# Really not sure what I should do!



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Okay so I kinda promised my oldest 2 kids that I'd buy them each a nice doe this year for 4-H. 
I am torn between getting them fullblooded Boer does, or percentages.
My kids are 10 & 13 and very shy, and really need to do things to build their confidence and encourage them to 'come out of their shell.' 
We have 3 does going to kid starting Feb 18th, 25th and March 3rd.
The first one was my sons 4-H 50% boer doe last year she did fine, but he does not plan to show her again this year. 
The other two aren't 'show quality' but if they have decent, clean teated kids...
My hopes are that each of my kids will show 2 goats each <if one gets sick, they have another one they can show>
My youngest who is 5 can pick a wether since she's only doing showmanship.

Fullbloods- I found a boer breeder whose kidding season starts this week. They are also not too far from here. She would like for us to come out in a week or two after the first round of does kid so she can show the goats and the kids. I really am interested, and would love for my kids to possibly choose young kids to use over the next couple of years in the 4-H breeding stock program.
My concern is, at most of the fairs we go to, there are a lot of pro breeders and show peeps. They always come with an aersenol of goats that are worth hundreds to thousands of dollars. I worry if my kids can't compete well against them it could be a confidence burner.

Percentages - I found a breeder who has a pretty good reputation and has raised hundreds of fullbloods/percentages, has done great at shows, etc. The does were born in April/May of last year and they are trying to cut back. Prices are pretty good for the higher quality does, about the same as the fullblood kids.
I'd like to go take a look at these does.

We don't plan to buy/bring home any goats right now. In a couple of weeks or so at the earliest. 
My concern right now would be barn space. I can 'make' it work, but was hoping to get younger does <around 4-6 months old>. I am going to build a small shelter adjacent to the barn, but wasn't planning to do it until early summer.

The fullblood kids wouldn't be ready to bring home until about the 2nd week of April. That would actually be the best time for us to bring in additions - plus I could reserve the ones my kids want.

The fullblood breeder told me to bring the family out in a couple of weeks after the does have kidded. Should I just bite the bullet and do this and see how it plays out? If they don't like showing fullbloods over percentages, then we can sell the does at the end of the fair season, and get them percentages next year? Just give it a shot this year? I'm okay with doing that too.

So confusing! one minute I think I have it all figured out...the next...not so much. I am probably one of the worst people when it comes to making a decision LOL I just want the best for my kids though.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

If your kids are showing in 4H, why are they showing against pros? They should be showing in the 4H class which is only against other 4h kids. I would suggest the market goat class also as that gives them experience showing AND they get to sell a goat for a premium price. My daughter is showing in market goat, showmanship and breeding goat this year. She'll show a couple in open class also, but we don't have a big open class goat show. 

If your kids really have to compete against such high quality animals, they will need to get high quality animals if they want to place at all. High quality does not necessarily mean high price. If you know what show quality looks like, take your time and find what you want at a price you can afford. Since breeding stock doesn't have a weigh-in date, you have some time. Just my opinion as a fellow 4H mom....


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

we experienced the "super showers" this year-lol!! There are some families that are completely over the top w/the competition at the shows. 

This is/was my daughters 1st year. She got 3rd place once but other than that never did "win" with Macho. Now, Macho is a fairly nice wether. But we have to work at it to get the goat right, her showmanship right ect. The way our 4H works my daughter who is 11 competes against seniors in high school who have been showing 4H for years. 

I have just explained to her that it will take time to win and that she needs to work at it, like someone would work at a job, to get better and better. I have laid a foundation for her, that this is a learning experience and when she does better in the show ring we celebrate as a family for her personal "wins" that she is doing better and better all the time. 

This next year I will be chosing a different body style for our wether. I have learned more of what the judges like/want by carefully watching the show ring all the time at the competitons. So hopefully next year she will even achieve more. 

All of that being said maybe you could start off by explaining that you don't need them to win the shows to feel that they have accomplished goals and their own personal wins in the 4H. 

