# Tested Positive for Johnes- Now What??



## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

*UPDATED (pg 13)-Tested Positive for Johnes*

I have 2 Nigerian does. One is bred and due in February and the other is open. They came from a CAE/CL negative herd, but I wanted to get the open one bred so I retested and added on Brucella and Johnes testing since I plan to drink the raw milk.

I called in to get the rest results and they are both negative for everything, EXCEPT the open one is positive for Johnes. 

I'm trying to wrap my head around this and I just don't know what to do. What is the best course of action?


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Johnes is extremely bad and your other goat can get it. Its contracted from the feces. Your best option is to get rid of her/cull/put her down. If anything compromises her immune system she will likely not recover anyway. It is the wasting disease and y hey literally waste away before your eyes.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Oh no....I am so sorry  Yes, I would cull too....as much as I'd hate to :hug:

Here is what I found...http://www.johnes.org/goats/faqs.html


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## Amandanicole (Jun 20, 2014)

May I ask what is johnes? I never heard of it. What are the signs of it? What does it do the the animal?


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

I just got them in September, but they're already my babies.  

When I heard the news I figured culling her was unfortunately what I would need to do. 

Now a couple more questions:

Can she be rehomed to somewhere that she would be near other goats, but not in the same enclosure? I thought about seeing if my grandparents will take her since I have no way to keep her separated and I really don't want to put her down. But I also don't want to compromise the health of their goats. 

If my grandparents can't take her, is it very likely anyone else will want to? 

Since I need to cull her, I'll need to get another goat for companionship- How safe is it to bring another goat onto the property?

And finally, should I inform the previous owner? 

That's all the questions I have for now, I've never had to deal with anything like this and am so sad and overwhelmed


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Amandanicole said:


> May I ask what is johnes? I never heard of it. What are the signs of it? What does it do the the animal?


Check this link for all kinds of info on Johnes- http://www.johnes.org/goats/faqs.html


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## Amandanicole (Jun 20, 2014)

ranch_grl said:


> Check this link for all kinds of info on Johnes- http://www.johnes.org/goats/faqs.html


Ank you!


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## Amandanicole (Jun 20, 2014)

Amandanicole said:


> Ank you!


 thank*sorry,auto correct!


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

I hate to say it..her being all alone with no other goats is worse than putting her to sleep.They need other buddies.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I think I would personally put her down before she suffers....or contaminates anywhere else with it....so sad...yes, I would for sure tell the previous owner...they need to know!


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Hannah21 said:


> I hate to say it..her being all alone with no other goats is worse than putting her to sleep.They need other buddies.


What if she goes somewhere they she would be separated from other goats only by a fence? She would be able to see them, but not be in direct contact with them. Would that not be enough?


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

from what I read..their body just shuts down..it's very sad


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

NyGoatMom said:


> I think I would personally put her down before she suffers....or contaminates anywhere else with it....so sad...yes, I would for sure tell the previous owner...they need to know!


The previous owner has been horrible with replying to my emails, not offering a refund for the breeding for the one who is open, etc. I'm afraid she wouldn't get the email, maybe a call would be better?

Such a sad decision, and horrible disease! Is it safe to bring in another goat once she is gone? My other doe cannot go without a buddy


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

I would think so?I'm depressed for you  have a vet come and do it,she won't know whats happening once she's asleep,get another doe,just make sure that the doe is free from it.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Boy...that's a tough call....can you move the area they are in before adding another? I would think you'd have to do routine Johnes testing for a while. Not sure how long it lives in the soil....so sorry you are dealing with this 

I would call and tell them...this is serious. That stuff spreads....


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Here is a source I found on how long it stays in water..troughs, soil etc..

.
MAP is resistant to heat, cold, drying and acidic conditions, but does not replicate in the environment. As an obligate pathogen, MAP in the environment does die off completely, but not quickly. When a premise is contaminated by MAP-containing manure, approximately 90% are believed to die off within a few months, but MAP in low numbers can be recovered for more than a year. The relevance of this persistence at low levels to new cases of infection is not known. In Australia, MAP could be isolated (albeit from fewer and fewer samples over time) from shaded soil (including soil shaded by crops) up to 55 weeks, and in shaded trough water at 48 weeks. Even greater longevity was noted in trough sediment. MAP was isolated from grasses germinating through manure-laden soil again in the pattern observed for MAP isolation from soil: greater MAP longevity was seen in grasses grown from completely versus 70% shaded soil boxes (24 versus 9 weeks). This study’s comparison of shaded versus partially shaded sites led the authors to conclude that diurnal temperature changes was more relevant in hastening complete MAP die-off than was just the UV radiation itself, and that removing vegetation to maximize temperature changes at soil level may be beneficial. Based on these data Whittington et al. in 2004, contaminated drinking water may remain a reservoir for new infections longer than contaminated ground. This publication also provides an excellent table of prior research on MAP survival in soil. Other work from that very productive research group published in 2009 demonstrated that MAP can adhere to soil particles and that this is heavily influenced by soil pH.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

NyGoatMom said:


> Boy...that's a tough call....can you move the area they are in before adding another? I would think you'd have to do routine Johnes testing for a while. Not sure how long it lives in the soil....so sorry you are dealing with this
> 
> I would call and tell them...this is serious. That stuff spreads....


Unfortunately I cannot. I actually live in the city and only have 1 area they can be in. I can clean out the goat house and such, but obviously there's no way to remove it from the soil


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

If it were me..I would consider getting rid of them both, wait a year and try again...OR...get rid of the positive doe, clean everything with bleach, get new water and feed buckets and keep the eating from the ground to a minimum....be diligent with testing...I would test again in six months and yearly after that. I would opt to pasteurize the milk. But...with all that said...I am NOT an expert and I do not have experience with Johne's...I am just going by what I am reading on it...


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Found this...
Disinfection

MAP is resistant to most disinfectants; washable tools, troughs, and feed dishes may be treated as directed on the bottle with a disinfectant labeled as “tuberculocidal”. Since organic material deactivates the disinfectant, items should thoroughly cleaned with soap and water, rinsed and dried before the disinfectant is applied. Tuberculocidal disinfectants usually contain strong chemical compounds and should be used carefully. The instructions provided on the label for proper use and safe handling should be followed precisely.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

You've been really helpful, I appreciate it, especially since I'm still in shock and completely heartbroken. 

That being said, my fiance just spoke with the previous owner to inform her. She was totally shocked as well. This goat belonged to her mom, so she is going to speak with her and get back to us. It sounds like they may refund us for her, so there's that; though it won't solve the problem or make it any easier to cull her


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I know...sorry I don't mean to sound brash...it is not easy to cull and I hate it for you.....:hug: but the best prevention is to cull the positive ones and clean the area as well as possible and keep testing to be sure it's not passed on.

Maybe someone who has had Johne's positive goats will have more options and ideas for you...I am so very sorry 

Glad you guys called....and let them know. I'd want to know if it was me!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

How old are these goats?? Reason I'm asking is young goats can sometimes test positive but they don't have it. My vet and the friend who helps me let me know this just incase someone came back positive. Thankfully none of mine did, but I was told if 1 did I need to separate and redo the test in 2 months or 3 can't remember.... If they are under 3 this could be the case...


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> How old are these goats?? Reason I'm asking is young goats can sometimes test positive but they don't have it. My vet and the friend who helps me let me know this just incase someone came back positive. Thankfully none of mine did, but I was told if 1 did I need to separate and redo the test in 2 months or 3 can't remember.... If they are under 3 this could be the case...


They were born in April and May of 2013


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would be retesting. Where did you send the blood in? I would also do the fecal test for johnes since that is supposed to be more accurate.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I agree with the retesting... Retest and like Karen said do the fecal for it too.. Then, if still positive, I too would cull.. One, it's better for her not to suffer, but also, you don't want to spread it anymore then it already has...
I'm so very sorry you have to go through this  it's horrible :hug:


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

Try not to think of it as culling - try to think about it as preventing her from slowly starving to death. Retest first - make sure she is positive.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yep, they are young so I would do both tests to be sure.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

See? I knew there'd be more ideas... I agree...redo them and go from there...


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

ksalvagno said:


> I would be retesting. Where did you send the blood in? I would also do the fecal test for johnes since that is supposed to be more accurate.


I sent it to WADDL. I forgot all about the fecal test, I've been so frazzled since getting the results! I'll be retesting but still not trying to get my hopes up too much


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

If they're not closely related and haven't been snuggling together all their lives, I would encourage you to find a way to separate them while you wait for re-test results. If the one really is positive, the only chance at saving the other is to keep her away from additional contagious risk. With these horrific diseases (Johnes, CL) that contaminate premises, the only safe way to deal with them is to consider any suspect goat positive until proven negative. I'm hoping she comes up negative on re-test.

If she's positive - putting her down is a humane way to prevent suffering. If you love her too much to let her go, you'll watch both goats die slowly, you'll have a hard time ethically selling the kids, and you won't be able to have goats again for a LONG time after these two are gone.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

If she comes back positive again, I personally would put her down as well. I personally can't watch any of my animals suffer. Here's hoping and praying the retest comes back with negative results...


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> If they're not closely related and haven't been snuggling together all their lives, I would encourage you to find a way to separate them while you wait for re-test results. If the one really is positive, the only chance at saving the other is to keep her away from additional contagious risk. With these horrific diseases (Johnes, CL) that contaminate premises, the only safe way to deal with them is to consider any suspect goat positive until proven negative. I'm hoping she comes up negative on re-test.
> 
> If she's positive - putting her down is a humane way to prevent suffering. If you love her too much to let her go, you'll watch both goats die slowly, you'll have a hard time ethically selling the kids, and you won't be able to have goats again for a LONG time after these two are gone.


