# Scrotum shape and udder shape



## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

We have been raising and breeding goats for a number of years now. We have mostly Saanens and local Ecuadorian mutt goats crossed with Saanen.

We have noticed that bucks with split scrotums seem to make does with long, pendulous udders. Our purebred Saanen bucks both have no split whatsoever in their sacks and all their daughters have round udders, decent attachment and smaller teats.

Is this coincidence? Has anyone else noticed this? I have a very handsome Snubian buckling right now who has a slight split and I'm wondering if that will have any bearing on his future daughters' udders.

The photos aren't my goats, just for illustrative purposes.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Interesting.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

yes, split scrodums do cause udder problems, in the US splits are a major disqualification in shows


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

spidy1 said:


> yes, split scrodums do cause udder problems, in the US splits are a major disqualification in shows


Does the degree of the split correlate with the badness of the udder? We don't raise show goats so we're not looking for perfect conformation, but we also don't want teats that are so long and large that babies can't nurse from them.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

yes 100% I cant give you the exact, but yes a long split will make the udders much worse than a short split, 
mariarose can probably help, I would call more to help but I cant remember there names, (sorry guys memory loss is a pain)


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## FoxRidge (Aug 26, 2016)

This is very interesting! Will be following...


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

Here in Ecuador people hold many strange beliefs about how to select a good milk goat. One of the most common things we hear is that you should look for very long ears. Another we have heard is to look for the split scrotum on bucks and very long teats on does. When we got our first saanens our biggest concern was how they would adjust to the warm, sunny weather. Our neighbors told us we had made a mistake buying them because... their ears were so small!


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

(rofl) I guess they've never seen a LaMancha....


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

Just look at the udder (if you are buying an adult) and then go off of conformation


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

singinggoatgirl said:


> (rofl) I guess they've never seen a LaMancha....


purebred goats of any kind are almost non existent here. no shows, no breeders, no pedigrees. there is no tradition of raising goats for milk so also very little knowledge of how to do it well.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I have never before seen a scrotum like that. Is it bound to certain breeds?

If the Ecuadorian beliefe is that a goat with long teats milk better, of course the phenomenon will occur more in that country.

Here, the traditional "milk signs" are bells, big veins in front of the udder - and polledness! But most people, when buying a milk goat, ask for the year production of both mother and grandmothers, as well as, when available, the individual's.


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

Trollmor said:


> I have never before seen a scrotum like that. Is it bound to certain breeds?
> 
> If the Ecuadorian beliefe is that a goat with long teats milk better, of course the phenomenon will occur more in that country.
> 
> Here, the traditional "milk signs" are bells, big veins in front of the udder - and polledness! But most people, when buying a milk goat, ask for the year production of both mother and grandmothers, as well as, when available, the individual's.


interesting! I see youtube videos of goats in Brasil and various African countries and I see that long teats and split scrotums are common there, too.

purebred dogs have become very common here in the last 5-10 years, even in the countryside. So I can hope that maybe better goat genetics are on the way?


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

long ears do help with heat dispersion, thats all, a long eard goat will do much better in hot arid climates than a short eard goat, all Alpine breeds have short ears, I am not very familiar with why the LaMancha has such tiny ears I do know they where created in the US. here, the best milkers have round, well fitted, tight, high udders (they can be as big as a melon, but still tight to the doe, kind of like my LaMancha doe, she is by no means perfect, but a good visual, here she was producing 1 1/2 gallons a day)


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

adrienne said:


> interesting! I see youtube videos of goats in Brasil and various African countries and I see that long teats and split scrotums are common there, too.
> 
> purebred dogs have become very common here in the last 5-10 years, even in the countryside. So I can hope that maybe better goat genetics are on the way?


Yes, indeed very interesting! Here, maybe people traditionally were used to hand milking, and refused to buy a goat with unmanageable teats?


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## FoxRidge (Aug 26, 2016)

@spidy1 that is a lovely udder!!

@Trollmor I remember but ex's does, some of the Nubians had the long pendulous teats and they were like leather. In his mind they were excellent milking does. One of the does had a scar on her teat from when it got snagged on something out in the paddock  very sad. These were my first experiences with goats so I wasn't too freaked out. now had I see those does for the first time I would have scolded him and told him to just retire those does to being pasture buddies to live out their days or sell for meat.


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

spidy1 said:


> long ears do help with heat dispersion, thats all, a long eard goat will do much better in hot arid climates than a short eard goat, all Alpine breeds have short ears, I am not very familiar with why the LaMancha has such tiny ears I do know they where created in the US. here, the best milkers have round, well fitted, tight, high udders (they can be as big as a melon, but still tight to the doe, kind of like my LaMancha doe, she is by no means perfect, but a good visual, here she was producing 1 1/2 gallons a day)
> View attachment 149847
> View attachment 149849


I never thought about the ears, I'd always heard that horns help with heat dispersion. Around here there are no udders as nice as that.


