# Feed ratio help needed- is what I feed balanced?



## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

Hello ! Need some guidance on feeding-
I’ve read about “ Calcium: Phosphorus Ratio” but I’m still lost, so I’ve listed some questions below

So my boys ( who are still intact- but will be weathered eventually) get:

free choice Timothy grass hay at all times

I have purina grower goat feed (says it has a balanced Calcium: Phosphorus Ratio on the bag? And
“Urinary acidifiers including ammonium chloride - helps reduce the incidence of urinary calculi” )
but I only give a small hand full of that a couple times out of the whole week since I heard so much about not giving males or wethers grain at all I’m lost on if I should still even be giving any?
Attached pic of the grains ratio on post.

Going to buy ammonium chloride powder to have on hand but should I also add this to their grain too once a week or month now? Or want until they are weathered to do that? For urinary precautions? Or not at all since the grain has it in it?

I give the manna pro loose goat mineral now but was going to switch to sweetlix 16:8 meat maker goat mineral, is that one indeed better? Or could I get a cattle one from tractor supply or rural king and they will get everything they need from that over the sweetlix?

Also I wanted to give small amounts off BOSS but I hear mixed things on this for males as well -

I just got alfalfa pellets too since I now heard all males should have alfalfa, so how much should I give a day of that as well? (They won’t have higher urinaly risk from this will they?

And lastly should I offer a second water that has apple cider vinger in it at all times?

I just want them to have the most balanced diet possible!

Help is very much appreciated !!!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

That is a medicated feed and should be fed at directed feed rate. From what I have (possibly) learned on here, the medicated feeds should never be fed at lower amounts because it will create "super" bugs. The medication is for coccidia which all goats have, you don't want to make a resistant strain.
I, personally, mix ammonium chloride with my goats minerals. It is mixed at one and a half pounds of ammonium chloride to twenty-five pounds of mineral, as to what @mariarose taught me. The Purina Wind and Rain Storm is a very good 
mineral that Tractor Supply sells. 







Also another Purina







I put water out that has a couple of splashes of Apple Cider Vinegar per eight quart bucket. My water is municipal water supply and has some lime and some iron to it. The ACV combats the lime. The goats quit drinking the plain tap water. When temperature gets 90*F and above I put out electrolytes mixed in water, also.


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

Dwarf Dad said:


> That is a medicated feed and should be fed at directed feed rate. From what I have (possibly) learned on here, the medicated feeds should never be fed at lower amounts because it will create "super" bugs. The medication is for coccidia which all goats have, you don't want to make a resistant strain.
> I, personally, mix ammonium chloride with my goats minerals. It is mixed at one and a half pounds of ammonium chloride to twenty-five pounds of mineral, as to what @mariarose taught me. The Purina Wind and Rain Storm is a very good
> mineral that Tractor Supply sells.
> View attachment 145587
> ...


Thank you ! 
For the minerals I already ordered the sweetlix 16:8 meat maker should I still add ammonium chloride too this mineral as well?


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

I also have these, should I does them once monthly as a preventative?


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

Also what does “direct feeding” mean about the grain?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Okay, I have 2 wethers, and I’ve gone through ALL OF THIS. 

The grain shouldn’t only be fed “a few times a week” either feed it every day, or not at all. It’s too confusing for them to get it occasionally. I give my growing boys a handful daily, but grain is not necessary. I don’t like giving alfalfa to boys, it’s a lot of calcium, but depends on your ratio, as grain is phosphorous and will probably balance that just fine. My optimal goat balanced diet is orchard grass hay, good minerals with ammonium chloride, free choice kelp meal (that will balance the calcium from the phosphorous rich grass hay), and apple cider vinegar in water is great. Grain fed in a small amount daily, pretty much as a treat, if you want. Small amounts of BOSS is healthy, just not too much. I keep ammonium chloride powder on hand in case of emergency, but if you add it in minerals it isn’t necessary to put over grain. Again, if you are going to feed grain, feed it it in a small amount daily, although it really isn’t completely necessary, as goats can live just fine with a hay diet, even better.

The selenium vitamin B shouldn’t be necessary to give preventively. Usually that is used for weak kids, or goats with acute deficiencies. Although pure probiotics (probios) on hand is what you want.


