# Kiko Goats and Crosses for Packing



## Jake Levi

Has anyone here tried Kikos for packing? Or their crosses? 

I have only seen pictures of them, but they seem like they might work well on a Saanen or Alpine . 

Right now I am seeing few packing prospects for a pack string, and am wondering about just breeding a good cross and getting a stabilized cross to work with. 

I am thinking of a 50% meat goat and 50% dairy, and then going another cross towards which ever is larger to a 5/8s of the one and 3/8s of the other. 

Where I live here is a lot of state and federal forest trails, some is offlimits to pack animals and ORV but much is open to horse trails. 

I only need one or two does that can be milked once a day for household use, so a meat/dairy cross seems to be quite doable. 

Thoughts/Comments?


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## Rex

They are generally on the smaller side. I know males can sometimes reach 300 lbs but most of the size is in the chest and belly making them somewhat barrel shaped. That makes it harder to keep a saddle on. The ones I have seen are also short legged which is also an undesirable trait on the trail.

I'm not saying they can't be used as packgoats, only listing a few reasons they are not as popular as some other breeds.


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## Jake Levi

Hi Rex

Thanks for the reply, 

so do you think a Boer would cross better with Saanens and Alpines for packing? Or stay with the Saanen and Alpines alone?


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## Rex

I personally like the Saanen Alpine crosses the best but several people are having good luck with partial Boer crosses as well.


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## Jake Levi

THe dairy crosses are easy to handle for sure, and more available, strangely here in Northern MI there arnt a lot of goats, but I am going to several of the area fairs and willbe talking to goat people. 

Thaks for the responses.


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## IceDog

My new kid, Hines is a naturally polled 3/4 Saanan 1/4 Alpine. I also have 5 pure alpines. I'm really enjoying Hines and he's growing like a weed! The only draw back is when he's old enough to pack I'm going to be old!  

I'm thinking of keeping him intact and putting him with my 2 Alpine does this fall. If I got any kids they would be 5/8 Alpine & 3/8 Saanen. And by the time they were ready to pack I'll be even OLDER!  

The breeder I got him from has 3 more naturally polled Saanen/Alpine bucklings for $75 each if anyone wants one.

Apparently they sold so quickly that she raised the price! Glad I got Hines when I did! I wanted to buy more but showed (in my case) great restraint and only brought Hines and 2 dozen free range eggs home!


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## Jake Levi

Hi Icedog

Old is relative, 

I am 70, going on 39. 

I do a couple miles a day with my Bloodhound in S&R training, and enjoy hiking and weekend overnights. If we stop, we're stopped. gotta keep on keeping on.

And I am working on what I want for a breeding line of packing goats and home milk. 

I think a 5/8s dairy and 3/8s meat goat should make a great pack animal and also have a couple home milkers.
The question being which meat buck to use for the initial cross. Or may skip the meat cross altogether, we shall see, got fairs to go in august and september. 

So stay your course, you are never too old to enjoy life.


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## ali pearson

I'm curous about this: if you have too much Boer or Kiko in the mix, might you end up with four teats on the does making them much harder to milk? If you want to have an easy milking goat that can also pack, wouldn't Alpine/Saanen be your best bet?


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## Jake Levi

Hi Ali

My first choice is the Saanen/Alpine cross, I wouldnt want any Boer, way too short legged, I'd only want just enough Kiko to give a better muscled animal, and not lose height, or frame. Ideally I'd like to find a Kiko/Saanen buckling to raise out. 

For sure dont want any 4 teated does, they wouldnt stay. 

Right now just wondering what if, while I pursue the right Saanens and Alpines. I could be very happy with them I believe. But will keep my eyes open for the right Kiko cross buckling.


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## turbot

Jake,
Don't discount the Boer crosses. I have an alpine/boer which is arguably my best packer. He is kinda of ornery, not too smart, and not very athletic, but he never quits and always carries the most weight. A big dumb jock. My cross is a 50/50, but a 5/8 alpine would be better. Having said that, I love my saanen. He is the boss in my string and is the most loyal of the bunch. He speaks softly and carries a big stick. Very gentle. I think a Saanen/alpine cross would be the perfect packgoat prospect. My two lamanchas are athletic, loving, very docile and great packers, but have the loudest, most obnoxious voices imaginable. I agree with Rex on the kiko. My experience with them is very limited(1) and I didn't it as a step up by any means. I would stick with the proven breeds, unless you just want to be different. Good luck and take care.

