# I need you all to test me please



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I need to ask something of ya'all the you will probably think is crazy but it will really help me. I have trouble learning things unless it's hands on, so what I do is I read it over and over and test myself. Doing it this way eventually it starts to sink in. Problem is I can't test myself on something that I don't know the answer to. I am having the hardest time picking out the faults and the correct standard of a goat. I can alot of times look at it and know it's a put together goat but I can't tell you why I think this. So If anyone is interested in helping me you can post away your pics and askme questions and let me know if I'm right or correct me if I"m wrong. I know this is a crazy way to learn things but i'm kinda a crazy gal lol. Thank you!!!


P.S. If no one wants to that is fine!!


----------



## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I don't know if you want meat or dairy, but I'm from the Boer world so here are two pics I found of two of our does. ) 

Can you spot what I don't care for in these two doe? It's not a HUGE issue, but one I care about. ) 


Hope that helps???! )


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

How fun! I'm game.

These are all my goats, so I'm not pointing out the faults of another herd. Just mine.  I'll list the answers do the questions below.

*Which udder is "better", and why?*

















*Which kid has a "weak chine", and why would that be a problem?*

















*This doe toes out in the rear. Why is toeing out an issue?*










*Which kid has better "front end assembly"?*

















ANSWERS:

Q: Which udder is "better", and why?
A: The first doe has wider rear udder attachment, larger teats, and a more defined udder floor.

Q: Which kid has a "weak chine", and why would that be a problem?
A: The first kid is a little weak in the chine. This means her back may sag during pregnancy and wear out a little easier. However, her rump is longer and more level than the second doe's. Each kid has their own strengths and weaknesses. 

Q: This doe toes out in the rear. Why is toeing out an issue?
A: Toeing out can cause hooves to grow unevenly, as well as later life arthritis.

Q: Which kid has better "front end assembly"?
A: The first kid has better front end assembly. She has a stronger brisket and a more pronounced withers. Her shoulders are also tighter.


----------



## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

I am the same way! I love to play the which doe is best in the Dairy Goat Journal! But real animals would be great


----------



## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

A hint would be it is un related to their legs. )


----------



## Zarafia (Mar 25, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> How fun! I'm game.
> 
> These are all my goats, so I'm not pointing out the faults of another herd. Just mine.  I'll list the answers do the questions below.
> 
> ...


Woodhaven, what a great post!!! This thread is a great idea and your post, pics Q ans A is exactly the sort of thing I would need to learn from! Thank you!
JaLyn, thanks for starting this thread! I hope it helps you .


----------



## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

dappled.. I'm having a hard time with the slightly different angle. But, is the spotted slightly toed out in the front?


----------



## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

She is slightly, but my problem is with their toplines. Their rumps are a little two steep/high and their back dips behind the shoulders. I like a nice strait top with no dip as the does hold up better that way. ) It is not as bad behind the shoulders with the paint, but really notice able with the dappled doeling.


----------



## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

I agree thanks for starting this. I can evaluate a dog's conformation no problem, but I also have some problems with the goats.Wood haven thank you so much for the details. Can I ask a question I'm still having a hard time seeing. The chime, area is that noticeable by the slight dip compared to the other? Will an over weight goat who appears to be weak, level out as she looses weight? The front end, I can't tell if it's due to the color difference and or maybe longer coat on the darker one; at first she looked like she had higher withers and more brisket? I can see the shoulder difference though. 
Thank you for such great pics, and information why each is different.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Dappled-Boer-Lover said:


> I don't know if you want meat or dairy, but I'm from the Boer world so here are two pics I found of two of our does. )
> 
> Can you spot what I don't care for in these two doe? It's not a HUGE issue, but one I care about. )
> 
> Hope that helps???! )


 First off remember i don't know what i'm looking for cause i'm learning so if i'm wrong please remember this lol
I'm doing dairy but I'm still going to try with these. 
I can't find any fault. I'm not sure how the rump is supposed to look but my guess is you'd like on both goats to have a more level rump?
Am I right? If i'm not will u tell me what it is and explain your answer please.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Picture 1- The first one seems to have a tighter attachment with udders that are more forward
Picture 2 first kid. Because weak chine and loins break down with consecutive kidding.
Picture 3 this one i'm really not sure on but will guess...it makes them stand wrong
Pic 4...second one...i'm guessing here..explain this one please


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I thought u didn't want to have pronounced withers that they should blend. So it's better if they are more pronounced?
By the way I really appreciate everyone doing this for me. It's so hard starting out and learning to train your eye.


