# More advice needed.....xx



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

You wonderful people must be sick of me by now but I need some more help so I thought I'd start a new thread.

Short summary:

Teddy and Tumnus, 4.5 year old pygmy/nigerian cross. Teddy recently had SERIOUS UC, nearly died, got him through thank goodness! Vet has now advised to cut out ALL GRAIN.

Having cut out all grain, boys now eat hay, browse, BOSS and 2 oz Manna Pro Goat Balancer.

Both boys have, in the last week, lost massive amounts of hair and are now almost entirely bald other than their legs.....which are still fully furred.....and their face. Skin is clear of scabs, bumps or any sign of parasites.

This could be parasites though so have now treated with 4ml of Virbamec for cattle (ivermectin w/w 0.5%) as a pour on.

This could be nutritional deficiences now that grain and all its added goodness has been removed from diet.

To rectify this, I now have the following things but could really do with some advice as how much of each thing and how often it should be given as I am terrified over overdoing it somewhere!!

Alfalfa pellets
Pure coconut oil
Limestone (for horses)
BOSS
Copper sulphate (which says on the packet to seek IMMEDIATE MEDICAL ASSISTANCE if swallowed!!)

Codlivit with copper:

Oil 14% Vitamin K 70mg/kg 
Protein 4% Niacin 7 mg/kg 
Fibre 7% Pantothenate 
Calcium 9.6% Acid 670 mg/kg 
Phosphorus 5% Biotin 0.1mg 
Sodium 4% Iodine 385 mg/kg 
NUTRIMIN® 3% Iron 1,120 mg/kg 
Diamond V Yeast 3% 
Vitamin A 334,000 iu/kg Manganese 5,400 mg/kg 
Vitamin D3 67,000 iu/kg Selenium 12.5 mg/kg 
Vitamin E 835 iu/kg VETOXAN® 0.07% 
Vitamin B1 670 mg/kg Ash 47% 
B2 334 mcg/kg Copper 1,200 mg/kg 
Vitamin B12 670 mcg/kg Magnesium 0.09% 
Zinc 5,600 mg/kg Cobalt 85 mg/kg

Manna Pro Goat Balancer:

Crude Protein Min 20.00% (This includes no more than 2.0% from non-protein nitrogen.)  Crude Fat  Min 5.00% Crude Fiber  Max 15.00% Calcium Min 4.00% Calcium Max 5.00% Phosphorus Min​ 1.00%​ Salt Min 1.50% Salt Max 2.00% Copper Min 150 PPM Selenium Min 1.20 PPM Zinc Min 520 PPM Vitamin A Min 90,000 IU/LB Vitamin D Min 20,000 IU/LB Vitamin E Min 225 IU/LB


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Are you putting loose minerals out for them??? I have sooo been wrong in the past but I don't think they would loose their hair by removing their grain. A few things that come to mind is lice but the pour on you put on them would take care of that and a fungus of some kind. Our horses lost all their hair especially on their butt one winter and we were so confused. When we were talking to the man at the feed store he said there was a fungus on the trees and when the horses stand under the trees when it rains it gets onto them. If you could post pictures that might help with figuring it out.


----------



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

There are no 'loose minerals' available in the UK but they have a mineral lick in their shed....what I have listed above is all that I have and I believe it should cover everything but I'm just unsure of what quantities and whether to give all of the above or just some, as some of the things 'double up'.....for example, the Codlivit AND the Manna Pro have Copper in them so should I give one or both and then do I need the copper sulphate at all?? Oh...and the mineral lick has copper too, though they really don't touch it much at all.

They also BOTH have calcium in them but so does the limestone so which do I give and in what quantities?

The BOSS, Codlivit and coconut oil are all types of oil....will this just give them super shiny coats (assuming their coats grow back!) or will it just make them fat or loosen their stools?

The fungus thing is interesting....but there are no trees in or overhanging their paddock. I've also closely inspected their bedding and can see no sign of anything out of the ordinary. I shall try and get some pictures of them tomorrow but be warned, my poor babies are in a state!


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It could be they are shedding to be ready for spring. I use wheat germ oil for skin and hair issues that aren't related to parasites but certainly the oils you have can work too. Just give a little every day. It will take a long time for their new hair to grow in but with the oils, it should help the skin and hair.


