# Well water and copper/selenium absorption



## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

Looking for a little advice on keeping my goats in top shape. Our well water is very hard, Sulphur smelling and tons of iron. Even doing a copper bolus every 3 months, my goats just don't seem to be at 100% -maybe 75%.

The boluses are a challenge as well, some with take a bolus with gun, some I have to mix with banana, another peanut butter....blah blah blah...15 goats is a pain!

Yes they have good loose minerals, nice hay, ration with boss, and alfalfa pellets-I think it's the water quality I am fighting.

Can I does more often, or in higher doses? Should I increase my selenium, is that effected by the water? 

Any tips appreciated!


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I'm following because I have the same issue!! I'm now using a bolus gun instead of giving with treats/topdressing just in case there is something to be said about it getting in the right spot and whatnot.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Wow, I had never even thought about that. Maybe that's why when I give my goats copper it seems it doesn't help all that much....


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You may want to copper bolus monthly. You will have to play around with dose.


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

thanks - if the copper is slow absorbing, should I not increase the dose rather than doing it more often?


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

We have well water that is pretty hard, I find I need to give copper every 3 to 4 months. I also Increase the recommended dose, but only by 1 or 2g depending on the goat. 
I don't know about selenium though, I just give the gel every 30 days as well as supplement with kelp and minerals(my minerals don't contain copper because I also have sheep) and everyone seems to be doing fine with that.


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

MoonShadow said:


> We have well water that is pretty hard, I find I need to give copper every 3 to 4 months. I also Increase the recommended dose, but only by 1 or 2g depending on the goat.
> I don't know about selenium though, I just give the gel every 30 days as well as supplement with kelp and minerals(my minerals don't contain copper because I also have sheep) and everyone seems to be doing fine with that.


Thanks Moonshadow -can I ask what the name of the gel is and where you get it?


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## FascinatingLady (Mar 6, 2016)

My well water tested pretty near perfect. I tested it especially when I got goats. The ph was good, no nitrates, and not much hardness either.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

You can up the dose if you want that way you don't have to fight with them as often. I know the 4grams that everyone gives adults would not do anything for my goats......also hard water so every 3-4 months I give 9 grams (I make my own boluses) right across the board. It would take me days to make everyone their own bolus so that's how I do it now. Most of my does are 150-200 any ways so even the 150 pound goats get enough for 200 pounds. I get the small calf balling gun and the boluses I pick up fit perfect and they have no choice it gets shoved down their throat and their head lifted so they can't hack it back up, although I do have one that is pretty good about hacking it up from the fourth stomach I swear lol so she doesn't get to put her head down till she swallows a few times


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

lol, good on ya Jessica! Do you buy the cow boluses and break them down? Where do you get the capsules to make them? I'm not much of a druggy, so wouldn't know where to look :laugh:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Hey now I'm not much of a druggy either  but yes I buy the cattle ones then get a box cutter and cut a small hole, dump it on a folder pie elf paper and fill the empty capsules.........FYI the capsules hold 9grams so I don't even weigh them any more lol just fill up but here is what I get 

This is the copper I get
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail...-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5&gas=Copper bolus

Here is smaller amount of copper but what I get is cheaper in the long run just a lot of money at once

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail...-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5&gas=Copper bolus

Empty capsules (get the smallest ones they have and they are perfect for adult goats. I have used them on as young as 6 months.....boers but probably wouldn't go any smaller then that)

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e07699-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5

And a balling gun but I get mine from tractor supply simply because when it breaks I usually can't wait to order it lol

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=e5a7ace3-9e6c-444a-87ed-10149aa49d22&gas=Balling gun

But that's my copper supplies lol


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

Thanks for those links! I will have to adjust for my goats as they weigh 30-50lbs max. Valleyvet is US which gets really expensive with cross border duty and exchange.
I am going to be driving across NY this weekend, do feed stores or TSC carry it on the shelf anywhere? I can't seem to find it online....same goes for selenium gel...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

TSC does not carry them.


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

Redbarngoatfarm said:


> Thanks Moonshadow -can I ask what the name of the gel is and where you get it?


You're welcome.  
This is the stuff I use.

http://www.amazon.com/Durvet-Sheep-...8&qid=1461112266&sr=8-1&keywords=selenium+gel


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## jaimn (May 16, 2015)

Thank you for posting this thread! I had wondered the same thing about the water, and wondered if I should give copper more often. My goats' tails are feathering out, and I keep thinking "but I just gave them copper 2 months ago!". Now I know it's safe to do more doses a year, according to when they need them. :hi5:

I have also asked locals about the BOSE, and can't do the selenium gel as our area is soo deficient, so I have to buck up and give shots all around this weekend when the weather cools down for goat wrangling.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

What about a filter on the faucet you use for water?


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

NyGoatMom said:


> What about a filter on the faucet you use for water?


