# Urinary Calculi



## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Can u guys give me symptoms of this? I've been looking online and he doesn't seem to show those signs. He doesn't have the "water belly" but he has a saw horse stance. He was also butting at his stomach and running a few steps and stopping. He took pressure on his belly on the sides. Felt of the uterine tube and he didn't mind it but didn't react till I pushed in back in his stomach where his teats are. I'm so scared I have found this to late. I don't know what to do. Im scared right now! If I lose him I'm done


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

COuld he be bloated?? hard left side, destended?
Do you feel any crystals around his penis? 

begin Ammonium chloride jus tin case...Apple Cider vinegar may help if you donthave AC...


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## chuckles (Aug 7, 2014)

Unless I'm mistaken, the 'water belly' doesn't happen until after the bladder/urethra ruptures due to pressure. Is there a reason you haven't called your vet? Other than ammonium chloride or possibly raw ACV, I'm not aware of anything you can do. I cannot help you with the dosages on either of those things because I don't keep wethers around and have not had to deal with UC.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

heres a quote on doses

Vets recommend that ammonium chloride be used to treat Urinary Calculi. Ammonium chloride can be purchased in small quantities (four-pound packages) from Pipestone Vet Supply at 1-800-658-2523. Here are the dosing instructions provided to me by a producer who has been successful in using Ammonium chloride to cure Urinary Calculi. Mix the following in 20 cc water and orally drench: One (1) teaspoon Ammonium chloride per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for 2 days, then 1/2 tsp AC per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for the next 3 days, then 1/2 tsp once a day for 3 days, then 1/4 tsp daily as a preventative. Dosages are based upon 75 lb liveweights. Ammonium chloride burns the throat, so stomach tube it into the goat.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks will try the apple cider vinegar.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

He is a pet. That's why I have him. I work night shift and am on 12hr rotation right now. Hopefully get to get him to a Dr soon.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You can give banamine for pain...1 cc per 100# once daily...I would call your Vet ASAP...there is a pizzle snip they can do if the stones are not too large, th ebuck can pee them out...Please call your vet...


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

how is he today?


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

He is still with me. He is dribbling pee. I called the vet they had no idea what to do. So I called a breeder and he told me to get the ammonium chloride. Fixin to give it to him. I'm hoping I've caught it early. 
My husband told me that he ate a piece of paper the other day before he could get it from him. And he got out the other day and he said he was eating a piece off the archery target. Could that do something? Still pooping fine though. Hope this works. If he ain't better tomorrow going to take him to a Dr somewhere.


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## Josiah (Aug 6, 2014)

Give him some penicillin


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

If you can't get AC, but Fruit Fresh from your grocery store. It's the stuff that keeps fruit from Browning...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You need to get that ammonium chloride in him ASAP. That is going to be the difference in him making it or not.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

I put 9cc down him. He's not but 20#'s so I hope its not to much. But I feel better now that I've done something. He's still eating so I hope its good news. Thanks everyone


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

Josiah said:


> Give him some penicillin


Giving antibiotics when there is no infection just creates antibiotic resistant bugs...not a good idea.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Glad you were able to get some AC...here is that quote again
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculi06.html
using Ammonium chloride to cure Urinary Calculi. Mix the following in 20 cc water and orally drench: One (1) teaspoon Ammonium chloride per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for 2 days, then 1/2 tsp AC per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for the next 3 days, then 1/2 tsp once a day for 3 days, then 1/4 tsp daily as a preventative. Dosages are based upon 75 lb liveweights. Ammonium chloride burns the throat, so stomach tube it into the goat.

sending good thoughts!!


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks  for all the help.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

On the 1/4 tsp as a preventative... is that as a top dress on the feed?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes you can dop dress the feed : ) hows he doing tonight??


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

My husband checked on him before he came to work and said he was out picking grass. So I hope the AC is working. Any suggestions on hay or feed that isn't going to cause this anymore? Can I feed him feed just not a sweet one with corn in it? Or stop it all together and feed hay to the boys? Thanks for all ur help!


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

This is my husband weed eating with him. He said he worked so hard. Lol.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Exactly what does he get now?


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

It is the sweet mix by dumour from tractor supply. He gets a cup once a day. And pasture.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No hay?


