# Which LGD do you have? Anyone with Border Collies?



## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

I am wanting to keep my eyes open for a herd dog between spring and fall.
Sometimes I can find pups for a good price or for cheap. Some herd dogs are already trained.

I am most interested in Border Collies. Do any of you guys have them?
They are said to be the most trainable and most intelligent herd dog.
They are a lot smaller than other dogs such as the A Shepherd and GP...which it is cheaper to feed a smaller dog.

They say they are good with family and sometimes young children. They need at least 1-2 hrs a day to exercise. Most of which is just letting them run in the field and a little ball time or Frisbee.
I don't see much about people using them for goats. It is mostly sheep and cattle but they say any livestock.

If not a Border Collie I may go with a Maremma sheepdog. 3rd choice maybe a GP.
What are your thoughts on LGD breeds?


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## Maggie (Nov 5, 2010)

Border Collies aren't really LGD, they are herding dogs. They would be great if you are looking for one to work your herd, but would not leave one with the herd.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

Oh, ok.
Thanks for the info..makes sense. That must be why I never heard of them with goats.
Goats don't really need to be "worked" ,imo. They usually come in and everything on their own.
I am just wanting protection. Next Q. Anyone know who would win GP vs. Maremma,as far as being friendly and keeping the herd safe? I heard the the GP's chewing horns on more than one occasion. Do the GP's need more training than other dogs?
I am not a trainer at all but could work with a dog that is already trained or one that has the basics down.


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## apachedowns (Mar 14, 2010)

I have a GP and Anatolian mix that is 4yrs old and awsome at his job. Also just got a purebred Turkish Kangal a few months ago and she is simply amazing. I am in love with this breed as I think they are the smartest and easiest LGD's to raise ...she is just a pure natural at her job and ignores all the animals that live here, even at 7 mths old, that includes the free range ducks and chickens, horses, goats, & show rabbits. SHe is still going through her training but I never worked with an easier breed that is a natural at this. She is suppose to top out at around 130 lbs and she is already over 70 lbs now ! She is very submissive to the people who live here, NEVER jumps up on you (thank god cause she is huge !), and very alert to everything going on. But they are very standoffish to strangers and won't let anyone on the property if I am not here...certainly not the friendly type on her own turf...but when we go to the vet she is totally opposite and thinks everyone came to see her...LOL She is awesome.


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## ItchingDuck (Jan 21, 2012)

I have an Australian shepherd and a border collie. My aussie is obnoxious, but I didn't raise him. He was mistreated in the past so......
My border collie is Da Bomb! I've never loved anything like him nor seen brains like his. I never knew how great they were WHEN RAISED PROPERLY. Very important. I've seen some psycho mean ones who weren't socialized enough. 
He is purebred, no papers though. I paid $200 for the best dog ever. I do think they need neutering though, imo, as it curbs dominance and they concentrate better on learning. Just my opinion

ETA- ya, borders aren't for more than herding though. But mine does protect every critter here. He's odd. No one messes with his animals....even the cats. Unfortunately he wouldn't be much use against even a coyote no matter how he tries. I'd look for something else for an LGD.


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## ItchingDuck (Jan 21, 2012)

I really have to read things better....I see the comment that small dogs are cheaper to feed. 
Nope.
My border collie is bone thin at 38lbs. He need to put weight on. I buy Wellness Core for all my dogs. I have a 90lb golden, 80lb yellow lab, 45lb aussie, and my 38lb border collie. 
My golden eats 2cup of food. Lab gets 3 cups, aussie also 3cups, border collie gets 4 cups a day! He's still bone thin from working too hard. I am gonna up him to 5 cups a day and put him on Evo which is real high protein.


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## Iwantgoats (Oct 3, 2008)

I have an Australian Shepard...he's alittle pain in the butt, lol.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I have the Anatolian... :greengrin: 

I also have a Border collie...but.. I do not let him stay unattended with the goats....when I need him to work ...he works for me....My border collie ..loves to work them.....and if I am not there to supervise that instinct will kick it....and he will start working... border collies are herding dogs.. not guarding..... :thumb:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I love border collies...but they are not for guarding. They are wonderful herders though.

If I were to get another LGD, i'd go with a pyrenees. But you really need to find a reputable breeder who is raising them specifically to work. That goes for any breed. A LGD is a ton of work so do all your research beforehand and be well prepared. :thumb:


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## jaycee (Aug 3, 2011)

I also have a border collie as well as a blue heeler mix... both rescue dogs. They are wonderful animals very social and energetic but they wouldnt be worth a damn for guarding livestock. Big difference between herding dogs and LGDs. Herding dogs are bred to assist humans in working their animals whereas LGDs are bred to watch over them in the absence of humans.

