# Need help with corrective hoof trimming



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

I have a doe that has funky hooves. Unfortunately, she was the one that suffered from my learning curve. I've been trying for the past year to make her more upright and take off extra toe, but not making much headway. These photos are of her hind hooves, which are by far worse than the front. I'm baffled how to trim her and fix this, and I'd be grateful for any help.

If I trim off too much at a time, I hit the quick. At first I was concentrating on toes only, as her pasterns are so angled, but now I think I have way too much heel. I was trying to trim her every two weeks, but that didn't seem to be working, so I'm letting her go longer. It's been about 6 weeks and I think that might be too long.









Rear view









Front view of hind hooves









Left hind straight on rear view









Left hind underside









Right hind straight on rear view









Right hind underside









Outside right, inside left









Side view right hind hoof









Outside left, inside right


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

She has way too much toe and needs flattened out. Her hairline should be parallel to the ground. Your not going to fix her pasterns with trimming. She needs a Selinum shot to fix that.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

There is some toe to take off there, but I think the problem is way too much heel. Pictures 3 and 5 (going down) both show the problem. Just about everything that doesn't have hair touching it should be taken off. That's a slight exaggeration, but not by much. If you were to only take off toe on that goat right now, I bet when you are done her toes, even though you just trimmed them, would point into the air and not touch the stand. Everybody thinks in order to get a hoof to look like that diagram of a proper goat hoof that you see. The one where the hoof is pretty much straight up and down, as opposed to a horse etc., think you have to take only toe or you will look like the horse diagram. I used to think that too, but when I was done, the toe would not touch the stand. The heel needs to be taken down clear to the sole. From there, anything that is not "flat", especially the toe, need to be trimmed down. I get pretty aggressive with the toe area with my show goats, but if I don't take that heel down flat, the goat will still rock back and look like they aren't right. And they aren't. I think where people go wrong is they fail to take into consideration the natural angle of the pastern. That straight (almost) up and down natural hoof you see in the diagram parallels the pastern if done right. You have to take heel to do that. What really got me on the right track was using the grinder. If you approach trimming as making things "flat and level" and not letting the diagram mess with your mind, you will improve your trimming. At least at my farm.


----------



## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

I agree too much toe. Any idea on her bloodline? Are they weak through the Pastern? Try Bo-Se first. Is she Saanen? I have found Saanen to be precarious for this issue. 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Tell you what, I've got a Saanen that I'm going to help out with over the next couple weeks. I'll take pics of how I fix him. Saanens are a world of their own with naturally bad hoofs. His look much like your girls right now.


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Goathiker - I am looking forward to this!


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

She is a Saanen (pretty obvious from the color  ). Tenacross, you are absolutely right, when I trimmed only her toes, she didn't have a flat hoof and looked like she was on rockers. A couple of months ago, I started trimming a lot more heel. because the hooves actually look rolled. I believe her pastern angle is related to the poor trims she's had. When I came to goats, I was trimming like I did my horses--big mistake. I need to trim her very soon, but I'm concerned with the rolled hoof. Her hooves look to me like there's too much on the outside and too little on the inside--but I'm not sure if that's an optical illusion.

Goathiker, I wish you lived close by! I'll be looking for your photos. I need all the help I can get with this. If I may ask, please take before and after photos, showing each step if you can. I realize this is a lot to ask, but there's absolutely no one around here who knows how to trim goat hooves--including my horse farrier, who raises sheep.

Saanens definitely have hoof issues, but you know, we've bred it into them. The early imports didn't have the foot problems they have now. Possibly too much inbreeding, and too much culling of Sable Saanen lines, narrowing the genetic pool.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'll do my best. I'll be on my own, so, it will be snip this and take a pic, snip that and take a pic. It will be Monday or Tuesday.


----------



## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

We've actually bred feet and legs out of them. Kind of like the Holstein breed. We worry so much about the craze of milk production sometimes other things slip. Now that the community is wiser and breeding more holistically, we see a stronger animal, tightly put together, with longevity to boot. 


Animals make such personable friends, they pass no criticisms, offer their ears through happiness and sorrows, and yet possess such undying devotion, even whilst they know all our secrets.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That's very true Megan, I have a 13 year old Saanen and a 2 year old Saanen. The difference in the feet and hind leg assembly is amazing. The 2 year old is so much stronger and better put together.


----------



## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm going to follow this thread. Thanks! Goathiker I too am looking forward to your pictures.... A grinder was mentioned. I use a grinder on my horses hoofs. What kind of grinder/disk is used on a goat?


