# DNA testing before buying?



## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

I’ve seen some drama going on with DNA testing in NDs discovering incorrect parentage (whether accidentally or intentionally misrepresented) and entire lines getting their papers pulled. As there is no grade registration for ND, if papers are pulled you are out of luck no matter how nice the animal. 

We’re on a reservation list for two doelings this year. I’m wondering if we should request DNA parentage verification before buying. I have no reason to suspect anything is amiss, but I don’t want to invest $$$$ and end up with stock that can’t be registered or has their papers pulled. 

We are in the process of DNAing our bucks, and plan to pull hair for the whole herd so parentage can be verified eventually, especially when selling bucks. It’s been heartbreaking to see what some people are going through and I’m sure there is much more to come as DNA typing of bucks become required by ADGA. 

Do you guys think it is reasonable to request DNA verification before putting down a deposit on two doelings?


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## wheel-bear-o (Jul 6, 2020)

I wouldn't be offended if a buyer asked me to do this, no. 

Do you have sources for the current drama? I'm worried and want to make sure none of our animals are affected.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

I would have no problem with a buyer requesting. I would most likely do it only if they had a deposit on the animal though. With conditions that if the DNA was wrong, the deposit would be refunded. But, I have my boys all done and hand breed (but we know accidents do happen and sometimes sneakily) so I wouldn't have a problem.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

I've seen some of the drama going down and wow, what a mess! I feel so awful for the innocent people whose entire herds are affected.

I'd be totally fine with DNA verifying the kids (especially in light of the recent issues) at the buyer's expense. I just had to DNA test 4 kids because the litter had 2 sires, and the tests plus registration was quite a expensive. If there is any doubt as to parentage, it's absolutely worth it though.


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## AndersonRanch (Oct 18, 2020)

Honestly I can see why your nervous but if you asked me I would tell you to go buy from someone else. I am not going to jump threw any extra hoops or have any more extra expenses for the fact that someone doesn’t trust me because of what a few other unethical breeders have done. Yes I’m sure that is very blunt and very rude but I like hassle free and have NEVER given anyone a reason to not think I was totally honest. 
You should also know before you bring this up, if you do that 1. It’s $40 to DNA, I’m sure the breeder is not willing to pay that. And 2. A breeder I know was unsure of a buckling sire so sent DNA in back in July and between the Corona and being under staffed and anything else companies like to use as a excuse right now she didn’t get her results back until the first of February. Even if I was willing to do it and I didn’t know it would take that long you bet there would be some hard feelings if I had to feed someones animal for 7 months all to ease their mind. 
Most breeders though are NOT going to risk a bad name or being booted out of a registry over the wrong parents. Heck I have a nice little doeling that I’m not totally sure who the sire is and she will be going to the sale yard. I’m taking a few hundred dollars loss because my name is worth WAY more then that.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

wheel-bear-o said:


> Do you have sources for the current drama? I'm worried and want to make sure none of our animals are affected.


The drama I've seen is on Facebook. The people who have been wronged don't want to name the breeders because they're "taking the high road," but since the ripple effect is so widespread and could potentially affect so many more people, i think it does more harm than good to be secretive. The ones I've seen mentioned are Wood Bridge Farm (Sir Charles in particular) and Valley Edge Farm. Both Nigerian breeders.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Agreed, it's expensive and it would most likely be at buyers expense for most people. 

I have to DNA kids from these next 3 girls due this weekend. Bucks got out and I have 2 sires. I will DNA the does but all bys will get wethered and sold. I don't want to spend the $$ to deal with that. I may even sell some of the girls unpapered. It's a big expense.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

If you're an ADGA member, DNA testing is $30 and it took about 3 weeks to get mine done total, from requesting the tests to getting the results. This was in December/January. It's a hassle because you have to fill out information online, then wait for ADGA to snail mail the paperwork/labels to you, then you mail the samples to the lab and the paperwork to ADGA. Their new website is supposed to be updated so that you can print the forms yourself rather than waiting for ADGA to send them. But yes, it's definitely not something I can afford to do unless the buyer will pay for it, and I like Jubillee's idea of a deposit first. I think it's so cool that the testing is even available though!


