# wormers: oral or SQ or pour on?



## billmac (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm going to do a FAMACHA check on my sheep and goats, but thus far I have never wormed them myself. I have had the animals a little over a year (except the kids and lambs)

Last year my pygmys had a bad case of scabs all over their bodies, and the vet gave the ivermectin subcutaneously. It worked fine. I haven't done anything with parasite management since them.

In anticipation, I got some Ivomec injectable from the vet. But a quick scan of goat related web sites says to give this orally instead of by injection? Is that right? And why? What dosage?

I don't know what the FAMACHA test will reveal, but one of my nubian does has small scabs on her neck and back, so the mites may be back.

I also have eprinex pour on (it's actually not eprinex, but the Tractor Supply equivalent). Are there cases where this is more effective?

Any help is appreciated.


----------



## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

From what I've read, its actually best to give injectable wormers by injection because that way you know exactly how much they are getting, that they actually got it, and by giving it by injection it allows the wormer to go in and penetrate all body systems where worms could be hiding. Its simply more effective than orally or pour ons. I just started using Ivomec Plus injectable after using Valbazen and I'm seeing a HUGE difference in the girls. I still plan on using Valbazen to treat tapeworms but I'm switching to IP for a general wormer.


----------



## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

I use the pour-on for mites.....had a time with them this spring and it was the only thing that worked for me......as far as worms I give injectable ivermectin orally.


----------



## glenolam (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm going by what I think is correct - if someone with more experience knows different, please chime in and correct me :wink:

Giving it subq will permit a slow release of the wormer; giving it orally creates a quick kill of worms that are attached to the goat, which is why you should always follow up oral wormers with an additional dose 10 days later to kill any eggs or larve that remain.

If you notice your FAMACHA score is low, oral dose is the way to go, _assuming_ your goat isn't at level 5, which is a complete white out. An oral dose _MAY OR MAY NOT_ kill your goat, because killing off all worms at once may cause the goat to bleed internally.

Ivomec is said to work for mites as well, but there's different opinions on what kills the mites better - orally or subq. My little pygmy gal was at about a level 3 FAMACHA score and had mites. Luckly for me, 2 rounds of ivomec inj given orally cleared her right up and she looks awesome! You can also try Sevin Dust (in the gardening section) or some other type of livestock dust - I found some random livestock mite dust at TSC and decided to give it a try. I think it caused her to be a little sensitive, but I only had to apply it once and I could see the little buggers coming off an hour later.


----------



## pelicanacresMN (Dec 29, 2009)

I alternate between Mollys Herbal Dewormer & Ivermectin used orally. I use the Ivermectin 1cc/40 pounds. Fiasco Farm website says 1cc/50 but 1cc/34 is also starting to be used with good success, so I dose in the middle of that. Here is a link: http://fiascofarm.com/goats/wormers.htm#ivomec I use a syrince with no needle & squirt it back to their throat, then hold their head up for a second while they swallow. 
The herbal one has 2 different formulas...I mix them with water in a syringe & squirt that in their mouth--some of the goats love it. Formula #1 is used for 3 days the first week, then Formula #2 is used once a week for multiple weeks.


----------



## RockyRidgeBoers (Jun 25, 2010)

We use ivomec 1 % injectible orally at a 1cc to 50lb. we also do are own fecals to make sure are wormers and dosing are working. As mentioned above the web site fiasco farms has really good info on doing your own fecals.


----------



## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

Doing your own fecals is also a great science project for kids or a teaching activity for 4H / FFA etc. x2 on the fiasco farm instructions. That's where we learned to do our own. Takes a pretty good microscope though...


----------



## DPW (Mar 13, 2010)

Lots of info on this subject here. Lots!

http://www.scsrpc.org/


----------



## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

The SCSRPC is no longer recommending Cydectin as an injectable.

They originally recommended Cydectin as an injectable because it had a "superior pharmacokinetic profile" when injected, which only means that the animal's blood levels of moxidectin were higher when it was injected, versus if you dosed it orally....but that's all there ever was to it. The original recommendation completely ignored the fact that previous studies had indicated that macrolides (Ivomec, Dectomax, Eprinex, Cydectin) actually killed BETTER through direct external contact with the parasite when given orally, and *assumed* that higher blood levels would lead to better killing power.

There as no evidence to that effect in terms of fecal egg counts, worm counts on necropsied goats, etc...it was strictly about blood levels, and the assumption that higher blood levels translated to a better kill.

Then FARAD -- the farm animal residue avoidance databank (aka, USDA) -- came out with 130-140 day meat withdrawal times on goats after the use of injectable moxidectin (Cydectin).. Since the SCSRPC *could not prove* that Cydectin was more effective at actually killing worms when given as an injection, and since using it orally had a much shorter withdrawal time...they backpedaled and withdrew their original recommendation. 

