# Judge my goaties please!



## nchen7

So I've been wanting to do his for a while, but haven't had a chance to get some good pictures of my goats. 

Please keep in mind these guys aren't for showing. I just am curious on how good/bad their overall structure is from a judge's eye.

I have no clue what mix of breed they are - the lady we got them from gets full breed bucks whatever she can get either on island or brings them in from I don't know where. So if you want to take a stab at their breed mix, be my guest!!

1. Missy - she's just over a year old. Hoping to breed her later in the year so comments on what I should look for in a boyfriend would be great too. Thinking of breeding her to the bucking.

2. Buttercup - FF, freshened Apr 19. That's her udder at 12 hour fill. She gives just over a quart a day.

3. Buddy - just over 8 week old buckling.


Thank you!!!


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## enchantedgoats

of the three i like the white one. they appear to be alpine mixes, possibly with nigerian. the two white ones may need some extra groceries. the black one seems to have a decent front end but her rump is really sloping. her udder is well attached in the rear. if you can get a good nigerian mini alpine buck thats what i would use . i know your gene pool is limited due to your location, so look around and find the best that's available. if you can find one that walks uphill, you will be on the right track


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## Texaslass

Okay, wild guesses here: I think the yearling looks mostly Togg, but maybe mixed with Nubian? because of her ears, though that could just be the angle. Maybe Alpine as well.
Buttercup to me looks like an Alpine/Nubian with maybe a little Togg.
And the buckling looks very Saanen to me- maybe his dad was a purebred? Since you said the laky uses purebred bucks when she can. 
These are just guesses; I'm interested to see what others think.
They're all cute- i like Buttercup the best.


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## nchen7

thanks enchantedgoats. Nigerian? i don't think there are any Nigerians on the island....

question - what do you mean by "walks uphill"?


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## Curious

As you know I'm no expert, but I'll give it a shot. 

Missy
Strengths: Strong pasterns, nice rear leg angulation, stands on nice hooves, fair length.

Areas for improvement: Brisket lacks depth, could use more depth but it isn't terrible, topline looks a little weak in the chine and seems to roach up in the back, steep rump, and her feet seem to toe out a bit.

In general she seems like a very sturdy girl.

Buttercup
Strengths: Neck blends fairly smoothly at the shoulder, awesome depth of body, strong pasterns, excellent rear leg angulation, hooves seem tight and straight, nice width between the hocks and hips.

Room for improvement: Short body, weak in chine, steep rump, brisket.
As far as her udder goes, it's got okay attachments and capacity, but could use more, and more rear and fore udder attachments and blending of the fore. Medial isn't bad, isn't great. She doesn't have any serious faults IMO.

All around I like this doe, she's got a very functional and sturdy look to her.

Buddy
Strengths: Excellent topline, very nice length of body, nice rump, stands on very sturdy legs that are strong in the pastern and with knees that don't buck, excellent rear leg angulation.

Areas to improve on: Brisket, depth of body, his back feet seem to toe out a bit, and if I want to be picky his rump could be flatter.

Overall I really like this buckling.

Hope this helped you some...I judged these sort of loosely keeping in mind they weren't for show, although the show animals are supposed to present the picture of funcionality...they seem like very sturdy goats. Conformation aside I think they're adorable.


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## Texaslass

nchen7 said:


> thanks enchantedgoats. Nigerian? i don't think there are any Nigerians on the island....
> 
> question - what do you mean by "walks uphill"?


Probably can he breed a bigger goat then him.

Stupid question here: what is "chine"?


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## nchen7

NDlover said:


> Stupid question here: what is "chine"?


not stupid question...i was wondering the same thing!! lol


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> not stupid question...i was wondering the same thing!! lol


Preeeeety sure I know 
If you know where the loin is, it's just before that. 
There's the head/neck ill use H 
The shoulders Ill use S 
___ for the chine 
FFF for extra room on the back. 
-_-_-_-_ for loin

And DD for hips. 
Oh and zz for tail. 
Let's see if I can diagram this!!
(Ignore the periods, the letters won't stay in place. )

H
..H
...H 
......SSFFF____-_-_-_-_-_DD 
.............................................Z
................................................Z

Hope that makes sense


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## Curious

It is the part right behind the withers. This is where I learned it; http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/89-3/toplines_hold_a_lot_of_weight/


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## emilieanne

Curious said:


> It is the part right behind the withers. This is where I learned it; http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/89-3/toplines_hold_a_lot_of_weight/


Curious to the rescue. Lol 
I feel dumb now. Shoulda just looked up a actual picture!


