# Disbud or not?



## Goat Luvr (May 3, 2012)

So I just tried to dehorn my doelings (ND) with Dr. Naylors Dehorning Paste. I will never use that stuff again! I did Belle but ended up taking the stuff off after just a few minutes. And the paste went straight in the trashcan. So my question now is: Should I disbud them with the iron or just let them keep the horns? Since Belle had the paste on for a few minutes will that deform the horns?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Glad you threw the paste away. I take it you don't want horns...so in that case...i'd have them disbudded. I would imagine the paste will cause some sort of horn deformity being on for a few minutes or may not be too odd looking. I'm not positive...never used the stuff. See if you can find a breeder to help disbud them for you if you aren't sure how. Be very careful choosing a vet to do this if you decide to go that route.


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## Goat Luvr (May 3, 2012)

Yeah, I really don't want horns but after seeing Belle's reaction to the paste I'm worried about using an iron on them. Though the iron will be a lot quicker. onder: How much of a dislike is there for horns on nigerian dwarfs?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Well most people don't want horns on their nigerians. You can't show them with horns...they can be a bit unsafe for those interested in pets...they can get in the way for those who want to milk. I disbud all my kids (with a few exceptions) and i've had very few buyers interested in horned nigerians. The paste is probably worse vs. quick disbudding iron. The iron goes on, burns the buds and your done, kids generally go right back to normal...the paste has to stay on and slowly eat away at the buds. I wouldn't use anything but a disbudding iron personally.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I would go ahead and disbud. It is very hard while you're doing it but it is only a few seconds each horn, then they're hopping and skipping back to normal.


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## pdpo222 (Jun 26, 2011)

Personally I love horns. If I'm keeping the kid for me it will have horns. You just learn to work around them. 4 H doesn't allow horns so the ones I don't keep regretably won't be horned. I don't care how much I hear how it doesn't hurt. Putting a hot iron on your head has to hurt. No need to tell me why it doesn't. I read it all. lol


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I won't say it doesn't hurt -- it does, but only for a few seconds.


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## RedGate (Dec 7, 2012)

I agree that is hurts, but as soon as they are done and back with the other kids or mom they are fine, the next day it's like nothing ever happened. I think it is more than worth it. Even just for their own safety with each other. When I had my boers they were always getting hung up in the fence. The first time I saw it done it was pretty tough. The more I do it the easier it gets because I can see for myself that they are back to themselves in little time. Plus I can show


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## WalshKidsGoats (Nov 27, 2012)

I would disbud them with an iron if I were you. I would recommend having someone doing it for you so you can watch and learn. Are there any breeders in your area that could help you with this? As other people have said, the kids are back up and running within minutes of having it done. Disbudding is one of my least favorite "goat" jobs but it is well worth it. 

www.walshkidsgoats.com
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Walsh-Kids-Nigerian-Dwarf-Goats/324321484319986?ref=hl


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## Goat Luvr (May 3, 2012)

Thanks y'all.
I guess I'll order the rhinehart x30 from Jeffers but with which size tip? Just a reminder this would be for ND doelings and, of course, future kids.  They have 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2.


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## winky (Jun 19, 2011)

This was and still is my number one animal welfare concern for goats. I watched several kids get disbudded by an experienced goat person and it horrified me to see those kids screaming while trying to escape from the pain. There is no amount of non-sedating pain killer that could block that pain. I will never do that to my kids. I talked to a very experienced goat vet in my area and she assured me she could do it under general anesthesia and the kids wouldn't feel a thing so I took all my kids to her last year. She gave them a general anesthesia AND a pain killer (for after they wake up) and the kids just slept while the vet took the time to do the job just right. They really didn't feel a thing during the procedure but there was some obvious discomfort later on in the day before I gave more pain meds. I was absolutely thrilled to know that I could have my goats disbudded humanely. None of my kids have scurs either. I plan to do the same thing this year. It was about $30 per goat which I realize is more than most goat people want to spend but I think most people waste $30 in a week on other things that are much less important. I would gladly give up a years worth of hot mochas in order to save my kids from that pain. If I'm ever in the position where I don't have the money to do them this one favor then I will stop raising goats. I highly suggest looking for an experienced vet in your area and ask them to do it for you. You won't be sorry.


