# Goat Frothing at mouth now dead



## buster2nz

Hi, I just joined the goat spot, because i found my goat frothing at the mount this morning, i saw someone suggesting to give baking soda and water as a drench. i tried this either he was already too far gone or i drowned him giving him the soda water. any suggestions as to what was wrong and why he may have died would be most helpful.


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## ksalvagno

Without knowing all the circumstances it is hard to say. He may have had frothy bloat but can't say for sure. I'm sorry you lost him.


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## buster2nz

Is there a list of things goats can't eat that will kill them?


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## ksalvagno

There are things that goats shouldn't eat. What did she eat?


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## goatylisa

Here is a fairly simple list that hasn't been updated in awhile

https://fiascofarm.com/goats/poisonousplants.htm

Not all goats are the same, mine can munch on ferns without a problem while others (angoras especially) can bloat up and die if not treated with activated charcoal ASAP,

I am sorry about your goat, it's sad


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## buster2nz

Billy was a wild goat with angora mix he had the most wonderful soft fluffy coat.

I had him on a patch of grass yesterday, by late afternoon i could see he wasn't happy his stomach not full enough, so i took him over to a patch of grass and clover. he wasn't there that long, maybe an hour before i put him back to his house.

I was up at midnight checking on cow in labour and checked on Billy as well and he was fine.

went out 7.30 am to check on cow in labour, and Billy was standing there frothing at the mouth. He was exhausted, but still standing. I rushed inside and dialed up google and found your website with someone suggesting baking soda and water.

i had a brand new drench gun hadn't even unpacked and looked at it. opened it and found it had a rose nossel on it, couldn't find how to get it off and put the longer hose on for sticking down throat, so in desperation i squirted the soda down his throat using the rose nossel, from there it all went pear shape, he collapsed and never got up. he coughed a few times and froth was still coming out of his mouth and nose. I could see i was losing him and pumped his chest and stomach, i think i heard him burp once or twice.

That's why i was wondering did i drown him with the rose nossel?


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## happybleats

so very sorry for your loss, Glad you found your way here,......I wonder if the clove caused rumen upset..?? It is very hard to say what made him ill...a necropsy may give answers


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## buster2nz

Hi Cathy,

just found this list on line from Cornell university, see clover at top of the list. cause being mechanical injury, If it was the clover why did it take so long to kick in. I think that you could be right about the Rumen, a Necropsy how would i do that?

http://poisonousplants.ansci.cornell.edu/goatlist.html

All Other Toxic Plants:
These plants all have different properties that make them toxic in their own way. They may not even kill the goats, but they cause mechanical injury or problems with resins. So for all others, here is the list:
Clover
Cocklebur
Downy Broome Grass
Sand Bur
Squirrel Tail Grass
Inkberry
Poke Weed
Pine Trees
Ponderosa Pine Needles
Baneberry
Buttercups
Crowfoot
Ground Ivy
Lobelia
Snakeberry
Spurge
White Cohosh


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## KristiStone

Oh gosh, I am so sorry for what you are going through and for your goat. I had a similar situation where I used the internet to help me with an animal and I ended up causing her to get worse, then die. It hurts your heart when that happens. Big hugs and I hope you can figure out what happened.


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## buster2nz

Well the internet is a wonderful thing, Necropsy is describing a post mortem on an animal. The term Post Mortem is used for Humans. The term Necropsy is used for Animals, both mean the same thing.

I have just watched several Necropsy's on utube and don't feel like going there. I have no idea what to look for and i would only be cutting poor Billy into bits for no reward. I can see i need to do more research about the clover and how long it can take to show symptoms and cause death. Still haven't ruled out i drowned him. Thank you all that have posted, you have all been of great help and comfort.

Regards Maxine


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## KristiStone

Maxine, do you have a local lab that you could take your goat to rather than doing the necropsy yourself? I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do one on your goat, but that you probably wouldn't have to do it yourself. We have a local lab that we can make an appt to bring our animal in for them to perform that kind of thing and give us some answers.