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Okay, I have 2 wethers, and I've gone through ALL OF THIS.
> 
> The grain shouldn't only be fed "a few times a week" either feed it every day, or not at all. It's too confusing for them to get it occasionally. I give my growing boys a handful daily, but grain is not necessary. I don't like giving alfalfa to boys, it's a lot of calcium, but depends on your ratio, as grain is phosphorous and will probably balance that just fine. My optimal goat balanced diet is orchard grass hay, good minerals with ammonium chloride, free choice kelp meal (that will balance the calcium from the phosphorous rich grass hay), and apple cider vinegar in water is great. Grain fed in a small amount daily, pretty much as a treat, if you want. Small amounts of BOSS is healthy, just not too much. I keep ammonium chloride powder on hand in case of emergency, but if you add it in minerals it isn't necessary to put over grain. Again, if you are going to feed grain, feed it it in a small amount daily, although it really isn't completely necessary, as goats can live just fine with a hay diet, even better.
> 
> The selenium vitamin B shouldn't be necessary to give preventively. Usually that is used for weak kids, or goats with acute deficiencies. Although pure probiotics (probios) on hand is what you want.


Thank you soo much !


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Welcome, @B.yusko 
You've gotten some really good advice. But if you are still confused by anything, please ask more. We want to help, but the sheer volume of knowledge on this site can feel overwhelming. Please keep asking.
The Sweetlix is a fine mineral. Some people prefer the Purina Wind and Rain, Storm. But some prefer the Sweetlix.

Ammonium Chloride should be in the mineral mix, not the feed, so far as I'm concerned. It has been a while since I've seen the ingredients in the Sweetlix and I don't remember if the AC is already in there or not. If so, it is easily mixed in. The amounts given above are correct.

Many people give the selenium/E gel every month, but many people give as needed. Unless you live somewhere that selenium poisoning is possible, there is no danger to giving it monthly. This would be your choice.

There is very little problem with your wethers getting some alfalfa, especially to counteract the phosphorus in your timothy hay. They may come to regard that as their daily handout/treat.

They almost certainly do not need grain, and shouldn't really have it unless they are working hard pulling carts or something like that.

The directed feed rate is for medicated feed. If you feed a medicated feed, then they need to have a certain amount of feed each and every day, The amount that is directed to be given, no more and no less. Same with medicated minerals. The amount directed to eat, no more, no less. I never recommend medicated minerals. Never.

Thank you so much for joining us at TGS.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

B.yusko said:


> Thank you !
> For the minerals I already ordered the sweetlix 16:8 meat maker should I still add ammonium chloride too this mineral as well?


I haven't read the tag. I think so.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

One reason you get some contradictory advice is that African and Swiss goats have differing food needs. 
When asking these questions stating the breed would be helpful. 

Wethers/ bucks should not have baking soda except in cases of bloat.


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

I can tell you what I do...

My buck and wether get free choice hay and then instead of grain they get a cup or so of alfalfa pellets and BOSS as a bit of a treat (daily). I offer Purina Wind and Rain Storm free choice and add AC vinegar to their water.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Honestly this is probably the hardest part, trying to get the ratio just right. Personally I think it is almost impossible to do and I think adding the AC for a little extra insurance is a good idea. Still try and get the ratio as close to right as you can, don’t just add the AC and think yep they are good no matter what now. 
As mentioned another good idea is to make sure they consume water. Adding the Apple cider vinegar I have heard people have had their goats consume more water when they do that. What people with show wethers do, that are fed mainly grain and not even close to a correct ratio is have electrolytes out to encourage water consumption. 
I personally think the alfalfa pellets are a good idea. Alfalfa usually has a very good amount of calcium. 
What I do with my bucks is they get pretty much free choice alfalfa hay. They do have a small pasture and some trees to munch on but most of their diet is the alfalfa. I don’t give grain unless they are thin and need it, but they are also very good about packing weight on after I get them away from the girls. You won’t have that issue lol. I do NOT ever give them BOSS. It is pretty high in phosphorus. If I ever did have a boy that was super super skinny though I would probably go ahead and add a little to their diet.


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

goathiker said:


> One reason you get some contradictory advice is that African and Swiss goats have differing food needs.
> When asking these questions stating the breed would be helpful.
> 
> Wethers/ bucks should not have baking soda except in cases of bloat.


Oh I see sorry ! I have Nigerian dwarfs


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Welcome, @B.yusko
> You've gotten some really good advice. But if you are still confused by anything, please ask more. We want to help, but the sheer volume of knowledge on this site can feel overwhelming. Please keep asking.
> The Sweetlix is a fine mineral. Some people prefer the Purina Wind and Rain, Storm. But some prefer the Sweetlix.
> 
> ...


