# Why all the color controversy??



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Before I start I apologize in advance but this is an issue that bothers me. 

Why is it that people have a failure to evaluate a goat for what it is? Why do people have such an issue showing their colored goats against traditionals? I'm really not understanding why they have to be so defensive. I like color and traditional.... I guess that really I just like a good goat. Regardless of color, I look at structure and volume and muscle and mothering ability. With that said I don't care for people to say that is impossible... it's not. I have seen some colored goats that I feel would take just about any traditional it is shown against. At the same time I see breeders who breed only for color and ignore structural correctness. 

I just simply do not understand the craziness over it. Show structurally correct animals and show what you like. Nobody is stopping you. And there is absolutely no reason to think colored goats need their own shows. I think Crossroad Boers have proven that along with a few other breeders


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

This is something that crosses all species, not just goats. We get so caught up in a color or designer look that we forget that the animal still needs the correct structure underneath it all. I had someone ask to breed their blue-eyed paint stud to my blue-eyed paint mare cause she wanted blue eyes. One look at the stud and I refused....absolutely the last horse I would ever recommend as stud quality! I personally really like unusual or loud color on my animals. Always have. I've had to learn to look past the color for conformation. But...I can still appreciate a structurally correct plain colored animal and given the choice between color and correctness...I WILL choose conformation. 

I know that some judges have trouble looking past the color too. We've had a goat judge at our county fair that will place a red-headed boer at the top of the class every single time...regardless. I know this because I've seen him glance at the non-traditional colors and send them straight to the bottom of the class and never look at them again. I"ve seen market beef judges do this years ago with black...if it wasn't a black steer, you might as well not even show! (I know people who used boot black and spray paint to turn their steers black...nothing like having one of those brush against your Charolais and leave a huge streak of black....and judges use to carry rags into the show ring with them to clean their hands!) I do believe they have gotten past that to some degree but you will still a higher percentage of black steers win shows. Look at the Arabian horse breed...they are breeding for head and neck and have almost forgotten the rest of the animal. 

It kind of appears to be human nature to try and manipulate nature to "design" what we think is the prettiest animal without regard to function.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

First totally agree with this!!! And I admit I love color the more different the color the better in any kind of animal....I like different  right now where I'm at people are going ape crazy over color. A example. A friend bought a dapple buck and got some really cool colors....body wise I say are OK nothing to get excited about nothing to really say ewww about. She has already sold her month old buckling not a paper on the. For $600!!! I am also trying to dip into color. I think I have alright stock and I want good money lol and color right now is the good money. Now I don't care how pretty the doe is if she is a crap mother always gives me singles or any of my other cull factors they are gone. So I guess I'm trying to play into both worlds right now....I'll let you know how that works out lol. As for shows I have no clue about anything to do with shows but I must say in a show it should be about what animal no matter what color is the best in the Boer breed not color.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

That is very true! I just don't understand it. We should all have the same goal... meat animals that will last out on pasture and still produce fast growing kids with high carcass merit. But that seems to get lost alot. Some of the color goats resemble dairy and then the owner gets mad when they don't win.... well I wouldn't take a boer cross to a Dairy show and expect to win. 

Cattle are a whole other ball game! Some of those people get crazy over it... I know some of those people lol! I'm not a horse person so I don't pay much attention to how they are bred but I can see what you mean. 

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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

A lot of those people breeding dapples aren't breeding for meat though, they are breeding for color. Other people see how much dapples are going for and then decide to get into the goat business. They buy a dapple buck and then stamp a big price tag on the kids. Not every buck born should stay a buck but apparently if he's pretty to look at he gets to keep the danglies regardless of how nice his structure is. 
Now back to the original post. I don't see why colored breeders wouldn't want to go up against traditional. Without a doubt there are more quality bucks that are traditional than colored. That is something to strive for though. For me I breed for color but I'm trying to breed up by breeding to nicer bucks and I've considered finding a nice traditional buck to breed to some of my girls to help with structure. I don't see why they would need their own shows either. If a breeder doesn't think that their colored goats are as nice as the traditionals then they have some work to do. 
I've got to admit that Crossroads has some of the nicest colored goats and is definitely one of those breeders that has goats that I strive for mine to someday look like. If they were closer I would be buying as many kids as I could


