# Boer Doe Show Conditioning



## SVFBoers

Hi, I have had goats for over 2 years so far. I have been showing a little bit in showmanship over those 2 years. I know the basics, clipping, grooming, basic showmanship questions, etc. but recently acquired a new red boer doe that I want to take to some sanctioned shows and enter her in some breeding classes this next spring. I have mostly done showmanship in 4H and have never really been serious about conditioning a goat to have itself be judged, only me being judged on showmanship. This year I want to make an attempt to condition her into a position where she can place well judged against other goats. I somewhat know basics of conditioning as I show chickens, but I don't really know anything with goats. I would like to know how people get their goats so nice looking for show. My goat for showmanship was fat, very little meat or muscle, slow growing(about .1 lbs a day). I am looking to turn this doe into a nicely muscled doe with a good amount of cover and not so much of a belly. I can only find resources on market wether conditioning but to my knowledge market goat conditioning is a little different? 

Here is what I am doing right now:

Feeding free choice hay 
Free choice Dumor mineral block
Feeding Dumor goat feed 1 lb twice daily
Taking her out and walking her every weekend

I know this definitely isn't how you condition a show goat, obviously, so I am just stating it so you guys know what I am doing now and can advise what i should change. Thanks!


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## ksalvagno

You really should be giving her a loose mineral. They can't get enough from licking a block.


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## SVFBoers

ksalvagno said:


> You really should be giving her a loose mineral. They can't get enough from licking a block.


I have tried but it gets all clumpy and nasty when it rains. The block is able to stay intact.


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## catharina

You may have to put just a little out at a time. Some people put loose minerals in with the feed too.


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## SVFBoers

catharina said:


> You may have to put just a little out at a time. Some people put loose minerals in with the feed too.


I was going to put it inside but she doesn't spend time inside at all. Unless it is raining or she's going to bed. I find if I put it in the feed they eat around it.


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## odieclark

What mineral?

Our goats like manna pro goat minerals

Not sure how they vary, but they do like it and are doing well with this brand.

Goats are picky!

Also, moisture is and can be an issue. Must be inside by us, and of course poop and pee free!:?


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## goatblessings

I would try to speak with your extension office and see if they can come up with a mentor for you. Beyond that, she needs exercised daily, (up, down hills, etc - some people have them pull weights), no free choice hay - just measured amounts, up the grain a bit and monitor her condition, feed up high where she has to stand on her back legs. Just a few suggestions, good luck with her!


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## SVFBoers

I am feeding manna pro minerals too as a loose mineral. I'll make sure she gets the loose mineral one way or another. I am looking to get another feed. Dumor doesn't make good feed. Its ok for matinence but doesn't really pack on any weight. I will follow the instructions on the label for feeding. Usually those show feeds advocate feeding more than a couple pounds a day. I have heard the feeding up high part but the setup doesn't allow something like that. Thanks for the suggestion though. Also...I cant get out to see her every day to exercise her. Only once a week. Would it help her exercise if she wore a weighted chain around her neck? Just a thought.


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## Exponentialdolphin

You might want to switch feeds as well I feed Jacobys Red Tag Developer and it has worked wonders, if you can't get that in your area (it would be at a local feed store, not tractor supply) then try Purina Honor Show Chow, that stuff is pretty good as well. Also, don't work her to much before you've put some good condition on her, otherwise she won't gain weight like you want her to.


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## Jessica84

I wouldn't put a wight on her neck. Make her walk around. Feed on one end of the pen, water on another. Get things for her to bounce and play on. Making it so they have to step up to eat can be done. A feeder on the fence with any kind of blocks for her to put her front feet on. You don't need anything fancy. 
I'm really not sure about feeds, I suck at that. They only thing I do know is calf manna is awesome for putting on weight and is super high in protein. I think it's like 24%, but that is always my go to for things that need weight. 
Around here everyone just feeds their goats a grain only diet, I disagree with this big time but that's what they do :/


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## SVFBoers

I said I was going to switch feeds. I have never heard of red tag developer. The only feed store here is tractor supply. They have purina show chow. I want to try that. She already has stuff to bounce and play on but its hard for her to get that much exercise as her pen is about 8 x 16.


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## catharina

Following....would love to hear people's suggestions. Does she have another goat to interact with?


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## odieclark

*Purina*



SVFBoers said:


> I said I was going to switch feeds. I have never heard of red tag developer. The only feed store here is tractor supply. They have purina show chow. I want to try that. She already has stuff to bounce and play on but its hard for her to get that much exercise as her pen is about 8 x 16.


We tried purina for sheep and it was poor quality, and had to throw it out.

Mold was found in the bag. The mill we bought it from is reputable, but we have been skeptical of it since.

