# Emergency opinions needed



## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

OK everyone, in need of other opinions and ideas in case I've missed something. 

2 week old doe kid found in barn this morning screaming and unable to get up. She was in the heated kid box flopping around. Got her out and she really wobbly and almost ceasure like movements. Her head was slightly pulled back. I helped her up and got her balance then she stumbled around like she was drunk and lost. Crying the whole while. She's been shaking her head a lot and her tail wiggles non stop. 

First thought was to treat for polio and listeria. Gave thiamin, Dex, and penn. After an hour with no change and her obviously being in pain, I drenched her with mineral oil and baking soda. Also gave her an innima (sp) just in case and her bowels seemed empty. Nothing at all came out except the warm water I put in. Obviously her tummy is not working. Gave 2nd dose of thiamin 30 minutes ago. No changes. 

Any other thoughts, treatments, ideas?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Temp? CDT status?


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Temp is normal. Doe was given cdt vaccine 30 days prior to kidding. Kid was vaccinated with cdt, bose, and disbudded 2 days ago.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

FKS? Are her back legs dragging?


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm not sure what you are dealing with but I hope someone will be able to help you out.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Poor baby ! Prayers sent ! Call the vet , could be possible reaction to the disbudding ?


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

nancy d said:


> FKS? Are her back legs dragging?


No. She is able to walk and seems strong, just lacking coordination. Her temp is holding steady at 102.8. I messaged her belly and she burped up yellow mucus like stuff that smelled rotten. She freaked when it came up too, like it hurt or choked her for a moment. Weird. ......


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Give her activated charcoal in case she nibble something bad. The yellow mess has me worried. 

I'd also give her some type of probios. Could she have been injured by another goat? 

This is a weird one for sure.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Polio would be my thought as well, with digestive problems and neurological symptoms. Takes a little while for the B to absorb but you should see improvement by morning. The charcoal and Probios won't hurt, but make sure you give them a ways apart (preferably charcoal first) or the Probios will be negated.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

A member here had issues with a few goats last season. It appeared to be polio or listeriosis. After a few died, she sent one for autopsy......turned out to be swelling in the brain from the disbudding.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Banamine would be a good idea in case. Listeriosis has severe brain swelling (doubt that's what it is but better safe than sorry). It's a good idea incase sassykat is onto something with disbudding. Not likely but possible... anything is possible with goats!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

How is the baby doing ?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Just read through this thread. How is she doing? I don't have anymore advice to give except the ones already given.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

No improvement tonight. She did finally pass a small amount of feces, soft yellow baby poo. It seems to feel good to her when I massage her belly. 

I've given 2 doses of probios today. Don't have any charcoal on hand but it's a good idea. If need be, I'll pick up some tomorrow. 

Thought about the brain swelling from disbudding, but she does not seem tender at all and there is no external swelling.

I guess I'll keep doing what I can and pray for a good outcome. :/ For those of you who have followed my kidding threads, this is the ugly duckling doe.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Might try a finger full of soda, it could help settle her stomach. I did have one go into spasms from disbudding but, you could feel the heat from his head.


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

Wanted to pass this on. Had a kid hunched and acting pained the next morning after disbudding -called the vet and he said use ice packs on him. We now use cold cloths after all disbudding and have never seen a sign of them having a reaction since. Helps prevent any swelling. I actually put cold cloths on their heads during the disbudding also -between touch ups.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would still give Banamine. I had a year where almost all my kids reacted in some way after disbudding. Now I give a shot of Banamine 30 minutes prior and haven't seen any problems since.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> I would still give Banamine. I had a year where almost all my kids reacted in some way after disbudding. Now I give a shot of Banamine 30 minutes prior and haven't seen any problems since.


I also give all kids banamine before disbudding. This doe did not have any signs of having an issue with the procedure. Her issue was definatly her stomach shutting down for some reason.

Unfortunately she lost the battle late last night.  Thinking about doing an autopsy to see if the reason can be determined. Just don't want any others to get sick.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would give Banamine...she may have brain swelling from disbudding...


