# Does this look like copper deficiency?



## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I'm a little worried about my goats lately. I've been trying to get to the vet to get some copper boluses, but we've been too busy this week. I just got all our goats checked (fecals), and they do not have worms at all. they did have cocci. I finished giving them the treatment for that about a week ago, I think. 
Most of them still have really pale eyelids and gums. My Nigerian doe, Cinderella, has VERY pale lids still, and today I noticed that her hair is thinning a lot on her nose, and (yikes!) she's got a couple of bald spots on her neck and chest that were NOT there a couple of days ago. I go out and pet her and talk to her for while almost every day, but I did not go out yesterday, so it surprised me that the hair loss was so pronounced today.
And the Alpines have rough coats that seem a little thin to me. The black and white one has very rusty hair on the black parts of her.


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## DonnaBelle66 (Mar 4, 2013)

Your goats do need something. LOL. I'd give them copper bolus, you can order the goat size from Jeffers. I'd also get a bag of Calf Manna and a bag of BOSS and mix them together and give them a cup of that twice a day. Are you giving them good hay and loose minerals and about 2 cups of good goat grain (l6% protein) a day.

DonnaBelle


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Yes, they have minerals and baking soda free choice, and all the hay they want. We actually just gradually got them off of grain, and are just feeding alfalfa right now. But they looked like this before that. We were trying to avoid grain with GMO corn in it, but now I'm thinking that we should feed it to them anyway, of alfalfa is not enough. We can't afford to get organic grain, though it is sold near here.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Btw, sorry the black goat is Cinderella, and the other two are the Alpines. I tried to get one of C's eyelid, but it's not very good. She doesn't like me to mess with her eyes, and I was holding the camera with the other hand.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

i'd say bolus. they all look like they need something. i have a mostly white doe that will be getting bolused, and she'll likely get darker after. my black one is WAY rustier than your cinderella. copper bolus coming our way soon! 

either add the BOSS to their feed, or flax or oil to help with the dryness. i do BOSS with mine, but my black doe probably needs more...she's got really dry goat, but again, she's the one who's super rusty.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thanks, nchen! It sort of makes me feel better that yours are having the same prob. , if that makes sense.  yes, I will get the copper tomorrow, if I have to walk to the vet! (Just kidding) 
I felt bad for them tonight; I gave them all some molasses with other goodies in it (vinegar, honey, salt, soda, cinnamon) , and they GOBBLED it up! I mean, they could not get enough! I suppose it'll help; I'm going to give them some every day for a while, poor babies. I was giving it while I was giving the corid, but I stopped once I was done. I think they seem to want it more now.
I'll see about getting BOSS too.
( I would like your post, but I'm now using TGS app, and I can't  )


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I've heard that corrid is a thiamine inhibitor, you may want to pick up some vitamin B complex


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Great advice.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Okay, I've got the boluses! Now I just need to figure out the right amount for each goat.I'm pretty sure I'm just going to give all of them a dose, but I was wondering what y'all think, because the vet was worried about giving them too much. I almost certain they all need it, especially since our water is SO high in sulphur. (which he said causes copper def.)
I think he was mostly comparing them to sheep, because he kept saying how you have to be really careful giving copper to goats, since they are so sensitive to it. (We learned today that they have all of three herds of goats they treat-all meat goats)
I'm pretty sure he went and looked up how much copper to give sheep/ goats, and then told us the amount for sheep, which he said was- well, here I'll just copy what he wrote for me; I don't quite understand it: 
Maximum Copper Supplement
Sheep: 25 ppm/day
Ppm=Mg/Kg
I can look up on this forum how much to give goats, but if anybody has a quick answer, that would help. 
I intend to weigh it out and mix it with mashed banana or molasses and feed it to them that way.
Sorry to write so much!


