# Questionable Breeding Practices



## cman4 (Mar 2, 2015)

Hi All! I wanted to get some feedback on breeder practices. I am new to goats but have had animals all my life, so I am not that green around the edges. Here is my story. I bought some three (A, B, C) goats on Sunday 3/1 from an ad on Craigslist that led me to believe I was getting them from a farm. Turns out it was from this person's house, in a city. I was told some vague story about how power went out in their barn and they were trying to make due. Two of the does A & B were not disbudded so it was done before we left, we were told they were about four weeks old. When we got them they seemed very skinny. The two who were disbudded didn't do well the first 24 hours, I attributed it to the disbudding. C seemed to do well but seemed very, very hungry. A didn't eat well on 3/2, I attributed it to the formula and switched to whole milk & buttermilk mixture. 3/3, A did better, B & C seemed fine. 3/4 all three seemed great. On 3/5, A refused to eat and was lethargic. She had snot and was sneezing, breathing seemed labored. I separated her from the others and started Nutri-Dent and electrolytes. By the evening she didn't perk up. I got up at 4:45 to give more electrolytes and nutria-dent. She couldn't stand at this point. By 6:00am she had died. I was planning on taking her to the vet today but she didn't make it. I took the other two B & C, and C has a respiratory infection and needs penicillin injections for six days , both have parasites and are on a dewormer. I was also told they are underweight and I need to feed them four times a day. When I called the breeder I was told the following: formula could have made them sick (I gave whole milk), they could have caught it from their bedding (brand new bedding from TSC in a large area blocked off in our detached garage), then I was told it was my responsibility to have picked out a healthy animal (I was brought the three goats from the basement and didn't get to see the others). My question is, does this seem a normal occurrence when purchasing goats? I have learned never to buy anything from Craiglist so I don't need that feedback. A life lesson was learned from this experience. Thanks, any feedback is appreciated. This was the first time I have ever bought goats and I don't know if this is typical or not.


----------



## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

Sorry for your bad experience! That is definitely not normal! They were clearly dishonest people who probably brought up the goats most likely to be having issues.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

No, not a normal breeder at all. When you go to a breeders place to pick out bottle babies, or any goats, you will normally be shown all the goats, and they should all be nice and healthy, in good condition, bright and alert. 
For future reference, if you go to someones place, and you can't go pick your own babies or see them, there's something wrong. And no babies, I don't care if they didn't have any power, no babies should ever be thin. No excuses. A good breeder has them on worming schedules, coccidia treatments, and real milk, or a good replacer that they will send you home with to get you started. 
They should also send you home with whatever feed they were eating so their stomach doesn't get upset if you change it suddenly. 
Sorry you had such a bad first experience.  Definitely look for a known breeder next time.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No definitely not normal, even for city goats. How can goats be healthy if they can't get fresh air and sunshine even if the pen is small? 
I see many red flags in your story.


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Things are not adding up here.
First, four week old kids have not lived long enough to pick up internal parasites. Sorry the vet is not up to speed. Not only that, we don't treat respetory illness with penicillin.
In some cities it is perfectly legal to have mini goats & it is normally less than 3.
If they were on formula before you got them that could have contributed to death/compromised system. The wholemilk & buttermilk was perfect, how much were they getting?
The disbudding should not have caused problem either. They always bounce right back from that.

eta and yes, these people sound shady


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree Nancy. I wonder though if it was cocci though.
Instead of parasite. Or maybe they were simply older then they said. 
There 's no shame on you for buying off Craig's list. I have met some awesome breeders off.Craig's list, you just had bad luck and got a crappy one 
But there's good advise here for the future. Don't just look at the goats your going to buy look at the whole herd, how they live and how clean the place is. I admit I have had it with a few buyers messing with my goats so I do pen the for sale goats up front, but the whole herd is visible from the fence, but I would.never hide them.


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

And... it was the seller's responsibility to sell you healthy animals. To blame you for not picking out healthy ones (and you didn't even pick) is irresponsible. Shady operation.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Penumonia is bacterial (usually) and treated with penicillin, or something stronger. If you switched from the formula to your whole milk recipe cold turkey that could cause problems, even if the formula wasn't good you still need to transition gradually to avoid shocking their system.


