# How do you know if she’s dialated—How long can you wait to get babies out??



## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

I was reading what countylineacres just went through loosing a doe after a csection. Broke my heart to hear that and reminded me about what we went through 2 yrs ago. So wanted to ask about this. We have babies due in June.

We had something happen a couple years ago. No csection. But the babies were pulled by a vet. Both babies died. They were deformed. We had line bred. Not even close in the lines though. We will never do that again(line breeding). I know people do that. But with our experience I wouldn't ever try again.

We drove our doe to the univ vet large animal hospital. She died just before we got there.  this was post the vet pulling the babies.

The univ large animal hospital did a necropsy. She never dialated as I recall. So it was a cervix issue definitely too.

My question is and I'm sorry if this is a stupid question:

How can we know a doe isn't dialated before we start pulling babies?

We have girls due in June. And after going through that two yrs ago it makes one wonder how can we catch things so we don't do damage like a vet did here.

I would have driven her to the univ hospital and not had her birth here had I known she wasn't dialated.

Just curious if there is a definitive way to know.

And then if I find the doe isn't dialating is it ok to drive her a couple hrs to the univ vet large animal hospital?

How long can a doe who's in labor wait to have babies?

Sorry for the questions but if this were to happen to us again I wanted to ask.


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## Tbs4life2000 (Mar 10, 2016)

If I catch the bubble breaking I check after 30 min. Same with acting pushing


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Up calcium intake a month before kidding. Mine like the human chewable gummies. One a day. Alfalfa hay and or pellet adds it as well. If a doe is dialated you can get your hand up to the wrist at least inside. If after thirty minutes of active hard pushing no kids i go in. Be gentle and slow. Make sure your does are good on copper and selenium and give the cdt a month before kidding too.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

The 30-45 minute rule from first push is what I use.
Sooner if I think there's a problem. (Obvious distress beyond normal labor)


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Tbs4life2000: Yes we check too. But are usually always there with our does when they start birthing. 

My question is how do we know if they aren’t dialating? I don’t know if I can drive a doe in the back of my truck for two hours while in labor?


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Sfgwife:
Thank you for your post. Just so you know, we do give that. Give alfalfa. So calcium wasn’t the issue I’m fairly certain. Our goats get copper and selenium every 6 mo. I doubt that had anything to do with what we went through either. We don’t give cdt shots here, haven’t for a few years now. And our goats are very healthy. Probably too healthy. Lol. 

My point is, if this happens to us again I want to take the doe to our univ vet large animal hosp. But wondered how to know if she is dialated. So thank you for sharing that info. I’m wondering if after a hour of no babies could I drive her 2 hrs to the vet hosp? Or would that endanger the doe?


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Goofygoat:
So say you see no baby within a half hour (that’s the rule we use too)

My question is how do we know for sure she’s not dialating? Because I won’t have a vet pull babies if a doe isn’t dialating again. 

I’d prefer driving to vet hospital where they could do csection safely. 

Just wondering about this. Timeframe of driving vs safe labor time etc.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

With women (human) dialation is gauged by the number of fingers you can get into the birth canal at the cervix (to put it very simply) 1 finger =1cm, 2fingers=2cm etc... it's pretty much the same with goats, if you can get your hand in to the wrist she's pretty much dilated.
I can't answer about a timeframe, I'm sorry, that's a question for a vet or someone more experienced than me. My personal philosophy is if I feel I'm in over my head or it's getting close to that point, it's time to load and go.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Thank you Goofygoat. that’s good info to know. 

Perhaps someone else will speak up here regarding whether I can drive 2 hours with a goat in labor without problems.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Buck Naked Boers said:


> Thank you Goofygoat. that's good info to know.
> 
> Perhaps someone else will speak up here regarding whether I can drive 2 hours with a goat in labor without problems.


noone will be able to tell you that. Every animal is different.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Ok well will see if I hear back from anyone else on this. I know all animals are different. But I am wondering if there is a actual time baby has to be out before trouble for the doe. Will wait to hear if anyone else has info they would like to share. Thank you for your input though I appreciate it.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Buck Naked Boers said:


> Ok well will see if I hear back from anyone else on this. I know all animals are different. But I am wondering if there is a actual time baby has to be out before trouble for the doe. Will wait to hear if anyone else has info they would like to share. Thank you for your input though I appreciate it.


@ksalvagno @toth boer goats @SalteyLove @SandyNubians @Damfino @Goat Whisperer . Can you help any here.... i think i am not givin the answers that she maybe wants to hear because i am not givin specifics for a situation like this. :/.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

There are too many variables involved for a specific answer. If baby is working it's way out it could put pressure on it's umbilical cord and cut off its blood and oxygen supply, a two hour drive for a labor intensive doe in a cramped space is not a good thing, goats need to move around and stretch to get babies where they need to be to be delivered. The stress alone could cause problems.... I personally would look for somewhere close or someone I trust to come to me.
There's isn't an exact time or perfectly correct answer.


