# Any advice would be appreciated



## DiamondGems (Jan 29, 2009)

Hi all, I am new here. I have a small farm in Eastern Washington which consists of 6 Nubian goats, horses, chickens, a couple of bottle calves that my daughters take to the fair, a bunny, plus our dog and cats. I was raised on a farm, and feel fairly comfortable with most things, however I am at an emotional loss as to this problem.

4 of my does are bred, and we started kidding last week. My first doe had 2 beautiful, healthy babies, she is doing great! This is her 5th freshening, and she produces more milk than I ever know what do to do with. She usually raises her babies, lets anyone steal milk who is hungry, plus I milk enough to raise a bottle calf.

My second doe started kidded Sun night. This is her 2nd freshening, and she did great last year, no interventions at all except to help dry the babies off. Her labor seemed off to me somewhat, her water broke (a huge gush with a push following a bubble presentation) then nothing for over an hour. It was as if the labor had stopped. She then had another bubble presentation, and a perfectly positioned kid was delivered, again, all I did was help dry her off, she was fairly large. Within 20 minutes, another bubble, and another baby (a huge buck). She had no more pawing of the ground, no more laying down/getting up (which is what she did after the first baby was born). She drank over a gallon of water, proceeded to clean her babies, and was acting great! After 30 minutes or so, I bounced her belly and felt nothing. I stayed with her for 2 hours, and during that time she started to pass the placenta. 

It was really late, I had been at a snowmobile bucket run all day, and by now had been up almost 24 hours. I left them be, healthy babies, eating well, dry and warm. 

All day yesterday I battled with the buck, who wasn't nearly as strong as the doeling. I noticed quite a few times that she still had the placenta hanging down, but she was acting alright. By last night, I applied a little tension to the placenta, and it felt right, like it was about to detach and deliver. So I let it be. But at my 4 am check, (I go up every 2 hours) she was laying like she was pushing again, and was quite ganted up. I gloved up and reached in to help her deliver the placenta, and there was another kid's back pressed up hard against her pelvis. I cried so much, but knew I had to get that baby out. I was able to turn it, and get it delivered. I gave her a shot of Penicillin, and she ate a few pieces of bread and a carrot for me, still not drinking despite all of my offers. She is caring for her babies, but is definitely "off" I don't know if she is acting this way because of the ordeal, or because something more is wrong. I gave her a dose of nutri drench, but what more can I do? She has no discharge, no bleeding, nothing. I don't know for sure if the whole placenta delivered, or if only partially delivered since it was trying to pass that last kid.

Any thoughts or suggestions? I have a call into my vet. Should I have given her more penicillin. The bottle says 1 cc per 100 lbs, so in my panic, that's what I gave her, but my mind keeps second guessing that I should have given her more 3-4 cc/100 lbs?
I've tried to attach a picture of her 2 spotted babies.
Thanks for listening
Cristi


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

With Penicillin the dosing for goats (that we use and have always heard of) is 1cc per 20 lbs. given 5-7 days in a row. Miss a day and you start over. Does she have a temp now?


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Pen G is 1cc per 20 lbs. 

Try giving her some molasses water. Do you have any cmpk? That would be useful as well.

If she still wont drink for you then get your vet to give you some lactated ringers solutions to give her SQ until she does start drinking.


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## DiamondGems (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks ladies

I'll go give her a bigger dose of the Penicillin. I knew that wasn't a large enough dose, but was pretty shaken when I came down to get it, so I know my mind wasn't working right. My vet is on a farm call, and won't be in a for another hour or so. 

I've tried warm molasses water, (that's what I give all of my does after they kid) but will keep trying.

So far, no temp, I'll keep checking that as well.

Thanks again


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Cristi,

First of all WELCOME to The Goat spot. :wave: We are really happy that you are here.

