# Limpy/staggering buck, is this a sign of illness or disease??



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

I came home from work last evening and noticed one of my 2 Nigerian Dwarf bucks had a very serious limp and stagger as he walked, and he would almost tip over as he tried to walk. Is this a sign of any disease or illness? Until then, he was very active, in excellent physical shape, with no sign of illness or lack of physical mobility.

My first thought was that he had some broken bones in his leg or legs, but after a closer inspection, it seems like he was possibly rammed hard by the other buck in the same pasture with him. They fight occasionally, mostly just head butting but sometimes they try to ram each other from the side. Another possible thing is that as they bucks were fighting or head butting, he backed into the fence and got one or more of his legs caught in between the strands of 12.5 gauge hi tensile electrified fence wires, and as he struggled to get free, he pulled some leg muscles really badly? 

My main question is, could this be a sign of any disease or illness, or is it likely just a physical injury? Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. This is a prime breeding buck so of course he means a lot to me and I want him in top health and it would be terrible to lose him as I haven't had a chance to use him to breed many of my does yet. 

thank you!


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Staggering & unsteadiness is often the first sign of Polio or Listeriosis. Please read this thoroughly and begin injections of Thiamine (Rx) or Fortified B-Complex (OTC) as well as Penicillin (OTC) as soon as possible: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html

You will also need Dexamethasone or Banamine from a veterinarian for the brain swelling.

The symptoms you describe really sound like Polio or Listeriosis, however even if it is an injury, the treatment will not make him worse.

OTC = over the counter (available at feed/livestock stores)


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes I agree, start Polio/Listeria treatment right away.

Also something else to consider, liver flukes, do you have a pond?


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

thank you so much, this site and the people on here are so helpful! I had the vet come out today while I was at work and he treated the buck for both polio and listeria. and he left me with some thiamine and other things to administer over the next week.

I'd appreciate your prayers for this buck to be restored to good health as he has some prime dairy genetics in him and I've not had much of a chance to let him do much breeding with my does yet since I got him a little over a year ago. losing him would be a big blow to me and my goat herd

thanks


----------



## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Praying for a full recovery and comfort and hope for you!


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

goatblessings said:


> Praying for a full recovery and comfort and hope for you!


thank you!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Prayers definitely sent.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> Prayers definitely sent.


thank you! and in reply to your question about liver flukes/if we have a pond, no the goats do not have access to a pond.

thanks!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How is the buck doing today?


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> How is the buck doing today?


Elijah (the buck) is not doing too well, and me being rather inexperienced at raising goats (which was new to me about 2 years ago) and never really having to deal with a sick goat, I'm partly to blame. Yesterday he was doing better, up moving around, but still really limpy and off balance. Of course I wanted to do all I could to help him, so yesterday I got the idea that I needed to get some nutrients and fluids into him since he didn't seem to be eating or drinking much. So I thought I'll just give him some kid milk replacer :doh:. So, 3 times yesterday I did that, and this morning when I gave him all the things the vet left me to administer to him, I gave him another drench of the milk replacer. It was after that when I suddenly realized how dumb an idea that was. First, Elijah is not a kid (about 1.5 years old now) and obviously hasn't been consuming milk for a long time, and I've known since I got into raising goats that when changing feeds, it needs to be done slow and gradual to avoid causing problems with the goat's rumen, etc. Anyway, this morning there was diarrhea all over which I'm sure was from the milk replacer, and that likely made things worse for Elijah since one of the main causes of Goat Polio is from sudden changes in the diet causing major changes in the goat's rumen bacteria, which ruins their body's ability to make or absorb vitamin B1 as I understand it. (The likely cause of Elijah getting Polio in the first place is that my goats have been eating lush vegetation all summer and fall, and just last week we got snow so I put out hay for the first time, and from what I've read it sounds like that sudden change to hay is a likely cause of polio.)