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

I have been feeding a little along. There is pasture so I didn't think I needed to give as much. Maybe my mistake


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

I was told not to or they wouldn't keep the pasture down. Like I said I've given a little along but maybe not enough.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What you have to look at is their total diet. If your pasture is grass, then your calcium to phosphorus ratio is way off. The is more phosphorus than calcium in grass. So he really needs alfalfa in his diet. I would be feeding the alfalfa pellets instead of the feed.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree with Karen....Alfalfa pellets should bring some balance to his diet...also add loose minerals free choice..keep up thr AC treatment until he show no further signs of UC then do the preventive top dressed on his alfalfa pellets...


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

OK thanks


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

He is eating very well this morning. He seems a little aggressive towards my other guys but he is eating very well


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Hay has not interfered with my goats browsing. Goats in general are picky and won't munch anything they don't want to.

To keep him safe, he should get mostly hay, and I would say no grain at all. If he gets any, no more than 1/4 of a cup, with ammonium chloride added to it. But since he's already gotten UC, I would not give him any grain. I usually give my wethers hay, and some alfalfa pellets. During the plenty season of browse, I just give the alfalfa pellets and let them munch on the grasses and trees.  I just watch their weight and let that tell me if they need some extra hay.

Glad he's doing okay.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

I have given the alfalfa pellets to him and he would bloat a little. Would timothy pellets be OK? Or just give him small amounts of alfalfa?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No Timothy won't work, he needs the calcium to correct his diet. Try him on half alfalfa pellets and half beet pulp. Both of those contain a proper ratio and will boost his calcium. The beet pulp alone doesn't contain enough calcium to correct a whole diet though.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Okay, I just went back through and looked at him. Since he's a Pygmy he only needs one cup of alfalfa pellets twice a day. Just start really slow with 1/4 cup and work up a tiny bit at a time.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

OK thank u so much for all ur help. I really appreciate everything!


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

And thanks everyone for all ur concern and help also. Everyone has been great!


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## Naunnie (Jul 4, 2014)

> It is the sweet mix by dumour from tractor supply. He gets a cup once a day. And pasture.


 "Dumor® Goat *Sweet* does not contain ammonium chloride."

"DuMOR® Goat Feed is a high quality, nutritious* pellet* designed to provide the best in supplemental nutrition. It contains *ammonium chloride *to help support urinary tract health."


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Naunnie said:


> "Dumor® Goat *Sweet* does not contain ammonium chloride."
> 
> "DuMOR® Goat Feed is a high quality, nutritious* pellet* designed to provide the best in supplemental nutrition. It contains *ammonium chloride *to help support urinary tract health."


Would it be OK for my girls too?


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## Naunnie (Jul 4, 2014)

Yes it is okay to feed to the girls but....like already posted, goats need browse and hay first! There is* no *feed out there that can replace... browse and hay. Bagged feed has it's place. It all depends on the goats function, health condition, living conditions...ie dairy goats, meat goats, goats for breeding, does with kids, growing kids, and last but not least the pet goats... that just have to have their treats! I know...we love our goats and want to do right by them. Feeding can get so confusing. My advice, from what I have learned...TGS gets all the credit...spend your money on good hay, provide clean water, loose minerals free choice, browse as much as possible, never take parasites for granted and use bagged feed as warranted.

"Browse" Oh My! that can mean so much. Grassy pasture is not "browse" for goats. Yes they will eat grass but they prefer leaves, vines, undergrowth, bushes, brush, weeds. Variety is the "spice of life" for a goat. Nibble here and nibble over yonder.... makes for a happy, healthy goat. I would suggest ya do some research about what plants are in your area that they may have access too. A few...like Azaleas, Rhododendrons, Mt. Laurel are toxic, so take precautions.

Our goats came to us spoiled rotten! All they knew was "sweet feed" delivered to them twice a day. They did not know how to browse! They had never seen hay! We have rocked their world!!! Everyday...we get to help them become "goats" and everyday we feel blessed that we can! It's a slow process switching them from sweet feed to the pellets but we are getting there. We use the pellets as their treat... not their whole feed source.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The bad thing here is that no goat feed will balance grass hay and browse for wethers. They NEED the extra calcium from alfalfa pellets. They DON'T need feed if they are pets.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks everyone! U all have been a HUGE help!


