# Questions about Cl & hoof



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Okay, so this is questions stemming from my post over on the Newbie thread <Please Help post>. I was going to ask this there, but thought I'd just ask my new questions here since this is the vet section, and maybe someone else new to goats might be looking for the info too.

We're not sure what is going on with Molly, a goat I bought last Tues at an auction. Yes, I learned my lesson - don't buy fron an auction. But I don't regret buying her so long as we can get her happy and healthy! I knew I'd have things to contend with but WHEW!

My husband popped an abscess in her left front foot this morning, she's walking very sorely, and tomorrow morning we will start soaking it and treating it with itchamal. 
I checked her feet this evening, and it's still open and looks good. But her back foot looks bad and she is walking sore on it now! UGH! I can't give any info on it until we inspect it closer tomorrow morning when he gets home from work but it looks like the outter part of the hoof on the bottom has caved in, and is either poking her foot, or is just plain sore - won't know more details until tomorrow.

CL questions....

Tossing in the idea should 'could' have this, but not sure.

She has several bumps on her neck. Some are getting a little bigger, and others feel like they've scabbed/hard with nothing inside of them. The other ones are not real hard, and you can tell they probably have something in them. 
Here are a couple of pictures - the top little one is more or less dried up and like a scab. The others seem to have gotten a little bigger. She DOES scratch these with her back foot. Also, she has some on the other side as well, just a couple.


















This one started to come up yesterday - I don't remember it being there before then when I was doing a rub down of her. It looks like she's been scratching it too. 









Everything I've read about CL indicates that there is usually only one abscess, and it's at the lymph nodes. I am just so worried that she has CL.

There IS a lump way under the skin down on the front side of her chest sort of between the chest/shoulder but not on the shoulder. I wasn't able to get a pic of the exact area, and it was not sticking out. You had to rub her down and feel for it. Looking at pics of goats/sheep with CL in that area don't look to be in the same location she has this lump. But with all the others, I am worried about this one too...<UGH!!!!>.

If she 'does' have CL, I know it's not the end of the world. But I don't want anyone else getting it.

Is it true that the only time a CL goat is contageous is when the abscess bursts? Can a doe be bred and have kids who would be free of CL or would they have it too? We bought her with the hopes we could get her healthy and breed her. If she can't have kids, we'd have to find her another home. Unfortunately with her hooves, and her age, I have little hope for that.

With the problems she has with her feet, could her scratching with her back feet and her horns be partially to blame? I can see where she has started to pull some hair out from scratching. But there is no natural hairloss on any of the bumps, again, just from her scratching. She scratched hair off of a healed lump on the other side of her neck.

Anyone ever deal with anything like this before? It's going to be real fun just getting her feet back in shape!

I know there are sooo many possabilities..... Could it be from her hoof problems? Could it be from other goats picking on her? Our other two does were VERY hard on her, ramming her with their horns, but she has no other lumps on her body.... When they come near her even with no threat of bothering her she runs away from them.

Thanks for any help!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues*

there is a good chance she does have CL which is why she was at the auction - that would be my bet

your best option is to get a sample of the gunk from the abscess and send it to a lab that can do CL testing. If you cant get the gunk then at least drawl blood on her and have a blood test done for CL, its not as accurate but since she is showing signs of an outbreak then the antibodies they test for should be there and easy to detect.

I am glad you are trying to help her --- jsut be careful. CL can be transmitted to humans, horses, cows, sheep etc


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues*

Those follow the lymphatic system - i would get her away from your other goats immediately and send the insides of the abcess to the lab for analysis.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues*

Thanks. I guess my next question would be... if she does have CL, my husband won't keep her at all for risk of CL to everyone. Is the meat safe? His uncle would be interested in her. I hate for that to be the close to this story - but no more risks on this end. We'd give her a few days, and see what happens.. but just in case. I feel so awful for her


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues*

No, IMO the meat is not safe at all for human consumption.

I sure hope this isn't CL, but I agree, it does sound like a big possibility. I would get her away from the other goats until you can get the tests done and the results back.

The abscess on her hoof sounds like hoof rot gone crazy.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

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In the boer market of mass meat production there is an acceptable amount of abcess that is allowed and still be consumable.

Would I cull and butcher for meat - yep. Just make sure and check the meat - but the abcesses are not attached to the meat or "in the meat" - cook thuroughly and enjoy! But that is me and what I have read about it.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues*

Thanks both of you! My husband's uncle is meat-smart, has done a lot of butchering, and so my husband is going to call him tomorrow. His uncle cooks and sells to people in his neighborhood <HUGE Hispanic community>, so if the meat is safe, he may do the butchering, -- cook and sell and give us a small percentage. Honestly, I don't care what I lost on her. I am just so sick about this and have learned my lesson. 
When I bought her I didn't notice any lumps on her, otherwise I know I wouldn't have bought her. She seemed fine. Again, lesson learned. 
I just feel so bad for her, she was starting to come around - let me pet on her earlier without having to hold her and keep her from running away.

And our new little buck we bought yesterday stays near her and she watches over him. In fact, they are sleeping near each other tonight.

I told my husband whatever must be done, will have to be done soon. We'll keep an eye on the lumps, but I just can't take any chances - especialy since we have kids.

This just stinks. 100%.... I was really hoping she was going to work out.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues*

Be very careful because of opening that abcess on her hoof - any of that prudulent matter carries the CL - and if it touches a mucos membrane or an open wound on ANY animal ANY where - they will pick it up!! You REALLY need to seperate her or you are playing with fire if it truly is CL>


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues*

Thanks, I am planning on seperating her first thing in the morning. My husband said the cause of the abscess was a piece of wood lodged in her foot.

Any ideas on how I could get rid of her humanely? I've NEVER ever dealt with this before. I am afraid if my husband offs her, and we buried her, that something would dig her up. Even if we wrapped her up firmly, and put rocks over her grave....

I absolutely can not sleep tonight...just a mess... poor girl, poor healthy girls...ugh..


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues*

How sad....I am so sorry :hug: your having to deal with this.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues*



cdtrum said:


> How sad....I am so sorry :hug: your having to deal with this.


Thanks. I've had about 3 hours of sleep thanks to the worry, migrane UGH! I have a couple of places I am going to call, including the auction where I bought her and the local University. Surely someone can tell me what I can do with her. I doubt anyone would want her as a pet


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues*

So.... I called a local vet that will euthanize her if I bring her in for a small fee, and I found a place I can take her body.

BUT.... I went out to do one final exam of her to make a final decision. And I am stumped. She has at least 2 lumps on her neck that are not hard as in like a healing scab? and the one on her jaw is no bigger and feels more like a scab - I don't feel anything liquidy in it at all. I did a thorough rub on her chest area and don't feel anything now? WTH? 
She has scratched the hair off of the small ones on her neck, but they are scabby except for the couple that are still bigger w/something in them.

Doesn't CL get big and burst with a cheesy puss discharge?

Maybe I am not dealing with CL?

I'm still trying to shed some hope here. She does not appear to get anymore and doesn't really look like she is getting worse. No worse than the pics I posted last night.


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## Idahodreamer (Sep 19, 2009)

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What if it's just a allergic reaction, like hives? or don't goats get those? LOL. 
I personally think CL would be oozing a little bit . . . . this is based from what i've read
that is . . .


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

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your best option is to get her blood tested for CL -- if you send off teh blood today you will have answers by friday if sent to WADDL


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

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There is a local diagnostics lab that will do it - the woman was wonderful on the phone and told me this may not be CL at all <I'm lingering on hope here!>. She said $35 is the most they charge.

Where can I get a syringe/needle from?

Again I appreciate everyone's help, I'd love to save her and I am going crazy over here LOL


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

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you can check yoru TSC they should carry the syringes and needles. Ask the lab if they need teh blood in a vaccutainer because if so you need to get one from your vet


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

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I agree with Stacey. You don't know if it's CL. There are many other abcess bugs...or hives or bug bites. If you were going to take her to the vet to put her down, just take her in and have them pull blood if you can't at home. If it's CL then you shoot her in the back of the head (have your uncle do it if he is used to doing meat he'll know how). And eat the meat. Don't take her to the vet to euthanize her and then eat the meat. They usually put down with chemicals.
Those disappearing lumps seem to me like bug bites/hives gone bad. But then I've never dealt with CL. What I've read is CL doesn't just disappear though.


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

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Well you and Stacey have been getting it taken care of whilst I was posting above! LOL I'm glad you're testing!


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

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I just have to say I wouldn't take the risk of exposing myself and others to a zoonotic disease. I wouldn't sell her meat at all if you do butcher her.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

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Thanks so much everyone. I have no one else to talk to about this, and I appreciate being able to come here with my worries, and get info.

First, I want to say if I have to euthanize, I would dispose of her body. I was told the safest way to do it was take it to a Landfill nearby and they can take care of it for me. I hate to think about doing that to any animal, but safety rules here.

I found out they don't want a blood test, they want a test of the stuff inside the lump. I have had a hard time trying to find a vet in our county that does testing on goats <everyone is either dog/cat or horse!>. 
So I called the lady back at the center and she gave me the number to someone who has experience testing goats. She just called me back, and told me it doesn't sound like CL, but she said she could look at the goat and could tell me right away if it was or not. So, I just emailed her pictures and we'll see what she has to say. I might need better pictures but at least it'll give her an idea of what I am dealing with.

There is no sign of anything bursting, no sign of anything coming out - and those scabs could very well be from a past breakout. But I remember feeling more lumps and now I am feeling more scabs. It's hard to explain, but not like the kind of scabs where something has burst, but more or less like something that just dried up in the skin? Does that make sense?

Anyway, I am still alarmed, but I am not as terrified as I was. I've had a migrain since yesterday evening, and think I might lay down for about an hour and try to relax a bit. My husband will be up soon, and we'll take it from there. Unfortunately it will probably come down to him wanting to let his uncle look at her, and well....

I will update when I find out more. We might also put her on the other side of the creek and see if she'll stay over there until we figure out what we can do. We are DEFINITELY getting another area fenced in ASAP - we were just waiting until after we got our shed finished. We were hoping she would be okay so we could pen her with the buckling away from the other does especially when they get ready to kid.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

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Which lab is local to you? There is one lab that has NOT been reliable at all ....... I will now go look at your other questions


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Ok - one thing I want to say - You can NOT tell CL by "looking". You can have suspicions - but there is no way!

If the cysts are "coming and going" and not staying - it does sound like possibly an allergice reaction. Typically the CL abcesses will start as a small lump that feels fluid filled. It will then grow - becoming harder and the hair on the lump will fall out. If left long enough, the prudulent matter inside the lump solidifies, dries out, and ruptures.

