# Urinary Calculi maybe...help!



## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

*Urinary Calculi maybe...help!!*

Okay, my worst goat nightmare may be happening, and I'm freaking out!

Merlin may have urinary calculi. 
I spent over an hour in the goat pen with him, and he never peed.
He's continually stretching out into the pee stance, but nothing's coming out.
He doesn't seem too uncomfortable right now, but I want to nip this in the bud if I can.

I've looked all over the forum for AC doseage for UC treatment, but can't find anything. 
I'm thinking 1 teaspoon in a drench...does that sound right?
His weight is somewhere around 30 pounds.

I'm in tears right now and want to get on this ASAP! :tear:
I'm really hoping that I'm wrong, but his symptoms are all pointing to UC.


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## rgdlljames (Sep 8, 2011)

Yes, you can put it in applesauce to get it down easier. You may want to do 1 tsp in the morning then another in the evening for the first few days then split 1 tsp between morning and night after that. BUT keep a very close eye on him and if he still can't pee and appears to be uncomfortable call a vet IMMEDIATELY! They may be able to put a cath in to dislodge the stones. I had a wether that I had to put down and a second one that had to have the PU surgery to save his life. So sorry you and Merlin are experiencing this.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Fias co. has a treatment recommendation for Ammonia Chloride. The treatment is close to toxic. so I would consult with a vet for dosage or do very good research.

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/stones.htm


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## Ninja Goats (Sep 6, 2011)

I had one get blocked up this fall. I took him to the vet school. They sedated him and fished out his urethra and cut off the curly end so the stones could pass. They also put a catheter in his bladder to give his urethra a break. And a catheter in his neck for iv fluids over a few days to flush everything out. Now that my normal vet knows about the urethra snipping we'll be able to handle this closer to home if it happens again. Before we did anything he did get xrays to make sure his whole bladder wasn't full of stones, he only had a few inches of them in the urethra. I couldn't afford anything more invasive than what we did.


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## KermitWC (Feb 22, 2011)

I have a little guy who had uc. His bladder burst and he had to get a stoma. Fast foward several months and the stoma closed and he pees normally. Get some ac to treat him. Also make a drench of 1/3 lemon juice, 2/3 water and sugur.


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## S+S Homestead (Jul 23, 2012)

We have a pygmy male that is prone to urinary calculi. According to our vet, the dosage for ammonium chloride is 1 tsp for 100 pounds of weight. So for a 30 pound buckling you should only be giving about 1/3 teaspoon of AC. Too much can be toxic. 

We can't get our buck to take a drench now that he is grown so I make a little "snack mix" with things like chopped apple, sunflower seeds and raisins mixed with about 3/4 teaspoon of AC as a treat in the evening. He is about 75 lbs and we have not have any problems with urinary calculi since we started supplementing with AC.

Good luck with your little guy. Please keep us posted. We ended up with emergency surgery in the middle of the night with our buck when he was about 6 months old. He came out of it fine, but I know how scarey it can be.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Thank you everyone!

I have dosed Merlin with some Fruit Fresh while I was waiting on the AC dosage info. I didn't even need to drench him, he sucked it right up.

Should I wait on the ammonium chloride now, or can I go ahead and give him that too?


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

I would give him the ammonia chloride right away. Not like Fruit Fresh has any active ingredients in it to interfer with the ammonia chloride.


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## S+S Homestead (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree to go ahead with the ammonium chloride right away, if you have some. None of the local stores here is rural NC had any AC in stock so I had to order it online. While we were waiting for the AC to arrive, we just added some apple cider vinegar to his water.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Okay, I've given him some AC...fingers crossed that it helps.

S+S H, I also had to get the AC online. 
When I asked at TSC, they'd never heard of it.


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## rgdlljames (Sep 8, 2011)

Good luck!! Keeping my fingers crossed for you too. ray:


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

sounds like your doing well with treatment, there is also something called acid pak 4 way that alot of people have had luck with, i would pull all food except grass hay also. Please keep us updated, prayers are with you!


