# Do I Register a Deceased Kid?



## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

My nigerian Dwarf doe had triplets and I ended up losing the doeling due to the vet disbudding her incorrectly. Does she still need to be registered since the bucklings were born as two of triplets? Just wanted to check before I send in their registration papers. Thank you in advance!


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

No you do not need to register a deceased kid. As far as ADGA will know you may have sold her and the new owners never registered her. I've had plenty of kids that were doe/buck twins and the doe kid was registered but never the buck.

I think ADGA mostly has you put how many kids so people can't try to register extra kids from that pairing.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

Okay, thank you! It'll be with the AGS, since that's what my doe is registered with, but i'm sure it's the same. Takes a big weight off of my shoulders, so again, thank you!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sorry about losing your doeling. Yes with AGS you don't have to register a deceased kid.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

Thank you so much, it was a hard loss. It never does get easier, does it?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No it doesn't. Every loss hurts.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

It's that the unfortunate truth!


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

Hi Nubian Nut, I know it's an emotional time, and my heart goes out to you. I've had some heartbreaking and senseless, preventable losses myself this summer. So I really do relate. 

I hope this isn't inappropriate, but if you are comfortable doing so, I'd be interested to hear more about how a) disbudding could result in death *shocked*, and b) what/how was (it) done, what went wrong, does it happen often? I was really surprised to hear that could happen, and then secondarily by a vet. I'll be kidding for the first time and disbudding is high on my priority list; but now I think I need more info. My vet really isn't a goat vet, he's general farm. Now I'm nervous...or at least aware...
Please I hope you don't think it's insensitive of me to ask. 
When you're ready, if you're willing 
Also KSalvagno, I know you're a pro around here so if you want to jump in as well? This is NOT intended to spark a debate on to disbud/not to disbud.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If disbudding is done properly, there shouldn't be a problem. I always give my kids a shot of Banamine 30 minutes prior to disbudding.

I did have a problem one year of several of my kids acting funny and lethargic after a proper disbudding. A shot of Banamine took care of every problem and I haven't had one since administrating Banamine prior to.

Things can happen no matter how experienced the person disbudding is but most of the time it goes just fine.


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## OakHollowRanch (Jun 6, 2013)

Sorry for your loss, and no, you do not need to register the deceased kid. 

I have heard that if held on too long, the brain can overheat. Also, it is possible to burn through the skull. Everything comes with its own dangers I guess.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry for your loss.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

Thank you all so much for the condolences. :hug:

Also, to Sydmurph, you have not offended me in the least! I'd be more than happy to share what happened to educate others. One of the biggest issues was that my kids were too small to be disbudded and the vet should have known that. When my vet seemed to think they would be fine, she proceeded with the disbudding. Keep in mind that they are Nigerian Dwarfs and the big buckling weighed about two pounds and the doeling and little bucking only weighed about one pound each. I'm fairly new to goats and so I trusted my vet to do what was right for my kids. Boy have I learned my lesson. PLEASE wait until your kids are 5-7 days old before disbudding, and a little longer if they are a small breed. I had to learn this the hard way. my little girl was born on October 3rd and I lost her October 7th. 

Now, the timeline of events, shortened of course:
When my vet arrived, she seemed to think the kids would be big enough to disbud and began by shaving their heads. I was surprised that she went right from their into disbudding, as I had her do my Mini-Nubian kids dusbudding earlier in the year and she gave them pain killers but didn't give anything to these kids. She started on the doeling and I knew as soon as she set her down she was fried. Her skull was showing through and her head was bleeding. It was dripping from her right disbudded area, ran into her eye and then was dripping onto the ground. The vet ended up literally cooking her brain and at that moment she was brain dead. The vet went onto the boys and the little doeling didn't move from where she was standing and blood continued to drip. The Momma to the triplets was out and getting a bit upset from the disbudding and getting a bit nosey so I lead her back to her stall and then picked up my little girl. Her eyes were glazed over and she didn't even move. When I set her back down she just stood their with her back hunched, still bleeding. The vet 'jokingly' said, "Better get in there and get a drink! I bet your blood sugar is low!" with a chuckle at the end. Before leaving, the vet wanted to put some blood stop powder on her head and when I picked up the doeling I began to wipe the blood from her eye and there was so much it covered my finger tips. I wasn't really sure what that was all about and thought, no worries, the vet doesn't seem worried or anything about the little girl so everything is fine, right? I couldn't be more wrong. I went down to the barn every hour after the disbudding and she just had a 'spacey' look. She wasn't acting herself at all. Even at 4 days old, she had been exploring and walking around and now all she wanted to do was lay down. I brought a blanket down and wrapped her loosely in it. At about 6:00 pm I went to do another check on her and she was sprawled out away from her brothers. I picked her up and she was limp, but still alive. I rushed for my thermometer but her body temperature was already too low for it to read. I called my mom, bawling my eyes out, and told her something was wrong and to call the vet. Shortly after hanging up the phone she passed away in my arms. 

