# Need Response on Naylor's



## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

okay I tried Dr. Naylor's today - trimmed the head with shears, put the vaseline ring on, put naylor's past on about the size of a nickel, left on for 30min. rinsed with water then vinegar and this is what I got - It doesn't look like it did anything - suggestions? Do I need to redo it or jsut leave it as is?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Sirry i cant really help. When i used.it itvwas on a large extensive farm. We put.the stuff on put dct tape.on then snt em back out to the lat
rge paddock


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

How old is the kid? The one time I used it the kids were about 2 days old and just barely had little bumps on their heads. I can't remember now how the heads looked after, but I think the idea is that you put it on early enough that it kills the horn bud before it starts growing.


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## shibby7 (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm not too sure either, sorry! Mine haven't looked that, there is never any blood or oozing and usually more of a circle around the actual bud, hard to tell in the pic though.
I don't know if the paste can be re-aplied, I haven't done it. Wish I could be more help!


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

ptgoats45 said:


> How old is the kid? The one time I used it the kids were about 2 days old and just barely had little bumps on their heads. I can't remember now how the heads looked after, but I think the idea is that you put it on early enough that it kills the horn bud before it starts growing.


They are Pygmies and 7 days old. I waited because I asked on another thread about it and was told Pygmies had to wait til between 7and 10 days old for the bud to be felt. You could just feel the bump and really couldn't see it when first shaved. But now you can see the noticeable white round bump on one side and then it got a little bloody on the other side.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

With disbudding minis you can wait to feel the bump -- but with using the paste (or so I've read) you have to do it earlier.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I did my kids at 5 days old and got the same thing. I ended up having to disbud them with the iron. It is so much quicker that way.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> I did my kids at 5 days old and got the same thing. I ended up having to disbud them with the iron. It is so much quicker that way.


How long did you wait after paste to use the iron? His head is really sore to touch and it feels soft/mushy - I guess that's swelling from the paste.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Since I didn't know that it didn't work, I did it when I realized the horns were growing. By the time I realized it, they had healed from the Naylors. It did seem to slow the growth down a bit because it was actually a couple weeks later that I realized the horns were still growing.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

I use paste, but do it at about 4-5 days old. I don't end up with blood though...I do end up with all the hair gone and the buds are white, like in the photo. It looks like you might have missed some of the upper right one (the goat's upper right) ... If you don't get a good perimeter burned around the actual bud it will grow. I never had to re-paste, burn, etc. and I always use the paste. Mine don't get crazy scurs either. My goats who were disbudded with an iron actually get worse scurs.


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

I don't think Fae or Ke$ha have any scurs, so you did a good job ^^


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## serenityfarmnm (Jan 6, 2013)

We are going crazy trying to decide between paste, burning. That picture scares the crap outta me!!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Hope all goes well with your little ones and that the paste worked!

Thinking I'm gonna leave mine with horns....if people don't buy them, we'll just have to process....I like them natural looking myself....


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

serenityfarmnm said:


> We are going crazy trying to decide between paste, burning. That picture scares the crap outta me!!


Lol...I know how you feel...we were doing the same thing before we decided to see if we can sell em with horns....

After all, I bought 3 with them myself...


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

If that picture scares the crap out of you, disbudding with an iron will give you a heart attack.


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Firelight, how do you do the paste so that it works so well? I too am teetering back and forth between paste and burning. I did the iron last year, and I guess I didn't burn for long enough and they were too old when I burned them, and it didn't work at all.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

With the iron you have to wait until you get a white and copper ring around the base of the horn, and make sure you get around the WHOLE base of the horn :thumb:

I'm still considering testing paste one of these years.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Well, this was my first test to try it out. But after seeing what he went through screaming and the blood and now not knowing if it worked, I don't think I'll do it again. I've never had a problem selling horned goats and all mine have horns. I wanted to try it based on others reviews of it. I can say it was a little disappointing hearing repsonses from those who I thought were very experienced with this method and had imo recommended it to learn they had never seen this before or have it happen. But we all learn as we go I guess and this was a learning experience for me. I may use it if requested to have a disbudded goat if reserve has already been made.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Frosty1 said:


> Firelight, how do you do the paste so that it works so well? I too am teetering back and forth between paste and burning. I did the iron last year, and I guess I didn't burn for long enough and they were too old when I burned them, and it didn't work at all.


I make it a big circle around the bud. I think people get scurs with paste because they either do it too late (the box even says to do it later than what I do, but if I wait longer than 4-5 days old I've heard you can still get horns) or don't make the circle of paste big enough. Also, some people don't shave the head because they figure the paste will burn off the hair. It will, but you'll likely get scurs.

