# An Avalon and Bam Bam update



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Lets keep it friendly this time 

Both horses are doing well!

Bam Bam has been on HEAVY antibiotics for 7 days now with his last a/bs to be given tomorrow morning. On bute for a couple days but he hated it so we gave up on that pretty quickly. Continuing the poulticing and soaking in epsom salts. We have seen a huge improvement - last saturday he was hopping along on three legs - he now placed the foot flat on the ground and walks on it - though still quite a decent limp. I have to stop in at the vets this afternoon to have a chat with her and see if she wants to move on to the next step which is x rays. 

Avalon is doing better although I havent done a lot of work with her due to nursing Bam Bam. Still we have had some good sessions. Took a brush out and she just melted, loves being brushed. So we now start and finish our sessions with a good brushing. Last Sunday I took a towel out with me and threw it over her back like a saddle blanket. I also draped it all over her head, neck, bum etc and like everything she was a bit nervous at first but after a few minutes she was totally fine with it. Yesterday I held her front foot up for about 4 - 5 seconds, and did that twice. So - progress - just very slow progress :hammer:My friend Anna came out last night to meet her, and walked right up to her in the paddock and Avs let her rub all over her head, which she certainly would not have done a few weeks ago :clap: yay Avs! such a brave girl. Course the carrots probably helped lol. 

My other friend Kyla who is taking on Bam Bam came out last Sunday, and she was so impressed with the change in Avs. She said she is a completely different horse to when she last saw her. She said she is so much more relaxed and totally focused on me, when last time she was very nervous and looking at everything else instead of me. 

She is getting so much better at just standing still next to me. I just tell her to lower her head and she 'switches off' and just stands there. 

I tried an experiment, getting Kyla to pick up her feet while I held her and reassured her, and it was a no go. Not gonna happen says Avs. I had hoped that if we could do that, I could get a farrier but nope, she only trusts me to handle her legs at the moment. 

Going to be doing another experiment on the weekend. As we find out more about the back story of these horses, it seems Avs was abused by a man, and she has been terrified of men ever since. Apparently she has never allowed any of the male farm hands to get near her. She wasnt even too keen on women coming near her when we started this whole thing. She's getting a lot better though learning that people (females) she doesnt know arent necessarily going to hurt her, so this weekend I am going to try to introduce her to a man and see how she goes. My friend Shaggy cant wait to meet her since hearing I got a horse, he used to train racehorses when he was younger. So he is happy to be my guinea pig to see how she will take to meeting a man. He is not a big guy and quite softly spoken so hopefully doesnt seem too threatening. If she's good with him we can move on to my hubby who is a big tough guy 

Its really important to me that she learns to react favourably around strangers, as she has bonded so well to me I can see it becoming somewhat of an issue. She beat the crap out of the bay mare (who we named Princess) because she came walking over to me. she is very protective of me which I obviously need to nip in the bud. I obviously also need to her learn to stay calm when being examined by vet/dentist/farrier or just if I go away and someone else looks after the critters. 

Interesting the more backstory we seem to be uncovering about these horses. Apparently my vet was actually called to stitch up Avs' head injury when it happened, but she refused because the 'owners' were known to be bad debtors, had vet bills racked up with several clinics in the area, and were not going to be there to pay up front. Also rumor has it that the injury was caused by a sledgehammer or star picket to her head. Who knows if that is true or not though, its just what the rumor mill is saying. Also apparently someone tried to steal Bam a little while ago but must not have been able to get him on the float - next day all the horses were stirred up, he was wearing a headcollar when he previously wasnt, and there were tyre marks in the paddock. 

Princess (bay TB mare) was supposed to go to her new home yesterday - but when her new owner went to get the paddock and stable ready - she found that her flat mate had put two horses in there! Yet its an entire property that she actually owns (not the flat mate) and she only uses this one paddock, flat mate uses the rest of it. Bit rude. So anyway she needs to sort that out before bringing Princess home. Vet came to look at her infected eye and said its improving (grass seed came out) and continue bathing in salt water and hopefully avoid antibiotics, but its a nasty one, the grass seed actually punctured the cornea and may be a permanent blind spot. 

Phew what a novel! I will try to get someone to take some pictures of us working this weekend


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

That's awesome good job with Av! So glad to hear an update on them I was really wondering about them.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Pretty sure she thinks I've lost my marbles for making her do this LOL. Tomorrow we will be repeating it with a tarp.

Good news again about Bam, spoke to the vet and we are taking him off antibiotics for a few days to see how he goes, continuing soaking/poulticing. She says if he stays the same or improves, all good. If he goes backwards we will go back onto antibiotics for another week.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

LOL, vets should be required to take continuing education credits from competent individuals to prevent situations like this and owners should have the money, time, and/or know-how to care for said animal or not have that animal at all. I know this information has been recommended by many on this and many other boards and forums.


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

what a great ending to a terrible life for those poor horses1 Good for you for having the patience~ shes a beautiful mare -even with the towel on her head!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is great that things are going well. Hopefully all the healing including mental/emotional will continue.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Yay! Great job on all counts! I am so glad you are going to keep giving us updates. I have been wondering how things were going.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

That's good to hear, glad you are making progress.It's sad a bad experience takes 3 times longer to 'fix' in their mind


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Thank you everyone  im so happy with them both. The change from potatoes to good pasture and minerals has been amazing. Avs has lost fat and toned muscle.. Her white is whiter and red spots brighter and her feet are shaping up even without a trim. 

Not sure what you mean onehorse, it was the MASSIVE amounts of antibiotics that tuened him around but people here were saying dont give abs. Just goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat. Also not sure about the money comment since we have invested $500 in this horse and ive already pre paid $300 for Avs to have a full vet check and her teeth done next weekend


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am glad to hear that


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

keren said:


> Thank you everyone  im so happy with them both. The change from potatoes to good pasture and minerals has been amazing. Avs has lost fat and toned muscle.. Her white is whiter and red spots brighter and her feet are shaping up even without a trim.
> 
> Not sure what you mean onehorse, it was the MASSIVE amounts of antibiotics that tuened him around but people here were saying dont give abs. Just goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat. Also not sure about the money comment since we have invested $500 in this horse and ive already pre paid $300 for Avs to have a full vet check and her teeth done next weekend


LOL, it is still very early, I definitely wouldn't say the antibiotics cured anything, as it is still brewing. And, I remember someone saying about not being able to afford a farrier to get the mare trimmed properly too.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

He was getting worse just poulticing ... Add antibiotics and he has shown dramatic improvement! To me that indicates abs worked  

I have reaaons for wanting to do her feet myself and its not because i cant afford a farrier. 

1. I know how to trim feet myself so why pay someone else to do something i am capable of. 

2. She has huge trust issues from being abused particularly when it comes to her feet. Prior to me taking her on a farrier saw her withour much success. He trimmed a bit off each front then stopped, saying he could push the issue and get it done but it would stress her too much, and it would bezt if her issues could be resolved. I agree completely. It has taken three weeks to get her to a point where i can handle her feet but she isnt up to having strangers do it yet. 

