# Newbie looking for advice....



## wickedmum (May 21, 2009)

I am a newbie here - I have a little herd-ette of Nigerians in South-Central Wisconsin, near that hotbed of anarchy and radicalism, Madison  
I have problem with a little doe, a first freshener, that I just don't know what to do with, to keep or to sell, and I'm hoping someone who knows more about goats (that would encompass pretty much anyone who has done more than pet a goat at the County Fair :wink: ) could give me their opinion.
She is 3/4 Rosasharn breeding. Her sire's dam is Rosasharn Arwen, and although her own dam had a pretty mediocre udder attachment, I was hoping for better from this little girl, April. She is a very elegant little doe, refined, very level, looks very dairy, if you ignore her udder... It is not badly attached, stronger than her mother's although could use better extension in the fore - has a bit of a pocket - but seems to have a fairly strong medial. Haven't seen it really full as her two little kids are snacking on her still. But her teats are tiny little teats, not even as good as her dam's, skinnier than my pinky, maybe the width of a pencil, and one of them is not perfectly straight. Hard to milk.
What would someone who knows goats do?!?!?! If I had a good buck that fixed udders I would keep her, at least until I had, hopefully, a daughter from her next year (this year she produced two nice little soon-to-be-wethers, also very refined looking, popping them out unassisted. - and almost unnoticed - I swear these little goats wait until they see my car heading out the driveway before they go into labor...) But the two bucks I could breed her to, they come from good lines but they are fairly young and as yet unproven, and it seems to me it's a risk not worth taking, keeping her and then her daughter for the next two years to see if there might be a socked on milkable udder at the end of it. I know the whole genetics/breeding thing is a gamble anyway, but I'm not sure I like those odds...
I would welcome any advice/opinions,
Thanks, Jo


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## Thanatos (Mar 16, 2009)

I would no longer use her in your herd genetics, but if you really like her it cant hurt to keep her as a pet :shrug: . If you try to "fix" the udder issue you may succeed but on the other hand her udder and prolly her kidds will not be quite what you want. It would prolly take breeding to her kidds kidds to get a great udder and in the mean time you have a bunch of not quite right udders. But if you have room you might think of her as a pet.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree with Jason.. :greengrin: ....if you want a good udder and teats/placement ect.....to carry on....there is no guarantee... that it can be corrected through breeding to a good buck.....there is risk.....maybe sell her.. and get a replacement doe... of what you are seeking ...to better your herd....it will make you ...alot happier in the long run.... :wink: :hug:


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

The two bucks you have access to, what do their dam's udders look like? If they are nicer than this young does I would try it. Since the Nigerian breed is fairly new, it's still hard to get that so-called "perfect" goat (no such thing!) Foreudders seem to be a problem that is a little harder to correct with the ND's, in my limited experience.

How old is she? FF udders can sometimes improve, especially in teat size. Her dam may have freshened for the 1st time with itty-bitty teats and then improved in teat size over another freshening.

If you have the room to keep her around, I would. I think she may still have potential, when bred to the right buck.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I have only seen a handful of smooth forudders in the ND breed. 

Do you have pictures of her udder? filled she will look MUCH better then nursed out. It is amazing the difference.

Small teats - that is because she is a FF they will get bigger as you milk her (believe me I didnt think this could happen but it did) and with future freshionings. Forudders can smooth out with freshionings. Best to give a doe 2-3 freshionings before giving her the outs because of her forudder or attachements (unless they are aweful)


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I totally agree with Stacey.

I would give her more time. Did I miss it? How old is she? I know this is her FF but how old is she? Was she bred at a pretty young age and not really have a chance to grow and mature?