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Jodi_berg said:


> sounds like your doing well with treatment, there is also something called acid pak 4 way that alot of people have had luck with


I saw something about that, while I was looking for dosage info.
I'll have to check it out.

Merlin peed...finally! 
It wasn't much, nowhere near his usual amount, and it took him a really long time, but he did it.
I'm so thrilled right now, as I was thinking the worst.

Sorry if this was already mentioned, but should I keep drenching him with the AC for a few days? 
He already gets a small amount every morning with his lemonade, and his minerals have AC in them too.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Jodi_berg said:


> i would pull all food except grass hay also. Please keep us updated, prayers are with you!


This is really making me re-think the grain I've been feeding them.
My plan was to feed them grain until they were a year old, but now I may just stop altogether.
I know some feed their wethers grain, and I'm feeding mine Noble Goat, which does have AC in it...but still  I don't know...


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

Pull that grain, if you think back in the history of goats they survived for thousands of years with no grain, I guess it just mean's extra hay. I have been giving mine 1/4 cup daily top dressed with 1/8 tsp of ac but seeing your guy affected so young I'm thinking about pulling it all together and going with the acid pak in thier water....onder:


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## rgdlljames (Sep 8, 2011)

Soo glad he went pee!!!!! What a relief but if it is UC your not out of the woods yet. I would still give him the AC until you see him go real well...strong steady stream. Even after he he does improve I would still give him a daily dose of AC. My boys are 1 1/2 yrs old now and have given them 1/4 tsp daily for maintenance. We top dressed on our grain (which is Noble goat too). Now that they are old enough we are stopping the grain all together and only feeding good quality grass hay along with the AC. Their PH in the urine should be about 7 or less so if you want to get some test strips you can do the test at home and watch to see when it gets that low. Hope this helps.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

I know someone who almost lost their show wether,they did a treatment dosage for 5 days, and then drenched daily after that, not sure of the dosage for that. But my point being at this point he will probably take long term care.
No more grain, in my opinion. 

other things that can help him at this point are, Dexamethazone(for swelling), banamine for swelling and pain, and antibiotic for infection from irritation.


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

If you don't mind what was their diet?


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## Alanna (Dec 4, 2012)

Hi there, I sure hope you and Merlin are doing ok! We have been dealing with UC for over a year now, and I give my goat a daily tincture of teas brewed together such as Echinacea, Uva Ursi, and Cranberry for urinary health, mixed with 1/4 to 1/3 tbsp AC. This will help prevent blockage. Hope this helps and good luck with Merlin!


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## S+S Homestead (Jul 23, 2012)

So how is he doing?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Prayers are with him! :hug: I know how horrible the fear is. Sometimes UC can be hereditary. What is he getting to eat?


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## KermitWC (Feb 22, 2011)

I would. Coco gets his ac pills everyday. Lemonade once a week and apple cider vinager oncea week.



WillowGem said:


> I saw something about that, while I was looking for dosage info.
> I'll have to check it out.
> 
> Merlin peed...finally!
> ...


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Jodi_berg said:


> If you don't mind what was their diet?


Grass hay, available 24/7.
A 50/50 mix of Noble Goat and alfalfa pellets...1/4 cup per goat per day.
Free choice Manna Pro loose minerals and baking soda.
Lemonade every morning, with probiotic powder and a small amount of AC mixed in.
Chewable vitamin C, 500mg 2x a day.

For treats they get dried cranberries, animal crackers, black oil sunflower seeds, and Manna Pro goat treats.

I know some say the alfalfa pellets are a no-no for wethers, but I read on here that some do feed it to their wethers with no ill effects.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

OH THANK GOODNESS, I hadn't seen your post about him peeing. I would keep up with the AC and remove any grain from his diet. If you want, some goat minerals have AC already added to them, that's what we do. We add minerals with AC to our wether's 1/4 cup of alfalfa pellets (he gets this because we have to separate him so the girls can get their grain without him gobbling it up! But if not for the does getting grain and him being jealous, I wouldn't give him any.)


