# New here and new to goats



## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Yes, my husband and I are new to the world of goats and I am sure we have already made some mistakes, well, one at least for sure. If I may tell you what we have and have done could maybe some of you more experienced goat owners help advise us? TIA!
1. We bought our goats off of craigslist, this is my admitted mistake. They were not tested nor are we entirely positive on how old they are. She told us that they were about 4 month olds (unrelated nubians, one buck one doe). I weighed them and the male was 26 pounds and the female was 32 pounds. We have had them about a month and now she is 45 pounds and he is 32 pounds. She looks pregnant but I don't know how that would be as she wasn't old enough to go into heat yet? I have wormed them with safe-guard- the liquid white stuff.

2. They have 3/4 of an acre of desert brush land with lots of palo verde trees and other bushes to munch on. I also feed them alfafa hay and pellets. The boy hasn't been eating the pellets very well this past week so I started giving hay again for him. He definitely likes the hay better. They have 6 ft vinyl ranch fencing with smaller wire around their area. They have a goat shed to sleep in at night. It is quite large.

3. I have finally found where to get the three tests done and am just waiting for the red collection vials to come in the mail. As soon as we get the all clear there we may be adding a properly bred and tested female from excellent lines. 

4. My husband and I feel like feeding straight alfafa would be the best and not supplementing with grain. The previous owner was feeding both goats sweet feed which I have read as being not good for the male, correct? We are also unsure about any vaccinations but again, I am not sure that we would want to vaccinate.

Please give us any advice you have and pointers. Why has my female gained so much to where she now looks pregnant and my male has hardly gained anything? How old could they be? They still seem very short to me for being nubians but they do have the head and body of nubians.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Four months old is old enough to get pregnant ... but is not ideal. 8 months is still on the young side to breed. Watch her closely and have a vet on call just in case. I would separate her and the buck and buy a companion for the buck and for her. A wether for the buck, and a wether or doe for your girl.

The buck should have a balanced calcium/phosphorus diet. If he is getting alfalfa hay, he should be getting a different kind of grain. If he is getting alfalfa pellets, he should be getting grass hay. An all alfalfa diet could put him at risk for UC. It's a bit complicated and I'm still figuring it out, but other breeders on here should be able to help you with that.

I'm going to send you to a site that is a LIFESAVER when it comes to goat information: http://fiascofarm.com/


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Welcome to TGS! :wave:

You do need to separate the male and female and find them companions so they won't be lonely. The female should be at least 8 months old and of a good weight before being bred. If she is pregnant, then you will need to keep a good eye on her and be there for the birth with a vet just a call away if needed.

You can have the female pregnancy tested at BioTracking using a blood sample or find out if they do pregnancy testing where you plan to use for the other tests.

I would suggest finding a good goat vet. Have fecals done before worming. You want to be sure that you are deworming with the proper drug so resistance isn't built up. Most people only worm when there is a problem and not on some type of schedule but you will have to decide what works for you.

If your goats are eating a lot of browse, then feeding the alfalfa hay is probably fine. Especially your male needs a ratio of 2:1 (or even a little higher like 2.5:1) of calcium to phosphorus and this is for the entire diet.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with Keren and Welcome to TGS, we are glad you are here. :wave:


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Thanks all! I do have a goat vet found already, that took a couple of weeks in itself...not too many of those around are there.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

We are getting them health tested and if they pass their health tests then we will for certain be getting another doe. We are unsure if we are going to keep the buck. Bucks seem to be a lot of work? I know that there is a wealth of information on this site but I am finding it overwhelming. I do not know what is meant by the ratios of calcium to phosphorus. What is the best feed for goats, at least in the grass variety. Like I said, we aren't inclined to feed sweet feed, is that the same as feeding grain? If anyone would just flat out tell me what they feed and how much and why, especially if it is without the corn mixed in it, I would be eternally grateful. I am just overwhelmed at this point. We are working with a goat farmer (?) who raises champion nubians and he just feeds his males alfalfa hay and pellets so that is why I thought that was fine. They don't even have a pasture to turn out at all, just dirt.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I would rehome the buck. The does are enough to concentrate on when you're starting off. :thumb:


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm working on it. I'm all for rehoming him but I want to make sure he is healthy first to see what any new goats could be exposed to in our herd. My dh is leaning towards keeping him so we don't have to hire out a male come breeding time... Today I am working on getting some fencing up to get them separated at least.-they wouldn't be able to breed through chainlink would they?