The way it was explained to me was... 'if you want your goats herded in and out of the barn 30 times a day then let a herd dog watch over them'. Hehe not a good thing probably.

Actually my dogs are very good with the goats and they have access to the pasture when the goats are out and the dogs dont bother them, but I dont let the dogs into the goat pens in and around the barn and they dont spend the night out there.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I think Jesse has figured out a Boarder Collie is not what he's looking for, but I just wanted to share my Boarder Collie experience. I have had one for 10 years. I did a horrible job of training him. I was raised with bird dogs my whole life and the BC is nothing like a bird dog. I never was successful in turning the BC into a useful working dog. I do blame myself. This dog's chasing and stalking instinct is very strong. I never could turn the instinct towards good and away from evil. My attempts to curtail his unwanted chasing only made him timid around me. Now he has a guilty conscience about his strongest instinct. He has a good life and lives in the house. My wife likes him. I don't.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I have Anatolians and love them!


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## jaycee (Aug 3, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> This dog's chasing and stalking instinct is very strong. I never could turn the instinct towards good and away from evil.


I have had alot of success training my dogs not to chase the goats by supervising them closely and chastising them immediately, but Im a teacher so I have the summers off and without that luxury I doubt I'd had the time. I still dont "trust" them out with them unsupervised because the goats do run around and play and dogs and goats play differently. Most dog games end in wrestling which is very dangerous for goats obviously and not how they choose to stop playing... they just run and stop, not run and tackle.

I had much less luck training the dogs with my ducks. Perhaps its because I never allowed them close supervised contact to train them at the proper times. The ducks were always in a dog proof pen. Well before I realized how to clip their wings I had one campbell duck who kept flying out into the pasture. I found her out of her pen 4 or 5 days in a row and then the last time, the dogs ate her... nothing left but 2 wings and bunch of feathers


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## 2wFarm (Jul 16, 2012)

*reply: Maremma vs. Border Collie as LGD?*



jesse-goats said:


> I am most interested in Border Collies. Do any of you guys have them?
> They are said to be the most trainable and most intelligent herd dog....
> 
> If not a Border Collie I may go with a Maremma sheepdog. 3rd choice maybe a GP.
> What are your thoughts on LGD breeds?


J-G...you can have the best of both worlds with BC x Maremma.

We have them and use them and they are awesome.

We have a Maremma x Border Collie male and also have been blessed to see the excellence of his 75% Maremma pups.

Couldn't ask for a better dog at both protecting (they are fiercer than the Maremma when it comes to stopping bad people!) And they are lightning quick...brave...and able to obey your every voice or hand command. Easy care coat. Excellent with children. So easy to train. LOVE LOVE this cross!

You don't "train" an LGD. Maremmas are born knowing what to do--you just correct their course a little. And they do their jobs...very independently.

If you need a dog that will protect AND do some obedience for you (ie push goats)...it's the 50% to 75% Maremma w/ some Border Collie.

Do not be deterred by naysayers of a Maremma x Border Collie. Before you believe them...ask them if they've owned one.... Some people will tell you this is a bad cross...and that comes from people who don't know these dogs at all. The BC X Maremma makes it more than a herd/flock guardian. It makes the dog a useable LGD. Dual-purpose so to speak. Ask someone who owns them if it's a good cross. I wouldn't sell mine for a million dollars. And the folks who bought our pups...wouldn't sell theirs for a million dollars either. FABULOUS cross!!!! SO easy to teach commands to. And our pups start guarding at 2-3 wks right there in their whelping box (that's the 75% working bred Maremma in them).

We do breed 100% Maremmas too. They are fabulous at being an LGD. Independent, alert, protective, wise, steadfast, loyal, excellent with stock and children. Our experience is they are everything an LGD is supposed to be.

And I want to note this: All pups are individuals just like children are individuals. Each is unique and has natural strengths and weaknesses just like people. The key to the "best" dog for you...is to find the right match of a pup's natural talents to what you need. I could no more change _who _my child naturally is, than I would change a pup from _who _he naturally is.

Hope this was helpful.

Visit our websites:
*For the dogs click here*
*For the farm click here.*


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## Goober (Aug 21, 2009)

I have 2 Pyr/Anatolians, and 1 Pyr. Love them most of the time, but hate it when the Pyr side decide the fence is simply an obstacle to overcome. Of course, the two mixes are 1 1/2 years old and the pure is 7 months, so I cut them a little slack. But the mix who acts like the Anatolian side - she NEVER exits her fence, not even to follow her sister. She also was 100% reliable with week old kids at 1 year old. She has a very mature mind. Next dog for me will be an Anatolian.


