# Finally!!!!



## back40goats (Sep 20, 2013)

I have been a lurker on this site and on the old "pack goat forum" site for a while now and have learned a lot. I have been messing with the idea of getting a team of pack goats for over 5 years now. Only problem I have is that living in central Wisconsin I am not exactly in the hub of the pack goat world. Well last weekend I finally said to hell with it and went and picked up 4 kids from a lady I have been in contact with for over a year. They are 4 weeks old and are pure bread Alpines. In a couple more weeks I will be going back to get the remaining 4. I will post some pics of them because I am very excited about them. I am sure I will have some questions as well. Feel free to let me know if you think I am going anything wrong (or right!)


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

The black ones look exactly like 3 of my kids. Boys or girls?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Very cute! Congrats!


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## back40goats (Sep 20, 2013)

All boys. I plan to take them with me on my annual western hunting trips but they are more of a pet. I currently have two fainting goats but these are like a whole different animal. Super friendly. Follow me everywhere and chew on everything. If they are not penned up they are eating something they shouldn't or chewing something they shouldn't. Tons of fun. I have some questions about them. I want them to get big. Hoping for the 175-200lb range. So any advice on when I should band them? I see people go anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months. The lady I bought them from said to band them in 4 weeks. Thoughts? Also I have been taking them on daily hikes with me after work. Some walks have been around a mile. Is this too much for the kids? They do well and don't act tired, staying right by my side unleashed, but I realize these are basically toddlers yet. But should I worry about fatigue? Maybe give them a day or two to rest after a week of hikes or keep at it as long as they are showing playful exuberance? Sorry for the ramble and I appreciate any advice as I am no expert.

Sorry about the sideways pics I don't know why it did that.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would go as long as you can for banding. I wouldn't do it sooner than 3 months old.


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## idahonancy (Dec 13, 2008)

It took me 7 years of longing for packgoats before I said to hell with it. However I had a land use restriction against goats I had to contend with for a year once I decided to do it. 
Try to push the castration past 3 months. Many of us go around 5 months give or take a month. They will start acting bucky at around 4 months and are technically breed-able. It seems like very few of the packgoat people go past 6 months.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

congrats on your babies! sundgau markings are my favourite!! good luck with the training. don`t forget to post pics of your other four when you get them!


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## back40goats (Sep 20, 2013)

I appreciate the info. I will definitely hold off on the banding. I have been taking these guys on daily walks. It is a blast taking these four boys, my poorly wintered beagle and my 3 yr old daughter out for a walk. We go through the woods behind my house and it is incredible how athletic these guys are at such a young age. They follow very well, but a couple tend to try and get out in front of me and will stop, tripping me up. Any advise as how to keep them behind me or is this something I have to deal with.


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## COgoatLover25 (Dec 23, 2013)

I just banded my Nubian buckling at 4 months, it's not the most convenient but it's better for them because it gives time for their urinary tract to develop leaving less chance of UC later in life 


Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


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## wyomingtrapper (Mar 27, 2014)

When the lambs or kids get in my way when walking, I just keep walking. After getting knocked over or aside a couple of times, they seem to figure it out.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

back40goats said:


> I appreciate the info. I will definitely hold off on the banding.


Please also consider using burdizzo or surgical castration instead of banding at that age.


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## back40goats (Sep 20, 2013)

What are the advantages of surgical castration and the burdizzo over banding? I am not bias for any reason other than as a fellow male I am looking for the more preferred method if there is one. Like to use the most pain free yet effective method.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Surgical castration is done and over with once the surgery is done. I like to do a shot of Banamine for a day or 2 afterward. You just have to keep an eye on it until it fully heals.

No experience with the burdizzo but it is my understanding that it is critical that it is done right. People have missed a testicle and then it has to be redone or surgery.


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## TOU (Aug 18, 2013)

wyomingtrapper said:


> When the lambs or kids get in my way when walking, I just keep walking. After getting knocked over or aside a couple of times, they seem to figure it out.


I was thinking long the exact same lines, its what they do with each other.