Second of all Congratulations on the new babies and the quick thinking. I had a doe four yearrs ago do pretty much the same thing. She delivered twins, ok I put them away and all was fine. Well 20 hours later she was on the ground and kind of dug a hole from thrashing around. So I gloved up and went in. Same thing. I pulled a baby out. I was so mad that this baby was black (she had only had white), that I threw it on the ground and it started her heart back up and I have her still to this day. She smelled so bad when she was born I can not even tell you, so to say the least mom did not want her at all. 
I called a friend panicked also asking what to do, she said to get her calcium in her right away. (this is mom now). So I went into the house got a huge hand full my calcium pills crushed them up and she ate all the powder. She started to act better in no time. So I would get some CMPK if you have it or even better yet crush some calcium pills of yours if you have them and offer them to her. 
Now some people will say i ma wrong but this same doe did the same thing last year, so I go into almost all my does when they are done kidding because I tried to bounce her both times and I never felt another baby either. I have never ever given a antibiotic after I have gone in and I did not give her any either year that I almost lost her.

Good luck and Good for you for going in and getting that other one out.


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## DiamondGems (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks Sweetgoats for sharing your experience. It's a terrible feeling that's for sure. I haven't lost a baby in 5 years, and never had a situation like this. You were lucky to have such a great outcome. 

My vet suggested I go back in and see if I could feel another baby (mostly for my own piece of mind and hers). Fearing the worst, I decided to do so. I can honestly say, I've never felt inside a goat after she's kidded, so I'm not 100% sure that everything is alright. the lining of the uterus was really bumpy, but felt fairly firm. She had a little bit of bleeding, and a clot (small dime sized) but really nothing else that I could tell. If the placenta remainder of the placenta was in there, I didn't feel it. 

She has eaten a little bit more, some hay, a few bites of grain and CalfManna, 2 pieces of bread, 3 carrots and a banana (her favorite treats). She had the NutriDrench at about 6, so I will repeat that at 2. No one has CMPK around here, the nutridrench is the closest thing. It has the Calcium/phos/selinium/Vit ADE and dextrose. I don't have any Calcium tablets, but offered her a couple of my daughters Calciums, which she promptly spit back at me. She's fairly tender on her left back leg, I imagine she's really sore all over. Both babies are doing well, they seem to be having to work a little more for their milk, but they've been up and eating many times today, with full tummies, clear urine, and lots of poops, and a mommy who is doing a great job taking care of them despite what she's going through.

Any more thoughts? I would hate to miss something else. I wish there was more I could do. I'm almost dreading my other does kidding now, for fear something more could go wrong. I can't wait for the kids to be big and healthy and bucking around so I can relax a little. I've been to the barn atleast twice every hour since 4 this morning, I'm tired and mentally drained.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

welcome! So sorry to hear of your struggles. Seems like she is just weak from her ordeal.. Great thinking on your part to notice what was going on. :thumb: 

Nutri Drench is good but if you can crush up some Tums and then add a little water to syringe them into her that would be good. 

A B complex shot will help her appetite


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I'm not positive, but I think she still has placenta in there if it felt bumpy. You know the bumps on the placenta after they expel it? Is that what it felt like?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

if that is the case Ashely would the penicilian be enough to keep her out of danger? I think so but dont want to give bad advise.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Until she can get stronger antibiotics the pen will have to do. It's better than nothing. She probably needs a shot of oxytocin _if_ her cervix is still open. The vet can also flush her out and put antibiotics directly into her uterus depending on the skill of the vet. I know mine wouldn't do that with Xcell because he had never done it on a goat.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Cristi,

Don't fret over the other doe. i am sure she will be fine.

Like Stacey said try the Tums. If she will eat them let her have a handful, beings they are flavored most goats will eat them right up.

Keep us posted and tell us how she is doing. Now when I have gone in and felt around it seems like the placenta always comes right out after that. Does she still have any hanging from her? I do agree with the Oxytocin.


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## DiamondGems (Jan 29, 2009)

You all are such great help!

She is currently standing up with her head in the hay manger. I had forgotten I had a little bottle of children's tums. so I crushed a handful, mixed with water and gave them to her in a syringe. She hated it, but that kind of made me feel better that she was showing even more strength. 

I don't think what I felt was placenta, but I could be wrong, the entire uterine lining was lumpy feeling (like a brain) and I couldn't feel an edge like a placenta has. I was thinking it felt that way because the uterus was contracted down on itself. 