Hello ! Thank you so much for the additional help!  Your break down does help me make more sense of everything, I probably should have mentioned they are Nigerian dwarfs and a couple months old (working on weaning now.)
So do you recommend me just pulling the grain all together now then? Or one small hand full everyday until gone and then not to repurchase? Regardless once all the grain is gone I believe I'm not going to keep grain in the mix since there is more cons then pros- but I do have almost the whole bag left right now.

So I updated my feeding as:
-Timothy still all day availability 
-bucket of normal water and a bucket of ACV water (which they have been loving already) 
-alfalfa pellets once daily 1/4 cup each
-minerals down all day (sweetlix is shipping to me already, the purina wind rain storm is actually more convenient for me to get next time if they are truly just as good)
-tiny sprinkle of BOSS once a week 
-working on adding garlic cloves into their diet too, do you recommend this as well?

And once the minerals arrive I should check to see if they have contain ammonium chloride right? I guess I get confused on mixing them in with minerals for daily use since some say they build up a tolerance then? 

Also I took baking soda away as free choice a while ago, when do I know when to ever offer it to them?

Thanks in advance again for your help!!


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

Jessica84 said:


> Honestly this is probably the hardest part, trying to get the ratio just right. Personally I think it is almost impossible to do and I think adding the AC for a little extra insurance is a good idea. Still try and get the ratio as close to right as you can, don't just add the AC and think yep they are good no matter what now.
> As mentioned another good idea is to make sure they consume water. Adding the Apple cider vinegar I have heard people have had their goats consume more water when they do that. What people with show wethers do, that are fed mainly grain and not even close to a correct ratio is have electrolytes out to encourage water consumption.
> I personally think the alfalfa pellets are a good idea. Alfalfa usually has a very good amount of calcium.
> What I do with my bucks is they get pretty much free choice alfalfa hay. They do have a small pasture and some trees to munch on but most of their diet is the alfalfa. I don't give grain unless they are thin and need it, but they are also very good about packing weight on after I get them away from the girls. You won't have that issue lol. I do NOT ever give them BOSS. It is pretty high in phosphorus. If I ever did have a boy that was super super skinny though I would probably go ahead and add a little to their diet.


Yes ! Definitely Agree ! I can't belive how much diets Very from owner to owner It makes my head spin when all I wanna do is the right thing for them ! Your info does help me a lot though as well so thank you !  even with the BOSS I hear so much back and forth with that too  do you think even a tiny spinkle once a week for them could threaten their ratio and be more harm then good? I just want it to help their coat and the other vitamins they do help with but if I should never offer at all I won't !


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

Tha


cbrossard said:


> I can tell you what I do...
> 
> My buck and wether get free choice hay and then instead of grain they get a cup or so of alfalfa pellets and BOSS as a bit of a treat (daily). I offer Purina Wind and Rain Storm free choice and add AC vinegar to their water.


thank you !  I do appreciate your example! And I think I may be switching to the purina wind and rain storm cattle mineral next since it's cheaper and more convenient then the sweetlix ! Is this the best mineral you've used?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You are welcome. I'll see what I can answer for you.


B.yusko said:


> I probably should have mentioned they are Nigerian dwarfs and a couple months old (working on weaning now.)


You are fine. This is helpful information. Nigerian Dwarves are an African breed. We'd love for @goathiker to come back and educate us on the diet needs of the African vs Swiss. My ideas on that are way to vague to say anything.


B.yusko said:


> So do you recommend me just pulling the grain all together now then?


I'd love for you to consider doing just that.


B.yusko said:


> Or one small hand full everyday until gone and then not to repurchase?


No, you can't do that. As said, this is medicated, so you have to give the full amount directed, each and every day, if you feed. Where it says DIRECTIONS, that's what you must follow. We'll need an accurate weight. @Jessica84 I know you use a creep feeder, but can you help with the math on this? 2 months old, being weaned.


B.yusko said:


> I do have almost the whole bag left right now.


Feeding grain and drugs that aren't needed, is wasting the feed anyway, is how I see it.


B.yusko said:


> the purina wind rain storm is actually more convenient for me to get next time if they are truly just as good)


My way of looking at this, is... It is always better to buy a good mineral locally than to order a good mineral elsewhere. That keeps the options available to you all the time.


B.yusko said:


> adding garlic cloves into their diet too, do you recommend this


Yes, that is an excellent idea.


B.yusko said:


> And once the minerals arrive I should check to see if they have contain ammonium chloride right?