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Wait wait, could the pellets be considered 'grain'? and if I find like a weed hay or would bermuda hay be a good combination? And what the heck is loose mineral?  I really am trying. If we are going to have animals I am determined to feed them right and treat them well with proper care.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Loose minerals come in a bag and are marked goat minerals  You can buy them at most local farm stores. If it were me, and the buck was of an excelent quality, I'd keep him. We offer all of our animals, ESPECIALLY the young ones grain at a high protein %. It'll help them grow well.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Ok, so I checked with a couple of hay stands and they come in: all alfalfa, all bermuda, an alfalfa bermuda mix, and an alfalfa bermuda and grass mix. Plus cow hay. What would be the best?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Quality always makes a difference but I personally buy alfalfa/grass mix hay so I would suggest one of the mixes. As long as it is not moldy and looks good. I would suggest to buy a bale and see how your goats eat it along with breaking it apart and looking at it yourself. Good hay usually smells kind of like tea.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

So, after hanging out at a lot of goat forums and blogs and breeder sites, I am not longer sure that my buck is really a buck and not a wether(sp?). He has a sack but it is skinny, like a broom handle and if he does have testicles it is only one and small. Does this sound normal for a 4-5 month old buck or more like a wether? He came along for free with our doe because he was/is extremely attached to her. Anyone care to help me out with this? lol


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Attaching a picture may be helpful.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Did this work?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

We can see it but can you get a closer straight on picture?


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

I will have to in the morning then  With him being black, the straight on pic is really hard to see anything. That is all it looks like though. Just straight up to where it attaches. there is no bulging or anything from any other angle.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

It does look a bit like a prune. :laugh: I would guess one testicle, but I can't be sure. I would have him wethered for sure, with one testicle and at that age he can make the girl pregnant and that would be dangerous.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Welcome to the forum and to the world of goats! All the info out there can be overwhelming at first, but taking care of goats is a lot simpler than some people make it. You don't need to know a lot to start. I'll cover the basics, bucks first since you asked specifically about them.

Bucks: Taking care of a buck is quite simple. To prevent *urinary calculi, all you need to do is supplement the buck's diet with either ammonium chloride* (found in some feeds and minerals, or purchasable alone) *or apple cider vinegar* (a half teaspoon mixed in the daily feed or water). Either one will completely prevent UC, and then you don't have to worry about grain or Ca/P ratios.

General: The three elements of the food you should be giving your goats are hay/pasture/browse, grain/pellets, and minerals.

Hay/pasture/browse: Goats love: blackberry canes, honeysuckle, grass (pretty much any kind is safe), garden herbs, and most common weeds such as plantain, dandelion, wood sorrel, and clover. The bigger the variety the better.
Poisonous: Some ornamental shrubs, wild azalea, privet, certain nightshades, perilla mint, pokeweed. There are more, but those are the biggest ones in my area.
You don't need to worry too much about a mildly poisonous plant here and there, just make sure the majority of the plants are safe and get rid of the most dangerous ones.
Next, mixed-grass hay, sericea lespedeza, or alfalfa is fine. It shouldn't be moldy or have a high percentage of fescue, which can sometimes cause problems in pregnant goats. Give them as much hay as they want (unless they get fat).

Grain: Whole or cracked grain, sweet feed, or all-stock feed is fine for goats.
My rule of thumb for grain/feed for any goat is: feed as little as you can get by with. The bulk of their diet should be browse, pasture, and/or hay. Only feed enough grain/feed to keep them from getting skinny (and, in the case of dairy does, to keep their production up). Grain/feed is not the greatest for their digestion. In fact, if the hay/pasture/browse is good enough, they may not need any grain at all.

Minerals: Offer them a loose goat mineral (with copper in it) free choice. No sheep minerals (sheep can't tolerate much copper and goats NEED it).

Worming: The biggest problem goats have is worms. If you're not concerned about doing things naturally, simply have the goats fecal tested like 2-4 times a year, and chemically worm them if they need it. It is easy to do your own fecal tests following the instructions on Fias Co Farm.

