# What's everyones stance on the CL vaccine?



## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

So the CL vaccine has been out for about four years now, just curious what peoples thoughts are with it; as older threads/topics seem to point to people being cautious to use it and having problems with it causing lumps etc.

Also what your take is on the articles posted back in December regarding it.

http://tennesseemeatgoats.com/MeatGoatMania/December2015/index.html#CL2


> *CASEOUS LYMPHADENITIS (CL) AND THE TEXAS VET LAB VACCINE FOR GOATS*
> Caseous Lymphadenitis (CL) is a contagious bacterial infection affecting goats (and sheep). The organism corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis infects the animal through wounds caused by head butting, punctures, and shearing, as well as oral ingestion of the pus (exudate) from a ruptured abscess. The lymph system filters the bacteria from the goat's body and pushes it into a thick-walled (encapsulated) abscess so that it can't harm the goat. Visible abscesses usually don't appear for months after infection. CL abscesses are seldom seen in young goats because its immune system isn't fully functional until the animal nears one year of age and the lymph glands can't filter something that the immature immune system hasn't recognized. For the same reason, blood testing for CL can be inaccurate in goats under about eight months of age. Although I've helped many goat raisers with CL in their herds, I've never seen CL abscesses on a meat goat under six months of age. Unlike CAE and Johnes, CL is not transmitted through milk, saliva, semen, or other bodily fluids.
> 
> CL is not the disease equivalent of CAE or Johnes. Too many people classify these three diseases as equals. They are not. CL is manageable and we have a vaccine for it. At this time, nothing is available to manage CAE or Johnes. Goats with CAE or Johnes must be culled and that means go to slaughter. Not so with CL. People become irrational when they see an abscess, often assuming every abscess is CL. That isn't true. There are many kinds of abscesses. The presence of external abscesses doesn't mean that the goat has internal abscesses. This is seldom true in goats but is common in sheep. When a CL abscess is mature and ready to lance, it is attached to the inside of the hide rather than the goat's body. I have detailed articles on how to handle a CL abscess. I no longer recommend injecting Formalin because people don't use it correctly. Lancing the abscess, removing the pus, flushing with iodine, and vaccinating with the TVL vaccine for CL in goats is the best protocol.
> ...





> *CASEOUS LYMPHADENITIS
> Misconceptions About the Disease and the CL Vaccine*
> In May 2012, Texas Vet Lab, Inc. of San Angelo, Texas announced the US government approval of its new vaccine to control Caseous Lymphadenitis in goats. Since that announcement, questions have arisen that I will address in this article.
> 
> ...


 Also please list any other info you have found regarding the subject.

It's something I have been considering doing but would like to hear more opinions and/or results if possible.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok I didn't read threw all of that lol but I did start SLOWLY vaccinating my goats. Started out with my doelings from last year. One got a small knot at theme he took site and none of them missed a beat. Got brave lol did 2 does, sandy and shortcake. Short cake didn't miss a beat the first dose. No knot no nothing. Sandy got a massive knot and it blew and left a hole in her neck . Didn't seem to bother her but put cut heal on it. Just gave her her second dose and she laid around for 2 days but is fine, still eating and drinking just a little off. Now the hole in the neck. I admit I'm slowly loosing my mind lol when I went to draw up the second dose I got one full of 2cc and was working on the second when I happened to see 1cc so I'm not sure if I gave her and shortcake 2cc or 1 the first to around. I'll let you know when I finish the bottle. I also gave 4 does their first shot and nothing went wrong. That was 2 days ago. Just got my order in and I'm going to go ahead and do all 80 of the does that are left so will let you know how that goes and if I did give 2cc that first dose


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The newer vaccine has been out for that long. Cas-vac i believe its called has been out for 20 years or so. I tell people this. If your animals are at risk either from other goats/sheep or you buy them at the auction and you have no need to test them? Then feel free to use it. But if there is very little to no risk of them getting infected, then dont use it. You can expect reaction sight abscesses.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

TDG-Farms said:


> The newer vaccine has been out for that long. Cas-vac i believe its called has been out for 20 years or so. I tell people this. If your animals are at risk either from other goats/sheep or you buy them at the auction and you have no need to test them? Then feel free to use it. But if there is very little to no risk of them getting infected, then dont use it. You can expect reaction sight abscesses.