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## Curious

Hey you saw how dumb I looked on that other thread haha so don't be. I used to think the loin was the booby looking things in the front of the goat, and that the brisket was it's armpit.


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## emilieanne

Curious said:


> Hey you saw how dumb I looked on that other thread haha so don't be. I used to think the loin was the booby looking things in the front of the goat, and that the brisket was it's armpit.


It's ok!! lol I was along with you on that!!


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## nchen7

emilieanne, i loved your diagram. i wasn't sure where you were going with the symbols until i saw the final product! 

thank you all for your thoughts! i'm still learning with this conformation stuff with goats (they're all just cute to me), so i'm glad to know what i'll be looking at when i get home tonight!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Curious said:


> As you know I'm no expert, but I'll give it a shot.
> 
> Missy
> Strengths: Strong pasterns, nice rear leg angulation, stands on nice hooves, fair length.
> 
> Areas for improvement: Brisket lacks depth, could use more depth but it isn't terrible, topline looks a little weak in the chine and seems to roach up in the back, steep rump, and her feet seem to toe out a bit.
> 
> In general she seems like a very sturdy girl.
> 
> Buttercup
> Strengths: Neck blends fairly smoothly at the shoulder, awesome depth of body, strong pasterns, excellent rear leg angulation, hooves seem tight and straight, nice width between the hocks and hips.
> 
> Room for improvement: Short body, weak in chine, steep rump, brisket.
> As far as her udder goes, it's got okay attachments and capacity, but could use more, and more rear and fore udder attachments and blending of the fore. Medial isn't bad, isn't great. She doesn't have any serious faults IMO.
> 
> All around I like this doe, she's got a very functional and sturdy look to her.
> 
> Buddy
> Strengths: Excellent topline, very nice length of body, nice rump, stands on very sturdy legs that are strong in the pastern and with knees that don't buck, excellent rear leg angulation.
> 
> Areas to improve on: Brisket, depth of body, his back feet seem to toe out a bit, and if I want to be picky his rump could be flatter.
> 
> Overall I really like this buckling.
> 
> Hope this helped you some...I judged these sort of loosely keeping in mind they weren't for show, although the show animals are supposed to present the picture of funcionality...they seem like very sturdy goats. Conformation aside I think they're adorable.


Curious; You did an excelent job for still learning all this.

Nchen7; Even though these goats aren't for show, I can point out everything that was look over or missed, if you want.


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## nchen7

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Nchen7; Even though these goats aren't for show, I can point out everything that was look over or missed, if you want.


Yes please Lil Bits! I've been following your critiques and I'm learning so much! I'm really new at goats and seeing which goat is well put together, so I'd love to hear what you think of my goats!!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Missy,
Cons:
Steep rump
Looks to have a bit too much angulation in the rear legs
Looks to toe out
Hips are higher than withers
Lack of brisket
Looks to be weak in the chine
And the sternum/chest floor and rib cage does not blend smoothly

Pros:
Long neck
Strong pasturns
Fair amount of body length, but could use more
Fair depth, but could use more

Buttercup
Cons:
Hips higher than withers, causing her topline to go upward as it gets to the rump, the opposite that you want, missy's is the same way
Steep rump
Lack of brisket
Bit of a short neck
Bit short bodied, lacking length

Pros:
Nice depth
Strong shoulders
Good pasturns
Good front legs
Rear legs have a nice angle

For her udder:
The fore udder attachment needs more strength, and it could blend smoother
She needs stronger rear attachments and higher and tighter in the escutcheon
She needs a deeper medial susensory ligament, it should be to where it clearly defines the halves of the udder
The teats could be more defined and more separated from the udder
The teats wing out a bit, and need to be more centered
She could use a more capacious udder

Overall, not _that _bad.

Buddy
Cons:
Needs more brisket
Has a bit of a steep rump
Needs a longer neck
Could use a bit more upwards topline (the topline could use more slope downward to the rump)
Needs more body length

Pros:
Good pasturns
Fair topline
Nice rear leg angle
Good shoulders

For now, look for a buck with a level topline, length and a good rump. I doubt you could find the best buck of all time back there, but work your way up with level toplines, length and level rumps. That will imrove the kids a LOT. And if you can add to that buck, by finding one from good udders, that will be great.


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## nchen7

Thank you everyone for your critiques! much appreciated!

so overall, your opinions are that breeding Buddy to Missy will exacerbate the cons?


