# Can I dehorn a 2 year old wether myself or do i need a vet?



## JRT

I have a 2 year old Wether with beautiful horns, and I really want to keep them, but my kids are afraid of them, and he pushes my older dehorned goats around with them something fierce, so i think they need to go. I have heard that you can put the castrator bands at the base of the horns, and then they will fall off after a couple weeks. Has any one had sucess doing this? how likely is it that he will grow unsightly scurs doing it this way rather than having the vet dehorn him? And just for curiosity, if I ever had a goat with really bad scurs, could i use the same method to to remove them? up to what age can I do this on a goat?


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## Rex

JRT, I've heard of the elastrator band method for years but have yet to find anyone who has successfully removed horns this way. I'm doubtful of the method because the center of the horn is a bony core so how is the rubber band supposed to cut the circulation inside the bone? Anyway. most people have adult horns surgically removed by a vet. It is expensive, bloody and traumatic for the goat. I know people who have done it and said they would never put another goat through the procedure. Might be a better option all the way around to simply sell the goat to someone who wants one with horns.


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## sweetgoatmama

The elastrator procedure only works if you first cut a notch iaround the horn to get into the quick. THis is very painfual for the goat and can lead to sinus infections that can be fatal. Messing with a goat's horns after they have grow is really not a nice thing for the goat. Rex is right, find him a home and get another goat.


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## cryptobrian

JRT said:


> I have heard that you can put the castrator bands at the base of the horns, and then they will fall off after a couple weeks. Has any one had sucess doing this? how likely is it that he will grow unsightly scurs doing it this way rather than having the vet dehorn him?


Last year I visited a farm that used this method exclussively. They said they had a hard time using the iron (which I took to mean mostly lack of experience/training/confidence) and so started using the bands. I've never seen such a mess made of horns! All were unsightly and has significant "stumps" with hoorible scurs and side-growths requiring additional bandings, etc.


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## JRT

Thanks for the insight. As for the scur question, A couple people have indicated that you can just cut scurs off, but what about really big scurs? For example, I looked at a couple goats that the seller has packed for a couple years, but they have huge scurs, I guess from a disbudding gone wrong. They were about as big at the base as a normal horn, and he would have to cut off several inches every year with a sawsall (but the way he was doing it, there would still be a 3 inch stump, which was quite unsightly). They would also bleed when cut, but not for too long. Would the castrator band idea work better in that situation? Would it be a long term fix? would it prevent them from growing back?

As for my 2 year old with the horns, one of my concerns is that as he is not yet packable agewise, I would worry that if he goes to a home where they may have a little less patience than me, that he will just end up as dinner. As for the castrator band idea, what if I had the vet give him some topical antisthetic before we filed the notches in the quick? One reason I was drawn to the banding idea was because it ultimately sounded a lot less painful and invasive for the goat, and I assume would be of lesser risk of infection with the horns protecting the eventual wound until they gradually fell off. Once the horns fall off, do you know if there is still a bloody hole left, or will it have partially healed over by the time the horn comes off?


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## sanhestar

Hello,

one suggestion: if you have someone nearby who butchers goats and has horned goats, ask him if you can have the head of a butchered, horned goat. Saw off the horns near the head and take a look for yourself.

It's a mess, regardless how you do this procedure and I would never consider it.

What I would consider is training (him), teaching your kids about correct behaviour around animals (you're talking about human kids, right?) and looking at your housing situation if you don't want to sell him. Why not taking him out on trips and hikes? He's full of energy he don't know where to put. 

At age two, they really have to form their characters. In German one expression is "sich die HÃ¶rner abstossen" = to shave off one's horns (wonder where this is coming from  )

And one last thought: if he has a bad character and not only is acting out (don't know if that's true for this goat) he may be better off in a freezer.


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## JRT

Well, he isnt really a bad goat by anymeans, he is for the most part just young. In fact, when on walks and the trail, he is the one that always comes first when called and stays right by my side when on the move. But he is not very careful with his horns sometimes. I have been working the squirt bottle to try and curb him of his tendanacy to pick fights with the other goats when Im nearby, and it works for the most part. One worry I have though, is that my other older goats (ages 4 and 6) do not have horns, and came from a hornless herd. My two year old with the horns pushes them around a lot, and he has definately taken the dominant role, and I wonder how the other hornless goats will ultimately fare having to take orders from a much younger goat. Or am I just making mountains out of molehills?


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## Herb

There's a large sinus under those horns and it would be a big hole. I doubt the skin could grow back over such a larger opening. Be tough to keep clean, infections more than likely. I'd let them be.


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## Perry

â€œI wonder how the other hornless goats will ultimately fare having to take orders from a much younger goat. Or am I just making mountains out of molehills?â€ This part- yes.

We have one horned goat with our otherwise hornless herd. Heâ€™s dominate, but itâ€™s not a big deal. 
However, every goat is different. A really dominate, aggressive goat could be a problem.

In your first post you said â€œbut my kids are afraid of themâ€. As Sabine said, I assume you mean human kids. You can do something like putting tennis balls on the tips of the horns when your kids are around to reduce the chance of injury. But, if you canâ€™t teach the goat to fully respect and be careful around your kids 100% of the time; which may be difficult/ impossible if your kids are acting afraid; then you have a serious problem/disaster waiting to happen. You and the goat would probably be much better off to find a new home for the goat.

â€œBut he is not very careful with his horns sometimes.â€ Perhaps, but more likely he knows exactly what he is doing with his horns.


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## sanhestar

Perry said:


> â€œBut he is not very careful with his horns sometimes.â€ Perhaps, but more likely he knows exactly what he is doing with his horns.


I agree. He knows where the tips of his horns are from scratching himself and avoiding bumping into door frames and such all day.

It's partly the age, again and partly missing training.