Aaron


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## Jake Levi

HiAaron

I'm not really ruling any breed out, but pics I have seen of Boers donot show the legs I want for a pack goat, I need to see some crosses and hear a lot more about them. If, the Kiko turns out to be shortlegged in the crosses then they are out, the one thing I was wanting in the meat cross is more muscling and keeping the dairy height and length. 

Quite likely the better mix on the meat cross would be a 1/4 to 1/2 of the meat breed and the rest of the dairy of the dairy.

Like you and Rex my first picks are the Saanens and Alpines and their crosses, I suppose I should include the Sables in there too, being a Saanen. 

How tall and heavy is your Boer cross? One thing I am not seeing or reading is the mature size of the meat crosses. 

The Saanens I have had have been great on temperament, and very intelligent. 

Here in MI maybe a tough shortlegged goat could make a good pack goat,


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## turbot

Jake,
My Alpine/Boer cross is about 190 lbs and is very strong. Where he lacks in athletics, he is strong in work ethic. He never quits, always plows through the stream crossing without looking for a place to cross and wants to be with me more than any other goats. He is just a knucklehead and not very smart. He always wants to fight and thinks he his the boss wherever we go. I use my goats for hunting during bow season and I take them with me while I am hunting. When calling in bull elk, he almost always starts thrashing trees and had him try and confront a bull coming in to fight once. The other three goats either froze and watched or they just kept feeding. It is both funny and scary to watch at the same time. I left him in camp with another goat all last year because of this. Alpines seemed to be pretty spirited, and when you add the meat goat in the mix, all intelligence went out the window. I am originally from Northern Michigan and agree that a short-legged goat would not be best in the area I lived in, due to all the timber and blowdowns. I think temperament is more important than muscling in my opinion. I hope you find what you are looking for because any packgoat is still better than no packgoat. Take care.


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## Jake Levi

Hi Aaron

Right now I am just collecting information, I have seen few pack goat pics and about none of the meat crosses so I am just playing in the dark there, for sure attitude is a major factor in any pack goat. 

Is your cross a wether? 

I bow hunt also make my own bows, the last few years primarily Plains style horse bows. It would be nice to pack a buck out with goats instead of dragging to where could put it in a truck. 

I agree, any packgoat beats none at all.


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## IceDog

Do the two types of muscle, fast twitch vs. slow twitch, affect goats? 

Is it something to consider when breeding for a pack goat?


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## vigilguy

FYI, my Saanen/Alpine/Boer cross weighs around 240 lbs, stands 38" tall, and is one of the most agile goats I have. We put 58 lbs (measured) on him last year and he didn't care a bit. He is a wonderful packer.

I bought him from Sweetgoatmama.


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## Jake Levi

Thats a very respectable weight to pack, any pics of him? 

I am very curious and interested in her line. Do you know what the different percentages of each are in him ?


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## vigilguy

I have lots of pictures of him, but I do not have the foggiest clue how to post them here.

Sorry, you will have to ask Carolyn about the percentages. She just knows what I need and then she gets it for me.


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## Jake Levi

I'm hoping that she will post some here, another poster asked for them also. I am slowly doing my homework on lines. 

Right now I have traded my one Alpine off, and have two Saanen wethers, a Saanen doeling and a yearling Saanen, I am hoping to find a nice Alpine buckling this winter or next spring, an even better addition would be one of Carolyns bucklings. 

I am not going to breed either one of these does before next year now, it is looking more and more like moving to NE Wa come spring.


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## sweetgoatmama

On the subject of multiple teats. They are seldom seen in the crosses. And, I have seen three teats on registerd dairy goats so you can't always be sure how things are going to work. The few I have seen are not an issue. 

I am really bad about posting photos. But yes, the fast twitch muscle very slow twitch is important. Otherwise you have a weighlifter type goat, Boer, who can't get out of his own tracks. Too much fast twitch though and his weight bearing ability will be lessened and he will have tendon and ligament problems from carrying weight.
Our crosses tend to run about 1/3-1/4 meat goat and the rest dairy goat, ideally a cross between two types, such as saanen/alpine/ or saanen lamancha. 