The feed may be grown in different areas though, and we didn't try the goat. Ours could have been an isolated incident, as well?onder:


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## -Indy-

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in as well. Background on my herd is my family competitively shows Boer goats around Illinois area in ABGA shows. With our focus being more towards ABGA shows, our animals tend to be more towards the fat side.

As far as feed goes, we use a local feed dealer with the crude protein level at 16%. We do try and feed between 2-4 pounds a day depending on how the does are looking. We have no set amount since at the end it comes down to how much the doe is wants to eat and what she currently looks like. Basically we try and feed enough that they have cleaned up everything from their last feeding, but also aren't starving when we go to feed again. Since we are not showing show wethers, our females do get hay in the evening only. We still want their intake to be as much grain as possible, so its often a flake of hay for a pen of females to share. 

We do try and exercise our females at least five days a week if not more. We just do sprints down the driveway with them until they are breathing heavy. In the evening, we sometimes let them out to run around until they are tired. Its nothing extreme, but we feel like it does make a difference.We do work them on a show chain several times a week as well practicing walking and setting their feet.


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## SVFBoers

Thanks for the advice on Purina. I don't want to be feeding moldy stuff...especially at $23 dollars a bag. The only stuff I could find at a dealer near me is Show-Rite Duncan Grower. It looks like some high quality stuff. I remember seeing an ad for it in the abga magazine one issue and it listed all the winners at grand island. The winners also had pics on the show rite website and they looked pretty good. Im no feed expert when it comes to goats but they look like they make good feed with good results. The grower has 16.5% protein and 3% fat. When I feed I just follow the instructions on the label for how many # per body weight and just dump it in the bowl. They're only 2 goats in there and the same size so they eat the same and don't waste it. 
I dont exercise her as much as I want to, probably only 1-2 times a week. Its hard with school and it gets dark at 430 pm here. In the summer its more like 3-4 times a week. What I do is I walk her about a quarter mile then make her sprint back to the pen for maybe 1/10 of a mile at full speed.


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## crazygoatlady_inthemaking

Purina show chow is a good feed in our experience. It is a little powdery sometimes depends where you buy, but that is what we feed all of our breeder stock. Our show goats get Purina Impulse in a silver bag when they are younger to pack on weight and then we switch to Show Rite which is higher in protein and the goats love it.


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## SVFBoers

crazygoatlady_inthemaking said:


> Purina show chow is a good feed in our experience. It is a little powdery sometimes depends where you buy, but that is what we feed all of our breeder stock. Our show goats get Purina Impulse in a silver bag when they are younger to pack on weight and then we switch to Show Rite which is higher in protein and the goats love it.


Right, I heard people typically bulk up their goats and grow them before adding on muscle and trying to get the right amount of cover. Makes sense. Both those feeds are available here in NJ so thats good!


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## odieclark

*Feed choices*



SVFBoers said:


> Thanks for the advice on Purina. I don't want to be feeding moldy stuff...especially at $23 dollars a bag. The only stuff I could find at a dealer near me is Show-Rite Duncan Grower. It looks like some high quality stuff. I remember seeing an ad for it in the abga magazine one issue and it listed all the winners at grand island. The winners also had pics on the show rite website and they looked pretty good. Im no feed expert when it comes to goats but they look like they make good feed with good results. The grower has 16.5% protein and 3% fat. When I feed I just follow the instructions on the label for how many # per body weight and just dump it in the bowl. They're only 2 goats in there and the same size so they eat the same and don't waste it.
> I dont exercise her as much as I want to, probably only 1-2 times a week. Its hard with school and it gets dark at 430 pm here. In the summer its more like 3-4 times a week. What I do is I walk her about a quarter mile then make her sprint back to the pen for maybe 1/10 of a mile at full speed.


I didn't mean to scare you off on the Purina! We chose it, for our sheep, as the breeder we got them from used this exact brand and they are great at breeding sheep and have awesome livestock! They do buy from a different mill, so perhaps the feed is made at different locations-and/or we just got a bad bag!:shocked: I can't say, tho we did have issues with this brand as well a few years back also. So, for us, it was the last time we will purchase it.

As you said, it is expensive, but they all pretty much are! Ugh!


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## SVFBoers

odieclark said:


> I didn't mean to scare you off on the Purina! We chose it, for our sheep, as the breeder we got them from used this exact brand and they are great at breeding sheep and have awesome livestock! They do buy from a different mill, so perhaps the feed is made at different locations-and/or we just got a bad bag!:shocked: I can't say, tho we did have issues with this brand as well a few years back also. So, for us, it was the last time we will purchase it.
> 
> As you said, it is expensive, but they all pretty much are! Ugh!