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## wickedmum (May 21, 2009)

She was born April Fool's Day last year  I'm wondering if the joke's on me
She is the refined little doe I'm trying to breed for, but those tiny teats... I am _so_ on the fence (I can spend 15 minutes trying to decide between brands of shampoo so I'm apparently not a real decisive person to begin with, but I feel way out of my depth here...)
The two bucks I have that she is not related to - one is mostly Twin Creeks with a smattering of Rosasharn, a line breeding on Goodwood Weisbaden, I am hopeful of him as his dam has a pretty good udder, as she should I guess, and large teats. The other buck is Rosasharn with some Twin Creeks and Goodwood Weisbaden again (that boy got around!) and his dam was very nice - his grand dam's were Rosasharn - Uni & Tom's Bit-a-Lilly. But the other thing, that is making it difficult, April's sire was my sweet little buck from Rosasharn Arwen, he was the first goat I have lost, he was only about 18 months old and had a stroke, very suddenly and inexplicably, the vet had to come out and put him to sleep and I just knelt beside him in the snow and bawled. April is the only baby I have from him  He died just before I was going to breed him to my new does, late last fall. I had such hopes for him, and he was such a sweetie. But it is making it hard to make an objective decision. April has her daddy's sweet quiet nature too.


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## ChestnutGrove (Apr 30, 2009)

I have seen some goats with the best breeding turn out awful - I have also seen and own goats out of "average" stock that turned out lovely and better than the pedigree would indicate.

Teats - Teats can and do change a lot - my big thing is orfice size - I can not stand a small orfice size and that does not change - all my does have a nice orfice size since it is so much easier for me to milk (since I milk by hand). Teat size changes a lot - expecially when you hand milk - and with future freshenings. And if you start seperating the kids for 12 hours so she can get a full udder - that will also help with teat size and it will help stretch her teats. 

Until the udder is full - you really do not know what you have yet. Like Stacy said - NDs it is hard not to get a little bit of a pocket - but that also goes for the standard dairy goat does too - take a look at an ADGA show. Now if you are talking about a big pocket - that is different. 

I love Arwen - but there is only so much a buck can improve and her son can only fix so much at one time. 

Remember - you can breed up - so if you want to keep her and bred up you can - sounds like you have some nice kids to work with. And it could be she will make a nice brood doe and out produce herself - like you said her sire is bred nicely. Don't be too quick to get rid of her - I know I have sold too many goats over the years that I never should have for one reason or another. 

Remember to compaire her to her dam - not sire's dam - that is what you are making the improvement on.

Deidre


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

do you need to thin our your herd some? are you looking to purchase another doe and have to get rid of one? because if you dont have to then why sell her? I have goats that arent perfect and I have them just because they are my pets. I also breed for quality but if I love a specific doe I am not going to sell her just because seh isnt quite right the first freshioning. 

Sounds like she was bred fairly young.....I would give her another freshioning before culling her

Pictures would greatly help though. I am a visual person


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## ChestnutGrove (Apr 30, 2009)

That is true - if you do not have to worry about herd size - you can even just keep her as a pet - I have several goats here that are "just pet". (nice thing about having plenty of land!) Pictures would help tell if it is a just wait and see - or a she would make a wonderful pet.

Deidre


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I agree, with young FF it is so hard to tell wether or not they will be better, but unless you freshen her a second time, you really won't know. I also think that if she is an improvement over her dam then you have already "bred up" and with the right bucks, her daughters could very well be alot better, Teat size does increase with use...Angel freshened last year with a nonexistent udder and very tiny teats...she was VERY young tho. This year, her udder was bigger but the teats were still small...but with perseverance, I can now milk her easily after 4 months fresh and she is a vast improbvement over her dam.

I would hold onto your doe, if not to give her a 2nd chance but because she is the only kid out of your deceased buck


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## Jenna (Jan 7, 2009)

I Thing I found out lately is that fore udders most of the time greatly improve upon second freshings. fore udders extend more, and smooths out. I would keep her.


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## wickedmum (May 21, 2009)

Thanks very much to everyone who responded - I really appreciate the input. If I can work out how to attach a photo to the post, I'll take a photo tomorrow night of the doe and her udder and post it. I just blocked the little hole one of her kids made in the fence between the kid and doe paddocks - I caught him with his head through it yesterday - he's been snacking when April has been obliging enough to sidle alongside the fence - what a resourceful young goat!!! Possibly his brother has been taking a turn too. This explained the Mystery of the Half Empty Udder the other morning, as well as why young Julian was barely drinking enough from the bottle to keep a hamster alive, and still thriving... 
So, I should be able to get a shot of a full udder tomorrow, unless young Julian gets his hooves on a wirecutter or takes up pole vaulting. I would be very grateful if those of you who have been kind enough to post would take a look and tell me honestly what you think. I don't know that much about conformation and perhaps she is just not as nice as I think she is, and maybe her udder is just too truly dreadful to be redeemed. 
Thanks again, everyone! I really appreciate you taking the time


