# Weak goat kids selenium deficient



## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

We have twin boer goats who were born small, but healthy. We have figured out a great deal about the issues we are facing with them, and are curious for some input on what else we can do to help them! 

Basically, the farm and the goats have been mineral deficient, and had been very low on selenium. 

We have given them the copper bolus, selenium plus E gel, manna pro minerals, have top fled the creep grain with kelp, they do eat some hay, which is a decent quality hay,...

We started them on Replamin for goats at 5cc's for five days. 

The one twin does struggle to keep up and does drag his legs yet. After today, he has two days to continue getting the Replamin plus.

Any ideas?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

How old is the twin and how much Replamin are you giving?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

She said five ccs daily for five days.

It might take a little while to come into effect. He might have been more deficient than the other.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

5cc is for an adult.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

How old are the twins? Karen is correct...5 cc is an adult dose....don't want to over do. How is moms health? Have you had a fecal done? have they every had severe worm load or have you checked to see if they have tape worm? Hows their color on their lower inner lids? What about horn growth? normal? or slow?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

So, this is the mom with her twins.

Other than be very small at birth, 3.5 and 4 pounds, they have been very healthy. Mom hasn't had any issues since birth, and she is very attentive to them. In fact this mother, Brownie has improved in health Massively! Her coat and all have gotten to be beautiful! She was a homely goat! Is! All brown, and goat like! But through the help of this forum, she is so much healthier!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Chip is on the left and chocolate is on the right.

Both have weak legs, but one more than the other.

Yes, we started with the 5cc's and have one day left on this Replamin. I don't believe they actually swallowed all 5 of the dose, but am only going on the reports I get back. Mom is receiving this as well.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Selenium Deficient goat kid weakness*



Suzanne_Tyler said:


> She said five ccs daily for five days.
> 
> It might take a little while to come into effect. He might have been more deficient than the other.


So, this photo is of Brownie, the mom/doe, in April versus how well she looks in the above pic is of her now! Amazing coat and body difference!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

One twin is now 28.5 and the other is 24. They are two months old


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*selenium deficits eye check Weight kids*



happybleats said:


> How old are the twins? Karen is correct...5 cc is an adult dose....don't want to over do. How is moms health? Have you had a fecal done? have they every had severe worm load or have you checked to see if they have tape worm? Hows their color on their lower inner lids? What about horn growth? normal? or slow?


Yes, all good suggestions and reminders!
They began very very TINY!

Photo is of them running outside, next to Brownie, the mom.

Chip was 3.5 pounds and in 8 weeks is up to 28.5 pounds.

Chocolate was 4 pounds and at 8 weeks is 24 pounds.

Chocolate has weaker legs than Chip, but they both have weak legs unfortunately.

Not sure how soon he can give the Replamin plus gel again, or the Selenium plus E Gel?

Any thoughts?


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

The selenium/e gel is normally given monthly


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you gave them 5cc of Replamin for 5 days in a row, I'd wait at least a couple weeks. Replamin is done weekly normally and I'd probably do 2cc per little one.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Weak legs goat kids anything else*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> The selenium/e gel is normally given monthly


Once a month sounds like the proper directions.

It just seems like there should be something else we can do or give them to help the one especially recover better use of his legs.

Any ideas


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

You can give e gel capsules more often, it'll help the selenium to be more effective.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*E Gel capsules for weak kids*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> You can give e gel capsules more often, it'll help the selenium to be more effective.


So, we can squeeze out the E from one capsule and give to each kid every day, or just once a week?

We gave them pro biotic plus two weeks ago. Can they have this, pro biotic plus and some of the E squeezed out? Or would this be too much?

What about the mom? Should we be giving her something extra, as she is still nursing them and she was obviously mineral and vitamin deficient?:thinking:


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

What are the ingredients in the probiotics plus?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Pro bios weak legs how often*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> What are the ingredients in the probiotics plus?


I meant to post the pic of the label! Here it is


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Hmm, I would probably give one gel e capsule every other day for a week and then see how they're doing.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Weak legs in kid help Vitamin E*



deerbunnyfarm said:


> Hmm, I would probably give one gel e capsule every other day for a week and then see how they're doing.


Ok

He seems to be getting weaker, I am hoping he can bounce back! His back legs are so weak.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Do they have access to free choice loose minerals?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Weak legs minerals*



Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Do they have access to free choice loose minerals?


