# George (10 yo wether) is sick - advice? - UPDATE he is better



## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

This is the same goat from this thread.

His FAMACHA score is light pink. He is still very skinny/bony/emaciated looking despite the fact that he has been getting protein mush for the last 2 weeks.

The mush I have been giving him every evening consists of:

2 cups alfalfa pellets
1/2 cup or less of beet pulp
Goat Balancer pellets (following label directions for his weight)
A little bit of BOSS.
6 Senior Snax horse treats
All mixed with some water and a drizzle of molasses (the kind in the big jugs that they use for deer).

He also has had some sweet feed on random days, because that is the only thing that will get him to move when we need to move him.

Last night he had his mush and was acting fine. He has been getting b complex shots daily as well (for anemia) and red cell almost every day (he had it yesterday), He is also on weekly replamin plus.

He started this morning with cow pile looking poop, and within an hour he was pouring diarrhea/acting lethargic. 
His temp was 101 F. We separated him from the other goats. He drank a couple sips of electrolytes and when I left was laying down. He has hay and ate a little bit but doesn't want to eat it.

I gave him 10 ml of Pepto Bismol, 6 ml of spectogard scour chek, and some probiotic gel today after the diarrhea started. He has had nothing else today except hay and manna pro goat electrolytes.

Anyone have any advice? Could the food have caused this even though I have been giving it nearly every day for a couple weeks and he has had no issue?

@toth boer goats


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Well. All that iron can be binding copper. So I'd do a copper bolus. If you haven't done rumen boluses, I'd do that. Please update on exactly what you have done and what you are currently doing.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

ksalvagno said:


> Well. All that iron can be binding copper. So I'd do a copper bolus. If you haven't done rumen boluses, I'd do that. Please update on exactly what you have done and what you are currently doing.


I edited my original post. We have rumen boluses but haven't used them on him. His last copper bolus was on August 1st and he last had Replamin Plus on the 22nd.

I gave him 10 ml of Pepto Bismol, 6 ml of spectogard scour chek, and some probiotic gel today after the diarrhea started. He has had nothing else today except hay and manna pro goat electrolytes.

He had the mush, red cell, and b complex shot yesterday evening.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'd do a rumen bolus for a minimum of 3 days in a row. Do 5 days if he seems to need it.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I would get a fecal analysis done and give the Pepto at least twice per day.

2 cups of alfalfa mash is not much for an emaciated goat. I would be increasing that by a half cup daily.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I agree with the above. And the fecal is KEY. If he's anemic, then there is a cause. Parasites of one sort or another are likeliest.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Okay, we are taking a fecal this afternoon. He still has diarrhea today.  I gave him more pepto and scour chek. Do you guys think we should try to get sub-q fluids from the vet to give ourselves? He is drinking a little bit of electrolytes. Is there anything else we should be feeding besides hay while he has diarrhea?

To make things worse it is wet and stormy here. Nothing like a soaking wet goat pen and a diarrhea goat in a tarp hut.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes. Get IV fluids.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All really good advice.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

ksalvagno said:


> Yes. Get IV fluids.


Would we give them sub-q? How much?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You would give it SQ. You would need to ask the vet the amount.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Okay so we got the fecal results back. A few strongyles, no coccidia. We aren't supposed to deworm until the diarrhea stops and he is feeling better.

We didn't get fluids because he drank over a gallon of electrolytes today so figured he is hydrating. We did learn that the vet will sell them to us without seeing the goat, whew.

The diarrhea appears to be getting thicker and his temp was 102 F. Gave the first rumen bolus mixed with water (or most of it, he fought and spit). Also gave a fortified b complex shot.

So we still don't know what caused the diarrhea. I'm assuming it was food. He has not had anything but hay and leaves/plants since it started. Should he be getting anything else? His belly is really sunken in.

He looks TERRIBLE in terms of body score. You can see every rib and bone. It is so frustrating because he eats but still looks like this. I know you guys originally said to get his teeth floated. We definitely hear squeaking whenever he chews, so I think it would be helpful. But when we asked the vet today he said he couldn't do it, his equipment is for horses, so too big.

Anyone have any tips on what we should do to help him food wise? Do you think the "mush" I was giving him could have caused this? Any specific types of hay or anything that you recommend? Just want him to get better. 

@ksalvagno @toth boer goats @goathiker


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

How is he now? Temp? Poo consistency?

The stress from the bad weather change could have caused this. It can be deadlier than we want to think to have drastic changes like this. Or, the weather could have lowered the immune system enough to have caught a bug. My go-to when I have eliminated worms is calf scour pills. This is what one brand looks like.








And another brand


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

mariarose said:


> How is he now? Temp? Poo consistency?
> 
> The stress from the bad weather change could have caused this. It can be deadlier than we want to think to have drastic changes like this. Or, the weather could have lowered the immune system enough to have caught a bug. My go-to when I have eliminated worms is calf scour pills. This is what one brand looks like.
> 
> ...


Didn't check his temp today but the diarrhea has stopped (pellets now). Yes we have had a fast drop in temperature here.

Just gave Pepto this morning, no more scour chek since he was improving.

His issue now is his mouth and the fact that he looks like a skeleton. He has hay but for some reason won't eat a ton of it like he should. You know how goats need to eat 24/7 and should always have a full "swelled up" looking belly? He doesn't have that and he picks at his hay, which is grass hay that is fresh (just cut in the last week). I think something may be wrong with his mouth teeth wise (hear squeaking whenever he chews, but the vet said he can't float teeth).

He acts ravenous but sort of rubs his nose in hay and picks out little bits. Won't chow down like he should.  He loves leaves and weeds but it is getting cold and those are hard to find.

Any tips on what I should try to feed him? Other types of hay? Should I try the mush again? It was supposed to be giving him protein but I was afraid it caused his diarrhea so I stopped it.

@ksalvagno @toth boer goats @goathiker


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did you ever have a vet check his teeth?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Fresh new cut hay is supposed to age a few weeks before feeding. 
New hay is too hot can poison your animals.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

21goaties said:


> Should I try the mush again? It was supposed to be giving him protein but I was afraid it caused his diarrhea so I stopped it.


I honestly think the mush, as you described it, did not cause the diarrhea. Starting it again could be necessary while you find out and fix what is wrong.

I know you said the vet couldn't float a goat's teeth, but I missed where you said he checked them and confirmed they need floated. Perhaps if you had the proper equipment the vet could use it on your goat? (If it is needed)

The jaws and back teeth of goats are scary dangerous. If Dante had known of them, I'm certain they would have featured prominently in one of the levels of his Inferno. That's why I suggested utilizing the vet even if you buy your own equipment. He can sedate the goat and show you what you are doing the first time.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

So find someone else to float his teeth...