Regarding the % vs the fullblood goats--go with which ever is the "best" built goat. We have a herd of show quality boers--but my daughter shows an unregistered american purebred at 4H (in our area is is called FFA). 

I have also found an older girl that is a MASTER in the showring. I am going to have her come and tutor my daughter with some lessons on how to properly set the goats and what have you for the showring. This is something else that could help your kids too--an older child that they could look up to that can help them learn.

Remember--there is always going to be a better kid with "showmanship" and always going to be a better goat out there. Any amount of $$ spent wont cure this--just gotta do the best you can and let the chips fall where they may. :greengrin: IMO


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

This is going to sound kinda funny....but....find someone with an extremely well trained show dog. And have your kids practice showing that dog. Showing a goat is almost exactly like showing a dog! You have to "stack" a goat just like you do a dog. And showmanship is the same...except you don't do the patterns. 

4H and FFA are not the same thing...I've belonged to both and they are fundamentally different. 

Showmanship classes are set up by age group. Market classes are set up by weight. 

Breeding classes are set up by breed (if there are enough different breeds entered) and by age and by sex. Some shows don't allow intact males to be shown (our fair does not allow intact males of any large species to be shown....horse, cow, pig, goat, etc) We also do not have enough breeding animals to divide by breeds so all breeds are shown in one class separated by age if there are enough. Goats generally have only 4 or 5 total so all ages are shown together.

Fair and Open Shows are also different. Fair shows include 4H AND open. 4H is open to 4h member ONLY. Open Class is open to the world and any one can show. To show in a 4h class at a county fair you must be registered in the project within that county. Some counties also require pre-registration for the fair. There are also 4H shows that are not county fair shows...most of those require some kind of ID to show your animal (I'm only familiar with the horse side of these) An open show not connected to a county fair is of course open to the world and you will be showing against pros.


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## brbn (Nov 30, 2011)

That is always hard to have to teach a child at a young age that if they put all the hard work, dedication, and knowledge into there project that they still may not "win" a ribbon. I agree to first talk with them about focusing on all the success they have "out side the ring". How they have improved or learned new things about there project this year. 
When it comes to the goats...pick the best structurally correct doe kids that will complement your herd and work well genetically when bred with your buck. If they are equal in all accounts and the percentage class is less competitive, I would go with the percentages.
Good Luck!
Anna Burkholder
www.freewebs.com/brbn


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks everyone I appreciate it! The fairs here do things differently than they probably do in other states. Nice thing is they can show in any county that is 'open' which is a majority of them. The bad thing is, 4-H consists of 'showmanship and market wethers.' If the kids show in breeds classes they are up against other kids and adults. IMO they really should have a show just for kids and then a show for kids and adults. 
We don't have much land, and IMO it's really hard for the kids to condition a market wether, BUT we'll see what happens when our girls kid. 
Another thing is the kids have to find their own buyers during the 4-H auction, and honestly I'm not real sure we know of anyone that would want to buy a wether. So if we sold at auction it might probably be at the stockyard. 

I will admit I am lousy at conformation. I photograph thoroughbred racehorses at the sales, and people tell me this and that about their conformation and I am like okay LOL I know what the nice does look like in pictures when they are mature, and I've seen some in the shows, but when it comes to picking out a baby I'd be clueless. I pray the breeder would be very upfront and honest.

If our girls have some doelings, then I'm all for the kids trying with fullbloods. If not, I'm worried LOL

I will keep my eyes open for any more breeders in the area just in case.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

You can petition your Fair Board to add Breeding Goats to the 4h lineup. Or your extension office. I'd try the extension office first. If there are enough 4H kids that actually show Breeding goats, they might add it. You're probably too late for this year, but I'd sure make a bid for next year. Talk to the other kids at the shows and see if any of them are interested. 

