# Calcium Carbonate Stones



## Hasligrove (Dec 10, 2008)

I guess it my turn for stones. My boys are all 4 years old, castrated late surgically, been raised on orchard grass hay with timothy occasionally, sweetlix loose minerals until about 2.5 then switched to a mineral block (due to some controversy of goats eating too much minerals with sweetlix) and pasture until about 2.5 and then more of a wooded forage like alder, fir, salmon berries (Southwest Washington State) and water of course. For the past year or 2 they have had a lot of tree bark too. Mainly alder since 2 or 3 times a year in the summer we cut down a few trees and throw the branches into their pen. They eat the leaves and strip the bark off the branches.

1st goat I was gone on vacation mid May (a really good reason you need to have a good relationship with your vet). I was lucky. The vet came over, took the goat back to the office, performed the surgery where they cut of the pizzle or end of the urethra, stayed one night for observation and returned the goat to my farm all while I was gone. The goat is doing fine now but we know more stones could be on the way. We were able to get the stone and it is a Calcium Carbonate stone.

While I was waiting for the stone analysis to come back I did the Ammonium Chloride Treatment of 1.5 t. AC to 20ml water (I used flavored) each goat for 7 days. Luckily this is easy for all but 1 goat will readily drink this right from the drenching syringe. Now that I know what kind of stone I know that AC will not dissolve the stone but using as a preventative might discourage new stones to form.

Well 2nd goat happen last night. Took the goat to the vet in am for surgery and thankfully all went well. The stone was lodged at the very end like the first goat and cut the pizzle off. (See the photo I attached). It was about a 3mm stone and there was no way it would have passed. My vet said the end of the goats urethra is the same size as a house cat. Poor things are just destined to have trouble. 

So Questions - Since I don't feed loose minerals to mix the AC in, how often should I do the 7 day drench? Every month? I like this better since I know each goat is getting their ration. Or is daily better? Is there a loose mineral recommendation to mix the AC in instead of sweetlix.

I was also told and will start to spray their hay with salt water. Any mixing ratios on that? Comments?

What about hay? The vet thinks orchard is to hot for them. Finding regular grass hay around here is hard since the cattle farmers all keep it for themselves. I think I found someone within ok driving distance with cheep regular old local grass hay. Hopefully it has been put away right since that is another problem around here with all the rain...moldy hay. But I also thought that grass hay is 1:1 ratio? I can't seem to afford the orchard anymore anyways. It's $18 a bale. We have been talking about getting rid of a few goats because its costing to much (I don't need 6) but this is not the way!

Thanks for any advise.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Here is a general table of feeds. Keep in mind, this is a general table and feed from one source will differ from another. Table should be used in a side by side with the other feeds listed and not as a table for a specific feeds % level, you are feeding to your animals.

:::::::: FEED ::::::::::::::::: CALCIUM (%) :::::::::::::: PHOSPHORUS (%)

Alfalfa hay, (midbloom)_________ 1.24 _______________________ 0.22
Bermuda hay, 29-42 days_________ 0,30 _______________________ 0.19
Oat Hay_________________________ 0.29 _______________________ 0.23
Orchardgrass hay, early_________ 0.24 _______________________ 0.30
Timothy hay, midbloom___________ 0.43 _______________________ 0.20
Barley grain____________________ 0.05 _______________________ 0.34
Beet pulp, dehydrated___________ 0.62 _______________________ 0.09
Corn grain______________________ 0.05 _______________________ 0.27
Oat grain_______________________ 0.05 _______________________ 0.34
Riuce bran______________________ 0.09 _______________________ 1.57


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

> sweetlix loose minerals until about 2.5 then switched to a mineral block (due to some controversy of goats eating too much minerals with sweetlix)


You are saying after you switched from sweetlix your wethers got stones?

I use sweetlix loose minerals for the past year.
I have never ever seen the goats pig out on them.

My sister uses mineral blocks (not sweetlix brand). And the goats eat them
up so fast she is running out all the time. I personally would not feed blocks for minerals. The ones I looked at have alot of molasses in them which goats seem
to love.

As I once said. When they blamed sweetlix as a whole for the stones.
I never could find out if it was the loose minerals or blocks they were useing.
I felt there was not enough documented data for an accurate assessment of the
situation.

I am staying with my sweetlix LOOSE minerals.

sorry you are having to go through this with
your goats.
Even if I am in the minority.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Have never believed in blocks. IMO they cant get enough of what they need from them and if by chance they try, most likely to put a great deal of ware on their teeth. With the loose mineral they get what the need and as they level out, they will only visit the source a couple of times a week.


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

Well, it helps if your goat will actually _eat_ loose minerals. Cuzco won't touch them, but he's often at the horse blocks. Whatever makes him happy, I guess.

I'm sorry to hear that you've had trouble with stones recently. I hope you can get to the bottom of it.


