# How is this productive for the breed?



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

My kids went to an ABGA show this past week, lots of wonderful goats from big breeders - nothing my kids goats could really compete with, but they had fun anyway! Everyone was so nice, and the goats are gorgeous! Most told me it's taken 10-20 years to get herds/show strings like that.

I'm just wondering... why is 'fat' the in thing? Basically everyone seems to flush their does. I've been told that a show doe has to stay fat, and they flush them because they really can't breed them because of the risks.
It just seems, I don't know... unappealing that they have to be so obese, and can't kid normally like other does. They can't produce unless another doe is doing the work for them?  

I am not at all down talking these people, they are awesome, and I admire how far they have come in the business. 
But, I just can't seem to understand how this is improving a breed that is already touted as being unhardy and not being easy keepers.

So help me understand how this is productive for the breed?

Our vet scalded us for having a doe on the heavy side, and couldn't get kids out of her alive. Then we lost our beloved doe this past winter to toxemia, and she was overweight. The only goats we've ever had problems with have been goats who were on the heavy side. 
This year we decided not to let any of the does who will be bred get fat, including a young doe we'll breed to kid as a young yearling. 

Show entries are down, and from what I've heard, a lot of people are losing interest because of the direction the breed is taking  It's really sad, especially since my kids are just really getting into it.


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

It's so depressing what happens in the "show world" of so many critters...it's why I don't show horses any more. When "unnatural" becomes the winning animal, it just crushes your soul.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

And it seems to happen in all species of domestic animals. It's so sad. Compare the true South African Boers with what the USA is calling Boers. What a difference!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I agree 100%, and also agree that it is showing up in EVERY breed of animal, I've seen obese dairy animals even. 
When I went to Nevada to get my new stud pup, cattle dog, all of his breeders dogs were so extremely overweight. We're talking 30lbs over what is considered on the heavy side for the breed. These are supposed to be tireless, fast, hard working dogs that can work cattle for hours and hours every day. But these dogs were probably 80 some odd pounds for a dog that should average 40-45lbs. I don't think they could even chase a cow for 1 minute, and forget about 10!

Many people have the mindset that "bigger is better", and while that is true in some cases, it is totally false in others. When I talk about how I'd like this one or that one to be bigger, 9 times out of 10 I am talking about their stature, their frame. I want them taller, longer bodied, more size to their bone, etc, not obese. 
If you can get a massive frame and great muscling on your Boer, that's wonderful, and should be something to shoot for. But when you overfeed them to the point that they are so unhealthy that they are incapable of healthy reproducing without serious risk to their, and their fetuses health, there's a hole in the bucket there. 
Just because they managed to get their goat bigger, doesn't mean it's a good thing, as you all know. 

And it's interesting to see how much the poster child for a breed changes even in just 5 years, and definitely in 30 years! For example, the Alpines in the 80's were fairly short, medium to long bodied, but they had tremendous depth of body, capacity and production. 
Compare them to the Alpines around now, and you'll find they're very tall, long and very shallow bodied, very little rumen capacity and most with lesser production, and your majority of them are all feed too much that they are even too fat and lacking dairy character.

But back to the main topic about why "fat" seems to be so common with the goats these days, sometimes it's just because they are simply overfed. These people have the money to keep their feeders stuffed at all times, all their goats get a daily grain ration, etc, and they are just simply overfed. 
Then the other times is just because people want them bigger, but it just makes them fatter.
Like with kids, they over feed them because they want them bigger (taller, etc), but they can only get as big as their genetics allow, then they start growing outward.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I just had this conversation last night :lol: 

What good is a goat if it can't perform as one? If the grid went out tomorrow, would these goats even be able to survive without their supplements and heated barns? 

It's nice to have animals that look good in the show ring, but, they should still be able to be all the things that goats are... Tough, hardy stock that can produce meat and milk on browse and seeds.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

This is a big reason why I just never had much interest in showing anything. At this point its almost just detrimental to many breeds, compared to how some looked even as little as 100 years ago.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

In the late '70's, LaManchas were the size that MiniManchas are now. They are supposed to be a small breed, not towering 200 lb animals :lol:


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## cowgirlboergoats (Apr 29, 2012)

My def. of fat is different than what some other breeders think. I do believe that we have some fats ones and they never lose weight... even with out any grain. Just grass, leaves etc. We have not flushed any of the does, however to me, that is why the goats in the older doe class that look like young kid does, but bigger, because they have never raised a kid. 
When I went to Louisville to see the NAILS show, there was some goats that I felt bad for because they were overweight. Some looked like they were going to have 4 kids in the next 2 days, when they are not bred. No wonder that they can't have any kids....


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I will admit my doe jasmine needs to be on a diet really bad her problem.is she was not bred last year but was fed like a bred doe and then has still gotten grain on top of the forage everyone else gets. That is partly my fault because I don't have some place to put 1 over weight doe when all the rest need the grain because they are bouncing back from weaning kids. I have had multiple people ask is I plan to show her anytime soon since she is in such good condition. To me it's horrible condition I am so worried about pregnancy toximia after watching Candice go threw it. I have always raised show goats so I do like a slight bit of extra condition. But last time jasmine was this big it was days before she delivered 22 pounds of triplets. What we did was wean the kids right at 8 weeks. Give the does 2 weeks without grain. Then pushed the grain hard for 4 months to get them in condition for the fair. After the fair they got grain still and we're thrown in with the buck once they were all vred. The were on hay only diets to loose weight so they could kid. At that time that's all I knew. That's what I was told to do so your show does could show and reproduce. And we only did our county fair. Now that I look back that had to be so hard on their bodies and I will never do it again. I would like to raise good show kids for 4-h or open shows and sell them without having my does in show condition. saves money on grain and I think it will make my does more productive for longer. Here is my poor fat girl that will be going to fat camp soon with my sisters doe who is also a large girl.