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## katie

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Missy,
> Cons:
> Steep rump
> Looks to have a bit too much angulation in the rear legs
> Looks to toe out
> Hips are higher than withers
> Lack of brisket
> Looks to be weak in the chine
> And the sternum/chest floor and rib cage does not blend smoothly
> 
> Pros:
> Long neck
> Strong pasturns
> Fair amount of body length, but could use more
> Fair depth, but could use more
> 
> Buttercup
> Cons:
> Hips higher than withers, causing her topline to go upward as it gets to the rump, the opposite that you want, missy's is the same way
> Steep rump
> Lack of brisket
> Bit of a short neck
> Bit short bodied, lacking length
> 
> Pros:
> Nice depth
> Strong shoulders
> Good pasturns
> Good front legs
> Rear legs have a nice angle
> 
> For her udder:
> The fore udder attachment needs more strength, and it could blend smoother
> She needs stronger rear attachments and higher and tighter in the escutcheon
> She needs a deeper medial susensory ligament, it should be to where it clearly defines the halves of the udder
> The teats could be more defined and more separated from the udder
> The teats wing out a bit, and need to be more centered
> She could use a more capacious udder
> 
> Overall, not _that _bad.
> 
> Buddy
> Cons:
> Needs more brisket
> Has a bit of a steep rump
> Needs a longer neck
> Could use a bit more upwards topline (the topline could use more slope downward to the rump)
> Needs more body length
> 
> Pros:
> Good pasturns
> Fair topline
> Nice rear leg angle
> Good shoulders
> 
> For now, look for a buck with a level topline, length and a good rump. I doubt you could find the best buck of all time back there, but work your way up with level toplines, length and level rumps. That will imrove the kids a LOT. And if you can add to that buck, by finding one from good udders, that will be great.


 MY GOODNESS! How are you supposed to improve your goats if there is that much wrong with them!  I certainly don't want to put my goats up for evaluation.


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## TrinityRanch

emilieanne said:


> Curious to the rescue. Lol
> I feel dumb now. Shoulda just looked up a actual picture!


I actually quite liked yours! I would have never gotten original like that...  I'm always just like- Here's a picture. Here's a link. Here's something that someone else already put work into...


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

katie said:


> MY GOODNESS! How are you supposed to improve your goats if there is that much wrong with them!  I certainly don't want to put my goats up for evaluation.


Haha, these thing is this can ALL be fixed with a good correct buck. The kids will come out much, much, much, better, and then breed the doe kids to a nice buck again, and you have nice goats. Keep doing that, and you get great goats.

And yes I think breeding Buddy to Missy will give the kids the same con traits, and that makes it harder to breed out. The more cons you breed together, it's like breeding them for those cons, the next generation fixates on them.

BUT Buddy has a straighter topline than Missy, so it will give the kids a better topline, and better rear legs, so thats a bit of a +


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## emilieanne

TrinityRanch said:


> I actually quite liked yours! I would have never gotten original like that...  I'm always just like- Here's a picture. Here's a link. Here's something that someone else already put work into...


Nchen7 and trinity: thank you!! 
It took me a minute to keep my phone from making it look weird. Lol


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## nchen7

katie said:


> MY GOODNESS! How are you supposed to improve your goats if there is that much wrong with them!  I certainly don't want to put my goats up for evaluation.


it's ok Katie, i know my goats aren't even close to being show quality, but that doesn't mean i love them any less. i merely wanted professional eyes to look at them so i can learn about goat conformation (which is basically the purpose of this post...i wanted to learn). i see other people's conformation posts, but it's different when i know what my goats look like in person.

i also want to be able to see a goat and even with my newbie eyes, provide an assessment on whether their conformation is sound.

i know it's not personal....i'm just here to learn!


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> it's ok Katie, i know my goats aren't even close to being show quality, but that doesn't mean i love them any less. i merely wanted professional eyes to look at them so i can learn about goat conformation (which is basically the purpose of this post...i wanted to learn). i see other people's conformation posts, but it's different when i know what my goats look like in person.
> 
> i also want to be able to see a goat and even with my newbie eyes, provide an assessment on whether their conformation is sound.
> 
> i know it's not personal....i'm just here to learn!


And that's good that you, as a newbie, even understands that conformation has to do with it. I didn't for quite a while..


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## nchen7

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> And yes I think breeding Buddy to Missy will give the kids the same con traits, and that makes it harder to breed out. The more cons you breed together, it's like breeding them for those cons, the next generation fixates on them.
> 
> BUT Buddy has a straighter topline than Missy, so it will give the kids a better topline, and better rear legs, so thats a bit of a +


well...i think it's time to shop around for a boyfriend for Missy, and see what turns up! there's a guy down the road with a few bucks. one looks saneen and i think an alpine, but they're both really scraggly looking. he uses them as bush goats. i may put up a poster at the feed stores and see what kind of response i get in the next month or so...

will def be back to ask for boyfriend options for little Missy, and of course Buttercup when it's her time again!

and....i made missy stand the way she is... lol. she usually hangs out on her heels! i'm trying to trim to correct that. sigh! so much to do for these things!


