# Inbreeding, Culling, and Goals



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Several discussions lately have touched on these subjects. I would be happy to share the ideal that I am looking for, the parameters that justify culling, and what I'm doing with inbreeding of certain individuals.
Some of this will take a while to type out.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

When I was, I believe three, is when I got my first goat. At least I called her such... Now, my dad's goats came from a wild herd of what is typically called "spanish goats" or "brush goats".
I was one of those children that would go missing while mom was buying milk and they'd find me in the bull pen scratching his nose (yep, really happened).
When I was able to make friends with one of these wild goats while dad was buying honey, the guy gave her to me and this was the beginning of dad's goat keeping.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

These goats had several admirable qualities. They were tough, extremely smart, milked well on little food, and well adapted to their environment.

When I grew up and started my own goat breeding program these became my goals^ I want every one of those attributes in my herd.
To do this does require an amount of cross breeding and inbreeding.
I'd found that getting more than 75% purebred lost many of the things I was looking for...
Good feet that don't require trimming
Ability to use environmental minerals (we'll discus this more)
Intelligence not to break their legs while tied out.

Then I got lucky...


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

OOH. I can't wait. Yet I must


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

So about 4 years ago DH and I had to attend the Herd Jewels buck show. I was meeting a gal there who was going to lease my Alpine buck and in return get his Linear Scores done. We decided to stay and watch the show. Now DH being a little bit of a spender put the only cash dollar he had in a raffle cup. Well, now we're stuck till the end lol.
He won, and a 2 week old purebred LaMancha buck with an excellent pedigree from Barn Owl (Laura Acton) came home with us. That's him in the old bath tub on my avatar.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

He brought with him a really nice case of shipping fever and spent 6 weeks living in the house. I may have the only housebroken LaMancha buck in America lol.

Now, at this point I had what I wanted in couple of my does with the exception of the udder I wanted and the multi-purpose value of the homesteading goat.

This buck shows all of the traits I want.
His breeder, a sixteen year old girl, was looking for show goats and this meaty, short legged, ungainly looking boy wasn't anywhere close to what she wanted.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here he is now, chewing cud


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Now, as this boy grew, I discovered the best thing of all...
This boys feet are so perfect that he's been trimmed twice in four years.
His temperament is exceptional.
He ties out without being an idiot.
He is super gentle and unimposing to his does.
He throws kids that are even better than himself.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Now we kind of start again.
I had taken a break with goats while DH was down with a crushed leg, keeping only my 4 pack wethers.
Once he was better I had bought 4 Oberhasli does, 2 Oberhasli bucks, and, just for fun, 2 Alpine Nubian airplane eared does.
Every Oberhasli was traded for a side of beef...
Then I tried Alpines... Not much better and add in high amounts of mastitis. I took them all to auction.

In reality I started this whole thing over with 2 Alpine/Nubian does and 1 LaMancha buck.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I did skip a lot in the basic outline. Nobody is on now though so I'll skip back.
When I was eleven it was my job to care for the goats. Every morning before school I would milk, tie each goat out to browse, and bring them a water bucket each. In the evening, I would turn them loose, milk, and give them a couple flakes of grass hay. They got 1/2 a coffee can of alfalfa pellets on the milk stand and nothing more than a trace mineral salt block in their pen. This was how homestead goats were cared for in the 1970's. It wasn't wrong or cruel back then.
Rosey, my brush goat, had the talent of having one kid as a yearling and milking for the rest of her life. She never was bred again.
Tinkerbell, my sisters 4H Nubian, was an idiot in comparison. She also liked to sneak up behind you and butt you in the mud when your back was turned.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

There was a long period of learning between when DH and I bought our little place and now. Much the same as I have watched Jessica do for the last eight years. We had poor feet, poor parasite resistance, unstable temperaments, and bad mothers. All of these are culling factors for me. I also truly dislike legs that aren't clean and straight, winged elbows, and dinosaur heads.
One thing we learned is that two people can't breed the same herd of goats effectively. He likes the crazies and I want sweet and gentle. Now, I just put up with his butt of a pet wether and he stays out of my breeding program.
The one thing I could never do though was buy an $800 buck. Winning Dexter changed everything.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here are what I consider Dexter's first kids. This is an aged doe, one of the original Alpine/Nubians. She always looks like the kids are going to take her skin off once she drops. https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/guinens-waiting-room.174445/


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

This is the dark doeling last year as a second freshner







notice how her udder milks down to almost nothing...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Groovey pulled that 2 year old kidding thread up lol.

This is this year.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

She really isn't that much smaller than her dam but what have I achieved here?









Well that turned out tiny lol


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

try again


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Kath G. She's saying so much that we've been discussing.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

@goathiker I love this thread you started! Thank you.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Okay, try on my phone instead


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You mentioned a specific problem with your Alpines. High incidence of infection is not what we want to perpetrate, yes. What was wrong with your group of Oberhaslis?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That one will blow up. 
So, these does are about the same period in their pregnancy. 
Of course the brown grandma shows the effects of age and five sets of triplets plus two sets of twins. One year she accidentally had a set of triplets and an set of twins within 6 months of each other. 
The black girl is three, she shows a lot of udder improvements, a shorter cobbier body style and doesn't sacrifice milk production at all.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Ah the Oberhasli, firing up the computer right now.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I did not want to interrupt your narrative, just wanted to not lose sight of a problem that was bad enough you got rid of it, but not so bad you did not get a good price. (I think a beef trade is a good trade)


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

When I bought the Obers I got a yearling doe in milk and 3 doelings plus two buck kids. The yearling milked well that first year and was giving huge amounts of milk.
The second year it all fell apart. They were already requiring more minerals than I wanted to deal with and one of the doelings had a vitamin B deficiency that required constant monitoring.
The older girl freshened with an udder that literally was within inches of the ground. The entire muscle structure of the udder floor was so weak it couldn't support the weight of the milk.
From the doelings I got, crooked legged kids, retained testicles, an apple-headed dwarf, and no immune systems at all.
The young doelings themselves had teats so tiny it was like trying to milk cats...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

And please do ask questions. I don't know where everyone wants to go with this.

