# Owning Goats in the City?



## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

Does anyone here live in a heavily urban area with Nigerian Dwarfs, Pygmies, mini-Nubians, etc.? I'm slowly making headway on purchasing two ND wethers as pets, but I unfortunately live fence-to-fence with my neighbors' properties on a 7000 sq ft. plot in the heart of Los Angeles. I have no idea how loud the goats would be, if they'd smell, be a nuisance, or really do anything that would make a neighbor complain. Are there any resources for city goat owners I could potentially look into? I really want to own pet goats; I think they're cute, funny, and intelligent animals, and I'd love to give two boys a good home if I could.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You better make sure you are zoned for livestock. If you aren't, the city can make you get rid of them.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

They will be a nuisance to your neighbors for sure. They are meant to keep busy grazing/browsing more than 6 hours a day, if they don't have the space to do that, they find other things to do, which may include screaming for their human to come entertain them. 

But yes, I doubt your local zoning regulations allow for livestock animals.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

This is liberal Los Angeles though..wait..sorry LOL.

I will say if I were, stay away from Bucks. Does and Pygmy or Nigis, but probably pygmy with those close quarters.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

If you are zoned for livestock and end up getting a pair of wethered males , which would be best, think about what is within your fenceline for the goats to eat. The best for them is the bushes and brambles you see on the hill sides on the interstate.
Here we have lush grasses and weeds, yet goats want the bushes.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

yes, you would want wetherd males, does can be temperamental when cycling, (PMS (headsmash)) sometimes very loud, wethers don't smell, but do check your zoning


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Good call on the Does yall.


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> You better make sure you are zoned for livestock. If you aren't, the city can make you get rid of them.


I called LA Animal Services and the City Planning Offices, and both said that there are no laws in place prohibiting the ownership of miniature goats as pets in residential zoned areas. They basically would classify as any outdoor pet, like dogs or rabbits, and be subject to the same limitations. Luckily LA doesn't have strict rules against domestic animals (nearby West Hollywood actually allows pygmy goats explicitly) so hopefully there won't be an issue as long as they stay quiet outside of feeding time.


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> They will be a nuisance to your neighbors for sure. They are meant to keep busy grazing/browsing more than 6 hours a day, if they don't have the space to do that, they find other things to do, which may include screaming for their human to come entertain them.
> 
> But yes, I doubt your local zoning regulations allow for livestock animals.


Would giving free-choice grass help mitigate the grazing issue? I want to put various things for them to play on and jump off of in their pen, so hopefully they wouldn't get too bored without me being there during the day.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

You may want to look into a Bermuda grass for them so they have good foliage to eat.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

a good branch every few days would also help a lot, they would eat the leaves and bark, and may chew on the wood


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

MadCatX said:


> You may want to look into a Bermuda grass for them so they have good foliage to eat.


Would orchard grass be OK? That's what I was planning on giving them, and what the breeder I visited fed as well. It's easier to find that in SoCal than Bermuda.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Orchard is fine. You will want to read up on proper diet for wethers.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

I dont feed grass, just alfalfa, I would feed them (especially wethers) at least some alfalfa (to help prevent UC)


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

You will want hay - not cut fresh grass for goats, a nice shelter, toys (not too close to the fence), loose minerals, fresh water and a very tight fencing structure. Make sure no one can get to them and feed them when you are not home. Well intentioned people can cause a lot of harm. You may still have noise from them.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

A while back I found this website started by a lady who raises goats in Seattle. Maybe it would contain some resources and information that would help you. Also it's got a pretty sweet domain name (thumbup). Here's the link http://goatjusticeleague.org/ .


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

goatblessings said:


> You will want hay - not cut fresh grass for goats, a nice shelter, toys (not too close to the fence), loose minerals, fresh water and a very tight fencing structure. Make sure no one can get to them and feed them when you are not home. Well intentioned people can cause a lot of harm. You may still have noise from them.


I'd be penning them under a concord grape vine arbor in my backyard, so no one would be able to get to them or throw things into their space. I expect them to make some noise, but as long as they aren't screaming 24/7 or yelling at night the neighbors shouldn't complain.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

I will defer to the orchard. I dont think grape vines are bad for goats but if they can get to them, or close to them..they will probably try to eat them lol. Goats have an ability to get to places...you would never imagine. Their dexterity is second to none lol..