Oh very sorry..just read you lost her...: ( ...I agree with Karen..sounds more of a brain swelling then stomach issue...Im very sorry for your loss


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry you lost her. It never ceases to amaze me how fast they can go down from seemingly perfectly healthy.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm sorry you lost her. I would have the autopsy done. I am willing to bet it was from the disbudding.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm sorry she didn't make it


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

So sorry you lost her :hug:


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Awe so sorry you lost her;(


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks. I was giving her Dex which would have helped any swelling. Is been a bad 24 hours. When I fed this morning I found a buck kid dead in the same pen. He was vaccinated and disbudded the same time as the doe. Not sure if it's a coincidence. He was perfectly fine at 11:00 last night. I kind of think one of the mama goats is injuring the other kids. Just not sure which one. I heard a kid scream as it was slammed up against the wall this morning during feeding. :/ 

Oh goodness. ....I'm going to have to find a way to separate them all. Wish my new barn was done so I had more space!


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm sorry you've lost another kid. Some of my does can be really mean to kids that aren't theirs. Maybe separating will help. Good luck!


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I am so sorry you lost her. :GAAH:


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

So sorry you lost another kid.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Another cause of seizures et al can be CAE. While it may not have been your babies problem, it could be a possibility in others who might read this article.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

very sorry....that is hard to loose one..but two?? a necropsy might offer answers as to what killed them...with two down..I think I would have it done...


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Geez that sucks sorry you lost another


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Oh no , I'm so sorry :hug:


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks for all the hugs. I vaccinated and disbudded 6 more kids today. Praying that none of them have any issues! Worried and will continue worrying until I find out what happened to the 2 that died.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What are you vaccinating with? Is it a brand new bottle? I wonder if it somehow got contaminated.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Cdt and BoSe. It is a new bottle of cdt. I thought about that since the 2 that died where 2 of the 3 vaccinated last and the 1st ones I've used the new bottle on.


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## Zzpygmies (Oct 31, 2014)

We had a 4 week old doe with the same symptoms.

I heard her screaming at 10 pm and went to check on the goats.. She was curled up under a log the babies like to sleep under( it was summer and too warm for them to sleep in the barns and shelters) she was flopping and very uncoordinated, and kept throwing her head back over her back..

I rushed her to vet and she died about an hour later.. Autopsy showed blunt force trauma. The vet said it looked like one of the other does broke her back and the shock of it all was what made her go down hill so fast.

I'm sorry for your loss, but if your suspecting an adult doe or wether, you might want to section off all your mom and kid pairs.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Can be a bad reaction to the vaccine even without contamination.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

A fatal reaction to a vaccine would be very unlikely but not impossible. Two fatal reactions to a vaccine would be highly improbable. Much more likely the bottle was contaminated. CD/T vaccines are not multi dose. Unused portions should be discarded 24 hours after the seal is first punctured. That being said, I think it's much more likely an aggressive doe rammed them.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

What brand were you using ? Just curious…
I think if it was a fatal reaction to the vaccine , you would've seen more signs things weren't well…but i could be wrong. The way i see it , when you think it is highly unlikely , think again. I like to give vaccines early in the day so i can keep an eye on them , just in case , maybe I'm over protective , but thats just me. I do this with the puppies and the goats.
You just never know , they are all individuals and can have different reactions. So sad to have lost the babies 
Im very curious to know what the necropsy determines.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

3rd baby down! Oh my gosh! This is terrible! I've treated her with 2 high doses of penn, thiamine, and high doses of dex. It's been 6 hours and she has greatly improved. Went from screaming with seizures, and stumbling around crying to now walking normal standing humped up with diarrhea. I am seeing the diarrhea as a good sign. Her tummy is still working and will hopefully clean out whatever is making her sick. 
I'm suspicious of the hay I'm feeding. We put up our own hay and have a new field of grass alfalfa blend. We put up big half ton bales. Most bales are about 50/50 blend, but the bale I just opened, the night before this all started is 100% alfalfa. I'm thinking the kids are gorging themselves on the alfalfa leaf. ???


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Oh no !!!! I would stop feeding them everything you have been till you narrow it down . Might mean getting new stuff , but its well worth it.
Could the alfalfa be too fresh , hot ? I sure hope someone with more experience comes on here ……I'm so sorry


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

If these are young kids mostly still on milk, it seems highly unlikely that they would be eating enough hay to make them sick let alone kill them. Vaccine or disbudding seems a lot more likely, and I would have held off on the second group until getting results back on the necropsy.


