# Think you know what's in vaccines? Think again!



## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

Virtually everyone seems to agree that prevention is the best medicine. The question then becomes what forms of prevention are safe, what their risks are, and what types of prevention to use for various concerns. Proper nutrition and attention to worm loads (that can lead to nutritional deficiencies) is of paramount importance. The two sometimes seem to be interconnected. Copper deficiency, for example, can lead to increased worm loads and increased worm loads can in turn lead to nutritional deficiencies. But it is important to remember that nutrition and the basis of all nutrition, soil agronomy, does play a role in many pathological conditions.

But what many do not seem to question, or even think about, is the risks involved with vaccines. Do they really prevent disease, or do they cause disease? Do they strengthen or weaken a goat's immune system? Do they make them more susceptible to parasites? And what exactly do they contain?

Many show herds are not vaccinated because of abscesses that commonly occur after the administration of certain batches of the CD&T vaccine. But is there more to that than meets the eye? Is an abscess merely cosmetic or is it more serious than previously thought?

This has been posted in the best interest of the health of the animals we love and wish to protect. Unfortunately your veterinarian was NOT taught about the risks or ingredients of vaccines, Vaccinosis or vaccine side effects and long-term effects; and unless he/she has personally researched those topics, is as clueless as you might be. So we have to educate ourselves since we are ultimately responsible for the health of our animals. Please feel free to share this info with your vet and others!

I don't think there has ever been a goat owner that intentionally wanted to harm their goat, nor are vets meaning any harm. But that does not nullify the fact that there is a potential for harm with the little-known (and unknown) ingredients that every vaccine contains and how can one properly assess any risk to benefit ratio when no one really understands or even begins to comprehend what risks a vaccine contains? Thank you so much for reading and may we all learn to protect our animals from hidden dangers and harm.

You are welcome to read up on the subject before voting in the poll.

_ Please take a moment to read more:_
*
Vets on Vaccines* https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/vets-on-vaccines/

*Study finds that animal vaccines have no safeguards against contamination and contribute to serious pet diseases like cancer*
https://www.naturalnews.com/2018-04...have-no-safeguards-against-contamination.html

*Viruses and Virus Nucleic Acid Contaminate Many Vaccines* http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Viruses_and_Virus_Nucleic_Acid_Contaminate_Vaccines.php

*Retroviruses are contaminating vaccines: Are your pets at risk for serious illness?* https://health.news/2018-05-10-whea...ids-and-pets-at-risk-for-serious-illness.html

*Medical Doctors and PhD Scientists Speak Out Against Vaccinations *https://www.jchristoff.com/medical-doctors-and-phd-scientists-speak-out-against-vaccinations-2/

*All Vaccines May Be Contaminated with at least One Animal Retrovirus *http://www.collective-evolution.com...-chronic-liver-disease-aids-als-mecfs-autism/

* Vaccines and Retroviruses* https://healthimpactnews.com/2015/v...blower-reveals-what-the-government-is-hiding/
*
Retroviruses Contaminate the World's Vaccine Supply for Pets & Humans, Research Suggests *http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/re...-vaccine-supply-pets-humans-research-suggests
*
Glyphosate in Vaccines* https://www.momsacrossamerica.com/glyphosate_in_childhood_vaccines

*Glyphosate Found in Vaccines *https://www.ecowatch.com/glyphosate-vaccines-1999343362.html

*What is Glyphosate and How Does it Affect Us? *https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2018/05/15/glyphosate-in-food.aspx?

*What's Wrong With Glyphosate Anyway?* https://www.naturalblaze.com/2018/0...biome-genes-sexual-development-safe-dose.html

*Can Glyphosate Really Cause Birth Defects in Animals? *https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/glyphosate-fact-sheet
*
Vaccinations: A Word of Caution for Our Animals* http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/vaccinations-article-1.htm

*Vaccinations: Are Vaccines Really Safe or Are They Silent Killers?* http://www.holisticvetexpert.com/Danger-Vaccines!!.html

*Are You Concerned Over Genetically Modified Vaccines? *https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/10/02/vicky-debold-on-gmo-vaccines.aspx

*What Vaccines and GMOs Have in Common *http://www.organiclifestylemagazine.com/what-vaccines-and-gmos-have-in-common
*
Dr. Pitcairn on Vaccination: *http://www.drpitcairn.com/books/vaccinations/

*A New Look at Vaccines* http://www.drpitcairn.com/lectures-and-talks/new-look-at-vaccines/
Article on vaccination and alternatives by world-renowned holistic veterinarian Dr. Richard Pitcairn, D.V.M., Ph.D. (in veterinary microbiology and immunology)

*Homeopathic Alternatives to Vaccines *http://www.drpitcairn.com/lectures-and-talks/homeopathic-alternatives-to-vaccines/

*Why You Never Need the Tetanus Vaccine *https://www.naturalblaze.com/2013/05/why-you-never-need-tetanus-vaccine.html

*What You Haven't Been Told About Tetatus Vaccination *https://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork.com/tetanus-vaccination/

*Clostridial Bacteria Alternative Treatment (Tetanus, Enterotoxemia, etc.)*
https://www.firmeadowllc.com/store/p424/Herb_Mix_ClostridEaze™_(enterotoxemia,_overeating)_8_oz.html

*Why Vets Don't Recognize Vaccine Reactions *http://www.all-creatures.org/aip/nl-20120115-vaccines.html
Credentials of vets quoted in article: http://www.dogs4dogs.com/cv
(Of interest to note: Reduced milk production is on the list of vaccine reactions.)

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And for books on the subject, check out the following titles:

*Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History*
https://www.amazon.com/Dissolving-Illusions-Disease-Vaccines-Forgotten/dp/1480216895

*The Virus and the Vaccine: Contaminated Vaccine, Deadly Cancers and Government Neglect*
https://www.amazon.com/Virus-Vaccine-Contaminated-Cancers-Government/dp/0312342721/
EBook: https://www.amazon.com/Virus-Vaccine-Cancer-Causing-Contaminated-Americans-ebook/dp/B00DFFMZL4/

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As for videos, don't miss these:

https://www.VaccinesRevealed.com/

The Truth About Vaccines: https://go2.thetruthaboutvaccines.com/docuseries/episode-1/

https://www.jchristoff.com/medical-doctors-and-phd-scientists-speak-out-against-vaccinations-2/

Injecting Aluminum trailer: http://cinemalibrestudio.com/injecting-aluminum/index.html

Vaxxed trailer: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/vaxxed/177462230

Scientists Under Attack trailer: 




Vaccination: What CDC Documents and Science Reveal: 




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(And remember that many livestock/veterinary vaccines are produced by the same manufacturers as human vaccines.)

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Hope you will cast your vote in the poll! (The poll is not about what your views on vaccines are, but what your concerns about vaccine ingredients are.) Thank you so much for reading!


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

I tried to keep the above post on topic and covering what is found in virtually all or most vaccines. So basically ingredients that either the manufacturers admit are there or that can be found consistently via laboratory analysis. Retroviruses are now so common that virtually all vaccines contain them. And they are not mentioned in the list of ingredients.

But there are other forms of vaccine contamination. Contaminated vaccine batches or occasional vaccine contamination is an entirely different topic that deserves its own thread, but since most are completely unaware of it, I thought I'd include a few links that are of interest to us as goat owners.

