# Can dam raised goats be friendly?



## cheekygreek (Apr 12, 2015)

I have only had bottle babies that I bought and now we have a pregnant doe. We recently bought her and she is very skittish. We've made some progress with her, but it's still a challenge. If we let her raise her kids will they be skittish like her even if we spend a lot of time with them? Would it be possible to bottle feed them but have her still care for them? Our goats are pets first and foremost, so it's absolutely necessary for them to be friendly and outgoing.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Dam raised kids can be very friendly if you spend a lot of time with them but no guarantees.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

I have the sweetest doe ever and she was dam raised! She is my baby!


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

Absolutely. If you spend time with them.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

All my goats are dam-raised. (And they said dam-raised kids never make good packgoats. HA!)









If the mama is skittish, she will try to teach this to the kids. I don't think you're going to be successful at part bottle raising. You either have to pull the kids and commit to purely bottle raise them from birth, or leave them with their mom and commit to spend the time it takes to socialize them.

We bring our babies into the house every night and hold them while we watch movies on the couch for their first month of life. Once they're to big and crazy to sit quietly on our laps, we start taking them for walks and hikes with us sans mom. We'll just load them in the car and bring them with us places. By then the moms are used to us babysitting their kids, so it's not usually too traumatic. Pretty soon we have some awesome little hiking buddies and some of them become more bonded to us than to their moms.

Personally, I'm in favor of dam-raising because I think it's healthier for mom and kids, but with a skittish mama you'll definitely need to exercise due diligence to make sure her kids become friendly.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

I loooooove dam raising and all of our goats are uber friendly. We do have one a little skittish but she's come around. We currently have a baby born a couple days ago being dam raised. The key is to mess with them constantly. Let them see you as something that produces fun and pleasurable experiences. We go out and pick baby up, give stratches and cuddles. 

We did have a doe that came to us with a 2 week old baby. Mom was super skittish and would run from me. I got her to come to me a little more with daily treats, sitting in the pen, letting her come near me on her own. Her baby was skittish for a while but he quickly found we were fun and had yummy treats and it felt really good to be scratched lol. He came up to us way more than mom did.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 3, 2018)

Dam raised kids can be very friendly! Just be sure to handle the kids a LOT. Pick them up. Snuggle them. Take them on walks. Try to attend the birth and handle the kids a lot.
We dam raised for years, but as the herd grew we decided to start bottle feeding. Our herd is CAE negative and we don't heat treat anything. I can honestly say I love bottle babies! Prior to bottle raising, our does were difficult to milk. They were very friendly and sweet but didn't want us milking them. Some learned to accept it, others did not.
Once we started bottle raising, life was easier. We had some "touch-me-not" goats (they were dam raised and the breeders did not handle the kids). When we pulled and bottle fed, even these does would turn into love bugs. I in turn became their "kid" as I was doing all the milking. The does never cried for their kids and as soon as delivery starts- I'm with them and they bond to me.



Damfino said:


> I'm in favor of dam-raising because I think it's healthier for mom and kids,


So far, I haven't found this to be true, though everyone's experiences are different (part of why this is a great forum  ) I bottle fed nearly 50 kids last year and have been bottle feeding since 2014 I believe. We dam raised for many years then went to bottle feeding. I feel our kids are just as hardy as when we dam raised. The only difference might be at the very beginning- when it's cold we have to provide a heat lamp to the newborns. A dam raised goat would have it's mother to snuggle up against.

I think part of it is also management. I see far to many underfeed their bottle kids and that can lead to un-thrifty kids. Genetics also play a role.

ETA:
At this point, whenever I bring something in (which is pretty rare) I no longer even consider dam raised kids because people just don't socialize the kids like I want. Which is a shame, because when dam raised our kids were so so so sweet!

We have also co-parented kids where they are both bottle fed and dam raised. Best of both worlds  But not all does allow it. In the future I'd like to do more co-parenting. Just don't have the time right now.


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## SonRise Acres (Apr 24, 2018)

Our sweetest does are dam raised. We became their best friends from day one of life and they will still sit in our laps and seek us out to play with or just to hang out with.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree, we dam raise our kids and try to avoid bottle kids at all cost. You can't tell the dam raised kids from the bottle raised kids (when we do have a random bottle baby).

If the dam is skittish I'd try to stall her when she kids, just her and the kids, and spend a lot of time with them. Then give her time out during the day where you can spend time with the kids - you know a smaller area, so you can get your hands on them. When they are smaller, they don't run quite as far as fast lol. Lots of lap time, baby talking. Offer mama treats, baby talk, lots of scratches, and rubs to try and get her to tame down.