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

S+S Homestead said:


> So how is he doing?


He seems to be doing well.
I just went out to lock them up for the night.
He was running all over the place, looking for his bedtime bowl of grain. 
But was just as happy with a bowl of a Fruit Fresh/AC concoction I made up for him.

I think I'll be spending most of tomorrow out in the pen, just to keep an eye on him and monitor his urination.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

You are the best goat mommy :hug: I'd keep up the AC for awhile, he may have a few little ones stuck in there. 

Something I did for our wether when we got him back was I would give him a daily "treat". I'd take a "tiny medicine cup-full" (don't know how much that is, haha!) of apple cider vinegar and mix it with a drizzle of molasses and a pinch of sweetener. I gave that treat to him every day, sometimes twice a day, for a few months. I still give it to him every once and awhile -- can't hurt.


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## LJH (Aug 27, 2012)

All fingers & toes crossed that you've got it handled. Give him a hug for me, 'K?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

good luck..Ive never dealt with UC..I try to keep in the know so if things happen I can be prepared...will be following this thread to see how he does : ) Chin up,,,take a breath..you're doing everything right : )


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Get rid of the baking soda. It deactivates your Amonnium Chloride. If you give him a 1/2 teaspoon of AC, he only has to eat a 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda to completely deactivate it. It's better used as a treatment then a constant for wethers. 
For a while here I would put out a salt block. It will make him drink more and help flush out his bladder. I would choose a horse vitamin salt block and put it right by his water source. 
Constant vitamin C has also been known to cause stones in some cases. There are many types of stones, they all grow under different conditions. You want the urine neutral at PH 7. You can buy the stuff for testing a fish tank and test this at home.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

goathiker said:


> Get rid of the baking soda. It deactivates your Amonnium Chloride. If you give him a 1/2 teaspoon of AC, he only has to eat a 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda to completely deactivate it. It's better used as a treatment then a constant for wethers.


Thanks goathiker, I will do that. I just saw something about that in my frenzied research yesterday.


goathiker said:


> For a while here I would put out a salt block. It will make him drink more and help flush out his bladder. I would choose a horse vitamin salt block and put it right by his water source.


They do have a small salt block, but I've never seen them use it. I'm headed to TSC this morning, I'll pick up a horse vitamin salt block, hopefully they'll use it.


goathiker said:


> Constant vitamin C has also been known to cause stones in some cases.


I didn't know that...thanks, I'll cut out the vitamin C too.

I'm open to any advice on what I'm doing, that I shouldn't be.
Thank you everyone!

Merlin is acting normally today, but I haven't seen him pee yet.
I'm running to town to do some errands, and will sit with him for a while when I get home...back to my "pee stalking" post. :wink:


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

goathiker said:


> Get rid of the baking soda. It deactivates your Amonnium Chloride. If you give him a 1/2 teaspoon of AC, he only has to eat a 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda to completely deactivate it. It's better used as a treatment then a constant for wethers.
> For a while here I would put out a salt block. It will make him drink more and help flush out his bladder. I would choose a horse vitamin salt block and put it right by his water source.
> Constant vitamin C has also been known to cause stones in some cases. There are many types of stones, they all grow under different conditions. You want the urine neutral at PH 7. You can buy the stuff for testing a fish tank and test this at home.


Thank you for this info! This is great stuff to know.


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## S+S Homestead (Jul 23, 2012)

How is he doing? Now that you know he is susceptible to UC I would cut out the alfalfa totally from his diet. My vet says it has too much calcium. Once this clears up, keep up a maintenance dose of AC every day for now on. 

I like the lemonade idea and had never thought of giving it to the goats. Do you make your own with fresh lemons? The store bought kind has so much sugar.