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Casa_la_Palma said:


> I'm going to follow this thread. Thanks! Goathiker I too am looking forward to your pictures.... A grinder was mentioned. I use a grinder on my horses hoofs. What kind of grinder/disk is used on a goat?


This one.
http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DW8306...91325399&sr=1-2&keywords=36+grit+sanding+disc


----------



## Casa_la_Palma (Oct 15, 2013)

Thank You Tenacross! My horse trimming supplies will work then


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Looking forward to seeing progressive pics...I agree...try to get the whole bottom flat. I use a rasp when I am done clipping...


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Ok Jill(Goathiker) hurt her wrist and hasn't been able to get pictures so I told her I would get pictures for her 

So first here is an untrimmed hoof


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

First I trim the outside wall of the hoof


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Then the inside wall


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Then the heel


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

And the toe. So one side is completely done here.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

And rinse lather and repeat 
Outside wall again.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

And the inside wall


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

The toe


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

The heel and done

I hope those help till Jill can get her's up


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

It looks like that hoof was in pretty good shape to begin with, nice and upright. Were you trimming an ND?


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Just wanted to show you this picture so you might not be so scared to get aggressive with reshaping the foot. As you can see from the bit of blood on her toe, she was cut to the quick and then some, from one end of her toe to the other. She didn't limp, she didn't kick or fuss, she was also pregnant at the time. You will NOT hurt them unless you cut to the point that they gush (this was a steady drip, believe it or not-she just wouldn't quit). Some are bigger babies than others. Just follow the advice you've been given and you'll do fine.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

rosawoodsii said:


> It looks like that hoof was in pretty good shape to begin with, nice and upright. Were you trimming an ND?


No, this was one of my LaManchas.. I did get some pics of my other LaMancha I can post too.. All my Nigerians are bred and act like fruit loops so I haven't attempted to take pictures and trim at the same time lol!


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Ok here is my other LaMancha 

Untrimmed


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Outside walls done


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Inside walls


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Toes


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Heels and done


I have a doe that was selenium deficient.. Her feet are what suffered.. They have gotten much better after a few good does of Bo-Se and some good trimming.. Now that she is bred they got a bit worse cause she won't let me touch them.. So after she kids I will start reshaping them.. I will have to try and get pics when I do


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Just so you don't feel bad about your doe's back feet (they're really not bad, and should be an easy fix once you get the hang of it), these feet are from a 6yo doe that a client of mine owns. She was bought in this condition.


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Would love to see corrective trim on that girl


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

Omigosh! They do make Beatrice's feet look good, don't they!

Don't know about an easy fix,though. Trimming anything off her toes brings me to the quick. I really need to know how to deal with the rolled hoof and supination. I suspect I need to take more off the heel, but it seems counter-intuitive. Yet, I've been concentrating on her toes for the past year and it's only slightly better. I made more progress last month when I took off more heel. I've got to straighten the hoof bottom--not just make it even.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm sorry, just as soon as this darned sprained wrist is workable again, I'll get those pictures for you. Right now I don't think I'd be able to close the shears. ):


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I have one after picture, and it's only partially complete. She did indeed continue to walk on her heels, but with the overall condition of all of her feet, I chose the slow and steady method. I will be back out as soon as the weather is good and I will get updated pictures. She ought to be walking much better by now.

This is just another example while I wait for the after shot to upload. Just a note-just because I get paid for this doesn't mean I'm not open to tips and critiques. Anything that results in a better job is appreciated.


After shot of the first doe.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I have a doe that needs her feet done (I'll admit it, I slack when it comes to her because she's not too easy to catch) so I'll see what I can do in the next few days. At the moment, it would be like a corrective trim again, I only do her feet regularly when she's fresh, other than that, I think she gets a trim once a month or so.


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

These girls were likely left for 6 months or longer. I don't consider it a corrective trim until the toe is warped. Before that it's just a moderate or standard trim.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

A few tips ^^ try soaking the foot in some hot soapy water for a bit to soften the hoof. 
Trim the inside wall a bit shorter than the outside wall
A rasp is your best friend when it comes to leveling, taking small increments off, holding the correction without trimming so often. And with a rasp, you can see the blood before you nic it and make the hoof bleed.
When I start on hooves like the picture above, I don't even touch the heel the first several trims. You want it to be like a high heel shoe, in a sense. You want the heel higher than the toe to tighten the tendons up again and so they stop rolling back onto the heel with the point of the toe up in the air. After they being walking better, I take small increments off the heel until I have the finished product of a correct hoof.