Scrapie, a transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (a neurodegenerative/brain-deteriorating disease), has been transmitted to goats through contaminated vaccines:


*Contaminated Mycoplasma agalactiae vaccine*. In 1997 and 1998 there was an outbreak of scrapie in sheep and goats in Italy, and the cause was attributed to the vaccine. "This paper describes a recent outbreak of scrapie in sheep and goats which were exposed to the same vaccine. No ewes or goats had been imported into the herd since 1992, but a vaccine against Mycoplasma agalactiae had been administered twice, in 1995 and 1997. *High rates of crude mortality and scrapie incidence were experienced by both species*, all birth cohorts were involved and a large proportion of aged animals was affected. A pattern of brain lesions was observed, with slight differences between the sheep and goats, which was very similar to the pattern observed in animals previously exposed to the same vaccine but clearly different from that observed in the brains of sheep with scrapie in a flock not exposed to the vaccine. Regardless of their exposure status, genotype analysis of the sheep showed the presence of polymorphism only at codon 171. The patterns of both incidence and brain lesions provide evidence that the epidemic of scrapie was due to the use of the vaccine."[1] "An accidental intra- and interspecies transmission of scrapie occurred in Italy in 1997 and 1998 following exposure to a vaccine against Mycoplasma agalactiae. PrP(Sc) in affected sheep and goats, collected from a single flock exposed to vaccination 2 years earlier, was molecularly typed. In five animals with iatrogenic scrapie, a PrP(Sc) type with a 20 kDa core fragment was found in all areas of the brain investigated. In three sheep and one goat, this isoform co-occurred with a fully glycosylated isoform that had a protease-resistant backbone of 17 kDa, whereas in two sheep and four goats, the two PrP(Sc) types were detected in different regions of the brain. In sheep with natural field scrapie, a PrP(Sc) type with physico-chemical properties indistinguishable from the 20 kDa isoform was found. The present results suggest the co-presence of two prion strains in mammary gland and brain homogenates used for vaccination."[2][3]

Did you know that this was not the first time that Scrapie was spread by a vaccine?


*Contaminated Louping-ill vaccine. Also known as the 1935 Moredun Louping-ill Vaccine Disaster.*[4] "An investigation into the etiology of scrapie followed the vaccination of sheep for louping-ill virus with formalin-treated extracts of ovine lymphoid tissue unknowingly contaminated with scrapie prions (Gordon 1946). Two years later, more than 1500 sheep developed scrapie from this vaccine."[5] "This vaccine was manufactured using formalised sheep brains contaminated with scrapie agent" [6] "At the 1946 National Veterinary Medical Association of Great Britain and Ireland Annual Congress, W. S. Gordon, PhD, presented evidence of scrapie transmission by way of a vaccine for louping-ill." "Dr. Gordon developed... [a] vaccine to prevent louping-ill during 1931-32. After four years of field trials, his vaccine was produced in three batches for widespread use in 1935. The vaccine was made from brain, spinal cord, and spleen tissues taken from sheep five days after they had received an intracerebral inoculation of louping-ill virus. Formalin was added to the 10% saline suspension to inactivate the virus. During 1935 and 1936, no ill effects were noted in inoculated animals. Then two owners reported scrapie in their Blackface sheep who had been inoculated with louping-ill vaccine (batch 2) two and a half years earlier. Scrapie had not been seen in the Blackface breed before this. Upon investigation Dr. Gordon discovered that 8 lambs used to make batch 2 had been born to ewes who had been exposed to scrapie; some of the ewes developed scrapie in 1936-7. Dr. Gordon hypothesized that an "infective agent of scrapie" was present in the lambs' tissues used to make batch 2 and that this agent "could withstand a concentration of formalin...which inactivated the virus of louping ill; it could be transmitted by subcutaneous inoculation; it had an incubative period of two years or longer." A four-and-a-half-year experiment involving 788 sheep was initiated by the Animal Disease Research Association in 1938. The researchers found that 60% of normal sheep inoculated intracerebrally with saline suspensions of brain and spinal cord tissue taken from sheep with scrapie developed scrapie within those four-and-a-half-years. The incubation period was seven months and up... 30% of the sheep receiving a subcutaneous inoculation of the suspension developed scrapie in that time, and the incubation period in this group was 15 months and up." [7]
[All emphasis mine.]

*Scrapie* is no joke, it *is a very serious disease* that can be transmitted to goats and sheep. It has also been transmitted to mice, voles, rats, hamsters, gerbils, mink, cattle and monkeys in a laboratory setting. No one knows for certain whether it is transmissible to humans. But they used to say that a closely related disease, Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE, commonly known as Mad Cow Disease) wasn't and we now know that it is.

*Do you still believe that vaccines are risk-free?*

*And when you say that you think the benefits outweigh the risks - have you ever researched to assess what the risks might be?*​


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Personally as a librarian, I first research the sources quoted in the publication. I'm much more likely to weigh this information if it were from a reliable source such as UC Davis, OSU, etc. Also some of the sources are outdated by 60 years or more. All goat owners use vaccines or not depending on management philosophy, current information from reliable U.S. sourcing, and effectiveness in their own herd. Not sure in your personal purpose with the post.


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

Then there is Brucella, aka Brucellosis or Bang's Disease. When I first got into goats some folks were still talking about it. It's not the worry it once was and the good news is that most of the United States is Brucellosis-free.

It seems there are two potential ways for goats to contract the disease, either exposure to an infected animal or exposure to the infectious agent directly or indirectly via vaccination. Which means we're going to have to discuss the risk that vaccinated cattle pose to our goats. There is more than one Brucella vaccine on the market for cattle, but I cannot say that I was impressed with either of them, and you can see what I'm talking about below:


58% (53 of 92) of vaccinated cows aborted

25% (Of 8 cows vaccinated, 2 aborted)
Granted, the argument could be made that the timing of the administration of the Brucella vaccines could potentially affect its outcome, but they were administered according to the recommended schedule, and that does not nullify the findings in those studies and the fact that both vaccines can potentially induce the very effect they are supposed to protect against is rather disconcerting. (Brucellosis causes abortion, and both vaccines also caused abortions.) I think great progress has been made to eradicate the disease, but many herds were depopulated and many animals slaughtered to achieve that and too much credit was given to the immunization program. I am of the opinion that it is irresponsible to continue proliferating either strain of the disease via immunizations. The shedding period of Brucella vaccine can last for at least a year, and it is not available off-the-shelf because it's one of the more dangerous veterinary vaccines and is easily transmissible to humans. I've heard of a vet who spent six weeks in the hospital after accidentally getting pricked by the needle while trying to administer a Brucella vaccine. Anyhow, once infected the general recommendation is to cull the infected animal - the vaccination of infected animals does not cure nor alter the normal course of the disease. So once infected the animal remains infected and becomes a source of infection. Considering the fact that there are no known cases of infected animals in most of the U.S., and the fact that the main health concern the disease presents is abortion and the possible transmission to humans via the milk of infected animals, what is the point of potentially increasing what would seem to be a minimal or zero risk by introducing the infectious pathogen via vaccination? I think I remember reading a finding that after vaccination 10% of the milk samples tested positive for the disease. I'll have to see if I can find where I read that. But the point I'm trying to make is that it just doesn't make any sense to "protect" against a low or zero-risk threat by actually increasing its risk.

