# SOS!! New goat hurting my children!



## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

We got a new ND doe in milk a week ago. We haven't been that impressed by her but, she was free so I didn't expect too much. However..... I was told that she was bottle raised by a two year old and was super sweet with kids. Her previous owner had five kids. I have a three year old and a one year old, and if the weather is nice we spend all day outside with the goats, so it's important that my daughters are safe with them. We have had no problems with our goats, even our dam raised doelings that had never been handled until we got them. 

Last week, our new doe butted my three year old onto the ground. The doe was in the goat house, my daughter walked in, and the doe butted her down as soon as she crossed the threshhold. (Side note, the new doe won't let any of our other goats into the goat house, either.) I was upset about it, but figured it was because she was adjusting and scared.

Today I noticed her following my one year old around, very closely. I thought that was strange, it looked like she was sniffing her diaper so I kinda thought maybe the one year old needed to be changed or something, but as I got up to walk over the doe sharply turned in front of the one year old and butted her down! So I rushed over, gave the doe a shove, and brought my one year old to a different part of the yard. The doe followed, and the second I set the one year old down she rushed again! Hair standing up along her spine, head down! So I smacked her side and took the one year old inside. I texted my "goat mentor" and she told me she was testing her boundaries and I need to hit her with a broomstick if she tries it again, but she knows this particular doe and she is not aggressive. 

Fast forward to just now...my three year old was playing outside with some stuffed animals and the doe goes towards her, hair raised, unprovoked, head down. I stepped in and smacked her on the nose, saying "no" firmly. She circles around me and goes towards my three year old again. I hit her in the nose again and put her away. I'm still a little shaken up by it and....I don't know, maybe this is just normal and all of our other goats are just extremely well mannered or something but this is NOT okay with me. Has this ever happened to anyone else? How did you handle it? Can her attitude be trained out of her or is this a reason to move her on to someone else? I'm not cool with having an animal in the backyard that my kids can't socialize with. Half of the reason we have mini goats is so that our kids can handle them.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Since you are there to supervise, I think a shock collar would be of great use in your situation. Then she could be punished as soon as she started being aggressive without you having to be the bad guy. By punishing her as soon as she thinks about butting without seeming to do anything her mind will start avoiding even the thought of butting the kids.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Just a normal dog shock collar?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, a normal dog shock collar. If her fur is thick, shave the little bit where the prongs rest against her skin and put it on snug enough it won't move around.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks! We'll give that a try.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Sounds like she hasn't learned any respect. That can be a problem with bottle babies, sometimes they just have no fear or respect of people. If she was raised by someone who taught her boundaries, she probably would not act that way. Sounds like she's been allowed to get her way so she thinks she's the boss. Don't trust her with your kids. She's probably trying to establish a pecking order. Keep the kids away from her or keep her penned separately or find a new home for her. She probably would be able to be taught, but is it worth the trouble? If you do want to work with her. Every time she starts to even think about going after the kids, give her a good wack across the face and move her feet. A stick or crop...something to give you some extension would be best. Don't be afraid to be forceful. That is unacceptable and dangerous behavior. She needs to learn those are the herd queen's babies and she better not mess with them. Offer praise and petting when she is being respectful and nice. I would not offer her any treats or grain out of your hand as that only teaches them to come into your space more.


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## Summersun (Apr 24, 2014)

I agree with the shock collar. When you step in she still sees herself as higher in the ranking than the babies. Because the babies cannot defend themselves. So the shock collar would be good because she won't know it's coming from you. She will probably think it's coming from the babies, therefore stopping the behavior.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Maybe this has something to do with why she was free...

I would not let the kids around her for at least a month. She does need time to adjust to her surroundings and establish a pecking order with the other goats.

She also needs to learn that people are the boss and what behavior is acceptable. 

I think that in this case a shock collar is probably a good idea as suggested above. She's probably practiced this bad behavior for quite some time and needs adequate punishment to change her mind. 

I don't know if I'd trust her ever.

