# 2/25/08 Difficult Births



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Have you experienced a difficult birth? what did you do?

On average how many assists do you have per year, how many goats do you have? Is it the same goat or different goats, was it size, position of the kids? Did you change anything in later years to remedy the situation, was there a better outcome?

Have you found difficult birthing to be genetic or buck related?

If you have any tips please share.

Also check out this thread for phone numbers of people who are willing to help you during a kidding season:

Kidding help phone numbers


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## Fainters (Oct 10, 2007)

My kidding started in December. I had 5 does kid. All had normal births except for one pygmy. She pushed the head out before I found her and no matter what I did, I could not get my hand in to get the feet and pull them out. I called the vet and asked for options. He told me to cut the baby's head off, push it back in and then pull it out. Since the baby had been suffocated for awhile, this is what we finally had to do. That is the most horrible thing I have ever had to happen during kidding. My 2nd round of kidding has begun and last week, I had a fainter kid with tripletts. They were somewhat premature looking and 2 were dead and I am still working on saving the 3rd. This was her first time and I don't know if I will rebreed her or not. Right now she has a nasty infection that I believe stems from retaining the placenta. I have her on antibiotics and she is still feeding the surviving baby but I am not sure if I am going to save both of them or not. These births were from different bucks. The first one had her front legs back and back legs forward so all 4 were trying to come out together. The 2nd doe had 1 stuck inside her because it was rolled into a ball. I am not sure about the first two but they appeared to have possibly come out at the same time because the surviving baby had large amounts of bruising on her belly. The does are not related.

http://www.freewebs.com/scapegoatranch/


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

OMG Fainters! How horrible. I was also wondering what precautions you take before going in. As far as gloves? Or washing your hands or what.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I will add mine in here.

I had a "mini assist" back when I had Oberhaslis. It was her second kidding and the second kid. Poor thing had EVERYONE watching her (my mom, brothers -2- my Aunt and my cousin, along with myself) and se was trying to get the doeling out. She might have been able to do it on her own. But after a couple contractions and the head and legs not getting anywhere I just pulled with the contractions to get the kid out. I had to pull pretty hard but then "plop" out she came.

when I purchased Destiny (pygmy) she was due anyday. She went into hard labor just after I returned home from work. I sat out there with her for a long time just watching and waiting. After she had been pushing long and hard for 30minutes it was advised to me to go in and see if everything was ok.

This time it was just my younger brother out with me - I like it this way, much more calm atmosphere. I washed up really good and ran out side we prayed together and then I slowly started to push my hand in. when I felt the kid it wasn't positioned right and I knew it. I felt his back instead of a nose or legs. So I pulled my hand out and told my brother, this isnt good. I was crying as I went back in again and I pushed the kid back into the womb and then felt around for a leg, I prayed I was finding legs from the same side as everything is so slippery inside the doe. I pulled and out he came, so quick. I just knew he was dead. I was crying and thanking the Lord I got him out. But then I saw a flick of his leg and I quickly started to work on him. Poor Destiny was very sore but she was a great mom and took care of him really well. I was scared for her for a while but eventually Iw as able to get her to get up and move about and at that time the buckling was getting up and was interested in nursing. It was a happy ending to something that could have been SO much worse.

Last year Flicka was progressing just as she should. But her vulva hadn't streached enough I guess and the leg was positioned up and around the neck.

Here is a video so you can see what transpired - I didn't have time to clean up or anything but I didn't go in far and you will see that the goo and rest of the birth fluids washed anything out with it.

http://s57.photobucket.com/albums/g231/ ... Flicka.flv


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I've witnessed and assisted almost a dozen difficult births, the #1 rule for difficult births is to STAY CALM yourself. You freak, so does the doe.

When you have to assist, be sure to wash up good, if you wear gloves(I don't) put KY jelly or mineral oil on to get in there. Only to into her when she isn't pushing, otherwise she will push your hand back out. Don't be afraid to go in as far as you can. If you have to pull a kid out, only pull when she pushes to avoid uterine tears.

For kid positions, if you only have a head presented you have to push the head back in and get at least one leg out to get the kid out. If you have only the butt presented(breach birth) you have to push the kid back in and get both back legs out. If you have the kid presented with only the back legs sticking out(the hooves will be upside down) don't panic, these births are usually the easiest. If they come out with their hooves under their chin, break the bubble and pull the hooves forward.

I'll talk about this year's difficult births.

The first was Kadi. Kadi is a rather small doe and she kidded with a huge buckling, I mean HUGE. He was coming out with his hooves under his chin, so we broke the bubble and pulled his feet forward. We had a really really hard time pulling him out. We finally got him out and she was pretty sore for a while. We gave her Arnica 200c for the pain and bruising and she was fine.

The next birth was Mary. Her first kid I had presented only a leg that was sideways. I washed up and went in and got the head into position but I couldn't grab her other leg since Mary was pushing me out. My dad had to get in and assist, the little girl was coming on her side through the canal. The second doe came out with only her head. She had only her head out and the bubble was popped so I went in and grabbed a leg and she came out the rest of the way.

Any does we have to assist, we follow up with Arnica and give them 2000-3000 mg of vitamin C orally to prevent any infection.

Always remember that if you think something is wrong, and you are new to kidding, you shouldn't be afraid to call somebody experienced who can help you out and give you some pointers.


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## goat fever (Oct 18, 2007)

OmG Fainters, so far I think you have had the most horrible birthing story I have ever heard. You actually had to cut of the babies head and push it back in then pull it out. You poor thing to have to do such a thing. Most have broke you heart to do all of that. I will keep watching this thread. I feel I learn the most from the topic of the week.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

i have had to assist with a lot of diffecult biths, not only my own does but others peoples. Last year only one was mine, my smallest doe had triplets, the first was presented tail first. with two more behind her. I have gone in and felt ears, three legs and backs.
I think by far the worst birth i have attended was some people that called me, they got my number from the local vet, they said they had a boer doe who had been in labor for hours and she was not doing well. I got there to find a lot of blood and fluids all over the stall. I was almost positive the doe had a tear somewhere, she was down on her side and was heaving. I told the people i didn't think there was a good chance of her survivng this kidding. But we could try and save the kids. Reached in and felt a bunch of legs, i didn't know who was whom and where. It would of taken awhile to figure it all out and untangle them all. I said the easiest way to do this and the fastest way was to put the doe down and cut her open. thankfully i had grabbed my med kit, and they had a pistol. he shot the doe in the head as i was cutting her open, we pulled out three large but healthy babies. We were able to milk colostrum out of the doe only minutes after she had passed. It was a sad first kidding for these people but im glad we were able to save her kids. Even if we werent able to save the doe. 
had a difficult kidding at the dairy i work at the other day, a set of twins, mom just wasnt progressing, took a lot of teamwork on that one. Mom was a really big nubian doe. Someone else was pulling kids while i was holding belly up. All are ok now though.
Like Sarah said, the niggest thing is to remian calm and think before acting. If you panic you won't get anywhere. Always have numbers on hand in case of emergency, always know where they are. I have them taped to the underside of the lid of my kidding kit. 
If you have to go in try and scrub if you can. I prefere not to use gloves as i can't seem to get a grip on a slimy kid with a glove. If you have to go past the cervix always give some sort of antibiotics. bacteria can turn quickly into a huge problem with uterus infections. 
If your going to stay with goats and having babies you will more then likely eventually have to assist with a difficult birth. Talking to other people who have done it helps, I was terrified the first time i pulled kids. But if you stay calm and think you can do it then you can do it. I think the easiest way to do so is when you go in close your eyes and visualize how a goat looks. Make sure the legs belong to the same kid, you don;t want to be pulling the legs of two different kids. try and have someone there to hold the doe if you can. And for morale support. preferably another goat person. they always seem to know just what to say and do.
I have found that a lot of times adrenaline kicks in, and you find yourself doing things you never imagined that you could.
Happy Kidding!
beth


