# BoSe



## logansmommy7

Everyone speaks of giving BoSe shots prior to kidding and to weak kids. How/where do you get it? Is it vet prescribed? Just wondering, wanting to do the best for my goats. Thanks! :whatgoat:


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## AlaskaBoers

Rx, so yes, from your vet. usually only around $20.


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## goathappy

BoSe is a selenium/vit e injection and you get it via prescription from your vet  We give it to our does after they kid(1cc per 40 lbs) and kids get a 1/2 cc after they are born


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## kelebek

You can get it without an RX through Vetserv-usa.com


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## logansmommy7

I am unable to sign on to vetserv...any advice? I put in my password, etc but I don't have a business...so I put my farm name. Of course, I am not a vet...but was checking it out! Help?


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## StaceyRosado

you have to give them all legitimate phone and address. it takes a coupel days for them to approve you.

Giving your herd name is fine -- they take that


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## kelebek

you have to "apply" takes about 2 days for them to "authorize" your account. They will send you an email and then you can order - just make sure to use a farm name


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## logansmommy7

What about selenium? Is that RX?


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## kelebek

BoSe is selenium and vit e --- the vit e helps the body absorb the selenium


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## StaceyRosado

logansmommy7 said:


> What about selenium? Is that RX?


yes it is -- you can get it through Vet Serv you just choose the higher priced one (the vets get the lower price). Once you are authorized you can search through the site but dont look for it by BoSe you have to look under selenium I do believe.


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## kelebek

you do have to look it up by selenium. There are two different kinds that will come up - BoSe - 1mg/ml and MuSe - 5mg/ml - so make sure that you dose correctly.


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## goathappy

And when you order be sure you are getting BoSe and not MuSe, MuSe has a higher amount of selenium and can be toxic for goat use.


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## kornhypknotic

Ok, I'm thinking that a lot of people are getting confused about what is White Muscle Disease (Selenium deficiency) and what is just contracted tendons in their newborn kids.

Contracted tendons is common in multiple births. The babies get so big inside their mom that they are unable to flex their legs and stretch normally in the womb. A few tendons in their legs atrophy and become weak. When they are born it takes a week or two before they can stretch them out and strengthen them until they regain their normal length and strength. That's fairly common and requires no treatment unless you want to provide a little physical therapy to help baby heal faster. This consists of stretching the tendon by hand slowly for several seconds and then allowing it to relax and repeating the stretch. This can be done several times a day until the baby heals.

White Muscle Disease is the common name for either Vitamin E or selenium deficiency (it is used interchangeably for both forms of the deficiency). It's not a little thing. It's a major problem. If you have selenium deficiency in one baby goat then you likely will have it in both siblings, and in many subsequent kids. It frequently becomes an issue for every kid during that season because it's often due to impropper nutrition in the pregnant doe herd's diet. It also not only affects the skeletal muscle tissue (of the entire body, not just legs), but it also can affect the heart and lungs.

Here's a few very informative sites about White Muscle Disease:
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/WMD.html
http://www.jackmauldin.com/health/selenium.htm
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... %2cdisease

Here's a few quotations from the links I listed above about what the symptoms of White Muscle Disease are:



> Most affected kids have been in good condition and are 2-3 mo old (range 1 wk to 4 mo). Commonly, sudden death is associated with cardiac muscle damage. Other kids are depressed, reluctant to move, and appear stiff with a "sawhorse" stance. Muscles, _especially of the hindlimbs,_ are firm and painful to the touch. Treatment is with selenium and vitamin E injection in acute cases.


http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... %2cdisease



> Selenium deficiency, like Vitamin E deficiency, can cause white muscle disease (nutritional muscular dystrophy), causing the goat to have difficulty controlling its muscles. Newborns with weak _rear legs_ may be selenium-deficient. Kids may be too weak to nurse their dams. Pneumonia may result from weakness in muscles that control breathing.


http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/artic ... ral06.html



> Symptoms of selenium deficiency are similar to those of Vitamin E deficiency. White Muscle Disease, also known as Nutritional Muscular Dystrophy, is a condition in which kids are too weak to stand or suckle at birth, they consistently cough, milk sometimes runs out of their nose after nursing, and they develop pneumonia because of muscle weakness in their lungs. In adults, abortions, stillbirths, retained placenta or inability to conceive may result from selenium deficiency.


