# Culling bad Moms, undesirable traits, aggressive behavior, etc.



## FullMoonFarm-Ky (Jan 15, 2014)

I am new and am trying to build my herd up to 20-30 goats. I'm trying to get there sooner rather than later, but I'm not just buying junk to get my numbers up. Having said that, I have a few goats already that I am skeptical of. 

I am up to 12 goats now - 10 boer does, 1 saanen doe, and 1 registered PB boer buck. I am very pleased with 8 of them, however there are 2 does that I got from auction that were obviously not well taken care of, but I thought they showed potential. Now that I have had them they are extremely skiddish, hard to catch, and somewhat aggressive with good when it comes to the smaller ones. I have another doe that I purchased from a sale barn that has deformed teats. 2 are good, so I am hoping that isn't an issue. Lastly, my registered doe I bought from a breeder, who is bred, is much bigger and older than the others, and is obviously the queen bee. However, she is violent with the others... while feeding and just in general. So bad that I isolate her in her own pen at night when I put them up; she's okay out at pasture. 

So, my question is... what parameters do you all have for your herd for culling such does as I described? The 2 skiddish ones I don't want to cull yet because I hope they come around, and I'm curious if they are good mothers. The one with deformed teats is a good looking goat, and I would like to have her kid Atleast once as well. My pregnant registered doe I Atleast want to get the kids out of her since I have live coverage papers on her and will be able to register her babies. Then she is gone. 

So what is everyone's rule of thumb on weeding out bad or undesirable or hard to work goats? I'm having a tough time making my mind up because I am at the same time trying to build my herd up. I'm sure this dilemma would be easier to decide if I already had a large herd. What did you all do when you were first starting out?




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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

This is going to depend on what you are selling the kids for, breeding stock, show, or meat.
I breed for 4h kids and breeding stock so some of my requirements might be different than yours. I cull any goat that needs its hooves trimmed more than the others, needs dewormed often, bad teat structure or bite, and bad mothering skills (except in the case of FF). I've had goats so wild that they would take out a fence if you got too close, but now they eat out of my hand. Just give them some time and the more you are out there with them the more they will trust you.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I don't keep does that have bad teats. Udder structure is somewhere around 25% heritable and, although it is possible to breed a bad udder out, it can take a few generations to do that. Bottle teats can prevent a kid from latching on, and I don't like milking well enough to have to intervene to get the kid nursing. ETA: There is also the chance that they could deliver unexpectedly, and bad teats can and do result in dead kids depending on the time of year and circumstances. 

I also do not keep overly aggressive does. If I have to separate a doe for the safety of the rest of the herd or their unborn kids, that doe is on the next trailer out of here.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I agree with Jean on this. Bad teats are not acceptable...she would be culled. Having to separate one for the safety of all the others isn't acceptable either. I have a couple that are pretty aggressive toward everyone else, but I don't have to separate them for other goats safety (except at kidding time....) The 2 that are kind of skittish, I would keep around. My best milker was a salebarn buy with 2 kids that I don't believe were actually hers...WILD! Oh heavens! She was awful wild! But she gave over a gallon a day milking once a day. I had more milk than I knew what to do with! (she died this last Dec.) 

In your shoes I would absolutely cull the bad teats. The registered doe would be gone as soon as I could realistically wean her kids.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

This is a tough question and also very subject to personal preference.

Basically - does that make my goat herd unenjoyable are sold. My herd is for meat production & the pleasure of having livestock on a historic family farm. 

Things that make my herd unenjoyable: does that are bad at getting their kids up & nursing (fussy, hungry, screaming kids and a jumpy doe is no fun - but she gets a second chance if a first timer), does that holler for me non-stop, goats that jump fences, goats that are impossible to catch for hoof trimming (our set-up needs improving, until then - why make things hard on us?), does that need to be de-wormed more than twice a year, etc.

However, my dear Winnie who has terrible feet and is a beast to other goats at feeding time, I allow to stay, because she is a GREAT mother and produces lovely thriving kids every single year who don't carry on those traits.

I also had two does kid twins last month, each rejected one twin. I came up with excuses for both and will give them second chances but...they are just squeaking by - I don't do bottle babies!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

One more comment on your skittish does - they tend to come around better if they don't have a partner in crime. AKA: two skittish does will stick together and bounce of the walls when you enter the pen - taking cues from each other. A single skittish doe will take leads from the other goats and eventually calm down in my experience.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes bad teats are out of here. Both bucklings & doelings. They go to sale barn for the meat buyers.
Or we sell right off the place for meat.

eta My first girls were from a large herd. One took almost a year before she learned that full body massages were available on demand.