IF this was my goat - with what you are saying - I would seperate her immediately, pull blood on her, try to get a sample of the insides of one of the cysts and send to a UNIVERSITY lab - such as WADDL.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

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Thanks! I am going to talk with my husband when he wakes up in about a half hour <he works nights>, and see what he wants to do. The vet I spoke with emailed me back and said that the spot on her jaw area could be a healed abscess, and that the ones on her neck could definitely be caused by CL. I didn't notice those lumps when I bought her, but they could have been there since we didn't handle her the first two days we had her - she wouldn't come near us and couldn't get her at feeding time. 
She said to seperate her and keep an eye on her for the next couple of days and see if it progresses. Unfortunately, I think my husband has his mind made up about his uncle - who does know about goats, meat, etc. He would do it humanely.

The livestock disease diagnostic center is at UK <University of Kentucky>. They are an AWESOME University. She said the most they charge on any kind of livestock that is part of human consumption is $35, and thats if you send one sample or 10 samples, flat fee of $35 as the'most' they would charge. They are local and I can take samples to drop off, however, I can't do the sample myself of the abscess contents because I don't have the proper equipment - slides. She said blood samples are just not reliable when it comes to testing for CL. She said it was much better to do the sample slide instead.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

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The problem with CL is it can live "dormant" for quite sometime or life, until there is a stressful change - auction, pregnancy, a move


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

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You can get the needles and syringes from any farm store but the red top vaccutainer(sp) you will need to get from a vet or Stacey. The lab should have the slides. Never heard of a lab that requires you to prep the slides before doing the test.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

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yah - me neither - I would just go through WADDL - 9 bucks for the blood test and I think like 20 for the prud matter ... 10 case fee and 6.00 priority shipping.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

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Yeah that's what I thought too. She said it's a lot easier to test CL with an infected animal by testing the contents of the abscess.

Good news is, the abscesses don't look any worse and actually just from looking at them - they look better. She is seperated from the others, but is temporarily penned next to the big pen. She seems very happy there in her own little space, very content especially since there is lots of grass, and nobody pushing her around. Plus she can see the others.

My husband has decided we most likely will not keep her/ He took another look at her feet and said that her front foot is in really bad shape and it would take a long time for her to heal and be comfortable walking - if ever  It looks tender but the stick that was lodged down in there was deep in her hoof, and then the fact her back foot needed to be trimmed and the end of the sides caving in because of it.

He's going to call his uncle tonight and talk to him about it. His uncle has butchered many different animals, cooks different kind of animals, etc. He's an amazing cook <BTW, they are from Mexico - and goats are a way of life>. I wish there was an alternative, but if it ised the darned abcesses it's her feet! We'll just keep an eye on her and see how she does. My husband thinks the bumps could be stress related from the move -auction and then being bullied by our girls. AND when I brought her home she got away from me when I was unloading her and liked to have never caught her, took 30 minutes!

Thank You all for all your help. I usually don't get all worked up like this, but it has just been so scary. I have had lots of animals in my life other than goats - when I was young my dad used to buy animals at auction all the time and we never had a problem, so that's why I didn't think of the fact that in the goat world at auction generally means someone is culling - for a reason other than just to get rid of extra stock. I definitely learned my lesson!

The only time I'll ever be at an auction is if we are selling goats for meat. And I could never ever see myself trying to sell off my problems to other people. If it gets to the point the goat can't be helped, then I'd either put them down, or since these are meat goats - let my husband do his thing since the reason we got into goats was to raise for meat & 4H.

I just feel sooo very sad.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

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awe Im sorry you are going through this -- we all want to hear a happy ending but it doesnt seem likely huh? :hug:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

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:hug: I am so sorry you are going through this. It is a shame that auction houses that once were used to bring money to breeders selling for meat have turned into a place that is used to "get rid" of unhealthy animals..the practice gives those trying to make an honest living a bad rap.
Good for you for trying to help her and a big :hug: for doing the right thing by not making her someone elses "problem".


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

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Thanks so much. I do appreciate it, can't even put into words how much I do!
She seems really comfortable in the pen we made for her, and it's big with lots fo grass. The only time she wanted out was when I went out to feed, she ate hers up and wanted through the fence to get the bucklings food LOL Poor little guy! 
We've decided instead of over reacting, we'll just see what happens. My husband did bring home some of that stuff for soaking their hooves in that someone had recommended --- Thrush - something. Sorry I am tired can't remember the name of it. I've not used this particular product, but I've soaked many feet thanks to abscesses and fence nails! <horses I used to work with>. 
So we'll see what we can do tomorrow and check the abscesses.

Our other two does are sleeping near her so she isn't alone.

I know my husband is upset that I bought her, but at least she's getting a chance. She's getting something she probably didn't get before - kindness and consideration.


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

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Kudos to you for trying to help her :applaud: ! Your a winner in my book!

I wish the best for you and her :hug: !!!!


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

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I have a tendency to freak too so I know what you mean. It's good to just slow down a minute and see what happens. Good deal. One way or the other you are doing the best you can for her and I find that wonderful.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

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Thanks so much  She doesn't have a good shelter from the rain, so I put some pallets on end between our side porch and shed <the only way she can get out of our back yard>, and she is loose in our back yard now instead of the little pen my husband made for her. This is better so she can get out of the sun, and like last night it rained so she can go up under the porch. She's laying over in the shade next to the fence munching on weeds that are coming up. It doesn't seem to bother her at all having her own space.

I havent' gone out yet to check on the lumps this morning, but will. I am just getting a late start this morning. But everyone is content and happy <I can see the entire pen/backyard from the windows.

We're going to soak her foot in Thrush Buster, and we dont' have a hoof trimmer yet, so my husband will do what he can to trim that back foot down and see what we are dealing with. 
I was told even if it IS CL on her neck that if we watch it closely, and if it gets close to bursting, we can carefully clean it out and disinfect the area so that it doesn't get a chance to spread.

Still lingering on hope here


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## kubileya (Apr 8, 2010)

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I'm a goat newbie, so I may be off-base here, but I've dealt with plenty of other livestock...

Are you sure it's not mites/mange? There are burrowing mites that will show as bumps in the skin at first- new ones kinda squishy, old ones scabbed up. You say she's scratching them and has scratched the hair off of the older ones, so it makes me think it could be parasites. I'd dose her up w/ Ivomec pour-on.

I hope things work out in the end :hug:


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Hoosiershadow check out formalin for CL. I read a whole bunch about that at OnionCreekRanch's site. (A big meat goat site)

Believe it or not we found the best hoof trimmers were those cheapo orange handled scissors. The smallest ones work best.

Let me see if I can find that Onion Creek CL formalin article for you.


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Found it! Suzanne Gasparotto is a very common sense lady.
She's in Texas and runs Onion Creek Ranch and I think she's the gal who created the tenneseemeatgoat breed. They are some chunky monkey goats!

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/CLFormalin.html

Caseous Lymphadenitis is a contagious bacterial infection that appears at lymph gland sites as abscesses. Not all abscesses are CL, but those appearing at typical CL sites (often under the ear, but not always) should be considered suspect and investigated. Because the bacteria Corynebacterium Pseudotuberculosis is resistant to all antibiotics, whether systemically injected into the goat or directly placed into the abscess, Caseous Lymphadenitis (CL) should be considered neither curable nor completely preventable at this time. This article offers an effective alternative method for managing and controlling it.

Caseous Lymphadenitis is a fact of life in meat-goat herds. Like a car wreck, if you drive, your turn will come. If you buy and sell goats or have any significant number of them, you are going to encounter CL. Transmission vectors (ways to spred the disease) run the gamut from insects and animals to tires, clothing and the soles of footwear of people who enter your property. Prepare yourself in advance on how to manage and control CL. Unlike Caprine Arthritic Encephalitis (CAE) and Johnes Disease, CL does not damage the health of the goat. CL is primarily a management and nuisance issue.

The CL vaccine made for sheep has not been approved for goats. The manufacturer, Colorado Serum, recommends against its usage with goats for several reasons, including painful injection-site reactions and also because no studies have been done that conclusively prove its effectiveness against CL. Goat producers who choose to use this sheep vaccine on their goats do so at their own risk. Colorado Serum currently has under development a vaccine to prevent CL in goats and hopes to have it available for producers to purchase and use sometime in 2008. The time it taking to get this new product to market is significantly affected by federal government regulatory requirements and the speed with which they process the documentation provided by Colorado Serum.

The basic premise behind vaccines is the introduction of a small amount of the illness-causing bacteria into the animal's body in order to stimulate its immune system to develop antibodies against it. If a goat already has the CL organism in its body, usage of the vaccine can activate the bacteria to form an abscess, usually at the injection site. Since laboratory tests for Caseous Lymphadenitis are far from perfect and are affected by the maturity of the goat's immune system (especially in animals under six to eight months of age), the producer cannot be sure that the goat has not already been exposed to the CL bacteria. When the CL vaccine for goats becomes available, vaccinate all your goats and deal with any abscesses if they arise.

Many people who have Caseous Lymphadenitis in their herds refuse to acknowledge its existence because of the stigma currently associated with having it in your herd. I accept some responsibility for the prevalence of this attitude, because I was originally fearful of this disease and urged culling. However, by taking this approach, we goat producers are hurting ourselves. We need a vaccine to prevent this disease in goats. I am proud that in some small part my efforts to convince the folks at Colorado Serum to produce a CL vaccine for goats is seeing results. This company that previously viewed a CL vaccine for goats as unprofitable has now decided that there is merit and potential profit in developing and marketing the vaccine.

I have done lots of research on CL as it affects goats. When I first began writing about CL, my opinion was to destroy any goat infected with it. Since then I've had many hours of discussions with goat producers, serum manufacturers, lab technicians, veterinarians, and others involved in the meat-goat industry. I've learned that there is an effective method available for handling Caseous Lymphadenitis that permits producers to keep (and not have to cull) valuable breeding animals.

For years on ChevonTalk, the Internet meat-goat education and discussion group that I own on Yahoogroups, Dr. Rosemarie Szostak has recounted how she gained control over Caseous Lymphadenitis in her herd. Dr. Szostak, who holds a PhD in chemistry and is also a goat owner, injected Formalin into the abscesses. Formalin, classified as a disinfectant, is a 10% buffered solution of formaldehyde. I have concluded that my original rejection of this course of treatment was wrong. While Formalin usage will not cure CL (nothing will, at present), it does provide an effective management and control alternative.

