# Goat is dog aggressive?



## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

Edited. I got my answer! I will just do my best to separate them until the doe kids in march. She will then be sold. 

We all have different ways of doing things. My dog is my partner and is higher up on the "pecking order"
1. Me, Family, Children
2. My dog, other pets, and Young livestock
3. The livestock(goats, sheep, etc) and Horse

If the dog had an issue with any of the other goats, yes I would say it is a handler error and something was wrong, but he doesn't! Just this one doe. If that doe moves with the herd and doesn't try to get him he completely ignores her. The rest of the herd moves fluidly and do not show signs of stress. He can walk right under, around them, and through them in the barn and they don't bat
an eye. The doe has been doing this since he was a pup and he didn't ever touch her until he started to learn to herd at around 14mo.

I was just hoping maybe there was some magical method out there that could help but I think I was too hopeful. Thank you everyone for the suggestion and info. It really was appreciated.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I think @toth boer goats has herding dogs. Maybe she can help. Sorry you're having to deal with this. He does look like a sweet boy.


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## Iluvlilly! (Apr 6, 2019)

Oh no so sorry to hear that that is happening too your boy. He looks really sweet btw! It would definitely be very frustrating, hope someone will be along to help you soon, would suck if you had to sell the doe but I understand why you would!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Since the dog is more important, I would just plan on selling the doe. Understand she is doing her job, protecting the herd, which is the most important thing for her. Try to keep them completely out of sight of each other. You may want to bottle raise the kids so you can sell her faster. You MAY have another herd queen after you sell her that exhibits the same qualities....I'm not a personal fan of herding dogs with goats, but some people make it work. Hopefully someone has some magic to recommend.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

goatblessings said:


> Since the dog is more important, I would just plan on selling the doe. Understand she is doing her job, protecting the herd, which is the most important thing for her. Try to keep them completely out of sight of each other. You may want to bottle raise the kids so you can sell her faster. You MAY have another herd queen after you sell her that exhibits the same qualities....I'm not a personal fan of herding dogs with goats, but some people make it work. Hopefully someone has some magic to recommend.


Yeah, that is the plan come march(assuming she doesn't go into heat before then). I do understand that. Especially where she was raised, but it isn't just dogs. It was also with the foal when I got him, pushy with children, any baby goats that are in the herd whether being dam raised or bottle raised, and the cats. She can be nasty doe but if it is just me or her liked adult herdmates she is a complete sweetheart. I

She isn't like the other herd queens, or even bucks/rams we met when he(dog) was training. They would sometimes turn and try to stand off and dogs were taught to nip the back legs, or the face if they didn't run from that. After that, they would get right back into the herd and wouldn't try again. She just must be super stubborn or protective. He was great before with the herd, everyone ignored him after a few weeks of introducing him as pup. Once he got a few months older that's when she first started charging at him, but even then I would call him over and that was it they would be fine and could walk right past each other. Once I got flighty sheep then I started fighting with the dog on trying to herd them all the time and gave in. Turned out to be lots of fun and super helpful. But also when the goat started to really go at him and because of what he was taught he would try and move her and it only escalated from there.

It will be hard to keep them separate. I use the dog to move everyone out of the barn when I have to fill the hay feeder. A lot of them are horrible about getting in and it makes a 5 minute job 30 minutes. Takes even longer if I had to pull them all out by hand and they end up breaking in again one way or another anyways.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

The dog isn’t a LGD and should not be with the goats.

Biting the goats is not a good thing. Herding dogs must be supervised at all times around goats or not be around them at all. 

That dog looks like a German Shepard to me and are working dogs, but mind set is not good as a LGD. 
Especially untrained and not corrected. As the dog grows and learns.
Not safe for goats.

It sounds like the doe has been made to be mean, trying to fight off the dog being in her space and and maybe harming her at one time.

Some dominant does are great teachers, for true LGD pups, the dogs are supposed to keep their distance not play with, bite, chase any goat. 
The doe is correct in what she is doing with the dog. Especially if the dog is being too playful ect.

I do not agree with a shock collar on a pregnant doe or one who is just trying to protect herself. 
She is most likely mean because she is insecure and scared, so she is fighting back it seems to me.

The dog needs to be separated from the goats. 

The doe will try to kill the dog even more when she kids. 

I am saddened about the whole thing.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I think that Sandy is using the dog as a herding dog, not as and LGD. Right @SandyNubians?


