# Condition of Goats and Feed advice



## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

Hi!
I've had three dairy goats for almost 2 months now.
1 saanen 4 yrs old 
1 lamancha mini 4 yrs old
1 nubian/alpine/oberhasli mix 1.5 yrs old

The Nubian came heavily infested with worms, but still acting very robust.
I treated her 3 times in a row with ivermecton via injection. Her third fecal came back clean. I kept her separate from the others until the clean test. I think her black hair might be turning a dark burnt orange color on the haunches. (Copper deficiency) She also has dandruff really bad.

The Lamancha was slightly a butterball and I have had absolutely no problems with her health, except that she looks like she might have lost weight, which makes me think I'm not feeding them properly.

The Saanen has declined some and I'm pretty worried about her. I just ordered Cruz copper bolus and plan to give it to all three.

1. The Saanen's coat was rough when we got her. 
2. She looked pretty skinny to me, but being brand new to goats, I really didn't know for sure. My husband fell in love with her instead of with her sister, who looked a lot healthier to me!
3. Her teats are bulbous. She has bumps on one teat that look like milk ducts and they leak milk out of them. The other side of the teat feels thin at the top and it leaks. Here's a forum showing a teat similar: http://familycow.proboards.com/thread/53784
The other teat looks slightly swollen towards the bottom and is much harder to milk out. It also leaks like the skin is damaged or thin on one side. In her first week here, that teat was hot to the touch (not the udder). My husband tried to lift her out of the truck by himself and she stumbled and landed on the side of the udder that gave blood in the milk (about 4 days later). She's gone through three rounds of having blood first in the swollen teat and then just as that's clearing up, the other teat starts having blood in it. This last time (June 8-13), it was much less noticeable than the first time, when it tinted all of the milk. This time, I didn't know it until the milk sat for a couple of days and there was blood staining the bottom of the jar. 
4. I have heard about the eyelid color test to see if they have a worm load, but I honestly don't know what color is bright pink, medium pink, pale pink etc... If I were to guess, I would say hers are pale pink, which is a bad sign. I want to deworm her, but we don't have a separate area to keep her in separate, but next to the other goats. The dog yard that we used for the nubian is too small for her, in my opinion. I have given her a Vitamin B shot SQ, but I was worried about it. I squirted Vit C in her mouth. I tried to get her to eat probiotic powder, but she won't touch it.

Please give me advice about the teat/udder issue and how to get them to overall health. I'm worried that I'm not feeding them properly.

Feeding:
1. They have a loose mineral mix made for goats, but it might be too cheap of a brand...it looks kind of generic. Red Edge Mineral Mix
2. I let them lick baking soda after giving them grain at milking time. 
3. They're getting a mix of things at milking time. I've tried various things (mainly because it sneaks up on me and I run out of stuff, so I have to throw something together). I know I'm supposed to switch slowly, but a couple times now I ran out of something and had to give something different. 
4. Currently, they are getting wet cob (which I just read can make them more copper deficient because of the high iron content). I try to mix with Goat Tender w/ kelp, but they hate it. I mix with Kountry Buffet, which also smells like it has molasses in it. They mostly nibble the corn out and leave the pellets.
5. I have done rolled oats/barley alone and they loved it. I soaked some things with apple cider vinegar and water, including black sunflower seeds and a little bit of peas, among other things. They liked it, but it made such a mess of the wooden feeding box (didn't drain it well enough, I guess). So far, they really don't like anything in pellet form. 
6. Grass hay, big armful twice a day, morning and evening.
7. I just started back in with alfalfa. While one goat is getting milked, the others are getting alfalfa and then I let them eat it a little longer afterward. I try to walk them around to eat blackberry and maple leaves, weeds etc...but we don't have enough fences up and I can't let them roam free because of the unfenced garden.

So please give me newbie advice!!! I've been pouring over books, websites and forums, but I just want to be told exactly what to do, lol...

My girlfriend that I bought the LaMancha from said that the Saanen looks terrible. I'm going to take some more pictures and upload them after this.

