# Cl help?



## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

So a friend of mine has bought her goats all from a tested cl/ cae herd and just had one get a lesion and had her tested and it came back positive. This is a show goat. We are scratching our heads trying to figure out where her goat picked it up. We are trying to figure out what her options are for the goat. Anyone have any ideas???

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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

If this gal was vaced for CL it's going to come back as a false positve.
Where is the lesion located?
I would also send in another sample to a different lab.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

redmuttranch said:


> So a friend of mine has bought her goats all from a tested cl/ cae herd and just had one get a lesion and had her tested and it came back positive. This is a show goat. We are scratching our heads trying to figure out where her goat picked it up. We are trying to figure out what her options are for the goat. Anyone have any ideas???
> 
> Redmuttranch.weebly.com


The CL vaccine for sheep is only about 85% effective, and the new goat CL vaccine is too new to know what its effectiveness is. Testing for CL is not 100% accurate, according to what I've read, and it's possible that this goat was a false negative. It is also very possible that the goat picked it up at a show since the bacteria can live in the soil and environment for a year or more. As far as options, if treated properly the goat could very well never develop another abscess and can continue her show career with no problems. She will always be CL positive, however, and care should be taken to make sure she does not infect other goats with the bacteria.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Its unethical to take that doe back into an area with peoples negative goats. There are other ways other then an open abscess CL can be passed to clean goats. Thus Id suspect is how you got it. From some piece of chit who had no care for other peoples goats.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

The tests are scientific and are what they are. Titers and bacteria count are what they are. It's in the interpreting that there are issues unless the lab used was less then reputable. That said. If it was a pus culture test done by a reputable lab, then I would tend to believe them.

If you keep the serology test up to date running it first 3-4 weeks apart and then every 6 months, you'll be able to know if it's worsening or if there are internal abscesses which at that point its a serious issue. So IMO, I would get the serology test done to find out what the titer count is and how bad the CL is in the system.

It's fairly easy for a goat to pick up CL at a fair - it has an incubation time of 2 months up to 2 years. Any unethical person could have brought their goat to a fair with an open abscess or internal CL that was being coughed up and left it on to surfaces where it lives somewhere from 5 months to 2 years (WSU says 5 months, popular opinion is 2 years) - at which point your goat may have licked that surface or gotten it in to their nose or eyes or scratched themselves on it and gotten that into their blood stream.

Because of the method of transmission its unethical to take that goat back out to show.

The vaccine on a pos goat will help prevent that animal from having further outbreaks. it won't stop the outbreaks but will lessen the number they will have.

There is a long thread here on CL that has a lot of options and oodles of information from a bunch of members.
http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/cl-discussion-150100/


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

tdg-farms said:


> its unethical to take that doe back into an area with peoples negative goats. There are other ways other then an open abscess cl can be passed to clean goats. Thus id suspect is how you got it. From some piece of chit who had no care for other peoples goats.


we have show goats and have everything tested yearly we also use the guidelines for scrapie prevention as put out by the usda. We have the solid partitions between our goatpens and the other herds goatpens. Everybody thinks we are crazy. Obviously they do not know what the usda guidelines are. But everybody has scrapie tatoos or tags, BUT OBVIOUSLY THEY DONT KNOW WHY OR EVEN WHAT SCRAPIE IS. These guidelines work for other diseases as well. We try to get the same pens each year. I am sure that tdg is right that somebody didnt care.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

goatcrazy said:


> the cl vaccine for sheep is only about 85% effective, and the new goat cl vaccine is too new to know what its effectiveness is. Testing for cl is not 100% accurate, according to what i've read, and it's possible that this goat was a false negative. It is also very possible that the goat picked it up at a show since the bacteria can live in the soil and environment for a year or more. As far as options, if treated properly the goat could very well never develop another abscess and can continue her show career with no problems. She will always be cl positive, however, and care should be taken to make sure she does not infect other goats with the bacteria.


 the goat had a positive lesion? You can test it again but once it is established that she is positive i cant see a vet ever giving her health papers for a show and it horrifying that anyone would entertain the thoght of showing her again, you will have to test your entire herd and hope she hasnt passed it on. I think she doesnt have much future or at least ehe wouldnt have a future in my herd. Thats just the way i feel about it.


