# Opinion.. horned or disbudded ???



## snevets5 (Oct 31, 2014)

I wanted to see what everyone's opinion was when it come to horned or disbudded goats. I have two fainting goats bucks with horns. My does are polled. I have gotten side swipe by my buck horns and I don't think he meant it . it was him moving his head. Been hearing more about there horn can be dangerous. My doe is due anytime and wondering if I should disbud the kids...


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Well, for us there's no option for horned. We have two toddlers who interact with our goats daily, and they're dairy so if we choose to show they can't have horns anyways.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I was big on horns, I liked the idea they had some what of a way to defend them selfs but now, if I want to keep one it gets disbudded. I won't not buy a horned goat I just like no horns better. Less heads stuck in the fence, less bruises on my legs and no hooking each other. I have boers and I feel so bad for the bucks! Their horns go back and then out so when they lay out sun tanning they are laying on their horn  
Now the reason why I only disbud ones I think I might keep and low % is because if someone is wanting something to show then they want one with horns. So that's something to consider as well


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Heads stuck in the fence has been m only issue. And I have small to large goats with an amazing array of horns. I don't believe in disbudding so if I want goats with no horns I only accept polled as an option.

BUT I never fault someone for choosing to disbud. Its my personal choice not to. There are MANY reasons to disbud kids.


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## snevets5 (Oct 31, 2014)

Can polled and horned goat get along OK? I have two polled does and I am looking at some ones that are horned. Do you ever see a problem.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

No, generally they don't get along well. The horned goats will push and beat up the dehorned goats.

All my goats are horned. They defend themselves, and horns help them cool down. My girls also use their horns to bring down brush and branches  Plus they look cool.
If I had started with dehorned goats (which I didn't) I'd probably have gone with that.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I hate horned goats. I used to have a few in the herd. Some would continuously get their head stuck in the fence, they have an attitude toward the non horned goats, they get in the way on the stanchion, you get jabbed trying to give shots or trim hooves, and they are not allowed in the show ring. I have heard of people getting seriously injured by horned goats...just by accident. Not a fan of the horns...I disbud all my kids.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

All my goats are down right mean to each other at times it doesn't matter if they have horns or not. My queen for years was a disbudded doe, no one messed with her. Now the goats are kinda split in 2 I'm not sure who the top queen is, it's either shortcake who has horns or Rosie who doesn't have horns. I've never seen them fight but no one picks on those two. I don't really see that the horned goats pick on the others more then the ones without. What I do hate though is when a horned goat hooks a leg, it's like a perfect V for their legs to get stuck in but that would happen even if they were all horned. 
I wish all my goats didn't have horns but I won't pass up a good doe because of horns and I'm not selling what I have over it (unless they are really bullies or keep getting their head stuck) so I have both.


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## snevets5 (Oct 31, 2014)

I am just starting out and I thought the same things horned goats can protect themselves. But I have gotten bumped a couple of time with my buck and it didn't feel to good and left a bruise. My two bucks are horned and I have to doelings that are horned and two polled does. Thinking more of disbudding the new arrivals that should be here any day and going that route. What kind of fence do you all use? Field fencing?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I have both horned and not horned.... They all get along...


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

My polled and horned goats have always gotten along just fine. I think its more about the individual goat than the fact that it has horns or not.... Some of my meanest goats have been polled.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

My horned goats were so nasty to the non-horned. They knew they had an advantage and could bully the other goats around. Maybe it was just mine...but only the horned ones had the attitude problem.


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## melbah1 (Jun 28, 2013)

I prefer disbudded for convenience. Easier with how I build feeders, stanction and gates/fencing. Its nice to not have to deal with the horns. We also have young children over to see the animals. Horns tips are about eye level for the children so it's nice to not have to worry about the horns. But I do like the idea if leaving the horns on, just not what works here.


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## snevets5 (Oct 31, 2014)

Thanks everone for you in site.


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## Kupla (Aug 1, 2014)

I plan to show and have dairy goats so that means all of them have to be either polled or disbudded. It stinks though because my doeling that I plan to retain is growing scurrs so I have to try to reburn her. I hate hurting them but it has to be done.


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## IDSaanens (Dec 7, 2008)

No horns because I had a disabled husband that got cold cocked when a doe swung her head to go after an itch on her back. I did have a Boer doe that had horns and seemed to be in the middle of the pack. Then I took a bunch to show and when I came back 4 days later, she thought she was queen. They were all doing their herd dominance thing when I saw her lower her head and bring it back up and slit a doe from brisket to jaw. I grabbed her, shaved the base of the horns, put a couple notches in and banded with 2 bands each. About 3 weeks later, they fell off and her attitude improved.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4405681/ and https://www.facebook.com/groups/CloveOilDisbudding/ are two websites that talk about using Clove Oil as a method of disbudding. I am going to start doing that in the dairy herd I am manager of. Within 3 years we are hoping to have 600 head kidding and milking. If this works as people say it does, it will be easy to do and less painful.
IDLaura


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I am confused as to how banding the horns makes them fall off. Do you use an Elastrator whethering tool? How can the bands squeeze the blood supply off when horns are so hard? Is this a better method of dehorning than the surgery? Does it seem painful for the goat?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I prefer horns, but I have a mixed herd of horned and not horned. I disbud the girls because we show them or sell them to other people who might show. I will only disbud goats when my vet friend can put them under for the procedure. I will not do it to a conscious goat. 