We had a doe years ago that wouldn't tame down, still unpredictable and a bit crazy. But her kids were very friendly and sweet because we spent time with them. She was the only doe over the years we could never get to settle and tame down. 

We just bought 2 buck kids that were dam raised, and have basically been hands off for a couple of months and they are really friendly. I was expecting these boys to be wild and have to go through a taming process, but nope. 1 is slightly more shy than the other, but once you have him or are petting him he is fine. The more out going one is super nosey and is always in your business.


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## cheekygreek (Apr 12, 2015)

I'm totally interested in co-parenting! Any advice on how to do it successfully?



Goat Whisperer said:


> Dam raised kids can be very friendly! Just be sure to handle the kids a LOT. Pick them up. Snuggle them. Take them on walks. Try to attend the birth and handle the kids a lot.
> We dam raised for years, but as the herd grew we decided to start bottle feeding. Our herd is CAE negative and we don't heat treat anything. I can honestly say I love bottle babies! Prior to bottle raising, our does were difficult to milk. They were very friendly and sweet but didn't want us milking them. Some learned to accept it, others did not.
> Once we started bottle raising, life was easier. We had some "touch-me-not" goats (they were dam raised and the breeders did not handle the kids). When we pulled and bottle fed, even these does would turn into love bugs. I in turn became their "kid" as I was doing all the milking. The does never cried for their kids and as soon as delivery starts- I'm with them and they bond to me.
> 
> ...


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

I like co-parenting


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

The mother raises the kids better than we can do. Bottle feeding is always a substitute. But do try to "brain wash" the kids during their first 24 hours in life! Older than that, they will be able to run faster than you, and that is when you benefit from their knowing that you are a very nice person!

If your goat wants to be alone when delivering, you will still have plenty of time to pick up a kid, nuzzle it, put it down, pick it up again ... The trick is to repeat this many times, not necessarily keep it in your lap for a long time each time.

And yes, the kids will learn a behaviour from their mother as well, of course! Do not give her a chance to teach them to be afraid of you! Make them know better!

You can also try to make the kids learn your voice before delivery. Only see to it that the mother feels good when your voice is heard, for example when she eats her treats.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 3, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> The mother raises the kids better than we can do.


I think much depends on the goat and on the owner. I'ma pretty good bottle feeding goat mom 

@cheekygreek I'll post later


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

I'm actually co-parenting for the first time right now. I had my first set of triplets born yesterday, and I'm co-parenting with the 2 bucklings but completely bottle feeding the tiny doeling (after a few bottles she refused to nurse on her dam anyway - sassy little thang) although she is still out with her brothers and dam right now. My goal is to keep them all together during the day, separate the kids at night, and milk the mom in the morning (for our own use), then give each kid a bottle and afterwards giving them to their dam. For these first couple days I have to get up in the middle of the night to give them a bottle because they are all a little weak and still haven't quite succeeded with nursing by themselves. Plus their dam is a first freshener and she still hasn't quite got it in her head that she needs to stand still for them to nurse. 

Two other kids I have now that are dam raised are just as "annoying" (meaning jumping up on you, sucking on your fingers, chewing your hair, eating your clothes - just totally getting up in your personal space) as bottle babies. If they see you, they will come running and yelling up to you for attention (just like bottle babies).
Being well socialized is very important to me and I would pull and bottle feed any kids from a flighty dam should I ever have one. Because if the dam is wild she WILL try to teach her kids to be wild (and she generally succeeds IMO).

One thing that I've found that almost always guarantees that dam raised kids will be friendly is to be there for the birth. Help clean off the kid, rub it, and help it nurse. Of course, if you do all this and then cease to try to and socialize the kid it will all go to waste, but it does help _immensely _with getting them friendly.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> We have also co-parented kids where they are both bottle fed and dam raised. Best of both worlds  But not all does allow it. In the future I'd like to do more co-parenting. Just don't have the time right now.


Don't have the time... that's the key right there. I've only once had success at feeding bottles to a dam-raised kid, and that was because she was danged hungry and I was danged persistent. The doe had a blocked teat which I had to milk out by hand, and the larger twin was hogging everything in the non-blocked side. The kid was already starting to look thin and unthrifty by the time I finally convinced her to take a bottle, and boy was it a struggle! All the other kids I've tried to teach about bottles have soundly rejected me. I'm afraid I'm just no good at co-parenting. One reason is probably because I don't separate kids and mamas for any length of time, so the kids are never hungry. I'm not going to make a kid hungry just so I can have the satisfaction of feeding it a bottle.

