# Breeding plans!



## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

this year i will be breeding all three of my does, they are all registered saanens. and range from a three year old to a 16 month old and a 14 month old.

Fancy is the three year old, born April 10th 2015, she is going to be bred to ironwood a four year old buck that fancy has been bred to before
Fiona is the 16 month old, born on April 7th 2017 and will be bred to a Nigerian buck to try to breed mini saanens
Becca is the 14 month old doe, born on June 13 2017 and will be bred to a saanen buck
the new doe, Honey is 5 months old, born on May 3rd 2018 and will not be bred this year


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Nice, looks like a good match.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

FUN!!!!! What month are you hoping to get your babies?


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

march through may


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

FIONA









FANCY









BECCA


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Nice.


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## Batgirl&Emma3214 (Aug 27, 2018)

Fancy looks so cute!


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

thank you!


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

What is a positive cae test?


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Not sure exactly what you’re asking. Did one of them test positive for CAE?


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

No but one has a positive number that says negative fir the result all the rest are negative numbers and negative results


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Old Post Farm said:


> No but one has a positive number that says negative fir the result all the rest are negative numbers and negative results


Could you maybe post a photo of the results? Mine are always positive numbers, CAE negative less than 30 (I think), borderline 30-40, and positive over 40.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Good luck with your breedings by the way


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

My favorite doe pictured is Becca! She's beautiful. :hubbahubba:


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

thank you both. i love Becca too she is a dog, she will follow me around any where i go in the pasture and if she cant find me she will scream.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

Fiona's CAE was 5.58


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

Honey is in heat today! Fancy was last week! Fiona or Becca (or both) were in heat two weeks ago! we will have bucks here from october to January (and beyond cus i bought a buck)


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

Becca and Fiona were both showing signs of heat today!
size comparison of Fancy and Honey


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

i will have good conformation pictures taken this weekend at the show


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

When do you plan to breed Honey? 5 months is very early..........


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

In late january  she'll be eight-nine months for breeding and thirteen-fourteen months for kidding. she is going to be bred to a nigerian buck.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is always best to breed at 1 year old, only if they reach good weight then.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

buck is comming tonight, Fancy and Fiona are in RAGING heats so hopefully beginning of march babies.
i have decided to breed fiona to ironwood too and not a nigerian


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

every one in my area sewars by breeding does at as young as 6 months. i have asked around about Honey's age and weight and every one thinks she will be fine if i breed her in january. i will make aa final decision in december and think about pros/cons


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Six months old is definitely too young to breed IMO. The breeder I got my two Nubian bucklings from sometimes breeds at 7 months I think, but only if they are around 90+ pounds or so. The youngest I would breed a goat is 8 months old, but even then, only if she was larger than most kids her age (95+ pounds for a standard breed).

But, overall I think it is best to wait for their second fall.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

she's already at least 65 lbs and will be bred when she is 9 months, since she is a nigerian cross the breeder said to wait untill she was 80 lbs.
ther is a farm with just nigerians that has aa yearling that is only 30 lbs and they are breeding her , she is half the size of honey


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

Fancy and Fiona both bred by Ironwood (each got mounted twice) they will stay with him for a few days to be sure they are bred


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Old Post Farm

They are your does, your herd. I did not see this thread when you first started it in August. If I had I would have brought up not breeding Honey this season.

Because Saanens are slow developers, because you might choose a different buck when you see her fully grown, because you have other does that will be giving milk/kids for you, and because it just is a better idea all around to not breed so young (your neighbors' opinion notwithstanding) I'd ask you to please hold off on Honey until next season.

You have a beautiful herd. Must you even risk harming one of them by pushing an early breeding? Saanens develop so slowly...


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I do have a friend who has been breeding Saanens for 30 years, she is a retired appraiser for ADGA, she still teaches them and she teaches judges. She breeds her does to kid out at a year old.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

30 years ago I learned mistaken things about Nubians from a breeder and judge who'd done that for 40 years when she taught me.

As I said, these are her does, her herd. I'm only asking that she look at this with fresh eyes and then make her decision. She's got time before her planned breeding date to consider.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

please know i am not ignoring this, im sick, i willbe back to talk in a few days


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Old Post Farm said:


> im sick,


Please take care of yourself. We can't do without you....


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Get well soon.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

thank you both. I am feeling a little better today.

why would evryone in my area be telling me to breed young if it isn't safe for the doe to have kids early? and since honey isn't full saanen wouldn that effect her breeding age?
Fiona was 7 months old when we were told we should breed her


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I see it this way, when someone tells me they breed babies too young. 
I see they care nothing about the animal and are only in it for profit and do not care about the consequences that might happen. The same reasons why we do not want our child to get pregnant too young.