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## WalshKidsGoats (Nov 27, 2012)

We have Nigerian Dwarfs too and at first we bought the rhinheart x30 with the mini goat tip.  BIG mistake! The mini tip is way too small for Nigerians, we found out the hard way... We had to buy a new X30 iron with the regular sized tip and it works great for Nigies  Good luck!

www.walshkidsgoats.com
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Walsh-Kids-Nigerian-Dwarf-Goats/324321484319986?ref=hl


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

You want a 1/2 inch tip for nigerians.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

KW Farms said:


> You want a 1/2 inch tip for nigerians.


Thats the one I use... hardest part for me was being able to hold the iron on long enough but it's over in seconds and kids fair well, I do have horned goats as well BUT I have found that there isn't very many people out there willing to go to the lengths it takes to keep horned goats safe and happy so I disbud unless a deposit is received to keep the horns


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## Goat Luvr (May 3, 2012)

*Not happy.*

So there is a vet about 20 minutes from us that disbuds goats we just have to bring a iron with us. No biggie. I ordered the x30 with the 1/2" tip and made an appointment for this morning. So I take the girls in, they take the iron and one of the babies back and then they come back and say that they can't do it because the tip is too big.:angry: I tried to explain to them everything y'all had told me about the size tip plus what I read on other threads but they wouldn't do it. They said to send it back in and get the x30 with the 1/4" tip! :veryangry: So obviously I'm going to exchange it but what if that tip doesn't work? This is a very good example of why I like animals more than people.


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## fd123 (May 29, 2012)

Hey Goat Luvr...Someone had a dis-budding iron for sale on here a while back for a sweet deal in the for sale thread..! And i can tell you from "PERSONAL EXPERIENCE" that alot of vets DONT HAVE A CLUE > when it comes to goats!!>> but for some strange reason they wont admit it!!! 
If these folks on TGS said that you need the 1/2" tip to do the job correctly..>>then thats what you need... In my opinion id be swapping vets instead of your iron...
BEST OF LUCK!!!


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## Goat Luvr (May 3, 2012)

I don't know of any other vets that disbud goats (doesn't mean that there aren't any though). And I definitely do NOT want to do it. I'm just not able to stick a hot iron to a goat's head. I'll let someone else do that.
Also, everyone please don't misunderstand. I am not trying to blame anyone on here on TGS. I'm just mad at the vet.
Hopefully everything will work out OK since there horns are really still very very tiny. I just better not find out that the girls got scurs...


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## RedGate (Dec 7, 2012)

I too would not swap that iron. Also, keep in mind that the longer you wait, the more that horn bud grows and widens. It's so much easier to disbud sooner rather than later if you can help it, I wouldn't want to wait for that other one to come back in. Is there maybe another breeder in the area that can help you? Vets unfortunately sometimes don't have the knowledge or skill that an experienced breeder would. You could even ask the vets office if they know any other goat people in your area, or you could try yourself. They're are so many tutorials with pictures and even videos on YouTube that can help you see what is like.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I feel it's just part of farm life personally and this is just my opinion. When you have pigs you castrate them. you don't take them to the vet or numb them you just do it. With horses cows and so on, disbudding is just part of life on a farm if you don't want horns..


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## pdpo222 (Jun 26, 2011)

I should raise Angora goats, they can either have horns or not.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Disbudding the first time is very hard, you have to just grit your teeth and get through with it. Biggest thing IMO is having someone STRONG to hold the head still. I wasn't able to hold the head still -- but my dad was and it made things much smoother.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I wouldnt be fussing around with changing the iron to suit the vet ... since you have the iron I'd just learn to do it myself!

I'm surprised at the nerve of the vet ... we will do it but you have to bring your own iron ... oh but not that iron ... this specific iron. FFS if they want to use a certain iron they should have one of their own. 

