# between a rock and a hard place



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

This really is by far not the worst thing Ive ever been through but these two things just have me frustrated with no clear answer on what to do.

1st I have a doe, Ziva who is 5 out of my first registered doe who I still currently have - Sweet Pea. SP had Ziva when I was still living at home and the second year my Grandmother lived with us. My grandmother got very attached to the goats especially those first two years and never understood how I could sell kids and she would be heart broken when they left. So I told her if SP had a girl I was keeping it and she could name her. Well SP had quads again and only one was a girl so immediately when i pointed out the girl Grandmom said "thats Ziva." Ive called her "grandmom's goat" ever since. 

Ziva kidded for the first time and just didnt push so I had to fish out the first kid and then the other two came out just fine. The second time she kidded (2 years ago) she never pushed and it took all of my friends and my efforts to get the three kids out (and they werent big). My friend who has been through dozens an dozens and dozens of kiddings with many different outcomes (Csections, pulling kids, easy kidding etc) said "she should never be bred again." and I agreed (and still do agree). The next kidding could result in a dead doe or Csection at best. So I gave her to my friend who wanted brush clearers. Well after a time I decided I was able to bring my goats back to with me to my new home and my friend told me to take Ziva, but she kept her two does (that we fished out of her the last kidding). 

To keep this long story longer - I have Ziva here with me and I cant breed her and SHE IS A BULLY! She is bullying her mom (who was ALWAYS herd queen and is 8 now) and the other 2 bred does as well as my little junior doe. 

I cant sell her because I cant be sure no one else will breed her plus she is in a way "grandmoms goat" (I even get my aunt asking me "hows Ziva?" - everyone knows Ziva because she was my pride and joy, aways placing first and winning Reserve then junior grand, then BOB).

2nd at my new home we arent quite sure the livestock/goat laws but we bought the house anyway because the one closest neighbor is really just a vacant house with people who stop by to keep it from falling apart. And we see livestock even goats in the area. Anyway we brought my buck here on a temporary situation to get the girls bred and hopes to maybe keep him here forever. My Husband believes he heard the other neighbors say something about the smell (personally I hate teh buck smell and I cant even smell it unless i go near his pen, so I have no idea how they could smell him across our field which is over an acre. But way thats what he believes he heard). So I decided to offer him back to his breeder who is always asking me if I will sell him back. Of course she wants him back. But I really dont want to sell him  

Guess I will have a pen for my bossy girl once he leaves..... but of course I will feel terrible putting her by herself since she is use to a herd, but then i think, the buck is all alone in that pen she will be fine. Just hope she doesnt make to much noise *sigh*


----------



## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Hmmm. What a situation. Are you able to do any training with her, like water spray bottles, to keep her from bullying?? Not sure if that would work or not. I have a bully. The herd queen. However, she is a biter. If anyone gets near her, she bites and holds onto their ears...If I am there and yell at her, she doesn't do it, but will as soon as I am gone...


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

City people smell things quicker than we do. I would just sell him and rent bucks when you need one. As far as Ziva, keep her separate but if the right opportunity comes up, sell her. It will be hard but you have a son to worry about first. You don't need to worry about city officials or your other goats getting hurt.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would first go down or call and find out the laws for live stock in your area...if its legal and you are with the in the guidelines, then your nieghbors will have to deal ; ) not to be mean, but if you are within your rights to keep the buck, then do so..If they come to you and it becomes a real problem you dont want to deal withthen decide what to do. 
Next, Ziva in her own pen might help knock her down a notch or two...getting mom back on top as herd queen...


----------



## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

How about having Ziva spayed? Would make sure she is never bred, and may just calm her bullying.

As for the buck, I would offer him back, with his "price" being free breedings for as long as she owns him.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Spaying isn't something people do with goats and we don't have that kind of money. 

My friend is in MA - to far away


----------



## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

:sigh: Bummer, that sucks on both counts. I hope you can get it all worked out.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ksalvagno said:


> City people smell things quicker than we do. I would just sell him and rent bucks when you need one. As far as Ziva, keep her separate but if the right opportunity comes up, sell her. It will be hard but you have a son to worry about first. You don't need to worry about city officials or your other goats getting hurt.