My wethers all have horns and live with the girls. I have not had a problem with the horned ones bullying the hornless. My only truly mean goat was a polled doe who we culled partly because of her vicious attitude. She hit one of my other does so hard it caused her to abort her kids at 130 days, and she constantly terrorized our poor LGD. 

You do have to watch out and be careful of horns on goats, just as you have to be careful of horses' hooves, cats' claws, and dogs' teeth. To me it's no different. When we take our wethers out for a public "meet and greet" we use halters so we can closely control their heads. We also usually put tennis balls on their horns and wrap them in vetwrap to cover the tips and to pad the sharp edge on the front of the horns. It works very well and prevents accidents should a goat move suddenly. It also keeps their horns from catching on clothes, and it looks pretty cool.


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## Kupla (Aug 1, 2014)

catharina said:


> I am confused as to how banding the horns makes them fall off. Do you use an Elastrator whethering tool? How can the bands squeeze the blood supply off when horns are so hard? Is this a better method of dehorning than the surgery? Does it seem painful for the goat?


Here is a sticky that explains how to do surgical banding.

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/tutorial-surgically-banding-horns-177793/


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

My small herd has a polled herd queen, a horned second in command, a banded gal coming up third and lastly a horned doe.

My top buck has scurs and his buck buddy has one small scur.

Sometimes they try to use their horns to their advantage but it hasn't changed the hierarchy yet :lol:


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

We started off with horns and then the babies came with sharp little points protruding and bumping childrens chins and mine as well. then those little points grew large enough to get stuck into fences and other places like trees and bushes. Then we had to take all the collars off. Then I see all these bruises on my legs from these sharp horns that accidentally are bumping into me. Then the pounding sounds of the larger goats banging the fence down... then one time I was bent down helping one of our does and she moved her head and jabbed me with her horn (by accident) right near my eye) Some Boers have horns that sweep out wide which is a real problem here. The kids are eye level with grandchildren heights. After one doe miscarried by getting bumped up by one of the older does, we are truly working to eliminate all horned goats on our property. It works well for larger ranches where there is a bigger set up and a bigger area but in a confined winter housing such as we have, no- and where we are out handling our goats daily - no. Larger properties won't always have to worry about goats getting their heads stuck in fences or having people wanting to come and hold a sweet little baby goat. Yes, children can be taught how to handle horned goats but not every child that comes understands right away and I'm not willing to risk a cut or gash to the eye or chin. It's hard to keep a mixed herd of horned and de-horned. I can't part with our herd queen. She is here until she dies with her old horns that she is so very proud to keep sharpened up. Yes, she sharpens them to a sharp point and when her head moves about, I'm always watching where her horn is pointing. So- horns or no horns is a matter of your farms operational needs. Horns are natural. Hornless is unatural but so is dairy farming and so is feeding them all sorts of special goat feeds and nutritions. We make the goat fit our life and in return, we also provide a bit of a utopia for these goats. They don't really have a lot to worry about. We try to let goats be as natural as they can be without horns and our life here is so much easier without the horns.


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## GrocksBoerGoats (Jun 7, 2015)

Keep horns here, that's how they get rid of their heat. Healthier imo.


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## Rise_and_Shine_Ranch (May 16, 2015)

I would totally have horns on my goats but the ADGA doesn't allow that, if you wanna show at least. I hope one day they change their minds...


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Rise_and_Shine_Ranch said:


> I would totally have horns on my goats but the ADGA don't allow that, if you wanna show at least. I hope one day they change their minds...


I'm with you, Rise_and_Shine!


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

We disbudded kids one season. I couldn't bear to see the cute little kids screaming & passing out like that ever again. (I'd make a horrible farmer, I know!) Not only that, 2 were already growing major scurs when we sold them at 2 months old. As ours were only pet quality Alpines we didn't have it done again, & I later switched to San Clemente Island Goats; their beautiful horns are an important part of the breed standard. I do have a few more bruises now but I don't care. I can't argue that horned goats are as safe to be around as hornless ones. I keep my face out of the way of their heads, just like we all try to keep our feet out from under cows' or horses' hooves-just common sense.


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## CanucksStar-17 (May 3, 2013)

I had a goat that had horns and she killed my pregnant doe and her quads. She escaped and somehow got into the wrong pen and for no reason stabbed my pregnant doe in the belly. All the babies were stillborn and the mom died soon after. I got rid of the goat with horns and I will never get another goat with horns. 
I blame myself for her getting in the wrong pen, it has given me a lot of sleepless nights when I think if I had just being more careful I wouldn't have lost those beautiful babies, this is why I highly advise people to not have goats with horns. I lost 5 goats because of horns.


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## CanucksStar-17 (May 3, 2013)

The other thing is getting them stuck, I had a goat get stuck for just about all day. She went all that time with no food and water and it was sooo hard to get her head out, she was in a whole lot of pain from her head stuck at a weird angle. It was super hot out and she went that long with nothing to drink. It's not the first or the last time she got her head stuck.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Wow Canuck--what a horror story!!! I'm so so sorry to hear about that! I felt the same way when one night I forgot to shut the chicken house & 2 chickens were horribly mangled. 6 years later it still bothers me. If I ever end up with a mean goat I will certainly remember & heed your words. Luckily SCIGs are usually mild tempered.