They are not closely related and have only been snuggling together since I got them in September, they were penned separately until then. I don't have the property to separate them while I wait for re-test results, so I'm not sure what to do there.

It does seem that if she truly is positive, putting her down is the best, most humane option, as sad as it makes me. I've had goats before, but they were kept in a different property from where I lived so I didn't get to see them as much as I'd of liked, these are the first goats I've had that I see and love on daily. It just makes it so hard.

Am I OK keeping the other one, and getting another doe if this one truly is positive?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, you can keep the other doe, but you will need to test regularly.., some people do it every 6 mo I do it yearly...


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

If she's truly positive, your other goat has been exposed. If you bring in a new goat, he/she will be potentially exposed as well. If the new goat is a wether or rescue, maybe you can make a moral case for putting him/her at risk, but giving him/her a better life in return.

Your math is like this: A is presumed infected until proven otherwise; therefore, B is presumed infected until proven otherwise; therefore, if you bring C into a presumed contaminated home, C will be presumed infected until proven otherwise.

It's a crap situation to be in. You want your other goat to be happy, but you can't eliminate further exposure, and - IF the infection is on your property, it's there, she's walking in it, laying in it, eating and sleeping in it. Apparently, adult goats are less likely to get it - but if "A" is positive, you can't be sure that the exposed goat is clean, and the kids can't be raised on Johnes contaminated facilities because kids get it easier. It's relatively easy to raise kids in the house until sold (if you can catch them before they touch the ground or their mom). "Catching" kids means you have to be there for birth and separate them from mom. You can't pasteurize Johnes out of the milk. You'll need clean colostrum for the kids if Johnes isn't totally ruled out. The kids can't touch anything except a clean towel on their way out of the barn. You'll want a boot wash to ensure you don't track Johnes into the house where you raise the kids until you sell them. And that assumes that the pregnant goat tests negative on the retest - because, if she lived with a (true) positive, she's high risk for actually becoming positive.

ADGA fact sheet on Johnes:
https://www.adga.org/index.php?opti...nesdisease&catid=86:cat-about-goats&Itemid=87

I don't mean to be harsh. I truly hope your test was an anomaly. I love my goats and I know how hard it is to let any one of them go, even under good circumstances. When I sell goats, I hope they'll go to a home like yours, where they'll be loved. I hope your outcome is GREAT, and your goats get to continue to live with you in good health, being loved and giving your family milk and the joy of baby goats. Just reading your thread made me sad. Just the possibility of a loved goat being positive is sad, and I hope it turns out different on retest.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Thanks. I'll probably do it in 6 months just because of the positive (assuming it wasn't false for the time being) doe, then yearly if it is negative at that point. 

I'll be retesting with both a fecal and blood test asap and praying for negative results.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

I agree, it is a crap situation. I wouldn't wish dealing with this disease on my worst enemy! 

I have been crying so much today thinking of all the scenarios, none of which are remotely good if she truly is positive. 

I appreciate all of your feedback. I think at this point I'm going to treat her as a positive and retest as soon as possible. That will give me a better idea of what needs to happen.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Wow, that is very unfortunate. Johne's is not too common, but is a devastating disease. I agree to retest, but retest with a fecal sample. The blood tests are not known for being real accurate with that disease...and being that she's young, it very well could be a false positive. Since she's been living with the other one this long, chances are, if she does actually have Johne's, that the other one is infected too. I don't think I would bother separating at this point.

Don't be upset about it...just retest and stay positive, hope for the best. Be thankful you only have two goats. I know it's tough, but things could always be much worse! :hug:


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Nicely said harleybarley....it is a sad situation...no way around it


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm so sorry :hug:

I'm not sure if anyone else put this out there, but it could be a false positive. Depending on where you are located, there is some type of organism that makes animals test positive for Johnes. We had a false positive cow-after being moved from the property, she tested negative.

I don't remember that much, but you might look into it 

Also, do you have Pat Coelby's Natural Goat Care? She has some awesome advise on trying to treat/prevent Johnes....

Again, I'm so sorry. I know how hard this must be for you :hug:


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Again, thank you all! I'm definitely going to retest, but should I bother with another blood test or only do a fecal test this time?



thegoatgirl said:


> I'm so sorry :hug:
> 
> I'm not sure if anyone else put this out there, but it could be a false positive. Depending on where you are located, there is some type of organism that makes animals test positive for Johnes. We had a false positive cow-after being moved from the property, she tested negative.
> 
> ...


I do not, I'll look into it. I'm going to look into the false positive stuff a little more as well


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I would actually do both tests... I think I'll get that book too


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

I was thinking of doing both, but using a different lab than the one I used before for the blood test


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

The only 2 labs I know of is WADDL & Biotracking, and bio only does CAE and Pregnancy testing.


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

Pat Coleby has in her book "The main mineral needed if Johnes is to be avoided is copper.As long as goats are being properly fed it is neither a risk or a possibility."

If you are willing to just wait it out and start both on copper,it might be very well worth it.

http://www.natures-acres.com/

Where I order my minerals,it's easy and her shipping is pretty fast.


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

Also this she has in her book too "Some years ago,a breeder set up with top-class goats from Johnes-free studs.His wife did not like goats and hen he was away on business,which was quite often,they were not looked after at all.In comparatively short time Johnes Disease was endemic in that herd,every animal that was sold in that eventful (and inevitable)break up was infected with it."


NO COPY RIGHT INTENDED.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> The only 2 labs I know of is WADDL & Biotracking, and bio only does CAE and Pregnancy testing.


I think there's a lab in Wisconsin that does the blood and fecal testing. Not 100% positive since everything is running together


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Hannah21 said:


> Pat Coleby has in her book "The main mineral needed if Johnes is to be avoided is copper.As long as goats are being properly fed it is neither a risk or a possibility."
> 
> If you are willing to just wait it out and start both on copper,it might be very well worth it.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Their mineral has copper in it, but it may not be a sufficient level. The link says it's sold out, do you have anywhere else you recommend ordering it from?


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Prayers being sent your way. Johnes is an awful disease and is becoming more common in the Pygmy world too. One breeder had to put down 20 goats. It's sad If it were me I would get rid of them both and buy from a tested herd later on.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

bbpygmy said:


> Prayers being sent your way. Johnes is an awful disease and is becoming more common in the Pygmy world too. One breeder had to put down 20 goats. It's sad If it were me I would get rid of them both and buy from a tested herd later on.


I agree, it is so sad  And I think not many people test for it, I hardly ever see people saying their herd is tested Johnes negative, just CAE and CL.

My plan right now is to retest to be sure it's a true positive. If that is the case, I want to keep both does until the one kids in early February. I plan to be present for the birth and catch the kids before they touch anything, bring them inside and raise them. Then at that point get rid of the does and wait a year before trying again, with does from a tested herd.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

ranch_grl said:


> I agree, it is so sad  And I think not many people test for it, I hardly ever see people saying their herd is tested Johnes negative, just CAE and CL.
> 
> My plan right now is to retest to be sure it's a true positive. If that is the case, I want to keep both does until the one kids in early February. I plan to be present for the birth and catch the kids before they touch anything, bring them inside and raise them. Then at that point get rid of the does and wait a year before trying again, with does from a tested herd.


Unfortunately Johnes can be passed to the unborn babies too...


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

California's state lab also does the tests. They charge double for out-of-state clients for some tests, so it may not be cost effective for you. You can send it to them yourself.

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/cahfs/local-assets/pdfs/fee lists/Small_ruminant_fee_list_ 9_25_14.pdf

The blood test isn't bad -- around $6. The fecal, however, is around $25. (In-state fees. Not sure if these fees would be doubled.)


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

ranch_grl said:


> Thanks. Their mineral has copper in it, but it may not be a sufficient level. The link says it's sold out, do you have anywhere else you recommend ordering it from?


If you have a Mills fleet farm?or anything of that sort?


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Hannah21 said:


> If you have a Mills fleet farm?or anything of that sort?


We have some different feed stores, but I've never seen anything like that in any of them


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I use copper boluses. You can get order them from Jeffers supply, Santa Cruz, Amazon.... I copper bolus mine every 3 months..


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> I use copper boluses. You can get order them from Jeffers supply, Santa Cruz, Amazon.... I copper bolus mine every 3 months..


Their loose mineral has copper in it- Is it OK to copper bolus them as well? I was told to wait until spring when they start to shed their winter coat to see if they need more copper


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I use manna pro loose minerals, and still have to copper bolus...


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

On ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Copasure-copper-bolus-GOATS-/161437762126


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

ranch_grl said:


> We have some different feed stores, but I've never seen anything like that in any of them


Just ask at one of those,you might get lucky!ask if they carry copper sulfate for live stock.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Hannah21 said:


> Just ask at one of those,you might get lucky!ask if they carry copper sulfate for live stock.


I don't think copper sulfate is the same thing..., I remember another post saying that it has no affect or will make them sick.. Ordering copasure boluses is your best bet...


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Copper sulfate is easy to OD them on....the rods in copper boluses are much safer as they slow release.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> I don't think copper sulfate is the same thing..., I remember another post saying that it has no affect or will make them sick.. Ordering copasure boluses is your best bet...