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

The first time was when I knew there was another kid in there even tho the doe acted done. I called my breeder and she guided me thru. Nothing. Three days later the vet out, mummified baby way forward. Doe put down.
Last yr Nubian presented head. Sack already broke, Doe screaming for ten minutes trying to deliver. 
Reached in pulled front legs around and out. Following three normal. 
Boer doe not progressing after delivering two. Breech baby, made sure head not twisted backwards, pulled him out.
This yr unassisted births exept for one. Differnt bucks each yr. One FF head seemed to be stuck with front legs out. Doe stopping to sit like a dog and try to reach around to see what was happening in a distressful manner. I tried to open by manipulating the surrounding skin and pulling on legs. It seemed to take forever...hubby's watch said about 5 minutes. Second kid slid right out by self.
I second the fact that you have to remain calm and that you do what you have to do even if you arent completely confident. Like Sparks says, adreneline kicks in and you do things you never imagined you could do. 
If no vet is close and its an emergency you do what you have to do to save lives. I would rather do something wrong than nothing.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I know it may sound silly but one of the biggest helps to me was the books by James Hariett (sp?) He is always talking in detail about his assists and it made me more confident in what I was doing.


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## morganslil1 (Nov 13, 2007)

Stacey thank you so much for posting your video....now I have a better idea of what to expect.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

This thread has really helped me prepare! Great video Stacey. I know that someday I will have to assist, so I am learning as much as I can!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

glad the video has been helpful. Thanks goes to my brother for being patient and videoing the whole thing.

As you will notice it stops and starts - so the video is missing a lot of the waiting. Which of course no one wants to watch 30 minutes or more of just pushing and waiting. So don't be surprised if the labor stalls for a bit then starts back up.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Yes Stacy, great video, I was wondering what the total actual time was, Thank you! Di


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## Buckeye (Jan 29, 2008)

No births here yet this year - first two due in a month. But from last year the worst thing we had to deal with was a second timer. She was just gigantic (not a surprise since she is a quint) but then I can only describe it as "her water broke" and a gallon at least came pouring out. Then nothing for several minutes, which concerned me. Finally she started pushing and out came the only doe of the bunch. She was alive but never tried to stand on anything. Eventually had to put her down as she couldn't stand or swallow. Found out from vet neighbor that the large sac of fluid is an indicator of a genetic defect. The second kid came out fine and was walking all over his sister in minutes. Third didn't come and didn't come. Eventually I got in there and found something I've never seen before - his jaw was open and hooked on her bone. I had to wait for a contraction to subside then unhook it and guide him out. Needless to say we were never able to get the liquid out of his lungs so he didn't make it. Kid number four came 10 minutes later and was fine. That was last year's last birth and our only losses of the season. Sad way to end it.

I agree with Stacey that reading the James Harriot books as a kid was a big help - as well as spending every summer on a large dairy farm and watching birth after birth after birth, many of which were assisted. Everything is on a much larger scale of course. The farmer's whole arm to his shoulder goes inside the cow sometimes. You certainly can do what needs to be done when the time comes to do it.


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## Buckeye (Jan 29, 2008)

Beth mentioned that a pistol was needed during that traumatic birth. I have wondered - what if it becomes obvious that I need to put a goat down in an emergency. We don't keep a gun around, though most neighbors have them. Is a gun the only or best way to do it save an expensive vet call that wouldn't be timely? Sorry to ask such a nasty question, but sometimes it is the most humane answer to a situation and I have wondered what to do.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

We have a shotgun (we live in the middle of no-where) I really hope we never have to use it on one of our own animals. Another way I have heard of is to slit their throat (I personally could NEVER do that in a million years) I think a gun would be the best option.


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## Buckeye (Jan 29, 2008)

Ugh! I hope we don't ever have to do that. It is bad enough to behead a chicken! My poor husband almost threw up (I held, he chopped).


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

LOL, I can't behead anything I feel bad enough when I squash a bug... I have also heard to keep you finger nails short during kidding season.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

theres another thing i normally keep in my kidding kit, a pair of finger nail trimmers. Though with working outside and at another dairy farm and a farm store i tend to keep my nails pretty short, you never know when you may need to go in. If you have long nails you will want to cut them. 
AS for the most humane way to put a doe down in case of emergency i would say a gun is the quickest way you shoot in the back of the head pointed at the mouth. Its fast and the animal never feels it or so i hope. Slitting a throat i have never had to do. I can imagine if you do it right its pretty quick but messy, and if you dont cut deep enough then its bad news. I have also heard of people putting pen directly into the vein and over dosing the goat, but this is a slow and not so painless death. Time is of major importance when you have to put the down down and get the kids out. When he shot the doe, i was already making an incision, because as soon as that doe stops breathing so do your kids. You want to get them out as quick as possible. We had towels ready to go, i handed a kid off to each of them and then took the third to dry myself. To get the kids breathing, we put them upside down between our knees and gently patted the chest. gravity helps get all that fluid out.
beth


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## Buckeye (Jan 29, 2008)

That additional information is helpful - thanks. I hope never to have to experience that, but do want to be prepared and have some idea of what to do without searching through a book or guessing in the middle of an emergency. I appreciate your candor.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Also I was wondering where you would make the incision (SP?) to do an emergency c-section?


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Don't quote me but I'm pretty sure you make it on the left side of the belly. Right side you risk cutting the babies and in the middle I don't think it stitches back right. Thats what I've read but I can't say for sure.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

i made the incision right down her left side. This was an emergency as the doe had already stopped breathing and i needed to get kids out as fast as possible. Before we put the doe down i felt her belly all over to feel where the kids were, they had mostly moved down so i made it on the lefft side just inder the spine, in the hollow space. In a live c section i think a vet would do it on the left side lower down. If you go in on the right side you risk cutting into the rumen. Now in a situation like mine where the doe was already gone you dont need to worry about that and if youre worried about cutting the kids i would suggest that, you can just push everything aside and access the uterus. But in a live c section, if you cut the rumen you're in big trouble not to mention how much rumen stinks. so i would think a vet would go in from they left side or maybe underneath. i have never seen a live c section on a goat. or any large animal. I have seen them on dogs and cats. 
beth


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## FarmGirl18 (Oct 5, 2007)

I've seen a video of a live C-section done on a cow, it was done on the left side pretty much just an up and down cut. Pretty interesting to watch.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

sparks879 said:


> If you go in on the right side you risk cutting into the rumen.