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## takethelead (Dec 18, 2013)

Following this thread and I'm so sorry for your loss. I lost my buckling recently to a doe who slammed him against a wall. Hoping all goes well.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I agree , take all precautions till you have a better idea of whats going on. Better to be safe IMO. Geez , how is baby now ?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

My kids this year all got straight alfalfa... They think it's candy... I switched in October to straight Alfalfa , I haven't had any issues. So I don't think it's the alfalfa, but maybe something in the alfalfa?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Are they seizing from a fever? Corona Virus?


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Third kid sounds like polio to me since she got better after getting thiamine.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Fever? Type of diarhea? Could be a bacteria of some sort. Listeria attacks the brain but not usually in kids. You'd see it more in adults. It could be a virus too. Are you have autopsys done on the the two kids?


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## eqstrnathlete (Mar 16, 2013)

I really think this stems from the disbudding. If it was feed then I would think your moms would be having issues. How long are you burning each horn bud and how many times?


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Is it possible that the does of these ill kids are carrying listeriosis? And thus kids are born with it. The seizure, falling around remind me of listeriosis. Maybe because it is so fresh in my mind. Also would make since with them screaming in pain cause of brain swelling. Moldy hay can cause it.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Usually if the does have listeriosis while pregnant they will abort. Listeria has two "forms" acute and abortion disease. Acute is the one from feed or the environment and symptoms start 3 days to 3 weeks after exposure. Then the other doesn't show signs except in bred females and causes them to abort. At least that's my understanding of it. We had a goat get listeriosis last year and this is the way the vet described it to us. Unfortunately it's incredibly hard to treat and our guy didn't make it. But we did learn a great deal through it all so hopefully it won't happen again.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Both polio and listeriosis cause brain swelling but polio is much more common in kids than listeriosis. Sick kid number 3 responded quickly to treatment. Which is what you would expect from polio.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I'm thinking on the disbudding too... A friend of mine had these same issues... It could be as simple as you just need a new iron or not keep it on as long... Not saying you don't do it right, because the person my friend had do her kids had been doing it for years and probably just needed a new iron..

Did you ever send in one of the kids to find out what was wrong?


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

I took both kids to my vet for autopsy. Should have results today. 

The first and 3rd kid exhibit the exact same symptoms and kid 1 did not respond to treatment. Kid 3 improved after 2nd treatment, but I think the dex or the huge pen doses helped her. ??? I gave her 3x the pen as I gave doe 1 and did not drench her with mineral oil and baking soda as I did the 1st one. The 2nd one showed no signs of being sick at bedtime and was dead at morning feeding. 

This 3rd doe was disbudded over a week ago and was vaccinated with a different bottle of cdt than the other 2. 

I really believe this is a case of clostridium bacteria infection. I just can't figure out what is causing it! Is it possible that the alfalfa is causing the does to produce so much more milk that the kids are overeating that way?


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I wouldn't think so. What did your vet think?


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## Juperlative (Mar 25, 2014)

CD antitoxin would be a good thing to have on hand. Enterotoxemia kills quick (the bacteria can explode in as little as 8 minutes). It only requires a stressor to weaken the immune system enough for the bacteria to get the upper hand. The bacteria produce a toxin the body cant dispose of, and it shuts down the rumen. The symptoms are abdominal pain, uncoordination, lack of gut sounds, (you may think bloat, but the kid is not bloated). coma and death. I've used Thiamin when dealing with enterotoxemia, i believe it helps support the toxin release from the liver or kidneys? not sure but it's beneficial and might explain why the 3rd doeling lived. banamine, thiamin, antitoxin are what has worked for me. Just an idea... enterotoxemia is more common than polio, and listerosis, can be the killer that ends kids affected by most anything else. It is very very hard to treat, and very good and killing quickly and looking like every other illness a kid can have until it does
. I am so sorry you lost those kids, and I do hope the vet provides you with some light and a plan of attack should you deal with whatever it is again. good luck, and do keep us posted!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would agree with clostridium bacteria infection...all the symptoms are there...in kids its known as floppy kid...I would think moms milk is too rich...I would pull moms off the new hay and give plain coastal...in the mean time pull babies for about 24 hours and bottle electros...even if they are acting well...give time for tummies to settle...give every kid a shot of CD antitoxin...CD&T is not effective in kids under 3 months old per manufacturer...

