# Debudding Death



## trailriding2dressage (Mar 25, 2010)

In March my doe had a beautiful healthy doeling.

We normally sell our kids by the time they are a week old so we don't bother taking them to be disbudding- that way the new owner can decide if they want the horns or not.

At a week and a half we still had her, so we took her to the vet to be disbudded, (we have had this same vet do our disbudding 8 times now-we've only had goats for 3 years).

The vet likes to 'put them under' and then cut the horns out (using what reminds us of an apple corer). He then puts clotting stuff in the holes, gauze over the clotting stuff then wraps their heads really tight to stop the bleeding.

Everything was going normal until he raised 'Baby' up to hand her to us, blood gushed out of her nose, he said that, yeah, that happens sometime because the sinus' are near where he cuts.

We took her home and put her in the play pen (we keep them inside still) she 'slept' for a few hours and then started to 'come out of it'; having been through this now 9 times, we knew the drill...that evening we cut the wrap and (like always) struggled to remove the blood cemented bandage from the screaming kids head, and like always, we had to put more blood stop powder into the wounds because the removing of the bandage ripped some of the scabs off.

After that was all done we figured the worse was over, but she cried all night and the next morning she didn't want her bottle, over time she did finally drink it. She cried and cried, like she was lost and confused, and where normally holding them helps she still cried.

Because she was crying (very loud) there was no sleeping, Saturday 4:30 am, she stopped breathing, our older brother and dad did CPR for a good 20 minutes (having to open her mouth because her nose was clogged with blood), she'd start breathing again only to stop, nothing worked and sadly she passed away.

Having been through disbudding 8 times we knew something was wrong, especially when the blood came pouring from her nose- that's never happened before (but because the vet said the blood from the nose was normal, I ignored my gut, which I will always regret!).

We've never liked having the buds cut out, *but our vet assures us that cutting the buds out is better than burning.*

But after what we went through, we're never having them cut out again (we have friends who have goats and burns the buds off-we're going to have them do ours now-oh, and btw our friends have been in the goat world forever and have never lost a kid to disbudding).

Our questions;

First, what is procedure of 'cutting the buds out' called? We've tried searching online but can't find any information about it.

How do you feel about cutting vs burning? From what we've read about burning the buds off, the kids are back to their happy selves in a matter of minutes. Our kids take a good two days before they're back to playing.

What do you think happened with 'Baby'? We're guessing that either the vet cut to deep or 'Baby' had a reaction to the anesthetic.

...I email this question to Hobby Farms Vet Question and got an email back saying, that they don't know if my question will be chosen to be answer but (to quote), 
"Like you, I've not heard of manual disbudding (i.e., non-heat, non-chemical) in goats, although it is an option presented to cattle farmers-in fact, from your description, it sounds like the tool your vet used may have been a dehorner designed for calves."

(And please note, this IS A KID not a grown goat, we were not dehorning, we were debudding....when we tried googling it we got a lot of answers about cutting horns off.)


----------



## peggy (Aug 11, 2010)

So sorry for your loss. It is a hard thing. I have never heard of this being done to a baby goat!


----------



## Mandara Farm (Sep 12, 2010)

I have no answers for you, only wanted to say I'm so sorry this happened to your little goatie. :hug: 

It constantly amazes and upsets me how often it seems to happen that vets just dont know much about goats. What is up with that! If they're a livestock vet, it logically follows that goats would be part of their training.


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

First off, I am very sorry for your loss.  :hug:

Secondly, if you can...i'd try and find a new vet and try and get this one to pay for the damages. This is not how a "disbudding" is supposed to go. I'm quoting you and answering your questions in bold font below....



> First, what is procedure of 'cutting the buds out' called? We've tried searching online but can't find any information about it.
> *The procedure was not disbudding, but dehorning...which is not necessary on a young kid with horn buds. The anesthesia is especially hard on goats and I do not recommend surgical dehorning when disbudding is available via electric disbudding iron.*
> 
> How do you feel about cutting vs burning? From what we've read about burning the buds off, the kids are back to their happy selves in a matter of minutes. Our kids take a good two days before they're back to playing.
> ...