I used to recommend confining the infected goat, lancing the abscess, draining the exudate (pus), and medicating the site. The problem is that if this procedure is not done at precisely the right time and under the right conditions, the situation deteriorates. If the abscess is lanced too soon, it festers and gets worse. Very little if any pus and (sometimes) lots of fluid is present, since the abscess has not matured to the stage at which the pus is soft enough to be squeezed out. If the cutting is done too late, the risk is that the knot may rupture on its own -- contaminating the other goats and their environment. Either way, this infectious bacteria has a great chance of finding a home on your property.

The right time to open and clean out an abscess is when the hair is just beginning to come off and the knot is becoming soft. The problem is that this seems to occur in differing timeframes in individual goats. (I suspect that this is related to the efficiency of the individual goat‚s immune system as well as the amount of CL bacteria present in its body.) Some CL abscesses seem to appear almost overnight (they really don't -- producers just haven't been observant enough), while other goats have knots appear very slowly and literally take weeks or months to develop from undefined mass into a roundish abscess. Some abscesses encapsulate into several knots, while others become a single mass. Pregnant does are a special problem, because the producer obviously doesn't want newborn kids exposed to the CL bacteria. The producer who owns many goats has a huge problem trying to isolate every infected goat, while watching and waiting for that 'right time' to clean out the abscess.

Note: This writer is not a vet and the usage of Formalin is not approved for this specific purpose. Producers may find difficulty in locating and purchasing this product. (You may contact me for sources.) Like so much of what we producers have to use with goats, this is an off-label/extra-label usage (that does not necessarily mean it is illegal, by the way), so no withdrawal time information is available. Remember, however, that CL abscesses encapsulate; they create a thick wall around the exudate (pus), isolating the infected material from the rest of the goat's body. This is why systemic injections of antibiotics are unsuccessful. The medication cannot get through those thick walls. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that Formalin would be able to migrate to any other part of the goat's body. (Because of the unique nature of this bacteria, direct injection of antibiotics into the abscess doesn‚t work either.) When the goat is slaughtered and the hide is removed, subcutaneous (under-the-skin) abscesses peel off with the hide. Internal organs that are susceptible to abscesses, such as udders and lungs, go into the offals (trash) bucket as parts of the goat that are not eaten. Such abscesses are very visible in the organs of slaughtered goats, making them easy to recognize and discard.

Step-by-Step: How to Use Formalin

Supplies needed: 3cc Luer-lock syringes, 25 gauge needles, disposable gloves, paper towels, protective eye wear, small plastic Wal-Mart type bags, 7% iodine or equivalent in a squeeze bottle with an applicator tip, #10 disposable scalpels, 18 gauge needles, container into which broken and bent needles can be placed, bleach, bottle of 10% buffered Formalin, small-animal portable electric clippers or hand-operated hair-cutting scissors, and a strong person to hold the goat very still.

The first step is to determine if the abscess is really CL. There are many types of abscesses. If you are in doubt about the abscess, inject an 18 gauge needle into the knot. Try to pull out some of the pus. If you cannot aspirate pus from the abscess and it is located at a lymph gland site, it is probably a CL abscess.

Feel the knot. If you can move the skin over it, the abscess is NOT ready for Formalin injection (or lancing). If you can get your fingers almost completely around the abscess and pull it away from the body, this means that the abscess is now adhered to the underside of the hide and almost always is soft enough to inject Formalin. (If the pus inside the abscess is still hard, Formalin cannot mix with it and kill the bacteria.) If you wait until the hair is completely off the abscess, the skin will be drawn too tight and thin and injecting Formalin will probably cause it to rupture. Formalin injection is most successful when the knot is soft, still has hair on it, and can be pulled away from the body by wrapping your fingers around it as described above.

Using a 3 cc Luer-lock syringe (to prevent the needle from blowing off the syringe if the knot is not soft enough) and a 25-gauge needle (to produce as small a hole as possible to prevent Formalin backflow), have one or two people hold the goat still. Placing the goat on its side usually allows greater control over the animal‚s movements. Think of the abscess as a clock face and inject parallel to the body into the abscess at the 12 o‚clock position (when the goat is on its feet) so that when the goat stands up, the Formalin is less likely to run out. Be positive that the needle is in the abscess and NOT in the goat‚s body. Be aware of major artery and vein locations in order to avoid them ˆ particularly the jugular vein in the goat‚s neck. While slowly pushing the syringe‚s plunger, move the needle inside the abscess in a windshield wiper motion to better distributed Formalin throughout the soft pus.

Start with a 3 cc syringe filled with Formalin and fill the abscess until it is firm but not tight. Huge abscesses the size of an orange or larger may require as much as 9 cc‚s of Formalin at first injection. I would not recommend using more than 9 cc‚s of Formalin per application. Overfilling the abscess can result in swelling around the abscess and short-term discomfort to the goat. Hold a paper towel over the injection site when the needle is removed to prevent Formalin from flowing back out, much like a lab technician does when drawing blood. Some goats appear to feel the flow of Formalin, possibly in the form of coldness or pressure. I‚ve seen some goats lick as if they taste it when Formalin is injected in an abscess under the ear, but I believe that they are reacting to the pressure of the abscess‚ being filled rather than tasting it. It is, after all, encapsulated inside the abscess. If this behavior occurs, it is a very short-term reaction. Mostly the goat doesn‚t like being held. Confinement of the goat in your isolation pen is recommended until you are positive that you have the abscess sufficiently filled with Formalin.

Sometimes abscesses occur within abscesses. Check the goat‚s abscesses for several days after initial injection of Formalin, feeling for soft spots. It will always feel slightly soft around the perimeter of the abscess where it meets the goat‚s body, as it should; you don‚t want risk putting Formalin in the goat‚s body. Inject more Formalin into any remaining soft spots. The goal is to achieve a hard (embalmed) knot. Formalin combines with and „hardens‰ the pus quickly. Once the abscess feels hard all over, leave it alone. Over a period of weeks, it will shrink as a hard black/grayish thick scab develops. Eventually the scab will loosen around the perimeter‚s edges and either fall off or need to be gently pulled off. The hardened abscess that comes off will have dry pus inside that has been disinfected by the Formalin; dispose of it properly. Fresh pink skin will appear inside a slightly-recessed hole. Flush with 7% iodine or equivalent and let it heal. If the first healing is lumpy and uneven, pull it off and let it re-heal in a smoother fashion so it will hair over and the scar will not be visible. If done correctly, no visible evidence of a CL abscess will exist.

Chest abscesses seem to be the hardest to control with Formalin, since the chest wall allows space for huge knots to develop. In such instances, the producer must use several cc's of Formalin over a period of multiple days to make sure that the abscess is fully filled with Formalin. Sometimes these large abscesses clear up faster and better if they are lanced. If, when injecting Formalin into any CL abscess, the knot bursts because the skin is already too thin, cleanly lance it with a #10 disposable scalpel, squeeze out all the pus, and flush with 7% iodine or equivalent. Isolation of the animal after any lancing procedure is essential. CL pus is whitish/grayish in color and thick (the consistency of toothpaste). It has no odor.

If you get Formalin on your skin or in your eyes or mucous membranes, flush thoroughly with clean tap water. While applying Formalin to the hoof of a goat with hoof rot, I have gotten Formalin in my eye (under my contact lens) and it didn‚t sting or affect my eyesight. Formalin is odorless, colorless, and the consistency of water.

The plus side of using Formalin to manage CL abscesses is no exposure of the bacteria to either the environment or other goats, no long-term isolation of the treated animals, and less stress on the producer. The negatives include off-label usage and the possible objection of some authorities to this application.

There are articles on my website's Articles page on CL and other types of abscesses, as well as a diagram of lymph gland sites in the goat's body.

Each producer must do his own due diligence and decide which course of action to follow when dealing with Caseous Lymphadenitis. It is this writer's opinion that unless goat breeders want to continue destroying good animals and incurring the financial losses that such decisions bring, then we all had better learn how to manage and control Caseous Lymphadenitis when it appears in our herds. When the Colorado Serum vaccine for CL in goats comes on the market, we should all immediately purchase it and use it to protect our animals and indicate our appreciation to this company for going out on a financial limb to develop it. Colorado Serum makes more goat medications than any other manufacturer.


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/artic ... haden.html Here's another article by Suzanne about what she's doing with CL on her ranch.

I'd also look into what kubileya said..maybe mite bites and a overreaction (by the goats histamines!) to them. Have you done the ivermectin yet? A shot of ivermectin for external parasties might be very helpful.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Thanks so much for the info! I am not sure we would use formalin though? But I'd mention it to my husband when he gets up, he's the one who would give it as I'd be too worried I'd hit a nerve! He vaccinates horses for different illnesses all the time, so he's familiar with how to use needles.
I observed from a distance and the large lump doesn't appear to be any bigger, but I won't know until I do a rub over in just a little while. 
I wonder if you can breed a goat with CL, or would it be too risky for the kids to get it? The sad thing is, we won't keep her at all if we can't use her for breeding when she is over her hoof issues. This is still assuming that it's CL - if it's not then I know we can breed her when her feet are better. Of course then the issue is - can we get her feet back in shape. I think we can or at least we should try and give her some time.

She's still very content with having run in our back yard. She likes to lay under our back deck, and it's a good shelter for her especially with on and off rain chances, and it's really windy out today.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Just thought I'd post that there aren't any big changes. The lumps are about the same as yesterday. The others are scabbing and she is pulling the hair out as I am sure they itch from healing. The one on her jaw doesn't seem to be any different either. 
My husband was able to trim her back foot with a tool he has, and he cleaned her front foot out and put thrush buster down inside the abscess. She does appear to be getting around a little better, but she is quite lame.
When she was on the porch I got a good look at how she is walking - on her left side front & back she walks on the tips of her feet. I'm pretty sure her front foot is deformed - she has no choice but to walk like that. It's as if she is walking on her tippy toes. So this is what I am really concerned about now. I didn't get to see the back foot when my husband trimmed, but he said it looked fine. So I guess we'll just have to see what happens.

She fancies our back deck now..I've run her off of it 3x now LOL I don't care that she gets up there, but I don't want her soiling on it if you get my meaning... So hopefully the 'blockade' will work this time. She gets up there and lays down right next to the back door.


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Have you tried some anti-itch stuff on the bumps? Does she have bugs?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

I may have an answer....for you...found this...
Warning....
the website is very graphic.... on other issues...
but I wanted to verify the source.. where it came from....
scroll way down to Demodex Mite Infestion...
if you want to view from source... if not...look at the info below..
http://www.gypsymoonnigerians.com/Goat_Health.html

Demodex Mite Infestion

Areas circled are small cyst-like bumps filled with mites, arrow shows what the contents look like when expressed.
Below is a slide showing the mites

This doe was cured after two treatments of 2 cc ivermectin given orally every other day.....

