)
> Also completely safe for pregnant does.
> 
> I'm not trying to change your mind about using Molly's because if it's working for you, why would you switch. Don't, lol! But I do feel the need to explain why wormwood in these formulas is not irresponsible or incorrect, and I wanted to point out to you that what you are giving already could cause abortions in pregnant does... but has it? No? Just my two cents.


So would you prefer FM or LOH over the other?


----------



## Goatastic43

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Wormwood has really only shown to be concerning in large amounts, especially the fresh plant rather than dried herb in small dosages. I can assure you that FM's formula has been used on many pregnant does and has never caused any problems. As for the ingredients argument, I'm not really sure how you could say that the ingredients could be questionable or ineffective, when Molly's formula lacks most ingredients...
> Looking at the ingredients of Molly's:
> *Garlic* - ineffective when dried, so nope on that one.
> *Cucurbita Pepo* - acorn squash. Things in the pumpkin/squash family have been known to fight tapeworms effectively but tend to fall short with other parasites.
> *Mugwort* - mugwort is an artemisia, wormwood is technically a type of mugwort. Mugwort is cautioned for use in pregnancy due to possibility of causing miscarriages equally to wormwood. But again, I am not scared of these herbs when used correctly in correct formulations.
> *Fennel *- Helpful, but not the strongest anti-parasitic out there
> *Hyssop* - also helpful
> *Thyme* - also helpful
> 
> So that's really all for the formula used weekly. Barely any ingredients, let alone helpful ones for serious infections of barberpole or coccidia. Nothing there is going to adequately fight protozoans, other than aiding in some immune support which MAY boost a goat enough to fight them.
> 
> Formula with wormwood:
> 
> *Wormwood* - effective wormer, still has its limits and will not target all gi nematodes or protozoans.
> *Garlic* - again, dried is really not going to be very helpful
> *Fennel* - okay
> *Black walnut* - quite strong, actually, and I would be more concerned of the use of this than wormwood any day. But it does a good job, and does help fight protozoan cocci. However, given that it is not used frequently this formula, it would not be able to fight serious cocci, as their life cycles require a really frequent dosage of herbs to fight.
> 
> So now looking at FM:
> 
> *Cayenne* - a really great catalyst herb that is going to improve the effectiveness of all other herbs, while also fighting GI strongyles well AND helping with the internal hemorgahing they cause.
> *Clove* - amazing wormer especially for barberpole and coccidia. Even hits tapeworms hard.
> *Fennel* - good
> *Garlic* - again, really not doing much good but everyone seems to just throw it in there anyway, lol
> *Ginger* - amazing to fight barberpole and coccidia
> *Hyssop* - helpful
> *Mullein* - helpful
> *Thyme* - helpful
> *Wormwood* - as we've discussed above, many studies have shown this to only have an abortive effect in large amounts, and lets not forget about the lack of studies on goats themselves, with their fast metabolisms we have no idea the full extent of wormwood it would take to cause problems, it could be a ton! So we have to go off of experiences, and notice that even when this herbal formula is given at triple dose every 3 hours, I have never seen problems.
> *Cinnamon* - so so important to fight stomach worms and coccidia.
> *Turmeric* - helpful
> *Slippery elm bark* - soothing and healing post-worm infection, and helpful in the process of expelling worms.
> 
> Last three ingredients are from the GI Soother formula, not the DWA formula.
> 
> So you can see the big difference, there are so many more ingredients in FM than molly's, specially ingreidents that are more in-tune with the battles we face with goat parasites.
> 
> Molly is not a master herbalist, and if you contact Kat from FM or Kristie from Land Of Havilah's, you'll understand that master herbalists know that properly formulating an herb mix for goats is important. I wouldn't use Molly's wormwood formula on a pregnant doe, because I wouldn't have trusted her to formulate it correctly. But then again, she put mugwort her formula which can cause the same issues, and I'm guessing it hasn't caused any... because of the same argument as wormwood, the amounts of it dried in an herb mix are miles away from it in a tincture or fresh form which I wouldn't ever use.
> 
> For reference, this is Land of Havilah's wormer ingredients list:
> 
> Black Walnut (wildcrafted)
> Cayenne (organic)
> Chaparral (wildcrafted)
> Cinnamon (organic)
> Clove (organic)
> Garlic (organic)
> Ginger (organic)
> Hyssop (organic)
> Lobelia (organic)
> Male Fern (wildcrafted)
> Mullein (wildcrafted)
> Bitter Orange (wildcrafted)
> Pau ‘D Arco (wildcrafted)
> Thyme (organic)
> Turmeric (organic)
> Wormwood (organic)
> Yarrow (wildcrafted)
> Also completely safe for pregnant does.
> 
> I'm not trying to change your mind about using Molly's because if it's working for you, why would you switch. Don't, lol! But I do feel the need to explain why wormwood in these formulas is not irresponsible or incorrect, and I wanted to point out to you that what you are giving already could cause abortions in pregnant does... but has it? No? Just my two cents.


