# Who stays and who goes?



## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Well this is our second offical year raising boer goats and I was wondering how everyone decides who stays and who goes. We really only need about 6 does. That is enough for my nieces to pick threw their kids to find 4-H animals and then a few for me to sell and make money. Now the problem is who stays and who goes. We have 6 does and 3 doelings. I have 3 that I have to keep. Taylor and Kerigan's show does from last year and C'arra has a doeling from this year. C'arra can't show till next year but that is her doe. I think once the kids get more into having the best show animals we can afford they might start to part with their first does. Which I don't think are bad does but not top show does. I will need to possibly sell 3 does in order to get back down to 6. I actually am trading 1 doe for another buck. This buck will be too young to breed with this year so next year when the doelings are ready to breed I will use him. My question is how do you decide? I am sure it is really easy for some of you but for me I am having issues. All the does have clean either 2x2 or 1x1 teats, to me it doesn't matter if they have 2 or 4 teats as long as they are clean(I know relics you hate the 4 teats).


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## GoatGirlMO (Aug 13, 2010)

I'd say it's a very personal method... in our herd, we like to keep it simple. If the doelings are better than the adult does, the doelings stay. We look at:

Teat structure
Bites
Pigment
Conformation
Bone/frame size
Growthiness
Hardiness 
Fencing ease/ease of handling (not so important until we had one doe that could absolutely get out of any barrier... her doe kids were the same way). 
Family history of all the above

We try to cull or sell the bottom 20% of our herd each year... so we look at records and see who needed to be wormed the most last year and cull those... then we look at the smallest or most incorrect doe and send her on. If one sticks out in our minds in a bad way, she goes. For example, we have a hardy doe who is really nicely built... but she is just a slow, slow, slow grower. Not going to work for our herd, so she's out. We're trying to create a hardy/resistant herd as well as a meaty, strong herd. 

Additionally, we are moving towards having a herd of mainly half/three-quarter sisters in order to create a consistant herd. So if all else is equal, we pick the does who are most related to the rest of the herd.

We each also have a favorite that stays no matter what, until we personally make the decision to send them on. That makes it easier to rotate goats through. We get attached to each one, but we have to make decisions in order to improve the herd.


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## Kimmerz Cali Kidz (Apr 30, 2011)

I like this, sounds like a good program


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Same problem here Roger... who stays, and who goes? We have 5 does, and 5 doelings. We originally planned to only keep 3 doelings...hubby is acting like he wants to keep most of them. BUT, I want to buy 1-2 nice fullblooded registered does soon or at least some nice big boned mamas so we can at least have 50% doelings.
Our does are crossbred - All 5 of them had twins this year - 1 buck & 1 doe each. We're pleased with their kids....a couple of our does have udders that aren't perfect, but they are milk machines for their kids and their teats work just fine, and out of the 4 kids from them only one had a split teat that might be looked down on if she were to ever go into a show ring.
Our girls are family, my kids are totally attached.... 

But yet I want to invest in some nicer breeding does... It's tough. If we had a few more acres it wouldn't be tough at all.


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

RPC said:


> (I know relics you hate the 4 teats).


I don't hate 4 teated goats, I own 2 that are 2x2 but _Prefer_ 1x1. If you cull based on only teat structure you may be clipping your best does. I have bred for 1x1 for years and _My_ best does are 1x1. The only ONLY advantage they have is Now the ABGA has changed the Standard to give 1x1 _Preferred_ status. If you don't plan to show your goats it would then make little difference BUT if you are building a show herd then it might be a consideration. Although, right now, teat structure is a low on the score sheet I see it moving up quickly, in bucks too, simply because the ball has started to roll....Question: If you had all clean 1x1 goats that when bred nearly always threw clean 1x1 kids...Could you, if the standard changed or Your herd goal changed, Buy a buck that would start to give you Something Other Than 1x1 kids, and probably by your next set of kids? Now ask the converse...Could you change your teat structure to 1x1 if you had paid No Attention to teat structure for years simply by adding a new buck? That sounds like it could be Elitism...Alot like the elitism that Certain Registries LIKE...If certain board members/friends/$$ have been gearing their herds in a certain direction for years, It would be easy to change the rules to eliminate "The Lessors"....Just saying...
....SOOO cull hard. If you don't trust your eye feed the kids out until they are 7-8 minths old, pick the best/sell the rest...Its rough to come to the conclusion that ALL the kids from a specific kid crop are JUNK and sell them all or slaughter them, I did several times...BUT you will thank yourself later


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Thank you all for your input. We decided this year to raise the doelings and show them in the fair. If any of them were placed poorly by the judge because of flaws we did not see then they will be they will be finding new homes if not then they will stay and we will breed the adults this fall and let them all kid. Then from there decide who gets cut from the herd. Since we will not be breeding the doelings this fall we will have more time to see how they grow. I must say last year Taylor's doe got docked real hard at the show and I was really confused because she was the one doe they judge did not really talk about poorly. But she was the only colored doe in the class. After talking to some people and watching all the colored does put low to last in the classes I found out she put traditionals above the rest if at all possible. So that was disheartening. We ended up keeping her and she may not be the best doe we have because she is a little short bodied. But when crossed with paintball she threw the longest doe we have. I am really happy with the kid she produced this year and can not wait to see how she does at the fair. Hopefully with in the next couple years I will be able to eye ball each kid with in the first weeks and know if they will be keeper. I am not sure why but it has never been a problem for me to sell pigs or cattle but these goats get me every time and I want to keep them all.


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

RPC said:


> ... But she was the only colored doe in the class. After talking to some people and watching all the colored does put low to last in the classes I found out she put traditionals above the rest if at all possible...