Not sure what size doe it was that was treated with 2cc's.. but it may give you an idea...
what may be the problem with her....
maybe call a vet and see what dosage she should get per lb...
to me... it looks like... what may be happening to her... good luck.. :hug:


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Wow. That is a good site, Pam. I may have nightmares after the last picture though.. :shocked:

Gina


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Thanks ..Gina....I thought it was informative as well..........but man... some of the stuff on there... is so sickening .....that is why.... I put a warning on it.....not for the squeamish... :wink:


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Thank You Pam! I am really thinking that could be what is going on with her. I didn't get a chance to update last night, but I didn't get to physically inspect the lump last night. This evening during feeding time I did a rub down - The lumps that were soft with something in them are clearing up, and they form scabs - no traces of bursting at all, they just scab over, and you can tell she scratches them - and that's how she is pulling the hair out over them. However, a NEW lump formed up on the very back of her neck about half way from the shoulder to the back of the ear. It's literately on the back of her neck bone. But all the others on the left side seem to be healing up now. The one I noticed on her jaw has basically gone away, and now there is another one on the lower right side of her neck about midway from chest/bottom of ear. 
I really do think we are dealing with something like Mites! And they do appear to come up like the pics Pam posted, but they get really big, then just seem to sort of die off?

I am still reserved about it being CL, but really feel it's a parasite other than CL.

Unfortunately, her foot does not seem to be getting any better  There just isn't much more we can do for her - we cleaned it out and put thrush buster in it. 
She's really sneaky <what goat isn't? LOL>, but she really gets me laughing. She LOVES our back deck and sneaks up on it no matter what I do! I've blocked off the steps going up and the area around them, but somehow she still managed to get up there, and it's too tall for her to just jump, or at least I'd think it is...haha...
So when I run her off the deck, and add more things to block it off, she sulks...laying down on the steps LOL It's cute though because my computer desk is right next to the dinning room, and all I have to do is peer around the corner and look out the window and see her peering in at me.

My husband has decided we won't keep her  His uncle wants to come and look at her tomorrow, and we'll either sell her to him for meat, or he might know some people that would want her. We're afraid if her foot doesn't get better she is going to suffer. I'd rather sell her to his uncle to be humanely destroyed for meat, than see her suffering. Or if these other people can fix her up to use as a weed eater. I don't feel now that she should be bred - not with that foot, it wouldn't be fare to her.

I'm just really sad. But at least we have a couple of options.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

If the lumps are disappearing overnight without bursting and leaving a nasty mess, its NOT CL.

On the foot rot. Foot rot can be cured and she will walk normally again.

These are my bucks feet.




























I have trimmed weekly for 5 months and while they are not and never will be perfect, he can do this,

This is him today trying to climb a tree while he's waiting for the doe to deliver his babies.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Wow, that looks painful! And that is hilarious with the tree LOL Thanks for the pic! Her foot doesn't look as bad as what you pictured. I really need to get a pic of her when she's on the porch to show. She walks on the tip of her left foot, and either she was born that way or they didn't take care of her feet at all. It's as if her ankle is permanently set to walk that way. Her foot is much shorter than the others, but the problem is on the inside. The abscess is really deep, and it's right up in the tip of the foot - which is why it's so very painful for her to walk.
Her other feet looked okay, not great, but nothing terribly off. She does seem to get around MUCH better on her left hind foot now, thank goodness!

Tomorrow we're supposed to go to the feed store that was recommended to us, and I want to get some wormer for her and for the buckling. Can oral wormer kill parasites that are on the skin? Or should we do the injection type? or are there powders, etc? I need to read up on this stuff.

She's still very content with having her own space, and I think she likes that our other does can not come through the fence to harrass her LOL The only thing she DISLIKES is I feed her last, and it drives her crazy! Poor girl! BUT, I am able to get over and give her a rubdown, etc. while she is eating and go inside to wash up. 
And yep, not seeing any kind of dicharge from the abscesses, nothing on her hair.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

For lice you can use sevin dust or DE. If you use DE make sure its food grade as the other contains silica, a glass type substance. Ivermectin will kill some external parasites but not all.

For the abscess you can keep trimming small amounts to keep the ickies out of it and expose it to air. The air won't allow the bacteria to grow. A good 3 cc shot of penicillin works for foot rot too.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Just thought I'd update that there isn't any big change. The lumps look to be about the same, but I haven't done a rub down on her since Friday afternoon. I'm waiting for the rain to slow down a bit so I can go out to feed - our shed isn't done yet so they have to eat outside.

Yesterday afternoon my husband put our other two does and buckling across the creek into the wooded area. The girls have figured out they can jump back/forth as they please to go into the wooded area - lots of yummy weeds and undergrowth!

Well, Molly wanted to get over there BAD. She just had that look on her face as she watched the others.... One of the kids didn't latch the gate, and she squeezed through it, and took off at a mad dash towards the creek, my two nephews, my son and my daughter were after her and it was just HYSTERICAL that girl was DETERMINED! So we let her go, and at feeding time my husband put her back in our backyard where we've had her staying.

Today, the girls and the buckling went back across the creek and Molly was at the gate with that 'look.' 
I told my husband, she hasn't gotten any worse, and we aren't concerned about CL as much since there is no progress, he wasn't going to let her go in the pen. Then had a change of heart. She loped off and joined the others in the woods, and she's been out with them all day. I'll put her back in the backyard when I feed her. My husband still doesn't want to keep her, but we'll just see what happens. She's getting around better on her feet, but she's still very very sore, and we are still doubting she can fully recovery.

For now, she is still doing fine, still eating, but still has those lumps! BTW, we did try to find some Ivermectin <spelling>, but they were out of the kind we'd need! They had a couple of different powders, but we weren't sure which one would be good. 
If it's mites, would we buy the kind for lice? There wasn't one that indicated mites, only lice. It's about $6.00 for a large container at the Tractor Supply store that we were at.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

I would just use Seven dust for mites and lice infestation. Ivermectin injectactable works too. 1cc per 100lbs


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

I'm definitely not the goat expert because we're as new to it as you are. But those pictures to me, if it was a horse instead of a goat, I would say those are bots! Can goats get bots? Ivermectin orally kills them quickly. She's such a pretty girl.....


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Thanks so much! I couldn't find Seven Dust at Tractor Supply, but they did have 2 other things that I think would be comparable, I wish I could remember the name - I want to say it started with a 'P'? The man was showing it to me and didn't really catch the name - we were looking at the label to see what it treated. It listed a few things like lice.

Perfect7 - I have no idea, that is a great question! Hopefully someone can answer it!

I did a rubdown of her today, and there are only 3 lumps, all 3 are new, and all the others have dried up, scabbed, and the hair is missing from those - probably from healing and I am sure she still scratches them off.
I looked at her feet, and they didnt' look too awful, but she definitely needs a trim!
OH - We did try to get hoof trimmers, but Tractor Supply was sold out! All they had were the ones for hoof rot. So, I need to find somewhere local I can get them - Tractor Supply is about an hour away from us. I have to get feed this week, so I'll keep an eye out for them then.

My husband bought Safeguard wormer for goats, think that could help with whatever is going on with her? Or something stronger <plus the seven dust - I still want to get it especially if it helps with ticks! as the girls are venturing into the woods now>.

Thanks again everyone, I am still holding onto some hope for her! Even if my husband isn't!


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

The sevin dust we got at Walmart in the lawn and garden section (it's something people put on gardens to kill bugs). It was like $5 for a little can and $10 for a big can. We got the big can and dusted 6 goats twice with it, with plenty still left over. :wink:


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

really? so you can use the garden seven dust on goats? I figured it had to be specially made for animals, or do they have it specially made for animals in the garden section? Sorry I am really new to goats, and never had anything like this happen anytime in my life with animals.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

I sure hope it's the right stuff or I feel stupid! But all of my goats are still living and it killed all of the lice our buckling had really quickly. :ROFL: I will let you know if any of them start to sprout corn! :slapfloor:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

yes its the same stuff you use to kill bugs in the garden.

wear gloves and watch the eyes of the goats -- dont want to get it in there.

safeguard isnt very effective in most areas -- but it wont hurt them


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

oh and you can order stuff from www.jefferslivestock.com - if you order more then 50.00 they wave the 5.00 handling fee. There is no shipping cost unless you buy somethign that says "freight" and then you have ot pay for the freight on that item.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Thanks so much! I will check out the website and when I go back to Walmart I'll look for the Seven Dust too!

When we went to Tractor Supply all they had to worm the goats with was the liquid safeguard. They had the pour on for cattle but they were HUGE containers that were well over $100. We don't need a container that big right now it would probably expire well before we'd ever finish it off - we only have 4 goats right now.

My husband hasn't wormed Molly yet, he will do it when he gets up this afternoon.
I'll let him do it even though I know how to - I used to give horses oral medication years ago - ALL the time.


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Lay the syringe in a hot dog bun with a little peanut butter on the end. When she takes the end in her mouth, squirt it in.  You don't have to hold her and shove it down her throat. No stress for you or her.  You may have to change the "treat" end when she figures it out. :laugh: God bless you for giving her a home. I'm in Alabama and go to the auction all the time. Taking my turkeys this weekend. :leap: See ya' round Gobbles. You jerk.

Gina


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*



mrs. lam said:


> *Lay the syringe in a hot dog bun with a little peanut butter on the end. When she takes the end in her mouth, squirt it in. * You don't have to hold her and shove it down her throat. No stress for you or her.  You may have to change the "treat" end when she figures it out. :laugh: God bless you for giving her a home. I'm in Alabama and go to the auction all the time. Taking my turkeys this weekend. :leap: See ya' round Gobbles. You jerk.
> 
> Gina


Be very careful with this method as goats have been known to inhale and swallow the syringe. Please use a BIG syringe size of at least 35 CC to prevent this.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Thanks so much! I'll have my husband help me worm her this evening before he goes to work. I don't have any hotdog buns right now but she won't take treats. SHOCKING I Know! I've offered her treats and she just isn't interested. Now break off some weed leaves that she can't reach through the fence and she's all over you LOL I'm assuming she's never ever been fed a treat in her life. Our other two does LOVE ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING LOL ESPECIALLY animal crackers! Molly just pushes the animal crackers aside.