Anyway, first thing this morning I gave Elijah a drench of the milk replacer, and then I gave him the thiamine intramuscular, the anti inflammatory intramuscular, and a dewormer orally that the vet left me to give him, it wasn't long after all that and he was laying down bawling constantly and I was very concerned that he was dying and about to breathe his last. Thankfully, he came out of that and later he was up and eating hay, and the alfalfa meal/mineral mix I gave them free choice. As of 2 hours ago, he was still alive but looking very weak and mostly just lying inside the shelter.

Any thoughts, or advice would be greatly appreciated, and continued prayers would be greatly appreciated too! I'll keep you updated here with any noticeable changes in his health.

thanks!


----------



## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

I am so sorry you are going through this - you need to remove the grain and only give him hay, and fresh water. Do you have pro-bios to help get his rumen back in shape? Can you list all the vet gave you to administer, what you have and what you have left?


----------



## bandana (Nov 20, 2016)

Did he get into something that messed up his digestive system? If his system is messed up (throwing up / diarrhea) he may have eaten something bad and the staggering you are seeing is from B vitamin deficiency that they very quickly develop when they get sick. Have you given him an injection of B complex? That would be my first route - along with an antitoxin (charcoal).


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

Redbarngoatfarm said:


> I am so sorry you are going through this - you need to remove the grain and only give him hay, and fresh water. Do you have pro-bios to help get his rumen back in shape? Can you list all the vet gave you to administer, what you have and what you have left?


I will get some probios tomorrow, thanks for the suggestion. The vet left me thiamine which I inject intramuscular 4x per day. Also, Panacur, once a day orally for 3 days. And resflor gold (antibiotic and anti inflammatory)

Sorry if I was not clear, I have not fed my bucks any grain. I have always offered them alfalfa meal (100% pure alfalfa powder) mixed with their vitamin/mineral supplements which includes sea salt, thorvin kelp, Kop-Sel, and Better Daze (the latter 2 are from Fir Meadows LLC). Other than that, they were on lush pasture until last week when we got our first snow, and I put out hay for them. In the future, I will begin putting hay out much sooner, in November, to give them time to adjust.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

bandana said:


> Did he get into something that messed up his digestive system? If his system is messed up (throwing up / diarrhea) he may have eaten something bad and the staggering you are seeing is from B vitamin deficiency that they very quickly develop when they get sick. Have you given him an injection of B complex? That would be my first route - along with an antitoxin (charcoal).


Thanks for the post, I'm not sure if you ready through the thread, but I think I covered most or all of that in the previous posts.


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Goats with Polio or Listeriosis often get worse before better during treatment. Keep up the hard work! I know getting all those injections completed is not easy every single day. It is important to continue the Thiamine for at least 48 hours after symptoms disappear and then decrease SLOWLY, really slowly. Relapse is very common with these illnesses. 

I am surprised your vet chose NuFlor over Penicillin and am interested to hear how that works for him. 

Is there any chance there was some mold in the hay you began feeding? Typically a switch from pasture to hay (both roughages) would not trigger polio, which is why I'm wondering if it is actually Listeriosis from possible mold? (And this doesn't make you a bad goatherd at all - mold can be difficult to detect or can hide in crevices in feeders, etc!)


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

While the milk replacer wasn't the best choice, don't beat yourself up. You are completely correct that your buck needs fluids and nutrition to sustain himself during this treatment. Is he in a stall alone where you can definitely how much he is eating & drinking? 

I am going to post a link to another thread about a gal on here who treated a Nubian buck for polio-listeriosis. If you read through it, you should get ideas for how to drench and keep him hydrated and with some nutrition.


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Here is the thread, it is very long, but may give you additional insight: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/grinding-teeth-188685/


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.

Keep it up, it can take a while to get them to snap back.
Dex or banamine is a good idea. I am concerned though, if it is listeria the other antibiotic you were given isn't the best choice, penicillin is best for the situation in high doses.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

Thanks for all the advice and info. He is slowly improving. 

Yes, it's possible he got into mold somehow. Is there any good way to distinguish between polio and listeria? 