----------



## cman4 (Mar 2, 2015)

Thanks for the responses! I did take about 24 hours to switch, I started out half formula and half whole milk. As for the vet treatment she did see some parasites in the stool and blood. That goat could be older than four weeks because she is larger. The other one has now quit eating and is sneezing so we started her on penicillin today. I really don't feel like I have any other treatment options at this point and I need to do whatever I can to save the other two. The one that has quit eating is being given electrolytes and goat nutria-drench. I'm still offering her the bottle which she takes a little and stops. Now the other one has started having diarrhea but is eating, I'm also giving her some electrolytes just to make sure she stays hydrated. The breeder has quit returning my texts at this point. She did mention one other goat had pneumonia "but is fine now". I found that odd. I also stabbed myself with the needle after giving one of the goats their shots. If I get sick, take me to a vet. If I turn into a goat, keep me away from this breeder.


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

If you can her to respond, it might be helpful to know what medication she gave the goat that recovered. It might work for yours as well since they likely had the same thing.


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Sounds like a backyard breeder at it's finest. Occasionally, a goat or kid might become sick from the rehoming stress, change of food, etc. but what you experienced is not normal at all. Next time purchase from a reputable breeder. :hug:


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

So sorry  I hope these 2 can pull through. We've only ever had 1 bottle baby, and I remember she got diarrhea when we took her from mom @ 2 days old to bottle feed <triplet runt>. We put a little bit of powdered goat prefer probiotics in each bottle and she never scoured again. With the babies being on an antibiotic I would definitely give a little probios.

You definitely did not have a normal experience. So very sorry. I also want to say that not everyone on Craigslist is bad. We bought our 2 best percentage does off of Craigslist 5 years ago, and have bought a couple of other nice goats & buck off of Craigslist - all from reputable breeders and nice herds.


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

No matter who you buy from, always take a tour of their place and check the goats closely for health and care. If they say the goats are tested, ask for proof and ALWAYS collect papers the day you buy the animal.

Sometimes you get a bad gut feeling from someone..in that case listen to your gut and move on.


----------



## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I sell on craigalist. I show my whole farm. If someone is sick or injured I explain why. Stuff happens.

I have kids on bottle minimum of one week before they can leave. I make sure they are gaining weigh and pooping normally. 

I am a "back yard breeder". I dont breed purebreds or registered. Not all backyard breeders are bad.....


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Dayna said:


> I am a "back yard breeder". I don't breed purebreds or registered. Not all backyard breeders are bad.....


That doesn't make you a "backyard breeder", I personally hate that term as that is what a lot of people would probably call me when it comes to my stock dogs because I don't have a fancy house, there is still junk laying around from when this place was a junk yard, etc. The term gets misused a lot.
You take care of your animals, you're honest about what happens, and you tell them everything you can. Doesn't matter if they are not registered, that's commercial when it comes to goats. 

A "backyard breeder", would be exactly that person who the baby goats were bought from. They just wanted money, they didn't care if the kids weren't healthy or not.

No matter what your place looks like, how small the herd, registered or not. If they are taken care of and are healthy, you're a good breeder in my eyes :thumbup:


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

24 hours switching from replacer to milk is still too quick. When I switch, it's over several days. BUT...that doesn't sound like the entire problem. Are the babies dehydrated? Do the "skin tent" test...pinch up some skin...does it slip back into place or stay tented? If it stays tented, they need fluids. Are you comfortable giving subQ? Give sterile saline subQ in a couple different places to help with hydration. They wouldn't have gotten an upper resp infection overnight (usually). Even tho bedding was fresh, it could have been dustier than they were use to and could have caused some issues. 

I think I would be tempted to report to Craigslist. They most likely won't do anything, but you could save someone else from getting suckered like you did. Buying off CL isn't necessarily a bad thing. Like Jessica said, you can find some awesome people there. And you can find some questionable ones. Lesson to learn....even if you feel sorry for the animals...walk away if it seems wrong.


