# Urgent help needed. Buck is acting drunk, unsteady



## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

I don't know any other way to describe the way my 2 year old buck is acting but like a drunk person. I just went out to feed everybody and he was staggering about and would get on his front knees and walk around on them. I tossed some hay in and he started eating it immediately, but what is the matter with him? He and the other buck get unlimited alfalfa/grass mix hay and some alfalfa/timothy pellets, no grain. Should I give him cd antitoxin? What could this be?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I think you need to start treating for polio and listeriosis immediately. High doses of Penicillin and Fortified B Complex or Thiamine every 6 hours. This link outlines treatment:
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Two things come to mind:

1) listeriosis. Take his temp asap and give b complex or thiamine. If he has a fever banamine will reduce the temp. Antibiotics are needed as well, aggressive treatment is key! 

2) head trauma from a fight. Any blood or wounds? In that case I'd probably give banamine to reduce swelling (unless you suspect internal bleeding), and b complex.

In any case start by taking his temp, check his lids and other basics. Is he pooping? Any rumen noises? Probios and electrolytes will help him during treatment.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree...treat for Listeriosis and Polio...per the link Salty posted


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

I just got back from the barn. Polio/listeriosis crossed my mind as well, so I did give him a dose of thiamine. The weird thing is, when I went out just now he was acting normal again and eating hay with gusto. That doesn't sound like listeriosis to me, so I held off on starting Pen G. If he acts off at all again I will definitely start him on it, but I hate giving Pen G, and I am all by myself this weekend, so it is very difficult to wrangle a huge buck for the pen injection with no assistance. 

He just looked so weird before and so normal now. Why? I'm going to keep giving him thiamine, just in case, but he looked back to normal before I even gave the first dose.

Edit: No head trauma that I can see. Am I an idiot for not starting Pen G right away? He doesn't look sick anymore whatsoever.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Never mind. He is acting weird again and I'm starting him on Pen G.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Polio responds to treatment quickly while listeriosis takes time..so if he is responding to thiamine...then I would assume its polio....

Its is a safety net treating for both ... so keep a close watch just in case...


EDIT: Yep...start pen g...


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Definitely do both right away. My doe had listeriosis and symptoms got worse hourly. 1cc per 20# of pen g every 6 hours. Same with thiamine I believe. I used fortified vitamin b complex and that was the dose I used.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Okay, I think I found the answer. He is now not putting weight on his right hind leg and there is a painful, swollen bump at the hock. I think the leg injury is why he has been staggering and walking on his knees. I'm going to keep him on the course of treatment I started, just in case he was injured afterwards and it is not the root cause. Off to give him some banamine.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The banamine will help with brain swelling too. They usually don't act drunk with a leg injury.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Yes, that is true. I am definitely continuing the Pen G and thiamine. It is so weird. I am checking on him often and sometimes he acts strangely and sometimes he seems just fine and alert. He is eating well.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

the on and off again symptoms can also be as the meds wear off he gets worse..be sure to follow the dose per weight on the tennessee meat goat sight...Banamine should also be given for at least three days then assess from there.

what stength is your thiamine?


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

I have a little bit left of 500 mg/ml and an unopened bottle of 200 mg/ml.

I know it is difficult to overdose on thiamine. Is there any benefit to treating him more often than every 6 hours?

Weight tape puts him right around 180 lbs. He is very dairy and slight (consistent with his lines) and loses condition easily.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

All B's are hard to over dose but it best to give the amount needed...every 6 hours is best...
500mg is 1 cc per 100# 
200mg is 2 1/4 cc per 100#


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Thank you Happybleats. That is the dosage I've been giving.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

How is he doing? The lump on his hock may have been an injury from the stumbling and discoordination.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

He looks great. He's acting totally normally right now. Just about time for his next round of shots.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Sounds like polio if he's responding so fast. Took 19 days with my doe to get her back on her feet walking by herself (listeriosis)


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## AncientBlue (Dec 21, 2014)

Hey, I'm trying to learn from what is happening with others so I have a little more knowledge when things happen with my goats and I have a few questions:

1. Are ProPen G and Thiamine SQ or IM injections?
2. When I try to pull up Banamine on Jeffer's Pet I get a holistic horse care drops, therefore I don't think I'm looking at the right stuff. Would you post a link to what Banamine is please?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

This is the Banamine, it is Rx only so you need a vet prescription: http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=78db03f7-1971-449e-b815-5f7182e048ea


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Are ProPen G and Thiamine SQ or IM injections?


Pen and thiamine are SUb Q...the only meds you need to IM is hormones : )


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

This has just been the strangest experience. Bucky is not acting like he has polio anymore. He is alert and eating. He got 5 days of pencillin, and got thiamine up until yesterday when I ran out. I'm getting some more this afternoon, but gave him a lot of b-complex plus in the interim. I also gave him 4 days of banamine when it first happened, but now I am giving him an aspirin. 

