# Please Critique My 4 Nigerian Dwarf Does



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Hey guys!

I'm trying to learn more about conformation and would love if you could please critique my four does. It would also be really helpful if you could tell me what I need to look for when choosing a buck to breed them to this fall/winter. My goal is to produce other people with quality unregistered Nigerians that are great milk producers! You can also check out my website for more info Home | Dandy Hill Farm!

First up is Tilly!
Tilly is a 3 year old 50% Nigerian Dwarf and Pygmy mix. She was a FF last fall and was giving us 1 quart of milk in the morning while her twins nursed during the day!! Tilly is also the doe that has Polio and/or Listeria. These pictures where just taken earlier this week.
















Next is Sugar!
Sugar is a 2 year old purebred Nigerian Dwarf (she was registered, but DNA testing revealed her grandsire was incorrectly listed). She still comes from some great lines though! Sugar was an FF this spring. I also included udder pics.






































Next is Lucy!
Lucy is Tilly's 9 month old doeling. Lucy is 75% Nigerian Dwarf and 25% Pygmy


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

And last but not least is Dottie!
Dottie is Sugar's 3 1/2 month old doeling. She is full Nigerian Dwarf.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Pretty girls!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Pretty girls!


Thank you! 🥰


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

@Calistar @Morning Star Farm @alwaystj9 @CaramelKittey @FoxRidge @NorthRidge Farms 

What do you guys think?


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

I will have to come back to this thread when I have more time, but I like Sugar! Nice long rump, great rear leg angulation, and a very promising udder! Those rear udder attachments are fantastic!


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## i like my goats (Jul 16, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> And last but not least is Dottie!
> Dottie is Sugar's 3 1/2 month old doeling. She is full Nigerian Dwarf.
> View attachment 211332
> View attachment 211333
> View attachment 211334


There a so prity


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## alwaystj9 (Apr 10, 2019)

Do you own their sire?


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Calistar said:


> I will have to come back to this thread when I have more time, but I like Sugar! Nice long rump, great rear leg angulation, and a very promising udder! Those rear udder attachments are fantastic!


Okay! I would really appreciate that! Thanks!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

alwaystj9 said:


> Do you own their sire?


Who's sire?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Alright, really like Sugar's FF udder! Could use more medial and better teat placement, which should come with age. 😁 Awesome attachments, would be a keeper in my book! As for her body conformation, was she pinched down or was that a natural stance? She looks like she may have been squatted down a bit too far if she was pinched. 😉 Dottie's got great feet & leg placement IMO, awesome rear leg angulation. Great start to your herd! 

As far as the other two...hmm. Not a huge fan of Lucy's or Tilly's front end. Not 100% on this, but that could be a problem later on. Could just be stance, but do their knees look hyperextended to anybody else?  

It isn't super prominent, but I do see the pygmy influence in Tilly/Lucy and as a result they don't have that "dairy" look we are going for in our Nigerians. 😉 I don't know the rules on this really well, and it's totally up to you on whether or not you'd like to breed them, but I'm not sure if the kids could ever be registered from them. Not sure what the area around you is like, but I just don't want them to hold your herd back or anything. You've got a fantastic start with Sugar and Dottie! As you start keeping more kids from those two (which I would! Sugar's FF udder! ) just not sure if you would want to continue the Tilly/Lucy line. Just know that it is your herd, and totally up to you! If there are a lot of people searching for pet does in your area, maybe breed them just for that! I would keep an eye on their front ends and knees though. If they are hyperextended at all I personally would just let them live out their days as pets on your farm or another. 😁 We have a kinder doe living here as a pet.