> I've heard that corrid is a thiamine inhibitor, you may want to pick up some vitamin B complex


We have some, but I'm not quite ready to give shots, and my dad _really_ hates too; do you think that's absolutely necessary? Or can I just give the copper and then continue to give molasses every day?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

I read bolus is 1 gram per 22 lbs. most adult goat boluses are 4g, so for 88lb goat. sheep are super sensitive to copper, and can get enough of it from forage. and, i read on another post that they bolus their sheep, and they're fine.

i'm not sure about the thiamine.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I just got finished reading the whole thread "vet said copper wasn't good"- very good reading, but scared me a little. I don't want to kill my goats! Can I still give the copper rods in a banana? And I was going to give molasses for a while, because they are anemic, some more than others, but I read that iron binds copper, preventing it from absorbing, and I know molasses has tons of iron, so should I stop giving it?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

i plan to open the capsules and put them in mashed banana, and squirt down their throat. i don't have a bolus gun. I've seen on another website they put it in cookies that their goats inhale. whatever you do you have to make sure they dont' chew them.

if you're really scared of od-ing your goats, then you can always give a smaller dose and see if it works. i know mine are really deficient, so i'm giving full dose. see how rusty my girl is? i'm curious to see what my black goat will look like when she's actually black! lol

oh, and if it makes you feel better, Tennesee Meat Goats say you can give up to 1200 ppm of copper to goats. the higher range for copper def areas. http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/copperdeficiency.html


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thanks, nchen! I think I'll give a little less than a full dose, it'll make me fell better.Your goat is soo cute!  What's her name? She's adorable! I think you said part Togg? One of French Alpines is 1/8 Togg-our best milker, so cute. I'll post pic for you to see.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

Thanks Sarah! I have no clue what she is. lol. someone said alpine/Nubian mix. i have another one that looks more togg/Nubian mix.

and her name is Buttercup. 

i'd love to see pics of your goats. i stalk this forum a lot for info, but really...it's for pictures! lol


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## Xuxasmamma (Apr 14, 2013)

I think your vet is incorrect. I think that he is definitely thinking of sheep. ALthough not too long ago most people thought goats were sensitive to copper too. Goats need copper. I would do the bolus and I just put it in a marshmallow. I have read conflicting threads as to the whether it is bad that the goats 'chew' the rods. Check Goathikers threads I think he was the one who told me about the marshmallow. My very red goat darkened up within 8 weeks of being bolused and I gave her a shot of multimin-which is like a copper shot.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

You're goats need to some more food, too. I'd get them back on the grain to get a few more pounds on them. Copper, some grain along with their alfalfa, maybe a little bit of beet pulp, too. The first one doesn't look bad, but the more tan ones that have shaggy coats could use a few more pounds


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

Scottyhorse said:


> You're goats need to some more food, too.


is that for me??


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

nchen7 said:


> is that for me??


Your goat you showed on here doesn't look half bad. Dairy goats always look a little bony. I like them to have a few extra pounds, but still dairy looking.


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## OutdoorDreamer (Mar 29, 2012)

Marking this thread so I can read the updates, I just ordered some copper bolus' for my goats. My black does have the rusty tint to them. They have had their BoSe shot this year, I have heard that can help with their coloring as well. Does anyone know if that's true?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

I know she's skinny!! I've been trying to put weight on her, but to no avail!! one good thing is she's not overly bony. in person you can barely see ribs or spine. and when you run your hands on her, you can feel a layer of muscle over those bones. 

right now she's getting a little over 2lbs of oats and alfalfa per day, top dressed with BOSS and split peas. i'm thinking of adding some coconut to her diet to get some fat in her. goats can eat coconut, can they? should I give her more oats?

NDlover, sorry for hijacking your thread!


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Beet pulp and calf manna are good, too. I would free feed hay. Not sure about the coconut. 16% protein sweet feed would be better than oats also. But I know you're in Barbados so you will have to see what you can get.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

nchen7 said:


> NDlover, sorry for hijacking your thread!


I don't mind! I do that all the time!



Scottyhorse said:


> You're goats need to some more food, too. I'd get them back on the grain to get a few more pounds on them. Copper, some grain along with their alfalfa, maybe a little bit of beet pulp, too. The first one doesn't look bad, but the more tan ones that have shaggy coats could use a few more pounds


I know they're a bit thin right now; it's only been maybe a week since we took them off grain. It was a bit of an experiment, but I think they definately need more nutrition than they're getting. I was thinking of maybe just doing BOSS? Along with the alfalfa, of course. And we have tons of beets growing right now; we give them some occasionally, but we are going to begin giving it every day. What do you think of that diet? BOSS, alfalfa and beets, along with hay, minerals, salt, soda and water free choice of course. Would that be sufficient?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

i give my girls beet pulp from juicing. they LOVE it.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

