# another loss



## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

came home a few days ago and found all four pups with a piece of Bandit in their mouths he was here there everywhere,, needless to say two of the pups are now in Doggie Heaven with two more going there this week, that baby was only two weeks old and the visiting kids on the weekend just loved him and his brother out of all 8 kids that were born here, he was the silver buckskin brother the one I bottle fed..Smokey his brother is just adorable and is spoiled rotten.. constantly wanting to be picked up and held..
we also had a doe attacked that same night, and a goose has to be destroyed and two of the chickens went missing,,,,, she didnt come down to breakfast when I called the herd from the barn and I went to check on her.. she was over in the corner laying down and I could see she had been attacked...rushed her to the vet .. she was shaved down around chest throat and neck area with over 100 lacerations and a severe puncture wound to her left ear none of which needed stitches.. she was very good for the vet and she gave me several goatie kisses while I held her on the table while she was washed and medicated and recieved her shots...
the only time I ever heard her make a peep was on the way to the vets,,
she was sore and in a lot of pain..poor baby..
I had to call hubby on his cell phone (he drives 18 wheeler nationwide) and let him know that if I even caught his labrador with any evidence he was going bye bye also..these pups were six months old and basically went pack mentality 
she also had lacerations around armpits and rear end.. but thankfully none were deep enough to warrant any surgery or stitches..
just looks like someone tried to send her to the shredder
I took pictures at the vets as he removed the hair to show the damage..so this will be in her folder
vet bill... only 70 bucks..
put her right into the tipi with the heat lamp and she is eating fine and comes out when the wind isnt up for fresh air and sunshine to see whats goin on..
gonna pick up some probiotics for here after I finish here..


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh no...I am so sorry ...for all the losses..  ....I will pray ...that the survivors.. will be OK.... :hug: ray:


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh Silvergrama how awful.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

WOW I am so sorry about this. I could not imagine what you are feeling right now. :hug: 

I just pray this little one has a full recovery. It sounds like she will


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

:tears: I'm so sorry. I always worry about dogs when I 'm gone. We picked up an LGD this past weekend for the land we just got. What kind of pups did it? Please don't say gp's. ray: sent to you and the wounded. Speedy recovery to all.

Gina


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

four pups labrador german shepherd crosses.. Teatsie is doing fine,, comes out of the tipi for stretching and just plain nosing around to see if its safe to come down to the house I bring her hay and feed and big bowl of water.. heat lamp still on its down in the 30's still at night here with days maybe up in the fiftys.. poor thing just came into heat while all this is going on..hopefully by the time I get home this morning the other two pups will be disposed of,,when I go into check on her I get my palm licked,, Gotta Love Goatie Kisses.. especially from someone in pain..she knows we doin our best..am thinking of getting a gp pup sometime this summer depending on whats available.. cant use a lama cause we dont have that kind of fencing,, shoot they're giving one away on craig's list here. but no can do.


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## HummelHill (Aug 8, 2008)

This may be an unpopular opinion, but i would never put a dog down for hurting a goat. They are just being dogs, you can't fault them for that, and in my opinion I don't think the penalty for that should be death. As much as I love my goats, I love my dogs every bit as much. If I couldn't find a way to keep them both safe in my care, I might rehome the dog to a family that doesn't have livestock, but I just can't see putting an animal to death for following its instinct.


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## DebMc (Dec 11, 2009)

So sad! 



HummelHill said:


> This may be an unpopular opinion, but i would never put a dog down for hurting a goat. They are just being dogs, you can't fault them for that, and in my opinion I don't think the penalty for that should be death. As much as I love my goats, I love my dogs every bit as much. If I couldn't find a way to keep them both safe in my care, I might rehome the dog to a family that doesn't have livestock, but I just can't see putting an animal to death for following its instinct.


I have to say I share your viewpoint, HummelHill. It's not the dog's fault, but rather the person responsible for his care and training. One of my cattle dawgs, the one shown in my Avatar, is neither goat nor bird friendly. As his owner, it's my responsibility to make sure he never has unsupervised access to those animals. As owner/manager of our farm, it's also my responsibility to keep all our animals safe, healthy and out of harm's way. Should my management efforts fail, I only have myself to blame - not the dog that rushed the gate or the bird that flew the coop or the visitor that left the gate unlatched. Of course, to error is only human. And the best I can do to offset that is to learn from my mistakes and assume responsibility for my actions, and to wish the same for others.

