# Bullying Problem



## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

Hi again, I need some advice on a bullying doeling...

Peyton is 9 months and she is evidently the herd queen. She is super quirky, cute and is a sweetheart to us. Within the herd she definitely pushes them out of the way when she wants food or attention, but there is one doeling, Peanut - 7 months, who she absolutely picks on. She will headbutt her multiple times in a row and push her out of the way and up against walls, she definitely targets Peanut. It breaks my heart because Peanut it the sweetest goat ever and she always looks terrified. This only happens when we are inside the barn, if outside in the backyard Peyton does not have this behavior. Peanut does not look hurt and Peyton does not bite her or do anything else but headbutt her. It is also frustrating because Peanut could totally put up a fight, but she won't. Peyton will play-fight with the other goats as she is super energetic and playful but she will not play with Peanut. For reference we have 5 Nigerian Dwarf doelings, none are related. This has been happening since we introduced the two of them. 

I feel like I am working with kinder-gardeners...Is there a way to get Peyton to not bully and play nice with Peanut? If not, is this a concern? 

Giving her away is not an option, she is my family and I love her!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm sorry, but there is no way to change the behavior. It is completely normal goat herd behavior and not bullying in kindergartners. But it is a really really tough part of being a goat owner!

Being constantly bullied does make them less thrifty health-wise and obviously she could be injured in the long run.

Do you close them into the barn at night or other times or do they always have the door open and access to the outdoors? 

The best thing you can do is to provide additional shelter locations (a good dog-house out in the pen, outside of the barn) and a second hay rack. 

And don't be fooled, if you introduced a new young herd member, Peanut would take the FIRST opportunity to establish her new found dominance over a lower-ranking goat. 

With all that being said - some herd queens are unusually aggressive in maintaining their status and do injure other goats or bully incessantly. And they teach their daughters to do the same. It's best not to perpetuate those types. To me, it doesn't sound like Peyton is "too" aggressive.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> I'm sorry, but there is no way to change the behavior. It is completely normal goat herd behavior and not bullying in kindergartners. But it is a really really tough part of being a goat owner!
> 
> Being constantly bullied does make them less thrifty health-wise and obviously she could be injured in the long run.
> 
> ...


Thank you! During the day they have access to go outside into a fenced area but their food and hay is kept inside (until summer) as it is winter and everything will get wet. At night we close the barn doors for warmth and keep them safe from potential preditors.

In the spring I will look into getting a second hay rack to keep outside as well as an additional mini shelter, just right now it is way to cold/wet. I think that is a good option, thank you!!

And you are correct, she is not gaining as much weight as the other doelings and I just found out she has a bit of pneumonia on her right lung. sigh. I guess I will keep an eye on her and make sure Peyton is not physically hurting her.

Since Peanut is being targeted she also gets a lot of attention from my family members. I am working on shutting that down because I'm also wondering if that is an issue, bringing on jealously and hatred from Peyton.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Well Ive seen Clyde get Jealous when we dote on Bonnie, but I would suggest a different feeder for them to ensure Peanut is getting her due in nutrients, maybe an electrolyte boost might help her too.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

MadCatX said:


> Well Ive seen Clyde get Jealous when we dote on Bonnie, but I would suggest a different feeder for them to ensure Peanut is getting her due in nutrients, maybe an electrolyte boost might help her too.


Bonnie and Clyde, I love it. We do have 6 feeders so they all have one and the hay rack we have is very large and has more than enough room for everyone. But Peyton will legit take the time to go to where Peanut is just to be mean -_- I will look into electrolyte boosts! Thank you


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Sure, yeah down here at tractor supply they have pouches, its like Gatorade. 

Yeah, I have chickens, and the hens can be brutal trying to set up the pecking order. Head pecks and such, it sucks. I only have two go-tees and they are pets only so we dont use them for milk or food or whatever so yeah we love them like yall do lol. You should get Peanut some armor lol. I was going to get Bonnie some leathers lol so when Clyde gets to honorary with her he doesnt hurt her.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Herds of goats that are all the same age can be the worst. It becomes a sort of "Lord of the Flies" scenario and one dominant goat can rise to bully status. I've noticed in a herd with multiple ages, the older, higher ranking goats keep younger ones from bullying. Unfortunately, you can't stop Peyton from bullying Peanut when you're not there, but when you're around you are the "boss goat" and you have the authority to keep Peyton in line. I sometimes run at my bully goats and yell "NO!" with hand clapping and and arm waving when they get too rough with another goat in my presence. It scares the bully away. I pet all of my goats, but I don't let any one of them push the others away for attention. If they do that, they get chased away. If Peyton messes with "your baby" in front of you, enforce good manners like you're the "boss mama goat"!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

i would separate at feeding time - Peanut is probably not getting her fair share - perhaps if you pull Peyton and feed her away from the others?