This vet should have known better...a normal disbudding job and this very likely wouldn't have happened. Definately look for a new vet or even a smart breeder who disbuds their own kids will do a much better job and you won't have to worry about your kids dying. It will be cheaper too. Again, very sorry for your loss. :hug:


----------



## Saanens N Alpines (Oct 20, 2010)

I have read other such horror stories of goats dying after a vet cuts horns out. I think I have read one about a vet burning horns off and the goat dying, too, because they did it far too agressively Our experience with burning is that they are fine as soon as it's done, and I believe it is safer. I know there may be vets out there who know what they are doing with this, but it seems most of them just don't have much knowledge about goats. Find a breeder who has been using a dusbudding iron for years and watch them and have them teach you. I'm so sorry your baby had to suffer and die because of what the vet did to her


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry...  :hug:  wish I had an answer....


----------



## BareCreekFarm (Nov 20, 2011)

I do not know anything about disbudding goats because we raise Boers. We did have one kid done before, but the vet used an iron. I am sorry about what happened to your Baby. :hug: I hope your vet makes things right.


----------



## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

trailriding2dressage said:


> our vet assures us that cutting the buds out is better than burning


 :hair: GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is all I can say about that.

I am so sorry you lost your Baby. Especially at the hands of one whom is, in my not so humble opinion, an incompetent vet.

I would pretty much ditto KW Farms answers. Our babies scream for a few seconds, have a bottle and run off to play.


----------



## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I am so so sorry for you loss. I know it must be so heart breaking. 

I am so glad I do not have to remove horns. We have to have them, thank the lord.


----------



## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

I'm so sorry also... that is a very sad story.. but 'going under' is always risky. I watched burning last year on my kids and did it myself this year on 8 kids. It went great. It wasn't difficult, the goats weren't very stressed, and went right to nurse on momma and played the rest of the day. I'd recommend it over other methods.


----------



## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

milk and honey said:


> I'm so sorry also... that is a very sad story.. but 'going under' is always risky. I watched burning last year on my kids and did it myself this year on 8 kids. It went great. It wasn't difficult, the goats weren't very stressed, and went right to nurse on momma and played the rest of the day. I'd recommend it over other methods.


Agreed! A lot less risky!!!


----------



## Goat Hollow (Apr 1, 2012)

I'm sorry for your loss. If a person wants to become a livestock vet, you would think goats (and all the medical issues that come with them) would be covered and not foreign!

At least you have a friend who can disbudd for you. That's the only method I've encountered.


----------



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

Poor baby... And poor you! :hug: Using an iron is the ONLY way I will ever disbud my goats, and I really do find it to be the most humane, least painful way. I've tried the paste, but it was horrible watching them thrash around for up to 24 hours. Not to mention it's just all around stressful trying to get the paste on a wriggling kid, and not on you (did that once!)!

I have a close friend come and disbud my kids simply because she is so good at it and is so fast (I can do my own, but I love her speed). She does three seconds on each bud, and then takes the cap off. I can't stress enough how the BEST way to go about disbudding is to find a nearby breeder and not a vet!! Not only will it be cheaper for you to use a breeder, but the end result will be better, and they will most likely teach you how to do it too if you wish. It takes a total of 1 minute for my friend to disbud a kid, they run and either get a drink of milk from mama goat, or a bottle from me, and then their back to running around and butting heads with each other!


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Firstly, even when a vet surgically disbuds...or whatever he actually did...doesn't keep them from having scurs. I have bought two now from a farm close by that has the vet do something surgical with them and they both have bigger scurs than my own. I have had enough bad experiences with vets and heard enough stories I always take their knowledge with a grain of salt and inform myself...because there are so many instances where the vet is just outright ignorant on this or that subject.