As for the skittish doe, she may actually become much calmer around you after she gives birth. I've sometimes noted some pretty dramatic personality changes in a doe pre- vs. post-kidding. Interestingly enough, the only skittish goats I've ever owned were both bottle-raised. I bought them as adults and it took me over a year to tame them down to where they would consistently come to me. Both tamed down a lot after kidding, but neither ever became totally trusting of humans. Their babies, on the other hand, were all very people-friendly.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

My sweetest goat was dam-raised. She's my friendliest goat! I worked hard for that friendliness. She also has the best manners of all my goats. Her dam worked hard for those manners. I loved the arrangement. 

My first goat was very skittish. I spent a lot of time with them, and wasn't pushy. I just spent time with them and showed them I wasn't a scary predator. I made sure I was present for her first baby delivery, and offered my birth-fluid covered hand to her for licking (the baby was still-born). I became her baby. She had a complete personality change. She started screaming for me when she saw me coming. 

It takes time to become friends with dam-raised babies or skittish goats, but so does bottle-feeding.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes, they can be friendly. Time, treats, scratches and love.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Our dam raised kids are friendly, and I'm also one who believes that dam raised kids are more thrifty (growthy).
We weighed our kids yesterday and they were between 44-57 lbs, and none are even a year old yet. ( Nigerians)
One drawback is our Jr's haven't done as well in the show ring lately because they are too darn fat. (embarrassed) But, that's OK, when they come into milk they can lose some of that fat and then raise some fat babies of their own. (dance)
And honestly, if we had to bottle raise we would probably get out of it.
I enjoy watching the family's (multiple generations) hanging out together :bighug:


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 3, 2018)

I think much has to do with management. I feel many bottle raised kids may not get what they actually need. Can you have an unthrifty bottle kid? Absolutely. Can you have a unthrifty dam raised kid? Of course. 

Over the years I have observed a few things:
1) Many people who to dam raise say that bottle raised kids are unthrifty and don't grow as well.
I wonder if this is because this is not a normal practice for them. Are the kids really getting enough to eat? Are the kids deficient in vitamins or minerals? Often times, when you have a dam raise only herd needing to bottle feed, there is a reason. Often times this is because the dam either rejects the kid, or the kid is weak or small at birth and in turn needs to be bottle fed. 
Are these kids really un-thrifty because they were bottle fed, or is this because there were already other issues such as being the runt of the litter? 

2) Often times people will say that bottle kids don't grow quickly. Because I show, I get to see my goat alongside many other breeders. I can honestly say my kids are certainly not lacking! I have had 9-10 month old Nigerian Dwarf kids weigh 50-60lbs (scale weight) and tower over other bottle fed and dam raised goats. I have also had the smallest quints catch up to the size of single, dam raised kids. Again, I feel this comes down to management and also genetics. I have a few goats that are just a little smaller then some of my other goats. It is common in this line and I do not attribute this to being bottle fed when I have 40 other bottle raised kids that are healthy, growthy, and hardy. If a producer cannot keep bottle kids alive or get them to grow they need to look at management. What needs to change? Why aren't bottle kids keeping up with the dam raised kids? 

In 2016 I pulled most my kids and let a few dam raise. I weighed these same does a few days ago and there is only a few pound difference between the goats who were bottle fed and those that were dam raised. The bottle fed does were actually slightly heavier, but not enough to make a difference. 

3) People will often say kids that are bottle raised aren't parasite resistant.
I have not found this to be true in our herd, having both dam raised goats and bottle fed goats. I feel this is more genetics and again, management. This has been something that is very important to us! Prior to ever bottle feeding, before I even had registered stock this was something we always looked for and bred for. I have not found any link to dam raised kids having better parasite resistance. 

4) Some say bottle raised goat have a hard time adjusting to new herd
I have not found this to be true. I think in some cases bottle raised kids do a little better adjusting to their new herd. This is another reason why we decided to start bottle feeding or co-parent kids. When we would bring dam raised goats in they would always seem more stressed and often times have more of a parasite or coccidia bloom than the bottle raised goats we brought in. Just our observation. We had purchased some dam raised goats that were never touched and were just terrified, supposedly handled. Had they been more social and handled (more than once a day) it probably would be a different experience. Our bottle raised goats love to go on car rides (even adults). Our dam raised goats tend to get upset and want to be with their family.
As much as I love having the "families" if you have one doe who is a jerk, she will teach her kids and then you'll have a whole line that like to bully other goats. Ask me how I know LOL

5) Some say a person can never care for a kid as well as it's mother
I think this comes down to the producer. Some people just have "bad luck" with bottle kids or don't have the experience. I feel I do a pretty good job  
By bottle feeding I never have to worry if the kids is getting enough to eat or if it's received enough colostrum. I don't have to worry about the mother accidentally crushing the kid in an effort to keep warm, or a doe getting overwhelmed and accidentally stepping on her kids. Maybe I micromanage? LOL But for me, bottle feeding gives me peace of mind. It works for me. 