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## WhartonFarms (Sep 12, 2012)

*Aussie*



Iwantgoats said:


> I have an Australian Shepard...he's alittle pain in the butt, lol.


I hear That and raise you a Butt!:ROFL:
I have an Aussie and she is well trained but when she is not working she's driving me CRAZEEYYY!! LOL whine whine whine while staring me down...
but I love my Kieli


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

2wFarm said:


> J-G...you can have the best of both worlds with BC x Maremma.
> 
> We have them and use them and they are awesome.
> 
> ...


This is very interesting. So what is the overall goal of your breeding program and what made you select these two breeds to cross for livestock guarding? How many adult crosses/mixes have you raised and owned that are working as full time LGDs? I just would never think of using this cross as an LGD or recommend an LGD that has a herding breed in it. I mean, the border collie is basically bred to do the opposite of what a purebred LGD would do so how do they mix well together? I'm skeptical, but open minded and would love to hear more about them.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

I have a rough collie and although she isnt much defence against the cougars, she DOES keep coyotes out. She's a great dog, and on the farm, we'll never have another breed.


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## utahgal (Sep 16, 2012)

I also have a full border collie. I also know absolutely nothing about training them to herd. We have sheep and work her with those, I just try to direct and won't let her just chase them. She thinks the kid goats are something to play with, and either runs or leaves the adults alone. We have coyotes out here and she would be no match for them in a pack. She sleeps in my bed and during lambing and kidding will cuddle with a runt or one that isn't doing as well as it should. She is mamma pro tem, they have the cleanest butts in the state and she cleans its face after bottle feeding. But as a guard dog, I have my doubts. Then again never had to put it to the test.


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## 2wFarm (Jul 16, 2012)

KW Farms said:


> This is very interesting. So what is the overall goal of your breeding program and what made you select these two breeds to cross for livestock guarding? How many adult crosses/mixes have you raised and owned that are working as full time LGDs? I just would never think of using this cross as an LGD or recommend an LGD that has a herding breed in it. I mean, the border collie is basically bred to do the opposite of what a purebred LGD would do so how do they mix well together? I'm skeptical, but open minded and would love to hear more about them.


All very good Qs: And I am pleased that you asked. That's so refreshing instead of the usual rude phone calls, or online flamings just for mentioning Border Collie and LGD in the same sentence.

So what is the overall goal of your breeding program?  We aren't "breeders" or a kennel per se. Just a family farmette, with great dogs. We have a 100% Maremma litter only when several families have asked for a pup in advance of that coupling. If I were to define our "goal" it's to provide wonderful working dogs that fit perfectly with the family farm that takes them. Our goal I guess is JOY...for the dogs, for the families and for us.

What made you select these two breeds to cross for livestock guarding? We didn't select the two breeds to cross. It was already done. We acquired an LGD who was born a BCxMaremma that was bred by someone else. He was/is so fabulous, that we decided to try him in a litter to see if he passed on his excellent talents. And he did. Those pups were *not *bred to be specifically just LGD. (We have 100% Maremmas bred to be just LGD.) His pups are specifically bred to be a dual-purpose farmette dog....with skills to be an LGD as well as child's babysitter, watchdog, and helper with penning up livestock, etc. Perfect for small farms needing a dog they can use for everything...and trust not to eat their chickens or bite their kids.

How many adult crosses/mixes have you raised and owned that are working as full time LGDs? None of them were bred to be fulltime LGD. Again, we breed 100% Maremmas for that job. None of them are currently used as fulltime LGD. They are used as all around ranch/farm dogs who watch over chickens, goats, children, etc. Guarding the house and property as well. I have raised none to adults. I am familiar with 4 of the adults and lost contact with the remainder of the pups. Last I heard they were very happy with them. ALL families are very pleased.

NOTE: I want to add....we have seen in the 2 litters that 1/4th of each litter are behaving like 97% Maremma/3% color  The rest of the pups are just like their Dad in smarts, obedience, willingness, bravery, dedication and watchfulness. The pups who behave as 97% Maremma we are careful to place as working LGD since they will likely be very Maremma-like in their independence, bravery and patience. A few of the females have had their Maremma mom's alpha attitude and exuberance for life.

I just would never think of using this cross as an LGD or recommend an LGD that has a herding breed in it. I mean, the border collie is basically bred to do the opposite of what a purebred LGD would do so how do they mix well together? I'm skeptical, 
I remember 30 years ago, when "people" told me an Appaloosa couldn't do dressage. Somebody forgot to tell that to my mare. I showed her anyway, even when judges didn't want to look up and watch. Now you can find Grand-prix level dressage Appaloosas (albeit they have been "crossed" to make them more useable in that.) Same principle with our LGD-X (more useable).