I would say you are at risk of getting scurs anyway, regardless of what iron you use, since you say they have tiny horns. In my very limited experience, the babies I did with tiny horns ended up with small scurs, the ones that I did that only had little bumps came out clean.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Our kids had small horns. You can tell they have a bit of growth, but it's not bad


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## Goatieberries (Jan 8, 2013)

As long as the tiny horn fits inside the little hole in the middle of the iron and you can still apply a little pressure all the way around you should be able to still avoid scurs. I agree that I would keep the iron with the larger tip. I got one second hand with the smaller tip and it is not quite big enough to completely avoid tiny scurs. I plan on getting one with the larger tip soon. I would personally see if I could find another breeder nearby if I were you to show you how to disbud and/or do it for you. I've heard horror stories of vets and de-horning. Apparently good goat vets are hard to find just like products specifically made for goats can be hard to find. If you can find another goat breeder to help with your disbuddings you should also ask them if they've found a good goat vet. You will want to have one if you can and finding one will be about the most important thing you can do as a goat owner and/or breeder. If you are a member of any goat registries you should be able to find contact info of registered breeders nearby.


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

If the vet doesn't have their own iron, then this isn't something they do regularly and I wouldn't trust them to do it right. As others have said, find a local breeder to help you.


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

Agreed, find a local breeder. I ran an ad on craigslist and picked the best option, and then went and inspected his herd and saw the ones he had disbudded. He just did my doeling a few weeks ago and he did a super wonderful job.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

fd123 said:


> And i can tell you from "PERSONAL EXPERIENCE" that alot of vets DONT HAVE A CLUE > when it comes to goats!!>> but for some strange reason they wont admit it!!!


So, I have a bit of a concern about this. When I was deciding whether or not to disbud this was one of the things that really worried me and here, after almost a year of thinking it over, is what I've come to.

In the event that your vet doesn't have a clue, they do have a great deal of training in animal physiology, pain response and pain management. They're also the person you can go back to in the event your attempt to disbud results in scurs. If you are using a vet who has a farm based practice, few of us have their level of experience with livestock in general. Yes, we may have years of experience doing all sorts of things but they did learn a thing or two in school - as well as having their years of diverse experience.

When you're recommending that someone DIY, the chances are pretty high that the average vet has at least as much experience as the DIYer as well as meds, assistants etc. that the average DIYer doesn't have.

Also, when you elect to disbud through the vet, they have the means not only to sedate the animals but to provide a local anesthestic that can wear off over time. And to intervene if something goes really south. My experiences disbudding with the vet were good ones; my experience DIY with someone with some experience, not so good. And has resulted in the animals having scurs with no recourse except dealing with the scurs. I have never had an animal scur when done with the vet. not saying it doesn't happen/couldn't happen, just saying I haven't experienced it.

I hope this doesn't feel like flaming, I'm just constantly perplexed by the whole "vet with inexperience" thing when you're talking to an inexperienced goat herder.


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

I have no prefrence between doing it yourself and having a vet do it. However, coming from a family with quite a few vets in it, it is true that a lot of vets have no idea what to do when it comes to goats. They do not study goats in vet school and if they do it is only for about a week. They do not learn to disbud unless taking specific courses and then only on cows. Your best bet if you do not want to do it yourself is to contact other goat owners in the area and find out what vet they use and the sucess rates they have had with that vet. You really do have to luck out to find a good goat vet!!!! 

Also, I have never heard of a goat vet using an iron... has anyone else?

Good luck!!!!


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

IrishRoots said:


> However, coming from a family with quite a few vets in it, it is true that a lot of vets have no idea what to do when it comes to goats.


Hey IrishRoots - my point was that a (good) vet with limited/no experience still has more options and experience in general than a goat herder also with limited/no experience. As well as pain relief for the kid.

My vet was pretty up front that he took one goat elective in uni and has learned the rest on the job - just like we do.

I just struggle with the intimation that vets somehow know less than an inexperienced non-vet.