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

goathiker said:


> I'm sorry, just as soon as this darned sprained wrist is workable again, I'll get those pictures for you. Right now I don't think I'd be able to close the shears. ):


NP, Goathiker. I know how frustrating a sprain can be. I'm going to trim her a bit this week, weather permitting. When it's too cold, her hooves are like concrete, so I like to wait for a slight thaw when her hooves pick up some moisture.


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I've trimmed them 3 times in the last year (he's a cop with a busy schedule) without touching the heel once (save for snipping off that annoying ridge a lot of them get). Most of them were about to the point of walking on their dewclaws they've been left like this for so long (age is also a factor, many are well over 5). The inside wall is a tad shorter, at least on a few of them, though some had the excess growth all on the outside while the inside was already too short to touch.

A lot of these girls are half wild pasture kept does with minimal contact, and I'll be the first to admit that I've snipped a toe too short from a badly timed kick or yank. If I'm remembering correctly, the blade toed doe was one of those cases, as she was only bleeding on the very tip. Of course, if I make them bleed, I leave the rasp for the next trip, as I can only find the horse sized rasps and I can't imagine that would feel good on an already tender foot.

Just for reference, the white powder is Blood Stop powder. Many of these girls have bruises and blood pockets and I keep the stuff that spills on the stand so they can stop bleeding faster without me holding the foot. This particular client has about 8 does and 3 bucks, plus a couple weanlings to yearlings that I have to do in an afternoon, and time is of the essence. I usually get all of them done in 3 hours and I do have a few examples of some that came out REALLY nice with that kind of timeframe.


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

TheMixedBag, I'd have been freaking if I saw that much blood! Maybe I shouldn't worry so much. ;D I'm chuckling, too, on Little-Bits-N-Pieces comment about regular trimming. I'd think every month is pretty regular! I know people who trim twice a year and call it good.

I do use a rasp with my goats. It's a small hand rasp that I get from Hoegger's, much easier to use than the horse rasp I had before that. 

How do you go about soaking a goat's hoof? I've tried that and they just keep stepping out of the water, which I had in a shallow container on the stanchion while they munched.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I put a glove on and use the horse grasps on my does. Works like a charm and get a it done faster.
Wrapping a hoof like that will help make her stand more on the whole hoof instead of the heel too.

I have a doe with front feet like the pictures you posted (bought like that). I'm going to start corrective trimming soon, and I'm going to see how long it takes to get a reasonable hoof!  in fact, I'll take before and after pics of her as I go, and when I'm done I'll post them all.


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

My method was soaking a rag, wrapping the foot, putting a ziplock bag over it and tying/taping it down. These girls have relatively soft feet, so I don't really need to soak them. My black blade clippers will get through most any foot, and whatever they don't, horse nippers finish.

Almost forgot-my kiko is a twice a year trimmer. I did him in November, he's still flat as a pancake with only about a half inch of thin, fragile overgrowth that he can knock off himself. I keep him untrimmed so I can use him as a "teaching" goat.

BTW, the massive pool of blood is from a previous doe who had a fresh bruise. She would. Not. Stop. Bleeding. I wound up putting that foot in a bucket of Blood Stop and left her in it while I finished her other 3 feet. She hopped right off the stand and trotted out to the pasture like she hadn't just bled like a stuck pig...


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

rosawoodsii said:


> TheMixedBag, I'd have been freaking if I saw that much blood! Maybe I shouldn't worry so much. ;D I'm chuckling, too, on Little-Bits-N-Pieces comment about regular trimming. I'd think every month is pretty regular! I know people who trim twice a year and call it good.
> 
> I do use a rasp with my goats. It's a small hand rasp that I get from Hoegger's, much easier to use than the horse rasp I had before that.
> 
> How do you go about soaking a goat's hoof? I've tried that and they just keep stepping out of the water, which I had in a shallow container on the stanchion while they munched.


Hehe, I normally trim every week or every two weeks.

I use a 6qt pail and I fill it with about 2qts of pretty warm water, and squirt some betadine in the water and swish it around. I place their foot in while they eat grain. They normally keep their foot in the bucket until the grain runs out.  but I'd hold the bucket just in case the try to tip it


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

And I know people who think in crazy for trimming every month :lol: 

Though in the winter I let it go longer cause it cold and my preggy girls fight soo much  and the boys are icky lol!


----------



## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

I am going to follow this thread too. Hope to see some more pics of corrected hooves. I have such difficulty getting a nice flat smooth surface, esp on my bigger girls. Does a rasp help with that?


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

loggyacreslivestock said:


> I am going to follow this thread too. Hope to see some more pics of corrected hooves. I have such difficulty getting a nice flat smooth surface, esp on my bigger girls. Does a rasp help with that?