I did go out and check on her today, and she has more lumps coming up! UGH! I want to get the seven dust, but it's been raining nearly every day so I'd have to wait until we get a dry day so her coat dries out completely. I thought her neck was getting better because the other day I only felt 3 lumps total, everything else was old. Poor girl. Her foot is still an issue. We'll get the hoof trimmer and trim her heel and see if that helps. She'll never walk right, but I'm still holding onto some hope here that I can fix her up.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Okay, so another update. We are really thinking she has MITES! Definitely don't think she has CL at all. She has 2 LUMPS! On the right side of her neck, the left side is scabbed and healing, and actually feels better!

I might try to get seven dust tomorrow, but would that kill mites alone or would I still need Ivermectin?

My husband doesn't want me to spend any $$ on her because he doesn't want to keep her, but I am still trying to figure out ways to help her. The biggest set back is that foot.... She needs trimmed for sure, but not sure if she'll ever walk comfortably even as the abscess heals.

My husband knows a couple of people who are interested in her, but we'll see what happens. If she is sold for meat, she will face a humane ending and wouldn't be allowed to suffer. I am so sad for her though. She's come around quite a bit. And I don't treat her any different than the others. She gets her grain, she gets her hay, and we hand feed her some weeds that she can't reach through the fence and she LOVES them.

Tonight she is with the others, but tomorrow my husband is going to seperate her when he gets home in the morning. 
Our other does won't let her get too close to them, and push her around, but she gets along great with the buckling, and he is ALWAYS excited when she is in the pen with them. He follows her around, and you can see that 'motherly' instinct in her as she watches over him. I'd love for her to get healthy enough to breed to him, I think she'd make a really good mama.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

she sounds like she has the will to survive so I wouldnt give up on her yet.

The seven dust shoudl take care of the mites but if you did have the injectable ivermectin that would be best. I have it on hand for all my goats and its worth it when you need it believe me.

I am purchasing a new bottle from jeffers and its like 31.00 or something near that. Not a bad price. I get the generic


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Thanks! I am going to call around town and see if anyone has the seven dust, and check on the ivermectin. We live in a small town, but at least I can find one or the other. I wasn't able to get the ivermectin because Tractor supply was sold out when we stopped by there <an hour drive away>. I'd think that Kmart's garden center or one of the feed stores would at least have the seven dust. No rain tomorrow <YIPPIE!!!>, so I could get it and put it on right away.

I am definitely not giving up on her, and I hope she can get better. I wish I had some batteries for my old digital camera, it has video on it, then I could show exactly how she is walking. She has a terrible limp on her front left. If I can come across any batteries that will work in the cam I'll get some video.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof issues NEW QUESTION POST 12!!*

Well, she spent yesterday evening/allnight/all of today in the big pen with the others. She stayed in the woods ALL DAY today with the buckling. 
She is very lame now, and so I've put her back in our backyard area. The lumps are about the same - left side is still healing, 2 lumps on the right side, and other scabs that are healing.

I put a choker collar on her after I fed the others, no worries I know how to use them and make sure they don't tighten around her neck.
I soaked her foot in warm epsom salt water, and had my daughter take a few pics with my camera. Her hoof is AWFUL. I did clip some of the heel off with scissors until we can get some hoof trimmers, and after the pic I cleaned it out the best I could, and cut away some of that icky black stuff. I put thrush buster on it/in it and held it up for a few minutes so it could soak in. I gave her 1 tylenol in a syringe w/water <I am going to get asprin tomorrow>, and a piece of apple for being such a GOOD GOOD GIRL! I was so proud of her, and having that collar on her really helped. We also praised her with a little extra grain while we did the soaking. She knew we were trying to help her, bless her heart.

Anyway, the pics are really kind of disgusting, but I know I need to get them up. My husband is set on selling her and the people will use her for meat. It's just part of the boer meat business, and one I know I'll never get used too. BUT so long as she has a chance, and so long as she is here, I'll do everything I can for her. You can definitely tell she is happy here despite the other girls picking on her. She LOVES the buckling and they are always together when I let her go in the big pen. I'd have let her stay in there if her foot hadn't gotten worse - I dont' want her over in the woods walking on sticks, etc.

With all that said, here are two pics of her foot from this evening. I feel so awful for her...
BTW, it looks wet/shiny from where I had soaked her foot...


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

sounds like you've made up your mind to sell her.
but the thrush buster would cure that, great stuff. looks like a serious case of hoof rot.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

I agree.... :wink: with treatment...trimming and keeping her in a dry area...will cure her...it takes time... but she should be OK..... remember... keeping goats in a wet areas....they will develope bad hoof problems.... keep up on trimming every 2 weeks or so... just a little at a time... will cut away the bad..... so she can heal..... Good luck.... :wink: :thumb:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

I think she should heal up fine -- your husband should read these posts


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Thanks everyone. I told him when he got home from work this morning that if the two people he said are 'interested' in her don't come, then not to push the issue, because I am with you all, I think she could heal up with proper care. He said her leg will never heal <she has sort of a club foot and walks funny anyway>, but I told him she was most likely born like that. She walks on the tip of her foot.

The ground has been really wet this past week, BUT after today it's supposed to get warm and stay DRY for a while!

How often should I use thrush buster? And if it needs to stay dry how can I keep it clean? Would it still be okay to soak it in warm epsom salt water? Dirt gets way down in that opened area where my husband popped the abscess.

I am going to get seven dust when we go to the store later today, so I can apply it tomorrow. With all the girls going in the woods and the buckling I want to keep it on hand for any problems - so far so good with the others. 
When I put the seven dust on, I will have to watch my kids so they wash their hands if they handle her.

I need to build her a better shelter from the rain later, so last night before I went to bed I let her go back in the pen and have a nice dry place to sleep. And of course her and the buckling are together sleeping in the old shelter I made, while the other 2 girls are in the mini barn <it has a roof now WOOHOO!!!>.

I don't want to get rid of her, I don't want her to be butchered either. I'd rather get her healed up and find her another home! BUT nobody is going to want her until we get her healthy.
I still say she will be a really good mama, especially the way she has been looking over the buckling.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

OK, I have always or I should say almost always given meds orally because that is how everyone says to do it, BUT I have been reading this and now I am so confused.

My personal preference for Deworming goats:
Treating wormy kids and wormy goats

Ivomec PLUS and Valbazen are my choices of anthelmintics (dewormers) - both get liver fluke as well as the nasty stomach worms that cause anemia. Valbazen is not safe for pregnant does or those who "may" be pregnant as it causes birth abnormalities. But Valbazen is a great dewormer for kids because they are more likely to have tapeworms which the Ivomec or Ivomec Plus does not kill. And Valbazen is great for open (not pregnant) does and wethers and bucks.

Valbazen is a liquid suspension given orally at the rate of 1cc/10lbs of goat body weight.

Ivomec and Ivomec Plus are injectable cattle dewormers that goat owners use "off label" or "extra label" -meaning it has not been approved for use in goats but through experience by goat owners is commonly used safely.
Dewormers of Choice
Always Inject Ivomec and Ivomec PLUS SUBQ

Ivomec PLUS used for all gastro Intestinal worms as well as Liver Fluke

Never use Valbazen on Pregnant Does!
Valbazen Oral Suspension is great for kids, bucks and Open Does

I use Ivomec and Ivomec Plus successfully at the rate of 1cc/40lbs goat weight SUbQ injection for my goats. If they are severely wormy- I use 1cc/30lbs and ALWAYS SubQ in this case because of the possible bleed out from using it orally as explained in the BottleJaw Article in this website.
Oral application is quickly becoming the easy route that goat owners take in administering injectable dewormers. for giving it also leave the system quick- whereas injections work at a slower rate and stay in the body longer.

There are 4 stages of larval development and in order to kill all 4 stages (which have an approximate developmental period of 10 days) we deworm 10 days apart for a consecutive 3 times- so you will deworm , then in another 10 days and again in another 10 days - then again one month later and then on an as needed basis.

Never give any injectable dewormer orally for severely wormy goats as it can cause severe bleed out in the gut:
You are always advised by me to inject Ivomec and Ivomec PLUS injectable- it is made for injecting. When it is given orally it passes through the body within hours. It kills large numbers of parasites quickly and when they die they detach from the stomach lining and intestinal walls,leaving thousands of tiny holes that bleed into peritoneal cavity.
This photo:
shows what happens inside the heavily infested goat if the worms are killed off too quickly via oral application of dewormer- oral application kills too quickly and all the worms let go at once, causing internal bleeding and possible death of the goat- on heavy infested goats you should always administer your dewormer via SubQ injection as it goes into the system slower and works for a longer period of time therefore eliminating the possible (let go internal bleed-out) I am not sure where the idea of administering injectable dewormers orally came about (probably around the time everyone was giving the pour on Cydectin orally - another NONO) but folks.. it is Meant to be injected for a reason. Please.. Inject it.
Oral administration leaves the body in a matter of hours. Injecting it stays in the body for days doing the job it is intended to do. Not reprimanding or meaning to be nasty but this is


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

to keep the hoof clean.

I'd put thrush buster on once a week until healed..after each applying wrap the hoof in duct tape.

It was REALLY muddy here this breakup, so two of my goats got scald. perfectly fine trimming job, they just got crud stuck way up in their hooves. ;P


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Interesting read on the medication. If a goat is suspected of having a lot of worms, I'd be very leary on giving oral <and we bought oral, don't have injectable>.

Thanks for the info Katrina! I don't have any duct tape but again, we'll go to the grocery store and I'll get some. I've got some long wound dressing pads I've kept from my last c-section. I could cut those into small sections and cover the foot before using the duct tape to help give a little cushioning, and keep the tape from being right on it. I've wrapped feet before - used to put hoof packs on horses years ago. So I'll do this as soon as I get the tape.

It's been raining and thundering off and on all morning, so all the goats are laying down in the shelters. I will be SO HAPPY when we get some dry weather! 
We are most certainly making up for the unusually dry, warm weather we had in April. As soon as May 1st hit....we got 6 inches of rain in that weekend! And it just seems like someone forgot to turn the faucet off upstairs! 80s-upper 80s by next week and looks like a DRY forecast, so I can't wait for today to be over with!


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Something else. I read somewhere else, that someone put dog boots on her goat, and they are doing great. (different reason) That will help keep them dry and take them off at night if they are in a barn that is not all wet.

Just a idea.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

that's another option.