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Easiest way to post pics here is with a Photobucket account, I'm pretty much puter stupid but photobucket makes it soo easy!

www.photobucket.com


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## poppypatch (May 30, 2009)

How is her rear udder width and height and her medial? 
If you look at the ADGA scorecard(not sure about AGS) and go to a few shows you will see rear udder counts for more points than fore udder.
If she lacks fore extension that could take some points on balance if she is missing the front third. Also depends on that how they are set up. Should be set up so that the hocks are at about the same distance in as the pin bones when you are looking down. Many Nigerian breeders over stretch their goats both in the rear and the front. The front legs should not be stretched forward but be set strait down from the shoulder like a goat would normally stand. 


Shannon
Poppy Patch Farm


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## wickedmum (May 21, 2009)

Ok, I gave April a quick (partial) clip - she was pretty fuzzy, and bits of her still are - and got some fairly awful photos which I will try to link to...please give me your honest opinions as to whether she is an "ok" doe whose udder could use some additional "breeding-up" or if she is just a total caprine disaster...
I've never done this photo linking thingy before so :worried:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

:shocked: What a gorgeous FF udder! With a bit more of a trim, her medial will look better, Her teats are very nicely placed and they will GROW! She has an awesome capacity too :drool: ... She can benefit from a higher rear but that is something you can improve upon with the right buck...so yes, she can be improved on. She is a very pretty girl too


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## RowdyKidz (Apr 2, 2009)

She is gorgeous! :drool: What a nice udder! Yep, all you need is a higher rear! She's a *very* nice doe!


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## ChestnutGrove (Apr 30, 2009)

This doe is more than okay - she has a lot going for her - I would show her - maybe she is not perfect but no goat is and you would be suprized how nice she is for a FF next to other FFs.

Do you know how hard it is in NDs to get a nice teat placement? She has pretty nice teat placement. She also has a nice teat size for a FF. 

She has nice teat placement (ideally I would want them not get so far to the outside BUT they may look different with a full udder and future freshenings), nice teat size, nice udder floor. Rear udder is best seen full to really now what you have but even with this picture it has potential. It is hard to tell about fore udder but from the picture I think she is very showable and could place well.

I like a dairy doe - your doe is nice and dairy in looks and has nice rear leg angulation. Overall she looks very nice.

Bobbi is always on me that I want perfection - and I do - I want the perfect goat (or animal) - they stay sounder and it improves their odds of going into old age in good health still being sound. But it is easy to throw the baby out with the bath water - I know I am trying to be better about that myself. Bobbi has told me several times that my culls (culls in my case means not used in a breeding program and sold for pets) are better than a lot of other people's show stock and breeding stock. You should be proud of your doe - she is a lot nicer than you think and a lot of people would be proud to have her in their herd (if you do decided to sell her I bet you have several people here that will jump at the chance to add her to their herd lols).

Deidre


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## wickedmum (May 21, 2009)

Thank you very much for your feedback! I thought she was quite a nice looking doe, but I don't trust my judgment at this point - I have so little experience - and her udder just seemed like such a failure!! We'll keep her and breed for a higher attachment and longer teats then. Hopefully next year we'll get at least one doeling out of her. I didn't really want to sell her but I have her great-grandma (source of the tiny teats) and she is the only "pet quality" doe I can justify myself keeping (she was my first goat, and she milks, too) 
Thank you again for your input!!


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## poppypatch (May 30, 2009)

She is not that bad! She has a lot of good things going for her that you can work with. I agree you should breed her again. A lot of does also look at lot better by their second freshening.

Shannon 
Poppy Patch Farm


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

she reminds me a lot of my Angie who won first in her class 3 times and second 1 time. So yes she is a nice doe and great potential. 

:thumb:


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