# Copper and Selenium - Trying to learn the signs



## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

You guys are probably already sick of me...But this forum has made me question a lot and notice a lot.

My next question is whether my doe has copper and selenium deficiency. We just got her on Saturday and she is prego (due May 18). Here are the pics (mind the poop lol!)

Now I cannot recall if she had a little cream on her white coat or if her tail was flopped over when I got her because I was not looking for it! Now all I look at are my goats coats and tails. Let me know if you think she is deficient, if so I need some advice on how to get her healthy for her babies. The lady who we got her off of told me she has never had a problem with her and deficiencies. Thanks, again..


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

I would say she is selenium deficient
here us a good product I use from Tractor Supply (not sure if you have TSC there in Canada or not)
https://www.statelinetack.com/item/...37sN-8I4Pqe7jwXR8AGecEgHEYc2w7AhoCqfcQAvD_BwE

Its is hard to tell if white goats are deficient in copper, so i would look at her FAMACA. Search goat FAMACHA scoring on the web and a million things will pop up
If her FAMACHA is low, get a fecal and if fecal is clear i would go ahead and give copper. Here is a good brand of copper boluses.
https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...hUKEwi_79-K_JbgAhVFbK0KHTazDUcQ9aACCEI&adurl=
Do you give free choice minerals. What kind if you do.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> I would say she is selenium deficient
> here us a good product I use from Tractor Supply (not sure if you have TSC there in Canada or not)
> https://www.statelinetack.com/item/...37sN-8I4Pqe7jwXR8AGecEgHEYc2w7AhoCqfcQAvD_BwE
> 
> ...


Thank you!

It is SUPER difficult for me to find anything for goats in Ontario and online everything is US and wont ship here. We do have a TSC but it lacks hard in the goat department. So frustrating! But I will call around and see if there is a store that sells it.

I have not checked her FAMACHA, I will first thing tomorrow.

Another very helpful member on here checked my mineral ingredient list and said it is lower on the end of copper she suggested a copper additive but I cannot locate it anywhere. One feed store suggested one but it says its for cattle and I just don't know if everything would add up properly

This is my mineral 









And this is what was recommended to me to use as well: https://www.pestellminerals.com/product/selenium-gold-120-trace-mineralized-salt-blocks/

I also provide salt and kelp to them.

Thank you very much


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Hi. It is hard to tell from a picture if a white goat is copper deficient or not. How does her coat feel to your hand? A deficient coat will start to feel harsh, and the ends of the hairs will actually start to curl, making the individual hair look like a fish hook.

When I told you about the 4-Plex C, I gave you the link of a man who would ship to Canada. That was the goatworld.com/store/ link. Did you talk to him? He also sells SelPlex, a selenium additive.

Also, since it is a ZinPro product, ask one of the reps for Canada and see how he can help.

The salt block is a fine salt supplement. It won't replace loose minerals, but it may replace your salt supplement. I don't know how much you like your regular salt supplement... But I like that second choice (the one in your link) very much.

But it won't replace enough mineral to use it as your mineral because of that high salt content. They'll stop licking when they have enough salt, not when they have enough mineral. This is exacerbated by the fact that the kelp also has a really high salt content.

For selenium, there is SelPlex, but also Linseed Meal, and ground flaxseed (like from the grocery store?) as good sources of selenium


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> I would say she is selenium deficient


Why would you say she is selenium deficient?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Probably the tail being flopped over like that. Also, because generally they are short on Selenium.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Can you show us a photo of her from the side rather than from above?

Is her tail always in that position? I'm wondering if it has a bit of twist in it (wry tail?)

Her tail definitely does not show the classic "selenium deficiency flop" half way. I don't think she looks obviously deficient at all (until we get to see her pasterns from another photo) BUT a dose of selenium is never a bad idea during pregnancy to prevent weak kids and tough amniotic sacs and low milk supply.

She looks like a very pretty doe in great condition - do you know what type of buck she is bred to?


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Hi. It is hard to tell from a picture if a white goat is copper deficient or not. How does her coat feel to your hand? A deficient coat will start to feel harsh, and the ends of the hairs will actually start to curl, making the individual hair look like a fish hook.
> 
> When I told you about the 4-Plex C, I gave you the link of a man who would ship to Canada. That was the goatworld.com/store/ link. Did you talk to him? He also sells SelPlex, a selenium additive.
> 
> ...


Thanks!! I contacted the rep at ZinPro and he gave me a few options to look into, all 3 did not have the product. I missed the # on the bottom of the link you had originally sent, I will call them today! I tried to give her ground flaxseed today but she did not eat it.

I will see if I can locate the SelPlex as well.

Thank you again for helping!


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Can you show us a photo of her from the side rather than from above?
> 
> Is her tail always in that position? I'm wondering if it has a bit of twist in it (wry tail?)
> 
> ...


