# Doesn't anyone test?



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Looking for one more milker and its frustrating. I'm about to just throw in the towel. I ask "Do you test for CAE, CL and Johnes?"

I have sent out what feels like a billion of these questions and not once yet in the past month have I gotten back a yes. I usually get one of these:

"We're a registered dairy so I know we're clean"

"We show goats so I know we're clean"

"My goats look healthy, there is no reason to test"

"Of course my goats are clean!"

Sigh. One registered tested Alpine goat is all I want. Who would think that is too much to ask for?

-thanks for letting me vent. I needed to get that off my chest before I lectured someone about their herd of "Iknowtheirclean" goats.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Aww.. :hug: sorry.. I bet that is frustrating 

I know a Alpine farm in MAine... I'll PM you


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

A lot of people don't test. That is why it can be frustrating if you want to have a clean herd.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

LOL...I was one of those for along time..." I don't test because of too many false pos. false Neg. results" I held onto that reason until a friend told me the test arent perfect but they are at least something..and it is our responsibility to do our best to end the disease by having the information. A Goats can alway be rested if you are unsure of results.

For many, testing is scary..."What if they are Positive..what do I do..??" "I don't want to know as long as they are healthy". 
Might ask if you pay for it would they test the goat you are interested in...more and more are beginning to understand the importance of testing...until then we who do must be willing to go that extra step to help those who dont...


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Thanks guys.
I was asking for a while if they'd test them if I paid for it but I haven't done that in the past week or so. The usual answer was "No" or "I've already sold the goats" if they'd even respond at that point. Some people would actually get angry with me. 

I figure when the planets align, I'll find a goat that suits us. One could just fall right out of the sky into my lap right?


----------



## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

indeed.....those goats were not destined to be your goat. your goat will appear soon!


----------



## OwnedByTheGoats (Mar 7, 2013)

Around here, that goat would be at least 275.00. No one tests around here. It is pretty frustrating!


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I expect to pay over 250 for an adult registered healthy goat. I'm willing to pay for what I want. I don't want to say money is no issue but if I have to call out the vet to take care of a sick goat....as opposed to paying up front to a breeder for a well goat? There's no choice.


----------



## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

i feel your pain. i'm looking at a alpine doeling that has amazing genetics but isnt registered. the mother has been tested. i think i can get her 75% registered. then her babies can be registered as american alpines. she has asister that is also for sale. if i can get this done are you interested?


----------



## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

i feel your pain. my problem isnt the testing it is the lack of registration.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

yeah. the lack of registration is a real bug too. Seems like few register so if you find one that is ADGA registered that you get excited until you realize they don't test. I need to figure out how much I care about registration I guess.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

how far are you willing to travel? This was just posted on FB

https://www.facebook.com/groups/139365826148416/?hc_location=stream

*Molly Smith
*

*Two alpine does for sale, older does five and six years old. Amazing milkers! Asking $250 for each can be bred for an additional fee. In Petersburgh NY CAE negative herd.

*


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

ooof. 5 hours is a lot of travel right now. Thank you. I'll keep it in mind. I really wanted to keep in state but I've almost worn out my options and I do like the older ladies


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

yeah I know distance can make things just not feasible. But when I saw it come up in my newsfeed i just had to pass it on


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

we have driven 6 hours some times....when the getting is good we go get em' lol

You can also ask to meet half way...after tons of pix from all angles...emailed proof of CAE negative test results...and a good phone chat to get that "feel" for things..


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I appreciate the thought Stacey. I don't mind most travel. Right now I have a bunch of responsibilities that make it a little difficult to even take a 2 hour drive some place. That's my own issues though....

I don't know if I could commit to buying a goat without actually seeing/meeting/touching.


----------



## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

Sorry if my answer is long winded but thought it may help explain why some breeders do what they do. 

I can understand. I only test my herd at this time for CAE as the test for that is pretty accurate. The test for CL and Johnes is not very accurate at all. The only true way to test for CL is to test the pus from a possible spot. Some people may have tried the sheep vax for CL on goats which if they have even a truly neg goat could came back as positive from the titer results etc (they would really need to do a PCR titer for better results in this case). Johnes is not that accurate either, but if they ever get it more accurate I would love to start testing my herd for that as well. I think any good breeder should be willing to let you test at your expense for what ever you like on the goat of your choice. Do know that any goats under 8 months of age may not produce an accurate result in any test unless it is a DNA test. We always wait until kids are 8 months or older before we pull blood for the CAE testing, but if the parents have both been tested then that can provide you with a base results for any kid under 8 months of age.

