# Deforesting for pasture



## SamanthaB (Nov 15, 2013)

This is a question more for horses than it is goats, but I figured I would ask anyways... 
If you were to buy land in Connecticut and its all wooded. And then you decide that you want pasture so you deforest the whole area (leaving a few trees here and there for shade) how long would it take for the grass to grow, assuming that there isn't a giant mess left after wood cutting.
I know there are many contributing factors that go into this, but I just want a general idea or time frame of how long this would take (maybe per acre).


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Are there tons of trees next to each other or are the trees spread out a bit with brush in between?


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## SamanthaB (Nov 15, 2013)

I would say its pretty heavily wooded.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Even for horses I wouldn't deforest the whole thing. I would leave most of the biggest trees and clear them out so there is about 30 to 40 feet between trees in higher areas and about 20 feet between smaller trees in lower areas. If two or more trees are growing leaning on each other or inner-twined by the roots, you must cut both or leave both, they won't live without each other. 
Trees are very beneficial for the ground. Their roots hold the soil together and prevent erosion, they also help it resist compacting from the weight of the horses. The trees produce nitrogen and fungus that feeds your grasses and beneficial bacteria. Their leaves and bark improve the soil and they suck up standing water to prevent mud. 
Pick healthy well formed trees to save. Look for nice shape, spreading branches that grow up instead of sagging. Later I can help you prune your keepers to improve their health. Oaks, Birch, Ash, are great. Avoid Maples, wild cherries, etc. 
After thinning throw your grass seed mix out after the first freeze and right before a good snow. The snow will hide it from birds and will work it into the ground for you as it melts. Keep the seed in an unheated shed outside until use so it is used to the temperature.


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## Karen (Jun 22, 2010)

goathiker said:


> Even for horses I wouldn't deforest the whole thing.


Thank you for that post - you articulated what I wanted to say quite nicely: Save the best trees, and have happy horses! And the filtered light from the trees in the summer will keep the grass from burning, too. Choose a mixed seed, for sun and shade ...


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## SamanthaB (Nov 15, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Even for horses I wouldn't deforest the whole thing. I would leave most of the biggest trees and clear them out so there is about 30 to 40 feet between trees in higher areas and about 20 feet between smaller trees in lower areas. If two or more trees are growing leaning on each other or inner-twined by the roots, you must cut both or leave both, they won't live without each other.
> Trees are very beneficial for the ground. Their roots hold the soil together and prevent erosion, they also help it resist compacting from the weight of the horses. The trees produce nitrogen and fungus that feeds your grasses and beneficial bacteria. Their leaves and bark improve the soil and they suck up standing water to prevent mud.
> Pick healthy well formed trees to save. Look for nice shape, spreading branches that grow up instead of sagging. Later I can help you prune your keepers to improve their health. Oaks, Birch, Ash, are great. Avoid Maples, wild cherries, etc.
> After thinning throw your grass seed mix out after the first freeze and right before a good snow. The snow will hide it from birds and will work it into the ground for you as it melts. Keep the seed in an unheated shed outside until use so it is used to the temperature.


Thank you so much for your response, I don't know a whole lot about this kind of stuff, so I'm trying to get a lot of research done. Of course, this project wouldn't be occurring any time soon...


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

The level of mess depends on what you plan on doing with the stumps. If you have them pulled up, its going to make a huge mess. If you have them ground down, it will be less of a mess but you will have to deal with a bunch of spots that will not have the best root base for the grass as the soil will be thin. I personally like to have a small thicket of trees in each pasture, like 3-5 trees, and the rest be grass and open space.


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## Allison (Dec 22, 2015)

I'm interested in this question as well.

We just deforested part of our land for our goat pasture. Still has lots of trees and bushes. The ground though from all the pine needles and leaves it really soft, kind of like bedding, hardly any dirt, For at least 5 ft down. I want to put seed out eventually but I don't know how the ground will take it.

Is the ground your forest is in, really soft ground? That is mainly decomposing leaves?


