# Confused New Goat Owner - Feeding



## kinglerch (Dec 8, 2019)

We just got a young wether a week ago, and we put out straw on the barn floor, hay/dried grass clippings, minerals, baking soda (I am now learning this is bad?), 1/4-1/2 cup of grain max per day, and we let him graze in the pasture. He eats both the hay and the parts of the straw.

When he is in the pasture, he eats the entire time. Lots of pine bark and needles and branches, and random weeds. I think this is the first time he has been able to forage. He seems fine, but at the end of the day, his left side is "bloaty"...meaning it is out a bit and tight and drum sounding, like a bloat would be only smaller. In the morning it is not so tight, so I assume everything processed.

- Am I overfeeding by letting him in the pasture so long?

- I was thinking the baking soda would prevent a full-on bloat, but now I am reading it is bad for wethers?

- I was also reading that ammonium chloride is a good preventative measure for wethers, but I don't know how much or how often to give it?

- We have several water pails out, including one with Apple Cider Vinegar added, and although they are drinking, it seems very little...like a sip here and there. Not sure exactly how much but it's less than I was imagining. They know it's there, so I guess they are not so thirsty?

Thank you for the assistance!


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## HungryFox (Feb 6, 2020)

Baking soda does not treat or prevent bloat. It aids in a too acidic rumen.
Typically, goats fed so much browse free choice will make their own sodium bicarbonate by chewing. It is grain feeds that may contribute to a too acidic rumen but as long as this is a small supplement food he should be just fine. Up to half a cup per day sounds very safe mixed with all that browse.

The "browse bloat" is good and healthy.
Real emergency bloat will display an animal in distress. Stretching, crying, laying, grunting, etc. Browse belly will actually have some weird play doh like give to it, emergency bloat will be a solid balloon and will need immediate treatment.

I am going to begin using ammonium chloride myself, because I just don't trust my analysis of a balanced calcium to phosphorus ratio in our feed (and well water is very hard calcium.) I have heard BOTH ways that stones and blockages can result from too much calcium OR phosphorus. I don't care about the semantics too much, cause both ways resulted in a poor boy unable to pee and possible death.
The ammonium chloride container I have has 0 info on use I'm afraid. I am going to use the recommended treatment a particular Facebook group posts that I am not sure I can share here. I am told that research indicates ammonium chloride is effective if given for one week out of the month in a higher dosage than what would be consumed in an ammonium chloride feed throughout the regular diet.

As with many things goat, you will find variances between opinions, sources, and herds. Goats have not received adequate research for sure, which leaves us herders and small guys doing some investigative work and watching cause and effect on small scale to find conclusions.

Apple cider vinegar is another one of those things.
My current info leads me to conclude that it is likely not harmful and ACV with the mother has many health benefits in humans but we are talking different species here so grain of salt that. It appears to make the water more palatable and may ward off algae growth longer than fresh buckets (here in New England, algae in our buckets can grow in under 2 days even with fresh water used.) However, it is expensive in the grand scheme if you have a bigger herd and so many water buckets as I do needing constant refreshing.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

No baking soda free choice, only offer if you think the goat needs it to help with tummy issues. Goats produce their own bicarbonate, but if they have baking soda they begin to produce less and less of their own. Then, if they end up bloating, their bodies will not resolve as quickly and baking soda will already be rendered useless. It also de-acidifies urine, which can be quite dangerous for male goats, as urine must stay slightly acidic to prevent urinary calculi. Baking soda can also disrupt the absorption of certain minerals, causing deficiencies.

Now you said you got a young wether a week ago, do you have other goats? Goats are very social and cannot he kept alone!

Do you happen to have hard well water?

It is all about balancing the calcium to phosphorus ratio with boys. If you have hard well water, apple cider vinegar is good to add to balance it. If you don’t have hard water, I wouldn’t necessarily feel the need add ACV because it is still a source of phosphorus.

You need some sources of calcium and phosphorus together. Grain and grass hay are phosphorus, and calcium comes from hard water usually, alfalfa, and my favorite for wethers is to offer kelp.

What mineral do you give? Some minerals already have ammonium chloride, and if you’re mineral AND your grain have ammonium chloride you probably don’t need to add extra.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The goat probably just has a good working rumen.


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## kinglerch (Dec 8, 2019)

I also havr a 4yr old doe and she is more predictable, maybe? No issues and mushy rumen.

I will remove the baking soda. My water is well water but only slightly hard. Water softener is set to 30 grains. We have been leaving a bucket of plain and a bucket of ACV water to see if they like either.

Can I let my young wether graze/browse endlessly, or should I limit it somewhat? Can too much browse cause problems?

My grain does not have AC but I was going to add a sprinkle as a preventative. He will go for the minerals which have AC but never sure if he gets enough.

At the end of the day the rumen is "full" but I guess I will have to learn the difference between full and bloated.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Yes let him browse. When they are younger their rumens are more prominent because they grow before the rest of their bodies do lol.

He is not bloated if he is acting normally, just remember that. As long as he isn’t showing signs of pain or distress and discomfort, a big rumen is great!!


