# Udder 911



## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Bonnie had kids yesterday.

Today her udder is hard as a rock, hot and I cannot get any milk out. The kids are starving.

What do I do. I'm going to go put her on the mlk stand and use warm wash clothes and try to massage her. But other than that what do I do?

I think Dels here has a product called tomorrow or something like that. If they have that, what do I do. If they DON'T have that what do I do.

I love Ms Bonnie so much I'm feeling pretty frantic right now. I've never in my life seen an udder this large and never this hard. I'm scared to death.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Do you have peppermint oil? A few drops with HOT compresses. Massage udder vigorously till your hands ready to die.
Then milk as much as you can & go for another round.
Yes Today works well but after you get as much milk as you can. This is going to take plenty of time.
Today for two or three days. In the meantime Vitamin C, I drenched a doe with 2 or 3 human tabs crushed in hot water.
Poor kids, Im sure you can pull her through this.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

okay, after an hour of warm wash cloths and massage I got out 3 ounces and fed each kid 1 ounce each.

I noticed something that might be making the problem worse. The kids are trying to nurse off the side that doesn't have milk come out, but the milk seems to be kind of building up in that udder? WHAT THE HECK can I do? Will the milk go down? Do I need to pull the kids so they don't keep bothering that side or put somehting yucky tasting on that udder?

If Today is not available can I give her any antibiotics or anything else? I will find some vit c, I'm sure I have something around here somewhere. Maybe emergen-c? I think I have that.

I will get some hot water and hot wash cloths and try to find that peppermint oil. I think I have some around here somewhere.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Still searching for peppermint oil but I did find 

"Badger Massage and body oil"
Olive Oil
Castor and Jojoba
Extracts of Cayenne, Ginger, Calendula, Rosemary, Cardamom, Lemongrass, Thyme and Sage.

Smells like it opens up my sinuses. Maybe that will work?


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Massage and milking is key; peppermint helps but not as critical as getting some milk out of there.

I give a little Milk of Magnesia along with Vit. C when dealing with udder issues/poss. mastitis.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

I'd hesitate on that oil. Peppermint oil is cooling; cayenne is heating (and tastes bad); ginger is heating, too.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

YES! Dels has "Today" in stock for $42.99 so hubby will pick it up on his way home from work today.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Also what about feed, she has all the alfalfa she wants both in hay form and pellets and she has sweet cob available. Should I cut back on milk producing feed till this is cleared up?


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Dayna try warm compressing her udder , along with massaging it .
The peppermint oil would help tons , but massage without it along with the warm compressing. Im going to look into links for you to get some peppermint oil. If not , I can send you some


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

You going to have to even out the sides of her udder. Milk the larger one till its even with the other. Im so sorry all this is happening to you.
But its something your going to fix , so don't sweat it


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Hey Nancy , i totally forgot you mentioned the HOT compresses , sorry  Use the HOT compresses Dayna , it'll work quicker for her


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

The other side won't have any milk come out at all, it's damaged from being torn on barbed wire. She's kidded twice since then and has fed her kids just fine with the one teat.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Awww , i forgot that part  Can you post a picture so we can get a visual ?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Yes I will go take lots of photos now of her udder and openings.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Okay, here is the udder. The kid is nursing on the side that does give milk:










The side that does give milk but is still barely coming out:










The side that was injured a few years back, sewed up, and does not give milk in any way shape or form since the injury:


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I found a foot rub that has peppermint and tea tree oil.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I also found some emergen-c joint health. 