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## JRT

Well, you guys are certainly making sense. In the past couple days Ive taken him and the older goats on several walks and a packed hike yesterday. He is getting better, and in fact on yesterdays hike was the most obedient out of the bunch. Except for one incident where one of the older goats got too close to him and he made a quick motion with his horns and it startled the other two goats nearby and they about pushed over a friend of mine in the fray. I still have some concerns that this new found dominance isnt the best thing for a 2 year old, as he had come from a horned herd where he was not dominant, and in a matter of weeks his whole life changed to where now he is top dog. I just wonder if it will emotionally damage him for the future. Is the life of the dominant goat just ment to be a life of solitude? cause the other goats just all keep their distance from him now, so that is another worry too that because he is so young, that he may be overly agressive with the rest of the herd and therefore be left out more that he otherwise would have.


Just as a side note, I spoke to a gentleman yesterday that has dairy goats, and he had done the banding method to dehorn a few times when he had purchased goats that had not been disbudded in their infancy, and said that it usually left unsightly scurs. He had one good experience with a vet in Utah though, I guess the vet had cut back the hide around the horn before removing the horn, then used the flaps of ski and streched them over the wound and sewed them into place over the sinus hole. The goat was under the whole surgery and there were no infections afterwards and the wound healed much quicker than otherwise. But he did say it cost a pretty penny to have it done that way.


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## Bob Jones

On bad behavior:

I used to believe that man had evolved from dogs rather than from monkeys as is the common myth. Look at the evidence, we have dens where we relax in the evening, canine teeth, a few administrations ago they said we had a b**** in the White House. 

I was one of those triple alpha types... walk in the bar, claim territory, mark territory. "Yep, you're mine... You're mine too." That's what drinking beer is all about. To help you mark territory.

A couple years before I got married I became a changed man. I just had to realize that there was someone bigger than me. Then my behavior just fell into place.

It's the same with animals. An animal that has bad dominance behaviors just doesn't know it's place. Each kind of animal communicates dominance differently. 

For clues, you generally look at how a parent treats the babies. Dogs and cats get bit on the neck as they get carried by the neck and placed in dark places. Goats butt each other, and 'mount' each other. The pros here say the ultimate dominance is flipping it. (Holding it down until it submits.) Holding a baby goat accomplishes the same thing. You need to be the dominant goat and put the boundaries on him. When you are established, and consistently provide those boundaries, he no longer has to fall into the role of the senior goat, and it frees him to play well with the others. (Since flipping works so well, you don't have to get into butting contests with them.)

The behavior of my kids changed immediately when I got older goats. The one who thought he was boss, got outranked immediately, and his behavior changed as he fell into the new role. As the older goats accepted me, even their position on the trail changed.

Their hierarchical behaviors are instinctive, so even an old goat can play a submissive role once there is a more dominant individual (even if it is you), around. 

Someday I need to finish about the yaks, but the woman who had house broken yaks said that the way that you get along with a yak is to not challenge it's dominance. Where does a 1200 lb yak lie down? Anywhere it wants to. I suspect that her description of a house-broken yak was a typographical error that should have said "broken-house" yak.

You can train out instinctive behaviors, but it is easier to provide the clues to trigger them in your favor.

This old dog learned new tricks. So don't worry too much about permanently damaging his psyche due to this misalignment of hierarchy. Just jump into the mix and let him know who is boss. Worry more about permanent damage done by learned behaviors. A goat is so egocentric that it is proud when it has learned something new. You capitalize on this by rewarding him well and reminding him of it. If it is a bad behavior, then attempts to un-teach it can have the opposite effect of reinforcing it since they really think the act of consciously learning it is being commemorated. Instead you have to make them forget they learned it.

An example: The goat learned it can tear at the fence until it can get out. No amount of squirt bottle, clicking, coaxing, etc will ever teach the goat not to tear at the fence. You can even patch the fence, and the goat thinks it is a monument to his intelligence. You make him forget that he learned how to do that by building a new fence of a different type. Then he forgets what the old fence looked like, and that he had learned to get through it.

The pros here are wrong... The ultimate dominance is making taco meat. ;-)

**Side note: I think that when you are scratching a goat and it moves such that you are scratching near the pin bones, that it is submitting as well. Anyone else observe this?


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## sanhestar

How long do you have him now? Why did you buy him? Have you spoken with the breeder about his behaviour?

He might have been pushed into a position he doesn't want and may have to grow into it and also the older wethers may give him a hard time even though you might not see the sometime subtle signs of challenging behaviour (not giving way fast enough, posing, shaking heads, challenging him when he wants right of way). A "really" dominant animal does not need to rely on aggressive behaviour that much as soon as its position is established. But animals that are challenged by the other herd members have to re-assert themselves again and again.

Look at the whole herd, not just him. Look at the situation BEFORE he bashes another goat.

And again: it's age. At around three years the bucks begin to battle for dominant positions in the buck groups in earnest.

And if he's new to the herd he may still have to find a friend. This can take up to a year. And he's singled out by several things: his horns, his age, him being from another herd. Imagine how you would feel in a group where you stood out like a sore toe....

And I know from the - now former - leader of our herd that the dominant position is a lonely one. He's training his replacement for about 6 months now (interestingly a now 3 year old) and after 7 years he's finally able to come up to me for some knoodling (he always stayed away and was uncomfortable to show "weakness"). They will share leadership for a while I think until he finally steps down to a middle rank position.