The second freshener was given to a woman that needed milk for her children she had a flat grassy pasture for her to live in and was willing to deal with the udder. I did pull her registration papers.
The remaining does were traded for the side of beef, wethers were sold for veal, and I kept the black Ober buck one year just to keep the remaining two Alpine/Nubians in milk.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

That is a good list. Requiring more supplementation than others do is definitely on my culling card. Thank you.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I think that a lot of the problems with the kid crop came back to problems with minerals but, it seemed like no matter how much I gave them, they always needed more.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

This is a great thread, I'm new to goats but would love to learn how to know whento keep and when to cull. I don't have a clear objective right now, but i have one fanatic doe and two maybes.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Goathiker, What conformation faults are you willing to keep/live with. Things that don't seem as major as hardiness, mothering, and production?

And the Obers and Alpines. Had they been bred locally, or brought in from a distance? (thinking about the larger requirements being more easily supplied where they were bred)


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

my curiosity is the inbreeding, as I'm doing it this year, what is your experience with it?


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I don't want to interupt this either but I need to say this.

I've spent years thinking that this:


goathiker said:


> That's him in the *old bath tub* on my avatar.


was fencing and have always been confused on what kind of setup that would be, that there's also fencing behind his head...and then even more fencing behind that fencing. I've puzzled over that picture more than I care to admit. Part of my TGS life has been a lie. I would have never guessed that that's a bathtub.

That's all, lol. Please proceed.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I’m happy your throwing health into this too! It’s something I think that is over looked when line breeding as well as culling and I know it took me awhile to totally get it but after loosing a buck that always seemed to have a issue and then loosing a good portion of his offspring over the years the light bulb finally went off. I know we, me, focus on pointing out flaws that we can see when it comes to culling and line breeding but health and other things you can not “see” should be considered.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The Obers and Alpines both came from herds within 50 miles of me. They did however, come from show herds that used intensive supplementing to keep the herds show-fit.

Now here's something interesting that kind of goes along the confirmation lines. Franky and Teddy, the two doelings from Guinen. I'll post the pic from my phone.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)




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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

By looks alone it would seem that Franky (belted) is the more desirable twin. She has the short fine coat, the deeper body, and _looks _healthier on first sight.
She sacrifices much for that show quality body, in fact she's on her third strike this year. She aborted her first pregnancy, her second, a single doeling, lived only two days. Her udder was the consistency of bread dough and took much work. Even then she never gave more that a 1/2 gallon a day.
She'd better show improvement this year.

Teddy on the other hand, the rougher weedy looking doe, has given me twins every pregnancy, has never had congested udder or birthing problems. She gives over a gallon a day while nursing at the same time and still milks down to nothing.
The difference is worth the not quite ideal looking doe to me.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Cool thread! Gotta love those Alpine/Nubian crosses.  

Actually, I love the Nubian feet. Our pure Nubians and their crosses tend toward excellent, low maintenance feet and legs that basically trim themselves once they reach maturity. 

I completely understand what you mean about low maintenance animals. We have an Alpine doe that I bought cheap and I wasn't sure if we'd keep because I didn't like her much. I almost culled her because she was overprotective of her own kids and mean to other goats' babies, but I decided to try one more time. I'm glad I did. She turned a new leaf and was our babysitter-in-chief last year. She's got an easy, low maintenance udder and throws beautiful babies that grow quite huge even though she herself is small from a rough start in life. I culled her twin sister who was prettier but had a terrible udder with constant mastitis problems and bad feet.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes!!! I have a “show doe” I have a ton of people who want her kids from her looks and her her lines. If I’m not kidding on the first Saturday of next month she is gone! I thought I made her cystic by giving her lute, maybe I did, but since it was my fault I treated her, got kids last year and is open this year. For being the biggest most healthy goat I have this is not ok and she leaves


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Here I am gleaning great wisdom and insight from goathiker when this pops up:



Lstein said:


> I don't want to interupt this either but I need to say this.
> 
> I've spent years thinking that this:
> 
> ...


I laughed SO hard that both my daughters came running into the room to check on me...


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Great thread! It's nice to hear about your perseverance. Sometimes that is hard to do.

One thing I think we (us goat people  ) do often is compare our goats to other peoples goats...

"I will NEVER have goats like them!"
"I wish my goats where as ___ (healthy, productive, hardy, whatever) as their goats"
"Why do I have so many problems and they never have any?!"

I don't think we're immune to that, even seasoned goat people  I do it all the time!

I have to constantly remind myself "work with what you have. Buy the best you can and breed from there. Rome wasn't built in a day. And those herds you admire? Those breeders put in a LOT of work, time, money and sweat! And everyone has struggles. You're not the only one." 

Anyway, it's easy to get down on yourself. But persevere and 'weather the storm'. You and your herd will be all the better for it.

Pep talk for me and anyone who needs it!


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Wow - I am really enjoying just reading the experiences here - I have 2 goats but love reading how you all are doing everything. One thing I was wondering, you said wild goats, literally running in the wild in a herd and you guys plucked a few out and domesticated them?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Kind of, they were fenced in on about 200 acres of land but, were pretty much left to care for themselves. They were simply there to clear the property.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Wow- I bet that was fun - get to pick the colors and such too. It's amazing to me how hardy goats are.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Not just goats. These people were mostly retired and of course, this was the late '60s early '70s.

One of these guys was a retired botanist. He had bred vegetables that could compete with weeds and brush. He would literally disappear into a giant clump of salal and come out with his arms full of garden produce.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

This time around instead of trying to choose an affordable buck to go with my does, I am choosing does that compliment my buck.
Teddy, of course was bred from the very best of my Alpine/Nubians. She will be staying forever.
Angie, pure white, is 3/4 LaMancha and 1/4 Toggenburg. she will be freshening this year for the first time.
Piper, belted chocolate, is also 3/4 Lamancha and 1/4 Toggenburg. Her dam and Angie's dam were twin sisters but have different sires. She is being held over this year to get some more size on her.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)




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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm quite interested in getting help with finding a buck. I have a new bucking, out of a toggenburg by a boer/alpine buck. I like the looks of him, but he's only 2 weeks old and I'm from the horse world so I'm not sure i know howto judge goat confirmation. His mom is wonderful, but i also have a sister I'm keeping so i don't know that i need him. The other two does are saanen bred to a Nubian. 