I think so. I use a rasp after every trimming to get the whole heel and toes even...I get the majority with the trimmers but the rasp does a nice "clean up" job.


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I put a glove on and use the horse grasps on my does. Works like a charm and get a it done faster.
> Wrapping a hoof like that will help make her stand more on the whole hoof instead of the heel too.
> 
> I have a doe with front feet like the pictures you posted (bought like that). I'm going to start corrective trimming soon, and I'm going to see how long it takes to get a reasonable hoof!  in fact, I'll take before and after pics of her as I go, and when I'm done I'll post them all.


Horse grasps? Do you mean horse rasps? I'm ot sure what you're referring to when you talk about "wrapping a hoof".

I'd definitely like to see the pics. Thanks.


----------



## peggy (Aug 11, 2010)

This is all very interesting but my problem is trimming the feet so they are not rocking??? I trim regularly and the foot looks level when I am holding it up to trim but when I set it back on the ground it looks to have a rocking chair look to it.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

rosawoodsii said:


> Horse grasps? Do you mean horse rasps? I'm ot sure what you're referring to when you talk about "wrapping a hoof".
> 
> I'd definitely like to see the pics. Thanks.


:doh: Yep, I did indeed mean a rasp (I was on my kindle, darn autocorrect!)

As far as wrapping the hoof, you know how you'd wrap one for a split? It's basically like that, you pick the foot up, position the toes how they should be, then you take some vetwrap and wrap that around the toes to hold the position a bit better. If the heel needs to come up higher, put a small piece of cardboard under the heel and wrap that in as well, try to leave the point of the toe bare so it has the chance to wear down. Check it a few times a day, and rewrap it every other day with new wrap.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

peggy said:


> This is all very interesting but my problem is trimming the feet so they are not rocking??? I trim regularly and the foot looks level when I am holding it up to trim but when I set it back on the ground it looks to have a rocking chair look to it.


You definitely need a rasp/file to level them out then. They are the best invention ever as far as hoof care goes! If you still get a rocking effect after a good file, it's probably just the soles that need to wear down a bit.
Do they still seem like that a few days after a trim?


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

The sole is my prob ..., impossible to cut! And toe too long  I guess I just gotta buck up and take more off ...


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Trim and file until you are near blood, and that doesn't just apply to the toe. When you see pink, or the blood, stop, and pick up where you left off next week (or in two weeks). Some people use a hoof knife or a box cutter to get the sole level when the rasp won't take it off. Word of caution though, wear a glove!!


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I use a sure form wood planer with a medium blade.


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Goat hiker- ok hate to be a dolt but can u post a pic of your plainer? If I see it I will remember it
Btw how's the wrist today any better ?


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Doing a little better. Bedding everyone down before the storm didn't help though. Thanks for asking.

The nice thing about the planer is when it gets dull you just change the blade.
http://www.stanleytools.com/default...1-399&SDesc=6&#34;+Surform&#174;+Pocket+Plane


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Yeah we were planning for weather today too ... But pretty much dialed in from last snow Hope it misses us both! Thank for the link

Which one? The pocket planer or the long one?


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The pocket planer is what I use.


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Trim and file until you are near blood, and that doesn't just apply to the toe. When you see pink, or the blood, stop, and pick up where you left off next week (or in two weeks). Some people use a hoof knife or a box cutter to get the sole level when the rasp won't take it off. Word of caution though, wear a glove!!


My sister is a farrier andwhen she was visiting introduced me to hoof knives. It makes the job so much easier, But cut AWAY from yourself!

I actually had to buy two hoof knives. The first I bought said "right handed", so I bought it ad the edge is on the left side. Had to buy another so I could trim away from myself. No way to I want to slip with a knife heading toward me. So..buyer beware.


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> :doh:
> As far as wrapping the hoof, you know how you'd wrap one for a split? It's basically like that, you pick the foot up, position the toes how they should be, then you take some vetwrap and wrap that around the toes to hold the position a bit better. If the heel needs to come up higher, put a small piece of cardboard under the heel and wrap that in as well, try to leave the point of the toe bare so it has the chance to wear down. Check it a few times a day, and rewrap it every other day with new wrap.


I've never had to deal with a split hoof, thank goodness, at least, not on my goats. Okay, so you're not talking about wrapping a hoof while trimming, but to bring it back into shape. In the case of my doe, it seems like she has plenty of heell, but too much toe, so I assume I wouldn't elevate the heel at all, just make sure the toe is exposed. Is that right?