Secondly, I don't know why you would leave the paste on 24 hours... I always use the paste because I'm paranoid of the iron after hearing some horror stories of kids dying from swelled brains because they burned a little too long. I use duct tape helmets to avoid eye burns and have had zero issues with eyes, burning my own skin, etc. I leave the paste on for twenty minutes and then rinse off with water and vinegar and they are fine. Scream more when I am clipping their heads with the shaver. Mine usually scratch at the duct tape with their back feet, shake their head a little and then seem to forget about the whole thing and explore...but I always do iton their first outing to the back lawn so they seem to be too tempted to look into every nook and cranny of that yard. Also, I have NEVER had scurs with the paste using this method to date. All my scurred goats came from farms where they used an iron or had the vet do a surgical.


----------



## PznIvyFarm (Jul 25, 2010)

So sorry for your loss.

I have never heard of the horns being gouged on a baby - my vet did a surgical removal on a one year old goat i had purchased who still had horns. He said to leave the head wrap on for 3 days at least and let her rub most of it off, otherwise she could start bleeding again (so i think your vet was dumb all the way around) Not your fault, we entrust our animals to their care, thinking they know better after years of study, but that is not always the case, and even worse to me, many will not admit they don't know how to do something. With my doe she did ultimately end up with scurs, but they are better than the horns she did have. 

Even though i hate doing it, the disbudding iron is the best way to go. Get an expert to show you how, preferably do some yourself with supervision and then you won't have to worry about dealing with this horrible vet again. Don't know where you are located, but if you are in NY, i still have 9 babies to do in the next few weeks, i'd be happy to show you (I don't hold myself out as an expert, more like an amateur, but i had 7 babies in 2010 and I did 4 of them, and i just did two more on my own earlier this week and all turned out pretty good imo)


----------



## Goat Song (May 4, 2011)

firelight27 said:


> Secondly, I don't know why you would leave the paste on 24 hours... I always use the paste because I'm paranoid of the iron after hearing some horror stories of kids dying from swelled brains because they burned a little too long. I use duct tape helmets to avoid eye burns and have had zero issues with eyes, burning my own skin, etc. I leave the paste on for twenty minutes and then rinse off with water and vinegar and they are fine. Scream more when I am clipping their heads with the shaver. Mine usually scratch at the duct tape with their back feet, shake their head a little and then seem to forget about the whole thing and explore...but I always do iton their first outing to the back lawn so they seem to be too tempted to look into every nook and cranny of that yard. Also, I have NEVER had scurs with the paste using this method to date. All my scurred goats came from farms where they used an iron or had the vet do a surgical.


You rinse it off after 20 minutes?!?!? :shocked: Well by Jove, you learn something new every day! I spoke to both a friend, and a vet, and they both told me that the paste had to stay on permanently, and it would just eventually wear off on it's own. I feel so horrible now! It was years ago that I tried the paste, but golly... I can see how it wouldn't be so bad if you rinsed it off after a short bit... Maybe I'll give the paste another try before condemning it again.  Thank you for the enlightenment, Firelight!


----------



## mtmom75 (May 19, 2011)

I'm so sorry you lost your little one.  I can remember when I was a kid, my best friend's family raised cattle, and the vet used to come and dehorn the calves that way. My guess is that your vet is more familiar with cows than goats (as many vets are), so he does the dehorning the only way he knows how. How unfortunate. 

This was my first year disbudding babies. I used an electric disbudding iron, and although they screamed terribly while I was doing it, they were up playing around as soon as I put them back out with their mommas. I highly recommend it. Plus, at around $80, an electric disbudding iron is probably much less expensive in the longrun than having the vet do them every time. :thumb:


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Goat Song said:


> firelight27 said:
> 
> 
> > Secondly, I don't know why you would leave the paste on 24 hours... I always use the paste because I'm paranoid of the iron after hearing some horror stories of kids dying from swelled brains because they burned a little too long. I use duct tape helmets to avoid eye burns and have had zero issues with eyes, burning my own skin, etc. I leave the paste on for twenty minutes and then rinse off with water and vinegar and they are fine. Scream more when I am clipping their heads with the shaver. Mine usually scratch at the duct tape with their back feet, shake their head a little and then seem to forget about the whole thing and explore...but I always do iton their first outing to the back lawn so they seem to be too tempted to look into every nook and cranny of that yard. Also, I have NEVER had scurs with the paste using this method to date. All my scurred goats came from farms where they used an iron or had the vet do a surgical.
> ...