Any horse barn or horse owner can tell you who floats teeth.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Any vet who does mini horses will have the right tools.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Okay, I started the mush again, just left out the molasses, beet pulp and BOSS. I am trying to find a different vet. I gave him Replamin Plus, oral b complex gel, rumen bolus, and more electrolytes today. He has hay (not the fresh hay @goathiker) but doesn't like it much. Maybe because it is still pretty warm here.

Question: do they put the goat under when they are operating on the teeth (if they have to)? I know goats are very sensitive to that and I don't want to kill him. What should a vet that knows goats do when floating teeth?

Also, I took some pics of him today. They were taken in the morning so his belly is not very full. It was fuller this evening. You can tell how skinny he is. Here they are:


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

21goaties said:


> Question: do they put the goat under when they are operating on the teeth (if they have to)


I don't think they are put completely under. I've heard of some horses being sedated so that they remain calm.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

They do only what they need to. At his age I doubt they will sedate him. 
Try calling the vet school in your state. They should be able to help.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good advice.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

So the other vet said they have never had to float goat teeth (and they raise goats) and never heard of anyone doing that, but that they could try to sedate him and pull teeth if there was an obvious problem.

Last night when he tried to eat 1 bite of hay he had a hard time and did these weird mouth contortions.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Someone has to go in and look at those teeth.

10 is getting up there for a wether, and it is not surprising there is a problem. I'm glad he is on a mush or slurry, but to keep him out of pain and thriving you need to find out what is up with those teeth.

Maybe they need floated. I'd not be shocked, considering his age. Maybe he has an absess. I'd not be shocked. Maybe the vet has never had a 10 year old goat. I'd not be shocked. I've never had a 10 year old goat either.

Simply put, he's hurting and it has something to do with his mouth. Ya gotta find out what's what or he'll live in misery. Doing nothing is moving in the wrong direction.

I love you. Hugs. Tight Hugs. Even tighter hugs. And now move.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Going to try another vet then. Anyone heard of this one? Apparently they see large animals. 

Jessica Giddens, MADS, (DVM ’14), has opened her own mobile practice, JAG Veterinary Services, which is available to a 10-county area covering South Georgia and North Florida.

I let George back out to pasture even though there's not much left. He was yelling and wanted to be back with the herd. He can eat leaves/weeds/grass, the problem is that once winter sets in there won't be any left.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Have you tried Chaffe hay? It is soft and chopped into smaller prices.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with what has been said.

Something is going on in that mouth.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

The folks who float horse teeth are not necessary veterinarians. That's why I was thinking you could ask a local horse owner/horse barn. 

No anesthesia should be necessary, it's mostly filing down worn teeth to remove any sharp points. If removal is necessary that may need to be a vet, I'm not sure. 

Look for horse farrier ads in your local paper or Craigslist and call them up and ask them for the name & number of someone local who floats horse teeth and would be willing to do a goat.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Okay I got some of this: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-hydration-hay-horse-hay-block-pack-of-6-12-lb to see if he can eat it. Will try tomorrow. One of the reviews said their toothless goat lived off it.

They didn't have Chaffe hay at my TSC @goathiker guess I'll have to check other places

Thanks for the tips @SalteyLove !


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Gave him the hay mush today and he eats it! Time will tell if he will continue to eat it/how much he likes it.


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## omeomy07 (Oct 28, 2017)

chaffhaye has specific dealers. i got mine at an ace hardware, but there was a small feed store about 45 min away that also had it.

http://chaffhaye.com/dealer-locator/


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

According to that locator, 2 stores I regularly go to are dealers, and I've never seen it. I'll have to ask!


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

I just checked that @omeomy07 and the closest one to us is 64 miles away.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

21goaties said:


> I just checked that @omeomy07 and the closest one to us is 64 miles away.


Dealer locators are not always completely accurate. Go to all the feed stores around you and ask. That usually provides results. Go in with proper spelling and a product number. Make it easy for people to get what you want.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

mariarose said:


> Dealer locators are not always completely accurate. Go to all the feed stores around you and ask. That usually provides results. Go in with proper spelling and a product number. Make it easy for people to get what you want.


Went out and he had eaten the whole bucket (2 lbs). Yay! Now I really need to find chaffhaye cause the small blocks are expensive.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

One of the reviews on the hydrating hay block was a negative one because he said that regular hay cubes were cheaper and soaked up more water. Now, I don't know if that is so, but perhaps that would work as a stopgap while you are looking for the Chaffhaye?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Update:

Dewormed him with Prohibit today. Waiting on a call back from a different vet.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good luck.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

The other vet said they don't do goat dental work.

Ugh! Guess I'll have to start calling horse people.


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## omeomy07 (Oct 28, 2017)

goathiker said:


> They do only what they need to. At his age I doubt they will sedate him.
> Try calling the vet school in your state. They should be able to help.


I second this. I don't know how far they are from you but UGA is a great vet school. I just looked at their page and they have a teaching hospital that sees large animals.

https://vet.uga.edu/hospital/lam-services

Sidenote about the Chaffhaye... sorry it's so far away for you. But I think it was Mariarose that said you can try going into feed stores and getting them to order it. I've done that with minerals before.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

:update:

So after calling all the vets near here (we wouldn't be able to take him to a vet hours away), we finally (it was a feat getting him there) took him to one that said they "saw goats all the time". Got there and the guy said he wasn't a goat expert but "looks at goats". 

He looked in George's mouth and said he saw some ulcers on the back of his tongue and gave an antibiotic shot, then gave us another to give. Also said he felt some loose teeth, but said "it's not like they do dental work on goats". He also said he was equivalent to a 25yr old horse. 

Also said we need to feed him perennial peanut hay and figure out food that will put weight on him. 

So far you guys have helped me WAY more than any vet has. 

Anyone have any other ideas for food for him? 

He loves grass, leaves, etc but it is too cold for that. 

He is eating soaked alfalfa/timothy hay cubes right now but never finishes it. He only wants to eat the parts that are still in a cube shape but since they are soaked most of them crumble into mush. Then he doesn't want to eat the mush and does this digging thing throwing mush everywhere looking for more cubes. But if I give him dry cubes they are hard as rocks so he can't eat them.
He gets soaked alfalfa pellets/beet pulp/goat balancer/molasses once a day.


