# New ABGA breeding rule- Unregistered bucks



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Hey everyone, 

I'm assuming everyone has read the new breeding reciprocal by the ABGA to allow unregistered bucks to cover FB does and have showable kids out of the breeding. This is only doe kids, correct? 

What does everyone think of it? 

I personally see it as a good thing. I know most people, or at least those who are vocal on facebook, don't care for it so let me explain my stance. 1. It would allow wether bucks to be used. These bucks have tremendous levelness and hip structure that is die for as well a degree of muscling that the ABGA could certainly use. They also focus on a higher muscle to fat ratio and may actually keep some of our show does from getting gobby fat. 2. Yes, they are a slower maturing line but is that really a bad thing? In dogs, too fast of a growth rate equates to other health and joint issues. This could help some of those poorer structured animals continue a longer production life. 3. We already do it with FB bucks over unregistered does... so why not the other way? Genetics are basically the same either way. 4. It opens a wider gene pool to select from. Alot of the times line breeding emphasizes bad traits within a line. It can be hard to breed them out by bringing in new, untouched blood you'll be less likely to repeat those negative traits. and 5. With this new thing it will make breeders less likely to sell inferior bucks. I've seen so many saying they won't sell commercial bucks anymore because of this. So in the end it could really help improve the genetics and make people more apt to cull goats that need to be culled. 

Ok I'm done. Thoughts? why its good or bad? I wont judge


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## CAjerseychick (Sep 21, 2013)

Just starting out and curious about this as well (we are getting a registered buck ).. do you mean by FB-- full blood? (and registered I am guessing?)....
It makes sense to me, to allow for registration both ways-- 50% is 50% as you said (having one parent registered, shouldnt matter mom or dad)....

Oh I am seeing this is about Boer goats, really new to this, am guessing its different for Minature Dairy goats which is what we have...


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I didn't see that change yet, but I think its cool. I was just complaining the other day about "What difference does it make if its a fullblood doe and a % buck, or the other way around? Its no different, you still get the same percentage kids."

I think it's good for a few reasons as well

1) Sound structure can be introduced from bucks that are not fullblood or purebred. I believe this is going to correct a ton of the bad toplines out there, along with slowing the growth rate so their forming skeletons don't break down before they are even breeding age. (Unless they are crossed with dairy lines, then they will grow very fast)

2) Milk production can be added to lines with poor production, equalling does that can raise their kids better, and kids that are healthier

3) This can introduce a LOT more color for the people that only raise colored Boers

4) Vast outcrossing. Even with outcrossing, people can still use superior genetic bucks or does from a different breed. 
The downside to this this that I see is loosing some of the type in Boers, they may loose some ear length, and such, but I think it's worth it to have a sound and functional animal.

5) In some areas a non papered buck is all you can find, so if people have fullblood does, they can still work their way up to American status.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Great points Dani.
It _is_ kind of discriminate, to only accept reg bucks over does.
My take on it is the unfair though legal showing of %s, which is already practiced.
I know of someone who wont show her %s because of this.
Take a registered FB doe & put her in with an unregistered FB buck. Voila, FBs shown as %.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

In some cases (like you mentioned Dani) with a un-reg wether buck, I think it would be great... But I can also see someone breeding down by getting a % buck who passes on some dairy characteristics like different horns/ears/head on to their entire herd. That's what would worry me. Your buck is an enormous part of your herd, and if somebody get's a % buck and doesn't really know what they are doing, they could mess up what could have been a good thing real quick. If they had gotten a FB/PB buck, they would have a better chance of breeding up and have those Boer characteristics still there.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

All very good points! I guess I see more positives than negatives. Most people who are not experienced and haven't researched breeds and such wouldn't know what the ABGA rule changes do anyway. I don't think ear length, horn set or other things will be dramatically impacte d because so many breeders are devoted to the breed staying the same. Its not any worse than those people producing poor structured, light muscled and small framed goats and calling them boers because they have a red head and white body.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Exactly! By the time you're at purebred status, the changes wouldn't be that different than what you already see in PB boers, most of the PB colored bucks have Nubian in their bloodlines (giving them the color, while keeping the nose), and a Nubian IS a dairy breed. And some of the "fullblood" Boers out there do not have the tradtional horns or face. Just because the papers say they are this or that, doesnt exactly mean they are. Some people are terrible and will claim they are what they say they are to make more money.
I've seen a lot of straight faced FB boers, and I seen a lot of boers with questionable horns.

