# All my goaties are dying!



## 5andcounting (Dec 14, 2009)

Ok This could get long....sorry
We had 4 babies to 2 mothers 4.5 weeks ago. One baby died at birth(she was born early) her brother survived. Then we lost our grandma goat to what we thought was old age(I am begin to 2nd guess that). About a week after losing grandma we lost another babythe brother to the first baby we lost. Nothing out of the ordinary going on before we lost him. He was fine when I fed the night before, went down the next afternoon and he was gone. Then about a week later we lost the little girl from the other mother. She had been having trouble keeping her temp that weekend and had been in and out of our house. She was holding her temp and eating fine after about 2 days, then I go down to feed and see her laying on her side. It looked like she was seizing. She was dead about 2 mins after I got to her. No temp it was normal, normal poop, eating and drinking. I have spoken with the vet numerous times during all this. Grandma he agreed was old age and the 1 2 babies he though might have had something wrong with them. However after we lost a baby from the other mother I had had it. I took the 1 baby that was left straight to the vet, Had him checked. He check out perfect fat and happy. Momma was fine no need to see her the vet said. Fast forward 1 week to the day. I had been down late thursday night and fed. We were getting ready to head out of town for the weekend on friday. So I sent my cousin down to feed and I was gonna go down after I loaded the camper. He calls me from the barn and says Gracies Dead. Gracie is the momma goat. I tried to get a neo (autopsy) on her. But the vet could not get to her and told me to store her in my fridge( who has a fridge big enough or empty enough for a goat) :veryangry: So now I am down 5 goats in 4 weeks and I have a baby living in my house that I am tending to night and day. What is killing my goats??? I am so lost the vet says IDK some help you r! ray: ANything anyone can suggest! I am having such a hard time. and Gracie was my baby!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I am so sorry you have lost so many so fast :hug:

Kelebek here just went through a series of losses within her herd not too long ago... viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16786&start=0

I know you had said that all that passed had been normal BUT pastuerella gets them very fast, most don't have time to show signs of illness.

Another thing to check since they all eat the same things and are housed in the same area, look for things in their hay or in their feed that may be toxic to them.

I pray that whatever it is, it leaves your critters soon and I hope you can get some answers :hug:


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

Wow. I don't know where to start.... :hug: first. I'm so sorry you are loosing goats. Ok. What vac's have they had? Everyone up to date on everything? Did you change hay or feed? What was the last wormer you used and how much per pound? What does the pasture look like? Any odd plants or mushrooms you haven't noticed before? Have you or any of the goats been anywhere around strange goats? (shows, another barn, vet, sales barn) Anything at all out of the ordinary. What has the weather been like? It has really started to cool off here especially at night. This is all I can think of right now....again I'm so sorry. I hope your vet can come up with something.

Gina


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## 5andcounting (Dec 14, 2009)

They are all eating hay from the same round bale. They were wormed with safe guard about 6 to 7 weeks ago (sorry I am at work and don't have the exact dates) CDT's in the 2 that delivered about 8 weeks ago. The others were cdt in feb of this year. Pasture seems fine, the have free range hay out there that is covered. They get sweet feed and corn. No the goats that delivered have been in the barn since delivery day. The others in the feild. No one has left this farm except the baby to go to the vet. The only thing that has changed is we now have a horse in the pasture with them. The weather was fine until this weekend and it has turned off cool which is why the baby is living in our house. The vet hasn't been any help. That's why I am trying to solve this myself. It is getting very hard to explain to my 4 and 7 year olds why mommy can't save the goats. I tried to get the vet out but he said he doesn't feel the need to come out.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't use Safeguard here due to the fact that it has become a resistant wormer....check their eyelids, they should be pink...if they are very pale or white then you may have a wormload with them. They also could have gotten bad hay, depending on wether the rolls got wet and started to mold.

Any chance the horse could have hurt them?


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## 5andcounting (Dec 14, 2009)

No the horse is in the pasture and all the babies and the momma was in the barn. The Vet has refered us to University of Tennesse Vet school. They are thinking worm overload, I have to check their eyes tonight and see what color they are. They also perform neroscopy for free ao if we lose anymore hopefully not but I am suppose to bring them straight in.


