# They STILL! have very pale lids, gums...!



## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Okay I'm starting a new thread on my goats ongoing copper? deficiency problem. Sigh; all of our goats have VERY pale eyelids and gums even though I gave them copper around 2 weeks ago or a little more -they're all pretty much the same- just slightly pink, and it's making me worried. They are acting normal, grazing, eating, stool and so on is totally normal as far as I can tell...
And they are getting better food to eat than ever before- here's our feeding ration:


In the morning the milkers each get: 2 pounds of alfalfa pellets and 
1/2 pound of grain
In the evening when we milk they get: 2 more pounds of alfalfa pellets, 
1 pound grain, and 1-2 cups of BOSS.
I've just started adding their mineral ration for the day into their evening meal by mixing it with diluted honey so it will stick to the food, plus a little dolomite powder.


I started doing that because they were not eating the minerals on their own.


The 4 3 month old doelings and my Nigerian doe get 2pounds of alfalfa and maybe 4 cups of BOSS a day, plus a little grain for the doelings.


The bucks get basically the same thing as the doelings.


I just got some Thorvin kelp- it arrived in the mail today- I hear its good for iodine def.? if those of you that use it could tell me how much I should give them a day, I'd appreciate it.



Oh, and I almost forgot to say that they were dewormed about a month or so ago, and treated with Corid for cocci. I have not had fecals done again, but I thought it was too soon for it to be wormload already? So I have not dewormed since then.
Their coats are getting glossier, and the ND does hair -which was almost entirely rust colored (she's almost pure black) has turned almost all the way black again.


But in spite of all this, their lids and gums are pale! What am I missing? :shrug:


Sorry to write a book. :embarrassed:


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

I use the Thorvin kelp daily. I normally put out two good handfuls in the goat lots but I offer the kids a small handful (about the size of the dip in my palm) in the evenings to be sure they get some as the adults some times hog the mineral feeder. Basically kelp can be offered free choice (as my adults have free choice minerals and kelp) but as with anything new in a goats diet if they haven't had it before I normally start offering a little palm full every other day for about a week or two (depending on how your goat takes to it) and then go free choice. Thorvin kelp is really good for them. Just be sure if you leave it free choice that it stays clean and dry. That is why I just put out a little each day in case if it gets dirt or moister I can dump and not waste much. 

Hope this helps.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would have the fecal done just to rule it out..make sure to ask for the baerman test for those stubborn worms....

It takes time for a goat to rebuild red blood cells..and you are on the right track with mineral, copper bolusing, good feed program...as long as they are all healthy, happy eating drinking pooping berries peeing and getting glossy, the dont worry too much, just keep up the good work


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

When I don't feed kelp free choice I put a good sprinkle on their grain. Probably a Heaping Teaspoon. 

It can take a long frustrating time to get their iron stores back up. As long as 6 weeks in bad cases. Might also try throwing a couple vitamin B-12 chewables on their food for a few weeks. Anemia can also be Colbalt deficiency, B-12 can help with that.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thanks, guys! I'll be starting them on the kelp this evening.I'm frustrated with them for not eating their minerals when I put them out free choice, argh! But I think putting it in the food will work for a while, at least till I get some they will eat. 
Cathy, I have been wanting to do another fecal, just been so busy... Haven't had a chance to take the dog in for rabies shot either... Life is hectic sometimes.  Ill see if we can't do that this week.
I'm really grateful for the input- I will say again- I am so glad you guys (and this forum) are here!!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> I would have the fecal done just to rule it out..make sure to ask for the baerman test for those stubborn worms....


BTW, what's a "baerman" ?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Baerman techneque is a more indebth fecal, some worms deposit larve instead of eggs that can not be seen in a regular fecal exam, so the baerman looks for larve instead of eggs....Most vet office do not do them but have them sent out..when you are having a difficult time figuring out whats going on this test canhelp eliminate or highlight red flags here link to explianhow it works..
http://www.vcahospitals.com/main/pet-health-information/article/animal-health/fecal-baermann/314


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

When I get a goat that is very pale, I give them an iron injection every day for 3 days after I de-worm them. I have a major problem in my area in the summer months with live flukes, which can cause severe bleeding. I start right off with the injectable iron.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I think Liver fluke is real bad this year...and It can also cause bottle jaw..it is a slower process then Barpole and much harder to kick I think...Ive added giving copper bolus after a severe case of anemia....along with high protien food to help the body rebuild the red blood cells..is a long battle..but can be won : )

*I should have said I bolus after a case of anemia due to worm load..: ) the copper helps the goat fight worms as well..: ) 
here is an interested case:
http://www.goatspots.com/copper.html*


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Well, I guess I'll call the vet tomorrow and ask if they do the Baerman test... But I probably shouldn't give iron right now, should I? After giving the copper, or has it been long enough that it won't interfere?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

DDFN said:


> Hope this helps.


 Yes, it did help, thanks!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

good question Sarah..how long has it been?? perhaps wait until you have a fecal done..see how the owrm load is..??


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> good question Sarah..how long has it been?? perhaps wait until you have a fecal done..see how the owrm load is..??


'K I just looked at my records; it's been 5 weeks since I dewormed them, 2 and 1/2 since the copper...
I'm hoping maybe Monday we can get fecals done again.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The Baerman test is for lung worm. Not a worry for you. The problem is that Liver Fluke and Barber Pole worms look almost exactly the same on the slide. If your vet does a fecal and oh well, you still have Barber Poles or Roundworm whatever he calls them...They are more than likely Liver Fluke NOT Barber Pole. 
If your interested in testing for Lungworm, I can show you how to do it yourself without an $80.00 test.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

goathiker said:


> The Baerman test is for lung worm. Not a worry for you. The problem is that Liver Fluke and Barber Pole worms look almost exactly the same on the slide. If your vet does a fecal and oh well, you still have Barber Poles or Roundworm whatever he calls them...They are more than likely Liver Fluke NOT Barber Pole.
> If your interested in testing for Lungworm, I can show you how to do it yourself without an $80.00 test.


Hehe.... well I don't think I'm ready to do my own testing yet; maybe someday- but thank you for offerring, really!
Yeah, I read that lung worms cause them to have a cough, and they're not coughing at all, so I guess that rules that out?
I don't know what our vet would normally charge for fecals, because they're really nice to us and sometimes they dock the price on things.
When we took in one sample it was $15, but when we did all of them, not sure but I don't think they charged us for it at all!- but they did for the rest of the visit, of course; wasn't free!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> The Baerman test is for lung worm.


good point


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## JanaY (Jun 25, 2013)

If worm load was bad it could have affected her iron levels. I would give red cell daily until color returns. I give 7cc to a 150lb goat. Adjust accordingly. Glad you made the mineral improvements.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well goathiker I sure would like to know how!!! 
Now this is what I have gathered from iron and worms, if Im wrong someone step up and correct me. Worms thrive on iron, so it would be a waist of time and energy to give right now till you make sure they are clean and your just not making those suckers happy in there. And yes it takes for ever for them to get back to normal, had one with bottle jaw, (my dear goathiker helped me  ) It took for ever to get her to atleast get that gone, and she is starting to look some what fat again after MONTHS!!!