Thanks,
Angela


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Are you using baking powder or baking soda? Personally I don't leave it out and only use when there is bloat.

Can you post the labels to the mineral and feeds you are using? How much grain do you feed per day?


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## grindylo (May 15, 2014)

Looking forward to pictures! Then people more knowledgeable than I could give better suggestions.

As ksalvagno pointed out, you want to be using baking soda, not powder. Some people leave it out for them but I heard that the act of chewing cud is supposed to have an alkalizing reaction. If you let them rely on baking soda too much then when you really need it to work it might not be as effective.

Search Google for "famacha chart" to see the eyelid colors. If you think it's pale then it probably is. I don't think you really have to separate goats to deworm them... You would if they were sick with something bacterial or viral. It's easiest to deworm goats all on the same schedule anyways. Maybe get your goats tested for CAE and Johnnes to rule those out, especially the Saanen.

Wish I knew more about udder care. Haven't bred my does yet. That was interesting about the multiple teat ducts. Never saw that before.

Probiotic powder is great. Sprinkle it on top of some food they like. If you really need to then you can mix it with water and squirt it in their mouths with a syringe. Get some probiotic/multi-vitamin gel, too. Www.jefferspet.com is a good source.

Dandruff could be mites or a deficiency like selenium or zinc. You need a magnifying glass or microscope to see mites. If it isn't mites, sometimes a little extra fat in the diet helps, like feeding a couple teaspoons of black oil sunflower seeds each day. That helped my girls a lot.

It's unfortunate they aren't into pellets. They make it so easy. Definitely try mixing and transitioning their food slowly so they can get used to what _you want_ to feed them. I don't know what wet cob is. You said they liked rolled oats/barley so maybe try a more rounded mix with that... I think some people feed that (not sure if whole or rolled though) mixed with beet pulp (shreds or pellets), alfalfa pellets, and a goat feed. There was one goat feed I tried that wasn't made of pellets. It looked like a blend of different grains and stuff all rolled in a bit of molasses. That may have been the Purina brand... My goats went crazy over the first bag of it but the second one I bought seemed stickier and smelled weird. Returned it and went back to pellets. Could've been a fluke. I use Alfalfa pellets and Dumor goat feed, both from Tractor Supply. The only local feed store is a little pricier and very horse-specific. One of my girls eats all her grain bits first and then goes back for the alfalfa pellets when she gets hungry enough later. The saying "hunger is the best spice" also applies to goats, usually.

Hope that helped some! Good luck with your goats!


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

Thank you guys for answering so far! If I wrote baking powder, I meant to say soda, ha!! I have just been offering it to them a couple times while they're eating the grain (while being milked). I don't have a way to hold it on the feedbox, so I just hold it up to offer it and if they don't want it, I set it back down. They usually lick it a couple times or turn their nose up at it. The first time I even heard of the baking soda was from this video at 1:44 minutes: 



. In a different video, she mentions that she fills the grain trough on the milk stand and then puts that out in the yard for them to eat at will during the day. I was surprised at that because I thought you were supposed to limit their grain. What does everyone think of that? At first, I was really slow at milking, so I felt super guity that I kept giving them more and more grain. I think I'm going through a 50lb bag in 6 or 7 days (off the top of my head), with three goats...That sounds like an awful lot to me. I guess that translates to 2.5 to 3 pounds per goat per day. Is that too much? I'll look at the labels tomorrow. The wet cob is oats, barley and corn covered in molasses. I think the company is Nutrena.

I'm really nervous about putting pictures up of the goats because I was taking some pictures today and they were really dirty (from rubbing on a sappy tree and then laying in the dirt) and the Saanan looks so thin....I'm so worried about what people will say!!
---------------------------
Sheep, Goats, Chickens, Rabbits, a Calf and I'm not sure what else


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

Here are some pictures I could find on my computer. The ones from today are on my dh's phone, so I couldn't include them. The first 4 pics are from Jun 10, next 4 are from May 20, last 3 pics were right after we got the goats, on Apr 21. They have been rubbing on that big tree and getting SO dirty from it! Are they going to get poisoned from eating so much fir tree bark and I wonder if they will kill that poor tree?!?