 :?

I thought the rumen was on the left :shrug:


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Me too.................


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

you guys are right. Rumen is on left uterus is on right. I must have been more tired then i thought or sicker...
lol
thanks for correcting me guys.
beth


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## LiddleGoteGurl (Nov 29, 2007)

StaceyRoop said:


> I know it may sound silly but one of the biggest helps to me was the books by James Hariett (sp?) He is always talking in detail about his assists and it made me more confident in what I was doing.


I love James Herriot's books. In fact, I picked up my first one when I was about 11 and I knew then that a vet is what I am meant to be.

Yes, I think that reading them really gave me the confidence to do what needed to be done with my first "difficult" birth (the doe was a FF and was having a HUGE single.. thankfully everything turned out OK. It really wasn't that bad but she was screaming and running around everywhere). I didn't even cringe with that. Thank you Mr. Herriot!!

My first "really" difficult birth was in February '07. I had a FF doe kidding with twins. The first baby was coming out with her head turned all the way back. With that type of presentation it can be difficult to figure out what is going on (I will get to that in a minute!). Space was hard to find, everything was tight in there. But after about 30 minutes of struggling I managed to turn that head around. Pulled that baby out and the next slid out easily. They were just fine.

In '07 we had I think 15 does kid, and 5 needed assistance (for those of you that haven't been through a kidding season.. let me just say that is pretty rare.)

One set was triplets.. they were tangled up. I can't remember the exact details but I think that two were trying to come out at once. I pushed one back and got one out, and got the next out. The last was backwards I think, butt first, so I had to pull the back legs out and pull it backwords. They all made it and are gorgeous huge girls now!

I delivered all those kids (and they all made it) except for one set which required the vet. The baby's head was turned back along it's body and I swear those kids were up to her elbows. She was also a FF, and everything was really confusing. I thought the baby was breech and I couldn't get those legs out.. that was seriously what it felt like. But thankfully the vet came and everyone made it.

Everyone is right. The MOST important thing is that you stay calm. Whatever you do, don't lose it! That is about the worst thing that can happen, because the doe isn't getting any closer to delivering the kids, you aren't getting any closer to helping her, and it actually makes matters worse by freaking you both out. So stay calm.

Before I go in I always make sure I SCRUB scrub scrub up. I also keep my fingernails completely trimmed during kidding season. When I go in I have a bucket of hot water next to me too, so I can dip my hands in before I go back in each time. I like to use superlube on my hands after I scrub up each time, right before I go in. It is a an antiseptic/disinfectant and a lubricant. It is super nice. It is also good for putting on eartags before they go in the goat's ear.. .
You can get superlube from Premier supplies.. http://www.premier1supplies.com/detail. ... &cat_id=12

Also, one good thing that you should always remember: If you get a kid out and it is not breathing, always make sure that it's airways are clear and if they are and it still is not breathing, stand up, hold it by the back legs (letting the baby hang down) and swing back and forth (imagine the kid is a pendulum! Horrid I know, but I have saved several babies by doing this!), gently but make sure that you do a good job of swinging it. Also always make sure you have lots of space if you are forced to do that (especially if it is a full sized kid, I am sure with the minis it is easier), because it is easy to bang the baby's head and that could cause serious damage.


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## Sweet Gum Minis (Oct 6, 2007)

My post is going to be many many months behind but I had to post. That is a horrible story Fainters! I hope I never have to do that but I know there's a chance with all goat breeding.

My only real assistance was with Faith last year. She'd been pushing and contracting all night and I decided if she hadn't progressed by the morning I was going in. So that morning when she hadn't changed I went in. Hubby sat down and held her in his lap. She was standing. I washed up, loobed up and went in. I do not wear gloves during births so that's not an issue. I usually clip my finger nails just before kidding time too. Anyway, went in and actually had my whole hand in past her cervix. Felt a bag with a small hole in it. If it hadn't had the small hole there's no telling if I could have broke it. I ripped the bag open inside her and located a hoof and nose and then the other hoof. Pulled her out. The kid fought me the whole way out. Faith was perfect and didn't do anything, just let me do it. Got the kid out alive and well. Faith did well too. That was that. 

I always break the bag on does kidding. Habit more than anything, but I'm always curious what's coming. So when a bubble presents outside the doe I pop it. It will pop on its own anyway. Doesn't hurt the doe if it pops inside, just means her water broke. Their uterous will discard what needs to go on its own.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

There are a few things Ive learned over the last couple of years re: difficult births. One basic is that the doe has plenty of excercise. There is also the mineral factors, like enough copper. I dont remember the exact mineral that supposedly aids in contractions if someone finds out please post!
Then there are does that get fed too much grain in the last few weeks or months of pregnancy. inotherwords, most of the above is under our control! 
This year was pretty good, I fed my girls limited amounts of grain two weeks prior to breeding and started them up again slowly 2 weeks before kidding. These are mostly Boers.
We also built a "bar" for their front feet around the hay rack. My girls get 2nd or 3rd cut alfalfa.
They also get a round of CDT & Bose a few weeks before breeding and wormed. Then wormed again the day of kidding.
I realize the occasional compicated delivery happens despite our best efforts.
We have used 3 different bucks in 3 different seasons. This past year he was a young thang, barely a year old. 
All kids hit the ground scrambling to thier feet & making sucking noises before moms could get them dry...I had never noticed this before.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I think one of the biggest things that affecst kidding is minerals and lack of. 

We have rarely had a bad kidding (mostly w/ pygmies; none w/ our Nigerians yet, hopefully will not!) 
We usually give the doe warm water w/ rasberry leaf tea in it the last couple days before she is due. Rasberry is excellent for pre-birthing as it gets lots of mucous going to make things go smoother. We also give Arnica after a bad kidding and all kiddings too, it helps the doe heal up more quickly. I do not have much experience in bad kiddings. If I can't fix the kid in 10 minutes we're off to the vet. We're fortunate enough to live close by an excellent goat vet.

This thread is VERY helpful. Thanks so much!


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Oh, I forgot that I read somewhere about apple cider vinegar being good for birthing, not quite sure if that is true but our goats like it in their water anyways, so we give it them.

Plenty of excercise is VERY important too. Our does either have free-roaming pasture or are taken on walks everyday.


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## Sweet Gum Minis (Oct 6, 2007)

Civil was a difficult birth but she is overweight.


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## Nigie Girl (Oct 20, 2007)

My doe Brie kidded this year. First one out was a runt--a girl (ironic...because usually boys come first). Second was a boy. Third boy got stuck. He was in the breech position but his leg was tucked under him. He definitely did not fit and he was big. My mom of course got hysterical (I told her to STAY CALM but i can't control other people's emotions. I called all the vets in the region and for TWO HOURS no one called me back. and it was only 9 pm and i had called all the emergency services and it wasn't a holiday or weekend or anything. Finally my friend told me to call this lady who runs the local 4-H sheep club. She came (she is MUCH more experienced with difficult births) and she pulled the babies out within the half hour. Oh...did i mention...babies...not baby. The boy that was stuck came and last was a big healthy girl. All were alive...amazingly. My doe stopped pushing and screaming when the third was stuck. she was so exhausted her fur was soaked and she just laid down and didn't even want to stand up to help the sheep lady out. She just gave up. 
Then I was talking to the vet (another hour later) after he gave her the antibiotics (since hands were stuck into her MULTIPLE times, and the vet said that in the case of a problem birth, you have to move your hands in a washing machine motion inside the uterus which helps the kids to untangle. Has anyone tried this?


