# Goat not doing well after banding horns



## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

Well I'm not sure IF there is anything wrong but my doe is acting REALLY off.

I banded her horns 3 weeks ago and she was a drama queen about it. Ever since she has been staying back away from the other goats and avoiding me at all costs. I assumed this was due to her head being sore.

Slowly her appetite has been going down hill and now she is hardly eating. She is obviously losing weight. She is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to catch without a spare hand or two. Tomorrow I'm going to move her into a 6X10 dog run so I can evaluate her better.

I took her temp 2 days ago and it was normal. She has been standing far away with her back arched and her tail tucked down. Her fur seems a little ruffled. She was eating fine until 2 days ago. If even topped her food tonight with a little chicken crumbles (She used to go NUTS to get to it) in hopes to encourage her to eat. She only nibbled on a little sudan hay. She even turned down alfalfa. 

2 days ago I checked her horns closely. There is no smell and overall the bands appears to be doing there job. One horn is making much more progress then the other.

Tomorrow I'm going to TS to see if the have an injectable Vitamin B... Is there anything else I should get? Should I start antibiotics? Or is she just feeling terrible since the bands are making there way deep into the horn?


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

check her temp again. 
probiotics if you have no Vit B complex but then get vit B complex. 
Do you have banamie? if she is in a lot of pain I might give her a shot of that after taking temp.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

I know nothing about banding horns but I would definately offer pain medication. She could just be very painful, as it sounds like you have ruled out any infection. 

Keeping her pain free will give her back her appetite. Without the will to eat her rumen will shut down-so do treat her with probiotics and such until she feels well enough to eat again. I would also drench her w/the alfalfa pellet mash that some of the others have mentioned on this board before. Give her some nutri-drench too.


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## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

Okay, this goat has me so stressed out.

I KNEW there was a risk of her breaking her horn off to soon. She hasn't broken it off completely but when we were to catch her this afternoon she jerked her head back and loosened the horn. She didn't lose too much blood.... Probably less then 6ccs but it was VERY bright red & THICK. It was squarting straight out. I used a little blood stop powder which I think helped it stop.

Needless to say after all of this to catch her we never got a temp on her. Letting her relax a bit in her new pen. The horn is still dripping a little blood but very slowly.

I have called every feed store within at least an hour of my house and NO one has Vit B injectables. I have one store bring me a bottle from an out of town store but it wont be in until tomorrow. I went ahead and purchased Goats Perfer probiotic plus paste for tonight. She did nibble on some alfalfa and I let her have access to a grassy pasture all day while I was out running around. She *looks* like she has been eating a little today.

*IF* the horn breaks off too soon and she starts bleeding really bad what should I do? Attempt to pack the open wound to stop the bleeding? It appears that the band is over 1/2 way through the horn.


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

In my experience pain was the cause of standing "off".
As far as "shooting" blood loss, if it continues that can be an emergency and requires intervention to stop it. I'm guessing if pressure cannot make it stop a vet will need to either cauterize or pack pressure. I guess worst case I would attempt to pack if ecessive bleeding without stopping (or shooting blood). I would rush to a vet in that case though.
Hydration/ fluids is important if she lost a good amount of blood. I did electrolytes (and I had saline for subQ, but I'm assuming you don't) my goats like gatoraid watered down, so that's a possibility.
I would be very mindful of the risk of infection, mine maintained a low grade temp from infection from the banding and early horn loss and required antibiotics. My vet ended up cutting the bands off to correct the situation, but that was from unsuccessful procedure, not sure if that would be the same for you...Just my thoughts from my experience...
Good luck with this.
Caryn


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

Do the feed stores have vitamin B complex? Usually all of them do (just vitamin b is a prescription product-I believe)

Do you have banamine for the pain? 

I wonder if the others might now, could you use a bayer asprin for the pain? My little buckling was soooo painful after his 1st vaccines. I gave him 1/4 of an 81mg bayer asprin (powdered in some water I squirted in his mouth) and he layed down-slept and was soo much better. I kept him on this dose every 6 hours for 48 hrs then he was all better.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

If the bleeding has subsided, the discomfort itself will keep her from bumping her head...also, I would not give aspirin at this point...it is an anti coagulant in humans and I would think it would do the same in an animal...you definately don't want to thin her blood. Offer her anything that she willingly will drink..getting her fluid level up will help with any blood loss and I'm guessing that because the horn itself was weakend at the base due to the band, the break may or may not cause that horn to come off totally very soon. IF there is another occurance with a serious bleed...vet care should be sought out as too much blood loss will cause shock and death.
My mom's ND cross doe did this a week after banding her horns only she took the entire horn off, there was bleeding but it did subside though she was subdued for a few days...silly girl felt well enough a week later to play headbutt with a herdmate and took the other one off too...she screamed in pain and there was bleeding but she's fine now and does have scur type protrusions on her head...I think because she broke them off instead of them coming off with the band. That was over 2 years ago.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

Good save Liz on the asprin--I did not consider that. Yes, def. don't give aspirin then.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

I am sorry you and your doe are having to go through this. I do not have anything to add to the advice given. I just hope she improves soon and your stress level can drop.