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## Cazz

Hi Everyone,
I've only just joined but I've been hanging around for a few weeks, and thought I should probably get around to registering.  
Anyway, just wanted to say, JRT, you can ring your wether's horns, the rings to a wonderful job, are safe, easy, not too painful, and don't grow scurs when properly done. They can also be used to ring scurs from bad disbudding/bad horn ringing. Every goat that we have gotten with horns has either no horns, or any horn it has got have rings on them. We've had great success with them, since being told about rings when I went to my first ever show and took along a goat we had gotten as a horned kid. We ringed her horns, but not quite low enough, so she grew scurs, one was ringed early and fell off very soon, the other was a lot smaller so I ringed it later and it also fell off. She hasn't grown scurs since. Most of the other horned ones had the rings put on nice and low, so there weren't any scurs at all, but we do have a buck kid who we didn't ring low enough and he has scurs that look just like horns with the tip cut off, they about 1 inch or a bit less, which we'll ring as soon as they are big enough to get a hold on. When I read about Cuzco, I immediatly thought of rings, but then found many of you like the horns. The rings are fantastic when used rightly, and can turn the meanest goat (the ones that are mean in the absence of people and just tolerable when you're there) into a quiet gentle goat, especially as the horns get weaker and they learn not to butt. They can butt fine afterwards, but it is good training for a bossy goat, and far more effective than any human punishment as their horns hurt every time they butt anyone. Here are a few photos:
Jint with both of her horns
[attachment=1:33j22gz9]101_8316-Jint-25%+crop+rotate.JPG[/attachment:33j22gz9]

This is Jint after we had taken her horns off. 
[attachment=0:33j22gz9]102_1865-Jint-25%+crop.JPG[/attachment:33j22gz9]
She is also tame enough to walk up to and lead here - she was totally wild when we got her.
I was very silly and didn't get any photos of her as a Unigoat, as we call them, but I'll post some pics of other ones we have/have had if you want them. I can also give you pics of other goats that have succesfully lost both horns and look great, if you'd like to see them or the before/after ones.
All the best with your wether! And yes, the de-horning also takes away their bossiness and social status, though they can fight and look after themselves perfectly when both horn sites aare healed. (within a week of losing them nomally)
Cazz


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## ryorkies

Sully has scurs.
Both are wiggly. One is curving into his head. But since it is wiggly I think it will just curl back up and around. It is a small
one. I was told I could band them. I wanted to talk with 
more experienced people about it before I did it. 

I imagine I would need to get the band down into or near the hair line?

I was told that sometimes his larger scur breaks off and bleeds.
I will try and get some photos today. 

R.


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## Rex

Cazz said:


> Hi Everyone,
> I've only just joined but I've been hanging around for a few weeks, and thought I should probably get around to registering.
> Anyway, just wanted to say, JRT, you can ring your wether's horns, the rings to a wonderful job, are safe, easy, not too painful, and don't grow scurs when properly done. They can also be used to ring scurs from bad disbudding/bad horn ringing. Every goat that we have gotten with horns has either no horns, or any horn it has got have rings on them. We've had great success with them, since being told about rings when I went to my first ever show and took along a goat we had gotten as a horned kid.
> Cazz


Hi Cazz,
Welcome to the forum. I'd love to see some close up photos of how the horns are ringed and where exactly that the bands are placed to accomplish a clean horn removal. Also, how long is the whole process from the time the horns are ringed until they come off?


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## ryorkies

Rex said:


> Hi Cazz,
> Welcome to the forum. I'd love to see some close up photos of how the horns are ringed and where exactly that the bands are placed to accomplish a clean horn removal. Also, how long is the whole process from the time the horns are ringed until they come off?


Rex:
Good Questions. I would like to hear this too.
I went back and looked close seen the bands in the first picture.
They are right at the hair line.


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## Cazz

Thanks Rex! 
I took a lot of pics this morning of some of the goats with ringed horns or no horns, and also of horns that have come off and where each one should/was ringed to get it off like that. They will hopefully be uploaded this morning, and I might have them up by tonight.
I just checked my milk measurements (the only reliable diary for the last few years) and the first goat who lost her horns had her second horn fall off 4 months after originally being ringed. However, we have since refined the technique and the goat in the photos lost her first horn one month and fourteen days after being ringed, and her second horn thirteen days after the first horn. 
The buck kid we did lost his horns within a month or two (can't seem to find a record of either coming off) and most of the scurs took a week to a month, depending on their size. One doe that we have ahs very stubborn horns, and the first one fell off eight months after we put the rings on, and the second horn hasn't fallen off yet - another 6 months later! The rings weren't put on that well though, and when I post pics I'll use them to demonstrate where the rings should be - where they aren't on her. 

Here the basic instructions that I use (it gets so automatic that you won't think about it after three or four times)
1. Push all the hair back around the horn and find where the horn joins the skin - there is a ridge, but sometimes only very small.
2.Rub a finger around the base of the horn to make sure where the ridge is, and if it is small, get a file and, just above the skin, file in at least 1ml - the bigger the horns, the deeper in you go. If the horn has a sharp front, you will need to file into that whether or not you need to file around the whole lot. You can normally get away with a deepish dent in the front corner, and a slight indentation around the back and smooth part of the front. Feel the line around the horn to make sure the place for the ring is level right around the horn, and that there are no 'hills' between the vallyes that wouldflick the ring off.
3. The goat, by this time, will be getting a bit nervous, so you'll need to talk to it and tell it everything's okay, and if it is a bit of a hyper-active goat, tie it short or put on some sort of stand. A bit of feed for the more nervous goats also works really well. Next, get an elastrator (we just use the normal sized one, but for huge horns a larger one would be needed) and put a ring on, if possible, a little lower down the prongs than normal so that it is easier to get off.
4. Hold the elastrator at nearly 90 degrees to the goat's body, a little closer to 180 degrees as you lower it over the horn, and then line the 'prongs' up with each corner of the horn when the elastrator is about 1cm above the head.
5. The tricky part. Using one finger, push the section of ring at the front of the horn off the two front prongs into the front groove, then quickly turn the elastrator so that the back section of ring is as close as possible to the head without touching the head, and pop off the back section of ring. If the goat is calm, or the horns are big, it will just shake it's head, sometimes not even that. If the horns are very small, the goat may not do anything, or it may jump and marr - not almost as loudly as being disbudded, and normally only one or two marrs if at all.
6. Check the ring to make sure it is in the dints made for it - if it hasn't, try to roll it in, but occasionally (especially the first few times) it will have popped off where it can't be rolled into the groove, and that ring can be either left or rolled up.
7. Then you put the second ring - I always put the second ring below the first, as the lower the better, but almost on top of or just above the first is alright if you got the first one 'perfect'. Two rings are needed because their horns are strong - for a really large goat, three or four rings will insure more speed in removal, but even the smallest goat needs at least two. I on;y put one on each horn of a tiny horned kid we got a few months ago, and one horn is broken (very neatly at the base) but the ring doesn't have the strength to finish it off quickly, and I don't have the heart to put another one on while it's hurting so badly. In this siuation, I'll need to wait either for her horn to fall off, if the ring is in the right position, or until her horn strengthens and then put another ring on.