Things that may occur with breeding goats too young:
1. C-cection, babies too big to be born naturally.

2. Not mature enough in the head and may disown the kids, you will have bottle babies on your hands.

3. Death during labor, a uterine tear from complications may occur.

4. May not dilate properly because their bodies are not mature enough and being first time. 

5. Growth, may be stunted from most of the nutrition going to the kids and not the doe, as she is trying to grow and give nutrients to the kids at the same time.

6. If over fed during late term pregnancy, the young mama trying to grow, may get pregnancy toxemia or other issues.

7. Too small, no room in the womb to carry multiples, kids may tangle easier, making it harder getting then out during labor.

You may not have any issues, however, the threat is always there.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

why do people recomend breeding so early then ? (i know it depends on the person)


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Old Post Farm said:


> why do people recomend breeding so early then ? (i know it depends on the person)


Like Pam said, maybe for profit (although they might not admit it) or just simply ignorance.

My almost 7 month old Mini-Lamancha doeling is in full blown heat today. She is short and stout, weighing around 60lbs I'd guess, but even if I had a mini buck (which I don't) I wouldn't even consider breeding her now. She's still so young. I'm holding her over for next year.


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

Yes, thanks all but I'm not in this for the money. Let me just reach that knife in my back. Do you think Old Mountain Farm is going to risk a doe worth thousands of dollars to breed early, or does she believe that dairy goats are designed to make babies and milk? Dill's? The gorgeous Saanens from Springfield Oaks? There are many fine breeders who believe that dairy goats held over tend to get fat which is felt to be dangerous to kidding.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

CrazyDogLady said:


> Let me just reach that knife in my back.


Oh, Wow.



CrazyDogLady said:


> Do you think Old Mountain Farm is going to risk a doe worth thousands of dollars to breed early, or does she believe that dairy goats are designed to make babies and milk? Dill's? The gorgeous Saanens from Springfield Oaks?


No, we don't think that. In those cases we think they are continuing what they were taught, and that they have the resources to pour into supplementing to make up for it.

I've never seen a 1 year old Saanen be too fat to breed. Yes, I have seen an overfed 3 year old too fat to breed. No one is suggesting waiting long enough for that to happen.

Saanens, properly grown are known to be able to milk through over a year. They don't get too fat to breed, either. Fat is caused by diet and inactivity, not age.

It is your herd, your does. I'm certain you have the funds to pour into them to make up for early breeding and so probably no harm will ensue. And I'm glad for it.

Someone else reading this may not understand that caveat. For that reason I'm glad these other, newer, points of view are being mentioned.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Old Post Farm I am glad you are feeling better. Thank you for being willing to hear everyone out. You will make the right decision for your circumstances. I know you will.


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

CrazyDogLady said:


> Yes, thanks all but I'm not in this for the money. Let me just reach that knife in my back. Do you think Old Mountain Farm is going to risk a doe worth thousands of dollars to breed early, or does she believe that dairy goats are designed to make babies and milk? Dill's? The gorgeous Saanens from Springfield Oaks? There are many fine breeders who believe that dairy goats held over tend to get fat which is felt to be dangerous to kidding.


There is no one-size-fits-all when talking about breeding age. Sorry if we offended you, we were not targeting anybody and not trying to sound as if our way was the only way, because it's not.

Now I am curious, at what age do you breed your does? What requirements must they fill to be bred young? I'm not trying to start anything, just always interested in how others do it.

I know that you yourself (as well as anybody on this forum) did not say this, but I really hate it when (and I see this all the time, especially on FB) some people tell others to breed by age alone. I HAVE and WOULD breed as early 8 months, IF the doe in question was of sound health, great weight, and so on... But any earlier than that I *personally* would not breed. When figuring out when to breed a doe, you must take everything into consideration before doing so.

As I said before, a breeder I highly respect breeds the majority of her does when they are 7 months old BUT, they are very large Nubians and she feeds hers excellently.

Another breeder I highly respect and who has been breeding amazing, show-stopping Nubians for 30 years, ALWAYS waits until the doe's second fall (so they're typically around 18-20 months old) before breeding. If I could choose a buckling from any herd in the US, I would get one from him honestly. Maybe some day....

