# What Would You Like to See Changed?



## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

Inspiration for this thread comes from a Facebook post asking folks what they would like to see changed in their breeds.

I thought I would start this thread as a friendly discussion about what people think should be improved/brought back in their breeds. After SGCH Tempo Aquila Living Free 1*M LA 95 EEEE set a new high for LA scores, there was quite a long and interesting discussion.


So, for my Alpines:

- less emphasis on size
- a better balance with milk/show animals
- more of the "old" type brought back - smaller, more compact animals with the classic dished faces, ect.
- better feet and legs


There are several more, but I've temporarily forgotten them. 

So, what do y'all think?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

For Nigerians:

-nicer rumps
-nicer legs
-better teat placement
-stronger medials

I think overall, off the top of my head, those are the main conformation struggles I see within the Nigerian breed.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

The Alpine breed as a whole needs more correct feet and legs, and more depth of body. There are some herds out there that need to work on udder structure and production, but overall legs and shallow bodies are the biggest two.


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

I agree, Lacie. Not that my does are the best, of course, but I have started seeing more heavy producers with really bad attachments.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

They might not start out that way. Improper management can weaken attachments, but good genetics and proper handling can avoid that. My coming 9yr old still has strong attachments for her age.


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

Definitely true!


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I guess my changes would be mainly for dairy goats in general.

-Parasite resistance
-Easier kiddings
-Overall health
-Less emphasis on flat rumps

As far as alpine conformation goes, (and I love, love, love Lauren's doe BTW) I'd like to see 
-Better feet
-More compact (Though not smaller. I like big) 
This last one may not be as widespread yet, but 
-Less MSL. I don't know if you know what I mean, so I'll post a picture. Shining Moon X-rated seems to be the buck who is spreading this far and wide, and oh do I hate it. https://stevepopephotography.smugmug.com/ADGA/Year-2012-All/2012-National-Show/2012-Bice/i-PXNwPHS/A


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Can I have quieter Nigerians? ;-)


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

Ranger1 said:


> As far as alpine conformation goes, (and I love, love, love Lauren's doe BTW) I'd like to see
> -Better feet
> -More compact (Though not smaller. I like big)
> This last one may not be as widespread yet, but
> -Less MSL. I don't know if you know what I mean, so I'll post a picture. Shining Moon X-rated seems to be the buck who is spreading this far and wide, and oh do I hate it. https://stevepopephotography.smugmug.com/ADGA/Year-2012-All/2012-National-Show/2012-Bice/i-PXNwPHS/A


I am not quite as fond of X-Rated daughters either, although many of them are gorgeous conformation wise. 

:ROFL: groovyoldlady, I love that. :lol:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

[No message]


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

I agree with Kylee!

I know I could think of some stuff to add on the subject but im so tired lol.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Nigerians
-more dairy looking rather than pygmy looking
-a little taller
-my girls fur grows out into a puff ball, id like their fur to grow out and silky


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## Emzi00 (May 3, 2013)

I think the problem with the trend of larger size is that proportions are getting messed up. A doe can be large and be correct, and a small doe can still be correct. Sodium Oaks was a good example of the latter.


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

Emzi00 said:


> I think the problem with the trend of larger size is that proportions are getting messed up. A doe can be large and be correct, and a small doe can still be correct. Sodium Oaks was a good example of the latter.


That is certainly true, but I feel like the larger trend has gotten too extreme, at least for full-sized dairy goats. I have absolutely no problem with big animals, and love them, but I have often seen smaller, definitely more correct (even to my novice eyes) place behind bigger, but less correct animals. JMHO. 

Sodium Oaks definitely had some gorgeous animals!


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I also would like to see more consistency within the Nigerian breed. We're getting there, but still have a ways to go!


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

And your herd is definitely helping things along, Kylee.  If I had NDs, I'd buy from you in a heartbeat! Even now, I spend a good half-hour per week drooling over your does and bucks. :lol:


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

I don't want Nigerians to get any bigger,even a little bit bigger! No no no!!! I'm 4'10 (it runs in the family my grandma is a short and small Indian lady :lol I could not handle them if they got any bigger! I have trouble enough already. Though I think they try to behaved, the little scamps!! :slapfloor:


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

MoonShadow said:


> I don't want Nigerians to get any bigger,even a little bit bigger! No no no!!! I'm 4'10 (it runs in the family my grandma is a short and small Indian lady :lol I could not handle them if they got any bigger! I have trouble enough already. Though I think they try to behaved, the little scamps!! :slapfloor:


LOL! I'm almost six feet, so my problem is that I'm too tall. :lol:


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I agree with Nigerians looking more dairy instead of pygmy!! Especially in my area.


Also, a pet peeve of mine is how many people breed nigies for blue eyes. I mean, it works because they're in high demand, but it's sad to me. So many blue eyed, registered does with poor attachments and posty legs that are sold for twice as much as a really nice, high milking brown eyed doe that maybe isn't as flashy as people want. 