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

How long has the horse been in the pasture? Safeguard doesn't kill Strongyles and an overload would kill goats pretty quickly. Hopefully you are able to figure out what is wrong soon! I'm sorry that you've had to go through so many losses.  :hugs:


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## Mully (Jun 23, 2009)

First i would get a new vet .... dying goats is not a need to come out, what would it take for him to come out?? Safeguard in many areas is not safe... many worms have built up a resistance to safeguard. Check the round bale of hay for mold. I would use Ivermec 1cc per 20lbs and worm them all, right away.


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## beefy (Aug 3, 2009)

worm overload is my guess.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Do you have ponds around your place?
Liverflukes thrive in them...and expose the goat... 

did they have bottle jaw?

I agree ...that safeguard doesn't work any more.... 

Have a fecal done on your remaining goats... have them checked for cocci and worms....

Your vet is heartless and I recommend seeking a new one.... 

I am so sorry... for your losses...  :hug:


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Worms might have gotten the "grandma goat" and "mama goat" mentioned, especially when you consider they were only lightly wormed a few weeks *before* they would have really begun to experience the "periparturient rise" of barberpoles.. Still, I don't think worms explain the loss of the kids... They were just born about 5wks ago now, so they probably didn't do much grazing up until they passed.. Even if they have grazed a lot, though, you'd still have to consider the life cycles and molting periods for the worm larvae they'd have ingested, plus the time it takes for the worms to overwhelm their hemopoietic systems, etc.. I wouldn't expect to see that in kids so young.

And had it been moldy hay or feed, listeriosis would have been the most likely pathogen and that comes with a RAGING fever -- yet no fever was noted on anybody. And the ages, to me anyway, even lead me away from it being coccidiosis.. Like worms, coccidia have life cycles and so forth to be considered, and to take one that quickly would point to *acute* coccidiosis -- but there was no mention of scour.

Having said all that...I've no clue what *would* be responsible for a tragedy like this, especially if we're talking about it having been a single cause of death for all those which have passed. I can't personally think of anything that kills so indescriminately and across such a wide range of goat "classes" (i.e., kids, young adults, aged adults, males, females, etc), yet carries so few obvious hallmarks.

I'm really sorry this is happening. I hope UT Vet School can help you, but more importantly, I hope the worst is over.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Found this interesting article....please read..

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... zEBuYZWIUw



> *acute* coccidiosis -- but there was no mention of scour.


 Not always do they show signs of scours.... we had a case on here that had a older doe just wasting away...no matter how fed...wormed... she never scoured... After figuring out the cause ...the vet found ...she had cocci...and .... it was cause of death...


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## 5andcounting (Dec 14, 2009)

OK sorry I didn't update yesterday, I was running goats to the vet school all day. The have worms, and they believe that worms is what killed grandma, and Gracie. The Babies the first 2 we lost they believe to have had something not completely formed inside. The 3rd baby he isn't sure but he said the momma may have been going down hill then and the baby wasn't getting enough nutrients. I took 2 to the vet school yesterday one had a blood level of 18 (normal is between 30 and 35 according to them) the other one was at 32. Gizmo the one with the blood level of 18 had alot of worms. That is the only thing they could find wrong with her. So we wormed her you ivermetic. I have been checking eye mucus membranes to see if anyone else needs wormed. He believes that these works killed the other goats as well. I am not suppose to worm on a schedule anymore, just check them once a month or if they start acting funny. Thanks for everything. Hopefully we are in the clear now, I really don't want to lose anymore. 

Oh and side note the baby boy that is living in our laundry room is doing wonderful. He is now taking a bottle 3 times aday and has learned to drink water from a doggie dish and is eating some sweet feed.


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

:clap: So happy your baby is doing so well......been following this thread and have been so sad  for you........good thoughts coming your way!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

glad to hear you have a treatment going.


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## 5andcounting (Dec 14, 2009)

cdtrum said:


> :clap: So happy your baby is doing so well......been following this thread and have been so sad  for you........good thoughts coming your way!