I agree! And they will test positive. In my case that doesn't matter. Anything that gets vaccinated is considered a keeper and my keepers stay till they are to old to keep producing or they do something that needs them to be culled, either way they end up at the sale yard they don't get sold privately.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Ugh


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Are the abscesses actual CL forming from the vaccine spot or it from elsewhere coming up? Just curious if it gives it to them at first?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The cas vac we tried years and years ago had terrible reaction site (vaccine shot location) abscesses. I personally believe it was a reaction to the antibodies to CL already in the goats system. Maybe even passed down from an infected mother to a kid. But we only used it for 2 year before we stopped. It was not helping prevent growths or protect the animals from becoming infected and the site abscesses where a nasty thing to deal with.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Hmm, I wonder if it has gotten better since then. That sounds horrible.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I don't know. When I was reading reviews on the new vaccine there were people who use them on known cl positive goats and said it reduced the amount of abscesses. Also another person that showed and didn't want cl in their herd used it and said they got injection knots. And nothing about huge holes in the neck so I'm really thinking that was due to me messing up on the dose but till it cools off and I can use up this bottle I won't know for sure if I even messed up


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## Mlivestock (Jul 4, 2016)

I've heard mixed reviews on it. i've heard if you give the vaccine they get abcesses and then you cannot test for CL. Also if a vaccinated goat does get a CL ab. There's no knowing if it's CL or something else since they will test positive.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yeah the testing was the biggest issue I have found. Some mentioned the injection site knots and limping, and some said a few of their goats were off feed for a few days. But the not knowing what the abscess is, you can still send the pus in you just can not send blood in.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> Hmm, I wonder if it has gotten better since then. That sounds horrible.


Ya the newer vaccine is suppose to be much better. I know of one person who has used it and I am sure to mis quote her but said about half her animals had reaction site abscess while the other half nothing. Protection from the newer vaccine is suppose to be upwards of 80%. I know I kinda bash on the vaccination but I am not in a position that I have to worry about CL, and had a bad experience with the original vaccine. So my opinion is bias.
Here is what this question really comes down to and is easy enough to answer.

Are your goats at a high enough risk to warrant the side effects of using the vaccine?

If they are, and the possible side effects (injection site abscesses) and no testing (CL blood testing is unreliable anyways) problems are worth dealing with, then by all means, vaccinate.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good read.

I am concerned with buyers coming onto my property, I worry if they may be subject to it. If you know what I mean. 

I do ask them to dip their feet in bleach water, but yet, they may have something elsewhere. I can't tell them to dip their hands and clothes, LOL. I am sure others are concerned as well about this and we do not show our goats because of the worry. Which is sad.

With any vaccine, I thought it is suppose to be used on healthy goats, which a CL abscess goat isn't healthy, is it? 
But if it lessons it I guess it is better than making it worse.

Are vaccines ordered or are they available in feed stores now? Also, what is the best one?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Pam you can't get it in California any more :/ I have a friend in Oregon (hint hint) you can try and order it from valley vet. When I saw you cant get it from Jeffers I went on valley to see if it was the same thing and some how added it to my cart then a few weeks later I ordered my pneumonia vaccine and there was a 10 dose cl vaccine in there. I didn't try to order more since I had a different plan going on but might be worth a shot if you want to start using it


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

This one is the best right?
https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=7fcb8392-d3cc-4479-b2e3-1b7791e9a867

I wonder why they stopped allowing it to go to Ca? Strange.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes that's the one. There's only 2 and the other one is for sheep (unless there's one I don't know about) 
I don't know, probably whatever reason they have that we can't get rabies shots and a lot of other states can. Or maybe it's the start of the whole Jerry brown crap. When my mom talked to someone at valley vet she said there's a whole list she has that is. No no in California now and at the end of the year. Penicillin is one of them same as ivermectin anything. No one saw a big deal with this bill since it came across as just feed additives but it's not turning out to be that at all


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm the one Dave knows who used the new CL vaccine for goats. I got mine from Jeffers. Out of eight goats vaccinated, seven had some kind of injection site reaction, usually at both injection sites. I was surprised by how long it took for the abscesses to form but even more surprised by how long it took some of them to resolve. In fact, one of my goats still has a lump over a year later. There is still pus in it but it has formed such a thick wall that I can't squeeze it out, and the pus is too thick to draw up with a needle. I'm not sure if it will ever go away without surgery so I'm just living with it. It's not huge and it's not in a CL location so I'm not too worried about it but obviously I'm not pleased about it either. 