It would be a good start. Adjust as needed


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yes...1 gram per 22 # or 1 cc per 60#...it comes out about the same..you goats do look like they need it so I would not worry about over dosing...you might give them a trim and be suprised on whats under that thicker hair...I had some that looked very pooruntil I shaved them..wow..huge difference..


oops...didnt see the 3rd page hehe...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Here's a quick pic I got online of the minerals were feeding. Sorry you can't see the numbers.( we have a bag, but the girls got into the tub it's stored in once and tore the bag up, can't see a thing, lol) i was wondering if anyone here knows if this is a good brand or not.
The vet suggested getting a mineral mix with more copper in it in the future. Seems like a good idea, what do y'all think?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Oh, BTW! I did get the copper into the worst ones today. Aka, the three alpine and Cinderella, yay! I weighed it out and mixed it with mashed banana; they love it. Slurped it straight down, no chewing. It was super hot, so I was waiting for it to cool down before I do the kids and bucks. They don't seem to be as badly off, either.i might wait till tomorrow, got stuff to do tonight.
Does anyone know where's the cheapest place to get BOSS?


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Buy in bulk from TSC


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

NDlover said:


> Oh, BTW! I did get the copper into the worst ones today. Aka, the three alpine and Cinderella, yay! I weighed it out and mixed it with mashed banana; they love it. Slurped it straight down, no chewing. It was super hot, so I was waiting for it to cool down before I do the kids and bucks. They don't seem to be as badly off, either.i might wait till tomorrow, got stuff to do tonight.
> Does anyone know where's the cheapest place to get BOSS?


yay!!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

nchen7 said:


> Thanks Sarah! I have no clue what she is. lol. someone said alpine/Nubian mix. i have another one that looks more togg/Nubian mix.
> 
> and her name is Buttercup.
> 
> i'd love to see pics of your goats. i stalk this forum a lot for info, but really...it's for pictures! lol


Buttercup! Perfect.  I'll do pics of mine when they're looking better, hopefully. They're all bit scraggly right now; except the doelings -ill try to do them tomorrow.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

yea...i plan to do a before and after as well. i may even shave her down so i can really tell!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Scottyhorse said:


> Buy in bulk from TSC


Did you mean, buy this kind in bulk, or a different one from TSC?

Oh, and I meant to ask again, does any body know if I can keep giving them molasses?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Molasses is like candy...a little is ok..too much is not : )


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## MissyParkerton (Nov 24, 2012)

If the goats are having copper deficiency issues then I would not give them molasses as the iron may bind up the copper. Copper deficiency will cause anemia. If you have high sulfur content in your water you may need to bolus more often than every 6 months, which is the norm. Also, make sure your loose mineral has plenty of copper in it. The copper bolus is a very slow release form of copper and it is very difficult to overdose. It will be up to 8 weeks before you see marked improvement after the bolus. Good luck!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

MissyParkerton said:


> If the goats are having copper deficiency issues then I would not give them molasses as the iron may bind up the copper. Copper deficiency will cause anemia. If you have high sulfur content in your water you may need to bolus more often than every 6 months, which is the norm. Also, make sure your loose mineral has plenty of copper in it. The copper bolus is a very slow release form of copper and it is very difficult to overdose. It will be up to 8 weeks before you see marked improvement after the bolus. Good luck!


I was worried about the molasses binding the copper, that's why I asked, thanks.

Yes, our water is extremely high in sulphur, ugh. I will try to find out how much copper is in the minerals we are using. How much would you recommend ?


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## MissyParkerton (Nov 24, 2012)

The highest recommendation that I have read/seen is 1800-2000 ppm. My current mineral is 1350. As soon as this bag is finished I am going to switch to one with higher copper. And I will still continue to bolus every 6 months. It seems like many vets, including my own, don't have a clue as to the copper requirements of goats. I don't even bother to talk to my vet about it anymore. Hopefully in the near future there will be more solid, conclusive research done that will help educate them. In the meantime, forums like this one and picking the brains of other goat owners in your area is the best way to get ideas on how to keep your goats happy and healthy!


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

What brand has 1800-2000 ppm? I am using manna pro at about 1350. I have a very rusty black whether, and my wgite doe looks like ahe used her tail to go fishing...and caught something!