But no matter what way you look at it, a percentage boer is a percentage boer, it doesnt matter if its from the buck or the doe. You can still loose a lot of the boer traits by using a FB buck on a percentage doe, just like you can the other way around.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

CAjerseychick said:


> Just starting out and curious about this as well (we are getting a registered buck ).. do you mean by FB-- full blood? (and registered I am guessing?)....
> It makes sense to me, to allow for registration both ways-- 50% is 50% as you said (having one parent registered, shouldnt matter mom or dad)....
> 
> Oh I am seeing this is about Boer goats, really new to this, am guessing its different for Minature Dairy goats which is what we have...


Yes this all registered boer stuff. FB is fullblood and registered when I say it. To some it just means full boer and may not be registered.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> But by the time you're at purebred status, the changes wouldn't be that different than what you already see in PB boers, most of the PB colored bucks have Nubian in their bloodlines (giving them the color, while keeping the nose), and a Nubian IS a dairy breed. And some of the "fullblood" Boers out there do not have the tradtional horns or face. Just because the papers say they are this or that, doesnt exactly mean they are. Some people are terrible and will claim they are what they say they are to make more money.
> I've seen a lot of straight faced FB boers, and I seen a lot of boers with questionable horns.
> 
> But no matter what way you look at it, a percentage boer is a percentage boer, it doesnt matter if its from the buck or the doe. You can still loose a lot of the boer traits by using a FB buck on a percentage doe, just like you can the other way around.


Exactly! I hate seeing "boers" that look dairy. We are producing meat goats first and foremost so let's at least maintain breed standard and produce better goats with each breeding. Improvement is always key and should be the goal of all breeders


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Dani-1995 said:


> Exactly! I hate seeing "boers" that look dairy. We are producing meat goats first and foremost so let's at least maintain breed standard and produce better goats with each breeding. Improvement is always key and should be the goal of all breeders


I agree!

Seems to me like the majority of % bucks out there (= un-registered bucks) are not as nice as the FB/PB bucks... so I'm just worried people are going to use those bucks and drag down the Boer breed standard look much faster than just using a un-reg doe here and there and breeding her to a FB buck...


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I dont think that will be the case. So many breeders have said already that if its not registered buck quality or can't be registered then they will be wethering. No more commercial bucks it looks like... at least not from a lot of breeders.


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## SunnydaleBoers (Jul 28, 2012)

Dani-1995 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I'm assuming everyone has read the new breeding reciprocal by the ABGA to allow unregistered bucks to cover FB does and have showable kids out of the breeding. This is only doe kids, correct?
> 
> What does everyone think of it?


Overall I think it's a good thing too- although cynical old me thinks it's ultimately probably a marketing ploy to bring some of the show wether dollars back into the fold.

While I can understand the concerns about an unregistered buck introducing less than ideal genes, I can also see ABGA breeders quite literally breeding themselves into a corner if the gene pool isn't made a little deeper (especially since we all seem to love lining up to breed to the same "IT" buck year after year- how many of you have Smoking Hot Ruger or Luger/Cuger or AK-47 daughters out there? *raises hand*). Look at what happened with the Impressive genes in the quarter horse industry- I don't think it's unreasonable to think something similar could develop with boers.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Did they actually pass it? I thought they were just talking about it. Anyway, it doesn't bother me any. It can already be done the way it is now though, it just takes two generations. Also, it's not just the wether breeding that could benefit. The color people could take advantage too. Take a look at that one buck Bon Joli has, he is gorgeous, but is not properly ABGA registered. 

Dani, Have you looked at the Able Acres website lately and looked at those new bucks? What do you think of HBS Absolute? Is there not *any* FB bucks that are top notch wether sires? Or capable of being? They all came from Africa. I understand the Ibex influence, but I don't think the wether bucks selling for big money are a very high percent Ibex. It looks to me like AABG is trying "to do both".


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

*Outcross*

I like outcrosses myself. Here is a buckling Kevin Mock owns 1/2 interest in.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I think it's all for increased revenue.


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

The wether producers do not need the ABGA to track their lines. The ABGA needs the wether producers for revenue.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> Did they actually pass it? I thought they were just talking about it. Anyway, it doesn't bother me any. It can already be done the way it is now though, it just takes two generations. Also, it's not just the wether breeding that could benefit. The color people could take advantage too. Take a look at that one buck Bon Joli has, he is gorgeous, but is not properly ABGA registered.
> 
> Dani, Have you looked at the Able Acres website lately and looked at those new bucks? What do you think of HBS Absolute? Is there not *any* FB bucks that are top notch wether sires? Or capable of being? They all came from Africa. I understand the Ibex influence, but I don't think the wether bucks selling for big money are a very high percent Ibex. It looks to me like AABG is trying "to do both".