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## SamanthaB (Nov 15, 2013)

Allison said:


> I'm interested in this question as well.
> 
> We just deforested part of our land for our goat pasture. Still has lots of trees and bushes. The ground though from all the pine needles and leaves it really soft, kind of like bedding, hardly any dirt, For at least 5 ft down. I want to put seed out eventually but I don't know how the ground will take it.
> 
> Is the ground your forest is in, really soft ground? That is mainly decomposing leaves?


The address is 2 Kimberly lane, Woodbury, Connecticut. No house, no open space, all forest. You can see the property lines on google maps, I haven't actually visited the site. It's about 80 acres, I don't want to remove all the trees in the area, but maybe ~24 acres worth.

Again this isn't something that is actually going to happen within a year or two, I saw the listing, my mother loved it, and it shows promise, so I got excited and decided to research this... Although even if I didn't get the property this question would still help when we look at others.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I have a few friends who have undertaken this in CT - after seeing how difficult it is, I would personally recommend finding a property that already has some open pastures/meadows/land. 

Getting the stumps out or grinding them down can be very expensive to bring in the heavy equipment. Then the soil will need to be amended for pasture growth (especially if it is primarily evergreen/pine forest). Then you come to realize just how many stones there are in New England! And then after you finally get ALL that finished, you have to pay for fencing. It's a real bear of a project. 

If it were early growth forest with trees less than 6" diameter, it would be much much more doable - that land was likely to have been in agriculture not too long ago. 

Of course, there just is not a ton of cleared land in CT. 150 years ago I think the state was something crazy like 85% cleared, and now it is like 60% forested!


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## Karen (Jun 22, 2010)

SalteyLove said:


> Then you come to realize just how many stones there are in New England! And then after you finally get ALL that finished, you have to pay for fencing. It's a real bear of a project.
> 
> If it were early growth forest with trees less than 6" diameter, it would be much much more doable - that land was likely to have been in agriculture not too long ago.
> 
> Of course, there just is not a ton of cleared land in CT. 150 years ago I think the state was something crazy like 85% cleared, and now it is like 60% forested!


Yes, our soil does tend to "grow stones" best of anything! But yes, the diameter of the trees is always important to gauge ... I so adore old growth forest, rare as it is, but the new stuff is patently obvious when you look! There's a lot of that here in Massachusetts as well.


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## Steampunked (Mar 23, 2015)

Allison said:


> We just deforested part of our land for our goat pasture. Still has lots of trees and bushes. The ground though from all the pine needles and leaves it really soft, kind of like bedding, hardly any dirt, For at least 5 ft down. I want to put seed out eventually but I don't know how the ground will take it.


I am kinda putting on my permie hat here, but also my enviro science hat. Please take my advice as you will, and I hope I don't offend anyone.

Goathiker has good advice. As someone who works for climate science, you really want as many trees as possible in catchment areas too - inconvenient as it is, they are sort of like pumps and veins for water as well as purifiers and general indication of long term issues like salt or water table problems. If too many farmers eradicate too many trees, you will gradually degrade the land long term (you'll murder that topsoil fast though), and it's impossible to note which tree removal will be the straw that will break the camel's back.

You also want a fairly diverse planting - trees have more pollen and nectar than flowers over time, which brings in more bees, which helps pasture stay healthy, so...it's kind of complex. The more you can set up a balanced cycle the better. Many trees will make excellent forage for goats long term, such as pigeon pea - that one will also drop pods for your use. There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with running trees you can use in multiple ways - coppice them, use the wood, plant things that fruit high up where goats have trouble reaching, plant things that are non-toxic who's flowers you delight in. Some types of oak have acorns that are even decent human-food.

As for pine needles, they will cause a lot less acidity with pines gone than they would have if they were rotting down from a continually refreshed base above. That is a huge amount of carbon in one place, adding nitrogen from your goat manure would actually balance it quite nicely. It should be a fairly good medium since it is friable and has air worked down a long way. It probably has an excellent micro-biome going on there, lots of species of beneficial fungi and bacteria.

