# teach me nutrition Alfalfa vs. Clover hay



## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Anyone feed clover? I saw a grass/clover hay advertised as 23.9% protein. That's as good or better than the alfalfa we feed. Anyone know how clover/grass mix does for nutrition?

@Damfino I think I saw you post once that you don't feed alfalfa because it binds selenium. Is this true? We deal with mild selenium deficiency here.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

My hay is grass with some clover. My goats love it.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Yes, that was me that posted about alfalfa binding selenium. Alfalfa tends to draw up and hold molybdenum, which in turn binds copper and selenium.

Cattle people are more familiar with this problem than goat people. Here are a couple of articles. They only mention the interplay of molybdenum and copper, but molybdenum blocks selenium uptake as well.

http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2003/May/CT271.shtml
https://www.canadiancattlemen.ca/2009/05/14/is-molybdenum-lurking-in-your-forages/

Every one of my does had kidding trouble consistent with selenium deficiency last year. All of my goats also became copper deficient despite a lot of bolusing. The only thing that changed was I fed alfalfa that winter. I've switched back to local grass hay and hopefully our kiddings will be smooth this season. If things go back to normal then I'll know the culprit was that lovely, green, delicious alfalfa that my goats loved so much last year.

I don't know much about clover except that if you feed too much they get the slobbers. I don't think it hurts them, but I remember one year when I lived out in western NY state my mare, her foal, and his companion goat all started drooling and foaming at the mouth like they had rabies. I called one of my equine professors and she said they called it "the slobbers. " It was caused by eating too much clover and she told me not to worry about it.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Cool. I'm going to try it.

Karen, do you notice "the slobbers" in your herd? Do you know if clover has much calcium in it? I've always liked that alfalfa has calcium to maintain lactating and preggo does. Is there anything I should watch for if I switch? @goathiker any thoughts?


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## tippycanoe (Jul 11, 2016)

The slobbers come from a fungus on a certain type of clover, not the amount of clover eaten. My horses had it one year, and the volume slobber that came out of they're mouths was....biblical. Nothing quite like getting a boot FULL of warm slobber. Doesn't hurt them at all just want to make sure they've got plenty of water to replace what they're losing.

And if I'm remembering correctly, clover has similar calcium levels to alfalfa.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Clover is a legume like alfalfa but I don't know the specific calcium content. I have never had the slobbers. I get my hay from the same local field every year.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think it’s white clover that does the drooling thing, or I guess the fungus on it. 
Years ago we bought some oat bur clover hay for the cows and they did amazing on it! That’s really as far as I can tell you on it. 
If I came across clover hay I would snatch it up. If your Goats don’t do as well on it you could always buy some alfalfa and mix in with it, or give the clover hay in the AM alfalfa in the PM


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

clover is also a no bloat legume. it is good in pastures. in hay it is more palatable than alfalfa. Goats will not just eat the leaves and leave the stems like they do with alfalfa.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Ah, so it's a fungus on the clover. Interesting. I just did a bit more research into this phenomenon and here's what I got: 

"Slobbers or Slaframine Poisoning occurs when a horse eats a white or red clover, alsike clover and alfalfa growing in its pasture or preserved in its hay. During wet cool weather, clover grows quickly, and along with it can grow a fungus called Rhizoctonia leguminicola, more commonly called black patch. Black patch appears on the leaves of the legumes as brownish or blackish irregular spots or rings that cover the leaves and stems of the plants. The black patch fungus produces a mycotoxin (fungus produced toxin) that is irritating to the horse’s tongue, gums and other mouth tissues and causes the horse to drool excessively."

It goes on to say that it's considered harmless. I've been thinking about planting clover in my fields for summer grazing. Horses and goats love it and it's one of the first plants to come up in the spring and one of the last to turn brown in the fall. It also seems very hardy. I'm not sure how much moisture it needs though, nor what type of soil it does best in.


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

Interesting article about clover for forage, which discusses bloat and phytoestrogens, among other clover issues:
https://agronomator.wordpress.com/2013/03/27/concerns-about-red-clover-phytoestrogens-etc/


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## tippycanoe (Jul 11, 2016)

Damfino said:


> Ah, so it's a fungus on the clover. Interesting. I just did a bit more research into this phenomenon and here's what I got:
> 
> It also seems very hardy. I'm not sure how much moisture it needs though, nor what type of soil it does best in.


It's extraordinarily hardy, and is one of the first plants to colonize in crappy soil - what is that, a "pioneer" species? It stands up to horses and grows like mad. I LOVE clover and encourage it's spreading whenever I can. Every animal loves it and does well on it.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Not all clovers are awesome. Which species are you encouraging, @tippycanoe? Many clovers that thrive here in my soil are not exhibiting the attributes you say.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm not really sure what kind. i am assuming it is white clover in my hay.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

White Dutch Clover is very low growing. Hard to get it to grow tall enough to be a significant source of hay.
I sow it in my pastures because it tolerates the acid clay soil here, and I want the nitrogen fixing it can do (alfalfa does NOT grow well here) It does not grow up to haying level though, and my goats don't eat that low to the ground unless forced to. Other nutritional clovers don't grow well here. and some are not good nutrition.

In my admittedly unawesome pastures, I'm starting to broadcast deer forage seeds. Here is one I'm trying https://smile.amazon.com/Whitetail-...19573843&sr=8-10&keywords=fall+deer+food+plot
Here is one I'm thinking of trying https://bentleyseeds.com/products/b...l7ix0z0UPM9HESZlC0njFXNrLIskJ-vQaAu6wEALw_wcB
Of course, neither of these will be for hay.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I use 10% Lindino white clover 20% Delany Sainfoin 20% Ladac alfalfa 25% Cicer milk vetch 25% birdsfoot trefoil in my custom pasture mix. If you noticed there is no grass seed in my pasture mix. the white clover gets better than 8 inches tall and is quite invasive. I love the cicer milk vetch It loves to be grazed. the alfalfa sainfoin and trefoil need to bee given a chance to reseed its self every two or three years.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Is that a premix you can buy or do you buy all separately and mix it?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

fivemoremiles said:


> I use 10% Lindino white clover 20% Delany Sainfoin 20% Ladac alfalfa 25% Cicer milk vetch 25% birdsfoot trefoil in my custom pasture mix. If you noticed there is no grass seed in my pasture mix. the white clover gets better than 8 inches tall and is quite invasive. I love the cicer milk vetch It loves to be grazed. the alfalfa sainfoin and trefoil need to bee given a chance to reseed its self every two or three years.


That sounds like a nice mix.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

iI have the seed mill mix it for me


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Thanks, all! So much good information here! I think I am going to get some of the clover hay and try it out.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

We have used a clover/grass hay for years, but there is not as much clover in it now. I think it's mostly timothy and not sure what else as I am lousy at identification of the grasses (my husband's dept.). 

You could always feed a little of both. We recently started adding in alfalfa hay instead of pellets. It's locally grown, we started with some square bales, but they really seem to like the round bale. We offer them both kinds of hay.


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