The fullblood sires can certainly bting a lot to the table for wethers. The issues comes to holding a wether at 85lbs for 6 or 7 months. The majority of fullblood sires are bred to continue a fast growth rate. I personally love that buck... he's beautiful and i would certainly consider him.

I used a fullblood over a wether/commercial doe to increase growth rate but this particular buck is also bery flashy and pretty. He produced a national champion wether already so yeah they'll work if paired right and growth rate is taken into consideration as well as when you want them ready.

I don't know if it has been passed. I'm not a member yet.. waiting until january


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

GTAllen said:


> I like outcrosses myself. Here is a buckling Kevin Mock owns 1/2 interest in.


Love this buck! I want to see muscle definition like this in all of our breeding stock. We need it to keep boers as meat animals


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It spooks me a bit, to go that route, with a non registered buck to registered Doe. 
I agree, that the impact of a buck is more than the Doe. 
Lucky for me, I only have FB registered boer and do not have to worry about it, but, I for one do not agree.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I believe they did pass it, is in their bylaws and rules on their website.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

He looks high percentage to FB Boer to me. Not saying he doesn't look different from the ABGA bucks at Nationals. I think we should keep in mind if it's true that papers don't make the goat, they don't condemn the goat either. Ha.



GTAllen said:


> I like outcrosses myself. Here is a buckling Kevin Mock owns 1/2 interest in.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> He looks high percentage to FB Boer to me. Not saying he doesn't look different from the ABGA bucks at Nationals. I think we should keep in mind if it's true that papers don't make the goat, they don't condemn the goat either. Ha.


Very true on the papers! I can see this buck having some other influence but since papers don't matter we'll never know. I do agree that is very % boer at the least


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

Of course he is a very high precentage boer with most likely a little ibex X nubian mixed in. Through very selective breeding are animals like this produced. If his family tree was available, I am suspect there are some ABGA animals in it or could be #'ed. 

My question is if I breed to something like this and then have % does that are eligible for the ABGA % doe class what have I gained? I suspect nothing and all I have is a doe that is not worth much either way. I haven't seen hardly any wether maker does or true % does, that are going to be do much against the so called % doe class. And we all know the vast majority of the "% does" are really 100% boer, the ones that win anyways. 

This move to bring in more paper for the ABGA I think may lead to them being the solo game in town.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

GTAllen said:


> Through very selective breeding are animals like this produced. If his family tree was available, I am suspect there are some ABGA animals in it or could be #'ed.
> My question is if I breed to something like this and then have % does that are eligible for the ABGA % doe class what have I gained? I suspect nothing and all I have is a doe that is not worth much either way. I haven't seen hardly any wether maker does or true % does, that are going to be do much against the so called % doe class. And we all know the vast majority of the "% does" are really 100% boer, the ones that win anyways. .


 I understand the very selective breeding thing, but we all have the ability to do that. It takes time of course, but every breeder started somewhere. I think I disagree with you somewhat in that I believe, for instance, a buck like the one in the picture could add some things to someone's Program, whatever that is. Hypothetically at this point, I'm considering selecting a few of my slower growing, yet realistically similar to the "wether does" I saw in the videos you sent a month ago and breeding them to wether style bucks. Theoretically, I think I could be somewhat close in two generations of breeding to such bucks. Papered, not papered, whatever. That's not the point. Though there is some security if you can paper them. I'm not talking about trying to build a better ABGA breeding stock goat entirely. I'd like to be able to sell wethers that can win any show they go to up here in the NW. With that said, people are already incorporating some of those wether genetics into their ABGA show program and winning. That is if Schaffer and RAFF etc. are considered wether breeding.... If you know what I mean. Sorry about the book.


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

Joe Teel's son Noah has been using some of his ABGA bucks over 900 does and getting some results. Which is the reverse of what this is about, but in my opinion I would use a good buck like this little one over high quality breed does. The problem you might get in is the shoulders of the breed stock does and wether maker does is pretty different.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

GTAllen said:


> Joe Teel's son Noah has been using some of his ABGA bucks over 900 does and getting some results. Which is the reverse of what this is about, but in my opinion I would use a good buck like this little one over high quality breed does. The problem you might get in is the shoulders of the breed stock does and wether maker does is pretty different.


