# Banded horns went bad - still recovering



## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

Yesterday had the vet out to band horns. This morning I find 1 doeling with the whole horn cap slipped off the bone. Bone exposed sticking up out of head. 
I thought it must be a freak accident. Vet came back this morning while working on it the other slipped off. She decided to cut the bone, but not down to the sinus. Then I watched 1 slip off two other goats. I am so regretful of this situation. DH blames the vet, but everything I researched online is exactly how she did it. She was below the hairline, and taped on in place. She did use 2 bands, but I've seen people state they used up to 4.

UPDATE. I wrote the above hours ago but never posted (about 8 hours ago). 
My baby girl with the cut horns died tonight. Vet came back said "shock" we tried steroids, fluids iv, lacta ringers subq and a heating pad... temp 99.6
I never read anything bad about banding anywhere online. Never did I read that it could slip, or worse that they could die. I am so heart broken and sick.

Since I never read a single thing bad happening with banding (many people saying never lost a goat this way) I thought it important to tell you what happened.
Dotty was my lovey girl, my big mouth and turning into a herd queen. My husband loved her and was going to show her himself. My heart is broken. His heart is broken and I regret this more than I can ever express.

I have 3 more goats done the same way in the barn right now, please pray for them dispite my stupidity.


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## peggy (Aug 11, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Oh my. How terrible for you. I am truly sorry to hear this. I really have never heard of this happening before. I pray that your other little ones will be fine.


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## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Oh Sandstone... I'm so sorry for you and your losses...  :hug: This must be so hard for you. I know what it's like to lose goats left and right, but it's always hard, no matter what. I'll keep you and your goats in my prayers.


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## Dreamchaser (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Could it be because the vet cut it to the bone? That would leave it open to infection.


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## Sunny Daze (May 18, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I am a little confused. Did the banded horns come off within DAYS of banding? It usually takes a couple of weeks for the band to work down through the horn. :chin:


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Within 12 hours of banding they slipped up the bone. The horn cap and band both came up and off together, still intact with the tape.
She did not go to the sinus cavity and she died slightly over 12 hours after cutting occured, I don't think it could have been a sinus cavity infection, but I guess I just don't know what happened. The wound stayed dressed until @ 8pm, so nothing got in.
She was up and seeming okay, obviously not feeling her best, but looked alert and chewing.
Few observations... not bloated but cud smelled sour shortly before she died. As soon as she went down hill, she started staggering, unable to balance and crying in between labored breathing. Once layed down stayed sternal with support only, but tongue blue and gums/ lower lid white (not wormy it only happened when breathing became labored) nothing in throat.

It kills me to write this but I really wanted to make the right decisions for my babies and I did SO much research before I went through with this. Maybe I would have made different choices if I know how much damage actually could be done. But this is just one instance and one vet, so I thought that important to say also.


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I've heard of complications weeks later when the horn finally comes off, but nothing like this. :-( I'm so sorry for your loss. PLEASE do not beat yourself up. You researched this, you had your VET do it, you tried to do the right thing. I've never heard of anything like this happening and I have been reading up about this stuff everywhere I can for two years now. It's not like this was something everyone says is dangerous and you went and did it anyway... you had every reason to believe it was safe and would be best for your goats in the long run. PLEASE don't beat yourself up over this. (((hug)))


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

OH I AM SO SO SORRY!! :hug: how devastating for you and your husband. The banding does seem to be harder on the larger goats 

I will pray for your other ones to make it through ok ray:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I'm so sorry for your loss. :hug: 

I have never heard of banding like this. You usually just shave around the base of the horn...make a couple notches and place the bands on there. It usually takes weeks to come off. I think this is very much the fault of the vet...not yours...so don't be to hard on yourself. Prayers that the others have a safe and quick recovery! :hug:


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

:hug: So sorry for your loss. 
ray: That the others are ok and make it thru.