About copper: Partly due to chemical farming, copper is woefully deficient in most soils. Copper is _absolutely essential_ to goats' health. Copper deficient goats are more prone to worm infestations, hoof rot, birthing problems, and all communicable diseases.
The copper included in the loose mineral may or may not be enough for your particular situation. If your goats have hooked hairs, or a rusty-tinged, rough coat, then they are copper deficient (and may also have worms). Extra copper will have to be given. Too much copper is toxic. A safe way to supplement copper is giving copper oxide wire particles, AKA copper bolus, orally, once every few months. These tiny rods settle in the stomach and slowly dissolve. Instructions for copper bolusing goats can be found here.

In summary:
Bucks and wethers need ammonium chloride or apple cider vinegar.
All goats need good pasture, browse, and/or hay, supplemented with only enough grain to keep them from getting skinny.
All goats need a good loose mineral available 24/7.
All goats need some kind of worming system.
All goats need sufficient copper.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Wow, a lot of replies since I started working on that post. 
Can you feel anything inside the scrotum? If it is almond size or smaller, and if he is not very stinky or hlala:, then he was probably wethered with a burdizzo.
If you can't feel anything at all in there, then his testicles probably never descended - which, unfortunately, makes him a very bad candidate for a breeding buck because he will pass the genes to his babies.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Wow milkmaid. Thank you so very much for putting it all together for me! You really just helped me figure it out! I am such a -lay it out all in front of me- type person that this was the way my brain needed to see things to be able to process everything. Thank you so much! As far as his 'manlies' go, I'm guessing he is a singular swinger (one testicle). What I can feel in there is probably the size of a dove egg? So a bit bigger than an almond, though, not much.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh, and thank you to everyone. This really is a wonderful forum with really great information! I am so happy that I found you!


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## Farmgirl675 (Oct 21, 2010)

Well first off Welcome to wonderful crazy world of goats!

For your "male", best to have the vet check him out. He will be able to tell you what is going on there. If you definitely feel at least feel one testicle then know that he COULD breed your girl...they are not "too young" it could happen. 

As for the feeding portion......take a deep breath it's not that complicated. You most certainly can raise them without any grain at all, I feed absolutely none and mine are happy and healthy. Since the ones you have are young and growing I would feed them the alfalfa mix hay you said you could get, make sure it is clean and "fresh" smelling (as someone stated it kinda smells like tea). Did they happen to tell you which cutting the hay was (1st,2nd,ect), if you have a choice I would get 2nd, if not then just make sure it is a good leafy hay and not a bunch of stalks (it should feel kinda soft verses coarse and pokey). I would make sure they have it available 24/7 along with whatever browse you have.

For the minerals...they don't HAVE to be goat minerals, cattle minerals containing copper are just fine, if you know your area is selenium deficient then you can get that in it also. They should be loose minerals and can be found at tractor supply, most feed stores or any "ag supply" type store in your area. make sure it is minerals and not trace mineral salt. I offer loose salt for mine also. If they don't seem to be very interested in the minerals then I have found that sprinkling a little cinnamon on the then makes them "smell good" and generally they will start eating them. They won't eat tons so don't freak if they seem to just nibble once in awhile. 

Lastly clean water 24/7, some goaties are kinda particular about temp and smell so just make sure they are drinking it. I have one who swears if a lea falls in the water it is no longer fit for consumption....had the same leaf landed on the ground she would have ate it before anyone else had a chance:shrug:

hope that helps!! I know all the info out there can make ones head spin!


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

milkmaid said:


> Welcome to the forum and to the world of goats! All the info out there can be overwhelming at first, but taking care of goats is a lot simpler than some people make it. You don't need to know a lot to start. I'll cover the basics, bucks first since you asked specifically about them.
> 
> Bucks: Taking care of a buck is quite simple. To prevent *urinary calculi, all you need to do is supplement the buck's diet with either ammonium chloride* (found in some feeds and minerals, or purchasable alone) *or apple cider vinegar* (a half teaspoon mixed in the daily feed or water). Either one will completely prevent UC, and then you don't have to worry about grain or Ca/P ratios.
> 
> ...


Great info, thanks Millkmaid!!


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

You're welcome!  I added a paragraph about copper because that mineral is so important and so often deficient.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I still believe that even if you supplement your bucks with ammonium chloride or apple cider vinegar, you should still be mindful of giving them the correct ca: p ratio. It is not difficult to do, and I just dont think you should get 'lax' and over confident just because you supplement AC or ACV. To my mind it would be like getting your child vaccinated against chicken pox and then letting them rub their skin on a child with chicken pox. Why put them at risk? They are not miracle cures. Also I would strongly suggest AC plus ACV not just ACV on its own, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence regarding ACV but there has been no scientific research done to indicate that it prevents calculi, whereas AC is a proven scientific method. The benefit of ACV though is that not only do goats like the taste but it also keeps the water clean, both things encourage the boys to drink more water which is important in preventing stones.