One of the most important aspects of disease prevention is taking appropriate precautions when purchasing stock -- ask questions and try to find out as much as you can about the health history of an animal (including vaccinations) and where it originated. Here's some history on Bang's from the cattle industry. And here's the latest status of the current eradication programs from APHIS. So why do some cattle operations continue to vaccinate for a bovine disease that has already been eradicated? Could it be because they are encouraged to do so by multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical interests? There certainly isn't any logical reason to vaccinate against a non-existent threat. But why are we talking about bovine diseases in a goat forum, you ask? Because it is transmissible to goats.

(Note: If you have or acquire other species of livestock, they can carry a different zoonotic strain of Brucella but the same prevention can be practiced, by purchasing stock from closed herds that have been tested free of this disease, or at the very least to have every animal tested before purchase or before introducing it to clean stock. This is not only to protect your goats and other livestock, but also in order to protect the disease-free status of your state and any persons drinking or consuming the dairy products produced by these animals. That prevents the route of transmission mentioned earlier (via an infected animal) but what many do not realize is that Brucellosis is a zoonotic disease - meaning it can be transmitted to different species - so one should utilize the same precautions with other livestock as well since the Brucella family of pathogens are not species specific.)

So, this is something further to consider if you get hay from fields that were fertilized with cattle manure. Ask if the cattle were vaccinated for Bang's (as it is commonly called in the cattle world) - not all are, and many are not. If so, ask when that occurred? And if your goats are exposed to fields where vaccinated cattle have been this is something you should be aware of. There is a very long shedding period after the administration of the Bang's vaccine to cattle, and that can easily last over a year - part of the reason is that cattle have far slower metabolisms than goats - but regardless, utilize proper precautions. Ask questions. Ask the right questions. This information has saved many goats from abortions (miscarriages) that were easily prevented by assessing the risks and taking proper precautions to avoid them. And sadly, many a goat has lost her pregnancy due to this very reason (shedding Brucella vaccine from other animals) and this problem is far more prevalent than we realize. Oftentimes, no one can figure out what went wrong, not even the vet, and the necropsy process fails to test for the other strains of Brucella, when they should be testing for all of them since it is a zoonotic disease.

And Brucellosis is transmissible to humans.

*Do you still believe that vaccines are harmless?*​


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

You gave a lot of references, it may be quite a while before I can make an informed opinion on the poll.


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

Dwarf Dad said:


> You gave a lot of references, it may be quite a while before I can make an informed opinion on the poll.


Feel free to take your time. That's why I'm keeping the poll open for 12 months.


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

goatblessings said:


> Personally as a librarian, I first research the sources quoted in the publication. I'm much more likely to weigh this information if it were from a reliable source such as UC Davis, OSU, etc. Also some of the sources are outdated by 60 years or more. All goat owners use vaccines or not depending on management philosophy, current information from reliable U.S. sourcing, and effectiveness in their own herd. Not sure in your personal purpose with the post.


As someone who grew up frequenting libraries, including our local university's medical library, I have been fortunate to have known and been helped by some extraordinary librarians.

From an economical standpoint, anyone who is familiar with the international situation understands that small livestock (goats and sheep) are not considered an important source of revenue in the United States. Over the years we have seen an increase in small businesses offering products to us, but anyone who has been around long enough remembers the day when there was hardly anything on the shelf specifically marketed for goats. There were some products for sheep, and very few at that. Cattle, and horses depending on where in the country you were, ruled the local agricultural supply stores. So there has not been much of a financial incentive for the United States government to fund research. The same goes for our universities. If you want reliable sources of information on scrapie, for example, the most thorough sources can be found in the United Kingdom, where they have spent decades researching sheep diseases. Sheep have always been an important source of revenue for the UK so their government invests heavily in research. (Historically England made their fortunes on wool and coal exports.) As one who has had family with access to tax data at a federal level, I can appreciate the situation even further. Since Scrapie is a disease that is transmissible to goats, and a serious one at that, I included it and have taken great care to reference trustworthy sources of information.

If a battle happened 60 years ago, it is not outdated, and it is not casually dismissed or forbidden to refer to it. If a disease outbreak occurred 60 years ago, no amount of time can diminish the importance of it, nor the effect it had and continues to have on subsequent generations. And the Scrapie outbreak in England was in 1938, so that is actually 80 years ago. But it contributed greatly to the spread of the disease on various farms and unfortunately went undetected for years before it could be contained. 18,000 sheep were injected with that vaccine. That is not a small number by any means. And that is why England referred to it as a vaccine disaster. That disaster was the largest outbreak of Scrapie that had happened up until then, before that Scrapie was an uncommon and isolated occurrence.

And consider that most of the sources of information I provided are of U.S. origin. Dr. Pitcairn is one of the world's most renowned veterinarians. I included links to many, many American veterinarians, scientists, doctors and studies.

As for effectiveness in one's own herd, there are many variables involved and one has to consider the reality that many of the negative side effects go undetected or unnoticed - some are listed in one of the links I provided. One should familiarize oneself with the fact that arthritis, premature aging, pregnancy difficulties, reduced milk yields and many other health challenges can actually be side effects from the toxic ingredients found in vaccines. These are not my words, but from some of the most accomplished veterinarians in the country.

Many of my friends are veterinarians, so I know of a retired vet who has been performing vaccine trials with one vaccine (CD&T) on their own herd, some years vaccinating and some years not. The results so far have been no benefit on the years they vaccinated and weaker animals the years they did.

Management philosophy is directly and indirectly influenced by the advertisement one is exposed to, the amount of education one has invested in and by the information that is made available to us as goat owners. Which is sadly lacking and one-sided.

This thread's intent is to open the debate on the safety of the ingredients of vaccines, not the practice of vaccination itself. Anyone is welcome to start a thread on that subject.

My purpose is to shed light on the topic of vaccine ingredients. I have no conflicts of interest as I have no affiliations with any of the organizations, businesses or institutions I have provided links to. Thank you for asking, it is important to always ask questions. On the flip side of the coin, there is a multi-billion dollar industry that can afford far more media coverage and reaches everyone with their biased messages. They are making a profit, I am not.


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## Deborah Haney (Jul 11, 2017)

Many of your references are biased. Naturalblaze.com, greenmedinfo.com, holisticvetexpert.com, organicconsumers.com, etc. and, as previously mentioned, are outdated. Furthermore, I have found that those who oppose life-saving vaccines use generalizations to scare people. For example, one of your photos lists 2-phenoxylethenol as antifreeze. 2-phenoxylethenol is not antifreeze. It is _in_ antifreeze, among other things, and it's a safe preservative to prevent microbial growth in vaccine batches, preventing outbreaks. Some of your links are also specifically referencing human vaccines. Just like with food, contamination is possible but extremely unlikely with proper use.

Your post (read: essay) also seems to flip back and forth between "vaccines are useless and unnecessary" and "some ingredients in animal vaccines should be more thoroughly researched." This is problematic in any case. We are so fortunate to live in a time where this technology is so available and the diseases they prevent are somewhere between "uncommon" and "forgotten."


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

Do humans have a long, storied history of going overboard and making a bad thing out of good things? Yes, yes we do. It doesn't necessisarily negate the foundation of the idea, just the lengths it's taken to. 
Is it good to approach allopathic medicine from a cautious, well informed position? Yes, of course. 
On the flip side, it's also commonly human to throw out good, useful ideas/practices because they are associated with other ideas/practices that the group finds abhorrent. 
It is also human nature to hold fast to our ideas and practices in the face of rational and reasoned debate, and in the face of clear evidence suggesting another route is perhaps, equally valid in some circumstances. 