(And if I sound blunt at all, just know there's a smile behind this screen that is very excited that your herd is coming off to a great start with Sugar and Dottie! Better than what I started with! 😁)


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

I looked at your website (awesome design btw!) and saw one thing I don't like about that buck - bad pasterns in the back legs. I see that in Lucy and really don't want that to be a problem in your herd. 😉 IMO I'm seeing a lot of the same flaws in Tilly/Aromeo, (posty legs, iffy pasterns, iffy front ends 😉) so if you could find a different buck that complements her better, I'd do that. 😁 And I mean this in a helpful way! I really do think you are off to a great start with Sugar/Dottie!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

CaramelKittey said:


> Alright, really like Sugar's FF udder! Could use more medial and better teat placement, which should come with age. 😁 Awesome attachments, would be a keeper in my book! As for her body conformation, was she pinched down or was that a natural stance? She looks like she may have been squatted down a bit too far if she was pinched. 😉 Dottie's got great feet & leg placement IMO, awesome rear leg angulation. Great start to your herd!
> 
> As far as the other two...hmm. Not a huge fan of Lucy's or Tilly's front end. Not 100% on this, but that could be a problem later on. Could just be stance, but do their knees look hyperextended to anybody else?
> 
> ...


That was sooo helpful CaramelKittey!! Thank you for taking your time to critique my does! No offence was taken (after all I was kinda asking for it though with posting this thread 😉). As for Sugar I'm so happy to hear that you like her! I do agree that she does have an awesome FF udder! I do hope that she will eventually have a better medial and teat placement. Her natural stance pretty close to the one where she's looking at the camera. The other two she's probably is pinched down a bit too much, but I also noticed that her rear legs are a bit too far udder her. I know they aren't set up the best, it was my first time setting up goats and after 3 tries, 3 hours, and 300+ pics these are they best we were able to get. 😉 

Yes I agree Tilly and Lucy are not the best. 😔 I don't THINK they have hyperextended knees though.... maybe just the camera angle??? Doesn't Willow (and her kids) from Weed'em & Reap have hyperextended knees??? Any Weed'em & Reap followers?!? Tilly and Lucy so far are walking just fine too, but thanks for pointing that out I"II keep a close eye on them! 🙂

Yes, Tilly and Lucy are a bit.....stocky, aren't they. I know I won't be able to registered any kids from them, I'm okay with that though. And I definitely won't keep any more kids from the Tilly/Lucy line (just the Sugar/Dottie line). Around my area there is a HUGE market for unregistered/pet quality Nigerians and Pygmys. I already have a waiting list for this fall/spring 2022 and will probably not have any doelings left! As for the boys, they are sometimes a bit harder to sell, but eventually we will find great homes for them too! I just don't think I could get "rid" of Tilly and Lucy! Tilly was one of our first goats, and Lucy was the first kid born on our little farm (well, actually she is second....but only to her brother by a couple seconds 🤣). But, If they do ever get hyperextended, I WILL stop breeding them and find a loving pet home for both of them since we don't have the space for "pet only" goats.



CaramelKittey said:


> I looked at your website (awesome design btw!) and saw one thing I don't like about that buck - bad pasterns in the back legs. I see that in Lucy and really don't want that to be a problem in your herd. 😉 IMO I'm seeing a lot of the same flaws in Tilly/Aromeo, (posty legs, iffy pasterns, iffy front ends 😉) so if you could find a different buck that complements her better, I'd do that. 😁 And I mean this in a helpful way! I really do think you are off to a great start with Sugar/Dottie!


Thanks! I agree Aromeo wasn't the best choice for Tilly. At that time I really wasn't into conformation (that's a long story that has really changed the direction of my herd and it all started with the purchase of a doeling with a teat spur.....) and just wanted cute, pet kids. I'm trying really hard to find a really nice buck to breed to the girls to this coming fall/winter. And hopefully I will be able to keep a doeling (or two 🤫) from Sugar and/or Dottie!! 

Thanks again! And I'm so happy that you think Sugar and Dottie are a great start to my little herd!!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

@CaramelKittey I just checked out your website and really like it!! I think you have a really nice looking herd! I also noticed that you use Wix too! 

Here's a few random pictures of the girls not set up and in their natural stances.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

Ok, coming back to this.