----------



## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm going to jump in here 

I have a Saanen doe with hooves similar to yours, not as bad, but they would be if I didn't trim them often. The biggest thing I see with your doe is she needs more trimmed off _between_ the toes. All that junk between the toes is pushing them apart, it can also cause them to have a rocking appearance to the hoof. I had an Alpine with very flat rear hooves, if I didn't trim enough off between the toes she would rock back. On the does left hind hoof, if you trim the _inside_ wall of the _outside_ toe shorter than the outside wall that will help bring her toe back upright. Looks like she needs the same treatment on the other toe. To bring the toes back together, once you get all the hoof out from between the toes if you trim the _outside_ wall of both toes a hair shorter than the inside wall that will help bring the toes back together. In her case I think they will come fairly easy once you get the heel out of the road. Since she has toes wanting to roll, I would fix those first before trying to bring the toes together. She also has a ton of heel that needs to come off. A lot of times the hoof will give the impression of having no heel and all toe, but if you look at it, when the heel is slanted towards the toes and not running straight down from the pastern there is too much heel. (Think underrun heels in horses). You can really see this in the rear view of the left hind on the outside toe. See how much bigger that side is than the other? All that heel needs to come back so that when the heel grows it will grow _down_ and not _under_. If you stand your doe's legs upright you will see that she really doesn't have that much toe, because he pasterns are broken down it gives the impression of having too much toe because the hoof is shoved in front of her.

I just trimmed my doe not too long ago, but I'll look at her in the morning and see if she has any that can come off. If she does, I'll trim it and take pictures of it.


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

Thank you. That's a great explanation and it does fall right in with what I was starting to suspect. I've often trimmed just the outside, because the inside "didn't seem to need it". (I was flying by the seat of my pants, can you tell?) Over time, the inside got more and more obvious but I wasn't sure what was happening. I was trying to clip away some of the excess between the toes, but never realized the real problem was that I hadn't been trimming the wall. I think the heel just got so overgrown that it covered everything and the foot became more and more misshapen. It wasn't until I was studying her hooves from the back that I realized how much heel she had.

Question: I think her pasterns are broken down because of the slow but steady decline in the hoof shape. Is there any chance they'll recover?


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

She needs selenium for weak pasterns...but correct trimming will make her feel better walking!


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

She gets 200 mcg per day of Selenium in her feed. Her pastern problem is, I think, a result of the poor angles that I was trimming. I trimmed like she was a horse for the first 2 years, and I've been trying to correct it ever since.


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

If selenium doesn't help (BoSe ought to work), then time and patience is most likely going to be the ticket. However, sometimes that pastern just isn't going to bounce back. Beyond medicating and wrapping and rigging the hoof and pastern, keep the hooves trimmed as best as you can so as to prevent any unneeded strain on the pastern.

I've often wondered if metal shoes (like for horses) wouldn't help with a lot of these guys, especially the ones who have been left long enough to cause damage.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:


> I have one after picture, and it's only partially complete. She did indeed continue to walk on her heels, but with the overall condition of all of her feet, I chose the slow and steady method. I will be back out as soon as the weather is good and I will get updated pictures. She ought to be walking much better by now.
> 
> This is just another example while I wait for the after shot to upload. Just a note-just because I get paid for this doesn't mean I'm not open to tips and critiques. Anything that results in a better job is appreciated.
> 
> ...


See how the toe is not touching the ground? This goat needs way more heel taken off.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Here are some pictures of a recent trim I did on my worst footed Boer doe that went too long between trims. You can see what a mess she is in the first picture. The second picture is after I used the trimming shears on her. The third picture is after I used the grinder on her. Notice how I was getting too close on that outside hoof. That's because her outside hoof grows faster and causes more problems than the inside. It starts to "roll over". Most of that horrible first picture is a result of that outside hoof. If I make things level with the grinder, which for this doe means taking off *a lot* of heel, you get the fourth picture. Not perfect, but this doe no longer appears to have cull pasterns. Bad, but not as bad. If I do her again in a month, I could even walk her in to the show ring and not fear the judge making fun of her.


----------



## cowgirlnit4christ (Feb 6, 2014)

Hi all, I'm an Equine Barefoot Specialist here, working with holistic methods to help horses achieve the best foot possible, and I do quite a bit of rehabilitative work. So when my older doe started to get foundered-looking hooves, and was a bit tender on the frozen ground, walking like a soldier (throwing her front legs way out in front when she walked), I knew it was time to apply my equine knowledge to goats. With horses, through experience, the more invasive of a trim you do, the less the hoof will work with you and change its growth pattern. In essence, invasively trimming will cause the hoof to go into protection mode, sometimes OVERgrowing what we just took off in the last trim, most commonly seen in the heel area because of a tender or diseased frog. When left alone and simply balanced and then left to have the horse's movement do the work, we see dramatic, positive changes within four weeks. A heel first landing is IMPERATIVE. Now I know, horse's and goats have some differing anatomy points...but essentially the same bone structure. My point? I tried my horse techniques on my goat. Here's what I got. Before photos are on the left, after photos are on the right. I'm excited to see what happens next! The trim was yesterday, and already her profile has corrected itself even MORE on a few of her capsules! (one side of the split...not sure what goat terminology I would use for it..so defaulting to equine  ) Others, we have a little ways to go yet, but they're still looking much more correct.