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## Curious

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Missy,
> Cons:
> Steep rump
> Looks to have a bit too much angulation in the rear legs
> Looks to toe out
> Hips are higher than withers
> Lack of brisket
> Looks to be weak in the chine
> And the sternum/chest floor and rib cage does not blend smoothly
> 
> Pros:
> Long neck
> Strong pasturns
> Fair amount of body length, but could use more
> Fair depth, but could use more
> 
> Buttercup
> Cons:
> Hips higher than withers, causing her topline to go upward as it gets to the rump, the opposite that you want, missy's is the same way
> Steep rump
> Lack of brisket
> Bit of a short neck
> Bit short bodied, lacking length
> 
> Pros:
> Nice depth
> Strong shoulders
> Good pasturns
> Good front legs
> Rear legs have a nice angle
> 
> For her udder:
> The fore udder attachment needs more strength, and it could blend smoother
> She needs stronger rear attachments and higher and tighter in the escutcheon
> She needs a deeper medial susensory ligament, it should be to where it clearly defines the halves of the udder
> The teats could be more defined and more separated from the udder
> The teats wing out a bit, and need to be more centered
> She could use a more capacious udder
> 
> Overall, not that bad.
> 
> Buddy
> Cons:
> Needs more brisket
> Has a bit of a steep rump
> Needs a longer neck
> Could use a bit more upwards topline (the topline could use more slope downward to the rump)
> Needs more body length
> 
> Pros:
> Good pasturns
> Fair topline
> Nice rear leg angle
> Good shoulders
> 
> For now, look for a buck with a level topline, length and a good rump. I doubt you could find the best buck of all time back there, but work your way up with level toplines, length and level rumps. That will imrove the kids a LOT. And if you can add to that buck, by finding one from good udders, that will be great.


WOW! I don't know how you're able to go so in depth. I would love to be able to look at a goat and just spit out facts like that  I know who I want to judge my girls and guys!


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## nchen7

i know!!! Little Bits is awesome - it's all those years being a judge! I secretly wanted her to chime in on this post from the time I posted it!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Curious said:


> WOW! I don't know how you're able to go so in depth. I would love to be able to look at a goat and just spit out facts like that  I know who I want to judge my girls and guys!


Give it a few years, you'll be able to give someone the run down, however, having an eye for conformation makes it harder and harder to find something you REALLY like.



nchen7 said:


> i know!!! Little Bits is awesome - it's all those years being a judge! I secretly wanted her to chime in on this post from the time I posted it!


  Woohoo! I just read I'm awesome! 
I never pass up the chance to judge something


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## emilieanne

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Give it a few years, you'll be able to give someone the run down, however, having an eye for conformation makes it harder and harder to find something you REALLY like.
> 
> Woohoo! I just read I'm awesome!
> I never pass up the chance to judge something


Well it's true, you're amazing!!
You will now be my idol!!  I too wanna be able to do that!


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## enchantedgoats

nchen7 said:


> thanks enchantedgoats. Nigerian? i don't think there are any Nigerians on the island....
> 
> question - what do you mean by "walks uphill"?


 i mean that the withers should be higher than the rump


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## Curious

emilieanne said:


> Well it's true, you're amazing!!
> You will now be my idol!!  I too wanna be able to do that!


Ditto on that!!


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## Texaslass

NDlover said:


> Probably can he breed a bigger goat then him.





> I mean that the withers should be higher than the rump.


Okay, now I feel REALLY dumb!  :doh:


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## nchen7

enchantedgoats said:


> i mean that the withers should be higher than the rump


OOOOHHH!!!! makes perfect sense now! :thumbup:


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## happybleats

> Woohoo! I just read I'm awesome!


Little bits youre a hoot!!


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## happybleats

nchen7 I think they are adorbable either way L: ) and I agree with you...we all should work on improving the breed not just breed for the sake of breeding..always work up : )


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## nchen7

Yes! I agree with you happybleats! I love my goaties, but too bad people down here don't breed for good diary characteristics! Hope I can find a nice buck. But...I'm glad I'm learning so much! Love this forum!


