# swelling in both front knees



## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

I am just about ready to have boring healthy goats 

one of our future herd sires ... 4 month old red boer goats ... has had swelling in both of his front knees for about 2 weeks ... the breeder we purchased him from said it is likely swelling due to a bruise, but she hasn't seen it in both knees before, but, it is possible.

I asked our vet about it yesterday ... he said it is likely localized septicemia ... meaning when the buck was young, bacteria migrated through his cord and then localized in the joints ... this causes cartilage damage and typically doesn't make the goat a good breeding option b/c he will only breed for a day or two at a time, and then take a couple of days off due to pain in his knees ... 

has anyone heard of this? any other possibilities? right now, he moves around fine, but, he is only 4 months old.


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## Happy Hobby Farmer (May 16, 2011)

Swollen knees makes me think of CAE.
Sounds like your vet is talking about joint-ill though, typically seen in 3-4 month olds. http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... /90607.htm


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Happy Hobby Farmer said:


> Swollen knees makes me think of CAE.
> Sounds like your vet is talking about joint-ill though, typically seen in 3-4 month olds. http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... /90607.htm


Thank you for the information ... it certainly does sound like what they are describing there ... the one issue is that it isn't tender or painful when I palpate the area ... he doesn't typically run around as much as he used to, but, I chalked that up to him getting a little older.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

:hug: At this age I would think Joint-Ill. If he were older then I would think CAE. I am not sure how young CAE can cause issues like that.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

is there a way to verify that it is Joint-Ill and not inflammation? the breeder is willing to replace him if it is something serious like that, but, we both want to make a 100% sure ... we really have high hopes for this guy and would hate to see him not work out ... besides an awesome color and build, he has some slight spotting that will work with our spotted breeding.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Not that it will show not but what does the belly button area look like>


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

freedomstarfarm said:


> Not that it will show not but what does the belly button area look like>


hmm, good question ... i haven't looked at it ... let me check this evening ... what would I be looking for?


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

not positive but anything that doesn't look normal. Redness, swelling, anything smelly.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> is there a way to verify that it is Joint-Ill and not inflammation? the breeder is willing to replace him if it is something serious like that, but, we both want to make a 100% sure ... we really have high hopes for this guy and would hate to see him not work out ... besides an awesome color and build, he has some slight spotting that will work with our spotted breeding.


 Joint ill seems to effect up to 1 month old.... he is 4 months old....
If it where me... I'd have the breeder take him back ...that isn't normal to have both knee's swollen...
if it where injury...maybe but ??



> Joint or navel ill
> Joint ill occurs in lambs up to one month of age. Affected lambs are often lame in several joints, usually limb joints, including fetlocks, knees, hocks and stifles. Affected joints are hot and painful. The lambs are dull, feverish and clearly unthrifty. Some may have swollen, infected navels, while others may have symptoms of pneumonia or meningitis.
> 
> The infection is usually caused by strains of streptococci, though coliforms and occasionally Actinomyces pyogenes may be isolated. Affected lambs should be treated with a long-acting penicillin. Joint ill is prevented by good hygiene and using a navel dip, such as betadine or gentle iodine.


Not sure... if he is too young to test for CAE...and I do not know the age it can start with them....... but there is that possibility...

Keep in mind...that the animal is unthrifty ...both you and the breeder know this... I would exchange the animal....if you have that option... but then again.. if it is CAE ...your replacement may have it as well....but he is awful young to have it....... It may be hard to pin point the issue.... if it is from injury ...the swelling will go down eventually....but.. if it isn't it ...will remain... and may be crippling being CAE or even if it isn't CAE.. down the road...depending upon.. what it is.....This whole situation is difficult.....Listen to me... I am rambling here... it could be anything... :hug: ray:


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> Not sure... if he is too young to test for CAE...and I do not know the age it can start with them....... but there is that possibility...


If you test for CAE at younger than 6 months even a positive animal may show up negative. Since the test is looking for antibodies and at younger than 6 months there may not be enough antibodies built up yet to show as positive.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

freedomstarfarm said:


> not positive but anything that doesn't look normal. Redness, swelling, anything smelly.


Thanks ... I will take a look and see if I see anything ... although, he may stay far away from me when I bring home his 2 buddies that I took to get castrated and de-horned


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

freedomstarfarm said:


> toth boer goats said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure... if he is too young to test for CAE...and I do not know the age it can start with them....... but there is that possibility...
> ...


