# What would you do with these hooves?



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Its "Separation", it is very common in NZ in wet weather. Her severe case started in winter. Its now late summer and still I just can't get it right.

The normal advice is to cut away the separated horn until its back to where it is still attached.

The problem is, in this case, there is so much!! If I was to trim that right back, most of her hoof wall would be gone and you can't do that. She needs that for structural support.

Its not painful, or troubling her at all. But its very large holes, and I want it finished off for good before winter and I'm not making any ground on it.

What would you do with these hooves? 3 of her hooves are affected.


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## Tapestry (Feb 5, 2015)

I don't know if it works in goats like it does in horses, but for my horse I would paint the coronet band with Vick's Vapor Rub. It increases blood circulation to the cuticle which strengthens and thickens the hoof wall. It also has ingredients that retard growth of some of those nasty bacteria and fungi that like to live in hoof cracks. In horses, it takes months to fully work, because the hoof wall does have to completely grow out, but for those issues that keep climbing up the hoof wall, I see a difference in a couple weeks.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

She needs more hoof trimmed. The healthy part. 

You are doing the right thing with the separated part, but with a proper hoof trim you will be, *hopefully*, the next trim away from removing all the separated hoof. I usually paint some strong iodine up in that hole of dead hoof. Coppertox is probably even better.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

That is very interesting! Thankyou for that unusual suggestion, I will try it. When the rain stops that is!


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

I can't trim the hoof back any further ... I'm down to little specks of almost blood showing, trimming as far as I dare to get rid of it. One more wafer off and I've got a gusher ...


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Barnes19 said:


> I can't trim the hoof back any further ... I'm down to little specks of almost blood showing, trimming as far as I dare to get rid of it. One more wafer off and I've got a gusher ...


Not where the hoof is separated. Everything else. You don't even have any pink showing. These feet are not level.


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

My doe had that happen when there was a tin of rain, and we're still fighting it to am extent because they were living in swamp ofa pasture for so long. We started using a hoof sealer for horses after trimming as much as possible and cleaning everything out with an iodine solution , which helped immensely.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

As Tim has already pointed out, they need to be level. You use either a rasp or a grinder & level em. 
I would go back over them maybe once a week or so & take off a little more each time.
Your case is not horribly severe.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

I'm going down to get another photo and see if I can show it better, because the camera just hasn't shown the pink area on this angle. 
Its not up the side of the hoof where the separation is I'm talking about, its on the frog itself, closest near the toe, its perilously close to bleeding.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Here's an old GS thread and a video that will help your trimming.

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/hoof-problems-174251/


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

Also, if you can't get her hooves level while trimming in one shot, you can try trimming every two weeks for a while just to get them level.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Barnes19 said:


> I'm going down to get another photo and see if I can show it better, because the camera just hasn't shown the pink area on this angle.
> Its not up the side of the hoof where the separation is I'm talking about, its on the frog itself, closest near the toe, its perilously close to bleeding.


It is mostly "heel" that I see needing trimmed. When she's on the trim stand do her toes touch the stand, or do they point up in the air? There can also be bruising that looks like it would bleed if you trimmed it, but it won't, and it needs to come off.

We discussed this in this post. http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/hoof-question-wall-taller-than-sole-174628/


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Interesting thread ... can't download video though ... I'm on dialup, 0.9-1.5 KBPS ... lol. Taken me 14 minutes to upload these photos ...

I have here several photos, first three are of her bad hooves, directly looking down on the sole to show the colour better.

The close areas have actually darkened in the time since trimming ... they look almost bruised now, before the specks were bright. So that is the stuff that will come off OK?? It starts as little blood pricks, in fact sometimes a tiny bit squeezes out when you trim next to it ... this won't actually bleed if I keep going?

The heel has plenty of room still if it has to go back. I had judged I couldn't remove more from the heel without setting her too far back on her heels ... was I wrong? Photos 4-5 are intended to show angle. (sorry she's not on a stand, she's not very well lead trained as such, she was a wild goat once, and the stand is 300 yards away ... )

Photo 6 is the finished result of my trimming on her other, best hoof.

Photos 7-8 is the finished result of my trimming on a goat who has strong healthy hooves (and admittedly jumps around less too).

How is the result on the last photos, the other goat?? I need to know where I'm going wrong, I learned off watching my father. I have my own farm and goats now, so I've been trimming hooves by myself for 15 years, and no-one else has ever seen my trimming. I never dreamed it might be wrong or I would have got a second opinion years ago ...


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Yes, generally, you need to take more heel.

In your first three photos, you are right. You are close to quick, but *only* at the toe area. I'd say you are about right at the toe, which is about the front 1/3 - 1/4 of the feet you are showing. It is sometimes difficult in picture to determine if we are looking at an inside or outside hoof, but in the first picture, you could easily take more heel on the inside hoof and more heel and outside wall on the outside hoof.

