# Differentiating between CL and other abscesses???



## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Are there any tell-tale signs of a CL abscess vs. other abscesses such as ones at an injection site? I had to put one goat down because of CL a year ago and have been very aggressive about vaccinating and preventing this again since that time. I am a little paranoid about the disease and don't want it around.

I am asking this because I have one very hard to manage and stubborn doe that had a small abscess rupture right behind her front shoulder. I know this is a common CL location but also where I have been vaccinating my goats for CL and CDT. This goat is extremely skittish and always has been wild so it can be a 45 minute job to catch her, even with food! Because of this I don't often feel her for lumps except when I can catch her and I am usually more focused on giving her the shots or worming so I can let her go. The problem is that she is so jumpy and I might have given the shots a little too deep or a little too shallow, possibly causing problems.

I noticed this while I had caught her to move her to a warmer shelter as she is due to kid any day now. I decided to move her when I could no longer feel her tail ligaments. Moving her 75 feet was a nightmare that took over an hour. She fought and kicked the entire time and I was worried about choking her with the leash and collar I was using. 

I decided to check for lumps while I was resting between episodes of moving her 5 feet and then her digging in hard when I noticed this. The abscess has the remains of a dried pus material and looks like a smaller abscess. It has drained and there are no bald spots or anything except maybe right where it drained. We are talking about a very small area where it drained, not like the entire skin bulged and ruptured. It doesn't look like any of the pictures of the disease I have found online but is in a very common CL location. As I said, this is where I often give shots.

Are there any common signs that can tell me if this is CL or not?

Also, where is the best location for giving shots as to not confuse myself with this in the future? I like an area where I can pull up loose skin to give the shots so I pick this area. Are there any other good locations people here use?

That being said, this goat has been such a pain I think I will be moving her along after the kids arrive. I will just go it differently if I can confirm this is CL. Having her tested wouldn't work as I have been vaccinating her.

Conor


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Behind the shoulder is not a very common spot at all. I myself from what you have said sounds like a little infection from where you gave a shot. My kids get them every once in a while and one got real nasty like what you are describing. Other then testing there is really no way to know for sure but I have never seen one there. I would still wear gloves while touching the puss. There's really nothing you can do if cl since it bursted but to be in the safe side I would cut the hair with the puss off and burn it. Again my vote is not cl but I'm not always right


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I agree with Jessica. Behind the shoulder isn't a common site. I would say no to CL also. But if she is that much of a pain to handle....I think she would go to the sale if she were mine.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I am glad to hear this. The reason I was worried was this goat came as a pair with the one that later came down with the disease. She has gone over a year without any issues and I have vaccinated her. It was first with the Case Bac and later the Texas Vet Labs version just for goats.

The location would be the red dot behind the front shoulder here. http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f19/cl-presentation-info-30976/ I am not sure why some are different colors but the goat that had it last year had it where the red dot is under the ear. I have seen other goat herds infested with this and most seem to have it under their ears too. I also see this in the pictures online a lot so I am thinking that is the common location.

I also found a lump on her chest but that could also be from a shot. I use clean needles each time but was wondering if her being such a pain and moving around when being held has caused the shot to go in places where it isn't meant to go. She has always been a pain and I think I will move her along after the kidding. I am glad to hear you think this isn't CL.

Again, there is no bald spot where the abscess broke. I seem to see this as a diagnostic feature of CL.

I will cut the hair off and clean the area. I have iodine and bleach. Which one would work best?

Conor


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

This same goat has a lump on her chest??? That is a common cl spot. My first goat o bought which was cl positive got the lump on her chest all the time.
As for bleach and iodine I would do bleach.
But if you are wanting a cl free herd and she has the lump on the chest and came with the cl positive goat.....and a pain in the butt lol, if it was me I would sell. She's bred right??? If she has that lump I would pull anything you wanted to keep....like a doeling and bottle feed. Her milk should be good as long as you don't feel any knots in her bag and no puss comes out when milked but I would play it safe and not let it burst around anything you want or want to sell as breeding stock. If her kids are meant for meat then I would let her keep them......its so sad pulling kids


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

Yes, she has a lump on her chest but this MIGHT be related to an injection too. The lump is loose under the skin but hard to the feel. It isn't squishy. I don't know if this means anything either. Anyway, I do want a CL free herd and do plan to get rid of her no matter what with her difficult personality. I don't know but this could be an injection site deal as she has been known to jump around while I am trying to give her a shot. I think I will just keep an eye on this lump and see if it grows or not. If it shrinks, I will figure it is an injection site issue and not worry about it.

