# How Much space do Nigies need?



## Ellie L. F. (Nov 18, 2018)

I apologize if this information is already somewhere else on the site, and I failed to find it. 

I'm trying to plan a yard and shelter for two pet Nigerian dwarf wethers and need to know the space requirements. (It's legal I checked.)
I don't have other pets or kids currently, So I can easily shower them with attention, lots of play time, trick training, walking, hikes ect. And I'll give them plenty of things to keep them entertained while I'm away too.
I live the Colorado mountains where it is very dry, and the winters are really cold. 
I'm not sure how high the fence should be, but we do have a bears in the area, and sooo many wondering off leash dogs. 
Suggestions?

Also when walking the goats on a leash, would a dog whistle keep off leash dogs at bay? I could carry mace too for just in case. But still I'd like to scare off the dogs long before I have to mace them. Has anyone had trouble with this sort of thing?

I'd like to take the goats to visit the old folks home nearby, but figured it wouldn't do to have them peeing and pooing on the floor. Is it possible to train them not to go inside, so long as the visits are short? Has anyone tried this before?

Thanks for any help.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Ellie L. F. said:


> I'm trying to plan a yard and shelter for two pet Nigerian dwarf wethers and need to know the space requirements. (It's legal I checked.)
> I don't have other pets or kids currently, So I can easily shower them with attention, lots of play time, trick training, walking, hikes ect. And I'll give them plenty of things to keep them entertained while I'm away too.


Sounds great! On average, Nigerian Dwarf goats require 250 square feet PER GOAT. You will need a good shelter, Do you have the space (or budget) for a high quality shed/mini barn?



Ellie L. F. said:


> I live the Colorado mountains where it is very dry, and the winters are really cold.
> I'm not sure how high the fence should be, but we do have a bears in the area, and sooo many wondering off leash dogs.
> Suggestions?


6 feet is my go-to.



Ellie L. F. said:


> Also when walking the goats on a leash, would a dog whistle keep off leash dogs at bay? I could carry mace too for just in case. But still I'd like to scare off the dogs long before I have to mace them. Has anyone had trouble with this sort of thing?


Goats don't love walking on leashes. It takes a lot of training -- just be prepared for that, they are not dogs. I would try to walk goats in areas where no dogs are present. This just doesn't sound safe enough for me to want to expose my goats to. A dog will gladly taunt your goats, even if they don't attack or come too close. NOT A GOOD IDEA.



Ellie L. F. said:


> I'd like to take the goats to visit the old folks home nearby, but figured it wouldn't do to have them peeing and pooing on the floor. Is it possible to train them not to go inside, so long as the visits are short? Has anyone tried this before?


Goats poop constantly. And while they are fairly good about where they pee, they will go anywhere when scared -- which they will be when taken to a new place. There is no way to train them to not go inside, or to keep it nearly quick enough. You would have to diaper them.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Also, quick suggestion -- if you want therapy pets, get bottle babies. They will make all training MUCH easier.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

i agree above - 
I would carry mace or a tazer. In our county there is a leash law for dogs..I carry a gun normally everywhere i go so i am not above shooting a dog.

But I walk Clyde on a leash in our back yard and up the mountain staying away from other animals beside mine or the deer.

To me, you have to earn the respect and trust of a goat. Once they do, they love you similar to a dog. Clyde always calls out to me and bonnie to when i get home. He's come to the fence to greet me since he was a buckling of 2 months old. But we bottle fed him and bonnie from 7 days and 9 days old. So they know us. 

Bonnie free roams when we walk and never strays to far, but I protect them from predators.


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## Ellie L. F. (Nov 18, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Also, quick suggestion -- if you want therapy pets, get bottle babies. They will make all training MUCH easier.


Thanks for all the suggestions and honest answers. Perhaps visiting the old folks isn't in the cards, not unless they want to bring the old folks outside. lol. If I get goats, I'm getting bottle babies for sure. I'm still trying to decide between goats and a dog. I'm not the biggest fan of most dogs, and I'd like goat poop for compost. I have at least 900 square feet of space, but the shed is tricky for sure, I'm worried about how cold it gets here.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

After you train the goats, they will gladly go by leash. People regularly hoke and back pack with goats on a leash. Some back packing areas have leash laws for all animals.
I live in the deep south and have abundant almost year round green in my yard, my 9 goats cannot subsist on 1/2 acre. Outside foraging and hay feeding is required for them. 
I do not know how to keep dogs away, leash laws here. BB gun works good while at home.