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## Hasligrove (Dec 10, 2008)

This is a great example of what drives me nuts about goat nutrition! There is no do A B C and you'll get D! 

My goats love the loose sweetlix. Not as much when I mix with ammonia chloride. I still worry that each goat is getting the right amount of AC with free choice. I'm going to drench with flavored water And AC for 7 days every 5 weeks as a preventative. AC won't dissolve calcium stones but might make them harder to form. 

The mineral blocks I get do last a long time so possibly they are not getting enough salt and minerals vs too much with the loose sweetlix. Salting the hay to promote drinking water would be a good idea. The thing I like about the mineral blocks is there is no calcium or phosphate. On the other hand it doesn't have selenium either so I have to supplement that. Although I usually buy eastern Oregon hay which I believe is higher in selenium. 

Too much contradicting info at times. :?


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

Got spooked today. Pig was pushing and when he peed it sprayed like a sprinkler rather than a hose. 

So I made an appointment for him at the vet. 
Gave him some vinegar and water and watched him closely. 

The next time he pushed briefly and then had a full stream, so I think he passed it.

I had kidney stones years ago, so I gave up soda and drink almost nothing but lemonade. I haven't had a problem since. The docs say lemonade doesn't do anything, but when I have stopped the lemonade for a short while, I'll get a pain in my kidney. So I'll eat lemons and drink lemonade and pickle and olive juice until the pain goes away.

So I think I'll start adding vinegar to the goat's water.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

You can make goat cheese and put it in a vinegar brine 

As for the salt on the food... if you are just doing it for a short time to make em drink, that might work. But would not suggest doing it all the time. Doesnt take to much salt to overload a goat. Had a lady who mixed our mineral mix with her loose grain salt and the goats nearly killed themselves going after the minerals by ingesting to much salt. A good mineral mix should only have around 50% salt if my memory serves me.

Could always take a sledge hammer to the block and bust it up for Cuzco  Though, whatever your doing seems to be working fine already.

On a side note, I understand your frustration with goat nutrition. Even at a researcher / scientist level, its the same way. Personally, even though we can all get on here and post what does or doesnt work for us, I believe goats are so environmentally sensitive to where they live, that they adjust to their area. What works for one person somewhere will not always work for another. Then you start throwing in things like breeds and bloodlines and there is just no set 1, 2, 3. As I suggest to buyers and fellow breeders alike, try everything and settle on what works for you.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

I think a big factor in stone formation that is often ignored is the water they are drinking. Some areas have a high calcium content in the water and no matter what the diet is, you are going to have problems without some form of water filtration.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Good point. Our water is lower then most in the area but still at 21 grains. Wish I woulda put all the water through the softener but just the house is. Which is the way its suppose to be done. Maybe ill put a softener in the milking parlor and re run my animal water that way... something to think about, thats for sure.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

Here is a chart I found online.
[attachment=0:66l73kwb]hardwatermap1.jpg[/attachment:66l73kwb]


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## Saltlick (Jun 12, 2011)

Does anyone know of an inexpensive way to remove calcium from the water? I am going to look at some off grid land with a year-round spring, but the owner said there is a lot of calcium in the water (which I guess never affected his horses). Has anyone had experience with filtration systems in extreme heat/extreme cold? Or is there another way?


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

Saltlick said:


> Does anyone know of an inexpensive way to remove calcium from the water? I am going to look at some off grid land with a year-round spring, but the owner said there is a lot of calcium in the water (which I guess never affected his horses). Has anyone had experience with filtration systems in extreme heat/extreme cold? Or is there another way?


When you find an inexpensive way, let me know. I'll gladly market it against the standard water softener.

There are magnetic "softeners" on the market, but actual tests give mixed results. Many of the skeptics wrongly use measurements of calcium in the water to debunk the claims of "softening" as though the claim was that they removed calcium, while ignoring the actual claim that they change the crystal structure of the calcium making it less likely to scale.

I have them on my system because I got them for free. (I am a skeptic) However, when we moved in, descaling the toilet tank had to be done every month to keep it working. After we put the magnets on, we've only had to do it a couple times in 20 years.

What effect a different calcium crystal in the water has on the formation of stones is completely unknown.

Their effectiveness is said to be dependent upon the velocity of the water through the magnetic field, so you would have to produce a head from the spring and flow the water through the magnets.

Borax has also been used for chemically treating water. It is used as a preservative in many parts of the world, but it's use in the US has been restricted. If you knew what you were doing you might be able to but a borax wash on the spring.

And there is reverse osmosis which uses expensive filters.

If you really wanted to get creative, you could build a "green house" type canopy over the spring which would use solar energy to distill the water. The collected water from the canopy would drain to the water trough. Technical difficulties might arise in the winter.