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

As with a few of the others I would like to know if the positive result was from a pus test or blood. If it was a pus test then yes the goat could have came back with a false neg blood test before or it could have picked it up at a show. Even the highly level of bio-security can pick up nasty things. One thing people do not think about it disinfecting hooves. If your goat walks out of your safe clean show pen and walks around the ring and through other areas and then back into there safe pen without disinfecting the hooves then those nasty things can walk straight into your safe area. If they had been tested positive by a blood test and had received the vaccination then you would really need to run a PCR titer to verify the findings. 

Where was the spot located? Some times goats can get foreign bodies (splinters, tick bites, etc) or have vaccine reactions sites that can appear to be something they are not.

The way you stated your sentence makes it sound like it was the pus that was tested on this goat. If so I am sorry. In my opinion I would not show this goat again even if it gets under control because I would not want someone else to have their goats exposed. With that being said I also want to point out I don't consider it being a death sentence either for the goat. I would hate to see a nice animal that can still live a happy life be destroyed due to being labeled with a stigma. There are a larger number of people out there that would be willing to house a positive goat with others that have been id as positive. Or practice extreme QT measures at home and have the whole herd PCR titer tested. Sad thing is if there is one true positive you probably will have others in the herd now positive either from the same show exposure or from prior false neg testing.

Speak to your state lab for options for testing and your local vet for more information.

Hope this helps.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

There's been good replys. I know for me it's one of the reasons I hesitate to show next year- I'll do milk test and LA's. Due to the small number of animals I have I would have to part ways with a positive animal, not allow any goats to come or go for a year and test twice during that year. Like I said that would be just me, everyone has different opinions on that. Sorry that they are dealing with it. I use WADDL for my testing and they have quite a bit of information on their site as well.


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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

It was a blood serum test that was done but she had an active bump that never burst till it was lanced and drained and cleaned at the vets office. The vet said her cl is the internal type. What my friend is trying to figure out is what are the chances her other four goats that were in the same pen have it and what is the chance that her other goats in a pen about 75 feet away could have it? 

The goat is question is not going to be taken to any shows anymore an if unable to find a responsible person that understands the disease to take her, she will be euthanized and properly disposed of. Her owners are being really responsible. 

She has her separated and we are drawing blood tomorrow on her whole herd of 16 and sending it to the lab. It's gonna be expensive but she doesn't want to have any doubts in her mind. But what are the probability of any other goats on her property having it?

Redmuttranch.weebly.com


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I would be testing the whole herd if she got a CL+ test result. Be sure to retest because the blood tests aren't always that accurate. A test of the abscess would be much more accurate.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

WSU WADDL procedure on serology testing is after the first test, do a second test in 3-4 weeks and then test every 6 months.

Sounds like they're doing the right thing. My heart goes out to them.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

well. i would say that the ones in the same pen would be at high risk, the ones 75 feet away not somuch unless they were ever in contact with her. i agree with the course of action the owners are taking. it's heart breaking but responsible.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

I would not condem an animal on a blood test for CL. I would only condem one from a test on the abcess pus. The blood test is not accurate enough, only the pus one is accurate.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

lottsagoats, If a goat has over 1:256 as a result in the titers, that does indicate internal abscesses and should be considered a definite positive. If the vet says the goat has internal abscesses then that must have been the result but should always check to see what the titers result was.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Totally agree Amy. Internal abscess are just as dangerous and should be taken into account. This is why we had such a hard line stance against CL. Its ability to be spread in several ways makes it to risky to try and work around. Thus why we refused to bring any positive animal with us onto our new piece of property. And as heart breaking as it sounds, if one ever did happen to show up with an abscess, she would be sent to the sales. Our goats are our babies but we are not willing to risk them all for the love of one.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

enchantedgoats said:


> the goat had a positive lesion? You can test it again but once it is established that she is positive i cant see a vet ever giving her health papers for a show and it horrifying that anyone would entertain the thoght of showing her again, you will have to test your entire herd and hope she hasnt passed it on. I think she doesnt have much future or at least ehe wouldnt have a future in my herd. Thats just the way i feel about it.