Was the banding done with a notch in the horn? 
Any injections given?
Was the goat left conscious when it was done?
Was there blood?

Never heard of a issue like this. 
I have heard of horrible issues with fly when banding is done and fly are around but that wouldn't have been so quick I don't think.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Oh my... I am so very very sorry  I hope and pray the others will be okay. Are they older goats, is that why you banded them instead of having them burnt? I don't know anything about disbudding since we have boer/boer crosses, and don't disbud.


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Thanks guys.
We did shave, only notched where ring rolling would be apparent. Only banamine given prior (for all) and nerve block sprayed on top, then procaine dripped on to prior to bandages being placed and closed (for Dotty when cutting).
They were 3 months and after 2 unsuccessful burn attempts at 1 week and 2 week mark (only on the boy and 1 girl), we (with the vet) thought that we would avoid hurting them anymore if we waited for the growth and banded instead of burning again.

I just need to focus on keeping my other 3 alive at this point. Called and emailed a few small ruminant vets out of my area and pleaded for phone/ email advice. They say keep clean, open to dry out and antiseptic spray and possibly fly screw ointement if available. Minimal hands on and as low stress as possible but need to clean quick. Check for chewing, drinking, eating, peeing, and obviously any signs that Dotty exhibited...
Thanks again.


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## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I am so sorry for your loss... I cant think of another thing to even say. How shocking...


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

did the vet use elastrator bands?

I think we need to do a tutorial on how to disbud properly so you dont have this problem! I have successfully disbudded 6 week olds with no problems so there is some kind of incompetence going on with your vet!


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Was too much prilocaine used?? Goats are very very sensitive to that medication.


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Wow. I too have never heard of this happening. Can you post pics of the others? A close up of the horn area. Something is not right here. It takes weeks for the horn to come off.
I'm sorry for your loss. Hugs to you and hubby.

Gina


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I am so very sorry...  :hug: ray:


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

:hug: As others are saying, do not blame yourself. I am very sorry for the loss of your little goat.


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## Itchysmom (Apr 3, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Ii am so sorry to hear about your loss and the on going problems. As said, please do not blame yourself!

This is one reason my goats will keep their horns. I know there are alot of reasons to de-horn, but mine will keep theirs.


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I'm not sure I'm following everything...
When I've banded before, I just put the band around the base of the horn and leave it. I don't cut any notches, but it eventually comes off. It's easy and really no bother. I've done it with a doe that had almost ten inch horns. I have no idea what your vet was doing based on your description... I'm so sorry you lost one.. But it sounds more like the vet's fault, not yours.


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Yes elastrator bands (green cherios). And only a few drops of procaine squirted on top outside of cut off horn base.
I will consider a few pics of kids that are here if they survive, if it will be educational, none of Dotty's though for obvious reasons.

I can see from your responses that this is nothing you have encountered and a rare case. Also emailed with Cheryl Smith and another AllExpert goat people and spoke with 2 small ruminant vets at legnth. Also never herd of this occuring. So while I feel compelled to be educational, I think it's important to read know that a lot of people are saying it appears to be how the procedure was done.

I just buried my baby girl, I blame myself for not knowing when to stop, not following my gut and letting the vet tell me we should keep going. Not for intentionally causing harm to a baby intentionally. But your right, beating yourself up is the easiest thing to do because you can't do anything else.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I've banded horns before and never had any problems either....I just shaved the base of the horn and placed the band, held in place with tape, they fell off 3 and 4 weeks later. There was no cutting involved, no meds and no other interference once the bands were placed. You mention that the horn base was cut off? Then the band placed? I'm not following, there should not have been any cutting of horns at all when banding them...thats why they're banded, to avoid possible death from shock or hemmorhage by cutting. Even if you chose to notch the horn to keep the band from slipping, that notch should not have gone the circumference of the horn or should have been very deep...it sounds like the "notches" were made too deeply to cause the degloving of the horn.

