# Bottle Jaw?



## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

I had asked about a lump in my does neck, and no-one seemed to know what it was, and now I'm reading it could be "bottle jaw" and she should be de-wormed.
I want to use the horse Safeguard on her, but she's nursing and I don't know if it's safe. The goat Safeguard says not to use on lactating goats.
Have you ever heard of bottle jaw, and what can I use to de-worm her? Her kids are only 4 days old.
Also would some Fastrack gel do her any good? The only symptom we've notice is a little constipation.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

when they say not use it on lactating animals it means for human consumption. It is fine for the kids.

I wouldn't use safeguard though since bottle jaw is from the barbar poll worm which safeguard in most places does not treat. 

Best to use Ivermectin or cydectin etc to treat your doe. And yes you can give it to her while she is nursing her kids.

Fastrack will help her immune system so yes you can give her some of the gel.


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

Here's all I have on hand, will any fo these work and how much.
Ivermectin pour-on for cattle
IverEase on-feed wormer for horses
If not, what exactly should I get?


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## rgbdab (Nov 26, 2007)

And understand that the bottlejaw is a symptom of anemia due to the barber pole worms attaching to their stomache and sucking blood. They don't get thin like they would with tape worms and by the time they show symptoms they are very anemic. I would check the gumsand/or under the eyelids of all your goats to see if they are pink which is normal and if not they need to be wormed immediately and then again in 10 days. Other symptoms of anemia may include diarrhea, loss of appetite and fatigue. I lost 2 goats and very nearly another last year to barber pole worms and anemia. I spent over a thousand dollars on the 3 trying to save them with transfusions and still lost 2. 
She could use some iron supplement, I used geritol. Mine love raisins and they have iron. AND 1 of the ones I lost was a 6 week old kid that I didn't worm because I was advised not to since it was so young. But if the kid is nibbling on the ground, it can pick up worm eggs even though it is really not eating yet so I would worm it also if gums are pale. Good luck, Denise


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

personally I would buy the injectable ivermectin and give it orally. 1cc per 20lbs

or I believe cydectin works as well - not sure of the dosage for that one.


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

I looked it up in the TSC catalog, and there is a 50,200, and 500, which one should I get?


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## getchagoat (Julie) (Oct 5, 2007)

I didn't think it was bottlejaw because the way you described the lumps. You can give the ivermectin at 1cc per 30# I believe. Reworm in 7 to 10 days. Don't go over the 10 days. I prefer Cydectin, but Ivermectin is in the same class.

Injectable iron produces the fastest results. You can give it orally - 2cc twice a day or 2cc once a day IM. Most are more comfortable with oral.

If you don't want to use that, get some Red Cell - labeled for horses. Give 15cc or so twice a day orally. Put molasses in her water. Being an adult, she'll have a better chance. Do check the eyelids. That's the indicator for when you should worm your goats. Can you post a picture of her??


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

if you are asking about the injectable ivermection - I bought a generic brand of it from jeffers and it works just find. It was cheeper. So you can look into that.

The amount you buy depends on how much you want to spend an how much you will need for your goats.

I have minis so I dont' need as much and I dont' worm unless they are pale. So I need less wormer to get me through a year then someone with boers or standard dairy goats.


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

I thought the different numbers incicated the strength of the stuff. What a moron!!!
I'm not sure it's bottlejaw, her gums and eyelids look pink, but the lumps, her constipation and the fact after she delivered we were shocked at how thin she looked, and maybe, I'm thinking she might not be producing enough milk for 3 babies as they can't seem to get full. Those were all indications, and she should be wormed after delivery anyway, so that's what we're going to do. 
You are all so helpful, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.
Any more thoughts, I can use all the help I can get.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

From the way you describe it it sounds more like a milk goiter to me, which is perfectly harmless. Its quite commen in nursing kids. 
Where on her neck is it located? Under her throat on her neck? Is it a large somewhat squishy bump?
If you're still worried about worms worm mom, kids will get it through the milk. Make sure you don't drink her milk for ten days.
Or are there multiple lumps? If she looks pink in her membranes then its probably not worms or bottle jaw. Do you have any pictures of the lumps? We may be able to get a better idea if we see them.
beth


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

This IS the mom I'm talking about. I've seen the milk goiter in kids and know what it looks like and is harmless, but I am worried about the mom. I've never seen lumps like this before. It's the size of an egg, off to one side but under the jawline.
I don't thisk worming her cant hurt anyway.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

What about CL? I have never had a goat with lumps before, so I don't know what else it could be... Has it ever opened up?