Some goats are better as stew...if you choose not to keep her make sure the buyer doesn't have kids and knows she can't be trusted.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks everyone, I will talk to my husband about it and see what he wants to do. I have a feeling he'd rather not buy a shock collar and try to train her, I think he'd rather sell her and be done with it, but we'll see. My philosophy with animals is that if I can't trust them around my kids, they're not for our family. We've rehomed dogs before for that reason, it's just not worth the risk in my opinion. I don't want my kids to be afraid of the goats and my three year old already told me this morning that she can't go outside because the goat will push her down.  I'll give her some time and keep her separate for now, but I'm not optimistic...


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

jmez61690 said:


> My philosophy with animals is that if I can't trust them around my kids, they're not for our family. We've rehomed dogs before for that reason, it's just not worth the risk in my opinion. I don't want my kids to be afraid of the goats and my three year old already told me this morning that she can't go outside because the goat will push her down.  I'll give her some time and keep her separate for now, but I'm not optimistic...


I'm with you on this one. There was a reason she was free...you may be discovering it. And you're right -- no animal, expensive for free -- is worth risking harm to our human kiddos! I don't envy you this decision, 'cause I can see you care deeply for your goats as well. But to this outsider looking in, it seems the decision may have already been made in your heart. Wise to keep her separated in the mean time. Best wishes to you and your family!


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

top_goat said:


> I'm with you on this one. There was a reason she was free...you may be discovering it. And you're right -- no animal, expensive for free -- is worth risking harm to our human kiddos! I don't envy you this decision, 'cause I can see you care deeply for your goats as well. But to this outsider looking in, it seems the decision may have already been made in your heart. Wise to keep her separated in the mean time. Best wishes to you and your family!


Thank you for your support. Really, it means a lot. I feel like a bad "goat mom" to be thinking about selling her so quickly.... It is a hard decision. I'm still not 100% sure that's what I want to do, but she is in milk so maybe I'll continue milking her and give her a little time, and if it doesn't turn around we'll find her a new home that is more experienced and doesn't have small children. We'll see.

I contacted her previous owner today and talked to her about it. She said that she has never acted that way in the past, but she also said that she had a "herd queen" that she bought at the same time who bullied her kids around and maybe my doe was just lower on the hierarchy so she didn't behave that way. Idk. I'm confused and bummed. Plus my babies are having clumpy poos today so I'm on edge because of that as well! Oh well. Back to the barn I go.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Okay, I talked more to her previous owner and she asked if she could be acting this way because she's in heat. I really don't know if that's normal or not? But I checked her back end and it looks like she is irritated in there or something, and like she has been having discharge? I've only ever seen white/clear discharge from my doelings and have never seen that red color. Is that normal? The discharge on her tail looks orange.


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## ProvidenceHill (Sep 9, 2013)

You are not a bad "goat mom", you are a good human mom! Being in heat is not a good enough excuse in my book to warrant keeping her. A Nigerian is plenty big enough to harm a child, and there are lots of good goats out there who won't be aggressive with your children. As a mom of 5 I understand your dilemma, but I think you need to cut your losses, rehome the goat, and start again. As a busy mom with littles your hands are full enough without worrying about this, and you don't want the kids to be terrified of animals (who can blame them)? Let her go.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

ProvidenceHill said:


> You are not a bad "goat mom", you are a good human mom! Being in heat is not a good enough excuse in my book to warrant keeping her. A Nigerian is plenty big enough to harm a child, and there are lots of good goats out there who won't be aggressive with your children. As a mom of 5 I understand your dilemma, but I think you need to cut your losses, rehome the goat, and start again. As a busy mom with littles your hands are full enough without worrying about this, and you don't want the kids to be terrified of animals (who can blame them)? Let her go.


Thank you, you're absolutely right. We have goats for the girls to be able to interact with, possibly getting involved in 4-h, learn valuable life lessons, etc. I had a mean horse growing up that made me afraid of horses. I don't want my kids to feel that same way.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

My philosophy is "the largest animal needs to be submissive to the smallest child." (Obviously that's a generality -- but I think the intent is clear! LOL) I agree with Providence Hill -- you're being a good human mom...and also a good goat mom, 'cause an animal left to learn hurtful behaviors is destined for abuse or the slaughter house. If you choose to re-home her and clearly make it known that she is not reliable around small children, you may be actually saving her life!!! I fostered a very large German Shepherd for a couple of months when my kids were small. We learned that this dog had one weakness -- she was not good around small kids!!! So when the foster group placed her, they placed her with a single, childless woman with the caveat that she would never be unattended with small children. The success reports that came back on that great dog were wonderful!!! You have a chance to create a success story for this goat as well...while appropriately protecting and caring for your children. Go for it girl!!! )