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

Damfino said:


> Herds of goats that are all the same age can be the worst. It becomes a sort of "Lord of the Flies" scenario and one dominant goat can rise to bully status. I've noticed in a herd with multiple ages, the older, higher ranking goats keep younger ones from bullying. Unfortunately, you can't stop Peyton from bullying Peanut when you're not there, but when you're around you are the "boss goat" and you have the authority to keep Peyton in line. I sometimes run at my bully goats and yell "NO!" with hand clapping and and arm waving when they get too rough with another goat in my presence. It scares the bully away. I pet all of my goats, but I don't let any one of them push the others away for attention. If they do that, they get chased away. If Peyton messes with "your baby" in front of you, enforce good manners like you're the "boss mama goat"!


Peyton is also the eldest and the largest, so it makes sense why she is the high ranker. I definitely do get mad at her when I see her do it, and she fully knows. In the summer I used a spray bottle with water and it worked well, but it is way too cold now. Peyton does get a lot of cuddles, hugs and love from me when she is being good, she is actually super sweet and lovely! Thanks for the tips


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Damfino said:


> Herds of goats that are all the same age can be the worst. It becomes a sort of "Lord of the Flies" scenario and one dominant goat can rise to bully status. I've noticed in a herd with multiple ages, the older, higher ranking goats keep younger ones from bullying. Unfortunately, you can't stop Peyton from bullying Peanut when you're not there, but when you're around you are the "boss goat" and you have the authority to keep Peyton in line. I sometimes run at my bully goats and yell "NO!" with hand clapping and and arm waving when they get too rough with another goat in my presence. It scares the bully away. I pet all of my goats, but I don't let any one of them push the others away for attention. If they do that, they get chased away. If Peyton messes with "your baby" in front of you, enforce good manners like you're the "boss mama goat"!


I could see you running at Finn or Sputnik and they just pick you up with their horns lol.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

goatblessings said:


> i would separate at feeding time - Peanut is probably not getting her fair share - perhaps if you pull Peyton and feed her away from the others?


I will try that tomorrow! Thank you


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

I too have a strong pecking order with my four does. I have done a couple of things which have helped a lot. 
1. I put a large log in the middle of their stall in the barn. This makes the living space kind of donut shaped. This means that there is always an escape route when the bully comes charging. No matter where in the stall the "victim" is, she can always go left or right or up over the log.
2. I built a couple of platforms along the walls. The goats can run under or jump onto the platforms to escape a charge. This does not mean the bully cannot chase the other goat but it is hard to land a good headbutt when negotiating the furniture.
3. I have several hay feeders which makes hogging all the hay difficult.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> I too have a strong pecking order with my four does. I have done a couple of things which have helped a lot.
> 1. I put a large log in the middle of their stall in the barn. This makes the living space kind of donut shaped. This means that there is always an escape route when the bully comes charging. No matter where in the stall the "victim" is, she can always go left or right or up over the log.
> 2. I built a couple of platforms along the walls. The goats can run under or jump onto the platforms to escape a charge. This does not mean the bully cannot chase the other goat but it is hard to land a good headbutt when negotiating the furniture.
> 3. I have several hay feeders which makes hogging all the hay difficult.


Awesome. Those are great Ideas thanks so much! I can definitely find a log and ill look into platforms that could be of use. I definitly need to become more creative and handy lol!


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

I does not have to be a log. I just happen to have one I could use - it's about 2.5 ft in diameter and 3 ft long. Anything large enough and sturdy would do.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I completely isolate the bully and allow the one being bullied to remain with the herd. After 2 days, I allow the bully back in and watch. at the first sign of returning to bullying form, she gets completely isolated again. I mean no loving, no attention, just hay and water. After 2 days I try it again. Usually, that does it. But if she attacks the bullied one again, it is back into solitary. If it does not work that time she stays in isolation until I can take her to auction.