Four of my goats ended up with scars in the form of holes or knots in the places where the abscesses had been. The goat who has the lump on one side has a pretty big scar on the opposite side because he scraped his abscess on something early on and it burst on its own, leaving a pretty big wound. One doe had a very bad reaction to the booster and was sick and lethargic for about a week. The entire muscle on one side of her neck seized up and was stiff as a board before the inflammation went down, then an abscess formed and came to a head which I was able to drain and flush. She was the only one who became ill.

I noticed that when I gave the booster shot , the original vaccination site was usually the one that swelled up. I had enough of a problem with reactions last year that I decided not to do CL shots again this year. I have a neighbor with a CL+ herd and sometimes my goats or his end up on the wrong property. The road to my house also goes through his ranch headquarters, and his goat pen is right next to the road, so any time we have heavy rain or snow, I drive through the runoff from his pens. So my animals are definitely at much higher risk than most, but even so, I'm not sure I'm willing to go through all those nasty reactions again. I called the lab and told them my experience, and I suppose there is some possibility that I ended up with a bad batch, but I'm definitely hesitant to vaccinate until I'm sure they get the bugs worked out. I'm curious to test my guys sometime and see what the lab finds out. I'd like to know how long the antibodies from the vaccine stay in their systems. They all tested negative just before I vaccinated.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

It's not something I would use or trust.

And I beg to differ....CAE is manageable by keeping CAE+ animals away from the CAE-, pulling the kids at birth and feeding pasteurized.

CL is too dangerous, in my mind, for me to try to manage. Others may be able to do it, I have too small of a place.

The old vaccine I didn't trust. The new one seems to have better results. I have not used it, my herd was closed for years until the fire and I had to start over. I was very careful who I got my goats from, so i didn't worry about CL and vaccinating is not as important as it may be on other farms.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, all good info.


Now, I am even more scared of the vaccine, darn, 
it seems that you can't win for losing with it. I am torn.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I had a very interesting conversation with the head researcher at Texas Vet Labs (the lab that makes the new CL vaccine). He said that they had tested the vaccine only on Boer goats, not dairy, but that he had some anecdotal evidence (now including mine!) of dairy goats reacting poorly to the vaccine whereas the Boer goats had far fewer reactions. 

He had an interesting theory about this. Boer only recently left South Africa where there is no CL bacteria. Therefore they have no natural immunity whatsoever, which is one reason why CL seems to infect Boer herds far more commonly and in a more devastating way than dairy herds. Since most dairy goats either originated in Europe or came to Europe hundreds of years ago, they have had centuries to develop some amount of natural resistance to the CL bacteria. For this reason, when exposed to the killed bacteria in the vaccine, dairy goats' immune systems recognize the pathogen, go into overdrive, and make large walled-off abscesses at the injection sites. (Because their bodies work so hard to isolate and wall off this killed bacteria, it makes me wonder how effective the vaccine is for dairy goats.) Boer goats, on the other hand, tend to have fewer, less dramatic reactions simply because their bodies don't recognize the killed bacteria and therefore accept the vaccination more readily, building antibodies to CL in their blood without treating it as a vile, long-recognized enemy that must be immediately isolated and walled off. 

Keep in mind that this was a theoretical discussion I had with the researcher and not something that anyone has done clinical studies on. 

I also want to emphasize that a goat who gets an abscess from a CL vaccination does NOT have CL. The positive blood test resulting from a CL vaccination only shows that the goat has developed antibodies to the disease, not that they have the disease. The bacteria in the vaccines is killed, which means it can't actually give the goat CL. If you test the pus from an injection site abscess, it will come back negative.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