In your second and third picture, you have an opportunity to use your shears to take some of that muddy area out. The inside hoof on both the second and third pictures is about to separate if you don't get that trimmed down to white. 

Your third picture down is a perfect example of you trying to take more toe to get an angle that you perceive to be right. It's not. You can see in that third picture you are leaving another layer just behind the toe, and you are probably leaving three layers deep as you get back toward the heel. This is what I mean by not level. 

The fourth picture down, which is a side picture of a picked up foot, reveals a hoof where the trimmer is leaving way too much heel. If you were to take the proper amount of heel on this hoof, you would be well on your way to getting to even with that pocket that you want to get rid of. Having this much heel is hard on their pasterns. I can't tell much from your foot on the ground picture, but I wouldn't be surprised if the toe on this foot would point in the air if it was standing on a hard flat surface. 

Your sixth picture looks pretty good. I take a dremel tool to those walls that are showing early signs of separating. If I can, I try to get all the black removed. The hoof it this sixth picture is also a perfect candidate for the grinder to take that heel down even flatter. 

Picture seven, too much heel. If you can get that heel down you will begin to draw even with those pockets of separation that are about to form. 

Your final photo reveals a hoof with too much heel. The dead giveaway is how the heel is curving forward toward the toe. The heel should be close to a straight drop off from the back of the hoof. 

I learned these things the hard way myself. What some people try to do is correct the natural angle of the the goats hoof to make a steeper angle. Often trying to imitate a drawing they have once seen of a perfect goat hoof. They say a baby goat is born with a perfect angle. I agree with this, minus the fluffy parts. The angle of the hoof should match the angle of the pastern. 

Are these Boer goats? These feet look a lot like the feet on my boers. I too live in very wet conditions, so I know exactly what you are going through. I'd like to thank you for starting this thread, as reading and commenting on threads like this always motivate me to get out of the house and start trimming feet!


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Its getting dark now, but I'll go back down tomorrow morning and redo it when I've got your verdict on the heel/toe angle, and whether the blood areas are likely to be safe to trim past. I'll take a board down this time so I can stand her on it and take a better look.

I've been studying the photos, as opposed to the live wriggling goat, and comparing to those threads, and I notice I've done a much messier job on the affected hooves, I've been focused on the separation and only roughed out the rest.

Looking at it, I'm thinking the other goat, the sound hoofed one, needs quite a lot more off the heel?


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ah ok you've replied while I wasn't looking!! Hang on, I'll read that first ... possibly disregard a lot of the previous post ...


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ok Thankyou that is very clear. I can see what you're talking about. I am on my way back down now before dark. 

I've only time to do the one goat tonight, but if I can get that right I will repeat the process with the rest of the herd tomorrow.

No they're not boer, the one with the bad separation is Kiko type, and the one in the last two photos is Nubian/Saanen cross.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

<Removed by clueless person that wrote it.>


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Lol.  Another post before reloading??

How do these look?
In seeing these new photos, I think the hoof in the first three could do with a touch more off the inside heel?
The hoof in the fourth photo has one very long toe ... its the one showing quick, the other toe was nowhere near it and it came off when I went to remove a bit of separation on the inside edge. A bit strange?


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Yes I just saw the separation on the inside of photo one, and possibly six, will come off with a small cut out. (Don't know how I missed it before seeing the photo).

Is it safe to remove more of the hollow wall when the separation runs very high up the hoof? I have one there that seems to end about 3/4 of the way up, and some at halfway, I haven't dared go that high, if that was all trimmed off, would her hoof be likely to bend without it?


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

YES!:hi5:


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Now to repeat the process with 7 more goats tomorrow!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Barnes19 said:


> Yes I just saw the separation on the inside of photo one, and possibly six, will come off with a small cut out. (Don't know how I missed it before seeing the photo).
> 
> Is it safe to remove more of the hollow wall when the separation runs very high up the hoof? I have one there that seems to end about 3/4 of the way up, and some at halfway, I haven't dared go that high, if that was all trimmed off, would her hoof be likely to bend without it?


I do "nip" it out, and sometimes fairly high up the hoof. They end up looking like the hoof in your second, third and fourth new pictures. It bums me out, but I think it's good to relieve that area to keep it from packing with muck again. The goats usually travel just fine. These hooves can and do get back to normal. You now keeping those heels in check is going to help prevent these events as well. Here's to some drier weather. :sun:


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Those are great instructions and pics! Thanks to both of you for this thread.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

A grand total of 5 out of 8 goats have now been re-trimmed to an improved angle.

The last one was my most difficult one, one of the "Throws herself on the ground thrashing and screaming" sort, so I've paused and come inside for breakfast (its 12:40 PM), nurse my back, and apply bandages. (several of them Lol)

Somehow the words "Look the only person who's been cut so far is me" don't reassure Rita.