I am so very sorry that you and your hubby have suffered such a loss. Sounds more like your vet should have done the research that you did...not your fault at all :hug:


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Sorry so sleep deprived I've been unclear.
First the banding was done to all, the next morning they (the horn sheath exposing the bone underneath) slipped off.
THEN the vet cut the inner horn bone down on Dotty then nerve block, procaine and wrapped.

Edited to add the horn sheath is what slipped and the inner bone cut down.


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## Randi (Apr 22, 2011)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

:hug:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

The banding was done...then the horn slipped off or the bands? When you do banding...you just band and wait. The horns should have never been cut. I don't think your vet knew what they were doing.  I'm so sorry again. I'd get lots of pictures of your kids now because if they pass away from this then the vet needs to pay for the damage. That is not acceptable.


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## Saanens N Alpines (Oct 20, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I am so sorry for your loss, and I feel your pain. I lost a goat to a vet's lack of knowledge once, and I felt the goat was put through needless suffering because of the vet and then not well cared for after the trauma. I kept calling to say she needed more care and the vet would say she didn't. I felt so much guilt when she died. I have heard of goats dying when their horns were cut like that. I can't say I know much about it. We always burn and I hate it, but the dairy goats can't have horns at the fair.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I am so very sorry for your loss. And I know how responsible we feel nomatter what. I do not think we can help it. Praying for the recovery of your others.


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## lissablack (Nov 30, 2009)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I am so sorry. I hope the rest make it. Try not to blame yourself, sounds like you worked hard to do the right thing.

Jan


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Hydrating with goat electrolytes and giving nutridrench and a dab of probios. Trying to avoid anymore shock. Girls are doing better than the buckling. Clearly miserable, head down staring at corner of barn. Got him up and moving, drenched and got a long pee and pooped 3 times(still berry) and some green leaves and alfalfa.
I have no additional pain meds I know aspirin is in the banamine family dosing for 25 and 30 lb?
Anything else you guys can think of for reduced shock or pain?


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Get your vet to give you banamine, it works much better than aspirin. Also, I think I picture would be helpful to anyone you are talking with privately, so that we can see what it looks like because it is hard to understand what you are talking about on how it looks now and what was done.


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Ok, I think I understand now. It's so weird that the outer horn would have slipped off, there's usually a lot of membrane and tissue connecting it to the bone. I've never heard of that happening.. I suppose the young age might have had something to do with it slipping off the others, but puzzlng to say the least..


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Could it have had something to do with the unsuccessful burn attempts earlier? Maybe the horn base was looser than usual?

I really hate dehorning, and the banding sounded appealing, but not anymore. So sorry for your loss. I know how hard it is to lose a baby when you have waited months for them to arrive.


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## Mandara Farm (Sep 12, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

How tragic! I'm so sorry for your family's loss! I was thinking of banding one of my girls, who has horns growning back after being disbudded as a baby -- now I'm not so sure... Thanks for sharing this with all of us to help us all better understand and make more informed decisions. RIP little Dotty :grouphug:


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I'm sorry to hear you lost your little girl.  From what you are describing it sounds like the "scur" left from the disbudding had not grown out sufficiently to hold the bands properly.... Also, if the vet "notched" an already weakened scur...that was likely the "breaking point" for the horn. A babies horns are already pretty small.... then add that it was only a scur, then cutting into it....it was just too much. The vet should have understood that....not your fault but I'd definitely be wary of using that vet again. Next time no notching for a scur....they are too weak. I'm so sorry you and your baby had to go through that!!!!  :hug: :sigh:


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

:hug: I am so very sorry!


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## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

I had a scur come off one of my girls recently and by the next day she had spiked a fever (actually within 12 hours of it coming off) Luckily since I was milking her I noticed her temp was up right away when her udder was so hot and I started LA-200. I never thought about scurs being so dangerous but I am checking them every day for looseness now when i pet the goats.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

How are the others doing? Were you able to get the banamine?