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## JanaY (Jun 25, 2013)

I would think that it should be fine to give iron. I would give it orally a you are less likely to overdose. I know some prefer injection because it is faster acting. I guess its a preference thing. Raising red blood cell levels will help them to be able to fight of worms. Goats that are academic to long can develop heart problems. Within a couple days of red cell my goats looked markedly better and was finally able to fight off chemical resistant stronglyes. B vitamins shot would help too.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I have b complex shots; what is the dosage for that? I have quite a few different sized goats.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

B complex is 5-10 cc.....: ) its a good support


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> B complex is 5-10 cc.....: ) its a good support


I'm assuming 5-10 cc per goat, size doesn't matter?
I gave most of them a bit of molasses/electrolyte mix tonight. The bucks turned their noses up at it, as did a couple of the doelings, but the rest drank it quickly- though they weren't as CRAZY about it as they were last time I gave them some, right before I copper bolused- I hope that means they're doing better than before.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yes I would think its up to your discression on how much....not easy to over dose B complex : )


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Okay, I just got back from giving my first two shots- I didn't want to do any more tonight, it's getting dark and I'm not that confident yet. 
I gave b shots to one of the Alpines and my Nigerian doe. I hope I did it right! ray: 
I guess if they're still alive in the morning, I'll do the others, hehe.:roll:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

They'llbe fine...I hate giving shots too..but in the end they will feel better


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I am so frustrated right now! :GAAH: I called our vet, and they don't do any other worm tests. Just the old " look under a microscope; if there's worms, deworm 'em". They don't do the Baerman test.
I'm also frustrated because I was going to ask my dad to pick up some Red cell next time he went to town, and he went today and I didn't know! I thought he was just going to the smaller town nearby to mail a letter. It's just frustrating that it takes so long to get it right sometimes. Sigh.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Awe,,I understand your fustration...its 45 minutes to any major town from my place...to go grocery shopping takes me several hours....mostly driving and now my road is being worked on so we have to drive 12 miles out of the way lol..needless to say hubby gets a list several times a week for whats needed and he shops after work..( he works swing shift until 2 am!!) at least there are no lines at walmart lol. 
as for the fecal..as Goathiker reminded us..Lung worms are the only worm that needs the baerman method..if you goats arent showing signs of Lung worms, such as coughing..then I wouldnt worry too much about it..if you are concerned about liver fluke..then a regualar fecal will show that..but the egg looks very simualr to Barpole except the ends are more pointy while barpole is more rounded ,if I remember correctly..but either way..if you have a worm issue..choose Ivomec plus or Valbazen to cover all your basis..: )


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Jessica84 said:


> Well goathiker I sure would like to know how!!!
> QUOTE]
> 
> It's really simple. Fill a clear glass with warmish water. Take 5 or 6 goat berries, wrap them in a single layer of gauze and tie the top shut. Like a really disgusting hershy's kiss. Put the berry pack in to the water and let set for 6 hours.
> ...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> Awe,,I understand your fustration...its 45 minutes to any major town from my place...to go grocery shopping takes me several hours....mostly driving and now my road is being worked on so we have to drive 12 miles out of the way lol..needless to say hubby gets a list several times a week for whats needed and he shops after work..( he works swing shift until 2 am!!) at least there are no lines at walmart lol.
> as for the fecal..as Goathiker reminded us..Lung worms are the only worm that needs the baerman method..if you goats arent showing signs of Lung worms, such as coughing..then I wouldnt worry too much about it..if you are concerned about liver fluke..then a regualar fecal will show that..but the egg looks very simualr to Barpole except the ends are more pointy while barpole is more rounded ,if I remember correctly..but either way..if you have a worm issue..choose Ivomec plus or Valbazen to cover all your basis..: )


Now I feel like i was just being whiny.  the closest town with a Tractor Supply is only 20 minutes, but we only go when we really need to... They like to do most of the shopping in the larger towns, like SA where we sell.... And I guess I misunderstood a bit- I thought that the Baerman test was also for Liver Fluke and... Another one that I forgot the name of- lol, I can't keep track of all these different worms! I just hope we can get another fecal done soon, so I know if that's even a problem. I really want to get this mineral thing right.
I'm giving their minerals in their food to make sure they get it... We're feeding alfalfa, boss, two kinds of grain, kelp, dolomite for the milkers to help production - my dad even got a protein lick and a mineral drench trying to help out, lol. I didn't give it all at once, of course- I'm trying to do it all gradually- and I haven't used the mineral drench yet, but were really trying to get it right.
The girls are making it hard, though. They know how to avoid the minerals even when I coat them in honey and mix it into the grain. I check the bowl when their done, and there's this little pile of sticky minerals at the bottom every time, unless I add a LOT of honey, which I don't want to do, because its expensive.  
Sorry to rant, but I'm still a little worried about them.... I meant to ask if you really think I should give red cell or not. From what I've read, I think it wouldn't hurt, and I know it would make me feel better, but I'm not sure if that's really nessecary.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I didnt find you whiny at all.lol..I would go with your gut Sarah...if their eyes are pale and they feel better after..go for it..unless they are white lids, I wouldnt give it more than once a week....B complex is a better choice for a feel good vitamin..
Dont feel bad..I thought liver fluke needed the Braeman method too..lol..but so far I find only the lung worm..BUT goathiker gave the way to test for lung worm and its so easy..why pay high price for baerman : ) just pick up some gauze..

GoatHiker!! Thanks for shareing how to check for lung worms....how simple is that!!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That is a Baerman test. Only difference is that they suck up a few larvae and look at them under a microscope.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Only difference is that they suck up a few larvae


and suck more money from us for that lol..


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

NDlover said:


> Now I feel like i was just being whiny.


yes you're being whiny . at least you HAVE a tractor supply! i've got zero options for pretty much everything and no one (other than you guys) willing to help.

it's ok. whine away. sometimes we all just need a good whine and get it out of our system!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thanks, guys!I gave all the rest their b shots today- just got back from doing the bucks. I also gave them all more molasses today. I guess that will help a little until I get red cell... Maybe tomorrow; I think my dad's thinking of going somewhere to pick up a tractor implement. If I can just get him to stop at a TS store, and get my mom to take me to the vet with fecals....


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Oh, meant to say, I'm really sorry that you don't have many options for goat stuff, nchen! It sound like its really limited down there. I think you should pack your suitcases (with your goats!) and move!! :laugh:

And yes thanks to goathiker! I will keep that in mind for the future- how to test for lung worms, very handy, and so simple!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Oh, BTW, I looked at the FAMACHA chart on goat link again, and though I haven't checked ALL their lids, I checked most of them today, and they're all very close to the same- somewhere between borderline and dangerous.Just so you know what I mean when I say "pale".


