# A few thoughts/questions



## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I didn't want to make separate threads for each because they're just small things
1. If you're buying a kid from someone, is it common for them to just name them, and when you take over ownership you just continue to call them that? Or will I be able to name my kid? Is it rude to ask if you can name them yourselves?
2. The person I'm buying off gets her goats disbudded at the vet. (It's expensive but I'm willing to pay) Do you think he should or will be banded or cut to be weathered at the same time? 
3. What are small things I can do in day to day care and feeding to avoid a UC. I agreed to get a wether before I found out about UC and I want to make sure I don't get it wrong and he ends up getting sick. He will be living with a doe so I wanna know things that I should feed and if its okay for the doe to have these things too. 
I think that's all for now.  Thankyou on advance.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

PiccoloGoat said:


> I didn't want to make separate threads for each because they're just small things
> 1. If you're buying a kid from someone, is it common for them to just name them, and when you take over ownership you just continue to call them that? Or will I be able to name my kid? Is it rude to ask if you can name them yourselves?


We always allow the new owners to choose the name. And no I wouldn't be offended if someone asked.


> 2. The person I'm buying off gets her goats disbudded at the vet. (It's expensive but I'm willing to pay) Do you think he should or will be banded or cut to be weathered at the same time?


No he should not get banded/cut when disbudded IMO. The main reason for UC is due to too early castration and the uretha doesn't have proper time to develop. disbudding is done between 1day to 3 days usually. I would wait at least until he is 4-6 weeks old before banding/cutting.


> 3. What are small things I can do in day to day care and feeding to avoid a UC. I agreed to get a wether before I found out about UC and I want to make sure I don't get it wrong and he ends up getting sick. He will be living with a doe so I wanna know things that I should feed and if its okay for the doe to have these things too. I think that's all for now.  Thankyou on advance.


To prevent UC, first is waiting as long as possible to castrate. Then, diet for wethers is very little if any grain - does can have this fine. And adding either apple cider vinegar or ammonia chloride to the wethers diet. I don't use ammonia, I prefer using apple cider vinegar - 2cups per 5gal water added once a week. Both the doe and the wether can drink it - it won't hurt her. And I've never had any issues now with UC. I learned this the hard way - getting a wether and not knowing anything about UC and neither did my vet. I lost that boy and learned everything I could about UC. We don't castrate our goats even for sale until at least two months old.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Thanks for your speedy reply. 

Can apple cider vinegar be bought at the grocery store? I don't think I'll give them any kind of grain they're just pets lol. 
I'm supposed to be able to take him home at 5 weeks, do I have to do the banding? D:


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Yes, ACV can be bought at the grocery store - at least in US it can. 
How far away is the breeder? Maybe you can ask if you can take him back to her to be banded/cut. Find out which method she uses for castration. I haven't banded before, I always use the burdizzo method. I would talk to her and tell her your concern about UC and that you'd like to wait as long as you can to have it done and if you can bring him back to her to get it done. If not, 5 weeks is better than earlier, ask her to do it the day before you pick him up.

ADDED: Personally, I would want the customer to bring him back to me at a later date just for the fact to prevent UC.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I'll have a look next time I go to the shops. 


The breeder is about four hours away. I could take him to the vet and get it done if we have to wait to do it, there are plenty of vets around I suppose


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Alyssa, keep it simple. Get the little boy castrated before you pick him up.

As I posted on another thread recently, the cause of urinary calculi is improper feeding with an unbalanced calcium to phosphorus ratio. Some people believe that wethering early contributes however it has not been proven and there are plenty of people who wether early, myself included, without any problems.

I sell my wethers as pets, I castrate at 1 - 2 wks old. I always suggest to their new owners to give young goats a cup or two of grain daily (Goat or Horse Muesli is fine or Goat or Calf pellets) until they are a year old to help them grow, after this just for pets they really only need their oaten hay _ad lib_ but can have a cup of grain as a treat. I also suggest they get a Go-Block mineral block, a Lactovite with copper block, and for wethers, a Stone Block. All made by Olssons and your local stockfeeds can order them in. Fresh water 24/7 is a must. A dollop of apple cider vinegar in the water every now and then is fine, and yes it can be just from the supermarket. Treats like carrots, apples, gingernut biscuits, wheatbix, sweet potato, pumpkin, banana etc are enjoyed but of course in moderation like everything.