----------



## kc8lsk (Jan 10, 2014)

My first registered goat was free on craigslist he was in perfect health CAE/CL free the lady that was getting rid of him just didn't want to keep him for the summer without a doe to breed as she was not breeding her doe last fall. don't give up on craigslist just because you had a bad experience.


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

What really irks me is someone knowingly passing off sick stock as healthy and then blaming the buyer for purchasing them in good faith. Yes, goats can get sick at any time even with the very best of care (as we see on here all the time) and stress can certainly bring it on, but to use that as an excuse or opportunity to sell an animal that is already sick is wrong. Reputable breeders, OTOH, do their very best to provide stock that is healthy to the best of their knowledge. They want their animals to do well in their new homes; it's not just "take the money and run." :rant smilie:


----------



## kc8lsk (Jan 10, 2014)

I try to keep in touch with almost everyone who gets a goat from me at least for a month or two and I consider myself a backyard breeder even though I'm going registered and getting better conformation in my goats. (Thanks to The Goat Spot and the conformation threads)

I also sell mostly on craigslist.


----------



## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

Like most places, breeders are not all good or bad on Craig's list. I have bought very nice, well cared for goats and turned down others that l either didn't like the look of them or their home when I got there.


----------



## cman4 (Mar 2, 2015)

Thanks again for the help! They seem to be doing better. Someone on here said to do some probiotics, good idea which I'm going to start. They are doing much better and the one that wasn't eating has started again. This forum has been very helpful. I have seen the discussion about "backyard breeder" and such. Here is my thoughts, we have the backyard breeder, which means well and takes care of their animals. Not on the showy side of goat breeding but does well for the animal. Then we have the "junkyard breeder". The one who does it for money, no care for the animal, and just a shady overall operation. I unfortunately got caught up in the junk yard, black market goat mill. This has been a life lesson for my family that is for sure.


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Guys, I think you need to know what the term "backyard breeder" means before you call yourself one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_breeder If someone knows the meaning and calls themselves that then that's pretty bad. :shock:


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I think "goat hobbyist" is a better term, that's what people around here call themselves..


----------



## kc8lsk (Jan 10, 2014)

KW Farms said:


> Guys, I think you need to know what the term "backyard breeder" means before you call yourself one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_breeder If someone knows the meaning and calls themselves that then that's pretty bad. :shock:


OK I guess I should have looked up the definition. OOOPS!!! I love my goats and take care of them and as I said keep in touch with the people who get them from me so I guess I don't count as a backyard breeder.


----------



## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

KW Farms said:


> Guys, I think you need to know what the term "backyard breeder" means before you call yourself one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_breeder *If someone knows the meaning and calls themselves that then that's pretty bad*. :shock:


I don't care what wikipedia says (it can be written and edited by anyone). I AM a backyard breeder...and proud of it!! I care about my animals, I do the best I can for them to keep them healthy and happy. I only sell happy, healthy animals. But I am NOT a professional breeder...I'm a backyard breeder!!

That article, and ASPCA, both are incorrectly labeling us. "Backyard breeder" does NOT equal "puppy mill" or "mill breeder". :evil:


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Kat, it's not just wikipedia. It's a real term used for bad breeders. You're not a backyard breeder. Not sure why you'd call yourself one? :scratch:


----------



## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

KW Farms said:


> Kat, it's not just wikipedia. It's a real term used for bad breeders. You're not a backyard breeder. Not sure why you'd call yourself one? :scratch:


Well, then I guess I need to get on a campaign to change the meaning of "backyard breeder", because it's not the correct term to use for "BAD breeder".

As an example, there is a vet in my area who *is* a professional breeder...and sells stunted, poorly conformed goats. (I posted one she has for sale in the "critique" thread, poor stunted, dwarven, little thing). According to wiki's definition she would be a "backyard breeder"...
She's NOT, she's a "mill breeder".

As I said before and will continue to say, I *am* a backyard breeder, and I'm very proud of producing nice animals in my backyard. :thumbup:


----------



## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I am a small farmer who raises dairy goats for milk (and it's products), meat, and breeding stock. I own a whopping 1 acre!

Small farmer sounds so much more professional than back yard breeder.


----------