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

MissyParkerton said:


> The highest recommendation that I have read/seen is 1800-2000 ppm. My current mineral is 1350. As soon as this bag is finished I am going to switch to one with higher copper. And I will still continue to bolus every 6 months. It seems like many vets, including my own, don't have a clue as to the copper requirements of goats. I don't even bother to talk to my vet about it anymore. Hopefully in the near future there will be more solid, conclusive research done that will help educate them. In the meantime, forums like this one and picking the brains of other goat owners in your area is the best way to get ideas on how to keep your goats happy and healthy!


Where are you located?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I'm wondering if there's anything short term I can give my girls for anemia while I'm waiting to see results from the copper.All of them have pretty pale eyelids, especially Cinderella. She also seems to have slightly runny eyes lately. Other than that, and her bit of hair loss on here neck and chest, she seem totally normal.
I've been trying not to freak out about how pale her lids are, thinking at first it was cocci., then copper, but they're just so pale, I think she's very anemic. Is there anything other than molasses I can give her?


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## MissyParkerton (Nov 24, 2012)

I'm in Maine. I've been learning all this stuff as I go. Hoegger Goat Supply sells a goat mineral that has 1800 ppm copper, that's the one I have been looking at and thinking about switching to. Because I only have 2 goats right now I don't mind having to mail order it. Some cattle minerals have up to 2000ppm copper. If your goats have anemia due to copper deficiency I'm not sure adding iron will help, it's really the copper they need to correct it. This whole mineral thing can be very confusing--each mineral is needed in certain ratios to other minerals for them all to work/support a goat's health. We could drive ourselves crazy trying to get it all just right! I don't know a lot about sulfur, but I wonder if it also blocks the absorption of other minerals besides copper? You might want to think about having a blood test done on your goats for a mineral screening. Then you could see for sure what they are deficient in. I think you have already taken some very good steps in trying to figure all this out. Mineral imbalances do take time to correct. It's hard when you don't get instant results, especially when your babies' health is at stake!!

Have you been to this link?

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/vitaminmineral06.html

And here's another that has mineral maps for each state broken down county by county. You can look up copper levels in your area.

http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/home.htm

This link has more info about micro and macro nutrients....

http://www.luresext.edu/goats/library/field/hart03-2.pdf

Hope these help.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thank you so much for all that. :thankU:I have looked at Hoegger's minerals before and I wanted to get them, but they seemed a bit on the expensive side. I know all their products are good quality though; at least I've been very happy with everything I've gotten from them so far, and I think it would be a good investment.
I have looked at Tennesseemeatgoats before a little, but I will definitely read that article, as well as the others, thank you.
I hadn't thought of trying to find the copper levels of our area online, that will help a lot. We were going to do a soil test, and I'd like to test our hay and water as well, though it is definately high in sulphur. It smells like rotten eggs-we have to filter our well water to drink it.
I would not be at all surprised if it blocks the absorption of other minerals as well. I wouldn't be surprised if WE need some supplements, lol!
And I would very much like to test the goats for deficiencies. Would that be sent to WADDL? Do you think they could test for CAE and CL at the same time?
And it absolutely is hard to wait for results, lol! Glad you understand.


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## emmapal (Oct 4, 2012)

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...eral-in-your-body-are-you-getting-enough.aspx

Humans need a lot of sulfur so dont worry about getting too much in a good sulfur area. I guess just not goats ;p


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## MissyParkerton (Nov 24, 2012)

I'm not sure where the mineral blood levels are tested, it prob depends on where you are and where the nearest lab is that does it. You could have your vet draw blood for CL and CAE testing at the same time. Not sure those tests and the mineral screening would be done in the same place...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I can't see any real improvement yet, of course, but I think the copper must be working, because Ella's bare patches have not gotten any worse, and I think some hair may be beginning to grow back. I'm so impatient to see results! 