I still want to put atleast 20 pounds on martini and I think she will be good maybe 30. She just looks to dairy for me. She is the one here on the end.








Martini was a show doe before I got her and has show points. Her twin sister is also a show doe and stayed with the breeder. I bet her twin is 100 pounds bigger since she is in show condition.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I have one more comment even after writing that book. Just like when I showed pigs give it 5 years and things will change they always do in the show world. My sister is 3 years older then me and I remember her first year showing she had this big fat pig. He had some muscle definition but not much and he was a class winner. By the time I was about a 7 year 4-Her they wanted pigs so extreme in their muscle definition they could barely walk. They looked anerexic and had all their ribs showing because there was no fat left on their bodies. We never put fans on them because if there was a chill in the air and it was windy they would get to cold. That's when pigs started really getting the stress gene. It was amazing how many show pigs would stress out over nothing and fall over dead. Plus the meat packers didn't want show pigs so they were worth even less then market pigs because there was no fat so their meat was horrible. Once everyone picked up on how bad it was. Things started to change. Now they still don't want to much fat but the pigs sure do have more flesh. I think in 5 years fat show goats will not be as sought after since they can't reproduce. Even the super big fat bucks can get to lazy to breed. Let's hope things change a little faster then 5 years but I will not be keeping fat breeding does.

Thanks for reading book 2 as you can tell I was bigger in pigs growing up. But I sure do like my boers now.


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## Karen (Jun 22, 2010)

It is the same in just about every critter humans have decided to "show" which I disagree with on so many levels. We spend all our time telling human children looks don't matter, then encourage them to overfeed their show goat so it will "look better to the show judges" or give their poodle that stupidly over-exaggerated "show cut" that no more keeps their joints warm than it makes 'em retrieve better!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I have a doe and a buck that need to go to far camp too  but sadly they have only been on hay lol but I'm fixing my pens up where I can send the doe into the real world and eat nothing but leaves and dead grass lol
But as for the topic here lol I fully agree with you!! I have always thought too much weight is actually worse then under weight, but everyone see underweight and it's a big shame on you but overweight and you get wow that's a nice animal! A nice plump animal is eye candy. I have NEVER had a compliment on my buck when he was ok weight, now that he is on the fat side I've yet to have someone show up here asking when I was going to sell him. It's eye candy and really I'm not sure why it is that way with people. That buck is still the same buck as he was 2 years ago.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

This reminds me of something. When I came back home from my 2 years in Alaska, there were 2 dogs that I really wanted to bring with me. One was a champion sprint racer, she was a sweet dog. The other was a junior one dog racer trained to lead and wheel by himself. He was also trained to pack and in obedience. 
I left them in Alaska however because I was afraid that someone would misunderstand what a working Husky looks like and call Animal Control on them. These dogs were lean and tough... And you could see most of their ribs. That's just the way a true working dog looks. Fat just overheats them and slows them down.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I went to the ABGA National show in Nebraska this year, and from what I could see and hear, I think the association may be starting to come down on goats who are too heavy. Maybe it was just coincidence, but it was obvious that at least 2 of the 3 National show judges had a problem with fat goats. The leaner looking goats were winning. It was frustrating to some of the big wigs who are used to winning with their obese goats. 

With flushing, people are trying to rapidly produce a good crop of kids and in a lot of cases hoping to just make big $ quickly. Without doubt I think the flush doe should raise kids of her own, but I also understand that if you have $20,000 invested in this doe it sure would be a shame to lose her due to pregnancy problems! :shock: I've seen people flush does in perfect weight who have and can still raise kids on her own. People who are really into the money making aspect don't stop to think about what's best for the industry.... they just look at the best way to make money.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well I have a question about this flushing. I though a doe had to show some kind of sign of producing a kid, like a bag, by a certain age to be able to keep showing? Or are the just looking into files to see if they have some kind of offspring? 
Yeah Jill it's very frustrating the lack of knowledge people have about working dogs. We have cattle dogs that bust their butts and during the fall when we are gathering in the mountains people are always trying to take off with our dogs thinking they were dumped because of their condition......they also have no clue that if they did get their hands on one they would probably be bit also because their job is their life.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks for all of the comments, and input. I had debated posting this, but I just really feel torn. I want my kids to build up a better herd as they go, I want them to be able to show. But what I don't want is them to have to have goats that have to have grain poured to them along with supplements, etc. just to make them fatter and overweight. 
Losing my son's beloved doe, Peanut to toxemia because she was overweight was the hardest loss I've ever experienced because there just wasn't anything we could do to pull her out of it, we tried everything suggested. Sadly the only thing that would have saved her was aborting pregnancy the minute we saw an issue. 

This year we decided not to grain our adult does through the summer. They are nothing fancy/show quality, but have given my kids nice babies to show. They are on the thin side, but I know once I worm them, and put them on feed, they will pick up just enough to have good weight vs. being overweight. 

Jessica - good point about that - they are supposed to show signs of being pregnant or birthing out by 2 years of age. I am going to guess that some probably don't do it and get away with it, or some breed to get them to pass, then don't breed them again.

I understand that a goat gets to be an expensive risk. But still, if it can't breed and kid a few times in it's life and has to be flushed because of keeping it overweight and putting it at risk, I think it's a downfall for production.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

My good friends here in South Central KY who raise and show Boers (Nationwide) have been expressing dismay that the only goats that seem to catch the judges' eyes are obese. I feel for you, and agree, this is not good for goats.


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