# Goat taken, saw mountain lion... now what?



## janecb

So some may know, and others may not, that a baby boer goat went missing a month ago. Due to mysterious circumstances regarding it being day time and a dog taking ill suddenly, I wrote it off as being stolen by two-legged predators for Easter. 

HOWEVER, less than half an hour ago, another went missing, with a lot of screaming on its part. I went to investigate with my mother, and we SAW the mountain lion crouching in a bush about 40~~ feet from the fence, with the carcass. Without being too close, we knew it had to be fairly big, as the baby goat was 40-50 lbs., and it got her over the fence in very little time. It looked like it was defending the kill, as once we had the light on it, it didn't move, and showed basic signs of aggression. It also looked fully grown. 

My question is... what now? Do we look for a guard dog? An older puppy that's been started? A fully trained one? We've had guard dogs in the past, but when we moved, they learned how to jump the fence and would chase people down the driveway, so we had to give them away. We're not in the most rural of places. I have a herd of very valuable breeding and show animals, and losing any would be a devastating loss (especially since they all double as pets). We have guard donkeys, but the boer goats weren't in the pen with them. They got the rest of the herd up and away from the fence, and brayed to alert us. 

We may go to fish and game to try to trap it. This mountain lion was sighted a couple of months back in a suburban area DURING THE DAY, and since it has now taken 1 confirmed, 2 presumed, goats... but as a solution for the long term, would a LGD be a good idea?

Thanks.


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## goathiker

Sss


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## LadySecret

In my opinion, you need at least two adult LGDs (preferably one of the Turkish breeds) to ward off cougars. More would be better. However, in your situation dogs may not be the best choice since you had some that chased neighbors. I have never used guard donkeys before but if I was you, I'd have one in each pen or pasture with goats in it at all times. Maybe that would be enough then... We have cougars here, but they are rarely seen in the flesh. We mostly just see their tracks.


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## ksalvagno

I agree with sss.


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## Lstein

Scary coming that close to your place and yourself!


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## SerenitySquare

goathiker said:


> Sss


mm dont know this one:thinking:


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## melbah1

Yes, notify the fish and wildlife immediately! I don't know what the rules are in California, but in oregon you can shot a cougar that has killed livestock. The Department of fish and wildlife contract out to hunters to shot or trap (depending on what's safe). They should get you help right away.


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## ksalvagno

Shoot, shovel, shut up


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## Lstein

SerenitySquare said:


> mm dont know this one:thinking:


I didn't get it right away either, but when I went out to milk I wondered to myself what I would do...and then it hit me, oh, sss of course lol.



ksalvagno said:


> Shoot, shovel, shut up


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## Lstein

The really scary thing about a lion is that they watch and study you, learn your patterns, and schedule.

A lady I purchased some does from last fall, keeps about 200 or so does and lives in a more remote area (even for ND) by what they call "mountains" (XL hills). Anyway, she was telling me how this lion/lions wait for her to make her rounds with her ranger, checking the goats (she keeps several different herds in various locations), and when the goats are distracted (running towards the ranger, for attention/treats/etc.) the lion would run in right in front of her, within feet, and take a goat and run off again. 

If I remember right, I think she may have even had two doing this. She must live right in between their two territories or something. I don't know what she ever did end up doing though, I know there weren't any guard animals with the goats. But I do think that a hunter or game and fish got one of them.

I agree, check the rules. I don't know exactly what the rules are in ND but i'm sure theres something that gives you the right if its posing a threat to you or your livestock. We are starting to get lions very close to our area, the lady I mentioned before is only about 1.5 hrs away. Probably already here but they haven't attacked any livestock that I know of in my area.


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## happybleats

oh how scary....I would run the donkeys with them for sure until you can take care of the problem...we would do the SSS here too...


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Agree, SSS as soon as you see it again. Keep a gun around at all times. Trapping and relocating is just going to get someones elses livestock eaten, or it will just come back.


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## Greybird

Mountain lions are very, very bad news. It will probably take a new goat about twice a week now that it knows where to find them, because your goats are much easier to catch and kill than the deer which should be its normal prey. You can't fence them out unless you have a covered pen, and they are very capable of killing a single dog, donkey, or llama if they are motivated enough to do it. Several dogs will usually make them leave.

California is being stupid and shortsighted by protecting mountain lions from all forms of hunting - they are multiplying rapidly, the drought is driving them toward human settlements, and the loss to farmers and ranchers is only getting started. 

SSS may very well be your only option. If you've already called the game dept then you will have to be extremely careful if you resort to that option, because they will be watching out for that cat. 
But ... sometimes cats disappear. Because they're cats.