Yes, she has been bred. She hasn't just been bred but is due to kid anytime and I have her put up away from the others. Her tail ligaments are gone and her tail is sunken in and her back arched. I think she will probably have them today or maybe tomorrow morning. Either way, she is definitely staying in for tonight because it is going to be cold and it was a nightmare getting her put up. I figure I will let her out tomorrow as it will be much warmer then. I can lure her back by catching the kids and carrying them to where I want her.

I will see what the kids bring. Maybe she will have a buckling or buckling so I don't have to deal with this and can just take the set of them to the sale for meat. I agree that it is best for everyone to keep them together. I will inspect around her udder and make sure there are no lumps or bumps there either. She has a lot of hair in this area which covers things up. I will feel around and make sure before I let her out because catching her is a pain.

Conor


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

She kidded today with a buckling and a doeling. Both are cute as can be. Looking at this lump further makes me think it isn't CL, especially when looking at pictures of CL compared to mine. I just saw this one: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/doe-knots-front-shoulders-164434/index2.html#post1660693 OUCH!!!! Not good.

The bump the ruptured on mine had all its hair and was around where I gave shots. The other bump also has all its hair and might be another shot location. Either way, I will keep an eye out on this one as I am paranoid about CL.

Conor


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

cwatkin said:


> Are there any tell-tale signs of a CL abscess vs. other abscesses such as ones at an injection site?
> 
> I am asking this because I have one very hard to manage and stubborn doe that had a small abscess rupture right behind her front shoulder. I know this is a common CL location but also where I have been vaccinating my goats for CL and CDT.


There are specific areas where CL abscesses occur - under the ears is the main one, but they can also occur in front of the shoulder, under the jaw, in front of the hip, and a couple of other places that I don't remember right now. Behind the shoulder is not a typical CL abscess location. As far as where to inject so as not to confuse an injection site abscess/knot with a CL abscess - give the injection about halfway up the neck and about 3/4's of the way between the head and shoulder.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

That CL location graphic is terrible. And ignore the black dots that the person added on. The one on the jaw under the ear was already marked. The one on the lower jaw next to the teeth is not a CL spot but a tooth abscess location. The one behind the front leg is a vaccine site abscess location not a CL location.

Now here is the thing with this post. You are asking people to give you vague descriptions of a abscess on your goats without pictures. Thats kinda tough. But here is the key thing. If you are keeping a positive CL goat with a negative goat, even with vaccination, you might as well consider them both positive. The vaccine is IMO nearly worhtless. Did the positive goat pop the abscess or did you have it lanced? CL lives at least 2 years on surfaces. Maybe longer.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

The abscess never ruptures but tested positive for CL. I took her to a vet and had it lanced and tested. It did start to return in the same location (under the ear) so I kept it in check by injecting formulan the time I kept her around for the baby. She didn't have any under the udder area so I figured she was safe. I also kept her in a quarantine area away form the others with her kid just in case.

So, the vaccines are pretty much a joke? Do they provide any protection or not? Also, I understand there is a place that makes vaccines based on your own CL culture. Are these any good?

Also, there is a goat vaccine (Texas Vet Labs) and sheep version (Colorado) that people use on goats. Does the goat one work any better?

I will try to get a picture of the lump soon along with the location. It is above and in front of the front shoulder on the chest area. This is the one that is impossible to catch.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

The best way to test is to send in the pus to be tested. Blood testing is not very accurate. Vaccinating would not cause a false positive when testing the pus.

If a goat already has been exposed to CL, vaccinating it will not stop the disease, though it can make it less severe. The vaccine can help prevent CL in goats that have not been exposed to it, but a blood test will always show positive because the CL antibodies are in the animals system. Can make it confusing to really know if they have it or not, especially if the goat is sold and the new owners don't know about the goat being vaccinated.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The thing with the strain specific cl vaccine is that there are multiple different strains and to be sure, you really need to have each abscess tested. If you do end up with more then one strain, then you have to vaccinate for each one. The use of vaccine for the control of CL-related symptoms in CL-infected animals prevents most, but not necessarily all, future CL abscesses. AND you have to keep on giving boosters every 3-4 months for the entire life of the goat. Then you have to deal with the side effects of the vaccine site.

But most importantly, the vaccine does not protect a negative goat from contracting the disease. The vaccines target is to lessen the out breaks a positive animal has. Which in itself is ridiculous as naturally some animals only grow one or two during their life while others go chronic nearly from the start. So there is no way of knowing if its actually helping unless you have a chronic animal and you notice a drop in the number of abscess that animal grows.


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## cwatkin (Jul 9, 2012)

I see. I am sure the vaccine would help them from getting it if they were exposed to a small concentration of infections material but it sounds like if one liked a ruptered abscess on another goat, it would be game over no matter what, just maybe not as severe.

I will catch this goat tomorrow and photograph the area during feeding. About the only time is the morning when I feed them and the skittish one is too hungry to care.

Conor


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