I'd change out the tape every couple days, the two that I had do this were better overnight with the thrush buster though!
I think they like the duct tape boots though


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

I wouldn't say nobody would want her until she's completely healed. Some people like me like to take on projects like her.  
It sounds like you are doing really good with her, and if the weather ever dries up where you guys are (I forget where you are) then it should help speed the healing of her foot along.
I know it's tough when you get them with problems you have to start treating right away, but look at all the valuable experience! :wink:


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

I'd clean out the hoof with Betadine, soak in 1cc of LA 200 hold it up for a couple minutes to let it soak in and then pack the hoof tightly with Sea Salt and lime. That will dry it out and keep it protected. The salt pack will form a hard crust to hold the meds in.


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## citylights (Jul 3, 2009)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Aww, the old girl sounds like a great old girl -- I hope she makes it and finds a good home (if you can't keep her!)


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*



myfainters said:


> I'd clean out the hoof with Betadine, soak in 1cc of LA 200 hold it up for a couple minutes to let it soak in and then pack the hoof tightly with Sea Salt and lime. That will dry it out and keep it protected. The salt pack will form a hard crust to hold the meds in.


That is interesting! What kind of lime and where to get it?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Thanks so much for all the help! I will see what I can come up with today. She is in with the other girls and the buckling, and I see no reason why she would still have to be seperated. We're going into town in a short bit and I want to find some seven dust or something similar to it for the lumps, and again, get whatever I can find for her hoof. 
She seemed to walk a little better yesterday. But she spends ALL day browsing in the woods, so it's harder to observe until she comes out of the woods. And yesterday evening we had one pop up thunderstorm/rain after another after another! And then very strong storms in the evening, so I didn't get to spend much time with the goats yesterday.

I'm still holding onto hope, and I keep putting it into my husband's head that we 'can' fix her foot. Sure because of her ankle she may never walk normally again, but if she can become comfortable, I see no reason not to keep her.

Perfect7 - I love projects too! I was just TERRIFIED I had brought home a goat with a disease! Not knowing much about diseases and CL, I was again, terrified. I've come to learn that while CL is dangerous, and threatening to humans and other goats, it's not the end of the world if treated accordingly.

BTW, all the rain has moved on, and we're looking towards DRY & WARM/HOT TEMPS! We've had a LOT of rain this month, inches, and inches! We received 2 inches of rain yesterday from the storms, probably more than that!
Also - I am in Central Kentucky


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Her foot may straighten up with consistent weekly trimming. Normally its not a permanent issue and due to improper or non existent trimming.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Thanks, I hope that is what is going on with her. What a shame the people who had her before didn't take care of her.

I haven't been able to get out to the store yet. My husband is working on the mini barn, so we'll go after while. Most likely I'll soak her foot in epsom salt to get it cleaned out, put the thrush buster in there, I have some absorbant pads I can cut into pieces to put over the bottom, and wrap it with duct tape. Most of the farm stores are closed now, but all I need is just more epsom salt, and I want to get seven dust too, hopefully kmart will have some I can use.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Plain old fashioned Lysol (in the brown bottle ) works really well at killing bacteria that causes foot scald/rot. I didn't exactly measure, just poured some in a 1/2 gallon ice cream bucket and added enough water to fill 3/4 of the way full. I soaked the foot for about 5 minutes as that was all he would allow. Lysol is a great old time cure all for lots of livestock problems.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Thanks! I didn't find the Lysol at the Kmart we went too, but I'll look for it at Walmart tomorrow if we get over there like my husband is planning. 
I did clean her hoof out, but my husband said we should wait a couple of days until her hoof dries out before putting anything on it so it doesn't hold the moisture. Tomorrow we'll clean it real good and apply more thrush buster. I keep convincing him we're keeping her! And at least he is sort of showing interest now....so yep I am determined to keep this girl here!

I bought Seven Dust 5% and I put some on both sides of her neck, her chest and shoulders. Tomorrow evening I'll douse her better. 
Her left side of the neck is still healing and I didn't feel any new lumps. The right side there are still 2 lumps, and other scabs that are healing. I sure hope we can get rid of this soon so her neck will heal up.

She was out in the woods ALL day today, you can tell she loves being over there. And bless her heart, she just tries so hard with that foot...


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

glad he isnt arguing with you about your determination 

I hope this the Seven works for her issue


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Thanks! I put more Seven Dust on her this evening, and soaked her foot in warm epsom salt water so I could get a look at it. Only soaked for a few minutes though. I held it up and let it dry for a bit and put on more thrush buster.

her back foot is sore today too, and could be because it still needs another trim job, but I'm worried it could be some hoof rot too. So I'll have to check her out. Her neck continues to heal on the left, and still has the same two lumps on the right - but they are getting smaller.

She's letting us pet her a little more without having to catch her. That is definitely a move in the right direction!

I think tomorrow the ground will be dried out better, I'll have my husband help clean her foot out, and we'll try to trim her feet <we still haven't gotten a hoof trimmer yet but we will!>, I know he'll have something he can use temporarily to trim, and hopefully we can get her foot packed and wrapped.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

You are doing a wonderful job with helping her!
I don't use "hoof trimmers" on my goats, I use the pointed pruning trimmers from Tractor Supply, they have a spring type handle, very sharp and work great....cost around $12.00 for them, in a pinch, a pair of very sharp tin snips will work...or a pair of heavy garden scissors.


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Remember to give the sad puppy dog look if he mentions getting rid of her. :tears: 
This got my 2 ducks back from the auction.... :greengrin:

Gina and Jack & Molly ( I did sell evil duck this weekend along with my jerk turkeys)


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Thanks everyone. We are putting it off one more day before we decide to pack her foot. The ground is drying out pretty good now thanks to the mid summer like temps! It's been crazy around here, it was very cool last week, upper 50s, and low 60s, rain, rain rain! And now it's dry and been in the mid to upper 80s since Saturday! 
We've had 9.95 inches of rain since May 1st! From Jan-April we had less than 9 inches total! I think they said it was the third wettest May ever on record.

Anyway, today we blocked off the entrance to our backyard, and opened the gate so they could browse in the backyard, and my husband was hoping they'd graze so we don't have to cut the back yard <haha>. They spent more time up under the deck where it was cool! Well, that and our other two girls kept trying to break through my barrier at the top of the deck steps so they could get on the deck...and try to sneak their way in through the back door which I left open while I was cooking dinner...LOL Silly girls!

Molly was walking a little better, but her hind left is definitely bothersome. I looked at it and it needs to be trimmed. My husband had to run errands today before he went to work, and didn't have time to trim so we're planning on it tomorrow if he has something he can use. We'll get something this weekend for sure for trimming hooves, I'm sure the local feed store would have something - hoof trimmers, prune scissors, etc.

Her neck is still continuing to heal on the left, I'm not feeling any new lumps on her at all. She still has the two lingering lumps on the right side.
She's starting to let me reach out and rub on her without darting away when I get 5 ft away. So I think she is starting to trust me more.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Well since the forum is back up, thought I'd write another update. 
There isn't a whole lot of change, but her foot is still very sore.
I treated her left front with thrust buster last night, and she's off again on the hind left so I trimmed it the best I could, and thinking she might have a little hoof rot in the tip of the toe - nothing terrible that I can tell, but I put some thrush buster on it as well. We were going to wrap her foot today before my husband went to work, and guess what? IT STORMED. So we didn't have time to get it done before her foot got wet. I cleaned it out tonight, a little mud was on it, but it didn't look too dirty, still smells...bleh....

As for the lumps, she still has 2 on the right. The smaller one is getting hard now, and looks like it will start to dry up. I've never seen anything actually come out of these, they just seem to dry up, and heal with a scab. I did put more seven dust on yesterday.

She has come such a long way in the past few weeks! She went from not letting you touch her unless you tricked her and grabbed onto her. Now, she will usually just stand and let you rub on her. She's allowing my daughters to touch her too, but she has no patience for my son unless he is feeding her something...LOL

I took a few pics late Tues afternoon, this is what she looks like now...










You can tell how she favors the left feet









When she needs a break on the front end...









I circled the two remaining lumps in the next pic. If you look at the pics above, her left side looks good, and there are still some healing scabs. The other places on the right side are from past lumps that are almost healed up.
These are really itchy - in fact yesterday when I was checking them she was trying to scratch them, and you can tell it was bothersome.









My son feeding the goats some leaves he picked <that I told him needed to stay on the trees!> 









My 3yo with Molly. My little girl is such an adventurer, and within 5 minutes of going outside, she looks like a wild child LOL



























BTW, the reddish stuff on her is dirt. We've been letting the goats out into our back yard the last few days to graze, and it's been hot out, although they have shade in their pen, they LOVE going up and resting under the deck where it's nice and cool...

My husband is still talking like he won't want to keep her, but for the time being we're still seeing what we can do. Hopefully we can get her comfortable on her feet. I feel so bad for her. But she does seem pretty happy, and she is determined.


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## citylights (Jul 3, 2009)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

great pics! That doe may just be as determined to stay with y ou as your husband is to have her leave! LOL


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*



citylights said:


> great pics! That doe may just be as determined to stay with y ou as your husband is to have her leave! LOL


LOL!!!!! I think your right!!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

She looks great, amazing what a little TLC does for the spirit too!


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

I love those pictures! In the bottom two it looks like she is smiling, and you can even see some humor in her eyes. She's looking good!


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## Goober (Aug 21, 2009)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Some antibiotics, such as injectable Pen, combined with cutting out anything dead and continuing with the Thrush Buster (I have had awesome results with it in horses) should do the trick. If it looks dead, cut it out; dead flesh is just a reservoir for more bacteria to grow.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Thanks everyone! I think she looks really good too compared to when I brought her home. Her coat even looks so much healthier and much more pretty too! And she has become a FATTY! I'm trying to watch how much grain I give her now as I don't want her getting too much weight on her feet, as I could see that just adding to the discomfort.

Goober - Thanks so much! I receive a payment FINALLY on Tues for the work I do, so I am hoping to get a few things we need for the goats, and I'll look into an antibiotic for her.
My husband uses thrush buster at work on horses, and he said it's really good stuff too, so I'm glad I have something good to work with.
I did trim her feet the other day - down to the point I can't trim anymore off yet.

We bought two more does on Friday, and I figured they'd all be at each other for a while, but everyone is getting along. And Molly seems to be getting along with these does really well, so hopefully she's made a couple more friends.

Still not 100% sure if we'll keep her, but still just going from day to day. At least if I could get her feet healthy, she could be sold to someone as a pasture ornament <weed eater>, as good as she is around the kids, if someone worked with her I think she'd come around even more and possibly be a good pet too. I work with her every time I go out.
But then if her feet heal, and she is able to get pregnant, why sell her?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

I just thought I'd update real quick. First, I didn't get to treat Molly today, because ::drum roll insert:: ..... My husband did! OMG, yeah I am in shock! He has avoided messing with her all together since I got her, as you all know - determined to not keep her.