It's important that we learn and understand the remedies, cures, medications we are using, in whatever capacity. Scare-mongering, on either side, simply entrenches folks who then become paralyzed because once they take a position they can't change it, unless they admit they were wrong or that they are ok causing the harm they fought so hard against.
This is a difficult position to be in, and one that most people try hard to avoid.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I’m a firm believer in vaccines and I also believe in only vaccinating against things that you would have a issue with. 2 examples I vaccinate against: CDT and pneumonia. I have had issues with both (all three counting tetanus). No I can honestly say I did not look into much of either one except that the animal was not going to drop dead right after giving the vaccine. I mean if that was a pretty common thing then no I think I would take my chances with the disease. But that wasn’t the case. Especially with pneumonia, it was silent pneumonia, I was having animals croaking on me, no warning no way to save them. Is there a certain risk to vaccines? Yes I’m sure there is. Am I maybe shaving a year off my Goats life? I don’t know possible but it’s better then death now. 
I think you are correct in people should weigh their options. For me those two diseases can be super fast killers with no sign before hand. But that’s my two cents here, no science behind it or anything


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## Davon (Sep 22, 2017)

This is a very controversial subject and emotions tend to run high when discussing it.

I went through a time in my life where I would have given such opinions a lot of credibility. After a while I came to realize that my fact filter was too porous and I needed to change how I looked at things if I didn't want to hold conflicting opinions. I suppose I could go through it step by step and say why I think these accusations against vaccines are meaningless, but that would take a few weeks and I don't think it would be a good use of my time. 

I can pick out one thing for a sample. 116 mcg of potassium chloride (used in lethal injection.) 

Well yes, it is, but it is also naturally present in our bodies. 116 mcg isn't even a drop compared to the amount in a lethal injection. It is used in much smaller doses at slower rates to replace electrolytes. 

Cyanide is present in small amounts in potatoes, but it isn't enough to harm us. Just because a big dose of cyanide would kill us doesn't mean we need to avoid potatoes. Even too much water can kill us, but we can't avoid it because of that.

If you believe that most scientists and doctors are wrong, my post will likely cause you to feel angry. I sympathize with that, because I have been there myself. I allow you to hold that opinion. Please don't require that others hold your opinion. It will make your life much less stressful and you will have a much higher chance of arriving at the truth.

Have a great day!


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

The poll options are extremely biased. If you believe in vaccinating, your options are that either you don't want to know or don't care. That kind of bias doesn't win your point of view over, and it doesn't incite people to read the information you put forth. A basic English 101 course will explain how to write persuasively and effectively.

I follow OSU's protocol, which is local to me, and they definitely suggest a CD&T. Tetanus can be on anything, and trying to figure out if it's tetanus while an animal is suffering is not the way I want to handle my livestock. Vaccinating against it prevents that problem from ever becoming a problem. You can't argue the fact that goats are injury prone, and all it takes is a puncture and the right bacteria being available for them to get it. Dog bites are a common transmission as well, if you've ever been bitten by a dog and had to go to the ER, you'll know that they update your TDAP while you are there, regardless of diphtheria and pertussis not being a concern due to the dog bite, but the tetanus is.

On that note, if *general* you don't want to vaccinate, that is your prerogative, I won't tell you otherwise, but to demonize others because they choose what they feel is best for their livestock's health isn't winning hearts and minds of anyone who might have listened to you before.


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

Deborah Haney said:


> as previously mentioned, are outdated


Scientific discoveries can never be outdated. Isaac Newton's discoveries are just as valid and relevant today as they were when he published his findings. Science does not become irrelevant over time. Gravity is still gravity. If you read further, you'll see that many of the studies referenced are actually quite recent and some are the latest published data available. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378372



Deborah Haney said:


> Some of your links are also specifically referencing human vaccines. Just like with food, contamination is possible but extremely unlikely with proper use.


That is rather contradictory. First you oppose referencing studies on human vaccines, even though many are made by the same manufacturers as veterinary biologics, then you refer to human "food", unless you meant to type feed.

And contamination is the result of manufacturing practices; proper usage has nothing to do with contamination. Since you mentioned food, perhaps those reading this would like to understand what food contamination consists of, and note that "usage" or consumer error does not constitute contamination, the products were contaminated before they reached the consumer who consumed them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_food_contamination_incidents



Deborah Haney said:


> greenmedinfo.com


As for GreenMedInfo, anyone who has been researching scientific studies knows that full papers are behind paywalls, and unless you are a scientist or can afford to pay for access to full papers, that site is a valuable resource that boasts a library valued at more than $100K. Doctors and veterinarians use the site regularly to read full papers affordably without breaking the bank.

One could argue that all scientific knowledge, findings and published studies should be public and free and accessible to all - at least the abstracts are - but that unfortunately is not current reality.



Deborah Haney said:


> 2-phenoxylethenol is not antifreeze. It is _in_ antifreeze, among other things, and it's a safe preservative


Thank you for sharing your opinion on a vaccine ingredient, 2-phenoxyethanol. If you find a study that proves its safety, I hope you will return and share that study with us. Until then, my research findings have shown quite the opposite:

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+5595
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20424565?dopt=Abstract


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

ISmellLikeGoats said:


> The poll options are extremely biased. If you believe in vaccinating, your options are that either you don't want to know or don't care. That kind of bias doesn't win your point of view over, and it doesn't incite people to read the information you put forth. A basic English 101 course will explain how to write persuasively and effectively.
> 
> I follow OSU's protocol, which is local to me, and they definitely suggest a CD&T. Tetanus can be on anything, and trying to figure out if it's tetanus while an animal is suffering is not the way I want to handle my livestock. Vaccinating against it prevents that problem from ever becoming a problem. You can't argue the fact that goats are injury prone, and all it takes is a puncture and the right bacteria being available for them to get it. Dog bites are a common transmission as well, if you've ever been bitten by a dog and had to go to the ER, you'll know that they update your TDAP while you are there, regardless of diphtheria and pertussis not being a concern due to the dog bite, but the tetanus is.
> 
> On that note, if *general* you don't want to vaccinate, that is your prerogative, I won't tell you otherwise, but to demonize others because they choose what they feel is best for their livestock's health isn't winning hearts and minds of anyone who might have listened to you before.


The poll asks the question, "Have you read about any of the risks of vaccine *ingredients*...". As your post seems to ignore the question altogether, your response seems to fit the "I don't want to know" category. The question is NOT whether you believe in the practice of vaccination.

After a general survey of fill-in-the-blank responses to the question, the poll vote choices are actually real-life responses from various folks around the country who responded - a big thank you to all of those who participated. With all due respect to the person who wrote the last response, he had inherited a property with feral goats who had been perfectly healthy for decades without any human intervention so understanding his background it isn't as bad as it sounds. By his own account, his goats were healthy and thriving so he really had no interest in vaccine ingredients and that was justified by the fact that he did not want to read about a practice he did not intend to use anyway. It wasn't that he didn't care, it was that he never had any reason to.