I will try and get a picture this evening. I will work on finding something for selenium. We got her on Saturday and I am not sure if her tail was like that since I wasn't looking for deficiencies until now!

She is bred to another Nigerian Dwarf buck, he is a brown and black color - so hoping for some really colorful babies


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Your babies will be gorgeously wrapped!


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## gwith (Aug 12, 2014)

I am trying to learn too. What does the "selenium deficiency flop" look like?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/selenium-deficiency-symptoms.195123/page-2


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Another example: http://www.broodfarm.com/broodingon/2015/1/9/izzys-sad-tail


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

It's a "kink" in the tail about midway that cause the end of the tail to hand down


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

It is a progressive muscle weakness. Starts near the tip, progresses toward the base. Sometimes the flop is straight down, sometimes toward the side. Sometimes it is a curl.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If she is late term preggo, her tail will curve funny like that.
Her coat looks really healthy from looking at the pics.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm not meaning any disrespect, really I'm not. But in my personal experience, that tail, in late term pregnancy, means I'll have selenium deficient kids.
I have a massive battle with selenium, and maybe that is colouring everything for me. So be it. All I can offer is what I know.
That tail means selenium deficiency in mom, kids, or both.

Toth Boer Goats is an amazing breeder, and she knows what she's talking about.

I'm not an amazing breeder, so I definitely know what I am talking about when it comes to kidding deficient kids. Because I've done it!


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

She is not due until May. I will try and get more pictures for you guys!

Is it safe to give her the selenium and vitamin e gel while she is pregnant? It looks like I can order it off Jeffers with a shipping charge (if there is anything else you recommend I buy off this site let me know). Is this something I need to giver her ASAP or can it wait a week or so?

I really just want her and her babies to be healthy


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

It can wait until you get it. You can give while pregnant, That gel is extremely safe, so even if Toth is right and I am wrong, it is hardly possible to harm her with the gel.

We like giving the Replamin Gel Plus, rather than the selenium/E gel, so if Jeffers will ship that to Canada, you might prefer that. I like the Replamin because it is several minerals which work together. It also has Vitamin D. Here is the Replamin
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/replamin-gel-plus 
I like the 300 cc size, because of the Economy. I also ordered the application gun because it works with all the other 300 cc tubes there are, like Probios, etc and it is very easy to use.
But if you can't get the Replamin, there is nothing wrong with the Selenium/E gel, really!


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

mariarose said:


> It can wait until you get it. You can give while pregnant, That gel is extremely safe, so even if Toth is right and I am wrong, it is hardly possible to harm her with the gel.
> 
> We like giving the Replamin Gel Plus, rather than the selenium/E gel, so if Jeffers will ship that to Canada, you might prefer that. I like the Replamin because it is several minerals which work together. It also has Vitamin D. Here is the Replamin
> https://www.jefferspet.com/products/replamin-gel-plus
> ...


Thanks! I am able to get both. If I get the Replamin do you think it would be a good source of added copper as well instead of having to they the 4Plex or related product. I notice the Replamin has 5,200 ppm of copper in it as well. Just a thought.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

Tab Carloni said:


> Thanks! I am able to get both. If I get the Replamin do you think it would be a good source of added copper as well instead of having to they the 4Plex or related product. I notice the Replamin has 5,200 ppm of copper in it as well. Just a thought.


Never mind, it cannot ship here.. Will purchase the other.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I will give my best answer, even though I see you can't make this choice. It may help someone else.


Tab Carloni said:


> If I get the Replamin do you think it would be a good source of added copper as well instead of having to they the 4Plex or related product.





Tab Carloni said:


> Never mind, it cannot ship here.. Will purchase the other.


That depends on a couple of things, really, so it is good you are thinking ahead. You can adjust your other decisions.

Do you plan to use the Replamin regularly, on an ongoing basis? Or as just a "let's get them over a hump right now"? Both are fine, but they have different implications.

If it is a "Just for now" thing, then no. You want to get the 4-Plex C, because you will continue to want those minerals in an ongoing way.

If this is an ongoing thing, then you probably can and should move away from the 4-Plex C. HOWEVER, then your zinc will be more out of proportion than ever. You should plan to order the ZinPro 40 for extra zinc without the copper. Copper to zinc needs to be in a 1:4 ratio. The Replamin has almost a 1:1 ratio, thereby really pulling your zinc down. The ZinPro 40, rather than the 4-Plex C, would be the product you want.

OR... You can find a good sheep mineral to offer as well as your regular mineral mix. That way they can choose the sheep mineral if they need the zinc, because it will have no or little added copper.

Hope this helps.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

gwith said:


> Why would you say she is selenium deficient?


Because the tail is floppy, and it is a main sign of selenium deficancy.


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## Tab Carloni (Jan 28, 2019)

Since someone asked, here are some more pictures of Pebbles


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

It wont hurt to give her selenium gel. It will be good for her and her babies!


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