Yes. Read the ingredients. If it says Ammonium Chloride, you don't have to add more.


B.yusko said:


> I guess I get confused on mixing them in with minerals for daily use since some say they build up a tolerance then?


I'm sorry. I do not understand this. They don't build up a tolerance to either the minerals OR the ammonium chloride. It isn't a drug.


B.yusko said:


> I took baking soda away as free choice a while ago, when do I know when to ever offer it to them?


You should learn the signs of bloat. That's when they'll need the additional baking soda. In the meantime, all that chewing up timothy hay is making the buffering compounds in the goat's own stomach.

Hope that helps. Good luck.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

They're just babies and they need protein to grow. You've got yourself going overboard a bit. 

I would be giving them a cup of alfalfa pellets twice a day each plus 1/2 cup grower mid morning. 
I would not buy more grower for a few reasons I will share if you like. 
I would rotate minerals monthly. 
More in a few must gorge lol


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> You are welcome. I'll see what I can answer for you.
> 
> You are fine. This is helpful information. Nigerian Dwarves are an African breed. We'd love for @goathiker to come back and educate us on the diet needs of the African vs Swiss. My ideas on that are way to vague to say anything.
> 
> ...


Yes that helped immensely!
Pulling all the grain now!
Better safe then sorry, you made it easier for me to understand!
Thanks so much again


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

goathiker said:


> They're just babies and they need protein to grow. You've got yourself going overboard a bit.
> 
> I would be giving them a cup of alfalfa pellets twice a day each plus 1/2 cup grower mid morning.
> I would not buy more grower for a few reasons I will share if you like.
> ...


What do you mean by rotate minerals monthly? Thanks !!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok you need to get a weight on them. It says it is 1.67 pounds of feed per 50 pounds. I couldn’t even begin to guess what a little nigi weighs. So grab one of the little ones and jump on a scale. Get his weight and then jump back on without him and get your weight. Subtract your alone weight from what you get with you and baby and that is his weight. If you get their weight we can help you with how much to give. 
These guys are being weaned correct? Also new to you? Is this grain what they ate before you got them? I give medicated grain to my kids and I keep them on it till a month after weaning, basically when the stress is done since stress can bring on a high worm and cocci load. Maybe wait and see what others say about that, this is just what I personally do and works for mine. That doesn’t mean it is the right way for everyone to do it.
You mentioned BOSS for their goat. What is going on with their coat? If it is very rough there may be a underlining issue that needs to be addressed. They may have a high worm load or they may need copper. Or are you just wanting to keep them with a nice coat?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Which noble grower is it 
R 16
R 20 
DQ 16

??


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Rotating minerals...
There is a benefit to switching your minerals periodically. I don't know that it must be done every month, but maybe after each bag is finished? I switch up my minerals more than anyone I know. I freely commit mineral infidelity. But I don't do it monthly.

I do agree that 1 cup of alfalfa pellets is a good amount.

@goathiker and @Jessica84 have a good point about keeping them on the grain until weaning is through. I don't do that with my herd because I don't start the grain. We do need an accurate weight to help do an accurate measurement for the grain.

I used to use medicated grain, but I won't any more. Jessica does use medicated grain and has a fine herd, so I'll bow to her experience in this. Goathiker knows the science behind everything, I just don't always understand what she drops on me.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Which noble grower is it
> R 16
> R 20
> DQ 16
> ...


The image shows Goat Grower 16 DQ
So I'm guessing the last one?


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

Jessica84 said:


> Ok you need to get a weight on them. It says it is 1.67 pounds of feed per 50 pounds. I couldn't even begin to guess what a little nigi weighs. So grab one of the little ones and jump on a scale. Get his weight and then jump back on without him and get your weight. Subtract your alone weight from what you get with you and baby and that is his weight. If you get their weight we can help you with how much to give.
> These guys are being weaned correct? Also new to you? Is this grain what they ate before you got them? I give medicated grain to my kids and I keep them on it till a month after weaning, basically when the stress is done since stress can bring on a high worm and cocci load. Maybe wait and see what others say about that, this is just what I personally do and works for mine. That doesn't mean it is the right way for everyone to do it.
> You mentioned BOSS for their goat. What is going on with their coat? If it is very rough there may be a underlining issue that needs to be addressed. They may have a high worm load or they may need copper. Or are you just wanting to keep them with a nice coat?