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## Bree_6293 (Aug 4, 2014)

Disbudded all the way! I am trying to slowly get rid of my horned does by keeping doe kids from them or if another nicer doe comes up for sale buy that, sell a horned goat. Horns get stuck in fencing, rip clothing, stab people without meaning to, have an advantage over the disbudded goats.. I just don't like them on my mini herd. Although, we also run a boer herd for meat production. They are on 22 acres and they have the horns to help with predators etc. any doe kids born in that herd that we keep we always disbud though.. 
Canucks I'm so sorry for the loss of your doe and her kids! That must've been heartbreaking


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## snevets5 (Oct 31, 2014)

Thanks all for the input. There are props and con.. Just trying to figure it out.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Snevets5 - its good to get a pro to help you with disbudding should you decide to go hornless and I don't recommend de-horning older goats that already have their horns. That truly has more risks involved. I would read about the risks involved with banding an already horned goat. Disbudding babies should not be as risky when done properly.


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## CanucksStar-17 (May 3, 2013)

packhillboers I agree with you 100% we have de-horned a couple goats before and it is terrible! 

Someone mentioned that they don't disbud their kids cause their kids fainted when they did it. (Or something like that) I've never had a kid faint while disbudding, I think if your kid faints while getting it done then you aren't doing it right. Really though I'd have to say it is one of the worst things you have to put your kids through. And I still hate doing it.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I was the one who saw the kids scream & pass out (briefly-then they came to & screamed more.) Maybe you're right-the lady might have done it wrong, because they started getting scurs almost right away. I've read about using a chemical paste or something to disbud-do you think that would be more humane? I'd kind of worry they'd somehow rub it in their eyes or nose, or on another goat.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

My message keeps not showing up & I keep retyping it. Now it will probably appear 4 times!

Anyway, it was my kids that screamed & passed out during disbudding (briefly-then they came to & screamed more.) Maybe you're right & the lady did it wrong. There was lots of smoke but scurs started growing really soon after.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

catharina said:


> I was the one who saw the kids scream & pass out (briefly-then they came to & screamed more.) Maybe you're right-the lady might have done it wrong, because they started getting scurs almost right away. I've read about using a chemical paste or something to disbud-do you think that would be more humane? I'd kind of worry they'd somehow rub it in their eyes or nose, or on another goat.[/QUOTE
> 
> Catharina, I truly don't understand how the chemical paste is even something that is legal. It seems to be a terrible way to disbud. I have read of people who use it but think of a chemical burn and how that might feel on a goat's head. Disbudding deadens the nerves quickly and it stops bleeding. Whereas chemical paste is a prolonging issue that slowly eats away which in my opinion is awful. I would never ever recommend anyone using a chemical to disbud babies horns. Yes, I'm sure that it could easily get into their eyes, or onto other kids, or udders or even anyone who handles that goat. The worst part of the disbudding is the shaving part as the kid screams in fright over that sound. The disbudding is hard to endure but in a few minutes, the babies are jumping about and back to normal. They seem to forget it all because the next day, they are jumping back into my lap as if they forgot all the trauma.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

packhillboers said:


> catharina said:
> 
> 
> > I was the one who saw the kids scream & pass out (briefly-then they came to & screamed more.) Maybe you're right-the lady might have done it wrong, because they started getting scurs almost right away. I've read about using a chemical paste or something to disbud-do you think that would be more humane? I'd kind of worry they'd somehow rub it in their eyes or nose, or on another goat.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## CanucksStar-17 (May 3, 2013)

I personally would never use the paste.I wouldn't want something on my kids head that keeps hurting. With burning the horns it hurts but after a couple hours it's over and the kids don't even notice it. But with the paste it's on there and hurting for a lot longer.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Actually not, you only leave the paste on for 20 minutes.


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## Steampunked (Mar 23, 2015)

As a question - does Emla cream (or a similar lidocaine cream - I can't remember if Emla has it in) work if you are using the paste? I've used Emla while getting extensive tattooing over the spine, and it worked for about an hour with a 20 min application beforehand - but I've also used it on bad burns, and it's like magic.

Or are the nerves kind of...too deep in the goat's head for it? But not so deep the paste doesn't hurt?


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## CanucksStar-17 (May 3, 2013)

goathiker- It is still on there longer then burning is. As catharina said how are you going to prevent it from getting in their eyes or on udders or their siblings? As packhillboers said, Quote "Disbudding deadens the nerves quickly and it stops bleeding. Whereas chemical paste is a prolonging issue that slowly eats away which in my opinion is awful." Using a paste is a chemical and I would never put it on my goats, like packhillboers said it should be illegal. 

So I don't know about everyone else's goats but my goats pee if they are in pain or stressed out. I've only had a couple goats actually pee while dis-budding. They hate having to get held down the most.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

CanucksStar-17 said:


> goathiker- It is still on there longer then burning is. As catharina said how are you going to prevent it from getting in their eyes or on udders or their siblings? As packhillboers said, Quote "Disbudding deadens the nerves quickly and it stops bleeding. Whereas chemical paste is a prolonging issue that slowly eats away which in my opinion is awful." Using a paste is a chemical and I would never put it on my goats, like packhillboers said it should be illegal.
> 
> So I don't know about everyone else's goats but my goats pee if they are in pain or stressed out. I've only had a couple goats actually pee while dis-budding. They hate having to get held down the most.


I've done the paste several times with success... You leave it on for 20-30 minutes... I always hold the kids during this time.... Or have someone hold them. Only one cried and cried. No peeing either... After the timing is up, I put a rag over their eyes and spray Apple Cider Vinegar to deactivate the paste and rinse with warm water after that. That is how I do mine... So the paste doesn't get everywhere. So not sure where your info is coming from, but only one of mine screamed bloody murder and I've done about 8 so far...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It's just like having a wart burned off, it feels intensely cold.