I'll post pics to show the 'perfect' position and to illustrate the different points.
ryorkies, just make sure with scurs that you get them nice and low. If the scurs are very small, they don't matter quite as much as they just 'twist' off, leaving a very tiny stump that doesn't grow and is soon covered by hair.

Cazz


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## Cazz

Hi again
Here are the photos (sorry - there are quite a lot!)

[attachment=4:1hbvj05u]102_3154-Bella-horn-25%+75%+crop.JPG[/attachment:1hbvj05u]
This is a front view of Bella's horn - the rings are quite a lot higher than they should be. If you look carefully, you will see a lump below the empty dent -directly below that bump is the best position. The dent below the rings currently there is from the rings before these - I will have to put new rings either in them, or below that lump (in the perfect position) if I can.

[attachment=3:1hbvj05u]102_3173.-Bella-horn-25%+70%.jpg[/attachment:1hbvj05u]

This is a side view of the same horn as above. The rings are a bit high at the back, but very high at the front. At the back they should be just below the slightly darker line, and at the front the rings should be just where the horn disappears into the hair - I have brushed the hair back with my finger in this picture so the horn is visible at the point where it joins the head, although it would normally be hidden under the hair. The rings should go directly from the back to the slightly lower place on the front, and if the ring tries to belly up in the middle, the horn will need a bit of filing. I couldn't get the hair in the middle to lie flat, otherwise the course where the rings should go would be in clear view.

[attachment=2:1hbvj05u]102_3135-Pookie-horn-01-25%+70%+crop.JPG[/attachment:1hbvj05u]
This photo is of Pookie's horns - I was rather silly as I mentioned and only put one ring on. If you look carefully at the farther horn, you will see where it had started to come up. Immediately above that would be the perfect position, but the ring is in a very good one anyway, which is why it has started to come off so quickly. The closer horn has the ring on quite a bit too high as can be seen more clearly in the next pic

[attachment=1:1hbvj05u]102_3133.-Pookie-horns-25%+cropJPG.jpg[/attachment:1hbvj05u]

In this photo, it is more obvious how one horn is bent back, and the ring positions are easier to see. The right horn should have two rings on just below where the horn disappears into the hair, while the left one should have another ring on directly below the one already on there.

[attachment=0:1hbvj05u]102_3189-Cookie's-horns-25%+60%.JPG[/attachment:1hbvj05u]

In this photo you can see the higher rings have been there for longer and have made quite an indentation already, but the correct position is where the lowest rings are and one ring-width below that. The tiny bit of horn visible below each bottom ring is the perfect position, but the lowest current rings are still in a very good and effective place. The 'perfect' position just takes the horns off at record speed, and the rings are not able to slip off because the base of the horn swells slightly as it rises above the goat's head and holds the ring down. That insures that you don't need to file if you get the ring perfectly in place.
I'll add a few more pics in a following post.
Cazz


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## Cazz

Here are some before, in between and after photos of Megs, with explanations of her horns, scurs and all that.

[attachment=4:176jonyq]100_8833.Megs-25%+crop.JPG[/attachment:176jonyq]
Megs with both her horns - note they are curved out which is why the later photo I will put up has her horns curved out

[attachment=3:176jonyq]101_1554.1-horned-Megs-25%+2crops-08.JPG[/attachment:176jonyq]
One horned Megs - look closely and you will see the stub of the other horn which didn't get taken off and later grew a scur

[attachment=2:176jonyq]102_0421-Megs-30%+crop.JPG[/attachment:176jonyq]
Megs without either horn but with her second scur ringed

[attachment=1:176jonyq]102_3131.-Megs-25%+cropJPG.jpg[/attachment:176jonyq]
Megs without either horn or scur

[attachment=0:176jonyq]102_3128-Megs-horn-sight-30%+crop.JPG[/attachment:176jonyq]
The back of Meg's head. The scurs both twisted off, hence the light remains, which are less than 1cm high and haven't grown at all since losing her scurs.

I'll post more later.
Cazz


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## Rex

Basically it looks like you need to get the ring just below the horn and onto the soft tissue at the base where the horn growth occurs. Is that correct?


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## Herb

That's right Rex. Usually takes two or three weeks for a horn to come of the goats we have banded. The goats don't like it, we usually make them sleepy before banding any horns, but it does work. Wouldn't do it on a two year old.


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## ryorkies

Herb said:


> That's right Rex. Usually takes two or three weeks for a horn to come of the goats we have banded. The goats don't like it, we usually make them sleepy before banding any horns, but it does work. Wouldn't do it on a two year old.


would you do it on a 3 year old scur horn?
the scur is wiggly.

Still need to get photos. 
Thank you, R


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## Cazz

Rex, that's about the perfect, normally I do on the lowest ridge of the horn, which is quickest because it contracts the horn off rather than cutting below it. However, it doesn't matter if it is on the horn or off, as long as it is very near to the bottom of the horn - the distance from the horn where it will take off the whole horn is relative to the goat's size as well.
Herb, we've done two, three and four year olds, and I'd say it'd work work on a goat till the day it died.  Megs and Bella are both over three years old. The older them goat, normally the longer it takes - but Jint is older than both Bella and Megs, and since her horns were smaller they fell off a lot quicker. 
ryorkies - Any scur that you can fit the elastrator on is fine, you just need to make sure that the rings can't slip off. 
When I get time I'll post a few pics of the horns that came off so you can see what it looks like. (unless I've posted too many photos already?!)  
Cazz


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## Rex

It just seems to me like the bone in the center of the horn would stay on their head. I'm really surprised it comes off as well. What kind of remnants are left on the head when a horn finally falls off? Is their bone underneath or a hollow cavity?