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## Ellie L. F. (Nov 18, 2018)

MadCatX said:


> i agree above -
> I would carry mace or a tazer. In our county there is a leash law for dogs..I carry a gun normally everywhere i go so i am not above shooting a dog.
> 
> But I walk Clyde on a leash in our back yard and up the mountain staying away from other animals beside mine or the deer.
> ...


They have signs all over the place about keeping dogs on leashes. But there's so many people around here who ignore them. There's a lot of places nearby we can go to that are quiet, But I still worry about running into someone's dog and I don't want to stress out our goats unnecessarily. Ugh! I get that dogs are cute, but I wish people would just walk them on a leash!


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## Ellie L. F. (Nov 18, 2018)

Dwarf Dad said:


> After you train the goats, they will gladly go by leash. People regularly hoke and back pack with goats on a leash. Some back packing areas have leash laws for all animals.
> I live in the deep south and have abundant almost year round green in my yard, my 9 goats cannot subsist on 1/2 acre. Outside foraging and hay feeding is required for them.
> I do not know how to keep dogs away, leash laws here. BB gun works good while at home.


My cousin has pack goats, so maybe I can ask him about good places to go? I thinking taking them out would be a lot of fun so long as it's safe. 
I would not be able to depend on the grass for them, I would have to feed them hay for sure, No matter how big their area was, grass does not grow well out here. 
Yeah, we have laws, but no one follows them. BB gun isn't a bad idea though.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

They will need good quality hay. They don’t love grass much. With your temperatures they definitely need shelter. A barn or very well made 3 sided structure could work. But a shed is your best bet with your temps, even for two wethers.

With all due respect — dogs are great. Maybe........????? While goats can be trained, it seems you are trying to replace dogs with them. They don’t replace dogs. I speak from experience. They are wonderful amazing creatures. But if you want a “dog” get a dog.

Maybe a pig. Pot belly’s are better dogs than dogs. And they can live indoors.

Just a thought! You do you though! I’ll help in any way I can.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

yeah people dont respect leash laws until you take a dog out or it bites someone.

@Damfino has her geughts visiting older folks..I think she has a post around here. that said..her goats are extremely well trained


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I think goats are very easy to leash train. I've trained many of them! We teach all our kids to walk on leashes when they are young, and I don't know how I'd manage my big pack wethers without leashes! 

I too live in the mountains of Colorado and our dry, cool climate is excellent for keeping goats. We have far fewer parasite and hoof problems than warm, humid areas. My goats live in PolyDome calf hutches year round. I face the door away from the prevailing wind and bed them down with straw. I have Alpine/Nubian crosses and my goats stay plenty warm enough in the winter. Nigerian dwarfs generally have thicker coats and more body fat than the large dairy breeds, so staying warm enough in winter should be no problem for your boys. 

Dog Dazers and pepper spray both have good reviews from other folks, but I've never personally had to use either one myself. Keeping your goats on a leash is the best way to prevent an accident because then a dog can't chase your goats away from you. 

I did take my goats to a nursing home a couple months ago, but we were outside. Mine aren't potty trained, but I think it could be done with patience and dedication. I know some people have. I have some goats that naturally refuse go to the bathroom indoors and others that let loose whenever they feel like it. 

Goats are wonderful creatures and a lot more pleasant than dogs in my opinion. Like you, I'm not a huge fan of dogs as pets. They always stink, I find most of them annoying, and they are horrible to clean up after. Goats are where it's at!


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## Ellie L. F. (Nov 18, 2018)

Damfino said:


> I think goats are very easy to leash train. I've trained many of them! We teach all our kids to walk on leashes when they are young, and I don't know how I'd manage my big pack wethers without leashes!
> 
> I too live in the mountains of Colorado and our dry, cool climate is excellent for keeping goats. We have far fewer parasite and hoof problems than warm, humid areas. My goats live in PolyDome calf hutches year round. I face the door away from the prevailing wind and bed them down with straw. I have Alpine/Nubian crosses and my goats stay plenty warm enough in the winter. Nigerian dwarfs generally have thicker coats and more body fat than the large dairy breeds, so staying warm enough in winter should be no problem for your boys.
> 
> ...