I did notice that most of them have somewhat clumpy droppings since the copper treatment; is that okay?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

copper bolus should not cause ploppy poop. Wet graze from morning dew, change in feed/minerals, worm load...ect..as long as it correct its self in a few days time and does not get worse than granades, I wouldnt worry about it just yet  
Nice thread on minerals  many will buy a prepackaged bag of mineral and call it done but it takes time to find the one that makes the difference in your goats, each areas needs are different..balance is hard...but with patients you can get it done. also when finding the right mineral...I was told to find dark mineral..not red...red usualy has too much iron..too much iron prevents the copper absorbtion...and let me say We bought some mineral made just for goats..opened the bag and GROSS...it smelled like a medicine cabinet ..the goats turned their nose to it...I showed it to my goat friend when she was down and she said too much iron lol...I dont beleive you have to spend the big money to get balance..you just need a bit of research to find the best fit...we have heavy sulfer here too..its nasty..lol


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

NDlover said:


> Thank you so much for all that. :thankU:I have looked at Hoegger's minerals before and I wanted to get them, but they seemed a bit on the expensive side. I know all their products are good quality though; at least I've been very happy with everything I've gotten from them so far, and I think it would be a good investment.
> I have looked at Tennesseemeatgoats before a little, but I will definitely read that article, as well as the others, thank you.
> I hadn't thought of trying to find the copper levels of our area online, that will help a lot. We were going to do a soil test, and I'd like to test our hay and water as well, though it is definately high in sulphur. It smells like rotten eggs-we have to filter our well water to drink it.
> I would not be at all surprised if it blocks the absorption of other minerals as well. I wouldn't be surprised if WE need some supplements, lol!
> ...


I've heard that testing your goats for example "copper deficiency" is unreliable since the blood levels may be normal but the liver may still be deficient.......that is where copper is stored. I was gonna do the same thing until I heard that so I figured I wouldn't waste my money if it wasn't accurate.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

I didn't know the red stuff is full of iron! the only all-purpose minerals I can get here is red! now i'm worried even though i bolused everyone last night that the iron in it won't let the copper work...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> I've heard that testing your goats for example "copper deficiency" is unreliable since the blood levels may be normal but the liver may still be deficient.......that is where copper is stored. I was gonna do the same thing until I heard that so I figured I wouldn't waste my money if it wasn't accurate.


This is true..only a liver biopsy is accurate  no thank you!!



> I didn't know the red stuff is full of iron! the only all-purpose minerals I can get here is red! now i'm worried even though i bolused everyone last night that the iron in it won't let the copper work...


sorry didnt mean to scare you : ) read your ingriediants..see where your iron levels are...I do know my goats gobble the darker mineral up and picked at the red..


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

NDlover said:


> Thank you so much for all that. :thankU:I have looked at Hoegger's minerals before and I wanted to get them, but they seemed a bit on the expensive side. I know all their products are good quality though; at least I've been very happy with everything I've gotten from them so far, and I think it would be a good investment.
> I have looked at Tennesseemeatgoats before a little, but I will definitely read that article, as well as the others, thank you.
> I hadn't thought of trying to find the copper levels of our area online, that will help a lot. We were going to do a soil test, and I'd like to test our hay and water as well, though it is definately high in sulphur. It smells like rotten eggs-we have to filter our well water to drink it.
> I would not be at all surprised if it blocks the absorption of other minerals as well. I wouldn't be surprised if WE need some supplements, lol!
> ...


This is the link to look up the levels in your area....
http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/home.htm

Hope this helps


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

happybleats said:


> sorry didnt mean to scare you : ) read your ingriediants..see where your iron levels are...I do know my goats gobble the darker mineral up and picked at the red..


i just looked it over...i didn't see any iron listed at all! but...doesn't mean it's not in there. labelling laws here are not as stringent as those elsewhere.....


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

hummm ... ?? look it up on line...perhaps they sell it in the states and label it different??....


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

happybleats said:


> hummm ... ?? look it up on line...perhaps they sell it in the states and label it different??....


i tried that already....it's called "bloomin' sheen". they package it at one of the feed places here. i feel like it's a mix they make b/c i haven't been able to find anything online about it...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> copper bolus should not cause ploppy poop. Wet graze from morning dew, change in feed/minerals, worm load...ect..as long as it correct its self in a few days time and does not get worse than granades, I wouldnt worry about it just yet
> Nice thread on minerals  many will buy a prepackaged bag of mineral and call it done but it takes time to find the one that makes the difference in your goats, each areas needs are different..balance is hard...but with patients you can get it done. also when finding the right mineral...I was told to find dark mineral..not red...red usualy has too much iron..too much iron prevents the copper absorbtion...and let me say We bought some mineral made just for goats..opened the bag and GROSS...it smelled like a medicine cabinet ..the goats turned their nose to it...I showed it to my goat friend when she was down and she said too much iron lol...I dont beleive you have to spend the big money to get balance..you just need a bit of research to find the best fit...we have heavy sulfer here too..its nasty..lol