They now recommend moxidectin as a drench.

Thing is, any injection -- be it Cydectin, Dectomax, or Ivomec -- is going to lead to higher blood levels than when they're dosed orally, and that's all SCSRPC was saying about injecting moxidectin versus drenchin it when they referred to it's "superior pharmacokinetic profile" when given as an injection.. In researching all this, I actually ran across SEVERAL studies which said that very thing about ivermectin...that blood levels were higher when injected, versus drenched.

Big deal.

As goat producers, we all *know* what happens to worms when you inject Ivomec at the cattle labelled dose in goats -- NOTHING. We give it orally, because we know it works better when given orally. I have no doubt that injecting Ivomec at the 1ml/110lb dose probably leads to blood levels that are equal or better than giving 3-4x that orally -- yet, injecting it at the label dose is futile where giving the 3-4x dose orally actually kills worms.

Having said all that, I will never inject Cydectin again. Thankfully, I only injected a handful before coming to the conclusion that it just wasn't doing as well that way, which is what caused me to go poking around for answers.. I'll definitely be using the injectable as an oral drench @ 1ml/50lbs.. And when that stops working, I'll up that dosage until it works again -- so on, so forth, just like we've all done with ivermectin in the past.


----------



## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

I agree with cmjust0.....I have also been told that injecting wormers actually speeds up the whole resistance issue.......my personal theory is fecal, fecal, fecal and know what worms your dealig with so you know what wormer to use depending on where your live.....wormers that work for us in the north doesn't work in the south.....they don't get the freezes in the winter that we do....but they also don't have the cool weather worms that we have.


----------



## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

I believe it does speed up resistance.. The "PK" (pharmacokinetic) studies SCSRPC used to justify their position only measured blood levels, and they *claimed* that it was no more persistant than if it were given orally.

I personally believe it *is* more persistant -- considerably more persistant -- when injected than when given orally.. The WDT from FARAD seems to lend some validity to that belief, too. 

And low-level persistance absolutely leads to resistance, because if your goat has low levels of moxidectin running through it's veins for months, it's only killing the most susceptible worms you have.. That, of course, leaves the more resistant worms behind to continue contaminating the pasture.

Not great.

BTW...you mention winter freezes...I've been doing a lot of studying up lately on barberpoles over the past several months, and what I'm finding is that if there's any ***** at all in the barberpole's armor, it would seem to be their relative inefficiency at overwintering as eggs/larvae on pasture. Time and again, I've read that barberpoles primarily overwinter in the host animal, and that the threat of early Spring pasture contamination is negligable....that it's really nothing to be concerned with. I believe it's true, considering the barberpole is far more prone to go into hypobiosis than any other worm.. Worms which, incidentally, are generally considered to be better at overwintering on pasture. 

Think about that this winter as you stand in the freezing cold, looking over your herd...if my thinking is correct, it would mean that virtually 100% of the barberpole worms ON YOUR WHOLE PROPERTY are hiding right under your nose...right there inside the animals themselves..

If you're like me, that might put you in a mind of stumbling upon a nest covered with wasps on a 40-degree early Spring evening...they're not hurting anything at that particular moment in time, but you know they'll be a huge pain come summer. And there they are...just sitting there...vulnerable...waiting to be decimated.

Think about it..


----------



## DPW (Mar 13, 2010)

Sent an e-mail to Steve Hart at Langston University. Also a member of SCSRPC. Asked when they made a recommendation of injecting Cydectin for parasite control in goats. Here is a small portion of his reply.

_"This Cydectin thing has been controversial. I am a member of the SCSRPC, but was not in favor of changing the route of administration to injectable. It was based on a committee recommendation (committee of 3 parasitologists) who acted based on one publication (data in paper were convincing). 
However, my opinion was that we had used Cydectin at half the sheep dose and had 100% fecal egg count reduction (this was in 2000 before anyone thought about using Cydectin in goats). I did not see reason to change it because our fecal egg count reductions were very good with oral dosing. Also, we had preached for years to not inject dewormers and then we change which would send a confusing message to producers.
..... Like any human organization, we are not perfect" _

So yes, at one time the SCSRPC did recommend injecting Cydectin to control parasites in goats. What, six, eight, ten years ago? Upon further research they changed their opinions. 
I still believe that the SCSRPC web site has more info about parasite control in small ruminants than you'll find at any other site. Research is on going. With the resistance to anthelmintics becoming more of a problem I have no doubt that minds, opinions, theories and recomendations will continue to change over time.
Steve Hart let me know that a committee is being formed to update their web site. He could not tell me when this will happen. Apparently the 27 members, from Texas to South Africa, that make up the SCSRPC have lives outside that organization.
If you're interested in learning about the control of parasites in your goats click on this link.
http://www.scsrpc.org/


----------