Supplement Facts
Serving Size 1 Packet (9.3 g)
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Calories	20 
Total Carbohydrate	5 g	2%*
Sugars	5 g 
Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid, zinc ascorbate, chromium ascorbate)	333 mg	555%
Thiamin (as thiamine hydrochloride)	0.38 mg	25%
Riboflavin (as riboflavin 5’-phosphate sodium)	0.43 mg	25%
Niacin 5 mg	25%
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine hydrochloride)	10 mg	500%
Folic Acid 12.5 mcg	3%
Vitamin B12 (as cyanocobalamin)	25 mcg	417%
Pantothenic Acid (as calcium pantothenate) 2.5 mg	25%
Calcium (as calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, calcium pantothenate)	50 mg	5%
Phosphorus (as potassium phosphate, calcium phosphate, sodium phosphate)	38 mg	4%
Magnesium (as magnesium hydroxide, magnesium carbonate)	60 mg	15%
Zinc (as zinc ascorbate)	2 mg	13%
Manganese (as manganese gluconate)	0.5 mg	25%
Chromium (as chromium ascorbate)	10 mcg	8%
Chloride (as glucosamine hydrochloride)	82 mg	2%
Sodium (as sodium bicarbonate, chondroitin sulfate sodium, sodium phosphate)	110 mg	5%
Potassium (as potassium bicarbonate, potassium carbonate, potassium phosphate)	200 mg	6%
Glucosamine HCI 500 mg	†
Chondroitin Sulfate (as chondroitin sulfate sodium)	400 mg	†
Alpha Lipoic Acid	1 mg	†
Quercetin	1 mg	†
*Percent Daily Values (DV) are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.
†Daily Value not established. 
Other Ingredients: Fructose, citric acid, tangerine juice powder, natural tangerine flavor, maltodextrin, malic acid, silica, beta carotene, glycine, aspartic acid, tartaric acid, and cysteine hydrochloride


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I also have tea tree oil


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## Kiddskids (Sep 16, 2014)

It almost looks like there was something wrapped around it and cut of the circulation of her teat. But I think it something else


Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

tree oil works but the peppermint is better.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

hot compress, Massage udder vigorously, milk, keep it up every 1-2 hours, the foot stuff sounds ok but I would dilute it with some olive oil and then apply. I don't think dose of EmergenC would hurt but it does have lots of stuff so I would give -wait to see how she handles it. Also give B complex and Probios for support. I went thru this spring kidding this year.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I found them! I have peppermint, lavender and tea tree oil. Which works best and should I combine any?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I've been massaging vigerously and milking every hour or so and I'm only able to get 2-3 ounces out at a time.  Maybe the peppermint oil will help. So should I add a few drops to the hot water with the washcloths or massage it directly in?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

One more thing, her milk is not clumpy nor smell bad. I just can't hardly get any out. And you see the udder, there should be a TON of milk in there coming out.


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## Kiddskids (Sep 16, 2014)

I'm obsessed with this show called " The Incredible Dr. Pol " and I remember him having this farm call were this cow could milk on one side and it's call a " spider " he said if not taking care of it can cause infection. I don't know if this is what it is or if goats can get it but I thought hey it's worth a shot


Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

My goat can only milk on one side because she had an accident, ripped her udder open, it was sewed shut and that teat has never again had milk come out. She's had kids since that happened without mastitis (not on my farm but when I got her she was in milk and was fine).


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Dayna, is the teat twisted or does it just look like that in the photo? 

Use peppermint alone, a drop or two in hot water on a hot compress, otherwise diluted in a carrier oil. Lavender/tea tree don't help circulation and if it's mastitis, I doubt they'd absorb through udder skin.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I think it just looks like that because the kid had nursed on it and made it kind of "flat" and there is a hard spot right (well heck the whole udder is hard...) but it's hard just above the teat.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

She is congested. I would not use the Today unless you really find she has mastitis. Massage, massage and when you are tired more massage. The hot compresses, massage and peppermint oil (or bag balm or Vicks) is what is going to help and doing it frequently until all the congestion is gone.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I was just reading in that book "diseases of the goat" that was mailed to me and it looks like what they call "hard udder" and said it should soften by about 1 week. More reading online says that it can easily turn into mastitis if I'm not careful. 

So I have the Today on hand but if it's not bloody or clumpy I'm good right? So long as I keep it moving?


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

That is what worked for my doe but I did have to supplement the kids until the flow was better. Peppermint oil is best but dilute it with vegetable oil.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yep. Keep up the massaging and hang on to the Today.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Following...she looks like she's going to expode. Keep up the good work


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

I have a girl that just produces too much milk at freshening. If she singles, the kid can't drink enough and I have to be the "twin" for a while. Before I knew that - she blew up hard and painful and I had to work the milk out while she screamed in pain. She never ever tested positive for mastitis. 

I'm sure you know to check the kid's tummy to be sure she's getting enough milk. If you can keep the kid on the mom, the kid will help you release the milk. Newborns don't usually butt hard enough to give more than a "massage" but keep an eye on that.

I'm wondering about the shape of that teat. If the other half of the udder were there, the teat would be at a different angle. I'm wondering if that might make it harder for milk to flow? 