Sorry for such a long post.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

good information @Goat_Scout 
what are your standards for breeding a young doe?
i am trying to get as much infornation as possible before i make a final decision


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Old Post Farm said:


> good information @Goat_Scout
> what are your standards for breeding a young doe?
> i am trying to get as much infornation as possible before i make a final decision


Just off the top of my head


8 months minimum
Overall great health, shiny coat, etc
If they are narrower (particularly in the rump) does, I like to wait a bit longer before breeding
Must be at least 85-90lbs (most standard breeds) or 60-70lbs (Mini-Lamanchas/Mini-Nubians (which I don't have anymore)/Myotonics

I really just evaluate *each* *individual* doe though. Some come from slower maturing lines, some (my minis) have different percentages of Lamancha or Nubian so they are smaller or larger than others, some just simply need a little more growth....

Last year I DID have an accidental breeding that resulted in my teensy weensy 6 month old Mini-Nubian doeling getting bred by a Mini-Lamancha buck. We gave her lute, but it wasn't successful (my fault).
I put her on a strict diet, and she kidded all by herself with a single buckling.  After she kidded I was glad the lute didn't work, LOL! She was not stunted, was a great mama, and a great milker. But despite that, I still wouldn't purposefully breed a doeling that young.

Below are 2, 2018-born doelings. Mazil (purebred Kiko), shown left, was 65lbs at 6 months old, and must be at LEAST 80-85 pounds right now, at 9 months old. I am planning on breeding her to a purebred Kiko on her next cycle.
On the right is Dipity (an almost 7 month old Mini-Lamancha). I'm guessing she's around 60lbs, but I'd have to weigh her to know for sure. She still seems like just a baby to me though, too young to be bred. She so badly wants to be bred though, LOL. She's a wild woman and hard to contain when she's in heat.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

Honey is atleast 60 pounds (probaly more) at 6 months old and almost as big as doelings from this year that are full saanen or saanen lamancha that are 1-2 months older than her she seems much helthier than my Fiona when she was 6 months old


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Goat_Scout said:


> Just off the top of my head
> 
> 
> 8 months minimum
> ...


 Very well said.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

CrazyDogLady said:


> Yes, thanks all but I'm not in this for the money. Let me just reach that knife in my back. Do you think Old Mountain Farm is going to risk a doe worth thousands of dollars to breed early, or does she believe that dairy goats are designed to make babies and milk? Dill's? The gorgeous Saanens from Springfield Oaks? There are many fine breeders who believe that dairy goats held over tend to get fat which is felt to be dangerous to kidding.


There was no need to jump back in that tone, we are not here to attack.

Old mountain Farm, asked a question and we answered it, for a reason why they are saying they breed young.

We all have different opinions.
We may not agree to it all but, we are here to help others not cause upset.

Goats get fat from the way they are fed.
So, if they are overly fed, yes, they will have issues. So the blame is on the breeder, not the age of the goat there.

We are here to educate those, who do not know and explain the risks in which can happen.

I have to ask, do you breed at 6 months old?

I also see some breeders who may not know anything about goats, who have 3,5,6,7 month olds, plus the mama's who come back in season, just after birth, get re-bred right away before they can bounce back from having the babies, now in front of them. These goats, are with a buck 24/7, in which babies are bred very young. 
Some in fact don't care and just are in it for the money, believe me.

We need to educate, it is not OK to breed babies or those who are not ready or have more growing to do.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

I was at a big show this year. In the yearling milker class with my do who was born early february who stood well over the height of the other two in the class. The other two even though they were also March/feb babies were tiny because instead of growing they put all their nutrients into growing babies and now look sick. Where my yearling milker easily outgrew my 4 year olds and turned into a beautiful doe. I wouldnt breed for a yearling milker again. She doesnt have the maturity to be in the milker pen but she cant go into the baby pen. We got lucky she had a mini lamancha kid that didnt take too much nutrition from


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

IF I was to breed Honey this winter how should i be feeding her to keep kids smaller but giving enough nutrition for her to grow


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Old Post Farm said:


> IF I was to breed Honey this winter how should i be feeding her to keep kids smaller but giving enough nutrition for her to grow


Alfalfa hay is great to feed pregnant does (and really any goat regardless of age, breed, etc). It really helped my Mini-Nubian doeling with her pregnancy. 
I also gave Hildy 1-2 cups of grain mixed with a some beet pulp and BOSS every day.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

i was looking at Honey and then looking at Fancy (since she is the only one who has kidded before) and Honey is wider in the chest than Fancy, and she is very wide in her rump, i'll post pictures in the morning.
if Fiona and Honey had been thee same age last year and i had to choose i would have bred i would have chosen Honey by far, she is a more muscular, stronger doeling than Fiona was.
thinking about it and my mentors were kind of the kind of people who were like "their animals they can handle themselves" and only treated something if it was visible. but they don't use any minerals, or suplimentation for their goats and their oldest doe is 12 

i am just thinking for now and will not make a decision untill i talk to my vet too


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

If you have the time, I would think about sprouting oats, wheat, barley and give that to her. IMO it increases available nutrition and does not take up more room in her abdominal cavity. This is in addition to good hay (alfalfa hay or pellets is good) clean fresh water, and of course, minerals.


