# DNA testing-ABGA



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

A friend of mine just told me that starting next year ABGA will start a mandatory DNA testing before registering....ABGA people, truth??? She also said that the place that does the testing charges $40 a piece and only a vet can pull the blood. I sure hope not since I have right now 43 papered animals with them, and last year was my first profit of a whole $250 
So has anyone heard about this?


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

I haven't heard that. Doesn't sound very practical and would be a good way to lose a lot of members if it was true. I could see them doing it if people were wanting to register a doe that is commercial


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

I just found this on their Facebook page
"The ABGA Board of Directors has voted to implement several new projects. One of those involves DNA testing of all bucks being used to produce percentage or fullblood Boer kids that are being registered. The program will be voluntary in 2014, and become mandatory January 1, 2015."

They also said that it wouldn't be blood draw it would be from hair collected. If people are going to lie about paperwork then what stops them from sending in a sample from a different buck?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

That's a good point. And still that's a lot of money if it is $40. That's $40 every buck kid we sell. And what's the point if its just bucks people could still lie about who he bred to.......thanks for the info by the way


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

From what I read they are working with a lab to exclusively use them and bring the price down so it would be cheaper than the $40. I bet most sellers wont send the DNA tests in but will instead have the buyers do it. Think about all the people who buy animals who are register able but never send the paperwork in or never transfer the animal. That would be a waste for a seller to pay for a DNA test and then the buyer never register the buck. 
I just don't get what it proves. The buck is DNA tested but his kids don't have to be so how do you prove the kids are his? Or is the test only to prove he is Fullblood Boer and not some mix who's paperwork was doctored? I wonder if all the dappled goats brought this new change or if it's been in the works for awhile?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I saw this topic on FB last week, and am not very happy about it. I agree, I think people can still cheat, and whose to say his kids are 'really' his kids with the exception of bucklings getting registered from those kid crops.

I haven't looked into it fully, but after Jan 1st, the buck has to be DNA tested before you can register his kids correct, or is it just the buck kids themselves?
Because lets say we use a buck in Aug, and sell in Nov, we get a nice fullblood buckling born in Jan that we want to register, do we just do DNA testing on the buckling, or does the sire need to have it done as well?
Again, I haven't looked into that yet.

I did hear that DNA testing is supposed to be $33, right now it's supposed to be $25, but someone can correct me if you find the fees are different, I haven't been to the site to confirm it, but it's what I read on a discussion.

I agree the buyer should be the one to pay the fees, but if you aren't dealing with big/fancy or costly goats then it may be a huge turnoff for some people and be harder to sell. I mean think about it, $16 for registration, and $30-40 for testing?
I can see a LOT more fullblood buck kids going to market... maybe perhaps a lot of people deciding to stay away from registered goats and go with commercial, or a lot of people getting out of the registered goats. It just makes things complicated...or maybe I thinking into it too much and maybe people really do have a lot of $$ to kick around for this kind of stuff?

In the end, I still think this will hurt a lot of people, especially breeders who sell those $250 affordable, but nice goats. it will hurt people like us that don't keep a big herd and have to change bucks every year since we don't keep a buck year round.
We've pretty much decided we may steer away from fullbloods so we don't have to worry about the issue with any fullblood bucklings. But we still have to use a registered buck so the kids can have registered % does to show as 4-H breeding projects. It's very frustrating.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

They can lie about the buck but then when you register his offspring, it comes out then.

Someone in the llama industry had done that and got into big trouble when his offspring didn't match. Banned from registering and judging for 5 years.


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

HoosierShadow said:


> I haven't looked into it fully, but after Jan 1st, the buck has to be DNA tested before you can register his kids correct, or is it just the buck kids themselves?
> Because lets say we use a buck in Aug, and sell in Nov, we get a nice fullblood buckling born in Jan that we want to register, do we just do DNA testing on the buckling, or does the sire need to have it done as well?
> Again, I haven't looked into that yet.