3. All the farriers around me either wont see her because she is 'difficult' or are so busy they arent taking new clients. I do have details of two willing to do her but i need to float her there. 

I have always said if she was lame i would not hesitate to have her sedated and the feet done. Since she is still getting around fine i believe continuing with our current action plan is what is best for her. Please understand that.


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## RowdyKidz (Apr 2, 2009)

Keren, not sure if you remember me or not from long ago but I think it's awesome what you have been doing for these horses! Not many folks would want to step up to the plate and take responsibility for an animal (let alone 3) that don't belong to you. Especially horses! I work at a grain mill, I know how much horse grains are!

On a slight side note, I am really bothered by a few comments about Vets... I am a Junior in HS and all my life I have admired Vets and wanted to be one. I am very well educated when it comes to livestock care, vaccines, wormings, etc. I do my own shots, treatments, wormings, kiddings, etc and I have since I was about 10 years old. Vets endure 8 years of schooling and only the top 5% make it past their pre-vet degree. Everyone has different ways of doing things, including Vets, but seriously? They went to school for 8 years, they aren't as dumb as some of you seem to think. I trust a Vet's opinion until I have ONE reason not to. Vets aren't perfect, but everyone makes mistakes. I know Vet Bills today are horrible but if my animal's have a problem that I don't know how to fix on my own, you can bet I'm willing to pay the $$ to make sure the problem is found.

Sorry, I will get off my soapbox. But seriously Keren, I totally admire you for taking in those horses! Especially in today's age, horses aren't cheap! Especially ones needing antibiotics and vet treatment!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Tara of course I remember you! Its so nice to see you back again  even if its not that often. 

yeah I agree with you re vets. Everyone complains about vets and how they could do such a better job and how they know more about horses/goat etc than their vet does but I dont reckon theres many people who could do what a vet does. They know a heap about so many different species, you cannot expect them to be an expert in every species unless you go to an equine specialist, goat specialist etc. and most people dont, they go to their GP vet and berate them for not being an expert in every animal. I've been to uni with vet students and the sheer level of content that they learn astounds me. 

My vet is great, she knows a LOT about every species and is an expert in some. She talks to me about everything she is thinking regarding a case. She asks what I have done to treat the animal already, and commends what I have done because nine times out of ten its what she would have done anyway. We have a good working relationship because she knows I will do the preliminary stuff and all the nursing and when its time to take the next step I will contact her but not hesitate and we generally get it early. She is very fair on her prices - the vet bill for Bam Bam was itemized for the consult and the antibiotics but she didnt charge me for the bute and syringes/needles. She is very conscious about keeping prices low, and will always work within a budget and try the cheapest option first. She also lets me pay the bill off if I need to - I try to do right by her and at least pay the first hundred on the spot. My first experience with this vet I lost the goat, partly because I didnt trust my instincts and convince her to do it the way I wanted to. Instead I let her convince me to keep the doe going a bit longer (she had preg tox) and I lost the doe and all the kids, and had a $300 vet bill. Do I blame my vet for this? Hell no! I know some people would never go back to that vet. But she was respectful to me, to the goat, and she really knew what she was doing and handled my doe beautifully, she did everything right and theres no telling whether we would have lost the doe even if we did it my way. Yes everyone makes mistakes. I have made lots of mistakes and learned from them. My vet does the best job she can, always gives 110%, I cannot fault her. 

Sorry for the rant. I admire many vets and look up to them. The vets I DONT like are the ones that will not listen to a goat breeder, will not try new ideas that I come up with, or the ones that refuse to see my goats because 'we dont do goats' even though they see sheep and cattle. My last vet (before I moved to the other side of the country) freely admitted that she wasnt experienced with goats but never hesitated to see my goats and treat them, was always open and honest about what she wanted to try, she was incredible and she saved many goats for me.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Keren, you are doing wonderful things for these horses and you have made wise decisions. I think it is always better to take the advice of a trusted vet and follow your own instincts than to do nothing or follow unknown advice from people you don't even know. (So that said, here is a little advice from a person you don't even know...maybe if you ignore the nasties and stop responding to their thinly veiled taunts they will quit. And if not, we can all flag the unfriendly posts each time.) I am glad to hear of the horses' progress and look forward to hearing about the rest of your journey. Avalon looks to make your life busy and fun for a while!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Avs met a MAN tonight and she did very well! We did approach and retreat and he also had carrots for her. She was uncomfortable and unsure but she tolerated him, and stayed switched off when i gave her the cue. She let him pat her head even. Very very pleased. Brave girl. He loves her and cant wait till he can have a ride down the track. Its been a long time since he was around horses but hes very gentle with them. He was so happy to be round them again.


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## onehorse_2000 (Sep 17, 2012)

That is absolutely true, put it on antibiotics, see improvement, it must be cured. Kinda like an infection with a bacterial component, sinus, uterine, etc. 

X-rays would be a good move at this point to be able to document the deterioration of P3, but I wouldn't put this gelding through that because invariably, this vet would want to cut out any pocket she found and then we definitely are moving from cure rates to survival rates. Your vet does not understand the purpose of an abcess in the foot of the horse and this horse will continue to suffer due to that. 

Unfortunately, what has been done is done, but PLEASE, would someone please put a spot to this posting, someone is likely to pick this information up and thing that this is the correct way to handle an abcess in a horse. 

This reminds me of Barbaro and Chris Reeves!


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Good girl Avs!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Here is a big hug Keren :hug:


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## kghorse (Jan 28, 2013)

I am so very sorry, been lurking for a while, but absolutely agree with Onehorse-2000, you have been lead in the wrong direction by your vet and it will probably be a death sentence for this poor gelding.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Right so what was i supposed to do for him huh?? You and onehorse both cannot come onto a thread and say the animal has been treated wrong wirhout offerring an alternative treatment that you deem right. I have asked onehorse several times what in his infinite wisdom was the right thing to do and he was not helpful at all since all i got was "he needs to walk more" amd the horse has been walking the entire time and i am not going.to go out and buy a pony. If you have nothing constructive to say regarding this thread, do not.post.


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## kghorse (Jan 28, 2013)

I can understand why onehorse was upset and adamant about this posting. It is quite obvious already that you do not understand the basics of a horse's foot and that you set this horse up for a much more painful process then it need be. The best thing for a horse with an abcess is movement. There is something in that foot that the horse is trying to get out and it has to come out through the hole that the abcess created, there is no other way. That is the treatment. In 25 yrs, I have never used anything on an abcess, no wraps, no antibiotics, nothing. If this horse is holding a bandage, he isn't moving enough, it is that simple. And, yes, I have dealt with full sole and coranary blowout that to up 1/3 - 1/2 the coronary band, they were nasty abcesses and the horses were back to work in 4 weeks or less. Movement is the cure.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

He IS moving!! I feel like i am banging my head against a brick wall here. What do i need to do post a video of him walking round the paddock to get ypu people to believe me??!!