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

It would break my heart. But she would have a new zip code. Love my goats. But they cant hurt my niece and nephew. I also had to make a decision like this on a horse I had. Because I couldnt trust her not to charge them. I know they are two different animals but the same concept. If u cant trust them then I dont want them. Good luck on your decision.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh I'm so sorry your going threw this  I was in your shoes with a sweet doe to me but hated my son! I tried everything!!! She never did it to me so I couldn't really scold her so I had my son try to, didn't work. I even tipped her horns kinda trying to put a little fear into her, I would rather her run from us then attack him and she still went after him and I broke my toe running to get her off of him and that was the end of her being here. I ended up taking her to the sale yard and the owner bought her since she doesn't have kids. That doe was so nasty she killed 2 kids (goat) and she got shipped. I honestly wouldn't hold my breath with her  as for heat/hormones still in my book not a excuse. I have a doe that is usually very friendly but when bred she wants nothing to do with me, that's the worse my goats do over hormones.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That pooch pic looks like a pregnant doe...


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

goathiker said:


> That pooch pic looks like a pregnant doe...


Really?!?! 

I asked specifically if it was possible that she is pregnant, and was told no. She just had babies in September. Oh gosh.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Was she living with a buck? Then she could be pregnant.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> Was she living with a buck? Then she could be pregnant.


They were separated, but I was suspicious because the other goats this lady had were bred for March babies...which meant the buck was running with them at some point right after she kidded. That's why I asked her if it was possible that she could turn up pregnant and she said no. She is very wide, but she told me it was just because she had just had twins.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

She's pregnant.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Eeeeek, can you tell me how you can tell? I just tried to "bounce" her but I can't tell anything.....

Then again I can't tell if my other doe supposedly due in March is pregnant, either.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Sent a picture to my "goat mentor" that knows this doe, and she thinks it's just heat. Is that possible or should I have the vet pull blood?


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

I would draw blood and test her.


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## GodsGarden (Feb 6, 2015)

So sorry for your problems. Just a few thoughts on my part ....

I don't know if I would completely trust your goat mentor. Not trying to be mean but heat shouldn't cause your doe to be grumpy and pushy. All my does get extra lovey when they are in heat. Even my 'don't touch me' doe. Besides that heat doesn't last that long.

All the advise given has been wonderful. I personally would sell her and be completely open and honest about her problems and possibility of being bread. All the trouble just isn't worth it specially in regards to safety for children when the goats are supposed to be for their pleasure. 

Hope it works out.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

GodsGardenLamanchaGoats said:


> So sorry for your problems. Just a few thoughts on my part ....
> 
> I don't know if I would completely trust your goat mentor. Not trying to be mean but heat shouldn't cause your doe to be grumpy and pushy. All my does get extra lovey when they are in heat. Even my 'don't touch me' doe. Besides that heat doesn't last that long.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your advice! I really do appreciate it and think that's the direction we're going.

It is difficult to know who to trust. My "goat mentor" isn't the one who mentioned her being in heat being the reason for the aggression, that was her previous owner. We have one very experienced ND breeder in the area, that is who I go to for questions. She bred this doe but then sold her to the lady who I bought her from, if that makes sense. So that lady was the one who told me it wasn't possible that she was bred, maybe she's just in heat, etc. She's the one with the five kids. My "mentor" thinks maybe her kids had messed around with the doe so that now the doe dislikes children.

Even so, I don't necessarily agree with everything or follow her advice blindly. I'm just trying to navigate the goat world and learn as much as I can!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Some Kids (human type) just don't understand that you can't tease/ play rough with baby goats. It sounds like your goat may have had a less than great upbringing. I never let human kids around any animal unattended until they prove they understand animals and can be trusted with them.

Heck, a lot of adults don't understand animals and why they act the way they do! 
That said, if you can't trust your goat around your children, you might have to sell her.


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