# Breeding 7 month old doelings, what extra precautions to take?



## Hoosier952 (Jul 21, 2017)

We have two 6 month old doelings on track to hit 80 lbs by the end of the month. Due to 4H kid age requirements, I'm taking a risk and breeding them a month earlier than suggested so any future kids will be 4 months old at fair. 

Both doelings are in good health, gaining weight steadily, UTD on vaccines, recently copper and selenium bolused, fecals looked great two weeks ago. Body scores are solidly in the 3-3.5 range. They have free choice alfalfa/timothy hay, get 2 cups each of 16% protein pellets/day, and had a good selection of browse all spring, but it quit raining months ago and now they get 1-2 hours of foraging in the woods every evening where things are still green. Free choice minerals and raisins for treats and to bribe them back into the pasture after browsing.

My biggest concerns are our water quality (high iron and high sulfur well water), their age, and the fact that these are our first goats. Although I do have a lot of other livestock experience, so I'm not completely out of my element here. I feel fairly comfortable taking this risk and have done a lot of reading on here trying to get better educated. Are there any extra things I should know when voluntarily breeding does early? I feel like most of the information is on breeding them at older ages, and I'm not sure how much of a difference that extra month or two makes.

We do have farm vets locally that are comfortable working with goats in case something goes sideways.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Your going to find later that breeding this young is not really the way to go. But precautions, be there when they kid. Although they are 80# their hips are not going to be as wide as a older goat which means less room for kids to come out as well as less room to reposition kids if need be. Second and why I no longer breed before a year. Feed the doe a lot once those kids hit the ground. They are still growing and and having to raise kids while growing is so hard on them. This is really going to cut into profit but if you don't your going to have dinky kids and or a doe that looks like crud and will give you a single if that the next breeding. You don't want to really over feed them before they have kids because this will cause bigger kids


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I don't breed my doelings unless they are 100 pounds. Just my preference.


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## laurelsh (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks Jessica for that thorough information. I have not seen it laid out that clearly about what can happen if you breed too young. I was going to breed my doeling at 8 mo. old, but after reading this, I think I will hold off a while longer and have to put up with her in-heat yelling.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Jessica84 said:


> Your going to find later that breeding this young is not really the way to go. But precautions, be there when they kid. Although they are 80# their hips are not going to be as wide as a older goat which means less room for kids to come out as well as less room to reposition kids if need be. Second and why I no longer breed before a year. Feed the doe a lot once those kids hit the ground. They are still growing and and having to raise kids while growing is so hard on them. This is really going to cut into profit but if you don't your going to have dinky kids and or a doe that looks like crud and will give you a single if that the next breeding. You don't want to really over feed them before they have kids because this will cause bigger kids


Jessica, you and I seem to be on similar philosophical tracks on many areas, even though we probably have very different physical conditions on our farms to contend with. I think we are on the same sheet of music here as well. So I'm seeking some insight from you.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I am going to agree with the majority of what Jessica said.

I typically breed my does to kid at 2 years old and everyone has done well and raised good healthy kids.

This last year, I bred a doe to kid at 14 months. It was the last year I had a specific buck, and I really wanted the pairing. I kept her fed well throughout pregnancy and lactation, but it still took a toll on her that it did/does not with my older does. I just don't think she could eat enough to grow her kids and herself. Her kids grew fine, not great, not bad, but, not near what my other does and kids growth rates are. Her recovery has been slower too; I am still feeding her extra to get her back up to where she should be. On the plus side, she kidded easily, and I got a doe kid like I wanted. I am still debating if it was worth the early breeding. We'll see how she does next year, to really evaluate how it has affected her.

Soooo....if you are to breed your kids at a younger age, feed, feed, feed. And watch them like a hawk during kidding (to make sure there are no problems) and afterward to make sure they stay as healthy as possible while nursing. Also get the kids on creep feed as early as possible. That will hopefully take some of the stress off momma goat.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I will not breed any doe until at minimum, 1 year old and of good size. Mostly though, it ends up to be 1 1/2 years old.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Jessica84 said:


> Your going to find later that breeding this young is not really the way to go. But precautions, be there when they kid. Although they are 80# their hips are not going to be as wide as a older goat which means less room for kids to come out as well as less room to reposition kids if need be. Second and why I no longer breed before a year. Feed the doe a lot once those kids hit the ground. They are still growing and and having to raise kids while growing is so hard on them. This is really going to cut into profit but if you don't your going to have dinky kids and or a doe that looks like crud and will give you a single if that the next breeding. You don't want to really over feed them before they have kids because this will cause bigger kids


Jessica, you and I seem to be on similar philosophical tracks on many areas, even though we probably have very different physical conditions on our farms to contend with. I think we are on the same sheet of music here as well. So I'm seeking some insight from you.

I've read that meat goat breeds require more age than dairy breeds. This makes no sense to me, but perhaps people have a scientific reason why this would be so. Do you place value in that position?

I look for a more mature doe look rather than relying solely on weight. As in, a doeling may still appear a doeling even though technically a safe weight. But a doeling that has a more mature look to her may be different. Do you see value in that?