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## sweetgoatmama

Wiggly scurs can be cut back an inch at a time without problems as they have little or no blood supply.And if there is a little blood it will cauterize as you cut it and get smaller. 

Use a pair of bolt cutters than have been soaked in bleach.

Another thing you can do with horns is to start when the kid is young and every month rasp the tips round. You go into the growth area a little and stunt the growth without damaging the sinuses or causing infections. You'll end up with a horned adult but with very short horns that are round on the ends that are less intimidating and don't get caught on things. 

Taking horns off an adult is problematic due to the underlying structures. Horns not only grow out, they grow down into the base of the skull and open into the sinuses. You can get a really bad infection that can kill them by messing with horn growth this way.


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## Cazz

Rex, although it looks like bone when it is on the head, horns are actually hollow other than meat and blood. I haven't got any good pics on this computer, but here is a pic of some of our horns:
[attachment=0:2pza5jv4]102_3259.-horns-30%+cropJPG.jpg[/attachment:2pza5jv4]
Bella's horn is second from right, although you can't see well from this angle, the one of our dogs found it and knawed out some of the meat. Megs' ones were both found very soon - one about 1 second after it came off (it came off in my hand :shock: ) and the other the day after it came off. Both horns had the inside rot out mostly after a month or two of sitting on a bench. I'll put up some pics looking into the horns if you would like to see what the inside of a horn looks like.  Also, if you notice the pair on the left, they both have that piece sticking out the front - that bit was left on Bella's head, which means her horn base covers more area on her head. Jint's on the far right, didn't have the front bit at all. You might notice also that Megs' horns both have a semi-circular dip in them - that dip was the bit left on her head that grew into scurs and was ringed. If her horns had come off like Jint's, there wouldn't have been any scurs in the first place, but thankfully when we ringed her scurs, they both came off with a flat base, which means that there is not really any scur left. 
When the horns come off, normally they leave a tiny 'twist' of horn, like you can see on Megs' head. Jint had just a tiny flat piece of horn on each base that was thinner than a coin, and that didn't grow at all - like a cap that was indented into her head. 
sweetgoatmama, none of ours got any type of infection, or even looked to have any chance of one, and there was no bone or hole or insides of any of their head visible.  The blood from the horns that got knocked off sealed the head in for a few weeks, and the ones that dropped off didn't have any problems at all. We disinfected all of them, I can't remember the name of it but it's an bright purple animal disinfectant, I'll get the name if you would like it.
I can get some more pics of the tops of their heads directly after losing their horns if you would like them.
Cazz


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## Herb

A 2 year old will have much larger bases than those off the does. They are hollow and there will be a large open sinus once it comes off an older goat. Infection, flys, may not close up, lots of possible poor outcomes. Best to do it at an early are if possible.


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## Cazz

It depends on the size of the horn, as there are full grown (6 year old) bucks I have seen with horns not much bigger than 2 year olds. Even a very big horn should be no drama - as I mentioned, we never had holes or openings in the goats' heads, and if there were open sinuses, they must have closed up pretty quickly as there weren't any holes when the horn was nearly off or just after.  Definately the younger the better, but it is quite possible (in my experience) and very sensible (in my experience) to take horns off if/when you don't want them. I've never had any problem or cause to worry, except the first time when I didn't know what to expect, and although it may be different in other's experience, I've found it to be a great soloution and it has worked extremely well for us.  
Cazz


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## lonitamclay

I have used the rubber bands after notching the base of the horn. It do believe it does hurt them and some cry and others have sensitive head for a while. Or you can cut them off but I think that is bad or even worse. I prefer the band or have the vet.


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## ryorkies

Here is Sullys scur. 
It is a little pink on the top.[attachment=0:3lx63k4e]IMG_1304.jpg[/attachment:3lx63k4e]


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## Cazz

That's not too big at all ryorkies. One of our bucks had huge scurs, and the bands worked well although we had to get one scur cut off because it was growing down between two other scurs and was too sensitive befroe it got to that stage for us to put a ring on. Once they have had a ring on there is also far less blood.
lonitamclay, some definately get hurt, some seem to have the most insensitive heads! Cookie, one of the ones' who has a photo below, got of her horn snapped really nicely and neatly yesterday, and not a whimper! Not even a grunt. It will probably come off within days. Megs, on the other hand - she started marring as soon as we originally put the rings on! Partly because she is a pain freak though. :roll:  She was fighting one of the disbudded yearlings today though, and I don't think it was her with a sore head! :shock: They were really going for it, and she didn't have the slightest worry about using her strong little head.
Cazz


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## fivemoremiles

Rex
there is three weeks of healing going on as the horn comes off and there is no hollow cavity.
I am surprised that they put the bands so high on the horn. I try to get the bands down in to the hair at the base of the horn.


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## Cazz

Hi fivemoremiles, Were you meaning I put the rings on so high? As in the photos on the previous page? Yes, all of the ones except Jint (top photo) are on way too high, as it says in the text - the ring should be absolutely as low as it will go, I often go onto the edge of the skin if possible. The lower the better, less chance of scurs, neater and cleaner, and any scurs that do grow are flat and don't curl anywhere, very easy to remove and very slow growing. As you can see with Bella especially (the first goat we ever did) we put the rings way too high, then the rings came off and left an unpleasant looking dint, squishing the horn but not taking it off, and then the next rings we put on were again too high - they were actually purposefully put too high to fit into the previous dints and therefore take the horn off a lot quicker, after which we could finish it up by ringing the scurs left. I have ringed a few scurs on her since her second horn came off in 2010, and her head is now flat and neat. Pookie, also, whose photos are shown with the rings far too high, has a nice flat with no scurs. The other two (Jint and Cookie) have been sold.

The higher you do it, the worse it looks afterwards as well.