Following this feeding schedule the little guys I have sold have done just fine, I have kept in touch with some of them and none have reported any urinary calculi issues. I am a big believer that urinary calculi is a feeding issue, not a wethering issue.

With his name, if she is getting him registered, she needs to have a name to do that. She may either choose it herself, or you could always ask if you can choose it. If he isnt being registered, then it doesnt matter. The doe if registered will obviously have a name already.

But - regardless of whether they have registered names or not - if you dont like them, you can simply call them something else, they learn their new names quickly.

Example - I just picked up a buck named Bambi, I have re-named him McLovin


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Thanks keren.  I'll contact her soon and see how she wants to do things
The doe isn't registered but I like her name anyway. 
Should I have all of those blocks out at the same time? Is oaten hay the most ideal? I want happy goats. :')


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

yep oaten hay is the best for them, or wheaten hay but thats hard to get, oaten hay is easy to find and basically the 'standard' hay. you want it to be good 'horse quality' oaten hay - it should smell sweet and not musty, and it should be yellow and green (or only green) not yellow and brown or only brown. and never ever feed it if the stalks have black spots on them . lucerne hay has too much protein and other stuff for just a couple pets, its great for milkers but absolutely not needed for your two pets. meadow/pasture/grassy hay is the opposite - not enough goodness in it, its basically just filler, and I find most goats wont eat it anyway. 

Yep I like to have all those blocks out. They will eat lots of the Go-Block and the Lactovite block. The Go-Block is designed for goats but for some idiotic reason they dont put copper in it. The Lactovite with Copper is a horse block and high in copper to compensate for no copper in the goat block. The Stone Block is ammonium chloride for your wether. Get the big square ones not the little brick sized ones and you probably wont need a new block for a year or two. Those three blocks, plus a Calcium/Molasses block near kidding time which you obviously dont need until some time in the future if you want to breed your doe, served me well and kept my goats healthy and happy for years when I was in the eastern states. We cant get Olssons products here in WA and I've really struggled trying to balance minerals for my goats, I still havent got it quite right yet I dont think but I'm getting there. My goats refuse point blank to eat the Pat Colby loose mineral mix. 

Oh! Kelp powder is also a great supplement for them, I offer a dish of it 2 - 3 times a week. 

If you didnt want to go the multiple lick block, you could instead use a liquid mineral called Nutrimol. Its pricey, but wouldnt be too bad for just two goats. You would put it either into their water, feed or syringe it down their throat weekly or monthly whatever you preferred. Its great stuff when a goat gets sick too.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

You're a great resource 

I thought we would have better minerals >.< I might get all the blocks to be easier. 
Where do you even buy hay from? Do you look online for listings or a feed store or something? (Wow I am so city :s)


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

lol being in the city is a bit harder, but hey I'm in a capital city too  what I had to do when I lived in suburbia was fine out which were the horsey/lifestyle suburbs, and take a drive out that way, and bingo - heaps of stock feed stores! I dont know sydney at all really, I just remember I bought a doe once from Dural and there seemed to be a lot of hobby blocks in that area.

A quick google brings up:

http://www.sydneyequestriansupplies.com.au/ at Ebenezer

http://www.macarthurstockfeeds.com.au/ at Camden

http://www.startlocal.com.au/miningagric/stockfeedssuppl/nsw_sydney/All_Stockfeeds_1816696.html at Box Hill

no idea if any of those are near you or not


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

http://www.local.com.au/find/Pet_Fo...nd_pharmaceutical_products/NSW/Western_Sydney


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

camden is closeish. I think near my boyfriends house in wallacia/mulgoa there are a lot of horsey people and farms. actually he has a friend who has horses i could maybe ask her.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I was just looking at the Olssons website and I'm confused. It says the Go-block has 3000mg/kg of copper. It also says its a new formula so maybe they came to their senses and added it in. because the lactovite + copper one has only 725mg/kg


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

huh. thats interesting. i know the go block i grabbed not that long ago still had no copper on the label. its the only block i can get here but maybe we still have old stock in wa. that would be fantastic if they finally added copper


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I'll just make sure I check the labels I suppose 
Also I asked her and she said she buys lucerne from that camden feed store >_<
although I found a business for hay in my area that seems good http://www.haysalesdirect.com.au/
and I may call up olssons tomorrow to ask about their stockists


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I'll just make sure I check the labels I suppose 
Also I asked her and she said she buys lucerne from that camden feed store >_<
although I found a business for hay in my area that seems good http://www.haysalesdirect.com.au/
and I may call up olssons tomorrow to ask about their stockists