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## CanucksStar-17 (May 3, 2013)

janeen-As I said the paste is on a lot longer then when you dis-bud. We burn the horns for 15 seconds tops.

I never said that if you use the paste they pee. I was just saying that burning the horns sounds bad, but if my goats don't pee then it obviously dons't hurt them or bother them. Not saying the paste does.

I'm getting my info from people who have used a paste and have had a terrible experience with it. 95% of the people I've talked to have had a bad experience with it. A couple people haven't had any problems with it but I hear more bad experiences then good ones. 

goathiker- I've had a wart burned off and oh my goodness did it hurt. I haven't heard one person say that getting their wart removed wasn't painful. So if it feels anything like getting your wart removed then I wouldn't do it to my goats.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Just like I'm sure having a rubber band around your testicles involves pain, so does removing horns, no matter which way you do it. We all want what's best for our animals and that's why we're here, so everyone has to make their own decision about what is best for them.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I thought this thread about dehorning paste was really good and informative: 
http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f217/dr-naylor-dehorning-paste-good-bad-114725/

Lots of folks have knee-jerk reactions to disbudding paste. I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to _any_ type of disbudding, period and probably wouldn't mind seeing all types banned. But emotions aside, it is good to keep differing perspectives in mind and to realize that there are good and bad ways to do almost everything.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Huh, I've had many warts removed from various areas and it never hurt until after it blistered later, then it was more of a stretchy sting than a true pain.


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## CanucksStar-17 (May 3, 2013)

So I'm going to apologize. When I reread my posts it kind of looks like I'm saying that using the paste is bad, and I'm just saying the same things over and over and all it is just my opinion. Everyone has different opinions and if I just keep stating mine over and over I will look like an idiot (or more of one). I prefer dis budding (as everyone can see if you read any of my posts, lol) there really isn't a right or wrong way to dis-bud. I feel like I was making it seem like there was. So I'm sorry, and really I don't care what you do as long as your goats are fed and watered and are cared for properly, and so far I haven't seen any people on here who's goats aren't cared for and loved. 

Although I will say this to Damfino- If de horning was banned then I would seriously get out of goats as I have had a horrible experience with horns. But again that is just my opinion


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The main thing is that the forum is here to learn from, to form your own methods based on other people true experiences and even their mistakes. My vet disbuds all of my little ones and he uses whatever method is best for each particular kid. Usually he uses an iron but sometimes he uses a bit more surgical method when the buds are very wide in a little buck. They all recover quickly and are ready to play and eat by the time I get them back home. 

I dislike laws that are designed to take away the freedom of people who are not really doing anything wrong. That's just me though, I'm stubborn and dislike being told what I have to do :lol: 
Damfino and I, if we ever met, we'd either bond like 60 or kill each other, one or the other with no inbetween :ROFL:


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

goathiker said:


> I dislike laws that are designed to take away the freedom of people who are not really doing anything wrong. That's just me though, I'm stubborn and dislike being told what I have to do :lol:
> Damfino and I, if we ever met, we'd either bond like 60 or kill each other, one or the other with no inbetween :ROFL:


HAHAHA! I bet we'd get along just fine!

I feel the exact same way about laws as you do. :mrgreen:

When I say, I "wouldn't mind seeing all types [of disbudding] banned," it's no more than that emotional knee-jerk reaction I'm talking about. In reality I'd be extremely annoyed if it was banned or if everyone was forced to have it done by a vet. For the exact same reason, I am extremely annoyed that ADGA outlaws horns from dairy shows as if there were no acceptable way to keep horned goats. To me it's the same issue but from the other side.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I usually disbud. There was a year I kept two of my wethers horned. The horns were beautiful and while they lived with me I had zero issues. I raised them to be respectful. They were sold as pets with a care sheet specifying training and safety with the horns. Unfortunately things were not done the way I would have liked, and there were issues. After that, unfortunately, I have chosen to always disbud.

It's a shame, but since most of my goats go as pets, it's safer for the goats and allows them to be "spoiled".


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## Haviris (Oct 7, 2007)

I have both, I have mostly boers and as far as horns go I like theirs better then some of the other breeds, but mostly I prefer my does hornless.

I have disbudded, banded, and used the paste in horns. My preference for kids is the paste. At the time I started using it (i raised Nigerian Dwarf goats at the time), it was completely taboo and I could find no one else that used that method (or that would admit to it). There was plenty of negative thoughts, but it was all here say and no one actually had any real experience. It has become a more acceptable method it seems in recent years, and I still haven't heard any real horror stories ( other then people complaining they still got scurs, but that can happen with any method), although some do decide they prefer burning.

Honestly any method of horn removable is going to be unpleasant, for the goat and for the person. You just have to decide what you can live with and, if you choose hornless, which method you prefer.


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## katherineann56 (Apr 14, 2016)

*Caps for horns*

I have heard that you can put duck tape on their horns. Would like to know anything else I can do or put on my goats horns. Don't want my grand kids to get hurt. My little guy like to come up and nail you with his head in play.:new here::hi5:


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

You can put tennis balls on the tips of his horns.
That behavior is aggressive and must be stopped. Tell him NO whenever he tries to buck anyone, and if he doesn't cut it out, squirt him with a squirt bottle of water.