I do have a carbon filter rigged up, but I don't think it helps that much -I should get the water tested....


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I looked up filters not too long ago, and for iron it looked like it would be in the thousands to actually take care of the issue... Or you can filter it per gallon which is, well, pretty impossible for multiple goats.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

jaimn said:


> Thank you for posting this thread! I had wondered the same thing about the water, and wondered if I should give copper more often. My goats' tails are feathering out, and I keep thinking "but I just gave them copper 2 months ago!". Now I know it's safe to do more doses a year, according to when they need them. :hi5:
> 
> I have also asked locals about the BOSE, and can't do the selenium gel as our area is soo deficient, so I have to buck up and give shots all around this weekend when the weather cools down for goat wrangling.


Ohh  well if need be just give more of the 2 or 4 gram boluses, and yeah I wouldn't give them 9 grams lol that's even above my comfort level lol what are you dosing your goats at right now?
And the selenium I don't know about. The only thing I can tell you is I have a fear of ODing mine on it but after having signs of my goats needing it (kids born with weak ankles) I started giving Bose to my goats and tiny, who is like your explaining with your goats just never looked 100% looked soooo much better after she got a shot.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Iron binds to minerals and hinders their absorption. Id think you could bolus as needed cause they are not going to over do it. If you have a water softener for the house, there should be a place after the softener you can hook a hose up to. OR if the softener is cleaning the whole house including the outdoor hydrants, you might try running a hose from there to water the goats. If you dont have a softener, try craigslist. I got a very nice one for half price and only cost me a 100.00 to have a plumber tie into it. Woulda been no coast there if it were copper pipe but its was that new trax pipe or what ever. Now keep in mind, if you do or will get a softener and have high iron in your water. The iron will also bind to the beads in the softener and make it ineffective. There is a chemical that softener places sell that you use to clean iron off the beads.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Sounds like the same issue I deal with...horrid hard sulfur water...I hate giving copper so often..I rather fix the issue..but short of moving Im not sure how to fix it :veryangry:

its been suggested we get a whole house filtering system since we buy tons of water from a local filtering company...he told us it will cost about 800 to install our own off our well..not sure how much more it will cost to run it to all water....how often we would need to replace the filter ect..but We are looking into it. This is different then a water softening...


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## jaimn (May 16, 2015)

Jessica84 said:


> Ohh  well if need be just give more of the 2 or 4 gram boluses, and yeah I wouldn't give them 9 grams lol that's even above my comfort level lol what are you dosing your goats at right now?
> And the selenium I don't know about. The only thing I can tell you is I have a fear of ODing mine on it but after having signs of my goats needing it (kids born with weak ankles) I started giving Bose to my goats and tiny, who is like your explaining with your goats just never looked 100% looked soooo much better after she got a shot.


Hi! I get the 50#(2g) doses to most my herd; only one gets the 100# (4g)dose. I break them open to mix; I made PB&J sandwiches once, which the adults liked and the kids thought were poison, lol. Last time I mixed the pills with Molly's Herbal Wormer - I usually make treat balls with peanut butter, jelly, an egg, flour, and the herbal mix. 
I would not increase the size of the bolus, just give it more often, like when I see that they need it instead of waiting for a scheduled time. Vet just called and said that I have a high worm load, so looks like tomorrow they will be getting copper and whatever the nice people at the feed store recommend (as they have a ton more goats than I do!). 
For the BoSe, I would rather try to prevent problems, rather than wait for weak kids, now that I know. I've always read about Bose, but didn't look any further. Finally asked three goat mentors and they all use it; one is holistic, one uses chemicals that I wouldn't, and the third is a nice middle.

Always something new to learn!!


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

These are goat-sized copper boluses from Santa Cruz Biotechnology in CA. Much less fuss than fiddling around with empty capsules and breaking down cow sized capsules.

http://www.scbt.com/datasheet-363568-ultracruz-goat-copper-bolus.html

I used to stress with a bolus gun and at least half the time the goats would end up spitting them out or crunching them. Here's how I do it now: 
With a very sharp knife, cut the needle end off a 6ml syringe so the full diameter of the syringe is open. You cut it right at the shoulder where it begins to taper down to the needle mounting point.
pull the plunger all the way open and put a little molasses into the bottom of the syringe. Then empty the copper out of the capsule onto the molasses and put a little more molasses on top. 
stick the syringe in the side of the animal's mouth as far back as you can and plunge away. They'll crunch a few rods, big deal. They like the molasses and will readily swallow the bulk of the copper without chewing it.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I have heard bad things about Santa Cruz company though...Jill seems to know some about them.
I just use Copasure from Jeffers, but I understand with a lot of goats that would be costly. I thought about getting them like Jessica does though and breaking them down...


