# Lumps in all the bad places



## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

We were messing with the momma goats this afternoon, who are much tamer than their kids, when one of the kids actually decided to come up for scritches.

As I was scritching, I saw a lump on her side.

Then I found a lump in her chest.

And they are both scaly and losing hair, and slightly squishy.

*sigh*

No lumps on anyone else, and we checked them all. She's only 6 months old, so too young for the secretion test, right?

Pics for confirmation.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Definately separate her, those are getting ripe and ready to burst. You can send in the pus that comes from them to be tested as well as a blood test but I'd definatelty want to keep her separate and have them cleaned out. 6 months is the youngest a goat can be tested for CAE/ Cl


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

She is separated. How long until they burst you think? I'm going to try the formalin procedure recommended at TN Meat Goats, but it wont be here until monday or tuesday.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If it is squishy as you mentioned.... if she hits it....or rubs it ..just right.... it can burst at any time.... hopefully... she can hold out... til you can get formalin.... :hug:


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

Have you had any confirmed (by testing) cases of CL in any of your goats? If not, I wouldn't rule out something as simple as straw/hay abscess's. Definitely have the fluid tested for CL.... but also check for lice/mites as she could just have abscess's from splinters from rubbing on straw, hay, wood......because she is itchy.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

No, we just found it tonite and immediately put her in the quarantine pen.

I'm not too hopeful its anything else. One is right infront of her hip, and the other is on the right side of her chest next to the leg.

Any idea where to buy formalin locally? And has penicillian ever at least slowed it down?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I dont know -- formalin is used in embalming so I cant see it being easy to come by

I would have her at least blood tested first. But testing the gunk will let you know for sure. Then you can use the precaution of any other methods you so choose. I personally would just want to know what exactly I am dealing with. Because for the CL abscesses to form on just one doe in your herd who is so young seems odd but if so it means you have other infected goats more then likely who spread it to her. 

But like Jess said it could be from a bug bite, splinter or even an injection 

knowing the cause will greatly aid you in what your next steps should be.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Yeah, I thought it was strange too, but the two lumps are in the right places...

I'm going to inject some pen-d into both of them tonite. They've done some research down in Texas that showed Penicillian did make a difference.

http://www.cvbd.org/3054.0.html?&tx_ttnews[pointer]=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=1353&tx_ttnews[backPid]=3053&cHash=abbf36e4e8

My husband is off work tomorrow, so he is going to take her to the vet.

Sigh. And I think she is pregnant, which really pisses me off because she is too young and it would have been by her half brother before I bought them.

ETA: Formalin is the same as Ick Guard 2, which you buy to treat ick in fishes. So if it is CL, at least I know where to find it.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh you purchased her? I was under the impression she was one of your kids born, sorry. Yah then she could have contracted it where you purchased her from.

But hopefully the vet will aspirate the fluid/pus and send it off for testing, I would tell him thats what I wanted done.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Yeah, I purchased three does, all sisters, and their kids, one 3 month buck and one 5 month doeling. They've been here almost two months now, and this is the first lump I've seen, besides the jaw bite on Lady I freaked out about. 

So is there a chance this isn't CL? Her mom has no lesions at all, none of them do. She went from the place she was born, into our van, and into our yard. None of my previous goats have ever had lesions of any sort. And these just appeared so quick.

I guess I should go try and drain it, or should I wait until the vet looks at it and sends it off?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well if you can drain it and send it in for testing through WADDL that would save you the price of the vet trip :thumb:


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

What would I send it in?

ETA: Nevermind, found their website and instructions. And of course they wont be testing for CL again until next wednesday.

I feeling the beginning of a teeny, tiny itsy bitsy panic coming on. Very small.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Either way if you vet sends it out or you do you are at the mercy of when the labs are doing that specific testing. 

You can check with UC Davis to see if you can send it there.

I would call up WADDL and see what your options are. They are real nice. They may do the culture testing on a different day then the serology testing.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

If I go ahead and draw the pus tonite, but I can't get a red top until tomorrow, can I store the pus in the syringe in a baggie in a sealed box in my fridge?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes, it can be kept in the syringe until you can put it in a red top...the baggie is a good idea too, you don't want to contaminate the sample with anything else.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Ok. I'm off to doctor a goat. Wish me luck....


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

sending lots of luck your way


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Yep. Its CL. I tried to draw, and got nothing. I thought maybe I wasn't far enough in, so I held the lump better and tried again. And it began to rip. And cheesy white grossness with no odor came out.

Luckily we thought to do this on an open dog food bag with newspapers and rubber gloves. We are burning everything, including our clothes and the roll of papertowels.