My mother was infuriate, as to me, these goats are my life. I'm 18 and these goats aren't 'livestock' to me, they are family. When My mom confronted the vet about it, she denied it was her fault and was smug about it and even chuckled about it. She repeatedly asked my mom, "What do you want me to do about it?" How unprofessional and rude. 

I ended up sending her body to Ohio State University to get a Necropsy done so that I would know her cause of death without a shadow of a doubt. So far, the results are that she had a slight defect in her heart, but not enough to kill her. It maybe could have even been something she could have grown out of, I'm thinking. They also noticed thermal lesions on her brain from the disbudding and I'm still waiting on the final report. Needless to say, I will NEVER use that vet for any of my animals ever again and I would advise anyone I meet to not use her.

On another note, still related, one of my Mini-Nubian doelings she disbudded as always been 'off' since she disbudded her. I always said "Oh, it's just Basil!" but now that this happened, I think she nearly did the same thing to her. She has a knot on her head that's been there since the disbudding and, pardon my bluntness, she's a bit 'slow'.

Now, don't let this scare you away from disbudding. Just make sure you're having someone do it that knows what they are doing. Disbudding goats is not like disbudding cattle, cattle have a sinus below where their horns would go and thus it isn't nearly as troublesome to hold the hot iron on their head for an extra second. With goats, the buds are right on top of their brains and as a kid, their skulls are very, very thin.

If you'd like, I can post pictures. They aren't 'gruesome' so I think it would be okay to post them. I can also post pictures of her brothers disbuddings and you can see where she almost killed my little buckling as part of his skull was showing through afterwards. Let me know if you'd like me to post the pictures as I'd like to educate anyone I can about how serious disbudding needs to be taken. It's not a game, it a kids' life.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Are you in Ohio? What vet did you use? That is horrible. I don't understand why the vet wouldn't have noticed a problem. I would have been giving her Banamine immediately. Wow, what a horrible vet.

Sure go ahead and post pictures.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

I'm going to hold back the vets name until I receive the final report, then I'll go ahead and post it here to prevent this malpractice from happening to anyone else. I'll post some pictures now, thank you for allowing me to do so.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

Here is the little girl before I lost her. She's the one that has the white markings on her sides.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

Here is her disbudding pictures. The crystalized red is from the blood stop powder. Notice how close it is to her eye and the fact that her skull is showing. You can even see the difference between the disbuddings on her own head.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

The disbudding of her brothers. Notice the dark color on the first buckling. The second picture of the little buckling you can see it is lighter in color than the big buckling (first picture on this post) but not as pale as the doeling. Also, note the area of skull showing through on the second picture on his right, the left disbudded area in the picture.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What did she use, a calf disbudder? That sure looks like a large area burned.

The kids are adorable.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

The disbudding iron didn't seem that large to me, I would say the iron was maybe the size of a nickel or quarter, or some where in between. Would that be for a calf? Again, I'm still pretty new to goats and I've never had to disbud anything before getting goats.

Thank you so much! They are so rotten


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

what a terrible vet! i'm sad, mad and horrified for you! so sorry you had to go through this. :hug:


btw - those kids are terribly cute!


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

Thank you, nchen. :hug: It's such a frustrating experience because it shouldn't have happened in the first place.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Nubian_Nut said:


> The disbudding iron didn't seem that large to me, I would say the iron was maybe the size of a nickel or quarter, or some where in between. Would that be for a calf?


No that sounds like the right size. She must have moved it around a lot to make a bigger area. Maybe it is the picture making it look bigger than it is. Just amazing (and not in a good way).


