# Will adding a goat help or hurt?



## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

I’d appreciate some advice about pygmy social dynamics so I can make sure both my girls are happy.

I have two pygmy girls - Izzy is about 2.5 years old and ~55lbs and the Penny is about 2 years old and ~30lbs (she’s been to the vet and they said she’s healthy, just a really tiny goat). They’ve lived together about 1.5 years. Izzy has always been the boss but it seemed to work out. I feed them separately so Penny gets enough food and I make sure to give them both affection (although sometimes I give Penny attention behind Izzy’s back so she doesn’t butt in). They used to play quite a bit and seemed to have a sort of mother/daughter relationship.

However, it seems that in the past few months Penny has seemed more skittish and distant and Izzy has upped her dominance. They seem to play less and Penny just seems to have a more glassy look on her face - less engaged. She also seems lonelier and will just hang out with the chickens, with me projecting that she just wants someone to hang out with because Izzy is being a b*. Penny and Izzy do still get along but just don’t seem as close or connected anymore - more like two strangers. Her eating/pooping/etc has not changed. I will take her to the vet to rule something out. But I’m wondering whether this changed behavior could be due to to a changed dynamic between the two - that Penny is getting henpecked by Izzy too much. 

If that is the case, is there anything I can do to alter the dynamics so Penny is happier? Can I add another goat (or two) such that Penny will either not be the bottom or at least have a new friend? Unfortunately, due to her size and sweet disposition, Penny will always be near the bottom. Any other ideas?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you add goats, I would add 2. Is Izzy worse now about bullying?


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

ksalvagno said:


> If you add goats, I would add 2. Is Izzy worse now about bullying?


Yes, she seems more controlling with Penny and it seems that Penny has become more sensitive to the bullying. It could be a little bit of chicken and egg of which came first.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The other option would be to separate them for a period of time and see if she settles down.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

I vote for more goats. More goats is the answer to everything even if it solves nothing.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

More goats.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Whenever you ask us at TGS if you should get more goats, 99.99% of the time we will say "HECK YES!!". So as you can guess, my vote is for more goats as well!


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

Yep, I vote for the party of More Goatism lol. I would try, if you can, to get a sweet, docile, and calmer goat or two like Penny.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

I have found that the aggressive goats do settle down in a larger herd, though there will be some headbutting when you introduce new animals.


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## daisymay (Feb 13, 2017)

i didnt even read what you wrote i saw the headline and thought more goats..... yes i think it would actually help.my dominate doe i bought a few years ago was such a jerk she ended up making two young does lame from hitting so hard(she is a little 50 pound doe but hits low and hard), she didnt have this issue at her previous farm and she only seems to do it with goats that are weaned but younger then a year. i really would of sold her if my hubby didnt like her. she actually calmed down when i moved and have a larger doe herd. she is now like fourth in line, dont get me wrong she will still hit too hard if someone is in her way but she is not constantly doing it anymore. now my problem is the one young doe she made lame last year is now trying to be the boss and acting the same way.... i guess i should get more goats...hahaha.
let us know what you decide


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

ksalvagno said:


> The other option would be to separate them for a period of time and see if she settles down.


That is an interesting idea I hadn’t thought about. Thanks!


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> I vote for more goats. More goats is the answer to everything even if it solves nothing.


Haha! Thanks!


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

daisymay said:


> i didnt even read what you wrote i saw the headline and thought more goats..... yes i think it would actually help.my dominate doe i bought a few years ago was such a jerk she ended up making two young does lame from hitting so hard(she is a little 50 pound doe but hits low and hard), she didnt have this issue at her previous farm and she only seems to do it with goats that are weaned but younger then a year. i really would of sold her if my hubby didnt like her. she actually calmed down when i moved and have a larger doe herd. she is now like fourth in line, dont get me wrong she will still hit too hard if someone is in her way but she is not constantly doing it anymore. now my problem is the one young doe she made lame last year is now trying to be the boss and acting the same way.... i guess i should get more goats...hahaha.
> let us know what you decide


Do you think I there would be a real difference if I only added one or two? I don’t have the space to have a really large herd. And would you recommend older or younger?


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> I have found that the aggressive goats do settle down in a larger herd, though there will be some headbutting when you introduce new animals.





Goatastic43 said:


> Yep, I vote for the party of More Goatism lol. I would try, if you can, to get a sweet, docile, and calmer goat or two like Penny.


That is was what we were thinking. There is a rescue Nigerian that has lived her whole life alone and I was thinking she would not fight for alpha and would be more timid. Think that is a decent assessment?


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> More goats.


I should have realized who all I was asking, goat people!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I would add a wether and another small doe. I actually have reasons why lol. 
The wether will play with the young girl but, will also create a buffer for the timid does. They don't normally abide bullying well. They like peace in their herd.