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## JanaY (Jun 25, 2013)

Red cell is really important if there is Paleness. It is hard for them to fight the worms when they are anemic. Trust me, I just had to take a kid for a blood transfusion because she was so anemic and beyond red cell being able to do much. Red cell is much cheaper than a transfusion. I would give it everyday until you see better color. Good luck!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

JanaY said:


> Red cell is really important if there is Paleness. It is hard for them to fight the worms when they are anemic. Trust me, I just had to take a kid for a blood transfusion because she was so anemic and beyond red cell being able to do much. Red cell is much cheaper than a transfusion. I would give it everyday until you see better color. Good luck!


Thanks, and though I'm not positive, I don't really think its worms, but a mineral deficiency of some kind, but I want to get the fecals done again anyway just to be sure. And I'll give them the red cell just as soon as I get it!


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

NDlover said:


> Oh, meant to say, I'm really sorry that you don't have many options for goat stuff, nchen! It sound like its really limited down there. I think you should pack your suitcases (with your goats!) and move!! :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

July Fourth, I forgot.  No fecals today, and no red cell yet. I was wondering if I could stick the samples in the freezer to make it easier to do tomorrow? I think I heard you can do that.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

i'm not sure about goat poop, but I've done that for my dogs. I put my goat poop in the freezer when it's waiting to get to the vet.....


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Got red cell yesterday; found quite a few different opinions on dosage, so I went conservative (I think) and gave 5-6 cc's to the big girls, 2 1/2 to the Nigerians, and 2 to the kids. I'm not sure if I should give it once or twice a day...?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

i'm thinking once? red cell was mentioned in one of my threads....i think it's once a day. let me see if i can find it.

btw - two weeks after copper bolus, and i'm seeing a diff already. my black doe is looking more black and shiny, and my white doe has some colour coming into places that didn't have colour before. haven't had a chance to take any pictures.


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

nchen7 said:


> i'm thinking once? red cell was mentioned in one of my threads....i think it's once a day. let me see if i can find it.
> 
> btw - two weeks after copper bolus, and i'm seeing a diff already. my black doe is looking more black and shiny, and my white doe has some colour coming into places that didn't have colour before. haven't had a chance to take any pictures.


I've noticed the same thing with my girls too!! It's exciting isn't it?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

i can't find it..... but, if i remember correctly, i was giving 5cc's to my big girls 3x per week, then you can decrease to 2, then to 1 when you think they're ready.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

still said:


> I've noticed the same thing with my girls too!! It's exciting isn't it?


i'm really excited too!!! i'm interested to see what kind of colouring my white doe will end up having. she has one dark spot showing up at the end of her tail, and dark spots above her front knees. i mean, her colouring is already strange......wonder how strange it will end up being??


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

nchen7 said:


> i'm thinking once? red cell was mentioned in one of my threads....i think it's once a day. let me see if i can find it.
> 
> btw - two weeks after copper bolus, and i'm seeing a diff already. my black doe is looking more black and shiny, and my white doe has some colour coming into places that didn't have colour before. haven't had a chance to take any pictures.


Oh, yes I'm seeing lots of improvement too. I think they are looking better every day! They're getting glossy and shiny looking, and their hair is soft now, whereas it used to be rough. I'm sure that it's also because we've improved their diet as well, though. And were making sure that they get the minerals in their feed. So I'm not sure how much of the improvement I can attribute to the copper.

I just can't figure out this pale lids and gums thing. I'm probably just paranoid, but I almost think that they seemed paler today than yesterday!  I hope I'm doing right to give them red cell.

I haven't gotten another fecal done yet, as we had company this week and our weekends are very busy. If I couldn't get it done for some reason, should I go ahead and deworm again?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

deworming is your call..... i've noticed my girls have darkened membranes, which is a relief to me. and i haven't given red cell in a while.

if they're not exhibiting worminess, then maybe hold off and try red cell? red cell also has copper in it though, so you don't want to overdo the copper in their minerals plus copper in the red cell.....it maybe time to do some copper math or wait a little more and see what happens in the next week? but it's really your call.....

sorry, i konw that was conflicting....i was just thinking through my fingers....


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

It's okay, it's just confusing, all these minerals and such. I just want to do the right thing, I'm just not sure what it is at the moment.  I think I'll keep giving red cell and maybe give less minerals for a little while.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

ya.....it's hard figuring it all out! give iron for anaemia, but don't give too much or else it binds copper, but goats need copper as well....sulphur also not good in high doses, but all depends on your region..... makes my head spin!!!!

doesn't hurt to give red cell a try. if your goaties are as deficient as mine are, they probably could use the extra fast acting copper in their system and the extra iron for a boost.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I do red cell once a day for a week when eyes are very pale..then once a week fter that until I see color.. 6 cc per 100#


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## cheyenne (Aug 21, 2011)

Does anyone use the Pig Paste iron supplement? I got some from Hoeggers because I can't find Red Cell around here and to buy it online.. well the shipping is outrageous! (The extra 'freight' thing). Not getting much work right now so have to watch every penny. 

A couple of my girls are pale too. I had a fecal done not too long ago and the vet told me my goats had the cleanest goat poop he's ever seen! I have used Molly's Herbal wormer on them for over a year. He thought they might be pale because of external parasites. I am having problems finding something to use on them that I don't have to wear a haz-mat outfit just to apply it. He told me NOT to use Python Dust. 

He told me to use citronella on them. He wasn't sure the name of the fly spray (for horses) he thought it was Bronco, but wasn't sure. Also I ordered some citronella spray from Hoeggers. 

I have been using Molly's Shoo-Fly spray on them and also dusted them with DE. Anyway, I have the pig paste and wondered if anyone knows how much to use??? It doesn't have ANY instructions for goats on it!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Okay someone tell me how much iron is in the Red Cell and tell me how much is in the pig paste. I'm sure we can figure it out.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

*Red Cell*
Iron (Fe)

9,400 ppm

4,250.0 mg

300 mg

Copper (Cu)

1,100 ppm

500.0 mg

36 mg

Cobalt (Co)

60 ppm

28.0 mg

2 mg

Potassium (K)

0.31%

1,400.0 mg

100 mg

Sulfur (S) 0.9%

0.78%

3,550.0 mg

250 mg

Magnesium (Mg)

0.06%

280.0 mg

20 mg

Manganese (Mn)

1,200 ppm

540.0 mg

39 mg

Zinc (Zn)

3,400 ppm

1,540.0 mg

110 mg

Iodine (I)

8 ppm

3.6 mg

0.25 mg

Selenium (Se)

20 ppm

9.0 mg

0.65 mg

Vitamin A

356,923.0 I.U.

25,000 I.U.

Vitamin D-3

49,969.0 I.U.

3,500 I.U.

