# Continued battle with horse nettle nightshade TOXIC WEED...



## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I got some weeds I would rather not have with some bad hay a year ago and started taking them on last growing season. My main spray was GrazonNext HL and I had to mix it very strong to kill this weed. I was mixing so strong it was starting to kill the surrounding grasses which it isn't supposed to kill.

The main one I don't want is horse nettle, a highly toxic nightshade that looks like a thorny cherry tomato plant. The fruit look like little cherry tomato and this is one of the more toxic plants in North America. It isn't a non-native but I consider it an invasive noxious weed as it was trying to take over.

Basically this thing is a nasty thorny plant that is so toxic it kills the surrounding plants. It also kills anything that eats it. When mowed, the toxin kills even more of the surrounding plants. I lost several guinea fowl that ate the berries last year. I also lost one goat that was somewhat sickly after she ate this plant. The others avoided it which gave it a selective advantage as the surrounding plants were eaten.

I also got another one that looks like a tomatillo, also in the nightshade family. It isn't nearly as invasive as the horse nettle but I am hitting it as well as it is also toxic.

I also picked up "goat weed" which the goats do not have any desire to eat by the way. This is an annual so am not as worried but is still a junk plant if you ask me.

Anyway, I mowed and burned all the pastures this Feb. I went out and looked for the first time over the past few days and there was more of this stuff growing. I was hoping that the fire would have burned the seeds from the berries but I guess not. I pulled what I found but know there is more out there. Some of this was new growth from seeds. It pulled easily and brought a smooth root with it. Some was likely from last year and the roots broke off so I assume it will come back after I pulled it. I am sure this slowed it down some....

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions... Keep spraying with GrazonNext??? I also wondered about using some harsher chemicals and then covering up the area so the goats can't get to it. I have several dozen black plastic goat mineral tubs. I was thinking about turning these over and putting them on top of treated areas. This would keep the plants from getting sun and the black plastic would just back them, plus it would keep the goats away. These tubs are about the width of a cattle tub but about 1/3 as tell. I was thinking of using a Roundup generic and then putting these upside down tubs on that area. This would be a spot treatment.

We have been getting a lot of rain and the ones the pulled out of the ground cam easily. The next few days call for record rain so I won't be out then but may look to pull more of this crap after that is over while the ground is soft.

Any suggestions?

Conor


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can try the black plastic tubs but ultimately just pulling it out will ultimately work. I had problems with a nightshade and slowly over a few years I finally won the battle by pulling them out.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I figured pulling them, especially the 1st time sprouts, would definitely stop or at least slow them down. Certain plants can only be mowed, pulled, poisoned, and burned a certain number of times before they run out of energy reserves. The problem is that this stuff has long roots that go many feet into the ground. I think the black tubs will be saved for the really bad ones.

I always pick the fruit and burn it to prevent seed spread whenever I see it.

Conor


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It is kind of addictive to see how much root you can pull out with each plant.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I walked around some more because the ground was so soaked from the record rainfall as I got more of the root this way. I figure this will only kill the newly sprouted stuff that came up from seeds this year as the root was still a single smooth taproot that came out easily and intact. The stuff from before had a nasty entrenched root. This is nasty stuff.

I figure what I miss this time around I will just spray with more GrazonNext HL. I am also really going to get on finding those seed-filled berries as this stuff is prolific.

Conor


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Don't cover the plants with tubs after you spray with Roundup--it's systemic so the plant needs to be actively growing for the poison to get circulated through the whole plant. I'm not into sprays but had to take a pest control class to get my degree. It was a long time ago, so I'm not familiar with the other products, but am assuming they're also systemic, as top kill will do you no good. What I learned about systemic herbicides is to mow the weeds down in spring, wait till they begin re-sprouting, & spray the sprouts. The plants are in a very active stage of growth then. Keep an eye on them--you might have to respray anyway, but with this method you're using less spray, & it's expensive. Doing it now will also get them before they fruit too, I'd think. (we don't have that weed here) Have you heard of weed solarization? You'd have to wait till summer, & if you have acres & acres it won't be practical. You can read about it to get the details, but what you do is mow them down as short as possible, or pull them, & cover the area with CLEAR plastic sheets. The dark soil heats up from the sun enough to eventually kill them entirely--it takes a while; I really don't remember how many weeks. You can find the specifics in organic type pest control books. The plastic would keep the goats from eating there too. You can weigh the edges of the plastic down.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I see. I know Grazon is one of these. It is best sprayed in the morning on sunny days so that there is a whole day of sunlight and growth for it to do its work. I think it must be one of these types as well.

I think I am going to just keep using Grazon in the areas where the goats have access and Roundup generic where they don't. Roundup is far cheaper and it seems to work. I would rather not use these chemicals but this stuff is tough!

