# Sooooo, How do I diagnose a Hermaphrodite?



## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

We took our little Anna to the Bangor State Fair and showed her in the 4-H show and the ADGA open show. The judge mentioned that she looks like she might be a hermie. She showed pretty well, so we're kinda bummed.

She IS polled and know there's a link between the polled gene and the hermie gene. So How do I diagnose her one way or the other?

She took second place against alot of competition. Grrr!


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

What did he notice that made him wonder if she’s a hermie? Can you post a picture of her rear end? That is usually where the clue is...


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## Miller'sLostGoat (Apr 26, 2018)

Need to see her back end.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I'll post a pic some time in the next 1/2 hour...


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Miller'sLostGoat said:


> Need to see her back end.





Ranger1 said:


> What did he notice that made him wonder if she's a hermie? Can you post a picture of her rear end? That is usually where the clue is...


My daughter said the judge told her that the protruding vulva and her tiny teats are possible indicators. I hadn't really noticed before, but her teats ARE tiny compared to her twin sister's.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can have her ultrasounded to check internally.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No need, he has a twist and no vaginal opening.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

goathiker said:


> No need, he has a twist and no vaginal opening.


 Bummer. I guess we'll have to stop calling her Anna and call her Man-na. Looks like the Groovy Grunder's have a pet goat for sale...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I just noticed he doesn't have hair whorls where his udder attachments would be either.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

You could also manually feel "in there," but that sure looks like a hermaphrodite...


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)




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## Miller'sLostGoat (Apr 26, 2018)

Yeah, I am pretty sure she is. Did you buy her from a breeder? If so I would call them and ask for a credit on another doe.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Miller'sLostGoat said:


> Yeah, I am pretty sure she is. Did you buy her from a breeder? If so I would call them and ask for a credit on another doe.


 No, we bred her. Her sire is a somewhat revered buck in our area and he tends to throw blue-eyed, polled kids. His doelings are in big demand, so I'm extra bummed that she/he's a hermie.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It's just that are odds catching up to you. 
His true doelings are fine, the bucklings are where the funny stuff comes in. 

Polled to horned breeding~ 
50% doelings 
38% bucklings 
12% hermies 

Polled to polled breeding~ 
50% doelings 
25% bucklings 
25% hermies


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

So very sorry. We had a hermie years ago and it was a really nice, fast growing % Boer whom my kids wanted to show in % doe classes. Was registered at 2mo. I want to say we didn't notice anything off until it was around 3-4 months old.


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## 15WildTurkey (Apr 13, 2015)

Man-na!!! Easy and fitting name morph. Sorry groovy. That’s super disappointing


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

That sure is disappointing for you all. That's really too bad.


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## shoafplantation (May 18, 2018)

goathiker said:


> It's just that are odds catching up to you.
> His true doelings are fine, the bucklings are where the funny stuff comes in.
> 
> Polled to horned breeding~
> ...


Where are you getting these stats from?


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## shoafplantation (May 18, 2018)

groovyoldlady said:


> We took our little Anna to the Bangor State Fair and showed her in the 4-H show and the ADGA open show. The judge mentioned that she looks like she might be a hermie. She showed pretty well, so we're kinda bummed.
> 
> She IS polled and know there's a link between the polled gene and the hermie gene. So How do I diagnose her one way or the other?
> 
> ...


It does look to be a hermaphrodite. But Don't buy the hype about polled goats producing hermaphrodites, its pure hype from old flawed studies. Hermaphrodites happen just as randomly from horned goats too. 
Its simple logic. Polled being the dominate trait over horned, if breedings of the dominate gene produced more offspring unable to breed, the species would have eliminated itself many many years ago.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Ah the hype lol 
Those statistics are from a seminar I attended at OSU last spring. 
The mapping of PISRT1 was finished in England in 2000. America had to play catch up but, we got it done thoroughly by 2014.
You can find many modern studies on it. 

Oh, and it isn't as simple as a dominant or even a recessive gene. It's a long non-coding RNA that causes DNA deletion. Basically a genetic disease.


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## shoafplantation (May 18, 2018)

goathiker said:


> Ah the hype lol
> Those statistics are from a seminar I attended at OSU last spring.
> The mapping of PISRT1 was finished in England in 2000. America had to play catch up but, we got it done thoroughly by 2014.
> You can find many modern studies on it.
> ...


So what were the gender stats from this seminar for horned to horned breeding?


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## shoafplantation (May 18, 2018)

goathiker said:


> It's just that are odds catching up to you.
> His true doelings are fine, the bucklings are where the funny stuff comes in.
> 
> Polled to horned breeding~
> ...


Ok, so what are the gender stats from this seminar on horned to horned breeding? How many goats were studied and for how long.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

HoosierShadow said:


> So very sorry. We had a hermie years ago and it was a really nice, fast growing % Boer whom my kids wanted to show in % doe classes. Was registered at 2mo. I want to say we didn't notice anything off until it was around 3-4 months old.