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## cristina-sorina (May 4, 2018)

Buck Naked Boers said:


> Goofygoat:
> So say you see no baby within a half hour (that's the rule we use too)
> 
> My question is how do we know for sure she's not dialating? Because I won't have a vet pull babies if a doe isn't dialating again.
> ...


This is just my opinion, but a vet should be able to feel if a doe isn't dialating. Like other posters said, and it's a good skill to have. If want to check yourself before calling a vet then glove up, lube up, put your hand in and if you meet a roadblock that doesn't feel like a baby then the doe isn't dialated. Any pulling of kids agains a closed or partiality closed cervix can easily tear the does cervix.

Also, know what your goats labor looks like so you can gauge how long she's been in labor. Sitting up/down, pawing the ground, pushing her head against the walls of the stall, staring off into space, uninterested in feed. This is what my goats do when they're laboring.

I recently had a doe that wasn't pushing but was in obvious discomfort for most of the day. I was concerned so I reached in, easily made it past the open cervix and found the kids malpositioned. Once I got the fist kid into position she easily pushed it out. Had I not reached in to see what was happening she would have worn herself out with ineffective contractions and labor.

As far as knowing if 2 hours is too long to drive a doe in labor, I'd say that's your call as a goat owner to make. Personally I'd do my best to feel if the kids could be pulled, if so then I'd much rather pull if at all possible. If you feel that pulling would risk the life of the doe then I'd probably risk the drive as that was my only option to save the does life.


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## cristina-sorina (May 4, 2018)

Buck Naked Boers said:


> Ok well will see if I hear back from anyone else on this. I know all animals are different. But I am wondering if there is a actual time baby has to be out before trouble for the doe. Will wait to hear if anyone else has info they would like to share. Thank you for your input though I appreciate it.


I'd say baby should be out before the doe gets too tired to push and her labor stops. Then you're in trouble.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm not sure I understand what happened with your doe two years ago - she must have been dialated if the first vet pulled the kids through? 

Many many things caused malformed kids, infections from mosquitos, medicine and dewormer usage, birth defects, environmental toxins. Distant line breeding probably wasn't the cause. 

Anyhow, if the goat has laid down on her side and is full pushing and you don't see nose and toes in several contractions, and you don't have a kid out in 30 minutes, then you go in and fish them out. If you get your arm in, she is dialated and if you got a wall with your hand, she is not dialated.

What County Line has experienced is exceptionally rare and unfortunate. You should expect to be able to deliver kids on your own. No the kids will not survive a 2 hour car ride if they are in the birth canal. They might if still in uterus and the does stops contracting. But most farms never have the need for a C-section.

Now with all that being said, show lines of Boers and African Pygmies have the highest rates of ring womb and C-section being prone to obesity. Exercise is the most important thing for your does. Don't keep them stalled at all.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

^ What SaltyLove said!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is indeed the 30 minute rule. 

When a doe begins true labor, begins to push, she has that time frame to completely dilate and get those kids out.
From contractions, to the kids pushing their way into the birthing canal, triggers natural dilation. 
So by that time frame, if she has no kids on the ground, go in and check her.

If she is not fully dilated, you will feel that, when you can only get a finger or two in there and might feel the opening and do not hit a wall, yet may be able to feel the bubble where the kid is and you cannot go in any further. 
When you feel this, you will have to manually stimulate her:
Use your index and middle finger by gently, going in around the inner edge of the vulva, with your finger tips, working gently, from the inside with your fingers tips, pulling with your finger tips towards you, don;t be rough, just a little pressure, but still inside the vulva area. 
Go around and around the whole vulva in a circle, doing this gently, with a little pressure.

She should start dilating more and more within a short amount of time, maybe a few minutes or so. 
You may feel the bubble or kid better at that point, as it may of moved into position now and at the opening.
With the manual stimulating her, she will push against your hand, it does make her automatically doe that.
If the kid is in proper position, you will see two legs and the head.

If the kid is not positioned right, you may have to find the legs ect and get it into proper position, so it can be born. 

When you can get your hand in there, she is opened up enough to try to get her pushing to get the kid to the door and born. 
You may have to work at it, to get the head out. Again, use the same strategy as above, but this time work around the kids head, so it is the opposite way with your finger tips, to work to get the kids head out and pull on the kids legs, from time to time, a good pull, when she pushes. 

If you cannot get the first kid out relatively soon. Call a vet or take her in.

If you cannot get her to dilate at all doing it for 15 minutes, I would say it isn't going to happen. So that is 45 minutes at the most. After that time frame, the odds of survival is less.

But having to travel 2 hours away for help, that creates issues. The survival rate goes even further down.

If they have ringwomb, you are not getting the kids out. Or if the kid is way, way too big. A C section is the only way.