----------



## cowgirlnit4christ (Feb 6, 2014)

I have more photos too if anyone's interested, but I didn't want to clog up the forum


----------



## Everfree (Nov 15, 2013)

I'd like to see the bottom and side, if you have those photos. Heel looks very nice.


Everfree Farm
Kiko and Nubian


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

This is great. It's like attending a jam session on hoof trimming. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm finding this all very informative. I don't mind seeing more photos.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

As soon as it stops raining I'll go trim that doe that needs some massive corrective trimming, she almost needs new feet!


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I'll just post the best and worst of my library. Tenacross, thank you for the tip. As I said before, I've been avoiding trimming their heels, just trying to get the excess off and allow them to get used to walking on smaller, less hazardous feet, but the next trim is all about getting them to a perfect shape, including shortening the heel, flattening the inner toe and smoothing out any curled bits, which several of them had toe tips that were starting to curl back into themselves.

Short yearling (maybe 14 months) doe, first ever trim. After shot, no before shot.


2yo before shot, we were worried about hoof rot with that wall starting to come off. No indications of rot or infection. No after shot.


7 month old doe, first trim, pre-rasping (hence the uneven toes that don't quite touch the ground). I wanted to take the shot before she got fidgety, she was already starting to pitch a fit.


Other side of 7 month old doe.


Another angle of the doe from a few pages back (should be easy to recognize). Before shot.


Same doe, opposite foot.


Another angle after being partially done.


A good example of too much everything. Again, her heels are my next target.


Same feet, top view.


Too much heel.


Twisted toe. I hate fixing these with a burning passion, I really do. No after shot, unfortunately.


----------



## Carmen_SanDiego (Sep 13, 2013)

I'm running home to trim some hooves. I needed this too. I worry about trimming the heel but I guess it needs to be done.

onder:


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Love this! Keep info coming!


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

TheMixedBag, you have some tough ones to work with there. I feel your pain. You are very close to perfect on some of these, but that toe will tell the tail. They should be able to stand flat and you can usually get there even in one trimming. You might not have that ideal straight up and down look like the diagrams after one trim, but I feel standing flat is more important to start out with. When that toe is pointing up, if you take more heel, it will bring it down. If you hit blood on the toe, you took "plenty". I very seldom hit blood grinding off heel. I've noticed in my herd front feet and back feet are a little different. Usually the toes on the back feet over grow faster and don't need as much heel taken off to get to level. With the front feet, I can't get to level without taking some heel. Some goats are way worse than others. But these does that get deformed looking like you and I have... the problem in front is they grow an excess of heel and they "roll over" and or "rock back". You can give them all the BoSe you want, but unless you can get them flat, it won't matter. With some goats that might even mean you take a lot of heel off one hoof and very little off the other. The "pair" needs to be level.


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Trust me, I agree. These aren't even the worst cases, these are just the ones that I could get pictures of. I was supposed to come out in November and trim them up again, it will be my 4th attempt at these guys. They've had a year now to get used to walking on normal length feet, I'll be taking off EVERYTHING on this next trim, especially the heel. I will be pushing every bit to the quick. I just didn't feel comfortable taking off everything at once, not with how long they have been walking on those feet. All of them were pregnant when I trimmed them, and everyone was in agreement that the excess was enough, perfection could wait until after any risk was gone. If they were my goats and it was my money at risk, I would have pushed it the first time, but being new to this and trying to get good relationships with clients, letting the goats get used to it and going slowly seemed the best route. I will be suggesting selenium on my next visit, as they will need it.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:


> Trust me, I agree. These aren't even the worst cases, these are just the ones that I could get pictures of. .


I highly recommend you try a grinder. It will take the soft excess heel down flat and level with the sole and wall. You really don't even have to get aggressive with it. If I wasn't trying to get down past the "icky pockets" that result from this wet ground we have, I'd never even "pink" them. I think it's way safer for the goat than a hoof knife. I've never injured badly a goat with the grinder. It made a much better goat hoof trimmer out of me. Make sure you have a heavy leather glove on your hand holding the foot though. The other tool I always use, besides the normal hoof shears, is a dremmel tool with a sanding roller. I use this to file down anything that will hold dirt and mud. Especially those flappy things on the inside between the two hooves. I've had way less "suddenly limping goats" since I started doing this.