I think I'm just going to stay away from the grain all together now since I haven't been giving it regularly anyways but thanks for those tips  also yes new goat mom here and it has been quite the journey so far! Scary but worth it !

for their history I've had the one since he was 3wks and took over bottle feeding him and the other the day he was born since he was rejected and bottle fed since then, I'd say they are both about 25 pounds! (birth dates are 10/30 and 11/21) and they have both had fecals recently since they both goat into a poisons tree while we were building their new safe enclosure- so since that happened they've had many vet checks including blood and fecals, their coat isn't "shiney" but I also found they had a few lice today which I treated with cylence and replaced all new bedding- could that have anything to do with the way their coat has been looking? Also our weather in Florida has been crazy back and forth from 30-40 F nights for a few days then back to 70s so I don't know if they've been trying to grow some under coat and it's confused lol but also this is why I wanted to get better minerals for them since I know manna pro isn't the best with their levels now, I haven't noticed any true signs like fish tail or anything to make me really worried about a copper issue just yet


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Rotating minerals...
> There is a benefit to switching your minerals periodically. I don't know that it must be done every month, but maybe after each bag is finished? I switch up my minerals more than anyone I know. I freely commit mineral infidelity. But I don't do it monthly.
> 
> I do agree that 1 cup of alfalfa pellets is a good amount.
> ...


Gotcha ! Perfect so I'll do the sweetlix first then the purina next!

They weigh about 25 pounds so 1 cup each alfalfa pellets once daily still good to give? I just started to introduce the pellets to them so that's while I started at a pretty small amount


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Twice a day, you want them to not quite finish what they have, snacking all day. Remember, it's just hay in a different shape. 

Inside the digestive tract are a number of little fingers. Each of these are covered with special cells that grab and take away nutrients. 
A new born kid has no fingers at birth, they grow according to diet. Once the kid is a young adult he can't make anymore. 
The goal is to have hundreds of little fingers. 
The only way to do this is to make sure the kid has enough protein to make them. Hay, especially timothy, is secondary at this point. Timothy is the lowest protein hay there is. 
I see way too many goats with giant stretched out rumens, struggling to stuff enough food down their throats so that their stunted little fingers can get enough nutrients.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Since they are already on the bottle, could you keep them on the bottle for another month or 2?

Dam's nurse, when allowed to, for far longer than 2 months. When I started, I weaned at 2 months, because that is what my seller/breeder/mentor told me to do. I did not realize my goats were being stunted. I also did not realize I was filling my herd with her problems... But that's a story for a different day...


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

Following this thread. @B.yusko you're doing great it will all come together. This is all good info!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

goathiker said:


> African and Swiss goats have differing food needs.





goathiker said:


> I would not buy more grower for a few reasons I will share if you like.


I for one would love more information on both of these points.


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

elvis&oliver said:


> Following this thread. @B.yusko you're doing great it will all come together. This is all good info!


Thank you


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@B.yusko
Here is an ongoing thread on minerals you may really like reading and participating in.
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/excellent-minerals-you-know-how-i-love-me-those-minerals.194612/

Alfalfa does not grow readily in Florida, but I hear that something called Perennial Peanut Hay does, or Peanut Hay. That is a legume like alfalfa. Legumes are high in protein and other nutrients. So just an idea.

Timothy is one of the best hays for horses, not so amazing for goats or cattle. It isn't poisonous or anything, just low in protein like goathiker said.

Have you given them their shots? I do recommend both a CD&T, and also a pnuemonia vaccine. We can help with that if you need it.

Finally, a tube of Probiotics is a must to have around. The easiest to find (because it is SO well known) is Probios. Get the kind that says Ruminant, not the kind that says Equine. Almost any feed store is going to have it. I use the gel, in a tube.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Let us know if you have any further questions.


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

mariarose said:


> @B.yusko
> Here is an ongoing thread on minerals you may really like reading and participating in.
> https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/excellent-minerals-you-know-how-i-love-me-those-minerals.194612/
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link I'll check it out!

Is the peanut for protein beucase I said I'd stop with the grain now? I'm giving the alfalfa because everyone was telling me they need the calcium in it, I'm honestly not a fan of any of the feed stores near me- I have gotten a bad bail of hay I had to pull so now I get the compressed Timothy's from TSC and they look the best and the goats have been doing great off it, maybe I should look back into what @Jessica84 was teaching me about the correct amount of the medicated feed to give if they need the protein after all? Idk I thought they truly only need their hay and minerals to be good now I'm shorting them protein?  I will continue to give their one bottle a day for a while which I have no problem doing, and I'm waiting to weather them till 6 months

For the probiotics, I have the powder I have used in their water before and in their bottle when they were sick for 24 hours, I can pick up the gel next time I'm at TSC but when to use it? Only after vaccines? I thought the vitamin b gel I got is what I would use if they were seeming off or stressed, or is probios given like once monthly?

