# Management Help



## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

So I feel like it's time to change a few things. 
Mainly the hay and minerals I feed out, the vaccinations I give, the general lack of secondary supplementing(i.e. boluses, mineral/vitamin injections, extra feed additives), the routine hoof care I give and their shelter situation.

I'm having issues with mineral deficiencies, that's for certain. My ND doe gave birth to kids that obviously had a selenium/vit. E issue and I've lost some luster and depth of color in my ND's and my Angora crosses and have rusty spots.

I trim hooves about every 3 weeks, sometimes every 2 weeks, sometimes every 4. Not more than 4 weeks between trimmings. I've been noticing a breakdown of inner hoof walls, cracking kind of, and a general softness, a slight smell but not horribly noticeable. I have a supreme sense of smell though, so it could just be nothing with the smell. It's been gradually progressing across the board. I trim parallel to the coronary band and I use a rasp and I try to keep their pen and she dry, so I don't think it's necessarily rampant foot rot. Just some softness and breakdown for some reason. :/

Those are the two issues right now that I feel are linked and easiest to correct. 
I'm wondering if I should start incorporating a regular footbath for prevention/treatment of foot issues? Also, I've already asked about Onyx and Sweetlix, but are there any other mineral choices worth my time/money? And what about copper boluses or BoSe?

I feel like the foot and mineral issues are most pertinent here, since if it's gets any worse it'll get right out of hand.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Copper is supposed to improve foot health, so I'd try that first.

Mine really like kelp meal although it's not as balanced as goat formulated minerals, so I've been mixing it with the Sweetlix to get them to eat both.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

The loose minerals you mention are excellent. I have found that if they aren't fresh & dry my girls wont touch them. So I go out every day with a pan of it.
BoSe if you are def in your area. Most places are.
As for feet, perpetual dampness is a factor.
In the Pac NW we fight it constantly, feet having to be done every month as opposed to every 3 mos in dry climates.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I trim so much cuz it's always wet here. There's snow everywhere right now, but that just means Spring is wettest of all. The ENTIRE pasture floods in the spring. 
I live in the North NE.

Copasure makes a goat/sheep bolus right? Is that my only option for a copper bolus?

My goats love kelp.
Love it so much I can't keep it out there!

I've been thinking that putting in raised platforms for bedding spots might keep my fiber girls cleaner and may give them a better chance at staying dry. I add bedding whenever it's wet, but sometimes it floods under and soaks up through before I notice. It's awful.
We're hopefully moving in the fall. We're planning on building up the area where the goats will spend the most time so that it drains properly.
I like the size of their current shelter, but it's really just a 12x12 box with a door. I'm going to need something bigger, since I have kids now and have more coming, but I'm at a loss for how big to make it. I have 5 ND's and 2 Angora crosses. I want to separate my angora x's, separate my ND bucks and keep my ND does together. 
I really love cattle panels for dividers, we buy the 54"x16' ones and cut them to size.
How much space should they have? They're only locked up in bad weather and barely spend any time in there in the spring, summer and fall, but in the winter barely leave.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Mix your kelp in with the mineral. I use Onyx and love it. But my area is very deficient in copper and selenium so I still have to supplement at least twice a year. Replamin Plus is another good supplement. My girls get 5 cc every other week.

Certainly the wetness in your area will cause foot problems but lack of minerals will make it worse. I wouldn't change your trimming schedule.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I guess I will have to beg'n'beg my feed store to carry stuff for me to buy.

Is Copasure my only option for a copper bolus?
What does Replamin Plus have for a vitamin/mineral profile?
I read on a thread on another forum about Replamin. The results were gorgeous! 

Zinc affects the hardness of the hoof, right?
They have some flaky skin too.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

GroundGoats said:


> I guess I will have to beg'n'beg my feed store to carry stuff for me to buy.
> 
> Is Copasure my only option for a copper bolus?
> What does Replamin Plus have for a vitamin/mineral profile?
> ...