If in doubt, Ph test that sucker, but I'd be betting somewhere between 6.5-7 on the scale, with very high compost for water retention.

If you can bear it, try to sow your pasture-to-be not just with grass but legumes and other crops in a varied mix. This will also avoid issues with one type of forage being wiped out by disease, and multi-part plantings make it harder for plant-predators to find enough food all at once, and cuts down on explosions of things like aphids or nematodes. Look at things that are water-wise and resistant to the predations of hungry teeth and hard hooves.

Actually, with that base, I'd go legumes first to lock in that nitrogen cycle asap. Your goats can eat many of the legume plants entirely - some of the human-style ones may be too rich for them, even (I assume a more goat sensible person can advise).

I'm going to assume pines aren't the DEATH they are in Australia - many of our big trees are very shallow rooted, and pines gobble all the available water. Plus they burn like the dickens.


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## Karen (Jun 22, 2010)

Steampunked said:


> As for pine needles, they will cause a lot less acidity with pines gone than they would have if they were rotting down from a continually refreshed base above. That is a huge amount of carbon in one place, adding nitrogen from your goat manure would actually balance it quite nicely. It should be a fairly good medium since it is friable and has air worked down a long way. It probably has an excellent micro-biome going on there, lots of species of beneficial fungi and bacteria.
> 
> If in doubt, Ph test that sucker, but I'd be betting somewhere between 6.5-7 on the scale, with very high compost for water retention.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I was going to mention pH testing.

Pine forest here in New England is quite common, and healthy. There are pine trees in the woods behind the house I grew up in that I could not get my arms all the way around. Grass doesn't grow beneath them, but plants that adjust the pH level are ket once the trees are gone. We have a lot more moisture in general than you do in Australia, and rarely have forest fires in the NorthEast. Pines do burn explosively when they burn, but it just doesn't happen often here, and doesn't spread like it would in the more arid areas of the country and world.


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## Allison (Dec 22, 2015)

Steampunked said:


> I am kinda putting on my permie hat here, but also my enviro science hat. Please take my advice as you will, and I hope I don't offend anyone.
> 
> Goathiker has good advice. As someone who works for climate science, you really want as many trees as possible in catchment areas too - inconvenient as it is, they are sort of like pumps and veins for water as well as purifiers and general indication of long term issues like salt or water table problems. If too many farmers eradicate too many trees, you will gradually degrade the land long term (you'll murder that topsoil fast though), and it's impossible to note which tree removal will be the straw that will break the camel's back.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information. I am really new to all this and was curious as well if we should take out more trees for the goats to have more area. We live in the PNW so even though I say we "de forested" we still have Soo many trees. Like every 4 feet there is a tree. 
But what you said about the trees being kind of veins makes sense. There is super good drainage from the mulch from the leaves and then all the roots and uneven terrain. That's one of the reasons it will be a good place for goats I think since the urine will drain down. The ground up there is solo soft because it's basically compost.

Thanks for giving me the science of it. I'm not going to be taking out any more trees! Also th more trees I take out the less food for the goats.. And they would rather have food then open space.... Weirdos!


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## RichV (Jun 2, 2013)

I'm not sure what your schedule is, but my family used goats to clear woods for horse/cattle pasture back when they still farmed with horses. If tending goats is your thing it may be fun to spend a season with them clearing out the underbrush. If you have mature hardwood trees you should have a forester make sure you keep the right trees and to get you paid if you have enough timber value to be worth bringing in a logging crew to take out the saw logs that are ready to harvest.


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## SamanthaB (Nov 15, 2013)

RichV said:


> I'm not sure what your schedule is, but my family used goats to clear woods for horse/cattle pasture back when they still farmed with horses. If tending goats is your thing it may be fun to spend a season with them clearing out the underbrush. If you have mature hardwood trees you should have a forester make sure you keep the right trees and to get you paid if you have enough timber value to be worth bringing in a logging crew to take out the saw logs that are ready to harvest.


I was actually thinking of using my pigs for that sort of purpose, I don't mind having to lay out seeds afterwords as long as the job gets done.


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