He went out today, cleaned her feet, trimmed, and put the thrush buster on. He tipped the ends of her horns so they aren't so sharp, put on the seven dust, AND he wormed her! Yes, he wouldn't let me worm her, because he had intended to have her butchered!! And you can't use wormer on a goat that will be butchered within the first week and a half or so.

She slept a lot this afternoon, but of course she was on her toes at feeding time


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

That's great news! I'll keep my fingers crossed she will stay with you. 

Gina


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Thanks! She seems to be doing much better. She still has an awful limp, but she's limping 'faster' haha.... She still has the lumps and scabs - the remaining lumps are getting smaller, and the scabs are healing slowly.

I cleaned her foot tonight with bleach/water/dawn dish soap and her feet look good. She's been off on the hind left, but I can't really understand why. Might be a little scald between her toes, so I made sure to treat it with thrush buster. 
Her front foot is slowly looking better! There is a lot of dead stuff that is trying to fall off that I need to trim off. We STILL can't find regular trimmers! I forgot to ask the feed store that I called today if they happen to have any. Most places around here sell stuff for horses...But not much for goats - best places are about 35-50 minutes away.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Well, I am not sure I am winning this one... She is lame on 3 legs. We packed her severe hoof rot foot, she has a tiny bit of hoof scald in her hind left, otherwise I have no clue what is up, no hoof rot. And now this morning she started walking lame on her hind right! She has hoof scald there. I am wondering if it's from walking in the grass in the mornings when there is dew on it? I put thrush buster on, and checked her foot for any other issues. 
She's mostly lame on the front left & hind right, the left hind isn't a big issue. She was fine on the hind end yesterday.


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

That could just be from favoring the other feet?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Could possibly be. I am wondering if walking through the dew in the mornings is not doing her any good. Poor thing is soooo lame. She still looked off when I looked out the window to check on them a short while ago. She's laying down a lot, which I am glad. I put the thrush buster on yesterday to help with the raw area between her toes, so hopefully it'll clear up. She didn't let it stop her at feeding time, and when we brought in the hay rolls. 
I sure hope she gets better soon, poor girl, we're doing what we can for her.

My husband wrapped her front foot 2 days ago with animalintex and duct tape. Her foot was looking a lot better, but i know it'll take more time to get her healed up. I hope she isn't a goat that has cronic hoof problems. 
At least she is not in a great big herd, and at least she is with us - trying to help her. As far as her overall look, she looks great, her coat looks really good, her neck is still slowly healing.


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## citylights (Jul 3, 2009)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Aw, I hope she's doing okay. She sure seems like a trooper! I have a couple of lame goats (arthritis), but it sure doesn't affect their ability to enjoy life!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*



citylights said:


> Aw, I hope she's doing okay. She sure seems like a trooper! I have a couple of lame goats (arthritis), but it sure doesn't affect their ability to enjoy life!


Thanks, and I agree, they sure do strive when they have lameness issues.
She seems a little better today, but has been soo lazy...LOL She is laying in the shade next to the 2 rolls of hay we bought yesterday, and is just munching away! Along with our little girl, Trouble, and our buckling, Boe.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Instead of clippers or trimmers, try a hoof knife. My preference is for the el-cheapo hoof knives at TSC...they're like $4, but they work great on goats because they're thin and somewhat flexible. The little 'hook' on the end works wonders for cleaning crap out of the tip end of the toe, too..

Something else to consider is that she has *infection* in her feet.. When you have a confirmed infection that's bad enough to go on as long as this one has, it's definitely time to use antibiotics.. That's something I haven't heart much about that so far with this gal.. BioMycin 200 is cheap...like under $20 for a 100ml vial. I'd give her about 3ml/100bs 1x/day for probably 5 straight days.

Also..I know you've been using Thrushbuster, and have had good experience with Thrushbuster in the past...but let's face it, if it were as good for this particular goat's ailment as you've known it to be for other animals in the past, she'd have been showing improvement by now.

Since it's not, might be time to switch.. Personally, I'd try Kopertox. It's a copper sulfate solution and copper sulfate will kill almost anything if administered in high enough doses. Since this foot is pretty bad, I'd probably reapply it about once a day..

As for the lameness and the fact that she's laying around a lot, that foot -- or, those feet, rather -- are probably hot and painful and inflamed... To me, that calls for at least one dose of banamine, 1ml/100lbs IM. You can give banamine relatively safely for up to 3 days, but it can be a little rough in the innards after a while. It'll help with the pain and inflammation, though.

So, BioMycin/Kopertox/Banamine....that's my $.02.


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

I too am in an on going battle with hoof issues. :sigh: I found Thrush buster and it has so far worked for my sheep Moose. The word is still out on Hershy. Will reapply tonight. As for Murray.. I am starting to think it might be arthritis. His front ankle joint creaks and is puffy. I have cleaned and trimmed the hoof several times and it looks fine. No funky smell or scald. He walks/hops around and it stays stiff. He doesn't flex it like everyone else. When he does move it, it creaks like my knees. I'm thinking of using a linament on him. Any other suggestions?

Does TSC have the BioMycin 200? I know they have LA 200. We have more rain coming this weekend....I am ready to scream.

Gina


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

My local TSC doesn't carry BioMycin...they carry LA200 instead. It's the same drug, but the LA200 apparently hurts *really bad,* whereas BioMycin is formulated not to sting.. I can't actually verify this, as I didn't see it first hand or anything, but a buddy of mine said he had one "stroke out" from LA200 once...shock, I took it to mean. Just collapsed and died. Needless to say, I don't use LA200. Plus, BioMycin's cheaper anyway.

My local Southern States coop recently started carrying BioMycin, and at right about the same price as Jeffers or Valley Vet.. If you have a SS local, you might check there. Otherwise, you can get it from Jeffers, Valley Vet, etc.

If Murray's hoof looks good and you think it's an ankle thing, you might try some Banamine.. Lots of folks seem to think of it as being strictly a pain med, but it's also a fever reducer and fairly potent anti-inflammatory. Could be that if you can get the swelling down and ease the pain a bit, he may start walking on it again and eventually 'walk it off.' If that helps, but he goes right back to limping after he's off the banamine for a few days, you might talk to your vet either about long-term NSAIDS (carprofen, for instance) or even maybe about a week's worth of dexamethasone..

Something else I'd look into would be Bo-Se, if you're in a selenium deficient area and he's not had any supplemenation.. Bo-Se is good for joint issues like low pasterns, contracted tendons, crooked legs in kids, etc.. We had a bowlegged doeling born this year, and I decided to take a wait-and-see approach to it. It looked like she was going to straighten up, but she didn't after about a week, so I gave her 1/2ml of Bo-Se one morning.. By the afternoon, I pointed to her and said to my wife "Look at her legs." My wife was like "WOW!"...could hardly believe her eyes, as the little girl's legs were almost 100% normal. The next day, she was perfect. Anyway, Bo-Se just seems to tighten things up somehow. If he stretched a ligament or tendon or something (aka, sprained it  ), it could be beneficial.

I actually remember reading once that zinc, vit.e, and selenium are recommended by a lot of herbalist-type folks as remedies for human sprains, strains, and so forth. Coincidence? Prolly not. lol


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Thanks so much Gina and cmjust0. THe hoof knife is a MUST. The closest Tractor Supply to us that i know of is about 40 minutes away, and we're planning to go back there this weekend so we can get hoof trimmers, and I'll look for the hoof knife. Right now my husband has a pair of decent scissors, and a rasp. We pretty much buy everything for them out of the county - including feed. 
We won't be able to make the trip over until Saturday when my husband is off work <he works 6 nights a week>.

Good thing is Molly is doing better, her front left is going to take a long time to heal. The hoof rot was DEEP down inside her foot and killed a lot of tissue. Honestly, I don't know if she'll ever walk without a bad limp again? If she were a horse, she'd have been stall bound for several weeks....

Tomorrow we're going to change her hoof pack, and clean it, we had all the rot out, but there was still some dead tissue that has been coming loose. We're using the thrush buster, and now the animalintex. Animalintex is great stuff, I remember using it years ago on several different hoof problems in horses. 
I think one thing that was working against us was dirt packing in there so it couldn't really heal. My husband is a pro at hoof packs.
We'll see how this works? And I'll definitely use the Koppertox on it when I can get it.

Her neck is still slowly healing, no new lumps. She jumped across the creek with all the others today and my husband cut down some small underbrush in the wooded area - eventually we're going to open it up a little and plant some grass next year. I thought Molly was in heaven.... she couldn't get enough LOL If there is a goat that can eat....it's Molly!

And she's continuing to come around. She's much more trusting, and is starting to love it when I scratch her neck and chest. Forget the rubbing, she wants a good scratch! 
She gets along great with all the other goats, and has settled in so well. I am thankful she is still with us, and I hope we can get her healthy, and eventually when she's ready, get her bred - as good as she is with the buckling, I can see her being great with her own kids.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

I guess you could wait until Saturday to go to TSC, but you almost certainly won't find Bio-Mycin there, and I doubt you'll find Kopertox either.. Trimmers? Probably...the "green handled" ones are the ones most folks wind up with for about $20 from TSC.

What you could do, though..  ..is order it all from Jeffers now and most likely have it on your doorstep sometime Thursday.  I just noticed that everybody -- and I mean EVERYBODY -- is out of the 100ml bottles of BioMycin, though. Jeffers is out, Valley Vet is out, KV Vet is out -- everybody. Pretty much only leaves the 250ml, which is like $27. That sucks, but if the catalog houses are out, it's gonna be hard to find *anywhere*.

On the bright side, Jeffers carries a generic version of Kopertox called Pritox, and it's about 40% less than name-brand Kopertox, and they have the much-revered "orange handled" hoof rot shears everyone seems to like so well for about $17..

And, the last order I made at Jeffers, I found a promo code online for 10% off the entire order.. I actually just went to Jeffers, put those three things in a card, entered the promo code I used before (I'll give it to you if you want) and it's still working. After the 10% discount, the total order was **$51** which just barely qualifies for free shipping.

Just sayin...saving yourself 80 minutes of driving and getting your goat under treatment 2-3 days quicker seems like a pretty good deal to me.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Thanks, I definitely would love to order from Jeffers. I was told of another store near where we buy our feed that is supposed to be real good, that my husband wants to check out.

