# HELP!! UGH....Scurs or Horns...WHICH ARE WORSE?



## Emma & Oscar (Sep 5, 2011)

Hi everyone, 

I'm a new goat owner and I'm trying to figure out which is the lesser of the two evils...Scurs or Horns?

My dilemma:

I got two baby goats in June, they were right around 8 weeks old. One, my pigmy-female-Emma, had been disbudded...the Lamancha-male-Oscar, (just banded before we got him) had horns/scurs growing and looked like they had been burned or something...not sure...but it looked like it was a poor or late attempt to take care of his horns----whatever the case, it was not done properly. They both broke off once, and then grew a little more and then one broke off...a couple weeks ago...it didn't appear to bleed and is a bit thinner than the other one. Then...other broke off the day before yesterday and I noticed it when I went down to the barn to give them treats...he was bleeding badly...it broke off and left the scur/horn about an inch 1/2 long, about the same length as the other one now. I freaked! Blood was gushing down his face and the side of his face. I ran up to get my husband to help me try and wipe up the blood that had dried on and also the new blood. Oscar would not let us near his head, so we didn't know what to do. It looked awful to say the least. I ran up to the house and called my vet...it was Saturday, a holiday weekend and I got his wife on the phone...she said to put sugar on it to help it cooagulate and stop bleeding. So...we tried that...and it went over like a lead balloon....Oscar wasn't havin' any of that...he would not sit still enough to even TRY to do anything and we were aggravating it and making it bleed more. So he kept bleeding...and I ran back up to the house and did a little searching on the internet to try to find info on what to do. In the mean time...about a half hour went by and my hubby checked on him and said it had stopped bleeding. Oh...thank God...I was so scared he was going to bleed to death on a holiday weekend and I couldn't get ahold of my vet. I did much reading...and am getting mixed info on what to do about my babies. I have questions about the scurs/horns. I did read the post on here about "dehorning and saw the graphic pics of that procedure" and I am not sure if this is something I want my boy to go through. It looks and sounds horrific. To make matters even worse...last night I was playing with my girl, Emma...and I felt her head and it feels like her little horns are growing back too. I do not want them to have horns and hurt each other. but I also don't want scurs that are going to break off and cause them to bleed to death. It seems to me at least "real horns" would have been better, at least the would be strong enough and not break and some filing or trimming of the ends could have been done when they grow. From the reading I've been doing, the scurs sound much more dangerous. I did not know about horns/scurs when I got the babies....I was ignorant to it. All I knew is I wanted goats without horns. The people I bought them from said the female had been disbudded and it looked like she had and the tops of her tiny little horns did fall off so I thought they were done correctly (but obviously not since I can feel them growing back now)...and the male, his horns/scurs were about 2-3 inches long but had dried blood on them and looked as if they were burned or something and I questioned them and they said...."oh, yeah, they've been done and will just fall off".....well, duh, I didn't know any better and thought...okay, they have goats, they must know. But...after much reading, I learned, whatever they did to him was WRONG and they will not fall off...they're scurs and will keep growing and breaking off apparently. UGH....I wish I had been a little more educated on the subject before I got my goats...but then again, I am so glad I have them, I love them both so much and they are in a very good home and I'm glad I took them away from where they were previously at since they were obviously not properly taken care of. Now that I have them, I am not sure what to do about their scurs. 

Questions:

1.) Since Oscar is now a wether...his little banded nubbin's fell off about a month after we got him...will his scurs stop growing or will they still continue to grow? I read on here that they could stop growing in wethers because of lack of hormones. Is this true? I am hoping that since they've both now broke off and are about an inch 1/2 long that they may stay that long. If that's the case...I do not intend to have him dehorned.

2.) What about my lil' girl Emma? She was born in April and is still quite young...I'm worried that she could harm Oscar when hers grow back...she's quite a bit littler than him and she butts in about tummy level all the time...and could potentially hurt him if she had horns/scurs. Should I consider de-horning her before these things grow any bigger, or should I wait and see how they grow in? Oscars are not curled or anything to where they're growing into his scull so they would not cause him harm that way...he can only continue to break them if the continue to grow...but Emma's aren't grown past her hair on her head yet so I'm not sure what direction they'll take when they grow in. Honestly, I wish these people would have done them correctly or just left them be....I think full on horns would have been the lesser of the evils. 