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## JumpingGoat (Mar 10, 2016)

Non of ours have horns and im glad. One especially loves a scratch on the head and if she did have horns it could get very painfull. 
I think you should eather have all with horns or all with out


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

A goat that nails you with his head should never be treated as though he's playing. Goats are not allowed to play with people like they play with each other. Not ever. Not for any reason. It's dangerous. I second the squirt bottle suggestion. This needs to be stopped right away. Your goat is not safe around kids even with his horns wrapped. A goat's skull is thick enough to fracture a child's skull with or without horns. I hope you're able to put a stop this behavior without too much trouble. Goats are fun, friendly pets as long as they know their boundaries. Good luck with him!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

What ^^^ said. Its not your fault for not understanding goat aggression. Takes a few years to get it down. Head butting of any kind. Raising up, presenting horns and flagging tail. Turning around suddenly to stop you, are all signs of aggression and that goat is testing your rank status. If you dont teach that goat who the herd boss is, he will become the boss and you can look forward to years of him putting YOU in your place as a lower ranking member.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

TDG & Damfino are 100% right--even with no horns at all he could easily knock someone down. No goat book I've read ever talks about goat body language & if you have a buck especially, a bad precedent can be set before you even know what's going on. I thought my boy looked so cool rearing up!  But if a goat is rearing with his body sideways to you but looking at you, he's giving you a challenge you can't ignore--he needs a squirt & a reprimand. Sometimes they'll kind of trot past you with their back hair standing up, face towards you, looking all show-offy--same thing. Crowding, stepping on your feet, blocking your path. I was clueless too at first, & eventually my lack of response to this behavior caused it to escalate. Then I got kind of scared & began to research buck behavior. It took several months with the spray bottle always in hand before I got things under control. In my personal opinion, not knowing you or the goat, he doesn't sound like he should have the grandkids in his pen--they're smaller & he'll have even less reluctance to butt them than he does you. Maybe they can just feed him treats over the fence? Or at the very least, have an adult hold him on a leash for the kids to pet.


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

<<<I have heard of people getting seriously injured by horned goats...just by accident. Not a fan of the horns...I disbud all my kids.>>>

A few years ago now a woman and her husband who lived down the road a few miles from us, were foot-trimming their Angoras when the doe she was trimming suddenly began to struggle. A horn got caught in the woman's throat and although a district nurse lived close by, there was no saving the poor woman. This was purely an accident.

I don't mind the look of horned goats but all here are hornless.

camooweal


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I have horned goats. I do not allow small children in with them. I also don't restrain them in a way I will be hurt. They are all trained and taught respectful behavior. It's very much trained though, they seem to be naturally naughty.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Oh
Also. I have a harder time medicating polled/disbudded goats in the field. Horns can be handy.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Well since this came up yet again, here's my opinion...

Choose what you are going to do _before_ you get goats and stick with it. Don't change your mind 4 years in and decide to surgically remove or band full grown horns just so that you can keep the poor animal.

I don't care what you choose but, think about it, and research it before you buy the cheap brush goats down the street...


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Dayna said:


> Oh
> Also. I have a harder time medicating polled/disbudded goats in the field. Horns can be handy.


See, and I feel the opposite. My horned girl is harder for me to medicate. With all my other girls I straddle their necks, pull their head up and down the medicine goes. I can't do that with her, the bigger her horns get the more awkward it gets to drench her.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

^^ I agree with what she said. Much easier for me to medicate disbudded/polled goats.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Lol I straddle and use the horns to hold the head to the side. Then down the hatch. Or just hold horns from the front with no straddle. Maybe it's easier because I learned with horned goats.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

When it comes to meds I like horns better too. I can put them in a head lock with my arm begin their horns and they can't get away. I straddle the no horn ones but it's a total rodeo they will go forward and back. But I'm also small and they are big lol but I do have to say even with the fight I can walk away without a bruise, can't say that for the horns  so for me there are pros and cons about both but I still disbud anything that I plan to keep but don't not buy something just because they have horns


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Well, I hold the head so the nose points up (on a horned goat that would be horns pointing straight back) while straddling them. For the big does, I put them in the stand and straddle them. For the big buck I hold his beard  Lol


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

Since I run a rescue I have both horned goats and ones without horns. They live in the same pasture without problems. I insist on anyone close to my goats treat them with respect because they can hurt you. I also train them carefully and get rid of any that stay aggressive. I enjoy my goats and spend time loving on and scratching on them.


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## redpines (Oct 3, 2015)

I have two Boer wethers with horns but all my dairy girls do not (either disbudded or polled). The wethers live with the horses, separately from the dairy girls. I won't have dairy goats with horns, I've passed on animals before because they aren't disbudded. One of the Boers hit me in the jaw with his horn on accident about two months ago and it was a good two weeks before I could eat solid food. I don't care for horns, won't have them again.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

What do you guys think about just blunting the tips of their horns? I was told you can file off an inch or 2. I would think that would make the horns a little safer for people & other goats.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can file down the tips. Won't stop bruises or anything if you get hit by the horns.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

redpines said:


> I have two Boer wethers with horns but all my dairy girls do not (either disbudded or polled). The wethers live with the horses, separately from the dairy girls. I won't have dairy goats with horns, I've passed on animals before because they aren't disbudded. One of the Boers hit me in the jaw with his horn on accident about two months ago and it was a good two weeks before I could eat solid food. I don't care for horns, won't have them again.