I'm getting ready to go out with the goats, almost feeding time, but wanted to post -- my husband changed Molly's hoof pack today, and the smell was...disgusting! BUT, he sprayed her foot off with some water/bleach/dawn soap and her foot looks better. The tissue is slowly growing back, but it's going to be a long time before it's completely healed. She is good on all her other feet again, but this foot is still a big issue. It doesn't help that she had a bad looking ankle, so I don't believe it's all just the hoof rot, but having a bad foot/ankle all together. 
The animalintex is great stuff, works great on horses who have hoof problems, so I am hoping it will continue to help Molly.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

I thought I"d update real quick. I changed Molly's hoof pack earlier this evening, and her foot is looking better. It's going to take a long time for it to be healed up, but the tissue is growing back! The hoof rot went down in her foot probably well over an inch deep on the inside of one toe. But the entire area was affected on that toe. Next time I change the hoof pack, I'll try to remember to take pics. 
Still using thrush buster and animalintex/duct tape.
She was such a good girl, and afterwards, she didn't run off, she just stood there checking out the stuff I had used to clean her foot.

Her neck is still healing, it'll take time before it's all gone too. But she's looking good, walking better, although I'm sure she'll never lose her limp.

Next thing we need to do is trim her feet again, and do some corrective trimming. We're still learning about trimming, but hopefully the weather won't be so bad this weekend so we can do it --- I want the ground to be dry.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *PICS post 63! BEWARE -YUCK-*

Hey Everyone, I just thought I"d write an update on Molly tonight.
This morning she was a bit sore on her right hind - a little bit of hoof scald, but a little thrush buster and she was fine in the afternoon.

In fact. My husband changed her hoof pack this morning, but didn't get it on tight enough and it came off. So this afternoon when I got a chance to get outside to feed, I didnt' really 'watch' her until after she had finished because we had a lot going on <everyone trying to corner the lady with the feed LOL>
I was standing inside the stall with our preggo girls, and looked out to watch Molly as she had just finished her grain..

She was walking GREAT on all 4 feet! OMG I thought I was imagining it! I had my oldest daughter go over and have her walk around a bit, and sure enough she was walking good! 
I won't get too excited as we have a LONG way to go until her foot is completely healed, but WHEW that was so cool to see 
Of course the minute I put the hoof pack back on, she was limping again! But I'm sure the pack isn't all that comfortable - having a pad stuck over one toe, and tucked in between the toes, taped securly with duct tape....haha... But I think it's really helping.

Here's a pic right after we got her that I posted before:


















And here is the ones I took tonight:



























There is no more dead tissue, all the dark color/purple is thrush buster so it's really hard to see I guess. And it's hard in the pics to show just how deep this went. We had to dig out some more of the tissue between the first pics and the pics from tonight. It's really deep, but a lot of new tissue is forming. 
I've seen the biggest improvement since we started the thrush buster/animalintex treatment.

I did clean her foot better after the pic was taken, but her toes on that foot are in good shape. She's ready to have another trim, we've just been waiting so we can get everyone done - hoping for a dry day we can do it.

The next time I clean it out and use a little water/bleach to get the dirt off, I'll get a better pic. I am still changing this every other day unless she finds a way to get it off LOL


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *Update post 110*

cool beans -- looks like she will be making a full recovery fairly soon here


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *Update post 110*



StaceyRoop said:


> cool beans -- looks like she will be making a full recovery fairly soon here


Thanks! I know if it hadn't been for all if the wonderful folks here, I'd never have gotten this far with her! The CL scare really terrified me! But now, even if it were CL, I am not as terrified 

Hopefully the rain/storms tonight won't throw her off again. Between the rain and the dew in the mornings, I am sure it's not helping with foot scald, and looks like I'll be changing her hoof pack again in the morning...


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *Update post 110*

Not to sound like a broken record, but...is she getting antibiotics yet?


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *Update post 110*

I'm still having problems with Murray as well. :sigh: I did get the Kopertox this weekend and switched him over to that. Plus Pen. You know he loves to see me coming. 

Gina


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *Update post 110*

I'm so sorry your still having problems too Gina. I hope Murray gets better! Please let me know how the Kopertox works as we haven't gotten it yet, but I want too! My husband is sooo stubborn....ugh. He hails to 'thrush buster.' I told him Kopertox would be a better bet, but he wants to wait and see if the thrush buster heals it. That's all they use where he works, so he thinks it's the 'cure-all' to these issues. Did I say he is stubborn?

cmjust0 - no problem. We don't have her on anything right now. We were going to get her on antibiotics if the thrush buster/animalintex didn't work. She's doing really good, no more infection, it's just a matter of getting the tissue to grow back. The lumps are her neck are going away, but it's taking time. She has two lumps that are getting smaller and smaller each day, and the others have pretty much healed, or are still scabbed over. I still use Seven dust on her every few days.

Animalintex is a wonderful product for injuries and hoof problems. I used to use it when I worked with horses years ago, and my husband uses it anytime they have problems at the farm. All the farms around here use the stuff.
I have seen the biggest improvement since we started doing the hoof pack treatment with thrush buster/animalintex/duct tape. 
In fact, we have both our does with hoof rot on the stuff - the other doe is just about healed up. Her's wasn't severe, but it was pretty icky on one side of her toe and sore. 
I think as long as we keep up what we are doing, she's going to pull through just fine. But again, if she for some reason starts to get bad again, we'll get her on something.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *Update post 110*

Well another update.. 
Molly had some hoof scald on her back feet, one foot was really sore, the other just enough to throw her off. I started the Thrush XX treatment on her yesterday. Today, I took her hoof pack off her front foot with the severe hoof rot, and will try leaving it off for now, and treat with Thrush XX. She walked away almost NORMALLY! We'll see what tomorrow brings, and go from there. 
I wish the lumps on her neck would finally go away, the two that are left are taking forever... they are slowly getting smaller. They are really itchy, and she has scratched all the hair off of the smaller one, but not the bigger one. Everything else is scabbed and almost gone.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Questions about Cl & hoof *Update post 110*

And yet another update....

Molly is walking really good! I took her hoof pack off yesterday, and this evening it looked good - dry and wasn't full of dirt/mud. It's getting hot out and it's dry, so hopefully I won't have to pack her foot anymore. She hardly has a limp at all, but it'll take a lot of time for that foot to heal. The hoof rot ate away so much of her foot....
The lumps are annoying me! I wish they'd go away, but they are taking their time. I thought about having my husband help me, lead her up the drive to a place goats would never go, and inject a needle to try and open them up and drain them out/disinfect them. There are only 2 of them, and they are itchy.

BTW, we're getting ready to worm everyone and give shots hopefully tomorrow if TSC has everything we need. We do have safeguard oral wormer, but I want to do the shots at the same time. Yep they are gonna love us...LOL

Oh and I am pretty certain she may be in heat. She's been doing a LOT of tail wagging. Our buckling will chase her around trying to breed her, though he's too short -- it's hysterically funny to watch LOL She just finally gets tired of him and turns around, puts her horns into him a bit, and he shrugs off and goes to pester everyone else, but uh, not in 'that' way...haha...


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Well, I figured I'd post since you all have been with me through this!

Molly's feet are back in shape, she's fast as a bullet, and well... we aren't keeping her  She's getting a little rough with the other goats - using her horns on them <except for our herd queen and her buddy>. At night she lays by the hay and runs everyone else away, and gets VERY rough with our buckling and young doe. 
Someone hurt our young doe on the neck - she has a HUGE knot where we're positive is a bruise from her digging her horn in her. 
I am not 100% it was her <herd queen sometimes gets rough with this doe>. But we're afraid she's going to hurt one of the goats even if she wasn't the one who caused the knot <it's real big, and hard>.

She's in good shape body wise, just has one lump left on her neck, and the scars from the others are healing up nicely.

I have someone coming to look at her in the morning. I'm sad she has to be sold, but had to make the decision.
At least she is leaving here in the best shape we could get her in. She's filled out sooooo much and the past couple of weeks has been strictly on browse/grazing/hay with a handful of grain here and there.

I am so sad, but hopefully she will get the same kind of care she got with us. I still think it's amazing how good her feet are looking. Another week and another trim and you'd never know she ever had anything wrong with her.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Really sorry she has to go.  You put a lot of time and effort into getting her healthy, and like you said...at least she's leaving in pretty good shape. You kinda gave her a new start, and that's certainly commendable. 

Do make sure you get PAID for that work! Since she is a much better goat going out than she was coming in, so she's worth more money. More than 'killer' money, anyway.. You won't get it all back, but you should at least get some 'reward' for everything you did. 

Again...really sorry she didn't work out.


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

Aw, that bites. Hope she has a good home. Good job on getting here better. Take a picture with her and start a scrap book of rescues. Trust me. Molly is just the first. :greengrin: You are a sucker just like me. Animals in need will find you. (and me) :sigh: But it's worth it when you see the end result. Even if they turn out to be big brats. :laugh: 

Gina


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks everyone. She was sold to a farmer who lives in the northern part of the state. I was so sad to see her go  But she left in GREAT condition. She was soooo fat... he asked if she was pregnant LOL I told him I didn't think so because she's been in heat recently. She became a fattie because she was TAKEN CARE OF. I've had her on basically just browse and hay for weeks, with a hadnful of grain here and there. I wish I had gotten a last photo of her feet! A month ago compared to today you'd probably say NO WAY NOT THE SAME FEET! 

I did get a little more than what I paid for her, and we'll use that $$ to buy another doe. We're looking into getting a few does we can breed this fall, so hopefully that will cheer us up. We are all just so sad she is gone  And our buckling has been looking for her as they were buddies. He does do well with our younger doe, and our herd queen, so he won't be lonely. 

And yep Gina, I agree, I am definitely a sucker for rescues. I don't know if I could go back to an auction like the one I bought Molly from, because I know I'd end up buying more. If it weren't for the threat of disease, I'd go and snatch some up and nurse them back to health and find them good homes. unfortunately I don't have the land for that kind of isolation.....one day  Lots of animals go to auction for a reason, I know, but some really do deserve another chance. Molly turned out to be a real nice looking doe, and it wasn't hard getting her back in shape as far as $$ goes. Just time, learning, and staying on top of things. 

BTW, we haven't had a foot rot issue in weeks thanks to the hot dry weather!


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

Bumping this topic back up for a new member to find. We are supposed to have pop up thunderstorms all week. :sigh: Good thing I have all the supplies I need. :greengrin: 

Baa Baa was limping real bad this weekend. We caught him and his hoof looked fine. His gland was blocked on both front feet. Hubby had never seen me unclog them before. (he didn't know they had a gland) It smells weird but he was walking fine the next day. I have never had this problem with Moose. :shrug: 

Gina


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