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## kghorse (Jan 28, 2013)

Then you need to look for the cause, not turn to antibiotics. Is there an imbalance in the way the foot is trimmed, is there something embedded in the foot. thorn, nail, or does the horse have a metabolic issue that is not being addressed? If you correct those issues, abcesses don't need antibiotics, they need the pus and fluids to move the dieased, dying, and dead materials out of the foot.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Ok, I need to jump in here, I see some strong opinions, but, it is being put in a unnecessary mean manner.
Keren is asking for help, that is why she started the thread and is going by what she has been told. Some cases are harder than others.

She has said, the horse is moving around.

Please, keep it friendly, if we cannot do this, this thread will be locked, or a member will be warned.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Thanks Pam, though I should say that I didnt exactly post this thread for help regarding Bam Bams abcess, its more just updating those who are interested how these rescue horses are going. Mainly a diary of Avs and my learning together 

When Bam was trimmed we saw an old bruise where we think the initial injury was. Could have been anything out in that paddock from a sharp rock to a bit of wire, metal or glass. Doesnt look like there is a foreign object in the foot unless of course it is so deep would need an x ray. The abcess has indeed burst a couple of times and the poultice has been working to draw out all that pus and muck, plus I've been scraping clean the wound while it was very yucky. Its a much cleaner neater hole now as I think it has discharged it all out and now he needs to grow healthy foot material again


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Keren, those of us who have been following know you are doing a lot of good work treating this horse. Please don't feel like you need to defend yourself from these naysaying posters. I would have done EXACTLY what you did, and I am sure Bam bam appreciates your efforts.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

RowdyKidz said:


> Keren, not sure if you remember me or not from long ago but I think it's awesome what you have been doing for these horses! Not many folks would want to step up to the plate and take responsibility for an animal (let alone 3) that don't belong to you. Especially horses! I work at a grain mill, I know how much horse grains are!
> 
> On a slight side note, I am really bothered by a few comments about Vets... I am a Junior in HS and all my life I have admired Vets and wanted to be one. I am very well educated when it comes to livestock care, vaccines, wormings, etc. I do my own shots, treatments, wormings, kiddings, etc and I have since I was about 10 years old. Vets endure 8 years of schooling and only the top 5% make it past their pre-vet degree. Everyone has different ways of doing things, including Vets, but seriously? They went to school for 8 years, they aren't as dumb as some of you seem to think. I trust a Vet's opinion until I have ONE reason not to. Vets aren't perfect, but everyone makes mistakes. I know Vet Bills today are horrible but if my animal's have a problem that I don't know how to fix on my own, you can bet I'm willing to pay the $$ to make sure the problem is found.
> 
> Sorry, I will get off my soapbox. But seriously Keren, I totally admire you for taking in those horses! Especially in today's age, horses aren't cheap! Especially ones needing antibiotics and vet treatment!


Tara - I used to trust all vets....until I started working with horses years ago. 
The vet was a 'known' vet, he was this farm's go to vet, did everything <about 200+ horses on the grounds at the time between mares, weanlings, yearlings & stallions>. 
Ummm...let's just say that after that I do get very leary about vets.
I seen a foal die once that sadly, we all knew would not make it, something was wrong internally. Instead of putting that foal down, he wanted to go back and consult with the owners....use your cell phone for heaven's sake!
That foal was in horrible pain, thrashing around the stall. I had to call the farm manager to get them back to the barn just so they could do what they should have done 10 minutes earlier before the poor baby suffered.
That was so awful...omg just gutwrenching horrible memory 

About a year later, my husband was caring for a mare that had surgery, forget what happened to her, but she was cut from behind her front legs all the way back to in front of her back legs on the under belly.
Her stitches were coming out prematurely, so my husband wrapped something around her belly to keep it from getting worse.
The vet was clearly explained to that the mare was 'coming undone' 
She should have been taken to the clinic, sedated and laid down.

What did this vet do?
He took off the bandages and you can just imagine what happened!  My husband never has bad nightmares, but he sure did after that, and it really really messed him up for a while.

One more little tidbit. He was treating a mare with a medication because she had an infection in her hoof after stepping on a fence nail. She wasn't getting better, we were doing everything else in the barn we could - soaking, using a special shoe, etc. etc. Come to find out the moron was giving her the wrong medication!!!  That mare came a day from being put down because they thought she'd never heal up, and turns out she wasn't even getting the right meds <I can't remember now what it was she needed & what she was actually getting>. I do remember when she was finally on the right stuff she healed up and was fine again.

So yeah, you can't always trust vets. This is horse country, some of the best equine vets in the business are located here. yet, you hear about these things all the time.

With that said, I think Keren is doing an outstanding job trying to get these horses back in shape. She's extremely smart IMO, she always has a very very good, solid opinion, and to me, she seems like a person that has a great instinct and love for what she does. 
There are a million ways to take care of a horse, a goat, a cow, or even a dog. 
Just because she may not do what everyone else does, just have her back, support her for what she is doing. Because we all know there are thousands of horses out there who don't get this second chance at life...


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

It sounds like Keren has a well known, well loved and trusted vet to rely on. Let's just celebrate the good that is being done and let Keren share her journey here. Please?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Thank you hoosier  yeah i jave had some.rough experiences with vets BUT i juat hate it wjen people.tar all vets with the same brush. 

Mimi, i know, i am trying awfully hard not to feed the trolls but i guess i am too prpud to just sit back while people accuse me of animal.cruelty/neglect even.if it isnt said in so many words and just implied.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Ya that sucks, guess I wouldn't be able to ignore them either. Here's a big hug and a thanks for your patience so that the rest of us can hear your story!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Ok here's a question. About Avs feet. I am getting anxious and really wishing I was close to having them trimmed, but we are not 

As you know I have made some progress. We went from not being able to touch her shoulder at all, to being able to pick up the front feet for 1 second, 2 seconds, we are at 4 seconds now. But we dont seem to be progressing past this point. I start the session by giving her a good brush because she loves that, then doing some ground work she is good at to build her confidence, then work on the legs and get one good lift each side, REWARD each time, then more ground work she is familiar with, and finish with a brush again. 

I would have hoped we would have progressed further but we dont seem to be. I even get the feeling that she is not scared of me picking up the feet anymore, she just doesnt want to do it. I dunno. 

What she does is simply walks away when I have her foot up. Its doing my head in. So - question one - how do I correct this? She is very good at standing still next to me now. I havent taught her to tie up and dont know if she knows how to do that or not, and I dont know if thats are smart thing to do, tie her up while I'm trying to teach the feet, or not? I was thinking earlier today perhaps I need to keep her lead tucked under my arm a little tighter so that she cannot walk straight away but would only be able to bend around me. Kinda like a one rein stop, if that makes any sense at all. Not sure I'm describing what I mean right. 

I have been reading various methods and one person was saying that if a horse doesnt want to keep its foot up they will make them walk or trot a circle on the lunge line then bring them back in and do it again. Tough love method, so they learn it is better to stand still than to have to keep moving. I am not sure if this may be too heavy handed for her, but I guess that brings me to question two - is it worth trying this tactic? Or do I simply need to continue the method I have been doing, in the hopes that eventually she is going to be comfortable enough to do it? 