http://www.jackmauldin.com/health/selenium.htm



> When the skeletal muscles are affected, symptoms vary from mild stiffness to obvious pain upon walking, to an inability to stand. Lambs/kids may tremble in pain when held in a standing position. A stiff gait and hunched appearance are common. Affected lambs/kids may remain bright and have normal appetites, but eventually they become too weak to nurse. When the problem occurs in newborns, they are born weak and unable to rise. Sudden exercise may trigger the condition in older lambs and kids.
> 
> When the disease affects the heart, the animal shows signs similar to pneumonia, including difficult breathing, a frothy nasal discharge (may be blood stained), and fever. The heart and respiratory rates are elevated and often irregular. Skeletal and cardiac muscle disease may occur concurrently.


http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/WMD.html

So if your newborn kid is able to stand and nurse _at all _then they probably just have contracted tendons :clap: . If they are born unable to stand at all and are stiff and extremely painful when touched then you're probably looking at White Muscle Disease.

Since contracted tendons usually heal themselves after a week or 10 days (I've seen kids make a full recovery in as short as 2 days to as long as 4 weeks) . . . if their caregiver gives them a shot of BoSe they might accidentally contribute that shot to their healing, when in fact it had no bearing on the healing process of their tendons. Using it in weak kids will not hurt anything, but a BoSe overdose is relatively easy to give to a very small goat and BoSe toxicity can kill a baby. I don't like to give my kids shots that they don't need . . . but I understand the desire to be cautious.

Just thought I'd share a little from what I've read and experienced personally. :grouphug: Do with it what you will! :hi5:


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## StaceyRosado

while i agree I also disagree to some point

books only tell half the story.

I have had kids born with splayed legs and look "down on their pasterns" this is a selenium deficiency. Some are sucking and some are not so into sucking either. Giving a shot of BoSe within HOURS they are better not weeks. So I know it played a BIG part.

THe other kids who didnt get a BoSe shot in the same litter took longer to get their legs straightened out but I didnt want to be a big pusher of giving BoSe just in case the need isnt there I watched them. so they seem to have come out ok but if I see a need they will get a shot. 

I have also had kids suck good at first and then go down hill fast - have to be tubed, once given BoSe or selenium gel they regain their sucking reflex. 

I also had kids who were sucking just fine and acting just like a normal kid but their legs were splayed out so bad I thought they were hocky and down in their pasterns. Gave them the shot and they were fine in hours. 

at the same time one of my junior does was walking bowlegged so I gave her a shot of BoSe - by that night she was walking almost normal and now a couple days later she is walking fine. 

So there is more to selenium deficiency then just white muscle disease. just my 2cents


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## kornhypknotic

StaceyRoop said:


> while i agree I also disagree to some point. books only tell half the story.


Absolutely! I totally agree that if you have experience with treating contracted tendons successfully with BoSe then keep it up! I'm speaking from my own experience when I say that babies affected with contracted tendons can get over it without supplementation, but babies affected with clinical White Muscle Disease probably will not get over it without help.

My vet flat out _refused_ to give me a script for BoSe last year. I argued with him . . . _a lot_ :angry: . He said to just cull the babies born with Vit E/Se deficiency and that they wouldn't live anyway :veryangry:. I was worried that I would have deficient kids that would die at birth and whatnot . . . it really concerned me. When I saw my first baby with weak fore legs be born I was terrified. I called a friend who is an experienced goat herdsman and he told me to let the baby ride it out and to keep an eye on him. The kid was 100% in about 5 days and only required extra bottle feeding on his first day (he probably didn't even require it, but at that point I was a hovering little mother hen and worried sick about him ). :greengrin:

BoSe is a good muscle and tendon-building/supporting supplement in general. If you have the means to get some and you are confident about the dose for babies then it certainly wont hurt their recovery. :thumb: It would be a great thing to have on hand anyway . . . wish I had some last year . . . not like I'm bitter about it or anything, lol :hair: :help:


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## StaceyRosado

believe me these are not contracted tendons I was talkign about -- agree to disagree on this area


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## kornhypknotic

Oh  . . . but I thought I was agreeing with you . . . :shrug:

Edit:
Ok, I just read my other post and saw where it might have been taken the wrong way. I said " . . . if you have experience treating contracted tendons . . ." I didn't mean 'you' = Stacey . . . I meant it as 'you' = anyone who has treated the condition of contracted tendons.

I'm sorry Stacey! I do agree with you! I just worded my post wrong :hug: The condition you described in those kids that you treated with BoSe _does_ sound like a deficiency. The kids that I treated were never "down on their pasterns" completely like the ones you described. They just had bent pasterns and and weak fore legs.

Sorry again! I got all tongue-tied :doh: :help:

This is a picture of my first kid with contracted tendons. It wasn't nearly as bad as Stacey's kids sounded.


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