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.*

Trying an image


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died.PIC added*

This is my little guy that were most worried about. Phone pic, but best I could load.
Whaat is hard to see is the skin is torn away at the horn base and the white part is wet and oozy.
The blood is starting to dry at the top. I wish I had taken pics of everyone at it's worst for documentation purposes but I was too busy with them.
See how his left horn is slipping off too?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died. PIC added pg3*

Oh my!

That's crazy never heard or seen such a thing.

Can you spray the exposed horn with blu-kote? Im sure its super sensitive to the heat cold and wind


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died. PIC added pg3*

I've sprayed with an antiseptic spray with some benzocaine for pain... I have blukote but the vet I spoke to (not mine, the small ruminant one) said I could sink in more often with a non coating antiseptic and that the SWAT cna get in the wound to keep maggots from forming.


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died. PIC added pg3*

Oh my. That's not right. My uncle did one of his and it looked nothing like that. His buck never even really noticed it. Went right back to bouncing around like always. It took him weeks for it to fall of and he never bleed.
Do you have any other goat vets around you? Bet if you showed them this they would agree this is wrong. I'm so sorry you are going thru this. Keep a close eye on the others. Get a second opinion on them from another vet. Do you have any large goat farms around? They maybe able to help too.
Like Stacey said, spray it to keep it from getting worse. Praying for you and them.

Gina


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died. PIC added pg3*

Just reposting the same in both.
New Bolton consulting a small ruminant vet tonight, I'm meeting them at someone elses facility @ 6pm, they think infection kicking in -- but they laid out a plan for me of what they will do over the phone, put in other post... going to get the truck ready
Wish my babies luck!


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## laurajean1966 (Aug 21, 2011)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died. PIC added pg3*

good luck Please keep us informed


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: Banded horns and it went bad, goat died. PIC added pg3*

Sorry, I accidently got 2 posts going and have been updating in the other.
They are responding well to the antibiotis and pain medication.
They are very tired from being awake and in pain, so lots of sleeping.
Eating well, temps staying in range, no more signs of shock.

Susan (Dotty's sister) lost both of her caps now, but she's been doing the best all along. We went ahead and started her on the antibiotic, her temp did spike a bit, but she seems to be responding well.
The vet removed the remaining bands as she felt there was infection brewing up inside. So we will have silly looking goat heads, but they seem on the road to recovery *fingers crossed*.
Still hoping the rest of the dead horn slips off so we can clean up inside that bone. If not they will go back. And later down the road dead bone may need to be removed for safety to the sinus cavity, but we'll see.
Thanks


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

Quick update... what a long week! Shots 2x/day on all 3. Batadine scrub and temps daily and back to work... I sooo wanted to sleep in today!
Susan went back to vet for tetanus antitoxin, she's doing great minus funny looking horns. They're all dried up and staying clean on her though.
Bam and Pebble are the slowest to heal, vet extended antibiotics for another week (they HATE getting caught for shots and they used to be so friendly) pretty sure Pebble is 99% dried up, not sure what the horns are going to do, but her temp is staying lower, so that's a plus.
Bam's is the worst,he's the one I showed the pic of. Vet really hoped that horn would slip off, some ooze still drains out ocasionally and the broken one keeps cracking open and bleeding, just keeping it as disinfected as we can from the outside. He goes back next Tuesday to determine if he is still on the best course of action.
I am terrified of the idea that he may have to have them surgically removed. The only way is if they are a risk to his health. Guess we'll find out more next week.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad to hear they are improving. I hope they keep improving for you.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Was wondering about them Caryn so glad they havent gotten worse and there are signs of improvement. :hug: it has got to be very hard


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Hopefully they are still improving day by day. :hug:


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Thank you for keeping us updated. I hope things continue to improve.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I am glad to hear they are improving. Definitely keep us up to date. Many thoughts and prayers going out your way.