If she's improving with massage and drainage, I wouldn't give today yet. I would pull the kid if mom gets Today.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

She's got three kids on her. They are all butting as hard as they can but I'm milking her out as much as I can and giving it to the kids. So far she produced about 6 ounces under what they should have gotten so I supplemented with another does milk. Tomorrow should be better as I didn't know what to do right away so I could have gotten several more ounces at least in the morning if I'd been doing this all day.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I read that peppermint oil diluted with coconut oil is a great massage mixture for mastitis .


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Laura, I'll do that in the morning. Today/tonight I just did peppermint and lavender (for me) mixed in veg oil.

The kids were attacking me trying to get food from my arms, pants, shoes, etc so I gave them 2 ounces each of my frozen milk stash. I think they probably got enough from what I milked from her today, but I was worried, their tummies looked sunken so now they at least have a nice full tummy for bed time.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Do NOT give Today while the kids are on her! You don't want them drinking it! If you decide you have to treat her with it you'll have to pull them, and I wouldn't feed any of her milk until after the withdrawal period (I think 96 hours.)


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I won't leave the kids on her while she's on today.... I have not given it to her.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Dayna said:


> The kids were attacking me trying to get food from my arms, pants, shoes, etc so I gave them 2 ounces each of my frozen milk stash. I think they probably got enough from what I milked from her today, but I was worried, their tummies looked sunken so now they at least have a nice full tummy for bed time.


Aw! I have a soft spot for hungry babies! The ones that take supplemental feed and stay on mom are always extra special.

Your goats keep you busy! :hug::whatgoat: :hug:


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Hey Dayna , how are you doing today ? How's Bonnie and her kids doing ?

Why the heck do you have to be in Hawaii ??? Why can't you be somewhere in the states that i can get to you and give you a hand and a hug ????


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I just got up, I was up late massaging her udder and getting more milk out. I peeked out the window and shes standing so I'm sure she's okay for a few minutes. lol

I need to make up a schedule for today since I'm massaging her udder so much.

Massage Bonnies udder
feed kids
massage Bonnies udder
feed parrots
massage Bonnies udder
feed rabbits 

and so on and so on. lol I have that new doe Paprika that also needs special attention and extra feed. I was supposed to work today at the chicken farm but I texted her last night and took today off moving pens so I could be home more. Less money to spend on farm stuff but right now my time working on Bonnie is worth it's weight in gold I think.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

Sounds like CAE to me. Or whatever the disease is that is like CAE.

A doe usually gets it from dam to daughter thru the milk or colostrum.

When the doe comes fresh the udder will be rock hard, and only give a few squirts of seemingly normal milk. Gradually over the next few weeks the udder will soften and give more milk. But it will never give as much as the same amount from a non infected goat.

I always associated it with CAE, but in the Goat Medicine book it says something to the effect that it may not be actually CAE, but it disappears as a herd problem once you start instituting a CAE prevention program.

I had a couple does early on in my goatkeeping career with the same probem, but they were for sure CAE positive. However I have known of herds that tested 100% negative but had it because they still dam raised the kids.

The kids may or may not develop the problem if they are sucking. But if in the future you want to keep kids I'd raise them on pasteurized milk and heat treated colostrum.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I spoke to the person who has owner her through her whole life and she's NEVER had this problem with her udder before. I ran a CAE/CL/Johnes panel on her and they all came back negative. I ran it because of her terribly creaky knees, scared me a bit.

I'm wondering if I did something wrong with feeding her during labor/right after?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Somehow her udder is actually harder and bigger today.....  This is horrible.

Can the CAE tests be wrong?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I didnt read all reponses so forgive me if I repeat what been shared...I had a doe with horrid congested udder...I went out several times a day with warm compress, coconut oil with peppermint and massaged, It took a few weeks before we workedit all out..but reliefe was after about 5 days maybe 6...but I learned since that peppermint can decrease milk production....
I have read of some a few tricks..Ive not tried these so let us know if any of them work : ) I have a ewe right now congested...with the cayenne pepper be sure to wash it all the way off...dont want babys to get a hot mouth lol
vicks with success
Cayenne pepper in oil...massage to stimulate circulation
Clove Bud, Eucalyptus, Ginger, Lavender, Peppermint, Rosemary, Tea ...Tree and Thyme mixed in a balm....( I might try this one..)


