# Copper Bolus question...



## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Is it ok to give a copper bolus as a preventative measure? Like if I'm not sure whether they "need" it or not? Also, last time I gave one, I had a doe who was really sick, and I made it up into a "treat ball" with oats, raisins, and molasses. It was the cattle type bolus, and I think I ended up getting more of it on me than down her. Are their any better ways to give it to them? How does the bolus gun method work? It looks pretty awful to me. I'd be worried they would choke.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

A couple of my does love to eat marshmellows, so I break a large marshmellow open and pour it in the middle and and squash the marchmellow back together and they eat it in just a few seconds, not much chewing. 
We also have had luck with taking a 6 cc syring, cut the entire tip end off of it. Pour in a cc of mollasses, pour in the measured copper rods, top with more molasses and squirt into the back of their mouth, Most of them don't seem to chew much. We also use the balling gun. but I have to say, we have a lot of experience and still don't really care to use it. But we have done our entire herd of 20 adults that way as well. 
It will NOt mix in a drench and go through a regular syringe or a drenching syringe ,It settles out and wont go through the tip.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Frosty1 said:


> Is it ok to give a copper bolus as a preventative measure? Like if I'm not sure whether they "need" it or not? Also, last time I gave one, I had a doe who was really sick, and I made it up into a "treat ball" with oats, raisins, and molasses. It was the cattle type bolus, and I think I ended up getting more of it on me than down her. Are their any better ways to give it to them? How does the bolus gun method work? It looks pretty awful to me. I'd be worried they would choke.


The cattle size bolus should not be given in it's entire form. The bolus is opened up and the rods weighed out and each goat should be dosed at 2 grams per 40lbs, at this rate a 12.5 gram cattle boluse will be enough to dose 6- 40 lb goats.... Giving copper bolus shouldn't hurt as the rods are a slow release way to get copper into the system. They are ineffective if chewed as they need to stick in the gut lining, not be digested like food.

I use an ivermectin paste wormer tube to stick the small 2gram capsules into, a dab of probiotic paste then push it as far back in the mouth that I can, depress the plunger and yes, I've had my goats chew them and some who just swallow.


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Ok, great! As long as they are okay to give preventatively, I'll order some!  I found some goat sized capsules on Santa Cruz biotechnology, and the look sooo much easier to give than the cattle size ones! They come in 4gram capsules for the adults though. Which would only be enough for an 80 lb goat. Is that enough for a standard size goat? Thanks!!


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## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

I think I go 1cc / 50lbs. You can measure out using a syringe.
I usually use a filled #1 capsule for every 25lbs.

I make an animal cracker sandwich out of mine. In the middle is a little honey with the capsule. If I've got one that just spits out the capsule all the time, I sprinkle the rods on the cookie. Some will get chewed but it's better than nothing.

I always give copper when a new goat comes in and then they are on my maint program.

HTH,


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Frosty1 said:


> I found some goat sized capsules on Santa Cruz biotechnology, and the look sooo much easier to give than the cattle size ones! They come in 4gram capsules for the adults though.


I got my order of copper boluses from Sant Cruz a couple of days ago 
and bolused all my goats yesterday. I should have reviewed this thread
before I started.  I tried to come up with plan to give the rods without
the capsule by altering a syringe and mixing with probios and that was a
dismal failure. I see I should have tried a 6cc syringe. I tried a 3cc.
The empty ivermec paste tube is an idea I didn't try that I might next time.
Anyway, I decided to man up and just bolus the boluses. I found a small
plastic balling gun at Dells. My usual feed store didn't have any and my 
feed lady acted like they don't even make such a thing anymore, so when
I found one for $2 at Dells, it was pretty cool. What I did is squirt a little
Probios in the champer of the gun and stuck the pill into that. That helped
to hold the pill in place while I wrestled my does. I didn't get a goat to
swallow one until the third attempt. I had to get pretty deep down their
throat to achieve success. It was somewhat invasive. I gave them all 
big pets and back scratches when it was over. They all seem fine today
and seem like they still like me, so I guess all is good.


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

Ok dumb question here-I have had goats for 12 years and never given copper bolus-why is this necessary? Thanks in adavance!


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

mnblonde said:


> Ok dumb question here-I have had goats for 12 years and never given copper bolus-why is this necessary? Thanks in adavance!


Well, if you aren't having any problems it isn't needed. We were having problems with barberpole worms.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

mnblonde said:


> Ok dumb question here-I have had goats for 12 years and never given copper bolus-why is this necessary? Thanks in adavance!


Sometimes its not 100% necessary however adding copper can greatly help a goat thrive to 100% of their of their potential. If a goat is lacking in copper they will not grow as fast, have brittle hair, parasite problems and many more things.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Like Liz said, if they chew the cooper rods they will not work that is why it is best to NOT put it in the food, they wuill chew it and that is just wasting your money.