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## Sonrise Farm (Sep 18, 2008)

I think is my doe had kidding problems and if it was a life and death situation, I would do whatever it takes to keep one or the other or both alive. I grew up around butchering chickens and hogs and stuff, so I'm not squeamish--- but I'm pretty sure I would have to vomit if I had to do what that lady did with that fainter doe. :tears: I try to prepare myself for the worst every kidding season, and haven't had much problems yet. By the way, great thread!


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

A breeder-friend of mine who raises pygmies told me that if she had to save the baby or momma, she would want the mom saved. It seems kind of harsh but she said that the momma was her pet and they were "friends". She didn't know the babies, but knew the mom and didn't want to lose her. I'm kind of the same way. I'd rather save the mom, if at all possible. I'm so thankful we are close to an experienced goat vet. If we can't get the kid out in 10 minutes, I'm off to the vet.


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## Sonrise Farm (Sep 18, 2008)

See, my problem is I don't have any vets close by except our neighbor who is a vet assistant. (she has horses) and I call her sometimes for helpful information . . . like when one of my does retained a placenta . . .


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## lesserweevil (Oct 5, 2007)

Well Whisper had a very difficult birth last year - her first birth. She was kidding for several hours - but not strong contractions so I was happy leaving her. Finally I got up at 0200 and I was like, she's been kidding since 1600, those kids /have/ to come out. So I investigated - and there were 4 hooves in the birth canal. FUN.

Of course I did it all wrong - I panicked - I mean, thinking back, I had plenty of time, but you know how it is when those things happen. Anyway I got the legs back and managed to find a head (upside down, wrong way round) straightened it up and pulled it along with a leg. The rest is history.

It was scary though.

And no, I didnt use gloves, or lub, or anything. Just got the babies and pulled them out. Penicillin afterwards in case of infection.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

At work we kid every three months - usually 60 to 80 does in the kidding mib. We bring them into a small paddock near the house 4 weeks before they are due to start kidding. Once they start, we tend to average between 3 and 5 each day. They kid in the paddock then we bring them in to be penned for 1 - 2 days (triplets/quads, difficult births and not so keen mums stay longer), then they go into a fresh paddock. 

Our last kidding we had 62 does and ended up with a little over 140 kids. We only had 1 truly difficult birth - an older doe (6 years or so) with plenty of room but one very large single buck, and he was positioned upside down and back to front, with his head turned around to the side. One front leg and one back leg were presenting. It took about 40 mins to correct but ended up with a live kid and healthy mum. Also had one case of preg tox - doe was down for three days before birth - had triplets but one was doa, other two bucks happy and healthy. All other deliveries were unassisted. We are just coming up to our next kidding season. 

With my own goats kidding this year, I had all unassisted except one - which needed a caesarian. Ended up with good strong healthy twin bucks and my doe alive and strong  

A friend has had a terrible time recently - two FB boer does kidded with 5 kids each, and the third had quads. I think she has 3/5, 3/5 and 2/4 alive at the moment. No problems with deliveries, just so so small.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Well, I had my first hard time recently with Cocoa. She was pretty big, for a small doe (ND), I thought she was having twins this time. So, she started pushing and when I saw a foot and a nose I went searching for the other foot. Nope, so I tried to bring the kid out anyway, nope, so I tried pushing it back in to get the other foot. Nope. So there I am with the doe with a foot sticking out, obviously stuck kid. DIL was with me so off we went to the vet. So, she couldn't get it out after about half hour of trying, decided to do the c-section. She was unsure if we could save the kid...and everything seemed to move sooooo slooooow! Couldn't get her totally "out" and after vet had incision done, would reach in for the uterus, and Cocoa would move! So, had to give her more anesthesia, and wait! I was certain the kid was dead. Imagine my surprise when we got him out finally and he moved! But, he was so anesthetised! They had to give him something to reverse it. But, he's fine now, a bottle baby, but we love him. Cocoa is good too. She came through like a trooper, and yesterday I saw her batting her eyes at the buck! LOL. We'll wait awhile before we chance that again!

Dr. said she usually gets goats in that have been labouring for many hours, so the prognosis is guarded because of what they've been through already.


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## steeledan (Jan 8, 2009)

wow , we are first timers getting ready to kid ,omg the videos are great , i'm glad there are vets but the more we read about this the more confident we are getting, we have our supplies ready and are looking forward to this expericence. again thanks for the vidoes wow


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## AlecBGreen (Jul 7, 2009)

thanks to everyone for sharing. its so hard to read this, I cant imagine what it was like to go through it.  

We had 3 ND does deliver this year, all with twins, all on their own. First kids were from Maggie (my first, not hers  but were dead in the morning. One still lay in its sac, the other had been cleaned and had moved around. We had a cold snap that day (low 30s in mid April). I think she might've froze. Dont know what happened to the other. The other two girls did beautifully. Each gave us a doe and buck.


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## logansmommy7 (Nov 11, 2009)

Wow-All of you are so brave and seemingly calm in your situations! This is great information-though I hope to not have to go through any of it any time soon. We are hopefully on our first year of kidding-and need all the help we can get! We hope to have kids in May/June. Good luck to all of you this year too!


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## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

I hope this is the right thread for this post! I have been told by another local breeder that she has heard from other people who had this happen to them this year... must be something in the... moon/sun/water?? :shrug: 

Some of you may know that my doe Emily just kidded and I have :kidblue: :kidred: bouncing around my barn right now! In the heat of kidding I didn't really get the chance to figure out why what happened happened, but I think that now I have a pretty good idea. There have been other threads about pen breeding and this story I think shows that pen breeding can cause more heartaches than just missing a doe's delivery date.

When I bought Emily bred (she was pen bred), the owner had taken her to UC Davis to get an ultrasound. There, the vet said she had "1+" babies inside her, and said something even weirder... he didn't think the fetuses were the same age because they weren't the same size. I didn't really get that -- how could she have different age fetuses in her belly? I had never heard of this before. But apparently the vet was right.

When the kids were born at about 6 a.m., the first buckling that came out was stillborn. He was also breach with no hind legs presented, but Emily must have a uterus of steel -- once she started pushing she got him out without my help in about 15 mins. I was sad that he was born dead (absolutely no sign of life, no heartbeat, although I did try to revive him) but I didn't have too much time to think because the second kid came out kicking 2 mins after the first, and the third kid came out kicking 1 min after the second! 

But then I looked at the dead kid later. Not only was he HUGE -- really long and skinny -- he also had a full set of teeth, a mouth twice the size of the other kids, and really big testicles (sorry to be so graphic but it's true). He had also pooped inside his sac... pellet poops, weirdly enough! In other words, signs point to him being quite a bit older than the other two kids. (I should have felt for horns, but by the time I thought of that I had already buried him.) The other two kids are not premature -- they have their eyelashes, etc. So I am thinking (of course I could be wrong) that the big kid died of being kept inside too long.

