# Buying an ND Buck, Correct Conformation?



## SusanP (Mar 22, 2014)

We've been raising NDs for about 2 years, started just for some fresh milk but absolutely love these little goats and have become very interested in improving the breed, so we are going to get a few registered animals and up our learning curve lol!

When shopping for a buck, what should we be looking for specifically? We're talking with a few breeders in our province and I would like to know specifically what the breeder is referring to when she says a buckling has "correct conformation." What I mean is, what exactly does one look for in a buck to know that he is correct? And can you even tell at just a few days old? 

We want to take our time and make sure we really understand what we're buying, as we made some typical newbie mistakes early on in terms of not knowing what to ask. Thanks for the help!


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I don't know much about ND's confirmation :chin:but I do know you will want to make sure his teat structure is correct, no extras, splits, or anything like that.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Since you are new to ND conformation, what it really comes down to is trusting the breeder you purchase from. There are a lot of factors that gives a kid "correct conformation." For young kids, I evaluate the legs and topline most of all and make sure teats are correct. At a few days old, there isn't a whole lot you can tell yet. Kids change a lot so I am more concerned with what the sire and dam look like. How is the dam's udder? What does the pedigree look like? 

If you find a quality breeder and like what you see, then just ask them about the kids you're interested in and trust that they know what they're talking about. It takes a long time to develop an eye for good conformation. Also, breeders striving to produce the best quality they can aren't going to let many bucklings go. They'll wether most and only leave the best bucklings intact. If you see a breeder selling every buckling intact, then you'll know they're not being selective enough. 

When a breeder says "correct conformation" then they're most likely saying the goat is well conformed to breed standard. 

If you see a buckling you might want to purchase, you can always post him here on TGS in the conformation forum for us to critique.


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## SusanP (Mar 22, 2014)

I've been talking a lot with the breeder and with another breeder who sold her the buckling's dam. They were both a wealth of information and I feel that I learned a lot from them. 

Here are a few pics. The first is of the wee buckling I'm considering at a few days old. The next is his sire, and the next two are of his dam's udder with this freshening. The last two are of the buckling a few days ago.

Everything is normal with his teats, plumbing, etc. His dam's sire has a reputation for improving the udders on his daughters, and I was shown some amazing udder pics! 

The owner of his dam's sire's dam (Duchess) had progressive freshening pics on her website and though I'm no expert, they made me quite depressed when compared to my own girls lol! Duchess was giving nearly a gallon of milk a day with her last freshening, during which she gave birth to healthy sextuplets.

I am leaning in favour of bringing this little guy home as a future herdsire, but welcome any further feedback (good or bad) before making a final decision. TIA!


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

It would be good to have a picture of the rest of his dam, besides her udder. Imho, it's an okay udder, but not outstanding. However, if it's an improvement on your does' udders, you would still presumably be breeding up, if he inherited and passes on those genes.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Is mom a FF? When was the pic taken of her udder? How much does she produce over a full 10 month lacatation?


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## SusanP (Mar 22, 2014)

She is a FF so we don't know her production. The photo was taken shortly after freshening, about two weeks ago. Her sire's dam produced almost almost a gallon a day which I think is quite good for an ND. But I don't know how relevant that is. In any case, we have decided to wait a bit and look around/learn more fist as we are in no hurry. We won't be getting our registered doelings until Summer so there's plenty of time to look and learn before we'll need a buck.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I would pass on him. I dont like the rear leg structure of his sire and his dam's udder still has some flaws.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

where are you located?


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## SusanP (Mar 22, 2014)

In in Canada, west coast. For the sake of learning, would you mind sharing the flaws you see in the dam's udder? I wasn't sure about the rear legs on the sire, might just be the camera angle. I think the little guy's look ok? The sire has a reputation for improving the udders of his daughters, which seems to be his strength.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Some people rarely, if ever, keep bucklings intact from a FF because you don't really know how her udder will turn out in subsequent freshening.


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

Hello Susan P! Here are some of my thoughts on the matter, in rather random order (and more experienced conformation people can set me straight):

-The buckling's sire's rear legs look posty in the photo, meaning post-like, quite straight up and down as seen from every angle. From the side, the rear legs should appear bent at the knee, and straight from the hock to the ground, while the goat standing naturally. Having straight front legs is a good thing, though.

-While the dam's udder looks healthy and all, nothing shameful and I'm sure it gets the job done  , it lacks "rear udder height", which is to say that it should, ideally, start up closer to her lady parts. In the photos, she doesn't appear very full. Normally, pictures are offered showing the udder with a 12 hour fill of milk, and a side view as well as a rear view, to show the fore attachments and the rear contour, and the placement of the teats. As a first freshener, her udder has not reached its full potential, which it will on subsequent freshenings, so it's hard to say too much about what qualities she might potentially have passed on to her son, to potentially pass to your herd in turn.

-The above sentence brings me to my next thought. It's lovely that the buckling's great grandmother had a beach ball of an udder and milked an ocean a day, but how much do you or I resemble _our_ great grandmothers, in appearance or abilities? Assuming there's no inbreeding, the great granddam's genetic material accounts for only one eighth of the buckling's genes. Unless care has been taken to continue breeding wonderful goats to wonderful goats, past genetic glory can get watered down and lost, very easily.

-The buckling's genes come half from his father and half from his mother. These are the goats that we should be most closely studying, in order to guess how he might turn out. I would prefer to see a full view of his/any herdsire prospect's dam as well as his sire, as yours is a dairy herd, and you will be particularly concerned about what kind of daughters he will throw. We have an informal photo of his father; but we have only the rear view of his mother; yet there is more to a doe than just her back end (though looking at the plethora of pooch pics on this site, one might be led to think otherwise!  ). There is a site that shows dairy goat scoring which I will look up and post a link to here; this is part of what you should be looking for--_in the prospective herdsire's dam._

-As far as judging the buckling himself, and what does "conforms to breed standards" mean--well, at that young age, it means he has not only the right number of eyes, ears, etc., but the correct ear shape, eye colour, coat colour, and number of teats for his breed. It is too early, for people like me at least, to foresee whether he will grow into a stunning example of his breed.

-There are various shapes and sizes of individuals within a breed, all conformationally correct. What you are looking for in a buck, is a feature that he has, that needs improvement in your herd. For example, if you are looking to lengthen bodies in your herd, shop for a buck with a long body. He might be perfect for you, but not much use to another breeder, who already has a long-bodied herd, but is looking for a buck with a better leg set. So, what you are looking for, is someone with the feature that you most want to improve in your herd. If you like his offspring but there is something that needs to be improved in them, then you can shop for a buck for them. (Goat shopping, yay!)

This is probably a more roundabout answer than you were looking for, but I don't find it a question that can really be answered in 25 words or less. I hope some of it was useful. (Off to find that link, now.)
http://www.betterhensandgardens.com/dairy-goat-linear-appraisal/ Scroll down to the drawings. Higher scores are better (45 rather than 25 rather than 15).


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## SusanP (Mar 22, 2014)

Wow, that was so very helpful, thank you! The link you posted also helped me understand more what to look for. I'm very visual so pictures are always good lol! I appreciate the time you took to reply in such detail and I will add that information to my limited but growing knowledge.


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

You're welcome!


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