----------



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

It is the right time for them to moult but never in the four and a half years that I've had them, have they shed ALL their hair....they usually shed their woolly undercoat and some longer guard hairs, leaving them with a still thick layer of shorter silky hair underneath. This time there is nothing underneath but the barest layer of two or three mm long, down....they look and feel like those Chinese Crested dogs which would be sooooo funny if I wasn't so worried sick!


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well the problem is over doing it on something if they really are not lacking that 'thing' most everything can be ODed on. Maybe ask the vet if a blood sample would tell you???? But honestly I have never heard of a goat loosing all their hair over missing something and I think it would take a really long time for that to happen. When did you do the pour on??? Maybe it was mites or lice and the pour on already covered it but hasn't been enough time for their hair to come back. Another thing that I just thought of....any chance something spilled on them....some type of chemicals??? A few months back when we were worming the cows I was on my horse and stepped into the shot of the wormer and my poor Sophie's hair fell off like your explaining with you goats but it was totally in a line of where it got her not all her hair.


----------



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

I only used the pour on today but I'm not convinced it's parasites as the skin underneath is so smooth and clear and showing no signs at all of irritation.

Nothing could have accidentally been spilled on them. They live at the school where I work and being a primary school, there are no chemicals in the vicinity at all and I am the only adult that has any contact with them. There are 15 chickens sharing the same space, not in their paddock but alongside it. The goats cannot get in with the chickens but the chickens regularly sneak under the fence and get in with the goats so I feel if there was anything in the environment to cause such a drastic reaction, I would be seeing something in the chickens too.

I have spoken to the vet and she recommended I continue on my current coarse. The vets round here are not goat savvy at all so when Teddy went down with UC, we treated him according to all the info I found on TGS!! She has said that if none of the supplements or the pour on help, then we could do tests but as they are so very expensive and involve me trying to get both goats in my car (BMW MINI) and taking them to the surgery for the tests, this avenue was best explored first.


----------



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

So.....I'm hoping to start using these supplements and stuff tomorrow so anyone got any advice as to the what, when and how much?? xx


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Having an odd winter may be contributing to the hair loss.


----------



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

I have wondered if this is the case. Weatherwise, we have had some very cold snaps and some very mild periods, we have had the wettest Winter in recorded history and it's been very windy on and off. 

I wondered if 'stress' was a factor...the boys spent 9 weeks shut in my garage while Teddy was ill, where there was no natural light. It was still quite cold in there but no exposure to wind or draughts, much drier for them too. They were taken for daily walks around my small garden and along the driveway but I didn't have a licence to walk them at the time so not much exercise available really. Teddy had times where he was barely eating because of the UC and the associated pain and he has lost a fair bit of weight......but Tumnus had no health problems and ate like a pig and yet he has almost caught Teddy up in the hair loss stakes!

I realise that I could be making all this fuss and it turns out to just be an extreme moult BUT, on a long term basis, I still need to get their nutritional needs sorted, now that they have no grain and browse is only available when they are out on their walks.....therefore leaving them with nothing but hay and a handful of BOSS......so any help on the nutrient mix/dose would be truly appreciated.

Is there anywhere that I can find info on the actual quantities of particular vits/minerals that are needed on a daily basis so I can work out what to give them?


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

OK I'm not overly good at this but the manna pro is very high in both protein and fat....for a pet wether I see them getting fat fast off that. The copper is not high at all in that. Since you already have it I would only give very very little. The Codlivit is that a tub or a type of feed??? I'm not seeing any copper in that. I can't remember who it was but they don't live in the us and can't get copper boluses so she sprinkles a little copper sulfate on the grain. And yes don't eat it your self  but you can od them on it so very little. The boss (just saw your question about it) I think....and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong is a good source of selenium. I don't know if it will help hair grow back but it does make them shinny and I love.to give it to my 'need extra' girls so might make them fat since it is high in protein and fat. If you choose to give to them I would do very little. Again I'm not overy good at all this breaking down lol but it might give you a start if no one chimes in


----------



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

Thank you so much for your response and sorry, I accidentally copied the nutritional analysis for the Codlivit without copper whereas I have the one with added copper....it's at a rate of 1200 mg/kg. Codlivit is a moist, oil based supplement with the physical consistency of damp sand...it is not a grain.

So with the Codlivit containing 1200 ppm of copper, the Manna Pro containing only 150 ppm and the mineral lick with copper being pretty much ignored....do I still feed the copper sulphate ASWELL and if so, how much....you say very little but how much is that....a pinch....and is that monthly? Or do I just stick to the Manna Pro and Codlivit at their recommended doses?