I know the younger has not had any vaccines, and not sure about the one I got when he was 3 weeks


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

goathiker said:


> Twice a day, you want them to not quite finish what they have, snacking all day. Remember, it's just hay in a different shape.
> 
> Inside the digestive tract are a number of little fingers. Each of these are covered with special cells that grab and take away nutrients.
> A new born kid has no fingers at birth, they grow according to diet. Once the kid is a young adult he can't make anymore.
> ...


So to clarify 2 cups a day? I just know the alfalfa exspands so I get nervous, they are little piggy's so should I work my way up to this amount so they don't chug it all down then have tummy problems?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

OK... First of all, you are doing fantastic. So take a deep breath. It's all fine. I'll work through what you've asked to try to clarify for you. Hold on.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

B.yusko said:


> So to clarify 2 cups a day? ... should I work my way up to this amount so they don't chug it all down then have tummy problems?


Were they mine, yes. I would start where you have started and work your way up to that level over about, say, a week?


B.yusko said:


> Is the peanut for protein beucase I said I'd stop with the grain now?


No, not at all. This is a hay/hay thing, not a hay/grain thing. I was suggesting a different roughage, more ruminant friendly, that's all.


B.yusko said:


> alfalfa because everyone was telling me they need the calcium in it


Alfalfa is high in calcium, but it is ALSO high in protein (and other nutrients, too). As you continue, you will find that alfalfa is not always a blessing. We aren't trying to confuse you.


B.yusko said:


> I'm honestly not a fan of any of the feed stores near me


I encourage you to find at least one to build a relationship with. As you learn more what you want/need and what might be available, a feed store can be your best friend in getting what you want. That does take time, and yes, bad products can happen along the way. But I don't see any way to do without them, so cultivating them seems the answer to me.


B.yusko said:


> I get the compressed Timothy's from TSC and they look the best and the goats have been doing great off it


There is nothing wrong with you getting the best you can, the best you know. But hay is one of those things that it really is best to get from a farmer, rather than a feed store. You pay a lot more at feed stores. May I suggest you look in Craigslist? Look in your newspaper? find someone who has dairy cattle or horses and just stop and ask them, "where do you get your hay? I need some quality hay and don't know where to start."


B.yusko said:


> maybe I should look back into what @Jessica84 was teaching me about the correct amount of the medicated feed to give


There is nothing wrong with that if this is what you want. I don't, and I have good goats. Others do, and they have good goats. Total overall feed management is what needs to be looked at. You have the bag and two knowledgeable people have told you it's OK if managed properly. You are all good there. Grain is high in phosphorus, so keep that in mind because you will still need the calcium to balance that.


B.yusko said:


> I thought they truly only need their hay and minerals to be good now I'm shorting them protein?


At 2 months old, most babies are still getting a lot of protein from mother's milk. As I said, dam's don't naturally wean this early. Hay can also have a lot of protein. Some doesn't (Timothy doesn't) Grain can have a lot of protein. Some doesn't (Corn doesn't) You do need protein, but choosing where to get it is the issue here. And well done on knowing you have to have minerals.


B.yusko said:


> I will continue to give their one bottle a day for a while which I have no problem doing


I'm very glad to hear that. 2 bottles a day is good too.


B.yusko said:


> I'm waiting to weather them till 6 months


They'll be really buckish by then. I'd wether at 3 months, 4 at the very latest. Be certain you get both testicles. They are still a buck with 1 testicle and they don't make the greatest of pets.


B.yusko said:


> I have the powder I have used in their water before and in their bottle when they were sick for 24 hours


The powder is fine. I like the gel.


B.yusko said:


> when to use it


Any time there is something happening with the digestive system (like you've treated for parasites) or they've been ill, or they've had antibiotics, or they are stressed, or they are in danger of Enterotoxemia. If they ever aren't hungry when they SHOULD be hungry, they get a squirt of Probios (remember, I use the gel)


B.yusko said:


> I thought the vitamin b gel I got is what I would use if they were seeming off or stressed


B vitamins help, but they help different things, in different ways. The only good way to give them is by injection, not by gel, and if you ever use Corid to treat for coccidia, then you can't use them at all because they contain vitamin B-1 (thiamin) which prevents the Corid from working


B.yusko said:


> the younger has not had any vaccines, and not sure about the one I got when he was 3 weeks


Both of them need their shots then, If you have questions about what to give, then just ask. I'd rather not add a completely new thing to this already article length post.