Perhaps you could show me where the original poster stated that the pus from the abscess was tested and it came back positive? The poster stated that the goat had been tested, NOT the abscess. There are a lot of things that can cause a goat to test positive for CL - vaccination being one of them - when they are, in fact, negative. As for the way you feel - last time I checked it was a free world and you are entitled to your opinion, however, that does not mean that I have to agree with it.


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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm the original poster. The pus as far as I know was not tested. It was a blood test came back 1.256 + and the vet determined it internal.  I totally feel for them but I am trying to pick your brains about wether or not she should be concerned about the goats that are in a pen about 75 feet away and what the probability of the goats kept in close contact with the infected goat being infected as well. We are drawing blood in the morning on the whole herd of 16 and sending it to the lab ASAP. It's quite expensive but we feel it is necessary just to be sure. Such a sad situation but I am so proud of her for taking such immediate responsible measures.

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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

Also the CL + goat has never received the vaccine...

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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

redmuttranch said:


> I'm the original poster. The pus as far as I know was not tested. It was a blood test came back 1.256 + and the vet determined it internal.  I totally feel for them but I am trying to pick your brains about wether or not she should be concerned about the goats that are in a pen about 75 feet away and what the probability of the goats kept in close contact with the infected goat being infected as well. We are drawing blood in the morning on the whole herd of 16 and sending it to the lab ASAP. It's quite expensive but we feel it is necessary just to be sure. Such a sad situation but I am so proud of her for taking such immediate responsible measures.
> 
> Redmuttranch.weebly.com


The goats kept in close proximity are at a significantly elevated risk of having CL. Does she have a cough? What is the likelihood that a prior abscess went unnoticed and burst? If no cough and unlikely prior abscess then there is a better chance for her companions, though it is still a high risk situation.

The goats kept away from her have a much better chance of escaping CL. Burst abscess would make it easier to transmit the infection to the secondary pen, as would a cough that could spread the germs to yer hands or boots. If no cough or prior abscess, though, then they have a good chance of coming away unscathed.

At least that's what I've read. Hope that helps! Good luck to your friend.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

At the farm I worked on we separated the positives from the negatives at about that same distance and we had good success that way. But the farm as a whole was contaminated so when a previous clean goat ended up with an abscess, it was always thought to have picked it up from some other source then the positive does.


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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

She has never had an abcess prior to this and she has never noticed this goat coughing either. Im thinking she caught it pretty early but she is pretty vigilant with her goats and has never had one get sick until to now. We just are so confused with this. Poor goat is the original goat of their herd and they love her I death!!!!! She is quite famous in their circle of friends and they are very attached to her which makes this situation extremely hard on them.

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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

that is a tough spot to be in. My very first goat was a baby that was born while we were in town and nursed her known CAE positive dam. She was destined to be dinner and I fell in love at first site. So she became mine. She lived to be 7 years old and had popped 3 or 4 CL abscess as well as having CAE. From which her front knees ended up fusing together. Which was good cause during the colder months they hurt her a bit but after they fused she was much better off.

Now though, being on a clean farm, its just one of those awful choices we would have to make and get rid of anyone who came up positive for CL. I thank the good Lord for his blessings that we have not had to make that choice.


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

What I would do to be sure since the pus was not tested is to have them run the paired PCR titer. This will help to rule out testing errors. Have they owned the goat since birth to be sure it never had the vax from a previous owner?


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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

They bought her at birth from a friend who doesn't do the CL vaccine. Wish us luck with the blood draw today and let's hope the results are clean!

Redmuttranch.weebly.com


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

Best wishes for the new blood draw. We can hope for the best.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Good luck with the blood draw. I'm hoping everyone else if clean. You seem knowledgeable but I just wanted to check that you know kids 6 months or under may test unreliable due to mom's antibodies.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

And WSU recommends testing positives a second time just to be certain. They say its possible the titers go down. Also seeing if they go up will tell how bad its progressing if at all. 

1:256 is the base marker for internal CL.  titers can be a lot higher but that is the base mark they use. I'm sorry your friend is going through this.