NyGoatMom said:


> Copper sulfate is easy to OD them on....the rods in copper boluses are much safer as they slow release.


Good to know!


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

Why aren't mine dead then?


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

They must not be getting too much....I just said it's easier to OD them on that....not an absolute! I prefer slow release to minimize likelihood of copper toxicity...


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

And if that works for you,wonderful! :wink: Goats are browsers not grazers,they eat alittle of everything through out the day. It's not like the copper is smothered in sweet feed and molasses,lick or two and they move on.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I am curious to know why copper prevents Johne's. Never heard of that, and I don't see how it would have any effect... But, I would like to read her opinion on it, or some scientific info..


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Yep, everyone does what they feel is best....and everyone's situation is different. I just decided for my herd to go with bolusing after researching the two forms of copper. And it is easier to give too much sulfate, but I am not sure on the free choice like you do, just when you drench it I know it can be too much. Also you can give chronic copper poisoning which would be over time, much easier to avoid that with the bolus.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Do the fecal. WADDL has a fecal test that they say is just as accurate as a culture and also more accurate than blood. 
http://waddl.vetmed.wsu.edu/animal-disease-faq/johne's-testing
Is PCR as good as or better than culture?
WADDL now recommends that MAP testing of feces be done by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) directly from feces rather than traditional culture. In the past, due to problems with removing test inhibitors from fecal samples, the PCR test was less sensitive than culture. However, based on more recent studies, the performance of our laboratory and other MAP-testing laboratories on the NVSL Johne's Disease Proficiency Test, and our own internal validation, have shown PCR to be at least as sensitive as culture. PCR is probably not significantly more sensitive than culture. A major advantage of the PCR test is that results will usually be available in a week or less compared to months for culture.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Please visit johnes.org for fairly unbiased info. They offer fecal testing, but it's $30 each plus the accession fee $5. They have a phone number you can call for advice. They advocate "clean" raising to maximize the chance of a baby growing up neg., but do say that babies can get infected in utero. But, after you read through their website, you can call them for help figuring out your next steps. Check WADDLs site too, they may have faster tests for fecal.

The breeder *might* consider sharing the retest cost if you asked. Some don't want to know if their herd is infected. I think a lot of us would want to know, and/or prevent having a goat put down for a false positive. I think Pavlab/Panamerican does Johnes blood testing, but I'd use WADDL or johnes.org or have a vet recommend the lab. While you're talking to the breeder, ask if the goat was vaccinated for (or possibly exposed to) CL/CLA; that might cross-react with a johns test. 

Look on this site for the post about what copper bolusing can do. The pics might help you determine if you have signs of deficiency. I bolus and offer goat minerals free choice without signs of toxicity, but my goats definitely show signs of copper deficiency. Love Pat Coleby's book, but I have my doubts whether copper would fix johnes.

I have no experience with johnes, thank god. I doubt most of us do. We can offer you what we've learned as we've walked this mostly joyful goat-filled path, but expert advice will probably do you more good (other than support - this forum is great for that!).


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Scottyhorse said:


> I am curious to know why copper prevents Johne's. Never heard of that, and I don't see how it would have any effect... But, I would like to read her opinion on it, or some scientific info..


The article in the link states that Johnes can cause a loss of copper and copper deficiency. Coleby suggests that with adequate copper, Johnes can be avoided. Both agree that copper deficiency and Johnes have an association, but differ on the cause and effect relationship.

Lengthy discussion on copper and goats, including forms of copper supplementation:
http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

A lot to digest.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

So much to digest in all of this. I really appreciate all of your support. I will be speaking with the Johnes Testing Center on Monday to hopefully get a little more info. 

I've done a little more researching and reading- From what I've recently read, the ELISA test (the test I had done) detects an immune response from exposure to all types of Mycobacteria, including Johnes bacteria. So, maybe it was caused by something else? I'm hoping to get the "hard copy" of the results on Monday so I can see what her levels were. I'll also be doing a fecal test, but they are supposed to be sent overnight to arrive Mon-Fri, so I have to wait until Monday. 

I also found this that gives me a little more hope that it was a false positive- 
"A positive ELISA classifies a herd as infected, but the ELISA test positive animal is considered a suspect. It is recommended that the suspect animal be confirmed by fecal culture within 45 days unless Johne’s has already been confirmed on the premises."

"A positive fecal culture or fecal PCR, which are official Johne’s disease tests, designate the affected animal as infected."

Does anyone know if there's laws in Washington about moving Johnes infected animals? I know there is a federal law prohibiting interstate movement of infected animals, but can't find anything state specific aside from Iowa, which states-

"The animal is restricted to the premises. The identified infected animal can moved for the purpose of slaughter only and must be accompanied by an owner-shipper statement delivered to consignee. "

The reason I ask is that when contacting the breeder about the Johnes positive test, they said they would refund for the 2 does, but they are more offering to buy them back. They want us to take payments on them, and they arrange to come get them. If she truly is positive, re-introducing her to a herd, or moving her in general just doesn't seem that wise to me.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I know I am late coming into this, but I would have her retested before i did anything drastic.

I think the vet has to report any cases of Johnes?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, Johnes is a reportable disease and the animals can move only to slaughter channels. The whole farm would be put in quarantine. Since you did this testing from home, no vet is involved, which gives you more freedom of choices. This way you can still do the right things, but save the one who is negative.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

ranch_grl said:


> So much to digest in all of this. I really appreciate all of your support. I will be speaking with the Johnes Testing Center on Monday to hopefully get a little more info.
> ...
> I also found this that gives me a little more hope that it was a false positive- ...
> The reason I ask is that when contacting the breeder about the Johnes positive test, they said they would refund for the 2 does, but they are more offering to buy them back. They want us to take payments on them, and they arrange to come get them. ...


I had a goat get an abscess in a classic CL location. My herd had tested negative for CL once, we've never had abscesses... nothing looked like CL. But I quarantined her, put biosecurity in place, had the vet come out to culture & clean it, and kept that poor goat in quarantine for weeks waiting for results - negative.

My point is, some diseases are so destructive, we HAVE to treat them as positive until we get a definite negative. We don't have to put the goat down, but we have to be super-careful to protect the farm, ourselves, and other goats/ruminants. And then most of the tests are negative and we give a LOT of hugs to make it up to the goat! And I hope yours is a false negative - but then we need to talk about mycoplasma, because that's not lovely, either, but probably won't contaminate your farm for years.

If it comes down to selling them back... you might point out the laws about johnes, but if the seller is so attached or stupid that she wants to drive johnes all over Washington, well, you can report her to the state department of ag, or let her do what she wants, or take it on yourself to fix things, at the risk you don't get your money back. Ay-yi-yi. Does the seller know what johnes IS??

You're handling a crummy situation well and responsibly. Hopefully johnes center will be very helpful. I hope this ends up being a lot of fuss over nothing!!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Just curious where at in WA? I just got an email from a lady asking for my friends contact info because she needs to test ASAP, because her herd might be infected with Johnes... I passed the info along, but I'm just curious.... She got my info off an ad on CL, so I really don't know her.., just curious is all.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> Just curious where at in WA? I just got an email from a lady asking for my friends contact info because she needs to test ASAP, because her herd might be infected with Johnes... I passed the info along, but I'm just curious.... She got my info off an ad on CL, so I really don't know her.., just curious is all.


I'm in Vancouver, but the seller is from Benton City


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Okay, not the same person, this person was in Maple Valley...


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> I had a goat get an abscess in a classic CL location. My herd had tested negative for CL once, we've never had abscesses... nothing looked like CL. But I quarantined her, put biosecurity in place, had the vet come out to culture & clean it, and kept that poor goat in quarantine for weeks waiting for results - negative.
> 
> My point is, some diseases are so destructive, we HAVE to treat them as positive until we get a definite negative. We don't have to put the goat down, but we have to be super-careful to protect the farm, ourselves, and other goats/ruminants. And then most of the tests are negative and we give a LOT of hugs to make it up to the goat! And I hope yours is a false negative - but then we need to talk about mycoplasma, because that's not lovely, either, but probably won't contaminate your farm for years.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'm hoping and praying the fecal test comes back negative and I can give her lots of hugs to make it up to her.

I didn't really want to bring it up here because I don't want to start controversy or say anything bad about the seller here, but you guys are great support and I had nowhere else to ask and it concerns me...Honestly, the seller doesn't seem all that concerned about the possibility of Johnes... She said her and her mother did some research and that from what she read, the other doe is probably not infected (I have no clue where she got this!). We told her that the other buyers should be notified, but I doubt she notified them from how she sounded. They were cutting their herd down for various reasons when I bought my girls, and I'm afraid she'll just re-sell them if she buys them back.

Still praying all this will be a bunch of fuss over nothing!


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

ranch_grl said:


> I don't want to start controversy or say anything bad about the seller here, but ...


Oh, honey, if it comes back positive and she picks the goats up, you're going to be getting a lot of private messages asking for naming names or giving clues... that's the kind of person who would stop to pick up a new goat along the way. :help:

I'd like to think that you would have seen skinny goats or some other red flag if it's really johnes. Hang in there. You sound like the kind of person who belongs in goats. It will work out in the end, one way or another.

But please keep the possibility of sending them back open. Mycoplasma isn't real wonderful either.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> I'd like to think that you would have seen skinny goats or some other red flag if it's really johnes. Hang in there. You sound like the kind of person who belongs in goats.


That means a lot, especially right now. I've raised cattle for many years and am a member of many cattle forums where the members are just bashing each other left and right. It's a nice change here.