Well, I haven't looked at the iron levels in ours, but it's very red, and I have noticed that the goats don't eat hardly any of it. Myabe that's my whole problem right there! I just assumed they either didn't need much, or that they were eating it when I wasn't looking.
We have a bag of goat minerals out in our barn that the man gave us for the Nubian buck we borrowed. We've never used it except for him, but it's a very light gray. I guess I could ask him what kind they are, but I don't really know how well they work.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

still said:


> I've heard that testing your goats for example "copper deficiency" is unreliable since the blood levels may be normal but the liver may still be deficient.......that is where copper is stored. I was gonna do the same thing until I heard that so I figured I wouldn't waste my money if it wasn't accurate.


I'd heard that as well, I guess I forgot in my eagerness to correct the problem. I guess we'll have to settle for testing the hay, water, soil...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

there is a cow mineral..onyx?? that is suppose o be good...Ineed to look at my notes but my firend gave me a suggestion of mineral she really likes..humm..Ill go find it..


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

My mineral is by chs payback feed 16:8- so the calcium/phos is a 2:1 ratio the copper is not less than 1750ppm. I agree about molasses binding. High iron in water will also contribute to blocking copper absorption. I did copper bolus last year (mainly 2 goats that came from the same breeder) but have not had to since then. I also feed Thorvin Kelp and that has made a huge difference.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

clearwtrbeach said:


> My mineral is by chs payback feed 16:8- so the calcium/phos is a 2:1 ratio the copper is not less than 1750ppm. I agree about molasses binding. High iron in water will also contribute to blocking copper absorption. I did copper bolus last year (mainly 2 goats that came from the same breeder) but have not had to since then. I also feed Thorvin Kelp and that has made a huge difference.


Where do you get the kelp? And I'd be interested in what you feed your goats besides that.

Oh, and I checked out minerals, and it says copper is not less than 1750 ppm as well. Do y'all think I need more than that or perhaps a better balanced mix?


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

I get my kelp locally, but many people use Azure foods but I think they are just west coast. I'd ask your feed store (unless is a box store like coastal they usually won't special order). The kelp I think for us was the biggest change. 
check you minerals also for a 2:1 calcium/phos. (doesn't apply to the copper issue but it's what's needed for those). I also feed alfalfa, since that is why my landlord grows (free choice since I have paddocks and not great browse). My dairy's I give dairy parlor 16, but i've added calf manna when the demand is really high. I also give BOSS (black sunflower seeds). I've also switched to herbal wormers this year. 
Garlic is also good for them (and us too  ). 
At the grocery store I found a little water test strip for $8. It checked ph, iron, nitrate/nitrite, and ph-chlorine and hardness. We are on spring water so I knew no chlorine,but was curious on the iron and copper. We came back right on the good levels on each. 
I think the 2 I had problems with her area is higher than us (i use to live up where she is) and the water was very high in iron.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Azure is in Texas as well..its finding a close drop off thats hard...closest for me is Fortworth...might be something you can look into up your way Sarah...they offer tons of intersting stuff...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thanks, clrwtrbeach, ill see if we can get some kelp around here.

Thank you too, Cathy, I'll see about Azure close by.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

I'm kind of spoiled, my feed store will special order. And, the main Azure office is only 15 minutes away and they drop about 5 min from here. If you go to the website it should give you the drop off locations. If they have a lot of people maybe a group could see about a closer drop that would still be in 'their loop'- just a thought.


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## MissyParkerton (Nov 24, 2012)

It's true that mineral screening blood tests aren't conclusive for copper levels, but they can give you an idea of the other minerals that may be out of balance which could be effecting the absorption of copper--or other minerals, like zinc, which also play a large role in skin and coat health.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I was going to ask today if anyone thinks my goats could be iodine deficient as well? I was reading one of the minerals charts, and it sounds like the symptoms are similar to copper def., and I _think_ it said giving iodized salt can help to correct the problem. I was giving them salt, but I looked at the bag and it is not iodized.