I am really glad that Emily kept her kids inside her belly (although I hated waiting!!) until the smaller two were ready. I am sad to lose the "big brother", but I feel like my prayers for a safe delivery and healthy kids were answered in the best way possible... two healthy kids, one doeling and one buckling, instead of the alternative, which would have been one buckling and probably two dead premies. 

Anyway, I thought I would share this story with others because it's something I didn't know about and never expected to have to deal with. And it makes me glad that I hand breed. I don't know why Emily cycled again when she was already pregnant, but I don't want it to happen again with another goat of mine! Thank goodness she was so strong and got that big kid out all on her own, and saved the lives of her other two kids! 

(Pretty interesting story for my first kidding experience, huh?)


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

I literally just got home from a class about goat management given by a variety of vets and highly experienced goat breeders...
We discussed this very same topic about how a doe can come into a very slight heat about 7 days after her original breeding. This results in "triplets" that aren't technically triplets, but actually a singe and a set of twins. The teacher said whenever you have triplets is important to check the teeth, the later bred kid will have only "pearls" (tiny teeth) showing but still under the gums, whereas the regular kids will have correct baby teeth. They said it actually happens more than people think, most people just think that one baby is a "runt" or didn't get enough nutrition in the womb...when in actuality it was actually "early" if calculated by the date it was conceived.
It was a great class!!
Just thought I'd add some newly learned knowledge...


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## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

It is so good to hear that theory confirmed by vets and experienced breeders! It was a total shock to me but I am glad that the information is now out there for others. 

Thanks Bellafire for posting that. Interesting that my doe was reversed from what they were saying... two little ones and 1 overgrown one... instead of 2 regular ones and a preemie runt. My younger kids did have teeth, but not like the bigger one had (his were huge) -- I wonder if she kind of split the difference between the gestation times?

I have a hunch that mama would usually go with the gestation period of the twins instead of the single -- something in her body would somehow send a message to preserve the greater number of kids? At least, that seems to have happened in my case, and thank goodness for that.


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## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

Well I had a difficult birth experience last night. My doe Elizabeth was contracting all day (ligs totally gone as of the night before), and then started pushing at around 6:30pm. After 2 hours, she was making no progress except the white mucus plug was showing. (Mind you, she wasn't pushing REALLY hard for those 2 hours, they were kind of wimpy pushes, but she was pushing really hard--grunts, yelling, whole body pushing--for the last 45 minutes or so.)

I went in, and she wasn't dilated much at all. No way was a kid going to fit through her cervix. I could only fit about 2 fingers through the cervix and I thought I felt a breech kid, butt first... there was no recognizable jaw, hoofs, or anything. Well a few minutes after I went in, and a few more contractions on her part, and her water broke everywhere. She was pushing hard and still absolutely nothing... no bubble, not even really any "opening" like maybe a bubble would be coming soon. She was getting tired, and when the contractions hit she wouldn't bother to push anymore -- she'd only push if I went inside and stimulated her cervix. A few minutes after her water broke, and still no progress, I called the vet (at 8:30 on a Sunday night) and he said to meet him at the large animal hospital. We dragged Elizabeth to the station wagon, put her in the back, had the presence of mind to grab a couple of towels, and drove REALLY FAST to the vet.

The vet went in and said she wasn't dilated, and that we had two options, waiting and seeing what would happen -- thus risking the kid, who would die if the placenta detached from the uterine wall, which could happen with contractions -- or doing a C section, thus putting the mom through a major surgery. Luckily a friend was with me and asked "is there any way to get her to dilate more?" The vet said we could try Oxytocin, and gave her a shot of it.

She started contracting, and the second water bag came out. The vet had called his daughter, a vet tech, so at this point there were two vet-type-people on hand (plus me, 2 farm interns/friends, a friend of one of the farm interns, and my FH -- because we had all been waiting with her for her kids to be born).

The vet went in again. She had dilated a little more. He reached his ENTIRE FOREARM into her, I was holding her and she was screaming her head off. After what seemed like forever (probably just a few minutes but a few minutes feels like forever when you're holding a goat screaming bloody murder and pushing as hard as possible to get away from the vet), he pulled out a kid. Weak, but alive. The vet tech swung him, cleared the mouth and nostrils, and we started rubbing him down with towels. Tried to show him to mom but she was really not interested.

The vet said "there's another one" and went back in. Pulled out a second kid, this one a little stronger. Same routine... then dipped both the navels... mom still wanted nothing to do with the kids at all, we had left some mucus for her to lick off, but the vet said that since she wasn't showing any interest (and it was cold) that we should just go ahead and dry them off completely. So we did. And they tried to suck on everyone's fingers the entire car ride home.

SO -- that's the story and the symptoms -- but what was going on in there??

Both kids (who are, incidentally, boys, and as wethers will not even pay for the cost of the vet visit! arg!) were trying to get out at the same time. The interesting part is that, according to the vet, *this is why the doe didn't dilate*. Apparently a properly positioned kid (or even an improperly positioned single kid) will stimulate the cervix to dilate by pushing on it. But both kids were trying to get out at the same time, so they were pushing on either side of the cervix, hence no stimulation, hence no dilation.

This was definitely something I didn't know, and I'm glad I took her to the vet... no way would I have been able to fit my entire hand (let alone arm!) in that goat without more dilation. The vet said that I came at the right time, which made me glad for the decision, and I was glad that he was able to get them out without a C section, which would have cost $450.

The end of the story is starting to look a little happier, too... Elizabeth was like a ZOMBIE when we brought her home last night (at like 11pm), and the kids were miserable nursers, I was up way past midnight trying to get them to suck. They wanted to suck everything in the car but once we got into the barn they wouldn't suck mama's teat, or a bottle, no matter how many times we shoved it into their mouths and squeezed colostrum out, and tickled their rears. Elizabeth wouldn't stop them from nursing but didn't really act like they existed either. She just stared off into space with her ears back acting like she was about to die. It was pretty horrible. But... this morning, she started licking them. So hopefully they will all be okay. And when I woke up at 3am and made her get up for them to nurse, they pretty much found the teats on their own (and they did it again this morning).

Hope that story helps someone else! Boy am I tired.


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## farmgirl42 (Jan 3, 2010)

Oh, wow! Thank the Lord you took her to the vet when you did!

Glad to hear the good outcome! :clap:


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

Good thing you followed your gut instinct and took her to the vet. Your quick thinking saved the doe and the babies. Its also good oxytocin was suggested and worked to dilate her. Interesting information your vet provided and I wonder if it would work from the outside. I mean if you had a doe that was not dilating could you press on the cervix from the vagina side and help stimulate the hormones to release.?Or if the cervix was open enough for a finger or 2, could you hook them to help stimulate from the inside?


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Non-dilation is refered to as "ring womb" and yes, it is possible to massage the cervix into dilation, though sometimes a vet call is still needed. Glad that all worked out in your does delivery Lynda, your quick action is what saved all.