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## omeomy07 (Oct 28, 2017)

i'm going to give this with the caveat that i know next to nothing about goat nutrition... but- acorns? they're fatty and my girls LOVE them. if you can find them in your yard still, maybe you can soak and offer as treats. but, i guess just a little because too much can upset their tummies.

"it's not like they do dental work on goats" .... omg. haha i'm sorry. i feel like horse people look down on goat people sometimes, vets included and it's really frustrating. it's like they think it's dumb to treat goats with the same amount of care.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Sprouts?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

So I had a revelation.

We have two pastures, one with 8 wethers and one with 9 does + 2 wethers

George's herd is the one with 8 wethers. However, I had to take him out and put him in a small pen in order to feed him this stuff, since all the other goats bully him.

However, he of course hates being alone (and is blind).

So my dilemma is this. It is cold and there is hardly anything to eat in the pasture. The herds each have a big round hay bale. However, George is emaciated (and the only goat with no horns) and the wethers in his herd won't let him near the hay. So I had to separate him. But when I separate him, he gets stressed and screams for me instead of eating his alfalfa (he will eat a bit but not enough). When I go out there and stand with him he is fine. But obviously I can't do that 24/7.
I tried putting him with the other herd but he was terrified of them and literally ran and hid behind me. Then when I left he stood at the gate yelling.

So how am I going to get him to gain weight if the herds won't let him eat and he won't eat enough by himself because he's lonely? :ahh:

If he had his way he would stay with the wethers and starve to death.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't know. Would you consider making him a house goat?

I'm just asking "blind" here, because he'd no longer be alive in my herd, I can only guess at what you will and will not consider....

You can not make the other goats be something they aren't; kind, sharing, altruistic, empathic. They just aren't any of those things. So you need to look at your own circumstances and decide, "How far am I willing to go to circumvent nature for this goat." And the answer may be pretty darn far. But the answer may be, not far enough. Both those answers are good answers if they are real and honest.

Making yourself George's "service animal" might be your answer. Nothing wrong with that. Finding George a small pen with a different, gentle, companion and caring for 3 herd spaces might be your answer and there is nothing wrong with that. Saying goodby to him and releasing him to the universe on a last good day might be your answer and there is nothing wrong with that either.

But coming to grips with the fact you can not MAKE your other goats treat him differently than they are, or that someone ELSE'S goats won't magically will be "nicer", that's inescapable. Goats are goats, and can be incredible A-holes to one another. Fact.

We can suggest feeds, we can't know your living arrangements or available service animals. But we are here for you.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

So, I'm trying a different plan.

I tried putting another one of the wethers in with him, but that didn't work. He still yelled for me.

My new plan is to leave him with the herd during the day and put him in the small pen at night. During that time he will get his alfalfa pellet mush, hay mush, and tomorrow we are trying to get some perennial peanut hay for him.

During the day he will have the goats round bale and whatever they can find in their pasture/woods. I am giving up keeping him in the small pen 24/7, he was making himself sicker yelling constantly.

We did the second de-worming of Prohibit on him today, and gave the second shot of Excede for the mouth ulcers. Also treated with UltraBoss.

He is also on Replamin Plus.

What do you guys think about the grain supplement he is currently getting in terms of nutrition/weight gain? Should I be feeding a feed made for goats or is this good? Is it enough? He is a full size Nubian/Alpine mix, but since he is currently underweight he is smaller obviously.

Here is what he is getting daily:

2.5 cups of alfalfa pellets
1/2 cup of beet pulp
2 oz of Manna Pro Goat Balancer Supplement
Drizzle of molasses
All soaked in water

Also getting soaked alfalfa/timothy hay cubes at night. He eats those but not with as much gusto as the other stuff above.

And advice/criticism is welcome!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Maybe he would like something we usually don't give goats, bread, rolls, cornbread.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

When i had one i wanted put a bit of weight on i was told here to give a bit of calf manna. It is a pellet so it would probably need be soaked for him. But for my lady it worked great. And was added in with her grain.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm experimenting with sprouting whole grain and seeing some fantastic results with a hard keeper of mine.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Wow, I'm sorry you're going through this. Have you considered multiple small feedings of the cubes throughout the day maybe, instead of feeding him twice a day splitting the ration into 3 or 4 feedings while his mouth heals? If he likes the cubes semi-firm this would make sure he was getting enough without them getting too mushy.
Sometimes it's difficult to gauge what's enough with any animal but since he's so thin it couldn't hurt.
I hope he gets to feeling better.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

If he eats the soaked alfalfa pellets well, I would offer those free choice (as much as he wants/will eat when he is penned over night). Honestly, he could get like 2-4 pounds of alfalfa pellets per day for a full size goat. 2.5 cups isn't nearly enough to sustain him if he isn't eating the timothy/alf cubes well. If he nibbles some browse and hay when he is out with the wethers during the day then offering him free choice soaked alfalfa pellet mixture over night will be totally fine. 

Keep up the hard work. I wonder if the ulcers are caused by the loose teeth...


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Update:

I have been following @SalteyLove's advice and giving free choice soaked alfalfa/the mixture I listed above.

Also been providing soaked hay cubes daily and perennial peanut hay 24/7.

He is STILL only eating enough to survive. He looks TERRIBLE, (see my previous pictures of him), it is embarrassing. However, he is still peeing/pooping/ruminating normally. It is super weird, he looks like he would be about to die. 
I have been having to add molasses, honey, or sweet feed to his food most days to try and encourage him to eat more (I know, that isn't good).

The browse is pretty much gone. If it is not raining I am still letting him out though cause he gets lonely.

I am also worried about him getting cold since he has no meat on his bones whatsoever. His ears were cold last night. Is that normal?

My next idea is sprouted barley (per @mariarose suggestion) and an actual goat feed to try to put weight on him.

Here are some of my ideas, what do you guys think? Even though he has never had ammonium chloride in his life (he has had a rough life), I would prefer that the feed have it in it. However, I am probably totally messing up the ratios with all the alfalfa, etc. I am just desperate because he looks so bad. Just please eat and gain weight, goat! :ahh: And our goats are not exactly in the best condition to begin with, and he looks bad compared to them.

Do you guys think that the medicated feed would hurt him?

What about these feeds?

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...wer-16-medicated-goat-feed-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005

https://www.purinamills.com/goat-feed/products/detail/purina-dairy-goat-parlor-16

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/purina-hsc-goat-commotion-dx-packagesizeatlas?cm_vc=-10005

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/natures-best-organic-goat-pellets?cm_vc=-10005

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dumor-goat-feed-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Oh, Hugs. I still recommend sprouts.