I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe it is Johnes, or anything else really. My girls appear to be of appropriate weight, and appear healthy in general. I wanted to take the girl in question to be bred, so I did the standard CAE and CL testing; and added on Johnes and Brucella after reading that they are wise tests to run if you will be drinking raw milk.

Unfortunately we're now in a waiting phase, I'll be trying to collect a fecal sample to send in tomorrow.


















I wanted to share a couple pictures of my girls. The black & white one is Downtown, the one in question, and the brown & white one is Sky


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Awe! They are cute


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Definitely retest, although I would quarantine her while you wait. A friend had a doe test positive for Q Fever this year, and she was freaked out about her whole herd having it, but the second test at 30 days was negative.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

They're darling! OMG, the kids are going to be sooo cute!! I'm a total goat-baby junky. I will not raise meat cows because I'd probably become a baby-cow junkie.  Have you had baby goats before? They're sooooooo terrific!! 

(I hope!) I've never seen johnes (my herd tested clean on fecal, and annual blood testing is clean, but we know it doesn't always shed). Your goats look healthy, although I'd give them probiotics and probably copper bolus or change minerals. But I don't raise nigies. Downtown looks like she'd be true black-and-white with copper bolusing. I have two red/brown girls with the white stripe on the side, LOVE it. I can see why you love them!


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> They're darling! OMG, the kids are going to be sooo cute!! I'm a total goat-baby junky. I will not raise meat cows because I'd probably become a baby-cow junkie.  Have you had baby goats before? They're sooooooo terrific!!
> 
> (I hope!) I've never seen johnes (my herd tested clean on fecal, and annual blood testing is clean, but we know it doesn't always shed). Your goats look healthy, although I'd give them probiotics and probably copper bolus or change minerals. But I don't raise nigies. Downtown looks like she'd be true black-and-white with copper bolusing. I have two red/brown girls with the white stripe on the side, LOVE it. I can see why you love them!


I've had bottle baby goats before, but have never had any born from my own does- I'm so excited! I love tiny, adorable baby anythings  I'm a sucker for blue eyes too, so fingers crossed for blue eyed kids from Sky!

When I picked them up, the seller said that Downtown could use some copper, but later advised me to wait until spring and see what her coat looks like then; since their mineral has copper. But the more I've dealt with her, the less knowledgeable she seems.

I have probiotics, but haven't gotten around to giving them any yet. I think I'll give them some tomorrow, they're in need of hoof trimming as well- might as well get it all done at once! I will look into getting copper boluses as well, we used to buy them for our cows but I don't remember where we ordered from


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

You can order copper boluses from Amazon, Santa Cruz, or Jeffers supply... I copper bolus every 3 months..., and that's with manna pro minerals.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> You can order copper boluses from Amazon, Santa Cruz, or Jeffers supply... I copper bolus every 3 months..., and that's with manna pro minerals.


I'll have to get some ordered Friday- between all these goat tests and our dog's ER vet trip, our animals are just killing me!


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Is there a certain one that would be best for Nigerian Dwarfs? One I looked at was 4 grams and says not for goats under 50 lbs. The "for kids" ones were 2 grams and for up to 50 lbs


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I give my Nigerians the 2 gram ones. It's one gram per 22 lbs, so they usually need three grams, but I give them 4. It's hard to OD them on the boluses, and a little extra copper is alright


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Scottyhorse said:


> I give my Nigerians the 2 gram ones. It's one gram per 22 lbs, so they usually need three grams, but I give them 4. It's hard to OD them on the boluses, and a little extra copper is alright


Thanks, it's hard to figure out dosage for these "non standard" size goats sometimes! How often do you give them?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I give mine boluses every 3 months. I uses to give my kinders 2 gms but started giving them 4 gms because 2 wasn't enough..


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> I give mine boluses every 3 months. I uses to give my kinders 2 gms but started giving them 4 gms because 2 wasn't enough..


So 4 grams every 3 months should be fine? Or should I start out with 2 grams? I know we're really copper deficient in this area


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, I would just start out with 4gms. Some may say that's too much, but I know when I brought my kinder buckling home, he was healthy, but I could tell he needed copper. He was only 30-40 lbs. I gave him 2 gms, waited a month and gave him 2 more gms, then started the 4 gms cycle with the rest of my herd...


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Start low, look for signs of improvement (check every 3 months until you know what your goats need). No improvement/only a little improvement, re-dose in 3 months; increase dose after 6 months if needed. Good improvement, watch for how long until the improvements "fade", and 1 month less than that is probably the right time between doses. Try the package instructions - 1 gm/22 lbs every 8-12 months, adjust from there.

Dose and frequency depend on your feed, your water, and the goats' ability to absorb copper/need for copper. I put it on the calendar to check every 3 months, and I keep notes on dose and any changes (like if feet are better/worse). After a year of tweaking, I determined that I have a goat who needs a huge dose; I half wonder if she had coccidiosis as a kid (tested negative for johnes). But I wouldn't have done that dose without carefully testing (and now I watch for signs that she's reached a good body store and doesn't need so much anymore). Read up on copper bolusing for signs, it'll help you tweak to just what your goat needs.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

It takes 3 months for the effects to show? I bolused both of my bucks Oct. 21, they weigh 175# and 200# and I split a 12.5g bolus between them but they still look rough. Have loose minerals too.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> Start low, look for signs of improvement (check every 3 months until you know what your goats need). No improvement/only a little improvement, re-dose in 3 months; increase dose after 6 months if needed. Good improvement, watch for how long until the improvements "fade", and 1 month less than that is probably the right time between doses. Try the package instructions - 1 gm/22 lbs every 8-12 months, adjust from there.
> 
> Dose and frequency depend on your feed, your water, and the goats' ability to absorb copper/need for copper. I put it on the calendar to check every 3 months, and I keep notes on dose and any changes (like if feet are better/worse). After a year of tweaking, I determined that I have a goat who needs a huge dose; I half wonder if she had coccidiosis as a kid (tested negative for johnes). But I wouldn't have done that dose without carefully testing (and now I watch for signs that she's reached a good body store and doesn't need so much anymore). Read up on copper bolusing for signs, it'll help you tweak to just what your goat needs.


I think I'm going to get some 2 gram ones so I can tweak the amounts for each a little easier. Based on the 1 gm/22 lbs, 4 grams seems like a lot. But I don't know how much they are truly lacking. Starting with a small dose will allow me to observe and adjust as needed


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> It takes 3 months for the effects to show? I bolused both of my bucks Oct. 21, they weigh 175# and 200# and I split a 12.5g bolus between them but they still look rough. Have loose minerals too.


With mine I notice more when they shed their winter coats..the winter coats are not as shiny as the summer coats...


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I've got does in winter coat that still look very healthy. One buck has fishtail, the other is VERY coarse - also underweight, I'm going to worm that one but I know the other is still deficient and his FAMACHA is good.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok I'm not reading all the replies. But before you get all upset I would get her retested. Also test her poop. The blood test can come up positive if the goat was stressed or recently had pneumonia etc. I would call and speak to the staff who do the testing. They can explain this to you. I had a former friend go through this and she stopped using the blood test after finding out how easy it is to get a false positive in blood test.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

StaceyRosado said:


> Ok I'm not reading all the replies. But before you get all upset I would get her retested. Also test her poop. The blood test can come up positive if the goat was stressed or recently had pneumonia etc. I would call and speak to the staff who do the testing. They can explain this to you. I had a former friend go through this and she stopped using the blood test after finding out how easy it is to get a false positive in blood test.


I didn't know how easy it is to get a false positive blood test before posting here, so of course I was all worked up and upset for days. But now that I've gotten advice here and done some more research of my own, I will be retesting and doing the fecal test.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> I've got does in winter coat that still look very healthy. One buck has fishtail, the other is VERY coarse - also underweight, I'm going to worm that one but I know the other is still deficient and his FAMACHA is good.


Hmmm....the new buck I got is really coarse too.I have a bolusing thread and am anxious to see results...as for fishtail I have a doe who still has slight fishtail but is not low on copper now...it just hasn't grown back in since bolusing....the underweight buck...have you checked for lice?


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> It takes 3 months for the effects to show?


It doesn't usually take 3 months to see a change, but if the "official" dose is 1 g/22 lbs every 8 months, I REALLY like to wait 3 months before dosing again or dosing higher.

Doing it on the calendar overrides the urge to see instant results. See how the first 3 months go before you try a higher dose or more frequent dose. I created my system based on how other farms report they bolus - some do it as high as a cow dose, or as low as the goat bolus packaging suggests. Some farms dose as often as every 3 months, or as little as once a year. There's a huge variation in how goat farms bolus, so checking in every 3 months lets me increase the dose as needed without getting heavy-handed and overdosing.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Yeah, I wasn't going to do more without a second opinion, just thought I'd see some improvement by now. The buck with fishtail also has cruddy feet, and my does with bad feet improved after bolusing. 

I did check for lice - I know some of the does have them so I looked the bucks over thoroughly. His FAMACHA is a bit low so I am going to worm him.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ranch_grl said:


> I didn't know how easy it is to get a false positive blood test before posting here, so of course I was all worked up and upset for days. But now that I've gotten advice here and done some more research of my own, I will be retesting and doing the fecal test.


Oh good. Sorry I didn't read it all I don't always have time and wanted to be sure you did know the possibility. Glad you have a plan.