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Just wanted to give an update. He is still not feeling good. But he is up and eating good. He seems to want to be right next to me in the pen. And he cries a lot when I leave the barn. I still see him standing with his head down and ears drooped. I did notice he had some crystals on his sheath. Someone told me that was a good sign that the AC is working. I sure hope so. Will be glad when he is back to himself. Poor lil guy.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

poor little guy...did you snip his pizzle off? this might help him pee out the remaining stones...are you still givinghim banamine?

here is a bit on home made drench from hoeggers..it may help him a bit further

Home Remedy: As stated before, this is an option for treatment of Urinary Calculi. This treatment in no way guarantees the successful treatment of your animal.
½ red onion
Juice from 3 lemons
6 garlic pods
¼ cup vinegar

Chop onion and garlic. Combine all ingredients in a container and put on the stove to boil. Heat until the garlic and onion are translucent. Remove and blend the mixture until liquefied. Divide the mixture into 4 equal parts. Give 1 part of the mixture by mouth immediately. Give the remaining doses by mouth as follows: 12 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours after the first treatment. It is imperative that you give all 4 doses of the treatment even if you see improvement after the first treatment.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

No I haven't snipped it. I don't know if I could do it or not. I may have to take him for a vet visit.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I dont know if I could do it either lol....I think a vet visit would be good if you could...might give him the relief he needs ..

best wishes


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I agree, snipping the pizzle may really help him. You'll need anti-inflammatory meds afterwards, because I have read that the swelling after it may block him up (which won't help). In the long run though, as long as you take care he doesn't swell, it can save lives.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

PEE! A strong stream of PEE! I have never been so happy to see that! Lol.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

How much longer do I need to give him the drench of AC? Till the end of the week or longer?


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## Naunnie (Jul 4, 2014)

Yay! That's wonderful! I have read that once flow is normal, keep dosing once a day for 7 more days.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

YAYYYYY, happy dance! I know that feeling all too well!    GREAT JOB!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

happybleats said:


> heres a quote on doses
> 
> Vets recommend that ammonium chloride be used to treat Urinary Calculi. Ammonium chloride can be purchased in small quantities (four-pound packages) from Pipestone Vet Supply at 1-800-658-2523. Here are the dosing instructions provided to me by a producer who has been successful in using Ammonium chloride to cure Urinary Calculi. Mix the following in 20 cc water and orally drench: One (1) teaspoon Ammonium chloride per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for 2 days, then 1/2 tsp AC per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for the next 3 days, then 1/2 tsp once a day for 3 days, then 1/4 tsp daily as a preventative. Dosages are based upon 75 lb liveweights. Ammonium chloride burns the throat, so stomach tube it into the goat.


Sorry, a little OT, do you give the ammonium chloride and ACV at the same time? I'm saving this for future reference.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thats great!!!...not to dampen this good news but remember there could be other stones he hasnt passed yet..keep a close watch on him...here is a quote on how long to treat from tenn. meat goats



> Vets recommend that ammonium chloride be used to treat Urinary Calculi. Ammonium chloride can be purchased in small quantities (four-pound packages) from Pipestone Vet Supply at 1-800-658-2523. Here are the dosing instructions provided to me by a producer who has been successful in using Ammonium chloride to cure Urinary Calculi. Mix the following in 20 cc water and orally drench: One (1) teaspoon Ammonium chloride per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for 2 days, then 1/2 tsp AC per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for the next 3 days, then 1/2 tsp once a day for 3 days, then 1/4 tsp daily as a preventative. Dosages are based upon 75 lb liveweights. Ammonium chloride burns the throat, so stomach tube it into the goat.


you can add ACV to water for him to choose to drink...always provide fresh clean water for goats to choose...

congrats and best wishes!!


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Yes I know this is a small victory...but he peed!!! . Made my day!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I say its a huge victory!! you did great!!!


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

I was working on the fence yesterday and he was picking at me and being the little fence helper brat that he usually is.  he hasn't acted that way in two weeks. Glad he is!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

wonderful news : ) good job!!


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Got signs in both of them again.  tight touchy belly and under side. Been giving the AC to both. Going to do another round.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

oh im sorry...this might be reaccuring until they get all stones out.. :sad:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I hope you can get it cleared up.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Me too. I have had them since they were just a few weeks old. I bottle fed them. They are my babies.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Sorry, a little OT, do you give the ammonium chloride and ACV at the same time? I'm saving this for future reference.


sorry I didnt see this three havens....