Liz, I love the way you do it. I purchased a Bolus gun that is perfect for me.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I just cut off the tip of a 3cc syringe. I give them 1cc per 60 lbs. Then put a dab of Probios on the top to hold it in. Then I put the syringe as far back in their mouth as I can than push the plunger. Like Liz, a few rods may get chewed but most get swallowed right down.


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## rosti (Feb 1, 2011)

I break a capsule open and measure out how much I need on my kitchen scale. I then mash a banana to pulp and mix the copper in it. They slurp it right down without chewing whereas I have heard the chew the marshmallow.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I do it by weight not volume. It is 1 gram per 22#. 
I always give it in closed caps and weigh my goats to dose correctly.


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

ok no worms like that here in MN-how do they get copper? I feed the best alfalfa i can buy for my girlies-I am guessing that we don't have the need for copper here-the TSC I worked at and that my BF still works at doesn't carry it- I know we have plenty of selenium .... learning SO MANY things here!


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

mnblonde said:


> ok no worms like that here in MN-how do they get copper? I feed the best alfalfa i can buy for my girlies-I am guessing that we don't have the need for copper here-the TSC I worked at and that my BF still works at doesn't carry it- I know we have plenty of selenium .... learning SO MANY things here!


A good mineral should have a good amount. I think it was you that I read in another thread your goats won't eat minerals? Sometimes you just need to find one they like. I currently feed my goats a cattle mineral because they don't like the goat one my feed store carries. It actually has more good stuff in there for them than the goat. If your not sure about it just copy the tag and post it on here. Someone with more experience in mineral needs should help you. Goats *MUST* have loose minerals available because they need them. I feed top horse quality alfalfa with up to 22% protein and a good grain but I still have deficient goats if I don't keep their minerals out at all times.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

rosti said:


> I break a capsule open and measure out how much I need on my kitchen scale. I then mash a banana to pulp and mix the copper in it. They slurp it right down without chewing whereas I have heard the chew the marshmallow.


 Just wanted to clarify that the Santa Cruz boluses are made for goats, not
cattle like copasure. So you don't have to measure anything. They come
in two sizes. 2g and 4g.


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

_Xymenah not mine! they have access all the time to a Billy Block and a Dumor Goat block -Nice to hear that I dont need it! Thanks so much!_


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

My bolus's came in the mail today!!!! Question: There are cows in the same field with the goats, therefore there are also cow minerals. They also get free choice goat minerals in their stall at night. Can I still give the copper bolus even with the minerals? Thanks!!


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Bump


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Frosty1 said:


> My bolus's came in the mail today!!!! Question: There are cows in the same field with the goats, therefore there are also cow minerals. They also get free choice goat minerals in their stall at night. Can I still give the copper bolus even with the minerals? Thanks!!


 We keep out minerals and we copper bolus twice a year.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

No TSC or feed stores near me sell Copper yet my goats do need it supplemented. 

Each area is different in its natural levels of copper and the feeds and minerals you supply play a role in amounts needed as does your water supply. There are certain other elements that block the absorbtion of copper. It is a good idea to check with your county extentsion office and see how your area measures up and then analize your goats other sources of intake to decide if your goats need it in bolus form. Mine do and most get it 2 times a year some even 3.


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Ok, awesome!!! Thanks!!


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Wellll.... I gave the boluses yesterday morning, and it went so-so. :/ I was using the syringe method, but I think I cut too much of the syringe tip off, so it ended up getting chewed a bit and not all of it went in. But two of them actually went really well!!  Thanks for all of the help guys!!!!


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Update, one of my does is very rough coated etc. Since I just bolused her on Oct 23rd and she is due to kid in a month, can I still rebolus her? If it is not copper deficiency after all, will she still be ok with the bolus? Thanks!


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## mlktrkdrvr (Dec 7, 2012)

*read the whole post- still confused*

I read through this whole thread and I still wonder if my goats need bolused. I have 3 does, 1 kid and 1 wether. 2 of my does have scratched the hair off their shoulders. I dust them with DE twice a week and have dusted their barn also. I do not see mites or lice at all, but I do see skin flakes. They are dewormed herbally using Molly's herbals. So I was told it could be copper deficiency. They do have loose cattle mineral out at all times. Open to any ideas. thanks


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Bump


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

sweetgoats said:


> Like Liz said, if they chew the cooper rods they will not work that is why it is best to NOT put it in the food, they wuill chew it and that is just wasting your money.


Copper Oxide is safe to use just as a top feed spreading the needles over their food and allowing them to eat it. The old myth about chewing causing it not work properly is just that -- a myth. There are several University articles that have researched the effectiveness of copper oxide needles and show that it can be used in feed and as a top feed without bolus. Same with placing the needles in marshmallow or peanut butter or whatever else. It works!