I could be wrong, but it seems like the vet mentioned that he thought it was not likely to be listeria since he wasn't turning in circles or he didn't just turn one direction all the time, which would indicate listeria??

the vet suggested the thiamine injections for 3 days, 4x per day. is this long enough, or should I continue to give the thiamine injections for several more days or a week or more? and slowly back off to 3 or 2 times per day?

thanks


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

just another thought that I had, I remember noticing that Elijah was having muscle tremors, like he was jittery or shivering sometime awhile before he really got noticeably ill (which was 4 days ago now). He was always very active and he and Moses (my other buck) would fight a lot as they were in a pasture adjacent to my does, separated from the does by electric fence. It was 4 days ago when Elijah suddenly developed an obvious limp and would almost fall over as he walked. But the jittery/shivering motion I noticed in him probably at least a couple of weeks ago, perhaps more than that, I don't remember for sure. It wasn't constant, just occasional so at the time I just thought he was all worked up because one of my young does was in heat. From what I've read, muscle tremors is a sign of polio, correct? Are muscle tremors more likely to indicate polio than listeria? 

thanks


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to differentiate between polio or listeriosis and you probably will never know which he has and what caused it. Muscle tremors and circling can happen with both. I believe they usually circle to the left. 

The Thiamine needs to be continued 4x per day for at least 48 hours after ALL symptoms have disappeared, and then begin the weaning process. You could also use Fortified B-Complex from the feed store.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

SalteyLove said:


> Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to differentiate between polio or listeriosis and you probably will never know which he has and what caused it. Muscle tremors and circling can happen with both. I believe they usually circle to the left.
> 
> The Thiamine needs to be continued 4x per day for at least 48 hours after ALL symptoms have disappeared, and then begin the weaning process. You could also use Fortified B-Complex from the feed store.


thanks! is it ok to mix the fortified B-complex with alfalfa powder and offer it to him that way, and is it ok for a normally healthy animal to consume it, or is there any risk of overdose on it?


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No. You really need to inject the B Complex.


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Sorry, I should have been more specific. It really needs to be injectable B-Complex, the fortified version which contains more Thiamine. It is not very effective orally, subcutaneous injection is the best way. There is very little risk of overdose, the extra B-vitamins are passed through urine.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> No. You really need to inject the B Complex.





SalteyLove said:


> Sorry, I should have been more specific. It really needs to be injectable B-Complex, the fortified version which contains more Thiamine. It is not very effective orally, subcutaneous injection is the best way. There is very little risk of overdose, the extra B-vitamins are passed through urine.


OK, thanks, I'll continued the thiamine injections intramuscular with the liquid that the vet left me. Elijah is doing better this morning, showing more strength and standing up more and a little more mobile

thanks again!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, injection is best with polio/ listeria.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

So can I do the liquid thiamine injections subcutaneously rather than intramuscular like the vet told me to? and is subcutaneous better than intramuscular?

thanks


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Everything except hormones can be given SQ. Unless there is some special reason, I would do SQ.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> Everything except hormones can be given SQ. Unless there is some special reason, I would do SQ.


ok, will do, thanks!


----------



## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

how is he doing?


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

Redbarngoatfarm said:


> how is he doing?


Just gave him his last shot of thiamine for today. He is slowly improving but still has a noticeable stagger as he walks. Is this normal for a goat to improve this slowly? Someone mentioned they were concerned that the vet gave me Panacur and Resflor Gold for antibiotics rather than Penicillin in case he has listeria. Should I request the Penicillin in case he has listeria? Would you expect him to be showing more improvement by now, a week after he initially started to limp and stumble, or is he progressing normally?

thanks so much for the prayers, support, concern, advice, and suggestions!


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It is normal. Keep up the aggressive treatment until a couple days past when he is better.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> It is normal. Keep up the aggressive treatment until a couple days past when he is better.


thanks!