----------



## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

I've requested the ability to add an article --- ADGA's Linear Appraisal Handbook.

But until I get that, the link is http://www.lilbleats.com/la_handbook.pdf

It tells you all the great stuff along with pics. This might help too.


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

JaLyn said:


> Picture 1- The first one seems to have a tighter attachment with udders that are more forward
> Picture 2 first kid. Because weak chine and loins break down with consecutive kidding.
> Picture 3 this one i'm really not sure on but will guess...it makes them stand wrong
> Pic 4...second one...i'm guessing here..explain this one please


Good job!

Picture 3: Good guess. It's more that the hooves grow strangly due to uneven pressure, and it also could break their joints down more easily with age. :thumb:

Picture 4: The first one has the better front end assembly. The front end assembly is how the whole front half of the goat looks. Patti (first goat) has tighter shoulders and more of a brisket. As for the withers, you're right you do want them well blended, but you also want them pronounced. Her little tuft of hair on top of her withers makes them look sharper than they are.


----------



## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

EGADS this is hard  I always tell myself i will REALLY look at an animal before purchasing but then i see those doey eyes and i am lost......
Great job !


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

This is a fun thread!
Okay, so here are two of my Jr girls. Both of them have good conformation, but what are some trade offs between the two that you can see? 
Doe #1
















Doe #2


----------



## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

JaLyn said:


> First off remember i don't know what i'm looking for cause i'm learning so if i'm wrong please remember this lol
> I'm doing dairy but I'm still going to try with these.
> I can't find any fault. I'm not sure how the rump is supposed to look but my guess is you'd like on both goats to have a more level rump?
> Am I right? If i'm not will u tell me what it is and explain your answer please.


PERFECT! You're right on!! Nice job!


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Lil Bleats.... I love to read anything and everything on goats and want to learn, so thank you.

Woodhaven..I have a feeling the front end assembly will take me more practice to eye that. Do you have a pic of a goat that is shaved to show me what you mean on the withers? One that is correct and one that is too sharp to show me what you mean? If not that's ok. Thank you!!

Lost Prarie..Doe 2 has a flatter rump and slighly more pronounced wither. This is hard I'm having to look up terms of what to call the body parts. But I have to say they are sinking in. I think doe 1 has a better brisket. 

Dapple..I think meat goats are harder for me to tell on because they are a meatier type goat. I'm excited to know I got it right though.

You all are awesome by the way!!


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

That is correct about my two girls  The only other thing, doe #1 dorsal process is too high (meaning the backbone sticks out too much), and she also has better body capacity, but other than that, right on


----------



## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Yep, you really gotta get your hands on these guys to feel some of their faults as some can be hidden. Especially when you get into the show ring with heavily "conditioned" Boers... 

Great job though! You guessed exactly right. )


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Lost Prairie said:


> That is correct about my two girls  The only other thing, doe #1 dorsal process is too high (meaning the backbone sticks out too much), and she also has better body capacity, but other than that, right on


I still don't understand by what you mean that the backbone sticks out too much, do you mean it is too pointy? And the body capacity, is that the rib area you are talking about?

Dappled...Thank you!!!


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

JaLyn said:


> Woodhaven..I have a feeling the front end assembly will take me more practice to eye that. Do you have a pic of a goat that is shaved to show me what you mean on the withers? One that is correct and one that is too sharp to show me what you mean? If not that's ok. Thank you!!


I don't think I do have a picture like that ... sorry! I can post another picture of Patti without the tuft sticking up.

Young Patti:










And here's a picture of a dairy goat, you can see the withers.


----------



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

Here are a couple pics that I had in my files...  The spotted doe is just in a normal stance, but the little buckling is stacked. I already know their strengths/weaknesses, so critique away!


----------



## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

Jaylyn good job. Thanks Lost prairie, those were also great pics. It was a little easier for me to see being shaved and the same angle. I want to thank those of you who are posting this pics.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> I don't think I do have a picture like that ... sorry! I can post another picture of Patti without the tuft sticking up.
> 
> Young Patti:
> 
> ...