If you are in California, there is UC Davis, or in Washington there is WADDL. Not sure of any other labs around, I'm sure others will have suggestions for you.


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## buster2nz

Hi Krististone,

I live in New Zealand, we have to take that sort of things to a vet, and they charge an arm and a leg.!!. But thanks for the thought.

I have however come across the following:- Plants that cause frothy bloat:
Legumes -clover, lucerne
from:- http://www.lifestyleblock.co.nz/lifestyle-file/livestock-a-pets/goats/item/94-plants-that-poison-goats.html

ksalvagno, suggested Frothy Bloat, everything i found talked about Clover being the cause of Mechanical Injury which sounded quite strange for Clover.

Ksalvagno sounds like they know their stuff. I still need to look at time frames for Frothy Bloat, and clover. Its our spring here, so is Clover more toxic now?.

Anyone with further information would be most gratefully received.


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## happybleats

it doesnt take long for the rumen to be compromised and go down quick, frothy bloat can kill fast...frothy bloat would be better treated with a bit of dish soap and water..or tide laundry soap..it thins the walls of the bubbles to they pop and the goat can release the gasses...
here is a quote from an article...http://kinne.net/bloat.htm

Frothy Bloat

Frothy bloat is usually caused by overeating lush, damp feeds such as clover, alfalfa or legume pastures. Green feed that has grown warm in the stack can also create problems. Foam forms in the rumen with tiny bubbles that are impossible for a goat to belch up. Foam is more dangerous than dry bloat. The rumen expands with foam and the goat can die pretty quickly from respiratory or circulatory failure due to excessive pressure on the diaphragm.


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## buster2nz

Hi Cathy,

Yes i'm finding out more and more, beginning to feel less likely that i drowned him.

Found another web site that has very much the same as you have said.

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/bloat/bloat.shtml

What i would like to know is how long could this process take, its possible i'm asking how long is a piece of string. But it was about 5 pm that i put him back to his house. I saw him at midnight, with torch, did not pick up any sign of distress. by 7.30 am he was critical. Any idea's?.


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## happybleats

most info just says it happens fast..I would guess it can happen in a few hours or less. I have lost one to frothy bloat, it was within a few hours of feeding. I do not believe you drown him..


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## buster2nz

Just talking to a local farmer they said they thought if it had been the clover that it would have be very quick. It sounds like Frothy Bloat from what i have read, but at this stage no idea. He only ever ate grass and weeds, he was never that interested in hay, except something in particular that was in the hay, but i could never figure out what he was nibbling on, it always disappeared to quick. lol. and he was never interested in rolled ground barley and molasses.


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## happybleats

You may never know what actually caused his death but frothy bloat from clover is your best bet here. It can be frustrating. The rumen can be a fickle place...feeding hay 30-40 minutes before setting goats out to graze does a few things...first without graze they are more likely to eat the hay, filling up some and setting rumen up. It also allows time for the dew to dry on the pasture which helps reduce bloat and parasites...Worm eggs travel up the grass bladed on the dew drops where goats consume them and start worm infestation over again. I would keep a bloat solution on the ready. I buy bloat stuff from Tractor supply, but you can also add a few drops of dish soap to water and drench...massage the belly and elevate the front legs....

best wishes


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## GoatMama123

I am so sorry for your loss! This makes me so scared for my babies. I live in the Pacific NW so starting about now until June, pasture will always be wet... I saw you guys were mentioning alot about wet feed/browsing causing this....should they be kept indoors for the winter or limit outdoor browsing?


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## happybleats

goatmama 123 we will not always be able to avoid wet browse....its a good idea to feed hay 30-40 minutes before setting them out to graze. in real wet weather we drag a hay feeder into the barn where our goats hang out...they eat hay off and on through out the night and day...so when the rain does stop and they graze but are not really hungry. The hay is already setting up the rumen as well...also keep a watch for bloat symptoms such as a large left side, a goat looking uncomfortable...Baking soda is helpful for dry bloat..I add a tablespoon or so in enough water to drench...some make a ball of it and feed...massage, knead, bounce the belly,, walk the goat, elevate front legs until the goat begins to burp, gas and the side is reduced...as mentioned above, for frothy bloat you can buy a bloat release or use dish soap and water, just a few drops to help weaken the bubble walls to pop and be burped out...
always follow up with probiotics


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## cfish001

HappyBleats - There seems to be so many things that could go wrong. 