The clear plastic over the plants is something I might look into depending on how much comes back. It looks like my spraying last year really put a dent in the regrowth of this in areas where I found it. By the time I got around to the area of concern the growing season was close to being over so the Grazon probably didn't work too well. I will hit it hard when the plant is flowering this year.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

*You know a plant is bad news when even goats don't eat it!*

I knew that the horse nettle was a problem when I noticed that the goats were avoiding it and eating everything around it. I mean they eat multifloral rose and poison ivy, two horrid plants. They have a reputation for eating anything after all. You know it is a bad plant when even goats won't eat it. I noticed this thorny flowering plant and didn't like the looks of it, especially when goats wouldn't touch it. I knew it was bad news.

http://poisonousplants.ansci.cornell.edu/goatlist.html

They just mention "nightshade" on this site which is what horse nettle and many other plants are. They also mention "goat weed" which goats want nothing to do with. This is another weed I came across with the bad hay I picked up. I don't know exactly how to handle this one but figure keeping a healthy pasture will keep it manageable as it is an annual. Why do they call something that goats want nothing to do with "goat weed?" The same people who say goats eat plastic bags and tinfoil probably came up with this.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

http://homesteadchronicles.com/blog/horse-nettle-toxic-cherry-tomato-imposter/

Also, the herbicides I sprayed must not kill the seeds, only the growing plants. I found some areas where I spread the contaminated hay that were full of this stuff. I pulled up all the new sprouts and will spray the rest once it blooms and the plant is most vulnerable.

Conor


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I am so glad I came across this. The last 2 years we started seeing a strange plant coming up here and there, noticed it because it has thorns under the leaves.
Last year a LOT of them, and I remember it had colored tiny 'fruit.'

We have one in our back yard, and have had an 8 week old bottle baby that was acting weird over the weekend (she has been fighting mineral/vitamin deficiences since we got her). But I remember my daughter saying she was nibbling on it and talking to her asking her how she was eating on it/nibbling with the thorns!

This is the one she was nibbling on, sorry phone doesn't take great pics. 









If this is a nightshade, it's the first poisonous plant that I know of on our place, and will have to look into eradicating it.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I think that is thistle of some sort and not nightshade. This is an invasive weed and should be eradicated if possible. It is illegal in MO to let this grow on your property. It appears to be mildly toxic as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thistle

This is the one I am fighting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanum_carolinense

I pulled some more sprouts out today. I noticed they had a long stem to get the leaves up above the other grass and weeds. So I am hoping that if it tries to come back it won't have enough stored energy to grow that long stem again to get to the sun. What comes back will just get sprayed when it flowers.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I think the plant you have is Canada thistle, a noxious weed. https://maxpull-gdvuch3veo.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/canada-thistle1.jpg

It will have a purple flower as well at the top.

Conor


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I have just a few plants of the first kind you posted. The goats have ignored it so far, hoping they keep it up.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

cwatkin said:


> http://homesteadchronicles.com/blog/horse-nettle-toxic-cherry-tomato-imposter/
> 
> Also, the herbicides I sprayed must not kill the seeds, only the growing plants. I found some areas where I spread the contaminated hay that were full of this stuff. I pulled up all the new sprouts and will spray the rest once it blooms and the plant is most vulnerable.
> 
> Conor


No, systemics don't kill seeds. About the only thing that will is the solarization method or the super toxic soil sterilants where they cover the whole field with plastic & pump gas in. (I think they made that illegal here in CA) & like most sprays, they will kill all the seeds--the ones you like too.

Pre-emergents kill seeds as they germinate. As far as I know they're all granular & you have to water them in. Read the directions carefully or they won't work. These will also kill the seeds of the plants you want to have growing.

You want to mow just as they start blooming. For spraying you want really active growth--new shoots are a good sign it's the best time to spray systemics.

I just had a thought--there are broad leaf weedkillers! When I was a landscaper I'd sometimes use a squirt of it on deep rooted weeds in lawns. It does not harm grass at all, so maybe your grass would then be able to grow & shade out some of the weed seeds, instead of having a big bare area. Most weeds are opportunistic--they "appear" when soil is bare or disturbed. I have no idea what kinds of herbicides are still available as it's been years. You can look at lawn care products to see if the selective herbicide is still available & find out the chemical name, so you can buy it more cheaply elsewhere. (Incidentally, there are also selective herbicides that target grass type plants.)


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

GrazonNext HL is a selective herbicide for broadleaf weeds and is safe to use where grazing animals such as goats are present. The problem I have is that I have to use so much of it that I am also killing the grass.

Anyway, the horse nettle nightshade seems to be growing really tall shoots right now. I have pulled several of these up and hope it doesn't have enough stored energy to regenerate itself and get above everything and get the sunlight it seems to require. The stuff seems to grow ANYWHERE as long as there is full sun.