Hugs! You are doing great.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

B.yusko said:


> -working on adding garlic cloves into their diet too, do you recommend this as well?


Yes!!!! Garlic is wonderful - https://thegivinggoat.home.blog/2019/01/01/using-garlic-to-improve-herd-health/


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Yes!!!! Garlic is wonderful - https://thegivinggoat.home.blog/2019/01/01/using-garlic-to-improve-herd-health/


Added this site to my favorites, thanks for the good read !


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

B.yusko said:


> Added this site to my favorites, thanks for the good read !


Thank you so much!!!! Glad you enjoyed it.


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## Charity (Jun 16, 2013)

B.yusko said:


> What do you mean by rotate minerals monthly? Thanks !!


I have never heard of rotating minerals monthly. I use Pro Manna minerals for my goats. I cannot offer the minerals free choice because of the extremely high humidity here in south Texas.
WHEN USING ACV, I'VE HEARD YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO USE VINEGAR WITH THE MOTHER. Any thoughts on this?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Charity said:


> I have never heard of rotating minerals monthly. I use Pro Manna minerals for my goats. I cannot offer the minerals free choice because of the extremely high humidity here in south Texas.
> WHEN USING ACV, I'VE HEARD YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO USE VINEGAR WITH THE MOTHER. Any thoughts on this?


I think, don't know, that it is to keep the goats interested and just in case mineral mixture is a little different you may fill in the lacking mineral by changing.
I have hear that the ACV with the mother is best because nothing has been filtered out. Some swear by it, some don't.
Free choice minerals are best, just put out enough for one day at a time. Also get a good weathershed mineral. Low humidity here is 75% average is about 90%.


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

Charity said:


> I have never heard of rotating minerals monthly. I use Pro Manna minerals for my goats. I cannot offer the minerals free choice because of the extremely high humidity here in south Texas.
> WHEN USING ACV, I'VE HEARD YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO USE VINEGAR WITH THE MOTHER. Any thoughts on this?


I use this one from rual king right now, I'll be switching to a larger size but still includes the mother in it from Walmart next and it's still organic, my boys love it actually just the way it comes, everything I've heard and read is to use the one "with the mother" as well.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

B.yusko said:


> View attachment 145899
> 
> I use this one from rual king right now, I'll be switching to a larger size but still includes the mother in it from Walmart next and it's still organic, my boys love it actually just the way it comes, everything I've heard and read is to use the one "with the mother" as well.


There may be a way to get even larger than a one gallon jug at a time, some on here talk about getting their ACV wholesale.


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

Dwarf Dad said:


> There may be a way to get even larger than a one gallon jug at a time, some on here talk about getting their ACV wholesale.


Do you know if it truly has to be "store in refrigerator after opening" ? I have been now, but if I get larger sizes that may not fit in our fridge haha


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Charity said:


> I have never heard of rotating minerals monthly. I use Pro Manna minerals for my goats. I cannot offer the minerals free choice because of the extremely high humidity here in south Texas.
> WHEN USING ACV, I'VE HEARD YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO USE VINEGAR WITH THE MOTHER. Any thoughts on this?


I believe some rotate minerals for a more complex mineral range. It helps to avoid deficiencies because of the variety. We have bad humidity here, but I like this feeder: https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=AEBC122A-94BC-4521-B490-9BD767362084 - It keeps minerals flowing and doesn't let them get as humid. But it's pretty important to feed free choice minerals. And if you don't have that ability, something like replamin plus might work better than just feeding loose minerals in a controlled way. But really, feeding free choice minerals (as well as kelp: https://thegivinggoat.home.blog/2019/02/05/supplementing-goats-with-kelp-meal/) IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

And yes, Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, containing the 'mother', is best.


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## Charity (Jun 16, 2013)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I believe some rotate minerals for a more complex mineral range. It helps to avoid deficiencies because of the variety. We have bad humidity here, but I like this feeder: https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=AEBC122A-94BC-4521-B490-9BD767362084 - It keeps minerals flowing and doesn't let them get as humid. But it's pretty important to feed free choice minerals. And if you don't have that ability, something like replamin plus might work better than just feeding loose minerals in a controlled way. But really, feeding free choice minerals (as well as kelp: https://thegivinggoat.home.blog/2019/02/05/supplementing-goats-with-kelp-meal/) IS REALLY IMPORTANT.
> 
> And yes, Raw Apple Cider Vinegar, containing the 'mother', is best.