From what I understand the buck has to be DNA tested if any of his kids will be registered. I would think in the case of the kids born in January. The sire wouldn't have to be DNA tested because the breeding occurred in 2014. 
As far as lying about the buck it would only come out if someone tried to register a buck kid since the does don't have to be DNA tested


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree Hoosier, I'm one of the ones who don't get very much money for my kids and that 'cheap' $250 buck will end up being $300 easy. I just think its crap and a headache. The only way to make sure every animal is who they say they are is for all animals to be tested and even then someone can lie. And it makes me wonder if does will be next. Doing just my bucks won't be a total big bill but if they do does as well.....and I bet you that comes next...they is no way I can afford that. I have nothing to hide......unless.someone I purchased from lied...but I think when its time to pay my fees I'm jerking everything and putting in usbga. It kinda sucks for me because I have been slowly weeding out my commercial and right now I'm really considering having just commercial.


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I know this is an old thread but I'm wondering what has become of this issue. I'm preparing to register kids for the first time and I'm a total newbie in dealing with registries. What have you all ended up doing? Do I need to get the DNA kit to register doelings or only bucklings? 
I'm really feeling frustrated since my buck died shortly after kids were born. So I've no buck to pull hair from anyway!!
If ABGA wants to make this too complicated I'm just going to boycott them.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I don't know this for absolute sure, haven't done it myself yet but am going to in the next few months. It's just the buck kids that need the DNA sample, mostly it's intended for those buck kids to have registered offspring.

I don't know what ABGA does in circumstances like yours....did you purchase your buck or raise/register him yourself? The breeder may have already sent the DNA sample in when you bought him. ABGA should know if they have his sample on hand or not...I think. 

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable comes along, that's just how I've understood the rules.


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

VVFarm said:


> I know this is an old thread but I'm wondering what has become of this issue. I'm preparing to register kids for the first time and I'm a total newbie in dealing with registries. What have you all ended up doing? Do I need to get the DNA kit to register doelings or only bucklings?
> I'm really feeling frustrated since my buck died shortly after kids were born. So I've no buck to pull hair from anyway!!
> If ABGA wants to make this too complicated I'm just going to boycott them.


If the sire of the kids wasn't DNA tested before he died then I don't think any of the kids can be registered. They will just be able to get a record of pedigree. You would have had to send in a tissue sample after his death. Doe kids don't have to be DNA tested themselves to be registered and buck kids only have to be if you are using them for breeding and registering their kids. Hopefully that makes sense

Edited to add: if you aren't sure if the sire was DNA tested you can give me his full name or registration number and I can look him up in the database and check


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yeah sadly since he was not DNA tested none of his kids born after January of last year (I believe) can not be registered. I would call ABGA to see if there is anything you can do, maybe they will let you DNA test the kids you want registered but I wouldn't hold your breath


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good advice. 

Any breeding buck used must be DNA tested through ABGA, before any of their offspring can be registered or sold as regstered
. 
No does are DNA tested unless you need parentage results.

Buck kids sold do not need to be pre-tested, that is up to the new owners.

Remember though, if you use a buck, and want to register his kids. You should do this before you sell the mature buck used. I do not rely on the buyer of that buck to get it done. So it is a safety measure so his kids born on your place from him can be registered. There is nothing worse than selling the buck, then find out the goat was never DNA tested or died before the new owner got to it.

You can order a DNA kit from ABGA, through the online members website, pay the fee, they will send you by email a print out version, print it out, then read and follow the instructions very carefully or calling them to order by mail ect.


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Edited to add: if you aren't sure if the sire was DNA tested you can give me his full name or registration number and I can look him up in the database and check[/QUOTE]

If by some miracle he would have been tested already I would be ecstatic :leap:
His name is: Trinity Boers Futures Renegade 
Registration number: 10663324

If you're actually willing to check for me I would soooo appreciate it. Thank you!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I looked him up and see no DNA recorded.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

If ADGA started doing this I'd go insane


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

toth boer goats said:


> I looked him up and see no DNA recorded.


Thank you so much for checking for me. I really appreciate it!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You bet, I am sorry he wasn't DNA tested.


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## Honsby (Jun 26, 2017)

It seems like politics (profit) to me. Whose goats are going to be the standard by which all the rest are to be measured against? (One of the big cheeses of the ABGA no doubt.) I might be convinced if they would take ABGA members' goats blood samples *randomly* and not just one or two goats but many, say from 100 members.

How would they know if the traits indicated by those particular genetic markers are not detrimental to the entire breed in the long run? They can't know therefore there can be no genetic paradigm from one or two goats especially if they were from the same herd.

But we all know some people will fall in line. Like lemmings. Plus, I don't know what it is about bragging rights anyway. Is it always about the money?