So the reaction sandy got isn't all that uncommon and if what the vet is saying is true would make sense since sandy is a Nubian. My doelings I did were all higher % boer and shortcake the other doe is half lamanch half boer. 3 of the 4 I did the other day were boer as well and the fourth was half Nubian half boer. All I have left dairy wise is my alpines so I'll make sure to keep a eye on them to see if they do the same as sandy, although it's kinda hard to miss a flipping hole in their neck. But it's supposed t cool off soon (to a whole 99) and hoping I can go ahead and get everyone in and get them done.
Also I wanted to add when the vaccine first came out they said not to give to prego does, on the bottle it does not say that. I personally am not doing anyone that is bred. These will all be nursing does and when the keepers get old enough them too. I'm going to keep doing it. Even though I don't much like the hole in the neck in my case I think it would be best. May change my mind once they are all done but right now I'm going forward


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Great posts Damfino. That theory falls directly in line with what I suspected when we used the original cas vac all those years ago. Having dont it on so many goats for the 2 years it just seemed that certain family lines and breeds reacted worse to the vaccine. I wanna say that the Nubian part of the herd had the least amount of reactions. So I have always thought that if an animal carries some sort of CL anti bodies, they react worse. And I didnt realize it had gotten so bad for so many of your goaties Damfino. And sorry it didnt work out better. If ever there was a need for it, it would be in a situation like yours.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very informative.

I guess if i can get the vaccine for sure, I may give it a thought more. I hate the reactions to it, and if someone wants to test a goat for CL after the vaccine is given, they may become skeptical? Will that make it harder to sell the goats, if someone is concerned?

Sorry about all the questions.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well it doesn't show up in the offspring of the vaccinated goats (right?) so you would be good on your kids. For your does I know sometimes you do sell them, if I'm reading this right it just shows up as antibodies. I would consider 1. You have a good rep of having a clean herd and have gotten your name well out there. And then 2. If you can get a email of the vet saying that the vaccine would have them show the antibodies you might be fine. BUT think of your self as the buyer. If someone you know or know of threw this pitch at you would you buy it? If your answer is no then don't go for it. IMO you have been doing goats for how long? And you haven't had cl yet so I'm thinking your chances of not getting it in your here are pretty good


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

If you're worried that someone won't buy CL vaccinated goats, then make sure you get good documentation. Keep the receipt for the vaccine purchase and make it clear to the buyer that it will cause a positive BLOOD test. Blood tests only check for antibodies, not for CL bacteria. You may want to print out a CL vaccination fact sheet to go with your goats. If you want further proof of vaccination, it might be a good idea to have a vet out to oversee the procedure and have them sign a document stating that you gave the vaccinations. If you decide to vaccinate your herd I'd be interested to hear if you have many reactions. I'm inclined to think you'll be ok since you have Boers.


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

What an interesting point/theory about Boers, Damfino! That certainly makes sense. I always figured that the abundance of CL in meat herds was due to more lax management but I know many producers (myself included) who have CL despite extreme care & cleanliness. 
I take issue with anyone saying that a CL positive goat is not a healthy goat. I invite anyone with that opinion to my farm to see my sleek, bright-eyed "unhealthy" goats for themselves. To say a goat with an abscess is unhealthy is like saying someone with a single pimple is unhealthy. Okay, rant over. ;-)
I'm very interested in how others find the vaccine to work for them. Due to side effects I've refrained from using it myself but if it could help eliminate CL from my farm without severe side effects (enter Damfino's excellent Boer theory...) I'd be much more open to trying it out.
I'll be following this thread.


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## Sara+pumpkin (Jul 21, 2015)

I just read all of this in perfect timing. we took a vet trip a few days ago. I have 3 goats, all purebred Nubian. a mom(2 years) and her 3 month old doeling and weather. the doeling has a large bulge on her neck. the vet said it could be cl. if it is, what should be my next steps? does that mean the other two are positive? if it's not, should I still vaccinate? I just heard about cl and am lost!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Sara+pumpkin said:


> I just read all of this in perfect timing. we took a vet trip a few days ago. I have 3 goats, all purebred Nubian. a mom(2 years) and her 3 month old doeling and weather. the doeling has a large bulge on her neck. the vet said it could be cl. if it is, what should be my next steps? does that mean the other two are positive? if it's not, should I still vaccinate? I just heard about cl and am lost!


If you can, get us a picture of the pump. A whole head shot so we can see its location. We can go from there


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Sara+pumpkin said:


> I just read all of this in perfect timing. we took a vet trip a few days ago. I have 3 goats, all purebred Nubian. a mom(2 years) and her 3 month old doeling and weather. the doeling has a large bulge on her neck. the vet said it could be cl. if it is, what should be my next steps? does that mean the other two are positive? if it's not, should I still vaccinate? I just heard about cl and am lost!