True and since I dont want issues I just went ahead and contacted my friend. But she cant pick him up till sometime in February or maybe even march. Im hoping to breed one more doe to him. This buck I reserved for WAY before he was even conceived! I wanted him so bad and I still dont have any kids from him!! Three Havens has his only daughter I ever got. But if I get some does from my girls I will be happy and I will feel better about selling him. But Im looking into seeing if someone in the area boards and what the cost will be. Because if I have multiple does to breed so the cost of boarding could be the same as leasing a buck or two.

as to selling Ziva - thats hard, I would if the right person came along, but I cant trust that no one would breed her so I would feel terrible about it. And honestly Im not sure I can take the sadness from my grandmom if she finds out. She has a large photo of Ziva in her kitchen.



happybleats said:


> I would first go down or call and find out the laws for live stock in your area...if its legal and you are with the in the guidelines, then your nieghbors will have to deal ; ) not to be mean, but if you are within your rights to keep the buck, then do so..If they come to you and it becomes a real problem you dont want to deal withthen decide what to do.
> Next, Ziva in her own pen might help knock her down a notch or two...getting mom back on top as herd queen...


I know I need to do that - Julio wants to. But Im afraid if I find out we cant have goats here I will panic for the rest of the time we live here (which as it stands will be forever which I would love).


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

You got the title of your thread right, Stacey. What a tough position to be in. I hope you can figure it out and get it all worked out to everyone's satisfaction


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Sorry about your predicament Stacy . Hopefully you can get free breedings if you sell your buck. It was mentioned by someone already i know , but is that something that can be agreed upon ?
I really hope Ziva accepts and comes to like her own pen. Maybe by then her mom can reclaim her status of herd queen. Ziva needs someone to put her in her place. Would her outlook be different once she is separated from the herd then reintroduced once her momma has reclaimed her position ? That way , everyone is "above" her in the pecking order…..


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Hey , you know , I was just thinking. Maybe Julio overheard neighbors talking about how bucks stink but not necessarily talking about your buck stinking 

I hope that's the case for you .


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yikes! Sorry to hear of your predicaments;( I just thought if Ziva was noisy being in her own pen, perhaps a pet wether would be a good option for a buddy? Just a thought.


----------



## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Ugh that is rough. Especially with the fact I am a buck person(I get teased for being a collector, but I think of myself more a connoisseur, lol) and strangely (this is a little embarrassing to admit) enjoy their musk. I understand not everyone can appreciate that much masculinity. I hope you can get a few does out of him before he leaves.

Ziva that's a tough one. To bad you can't kid her out one more time even if it were to giver a companion. I have seperated does out and reintroduced, I hope if you do try this it works for you, and did not have great luck. Something that did work was my standards wouldnt stand for it at all. I did eventually sending this doe and her daughter when were equally matched down the road and now their is such peace in the herd, and I don't really have a queen they seem to be content to share the boss job.


----------



## Mac's Rainbow (Jul 30, 2012)

You could put a buck apron on the buck if you can keep him and then put Ziva in with him and you don't have to worry about her getting bred. They do work. Just a thought.
Ggg
SKM Mac's Rainbow Nigerians


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Mac's Rainbow said:


> You could put a buck apron on the buck if you can keep him and then put Ziva in with him and you don't have to worry about her getting bred. They do work. Just a thought.
> Ggg
> SKM Mac's Rainbow Nigerians


A buck apron, what is that? Where do you get one of those? I could use that, it would make my life a whole lot easier;-)


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Im thinking of asking my friend who has her daughters if she will take her back at least till my does kid because I just cant risk her thumping Flash Point to the point of aborting! She could be missing her daughters too. And the other junior doe she in a way "mothered" was just sold so she just is a bit moody. 

Separating her could work, or it could make her extra angry and more likely to want to thump them when reintroduced. I dont have any wethers no do I want to get one just to give her a companion, I cant afford to be feeding goats that dont produce (and I already have that with HER). 

Her mom has always been herd queen - but a good one, not mean or anything (well not once bred, which usually is when everyone else is bred so I dont worry about her hurting anyone).


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> I know I need to do that - Julio wants to. But Im afraid if I find out we cant have goats here I will panic for the rest of the time we live here (which as it stands will be forever which I would love).


Its like testing for CAE..scary to know the truth but it wont change the results not testing...knowledge is power...even if its not what we want to hear...I would just call...no need to give an address or name....you might need to give general location, be sure to ask about small goats..and if there is a limit to how many...


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

yeah I know ........................