Johnes is picked up as a young kid and then sometimes they never show signs of ill health until an adult. So outward signs are not always helpful.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Alright, samples will arrive at the lab tomorrow morning- Fingers crossed!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Cool.. Praying for good results


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Yeah, I wasn't going to do more without a second opinion, just thought I'd see some improvement by now. The buck with fishtail also has cruddy feet, and my does with bad feet improved after bolusing.
> 
> I did check for lice - I know some of the does have them so I looked the bucks over thoroughly. His FAMACHA is a bit low so I am going to worm him.


Worms steal nutrients when they steal blood, so it's good to take care of worms before increasing copper.

A lot of farms give more than 1 gm/22 lbs bodyweight about once a year. I bolus quarterly. But we're "overdosing" compared to the approved dosage, so it's always good to step back, wait a bit, and really think it over before giving more. Some goats probably need more copper than others. Some farms have conditions (like high iron in water or pastures) that block copper. And seasonal variations - like drylotting during winter - can change the copper picture.

I don't think it's "bad" to give a higher dose, it's just something we want to do very carefully. And it's really good to look at the big picture - does the goat need more copper? Or less iron? Or more wormer? Or...?


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Ranch_grl, I just got my own test results back... good results. I've done a boatload of testing, but I'm still always nervous about the results (and kind of hopeful/excited that I can take something off my worry list!).

Really hoping to read "Tested negative" here real soon!


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> Ranch_grl, I just got my own test results back... good results. I've done a boatload of testing, but I'm still always nervous about the results (and kind of hopeful/excited that I can take something off my worry list!).
> 
> Really hoping to read "Tested negative" here real soon!


Yay for good results! I'm hoping to be able to post "tested negative" here soon, I want this off my worry list! The 7-10 working day turnaround time it's going to be torture.

Speaking of worming- I think my girls could use it, but I'm not sure what's safe for the one that is bred. I bought something like this- http://m.tractorsupply.com/en/store/manna-proreg;-positive-pellet-goat-dewormertrade;-6-lb But I'm not sure how effective it is?


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

If your goat has the type of worms those pellets treat, the pellets should be fine for pregnant goats. My goats don't like them. If the goat won't eat it, take their food away for up to 12 hours to make them hungry enough to eat a full dose. Under-dosing paraciticides is as bad as under-dosing antibiotics.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

The pellet forms of wormers are not very affective.. I use it sometimes but for the most part I use Valbalzen or ivomec + for a broad spectrum dewormer.. The best bet is to take a fecal sample into the vets and see what kind of worms they have, then go from there and treat..


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Agreed. I use Valbazen and Ivomec 1%. Sometimes safeguard if needed. But Valbazen CANNOT be used on pregnant does.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

NyGoatMom said:


> Agreed. I use Valbazen and Ivomec 1%. Sometimes safeguard if needed. But Valbazen CANNOT be used on pregnant does.


That's what I thought, about Valbazen. Is Ivomec safe for pregnant does? I know it is for cattle, but not sure about goats. And is Safeguard safe for pregnant does? This is my first time having a bred doe and I don't want to do anything wrong!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Yes, they are but safeguard doesn't kill off much. I only use it for my cats and when treating for Mworm....I recommend Ivomec 1% @ 1cc per 33 lbs.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Do you give that by injection or orally? One breeder told me she uses Ivomec and gives it orally, she didn't mention dosage


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes you can give the injectable ivermectin (brand name Ivomec) orally. It's 1cc per 20lbs. Repeat in 7-10 days
Safeguard will kill tapes. Must be given three days in a row


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Only REGULAR Ivomec, not Plus!


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

NyGoatMom said:


> Yes, they are but safeguard doesn't kill off much. I only use it for my cats and when treating for Mworm....I recommend Ivomec 1% @ 1cc per 33 lbs.


Sorry to go off topic... but I didn't know you could use safeguard to worm cats. What is the dose for cats and what type of worms will it kill when given to cats? I have to worm my barn cats two or three times a year and I have to get it from the vet because the cat wormer you can buy over the counter doesn't work. It's like 10 dollars a dose so if I can use Safeguard instead, I'd save a lot.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I do 1cc per 5 lbs for 3 days in a row...sorry I can't remember all the worms off hand. I would NOT give it to pregnant cats...unless you asked a vet.
I believe it is roundworm,hookworms and tapes....


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

^^^Thanks so much!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

LadySecret said:


> ^^^Thanks so much!


Here is a quote from an article on fenbendazole...

Vets also commonly prescribe this drug for cats and kittens infected with the protozoal parasites coccidia and giardia, and it may be recommended for use against the relatively rare lungworm.

Read more : http://www.ehow.com/about_5420721_fenbendazole-cats.html


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Thanks for the info and dosage! 

LadySecret- I was going to ask about the Safeguard for cats too. The OTC stuff just doesn't work and our very wants to charge $40 per cat to see them and $16 per cat for the meds (they won't prescribe for all the cats without seeing all of them). We have 4 cats, that's just not feasible


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

^^^ It's terrible that your vet won't give you a dewormer without seeing the cat first. It isn't something that requires a vet to diagnose. My vet will give me dewormers, flea and tick meds (OTCs don't work very well anymore for me), and antibiotics for bite abscesses for any of my cats. My vet will even give me 2 or 3 doses of a pain med to have on hand for when my anatolians get injured. David just can't resist a porcupine. The big dummy lol. I love my small animal vet. My only complaint is that he's expensive. I wish he would see goats.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Only REGULAR Ivomec, not Plus!


Yes you can give the Ivomec PLUS. The Plus is the only thing that will kill liver flukes. And it is safe for pregnant goats


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I had a doe miscarry last year after being told Ivomec Plus was safe. It is not tested or labeled for pregnant animals.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

LadySecret said:


> ^^^ It's terrible that your vet won't give you a dewormer without seeing the cat first. It isn't something that requires a vet to diagnose. ...


Vets have to have a "patient relationship" in order to prescribe anything. So they can't prescribe to an animal they've never seen. And then _some_ vets interpret the rules as meaning they have to have seen _every_ animal covered under the prescription, or they have to have _examined_ the animal within the last year. It's nice when vets are a more flexible, but it's not the vet's fault if FDA stupidly classifies a drug as rx-only.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Patient relationship is one thing, but some vets go overboard just to get your money for the exam. I won't patronize ones like that. If they've seen my animals before, can diagnose by my description and can't do more in person than administer the meds I expect them to not waste my money or their time coming out.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Any news yet?


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> Any news yet?


No news yet  I was going to call today, but they say 7-10 working days and the samples got there last Wednesday, so it might be too soon. I'm getting impatient!


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

So, I have another question. 

We sent samples for a direct PCR test, as well as a culture. As I'm reading now, it says the direct PCR has been validated in cattle only, but that was last updated in 2010. I haven't heard anything from the lab yet.

The direct PCR is supposed to take 7-10 working days, and 1-8 weeks for the culture. My question is- if the direct PCR can be done for goats now and comes back negative, can I be fairly confident she is negative with that result? Or should I wait for the culture results before being confident of the results?

UPDATE- Did a little more reading and it says the direct PCR can be used for adult goats, over 18 months, which they are.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

So I got the results back from the direct PCR test- Negative! 

Now, I have been under the impression that the fecal test is very accurate and that the blood test can easily have false positives. The woman at the testing center said the test was negative, meaning she doesn't have Johnes, or isn't shedding right now. She also said the blood test is fairly accurate and she could just not be shedding. They recommend re-testing with both tests in 2-3 months. 

So, the good news is the land is fine and my other doe is fine- since she's not shedding. But the question is, do I get rid of her before she does start shedding and infecting the land (since there's a chance she does have it)? Or do I take the chance and keep her, re-testing in 2-3 months? 

:shrug: :help:


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Personally I would keep her and retest in a few months.... I seriously doubt she has Johnes.. That's just me though..


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

ranch_grl said:


> So I got the results back from the direct PCR test- Negative!
> 
> Now, I have been under the impression that the fecal test is very accurate and that the blood test can easily have false positives. The woman at the testing center said the test was negative, meaning she doesn't have Johnes, or isn't shedding right now. She also said the blood test is fairly accurate and she could just not be shedding. They recommend re-testing with both tests in 2-3 months.
> 
> ...


I just read through this whole thread and am SO HAPPY for you!


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

ranch_grl said:


> So I got the results back from the direct PCR test- Negative!
> 
> Now, I have been under the impression that the fecal test is very accurate and that the blood test can easily have false positives. The woman at the testing center said the test was negative, meaning she doesn't have Johnes, or isn't shedding right now. She also said the blood test is fairly accurate and she could just not be shedding. They recommend re-testing with both tests in 2-3 months.
> 
> ...


I would keep her but isolate her from the other doe and retest in 2-3 months doing both the fecal and blood test.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

You either have a _false_ positive, or you have a _correct_ positive followed by a negative from a theoretically more-reliable test. You are playing the cards now.

Maybe she doesn't have johnes, but she has something else that made the johens test react. Like mycoplasma, or a vaccine.

Maybe she doesn't have johens at all. Or anything else.

Maybe she has johens but stopped shedding.

What do you want? Do you want to keep the light of your life? Or do you want guarantees that your goats are healthy? Whatever you do, you're going to be somewhere in between. You cannot guarantee goats 100% for anything.

Do you love this goat? Or do you love the idea of a negative herd?

Because, where you're at right now - you have to pick. You have reason to doubt her. You have a possibility of getting a refund (if the seller makes good on payments). The tests may be negative for the next year, two years, and you'll have doubts. You can send the goat back, and you'll have doubts.

