# Pocket in Foreudder??



## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I know Honey's udder is very far from being perfect. . . . I was looking at some pics of pockets in foreudders and Honey's foreudder (which I thought she had a "pocket") doesn't look like those does. This pic isn't so great but maybe you can get an idea, she's drying up now but I can try to get another one soon. 
Is this a pocket but just a small one? I know her foreudder does not blend smoothly but I'm just wondering if this is an actual pocket. Thanks in advance!!


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Do you have a bigger picture? It would be easier to tell.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Yep, this should be bigger. . . . sorry about the fuzzy udder!


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't think she does


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

SWEET!!! Yippeee!!  :clap: :stars: I know there is still a lot of improvement needed on her udder (a lot!) but that makes me happier knowing that she probably doesn't have a pocket. Thanks!


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

I do see a bit of a pocket. How old is she? on young does it may not be there at all but you may find that as she matures and gains more capacity each freshening you will see more of one. For now i would call it a short foreudder, But you can see how the tissue on her udder actually juts out a little further then where her udder meets her belly. I had one doe last year that as a yearling had a flawless foreudder. this year she had a pocket. It happens. Even though the foreudder is worth more on the score card, i see most judges put more empathis on the rear udder attachment. by no means is a short foreudder a reason to get rid of a doe, the rest of her udder looks quite nice.
beth


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

She is almost three years and this was her third freshening (she kidded as a yearling and was bred back soon after kidding by her previous owner).



> But you can see how the tissue on her udder actually juts out a little further then where her udder meets her belly.


Yeah, I can see that. . . . it's frustrating but her overall conformation and dairy character is super nice, so I have to work on the udder. . . .


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

it is frustrating but for me thats half the fun of breeding, hunting for bucks to improve these things. I m ALWAYS on the lookout for a new buck whether i need one or not. I just put a deposit on a buck kid fro next year and my herd is living over four hundred miles from me! I just couldnt pass on this breeding though.
beth


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

That is so very true.  Do you think that the pocket will get more noticeable as she matures and freshens?? 

Now I'm looking at Marilyn Monroe (at Poppy Patch) again and thinking what a lovely smooth foreudder she has. . . . I want a new buck soon! Hard part is waiting. . . .


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## Sweet Gum Minis (Oct 6, 2007)

Could it be a shelf? Its hard to tell from that angle.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Okay, this is going to sound silly but what is a shelf??  I've heard of it before but never had the chance to ask anyone what exactly it is. . . . is a "shelf" bad?


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I wast thinking a possible shelf too, here is an example

http://kidnacres.com.hosting.domaindire ... lx_picc5le


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

a shlef is in moderation a pocket but smaller. Do you have any pictures of her udder from the side?
It may or may not get worse with age. In my experience it does because as they gain more capacity it emphasized. However i have heard other breeders say wait a year let her freshen again and see how it looks then.
beth


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I don't have any pics of her side udder - she's drying up already (not milking her because she's not friendly). Here is a pic of another goat, Honey's side udder looks exactly like this doe. . . . Honey's teats aren't as long though & she doesn't have quite that capacity but her side udder looks the same.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

it looks like it may develope into a pocket as she gets older. that doe apears to have a short foreudder. meaning it ends abrulptly and quite further back then it should, rather then being long and smoothly blended into the belly. The foreudder can be one of the hardest things to fix (from my own personal experience) Its just one of those thigngs that you have to keep breeding up and trying out new bucks to fix.
beth


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Well, this is going to be fun. :roll:  Beth, do you think it would be best for me to get a buck from Poppy Patch, probably one from Marilyn Monroe? She has a really nice foreudder, right? Looks good to me. . . . and she's being bred to Rebel, he throws awesome kids with great udders, from what I've seen.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Her fore udder is nice. there are a couple of does on their site that are better in that department. I would find all the pictures you can of does sired by the buck she is out of. Look at the consistancy os the foreudder he has thrown. Then take a look at their dam, how much of an improvement do you see? one of the biggest thing with any buck (in my opinion) is the consistancy he has thrown, because you have one great doe out of twenty decent does what do you think the likelyhood of him throwing another great daughter is for you? I know its tough to tell on a non existant buck that you dont have yet. But one way to look at that is look at the does that you plan on aquairing your next sires from sisters. Out of the same buck. Suposedly the buck is either going to throw his dam or gran dams type. Take a loot at his sisters as well. I usually put more on his relitives then i do on the doe herself. though that is important too. If you can take a look at her dam and her grand dam. Do yu see improvements?
hope this helps!
i know it can be really confusing
beth