We started with an embryo import Boer who had somewhat longer legs than the average boer and bred him to the saanen doe, Helen, who started this whole thing. This cross produced Winter who is a bit short legged, half and half. It also roduced Lazlo who has really decent leg proportions. Fro there we went to some other boer crosses, experimenting. The 1/4 boer seems to be the right amount, but of course that doesn't mean every 1/4 boer will make a great packgoat. Someone commented on the attitude between the two types. That is much more a response to the type of raising as all the boers I've dealt with in this are very sweet. And of course saanens are too. But I like a little alpine in the mix as they have more endurance and bottom to them. Straight boers can be a little lazy due to having to work harder because of the short legs.
These goats were line bred extensively for several years, about 10 so far. Helen is 12 this year and had her last kids this year. She could probably do it again but she deserves a rest. Her daughter at 10 is still going strong and will probably get bred back to JR once more at least. JR is alpine/saanen and she is saanen/boer, 50-50% each.

Our crosses are between 220 and 275 average.


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## Jake Levi

Thanks Carolyn, its appreciated.

The Alpine I just traded is small, good milker and sweet but I want Alpines with longer legs, there are enough around to shop, I may get an Alpine buckling this fall, we'll see.


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## Jake Levi

Going back to the original post, the reason I was wondering about the Kiko is the increased parasite resistance, I am still wondering about that, 

One of the Alpines I am getting will stay a buck, and he has a Alpine wether for a buddy/roomie. The others are Saanens, two wethers and two does, if all goes well this fall will have some Alpine/Saanens next spring to work with.

Life goes on and its better with goats.


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## Jake Levi

Update, as of right now have two Saanen wethers, one Saanen doeling, have one Alpine wether and an Alpine buckling and I expect will also have an Alpine doeling, all to work with over the winter. Will probably train the Buck along with the wethers, he may be a wether next summer and keep a cross buckling, we'll see. 

As of now will be leaving here mid Sept and heading for Cusick Wa, and stopping in Idaho and looking at a couple possible places. 

Life goes on !

And goes better with goats , and Icelandic Chickens !


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## Bob Jones

On stamina, here's a description of our hike on Monday:

"Simply follow the trail. The first 1400 feet of ascent is a steep, but not troublesome, climb along the north side of Tolcate Canyon. After crossing Tolcate Creek, however, the trail steepens considerably. Climb another 2000 feet over merely 1.5 miles to Olympus's South shoulder and take in excellent views to the south and east. Most of the remaining 600 feet to the summit is gained by scrambling over straightforward class 3 terrain. Warning, the smooth quartzite rock that you'll encounter tends to be a bit slick when dry, murderously slippery when wet."

"Standard hiking gear. In the late summer months, no water is found along the route. However, as the route is so short (3.5 miles one way to the summit), you needn't worry too much. Rock shoes are unnecessary, though your footwear should grip well and have enough stability for the punishing, rocky descent."

Pig carried 20# of water, he's probably 150# now and just over a year old. He made the trip without complaint. He isn't as clever as Moe at figuring where to climb, but he was willing to try and followed my lead in the scramble. Moe would have just walked around me finding his own way, but then he climbs vertical horse panels.

Pig is one of SweetGoatMama's.


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## Jake Levi

Hi Bob

and a good time was had by all !

Any pics of Pig?? 

I just received Carolyns' book today, a lot of good reading. I got another one a couple days ago on the hiking trails in the Sawtooth Mtns, over a 170 trails ranked from easy to very hard. I hope to find a lot more such over the next month or two. 

Few if any of our trails here would be ranked difficult, unless they were part of one of the many marathons through here.


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## Jake Levi

An update, I just added an Alpine feb. doeling to the crew, so will have 3 wethers, 2 Saanen and one Alpine, one Saanen doeling and one started Alpine doe, and an Alpine buckling, he's the youngest. 

Yesterday and today have been surfing on Kiko breeders in the NW, I found two in Wa who have some very respectable longer legged bucks, one buckling looks like a Saanen , except for the ears. Both farms have both purebreds and crosses, I might be able to get a cross bucking next year to use for a couple years. We'll see. I have seen two quite shortlegged Kikos, not for me, but also see others that the legs are balanced with the back length. Very athletic looking goats. 

I also read about a registered Kiko/Boer cross, sounds interesting, but the thing that caught my attention the most is 2 yr olds that weigh 200 lbs. These were Kikos , at the place with 200lb 2 yr olds. Its at the west end of the Columbian Basin so in reasonable driving distance of where I will be. 

A lot of homework to do on all of this, but I have my basic start for now, after that we shall see.


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## BwHuntr

Hi, everyone I really enjoy gleaming information from this site. I've been with agriculture my whole life (I'm really old ). I started raising pack goats about 6-7 yrs ago to help with my back while hiking, hunting etc. Unfortunately I haven't actually put a pack on one and hiked yet. My current packing breed I'm working on is percentage toggenburg, spanish, and boer.
I have some 1 1/2 year old's that's as large as their daddy.