 Sounds about right. He/She is almost 4 months old.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

On More question: Since Man-na doesn't have a male urinary tract, can I assume that UC won't be an issue? I want to know how to inform his/her new owners when I sell him/her.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

This is an interesting subject! Thank you groovy for posting and goathiker for your insight! Now I know what to look for. I always thought that polled goats were "too good to be true." Bummer that you can't breed her.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

Goathiker, I forgot to ask in my previous post, the ones that end up hermies from a breeding with a polled goat, are they typically polled or horned or does that matter?


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

groovyoldlady said:


> On More question: Since Man-na doesn't have a male urinary tract, can I assume that UC won't be an issue? I want to know how to inform his/her new owners when I sell him/her.


@goathiker ???


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes because the plumbing is run to the back, the sharp turns that cause higher risk in males are eliminated. 
She may act bucky though. It's hard to guess to what degree she may be masculinized.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

goathiker said:


> Yes because the plumbing is run to the back, the sharp turns that cause higher risk in males are eliminated.
> She may act bucky though. It's hard to guess to what degree she may be masculinized.


 Thank you! I appreciate your wisdom. (((((Hugs)))))


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

The hermie that we had was from a kiko x doe and Boer buck, from a set of quads - 3 bucks, and a doe - so we thought. He/she was very masculine at 4mo, and acting bucky. He/she was also going to be a really big goat, if I could go back now I would probably have taken it to auction vs. letting a couple of ladies buy it insisting they were 'saving it from being slaughtered.' I warned them about the possibilities by they insisted they were prepared. I lost contact with them so I don't know what the outcome was.


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## Maureen Harmon (Jul 19, 2017)

I’ll drive over to Maine to get her/him!!!


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

So much good info here! I’m sorry, Groovy, that this gorgeous baby is an It instead of a she, but grateful I could learn more about polled genes and hermies.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Maureen Harmon said:


> I'll drive over to Maine to get her/him!!!


 That can be arranged! As a registered doeling I was going to sell her for $350. But as a pet we'll probably sell him for $100.


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## Maureen Harmon (Jul 19, 2017)

Tell me when!!!


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Maureen Harmon said:


> Tell me when!!!


 I'll PM you...


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

groovyoldlady said:


> That can be arranged! As a registered doeling I was going to sell her for $350. But as a pet we'll probably sell him for $100.


If you were about 1500 miles closer, I wouldn't hesitate to buy Man-na.


singinggoatgirl said:


> So much good info here! I'm sorry, Groovy, that this gorgeous baby is an It instead of a she, but grateful I could learn more about polled genes and hermies.


 I have also learned a lot. Thank you and @goathiker.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Who knew hermies could be so popular? Maybe I should try breeding for more of them!

I. am. TOTALLY. Kidding!


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## Maureen Harmon (Jul 19, 2017)

When was she born?


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Maureen Harmon said:


> When was she born?


April 30, 2018. He/she was one of a set of quads. You can see his/her dam and sire in the first entry on this thread. https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/waiting-for-our-groovy-kids.196251/#post-2109503

His/her dam (8 years old; her 5th freshening) developed ketosis and hypocalcemia toward the end and I almost lost her. However, she's recovered to the point that she took first place in the senior doe class at our show this past Friday.

His/Her sire is in such high demand right now that his owner has decided to never let him breed outside her own herd again. He. Is. Stunning!

Our herd tested clean for CL, CAE, and Johnes in 2016.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Well, Anna found a new home. @Maureen Harmon drove all the way out from NY to pick him/her up! We're so thankful to know Anna's going to a loving home that will spoil her/him! Thanks, Maureen!!!!


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I had one born this year too, such a bummer. He died by a few months old though. I think there was more than the plumbing causing issues. His penis was between his teats and mostly a weird nub. His face was also slightly misshapen. His sister was perfectly perfect and normal and lovley.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Dayna said:


> I had one born this year too, such a bummer. He died by a few months old though. I think there was more than the plumbing causing issues. His penis was between his teats and mostly a weird nub. His face was also slightly misshapen. His sister was perfectly perfect and normal and lovley.


I'm sorry you lost him! Fortunately, Anna seems quite robust and healthy.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Yeah, my kid was always poorly from birth. Yours seems very sturdy, clearly, since you got second place!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Im glad (s)he found a good home.


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## Maureen Harmon (Jul 19, 2017)

Anna is chillin’ on the couch with me at the moment
It was a long day of driving!


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## Maureen Harmon (Jul 19, 2017)

Anna


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Several years ago my Lamancha doe was bred to my Nubian buck. Both horned, no history of polled genetics as far back as we could trace. (10 generations). Doe had quads, 3 does, 1 buck. The best of the 4 was a gorgeous paint doeling. Yeah, she was a hermie. Testicles in her udder, looked and acted like a buck in rut. What was supposed to be a vulva was really penile tissue and would swell, turn bright red and get hard when it was excited. Sort of odd looking as it didn't really resemble either vulva or penis. I posted pics on here many years ago. One of her sisters was a free martin, developed twin with the only buck of the 4. The vet had a field day with these 2.

Neither parent had another hermie, but I never bred them together again. I bought a Lamancha buckling that year, so she was bred to him after that first year. The Nubian sire bred my Nubians and the Mancha bred the Mancha does. In 35 years of goat raising, 1 hermie and 1 freemartin is not bad odds.


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