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## ohiogoatgirl (Jan 31, 2010)

when my family had dairy goats (had them for about nine years) we were quite lucky. i only witnessed one stillbirth. my guess is that we had about 5-7 but my parents would have told us, we wouldnt have understood at the time. we never had to help any of them kid, not that i am aware of, but i will check with my dad. the first birth on the farm (since we moved there) was my sisters cat had kittens. it was her first litter and the first kitten was coming out breach. dad said she would work it out herself. after 10 minutes in a box in the bathroom screaming, my dad went in and closed the door and mom made us go outside. he had to reach in with two fingers to get the first kitten out. we all thought she was gonna die but she made it and had half-a-dozen litters more. we named him mickey andhe was my little baby. he was the biggest, muscley cat i have ever seen, and he was also the most love-y cat i have ever seen. he weighed about 20 lbs! he was a farmcat, raised on goatmilk (we got goats right after he was born). he would be home a few days, piggin out on cat food scraps and milk, be gone about a month, be home a few days,... he just stopped coming back, but when he did he was always just as love-y as when he left!


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Well, I had a weird birth this year...could have been tragic if I hadn't been there I probably would have lost a doe and 2-3 kids. 

Carly, NDG, was ready so I wasn't leaving her. She was having trouble I thought with the first one so I went in. Huge head, no feet, last year vet said I could get them out without pushing back in etc., so I tried it...next contraction I tugged, pulled, really pulled and finally he popped out, so ok, huge first kid, probably only one more. So, I cleaned him off and then I see feet...turned upside down, so I know this kid is breach and I have to get it out fast, next contraction, just as I'm starting to pull, out pops a head! I clean the face quickly, next contraction comes before I can panic (thank you, Lord). I pull on the breach kid, out she comes, not breathing, seemingly dead. So, I'm cleaning the face, sucking mucus, and rescue breathing, while I'm also trying to get the next kid out "head only" again! What an ordeal! Everybody is happy healthy and alive so I say again, thank you, Lord!

:kidblue: :kidred: :kidred:


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

Its really good you were there to avoid the tragedy that could have happened. Congrats on the new babies.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Lesee. I bought a doe who was only about 10 months and due in two weeks. Both of hers were tiny, but not premature. Their body temps were horrid and they were weak, so we took them inside and syringe fed them milk from the mom every two hours, gave them karo syrup and electolytes and put them on a heating pad. They finally were strong enough to stand and suckle the next morning and we put them back with mom. 

Had a doe with triplets. One of my last grade does. The second kid had its head and both front legs curled back. Basically the thing was in a ball. Had to struggle hard to get the head around without damaging mom or baby. She was really weak and her head stayed snapped back to her side all night. Took her in and repeated the heating, syringe feeding and karo/electrolyte treatment and she was good by morning. Third kid was still born. Seems like he was all smooshed inside.

The doe I just had presented triplets. I only posted that she had two bucklings because it made the post happier. The first was a doe, but her head was bent back. I got her head correct really easily, but I don't think mom was dilated enough when she came out and her ribs were crushed. Her little heart was beating and she was trying to move but she couldn't breathe. Cleared her lungs and gave her mouth to mouth, but she just wouldn't take a breath. We finally gave up after about 20 minutes. I think the mouth to mouth was keeping her alive, but I think she was suffering and would probably never be able to breathe. I imagine her lungs were messed up from her rib cage being what felt like broken.... Mom waited a pretty good length of time to start pushing out the two bucklings, and she felt more dilated to me at that point, so had no problems with them. The second kid was breech, had to pull his back legs out because his butt was trying to come out by itself, but it was super easy. Third kid had a leg back, but came out without assistance as he was very tiny. He was weak and had no suck reflex but stood on his own. Acted like he was stupid in the head...maybe oxygen deprived a bit? Tried for over an hour to get him to nurse, so I finally syringed him a bunch of colostrum and left him with mom. In the morning he was suckling on his own.

All my other does have been easy. Kids just popped out. I've had 6 does kid now. I know thats not allot, but its not much different from delivering puppies or horses and I've been doing that for years. (Parents breed Aussies.) Have had trouble with half of the births now. I have some much larger, better conformed does though now, so hoping for an easier time. Don't know why this last one had so much trouble, she is capacious, well built and the kids weren't overly large. I think the heat was a factor. Bought her bred. I would never breed for a due date later than June in my area though. July is much too hot for a big ole preggo girl.


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## Saanens N Alpines (Oct 20, 2010)

We had a very sad birth this year. I had a first freshener who was having trouble (in the middle of the night, of course) and went in to feel for the kid. It's head was quite far down but it's hooves weren't far enough forward so I didn't think it would be too hard to get out. I had to go in after a baby last year who had one leg crossed sideways and was much further back in the canal. I was able to get his leg down and help pull him out. Well anyway, even though I got the legs forward I could not get the this kid out. I finally got ahold of a vet and she could not get the baby out either. She finally tied twine around the kids neck and pulled him out dead. She had to pull so hard and so long and said she had never seen kids so stuck. The poor momma goat had someone pulling on kids for hours. I was just sickened about it. They were both born dead, of course and the momma died the next day. 

It was so sad. I did not think the goat was going to live after what we put her through, and I wish we had just put her down in the midst of it. I wish the vet had been more realistic about what the outcome would probably be. She just left and left me some meds for the goat but the goat couldn't get up and moaned until she died. I knew she wouldn't make it deep down inside, but the vet said she could. RIP Angelica:-( I'm so sorry girl.


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## Saanens N Alpines (Oct 20, 2010)

Di, I had a triplet birth this year and also had one breech, so I pulled a little to get it out quickly, but the last one popped right out on it's own and it was back/neck first! They were all good sized healthy babies (2 does and a buck). It was the day after I lost the doe and 2 kids so it was a relief and a blessing.


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## boeredinoh (Sep 3, 2009)

Wow crazy stories. i'm just gunna add my 2 cents and experience here. i've been helping with lambing/kidding/calving for over 13 years, so i've seen and helped with many births. First thing is cleaning up. make sure your nails are short! (fingernails can cause tearing and can harbor bacteria.) then wash your hands. scrub scrub scrub arounds fingernails... It's really good to have a bucket of warm soapy water to first, wash the goat, get all manure and whatnot off and make sure the back-end is real clean. this bucket will also be used to wash twine, or any sort of equipment you may need to help you get babies out. anytime i have to actually reach in, i use gloves. There are various diseases that can be transferred from cows to humans by birth fluids, (these are very rare) even though i don't know of any goat diseases, i don't take chances. This also double protects fingernails. And i always use lube. 