The nubian cross was really wormy in the last pic (curly hair) and I didn't notice it before, but it looks like the copper deficiency was showing back then too (reddish hair on back legs)...
One of the pics of the Saanen looks like her ribs are sticking out really bad, but that's dirt from rubbing. She is way too skinny though, don't you think?? What can I do to help her??


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

I just found this about body condition:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

They don't look bad. The one milking is thin but she is milking.

It looks like the walls of her teats are weak. They are blown out which is why they are so big. Did you test for mastitis? I would get a CMT kit and test her.


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

*Lethargic, lower milk production*

You REALLY think the thin one looks okay? I've been so worried about her! But I guess looking at her Apr 21 pic and the Jun 10 pic, she has actually come up in weight. Looking at that video for body condition, I thought she was about a 1.5 or 2 on the scale (towards emaciation).

One other piece to this is that last night at milking, she had little energy to walk up our hill to the milk stand. Usually, she's first or second and she lagged way behind. Then she barely nibbled at her feed. She also gave me way less milk than usual. The most I've gotten at one milking is just shy of 1/2 gallon. Normally, it's about 1.5 quarts, which seems low to me? Last night it was shy of a whole quart 

I've been using the paper mastitis kit, is that not accurate enough? It's always come back negative, but I didn't have the paper test when I first had the problem with her, so I don't know if it was mastitis then or not (4 days after buying her). http://www.amazon.com/H-W-Naylor-30...&qid=1434466073&sr=8-2&keywords=mastitis+test

Also, the black goat's poop just started clumping together in a short log yesterday. It's like all of the pellets are squished together (can still see them). What does that mean? That happened when I was deworming her too.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

She doesn't look horrible but she definitely needs some groceries. You may want to give her probiotics daily for a while. I would also do Fortified B Complex shots maybe twice a week. Give her and the other girls a chewable vitamin C daily as well.

I would have a fecal to include coccidia for all the girls. Then tell us what they have so we can tell you what appropriate wormer to use.


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

How do you get them to take the probiotics? I have a powder form and they just turn their nose away. I have liquid vit. C & B. I've given her Vit B SQ 2 or 3 times now, but I was afraid it would cause a reaction. I don't know how to do IM shots. Do you just jab it into leg or rump muscle? She's been so skinny, I couldn't feel a good fleshy part. I did it in the tent under the shoulder. Should it be about 1.5 cc of B? How can I use the liquid C I have? I did kind of surprise her with it and squirt it in her mouth. She licked and licked but didn't hate me for it. Is that effective?

Thank you so much for help.


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

Here are the tags from what I'm feeding them:
They hate this: http://www.paybacknutrition.com/productinformation/GoatTender.html

Kountry Buffet (they nibble out the corn and leave the pellets): http://www.paybacknutrition.com/productinformation/KountryBuffet14.html

www.nutrenaworld.com Country Feeds COB:
Ingredients:
Grain products, Molasses Products, Propionic Acid (a preservative).
The grains are corn, oatmeal, barley.
Crude Protein: Min 8.0%
Crude Fat Min. 1.0%
Crude Fiber: Max 8.0%


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Bless your heart, you are trying so hard to make them happy and healthy! Copper bolusses are a great idea, and selenium too. You can get Selenium/Vitamin E in a gel form that you put into the mouths. Mine don't mind that too much.

Don't worry about separating for worming. No real need to do that.

Alfalfa pellets and small amounts of Black Oil Sunflower Seed (BOSS, as it is commonly called here) would be good considerations.

If the saanen were mine, I would strongly consider drying her up (GRADUALLY) and letting her put that energy into her own body condition. While she was dry, I would use Tomorrow every month until 2 months before she kids again.

Probios (probiotics) comes in a gel form that they may take better. I have vitamin C in a powder form. I have mixed it with water and shot it into their mouths with a syringe, no needle of course! It worked fine and no, they did not hate me. With those udder/teat issues I can only imagine that Vitamin C could help tremendously. And of course Vitamin C is great for everyone.