What makes a good pack goat? Mostly temperment?


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## Kaigypsygoats (Jan 10, 2018)

Wow what a thread! It has given me some food for thought, some second thoughts too. Did I do right? Do I need registered or just get something? Hm. I am mostly just keeping goats for our own use: milk, dairy products and culling kids as pet food. I do want specific things from the two does and that is good milking ability so...I picked the Nubian from a certified dairy, the other (LaMancha) is from show/milk lines. Having said this, I probably will do crosses a lot because we do not have much to choose from in our area. I am itching to get a Saanen or Saanen cross to practice on and will always cross her with a meat buck. I've no idea if I can get a decent Saanen. The nearest ones to me are very, very expensive and then there is dude with "some goats in his backyard. A lot of different kinds too.

Part of me feels like I'd be wasting the registered girl's talents on just using a meat buck instead of paying extra for the AI; but again, I wanted to start good with good genetics/breeding and go from there. The other half of me is like "who cares 'cause I'm not showing anyway" so bred whatever, feed babies to the pets. Either way, it still cost me the same to feed them, papers or not which is one reason why I went registered with the does but do not mind having one goat who is practice goat but stays forever, like our wether.

Hm. onder:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Temperament is very important as is confirmation. My buck might make a powerhouse on the trails but, with his shorter legs and heavier body he would slow...
My pack boy is 3/4 Alpine and 1/4 Nubian.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)




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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

I am wanting to breed down a Boer into a mini. They are so massive at the chest. GH that goat standing beside the lady is TALL, a beautiful animal. Is that the Alpine/Nubian?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Both Nubians and LaManchas are supposed to be multipurpose breeds for milk and meat. Now with your registered does you can get say an old fashioned LaMancha and register the kids for both does, the Nubian crosses would be in the experimental herdbook and both doelings and bucklings can be registered when you work within that herd book.
Mine are all registered, even the three way crosses.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, that's Pup as a yearling. I'll go get a currant picture of him when they come out of their shed.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Man I bet that goat can jump a country mile, the legs on her reminds of a white tail deer.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

She's a he lol


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Ooopps lol - well He's an impressive goat. How much he weigh?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Somewhere around 180. He's actually much taller now.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Fantastic, I bet he could jump a 6 foot fence or climb it lol -:run:


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

.ok that's good to know. So a 3/4 Swiss type 1/4 boer might also have potential?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If I were to use a meat buck to breed pack goats, I would use a Kiko...


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

That's good to know. My new togg came bred to the boer alpine, So I'm just seeing if he can be more than dinner. The kids will not take too kindly to eating him.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I had a Togg/Boer that was a decent pack boy, a little obnoxious and lazy but, did okay. I didn't get him until he was a yearling and we went a few rounds deciding who was boss.
One of my Saanens was 1/8th Boer. He was great, he came from Carolyn Eddy though


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

And on the inbreeding, how close is too close? How line bred is too Habsburg?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Line breeding doubles up on traits so you only ever line breed on your very best goats and I never do it more than once.
Guinen to Dexter = Teddy, Teddy to Dexter = Lexi. Lexi will always be bred to my daughter's Shady Vale buck.
Teddy is bred to the Shady Vale buck this year but I would never keep a buck out of her and breed him to Lexi, that would be line breeding on Guinen and she's the weakest link.

Then there's another problem. With Franky losing her kids 2 years in a row while line breeding, if she does it again I won't know if it's her fault or if this cross is just too close. She was supposed to go to my daughter's as well but Dexter had other ideas.

The only reason I'm doing this is to check Dexter's genetics. So far all the kids have been really nice. Even though he is white he throws a rainbow of colors and markings. Also the does I have used for line breeding are a completely different breed at the start There is no way that their Alpine/Nubian half is related to Dexter in known history.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The rules I've always heard are father to Daughter or Mother to son but, never brother to sister. Grandfather to Grand daughter is done quite often as is half uncle to niece.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

But half brother to half sister is actually considered “less” line breeding correct? 
On the few times I line bred I actually did like more of the half siblings more then even daughter to sire. Of course still on all of them they all had a different dam thrown into the mix which could have been part of it.
I’ve been watching (ok drooling) some well known, big time boer breeders with stunning goats and a lot of them do a good amount of line breeding......but they also have shown champion bucks too, basically, ideally, no room for THAT buck to improve and no flaws (that are seen)


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes half siblings are less line bred and pretty safe.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Okay here's some muddy goats.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Pup, Dexter, Franky, and DH's coming 2 year old wether in the back.
You can see how dramatically the body style changed from what I was breeding (Pup) to what I'm working with now.


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## Korita (Jan 11, 2018)

Thank you for starting this thread to go farther into my (and so many others) questions! 

I have been watching. Just haven’t said much as I’m soaking in the info and I was in bed pretty much all day feeling like crap with the flu. Ugh 

I’m anxiously awaiting my girls to have their babies so I can see how their udders grow and perform and if they’re good mothers as mostly the main thing I’m wanting in my herd is milk. But with reading so much more, I’m not sure if I want to use my Ober buck next year again as I just can’t seem to get him to look good and his hooves are less than awesome every time I go to trim. But I’ll see what he gives me this year and go from there I suppose since there is so much more to it now than I originally realized and after reading how goathikers better looking doe actually wasn’t as great as the less “ideal” looking bodied doe. 

So much I’m learning and rethinking things.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You may want to check out this thread... https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/doeling-udder-question.186925/#post-1984769

And if you get a picture of your buck from the back showing the twist (from anus to scrotum) and the hair whorls on his legs I can tell you a lot.


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

goathiker said:


> And if you get a picture of your buck from the back showing the twist (from anus to scrotum) and the hair whorls on his legs I can tell you a lot.


Following... & fascinated.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I decided to just move these here for everyone.