Are you saying that they should blend in but yet be a little pronounced but not sharp?


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

JaLyn said:


> Are you saying that they should blend in but yet be a little pronounced but not sharp?


Exactly. :thumb:


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Doe..withers to sharp, rump could be a little flatter,hjer front legs are turned out a little but could be the way she is standing also I noticed the curving of her thigh isn't as curved, is that just how nubians are or is that a slight fault?
Buck...IDK I can't find any fault. 

Clearwtrbeach. Thank you!!

I'm not sure if I mentioned this or not but still don't understand body capacity. How can you tell by looking at a goat if you don't have one to compare it to if it has good body capacity? How do you know if it's just right or too big or too little?

Also if anyone else that wants to learn and wants to jump in on this come on in. We can learn together..


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh this is a fun thread. I'm gonna lurk and learn.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Used2bmimi said:


> Oh this is a fun thread. I'm gonna lurk and learn.


Post with me...we can learn together.


----------



## TiffofMo (Jan 10, 2011)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> How fun! I'm game.
> 
> These are all my goats, so I'm not pointing out the faults of another herd. Just mine.  I'll list the answers do the questions below.
> 
> ...


Im also going to lurk and learn. I have one question how can you tell a bad chine from a good one? I did not know what it was tell i looked it up. The only thing i seen was the first one looked a little sway back is that a sign of a weak chine?


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

TiffofMo said:


> Im also going to lurk and learn. I have one question how can you tell a bad chine from a good one? I did not know what it was tell i looked it up. The only thing i seen was the first one looked a little sway back is that a sign of a weak chine?


Basically it's dipped in instead of straight across. Some breeders like it and consider it stylish. I for one do not think it is a good thing as it will break the back down with age due to the weight of the kids putting pressure on the weak chine.

I have two does with weak chines ... it's definitely not a good enough reason to sell them just for that. They have many other great points -- both are hardy, sweet, and have long, level rumps. The weak chine just one of their weaknesses I'd like to improve ... just like some of my other does with strong toplines have steeper rumps or toe out. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. :thumb:

Busy Bee has a slightly weak chine:










As does her daughter, Noodles (Leona Lionheart):










Clarisse has what I call a "strong" topline. It is not weak, and it is nice and flat.










Patti also has a nice, strong topline:










Gypsy has a strong topline, but it is also "roached" meaning it rounds out a bit TOO much.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Woodhaven..i love the pics and comparisons you are posting. The more you post the more i'm getting it.


----------



## TiffofMo (Jan 10, 2011)

Thank you Woodhaven. I think most of my does have the good strait back i think. So that's good, my main weakness is the end of the goat like the rump, udder arch and all that area.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I have a doe I bought (not knowing what to look for) that has a few things that I hope the buck i'm breeding to her helps correct in their offspring.

OK..i'm getting more of a feel for the briskit, topline and udder. Still not sure about the width, front leg assemble and legs in general.


----------



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

JaLyn said:


> Doe..withers to sharp, rump could be a little flatter,her front legs are turned out a little but could be the way she is standing also I noticed the curving of her thigh isn't as curved, is that just how nubians are or is that a slight fault?
> Buck...IDK I can't find any fault.


Yep, you're pretty close on the doe! Personally, I like to see sharp withers like hers on goats, but that's just me... Some may call it a fault, others call it a good trait. But everything else you said is right; her rump, while it's pretty darn level when she's stacked properly should still be more level, she does need more "rear leg angulation" (the curving of the thigh), and she does toe out a bit in the front.

The buck... Well, I'm still trying to find a fault.  Does anyone here see something? My first thought is that I'd like so see a bit more depth, but then he was only 8 weeks old in the pic so depth should come in time. The angle of the shot doesn't show his brisket extension, but it's really nice.

Here are some more goatie shots...


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

First goat has a steep rump,sharp withers, slightly weak chine,the first pic she looks a lil toed out but second pic she didn't.
Second goat...could use a lil flatter rump 
third goat...withers just a tad sharp and same rump as goat 2
fourth goat...weak chine, same rump as 2 and 3, teats turned out instead of forward (are they supposed to be that large?
fourth..awesome goat but briskit could be more pronounced..
That last one is soooo cute..I love the babies..