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## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

Hum, well at the moment I'm pleasantly surprised.

The bleeding has totally stopped and she let me clean her up a bit. She also seems to be feeling much better. Her tail is no longer tucked under and she is standing normally. She also ate a little on her own.

I was terrified to try and put the probiotic plus paste in her mouth so I mixed it with just a little bit of chicken layer (of all the foods...that's her weakness!) She gobbled most of it right down... no fuss. As we speak she is munching on Sudan hay. So strange... I would have thought that she would be worse!!! She really seems to feel better!

Good thing I didn't give her any aspirin... I had it all crushed up and mixed ready to give it to her when her horn broke.

What do you think from the photo? Should I be in the clear from any major bleeding? The horn should fall off soon too, right? Once this one is off I think I Need to reband her other horn... It has not made ANY progress since about day 12.


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

Sounds like break may have relieved some pressure and thus relieved some pain.
From the photo it looks like its pinched itself off, hopefully it stays that way, she may re-hit it, as long as it's not a lot of blood, it may re-bleed and be okay.
Glad she seems to feel better, I would keep it clean and keep monitoring temp.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

She looks good! The band is working and will continue to work...I do however think I'd wait to reband the other til this one is off and healed, also...in a pinch for bleeding, you can use standard white flour for baking to act as a blood stop powder if you have none. Just pour it on til it cakes up


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## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

Okay, I am home with injectable B Vitamins. I hope they are the right ones as they are the ONLY ones I could find locally.. haha they actually came from 2 small towns away.

They are "High Level Vitamin B Complex" by Durvet. They say for cattle, swine & sheep.

This afternoon I checked her temp and it was 101.7. That's when she was laying down resting in the shade (its mid 70's outside). I also managed to get a good dose of the Probiotics Plus down her. She is nibbling on and off but not eating well. Not touching any grain today but nibbling on alfalfa & sudan hay. She has a mix of 1/2 water & 1/2 Gatorade. She is not drinking as well as I would like but she is still drinking.

Should I give the B Vitamins? If so how much? Is Sub Q okay or does it have to be in the muscle?

Also I sprayed the open horn with wound kote (the purple spray). It's not bleeding. (has not bled since yesterday) but it is oozing a small amount of clear white liquid. Was that okay? How often should I do that?

Thanks for all the help! I'm happy that banding her horns has finally brought peace around here for my other goats but I still feel terrible going through the whole process!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

She sounds as though she's doing fine...the B complex can be given SQ but works faster if given IM...give her the sheep dose, it will help stimulate her appetite...you cannot OD her with it, whatever her body doesn't use she'll pee out...and it does make the urine an orange color so don't be alarmed if this happens.


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## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

Thank you Liz


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

You are very welcome!! Her color puts me in mind of my old doe Bootsie...really sweet looking girl you have there.

The does who's horns I banded is part of a "brush goat herd" and though did act a little depressed after the banding, just like your doe...she came around pretty quickly with little interferance from my mom...when she had a day or 2 like yours when she didn't feel much like eating, my mom would hand feed her whatever she wanted, once the discomfort lessened, she was back to herself. Your doe looks bright eyed and healthy, keep doing as you are and she'll come through well and happy...and hornless.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

I am so glad to hear your girl is doing better-she does look very sweet. She is very pretty too!

Sorry about the asprin mix-up. I feel bad I almost caused you to do something that would not be benificial for your girl. I never though of the blood thining power of the asprin. Luckily when I used it that was not an issue, but that bit of advice I wont forget. :grouphug: That is why this board is so great!


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

Just curious, have you checked her eyelids? Is there a chance of a worm load in this doe? I'd think something else was going on...I've banded a few goats horns and they never even seemed to notice the bands had been put on. I haven't had one that acted "off" even for a few minutes...... 
With her temp being normal I wouldn't think pneumonia or anything but does she have any other symptoms besides lack of appetite? 
Is there a chance that after her horns were banded she stopped using them to defend herself and was then bullied away from the hay feeders? 
Just thinking out loud here...... :whatgoat:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Alot of great advice given.... :thumb: 

I am praying that things will be OK..... :hug: ray:


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## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

Her eyelids appear about the same as they always have. Kind of a medium shade of pink. I compared her's to my other does and they all appear very close in shades. I'm still new to goats so I'm not sure just how dark pink/red they should be? They definitely have what I would consider good color to them...