I have been perfecting my technique over the last three years, and now I never get any stub left on the head and it normally only takes 1-2 months from rings on to both horns off and healing up nicely - just depends how good the goats are at rolling the rings off their horns or snapping them. I now normally do three-four rings on each horn, since even if they roll two off there is at least one left, and I don't have to go putting more on when their head is sensitive already.
Even when the horn has only come off a few seconds before, there is no real cavity, just a little dip which heals over pretty quickly. It then re-grows hair and looks normal within a few weeks to a month, but it is normally scabbed over and starting to heal within half a day. 

If anyone is interested, I can post photos of the last half dozen goats or so who I have done in the last two months. Some haven't had both of their horns come off yet, and several haven't had either, but you can see how I do them.
Cheers,
Cazz


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## TDG-Farms

Had a pack prospect that another breeder saw and insisted on buying him for a breeder. He was 14.5 lbs at birth (a single) and even at birth his bases were to big to disbud. So about 2 weeks ago had the vet come out and de horn him. His bases were the size of the button ring of a pop can. Vet gave him something to put him out, though he never went all the way out. AND then gave him a dozen or so locales around the horns, eyes and ears. Trimmed the hair away and then used a wire saw to cut the horns off at the base. There are 4-6 blood vessels supplying each horn and they sprayed blood like pushing liquid out a needle and syringe (about 4 feet if left on covered). He had a calf iron waiting hot and burnt the surrounding outer ring of the base, where the blood vessels are. It took a bit but for the most part stopped the bleeding. Then repeated on the other horn. He came back with the iron to extend the burn radius and then cut off any over lapping skin and hair. All in all, a clean looking job. Only one of the horns opened up into the nasal cav. Put a antibiotic power on, cover with cotton and wrapped with vet wrap (Tight). Went back an hour later to loosen per the vets instructions and the boy, who was suppose to be out for the next 6 hours and jump outta his pen (18" high), didnt figured I needed to put the door on. But he was standing in the middle of the barn swaying. Loosened the vet wrap, put him back in the pen. 2 hours later we let him outta the pen and he was playing and jumping and having a good time. Had a syringe of pain med waiting for when the locale wore off but he never needed. Separated him and his damn to a pen of their own for 7 days. Cut the vet wrap off but the cotton stayed stuck to his head as the vet said it would and it fell off today. The bases look outstanding. Thou, there is still a hole in the side. Not as big but its there. Vet said it might and will call him tues to come out and deal with it. But no infection and 98% healed. Total cost $80.00 including farm call.

Now with all the being said and even though everything went perfectly on such large horns on such a young kid, we will never do that again. Its just to drastic. We dont use the banding method, we dis bud with a dis budding iron OR a calf iron on keeper bucks. For best results on bucks, do your circle burn around the base and then another half moon in front of it. Make sure you iron is clean of scale. You can use 1000 grit sand paper to sand off all the scale. The cleaner the head of the iron is the quicker and hotter it will heat up. No longer then a quick count of 10 for each burn. We like to keep a few cold packs ready and use them between burns if needed. Anything cold instantly stop the pain of a burn. If one felt so inclined, you could hold a cold pack over the burns for an hour or so. After which time, there should be no pain. Do as many burns as it takes for the cap of the horn to pop off and then a quick one all around to seal up the exposed horn.


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## Cazz

Dave said:


> We dont use the banding method, we dis bud with a dis budding iron OR a calf iron on keeper bucks. For best results on bucks, do your circle burn around the base and then another half moon in front of it. Make sure you iron is clean of scale. You can use 1000 grit sand paper to sand off all the scale. The cleaner the head of the iron is the quicker and hotter it will heat up. No longer then a quick count of 10 for each burn. We like to keep a few cold packs ready and use them between burns if needed. Anything cold instantly stop the pain of a burn. If one felt so inclined, you could hold a cold pack over the burns for an hour or so. After which time, there should be no pain. Do as many burns as it takes for the cap of the horn to pop off and then a quick one all around to seal up the exposed horn.


Hi Dave,
We disbud every horned kid born on the property, and of the kids born or bought, every goat kept, as well as almost every goat sold, is disbudded (I have only ever left one horned kid un-disbudded that I have sold as well - in this instance, there were no children and two horned goats at the property he was going to, otherwise I would definitely not have sold him to them horned despite them asking), however I buy and sell quite a lot of goats and many of them are already over one month old. (I often buy or am given goats between 1 and 5 years old, does, occasionally bucks and wethers as well) 
With these ones, almost all of them are horned, and I like to take the horns off before sale or even if we are keeping them. I do have some horned goats who I am leaving the horns on (they are Angora does who are meant to have horns for showing, are all show quality and have been shown previously with success, who I got all over several years old, and who are quite a timid nature, tending to stick together and therefore not too dangerous to the other goats or people) but almost all horned goats prove themselves dangerous very soon - pretty much every dairy and meat breed goat with horns I have ever gotten has picked up other goats under the belly, risking tearing their stomachs open, and is willing to stab, throw or ram other goats with their horns, which is totally unacceptable behaviour here, and any horned goat showing these traits has it's horns ringed very soon. 
With the kids I disbud, I always do two burns on each of every buck or wethers' horns, and ten-fifteen seconds for each burn for all kids, depending on horns size and strength. Afterwards, they get a bottle of milk and a pat, and are as happy as ever.  
Cheers,
Cazz


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## TDG-Farms

You go Cazz!  Im to big a wuss to do it myself. I let my other half have all the fun hehe.


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## Rift

This whole discussion makes me sick to my stomach, especially thinking you can do it yourself. I am a veterinarian and everyday I see rotten abscessed teeth, dangling limbs, lacerations with sticks and leaves stuck in them, huge necrotic tumors and limping around animals that the owners claim the animal is not in pain because they don't whine about it like us homosapiens. I always wonder--what are they thinking??
If you really think cutting off his horns is better than finding a new home that likes his horns, then please let a compassionate veterinarian do it and provide him with appropriate anesthesia and follow up pain medicine, because I am pretty sure it will hurt.
It is always possible for a re-homed animal to get in a worse situation so one has to be careful and responsible choosing the right home and follow up on it. It is very common to think only you can provide the best home for your animal, but not necessarily true.
Had to speak up, since they can't!