We have 2 vets in the area, one is 20 minutes away, and he charges $25 to talk to you on the phone, even if he doesn't do anything. My usual vet (who I called this morning) is an hour away. I called the closer vet to get some Oxytocin, (the bottle I have had gotten cracked and was sitting in the vet cabinet empty). I talked to his assistant because he was out working some horses, and she called back and told me "No" to the oxytocin. "If she hasn't passed the placenta, go in and get it." It's so frustrating talking to her! When I told her I had gone in, but wanted the Oxytocin to be on the safe side, she told me "No". My vet said this morning that I could give her some Oxytocin if I felt I needed to, but that she thought she would be alright without it. She has nothing hanging from her, hasn't since this morning when I pulled the baby. She did have a little bleeding when she peed, but that seems normal with all my girls after they kid.

I'll see how she's doing when my husband gets home from work, and will probably go get some Oxytocin them. I hate to leave my goaties alone for 2 hours.

What stronger antibiotic should I give her?

Thanks again for your great help. I think I got the picture to post. Now you can see my 2 beautiful spotted babies and their mommy.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

awe  

I think that she should be alright. The vet who said just pull it out :shocked: goodness dont they know that it could tear the lining of the uterous and cause internal bleeding :scratch: sometimes I wonder at the advise given.

I would stick with the penicillin for 5 days, if that doesn't work you can switch to LA 200 (or the like). make sure you give it at the rate of 1cc per 20lbs and you can give this twice a day too.

Did you give her any B complex? that really works to perk them up and entice them to eat. 

is she eating any grain? I wouldnt doubt that she is tired and that is all it could be. Tired and sore. Beings that she was laboring with that last kid in such an odd position.


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

I am sorry you have having problems, but I think you're doing the best you can, and I hope your doe feels better soon.

Those babies are absolutely GORGEOUS! They remind me of tiny fawns.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

After I went in on Dawn I believe it was Excenel that I was told to give her. 

I tried to look it up on my vet bill invoices.. but I think thats the only invoice I am missing. And dang! I just realized where all my money went last year. :shocked: :shocked: 

Keep giving the Pen G and if she shows no improvement then I would go to Excenel.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Welcome from Idaho :wave: 

I am glad that everything is working out for you and the kids are just absolutely beautiful!!!

What part of Eastern Washington are you in? I live just outside of Spokane about an hour!!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Welcome from PA :wave: 

Sounds like you have gotten all the help you needed....so sorry you lost the third baby, but my goodness are those some adorable little "long ears"and Mom should continue to recover, you know your goats and I would continue with the nutri drench at least once a day til she is getting her full appetite back. :hug:


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## DiamondGems (Jan 29, 2009)

She seems to be getting a little better. She's eaten some grain and Calf Manna along with her hay. I gave her another dose of Penicillin. I'll continue with the Nutri Drench on a daily basis. I still haven't seen her drink much, and she is awfully ganted up. She is standing much better, and I opened her pen up (doubles it's size, so she can walk around a lot more. The babies are doing well, which is a great blessing. She is such a wonderful mom! I know her milk supply is down from the ordeal, so I may give the babies a little boost with some of her colostrum I milked early yesterday when the buck was so weak. I called my vet back and she said she figured we were alright without the oxytocin given the way she was acting now, but I will for sure pick up a bottle tomorrow from her to have on hand in case any other disasters strike.

Kelebek: I live in Diamond, WA (we are about 1 1/2 hours from Spokane down towards Pullman) I grew up in Waha, Idaho (30 miles south of Lewiston) Nice to meet you!

Thank you all again for your good thoughts and advice. I truly hope we're on the uphill climb. I have to go to work tomorrow, and that means leaving them alone for a few hours. I'll pray they'll all be alright.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Hi, welcome to TGS! Wow, lots of drama at your house! I see you've already gotten the experienced advice. If she's still not drinking try giving her some Gatorade. They love it and it does have some electrolite in it.


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## DiamondGems (Jan 29, 2009)

She drank over a gallon and a half last night! :dance: I am so relieved. She looks and is acting almost like her usual loving self today. I will continue with the Pen, and all of the extras to keep building her up. I've never been so happy to refill a water bucket!  I can breathe easy going to work today, and pray that my other 2 does have uneventful deliveries when their time comes.
Thanks again for all of the help.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Thats awesome news! :dance: :hug:


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Congratulations. :stars: I am so glad that she is back t herself. or almost. It sounds like you did a great job. 