I have given them free choice Manna Pro before, but it was wasted because the high humidity caused it to become very moist, and then my goats refused to eat them. The minerals stayed in the feeder container and not ever touched by them. Essentially, I was wasting the minerals by having to throw them out.
Does this feeder help prevent the moisture from getting in the minerals? I can check Replamin Plus, as maybe that would be a better option for us. I have used Kelp before, but my goats are not thrilled with eating it. I have tried horse mineral block, but they only used it some.
I have never refrigerated my ACV, but would be interested to know if anyone else does.
I also give my goats garlic cloves.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Charity said:


> I have given them free choice Manna Pro before, but it was wasted because the high humidity caused it to become very moist, and then my goats refused to eat them. The minerals stayed in the feeder container and not ever touched by them. Essentially, I was wasting the minerals by having to throw them out.
> Does this feeder help prevent the moisture from getting in the minerals? I can check Replamin Plus, as maybe that would be a better option for us. I have used Kelp before, but my goats are not thrilled with eating it. I have tried horse mineral block, but they only used it some.
> I have never refrigerated my ACV, but would be interested to know if anyone else does.
> I also give my goats garlic cloves.


Great! Garlic is wonderful!!!!! And yes, the feeder does protect it from moisture. It holds the minerals in a storage area and flows them out when they get lower. On extremely humid days (rain for days straight etc.), the top where the minerals are eaten from can get a bit damp, but just take a finger and mix it and it's all dry again! Good as new!!!!

I don't refrigerate my apple cider vinegar.

Sometimes kelp takes a while for them to get used to. They also eat it as they need, sometimes they have more deficiencies and will eat a lot more. You might want to consider giving them kelp again.


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## Charity (Jun 16, 2013)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Great! Garlic is wonderful!!!!! And yes, the feeder does protect it from moisture. It holds the minerals in a storage area and flows them out when they get lower. On extremely humid days (rain for days straight etc.), the top where the minerals are eaten from can get a bit damp, but just take a finger and mix it and it's all dry again! Good as new!!!!
> 
> I don't refrigerate my apple cider vinegar.
> 
> Sometimes kelp takes a while for them to get used to. They also eat it as they need, sometimes they have more deficiencies and will eat a lot more. You might want to consider giving them kelp again.


Thank you for all of the great information. I can definitely try kelp again. The feeder sounds like a good answer for feeding them minerals. We have around 94% humidity tonight, and very soon will be moving to western Washington State....low humidity but tons of rain.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I second the suggestion of a different mineral... There are some really good ones out there.


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## B.yusko (Jan 6, 2019)

Dwarf Dad said:


> That is a medicated feed and should be fed at directed feed rate. From what I have (possibly) learned on here, the medicated feeds should never be fed at lower amounts because it will create "super" bugs. The medication is for coccidia which all goats have, you don't want to make a resistant strain.
> I, personally, mix ammonium chloride with my goats minerals. It is mixed at one and a half pounds of ammonium chloride to twenty-five pounds of mineral, as to what @mariarose taught me. The Purina Wind and Rain Storm is a very good
> mineral that Tractor Supply sells.
> View attachment 145587
> ...


@Dwarf Dad question for you! 
So I have gotten the rain and wind all season, the calcium ratio isn't 2:1 but since I feed alfalfa pellets now aswell that should balance everything right?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

That is the way I see it. That is what I am doing, too. 
I have a wether that went through urinary calculi, almost died very painful and had surgery so I also mix the ammonium chloride in the minerals and ad ACV to their water. The ACV may help with stones directly, I don't know, it definetly entices them to drink more water which in turn will help keep urinary tract flushed. Just an ounce per gallon will work, mayne two ounces.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

ACV, the new/ old wonder drug lol 

What it doesn't do: Acidify the system, dissolve stones, contain a plethora of vitamins minerals and amino acids. Mercola has the research on it. 

What it does do: Help properly digest minerals contained in plants. 

Really a very simple thing that does a lot of good. It doesn't need all the fake hype.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

goathiker said:


> ACV, the new/ old wonder drug lol
> 
> What it doesn't do: Acidify the system, dissolve stones, contain a plethora of vitamins minerals and amino acids. Mercola has the research on it.
> 
> ...


Good, now I do know. Thank you!


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