# Judge My Does' Udders



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Hey all, I'm wondering if you could take a look at my does' udders and tell me what you think as far as conformation goes. I have some opinions of my own, but I feel like I'd like to hear what you guys think.
I'm sorry some of my pictures are tilted and that you can't see Bella's medial very well because she's the same color as my stand.😬 And... My lightings not great. If you need more pictures, I can try and get them.

Bella:























Prim:


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## daisymay (Feb 13, 2017)

no one replied yet so i will give it a go... i like bellas udder better then prim.
prim needs rear udder height and arch which would give her better udder attachments which she is lacking.
if you can shave bella a bit that would be easier, but she could use a better arch. i just think of a upside down U instead of a V. you want to see that U on a goat.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Both does really lack attachments and udder height. I think if they had those two things, then they would have really nice udders!! I personally, like Prim's udder better than Bella's because, her teats don't point out as far, better medial, more capacity, and she seems follow the rule of thirds (one third in front of the back leg, one third under the leg, and one third behind the leg) pretty well for an FF (it should also improve with age)!! Prim also looks to have a better fore-udder, but it's hard to tell with all her fluff. The only thing that Bella beats Prim with is rear udder height, but ideally, it should be a lot higher on both does. If you you're able to, it would be really helpful to judge their udder's shaved, but I completely understand if that's not possible. 😉😁


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I thought about shaving them, but I didn't feel like I should put them through shaving, just to take pictures, if you know what I mean. 😅 I just moved them to a pasture with a lot of brambles and I feel like the hair helps protect their udders better. 

I have always felt they lacked rear udder attachment, and capacity in the upper udder. Prim's udder really swings when she moves.😬 Their foreudders are both not very well attatched at all. Somethings you guys cant tell from a picture are that Prim has a wonderfully soft udder. She's a bit easier to milk than Bella because of that. Prim's teats are also a bit farther apart and so when she's really full it's harder to aim in the bucket than Bella. 

You guys have pretty much confirmed what I suspected. Thanks for your opinions! I really appreciate it. 🥰

If anyone else has any more comments I would be glad to hear them!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> I thought about shaving them, but I didn't feel like I should put them through shaving, just to take pictures, if you know what I mean. 😅 I just moved them to a pasture with a lot of brambles and I feel like the hair helps protect their udders better.


I completely understand!


MellonFriend said:


> You guys have pretty much confirmed what I suspected. Thanks for your opinions! I really appreciate it. 🥰


You're welcome! 🥰


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

I don't have anything to add - just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading through this and I learned some things! Thanks for posting, everyone!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Feira426 said:


> I don't have anything to add - just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading through this and I learned some things! Thanks for posting, everyone!


I really enjoy these kind of threads as well! You're welcome!


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## Ella Ruby (Apr 2, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I really enjoy these kind of threads as well! You're welcome!


I am planning to shave some udders today so you can expect another one of these threads soon!
I also enjoy reading them and learn a lot.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Ella Ruby said:


> I am planning to shave some udders today so you can expect another one of these threads soon!
> I also enjoy reading them and learn a lot.


Yay!! Can't wait!!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Hey, @Jubillee, do you mind taking a look at my does udders? If you don't have anything to add, that's fine, but I would love your opinion too.😙


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

What breeds are these girls? What freshenings are they on? How long have they been in lactation?

I agree with everyone else. Both have nice medial and balance, Prim has good balance from the side. Her fore is pretty decent (unless you have felt a pocket). Bella looks like she could have more extention and blending of her fore. I see lack of attachment in Prim for sure, maybe Bella, but her leg hair makes it harder to tell but looks like it's on the looser side. Teats on both could be more properly placed and straight down, maybe even a bit bigger in size. Belle looks to have a bit more height than Prim. I had one that was similar to Prim's (I lost her to fast pneumonia) and when she was more full, she was a bit wider at the top. I have found the stage of lactation plays a role too. Later in lactation, mine aren't as wide looking up top. 

I'd find a buck with a proper udder behind him first and foremost then look at conformational issues your herd may need. For my herd I always choose udders first, then I look at legs/feet, shoulder assemblies and rear assemblies (my herd needed better shoulders and wide rumps). My current buck has the udder I love behind him and super strong feet and legs as well as hardiness from his dam, but his shoulders are set forward. So I hopefully have a buckling baking out there that will correct our shoulders and will still be good udders. Eventually I will combine the two...boy does this take so much time LOL. 

This was Cora uddered up and later in lactation. She reminded me of Prim. If I remember right, her attachments needed to be tighter and her teats needed better placement and size. She was soft though and milked pretty decent.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Thanks so much for your thoughts, Jubilee. They are kinders (kinders are originally a mix of nubians and pygmys) , they are both FFs, and Bella is on day 191 and Prim is on 183. Prim actually has pockets on both sides of her udder. I just realized that Bella has a pocket on only one side of her udder. I wonder if that is because the side with the pocket is the one that her buckling tended to drink off of and he was a lot rougher than her doeling her drank off the other side. 🤔

The bucks I have right now are full brothers and I was able to get a picture of their dam and sire's dams udders
Their dam:








The doe in the middle is my bucks' sire's dam. I know it's not the greatest picture, but it's all she had.









From what I can see, I don't think I'll get a vast improvement from my bucks, what do you think? I've been considering adding a buck. I will definitely prioritize udder conformation above anything else when I decide to find a new sire.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

For a kinder, they are pretty nice IMO. I haven't seen too many pygmy udders but the few I had, they weren't very nice. lol. These udders def look much more dairy-oriented!