As I said before, I really like Sugar. I'd love to have that udder in my herd! Udder attachments are super snug, she has a nice rear udder arch, and foreudder is really nice and smooth. Medial is decent, and as her capacity increases with future freshenings, it will likely become more well-defined. Especially for a FF, she is NICE. The most important thing I look for in a FF is attachments because that's the thing that's going to degrade with age rather than improve, and hers are fantastic! She has great rump length and rear leg angulation and a nice strong head. For cons, I wish she had more brisket, and her neck and shoulders don't blend particularly well. Her front legs sit too far forward.

My second favorite is her daughter, and I can see a lot of the same traits in her. She's got the same long rump but also looks like she lacks blending through the neck and shoulders like her dam. She almost looks ewe-necked or something, but I don't think she necessarily is. She does look like she'll have really nice body capacity when she's older, and her front legs are better-placed than her dam's, straight under the withers rather than coming off the front. 

Tilly and Lucy both look like nice does, but clearly don't have the same dairy character as the mother/daughter pair. Tilly's teats are too widely spaced and her medial is weak. She has a really nice strong head and great depth of body though, probably from the Pygmy influence! Her rump is short and steep and she needs much better brisket extension. Lucy has more dairy character than her dam (which would make sense if she's only 1/4 Pygmy) and actually has a pretty decent topline. She needs a longer and more level rump, and again, needs more brisket extension.

Your buck is really cute but I can't tell a whole lot from the hairy photos except that his front legs turn out. I was trying to get a better look from the photo of him on the move, but the slideshow moves too fast, and I get frustrated with slideshows quickly lol.

Overall, you have a nice little starter herd! Especially if you're not planning on having registered goats, you've got some nice stock that can definitely be worked with. The main issue that I saw on all of your does was the front ends. Everyone was very flat in front, your herd consistently lacks brisket extension. I'd look for a buck with a nice strong brisket, smooth topline, and long rump to improve your herd. Legs in your herd look okay to me- I did not notice any hyperextension, and I have 3 in my herd with it so I feel like I know what to look for there lol. It could be the leg stripes causing optical illusions. If anything, some of them might be over at the knee a little, but I'm chalking that up to how they're standing in the grass. I also can't comment on feet/pasterns since the grass obstructs most of the photos.

Nice herd and nice website, it looks like you're off to a good start!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Calistar said:


> Ok, coming back to this.
> 
> As I said before, I really like Sugar. I'd love to have that udder in my herd! Udder attachments are super snug, she has a nice rear udder arch, and foreudder is really nice and smooth. Medial is decent, and as her capacity increases with future freshenings, it will likely become more well-defined. Especially for a FF, she is NICE. The most important thing I look for in a FF is attachments because that's the thing that's going to degrade with age rather than improve, and hers are fantastic! She has great rump length and rear leg angulation and a nice strong head. For cons, I wish she had more brisket, and her neck and shoulders don't blend particularly well. Her front legs sit too far forward.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much Calistar!! That was also very helpful!!! I see what you mean about they all have weak front ends. That is something I will look for when choosing a buck, as well as all the other suggestions you gave me!

Just to clarify, the buck on my website is not mine (and I mentioned that on my website). He is owned by a really good friend of mine who let me rent him for stud service to breed Tilly. I will not be using him again.😉 Sorry the slideshow was going too fast!!! I should probably change that! But in the meantime, you should be able to click on the pictures and then click on arrows on either side to change it when you are ready. 