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes keep up the hard work, it is a very long road but as long as he is showing improvement I would keep up with the meds you have.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, keep it up.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How is it going?


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Hows your buck doing?


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

thanks again everyone for the prayers, concern, and advice -- this buck means so much to me and my herd, and as I said, I haven't had much of a chance to get his genetics bred into my herd yet! Elijah is slowly improving. He still has a little limp and stagger as he walks, but he is eating and drinking well. A week ago I was very concerned that he was dying with very shallow breathing and it was all he could do to squeeze out agonizing nonstop bellering for awhile. It's been about 10 days since he first showed obvious signs of polio or listeria with the severe limp and stagger on December 9. It was on December 11 I thought he was dying. Is it normal for him to still have a little limp and stagger as he walks? Is he progressing OK? I'm still doing thiamine injections twice a day, is that OK, or should I still be doing the thiamine 3 or 4 times a day? Also giving him the resflor gold once every other day http://www.resflorgold.com/. Is the resflor gold necessary?

I wanted to get probiotics earlier, but the local store didn't have what I wanted, so I had to order some online from Jeffers and it will be here today, so I will get started with that right away. I was going to get "Probios" https://www.jefferspet.com/products/probios-dispersible-powder but after looking at ingredients, I liked the "Prefer Probiotic Power" better: https://www.jefferspet.com/products/goats-prefer-probiotic-power-1lb similar bacteria to the probios, but seems like maybe a bit better quality. anyone have experience with either one?

I'm looking forward to using the probiotics with him and all my goats, I'm excited because I know how huge an impact probiotics have made on my personal health and because of all I've read about how these can improve an animal's health, especially after something like what happened with my buck's health which likely was caused from a sudden change in the rumen or whatever. will be interesting to see if I see an increase in milk production from my does.

thanks again!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Cattle probiotics can be used if no goat type is present. I like the paste the best. 

Yes keep up the thiamine shots every 6 hours he is still staggering, so signs are still there.

It is suppose to be pen G for the treatment of Listeria, not what you are giving.

Has he had dex or banamine for brain swelling? Both RX. 
Dex is the best for his issue and must be under a vets supervision.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> Cattle probiotics can be used if no goat type is present. I like the paste the best.
> 
> Yes keep up the thiamine shots every 6 hours he is still staggering, so signs are still there.
> 
> ...


 yes the vet gave him dex one time, but that was 10 days ago.

you think he might have Listeria and not polio? and should I contact the vet to get him some penicillin for that then? the resflor gold is an anti-inflammatory, but probably not near as good as the dex, huh?

thanks


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is an antibiotic with Banamine in it. If he is improving, I would just continue with your treatment. It can take a very long time for recovery.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> That is an antibiotic with Banamine in it. If he is improving, I would just continue with your treatment. It can take a very long time for recovery.


thanks for the assurance Karen! yes the vet also said it could take months for a full recovery


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

having such a serious health issue like Elijah is going through, will this affect his offspring's health in any way? In other words, if Elijah regains his health to near what it was before he came down with this illness, and I have him breed my does, will this illness result in lowering the quality of his offspring in any way? I'm sure that the greatest impact of a sire to his offspring has to do with his genetics, so is it safe to say that this illness won't have much of an effect on his offspring's health or the dairy qualities of his future daughters?

thanks


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It shouldn't.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> It shouldn't.


thank you!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You bet.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

Elijah continues to improve!! The last day or two the limp and stagger has become pretty much unnoticeable. I started the probiotics on Monday evening and now its Friday morning, not sure if the probiotics are causing the big improvement in his strength and coordination the last couple of days or if he would have snapped out of it at the same time without those, but I'm thinking perhaps the probiotics had a big impact on improving his overall digestion and health as a result. I've continued the thiamine 3 times a day, and the last few days reduced it to 2 times per day, as well as the resflor gold 1 time every other day.