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree as well, the overall goat, should be nice, not just great color. 
The association's have breed standards and it is called "good conformation", doesn't matter what the goats color is. 
There are some really nice colored ones out there, that have both great things to offer, those goats are worth investing in and will move your herd goals forward quickly.
When spots/dapples ect appeared and were wanted so desperately, most breeders soon forgot about, what we are breeding for. "A beautiful quality animal", all the way around. They did not realize it is setting them back in their herd goals, to get that color in there with no conformation at all. Of course, when colored genetics were introduced, they weren't that great in conformation. And sadly, breeders still to this day, are not breeding properly to get get both, they focus on color and over charging getting ridiculous prices. 

I for one want both, conformation and color. I won't buy a animal just for color, especially for a higher price. I will buy an animal worth it to me and will be bettering my herd. We work so hard for great conformation and to get a goat that is lacking, but has great color, to me is not that smart to do so, as an investment.
To show an animal like that, just because it has really nice coloring is not the right thing to do. It is sad for sure.

Any Colored goats can have just as nice conformations, as any traditional, just breed them properly and to the right Buck or Doe, you will get it.


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## luvmywaggintails (Nov 18, 2013)

I agree with everything said. There are many animals (not only goats) that people will pay big dollars for because they have 'nice color' hoping to breed that into their herd. Probably many disappointments too that they spent the big dollars and didn't get the color. Genetics is very complicated with many factors involved. I think it is fun to experiment as long as we remember what is important in our animals and why we breed them. Color is never guaranteed.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Where is the controversy? Are you talking about facebook, Dani?

I like goats and particularly Boer goats, of any color. The thing I like about the colored Boers the most is that, in general, I think they are easier to sell. I've noticed that some of my goat breeder facebook friends are getting close to 100% color from their color breedings. My theory is the "supply" of colored goats is going up. My question is then will the price go down? generally speaking...


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> Where is the controversy? Are you talking about facebook, Dani?
> 
> I like goats and particularly Boer goats, of any color. The thing I like about the colored Boers the most is that, in general, I think they are easier to sell. I've noticed that some of my goat breeder facebook friends are getting close to 100% color from their color breedings. My theory is the "supply" of colored goats is going up. My question is then will the price go down? generally speaking...


I do already see the price going down. The dapples are much like the solid black that was the big thing for awhile as well but its getting more common. One man around me was one of the first to have dapples around here. He got good money for his dapples but they are getting a bit more common and last year didn't get his asking price. This year he has paint and traditional kids no more dapples.......and they are nice stalky kids at that too. So I think he is going back to looking more at the body then color.
And it is the same with cattle. Black is the it thing. If two say steers walk in looking totally the same in every way but one is black and one is red that black one will bring more money every time even though they will butcher out the exact same.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I feel like some of it has to do with people wanting "crazy" or "unique" animals. Just something to make them stand out and be popular. The cooler the animal looks, the more attention it gets....
But as for the goats, I wish they cared more about the animal's structure rather than color alone. Ok so the goat is eye-candy, but is it gonna improve and correct your herd?
It kind of reminds me of there being two berry bushes with red shiny fruit on one, and a dull blue one on the other. You pick the red one because it's prettier and cooler looking with no thought of what's actually best in the long run, and you eat it. And then you end up poisoned because while the berry was nice on the outside, you realize that it's the inside that counts, and and the "structure" of the berry wasn't good for anything. 
A breeder friend told me that because she believes in the overall correctness of a goat over just looks and color....


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol I like the berry story


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Some of the colored goats I've seen are SUPER disappointing conformation wise, and yet they have a thousand dollar price tag (or more) simply because of their color. I know somebody right here in WA who is selling their goats for thousands just because they have dapples. The goats themselves have terrible conformation. That really does bug me! I know how difficult it can be to find a good colored goat that doesn't cost thousands of dollars. I've been looking for a colored FB show doe for some time now, and am seeing all those jacked up prices. 

As far as people not showing their colored goats because they think they won't place as well, I haven't seen that. For a long time the ******** were (and a good part of the time still are) not as structurally correct as the traditionals, but that fact shouldn't scare a color breeder from bringing their goats to a show if they know they are good goats. 