As for Tetanus, I live near some of the top hospitals in the country and know doctors who work in the ER, and they administer the Tetanus antitoxin, not the vaccine after a dog bite. Unless you've waited days or weeks to go to the ER, the antitoxin is the proper medical procedure. There are inferior doctors, clinics and hospitals who may do otherwise, but that is not what the literature has instructed. Tetanus is another Clostridial disease, and in order to develop usually requires a deep wound that does not bleed and seals up, admittedly not a common scenario. In the book, _The Barn Guide to Treating Dairy Cows Naturally_, it says it can be caused by a puncture wound, usually from sharp hardware protruding in a confined area such as a pen or stall. For livestock, flushing a puncture wound with hydrogen peroxide and tending to that wound is recommended in veterinary literature. It is non-contagious, so there is no worry of it spreading from animal to animal. In the unlikely situation that it ever develops, tetanus is easy to treat with a non-vaccine tetanus antitoxin (NOT the same as the tetanus vaccine - the antitoxin begins working immediately whereas the vaccine was not designed to treat infection) and antibiotics (preferably natural ones). For the sake of thoroughness, I'll quote the AL Coop Extension: "Tetanus does occur in cattle, particularly in older steers after castration, but it is not very common." (Wounds caused by castration and by dehorning are oftentimes not treated and prone to many different types of infections that could've been easily prevented by the sprinkling of an appropriate powder on the wound.)

Vaccinating against Tetanus is a questionable practice, in that Tetanus was never a widespread concern to begin with so one cannot say that it has helped reduce something that was already rare. As a toxoid vaccine, it was never designed to offer protection against the actual organism itself, so if you read the literature it was not intended to confer immunity against Clostridium tetani, only some degree of protection against the toxin the bacteria produces which is not what is traditionally considered immunity. Immunity would constitute protection against the pathogen, but that is not the case with any toxoid vaccine. There was a study wherein humans who were immunized against tetanus actually contracted a severe form of the disease: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1565228
https://www.naturalblaze.com/2013/05/why-you-never-need-tetanus-vaccine.html
https://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork.com/tetanus-vaccination/

Again, the poll is about vaccine ingredients. As I mentioned above, this thread's intent is to open the debate on the safety of the ingredients of vaccines, not the practice of vaccination itself. Anyone is welcome to start a thread on that subject.

If you wish to participate and vote in a poll regarding the practice of vaccination itself and whether or not you have administered, or continue to administer, vaccinations, you are welcome to do so. That is the first poll I created and you can vote here: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads...ccination-do-you-vaccinate-your-goats.197393/


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

Davon said:


> This is a very controversial subject and emotions tend to run high when discussing it.


One should never let one's emotions get in the way of reason. Why controversial? If I made a pie and you asked me what the ingredients were I would gladly tell you. Why should it create controversy merely to request an ingredient list? Or to share information about ingredients?



Davon said:


> If you believe that most scientists and doctors are wrong...


I believe nothing of the kind. Many of my closest friends are research scientists, medical doctors and veterinarians. I stand with the majority, and every health professional and researcher I've ever come across that reviews the data will point out a vaccine ingredient that they find needs more safety research or shouldn't be there in the first place due to safer ingredients that could've been used in their stead.

Consider this, at one of the recent medical conferences I attended it was stated that physicians receive less than an hour's worth of vaccine instruction which consists of when to give which vaccine. Everyone agreed, out of the hundreds of medical doctors who were in attendance from around the world, from countless medical schools, no one had had a single class in any med school about the ingredients of vaccines. So the vast majority of medical doctors are completely unaware of what is contained in vaccines and have no knowledge as to their safety. It seems to also be the case for most veterinarians, they really have no idea what is in them. The majority of those that educate themselves and research on their own come to an overwhelming conclusion: vaccines are not as safe as we have been told. There are far safer adjuvants available to the manufacturers to use, for example, but they continue to use the more toxic ones. Veterinarian immunologists are still largely misinformed about vaccinology according to Dr. Ronald D. Schultz, Professor and Chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin-Madison. Ask your vet how many studies on vaccines and vaccine ingredients they have read and if they can name the ingredients on a given vaccine. Ask your vet if they have a degree in immunology. Dr. Richard Pitcairn has a Ph.D. in Veterinary Microbiology and Immunology. Dr. Schultz has a Ph.D. in Immunology and Veterinary Pathology.

"Every procedure we do to ourselves or those in our care should be a useful one or there is no reason to do it. This may seem obvious, but bears mentioning, especially in the world of modern medicine. While vaccinations may confer immunity in animals, how effective or useful is it to repeat this procedure every year, as is the standard recommendation in this country today?

Immunology has recognized for a great many years that viruses in vaccinations confer a long-lived immunity. This is why your physician is not sending you postcards every year to repeat your small pox or polio vaccinations annually. They understand your immune system was adequately stimulated in childhood, and a cellular memory exists in you that will "wake up" if any future challenges from these viruses occur. Is there some profound difference in animals that makes us think they need to repeat their vaccinations yearly? Let me quote from the experts. The following was printed in Current Veterinary Therapy, volume XI, published several years ago (this is a very well respected, peer-reviewed book that is updated every four years). The authors are veterinary immunologists Ronald Schultz (University of Wisconsin) and Tom Phillips (Scrips Research Institute).

""A practice that was started many years ago and that lacks scientific validity or verification is annual revaccination. Almost without exception there is no immunologic requirement for annual revaccination. Immunity to viruses persists for years or for the life of the animal...... Furthermore, revaccination with most viral vaccines fails to stimulate an anamnestic (secondary) response.... The practice of annual vaccination in our opinion should be considered of questionable efficacy...""

In plain English, that means you are wasting a lot of money (and, as we'll see later, risking your animals' health) without much likelihood that your animal is actually becoming "boosted" each year. In other words, the immunity that was established in early life persists, and it is that immunity that actually interferes with subsequent vaccinations."[1]
--Dr. Will Falconer, DVM​
Watch and/or read for yourself. Over 71 doctors share their views on vaccines: https://www.jchristoff.com/medical-doctors-and-phd-scientists-speak-out-against-vaccinations-2/

http://www.organiclifestylemagazine...es-hear-from-those-who-have-done-the-research

To quote Dr. Deckoff-Jones, "They are lying to you about the quality or even the existence of safety data." And Jamie Deckoff-Jones, MD is a graduate of Harvard University and Albert Einstein College Of Medicine.

Vets on Vaccines: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/vets-on-vaccines/


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

This forum is not a place to argue, demean or ridicule others who have an opposing viewpoint. Many goat herd owners here have managed livestock for decades and have arrived at the conclusion that best fits their herd. It's nice to present facts and alternative sources, but please let people who are very invested, educated, and experienced manage their herd. Many of us have investigated alternative methods and use them or not depending on their best educated judgement. We try to be kind to one another and then "let it drop".


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I've stated it before, there are as many ways to manage goats as there are owners and goats themselves. If your goat is healthy, happy and thriving, then your way works. What works for one may not work for another, even in the same herd or from year to year with the same goat. A good goat owner/ caretaker will be able to adjust as needed to keep the critter healthy or eliminate discomfort and pain.


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

I find your response, as you not-so-eloquently put it, rude and demeaning. So, to add to my initial response and reiterate, your poll is biased. Regardless if you read the drivel you've posted from un-sanctioned and non-scholarly (i.e. opinion) websites and research, it does not make you a "don't want to know" or "don't care" category. I choose to read medical material that is published and written by professionals, not opinion based, but scientific based research. Show me articles published by the AVMA or OSU, Maryland small ruminants, etc. and I'll retract the "drivel" statement.