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## Korita (Jan 11, 2018)

Getting a picture of my bucks back side is tricky. Lol He's timid and will not turn his back on you. I did get this one of him when trimming hooves because I sent it to my vet. I was afraid he got frost bite on his scrotum. She said it looks like a callus. His scrotum and testicles were huge this summer/fall compared to what they are now and now he has this going on on the bottom side of his scrotum. To me it's scary looking and I'm not sure what to make of it.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It's hoof mites. They feed there while he's laying with his scrotum on his hind feet.


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## Korita (Jan 11, 2018)

goathiker said:


> It's hoof mites. They feed there while he's laying with his scrotum on his hind feet.


Oh no! What do I do for that? I've been trying to figure out what to do for his hooves too as this last trim I did he's got some separation on the sidewalls on a hoof and I was thinking beginning of hoof rot. I didn't get a photo but now I wish I had as I'm not sure if the treatment is the same as these hoof mites?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

For the mites give one cc per 40 lbs of ivermectin injected, 3 times, 7 days apart. Then pour 1 cc per 25 lbs of CyLence down his backline.

For the hooves, everywhere that there is a pocket, cut all of the hoof wall away to open it up. Spray or wipe lightly with bleach (don't get it on his skin. It should bubble and clean all infection away. The hooves should grow out better then.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

One thing to think about though... Have you heard the saying that 1% of your goats carry 80% of your parasites? Yeah, ^^ that's probably your 1%.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

All right so my daughter sent me some better pictures of poor pregnant Teddy. Teddy,Piper , and Lexi are staying at her house this winter until I can get my barn roof fixed.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)




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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here is the young buckling she is bred to. He is going to be huge, he not even quite a year old. The little gal handling him is 4' 11''


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)




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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

So what is this boy


















going to improve on this girl



















and what will she improve over him???


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

Here is Piper. These were taken before she got copper bolused. I will post new pictures in the morning that show how much she improved confirmationally after a couple months.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

what do you think of Letty's back end?


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

I would say that buck will give her some heart depth and bone. She's got a better back end set up. He looks straight legged behind. 
But i am again coming from a horse back ground!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You got both of those 
Now, what is the trademark of the Arab that you lose when you cross with a QH?


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

A beautiful, well formed head?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Exactly and? One last thing


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

Long legs and endurance?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

goathiker said:


> You got both of those
> Now, what is the trademark of the Arab that you lose when you cross with a QH?


Actually, you GAIN something by crossing an Arab with a QH--one more lumbar vertebrae.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)




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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The ears guys... The buck is gopher eared lol


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

spidy1 said:


> what do you think of Letty's back end?
> View attachment 128086


Letty's udder is going to be lower and tucked a bit more forward than a dairy girl, that's normal for a Boer. It looks well formed and her attachments look fairly wide in the back. She will probably have more forward pointing teats with tighter forward attachments.
Something really interesting for the dairy people to look at though. The left hair whorl is higher than the right as is the left teat higher than the right. This udder is going to be slightly lopsided or one side will be bigger than the other. With meat goats though you only need a well attached functional udder that feeds kids easily and ages well.


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

I was going to say something about the ears!  The buck should improve ears a lot. He has perfect gopher ears.


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## Korita (Jan 11, 2018)

So in my 3 girls.... Nelli (lamancha momma) has elf ears while one of her daughters (Lucy) has gopher ears and the other (Ethel) has airplane ears and those cute little wattles. Lucy and Ethel's Dad was a Boer. So are gopher ears usually preferred over elf ears?










While checking out udders these are my girls. Only Lucy has started filling hers so far and I can't remember what Nelli's attachments looked like when she was full last year when nursing.

Lucy









Nelli









Ethel


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Wait wait wait, nobody in that pen has gopher ears. There are 2 elf ears and an airplane ears.
Just a sec...


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## Korita (Jan 11, 2018)

Oh I thought Lucy’s were gopher ears since they are a bit longer and flap over a bit. Hhhmmmm I’m guessing you’re finding me a picture of gopher ears? Ha ha Teach me oh wise goat master


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Gopher ears have no ear flap at all.


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## Korita (Jan 11, 2018)

Oh wow. I feel like a dummy. Clearly I don’t see gophers much. *Insert palm to forehead here* I swear I’m a natural blonde buts it really is the kids that have made me “blonde” ha ha


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Well, they say you lose x many brain cells with each kid. You do grow them back after they leave, I promise.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

Ooh, i didn't even cop on to ears. I can't milk them or ride them...


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

Korita said:


> So are gopher ears usually preferred over elf ears?


In the lamancha breed standard, both gopher ears and elf ears are acceptable, but they will not accept any bucks, even as experimental, if they do not have gopher ears. Does are allowed to have elf ears as long as they are shorter then 2 inches.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Experimental bucks actually can be elf eared. They can't be registered as American though no matter what generation they are.


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

goathiker said:


> They can't be registered as American though no matter what generation they are.


Thats where I got mixed up. I was thinking that it wasn't worth registering a buck as experimental because it would take too long to try and breed them back up to purebred when I only have 3 goats Somehow I got that mixed up and set in my head that they couldn't be registered when they had elf ears


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Actually you have 4 since you're keeping Lexi in trade for Jayla's buck kid...


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

goathiker said:


> Actually you have 4 since you're keeping Lexi in trade for Jayla's buck kid...


Really? That's great! Thank you!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No problem and if Franky has a living doe kid you can have her as well.

Or you can breed Jayla to Dex for another purebred line.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

So what kind of ears does my old lady have?















And what would these be considered, if anything?


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

Do you want a doe kid back from Guinen since they will be unrelated to Dexter? I told her I was ordering 3 doe kids so she better deliver as expected. Or wait and see what Teddy has?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Elf ears

Elf ears
and
Cookie ears... I didn't make that up, they were in the old standard before ADGA changed it.


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

The cookie ears are cute!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm hoping Teddy will give me a doe.


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

Here is a good picture of a gopher ear. She has no ear, lol.


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

Her ear folds to the back and she just has a tiny ear tip sticking out.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Hers are nice, people on here thing that they get ear infections all the time. I've never seen one.


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

It might happen on a rare occasion if they get hay seeds or something stuck in them, but I would think that could happen to any breed of goat, not just Lamanchas


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Plus they really don't care about our 6027 days of rain a year. They go out anyway...