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

FoxRidge said:


> @spidy1 that is a lovely udder!!
> 
> @Trollmor I remember but ex's does, some of the Nubians had the long pendulous teats and they were like leather. In his mind they were excellent milking does. One of the does had a scar on her teat from when it got snagged on something out in the paddock  very sad. These were my first experiences with goats so I wasn't too freaked out. now had I see those does for the first time I would have scolded him and told him to just retire those does to being pasture buddies to live out their days or sell for meat.


If all the goats with pendulous teats were culled here, there would be almost no goats left. Udder injuries are very common. Most goats here are raised for meat... even though they are not very meaty.


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## dzt66 (Apr 9, 2018)

That is very interesting. I just discovered my 3 week old doe has four teats. From what I am reading that’s a bad quality (at least I think that’s what I’m finding) and that she will probably have teats that don’t function. Maybe confusing her babies one day? I don’t show my goats so it’s no biggie but very interesting. Her mom has a nipple that has a double barrel so I guess it’s in her genes


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

Four teats... so that would be from a buck that has 4 testes, right? haha. Many goats here have extra teats, or teats with two orifices. I've heard you can snip extra ones off when they are very small. I assume you use a numbing agent of some kind?


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## FoxRidge (Aug 26, 2016)

dzt66 said:


> That is very interesting. I just discovered my 3 week old doe has four teats. From what I am reading that's a bad quality (at least I think that's what I'm finding) and that she will probably have teats that don't function. Maybe confusing her babies one day? I don't show my goats so it's no biggie but very interesting. Her mom has a nipple that has a double barrel so I guess it's in her genes


So from what I have read if the doe and doeling are meat bred and not dair it is not as important that the teat structure is perfect. They have diamgrams of what is acceptable for boers for sure. I used to have a couple Boer does and none of them had just 2 teats, it was bizarre.

I don't think snipping them off is a good idea, I cringed just now thinking about it. Thekids usually figure out what teats give them milk pretty fast.


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## dzt66 (Apr 9, 2018)

adrienne said:


> Four teats... so that would be from a buck that has 4 testes, right? haha. Many goats here have extra teats, or teats with two orifices. I've heard you can snip extra ones off when they are very small. I assume you use a numbing agent of some kind?


Lol! Wouldn't four testes be a site?! I won't be snipping anything off. I can't imagine that! Just look at this sweet face! Lol


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

adrienne said:


> I've heard you can snip extra ones off when they are very small.


Please do NOT do that. Very often it won't close completely and it will leak milk and allow bacteria into the udder.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

multiple teats are common in some breeds including Boers, I use to have a % Boer doe that I milked with 4, milking wasn't two complicated, just different.
this is for Boer goats, dairy goats here are not allowed to be different than the first one on the diagram (P1). 
you may have to enlarge to see well, I do...


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

here's a few pics I found, not my goats...


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

1 more, this is my now wether Russ, he has 3 on one side, 2 on the other...
EDT: his scrotum is not split, he was just puckered up at being on his back


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

Lamanchas have little ears to prevent snagging on berries and brush. They were bred to fed off of those


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

dzt66 said:


> Lol! Wouldn't four testes be a site?! I won't be snipping anything off. I can't imagine that! Just look at this sweet face! Lol
> View attachment 149873


OMG what a cutie. I couldn't snip them either. I cant remember who told me that, maybe it was just the hair brained idea of an individual.


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

dreamacresfarm2 said:


> Lamanchas have little ears to prevent snagging on berries and brush. They were bred to fed off of those


Oooh, I wonder if that's what happened to a couple of mine. I just assumed one of the other does bit their ears, but we have lots of prickly, thorny stuff in our pastures.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

dreamacresfarm2 said:


> Lamanchas have little ears to prevent snagging on berries and brush. They were bred to fed off of those


Spanish missionaries who colonized California brought with them a short-eared breed of goat suitable for either milk or meat production , which was very similar to the Lamancha goat. They referred to these as "cuties," "monas," and "monkeys"; nicknames used affectionately by the Spanish for "freaks." Seed animals from the initial herd were transplanted to each new mission, thus distributing these "monkeys" throughout the West. This strain of short-eared goats is generally assumed to be the progenitor of today's LaMancha goats.


