# Split teats, fish teats, how improtant are these to you



## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

So I just got back from a goat sale, something that hardly ever happens here in ND. That was advertised, with emphasis on 


> Genetics from top producers in the nation represented here.





> Selling approx 80 head of breeding does, breeding bucks, and market wethers and ewes for youth 4-H/FFA projects.


 One resounding thing I noticed with every goat I was interested in, was that they all had split teats, fish teats, any kind of teat except one on each side. (a little exaggerated but you get the point) I even started look at ones I wasn't interested and sure enough, same thing.

Even the ones that didn't, were from the same sire or herd as the ones that did and are probably passive carriers.

This is something I've been avidly avoiding and culling for in my own herd but now after seeing this, I'm kind of questioning if I have been a little over zealous with that particular default?

I know it was a sale, and there is a reason that those goats were there but I was getting the impression that it was mainly for people to start their own herds (which looked like that's exactly what a lot of people were doing) or for 4H kids (they had lots of wethers too).

So how much emphasis do you put on that with your own herds, for animals that you intend to sell to others as breeding stock?


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Just to clarify it wasn't like a sales barn sale, it was some breeders who came together and hosted a sale. They were there promoting their stock, handing out business cards etc.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Is this a Boer sale? For Dairy goats its a definite NO NO! Automatic DQ in the show ring. Hopefully meat goat folks will give their experience.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Yes, all FB and percentage boer


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## Saramine (May 9, 2014)

I don't only cull boers for teat structure. 1x 1 answer 2x2 are perfectly acceptable. I prefer not to have any kickers or extras. As long as the teats are show passable in does I'm fine. In bucks I like a clean 1x1. I see that at a lot of production sales to and even in the show ring. If I had 2 equal does and I needed to sell one I would sell the bad teared one before a clean teat.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

I agree. Boers that have show passable teats are fine. Most are 2x2. Splits more than 50 % are passable as well. If you look at abga online, there is a teat chart. 
I still prefer 1x1 or 2x2, but I have bought a few with small high kickers if the genetics were right.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with the others.


I too prefer 1x1 and 2x2 teat structure. As mentioned, see what is acceptable in the ABGA teat chart, that is a good indicator on what to get or what to stay away from. Bad teat structures can indeed be passed along, you may get good teat structures as well. The odds are even more if both sides of the genetic pools are bred together with bad teats.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I like the 2:2 I do have a % with a blind (no orifice) fish teat higher up the same side but it was not a DQ.
Now what are you saying about the "high kickers?" Ive never heard that term. Is it a small functional teat completely separated from the main one?
Every once in awhile I will get a doe or buck kid with clusters or split, they go for meat.


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## Saramine (May 9, 2014)

I think of kickers as those tiny non functional teats you will see next to a normal one. Example I have a doe that is 1x1 but next to one teat is a tiny little teat. Those are the one that people sometimes cut off babies to say they are a clean 1x1


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

So I guess I was kind of overeating to that, after looking at the chart. Anything I was seeing other than 1 x 1 was red flags in my eyes.

I guess I've just been really lucky with my does, I only have one that has fish tail according to abga's chart, the rest are all 1 x 1. My doelings this year though.....a couple of them show different structures than the 1 x 1 when I was giving CDT shots this weekend and was able to get a closer look. Which was my reason for being at this sale in the first place (in addition to making useful contacts), I was scared I may have a huge problem going on. 

I'm going to print that chart off and laminate it, take a closer look at what I have going on too. I'm thinking my buck may be a passive carrier or something? Because I didn't see this show up last year with a different buck and my buck has just the two. 

I'm glad I can be a little more lenient with this, chart depending. Still something I'm going to try avoiding if I can, makes me appreciate the percentage daughters my two Nubians give, since they both have such nice udders.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You are on the right track. Even clean teated goats bred together can occasionally bounce in there a bad teat structure.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Saramine said:


> I think of kickers as those tiny non functional teats you will see next to a normal one. Example I have a doe that is 1x1 but next to one teat is a tiny little teat. Those are the one that people sometimes cut off babies to say they are a clean 1x1


People shouldn't cut off teats, but some do, I highly frown on that. 
By Cutting off teats is a disaster waiting to happen later when the Doe freshens, They can balloon out in the area where the teat once was. Making it a nightmare. Please never cut them off, it isn't fair to the buyer or the goat and is very dishonest.  My 2 cents worth. :wink:


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

nancy d said:


> I like the 2:2 I do have a % with a blind (no orifice) fish teat higher up the same side but it was not a DQ.
> Now what are you saying about the "high kickers?" Ive never heard that term. Is it a small functional teat completely separated from the main one?
> Every once in awhile I will get a doe or buck kid with clusters or split, they go for meat.


It's a small blind teat like bump that sticks out of the main teat. I have on with it at home, but no pic right now. I can try to get one for you. She is almost 9 yrs old and has never had an issue with her kids not nursing it or anything.

I too agree with Pam, please do not cut off blind teats. It's a real mess later when they kid. Sometimes the milk will just drip out of the scar area. It's really not fair to buyers.


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

No, fish hooks and such is a major no-no in Boers! 2×2 teats are fine, sometimes even a desirable trait if they all function. But I can hardly believe that breeders would try to sell such stock! That's horrible. If something was born on my farm with fishhook teats they would go to freezer camp so fast! 
I live not far from you. In SD.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

For the last four years I have had 1:1 bucks but have a few does that are 2:2 back when I was using 2:2 bucks. Sometimes the buck wins in the 1:1 dept, sometimes not.
Occasionally will get a 2:1.
Now for me I do not care for the ABGA chart, it looks like a cartoon & really isn't that clear at least to me.
A few years ago I posted some pics here on TGS. It is titled
"Some Boer Teat Structure."


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## Saramine (May 9, 2014)

Just to be clear. I never would cut off anything. I think it's dishonest and seen the weird problems it causes almost like a hernia in the bag.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

A breeder should breed for what they want. If the teat structure is a big deal to you, then choose your breeding stock very carefully by looking close and not assuming. But bad teat structure can also come out of perfect teat structure parents. The ABGA standards put up with quite a bit extra stuff going on. There are some lines that have better teat structure than others. There are some bucks that will improve teat structure on their daughters. There are some bucks where you are darn lucky to ever get a correct doe out of. Don't be afraid to ask the breeder about the lines. If you tell them teat structure is a big deal to you, they can help you out with their own experience within their own herd.


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## Hartwigfarms (Nov 22, 2015)

I have a boer doe that has two on each side. I have never bred her so not sure if both are functional on both sides. I have shown her and judge said it was acceptable.


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