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> Yes! I agree with you happybleats! I love my goaties, but too bad people down here don't breed for good diary characteristics! Hope I can find a nice buck. But...I'm glad I'm learning so much! Love this forum!


I know it might be a little expensive, but is it possible to ship in semen? I'm not sure where you're at:/


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## nchen7

I haven't looked into the cost, but I presume it would be expensive. I'm in Barbados....there will be the cost of the semen, export licence, shipping, import licence, duties, etc etc. Sounds pricier than finding something here that works. Liked I said, they're for home diary...I don't need anything fancy.....yet. Hehe. 

My bf knows of a guy who has a goat diary...I've actually been there before but that was before having goats. On top of posting a flier at some feed stores, I'm getting him to call this guy and see if he studs out his buck.


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> I haven't looked into the cost, but I presume it would be expensive. I'm in Barbados....there will be the cost of the semen, export licence, shipping, import licence, duties, etc etc. Sounds pricier than finding something here that works. Liked I said, they're for home diary...I don't need anything fancy.....yet. Hehe.
> 
> My bf knows of a guy who has a goat diary...I've actually been there before but that was before having goats. On top of posting a flier at some feed stores, I'm getting him to call this guy and see if he studs out his buck.


Hopefully he does!! 
Still don't know where Barbados is, sorry:/ teenager;P 
But, I can see where that would be extra expensive.... Hmm.


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## nchen7

Barbados is the most eastern caribbean island. Its about 3.5 hrs southeast of miami. I never knew where this was until I started dating my bf, so don't feel bad that you don't know. 
http://www.customsailing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/caribbeanmap.jpg

Don't worry. I'll be posting boyfriend prospects when we find some!


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> Barbados is the most eastern caribbean island. Its about 3.5 hrs southeast of miami.
> http://www.customsailing.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/caribbeanmap.jpg
> 
> Don't worry. I'll be posting boyfriend prospects when we find some!


Heeeeey well welcome to the semi area. Lol (in Florida!) 
Hopefully you find some really good boyfriends for your goats!! 
The other islands- are there possibly a good breeder that you could get semen from?:/ 
I don't know, just having a brain blast right now


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## nchen7

Haha...thanks! I'll try on island first! There r lots of boys who win at the AgroFest we have here, but there r ONLY boys that win! So I'm sure I can find a buck with good structure...just not sure if I can find good structure AND good diary lines to help increase capacity.


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> Haha...thanks! I'll try on island first! There r lots of boys who win at the AgroFest we have here, but there r ONLY boys that win! So I'm sure I can find a buck with good structure...just not sure if I can find good structure AND good diary lines to help increase capacity.


That's true. 
Someone once told me "they may be the best at the show, but if all that is at the show is crap, then they're just the best of the worst".
It's real hard even here in FL to find that as a package deal. So I feel your pain and I wish you luck!!


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## nchen7

Thanks emilieanne! Will be posting options...let everyone see what I'm really working with!


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> Thanks emilieanne! Will be posting options...let everyone see what I'm really working with!


You're welcome!


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## Curious

Maybe you could possibly find a breeder(s) who would be willing to go halves on importing semen? It would be win win for them (and you), they don't have to pay as much, and they get awesome genetics.


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## nchen7

Curious said:


> Maybe you could possibly find a breeder(s) who would be willing to go halves on importing semen? It would be win win for them (and you), they don't have to pay as much, and they get awesome genetics.


that's a great idea...however Bajans don't like to share, and it doesn't seem like people don't care too much about this kind of stuff. it's ok, i'll see what bachelors are out there, and go from there!

just a side story - we've been looking for heritage breed layers for a long time (you know, marans, orpingtons, etc). there's one guy that we know of who we saw at the agricultural fair that had breeding pairs of several types of heritage breeds. we offered to buy chicks off him, any mix of breeds b/c we wanted them for home use. he wouldn't sell them to us...non negotiable. I don't know what he does with the chicks, but he doesn't sell to anyone.... it's a bizarre place down here, there's no sense of community. it's like every man for himself, and if you have information or something I would like to make my life better, tough luck. you're on your own. it's weird....


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> that's a great idea...however Bajans don't like to share, and it doesn't seem like people don't care too much about this kind of stuff. it's ok, i'll see what bachelors are out there, and go from there!
> 
> just a side story - we've been looking for heritage breed layers for a long time (you know, marans, orpingtons, etc). there's one guy that we know of who we saw at the agricultural fair that had breeding pairs of several types of heritage breeds. we offered to buy chicks off him, any mix of breeds b/c we wanted them for home use. he wouldn't sell them to us...non negotiable. I don't know what he does with the chicks, but he doesn't sell to anyone.... it's a bizarre place down here, there's no sense of community. it's like every man for himself, and if you have information or something I would like to make my life better, tough luck. you're on your own. it's weird....