The worst cases i've helped with are with babies that have died in the womb. They come in all sorts of wierd positions. patience, (i know sounds crazy in an emergency situations) will help you and the animal remain calm, and will help you untangle any "mess" of hooves and heads and butts you encounter. But the best advice is once you know you are beyond what you can help with, call a vet immediately! don't wait to see if she will figure it out herself. if you get uncomfortable it's time to call a professional, or a more experienced friend. 

and sometimes you end up something completely out of the ordinary..... poor baby was formed wrong, and was trying to breath, but just couldn't. We think this malformation may be due to a nutritional deficiency. 

i hope the pictures will post...i couldn't see them on the preview, but it said they uploaded... :chin: :shrug:


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## 7thundersranch (Dec 20, 2010)

I had a pretty bad time with one of my does (Cloudy) having stuck kids about 9 months ago (April of 2010). 
She had about 25 people watching her, poor thing  The beginning of her labor looked normal (heavy contractions and breathing, pacing, pawing, etc.) Then about 4-5 hours into it, it was just getting really bad. She was trying to push and nothing (not even a bubble was showing). We decided to see if the kid was stuck (I was thinking breach). One of my close, experienced friends was over helping us with her and she went ahead and tried to stick her finger in, but Cloudy kept pushing it out.

Finally, Kim (my friend) felt something. It was the cervix and she described it as the size of a dime or smaller, constricted so small that her finger could not go through it! I was on one side of the goat and another person on the other side holding her down. She was screaming SOOO loud (I don't blame her), as my friend had her finger inside of her. Cloudy's eyes rolled back in her head and from that point on, it was dead weight! That was the scariest thing!! She finally came to after almost 1 minute of being passed out.

We administered Lutalyse to her to get the contractions moving and to open up her cervix. She finally chilled out a bit, which was GREAT for us! About 10 hours later, she had two beautiful kids! She was fine and those kids were fine, which I was SOOOO thankful for!

I have 12 goats and assist probably 4-5 births a year (2 years experience), so I'm kind of a newbie I guess 

I would HIGHLY recommend one herbal tincture that has SAVED my friends life and one of her goats too! It's called Shephards Purse, a very powerful herb. It stops hemorrhaging in less than a minute! This board goat had just had her kid and then she started to pour blood (it looked like someone was pouring blood out of a gallon jug!). Her tongue was white and her eyes glazed over, she was dying! Then we gave her 3 droppers full of this herb and the bleeding stopped almost instantly! The color to her tongue came back and she looked alive again. AMAZING!

I keep it in my barn on hand at ALL times and I think ALL goat owners should too! Just a word of experience 

-Hannah


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

If my girls push hard for 5 minutes with little or no progress she needs help.
Once my Nubian presented head only. Shortly before that she was obviously in abnormal pain. Had to reach in & pull front legs around. A minute of doe screaming but she delivered the other 3 fine. 
Last yr one of the Boers wasnt progressing so she quit pushing.Sometimes the stuff you know flies out the window at the wrong time.
I could feel his chest but couldnt find the head. Finally called vet who fished him out of there along with his two sisters but he expired maybe 15 minutes later. He had gotten swung around & made sure he was breathing right.


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## SweetSaanens (Mar 6, 2011)

My first pregnant doe a Nigerian Dwarf gave birth last week. The first kid tried to come out head first with arms back! We managed to reach in and get his arms out and the doe finished the rest herself and gave birth to a little buck. The second kid tried to come out arms first and no head! upon further inspection we discovered his head was folded all the way back and we could not position it correctly so we rushed her to the vet straight away. We told the vet we want to save the doe as she is more a pet than anything. The vet tried for over an hour to reposition the kid and finally got it out on her last try before preforming a c-section. By then the kid was dead but not only that the vet discovered that the doe had ruptured her uterus and said there was nothing we could do and we had to euthanize her :tears: :angelgoat: 

According to the vet these birthing problems are quite common in the dwarf breeds as there just isn't enough room in there, So I have to say if we ever have this problem (front legs all the way out and head folded all the way back) again with a Nigerian and the vet can't reposition the baby on the first try or two we will be speaking up and asking for a c-section then as I would recommend to anyone else if their Nigerian doe is more of pet value to them than anything else. 

On the plus side the first kid survived and is currently a house goat as all my other goats are full size dairy goats and I don't want to put him in with them. He is very healthy but having a hard time figuring out if he is human or dog.............He is quite certain my Jack Russell Terrier has and udder under there somewhere!!! :kidblack:


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## Sunny Daze (May 18, 2010)

I have had several difficult births although none last year that I can think of. I had one that had quads, first one was coming out back legs first and seemed to be sliding right out then just stopped. I tried to gently pull and nothing, turns out another was coming head first and they were sort of locked together. I was finally able to push the other one back enough but lost the first kid. The other three did fine. It seems almost every difficult kiddin I have had was when there was company watching. At this particular kidding my husbands parents were there and when I told them she was going in labor they came out with glasses of champagne to celebrate. Guess it wasn't what they were expecting when they had to put down their glasses to try and resuscitate the first kid while I helped deliver the others!

The absolute worst one was a smaller FF who had a single large kid. The kid was presented perfectly but there was just no way she was going to fit. This doe just did not have a large enough opening in her pelvis. After HOURS of trying to pull (with the kids front feet and nose out the whole time) and call vets (it was a sunday and couldn't find anyone who could do a c-section) we decided we were going to lose both (if it wasn't already too late) and put the doe down and did an emergency c-section. My husband shot her and me and a friend immediately went to work cutting out the baby who amazingly was alive, and a doe!! It was definitely the most traumatic birthing experience I have had and the only doe I have ever lost birthing. 

I haven't noticed a correlation except that higher multiples tend to need more arranging while singles tend to need more help pulling.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Well this year I had two difficult deliveries. Cricket started into normal labor, presented a bubble, and then stopped. The bubble went back in and she went back to normal. I went in and found two front legs, so pulled them forward. The head was slung backwards and stuck. I tried and tried to free the head while my husband held the two front legs but I could not get him out. When the vet arrived he was still kicking. The vet then proceeded to man handle my poor doe while we tried to restrain her. It was a horror show with him shoving forceps in so hard and rough. She was screaming and bleeding so I told him to stop. We rushed her to his office for a c-section (on call vet, and not our normal goat vet who is awesome). He performed the c-section with a vertical cut on her right side and pulled the single big buckling out. DOA. Then he saw the doe had a ruptured uterus (I highly suspect from the forceps). She died that night. I looked at her buckling and there was blood all over his head, though not his. I still dont know if it was blunt force trauma from those forceps or not but my baby was alive when the vet walked into the stall. Something didn't look right with that delivery from the beginning. The "streaming" almost looked like a severed umbilical cord to me, though the baby moved for a good hour after that. It was absolutely awful and if I had it to do again, I would have shot my doe before putting her through that pain and agony. It still haunts me and makes me sick. I shuddered when I saw that vet pull up because he's just too rough. Never again.
Our next difficult delivery was yesterday/today. My doe started in with what seemed like typical labor that was building until contractions were so strong and frequent I expected pushing any second. She was lying on one side with both rear legs extended, grunting and biting at her stomach, and throwing her head around. Then it seemed to just stop. There was never any streaming or pushing. Finally, I went in and checked and she was only dilated to a tight 3 fingers. I could not feel babies on the other side of the cervix, just what felt like the bag. She didn't progress further that night so she went in for a c-section this morning (normal goat vet who I love). My doe and her two healthy kids made it just fine.
What I learned from this is that hard labor stopping, even if there's no pushing or streaming yet, is an emergency and those kids are not getting out without intervention.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

March 22, 2011
We had a bad birth this year. This was only my second year breeding goats. I was told by some people to wait until my does were 1 1/2 years old to breed and then by others 8 months and 80lbs to breed. Well my dad decided that 8 months and 80lbs to breed sounded like a better business plan as far as being able to have kids for me to sell. So we went with that idea. I will never do that again. The doe we bred was doing really well growing until she was bred then she slowed way down. When it came time to give birth she tried to pass a 10 pound buckling and she was no where near big enough for that. In those 5 months I would say she only gained 20 to 30 more pounds. We ended up taking her to the vet for a c-section because she could not pass the head. The buckling only lived around 30 minutes. But we did save the doe. She was my niece Kerigan's first doe so she is pretty special. I will now wait until they are atleast 18 months old to breed. I never want to go threw that again if I can help it. She is doing great now and growing really well. The other doe we had bred with her who is only 4 days older did better with her 6 pound doeling. It was still a tight fit but it went way better then the other delivery.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Roger you raise Boers right? My mentor taught me 10 ms & 100lb.