6) Some say that bottle raised goats will not be able to dam raise/aren't good mothers.
In my herd I have not found this to be true. Many of our clients will let their (bottle fed) goats dam raise without any issue. We have allowed our bottle fed goats to dam raise and they have done a good job.

With Nigerians, we have to separate the bucklings by 8 weeks of age as they try to breed their sisters. For me, when we dam raised this would break my heart as the siblings were so bonded and would cry for days. When we pull and bottle feed, bucks can be removed at an earlier age and there isn't any stress or drama involved. 

I think there are also a few other factors. 
ANY kid that is on milk for a prolonged amount of time is likely to accumulate more fleshing. If you do not wean your dam raised kids, it is likely that they will continue to nurse and get a little heavy. You do, however need to be careful with this. I tend to have fleshy Nigerians also, so not picking on anyone  But excessive fleshing can cause your goat to loosen in the shoulder and open in the crop (especially if you don't have perfect shoulder assembly.)

With all this being said, I am absolutely in favor of dam raising. I am also in favor of bottle feeding. In reality, everyone needs to do what they feel best. Not everyone can bottle feed. Not everyone is comfortable with dam raising. I personally LOVE bottle kids! It is work, but there is something special to me. 

As always, you still need to spend time with your goat. A bottle kid can become flighty if not handled just as dam raised kids can be friendly if they are handled.

Back when we exclusively dam raised, our kids were very friendly and the kids were handled at birth. It seemed to make the kids more accepting and they were all very friendly. 

This post is NOT directed at any member, I think this is a good discussion! I do want to put in a good word for those of us that bottle raise  

As far a co-parenting, not everyone can do it. When we want to co-parent we stay with the doe during kidding and help dry the kids off (would do this even if we were dam raising). Once the doe is done kidding, I milk her straight into a bottle and feed the kids there, in the stall with their dam. After a few days I'll start to separate the dam for a few hours and put her back with the herd and give the kids a bottle then. This makes life easier when you are on milk test and need to separate kids for 24 hours.

We had some preconceived ideas about bottle feeding before we even considered bottle raising. Many things that we thought about bottle feeding just were not true. I can honestly say, once we started bottle feeding it really opened our eyes, it wasn't this terrible thing many think it is!


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

Twins at about two weeks. Both jumped onto my lap and fell asleep for about 30 minutes. So far all my kids are raised by their mothers. It is not the bottle feeding that makes them friendly, it is the time you spend with them. Our kids are handled several times daily. They love to play with us.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Some people are very good a bottle raising kids, but I've personally never seen a bottle kid that was as well-grown as a typical dam-raised kid. I first noticed the difference when we started showing in 2013. I walked my junior kids into the ring and they were massive compared to everything else. They were easily as big as the senior kids born 3-4 months earlier. Our registration papers were double- and triple-checked to make sure we weren't in the wrong class, and the way some of the stewards looked at us, I wondered if they suspected us of lying about the birth dates.

We've been to a lot of shows since then and no one gives us dirty looks any more. Some judges give us raised eyebrows and ask "What on earth do you feed these girls??" but by now the "regulars" know that we're some of the only dam-raisers in our part of the dairy goat showing world. I don't even separate our kids overnight, so they have round the clock access. Humans just can't keep up with that kind of feeding schedule, nor can we feed the same amount of milk without risk of overfeeding. With continual access to milk, the kids can drink more over the course of 24 hours while drinking less at each meal.

That said, it is very important to make sure our dam-raised babies are being adequately fed because some mamas just aren't that great, and if you have triplets there may be one that gets left out. Bottle kids generally miss out on that early growth, but they will catch up in the long run. By the time they reach two years old you usually can't tell the difference. 

No matter what method you use, the most important thing is to socialize. The problem with my skittish bottle-raised goats was they only became "gentle" because they were fed, but no one interacted with them outside mealtime. We could coax them to us with treats and they would turn into sharks and almost take our fingers off, but they didn't want anything to do with us outside of food. Those skittish goats sure raised some sweet, friendly little babies though!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I think bottle feeding advice often indicates too little and too seldom. But, that is my opinion.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Just gotta add that those kids eating my hair in my avatar were dam raised. 

I often gave kids a bottle of their mother's milk in the mornings. It almost always worked and they still hit Mom when they were put back together.


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