Thanks This has been so hard.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I totally feel your pain - {hugs} Glad things turn around for you


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Congrats....I am thrilled... that it is finally under control.... :thumb: :hug: ray: :leap:


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Thank you for the update. That is wonderful news. :leap:  

What was your deworming schedule before?


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## 5andcounting (Dec 14, 2009)

I dewormed with safeguard ever 3 to 4 months.


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## mrs. lam (Apr 20, 2010)

Praise God it was good news! I'm so happy the baby is doing well. :hug: 

Gina


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm so glad that you got a definate cause of death, keeping worms away takes a good deal of effort and being on top of the type and what wormer still works really helps.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

toth boer goats said:


> > *acute* coccidiosis -- but there was no mention of scour.
> 
> 
> Not always do they show signs of scours.... we had a case on here that had a older doe just wasting away...no matter how fed...wormed... she never scoured... After figuring out the cause ...the vet found ...she had cocci...and .... it was cause of death...


Well, they actually do always show scour with *acute* coccidiosis. The presence of scour is, in part, what distinguishes _acute_ coccidiosis from _subacute_ (aka _subclinical_) and/or _chronic_ coccidiosis.

My thinking was that if coccidia were the culprit in the kids' passing, their very young ages would have all but ruled out subacute or chronic coccidiosis.. In those cases, you tend to get poor-doing _older_ kids -- or adults, on occasion -- that languish in a "slow burn," to so speak, for weeks or months on end before eventually succumbing.

The kids in question, in my opinion, didn't have *time* to have died from subacute or chronic coccidiosis. My feeling is that if their passing was related to coccidia at all, it almost had to be acute coccidiosis -- which it wasn't, because there was no mention of scour.

That's what led me to think it was, in all likelihood, something other than coccidia. What else?...I dunno. UT's Vet School speculated they may have had internal issues -- their guess is probably better than most anyone's, so if I had to speculate, I'd probably join in and speculate along those same lines.



5andcounting said:


> I took 2 to the vet school yesterday one had a blood level of 18 (normal is between 30 and 35 according to them) the other one was at 32. Gizmo the one with the blood level of 18 had alot of worms. That is the only thing they could find wrong with her. So we wormed her you ivermetic.
> ...
> He believes that these worms killed the other goats as well.


The blood level they were checking was most likely "packed cell volume" or "hematocrit." What that's a measure of, basically, is the percentage of a volume of blood that's occupied by red blood cells. Take, for instance, the one who came in at 32...that one's blood is about 32% red blood cells with the majority of the balance being plasma, along with some white blood cells, platelets, etc..

Red blood cells are what carry oxygen -- very, very important! Makes sense, then, that the one who came in at 18 is pretty stressed with this worm load.

Something else that can ventually happens as the PCV number drops is that the blood gets thinner and thinner, being comprised mostly of plasma, and actually begins to seep from the capillaries. That gives rise to edema -- "fluid" collecting under the skin. If that goat keeps its head to the ground grazing all day, gravity dictates that the fluid will begin to collect under the chin and around the neck and BAM -- you've got a case of "bottlejaw."

Anyway...I'm rambling. :doh:

When the vet school said "these worms," they're almost certainly talking about a worm that's pretty much the arch enemy of every grazing goat owner -- Haemonchus Contortus. It's also known as the "barberpole worm."

You're not the first, nor will you be the last, to lose herdmembers to barberpole worms. Seriously, it happens all the time. Keep checking those mucous membranes, as they're a fair-to-middlin' guage of PCV...the whiter they get, the lower the PCV, and the more endangered the goat becomes.

You'll be alright now that you know what to look for.  It takes some time to get used to the ins and outs, and keeping a grazing goat in manageable shape in the face of such destructive internal parasites is truly a Herculean task to even the most experienced goat owners -- if there even *is* such a person who'd qualify to be considered "experienced"! Goats come up with new ways to challenge us every...single...day.

BUT...that's why we love'm. 