Yes, they have access to loose minerals
Manna pro goat minerals

However we switched to these minerals during their moms later pregnancy, and all the goats on this location were and are recovering from selenium deficits.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did you ever give him cod liver oil? I wonder if he needs that.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*weak goat kid legs cod liver oil*



ksalvagno said:


> Did you ever give him cod liver oil? I wonder if he needs that.


What does cod liver oil do? How much would I give him? I am interested and will pick some up asap!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you do a search you should find the dosage or Goathiker knows.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Dose cod liver oil for weak kid*



ksalvagno said:


> If you do a search you should find the dosage or Goathiker knows.


Thank you! I just sent a question, and hope this or something helps "Chocolate!"


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

How much cod liver oil would I give a 24 pound goat kid with weak legs and why? How often?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

For a 30 lb kid I would give 1/2 cc twice a day for 3 days. Then go to twice a week for a couple weeks and see how they are then.

Cod Liver Oil contains high amounts of vitamin A, Vitamin D, and certain enzymes. It cures and prevents contracted tendons, rickets, and muscle cramping...


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Cod liver oil weak legs*



goathiker said:


> For a 30 lb kid I would give 1/2 cc twice a day for 3 days. Then go to twice a week for a couple weeks and see how they are then.
> 
> Cod Liver Oil contains high amounts of vitamin A, Vitamin D, and certain enzymes. It cures and prevents contracted tendons, rickets, and muscle cramping...


Thank you! I even purchased cherry flavor!

Crossing my fingers it works!


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Those front knees look swollen. Have you considered joint ill??


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Selenium deficit joint ill?*



sassykat6181 said:


> Those front knees look swollen. Have you considered joint ill??


I am not familiar with joint ill? His back legs are the difficult ones for him to use. Does that matter?

Both goats had their umbilical cords dipped in iodine and didn't have problems with infection after they were born. I did see a possible connection with the cord, with what little I have read on the subject. But, I was there when they were born, and saw him dip the cords and saw the follow up with them.

He is going to call the vet to see if we can get a script for bose and perhaps the vet will have some insight?:thinking: not planning on any, but he can ask. The vet is more into cows.:thinking:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Cod liver oil weak legs selenium*

We started giving the cod liver oil for 3 days, twice a day! Hoping that helps!

Calling vet shortly to determine if we need a script for a bose injection on these kids, and if so how soon can we safely give it?

Our doe-mom was selenium deficient, as is our region and her food and minerals were for most of her pregnancy. This farm is very new at all of this, and the goats have been a challenge!

The twin kids just finished the Replamin plus gel, and also had probiotic paste with extra vitamin E gel squeezed in their mouths.

We have been adding extra kelp in their creep feed, which they eat.

Also crushed a vitamin B complex people vitamin for them and mixed with water, vit E, twice a week ago.
The one twin has been leg dragging, white muscle, likely, and/or also joint ill?

They did get one copper bolus.

Think this is it!

Not sure if the one will regain his leg use??? :thinking: We sure hope he can, as he is really struggling!:-(


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would get fortified B Complex injectable. They would absorb it much better.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Fortified B complex weak legs*



ksalvagno said:


> I would get fortified B Complex injectable. They would absorb it much better.


Thanks! We will check with the vet, to see if we can give that right away!

Is that by vet script? Guess he will tell us.
:thinking:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No. You can get it at the farm store.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I suspect that these kids have Sway Back. In this case all you can really do is hope that they can over come it.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Sway back weak legs*



goathiker said:


> I suspect that these kids have Sway Back. In this case all you can really do is hope that they can over come it.


What is sway back? They were for sure selenium deficient, as all our goats at this farm are and were most surely.

Is sway back from same deficit?

If I can upload a video you will see what I mean about his legs


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*B complex Bo-se injections*



ksalvagno said:


> No. You can get it at the farm store.


He bought some at vet of both Bo-se and B complex.

Waiting for vet to call back

How much do we give of Bo-se? Of vitamin B ?

Is it too soon to give this as he just finished giving the Replamin?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Swayback is from copper deficiency in the doe. The kids are born with a defect in the nerves that causes the covering to deteriorate. Sometimes the damage never stops happening, sometimes the damage stops but the kid is permanently damaged, and sometimes the kid will very slowly heal.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Sway back or what?*



goathiker said:


> Swayback is from copper deficiency in the doe. The kids are born with a defect in the nerves that causes the covering to deteriorate. Sometimes the damage never stops happening, sometimes the damage stops but the kid is permanently damaged, and sometimes the kid will very slowly heal.