I have never personally dealt with UC in our herd..but I dont see why you can use them together...maybe some one knows better then me ; )


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## Naunnie (Jul 4, 2014)

Did I miss something? Billy and Flash are both having problems? Are you putting ACV in their water? My goats like it, but I've read some don't or take a while to get used it. Think it was happybleats.... advised to have a bucket of plain water available just in case they refuse to drink the ACV water. Poor guys. :sad: I hope they recover soon. Besides the AC, keeping hydrated is key, as you know. I think, I saw a post about adding grape juice, cranberry juice...maybe kool-aid to help encourage drinking.

How is their appetite? Might help to offer some leafy branches to them. If you are still giving sweet feed, I would gradually switch to the pellets with the added AC. What kind of hay are they eating? My goats have plenty of browse but providing hay has become quite a challenge. Just yesterday, I read that Bermuda is high in phosphorus and if fertilized with chicken litter....phosphorus level will be even higher. Of course, that whats readily available in my area. :roll: I'm trying to get the Calcium/Phosphorus ratio just right......

I hope you don't have to, but snipping the pizzle may be necessary. That would be my Vets job!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you need to be careful encouraging too much watrer if they are not peeing at all or if its slow...its a rock and hard place...if they cant pee well enough..bladder can get too ful and burst...you encourage more fluid intake once they are peeing a steady stream...keep with the AC treatment as recommended...AVC is a nice support..and yes..always provide both fresh water to choose as well..

best wishes


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

What is the AVC? And where do I get it?


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

ACV is Apple Cider Vinegar. You can get it at any grocery store.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

They are eating fine. I've been switching the feed over to the pellets. All I could find as far as hay goes is orchard grass mixed hay. That's what is available. I'm going to keep up the AC.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Just got the AVC Lol. Apple cider vinegar. Can u tell I'm in panic mode. Lol


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> What is the AVC? And where do I get it?


oops ACV sorry : ) yes..apple cider vinegar


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

That's ok, I read it wrong and took it as ACV anyway lol!


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Naunnie yes now my other boy flash is showing signs. I've been treating him too just in case. Glad I already started him on it.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What exactly is everything they eat? Could be your phosphorus is too high. Grass hay has higher phosphorus so you will need to balance it out with alfalfa pellets.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

That is what I'm changing them to. Sweet feed for goats over to alfalfa pellets. It is more of an orchardgrass than fescue hay.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

If you are feeding loose minerals (which you should) you can buy di-calcium phosphate powder made for horses and mix some of that into the minerals until they are getting the proper amount of alfalfa pellets. That will up their calcium intake and hopefully help stem the formation of crystals.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Oh I'm so sorry! I think the alfalfa pellets will help. After this clears, I'd do alfalfa pellets, hay, and ammonium chloride in their minerals daily. So sorry you have to go through this!


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks everyone. Its hard when u try to do everything right and this still happens.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

It can happen to anyone, it really can. You're doing great. The only thing we can do is keep learning, keep trying, and never beat yourself up.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks. I will try not to get down to much.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Well guys the battle is still on. I had to get bute today from the vet. Giving it every 48 hrs. 1/4 tablet mixed in coke....which they l o v e! He told me he didn't want to snip them unless it was an emergency. He said no more grain, alfalfa pellets, and they would have to be grass and hay goats. He prescribed urinary tract formula cat food for them to have as a treat and to help prevent the stones. But they would sniff it and shy away like they were saying really mom? Lol. They are still eating good and they eat the AC like its candy. So I dont know what else I can do. Billy is alot better than he was. But flash has gotten worse. I tried to check him and he got very aggressive and almost hooked me. So I knew it was time for some pain meds. Please keep my boys in ur prayers and pray they make it. After this I wont be keeping any males other than sire animals. Done with urinary caculi!!!!! Here are pics of how swollen they are  makes me hurt.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Billy is the 1st pic. Flash the 2nd.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Whats yalls opinion on taking the alfalfa pellets away? Yea or nea?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I would not take the alfalfa away personally ... I am so so SO sorry about all this. I know, it's absolutely awful.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks ThreeHavens. I wont. Im hopeing I can get my money back for the cat food. Lol. I was willing to try anything. It was $30


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

If the vet believes the cat treats will be beneficial, you could try wrapping them up in something they would like ... like peanut butter, a banana peel, etc. I have also given medicine to goats like a pill to a dog - pop it in (careful of the very sharp back teeth), close the mouth, and wait for a swallow.