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## jmsdvm (Apr 2, 2014)

I agree with everyone's comments and would also add a bit of wisdom from one of the finest herdsmen I know. "Don't bother to carefully match good traits to improve animals with bad traits. Just breed the best to the best, and cull the rest." It sounds ruthless, but in the long run, it gets you where you want to be much faster. It applies to buck power as well. And disposition is an important part of a buck you choose as well! It's not just the mom that raises them!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I don't/wouldn't keep or breed:

*Does or bucks who are unnecessarily aggressive (I have a dominate doe, but she isn't ruthless).
*Does who have had 2 bad kiddings in a row.
*Does who have poor udder structure or are prone to recurring mastitis. 
*Does who reject kids on a consistent basis (I dam-raise).
*Does or bucks who are generally prone to illness.
*Bucks who throw unimproved udders or conformation.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

SalteyLove said:


> One more comment on your skittish does - they tend to come around better if they don't have a partner in crime. AKA: two skittish does will stick together and bounce of the walls when you enter the pen - taking cues from each other. A single skittish doe will take leads from the other goats and eventually calm down in my experience.


Not necessarily. I've got too many sets of twins where one will walk up to me and tug at my shirt tail, but the other one won't to believe this statement. I've got a set of twin does that are a year old - one of them has been checking me out, so to speak - and yesterday she finally allowed me to pet her. Her sister isn't interested, and I don't have a problem with that. I allow them to come around in their own time. Same thing with kids and dams - my wildest does tend to produce the tamest kids, whereas my tame does' kids take a while to figure out I'm not so bad after all.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

You report a mixture of meat and dairy animals so it's hard to know what to say without knowing what your goals are.

I keep a running list of all my goats.

On that list I put the things I like about them, the things I don't like about them. The times they have got sick or needed special care, how many pounds of milk they have given and at what age, their linear appraisal scores.

I have that on Microsoft Word and they are ranked from top to bottom.

The things I personally select for

Milk production
Linear Appraisal Score
Ease of milking
Ease of Kidding
Overall Health


Since you have assembled your herd as far as difficult animals it will be hard for you to know what is what till theys settle in and a herd pecking order is established. You may not know till they kid and then the kids all raised under your management and care show their traits.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

Before I culled for a bad teat, is it deformed or was it injured? I would cull for a deformed one but not for a damaged one. Unless the damge was caused by a deformity, like a bologna teat. 

A lot of skittish does will stop being that way after they kid if you are there when they kid. You get the kidding fluids on your hands and let the doe lick/sniff it and they accept you as their own.

For me, I cull for:
bad udder attachment
tiny teats
more than 2 teats
not conforming to breed standards
stupidity
extreme nastiness to myself and others (has to be dangerously nasty)
lack of worm resistance
CL

I don't care if they don't care for their kids, as long as they don't kill them. I would rather bottle feed. (But then, I raise dairy goats, not meat)


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

OK I'll be the odd ball here lol. Well I guess first how is it deformed??? I have a few does with badly split teats....never had a issue feeding kids and actually my better does.....no way would I cull them. I do have one that could put a old grandma cow to shame her teats are so big that I'm going to cull this year. It took forever for her kids to learn to latch onto the big suckers and was stressful for me when I'm trying to help them and kid out the other goats at the same time.
As for the crazy ones I would give them a chance if they are still new. With mine I don't care how crazy they are as long as they come when I call and to a bucket of grain. With my semi crazys I pour grain out and everyone runs to it and I can sneak in and grab the crazys to do feet and such. 
Mean ones don't really bother me.....BUT they have a big enough area that the smaller ones can get away if bullies are in a mood. Probably if they were in a smaller area that would so be a cull factor for me.
I started out the same way as you....basically buying junk with some good. I put up with a lot at first but now that I have larger numbers my culling list.gets longer. Right now the list basically is:
Bad mothers - no if ands or buts they are gone as well as mean does. I will put up with a little protectiveness after kidding but I have one on my sale list that got me down in the middle of the night and beat the crap out of me when she kidded.....she is soooo gone. 
Singles twice in a row. The first time is a free pass but if the following year another single gone. I can understand if they had twins the year before and pumped it all into their kids then gave me a single but singles don't pay bills. And ones that have flat out crappy kids especially when the mom is nice and fat and the kids are crappy. Also right now I have a trailer full to go to the sale tomorrow of fence crawlers......so over that!!
We all manage our goats differently and what works for one doesn't for another. The goats you have need to be your ideal goat and if they don't cut it sell them.....there are thousands of goats out there that are gold goats and could work for you. You will also later on see that the best goats for you are the off spring to the ones you have because they were born there and know where they belong in the herd so won't fight as much and they know who you are and that you don't mean them harm and on and on.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

SalteyLove said:


> Basically - does that make my goat herd unenjoyable are sold.


I think this is as good a culling theory as any and the main one I use as well. It's OK to keep any goat just because you like them and it's OK to find a new home for any of them if you don't like them. I also apply the word "easy". The easy goats are the ones I want. The OP says she has 12 goats and likes 8 of them. I would call that a pretty darn good start.


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## FullMoonFarm-Ky (Jan 15, 2014)

Excellent information everyone! I know every herd and situation is different, but it is nice to hear the various setups, circumstances, and preferences. The help and advice is much appreciated!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Jessica84 said:


> You will also later on see that the best goats for you are the off spring to the ones you have because they were born there and know where they belong in the herd so won't fight as much and they know who you are and that you don't mean them harm and on and on.


This is a good point. I also believe your subsequent generations have better immunity to disease that could be around your farm.


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## eqstrnathlete (Mar 16, 2013)

I culled one this year because I was afraid she was going to seriously injure other goats.


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