# PG 600 and CIDR



## nmabry

I've used CIDR for the first time this year and it induced heat and does were successfully bred, but only 50% of the does ended up conceiving (blood tested). I'm down to 4 does who are still open. I put CIDR's in on March 6th. Does anyone have advice? Do y'all suggest pulling on day 18 or 21? And I want to use PG 600 this time? Advice?


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## BCG

We do 18 days and give PG600 when we pull the cidr. Usually run about 80% success rate.


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## Tenacross

Be careful with the PG600. It can cause super ovulation leading to *big* litters. As in quints. I believe this is what happened with my doe Grace.


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## mjs500doo

Personally I don't deal a lot with PG600, as in my area it's pretty much only used for the swine breeding. 

I tend to stick with lutalyse, cystorelin, and estrumate.


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## GTAllen

Tenacross said:


> Be careful with the PG600. It can cause super ovulation leading to *big* litters. As in quints. I believe this is what happened with my doe Grace.


Did you have any other big litters with PG600 and CIDRs?


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## BCG

I've never had anything more than triplets. It can happen, but I don't think it's real common. The only problem I've ever had with pg600 is it causing false heat and then taking 3 months for the doe to recycle.


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## Tenacross

GTAllen said:


> Did you have any other big litters with PG600 and CIDRs?


Grace was the only doe that I AI'd with this protocol. All my other does have only had twins except for Rose the Saanen who had trips. This wasn't something I dreamed up on my own. I read the warning on "Dairy Goat Info". Several Dairy goat people agreed. They claimed it is dose dependent on the super ovulation risk. 
I used the CIDRs lute and PG600 on Grace to fit in to my helper's schedule who was going to the National Dairy Goat conference for a week. 
If I ever do it again... I would either skip the PG600 or give a very low dose.


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## GTAllen

I was wondering about the risk. With you having a litter of 5, I found that to be highly unusual, from everything I have read. I didn't know what protocol you used. Quads even seems fairly rare with boers. Can I use just CIDRs and Lutalyse to sync them for AI? I want to AI 3 does this year is why I am asking.


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## mjs500doo

GTAllen said:


> I was wondering about the risk. With you having a litter of 5, I found that to be highly unusual, from everything I have read. I didn't know what protocol you used. Quads even seems fairly rare with boers. Can I use just CIDRs and Lutalyse to sync them for AI? I want to AI 3 does this year is why I am asking.


You absolutely can just use CIDR and lutalyse. Or go about it differently and use an ov-synch program with cystorelin and lutalyse.


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## nmabry

mjs500doo said:


> You absolutely can just use CIDR and lutalyse. Or go about it differently and use an ov-synch program with cystorelin and lutalyse.


What the steps/protocol and dosages if using cystorelin and lute?


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## nmabry

mjs500doo said:


> You absolutely can just use CIDR and lutalyse. Or go about it differently and use an ov-synch program with cystorelin and lutalyse.


What are the steps and dosage to using just CIDR with lutalyse?


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## nmabry

Tenacross said:


> Grace was the only doe that I AI'd with this protocol. All my other does have only had twins except for Rose the Saanen who had trips. This wasn't something I dreamed up on my own. I read the warning on "Dairy Goat Info". Several Dairy goat people agreed. They claimed it is dose dependent on the super ovulation risk.
> I used the CIDRs lute and PG600 on Grace to fit in to my helper's schedule who was going to the National Dairy Goat conference for a week.
> If I ever do it again... I would either skip the PG600 or give a very low dose.


What dosage of PG600 did u give the doe (Grace) that had quints?
When was the lute given? What day and what dose?


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## Tenacross

nmabry said:


> What dosage of PG600 did u give the doe (Grace) that had quints?
> When was the lute given? What day and what dose?


I just checked my notes. I gave 2cc of PG600.
The protocol I used was Teresa Wade's of Bio-Genics. I gave the Lute (prostoglandin) on day 10 and removed CIDR and administered PG600 on day 11. Day 12 she was in heat. Day 13 inseminated. This produced a *very* strong heat. Grace was searching my entire pasture and screaming all night looking for a buck.

http://www.luresext.edu/goats/training/advrepro.html

In field trials, producers have gained the highest rate of success when practicing the following protocol involving a progesterone device that delivers 0.3 g of Progesterone.