Vitamin E

500.0 I.U.

35 I.U.

Vitamin B12

1,680 mcg

120 mcg

Thiamine

428.0 mg

30 mg

Riboflavin

356.0 mg

25 mg

Vitamin B6

114.0 mg

8 mg

Menadione

35.0 mg

2.5 mg

Folic Acid

100.0 mg

7 mg

Biotin

0.285 mg

0.020 mg

Choline

2,855 mg

200 mg

d-Pantothenic Acid

685.0 mg

*Star-Labs Pig Paste with iron (100 mg of chelated iron per ml)*
Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product dehydrated, Lactobacillus casei fermentation product dehydrated, Bifidobacterium thermophilum fermentation product dehydrated, Streptococcus faecium fermentation product dehydrated, Iron choline citrate, Copper choline citrate and Cobalt choline citrate, Vitamin A supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, and Vitamin B12 supplement.

Guaranteed Analysis:

Ingredient	Units per cc
Vitamin A (min.)	9,500 I.U.
Vitamin D3 (min.)	2,000 I.U.
Vitamin E (min.)	5 I.U.
Vitamin B12 (min.)	5 Mcg.
1.0 x 106 C.F.U. per gram
Equals numbers of each microorganism listed in the ingredients.
Directions For Use

Administer one cc orally at or within 24 hours after birth.
Administer one cc orally at 10 to 14 days of age.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Don't tell me you typed all that, Cathy! That would take forever! You're always on top of it- I was about to go look up the iron content on the red cell bottle we got, and I scroll down a little more and you've got every ingredient!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

LOL..Copy and Paste


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## cheyenne (Aug 21, 2011)

goathiker said:


> Okay someone tell me how much iron is in the Red Cell and tell me how much is in the pig paste. I'm sure we can figure it out.


Was anyone able to figure this out on the Pig Paste? I sure can't make heads or tails out of it!

I did find a gallon of Red Cell online at our local farm supply store... it's $19.99 a gal there and they have *one* bottle of it.

If nobody can figure this out or has never used the Pig paste, I guess I'll go buy the Red Cell. I won't be able to get there till the end of the week however...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I don't even know how to figure it out ! Sorry.
No fair, red cell here was like 25 dollars a gallon! And I didn't need anywhere near that much!


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## cheyenne (Aug 21, 2011)

NDlover said:


> I don't even know how to figure it out ! Sorry.
> No fair, red cell here was like 25 dollars a gallon! And I didn't need anywhere near that much!


Ouch! I thought $19.99 was bad!!! I just can't believe the cost of everything these days! My luck I'll go there to buy it and someone else will have gotten it and then they'll tell me they have to order it... usually the way things happen around here. lol


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Red cell is 

Iron (Fe)
9,400 ppm
4,250.0 mg
300 mg

pig paste is
iron (100 mg of chelated iron per ml)

Looks like Red cell offers more Iron at 300MG than Pig paste at 100MG...
not sure that chelated iron is lol...hoepfully someone will pop on with an answer


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

we use chelated iron in our garden and aquaponics.....not sure what that means tho.......


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Chleated means that it's been processed to be more available to the animal, plant, etc. So I would dose the pig paste at 2 times the pig dose. This should get her started until you can get the Red Cell.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Some how i knew Goathiker would know


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## cheyenne (Aug 21, 2011)

I got the Red Cell!!!! Yay!!! 

So someone on this thread said to give 6cc orally per 100#? Is this right? Once a day?

I'm not sure how much she weighs but have a goat weight tape. How accurate are those?


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## ogfabby (Jan 3, 2013)

I do a 15 cc loading dose then 6 cc every other day until color returns to normal


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I've been trying to remember dosages and feed rations and such so much the last week or two, that I totally forgot it was 6cc's per 100 lbs! I was giving my Alpines 5 cc's each per day. I guess less is better than more. :shrug:

I was actually going to ask if anyone knows if red cell can cause runny stool? Suddenly today my doelings had scours, I don't know why. The only thing they've had that's different is a little more feed and red cell. I don't think the older goats had a problem, though theirs was a little sloppy yesterday. Any thoughts?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes 6 cc per 100#..I use a tape measure method..its gets you close to their weight.

As for giving the runs..Ihave never had it happen, but too much and anything can upset the rumen...so I suppose its possible..or could be the extra feed..try skipping her grain ration until she is back to berries If it is watery poo, give cd antitoxin as well..


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## cheyenne (Aug 21, 2011)

My two nursing moms are having clumpy poops too. I haven't given them any Red Cell yet... I think they got clumpy because I started giving just those two more feed, maybe I increased too fast or too much. They also have a nice big pasture to graze with lots of grass but have stripped all the leaves they can reach from any trees or shrubs.

Lily has triplets and looks too thin to me. Violet has twins. Violet doesn't look thin, but I thought she might need a few extra calories. I have cut them both back on the feed when I noticed them doing this.

I don't think it's worms but I'm going to give them an extra 3 day double dose of Molly's wormer. I'm also going to get another fecal done too to include cocci.... I don't think it's that, but better safe than sorry.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

They seemed to be drying up this evening when I checked on them... I just keep racking my brains trying to think what could've caused it... :scratch: I have been feeding the young does and Ella (my ND doe, they are in the same pen) their minerals and kelp just by hand since they won't eat it when I leave it out, and yesterday I thought they ate a bit more than usual - could that have caused runs?
Today they were less interested in them.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

a little too much graze...a bit too much mineral...I woudnt worry too much as long as they are firming up : )


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## cheyenne (Aug 21, 2011)

Stupid question #542..... a cc is actually a ml right? My drench gun is in ml... so 15 cc is 15 ml?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

^^yes it is. The same that is, NOT yes it's a stupid question! :laugh:


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## cheyenne (Aug 21, 2011)

NDlover said:


> ^^yes it is. The same that is, NOT yes it's a stupid question! :laugh:


 LOL Thanks!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Ok, we got the fecals done today! Finally! They were all pretty clean, he said, except for the three milk does, the Alpines. They had some worms (he didn't say what kind), and some cocci. WHICH is because they are in a pen alone, and it happens to be the only pen with short grass that they can eat, and they do. (Argh)
I thought when that grass started growing that they wouldn't eat it, since it gets dirty - I mean, they don't normally eat anything dirty at all- but they are determined to nibble on it every day. And we really can't afford to make them bigger pens to graze in, so looks like well just have to deworm more often.
I hate having them in small pens, but that's all we can do right now. 


I'm starting them on Dimethox tonight, and they're getting wormer as well. He said the others were okay, so I think I'll wait a while to deworm them. No sense doing it if it's not needed.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Cathy, I was wondering: do you think I should give red cell for a few more days since I didn't give enough at first? It's been a week, but I only gave the proper dose today....


