# Large Udder & Teats



## meganmts (Mar 22, 2017)

Hi all, had new twins last night! Willow is a great 3rd time mama but her udder is massive. Baby boy can't figure out yet how to get down low enough to grab a teat, and teats are bigger than his mouth anyway. He did receive colostrum feeding via bottle multiple times through the night & today (I'm going every 3-3.5 hours). Baby girl refuses bottle but has figured out how to go low on mom & does suck & swallow from the teat when I help support it, again, too big for her mouth. I'm confident she has received colostrum multiple times as well, just unsure on the amount. I've been reassured by my over-the-phone goat mentors that in a few days they will catch on to mama, but I am concerned I am making a bottle baby out of the buck when Willow is perfectly capable of raising him herself. 

Any tips on transferring to the teat? I do try to shove it in his mouth but he fights & screams bloody murder even if he gets a taste. He does still turn to her when he's hungry & he's a plucky little thing. I am planning to milk Willow some more tonight & save some colostrum, maybe that'll help reduce udder & teat size to make it easier? She's a boer but rivals a Holstein in milk production! Any advice is greatly appreciated! I'm working on patience


----------



## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Yes, I’d milk her out some. It should help bring the size of the teat down, for now. And then they should get the hang of it. 
Watch them closely to make sure they are gettting enough milk. 

Congratulations on the twins!


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes it's very tricky to teach them to kneel to the udder. Skip a bottle and let him get very hungry and then keep trying to get him latched. It is insanely frustrating but keep your patience and don't let him sense you are frustrated. Tie up the doe so you don't have to wrestle them both. You might milk out her udder a good bit to decrease the teat size and raise it up a bit. Keep up the hard work!

As a side note - if her udder and teats are not easy for kids to latch & nurse from at birth, you should strongly consider if that is a trait you want to continue in your herd or not. It will be passed down to offspring and future generations. High milk production is great! But only if it is associated with good udder attachment.


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

SalteyLove said:


> As a side note - if her udder and teats are not easy for kids to latch & nurse from at birth, you should strongly consider if that is a trait you want to continue in your herd or not. It will be passed down to offspring and future generations. High milk production is great! But only if it is associated with good udder attachment.


Every syllable of this is true.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All good advice.
Congrats.


----------



## meganmts (Mar 22, 2017)

For some reason I missed the updates, apologies! I milked about 1/2 gallon off of mom after babies ate. I was still able to get more milk but teat size was greatly reduced, woke Emil & Scribbles up & they both latched & ate on their own. I did go out & check them every 3 hours yet & got them up to eat. They did need me to help stabilize the teat, but both ate good. Last night (Tuesday night) I did night check & noticed they were both nursing on their own, they didn't need me anymore, success! At my 1 AM check (other expecting doe) I noticed the one teat was huge & the other was small. Looks like babies are nursing on one side primarily. Debating the need to milk that side out a bit every day until babies start using it? But then this afternoon when I let them out of the barn to play in the RARE 40 degree sunshiney February weather I saw them both nurse from that side. I probably should have mentioned I am a first time goat-mom, so yes, I am overthinking things! 

And I agree SalteyLove, we just bought this gal in November & I mentioned to my 11 year old daughter/business partner that we may need to think on it a bit more.


----------



## kmoore9184 (Sep 23, 2015)

My oldest doe has a really large low udder. The last time she kidded the one kid latched on easily and the other was a bottle baby for about 5 days. I tried every 4 hours to get her to eat and bottle fed her until I knew that she was strong enough to go a while without eating and then stopped bottle feeding her and she eagerly latched on. Momma goat was more than willing to let her eat and did her best to help her get positioned. Once she figured it out she nursed really well. It just takes a little patience sometimes


----------



## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

How are they doing?


----------



## meganmts (Mar 22, 2017)

Emil is nursing primarily from the larger side! Yay! Scribbles is a dainty sipper so she stays to the smaller side. It's supposed to be in the high 40's this weekend so they will spend more time outside. Just took some time


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good to here.