So with that I don't see a problem putting kiko into the cross mix


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## Jake Levi

Hi Bowhunter

what is it that draws old archers to packing with goats?? Hoping to pack out an elk with them??? 

Could be.

I've been surfing a lot the past week, found a few breeders with both Kikos and Boers, and they seem, in the pics about the same height, both share a fast growth of meaty offspring. 

I am attracted to the Kiko because of more parasite resistance and a hardy animal in a temperate climate from the Boer but there are certainly a lot of Boers in the northern states. 

I have been thinking of the development of both the Santa Gertrudis Cattle, and the Bonsmara Cattle in S Africa, both have as a base 5/8s of the target parent breed and a 3/8s introduction of another breed to add hardiness and climate tolerance. It has worked very well with both breeds and a few others, the Salorn, and other stabilized hybrid breeds.
Its also been done with horses. 

I am thinking in terms of having a 5/8s dairy base goat, preferably Saanen and/or Alpine and then the 3/8s Kiko for the hardiness and added muscling, trying to keep the dairy frame and scale. 

Something for an archer older then rain to play with when not setting on my rocker in front of the stove.


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## Jake Levi

Well, I am keeping my fingers crossed, yesterday I visited an area farm that has both Boers and a few Kikos, and crosses, if all goes well I will be getting a half Boer/half Kiko doeling, and a half Boer and half Alpine Buckling. They are considering advertising most on Craigs list, if they do sell down I will be adding these two to my little herd.I am keeping my fingers crossed. They dont have the height my Saanens and Alpines do but they sure have the weight and muscling.


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## Jake Levi

I did get the Boer/Alpine Buckling, and the Boer/Kiko Doeling, in weight they compare very well to the other four that are 1-2 months older.

I have also seen a few other breeders Boers and some Kiko crosses, they weigh up about the same, depending on grocerys but from what I am seeing the Kiko does have both longer legs and longer length. 

I am planning on a Kiko buckling in the spring, from a very big framed male, I am much more interested in the larger frame per se then the weight. With a Saanen doe, and Alpine doe and the Boer/Kiko doe it will be an interesting spring and summer watching the cross kids grow out. 

All 3 of course are first time breeders. But right now I am expecting to some good potential packers. Time will tell. 

Just a bit over a month til motoring time. The trailer is coming along well.


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## imported_Tim

I have a boer sannen mix. He is short but a great packer at 3 years old, I got him at a year old. I have an alpine which is also a great packer I got as a kid. My Lamancha is always lagging behind, but he was 2 1/2 years old when I got him so my guess is he didn't bond well. My Lamancha is always looking for when we are turning back. I will never get another older goat. Stick with younger healthy non Cae goats


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## SMaxwell

I have some Kiko's / Crosses that I am training as pack goats. I have not seen much on anyone else using them yet, but there seems to be a lot of interest in them as pack goats. I have a one + year old full blood New Zealand Kiko, a year + old Kiko / Alpine cross that are both shaping up very nicely to be great pack goats. They have been on several hikes and do great. Physically the full Kiko is beefier, but not at all squatty and just as tall a a full Alpine and a full Saanen that are his same age, he seems like he will make a great packer. The Alpine/ Kiko Mix has more of an Alpine body and is also shaping up great.From what I have seen personally, they are not nearly as squatty as boers. I have read that the Kiko is 1/4 Toggenburg, 1/4 Saanen, 1/4 Nubian and 1/4 wild New Zealand goat. I have a couple of kids born this year that are 1/4 Kiko and 3/4 Alpine that have the potential to be awesome packer. All my Kiko's and Kiko crosses seem to have better overall dispositions that my Alpines and Saanen. Here is a snippet on Kiko's from High Uinta Pack Goats website :

"Kiko 
There is also another breed that is for meat production that shows good qualities for packgoats. Bred in the harsh environment of New Zealand the Kiko goat can make a good packer. Bold and strong, they can be friendly and docile when properly raised and trained."