Dang! I'm really sorry. That is just CRAZY!!!!


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## nchen7

oh ya...really crazy. there are 3 different animal rescue groups here...and neither of them help one another to further their cause. it's a very you vs me way of thinking. SOOO bizarre!

one of the many reasons why I want to move back to Canada!


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## katie

nchen7 said:


> it's ok Katie, i know my goats aren't even close to being show quality, but that doesn't mean i love them any less. i merely wanted professional eyes to look at them so i can learn about goat conformation (which is basically the purpose of this post...i wanted to learn). i see other people's conformation posts, but it's different when i know what my goats look like in person.
> 
> i also want to be able to see a goat and even with my newbie eyes, provide an assessment on whether their conformation is sound.
> 
> i know it's not personal....i'm just here to learn!


 Neither are mine. That's what bothers me because I feel like my goats are inadiquate in a world of perfect goats. But I like my goats. I have been learning from you post too.


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> oh ya...really crazy. there are 3 different animal rescue groups here...and neither of them help one another to further their cause. it's a very you vs me way of thinking. SOOO bizarre!
> 
> one of the many reasons why I want to move back to Canada!


I say do it!! 
What Provence?


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## nchen7

i don't think b/c a goat doesn't have perfect conformation that they're inadequate! they just won't win in the show ring. all it matters is that you love them for what they are, and that they love you back!


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## nchen7

emilieanne said:


> I say do it!!
> What Provence?


haha....gotta convince the boy to want to move back with me. i grew up in southern Ontario, so i'd like to stick to there...but land is so expensive!


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> haha....gotta convince the boy to want to move back with me. i grew up in southern Ontario, so i'd like to stick to there...but land is so expensive!


Not to mention hard to find!! 
I have family in cowansville, Quebec; Quebec, Quebec; and Mississauga, Ontario. 
We drove around & all I saw was street lights & buildings. Lol 
Until I got to cowansville. There it was all land.


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## nchen7

there's tons of land if you go west of Mississauga, east of Toronto, and of course north. LOTS of land north. Mississauga is a suburban nightmare! lol. i'm a Toronto girl, but i do also love the country.


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## Curious

nchen7 said:


> that's a great idea...however Bajans don't like to share, and it doesn't seem like people don't care too much about this kind of stuff. it's ok, i'll see what bachelors are out there, and go from there!
> 
> just a side story - we've been looking for heritage breed layers for a long time (you know, marans, orpingtons, etc). there's one guy that we know of who we saw at the agricultural fair that had breeding pairs of several types of heritage breeds. we offered to buy chicks off him, any mix of breeds b/c we wanted them for home use. he wouldn't sell them to us...non negotiable. I don't know what he does with the chicks, but he doesn't sell to anyone.... it's a bizarre place down here, there's no sense of community. it's like every man for himself, and if you have information or something I would like to make my life better, tough luck. you're on your own. it's weird....


That's so crazy! No wonder you want to move back...and I thought people here could be jerks. Makes me really appreciate living in the states.

Good luck finding a boyfriend for Buttercup  we'll be eager to see her choices. Something long tall and handsome


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## nchen7

Curious said:


> Good luck finding a boyfriend for Buttercup  we'll be eager to see her choices. Something long tall and handsome


aren't we all looking for something long, tall and handsome?!?!? lol!!


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> there's tons of land if you go west of Mississauga, east of Toronto, and of course north. LOTS of land north. Mississauga is a suburban nightmare! lol. i'm a Toronto girl, but i do also love the country.


I love the country 
Lol I agree though, Mississauga is a nightmare period. 
Some kid that I met took me on some kind of crazy thing. We got soda cans, shook then up, and splattered them in the road at certain cars. I don't understand why?

But if you go to the French speaking areas, I've found out they look at you funny if you don't know that much French. Haha


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## nchen7

that kid sounds weird and bored. 

yep...those are the frenchies for ya. lol. it's not just Quebecois French....France French people are like that too. but i find if you shoot them with a "bonjour", they tend to soften up.


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> that kid sounds weird and bored.
> 
> yep...those are the frenchies for ya. lol. it's not just Quebecois French....France French people are like that too. but i find if you shoot them with a "bonjour", they tend to soften up.


Well I hear French from my mom everyday so I know the greetings. 
Bonjour ça va? Ça va bein! À toi? Ça va merci.