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Peppermint can decrease milk production? Oh my gosh, I had no idea. She needs to still produce milk for the kids.... Now I'm more worried.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

we used it all the time because it does help reduce congestion...but since Ive been studying how to use Ess. oils with my animals...Ive learned alot lol...so yep..no more peppermint..BUT there are choices to increase production...like fennel...: )


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

For massaging the udder should I use tea tree or lavender then? I don't want to decrease milk production anymore. I just spent the last 30 minutes massaging her and only got 3 ounces out. Just enough for ONE baby bottle and there are three kids.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Lavender would be soothing.....Im having to massage my ewes udder...her is hard as a rock as well...UGH...I hate that for them...I know it much be uncomfortable...we are getting only squirts out of her..but know she musthave more because one baby stays pretty well fed...her other one, not so much so we are bottling her..We massage every few hours accept during the night...Im trying a blend of Do terras..On Guard which has the hot oils like Clove, Cinnamon as well as a few others..and Doterras Deep Rub which has Wintergreen, Camphor, Peppermint, Blue Tansy, Blue Chamomile, Helichrysum, and Osmanthus work together to soothe and relax muscles, I added Ginger which has anti-inflammitory benefits...and I added Lavender to sooth...Although the Deep Blue does have some peppermint in it...Shes not a milker so I figure its ok for a few times to loosen things up and once she loosens up some I will use a different oil...I blended this in a bit of olive oil and bees wax to make the balm..


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

This last time I massaged I got out 3 ounces but also I noticed the skin loosening up a bit. I was able to actually grab her udder a little bit. The tissues feel weird, like one of those stress balls with sand in them or something. Hard to explain. 

But I was happy to see parts of it loosening up, so that's progress!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yes sounds like progress to me!! : )


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yay... It's sounds like progress to me too


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Cathy , wouldn't Vitamin C tabs or even the chewables if she will take them be a good thing to give Bonnie ?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes.. I give all my milking girls 500 mgs orange flavored chewable vitamin c... They think it's a treat but we won't tell them it's good for them LOL!!


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I'll pick some Vit C chewables up tomorrow.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Has she been tested for cae? Sounds like the mastitic form. I've dealt first hand with it and this sounds exactly like it.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

yes, negative.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

If you have any new goats that have come in or the doe was with any car goats prior to you having her I'd retest her because cae could have been incubating with not a high inhibition percentage then. She may just now be showing symptoms. It is possible


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I will consider retesting her. I try to keep my expenses down. Sending off blood work from here is pretty spendy even when using WADDL.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Can you maybe get some Oxytocin to make her let down her milk? That, along with the massage, might get things moving for you. The longer she goes without the milk being removed, the harder and bigger the udder will be and the harder it will be to milk it out!!!


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Biotracking is only like $4 for cae test


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I saw users just like that at the sheepherding farm I worked at milking 800 ewes. They would come in everyday for a week or so after lambing with rock hard udders and no milk. Then one day you'd get some and the udder would loosen. Its called oppv in ewes but it is the same disease as cae


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

rebelINny said:


> Biotracking is only like $4 for cae test


She lives in Hawaii and everything cost more to ship in or out...


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

It's not the cost of the test only, it still has to be shipped via express mail from Hawaii.

Look, I know lots of folks can just spend lots of money whenever on blood work every time something comes up. I am not in that position.

I just don't always jump to the worst conclusion. Just because she has a hard udder once in her life, doesn't mean she has CAE. There are many causes of hard udders. I like to start with the simplest and most cost effective treatment and work my way up from there based on advice I get from this forum and through my own research and reading.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

janeen128 said:


> She lives in Hawaii and everything cost more to ship in or out...


Ohhh! My bad


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Dayna said:


> It's not the cost of the test only, it still has to be shipped via express mail from Hawaii.
> 
> Look, I know lots of folks can just spend lots of money whenever on blood work every time something comes up. I am not in that position.
> 
> I just don't always jump to the worst conclusion. Just because she has a hard udder once in her life, doesn't mean she has CAE. There are many causes of hard udders. I like to start with the simplest and most cost effective treatment and work my way up from there based on advice I get from this forum and through my own research and reading.


Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a pain in the neck, and of course I understand your position.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Kiddskids said:


> It almost looks like there was something wrapped around it and cut of the circulation of her teat. But I think it something else
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


Im thinking that could be scar tissue&#8230;..