Thanks again for critiquing my herd!! 🥰


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Yep! Hyperextended legs is what Penny/Willow/Winston all had. It gets worse with age so keep an eye on it. 😉

And thank you! Lol! Wix is awesome, so easy to use. I need better udders/front ends in my herd, and probably just better everything but it’s a start. 😁 If you don’t mind PMing me your location, I know some awesome herds from all over the country that might have reservations available if you’re ready for that! 😊


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

CaramelKittey said:


> Yep! Hyperextended legs is what Penny/Willow/Winston all had. It gets worse with age so keep an eye on it. 😉
> 
> And thank you! Lol! Wix is awesome, so easy to use. I need better udders/front ends in my herd, and probably just better everything but it’s a start. 😁 If you don’t mind PMing me your location, I know some awesome herds from all over the country that might have reservations available if you’re ready for that! 😊


Yes!!! I really love Wix too! Before using Wix, I tried some other free website creator (I think it was Weebly or Webs), and it was bad!! Super confusing and not at all easy for me to use! I would totally PM you, but don't know how! Lol! Could you PM me first? Maybe I can figure it out, I'm going to keep trying...…..if you don't hear from me soon though please PM me.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I would totally PM you, but don't know how! Lol! Could you PM me first? Maybe I can figure it out, I'm going to keep trying...…..if you don't hear from me soon though please PM me.


Never mind, I'm pretty sure I figured it!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Never mind, I'm pretty sure I figured it!


Yep! You got it!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Yep! You got it!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Yep! You got it!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

😄


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

@Morning Star Farm @FoxRidge

Do you guys have anything to add?


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## NorthRidge Farms (Jun 30, 2020)

Caramel gave amazing advice!


Late to the party but I figured I’d might as well give my 2 cents.

You already have a pretty nice herd, Your main strength looks like Length and capacity in the herd, I would find a buck with more
Brisket extension, dairy and levelness and a good mammary system to breed them to.

ill come back and critique the does when it’s a more reasonable hour 😅


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

NorthRidge Farms said:


> Caramel gave amazing advice!


I agree!!


NorthRidge Farms said:


> Late to the party but I figured I’d might as well give my 2 cents.


Better late than never! 😁


NorthRidge Farms said:


> You already have a pretty nice herd, Your main strength looks like Length and capacity in the herd, I would find a buck with more
> Brisket extension, dairy and levelness and a good mammary system to breed them to.


Okay, thanks!


NorthRidge Farms said:


> ill come back and critique the does when it’s a more reasonable hour 😅


I would really appreciate that!


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## NorthRidge Farms (Jun 30, 2020)

Sorry! Totally forgot to reply🤦‍♀️

First up Tilly,

I really like the overall build of this girl. Love the long triangular neck and long broad head, withers/shoulder blend smoothly into the neck. The length and depth of the body looks great. I'd find a dairy buck to breed her to. One with nice rear leg angulation and a front-end assembly. Topline is a good length as well but i'd like to see her chine more level. Same with sugar and Dottie, They both are pretty weak in the chine. I'd look for a buck with good brisket extension and strong in the chine area.

I personally really like the look of Lucy! She has a very dairy neck that blends smoothly into her shoulders and withers with a nice chine and great body capacity! I'd like to see a longer loin and rump on her, and her legs set more squarely under her shoulders. But she has very nice straight pasterns and what looks to be decent rear leg angulation.

I love the overall length on this doe. She'd be a keeper in my herd with that nice long/level rump! But I'd still like to see more levelness in the chine. forelegs and rear legs look good but needs improvement with her brisket extension. She could also use a little more body capacity but that'll improve over time.

I think you have great foundation goats! When you look for a buck i'd look for a more dairy one with levelness, length, and a strong front-end assembly. I have the perfect example of a buck i will get a photo of in a minute. He's corrected some of the steepest rumps i've seen in his kids, I'm always impressed to see how his kids turn out when bred to a doe with a steep rump or lacks in brisket


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Thank you so much @NorthRidge Farms!

That was very helpful! I really loved hearing everyone's opinions on my girls! Now I just have to find a good buck to breed them to, but because of everyone's suggestions, I have a pretty good idea what to look for when choosing one! 



NorthRidge Farms said:


> I have the perfect example of a buck i will get a photo of in a minute. He's corrected some of the steepest rumps i've seen in his kids, I'm always impressed to see how his kids turn out when bred to a doe with a steep rump or lacks in brisket


Great! Nevermind about finding a buck....because I think I just found one! Lol! Please do post pictures of him though! That's so awesome how he is improving your herd! Hopefully I can find an awesome buck like him!