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

PiccoloGoat said:


> I didn't want to make separate threads for each because they're just small things
> 1. If you're buying a kid from someone, is it common for them to just name them, and when you take over ownership you just continue to call them that? Or will I be able to name my kid? Is it rude to ask if you can name them yourselves?
> 2. The person I'm buying off gets her goats disbudded at the vet. (It's expensive but I'm willing to pay) Do you think he should or will be banded or cut to be weathered at the same time?
> 3. What are small things I can do in day to day care and feeding to avoid a UC. I agreed to get a wether before I found out about UC and I want to make sure I don't get it wrong and he ends up getting sick. He will be living with a doe so I wanna know things that I should feed and if its okay for the doe to have these things too.
> I think that's all for now.  Thankyou on advance.


I didn't read the other posts so I don't know what was already said sorry if there is some repeats!

1. When there a kid some times they will go named, but at least with what I've seen a lot of people let you name the goat and register all that good stuff. You don't have to keep calling them by there original name you can shorten it and make what ever you want out of it. I think you should be able to name your kid, no I don't really think its rude to ask lots of people ask to rename kids they get from us.

2. Did you say you wanted him to be weathered? I so then yes I think they will.

3. Hay,grass, and I do believe little to no grain not sure on the grain part though. Your going to want minerals if you don't already have them they should both have those. That's all that I can think of right now hope it helps!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

if yhe camden place has lucerne they will also have oaten


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

How about alfalfa?


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

keren said:


> As I posted on another thread recently, the cause of urinary calculi is improper feeding with an unbalanced calcium to phosphorus ratio. Some people believe that wethering early contributes however it has not been proven and there are plenty of people who wether early, myself included, without any problems.


Keren, I have to totally disagree with you on this. It has been proven several times over. Yes diet after castration plays an important role for wethers, however Every university study ever done has shown improper growth of the uretha when castrating too young leads to UC. Believe me after losing one of my favorite pets, a wether, to UC I did my research. I even have a State University locally who has a Ruminant division and has worked with other major universities on this subject. I have spoken to their professors in depth after losing my wether. It is a major contributing factor which is why wethers are more prone to it than bucks.

I am glad you have not had any problems with your castrating practices, but from my loss and my research and talking with these professors, I will never castrate a buck before 2 months of age.

Here's just some links for you from Universities on too early castrating.
Cornell Univerisity http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/4H/meatgoats/meatgoatfs10.htm
"It is less traumatic to castrate the kid when he is very young but this will make him more susceptible to urinary calculi because his urethra (the tube that carries his urine from his bladder to the opening in his penis) will not develop to its full size and is easier to clog up. Urinary calculi is when the urethra gets blocked up with mineral deposits and urine can not pass through it. If the deposits or "stones" are not somehow passed or dissolved, the kid's bladder will burst and he will die. Ideally, you should wait until your kid is 10 weeks old to castrate him but this is not always possible. "

Texas A&M
"Urinary Calculi are the result of minerals deposited within the urinary organs. These formations occur in either male or female of all species of livestock, but most frequently become a problem in the castrated male ruminant."


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Piccolo,

Take advise from anyone of us here, but I will provide the diet I use on my buck/wethers and since my loss have never had another issue of UC. I may be overkill on all this, but after losing an animal that was like family, I go overboard to protect my goats. It was a very horrible death.

They get all the free forage they can. I also offer hay free choice year round - orchard grass, crabgrass, peanut hay. Most hays are good but I do not use Timothy as it is too close of a calcium to phosphorus ratio - I like mine to be more than the recommended 2:1. Here's a good site listing the ratios http://www.guinealynx.info/hay_ratio.html

I also watch all mineral supplements/blocks for their calcium to phosphorus ratio - and so far I have not found many with the proper c : p ratio. I use the Producer's Pride Sheep and Goat block - it is a 3:1 ratio. I also put a cranberry mash out for them and ACV in their water supply.