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

Here's a picture of her after she passed a way with my cell phone beside her for a size reference. My phone is about 4 and 1/2 inches long so you can kind of get a better idea of her size.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm so sorry you lost her  It looks to me like the vet disbudded her too far over, not even where the horn bud was. That area would be a lot softer and a lot more susceptible to burning too deep. I know on some of the kids it can be very hard to find the bud which is why I like to wait until you can see a prominent bump on their heads (on the doelings anyway) the vet should have made for sure she was burning the bud and not just anywhere on the head. 

For anyone who is new and needs someone to disbud you are FAR better off to find a breeder near you that will do it for you or show you how. They do it way more than a vet does (unless the vet specializes in goats or has their own) and are much better at it. You can even contact your local 4-H or FFA club and see if there is a member who is skilled at disbudding.


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## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

Wow, that's horrible! I'm so very sorry that happened to you!


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## OakHollowRanch (Jun 6, 2013)

That is terrible! I would find some way to report that vet.


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## GoatieGranny (Jul 26, 2013)

How terribly sad. I hurt for you.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

How horrible!! I'm so sorry Nubian Nut.... I can't imagine! I don't have kids of my own, so my little clan are my kids, and that is just devastating. Wow, can't even trust your vet ... That's why I try to do everything myself..., but I have to admit disbudding I would be scared to do. I used the dehorning paste with unsuccessful results, I will try it again, since I think I waited to long, otherwise I'll have someone come and help.


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## LamanchaAcres (Jan 11, 2013)

Wow, horrible vet. We do our own disbudding and with our lamanchas, it sometimes takes almost a week or so just for a little bump to start. We disbud boys at about 7 - 9 days old and the doelings at about 14 - 21 days. It just depends on the size of the bud. At less than a week, especially for a smaller breed is just crazy. Even looking at the pics she burned way to far over. I hardly doubt her heart killed her. Im so srry you lost her. I guess you know for the next batch of kiddos.

Edit: also on the boys, you should just get a bice copper colored ring. You can see how they are pitch black burned.


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

Wow. Just wow. Your story choked me up. Yes I get that accidents happen but when someone makes a 'mistake' and acts like a bid defensive jerk, either they don't know, or know and don't care, and either is completely unacceptable for a vet. IMO, the way it was handled is completely inappropriate and this vet is a goat liability. Even if it was a more trivial matter than the death of one of your kids, the bedside manner is inexcusable. 
There should be a 'vet-interview' checklist! A series of questions to ask our farm vets to work with us. Maybe they don't morally agree with say, disbudding. So then you know to outsource that task to a trusted breeder friend. Or herbal deworming...or myriad things. 
As for 'what do you want me to do'; the vet came to three living kids, and basically left two. I hope she at least is willing to refund her fee as a token of decency. Not that it makes you feel any better for your loss, but why should she be allowed to profit off her malpractice? That's just my two cents though. 
I am so sorry this indignity was piled on top of your loss. None of our goats are just livestock here, and I hope you find the strength through all these supporters to continue being a strong, confident, knowledgeable 'goater'!!

On a side note, nobody mentioned using the paste. Naturally I'm leaning that way. At least death isn't a risk. No need to respond. Not trying to hijack the thread....I guess I've done that enough


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

Oops, I meant 'nobody mentioned using the paste' to mean I hadn't seen anyone say 'hey I use the paste and it's awesome'. I see it was mentioned. I probably should have said nobody *suggested* the paste.


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

This makes me sick. I hope that if the necropsy finds that her death was due to the disbudding (which it obviously was) that you take this to the vet. board and file a suit against her! This is criminal. I am so sorry


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

There is no excuse for that to happen. I would not be paying for the doeling. I am so sorry this happened to you, Nubian Nut. It is inexcusable!


