# Help with picking future herd sire



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I've been looking a while for a buck kid that would improve dairy character, teat placement and size, and udder attachments in my nigerian dwarf herd. I've found three bucklings that I think would do a great job improving my herd but I can't decide between them. Any help would be appreciated. 

Going off the dam and sire's dam pictures. Which would you add to your herd?

Option 1: a twin that inherits milking stars in ADGA and AGS from sire and dam.









Dam















Sire's dam








Option 2: a single that inherits a milking star in ADGA from sire and dam.









Dam















Sire's dam


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Option 3: a quad that inherits a milking star in ADGA.









Dam















Sire's dam















Thanks!


----------



## MylieD (Sep 16, 2013)

I think #1 would probably be best, but #3 is gorgeous. Well, they're all handsome, I just love his colors.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

What did you like about #1 that made you pick him over the others? I think I like #2 the best but him being a single makes me hesitate. I've heard you shouldn't pick bucks that were singles for herd sires.


----------



## MylieD (Sep 16, 2013)

I'm not very experienced or anything. The dams udders looked better than the other ones. He's a good looking guy too.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks! I'm not an expert either so every little bit of input helps.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm just gonna put in my 2 cents on Dill's.. My friend bought quite a few from her.. Not one of them turned out well... Two of them weren't too bad, but the rest were not much of anything for the price she paid... I've done some searching in other herds and most weren't too much to look at... But there was some nice ones too...
Just my 2 cents...


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks for the info on your friend's experience with Dills goats. Their buck kids are usually way out of my price range but these ones aren't too high (they just sold two for $2500 each!). Option 1 is from prairie wood where as 2 and 3 are from dills. They are all priced at $600 which is my top dollar.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Did your friend buy does or bucks from dills? Did they not produce great udders? Conformation not good? Or do you just think they are over priced for what you get? I'd love to know more.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Ok, so I'm leaning towards option 1 now. I sent his breeder an email for some more info and updated picture since that picture was taken when he was a day old. Can't wait to hear back from them.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

She got a buck, and multiple does... They either didn't mature well, or didnt freshen well or didn't have nice kids.. They for sure aren't worth what she charges (those $2,500 kids) honestly, that is crazy and I would never buy a kid for that price no matter how nice! Lol! You never know what you are gonna get and that's a lot to risk for a kid.. If it was an older, proven animal, it would be more reasonable lol!

I don't know anyone one else personally that has goats from Dill's so it's only one experience that I know of.


----------



## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

I like #1 too - better udders


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Buck #1, all the way around. He has the udder genetics and his dam has great stature and balance.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies. They've really helped.


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Buck #1, all the way around. He has the udder genetics and his dam has great stature and balance.


That dam did fairly well at Nationals.


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

You might want to find out if the dams were tested for CAE and the results.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I know dills pulls from birth and raises on CAE prevention. Last summer prairie wood had a herd reduction sale and I know all of the ones for sale were tested and negative but I don't know if all of the breeding does were tested. Probably not cause she has a lot of does. In my email I asked when was the last time the dam of option 1 was tested. So I'll see what she says.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Ok heard back from prairie wood. The dam of Option 1 hasn't been tested for CAE/Johnes recently. The breeder says they do spot checks every year but never the whole herd. So I'm not sure what to do. In a way I can understand not testing everyone but if your charging $600 for a kid I would like the dam to be tested at least for CAE within the last year if dam raising. 

There is a 2 yo buck for sale on CL a lot closer to me than these buck kids and half the price. He just tested negative for CAE/Johnes in January. I'm considering going to look at him. They don't have good conformation pictures (he's all hairy) but I like his immediate female relatives. I haven't been able to upload pictures since the site updated yesterday. So sorry no pictures. 