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## Saltlick (Jun 12, 2011)

Thanks for your reply. Wow, I was worried about that. The expense and difficulty. Interesting about the magnets, wish there was some way to test it on goats (without actually testing it on goats!) How do you water your goats? Are you just using the water treated with the magnets and if so, any problems so far? The horse trough on the land (which I haven't even seen yet, so who knows I'll even like it) is gravity fed by a line from the spring, so there must be some velocity there. I wonder if I could run a split line with the goat water going into a tank and just treat that water (sounds complicated though, and I would be getting a horse in the future and they drink a lot of water compared to goats). The greenhouse thing you mentioned is an interesting idea, but would be tough in the winter. I wonder how toxic borax is? I should look into that.

I see you're in SLC. This land I'm going to look at is in Nevada near the border of Utah in the Pilot Mountains. Very remote with the nearest neighbor being 3 miles away. The water is the only thing that worries me...


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I have been seeing commercials lately for a new softener. Not sure if its a revisit to the kind Bob spoke of but the talk of water came up and the rendy and will be on the look out for it on TV and will report it as soon... well, ill got take a look on the net real fast.... brb


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ok here is the difference between a water softener and a descaler (including magnets/filter) type unit.

A regular water softener runs the water through resin beads where the calcium and magnesium molecules switch places with sodium molecules, leaving the water soft. No scale in your pipes or on your body is left because the mineral that would form it is now gone.

The descaler does not remove the minerals but its electric charge changes the crystal structure so the hard scale does not form as quickly. Places where the water flows freely will not get a build up of scale. However, the water will still be "hard" and places where water sits, such as your hot water heater, will still get a build up of scale.

So, it would seem only the resin based softeners work to REMOVE the calcium. While the other method works in a flowing water area, hot water heaters would not be help. So a goat is still ingesting the calcium. Just not sure if a goats pipes close enough to water pipes


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

Saltlick said:


> Thanks for your reply. Wow, I was worried about that. The expense and difficulty. Interesting about the magnets, wish there was some way to test it on goats (without actually testing it on goats!) How do you water your goats? Are you just using the water treated with the magnets and if so, any problems so far? The horse trough on the land (which I haven't even seen yet, so who knows I'll even like it) is gravity fed by a line from the spring, so there must be some velocity there. I wonder if I could run a split line with the goat water going into a tank and just treat that water (sounds complicated though, and I would be getting a horse in the future and they drink a lot of water compared to goats). The greenhouse thing you mentioned is an interesting idea, but would be tough in the winter. I wonder how toxic borax is? I should look into that.
> 
> I see you're in SLC. This land I'm going to look at is in Nevada near the border of Utah in the Pilot Mountains. Very remote with the nearest neighbor being 3 miles away. The water is the only thing that worries me...


My goats drink the same water I do. It is very hard and just treated with the magnets. I lost one goat to stones. He had been castrated at 6 weeks. I have two other goats that were done early like that, but they have not had problems.

Borax does not have a toxicity index, and is used in pickling in many parts of the world. There may be long term effects like bone loss.

I used to run around Pilot peak. There's an old wooden pipe that used to supply Wendover with water from the springs there. And the little town of Pilot on the west side has a bunch of colorful people. Some of them have unconventional ways of avoiding taxes, interesting theories about their genealogy, and other reasons (sometimes paranoid and/or delusional) for wanting to be left alone.

There is a signal station at the top of Pilot Peak that was used to guide pioneers across the salt flats. The land out there doesn't support much wildlife. If you're looking at the east side of Pilot take care to check out the soil, and water availability. The soil is generally useless for growing anything, and the water rights may have been sucked up by the state and redistributed to Wendover. If the water rights aren't used for 3 years, they can be lost.


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## Saltlick (Jun 12, 2011)

I'd be worried about the sodium in the water after using a softener... hmmm.

The land with the little shack I'm interested in is on the west side of Pilot Peak, about 17 miles SE of Montello. There are some small trees (pinion or juniper?), and the guy who lives there has been there 6 years and drinking from the spring, which is supposedly on the property. Doubt he's got any water rights to it and of course the shack isn't built with permits, he lived up there with two horses and knows the "neighbors" in the area basically said if you don't draw attention to yourself the country pretty much leaves you alone. The owner definitely seems like a recluse. The only reason I'm interested in this land is the spring and it's up on the hill. I do realize however that without proper permits the county can come along and say NO. My biggest concern is still the calcium and the goats.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

10s if not 100s of millions of people and animals drink from softened water everyday. There is no need to worry about the sodium.


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## Saltlick (Jun 12, 2011)

OK thanks. I hate to sound naive about all this, but truth be told, I kind of am, so I appreciate all the advice I can get


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

"Methigel"
Any one here have any experience with this product.
I seen on another group I am on that they had positive results
from it.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

From what I have read about it, it does lower the ph level in dogs and cats well. BUT prolonged used has shown to cause calcium oxilate stones. So am not to sure how it should be used. A research into sounds warranted though.


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