This third baby, if you dont have cd antitoxin..dose milk of magnesia...help flush his system...

You will get confirmation with the neo....the kidney will show the damage...


best wishes..Im very sorry for your losses


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I've never heard of a kid overeating while nursing on mom, regardless of how much they produce. When they have free access they're much better at regulating when they're full, as opposed to having limited meals from a bottle. 

You did say the does were vaccinated, right? So the kids should have passive immunity for CDT. Puzzling; glad the autopsy is coming back so soon.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

^^^That's what I thought.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

In kids we call it floppy kid..its usually the c bacteria that causes it....they get too much milk or too rich milk..things slow down and they get sick...


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Just for clarification Happybleats, the kids can get sick if mom's milk is too rich? I switched my girls to straight alfalfa a month before they kidded. That was in October... Would it be the switch to the straight alfalfa all of the sudden while the kids were on the moms that might cause illness?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I wouldnt say Straight alfalfa alone is the problem..we fed straight alfalfa with great success except for one doe..who freshened with super rich milk...so rich she could not raise her kids the first few weeks on her milk alone..we had to milk her and mix it with another moms milk...other wise the kids would get very ill with FKS, we almost lost one of her buck kids while trying to figure it out...her milk was butter color for the first few weeks...wonderful for us..but not the kids. Next few seasons we mixed it up and never had a problem....but all other babies did well...so is it the alfalfa? Moms way of processing it..or the genetics? or the kids strength?? I have no idea...FKS is still a mystery as to why one kid will get it and not another..even sibings. there are more questions then answers and they still are not sure what exactly causes FKS...


> There are three generalized categories of Entertoxemia: (1) Very young nursing kids who overeat on dam's milk. Overeating Disease at this stage of life is known as Floppy Kid Syndrome, seldom has diarrhea as a symptom, and is a paracute condition (rapid onset with quick death if not immediately treated) usually caused by Type C.


How I understand it from reading is the bacterium Clostridium perfringens is present in every goats gut and intestines...anytime something interferes with digestion, slows down the rumen...the bacterium begins to multiply to the point of making the goat sick..this is what Over eaters is...a over population of C and or D bacterium. With kids they usually find it being the "c"..not sure why. so if you have moms making very rich milk and you have a baby or two who just cant seem to digest it well...then FKS happens...and happens fast...the symptoms these babies presented is consitant with FKS...here is a quote from tennesee meat goats with a good symptom list



> Symptoms of Enterotoxemia include watery diarrhea (or no diarrhea, if paracute), lethargy (sluggish) , low body temperature as the goat begins to shut down and die, arching of the back (abdominal discomfort), screaming (extremely painful), head pulled back, lying on side and leg paddling, convulsions, coma, and death. Recovery is unlikely if treatment isn't immediate and aggressive. Post-mortem diagnosis will reflect a pulpy kidney if the necropsy is done immediately.


I actually think calling it over eaters can be misleading since it can be more then over endulgence that causes the rumen to slow..or a babies tummy to slow like sudden change in feed for example.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Floppy kid syndrome refers to metabolic acidosis with a high anion gap without dehydration or any known cause in young kids that were normal at birth. Metabolic acidosis usually is accompanied by either obvious evidence of bicarbonate loss (diarrhea) or severe dehydration. However, neither of these conditions are are present with floppy kid syndrome. The term floppy kid syndrome is frequently used by owners to refer to any kid that is weak and does not have an overt organ specific sign (e.g., diarrhea). 

Per my Sheep and Goat Medicine textbook. 

Enterotoxemia and floppy kid syndrome are not interchangeable terms.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Okay thanks for the info.. At least I will know what to look for when/if I ever have problems..


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Rant. .....

When I dropped off the dead kids at the vets, I asked for some CD anti toxin. My regular vet was out, so I spoke with the other vet. He told me that there was no such product and that I was confused, I must be thinking of the tetanus anti toxin. I told him I have seen it available online and he continued to inform me I was wrong and that the only outcome of clostridium bacteria infection was sudden death. 