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## Trickyroo

I agree , sss . Because , one , if they even do anything about it , they will trap it , release it somewhere else and it will become someone else's problem.. I hate to see them killed , i think they are gorgeous animals in their own right , but once they figure out livestock is easy game and a quick meal , they won't stop , they aint stupid in that way.
So , yeah , I wouldn't report anything , just take care of business.
Now , if you report it , and they don't do anything right away or can't trap it right away , you can lose more animals in the meantime. 
I don't know the laws in your state , i would hate to see you get fined or worse , but i don't want to see you lose any more animals , thats just terrible. But do check out your rights. I don't know what would be a match for a grown mountain lion , only a bullet IMO. It can take out just about anything it wants to. If it doesn't get the goats it will take what it can , its all fair game to them. 

Stay safe. I don't think seeing them in the daytime is a issue as in sickness , since they really aren't nocturnal creatures and guarding its kill isn't out of the ordinary. But I'm no expert . If the powers that be tell you to call them when you see it next , IMO , by the time they get there it may be too late. If your in your right to SSS , do it , bottom line. 
Im so sorry for your losses honey :hug:


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## packhillboers

Oh no! Considering how difficult the laws are in California concerning the wildlife, I would still contact Fish and Game. We have a good group of game wardens here in the North State in our area that are very helpful and desire to work with the homeowner concerning this issue of Mountain Lions and Coyotes. They know it has become a real problem and do appreciate being made aware of any Mountain Lion activity, and then they can more confirm that there is also an overpopulation of them in California. I know it is sometimes also very frustrating for game wardens in California to work in the laws boundaries, but at least in our area- they are doing the best they can to work on this cougar problem and help to make it easier on livestock/homeowners by getting rid of some of these cats. (Everyone's situation is different) I know that if the law protecting these cats is bigger than us being able to protect our home and family, well... then... something needs to be done. I also know that at least for us.. the game warden lives just down the road and he would be on it quickly and it would be taken care of.


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## TDG-Farms

You either need to kill it or contact your locale fish and wild life agency. They will come out and investigate. They may even send a trapper / hunter out to capture / kill it. You need to do this now if you dont intend to hunt and kill it yourself. A dog at this point will be of little help and would most likely get killed as well. Cougars can hunt and kill single wolves. A dog doesnt stand much of a chance.


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## toth boer goats

All great advice.

I am sorry goats are being taken. 

If the cat is endangering the lives of humans and behaving aggressive towards you, I would get the authorities involved.
Next could be a child.


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## top_goat

First - I'm so sorry for your situation and your losses! We occasionally get a cougar around our place, and knowing they're stalking about is not fun! Last December we actually had a couple of large prints leading off of our front porch!!! 

2nd -- Totally agree with sss - talk to Wildlife Mgmt (or whatever they're called in your state) to learn your rights, inform them of the problem, then proceed as you feel best. The last "s" might be the most critical! 

3rd -- Is there a way to bring your goats into closed pens at night? That way even a few younger dogs could provide a deterrent without being at undue risk themselves. I agree -- single dogs or young dogs out in the open are no match for a cougar if it wants to press its case! Our two LGDs (50/50 Pyr/Anatolian) were only about a year old at the first cougar event (which lasted about a month) but their very loud presence from inside the goat pens helped keep the cat out until it moved on. That single event, coupled with a few wolf visits, was what prompted us to breed our female dog. We couldn't really afford to purchase another 1-2 dogs, so we're raising them up. I don't regret that decision, as these pups (75/25 Pyr/Anatolian) are showing incredible promise! 

I guess the summary of all of this is that dogs (several) may be your best long term deterrent, but kind of like planting a tree, you've got to start somewhere! The longer you wait, the longer it will be before you get the strong deterrence a good team of LGDs provide! 

Best wishes!!!!


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## janecb

Luckily, Fish and Game in our area is very, very helpful with mountain lions. We got someone out this morning, and he found the carcass, so tonight he's staking out to trap it. I learned some interesting things about lion behavior as well. Hopefully he gets it tonight... if not, he said expect another goat to go missing in 4 weeks. 

I'm on the case for LGD's as well. I'm planning on getting a pair of adults, but I'm not getting anything under 6 months. If he gets the lion tonight, I will definitely consider younger dogs. If not, I'll get older dogs and lock the goats in every night until the threat is gone.


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## toth boer goats

Glad they are helping you get the cat, hope no more goats will be taken.