I cleaned out both lumps, doused them with pen-d, and idodine.

She is now in a part of the yard inaccesable to the goats, and within that, an 8x10 kennel.

Heres my plan.

Draw blood on the other six goats. Send it in to waddl, have them tested. 

Negatives will get immediate dosage of Case-bac. Positives....I haven't decided that part yet. I got these goats to start over right. I wanted healthy, quality goats, that maybe I could get into breeding. Not big time, but just a little. And now my farm is possibly contaminated.

I even specifically asked the woman I bought them from if they had been tested for CL. She told me no, all came back negative.

This is really, really crappy. I'm hoping, maybe, maybe, she's the only one who has it since none of the others are showing signs, and she hasn't had an abcess burst in the almost two months she has been here.

Advice?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I would still send it in


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Could it be something else? I was going to draw her blood anyway, but dont give me any false hope.

Is CL tramsittable in the womb? or is it just thru the milk?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is most likely it came from that breeder you got it from.... but for peace of mind getting them tested will let you know for sure.....



> Is CL tramsittable in the womb? or is it just thru the milk?


 no ...it is from the icky stuff coming from the wound...very contagious....

because you have treated it carefully and properly.... it lessons the spreading of it..... There is still a risk to the area ...that the Doe is in.. if you let other goats in there.......but... there is only so much you can do with CL..... bleaching and disposing of everything is really smart..... :hug:


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

I would overnight it to UC davis.... they do testing on Tuesday's and Thursdays and you will get the results within 1-2 days if you have them email the results to you. You can also give them a call and "monitor" the testing LOL I am such a nag.... hi I'm just checking to make sure that my samples arrived....blah, blah, blah. They always have my results back in 24 hours.... probably because they are tired of talking to me. hahaha

It Sounds like you are doing the right thing for your other goats and this doeling. It is really a sad thing if the breeder lied to you about her herd being tested.  How disappointing to say the least. 

I'm sorry that you are having to go through this stress!!!! :hug:


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## KFOWLER (Oct 5, 2010)

U can get formalin online at valley vets.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

I didn't have any red-tops, and no where was open at 10pm that would. But we got some today and are going to overnight it tonite.

I also want to check and see if the females are pregnant. Do I need a seperate tube, or is one sample enough?

And looking at the long term, say half are positive, and half are negative. I keep them seperated, and vaccinate and retest the negatives for a year or so. If I kept them UTD on vaccines, and controlled the abcesses, could they reintergrate eventutally? Or is the risk too much.

I know RollFarms has positve goats, but I can't remember if they are seperated all the time from the positives.

I'm just praying, praying, praying that my Zeus doesn't have it. I could handle putting down or getting rid of any of the rest. But Zeus is all I have left of my original herd. Hopefully him and Metis are ok since no abcesses have burst in the big yard. Its not contagious thru saliva, right? 

I've been reading all night, and then when I slept I had nightmares about drawing blood and an abcess appear. I can't remember any of my data.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

if teh infected goats have CL abscesses in their lungs then they can transmit it through coughing if the abscesses burst.

For testing for pregnancy you send to biotracking - each goat needs its own vial of blood and you should have like 2ccs in each. You can also have them tested for CAE at the same time - if so provide 3-4ccs of blood for both tests.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Well, no one has been coughing. Hubby is home on thursdays and fridays, and I'm home on saturday and sunday. As much time as we spend outside, surely one of us would have heard them cough, right?

Texas A&M is who my vet uses, and they do test for CL, and since the vet is sending it in for me, it will be a little cheaper and will get there faster. I'm going to overnight it.


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

:hug: I have no wonderful advice, but just wanted to say..... so sorry your having to deal with this


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Poop. I can't overnight it to arrive by friday, because the last pickup is at 5, and I will be getting home at that time. I guess I'll draw on monday and send it then.

Checked on blackberry this morning. She seemed perky, and the wounds were not oozing. I'll check closer tonite and clean them some more with h202 and betadine. 

Are there any experimental cures I could try? And why can't heavy injectible antibiotics thru the blood stream kill the bacteria? How do they treat it in humans?


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I have not ever had a problem with CL, BUT I did have a friend that had a goat with a lump also. I lanced it squeezed it and it looked just like what you said. It was THICK, nasty and no smell. Took it to the vet and he was clean. We found a splinter in the nasyt.

SO I hope that is all it is. 
Have you contacted the people you got them from?


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Oh sweetgoats, that would be lovely. But with two of them with identical interior, and the fact it felt attached to the skin and not the body, I'm not getting my hopes up.