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

AspiringGoatGuy said:


> Would giving free-choice grass help mitigate the grazing issue? I want to put various things for them to play on and jump off of in their pen, so hopefully they wouldn't get too bored without me being there during the day.


Giving them hay and toys will certainly help! You'll have to be very careful with their weight, Nigerians are infamous for their tendency to get obese. I'm not trying to be a total negative nancy here and crush your dreams! It's just still keeping an animal that is meant to range and move all day (think: nibble, walk to the next tree/shrub/grass, nibble, walk, nibble, walk) in 0.17 acre. Perhaps you can leash train them well enough to go for walks on the sidewalk! Rides in the car! Trips to the pet or farm store 

I mean, it's the people that have dogs and they just keep them in the house and let them outside to go to the bathroom. Is the dog loved, fed, alive, and has a home? Yes. Is it "living it's best life" so to speak? Heck no. They are made to move miles and explore surroundings every day.


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Giving them hay and toys will certainly help! You'll have to be very careful with their weight, Nigerians are infamous for their tendency to get obese. I'm not trying to be a total negative nancy here and crush your dreams! It's just still keeping an animal that is meant to range and move all day (think: nibble, walk to the next tree/shrub/grass, nibble, walk, nibble, walk) in 0.17 acre. Perhaps you can leash train them well enough to go for walks on the sidewalk! Rides in the car! Trips to the pet or farm store
> 
> I mean, it's the people that have dogs and they just keep them in the house and let them outside to go to the bathroom. Is the dog loved, fed, alive, and has a home? Yes. Is it "living it's best life" so to speak? Heck no. They are made to move miles and explore surroundings every day.


I would definitely try to leash train them and give them walks on weekends, and take them into the Hollywood Hills for daytime hikes along some of the trails up there. I know it's a small lot, but I want to help them be as happy as possible and give them exercise every week. Both of my cars are hatchbacks so I can put some tarp down and drive them around if need be; hopefully they'd get used to the Los Angeles traffic lol.

Lots of people in my neighborhood own dogs, so there's a large population of urban animals living in my area. I'd want to keep my Nigerians on a short leash so they don't get scared by any cars or canines that stray too close, but luckily there aren't any strays where I live, only pets.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Be very careful no dog can get to your goats. Even medium size dogs will kill a goat. The nice family pet will go after a goat in a second. Dogs are the number one killer of pet goats. 

I am not trying to dissuade you, just asking things you may not have considered. What are you going to do about manure disposal? Would the breeder take them back if it doesn't work out for you? 
Do you have (or will get) a vet that knows a little about goats? Goats do not have an "off" button when it comes to eating grain, so be sure and lock up any feed! (A lot of people do not realize this, to the poor goats detriment. They will eat themselves to death!) 

I really am not trying to be negative, just offering questions. 

Happy goating!


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

Goats Rock said:


> Be very careful no dog can get to your goats. Even medium size dogs will kill a goat. The nice family pet will go after a goat in a second. Dogs are the number one killer of pet goats.
> 
> I am not trying to dissuade you, just asking things you may not have considered. What are you going to do about manure disposal? Would the breeder take them back if it doesn't work out for you?
> Do you have (or will get) a vet that knows a little about goats? Goats do not have an "off" button when it comes to eating grain, so be sure and lock up any feed! (A lot of people do not realize this, to the poor goats detriment. They will eat themselves to death!)
> ...


I'll only let a dog get close to my goats if I'm there supervising. I've heard stories of pet dogs being left alone with minis and getting a taste for goat blood, so I would keep my goats right next to me on walks and keep a close eye on anyone else's pets.
For manure, I'm planning on hosing down their living area and dumping any dung not absorbed by the soil into the yard waste bin that gets taken by the city every week. I wasn't planning on giving them grain since I've heard it can increase the chances of UC in wethers, and if things really didn't work out I would contact my breeder and see if they could be rehomed somewhere. I'm still working on finding a vet in my area that can do goat calls.
I appreciate the questions! It helps me be prepared


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## 15WildTurkey (Apr 13, 2015)

Strong fences. 
When my 2 girls are stuck in their small yard for a couple of days they get rowdy. They will hurl themselves at fences and use them like a spring board. I’ve had to reset fence posts and even seen my goats stroll by my kitchen window when they busted the gate. If the space is too small I can see them being like the raptors in Jurassic park. They will wear down the fence every single day if they are bored.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

Hello fellow urban goat person! I'm also in california and I have goats in an urban area. I would advise against Nigerian dwarfs or nubians because they tend to be loud. Oberhasli wethers would be your best choice because they are super quiet. Yes, they are bigger than Nigerians, but not that much bigger. 