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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

The youngest goat in the herd right now is 7 months old and we decided to just test her anyway knowing she is pretty close to the cutoff. The blood draw went super easy. Surprisingly easy actually and the tubes are in my fridge waiting to be sent on Monday. I would send them sooner but today was the only day we both had free to pull blood and the weekend would delay the delivery since the lab isn't open till Monday. I already talked to the lab as they said having the tubes arrive Tuesday will be fine as long as they stay cool. Everyone please cross their fingers!!

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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

Oh and we are retesting the doe that initially tested positive 2 weeks ago. I know it's a little soon but it's cheaper to stick it in with the others so we aren't paying shipping on just one tube later. Might as well we figured. Unfortunately Arizona doesn't have a lab so we have to send it to California. :/

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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

You know, just because she has CL doesn't mean you have to euthanize her. In fact, I find that cruel if she is otherwise healthy. Goats can live long productive lives with CL. I would be testing the pus, not just the blood because of false positives/negatives. That's just my .02.


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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

We're it my goat I would have had the pus tested as well but the vet just did blood. And she has found a friend to take her to live as a pet and lawn mower and live out the rest of her life pending this blood test and another in 6 months. She won't be euthanized but until I talked to her she was distraught and in tears thinking that this was what she would have to do and tr others in the same pen. Or at least that was the feeling I got from her. They ABSOLUTELY LOVE this goat. But being CL positive they can't keep her since the reason they have goats is mostly for 4h and thy obviously can't show a goat with cl with a good conscious.

Redmuttranch.weebly.com


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

It is typical to test the pus and not serology but in this case it's great that the vet did test serology. If it's internal, blood testing is the only way to know. External abscesses aren't exactly easy to contain and manage but at least you can see them and know if one is about to pop. With internal, you never know where they are and if they're in the lungs, the animal could be spreading the bacteria through sneezing or coughing.

Thankfully the goat in the case sounds healthy so maybe the other animals are safe so far. My fingers are crossed.

Caprine Crazy - I would say for external CL there is no reason to euthanize the goat, for internal, I'm not so sure. I'm not a vet but in the research I've done, the internal CL ends up creating abscesses on internal organs. Eventually the abscesses can be so great that they strangle the organs causing them to fail and killing the animal. I'm not sure I'd want a loved goat to die in that manner.

So knowing the titers and seeing how fast growing this is, is important. CL is generally considered a slow growing disease but some goats it seems to work much faster on them.

If you trust the vet, please ask them their advice on the vaccine. The vaccine on positive animals is suppose to slow the occurrence of new abscesses. When it's external CL, you can really see what's going on. Internal, I have no idea how to know if it's keeping the goat well. I certainly wouldn't want the goat around others once it's gone internal.


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## ksevern (Dec 12, 2012)

I have vaccinated my herd with the CL vaccine from Texas Vet Labs. My goats live 'outside' in brushy,woody areas, and there is no way to prevent deer from browsing the same bushes. So, they are vaccinated. If vaccinations went up, then actual cases would go down. I can foresee a time when shows might require a vaccinated goat-- that way they would not be shedding bacteria at the show grounds.


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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

It would be great I think if the shows would make the vaccine mandatory but I think the issue would be the transition. How would they be able to tell who was infected and who wasn't? Plus I think the vaccine has a ways to go in terms of effectiveness % before that can happen. Correct me if i am wrong but its only 80%(?) effective? I do hope that in the future the vaccine will be 100% effective or close to it and become a core vaccine for goats! CL sucks!

Redmuttranch.weebly.com


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

If shows ever made them mandatory, we would never go to them. Its not that we dont believe in the vaccine but once they are done, they will test positive for them on out. Making it impossible to know who is and who isnt infected. Granted that was years ago and maybe they have refined the test process but from what I have read of late, the testing is still far from ideal.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

That is the only bummer about the vaccine. WSU says at this time they cannot tell the difference between pos and pos by vaccine. BUT, if the goat's been vaccinated yearly, then they shouldn't be getting CL.