With that being said I think a lot of breeders fear stigma from false positives that could either be from in proper specimen transport or in proper lab handling. Even some of the best labs can have a slip up when testing or recording result findings. Another thing to check with the state lab in the state of the goat herd you are interested in, as many state labs offer testing for instate residents for free or low cost for herd disease prevention programs. A lot of breeders do not know this. We are lucky in Tennessee and have the state lab within a 2 hour drive of our farm, so we typically pull blood and drive it in to ensure proper transport and the cost of fuel is about the same as over night shipping (but we know how the package was handled).

Oh but to the comments that they have responded to you with as "We show goats we know we are clean" You should be cautious (no offense to those that do show) as with any animals most illnesses and diseases have been passed around at shows. I know an old equine massage client of mine that has a mare worth $50,000 that shows. She took her horse to a show about 4 years ago and did not QT upon her return home and her whole farm got sick. 

I guess what I am saying is that if a breeder is not willing to allow you to test at your own expense then I would pass on any goat they have available. I always inform people that my herd has been testing as CAE neg and I always give the client the option to contact my vet to discuss the health status of my herd and farm. I do inform them that we do not test for CL or Johnes due to the inaccuracy of the current testing available. My vet knows how OCD I am about bio-security. I even have a plan to start having any clients that come to the farm for future showing (once we move to the new farm) disinfect their shoes and wash hands before entering the goat area. I know I may offend any clients but you never know where they have came from. Even if their own goats are healthy did they walk through another farm that may have had something in the ground. 

I do hope you can find a nice healthy Alpine for your herd.


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I don't currently test due to cash flow~(I have been a stay at home mom for 5-6 months now, so one paycheck )if someone were to offer, heck yeah, I'd test for them! Asap I will be testing my own so I can stop pasteurizing milk...DH has an autoimmune disorder that cae is a problem for....

Good luck Amy....wish I could help you with those alpines...they are in my town


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

nygoatmom did you know that CAE testing through biotracking is only 4.00 per test and you can send it in the USPS flat rate box for 5.95 - they email results and its fast and accurate. Thats the only way I can afford it too. Im on a one income as well. 

I think if you save up a couple dollars a week you could do that


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

LOL...to be honest, no I did not know that!  I was thinking big $$ like a vet visit....LOL


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

DDFN - I was explaining all of this to my husband. He said "So you mean people are deathly afraid of animals that have these diseases yet they refuse to test for it so they can pretend that there is no way their goats are sick". I think he's catching on. I agree about the tests with the false positives on CL and Johnes but CAE.... I'm happy to pay for a test if someone would let me.

I think stepping in bleach is a standard practice. I've had to do that visiting farms. Not always but some. No one will enter my barn without that. If they don't want to, they can look at the goats from the paddock fence that abuts the drive.

I'm a little obsessive too and I like to use my bleach 

Thank you Stephanie. I actually have 2 here in Maine after today's email blitz that I'm waiting to hear back on and I think I've found a suitable Oberhasli....I wanted to stick with Alpine's so I could use one buck but I do actually like 50/50 Obi Alpines.


----------



## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

I know it may sound a little silly to your husband but some people feel safer not knowing or are even in denial. I had read an article once about how they felt that store bought milk that had came from big diaries ended up having Johnes and they thought it was causing more cases of Crohn's. There was no hard evidence but I would love to see some findings on this. 

Oh when I worked as a vet tech I was Queen of ISO. They laughed that I sanitized the sanitation bottle (outside of it) with another sanitation bottle. I also had a foot bathe set up for entry and exit of that wing. I carried those traits with me to the pathology lab later on. My husband still laughs when we visit other farms and I lock down the truck and our shoes until I can roccal everything.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Its funny. In my researching diseases I've come across a lot of crazy claims. People were claiming Crohns was caused by goats with Johnes, CAE or CL. I'm not sure where the rumor started but I've seen it in multiple places, multiple times, connected to all 3 of the "biggies". I searched and searched for findings and couldn't find any any connection other than the rumor mill hard at work.

No one is doing much research on goats period. Other livestock are taking most of the research dollars and it's leaving people to make wild and ridiculous rumors that stick about goats because there is no research to back anything up one way or the other. I fully think we could see an end to at least CL (possibly CAE) in this country if there was a little more knowledge and research. 

I bet you had the cleanest lab and now the cleanest farm ever.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

A little public whining might have found me something....