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## NorthRidge Farms (Jun 30, 2020)

I’m still sort of new to the whole confirmation learning too so this also helps me out with the learning part 😁

this boy is my favorite buck confirmation-wise❤
if I had looked at his pedigree now I wouldn’t have bought him, but the confirmation he has thrown on these kids makes it impossible to get rid of him! Plus all his kids born here on our farm have been blue eyed and/or surprisingly covered in moon spots, which is always a nice added bonus ☺ The only things id like to see improvement on is width, length of neck, and body capacity. He’s only two so he still has a little time to mature 🙂


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

These threads are so helpful to me because I’m learning about confirmation, slowly but surely. 

@NorthRidge Farms, that’s a beautiful buck!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

NorthRidge Farms said:


> I’m still sort of new to the whole confirmation learning too so this also helps me out with the learning part 😁


Awesome! I agree this thread has helped me so much as well!


NorthRidge Farms said:


> this boy is my favorite buck confirmation-wise❤
> if I had looked at his pedigree now I wouldn’t have bought him, but the confirmation he has thrown on these kids makes it impossible to get rid of him! Plus all his kids born here on our farm have been blue eyed and/or surprisingly covered in moon spots, which is always a nice added bonus ☺ The only things id like to see improvement on is width, length of neck, and body capacity. He’s only two so he still has a little time to mature 🙂


Wow!! 🤩 He is NICE!!! What is his name?


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## FoxRidge (Aug 26, 2016)

So honestly i am not the best at this ask I only have 3 years with goats under my belt period lol but I'll try. Most of the pictures to me look slightly like the front end it angled away from the camera and could be giving the appearance of their front legs being too far forward. 

Sugar:
Like this doe! She is long and level and have a level rump as well,. Nice rear leg angulation. Slightly dips down behind the shoulders? Front legs too far forward? She has great potential, young does change a ton, that udder is excellent and will only get better with time!! Teats get longs, medial gets more defined and the attachment she has it should stay pretty snug!

Tilly:
He front legs appear to be too far out front, you want them to be directly below the should, better support and giving them a lovely brisket. Its very common fro ND's to have the legs too far out front. I'm trying to correct this in my herd. She does seem to have a level back, decent depth and a long neck. Her front canon bones appear short to me for some reason and she does have a short rump.

Dottie:
Nice long and level doeling, her rump appears just a bit shorter than moms but still fairly level. ND's generally have steeper rumps, not sayin they can't have gorgeous table top rumps, they certainly can and some do but like the front legs being too far forward it is more a common issue of steep rumps. She has nice rear angulation in the legs.

Lucy:
She has a level top line but a short rump. Front legs appear too far forward. She has decent depth and a nice neck line. Her picture seems very angled where she's facing a bit away.

I always end up using my sidewalk for stacking just because I can somewhat dissect my goat on the lines. People hate it because there's a bush behind my goat and it makes the features harder to see but it's the most level camera friendly spot I have, plus you can see their hoovies lol. No goat is perfect, you just gotta find a buck to compliment <3 I'll post a picture of Cavatina (Red buckskin doe) so you can see what I mean about legs too far forward compared to Koko (Black and white doe) whose legs are right under the shoulders.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Wow, so sorry for not responding to your post earlier @FoxRidge!! I really appreciated reading your thoughts and opinions! I agree with you on the camera being angled too far back. Sugar and Dottie's breeder told me that's how you are supposed to do it, but now I'm realizing it was her opinion and that it makes my does' front ends look extremely weak!! Now, their front ends could be better, but they look a lot better in person than the pictures I posted. I will definitely try again next year with everyone shaved, set up better, and on a surface where their hooves are visible. Also, thank you for posting comparison pictures of your beautiful girls!  I love to see things rather than to just read them!


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