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

goathiker said:


> I would add a wether and another small doe. I actually have reasons why lol.
> The wether will play with the young girl but, will also create a buffer for the timid does. They don't normally abide bullying well. They like peace in their herd.


I actually started out with Izzy and her brother Bo, a wether, but he acted like a buck and severely harassed her all the time. We thought he may have a non-descended third testicle but the vet did an ultrasound and could not find one. Basically, he was a hormonal a-hole. I had to return him to the breeder and that is when I got Penny as Izzy’s companion. Because of that experience I’m averse to a wether. I like the idea of smaller does but that would probably rule out Nigerians. Or do their temperaments differ such that a larger Nigerian would be a beta or omega to a smaller Pygmy?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

So how big is their pen? How much enrichment opportunities are offered? Are there cubbies for the small doe and climbing toys offered?


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

goathiker said:


> So how big is their pen? How much enrichment opportunities are offered? Are there cubbies for the small doe and climbing toys offered?


Their fully enclosed pen is approx 1k sq ft., which includes a fully covered area and what I call a "yard". That area has a lot of enrichment. I'm attaching some photos. For a few hours each day they have access to 1/2 acres of fenced hillside, which includes a lot of rocks, stairs, a deck, etc. that they play on. I also want to clarify that all Izzy does is push Penny away when Izzy wants her food or try to hog all the attention from the humans - she doesn't do anything truly violent. Penny is the one with the darker face and back and Izzy is the one on the deck.

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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You need to tie them to feed their grain and alfalfa pellets and create 3 separate places to put their hay. 
When you get another doe or two, just keep that up. They soon come in and stand in their place to be tied. 
I have 18 inch chains attached to the wall under each individual food dish. My goats and sheep are expecting to be clipped up before I bring in their ration.


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

goathiker said:


> You need to tie them to feed their grain and alfalfa pellets and create 3 separate places to put their hay.
> When you get another doe or two, just keep that up. They soon come in and stand in their place to be tied.
> I have 18 inch chains attached to the wall under each individual food dish. My goats and sheep are expecting to be clipped up before I bring in their ration.


I actually hand feed the grain to each of them to make sure they get equal amounts and put their alfalfa in three different areas. But, even when Izzy has alfalfa in one area, she might go to where Penny is eating hers and decide she wants to eat there instead. I think so much of this is just about getting attention. Izzy is actually really sweet, she just wants to be the center of attention so she pushes Penny to the wayside to get it.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Then you need to separate them. She is just a bully and if her brother was the same it's genetic. 
Really, your smaller goat is starving.


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

goathiker said:


> Then you need to separate them. She is just a bully and if her brother was the same it's genetic.
> Really, your smaller goat is starving.


The smaller goat came to me as an adult at this size and I have taken her to an expert goat vet and he confirmed she she was healthy and is just a runt. Perhaps I’m not being articulate enough in my question - the issue is really Penny’s mental state. She is going to the vet again next week to make sure there isn’t anything physical that is causing her pain or discomfort that would lead her to seem disengaged. I’ll keep y’all posted as to what he says.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

Tying them up at feeding time really does help. When the bossy ones realize they can't bully the others, everyone is more peaceful. I have some more timid goats who won't even eat their full ration until the others are tied. They are afraid of being bullied and would rather just not eat. They are also the ones who will not approach people if they know they'll be driven away by a more dominant goat. If I'm out in the pasture and I see a dominant goat really starting to beat up on the others, the dominant ones gets hollered at. They do not get positive attention when they're being jerks.
As for getting that other doe...it is hard to say. If she's been living on her own, there's no way to know if she will be good with your others or not. If you got a goat from another herd, you could at least know wether it was a more dominant goat in that herd or not.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with the others.


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## HBN (Jul 11, 2018)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> Tying them up at feeding time really does help. When the bossy ones realize they can't bully the others, everyone is more peaceful. I have some more timid goats who won't even eat their full ration until the others are tied. They are afraid of being bullied and would rather just not eat. They are also the ones who will not approach people if they know they'll be driven away by a more dominant goat. If I'm out in the pasture and I see a dominant goat really starting to beat up on the others, the dominant ones gets hollered at. They do not get positive attention when they're being jerks.
> As for getting that other doe...it is hard to say. If she's been living on her own, there's no way to know if she will be good with your others or not. If you got a goat from another herd, you could at least know wether it was a more dominant goat in that herd or not.


Thanks, I may try that. I agree about the unknowns on the other goat. I'd really prefer to rescue but there are also quite a few unknowns when doing that. My general fear is that I get more goats and Izzy gets bossier if she maintains alpha or takes it out on Penny if someone else becomes alpha. I have a friend with 4 Nigerians and one is such so dominant I feel bad for the other three. Of course, this is just me anthropomorphizing, they may not care  Penny will go to the vet next week to see if they can find anything that might be contributing to this. We'll see.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

One advantage of more goats is that you can give a "bad" goat a time out without punishing the other goat by leaving it by itself too.


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