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

Seperate dog from goats.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I agree with Toth. The doe is hitting the dog because she's afraid of it, and the more she fears him the more she's going to fight him and try to keep him away from herself and her herd. This is only going to escalate as her pregnancy progresses, and once she kids she could hurt her own babies by trying too hard to defend them. I think this is a problem you inadvertently caused by allowing and encouraging your dog to nip and bite goats that wouldn't move. You thought that if the dog were a little more aggressive the goat would back down and start running from him, but the exact opposite occurred. When it comes to "fight or flight," the top goats in the herd are more likely to fight even to the death rather than leave their herd undefended. Removing this herd queen may solve your problem for a while, but there's a good chance that the new herd queen will eventually take on the role of defender and the problem will repeat. 

I think what you should have done from the beginning was to call the dog off the second the goat turned on it so as to let the goat know the dog was not a threat. You want your goats to respect your dog--not fear him. Respect requires trust, and a dog that is allowed to nip or bite goats can't be trusted. If your herd queen knew the dog would never hurt her or escalate a fight, she would probably not have resorted to attacking him. Other than keeping them separated, I don't know if you can resolve the issue between these particular animals now that it's gotten so out of hand, but at least you can learn from this problem so it doesn't happen again in the future. You want your yourself, your goats, and your dog to have a good working relationship built on mutual trust and respect. That can't happen if the dog is allowed to frighten/hurt your goats and vice versa.


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## AndersonRanch (Oct 18, 2020)

If you notice those that use herding dogs on goats, to actually herd, they usually use border collies. BC are really not enforcer by biting and "attacking" a goat, they simply stress the goats until they move. A lot of people will use goats to teach a more aggressive herding dog for the exact reason your doe is doing. They will fight back but not harm the dog like a cow would. But the goats are just there for that trainer for the dog, they do not plan to breed and profit from the goat, or make a pet out of it. Honestly even if you sell this goat if your puppy is biting them all of your goats are going to end up being like this doe and your dog IS going to end up being more aggressive towards them, and when you go on your simple walks the goats are going to be on the fight. If you love both the goats and the dog, stop the herding. I have a Queensland and he is a VERY aggressive herding dog with the cattle, but the goats are 100% OFF LIMITS! There has been a few times when he was younger and the goats didn't trust him and he got butted. He was NOT allowed to bite them and when he did he was in BIG trouble over it. The goats eventually learned that he is not a threat to them. When I'm out there he will sack out with the goats, lay right by me when they are kidding, clean baby butts and no one gets bent out of shape.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

Well, I had a whole thing written up. Of course app stopped working :\

The dog does not live with the goats. He lives inside the house with me. He has seperation anxiety so even If I wanted him to, he would not go out alone. All the other goats completley leave him alone(And him them, unless we are working) aside from this one does. I may not have made it super clear in the OP, but she was the one who first started. She began starting to hit/try and hit when he was 4 months. At which point the plan was for the dog to ingonre them which he did. If he was hit he would run to me or do the goofy play legs in the air. Never used his mouth. It wasn't until he was around 13mo that I got him into training for herding. He was then taught to nip and that was when it started.

This dog was trained by a professional. I did not do it myself. She trains BC and AS. Some are for competing or sheep and yes, are taught not to bite. Big nono. However, my dog I had him in the strictly working animal training. Since I have mainly goats she trains similarly to what she uses for training cows. They are encouraged and taught to bit the back feet if the animals stops or it standoff. If the animal continues she allows the dog to use pressure however is deemed necessary to get the animal moving. That could be biting the face or shoulder. They are not, however, allowed to hold the bite. It is a very quick bite and releases. My dog ended up in the vet once because of her and has ended up with several cuts that have almost needed to be seen by vet because of her. She, however, has never had any broken skin created by the dog. Never. The dog is taught bark, bite, release. Nothing more.

Here is a video of non dog broke goats




 How that dog is reacting is very similar to my own. Mostly barks, and sometimes goes in for a quick bite. As soon as the goat moves from the pressure dog moves on. Exactly like mine. At one point they have a conversation about being too aggressive which the recommendation is to cull from the herd. That is where I am at already, was just hoping maybe someone else out there knew some magic trick I didn't know.