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## MissyParkerton (Nov 24, 2012)

You could also feed them kelp meal free choice, that way, in addition to its good iodine content, they will be getting many different micronutrients. My goats LOVE their kelp!


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

NDlover said:


> I was going to ask today if anyone thinks my goats could be iodine deficient as well? I was reading one of the minerals charts, and it sounds like the symptoms are similar to copper def., and I think it said giving iodized salt can help to correct the problem. I was giving them salt, but I looked at the bag and it is not iodized.


Ditto on MissyParkerton's suggestion. Something I've also heard is to "paint" the tail web with some iodine..if it disappears that day, they're deficient. Not sure if that's true but that's what I've heard. Kelp is very iodine rich though so if you get it they will quickly right their balance.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Im hoping well be able to make a trip to tractor supply today. I coudn't find if they carry kelp, but I was thinking of getting the Noble Goat medicated feed, at least for our bucks, but I was wondering if that is the best feed for our milking does? I couldn't find a protein % on it.
I'm also wanting to try the Manna Pro minerals.


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

NDlover said:


> Im hoping well be able to make a trip to tractor supply today. I coudn't find if they carry kelp, but I was thinking of getting the Noble Goat medicated feed, at least for our bucks, but I was wondering if that is the best feed for our milking does? I couldn't find a protein % on it.
> I'm also wanting to try the Manna Pro minerals.


I've never seen kelp at TSC but we live in a small town so they may just not carry it. I got mine from amazon, and Hoegger's carries kelp also. The Dumor goat pellets (not the sweet feed) has 16% protein, so that would be fine for milkers. I give my boys calf manna, alfalfa, and BOSS if they start looking thin, and Manna Pro minerals are a great choice. I personally don't like medicated feed because it only has enough meds to make things resistant unless you feed massive amounts, but that's just me.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Do you find that your feed bills are more than youd like? It seems to me that to feed your goats what they really need, you've got to spend a lot. I want to feed the right, but I think my bills are going to go up!


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## mistydaiz (Jan 28, 2011)

Sarah, how do you know your goats are free of worms? Did you fecal tests and fecal egg counts on all of them?
What dewormer do you use and how much?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

mistydaiz said:


> Sarah, how do you know your goats are free of worms? Did you fecal tests and fecal egg counts on all of them?
> What dewormer do you use and how much?


Yes, I think I said at the beginning of this thread that they do not have worms.
We recently got fecals done on all of our goats. I was worried because they're eyelids and gums were pale after I had dewormed them. 
They h ad no worms , but did have coccidia; we treated them for that, but I still didn't think they looked great, so I was thinking copper or some other mineral def. I'm fairly certain that copper def. is something that all of us south Texans have to deal with at some point or another.
We haven't ever given ours extra copper before, so I think it was high time we did.  
I'm also working on feeding what's right for my goats in this particular area and so forth, so I'm hoping to see improvement soon.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I've noticed that Cinderella's balld patches are growing hair again! So I guess the copper is working! Their coats are still really bad, but I guess it'll take a while for new hair to grow.I got Manna Pro minerals, and they are much more grey than the other kind I had-which i assume is good, from what someone said about red minerals being high in copper- and when I gave some to the bucks, they started eating it right away. But the girls didn't seem to care as much. They have barely touched it in three days. 
How much should they be getting every day? Do you think I should try a different kind? The Manna Pro minerals says the copper level is 1675 max. I don't know if that's enough.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Any thoughts anyone?


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## dezak91 (Feb 22, 2013)

I would be hesitant to give the full daily allotment of copper in the boluses if you also give free choice minerals (I thought I read where you were feeding that) plus Multimin twice a year. Your vet should be able to calculate for you based on everything you are feeding so you don't over dose your girls and boys. 

I have found that coming out of winter most everyone's coats look bad. With a good diet and a shave their new coats come back in much prettier so some of the color change in their hair may be due to the winter. 