I don't know if this is just regional too, but here in Arkansas it seems like no one has any idea what to look for confirmation wise so no one is breeding up. Lots of NDs with posty legs, splayed teats, and definitely none that I've seen that have a great topline.


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

deerbunnyfarm said:


> Also, a pet peeve of mine is how many people breed nigies for blue eyes. I mean, it works because they're in high demand, but it's sad to me. So many blue eyed, registered does with poor attachments and posty legs that are sold for twice as much as a really nice, high milking brown eyed doe that maybe isn't as flashy as people want.


Definitely agree with this, not just in the ND breed but in most, if not all. So many people breed for color, because it is so marketable, and don't think about the conformation of the animal. Color is definitely a bonus for me, but if it is between conformation and color I will always pick the former.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

deerbunnyfarm, yes they have to look more dairy, my mom's friend from work just bought a couple baby goats and besides the fact that the farm they bought the babies from had no idea what they were doing, be cause of all the different types of NDs ive seen recently I couldnt tell if it was a pygmy or ND and THAT'S A PROBLEM. And yes I agree if people are going to be breeding registered NDs then I wish they would breed for quality not quantity. An old friend of mine said to shop for goats as if you were color blind.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

thegoatgirl said:


> Inspiration for this thread comes from a Facebook post asking folks what they would like to see changed in their breeds.
> 
> I thought I would start this thread as a friendly discussion about what people think should be improved/brought back in their breeds. After SGCH Tempo Aquila Living Free 1*M LA 95 EEEE set a new high for LA scores, there was quite a long and interesting discussion.
> 
> ...


All of this!

I feel like they are giant now and fall apart by 4 or sooner...


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

thegoatgirl said:


> Definitely agree with this, not just in the ND breed but in most, if not all. So many people breed for color, because it is so marketable, and don't think about the conformation of the animal. Color is definitely a bonus for me, but if it is between conformation and color I will always pick the former.


I agree with both of you!! I have a little buckskin Nigi doe I didn't even know had golden/brown eyes till about a day after I brought her home, I was so busy looking at her health and conformation that I didn't even notice she had brown eyes(not that I cared in the first place). No matter what color eyes they have or how many moon spots or pretty colors they posses, I will never jack up the price because of those quality's my prices will always reflect the overall conformation of the animal , its parents, ancestor and scores. I know some people charge more and that cool but I'd rather take the emphasis off color (not that I don't like color because trust me I do, its for sure the icing on the cake) and put it on conformation and things like that. 
Haha but lucky enough for me I can head on down to KW farm and pick up a couple goats with both color and conformation. . . eventually. . . I'm going to need another buck in a year or two and maybe a few does before then LOL! (;


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

nicolemackenzie said:


> I feel like they are giant now and fall apart by 4 or sooner...


I respectfully disagree with this. While they are breeding for larger stature, they certainly are not falling apart by the time they are 4 or sooner, at least not any herd I have seen.
I know many, many does that are 7+ and they are still looking as good as they ever did. I know a 13 year old doe who is still kidding like a champ and would still be winning in the ring if she were shown today. 
A structurally sound animal will most definitely not fall apart by the time they are 3 or 4, they haven't even reached their prime by then. By the time they are 4 they are finally done growing and they continue to deepen and mature after that. A good and sound goat should easily live and be productive until they are 10 or more. 
If they still look great by the time they are 10 then they aren't good because they're old, they're old because they're good.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I respectfully disagree with this. While they are breeding for larger stature, they certainly are not falling apart by the time they are 4 or sooner, at least not any herd I have seen.
> I know many, many does that are 7+ and they are still looking as good as they ever did. I know a 13 year old doe who is still kidding like a champ and would still be winning in the ring if she were shown today.
> A structurally sound animal will most definitely not fall apart by the time they are 3 or 4, they haven't even reached their prime by then. By the time they are 4 they are finally done growing and they continue to deepen and mature after that. A good and sound goat should easily live and be productive until they are 10 or more.
> If they still look great by the time they are 10 then they aren't good because they're old, they're old because they're good.


Yes they should last that long. 4 may be a slight exaggeration but I'm seeing a trend that breeds for does that grow fast and do not last. Which I think is a problem.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I think the falling apart quick thing is a big problem in the Saanen breed with in some lines. So much was put into milk genes and almost nothing into structure.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I would like to see goats being bred back to their original hardy beginnings. Some herds are are made of spun glad now days and would die of pneumonia from a single raindrop :lol:
Their main purpose is a low maintenance livestock for poor land and poor owners. They've been bred way away from that ideal and are now the highest maintenance, most expensive livestock to keep. They've lost their hardiness, their parasite resistance, and their food conversion abilities. Not in all herds of course but, in way too many.