Try to upload the video of this guy-it's a bit far away


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Video -hoping it attaches


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You have to upload the video onto You Tube and then post a link to it.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Video goat kid weak legs*



goathiker said:


> You have to upload the video onto You Tube and then post a link to it.


Finally! I got it uploaded! I hope it works!

I just got another one that is probably better yet, but try this one first






:ram:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*joint ill sway back selenium copper*



sassykat6181 said:


> Those front knees look swollen. Have you considered joint ill??


Ugh!

So, this is the second video of the little guy struggling!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Poor thing


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*goat legs what can we do?*



Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Poor thing


Oh, I know! We have been doing all we can to help him, but seem to not be getting very far!

The vet did call us back and said perhaps the goat kid was injured. Then he would recommend some type of steroid or something. I don't believe it was an injury as everything this farm has learned is that the farm and land are selenium deficient, and our goats and animals were both selenium and copper deficient. So, I can't help but believe the issues with his legs don't have something to do with one of those things?!

Who knows?

And, can he recover at all? ugh...poor little guy!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yep, that is pretty typical Swayback... 
About all you can do is wait it out and see if he learns to cope.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Poor little guys.
I hate to ask, but what is their fate? If they are intended for meat, I personally would put them down humanely


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdrTaU7kvV3YsR13PjnTWHw


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Sway back losing use of legs?*



goathiker said:


> Yep, that is pretty typical Swayback...
> About all you can do is wait it out and see if he learns to cope.


Aww, darn, you mean he may be permanently damaged, or even get worse? Ugh,..this is so sad, we all feel so bad.

We gave him and his twin one each of a copper bolus on the 20th of June. Is it too soon to give him another?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Wheelchair for goat*



goathiker said:


> ...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdrTaU7kvV3YsR13PjnTWHw


Aww... This seems all so sad. Thanks for the suggestion! Gosh don't you think the other goats would be jealous of something like this? They are so curious!:laugh:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Sway back bad legs*



goathiker said:


> Yep, that is pretty typical Swayback...
> About all you can do is wait it out and see if he learns to cope.


Ugh, so far he is, but not sure. Hoping


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Bad legs fate?*



sassykat6181 said:


> Poor little guys.
> I hate to ask, but what is their fate? If they are intended for meat, I personally would put them down humanely


Oh, I know! We haven't given up yet, but it looks bleak, from all info coming in.

June 20th he had one copper bolus, when can he have another?

Anyone experience this?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Copper bolus at this point isn't going to fix him. It's a birth defect. Copper bolus shouldn't even be given to a goat under 3 months old...
If you already gave the 5 days of Replamin, I would continue that once a week at the 2 cc dose.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I hope he makes it


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Thanks for the good luck wishes!

Yes, we will continue the Replamin for him and all the goats, once a week.

Ugh, hoping he can recover somewhat, he is a sweet little goat!

Why is it the friendly ones seem to be the ones with the issues?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Well, he gets all the extra attention, which makes him friendlier.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

The kids :baby: :baby: have received a great deal of attention, as they are so adorable! 

Double attention, as this farm has dealt with some frustrating, sad and tragic early miscarriages/abortions by some of the goats, and even some of the does. A big learning curve on the deficits some of these animals came to us with, coupled with our own mineral deficiencies.:faint:

:cowboy:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im so sorry you are dealing with this. Thank you for sharing...this is good info and the video gives a Face to sway back. Sending good wishes!!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Sway Back Copper & Selenium deficits*



happybleats said:


> Im so sorry you are dealing with this. Thank you for sharing...this is good info and the video gives a Face to sway back. Sending good wishes!!


Thank you happy Bleats! I am getting over my state of, "Disbelief..." Sadly, but trying to get past it.

I felt as if we were getting past many of these deficiencies, and had learned how to sufficiently amend our feed program, minerals, supplements, and overall care on the goats...we have adjusted and changed so many aspects of their overall care! The forum has been :hi5: AWESOME, including yourself, Karen, TDG, Goathiker, and EVERYONE! Seriously, we have gained so MUCH knowledge!

Our goats are eating better, have better feed, ...etc! Having hay tested, before purchasing, working on getting ours up to speck(if that will even be possible...time, time...)

So, basically, this was just a sad :hug:setback, and reality after all we have went through with the goats. He was one of the few(one of three actually) who survived to be born, to be stricken with this....still so sad...

We had recognized the severe selenium deficiencies that the feed, and soil in our region posses, and had really seemed to solve that, along with the copper deficits by doing the copper bolus, and such.