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

StaceyRosado said:


> yeah I know ........................


It'll be OK :hug:


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

StaceyRosado said:


> Im thinking of asking my friend who has her daughters if she will take her back at least till my does kid because I just cant risk her thumping Flash Point to the point of aborting! She could be missing her daughters too. And the other junior doe she in a way "mothered" was just sold so she just is a bit moody.
> 
> Separating her could work, or it could make her extra angry and more likely to want to thump them when reintroduced. I dont have any wethers no do I want to get one just to give her a companion, I cant afford to be feeding goats that dont produce (and I already have that with HER).
> 
> Her mom has always been herd queen - but a good one, not mean or anything (well not once bred, which usually is when everyone else is bred so I dont worry about her hurting anyone).


I understand why you wouldn't want to get a wether. I am starting to have the same mind set as you. I have 2 ober wethers, and 2 wether sheep that I'm considering selling since they are non producers. I hope you find out good news about you place... You have Nigerians do that should be on your favor;-)


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

just down the road is another breeder "Top Hat Farm" (KW Farms got her new buck from them) 

So unless there is an acreage issue we should be fine.......


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

That sounds like a good idea Stacy. Once she is away for a while , at least you won't be worrying about that issue.
I wish I could help you , but i just don't have the room here now with my does expecting , Im going to need the little extra room I have.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

awe thanks Laura - but I will figure something out.


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Just wanted you to know , if your in a spot , I will do what I can


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I believe its mostly just at feeding time and I can always pull FlashPoint out to eat on her own.


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Yeah , i hear ya. That's when my "hornless" goats grow horns too 
I always separate one half of the herd and the NDs eat in their own dining area. Sweetpea has her own dining area , lol. I don't think she would have a chance to grow more if she didn't


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> just down the road is another breeder "Top Hat Farm" (KW Farms got her new buck from them)


Why not go talk to them? they may have already made sure its fine : ) You have a good head on your shoulders Stacy..I know you will work it all out...Doesnt make some of the chocies easy, but we do what we have to do to keep going...:hug:


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Laura the other little one - the little black doe Celine gets her feed in the barn and I carry her back to the herd when she is done


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Man that sure is tough Stacey :hug: I sure hope you get some doe kids from Rider! I know what it's like waiting for a reserved kid and then it not working out ect..  I'm sorry.. Hopefully everything works out with Ziva too. :hug:


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Spoke with my friend who has Ziva's daughters and she said two things
1) she would talk to her husband about taking Ziva back for a short time or forever (she even said she can hardly get near one of the daughters since her mom left )
2) she reiterated whats been said about calling the township. She made me promise to call tomorrow and she would text me to remind me she said. :sigh:


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I know in our area, they are starting to pass law's where you can have small goats such as ND in yards, not sure the rules, but I think you can have 2-3?

I hope it works out with Ziva, but IMO, if it doesn't you need to make a decision. I know she means a lot to you because of your Grandma, but is it worth having a problem doe that could possibly hurt one of the others? Especially when your son starts going out into the pen. We won't keep goats like that no matter how much we like them with the exception of the first goat we bought who is my 7yo daughter's doe <we've had her almost 4 years>. She can be such a pain in the butt! however, we deal with her, and have to work things around her so she doesn't mess with the does who are scared of her.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh shes not mean to me or even my niece (2 1/2 years) so Im not worry about people. She is just very mean during feeding time and keeps others from eating out of the feeder

I didnt think to much about it until my husband even mentioned it


----------



## Mac's Rainbow (Jul 30, 2012)

janeen128 said:


> A buck apron, what is that? Where do you get one of those? I could use that, it would make my life a whole lot easier;-)


The one I used for a short time I had our shoe repair guy make it for me out of Leather. Here is a thread with some pictures. http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f217/goat-olor-aka-breeding-apron-148854/

Ggg
SKM Mac's Rainbow Nigerians


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Mow Julio tells me they all beat up on flash point. (Sometimes he feeds at night). 

Anyway will know more after I hear back from my friend


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok I called but left messages at the township. Im not expecting a phone call back! They arent good like that.

But I did find this information on their website:



> *  § 151-32 Keeping animals and fowl.  *
> 
> [Amended 9-23-2008 by Ord. No. O-22-2008]
> Subject to the zoning ordinances of the Township of Franklin, no livestock, poultry and other animals traditionally raised for food, fiber, fur, or other production means shall be kept or maintained within the Township of Franklin on any private or public plot of land or other premises without complying with all of the provisions of this article.
> ...