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

goathiker said:


> I would like to see goats being bred back to their original hardy beginnings. Some herds are are made of spun glass now days and would die of pneumonia from a single raindrop :lol:


I readily admit that at least one of my does is like this.  Of course, it doesn't help when I spoil them rotten.

nicolemackenzie, yes, I have started seeing more of that lately as well. There are plenty of herds who have large does with excellent production and good conformation (Lacie has one of those  ), and I really respect the effort the breeder puts into breeding and maintaining these does. But I have seen other herds where mammary systems are very weak and feet and legs are wince-worthy. Usually, these are the breeders that care only about production, and while I have nothing against high-producing does, if they are not correct enough to carry their mammary system through multiple lactations I would prefer not to have the high milk yield. Not sure if that made any sense. :lol:


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

makes total sense, its like people no a days got lazy with breeding. They breed for fast production and once they stop producing they got sold or slaughtered


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

Goatzrule said:


> makes total sense, its like people no a days got lazy with breeding. They breed for fast production and once they stop producing they got sold or slaughtered


Most breeders are trying to better the breed, but there will always be a few that are just trying to do it for profit - not that it shouldn't be a goal if you are running a business, but the health and quality of the animal should come first, IMHO. 
I am very lucky, all the breeders around here are extremely helpful and kind - we're all one big family!


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## cybercat (Oct 18, 2007)

La Manchas are going threw same issues as Alpines. LM are supposed to be a Medium sized breed. Not large sized like many show lines. Even the judges are commendation on it now from what I have been told. 

I think the breeds need to be more distinct in of themselves and not cookie cutter copies with breed heads on them.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Resistance to worms is a huge thing. I wish that the breed registries would help in that way by keeping data on it somehow, maybe in conjunction with some research ag colleges.

As has been mentioned, breeding for color is a huge problem. As the saying with horses goes, there is no such thing as bad color on a good horse...or bad color on a good goat (or good color on a bad goat!)

Up here there are so many moon spotted goats being used for breeding that should not be. They are horrible, poster children for defects and poor conformation! But because they are wildly colored, they sell for huge prices only to duplicate the faults and defects in their offspring, who will repeat the process because they are colored!

Another issue I see up here with Lamanchas are types. There seem to be 2 types- the taller, more sleekly dairy animals and the smaller, more heavier type, almost a dual purpose. Some judges love the sleeker models, while other judges go for the heavier, shorter heavier ones.


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

cybercat said:


> La Manchas are going threw same issues as Alpines. LM are supposed to be a Medium sized breed. Not large sized like many show lines. Even the judges are commendation on it now from what I have been told.
> 
> I think the breeds need to be more distinct in of themselves and not cookie cutter copies with breed heads on them.


I could definitely see that, although I have not kept up with the La Mancha breed as much lately. 
Although, I am not so sure about each breed looking distinct body-wise, especially the Swiss breeds - Obers, Saanens, Alpines, Toggs. Although there are type differences between them, and Toggs/Obers seem to naturally run smaller, I think the over-all build, if they have good conformation, should be roughly the same. One thing I would like to see changed in many breeds is teat size - so many are big nowadays, and for those of us who still hand-milk, palm-sized teats and good expression is critical.

But, everyone has a different opinion, and I definitely respect that.


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

lottsagoats1 said:


> Resistance to worms is a huge thing. I wish that the breed registries would help in that way by keeping data on it somehow, maybe in conjunction with some research ag colleges.


That is a good idea!  I would love to see a long-term study, as well...


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

With Nigerian Dwarves ... more emphasis on them as a productive, healthy dairy goat, not just a pet-maker. I think the best Nigerians are ones that can kid well, milk well for their size, and are healthy.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

My two Nigerians are also very hardy. Berry revs up his little engine and hits the creek at full speed throwing rooster tails 10 feet in all directions. There's not a day this winter that both those little things haven't been across the creek in the back grazing. There hasn't been a sniffle or a cough out of them.


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

ThreeHavens said:


> With Nigerian Dwarves ... more emphasis on them as a productive, healthy dairy goat, not just a pet-maker. I think the best Nigerians are ones that can kid well, milk well for their size, and are healthy.


Yes!


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I worry about genetic diversity in the Lamacha breed. It seems that there are very few lines that do well in the ring.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

with NDs you have two totally different types. In my herd I buy from one breeder who has long, tall, and thin. or someone else has wide, deep and short. And you go to a show and there is no consistency. Every breeder is breeding for a different type a judge doesn't know what to pick. No matter what the breeder with the opposite type will get mad and say the judge was favoring that one type.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Pygmy
-longer bodied 
-easier kidding 
-less stifle issues 
-straighter front legs 
-more level top lines


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

Goatzrule said:


> with NDs you have two totally different types..


Alpines are often like this as well. A lot of the old French lines seem to be stockier, with slightly less extreme dairy character and different mammary system types. I have been trying to regain this type in my herd, starting with a granddaughter of SG ++*B Goodwoods James with some Sunshine and Nixon's genetics as well. 
Her dam's line goes directly back to the Iron-Rod animals, but as she is maturing I am seeing more influence from her sire's side. I hope to cross her over with my "uber-dairy" genetics for kids with the best of both types.


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