Ok so FF. Will be interesting to see how they develop next freshening. They might gain some fullness in the top and slightly better teat placement but the rest wont really change. I have one doe that not overly full, her fore looks decent in pics, when she's super full, it's ugly, you can see the pocket. But I can feel it easily. This last freshening it got worse. 

Yea, I see the same things in the bucks line too. Can you sell them to get a new guy? Or at least one of them maybe?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Jubillee said:


> For a kinder, they are pretty nice IMO. I haven't seen too many pygmy udders but the few I had, they weren't very nice. lol. These udders def look much more dairy-oriented!
> 
> Yea, I see the same things in the bucks line too. Can you sell them to get a new guy? Or at least one of them maybe?


Yeah, I was really surprised at how good their udders look. Prim's father was even a first gen kinder. 

I'm not sure what I'm going to do about my buck situation. I got these boys from a breeder that was selling really nice goats and very interested in improving the breed, so maybe kinder udder genetics just aren't quite where they need to be yet, at least in my area. She recently got some new blood from out west and I'm hoping that by the time I'm ready for an addition, she might have something better for me. I think that kinders just aren't popular enough for there to be that large of a network of super high quality animals to choose from. Being as such, I'll probably only switch out one of my bucks because I feel like I want to work with what I have, if you know what I mean. 😅


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Same here. I'm at a point to use what I have here LOL.

I imagine bucks would be hard to find. It might be one of those situations where you find the best pygmy buck and a good Nubian and go from there. I did that with the mini-Nubians. Or you could breed your boys to a Nubian doe with a better udder then keep a son and see how he does. 

However, I'm quite impressed with them though knowing now they are kinders! I think you have a good start there to try to improve upon them.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I think I'm too dedicated to the kinder breed to go out on my own with crossing. That would also void their kids' registration ability, so I don't see myself doing that. I would love to see the breed improve, and for my goats to improve, but overall they are providing all the milk my family need and that's what we bought goats for, so if my stock never gets any better, I'm still happy with them. 😄

When the time comes, I'll try to find the best buck I can and try not to be too disappointed if he's not the buck of my dreams. 😏


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> I think I'm too dedicated to the kinder breed to go out on my own with crossing. That would also void their kids' registration ability, so I don't see myself doing that. I would love to see the breed improve, and for my goats to improve, but overall they are providing all the milk my family need and that's what we bought goats for, so if my stock never gets any better, I'm still happy with them. 😄
> 
> When the time comes, I'll try to find the best buck I can and try not to be too disappointed if he's not the buck of my dreams. 😏


Would the kids not still be Kinders if you used Pygmies or Nubians in your breeding? With Mini Nubians, you can breed them with either Nubians or Nigerians and still get registerable Mini Nubian kids - they would just be considered F1 Mini Nubians.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Feira426 said:


> Would the kids not still be Kinders if you used Pygmies or Nubians in your breeding? With Mini Nubians, you can breed them with either Nubians or Nigerians and still get registerable Mini Nubian kids - they would just be considered F1 Mini Nubians.


Nope, you can't breed kinders to a nubian or a pygmy and have the kids be kinders. You can only add pygmy and nubian genes by breeding the two together to be able to add nubian and pygmy genes. I think that's what makes them more of a breed than a mixed breed. 🙂 It's getting harder and harder though to get F1 kinders that are along the correct lines of the kinder breed standard. Nubians are moving farther into dairy alone and lots of pygmys are only being breed to be small and cute.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

So your kids are F2 Kinder? Will you be looking for a F2 sire for your doelings and aim for F3 Kinder kids in the future?


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> Nope, you can't breed kinders to a nubian or a pygmy and have the kids be kinders. You can only add pygmy and nubian genes by breeding the two together to be able to add nubian and pygmy genes. I think that's what makes them more of a breed than a mixed breed. 🙂 It's getting harder and harder though to get F1 kinders that are along the correct lines of the kinder breed standard. Nubians are moving farther into dairy alone and lots of pygmys are only being breed to be small and cute.


Oh wow, I see! I had no idea. Well I can see why you like them so much. I understand why you’d want to stick with them!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

NigerianNewbie said:


> So your kids are F2 Kinder?


Actually no. My doe Prim is considered an F2 Kinder and her offspring were then F3 whereas my doe, Bella is F4 and therefor her offspring are F5. I don't know it this is the same in mini Nubians, but the generation is counted from whichever parent is the earlier generation.



NigerianNewbie said:


> Will you be looking for a F2 sire for your doelings and aim for F3 Kinder kids in the future?


I don't really care what generation a new sire is. It's not like mini Nubians where generation is really talked about that much. On one hand it's always nice to see early gen kinders because they have only been recently added to the gene pool, but a later gen kinder is going to display more "bred for" and "stable" characteristics because they haven't been so recently crossed. See what I mean?



Feira426 said:


> Oh wow, I see! I had no idea. Well I can see why you like them so much. I understand why you’d want to stick with them!


Yeah, I think a lot of people see kinders as a mix breed, and it's really not entirely true. If more people understood that, I think more people would have them! 😃 Whenever I am describing the breed to someone I always say that the breed was originally created by crossing a Nubian and a Pygmy, I just happen to leave out the fact that that crossing may have happened recently in the goats' pedigree. 😄


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

MellonFriend said:


> Actually no. My doe Prim is considered an F2 Kinder and her offspring were then F3 whereas my doe, Bella is F4 and therefor her offspring are F5.


Impressive MellonFriend  And yes, the other mini breeds have the same type of categorizing the offspring as 1 level above the lowest sire or dam. The Mini Alpine wether here is a F3, and the buck literally stopped with him breeding up future generations.


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