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## HungryFox (Feb 6, 2020)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Do you happen to have hard well water?
> 
> It is all about balancing the calcium to phosphorus ratio with boys. If you have hard well water, apple cider vinegar is good to add to balance it. If you don't have hard water, I wouldn't necessarily feel the need add ACV because it is still a source of phosphorus.


Might you have a follow up link for this?
It would be too fantastic if that would help my water situation.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

HungryFox said:


> Might you have a follow up link for this?
> It would be too fantastic if that would help my water situation.


For which?

If you really want to help your water situation, get a horse hydrator filter from tractor supply


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## HungryFox (Feb 6, 2020)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> For which?
> 
> If you really want to help your water situation, get a horse hydrator filter from tractor supply


Huh...quote disappeared.
The ability to soften the water with ACV.
Horse hydrator states it does not remove hard minerals, from one sale site I looked at. Does not appear that any filter will do so, one must use expensive softeners that are also not good for goats through my (minimal) research.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

For mineral problems, the horse hydrator will help.

For urinary problems, if the diet permits, ACV will soften water. I don't have any links for information, it's just an old farmer's knowledge thing but maybe @happybleats has info on it.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I do want to caution the OP on using grass clippings. These are a no - go for goats. The clippings easily ferment and may cause problems.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

goatblessings said:


> I do want to caution the OP on using grass clippings. These are a no - go for goats. The clippings easily ferment and may cause problems.


I didn't see grass clipping I thought it said grass hay


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## kinglerch (Dec 8, 2019)

We do have hay as well as grass clippings that have been left to dry out on a garage floor for a week. Are dry grass clippings also bad?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

kinglerch said:


> We do have hay as well as grass clippings that have been left to dry out on a garage floor for a week. Are dry grass clippings also bad?


Yes.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Grass clippings are only bad if short right? Very long cut grass would basically just be hay right?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

No, hay is cured.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Right. Sorry about that.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

MellonFriend said:


> Right. Sorry about that.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good advice by all.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Hay is cut, lays in the field for a couple days, and baled. 
Grass clippings are only bad if they are fed green, in excess, or your neighbors are feeding them to your foundered pony. 

With the diet described I would add a couple cups of alfalfa pellets unless there's a mix of deciduous trees in the pasture as well. 

Hard water is not just calcium, how are you all taking care of the magnesium?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

goathiker said:


> Hay is cut, lays in the field for a couple days, and baled.
> Grass clippings are only bad if they are fed green, in excess, or your neighbors are feeding them to your foundered pony.
> 
> With the diet described I would add a couple cups of alfalfa pellets unless there's a mix of deciduous trees in the pasture as well.
> ...


Hay is cut, lays in the field a couple days, is bales, AND should cure for about 3 MONTHS before being fed.

Of course grass clippings here and there won't cause harm, but it is no replacement or addition to hay.

As for the magnesium, some aspects of hard water or more harmful than others, we focus on what we see causing visible and immediate issues and we help only as much as we can help, magnesium is not something I have crazy levels of in mine so I cannot speak on its behalf but I try and focus on the main minerals and heavy metals that I see causing problems the most frequently.

If you'd like to educate all of us on magnesium that would be lovely!


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## kinglerch (Dec 8, 2019)

I was having trouble getting my goats to really drink. My water is new for them and they would sip, but not very much was gone. I tried adding ACV and still not much changed.

Then I read on here about someone making a sort of hot tea with molasses and ACV, and they drank this so fast like there was a hole in the bucket.

I am hoping they take to my water eventually, and I am not sure if it was the water temperature or the molasses that made them drink so much, but thanks to this forum for such tribal knowledge.


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## Frank Alvarez (Dec 16, 2019)

How are grass clippings, fed green, any different than allowing goats to graze/browse on pasture grass of the same variety as the grass clippings?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Frank Alvarez said:


> How are grass clippings, fed green, any different than allowing goats to graze/browse on pasture grass of the same variety as the grass clippings?


First off, once grass is mowed, a chemical
change begins and it starts to ferment. It can ferment within hours... once fermented it can can cause serious rumen issues. Either you fully dry it or you don't dry it at all. It is, however, extremely difficult to ensure when it is fully dried as opposed to fermented. They ferment in the rumen after being fed to the goat as well.

Now, the difference between grass clippings and pasture:

A little bit here and there is not going to hurt, if you feed a handful of grass clippings it's not going to do much harm or any at all.

Goats produce bicarbonate as they chew which keeps them from becoming bloated - their bodies can keep up with the amount of chewing when pulling out grass from a pasture in small bite-sized pieces. However, grass clippings won't require as much "work" and the goat will consume a lot of them in large mouthfuls and without having to work for it to chew and digest. When the grass clippings are eaten without proper saliva and chewing, it will increase lactic acid in the rumen and kill the good fiber-digesting bacteria, causing some serious digestive issues.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Goats produce bicarbonate as they chew which keeps them from becoming bloated - their bodies can keep up with the amount of chewing when pulling out grass from a pasture in small bite-sized pieces. However, grass clippings won't require as much "work" and the goat will consume a lot of them in large mouthfuls and without having to work for it to chew and digest. When the grass clippings are eaten without proper saliva and chewing, it will increase lactic acid in the rumen and kill the good fiber-digesting bacteria, causing some serious digestive issues.