Thanks again to everyone who said a prayer or two, and for all who shared advice on how to care for him! I'm so thankful that God has sustained his life and brought him healing thus far, and that he continues to improve! I'm really looking forward to spreading his excellent dairy genetics through my herd! As I said, it would have been a big loss had he not survived. 

thanks!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good to hear, keep up the good work and when he is 100%, continue treatment for another 24 to 48 hours, then thereafter wean him off of it. You do not want a relapse.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

I need your advice again. Elijah has been doing well and I was down to the thiamine once a day for awhile, then I quit giving it to him 2 days ago. This morning I notice he is having muscle tremors again. When standing still, my other buck Moses is motionless, but when Elijah stands still, his muscles are tremoring like he's shivering and I know it's not because he's cold. He was doing that back in November when it was warm, a few weeks before he got bad, long before the signs were obvious with the limpy staggering walk and not wanting to eat or drink much. So I gave him a thiamine shot SQ this morning.

should I give the thiamine 2, 3, or 4 times a day now? and should I start giving him the resflor gold again? As Karen said above, the resflor gold "is an antibiotic with Banamine in it"

thanks


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I would give him thiamine twice a day and see if the tremors stop and he improves or degrades. Start the whole treatment over again with both medications if he goes downhill. You'll have to wean him MUCH more slowly off the thiamine (you can switch to Fortified B-Complex if needed)... like over a period of 1-2 weeks. Relapse is very common so keep your chin up!


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

SalteyLove said:


> I would give him thiamine twice a day and see if the tremors stop and he improves or degrades. Start the whole treatment over again with both medications if he goes downhill. You'll have to wean him MUCH more slowly off the thiamine (you can switch to Fortified B-Complex if needed)... like over a period of 1-2 weeks. Relapse is very common so keep your chin up!


thanks so much, that's what I thought, I weaned him off too quickly too soon. by relapse being common, would you describe what Elijah's symptoms as a relapse? And is it likely that he will bounce back and continue to improve as long as I keep up the thiamine long enough?

I'm so thankful for this forum and all you who know so much about goats and share your wisdom and advice!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes, keep up the good work and thiamine shots.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> Yes, keep up the good work and thiamine shots.


thank you. just gave him his second thiamine shot for the day. Still has some slight muscle tremors. I was wondering, could this condition possibly be aggravated by the bucks breeding behavior when a doe is in heat they really fight quite a bit and they are butting their heads together. Could that possibly be causing swelling on his brain at all, or exacerbating the condition?


----------



## PlanBFarm (Dec 31, 2016)

Sorry for your trouble. Hope he turns around. <3


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

So I gave him 2 shots of thiamine yesterday, and he still had the muscle tremors this morning when I gave him his 1st shot today. this evening when I went to give him his 2nd shot of thiamine for today (the 4th shot since I noticed the muscle tremors returned after I had quit all treatment 3 or 4 days ago), he was not having muscle tremors anymore! thankfully the thiamine seems to be working and this confirms what others have said, that I need to continue the thiamine and wean him off it slowly like over a couple of weeks. 

thanks again!


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> could this condition possibly be aggravated by the bucks breeding behavior when a doe is in heat they really fight quite a bit and they are butting their heads together. Could that possibly be causing swelling on his brain at all, or exacerbating the condition?


yes, its called Big Head and although this Quote is about Rams..it can happen just as well in goats...

"Big head is an acute, infectious disease, caused by Clostridium novyi, C sordellii, or rarely C chauvoei, characterized by a nongaseous, nonhemorrhagic, edematous swelling of the head, face, and neck of young rams. This infection is initiated in young rams by fighting or continual butting of one another. It has also been associated with the practice of dipping immediately after shearing. The bruised and battered subcutaneous tissues provide conditions suitable for growth of pathogenic clostridia, and the breaks in the skin offer an opportunity for their entrance. Treatment is with broad-spectrum antibiotics or penicillin."