I shave like...ALL the hair off their poor foreheads so they look like little tough guys. They I take a popsicle stick and smear the paste in a spiraling circle from the horn bud out until its the size of a quarter or a little bigger. Boys need more coverage than girls. Before I do all this, I tear a bunch of duct tape into strips and hang them on a fence board. Once the paste is on I put it over the buds (horizontally across the entire top of the head) and then connect the rest of the pieces so its wrapping around the backs of the ears, under the chin, etc. and I keep adding pieces until I have a helmet that will safely protect eyes, ears, etc. from paste. Then I put them in a pen with mom and set a timer for 30 minutes. Some throw a FIT, they all try to scratch with their back hooves but can't get the tape off if you made a nice "helmet". Some just lay in a corner and look angry. I've even had some run and play in the barn and explore (since I had taken them into a new place) and forget the paste but for the occasional foot scratch. They are all varying levels of big babies. Lol. Then I peel the helmet off at the timer, and take a rag towel and wipe the paste off in a glob. Then I dump some red winde vinegar on their heads and rinse their heads with water (I tilt their head back and cover the eyes.)

None of them hold it against me, and I have really clean heads. I don't mind little scurs and many of my iron disbudded goats have them, but none of the kids I have kept or sold and still see from time to time...have scurs. Some people don't have the stomach for it because they say the kid must suffer a whole half hour, but I'm paranoid of burning with an iron and messing up and making their brains swell and killing them (I've heard stories...) so I use the paste. I even put a glob on my arm and let it sit for 15 minutes to see what it felt like. It burns, yes...but its more uncomfortable than super painful. I felt I could handle it on hairless, bare skin so they'd just have to put up with it. Then people asked what I did to my arm for a week. Lol.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

audrey said:


> I don't think Fae or Ke$ha have any scurs, so you did a good job ^^


Yay! Thats good to hear. I always wonder how my disbudding/castrating did down the road and since I sell most kids its hard to get an accurate judgement all the time. I use an emasulatome and crush the cords on wethers, and I always wonder if (for those who went home right after crushing) I accomplished it 100%. I always tell people to come back if their little "souvenirs" don't start to shrink and I'll re-do it...and they never do..so I'm assuming I haven't botched a "ball crushing" yet. Lol.


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## RedGate (Dec 7, 2012)

The few people that I've read that have used the paste on here are the only good testimonies I've ever seen on it. I've personally seen it used on calves and I felt terrible for them. Several were very red and weepy similar to this kid. For me, disbudding is fast and over within minutes. Swelling and weeping, to me means pain and the possibility of infection. So the picture is more scary! I don't see that on my disbudded kids. Thank you for sharing.


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## serenityfarmnm (Jan 6, 2013)

keren said:


> If that picture scares the crap out of you, disbudding with an iron will give you a heart attack.


Thank God my DH & DS will be handling that part.... still tryin to decide on how we are gonna castrate also!


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

I've been burned with a disbudding iron. OWW. It burns for days. I've been burned with pure sodium hydroxide from making soap. I accidentally get granules on my skin that sometimes gets wet and activates it. It stings something fierce but its more irritating than anything and I have left it on for up to 30 minuets because I had to finish pouring the soap into the molds so I couldn't stop. Once the vinegar goes on it really doesn't hurt any more. So if I did disbudding it would be by paste. 30 minuets or not it still hurts less.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

The three kids I used the paste on did not have scurs and had very clean heads. I disbud now just because it is a little quicker and I can get the tattoo's done at the same time.

I have heard of people who wrap the kid in a towel and set him/her on their lap while they watch TV until the time is up for the paste. The kid can't scratch the head and you can watch them the whole time.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I read this at 5.50am when i just got up ... Thanks for the laugh firelight ... "ball crushing" LMAO


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

RedGate said:


> The few people that I've read that have used the paste on here are the only good testimonies I've ever seen on it. I've personally seen it used on calves and I felt terrible for them. Several were very red and weepy similar to this kid. For me, disbudding is fast and over within minutes. Swelling and weeping, to me means pain and the possibility of infection. So the picture is more scary! I don't see that on my disbudded kids. Thank you for sharing.


But I've read/heard that with calves you put it on and LEAVE it on...like for days, until it wears off on its own.

I've never burned myself with a disbudding iron, but I have burned myself pretty good with some HOT things and burns hurt for days on end (for me.) I agree with xymenah on the difference in burn pain vs. chemical burn pain. Its spot on as far as my own experiences with the different types of burns. It should feel similar for the kids.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

keren said:


> I read this at 5.50am when i just got up ... Thanks for the laugh firelight ... "ball crushing" LMAO


Hee hee. Your welcome. You should see all the men around the barn disappear when I whip out the "ball crusher." Sometimes I bring it in the house and leave it conspicuously on a shelf. Its always clean since you crush outside the skin, no bleeding/fluids (and thusly no infection, which is one reason I use it) ... My husband gets mad and eyeballs it. Sometimes I'll wave it at him and tell him I know where he sleeps (obviously. Lol) and that he better be nice.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Accidentally burning yourself with the iron disbudder would hurt more than actual disbudding, because you would only give yourself a 1st or 2nd degree burn, those kids end up with 3rd degree burns which kills the nerve cells.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

keren said:


> Accidentally burning yourself with the iron disbudder would hurt more than actual disbudding, because you would only give yourself a 1st or 2nd degree burn, those kids end up with 3rd degree burns which kills the nerve cells.