----------



## cowgirlnit4christ (Feb 6, 2014)

Everfree said:


> I'd like to see the bottom and side, if you have those photos. Heel looks very nice.
> 
> Everfree Farm
> Kiko and Nubian


I will get some for you as soon as I can stand this deep-freeze weather long enough to get out there  i took a before photo but havent gotten the afters yet because my fingers were numb after the trim!

Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

This thread is great.. I plan on fixing my does hooves after she kids.. They are not horrible but need more toe taken off from what I can tell in these pics. I wanna get my boyfriend to build a collapsible stanchion for my shed so it's easier for me to do.


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

So any special grinder ? I have an oscillating one o got for christmas


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

Darlaj, there's a photo earlier in the thread on what someone uses.


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Ok so here are a few pics on my does hooves .... The side view is dark sorry ... Question is is her hoof too long and in the right shape the other is pic of toes from front ... The splayed toes makes me crazy what am I doing wrong? I don't think they were that way when we got her how can I fix this u can see in the first pic that her inside toe is quite a bit further forward? Help


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Dang it forgot to post pics Jeeze Louise



















Don't look at back feet in 2 pic she is bred and cranky only holds still for two at a time


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

On her, the inside toes need worked down until they are about an 1/16th of an inch shorter then the outside toes. She has Nubian feet...


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

goathiker said:


> On her, the inside toes need worked down until they are about an 1/16th of an inch shorter then the outside toes. She has Nubian feet...


??Nubian feet?


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Are they short enough? And why is it inside toe so much further forward?


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The inside toe being further forward is a Nubian trait. The outside toes are short enough, the inside toes need taken down more. Be really careful to keep them even as you shorten them. Once they are short enough the toes will quit spreading so much.


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

She is my alpine doe... I just can't remember if they were always like that I took her inside toe as short as I could get it today ... It was very close to pink with a soft spot in middle over the real pink area.... While I was looking at her foot and trying to figure out the mechanics of it after I was done it was obvious that there was more weight on the inside toe ... So what u say makes a lot of sense. So if the inside toe is as short as I can get it did I take too much off the outside? This may sound crazy but before I started trimming her today I drew a line parallel to coronary ban on her hoof with a sharpie about 1/4 inch above where I wanted her trimmed to it worked really well I usually always leave too much toe and she looks week in pasterns but today I think I have the right angle


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'll have to go look at my Alpine to see if she has feet like that. I haven't owned many of them, they are harder to keep in a fence then most other breeds.


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Yep


----------



## cheyenne (Aug 21, 2011)

I swear, since I joined this forum it's been like going to 'goat college'!!!!! Thank you all for sharing your knowledge!!!!


----------



## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

I know what u mean


----------



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

goathiker said:


> The inside toe being further forward is a Nubian trait. The outside toes are short enough, the inside toes need taken down more. Be really careful to keep them even as you shorten them. Once they are short enough the toes will quit spreading so much.


Ok, lol...now I'll have to look at my goats feet


----------



## crownofjules (Dec 31, 2013)

I apologize for seeming too lazy to read through the posts ... can someone suggest a hoof trimmer brand that WORKS? Maybe a quick link or photo of what to look for? I bought some $15 Fiskars trimmers but I still cannot cut but little teeny bits or can't crimp them closed at all! 
I'm not a total wuss - hand-strength-wise LOL! ... and I have mostly Pygmys.. youth.. toes to trim. Is it my super-arid desert climate? I can barely manage a wall trim before my hand is tired and my goat ticked off! :veryangry: The hoof base (frog) and heel have to stay - I just can't manage a good angle to nip much of anything away.


----------



## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

The inside toe is bigger because it isn't as short as the other toe. You can do this to any goat, no matter the breed just by not trimming short enough. I usually do it to all of mine then have to trim the inside one shorter, for some reason I always get that outside toe trimmed down more to start with. My Nubians do tend to want to be that way more and I had one that had a super huge inside toe, I usually had to trim it in between trims to keep it smaller.

You can help bring her toes back together by making the outside wall on each toe slightly shorter than the inside wall of each toe. This will make them rock just slightly to the outside and should help bring them together. You don't want to make them too much shorter than the inside or you can cause the hoof to roll to the outside and that would make the goat's hooves hurt. Also make sure you trim any excess heel off that is between the toes. Splayed toes is genetic and Alpines are very bad at having splayed toes. When breeding her, try to find a buck who has good tight toes to try and fix this in her kids.