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

goathiker said:


> Spanish missionaries who colonized California brought with them a short-eared breed of goat suitable for either milk or meat production , which was very similar to the Lamancha goat. They referred to these as "cuties," "monas," and "monkeys"; nicknames used affectionately by the Spanish for "freaks." Seed animals from the initial herd were transplanted to each new mission, thus distributing these "monkeys" throughout the West. This strain of short-eared goats is generally assumed to be the progenitor of today's LaMancha goats.


The Spanish dumped off all their reject goats here in Ecuador so they could make more room on their ships for delicious tortoises from Galapagos. Nobody here worked to improve the goats, they just roamed and bred freely for 500 years. I have a very old goat with small ears named Mona. When we first bought her years ago we thought she was weird looking.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

adrienne said:


> The Spanish dumped off all their reject goats here in Ecuador so they could make more room on their ships for delicious tortoises from Galapagos. Nobody here worked to improve the goats, they just roamed and bred freely for 500 years. I have a very old goat with small ears named Mona. When we first bought her years ago we thought she was weird looking.


The fact that nobody intentionally bred them and they roamed for 500 years is not necessarily a bad thing - that may have eliminated a lot of genetics that could not survive the climate and parasite demands of your country! But it doesn't explain the poor udder conformations, wild bred and wild culled goats would normally have high tight udders. (because those with un-nurseable udders, the kids would die, and those with udders dragging on the ground would end up infected)


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

SalteyLove said:


> The fact that nobody intentionally bred them and they roamed for 500 years is not necessarily a bad thing - that may have eliminated a lot of genetics that could not survive the climate and parasite demands of your country! But it doesn't explain the poor udder conformations, wild bred and wild culled goats would normally have high tight udders. (because those with un-nurseable udders, the kids would die, and those with udders dragging on the ground would end up infected)


Many of these semi wild goats have only one functioning teat, lots of scars, and many of them don't look so good. Especially in the dry season. In Galapagos they are trying to get rid of the goats to protect the ecosystem. First they went through and shot them from helicopters. When there weren't so many goats left and/or they all learned to hide when they heard the helicopter, they manipulated a doe to make her smell like she is constantly in heat, released her, track her and now shoot all of the males she attracts. It's not so good being a goat in Latin America.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm going to weigh in that no, there is no correlation in split scrotum and udder. I have a buck with one, so I'll get some pictures of him and some of his daughters.

Also, I specifically asked when we were getting a linear appraisal about a split scrotum being a fault and according to the appraiser the only requirement for a buck related to testicles is that he have 2 of them.


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

IHEARTGOATS said:


> I'm going to weigh in that no, there is no correlation in split scrotum and udder. I have a buck with one, so I'll get some pictures of him and some of his daughters.
> 
> Also, I specifically asked when we were getting a linear appraisal about a split scrotum being a fault and according to the appraiser the only requirement for a buck related to testicles is that he have 2 of them.


So the plot thickens.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All really good advice.

I agree, never snip off extra teats, that will cause major issues.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

adrienne said:


> In Galapagos they are trying to get rid of the goats to protect the ecosystem. First they went through and shot them from helicopters. When there weren't so many goats left and/or they all learned to hide when they heard the helicopter, they manipulated a doe to make her smell like she is constantly in heat, released her, track her and now shoot all of the males she attracts. It's not so good being a goat in Latin America.


Not too different from the goat cull on San Clemente Island (southern most island off the coast of California) that took place from the 70s to early 90s.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

adrienne said:


> So the plot thickens.


ADGA standards state that a split is not desirable and may not be longer than 1/2 inch.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

I've never seen that.
I'll have to look at my guidebook.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

adrienne said:


> So the plot thickens.


I guess I'll need to check the guide book.
I have one with a split with 2 championship legs.
Of course, I haven't measured it and I don't think _I will.mg:_


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

heres an artical on it,
https://articles.extension.org/pages/63281/goat-reproduction-selection-visual-appraisal

Bucks must have two large, well-formed, functional, equal-sized testes in a single scrotum. Sperm production is related to the circumference of the testicles. More semen is produced by bucks with greater scrotal circumference. Mature bucks should have a scrotum circumference of at least 25 cm or 10 inches. In young bucks, testicles should be of equal size and large for day of age. Avoid selecting bucks that exhibit sizable splits in the scrotum. Avoid selecting bucks that show overly pendulous testicles. Testicles should be free of bumps or lumps and should be smooth.