Not sure when we should give another copper bolus to his mom, as she had been given two on the 28th of April. I know in reading others on here, that they give them anywhere from 2-6 times a year, but not sure what will be necessary for this farm? :thinking::book:

We just give the Replamin plus Gel, for 5 days and will continue to do so every Sunday. Some have gone exclusively with the Replamin, and others with Replamin plus the bolus twice a year. Any thoughts?
:thinking:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I do believe we will see more and more deficits in minerals..we started coppering twice a year and now do it 4 times a year...I have started to include and slowly going over to use herbs...I have seen some improvements with them..I do have replamin as well...but we try to stay non gmo, so will only use in the non milkers as needed...its very hard to find that line..hard enough to deal with gmos and to add mineral def. to the mix UGH...such a battle...Im hoping the herbs give us an edge. I would stick with what you are doing...copper is slow to correct...and you really don't want to over do either...you can add copper rich foods like organic Sesame seeds to help...


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Sway back copper organic seeds*



happybleats said:


> I do believe we will see more and more deficits in minerals..we started coppering twice a year and now do it 4 times a year...I have started to include and slowly going over to use herbs...I have seen some improvements with them..I do have replamin as well...but we try to stay non gmo, so will only use in the non milkers as needed...its very hard to find that line..hard enough to deal with gmos and to add mineral def. to the mix UGH...such a battle...Im hoping the herbs give us an edge. I would stick with what you are doing...copper is slow to correct...and you really don't want to over do either...you can add copper rich foods like organic Sesame seeds to help...


Awesome! Organic sesame seeds have copper in Them! Good to know these things! We will have to stay in contact! The farm is working to get the land to be certified organic-and what approves that all is!!! Plus, the goats and lambs-seems even more challenging-& keeping all the manure separated ...etc!

But truly, this farm has paid a high price for the deficits-I still wonder how goats survive some of the impoverished regions they are seen living in elsewhere!

The goats have it so good on the farm!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Dandelions are also high in copper


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*copper how many dandelions?*



Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Dandelions are also high in copper


I see you are correct? Well, dandelions are easy enough to find! 
How many can he have a day, without causing runny poop or upset stomach?

He is only about 24 or so pounds, the other kid is 28. The other kid is 54, and the two mothers are all in one penned inside and outside area. The creep feeder is inside, and only the two small goats can enter the creep area.

Thank you!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Dandelions are great for many things...even salad lol, we are actually growing them on purpose here lol.....I bet a small handful twice a day wont hurt...just watch his poops and adjust. also with the sesame seeds, I feed only a small amount daily for a week then once a month or so. I think I give about a teaspoon for small tots ( organic is expensive lol)


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Sway back & copper rich organic snacks*



happybleats said:


> Dandelions are great for many things...even salad lol, we are actually growing them on purpose here lol.....I bet a small handful twice a day wont hurt...just watch his poops and adjust. also with the sesame seeds, I feed only a small amount daily for a week then once a month or so. I think I give about a teaspoon for small tots ( organic is expensive lol)


Aww this is pretty funny, and interesting! I am starting to think these little goats are going to be eating better than us! Lol!

Organic sesame seeds!

As it turns out the land the goats are on at the farm is actually considered organic, which I just learned is the case! Mainly though, we need to get all the paperwork to get it certified -that will take some time yet!

Not sure the official title will make much difference at this point, but we will get that done in time.

I question whether we can truly raise the goats, and even the lambs, to meet the organic requirements!?...

First, we need to get them healthy with the minerals, the copper, selenium and all of that.
:crazy:

:lovey:


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

happybleats said:


> I do believe we will see more and more deficits in minerals..we started coppering twice a year and now do it 4 times a year...I have started to include and slowly going over to use herbs...I have seen some improvements with them..I do have replamin as well...but we try to stay non gmo, so will only use in the non milkers as needed...its very hard to find that line..hard enough to deal with gmos and to add mineral def. to the mix UGH...such a battle...Im hoping the herbs give us an edge. I would stick with what you are doing...copper is slow to correct...and you really don't want to over do either...you can add copper rich foods like organic Sesame seeds to help...


Why do you think this is happening? How have goats been surviving all these thousands of years without eating little pieces of copper and concentrated mineral supplements? Sometimes other imbalances can interfere with the absorption or use of nutrients or minerals. (I drank 2 litres of cola a day for several years & now have osteoporosis at age 54 due to all the phosphoric acid in the soda. Some experts say that eating too much protein can also cause osteoporosis because it has to get turned into uric acid to be eliminated.)