----------



## meganmts (Mar 22, 2017)

New issue with new mama. HUGE hard udder, no fever, no changes in behavior. Kids have seemed satisfied up until tonight. She has teeny tiny teats. I tried milking her out, no easy feat. Milk looks clear & normal. Vet stopped by tonight said she didn’t think it was mastitis but to watch her. Decided to start milking the other gal that started this thread since I need to do a little every day anyway. The cats aren’t getting milk anymore, may have to start supplementing babies. Ugh. Here’s a question, I have 1/2 gallon of frozen colostrum from Willow. Will it hurt to give it to the kids that were born 3 days ago? Otherwise I’m going to flush it since I won’t use it. Thanks!


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Fresh Parsley, and vitamin C is good for this.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Milk her out. Hot compresses, massage, milk out. Repeat as many times per day as possible.


----------



## meganmts (Mar 22, 2017)

I’ve tried milking her out three times now, I barely get anything. I wonder if that is due to my experience, or due to the fact that I can barely get two fingers on her teat. They are only about 1 1/2 inches long. This is her third time kidding. 

I will try to find some parsley, just sprinkle it on her feed?


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If you cannot milk the proper way. Milk by gently striping the teat. go to the top of the teat an strip downward, see if that helps. With my first timers that works until I can get enough out to start milking the proper method. 
massage, Hot compresses, then try milking her instantly after.

Allowing her babies on her, may help.


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

toth boer goats said:


> Allowing her babies on her, may help.


I agree. They can nurse far more often than you can milk.



toth boer goats said:


> Milk by gently striping the teat. go to the top of the teat an strip downward


Yes, definitely try this, because it does work. The only thing I would add is to use some kin of lubrication to help your thumb and finger slide. I like bag balm, but anything like that will work, Vaseline, lard. The point is to slide the fingers, not pull the skin.



meganmts said:


> I will try to find some parsley, just sprinkle it on her feed?


Dehydrated won't work, it needs to be fresh. About a small handful. Nursing humans find it very helpful if their breasts become hard and congested and the milk won't come. And vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is very supportive of breast tissue.

And of course the warmth of the compresses and the massaging is essential.


----------



## meganmts (Mar 22, 2017)

Ok, Vet said it’s congested not mastitis, so I searched a lot on here & online to find some aids. I paid overnight to have some stuff shipped, peppermint udder cream, an extra absorbent towel for heat compress (still trying to figure out how to do that, YouTube here I come!) I started massage tonight, she seemed to like it! I was able to milk her a bit, flow was inconsistent but again, milk seemed very normal. I feel terrible for her, it’s so hard. I will stop at the store for some vitamin C tomorrow & see if they have parsley. We’re in a small town so sometimes it’s hard to come by. 

Babies are on her full time, I am supplementing them a little with Willows milk just to be sure they’re getting enough to survive. They seem happy & healthy, so something must be working. Just not quite like we’d hoped.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Glad you know what it is and will treat.

I use a hot water bottle, it holds the heat better longer for hot compresses.

May I ask what Willows milk is?


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I took that to mean milk from an animal named Willow. Which is a lovely name, if that is so.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

LOL, yep, I bet that is it.


----------



## Korita (Jan 11, 2018)

I’m new to goats myself and impatiently waiting for my first kidding and milking. But, I’ve had 3 human babies and peppermint (in humans anyway) can decrease milk supply. So I would be careful using s peppermint udder cream on her so it doesn’t decrease her supply.


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Korita I think you are correct about Peppermint oil in general. I would say that here, if I have a really bad congestion issue, that I'd be willing to risk that the effect would be correctable, and that I would desire the congestion to go away before harm is caused.

Later, if I'm not able to correct and bring back production, then I'd just tell myself that there is always next year, but at least this year, I tried to help.

Again, I think you are right.


----------



## meganmts (Mar 22, 2017)

Ah! Yes, Willow is the mama with the giant Holstein cow udder that started this thread lol! Sorry for the confusion! Willow's babes are nursing off her perfectly from both sides now. And she has plenty to supplement Trinket's a bit. 

Poor Trinket is still hard as a rock. I'm losing faith.... just happy she seems otherwise happy & healthy. I work during the week, but tomorrow I don't have a whole lot going on. I'm going to try to spend the whole day at the barn massaging every hour for 10ish minutes at a time. Seems excessive to my not so animal loving husband, but I'm going to slowly go insane if I can't "fix" her! The store didn't have vitamin C, had to order it, hopefully tonight! And parsley was a no go as well. They said likely today. Small towns! 

