# 1 agressive wether when feeding



## wyowinds (Dec 31, 2009)

I've got 3 Saanen wethers, all 8 months old. One of them is very agreesive to the other two when they are feeding (at the hay feeder, at the protein block, at the water trough). Is it normal for one particular wether to demonstrate that much dominance and agression to the other wethers? Agreession is demonstrated with serious horning in the side and hooking under the belly area of the other two wethers. I'm a rookie and looking for advice. Thanks.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

there a several point to consider:

- yes, one goat among a group normally gets the dominant position and has the right for more space and best of food and right of way - at that age the fighting can get a bit out of hand because they don't have enough experience. An older wether would help keeping the fighting at an acceptable level.

- have all of the wethers been castrated at the same age, with the same method? Have you checked if the castration was successful?

- how much space per goat do your goats have: in general, at the feeder, at the water trough?

- do you have one feeder or several (having more feeding places at different locations in the pen/barn than goats often helps)?

- do you have "structure" in your barn/pen: toys to jump on, sight barriers?

- do they fight all the time? Is it possible that you feed not enough hay and they are contantly a bit hungry? Same with the water

- are there serious differences in height, health and/or weight between the three?

- are all horned?

- have you bought them from the same breeder? Do you know how the status of the mothers was? Are they brothers or otherwise related? Can you check with the breeder about the character of the mothers and father(s)?

- since when do you have them? Do you show or have you showed preferential treatment to one or more of them?

- three or any other uneven number in small groups is often more problematic than an even number (unless you have groups of 10 and more goats).


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

Tie him up while he eats. A lot of times they grow out of it, but you can also step in and flip him when he is being a snot. It's a teenager thing.
You can also use a shock collar on him. This often convinces them that the other goats have supernatural powers.


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## wyowinds (Dec 31, 2009)

Thanks to both of you.
Yes, all three wethers came from the same breeder and were castrated at the same time and same method (bands while very young).
This particular wether is definitely positioning himself to be the leader of the pack. What I would call 'over-aggression' is mainly being demonstrated at the feeder. The rest of the time it is normal headbutting and pushing around and completely understandable.
Likely I need to give them more room at the feeder. The feeder is only about 4-ft wide and single-sided. It would make sense that just giving them a larger feeder, and two-sided, would solve a lot of this 'over-aggression'.
I've began separating him from the other 2 wethers at feed time and obviously that helps with peace at the feeder. However, I'm not sure if that is the best solution and I should just let them figure out their pecking order, hoping they don't injure each other. Thanks again.


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## wyowinds (Dec 31, 2009)

Part 2 of my reply to these suggestions:

Yes, all three wethers are almost the very same size and weight. In fact, they are all either full brothers or half brothers. All three also have their horns and their horns are of almost identical length/build.

Yes, we have lots of structure in their enclosure and lots of toys for their entertainment and training (boulders, logs, stumps, trees that they like to climb up into lower branches, etc).

No, we have not demonstrated any preferential treatment to any of the three wethers; except for my earlier comment that lately I've separated this 'bully' wether at feeding time to help keep the peace at the feeder.

We have considered getting an older wether or two to go along with these 8-month old wethers. It was sugessted above that that may help. We were unsure how an older wether or two would work out with these younger guys. Good idea?

Thanks


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

*Re: 1 aggressive wether when feeding*

This is normal goat behavior. One goat is always going to be the dominant goat and will bully and boss the others around, especially at feeding time. If you remove the bully a new one will emerge to take its place. The issue is aggravated with young goats that have no "real life training" from older goats. They have never learned what "normal" aggression is and may go over board. Goats raised with older more mature goats tend to be less aggressive to underlings when they reach the pinnacle of the pecking order. (This is only my opinion based on observation.)

A recent discovery dealing with elephant aggression seems to match this observation. What they found was that young elephant bulls were much more aggressive (way more that usual) in the absence of a mature bull. They introduced some mature bulls into the area to put the younger bulls in their place and solved the problem.

