# Help! My Pregnant Goat is CL +



## Bekkidotes (Apr 19, 2017)

We have a female rescue goat, Beyonce, who has been in isolation with her other doe "buddy," Lady, who came with her. Thank goodness Lady tested negative for CL, Johne's, and CAE. Beyonce tested negative Johne's and CAE, but is CL+. 

We are aware we will need to isolate and put Beyonce down now, but I believe she is roughly 3-4 months along (we cannot know when exactly she was bred because she is a rescue and came to us pregnant). Our vet mentioned that CL might be spread through colostrum, but he didn't seem sure and I don't know if anyone in the community could help me answer that question more definitively. 

My significant other is very torn up about losing Beyonce's unborn kids as well as Beyonce, and he asked me if it's possible to wait to isolate Beyonce from Lasy now, but wait to put her down until she kids. I honestly don't know if this is possible.

Is CL spread through colostrum?

Is it feasible to isolate Beyonce and wait until she kids to put her down?

Our goats are pets and not production animals, and this will be the first goat we have to put down, so we are trying to get as much information as we can about whether we could possibly save her kids or if we have to put her down while pregnant. I'm having the vet come Tuesday and do a blood test to see how far along she is in her pregnancy (she's definitely getting huge lately but her udder hasn't dropped), so I'm hoping I'll have that information in about a week.

Like my mom always says, there's a lot of life and death on a homestead. :sigh:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The blood test won't tell you how far along. Only if she is pregnant. You can pull the kids as soon as they are born. Have you done a second test to confirm the CL? Does she have any abscesses?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Is there any chance she had a CL vaccine? If she had one, that will show a low positive.

Was the reading high, low or very low?

Does she have an abscess or coughing right now?
If not, I wouldn't worry about it at all, it is "Not" transferred through colostrum.
It is the goo that comes out of the abscesses and through internal abscesses by coughing, that spreads it. 

If she does not have an abscess or coughing, you should be OK. 

Do know, there are some breeders on here who do have CL positive goats. Maybe they will chime in soon.


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## Bekkidotes (Apr 19, 2017)

Thanks a lot for the reply, Karen!

No abscesses or any symptoms of feeling poorly at all, she looks and acts very healthy. That's good to know that the blood tests won't tell me how far along she is, I'll forgo that test then since I'm sure she's pregnant. She's only had the one CL test; Thanks a lot for that information, I'll have the vet do another when he comes on Tuesday.

I'm afraid that if she kids at 3am or sometime I'm not there the kids will drink her colostrum and get CL. If I find kids nursing her one morning, will I have to put the kids down?



ksalvagno said:


> The blood test won't tell you how far along. Only if she is pregnant. You can pull the kids as soon as they are born. Have you done a second test to confirm the CL? Does she have any abscesses?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

You can tape her teats. That's what I did with my CAE positive does this year.


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## Bekkidotes (Apr 19, 2017)

I'm not sure about the reading as the vet is now out to lunch, but I'm waiting for him to call me back and I would like him to get me a hard copy of her results so I have it on hand. I'll update this thread the minute I get that information. She doesn't cough except occasionally when she eats her grain too quickly. That's really good to know about the colostrum!! I'm much less worried about her kids knowing that.

ETA I have no prior medical history on her since she came from auction and was a rescue. So unfortunately I don't know if she ever had a CL vax.



toth boer goats said:


> Is there any chance she had a CL vaccine? If she had one, that will show a low positive.
> 
> Was the reading high, low or very low?
> 
> ...


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

If she gets an abscess in her udder, the CL will spread through the colostrum/milk after it bursts.


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## Bekkidotes (Apr 19, 2017)

Thanks, Suzanne! Am I correct in thinking that even though her udder looks and feels abscess-free, she could still have an internal abscess in her udder that can contaminate her milk?



Suzanne_Tyler said:


> If she gets an abscess in her udder, the CL will spread through the colostrum/milk after it bursts.