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## wheel-bear-o (Jul 6, 2020)

Calistar said:


> If you're an ADGA member, DNA testing is $30 and it took about 3 weeks to get mine done total, from requesting the tests to getting the results. This was in December/January. It's a hassle because you have to fill out information online, then wait for ADGA to snail mail the paperwork/labels to you, then you mail the samples to the lab and the paperwork to ADGA. Their new website is supposed to be updated so that you can print the forms yourself rather than waiting for ADGA to send them. But yes, it's definitely not something I can afford to do unless the buyer will pay for it, and I like Jubillee's idea of a deposit first. I think it's so cool that the testing is even available though!


I completely agree that it is appropriate to ask the buyer to pay this fee if they request the test. As a breeder I wouldn't expect to pay it out of pocket unless I was doing it for myself.

I also agree it's really pointless and counterproductive for those who have discovered animals with falsified or incorrect lineages to be secretive when this could affect the entire community.

Personally I'm currently trying to initiate DNA testing for two of my Nigerians, but ADGA'S website says the printable form is somehow "currently unavailable." If they're going to make buck testing required across the board in just two years, I hope they're able to streamline this process.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

The Sir Charles one and Valley’s Edge were the ones I know about. It’s so awful how many people’s herds are affected. And I’m sure we’re just going to see more as more get DNA typed. 

It is expensive, and I might just contact the breeder to see if sire and dams have been typed then offer to pay for the kids typing myself. I have two litters this year where I’ll be typing the kids as we bred to two different bucks.


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## AlabamaGirl (Jun 18, 2020)

Even if you DNA type these goats, what happens if their grand-parents or great-grandparents have incorrect registry information?


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

AlabamaGirl said:


> Even if you DNA type these goats, what happens if their grand-parents or great-grandparents have incorrect registry information?


I know, it's an awful thought. I could currently have goats that get papers pulled if something is off from great grand parents. Hopefully once all bucks are required to be tested things will settle out.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

NDinKY said:


> I've seen some drama going on with DNA testing in NDs discovering incorrect parentage (whether accidentally or intentionally misrepresented) and entire lines getting their papers pulled. As there is no grade registration for ND, if papers are pulled you are out of luck no matter how nice the animal.
> 
> We're on a reservation list for two doelings this year. I'm wondering if we should request DNA parentage verification before buying. I have no reason to suspect anything is amiss, but I don't want to invest $$$$ and end up with stock that can't be registered or has their papers pulled.
> 
> ...


I saw tidbits about this. Those poor breeders and buyers that this happened to. I would love to know more details cause the ones given were very minimal. :/. But i also think the people involved are very good and professional about their explanation too. But i also think there is a lawsuit or many from this that will happen too. As it will ruin many many farms. So maybe they have to be hush hush.


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## AlabamaGirl (Jun 18, 2020)

NDinKY said:


> I know, it's an awful thought. I could currently have goats that get papers pulled if something is off from great grand parents. Hopefully once all bucks are required to be tested things will settle out.


Good luck with everything!


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## Tapsmom (Sep 20, 2011)

We had an Oops breeding this year. We have 3 kids on the ground that we are unsure of the sire. ( the bucks got out with the does which has never happened in the 8 years we have been breeding)
BUT, all of our bucks are being dna tested now, we aredna testingthe doeling and the boys will go as wethers. We will inform the buyers about the wethers sire and offer them the option to dna test if they want to know the parents. But that would be at their expense since I do sell the wethers for considerably less.  But being honest is mych more important to me.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Sfgwife said:


> I saw tidbits about this. Those poor breeders and buyers that this happened to. I would love to know more details cause the ones given were very minimal. :/. But i also think the people involved are very good and professional about their explanation too. But i also think there is a lawsuit or many from this that will happen too. As it will ruin many many farms. So maybe they have to be hush hush.


The amount of money that some people invest in these big-name herd animals, it doesn't surprise me if there are lawsuits. If you built your entire herd for years and then one day, all of it is null and void...that would be such a heartbreaking thing.