Well he's an idiot and I ordered some when I got home. Won't see it for a few days though. :/


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm so sorry! He is an idiot. Be sure to take him a bottle so he knows he's the one that's confused.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I disagree....Both entero and FKS ae very much a like..both still are effected by the 
Clostridium bacterium...both are due to too much to digest..be it grain or milk..With FKS diarrhea is not one of the common signs...there is still we do not understand about entero or FKS...I dont thnk there is one clear answer..we just need to keep reading, listen to case studies and keep evolving our information and learning...

http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/goats/Resources/GoatArticles/GoatHealth/KidCare/Floppykid1.pdf


> Characteristically, goat producers reported that newborn kids seem to do fine for a few days after birth, beyond which they start
> to show depression, weakness and flaccid paralysis without signs of diarrhea and have normal rectal temperature. One common
> clinical sign reported is distension of the abdomen.


http://www.boergoats.com/clean/articleads.php?art=70


> The exact cause of the "floppy kid syndrome" is not known. We believe that it is the result of a combination of factors including consumption of excessive amounts of milk by the kids as well as the proliferation of an "infectious agent" in the gastrointestinal tract. All producers that brought affected kids to TAES-SA indicated that they had improved the nutrition of the nannies with respect to previous years. Either they were supplementing the nannies with corn or a concentrate feed or they had put the nannies in irrigated/improved pastures some time before parturition. For this reason milk production by the nannies and the quality of milk seemed to be better. In addition, some producers started to kid in enclosed pens (as opposed to kidding on the range) giving the kids an opportunity to suckle more often and consume more milk. These observations were supported by the fact that all affected kids that we necropsied at TAES-SA had a stomach full of milk. The excessive amount of milk in the stomach seems to predispose to the proliferation of microorganisms (probably Escherichia coli or *Clostridium*) in the gastrointestinal tract that leads to changes in the acidity (pH) in the digestive tract, intestinal atonia (lack of movement to the intestine) and systemic acidosis. The latter is the cause of some of the signs associated with the disease such as weakness and flaccidity (these signs are not the result of the lack of energy).


http://www.goatworld.com/articles/fks/fksrw.shtml


> Floppy Kid Syndrome:
> 
> Affects kids from 3-21 days of age. Some get it younger or older, they can have it twice.
> Is found in dam raised kids, as well as bottle raised kids.
> ...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Wow...Im suprised he didnt know what CD Antitoxin was!!...You can grab some Milk of magnesia in case you need something ASAP until you get your order...

Hows your third baby doing??


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

The etiology of floppy kid syndrome is not know. A variety of disorders and conditions have been proposed as the cause of metabolic acidosis without dehydration, including intestinal fermentation of milk in well fed kids with subsequent absorption of volatile fatty acids, transient neonatal renal tubular acidosis, and lactic acidosis secondary to toxic impairment of cardiovascular function. Overgrowth of C. perfingens type A is often suggested as a source of the toxin... Aggressively feeding kids are more likely to suffer from milk fermentation or clostridial overgrowth. An infectious etiology appears to be more likely in herds displaying an increased incidence of this metabolic disturbances as the kidding season progresses. Sheep and Goat Medicine by Pugh and Baird.


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## springkids (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm so sorry. That is so frustrating. Hopefully the vet has answers soon.


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## Cactus_Acres (Sep 24, 2013)

BCG, does your local feed store carry it? Ours does.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

happybleats said:


> Wow...Im suprised he didnt know what CD Antitoxin was!!...You can grab some Milk of magnesia in case you need something ASAP until you get your order...
> 
> Hows your third baby doing??


I'll do that. Thank you for the tip! 
3rd baby is going well. Seems normal today! Yeah! !!!


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Results 

Large amounts of curdled milk in stomach. Higher than normal levels of clostridium bacteria, but intestines were not hemorrhaged as expected with entrotoxemia. Kidneys did show signs however. Vets diagnosis is FKS from too much and/or too rich milk that kid was not able to digest properly. I saved kid #3 by not putting anything more into her belly and letting it work itself out , aided by the thiamin given (hence the single episode of diarrhea). Therefore, I killed #1 by drenching her with mineral oil and baking soda.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Cactus_Acres said:


> BCG, does your local feed store carry it? Ours does.