About the feed, here on the west coast, orchard grass is the norm. It has about 1:1 calcium phosphorous ratio and around 10% protein. Alfalfa is also available and it has about 20-24% protein and a 4:1 calcium phosphorous ratio. If you feed your wethers half orchard, half alfalfa, they will have the correct calcium phosphorus ratio to prevent stones, but they will be getting more than the necessary amount of protein, so grain will not be necessary. Another thing to note in california is that we have very deficient selenium in soils. That means the hay you buy will not supply their daily requirements of selenium. So even if you have a loose goat mineral, it may not be enough. 

As for the smell aspect of goats, california is so dry, they only really smell after it rains and then gets sunny. As long as you keep their area swept up you should be fine.


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

NicoleV said:


> Hello fellow urban goat person! I'm also in california and I have goats in an urban area. I would advise against Nigerian dwarfs or nubians because they tend to be loud. Oberhasli wethers would be your best choice because they are super quiet. Yes, they are bigger than Nigerians, but not that much bigger.
> 
> About the feed, here on the west coast, orchard grass is the norm. It has about 1:1 calcium phosphorous ratio and around 10% protein. Alfalfa is also available and it has about 20-24% protein and a 4:1 calcium phosphorous ratio. If you feed your wethers half orchard, half alfalfa, they will have the correct calcium phosphorus ratio to prevent stones, but they will be getting more than the necessary amount of protein, so grain will not be necessary. Another thing to note in california is that we have very deficient selenium in soils. That means the hay you buy will not supply their daily requirements of selenium. So even if you have a loose goat mineral, it may not be enough.
> 
> As for the smell aspect of goats, california is so dry, they only really smell after it rains and then gets sunny. As long as you keep their area swept up you should be fine.


Unfortunately, just because of my space limitations I think I can only afford to get mini goats (even though Oberhasli seem pretty great too). If my property was bigger I'd love to get a full-size breed!
Are Nigerians known for their volume? The ones I've seen at the breeder's and the LA Zoo haven't made much noise, but that might just be their individual temperaments. Hopefully if they do talk a lot they don't raise their voices!

That's really good advice about going 50-50 orchard-alfalfa to avoid urinary calculi. Would alfalfa pellets also be usable for the 4:1 phosphorous effect? What do you do to supplement selenium levels? Is it something that can be sprinkled on top of loose mineral, or do they need to be fed vitamins to make up for the deficiency?


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Uh, well I have a Nigi Buck. I can hear him from about 100 ft or more when he gets crunk up. If hes rutty...or smells another animal in heat, he gets rowdy and loud.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

for selenium, you can get Bo-Se from your vet, it is an injection, or selenium vit E paste from the farm store, I like Bo-Se, others prefer the paste, the injection is much stronger so it has to be strictly dosed, goats have a high metabolism so if they are bad deficient oral paste is not going to be enough, but it can keep them at a good level if started before they get bad deficient.

Alfalfa pellets will work to add calcium to there diet, as long as they get the long rough fiber to digest right, what I would do if you want to go that rout, is keep the orchard hay free choice, and give them a measured amount of alfalfa pellets once or twice a day like you would give grain (without giving grain)

Each animal is different, some are loud some are not, just ask the breeder about noise and spend time with there stock, if there herd is quiet most likely the kids will be two, they learn from there mom/family


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All really good advice.


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

You've gotten a lot of good advice. My Nigerians have about 3 acres at their disposal and they YELL when they see me outside if they think they are hungry. I have heard that that might be because mine are used to getting grain, so they get more greedy than goats that just have hay, so maybe you wouldn't have that problem... No reason to scream at you for treats I guess! I would definitely recommend not getting bottle babies. My bottle baby wether would seriously SCREAM every time he saw me at the house for months before he got the idea that I would no longer be bringing him bottles!


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

cbrossard said:


> You've gotten a lot of good advice. My Nigerians have about 3 acres at their disposal and they YELL when they see me outside if they think they are hungry. I have heard that that might be because mine are used to getting grain, so they get more greedy than goats that just have hay, so maybe you wouldn't have that problem... No reason to scream at you for treats I guess! I would definitely recommend not getting bottle babies. My bottle baby wether would seriously SCREAM every time he saw me at the house for months before he got the idea that I would no longer be bringing him bottles!