Sweet thanks for all the info!
I'm so happy to know that Colorado is a good place for them. I've been kind of worried that they'd be miserable in winter, but there's a lot of people keeping goats around here, so they must handle it well enough. 
I like little dogs okay, but I think they're overrated.

We'll see though, I'm going to have to check in with my new neighbors and see if they're okay with it. They have a little girl who might like little goat buddies to play with, but still i don't want to have them complain after I've already gotten them.


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## Ellie L. F. (Nov 18, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> They will need good quality hay. They don't love grass much. With your temperatures they definitely need shelter. A barn or very well made 3 sided structure could work. But a shed is your best bet with your temps, even for two wethers.
> 
> With all due respect - dogs are great. Maybe........????? While goats can be trained, it seems you are trying to replace dogs with them. They don't replace dogs. I speak from experience. They are wonderful amazing creatures. But if you want a "dog" get a dog.
> 
> ...


No worries, I see where you're coming from. And I don't want to be that person that gets goats then changes their mind about them. That's why I ask these questions.
I've been leaning towards goats for a lot of reasons, but I also realize that they're going to be outside pets, and that they're going to be really different. 
I have an anxiety disorder that a lot of dogs set off. Small, well trained, quiet dogs work okay with me. But I prefer gentle animals that can calm me down, horses, rabbits, ferrets. I don't think I'm trying to replace any one type of animal for another as much as figure out what kind of animal will work with me in my situation, and which kind of animal I can keep happy and healthy. I'll investigate pigs for sure, but I'd always heard that they're a really difficult pet to keep?


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## Ellie L. F. (Nov 18, 2018)

MadCatX said:


> yeah people dont respect leash laws until you take a dog out or it bites someone.
> 
> @Damfino has her geughts visiting older folks..I think she has a post around here. that said..her goats are extremely well trained


It drives me crazy! So many times I've had growling aggressive dogs come right up to me and the owners are 10 feet away shouting that it's friendly. I need to get in touch with the guy who walks his llamas around town, bet the dogs don't want to mess with them.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Goats make great pets. They are easily leash trained. Some people got wethers from us and walked them all through their neighborhood.
They (Lenny and Squiggy) are brothers and have their own facebook page.
"Suburban Goats"


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Ellie L. F. said:


> It drives me crazy! So many times I've had growling aggressive dogs come right up to me and the owners are 10 feet away shouting that it's friendly. I need to get in touch with the guy who walks his llamas around town, bet the dogs don't want to mess with them.


If the owner has to tell you the dog is friendly, it probably isn't.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Yeah, I dont have much tolerance for dogs. They are great animals but when not properly raised they can be a problem. I sort of take on the roll of protector to my goats and animals. The goats are prey animals to they trust me to keep them safe. Clyde got spooked by deer a couple of weeks back and he bolted towards me eyes wide, high gear, ran right behind me and looked..then did the.."mett ett et et".lol


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

I leash trained my 2 pygora wethers Elvis & Oliver starting at 4 months old. @Damfino has a thread on here about it I believe? I started by walking them in their enclosure instead of taking them out right way. That way they got used to having a collar on and the stop or go of the leash pressure. They only have a collar on when on a leash. When they start pulling and trying to get away don't panic, they quickly learn to relax. My tip would be don't rush it have patience and hold firmly and calmly while using voice commands. I didn't yank or tug or try and do it overnight. Now I can leash Elvis only and Oliver stays very close without a leash. Elvis is the lead goat so Oliver won't go away from him at all. Now we walk our woods and field without leashes but I carry one in case I need it. I trained them to follow me when I smack my side and say "come on boys come on" and they hustle right along with me. But I started by doing this on leash. I walk them every day because the repetition is key. The more education you have on all of this the more successful you'll be! It sounds like your heart is in it and I wish you the best of luck!