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## goatsntoads (Oct 7, 2008)

He doesn't look like he has been properly burdizzoed or is a cryptorchid that shouldn't be bred. Ask your breeder friend or the vet you found for help in the ball dept.

Now this is all an opinion, but I hope it helps with your questions...
So for feeding, the boys in general need very little "grain" because they aren't working hard. However while an animal is growing or producing you need to give some "concentrate" to support them. I like Purina Goat Chow, but there are others that work well too. For now I would be giving them each about 1 cup a day of a goat grain ration and a good helping of hay. I have used alfalfa/grass mix, grass, oat, and weedy pasture grass over the years. Every hay contains different nutrient values so you will need to work that out by watching how much is left at the end of the day. You want a little left over, but not a ton of waste. I don't ever feed straight alfalfa because it can get you into trouble with ca: p ratios and depending on how leafy can be too "hot" and cause digestive troubles. People do use it, but I'd rather avoid issues.
I always offer the Meat Maker Loose Goat Mineral and baking soda. The mineral is awesome for skin/coat and lessens disease because the animals are healthier to begin with. The baking soda is like goat tums. If they eat too much green pasture or over do it on something they will treat their tummy with it naturally.

I vaccinate with the CD-T because I breed and sell my animals. In a tiny closed herd it's more up to you. I deworm with ivermectin paste.

I would send out blood like you are planning before bringing more animals into the herd, that is a good plan.

That should help you with them for now, but once you get to breeding and milking it's a whole new world!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

In summary:
Bucks and wethers need ammonium chloride or apple cider vinegar.
All goats need good pasture, browse, and/or hay, supplemented with only enough grain to keep them from getting skinny.
All goats need a good loose mineral available 24/7.
All goats need some kind of worming system.

Good run down. I would add to this that the buck/wether could be grown out and be kept fit on beet pulp instead of grain. This has a proper CA/PH ratio and with mixed hay or grass hay with alfalfa pellets will provide balance and all the carbs he needs.


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## zubbycat (Oct 14, 2012)

Wow, this is an awesome thread for me being a newbie too! Question - why should the minerals be loose instead of a trace mineralized block?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

zubbycat said:


> Wow, this is an awesome thread for me being a newbie too! Question - why should the minerals be loose instead of a trace mineralized block?


The goats usually eat the loose minerals better, and the mineral blocks sometimes have stuff in it that the goats don't need. A good block isn't a bad thing, but loose minerals are just better for goats in general. Picky creatures that they are.


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## Grannygoose (Sep 26, 2012)

Welcome! :hi5: Wow Look at all this wonderful information! GREAT Forum!


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## zubbycat (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks! I was thinking I'd build a creep feeder for my goat, do I could put loose minerals in there.


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

goathiker said:


> . I would add to this that the buck/wether could be grown out and be kept fit on beet pulp instead of grain. This has a proper CA/PH ratio and with mixed hay or grass hay with alfalfa pellets will provide balance and all the carbs he needs.


Im quite sure beet pulp has a really high calcium to phosphorus ratio, so I'm thinking its not a good choice for weathers.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Beet pulp is actually higher in calcium than alfalfa ... it would need to be balanced out.


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

HamiltonAcresBoers said:


> If it were me, and the buck was of an excelent quality, I'd keep him. .


If he isn't excellent quality, wether him and keep him!

For beginners (especially me) bucks are too much trouble -- I'd much rather borrow a good one once a year. Don't keep an intact buck if he is closely related to your doe - more trouble than worth with escape artists.


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## neubunny (Nov 7, 2012)

..." It shouldn't be moldy or have a high percentage of fescue, which can sometimes cause problems in pregnant goats. "

More info please! I know we have fescue in the pasture!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The problem with fescue is whether or not it has been treated with endorphins. Most endorphin treated seed is escaped from lawns and farm pathways where it was planted before they knew better. We have a similar problem here with rye grass as well as fescue. 
You can take a sample of your grass to the county extention service to get it tested. After you ask if endorphins in fescue is a problem in your state, of course. Looking at Bing, Creeping Red Fescue and Tall Fescue are the main culpits in Michigan.


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