They get 1/4cup per day of Producer's Pride All-Stock 12% sweet feed. I compared every brand of feed for mineral content and c : p ratio and salt content. Salt is important for preventing UC because it increases the thirst level of the goat making them drink more - also helping keep UC at bay. This brand to me was the best by far for mineral, salt and c : p ratio.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

i am not going.to get into an argument over wethering.practices except to say as i sid earlier many people practoce early castration without problems including in the uk qhere castration must be done early by law. 

remember we are in australia and do not get the brands that you have there. 

alyssa alfalfa is just the american term for lucerne.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I totally agree with Keren on diet vs castration being the main issue. Why? because I dealt with UC in a BUCK and guess where his blockage was............the very tip of his male parts called the pizzel - its the tiniest little pin hole that all the pee comes out of. So regardless of how large his urethra is the stones are NOT coming out as long as they are bigger then the size of a pin head! check the anatomy of your buck/wether one day, you will see. My buck had to have this little end cut off so he could live since the stone was so lodged in and would not come out. 

urethra size does not CAUSE stones -- what causes stones? its an in balance of calcium to phosphorus which needs to be 2:1 - if you keep that in balance there wont be any stones to get caught anywhere in the urinary tract of a goat.


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

On the topic of names... I call my goats what ever I want when I get them home. My first registered goats were named Bootsy and Anona on their papers, and i called them Rosemary and Thyme. My next two were named Dee and Klara and I called them Ivy and Nutmeg. lol. I find that half my goats don't care a whit what I call them as long as I have treats in my hand when I do so.... the rest if they get a new name learn it within a week as long as their name training involves, you got it, treats.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I register my goats one name and dont always call them that. Piglet is a prime example: her registered name is End of The Line Covert Affairs but we never call her that!


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

Just remember 2:1 is the minimum and upwards of 3:1 is actually better,if you haven't had your hay tested you may want to,I feed 2 nd cut mixed grass which tested out at 1.6:1 so i feed a mix of alfalfa and timothy pellets as well that I have calculated out to 2.86:1, the minerals I feed are 2:1 and I don't feed grain,they get a couple tbls of goat treat per day that are 2.5:1,my kids are 5 months old and still get 2 cups of milk per day each.i also feed as much forage as possible,so you have to look at everything and run the figures,at this point I could actually use to add a little more calcium. Its unlikely to give your goat to much calcium,most problems come from ph,diets high in grain and things like corn,sunflower seeds,peanuts mixed with a diet of mixed grass hay and little forage are likely to have a inverted ca: ph ratio. Goat hiker is a great resource and I'm sure if you asked her really nicely she could help you formulate a plan for feeding,also I didn't neuter until 3 months old and then I had the vet come out and burdizzo my boy,I would not have him neutered before you get him,wait as long as you can.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Keren,

I was not trying to offend you and apologize if I did. I do understand-semi-understand the laws in Australia differing regarding castration methods to prevent unnecessary pain. I must be uniformed though on some of the law. I had thought even there up until two months of age castration could be done. After that it had to be done as surgery by a vet. Again I apologize if I came off abrupt. We do differ on our regulations.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

i referred to laws in the UK not australia, andbonly.used them.as an example to show that some.places in the world practice ery early castration without dire consequences


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I have taken in everything said and have decided that ill just have him done before I get him. I think I can manage to keep his diet balanced enough and keep the risk to a minimum


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

What kind of pricing is $12 a bale for oaten? Good/bad/average?
The guy said he usually has a good stock of oaten (so i can depend on it) and he does free delivery for 10 or more bales.

if it's not a good price i can keep looking deeper.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

yep thats standard price. im.currently.paying $12.90 for wheaten, $12.50 for oaten and between $20 - 25 for lucerne


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Wow - more expensive than I thought but oh well good to know its not a rip off.  thankyou


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm now concerned about getting blocks because someone said they're too hard for the goats to lick or break to even consume enough?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

the blocks are fine. I have always given my goats blocks and they've not had problems with them at all, despite people on this forum telling me for years that they need loose minerals not a block. My goats would disagree. 

Blocks are standard in Australia, you will be hard pressed (no pun intended) to even find a decent loose mineral. Unless you mix up a Pat Colby mix, but my goats have always hated it and never touched it. 

You can give them kelp powder along with their block, they love it. Expensive though. Livamol powder is another option, but again expensive and my goats dont like it. 

There is also liquid minerals like Nutrimol. 

I honestly think your best bet is simply the Go Blocks, particularly if they have added copper to them.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Okay Thankyou. I think I just needed to be re assured that its okay haha. I'm getting very anxious and silly about it I'll admit. 
I'm definitely going to try the kelp stuff if I can find it.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

I do blocks as well - just make sure to put them in a place they won't get wet. You can also maybe find a cranberry block for bucks - They really go for that!


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