Do your Nigis yell when you're not around? If my Nigerians made the bulk of their noise only when I was there that wouldn't be too bad; the neighbor's chihuahua already growls and screams whenever she sees me get too close lol. At the moment I'm planning on getting bottle babies since I heard they can be friendlier and more pet-like, which my roommates and I appreciate. Does your bottle baby still yell at you when he sees you?


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

my dam raised kids are more friendly than most bottle raised kids here in my neck of the woods


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

spidy1 said:


> my dam raised kids are more friendly than most bottle raised kids here in my neck of the woods


Interesting, do you spend a lot of time with them and handle them from birth so they become socialized? Or do they just turn out that way?


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

both, I have found a super sweet bloodline and spend every minuet I can with then, how can you not they are SOOO cute!!!


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

AspiringGoatGuy said:


> Do your Nigis yell when you're not around? If my Nigerians made the bulk of their noise only when I was there that wouldn't be too bad; the neighbor's chihuahua already growls and screams whenever she sees me get too close lol. At the moment I'm planning on getting bottle babies since I heard they can be friendlier and more pet-like, which my roommates and I appreciate. Does your bottle baby still yell at you when he sees you?


No, they are pretty quiet when I'm not around... just when theysee me they start complaining. And yes, I was thinking that goat noise wouldn't be worse than dogs barking!

Bottle babies are very friendly, but as others mentioned, dam raised babies can be just as friendly as long as they are handled a lot from birth. All of my goats are super sweet and friendly and only the one was a bottle baby. If you decide to go the dam-raised route, this is what I would do. Go visit the mom and kids and see if mom lets you go right up and pet her (or does she need to be coerced with treats) Some kids will come right up to you, and some don't, that's just personality and how frisky they are feeling, but you should be able to catch them fairly easily and pick them up without them struggling or crying, if they are used to being handled.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

In addition to BoSe from the vet, you can use selenium yeast powder, but you have to give it to them pretty much everyday. Just find a convenient way to feed them the powder, but you have to dose it correctly according to the label. The legal dose is so little (0.3 mg per head per day) that you can't overdo it if you are in a deficient area and you follow directions.


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## Nudanud (Mar 1, 2018)

I'm sure it wouldn't work for you just because where would you go with the fiber but, 
one of the guys we buy hay from has Angora goats and those things NEVER make a sound. 
It's kind of eerie actually...they just poke their heads up and you've got all these eyes following you around but..not..one..peep...


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## Noahsoak (Sep 16, 2013)

What's the size area they will be housed in? Definitely get Nigerians or pygmys. Wethered goats and does (females) do not smell, at all. Bucks smell because they douse themselves in urine; that's their mating cologne, so to speak. Pygmys are a bit smaller than Nigerians, might be a better option. You will have to do hoof trimming once a month and injections once a year. Plan on taking temps when necessary and dealing with issues if they do get sick. They are hardy, but sometimes they have issues.

What sort of landscaping do you have? Goats can get into trouble eating poisonous plants. 
Know what you have! 

Check your local zoning laws. Be prepared for care taking every day. If you want to get away for a weekend, you'll need someone to take care of your goats.


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

Noahsoak said:


> What's the size area they will be housed in? Definitely get Nigerians or pygmys. Wethered goats and does (females) do not smell, at all. Bucks smell because they douse themselves in urine; that's their mating cologne, so to speak. Pygmys are a bit smaller than Nigerians, might be a better option. You will have to do hoof trimming once a month and injections once a year. Plan on taking temps when necessary and dealing with issues if they do get sick. They are hardy, but sometimes they have issues.
> 
> What sort of landscaping do you have? Goats can get into trouble eating poisonous plants.
> Know what you have!
> ...


I have a 200 sq. foot sleeping / eating area planned out for them that I will fence them in during the day, and in the evening I'd let them out to roam around in a 2000 sq. foot backyard. The breeder I'm in contact with has agreed to sell me two Nigerian wethers next year. Are pygmy goats significantly smaller than Nigerians? It's hard to find pygmy breeders in SoCal, but I could try. Hoof trimmings and injections are something I'm going to have to learn more about before and after I get my wethers. How often do goats get sick?