I personally prefer wether stock shoulders. I see too many show does with big loose shoulders. I have one of those does actually and it drives me crazy. I love the Teels goats... they're a little different, just enough to really stand out, but still conform to the type.

I have a double bred Tattoo (her sire is Texas Ink which is one of Glen Martins bucks) granddaughter that is bred to a Ripper son for February kids. Her dam was a commercial doe with very much unknown origins (appeared boer but who really knows!). We'll see what she has!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

GTAllen said:


> Joe Teel's son Noah has been using some of his ABGA bucks over 900 does and getting some results. Which is the reverse of what this is about, but in my opinion I would use a good buck like this little one over high quality breed does. The problem you might get in is the shoulders of the breed stock does and wether maker does is pretty different.


Nathan Duncan, (Larry probably in reality), has bred that HBS Absolute to some of their PDF Full Proof does and the people that have bought them are winning at ABGA shows. These are FBs. But again, I'm not trying to say the wether breeding is going to become the key to winning at an ABGA show. I'm suggesting it as proof that a good goat is a good goat and you can add things to your herd by using bucks displaying characteristics you want to improve on. *IF* I had a friend who bought that buck in the picture (I'm assuming he doesn't have ABGA papers) and offered me the chance to breed a couple of does to him at a reasonable price, I would breed one doe to him this year and two or three next year with the hope it might jump start me in the wether business. The progress I've seen using AI and Other breeders' best bucks has been very encouraging with my show goats. I see no reason to believe you couldn't make similar progress in the wether game.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree, a good goat is a good goat regardless of paperd or no papers. The general design of a meat goat should always be about the same with few variations. Wide based, heavy muscled, sound structured and enough volume to carry babies and be easy fleshing should always be priorities no matter what type of meat goat you are breeding.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

You bet, I agree.  Boer farms are breeding these goats for the same purpose, whether we are making wethers or producing show stock, these are meat goats and that's what we are all breeding for (whether we eat them or not!)


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Ditto!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

Personally, I think that if it's ok for a registered buck to breed a grade doe and have the doe kids be registered (recorded) then it should be the oposite also. Registered is registered, whether it be doe or buck. Whats good for one should be good for the other. I feel it's major discrimination to have it one way and not the other. Genetics are genetics, no matter the sex.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

lottsagoats said:


> Personally, I think that if it's ok for a registered buck to breed a grade doe and have the doe kids be registered (recorded) then it should be the oposite also. Registered is registered, whether it be doe or buck. Whats good for one should be good for the other. I feel it's major discrimination to have it one way and not the other. Genetics are genetics, no matter the sex.


I disagree, it is not a matter of discrimination, it is that the buck throws most of the influence on the kids. Some bucks that are bred up, may show more of nubian or whatever breed characteristics, in which, they throw dominance in, into the offspring. It is a matter of boer breed character, not discrimination. There may be bad outcomes and there may be good, however, it isn't something to be modified, when the system is working the way it is. We have already tinkered to much with bringing in the new style boer and found issues with them.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Pam I like your statement, "It's a matter of Boer breed character not of discrimination."


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thank Nancy d


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

I wish ABGA would would let you breed up to fullblood. I don't like that a goat can't get higher than 99%. I mean if you breed a fullblood to one that's 99% why shouldn't the kids be registered fullblood?


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## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

> Genetics are genetics, no matter the sex.


Not true. You are looking at it strictly as a 50/50 crossover ratio when it is not the case. Lots of things are sex linked, male/female dominant or downright mathematically improbable.

Not to mention that a buck can influence WAY more kids genetically in a lifetime than a doe ever will, even in one kidding season.

That is the only thing I will say on this issue.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

chelsboers said:


> I wish ABGA would would let you breed up to fullblood. I don't like that a goat can't get higher than 99%. I mean if you breed a fullblood to one that's 99% why shouldn't the kids be registered fullblood?


I had a doe who was 99.63% Boer... that's what her papers said with the USBGA ! She has since moved on, but made me laugh!


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

I have some FB and % unreg does out of a USBGA buck I no longer have. What good does it do me to register them as % ABGA does? Both my bucks now are FB ABGA registered. So these does offspring will ABGA % does even though in reality most are FB.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

chelsboers said:


> I wish ABGA would would let you breed up to fullblood. I don't like that a goat can't get higher than 99%. I mean if you breed a fullblood to one that's 99% why shouldn't the kids be registered fullblood?


With the genetics starting out with another breed of goat, it is impossible to make them FB boer. A high percentage( Purebred) can never be FB boer.


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