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

Girls are good after vet on Tuesday, horns bone will probably stay disfigured (no shows for these girls), but they look healthy at least.
Bam stays on antibiotics another week, when the vet got a good washing, the bone still opens and bleeds. The big horn is fusing back together and she thinks it will not slough, but also doesn't think it's infection-y in there. 
So he stays silly looking, she said to just file/nip when it gets too long or pointy. 
He gets another bone check up in 2 weeks. We just need to keep anything from getting to the sinus cavity! 
You guys don't even want to know how pricey this banding incident has gotten!!

I did decide to write a formal complaint to the State board of medicine, I'm waiting a little longer to send it, just continuing to monitor Bam for a while longer first. I wanted to make sure I felt it was truly the right thing to do first, not just because Dotty died and I was hurting. But I do feel all my goats did suffer unecessarily by incorrect procedure, inadequate pain management and lack of follow up or care following improper procedure that she was aware of and was a risk to their health. DH sent her an email and she didn't even respond to that, she did cash my checks though, so I know she had to think of us. 

I have really stepped back and re-evaluated how I feel about my goats, goat care/ maintenance, what I will and will not do moving forward and hopefully how to be a better goat caregiver. I just wish I didn't have to lose Dotty to figure it out. That's how lessons have to be sometimes though, right? I really never knew how much these little hay burners were going to mean to me before I got them. I miss my little Dotty girl everyday. 
Thanks for checking in on my guys  I really appreciate the prayers and support!
Caryn


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I would be taking a log of everything and sending copies of every bill to the vet that caused the issue!!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree with Logan! Take a log, make sure you have pictures and detail everything. I would NOT let this vet get away with this. I could understand if there was one slip up, but all of the procedure's going wrong? I don't think so! I would be furiously upset, and I would be doing anything I could legally to make sure malpractice is not done on someone elses animals, and to get my $$ back and $$ for damages as well. If you intended on showing your goats, then IMO you deserve damages to help replace your show animals. It's not right, and just makes me so upset that you are going through this because of their mistake, and yet you and your goats are paying for it in every way


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## Ozark Lady (Sep 13, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss, and issues!

I don't show my goats, so I don't dehorn at all. I was considering checking into it, because those little horns (they are same age as yours) hurt, when they curl up in my lap and wiggle around. I find I am always dodging the horns.
I am seriously considering, cutting some garden hose to use as a guard over the tips. Not for removal, but for my protection.


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## lovin'_my_life (Sep 20, 2011)

I am so sorry as well! 
You did scare me though, I have a six month old doeling I am putting bands on and thought for sure nothing could go wrong. Now I am going to be praying protection over her for sure!


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## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

Was your vet the one who performed the initial disbuddings as well? From the pics those are some HUGE scurs for a goat that has been properly disbudded. It almost looks like it was never done at all. I've had a few with small scurs but never anything that big. Most of the ones I've had with scurs are the ones I did early on, when I was still nervous about burning them too much. Then I learned that doing a good job the first time was much less cruel than having to reburn over and over and still end up with funky scurs. Now I burn the crud out of each horn bud and it's over and done the first time with no scurs. Even on bucks I usually only get a small scur now and then.

Sounds like your vet is not very good with goats...it's tough to find a vet that IS good with goats! So sorry for what you went through.


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## SandStoneStable Farm (Dec 8, 2010)

That scur was after 2 unsuccessful burn attempts. And yes, it's better to just get it done right the first time.
We were not informed by her that she didn't know what she was doing, or that she had never done them...part of the reason I filed a complaint.
Everyone is doing better and the girls horn nubs may possibly stay short enough. 
Bam broke off the big one, bled a ton, but bone is now is healing and at least not long and dangerous.

Have a new small ruminant vet and though it's a bit of a treck, we will be bringing them to her in the future!
Thanks!


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Glad you found a new vet and that the kids are doing well! :thumb:


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