Are they going to take away your status as a current menber if your goat doesn't 'pass' the test? How much are these tests anyway?

Check out these pigs... http://www.nature.com/news/super-muscly-pigs-created-by-small-genetic-tweak-1.17874

We can only surmise that goats aren't far behind.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Take a look at the other thread on proposed testing for ADGA which seems to be going the same route as ABGA. This is not about particular bloodlines or standards. It is about insuring the integrity of the breed, making sure that the goat presented on the registration papers, are actually as presented. It helps to prevent crossing by unethical breeders - not "super goats". Testing is done by an outside lab for all bucks. It runs around $30.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Honsby said:


> It seems like politics (profit) to me. Whose goats are going to be the standard by which all the rest are to be measured against? (One of the big cheeses of the ABGA no doubt.) I might be convinced if they would take ABGA members' goats blood samples *randomly* and not just one or two goats but many, say from 100 members.
> 
> How would they know if the traits indicated by those particular genetic markers are not detrimental to the entire breed in the long run? They can't know therefore there can be no genetic paradigm from one or two goats especially if they were from the same herd.
> 
> ...


All it is with the DNA for goats is to know parentage, nothing more. It weeds out the dishonest breeders which are out there. So they cannot cheat registration on a goat.

They have really muscled goats out there now. 
They are feed high power feeds ect. But their life span is very short lived because of it.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree, I believe it's more about verifying parents and making sure they are correct. There is a lot of cheating out there unfortunately, I hear about it from time to time and it's sad.
I know just looking around on the internet people have sold bucks that are supposed to be fullblooded when you can clearly see they have some dairy in there. I see a lot less of that now that they require DNA testing.

I wasn't on board with the DNA testing when it started - just another expense as we raise a small herd. But... it definitely grew on me and I have no issues with it at all. 
I like that if the sire is DNA tested, you can still register his buck kids without DNA testing them. however, for them to be used for breeding/registering their kids they would need to be DNA tested. 

If testing were a few dollars each, I'd be on board for testing does as well. But not at $33 a doe. I couldn't imagine having a large herd and trying to go that route. But I am totally on board with DNA testing bucks. Make's sense to me.
However, if an unregistered buck is bred to a 100% doe, I think both parents should be DNA tested...But that's just me.


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## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

HoosierShadow said:


> However, if an unregistered buck is bred to a 100% doe, I think both parents should be DNA tested...But that's just me.


That is something I haven't thought of. ADGA doesn't allow unregistered animals to create 50% animals like ABGA does, but I never thought of that. If you tested the doe and she was in truly 100%, then what would be the point of DNA testing the unregistered buck? Simply to have it on file? I'm not familiar enough with ABGA to know the advantages of having the buck tested. Would it weed out someone who wanted to create amazing 50% animals that are really a higher percentage then they are so they show better?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Yep. You'd think everyone wants a full blooded doe, but there are people out there who will register them as % so they do better in the show ring. Besides, there is a slight chance ABGA could possibly start allowing % bucks to be registered. If that happens, some of these bloodlines from unregistered bucks being bred to registered does would already get into the system.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yeah but that not fair either. There tons of animals sold as commercial even though they are actually high %. I sold a 99% doeling as a commercial this year. I didn't get any bites to sell her for the higher amount of money and was offered lower as a commercial so I took it. I wasn't going to get $200 for a kid just to compete with the lines that I paid way more for. I also have a 99.9% that is a commercial because the breeder didn't follow threw on a service memo. So let's say I sold her kid and it ended up going into the ring who would be considered the "cheater"? Me because I sold that kid? The person who showed it and had no idea that it was that high of a % or the breeder that I got the mother from? And if the breeder then I would be considered the cheater as well when I sold that little 99%. All my commercial does are way higher then even 50% anyways. I know your talking in reverse here, a commercial buck to a 100% buck but still I've sold registerable bucks as commercial in the past as well but it's still the same thought behind it. Or should those people automatically just get papers on them? That I would have even more of a issue with because I've sold many culls threw the sale that were not banded. So let's say the little guy with only one testicle that dropped that I culled ended up in a breeding program then by giving papers on that buck it can be traced back to me and then BAM I'm a breeder that sells a buck with one testicle. That's not fair at all


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## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

So basically the only reason to care in those instances that the animal is a higher percentage is for showing? 