What are your opinions on this subject. I'm scared of all the stuff I've been reading about dehorning and anesthesia and also after care since Oscar would not let us near his head...I'm worried that if I even attempted surgery, I wouldn't be able to get near his head to tend to open sinus cavity wounds. Oh...someone please let me know what is in store for me  I'm so sad for my lil' babies.

Carol


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

This probably seems worse than it is. I hope so for your sake. I know broken scurs bleed profusely but I have never lost a goat due to scurs breaking off. 
Disbudding is high on my hate-to-do list but we have had too many close calls with horns. We just will not have them anymore. 
It takes some practice to do this right. I have two goats who were disbudded by a vet before we got them. They both have scurs. When they do break off we do our best to get some antibacterial spray on them and then let them be. 
Our buck has a really bad scur that is our fault. We were terribly out of practice when we did him. The kids from this year are all very good jobs as hubby got past his fears and left the iron on long enough. That and some tips from the internet.
If you cannot do this yourself and decide to get someone to do it for you; make sure they know what they are doing. Not all veterinarians are that familiar and if they do not do it as a regular part of their practice; it may not turn out right. 
I have never had a goat surgically dehorned or descurred(?) so I do not know what all it would entail. We just put up with them breaking off.
Good luck to you whatever you decide.


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## Emma & Oscar (Sep 5, 2011)

Thanks luvmyherd....I appreciate your input


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Of my 9 goats...6 are horned..yes, I "deal" with them in my own way as it is my choice to leave horns, I've not dealt with scurs yet ( 2 of my baldies are polled) my mom has quite a few "disbudded" 6 year old Togg wethers and 2 grow heavy scurs, one had to be cut as it was curling in towards his eye, the other tends to break his off repeatedly, bloody yes, but not enough to bleed to death.

Your doeling may or may not have an issue with scurs, most are just small areas of growth that weren't caught in the dehorning iron but if the buds are small enough, you can shave her head and have her reburned...with Oscar though, being a bigger breed this may not work and yes, with him being wethered, there isn't the male hormones there to make the scurs grow heavily.....there is the option of banding the scurs...same band that was used to remove his jewels can be used to remove horns. Theres quite a few discussions here on TGS that deal with banding horns...that might be a better option for you and Oscar.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2011)

If the scurs are loose, then you can get pliers and twist them off. I had to do that with one of my bucks as they had curled down toward his head. I used channel locks and twisted the scurs off. Hardly any blood at all and the buck never made a sound. I put him on the milk stand to do the job. Very easy.


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## Emma & Oscar (Sep 5, 2011)

Well thanks lilhill...and Liz. Oscars scurs aren't loose but at least they're stubbier now since they've both broken off. I don't have a milk stand but saw some plans on Fias Co Farm's website and when I looked at the pics of it, I'm wondering how you keep the goat still on that stand since their head is the only thing that is kept in place....their body and legs are still free to kick, jump and flail all around??? I would like my hubby to build us a stand of sorts so that we'll be able to trim their hooves when needed, but I haven't seen any others besides the one on Fias Co Farm. @ Liz...I have read that once a goats been debudded, you can't redo it? See...I'm getting mixed info and not sure what is correct and what isn't. Does it just depend on the goat, the scurs and how old it is? Also, the bands for castration, aren't they just heavy duty rubber-type bands? Since the scurs/horns are a bone type of matter and not a soft tissue like the scrotum....it doesn't seem like a rubber band type of thing would suffocate hard bone matter? Or am I wrong in assuming this? Someone posted a link to a website on a thread (dehorning thread with graphic pics) about banding the scurs but when I clicked on the link...it didn't appear to be a currently working link anymore. Do you have a good working link or a thread handy that you could share with me so I don't have to try and search for one? Thanks ladies...sure appreciate your help


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Heres a post that may help..... with mini breeds like pygmies and nigerians, doelings horn buds are not as big around as a bucklings, a reburn while young can sometimes work but IMO, banding scurs would be the better choice if total bald heads are wanted.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20885&start=0&hilit=Banding+horns

The bands used are the green latex bands and yes, if placed at the very base and close to the skull, they will contract and cut off circulation.


