# Help with Understanding Nigerian's Height Issue



## HummingbirdMeadowGoats (Oct 1, 2012)

As I was thumbing through the threads I came across height requirement for Nigerians so I measured my Nigerians. The mom measured 22' at withers (if I measured correctly) and the daddy measured 26'. One of the now 7 month old babies measured 17' at the withers. 

My husband and I first thought that the babies were way too small, but in reading some of the posts, it may turn out that they are normal and their parents are way too large!  Is this true, could the babies be the normal size, and if so, when they have offspring how super tiny would their babies be? I could only envision them having babies about the size of kittens or just a wee bit larger.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?onder:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It is possible that you didn't measure correctly. But Nigerians are usually around 3 lbs at birth. If your male is over height, it doesn't guarantee that the kids will be over height but there will be some that will go over height.


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## HummingbirdMeadowGoats (Oct 1, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> It is possible that you didn't measure correctly. But Nigerians are usually around 3 lbs at birth. If your male is over height, it doesn't guarantee that the kids will be over height but there will be some that will go over height.


 Thank you for your reply. I measured from the hoof to the very top of the goat's back because I thought the withers were directly at the top of the front legs. But I certainly could be very wrong.

I appreciate your input on the babies' size because that helps me greatly to understand what is normal.

Thank you for each time you have helped, I appreciate your time and effort.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

the NDGA- measurments-Ideal height of Nigerian Dwarf goats is 17" to 19" for does with does up to 21" allowed in the breed standard. Ideal height for bucks is 19" to 21" with bucks up to 23" allowed in the breed standard. Ideal weight is suggested to be about 75 lbs. Animals are disqualified from the show ring for being oversized for the breed standard
the ADGA-The balanced proportions of the Nigerian Dwarf give it the appearance of the larger breeds of dairy goats, but does stand no more than 22.5" (57 cm) and bucks no more than 23.5" (60 cm). Any color or combination of colors is acceptable.
So the size varies from registry to registry.
Not knowing what size the parents of the buck is, (ie/were they a little tall?) IMHO- I would see what the height ends up being on the kids from this breeding, if they go over then he MAY be passing on too much height. As mom seems fine on her height, if the kids (grown) are with in the size then I wouldn't worry; although, I probably wouldn't breed him to a doe who is tipping the height requirement.
Just my humble opinion.


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## Mrndly (Aug 16, 2012)

at about what age do the kids reach thier mature height?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

They really reach their mature height at about 3 years old.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Mrndly said:


> at about what age do the kids reach thier mature height?


This depends on a couple factors...health and nutrition of the growing goat and genetics. Some nigerians grow fast and by a year or so they're at full height, some take several years. At 4-5 years at the latest, they will be at their full height, whether they grew as their genetics allowed (being well cared for) or they were stunted. Nigerians can really vary in size from individual to individual...even within litters. But care and health is a BIG factor in how well a goat will grow.


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## HummingbirdMeadowGoats (Oct 1, 2012)

clearwtrbeach said:


> the NDGA- measurments-Ideal height of Nigerian Dwarf goats is 17" to 19" for does with does up to 21" allowed in the breed standard. Ideal height for bucks is 19" to 21" with bucks up to 23" allowed in the breed standard. Ideal weight is suggested to be about 75 lbs. Animals are disqualified from the show ring for being oversized for the breed standard
> the ADGA-The balanced proportions of the Nigerian Dwarf give it the appearance of the larger breeds of dairy goats, but does stand no more than 22.5" (57 cm) and bucks no more than 23.5" (60 cm). Any color or combination of colors is acceptable.
> So the size varies from registry to registry.
> Not knowing what size the parents of the buck is, (ie/were they a little tall?) IMHO- I would see what the height ends up being on the kids from this breeding, if they go over then he MAY be passing on too much height. As mom seems fine on her height, if the kids (grown) are with in the size then I wouldn't worry; although, I probably wouldn't breed him to a doe who is tipping the height requirement.
> Just my humble opinion.


Thank you very much for your help, I have copied and pasted your information to a word document so I can go back and read it as needed.

I looked back at his parents and his daddy's name was (or is) Caesar's Villa LV Eric *S. I tried to Google the name to see if there may be any information but I did not see anything that related to the height. I am not familiar with hardly any goat farm names so I have no idea if the folks who owned the goats that birthed the daddy had over the height bucks.

It is not a huge deal to me because we will not likely ever show but if we do ever decide to sell our goats I sure would like to be as educated as possible so that I can share what I know with someone else (as they may want to show goats).


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Eric was at Little Tots Estate for awhile, maybe contact him about Eric and see if he doesn't have any height info. for ya.


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## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

OH on Nigerians is a pretty sensative topic and has divided a lot of the nigerian community.

There was a feeling at one time to be hush hush about your OH buck. I think people were fearful about not being able to register the offspring of an OH buck and maybe having his papers pulled. 

Then there was the ethical part of it. How can a mini breeder sell/use OH animals.