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

where are they on the anemia chart color wise?..I stop red cell once I see color so the goat has to do the rest...as long as they are strong, eating drinking and so forth..and because Im paranoid lol..I check their eye lids every few days to be sure they continue to improve..I can always start red cell up again if they arent improving


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

They're still really pale. One of the doelings is pinker than all the rest, IDK why, but the others are pale, especially the milkers and Ella. I was thinking they were paler maybe because they've had more stress on their systems? Ella being pregnant, and the others being milked.The Hoegger lady I talked to today -about the wormer I got from them- was very nice and helpful, and we got to talking about this, and she said it can take up to 30 days to see improvement after giving red cell. I didn't really think about it before, but that's longer than I would've expected. I'm glad she said that, though, 'cause if it does take that long, I won't be freaking out so bad. 


I'm thinking I'll give it for a few more days to the ones that need it most, then once a week like you said.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yes...it takes someitmes even longer than 30 days to see that super deep pink..but as long as they are making progress they are good : ) I think you have a good plan there with red cell...: ) 
have you ever copied the famanch chart and held it up to the eyes of your goats..keep in mind printers can print lighter or darker, but it gives you a score to record....You can copy it right from goat-link.com web sight..its a good idea to record like if goat "A" scores a 3 on the chart and next time you go out with the same chart she scores a 4 you know something is up..but if she scores a 2 then you know she is improving..hard to keep track of a group without some kind of record....my memory is not that good lol..


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I haven't printed it, I just went looked at it, then compared by memory, lol. It would be better to print it. I'll try to remember to do that, thanks.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Still haven't printed it; too many things going on, I forgot!  

I'm still a bit worried about the pale lids- none of them seem to have improved at all except one doeling. Hers weren't quite as bad to begin with though. :shrug: 


Most of them I would say (not %100 sure) are at the dangerous level on the FAMACHA chart, and poor little Ella's are almost completely white still!  I gave them all red call for over a week, and I inagined i was beginning to see improvement, but now theyre as bad as ever. I just gave them a dose today, as its been a week since I stopped.


I know it can take while, but I'm still worried about them.
I read that stomach worms can cause anemia, as well as johnes disease, but johnes int supposed to affect goats under 2 years of age, so it doesn't make sense that all of them would have that going on. And the wormer I last used is supposed to kill stomach worms. :question:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You really need that fecal done. They can have multiple types of worms so you need to know what parasites you are dealing with. You may end up with needing to give multiple dewormers to take care of everything.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Certain onion-type plants can cause anemia..got anything growing where the goats can get to? 

Some goats just have naturally pale eyes...as long as everything was ruled out, If they look great other wise..eating drinking pooping berries, peeing, bight eyed and alert AND FECAL came back clean, no internal injury, no iron sucking onions in their diet....but still have pale color...then snap a pic of the color and keep notes her "normal" color..for future reference..
Have fecals done 3 times week apart to rule out worms..since eggs are dropped in cycles..: )


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

We did get a fecal done about a week ago. They didn't say what kind of worms there were - IDK, but I think maybe they're used to dealing with people some might term "hicks", so they don't usually give a lot of detail :/
But they just said that they saw "some worms and some coccidia, but not enough to worry about" on most of them, and on the three milkers(who are in their own pen), there was a significant amount of both worms and cocci, and we should probably go ahead and treat them again for both.
So I did, at least the three milkers. The others I thought I'd wait another week or two and then deworm again, because they look healthy, their coats aren't rough or anything.
And none of them are acting off, their stool is normal and everything, there just the pale lids. :shrug:


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I meant to add before that I now do strongly suspect some kind of worm if only because I don't think the young doelings have grown at all in the last month, even though they were treated for cocci, worms, copper, AND we've improved and increased their food. I'm trying to do this right, but it's frustratingly hard to find the problem. I'm thinking now that I should just get some Valbazen or ivermectin/ ivomec+ and forget trying to use the wormer I have. 
Three times in a week for fecals? That seems like it could get expensive very fast.  do don't know if my dad would even let me do that; I mean, if it HAS to be done he would, but I don't think he would understand.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

That would be a fecal once a week for three weeks...: ) My vet told me you can have a clean fecal and a few days later it could be infested with eggs.because they shed eggs in cycles..so doing one fecal is not always going to show whats going on..Do the ones who are struggling with pale eyes and or condition..don't try to do everyone..and talk that vets ear off...let him know "you aint no hick" lol and need clear information for your records...write everything down..the worm eggs they found ,,how many , note eye color based on famancha chart..ex: "Daisy" Famancha score #2,...what your action was ..Ie: wormed no no wormer..and which wormer you used and how much..get a proper weight on your goats so your meds are dosed properly....under dosing is worse then not treating...so getting that weight is a smart thing to do..
Keep good records. re visit the famancha chart monthly while doing hooves ..update score, write condition...and action..
after about 6 months you will have a good idea of whose the worm bug and who just has pale color eyes and who has a strong resistance to worms...

each of my goats have their own health page where I write down everything on them..if they had a snotty nose..action took ,,when hooves were done, wormer..cd&t booster,,when they were bred and when they are due...when they kidded and what they had...and so forth : ) helps me keep up with everyone and not relying onmy memory


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I think she meant 3 times but once a week.

I would probably send a fecal off to a state lab or state university vet college to do a really good workup on. They do more than the quick fecal float that the local vets do.

Also, what dewormers did you use and at what dosages? 

Your little Nigerians probably can't handle even what would be considered a "normal" load. So if they come back with anything, I would treat them. I would also make sure to tell your vet that you want to know exactly what they found in the fecal. If you have the state lab do it, they should send you a written report with everything they find including amounts (at least the Ohio State Lab does that).


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> That would be a fecal once a week for three weeks...: )
> 
> ^^Sorry, read it too fast!
> 
> each of my goats have their own health page where I write down everything on them..if they had a snotty nose..action took ,,when hooves were done, wormer..cd&t booster,,when they were bred and when they are due...when they kidded and what they had...and so forth : ) helps me keep up with everyone and not relying onmy memory


Thanks for all the info...

That's a great idea, but I'm starting to wish we had less goats, lol! I do write down all the most important stuff on my "goat calendar", but I have yet to make individual records for each one. I guess having goats can be a science, lol! I feel a bit inadequate for the job.

I also just started, or am in the process of starting, to keep records of how much we are spending on feed, and such.

I'm the only one who does anything health-related with them, and I do have a lot of others things I could (or should) be doing. Sigh, I love them, but I wish all the time I spend taking care of them was just time spent being with them- hanging out or training them and stuff. 

I need to go milk right now....  Be back in a bit!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Don't over whelm..just start one goat at a time..once you have a system up and running..its easy to keep track..and it really helps if one gets ill and needs a vet..you just take their medical sheet with you and impress your vet..its amazing how much more they will share when they see that you know what you are talking about..


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> I think she meant 3 times but once a week.
> 
> I would probably send a fecal off to a state lab or state university vet college to do a really good workup on. They do more than the quick fecal float that the local vets do.
> 
> ...