For a goat who may or may not eat, I'll never even think about a medicated feed. If you can't guarantee that he'll eat the full amount of medication, you are growing stronger coccidia.

You will of course do as you think best, but I have to say no to the medicated, it compromises your whole farm.

I don't like Dumor for, well, anything. It is one of TSC's 2 store brands, and it is made for people who want to spend the least money possible. I used to work for TSC and we got training about how to spin the problems for Dumor, and if people seemed doubtful, to subtly guide them toward Producer's Pride, their "upscale" store brand.

The other 2 you brought up, I don't have much to offer. They look fine to me. Another one you might like is https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...tocker-grower-supreme-cattle-feed-50-lb?rfk=1 It also comes in textured, which smells better to me, but I generally just prefer textured anyway... No AC, but you should be able to sprinkle it on his share daily.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

If his primary consumption is alfalfa right now, I wouldn't worry about a daily ration feed having ammonium chloride or not. Have you tried eliminating the beet pulp from his soaked alfalfa to see if he likes it better that way? Or less water?

I recommend the pelleted Purina Cattle Stocker Grower (light blue bag). If you can get him eating grain, then increase him slowly and think about adding AC later if he is really consuming it. 
A treat of a couple slices of a hearty oat bread a day or something?

Blanketing can lead to horrendous lice issues but it sounds like he needs it. I would try to find a dog jacket that will fit him. Dehydration can also really make them cold - perhaps offer two types of water? One plain and one with gatorade or something mixed in?

I can't help but think he just doesn't feel well or is in pain in some way as his appetite has not come back. I might consider a daily anti-inflammatory of some sort. I just jumped on the trendy bandwagon and purchased Hemp Oil for my arthritic dogs. We'll see if it works. They have been on an anti-inflammatory for so long and I know it's not good for their organs but their quality of life is far improved with medication.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh one more thing - any chance you have evergreen trees of some sort and you can cut a few branches each day with a step ladder somewhere on your property? Or buy him a christmas tree for his night time stall!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@SalteyLove My goats want to go live with you.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

mariarose said:


> @SalteyLove My goats want to go live with you.


Hahaha no no! I swear mine are livestock through and through. I fully recognize the difference in time, effort, and care for pets (especially senior pets!) and livestock.

But I do admit to trimming much forage for any time some of my goats are penned. And for making many rounds of leftover christmas tree pickups for them. Okay fine, and they do get flavored tubs of water on the coldest days.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

mariarose said:


> If you can't guarantee that he'll eat the full amount of medication, you are growing stronger coccidia.


Thanks! I never knew that.



SalteyLove said:


> Have you tried eliminating the beet pulp from his soaked alfalfa to see if he likes it better that way? Or less water?


Yes, I have. I give him the beet pulp/goat balancer/alfalfa mix 1x a day. I also give straight alfalfa pellets. I tried the pellets dry and he doesn't like them that way. If they are too wet (powdery) he won't eat them unless he is STARVING like last night when it was 30 degrees. So I am always making fresh hoping he will eat all of it this time. The other goats gladly eat his leftovers so none is wasted thankfully.



SalteyLove said:


> I recommend the pelleted Purina Cattle Stocker Grower (light blue bag). If you can get him eating grain, then increase him slowly and think about adding AC later if he is really consuming it.
> A treat of a couple slices of a hearty oat bread a day or something?


Just curious, why do you recommend that and not a feed specifically for goats?



SalteyLove said:


> Blanketing can lead to horrendous lice issues but it sounds like he needs it. I would try to find a dog jacket that will fit him. Dehydration can also really make them cold - perhaps offer two types of water? One plain and one with gatorade or something mixed in?


I have been trying to find a coat but they have all been too expensive so far. I will keep looking. I actually have offered 2 types of water...last night I brought a warm bucket of bounce back out to him which of course he wouldn't drink while I was out there. But he is quite hydrated, I see him drinking water and all the soaked food as well, makes him pee a lot.



SalteyLove said:


> I can't help but think he just doesn't feel well or is in pain in some way as his appetite has not come back. I might consider a daily anti-inflammatory of some sort.


Sorry I made it sound like he doesn't have an appetite. He does, but he just won't eat heartily anything but forage. And the forage is 99% gone. He takes a few bites of perennial peanut hay (which we got specifically for him) a day but won't eat grass hay. He eats a bit of soaked hay cubes but won't finish the bucket. Then he goes crazy for tiny pieces of grass. The only thing he eats sort of consistently is alfalfa pellets mush.



SalteyLove said:


> Oh one more thing - any chance you have evergreen trees of some sort and you can cut a few branches each day with a step ladder somewhere on your property? Or buy him a christmas tree for his night time stall!


We have some cypress and one fir tree on the property. I have gotten branches from the fir before for sick goats. I'll have to go back in the woods and check and make sure it didn't get knocked down in the storm we had. I did cut him some oak this morning, which he ate some of. Also blackberry bush but he didn't want that.

Unfortunately we don't have a stall--just a small cow corral with a little tarp covered hoop shelter in it. So at night he goes in that and lays on hay. The problem is while you can clean out the shelter, it is super hard to clean out the pen, which is full of


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

21goaties said:


> Just curious, why do you recommend that and not a feed specifically for goats?


Well, I can't speak for Saltey, but for myself, because it is a good natural feed, period. Sometimes people get trapped into thinking, "specialized this, specialized that..." and they end up paying a lot of money for specialized that isn't that awesome. Purina Goat Mineral? Not great. Manna Pro Goat mineral? I hate the harm it has done. Purina CATTLE Wind and Rain, Storm? It's a terrific goat mineral.

Frankly, I wish every goat owner here who uses W&R,S would write to Purina and tell them, "I won't use your Goat Mineral because it is Substandard to your Cattle Minerals for my goats." Then Purina would have a clue what to offer their goat customers and they could make more money. How can they know if we won't stand up and tell them? The cattle industry is telling them what THEY need, believe me.

I tell people, ALL the time, write to the manufacturer. Let them know what they are doing right, what you want different. They don't know if we don't tell them.

You think that the CATTLE industry want a viable goat competition going on???? No, they really don't. And if we think we are a drop in the bucket to the economic power that cattle are... let me gently disabuse you.

What we are is a side show, disregarded by some, exploited by others. And we'll stay that way until we start talking to our government and our manufacturer. I know, one more thing on my overflowing "To Do" list...