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

My main point was that I would still trust a breeder that had been raising healthy goats for years over a vet that has never on only seldom worked on goats. I have three vets in the family who have no idea how to work on goats. And from experience working at the vet clinic, I have seen inexperienced vets do way more harm than good. A good vet, like yours, will admit that they do not have much goat experience, but alot of them won't. Plus you can always get pain medicine from your vet to give to your babies if you are so inclined


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

My first vet does use an iron, he has his own though. He is quick, efficient, and does a very good job. He also removes the scent glands on my wethers. They never have that slight bucky smell that some can get. He does many many baby goats yearly and is also reasonable for blood draws, fecals, and such. 
My second vet is better at the technical then the hands on. He will sell me anything I need drugwise, does my health certificates, and does my yearly farm visit.

In the OP's case, finding an experienced breeder may be their best bet.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I'm in the minority. I have chosen to go the natural route and not disbud. I could change my mind in the future but for now.... I like horns.

But if I did, I'd go the vet route and put them under slighty.


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## winky (Jun 19, 2011)

In the UK only veterinarians are allowed to disbud goats and they must use anesthesia. The UK is far more advanced when it comes to animal welfare ligislation. Someday it will be illegal in the US to disbud or castrate goats without anesthesia and I will consider this significant progress in the way we treat farm animals in this country.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

IrishRoots said:


> My main point was that I would still trust a breeder that had been raising healthy goats for years over a vet that has never on only seldom worked on goats.


LOL IrishRoots- we're not actually disagreeing. My point was specific to new people doing it.

I am a bit confused why if it's not (and if not why not) like other professions where you can only dp what you're trained in.

I personally prefer the UK model


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

arguable -- we also still perform circumcision on human male infants without anesthesia (and ditto for other minor procedures) -- because the risk of complications from anesthesia exceeds the (presumed) minimal short-term pain. Human doctors are required to tell you the risks of anesthesia - in my experience vets never do -- even though the risk for small animals is demonstrably much higher. Every species has different tolerances and even within a species the individual variation in tolerance can be large. Getting the dosage right for an infant animal of a species you haven't worked with much is difficult.

And while an experienced vet is definitely more qualified to perform disbudding, a vet who has little experience with goats or that specific procedure is likely to do far worse than the experienced breeder who's done it on dozens of goats each year for 20 years. For most of us, inexperienced vet (who has maybe done this once or twice) versus experienced breeder (who has done it hundreds of times) are the two choices we have.

Incidentally, I had my sinuses chemically cauterized when I was 8 (horrible recurrent nosebleeds). That's probably the closest a human comes to the procedure for disbudding. It was done without anesthesia - not even a local. I remember being scared at being restrained. I remember horrible burning pain. I also remember that by the time the restraints were back off (less than 2 minutes) it was just uncomfortable. And I remember the relief when I realized two weeks later that I hadn't had a nosebleed since.

I do like horns on goats. I wish that were more prevalent here. But I'm not sure horned goats and fences mix -- we had an angora wether get hung up on wooden stall last year -- whole head through the 6 inch gap at the top and his horns wouldn't let him back out. Found him in time, but he could so easily have hung himself. And I've also seen how horned goats and non-horned interact -- they know the difference and the horned ones -- even if initially sweet in an all horned flock -- turn into bullies. With so many people here dehorning (required for show and 4H) its hard to sell a horned goat (except angora and boer - where the show standards insist on horns). Reality is that long-term the dehorned ones have a much better chance at a good life.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

winky said:


> In the UK only veterinarians are allowed to disbud goats and they must use anesthesia. The UK is far more advanced when it comes to animal welfare ligislation.


I agree that in this particular realm, I feel they're ahead.


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## fd123 (May 29, 2012)

flannelberry said:


> So, I have a bit of a concern about this. When I was deciding whether or not to disbud this was one of the things that really worried me and here, after almost a year of thinking it over, is what I've come to.
> 
> In the event that your vet doesn't have a clue, they do have a great deal of training in animal physiology, pain response and pain management. They're also the person you can go back to in the event your attempt to disbud results in scurs. If you are using a vet who has a farm based practice, few of us have their level of experience with livestock in general. Yes, we may have years of experience doing all sorts of things but they did learn a thing or two in school - as well as having their years of diverse experience.
> 
> ...