I think the testing is scientifically correct when it's handled properly. I think a lot of the misdiagnosis is in the reading and the fact that people don't retest as WSU recommends. Though, it's good to note that there are factors that can make a test higher or lower than it should be but not by vast degrees.

WSU says that it's likely that a goat could read as 1:8 (lowest they consider positive) and in a retest be negative. They say it's not likely that a goat would read 1:128 (higher positive but still not considered internal) and in a retest come out negative. There are small variances from test to test which is why it's important to retest.

If it's decreasing in titers it means there was likely an anomaly in the first test or something going on with the goat to make the changes. If it's increasing, it's likely that the disease is progressing.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

so, uh. Basically we need a better vaccine that has markers to show that a goat is positive by vaccine. The only problem there is that there are positive goats at this time that are recommended the vaccine for help in maintaining their disease. So....we need 2 vaccines and for people to be really responsible and honest.


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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

AmyBoogie said:


> so, uh. Basically we need a better vaccine that has markers to show that a goat is positive by vaccine. The only problem there is that there are positive goats at this time that are recommended the vaccine for help in maintaining their disease. So....we need 2 vaccines and for people to be really responsible and honest.


I agree!!!!! Unfortunately a lot of people can't be trusted and will bring sick goats to shows and say they were vaccinate and not really sick. 

Redmuttranch.weebly.com


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

redmuttranch said:


> I agree!!!!! Unfortunately a lot of people can't be trusted and will bring sick goats to shows and say they were vaccinate and not really sick.
> 
> Redmuttranch.weebly.com


Thing is, they already do this.

But I just talked to another vet that has been using the vaccine and he hasn't seen any marked improvement in goats with CL. He's now working with an already infected herd to see how well it works at keeping goats from getting CL. His opinion is that the vaccine makes people feel better but it's not super effective :/ WSU and a different vet I talked to, say it works. Who knows.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

ah yes the ever prominent 2 sided goat coin. There always seem to be 2 sides to every goat issue with experts lined up on both to give the "facts". Over the years I have come to this conclusion: Do what works for you and if you are going to pick between two totally different opinions on any subject, choice the one that has the least amount of risks. Now typically this is the harder of the two choices but the safest bet.

As an example: I was arguing with someone about not milking a goat out right after it kids. My stance was, you should not do a full milk out until at least day 3 as you could cause a doe to go into "milk fever". My opinion (backed by facts from a few articles) milk fever is the result of the goats body having to divert its calcium into the production milk to quickly and the body becomes very low on calcium, resulting in milk fever. Which will kill a goat if not treated by a vet quickly. The other persons opinion (back by her experience and incorrect knowledge) that it was perfectly ok to milk a doe out right away to help up her production and that milk fever was the result of being fed alfalfa before before kidding and the body didnt know how to diver the extra calcium into the milk.

Now regardless of anyone stance on this subject, I find it pretty easy to pick which opinion to go with if you are unsure and or dont wanna risk it. My opinion posses no risks while the opinion of milking an animal out right away does. Even if someone has done it and never had an issue with it, it can cause milk fever.

So for anyone undecided on any goat related subject, do what works for you and what is safest for your goaties.  I know this got a little off topic but it kinda goes to the whole, "to vaccinate or not to vaccinate"


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

^^ This is true about most things goat and not goat. 
We all have to decide what will work for us and our own herds. If there was only one way to do things, life would hold no mystery and be far too boring


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I wonder how long your friend had this goat before the CL infiltrated her goat's system. Since the goat came from a CL tested free herd, I wonder if there was something contacted at the show. I even worry about bringing home used panels and used gates as they could have been used on an infected goat herd before coming to our place. If we buy any used items, we clean them all well. The CL in my observation is becoming a problem as more people are not careful to separate their goats or put them down. I know it is hard for people to put their CL goat down and it seems cruel but sometimes that is what is best for the rest of the herd, the family, and the infected goat. I have read that some goats with CL can encase that bacteria and keep it from spreading to the rest of the body and develope a personal immunity from it, but still- that one goat can be a carrier to the rest of the herd. Either a permanent quarantine from the other goats(which is sad and lonely) or putting the goat down is the only options I can see for your friend at this time in dealing with an infected goat.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

The vets in my area also believe that a goat with CL have a more than 50% chance of passing it on to their offspring. They believe that it is passed on through colostrum. This is not corroborated through WSU who believes that the only way to pass on CL is through direct pus contact. Which if there is an open abscess in the udder, it would indeed pass it on through not just the colostrum but all the milk. 