Unfortunately no.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Oh my!! Yep, all vets are not alike... Sorry you had to go through that. Glad you got answers, and now you know what to do and what to avoid..


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Baking soda is the treatment for FKS. I think you did a good job trying to cover for everything it could have been in kid 1. Your kids didn't present as text book FKS (stop nursing, weak muscles, stumbling and then going limp). The seizures and crying seemed more like polio or listeriosis than FKS. And then you also had to consider if the disbudding played a part. I think you did an excellent job trying to save your kids. Don't beat yourself up.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Therefore, I killed #1 by drenching her with mineral oil and baking soda


No you did not kill your baby!...the illness was already in the works...you saw a problem and hit it with everything you had to save the baby...not one person on here will tell you otherwise!! and you were very wise to have the necropsy done to see what was indeed going on..there for staying a head and prepared if by chance another kid falls ill....do not blame yourself..you did after all save kid number three!! 
Milk of magnesia is 15 cc per 60# ..breaking down kid size its 3.75 cc per 15#...with MOM there will be no need to add baking soda....

best wishes


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Thank you all for your support. I hope this thread helps others prevent this in their own herds. And if need be, treat the illness.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Don't you blame yourself ! I agree with Cathy.

Just a thought , maybe your vet can educate the other vet that gave you the wrong info regarding the C&D antitoxin…..and to be so arrogant about it ! That really got me mad 

Again , I'm so sorry for your losses honey :hug:


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Thank you Trickyroo. You're very sweet.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

LadySecret said:


> Baking soda is the treatment for FKS.


No, baking soda, Thiamine, and Pen G is the treatment for FKS, Baking soda alone only prolongs it.

It doesn't matter which Clostridium it was, that can go back and forth forever. There are way more than just the 2 we normally vaccinate for. There are more broad range vaccines for these weird years and sometimes we need to use them.


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## Juperlative (Mar 25, 2014)

Enterotoxemia is what kills the kid. wether from _Clostridium perfringens, or_ Escherichia coli. Most everytime we have seen it, it has occured from multiple causes. Sudden change in formula, sudden change in exposure, stress, exposure to high bacteria levels after stress, and overfeeding/eating (even in dam raised kids). Mainly, in bottle babies. Most any stress or thing that can lower the immune system, such as the disbudding, mixed with one or two other things, can lead to entero.
When a kid presents with it... we've used the following meds (it varies with intuition 
Immediately and everytime:
CD Anti-toxin
banamine
Thiamin
Electrolytes (sub-dermal) - I have had really good luck adding sulfadimethoxine 12.5% to the subdermal fluids for a hail mary save).
Bovi-Sera (not always as it's spendy...but if I think I can save the kid I do.)

The kid will live or die (or a little of both) with the above.

We do not put anything in the kids tummy but electrolytes for the next 24 hours. Keep the kid hydrated by any means possible. Improvement in the kid should be evident fairly quickly. Then we slowly add the milk (or whatever) back in with the electrolytes, increasing the milk % slowly and watching for slow tummy emptying, distress, any relapse. We sometimes alternate a milk feeding, then an electrolyte bottle next time to make sure the milk flushes.

we'll continue to treat the kid with: sulfadimethoxine, LA200, or whatever we feel will best treat the bacteria we are dealing with. Also
probiotics
electrolytes LOTS!
banamine maybe
pepto maybe
and lots of moral boosting

I've fought this one a few times and this is just what I choose to do. I've gotten fairly handy at saving them more often than not, and mostly at the neck arching, screaming, convulsions stage (cause thats when my goat friends and clients decide they need my help LOL)...once from the coma at the end. So right or wrong, I hope it helps someone else save a goatie.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Juperlative said:


> Enterotoxemia is what kills the kid. wether from _Clostridium perfringens, or_ Escherichia coli. Most everytime we have seen it, it has occured from multiple causes. Sudden change in formula, sudden change in exposure, stress, exposure to high bacteria levels after stress, and overfeeding/eating (even in dam raised kids). Mainly, in bottle babies. Most any stress or thing that can lower the immune system, such as the disbudding, mixed with one or two other things, can lead to entero.
> When a kid presents with it... we've used the following meds (it varies with intuition
> Immediately and everytime:
> CD Anti-toxin
> ...