Having this plant where the goats graze is really bad. I found some where the goats are. All the other plants are grazed down and this stuff is left untouched. They are basically giving it more light and encouraging it. Plus they don't eat it.

I think that I am going to just keep pulling this stuff as I see it and if I miss any, I will spray it good.

I made a comparison of the pasture I mowed to the pasture I burned and will not be burning. The quality of forage where I burned seems to have gone down each year. Where I mowed is lush and green.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

*You also want to get rid of that thistle!*

This isn't good stuff either and it will spread. It is illegal to leave as is in Missouri as it is classified as a noxious weed here. I suggest spraying it as well.

Again, I think the mowing in the spring is the route we need to take vs. burning off pastures. The areas I mowed are so much healthier with dense grass to crowd out the weeds that use bare areas as opportunities.

Remember that many of these weeds are native plants that used to grow when our pastures were prairies. Prairies naturally burn and I think these plants use fire as a tool to regenerate. Goats LOVE some of these plants and unfortunately they eat them until they naturally run out of energy and die. The bad ones that the goats avoid then have a chance to grow stronger. I am going to focus on making the good plants stronger as well as eliminating the problem ones.

I don't know why they call this stuff horse nettle as horses want nothing to do with it. Then there is goat weed that goats want nothing to do with. Where do they come up with these names? Apple of Sodom and the Devil's tomato are good names for horse nettle though. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanum_carolinense

I also have a few isolated locations of poke weed which I didn't realize is highly toxic so will be getting rid of those.

Conor


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## SeventeenFarms (Dec 10, 2013)

I agree with Catharina re her post. I might add that mowing to certain heights discourages growth of some plants. In this case, perhaps keeping it below its natural height will weaken it, and along with selective sprays, such as spot treating with a systemic such as roundup, etc could over time get it in control. Also, mowing before bloom will prevent more seeds, lowing the "seed bank". Other considerations are to ck your soil pH and adjust to favor your pasture grasses; fertilize also to favor your grasses; mowing height? ; and if you are overgrazing the pasture so that it has no competition, think of rotating, even if you need to have your goats graze in a smaller area, but not long enough to weaken the desirable grasses. You need competition too, so if the desirable's are gone, only the udesireables will flourish. 

Don't just think of getting rid of a plant, but also how to increase the population of pasture grasses at the same time.Weaken one, strengthen the other.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

That is my plan. I don't know but by comparing the areas that I burned with the ones that I mowed, the mowed areas look so much better. I thought that the burning would kill more seeds but maybe it just encouraged things. Then it also alters soil pH as you mention.

I am going to look at getting some grass seed on the sparse areas. I am also going to target only the bad plants that I don't want. I have been pulling them and figure that will take out the first time sprouts.

Yes, I also plan to control the seeds as well. I got a late start last year as I didn't realize how bad this plant was until it was too late. The plant had already flowered and was producing fruit. I would pick any of the fruit that I found and burn it. I got POUNDS of the stuff but probably missed some that had fallen, etc. It was my hope that burning the fields would kill the remaining seeds I missed but I guess not. Each fruit contains a HUGE number of seeds. One plant can produce THOUSANDS.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

*Hemlock*

This is another one I am worried about but I think it might just be Queen Anne's Lace which the goats absolutely LOVE to eat. I will be checking tomorrow as this article looks to tell the difference quite well.

http://www.ravensroots.com/blog/2015/6/26/poison-hemlock-id

I never realized how bad some of these weed were in the past.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

At least I do not have any hemlock from what I can tell so that is good.

It seems new sproutings of horsenettle have really decreased. I just had to keep on this and keep pulling it anytime I see it. Some of the more established plants put up new stems after I pulled the first ones but you could tell the foliage was really yellowed so the plant was getting stressed. It also pulled out of the ground a lot easier. Maybe the second pulling will do it in or maybe it will be done with the next pulling. Either way I am glad to see that this is putting the hurt on the plant.

There is another weed with a fine fernlike leaf that is low to the ground. It has a lot of purple ball type flowers and looks much like purple clover from a distance. I looked up plants based on this description and I couldn't find it so it must not be too bad. I thought it might be hairy vetch at first but nope. The leaf looks like a really fine locust tree leaf. This seems to spread out low to the ground. Any ideas? Is this bad?

Conor


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Try Virginia Creeper.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

No, it isn't virginia creeper. It has small purple flowers that look like thistle. The stem is thorny as well but it isn't anything in the thistle family from what I can tell. I saw creeping thistles but that isn't it. It was out in the pasture in full sun. I would have gotten a picture but mowed over it yesterday.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I found it. It is this plant. https://uswildflowers.com/detail.php?SName=Mimosa microphylla  How bad is this one? I know the mimosa tree is an invasive weed and this looks like a relative. I was going to say it reminded me of a mimosa tree but is low and creeping.

Conor


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