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I grabbed some vit c tabs, the fruit flavored chewable kind but they only had 1000mg can she just have a whole one of those? I gave her one (because I figured 1 big dose won't hurt people do it all the time) or do I have to break them in half in the future? She really liked it!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Is she a mini? I forgot.. If not she can have 1000mgs sometimes my Bella take 2 if she gets her nose in there before I separate them out


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Shes a saanen, like almost 200 pounds.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Oh, then your good then Bella is a Saanen/ober mix...


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

Vit. C is water soluble so they pee out what they don't need.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

dreamacresfarm2 said:


> Vit. C is water soluble so they pee out what they don't need.


Cool, I didn't know that... Good to know


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## Summersun (Apr 24, 2014)

Is her udder getting any softer? Or easier to milk?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Not easier to milk, not producing very much but it is getting softer. I have to pick up some replacer tomorrow to use with what little frozen goats milk I have left.  I am not sure I'll breed Bonnie again unless I figure out a better solution. I like the polled gene she carries but it's causing her enough issues that I worry about her health.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Awe, so sorry she isn't getting much better... I guess since it's getting softer maybe there is a chance that it will flow free soon. Wish I could ship milk to HI, I definitely have enough of it...


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Replacer is not the worst thing in the world. I got some whole cows milk to mix in with Myras night time bottle for a few nights. She is currently drinking 2 9 ounce bottles at night. LOL so I figure half that can be cows milk. She's probably eating enough during the day to wean but she really really likes her bottles. 

I found out today Bonnie is 8 so she's really feeling it poor girl! I gotta get her on that horse joint supplement and maybe all around she'll be feeling better in a couple months.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Aww , I'm sorry Dayna , i hope the supplement helps with her pain 
Its so sad to see them feel any pain . Hopefully once she gets it in her system , it will make a huge difference 
If her udder is getting softer , then your work is paying off 
And God knows you've been working on it !


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Trickyroo said:


> Aww , I'm sorry Dayna , i hope the supplement helps with her pain
> Its so sad to see them feel any pain . Hopefully once she gets it in her system , it will make a huge difference
> If her udder is getting softer , then your work is paying off
> And God knows you've been working on it !


I just spent my whole paycheck on that supplement. $130! I figured I needed to make sure she gets the care she needs. She's older and deserves to be in less pain. Being a chronic pain sufferer myself this made the decision to purchase it a little easier. I talked to my hubby, I talked to the original breeder, I talked to my friend who is a dog/cat vet and everyone thought it was the best route to go.

My Dad said instead of a gift he'll deposit some cash in my checking account to spend on whatever I want. hehe aka goat stuff.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Neat dad Is Bonnie your profile pic? Just curious!


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

No, that's Cloud her sister.  And yeah Dad is pretty cool most of the time.


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## Summersun (Apr 24, 2014)

Are things getting any better with Bonnie's udder? Hope she is milking easier by now.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yeah, how is Bonnie's udder...?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

No. Still congested. I've got Annabelle giving me 4 cups of milk per day and that supplements them with milk. I've gone through all my freezer stores, so now my hubby picked up some Manna Pro kid milk. They seem to be handling it pretty well. I try to mix it at least 50% manna pro kid milk and 50% goats milk. Her udder is so hard. It at least has shrunk up a bit. I am still massaging it but I can never get more than 3 ounces out at a sitting. The kids do bump and milk on and off all day so they are getting something from her, but mostly I think they are getting fed by me.

I may breed her again someday, but ONLY if I have another doe take a couple weeks before her. Otherwise, she's going to just be a grandma.

She's on her joint supplements now, as well as probios, vit C, and red cell (she's VERY anemic). I'm sending in a fecal sample on Monday. i did a fecal myself and can't find anything so I'm sending it off to that online place MidAmerica for a second opinion. They use a different solution so maybe they'll see something I missed. If the red cell doesn't make a good difference soon I'll invest in some injectable pig iron.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but CAE can cause congested udders, and if she is on join medicine, this may be something worth looking into.

I hope she recovers real fast for you!


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

She's been tested and was negative. She's 8 and just developed arthritis in the last few months of her pregnancy.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

How long ago was she tested for CAE? You hate to even think about a negative goat turning positive, but it does happen. If she has CAE, joint supplements aren't going to do a whole lot. Hopefully this is just regular old osteoarthritis like my old fellow has.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

She was tested when I got her, about a year ago.


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