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Ok Jalyn here goes. Used to looking at my meat goats, but here's my guess on Goatsongs pics. They both seem to lack some depth in the heart girth, the doe seems to toe out in front and her brisket area looks off to me, but I can't decide if that is just the picture angle or if it's her. Also is the bucklings back a little weak?


----------



## ASTONs Dairy (Aug 14, 2012)

This was a great learning aide. Thank you JaLyn for asking for help. and everyone else for posting pics, and explanations. Love the website too. http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0085/UNP-0085.pdf another wonderful aide. :cheers:


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Does anyone else have some meat goat pics we could play with?


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Goat song round 2 wow, dairy goats are hard for me. Please don't take offense if I am wrong. First goat: Her neck could flow more smoothly into her withers. I guess I still don't really get what they are supposed to look like. They are supposed to go uphill right? Goat 2: IDK really she looks good to me. Goat 3: weak top line rear legs too straight, over at the knee in front. Goat 4: also weak top line but understandably so..sheesh. And too straight behind ? She is also standing over on her front legs, but I can' tell if that is conformation or position. Goat 5: and oh my! Sweet baby. IDK whew this is tough.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

dlnicholson


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Goat Song said:


> Yep, you're pretty close on the doe! Personally, I like to see sharp withers like hers on goats, but that's just me... Some may call it a fault, others call it a good trait.


I like the sharp withers too. For me I wouldn't consider something like that a fault because it doesn't effect their health at all. Much like how I don't see a doe not having a "dairy" face a fault ... you don't milk the face. :laugh:


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> I like the sharp withers too. For me I wouldn't consider something like that a fault because it doesn't effect their health at all. Much like how I don't see a doe not having a "dairy" face a fault ... you don't milk the face. :laugh:


n 
So is it considered a fault when showing?


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

JaLyn said:


> n
> So is it considered a fault when showing?


Purely the preference of the judge. Some judges will fault it, some judges will love it. Just one of those things.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> Purely the preference of the judge. Some judges will fault it, some judges will love it. Just one of those things.


K Thanks!!


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

Just remember when critiquing rumps that you do want them to slope off at an angle. A rump that's totally straight across isn't desirable...
Example:
Steep








Sloping off at a nice angle (ideal)


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

You also want their rumps long...A short rump reduces the capacity of the pelvis and may cause the udder attachment to be shortened from the front to the rear. RUmps can play a major role in how the does udder will look and how strong their attachments will be.


----------



## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

this may have been the most informative post I have ever seen!!!! Thanks all!


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Thanks Lost Prarie, that was very understandable and helpful


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Lost Prairie said:


> You also want their rumps long...A short rump reduces the capacity of the pelvis and may cause the udder attachment to be shortened from the front to the rear. RUmps can play a major role in how the does udder will look and how strong their attachments will be.


Also aids in an easier delivery!


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Does anyone have a pic of a long rump and a too short one on a nigerian dwarf? Cause now i'm confused on rumps. 
Lost Prarie, So you just don't want them to suddenly drop off?


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Short rump (not horribly steep, but could be longer and more level):










Long rump. It looks a bit steep in this picture, but he has given his daughters very long and level rumps. Super pleased with Mr. Puff Daddy.


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

Yes, you want them to slope off nicely, not suddenly drop off. 
Here are some more examples of short vs. long rumps.
short, though it's not too bad.








Long


----------



## AlecBGreen (Jul 7, 2009)

I second the call for meat goat critiques


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

It really helps you all showing pics while you explain. I have to say i've learned alot doing it this way, I really can't thank everyone enough!!

Woodhaven and Prairie..I think i'm starting to see what you mean. Looking at all these goats makes me want to go goat shopping though lol..


----------



## cybercat (Oct 18, 2007)

This thread should be a sticky. It has alot of great helpful information in it. Real clear explanations.


----------



## TiffofMo (Jan 10, 2011)

Ok i got one how can you tell if a goat has tight shoulders and elbows? Also i plan to buy a buckling next spring. Can you guy show what would make a good herd sire. I need to know what to look for because more then likely i will be buying based of a pic and to me they all look alike lol. And i know things change on babies. I know to get pics of sire and dam.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Tiff, thats what I have trouble with too, how to tell if it has tight shoulders and elbows.