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok I get it now!! 
Lol I like the cookie ears too! Now that kid is 3/4 so those ears say to me “I tried to be long but it just didn’t happen” lol


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The ears in the beginning of breeding up are quite fun and varied. If you're using a purebred buck though, by the time you get to Americans there are hardy anything but, gopher ears and an elf eared purebred would be pretty much impossible.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Letty's udder is going to be lower and tucked a bit more forward than a dairy girl, that's normal for a Boer. It looks well formed and her attachments look fairly wide in the back. She will probably have more forward pointing teats with tighter forward attachments.
> Something really interesting for the dairy people to look at though. The left hair whorl is higher than the right as is the left teat higher than the right. This udder is going to be slightly lopsided or one side will be bigger than the other. With meat goats though you only need a well attached functional udder that feeds kids easily and ages well.


Perfect!!!! I can't wait for her to freshen! lopsided, not a problem, teets more forward than Mama, I need that! I'm so excited she is confirmed prego! I GET BOER MILK!!!!! 


goathiker said:


> Cookie ears... I didn't make that up, they were in the old standard before ADGA changed it.


cookie ears? I have never heard of that, WANT , what kind of ears would you say Letty has? Cookie...maybe?????!! I know Mama has elf, but Letty's are a bit longer?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If they are under 2 inches long then they are Elf. If over 2 inches , in the old standard they were called long elf if they folded. Cookie ears are flat like Jessica's doeling.

Unfortunately ADGA did away with designating the longer ears and only count the shorter ones anymore.


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## LamanchaAcres (Jan 11, 2013)

goathiker said:


> The ears in the beginning of breeding up are quite fun and varied. If you're using a purebred buck though, by the time you get to Americans there are hardy anything but, gopher ears and an elf eared purebred would be pretty much impossible.


We have an American doe with elf ears. Dam also had elf, and was American. Sire has gopher and is purebred. My girls sister also had the elf, their brother was gopher. Ears can be full of surprises!


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

Even in the gopher ears there is alot of variety.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

So besides trekking us that is a la Mancha goat, what do the small ears do for the goat?
Do needed lose track of other good but less visible features focusing on those ears? I'm genuinely curious, even though that sounds goady.
I ask because many a fine breed was nearly or completely ruined by focus on a unique physical trait that had little bearing on the use of the animal. ..


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

Argh! 
Besides telling us...
Do breeders lose track...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

See that's the beauty of the LaMancha. Since the ADGA herd books are still open for the breed we are still breeding the best genetics into the breed.
My foundation does were my favorite Alpine/Nubian and a Fir Meadows Toggenburg that won best udder at Nationals when aged 12. I am only 3 generations away from purebred now. The ears just happen, you don't have to do anything special to cause that part.
My buck's sire's dam was Barnowl abracadabra, the 1996 Nationals Grand Champion and best udder. His sire is a SGCH and his temperament is exceptional.
His dam was a ff but his grandparents on that side are both SGCH.

I only have room for about 6 to 8 goats so, they are going to be the best I buy or breed.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Einhorn said:


> I ask because many a fine breed was nearly or completely ruined by focus on a unique physical trait that had little bearing on the use of the animal. ..


I actually was wondering the same thing. That was a good question, and not goady at all.

@goathiker How did you develop that disregard for weather? Was it a trait in your foundation does? The 2 Alpine/Nubian crosses? Do you regard this as genetic, or learned, behaviour?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Okay weather wise and small ears... I'm losing track of questions lol.

In a weird way this is the same question.
We can't discount the 4 original bucks. The monks that built that monastery did so more than 200 years ago. By the time Mary Frey found the herd she was searching for in the 1950's these goats had been in Oregon for many many goat generations. Given the lack of regard for all the extras we now feel goats need, even with the monks hand harvesting winter food and doing the best they could, it would have been nothing like now days.
The goats, of course adapted, that is their talent. There would have been a certain amount of survival of the fittest. The 4 bucks that were left when the herd was discovered would have been the strongest and best adapted _to Oregon,_ no longer to Spain.
By keeping the ears, the short cobby body, and other genetic markers that are uniquely LaMancha I think the careful breeder can keep some of the survival traits as well.

The ears, or rather lack of, mean no heat loss through large ear vessels. Long African ears are meant to cool the goat. A wet Nubian is also feeling freezing cold, a wet LaMancha is just wet.

Of course, as I type this I am watching my heavily pregnant doe pick her way across the creek to the pasture so, yes, there is some environmental pressure as well.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

goathiker said:


> The ears, or rather lack of, mean no heat loss through large ear vessels. Long African ears are meant to cool the goat. A wet Nubian is also feeling freezing cold, a wet LaMancha is just wet.


Second that! My pure Nubians get noticeably colder in wet weather than my Alpines and crosses. However, since I live in a desert mountain area with low humidity and lots of sunny, hot, dry weather the Nubian blood is a good match for our climate.

One funny thing Nubians do in freezing weather is they cock their heads sideways when they drink, with one ear hanging outside the water trough and the other ear held just above the water. Otherwise their ears get dunked in the water and can freeze. Clever goaties!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Damfino said:


> Otherwise their ears get dunked in the water and can freeze.


Call me dumb, but I like airplane ears for just that reason. My airplane ear Boer crosses stay cooler in our summers, and don't get their ears wet. I only have a couple with Nubian in them, so that is why I said my Boer crosses.


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## TeyluFarm (Feb 24, 2016)

This thread is absolutely fascinating and does help me decide what I want for my future herd.

Thank you for posting it. I would LOVE to be able to one day meet and pick your brain Goathiker. I read so many of your posts and I am floored by the amount of information I can pick up from just that.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

goathiker said:


> ...getting more than 75% purebred lost many of the things I was looking for...
> 
> Ability to use environmental minerals (we'll discus this more)...


Highly interested in this one, should you be able to get back to it.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

mariarose said:


> Highly interested in this one, should you be able to get back to it.


Me too...


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## Kaigypsygoats (Jan 10, 2018)

Einhorn said:


> And on the inbreeding, how close is too close? How line bred is too Habsburg?


