# Calling ALL MEAT MARKETEERS GIVE ME ADVICE ON JUDGING A HERD SIRE



## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm trying to figure out what to look for as far as build and muscle and stature and on and on... in a good commercial boer herd sire. I want any and all advice and or knowledge that somone can offer. Nothing is too minor of a detail. Let's just say...i don't know ANYTHING about anything. We'll just SAY that.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm sorry i didn't make it clear but i'm referring to picking them out young, as in fresh off of weaning. Thanks in advance Guys and Gals.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

You have to develop an eye for it. You want long straight back, wide chest.
The front & rear should be about the same.
Thick bone on forearm.
Clean teats, no fish or cluster teats.
If you can take a look at winners in the show ring you will get a better idea.


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I agree with NancyD.
It really helps if you can see both the parents too.
Happy shopping!


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

nancy d said:


> You have to develop an eye for it. You want long straight back, wide chest.
> The front & rear should be about the same.
> Thick bone on forearm.
> Clean teats, no fish or cluster teats.
> If you can take a look at winners in the show ring you will get a better idea.


Thank you for the input. I'm gonna be trying to choose between Billies born on the farm. I think I've got some nice ones but I don't have a baseline to judge from.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All good advice.


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## GrocksBoerGoats (Jun 7, 2015)

The first thing I always grab after looking at the parents are the shoulders (wide and full of muscle). Then I look at length and straight back. Rear end and up front. Look at the animals in the herd also, of same age group.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Keep track of ADG (average daily gain) if your wanting to keep a buck from your own breeding. When talking meat more pounds means more money. Of course take the above advise as well but a fast growth rate is a big key as well.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm sure glad I asked. Y'all are a goldmine of information.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Keep in mind that growing kids go through gangly teenage months.
And unless the breeder really knows how to set them up for pics you can get some that don't reflect their true build.
It is best to is feel the goat in person. Run your hands firmly down his back.
Does he walk smoothly?
I will try to find a few of mine to look at.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Current Fullblood Boer herd sire taken several months ago. His back looks dippy because his head is elevated. He's not real spectacular.

eta you need to evaluate your does. What do they need? Stronger pasterns? Length? Width? 
Over the last couple years I had a few with not so great shoulder assembly by the black headed buck here. The doe he covered was one of his daughters.
What I'm saying is to keep in mind that your buck can compensate for your doe's weaknesses or in the above case exaggerate flaws.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Buck kid a few days old.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Take a look at Pam Toth's website, Crossroads Boers, Tim Harder, all here on TGS.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

This our new guy we are pretty excited about him. He has good bone, he is wide front to back. With plenty of meat.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Im still learning myself, I have a bad habit of just looking at the animal as a whole, but one thing that was told to me, and RPC has a perfect guy to show on. Look at his butt, see by the actual anus how there is hair missing? Thats called the twist, the longer and wider it is the better. RPCs buck is really going to grow to have a awesome behind on him and that is one of the pet peeves I have about a lot of goats, just the lack of butt and its kinda hard to tell, well for me, what their butt is going to look like till I learned that little trick


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

We have a huge wether and when people look at him, they say... "Wow!" Now, that's a great meat goat. No, to everyone's amazement and to ours, the biggest wether we have ever kept never made it to the freezer and is a beloved, cherished pet. But.. I tell people.. now that's what a meat goat is supposed to look like. He has tree stumpy legs and carries a lot of meat on him everywhere. I don't know how he managed to have a longer body coming out of two shorter bodied parents, but he did. Sometimes, you can get the genetics out of a buck that was the smaller of triplets for the reason that he may not be as food aggressive as his siblings. Our present buck has awesome form and was slower growing than some but he is only a year and is catching up on his growth. He has produced a stout little buckling this year that is growing quite fast and carries great genetics. And it has a lot to do with pairing the right buck to the right doe.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

For my own benefit of having a digital copy I can double check
B004-dob 3-29-16
4-3-16 lbs 10.4
B005-dob 3-29-16
4-3-16 lbs 9.4


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

Okay, another question. How much does posture and build factor in with weight and ADG? Assuming of course that parasite resistance is satisfactory. I know right now weight is more an attribute to their mother at this point but I have two Billies from the same dam and the one is a little bigger but the other is straighter across the back. Both muscled fairly well compared to what I've seen in the past. I know which one I like already but I want to make sure I'm looking for the proper traits beings they're going to be passed on to my whole herd next year.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well how will these kids be sold? That's going to play some what of a factor in it. If your back east and your taking them to the sale and there's a big bunch that gets sold all at once in the ring I would say weight is the most important. I guess the same as if you take them to the butcher house. 
Now here in California what I do is of course try and sell privately, ones I can't sell go to the sale where they only sell up to like 3 at a time. Now weight does play a factor there BUT what the doe kids look like also does. If they are nice looking girls I'll get more because I'm getting bids from buyers wanting to add them as breeding stock. Same as if I try and sell them at home. If that all makes sense lol sorry I'm on late night checking right now 
Now as for weight gain and only being the mother yes and no. I have the same does I've had for years, I bought a new buck last year that was HUGE at 9 months old and these kids are already growing way faster then the bucks I used in the past, same birth weights 7-9 pounds, so no it's not all mom.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Thought of something while brushing my teeth. The weights they have right now, since your just starting to weigh them means nothing unless you have a weight of when they were born. So you have the two guys right now. Weigh them after awhile, two weeks or so, get that weight, minus the weight you have listed above and divide by the amount of days you waited and that will give you the ADG. Just because one weighs more right now doesn't mean much, he could have weighed more at birth and is actually gaining less then the other in the end.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm in the same boat. I'd rather sell as many as I can from the farm and whatever is still th ere when they get to the proper size for the stockyard will go to the sale. Jessica84 you're telling me what i was kinda thinking already. I'm thinking size will carry the most clout as long as he's not sway backed.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