There are no scientific reports saying this OH buck will produce x OH offspring. But I will tell you breeders will try to reach that top limit because usually a 22" doe has more capacity than a 19" doe. And .... 30+% of the scorecard is about the udder ..... you have a lovely doe but I place 1 over 2 because of capacity .......

I think a concern would be if that buck throws his height the majority of the time? If so, then your doe(s) will be delivering large babies and that can be hard on them.


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

I know when i was searching for a buck, i found a lovely buck that was exactly what I wanted............but the people were honest about him being overheight and I ultimately passed on him. Babies that are too big haven't been a problem though, my does are all throwing triplets and quads, even the first-timers! (thats alot of babies lol) I haven't gone out and measured my goats, maybe i'll do that next time i'm hoof trimming, since now i'm curious. Thanks for starting this thread


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## HummingbirdMeadowGoats (Oct 1, 2012)

KW Farms said:


> Eric was at Little Tots Estate for awhile, maybe contact him about Eric and see if he doesn't have any height info. for ya.





PznIvyFarm said:


> I know when i was searching for a buck, i found a lovely buck that was exactly what I wanted............but the people were honest about him being overheight and I ultimately passed on him. Babies that are too big haven't been a problem though, my does are all throwing triplets and quads, even the first-timers! (thats alot of babies lol) I haven't gone out and measured my goats, maybe i'll do that next time i'm hoof trimming, since now i'm curious. Thanks for starting this thread





LilBleatsFarm said:


> OH on Nigerians is a pretty sensative topic and has divided a lot of the nigerian community.
> 
> There was a feeling at one time to be hush hush about your OH buck. I think people were fearful about not being able to register the offspring of an OH buck and maybe having his papers pulled.
> 
> ...


 Thank you. I have found all of your help very enlightening. I am quite taken aback about some of what I have read but at least I now have a better understanding.

Edit: After careful consideration, I think I can in all good conscience, sell any of my goats as Nigerian Dairy Goats (must omit "dwarf" as they would no longer be dwarfs). However, this may be a blessing in disguise as I would no longer have any rules to go by other than to make sure I educate myself on what a good dairy goat looks like and how much milk it produces. As long as I am completely upfront about this with a potential buyer then they can decide for themselves. Yay, I think I have found the answer to my dilemma.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

There is a group that wants to increase the height of ND bucks. They say that in full size diary goats the bucks tend to be "X" % taller then the does (sorry don't know exact number, I'll find it later). The height standard for Nigerian bucks is a smaller % difference. Some breeders are very opposed to raising the height, they say our Dwarf goats will end up looking like "scrawny" Alpines.

If your does are registered...you may want to invest in a buck that is more in line with the standard. If not it doesn't matter. You are actually supposed to turn in the papers of an "over height" buck. You can certainly sell the kids for more if there isn't a good chance they will go over height.


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## HummingbirdMeadowGoats (Oct 1, 2012)

Di said:


> There is a group that wants to increase the height of ND bucks. They say that in full size diary goats the bucks tend to be "X" % taller then the does (sorry don't know exact number, I'll find it later). The height standard for Nigerian bucks is a smaller % difference. Some breeders are very opposed to raising the height, they say our Dwarf goats will end up looking like "scrawny" Alpines.
> 
> If your does are registered...you may want to invest in a buck that is more in line with the standard. If not it doesn't matter. You are actually supposed to turn in the papers of an "over height" buck. You can certainly sell the kids for more if there isn't a good chance they will go over height.


 Thank you very much for your help.

Our goats are registered but I did not spend the extra money for the papers to be transfered, so the papers stayed with the original owner. Of course, now I'm glad I didn't spend the money as it would have been a waste.

My original intent for having goats was to obtain milk and have them clear our underbrush out. I'm so glad my intent was not to show as I would have been sorely disappointed. The reason I started looking more into the standard of this breed was because we would eventually have offspring that would need to find a new home and I was trying to figure out what we have.

I will just have to study hard on what a good dairy goat looks like and is able to produce milk-wise. I will also have to keep very good records of their milk production and sell them only as Nigerian Dairy Goats.

I like to think of this as making lemonade out of lemons. Maybe it will catch on and other people will wind up having to do the same thing as I am and will make a better market for them. OOOOOHHHH :slapfloor:, and maybe there will be a new organization for "Nigerian Dairy Goats".


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## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

you will be selling unregistered Nigerian Dwarf Goats because the papers are not in your name.

the rest is what you want to add.

typically people buying unregistered stock are not worried about height standards.

HTH,


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

When someone says an overheight animal should not be registered, what if you register the animal before it reaches full size? I registered my goats as young kids. Absolutely no way to know what their full size will be for some time. Once you find out you have an overheight animal, are you just supposed to stop registering the animal's kids? 

Just curious how that works.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Yes, actually, I believe it's on the "honor system" so to speak. If you have an over height buck (or doe) you are supposed to turn in the papers and then they list the buck as "over height". We are supposed to be "improving the breed" after all. While size doesn't matter to most people...when you are breeding REGISTERED mini goats "size does matter". You may be on the "raise the height standard" group and that's fine. But, until they do it...we should keep to the current standard.