I have a moral responsibility to the one being bullied to not let her life be full of torment. And I won't tolerate a bully. I'm not talking about normal pecking order. I'm talking about persecution.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I completely isolate the bully and allow the one being bullied to remain with the herd. After 2 days, I allow the bully back in and watch. at the first sign of returning to bullying form, she gets completely isolated again. I mean no loving, no attention, just hay and water. After 2 days I try it again. Usually, that does it. But if she attacks the bullied one again, it is back into solitary. If it does not work that time she stays in isolation until I can take her to auction.
> 
> I have a moral responsibility to the one being bullied to not let her life be full of torment. And I won't tolerate a bully. I'm not talking about normal pecking order. I'm talking about persecution.


I have thought about doing this, just right now since its winter we don't have the space to isolate her where she would be warm enough and safe from the elements. I will definitely implement this in the summer. Thanks!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Tab Carloni said:


> we don't have the space to isolate her where she would be warm enough and safe from the elements.


I understand. But is that fair to Peanut? She depends on you to keep her safe from the elements too, including the element of Peyton.

Just keep in mind what all your girls need from you, and you'll come to a solution.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I understand. But is that fair to Peanut? She depends on you to keep her safe from the elements too, including the element of Peyton.
> 
> Just keep in mind what all your girls need from you, and you'll come to a solution.


You are right. Its just been a brutal winter Canadian winter. Once the extreme cold warnings and alerts are taken down we will try the isolation tactic!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Yep, I do the isolation too. One doe, an Alpine (of course) got really nasty to the underdog. (The group was about 15 does). I had to isolate her 4 different times before she got the message. She is still a pain, but quit the head butting and side ramming. She almost became a coyote dinner one day, then I had the idea of isolating her. 

Don't pull the persecuted one out, that poor goat will get really pounded when she is put back.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

Curious about this idea of changing goat behaviour by isolation. (Not disagreeing or arguing, just curious.) 

On the surface it seems like such a "human" idea. Do something bad, get sent to jail, learn (sometimes) not to do that again. I know goats are pretty clever, but can they really connect the dots? "Oh, here I am in the isolation chamber again. Is it because I let myself be caught by the human? Is it because I ate too much hay? Maybe it is because I put that stupid other goat in her place. I know, it must be because I peed on the straw."

Just wondering how well this works. When I let my queen goat out of the bonding spa (aka jail) after kidding, one of the first things she does is reassert her dominance.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I don't think they grasp the concept of "punishment" in this scenario either. However, if you keep a dominant goat isolated the others will often form bonds and connections that they couldn't make when the dominant goat was there. When the dominant goat is reintroduced, they often have to fight their way back to the top, and they may find that the goat they picked on has now formed an alliance with a stronger member of the herd. If the dominant one has to fight two at once, she might not be quite so keen on bullying purely for bullying's sake.

I actually just now watched a very interesting change take place in my herd this morning. I (finally!) sold my last two 2018 doelings and they went to their new home about an hour ago. Both girls have twin siblings that I retained in my herd. The oldest 2018 doeling, Skeeter, has been bullying and picking on all the other 2018 kids for about the last month. She's even gotten up in the faces of some of my older herd members and has risen through the ranks really quickly.

Then this morning Skeeter's sister, Blackbird, left. Skeeter had been picking on Blackbird a lot lately. She was also picking on Penny Lane, Sadie, and a yearling doe named Coral. Penny Lane's sister Rita has not been picked on much by anybody. She's the wallflower goat that everyone ignores and seemingly has no strong friends or enemies. Penny would occasionally pick on Rita because they were sisters, but that was about it.

Within 15 minutes of Blackbird and Penny leaving, there was a great commotion outside and Rita was challenging Skeeter hard core. They both went at it hammer and tongs for a good 45 minutes. About 15 minutes into the fight, Coral came over and took Rita's side against Skeeter. Skeeter's mother is my herd queen and she ignored the entire thing. In fact, she deliberately turned her back on the fight and let her daughter duke it out with the two others. I'm not sure how this is going to end, but it's fascinating to me how removing two seemingly insignificant members of the herd is totally changing the dynamics. I have a feeling Skeeter is not going to be getting her way as much from now on and is going to have to tone down the bullying lest she risk getting into a bigger fight than she can handle.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> Do something bad, get sent to jail, learn (sometimes) not to do that again. I know goats are pretty clever, but can they really connect the dots?


Mike, it isn't about jail in the way you mean. It is about removing a force that is causing a toxic dynamic. It is about promoting a dynamic that ALL of you can live with. There is no punishment mentality involved. The isolated one cannot form alliances, the included one can, and does.

It is not about punishment, or learning a lesson, in the way you are thinking of in your "jail" analogy. Nothing so anthropomorphic.