----------



## IvyMayPygmyGoats (Jan 24, 2014)

Oh? One of my Pygmies has similar feet, i was told that they just grow fast and to file them as well as trim them (I just trimmed off the excess bits before) she has loads of solid ground to wear them down on and they don't slow her down at all.. Is this similar? if so, can you de'code all you've just said for me?


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Ok, I finally got around to trimming some feet today! I didn't take a bunch of pictures like I had planned, but you get the jist of it. It was more work than I wanted to put in with the pictures, because I'm lazy and didn't want to take the gloves off a million times to take the pics with my phone. 

And I actually couldn't even find my trimmers, so I trimmed her feet with sheep shears :lol: Still tons more to fix, but at least they resemble hooves now! Few more trims and they should be ok looking!


----------



## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

what do you think about these? I trimmed them yesterday, didn't wanna stress her out too much as she's due in a little over a month. I will try to get better pics of her feet flat


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Looks good  you could probably take a smidgen off her heels, and a teeny bit off the very tip of the toe. Yes, definitely need some pics of here standing.


----------



## Artdrake (Feb 21, 2013)

All these pics are awesome! I just trimmed today, but feel like I need to do more. I have one doe with quads that is really low on her pasterns. I drew a line with a white crayon on her hoof even with her hairline as a guide when I turn them upside down. That worked well! I gave her some selenium tonight. Thanks everyone for sharing all the info, it's great! Can this thread be saved as a permanent feature? It's very popular


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

If a goat toes out, is there a way to correct that with hoof trimming? If so, how?


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

If it's a very bad toe out, it's a conformation flaw, you can only slightly fix it by trimming the inner wall shorter, but it's a very slight difference.


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

I'll try to get photos tomorrow. Slight toe out, and I'm wondering if it's my trimming that's causing it.


----------



## LuvmyGoaties (Mar 9, 2010)

Love this thread. My problem is I feel so uncoordinated when I am trimming - like I can't get a good angle to make the trims with the shears. I can get the toes and the walls that hang over but I can't figure out how to get a good angle to get the heals or sole. I have tried without success to use a rasp - again, I can't figure out how to hold the hoof and rasp without rasping my skin off too. I use a 4.5 inch grinder like what was posted on here for my horses hooves but I think it would be too big for my mini LaMancha hooves. 

Does anyone here feel like posting a video of them trimming with a grinder or a rasp? 

Also, has anyone here ever tried using a Dremel to grind goats hooves?


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

LuvmyGoaties said:


> I have tried without success to use a rasp - again, I can't figure out how to hold the hoof and rasp without rasping my skin off too. I use a 4.5 inch grinder like what was posted on here for my horses hooves but I think it would be too big for my mini LaMancha hooves.
> 
> Also, has anyone here ever tried using a Dremel to grind goats hooves?


The rasp I've found most useful is a hoof plane that is held in the palm of the hand, like this one: When I rasp, I go from back to front of the hoof (I'm facing the goat's hind end), rather than side to side--and I've learned to always wear gloves.

WRT a Dremel, I've played with the idea of using one, but it seems to me that it would be far too easy to take off some here and some there and never get it even, because it's such a small tool.


----------



## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

I love using the dremel, for me it works great. I trim what I can with the clippers then get the finish with the dremel. It takes longer than I like but you can really fine tune the hoof with it. Agree with the gloves though. I have lost a bit of skin now and then...


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

So you're not using it to get the hoof completely flat then, just tweak here and there?


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Here's one for you, and a perfect chance to critique my horse nipper skills! (I'm not thrilled with this job, but his feet are so hard that you can't even scratch them with standard clippers).

From the very first cut into his foot, the entire sole was nothing but deep red bruising. He had been showing signs of lameness the past few weeks, kneeling down to eat hay, taking short, choppy strides wherever he walked and going down on his knees when being led any kind of distance. I knew his toes were too long, but I didn't think it could cause issues like that. He's now got an oversized inner toe, but the bruising is gone as well as most of his lameness issues (we think age and laminitis may be contributing as well). He could easily go down a bit more, but I hit the quick and figured he'd be better off with the bruising gone and we could worry about fixing it further when we found out if he's going to be here long-term or not.


----------



## rosawoodsii (Feb 20, 2013)

You did that with hoof nippers? I think you have far more skill than I do! (But that was a given anyway.  )


----------



## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

This truly is a great thread. Needs to be a sticky!


----------



## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

loggyacreslivestock said:


> This truly is a great thread. Needs to be a sticky!


I agree!


----------