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Ah im sorry i thought it was the kid you were worried about. Can you send me pictures. There are a few likely suspects but i would really need to see where the lump is to rule out a couple of things. What kind of goat is she? Also, when did the lump apear? before or after she kidded? The first thing that is popping into my mind is CL, which is bacteria infection of the lymph nodes. It apears as an abcess. A goat can carry it for a long time and one would never know about it. A stressful situation such as kidding can casue an abcess to form. One of the more commen places that abcess forms is on the neck under the ear. There can also be internal abcess' that set up in the brain spinal chord lungs and spleen.
Boer goats seems to be one of the more commen breeds that is seen in. At least from cases i have seen thats the case. i don't know why.
beth


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

are there any new things developing with this case? Have you found anything new out about her lumps? Im curious to know.
beth


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

Nothing new really, we wormed her with Ivomec on Tuesday. 
Lump is the same, but it just isn't like an abcess. It's large and loose feeling and totally covered by hair. I will have to try and get a picture tomorrow.
Her appetite is good, and all the normal "eliminations", behavior is normal.
Like I said I'll try and get a picture tomorrow to show you.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Is it hard? or soft squishy ans warmer then areas around it? A lot of abcess continue to grow hair over them until they are ready to burst.
thanks for the update i will look for the pictures.
beth


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

Here's the picture. What do you think? http://s57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/ ... yslump.jpg


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

yah that is big, wow. No that isn't bottle jaw.

here are some pictures of bottle jaw:
http://images.google.com/images?sourcei ... a=N&tab=wi

and while doing that I found this picture:
http://members.psyber.com/macgoats/CLheadSites.gif

it looks like your daisy has a swelling of the thyroid gland.

here is where the image is located - scroll down about 1/3 of the page.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26sa%3DN


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

If you give the lump a tap and it "ripples", then that usually a sign that it is fluid filled. Cl lumps are firm from the get go- at least the ones my doe had always were. 
It could be a hematoma which is a blood filled swelling that happens when a blood vessel is broken under the skin and the blood pools into an area. 
Having said that, one of the spots my doe developed an abscess was on her neck in front on her jaw.
As long as you catch any abscess before it breaks open, nothing can spread from it. So waiting til the hair falls off seems a good choice to me. No sense opening it up if you can drain anything yet anyway.


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

I think you may be right Stacey, but I don't really see what to do about it. Feed her iodized salt, or what?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I will see if I can find some information on it.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

In my med book I found some very good information.

Simply put: thyroid enlargement is due to an idodine deficency. 
Also due to lack or low selenium in the diet (which helps the goat absorb iodine).

Preventitive Treatment is a trace mineral supplement that contains iodine. 
THis should be their only sorce of salt. Iodized salt containing 0.007 to 0.01% iodine, preferably in the iodate form.

Treamet for a doe in last trimester is through individual iodine supplement, 
painiting adult animals with iodine (Lugol's Iodine 2 ml weekly) 
or drenching with potassium iodine (200-300 mg by mouth [PO] once during late gestration.


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

Thanks, and from what I've read, it's a miracle we had 3 healthy goats from her!!
I think I'll call the vet and see what he says.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

I have spent a lot of my afternoon reading on iodine deficiancy in goats, sinse we are experiencing high winds and rain there isn't much i can do outside. 
From what i have read, swollen thyroid glands are actually very difficult to detect by a glance, you really can't see the swelling. unless its a very severe case. Kids born to iodine deficiant mothers often have very little fur covering are weak lack a sucking instinct and often die within a few hours of birth, or are still born.
this is so far the best information i have found on iodine deficiancy. A lot of the cases they refere to sheep but the symptoms are the same in goats
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/vro/vrosi ... %20ch7.pdf
this study was done in victoria
here is another good artical
http://books.google.com/books?id=nWCLpQ ... z90Yi3A3nA
a commen symptom i read about in that artical was that kids were born with little to no very course hair sparsly covering their bodies. the skin apeared thicker then normal and there were scaly skin and skin lesions.
here is another good artical
http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/We ... SKA-4ZLVN4

From what you describe i would really look into CL for her. You can have your vet draw blood and it is just a simple blood test that you can do through WSU. the cost of it is only $3.50 and a ten dollar processing fee.

She apears to be healthy and the kids don't seem to be showing any signs of iodine deficiancy. You said the lump apeared right before kidding right?
When i look at the picture you posted in the pictures that i compaired her to with the iodine deficiant goats its in the wrong spot. They apear to have more of a swelling rather then a bump that extends under the throat latch and up on one or both sides of the jaw line.