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## Dwite Sharp

*Sabor (Saanan/Boer)*

Here at Paradise Ranch Packgoats we have seven different breeds and quite an assortment of hybrids. We have a couple full blood Boers (grandsons of "Pistolaro",an ABGA National Champion) that are NOT short legged, and are excellent Packgoats. Do not discount the Boer, this breed is capable of adding good things to your breeding's. Do not think for a second that all Boers are the same. If you want the good stuff your gonna have to pay for it, and it won't come from the local auction house or the guy down the road. We have six Sabors (50% Saanan/50% Boer) all HUGE. Clark (10 yrs.) is 41 inches at the withers. Noah & Gabrial (5 yr. old twins ) are 40 inches and over 280 lbs. Short legged, I don't think so ! A quality Boer can add width and "BIG" strength to the equation, but the Boer tends to be in the bottom 50% in intelligence and generally is a follower. The Alpine and Oberhasli tend to be at the top of the intelligence and are two of my favorites.
We will be bringing a number of full blood and hybrid, quality, specifically bred Packgoat kids to the NAPgA rendezvous to be donated to NAPgA's silent auction, all proceeds going to NAPgA. Wanna help the NAPgA cause and get a first class Packgoat ? See you in Utah in June.


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## leahwebster

I have a wonderful purebred Kiko buck if you are still looking for a buck.

http://www.packgoatforum.com/goats/kiko-buck-350-7.html

Billy Bob, who comes to calling his Kiko. He is the mostgentle buck I have ever seen. We love him dearly but my husband says I can onlykeep 5 goats and the rest have to go. I wish hes was a doe.
He is about 150 lbs and is only 2 years old. I have tested him for CAE and CLand he is clean on both. 
I have hitched him to my make-sift cart and he has pulled it with no problem,he is always the first one to come running when I call him.
Words just canâ€™t describe how awesome this boy is. Also, I have smelled somereally bad bucks and he is not repelling at all. I am sure that will changecome rut but we go give Kiko hugs and scratches every day. He loves beingscratched behind the horns.
He is just as tall as my Newfoundland Dog.
I also have Marlin who has a very strong Saanen/ Nubian body
http://www.packgoatforum.com/goats/registry_edit.php?id=6
Marlin was born 2/13/13. He is super friendlyand thrives with the daily attention and loves. His daddy is a registerednubian (very big boy) and his mom is a purebred saanen. She is very largeframed. Marlin has a super personality and ig going to be very big and strong. 
$100 as a buckling 

Leah webster
509-540-7933
helix, Oregon

Email- [email protected]


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## rifleman

*Kiko for packing*

Hello everyone, this is my first day on the forum, and I like what I'm seeing so far. I have a 100% pure Kiko that is a great packer. He's still growing, but I'm guessing he'll end up just a little over 200 pounds. He is extremely intelligent and very tough. He's gentle enough around people, but has fought off mountain lions on two occasions. The main reason I'd discourage most people from getting a Kiko as a pack goat is the wildness factor. The breed was essentially created as a feral breed, then rounded up and sorted out after years of surviving in the wild. On a scale of 1-10 for "wildness," if a typical alpine is a 1 or 2, a Kiko is a solid 11. You can train that out of them, but it does take some work. I also have a 50/50 Boer Savanna cross. I've found that Boer crosses are often lacking a little in agility (jumping), but he's as strong as an ox, and his balance is great. You might also look at pure Savanna goats. They're almost as rangy as a Kiko, and almost as mild mannered as an Alpine. They don't generally get huge, so that will affect how much weight they can pack, and they tend to be late bloomers when it comes to muscling out, but they do have some very desirable traits as well.


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## leahwebster

*Kiko Buck, Kiko Packgoats*

I have a kiko buck who is absolutely AWESOME! He lays on the ground and my 5 year old just lays right on him like a pillow. I wish I didnt have to sell him but my husband said I have to get down to 5 goats so they need to all be does. 
here is his picture album he is a beautiful buckskin color with impressive horns.
https://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/media/set/?set=a.10200691513043617.1073741830.1634925273&type=3

When I sit down in the field he is always the first one to come see me. I have worked with him and my makeshift cart, which he handled wonderfully. He is comming 3 years old and is about 150-175, he will keep growing Im sure. I am asking $200 OBO

I would rather him go to a good family than the freezer so please make an offer
email leahwebster(a)msn.com or call 509-540-7933


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## TOU

Neat animals and interesting to think about. After seeing a very mature male with is Lonnnnnnnnnnng horizontal horns, 
I have decided these are the Texas Long Horns of Goats.

I am convinced if you are to have these for Pack Goats it would be best to keep them hornless. Especially when they get going to fast down hill...they are likely to sweep you off the trail. LOL


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## TOU

Bump for an interesting thread from the old PackGoatForum.


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## bluespade00

In more ways than just the horns.


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