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## Cazz

I really appreciate your view Rift, and I think you have a very valid point. There is a fine line in being able to tell from an internet conversation (or any conversation) the difference (although there is a huge difference) between a safe and knowledgeable owner who knows what they are doing, loves their animals and sincerely tries their best to help them (including taking them to vets if needed, and especially when anything difficult, big or unknown comes up), and someone who is trying to cut corners, save money, and work things out in their best interest with no consideration for the animals for which they are responsible. We have a very good relationship with our local vets, and (thankfully) they are very happy to chat to us on the phone about any concerns we have and give us advice for something we are not sure about, or to recommend we bring the animal in if we/they think it is serious.
However, for myself, I would never attempt anything which I was not sure about, and I held over 50 goat kids, lambs etc. for a very experienced operator to disbud before I even thought about disbudding my own kids. With plenty of practical, on the job learning and experiences, as well as instruction and guidance from this person (as well as reading up on the subject from many different sources and talking to others) I was ready to disbud my own. 
I am (and those who have kids disbudded by me are) happy with job I do, and I am convinced that the job is done competently, safely and humanely.

In the same way, I would never attempt to cut off a goatsâ€™ horns from the research I have done, and I have discussed the removal of horns with several local vets and some long-time goat owners. After seeing the failure of cutting off horns to be a safe, effective procedure (a local vet performed this operation on a friendâ€™s goat and it died from blood loss etc. despite all the proper equipment, anesthetic, ties, and everything else used by a professional vet), I explored other possibilities. After some research and advice from other goat-owners, I found that ringing goats horns was effective and was not known to be dangerous or potentially fatal, due to the lack of blood flow before the horn came off, and the healing which took place even before the horn is â€˜removedâ€™. After looking into how it was done, I attempted it myself, and the results are listed here â€“ or feel free to PM me for more information on my experiences.
I have become convinced of the safety to the goatsâ€™ health (I have never had any infection or dangerous complications, and despite un-planned results sometimes, they have always turned out fine and the goats are all happy and healthy) and of the effectiveness of removing horns with rings.
However, I would always recommend that anyone considering a procedure of which they know nothing should contact, and receive direct advice from, someone experienced in that field. I would also always strongly recommend that anyone considering something like this should research for themselves anything concerning their own animals, and show a strong interest in the care, safety and well-being of the animals under their care.
For myself, I am happy with the way this procedure works for me, and I recommend it to anyone who has a problem with their goatsâ€™ horns and who is willing to look into doing it properly and ensuring the health and safety of the goat at all times.
I am very sorry for the animals you have dealt with and the negligence you have experienced, and I apologize sincerely if I come across as judgmental or domineering. If you have any questions or do not agree with me, I am more than happy to discuss this with you further, and feel free to PM me. J
All the best,
Cazz


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## TDG-Farms

Removed comment because I consider this forum a learning platform and I enjoy posting and discussing opinions here. There is more then enough drama in day to day life, I just dont see a need to bring it here.  With that being said, ill just say, if you dont feel comfortable and confident with doing something yourself, at the very least contact a competent friend / vet or have that friend / vet do the job.


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## Cazz

Hi Dave,
I'm very sorry if I sounded like I was saying you might not care about you animals!  I did not mean anything like that and I could already see that you were experienced and loved your animals - nobody else says they are too big a wuss to disbud kids because of their marring.  
I do agree with you that for large animal farms (whose owners I would automatically presume are experienced and know what they are doing), it is not only unreasonable to have vets do their disbudding because they can often do it as well or better, but unpractical both for cost issues and sheer numbers of animals. I would also say that it is unreasonable for small holders who are knowledgeable in that area to have to get a vet to do it, as well as it not being profitable for a small hobby farm to sell their kids as pets when they have to pay a large sum just for disbudding. (over here disbudding can cost $90, and often cheap goat kids are sold for $70 or less) 
However, I do hold the opinion that Rift was not referring to disbudding, or tattooing, or other vet work specifically - to me it looks like the reference was to 'cutting off' the horns, which was why I replied with the fact that I wouldn't even get a vet to cut off my goats' horns as it is not safe. This


Rift said:


> If you really think cutting off his horns is better than finding a new home that likes his horns, then please let a compassionate veterinarian do it and provide him with appropriate anesthesia and follow up pain medicine, because I am pretty sure it will hurt.


seems to be saying (to me) that Rift does not think anyone except vets should cut off goats horns, which seems reasonable in some circumstances to me. (not that I would ever get a goats' horns cut off, as I have said, just if someone else is wanting to take a big risk and get them cut off instead of banded/ringed, then I would say they should probably look into getting a vet to do it, unless they are very knowledgeable in that area)

Just my opinion, and don't worry Dave, I don't feel uncomfortable.  I can totally relate to what you are saying, so all good. 
Cheers,
Cazz


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## TDG-Farms

Cazz, i read the first few words of your post and instantly made this reply. My reply was not aimed at you at all and have since removed my post for just this reason. Dont wanna create drama. I enjoy your posts, opinions and ideas. Your reply to Rift was great.


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## TDG-Farms

Maybe a "all about horns" lecture would be nice to have at a rendezvous. Would be a good time for peeps to put in their two cents and discuss techniques. Having never used the banding method, Id be interested in seeing / hearing more about that. Although we wouldnt use it in place of the iron, for scurs, it sounds like a neat idea.


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## Cazz

Dave said:


> Cazz, i read the first few words of your post and instantly made this reply. My reply was not aimed at you at all and have since removed my post for just this reason. Dont wanna create drama. I enjoy your posts, opinions and ideas. Your reply to Rift was great.


Thankyou.  I like to have others comment on my posts so I can see another view point and review my own posts in light of what others see, so if I made sense and come across as reasonably competent at explaining my views, that's great! 



Dave said:


> Maybe a "all about horns" lecture would be nice to have at a rendezvous. Would be a good time for peeps to put in their two cents and discuss techniques. Having never used the banding method, Id be interested in seeing / hearing more about that. Although we wouldnt use it in place of the iron, for scurs, it sounds like a neat idea.