Ahh never underestimate the power of saliva in the digestion process.

Great explanation!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I just never do it. Too many problems could arise - I'm not tedding and drying. And even if you can get away with a little of it, you will still need forage/pasture/hay.


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## kinglerch (Dec 8, 2019)

I have read that the primary source of UC in male goats is phosphorus, and that to be safe the calcium to phosphorus ratio should be 2-2.5 to 1. Some sources say it should be as high as 5 calcium to 1 phosphorus, but I couldn't find any goat products that have the ratio that high.

Many people on here like the Manna Pro goat minerals, that keeps the ratio of calcium to phosphorus at 2-2.4 to 1:










Many people agree to limit grain since it is a source for phosphorus, however the calcium to phosphorus ratio on Purina Goat Chow is showing as 1.3-2.2x (approx 2x?):

https://www.purinamills.com/2.purin...ts/Purina-Goat-Chow-Sell-Sheet_1.pdf?ext=.pdf

What makes the Manna Pro minerals ok to give free choice at 2-2.4x and the Purina Goat Chow not ok at 1.3-2.2x? Also, for males should we be increasing the calcium to be sure the ratio is even higher?


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Have to not like Manna Pro - too much salt . Sweet Lix Meat Maker, Cargill Onyx are better choices. Purina Goat Chow has too much sweet stuff that can lead to acidosis. I go for a pelleted feed without added Molasses and not much corn. I would start with a 2:1 and go from there.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:


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## kinglerch (Dec 8, 2019)

goatblessings said:


> Have to not like Manna Pro - too much salt . Sweet Lix Meat Maker, Cargill Onyx are better choices.


It seems these all have almost the same amount of salt? Or did I miss something?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Manna pro is packed with mostly salt and does not have much in the way of good minerals goats need, it is less there.


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## kinglerch (Dec 8, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> Manna pro is packed with mostly salt and does not have much in the way of good minerals goats need, it is less there.


I am only going by the Manna Pro label that says max salt is 14.4%, Sweet Lix Meat Maker shows max salt of 18%, and Cargill Onyx shows max 15.5%. So the Manna Pro should have the least amount of salt, or there is something I am missing.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

For what it is, it has more salt than good minerals for goats. 

With the other minerals, it has more of the good stuff, plus the salt.


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## kinglerch (Dec 8, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> For what it is, it has more salt than good minerals for goats.
> 
> With the other minerals, it has more of the good stuff, plus the salt.


Yes, I can see that. Manna Pro has more calcium but less copper and selenium...so for a given amount if minerals, there will be more salt. I will certainly check out these other options from Sweet Lix and Cargill, thought they don't seem drastically different from one another. I think the biggest difference is once the goat gets the required minerals from the Manna, they will have gotten more salt in the process. Thanks for the clarification


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Manna Pro’s salt level has nothing to do with it. It is a low salt mineral, most minerals have much much larger amounts of salt. That being said, Manna Pro is low in certain minerals, especially selenium and iodine. Less copper and zinc problems with it, it seems to be okay there as long as you don’t have antagonists in the rest of the diet, but the minerals themselves in the ingredients are super high quality. So the minerals are great there just aren’t enough of them. But if you are okay with supplementing, I personally feel that Manna Pro is an okay option, especially for wethers


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

And I also want to point out that the ratios of minerals in Manna Pro, excluding the selenium and iodine, are really not that bad. MP has more copper than Purina Wind and Rain, has a 4:1 zinc to copper ratio which I’ve noticed tends to had a little better than 3:1 like Purina if antagonists are present. Purina is actually pretty low in copper and zinc. Not to mention and its ingredients being terribly non-diverse, there are barely any minerals in it either. And I am using this name brand because I know it’s what people usually recommend instead of MP. Nothing to say on Sweetlix as I believe it’s a wonderful mineral. Cargill’s Onyx too has a pretty bland ingredients list but does have more of them in it, and I’ve heard good things. It’s all relative and it all depends on what you supplement and what the rest of the diet is.

If you supplement with selenium and iodine, and don’t have antagonists, Manna Pro is actually, wholeheartedly, a lovely mineral.


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## kinglerch (Dec 8, 2019)

The other issue that needs to be accounted for is what the goats will eat. There are some other great options out there that some people have trouble getting their goats to touch. MP may have some room for improvement, but I am thankful at least that my kids dig into it.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

kinglerch said:


> The other issue that needs to be accounted for is what the goats will eat. There are some other great options out there that some people have trouble getting their goats to touch. MP may have some room for improvement, but I am thankful at least that my kids dig into it.


Absolutely, if they don't want to eat it, they won't get any minerals at all!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:


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## Dodie Bower (Jun 17, 2020)

What are your thoughts on Nutrena feed and minerals?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Dodie Bower said:


> What are your thoughts on Nutrena feed and minerals?


I know some people like Nutrena feed on the forum - I am not familiar with their minerals, didn't know they had one?


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