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Okay, so I've found several freshened does sired by The Full Monty:

Betty Boop (awesome foreudder!) 
Kiss Me Kate (they said they'd like to see a little more extension to the fore)
Marilyn Monroe (quite nice, I thought)
Ginger Rogers (looks quite nice but not an up-close photo)
Daisy Mae (looks nice enough; can't really tell from pic)
Lil Miss Sunshine (very nice udder!!)
Pippin (they said very smooth fore and well-extended)

They just rave about his sister Striptease - I can't tell for sure on her foreudder, maybe you can help me a bit on that??? She's at the bottom of their senior does page. Her udder looks nice to me but could the fore blend a little more smoothly?

This is a quote from the Poppy Patch site on Monty:



> Getting this buck was probably one of the best things to happen to our little herd. He has been producing kids with improved traits in all areas. Monty has produced some very nice kids and grandkids both here and in other herds. His Granddaughter MCH/CH Twin Creeks WB Fanciful owned by the Everwood herd in CA finished her Championship in both registries this year. We have high hopes for his daughter Betty after what the judges had been saying about her all last season.


The buck that Marilyn is going to be bred to, Rebel W/O a Cause *S is super nice and has consistently thrown daughters with nice udders and great MSL's (something we could fix in some of our does). He has two CH daughter and several that have earned their "stars" for milk production.

So, that's what I got. . . . .


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Okay, just found a grand-daughter of Monty up in the Silver Aurora herd in Alaska. I LOVE this doe, her udder is so, so awesome to me!  Here's a quote from their site on her achievements:


> QSF DTI Patience*D*M AR(both registries)
> 2005 AND 2006 #2 High Score
> 2005 #2 High Milk - 6.6 pounds!!
> 2006 - BREED LEADER tied for 1st - 6.8 pounds!


Here's a pic of her udder with 12 hours of milk.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

there is a breeder who has two daughters out or rebel here in ca.. 
http://www.castlerockfarm.net/srdoes.html

the daughters are on the sr does page and are poppy and lupine. i plan on getting my next buck here in two years

she also has grandaughters


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Sweet! I'll check it out, thanks!


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

I really mike marilyn. I also love betty boops foreudder. definatly one that i would hang onto if i had her. She could use a little more dairyness. but just because she isnt as dairy does not mean her kids are not going to be. The only thing i would really like to change about marilyn is that she is a little short bodied, i believe she is a first freshener in that picture so that will come with time and maturity.
beth


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Whew! I just got the most awesomely long email from Poppy Patch!! I love it when breeders share all their knowledge with me!!  Okay, brief overview on what she said:

Jane milks 3 - 3 1/2 quarts a day!!! Sweet! She said she's a little on the taller side (22 1/2 inche, right at the limit but not over) but that she knows of, none of her kids have gone overheight, all are average-sized. Her shoulders are becoming a little loose as she ages (she said that could be because she tends to love to eat a lot and is overweight). Oh, Jane was bred to Rebel as she came into season again after being bred to Playboy, he may not have been tall enough. She said Jane's daughters have lovely skin texture and are very dairy. I was amazed at how much milk she gives and her udder is attached up high, not hanging low near her hocks. Shannon said that the only other doe who out-produced her was Semi Sweet who milked almost a gallon after freshening with quints!!



> Marilyn has a very smooth fore udder like Jane. Her teats are not quite as long and the placement is not quite as perfect(they point out just a tiny bit) I wasn't happy with how she was slightly uneven this year but that could be expected when a single kid gets left on to nurse. Really like her kid so far which will be the same breeding as this year with Rebel.





> If you really wanted the Playboy genetics yes I think Sunshine is an excellent choice. She is a much better looking doe in person. I was disapointed how tiny her udder looked in the pictures because it looked larger in person when she was at the show. Very high and wide in the rear, perfect teats and so smooth in the fore typical of Monty daughters. The 4 judges we showed under this year all put her up as an easy first with some other excellent yearlings in the classes. It was mostly for her udder but a couple also really commented on her correct feet and legs as well. If I could change her I would like to see her neck a bit longer.


There is a lot more but this is the gist. If I can afford a buckling from Semi Sweet, I would like one from her. I don't really need the "Playboy" genetics - more interested in the proven "Rebel" lines.


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