Dam: SG Buffalo Clover Lady Diana 1*M 88 VEVV 

Dam's Dam: PGCH Buffalo Clover Princess *D

Sire: GCH/MCH/PGCH Buffalo Clover Valentino ++B 91 EEE

Sire's Dam: SG Five Alarm Sophia Loren *D 85 +VVV

I don't have any Buffalo Clover lines. So he might be a good outcross for my does. His dam and sire's dam have very large teats that look perfect for hand milking. They look pretty uphill and seem to have fairly level rumps. I found pictures of them on Buffalo Clovers website. What do you guy think? Does he sound like a better choice?


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Yes. 
I wouldn't want to worry for the approximately two years that it takes before CAE might show up. (Been there, done that.)

Not only that, the pedigree looks great and at two years old, he's ready whenever you need him.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Ok I figured out how to load pictures, so here are the pictures of the two year old buck and his family.

Option 4: has a milking star with ADGA 








Dam















Dam' dam















Sire








Sire's dam








He's only been bred to two does 4 times. Last spring he sired 2 bucklings and 1 doeling. The does he is bred to this year will start kidding in March. They are selling all their NDs to focus on breeding nubians. I'm gonna go check him out tomorrow.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

For $600 per kid, I would expect testing of the whole herd annually. That is way too much money to take a chance.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

That bucks dam and sire's dam seem to be lacking in rear udder height... 

Maybe see if Prairie Wood will test his dam for you?

Would you be shipping these kids in? Or picking them up?


----------



## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

I would not buy #4 to improve my herd's udders. What J.O.Y. says, they're lacking rear udder height, big time. I liked #1's and #2's families best--but I would expect all testing to be done, for that price. I've bought goats for less, that had the testing done. Dam #1 looks a little lean for my liking--too ribsy.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I'd be driving to pick them up... I don't think she would be interested in testing the dam for me. She let me know that's she very busy and she didn't know when she would be able to get me an updated picture. Takes a lot less time to take a picture than draw blood and ship if off. Also, her kids sell pretty fast. It's not like I'm the only person interested. 

I haven't decided what I'm going to do. Thanks for everyone's input on udders.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

That's too bad... :/ but, yah, they do sell fast from her...

If you go with Dill's is so the one related to Keena... I've seen some daughters that Ellen has that are fairly nice


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> For $600 per kid, I would expect testing of the whole herd annually. That is way too much money to take a chance.


Most of her kids are for less. Just the bucklings that inherit milking stars and kids with 5 or 6 permanent champions in their first two generations sell that high or a little higher... Last time I counted she had around 200 breeding animals in her herd. So annual herd testing would be quite expensive. From a breeders perspective, I can understand spot checking. But from a buyers perspective, I want to buy from an annually tested clean herd. This is so frustrating!


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> That's too bad... :/ but, yah, they do sell fast from her...
> 
> If you go with Dill's is so the one related to Keena... I've seen some daughters that Ellen has that are fairly nice


Yes. Kenna's grandson is my favorite from dills. She is a very lovely doe. I wish his dam looked as good as she does!


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

LadySecret said:


> Most of her kids are for less. Just the bucklings that inherit milking stars and kids with 5 or 6 permanent champions in their first two generations sell that high or a little higher... Last time I counted she had around 200 breeding animals in her herd. So annual herd testing would be quite expensive. From a breeders perspective, I can understand spot checking. But from a buyers perspective, I want to buy from an annually tested clean herd. This is so frustrating!


It doesn't really matter how many she has. If she is charging that much for them, they could be tested. (She has more, she sells more, makes more.) Also, it looks like she has brought in a lot of new animals or lines. That would raise the disease risk.
She obviously has some very nice animals, but the more animals there are, the more risk of disease transmission unless you are very rigorous with testing and treating. The other thing is, how can someone say that they don't have CAE in the herd if they don't test all the animals?
The more that people insist on it, the more testing will be done.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Ok here is option 5: He is also from prairie wood but his dam was recently tested for CAE and Johnes. He has the same sire as option 1. He will inherit milking stars in AGS and ADGA. I forgot to add that he is a triplet.









Dam: she milked over 5 lbs on her one day test.