I choose to vaccinate because I have a degree in a medical field for humans, and know very well the consequences that can happen in non-vaccinated people and animals. I can tell you now that hospitals do not administer the anti-toxin to human beings unless they are showing signs of Tetanus, they are administered a TDaP to "remind" their T-cells to fight tetanus off if it is indeed present. That is why you get a booster every 10 years, as a reminder to your cells not to "forget" about this bacterial and how to fight it. 

Other than that, I'm done here. You are welcome to your opinion, but like what usually happens with extremely opinionated people, you think your way is the only way. Let me assure you, it isn't and many people raise healthy and happy livestock while vaccinating and using pharmaceuticals to treat major diseases, as well as some people never vaccinate and never have problems.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

The agenda raised it's head.


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## Deborah Haney (Jul 11, 2017)

Wow... This is quite the inflammatory thread (I'm guessing that was the original intention) so I'm gonna head out before someone gets hurt. I'll see some of y'all elsewhere.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Goats Rock said:


> I've stated it before, there are as many ways to manage goats as there are owners and goats themselves. If your goat is healthy, happy and thriving, then your way works. What works for one may not work for another, even in the same herd or from year to year with the same goat. A good goat owner/ caretaker will be able to adjust as needed to keep the critter healthy or eliminate discomfort and pain.


I can NOT agree with you more!!! 
So OP this was all just something to sell something?


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

ISmellLikeGoats said:


> Show me articles published by the AVMA or OSU, Maryland small ruminants, etc. and I'll retract the "drivel" statement.


https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2005.227.1066
https://www.avma.org/news/javmanews/pages/160701a.aspx
https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2005.227.1102
https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.231.1.94

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/avma-vaccine-report-surprises-skeptics

UC Davis Veterinary Medicine lists the work of Schultz RD in their references (Dr. Ronald D. Schultz).

Dr. Ron Schultz is a professor of immunology and founding chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin-Madison School of Veterinary Medicine and *is an author of the WSAVA and American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) guidelines*.

"[P]rofits are what vaccine critics believe is at the root of the profession's resistance to update its protocols. Without the lure of vaccines, clients might be less inclined to make yearly veterinary visits. Vaccines add up to 14 percent of the average practice's income, AAHA reports, and veterinarians stand to lose big, says Dr. Ron Schultz, a veterinary immunologist at the forefront of vaccine research and chair of the University of Wisconsin's Department of Pathobiological Sciences.

'I suspect some are ignoring my work,' says Schultz, who claims some distemper vaccines last as long as 15 years. 'Tying vaccinations into the annual visit became prominent in the 1980s and a way of practicing in the 1990s. Now veterinarians don't want to give it up.'"
"For North Carolina State University Professor Dr. Richard Ford, who worked on both the AAHA and AVMA documents, industry guidance couldn't come soon enough. 'What concerns me is the large number of vaccines coming into the market, and the fact that there are veterinarians who insist on vaccinating every dog and every cat with every vaccine every year,' Ford says. 'We cannot do this; it's too much.

'Are we vaccinating too often with too many vaccines? I'm afraid the answer is yes.'

*Fact box*

*Income vaccinations represent in the practice *

*Practice Average *

*< $500,000 15.9%*

*> $1 million 2.3%*

*Total: 14.1% *

_Source: AAHA Financial & Productivity Pulsepoints, Second Edition_"
(Dr. Ford received his DVM from Ohio State University)​
"Over the course of the last decade, veterinarians have undergone a major shift in their approach to canine and feline vaccination. They have evolved from a standard procedure of vaccinating dogs and cats for everything in each year to a more balanced approach of analyzing risks and benefits of vaccines for each individual animal."[1]
"But, as many veterinarians are realizing, over-vaccination can actually jeopardize a dog's health and even life. Side effects can cause skin problems, allergic reactions and autoimmune disease."[2]

https://www.vetsmall.theclinics.com/article/S0195-5616(01)50604-X/abstract

https://jvme.utpjournals.press/doi/abs/10.3138/jvme.30.2.152


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I do agree that vaccination is overused, particularly when you go to the Dr. to get stitches and they give you TDAP. First of all, that wound is very unlikely to grow tetanus, and second, that vaccine will not guard you-if they were actually concerned they would give you the ANTITOXIN, not TOXOID. (Capitalized because I don't see an option to italicize.)

But really, if you want to educate someone, go to the dog and cat people, as most of us goat folks really don't vaccinate for much or often.



aJadeMagnolia said:


> The poll asks the question, "Have you read about any of the risks of vaccine *ingredients*...".
> 
> Tetanus does occur in cattle, particularly in older steers after castration, but it is not very common." (Wounds caused by castration and by dehorning are oftentimes not treated and prone to many different types of infections that could've been easily prevented by the sprinkling of an appropriate powder on the wound.).....
> 
> ...


I have heard(and had) calves get tetanus from castration, so it isn't unheard of to me, whereas a bad vaccine reaction(other than lump with CD&T which I stopped using) is something I've never experienced or heard of, other than in cases where humans or dogs and cats get several combination vaccines at a time and have a reaction. If we are talking about one of two vaccines, I still think they are safe. I would ask this: if the human case of having a reaction to a vaccine as rare as unvaccinated humans actually getting tetanus, isn't it equaled out?


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Also, as far as farmers are concerned, tetanus is always a fatal disease to livestock, the rare time it does strike. If we've never had a bad reaction to the vaccine, why would we stop using it?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I have changed the poll to be bit less inflammatory... If people still find it to be too much please report it and it will be gone quickly, I am watching it.

It seems the op only knows half of the story. The research bounces around into a general "vaccines are bad" thing without specifically showing anything about the vaccines that goat owners normally use. Thimerosal and mercury would be more of an issue here and it isn't even mentioned. A persuasive argument would include the old '70's studies that show the titter counts from animal vaccines, the argument for using titter testing to set up vaccine schedules, and the studies involved in the new 3x3 protocols.

Vaccines are tools, herbs are tools, medicines, prevention schedules, diet choices, even grooming and cleaning schedules are all tools. I may choose to use a wrench on the same bolt another person would use a socket on, it doesn't mean that either is wrong.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Anyone looking at this from an APP will not see the survey. So don't be surprised if you don't see it.


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

goathiker said:


> Thimerosal and mercury would be more of an issue here and it isn't even mentioned.


Mercury was removed from veterinary vaccines decades ago.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

aJadeMagnolia said:


> Mercury was removed from veterinary vaccines decades ago.


Not sure where you got this idea. Thimerosal is FDA required in _all_ multidose vaccines, including CDT and pneumonia vials.

Thimerosal is a mercury based preservative containing ethylmercury.

Thimerasol _was_ removed from the vaccines given to children under age 6 in 2001 however.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

After reading the first couple responses from op I do not feel that op is looking for people's opinions more that he/she is looking to be agreed with or to argue. I vaccinate my goats and self because the benefits outway the risks. I follow the advise of goat farmers and breeders who have been breeding since the 60s. I do believe that everyone here has give you some really good advise that you should really consider.


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

goathiker said:


> Not sure where you got this idea. Thimerosal is FDA required in _all_ multidose vaccines, including CDT and pneumonia vials.
> 
> Thimerosal is a mercury based preservative containing ethylmercury.
> 
> Thimerasol _was_ removed from the vaccines given to children under age 6 in 2001 however.


You rightly referred to Thimerosal and mercury as two separate ingredients in your first post. You will note that I did not say that Thimerosal has been removed, merely what is commonly known as mercury.