I used Golden Blend Rumatel Goat Dewormer, sold by Hoegger (active ingredient Morantel Tartrate) I'd heard good things about it, but goathiker gave me a link on what species of worms it kills, and Liver Fluke I don't believe was among them, so right now I'm most concerned about those, as my goats shouldn't have had time to build up resistance yet- I've only used it once before.
The three milkers do have a bit of that hollow look that I've seen on here, when liver fluke was the problem, even though they eat tons, and one is always skinny- she is super picky though, and won't eat the proper amount.

Would it b expensive to send fecals to a state lab? And how would you ship?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> Don't over whelm..just start one goat at a time..once you have a system up and running..its easy to keep track..and it really helps if one gets ill and needs a vet..you just take their medical sheet with you and impress your vet..its amazing how much more they will share when they see that you know what you are talking about..


 Yes, lol, they already looked pretty surprised that I knew anything I think..  When I mentioned the other day that it was the usual thing to worm two to three times ten days apart he covered up that _he _didn't know what I was talking about by saying "there's a lot of different opinions on it". Then he said they always recommend changing the wormer every time, or at least every two to three times you use it. Lol.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> Certain onion-type plants can cause anemia..got anything growing where the goats can get to?


Forgot to answer this- no, they've been in their pens exclusively for quite a while; we bring them everything they eat.

And Karen on the dosage of the wormer-It's a medicated crumbly feed-type wormer, supposed to be 0.1 lbs per 100 lbs body weight.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That stuff really doesn't work. I would have a good fecal done and then once you know what you are dealing with, go from there.

I would honestly just throw out the crumble dewormer. It truly is worthless.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I'm surprised to hear that! I talked to the lady at Hoegger, and she said that they've had a lot of good feedback on it, and that I could go to their FB page to see the reviews. I also mentioned it on here, and one person had said that they know someone who uses it and it works great.But that's all I had to go on. 
If it doesn't work, I'd like to know why it's even made! It's just wrong to sell something that doesn't work to people who don't know any better.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Lots of things are made for animals that really aren't good for them. But the profits keep them on the market and that is all the companies care about.

Exactly which crumble are you using? I know for sure the stuff at TSC is junk. I'm not on Hoegger much so don't know what they sell.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

NDlover said:


> I used Golden Blend Rumatel Goat Dewormer, sold by Hoegger (active ingredient Morantel Tartrate) I'd heard good things about it, but goathiker gave me a link on what species of worms it kills, and Liver Fluke I don't believe was among them, so right now I'm most concerned about those, as my goats shouldn't have had time to build up resistance yet- I've only used it once before.
> The three milkers do have a bit of that hollow look that I've seen on here, when liver fluke was the problem, even though they eat tons, and one is always skinny- she is super picky though, and won't eat the proper amount.
> 
> Would it b expensive to send fecals to a state lab? And how would you ship?


I had posted this earlier^^
I'm still mad about that. I know everyone everywhere sells junk that's no good for anything even though its advertised to work wonders, but it's just so wrong!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Okay, I called the vet this morning- the receptionist or whatever you call the person that answers the phone- said that most of the goats still had some coccidia and strongyles. This is from about ten days ago when we did the fecals last. If she did tell me the egg count, she was talking kind of fast and I didn't catch it. I'm really not good on the phone, and I forgot to ask again. 
So the vet had told me that only the three older does had enough worms and cocci to treat again, but apparently I need to do all of them. 
I started gathering samples again this morning- I intend to do my own fluke test tonight. And after that I'll try to get them to do the fecal float again for all the goats, including the two new ones, which haven't been done yet.

Oh, and she (and the vet the other day) kept telling me that they recommend Cydectin to use. I was going to try to get Valbazen, but they don't sell it there, and I think that's why they're so intent on me using Cydectin.
I actually have some Cydectin right now, from the last time we used it.
Would y'll recommend that I use that, IF they don't have flukes? I mean, if I don't find any flukes tonight, do you think the Cydectin will do the job alright? 

On the other hand, if they DO have flukes, Cydectin doesn't kill them, right? So I would need to get Valbazen or Ivomec plus?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I also was wondering the dosage on Cydectin is if I use it? And is it safe for pregnant does?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im not a fan of cydectin...the smell alone turns me off to it, again using a pour on as a drench can cause bleed out in heavy loaded goats....it does not get liver fluke..only valbazen and Iv plus does..IMO if you have to worm..choose a wormer that covers more...
good luck with your liver fluke test...take pictures and share..it would be neat to see your findings


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you might see if you can order Baycox as well..sounds like you need something new to really kick cocci...I order from horseprerace.com...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The float test is for lung worms it won't show liver fluke. They take too long to hatch.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

They make Cydectin in an injectible. My problem is once you use Cydectin and it doesn't work anymore, you have nowhere to go. If Ivomec still works for you, I would still use that. 

But if you have coccidia, Ivomec and Cydectin don't treat that. You need Baycox or DiMethox or Sulmet. But since you are still having a problem, I would be getting DiMethox 40% or the Baycox.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> They make Cydectin in an injectible. My problem is once you use Cydectin and it doesn't work anymore, you have nowhere to go. If Ivomec still works for you, I would still use that.
> 
> But if you have coccidia, Ivomec and Cydectin don't treat that. You need Baycox or DiMethox or Sulmet. But since you are still having a problem, I would be getting DiMethox 40% or the Baycox.


The Cydectin I have is pour on- "1 cc per 70 lbs bodyweight orally to deworm goats" is what they wrote on the bottle.
I wasn't trying to treat the cocci with the wormers- I have dimethox 12.5 % that I have been using. I wanted to get the 40% from Hoegger's, but they were out when I ordered, so I got the 12.5. :/ Before that I used Corid, caused that's what the vet gave us to use.

Now, we have used quite a few different wormers in the past, I'm sorry to say. The vet told us a long time ago to rotate, so we would worm for a month or two with the same one for two, maybe three months, then change.

In the past, we've used Panacur mostly; Cydectin, Ivermectin, and Hoegger's herbal wormer. :/
Most recently we were using Cydectin, then not too long ago I got the Golden Blend stuff from Hoegger.
The last time we dewormed I used Cydectin; then I didn't think it was working, so about 11 days later I used Golden Blend. I didn't know then to do it three times ten days apart. We got fecals done a little while after that, and they were clean except for cocci. That's when we used Corid on the whole herd.
This was about 6 or 7 weeks ago. So we got the fecals done again about ten days ago, and I already told you the results from that. I have since treated the three Alpines with the Dimethox and the GB wormer. I have not done anything with the rest.
I'm sorry to be such a slow learner; this is all a lot more complicated than I ever thought it would be.:sigh:


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Just found this in the sticky on medicine dosages: 
*Brand Names:* Cydectin; *Generic Name:* moxidectin (DO NOT USE AS POUR ON)
Goat dose: Cydectin- given orally *1cc per 20-25 lbs;* Not safe for pregnant does; keep away from skin.