I think most mammals are the same. Young males left to their own devices can be horribly cruel to their fellow herd mates. A bigger experienced wether may settle them down by asserting his dominance over them and knock your bully back to number two. He will still be aggressive but maybe not as much. You'll have to be careful that the bigger wether is not going to hurt them as well.

You can only do so much about this because you can't live in the barn 24/7 to deal with it. I have used the shock collar method with good results. Its important that you are out of sight when you do it so the goat thinks the shock came from the other goat and not you.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

Rex already said it: an older, well socialised wether acts like a big brother or uncle around the young bucks/wethers. He will split fighting, dominate the younger ones and/or discipline a bully. Right now, they are way too young to have to fend for themselves, in the wild they would live in larger herds with other, older bucks and would learn that there are times when they will loose a fight and how to submit to a higher ranking goat. Remember, mentally they are still kids.

If you can, you could add another feeder in some distance. This is a bit of reverse psychology: the bully wants to have all the feed for himself, so he monopolizes the feeder. If there are two feeders, he has to switch from one to the other (hence the longer distance) and in the meantime the other two can eat at the now free feeder. A third feeder or feeding place (this can be a haybag hung from a hook) would be the optimum because then there's always one place free for every goat. With this much feeding places to protect and defend the bully will stop mobbing because it's no longer economic to spend the feeding time with running from one feeder to the next (they are smart  ).

Some sight barriers can make this easier, too. If he can't see another goat eating, he will be more content with his place at the feeder. I have a similar problem but in reverse: one of my youngsters is mobbed by two of his herdmates during feeding. So I set up three regular feeding places and one (hidden behind the trailer they have as shelter) out of sight of the main group. 

Basically - he most likely will become your leading goat but his "shoes" don't fit, yet.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

> sanhestar wrote: If you can, you could add another feeder in some distance. This is a bit of reverse psychology: the bully wants to have all the feed for himself, so he monopolizes the feeder. If there are two feeders, he has to switch from one to the other (hence the longer distance) and in the meantime the other two can eat at the now free feeder. A third feeder or feeding place (this can be a haybag hung from a hook) would be the optimum because then there's always one place free for every goat. With this much feeding places to protect and defend the bully will stop mobbing because it's no longer economic to spend the feeding time with running from one feeder to the next (they are smart)


This is good advice, also making two entry/exit points in the shed gives subordinate goats extra escape routes so they don't get trapped in the corner.


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## wyowinds (Dec 31, 2009)

Great advice! Thanks!
I love this forum!


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## peak (Apr 27, 2009)

*Re: 1 aggressive wether when feeding*



Rex said:


> A recent discovery dealing with elephant aggression seems to match this observation. What they found was that young elephant bulls were much more aggressive (way more that usual) in the absence of a mature bull. They introduced some mature bulls into the area to put the younger bulls in their place and solved the problem.


this applies to humans as well...very interesting


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## wyowinds (Dec 31, 2009)

It's working... so far so good. 

Thanks to some of the advice above, I am 2 days into using separate hay feed bags for each of my wethers. The bag feeders are spaced out about 6 feet along a fence and already has notably solved the over-agression problem at feed time. The 'bully' wether quickly gave up trying to chase the other 2 off their feed; it was too much effort and they now are content with their separate feed bags (for the most part). Thanks for the great advice... it's working.


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## Alida Bockino (Dec 15, 2008)

I am definitely not an expert but I spend many hours each day with my five boys, ages 7 months to 8 years. From my observations, constant human contact is very important to mold behavior. One thing I insist on is that whenever I am around there is NO whacking, butting or rough behavior going on between any of my boys, even when it involves food. I leave my goats home with goat tenders fairly often and I want both the goats and humans to be safe so I insist on respectful behavior. I know there is rough stuff going on when I am not around, but I think it helps for them to learn that calm, kind behavior is expected--it seems to make the goats calmer in all situations. 

I have never used a shock collar, but I have flipped all of my goats--only once was needed. They know I am in charge and they never test me. Read how to do it in Rex Summerfield's training tips. I am only 105# and I've flipped boys as big as 175#. 

It definitely helps to have ample space, lots of acess to feeders and water and get your goats out to run and let off steam as often as you can. You'll have fun with them too.
Good luck.


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