When a young one does get bred and I want to support her nutritionally, I tend to rely on alfalfa pellets more than I do grain. Do you see value in that?


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## GaGoats2017 (Sep 5, 2017)

I agree with the others. I would never breed a doe that young, no matter what the breed. You will just end up with stunted mama, stunted babies, better chance for birthing complications, and will have to deal with feeding out poor looking goats.

I like to breed my retired market show does in time for fair babies too. But I skip a year of show season in between. I would never have them as show kids one year, then have their kids as show kids the following year. Just a bad breeding practice and you will end up regretting it.

If it's market goat kids your wanting, you are better off just buying your kids for next season (2018). Then breed your does for the next show season (2019). And by 2020 you will have kids from both to choose from.

It sounds like you have already made up your mind, but I just can't support that. You wouldn't breed a bitch at 6 months. You wouldn't breed a rabbit at 3 months. You wouldn't breed a filly. Just because it's more convenient and possible for them to be bred, doesn't mean it's good for them.

There is a chance you end up with healthy mama and babies. But there are reasons behind why so many experienced goats breeders go out of there way to make sure young does don't get bred.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Hopefully I make sense on my answer I'm drained so you have to forgive me if it comes out mumbled (my husband has laughed a lot at me today lol)
I honestly don't know why some claim dairy can be bred at a different age. I thought it was because dairy have smaller weights/ more smaller framed kids then boers but that doesn't make sense because a boer should be wider and more 'hippy' to have those bigger kids. Now I've heard weight and that I agree with because a dairy is not going to have the mass on them like a boer. So in a way that makes sense to me. But no I'm not overly agreeing with it but I have to admit I only have a few older dairy does and some crosses so just assuming by looking at them as well as other posts.
I fully agree on more mature looking over age or anything else.....to a point. Let's say I have a 7 month old that is just as big as a breeding doe I will still wait on her. I have done the 7 month olds and even being good sized they still fall flat on their face because they are still growing so much. Now for the most part year old good sized I have had good luck with. I have a almost year old now that no way am I going to breed at a year. So even though my guess is she's about 110 pounds she still just looks like a baby to me. I also had a doe that just looked so small to me but we were at the age that she was going to have to go to a new home or be bred. I stopped and really looked at her I realized she would be fine she was just a shorter doe and she had 9# kids no issues.
I'm not really a big grain person. The doe would have to be in pretty bad condition to put on grain. I have found that ones that need extra just taking away and making sure they get a good amount of alfalfa does the trick. The biggest issue I find with ones that I put on grain is since I don't feed grain Timmy whole herd once they are on their feet and get cut off they will stand there and cry and cry for it and slowly loose some of that condition I put on them. I don't think I have fat show goats being on brows and alfalfa but I honestly don't think they look half bad so I don't see any reason to give everyone grain.
I hope that all made sense for you if not I'll try again tomorrow


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

I am glad you posted this question as my hubby and I were just talking about our young does coming on. Based on this discussion I will definitely wait til spring to breed them. Thank you for posting this question.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All makes perfect sense.


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## Hoosier952 (Jul 21, 2017)

Thank you to everyone who chimed in. I haven't necessarily made up my mind at all. I figured breeding at 7 or 7.5 months wasn't pushing it too much based on the 80 lbs/8 months figure. 

They are a nubian and nubian/alpine cross, not boers, if that makes a difference. I saw someone mentioned dairy breeds above.

If it's going to put them at risk, we'll just breed early next fall. They can be shown another year as dry does. I'm not too excited about feeding them another year with nothing in return, but I'll just repeat "goats are pets, cows are business" when I buy feed. But we're certainly going to cut down the amount of grain they get if they are going to be free-loaders.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

That was I who brought up dairy vs meat. Because it had bad results when I relied on it, I wanted to know a respected friend's opinion.

The people who set up and run shows and determine these rules are, I presume, good solid goat owners. I wonder why things are set up with this difficulty.

In any case, well done for choosing true thrift over short term gain. Your "pets" will be much more valuable. Very wise.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm sorry I assumed they were boers :/ 
And I agree on cutting down the grain. I do the same thing since by the time my breeding season comes around for my keepers they are bred to kid at 2. I buy grain by the pallet and once my for sale goats leave whatever is left in that pallet is gone they are cut off and only alfalfa hay. I find there's just no reason to push them on feed when they have plenty of time to grow at that age......plus I don't feed my breeding goats grain so I don't want them to go on strike and stand there screaming st me for days right before I breed them lol


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Hoosier952 said:


> Thank you to everyone who chimed in. I haven't necessarily made up my mind at all. I figured breeding at 7 or 7.5 months wasn't pushing it too much based on the 80 lbs/8 months figure.
> 
> They are a nubian and nubian/alpine cross, not boers, if that makes a difference. I saw someone mentioned dairy breeds above.
> 
> If it's going to put them at risk, we'll just breed early next fall. They can be shown another year as dry does. I'm not too excited about feeding them another year with nothing in return, but I'll just repeat "goats are pets, cows are business" when I buy feed. But we're certainly going to cut down the amount of grain they get if they are going to be free-loaders.