I see that it's in the ND side a lot...I know it's happened in the Nubians...has anyone heard what herd or specific animals from the Nubians have been affected? I turned off FB a few weeks ago for a break so I have been out of the loop.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Jubillee said:


> The amount of money that some people invest in these big-name herd animals, it doesn't surprise me if there are lawsuits. If you built your entire herd for years and then one day, all of it is null and void...that would be such a heartbreaking thing.
> 
> I see that it's in the ND side a lot...I know it's happened in the Nubians...has anyone heard what herd or specific animals from the Nubians have been affected? I turned off FB a few weeks ago for a break so I have been out of the loop.


I think i may have been making minis? And yes that is what i thought about holy cow all the people that spent big bucks and their whole herds are based on a few animals.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

We’re fortunate right now that we’re only a few years in so have a lot of diverse bloodlines. However, we’ve tried to step up our game, so if our new buck is affected we’re out a ton of money, and he’s super nice. Really makes me gun-shy to invest in anything. The ones I have now are already a sunk cost.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I DNA type my bucks and hand breed so I know who is who. If there is ever a question, I will test the kids as well. As a seller, I want to have my buyer's confidence in what they are paying for is what they are getting. I will not test all kids, if the buyer wants to do that it's fine, because I know I won't have a problem. They can also pay for this before they leave my farm.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I just found out that one of my bucks (who died shortly after I got him but did manage to breed at least 2 does) is from one of the farms who has the questionable DNA. The people I got him from have a couple of their does who are now in question. They have a small show herd and have put a lot of time and money into their animals, not to mention trust in the breeder. They have tried to get in touch with the breeder (who they also consider a friend) but the breeder has not returned any calls, emails, messages or texts.


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## wheel-bear-o (Jul 6, 2020)

Some friend. What a scumbag.

Honestly if the ADGA doesn't ban this person for life I'm going to lose a lot of faith in them as an organization. This isn't the occasional one-off accident, which is totally excusable with livestock keeping, this is what appears to be a years-long campaign of fraud.


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## CBPitts (Jan 29, 2020)

From what I understand, the source breeder is responsible for all the corrections? I’m not sure how to enforce that but I guess it’s fair?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with asking.

Do know, you can look up the the DNA record from the registry with his registration number, if it is like ABGA.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I have buck from a well known breeder who is way up in the ADGA organization. ADGA sent me a letter stating that the parentage of that buck is in question and that I would be receiving a DNA test kit in the mail. 6 weeks after that- I just received the kit. (thanks US mail). Surprised me to see that even big time responsible breeders can make mistakes! 

The breeder said the doe had twins, my buck and a sister. She somehow overlooked the sister's dna test until she was 3 yrs. old. That doe's sire was not who was on the papers- big oops. My buck may have a different sire! Apparently, the other buck loose and someone forgot to tell the breeder! (yes, does can get bred by 2 different bucks and have kids with 2 different dads!) Of course the breeder was horrified and embarrassed. I am glad it got discovered before I registered 15 kids from last year! (who says procrastination is bad) 

So, the breeder is now DNA testing each kid before it leaves the breeder's farm. I think it would be fine to ask for DNA confirmation. It would protect you and the breeder. I would think maybe splitting the cost would be fair. Or the breeder could tack it onto the sale price. 

Isn't the ADGA site down right now for their switching over to a new system?


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

We have used buck from the breeder in question for YEARS. Even when I used bucks from other farms, they usually were from her breedings. Thankfully, I only have a tiny herd. I have been reassured that my does are clear. Their sire's sire was in question. But apparently there were enough folks that previously did dna testing that proved that breeding was true. Still waiting to find out about the buck we sold to @lottsagoats1 . It's a real nail biter, especially considering that Valleys-Edge has GORGEOUS animals - very dairy and very correct, and such easy keepers. There is a reason why so many people want/have her goats!


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## Gooseberry Creek (Jun 3, 2020)

One of our bucks and one of our does has their DNA on file. The breeder did it before we bought them.
I am planning on DNA my other buckling and any other intact buck I plan to keep. I wouldn't be offended if someone asked me to DNA a kid I was selling but I would be adding that cost to the sale price. Its not free so... 
If I had a question of who the sire was due to the bucks getting out or some mistake on my part I would surely DNA the kids before they even went up for sale.


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