I'm also going to go back to the original goat, take a little more of a notch out of some of that separation, and apply copper, its stopped raining so far today.

I have some "Before and after" photos. The hoof I showed you from the other goat before, when stood on a hard surface, looked like she was wearing clogs! Much better now.

Pic 1 ... I think this is a good angle, am I right?
Pic 2 ... Gosh look how much had to come off the heels here!
Pics 3&4 are before and after shots.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

I am beginning to think ... I will be very interested to see whether keeping the correct angle will help prevent footrot and separation from now on.

I'm also thinking of the sore ankles I had last winter ... obviously 3 goats don't sprain ankles together, so I researched and discovered it was excess oxalic acid from the frost damaged Kikuyu (tropical african grass), and that it would clear up with new pasture and calcium supplementation ... which it did, quickly, to my relief. But I wonder whether it was made worse by the angle of the hooves ...


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I'm so proud! You are on your way!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Look how nice & flat the first one is!arty:


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## Tapestry (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks for this thread! I have coquina boulders that my goats have always played on and kept their hooves very nice, but my new ones don't keep their own hooves trimmed, so I'm going to have to learn to do it. I guess there is no day like tomorrow to get started!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Best hoof trimming thread yet


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

All done now ... I'm all over buck smell though lol.

The hooves look a lot happier to me, and their pasterns much more relaxed. I'm very pleased with the result. I'd always thought they were just really strong blocky hooves, I never dreamed I was forcing them square. I'd just been doing what my father did ... trim back the wall, and trim off any high pieces of sole to make it flat. Too flat, by all accounts.

I don't recall whether I ever payed much attention to the trimming instructions in my goat books, but if I did, they would have sent me wrong ... one has one of those square drawings you mentioned, and the other says there is usually more to come off the toe than the heel. Another case of not believing everything just because its in a book!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Stacey someday soon I will post pics of a doe who has been with the buck since dec & her feet have not been done since then. Im sure she has funky pockets.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well I can't wait to try this out. I think I leave to much heal too trying to get that perfect degree thing. I have one I've been working on and as mentioned the toe doesn't touch the ground like it should and I've been taking more off the toe.....hers were badly long, now I can't wait to get her back in


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

A lot of goats do grow more toe and very little heel. My Saanen doe grows, what seems like, no heel. Often with these you will see just a little callus on the heel that needs nipped off. I have goats that grow more heel on their front feet and more toe on their back feet. If you can ever get that youtube video to run, the young lady in that video is mostly dealing with goats that grow more toe. She's good. It's a good video. 

It's sort of counter intuitive to think you are actually "standing them up" by taking more heel, but when their heels get over grown they can't get their foot down flat. I figured this out when I first started using the grinder on my boers. I couldn't figure out why the toes were pointing in the air after I trimmed. It didn't make sense that I was trimming toe, yet it looked like they were now on skis. When I started using the grinder and applying equal pressure to the entire foot, I noticed (with these "skiers") that I was grinding mostly heel and the more I took off, the flatter they stood. Once you figure out "the trick", you then have a better understanding of what "level" is, which will help you get your toes right as well. 

I believe that drawing that we've been talking about has resulted in more bad hoof trims than anything perpetrated on the goat world.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok I didn't do the one bad one but I did so others and usually, like you said about that flap on the heal, well usually I just only take that off and leave them be but I worked on the heals a bit more and sure enough they look way better!!! If there.wasn't pictures in this topic I might have sworn you were wrong lol


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Here's one of Miss's separated toes now. I've taken a notch out, brushed it out thoroughly, and done CopperSol. That was yesterday, I need to redo the copper today it looks like its mostly washed off.

I think it looks really good, and the hoof is really hard there so I don't think it'll have any problems with bending, as long as I keep it trimmed down every week or two until its back to normal.

It looks like it'll really clean up well now, her hooves are miles better already. Thank you very much for all your help and education, that was great!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Barnes19 said:


> Here's one of Miss's separated toes now. I've taken a notch out, brushed it out thoroughly, and done CopperSol. That was yesterday, I need to redo the copper today it looks like its mostly washed off.
> 
> I think it looks really good, and the hoof is really hard there so I don't think it'll have any problems with bending, as long as I keep it trimmed down every week or two until its back to normal.
> 
> It looks like it'll really clean up well now, her hooves are miles better already. Thank you very much for all your help and education, that was great!


You seem to be a natural. Soon you will be helping me.


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## Noah's oak (11 mo ago)

nancy d said:


> As Tim has already pointed out, they need to be level. You use either a rasp or a grinder & level em.
> I would go back over them maybe once a week or so & take off a little more each time.
> Your case is not horribly severe.


Even if the foot is sore?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

This thread is from 2015. If you are having foot problems, I would suggest starting your own thread.


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