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I've been buying mine from Santa Cruz for years. My Nigerians get the 4g size. 
I'm sure every company out there has bad stories 
The 4g are perfect for me, the price is great and they are here within a few days


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

we bought from cruz before. then heard what jill had to say. Tested em and they were indeed copper. Used them on all our animals and for the first time ever, all our animals got copper tails... not sure if it was their bodies going, OH ya, we need more copper or if there was just something odd about that copper that triggered it. We just use multimin 90 now and forgo all the hassle.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

So you use only multimin 90 and don't bolus? How often do you give it?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Copper*



TDG-Farms said:


> Iron binds to minerals and hinders their absorption. Id think you could bolus as needed cause they are not going to over do it. If you have a water softener for the house, there should be a place after the softener you can hook a hose up to. OR if the softener is cleaning the whole house including the outdoor hydrants, you might try running a hose from there to water the goats. If you dont have a softener, try craigslist. I got a very nice one for half price and only cost me a 100.00 to have a plumber tie into it. Woulda been no coast there if it were copper pipe but its was that new trax pipe or what ever. Now keep in mind, if you do or will get a softener and have high iron in your water. The iron will also bind to the beads in the softener and make it ineffective. There is a chemical that softener places sell that you use to clean iron off the beads.


Think it's called pecks, not sure on spelling, but instead of copper pipes its a plastic material.
I know this isn't the point of this thread, but we got the pecks in our house and we loved it! Very quiet! The place we are in now doesn't have it and it's so loud!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

We use it 2 to 4 times a year depending upon the animal.


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## ctopal (Jul 8, 2015)

Could someone please post a picture of how a tail looks, that shows copper is needed? Or be really descriptive for me, thanks! I think I better check my well water.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The very tip of the tail gets bald. In turn making the tail resemble that of a fish. This is kinda an extreme case and a picture I found off the web just by doing a search for fish tails in goats


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Santa Cruz has repeated multiple animal cruelty charges against them, not stories USDA action, including goats with broken bones, abscesses, lack of medical care, etc.

https://awionline.org/content/information-santa-cruz-biotechnology-inc

http://aldf.org/press-room/press-re...-against-animal-research-lab-in-santa-cruz-2/

http://www.all-creatures.org/blog/institutionalized-animal-cruelty-lab-santa-cruz-biotech-20130114/


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

Thanks for all the great info -I have never been able to rid of all my fishtails! Any one know how long it should take to fill back in with proper copper? I would think 6 weeks or so??

These pics are 4 weeks after I coppered my goats -not very much change -they each got 2grams and weighed about 40 pounds at the time...I am going to double their doses tis weekend...


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## FascinatingLady (Mar 6, 2016)

What about the Mohawk coat? What do I look for? My goats have cotton tail patches that are like grey and brown mix, but underneath the hair is black. That is normal, right? I have also noticed hair on spine does not stay flat. They were born March 1st and weigh 25 pounds. Should I bolus them with 2 grams now?


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## ctopal (Jul 8, 2015)

Thanks for the pics!


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

My goats have "mohawks" too, I think most goats do... Never heard it was a copper issue. It lays down when they're chilled out but raises when they're wound up, like a dog.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The fish tails can take up to a year to grow back and if the hair follicles are too damaged, sometimes they are never quite right. There are other ways of judging though, coat health, parasite resistance, etc.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Multimin90 for goats copper and?*



TDG-Farms said:


> We use it 2 to 4 times a year depending upon the animal.


So, do you use the product that is for cattle? How do you figure the dosing for your goats, and when to do it-what you base it on? Sorry if you have already explained all of this, but if you did you could send me the link or topic you posted it under....

Is this injectable or ?

Do you do this instead of the copper bolus?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Multimin 90 is an injectable you can only get through a vet due to the selenium. I believe the UK has something like Mineral Max but thats just a vague thought in my head and not sure if its right. Here it is on valleyvet.com

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail...&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=[ADL]%20[Non-Brand]%20[EC]%20[US]%20Division%20-%20Farm%20-%20Livestock%20Rx%20%28Broad%29&utm_term=%2Bmultimin%20%2B90&utm_content=MultiMin%2090&kwid=589539f82a3e4d55930d5b783f1835cf

It gives dosing instructions. Unlike most things given to goats, dosing of multimin 90 is as suggested on the label.

As many have heard me preach on not using oxide or sulfate based minerals, you will notice that the bases in multimin 90 are those. Thats ok as we are not taking about oral ingestion. Regardless of IM or SQ, the body is force to absorb it. We give babies it SQ. This way its less painful and is a slower slightly less effective way vs. IM. Adults we give it IM. Warning though. Its painful. So once you give it, and give the injection site a few quick rubs, quickly unlock the animal from a fitting / milking stand as some tend to be very melodramatic.


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

Thanks for the links to the Santa Cruz lawsuit. I'm done with THEM...


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