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## Bekkidotes (Apr 19, 2017)

Also, that's a great idea!



Suzanne_Tyler said:


> You can tape her teats. That's what I did with my CAE positive does this year.


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## Bekkidotes (Apr 19, 2017)

Thanks a ton for all the information, you guys! It's all been really really helpful and I wonder if you would let me run my new plan by you for feedback.

My new plan going forward is:

1.) Isolate Beyonce in a new pen with a shelter away from the other goats (already done) and put a wether companion in with Lady, who is healthy and tested negative for CL/CAE/Johne's but is lonely without Beyonce (already done).

2.) Have vet do another CL test Tuesday (earliest day he can come) and get numerical results from her first CL test.

3a.) If both tests suggest that she has had a vaccination instead of being infected, and she has no symptoms, assume that she has had a CL vaccination and is not infected. Put her back with the herd.

3b.) If tests suggest she is infected with CL, tape her teats, keep her in isolation until she kids, raise the kids as bottle babies.

If she is CL positive, then I am no longer sure what to do with her after she kids. The vet said she HAS to be put down but I only want to do that if necessary. * Do I have to put a CL+ goat down?* If the only other option is to keep her in isolation for the rest of her life, I will do it in a heartbeat because I think solitary confinement for life isn't the right kind of life for a goat. :|


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That choice is up to you. There are many herds with CL. Mainly meat goat herds don't care about the CL since many goats are terminal anyway. Dairy goat people tend not to like it since they are usually milking.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

You could keep her if she is CL+, but you would need to be really careful about tracking it back to your main herd. CL is a hateful disease. Unfortunately, anytime an animal comes from a livestock auction, they are exposed to every disease that has been there. 

I'm so sorry that you may have to make some tough choices soon. Hopefully, she is just reacting to the vaccine.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The CL test just says she's been exposed to a Causious bacteria. It can't tell you if it is Causious Lymphydenitis or a harmless type. 
The test is notoriously inaccurate.


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## Bekkidotes (Apr 19, 2017)

Goats Rock said:


> I'm so sorry that you may have to make some tough choices soon. Hopefully, she is just reacting to the vaccine.


Thanks Goats Rock, I really hope so, too.  It's likely I'll wait for her to kid and then put her down if she truly has CL, because you're right about it being an awful disease, but I'm also hoping it's just from a vaccination or maybe a different strain of Causious. We've had this goat for about a month and she has had no abscesses or coughs, so I have my fingers crossed but I'm ready to do what I have to do. I really hope that vet calls me back soon.



goathiker said:


> The CL test just says she's been exposed to a Causious bacteria. It can't tell you if it is Causious Lymphydenitis or a harmless type.
> The test is notoriously inaccurate.


Thanks a lot, that's really helpful!! I'll talk that over with the vet, because I would HATE to kill a perfectly healthy goat just because she had a vaccination in her past or was exposed to a different strain of Causious. The vet ended up calling my boyfriend with the results instead of me yesterday and didn't give him a lot of information, so I'm still trying to get a hold of him now. :?


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

If she has abcesses in her lungs and she is sharing food and water with the other goat, you have risked her being infected as well.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All have really good advice.


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

I don't know a lot about CL except that before I even knew about it - years back - I bought a ram that developed a swelling on his neck. A vet showed us how to remove it and to be very careful about the pus in it. A year or so later he developed a few more and we removed them. He lived till he was about 8 and then we put him down as he got very weak and sickly. Vet said they were internal. Never had it happen to any of the other sheep that were with him so I presume it is not as contagious as we think - if we don't allow drainage or pus to get on any other animal. 
I had all our sheep and goats tested a few years ago - all negative but the vet also told me that the test is really not very accurate. It is nasty. 
I don't think I would put down a healthy animal that doesn't have any abcesses showing on her, especially when you don't know her history.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't think that CL is the automatic death sentence your vet seems to recommend. There are factors going into making this decision that need to be evaluated. Perhaps she does need put down, that has more to do with you and your farm goals than it does with whether or not she has this particular disease. IF she has it, it does not seem like a particularly virulent case. If she had one abscess after another popping out, or if she were unthrifty, indicating repeated internal abscesses, that would be a factor to include.