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

Also leash training has come in handy when hoof trimming and trimming their coats. They both have separate spots in the barn where I hook them up and tend to each of their needs. Since they aren’t used to it they don’t tug or try and get away. I never leave them on a leash when I’m not present. When done I take their collars off give them a treat. It’s made life easier instead of one trying to ram the other one while I’m trimming or clipping coats.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Mine are similar to Elvis and Oliver, they sort of do the same thing with Clyde being lead.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Mine are leash trained, know and respond to several simple verbal commands and have learned through repetition what is required of them. I am amazed at their ability to learn different types of things and how they are almost effortless to care for now that they have fully learned the various routines involved with caring for them. Granted, they aren't taken out amongst the public, aren't exposed to traffic or to any dogs on purpose, (I have 2 dogs of my own and they are kept 100% away from the goats) or taken for rides in a vehicle or trailer unless absolutely necessary. Their lifestyle is different than, as an example, a pack goat or companion animal. I have 1 goat among 3 that would possibly come close to having the temperament and disposition required for a companion goat living in that type of setting. The other 2 would suffer from the additional stresses that environment entailed. The personalities of those 2 just aren't geared for city living and I am very uncertain whether training or exposure would change their natural tendencies. I could be wrong in this evaluation, though pushing them or any other animal beyond their abilities to effectively cope is something I wouldn't want to do intentionally or not on a continual basis.

Temperament, disposition and personality would be a larger consideration than anything else from my viewpoint when considering choosing goats as a companion animal. They are foremost a prey animal and feel threatened by more things than could possibly be realized until their reactions can be seen first hand. Usually, they will try to bolt away from something that scares them and depending on the individual goat, those scary situations and the reactions towards them will more than likely be different with one compared to the other. Since they are also herd animals, they tend to take their cue from the behavior they see displayed by the other goats. Sort of like, monkey see monkey do. 

I think it is possible to raise goats to be a companion animal though it would require far more dedication, experience with training animals, a knowledge of goat behavior, guidance and patience than simply leash training alone.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> I am very uncertain whether training or exposure would change their natural tendencies.


I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at how training and exposure can totally change an animal's natural tendencies! I started out training horses, which are flight creatures par excellence. Not only are they naturally afraid of most things, but they are lightning fast and extremely powerful. Yet with good, regular training they can become bold enough to face just about anything.

Goats are really no different except that they more readily bond to humans. If my horses panic, they usually run away (to the barn, the trailer, other horses, etc.). If my goats panic they run to me. My husband and I taught our goats to pull a wagon and we drive them in parades and down busy streets with traffic, sirens, barking dogs, crying babies, bicycles, etc. We started out on quiet back roads and quickly progressed to busier streets, working our way up to the day we entered our first parade only 2-3 weeks after our very first drive. I could never trust a team of horses to go in a parade after only a couple of weeks in harness!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

For shelter, consider a Dogloo large enough for the 2 of them. That can be so much warmer than a shed, because it is small enough for their body heat to keep warm easily. And vaccinate them for pneumonia. 

In the Winter, do not take them inside, like at the nursing home, because that change in temperature of living outside and having to be inside in the heat, can set them up for pnuemonia. Save the visits for the other 3 seasons.

So you'd want bottle babies, and you'd want them to be brothers, or sisters, so they'll want to cuddle with one another, And you'll want to train them to the leash and use the leash with regularity so the goats learn it is normal. Goats HATE things that are unusual.

I don't see any problems here.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Damfino said:


> I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at how training and exposure can totally change an animal's natural tendencies! I started out training horses, which are flight creatures par excellence. Not only are they naturally afraid of most things, but they are lightning fast and extremely powerful. Yet with good, regular training they can become bold enough to face just about anything.
> 
> Goats are really no different except that they more readily bond to humans. If my horses panic, they usually run away (to the barn, the trailer, other horses, etc.). If my goats panic they run to me. My husband and I taught our goats to pull a wagon and we drive them in parades and down busy streets with traffic, sirens, barking dogs, crying babies, bicycles, etc. We started out on quiet back roads and quickly progressed to busier streets, working our way up to the day we entered our first parade only 2-3 weeks after our very first drive. I could never trust a team of horses to go in a parade after only a couple of weeks in harness!


Thank you Damfino, that is encouraging to hear it is possible to change natural tendencies with goats as well. I've used exposure desensitization successfully with dogs. Learning those subtle goat body languages and behaviors has been new for me. Yes, either mine run towards their dry lot/shelter area when frightened or call out in distress for me to come to them when out to pasture.

I highly admire your training abilities with goats. Through your post, I've seen the possibilities of ways a goats can be trained. I have a background with training dogs and have a foundation of techniques that sometimes can be crossed over towards teaching the goats. Absolutely, it is a step by step process to obtaining the end results.