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## Sydmurph (Jun 4, 2013)

I wonder if others on the forum have had this experience with the same vet...just think, if Nubian_Nut had had one fatality and one brain injury, can you imagine how many other little goaties she might have treated, and maybe there are beginner goat owners not realizing where the fault lies. Is there any harm/foul in the OP starting a warning thread if the necropsy comes back positive for vet malpractice?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f1...an-who-mutilated-my-goats-155266/#post1512422

Check out this thread. Something similar happened to someone else.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

This is truly a horror story, it made me sick just reading it. I feel so sorry for your little girl, I can't imagine the pain and fear she went through during this process. I am also sorry for you having to witness it and then lose your sweet baby girl. I can't believe the nerve of that vet, acting like a complete rude jerk on top of killing an animal in her care. I hope you are able to do as the other lady on the board with a similar incident and get her reprimanded by the licensing board.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If you do want to go through the complaint process, these people can help you. Everything is laid out for you to do, plus support from those who have been there.  http://www.vetabusenetwork.com/filecomplaint.htm


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## hearthnsoul (Jul 5, 2009)

Nubian Nut so sorry for your loss! I went through something similar a few years ago, where an unknowkedgeable vet mutilated four if my nigis in disbudding. One of them had the brain swell and nearly died. I just want you to know. I documented the issue, photos and notes after the fact and I went to my states licensing board and filed a complaint. It took me two years and she was just yesterday disciplined. She was put on probation for two years, fined, must take more education courses and is banned from disbudding until she can demonstrates adequate training in this area. A veterinarian should not be allowed to get away with this. I pushed for two years because I didnt want this vet to ever forget what she did to my animals, I did this so no other person in my county has to trust that she knows what she is doing, because she hadn't a clue! I know how hard it is after a loss. I was a mess for a very long time after and it all comes up every time one of these goats has issue with the terribly misshapen horns that grew in that we have to saw down, or they leave eachother a bloody mess. Just this mornjng I was out there with bluekote. Yet upon sharing my story I heard other people who had varying issues with this vet and I was horrified to know no one had ever followed through by filing a report, just like I was doing. So I sucked it up and began my two year journey of holding her accountable so the next person can check her license and see she has had disciplinary action taken against her. Your poor baby died and the one thing the grapevine brought back to me was that her attorney was not too concerned because there was no deaths. Well he should have been more concerned because this will now forever follow her.
Again so sorry for your loss, I have been there and it is something that forever effects you, but give some serious thought to filing a complaint, for your baby and for all the other animals who will be in this vets care.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

Sorry I haven't been to this thread in a while, but I want to thank each and everyone of you for your condolences and helpful advice. Once I receive the final report and I know for 100% sure without a shadow of a doubt what killed my sweet little girl, I will start a new post to warn everyone on here of that vet. I myself wonder how many other goats this woman has destroyed and when I know for sure it was her fault my baby died, I will make sure she never does it again, at least to the best of my abilities.

Thank you so much goathiker, that is a *huge* help. I was wondering what I would do with the information when I get it and I really appreciate that link. 

I've got an entire timeline of events ready and tons of pictures. So sorry your poor babies had to go through what they did, hearthnsoul. I fully plan on taking action to get a 'black mark on her name' so to speak and I'd tell anyone I meet to steer clear of her. The thing that gets me the most is how she reacted to what happened. She will not be getting away this.

Again, a huge thank you from the bottom of my heart! You are all so wonderful to me and have been since the day I registered. An enormous hug goes out to each of you! :hug: :hugs:


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## NoahEm (Sep 19, 2013)

Wow those photos! ::tear:: so sorry you had to go through this.  so sad...


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

My heart aches for that poor baby...


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## hearthnsoul (Jul 5, 2009)

Nubian Nut that is the thing that will always haunt me, the flagrant disregard for the animal. It seems your vet like mine was a woman as well and although it shouldnt mean anything, it is more so disheartening to know a woman could hold such a lack of simple compassion. I think you honestly have enough already to place a complaint with the veterinary licensing board for your state. For anyone else reading this, if anything happens to one of your animals at the hands of a vet, call up the department for the prevention of cruelty to animals for us thats the mspca in my state and have them come out and witness what was done, they will actually take out criminal charges on the Vet. I wish I had known that at the time.


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## AvyNatFarm (Oct 29, 2013)

First of all I'm so sorry for the loss of your little girl. I've had 4 large animal vets refuse to disbud my Nigerian kids because they say it's so easy to hurt them and they dont get any experience with small goats in vet school. The vet I use makes me bring them to her clinic and she actually puts them under a little. We wait until they are 3 weeks old. I'm scared to death to try it myself. Thanks for sharing your sad story. I think some things are different with Nigerians and disbudding must be one of them. :-/


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