Deb Mc


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## HummelHill (Aug 8, 2008)

DebMc, I couldn't have said it better!


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## lissablack (Nov 30, 2009)

Silvergramma, 

I am so sorry you had go through that, and had to make such difficult decisions on top of it. I can't even imagine. I sure hope your doe recovers completely and that nothing like this ever happens to you again. 

I have a Great Dane who I worry would do that, I have really good fences, and I watch her like a hawk, but you still can't always cover everything. The old one is fine, naturally. It's the young one with the massive prey drive. If she ever kills a goat she will be gone from here instantly, one way or another.

Jan


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

all situations are different we had tried finding homes for these pups and are not allowed to build any kind of kennel or put up new shelters or sheds..here,, we're renters but when you are in a livestock situation when they take the first one down they dont stop.. fliers were up for three months as well as ads on craig's list and newspaper ads.. nobody would take them.. all the farmers I talked to about it.. said put em down they get the taste for the meat and thats it.. thats why you hear of so many farmers shooting dogs for killing their chickens,,,I didnt know about the mentality until it was too late.. and yes I will learn from my mistakes.. thats one of the reasons I came into this forum is to learn from others as well as trial and error..and maybe you didnt see the first part of the post.. they ate one of the two week old kids.. all four pups had a piece of him chowing down..I dont know who led the attack ,, they were probably just playing at the time but once blood is drawn,, its down hill from there..this was not a case of a dog accidently hurting a goat.. The pictures tell the story and I dont think you'd want me to put that on here but I can if you dont believe it was life or death.. and I am not angry at anyone for having their opinions as to what I should or should not have done about the pups.. there were seven altogether and these were the last four that nobody wanted we kept them for as long as we could..and they were humanely put down.. the only animal shelter where I live is 80 miles from us and they have a waiting list and dont take in animals from other counties.. thats a shame also but not much I could have done about it..If you care to see the pics of what happened to 
Teatsie I'll post that as well.. we are still finding lacerations on her as I handle her here at the farm that the vet missed..I still dont know what stopped the attack,, maybe the Good Lord above reached down ..


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## poppypatch (May 30, 2009)

And hopefully these pup's sire and dam spayed and neutered now so there will be no more unwanted pups in the future?


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## mnspinner (Aug 13, 2008)

Some breeds that can have high prey drives, you have to watch. I got a German shepherd pup from an established, reputable breeder and despite training to redirect her aggressiveness with my cats and goats, I had to rehome her. I didn't feel I could ever trust her, as her obsession was intense and I've no doubt she would harm or kill a kid if I wasn't supervising.


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## Chi Chi (Mar 7, 2010)

It was a tough decision...not one that I would want to make. When I was growing up we had two German Sheppard- one got out of his kennel and killed a chicken and duck. My father reinforced the kennel and the dog continued to get out and killed what every was in his reach. My dad ended up chaining him up while trying to find him another home- no one would take him- End result- he ended up breaking his chain- killing all the chickens and attacking my younger brother- yes he had to be put down. Sorry about your loss!


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

actually the german shepherd female is scared to death of all the goats.. I think it was the sire..when ever the goats come up to the house for visitors she runs and hides..go figger..making appointment for her to be spayed this week..one goat going to the vet for hair loss and waiting for test results on another.. and yes I'm goatie shopping again.. keep fingers crossed on seller boarding them for me until they can be brought up to my friends location in the fall..Teatsie is starting to itch.. thats a good sign..cant wait to see her jump and run eventually.. my oldest doe actually jumped up and across a cattle gaurd sideways a couple days ago.. she is feeling spry at 9.. we were bottle feeding yesterday..and gonna go again today..