In the mean time, you can't trust the "Goat..." on the bag, you have to learn to pick and choose.

My :2c:


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

21goaties said:


> a little tarp covered hoop shelter


That sounds like my shelters (I have several small tarp covered hoop shelters in my pens)


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

re: the purina cattle pelleted feed 

I recommend it because I use it with good results and I recommend it because of price, ease of acquisition, consistency bag to bag, and goats LIKE it. I don't use sweet/textured feeds in my barn because I hate the molasses residue all over everything and how difficult it is to scoop in cold weather and how many flies are attracted in summer.

In my little tiny opinion, if you aren't going to feed a super premium feed made of whole grains or mix your own whole grains then the Stocker Grower will do just fine. Yes it has by-products.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You are right, Saltey.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

What do you guys think of this feed (while we're at looking at non goat-specific feeds )

https://www.chewy.com/tribute-equine-nutrition-essential-k/dp/170366


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I think that it is too expensive, but if it makes you happy, I'm with you.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...QerFVbFH5675p7R9bfPzvjYG2JGvf3E4aAvkzEALw_wcB

Have you tried this? Actually works well for goats and Goathiker has suggested it before.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

ksalvagno said:


> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...QerFVbFH5675p7R9bfPzvjYG2JGvf3E4aAvkzEALw_wcB
> 
> Have you tried this? Actually works well for goats and Goathiker has suggested it before.


Wow, I like that quite a bit! Mixed with alfalfa pellets to balance up the calcium.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

He got the 3rd deworming with Prohibit yesterday + thiamine shot.

Going to get those 2 feeds and try to find barley to sprout. The only hay he will eat is perennial peanut hay and soaked hay cubes.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Doesn't have to be barley. Any whole grain that will sprout. Oats are about perfect. Untreated alfalfa seeds, BOSS, etc, also work. Sprouts are good food.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

OK. I got the stocker grower and the mini horse feed. How should I introduce it/how much? It's time to feed George. He has a bit of alfalfa left. Note that he is 150 lbs, used to be around 200 in his younger days.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Are you eliminating the alfalfa entirely?

I'd take a week to move from where you are, to where you want to be. I'm not sure what you are picturing as your end game in feeding him, But think about that and think about taking a week or two to get there. Does that make sense?

Is there a reason for you going to BOTH the stocker grower (Purina???) and the mini horse feed? What do you expect from each of these feeds? What form of alfalfa, if any, do you plan to keep?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Well, I don't really know. Since our goats have been mainly pets and I just learned this year about how to properly care for them I have never fed them a grain mix where I thought about the amounts and ingredients.

Yes, I don't see why not so I'll continue to include alfalfa pellets like @SalteyLove suggested.

I was thinking you guys might have suggestions of how much of each feed to feed, how much alfalfa, etc based on what I have told ya'll about George. Since I have no clue. :bonk: Currently I am feeding him a mixture (detailed in my previous posts) that is based on the amounts ya'll have suggested.

Yes I got the Purina Stocker Grower. My goal is for George to gain weight.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

OK, I would focus on the soaked alfalfa and introducing one of your new feeds this week. Getting that established first. Next week, keep this mixture and start adding in the second new concentrate feed. I don't think it matters a great deal which you choose to start with. 

If you want to start giving him sprouted oats or barley or???? then toward the end of this week or next week, start sprouting and give him a bit at each feeding (once they are sprouted) because just trying to give a lot of sprouts at once can lead to tummy upsets, and it does take a few days for the grains to sprout. 

By the end of 3 weeks, he should be fairly well established on the new feeds. 

Sprouts are very nutritious and so much softer than most pelleted feeds that when he gets the idea to eat them and not toss them out of the feed pan in disgust, you are going to be pleased, I think, with the bloom in health. I've been shocked by some of my results here..


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Thanks! What amounts would you recommend?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

For right now, I'd keep the total volume the same. Keep most of it what he is used to and only introducing the new.

You aren't just shifting food, you are shifting TYPES of food, so try to keep that part (total amount) kind of the same.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Towards the end of the week, if he is tolerating the changes well, you can start increasing the amounts, total. Does that make sense?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Yes. I usually give him the mix with goat balancer/beet pulp/alfalfa pellets 1x a day and straight alfalfa the rest of the time. 
However I can probably start weaning out the beet pulp/goat balancer once I start the feeds, right? Since they have similar ingredients.

I am going to try to sprout BOSS, since those are the only seeds I have.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I've never used the goat balancer, ever. I just can't address that as I don't even have 'book larnin' about it. If he is used to the beet pulp, I would not completely get rid of it, because it is a roughage product, not a concentrate product and you want to keep that steady if you can as you increase your concentrates. Keep it in the same proportions with the alfalfa if you can.

People who know more than I, can certainly over-ride me on any of this. I'm telling you what I would do given my level of knowledge and experience. But I've never tried so hard as you are, to keep an elderly goat alive. You are dealing with a lot of ignorance in me. George would have met a peaceful end long ago on my farm because of my economic constrictions. Please don't judge this harshly, I can't have pets.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I like to start small like half a cup of new stuff.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Ok. I gave him his usual food yesterday and this morning except I put a little less alfalfa pellets and added 1/2 cup of the mini horse feed.

I have a question about ratios.
He is getting around 12 cups of alfalfa pellets (around 6 lbs) per day. Sometimes he won't eat all of it but most of it. He is also getting 1 cup of beet pulp and the recommended amount of goat balancer (2oz). Also getting 6 Senior snax horse treats almost daily. Now I am decreasing the alfalfa pellets by 1.5 cups and adding 1/2 cup of the new feed.
He is also getting perennial peanut hay and soaked alfalfa/timothy or alfalfa/bermuda hay cubes whenever I think he needs them.

Do ya'll think those amounts are good? How much of the food should I slowly replace with this new feed?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Goathiker would be better to answer this but I probably wouldn't do more than 3 cups twice a day on the pony feed.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

If he eats the whole 12 cups of soaked alfalfa pellets I wouldn't mess with that. You just want him to gain weight so there isn't a reason really to decrease. I would slowly increase the new grain up to 1 pound a day over 2-3 weeks.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Thanks guys!! @goathiker

Another quick question.....George is having some whitish drainage from one of his eyes. Remember he is blind (for unknown reasons) and has bulging eyes (pinkeye scarring from when he was young). It has been wet and cold here. Is this cause for concern?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

21goaties said:


> Is this cause for concern?