Mom could tell me to put my clothes away and ill understand. But I dunno. Guess those certain people didnt like new comers.. Oh well

I didn't know that about France French people also! Hmm. 
Aparantly if you wear white sneakers, they know your American? Hahaha.


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## nchen7

emilieanne said:


> I didn't know that about France French people also! Hmm.
> Aparantly if you wear white sneakers, they know your American? Hahaha.


HAHAHA! I didn't know that! lol.


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> HAHAHA! I didn't know that! lol.


That's what I'm saying!! 
I'm American kind of, so I think I'm gunna wear white sneakers!(; 
Are you kidding me? They'll be brown by the end of the day....


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## katie

nchen7 said:


> i don't think b/c a goat doesn't have perfect conformation that they're inadequate! they just won't win in the show ring. all it matters is that you love them for what they are, and that they love you back!


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## Texaslass

You know nchen, I thought you'd have more people try to guess the breed(s) of your goats! I was interested to see what they thought.


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## nchen7

i know, me too! they're quite a mix. i think there are some saneens here on island...i thought i saw a white buck near me that looks like a saneen..... these girls could be anything!


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## fd123

This pic will help to better understand what is where. ..lol.. I refer to this pic often!


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## Texaslass

Somebody else want to guess nchen's goats' breeds??


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## nchen7

I feel like I should start another thread...


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## emilieanne

You should!! I think the first one is an alien goat that idk WHAT breed she is!(; lol. 
Second maybe togg cross? 
And third looks like a saanen!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

fd123 said:


> This pic will help to better understand what is where. ..lol.. I refer to this pic often!


Well, I don't want to be "that person" but that pic isn't right.... what they are calling "tassels" are not tassels, they are waddles 
sorry, just had to through that out there, didn't want somebody using incorrect terms!


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## nchen7

emilieanne said:


> You should!! I think the first one is an alien goat that idk WHAT breed she is!(; lol.
> Second maybe togg cross?
> And third looks like a saanen!


the first does look alien-ish. LOL. and the funny thing with her is she looks diff in pictures!! it's like I go to take a picture, and she makes a face, and she doesn't look like her in the pic! silly girl.

the third is the 2nd's buckling....no clue who his dad is. momma got out and was a floosey...got knocked up! lol will try to get better pics this weekend!


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## nchen7

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Well, I don't want to be "that person" but that pic isn't right.... what they are calling "tassels" are not tassels, they are waddles
> sorry, just had to through that out there, didn't want somebody using incorrect terms!


and it's missing the "chine"....a part of the goat that I learned earlier in the thread!


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> and it's missing the "chine"....a part of the goat that I learned earlier in the thread!


Lol yeah with my reeeeal lovely **not** diagram.


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## nchen7

it was a great diagram! I liked it!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

nchen7 said:


> and it's missing the "chine"....a part of the goat that I learned earlier in the thread!


 IT IS! Ugh well then that picture needs to be tied up, and thrown off a building! UNACCEPTABLE! Haha, I have a parts pic, let me find it.


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## emilieanne

nchen7 said:


> it was a great diagram! I liked it!


Lol well thanks


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

There, that's better, lol


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## emilieanne

Yes, yes it is


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Here is a Linear Traits diagram, the "25" is where you want your doe to be.


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## KasKiRanch

Do you have the option of AI? I know you are limited to the goats on your island .


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## KasKiRanch

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> Here is a Linear Traits diagram, the "25" is where you want your doe to be.


 OOO can you email me that as an attachment? I want to save it as I am learning about conformation and linear appraisal in goats (use to cows and horses) goats are new to me and I haven't a clue to some of the comments people make.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

^^Sure, if you want you can also left click on the pictures and save them to your photos on your computer.


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## KasKiRanch

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> ^^Sure, if you want you can also left click on the pictures and save them to your photos on your computer.


I saved from the forum, sometimes when I do that they don't save true to size so when I open them they are smaller and blurry. These seemed to save fine though.

Thanks!


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## Texaslass

Haha, I noticed that too, Little Bits - tassels, not waddles!Oh, and those are great reference pictures on conformation! I'm gonna save them!
I didn't know I was starting this whole thread back up, lol! I just think its fun to guess the breeds.


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## nchen7

i'll get some more fun pictures of them so you can see their faces, and do a new thread. it's fun guessing....especially Missy....she's part Nubian, but that's as far as I can go on that one. lol


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## katie

how do you breed for the withers to be higher than hips? all of mine are the opposite.