I agree with Dave about the photo. While it's *possible* for a 3-month-old to have a CL abscess, it's highly unlikely to present so young. "Large bulge" sounds more like a milk goiter (depending on where it's located). A CL abscess at this early stage should feel like a very hard lump, and it will usually be located behind the jaw on one side (not under the neck), or down where the neck joins the shoulder.

If it is a pus-filled abscess and not a milk goiter, then the only way to find out if it's CL is to draw up some pus and send it to a lab for testing. There are many kinds of abscesses and my guess is that this is not CL because the animal is so young. But it never hurts to check, and a photo may rule it right out before you spend any money.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I do agree.

I am still playing it by ear. Kinda scared yet to try it. I want to protect my goats, yet there is that fear of the vaccine.
I know many others who feel the same.


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## Sara+pumpkin (Jul 21, 2015)

these aren't great pictures but she won't hold still! thank you all!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Good news! That lump is under the throat, not behind the jaw; and it is a swelling, not an abscess. I'd guess milk goiter (completely harmless swelling due to lots of rich milk from a good producer-- Nubians are more prone to milk goiters than other breeds). Or she may have an iodine or cobalt deficiency which causes the thyroid gland located under the throat to swell. Here's an article about that: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/iodinedeficiency.html


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree total milk goiter! Don't be alarmed it's a good thing lol I have quite a few with them too and although they look goofy to anyone who doesn't know better it's ok. Like this girl I have has a few people concerned about her and when I try telling them it's ok they look at me like I'm on crack


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well I can tell you guys one thing! If you choose to do a lot of does at once get a bigger needle then a 21. I just did 27 and my fingers are done for. Will let you guys know of any more reactions but I did skip on my 11 year old lamancha after the warning on dairy girls. But I did do my 2 two year old alpines and my lamboers


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Jessica84 said:


> Well I can tell you guys one thing! If you choose to do a lot of does at once get a bigger needle then a 21. I just did 27 and my fingers are done for. Will let you guys know of any more reactions but I did skip on my 11 year old lamancha after the warning on dairy girls. But I did do my 2 two year old alpines and my lamboers


Curious to hear your results, I'm still kind of on the fence with the whole deal.

I would like to start making more private sales but am a bit worried about if they do a CL blood test. Even though, from what I've seen from the few other goat herds I've been to in the area, isn't a very common practice here.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

So far I just have my 100% boer limping. It's not bad if I didn't give her the shot I would just assume she stepped down wrong or hurt her foot somehow. Everyone including her is still eating. 
No I don't blame you on being on the wall. I was for a long time too, but the more I thought about it the more it fits the bill for me. As Dave said it may not be for everyone, like everything just need to consider the pros and cons


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes, that is milk goiter or iodine deficiency with the picture, No worries.



I am feeling the same way about the vaccine, not sure either. 
It is good to be informed about it. Thank you guys for all you are sharing.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Just gave everyone their second dose. Out of them all one limped for half a day and it was more like she just had a sore foot or something, nothing very bad at all. 3 of them ended up with a injection site knot none of which is as bad as sandys but worse then your normal say CDt shot. I'm actually wondering if these 4 are cl positive to start with and maybe that's why the big nasty knot. One is a 100% boer, 1 is pretty boer but no papers to back it but I know for sure at least 88%, and the other one is a 75% boer and the 1/4 is Nubian, but none of it makes sense of why some get it and others don't but only 4 I think that's good odds


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I had gone to order some and yea....I hadn't even really looked at what states it can't go to, and for once ND is on there. First time I've ever had that happen.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

California wasn't on there for years and now it is. There's something in it that the state has banned and I hope it's something that can be replaced maybe with something else and they do it because that list sure seems to grow. There's no ban on the sheep vaccine so you think it can be done


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Well mixed news. CL has finally reared its ugly head at my farm on two of my does now in the last month, after not seeing it since late 2014? on the one doe (who has since gone to the sales barn)......oh joy. The better part of the news is, is that I've been in contact with the state vet and my local vet to get the vaccine approved in ND. Seems like there "shouldn't" *crosses fingers* be a reason it's not approved, but they still have to go through the formal channels and all that.