Question three is something I also thought of this morning, is it possible that because of those cracks she is just too sore on the other foot to bear the weight while I have the other one up in the air? She doesnt appear lame but I am not good at reading subtle pain indicators in horses.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

I thought one_horse got rude last thread...but so far I see NO mean/nasty comments...just people concerned that this way of healing is actually hurting. I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm too ignorant about it to form any real opinion on the treatment...but I also have to say that throwing blind trust at vets because they are nice and have done OK in the past...it makes me leery. I worked at a vet's office for awhile. I could tell you things...not all vets are honest or know even half of what you think, even if they ARE caring and good people. And the people where I worked were not only deep hearted and caring but went through as much continuing education as possible..Some things really require specialists, a lot of things really, and one vet's knowledge is expected to be spread over too vast an area over too many species to be an expert in all areas (although everyone assumes they just are the end all know all of every issue with every animal ever!)....but I also learned secrets about vets at several other hospitals in the area and as amazing of a reputation as some had, some were duplicitous and deceptive and some simply placed their own pride over the well-being of the animal (IE admitting they were wrong or over their head or refusing to consult another doctor whose advice may have been needed.) I'm not saying ANYTHING negative about this vet, just a wake up about vets in general...I always go in with my own research and a couple of numbers of other vets to call for second and third opinions. Always. But I've been burned way too many times, by both negative vets and amazing, kind hearted vets who just didn't know enough about what they were doing in a particular instance.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

firelight I object to posts that have been made on this thread that allude that I am not treating these horses properly and that they are suffering because of it. 

To me, that is hugely insulting. 

The comment has also been made that because of how this foot abcess has been treated, the horse is going to die. 

If you agree that the treatment is wrong, how about giving me an ALTERNATIVE. So far the people who are objecting to how this horse has been treated have NOT offered any constructive alternatives.


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## LocustGroveFarm (Jan 29, 2013)

Comments have been removed by moderator.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

I think this has gotten quite ridicules. This abscess subject has been beat to death. There is nothing left to say about it without repeating what has already been said. Keren has already taken the advice given into account. If she chooses not to take said advice she has the full right to. Continueing on with these continues comments about the abscess are getting nowhere. One Horse the statement about making sure that somone does not just take Keren's way of treating the abscess as a treatment is invalid as clearly your way of treating it is all over this thread as well as the other. Your point and the points of the others who seem to have joined this site just to reply to this thread has been made quite clearly. There is simply nothing else left to say.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Nevertheless, i will repeat since you dont seem to get it, until you can give me an alternative trsatment, dont tell me not to do what im doing. Telling me i am wrong without saying what is the right thing to do is not constructive at all.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Keren, I just want to say you are doing am amazing job with this horse. really you could of just let it go and notworry about it after all.

Keep up the good work


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Keren, there are a few things I might suggest here. Use one or all of them. I don't think I would start with the method you described with this horse. I agree it might be too heavy handed for her right now. I would give her a chance with a few other methods first. Make sure you do hoof training several times in a session. Lift the foot, do something else, lift the foot, do something else. Yes, you need to move on when she gets it right, but you can go back to it again fairly quickly. 

First, I would try to discover if she ties well. She seems to have some training already that is coming back as you gain her trust. She may tie already. To do this I would use what I call a soft tie and test it out. Just wrap the lead once around the tie off object with her pretty close, and hold the lose end of the lead. Make sure you use a stout tie area (good stout tree trunk? just something that will not move or break off.) Then just walk off to the side until you reach the end of the lead. She would normally just follow you right? This time she will come up against the restraint of the lead and you can judge her reaction. Do not be alarmed if she is surprised and pulls back at first. But if she jumps forward again and stands without fighting you can be reasonable assured that she will tie well. If she freaks out though, she is not tied hard and you can easily let her off the tie while maintaining control. 

So if she does tie you can use that to prevent her from walking off. If walking off is an option, she will probably continue to use that to her advantage. I would still use a soft tie (no knots or a VERY loose slip knot) if possible and put her up against a wall or safe fence so she doesn't just dance off to the side. She may react differently with the restraints so go back to the soft rope until you are sure she is going to be safe to handle. Also, the rope gives you more control if she tries to take the foot away. If she does, then you can continue to apply pressure so that taking the foot away is not so much of a reward. She has to comply to get the release. Without the rope, if she jerks the hoof out of your hands she wins her release at least for the moment. 

OR/AND Actively teach her the command "Whoa". Too many people neglect this in their training and it is so helpful to have a horse who is reliable with whoa. When you teach Whoa, you need to give her the chance to make a mistake and then correct it. Don't drag your horse to a stop and say whoa. Instead give the command while walking, stop yourself and see if the horse stops beside you. If so great! If not, correct her with sharp bumps on the lead until she is stopped and then slacken the lead. If she moves, correct her again. The key is to get her to stop moving at "Whoa" on a loose lead, so that she understands "whoa" means stop and stand until I tell you otherwise. It is much easier for the horse to get the concept going from a walk to a stop first and then apply that to standing still. Only use Whoa if you can enforce it and always enforce it. Then when you have a firm Whoa, you can use it to command her to stand still while you handle her feet. 

OK, another idea is to go back to the soft rope anyway. I discovered this while training a young horse to hobble. He came to me after someone had tried hobbles on him already. He had freaked out, flipped over and hurt himself so needless to say, he was petrified. I used the soft rope method you used with Avs to get him comfortable with something around his ankles, but took it to a new level. I would lead him around by the foot. I wanted him to know that he could still move with the restraint on and it wouldn't throw him down. I would apply pressure to the side with the foot rope until he moved the foot, then I would use the halter to move his body over so that his weight was over the foot again. At first we moved inches at a time, but soon he would allow himself to be lead easily, by either front foot (to the side, the front or backwards). Only then did I move on to attaching the legs together. By then he was Ok with it. But getting to the point of this for Avs. If she can be taught to allow you to control her feet in this way, the lifting of her feet will not be as big a deal. In fact, you should include lifting the foot with the rope in the sessions. 

Now, when you work with her, do you use a command to put the foot down? You should. The ones I use are "foot" for up "OK" for release. Try to beat her to the punch while teaching the command. Lift the foot and immediately command "OK" and put it right back down. Praise. Do that a few times so she hears "OK" and wonders what that's all about. Then go to lift hold 1 second then "OK" and put it down. Praise. Extend the time slowly. The idea is to teach her to wait for the OK. If she tries or succeeds in taking the foot away from you, scold her "NO!" do something mildly unpleasant (can be as mild as a growl or a pinch on the leg) and immediately go back to the foot. Remember, get one positive response (or one on each foot) and then move on to something else before trying again. I know that teaching the command will cause a slowdown in the short term, but ultimately if she knows a command is coming to put the foot down she may be able to wait better.

It is possible that her feet are a bit sore and it is uncomfortable for her to stand on one foot, but I am guessing that is not the problem here. I suspect that she is just able to take the foot away so she does. She will need to stand on the feet anyway to get trimmed so sore or not (and I think not) she has to manage. If you really think she may be hurting, you could try some pain reliever to see if it makes a difference. I bet she comes around quickly though.