The "KEY WORD" in MY reply was..." A-L-O-T "of vets. Not ALL VETS! I had a VERY BAD experience with a local vet that ended in the death of my favorite pet goat, and a high bill..Ive done a ton of reading, talking with seasoned goat owners, and am very active on many "Goat Forums". Not to mention owning goats myself for close to a year now. I consider myself "somewhat Knowledgeable" on the basics of goat care due to countless hours of reading, discussions, etc... but MOST OF ALL FROM MY HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE! EXPERIENCE CANT be bought at ANY vet school PERIOD.. One can read , and study until their blue in the face, but when it comes to actually hands on...>> Thats where HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE prevails. Id LOVE to find an EXPERIENCED, HONEST, and NOT KNOW-IT-ALL VET in my area,but to my knowledge one doesnt exist in my area! In my case if the vet wouldve been honest with me and said somthing like..."im NOT VERY EXPERIENCED with your situation when it comes to goats but...i will do everything in my power to try and help her". Then I wouldve had a decision to make.. on whether or not i wanted to "CHANCE/GAMBLE" on the life of my Beloved pet goat with a vet that has little EXPERIENCE/KNOWLEDGE when it comes to treating goats.. I was NOT GIVEN the opportunity to make that decision. I have ALOT OF RESPECT for someone that will just come out and say.. "I DONT KNOW" or "IM NOT SURE" ...REGARDLESS of what "TITLE" they have before/after their name! In my situation... I CHOOSE taking advice from people that have "Successfully" RAISED, and CARED for GOATS (hands-on), rather than "ROLLING THE DICE" with someone that sat in a climate controlled classroom studying from a book with a TITLE.
This is MY OPINION based on "MY EXPERIENCE"...


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## serenityfarmnm (Jan 6, 2013)

After reading several diff threads on iron vs paste, we were leaning paste. Can I ask her reaction? Also if your sure it was the paste or just being held still (which I have read they hate!)

Kim


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

I agree with FD. I also as a new goat owner was scared to try things myself and was told to use a vet because they at least had the medical experience. I had a bad experience with a vet who said they knew about goats but had no actual experience. (He led me to believe he had experience until afterwards when I outright asked). My goat died because of his inexperience and i believe use of my goat as a "guinea pig".

So, I want to say If the choice is newbie on their own or unexperienced vet, I would probably give the vet a try. But I can't because of my own experience as a newbie. If I had to do it over again as a newbie with no one around, I feel comfortable doing the research and learning myself and accepting the consequences - I'll do it myself. Basically, that's what an inexperienced vet has to do. Most vets do not have knowledge on goats, but have to learn hands-on or through research just like we do, and yes sometimes at the expense of the animal. I know the one I went to googled the symptoms and treatment after I told him what I thought was wrong. So why can't I take control of my own herd. That's why I chose to become experienced and read, read, read, and talk, talk, talk to more experienced goat owners.

If it's a choice between a newbie using an experienced goat owner and and inexperienced vet, I would always choose the goat owner. And for those saying an experienced goat owner can't have the same knowledge as a vet, you're right they can have more. But that's a whole other topic about self-education.


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## Goat Luvr (May 3, 2012)

serenityfarmnm said:


> After reading several diff threads on iron vs paste, we were leaning paste. Can I ask her reaction? Also if your sure it was the paste or just being held still (which I have read they hate!)
> 
> Kim


It was definitely the paste. I was just going to let her run around and play in the barn but she kept trying to scratch where the paste had gone so I held her since I didn't want the paste getting on her leg/hoof. Normally she likes being held but not then. I think probably because she wasn't allowed to scratch. And the screaming!  I don't know how that goat managed not to pass out.
Some people have had good experience with paste so if you think it would work for you you could try it once and see. Just because it doesn't work for me and my goats doesn't mean it won't work for you.