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

Silvergramma,

Just went home to feed Ben his bottle and my aunt's dog and a "stray" we had picked up 2 weeks ago for killing my cat was back.(my grandmother felt sorry that no one claimed him had him brought back. Happy Dog has been renamed Dead Dog. They were trying to get into the chickens. We have copper marans and blue orpingtons. They are not cheap birds. It took us 2 years to find my hubby's Yokohama chicken. Needless to say, my aunt has been warned. Keep the dog at home and secure, or it goes into the woods. AKA doggie heaven. I'll be so glad when or LGD get's older. :sigh: 

Gina


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## PattiXmas (Jan 1, 2010)

I'm sorry about your loss, very sorry. The one thing I don't get though is did you put down 2 of the pups? If so, why? Couldn't you have re-homed they? Why would they have to die for doing what dogs do? I guess I just don't understand.  I have three boston terriers, along with my 5 goats, 5 Rhode Island Red hens, 1 RIR Rooster and 18 cornish crosses (and 1 indoor and 1 outdoor cat). While my dogs chase and play with the chickens and rooster, and ever once in a while, I can see the "pack" mentality kick up, I immediately call the dogs off. 

I guess I don't understand that if you are concerned about dog attacks, why have dogs that are big enough to harm your goats? If you must have your big dogs, why not kennel them off in a 6' high kennel? Separation should work better then execution. 

Again, sorry about your loss, even more sorry for the pups if they perished at your own hand.


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## PattiXmas (Jan 1, 2010)

Just read back - your dog wasn't spayed? Then it truly is your fault for the so called "unwanted" puppies. Many humane societies as well other organizations will help/pay for spay/neutering of your pet to prevent unwanted puppies/kitties. 

You may consider yourself a good goat-momma, but as a doggy momma, you are possibly one of the worst I have ever read about. RIP poor little pups, you were only "playing" and doing what comes naturally. RIP little goatie - if your momma would have been a more responsible doggy momma, you will still be with her.


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

Thanks ladies I appreciate all comments and concerns,,I cannot express my thanks and maybe I can never defend myself because there are people who dont know the whole story,, but next time I find two adult dogs left on the side of the road to fend for themselves and one of them was hit by a vehicle and was dragging his back legs behind him through the grass for three days during a hot weekend and I know this because I have to go that route to haul water to our farm for us and the livestock.. in front of a Bingo hall and nobody else stopped,, while I got a local farmer nearby to help me put the injured Male into my truck to take them to the vet which I payed for to have him xrayed to see if his back was broken and could he be saved.. the white german shepherd female would not leave him during the weekend and she was pregnant..even he knew they were there and did nothing because several people thought that the big male was his dog and stopped to let him know they were out there..
he got an old blanket out of his house and we layed it on the ground and the dog dragged himself onto it and up into the cab of my truck he went,, the female was so skittish that I had to back away from the cab of my truck to let her realize she could go in without feeling threatened 20 minutes about I'd say it took her to hop in..
Anyways the vet bill was over 200 for emergency visit on Sunday morning with exrays,, antibiotics and steriods for him,, nothing broken just inflammation from being hit.. luckily he got his legs back and was doing fine..
NO they were not my dogs.. I paid for the flyers for them and the ads in the paper..trying to find their owners..
I'm a former SPCA worker from a highly populated area of Louisiana and had to attend the gas chamber loading cats and dogs into a cart and unloading them and placing them in biodegradable bags to haul to the landfill nearby after their death.. I only lasted six months and that was back in the 70's...
to me that was not a humane way to put those animals down due to overpopulation 
We kept the pups and both dogs alive and fed well during a hard winter when they would have been in dire need with our climate
we only had four goats at the time neither the male nor the female ever went close to them..now many people believe that after you take in a stray you are reponsible for them yes I am responsible for the two adults..now... but someone else was before me and those former owners you can chew up and spit out first.. they let the female get pregnant..
nobody called or claimed them..If I could afford to pay for the free standing Kennels that you see at the local tractor supply sure I would have done it 
at least I placed the other pups..
Ya cant do it all..and ladies please read the threads slowly before you jump to conclusions..
call me ignorant,, call me stupid but I did what I could..
here,, again please read the threads slowly.. or at least reread them
if the population here was more than it is now I probably would have gotten more responses than I did on the fliers and ads.. but unfortunately I did not..so I was responsible for trying to place them after their birth..but not for the pregnancy.. you all have a good day....