Lol..Yeah, I use Dr. Naylor's paste. Its orange stuff. It was confusing at first to figure out the correct amount of time, but 20 minutes does it for me. For bucks whose horn buds are already quite big I might leave it on an extra 5. I always do it at 6-7 days old. Some people still think its cruel to burn their heads for twenty minutes but mine never act like they are too distressed. I even put a dab on my own arm to see how it felt before doing it to the kids and it took awhile to sting and was only mildly uncomfortable for me. Wanted to try it on myself to see how it felt before I did it to them. Weird maybe...Lol. But a splash of vinegar kills the reaction immediately.


----------



## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Thank you both for bringing up the paste thing. I had wondered about it as everything I read makes it sound horrible but the feed store still sells it so somebody must use it.
I would consider using it if it only took 20 minutes; if I did not have my hubby around to do the burning.
We did three today in less than 10 minutes and they all jumped down and ran off to play as soon as we were done.


----------



## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I used the paste once on a set of kids. Not one had even a hint of a scur. They didn't like it too much at first, but after a few minutes seemed to forget. I left it on for the time it says on the box. Can't remember now if it said 30 minutes or 1 hour, but it worked. Now I just use an iron, works just as good and you are done a little sooner.


----------



## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

FYI... there is a really good disbudding video in the goats 101 section of the forum.. It was very helpful for me..


----------



## trailriding2dressage (Mar 25, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the feed back! 

I have to say that my entire family is freaking out hearing so many people say they've never heard of this being done to a kid.

:shrug: The vet assured us that this was the best option and that you don't get scurs cutting them out...well, we've had 8 kids done by him and all of them have scurs.... :hair: 

 We feel so bad, we normally do research on things and because it was a simple debudding we-as one of you said- trusted the vet to know what he was doing...

All I know is that I will never take a vets word for anything ever again- I'll get second opinions and check the web before I make a decision...

We're treating this as a major learning experience, not just a tragedy. 

Thanks again everyone for your help and support!!!!!


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

It's always good if something a vet says or does sounds off...to question it...because they don't all know everything. And goats especially take a lot of hands on learning...and since there aren't that many goat owners out there and most breeders do everything on their own...sometimes the vets just don't have the experience or know how to do something goat related..especially.

I'd trust most experienced breeders to do a simple goat procedure like disbudding, vaccinating, castrating, etc. over a vet. On the other hand, there are some really great goat vets out there who do a fabulous job...but you usually don't know that unless you give them a shot. :thumb:

Sometimes too, before waiting til a procedure is needed or an emergency...ask the goat breeders around your area what vet they use or if they know of a good one. Sometimes just that can prevent a disaster. :hi5:


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

It has been my experience that many vets kind of guess when it comes to goats. They assume they are like sheep and they are most certainly not. Usually I would never advise to listen to someone else over a vet...but in the case of goats, I follow the advice of experienced breeders first. And when I say experienced I mean 10+ years breeding/raising a larger number of goats. I take hints and tips from less experienced people and different things work differently for people...but with major things I go straight to experienced breeders and do exactly what they tell me as long as they have faced the issue before. I love my horse/dog vets but would never trust them to give me good goat advice. That being said I would absolutely trust them with what they would tell me for my horse/dog. And THAT being said, vets who deal with more common animals are still not all equal. There is a dog/cat vet around here that has a bad record as far as needless deaths go simply due to ignorance. Many people go to him because he is friendly and cheap and they have never had a major issue that needed resolved, therefore he hasn't messed up. But other vets tell me they clean up after him time and again. Just because they have a license doesn't mean they are competent. Always get second opinions, ask lots of questions and do your own research.


----------