-So few more questions on it, the injection site abscess...does that go away? I was reading somewhere of people giving them the shot in the armpit so it's not visible?? Is it different than just a normal shot lump or are they referencing the same thing? Example being the baseball sized lump they can get, is that just a temporary thing until they heal up or is that a permanent blemish now?

-Once you give the initial shot and the booster, you shouldn't have to give another shot correct? Or is there a yearly booster too....?

-Should I bother giving the shot to the two does that I know have it? Is there any benefit to them getting the shot?

The plan is to give it to all my does and bucks, and then any doelings/kids I plan on keeping. Not going to give it to the ones going to the sales barn since it has such a long withdrawal time. 

Hoping that a combination of vaccinating everyone, lancing, and eventually culling anyone that has it; will be enough to get rid of it in my herd after some years. At this point, I'm determined to not make a big deal about it as in going out and killing everything (as normally suggested) but rather just handle it as responsibly as I think reasonably possible. Think there is a success chance here or is this hope a lost cause?

As far as ever selling anything to someone other than the sales barn, I think I'll just have to let the person know that it is on my property, that the goat has been vaccinated (maybe give them a copy of meatgoatmanias write up on it and the vaccine or something?), and let them decide. Miles more than the 1 of 3 places I got it from in the first place, ever did for me. Could have been all three for that matter....


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

> -So few more questions on it, the injection site abscess...does that go away? I was reading somewhere of people giving them the shot in the armpit so it's not visible?? Is it different than just a normal shot lump or are they referencing the same thing? Example being the baseball sized lump they can get, is that just a temporary thing until they heal up or is that a permanent blemish now?


All the injection site abscesses on my goats went away with the exception of one. He still has a lump the size of a large marble from one of the shots. I opted to give the shot in the neck because my goats wear packs and I was nervous about causing a lump where the girth sits. Normally I would do behind the arm where the skin is looser because I think that might cause less of a reaction and also it wouldn't be visible. None of my goats got a lump as big as a baseball. Some got the size of a golf ball but all of them went away eventually except the one.



> -Once you give the initial shot and the booster, you shouldn't have to give another shot correct? Or is there a yearly booster too....?


As far as I know you're supposed to give an annual booster. However, it's best to check with the manufacturer about these kind of things, especially since the goat vaccine is still so new. They manufacturer may not even be sure about it and more long-term antibody tests may need to be conducted.



> -Should I bother giving the shot to the two does that I know have it? Is there any benefit to them getting the shot?


I've heard conflicting information about this. Some say it can make an existing CL problem worse and others say the opposite. Once again, call the manufacturing lab and see what they have to say.



> At this point, I'm determined to not make a big deal about it as in going out and killing everything (as normally suggested) but rather just handle it as responsibly as I think reasonably possible. Think there is a success chance here or is this hope a lost cause?


I think this sounds like a sensible plan and there's no reason why you shouldn't have success. Some people may avoid buying goats from you because of having CL in your herd, but other folks don't care one bit. Culling everyone seems dramatic and overblown to me. Best of luck!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

The bottle says give in the neck so that's what I would do. I'm not sure why some vaccines must go in the neck, never really questioned that but some do. It has s been all that long since all of mine got their booster but most of mine, the knot is gone, the one I know for sure that still has it I noticed today it's going down. I never had baseball size either, golf ball as well on the biggest ones. 
So far all I have heard is that the cl vaccine makes less break outs, abscesses whatever in positive goats or it will do nothing for them. But honestly I was mainly looking for if anyone's goats croaked or got sick lol
Yes!!! Be honest!! There are a lot of people who couldn't care less about cl, some, as you said think they should be burned. Let them decide. I still have a serious issue with the whole killing a goat over cl but I will just zip my mouth shut on that one. 
Another thing is you can have a vaccine made up from a cl abscess. I have heard it is kinda expensive but if you can't get the vaccine it might be something to look into and maybe not as expensive as it's let on to be. As your vet about it. Hopefully you can get the vaccine


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Thanks for the info! I'll give them a call today. I sure hope it gets approved; when I had called the state vet, it didn't sound like it would be an issue but who knows.