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

This is my opinion and my opinion only. Feeding the bolus in food will work but because the rods are of a specific size they last a specific time. When chewed the rods get broken and therefore dissolve at a faster rate. Some have said when you bolus as a whole pill the rods go to the correct stomach, huh? Anything given by mouth is going to go to the same place first. Whether given in a marshmallow or a gelatine pill its still going to to the first stop along the road which would be the rumen, I don't believe the gelatine is going to know its not supposed to dissolve here. After the rumen the rods travel on to the reticulum, the honeycomb looking 2nd stomach. In my opinion most of the rods would settle here and stay for a while. Those that continue on the journey make a stop in omasum, or 3rd stomach. Many nutrients are off loaded and absorbed here while the water is being separated out. Finally we get to the final destination abomasum or true stomach. How many rods do you think have made it this far? not too many in my opinion. Its said that the act of swallowing the pill is bypassing 3 stomachs and heading straight to the abomasum by closing off a few flaps. IF this were true then when we give meds for bloat it would never get to the rumen because it would bypass it. I honestly don't think the goats digestive tract knows the difference between food and meds, or bolus pill and cookies. It all gets where its supposed to go in the process. Please remember that this is only my opinion and I don't have a degree in rocket science or goat stomachs.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Here is the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health 
article on Copper Oxide as a top feed and showing their is no difference in effectiveness - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19945224

Here's a good article from a friend Deborah Niemann Boehle on Copper Oxide - http://nigeriandwarfgoats.ning.com/forum/topics/pale-eyelids
"The first website to popularize the idea of copper boluses was Saanendoah, and they claimed that you had to bolus rather than top dress because it would change the specific gravity of the copper rods if they were chewed; however, it is impossible to change specific gravity like that, so whoever wrote that didn't know what they were talking about, but it got repeated a LOT. Some people have said on one forum or another that they were worried the copper wouldn't be timed release if the goats chewed it. However, they were assuming goats could actually bite those rods into smaller pieces. No one questioned this until a couple years ago. I posted a study a couple months ago that studied the efficacy of using COWP in boluses vs top dressing, and there was no difference in efficacy of the COWP as a dewormer whether it was top dressed or bolused. Someone else posted on here at least a year ago about a goat owner who had their vet xray their goat a week after consuming COWP in a marshmallow, and the COWP was still in the rumen. So, bottom line is that a lot of people still insist that you need to bolus, but they're basing that on supposition and old assumptions. Hard research shows that it doesn't matter. If you want anecdotal evidence though -- I've been top dressing for more than a year now, and my goats are healthier than ever. And if you really pay attention to how goats eat, they barely chew their food anyway"

Here's the test results - XRays - showing the absorption rate for copper oxide through feed as mentioned in the above post - http://www.goatspots.com/copper.html


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Frosty1 said:


> Update, one of my does is very rough coated etc. Since I just bolused her on Oct 23rd and she is due to kid in a month, can I still rebolus her? If it is not copper deficiency after all, will she still be ok with the bolus? Thanks!


Could we get back to my question please?


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Yes, you can re-treat with the copper oxide. I have at times retreated within a month of initial treatment without any issues.


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks! Even if it turns out she wasn't severely deficient?


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Severely deficient would show signs of fish tale, hair loss especially around the face, ears and tail, abortions, infertility, early births along with the coat changes. Also if you have sulpher(sp?) as a mineral additive or free choice, it blocks proper absorption of copper.

As for toxicity - Copper sulfate is the one you have to worry about as it is easily overdosed due to its quick absorption time. I have never heard of any case of toxicity with Copper Oxide as it is a slow release product. Here is a great article on the use of Copper http://nigeriandwarfgoats.ning.com/forum/topics/copper-1?id=4125126:Topic:2775&page=7#comments

It has been three months since your first dose of copper with this goat, even if the goat was not severely deficient another treatment will not hurt her. You may want to check her zinc levels though as well because it can also cause the rough coat look.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If it makes you feel better, we give seep the same copper oxide rods. Never had a problem with them.


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Ok, great! Thank you! Where would I find the zinc?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You want to be careful with zinc. If you give too much, then you have to give more copper to compansate. You never want more then 3 times the amount of zinc then copper. Unless the goat has a metabolic issue. It can take a while for the copper level to built up a storage in the liver and start metabolising properly. It depends on how long the storage has been used up causing the animal to use directly from the blood. 
Most mineral mixes have plenty of zinc. Give it some time to see if the copper is going to work before adding something else. If you add too many things at once, you never know which one worked.
Too much iron also effects copper levels.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

I agree with goathiker. Just wait and see how the copper does. Sulfur can also effect the absorption of copper and there should be at least a 6:1 ratio of copper to molybdenum for proper absorption. But don't worry about all that right now. Just wait a couple months and let the copper take affect.


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## Calmom (Mar 21, 2020)

Is is ok to empty the bolus capsule into a bit of grain in hopes they get it all down? Will is harm them at all? Thank you


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## Carl47 (Jan 29, 2018)

Calmom said:


> Is is ok to empty the bolus capsule into a bit of grain in hopes they get it all down? Will is harm them at all? Thank you


I do it I make a peanut butter sandwich and sprinkle w copper I also stay right with them just Incase they spit it out tho And I shove it back in! So far so good tho Good luck!!


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