The woman I bought them from has been difficult to get a hold of since I paid her money. It took her almost a month and a half to get me their regsitration papers. I finally took me, very sweetly, offering to call AGS and have them find the names themselves.

Miraculously, she found them. 

And I dont want to contact her until I know for sure what it is. Which will hopefully be wednesday if they get there on saturday and they process the test on Monday.

I hope.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

So apparently my husband and I are massive fail at drawing blood. We poked my poor billy for about an hour in what we thought was the jugular. And for most of that time, he just chilled out and chewed his cud. we gave him breaks every ten minutes. We wanted to start with him because he is our bottle baby and wouldn't fight us.

We went back in the house and watched some more videos and read some more, and have decided to try again tomorrow. Fedex will do overnight saturday delivery. And this way the blood will be fresher when it gets tested on mondays.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

We got the blood! Plenty from everyone in lovely redtops, shipped overnight for monday morning testing. 

We cleaned Blackberry's wounds again. From what y'all said, I was prepared for the wounds to have fresh pus. But all she had was old, clumpy bloody pus. Is this a good sign? And none today. 

So hopefully I will know something by Wednesday....


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

hoping for good results on Wednesday ray:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

ray: Prayers sent your way for good results :hug:


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

First cyst/lump I saw in a friends herd (where my goats were staying), I absolutely panicked!! I had arrangements made to eliminate all of mine. Gone. I wasnt keeping CL positives, period...that's just my opinion. And as the week wore on more babies had cysts, it was just distressing to no-end.
Then results came back that it was a Staph infection, NOT CL!! Yippee! Come to realize that the babies were eating little thistles in the pasture and their "pokes" were getting infected. Thankfully, thistles gone = no more cysts. And better yet, I don't have thistles at all on my place, so none of my goats have issues with "pokies". 
So dont worry too much till you know for sure. I know that the wait is horrible, I'm sorry you have to go thru that....but it could be something very simple. I'm praying for it! Take care,


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Have you heard anything yet?


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

No not yet. I'm going to call tomorrow. 

Cleaned her wounds again tonite except they have already begun to dry up! Maybe she jut got poked with something and it got infected like Tracis goats.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Got the results.

Zeus and Metis-negative, thank god.

The rest-positive. Bella and Sagwa-weakly positive at a 16 each.

Blackberry was a 64.

Although I think they switched bella and blackberrys results, because they were backwards. Wouldn't an abcessed goat have a higher count?

Anyway, irrgardless, now Joshua and I have some hard decisions to make. I need your help and advice.

Obviously, I'm going to vaccinate Zeus and Metis ASAP. However, we think Metis is pregnant. Will the vaccination hurt the baby(s)?

Latte, our other buckling and Sagwas son, is supposedly 5 months old. I say supposedly because the woman also told me they were all CL negative. Is he young enough to not have an established case yet, and thusly able to be vaccinated?

And Lastly, can I vaccinate the weakly positive ones? Does weakly positive mean they definitely have it, or that they have been exposed to it?

And can CL+ goats be kept with CL- goats without spreading the contagious, if a rigourous vaccination and immediate abcess treatment regimen is put in place?

Thank you for any advice in advanced. I'm going to go have a drink, and wish the fleas of a thousand camels would decend upon the previous owner.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Hay Kate - I am so sorry. I will post when I get home (on my phone right now and it is just to much to type on a phone.)

XXXXX (hugs)

Allison


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Thanks Allison, I look forward to your reply.

I really, really dont know what to do. If I knew I could vaccinate the weakly positive goats, and it would keep them from abcessesing, I would simply do that, and put blackberry to sleep.

But if they are all doomed to cl, then I need to either sell them with full disclosure, or have them all put down.


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## Mon Reve Farm (Jun 25, 2010)

Kate - I'm so sorry you are going through this! Since I have never been through this I can't give you any advice on what to do. But we can be supportive on whatever you guys decide is the best next steps for your animals and farm.

Sending a hug :hug:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm so sorry :hug: It would be a huge responsibility on your part to be able to care for the positive goats and avoid cross contamination. We are here you to support you in whatever course of action you decide to take :hug:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

ok - sorry - last night we got home late and I was tired tired.

If they are positive, they are positive. Is what that number is is the degree of activity in the blood - and it is 2 fold. Meaning 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 and so on. Most of the time, the higher the number the more chance of an abcess being seen. If the number is lower, they are coming down from an outbreak or fixin' to have an outbreak. 