This year we had 4 (all at least 2nd timers) with folded front leg(s) Same buck as last year but no folded legs then.
A breech on one doe...that buckling didnt make it but a doeling delivered breech from another doe without assist made it.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Yes I have boer. I will be waiting 18 months from now on. i have learned from my mistakes. I just felt so horrible for Sky because it was my fault.


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## amylawrence (May 19, 2011)

I should have posted on this board, but I just posted my horror story from last night on the "kidding" board. Please jump over there and read and offer advice. I can't get the images out of my head and didn't sleep last night, making me re-think this goat business b/c I can't deal with this kind of thing! Fainters, your situation was a bad one, probably worse than mine, but I saw my doe's intestines coming out and feel like my inexperience caused it.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Amy I couldnt find it. Soemthing like that is NOT something you did or didnt do, take the heat off yourself.

So sorry :hug:


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## amylawrence (May 19, 2011)

Posted on another thread (new to the site so still learning my way around), seems more applicable to this thread.

My hubby and I are new to goats, started with 2 pro nannies who always delivered with 1 push and were a breeze. Now their does are delivering this season, the first with an assisted delivery for a chin tuck position. We called a local goat farmer for help since we were inexperienced with abnormal presentations. Twins and mama are fine. Yesterday, our smaller doe (one of triplets) went into labor (rather small billy so we thought she would be okay for size of kid?). After giving up pushing, we decided she also had a malpresentation and rather than call the goat farmer again, we tried ourselves. I got two front legs out but head was stuck, couldn't even find it. Pushed legs back in. Long story short, 4 people later (including kind Mr. goat farmer) still could not retrieve the kid, who had moved so far up into the doe that her intestines ruptured. We euthanized her, then opened her to find that the kid was indeed huge. What I am wondering - when I first put my hand in her, I retrieved handfuls of formed poop pellets. Is this normal in the birth canal or perhaps the kid had already ruptured her intestines at that point? We are trying to decide whether to continue in this goat business or get out - it has been a very difficult week and I'm not sure I can handle goats dying in kidding b/c I get so attached to them. Took our first three wethers to market today. I feel like we "practiced" on this poor little doe and killed her and we shouldn't be in this if we can't do it right!


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

My husband and I have been raising goats for 15 years, I feel blessed that up to this point, we have not lost a doe or had to do a c-section. We have had a few stillborns over the years and a few assists. 
For the past 10 years we have been kidding out 15 to 25 does a year. 

This year we have had 19 does kid, with one remaining and due any time now. 

We have had a record number of triplets and a record number of assists. 

The list is as follows:
1st: 8 year old doe with triplets, all tangled up and blocked by first doeling presenting back first. untangled the mess and 3 medium size doelings were born healthy and alive. the doe was in labor for around 4 hours before we decided to pull her, when a bubble presented itself, but then half an hour later still no babies. Husband pulled her, he kept saying, " What the heck." " What on earth. " I thought we was going to pull out a 3 headed kid or something. They were just all different directions and it was hard to figure out what leg went with what kid and which end he had. 

2nd: 8 year old doe(the above does sister) had two nice sized bucklings and wouldn't let them nurse and kept getting up and down, an hour passed and no baby presented itself, so I went in to find legs, legs everwhere, I couldn't for the life of me figure out which end was which, At one point I had 3 legs sticking out of her. pushed them back in several times and kept trying, went and got binder twin, going on atleast a half an hour, my arm was going numb, the doe just laid there the whole time looking at me and pushing, When she pushed I wouldn't move my arm, I just tried to hold my position and when she didn't push, I would try to figure out what leg went with what end, finally I grabbed two legs, prayed, tied some twin to one pasturn and pulled. and pop out came the longest baby(boer/nubian) that I have ever seen. My kids named him Skyscraper. She got up and started letting the babies nurse. Took the 3rd baby another half hour or so to find his legs, but he was very strong and healthy. 

3rd doe: 6 year old doe. spent 3 days standing, never laying down, her belly started to look oddly low, I was sure something didn't seem right, She showed very little signs of labor, just stood there the hole time, looking distant, my daughter was the first to notice a slight little push from her, then we stood there and watched and every 10 to 15 minutes we noticed another little push, this went on for 2 or 3 hours then she laid down and pushed out a baby, never looked at it, never got up to do anything with it, I rushed over and got it out of the sac and got it going. She licked it when I put it infront of her. The second kid we had to pull a couple hours later, when we were sure she probably had atleast two if not three, both kids lived a buck and doe, and we put her on CMPK treatments, and other supplements. We decided she must have had been low on calcium. 

4th doe:this doe had to be pulled last year, after being in labor for several hours, we found 2 deformed kids, that we had to put down, breathing, but barely alive.and she had a runt of a doeling that survived. This year pretty much the same thing, no baby after a couple hours of labor, then one baby, smallish in size, She was huge, so we new there was more. We pulled her to find a nasty nasty deformed mummy. Smelled terrible. Then behind that we found one more live, but very weak and worn out kid. He made it and she weaned two buckling. This is the does last year and last chance. Those were her first two kiddings. So she is going on 3 1/2 years old. We copper bolused her this year. But I have my doubts that she could be that copper defiecient, we do keep out loose minerals. 

I can't remember who the 5th one was. 

I beleive some of our issues this year was due to having older does, we haven't culled any does out the last couple of years, plus out of the 19 does so far we have had 6 sets of triplets. Triplets most cetainly increase risk of something going wrong. Those older does can sure rais babies, We weaned 32 kids off of the first 16 does this year. The last 4 does are all yearlings. So far 3 of the 4 yearlings have had 5 live kids and one stillborn. 

I didn't feed any of my yearling any grain during most of their pregnancy, I had them on daily grain their entire lives up until 1 month after they were bred, (bred at 12 months old), then I took them off of all grain until 2 weeks before they were due to kid. I was worried about having a big single, our new buck is huge. So far the plan seems to be working, I am getting medium sized healthy kids, with no kidding problems. 

Some people say, well what if she is carrying triplets then you are underfeeding her. I am willing to risk that, You can normally save a small baby, but a lot harder to save your doe with a big kid stuck inside of her.


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