Not saying of course that they couldn't be needing more copper, I'm just saying be careful to not over do it.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

NDlover said:


> I've noticed that Cinderella's balld patches are growing hair again! So I guess the copper is working! Their coats are still really bad, but I guess it'll take a while for new hair to grow.I got Manna Pro minerals, and they are much more grey than the other kind I had-which i assume is good, from what someone said about red minerals being high in copper- and when I gave some to the bucks, they started eating it right away. But the girls didn't seem to care as much. They have barely touched it in three days.
> How much should they be getting every day? Do you think I should try a different kind? The Manna Pro minerals says the copper level is 1675 max. I don't know if that's enough.


 -bump-


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

reconditioning from copper loss is a long road..not a quick fix: ) My girls dont like the redder minerals either..it is high in iron which from what I understand can keep copper from absorbing well?? Im switching back to my old brand which the girls gobbled up. I leave a pan out every day for them to eat...if there is any left the next day I dump it and give fresh..this red stuff is always left overs.. My old brand, which I can't thinkof the name, I never had to toss out.. 
if you havent already, give your girls a summer cut..might be suprised whats under there..last season was my first time shaving my girls..Hope, my oberhasli looked so bad..ragged..I gave her a cut and OMWord..she was shiny under all that winter bush..just beautiful..


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Well, most of mine have pretty short hair already, but I'll give it a try when I can.
I'm mostly worried because almost all my goats still have really pale lids and gums. I was hesitant to give molasses because the iron might bind the copper I just gave them.
And I was hoping they would like the new minerals, but they seem to be ignoring them as well. I just don't know what to do about that. I guess I can just keep trying different kinds till I get one they will eat.
I am pleased with our new buckling, Storm. When we got him his caot was completely dull and brownish- i think from worms and/or cocci. I treated him for both, and went ahead with the copper as well, and his coat is already getting shiny. I believe he's grown a bit too, so I'm happy about that.
The bucks actually did eat the minerals, but they dumped the container the firdt day, so I don't know how much they got. I gave them more today, and they were eating it when I left, so that's good, but why won't the girls eat it if the boys will?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

at least the boys will eat it so it wont waste...I have a friend in Houston who copper bolus every three months, I do it 2x a year then annually...with some results...my goats dont seem too bad so I didnt want to over do..but the last few years we have heavier worm load, so I might do it every three months...also I read some do copper as part of their wormer program..its a different level they give for wormer support..I need to read more up on that..lol...


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I use Cargill Right Now Onyx loose minerals made by Nutrena, I also use the Manna Po goat minerals, I offer both for my boys mainly because the MP has added ammonium chloride.
The Onyx is a dark grey and the MP a lighy grey... my well water is very iron rich as is the soil as PA is a heavily coal mined state.

I do copper bolus 2x a year but I also noticed that besides coats looking better, hooves do as well


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Soo, I shouldn't be worried about them being anemic?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we have to bolus several times a year; it would be great if it helps with worms too!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

as long as your fecals come back clean..just keep working on getting the copper right : )


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Well, I managed to give the three Alpines hair cuts tonight! They look SO much better! Their hair is thicker than I thought.  good advice, Cathy!

I didn't think I'd have time, but today's our "day off" and the rest of the week will be busy, so I wanted to get it done as soon as possible.
I've never done them that shot before; I usually just give a one-inch cut right before they freshen so they'll be cleaner for milking.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

They look much better.....


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes they do look better  Loosing the winter wool sure helps....good job


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## MissyParkerton (Nov 24, 2012)

If you want to make sure they are getting enough minerals mix the daily recommended amount into their grain using a tiny bit of corn syrup or agave nectar. I use about a tsp or less of agave nectar (I have it on hand because my husband is diabetic--agave nectar has a low glycemic index so he uses it in his coffee. I'm hoping the low glycemic properties make it better for goats than other sugary stuff). Anyway, I also mix my boys' AC in to make sure they get enough.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

MissyParkerton said:


> If you want to make sure they are getting enough minerals mix the daily recommended amount into their grain using a tiny bit of corn syrup or agave nectar. I use about a tsp or less of agave nectar (I have it on hand because my husband is diabetic--agave nectar has a low glycemic index so he uses it in his coffee. I'm hoping the low glycemic properties make it better for goats than other sugary stuff). Anyway, I also mix my boys' AC in to make sure they get enough.


That's a great idea! I think I'll do that, at least until I get a type of mineral mix the girls will actually eat.  I don't have those particular things, but we have tons of honey on hand all the time, I could use that. Thanks


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