Habsburg?! :lolgoat::lolgoat::lolgoat::lolgoat: :haha::haha::haha:


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I think @Einhorn meant Hapsburg, the European family who married ALL the other royal Europeans and had gobs of kids who all married each other all over Europe, finally producing idiots and hemophiliacs, leading indirectly (note I said INDIRECTLY) to things like WWI and the Russian Revolution.

Yeah, the Hapsburg family was an interesting phenomenon of "Pure Royal Blood". We don't want to go there, but it would take a lot of inbreeding over a very long time to approach that level. I think we're safe, especially since goats aren't usually allowed to run empires anymore.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

I had the "Habsburg jaw" more in mind than WWI... www.google.com/search?q=habsburg+lip&oq=habsburg+lip&aqs=chrome..69i57.6257j0j4&client=ms-android-att-aio-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=0R8UePY1UnNgIM


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

That.... is an equally horrific phenomenon. Sorry.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

No worries, though i rather liked the idea of a caprine empire!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Ability to use environmental minerals (we'll discus this more)


Still would love to know more about this, as I'm trying to breed a herd that is OK with the mineral challenges here.

When you can.

No hurry

....

...

I'll wait.

:7up:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Environmental minerals

I cringe every time those old Geological survey maps are brought up on here. Those surveys were done in the late '60's, early '70's. From 2 to 11 samples were taken from each state, mostly in mining areas. Those maps are worthless unless your hay is being grown on that exact spot... They were looking for bomb makings for the cold war lol.
How many minerals can an annual, being grown on worn out soil, really gather? Not a lot. The farmer has to balance the soil exactly properly and the weather has to be exactly right for uptake.

So where do goats get minerals? Well, the older the plant the more minerals are contained in it's tissue. Bark contains more minerals than soft growth.
A natural herd browses about 3 miles a day, they don't return to the same spot for weeks. They browse, they don't graze. This allows the goats to eat on trees and brush and it heals while they are gone.
Unless they are trained not to, pack goats eat constantly while hiking. I allow mine to do so. They are eating all the time but, never stop moving (unless they find a Huckleberry bush). Most people don't have the land to allow this but, why do so many clear all the good stuff off in favor of the more unnatural pasture plants?

Since we can't give our goats a forest to browse the next best is to supply chelated natural minerals rather chemical replacements.


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

goathiker said:


> I cringe every time those old Geological survey maps are brought up on here. Those surveys were done in the late '60's, early '70's.


To clarify, are you talking about USGS maps that show Copper, Iron, or Selenium, like here?:
https://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/countydata.htm


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@goathiker
I am so very lucky to be able to provide a forest and clearings in the forest that I grandly call pastures. I've noticed the goats attack the trees a lot less when I'm diligent about my minerals. Also, Barberpole worms don't bother us as much as you would expect considering where we are.

Everyone who is really interested in this, and how plants can and can not work should really watch Dirt. The Movie. I can highly recommend it. I watched it and immediately started planning a perennial food garden, rather than all annuals.

Regarding eliminating natural browse, I've often recommended splitting up pasture and actually planting browse (brush and shrubs) and keeping goats out of that section while they get started. I did not mention minerals, but parasite control and general health. Now I'll add minerals to the reasons I give people.

But I'm not listened to much.

Every year I have approximately 3 weeks when I take away my free choice supplements and watch who is immediately affected and who keeps condition longer. This information goes into my culling evaluations. It is just part of it, not the whole thing.

Unfortunately, giving them a wilderness does lead to other problems. We have predators that do predate. Also MW and Liver Flukes is probably more of an issue for me than for some others because I can't keep them away from deer and snails. Those problems are decreasing...very...slowly...

None of my mineral mixes are high in salt, so if I have a bag that does not work out for one reason or another, or one of my buckets get peed in, say, I will take that mineral mix and broadcast it in one of the pastures as a laid back remineralizing practice. I don't know if it is working, but I feel OK about it.

Thank you so much for this thread, Goathiker.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Last year when I was having issues I looked into nitrate poisoning and such and actually learned a lot about minerals and such with plants! Different plants suck up different things and depending on how fast they grow or how slow they grow on how much of that they “put out”. At the same time my parents had their soil tested. The guy who did it was so very helpful and came out to get the samples and kinda guide them on how far the samples should be and such. It was AMAZING how different the samples changed from one area to another! The whole stretch was probably 1/4 mile so it wasn’t a huge area. 
I just thought the whole thing was very interesting!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

So did you end up having nitrate poisoning? What was the best source for your education, would you say?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I read on here once that if a doe gets plenty minerals throughout her pregnancy, the kids are less prone to mineral deficiencies, but if a doe is deficient in any type of minerals, the kids are more susceptible to that deficiency later in life. Thoughts?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Suzanne_Tyler I have noticed that families within my herd will often show the same tendencies toward needing this or needing that mineral. If what is really happening is that a fetus' system (say... skeletal system?) is compromised for lack of a mineral, I could see that system constantly demanding more to keep it functioning.

That would take it away from the genetic bailiwick where I had firmly placed it, and put it into a management issue bailiwick (like a gut being compromised by untreated cocci that does not kill but does permanent harm)

Of course, I'm not claiming to know, but you've given me something to think about.


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## intrepid-dreamer (Jan 2, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> I read on here once that if a doe gets plenty minerals throughout her pregnancy, the kids are less prone to mineral deficiencies, but if a doe is deficient in any type of minerals, the kids are more susceptible to that deficiency later in life. Thoughts?


I have been told that in relation to copper deficiency, so it could certainly apply to other deficiencies. I have one doeling I bought last year that i keep having to shove copper down to keep up. The herd she came from didn't supply additional mineral supplements.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

It is interesting to see this thread. I posted a similar one elsewhere about some BAD goats that I cannot wait to get culled. They all have kids or are on the verge of kidding so I will have to wait. I will be counting down the days and take in all the mothers and possibly the kids at 12 weeks.

I am not a pure-breeder. Mine are mainly dairy mixes and I am trying to get mostly lamancha-nubian mixes. These seem to be solid healthy goats and I love the short ears.