Last August our red doe won grand jr. doe at a show. She was one of the only colored goats at the whole show, so that was pretty neat. We work hard to breed colored goats that can compete right up there with the traditionals. It's not easy! The judge walked up and started talking to us after the show about how the colored goats have really come a long way in the past few years. I think that's very true.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

The controversy is on facebook. As is most other controversy. 

That is my point with a good bit of colored goats as well, Crossroads Boers. If people focused on conformation then they would do better. In a way the colored goats have been set back in over all quality because of the "all spots and neat colored bucks stay a buck". 

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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I would say part of the reason they don't want to show is they are maybe afraid that the judges will overlook their colored goats and will automatically place them low. I know around here it used to be if you had a wether that was not red headed he wasn't allowed to be shown in the meat class because he was automatically considered not a meat goat regardless of how the goat looked. Some of the color breeders may just think that they will go to a show and the judge will be biased against color and won't judge their animals fairly. I also think a lot of them just flat don't want to show and they just use the "my goats will place lower due to being colored" as an excuse. Why they can't just say "we don't like/want to show" I don't know. The dapples seem to have the worst quality as a whole, although there are some that are very nice. The paints and solids don't seem to be as bad.

With cattle the big thing with black is that whole marketing of "_Black Angus_" It sounds nice, short simple and people think they are eating some fancy type of meat. Most people don't even know that Angus is just a breed of cattle and that the breed comes in both black and red. Just go to McDonalds or Arby's and ask the worker if they know what Angus really is. If you ask me "Charolais" would sound more fancy lol. Black white face cattle are gaining some and those calves tend to top the market. I've got a bunch of black cows that I am going to put a Hereford bull on this year, should be some really nice calves. Of course now if they are at least 90% black they can be considered Angus, so for all we know we are eating a black Holstein


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Well that explains it then. I'm not on FB so that's why I haven't seen it.  

That is very true Dani... and it is unfortunate.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Personally, I have the same issue with breeding for show quality over health & utility. It's more important for an animal to have disease-resistant genetics than to win any ribbons. After all, the real purpose of showing should be to improve the breed, not weaken it by selecting for cosmetic traits (as has happened SO much in dog breeding!!!)
I think most breeders do realize this, but how many actually select for easy kidding, worm-resistance, and general health, I'm not sure.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I don't show, and my kids aren't in a pro level such as ABGA shows, but I have to say... I think color shouldn't matter. I know traditional is well, traditional. But the color goats are such nice animals, they should never be overlooked, or be said to need their own shows.
I know when I go to the kids shows, I always get excited when I see colored boer goats lol

What does make me mad about the whole colored thing though, shows or not is the fact people pass off animals saying they are fullbloods when you can clearly see they are not a fullblood.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Jessica84 said:


> And it is the same with cattle. Black is the it thing. If two say steers walk in looking totally the same in every way but one is black and one is red that black one will bring more money every time even though they will butcher out the exact same.


This reminds me of when I bought a farm in Iowa. This nice old farmer neighbor sort of took me under his wing. He told me "make sure your tractor is green and your cattle are black". I miss that guy.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I had someone actually tell me that their color goats weren't good enough to win points and would never be ennobled so that is why they needed to separate color and traditional. Focus on good conformation and you shouldn't have an issue. 

Wethers are a whole other story. I won't buy a red wether because judges here over look them and I try to keep flashy markings to a minimum. This year I have a caped wether and a red hocked.... that's about all the color I want on a wether because judges can be crazy. Apparently it's impossible to see muscle on a red or black goat? I've never had a problem with it but anyway... I havent noticed that so much in ABGA shows but still, I'm fairly new. 

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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I only know ABGA shows. I think *sometimes* judges have heard enough of the criticisms floating around out there that they try extra hard to be "impartial". I've seen judges that raise only traditional colored goats on their farm seem to really try to use the colored ones. I've seen a judge that *raises* colored goats never use a one in the ring. And I'm talking about pretty much the same set of goats! Ha. I try to resist critiquing judges, but it's sort of human nature to do so. I didn't see this recent FB flare up. I got kicked off the Boer FB group that whines all the time. I don't miss them. I'd guess that most of the colored goat people that would say they don't show their colored goats because they won't win... are probably right. It's not the color though.  When Victoria and Caroline lead Dazzle and Liberty into the ring, nobody wonders why.