Definitely maybe.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Had another question about George...we were attempting to trim his hooves again yesterday (the first time months ago was a disaster and he almost killed himself struggling). Looking at them I'm pretty sure he has super bad ankles/hooves due to past neglect, but I wanted to get ya'll's opinion. Here is a shot of one of his front hooves. Should the hoof be that thick? Also one of his front hooves was a bit "squishy" in one spot so we put some hoof n' heel on it. It has been really wet here and George lives in a pen with a dirt floor (sorry about all the dirt/manure on his hoof)


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It can be thick. Not sure if this is before or after trimming but it looks like you could trim more nail. But it doesn't look bad.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

You would probably need to rinse the off to get a good view.
My opinion is not up to par with the others on here, but of course I have one lol.
His front hooves look good to me, from what I can tell. It is his pasterns that are weak. Again, don't go by my say so. Best of luck


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Trim some toe.
I would also trim some inside wall too.


















The pasterns wont come back if it has been that way for too long. Does he get loose salt and minerals?

If you just trimmed however, you will need to wait 2 weeks or more to trim again, unless you didn't see pink, you can trim just a little bit more. Always trim very little at a time. So you don't cut too deep.

If the ground is wet, and he is in it a lot, the hooves will be very soft.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Thanks for the tips. 
He does get loose minerals (and he is on Replamin Plus). However that only started this year. Until shortly after I joined the forum he had a mineral block so I think he has permanent damage from all those years of improper minerals.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Based on that photo, I also think you can trim more toe off to get his pasterns more upright. Both the walls and the frog look like they can sustain more trimming. I'm not sure if you were asking about the thickness of his hoof walls or the overall depth of his hooves, but definitely older goats get much thicker and tougher hooves.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

How is that eye drainage you last spoke of, @21goaties?

Is there any chance you can get your hands on an injection of Bo-Se from a vet?

If you could, and it made a dramatic difference, the trimming may look like a different proposition to you. I am saying you may trim differently if you saw what part of the problem is selenium, and what part of the problem is trimming. Hope that made sense...

I have a Boer girl limping, I have to get her on the stand and do some work on her.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

mariarose said:


> How is that eye drainage you last spoke of, @21goaties?
> 
> Is there any chance you can get your hands on an injection of Bo-Se from a vet?
> 
> ...


The eye drainage is exactly the same. It is a small line of cloudy slime near his eye. I have left it alone hoping that we could get some for the PCR testing which we have not heard back about yet.

We can ask about the Bo-Se. Will the Replamin Plus not do the same thing? We also have selenium gel. And the food he is eating right now has a ton of extra vitamins in it.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

21goaties said:


> We can ask about the Bo-Se. Will the Replamin Plus not do the same thing?


No, It won't do the same thing. A rice dish with a lot of garlic would have an antibiotic effect on your body, because garlic is a good natural antibiotic, right. But you would not rely on that same rice dish if you had a serious infection, you'd go to the Dr and get an injection or a prescription of pure antibiotic. Right?

In the same way, if you were in need of nourishment, you wouldn't go to the Dr for that injection or prescription, you'd make a rice dish...

One approach is meant to deal with supporting health and nutrition, and the other approach is meant to deal with a serious problem, a problem that at one time could have been prevented with nutrition, but now needs serious medicine.

The gels, will take a lot longer to address this single issue, and you don't want to wait that long to figure out the hoof trimming part of the problem. The Bo-Se, if you can get it, can tell you almost immediately, what part of this is a trimming issue. The gels will allow you to keep putting off the trimming, because it might be the selenium after all.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Here's an update on George:

He has gained weight!! He has been eating (all soaked) free choice alfalfa pellets, 1 cup beet pulp daily, a little under 2 cups of the pony feed daily, and goat balancer daily. Also some BOSS here and there. Also free choice perennial peanut hay and minerals. Everything else I did is in my previous posts. He has had to live in a separate pen for this to happen and for the other goats to not steal his food. He can still see (if he can still see) the other goats and shares a fence with a calf, but he thinks I am his goat companion. (He never had a friend with the herd since his brother died).

Here's some before and after pictures. It is more obvious in person, when you put your hand over his back you can feel some flesh over his spine/ribs now, and his coat is thicker and shinier. I think it's a great improvement considering how old he is. His side is sunken in but that is probably because it is winter and he's not a big grass hay eater (which is why we had to get him peanut hay ) . Another change I have seen in him is that now he frolics like a kid sometimes. Running around his little pen jumping and doing the head shake/twist kids do. Also accidentally hitting things (probably because he can't see well). He is so big it is funny. We also got a fecal done on him recently and it was clean. I was worried about coccidia with him being in a small pen. I have to clean it constantly.

Before (October 2018):
















After (January 2019):


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I can see the improvement. Great job!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Oh my, he does look better! Good job!


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

Doing well I see.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Even I can see the difference! Good going.


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## dnchck (Mar 24, 2014)

Followed this thread! He looks so much better. I applaud for for all your hard work trying to get him healthy! Great advice from everyone that helped you along the way! Stay strong George!:goodjob:


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 3, 2018)

Just read your thread, he is looking so much better! Good job! :goodjob:

While it looks like you have a handle on it, I thought I'd mention Dyne- It's a liquid supplement that can help goats gain weight. We had to use it on a few does who had gotten very ill off bad hay (hay looked fine, but something was on it and made some of the goats very ill!). It really helped some of our girls. I don't think your guy will need it, but thought I'd mention it anyway.  
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail...n1FCh2rqJsuzWzyHesJbz8qRVZ7d-NuxoCS0AQAvD_BwE


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

How wonderful that he feels well enough to play!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

He does look better, good work.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Wanted to give ya'll a George update! Here is his "before" picture (April 2018):









And his "after" pics! He looks even better since I last posted! 


















Here he is channeling his inner easter bunny










































And yes, I know he looks like an alien but he is super sweet despite his appearance. Also I don't think he can see at all so that's why he's staring in weird directions. 
I do have a question though, how should I wean him off his mush so he can go back to pasture with the other goats? Is it okay to take him off it with no slow transition? Should I still feed him grain but not the alfalfa/beet pulp?

Thanks again everyone for helping me!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Can you let him out with the others and still give him his mush at night? My impression is that he'll need special support for the rest of his life... If I'm wrong, please correct me (after you forgive my presumption, I mean well)


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Wow I am SO happy to see this update! Fantastic work


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Great bringing George back up! He looks really nice!