That's too bad about having to find your own buyers. I've heard about that. Even here in Kansas all sales are done differently. Some just bid on a bonus (there is a base amount and the buyer adds a bonus) others bid by the pound. Ours is by the pound. Some kids make a LOT of money off their animals. We had a girl get $5000 for her steer 2 years ago. Lizzie got $247 for her 50 pound wether last year! Makes it really nice for the kids and a good incentive for them to continue showing.


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## brbn (Nov 30, 2011)

Don't know if ohio is too far for you but I have a friend in ada ohio who has nice showquality kids. She dosnt show and hasn't sold kids in the past because she was building up her herd but she has lots on ennoblements in her bloodlines. She has red,paints,a d traditionals. This is her blog. Http://windyhillbirdsandboers.blogspot.com (we are sold out I would suggesst the petition too. If your fair is money hungry let them know they would get more money. People would pay at the entry gate to get in to the jr. Doe show and then if the open show was a different day, they would pay again at the entry gate that day. Sometimes the only thing that motivates change is the knowledge that it is helping them. Sad but true.
goodluck
anna
http://www.freewebs.com/brbn


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Just a couple of comments. If the reality is, in order to show breeding animals you end up in a "open show" situation, percentage goats are a more economical option to be competitive. Keep in mind though, you will still have to have a very good goat to win, you just might not have had to pay as much for it. I would still go look at the goats at the farm that had fullbloods. It doesn't hurt to look. At the few open shows I've been to, a good generalization would be that those competitors "on a budget" specialize in percentages. They do win there share. It might prove difficult to get fairs, 4H and FFA to change how they do things. You might be better off sticking to whethers for the kids' showing.


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## goatgirlzCA (Mar 9, 2011)

My daughter really enjoys showing the does, and here, the classes are usually smaller than the market classes. But one thing to always keep in mind, and remind your kids, that it's only "one person's opinion."


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Wow you all are so great, I am so glad I have you all to talk to about this stuff 

The market classes here are HUGE. At a couple of shows it seemed to take HOURS. My kids haven't shown an interest in wethers at all, they like showing does. I would like them to each have 2 goats to show, and my youngest can pick a doe or wether since she is just doing showmanship I told her she can pick a baby from the girls.

Well, getting the fair to change things would probably be hard to do, because we are the ONLY kids in our county showing goats LOL This is most definitely 'horse country' <most major thoroughbred farms in the world are located in our county>.
I like that people do come from other counties to show at our county fair, our fair actually isn't so bad. The counties surrounding us have larger goat shows. In fact the farm that has the percentage does sponsors the show in their county which is below us/one we attended last year, so I know they have nice goats, and I've seen the owner at work, he is an older man and quite impressive, makes trimming, shaving, etc. look as easy as buttering hot toast LOL

I did talk to my son about it today, and he is fine with showing fullbloods or percentages. I told him to remember how big those classes were, and he says he's fine with it. I'll talk to my daughter, then I'll talk to my husband about it. It's hard to talk to my husband about this stuff until I get a feel for what the kids want because he's only attended one show, and doesn't know what the kids are up against <LOL>. 
The things my kids love about the shows too is along with ribbons they've won $$ in the past. My son won over $200 last year showing his doe - they each got something from every show. My daughter had a smaller framed doe, and although the doe was EXCELLENT in the ring and I was so proud of them both, the doe just couldn't cut it since she was at the bottom of her age group 
My kids had a blast  Of course I tell them NOT to think about winning or losing even if there is a price offered, just do their best and have fun.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Yeah, when you're the only ones showing a species it does take a bit to get a change made. LOL Our fair was that way years ago with goats and that's now almost the biggest show we have. We live in the middle of beef country so market beef was our biggest show back when. And it was as competitive as you're saying the goat showing is. People would go out and spend 3 or 4 thousand on a show steer. Show wethers are selling for 200 to 300 up here....ridiculous price I think.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I guess honestly I can't really complain about our county fair, it's more the other counties that has a lot of really big pro competition. However, at our fair last summer it seemed that the majority of people showing were from 3 different families of pros, and they brought in a bunch of goats. One boy basically took first in every category including percentages.