The only potentially poisonous plant I have on my property is an old loquat tree. I'm unsure if loquats are toxic to goats or not, but I will try to keep them from eating any of the pits or wilted leaves.

I already called the city about zoning in my R1 residential lot for goats, and they basically said as long as they're quiet and no one complains there won't be an issue. I talked to the director of Animal Services and even she could only cite one law regarding the distance a structure for goats should be from dwellings, so it seems like LA is pretty lax on this.

I have a couple of roommates who are down with me getting goats, so hopefully if it's just refilling the boys' hay / water and taking them out on walks it wouldn't be too much of a hassle. I don't think I'd want to take any vacations for the first 12 months though; getting them through that first year is crucial.


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## Noahsoak (Sep 16, 2013)

Google the loquat tree and know for sure. You really won't be able to keep leaves, etc from them. Try as you might, they may not like it, but better to know going in.

Goats don't get into trouble often, but it happens and you have to be alert to that. Their rumens are delicate too much of the wrong thing can get them into trouble.

Good homes for goats are awesome. Keep doing your homework, get a good goat health care book. your local goat person should be a good mentor.  Goat Health Care by Cheryl K. smith is my favorite.

As already said, never give goats cut grass! They can eat all the grass they want on their own, but not grass you've cut and raked up.


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

Noahsoak said:


> Google the loquat tree and know for sure. You really won't be able to keep leaves, etc from them. Try as you might, they may not like it, but better to know going in.
> 
> Goats don't get into trouble often, but it happens and you have to be alert to that. Their rumens are delicate too much of the wrong thing can get them into trouble.
> 
> ...


Some people say loquat trees are toxic and others claim their goats have demolished entire fallen loquat trees so it is hard to tell. My tree doesn't drop many leaves; birds and squirrels eat the fruit and leave the pits on the ground though. Might just fence off the whole thing if it becomes an issue.

I plan on free-choice feeding them orchard grass and storing the bales in my garage to avoid mold. I wasn't gonna give em lawn grass clippings since second or first-cut hay seems to be the best thing for them.

Do you know if minis are noisy breeds, or would they stay quietly happy in a pen with free food and fresh water? I'd be getting bottle babies, so if they're loud when they see me that's fine, but I don't think the neighborhood would like it if they screamed at all hours of the day.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Almost all goats will call to their owner. If for some reason the goats get hungry they will holler for you until you feed them.


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

Dwarf Dad said:


> Almost all goats will call to their owner. If for some reason the goats get hungry they will holler for you until you feed them.


Makes sense, I'm gonna keep em on free-choice grass so hopefully they don't get hungry during the day while I'm at work. I hope they talk while I'm around though lol, goats make cute sounds.


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## Nudanud (Mar 1, 2018)

At what age are you planning to get them? 
Our first four goats were all bottle babies (two day olds and two older..all bucklings) 
and they were VERY loud when they were ready for another bottle...which they should have at least 3 times a day for at least a few weeks..
(it might be more..I defer to those older and wiser than I) 

Anyway, the point being, they might be crying quite loudly for awhile before you get home from work if they are wanting their bottle. They won't even start nibbling hay for a couple week so it won't help...

And personality also plays into how loud they are.. I have seen some goats that are vocal no matter what human they see and some that wait surprisingly patiently..for a goat.


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## AspiringGoatGuy (Mar 6, 2019)

Nudanud said:


> At what age are you planning to get them?
> Our first four goats were all bottle babies (two day olds and two older..all bucklings)
> and they were VERY loud when they were ready for another bottle...which they should have at least 3 times a day for at least a few weeks..
> (it might be more..I defer to those older and wiser than I)
> ...


I'm gonna get them when they're about 6-8 weeks old, so hopefully they'll be already eating hay by then. The breeder told me they'd need to be bottle fed twice a day, so I'd feed 'em once in the morning and once at night while leaving out free choice orchard in between. From where I pen them they really won't be able to see anyone who doesn't walk directly by their area, so unless they yell unprovoked I'm hoping they don't make too much noise. Do genetics play a role in how loud a Nigi is, or is it just luck of the draw?


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

all I can say is spend time with the parents, if they are quiet the kids probably will be two, I would go spend at least 1 hour with them (parents) before feeding time, that is when they will normally talk alot, and stay through feeding to see how they respond to people pestering them while they are trying to eat. then you will know, this will be SOOOOO exciting for you!!!


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