I have also found that to be true. It seems like some judges Do Not like solid color goats. But if you carefully read the standard it says a boer goat with a white body and a red head is preferred but other colors patterns are allowed. Also a traditional goat is registered as "correct" under the color section while all other colors are SCV or CV. Through the grapevine I have heard that the next change the ABGA may make is to Emphasize that trads are Preferred...Just a rumor now but it would make sense, based on past decisions....We have a solid red doeling in our string this season, the First solid red doe we have shown...So hopefully her structure outweighs her color, if necessary


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## jodief100 (Jan 15, 2011)

I run a market meat herd. I do not show, I sell a few to 4-H kids but the majority are sold for someone's table. What I keep is based on pure numbers. I weigh all kids at birth. They are weighed again at weaning (90 days). Moms are weighed at weaning. I keep kids from the does that have the best lbs of kid weaned/lb of doe. I keep track of this over the years so scores are based on a does' history, not just that year. I look at teat structure, mouth structure, hardiness as well but only as a "veto" point. I have noticed and current research confirms my observations that if you keep your best growing kids from you best producing does, than you will most likely be keeping your most disease and parasite resistant animals. Does that are sick or have worms do not produce as much milk so they do not produce big kids. 

Recently I joined the Kentucky Herd Improvement Program. I send my numbers to Dr Andries at KSU, along with some additional information such as sex of kids, age of doe, twin, triplet, single birth etc. He has developed a program where he takes that information and can determine which does are producing the most lbs of kid for what they consume. The program is free and you do not have to live in Kentucky to join. He crunches the numbers for you and ranks all your does and bucks if you send him sire data as well.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Through the grapevine I have heard that the next change the ABGA may make is to Emphasize that trads are Preferred...Just a rumor now but it would make sense, based on past decisions....


 May I ask ...where you are getting your info from? Sounds like... you are being misinformed.... and nothing has been officially decided yet.... :scratch:



> I don't hate 4 teated goats, I own 2 that are 2x2 but Prefer 1x1. If you cull based on only teat structure you may be clipping your best does. I have bred for 1x1 for years and My best does are 1x1. The only ONLY advantage they have is Now the ABGA has changed the Standard to give 1x1 Preferred status. If you don't plan to show your goats it would then make little difference BUT if you are building a show herd then it might be a consideration. Although, right now, teat structure is a low on the score sheet I see it moving up quickly, in bucks too, simply because the ball has started to roll....Question: If you had all clean 1x1 goats that when bred nearly always threw clean 1x1 kids...Could you, if the standard changed or Your herd goal changed, Buy a buck that would start to give you Something Other Than 1x1 kids, and probably by your next set of kids? Now ask the converse...Could you change your teat structure to 1x1 if you had paid No Attention to teat structure for years simply by adding a new buck? That sounds like it could be Elitism...Alot like the elitism that Certain Registries LIKE...If certain board members/friends/$$ have been gearing their herds in a certain direction for years, It would be easy to change the rules to eliminate "The Lessors"....Just saying...
> ....SOOO cull hard. If you don't trust your eye feed the kids out until they are 7-8 minths old, pick the best/sell the rest...Its rough to come to the conclusion that ALL the kids from a specific kid crop are JUNK and sell them all or slaughter them, I did several times...BUT you will thank yourself later


 Relic(s) we have already been through this discussion.....I have already mentioned to you... in others posts as well as this one now....that you can't keep trying to push or scare breeders into going 1x1 clean teat structure only.......you can't keep doing that....  
To me ...as well as many others... It is based on a breeders preference....and standards of the Associations...to how many teats or how the structure should be..that best suits their herds... :doh: 

This is what I was told by someone on the commitee


> This is probably the most politically charged committee I have ever been a member of.
> 
> Currently, based on the survey, the verbage will read something like "no more than two orifices per side" meaning up to two teats. We may be working on new teat diagram per the request of the ABGA board of Directors. The insistance of 1X1 came from the Board of directors. That is one of many reasons the Breed Standards committee paid out of their own pockets to place this survey out to all ABGA members. The Board of Directors was trying to make the decision without the members input.


Remember....at a ABGA show...An animal that has 1x1 clean teats... isn't the main thing a judge looks for......... it is conformation and the over all look and structure..build of the animal...whether it be 1x1 or 2x2 ......it is still acceptable in the show ring....

Now onto the posters question....
When I am deciding on who goes and who stays... with my Does or Doelings
I look at ...if they have show standards all the way around "if possible"...

I keep a structural sound Doe
good teat structure within ABGA acceptable standards
nice width front and back
good pigment
Good topline
good bite
nice length
overall wow factor ...whether it be traditional to paint to solid..
good Muscle
Strong pasterns
fast growth rate
Nice neck length..not to long or to short
Nice Feminine appearance

If you don't have the perfect Goat all the way around.... when having to chose... then ...pick out the best that you have... you want to better your herd each time you cull out.... :wink:


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

toth boer goats said:


> ...May I ask ...where you are getting your info from? Sounds like... you are being misinformed.... and nothing has been officially decided yet....


I spoke with My district Representitive, 12, who is also on the Eboard, as well as, a member of the breed standards commitee who is also from district 12 at a show in Danville. Both said the OVERWHELMING majority of the District 12 members that they had spoke to Favored the proposed changes. They also hinted that the traditional change Had been part of the original Proposal but had been dropped to secure enough support to push these New changes through....So Where did you get your Info? I could care less what anyone else does with their Goats...I just like to tell it like it Is. Maybe the Midwest sees things differently than the West Coast?


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

when looking at breeding stock I always look for

2x2 teats .. 1x1 is fine too though
Feet and Legs
BITE (super important)
Growthiness


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> I could care less ...what anyone else does with their Goats....I just like to tell it like it Is.


 But I do and respect all ways.... even pets....

Please remember ...keep it friendly keep it fun..... :thumb:


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)




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