Also, Molly's Herbals fiascofarm.com may have some products that could help you.


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

Here are the labels for you to see what I have been feeding the goats at milking time. I just bought some 5 Grain scratch today because I was almost out of the Corn Oat and Barley and our little local feed store only 
Here are the tags from what I'm feeding them:
They hate this: http://www.paybacknutrition.com/productinformation/GoatTender.html

Kountry Buffet (they nibble out the corn and leave the pellets): http://www.paybacknutrition.com/productinformation/KountryBuffet14.html

www.nutrenaworld.com Country Feeds COB:
Ingredients:
Grain products, Molasses Products, Propionic Acid (a preservative).
The grains are corn, oatmeal, barley.
Crude Protein: Min 8.0%
Crude Fat Min. 1.0%
Crude Fiber: Max 8.0%


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What are the ingredients of the first 2?


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

Thank you Mariarose for your helpful comments. I am really wanting to do this right! 

What is Tomorrow? Can you not use that while they're in milk? 

My husband was really worried about spreading worms all over the property, so he wanted to confine the little one. The process took quite a while (30+ days), so by the time we introduced her to the other two goats, they wanted nothing to do with her and beat her up pretty bad. They tolerate her now, but they're still not very nice to her and don't share food or sleeping space well with her. The structure in the picture is just temporary for the summer and my husband plans to build a better lean-to before winter sets in. It's angled weird because of how the trees are growing, so I don't think the 2 dominant goats are letting the younger goat in. My husband does not want to deal with kidding at all for who knows how long, so that's part of why I'm hesitant to dry her up. 

She was supposed to be the best milker (by Saanen reputation), but we're only getting 6 to 7 cups per milking on a good day and she has dropped lower than that sometimes. Is that low? The Lamancha-mini gives the same amount and the Nubian/Alpine is giving a quart at each milking. 

Also, my husband works a lot and hasn't gotten around to making a holder for the hay, so that's why there's so much spread everywhere in their pen. Do I have to remove all of that each day or just the fecal matter? There's probably 8 bales full at least. It's about 1 foot deep in a lot of areas.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

No you can not use Tomorrow when a goat or cow is in milk. You have to use Today. Tomorrow and Today are mastitis medications.

You have to do what you have to do. I only told you what I would do if I owned the saanen. I would consider drying her up and let her heal. But I love kidding, and so does my darling husband. If you do not worm her, she is STILL shedding worm eggs wherever she goes. Refraining from worming while you find a large enough containment for her will not stop this process, so you may as well worm her.

As for the hay, do your best to keep it clean. Once a goat stands, pisses, poops, snorts in it, or sees an archenemy goat look at it, it is no longer fit to eat. Can you stuff it in a laundry basket or something until you come up with something else? You don't have to remove the cleaner dryer hay, just expect it to be bedding, not feed. It will never be feed again.

Consider fencing the garden, so that the goats can get out and browse. There are inexpensive electric enclosure options meant to enclose pet dogs at places like Petsmart and TSC. Perhaps that would help?

All your darlings need shelter. If your little one is left out in the rain/sun/drafts, perhaps you can get an extra large doghouse for her?

Best of luck, and have fun with them. The fun makes it all worth while. And keep reading. Goats are addictive, and learning about goats is even more so!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If she is the one getting beat up all the time, the stress could cause low milk production. Being wormy will also cause low milk production. If you have mastitis going on, you need to treat that.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I think it is the little Nubian/Alpine who is the outcast. Maybe I misunderstood?


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

Yes, the little Nubian/Alpine is the one getting knocked around. She's pretty quick to get away from them, but it has made her much more nervous.

I can't figure out where to find out what the Payback feeds have in them! Their bags or tags don't say and I can't find it on their website. 