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

If a goat has loose shoulders, their shoulders will move like a cats when they walk. You'll be able to stick your fingers under their shoulder blade. A goat with loose elbows will 'elbow out'
example: See how her elbows are not held tight to their body?









tight elbows


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

Tiffany, a good herdsire doesn't just have good conformation, but they also must have generations of quality behind them. A buck can have the best conformation in the world, he can be flawless, but it doesn't matter and he mindswell be a wether if his daughters don't freshen well and milk, milk, milk! You want a buck to have both nice conformation and to produce top of the line daughters/sons, but a buck with some conformational flaws can still be a very valuable part of the herd, if his daughters preform.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I have a feeling it's going to take me quite some time to be able to pick up on all this.

Riley..I do see what your saying though. I'm not sure I could pick it out on a single goat without having one to compare it too though..


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

This doe has slightly loose shoulders. When the head is held up you can't see it as much, but you can sort of see her shoulder blades sticking out a little bit. You can see them as she walks.










This doe is what I call "tight as a drum". Her shoulders and elbows are tight and not loose at all.










This doeling has loose elbows. You can see that as she walks.


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

It does take awhile to have a good eye and be able to pick a nice animal out. But you'll get there, it just takes time


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

This forum and my friend have helped me tremendously. It surprises me how much I've learned about goats in the last 6 months and showing and the standard in the last month. I honestly didn't think any of this would ever start to soak in but it has and I'm so eager to learn more. If someone were to ask me what my dream would be, it'd be to live on a huge farm somewhere in the middle of nowhwere surrounded by people that love me. I could live out the rest of my life with just that.


----------



## TiffofMo (Jan 10, 2011)

I think i can see i slight different. The lose ones i can see a line coming up from around there under arm area like the shape of there shoulder, the other ones i dont. Almost looks like there skin is tighter. Riley thanks my first buck i got Tiny Tales Jasper Furry came from some good lines. But after learning what to look for he was a pitiful site. Shorter then he was tall so narrow between his legs his testicles could not hang right lol and im sure there is more. She is bred to him and i do plan on keeping a couple of daughters as he did come from good milking lines. I know the hind end area is a big area i will need to see before i buy because the next buck has the be perfect in the rump and ether wide or extra wide in between his legs.


----------



## ASTONs Dairy (Aug 14, 2012)

critique please


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

O.K i'm gonna try ok lol...She seems to have a weak MSL, her rump is a tad steep (scared to evaluate rumps now lol) in the first pic she looks a lil toed out but that could be the way she's standing, plus she's standing on a sloped yard with grass, her chine is weak, and i can't tell from the angle for sure but it looks like she could use more brisket.


----------



## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

has anyone gone over width at thurl to thurl (important for delivery), rear udder arch, and udder depth?


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

Nope, haven't gone over mammary yet! lol


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Yay, time for the udders. :laugh:


----------



## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

Sorry meat folks --- 

Anyone game for udder talk (pics)? 
Scorecards are 35% mammary

Below are mammary areas -
Fore Udder Attachment
Rear Udder Height
Rear Udder Arch
Udder Depth
Teat Placement, Rear View
Teat Diameter
Medial Suspensory Ligament
Rear Udder, Side View


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I am totally game for udder talks. I would like to learn more about what to look for.


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

LOL! Guess it's time to pull out the udder pics :laugh:


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

No and i am so not sure what to look for on that area as u can tell.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

LilBleatsFarm said:


> Sorry meat folks ---
> 
> Anyone game for udder talk (pics)?
> Scorecards are 35% mammary
> ...


Oh my, I just thought there were udder attachment and teat placement. Boy have I got alot to learn


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

LOL! Nope, there are many, many things that make up a nice mammary 
This is an example of a doe with stong lateral attachments, globular shape, and correct teat placement and size.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Riley I think u uploaded the wrong pic..lol..but isn't she so cute though..


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

LOL! Yeah I just realized that and fixed it lol


----------



## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

I have a bunch of juniors .... 

And what udder pics I have on some of my older girls doesn't have the side pic ....