Good luck
beth


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## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

here is a picture from a goat with cl
http://sheepandgoat.com/images/diseases/goatabscess.jpg
you said in a previous post that this goat is also very thin?
problem with cl is that they can also be internal and goats with external abcsess most likely have them inside as well.
i would suggest to quarantine her and have her tested.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

I would go with what susanne said. Even thought your doe isn't showing signs of hair loss on the abcess yet this is a little more advanced. As she said if this is CL then she can have internal abcess' on her lungs and other oregons. Couging can spread the disease, its rare but it can happen. I would quarenteen her and her kids for now. It would be great to have her tested and find out were wrong about the whole CL thing. But this is the closest thing to what you doe looks like she has. Her being really thin could be that she just had triplets. But the fact that you mentioned that this abcess apeared right around kidding time has me a little worried, as high stress situations such as kidding can bring out the abcess'
beth


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

If the swelling is not firm, but ripple or shakes when touched, I can't think it is CL. All the CL abscesses that my one goat had were firm and slow growing. 
That chart yhat Stacey posted seem to cover what this might be. It will be interesting to hear what the vet thinks.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Im hoping for her and the goats sake its not CL. But if you look at the picture of where the diagram shows the thyroid glands the swelling is in the wrong spot. The thyroid glands are located underneath and on either side of then windpipe. the bump on the does neck is much higher then where then thyroad glands are located.
this has a good diagram of where the thyroids are located
http://www.imagecyte.com/milkgoiter.html
if you scroll down to the fourth page of this site (they have it labeled as 38) there is a picture of a swelling of the thyroad gland. Very different looking from what your doe has.
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/vro/vrosi ... %20ch7.pdf
You can also have the pus of the abcess tested easily by a vet. A CL abcess tends to have thick cheesy like pus that often doesn't have a smell. 
this page has a good diagram of both
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/artic ... nitis.html
beth


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

Dutch- you know, if it bothers you too much, you can have the contents of the swelling aspirated by the vet and cultured prior to the thing bursting. My vet did that with the CL goat I had- she couldn't draw the pus from the abscess because it was too thick but she did inject some sterile water into it than withdrew some of the water mixed with pus- it was then cultured.
Whatever it is, I hope it doesn't cause you any real problems.


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

I was away on family business for 3 days, but now that I'm back, I'm thinking maybe it is CL. It looks kind of like the picture that was posted, and the hair is starting to come off.
I already have her isolated because of her just having the babies, and I don't think I can wait any longer and must have the Vet our a.s.a.p.
Can her babies get it?


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

There is testimony saying that the babies can get it through the milk but i don;t know how much proof there is to back this statement up. They can carry internal abcess' for years and you have no idea that they have the disease. But i think that blood testing the babies before they are six months to a year is inacurate just like testing for CAE before six months to a year.
I will do some more reading on it for you. Im very interested to see what your vet says.
beth


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## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

the kids will get it if there is an abscess in the udder or if the doe has internal lumps that you can't see. 
i would separate her at a location that can easily be cleaned and disinfected. the best would be if this quarantine pen does not need to be used for goats for several months. keep a very close eye on the abcsess. you need to take the kids away from her before it opens up. it is the puss that is very contagious. wear gloves if you have to handle her as this is a disease humans can get too. talk with your vet about a vaccination program to save your other goats and the kids.
very sorry this happens to you.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

don't jump to conclusions before you have the pus tested but it is always good to take precautions just in case. 

And I do recomend you test that pus!


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Like other said test the pus. You want to make sure this is what it is before you start pulling your hair out and making yourself crazy. Their is a suposed cvaccine for the CL disease. The only problems i have heard with it is that once you have given the vaccine your goat will test positive for life. The vaccine is made out of somerthing from the disease itself. Kind of like anti venom is made from snake venom. I don't know all the details on it. But the test cannot determine the difference between the vaccine and the actual disease. Now if the vaccine were one hundred percent then it wouldn't be a problem, and they may be getting close to that. I have never really looked into it. But if its only say seventy five percent as to it will cure it before they have it, i would say its not worth it. We have gone to testing our goats for CL only every two years now, we check does everyday at feeding time for anything abnormal. Of course depending on how many goats you have this can be time consuming, but i only own eleven right now, my does get a quick run over with my hands when they are on the milk stand kids and bucks get the smae in their pens. I pick up each foot and check for foot rot. This is just my simple daily health check, and it gets them used to being touched all over. 
But like Stacey said, test the pus and get the results back before we jump to anything major. But for now i think you did right by seperating her. 
Were there any other animals that you got from the same place that you got this one?
Hope this helps
beth