Yes, I need to test the other goats for worms. The Nubian had a heavy worm load when I got her and I treated her 3 times in a row, but kept her away from the other goats. I guess I paid SOOO MUCH for the saanen that I thought she was the cream of the crop-in optimal shape! She was the very first goat we have ever purchased or even looked at up close, so even though I was reading a lot, I was still very uneducated and niave. The farm had a closed door policy for contamination reasons, so we drove about 20 feet into the driveway and they had a little pen set up to view 3 does and 3 kids. My husband liked this one's personality...she was very friendly and came right up to us to sniff us etc...The other one her age (4 yrs old) looked much more beautiful-whiter, shiny coat, nice sized teats, no visual problems of any sort. The third one was a year older and we wanted to go younger. I am the type of person who can't make a decision because I endlessly weigh everything, so I just told my husband to pick. He chose the one with large, bulbous teats that had bumps on it. I noticed the bumps, but I was so awed by everything that I didn't want to sound rude by asking questions like, "what's wrong with her??" Anyway, I will do it MUCH differently if we purchase again! I tried to find the website for the place we purchased, and they are no longer there. The site has gone back to domain name available....The lady never answered my emails... She said that once a goat leaves her place, they NEVER come back (for CAE/CL) reasons. All of her caution made me think I was getting the best of the best.... I don't think she intentionally deceived me, but the thought has crossed my mind that she knew some things were going wrong with her and that's why she decided to get sell. But I think it was the stress of the move that tipped her over the edge. She's looking a little better even this week though, so I'm hopeful. Waiting for the Copper Bolus to arrive and I need to do fecals....

My microscope is packed away somewhere, so I might have to take it in to the vet.http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Buy a cheap small trash can or two from the dollar store and mark out a eating hole on three sides a couple inches up from the bottom...use a utility knife to cut them out and screw to a wall or drill holes on the back and zip tie to the wall...voila - low waste hay feeders. You will save works and money


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

Thanks Erin L. I will have to try that! We did buy a $65 metal feeder, but my husband has been waiting to build their permanent housing to install that. In the meantime, we are throwing away a lot of money, ha! 

I did some housecleaning in their yard today and pulled a huge pile of loose hay to reuse with the cow. I put the hay that my son had thrown in the walkway for feeding today (that's where he had started always feeding them because it's easier)  and put it in a round metal tote butted up against the tree, but it could easily fall out or be thrown down. At least it's better! 

I'm so thankful for all of the great advice and input!! 

I just got back from a trip to the feedstore and I got a copy of the feed tags, and I bought some different things to slowly integrate, so I'll share that later. Once I find a really good mix, I'll stop changing things so much...

I'm really pleased that Bethany (the Saanen), is already looking better with the vitamin B and C and probiotics. Just waiting on the copper... is there anything else that would be eminent to do right now? I need to deworm probably. I have Ivermecton on hand. The vet told me to use Ivermecton SQ with the Nubian when she was wormy, but I thought I read that it should be oral with goats (unless they are super wormy, which she was). 

I don't know a livestock vet in my area. This is a dog/cat vet office that my son works at. So far, I haven't had to pay for the fecals, so that's been nice!! I think I'm out of freebies though.

Is there anything else that could be going on with her udder/teats besides mastitis that would cause the things I've mentioned (blood in milk etc)? She's apparently all cleared up now (nothing off about the milk) and she has always tested negative on the litmus tests for mastitis. Are these not accurate enough to rely on, since they are meant for cows?


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

Mariarose, I laughed out loud when I read: 
"Once a goat stands, pisses, poops, snorts in it, or sees an archenemy goat look at it, it is no longer fit to eat."

It's so true! I really had NO IDEA what I was getting myself into with these goats, lol. But I'm totally falling in love with them and I personally can't wait to have babies


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

I took pictures of Bethany today. I think she is looking better. All of the dark smudges are tree sap. Can I just give her a bath, or will that make her get sick? The copper bolus came in the mail and two out of three goats took it. The other is going to be more difficult!


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## angelaem (Jun 13, 2015)

How do you do a IM injection? I held it vertically in muscle part of side shoulder. Seemed to turn out ok but I was super nervous. I read somewhere to stick it straight in and that sounded very scary to me!


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