Under normal situations, you can work at it, to get her to dilate.

As mentioned, Calcium may help her along, if she is deficient. 

Sorry for the book, hope it makes sense.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

^ Toth explained it very, very well!! Early intervention is key. When in doubt, glove up!



What happened with Dazzle was definitely a rare experience but not true ringwomb, and her kids were not malpositioned (which is a common cause for cervixes not dilating fully). 

We have kidded out well over 100+ does and never encountered this specific scenario. She wasn’t overweight, had kidded twice before with zero assistance, and was quite a healthy doe.

We had 5 does kid several days after Dazzle passed, and we had zero complications - which is what we always expect from our girls.

You can do everything right and still have a strange situation like this occur. Just be prepared to go in and check a doe if you have a feeling something is off!


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## CBPitts (Jan 29, 2020)

Do you not have access to a good vet locally? Honestly, a good livestock vet with an open mind toward goats can be worth their weight in gold but I know they can also be pretty rare. 

It may be well worth the time of calling and talking to any and all livestock vets in your area to see if there’s any that you think you might be able to work with. The next best thing is another experienced breeder in the area. 

Our vet is willing to make an appointment to teach clients how to recognize signs of distress when kidding and what to do about it. 

There’s not much more that can be said about the original post and Toth covered everything pretty well.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I would just keep in mind that it’s a 2 hour drive and the longer a doe is in labor the less chance all will be well. I’m not saying look and if there’s a issue load the goat and go to the vet but I would just kinda draw that line at 30 minutes and probably not push it much more then that. Really though go with your gut! If even after 5 minutes your just not feeling like things are right just load and go. Also to give you a little ease back when I first started and didn’t know about that 30 minute rule I have had ones that had issue and they were in labor well over 30 minutes and they were just fine. One I spent 2 hours fishing kids out of her after she had been in labor probably for a good hour if not more and all was fine. So it’s not that they will all be dead after X hours it’s just that the longer it is prolonged the less chance of a total success for all.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Sorry for my late response. Thank you ALL for your posts. I really appreciate all you said here. 

I agree with most of what was said here. 30 min is our rule technically too. We aren't really newbies to goat raising. And I do have a vet here, more than one. But I haven't always had good experiences with our closest distance vet. I won't be driving any of our does 2 hrs...I realize that isn't logical. But I trust the Large Animal Univ Hospital unfortunately they are too far away to drive a in labor doe (approx 2 hrs).

This doe who kidded a couple years ago really hit us in the stomach so to speak. We did line breed her. But she was a healthy doe. She never dialated we don't believe. There was a necropsy done. We had a vet come out here who we had not used for awhile. He pulled the babies out. But in the process ripped her I believe. The babies were both deformed. The whole thing was just weird. It shouldn't have happened.

This is partially why I am choosing to buy a ultrasound machine. I think it will be helpful to know how many babies our doe's are carrying. This doe I mentioned above was a smaller doe. Maybe that too played into this. She wasn't young though as we don't typically breed before age 2 years. But if I had any inkling of a issue with her via a ultrasound I would have driven her before her birthing to the Univ Large Animal Hospital. I don't think we had a ultrasound done on her? I can't remember. Live and learn I guess.

We are a clean herd and farm. Our whole system here is good. But you are right sometimes stuff happens! Thank you all again for sharing your thoughts.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I know you took losing that doe really hard, and it's obvious you're a loving great goat parent who wants the best for her babies and moms. I completely understand the emotional and financial investment you have. I truely hope you have a stress free kidding and textbook deliveries. Don't let your fears overtake common sense it's great to have back up plans and it sounds like you have them. Chances are this kidding will be just fine and you'll be playing with the kids in the pasture soon 

You can print this out to help in difficult situations though. It's from ABGA and can guide you if you find yourself having to go in. Actually it can be applied to any breed but its from a boer website 

http://abga.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Kidding-Positions.pdf


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

GoofyGoat: Thank you so much for that info on the link! I really appreciate that info! We are a abga registered farm. But I guess I haven't ever looked for this info on their website. Thank you!
Also thank you for your kind words! You are right we really care about our animals and that birthing experience really hit our whole family in the stomach. =( She was my daughters doe. 

I hope that all the births go well this year too. Thank you for your well wishes!

Have a wonderful week!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Buck Naked Boers said:


> GoofyGoat: Thank you so much for that info on the link! I really appreciate that info! We are a abga registered farm. But I guess I haven't ever looked for this info on their website. Thank you!
> Also thank you for your kind words! You are right we really care about our animals and that birthing experience really hit our whole family in the stomach. =( She was my daughters doe.
> 
> I hope that all the births go well this year too. Thank you for your well wishes!
> ...


You're welcome! 
I can't wait to see pictures of all your precious kids!


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Awe thank you! I appreciate yr support! Will start a kissing thread in a couple months.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:great:


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