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## Emma & Oscar (Sep 5, 2011)

Is banding them really painful? I read a post about banding a males nubbin's and people really frown on that it seems since some feel it is very inhumane because it takes so long. If it's on the goat's head, seems like that would cause pain too? Gosh...none of this is without pain it seems and I don't wanna hurt them.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

When it comes to discomfort and pain...there really is no "humane" way to do a disbud or a castration, there are risks with every procedure and you really do need to think of what is best for the goat, yes banding is uncomfortable until the area loses sensation but if you choose to go the vet route and have them surgically removed...there's risk of the goat not dealing with the anesthetic well and you have open wounds to treat and care for.


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

I have to agree with liz about being careful having a vet dehorn. I lost my baby boy rascal due to vet not knowing what to do with anesthesia and goats. He had big testicles so was there for neutring and dehorning. I would deal with horns before letting another go under again. Just my 2 cents


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## Emma & Oscar (Sep 5, 2011)

@dobe627 I am so sorry to hear about your baby Rascal. That really makes me sad to hear. I've read several people say they lost a goat due to a vet and anesthesia problems. Thank you so much for your input  @ Liz...thank you for the banding post, that was really helpful. I wish I were better at seeing an animal in pain than I am. I just cry if they're hurt. When my little girls were babies and had to get their first shots at their first Dr. appointment with their pediatricians, I came unglued at the seams when they stuck the needle in my babies and the Dr. promptly ask my husband to escort me out of the room. I could never go in if there was an emergency, I freaked out worse then my kids. With animals, it's even worse. If I see a deer hit on the side of the road (which happens pretty often around here in Idaho), I cry. I've had animals all my life...we had a small farm as a kid and I bottlefed our baby calves, took care of our baby pigs...and also our chickens, ducks, geese and goats. When it came time to slaughter the cows or the pigs....and the slaughter truck arrived....I bawled and bawled and bawled...I never ate the meet, they were my pets. I am not vegetarian, I just could not eat my pets. As an adult, I am the same way & I cannot handle seeing an animal in pain or hurt. My husband always asks me why I want animals when I am such a wuss? I just always say, I just love them so much and I can't imagine my life without them. I honestly love animals more than most people. I guess I just need to "buck up" some how--gawd, I am such a sap. When we first got the baby goats, Oscar was so skiddish, and wouldn't let us near him. He was walking all stiff legged, probably due to his nubbin's being freshly banded and his horns/scurs looked like they tried to burn inside of them...as there was dried blood--it was obvious that he was afraid of people. It took a few weeks before he really let us pet him and I keep thinking if we do this banding thing on his horns he's not gonna wanna come near us. I don't want to ruin the trust we've built. He is my baby...he follows me everywhere. I think I'm going to have to find someone besides me to band his scurs. He's healing now from the one breaking so it'll be a bit yet before I tackle this obstacle. Thank you all again for the help, I appreciate it so very much


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If you are anyhere near, get your vet to give you a recommendation to Caine Research Center in Nampa. They are very good, knowledgable, and easy to work with. They have worked extensively with the pack goat community in the area and are often at our campouts giving teaching seminars.
I have a wether that had little scurs about 3 inches long when I bought him. He now is a yearling that has 5 to 6 inch scurs. One is split lengthwise to his skull. He bleeds with any bump to it and you can see that it hurts him by the way he holds his head. He will be going to get his taken off in a month when the cooler weather will help ease his recovery. I think he's going to be relieved and glad to be done with them.
Taking care of these would have been much easier when he was littler and I've been kicking myself all summer for not doing it in Febuary when I bought him.
All my wethers have scurs to some degree. If the scurs are not wiggley and they bleed when they are knocked off, then they need cared for.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Depending on how the scurs grow watch to see if they need to be sawed or removed. My one buck had a cur that would curl around and if left alone would grow right into the side of his head.


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