When I was concerned for one of my guys who was returned to me, I gave him a slurry of ACV, EZ-Pee (Molly's herbals sells this with good reviews, it is a relaxant and an anti-inflammatory, as well as beneficial to help dissolve stones), and a bit of molasses and stevia to help it down. I kept at it for awhile. He was mad at me, but his pee stream eventually returned to a beautiful full stream and stayed that way for the year or two that we had him.

You are really doing a great job. You're doing everything right - research, taking it to the vet, etc. I wouldn't wish this on anyone.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Me neither. Thank you for all ur help. I will get through this one way or another. Hope its a happy ending.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Flash has a bit of a fever. Is the bute going to be enough to bring it down?


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Nay. That vet is of the old school of thought and obviously has not done any reading on UC and it's causes. Alfalfa or some other calcium supplement is a necessity. Grass hay is high in phosphorus and, with plain grain, is the leading cause of UC.

Goats should not have cat food either, even as a treat.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

They wouldnt eat it. They smelled it and shyed away from it. They walked 5 foot away and was like really?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes...give alfalfa!..I agree no grain..since they have UC issues...AC is needed daily and NO CAT FOOD!! I am suprised the vet suggested it....Alflafa pellets or hay and graze along with coastal, green leaves ect.......they will adjust once they realize they arent getting anything else...


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Lol. They werent having it


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Wow I am so sorry to hear about what you have been going through. We have a couple wethers too and I have worried about UC. We have boer wethers. We feed them black oil sunflower seeds, field peas, a non gmo/organic grain mix (scratch and peck brand goat food), kelp, minerals each day. They are fed twice a day. Also they have most of the time free choice Orchard Grass. Am I setting up my boys for this? Our field is going to be reseeded as all we have is mainly dandelions and it needs more grass.

I have actually heard alfalfa isn't good for wethers.....think our vet said that. I am hearing here that you are saying to eat it. So naturally I am confused now.

I am still trying to figure out our 'balance' for their diets. Their weights are good and their coats are amazing eating this way. So....should I be changing anything? We are fairly new to goat raising and still learning. The girls are easier to feed....what should I change for our wethers?

Tami


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

farmerjon..unless the wethers are still young and growing they do not need grain of any kind..Hay and alfalfa is perfect for them...and yes..alfalfa is good for bucks and wethers..: )

goats need Calcium to be 2:1 to phosphorus...they get phosphrus in their grass hay and grains...so the alfalfa helps balance the Calcium out...You can also give them daily ammonium chloride..here is a article to get you started on reading about UC andhow to prevent it...and how to reat it if you have a case..
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculi06.html


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Trouble is Cathy that if all I feed them is hay and alfalfa....being boers I just think they need more than that to look good weight wise. Maybe I am wrong. But I do think they need something other than hay and alfalfa....just my two cents. I don't have the experience you have so I do appreciate your advice!!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If your feed is balanced, you should be ok. Just watch any supplements that you might add.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

If weightlossis an issue..then yes a little well balanced grain wont hurt...and if you add AC daily to help prevent UC and also adding alfalfa then they should be fine...but a fit wether doesnt need the grain at all..if its just you feel bad not giving it ( I know I would lol) then offer alfalfa pellets... either way..keeping their feed/ hay and alfalfa balanced is key...adding alfalfa might be all that is needed...

we feed a mix of whole oats, barley and BOSS mixed 1 part grain mix with with 3 parts alfalfa pellets to our boys in rut...once they are out of rut we will decrease their grain because I hate taking it totally away lol..Im a softy...but they wont get as much as they need during rut..maybe half if not less...


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

I looked at my grain mix (not the other stuff I feed) and it is non gmo and organic....great feed but the calcium rate it states is min 1.50% to max 2.00%, Phosphorus is .70% Ash is listed next to it. Is that also phosphorus?

So because it looks like it isn't 2.5/1 calcium/phos I should add more calcium.....considering I feed orchard grass hay I should probably feed more calcium. Does Black Oil Sunflower Seeds and Field peas have lots of calcium? Or more Phosphorus heavy percentages?