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## rgdlljames (Sep 8, 2011)

Wow! Lots of great knowledge on here!  Sounds like he is lots better today and hope it continues. 
I've read somewhere (maybe on here?) that you can bake AC into small cookies and give one to each wether/buck daily? Has anyone heard of this and if so, is there a recipe? I know whoever did this used honey instead of sugar....??


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would worry about the heat affecting the AC if you bake it into something.


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

Plus all the cookie ingredients have an out of whack ca to ph ratio,raisins,peanuts,flour I'm thinking no good!


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## rgdlljames (Sep 8, 2011)

I wondered this same thing about the ingredients and the heat.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Heat shouldn't bother it. In fancier kitchens baking ammonia is comonly used. If you're worried about it though just do a no bake option like oatmeal, honey, and peanut butter set up in the fridge. The AC in your goat pellets is cooked though when the pellets are made. 

Man, I just did a quick search through on the 'net and it's scary how much bad information there is. I came across 4 sites that had a wrong CAH ratio, 3 that quoted the figures for horses (almost even) and one that was inverted backward. If I could find that in 5 minutes, I wonder how badly a new person trying to research is being misled *shudder*. 
I'm so happy that so many people end up here where, we might not always agree but, the info is at least not harmful.

One of the things that is really helpful is to know what kind of stones is most seen in the area you live in. Here Calcium Phoshate is the most common. Followed by silica. Most universities have a large animal program and they can answer that question for you. Then you can research that particular kind of stone and find out how to prevent it.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks again, goathiker! 
You're right, some of the info on the internet can do more harm than good.
Especially with me being a goat newbie, it's really frustrating.
Just when I think I'm doing it right, I find out it's all wrong! :hair:
Thank goodness for The Goat Spot.

So, I finally saw Merlin pee today.
I swear Arthur went three times before Merlin even went once. 
His stream was stronger today, so that's good news. 
I've given him AC in lemonade twice today, and will give him another dose when I lock him up for the night.

Thanks to goathiker's info, the baking soda is gone...the boys weren't very happy about that either. :wink: 
I picked up a horse vitamin salt block (apple flavored), they've been licking it already.
I'm not sure if it's because they like it, or because there's some baking soda residue left in the dish I put it in. 

And no more grain for either of my boys anymore!


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

S+S Homestead said:


> I like the lemonade idea and had never thought of giving it to the goats. Do you make your own with fresh lemons? The store bought kind has so much sugar.


I've done both. 
I use the store bought when I'm feeling lazy.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm so glad he's doing well!! :hug: Phew, what a scare! For a pinch, I actually have something called E-Z P from Molly's Herbals. It doesn't cure UC, but it buys time by relaxing the goat so that he can pee again.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Merlin is doing well today. 

I have a question though...
Every time he pees, he turns his head and watches as he's going.
Could it be because he's uncomfortable?

I noticed him doing it all last week, but thought maybe it was a buck thing...even though he's a wether.  

Now I'm thinking it may have been the start of the UC problem.


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## KermitWC (Feb 22, 2011)

It could be. I would dose him with lemonade every 4 hours.



WillowGem said:


> Merlin is doing well today.
> 
> I have a question though...
> Every time he pees, he turns his head and watches as he's going.
> ...


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

My wether, he was JUST wethered so he is still Bucky will extend his man parts and spray his legs, when he does this he turns his head and watches as well as smelling the pee,it's really gross, but when he just stands to take a pee regularly he looks straight forward. Also the spray when he's marking himself comes out in a more narrow stream but has a much stronger velocity,it sprays out like a rocket. Sorry if its tmi but perhaps Merlin is feeling some hormones, when was he wethered?


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

He was 3-1/2 months old when he was wethered.
His normal stance is the stretch out and look straight ahead too.
He also smells his urine when he's done going, and he smells Arthur's after he's gone.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

My wether does that when the girls are in heat, but he may still have some little stones in there. Just keep dosing him to take care of anything that may be left over.


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