That's a lot more than 1 cc per 70 lbs like the vet said!! Yet again I sigh and wish we had a goat vet around here...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

And now I'm worried about Ella- she was pregnant when I gave her a dose before...

Oh, and I'm sorry I didn't see the sticky on meds before- I don't usually visit the separate forums so I didn't know it was there. I kind of jump between Today's Posts and my replies..
I was reluctant to look up the dosage online, because I don't ever know if I can trust it to be correct. I could've looked on Goat-Link I guess...
I'm never going to get used to the Internet!! :hair: There are way too many options! I always feel like TGS is my only resource.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok..so they have been treated alot with different wormers...I would let them be for a week or two since no one is on death row do to worms ( I would have fecals done on your new gals however)...after a few weeks, have fresh fecals done and go from there...I would go ahead and order Valbazen and keep on hand..I would also keep Ivomec PLUS on hand as well, since Valbazen is not good for pregnant does.....Keep to these two wormers until they just do not work any more..if you are worming only when needed they wont grow resistant any time soon..: ) 
I do the 3 times 10 days apart then once again in 30 ONLY when heavy loaded..If its just a booster, like right after kidding, I only treat once..
You will get it all fingured out...with so many choices....its crazy..If her want to do as natural as posible, Once you have your worm count under control then using herbals as a support is not bad..but you have the chemical wormer in case you need to be more aggressive...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> Ok..so they have been treated alot with different wormers...
> _Yes, they have, but I should've mentioned that these were all the ones we used over a course of 5 or 6 years._
> 
> I would let them be for a week or two since no one is on death row do to worms ( I would have fecals done on your new gals however)
> ...


I put my answers in the quote^^
Okay, so I guess I'll wait to deworm till I have gotten the three consecutive fecal checks done.
Thanks Cathy, I feel relieved. I just need to get the wormers now.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Well, I got the Ivomec Plus in the mail yesterday. :stars: I went ahead and did some of them last night.
Poor little Dotty, (the one my avatar is of) she hated it! She didn't flop on the ground or anything, she just kind of ran around in circles for a minute bleating her head off. But she was okay once I gave her some feed.  

I'm kind of hyped; we might be going out of town in a day or two... !! We have some friends from out of state over who just might be able to stay long enough for us to get away for five days or a week. :EEK!: 
We haven't been out of town in forever!
It actually kind of works out well with the Ivomec Plus which I was going to give the milkers this evening after we get one more milking out of them, because I decided that we should throw out the milk for five days to a week, (I know there's different opinions on that; that's just what I feel comfortable with ) and they won't be needing as much as we would anyway, plus it'll save some of the trouble of cooling it and storing it, etc.
I'm a little nervous about leaving the goats, but we've known these people for a long time, and I know we can trust them.  We might get to go out to west TX!! Love it out there!


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

great! but don't throw the milk out. feed it to your plants. milk is a GREAT fertilizer!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

lol..poor Dottie ...at least the sting dont last too long...
how exciting to get away a bit...farm life sure keeps us hostage..so if youhave a chance...go for it...it wil be fine...

I agree with nchen7...use the milk for plants, pigs, chickens love it and soap..my as well put it to good use : )


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Well, we've been back for a couple days now- It's been busy though, having company, so I haven't been on here as much.  we were only away for four days, but it was great! We are refreshed.

On the goat subject, I guess it's been 8 or 9 days since I dosed them all with Ivomec plus, but I haven't seen much if any improvement in eye color. Should I dose again, or keep giving red cell until I see color? 
For those who weren't in the know, goathiker advised me to dose once, because we both thought that my goats may have a liver fluke problem, and they would not need more than one dose of wormer.


I never got the chance to do fecals on the new little NDs, but they are looking much improved. ( They got Ivomec+ as well) 
They've both gained a little weight, and their coats are getting really glossy. And It may be my imagination, but I don't think Dotty's legs are as spindly as they were at first.  oh, and she's not at all bony any more.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm going to explain that before I get flamed.

The Liver Fluke takes 4 months to travel through the animal to the liver. They are a very long lived parasite and individuals can live up to 20 years. 
Any Liver Fluke that your animal is sick with now, were pick up last spring. The OP lives in South Texas, there are no wet areas for Liver Fluke to hatch in during the summer. Even the snails are hiding underground. One worming will kill what was picked up last spring and we know that no more will be hatching until fall...

Any class of drugs that are hard on an animal, should only be given as necessary.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

It might be time for you to send off samples to a lab to get a good read on what , if any worm issue you are dealing with....Its frustrating I know to keep battling. Its like shooting in the dark hoping to hit something lol..I would also have a bit of blood drawn on the ones with pale eyes to see if they are indeed anemic or just have paler eyes then the others..

Welcome back by the way


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

goathiker said:


> I'm going to explain that before I get flamed.
> 
> The Liver Fluke takes 4 months to travel through the animal to the liver. They are a very long lived parasite and individuals can live up to 20 years.
> Any Liver Fluke that your animal is sick with now, were pick up last spring. The OP lives in South Texas, there are no wet areas for Liver Fluke to hatch in during the summer. Even the snails are hiding underground. One worming will kill what was picked up last spring and we know that no more will be hatching until fall...
> ...


Did I put it wrong again? I'm sorry; I'm such a dunce when it comes to the whole worms thing. I so wish that we just had a good goat vet so I could let him/her do all the thinking for me. 
I seriously don't want to give anyone the wrong idea about anything- I'm just trying to figure it out.


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

NDlover said:


> Did I put it wrong again? I'm sorry; I'm such a dunce when it comes to the whole worms thing. I so wish that we just had a good goat vet so I could let him/her do all the thinking for me.
> I seriously don't want to give anyone the wrong idea about anything- I'm just trying to figure it out.


Where are you located? Maybe you aren't too far from mine


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> It might be time for you to send off samples to a lab to get a good read on what , if any worm issue you are dealing with....Its frustrating I know to keep battling. Its like shooting in the dark hoping to hit something lol..I would also have a bit of blood drawn on the ones with pale eyes to see if they are indeed anemic or just have paler eyes then the others..
> 
> Welcome back by the way


Thanks^^

Would it be expensive or complicated to do that?? And, actually, only one or two DON'T have really pale lids. Out of ten goats, that seems like a high percentage. :/ but they are looking really healthy. :shrug:


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

NDlover said:


> Close to Shiner; 20 miles east of Gonzales. Where's your vet?