I would separate your buck until he makes full recovery.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

happybleats said:


> yes, its called Big Head and although this Quote is about Rams..it can happen just as well in goats...
> 
> "Big head is an acute, infectious disease, caused by Clostridium novyi, C sordellii, or rarely C chauvoei, characterized by a nongaseous, nonhemorrhagic, edematous swelling of the head, face, and neck of young rams. This infection is initiated in young rams by fighting or continual butting of one another. It has also been associated with the practice of dipping immediately after shearing. The bruised and battered subcutaneous tissues provide conditions suitable for growth of pathogenic clostridia, and the breaks in the skin offer an opportunity for their entrance. Treatment is with broad-spectrum antibiotics or penicillin."
> 
> I would separate your buck until he makes full recovery.


Thanks so much. I really think this is what caused it in the first place, and caused the relapse a few days ago. My 2 bucks fight and butt heads a lot when one of my does comes into heat, and in the October and November, it was almost constant fighting and head butting when they were in full rut. It was toward the end of that, when we got the first cold and snow and the switch from green pasture to hay that really triggered the obvious symptoms, but I remember noticing the muscle tremors long before that, probably back in October sometime, when his health was already being affected by the intense rutting and head butting. I think it just took more extreme weather/feeding conditions before he practically collapsed in early December.

And early this past week when I stopped giving the thiamine, two of my young does also came into heat and my bucks were head butting again for a couple of days, prior to which they had been pretty much laying low for a few weeks as the peak rut is over and winter has set in. Those few weeks of non-rutting, non-head butting is when Elijah recovered and his symptoms disappeared. Now, during winter after peak rut, they only fight and butt heads intensely if they are in the pen next to the does and one of them is in heat.

I'd appreciate if any of you could share your opinion on this, but I think another thing that might have made Elijah more prone to this condition is that he was growing spurs from where his horn bases would attach. At times the spurs would get an inch or so long, and then when the bucks started rutting and head butting, he would break them off. My thought is that with these abnormal spurs and the head butting, it made him even more prone to being negatively affected because it was like putting intense pressure on his skull where the spurs attached.

I know there are some really good reasons why most breeders like to dehorn their goats, but this is now at the top of my list of reasons for why I do not like to dehorn my goats and I am raising all my goats with their horns on. My 2 bucks were bought from a breeder that dehorns goats, and I bought them as young kids, so that is why they were dehorned, but like I said, Elijah had grown spurs after the fact. God made goats to have horns, and when we try to change that and remove them, I think it causes more harm than good to the goats. I know there are many who disagree, and I respect your opinion, I just wanted to share my thoughts on this, and how I think I've come to knowing what I think is causing Elijah's health problems.

I will definitely separate the bucks for now, or at least move the does so they are not right next to the bucks when they come into heat, so they bucks don't fight. Thanks!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yeah, bucks can ram each other pretty hard.

If that buck is still having issues, I would still use thiamine shots. And of course separating him from the meanies.
Being too close to the girls doesn't help matters but they will still be bucks and be in rut amoung each other.

If he does OK on like 2 x a week thiamane shots then do that. If it still doesn't help stop them, try 3 x a week. Or what ever he does well on, until you can totally wean him off of it.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

Thanks Toth boer goats. 2 more thiamine SQ shots today, and the muscle tremors have stopped. He still is "lopsided" as he stands and walks, like his coordination is not all it should be. I'll continue the thiamine 2 times a day for another week at least, then see if he does ok with one a day. The bucks aren't head butting and fighting now cause there aren't any does in heat, but I think I will separate the bucks tomorrow. I wanted to do it yesterday or today, but I didn't get around to doing that yet. At least they haven't been fighting or doing any intense head butting the last couple days since the 2 does that were in heat several days ago have passed their cycle. I think I jumped the gun on the previous post, thinking it was the head butting causing "big head" disease. after doing some more research on polio, listeria, and big head, the symptoms seem to clearly point to polio, and not really to big head. I'm sure the intense rutting and head butting didn't help his overall strength and health, so that was probably part of the reason he came down with polio, but I don't think it was the main cause like I had jumped to that conclusion in my previous post.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Your welcome.