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You are forgetting that soil is becoming more and more deficient of minerals. Our soil now doesn't even have half the minerals it did in the 30's.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Less than half? Wow. I didn't know it was THAT bad. Sounds like collecting browse from places that aren't farms is a good idea; the soil won't have lost all its minerals, right?

I finally gave in & ordered copper boluses today. Everything about my goats looks great except their tails, & it's been a while since I took away the salt/mineral block to force them to eat the loose minerals. The yahoo search also turned up an experiment that showed copper boluses started reducing worms within 2 days of administration, & had made huge reductions after a couple months. Final selling point!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

happybleats said:


> Dandelions are great for many things...even salad lol, we are actually growing them on purpose here lol.....I bet a small handful twice a day wont hurt...just watch his poops and adjust. also with the sesame seeds, I feed only a small amount daily for a week then once a month or so. I think I give about a teaspoon for small tots ( organic is expensive lol)


We grow it on purpose here too!
It's great in stir fry and fried rice


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> I am starting to think these little goats are going to be eating better than us! Lol!


I know mine do!! lol..


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Soil depleted raising healthy goats*



catharina said:


> Why do you think this is happening? How have goats been surviving all these thousands of years without eating little pieces of copper and concentrated mineral supplements? Sometimes other imbalances can interfere with the absorption or use of nutrients or minerals. (I drank 2 litres of cola a day for several years & now have osteoporosis at age 54 due to all the phosphoric acid in the soda. Some experts say that eating too much protein can also cause osteoporosis because it has to get turned into uric acid to be eliminated.)


All very interesting, and perplexing as well!

I guess when it comes to people eating, all good things in moderation! I am terrible to diet or eliminate something I like! Say I can't have it, and I want it! So, I say God created all of these great fruits, meats, etc...but not to overdo it on any-variety.---also, I really attempt to stay away from anything with extra processing, additives, preservatives, etc. not all natural, or anything, but aware, and growing, freezing, preparing much on my or our own! :dancedgi: still eat many things not so great, but overall, trying to do eat and drink sensibly! Also, not buying meats and vegetables raised from far away places, or not sure of where it was raised or grown...if you know what I mean!

Now, with these goats! Oh my! I think many of us are analyzing and trying to get this right!:thankU::lovey:

I am determined to make it right by the goats we have!...very challenging!:help:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Copper bolus reduces worms*



catharina said:


> Less than half? Wow. I didn't know it was THAT bad. Sounds like collecting browse from places that aren't farms is a good idea; the soil won't have lost all its minerals, right?
> 
> I finally gave in & ordered copper boluses today. Everything about my goats looks great except their tails, & it's been a while since I took away the salt/mineral block to force them to eat the loose minerals. The yahoo search also turned up an experiment that showed copper boluses started reducing worms within 2 days of administration, & had made huge reductions after a couple months. Final selling point!


Interesting! I have been reading so much, but I saw that too! Maybe the same info, on the copper benefitting the worming!

Regardless, we are copper deficient, so trying to help the goats out!

But, it is all a balancing act!:dancedgi::lovey:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Coping with sway back pain?*



goathiker said:


> Yep, that is pretty typical Swayback...
> About all you can do is wait it out and see if he learns to cope.


Do you think the little guy has pain?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I doubt it, but I've never heard of swayback before this 
Does he seem to be in pain?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Pain? Swayback and copper*



Suzanne_Tyler said:


> I doubt it, but I've never heard of swayback before this
> Does he seem to be in pain?


I didn't think so, but I am not his primary caretaker as the farm is taken care of by our son. We have animals here too, but are nearly two hours away. So, I can't see him everyday! I just don't know if this condition causes pain?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No he's not in pain, his hind legs are partially paralyzed... They only work part of the time. It's the motor nerves that are affected, not the pain receptors.

Be really careful with Sesame Seeds, most are grown in China and Thailand... Plus, they only contain minerals that are left in or added to the soil at this point in our decay. Plants don't make minerals :lol:

And watch this there is _nothing_ organic left in out country.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Nerve damage what can be done?*



goathiker said:


> No he's not in pain, his hind legs are partially paralyzed... They only work part of the time. It's the motor nerves that are affected, not the pain receptors.
> 
> Be really careful with Sesame Seeds, most are grown in China and Thailand... Plus, they only contain minerals that are left in or added to the soil at this point in our decay. Plants don't make minerals :lol:
> 
> And watch this there is _nothing_ organic left in out country.