You're still a ways from me. I think I'm west of Gonzales.....darn! My vet is in Lockhart but then I also have a vet friend as well who has raised dairy goats for 20+ yrs who is extremely knowledgeable but she's in Staples so that's even further from you. :GAAH:


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

still said:


> You're still a ways from me. I think I'm west of Gonzales.....darn! My vet is in Lockhart but then I also have a vet friend as well who has raised dairy goats for 20+ yrs who is extremely knowledgeable but she's in Staples so that's even further from you. :GAAH:


Hmm. Yeah, it's frustrating all right. I tried once to look online to find someone near us, but came up dry. Not really sure how to go about it online anyway. :shrug: If I just had the number of a goat vet to call, that would make me feel better. But I guess they might not like that? I mean, if everyone for miles around started calling them up in addition to all their regular customers, it could get pretty annoying.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

goathiker said:


> I'm going to explain that before I get flamed.
> 
> The Liver Fluke takes 4 months to travel through the animal to the liver. They are a very long lived parasite and individuals can live up to 20 years.
> Any Liver Fluke that your animal is sick with now, were pick up last spring. The OP lives in South Texas, there are no wet areas for Liver Fluke to hatch in during the summer. Even the snails are hiding underground. One worming will kill what was picked up last spring and we know that no more will be hatching until fall...
> ...


No, it's fine, most here would say give 3 times 10 days apart. For Liver Fluke that is a waste of medicine and more than one dose isn't doing anything but stress the animals liver more.

I will say this...Fecals are pretty much a waste of time and money in the summer. Even Mommy Parasites don't breed their kids to be sent to death. During hot dry weather, there is not much to be seen on a fecal whether the animal has worms or not.

What would I do if I had a group of happy healthy goats who were pale but, who also have had multiple liver and kidney destroying substances poured down them? I would feed them the best quality alfalfa I could find, a quality horse vitamin supplement, and let their bodies heal for good long while. That's just me though.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Would you say red cell qualifies as a good horse vitamin supplement?And what kind of alfalfa would you call good quality? We feed %17 alfalfa pellets...


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

NDlover said:


> Hmm. Yeah, it's frustrating all right. I tried once to look online to find someone near us, but came up dry. Not really sure how to go about it online anyway. :shrug: If I just had the number of a goat vet to call, that would make me feel better. But I guess they might not like that? I mean, if everyone for miles around started calling them up in addition to all their regular customers, it could get pretty annoying.


I have to say that my vet has not seen or laid a hand on any of my goats and he has helped me many times. I have taken my dogs there though so he at least knows who I am. I do take fecal samples in all the time so I'm not sure how he would feel not having met you at all. I could always ask.:shrug:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Both of those things are good. After you run out of Red Cell, you might look at these, I really like how well they work. http://www.horseguard.com/shop/inde...f=Complete+Equine+Vitamin+Mineral+Supplements


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thanks. Are those only available online?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I can get them at both feed stores in my town. They are pretty popular.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Okay, I still need your help. I'm not sure what to do next. At least half of of my goats have almost white eyelids. The red cell doesn't seem to be helping. I gave them all another dose of that today. 
We're a little tight on money right now, especially when it comes to animals- not exactly a priority to my folks. So I don't know if can afford to send in fecals to a state lab. I'm not sure how much that would cost anyway? I don't know if my parents be willing to let me get regular fecals done again or not, but more importantly, I don't know if there would even be any point in it, since it's not an in-depth test. :shrug:


My main question right now is should I does with Ivomec plus again? I was afraid of overdoing it with the meds, and I thought I'd see improvement sooner, so I didn't do another round in ten days. I hope that that wasn't a really dumb thing not to do. :/ we were also busy with company, and tired out after they left, and I just didn't do it.


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## Goatgirl21 (Jan 25, 2013)

happybleats said:


> you might see if you can order Baycox as well..sounds like you need something new to really kick cocci...I order from horseprerace.com...


Your profile pic looks a lot like my lamancha cross doeling 









like my lamancha cross doeling


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

?????Any thoughts anyone?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Retreating wont hurt if you feel like worms are still an issue. Our weather has been very crazy so the stress could open that worm load doorMight need to get iron injectable for the anemia. Also consider things that your goats might have access to that prevents the iron absorption . I'm sorry this has been such a huge problem for you. I know you will figure it out


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thanks Cathy. I know, I can't believe it is taking this long to get this solved! :hair:
Me, personally, I don't really think worms are the whole issue here, though that may be a part of it. I feel like maybe since we knew so little for so long, and weren't making sure they got their minerals, that perhaps they were deficient in several vital ones, and it's going to take some time for it to even back out.
The younger doelings' eyes aren't quite as pale as the older goats', and I feel like maybe they are too young to have gotten as deficient. :shrug:
I probably need to retreat the doelings for cocci., since they're still so young, and it's been several weeks since I treated them. That could be their problem, but I really feel that the older goats are just having a hard time coming back from being deficient in who knows how many different minerals. That's my theory.


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

I have to admit that I've had the same problem Sarah. I have dewormed regularly, given minerals free-choice, given copper boluses, and feed a well balanced diet and STILL have pale eyelids also. My older ones are worse than the young ones and I even took a fecal in to the vet on one of my 6 month olds and it was completely clear!!! I'm not sure what to do either but my vet told me that since I've been using Cydectin and Molly's herbal wormer between he suggested that I change to Dectomax. So I'll try that. You, HappyBleats, and I all live in the same "general" area of Texas I think? So I'll let you know what happens with that.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Sounds good.I'm glad I'm not the only one!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Also as goat hiker said.. They may need a break from meds and allow their body to clean out. Aa long as they are not introuble that is Probios is always good to give.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I think that's what I'm going to do- give 'em a break, give red cell, make sure they get their minerals, and get fecals done after a few weeks. We'll see what happens after that.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I decided to go ahead and treat for cocci again, as I suspected the kids (well, doelings-they're 5 months old now) of needing it again since they're more susceptible to getting it, and I was pretty sure the older ones had it too, since they just wouldn't quit eating the short grass in their pen  I think our place( or at least the goat pen) has a recurring cocci problem or something.Anywho, it's been about 4 days since they got their last dose of Dimethox, and I'm finally seeing _some_ color in the 3 milk does' eyes, yay!!  
So now I feel kind of silly, if that was the problem all this time... But IDK, they still have quite a bit of color to gain before I'll feel like they're okay.
But its some good news, finally! I'm very happy! :stars:
All the doelings are improving as well, including my two new little NDs.

BUT, little Ella (ND) has still got white white lids and I just don't know what to do. :/ I've been giving her red cell weekly (or trying to), but it doesn't seem to be helping.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ella may need a bit more help..Iron injectable and B 12...B 12 helps rebuild the red blood cells..

Its great the others are doing so well...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Would these be good to use, or can I get them locally? http://www.jefferspet.com/ferrodex-100-iron-dextran-injectable-100-ml/camid/LIV/cp/A2-F1/

http://www.jefferspet.com/vitamin-b-complex-plus/camid/LIV/cp/A2-VC/


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

And here's another kind of B 12 I could get - http://hoeggerfarmyard.com/xcart/Fortified-Vitamin-B-12-Oral-Gel-15-ml.html


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes this are perfect


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would get the b complex plus over the paste


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Okay.  thanks.


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