I'll surely post pictures or complain more depending on how this works out.


----------



## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

I used to test, but lost my job and am just barely surviving. Money goes to feed them. Testing will come again when I can afford it. Until then, I treat them all like they do have CAE. 

tesing for CL isn't very accurate. The only true way to test for it is from the pus. A blood test can be murky, especially with more and more people vaccinating their goats for it, which shows up as positive. In 35 years of dairy goat (and some Boers) owning in 2 states, I have never had an abscess in my herd, but I only buy from people I know and usually don't bring in new does, just new born bucks.

As soon as I can, I will test for CAE again. I always did, i was one of the first who could prove a clean herd all those many years ago, and it remained clean until I lost the entire herd to an arsonist.

Johnnes is another odd one. My vet was a former state vet who said that he has never seen a case of it in goats and has never heard of one in this part of the US either. He suggested the only time you would need to test was if you were going to be licensed for selling milk and milk products. I dunno. I don't think most goat people up here have ever heard of Johnnes, let alone test for it, unless they are serious goat owners.

Have you contacted either one of the dairy goat clubs? Heart of Maine and Southern Maine Dairy Goat Club? I know a lot of the bigger breeders test for CAE and practice CAE prevention. Many are licensed to sell milk, so they would have to have all the testing done for the state.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

CAE really is the big one. Though, I like to ask about all of them. 

CL blood tests are inaccurate on an individual goat and the pus tests aren't 100% either. CL blood tests on a large herd can give you a base line as to where the herd stands though. Not that everyone is strictly honest about whether they have ever had a goat that's positive. Nor can anyone be sure they won't pick it up at a show. 

Johnes isn't accurate either. I don't think anyone tests for it. Most dairies test for TB and Brucellosis, which is mostly unheard of though they test for it anyway.

I keep meaning to join SMDGA but haven't taken the time. I might have found a goat....or rather 4 that qualify. Now I just need to find the time to visit, inspect, and maybe buy.


----------



## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

ha! you went from complaining there wasn't any that fit the criteria, and now FOUR!! exciting. hope one of those girls work out for you!! then we get to see lots of pics, yes???


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Its one place that has four. Heh. Complaining always helps!!!! If I get a new goat I will of course share photos.


----------



## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

yay!!!! fingers crossed for you!


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Also keep in mind that goats can get CL from a mosquito bite. I knew someone that that happened to.


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

^^oh, wonderful


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Bug transmission of CL is very rare according too all published papers on it. But it sometimes seem like CL is almost an inevitability making me wonder why the vaccine isn't more accepted now that we have it. Too new?


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Have you tried the ADGA directory for your area? That doesnt guarantee them clean but you may have some great herds within driving distance and dont even know it.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I have written some alpine people. Very few responses. We'll see if this new lead pans out. If it doesn't I'll look up others.


----------



## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

AmyBoogie said:


> Its funny. In my researching diseases I've come across a lot of crazy claims. People were claiming Crohns was caused by goats with Johnes, CAE or CL. I'm not sure where the rumor started but I've seen it in multiple places, multiple times, connected to all 3 of the "biggies". I searched and searched for findings and couldn't find any any connection other than the rumor mill hard at work.
> 
> No one is doing much research on goats period. Other livestock are taking most of the research dollars and it's leaving people to make wild and ridiculous rumors that stick about goats because there is no research to back anything up one way or the other. I fully think we could see an end to at least CL (possibly CAE) in this country if there was a little more knowledge and research.
> 
> I bet you had the cleanest lab and now the cleanest farm ever.


I wish I could remember where I found that one article at, but it was talking about cattle with Johnes and how it resembled Crohns. They were suggesting that if one consumed milk from an animal with Johnes then you would take in the same bacteria and present with Crohns even if it had been pasteurized. Maybe one day they will get more research going for all of the things that are currently unanswered.

I did have the cleanest lab  but soon I will have a very clean farm. The only thing about this place is I can't control everything. The neighbors dog brings me things (trash, door mats, dead animals and steals tack, clothes and much more). At least at the new farm I will have one neighbor and a farm I can finally call my own!

Please keep us posted about your possible new goat!