All feed is expensive, agreed. Even feeding just a regular feed that is necessary for them to grow and properly develop at this stage is $20.99 per 50 lbs here. That is why I take feed selections seriously. I want the right feed for my money! Not all feed is created equal.


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## Tenacross

I believe in feeding feed that has Rumensin in it. Most show feeds do.


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## SVFBoers

Tenacross said:


> I believe in feeding feed that has Rumensin in it. Most show feeds do.


You can't buy feed with it anymore. You need a prescription from a vet.


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## WhitePineBoers

Duncans Fat N Sassy is what we recently switched to after talking to an extremely successful breeder and fellow showmen. He really emphasized a strong feeding program to get does to look their best for show, as long as they had the correct structure to begin with. Since switching to Fat N Sassy, my doe has positively bloomed in my opinion. I recommend it, as well as getting good exercise to bulk up in that aspect. We do not limit hay to the show does, as it doesnt make much of a difference to us that they have it free choice. Also, if you're looking to get into the show world it helps tremendously to just go out and watch a show, or go to a sale to make connections with top breeders. Most are very friendly and more than willing to offer a few tips or pointers to someone who is just starting out.


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## odieclark

Hopefully I uploaded the correct photos, if not my excuse is my right eye is bad! This is a fact, as all is blurred-upcoming surgery again!

The mention of Rumenesin above, is what is in these bags of goat feed! Is this from now on banned without a vet script?

I have been reading that over feeding grain is pointless, as goats can only gain so much on grain, and still need a great deal of hay and dry mattter. Our goats appear overweight now, and likely we have overdone thee grain! 

Do any of you limit hay to the goats?.


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## crazygoatlady_inthemaking

Believe me expensive feeds work though. Show rite is hands down our holy grail of feeds for our show goats. It's $26 and worth every penny.


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## SVFBoers

WhitePineBoers said:


> Duncans Fat N Sassy is what we recently switched to after talking to an extremely successful breeder and fellow showmen. He really emphasized a strong feeding program to get does to look their best for show, as long as they had the correct structure to begin with. Since switching to Fat N Sassy, my doe has positively bloomed in my opinion. I recommend it, as well as getting good exercise to bulk up in that aspect. We do not limit hay to the show does, as it doesnt make much of a difference to us that they have it free choice. Also, if you're looking to get into the show world it helps tremendously to just go out and watch a show, or go to a sale to make connections with top breeders. Most are very friendly and more than willing to offer a few tips or pointers to someone who is just starting out.


I was looking at Fat N Sassy, Grower, and Fifty Fifty on the website. I thought Grower looked the best. Fat N Sassy looked to be something that you feed when you need more cover on a doe. Heck, it even has the word fat in the name. I liked the Grower's description the best, it looked the best overall for good cover and muscling but I could be wrong. Why did you decide to go for the Fat N Sassy over the Grower? Any reason or is that just what you have available? About the hay, everybody always says to limit it but I feed free choice. I'm glad to hear someone else who does it that way too. I dont want to give them a hay belly though. I might just see how it goes and then cut the hay for show season.


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## Tenacross

SVFBoers said:


> You can't buy feed with it anymore. You need a prescription from a vet.


I just bought some without a prescription yesterday. Rumensin (Monensin) is exempt from the new rules.


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## Tenacross

odieclark said:


> Hopefully I uploaded the correct photos, if not my excuse is my right eye is bad! This is a fact, as all is blurred-upcoming surgery again!
> 
> The mention of Rumenesin above, is what is in these bags of goat feed! Is this from now on banned without a vet script?.


Yes. That label says it has Monensin in it. That is Rumensin. It is not banned. If your feed store says it is, they are mistaken.


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## Jessica84

Just use the term rumensin, when you say medicated that's when they get all confused


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## WhitePineBoers

We personally chose the Fat N Sassy because it was recommended to us by a National Champion breeder, who had looked at our does at a show and said more fat cover could really help get them to the back drop. His does were impressive, and he had mentioned it's what most feed so we figured we'd give it a try. Pleased with the results so far, haven't thought about the grower in all honesty. I haven't had a problem with huge hay bellies, but our girls don't really gobble hay so.


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## SVFBoers

I'm having trouble believing people really feed medicated feed to adult does. I get feeding them to kids but really after 6 months medicated feed shouldn't be necessary, right? I mean, adult does have such a high resistance they shouldn't need medicated feed. Feeding medicated feed to adult does would, I'm guessing, build up resistance in coccidia populations.


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## Buck Naked Boers

We don't feed grain unless our does are feeding babies or near birthing. Just super high quality hay that's tested.

They are healthy and this doe in the photo is also fatter now...this is a pic from awhile ago. 
So I believe if they are kept healthy. Great hay minerals etc you still can raise show quality goats. Just my thoughts. I know not all will agree. I don't have milkers so I know it's different for breeds who milk.