But here we go - 2nd Freshening









First Freshening









I've got Pansy but her legs on her rear shot are too far apart to get a good judging.....

HTH - it's not much


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

This doe has great rear attachment, and a beautiful udder floor. She has good teat size and placement.










This doe is a first freshener so it isn't quite fair to compare. But she lacks in rear attachment, and could use more of an udder floor. Her teats will probably get larger as she ages.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Is their teats supposed to point forward?


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I understand the attachment but not really anything else..


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

No, you want their teats to point straight down.


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

Just ask anything, I'm sure these goat crazy people will help answer your ?'s


----------



## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

here is info on teats


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

LilBleats, Is the middle pics the way you want the teats to be?
Riley..Basically everything that lilbleats mentioned when she brought up mammary. I don't really understand the mammary part of the goat. But same with the rest I will get there, thanks to you all


----------



## rosti (Feb 1, 2011)

What is the good and wrong with these udders?


----------



## rosti (Feb 1, 2011)

JaLyn said:


> LilBleats, Is the middle pics the way you want the teats to be?......


Yes.


----------



## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

Actually - I think the pics show the extremes on either side but mammary makes up 35% of a scorecard - so you want as high as numbers as possible in all mammary areas.

In evaluating the mammary system, the appraiser considers capacity and shape, rear and fore udder attachments, texture, and teats. A capacious, strongly attached, well-carried udder of good quality, indicating heavy production and a long period of usefulness, is preferred. Udders with the following characteristics are rated Excellent of Very Good; long, wide, strongly attached, and capacious udder that extends well forward, with a high, wide, rear udder attachment and halves that are evenly balanced and symmetrical; a fore udder that is carried well forward, is tightly attached, and blends smoothly into the body; a texture that is soft, pliable, elastic, and free of scar tissue, so that the udder collapses well after milking; and teats that are uniform, of convenient length and size, cylindrical in shape, free from obstructions, set square and properly placed, and easy to milk. Goats with short, bulgy, or loose fore udders; low, narrow, loose, or pinched rear udders' and udders that are tilted or pendulous are rated Fair or Poor. Udders intermediate in strength of attachment, balance, capacity, cleavage, and texture are rated Good Plus or Acceptable. ​We also need to realize there are faults in the mammary system that should be identified too -

Udder Tilted
Udder Twisted
Extremely short fore udder
Undersirable udder texture
Unbalanced udder
Blind udder half
teats too small
teats too long
teats lack dilineation
abnormal teat placement
abnormal teat shape
extra teats
teats point out
blind teat
dbl teat or orifice
misplaced orifice
leaking orifice
congested udder
blemished udder

All this info and more is in ADGA's LA handbook that I gave a link to earlier.

HTH,


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Rosti..Honestly I have no idea. I can't tell unless it's something really obvious. I have the hardest time with this. I am going to take a guess and say on the second doe here rear attachment could be better.The udder doesn't look as round as some i've seen but not sure if this matters or not. Her right teat seems to be slightly larger then the left, just slightly though.Her udder is also bumpy looking, again there i'm not sure if that matters. Her udder also seems to be hanging lower than it should.
The first pic all looks good to me other the her teats bow out just a tad.
I'm so lost on the mammary system of a doe


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

Lil BLeats. I"m writing all this down so I can go over it til it sinks in.


----------



## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

Jalyn, If I have a page I really like, I click and save it on my favorites for easy reference. Just an idea


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I will do that too. I have a binder full of all kinds of notes i'm taking so when I sit on the couch I can go over them. I write down everythng that has to do with goats lol


----------



## rosti (Feb 1, 2011)

JaLyn said:


> Rosti..Honestly I have no idea. I can't tell unless it's something really obvious. I have the hardest time with this. I am going to take a guess and say on the second doe here rear attachment could be better.The udder doesn't look as round as some i've seen but not sure if this matters or not. Her right teat seems to be slightly larger then the left, just slightly though.Her udder is also bumpy looking, again there i'm not sure if that matters. Her udder also seems to be hanging lower than it should.
> The first pic all looks good to me other the her teats bow out just a tad.
> I'm so lost on the mammary system of a doe


From what I know about it, everything you said is right (correct me if I'm wrong) except for one teat being larger than the other. The picture just makes it look like that.