I hope this was helpful to you! Have fun!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Thanks Mimi, all really helpful advice! 

You know even before I read your post, I was thinking today and came to the conclusion that I was going to teach her to tie, and that my first step would be to 'soft tie' to see her reaction and gauge whether she knows how to tie or not  so I'm glad we are on the same page! 

I like the idea of the command OK when I am going to put the foot down, I'm definitely going to implement that. I have been giving the command 'foot' to ask her to pick it up but not giving a release command, simply putting it down and then giving the reward 'good' and the scratch on her neck. 

We have been working on WHOA too. She is good to WHOA when she is lunging, with the command and also my hand held out as a stop signal. But she is not so crash hot on WHOA when I am leading her. By that I dont mean to say she walks over the top of me or simply keeps walking, but I lead her from a good distance away, with the command walk on, but when I stop, say whoa, and hold up my hand she doesnt always stop where she is, she prefers to walk a few more steps until she is next to me and then stop. This is something we are working on. To get her to pull up when she doesnt from the command and the signal, I send energy down my lead rope in an up and down direction, if that makes sense. As opposed to side to side motion for backing up. 

I dont think she's really in a lot of pain, and I dont think its a trust thing any more. I think she has worked through the fear and now is doing it simply because she can  cheeky horse!

On a side note, I discovered she is EXTREMELY moody when she is in season!  Oh yay, one of THOSE mares!


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Hehehe ....mares! I guess I am a brat when hormonal too so why expect better from a horse? Ha ha 

I got a pretty good giggle reading your description of her whoa from leading issue. I can just see her bobbing her head at you as she steps up saying "I'm telling you.....I am supposed to be HERE!......what?....no...I...here?...I don't like this spot....well ok....sheesh!...(How am I ever gonna teach her where I should stand for whoa?). 

I imagine that she was originally trained a bit different. I usually lead my horses with their head only about one foot from my hand on the lead. I like them pretty close. I figure if they are gonna get spooked, I don't want them to have a head of steam built up by the time they hit the end of the lead (Or worse, me). I want them to lead with their head about parallel with my shoulder. I bet that is how she was trained and so she thinks she should be close. That is not to say that you shouldn't teach her to lead and stop the way you expect.

It's fun to hear about all you are doing!


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

Glad to hear her progress! I laughed at the mare part lol!


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## LocustGroveFarm (Jan 29, 2013)

Edited by moderator


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

yeah mimi she is a wee bit confused when I am asking her to stop a couple meters away from me. To be honest I dont mind her closing the gap because its obviously what she is comfortable with and she NEVER walks over me or pushes me at all just comes in until she is next to me then stops. Obviously what she is used to. She likes to do it when I halt her at a lunge too. I more just want her to have a solid concept of the command WHOA and to stop when I say to no matter where she is. Stop means stop. 

I know what you mean about the leading at the shoulder. The bay mare has obviously been taught that way and was quite pushy with it. I showed her new owners how to correct it and they are doing much better now. She still walks close but doesnt push. To me leading at the shoulder has always felt awkward, even though that makes no sense because I show cattle and lead them from the shoulder. Go figure. I guess I just always have led a horse from out front a good distance.


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

Keren,
Thank you for being a hero to those horses and helping them when they had no one. I commend you for helping them!! It sounds like you are doing a fantastic job with them. It is alway hard to build back trust. Even harder with horses that have been doing who knows what for a while. 

Good job and keep up the good work. I think anyone who wants to be negitive towards you when you are doing such a great thing for these horses should be ashamed of themselves.

Keep up the great work and keep us posted!!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thank you Tracy and everyone else including moderators who have been supporting me with this


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

Any more updates on the horses?


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

You sure have done alot with those horses! You are to be commended for all your efforts!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, Keren is a sweet, kind hearted, caring person.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Just to let everyone know, all previous rude comments made, by said posters, were taken care of. I appreciate all, that are concerned who reads it and that has reported it .You are right, it was rude, uncalled for and will not be tolerated.
Our moderator team thought of deleting the rude comments, but thought, the rest of it will not make any sense, if read with those pieces missing.So, we have left it there.
Any rude comments here after, can be reported. Thanks for watching out for TGS.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

OH and I will add:

If you join TGS just to post on this topic in a rude and unfriendly manor -- YOU WILL BE BANNED. We DO NOT tolerate such behavior here!

This topic is being closely monitered by the moderators/admins and by faithful members of TGS who report your posts to us. YOU WILL BE CAUGHT and your comments removed from here on out. 

There will NOT be a warning for those who join and just post on here in a rude and condescending manor.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Any Update Keren?


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

I know she posted a thing about the fire and one of the horses getting cut but I don't know which one.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thanks Delilah for the info, I hope things are OK.


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

Welcome. Me too, I'm getting antsy! Lol


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Sorry guys. The weekend has been a bit hectic and definitely not to plan. 

Yes it was Avs who cut her neck. Not too badly, but badly enough to look pretty yucky. On a side note I am very impressed with her for how well she did when we walked them up from the paddock to the stockyards to get them away from the fire. If it had reached our property it would have got their paddock first. They were all three going a bit nutty in the paddock racing around. When we walked them up to the yards there were four helicopters flying very low and very fast over our heads back and forth from the dam to the fire. It almost felt like we were in a war zone. I expected to have real problems leading her through there, but all she did was throw her head up and look at everything and danced a bit on the spot but she kept listening to me the whole time and was very good. She cut herself in the stockyards when she was running around a bit which to be honest was to be expected since the stockyards are very old and not really horse safe I was expecting for at least one of them to cut themselves but at the time it was the lesser of two evils - possible cuts or possible horse roast!

Yesterday turned into a training session when I went to spray Cetrigen (like your BlueKote) on the cut. Silly bugger just went nutty, you would have thought there was acid in the bottle. I had her on the end of the 12 ft rope and she was rearing and running circles. It took about twenty minutes for her to calm and realise it wasnt going to hurt her. Basically I started squirting it next to her, she ran, I continued squirting for a circle then pulled her up and rewarded when she stopped and stood still. Then progressed to squirting her chest far away from the injury and she took off again, I asked her to whoa and then rewarded when she stood. Eventually I was able to continue squirting her chest while she stopped and she got LOTS of praise for that, and so then I managed to squirt the actual cut while she stood still. Smart girl figured it out eventually but gosh what a drama for just a bit of spray on a little cut!!


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

I'm glad she's okay! It's amazing that she didn't freak out with the helicopters flying overhead, she must have known you were leading her to safety. Do you use fly spray? You training her with the spray will help her if you ever decide to put fly spray on her, I think not positive but it's kind of the same thing.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

The stuff I put on the cut is an antiseptic that also keeps flies off. Its like, the stockman's right hand man here in Australia to put on cuts, scratches etc. on livestock. Keeps it cleans helps prevent infection and keeps flies away - VERY important in our country in summer. Put it on disbudding sites, castrating sites, injuries etc. I doubt it will be the last time she needs it so its important she learns to stand still for it. I do also have another spray called Repel-X which is fly spray, I mainly use it on the goats legs at milking time so they dont step in the milk bucket while trying to kick flies. So far the horses dont seem to be bothered too much by flies but if I need to use that on her you are right, she will know its ok. 