This is very helpful! I’ve been secretly stalking this conversation lol. I’ve always wondered why some people found LOH more effective than Molly’s, but this makes total sense! Hope this isn’t off topic, but, would either be effective at preventing coccidia I kids? Any like @K.B. said, which is your favorite?


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

I prefer FM (both formulas combined, DWA and GI Soother). LOH falls short IMO sometimes. Great ingredients but lacks when it comes to coccidia especially in my opinion.

One of your best bets might be LOH combined with fir Meadow’s GI Soother. LOH in place of DWA. Up to you. GI Soother is non-negotiable for barberpole and cocci.

But I do believe it takes more than just an herb mix to form a complete natural deworming regimen.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Goats are not sensitive to black walnut, it is a great add to wormers, but has been rumored to cause just as many problems on a different side of the scale of wormwood. I was simply using it as an example of strong herbs that goats STILL do just fine with.


I'm not worried about strong herbs with them in general, only abortificants. I've used them for brush clearing so I've had plenty of experience with what they can tolerate that most other species don't - and what they can't 😕

I'll run this by my dad and see what he thinks.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

Coccidia has never been a big problem for me so it hasn't been a priority. Last year was the first time it's actually come up clinically, and only in a few animals (two of which were already compromised.) Blaming it on the toxic property like everything else. In the past every time I've suspected it fecal has only shown strongyles (in problematic numbers.) Molly says hers should work, but I have 40% Dimethox specifically for it so I went ahead with that and they cleared right up. If it was a regular issue natural prevention would be more important for me though, so I'd probably be tracking efficacy with Molly's.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Coccidia has never been a big problem for me so it hasn't been a priority. Last year was the first time it's actually come up clinically, and only in a few animals (two of which were already compromised.) Blaming it on the toxic property like everything else. In the past every time I've suspected it fecal has only shown strongyles (in problematic numbers.) Molly says hers should work, but I have 40% Dimethox specifically for it so I went ahead with that and they cleared right up. If it was a regular issue natural prevention would be more important for me though, so I'd probably be tracking efficacy with Molly's.


Hey no complaints here, if you're happy I'm happy, not trying to pressure you to change anything that works for your herd. Only providing info.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

We should probably try to keep this thread to minerals, though, out of respect for the original topic!


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> We should probably try to keep this thread to minerals, though, out of respect for the original topic!


Yeah, we can jump this over to my herd thread since we're mostly going over my problems. Certainly hijacked this one long enough!


----------



## toth boer goats

Oops, yes it went off topic.


----------



## Mom2bret

We are using purinal goat minerals but my 3 ND bucklings just don’t want anything to do with it so I went looking for a different kind to try our only local (50 mile radius) option for farm supply stores is Farm and Home. These two types are the only loose minerals they have

























The bottom list of nutrients is for the top picture. The other list of nutrients is for the same brand but just called fall and winter instead of spring.

Do either of these sound like they would be good? Or does it look like a road trip to somewhere else?


----------



## ksalvagno

No. Those would be bad.


----------



## Mom2bret

ksalvagno said:


> No. Those would be bad.


Because they are lacking in things or have too much of something? Just trying to learn what I should be looking for.


----------



## ksalvagno

Too much calcium. Not nearly enough copper. Compare it to your Purina mineral.


----------



## Mom2bret

ksalvagno said:


> Too much calcium. Not nearly enough copper. Compare it to your Purina mineral.


Thank you!


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

Mom2bret said:


> Because they are lacking in things or have too much of something? Just trying to learn what I should be looking for.


That Ca/P ratio is horrible even for cattle. It must be designed for a region or feed program that has unusually high phosphorus. Neither the copper, zinc, or selenium would cut it for me even if it was a good source, and those are all inorganic which are poorly absorbed. Purina is a slightly better balance but still inorganic and low quality. My spoiled goats won't touch it. Could you ask your store if they're willing to special order something for you?


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## Mom2bret

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Could you ask your store if they're willing to special order something for you?


I will ask but they have never done that before. The ones I listed are the only minerals they have at any of the farm stores around here. I did find a place that mixes their own but it had even less copper and selenium. I will keep checking. Thanks.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Mom2bret said:


> I will ask but they have never done that before. The ones I listed are the only minerals they have at any of the farm stores around here. I did find a place that mixes their own but it had even less copper and selenium. I will keep checking. Thanks.


Some things can be ordered online, but I expect the shipping would be pretty horrendous. Feed stores can just toss it on the truck with the rest if they can get it from the same area so their cost is much lower.

What stores do you have there? Are they chains or independent?


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## Mom2bret

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Some things can be ordered online, but I expect the shipping would be pretty horrendous. Feed stores can just toss it on the truck with the rest if they can get it from the same area so their cost is much lower.
> 
> What stores do you have there? Are they chains or independent?


in a 50-60 mile radius we have 6Farm &Home stores and 2 Farm King and 1 small independent store.The independent one said they couldn’t order anything special and I have calls in to the others. Waiting to hear back.


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