Now, that being said, I am breeding my Alpine girls to my mini bucks, still hoping to get a doe. And those buck kids are wethered and sold as pets. We may end up putting one in the freezer some day. But, this is just experimenting on my part.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

For me the height does matter -- if there are over-height goats in a pedigree, that can cause big babies. I experienced this with my doe this year. Her grandfather went over-height and she had a kid that looked JUST like him ... and let me tell you what a BIG baby he was!! None of the other kids were as big as him, and still he really towers over the rest of our kids, even the other bucklings. There's a good chance he will go over-height. He's a wether and isn't getting grain, but if he was a buck I would be surprised if he didn't go over.

I also think it is important that to preserve the breed we need to concentrate on keeping them small. However if I was in your shoes I would have no qualms about selling unregistered nigerian dairy goats. I would just tell the buyers why they are unregistered. :thumb:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Di said:


> Yes, actually, I believe it's on the "honor system" so to speak. If you have an over height buck (or doe) you are supposed to turn in the papers and then they list the buck as "over height". We are supposed to be "improving the breed" after all. While size doesn't matter to most people...when you are breeding REGISTERED mini goats "size does matter". You may be on the "raise the height standard" group and that's fine. But, until they do it...we should keep to the current standard.


Actually, this isn't quite correct. The registries don't pull the papers or require anyone to turn them in if a nigerian goes overheight. If they're at a show and measure overheight, they are excused from the ring, but no, they don't ask you or expect anyone to turn in papers. Even LAed nigerians that are overheight. All that is done if an overheight goat is LAed, is the goat is noted as being overheight. I don't know of one breeder/owner out there who has sent in papers because their goat went overheight.

I have no problem seeing a breeder use an overheight nigerian in their breeding program. It's not too difficult to keep those genetics and breed the height down when crossing the correct animals. I personally have an overheight buck in my breeding program. I'm not afraid to admit it and I openly state on his page that he is overheight, as well as let kid buyers know he's overheight. He's not over by much, but even then I choose does to breed to him very selectively. His genetics are outstanding. If he produces very nice kids within the height limit, why wouldn't you use him?

If you look at the top breeders in the US right now...many or most of them are breeding nigerians very close to the height limit for maximum production, ease of milking, etc. They have nigerians that go over. I won't name a certain breeder, but they are extremely well known in the nigerian community, their goats clean up in the ring and they have numerous awards, most of their goats have ch titles, milk stars, and excellent LAs. Their goats are also very close to the limit and have quite a few goats that go overheight or have overheight grandsires. This breeder has made quite an impact within the breed...for the good. And I don't know of many breeders out there who wouldn't want one of this breeder's goats in their herd. So I have to disagree with you.

Let me ask you this. If you have a buck that has sharp withers and goes overheight by half an inch, but throws the best udders you've ever seen and doesn't have overheight kids. Would you turn in his papers and sell him? That just wouldn't make sense...at least to me.


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## WhisperingWillowNDG (Jul 20, 2011)

KW Farms said:


> Actually, this isn't quite correct. The registries don't pull the papers or require anyone to turn them in if a nigerian goes overheight. If they're at a show and measure overheight, they are excused from the ring, but no, they don't ask you or expect anyone to turn in papers. Even LAed nigerians that are overheight. All that is done if an overheight goat is LAed, is the goat is noted as being overheight. I don't know of one breeder/owner out there who has sent in papers because their goat went overheight.
> 
> I have no problem seeing a breeder use an overheight nigerian in their breeding program. It's not too difficult to keep those genetics and breed the height down when crossing the correct animals. I personally have an overheight buck in my breeding program. I'm not afraid to admit it and I openly state on his page that he is overheight, as well as let kid buyers know he's overheight. He's not over by much, but even then I choose does to breed to him very selectively. His genetics are outstanding. If he produces very nice kids within the height limit, why wouldn't you use him?
> 
> ...


I'm definitely with you on this issue. I have 2 goats from the breeder I'm pretty sure you are talking about. One is RIGHT AT the height allowance at 3 years old, the other still well under at 1.5 years. The 3 yr old has the most beautiful udder I've rmever seen


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## WhisperingWillowNDG (Jul 20, 2011)

Sorry... I've ever seen in person and I'm told she's an almost exact replica of her OUTSTANDING dam. I'm quite open about her height on my website, so any buyers are forewarned that her kids may go overheight even if she doesn't. I AM careful to breed her to buck (s) that have no animals that are OH anywhere in their pedigree. I'm not now or ever going to turn in her papers, if you have a goat that's at or over the height allowance, just be honest with your buyers. Let them make the decision. IMHO


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

WhisperingWillowNDG said:


> I'm definitely with you on this issue. I have 2 goats from the breeder I'm pretty sure you are talking about. One is RIGHT AT the height allowance at 3 years old, the other still well under at 1.5 years. The 3 yr old has the most beautiful udder I've rmever seen


My best doe is 21", which I believe is JUSSSST at the limit :laugh: The height is important to me, so I will breed her to smaller bucks, but she IS my best doe.


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