BBB - Last year was my kids first time showing in 4-H too and their goats were ethiopians compared to the other goats LOL!!!! We had no idea what we were doing. I can ask for advice on here all I want for prepping a goat, but it's really hard to know without someone showing you, especially if you are not familiar with showing animals at all. I don't know anyone that shows animals let alone goats, so I have no one I can take the kids to watch and learn other than watch at the shows.

They have a lot to learn <but then so do I>. They haven't been studying like we planned to do over the winter, so we're starting to plan the studying out. I will admit, I am not sure where they should start on learning about goats. So I told them they should study the anatomy of the goat, and I'll start quizzing them on the body parts - and I have a few other ideas too.
I'll also be printing out a 4-H project book I want them to do. I wish our state did the project books! I remember I started to do 4-H with rabbits in Indiana years ago, and had to have so many projects done in my book before I could show<I never showed though, as I ended up moving into the city with my mom and only kept one of my rabbits who thought she was a dog and not a rabbit LOL>. 
So, I think I may set my own goals - they have to complete so many projects before I'll take them to a show.

Our county fair is the 2nd or 3rd week in June one of the earliest in our area. But there is a youth expo at the end of July where they get a final judgement on their projects. The goat show is open to youth from other counties, but is strictly for youth so that is a plus.

As for buying does to suit our buck. Well...I don't know if we'll have our buck when we breed any does we buy. I'm kind of at the point I don't want to keep a buck year round. Once our current buck gets over being sick, I believe I'll most likely sell him. The only reason we kept him after the girls were bred/showed proof they were pregnant is because my son wanted to show him this summer. Since he still has a long way to go, I'll probably have him another couple of months.

Sorry to ramble, I am just so not good at making these kind of decisions. I know what "I" want, but I don't know if what I want is what is best for my kids.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Well....I think we may just go for the gold LOL I think we'll be looking to purchase some young boer doelings! So I'll get in touch with the lady who has the fullbloods and see what her babies look like a week after they are born - we'll be able to see their does and buck, etc. So it will give us more of an idea. 
I'll also look for a couple of local breeders too just in case. My kids are excited  Young kids would be ideal since they wouldn't be ready to bring home until early April. I figure if the kids pick out their does, we can pay and get the registration paperwork done since they have to have proof by May 1st so they can register their 4-H project animals.

I think the does are due this week and next week, so probably in about 2 weeks we'll be able to get a glimpse. Fingers crossed!


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Sounds like that might be the right decision. Congrats! I know about the books. I don't think any state does the project books any more. It's all done online now. What a joke! I hate the new way they do it. With the book you had a paper in front of you so you knew what you had to fill out. There was a story to write, etc. This new method is suppose to be easier, but I guess what they say about teaching an old dog new tricks is right....I hate it. LOL


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

kccjer said:


> Sounds like that might be the right decision. Congrats! I know about the books. I don't think any state does the project books any more. It's all done online now. What a joke! I hate the new way they do it. With the book you had a paper in front of you so you knew what you had to fill out. There was a story to write, etc. This new method is suppose to be easier, but I guess what they say about teaching an old dog new tricks is right....I hate it. LOL


Thanks! And I totally agree, a book is MUCH better than doing it on the computer! I don't even allow my 10 & 13 yos on the computer much at all - mostly because I don't want a virus on my computer LOL Things like that need to be done in physical form not via internet...IMO it really does take the fun out of it! Although it could be fun if they had like internet quiz' and things the kids could do, now that I am fine with, but as far as a project book type of thing, it HAS to be physical not virtual!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Candice, I was thinking about your situation a little bit.
If I were you and I was an expert photographer like you are, I would be looking to some big time Boer breeders anywhere near you and trying to trade your talent at photography for goats. Show them some of your work and be sure to include your horse photography. It might be well worth it to them in order to improve their websites, thus sales. 
Look at this website.
http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/
I bet you can do those kind of pictures.