Methyl mercury, sometimes called merthiolate, used to be a common ingredient in veterinary vaccines, and that is what I was referring to. Thimerosal, while also a mercury product, is actually a different form of mercury known as ethyl mercury, and was thought to be safer than the methyl form.

I know you already know about it, but allow me to explain for anyone reading this. Confusion arises because in human vaccines, the two terms - mercury and Thimerosal - are used interchangeably. In veterinary vaccines, however, using the two terms separately is referring to the two distinct forms of mercury known to the veterinary world, and Thimerosal is usually referred to by its brand name.

Veterinary biologics are not regulated by the FDA, they are regulated by the USDA. The FDA has done more to remove mercury from various products on the market, including over the counter medications, than any other government agency and merely requires that an antibacterial agent (such as, but not necessarily Thimerosal) be added to human vaccines in order to prevent them from spoiling. Thimerosal serves two purposes in a vaccine, a preservative and an adjuvant. There are alternative ingredients for both functions that vaccine manufacturers have available to them. There is no regulation that forces vaccine manufacturers to use Thimerosal.

Thimerosal is still contained in the standard flu shot that is administered to children, including the flu shot that is given to pregnant women.

*Thimerosal: A Sordid History*​Since its introduction 80 years ago, thimerosal has suffered a less than spectacular track record:

In 1967, a study in Applied Microbiology found thimerosal killed mice when added to vaccines.
In 1972, Eli Lilly found thimerosal to be "toxic to tissue cells" in concentrations as low as one part per million (PPM), *100 times weaker than in a typical vaccine*.
Despite all of this ongoing and emerging data, Eli Lilly continued to promote thimerosal as nontoxic, even including thimerosal in topical disinfectants.
In 1977, ten babies at a Toronto hospital died when an antiseptic preserved with thimerosal was dabbed on their umbilical cords.
In 1982, the FDA proposed a ban on over-the-counter products containing thimerosal.
In 1991, the FDA considered banning Thimerosal from animal vaccines.
In 2006, researchers at UC Davis published a study connecting thimerosal with disruptions in antigen-presenting cells known as dendritic cells obtained from mice. Researchers and parents had previously proposed links between childhood vaccines and autism, a neurodevelopmental disorder that affects language skills and social interactions. The UC Davis study showed that in addition to being a direct neurotoxicant, thimerosal may also be an immunotoxicant, leaving the immune system vulnerable to microbes and other external influences.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Just a reminder to keep it friendly, keep it fun. No personal attacks. All opinions are welcome as long as they are respectful.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Its quite easy to scare people with dramatic statements, half truths, and opinions. And thats mostly all I found here from the original post.

Like goathiker, I believe in using vaccines as a tool when needed or when its shown to be beneficial to the animal (including humans) and when the benefits outweigh the negatives.


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

Just for the record, in case those new to this thread want to know which ones were changed, the original poll answers numbers 8, 9 & 10 were completely changed.

Out of respect to the person that chose option 6 before it was edited, and no, I have absolutely no idea who that was, it used to read "I never heard of any of this, but wish I had."

I purposely chose to keep the voter's choices anonymous as I thought everyone would like their choices to remain private.

I wouldn't have mentioned it except for the fact that that one vote was cast with that choice before the answer was cut.

I am grateful that the poll question was left as it was originally; as were choice numbers 1 through 5; and number 7.

None of the poll choices were my words to begin with, so no harm done. The poll question I created. The answers I did not. Those were not answers that any one person could come up with. One gets some really odd answers when you have a fill-in-the-blank survey. But I explained this in a previous post. I arranged the order of the answers according to the percentage received in the original survey.

I suppose some folks didn't pay attention and got caught up in the heat of the moment and didn't stop to think it through.

After all, most farmers have heard a thing or two and know or at least can name some of the ingredients in a veterinary vaccine.

As for the previous original choices of #8 & #9 each was created by a different person who had written those respective answers on the original survey. Anyone who took issue with that failed to realize that there are folks out there who actually believe and say those things. You may not come across them in our online forums much but that is because they do not care about nor wish to participate in discussions relating to health.

And I don't know how anyone could say that they understand the risks and "feel" their way to a decision. A goat can feel like it wants to eat an entire bag of grain and that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Likewise a person can feel like having marzipan all day. Feelings are not a substitute for reason, knowledge and understanding.

Some of the answers are now completely unrelated to the question itself. Be that as it may we're talking about risks, not practices. Ingredients, not guidelines and schedules. I created a separate poll on the question of whether or not you choose to vaccinate your goats in a different thread.

Not sure if it was intentional or not, but for anyone interested the last choice "I understand the risks and take steps to minimize them" is not what some might think. To truly minimize a risk is to avoid it. Some thought the previous real-life answers formerly listed were not to their taste, but this new answer is the strongest statement on this thread thus far. So while that appears to leave those who believe vaccines are safe with one less choice, it actually does not. You see, the gentleman who wrote the original answer didn't vaccinate. A person who truly does not care about health does not spend money on health products. It is perhaps an overblown statement though, as no one can truly know the complete range of possible risk in all veterinary vaccines given our current situation.

Why not, you ask? The fact is that *the complete list of ingredients for most veterinary vaccines is proprietary information, which means vaccine manufacturers are not required to disclose their ingredients to the consumer.* Even if the consumer's pet or livestock has a reaction to a vaccine, the manufacturer is not required to divulge the ingredients of the vaccine.

The poll question is limited in scope for a reason. You see, anyone not interested in learning about any potential risks or not wanting to discuss known ingredients does not have to participate or bother to read this. Some have already researched the topic. This thread was created for those who might be interested in such matters. We're not discussing benefits, we're trying to focus on risks. There are countless posts throughout forums that talk about benefits. The benefits side of the argument is endlessly represented. *You can't walk into a store these days without hearing about how dangerous it is to live and about all of the benefits you can buy and that these products (vaccines) offer. Intelligent discussion of ingredients and the risks they might carry on the other hand is scarce, if you even hear about it at all.*

Some of the poll's answers are not indicative of the conclusion a person has arrived at with a certain line of thinking. To further explain my reasoning behind why the 'concerned' poll answers can fall into any of the ideological camps, consider that we've pretty much all come across the following scenarios at one point or another in our lives:
-One can say that one is concerned about one's sugar intake, and continue to eat candy all day.
-One can say that one is concerned about lung health and continue to smoke.
-One can say that one is concerned about getting enough exercise and not get around to it.
-One can say that one is concerned with the amounts of lead found in city water and continue drinking it.
The opposites are also true, one can be concerned and take proactive measures to address one's concern(s).
So the concerned statements do not indicate a person's decision one way or another, just that they are concerned. They can then act on their concern or not. And there is nothing wrong with being concerned. *If no one had any concern about health issues a good portion of this web site would not exist.* Concern is a very good thing, and can lead to further consideration of what caused the concern to begin with.

In other words, none of the answers are, nor have ever been, ideal anti-vaccine statements. *The poll choices are merely risk awareness assessment statements.* Apparently those who vehemently support or consider themselves pro-vaccine did not notice this. A person who has chosen against a certain vaccine, or perhaps even vaccines in general, would have preferred a statement that didn't state "does not worry me" because anyone who loves goats worries about the health of the North American goat herds in general. And being able to find new bloodlines is worrisome enough already as it is. Some researchers believe that vaccinations cause genetic damage, and those weakened genes will be passed down to future generations, following the laws of nature (the science of epigenetics).