Tami


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I feed my boys whole oats. 

Your grain is well balanced there's no reason the change it. Orchard grass is high in phosphorus, so yes, some alfalfa would be of benefit. A good rate would be 1 lb alfalfa hay or pellets for 75 lbs of goat. 

You can mix alfalfa hay and orchard grass half and half and it works out really well. I tend to stick to the pellets as they don't waste them.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would add alfalfa..hay or pellets...that should help balance it out..

peas have a .17% calcium and .50 phos. 
BOSS is .17/.52 
alfalfa is .53 / .07

http://goat-link.com/content/view/98/85/#.VAZoqmRdV2A


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Are oats high in calcium Jill? So maybe I should take out the peas and sunflowers for the boys and give them a bit of alfalfa pellets and oats?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here, I worked this out for you once before I think. What ratios are you using of each thing?

I put an answer on your other thread as well.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The peas are very high in Lysign which our hays here are very deficient in. That is the reason I suggest people in the Northwest use them. The hay I'm using right now is coming in from Montana. When that ends, I will be back to feeding peas as well.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Hi Jill: I am so sorry, yes you probably did! I didn't keep the thread....and should have! We feed the boys twice a day in their bowls a cup of grain, about 1/4-1/3 cup ea time we feed of peas and sunflower seeds...they also get kelp once a day in their bowls as well as minerals and rum a fresh plus. We can cut back the grain and give them some alfalfa pellets. The orchard grass we are feeding came from eastern oregon. I'd love to find a better source for getting hay. It is crazy expensive here!

Let me know what you think about the stuff we feed. It may have changed from teh last time you chatted with us about this. But this is what we have been feeding for a while. The boys look amazing! Coats are amazing! I really love the Scratch and Peck brand goat food.....this is what is in it:

Crude Protein Min 15%
Crude Fat Min 3.50%
Crude Fiber Max 8.00%
ADF Min 9.10%
Calcium Min 1.50%
Calcium Max 2.00%
Phosphorus Min.70%
Ash Max 10.00%
Sodium Max .50%
Salt Min.85%
Salt Max 1.25%
Copper Min 30 ppm
Copper Max 40 ppm
Selenium Min 1.50 ppm
Selenium Max 2.50 ppm
Selenium (added) Min 1.00 ppm
Selenium (added) Max 2.00 ppm
vitamin A Min 16000 IU/lb
vitamin E Min 50 IU/lb
Omega 3 Fatty Acids Min 1.00%

Ingredients: Organic Oats, Organic Peas, Organic Corn, Organic Linseed Meal, Organic Barley, Organic Wheat, Pre-mix: (Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Magnesium Oxide, Calcium Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Active Dry Yeast, Zinc Polysaccharide Complex, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Calcium Iodate and Sodium Selenite). Limestone (calcium carbonate), Organic Vegetable Oil, Salt

Sorry for the long post.....just thought I'd let you know what is in the grain mix.

Thank you Jill for your help!! We appreciate it!


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks Cathy for letting me know what is in the BOSS and alfalfa and peas above....that is helpful to have the understanding what ratios they have. Thank you!! Yes part of it is they are very spoiled....but I dont' want to over feed and they could be cut back on their food I suppose. They aren't fat I don't think, for boers they look healthy. I do like to have them be able to have some grain with the others when they are fed.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Flash's fever is gone thank goodness. Still not a v wery strong stream. So i have about another week of drenching the AC. Billy has a good strong stream. This has been a rough month. I would not wish this on my worst enemy. Thanks again everyone that has given advice.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

So glad Billy's stream is improved. I'll keep praying. What an awful month.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Thank u sooo much!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

No goat in healthy condition should lose weight on an average or better alfalfa hay. In fact you have a better chance to make them fat then for them to lose weight.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

I have another question. I'm having trouble getting the bute down the boys for pain. Any ideas to get the pill down them. I used coke the first day. Then they caught on to it. I have been trying to find it in the paste form but have been unsuccessful. . Any ideas will help.


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## Naunnie (Jul 4, 2014)

I'm so glad Flash and Billy are improving. ray: 

As for pills, I have read several ways. Smear peanut butter on bread, stick pill in pb and roll into a doughball. 

A leaf with pb also may work. Feed a leaf, then the pb/pill leaf, then another leaf. 