While I like the goat, at the end of the day she is livestock. If a horse bit, kicked, or challenged me they would be having a come to jesus moment. If a cow is super aggressive a lot of people use cattle prods. If a goat or a sheep is adult/kid aggressive they are usually sent to freezer camp. To me she is no different. There is no need for an animal to go after something that is usually completely ignoring her and often a good distance away. I can understand why she does it, but I don't need anything hurt. Dogs aren't the only thing she acts like this towards either, it is just who she acts the worse towards.

Unfortunately, I have no way to 100% separate them at the time. The dog helps every morning/evening I fill the feeder. Without him I end up with a horn in the bum, leg, or on the ground, when I am mobbed if all the goats are in. He makes what would probably be a 30 minute job take 5 minutes. I will separate them if I have too, just makes things a lot harder than they need to be.

And sorry If I do sound a little defensive or rude. I have no one in my life right now except for my dog. I cannot have children and maybe just some maternal instinct. Her going after and ramming him, to me is like a goat going after and ramming a kid. I don't treat him like a little baby or child, but I do still feel like he is the most important thing in my life right now. I also do want to keep this goat around until she kids and was hoping maybe someone knew something on how I can try. Without adding another 40 minutes to my day moving one goat around anyway. I do really appreciate all the advice that was given though!


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

MellonFriend said:


> I think that Sandy is using the dog as a herding dog, not as and LGD. Right @SandyNubians?


Correct. He lives inside with me. Only started training when he was around 13mo to herd. Prior to that my plan was for everyone to co exist. The dog was corrected and never allowed to play or mouth the goats. This does has always been a problem and gone after him since 4 months. He would try and play with her which he was corrected, but never ever put his mouth on her until he was taught to do that by our trainer.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Then you may want to consider selling her pregnant. Get her out now. With German Shepherds, the aggression can really escalate as they get older. You really don't want to encourage it with a doe you don't even care about keeping. Not worth keeping her for the kids. Get her gone like yesterday.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

And here is another video(though with cows) This is what he was taught because my goats were not dog broke. The trainer brought her own dogs and did this first and then my dog was used to finish the process. All broke fine except for this one doe. Also to kinda show what his bites are like. He isn't crazy biting, just bite let go. Doing what he was told. He did train a bit for Shutzhund and Obedience has been a big thing I've done with him. So I am not very worried about the dog getting aggressive. Again, only one he ever has to bite is this one doe. The more she goes after him, the more he got weary of her and now it is like a "I'll get you befor you get me" kinda thing. 





I Did find one with goats, though this is much more aggressive than what mine does. He does more like with the one with the Cows. But just showing the kind of method he was trained in since I do raise a lot of bottle kids who would end up around the dog/not dog broke.










I do like this doe. If I didn't already have 2 nice does out of her she would have been gone though. Just want to get another doe hopefully that is more % than her doelings from last year.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> The dog isn't a LGD and should not be with the goats.
> 
> Biting the goats is not a good thing. Herding dogs must be supervised at all times around goats or not be around them at all.
> 
> ...


Oh I know! I've had both(well my sister did, but they lived with me) Big difference and definitely not what I wanted. He lives in the house with me. Never outside alone.

Before I even got this dog my biggest concern was him hurting/biting them. But I also wanted the help to herd as I sometimes had breakout and would spend as long as 2 hours trying to get everyone back to the house and out of the fields. I even made a thread(on a different forum) about it before I got him. They told me to chose herding, or coexisting. He couldn't herd and also be able to just roam the pastures with everyone while I do chores at the same time. So I chose the latter.

The doe was the one who started to go after him first. She very rarley actually hit him though. Just bluffed or swung her head in his direction. That started when dog was 4mo. When he was younger he got corrected for playing with the kids and was taught to ignore. When he was 4mo to 13mo and the doe would attempt butt him he would either do the bad thing(go in a play bow and run back and forth but never bite her, that was a NO) or if he did get hit, he would run to me. My dog never physically engaged with her until the trainer taught him to do it. That was at 14mo and continued to now. That is when the doe started to always get him instead of bluffing. It only got worse as the dog got/gets more injured and frustrated. I never allow him to actually bite-bite, just quick nips, and he has done enough obedience that I can call him off even if he is getting beat up and get him into a heel while we go through. That just sometimes ends up with me getting headbutted in the legs so I am more cautious doing that now.