It makes zero sense to me for the breeder to have to sell the papers if people are unwilling to pay for them. Wouldn't they be undermining the very market that keeps the industry afloat? Having the ability to sell registered/registerable kids for less as commercial stock is still better for the economy by producing a higher quality animal with better genetics that commercial breeders can afford, while (hopefully) still getting a higher price to the breeder than if they had to send every registered animal they couldn't sell at registered paper price for meat.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

That's exactly the way I see it as well. But like you said there is show and there's not and I'm not on the show side and as far as I know nothing I have ever sold has been shown in any ABGA classes. Now I have sold a bunch that go to our fairs but here there is no registered breeding classes for goat there is simply meat goats. So why would any of the kids around here be willing to pay for papers? Or the breeders I sell to to sell to ffa and 4h kids want the papers? And your right the difference between market/ meat prices and private sales isn't much when it comes to a commercial doe or buck but still might be the line between me making money that year and not. If the market is good and I sold all my kids at market price I would break even IF the market is good. The ones that sell for a little more is enough that I can put away for repairs, another buck, rotating does out and such. To be honest with that small list I don't really make that much money but I'm also getting a better herd which I think is important and will be worth it in the long run.
I understand Hoosiers view on this I really do and I don't think she is wrong for HER and others that do show but for me no way and I'm not sure what the middle ground should be


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

By the way I thought we could breed 100% does to unregistered bucks now? And I assumed that meant that the rules would be the same as it is now just change the sex, basically a 75% buck could breed a 100% doe and have 88% kids ???? 
I admit though I don't follow that since I don't see it being smart money wise having a commercial buck and a bunch of 100% does


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Conundrums.

Sometimes it seems the people making the rules lose the plot as to why the rules are needed, and if they are actually going to accomplish what they are needed for.

One thing the rules should not do is pit responsible breeders against one another...


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Jessica84 said:


> By the way I thought we could breed 100% does to unregistered bucks now? And I assumed that meant that the rules would be the same as it is now just change the sex, basically a 75% buck could breed a 100% doe and have 88% kids ????
> I admit though I don't follow that since I don't see it being smart money wise having a commercial buck and a bunch of 100% does


I _think_ you can breed Purebred or Fullblood does to non ABGA registered bucks, and the resulting offspring would be 50%. You would still need to DNA the Buck.

Yup...just looked it up rule 203.A.ii


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

For me, I have show type animals and some nice commercial goat kids/adults, when I sell them. 

All my foundation herd is registered ABGA FB.
It makes better since to me, as I do not sell many meat or commercial goats, because I don't get a lot of bad offspring. The goats that don't make the cut do get sold as meat and some better ones with minor flaws, do go as commercial(no papers). 
It is called, breed standards. 

I have the option to sell my kids as registerable or without papers.

Giving the registration for application with kids, isn't given for every goat. Giving papers to a goat that is majorly flawed or not up to good standards, and should not be sold registered. 

My older or mature does.bucks, I can sell with papers or not, even if they are registered. The difference is, the price. 
If I need to move goats quicker, I may sell as unregistered. Of course, some people cannot afford a registered goat, depending on price asked, but they are willing to pay the price for unregistered goats. 

What gets me is, I also have had some pay for a registered price goat and say, I do not want papers. I give them the papers anyway, they bought a registered price goat. 

I cannot give away papers and not charge a higher price for the goat. This is the same with any kid.
Papers are important to a lot of breeders, well it is to me anyway. With registered animals, at least you know their ancestry, have a trail, so you do not line breed ect by mistake.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Toth that's the same with me. I have 3 repeat customers every year that don't want the papers and I still print that app up and tattoo ears and they get the papers. They paid for those papers so I'm giving to them what they decide to do after is up to them. 
Also that's basically what I do as well. I have across the board different % but I will try and sell with papers (most do sell) if they don't sell then I will drop down to commercial price which is usually let's say 2-400 and if they still don't sell I throw the towel in and and leave for market price which I always figure after commission is $100 but they go from anywhere from $120-150 take away 10%. So with that price difference yeah I'm more then willing to sell a papered animal as a commercial.
I knew they did do the commercial buck I just figured if they did that why not the other %. So still a 94% produces a 50% kid if bred to a 100%


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I hear ya.


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