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I just want to remind everyone to keep it friendly here. :hug: 

Things do happen and I know we all would handle things differently.

silvergramma I am so sorry that this happened to you, with the whole situation. How is Teatsie doing? :hug:


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

This morning she was having a lil runny nose and some dishcarge from one of her eyes.. is there a vitamin shot that goats get? she's had enough antibiotics and at least she is up with the herd but she is being bullied a bit and I'm bringing her food from when the other goats feed,,otherwise she isnt having any difficulties.. this can be expected I guess.. I went to the drugstore to make a cd of the pictures and they thought they burned a good one but when I got here nothing was on the cd ,, gotta take the camera back,, good thing I didnt empty the memory card huh? She is on great food plenty of forage from being free ranged and a big huge bowl of loose goat mineral in the barn..maybe there is a combination of herb tea I can get her on to help boost her system a bit.. just an idea..
there is a humane society shelter 80 miles away and there is a waiting list and they dont accept animals from other counties..
the dog catcher truck here.. picks up strays.. they take them and shoot em..from what I've been told.. 
the pups were not put down by my hands,, just my decision..I couldnt do it..
I couldnt even watch when my Senior stallion had to be put down due to old age and loss of teeth and senior wasting..


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> I just want to remind everyone to keep it friendly here.
> 
> Things do happen and I know we all would handle things differently.


 I have to agree... we must know all the facts and not assume .... anything.... we don't want to hurt anyones feelings..... 

silvergramma...I highly commend you ...for helping animals in need.....I am so sorry..  ..it had such a bad outcome .... in which ....you didn't know ...and it was not your fault....... what so ever...... My heart goes out to you and your presious animals........ :hug:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I cannot imagine the devastation you must have felt when you saw that baby! :hug: All you have done to treat your goatie has been great, making sure she has had her tetanus boostered is a must, I have seen the effects of tetanus with dog bites and goats and it is not something I would want to deal with again.
You have done what a good hearted person would do by taking in two dogs, one hurt andd to treat them and provide shelter, food and a place for mom to deliver, not many out there who would take on such responsibility especially not knowing the dog. Sad but true, I too have taken in abused, negleted and injured...my Petey was thankfully very good with my goats as well as 2 legged kids, I had him for 8 years before age took him from me.
I also need to say that not everyone is open to taking on someones "problem"..knowing the pack/prey instinct is so great in these pups, would you ever feel good about sending them off as family pets? God forbid they would show that strong instinct with small children.
Regardless of the strong feelings set forth here, reality is cruel sometimes and it is often neccessary to do what others would see as wrong. :hug:


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

silvergramma, For the goat, I would just keep a eye on her. She has had so much happen to her that the more you do I believe it will make things worse. 

Keep up the good work. Maybe just wipe her eyes with clean towels with warm water. I have a few goats that have a runny nose when the new weeds and pollen comes out.

:hi5: Keep up the good work. She is very lucky to have you to take care of her.


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## Lawanda (Jun 11, 2009)

Aww Silvergramma, what a tough situation! I think you made the right decisions, even though I am sure it was very very hard on you.


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## maple hill farm tina (Mar 14, 2010)

I grew up as the youngest child of a retired veterinarian. As such, anytime a critter came down with anything in our neighborhood, everyone in the neighborhood knew to take it to Dad. If Dad wasn't there, it went to me. As a child, I had an unbelieveable variety of pets, and I nursed back to health every animal from an owl to a flying squirrel to a bat to a wild rabbit to all sorts of domesticated creatures. As an adult, I have been called "hippie" and "tree-hugger" more times than I care to count. The only wreck I have ever been in was caused when a groundhog got in front of my car, and I swerved to avoid hitting him (and totalled my car in the process). There are MANY times when I prefer the company of my animals to the company of some of the people I have met. 

Silvergramma, in your position, with the same set of circumstances, I would have done EXACTLY what you did. 

-Tina


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

zthis is the first shot I took while at the vets,, I took her in that very morning ,,he shaved her down.. washed her with anitmicrobial or antibacterial soap.. very gently too..and rinsed her with a squirt bottle right there on the table.. then applied a white cream which I have the jar of.. she never made a peep gave her antibiotics and tetanus and put on Dectomax the only picture I forgot to get was of the top of her neck where most of the smaller lacerations were,, needless to say she is very slow moving and sore...still a quiet girl and comes and sits by me when I feed the herd..I dont know how to put more pics in here so will have to do so on several posts


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

as she wasnt bleeding when I found her and what the vet told us was this,, I cant stitch her it would only cause absesses just keep her clean watch her and bring her in for a check up..