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## nchen7

i think you need to find a buck with hips lower than withers, and keep finding bucks with good conformation, and keep breeding subsequent offspring with good bucks, and you'll end up with goats with proper conformation.

someone correct me if i'm wrong!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

^^ You got it. This would be an excelent buck to fix that, and to use there after.


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## Texaslass

It's funny, for a long time i thought steep rumps looked _better_ than flat ones, lol! I didn't know anything about it, and since our girls both have steep rumps and they were from a dairy and registerable, I guess I assumed it was a good thing. When we got another alpine and I noticed her rump was very flat, I thought it looked odd. 

Out of curiosity, what _is_ better about a flat rump? At the risk of sounding really stupid, how does rump steeepness or flatness make a difference in a dairy goat?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

A steep rump makes it harder for does to kid, because the kids have to be delivered at such an angle, a flat/level rump makes kidding much easier. A level rump gives them ease and fluid walking, where a steep rump can make them look stiff when they are walking. Having a level rump means the spine is all level, it does not curve down to make a steep rump.
And anatomically, a level rump is correct.


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## Texaslass

That makes total sense; makes me wonder why I didn't already know it! 
Just for future reference, how does one correctly set up a goat for conformation pictures? Are there rules, or do they just need to stand naturally straight? It looks to me like they often have their legs spread out by the handler, and that maybe they also push their rumps down a bit? Or maybe I just don't know.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I think I should write a book on Structure of a Dairy Goat, whats good, and what's bad.


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## Texaslass

Lol, sorry, I can look it up somewhere, I just like asking you prfessionals questions.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

NDlover said:


> That makes total sense; makes me wonder why I didn't already know it!
> Just for future reference, how does one correctly set up a goat for conformation pictures? Are there rules, or do they just need to stand naturally straight? It looks to me like they often have their legs spread out by the handler, and that maybe they also push their rumps down a bit? Or maybe I just don't know.


When setting them up, they pretty much stand the right way, but you make their legs in line wih each other. But if they don't stand that way, the think of it like this...

From the beginning of the neck from the withers, draw a straight immaginary line down, where that line is, is where the tip of the toes should be placed

And for the rear legs, at the middle of the rump draw an immaginary line straight down, where that line is is where the tip of the rear toes should be. If that puts the rear legs too far out behind them, then try 1/4 of the way behind the hips.

Something I have noticed though, when a goat has a steep rump, lining the legs from the middle of the rump looks too far out, but with a level rump it looks good.

When done correctly it should look like this doe


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

NDlover said:


> Lol, sorry, I can look it up somewhere, I just like asking you prfessionals questions.


Haha, no it's fine, I'm happy to help


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## Texaslass

Thanks! I'll remember that when I get better pics of my girls. I'm thinking I'll wait until our little buck grows a bit and you can tell how he's going to look when he's grown (at least I'mm assuming it's easier to tell when they're bigger :shrug


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## Texaslass

That's a beautiful doe, BTW; is she one of yours?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

She is a Redwood Hills Alpine doe, not my doe, but I have the bloodlines. 
And it is just as easy to judge a kid as it is to judge a mature one. They are pretty much mini versions of their adult self when they are kids...


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## nchen7

Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> ^^ You got it. This would be an excelent buck to fix that, and to use there after.


that buck looks awesome. what do you think are the chances i'll find a buck that looks like that down here???? (slim...i know. lol)



Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG said:


> I think I should write a book on Structure of a Dairy Goat, whats good, and what's bad.


yes you should! with lots of diagrams so it doesn't all get lost in words

i learn so much from you!

ok...question - what does "posty" mean? I read it on conformation descriptions, but i can't for the life of me figure out what that means.....


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Posty, when they back legs have little to no angle; straight up and down like a board, a post if you would


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## nchen7

oohhhh!!! got it!!!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

A diagram, you know, if someone ever steals my laptop, they are going to think I'm crazy, it has nothing but diagrams, and my animals pictures on it :laugh:

Posty, Correct, Sickle


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## Emzi00

Welll... Ill take a shot on guessing breeds 

Missy- Nubian and Alpine maybe a hint of saanen I think for sure alpine beacause of the two tone coat and the facial markings. My American alpine wether looks like her except with more black and erect ears.

Buttercup- Togg mix.. going off the markings on her could have some alpine in her 

Buddy- looks to definitely have saanen in him 


They are soo cute


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## Sylvie

> Originally Posted by Little-Bits-N-Pieces-ADG View Post
> I think I should write a book on Structure of a Dairy Goat, whats good, and what's bad.
> 
> 
> 
> yes you should! with lots of diagrams so it doesn't all get lost in words
Click to expand...

I second that!


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