So far I only really sell to the sales yard. I was hoping to sell doelings and a buckling (if I find the right one) off the farm next year, so I guess it will depend on the vaccines approval.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

One reason I was told to give it in the neck is because the neck is closer to two lymph nodes, so the vaccine is more likely to cause a good antibody reaction. Once again, this would be something to ask the lab.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

After many emails, phone calls, and going back n' forth between parties, this is now available in North Dakota! Right now it can only be ordered through a veterinarian but at least one can get it. Hopefully Jeffers or Valley vet get their licensing permits or whatever they need done too now.

So once it arrives, I'll vaccinate everyone and any kids I plan on retaining this spring once they are three months.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

After reading another topic, I remembered this one and realized I hadn't done a followup. I coincidentally gave the 10 doelings their first shot two weeks ago and will be giving them their booster tonight. I gave it in the neck and will give the booster on the other side, per instructions o the bottle.

I did't notice any lameness in them and no visible reaction lumps. Though I'll find out tonight if I can feel any when I give the booster and get a hands on examinations. (We're still working on being friends and they don't like being touched other than a nose boop)

Will try better to check in with updates!


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Gave the girls their booster last night. Didn't notice any lameness during the evening after the fact.

When giving them shots, I checked each of them for lumps. One had a lump about golfball size and one other had one about the size of a nickle. The other 8 were all lump free.

Next on the list are my two bucks, as soon as I can get a volunteer . They are starting to smell so delightful , and aren't found of getting shots...... not able to solo them.....nor do I want to, less manhandling aka physical contact the better for me.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Check necks for lumps for the next few weeks. I found that most of the abscesses took 2-4 weeks to appear. Abscesses at the original injection sites either cropped up after the booster or became significantly worse after the booster.

I had one goat whose injection-site abscess stayed on his neck for over 18 months. It _finally_ worked its way to the surface last winter and burst. He has a visible scar, but it's not terribly noticeable. A couple of my other goats have scar tissue where the injections were given, but these are only noticeable by touch. You can't see them under the hair.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Mine are getting their yearly booster right now (slowly I started about 3 weeks ago) and everyone is taking their shots very well. I've done 34 so far and 2 have a bit of a knot but still WAY smaller then some from last year. I too also have one with a small scar from last year but the other 60 something have nothing to show from last year.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, interesting.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I might have spoken too soon! I have one that is off feed and slow BUT she was also a devil during her feet trimming, even threw herself upside down so either she is having a small reaction or she is sore from our fight. So that's 39 goats and one might be having a reaction. I'll update when she is feeling 100% or if she gets worse. Honestly if I didn't know her I wouldn't know anything is wrong though


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Jessica84 said:


> I might have spoken too soon! I have one that is off feed and slow BUT she was also a devil during her feet trimming, even threw herself upside down so either she is having a small reaction or she is sore from our fight. So that's 39 goats and one might be having a reaction. I'll update when she is feeling 100% or if she gets worse. Honestly if I didn't know her I wouldn't know anything is wrong though


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

great that you know your animal, so so important! 

keep us posted and good luck


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

This has been a fascinating thread. Thank you, everyone.

I bought the vaccine, but before I gave it, my fridge had its power shut off while I was out of town. I lost everything in it, including many of my goat medications/vaccines. I've been slowly replacing them, but have not gotten to the CL vaccine yet. Frankly, I have been undecided whether to reorder that one or not...

@Damfino your additions have been particularly interesting and helpful.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

For anyone who wants to give this a try (or any other banned vaccine) but their state doesn't allow it; I recommend giving your state vet a call. It wasn't allowed here in ND simply because the company never requested a permit. After (admittedly) a lot of annoying back and forth phone calls between getting the CL manufacturer and the state to communicate, I was able to get it allowed in ND.

My first batch I had to get through my vet, but after just looking on Jeffers; I can now buy it from there. (for almost half the price as the vet)

So don't be afraid to give them a call there's hope!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Better! A little slow still but eating.
See in California it was ok to start with, which shocked me!!! But then they were deed to the list of not allowed later and now it is back to being ok. I'm really not understanding that one at all. But then again I don't understand a lot of california lol


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## equinecpa (May 18, 2014)

Lstein said:


> -Should I bother giving the shot to the two does that I know have it? Is there any benefit to them getting the shot?


Did you ever get an answer from the manufacturer on this?


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