If you can crush it, then mix it with applesauce and cooked oatmeal, feed it off a spoon. 

Hiding a pill in a marshmallow. 

You could also ask the Vet for a small balling gun. I know the Bute paste is labeled for horses. Bute is not usually recommend for Goats. Banamine is a better choice. Have you considered baby aspirin?


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks I will try these and hope I can get it down them.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

We take one step forward and three steps back. Ive done everything I know to do. And tried everything u guys have advised me to do. Flash is swelled bad! This has happened over night. The vet doesnt want to do the surgery either. 
He didn't really want to eat and he wouldnt let me touch him. He was very aggressive and even charged me.
Im afraid im going to lose this one. In tears and heart broke over my baby.


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## Naunnie (Jul 4, 2014)

I'm sorry. You have all been thru a lot.:hug: What surgery does the vet not want to do? Maybe I missed something, but what about snipping his pizzle?


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## Naunnie (Jul 4, 2014)

Ok I missed your post about the Vet not wanting to snip unless it's an emergency. Well it is now! Is it possible to find another Vet asap? I know it's Sunday but swelling is not a good sign. If not a Vet, do you have any goat friends nearby? Maybe someone with experience can come over and help.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

If he were mine I would look up how to snip the pizzle myself...its risk...but no more than leaving him in his current state...here is a link to help you
http://www.bendingtreeranch.com/images/uc.pdf

If you have a friend or some one close by who has experiance with goats I would contact them OR tell your vet if he does not do it you will...this is the end of the line for your buck..he needs help now...You have done so well with him and Im very sorry you are going through this...the only other thing you can do is humanly put him down because what happens next is his bladder filling and bursting...A very painful death...

Again..I am soo sorry you have to make this decision...

((HUGS))!! and best wishes


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Oh so awful ... I agree with everything Cathy said. You have done everything, and you are amazing for it. :hug: :hug: :hug:


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## GoatGirlZ (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm so sorry that this is happening to you were are battling with some unfortunate stuff at the moment to and I hope that everything pulls through for you. 


On another note how r they doin so far??


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Vets coming in the morning. Thats the quickest I could get him out. Im so so sad.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Vet came and did an exam on both the boys. Pee pees ok no stones, bladder intact. Told me to keep up the AC for now. He said they have a rumen issue and that's what was causing the swelling. He didnt say they didnt have the stones this past month but he said he could find none during the exam. He did a fecal and I have a small issue with barber pole worms. So we going to get tbe pee stronger then deworm them. Thanks for all the help. U guys have been awesome and supported me through all this. I will always appreciate it!


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## Naunnie (Jul 4, 2014)

I'm so glad you posted. I've been thinking about y'all and honestly was a little scared to click on it. Your good news makes my day!! :wahoo: I can only imagine how you must feel! 
You have done an awesome job with these Guys! :thumbup:


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Ooooh, a worm load would make them feel yucky too! Plus with them already dealing with stones, any sort of pain or stress makes goats more prone to worms. So glad to hear they are peeing well. Please keep us posted.


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

Like I said u guys are awesome. I haven't met u in person but i consider yall family. Thank u for going through this with me!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Keep up with the AC. Great work!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I am very happy no stones were felt, I dont mean to be a wet blanket..just want to be sure all his bases are covered :hugs:...I would still keep a very close eye on that swelling...Im comfused how rumen issue can cause his penis to swell? :question::shrug: Was he grinding his teeth? Is she peeing a steady stream? eating ok? pooping berries?


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## cteague (Aug 17, 2013)

He is doing all of the above. He ground hos teeth yesterday after the exam. Im going to keep up yhe AC just incase


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

So he's peeing a steady stream, but grinding his teeth? He may be still working on some smaller stones or, as your vet said, sometimes bloat (or wormload) can cause discomfort.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would keep a super close eye on things..if he stops peeing, or shows other signs things are an emergency ( see quote)...he will need help immediately...so have what you need on hand...just in case be prepared...hopefully he will be just fine but being ready wont hurt...



> Symptoms of Urinary Calculi include tail twitching in males, restlessness, anxiety, and a "hunched-up" body posture as the goat strains to urinate. Sometimes the producer mis-diagnoses the problem as constipation or bloat because of goat's behavior and body stance. The producer should closely examine any male exhibiting these symptoms. Watch for signs of difficulty with urination.


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