You mentioned the 5 month old - that one CAN be infected. Gestation on CL is as short as 45 days to receive a positive after exposure. IF it were me, and you really wanted to try to save the others that are negative at this time or have not been tested - I would test again in 30 days, again in 30 days, again in 30 days - and then vaccinate - HOWEVER, I would have the vaccine made from the strain of CL that you have to protect them. The commercial vaccine is like the flu vaccine - only works on certain strains. To make the vaccine, you must send in some of the exudos from a cl abcess to WADDL, have them pull an isolate, and then mail to Hygia to have the vaccine made.

I NEVER EVER EVER EVER reccommend keeping positives with negatives. Now if you absolutely do not want to cull (that would be my choice to cull - but that is me) then you can run two entirely seperate herds that are far away from each other and practice STRICT biosecurity - especially when an abcess is present. However, CL can be transfered to goats, sheep, horses, and even know of 1 human that contracted it. I personally will NOT chance it - ever! Also, when the abcesses rupture - they are dry matter. if it is windy at anytime once it drops off - the wind could potentially blow it straight to your other animals - small chance - but could happen - again, not something I personally would risk - but this is a decision that you and your hubby need to talk about and decide - it sucks.

You know how to get ahold of me 

XOXOX

Al


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Ok. we talked about it all weekend. We both agree we dont want to risk Zeus and Metis and their baby. But we feel like we should give the CL herd a chance. So I'm going to keep them away from zeus and metis for a week or so. And in that week, try and find them a home that will take CL+ goats. And even though they are sick, these are still quality goats. I'm hoping someone with cl+ will still take them.

However, if they are not adopted within that time, then we will put them down. 

And I'm writing the previous owner. The does are 3-4 years old. She owned them for two years. The likelihood that in those two years, none of the goats have ever had an abcess.....whatever. I'm still letting her know that because of either her negiligence or ignorance, all five will probably be destroyed.

Any suggestions or alterations?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

im sorry you have to make this decision but for the whole health of your herd and the rest of your goating adventures it might be for the best


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

I tentatively have someone lined up who will take them! He is very experienced with CL+ goats, and is wanting them for milk and brush removal. So a tentative yay!


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## Realfoodmama (Apr 13, 2010)

bbredmom said:


> I tentatively have someone lined up who will take them! He is very experienced with CL+ goats, and is wanting them for milk and brush removal. So a tentative yay!


 :clap:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am sorry about the test results very sad indeed.....  :hug: 


Glad you have someone lined up... to take those goats....congrats.... :thumb:


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Took the goats last night. Apparently she got screwed the same way we did-told goats were healthy, and within a year her entire herd was sick and dying. So she is going to start over, but only do CL+ goats. A rescue of sorts. Very nice, very professional, had individual crates set up for them and a table so she could examine them all before putting them out to pasture. 

So I feel good about it, but I'm still sad.


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

That's great news! You can still see them as long as you are careful to wash very well. Or maybe she can send pictures to you on facebook.

Gina

PS, if she is on Facebook, let me know and I'll friend her. She sounds very nice to do this.


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## Mon Reve Farm (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm sure it must have been hard for you... sending hugs!!

But in my opinion you did the right thing AND were blessed to find someone who could take them and didn't have to cull them.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Hey Everyone!

Whew its been a busy winter!

The CL+ goats are doing great in the their new home. No new lumps, and the mom checks them on a weekly basis.

Zeus and Metis are also lump and CL free, and are now done with their Case-Bac vaccinations, with just a little limping on their parts. We are still keeping them out of the "red zone"-in fact, all the animals are kept out of it. 

I'm really thinking that we missed a bullet here. Since no one was coughing or had an abcess explode in the general population, and I immediately started quarantening and vaccinations, I hope we will be ok. This spring will begin the fire/lime/bleach treatment of the red zone.

I do find it interesting that up until now I've gotten raggedy rescue goats from the flea market, and never had cl show up. I wonder if its similar to the prostitues in Africa who are exposed to HIV so much so early they develop a sort of immunity to it.

I haven't found her on facebook yet. I guess I should just email her and ask.


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## lissablack (Nov 30, 2009)

Thanks for the update. It sounds good. 

Jan


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

So happy to hear that everything has worked out :leap: 

Now, since you did use the vaccine, if at any time in the future as long as you are giving the vac, any blood testing done on them will come back positive...just a heads up in the case you didn't know. Also, when giving the vaccine, if the goat is positive to begin with, the vac will bring out the symptoms.


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

Yeah, I knew it could possibly go horribly wrong, but I weighed that risk against no giving them any protection, and just couldn't pass up the chance. And I vaccinated them right after heir negative test results, both for CL and preggers.

What is the youngest you can vaccinate for CL?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Hmmm...I'm not sure how old a kid would need to be to be safely vaccinated. Are you using the Colorado Serum brand of Case-Bac? There may be some info on the website.


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