----------



## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

The dairy mineral mix I use has copper at 4,000 mg/kg. Sometimes they lick it up like it's the yummiest thing on earth, while other times they seem to ignore it for weeks. When I give my goats copper (the heaviest goat is 63 lb/about 30 kg) I give them literally a PINCH of copper sulphate each month. The breeder of two of them says she gives the adults a teaspoon three or four times a year...the stuff tastes yucky (imagine taking a drink of water that's been sitting in copper pipes for months without running) and I figure a steady trickle is better than a big shock, so that's why I do a monthly pinch. I would not exceed a quarter teaspoon...not based on any science, just gut feeling. And I'd wait and watch. Some copper is better than no copper, and my feeling is that a slow recovery will be gentler on their systems. Reminder, I've only had goats for nine months, so consider where this advice is coming from.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Actually what would be better is if you can get your hands on boluses for the copper. To be honest I don't trust that sulfate and I stay away from it. They can od on the sulfate but the rods in the bolus are a slow release. As for how often I can't answer that every goat and every place is different and there is many factors to take in. Good signs of being copper defecent is rough coat.....when they get it back  and fish tail. Fish tail is when they loose the hair In the middle of the tail and it makes their tail look like a fishes tail. But again the rods are a slow release so its much harder to give them too much. I myself give a bolus for a 200lb goat every 3 months no matter what they weigh and it took a year to see a difference....but mine were bad  
But I was also thinking about the hair loss issue.....I don't thing if you put a antifungle on them that it would hurt them in any way if that turns out not to be the problem. Just something to think about


----------



## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

if you live in a copper deficient area, then you can give more than a pinch a month. I live in copper deficient area. my guys get a bolus every 2 months (yep...2 months), the mineral mix available doesn't have any copper in it, and 3 times a week I give a pinch of copper sulfate. by pinch, I really mean a pinch - index and thumb touch kind of pinch. 

I was putting it on their food, but if it didn't stick to anything, they won't eat it. so I thought of making goat cookies and put them in there. they get these cookies 3 times a week.

btw - to everyone who is weirded out by copper sulfate. that's the copper that's in your minerals...... it's only deadly to goats when drenched into the lungs, which is why I give the cookies now.....

the cookies I make are a dehydrated fruit - I had dates, pureed them and added a banana. dropped 1/2 tsp on to cookie sheet with oven set to the lowest temp. then put a pinch of copper sulfate on each cookie. bake in lowest oven setting until dry. store in fridge. you can use any fruit that's easy to get.


----------



## Spanish (Feb 13, 2013)

I do think your problem is with mites, this can be very difficult to get under control, general use ivermictin, you will need to treat every 10 days for 3 treatments or even up to 10 treatments if conditions get worse. normally see improvement by the 3rd treatment. mites do transmitt tapeworm, and no doult came from the chickens, I would give chickens and goats apple cider vinger in water to help with that.
as far as the other question I do not think the problem is minerals or lack of feed, I would not at this piont give all that was listed above, I would give all they could eat good quality hay, and a small amount of alfalfa second cutting hay only, no pellets. alfalfa in large amounts can and will cause bloating, I would keep baking soda and minerals ,salts available, should see hair growing back by a month, if itching starts, will probly need to give a cordistone to help with that. I am attacking a link that gives a good discriptions of the many mites out there, interesting read. I am itching know, lol:dance:
Clinical Signs 
Mite infestations are usually characterized by 
dermatitis and loss or damage to the hair and feathers. 
Some mites rarely or never cause clinical signs, while 
others become symptomatic only if their populations 
become large. However, some species of mites (e.g., 
Sarcoptes scabiei) can cause clinical signs even if only a 
few mites are present. Many of the clinical signs of mite 
infestation are due to an allergic reaction to the parasites.

http://www.oie.int/fileadmin/Home/eng/Health_standards/tahm/2.09.08_MANGE.pdf

hope this helps


----------



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

I cannot get copper bolus in any sort of financially viable quantity as the online suppliers check your herd/CPH number to see if you have cattle and then won't sell items 'off label' for goats and the local country store (which I would still have to lie to but they don't check up!) only sell them in large quantities....the smallest pack costing £80! I will have to rely on copper sulphate. 

Incidentally, there was no sign of fishtail before the hair loss and in fact, they both still have fully furred tails even now, just no fur (or very little) on their main body!