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## top_goat

janecb said:


> Luckily, Fish and Game in our area is very, very helpful with mountain lions. We got someone out this morning, and he found the carcass, so tonight he's staking out to trap it. I learned some interesting things about lion behavior as well. Hopefully he gets it tonight... if not, he said expect another goat to go missing in 4 weeks.


So glad you got such a positive and prompt response! Hope he gets it!

I'd be very interested in learning what you learned about lion behavior! I would expect others would also -- Would you share with us? Thanks!


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## janecb

I know there was more, and if I think of it I'll add it. 

- our lion is making a loop of it's presumed territory; the last baby was taken 4 weeks ago, and it took it that long to come around hunting here again. So if the lion isn't trapped, we can expect it to come around again in 4 weeks or so... 
- our lion is either a young male passing through, or a settled female, based on aforementioned information (most likely a female)
- when a lion makes a kill, they will 'cache' the carcass for later by making a small scrape and lightly burying it. They will also make a nest/bed nearby, to watch over it, as well as to watch for nearby threats. 
- to add to this, they will come back the night after they make a kill to take the rest of the carcass. During the day, they'll sleep next to or near the kill to guard it.
- we live in an area especially favorable to lions - near a hill, densely wooded, and next to a creek 
- building the fence higher (in our case) would cause more problems than it would fix, since the lion would climb something else to get over, and get stuck in the goat pen. The lion would then begin mauling the goats since it has nothing else to do (from what I understand)
- once the lion starts coming around... it keeps coming around, whether often, or not, since the goats become an easy source of prey
- a fully grown lion can get a 250 lb goat over a fence fairly easily 
- our lion isn't huge, but still big enough to get a 50 lb goat over the fence without dragging it, leading to the trapper and our thinking it's either an adolescent male or female settling down

- mountain lions are scary when you shine flashlights on them in the middle of the night and their creepy eyes shine back from the darkness (this wasn't from him, this is just my experience).


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## Trickyroo

janecb said:


> Luckily, Fish and Game in our area is very, very helpful with mountain lions. We got someone out this morning, and he found the carcass, so tonight he's staking out to trap it. I learned some interesting things about lion behavior as well. Hopefully he gets it tonight... if not, he said expect another goat to go missing in 4 weeks.
> 
> I'm on the case for LGD's as well. I'm planning on getting a pair of adults, but I'm not getting anything under 6 months. If he gets the lion tonight, I will definitely consider younger dogs. If not, I'll get older dogs and lock the goats in every night until the threat is gone.


Im glad they are helping , but for them to say , "expect another goat to go missing in 4 weeks" was a bit callous IMO. I would've said , do your job , and i won't be missing anymore goats !

Sometimes they are too enthralled in their sightings that they forget about the pain and loss the animal has caused people. Sometimes animals are over protected , meaning predators. If there is such a overflow of them , something needs to be done *before* people lose livestock and pets and they harm or kill one of us. Like was mentioned , it could be a child next &#8230;.
Sorry , venting...:rant smilie:


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## top_goat

Thanks so much for this info! Extremely helpful! Much of it confirms some of our deductions when we were being stalked. BTW - have you ever heard one scream? Wow. Blood chilling. 

I am especially intrigued by the statement describing the optimal lion habitat. That's us to a "t"! Dense woods, remote, hilly, creek. Oh, goody! :worried:

I hope tomorrow we get the report that your G-man got it! Blessings!


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## top_goat

Trickyroo said:


> Im glad they are helping , but for them to say , "expect another goat to go missing in 4 weeks" was a bit callous IMO. I would've said , do your job , and i won't be missing anymore goats !
> 
> Sometimes they are too enthralled in their sightings that they forget about the pain and loss the animal has caused people. Sometimes animals are over protected , meaning predators. If there is such a overflow of them , something needs to be done *before* people lose livestock and pets and they harm or kill one of us. Like was mentioned , it could be a child next &#8230;.
> Sorry , venting...:rant smilie:


I absolutely agree with the 2nd paragraph of your "vent", Trickyroo, but we might go a bit easier on the G-man. From what I understand, trapping an animal like a cougar is not that easy. Cougar are intelligent, sophisticated predators. Some of the things we experienced during the 4 weeks ours was in the neighborhood would curdle your blood. We had several seasoned hunters out trying to get our gal (we figured it was a female). She was playing cat & mouse with them! We even found her body impression in the humanure pile just 4 feet from our doe pen...we figured she was using that to conceal her scent from the dogs. That is cunning! Eventually the presence of our dogs and men laying wait with guns encouraged her to move on, because in spite of their best efforts and several sightings, they could never get a clear shot. In short -- easier said than done!