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## polopony (Jun 24, 2011)

If they want to show does, then buy the best fullblood you can afford and breed her to the best you can afford. My son is in the same boat. He really wants to show in the open shows as well as 4-H. So he bought a couple nice does and bred them to the best buck we could afford. It is a process like everything else. In order to learn, they have to understand what they are looking for. If you have a local or regional association, join it. Also join one of the national associations. They have junior memberships at a reduced rate.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks so much Tenacross and polopony!

Tenacross - That is a great idea that I've had come to mind from time to time, just didn't think about it now, so I am glad you brought it up. The fullblood breeders website doesn't have very many pictures and besides their buck it kind of looks like phone type pics, not terrible quality, but as nice as their kids/buck/does seem to be, I figure they could do better. I will have to mention it to them 

polopony - that is my thoughts exactly. The only problem with these fullbloods is, they would be too young to breed in for babies next year, possibly. I know most don't breed until 1 1/2 - 2 years, but we go based on age, but also size. Plus all of our does have kidded as yearlings, didn't seem to affect them.
So we may or may not be able to breed babies we buy. I was hoping by April to have does at least 6 months old, these kids would be 3 months old. If they can't be bred, then the kids can at least work on conditioning them next year too for showing  We'll have other percentage does that we will always breed for early year kids. 
We don't plan to keep our buck, and don't plan on keeping a buck outside of breeding season, so we might even consider buying them each a young does this time next year too. Then after the next year show season, decide which ones make the cut, and which ones don't. 
There are lots of possabilities


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

OK this is just my 2 cents and my experience. I totally like percentages better. I think they grow better and make a nicer animal in the long run. But I can understand wanting full bloods we just don't have the money for good full bloods to show. Plus our fair does not separate by papers so Full Bloods, percentages, and commercial all show together. Does are in age classes wethers by weight. I feel most of the time at our fair the full bloods are in the top to middle of the classes but are usually beat out by a percentage doe. The oly reason I know who is a full blood is because I know all the boer goat people. 
If it were me I would look for 2 75-88% does that have good structure, muscle, length, depth, and width and not worry much about if they are full blood or not. But if you do find a full blood for the same price that is just as good or better then maybe jump on it. Good luck I hope this all makes sense and know that I am a newbie just like you so I don't know it all either.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Roger I appreciate it! Yep they seperate everything here, and each division is shown in age grops - wethers by weight.
Typically the shows do showmanship-market animals-percentages-fullbloods-bucks, that's the order they tend to show in anyway.
And it's 0-3mo,3-6mo,6-9mo, etc. etc. in each percentage/fullblood/buck.

We will keep our options open, but want to look into the fullbloods when they are a week old and then go look at the percentage does. They price between the nicer percentage does and the fullblood doe kids is not much at all. We'll definitely check them all out before we make our purchase.
I kind of want to see what Madison has in 2 weeks too. I'm sure with our luck she'll have a boy....heh. Snow White could give the kids a 'decent' percentage doe, not top of the class quality but one they could have fun with, but again no guarantee she's carrying a girl but I do think she is carrying twins. Trouble, it's just hard to say what her kids will be like this time. They each had a buck and a doe last year.
I'm trying to get weight back on Madison's mama, so we can get her bred for fall kids. I'm thinking Nov-Dec kids, but again no guarantee she'd have girls...! I wish we could push a button and choose what sex the babies will be LOL!!!!


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

HAHAHA that would be nice to pick the sex of kids LOL. Well good luck I hate making those decisions. I think Madison will have doe/buck twins. I think Snow white may surprise you when bred with this buck. She has a decent chest floor and could end up making some really nice kids. I am just not a fan of Troubles she is just too narrow for a show doe or show doe producer but I like her personality.


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