I know I'm so proud of her with the helicopters. I just kept talking to her the whole way and she was scared but listening so it was all ok.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Wow Keren, what a day! I am so glad everyone is ok. That is amazing that she listened and trusted you through all that. Kind of makes you think about the timing of that and what could have happened if you had not come into their lives huh? Great job getting her to accept the spray too! I sure hope you get to rest and relax and just enjoy your horse soon,... All the drama in your life!!! Sheesh!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, so hectic. Glad things are alright. :hug:


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

So glad everyone's ok!!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Here's an update on Avs










Crappy photo cos it was getting late but we attempted a 'soft tie' tonight mainly to gauge whether she has been solid tied before - and I think its safe to say she has. I parked her next to the post, looped the lead round, and walked away (to the end of the rope) and she just stood there like she had been doing it all her life and she knew exactly why she was parked there and that she had to stay.

Tomorrow will do a solid tie and I will walk away completely. I didnt tonight because I didnt have a knife handy in case of emergency. And because I want to clean this tie area up a bit first. Since she was so calm and accepting I thought I would stretch the friendship a bit and see if I could lift a foot. The whole reason I'm wanting to tie her is because when I try to lift her feet she walks away. Well she did not move a muscle, I held the foot up longer than I ever have before, she tried to pull it away and I growled and she settled, I then said ok and put it down gently and rewarded her, she did not attempt to move away the whole time only did a few jerks of the foot. Huge progress! And touch wood, I think this will be the key in getting somewhere with these feet!  very happy with my brave smart girl


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

sorry if some of that comment seems a bit strange like I'm telling you guys things you already know - I just copied and pasted what I wrote on facebook cos I was feeling lazy


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

That's good! Just think you'll be able to trim her feet before you know it. If I remember right you said you trim you know how to trim horse hooves? If so maybe you could get her used to the tools around her like the rasp, parring knife, hoof pick etc.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Yay keren! That's great news! She seems no worse for the wear after your fire issue. Great job!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

well after the progress we made yesterday, I feel like today's hour session achieved absolutely nothing at all. She tied up fine. But then acted like she'd never had her feet handled ever in her life. 

Feeling a bit disheartened by it all.


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

It's fine keren! She probably just had a bad day like us humans, horses have bad days just like us. I'm sure tomorrow or in a few days she'll be over it and have a really good day. Sometimes with my horse Lucy I'll go out and do ground work or ride her and she'll have a bad day it is really disheartening, but after the bad day usually the next day or the day after she has a really good day.


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

One horse: If you don't have anything nice to post than don't post it.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Cheers onehorse. Thats exactly what i wanted after a bad day. Why dont you learn? You'll just be banned again. 

Yeah i know its just one bad day in the scheme of things. I know it will be better next time. Just need to keep reminding myself. Kind of hard tho wjn i went frpm such a good day to such a bad day.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

delilah, keren -- just dont respond to them. Just report as you did and we will take care of as quickly as possible. 

as to your situation Keren - is she heading into heat? I know you said she goes wacky when in heat.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm sorry you had a rough day with her. I do know how you feel, you go out there with such a light heart ready for another great time and she slams a hoof down. Sigh. And even though you know it is just a bad day, it feels like a huge setback. My guess is that she spent the night ruminating about how it came to pass, and has decided to put up one last ditch effort to maintain the control she had. I would just patiently go through all the steps with her again (but with her tied up) that you have already covered. She will soon take a deep breath and give in. Appaloosas can be very single minded, it can be your biggest training challenge, but it can also work to your advantage. Once they decide that something is right, they will not willingly deviate from that. You are doing great, she wants to please you. Just keep on reinforcing only the behavior that you want and she will come around.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Keren. Don't get discouraged all horses go through this this. I did something like this with a horse that got hurt in the horse trailer. I woul get her loaded and she would trust me. Then the next day. No way would she load. I felt like I was always starting over. Be patient and don't let her feel your anger. It is hard. I know first hand 
Keep up the good work you are doing great.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug: For you Keren.


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

:hug: Another hug for you.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Hey Keren, how's that sweet girl of yours?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Some bad news and some good news*

Hey guys, sorry I havent updated in ages 

Avs and I did not have a good week last week.

Bam Bam went away to an agistment centre, since it is closer to his new owner so she can spend more time training him, and also so she can take over the daily soaking in epsom salts etc etc. She brought her standardbred gelding, Signy, out to spell in my paddock to take Bam Bam's place, since she only has the one spot at the agistment centre. So she essentially swapped the horses over.

Poor Avalon has really got her nose out of joint about this. It has been a very hard transition for her and she still has not fully recovered. It wasnt so much missing Bam Bam although she did for a little while, but moreso the fact that the new gelding Signy is well and truly the dominant horse now, when she always used to be the herd leader. She tried to dominate Signy and he would not have a bar of it. He has kicked her, bitten her and chased her, and for a while she gave as good as she got. He has some pretty good bite marks too. She has now submitted to him I think, well she is not challenging him anymore, but he does not let her approach.

It has been a huge set back. She is like a completely different horse. She is actually worse now then when I first caught her and brought her up out of the big paddock. She is very nervous, jittery, wont stand still. Always got her head up and will not yield the poll and 'switch off'. I just cant seem to get her to focus and get her head in the game, so to speak. She hasnt got a brain at all at the moment, just purely running on instinct and adrenaline.

She is also showing severe separation anxiety with Princess. Its funny because previously when Bam was here, Avs hated Princess. Now it seems she is trying to grasp any semblance of what was normal in her life before it turned topsy turvy, and she is making it very clear that Princess is hers, not Signy's. She sticks to Princess like glue now, and she herds her away when Princess tries to approach him.

The separation anxiety thing became a noticable issue last week on Thursday afternoon. The neighbours kids came and took Princess out of the paddock to ride her in their round yard. I had Avs on the halter at the time, spraying her cut and working her a littlem although like I said she really wasnt focusing and working properly like she was prior to the horse swap. Well she completely lost focus when Princess was taken away, so I walked with her over to the fence where she would be able to see Princess, stopping and starting a few times along the way which she was happy enough to do. I took the halter off and as I expected she hooned up and down the fence and generally carried on but it wasnt anything out of the ordinary - she did the same thing when I first penned her up on our 12 acres and she wanted to be back out on the 300. However it all went pear shaped when Princess was being walked back to the paddock, went around a big bush and out of eye sight, and there must be some nerves on Princess' behalf as well because she apparently reared and neighed, and thats when Avs just absolutely lost the plot. She threw herself through the fence (barbed wire), fell to the ground, miraculously got up without getting tangled and fell into the bush, then came bursting out again. We got Princess back in the paddock and luckily no one was hurt, got the fence back up, Avs has a few minor cuts on back and front legs to add to her collection but it could have easily been a lot worse.