I have to agree on the testing ... and, the testing seems to be something that is debatable at best ... :hair:


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> > is there a way to verify that it is Joint-Ill and not inflammation? the breeder is willing to replace him if it is something serious like that, but, we both want to make a 100% sure ... we really have high hopes for this guy and would hate to see him not work out ... besides an awesome color and build, he has some slight spotting that will work with our spotted breeding.
> 
> 
> Joint ill seems to effect up to 1 month old.... he is 4 months old....
> ...


Not sure... if he is too young to test for CAE...and I do not know the age it can start with them....... but there is that possibility...

Keep in mind...that the animal is unthrifty ...both you and the breeder know this... I would exchange the animal....if you have that option... but then again.. if it is CAE ...your replacement may have it as well....but he is awful young to have it....... It may be hard to pin point the issue.... if it is from injury ...the swelling will go down eventually....but.. if it isn't it ...will remain... and may be crippling being CAE or even if it isn't CAE.. down the road...depending upon.. what it is.....This whole situation is difficult.....Listen to me... I am rambling here... it could be anything... :hug: ray:[/quote:2jlkol8e]

I know, we are torn at this point ... the breeder is the person who has helped us get started in goats ... she has been a HUGE help, and, we value her relationship tremendously. Based on that, we are willing to take the time to make sure so we can make sure we can an amicable relationship... it is a tough spot. :whatgoat:


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## Happy Hobby Farmer (May 16, 2011)

I have to agree with Pam.

And this is a statement taken from the link I posted:
Joint-Ill
Several joints of kids can be involved in this nonspecific bacterial infection. Bacteria that have been incriminated are mainly gram positive and include staphylococci, streptococci, Corynebacterium spp , Actinomyces spp , and coliforms. *Erysipelothrix rhusiopathiae is an uncommon cause of joint-ill in goats relative to sheep, and when it is seen, it is mainly in kids 3-4 mo old*.

Maybe somthing to look into?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> I know, we are torn at this point ... the breeder is the person who has helped us get started in goats ... she has been a HUGE help, and, we value her relationship tremendously. Based on that, we are willing to take the time to make sure so we can make sure we can an amicable relationship... it is a tough spot. :whatgoat:


 I respect that.. :thumbup: :hug:



> I have to agree with Pam.


 thank you... :wink:


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

I went and visited with the breeder last night ... she is going to take the buck kid to a vet closer to her that is more experienced with goats ... he is going to look at him and see what he thinks ... she is concerned as she has never had anything like this before and she wants to find out what is going on just as much as we do ... she has 2 other buck kids that have good potential, but, not like our buck kid ... 

our buck kid that has the swelling has great muscle (even as a triplet), and, has some roaning (spotting) in his coat ... this is important for our spotted program ... so, we are being more patient with him than maybe we wouldn't be otherwise ... thank you for all of the information ... it really looks like either joint ill or possibly inflammation in his joints from too rapid of growth 

either way, we should know something this evening - thanks.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I do hope that it works out for you and if he can't be your spotted herdsire that you find a nice one soon.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Thanks ... either way, we know it will be good ... I appreciate all of the feedback.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug: ray:


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> :hug: ray:


I know - thanks for the kind words .... I suppose it would be good if we didn't have a good relationship, but, we really are very appreciative for all this person has done for us - thanks and I will keep it updated.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Your welcome... :thumb: 


You couldn't ask for a better breeder than that...that is the way they are suppose to be.... :wink: :hi5:


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Yes she sounds to be a great breeder! All breeders have issues with some goats sometimes. Raising animals is not free of issues no matter how hard we strive to have the healthiest best conditions and setup for them.


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## Robynlynn (Jan 18, 2011)

Young kids with swollen joints are more likely to be suffering from navel infection than CAE.


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

Robynlynn said:


> Young kids with swollen joints are more likely to be suffering from navel infection than CAE.


Thanks for the information.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Young kids with swollen joints are more likely to be suffering from navel infection than CAE.


 :hug:


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## carabelli (Jun 14, 2011)

good news ... they took to the other vet ... he took a sample of the fluid ... definitely not an infection .. if anything some inflammation consistent with trauma ... the swelling was below the joint enough to rule out Joint Ill ... so, we are excited to welcome him back ... the breeder will replace him later if it comes back ... thanks again for all of the information and advice ... I will try to post pictures soon.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug: :thumb: :leap: congrats..... :hi5:


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Glad to hear that!


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