Just what I was going to say!


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

firelight27 said:


> But I've read/heard that with calves you put it on and LEAVE it on...like for days, until it wears off on its own.
> 
> I've never burned myself with a disbudding iron, but I have burned myself pretty good with some HOT things and burns hurt for days on end (for me.) I agree with xymenah on the difference in burn pain vs. chemical burn pain. Its spot on as far as my own experiences with the different types of burns. It should feel similar for the kids.


Calves you leave it on until it eventually wears off. But in calves we don't have as many problems with "hoofing" or licking like we do with the kids.

With burning, they only feel the initial pain of the direct burn. After it starts burning down through the layers, they lose sensation because you actually create such a "bad burn" it lyses the nerves. Which is why usually if you're good at dehorning you keep to your burn and you make one or two good rings. Down to copper (which is actually the skull burning). If you stop at white you may miss some vessels.

I HIGHLY prefer dehorning/disbudding via iron.

I also highly prefer knifing for castration.


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## shibby7 (Feb 20, 2012)

So forgive me for the poor photos, my camera has been acting up, and its hard to take photo's when they are moving all over the place, but I think I got good enough shots you can get the idea.

See how the "wound" is dry? And flat, and alot larger? You have to get it on fairly thick and even (that's the tricky part). I've been doing my full size bucklings at 1 or 2 days old, because the horns grow so fast, you have to do them before the buds pop up. Don't go by "do it on such and such day", you have to feel them everyday, every goat will different.

This doeling was done an hour ago and she is 6 days old (nubian). I'm confident she won't have scurs.

ETA - someone PM'd me asking if I trimmed her hair first - YES, but I don't feel the need to shave the whole head, I just shave little circles, and I don't bother with a vaseline ring either. The paste is not runny, so I'm not worried about it going where it shouldn't. And sorry the other side isn't showing up - the hair is a bit longer on that side so it covers it, but that side looks the exact same.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Good job, shibby7! Someday when I work up the nerve I will give the paste a go and compare it.


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## shibby7 (Feb 20, 2012)

Thanks woodhaven!! Like I said in the other thread, its probably not for everyone (just like how using the iron is no longer for me!), but I don't think its fair to judge it harshly after 1 use, because lets face it - practice makes perfect  .


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I agree. Our first time disbudding by iron was a really tough experience, but once we got the hang of it it became much easier


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Thanks Shibby for the pics. I will try again on a future kid and I will not wait til 7 days - I will feel for the buds daily and do it before buds pop up. Is it when you just feel a nub or do it when you still don't feel anything?


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## shibby7 (Feb 20, 2012)

I've been doing mine when I can _just_ feel a tiny bump, when its barely raised at all. Others might do different but this has been working great for me.

So today the "wounds" look like leather, still nice and dry and she acts like nothing happened at all. I don't put on any healing creams or sprays either, just leave it as it is.
OH and her head was not/is not squishy at all in the those spots, I don't think squishy is normal, I haven't had that happen.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Shibby, Do you put duct tape on them or just let it sit for the 30mins? That is the one thing I forgot to mention in my op. I put the duct tape helmet on for the 30mins.


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## shibby7 (Feb 20, 2012)

I only tried the duct tape once, and it didn't go so well for me, I couldn't get it to not cover the eyes, and when I put the kid back in with mom she promtly started to get the tape off. I also noticed that the duct tape made the paste squish and thin out and go alot further then I wanted it.

So I've just been holding them, I don't mind it. I'll probably try the duct tape again sometime though, but because I've learned more, I'll do a few things different - I'll make thinner strips for the top of the head (or even shape more of a dome with small peices), I won't put back with mom, and I will use the vaseline ring.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Shibby7, sorry I know this is an old thread, when you disbud again, could you get pictures of the helmet?


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## shibby7 (Feb 20, 2012)

I don't think I'll be doing anymore this year, but I can for sure get pictures next time I do it!
Oh - and I still don't bother with the vaseline ring, even now with the helmet, its just an added step that isn't really needed IMO.


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

I really really want to do this instead of the iron. The kid box shall work well for holding them hostage  Mwahahaha!



*spellcheck (yes, I am a grammar Nazi)*


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