OH an by the way. I really believe those are the cutest baby Nubians I have ever seen. I just love those spots.

I did have to give Oxytocin and Excenel when Hope delivered a mummified baby last year and because she stepped on her placenta and broke it off, so the weight was not there to help the placenta come out. The vet said to give her the Oxy twice a day along with the Excenel. 

If she is drinking like that finally I would still offer her Molasses water for her strength to make sure it is up plus the more she drinks the more milk she will make.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

wonderful wonderful news :leap:


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

How is she doing now?


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

Welcome from AL :wave: 

Well I don't really have anything to add to the advice that has already been given... but I just wanted to drop in and say "Hello!" and tell you how ADORABLE those kids are!


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## DiamondGems (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks for asking how she is. They are all doing perfectly! :stars: I couldn't be happier as to their outcome. She is 100% back to normal, and has been for quite a few days (sorry, I had to work the past 5 days 14 hour shifts, so I wasn't around on the computer at all) Her milk production is great as well, although I'm not milking her much. Thank you all for your wonderful support and advice!

I did have another disaster that has consumed what time I did have home from work. One of my older does (her 4th freshening) had triplets, I had checked on her at 9 pm, she wasn't doing anything, head in the manger, no discharge, nothing to be concerned with, when I went back at 10:30, there were 3 lifeless babies spread around her pen, not a one had been licked at all. Luckily they did all have heartbeats, and I was able to get them all back, but it took me a good 10 hours to get them so they had strength to hold their heads up. I had colostrum in the fridge from my other girls, and was able to get a teeny bit from their mom. She started to lick on 2 of them after they were holding their heads up, but she still wasn't acting like a good mother. I had to go to work (even though I hadn't gotten a moment's sleep), so I sent them up to my wonderful neighbors who took great care of them throughout the day. 2 of them were up and going by the time I got home, and have continued to thrive. The doe has little to no milk, but she does let these 2 nurse occasionally, but surely not nearly enough like they need. I don't mind supplementing, as I have my 2 other does with plenty of milk. They were all getting bottles 7 times a day, and are now getting supplements 4 times a day, plus nursing what they can from their mom.

The last little one (he weighed almost 2 pounds less than his brothers at birth, truly a runt) spent his first 3 days of life in the house with me. By the end of day 2, he was able to stand with just a little assistance. I was worried he may have aspirated, even though I was using a tiny slow flow nipple on him, he was congested sounding always. He was an absolute love though and had won the hearts of my whole family, the girls were making him diapers out of paper towels, He had stayed in the house with my husband and girls caring for him while I was at work, and me taking over for the night shifts. It warmed up to almost 50 yesterday, so I put his sweater on him, and took him back to his brothers for an hour or so. They loved "playing" and snuggling with him, and he seemed really happy to be with them. He wasn't taking as much from the bottle as he had been the day before, and his tummy seemed tight most of the time, he was also coughing a little more as the day went by. By last night he was so weak, and not taking in much from his feeds at all. I continued with the NutriDrench to help give him an extra boost, but by 11 last night he was cold inside his little mouth, despite being in the warm house in my lap. I lost him around 1.  I know that I did a lot for him, and maybe there was something more wrong with him. I just hate losing babies. 

We decided the night she kidded that this doe is getting retired from breeding. She can gladly spend the rest of her years here, but she will never be out with a buck again, it's not fair to her, or the babies. She has never been able to provide milk for her babies, except for a tiny bit, and even then it's for a very short amount of time (a week or two at the longest) I don't know what happened to her udder to make it so unproductive, and the only reason I have let her get bred for the past 2 years was hoping that she would start producing. She always throws such beautiful babies, and up until this year has cared well for them, despite her lack of milk.

Only one doe left to kid, a second freshener who had no problem with her twins last year. I'll cross my fingers that this year will be just as uncomplicated. ray: She's due within the next week, so at least my crazy month of kidding is almost over.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I am so sorry that you lost the little one, but I am glad that that others are doing well. It sounds like a good plan to retire the mom.

Praying that the next kidding goes textbook for you.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

good news on the first mom and kids.

Wow to loose him after all that, how heart breaking :tears: :hug:


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