I didn't get to watch the video, but agree with growing plants in mineral deficient soil creates plants that are deficient! THIS IS PART OF THE SOURCE or root :sigh: OF OUR PROBLEM HERE, ANYHOW! So, if we would have known onder: before what we know now, we may not be in the very sad situation with this kid, as we are now.:blue::tears::-|

Sway back, due to low copper, along with selenium which are goats have also been deficient on are issues we know we are dealing with. The hay grown on our land is deficient, and we are working to improve it.

Buying from outside the U.S. is very difficult for us to do! When it comes to our food, if at all possible we either grow it ourselves or buy as local as possible! (We do check closely on this, near as we can tell anyhow). Rarely, is anything we eat grown far away, much less out of the states! Bananas are one of the only exceptions.

Still hoping something can be done for this little guy, but it is looking quite bleak for him. He is having a tough time moving around.:tears:onder::brickwall:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

So, th guy with sway back is really struggling. He doesn't seem to be in pain, but he can't walk around any more. Not sure there is anything we can do...makes me feel sad, as he is fighting for life, and looks so pathetic! 

We have been giving him water, and he eats his creep, hay, and fresh grass.

Help!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Aw, that's sad


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

I know! 

Sad and can't figure out anything to help the little fighter! ☹


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

maybe a brace of some sort?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Sway Back Copper & Selenium deficits*



happybleats said:


> maybe a brace of some sort?


I thought of that too, but not sure if that is even feasible! Poor guy is fighting so hard to live, and trust me, we have done so much to keep these goats alive...and went through so much with all of them along the way....Ugh, just so sad, I sure wish this wouldn't have had to happen to him. He is really quite paralyzed with his back legs. His mom doesn't seem to want to nurse him any longer and we are giving him water and possibly doing some bottle feeding in the morning.

It looks bleak for him, and realistically, I am not sure what is practical. It is just hard for me to think of ending a life when he is fighting so hard to stay alive.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Wow Odie, I'm so sorry...what a difficult situation.

You see those little carts for dogs with paralyzed back legs, like in the sequel to Babe, where Babe the pig ends up in that house in the city with all those dogs. The one with the cart was called something like Flaylig. The dogs can go potty while using them too. I've seen photos of ones for cats as well. I bet they're expensive though--maybe you could find a used one? Or buy something like a doll stroller & modify it? 

Well, good luck with whatever decision you make or plan you come up with. You know him best & will make the best choice you can.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Thank you.

Poor guy Just sad


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> it looks bleak for him, and realistically, I am not sure what is practical. It is just hard for me to think of ending a life when he is fighting so hard to stay alive.


I understand...we come to a point when we KNOW its not going to get better. Letting him go can be the kindest gift you give. Not the easiest, but it is what we are charged with when we enter this life...to make the best decision for the animal, regardless of what we want. ((hugs))

best wishes


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Brace or wheelchair?*



happybleats said:


> maybe a brace of some sort?


Well, if you have never read or saw the story of ABBY, well, it is just too cute!

I can't imagine doing this, but after seeing Abby's story, see an alternative that is quite heartwarming! 

http://www.floridameatgoats.com/Abby's Story- Part 2.htm


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

What a sweet & encouraging story! Are you considering it? The kid looked healthy aside from the leg problems.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Weak legs a wheelchair?*



catharina said:


> What a sweet & encouraging story! Are you considering it? The kid looked healthy aside from the leg problems.


Well, our son who is in charge of the goat asked for the plans! I don't know that this will become a reality, but it is interesting to consider!

These have been used for various animals and there has been varying degrees of success with them! Dogs, cats, goats, lambs...

This done at UW. http://www.channel3000.com/news/uw-...uild-mobility-cart-for-crippled-goat/32875536

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Yesterday the little guy had a great day! He moved from inside to outside, and back in with assistance, drank water, some milk, ate hay, some fresh greens and loose minerals. Sat by his twin and mom on and off throughout the day and evening...seemed pretty good, albeit quite handicapped....I left the farm feeling sort of ok with him.

Today seems like he is struggling more again, so who knows. The farm will need to determine what to do next and how to handle the day to day and upcoming challenges.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Weak kid and a milker*

Well, just an update on our little guy,...who is hanging on... And really just hanging on. The tough decision will have to be made, which wouldn't be so hard if he wasn't such a little fighter, and seems so eager to eat and drink! He has been giving him whole milk, which he loves!

A cute side story, I stopped at a dairy goat farm that I always wanted to check out...so, I finally did!

Great people and set up!

