# Horns or no horns?



## micole66 (Jun 7, 2014)

I have two mini goats. But these two goats are all horned. I can disbud them in adult age? Or is better disbud only for goat kids?
And the horns are dangerous for me, for other people and animals?
Why some people tell me that disbud a goat is a bad choice??


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is a personal preference. You can only disbud goat kids. You would have to band or surgically remove adult horns.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

You can surgically remove the horns but to me the risk and pain is so not worth it.
Ksalvagno is correct it is simply a personal choice. You will come across people that are very anti horns and others who are very anti disbudding. Me, I'm in the middle and totally respect both views. My herd is about 50/50 on horns and I can tell you no goat has been seriously harmed. I have had to cull some in the past because they can get a little rough but no broken bones or anything like that just simply not liking what they were doing. As for a danger to me? No not really. I might get a bruise here or there but it's usually com kids and when I hold their head between my legs to give them shots or worming. I think the worst I ever got what I was trying to lift a goat onto the fitting stand and when I lifted she threw her head back and got me in the ear but honestly it was my fault not hers.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I have both horned and polled goats. I choose to not disbud, but to breed for polled genetics. 

I have found horns to only be a pain when it comes to fences. I get sick of them getting their heads stuck. Otherwise, it doesn't make a difference to me.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I personally love horns, it is a radiator, keeps them warm in the winter, cool in the summer.

We have talked about this before, here are some links.
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/horns-vs-no-horns.192422/

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/horns-and-no-horns-in-the-same-herd.150205/


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

You tend to hear only the horror stories about having horned goats, but I have found that most of the people around me have goats with horns. And I always say to whoever I'm with: "See their goats have horns and they're not dead."

It really is a personal decision though, base on what you think will be best for your situation. Are your goats around children? Is your fence a type that they could get stuck? Those are the kind of questions you should be asking yourself. Personally I think that goats have horns for a reason and if I never have any problems I'll let them keep their horns. And they're so darn pretty in my opinion.

There are plenty of people out there that will tell you that goats should not have horns and plenty of people that will tell you that they should. It just comes down to what works for you.

Here are some links to help in your decision:
http://www.kalispellkindersandmore.com/blog/horns-or-not-on-your-goat
https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/goats-horns-or-no-horns


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I would also think it's a bit of personal experience. You do have to be careful around horned goats - AND I would never let small children in the pens. Accidents do happen, even with the sweetest goats, swinging their heads around to see somethng or move. Something to consider.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Dayna said:


> I have both horned and polled goats. I choose to not disbud, but to breed for polled genetics.
> 
> I have found horns to only be a pain when it comes to fences. I get sick of them getting their heads stuck. Otherwise, it doesn't make a difference to me.


I have to admit that was one of my cons with horns. I have no clue how they can get their heads threw and it seems there's no room to come back out.....usually ending in my fingers getting smashed but once I put hot fence up that cured it!


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## Deborah Haney (Jul 11, 2017)

It's all personal preference. A lot of people cite personal protection as a reason for keeping horns but most animals going after a goat either hunt in packs or are so big it wouldn't matter. Most goats would be more likely to flee anyway. Whatever the case, horns are not sufficient for places with active predators.

Horns are good for keeping goats cool in the summer, I would think they'd be especially important for lamanchas because they don't have big ears to cool them. If you live in a colder climate, however, look out - I know someone whos goat died of hypothermia because intead of coming in when it snowed to snuggle, he stayed out in the snow with wet horns and got too cold. They really lose a lot of heat from those suckers.

Getting their heads stuck in fences shouldn't be an issue unless you have fences that the goats can stick their heads through. It can be pretty hard to find goats from reputable breeders in my area who leave the horns so mine are disbudded but they're currently running with 4 guest goats: 2 horned, 2 disbudded. There have been far more issues with the herd queen and the pygmy with a Napoleon complex than with either of the horned goats, though "issues" is a strong word... maybe "creative herd discussions". It's to the point that I'd consider owning and keeping a horned goat with my little guys indefinitely, provided he was a kid when I got him or EXTREMELY respectful with his horns. In general, though, people have had mixed experiences with mixing horns and no horns herds. The bigger horned goat im looking after is a real sweetheart but I'm still sure to protect my face when I lean down to pick something up near him just in case he turns to look at me and stabs me or something.