You tested with the best test. Maybe she's not negative, and she just isn't shedding. If she tested negative at purchase, would you be okay with that? Or do you now have enough doubts that you want her gone? That's your answer.

If you love her, and she tests positive later, you'll have to change some things. If you hang onto her for a few more months and test again - will you still have the option to return her? Or will you be sending her off for slaughter or trying to place her with a rescue if she tests positive?

Whatever choice you make now is a gamble. The _test_ says the money is on _negative_. Gambling is never a sure thing. If you need a sure thing, send her back. But the next goat is a gamble too. You could buy another goat who tests negative, and still be in limbo whether it's a true-negative or a not-shedding-negative. If you need negative-negative, buy from a herd that has tested a few times. That's the most reliable gamble.

I'm glad you got a negative. I was hoping for a negative, and a big happy day for you. But I'm hearing doubts instead of celebration. I seem to recall you did two tests? Are you comfortable waiting for the other test to come in?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I would talk to more at the lab then just the person giving you the results.


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## Hannah21 (Jun 17, 2014)

May as well wait 2-3 months.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> Do you love this goat? Or do you love the idea of a negative herd?
> 
> You tested with the best test. Maybe she's not negative, and she just isn't shedding. If she tested negative at purchase, would you be okay with that? Or do you now have enough doubts that you want her gone? That's your answer.
> 
> ...


I can't believe how long this thread has gotten- I appreciate everyone's feedback and support more than you know!

I am very happy for the negative result, don't get me wrong. However, the results form states- "_When interpreting these direct PCR results, please bear in mind that this assay has been validated for cattle only. We recommend a confirmatory fecal culture in other species._".

Honestly, I love the goat, I love both of my goats; but I also love the idea of a negative herd. I like the idea of not having to worry about my goats being sick, the ground not being contaminated, and being able to sell the kids easily with a clear conscience.

If I keep her for a few months and re-test, I'm not sure if I'll still have the option to return her; I haven't had a chance to speak with the seller since getting the result. I have connections with a rescue in the area that could probably get her placed if she were to test positive. My only issue with waiting and re-testing is that if she tests positive then, she's shedding and the disease can probably be spread to the other doe and her kids, since they'll be born around the re-testing time. Not to mention it being on the property- I wouldn't be comfortable bringing another goat home.

I did do 2 tests- the Direct PCR (the negative result), and a culture. The culture takes 1-8 weeks to get results for. Since I have already sent off for the test, I'm going to wait for that result and go from there.

Would doing another blood test while I wait for the culture result do any good? Am I at all likely to get a different result? I can't stand waiting (for anything really!) and can't think of anything I can do in the meantime.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Well in that case wait until the culture test comes back... There are so many false positives in young goats with the blood test, that my vet and my friend all reassured me that it could happen, and not to worry.. Doing another blood test at this point wouldn't matter much... I sincerely doubt she has it, I think it was just a false positive is all..


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I would do another blood test if the cultures come back negative. I know that they say that the test is accurate but they have to say that in someway because otherwise why are they taking your money for the test.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

If you love the goat enough to wait, give up on a refund, and place her with a rescue.. that sounds like an answer to me.

If the blood test was a false positive, chances are, re-doing it would come back negative (or maybe indicate that she doesn't have Johnes, but has something else messing with the results). But the labs are NEVER going to tell you "don't worry now." Because they can't do that. They can't take the liability if they're wrong, and no test is 100% accurate really.

Whatever you decide, there will be uncertainty. That was my point that you WILL have doubts, whether you keep her or send her back. You'll have to take an educated gamble, and it's going to come from your own heart, because no one - not us, not the labs, not a vet - can tell you "this is certain." 

But a negative fecal is a strong hint.


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## Zzpygmies (Oct 31, 2014)

I would always worry that the disease is laying dormant in this doe.. And with this disease being such a horrible one, I would never take the chance..

I would count my blessings that she isn't shedding on my property and send her back..

If these were the only goats I planned on having, and I didn't plan on breeding, then I wouldn't worry.. But it sounds like you want sell kids.. And if you sell kids ( even to someone who knows the risk) they could take the kid and sell the kid's kid to a innocent newbie and now the disease has spread to three different pastures.. 

I would never risk my other goats or my property with a " probably not"


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Johnes is one that I'm very wary of, but I know what it's like not wanting to let go of them. If it were me I'd isolate until I had negatives on ALL test types. If she is still positive after re-testing I would put her down; even if she's placed through a rescue with full disclosure she could contaminate the soil where ever she lives, which might affect future animals.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Zzpygmies said:


> I would always worry that the disease is laying dormant in this doe.. And with this disease being such a horrible one, I would never take the chance..
> 
> I would count my blessings that she isn't shedding on my property and send her back..
> 
> ...


This sums up my thoughts very well. I only have a limited amount of "goat property" and I really don't want to compromise it.

The lab said that when you're testing because of a positive blood test, you're actually better off to test with another blood test, since the fecal will only tell you whether they're shedding or not.

I'm going to retest with a blood test and go from there.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Johnes is one that I'm very wary of, but I know what it's like not wanting to let go of them. If it were me I'd isolate until I had negatives on ALL test types. If she is still positive after re-testing I would put her down; even if she's placed through a rescue with full disclosure she could contaminate the soil where ever she lives, which might affect future animals.


My problem is I don't have a way to isolate her :/


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

You're doing another blood test though, aren't you?

I think the lab is scaring you. I haven't had Johnes, haven't had a positive test for it... I would hope the lab is smarter than me... but I question their advice. You tested a young goat with a test that can give a false positive, especially in young goats. And the fecal is negative. Yes, _officially_, that just means the goat isn't shedding. For what it's worth.. I did johns fecals on my entire herd after I got them - all negative - and I do blood tests because "maybe" negative just meant no one was shedding. My blood tests have all been negative, too. Sometimes a negative fecal happens because the animal _is_ negative. Hopefully, _most_ of the time. That's why they're the gold standard!

If the blood test was a _false_ positive - a retest will either give a negative, or it will give another false positive. It would depend on what made it give a false positive (active mycoplasma infection, for instance, might continue to skew test results, but immune dip related to the stress of moving might resolve). A _comfortable_ false positive would probably resolve by the next test. But you've already got a lot of testing money into this goat. But if it gives you more comfort, the only harm in doing another test is .. money, and sticking a needle in the goat again.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> You're doing another blood test though, aren't you?
> 
> If the blood test was a _false_ positive - a retest will either give a negative, or it will give another false positive. It would depend on what made it give a false positive (active mycoplasma infection, for instance, might continue to skew test results, but immune dip related to the stress of moving might resolve). A _comfortable_ false positive would probably resolve by the next test. But you've already got a lot of testing money into this goat. But if it gives you more comfort, the only harm in doing another test is .. money, and sticking a needle in the goat again.


I am going to test again with the blood test- I'd like to know if it's positive because of something else anyway and I assume if the blood tests comes back positive again, she truly is positive for Johnes or has something else causing the positive? I already have about $200 into her in tests alone, one more blood test isn't going to cause much harm- except sticking her with a needle again.

I read somewhere about a blood test for Johnes for goats that is less likely to give false positives due to certain vaccines and such. I'm going to try to find the info again.

I'm also going to try to get some of my vet contacts opinions, as well as read up on it more. With the holidays I've just been so busy recently.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

I wanted to wait until after the holidays to retest, so I sent off a sample Monday. I got the results today and she is positive with a "value" of .98. An article states that this level is moderate level of serum antibodies to MAP. Odds are at least 30:1 that this animal is infected and is likely shedding MAP bacteria in feces and milk. If confirmed by PCR/culture, animal should be culled from herd.

I was able to speak to Dr. Kreig, who wrote the article, before sending in this last sample. Her and my vet friend both said that a second blood test from a different lab coming back positive would make them confident calling the animal positive.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Oh no. I'm sorry.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

This is so weird and just goes to show how these tests aren't always necessarily accurate. So two different blood tests, from two different labs came back positive, but the fecal tests came back negative? That is truly bizarre. The fecal tests are supposed to be most accurate. One or more of the labs are wrong with their results...so I would be irked. I'm sure you're frustrated and not sure what to do. :hug: I'm so sorry and hope you are able to easily make a decision.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

KW Farms said:


> This is so weird and just goes to show how these tests aren't always necessarily accurate. So two different blood tests, from two different labs came back positive, but the fecal tests came back negative? That is truly bizarre. The fecal tests are supposed to be most accurate. One or more of the labs are wrong with their results...so I would be irked. I'm sure you're frustrated and not sure what to do. :hug: I'm so sorry and hope you are able to easily make a decision.


The vets said that the fecal tests will only show if she has the disease AND is shedding. Two positive blood tests (from 2 different labs) basically say that she has Johnes, but the disease hasn't progressed enough for her to be shedding at this point.

I have pretty much come to the decision of putting her down, as much as it saddens me ;(


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

harleybarley said:


> You're doing another blood test though,
> 
> If the blood test was a _false_ positive - a retest will either give a negative, or it will give another false positive. It would depend on what made it give a false positive (active mycoplasma infection, for instance, might continue to skew test results, but immune dip related to the stress of moving might resolve). A _comfortable_ false positive would probably resolve by the next test. But you've already got a lot of testing money into this goat. But if it gives you more comfort, the only harm in doing another test is .. money, and sticking a needle in the goat again.