Interestingly, they have one little goat that likely had a stroke when they went to disbud her,...she was basically totally paralyzed! Zoom forward a few weeks, and they have her in a homemade wooden box/brace that has her now standing and able to hold her head up! :gift: They even have her training to walk and use her legs! Pretty cool and it was quite inspirational to see!:hi5:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Do you think we can give the twin goat brother some of the selenium plus E gel? As we are so low on selenium? 

For the mother of the twins, time to copper bolus again, as her one kid has suffered sway back so badly?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Last copper bolus for mom was 4/28/2016-which was her first copper bolus ever, as far as we know! Keep in mind, that by the time you read this one of her twins is dying from sway back which is the result of copper deficiencies.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can give the selenium gel just not as much as for an adult. I would copper bolus now.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Also, every Sunday we give Replamin plus to all goats


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Sad overnight, as last night Chocolate, our little twin goat of Brownies died of Sway Back. He fought hard and we tried everything we could to keep him comfortable and attempt to improve his condition, but it was too paralyzing for him to move his back legs at all and difficult to even move his front legs towards the end. All due to copper deficits in the mother/doe and our land and feed. After seeing such a striking case as Chocolate was, it gives us every reason to monitor our copper intake at the farm and be sure that our future kids come from moms who are not deficient as she obviously was.

The photo is of Chocolate and Chip:horse::horse: in their early days running in the wind and enjoying life! Chocolate on the left of photo, Chip on right, before the deficiency showed its ugly head.

His twin, Chip is crying out some today in looking for his brother likely. Sad day for him too.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and help along the way for him and the other goats!:thankU:


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I'm so sorry you lost him


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

So sorry you lost him.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Very sorry


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Sway back loss Copper!*



happybleats said:


> Very sorry


I guess it was inevitable, but still sad just the same!

Hoping this is the end of a string of deficiencies that cause problems for these sweet goats...ugh...

Thanks to everyone for all of the help and the suggestions!:cart:

We have learned SO MUCH! :hugs:


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

What sad news! I'm so sorry! :rose: I really can't believe all the troubles you're still having when you have been working at the deficiency problem for months now! The goats must have been already severely deficient when you bought them.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

odieclark said:


> Interestingly, they have one little goat that likely had a stroke when they went to disbud her,...she was basically totally paralyzed! Zoom forward a few weeks, and they have her in a homemade wooden box/brace that has her now standing and able to hold her head up! :gift: They even have her training to walk and use her legs! Pretty cool and it was quite inspirational to see!:hi5:


Some critics of disbudding say this happens when they hold the iron on too long & burned part of the brain. Who knows...I hope she has a good future.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*goat deficiencies copper & selenium*



catharina said:


> What sad news! I'm so sorry! :rose: I really can't believe all the troubles you're still having when you have been working at the deficiency problem for months now! The goats must have been already severely deficient when you bought them.


Thank you. I know, it is so sad, even though we really could see this guy didn't stand much of a chance once he was dealing with the Sway back and reading all I have on it...

It was just too little for him and much too late. As his mom was deficient while and before she was expecting him, it really gave him little chance. Her health had been improving, as have all the goats-because of this forum, along with all we have learned, researched, and observed....

Hoping the future of these goats will be better than how we began. The goats were certainly void some of what they needed before we got them, but we also didn't give them all they needed either. Now, however, we think we have much of that figured out! Even testing and shopping around for hay!

But thank you. I will see the Chocolates twin brother :hugs::hugs::hugs:Chip, tomorrow and am relieved I can give him a little extra attention as well.:hugs::hugs::hugs:


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Other goat with a stroke*



catharina said:


> Some critics of disbudding say this happens when they hold the iron on too long & burned part of the brain. Who knows...I hope she has a good future.


Catharina,

That could have been the situation at that place? I don't know, and they surely felt awful about it. They were really taking good care of the little goat though. It was clearly something unintended. She was just so sweet sitting in her little homemade wooden crate! I know I will go back to see her in the next week or so! :hugs:


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## Mcamden2 (May 27, 2016)

I am seriously questioning if mineral deficiency is the cause of this years weak kid who died at ten days. They have mineral block, salt, and loose mineral. I gave coper bolus last month, but how do I find out what else they need?


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*weak goat kids*



Mcamden2 said:


> I am seriously questioning if mineral deficiency is the cause of this years weak kid who died at ten days. They have mineral block, salt, and loose mineral. I gave coper bolus last month, but how do I find out what else they need?


Melissa, tell me more about your kid who died. Was he a twin? Was he a bottle baby or nursing on the mom?

For us, it was Copper for the guy I was referring to CHOCOLATE who had the Sway Back, as Sway back fits precisely with what he had.