I have a few goats that will go to the sale for sure this year if they don't sell. They aren't bad but they aren't goats I really want so they need to go. Then there are the 3 that I cannot wait to get rid of.

My criteria for keeping or culling include the following
-Personality - these are kinda like pets to me. If they are obnoxious, they need to go. Pygmies are not pets if you ask me. They are pains in the butt! They have the WORST personality of any breed.
-Quality of kids and mothering ability
-Health
-Looks (this is the least critical)

So, let me explain why I hate the terrible trio so much.
The first goat is part pygmy from my experiment with pygmies (NEVER AGAIN!) so her personality is terrible. She is also crazy and just dumb. She throws these fits and just goes nuts for whatever reason. She also comes from a long-line of unhealthy goats. I wanted her gone last year but my GF convinced me to keep her as she didn't want her going to the auction. She requires constant care and wouldn't survive without frequent wormings. Just about the time she starts to look decent, the worms take hold again. She gave birth to two kids last year. Neither were healthy. One died and the other was sold for meat. I didn't intend to breed her again and the plan was to move her down the road this year but she got bred when the buck broke down the fence. Anyway, she had two kids just days ago. One seems fine while the other was puny and about 1/3 the weight of the bigger one. She had one of her random freakouts just after kidding and about took my left eye out and stomped her puny baby to death. If it hadn't been for the other baby surviving this freakout, I probably would have shot her right then and there. I spent the next several hours washing all the sand and dirt out of my eye. She has these freakouts from time to time and just appears to be crazy. She probably comes in dead last of the three based on my rating criteria. Her personality is HORRIBLE, her health is HORRIBLE, her mothering is bad although she is taking care of the one kid, and her looks are only OK when she isn't all rough and ragged looking which is pretty much all the time.

The next two of the three are a mother-daughter combo of the Nubian-Lamancha mix I desire. I purchased the mother as a mother-daughter combo as well. The oldest (grandmother) is a good goat. She has great babies (at least on my place with my buck), is healthy, looks great, and has an OK but not excellent personality. Her daughter was a yearling when I got the pair. She kidded with my buck and was a pretty poor mother. It was by the grace of god that both babies survived to adulthood. I figured I would give her one more chance as that was her first time. Anyway, she had kids a week or so ago and all but neglected them. The weaker of the two died while the stronger survived by sicking on any mother when it got the chance. I own my own company and was working long hours so didn't have the time to watch everyone super close. I was about to just get rid of that goat but noticed she actually started taking care of her baby and this seems to be improving so will keep her unless things change. AS of now she seems properly bonded with her baby and seems to be doing a decent job. She will still need to go if you ask me.

The last goat is the daughter of the one above and was produced from my buck. She seems healthy but rates terrible on personality and her looks are not that great. Her mothering is to be determined and SOON because all signs point to imminent kidding. I am guessing she has two kids in her based on her size. She was bred a little young but that is besides the point. In terms of causing me grief, she may beat out the first goat. Her personality is terrible and she has this bad habit of just going through my electric fence. Her mother (2nd goat on this list) did this as well and she eventually learned that wasn't a good idea. This one just gets shocked over and over again and you can smell the burning hair and skin. She just doesn't care and goes right through the fence. This is basically a daily occurrence at this point and quite incredibly frustrating.

She thinks this behavior is "cute" and then there is the fact that she resists me every step of the way when I have to catch her and get her back in where she belongs. She goes limp and becomes a dead weight that I have to basically drag along. Then there is the fact that in recent weeks she has become so pregnant that she is basically a round ball. So, she just drops down on the ground and rolls downhill for a bit. Sometimes she comes to rest upside down and looks like a bloated dead deer with its legs up in the air on the side of the road. She is SO pregnant! Again, it seems she thinks this is "cute." This one is a huge pain and needs to go ASAP once the kids are raised.

My GF has done a 180 and is all for me getting rid of goats I don't want after seeing all these problems. Some goats are just bad news and need to be culled. Then there are the ones that are just there. They aren't bad goats but aren't good either. I will give them until the last good fall sale to sell to others and then any that are left will go!

Then I have my favorites like the one who gave birth to quadruplets and successfully raised them herself. Her udder was HUGE and she even had milk to spare for a few other kids that sucked on her. She is very docile, affectionate, and follows you around like a dog. Many of her offspring are the same way so I have kept them around. They are good mothers and you don't have to fight with them.

Bad goats need to be culled. I always tried to move them along but my GF fought me on this last batch but even she learned that this isn't a good idea. They need to go!

Conor


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## flatmountain (Aug 14, 2010)

fascinating thread!!
A few random thoughts come to mind. For those that mention trouble with moms being good moms for the first week-ish after kidding- in dogs this is often shorter like a few days and long time breeders tell me it is very often a calcium deficiency. Now there is a genetic component and the body is supposed to be able to pull calcium and utilize it more effectively during lactation but some dogs have a tough time balancing this. So in the line of this culling and selecting it would be a consideration but for the first few days after kidding dealing with this MIGHT helps short term to give high dose oral calcium for a few days. Just an idea.
browse vs grazing... This has been on my mind a lot. We have deer and rabbits and snails galore and I just have to live with that but parasites are an issue. When I very first started with goats, I didn't hardly ever have to deworm. I think it was well over a year before I had the slightest issue at all. BUT I had a ton of browse that the goats were busy preferring and the whole first winter they stripped my little pine tree grove of bark. I expected this and its why we didn't cut out the pines, but now that the browse is mostly gone they graze more. I also used to "walk" my goats. I would walk with them like a little shepherd for about an hour a day with my 2-3 goats and hey would strip low hanging leaves off trees and eat daisies and tall weeds and such. My kids (human) were younger and the walks were a way to let them play in the creek or whatever and run out some energy. Now I have less free time and the people kids are older and busy and I am a human taxi during sports seasons. All if this to say that I didn't really think about it but management has changed as well as my goats. So maybe I can't blame ALL the issues on weaker resistance.
I 100% agree this thread has been extremely thought provoking and helpful. I am liking the temperament on my lamancha cross so, finally about to maybe go for a mixed breed dairy supposedly bred for hardiness and milk production. Still deciding to goat-up again or not???