I've been researching, all I can find for a cause of this is CAE? I will have all of mine tested but I don't think she's positive? Any other thoughts on causes? 

I appreciate it!


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Your town does not have a single store that has vitamin C???? Fresh parsley, I get that, but vitamin C really is a surprise to me.

I live in a small town, but I have a Dollar General, a grocery store, and a drugstore that have vitamin C that I can buy. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I did not think my town would ever offer more than another town!

Another suspected cause of this is excess protein (excess to what the doe can process, which can vary from doe to doe) There may be more causes, I don't know.


----------



## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

meganmts said:


> I've been researching, all I can find for a cause of this is CAE? I will have all of mine tested but I don't think she's positive? Any other thoughts on causes?


If she were mine, I'd want to know asap if she were negative or positive. It's the kind of thing that is touchy; as in, if she is positive you absolutely don't want to use her milk for goat babies as it is highly infective to them (for you it's safe). You're correct that a congested udder is a major symptom.

Also, vit C for humans is fine to use for goats


----------



## meganmts (Mar 22, 2017)

Yeah... it’s an interesting town lol! 

I know. Like I said I’m learning as I go. The CAE thing came up today. Vet can test tomorrow. I’m doing what I can. Just trying to do the best I can & learn......


----------



## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

The vet will most likely take a blood test for cae. the blood test is very inaccurate. if your goat has a sniffle the test will be positive. in your case expect it to be positive. The most accurate test it the colostrum test. I had one doe that tested probable the first test and marginal on the second test. and with the colostrum test not even close. we tested her so many times because the rest of my herd 23 does where negative even her kids were negative. it just didn't make sence to us that she could be positive


----------



## meganmts (Mar 22, 2017)

So.... testing is a waste of time if they no longer have colostrum & the only option is blood? I’ve read so many articles my head is spinning trying to keep it straight lol!


----------



## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

No The blood test is good when it says your negative but it Is wrong too often if there is an illness the goat is dealing with or recovering from. do the blood test and see how it comes out. if it is not good wait three or four months and test again.


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

fivemoremiles said:


> The blood test is good when it says your negative but it Is wrong too often if there is an illness


So what I hear you saying is, the negative test results are most often true, but the positive test results can be false positives if the goat is or recently has been ill. And to test a positive again in a few months when the goat is probably better, and if it is positive again it is likely not a false positive. Am I reading you correctly?

What do you do with your goats that test positive that you want to test again in a few months? Do you quarantine them?


----------



## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

yes we quarantine them cae is nothing to play with.
in our case we tested for cae and when we were waiting for the results the buck got out and bread our goats. so we quarantined the goat and waited for the birth.


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

My buck is the same! I feel like building an Alcatraz for him!!!

But so I am clear, you are saying that the positive test results are more suspect than the negative test results?


----------



## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

The negative blood test are positively negative. That is clear as mud.
the blood results are given on a sliding scale. I do not remember the scale but it is like if you are under 15 you are clean if you are a 15 to 20 you are marginal and over 20 you were positive. the marginal and positive reading may not be from CAE but from a cold, fever, or even high worm load.


----------



## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

What @fivemoremiles is saying about false positives is true, and about that any other immune "thing" or stressors going on make false positives more likely. To @fivemoremiles' list of cold, fever, or high worm load, add a recent move, a feed change, herdmate change, coming into heat or rut, etc, etc., though of course these stressors won't necessarily or predictably cause a false positive. Basically, any stress on the goat's system is suspect to cause a false positive.

In terms of results, each goat and each test has it's own baseline each and every time it's run. It's based on how much binding there is from that goat, at that time, on the control test; and then comparing that result with how much binding there is of their antibodies when the test is run with proteins from CAE. Goat antibodies are sticky and hard to work with, even for proteins (that's really saying something). Some labs don't print the control or test results as part of the information they give you, I have a strong preference for labs that include that information.


----------



## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

when one of my does kidded her udders and teats got huge! I would spray the milk from the teat on their face and they soon learned where the milk was coming from and it made her teats smaller so they could latch on.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice.


----------



## meganmts (Mar 22, 2017)

Head. Spinning. Thank you!!


----------



## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

i have had goats for ten years and my head still spinning


----------