If he is still off with walking, it sounds like he still has polio. maybe increase to 3 x a day.
Has he had banamine or Dex? It helps brain swelling caused by polio.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> Your welcome.
> 
> If he is still off with walking, it sounds like he still has polio. maybe increase to 3 x a day.
> Has he had banamine or Dex? It helps brain swelling caused by polio.


Thanks. yes, the vet gave him Dex the first time he came out, the day after Eiljah came down with the serious symptoms. That was exactly 4 weeks ago. The vet left the Resflor Gold with me to give every other day. That is a antibiotic and anti inflammatory with Banamine in it, which I gave for at least 2 weeks, every other day. And also the Thiamine 3 or 4 times per day for the first 2 weeks. I think it was during the 3rd week I reduced to giving the thiamine 2 times per day, then 1 a day, then after about 3 weeks I quit altogether for a couple of days, after which he started to have muscle tremors again, and a slight lop sided walk or leaning posture.

So, about a week ago at the start of the 4th week, I started the Thiamin SQ 2 times per day again and this seems to have him back in good shape, no muscle tremors and not much noticeable limp or lean in his posture any more. I'm thankful he did not get any worse again.

Also, earlier this week I moved the does away so they can't get within a few feet separated only by fence like they were before. Now the closest the does and bucks can get is like 100 feet apart or so. So Elijah and Moses aren't in such a rutting frenzy or fighting like they were when Elijah's muscle tremors returned a week or so ago. They are much calmer and more restful, which I think helps a lot, and they aren't butting heads anymore like they were before.

I'll continue the thiamine 2 times per day. Not sure how long I need to keep this up??

thanks!


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

If it has been a whole week of 2x a day Thiamine, I would drop to once per day injections and keep a close eye on him for the next week.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, try the 1 x a day, if he doesn't continue to improve and goes backwards a bit, then go back to 2 x a day.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

thanks to each of you for your advice. He's looking pretty good now. I can't hardly notice any limp, stagger, or leaning in his posture like a week ago after I had stopped the thiamine. I might continue the thiamine 2x a day through this weekend (2 more days after today), then drop to 1x per day starting Monday.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sounds like a good plan.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Things still going good?


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> Things still going good?


yes, thanks for asking. I dropped from giving the thiamine SQ 2x per day down to 1x per day on Monday (2 days ago). This is the best Elijah has looked in a long time! And with the distance between the bucks and does now (as I said I moved them about a week and a half ago) the bucks are not rutting and fighting and butting heads like they were when the does were right next to them.

Thanks for all the advice all along!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sounds really good, excellent work and glad all is well. Continue weaning him slowly off of the thiamine and he should be just fine. Thanks for the update.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Things still good?


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

funny you should ask today, I've got some things to share! Elijah has been doing very good! I'm still giving him the thiamine 1x per day SQ. 

As it got light out this morning, I saw one of my 3 doe kids, Faith, who was born May 12, 2016, had snuck through the doe pasture electric fence and was standing at the edge of the buck pasture fence, obviously in heat, tail wagging and very vocal. For the first time in several weeks, the bucks were now all worked up into a rutting frenzy. I saw them butt heads very hard a few times for the first time since before I moved the does away from the bucks several weeks ago. Several minutes later, I noticed Elijah had some muscle tremors, for the first time in several weeks back when I had stopped giving the thiamine for a few days several weeks ago. So I concluded that the head butting and/or rutting behavior definitely had a big effect on what brought his illness on in the first place last fall. I noticed muscle tremors in Elijah way back in October when he and Moses starting rutting intensively and doing a lot of head butting. He finally "crashed" in early December when the cold snowy weather arrived and their diet changed from fresh green pasture to hay. It was then that I started this thread and new something was seriously wrong. Had I known in October how serious muscle tremors were and that they were a strong sign of polio or listeria, I would have taken action immediately then. 