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It always amazes me how many goat people are terrible about responding. An email just takes a few minutes. I will always respond. Even if it is to say I don't have anything for sale. Usually I will try to find someone who might have what you want if I don't.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

DDFN - I remember reading plenty of internet "articles" connecting Johnes and Crohns but no scientific papers on it. http://www.johnes.org/dairy/faqs.html - It might be a connection for real though right now it's only theory, right? Unfortunately, some people are saying it as a fact in homesteading zines, blogs and forums. They're now connecting goats to Crohns as well. I remember reading one woman's post about CL - "my cousins best friend is in med school and they opened up human cadavers that were full of CL so I know for a fact that humans get CL from goats". Really? If cadavers were loaded with CL then wouldn't the medical community get alarmed and do something? Made up hysteria. I agree, we definitely need more researchers in goat farming.

Hooray for a new clean farm!!!
I share duty with my parents (my dad always wanted to retire with goats) and while they're particular about being tidy they have no clue about biosecurity. They're learning though. Bleach is a girls best friend. 

Karen - It doesn't bother me. I know that farms are busy. If they don't have time to get back to me, I just figure they can't help me. The only thing about so few responses is that when I'm emailing in general and not from an ad, I tend to cast out a wider net and message a bunch of people that if more than the average 1 in 5 get back to me, I have a lot of my own emails to write back. Some people from my search in the spring got back to me a month ago when they had something. So they never messaged me back in the spring but they kept my email. Unfortunately they caught me between my searches. I figure it all works out like it's meant to.


----------



## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

amyboogie said:


> bug transmission of cl is very rare according too all published papers on it. But it sometimes seem like cl is almost an inevitability making me wonder why the vaccine isn't more accepted now that we have it. Too new?


 the reason it isn't available in new hampshire is that the maker of the vaccine hasn't asked for approval in the state. In fact the dept of agriculture had never even heard of the vaccine. This may also be the case in the rest of new england. So today i'll be calling the the maker and tell them about it,.i think that if every body on this site checked with their non approved state they would find similar responses. Lets get on it people!!


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I talked to my vet about the vaccine. 
They will order you the CL vaccine with no issues. I did get a lecture on the pros and cons but I was happy for that anyway. It comes in a dose with CD/T - so one booster shot yearly and you can give your goats the vaccine for CL and CD/T. Easy peasy. I have ordered it from my vet and I am almost sure that I will use it on all my animals that will be staying with us. The babes that are being sold, I will let the new owners have that choice themselves.

Why? I know there are concerns that if an animal is sold that it will forever look like it has CL on a blood test. So if the new owners fail to take knowledge of this they might cull a healthy animal should they ever get a blood test done. There are 2 different blood tests for CL. One can tell if the CL is from vaccination and one doesn't. I'm not sure why the other even exists any longer. sigh. People need to care more maybe?


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Id take CAE over CL any day. CAE doesnt live but a few moments outside of the body. And other then direct blood / milk contact, you are pretty safe. CL can infect an entire farm if an abscess goes un noticed and pops. Thankfully though we dont have to worry about CL here. We started on a new piece of property with a CL clean herd.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

But when you show goats or other people visit your farm or you visit another farm and don't have complete biosecurity, there is always a chance. Sure it's minute but there is always a chance. We can protect our herds the best we can but we never know. I haven't been able to find any cases online listing the transmission through bugs but there are postings that allude to it and Karen knows of a case. How do you stop a bug from transmitting this? Vaccine?

I think I'd rather have CL over CAE. no wait.... I'd rather not have either. heh. It's not a good choice. One doesn't effect them and if you stay on top of it,isolate, vaccinate then you aren't likely to infect everyone but you have to be super vigilant or you are contaminating your whole farm. CAE is easy to not transmit if you test before pregnancy but it shortens a life usually and can be very painful for the goat. Neither option is good. It's nice having the option of a vaccine at least for CL.

I am a little frightened that my biosecurity isn't tight enough and we'll contract something at a show. Seems so few around here test or even have knowledge of the diseases. I've heard a lot of wrong things from big breeders/dairies. I love that so many are so confident in their herds not being able to contract anything. So many believe it won't happen in their herd and I guess, as I've asked around - no one ever has CL in their herd so it is that rare? Almost like it doesn't happen except to others.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Aug 28, 2012)

A lot of people around here don't test either. If there is a goat that I really want who isn't tested, I will ask the owner if they would be willing to test them at my expense. 

I am actually doing this with a group of does right now that I am buying. I know this woman, I have seen her herd. I feel pretty confident about her animals anyway. I bought a buck from her last year and he tested neg while I had him in quarantine. She tests for CAE only, and she is currently testing 3 does for CL and Johnes for me.