And it makes me happy for know that these boys are pretty much par for the coarse was far as weights go. Y'all have all been a TREMENDOUS help!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok then yes if they are not to far off on ADG, say the nicer looking is not to far off from the other then keep the one with a better body for sure. Now if he's growing at half the rate then I would think different. Another thing to think about on what the buck looks like and selling off the farm is you will get people wanting breeding stock and they will want to see sire and dame. 
A perfect example of what I'm saying here is there's a lady not far from me, she was trying to sell her kids and they looked decent enough but when they saw how small the sire is at 2 they backed out. He's not very big, short backed and very narrow. So even though the kids were decent enough and they will bring good money at the sale, the sires looks are keeping her from getting that little extra money and not having to pay commission which trust me adds up!


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

I know exactly what you mean. I'm the same way if I go looking for a billy or doe. I wanna see the parents. I may already have whichever one I don't want for my herd sold, so I'm gonna keep track of ADG from now til they've been exclusively on grass and grain for a few weeks unless one really separates himself before then. I can't tell EVERYBODY that offered me advice THANK YOU enough. I feel like I'm ready to evaluate these bucks as they grow now, more than ever before.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

No problem that's what this place is for. If it wasn't for this forum I would have had a lot of dead goats and probably a lot of crappy looking ones too.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

rpc said:


> no problem that's what this place is for. If it wasn't for this forum i would have had a lot of dead goats and probably a lot of crappy looking ones too.


amen!


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

First check of ADG even tho they're still on momma, just for shiggles
4/3 to 4/8

#004-.40 up to 12.4
#005-.48 up to 11.8


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

So even tho the one is smaller he is gaining weight faster. How old are they now?


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

2 weeks tomorrow


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

So in the next week or so are you going to start them on grain?


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

I wasn't thinking about that. Should I start giving them grain i n the nest week or so? I'm not going to be creep feeding btw. They're gonna be forage and rationed grained. To me creeping them especially when selling herd sires, is kind of deceiving to the eye.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well in a way yes you are right. There are people out there that want the real deal goat that grows very well on pasture alone and let me tell you there is nothing more annoying then buying a big beautiful goat and watching them melt because they were raised on just standing there munching hay and grain all day. But kids who have been creep feed do have a better eye appeal since they will grow out faster and better looking. There's really no wrong way to look at this.
Me, I creep feed. The reasons behind this is:
It takes a lot of stress of the dame
As much as I'm very pleased with my off the ranch sales the only thing I can 100% count on is market price and weight is money
And this last year I have cut adults off grain 100% so a private buyer can look at their sire and dame and get a idea of how well they will be that way.
I personally would suggest giving them some grain, but it totally depends on what market your wanting to go for on selling your kids


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

I creep to give them that little extra help in the beginning and to help out the mothers. If you dont, the dams will need to really produce in order to keep up with the kids. I feed grain to all my goats, Boers and nigerian dwarves. I individually feed just what they need to stay a healthy weight. My pasture isn't great yet, as it needs seeded. My hay is grass hay with a little alfalfa at kidding time. So to me, the grain is well worth it. I do show mine, and keep the show does a bit thicker till age 1, then I keep them in good breeding condition. 
It all depends on your market target. Mine are other show families. They want a meatier goat and know they will be feeding grain.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

I grain them all. Just portioned to what they need to maintain good health. My plan is to let them forage as much as possible. I've got lespedeza all over the place so that helps a LOT. My method of thinking is that i can keep them a little longer if need be and not have as much overhead in grain.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

When they're big enough I mean.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

I went ahead and gave em a trough. Mostly to separate the momma's feed time but to also give them a little taste.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

Just an idea of what I'm looking at here. I can't lie. I'm really partial to the white faced guy. His ADG(nursing) is a touch under the other guy. But the eye test to me is a no brainer. Am I wrong?


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

They are to young for me to tell. But I like them.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

Just from my observation no. 5(the guy with the little stripe on his face) is pretty close in size. I think it's hard to see because his coat's a little bit longer. They're both strong. No. 4(the white face) didn't need wormer as much as no.5. Again it really no.4 future herd to lose. Just from(way too early to tell) visual muscling and and overall(way too early to really tell) vigor. Sorry if I'm rambling guys. I'm STOKED that I may have found my next billy right here in my own little piece of dirt.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

I try to be unbiased when i go take reference pics. But this guy just stands out in adg and to the eye. Still some time to go til it's decided but here's the leader in the paddock. 
DOB 3-30-16
ADG .4xx-ish(it's wrote down at home)
And he's gained 10lbs in 3 weeks(from 1st recorded weight till now)


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

Here's the winner, or at least the one i decided on. Love the one you got they say. To be a forage only buck born 3-29-16 i'd say he'll do.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Looking forward to seeing more photos of him as he grows! Out of one of your best does?


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

He is out of of my best doe so far. I shipped her on down the road to keep from inbreeding, so whether he was the right choice or not, he's what i've got. I'm just getting my feet underneath me in the goat business to this point, but i'm fairly certain that with this guy over some of my newer does i brought in for him,will result in above average market bucks/does at minimum, along with some herd bucks/does Because what he lacks in length the new does have in spades. That combined with his muscling and width i'm SUPER excited about what's in store for Crawford Farm in the not so distant future.


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## crawly (Apr 15, 2014)

Finally Cornered him for some decent pics. Or decent for a crappy old phone. This is a great form of visual record keeping by the way. With the opportunity to babble with others that are of the same interest.


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