:grouphug:

BTW...what was your overall impression of UTCVM's handling of a "goat situation?" Did they kinda have people there who knew goats right off the bat, or did they have to do a bunch of research first? I ask because I'm *seriously* considering a run at vet school, hoping to specialize in farm animals and small ruminants, and UTCVM would definitely be my school of choice..


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Well, they actually do always show scour with acute coccidiosis. The presence of scour is, in part, what distinguishes acute coccidiosis from subacute (aka subclinical) and/or chronic coccidiosis.


 I feel different on this ...but everyone has there own opinion.... and I respect that ..... so lets just rejoice...5andcounting's...good news....of finding the cause... :hug:


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## 5andcounting (Dec 14, 2009)

CMjust0.... Yes you are correct in what you called the blood test. And yes I am convinced that this is what killed them. I can say that I love that vet school. The vet in the large animal dept knew exactly what to do with her without having to research it at all. He was awesome in all aspects and they checked both the goats I had down there and treated Gizmo for worms. I was there all of 2 hours at the most, with 3 to 4 people with us at all times. And it only cost us 68.00! From now on they will be doing all of our care. Oh and they do nercopsy for free on cows and goats! So if god forbid we lose anymore they will be going straight there. Anyways I am rambling but I can't say enough good things about this school! 
O and they gave me a packet of info on the system that you use to check the eyes, can't remember what it is called but starts with F. And a card with the levels of pinkness and when to vacc and when not to.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

thats great Ashley! that chart is the FAMACHA chart


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

That's really cool! Good to know there are some good goat folks there.

As Liz Lemon would say.....I want to go to there.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Just to add to the above, I've heard from at least three different vets that most vet schools neither teach nor care much about goats. The two large-animal guys at the clinic I regularly use have both told me that their education on what kills goats basically consisted of the following:

If it's not worms, it's dogs. If it's not dogs, it's worms. And if it's not worms, it's dogs. But it's not dogs, it's....you get the idea.

Another vet around here used to work strictly out of his truck and was getting pretty good at working with goats...right before he moved! :/ He said he got all of about a day's worth of classroom instruction on goats when he was in school, and that was it. The rest, he learned in the field and from goat producers in this area.

So that's why I was asking how they were toward goats at UTCVM, and why I was excited to see the response.. Seems like they have some pretty good goat knowledge, and that they care.. That's encouraging to me.


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## 5andcounting (Dec 14, 2009)

Yes the vet at the vet school seemed to know exactly what he was talking about, it probably helps that that side of the vet school specializes strickly in large animals. While I was there I was wondering around and they had 2 other goats in there and probably 10 horses, 2 cows, a bull, and 2 pigs. Oh and they keep a goat and sheep on the property. PLus the vet has sheep of his own. He never once left gizmos side and was right on the money. He assitants ran the fecal and slides and came back with the response worms after he had already told me that was what he suspected. They were awesome. And he said not to hesistate to call him any time I had a question!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

That is the best news ever... you are very lucky.... to have the vet school near .....with those prices... :thumbup: ..congrats....now you will get the help.... when needed ....I am so happy for you..... :hi5: :hug: :thumb:


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Wow.. It just keeps sounding better all the time!


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Praise God. :leap:


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## goatboat (Oct 28, 2010)

Didn't get a chance to read all the posts, but wanted to mention it before it slipped my mind. 

Wild Cherry leaves/trees! Maybe... My friend lost a few goats lately to wild cherry trees. Their leaves arn't toxic until they start to wilt.

You guys probably know about it, but figured it was worth a guess in case it wasn't thought of. Maybe they got in a bale of hay when they were baled up or something. 

Hope you find out what is happening to your goats. God bless you and your goats! ray:


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## 5andcounting (Dec 14, 2009)

I am pretty sure it was worms that killed them. As of right now everyone else is health. I had Max (the baby with no momma) in the house until this week. He made is move to the barn and is doing wonderful. He is still not big enough to move to the pasture yet as he can escape and the horse might step on him. I have been keeping a very close eye on all of them. Thank you all for all your thoughts, prayers and suggestions.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

glad everyone is doing better now :hug:


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