How would someone find out if an active mycoplasma infection caused the positive test results? Is there a test specific for that?


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

glndg said:


> How would someone find out if an active mycoplasma infection caused the positive test results? Is there a test specific for that?


This is what I found regarding that- "Another problematic aspect is that there are no laboratory tests that guarantee your animals are mycoplasma-free. The pathogen is capable of lurking undetected within an a-symptomatic host. Unless an animal is "shedding" during the test your results will be negative. So while you may never have had any animals ill or with symptoms of mycoplasma, you cannot know for sure that your herd is mycoplasma free. Only when symptoms appear and tests are done specifically for mycoplasma will you know"

I couldn't find much more on it.

The vets said that the test done by the Johnes Testing Center is the most accurate. They said WADDL has a lot of false positives. Dr. Kreig also said that the test can only be properly interpreted with values- as given with the JTC test. Here's a link to part of her article- http://www.npga-pygmy.com/resources/health/johnes_alert.asp


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Oh wow! I'm so sorry;( I think it would be best to euthanize, so sad;(


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> Oh wow! I'm so sorry;( I think it would be best to euthanize, so sad;(


That's unfortunately what every vet I've spoken to has suggested. I was preparing myself for this, but no amount of preparing could've helped ease the heartache. I'm so sad ;( But counting my blessings that she's not shedding. I keep telling myself it's what's best for her, as well as my other doe, but it just isn't easy!


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

I read the article and found this interesting:
"One contributing reason for modest symptoms and low test scores in pygmy goats may be the common use of medicated feed that contains monensin (Rumensin) to control coccidiosis. In dairy cows, monensin usage was associated with reduced occurrence of ELISA-positive milk tests, and calves fed monensin had fewer culture-positive fecal samples. Even without monensin, it is known that infected goats shed fewer MAP bacteria than cattle or sheep."

It sounds like monensin helps prevent the disease? Another thing I noticed was that with the results she had, it said that it was likely being shed in milk and feces....which it wasn't.
IDK, it doesn't black and white. Sorry you are going through this.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

glndg said:


> I read the article and found this interesting:
> 
> "One contributing reason for modest symptoms and low test scores in pygmy goats may be the common use of medicated feed that contains monensin (Rumensin) to control coccidiosis. In dairy cows, monensin usage was associated with reduced occurrence of ELISA-positive milk tests, and calves fed monensin had fewer culture-positive fecal samples. Even without monensin, it is known that infected goats shed fewer MAP bacteria than cattle or sheep."
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why it says there are low test scores in Pygmy goats... Yes there may be less positives than cattle but I know more Pygmy breeders that have it than don't have it... And a lot of the ones that say they don't have it don't test for it. We just recently had a positive come up. Of course, we put her down immediately not wasting any time because her body condition was already going down. We tested every goat in the herd and luckily they were all negative. We are starting to test every 2 months to make sure we don't get anymore positives. It is a horrible diease and I'm not sure there is any way around it besides making sure you buy from a herd that test AT LEAST 2x a year.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

bbpygmy said:


> I'm not sure why it says there are low test scores in Pygmy goats... Yes there may be less positives than cattle but I know more Pygmy breeders that have it than don't have it... And a lot of the ones that say they don't have it don't test for it. We just recently had a positive come up. Of course, we put her down immediately not wasting any time because her body condition was already going down. We tested every goat in the herd and luckily they were all negative. We are starting to test every 2 months to make sure we don't get anymore positives. It is a horrible diease and I'm not sure there is any way around it besides making sure you buy from a herd that test AT LEAST 2x a year.


I'm sorry that you've had to deal with this as well  It is such a horrible disease and not many breeders test for it, I always see them saying their herds are CAE and CL negative, but nothing about Johnes.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

ranch_grl said:


> I'm sorry that you've had to deal with this as well  It is such a horrible disease and not many breeders test for it, I always see them saying their herds are CAE and CL negative, but nothing about Johnes.


To me Johnes is the worst diease of them all because it literally eats them from the inside out... I try to encourage breeders to test for Johnes. Just because a goat looks healthy does not mean that it is in the clear. If you do not catch it before the goat starts shedding then your property is now contaminated.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Here is a post that a fellow breeder had posted on Facebook "Ohio Saturday April 26th 4:30 pm. I sit here now with tears pouring down my face sometimes so many I have to stop writing because I can't see what I am doing. The last two months going by with out seeming to be able to catch my breath. I have a large barn loft and decided to go up there where I have started planting some flats with seeds to start new life, while I wait for one to end...waiting....thinking and waiting..... There it is the crack of a gun shot and I know my innocent goat is dead. I can't see the flats and dirt through my tears as I sob. I walk to the loft window and look down in my pastures at my goats enjoying the sun with tears rolling down my face and can not help think what could I have done to prevent this and I say to my self you did your best but Johne's disease does not care if you test your goats annually, that you sanitize and keep your barn clean, it did not care that I bought only from tested negative herds or reputable breeders. It does not care if you win grand champion or national champion. It does not matter that the goat tested negative on it last test. It did not matter that the goat was plump and healthy the day you put him down you could have taken him to the show ring to win a rosette. Nor that the goat is only 10 months old. 

January 2014 I send in 29 fecals for my annual testing. 10 days prior to my getting the test results a 23 months old starts scouring I think nothing of it she looks healthy she probably needs coccidiosis treatment or over indulged on dinner the night before. SEVEN days later I get it to stop. She has gone from a normal healthy goat to under weight in a week, 3 days later I get my test results and she is emaciated. 28 negative one positive. She is put down the next morning and I cry as my heart breaks for that sweet tail wagging doe that was bottle raised.

April 2014- my vet teaches me how to draw blood so that I can test blood/serum whenever I want at half the cost through Wisconsin. I have a long road of extensive expensive testing ahead of me. 29 fecals $900. Blood test through my vet $15 each. Blood through Wisconsin including equipment and shipping $7 each. 

Mid April I draw blood on 22 goats including goats under one year and one fecal.

April 23rd I get my blood/serum results ALL negative. 21 goats at 0.00 1 10 month old goat 0.08 which is still negative.

April 24th I get that 10 month olds fecal results-positive.....but wait a minute he just tested negative on his blood test taken the same day and don't most say to test starting around 18 months? This goat looks healthy and I could show him, sell him, use him for breeding etc and who would know? But of course I would never do that. Not only is he positive but he is shedding the paratuberculosis in his feces and possibly his semen. 

So who's fault is this? No ones, this disease has been around for longer than any of us. It is not my fault, I did and will keep doing the best by my animals. It is not the breeders they did not know. I know I am not alone as I know many who have been honest about it, which is the only way to be. 

I just would like to spare many the heartbreak that those of us who have lost one or more animals to Johne's Disease. Educate yourselves. I constantly hear people say "all my goats look plump and healthy and we have never had a problem nor have the people we purchase from" with out testing I may have thought that doe died from several other causes since diarrhea is not usually a symptom in goats. Who knows how long the other would have shed and further damaged my herd before I caught it, luckily the last few weeks he has been penned alone and I will sadly never have any kids from him. 

Do not bother to hunt the herd book as these goats never got put in my name and have been removed from my website in order to give others time to notify those they need to. 

Over the lasts couple months I have made permanent changes to the way I will be doing herd management, sanitizing, testing, and more to hopefully prevent/contain this the best I can. I thank Elaine N. Krieg for her endless hours on the phone with me educating and comforting. I am very grateful for your knowledge and encouragement. I thank the University of Wisconsin who had stated that their has been a major increase of positive PYGMY goat results. Their knowledge and sympathy is outstanding. They urge any who have questions to contact them and I am willing to talk privately with any who have concerns or deposits with me ( I have notified most of you but a few I have not got to and will refund any deposits if you wish)Their website has so much helpful information. ALSO thank you to my loyal friends and buyers who have stood by me with love and encouragement.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I just read the entire post and I was really hoping that your doe was negative. I am so sorry that she isn't. 
It sounds like you will be doing the right thing, but it sure is hard to put a good animal down. The only bright (??) spot is that goats do not fear death like most people do. She won't suffer. But, again, I am so sorry that you will have to deal with the loss of your goatie friend.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

bbpygmy said:


> Here is a post that a fellow breeder had posted on Facebook "Ohio Saturday April 26th 4:30 pm. I sit here now with tears pouring down my face sometimes so many I have to stop writing because I can't see what I am doing. The last two months going by with out seeming to be able to catch my breath. I have a large barn loft and decided to go up there where I have started planting some flats with seeds to start new life, while I wait for one to end...waiting....thinking and waiting..... There it is the crack of a gun shot and I know my innocent goat is dead. I can't see the flats and dirt through my tears as I sob. I walk to the loft window and look down in my pastures at my goats enjoying the sun with tears rolling down my face and can not help think what could I have done to prevent this and I say to my self you did your best but Johne's disease does not care if you test your goats annually, that you sanitize and keep your barn clean, it did not care that I bought only from tested negative herds or reputable breeders. It does not care if you win grand champion or national champion. It does not matter that the goat tested negative on it last test. It did not matter that the goat was plump and healthy the day you put him down you could have taken him to the show ring to win a rosette. Nor that the goat is only 10 months old.
> 
> January 2014 I send in 29 fecals for my annual testing. 10 days prior to my getting the test results a 23 months old starts scouring I think nothing of it she looks healthy she probably needs coccidiosis treatment or over indulged on dinner the night before. SEVEN days later I get it to stop. She has gone from a normal healthy goat to under weight in a week, 3 days later I get my test results and she is emaciated. 28 negative one positive. She is put down the next morning and I cry as my heart breaks for that sweet tail wagging doe that was bottle raised.
> 
> ...