Personally, I have nothing against the horns themselves, but I might have a problem with the goat wielding them. I think they're gorgeous, especially the kind that curve out. If I had a horned goat, he'd probably be wearing flower crowns all the time. I'm still planning to disbud any babies my dairy goats have because they're easier to sell and manage. I'd like to try clove oil disbudding but if that fails I'll have to act quickly with an iron. Disbudding improperly can cause scurs, though, which I cannot stand. I'd rather have a goat with 4 horns than one with scurs.

Dehorning an adult goat is quite a bit more involved than disbudding a kid and, from what I've read, it's pretty hit and miss. Some people are thrilled by the results and some swear they'll never do it again. My apologies for the long collection of run-on sentences.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

_I'd rather have a goat with 4 horns than one with scurs._

HAHAHA! Quote of the day right there! I'm totally with you on that one!

To the topic: I run horned and non-horned goats together and we don't have any issues. The main thing is to decide whether or not to keep horns _while the goats are newborn!_ If you wait until the horns are big, it's too late to change your mind. It's not fair to the goat to remove the horns once they're well grown in just because you couldn't decide and kept putting it off.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Speaking of flower crowns, I paint/sharpee marker my pretty white horned goats. lol Usually with pink stripes. No good reason other than I think it looks cute.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Also know that if you plan to show, dairy breeds must be disbudded. Many meat breeds actually get more points in a show with nice horns.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Dayna said:


> Speaking of flower crowns, I paint/sharpee marker my pretty white horned goats. lol Usually with pink stripes. No good reason other than I think it looks cute.


What?! Do you have any pictures of this?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Here is my curvy horned girl:










And pretty stripy horns:


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

My opinion of having horned goats...

Pros to having horns:
1. Some look better with them
2. Easy to grab horns if they don't have a collar
3. Easier not to worry about disbudding

Cons to having horns:
1. Every now and then they will get their heads stuck in a fence. But they can usually figure it out, or their horns get too big and they grow out of it.
2. When trying to worm them with no help, and too lazy to get the stand out, I will hold them between my knees so they will stay still. And they will give you some pretty colorful bruises from their horns.
3. When I have a feed bucket and they are running around me, their horns will often catch me in the legs and it doesn't feel that great.
4. Some look better without horns

All the goats I have ever owned have had horns. But if I had the option to choose, I think I would prefer polled. It just scares me to try to disbud kids on my own, so I just don't worry about it.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

GaGoats2017 said:


> 2. When trying to worm them with no help, and to lazy to get the stand out, I will hold them between my knees so they will stay still. And they will give you some pretty colorful bruises from their horns.


Never a good idea! If the goat ever pulls back and snags you in the crotch you'll be even sorrier! It's always worth taking a little extra time for safety. Take a moment to drag out the stanchion, or halter the goat and snub him to a post, or at least put one arm behind the horns and restrain him that way, but please don't put his horned head between your legs! You're probably ok doing it with a kid, but it's still better to use the stanchion.



> 3. When I have a feed bucket and they are running around me, their horns will often catch me in the legs and it doesn't feel that great.


Carry a riding crop or a squirt gun and enforce your personal space. Goats should never bump you with their horns even by accident or when excited. It's easy to take hornless goats for granted since they are generally too small and defenseless to hurt adults, but horned goats _must_ be taught good manners to be safe.


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

Damfino I'm okay with a little bruises now and then, it doesn't bother me much hahaha. That's just how I have always done it, mostly with market kids though around 30-90 lbs (those short baby horns are the worst). 

And I am the only one that has any interaction with them. For extra precaution, I keep my Border Collies close. So if they get on my nerves too much, my working girls are happy to put them back in their place lol.

Just making points for the OP to think about. Most of my issues with horns are very minor. One thing I didn't mention, they will fight each other sometimes at the end of pregnancy. So I separate them from each other once they are heavy bred, to prevent harm to the unborn kids. 

I have never had any major problems at all with horned goats.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I have dairy goats, so no horns here. Unfortunately, I have scurs on some of the Bucks. They have to be cut back periodically. 

As much trouble as my goats get into, for me, horns would be a nightmare!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Deborah Haney said:


> Horns are good for keeping goats cool in the winter, I would think they'd be especially important for lamanchas because they don't have big ears to cool them. If you live in a colder climate, however, look out - I know someone whos goat died of hypothermia because intead of coming in when it snowed to snuggle, he stayed out in the snow with wet horns and got too cold. They really lose a lot of heat from those suckers.


 I have to disagree here. Horns keep goats warmer in winter, under normal situations. But, if any goat with or without horns, remains out in very cold temps, will get hypothermia. They do not loose heat from horns only. Hypothermia will happen to the whole body, not just the horns.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Pam, I'm with you there. I'm not pushing anyone to keep horned goats if it does not suit them. But that one comment brought me up short.