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

Well, I had to be away for 3 days again, and when I came back, the hair was starting to fall off the lump. I called the vet and he was here within just a few hours.
He cut it open and drained it, (very messy, and painful), he took a sample for testing, but said it may be a week before he gets the result. He thought it did look like CL, although the lump was larger than usual.
I'm very upset by this, and wondering how she could get it. We have had a "closed" herd of 4 goats for 3 years now. Nothing or no-one has been around them. 
The good news is, it was drained before it ruptured, so hopefully the babies are safe. We have to flush and medicate the open wound for a week. Also it's good she just gave birth and we've had her separated from the others for almost 4 weeks. The vet said the others look very healthy, and we checked for lumps and bumps.
I'll let you know as soon as I hear something.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

no vet can look at pus and say it is CL. So I would wait for the results of the test. 

Where is he sending the pus to? I believe the best one for testing pus for CL is in washington - I could be wrong on that.


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

CL can be slow in showing up. But don't get too worried until the results come back. It is possible that it is something else- in fact probable that it is.
I take CL very seriously as I ended up putting down a very sweet goat because she had it sooooo bad. I think any suspicious abscess should be cultured to check it- so you have certainly taken what steps you can to help your goats.
Even if she has CL you do have some choices. But wait to see for sure. It is not always bad news.
I sympathize with the stress this must be causing -I've been there.


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

They were sending the sample to Michigan State University, which has an amazing veterinary program. They are the holy grail of animal medicine in this area.


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## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

uc davis is specialized in cl testing. for not all too long, wsu would send blood to uc davis for testing. 
pus from a cl abscess has a very distinctive look. if the vet is experienced enough he can tell his suspicion. to make sure he is right, he send a sample off. 
kidding is the perfect time to bring symptoms up in a doe. timing, location, and look of it , there is only a small chance it is something else.


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## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

dutch where did your animals come from? i see you are in michigan like me. where in MI are you?


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

I'm in southern central Mi. The town is Hillsdale, but we're at the bottom end of it, only 5 mi. from Ohio.
I got the goats from an Amish goat farm not far from here, in June of 05, they were 4 mos. old.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

If this comes back positive for CL i would suggest running a blood test on your other three goats. Chances are if this is what it is she has had it sinse you got her, CL can lay dorment for a long time. It may be that she had internal abcess' that are now showing up as external abcess' from the stress of kidding. Has this doe ever had babies before? 
I don't know if this is true or not but i have read before that CL can lay dormant in the ground for years. If there were goats on your property that were psoitive for CL before you moved there, and they had an abcess break open and the pus got on the ground your goats can pick it up that way. But like i said i don't know how much evidence there is to back that up. 
If this turns out to be what this is i think i would contact the previous owners to find out if they have ever had any problems with it.
Hope this Helps, im thinking about you and have my fingers crossed.
beth


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

This is the second time for her having kids. She had twins last April. This breeding was sooner than we wanted, but we had a very determined billy, and it just happened to be her day.
Our land was a vacant corn field when we bought it, so no previous goats.
As far as the previous owners, they are Amish, with hundreds of goats. If one get sick or hurt, they just put it down. They don't call vets, or have blood tests. 
I'm just hoping for the best, and being very careful with her. Thanks for the good thoughts!


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

hmm thats very interesting. It will be interesting to see how the results come back. When he flushed the abcess did he do it into a container rather then onto the ground or your barn floor?
beth


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

Michigan State is a great school-I'll keep my fingers crossed that it's just a plain old infection rather than CL.


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

When the vet was here, we put her up on the hoof trimming stand, and draped the stand and floor with plastic garbage bags. It worked perfectly to contain all the fluid, then it all went into the trash. He was also very ccareful to hose down his boots out in the driveway, where the goats never go.
This particular vet also has quite a large number of goats of his own, so I was glad to have him.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

thats good. Always great to have a vet that knows something about goats.
beth


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

ws wondering if you had any results back on your doe yet? Im crossing my fingers for you and her.
beth


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

We haven't heard from the vet yet, but I will be sure and write a post when I do. 
Thank you for caring, Beth


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## alyssa_romine (Oct 5, 2007)

you should hear back soon


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

I got the culture report today. It's not CL, but I don't know what it is. They call it "Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis", which sounds very serious, but I can't really find any info on what it is exacly, what causes it, and what to do about it.