That sounds really good, just sadly I'm in Australia so wouldn't have much chance to get over and chat with all of you.  
I am working on articles for my website, which will include in-depth instructions, examples, FAQs, lots of photos and explanations regarding removing horns with rings (I've got the basic instructions up so far  ), if that is of interest to you - the basic article is on the main page: www.waygara.com .
For people in my part of Australia, I am more than happy to do hands-on training and demos, and for everyone else, I might eventually get to make a video (or several) illustrating the technique to make it easier. 
Cheers,
Cazz


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## AACmama

Reading this entire thread from the beginning (43 posts!) has been fascinating. I appreciate all the experiences shared here.

We tried banding our wether's scurs after 2 poor disbuddings by a novice, er, "breeder" and a failed dehorning by our vet at 2 months of age. Our poor Gordy was in agony for several weeks with his bands and the scurs that grew back after the banding are mishapen and strong and gnarly. Banding had sounded like such a good idea...and I understand how it can work for others. I would LOVE to see a good demonstration, because I think we banded too high on the horns. Yet...ewww...we were not able to stomach the idea of filing notches below the skin level as recommended on the site we read (http://www.barnonemeatgoats.com/bandinghorns.html). Was that the same procedure you have settled on, Cazz? It sounds like you have had such good success. I would appreciate watching how you apply the bands...and what a great excuse for a vacation to Australia!

My husband and I agreed never to inflict such pain on our boys again. The banding hurt him--no question!!!--and was ineffective the way we did it. I wouldn't recommend it to fellow novices without some good training. Such training would sure be nice. Until my husband and I can get it, we've made a pact to only ever purchase disbudded boys from breeders with experience disbudding dozens of bucks.


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## TDG-Farms

I feel for you and your boys. Even when done on time (within the first week for boys) you just never really know how well a dis budding will take. On does is much easier due to their much smaller and slower growing horns. As I have never banded I can not speak intelligently on it but for scurs we use a wire saw (piece of braided wire cable with a loop on each end with a protective plastic cover). Hold the goats head firmly in place, place the saw as close to the skull as possible and start sawing by pulling with one hand and then the other. This will remove even full horns in seconds so will make fast work of any scur. Have a calf iron hot and waiting. It will hurt and bleed but not terrible. Can have a couple of cold packs waiting to apply to the burnt area once the bleeding has been stopped by the iron. The cold from the pack will instantly stop the pain in most cases. 

What you are trying to do is remove the scur so you can burn under it to stop the blood flow to the horn base. As long as there is blood flow, you will have a regrowing of scurs. Granted this is all nice and easy to type on the computer but a totally different story when actually doing it


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## Cazz

Hi AACmama,
That sounds terrible! Poor Gordy.  
No, the method outlined there (which I had actually come across several years ago but hadn't been able to find again) is quite a bit different from the method I use. I don't cut the skin, so don't shave the area or inject a painkiller. (though a painkiller would be a good idea if the goat was upset)

With the method I use, it normally works best when they are a bit older (around a year) instead of several months, although I did band a two/three month old doe kid for a friend in January/February this year who had big horns for her age, and I saw her yesterday and she had pretty much no regrowth at all. (probably half and inch or less)

The way I do it, the rings are just under the natural ride at the edge of the skin, or, if that ridge is very small, I file into the horn just above the skin and put the bands there. I am going to be banding another couple of goats in the next few days - one 9 month old wether who was a buck until six months, so BIG horns for his size, and one 22-23 month old doe â€" both of which we bought, hence they were not disbudded. The doe I had actually ringed previously, along with her sister - neither of them noticed at all after I let them out, and the other doe lost her horns months ago. However, this one managed to break the rings off, so I've waited for the horns to get nice and strong again so her horns won't be sensitive and she won't be in pain when I put this lot on. (in actual fact, I am a softie when it comes to the goats, so I don't ring their horns until they have established a good rank in the pecking order and have done something to the other goats with their horns which is totally unacceptable to me - stabbing/raking with their horns, throwing others into the air via a horn in their belly, showing unnecessary and unprovoked aggression etc. - before I ring their horns, and their previous authority gives them some respect from the other goats)
Anyway, I will see if I can get a sibling to take photos when I band these two, or even a video, and you are welcome to come over for a vacation and get a hands-on demo!  (I love talking about and handling goats all day  )

It does sound like Gordy was banded too high unfortunately, to have gotten strong scurs.  There are some other methods, like the wire Dave mentioned. We have used that for goats with very sensitive scurs which we couldnâ€™t get rings on, or to get previously ringed scurs off without the large flow of blood from non-ringed scurs â€" as Dave also mentioned, you can â€˜disbudâ€™ them with the hot iron otherwise, but I prefer to band scurs before using the wire if possible. Also, you can clip of the end of the scurs until you get down to the blood (looks similar to in hooves) and then burn the outside of the scurs. For scurs, burning really is the best way since it destroys the horn cells and stops regrowth, however,


Dave said:


> this is all nice and easy to type on the computer but a totally different story when actually doing it


It might be best to find a vet or experienced breeder who is willing to give you a hand or do it for you. I would suggest either: giving Gordy a painkiller (there are many safe to use for goats, whoever you find to help you can probably give you a better idea), then using the wire (the stuff over here is â€˜embryoctonic wireâ€™ and used for cutting up baby animals who are too big to be born  ) to remove his scurs, and lastly burning the sites with a disbudder/disbudding iron to ensure no re-growth , or, giving him a painkiller and banding his scurs (at least a few hours, to be effective, but preferably a day or two) before removing them, to reduce the blood flow. Either way, a pain-killer sounds like it would be really good for him, especially with the experiences he has had previously and with the way things have turned out for you. There are some injectable ones, and others (such as human pain-killers) are to be taken orally.

All the best with your goaties, and Iâ€™m really sorry for the bad experiences you have had with poor Gordy.  I wish you all lots of safe adventures and fun. 
Cazz


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