Spanish....thank you for your input too. I have dosed once with the Virbamec now and will repeat evry 10 days for three treatments and see where we are then. I also have had the ACV in the chicken water for years but have now added some to the goat's water too. I read the link you gave for mange but there really are absolutely no symptoms except the hair loss....no itching, no redness, no scabs, no crusting, no behavioural changes, nothing! If there are mites and this is an allergic reaction to them, it is ONLY manifesting itself in hair loss.

As for diet, I cannot get the alfalfa hay. I can buy it in small bags at the pet shop for rabbits/guinea pigs but cannot get it in goat-suitable quantites so have no choice but to use pellets instead.

So many people keep mentioning minerals/loose minerals but I cannot get these here, ONLY the things mentioned above. I really, really appreciate everyone's help, I cannot even begin to say how much but I'm also getting repeated suggestions of using things I simply do not have access to.

So those things mentioned above are instead of your loose minerals. The Manna Pro goat balancer is in pellet form, the Codlivit looks like damp sand, the coconut oil arrived today and is, in fact, solid rather than the liquid I expected.....it has the consistency of refridgerated butter.....maybe I could use this to make a sort of oily muesli of the Manna pellets, BOSS, copper sulphate and Codlivit???


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

If you can get grass hay I would feed that as their main diet and just small amounts of the pellets to balance their calcium. They don't need all the protein from straight alfalfa anyway.

Mites do NOT come from chickens, they are species specific. It is possible that both the goats and the chickens have mites but they would come from difference sources and not transmit between them.



Jessica84 said:


> When we were talking to the man at the feed store he said there was a fungus on the trees and when the horses stand under the trees when it rains it gets onto them. If you could post pictures that might help with figuring it out.


Hogwash. Rain rot/rain scald is a fungal skin condition but it has nothing to do with trees, they can get it in the middle of a grass field if they're wet all the time. Use a rain sheet or make sure they have DRY shelter. Some animals are more susceptible than others; I have a pony who gets it very easily so she has to wear a sheet if it rains at all.


----------



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

I can get unlimited grass hay so no problem there! What do you class as 'small amounts' of alfalfa pellets.....I have had suggestions of anywhere between half a cup and two cups per day per goat? Also, we don't use cups as a measurement here so when I tried to convert cups to grams online, there seems to be different equivalences depending on the substance being measured....a cup of flour weighs 128g but a cup of molasses weighs 340g....that's one hell of a difference! So, anyone any idea how many GRAMS of alfalfa pellets they might need? xx


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

A cup is a measure of volume rather than weight, so it's not terribly accurate in either system. Lemme run some quick numbers and I'll give you an estimate.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Actually, based on the data I have available it looks like most grass hay is within a safe range of Ca/P. Of course it will depend on what kind of grass you get but the concern over calcium is more related to grains which have an inverted ratio. Your BOSS does as well but since it's very calorie dense you don't need to feed much of it. I'd say if you feed 2x as much alfalfa pellets as BOSS you shouldn't have a problem, and you don't need a lot of either one. 

For reference, one pound is 453 grams, and based on what I could find one cup is roughly 150 grams (this can vary greatly.)

There are many opinions as to how much concentrate goats need. For wethers who are just pets I'd say that 100g of BOSS and 200g of alfalfa pellets would probably be fine, but you can always adjust that.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

They are pet wethers I don't see how they would need any other type of hay or feed really other then the grass. IMO I would stick to the grass unless you see that they are loosing LOTS of weight. They don't breed or get pregnant so there is nothing really going on for them to need the extras. 
I knew you couldn't get the loose minerals but didn't know about the bolus so sorry there  
The sulfate they can od on it has nothing to do with going In the lungs it has to do with the fact that what ever amount of copper you are giving them it hits their system then not slowly over months like the rods. So when wild heart comes up with your dose.....if it was me I would give less. But I'm also a chicken and when I do Bose I give only half of the dose of what it says to give......total chicken lol.
Now back to the hair loss again....don't get frustrated at me  are they more chunky then they were last time they shed out??? The heavier the animal the less hair they need because they have fat to keep them warm. Right now it seems we all are trying to figure out your mineral needs. A picture might help with the whole hair loss issue  
But I would say between the lick the one oily stuff (can't remember the name you said it was) and some added sulfate which should mix will into that stuff that should cover their mineral need....but I could be wrong lol


----------



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

Hi guys and thank again for your input, I really don't know what i'd do without all of you!! I'd be as bald as the boys are I think!! :lol:

I did try and get some pics today but, typically, the batteries died on me as soon as I fired the camera up!