I know, figuring what exactly they all need is so confusing and complicated sometimes...so many variables! Plus, everyone has different set ups, different soil where the hay and stuff we feed grows.

I know our soil is deficient where we are in Wisconsin.

even though our land that our animals are on, is actually organic(even though it isn't actually certified organic at this date)--well, just being organic doesn't mean it is great either! That is a bit confusing and also deceiving.

It is selenium deficient for sure, amongst other things!

More info on your guy and maybe the forum folks can help figure it out...or maybe you have a thread with the information posted? Or as I have heard many say, start a new thread?!

:book:


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## Mcamden2 (May 27, 2016)

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/showthread.php?t=187277


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## Mcamden2 (May 27, 2016)

I'm not sure if that link will work, but it's to the thread about my doeling that died. She was born very weak and her legs were very weak as well. She slept all the time and had a lot of trouble nursing. We tried bottle feeding, but she kept sneezing everytime we tried to feed her. It wasnt until two days before she died that we realized she could drink like a dog. Had we known it sooner maybe giving her milk in a bowl would have worked, but sadley she was just too far gone at that point. The vet said he thought she may have had a heart murmur, but he couldnt actually hear her heart because of the heavy breathing.


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## Mcamden2 (May 27, 2016)

We had a colt born here years ago who was also born very weak, and his front legs didn't work. They bowed out, and the vets (5 in total) said it was either something cows get and he'd recover or it was a congenitable birth defect. We spent months casting him, numerous xrays, specialists from Kansas University, expensive medications, experimental medications, and even homeopathic treatments. Nothing worked, and sadly, I made the choice to end his suffering at 3 months. He had never even been outside, so I carried him to the yard and layed with him while he was put to sleep. It was so heartbreaking that I've never allowed myself to get emotionally attached to another baby. :'(


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Weak legs*



Mcamden2 said:


> We had a colt born here years ago who was also born very weak, and his front legs didn't work. They bowed out, and the vets (5 in total) said it was either something cows get and he'd recover or it was a congenitable birth defect. We spent months casting him, numerous xrays, specialists from Kansas University, expensive medications, experimental medications, and even homeopathic treatments. Nothing worked, and sadly, I made the choice to end his suffering at 3 months. He had never even been outside, so I carried him to the yard and layed with him while he was put to sleep. It was so heartbreaking that I've never allowed myself to get emotionally attached to another baby. :'(


Wow, this must have been incredibly difficult.

So sorry


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

*Weak kid selenium copper & nursing*



Mcamden2 said:


> http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/showthread.php?t=187277


Melissa, I just went back and was looking for some info...saw your post and reread your posting of Doeling barely nurses, sleeps constantly, pants like a dog...anyhow, so very sad. Do you feel yet that the issues you had with her were due to inbreeding? Or something else? Just curious.

I am not trying to dig up or rout up sadness, but really trying to learn why these things happen sometimes.

I know you said you aren't going to get emotionally attached to them again, I wish you luck with that! Gee, if you figure out how to do it...well, start a link and send me the link! I am sad :rose: rayver taking a market lamb that we raised for meat, to the butcher! Still sad, and honestly, I think I will think of him every time I go out by the lambs! :think:

The goats, in particular, can be very confusing.

Our guy, Chocolate, we are convinced we lost because of copper deficiency of our doe/his mom, and the farm itself being deficient. We also had problems with selenium deficiencies as well. Hoping these issues are in better control now.

Also in process of giving all CDT shots, as we don't believe some of the animals ever had them.

I won't drag on, but hope you are doing well and can benefit from the experiences you had as well. We know, how painful the lessons are.

Hugs to you.


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## Mcamden2 (May 27, 2016)

We haven't been able to confirm either way, why we had the problems this year with both of my does. I haven't been able to find out how or where to get our soil tested, and I haven't gotten any help from my vet either. I did give them all copper, and will continue to do so twice a year, and I am hoping my local county extension can help me figure out where to test the soil. I need to go visit with the person whose buck I borrowed and see if they had any issues this year. They are just two miles down the road, so that might help me determine if its mineral difficiency (they don't grow their own hay or graze like we do). 

Like most 'goat people' I am learning as I go along. After 5 gallons of wasted milk I finally was able to make mozzarella today! I couldn't belive it, but the only thing I did different was follow the steps for the gal online who does the 30 minute party trick. The proportions and temps were almost identical though! Oh well..

If you shoot me a PM, I can let you know once I find out more. 

Melissa


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