Part of the issue with CL is the lack of hard fact, hysteria, and rumors. 
Yet again, another time to do what you need to do to keep your herd and other's safe.

I don't believe a goat with CL needs to be put down. I do believe they shouldn't be tossed to the sale barn or sold to anyone unsuspecting. I believe they should be isolated or live out their life (if healthy) with a herd of goats that is already infected or with other animals that cannot contract this disease (like cows or horses). Like a little leper colony for goats. There of course are the cases of goats that are ill or unthrifty or have internal CL, those in my opinion might be best to euthanize for the sake of the goat's well being. Cl is not a life sentence but people do need to take responsibility and not spread this disease through ignorance.


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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> ah yes the ever prominent 2 sided goat coin. There always seem to be 2 sides to every goat issue with experts lined up on both to give the "facts". Over the years I have come to this conclusion: Do what works for you and if you are going to pick between two totally different opinions on any subject, choice the one that has the least amount of risks. Now typically this is the harder of the two choices but the safest bet.
> 
> As an example: I was arguing with someone about not milking a goat out right after it kids. My stance was, you should not do a full milk out until at least day 3 as you could cause a doe to go into "milk fever". My opinion (backed by facts from a few articles) milk fever is the result of the goats body having to divert its calcium into the production milk to quickly and the body becomes very low on calcium, resulting in milk fever. Which will kill a goat if not treated by a vet quickly. The other persons opinion (back by her experience and incorrect knowledge) that it was perfectly ok to milk a doe out right away to help up her production and that milk fever was the result of being fed alfalfa before before kidding and the body didnt know how to diver the extra calcium into the milk.
> 
> ...


Agree!!!! Do what you feel is best for your herd. As a mom that I what I do with my son. He is my son and therefore only I know what is best with suggestion and help from doctors etc. Likewise for my goats. It is my herd and only I know what is best for them. Your goaties after all are your farmily 

Redmuttranch.weebly.com


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

There is so much reliable information to read about goat diseases. I have been to several sites over the years and read as much as I can from reliable sources to come to this info that I have shrunk down for you. I don't know how to attach these sites on this forum but I am sure you can go to some and read several opinions from 'Merk Vetinary Clinic' or Tennessee Meat Goat Ass. or UCDavis of California to get an idea of this and other diseases. 
Yes, CL is manageable but it is a lot to manage and there needs to be a lot learned on just how to manage this disease. Yes, it can be transferred to humans through contaminiation of the puss either via a cut or injesting which is rare. No, it is not transferable through the goat milk or body fluids- only if there is a sore on the udder oozing out pus into milk as someone else had mentioned earlier. It is a bacteria that the goat's body will try to fight off and it can become encapsulated in abscesses. Antibiotics at this time appear do not have an effect as it is so encased that the antibiotics can not reach it. No, you do not have to put the goat down but if you can not easily manage this then you are taking a risk to spread this disease to other herds and will have to decide how miserable the goat is with the discomfort of cutting out the abscesses. It can go internally into the lungs and other organs of the goat but I think that is speculative to be found more common in sheep. 
So with the information all of us have collected over the years on this disease, and the knowledge we now have, we individually have to help keep this from spreading to other herds. I feel in the past 3 years, it has really spread to unmanageable state due to not enough people knowing what it is and/or knowledge of how to treat or deal with it. It does appear to be more contagious than once tho't as whole herds are coming down with this in a rapid way. I have not met very many people who over react to it but instead have treated it like it is a common thing and is rather expected. I wish it would be taken more seriously and dealt with in a responsible way. That's my take.. and usually someone gets all mad at me defending their reason to keep a goat with CL.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Packhill, most of your information is either dangerous or just wrong. Sorry to be blunt about it.