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## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

Color does not matter.

There, its been said by a judge lol.

The only thing that irks me...all black "100% purebred boers" I dont think there is such a thing. The black genes come from other breeds.

Now, here is where I get to have some fun as a judge...

Say you have two ABGA registered goats that look EXACTLY the same(never going to happen but hypothetically, play along)

They look exactly alike...one is dapple the other traditional...which do you place first? Let's see who is paying attention


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

That's a tough one cause the dapple would catch the eye first. Anything paint or colored appears heavier, at least to me.


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## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

Lol...

So you would choose...


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

The one with the most muscle, hands down so to speak.


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## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

Remember I said the goats looked exactly the same...muscle, length, breed character etc...

the only thing different in these "twins" is color.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Oops that's what I get for skimming.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Color, LOL :wink:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Definitely the dapple.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm going to be the meanie and pick the traditional... Nothing against the dapples, I think they are beautiful, but to me a Boer is red and white (or black and white), that's how they were when I first started with them and in my mind that's how they still should be not dappled or solid black. I like the solid reds and would probably put a solid red above a traditional. lol


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

At that point the judge would have to use his or her best judgment and go in gut feeling. I havent ever seen an instance where goats are that similar that I couldn't choose the better one. But I suppose at a higher level it could happen. You go with your preference since you are the judge that day. 

It's hard to critique judges. I have a couple I will not show under because they judge like a cattle judge... well because they're raised as cattle people and like a fat goat. That being said I show under any ABGA judge because I don't know who they are for the most part.

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## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

Solid answers and expected answers...

dani- it would never get to that point, any solid judge would be able to look hard enough and find some difference between the two...I just used it as an example to prove a point.

The answer to the question is...it's a tie.

Both animals take first if their bodies are exact mirror images of each other because:

_IV. COLORATION
The typical Boer goat is white bodied with a red head, but no preference is given to any hair coloration or color pattern. _

no preference...color does not matter.

A blue goat could win if its the best match to the breed standards that have been set forth.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

That's what I was thinking. Even something like horn set, pigment or teats could be used in a really tight pair of goats. 

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## NWIndianaBoers (Mar 18, 2013)

I think one of the big problems with color is that so many people think just because their dapple cost $2,000 that it should beat the traditional that cost $1,200. Generally not going to happen. You pay a premium for quality color because there is a lot less years of breeders pushing quality. Just like back in the 90's when it was all the rage to just have a boer goat no matter how it looked and you payed crazy amounts for quality. Well 18 years later their are a lot of quality traditionals and a you pay crazy amounts for the exceptional animals. Give color another 10 years and the playing field will even out. Heck in the past couple huge strides have been made. Bringing in some outside blood even at the risk of not getting that treasured dapple I believe is the key. You can't expect a dapple sire and dapple dam that both can't compete in the show ring to then produce a kid that does. Though they may produce a kid that sells for $5,000 plus. I saw a $6,000 dapple doe not even make the cut at the Indiana state fair in 2012. Was she bad? No! But she wasn't as good as those traditionals. Cross her with a champion paint buck and her kids might be ready to compete. Cross her with a $5,000 dapple buck and must likely kids will also not make cuts though she will have stacked color blood and might even sell for more even though she will not be as good.


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## RumHollowBoers (Jan 31, 2014)

Color was traditionally a cull factor in SA boer goats... I think it has just taken a long time for them to get up to snuff with the traditional colored boers due to this.. Over time hopefully we'll see better and better built paints, dapples and solids..


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I have and see, really nice built colored boer around. They are already here.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

I've always bred for correctness in breed and body type in all my animals. I love flashy coloring, but I would rather have a correct plain colored animal than a flashy animal with horrible conformation. 

I had some very nice, flashy colored Boers when I had them. They were just as well put together as the traditional colored ones.


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## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

Correctness in relation to breed standards should be priority #1...color secondary.


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