I really struggled Thursday night. I had had a really ****ty day at work with what seems like a highly contagious zoonotic disease killing birds in our colonies, followed by a ****ty afternoon in which the money I was owed from a friend isnt going to come in any time soon meaning I wont be able to service my does to that outside nubian buck much less buy him, and then followed by a really ****ty evening with the horse going mental. I had a bit of a breakdown, everything just seemed like it was falling apart and I was completely overwhelmed and thinking I had taken on way too much with this horse and that I was a fool for thinking with my limited experience that I could help her. I think if someone had come along and offered I would have given away the horse and all of the goats that night. I cried for around 4 hours, it was a very dark and hard night for me.

I realised after that night that it wasnt the end of the world, and that I needed to keep persevering, but to be honest I have been quite discouraged by how different she is, how she has changed, how she seems unable to do things that she was perfectly fine with last week. I was wondering what had happened to my horse and just really disappointed that we seem to have regressed back to stage one.

Yesterday my friend came out and worked Signy, I worked Avs for probably 2 or 3 hrs. Princess was taken out of the paddock for half an hour and Avs went absolutely mental, I let her lunge on the end of the rope until she realised it wasnt helping at all, and I just tried to keep working her and changing her mind. I didnt achieve much, there was lots of rearing, bucking, fighting the rope, running about, head tossing and general nervous stupidity. Princess then came back to the paddock and was ridden about bareback for a bit, I am hoping this will help Avs realise that its ok if she goes away, she comes back and she is just fine.

I did however get a glimpse of the horse I used to know, the horse I know is in there. Within that 2 or 3 hr session I got about 10 minutes towards the end where she actually stood still with her head down and switched off while I scratched her, and this was with Princess a reasonable distance away.

So basically I'm just starting from the start again, and I'm grasping onto that little glimmer of hope that she will discover her brain again and get back to her sweet, nervous but intelligent self.

Oh - Bam update - he is going for x-rays shortly to a different vet, he is being taken to a lameness specialist. He has continued to improve, but not 100%. The farrier was out at the agistment centre and he said that all his tendons and ligaments were very tense and there was something serious going on, and probably has been for a long time. So x rays are next on the agenda probably followed by surgery, poor boy. lets really hope it fixes him up


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Lol another update on Avs. I just got home and she has managed to put herself into the goat paddock - and I'm inclined to leave her there. She's not 100% happy about it, a bit of pacing etc, but she is not frantic, and Signy and Princess are way off in the distance grazing. Avs is standing calmly in the goat paddock, and came trotting over to see me when I got home. I reckon if she stays in, she can learn to be an only horse for a while.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm sorry your going through a rough patch with Avs but I'm sure it will get better. I guess if she wants to be in with the goats she can teach herself to not be so panicky away from the other horses.


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

I'm sorry that your going through a hard time with Avs right now, hopefully soon after she sorts things out in the goat pasture then she will start to get better again!
:hug:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm sorry you are going through so much. Hopefully things will settle down soon.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh keren, what a strong loving person you seem to be! It's funny that Avs sorted herself away from the others. I was going to suggest that you pen her up by herself where she had to look to you for companionship/comfort/leadership instead of her equine friends. I think you should keep her in there if you can. She will have you and the goats so she won't suffer for it. I sure hope she comes around for you again soon. Big hugs from Colorado.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

She is definitely a LOT more focused on me and calmer in the goat paddock. I brought her a biscuit of lucerne last night and she stood quietly, ate, and I brushed her all over. 

The way the paddock is set up the goats have 2 acres that the horses cant get into, so they can get away from them if they need to, the rest of our property is about 10 acres and the horses are out there. There is a section of fence between the two that is just a couple strands of electrical tape but not live, the goats scoot under that and out to the big pasture to graze when they want to. I have no doubt Avs could walk straight through that if she wanted to, but she hasnt go out yet. 

She occasionally paces the fence but not frantically, she looks at the other horses but doesnt call to them. She relaxes and just grazes, so she seems calm enough, not 100% happy but certainly tolerating and accepting of the fact that she is by herself. The goats she ignores, doesnt like or dislike them.


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

Maybe being in with the goats is like time out in the corner when you were little and she's thinking about what she did wrong! Lol


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

Any update on her?


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

How's she doing?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Ugh, you wouldnt believe it I had a big long update typed out and accidentally hit close instead of minimise. Hang on, I'll type it all out again.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Well its been 2 weeks since the horse swap and herd structure changed which she didnt cope with very well, and 1 week since she separated herself into the goat paddock. 

I'm pleased to say she is doing really well :dance:

For this last week I havent tried to rope her or work her at all, I've just let her learn to be a horse by herself, and tried to be friendly with her. Most afternoons when I drive home from work and pull into the driveway, she looks and starts to come over, so I stop and give her a little treat and a scratch over the fence - spent all week heading off to work with a carrot or a handful of hay in the car, lol. Then in the afternoons, the goats come out of the paddock to get tied up for their dinner and milking, and I've been bringing her a biscuit of hay since she is in a much smaller paddock now with not much grass. While she eats her hay I've been scratching her neck, brushing her all over, and talking to her, just trying to be friendly and non-demanding. 

So yesterday was the first time in a week that I put the halter on her. I went out there with very few expectations but lots of praise. I started right back at the start. We did lots of walk on and whoa, backing up, standing, and then coming back in. She yielded the poll when I asked for 'head down' and a little pressure. She was very calm and relaxed, worked most of the session with her head down in a very calm position and 'switched off' when I asked her to. We did a small controlled lunge just at a walk and slow trot both directions and she faced up really well. She also yielded the hindquarters. 

Something Mimi said made me think, about penning her separate so she looks to me for leadership and companionship. I got thinking and realised that is what I had lost. She no longer saw me as a leader and someone she could trust to guide her. It was probably plainly obvious to more experienced people, she would not walk behind me, always trying to get in front, didnt want to stand still with me, head always up in flight mode, not concentrating at all on me. She felt she needed to be leader, she was scared of everything, and I was just along for the ride. I am hopeful now that we are starting to re-build that relationship where she trusts me enough and has confidence in me as a leader. She was very very good at following behind me on a loose lead, never tried to get ahead of me, stopped when I stopped, backed up well. 

A really nice thing after yesterdays session, when I let her go, she continued following me. This hasnt happened since the horse swap, she has just taken off as soon as the halter was off, to be honest that broke my heart a bit. I was so happy to hear her following me yesterday when I walked away. 

I have made a few other decisions with her. Firstly that I am going to get her sedated to have her feet taken care of as soon as finances allow. I know I said from the start that I wanted to work through her mental issues with foot handling rather than resort to sedation, but the last few weeks have made it clear that she has so many many other issues going on, I'd really like to be able to get a good solid foundation first, and work on the foot training later down the track. I'm not gong to abandon it completely, I just dont want it to have to be my goal right now. 