But your vet seems on the verge of acting like this is Hoof and Mouth Disease. OK, that is an exaggeration, and at least he knows what CL is and does (not all vets do, I've found) But you get my point.

She looks and acts healthy. You rescue goats. Any of your rescues can show up with a disease from the past at any time. By definition you already run a high risk operation.

And you said yourself, their main job in your life is as pets.

I say give a healthy seeming girl a chance at life as your pet, not merely decide if she can still be an incubator.

My advice to someone running a different operation, with different goals, and with different methods of obtaining goats, would be different.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

^^^ very well said! Even if she is positive and you don't want to deal with it there are tons of other people who do not view it as your vet does. Even if you can not find someone to take her and give her a life the meat is still good. I don't know I personally just have a issue with a animals life being wasted. I know not everyone agrees with me and I'm not judging but I really hate when it happens


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## ForeverBoerd (May 3, 2017)

We have had a few goats with CL and have not put them down. We have a quarantine pen far away from other pens so there aren't any shared fences or water sources. As soon as we notice any lump or bump we move them there and keep an eye on it. In our experience the hair begins to fall off the abscess when it is about to open, at which time we take them to the concrete driveway (also away from healthy goat pens), lance the abscess, clean it with water, and spray it with iodine and fly spray. Once that's done we move them back to the quarantine until the wound it completely sealed up at which point we move them back in with the others. This has been a effective method for us, and we've only put down goats who seemed to get one abscess after another.

I'll also make a note that internal CL abscesses are much more common in sheep than goats and goats more commonly get them externally, though internal abscesses should not be completely ruled out.
Another note, if the abscess does break open be sure to disinfect your shoes, any collars or leashes, or anything else that might have come into contact with the pus so you don't track it into pens of healthy goats. Good luck!


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## Bekkidotes (Apr 19, 2017)

Thanks so much for all the advice, guys! It was really helpful to get all the tips on managing cl+ goats and it really helped us make the decision to keep Beyonce and let her be with her best friend as long as she stays asymptomatic. I've since posted an update and a big thank you about this case (which I will try to link)!

ETA:
http://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/update-on-cl-pregnant-doe.193357/

Sent from my LG-K371 using Goat Forum mobile app


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

There will always be the risk of internal abscesses but for the external ones, they are manageable. Its not fun and if the animal goes chronic, you can spend more time then not cleaning em. But when you notice a abscess start to form, keep a close eye on it. When it starts to bald, lance it, flush out all the pus, clean it (iodine) pack the empty hole with a iodine soaked paper towel. Change that once or twice a day for a week or so. Do this all on a tarp, surgical gloves, clothes that can be washed. Shoes that you dont use for anything else but this purpose. Anything that pus touches is contaminated. You can also look into the yearly vaccination. Might help reduce the number of abscesses she will grow.


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## Bekkidotes (Apr 19, 2017)

TDG-Farms said:


> There will always be the risk of internal abscesses but for the external ones, they are manageable. Its not fun and if the animal goes chronic, you can spend more time then not cleaning em. But when you notice a abscess start to form, keep a close eye on it. When it starts to bald, lance it, flush out all the pus, clean it (iodine) pack the empty hole with a iodine soaked paper towel. Change that once or twice a day for a week or so. Do this all on a tarp, surgical gloves, clothes that can be washed. Shoes that you dont use for anything else but this purpose. Anything that pus touches is contaminated. You can also look into the yearly vaccination. Might help reduce the number of abscesses she will grow.


Thanks a ton, that's all really good advice.


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