The thing is, I'm not even sure he needs thiamine. The issue seems to be with his back legs and I suspect it was all along, and the staggering and knees walking that resulted from it falsely made me think polio. 

It seemed at first like it was only one of his back legs, but now every time he stands up he seems stiff on both of them. He will pick one up and hold it and then switch and pick up the other. I have examined his legs and feet and find no noticeable injury, swelling, or pain. It did seem the first one was painful at the hock the first few days, but not now. They seem stiff, but when I check them they have the full range of motion. 

Any ideas? At one point I freaked out and worried he was getting tetanus, even gave him antitoxin, but it doesn't fit. It is only the back legs. He holds them out behind him like the hocks are painful or stiff. 

We don't have meningeal worm here. no white tail deer, only mule deer. 

:shrug:


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

No chance what so ever of meningeal? No goat has ever had it where you live? Has he been chewing at the fur in his back legs or along the spine? 

I can't imagine what it could be other than meningeal except an injury - perhaps you saw improvement due to the banamine the first few days?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree with Salty...the only other thing I can come up with is White Muscle disease....do you have bO Se?


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

There are no white tail deer here, and it is my understanding that mule deer do not carry meningeal worm. I have never heard of it happening here, and I looked into it a bit when I first got into goats. He can walk ok still, and does get up. His back legs aren't dragging or anything. 

I do BoSe. He was actually last BoSe'd about 1 month ago, along with being wormed with Valbazen and given copper. He measures with weight tape at 180# and I gave him 4.5 cc BoSe according to my records.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Also, I should mention that Bucky does not have access to pasture or any wet areas right now, just inside the barn and a fenced gravel area that is dry. Slugs or snails that would carry meningeal worm are not at all likely, and temps have been cold still on and off. 

I hate not knowing what is wrong. I got the Pen G and thiamine, but I think I am going to keep him on the B Complex Plus.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Has he been tested for CAE? 

Could he have been playing and fell on his back?


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

He has been tested for CAE very recently and was negative. He could very easily have been injured by the other buck he is housed with, who outweighs him by 10# or so.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Does anyone know how soon I could start him on banamine again without doing damage? It has been a few days...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Does he act something like my big Saanen?

http://www.thegoatspot.net/video/jeter-at-13-32.html


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Does he act something like my big Saanen?
> 
> http://www.thegoatspot.net/video/jeter-at-13-32.html


Maybe? He suddenly holds his back legs behind him like that, and he will also lift one, as if favoring it, but then a a bit do the same with the other. He also has a few times backed his rear legs up onto a low rung of the fence to stretch and pee. So very strange.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

At that time Jeter had chronic White Muscle disease. He got a Bo.Se shot and 3/4 ths. of his normal amount of copper every 3 months to bring him out of it. It was a long process.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Thanks goat hiker, I'll look into it. I have been giving him BoSe about 3 times a year, but I know some goats need more than others.

How quick was the onset for your buck?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It was fairly sudden actually, like it just hit a critical point all at once.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

How did you diagnose it? I read something about being able to test blood levels.

This is making more sense to me than anything.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Blood levels will tell you how much selenium is in his system that day and can be a useful tool. In his case, he showed marked improvement for a while after his shot and I just had to figure out how to maintain him.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Thanks, I think I will try and get a blood test for him, just to assure myself that his levels aren't great and try your recommendation. I have noticed that he seems to need more copper etc than my other animals, but I have been terrified of toxicity after a strongly worded lecture (to a room of people, not just me) on the dangers of over applying copper and BoSe. Most of the goat breeders in the room scoffed, but she had been working on a strange case in the southeast where a very well-known breeder and judge had massive, rapid deaths in their herd due to copper toxicity, which also seemed to hit critical mass. It was a very interesting lecture, but I think it made me paranoid.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

So many factors come into play..high amounts of iron in water for example can compete with copper levels...Amos, my Saanen buck started having issues a few years ago...walking odd...saw his back legs weak on the pasterns, he walked funny, ... Took a few shots of BoSe to get him right...he now needs BoSe 3 times a year to maintain levels..I watch him close...
We had a lamb real bad..she bunny hopped ..took weeks to get her well...
You need to judge your case based on whats going on on your farm..dont let whats happening some where else scare you...learn from it, yes...


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Thank you Happybleats. I usually BoSe and copper bolus 3 times a year. For most of my animals that seems to be enough, but some seem to require more consistently. I will let you all know what the blood test says, assuming I can get one easily.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Wait wait wait - that thing you said about him backing up against the fence to pee - could he have some urinary calculi build up causing pain?? Is he peeing a full stream? The leg lifting is unusual but I could see it relating to groin or bladder pain. Perhaps he is partially blocked??


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

SalteyLove said:


> Wait wait wait - that thing you said about him backing up against the fence to pee - could he have some urinary calculi build up causing pain?? Is he peeing a full stream? The leg lifting is unusual but I could see it relating to groin or bladder pain. Perhaps he is partially blocked??


That is a good thought, but he has been peeing very regularly and does not look blocked or dehydrated.


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