That is soo heartbreaking! ;(

I believe I caught it early enough in my doe that she has not started shedding- she wasn't shedding when I did the fecal. So I *believe* my other doe will be OK, but I'll be retesting frequently to be sure. I'm also lucky that I only have 2 does, not a huge herd.

I've learned so much through this experience, even my very friend was impressed with my knowledge and interpretation of the disease, I actually knew more about it than he did! The way I had to learn about it is very unfortunate, but I'm glad to have the knowledge now. I wouldn't wish this disease on anyone


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Goats Rock said:


> I just read the entire post and I was really hoping that your doe was negative. I am so sorry that she isn't.
> It sounds like you will be doing the right thing, but it sure is hard to put a good animal down. The only bright (??) spot is that goats do not fear death like most people do. She won't suffer. But, again, I am so sorry that you will have to deal with the loss of your goatie friend.


I appreciate your support! Everyone here is great, thank you all!


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

This is what we all fear when we send those vials off. I'm glad you retested and sought advice from multiple sources. I'd hate to be in your shoes. In 3 months I will be sending off Myras blood work since she's not from my herd. (I literally rescued her at three days old) I'm terrified to send the blood work off. You never know for sure.

Hugs and thanks for being responsible.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Dayna said:


> This is what we all fear when we send those vials off. I'm glad you retested and sought advice from multiple sources. I'd hate to be in your shoes. In 3 months I will be sending off Myras blood work since she's not from my herd. (I literally rescued her at three days old) I'm terrified to send the blood work off. You never know for sure.
> 
> Hugs and thanks for being responsible.


Fingers crossed for good results for you! Sending those vials off is so nerve wracking


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

WOW I cant believe I missed this thread! I read through the entire 17 pages of it too  Now I need to chime in.

First off Copper, regardless of the kind CAN NOT AND WILL NOT PREVENT a goat from contracting Johnes. It is simply one of the 4 most important minerals a goat needs in high levels to maintain a great immune system. Zinc, Magnesium and Selenium being the other 3. So although it will not prevent or make them immune to Johnes, it will help them fight it and anything else that threatens their immune system.

Second, there is a huge difference in copper. Sulfate based minerals that are taken orally are the least effective as they do not have the molecule needed for the body to absorb the copper in that form. Yes they will absorb some but most is just passed through their system. The only time this does not apply is when the mineral is injected. Carbonate based minerals do have the extra molecule so are much more effective taken orally such as in mineral mixes. Boluses are actual small copper rods so do not apply. They are dissolved and absorbed.

And lastly there is an option that you might consider and thats just keeping your two goats. Dont breed them, just enjoy them. It could be many years before they start to show sighs of Johnes. And in that time you could give them a great life. Then when they are gone, wait 18-24 months and then maybe start fresh. I say wait this long cause I have found studies that have show Johnes to last much longer in the prefect conditions then the typical year that is accepted. But if you plan on growing a herd, and the results come back positive. Cull them both and wait over a year before you try again.

Some facts about Johnes. Johnes is most often contracted from dairy cattle. Johnes can be caught by any ruminate animal. Now I want you to really think about this next fact. 80% of ALL licensed dairys in the USA are infected with Johnes. 80%!!! People who buy a few day old calves from a cow dairy, raise them up and then turn them out onto winter hay fields are a common means the disease is transferred. Lots of hay growers do this as they can rise young stock during the winter months on their hay fields, sell them off in the spring before the hay starts to grow again. OR large growers will sell grazing rights to fields that the hay was to short to harvest but to long to leave through the winter. Granted they are most likely going to lease to a beef cattle herd but sheep are another common animal that is used on hay fields. Leaving the ground infected and in turn infecting the hay that is harvested, sold and fed to other ruminate animals. Most hay growers have no idea the danger they are putting their clients animals in. The next time you go to buy hay, you need to ask 2 questions. First do they run anything on their crops in the off season. Second, do they know what Johnes is.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

^^^That's scary. I've never thought about what might have grazed in the field my hay is grown.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

TDG-Farms said:


> Now I want you to really think about this next fact. 80% of ALL licensed dairys in the USA are infected with Johnes. 80%!!!


:shock: Oh man.............


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Eeks Dave! That is scary stuff... Thanks for the info though... More questions will be asked when purchasing hay this summer...


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Very scary and good to know about the hay fields. Would grazing horses in hay fields pose the same (or different) health risks?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Horses are not ruminate animals so they cant catch Johnes


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

If you have no plan to get more goats, why not enjoy the two you have? Give them a good life and if/when they start to show symptoms put them down


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

sassykat6181 said:


> If you have no plan to get more goats, why not enjoy the two you have? Give them a good life and if/when they start to show symptoms put them down


The problem is that I DO plan on having more goats, my other doe is bred and I'd like to continue breeding. My fiance's mother is considering taking her- they don't have any other livestock and wouldn't be getting any more, other than maybe a wether to keep her company.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Ok then. Honestly if it were me, I'd wipe the slate clean I'm sorry you're going through this.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The problem is, if the doe does have Johnes then its feces have already contaminated your ground. So although its unlikely that the ground is heavily contaminated with the limited time they have been on there, you are still going to have to worry about your other goat and any other goat that you keep for at least the next 2 years. But the risk will be very real. Another thing to consider is that you will not be able to sell anything without disclosing your positive status and making sure a buyer understands what they are getting into.

So you posed the question, what now? Aside from waiting on confirmation of a positive retest, there are 17 pages of opinions on what to do. Most tell it like it is. Cull, wait and try again is the intelligent choice. Anything else is a risk if you have plans to keep breeding and or selling your goats. Now its up to you to decide what you are going to do.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

With a negative fecal, and negative test on the other doe I think I would be ok with keeping her and retesting often (maybe twice a year) until you're sure she didn't contract it. But Dave's right about disclosing when you sell kids, unless you can move the goats to an entirely different part of the property.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

TDG-Farms said:


> The problem is, if the doe does have Johnes then its feces have already contaminated your ground. So although its unlikely that the ground is heavily contaminated with the limited time they have been on there, you are still going to have to worry about your other goat and any other goat that you keep for at least the next 2 years. But the risk will be very real. Another thing to consider is that you will not be able to sell anything without disclosing your positive status and making sure a buyer understands what they are getting into.
> 
> So you posed the question, what now? Aside from waiting on confirmation of a positive retest, there are 17 pages of opinions on what to do. Most tell it like it is. Cull, wait and try again is the intelligent choice. Anything else is a risk if you have plans to keep breeding and or selling your goats. Now its up to you to decide what you are going to do.


She had a negative fecal test, both direct PCR and culture, so she is not shedding. She is a young goat, and from what I understand about the disease and how the shedding cycles go, I do not believe she has shed on the property. I have spoken with a few vets and they both agree. I understand that the risk is still there, so I will be retesting the other doe frequently, as well as disclosing when selling the kids.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> With a negative fecal, and negative test on the other doe I think I would be ok with keeping her and retesting often (maybe twice a year) until you're sure she didn't contract it. But Dave's right about disclosing when you sell kids, unless you can move the goats to an entirely different part of the property.


I can't move them to another part of the property, so I will disclose when I sell the kids.

I'm not comfortable keeping her with 2 positive blood tests. Both vets told me that this confirms her as positive, but the negative fecal shows she's not shedding. Thus not contagious.

My fiance's parents are considering taking the doe, as they don't have any other livestock and wouldn't have any, other than a wether for company. I don't know if I'll go this route, or put her down.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> WOW I cant believe I missed this thread! I read through the entire 17 pages of it too  Now I need to chime in.
> 
> First off Copper, regardless of the kind CAN NOT AND WILL NOT PREVENT a goat from contracting Johnes. It is simply one of the 4 most important minerals a goat needs in high levels to maintain a great immune system. Zinc, Magnesium and Selenium being the other 3. So although it will not prevent or make them immune to Johnes, it will help them fight it and anything else that threatens their immune system.
> 
> ...


Do people run animals on alfalfa fields? My mom didn't think so.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Sorry, I meant keeping the other doe - the one who doesn't have it.


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## ranch_grl (Sep 20, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Sorry, I meant keeping the other doe - the one who doesn't have it.


Ah, that makes sense. I'm pretty confident keeping her, but I'll be retesting often.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Sounds like a good plan. I wouldn't be able to cull my whole herd unless every one of them was sick, and I probably wouldn't try again if I had to


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ok just so long as you know, shedding can happen at anytime. Much the same way worms do. Move her quick and wish for the best.

Janeen, yes. People can and do graze animals on alfalfa fields. Because it has gone dormant, there is no worry about it being to hot.

Ya Hearts, it would be a devastating process on a larger farm. Personally I dont know for sure what I would do. But without being able to sell kids, there would be no way we could keep the goats. So they would have to leave. Easier said then done though.


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## Zzpygmies (Oct 31, 2014)

I tried to research this , but was having no luck...

Can the goats get johnes from alfalfa pellets or other pelleted feed? 

I would assume not, as the feed is processed, but you know what they say about assuming ... Ass-u-me


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## frenchELMfarms (Dec 8, 2014)

Johnes is not something you want to keep around. By moving your positive animal to another location you are only succeeding in spreading the disease to clean land. I have never read a quarantine time frame for infected land, so in my opinion it is better to put your doe down than spread the disease.


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