I wasn't aware that clover could cause frothy bloat. Is this for all kinds of clover? 

I do put baking soda in my barns for free choice use by the goats. I dont seem to have much of a problem with dry bloat except for one doe this year shortly after birthing. 

I was able to keep it at bay by using digest zen by doterra, but we didn't know what was causing it. We also use the techniques of rubbing the belling down until we start hearing the belly sounds again and size reduction. 

Her problem when away when we started cutting down on the amount of alfalfa pellets in the milking room and started to use alfalfa hay in the milking room. I thought this was strange, but when that change happened, her boating issues went away.

However, just recently another doe started to increase in size. I am watching for these issues constantly and when we checked her lift side we could hear air. I think her bloating had just started. Started to rub and massage her belly multiple times a day when we see a change in belly size. By the way, she never exhibited any signs that she was uncomfortable. Found that we had run out of baking soda in her barn and fixed that right away. Seems ok today size wize and no apparent bloat.

I have a friend in NW Washington that I talk with alot who runs a dairy with oberhaslis. She uses alot of natural techniques and recommends that anytime the goat seems to be having issues to dump the gut by giving oil to the goat to keep the rumen from going down and avoid running the risk of loosing your goat. I use a turkey baster to get the oil down them. I have used this technique multimple times when something seems to be off and it has served us well. Seems to clear out what ever is causing the issue and the goat recovers very quickly.

Dont know if this would do anything for frothy bloat though- What are your thoughts?


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## happybleats

I found this info on types of clove that cause boat...

Legumes with the highest likelihood to cause bloat include white clover, alfalfa, annual medics and Persian clover. Red clover, crimson clover and subterranean clover would be classified as moderately likely to cause bloat, while berseem clover and arrrowleaf clover are low risks for causing bloat

I love do terras digest-zen..I use it many times a goats rumen if compromised...as well as Ginger EO...

Oil is helpful in treating dry bloat but not frothy. when using oil, be sure its flavored some how..mineral oil is great but can cause the goat to aspirate since its unflavored..use cool aid or something to add a bit of flavor is you use it...the dish soap or tide laundry soap is your best home remedy to treat FB. Frothy bloat is an emergency as the froth build quickly..unlike dry bloat where the goat with help can belch the gasses out...I keep Therabloat handy which is very effective as well..the idea is thinning the bubble walls so they pop and the goat gets relief. The article I listed is a very good read on bloat...I find myself reading over and over on subjects brought up so my mind is ready for action when I have a need.

the best way to try to prevent bloat is feeding hay prior to sending out to graze...the hay acts like a buffer of sorts, the goats chews and the body makes its own bicarbonate...lush green pastures should be fed only a few hours at a time over a period of weeks increasing time allotment a little at a time to help set up the rumen....watching for bloat and poop changes...adjust time as needed...it can be a hassle at times...but well worth it to avoid bloat or scours..


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## buster2nz

Morning Cathy,

Somewhere in my hurried readings yesterday i read that Mineral Oil is harmful to the lining of the stomach, something about it stripping. I'd have to back track and find where i read it. I read so much yesterday.

The suggestion was to use Cooking Oil, any type.


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## happybleats

Ive not heard that about mineral oil. Ive read many suggestions on its use...I believe corn oil is the most recommended...


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## ctopal

I'm so sorry for your loss


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## Trickyroo

Sorry you lost him 
Was just thinking that maybe he had choke...


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## davidwheeler

I am sorry about your goat. I had the same problem but with a doe & horse. I fed them whole oats and they started foaming at the mouth, they would cough up foam. so I quit feeding whole oats and they got better.


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