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

she stayed most of the time in the kid tipis we had built during the colder nights and windier days with a heat lamp used for brooders 250 watts


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## silvergramma (Nov 9, 2009)

sorry I dont know how to size the photos the site I brought them from and I dont know how to put multiples in one posting.. after i put the camera away he shaved a couple places near her hips and we found more but didnt need to do more than what I have to tell the story.
She's a tough lil girl..


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

How awful! Your pretty lil' girl is very strong to have endured this, and you have been very strong to continue with her treatment and TLC. She'll heal and be much better soon, lacerations heal quickly, it's the punctures that cause the biggest trauma. Keep doing for her what you have been, she'll be well soon :hug:


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

What a sweet thing she is. She is quiet because she knows you are there to protect her. 

I thinks she looks great considering the situation. 

Nothing a little ok a lot just because she is so cute (pampering), and she will be good as new. :leap:


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

Bless her heart. And yours. :shocked: She'll pay you back with love.  My rescues always do.

Gina


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

I don't have dogs for this very reason. I feel terrible about those who need rescuing, but somebody else has to do it. I won't sell a kid to dog owners unless I see their setup first. The farmers you spoke to are right. Once a dog entertains himself in this way, he'll look for more opportunities. Maybe it won't be goats next time, maybe it'll be somebody's child if you "re-home" (pawn him off on some other unsuspecting chump) him. I warned a neighbor repeatedly about his loose dogs several years ago. They went every afternoon to the creek nearby for a swim and the two of them would then try to dig under my fence to get to the goats. One night, they got in. Fortunately, the goats have a half acre pasture and were able to fend them off and get away and not get cornered, with our old horned wether doing some damage trying to protect them. I heard the commotion and dispatched the two of them with my shotgun, one of them as he ran towards ME. 11:30 p.m. phone call to the neighbor. "Your dogs are out in the road by your gate, tomorrow I'll show you the hole they dug under my fence. Better go get them before the coyotes do." You did the right thing.


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

I rescue goats and sheep not dogs.  I will call and let the pound know if I see a dog needing help on the road. 

I had a very hard time getting our LGD, Grumpy. I just don't like dogs anymore. I only decided to get him because of the coyotes at the new land. He's a pretty cool pup. He already walks the fence line and has started sleeping with them at night. He has also figured out not to chase the chickens. He watches them but won't chase them. I hope he does good and doesn't keep trying to get out. 

What do you have to protect the goats?

Gina


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## bbredmom (Sep 30, 2008)

My ex-husband and I rescued a german shepherd pup (2 months) from supposed working lines. We lived with the goats, ate with them, etc. The idea was to have a guardian for them in a breed I was familiar with. 

All was fine until he hit 6 months old. Then he started nipping at the goats. And finally, he killed my first baby born on our land, JJ, at a week old. My husband came home to him defending the body against my shelties. So I completely understand how you felt to find pieces of your new baby everywhere. We were finding bits of bone and fur for weeks.

We didn't shoot him, but we did find him a new home ASAP (ok, well he went to live with my husband when we separated, but that wasn't long after for unrelated reasons).

My new (and final) husbands terrier chased one of our resuce pygmy girls to death. He was about to shoot her, but I said to give me 24 hours to find her a new home. I'm not against shooting dangerous animals at all, but I knew his sister would probably take her. And she did.

The only dogs we have now are a Great Pyr, a Newfie, a Smooth collie trained with goats, and two shelties. But I can't say I wouldn't have done the same as SG. I'm lucky in that I have an 8x10 within a seperate yard from my goats.

Good for you for taking in the dogs when you did, but also good for you for doing what you had to do to protect your goats.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

I understand that it is your choice to do what you need to do. I also understand the horror of having a goat ripped to shreds. But I still think putting a puppy down for such a thing is wrong and any excuse to the contrary is pure lazyness. I'm sorry, but there had to be a way you could have contained those dogs better. Not only that, but there was no need for the unwanted puppies. Period. In a home with no livestock or a good home with a proper containment system, they could have been fine and happy pets. At the very least, you can go and sit in front of a Walmart or a Big R on weekends with a free puppy sign until someone takes them. Putting up CL ads and flyers doesn't take allot of effort, and not attempting to do something more when lives are involved is ridiculous. I'm sorry for your goats. I hope the doe heals up well.


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