That said, while I do not hold with ever abusing my animals, goats are a very physical animal & it is a part of their social structure. If you do not have a physical oriented relationship with them, I think they will walk all over you. _(Water/spray-bottles are highly effective as well for discipline with most.)_ Yes this means respect & even discipline oriented _(very limited on that though)_ Keep in mind this means physical affection like scratching & rubbing their favorite areas as well as regularly patting their upper bellies as you go by them or even just resting your hands on their backs or necks as you walk. This also goes along way to calming them & letting them know what you want.

Just a few pennies worth & that is about it,

TOU


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

back40goats said:


> What are the advantages of surgical castration and the burdizzo over banding? I am not bias for any reason other than as a fellow male I am looking for the more preferred method if there is one. Like to use the most pain free yet effective method.


Banding in older goats/sheep is the most stressfull/painfull method, followed by burdizzo. The healing process is much longer than with surgical castration.

I'm not sure if it was transferred with the contents of the old packgoat forum but I have forwarded years ago a summary/link to a study done in Switzerland about all three methods on young sheep and the physiological effects (pain duration, stress level, time of healing).

Maybe you can find it searching this forum.


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## back40goats (Sep 20, 2013)

I appreciate all of the insight I gain from this forum. And it seems there are some great people in the goat world. I now have a little worry and hopefully you all will continue to help. One of my goats seems to be ill. I got the boys on the 10th of May. After a couple of days that I had them one of them, Igor (he's the black one that is not one of the twins) got some diarrhea and was acting a little weak. He was eating all of his bottle so I chalked it up to stress/change of diet and environment. After a couple days he seemed fine. Now the last couple days he acts really weak. He will come out of the hut to eat and then lays back down. He is drinking all of his milk and even eating some of his hay but he is not peppy and playful like the other three. Any suggestions? I am going to call my vet today to talk to him about castration and other info he might have but I thought I would ask all of you experts out there.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

here's some info on the different castration techniques that maybe helpful.

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/buck-wether-info.htm#neutering

what colour was his poop? are you on any coccidian prevention? that can cause scours. you want to treat cocci asap as it can stunt their growth (not good for pack wethers).

it could also be from worms. have they been wormed when they arrived? travel can cause stress, which can cause a rise in worm load.

you can send their poop to a vet to run fecals, and ask for cocci. that way you'll know exactly what tummy issues they have and know how to treat it...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

How old are they? Does he still have diarrhea?


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## back40goats (Sep 20, 2013)

They were 4 weeks old the day I picked them up, so now he is around 5-6 weeks old. His stool looks fine now. He only had diarrhea for a day or so last week, but he is just acting ill. He hangs his head when standing and lays down as soon as he is done eating. He has been this way for a couple days now. Might not be anything major, but I hate for him to get really sick because I did nothing.

They were wormed the day I picked them up. I have given them no medication and don't even really know what kind of things to have on hand. I know there are several threads about what essentials one should keep on hand. I may ask my vet this when I call him in about an hour.

thanks everyone!


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

have a fecal exam done. Worming won't necessarily cover coccidia and it's the right time of year for this type of parasite (spring, warm, rain) and your youngsters are the right age for being at risk.


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## back40goats (Sep 20, 2013)

Ok. Things are great now. Maybe I am overeating, but I just called my vet. and talked to his secretary. He is out of town until Tuesday. Should I contact a different vet or should I wait until next week? She also advised me that he doesn't seem to do much with goats. My goat isn't acting deadly sick but definitely is feeling in the dumps. As a newer goat owner I don't know if I am getting too excited. I can certainly do a test. Should I separate him from the other goats?


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## TOU (Aug 18, 2013)

Makes me wonder if isn't milk related. Too much? Not mixed up enough?


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## GreenMountainNigerians (Jul 3, 2013)

I don't know much about packing ,but I do think your kids are way beautiful!


Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

They are so cute! Congrats and welcome to TGS! :wave:


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

back40goats said:


> Ok. Things are great now. Maybe I am overeating, but I just called my vet. and talked to his secretary. He is out of town until Tuesday. Should I contact a different vet or should I wait until next week? She also advised me that he doesn't seem to do much with goats. My goat isn't acting deadly sick but definitely is feeling in the dumps. As a newer goat owner I don't know if I am getting too excited. I can certainly do a test. Should I separate him from the other goats?


http://fiascofarm.com/goats/coccidiosis.htm - info on cocci.

vets, no matter if they deal with goats or not, can run fecals. get them to run a fecal, include cocci, and if they can't provide good advice, there are plenty of people on here who can.

if you don't want to wait for your vet, you can always give another worm treatment and cocci treatment.

goats don't have to act deadly sick to have an issue.....


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

back40goats said:


> OMy goat isn't acting deadly sick but definitely is feeling in the dumps.


Just for you to keep in mind.

When a goat is acting so sick that you can see symptoms, it's almost to late too react.

As prey animals, goats masks earlier symptoms of uneasyness to not attract predators.

So, keep an eye on your little guy, with lambs the process is even faster.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

link to the Swiss castration study

http://www.working-goats.de/diss_melches.pdf


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## back40goats (Sep 20, 2013)

Bittersweet weekend. I have some bad news. My sick goat died sat. night. I was out of town from Thursday thru sat. I kept check on my goat thru my wife. Thursday morn I fed him and he was great. Friday my wife said he was fine. Then on Saturday some time in the afternoon he started to act down again. That morning he only ate half a bottle of milk and didn't eat at all that evening. As I was on my way home I got a call. At 7:30 he couldn't stand, 8:30 he had a seizure. I got home at 9:30 and he was having a constant seizure. At about 10:15 he died. I have asked around and want your opinions, what would have killed him so fast. I know he has been up and down for a week, but to drop off in a matter of a few hours? The lady I got him from said coccia or most likely pneumonia. Either way it is terrible to have any animal die basically in my arms. 

On a couple of positives, my 3.5 yr old handled this probably better than I did. And on Monday I got the second batch of boys. I got 4 more alpines and they are awesome. I am currently at 7 alpines and 2 dwarf fainters. But I believe the fainters are getting sold today. We will be getting probably one more alpine and some Nigerian dwarfs in the next week or so.


I am a little more prepared for disease and illness. The lesson I think I learned from this unfortunate ordeal is to be prepared and not take a vets exact word. At any sign of diarrhea I will treat for worms, and get advise from TGS!

I will get pics up of my new guys soon. 

thanks


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I am so sorry you lost him. I would have a fecal done. Find out what parasites are found and we can help you with what wormer and how much to use.

Probably either coccidia or pneumonia but only a necropsy would probably tell you for sure.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

awww....I'm sorry for your loss. without a necropsy it's hard to say what it was. did your wife ever take a temp while he was feeling ill? what about his poops, membrane colours? 

most of the time, vets don't really know how to handle goats. they either lump goats in the sheep or cow category, and it just doesn't really work. it's very lucky and rare to find a good goat vet or a vet who's willing to at least learn about goats. 

I have learned that the members here are really knowledgeable, sometimes more so than most vets. and with time, you'll be able to get a feel for what's wrong with your guys and know the ways to treat them.

best of luck with the new batch. post pictures when you can. and don't forget that we're all here to help!


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## back40goats (Sep 20, 2013)

Thanks,

His poops were fine. Never checked if he had a fever or not. I feel terrible because I know I handled this like a moron. I know from now on I am going to be more urgent with a sick animal. I have a few names of different vets that are good with goats and the lady who I got them from said to never hesitate to call. She feels bad because she was out of town when I was trying to get ahold of her. I do believe this goat was kind of sickly from the beginning. The day we got them he seemed a little off. He was kind of a homely little guy. We named him Igor. My daughter did well with helping me bury him. It was sad when we got up to leave the grave and she said "I love you Igor, I will come see you everyday so you won't be lonely."


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

awww. heartbreaking. :hug:

it's ok. we all have our live and learn moments with a death of an animal. I had one with a goat too, so you're not alone in this regard.


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