Is it a no go if the kids wouldn't be four months old by fair time? Could you find other uses or just sell the kids? I'm just thinking if you breed later in the year you could still show these does as milkers and they wouldn't be freeloaders for a year, even if the kids wouldn't be of value to you. I typically breed my yearlings at around 10 months old, in December, when they are at least 100 pounds. They seem just fine, no kidding problems, and don't require special feed. I don't know if they are just genetically different than the ones mentioned throughout this thread, or if those few more months growing time really helps a lot.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I had nubians and nubian/boer crosses a long time ago and they did grow quicker than boers did in size, but, I still waited a year to 1 1/2 to breed them. 
If they are too young and pregnant at the same time, the feed fed, will be put more into the babies growth, than the doe's growth. 
You do not want to over feed her, that will create a lot of bad issues for her.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

We had a nubian/boer doe that favored the nubian body build. She accidentally got bred at 7mo to a FB Boer buck (snuck out when we opened the gate and he got her, ugh!). We opted to let her carry the pregnancy if she took. She had zero complications, and normal, easy birth of adorable twins, and plenty of milk. Maybe we got lucky I don't know, but she sure was a good mom. I do worry about the fact it could have stunted her growth, although she did seem to grow just fine. We sold her after weaning so I don't know. 

With Boers, I know a lot of people want to wait until they are 1 1/2yo to breed, but I will say I think it definitely depends on the doe. My kids show their does, and seems like the ones we've waited to breed at 1 1/2yo are the ones we always end up having issues with (toxemia/triplets), whereas, I can only think of one time that we've ever had a real issue with breeding to kid out at 12-15mo. 

My rule is if they are going to be bred young, then need to be 8mo/100lbs at the youngest/smallest, meaning they better be a decent sized, and mature natured doe. If they are very immature mentally, and physically we will wait.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I don't think it stunts their growth, I still have a good amount of the ones that I did breed that young and they matured to be good sized does, they were just hard to keep weight on and took awhile after weaning to get good weight on them. 
Hoosier I wonder if your girls just get extra healthy by that age.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Breeders can be different in what is best for their herd, so I guess all ways can be right, but sometimes it can be wrong too. All depends. 

Multiple kids and toxemia can be due to flushing the Does prior to breeding and not realizing it is being done. We like to feed our growing kids and first timers really well and forget it is just before breeding and it can cause multiples along with toxemia. 

I have my doe's weight down just before breeding. It is best they be that way so they are not too fat starting into the pregnancy and hopefully it will prevent some issues.


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## Hoosier952 (Jul 21, 2017)

Ranger1 said:


> Is it a no go if the kids wouldn't be four months old by fair time? Could you find other uses or just sell the kids? I'm just thinking if you breed later in the year you could still show these does as milkers and they wouldn't be freeloaders for a year, even if the kids wouldn't be of value to you. I typically breed my yearlings at around 10 months old, in December, when they are at least 100 pounds. They seem just fine, no kidding problems, and don't require special feed. I don't know if they are just genetically different than the ones mentioned throughout this thread, or if those few more months growing time really helps a lot.


I suppose we could just breed later. I just figured it would be a lot harder to get the doelings in show condition the closer to fair, and we'd likely run into the same timing issue, so we'd have to skip a breeding season or breed later and not have babies again for fair. Wouldn't be a big deal if we got doelings, but wethers wouldn't be eligible for fair the following year. And with our luck, we'll end up with a bunch of bucklings. We've had back to back years of a disproportionate number of bull calves, so I'm sure the goats will follow the trend. So much to think about. Maybe just buying more goats every year is the answer to all of our problems.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I have always bred my dairy does their first fall, so they are around 8-9 months old. They never had problems kidding and grew fine. I have been doing it this way for 30+ years, it's the way I was taught a million years ago when I first got into dairy goats. My doelings are usually the same size as their dams at 8-9 months, and continue to grow while pregnant. The past 2 years I have held them over a year due to my medical issues and ended up with fat does who kidded with singles, even when their "dry" diet was strictly controlled. My early bred does were in perfect condition at breeding and kidded in great shape. I guess it depends on your goats, your feeding program and the genetics involved.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Hoosier952 said:


> I suppose we could just breed later. I just figured it would be a lot harder to get the doelings in show condition the closer to fair, and we'd likely run into the same timing issue, so we'd have to skip a breeding season or breed later and not have babies again for fair. Wouldn't be a big deal if we got doelings, but wethers wouldn't be eligible for fair the following year. And with our luck, we'll end up with a bunch of bucklings. We've had back to back years of a disproportionate number of bull calves, so I'm sure the goats will follow the trend. So much to think about. Maybe just buying more goats every year is the answer to all of our problems.


 One thing you might consider, is to split the herd, to alternate them. Do the adult does when you need to have your wether's born for fair and then the youngsters breed a little later when they are older. Just a thought maybe? So you have something out of them and hopefully does.


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