As for the ECollar, it does sound super harsh and I thought so too. It was recommended by another (goat) breeder who had a goat that attacked her smaller breed dogs. It was only on lvl50 Which I could use on my hand. I can say from experience, an electric fence is a whole lot worse. Just was mainly for a surpise factor and stopping her before she gets close enough to the dog to hit him. I used it no more than 5 times max before she got the idea. I would rather have uncomfortable shocks 5 times than have to kick her to try and get her to stop, or end up having my dog get even more frustrated/scared of her and bite hard enough to break skin. That said, it didn't last so I will not be using it anymore.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Cattle and heard dogs, cattle have tougher hides than goats.
I had a border collie when I told him to get ahold he did. He nipped the nose, heals and actually swung on the cows tail to get her to move. 
With goats, I never told the border collie to get ahold. 
They would be really ripped up goats if I told the dog to get ahold. 
When you have dominant does who stand off with the dog makes things complicated. 

I have used my border collies on the goats to bring them in but didn’t do it often with them.

Goats also stress way to east causing health issues with worms and cocci etc.

Dominant does, protectors of the herd sort to speak or scared dominant goats, take a stand and fight back and are trying to ward off danger as they see it, just like the doe in the video. 

Goats to me, can be more stubborn and shouldn’t be dog herded unless you do not have a dominant goat and they flow easy to where you want them to go without to much stress.

Your doe is just the way she is because she doesn’t like the dog it is too intimidating to her. Some does are that way.


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

Dogs herding goats looks so unnatural


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> Cattle and heard dogs, cattle have tougher hides than goats.
> I had a border collie when I told him to get ahold he did. He nipped the nose, heals and actually swung on the cows tail to get her to move.
> With goats, I never told the border collie to get ahold.
> They would be really ripped up goats if I told the dog to get ahold.
> ...


Yeah, I do understand that. He has a very gentle bite(Which the trainer actually saw as a flaw!) Because of confusion of him getting corrected as a young dog whenever he tried to play with/bite the kids, then getting told at almost 14mo thats what he needs to do. He's never broken skin on her, it is never a hard bite. She is the only goat he has ever touched with his mouth in the last 9 weeks(he only had his first sessions 15 weeks ago) and that was corrected as it was not necessary. The trainer taught him "the nip" because I have a lot of bottle kids. Bottle kids raised around people will be around dogs and will probably need pressure in order to break them. That will usually only be bark and air snap, but young rowdy bucks could need more.

The rest of the herd is great though. They flow very naturally. No one is stressed or over-excited. I had a break out a few weeks ago and he(dog) was getting them in. Almost the entire time all of the goats were snatching bites of leaves on the way back and would turn back around and walk right past him. They often follow him around in the morning because him moving them out of the barn = new hay and/or grain. He can go under, over, and right through them and they won't bat an eye until he is given the command to start moving them and he barks.

He is my partner and a huge help during the breakouts that usually take upwards of 2 hours to get everyone out of the fields and back to the pasture.

I do understand the doe though. Especially because she was raised freerange in the "wild". So she is doing what she knows how. I posted here because the recommendation from a FB herding group was freezer camp/dog food:shrug:. I was hoping maybe, just maybe there would be some tactic I didn't know that would work. Seems I got my answer of just rehoming her to a dog free herd come march. I will do my best to try and keep them separate until then for both their sake.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

SandyNubians said:


> Edited. I got my answer! I will just do my best to separate them until the doe kids in march. She will then be sold.
> 
> We all have different ways of doing things. My dog is my partner and is higher up on the "pecking order"
> 1. Me, Family, Children
> ...


Glad you figured things out. I once had a "mean" doe named Lilly who would attack other goats and our livestock guardian dog for no reason. She would do it purely for fun. Usually I'd see her sneak up and attack the dog from the rear when it was laying down minding its own business. She would pull out a chunk of the dog's fur and then strut around with this big ball of fluff in her mouth like it was a trophy, and her tail would be curled all the way over her back with pride like a buck in rut. Lilly was also faster than the dog so if the dog saw her coming and tried to run away, Lilly would overtake the dog and trample her before taking the "scalp". At my house, goats are my babies and my dogs are the livestock so I figured the dog could just look out for herself, but Lilly didn't just aim her aggression at the dog. She also turned it on other goats and would slam them from 30 feet away with no provocation whatsoever. Eventually she went to freezer camp, but not before we got our best baby ever from her--our packgoat Finn. So at least Lilly produced something great before she moved on!

Best of luck to you!


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