----------



## ASTONs Dairy (Aug 14, 2012)

Thank you JaLyn, I am still learning too, tell me again please, what is MSL? and I am still not sure how to evaluate the Brisket. What part is that? I agree her rump is to steep. When she is standing flat (not on a hill) her chine doesn't look quite so weak. She needs a good trim and that may be the reason she looks a little toed out. Her front attachment is not strong,very poor from what I have seen here, and when her udder is full she is heart shaped, (don't know if that's a good thing or not). Her teats point forward and up. Is this good or not?

Observations or answers from anyone/everyone. Come on now, don't be scared, I want honest opinions, promise your opinions will NOT hurt my feelings. I am trying to decide if I want to keep this doe or take her to the sale. She also has been giving me a fit at milking time. She doesn't want to get on the stand and with every milking tries to put her foot in the bucket. The milk is not worth the fight, even though I am getting 1/2 gal. milking once a day. This is her FF and the milk taste pretty good.


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

MSL=medial suspensory ligament..It's the line that divides the two udder halves. 
This would be an example of a stong MSL









The brisket is the goats chest. You want it to be prominant.
Example:


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

The area below the neck and before the front legs is called the brisket-you might call it a chest. You want it to be prominant.
The udder you don't want it to hang like a sack. MSL...This is what divides the udder into two halves, it's the line down hte middle..
Just to let you know i'm passing on info i've been told. I"m still learning and have a LONG way to go.


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

Here are some easy to understand diagrames. 
































Anatomy.


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I have a couple of meat goats that you can evaluate. I *think* I know their faults, others, feel free to interject.

Attitude's sire @ 6 years old clean 2x2 teat structure









Attitude @ 4 months 2x2 one small split teat, other side clean
















attitude @ 9 months









Widow @ 7 months 1x2 fishtail teat 

























Adeleine @ 14 months 1/2 nubian 1x1 









Azrael @ 6 months 1x1 87% kiko


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

!st, weak chine, steep rump, his back looks higher than his front(not sure if he's on level ground or not) since he's walking thats all i can tell
2nd his topline looks more leveled compared to his sire, rump a tad short,
3rd skip
4th..he looks good here 
5th she looks pretty good..her topline could be straighter
It's hard for me to tell on meat goats..anyone wanna jump in..


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Ok I'll try. But please keep in mind I am asking, not telling. I really have a lot to learn. 
Attitude's sire: does seem to have a weak top line. I do see a lot of meat goats have a taller hind end especially when compared to dairy where the angle is important. Is that a fault? Also pasterns are weak. Also since we can see the point of the shoulder blade does that mean he is loose there?

Attitude: hard to tell with the moving pics but has better pasterns. Back seems to have same problem as sire, but otherwise what we can see is nice.
Widow: same issue with top line, otherwise nice overall, nice width (of course the teat is a problem too).
Adeleine: seems nice, front end doesn't match back end in substance.
Azrael: the rear legs are the only real issue I see here. Maybe a little posty and toes out behind. 

I am willing to offer up any or all of my goats for practice too, if someone will tell us how we are doing on our evaluations.


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Attitude's sire has a weak topline, short, fairly steep rump, weak chine, no muscling through the hindquarter, broken down pasterns. His good points are primarily parasite resistance, tough feet (he hasn't been trimmed in 3 years in that photo), decent brisket and good teat/scrotal structure. He looks better in person, but he's still got a lot of flaws.

His son inherited his problems, and his pasterns will break down over time as well. Otherwise he's a bit smoother over the topline, with a more defined brisket. He inherited his sire's feet and hardiness, which is a plus.

Widow is a doe with many of the same problems. Weak chine, steep high rump, not much brisket, still a bit narrow, though that may be age. However, she's got a good leg set, good bone and a nice overall feminine look/build.

Adeleine is a lot harder to judge given I had zero good pics of her, but the same topline problems are there, along with cow hocks in the back. However, she's got good bone, good brisket, a stronger chine than the others, and an excellent udder, even if it was pretty small this year.

Azrael (all 3 pics are of him) would be the best of the lot (and I do regret selling him), with a smooth topline, stronger chine, wider frame, good legset, smoother rump (it's still steep, but considerably better), nice brisket. His primary faults are toeing out a bit in the back, and at least at that age, not a lot of muscle definition.