I would be worried more for the horses then the goats with those horns. I remember as a little girl going to go look at a horse for sale and they had the horses and goats together and one horse was missing a eye and the other one both. We ended up getting the one with both eyes to get that rotten punk out of there. But they also fed them all in the same place. But if you look at the horse the goats horns really are perfect eye level. There might be more to that situation then what one could see but it hit me big time and I went around and put new fencing around my horses pen that the goats couldn't get threw so there was no accidents


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Yikes! Horned goats have traditionally been housed with horses for hundreds if not thousands of years in all parts of the world but I've never heard of any horses missing eyes from it! But I guess anything can happen. My horned goat was raised with horses and would intimidate my mare who was a total milquetoast, but none of the others put up with his nonsense. He picked fights with the horses constantly but was never allowed to win. Even with horns, he was still only 200 lbs. vs. their 1000 lbs. and the horses knew it even if the goat didn't. One time he did manage to intimidate an elk that tried to take his hay. The elk came down and chased all the horses away from their hay one night, but my greedy, stubborn goat wouldn't relinquish his food to any mangy old elk. She struck at him with her front hooves and he backed up, charged, and planted both horns smack into her chest with an almighty thud. The elk tried once more before she changed her mind and moved to another hay pile. 

I keep my horned and non-horned goats together and don't have any problems. None of my horned boys are mean to mamas or babies. My horned goats like to spar with each other and my dehorned goats like to spar with each other, but I rarely see horned vs. dehorned except among babies, or if the horned one is younger and smaller than the dehorned one. 

I think the most dangerous phase for horns is when the babies are a few months old before the horns begin to curl back, and especially while the "baby horn" is peeling. They can get super-sharp at that time, and often there are some nasty shreds hanging off that can easily snag and tear skin if you're not careful. I watch for these shreds and will peel them back and twist them off or trim them short and blunt with hoof trimmers so they can't accidentally scrape me or their mothers' udders as easily. I also watch the tips of the horns at this stage because this is when they can get very sharp. I cut the very tips with a pair of horse hoof nippers to blunt them if necessary. This is also the time when they are most likely to get their heads caught in fences. Luckily it does not take them very long to grow out of this phase.


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## redpines (Oct 3, 2015)

Jessica84 said:


> I would be worried more for the horses then the goats with those horns. I remember as a little girl going to go look at a horse for sale and they had the horses and goats together and one horse was missing a eye and the other one both. We ended up getting the one with both eyes to get that rotten punk out of there. But they also fed them all in the same place. But if you look at the horse the goats horns really are perfect eye level. There might be more to that situation then what one could see but it hit me big time and I went around and put new fencing around my horses pen that the goats couldn't get threw so there was no accidents


My guys have really curved horns (to the point I have to file the tips so they won't grow into their head) and the horses watch out. My older mare thinks the goats are her babies and they've lived together for five years now-she'd be heartbroken if I took them away. I'd never have one with pointy horns in with the horses, I've seen a horse get gored in the leg and incur $1000+ of vet bills.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Jessica--how did the blind horse do?


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## chandysiegman (Jun 22, 2016)

All mine have horns except one rescue that came to us without horns. He is the hardest to give shots too and when when he gets out I have nothing to grab. I love my horns makes it easier on me. Plus I put up small wire and haven't had heads stuck very often anymore.


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## oakenhaven (Apr 7, 2016)

I let all my goats keep their horns. They are there's to keep. I have pygmies, boers and a big Alpine with huge horns. He's a sweetheart and we've never had issues. My one Pygmy was disbudded before j got him and the breeder did a horrible job they've grown back towards his eye so we have to trim them down. I refuse to put him through the trauma of being burned again. I don't have any issues deworming, none of them like it and try to run but the ones with horns are actually easier


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

catharina said:


> Jessica--how did the blind horse do?


Sorry just saw this. I guess fine we didn't take it we got the one with both his eyes


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I have one lone horned wether who's about to go to freezer camp. I've seen him trying to hook one of my does with his horns when I put her in with the buck, who the wether lives with. So, he's gotta go. I will never take even a free goat with horns again.


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## nanasee2 (Aug 7, 2016)

I have 2 8 week old pygmy billies. Was going to have them disbudded but read how painful it was and am reconsidering. Wondering time to disbud and band.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Disbudding should have happened as soon as the buds popped through the skin. Banding can be done from 8 weeks on.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I would band and then burn as soon as the horns come off.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I disbud. All,the way. Only time I haven't was when I was sick for two weeks and by the time I could, it was too late


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I won't have a horned goat, I don't care how well bred or what a great producer he/she is. Too much liability and chance of injury to themselves, me and the other goats-not to mention the fencing and structures. I had horned Boers for a while, but I was disbudding the kids.

I have seen way too many horned goats die when they get their horns tangled in the fence, a tree notch, a horses halter, another goats collar, a hay feeder. My friend lost a very expensive Boer buck when he got his head/horns stuck in the crook of a tree and broke his neck when another buck butted him. $2500.00 and a sweet boy down the tubes. She also lost a couple of does she bought from me when they got their horns stuck in the fence and another doe rammed them.

I had a dairy buck I bought who came with horns. He got his horns stuck in my stallions halter when the stallion put his head over the stall to "visit". (they were great buddies) When the horns got stuck, the horse jerked his head up, breaking my bucks neck.

Many years ago, I rescued a Togg/Alpine doe who had horns. She was a sweetheart. One day she was up on the milkstand. When I was done milking, I turned her loose. As she jumped down, she suddenly twisted and my thigh got caught between her horn tips and her back. When she landed, her horn tip drove straight thru my muscle and right down to the born, tearing as it went. That was 30 some odd years ago and I still have a huge scar from it.

