# My very first Parrot Mouth...



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

My Daisy, Boer/Nubian Cross, delivered a pair of male/female twins just over an hour ago. As yet, I'm uncertain who the sire is. I'll know more as they pull themselves together, but it won't be someone who has Boer or Nubian in him.

The boy has a parrot mouth, but can drink. I see no sign of it in the girl. The boy has other issues as well, so if he survives to a "meatable" size, that will be his fate. The girl is extremely vigorous.

Ideas about causation? Ideas about what to do about the girl? It is likely that Daisy was wormed before I knew she was pregnant, but that is not certain. She also went through a course of Resflor Gold 2 months ago.

All my bucks are gone now that could possibly have bred her, so a repeat breeding is impossible.

Any input would be appreciated.

No pictures are possible at the moment.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would say don't repeat the breeding. That is usually the cause. You just happened to make the "right" match.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

That match CANNOT be repeated, as the 2 bucks who could have bred her are gone. What about the girl? Problems ahead?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I've given all 3 an appropriate dose of Replamin, because of signs of Selenium deficiency, especially in the boy. (He has other issues than the Parrot Mouth) Would extra Vitamin D help his skeletal development in your opinion? My only concern now is getting him to a useable size, not to any kind of breeding, etc.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It shouldn't be a problem with the girl. It wouldn't hurt to do an ADE vitamin shot. He may have other internal problems or may not. Luckily parrot mouth isn't seen much in goats.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All good advice.

Sorry the goat has parrot mouth.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

:hug:


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Oh, Thank you. It isn't heartbreaking about him, as meat was going to almost definitely going to be his end anyway. I was more interested in what people think about the doeling, and general causes, and procedures that can help.

Update. He has rebounded strongly! He is eating like crazy, and the parrot mouth does not even seem as bad as it did at first. Is that even possible?

I've read many threads about this, but not experienced it myself. So I'm very curious about different thoughts.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Me 2 was thinking of the doeling, unable to help you in any way! :hug::hug:


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

you sead mom was wormed before you knew she was prego? with what? I know Ivermec is safe, but others are not, maybe something to do with that?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did you have to intervene for the birth?


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

Several year ago i had a ram that threw all sorts of deformities. the problem was i was flock breeding and didn't have any way to know which of the four rams was the cause. after three years i sold two of my older Rams. one was the problem. I never have had a deformed lamb since.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

spidy1 said:


> you sead mom was wormed before you knew she was prego? with what?


I may or may not have wormed her. I can't even guess. The last stuff I used was Equimax Horse Paste.


ksalvagno said:


> Did you have to intervene for the birth?


Not in the slightest. Both of them just plopped out as per usual for Daisy. She's a fantastic mother and producer.

Slight symptoms of Selenium deficiency, more in the boy than the girl. Both of them are peeing, pooping out the meconium and started on the yellow, and eat a lot.

As I said, any boys were always going to be meat anyway. I'm not upset and only want to learn more about this happening, especially about the girl's prospects.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I forgot to mention, I'm extremely confident Daisy had excellent minerals through the pregnancy, but the hay hasn't been fantastic, especially lately.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

You know how some kids are all wobbly legged at birth? The same hormones that make the hips and pelvis loose for the impending labor and birth can also effect the unborn kids. Any joint can be affected. For some reason, the jaw gets too floppy and can look like a parrot mouth. (As opposed to true parrot mouth that doesn't go away). Your boy may just have had too many mom hormomes!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Then, I will keep everyone apprised if this goes away.


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## Lindan (Aug 19, 2018)

I have a buckling with the opposite issue, I think it's called bulldog mouth?
He got it from his mom, I thought hers was just because she's had a few tooth difficulties. 
Nope it's genetic... He has no issues, but is not going on to breed.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Lindan said:


> He has no issues, but is not going on to breed.


Will you keep using the dam? Or do you regard her as OK as long as you use a different sire?


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## Lindan (Aug 19, 2018)

mariarose said:


> Will you keep using the dam? Or do you regard her as OK as long as you use a different sire?


I'll try her with a different sire, as her last kid (was with her when we bought her, and later sold as a buck for another herd) didn't have it... If her next on does, she will be retired to the freezer, she isn't a friendly lady, but has a beautiful confirmation for her breed, except her bulldog bite, that I now know she has.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, we breed up from what we have. There is no perfect goat, and if there were, it'd be out of MY price range!

Daisy is awesome in so many ways, Easy milker, Easy kidder, Intense mother, Naturally healthy, Good hooves, and this is her third kidding for me. I'm not being sentimental about this, just would rather not butcher her if there is no real need.

All my herd is for sale, over half my herd is gone now. I respect Daisy enough to not take her to auction or let her go to someone who won't learn how to take care of goats. I'd rather kill her than do that, and I will. But not before I have to.


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## OpieDoodle (Nov 15, 2015)

I'm glad to hear he is doing well! My understanding of parrot mouth is that it is hereditary but I also understand that official "studies" have not been done on it to know for sure, that is just the conclusion that was gathered based on vets seeing it in a few different species. 

With that being said, I would imagine if the doeling is not showing symptoms that she wouldn't develop it over time but it is definitely possible. Personally, I wouldn't risk breeding either the doeling or the buckling. For me breeding the doeling just brings too much of a chance of producing babies with it down the road. 

Has Daisy ever been bred before? Did she have this come up before? I'd consider breeding her again to a different buck. If it comes up again it is probably a good idea to retire her from breeding.


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## Lindan (Aug 19, 2018)

My thinking is that since it's not a very normal defect (at least not here) it might be on a recessive gene, so as long as I make sure that the next buck I get doesn't have it in his lines, it could theoretically be avoided.
The doeling could be a recessive carrier or completely without the genetic marker for the defect? 
I should really be looking into this, does anyone have any good links to breeding/genetics articles?


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## OpieDoodle (Nov 15, 2015)

Lindan said:


> My thinking is that since it's not a very normal defect (at least not here) it might be on a recessive gene, so as long as I make sure that the next buck I get doesn't have it in his lines, it could theoretically be avoided.
> The doeling could be a recessive carrier or completely without the genetic marker for the defect?
> I should really be looking into this, does anyone have any good links to breeding/genetics articles?


I don't think there has been enough research to know how it works. It happens in a few types of animals, more commonly in horses but even horses do not have a real answer for how its passed down. The agreement seems to be that it is hereditary. If it is a straight recessive gene then both parents would be carriers which means the doeling would only have a 25% chance or so of NOT being a carrier.

It could be a variety of things tho unfortunately. If you look up horses there was a couple vet schools that talk about it a little bit but they mention there is not a lot of official research on it.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I think it can have more than one cause.

This is not my picture, but I found it online in an image search. He looks a lot like this.


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