Reputable folks who have pretty good confidence in their herds will usually be willing to run the tests for you. 

I have to agree that the tests don't seem to be 100% accurate, even according to the lab, but I know I have also read that a false positive on the CL may be caused by a positive CAE or something along those lines. I wouldn't want either, so...

We are in a big cattle ranching area, so a lot of goats share pastures or use land that was recently used by cattle so testing for Johnes is important to me. 

I think it's a matter of percentages for me. My seatbelt may not save my life in every accident, but it'll sure make me safer. I'd rather take every precaution I can with my goat's health.

I also keep shoe covers on hand and if anyone wants to see my goats who has been in a pasture with other goats or ruminants, they have to wash hands and cover their shoes.


----------



## aceofspades (Dec 26, 2012)

AmyBoogie said:


> ooof. 5 hours is a lot of travel right now. Thank you. I'll keep it in mind. I really wanted to keep in state but I've almost worn out my options and I do like the older ladies


You must not be from Texas where I live 5hrs is a short trip that's just around the corner.


----------



## Texas.girl (Dec 20, 2011)

AmyBoogie said:


> Thanks guys.
> I was asking for a while if they'd test them if I paid for it but I haven't done that in the past week or so. The usual answer was "No" or "I've already sold the goats" if they'd even respond at that point. Some people would actually get angry with me.


I spoke to someone last night who has a pregnant Nubian for sale. He told me she is about to kid any day. I asked if she was tested for CE and was told something very confusing about goats coming from various places. Made me think he bought her from someone else but he said he didn't. He claims she is a pure-bred Nubian and was bred to a Nubian buck. But from other posts I have read here and on fb goat group sites, how do I know for sure the kids are Nubians? My vet is just down the street from where this guy is so it would be really easy to take her to be tested, but honestly I am not sure I want to be bothered. There are breeders who do test and are register. I am not sure what this guy wants for his goat but someone who is not testing and/or registering better not charge as much as someone who is.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Aceofspades - I am definitely not Texan. The heat would kill me dead. I'm a winter girl. There is a lot of traveling here in Maine (2-3 hours is reasonable to me) but I have a lot of responsibilities that keep me close to home at the moment. 

Texas.girl - If she isn't registered and wasn't bred to a registered buck there is no guarantees. You can look at the kids and make an educated guess or if you trust the person, trust their word. If there are breeders that test AND register then I probably wouldn't bother with someone that I had a gut feeling wasn't being completely up front with me.


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

If you are looking for registered goats, starting with a non registered goat of any breed isnt a good start. At best you could register the animal as experimental and would then have to breed to registered Nubian bucks. The first kid would be 50/50 because neither parent was registered Nubian. Then that kids kid would be 3/4 Nubian. Then that kids kid would be7/8. Then that kids kid I think could then be registered as an American Nubian... though I think I am missing one more breeding. I swear it takes 5 breedings before they can be Amercian. So as you can see, its a tough road just to get up to American status.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I just looked it up and if I read it correctly; 4 breedings get you a doe that can be called American something. You need 5 breedings if you want to register a buck as American


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

AH! yep thats it. Thanks Amy!


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

on this subject....
I was told that some people prefer CAE positive goats.
I commented that I didn't feel safe about drinking the milk and the response was that people with AIDS feel that the milk from a CAE positive goat helps with symptoms. 

That's a new one to me. Not that I've been around long but I've been researching CL and CAE a lot and I thought I had read/heard just about all the rumors. Anyone else hear something like that?

Needless to say, I don't feel as comfortable with this farm's "negative on CAE a few years ago before closing the herd" tests and have asked for CAE test to be run at my cost. Keep your fingers crossed for me and this doe.


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

CAE is a retro virus must like the HIV virus but how that would help HIV positive people feel better is way beyond me. CAE cant be transmitted to people but CL can.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

CL has only reported to have been transmitted in 2 cases and those were open wound to open pus. There is no report of transmission through milk and udder abscesses are rare but who wants to chance it. I'm not sure I want to drink CAE milk. I need to do more research on that disease.


----------



## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I have a new testing evasion! I thought I had gotten them all and I got this one twice now.

Sure baby, I totally have the testing done. Oh yeah, it's right here. Come see my goat and I'll show you the paper. No I can't give you any info off the paperwork for the testing. Come on, you know you wanna see my goat, she's really pretty.

_ok, so maybe I embellished the wording a little bit but you get the idea._

I think I prefer the people that say "no I don't test and I don't want to go through the hassle"


----------