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

So consider this. An animal that looks full grown on the outside, may not be fully developed on the inside. We humans are stewards of our livestock. It is my opinion that it is my resposibility to keep my animals safe and healthy. 
That being said I would ask you to at least consider waiting to breed her till she is more developed on the inside.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

thank you all for youur input, every opinion will be taken into account when i decide to breed Honey or not, i am going to talk to some connections, including Honey's breeder my vet, another vet, my 4-h leader and other goat friends. thanks again


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

here are some pictures of Honey that (kind of) show her width






















sorry they aren't good pictures the ones i took this morning are taking forever to load


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She is beautiful. 

Still looks quite young.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

i think i have made my decision, and i don't think i am going to breed her.
i emailed her breeder and the breeder thinks to wait, just because her dam was small and we don't know her estimated mature weight will be 


on another note Becca was in heat today (i wasn't able to breed her because the only buck we have is her sire. they both have slight cow hocks and i don't want to increase that.


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Who are you planning on breeding Becca to?


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

a itty bity 6 month old wattled saanen buck (i don't know his registered name otherwise i would post his pedigree. i might see if we can get her bred tonight


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Just a couple of thoughts. As you become more experienced with your particular bloodlines, kidding, maturity and the vision of your herd, you tend to make different choices. I have 3 that could be bred this year because they make weight and age requirements. I will only breed ONE late, if at all - depends not only on structure, but how quickly the line matures and their MENTAL maturity. If I didn't know my does VERY well, I would always choose to hold over. Unless you are a breeder who sells EXTREMELY high quality show stock, you won't make much $$ anyway. Always do what is in the best interest of the doe.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

wifeof1 said:


> So consider this. An animal that looks full grown on the outside, may not be fully developed on the inside. We humans are stewards of our livestock. It is my opinion that it is my resposibility to keep my animals safe and healthy.
> That being said I would ask you to at least consider waiting to breed her till she is more developed on the inside.


Thats a very good point that I didnt even consider. The part that we cant see


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Old Post Farm said:


> i have made my decision


I have got to tell you, I am uber-impressed with you right now. NOT because you decided in the direction I was leaning, but because you stepped out of an "of course" mindset and considered all the information coming in to you.

I have VERY high hopes for the future of your herd with such a wise owner as yourself.

Yes, I'd feel the same if you'd decided the other way, because you still would have looked at everything first and made what you thought was the right decision.

And that is the best any of us can do.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

i think, i was just thinking since honey's breeder offered up a buckling to use i thought she meant breed honey this year. and where i got ironwood he was in with the does while they were kidding and with his own kids all year so if there were kids going into heat he could have bred them. that farm also has the best looking goats for a registered dairy that i have seen. we were told by our mentors to breed fiona early and we tried she just didn't take (which was probably a good thing looking at how she's grown). this has been a valuable lesson in herds manship and i hope others can learn from the amazing info posted here by you experienced breeders.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Really good to hear. 

I have to add, you asked prior on how to feed the does so she can grow and support her babies. There is a fine line there. 
You do not want to get her too fat.
If too fat, later term, can cause pregnancy toxemia and possible kidding issues.

Also do know, babies grow the most, the last month of pregnancy, over feeding grain ect can make the babies grow big depending on how much fed, late term, as in graining.

That is why it is best to wait, so she has the time to grow first.


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

i took Ironwood out of the pen with Fancy and Fiona so their due date(s) are between march 9th and march 16th 2019 :7up: yay not a whole month of guessing 

Becca will be bred in the next two months


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## Old Post Farm (Nov 15, 2017)

fiona didn't get bred the first time so she went back in with ironwood
today fancy was acting in heat but when i put her with the buck she was running from him even iff he just sniffed her:shrug:
still haven't gotten becca bred but her and hony are both in heat right now


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She may be starting her heat cycle, just not quite in standing heat yet.


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