Culling faults include single testicle, testicles too small, abnormal or diseased testes, and excessive split in scrotum. The teat structure of the buck should also be reviewed as the buck has a large impact on the herd if his daughters are retained as replacements


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

dzt66 said:


> That is very interesting. I just discovered my 3 week old doe has four teats. From what I am reading that's a bad quality (at least I think that's what I'm finding) and that she will probably have teats that don't function. Maybe confusing her babies one day? I don't show my goats so it's no biggie but very interesting. Her mom has a nipple that has a double barrel so I guess it's in her genes


If all four teats work well, her udder will only be like any cow udder. But if a teat sits on another teat, like in the picture shared (if someone can find it - I can not!), there might be trouble when milking her. The kids usually can suck anyway.

*thinking* - or trying to: If the climate is warm, maybe it is good to have some extra cooling of teats and testicles?


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

adrienne said:


> Many of these semi wild goats have only one functioning teat, lots of scars, and many of them don't look so good. Especially in the dry season. In Galapagos they are trying to get rid of the goats to protect the ecosystem. First they went through and shot them from helicopters. When there weren't so many goats left and/or they all learned to hide when they heard the helicopter, they manipulated a doe to make her smell like she is constantly in heat, released her, track her and now shoot all of the males she attracts. It's not so good being a goat in Latin America.


I thought they had made goats extinct now, in the Galapagos? I use to call "goat maths" for "the Galapagos lesson", I mean, sailors put out FOUR goats on the remote island, to have meat when they next returned, am I right?

But why on Earth they do not just construct a slaughter house and ship the meat to some harbour to sell it, I fail to understand.

Here in the North, goats traditionally fed in the forrest, and walked long distances to find enough. Long udders and long ears certainly got damaged, and were looked upon unfavourably when breeding or buying. And yes, the Swedish goats for sure bite one anothers' ears when wanting to tell someone off!

Getting still a bit away from parts between hind legs, we have a law here that all goats, sheep, pigs, and cows MUST have tags in their ears, with damaged ears as a consequence. I curse that law!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> I agree, never snip off extra teats, that will cause major issues.


Unless, of course, you can have a vet do it under anaesthesia, and sew it together properly.


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## adrienne (Jul 3, 2015)

Trollmor said:


> I thought they had made goats extinct now, in the Galapagos? I use to call "goat maths" for "the Galapagos lesson", I mean, sailors put out FOUR goats on the remote island, to have meat when they next returned, am I right?
> 
> But why on Earth they do not just construct a slaughter house and ship the meat to some harbour to sell it, I fail to understand.
> 
> ...


The goats in Galapagos had been contained by natural barriers that they never crossed in nearly 500 years... until somewhat recently. A few goats decided to try crossing this very difficult area of lava rock. and then a few more. Like you say, those goats multiplied quickly and started destroying parts of Galapagos that people had assumed was safe from the goats. So now they want to rid the islands completely of goats. There are VERY strict laws about importing and exporting into Galapagos so I imagine that makes it hard to export meat. I do hope that the people living there are eating the meat.
Here there aren't so many people raising goats so the law about ear tags does not (yet) apply to goats. Only recently did the government start controlling beef and pork in a meaningful way. I see some people with semi wild goats that intentionally make cuts in the goats' ears to mark them. It makes the goats look very... raggedy. Add in long, scarred udders, completely split scrotums, vampire bat bites and botfly larva in the skin and they're not a pretty bunch.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Trollmor said:


> Unless, of course, you can have a vet do it under anaesthesia, and sew it together properly.


No, not even then.
When that doe freshens(fills with milk), it will balloon out in that spot where the teat was, looking horrible and will not be good. Huge mistake. Never do it.

Some breeders do this to get more money for a doe who is flawed and is super nice otherwise.
It is a temporary cover up and cheats the potential buyer. Not knowing the outcome, the buyer will be devastated when that doe gets closer to kidding, when they thought they bought a clean teated doe. 
Very dishonest and horrible to the buyer and the goat.
Even if someone wants to clip a teat off and keep her. 
That is a nightmare waiting to happen. 

If a doe has a flawed teat it is what it is and surgiacally rempving it only casues a bad outcome.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

adrienne said:


> The goats in Galapagos had been contained ...


I saw a photo in a book with a ship FULL with goats, going from Galapagos to Ecuador to be slaughtered. They all looked roughly the same, so I guess they were all related. In my opinion, someone like you, adrienne, should have been offered to breed them to save this particular breed from extinction. They must be extremely sturdy, having lived for so many generations on that very rough island!

Are there enough people living n the Galapagos to eat all those goats?

The ear tags here is an invention from the EU, to control the food. What I do not accept is, that it is not allowed to tattoo instead. (To cut marks in ears is now forbidden, this was done in earlier times. I think the Sames are allowed to still do it.)

And thank you for your informative entries! 

@toth boer goats Thank you for the information! I only know of my goat, and she kidded several times, with that sewn teat. I forgot that many of you sell your goats!


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