Tami


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## SVFBoers

Buck Naked Boers said:


> View attachment 113334
> 
> 
> We don't feed grain unless our does are feeding babies or near birthing. Just super high quality hay that's tested.
> 
> They are healthy and this doe in the photo is also fatter now...this is a pic from awhile ago.
> So I believe if they are kept healthy. Great hay minerals etc you still can raise show quality goats. Just my thoughts. I know not all will agree. I don't have milkers so I know it's different for breeds who milk.
> 
> Tami


Thats a great looking goat. I was told by someone the exact opposite-no hay and all grain, haha! I guess everyone has their own perspective. Just as long as the finished result is good, you can't argue with the method really! And I'll bet your goats are healthier even. No hay isn't good for rumen function, I hear.


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## Tenacross

SVFBoers said:


> I'm having trouble believing people really feed medicated feed to adult does. I get feeding them to kids but really after 6 months medicated feed shouldn't be necessary, right? I mean, adult does have such a high resistance they shouldn't need medicated feed. Feeding medicated feed to adult does would, I'm guessing, build up resistance in coccidia populations.


You don't believe it? LOL. I assure you, they do. Most show feeds have rumensin. Rumensin also helps a goat's rumen function more efficiently to convert feed. There is zero withdrawal time.

You originally said: "I somewhat know basics of conditioning as I show chickens, but I don't really know anything with goats. I would like to know how people get their goats so nice looking for show. "

I am trying to answer you.


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## SVFBoers

Tenacross said:


> You don't believe it? LOL. I assure you, they do. Most show feeds have rumensin. Rumensin also helps a goat's rumen function more efficiently to convert feed. There is zero withdrawal time.
> 
> You originally said: "I somewhat know basics of conditioning as I show chickens, but I don't really know anything with goats. I would like to know how people get their goats so nice looking for show. "
> 
> I am trying to answer you.


Oh I'm not trying to doubt anything anyone is saying. I said that I didn't believe it not in a way to doubt your advice, but rather in a way to express my confusion on the matter. Sorry if that was unclear. I am grateful for your and everyone else's answers.

I know in poultry, no one feeds adult birds medicated feed. Medicated feed is strictly a chick thing. They don't even have too many adult medicated feed products, and even when they do, they always offer a non medicated version. Medicated feed with adult birds is just simply not a thing. Breeders don't even worm them. They just assume the birds have built up an immunity and if they were to get it they would have gotten it as a chick. Hence the reason for medicated feeds as chicks.

Now, I realize goats are entirely different. I get feeding kids medicated feed, I just am a bit confused as to why adults would need medicated feed if they are to have an established immunity. Seems to me like it would only serve to build up a resistance in the present coccidia population. But, I am still learning.

On the bright side it does make it easier for me if you feed the adult does the same medicated feed as the doelings. Then I can keep different aged does and not worry about one needing medicated feed and one needing non medicated feed.


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## Tenacross

SVFBoers:
You need to think of rumensin as different than other "medicated" feeds that may contain antibiotics to prevent illness etc. Although rumensin is a coccidiostat and has great value for that reason, it has other well proven benefits for ruminants. Did you know dairy cows, the very ones producing milk going to a grocery store near you, are fed feed with rumensin in it? Crazy right? It says right on the label of goat feed not to feed it to lactating does. It must be dangerous? I doubt it. But here is an article about feeding rumensin to dairy cows, a ruminant cousin of the goats. 
http://www.nutrecocanada.com/docs/lmf---dairy/rumen-modifiers-and-newton.pdf


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## SVFBoers

Tenacross said:


> SVFBoers:
> You need to think of rumensin as different than other "medicated" feeds that may contain antibiotics to prevent illness etc. Although rumensin is a coccidiostat and has great value for that reason, it has other well proven benefits for ruminants. Did you know dairy cows, the very ones producing milk going to a grocery store near you, are fed feed with rumensin in it? Crazy right? It says right on the label of goat feed not to feed it to lactating does. It must be dangerous? I doubt it. But here is an article about feeding rumensin to dairy cows, a ruminant cousin of the goats.
> http://www.nutrecocanada.com/docs/lmf---dairy/rumen-modifiers-and-newton.pdf


I didn't know that. I still have a lot to learn. I guess rumensin is a more toned down substance used for health benefits rather than a strong medication like corid. That, I imagine, would be not good to be feeding all the time. I don't plan on breeding my current does, so I wont have to worry about medicated feed while they're lactating. For lactating does, I would feed definitely unmedicated. But thats not what this thread is about. This thread is about conditioning for show. I had no idea that rumensin had benefits other than just prevention of coccidiosis. I guess that just makes the argument for medicated feed stronger.


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