I will call the vet to get some more information, if no-one here knows about it, but have you ever heard of it?


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

From Veterinary Research:

" Abstract - Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis is the etiological agent of caseous lymphadenitis (CLA), a common disease in small ruminant populations throughout the world. Once established, this disease is difficult to eradicate because drug therapy is not effective and because the clinical detection of infected animals is of limited efficiency. We reviewed the microbiological, biochemical and taxonomic features of C. pseudotuberculosis, general aspects of infection, the main virulence determinants and currently available commercial vaccines. We also examined the current molecular strategies for the study of virulence in C. pseudotuberculosis, including the latest research on the identification of novel virulence factors and genes, which will help us to better understand the biology of this microorganism. This knowledge may also contribute to the development of improved CLA vaccines, including subunit and DNA-based types, as well as to improve the diagnosis, treatment and control of this disease."


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

So it IS "CL"!
Now what do I do?


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Aeginaea said:


> From Veterinary Research:
> 
> " Abstract - Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis is the etiological agent of caseous lymphadenitis (CLA), a common disease in small ruminant populations throughout the world. Once established, this disease is difficult to eradicate because drug therapy is not effective and because the clinical detection of infected animals is of limited efficiency. We reviewed the microbiological, biochemical and taxonomic features of C. pseudotuberculosis, general aspects of infection, the main virulence determinants and currently available commercial vaccines. We also examined the current molecular strategies for the study of virulence in C. pseudotuberculosis, including the latest research on the identification of novel virulence factors and genes, which will help us to better understand the biology of this microorganism. This knowledge may also contribute to the development of improved CLA vaccines, including subunit and DNA-based types, as well as to improve the diagnosis, treatment and control of this disease."


WOW, that is a lot of stuff that is totally Greek to me. Can you please put itn plain English for the rest of us?


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

Sorry, Lori! Most of it is Greek (or possible PigLatin!) to me, too. The important part is:
"Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis is the etiological agent of caseous lymphadenitis (CLA), a common disease in small ruminant populations throughout the world." It is what causes CL.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

OK, so does that mean that her goat HAS CL?


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## alyssa_romine (Oct 5, 2007)

basically...that is what it sounds like to me


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## KikoFaerie (Jan 21, 2008)

It seems so. And while I can tell you all the "text book" info for treating it, I believe nothing beats experience, so I hope all those who have dealt with this will give a holler and help you out!


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Yuck, wow im really sorry ypu have to go through all of this. In my mind no goat owner should have to. Especially one that has been responsible. 
Now that the abcess is open i would keep her seperate from everyone else. I would also have blood tests run on all of the other goats. 
I don't want to sound extreme as im sure that you love your animals and they are pets and friends, but a lot of people who find out they have Cl will simply put the animal down and then burn the carcus. 
let me see if i can find some other alternatives and see if i can find some more info on treating it for you. 
Im so sorry you have t deal with all this.
beth


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm sorry that you have this too- It depends on your goals and how much you want to deal with this problem.
Some goats have maybe one abscess in their life others get abscess after abscess.
You will have people tell you it is nothing and don't bother with it and others tell you that they would cull anyanimal who has it. It's a real hot issue because goats rarely die young over this but they can spread it all over the place.
One of the first two goats I had had it very badly- I did end up putting her down and went through a lot of misery before that.
What is your goal with your goats?

Please be careful about coming into contact with the pus too- I have an abscess (actually now a group of abscesses) on my finger that started when I was cleaning out an abscess on that goat. I have had it cultured umteen times and still don't know what I have. They get better on strong antibiotics of which I have had courses of 30 days 2 seperate times but they start growing again after the drugs are stopped. are stopped. 

Please feel free to PM me if I can anwer any questions.


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## dutch (Oct 8, 2007)

For now, I'm just going to wait and see. I only have 4 goats. If I had alot and it was my "business", I would probably put her down to protect the herd. She is and has been separated because of having the triplets 4 weeks ago. 
It has also been suggested that the stress of pregnancy and birth, (she originally had quads, but 1 didn't make it), could have had something to do with it.
I have to get rid of all my goats this year, as we need the pastures for our growing Highland cattle herd, but I will wait til the other 3 have their kids in April, then decide what to do with her.
The abcess closed and healed very quickly, with the medication the vet gave us, so there has been virtually no oozing or leaking, which is a very good thing.
Thanks to everyone for their help and concern. Goat people are the BEST!


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