So Im feeling better - sounds promising for the girls. The buck on the other hand...............


----------



## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

i've been ghosting through this thread. glad to hear that you are able to keep your goats within your township. that's good news!

with the buck, you said your neighbours are never there? maybe next time they show up, go over, say hi, make some new friends, and talk to them about you having goats etc etc. and if they have any issues with anything that to speak to you first before going to the township about it. hopefully they'll be reasonable and not make a stink (pun intended....ha) about the buck. if they're never there, i can't see it being a problem.....


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

It's the neighbors on the other side that said something. They are across the field (an acre away). 

But yeah I need to directly say something to them. But as soon as we moved in I had my son and then winter hit and we have had so much snow!


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Then lady did drop off a gift for Liam and I have them a thank you card and wrote my cell number on it.


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Stacy , is this the field you showed me ? The people that complained live across the other side of that field ? I can't see how they could get even smell the buck , thats crazy ! 
Not for nothing , but there could have been road kill or whatever lying close to the neighbors house in the field and it was in between you and them. Just really "stinks" you have to go through all this worry 
Glad you looked into the ordinances and can relax about keeping all your does. Maybe rehoming your buck and having breeding rights is a good thing. It will bring less attention to you and your does.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Yup those neighbors. 

Julio was out chopping wood and he heard the guy say something about "wiping a smelly goats butt" or something like that. I will have to ask him. 

So we don't have a direct complaint. 

Ziva wasn't as mean this morning. But it was -6 so they were all a bit sluggish 

I'm thinking I may just keep Rider till I can talk to the neighbors. 

According to the above listed stuff I found on livestock they will give you 5 days to comply with any issues regarding animals getting out or smell. It wouldn't be ideal but I could make something happen if I had to make him disappear were there to be township officials involved. 

Need to talk to Julio. He wasn't in the mind set I had to sell him but wanted me to know what was said which sent me in a tail spin.


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Im glad its not a direct complaint. Im just thinking ( hoping ) its just a misunderstanding and only part of the conversation was overheard or something. Maybe they know someone who wants a "buck rag" and they were talking about how to do it , lol. You never know !
At least you have plans just in case Rider needs to go into hiding. Its easier to have your own buck on the premises , but at least you can have your goats. And , your goats area was very neat and spotless when I was there , just saying


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Yup just spoke with Danielle's mom I have a place for Rider if he can't stay here!!!!!!


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

^ oh that's great!!  so happy you don't have to sell him any time soon


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Yeah it's awesome. Thankfully I didn't get a deposit from my friend so no "deal" will be broken.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Yah that is a good thing  at least she got to use him some this year  and she had him collected didn't she?


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes she did. Do far she has had triplets from two does and each litter has been 2 does 1 buck  I'm hoping for the same odds


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Oh those are good  does are always nice! Thinking pink for ya  when are your first kids due?


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Flash point is due April 11th then I have sweet pea due in may and Brennan hopefully in June. Didn't want them all spread out but they chose it


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Good news Stacy


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yay!


----------



## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

great news!!!


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Wonderful!


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

thats good news!! glad it worked out for you


----------



## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm so happy for you! Keep us posted!


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Julio said I can keep Rider here as long as we can - and is glad for the back up option. 

YAY 

Im so blessed


----------



## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

Glad you get to keep your buck!! He's such a handsome looking guy! :stars:

I'm actually picking up one of his daughters within the next few weeks.


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Glad it's working out ok for you.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

more good news

my friend who has Ziva's doe kids got the OK from her husband to bring Ziva back permanently. We just have to coordinate when. 

Wow Im going to be down to 4 does!


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

That's great!  everything is working out for ya


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well it does seem so - but have to say voicing my troubles here helped a lot


----------



## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

I find voicing what's eating you always helps feel better. and I'm sure all the good thoughts and prayers from members here helped a lot.

I'm so happy for the great outcome for everything! I knew it would work out!


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

being able to keep Rider makes me feel less stressed about how many does I keep this year from him. I need money to pay for their hay and I have a waiting list for doelings so I really need to be able to sell some.


----------



## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

Glad everything is working out! I'm so happy for you!


Irish Roots Acres 
Nigerian Dwarf Goats


----------