If anyone would like to chime in and discuss an ingredient or share something you know about a particular risk please do. Just try to use common sense and don't say you "feel" a particular ingredient is "safe" unless you know that to be true. True medicine is not based on feelings, but on facts. If you don't know anything about vaccine ingredients, questions are most welcome too. At some point none of us knew anything about them either. The thing to do when you don't know is to begin to learn. Don't stay paralyzed by fear. Remember that mankind and livestock have been around for thousands and thousands of years and vaccines, and the risks they carry, are a recent invention. Read and research and discover for yourself.

There are more than two sides to the debate.

I'm not asking that my poll be changed again, quite the contrary, and I would like to thank everyone who voted for voting and to thank others in advance for the same.


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

Anyone who would like to read my posts on other subjects to determine whether they find my methods of research or thoroughness of any merit is welcome to do so.

My posts on the *Ivermectin in dairy animals*: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads...ilk-what-you-werent-told.197455/#post-2125152

My post on *copper*: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/copper-deficiency.197190/page-2#post-2125355

My post on a wormer comparison trial: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/effectiveness-of-herbal-wormers-vs-conventional-wormers.197451/

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/great-new-article-on-deworming.197263/#post-2124984

My post on poisonous plants to goats: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/plants-that-make-goats-sick.197431/#post-2124862

My post on *clipping goats*: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/do-you-clip-your-goats-in-the-summer.197447/#post-2125324

-----

Now to return to the topic of vaccine ingredients and risks, let us hear from Merck, a major vaccine manufacturer.

"*Encephalitis is inflammation of the brain* that occurs when a virus directly infects the brain or when a virus, *vaccine*, or something else triggers inflammation." -- Merck

https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/b...nerve-disorders/brain-infections/encephalitis










And last I checked, CAE stands for Caprine Arthritis *Encephalitis*.


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## yankeedoodle (Apr 13, 2018)

@aJadeMagnolia , are you actually a farmer?? Like currently? where do you get time for such long-winded posts? Are you a vet or something with all this professional mumbo jumbo? what is the actual point of this, is it to inform people of the risk , or to try and tell people how they should farm?
I personally don't vacc, and am very natural and if-you-cant-do-it-yourself-dont-do-it minded, but this sounds like a science essay to me not a farmer-helping-farmer suggestion. I mean, kudos to you for spending such a ridiculous amount of time researching so that others don't have to, but maybe you could start a web page with Weebly or something and then post the link here so that those interested can benefit of your extensive research without it being, well, kinda oppressive for others who just do there best to take care of there animals and don't necessarily need all this info unless they are interested. It can be kinda depressing to know so much without the means to really do anything about it. Maybe put up a post with some alternatives so that it is not just all doom and gloom.

I duno, maybe this is something only the mods should write, but I felt obliged, bcz judging by how many ppl have stopped following this, it doesn't look like your intent on this post is being recognized. I am sure that you are just wanting to help, but maybe there is a more positive way to do it, thats all. Like I touched on before, introducing solutions along with facts and problems will help people to get what your trying to communicate. I learned that in writing class.
But... I could be wrong.

My 2 cents.


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## aJadeMagnolia (May 18, 2018)

You are welcome to write anything you please, and questions are always welcome.

Yes, currently. I have a gaggle of geese, flocks of chickens, ducks, turkeys, cattle, sheep and a medium size herd of dairy goats. No, I'm not a vet. I've posted part of this elsewhere, but I know what it's like to work very long hours, and was partially raised on a farm where endless days and nights of hard work do not allow for much time to read the research or keep up with the wormer guideline changes let alone medical studies and discoveries. I remember countless nights spent tending incubators, assisting goat deliveries, cranking up generators during power outages to keep the chick's heaters going, and generally roughing the worst weather while most people were comfortably sitting at home. Some non-farmers have more time to look into these matters on account of their relatively shorter workdays and sometimes this paradox can contribute to some of the differences in views on food safety between farmers and consumers. Many farmers mean no harm, but are completely unaware of the consequences that their actions might have on the public health. I was fortunate to be able to eventually have the time for a more thorough education on medicine and food safety. I realize not every farmer/breeder has had the time so after years of looking into these things, I thought I'd share.

I mean no offense to anyone, I merely wish to shed light on a topic I don't see being talked about. When was the last time you heard of someone asking what was in a vaccine? And you'd be hard-pressed to find a vet that even has a clue. You can't "feel" that something is safe, or think it must be alright since everyone else seems to be doing it, you have to know for certain. So I don't provide opinions based on my personal feelings, what I have presented has been thoroughly researched, is very evidence-based and very grounded in sound science.

Anyone who has been in farming long enough knows that the vaccine guidelines have changed over the years, that previous wormer schedule recommendations are no longer considered healthy. Some of what was once thought to be true about OPP has been proven wrong. Farmers of all people should be the most concerned about important findings that effect the safety and efficacy of health management practices.

Depressing, well, I said above that "anyone who loves goats worries about the health of the North American goat herds in general" and truth cannot be sugar-coated. But we are so much better off knowing than not. No one likes to hear that the brakes on their truck are beginning to fail. But wouldn't you rather know?

And never lose hope. There are so many things we know now and so many resources we have at our disposal that weren't available years ago. On the bright side of things, some of the latest research in human medicine has been very exciting, and shows that some vaccine damage can be reversed and we now know that the human brain actually has the capability to heal. Research on the gut-brain connection has provided insights into some of the keys to treating and sometimes even reversing brain disorders.



yankeedoodle said:


> It can be kinda depressing to know so much without the means to really do anything about it. Maybe put up a post with some alternatives so that it is not just all doom and gloom.


Good point. Great idea. Thread created: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/vaccine-alternatives.197487/
Thank you! Hope you will chime in and share some of your experience and practices!

Ted Koppel once said that "Our society finds truth too strong a medicine to digest undiluted. In its purest form, truth is not a polite tap on the shoulder. It is a howling reproach." Boy am I glad I'm not a reporter.


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## yankeedoodle (Apr 13, 2018)

Ahh, hopefully I wasen't to rude.



yankeedoodle said:


> It can be kinda depressing to know so much without the means to really do anything about i


what I meant by this is the small hobbey/pet farmers who don't spend enough time around animals in general to really "know" there condition. If you are just a farmer than you can maintain strict bio security and keep a close eye on things . then, if something is off, you notice it right away and deal with it accordingly. But, ppl who have to just throw there animal some hay and then jump in the car and rush to work are kinda stuck just doin' what the vet says, and end up pumping all kinds of whatever in the animals to keep them alive. Probably exaggerated, but you get the point.

Thanks for the alternatives post. I am going to see about gettin' some of that stuff.

Now I just need time to look up all those links you put!!LOL


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

OK OP, that is way too much to read. Over kill. Most of us do not have the time to read through it all and this needs to stop with your threads.

When writing your posts, they are way too big, to many links and confusing, not keeping me wanting to go through it all, as I believe others feel the same.
Please keep it at a minimum if at all.
It makes it very cluttered and disliked.

We all use vaccines and have no ill effects most of the time.
There are those few animals, who do have a reaction to a vaccine.

My goats do just fine on the vaccines I do use.

As mentioned, even human vaccines are dangerous and have their risk, yet people still get them.

Sorry about the rant but, please keep it to a minimum or we may be forced to delete the threads written in this manor.

I do not want others to respond in a negative way.

Keep it friendly, keep it fun and a lot shorter, please OP.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestion to the OP, there could be interesting information but I honestly don't have time to read through it.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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