Jessica....the boys have actually lost a fair bit of weight so are definitely no longer in the 'chunky' category. They were before Teddy became ill but since the removal of grain, I would say Tumnus is now at a very healthy 'normal' weight and Teddy is, maybe, just a little, underweight as he lost more weight due to the illness itself as there were many times he was right off his food because of the pain he was in. They also look much smaller anyway without their thick coats....I have no scale so am really only going by appearance and the very innacurate method of girth measurement (remembering they are cross breeds and therefore don't conform to the standard in their build. They are twins and yet Tumnus is built like a pygmy and Teddy like a ND and they are apparently a cross between the two but I'm more inclined to believe they are complete mongrels!)

Wild Hearts....thanks for your help with the cup/g thing and suitable amounts for the pellets. Maybe I'll start low and see how things go??

I think I need to leave all you good people in peace now and just get on with it! I suppose if I add a little of everything, bit by bit, I can see whether there are improvements. Maybe stick with no added sulphate at this point and see if the copper in the supplements suffices? I can always see if their fur comes back in and how coarse/dark it is to judge on copper levels. 

I'll still post piccies when i get them, see if anyone has any new ideas but otherwise, I think I need to bite the bullet and get on with doing instead of talking!

Teddy is now warmly ensconced in his new goat coat and there's one on the way for Tumnus so at least they'll be toasty warm while i figure out what's going on, eh? Lol! 

Thank you, thank you, thank you, each and every one of you lovely people :stars:


----------



## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

Hi again! Wow, I can't imagine measuring everything by weight in the kitchen, we'd all have to have kitchen scales! Good ol' low-tech measuring cups for me. Here in Canada, we are theoretically trilingual in measurements, understanding metric, US, and Imperial measures. A quick reckoner is that a cup is just shy of 250ml of water, and of course 250ml water weighs 250g. So, no matter how much the stuff happens to weigh, measure them out in a container that holds close to 250g water. (Something to remember is that if a US person speaks of a gallon, they mean 16 cups, not 20 cups as in an imperial gallon.)


----------



## Spanish (Feb 13, 2013)

The chicken mite, Dermanyssus gallinae, causes dermatitis in avian hosts and domestic mammals (horses, dogs, cats, cattle, rodents, rabbits and others). Severe infestations can occur.


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I had forgotten that you don't use cups as measure. I actually bought my friend Kim a set of US measuring cups cause she didn't have any! The "cup" is based off a tea-cup (and I KNOW you have those over there :grin: ) If you don't feel like measuring everything, just base it off that for a measure.


----------



## happyhogs (Oct 12, 2009)

Hi everyone....had such a busy few days, I haven't been back to answer you.

A good part of my weekend has been spent tending to those troublesome goats of mine. I still didn't get any darn photos as the camera seems to have completely given up the ghost, whereas I thought it was just a battery problem but it would seem not!

They have now lost just about all their hair, leaving just their fluffy sparse newly grown-in spring covering and their furry trousers. They both now have a very nice, cosy, waterproof goat coat to keep them warm though as the temperature has dropped to freezing point and is predicted to drop further and give us snow by week's end.

I thankfully have seen no other signs of ill health, they are eating well and gobbling down all the new minerals and supplements without complaint.

Annoyingly, the alfalfa pellets have not been delivered as promised and I am in the middle of a complaint and re-order but the store gave me some 'chaff' to tide me over as horse owners apparently swear by it. I'm not sure it does the same job at all and the boys really aren't keen. It is heavily mollassed and very strong smelling. It has no breakdown of its calcium/phosphorus ratio either and says it's ingredients include 'hay' and 'straw' but doesn't say from what source.

Anyway, the boys seem happy and I can only continue as I am at the moment and see what effect it has on their health and coat condition. I shall re-treat with the Virbamec after ten days and again after a further ten days but otherwise will just see how things go with all the new additives!

Thank you again for eveything.....and don't worry about the 'cups' thing, I am using an old teacup as mentioned above and it's doing fine for now xxx


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Chaff is what's left over after they take out all the good stuff. Basically just fiber.


----------



## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

you're doing a great job! some goat owners swear by chaffhaye. http://www.chaffhaye.com/ not sure if that's the same brand you have, but that's what I found when I googled it.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

If that's just chopped hay it's not the same as what's generally called "chaff". Not sure why they would choose that name.


----------