Guilty of having read posts about how stress can be detrimental to their health and try to minimize their exposure as much as possible. Dogs scare my goats tremendously, natural tendencies. My dogs haven't been raised with goats and even though the dogs are well behaved and obedient, one has a strong prey drive that has to be reigned in once in a blue moon. Twice, my goats have been subjected to unknown errant dogs chasing them down the fence line, digging under the fence and also attempts to climb or jump over the top. Would desensitization with random dogs that aren't LGD cause them to be trusting of most dogs in general?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Stress IS detrimental to any animal's health, which is why training is so important. Training helps your animals cope with stress and control their own emotions and reactions. Allowing an animal to act on instinct and flee when he's frightened only reinforces his own fear until it's easy for him to start stressing himself out over smaller and smaller things. Eventually your animal becomes a basket case and you are just as frightened because you fear what he will do. 

My first goat was chased off a 30-foot cliff by a loose dog and he survived but lost one of his horns in the fall. He was terrified of dogs for the rest of his life but with training we were able to teach him to control his reactions when he was with us. He was an excellent packgoat for 12 years after the dog incident, but we always made sure he was leashed if we saw a dog coming along the trail. When he was on his leash he felt secure because he knew we would protect him, but we usually had to stop and let the dog pass us because he would not pass a dog. 

Last year I took my current young packgoats with me on a trip to the "Big City". I spent all day walking them around Kansas City, MO while my husband was busy at a conference. I had a leash in each hand and a huge goat on the end of each. We must have gone over eight miles that day on the crowded pedestrian/biking trails. I had to laugh when one lady's "huge" Rottweiler (which looked puny next to my boys) almost pulled her off her feet in his excitement to get to my goats. But when he reached them, my boys stalked by, hackles raised, without breaking stride and simply stared that dog down as we passed. The dog went from raging beast to cowering mush pile in a matter of seconds, and he slunk by with his tail between his legs while my boys barely gave him a backward glance. It was a proud moment because it was proof that our training and preparation had paid off. 

That said, I spent a good deal of time reflecting during our walk that day. When those goats were yearlings I could never have handled them on such an excursion. They would have worn me out in a few minutes with their incessant crisscrossing, balking, bolting, straining, spooking, grabbing at every tasty leaf, and squabbling over every smashed potato chip on the sidewalk. It would have been a nightmare and I wouldn't have been able to feel my arms after half an hour. No goat is a "natural" at dealing with all the crazy stimuli we throw at them, but all of them have the capacity to be trained to handle it if we take the time to introduce them after we've taught them basic obedience at home. The beauty of teaching commands (like giving to pressure on the halter, or "whoa" and "walk on") is that these become a comfort during frightening situations. The goat doesn't know what to do when faced with a frightening situation, so you give him a direct, simple command to follow which, if he has learned it well, gets his mind off the problem and back on you.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Thank you, I fully understand what you have taken the time to explain. Building up their confidence through trust and training as a coping ability towards being more prepared to handle potential adverse situations is something I have done with dogs and to some degree with the Monks (wether herd). I will continue to work more intensely on building their confidence, will spend more time getting them accustomed to new surroundings and dedicate myself to more blocks of time for fine tuning their leash training using verbal commands. From there, branch them out a little more over time.

Cuzco was the one that went over the cliff? I am a big fan of him and Sputnik. They have been sort of an inspiration for me attempting to teach and train my goats. Through your threads, I have witnessed it is possible. (thumbup)


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Damfino is one Dm Fine Owner.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

:up: I second that.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

:up: I third that


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Cuzco was the one that went over the cliff? I am a big fan of him and Sputnik. They have been sort of an inspiration for me attempting to teach and train my goats. Through your threads, I have witnessed it is possible. (thumbup)


Aw, that's very nice. And yes, Cuzco is the one that dove over a cliff and became my "One-Horned Wonder Goat". I used to get frustrated with Finn and Sputnik, thinking they would _never_ learn to have good manners. It was a constant battle to keep them from passing us on the trail, cutting switchbacks, make them behave on the leash, not bash us with their horns, etc. I had gotten used to Cuzco and his good manners for years and I'd forgotten what it was like to train a newbie (let alone TWO of them!). I would despair that we would never make progress with Finn and Sputnik, but we kept at it and then one day, lo and behold, I realize that I have not actually noticed them for an entire hike! With training it often seems like we make no progress for months, then one day we look back and suddenly realize that we've actually come a very long way.


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