Similarly, when I was little I was told a girl couldn't be a jockey. Tell that to Robyn Smith-Astair and all the others who are now female jockeys. I guess no one told me that a BC-X couldn't be an LGD.

I have never owned a purebred Border Collie. I did have a Groenendale-X that was excellent with all small animals both wild and domestic (and I was told that was a contradiction of his "breed standard").

I have a working strategy with my animals: Choose them according to their talents, not their breeding. And avoid stereotypes. People can be judged right off, by their color or stature--- and we'll never know their true talents. Is that not so with animals breeds? Stereotypes?

If I had picked up my BC-x-Mar LGD at a shelter (and did not know his lineage)...and guessed by his coloring & talent he was MaremmaxAnatolian (not knowing he was 50% BC).... what if I then chose to breed him to see if he passed off his talents (and he did)....would I be having this conversation so often with people? Probably not. It's always the mention of the 25% Border Collie that creates tension. I've even had people insult me and hang up....  Baffles me. I wish they would look at the great dogs...not the names.

Well, that was a LOT of info. I'm stepping down now
I came back to add/edit a few times and lost my internet connection. had to come back again. i think I might have written something very wise...however it's lost now and I forgot


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

2wFarm.... very well put :hug:

It's most often times very hard to place the right "emotion" into typed words, your explanation is well versed with no "attitude" :thumbup:


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

My aunt had two Maremma, Anatolian, Great Pyrenees mixes. Best dogs I have ever met in my life. They guard the goats religiously and love people but also are smart enough to know when someone doesn't belong. They run loose on a few hundred acres around the goats and make daily rounds marking and maintaining their property. Ever since she got the dogs there has been zero losses from coyotes and the dogs have also ran off a few people trying to steal goats. Not only do they chase off the threats but sometimes they go as far as killing them. Yet they are super gentle with the goats and I have never seen the dogs get aggressive with them. Even when a particularly mean goat corners them. Not to mention they are cute.


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## 2wFarm (Jul 16, 2012)

liz said:


> 2wFarm.... very well put :hug:
> 
> It's most often times very hard to place the right "emotion" into typed words, your explanation is well versed with no "attitude" :thumbup:


oh I am soooo relieved...thought someone might take me wrong and throw tomatoes at me.:thankU:


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## Shellshocker66 (Mar 19, 2012)

I don't know if this counts, but he barks when the neighbor dogs who actually protect my goats bark? Otherwise he is a good rolling toy for the goats every time he has managed to get himself wiggled under the fencing to go play with the "big funny looking dogs".onder:


I've been trying to located a "real" LGD.. Had my name in for quite awhile for a Akbash rescue that had a brother sister team who were already working dogs but the owner thought they barked too much. They had dispatched several coyote's, female was the dominant and so they wanted to separate them. That was fine as I wanted the male. But for every email I send it's awhile before I hear back and same story each time. "They just started testing at a farm in Oregon with a foster".

Aww just noticed the one picture my poor old herding dog was in it.. She passed away last year and would of loved working with the goats!


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## 2wFarm (Jul 16, 2012)

Shellshocker66 said:


> I don't know if this counts, but he barks when the neighbor dogs who actually protect my goats bark? Otherwise he is a good rolling toy for the goats every time he has managed to get himself wiggled under the fencing


EXCELLENT guardian skills...killed that toilet paper good...and rolled in it for a trophy.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Keep an eye out on Craigslist too. You could find some really good LGD's there if you are careful. There have been a few farms in my area that had to get rid of their livestock and then had to get rid of the working LGD.


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## Shellshocker66 (Mar 19, 2012)

2wFarm said:


> EXCELLENT guardian skills...killed that toilet paper good...and rolled in it for a trophy.


LOL! Yep he tore that predator toilet paper roll up! Poor little guy means well (if well means stealing everything he can and hiding it or destroying it).. But he does help with the message passing of the next door dogs, they are right against goat pasture and really watch over them, he hears them barking and barks right in my ear at night (quick wake up)...

Unfortunately it's always the same pair of foxes teasing the dogs next door and they avoid the goat pasture... But they tell me something is not suppose to be there and that is good!

I watch craigslist like a hawk for an LGD, I've been offered a couple of puppies back in spring but was hoping for an adult with experience. Unfortunately the rescue kinda held me back as they told me I was the perfect home, and that the fact I sent pictures of the property and animals made me top contender for this male Akbash... Well I could of had a puppy on his way to training by now and probably not relying on the someone else s dogs and my undercover watch dog!


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