I've seen way too many torn doe udders and cuts and bruises on humans from horns. No horns on my place...ever.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Just an interesting update: purchased a dehorned, 4 year old Nubian and put her in with my horned Kiko yearlings.

The Nubian is definitely the herd queen, and I'm actually glad she doesn't have horned cause she can be nasty!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol my queen for years didn't have horns. My 10 year old lamancha doesn't have horns either and there's only a few does who she will back down to and I don't blame the ones that stay clean from her because she is a nasty ear puller! But actually as I sit here with a wad of toilet paper in my ear because I took a horn to the ear getting my daughters Doeling on the stand I'm even more anti horns!! I HATE THEM!!


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I have to put in a word for horns I guess! You do have to be careful around them, but nature gave goats horns & they're a living part of their bodies. They also help keep the goats cool in hot weather, which is why fiber goats are "allowed" to keep their horns. Other breeds that get to keep their horns include Boers & San Clemente Island Goats.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

All Swiss breeds were polled before the British messed with them. Saanen and Oberhasli in particular NEVER had horns and most Toggenburg and Alpine were culled for horns. The British took the stock and bred them to native goats reintroducing horns. If they are so necessary why are they a recessive gene? Waddles are proven more involved in cooling than horns and most people breed them out even though they are a dominate gene :lol:

I had a goat gutted by a horned pack goat once. He gored him right between the hind legs and ripped his stomach open.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

All I know is my disbudded goats go right along with my horned goats and that's during the summer as well. I don't see a difference in the two. I do agree you have to be careful and respectful of horns, it really wasn't all the goats fault (I was still royally ticked at her but I shouldn't have tried lifting her like I did) I also know what's coming when I put those little suckers heads between my legs to give them shots or what not but still it's so convenient not dragging them to the stand or tying them up but I still love my disbudded goats. I actually just went to a coalition sale and picked up a polled boer just for the fact she is polled lol I didn't need another goat but you betcha if she has polled kids they will be here for life......well no polled girls I should say


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

goathiker said:


> All Swiss breeds were polled before the British messed with them. Saanen and Oberhasli in particular NEVER had horns and most Toggenburg and Alpine were culled for horns. The British took the stock and bred them to native goats reintroducing horns. If they are so necessary why are they a recessive gene? Waddles are proven more involved in cooling than horns and most people breed them out even though they are a dominate gene :lol:
> 
> I had a goat gutted by a horned pack goat once. He gored him right between the hind legs and ripped his stomach open.


Really? That's very interesting... All the more reason I want a polled herd...


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

goathiker said:


> All Swiss breeds were polled before the British messed with them. Saanen and Oberhasli in particular NEVER had horns and most Toggenburg and Alpine were culled for horns. The British took the stock and bred them to native goats reintroducing horns. If they are so necessary why are they a recessive gene? Waddles are proven more involved in cooling than horns and most people breed them out even though they are a dominate gene :lol:


I'm curious where you learned this about the Swiss breeds all being polled? How long ago was this, and why would this recessive trait be intentionally bred back in if horns are so undesirable to most people?

I'm also curious how wattles can affect body temperature. Where can I read studies on this? I'm having trouble understanding how a body part with no major blood vessels can help regulate temperature. Also, if wattles help cool the goat, wouldn't it make sense for them to be more prevalent in hot-climate breeds such as Nubians and Boers than in cold-climate Swiss breeds? And yet the opposite is true. I'm very intrigued by this information and curious where it came from!

Personally I have not noticed the slightest difference in heat tolerance between wattled and non-wattled goats in my herd, but ear length does make a difference. The Alpines have a harder time on hot days and tend to lay in the shade more. Incidentally, my Alpines all have wattles, so I'm not seeing any physical benefit from these intriguing little appendages, although I think they are adorable and I wish all my goats had them if for no other reason than cosmetics.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh gees, I'll have to go look up the info again. For a long time I had an old dino of a computer that I saved everything on but, I killed it :lol:

I'll try to do that really soon. The study I read was done on the African miniature goat and single lateral waddles were less effective than double lateral. If you go up from the waddle and toward the face you can find the gland that the waddle is attached to, just follow the little string.


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

I can't say that disbudding isn't painful. We've today just done four young Nubians at five days old. When let loose after disbudding they ran to their mothers, had a feed then started skipping and bucking again as though nothing had happened. 

Horns can be painful though. When penning up for shearers some years ago a Merino wether ran full tilt into me and I can tell you, I could still see the remains of that bruise almost three months later! 

camooweal


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Damfino said:


> Personally I have not noticed the slightest difference in heat tolerance between wattled and non-wattled goats in my herd, but ear length does make a difference. The Alpines have a harder time on hot days and tend to lay in the shade more. Incidentally, my Alpines all have wattles, so I'm not seeing any physical benefit from these intriguing little appendages, although I think they are adorable and I wish all my goats had them if for no other reason than cosmetics.


I agree, wattles are so adorable!! I can't believe some people remove them! I wish my breed had wattles!

Your observation on ear length makes perfect sense. Many desert mammals have large ears, including Jack Rabbits, desert foxes & some desert cats.