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## geonjenn (Oct 3, 2012)

When we got our first goats - two Nubian bottle babies (Lucy and Ethel), we made the naive and uninformed decision not to disbud, so now almost a year later, they have horns. Since that time, we've had to give away our boer doe because she was using her horns against our other nubian does that have no horns. We have since decided that it is best to not have horns and have had the four babies born here disbudded by experienced breeders. I HATE the disbudding and I don't think I'll ever do it myself, but they bounce right back and within a few hours it's like nothing ever happened. Yesterday, we had someone come and help us band Lucy and Ethel because no matter what, they're not finding new homes. We also banded our boer mix wether (Shorty) who was starting to get a little pushy with the babies and using his horns a little too much. Well, it's been less than 24 hours and I can say we will never band again if we can help it. Disbudding is the way to go. Lucy and Ethel cried for the rest of the day yesterday. Shorty did too, but he's not nearly as loud. We gave them each a shot of banamine just to try and make it a little easier for them, but I hate knowing they're in pain. And the pain of disbudding seems to be over much faster and seems much less traumatizing (maybe just to me).


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

All of my herd is currently horned and I have never had any issues with goats being hurt by the horns or me or my children. However, because I also want to sell show goats, babies are disbudded when requested. But after seeing it done and the smell and the pain I just can't see myself ever doing it. I've read a lot of threads on here about dehorning and found this thread http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f217/dr-naylor-dehorning-paste-good-bad-114725/
My new babies are due this month and they will be disbudded using the paste. It seems if it is done right, there's little pain and never any scurs which has been an issue with the iron. But it's a choice we all have to make on our own. You've got to decide what you are most comfortable with doing. I think I and my goats will do better with the paste, but I won't know until I try it.


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## Myles (Mar 4, 2013)

Are the horns considered a defense weapon for goats? If a goat could be a target for a dog, do horns give it a better chance of scaring the dog off?
I have 2 female one week old pygmies that I will take possesion of at the end of the month. I didn't even think of getting them disbudded until reading this thread. Maybe I'll do one and not the other.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Some think the horns give an advantage, personally I think not. My disbudded does HATE dogs and can beat the snot out of one easily. And if a dog is serious about eating a goat, it is going to do it horns or no horns. 

I dont think it is a good idea disbudding one and not the other.


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

I'd strongly recommend against doing one and not the other. I know folks who have horned flocks and those whose flocks are all without horns - neither seem to have trouble. But mixing horns and no-horns seems to always end in disaster -- the ones with horns eventually figure out they can use them to push the others around and do so.


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## Myles (Mar 4, 2013)

neubunny said:


> I'd strongly recommend against doing one and not the other. I know folks who have horned flocks and those whose flocks are all without horns - neither seem to have trouble. But mixing horns and no-horns seems to always end in disaster -- the ones with horns eventually figure out they can use them to push the others around and do so.


That's a good point. Now I'm back to being unsure on what to do.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I agree...either have both disbudded or leave them both horned...I have a mixed herd of horned and disbudded as well as polled, the baldies do know how to use their heads but the horned ones have an advantage and when a dispute gets heated enough they can cause issues.

All "new" goats here will be hornless, though I do like seeing them with horns and really hate disbudding, it tends to be easier to manage them when they are bald. I went to EXTREME lengths to ensure my goats with horns were respected and kept safe by using appropriate fencing....and keeping each one safe when someone started feeling aggressive. Duct tape comes in awesome colors and I think I've used just about each one on horns


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

In my humble opinion, disbudding is the way to go. Unless someone knows for certain that they will keep a goat for the
goats entire life, generally, it is harder to sell a horned goat. (Especially a dairy animal). At the local livestock auctions, 
90% of the adult goats have horns and are in poor shape. It almost seems like a death sentence to leave them on the goat. (In my area)

I hate causing pain to the little kids, but with a really hot disbudding iron and a box to hold them, disbudding can be done quickly,
safely and only causes a little pain to the kid. They usually squall because they are away from momma and trapped in a box!

In the big meat goat herds, horns are a different matter.


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