Sire's dam


----------



## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

It would be nice if they were posed better...sire's dam's udder looks okay; dam's could have better height. Hard to see the posture of the dam and the kid at that angle, whether they dip behind the chine.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Not a big fan of that ones dam... She too is lacking rear udder height... And her body isn't the best either...

I feel your frustration though!  I went through it when I was getting my first bucks... Makes you want to pull your hair out! :lol:


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Goat_in_Himmel said:


> It would be nice if they were posed better...sire's dam's udder looks okay; dam's could have better height. Hard to see the posture of the dam and the kid at that angle, whether they dip behind the chine.


I agree with you. That's the only picture they have of her and originally I decided not to consider her bucking because I couldn't tell a lot from the picture.



J.O.Y. Farm said:


> Not a big fan of that ones dam... She too is lacking rear udder height... And her body isn't the best either...
> 
> I feel your frustration though!  I went through it when I was getting my first bucks... Makes you want to pull your hair out! :lol:


Thanks! I really appreciate all of your advice. The buck has such a huge impact on the future of a herd, I'm really stressing out over it.


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I like 1...........


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I know what you mean! I've had three ND bucks... Used them all once last year and sold two and kept one of them.. 
Any other local farms you like? Or ones you are willing to ship in from? I know someone in Utah that has some nice does  I could PM you their link of you like


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> I know what you mean! I've had three ND bucks... Used them all once last year and sold two and kept one of them..
> Any other local farms you like? Or ones you are willing to ship in from? I know someone in Utah that has some nice does  I could PM you their link of you like


That's a good point. For the amount of money you are considering, you could probably get a great buck elsewhere and have it shipped for the same total price. There have been some real nice goats advertised on this site at various times. You may have to be patient though and keep looking until you find exactly what you want.


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

I like 1's udder but not her topline. CAE isn't real likely to spread from a buck, but if he had it you'd probably want to keep him separate and that would be a hassle. 

If the breeder has 200 goats, yeah, it might cost $1000 for CAE testing or $4000 for someplace like WADDL to do CL and Johnes too, but they only have to sell 7 goats at $600 to recoup $4000.

Nigerians are the easest size to ship!


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> I know what you mean! I've had three ND bucks... Used them all once last year and sold two and kept one of them..
> Any other local farms you like? Or ones you are willing to ship in from? I know someone in Utah that has some nice does  I could PM you their link of you like


Feel free to pm me the link.  I'm trying to avoid shipping but that may be the best option.


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Update: So after having a long talk with my BF, we decided not to buy any of the buck kids since the ones we really liked were out of dams that haven't been recently tested for CAE and/or Johnes. We don't like Polly enough to spend that much on her buckling. We also decided not to ship kids at this time. My BF had a bad experience with shipping animals and is a little too leery to try again right now. We decided to buy the buffalo clover buck since he was tested clean in January and was reasonable priced. He's not perfect but I do think he will improve on some of my does faults and hopefully won't make anything worse. We don't show but we do want to breed better animals every generation. On the plus side, he is a really sweet tempered guy. When we got him home I noticed he had a runny nose and cough. He took the meds like a champ! He was so easy to doctor. My other buck is a total drama queen about that stuff. So it's nice to have such an easy and mellow guy for a change. He's almost completely over his illness now. He's also getting along really well with my other buck. I've caught them sleeping together a few times. I think we made the right choice. I wanted to thank everyone for their advice (even if we didn't take it). We've just decided that biosecurity is more important that getting the best udder buck right now. And you guys really helped me with what to look for in a udder for future buck shopping. Thanks again!


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Congrats on your new boy!!  
In the end, you have to do what is best for you and your herd, not what everyone else thinks you should do


----------



## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

If he is able to improve on some of your does' faults (which is why you're getting him), AND is a happy camper into the bargain, there is a great deal to be said for peace in the herd. I'm glad he's fitting in, and hope he passes on his nice temperament as well.


----------