Great info. Thanks for sharing.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

goathiker said:


> No, baking soda, Thiamine, and Pen G is the treatment for FKS, Baking soda alone only prolongs it.


I'll have to add that to my book that only says to treat with baking soda and hold all milk for 24 hours. Do you use the regular dosing for Pen G and thiamine or do you use the high dose and greater frequency like with listeriosis?


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Sorry you lost your kids. Having the necropsy done is a huge tool in identifying the cause of kid death and can help in the future going forward. I am the producer that Katrina and Skyla were talking about loses kids to disbudding injury. I thought they were dying from enterotoxiemia. They were disbudded and withing 48 hours they were dead. The would stumble, and scream. Pull their heads up over their shoulders(star gaze), have seizures with bouncing eye balls. And then they would just die. I treated with banamine, thiamine, baking soda noting worked. So I sent a kid in for necropsy and found the burn had gone to the folds of the brain. The swelling was inside the skull causing the polio symptoms.

Sorry for the deaths of your kids, it's a tough learning curve at times. I did learn through it that you don't always have to have antitoxin since it seems to be very hard to find or get in. 3cc penicillian given orally when you first notice entero symptoms can be very effective.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

HELP!!!!!!! In desperate need of anti toxin! None of the vets have any, and all of the online stores are out of stock. Vet said it had been on back order for months. PLEASE! If any of you have any you would be willing to share, I'd gladly pay to have it overnighted. I lost 2 more kids today and another is sick.


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

3cc penicillin by mouth. I don't have anti toxin but that was a trick I picked up from a vet.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

I have some antitoxin but only 1 vial, I would be willing to share but I want to keep some of the vial in case I need it.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I suppose you aren't close to Columbus, OH.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

No I am in Oregon


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Can you get activated charcoal? MOM will also help...


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

MOM Milk of magnesia.... Worked well for me when I did have CD antitoxin..


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Dream acres, where in Oregon are you? I would be happy with any amount I could get at this point.


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## OGYC_Laura (Jan 9, 2014)

I think you can overnight from Jeffers .. So sorry you are dealing with this.. I battled it last season.. It is truly heart wrenching 


Old Goats & Young Chicks Farm
Boer and Boer Cross


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Jeffers and every other supply store is out of stock. Been on back order for months. 3 dead babies in the last 24 hours. Sooooo heart breaking. And of coarse it's the best and most special ones that are dying. I am so depressed right now.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Karen, bless her heart, is sending me some! Huge thank you to all of you willing to help and a thank you for all who have offered support. It means a lot to this goat herder!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I wonder why they have such a supply problem with the antitoxin? My vet was out for a long time so when they got it in I picked up a big vial. Haven't needed it yet (knock on wood!)


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## OGYC_Laura (Jan 9, 2014)

I bought mine from Jeffers so I tried to look last night and could not even locate the product.. As if they don't sell it anymore.. My vet was not aware that existed either until I showed it to him


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I put it in my cart last week while I was trying to decide what vaccines I needed to buy and how many... And it's not in my cart anymore and I can't find a product page for it either. Weird!


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Let me know if you need more I think I have some. Can't remember if I got the anti toxin or toxoid but I'll check. My local tsc has had it every time I go in as well.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Man , thats terrible. Prayers sent no more losses  Im so sorry


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

rebelINny said:


> Let me know if you need more I think I have some. Can't remember if I got the anti toxin or toxoid but I'll check. My local tsc has had it every time I go in as well.


Thank you! We do not have tsc in these parts and while all the feed stores carry the toxoid, none carry the anti toxin.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I can send some as well , just say the word. 

When your out of the danger zone and all is well , i would talk to your feed stores and explain the life saving reasons they should carry this.
Totally worth the time and effort it will take IMO .


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Thank you all so very much!

My vet called the Colorado syrum lab to try and get some today and was told that they are so backed up that it's a 9 month waiting list. Apparently the other company making the anti toxin went out of business causing the issue.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Scary , very scary , thanks for letting us know.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Wow.......Use Milk of magnesia in place of cd antitoxin..15 cc per 60#..
Best wishes


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