It'd be interesting to see if there's a correlation between horn size & hot environments for antelopes, gazelles, or other horned (not antlered) animals. I wonder if it's super hot were Watusi cattle originated, or if the big dewlaps on some cattle help with cooling.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

camooweal said:


> I can't say that disbudding isn't painful. We've today just done four young Nubians at five days old. When let loose after disbudding they ran to their mothers, had a feed then started skipping and bucking again as though nothing had happened.
> 
> Horns can be painful though. When penning up for shearers some years ago a Merino wether ran full tilt into me and I can tell you, I could still see the remains of that bruise almost three months later!
> 
> camooweal


To this day I am still amazed on how well the kids take being disbudded! I tried explaining this to one of my buyers who just thought I was the spawn of the devil for disbudding but he wasn't having any of that. I have to admit if I didn't see it with my own eyes I would probably be a little questionable of it too lol


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## ButtinsandBeaux (Jul 28, 2016)

*Wish my goats didn't have their horns!*

I have two Dwarf Nigerians. Brother & Sister. Husband wanted for them to retain their horns. Fast forward a year...I now need to sell them. I'm having a difficult time finding a buyer because of their horns!


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

IDSaanens said:


> No horns because I had a disabled husband that got cold cocked when a doe swung her head to go after an itch on her back. I did have a Boer doe that had horns and seemed to be in the middle of the pack. Then I took a bunch to show and when I came back 4 days later, she thought she was queen. They were all doing their herd dominance thing when I saw her lower her head and bring it back up and slit a doe from brisket to jaw. I grabbed her, shaved the base of the horns, put a couple notches in and banded with 2 bands each. About 3 weeks later, they fell off and her attitude improved.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4405681/ and https://www.facebook.com/groups/CloveOilDisbudding/ are two websites that talk about using Clove Oil as a method of disbudding. I am going to start doing that in the dairy herd I am manager of. Within 3 years we are hoping to have 600 head kidding and milking. If this works as people say it does, it will be easy to do and less painful.
> IDLaura


I know some folks that tried this and did not have a good experience. Clove Oil is toxic. 
In the study that you include the link to (which I have read)they only did one horn.
When you do 2 horns, you are doubling the dose of clove oil.
I know a couple of different breeders who tried it on some wethers that would have been used for meat and had some that died.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Studies on Wattles

http://www.academia.edu/3130964/Coa...d_Extensively_Reared_West_African_Dwarf_Goats

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ijaaar/article/viewFile/81472/71649


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

And this is interesting. In showing the difference between hot climate animals and cool climate animals it also follows that Swiss goats would not have the thermo-regulation through their horns of African goats and would in fact possibly be trapping heat in.

Animals have evolved to adapt to their environment but this adaptation takes many thousands of years.
An animal from a hot climate cannot suddenly switch from using their horns to cool themselves to
stopping that heat loss. It is worth noting that antelope originating from Africa have actually been found
to have frostbite at the tips of their horns when they are kept in zoos in cold countries - the cooling
effect of having horns cannot be controlled by the animal. Further to the research showing the
difference in temperate and tropical cattle breeds the same team in later research argued that
differences in horn morphology between temperate and tropical cattle appeared to have evolved as
adaptations to restrict heat loss in the former while facilitating heat loss in the latter group.
Therefore temperate cattle breeds;**such as the Dexter originating from south west Ireland, the
Hereford originating from England, the Devon cattle also from England and many others will have horns
but these are not a major part of their cooling process. In fact, according to the research quoted above
their horns are adapted to restrict heat loss.

Whole study abstract
http://animalwelfareapproved.org/wp.../07/TAFS-11-Horns-and-Thermoregulation-v1.pdf


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

That's really fascinating information, Goat Hiker! I hope I get time to read the study before I forget all about it!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Studies on Wattles
> 
> http://www.academia.edu/3130964/Coa...d_Extensively_Reared_West_African_Dwarf_Goats
> 
> http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ijaaar/article/viewFile/81472/71649


This was a hard paper to read. I admit I don't think I really understood it. And it doesn't answer my biggest question which is, if wattles help cool the body temperature, why are they less prevalent in African breeds than Swiss? Makes no sense to me.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Because of the beliefs of the African people. That is included in one of those studies. The people claim the black wattled goats are healthier and bring better prices in the market. The goats without wattles were used mostly for sacrifice and are believed to be bad luck because of the history of the gods they no longer worship. 
Of course when white men came to buy goats from them they sold them the "bad luck" goats :lol:

These studies are done on West African goats, our Boers and Nubians came from South Africa and are a long way from being purebred. 

Boer Goat Timeline
Origin
The development of the Boer goat in the early 1900’s can be traced to the Dutch farmers of South Africa, but the origin is unclear to know exactly where the Boer came from.
Breeding and Selecting
In July 1959, breeding and selected became regulated with the founding of the Boer Goat Breeders Association (South Africa) and a truly improved Boer Goat emerged because of the formulation of breed standards as guidelines for selection.
Brought to New Zealand 
Boer goats were brought to New Zealand for implantation in 1987 and 1988.
Brought to United States
The original US breeding stock came from herds located in New Zealand. Then later they were brought in directly from South Africa. The first full-blood Boers were brought into the United States in 1993. The start of the Boer goat meat industry in America.


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## ardeano (Aug 17, 2016)

I was considering applying horn caps either of brass or solid hard rubber balls. My concern is the attachment, I know about the rich blood flow so I'm not going to do anything to potentially cause a hemorrhage but the attachment of the balls....., would there be a problem with the adhesive being epoxy as in toxicity?


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

What a cool idea to try permanently attaching caps! Since the last couple inches of horn doesn't have a quick (there must be a proper term but I don't know it!) you can probably do most anything to it. One thing came to mind-would there be an kind of entrapment risk with balls-like he would put his horns through something & the balls would get stuck?


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