The second thing kind of ties in to why I want to move on the foot issue, and that is because I want to take her to a trainer and obviously cant with the state her feet are in right now. I found a trainer who is also an appaloosa breeer, and that really appeals to me because I figure she will know how appys think. She offers private sessions one on one helping people train their horse, and she also does clinics. One I am particularly interested in attending is called "The Emotional Horse and Rider" about instilling confidence in the nervous horse, controlling the flight response and how our own emotions affect our horses. I am thinking of going to the next clinic as an observer with the hope of taking Avs along further down the track. 

At this point though, I am trying to remind myself to take it really slow, not expect too much, not rush her at all. I think I was expecting too much and pushing her too quickly when I need to really let her take it slowly.


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

I'm glad she's improved so much and that your relationship with her is getting stronger!


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh my gosh, I am so glad to hear that Avs has regained herself. You have your sweet girl back. I think your decisions are wise and well thought out. If you can figure out how to safely sedate and trim her, that will be a tremendous relief for you. But, don't get too discouraged about Avalon's reactions to recent events. She must have been terribly frightened and confused. From her point of view, her best friend in the world had disappeared and been replaced by a brute (in her mind) who was bent on taking control by force. Panic set in and nothing felt safe anymore. She was always in flight or fight mode. She did settle down as soon as she got away from the "bully" right? That said, her mental control/behavior when in fear or under stress needs work which may be a bit much for a novice trainer going it alone. It will be nice for you to have a more experienced trainer nearby to help you. You have done great with Avalon so far and you will do great in the future! I hope you get to just relax and enjoy working with her, and loving on her.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I am so glad that she is doing better. I wouldn't even know where to begin on something like this. I think your doing great with her, and this is something you learn as you go, you learn what works with her, and what doesn't. 
I also think it's a good idea to get her sedated and get her feed done, hopefully you can get that done soon, so you can work on getting her to the trainer. I hope the trainer can help you and give you more ideas.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Ok here's your weekly Avalon update 

Small update on Bam Bam, still doing well at the other agistment centre, limping less and less, was actually cantering round his paddock the other day. Hoof shape is getting better. :thumbup:

So today I did much of the same work with Avs as I have been doing although today I brought her out of the paddock into an area she was not familiar with. She was very nervous to start with but calmed down after a little while.

I am so pleased I have some photos to show you. It seems like I usually work her in the late afternoon when its starting to get too dark for photos, or I'm by myself so I only get pictures of her face. But my friend was over today to see her gelding so she snapped a couple for me. Crappy phone photos but its better than nothing. This is the first photo of Avs and me together and I love it










And one of her trying out a saddle. She wasnt particularly fazed by it. It was a spur of the moment decision to try it on, its my mate's saddle for her gelding. She wasnt worried about it at all when we put it on, although she wasnt keen on having the girth done up (and we didnt manage to because she is fatter than the gelding and needs a longer girth). But I'm very pleased with how well she accepted it 










I'm so proud of this girl and how well she is progressing again. I just love her. Good girl Avs!


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

I'm so glad that everything is going so well with her! Thanks for the picture they were nice to see! I love the first one!


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh cool! You're right! That is a great shot! I am so glad to hear that you are doing so well with her! She looks relaxed and happy!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

well we had a really nice afternoon amd im sooooo happy with her. 

i put the saddle on her, did up the girth, sje didnt even bat an eyelid. we went for a walk and lunged at a walk and trot with the saddle on. she was really good. 

i then tied the lead rope arpund her neck amd back.tp the halter to make a set of 'reins'. i stood level woth the saddle, gave her the command to walk on and tickled her side and off she went at a nice little walk, responded to me moving the reins left amd right and pulled up when i said whoa and put pressure on the reins. 

this was all very different to what we hVe been doing and she seemed to cope with it well. i want to give jer plenty of time to think abput it so i plan on just taking her for a little walk tomorrow to graze up the drive.


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## LittleGoatGal (Jan 9, 2013)

Hey Keren, 
Listen to your vet, your vet has actually seen it and examined it, the folks on this site haven't. As for your mare, I have a mare who was abused extremely bad. She was starved almost to death as a 3 year old and a man went up to the lady's door and told her that she better give him that horse or he would call animal control so she handed her over. He got her home and got her cleaned up (she had been living in an 8 x 8 ft pen with mud and poop and pee up to her belly and a little bit of nasty water with no shelter or food) and got her on a good diet of free fed grass hay and whatever else.. anyways he had no idea she was pregnant and I guess she dropped a VERY sickly paint colt that died later that day... (I'm sure Cheyenne was devastated but honestly in her body condition she couldn't have nursed a foal and lived) so he kept trying to make her look better and she put weight on and looked good so he gave her to my friend Michelle who is a horse trainer and she broke her and everything but she had too many horses so she gave her to my other friend, Gail. Well because Cheyenne had trust issues, Gail isn't a very confident horse person and Chey needed someone confident to teach her things and help her, so Gail gave her to get son in law and I was working on the ranch he works at last summer and he told me that he was giving her away and asked if I wanted her. I looked at her, she was very stand offish and didn't want any part of being loved on. Then he told me her story and I almost broke down in tears. I told him I would take her. I didn't want her to go to someone else who wouldn't like her because she has trust issues. So I've had her since last July and she has come around. You can definitely tell that she likes me the most since she'll let me do just about everything but the lady that abused her apparently did her own shots and trimmed her own horses hooves (I've heard from other people) so Cheyenne hated the farrier. Then one of my good friends went to farrier school and he is now my farrier and he understands so every time he comes to do her feet he rubs her all over and talks to her so she is relaxed then he works on her feet. The vet on the other hand I don't think she will ever get over, I can't even worm her (syringe oh no!!) lol but I have to ear twitch her just to worm her or she will rear up and loose her mind. I had the horse chiropractor come out for my gelding and she also does massage so I asked her to give my mare a massage and she loved it! (she doesn't usually let women touch her all over like that) 

But maybe massaging your mare will help since she likes being brushed too. & have your hubby rub her all over. Horses can also sense what you are feeling so if you get real nervous or anything when introducing her to new people she will learn to be nervous with new people so just be confident and if something bothers her just keep doing it over and over and over until she gets over it. Confidence with abused horses is KEY!  Good luck, it sounds like she is going to be a good horse! 

I saw your previous thread by the way, your mare is Appy and the gelding looks like a Welsh or Morgan crossed with a paint. Especially with the way his back and rump are shaped I would say more Welsh. 

This is a pic of my mare

Oh and the bump on the side of her throat area, that is from an old injury (I'm guessing when she was being abused) it's a hole in her salivary duct that drains into the side of her face but when enough pressure builds up it drains properly (it gets about the size of a tennis ball when she eats but when she's not eating or drinking it shrinks back down to almost nothing just loose skin) I've had 3 different vets look at it and they said as long as it doesn't bother her then leave it alone but if it really bothers me (the appearance) then they could inject it with silver nitrate and "pickle" that gland so it doesn't produce saliva. But I can mash all over it and squeeze it an everything and she just stands there. But I don't care what she looks like she's my girl now


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Yay Keren! Happy day!


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