These are only what I see, someone more knowledgable feel free to interject. Also, keep in mind Attitudeis a "terminal" sire, meaning all of his kids are destined for slaughter, and not to be kept as breeding stock.


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

oh ha ha I thought Widow was a strange name for the shaved buck!!! Ok that's attitude and the one I said was "next" was Widow. Gotcha! Gonna go edit my earlier post to get the names right!


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I get confused doing the meat goats so used2..u do those lol..i will stick with dairy lol


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh and thank you so much for the meat goat pics to evaluate. Here are a few of my goats, I can do more if anyone wants, these are just handy on my computer. The first and second are a five month old buckling, next is an older doe Bubbles from the side and from behind (sorry I know it will be tough to see much in the pictures with her head down and all) and the last picture is a young doe Charlotte. Have fun and don't be shy, I won't be offended!


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Awe come on Jalyn, I tried the dairy too!! LOL it's tough huh? give it a whirl!


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Okay, here's a diary girl taking a whirl at them meat goats. :laugh:

Pic 3: Chine is slightly roached, and she has a short rump. Her back legs are posty ... but I don't know if any of those things are "bad" in the meat goat world. She seems a little short-bodied.

Pic 5: A weak chine, but pulling away from the handler will aggravate that trait. Loose elbows.


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

OK..u talked me into it lol
Buckling..in the first pic he looks to have a weak chine he may be slightly toed out but i'm half blind and can't see the pic that well lol..
Bubbles..rear end in first pic seems to be up awfully high..Gosh I just dont know.meat goats are hard to see anything on if you ask me..they are so pretty though..


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Yay you did it! I think Bubbles has a short, posty rear end too. The little doe was indeed pulling away from me in that picture (she is not used to being handled) but clearly has a weak chine. I also think the chine is the major flaw in the buckling too. He seems to pinch in just after the withers. I am hoping he grows out of it, because the rest of him is awesome! Anybody who knows please feel free to jump in and correct us or confirm!


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Used2bmimi said:


> oh ha ha I thought Widow was a strange name for the shaved buck!!! Ok that's attitude and the one I said was "next" was Widow. Gotcha! Gonna go edit my earlier post to get the names right!


Ah, it's alright. I don't often call them by their names anyway. Actually, Widow has never been shaved except for the right shoulder (facing the fence). That's all natural and curly hair.

Just for clarity, my group was 3 bucks and 2 does; Attitude's sire, then Attitude, then Widow, then Addy, followed by Azrael. Adeleine was actually a succesful show goat before I got her, so obviously she's got some redeeming qualities the judges liked. However, I'm better at judging dairy, not meat, so my critiques may be off.


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

LOL, no what I meant was that I didn't realize that there were three pics of Attitude. I thought that the pic of him shaved was Widow. That is what I meant by a strange name...it's not strange at all when I match it with the correct goat! I'm such a dingbat! I actually really like all of your goats, especially the does. It is just that we are looking carefully for any flaws, and sometimes reaching for straws. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Oh ok, now I see what you mean. Yeah, Attitude looks completely different from when he was a baby. His legs grew, nothing else did. Not exactly a desirable trait, but I'm hoping his kids won't grow funky until after market weight/age. He looked nice as a kid, and he's very slowly growing back into those proportions. As he is in that last photo, he would normally be wethered, and I plan on replacing him come spring, but good genes are there and I'm hoping he throws more like his pig-butt dam (stocky SA type doe).


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh I'd for sure give him a little more time to grow. Teenagers of every species can get so gangly and awkward looking. I still think he's a nice boy. Tell me please, why do you think his pasterns will break down?


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

His sire isn't even 7 and he's already practically walking on his fetlocks. I'm not sure how old or how well his dam gets around, but odds are good that Attitude will go down the same path. I'm keeping his feet trimmed up though, something his sire doesn't get, though I don't know if that would affect it much. Of course Attitude is almost a yearling (December is his birthday) and he's still upright and springy, if his hyper racehorse impression is any indication.

That reminds me-I do have a few videos if anyone wants to try and judge from them.


----------



## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Lol,...well I hope he stays in racehorse mode for you and sires a gaggle of great kids too!


----------