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

The calcium deficiency might explain the one that is consistently unhealthy not being a good mom. She seems fine now and is taking good care of her surviving baby but she is still as crazy as a loon and has a TERRIBLE personality to people and other goats. She is a definitely cull. Again, she comes from a line of bad goats. I wanted to get rid of her last year but my GF wanted me to keep her for some reason. My GF is ready for her to be gone now.

The other one that has been a bad mom and annoying on other fronts is just dumb and also doesn't have the nicest personality. She seems healthy but just not a good goat.

The third one hasn't kidded yet but it will be anytime so we will see. Her mother is a terrible mom so we will see about her. The fence busting habit of this one (daily occurrence) has put this one on my immediate cull list once her kids are raised. So this one and her mother have bad personalities. Obviously that is inherited. My guess is that this came from the buck (not mine) as I also have the grandmother from this group and she is fine. I wasn't planning to cull these two but they have turned into problems for me.

The rest of my goats all eat the same stuff and get mineral supplements as well as the ADM protein blocks which have SOME minerals as well. I really like those blocks as they will pretty much crumble in your hand or if wetted like a sand castle. They are not hard on the goats teeth and such like some blocks/tubs that are basically rock candy.

Conor


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

mariarose said:


> So did you end up having nitrate poisoning? What was the best source for your education, would you say?


Sorry sometimes I miss posts. No it didn't turn out to be nitrate poisoning I am 99.9% sure it was selenium deficiency. I took a lot of precautions this year, left loose selenium salt out for them, gave bose a minimum of 30 days before kidding and everything was happy and healthy even does were much more healthy BUT we didn't get the rain like we did last year so I'll let you know on the next wet year.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Are there any mineral supplements that are suggested? I usually only care about selenium and copper and don't worry about the other ingredients as much.

I get whatever is cheapest and has a good amount of copper and selenium, otherwise I haven't found a preferred brand or style of mineral. Any suggestions?

My goats all get the same thing and most seem to do great on what I give them. There is the problem of the culls I mention but those are isolated.

Conor


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, we can give you ideas. What are some of the mineral mixes you have used in the past?

That'll give us an idea of where you are starting from.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

cwatkin said:


> Are there any mineral supplements that are suggested?


Here is a thread that you may really enjoy reading.

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/excellent-minerals-you-know-how-i-love-me-those-minerals.194612/


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

flatmountain said:


> finally about to maybe go for a mixed breed dairy supposedly bred for hardiness and milk production.


It's a big decision. Just keep your goals in mind and be alert to previous prejudices that may not be based in your current reality. And remember, a goat is not permanent, and you are allowed to change your focus. Just a few goats end up being friends and you'll be loathe to part with them, so don't be too swayed by coat color, or ear shape.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I can get the Manna Pro, Stockade, and Purina offerings here in town quite easily. I have been going with the Stockade as the price is right and it has lots of copper and selenium. The goats also eat it right up. Any comments on Stockade goat mineral? It comes in a white bag as plain as it gets with a nutrition label stapled on.

Conor


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Can you tell me which of these you mean, Conor?

http://www.stockadebrands.com/all-products/beef-cattle/mineral/loose-mineral/


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I am not sure. The bag wouldn't open using the normal pull strip so I ended cutting the top with the nutrition tag off. Anyway, I am left with plain white bag and no way to tell. It was the cheapest option at the local feed store. They said it would be fine as long as their other nutrition was good so figured there was no point in getting something more expensive.

It was about $15 per 25 lb bag if that gives any insight.

Otherwise I will check next time I buy another bag which looks to be soon.

All the goats but one have good full shiny coats and that one is now on my cull list for multiple reasons as soon as the baby is raised. The kid will also go to meat as it is a buckling.

Conor


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good advice.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Are there any questions that I haven't answered yet?


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Would you talk about Multi Min? Whe should it be given, or not, etc.
I have free choice minerals, either Onix or sweetlix (not sure of spelling). Our area is really deficient in so many minerals. Too much farming the last 200 + yrs. 
Thanks so much!


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## flatmountain (Aug 14, 2010)

What is a dinosaur head?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm pretty sure it's one of these:


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

What issue is your current focus? This does not prevent you from revisiting already mentioned issue. Just, what are you looking at this year (personal herd- wise)


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Damfino said:


> I'm pretty sure it's one of these:
> View attachment 129294


I thought it was just a large head as compared to the body.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, that it what I'm looking about. It like a small fine head that is proportionately small to the body.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I've never used multimin so really can't comment on it. 
Using a mineral shot isn't sustainable and not in keeping with my goals.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> I thought it was just a large head as compared to the body.





goathiker said:


> Yes, that it what I'm looking about. It like a small fine head that is proportionately small to the body.


Oh. I was more thinking of the shape. My boy Sputnik bears a strong resemblance to this guy here:









The resemblance becomes even stronger when I have cookies in my pocket. 

If it's all about the size of the head in proportion to the body, that's one thing I like about the Alpine/Nubian crosses. They tend to have smallish, nicely proportioned, wedge-shaped heads with broad foreheads, sharp muzzles, and deep jowls. Most Alpine/Nubian crosses are not Roman-nosed like Sputnik. His Roman nose could put a lot of purebred Nubians to shame, yet both of his parents had straight profiles! Genetics sure are funny sometimes.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks goathiker. I just wondered about multimin. I figured if anyone might know, you would.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Dave uses it...


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## LamanchaAcres (Jan 11, 2013)

Goats Rock said:


> Would you talk about Multi Min? Whe should it be given, or not, etc.
> I have free choice minerals, either Onix or sweetlix (not sure of spelling). Our area is really deficient in so many minerals. Too much farming the last 200 + yrs.
> Thanks so much!


I use it instead of a copper bolus. I do 1cc for adults (goats 100+lbs) and then .5 - .75 for kids, depending on size. Ill give a little more if they're a bigger animal / need a little more than others. We do it every 4 months in addition to minerals but may have to adjust the time depending on how deficient your area is. Works great for my herd, I'm in an extremely deficient area as well.


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