Day one; insert progesterone implant.
Day thirteen; 2 cc of prostaglandin administered intramuscular (IM) with dosage dependent on product label and doe body weight.
Day fourteen; 1.5 cc dose of PG600 administered IM and device removed.
Day fifteen; doe shows sign of estrus.
Day sixteen; doe is carefully monitored and inseminated.


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## mjs500doo

I might also recommend starting an ov-synch program, (ETA-I personally don't use PG600, as i don't care for it) one that I follow:

Initial: 2cc lutalyse
10 days: 2cc lutalyse
Watch for signs of heat, follow up with the Am/Pm rule for typical AI breeding. 

Another that a commercial dairy uses:
Initial: 3cc lutalyse
7 days: 1cc cystorelin
14 days: 3cc lutalyse 
17 days: 1cc cystorelin and breed on this day.


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## nmabry

Thanks!

Good info!


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## nmabry

Ok, did everything "right". Gave the lute, and PG600. They showed signs of heat and are at the breeders now. Question is: can I reinsert a CIDR in a couple days when I get them home without causing problems? 

Reasoning is: I figure in 18 days when I pull the CIDR, she will either go into heat or not (hopefully) go into heat because she is bred. This eliminates waiting 30 days to blood test and then 17 more to start over with CIDRs again if she is open thus saving time. Progesterone supports pregnancy in humans. (Those who repeatedly miscarry early are given progesterone shots). So will the CIDR cause any harm in if they do get bred?


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## mjs500doo

nmabry said:


> Ok, did everything "right". Gave the lute, and PG600. They showed signs of heat and are at the breeders now. Question is: can I reinsert a CIDR in a couple days when I get them home without causing problems?
> 
> Reasoning is: I figure in 18 days when I pull the CIDR, she will either go into heat or not (hopefully) go into heat because she is bred. This eliminates waiting 30 days to blood test and then 17 more to start over with CIDRs again if she is open thus saving time. Progesterone supports pregnancy in humans. (Those who repeatedly miscarry early are given progesterone shots). So will the CIDR cause any harm in if they do get bred?


I wouldn't put a CIDR back in, as you'd want to limit bacteria in the vagina at conception (especially not risk infection). If you really want to "make sure", just give her a single dose of cystorelin.


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## BCG

We reinsert a new cdir 12 days after breeding for 21 days. Pull cdir and do not give any drugs. Any does that did not settle should cycle.


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## Tenacross

mjs500doo said:


> I wouldn't put a CIDR back in, as you'd want to limit bacteria in the vagina at conception (especially not risk infection). If you really want to "make sure", just give her a single dose of cystorelin.


You lost me here. What would you be trying to do with the cystorelin?


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## nmabry

BCG said:


> We reinsert a new cdir 12 days after breeding for 21 days. Pull cdir and do not give any drugs. Any does that did not settle should cycle.


Why 12? Just curious. I've read of reinserting at 4 days post breeding. So just comparing.


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## mjs500doo

Tenacross said:


> You lost me here. What would you be trying to do with the cystorelin?


Cystorelin is safe to use in case of a pregnancy. Sometimes we use it on cows (and goats) if they seem like they're cystic or in heat after being confirmed. In particular we also use it after a CIDR and breeding to be sure she stuck. If she didn't, she can be bred again.


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## BCG

nmabry said:


> Why 12? Just curious. I've read of reinserting at 4 days post breeding. So just comparing.


Well....I never asked the question. Just what my mentor told me and it has always work for me. ??? Ha-ha... sorry I don't have a better answer for you.


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## nmabry

BCG said:


> Well....I never asked the question. Just what my mentor told me and it has always work for me. ??? Ha-ha... sorry I don't have a better answer for you.


Ok- if it works... Then it works!

Thanks!


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## jbradley

Is the PG600 given subcutaneously, as it is in pigs.


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## Ranger1

No. All hormones in goats are given IM


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