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

mariarose said:


> Can you let him out with the others and still give him his mush at night? My impression is that he'll need special support for the rest of his life... If I'm wrong, please correct me (after you forgive my presumption, I mean well)


Well, he can eat grass and forage so I was thinking that he would be able to graze with the other goats during the summer. But yes, during the colder months he will need mush. I was thinking it might work to have him just eat the daily 2 cups of grain and couple ounces of goat balancer (which has ammonium chloride) during the summer? And not the alfalfa/beet pulp?

@toth boer goats @goathiker @ksalvagno


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I think you could try it and see and if there's a problem, go back to what you know works for him?

I've used the Manna Pro Mineral mix, never the Balancer. I can tell you nothing about the Balancer except it is not a substitute for a loose mineral mix.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

mariarose said:


> I think you could try it and see and if there's a problem, go back to what you know works for him?
> 
> I've used the Manna Pro Mineral mix, never the Balancer. I can tell you nothing about the Balancer except it is not a substitute for a loose mineral mix.


The loose mineral contains ammonium chloride as well. I know nothing of the goat balancer. But I do know that both balancer and grain, together, are a lot on the urinary tract. I would go for less processed foods, myself -- such as simply alfalfa and beet pulp -- avoiding grain at all costs. Or shall I say, avoiding corn is more like it (a main ingredient in both balancer and grain).


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

He looks fantastic! Great job bringing him back!


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> The loose mineral contains ammonium chloride as well. I know nothing of the goat balancer. But I do know that both balancer and grain, together, are a lot on the urinary tract. I would go for less processed foods, myself -- such as simply alfalfa and beet pulp -- avoiding grain at all costs. Or shall I say, avoiding corn is more like it (a main ingredient in both balancer and grain).


I really think the grain is what helped him gain the weight back. He prefers it over the alfalfa/beet pulp even though they are necessary too. Maybe I could get some straight ammonium chloride and sprinkle it on the grain? And stop the goat balancer? He has purina wind and rain minerals. Also the goat balancer is similar to calf manna--for gaining weight.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

21goaties said:


> I really think the grain is what helped him gain the weight back. He prefers it over the alfalfa/beet pulp even though they are necessary too. Maybe I could get some straight ammonium chloride and sprinkle it on the grain? And stop the goat balancer? He has purina wind and rain minerals. Also the goat balancer is similar to calf manna--for gaining weight.


If the Purina has no AC, add it. @mariarose has the proportion of AC to minerals. I would consider switching to a more wether safe grain - something like H&H feeds which is corn free. I wouldn't give the balancer if you are giving grain, it's as simple as that.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Or you could add the AC directly to the mineral mix (W&R,S) That is a 50 lb bag, so 3 lbs AC mixed with that bag...

You've done such an amazing job, and I hope you know we aren't second guessing you in your ultimate choices. Just trying to answer you.

If you want to give the grain, I'd get rid of the balancer. But I'd get rid of it anyway, so...

Is he arthritic at all? @Suzanne_Tyler recommends 1 teaspoon of borax over the course of week to provide the necessary boron. Is that something you'd consider adding to the regimen?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> If the Purina has no AC, add it. @mariarose has the proportion of AC to minerals. I would consider switching to a more wether safe grain - something like H&H feeds which is corn free. I wouldn't give the balancer if you are giving grain, it's as simple as that.


What is H&H feeds?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

mariarose said:


> Or you could add the AC directly to the mineral mix (W&R,S) That is a 50 lb bag, so 3 lbs AC mixed with that bag...
> 
> You've done such an amazing job, and I hope you know we aren't second guessing you in your ultimate choices. Just trying to answer you.
> 
> ...


Okay. He does have some trouble walking. I'll look into the borax. With the AC, is there a certain way that you mix it into the entire bag? Just shake it up? Stir it?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

21goaties said:


> What is H&H feeds?


Just a goat feed brand that is non gmo, corn free, soy free, organic. Great great food. Can be purchased easily on amazon.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

21goaties said:


> Okay. He does have some trouble walking. I'll look into the borax. With the AC, is there a certain way that you mix it into the entire bag? Just shake it up? Stir it?


Lol I would think you get a large scoop and just turn it until well mixed.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

21goaties said:


> Okay. He does have some trouble walking. I'll look into the borax. With the AC, is there a certain way that you mix it into the entire bag? Just shake it up? Stir it?


I trust and value the opinions of @mariarose, but I would personally choose herbs for arthritis or trouble walking. I have a go-to mix, when I get inside (currently feeding the goats) I will get you the link.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Boron is just another mineral, like calcium or copper or zinc, but it isn't included in most mineral mixes, even though there is a clear scientifically established connection between skeletal and and joint health... and boron. Borax is the easiest place for most of us to get boron. That's all.

I don't have an amount to mix with a bag of mineral mix. I truly wish I did. If I had that amount, my goats would be in better shape than they are in, because I can not give daily attention.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Don't try to fix what isn't broken. 
He's healthy and happy just keep doing the things that got him there. 

At age 11 the chance of him developing stones is nil pretty much. 
Ammonium chloride is NOT intended for daily use in healthy animals anyway.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Herbs for arthritis -- http://www.fiascofarm.com/herbs/mollysherbals.php/products/arthritis-and-joint-support


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Herbs for arthritis -- http://www.fiascofarm.com/herbs/mollysherbals.php/products/arthritis-and-joint-support


I should mention this is an overall supplement -- it is not strictly herbal.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Don't try to fix what isn't broken.
> He's healthy and happy just keep doing the things that got him there.
> 
> At age 11 the chance of him developing stones is nil pretty much.
> Ammonium chloride is NOT intended for daily use in healthy animals anyway.


^ Yay Goathiker! That is almost exactly what I was going to say.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

@SalteyLove I had a question about the purina cattle stocker grower, since you said you feed it. What is it supposed to smell like? We never used the bag we bought months ago (we were using the mini horse feed) and when I opened the stocker grower recently it smelled moldy and felt kind of warm. That's not typical right? Or is it?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm not SalteyLove, but I use that, and what you describe is NOT RIGHT. I think you have mold/fermentation going on now because the feed is old and been warm. (Upper 90s-Lower 100s here and wet. I assume you haven't been cold)

Please think REALLY HARD about not feeding that.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

mariarose said:


> I'm not SalteyLove, but I use that, and what you describe is NOT RIGHT. I think you have mold/fermentation going on now because the feed is old and been warm. (Upper 90s-Lower 100s here and wet. I assume you haven't been cold)
> 
> Please think REALLY HARD about not feeding that.