First CL is as manageable as it is containable. When a goat with internal abscess can cough or snot on something and pass it to other goats (rare but confirmed), the only true management is to separate/quarantine. But even that is not total management as you could transfer the bacteria to you, say by your shoes from the quarantine pen and walk into a clean pen and infect that pen as well. Or if by chance a goat with internal CL snots on your clothes and you go into a clean pen and get rubbed on by a clean goat. So you see, although someone can deal with CL in a herd, its never going to be 100% safe for clean animals.

Second. It can be transferred via body fluids and blood. At the time CL is contracted the bacteria makes its way through the blood stream to stem out into the different areas/lymphoids of the body. In point, infecting the blood of the animal from that point on. Snot as mentioned above, also a body fluid it can pass through if CL is in a goats lungs. CL abscess can also develop in the udder infecting the milk. The only thing I am unsure of is if it can be passed through the milk from an infected goat if they dont have abscess in the udder. Though CAE is a blood born retro virus that does get transferred through the milk, so its pretty safe to say, its possible for CL as well. 

Third, anti biotics dont work period. Even when introduced directly to the bacteria. This has been tested not only in the lab but by injecting abscess directly with no effect.

So do CL positive goats need to be put down? No BUT anyone who keeps them runs the risk of infecting the rest of the goats as there is just no 100% sure positive way to protect them... except to put them down or sell them at a livestock sale. WHICH is why, its never a good idea to buy from a livestock sale.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

There is more unreliable than reliable information out there. WSU is available to ask questions of as well but even then, there is a lot of practical versus clinical information available. There is not a clear and hard outline because the testing, or reading of the testing, is not generally considered reliable. It may be the certain labs that are sketchy or it may be the reading of the test. For example. WSU considers a titers result of 1:256 or higher in a serology test to be indicative of internal CL. The local vets say maybe but they wouldn't jump to those conclusions on a serology test.

IMO. Even though livestock sales are "Buyers beware" it's just spreading this disease when someone sends a sick goat to sale. It's a really poor practice.

According to WSU - the ONLY way to pass it in the milk is if there is an open abscess in the udder. Though like I mentioned, the local vets here believe that the CL is passed in colostrum much like CAE. There is a lot of belief in practicing vets that doesn't coincide with information that WSU distributes.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

TDG Farms,
Did you read my post? I think we are more in agreement than disagreement. Someone needs to just post a link on here for the person who started the thread to be able to read for themselves.. all this is getting rather confusing to sort out I am sure. People with the right info can make their own conclusions on what to do with CL. We don't take any chances at our place. We have never had to deal with it but would definitely put a goat down for sure as it is the best way for US. And if it can be transferred by body fluids- that is indeed all the more reason to be more cautious. If that is true- I would not ever encourage anyone to keep a CL goat. That bacteria is not something you or your children want to be infected with. 

So... I already stated that these were not my opinions and there is lots of info out there for you to look up and develop your own opinion. We here are just being too wordy on this subject and are confusing.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

i agree i think we have about kicked this horse to death!


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I have been hit hard over the years for encouraging people to put CL goats down as I have not seen it to be an easy to manage disease. I am not sure what I said to make it sound like I thot it was easy to manage. Supposedly from Tennessee meat goat site.. they think it can be managed with the right methods .. but those methods are complicated and risky.. If indeed there is a chance of contacting this disease by a cough.. that is all the more reason to put that infected goat down and I think we need to encourage that more than trying to manage this disease. We could have more outbreaks that could get out of control!


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## redmuttranch (Dec 28, 2012)

Results are in!!!!! The initially infected goat can back +1:32 and two other goats that were in the same pen as her came back +1:8. The other two that were in the same pen were negative. The goats in a separate pen 75 feet away are all negative!!!! So my question is the +1:8 goats... Could they be false positives? Where do we go from here?

Redmuttranch.weebly.com


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

The goats that were 1:8 - check them again in 3-4 weeks.
it's possible they were false positives but you won't know unless you check again. It's also possible they've been exposed and the antibodies are working overtime. They may never go below or above 1:8 for their entire life. So just check again in a month and you'll have an idea.

I'm so glad most of the goats came back negative!


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