All of which makes it that much more important for OP to augment G-man's efforts with her own loss prevention plans, like bringing the goats up at night, security lights, presence of dogs, etc.


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## janecb

He didn't mean it in any rude way. He was simply stating a fact. In fact, he was very optimistic about catching the lion. But he was warning us, just in case, and advising us on what we would have to do if they don't catch the lion. At our old property, we had a couple of stakeouts for lions that killed a lot of goats, and they never showed up. They always knew something was up. It's scary how smart they are. We're in a busy mountain lion area as well; I believe the man who came and checked it out was also out in our area earlier this week after a lion that had killed livestock. It's common to see the lions around here, and they're very good about it, especially in how they handle the people. I actually asked what to expect if they don't catch the lion, hence his response. 

But I absolutely agree with everything you say. It's scary because my younger siblings run around outside, and I'm often doing midnight checks of the goats just to make sure everything's alright. I will say, it is a fair system in place regarding livestock and pets. If a lion attacks your livestock, and you can provide a carcass as proof and bait... then you can stake it out. But there are lions that live separate from humans, and I don't think it would be fair to go hunt them without reason. I do know they're overpopulated, but it's a livestock owners responsibility to have adequate protection... and we didn't. LGD's will be coming home either this weekend, or next week.


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## Trickyroo

I agree its not an easy task , they are smart animals , no doubt.

When reading things , sometimes its hard to figure what tone it is meant to be read in...

My apologies


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## FreedomStarr

Janecb, you are awesome! I love your outlook. It is great to be able to see both sides of the coin. I hope they catch the cat who is getting your goats. I have goats, but wiping out all big predators is not the answer... Just protect what is ours then live and let live.


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## janecb

No news yet. Not sure if this is good or bad... he's still out there to the best of my knowledge.


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## Lstein

I find it amazing that they actually can trap a lion, with how crafty they are. Kudos to them if they get 'em.


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## janecb

Still nothing, and the trapper left... I'm hoping he calls to say what happened. If not, I'm assuming they didn't get the lion. Whatever happens, the fence is being raised, hot wire is being put along the top, and guard dogs are being brought home. So if another goat goes missing, they'll come out again to try and get it.


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## Trickyroo

janecb said:


> Still nothing, and the trapper left... I'm hoping he calls to say what happened. If not, I'm assuming they didn't get the lion. Whatever happens, the fence is being raised, hot wire is being put along the top, and guard dogs are being brought home. So if another goat goes missing, they'll come out again to try and get it.


Stay safe :hug: I would give them a call , at least know where things stand.


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## SerenitySquare

ksalvagno said:


> Shoot, shovel, shut up


thanks, I figured it was something like that but could not find the three s words


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## janecb

Well, the good news is, I think I have everything lined up to visit a pair of LGD's that have been raised working with goats. If everything goes well, they'll come home on Sunday. Luckily, we've been set up for livestock dogs a long time - we just haven't gotten any. They're going to drive the heeler crazy; he thinks the goat herd is HIS, even if they're all also super fun chew toys.

I'll let you know what the trapper says when I talk to him.


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## toth boer goats

Good luck.


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## janecb

They did NOT catch the lion. Dogs coming home tomorrow. Ick.


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## Trickyroo

Oh geez , good luck with the dogs ! Wish they could've got that lion !


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## toth boer goats

Oh wow.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I'd be careful about bringing home adult LGD's. I've heard many stories about LGD's being rehomed to another farm and they attacked their goats because that is not the herd they were raised with to protect. Keep a close eye...


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## TDG-Farms

A trigger for that to happen is often the goats running away in fear of the dogs. As dogs, its an instinct to chase what runs.


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## alyssa

I live in CA too, 35 miles east of Los Angeles in a very heavily populated area. We are half an hour from the nearest "mountains" and there have been 4 reports just this year of mountain lions jumping into people's backyards and killing their dogs. They are getting hungry as we build into their mountains, and that makes them scary bold. In the first report, the lion jumped a 6 foot fence, maimed a full grown German Shepherd, and the family watched from inside as the cougar dragged the dog still half alive back OVER the 6 foot fence. Do not underestimate those guys, they may very well take your new dogs too! Maybe invest in some motion detectors for the outside of the pens that turn on floodlights and/or sound an alarm when they're activated?


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## Trickyroo

Oh my , that is just horrendous  
I agree , but hopefully the dogs will sound off the alarm so further action can be taken against the lions. 
I keep praying they get this dude...


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