Anyway, I put Faith back in the doe pasture, not wanting to breed her until a couple months from now, in March. Just in case, I buck Moses in the permanent electric fence pasture, with the 12.5 gauge hi tensile electrified wire at it's perimeter, which I knew no goat would go through. Moses is Faith's father, so I definitely did not want him to breed Faith, if she happened to get out again. Awhile later, Faith got through the stretchy poly electric fence again, and then Eiljah got through the poly electric fence that was at the exterior of his pasture. And so Faith was bred by Elijah. Moses is safely inside the 12.5 gauge hi tensile electric fence pasture. 

Is there any serious problems with having a Nigerian doe bred as young as 8 months and 1 week old? She is a robust kid and she grew fast as I let her nurse from her mother for at least 6 months from May til November. 

thanks! here are some photos

Moses is the brown buck, Elijah, the one that was sick with polio, is the white and black buck. You can see the bald spots behind the bucks horn bases, where they were taking the brunt of blow from the head butts. When the rutting activity is intense, like when the does were next to the bucks, and when a doe is in heat, the bald spots were all bloody. Now they are healed over. The one photo shows my 6 does. the 3 on the right are "Bandi" and her 2 doe kids "Mary" and "Martha" born last March. The next 2 in the middle are "Promise" and her doe kid "Faith" who is 8 months and 1 week old and was bred by Elijah today. The last one is "Spirit" who I don't have any doe kids from yet.


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

How much does Faith weigh?


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

SalteyLove said:


> How much does Faith weigh?


Not sure, I will have to weigh her. What is an acceptable weight for breeding Nigerians? I know she's not as much as I wanted her to weigh before being bred. Wanted to wait until at least 10 months old, which would be another 7 weeks from now. I've heard about using Lute (?) what are the health effects of that? I don't like to use drugs if I don't have to, but if it's not healthy for Faith to be pregnant as such a young age, I would do what I need to.

thanks


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I think you better start a new thread with these questions. I don't have much dwarf experience or much experience using Lutalyse!


----------



## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

If she's 50# or more she'll be fine. Just watch her grain intake at the end of her pregnancy


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

SalteyLove said:


> I think you better start a new thread with these questions. I don't have much dwarf experience or much experience using Lutalyse!





sassykat6181 said:


> If she's 50# or more she'll be fine. Just watch her grain intake at the end of her pregnancy


I weighed Faith today, she is only 38 pounds, and like I said, 8 months 1 week old. Is this OK? I started a new thread: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f217/minimum-age-weight-breeding-nigerian-dwarf-doe-190451/

thank you


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

So I've been giving Elijah the thiamine SQ 1x per day since 1/9/2017. He is doing really well!! I can even tell he has gained quite a bit of weight in the past month. I'm going to drop the thiamine to once every other day for a week, see how he does, then drop to once every 3 days, and keep a close eye on him. 

thanks again!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sounds very good. Good work.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> Sounds very good. Good work.


thanks! and thanks for all your advice and support, as well as from many others!


----------



## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Those are some very handsome goats!!! Maybe Elijah just needs his own pen with a wether buddy?


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

catharina said:


> Those are some very handsome goats!!! Maybe Elijah just needs his own pen with a wether buddy?


thank you! and thanks to the breeder who I bought them from as bucklings. She was an excellent breeder, unfortunately she is no longer raising and breeding goats but still has a website http://olsonacres.com/

Here are Elijah and Moses again. Elijah is doing really well and continues to gain weight and strength. Also, my 5 does, and one of my does, Promise just had 3 beautiful kids 5 days ago. 2 of them are doe kids, so I'm very thankful and blessed!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Nice goaties. 

You are very welcome, glad we helped.


----------



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

Elijah is doing really well! Seems to have made a full recovery. I weaned him down to thiamine SQ once every 3 days, and them quit completely. It's been at least a week since the last shot, and he's doing really well. So are the does and the kids!

thanks everyone for your prayers, support, and advice in how to care for Elijah!


----------