It is also about justice. We put them together, or we don't. Therefore, it is on us, morally, to not allow torture. In the wild, they can get away from one another, and do.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Yep, what mariarose said.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Damfino said:


> I don't think they grasp the concept of "punishment" in this scenario either. However, if you keep a dominant goat isolated the others will often form bonds and connections that they couldn't make when the dominant goat was there. When the dominant goat is reintroduced, they often have to fight their way back to the top, and they may find that the goat they picked on has now formed an alliance with a stronger member of the herd. If the dominant one has to fight two at once, she might not be quite so keen on bullying purely for bullying's sake.
> 
> I actually just now watched a very interesting change take place in my herd this morning. I (finally!) sold my last two 2018 doelings and they went to their new home about an hour ago. Both girls have twin siblings that I retained in my herd. The oldest 2018 doeling, Skeeter, has been bullying and picking on all the other 2018 kids for about the last month. She's even gotten up in the faces of some of my older herd members and has risen through the ranks really quickly.
> 
> ...


Amazing. I would like to see this going on. Not the fighting part, the changing dynamics of the herd part.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Isolation does work. I think the biggest reason it does work is that goat gets to be pretty lonely and once she is back with the others she is a lonely outsider that is happy to be with a herd again. Now not all the time it works there are some goats who are just seriously nasty and there is absolutely no changing it but a lot of times it does work.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I do agree.


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## Marcie Jo (Feb 3, 2019)

I have this problem too, except that I only have two goats, not a herd. Will isolating the bully help in this case or not?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Marcie Jo Not in the same way, no. The help in your case would only be toward TEMPORARILY stopping the bullying of the weaker animal. If you must keep the bully (I won't) and the other goat is completely unable to stand up to her/him, then I think your answer is separate places within your pen for feeding, housing, watering. They should be far enough away that one goat can't simultaneously "own" everything. It is okay if the weaker one gets moved from place to place, the bully will settle and eat, or settle and go to sleep, while the weaker one does the same elsewhere.

The shelter need not be extensive or expensive. A good Dogloo is an awesome house for most single goats. It should be large enough for the goat to fit into, and small enough that body heat can warm it.

Eventually, the 2 might bond, but not if the weaker one is traumatized. That dynamic would then be almost set in stone. So taking steps to relieve the pressure can lead to friendship later.

I'm not saying it will, but it can.
Thank you for that thought-filled question.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

I have a Lamancha that is a bully. Sweet as pie to people but downright mean to the other goats. This last year i bred some of my large does. When she went for their babies they put her down. She is much better, will still pick if she thinks she can get away with it. The others have learned who to run and hide behind


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

Wow! Learning a lot from this thread. I also have had some bullying in my herd. Some of the suggested changes I figured out on my own. It's mostly between my boys. I have a yearling buck and two wethers. The largest wether came from a herd where he was the outcast. Now he has teamed up with my buck to pick on my small wether who is my first goat and the one who is allowed outside the gate when I feed. I realized after he had been sick twice since growing my herd that his status had a relationship to his health. Much to my husband's dismay, I secured a corner of his garage for a kidding pen and sick bay. The bullying problem is the worst at feeding time and competition for the best places to sleep. I may try the isolation treatment as a solution. The larger wether (his name is Pepperoni for a reason) lol, I would never slaughter one of my goats, does know when I'm displeased over the butting. That dickens has gone so far as to give me the side eye as he backs up to charge. Then he has the unmitigated gall to act hurt when I tell him no and give the other goats their treats first. I have been reading about goat intelligence. Do not underestimate your goat's ability to learn. I found an article that found goats to be able to solve complex problems in about 10 attempts. Watching another goat that had mastered the task had no effect on how fast they learned. After 10 months of not performing the task it only took 2 minutes to relearn how to perform the task indicating goats have long term memory. It appears to me that classical conditioning should work well to extinguish bad behavior. Best technique is ignoring the behavior or removing the stressor. Second best is negative reinforcement, removing something enjoyable like having to wait until last for a treat or no treat at all. Alone time is not punishment, it's removing the stressor or status in the herd. Punishment doesn't work well with people or animals js. All that being said, I don't think we will ever be able to override the herd mentality. They are so darn smart it's hard not to give them human qualities they will never
possess because, no matter how much we love them they are goats . 


mariarose said:


> I have a moral responsibility to the one being bullied to not let her life be full of torment. And I won't tolerate a bully. I'm not talking about normal pecking order. I'm talking about persecution.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Cute.


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