She was JUST wormed with Equamax 3X 10 days apart. (Got her last does a few days after her horns were banded. I didn't think any of the girls had worms but I wanted everyone to have a good worming before breeding. (But then breeding got postponed)

I'm fairly certain this is all from the horn banding. She was FINE up until the moment I banded her. I got her up on the milking stand, gave her 2 aspirin (the dose our vet recommended), took about 20 minutes to carefully shave around her horns & put duck tape on them. She was happily munching on hay the whole time & enjoying being petted. I put the top bands on 1st and she was fine. Then when I put the bottom band on each horn...within seconds of the last band she FLIPPED out. I had to take her to the back away from where anyone could see. She spent 90 minutes in a PANIC! She was screaming, slamming her head into things, at one time she ended up laid out on the ground not moving. There were points I had to physically restrain her because I was scared she was going to seriously injure herself. She was even flipping herself over backwards jumping in the air. She really scared me because I thought I did something wrong  I thought she was going to have a heart attack. After 90 minutes she calmed down enough to be alone in her shed without causing herself injury and about another hour later she finally started staggering around looking pathetic. Ever since she has been staying away from the herd. She has not even attempted to ram another goat since putting the bands on. (She used to be a really BIG bully always ramming other animals. The other goats are still afraid of her. If she turns in there direction they move out of her way.) Every day she would just be off away from everyone. I'm sure she always had access to feed because I tie everyone up at grain time. Plus they have access to a hay station for each goats. (No one here likes to share :laugh: )

Tonight she seems to be coming around a little more. I didn't get anymore B into her today because she will not let me handle her without freaking out. As long as I am OUTSIDE of her pen she is fine. If I walk in she starts freaking out. I tried to do the Probiotic paste but that sent her into a frenzy. Decided she is doing good enough without it. She is eating hay well (just not grain). Been munching all day on Sudan & Alfalfa/Timothy Mix. Drinking water & even took some loose minerals. She seems alert and in less pain. Her 2nd horn has started to make noticeable progress almost overnight. 
ray: this will all be over soon. I postponed banding out bucklings horns. I'm just so scared his will be this traumatic. I also decided I don't think I can do this to my other doe. She is so sweet. She is even relatively gentle with her horns. I've read that they can be in pain from the banding but I never expected a goat to act this bad.... that or I just have a goat who thinks she is a drama queen :roll:


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## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

Just wondering, if it was worms would her eye lids definitely be off colored? Maybe she has a mild worm load but the stress of banding is weakening her immune system? Just a thought that maybe the stress of the bands has made something flare up? She did have a mild cough before I wormed her 3X. She has had it on and off since I got her. I noticed it went away after the 1st time I wormed her with Ivomec several months ago but eventually it came back. Just a dry cough that would come and go. It has completely stopped since she got the Ivomec 3X. I was wondering if it could have been lung worm? My local vet wont do a fecal on goats and the 2 live stock vets are over an hour away. (Also I'm not a fan of either of the livestock vets. I have seen them both and they are not too familiar with goats. I found them less then helpful)

I got more probiotics in her today. She is still refusing grain but she is nibbling on the hay. Her horn is just hanging and I'm trying to keep from messing with her too much until it comes off. She seems to be in okay spirits. She was up and alert this morning. Started calling to me when she saw me come outside. Her poop is a little off today. Dark elongated pellets that are slightly stuck together. Her horn is starting to smell just a little if you are up really close to it. Other then that she seems to be feeling better. No longer has her tail tucked under. I thought about letting her out to browse today but I don't want to risk the horn breaking off if she plays hard to catch tonight. Going to try to take her out on a leash today and see how she acts.

Here are a few photos from today. How bad is her body condition looking? To me she looks bad. She never used to have the obvious dips on her hips  She has never been chunky but always had what I thought was a healthy weight.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Looks like it will come off soon. I would spray a bunch more BlueKote on there to help prevent infection.
Lungworms don't usually show up on a fecal check but Ivermectin should kill them. I always worm at least 2x 7-10 days apart sometimes 3 times total to get all hatching eggs. 
All my goats have a bit different eyelid color with no worms so I find it hard to go just by that. The stress of all this does make her more susceptible to worms overload. If she were mine and I couldn't get a fecal done I would worm her 2x 7-10 days apart and be sure to not underdose.


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## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

Just wondering... does the bluekote stuff burn? When I put it on her last time she screamed and freaked out really bad. Took her about 10 minutes to calm down and stop trying rub her head on everything. I have been hesitant to put more on her. Tonight I caught her to give a B Complex shot and she paniced before I could give her the injection... managed to break the other horn  More bleeding .... didn't give her the shot. :hair: 

Can I put some of the B Complex in her water? I know it wont work as well but is it bad for her?


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Yes, blue kote can sting. B-complex orally is just broken down by the rumen. It's better injected.


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## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

GREAT news!!!

Went out with the can of BlueKote... went to opened the gate she freaked & ran. Not sure if she hit the fence or just the force of her running but BOTH horns came off! The one that broke a few days ago only had a spot of blood. The other one has a little pool of blood where it came off but it stopped right away. She didn't even scream or anything! She is now munching on hay. I think the worst is finally over!!! :leap: I was so scared there was going to be a lot more blood!!!

SO relieved!!! Now I'm assuming all I need to do is keep infection & bugs out? Now I wont be so scared of spraying the bluekote on her!


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

:leap: Wonderful! 
Yep keep infection and bugs away and all should be good.


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