We were keeping it inside but I didn't like how it smelled. I threw it out.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I think you made the right decision, personally. Very wise.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I agree, glad you threw it away. The bags are zero water resistant despite their plastic feel, even the smallest spray of water gets through I've found. I lost a few bags when some water splashed under the cap of my truck and I didn't unload them several days. Perhaps it got wet before you bought it


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

So I have another question about George. We need him to go back to living/eating in the pasture with the other boys for the majority of the time. Recently he stopped eating as much soaked alfalfa/beet pulp, now he will only eat 1/4 of what he was eating (and not even finish that). I have no idea what caused this, maybe he eats less in the heat? I reduced his grain by a half a cup so now he gets 1.5 cups a day. He is still in good body condition (has some fat on him). 

My question is, is it ok for him to have only his grain every day (no alfalfa/beet pulp)? When he is in the small pen he nibbles at the mush all day and doesn't finish it. That wouldn't work out at pasture because he will be with other goats grazing. However he gulps down his grain super fast. So it would work to just take him out of the pasture to eat that once a day. And no, you can't just give him a little straight alfalfa pellets, he takes ages to chew one pellet and usually ends up spitting it out in the time that one of the other goats could have eaten 2 cups of pellets. 

What do ya'll think?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Ugh, I understand why for management purposes but for avoiding urinary calculi I don't think that's a good idea. Both the alfalfa and beet pulp provide calcium to balance phosphorus heavy grains. 

If you soak both the grain and alfalfa pellets together will he eat that quickly?

There must be a reasonable solution!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Can you pop up a little stall of wood pallets inside the boys shelter and stall him at night with his special feed?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

21goaties said:


> Okay, I started the mush again, just left out the molasses, beet pulp and BOSS. I am trying to find a different vet. I gave him Replamin Plus, oral b complex gel, rumen bolus, and more electrolytes today. He has hay (not the fresh hay @goathiker) but doesn't like it much. Maybe because it is still pretty warm here.
> 
> Question: do they put the goat under when they are operating on the teeth (if they have to)? I know goats are very sensitive to that and I don't want to kill him. What should a vet that knows goats do when floating teeth?
> 
> ...


So, what was wrong with George and how's he doing now?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> So, what was wrong with George and how's he doing now?


If you read the whole thread from the start it explains it. He is doing a lot better, gained weight and is now almost overweight lol. There are "after" pics of him on this thread in previous posts.

He did start eating again, just realized I never updated.

His only issues now are his eyes and hooves that need more trimming.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

21goaties said:


> If you read the whole thread from the start it explains it. He is doing a lot better, gained weight and is now almost overweight lol. There are "after" pics of him on this thread in previous posts.
> 
> He did start eating again, just realized I never updated.
> 
> His only issues now are his eyes and hooves that need more trimming.


Long thread to read, don't have a lot of time  did he have liver fluke?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Long thread to read, don't have a lot of time  did he have liver fluke?


We treated him for it (this was like last September) since he had a clean standard fecal, but was anemic. He never got tested for it then but the recent fecal we had done showed no liver fluke, just lungworm.

This all started a few months after I joined the forum and was still figuring everything out. He had been going downhill I assume due to his age and possibly missing teeth being out in the pasture. Once we got him started on alfalfa, beet pulp and grain he gained weight and got shiny again. We also did a lot of other stuff (rumen bolus, replamin, b complex shots, red cell, etc).


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

So I noticed recently that George is snotty. Part of it is that when he sticks his head in the soaked alfalfa he accidentally snorts the wet powder up his nose. But part of it is that he has actual snot (clearish white) in his nose. It sounds like someone is holding his nose when he breathes. No coughing. 

Advice?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

21goaties said:


> So I noticed recently that George is snotty. Part of it is that when he sticks his head in the soaked alfalfa he accidentally snorts the wet powder up his nose. But part of it is that he has actual snot (clearish white) in his nose. It sounds like someone is holding his nose when he breathes. No coughing.
> 
> Advice?


I'd give 3 cloves of garlic daily for 3 days, and then 2 cloves of garlic for the next 5 days after that. Raw and crushed.

Take his rectal temperature ASAP please.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'd also start with garlic and vitamin C at first. I sure don't want to rush into antibiotics now that you have his digestion running well... I'd give him some Replamin also, were he mine.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

So I got some garlic bulbs and tried giving him a clove today.
I chopped up the clove into tiny chunks with a knife, mixed it with applesauce, pounded up some goat treats with a hammer, sprinkled it on top and presented it to him. He nibbled at it but maybe ate one bit of garlic.  I tried putting his grain which he loves on it...still nothing.

I gave it to the other goats who inhaled most of it before they realized what it was and quickly stopped.

Is there a certain way @NigerianDwarfOwner707 that you "crush" the garlic?

I know there are more things I can try. (molasses, mashed banana, etc). But not sure how I could make it where he won't sniff it out.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

21goaties said:


> So I got some garlic bulbs and tried giving him a clove today.
> I chopped up the clove into tiny chunks with a knife, mixed it with applesauce, pounded up some goat treats with a hammer, sprinkled it on top and presented it to him. He nibbled at it but maybe ate one bit of garlic.  I tried putting his grain which he loves on it...still nothing.
> 
> I gave it to the other goats who inhaled most of it before they realized what it was and quickly stopped.
> ...


You may have to start with a little bit at a time. They usually love the dry peeling from garlic, try that. Work your way up from there.

To crush garlic, turn knive flat side down onto clove, and push down hard with heel of other hand.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

21goaties said:


> So I got some garlic bulbs and tried giving him a clove today.
> I chopped up the clove into tiny chunks with a knife, mixed it with applesauce, pounded up some goat treats with a hammer, sprinkled it on top and presented it to him. He nibbled at it but maybe ate one bit of garlic.  I tried putting his grain which he loves on it...still nothing.
> 
> I gave it to the other goats who inhaled most of it before they realized what it was and quickly stopped.
> ...


You just gotta keep trying until you find what's right.

What is usually most important is slippery elm powder, as it masks the smell of the garlic and goats LOVE it.

I crush the garlic in a garlic press, any store with kitchen tools should have one.

I would try all of these things plain first, without garlic. So get a little bit of mashed banana and see if he likes it. If he does, add the garlic and try again.

What's really important is the size of the serving. A teaspoon or two of the carrier is usually all that's needed. If you use too much, it's more that the goat has to eat to actually get to the garlic. In my case, my goats may not like something but in the one lick they give it to test, they get all of it because it's a small dosage.

Try banana, try pumpkin, try peanut butter, and please get some slippery elm!!


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