There was no evidence given that the horns caused the goat to refuse to snuggle, or that a hornless goat would have snuggled. And no explanation of why wet horns were to blame for the hypothermia, rather than the entire wet body. And I've never seen a goat with wet horns but a dry/warm body. Has ANYONE seen wet horns/dry body? Our horns are the first to dry, followed by the head, then neck, then sides/flanks, and finally the back. The belly usually stays dry. Legs/hooves stay wet because they are in the wet grass and/or mud.

I'm not demanding anyone keep horns, but this offered no logical reasons to dehorn, or breed polled.

For transparency, I have a mixed herd, have in the past decided to not disbud, and am now reconsidering it. I have no agenda here.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Honestly I don't see a difference in my goats with hot or cold. We don't get super cold, our lows have been known to drop to high teens but usually mid to high 20s is about the coldest we get. 100-115 is about our normal high during the summer and they all are either laying in the shade or out and about at the same time. I know scientifically it is proven that horns cool a animal off but maybe ones body also just adjusts to not having them and goes on their way. Me personally living in a semi warm place I have no doubt I would be dead if I ever came across 0 or negative anything but there are people who can go out in that and I'm sure if I was raised or spent enough time there I would adjust to it too


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I honestly think a goat's body color has more to do with how well they handle heat than any other factor. Also consider that while a goat's horns radiate heat, they also are usually black and get very hot in the sun. This might be nice in the winter, but not so much in summer. In summer your white goats are going to be a lot more comfortable than any horned goat of a darker color. I've noticed that my packgoat with the biggest horns gets hot faster than my packgoat with smaller horns. The bigger-horned goat has jet black hair on his back and hindquarters while the smaller-horned goat is a roan color with lots of white hair mixed in.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

What you say makes sense, Damfino. But then how do we explain white horned, white coated, white/pinkish skinned Saanens being an alpine breed?

Not Alpine, the breed, but alpine, connected to the Alps. (clarification only)

A lot of animals that normally live in temperate, arctic, or Antarctic climes, or high altitude climes, either are white, including humans, or turn white in the winter, like the arctic fox.

Yes, part of it must be camouflage, part of it must be needing reception of more sun (as in the case of humans) But some animals are always light (polar bears), some are always dark (musk ox), and some change according to time of life (seals) and some change according to the seasons (arctic fox or snowy owl)

There must be more to this than dark=warmer, light=cooler.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I always see my goats out in the really hot sun and ask myself, how can they do that?
Horns are their bodies' radiators for removing heat, it allows them to regulate their heat and temperature ect.


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## Jaeih (Sep 27, 2017)

All of my goats were disbudded before I bought them. However, the buck has scurs from a botched disbudding, and one of my wethered kids has a single horn/scur growing from his head. I think those two would look better with their horns than they do after being disbudded.

We have no plans to disbud any future kids. We're not willing to do it ourselves, and we don't want to have a vet do it.


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## Deborah Haney (Jul 11, 2017)

How can a goat avoid losing heat from it's horns? Not trying to argue - honest question. With the horns away from it's body heat and blood coursing through them, how do horns "keep them warm in the winter"?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Deborah Haney said:


> How can a goat avoid losing heat from it's horns? Not trying to argue - honest question. With the horns away from it's body heat and blood coursing through them, how do horns "keep them warm in the winter"?


 They can constrict or expand the vessels to regulate blood flow and thus the cooling or heating effects.


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## Deborah Haney (Jul 11, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> They can constrict or expand the vessels to regulate blood flow and thus the cooling or heating effects.


Ah. I did not know that


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Biology, is way cool!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

mariarose said:


> What you say makes sense, Damfino. But then how do we explain white horned, white coated, white/pinkish skinned Saanens being an alpine breed?
> 
> Not Alpine, the breed, but alpine, connected to the Alps. (clarification only)
> 
> ...


I would not compare domestic animals with wild ones. The wild animals you describe all need camouflage to either hunt successfully or avoid being killed. Saanens, however, are a domestic goat that has been purposely bred for generations to be white. Toggenburgs, Oberhaslis, and Alpines all come from the same regions (Alps) and are bred to express dark colors. I think those things come down more to human preference than anything to do with adapting to climate. Domestic goats (particularly dairy breeds) don't generally live in the elements and haven't for centuries, so we can't really discuss adaptation to their environment like we can with wild animals. I simply observed that my black-backed goat with big horns starts panting long before his lighter-coated herd mates without them.


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