I bought my boluses from UltraCruz supplements, I got a REALLY good deal on the boluses there. I got a selenium/vit E gel from UltraCruz as well, I have found their supplements are the best, and they dont cost much! But like we were talking on the other thread, if you cant get the onyx, Sweetlix meatmaker is your next option. You will see huge results on your herds overall health if they are on a good loose mineral, and they ar given mineral supplements. All that should clear up your mineral problems and your hoof problems!


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

GroundGoats said:


> I guess I will have to beg'n'beg my feed store to carry stuff for me to buy.
> 
> Is Copasure my only option for a copper bolus?
> What does Replamin Plus have for a vitamin/mineral profile?
> ...


Oh and you can just order the boluses and gels from ultracruz's website. But the loose mineral will have to be ordered through a feed store.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> Mix your kelp in with the mineral. I use Onyx and love it. But my area is very deficient in copper and selenium so I still have to supplement at least twice a year. Replamin Plus is another good supplement. My girls get 5 cc every other week.
> 
> Certainly the wetness in your area will cause foot problems but lack of minerals will make it worse. I wouldn't change your trimming schedule.





fishin816 said:


> Oh and you can just order the boluses and gels from ultracruz's website. But the loose mineral will have to be ordered through a feed store.


Awesome!
I hope my store carries Sweetlix already. 
Dunno why I've never asked.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

GroundGoats said:


> Awesome!
> I hope my store carries Sweetlix already.
> Dunno why I've never asked.


Some stores don't carry Sweetlix, so it might have it ordered. Oh and if you can't get Sweetlix, MannaPro is another good loose mineral. I would prefer Sweetlix but Mannapro is good if you cant get Sweetlix. Many stores carry regularly stock manna pro.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I tried MannaPro, they didn't really care for it. It's consumed about as much as the cheap, high salt stuff from the local feed store.

I have another question, what the best way to prevent udder edema in a first freshener? Like Pre-freshening nutrition wise? Any thoughts?


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

GroundGoats said:


> I tried MannaPro, they didn't really care for it. It's consumed about as much as the cheap, high salt stuff from the local feed store.
> 
> I have another question, what the best way to prevent udder edema in a first freshener? Like Pre-freshening nutrition wise? Any thoughts?


Ok then, Sweetlix Meatmaker is the way to go. My girls and boys love MannaPro more than ANYTHING!!! I dont know what is the matter with all these goats. Goats =crazy.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

fishin816 said:


> Ok then, Sweetlix Meatmaker is the way to go. My girls and boys love MannaPro more than ANYTHING!!! I dont know what is the matter with all these goats. Goats =crazy.


Mine love MannaPro too...If I gave them a weeks worth, they would probably eat it all in one day. LOL


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

LibertyHomesteadFarm said:


> Mine love MannaPro too...If I gave them a weeks worth, they would probably eat it all in one day. LOL


My goaties loved MannaPro as well, they chowed and chowed and chowed on it. Now that I found the cow mineral, they love it more and it has better stuff in it for them!


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

They're... Strange.
When they came here, if it didn't have molasses poured on it, they wouldn't eat it.
Then they wouldn't eat anything WITH molasses...
They wouldn't touch mineral blocks, wouldn't touch loose, stole the minerals from the cow blocks, then decided loose was better, but they don't like it anymore... I dunno.
I thought they would like the MannaPro.

They like change more than I do.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

GroundGoats said:


> They're... Strange.
> 
> When they came here, if it didn't have molasses poured on it, they wouldn't eat it.
> 
> ...


Yeah goaties are pretty strange! Then if they don't like molasses, they wont like Sweetlix. Thats why its called SWEETlix! It has all kinds of molasses in it...... Goats stump me sometimes


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

For copper boluses the best price I have found is valley vet. I get the big ones for cattle and their empty capsules and break them down. Its a lot of money at once bit worth it in the end. I'm not a pro but I agree it sounds like copper is the big issue. I had many of your issues when I first started and bought fixer up ers  and I saw a big difference in so much when goathiker told me to start doing copper....best advise ever!!!


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Jessica84 said:


> For copper boluses the best price I have found is valley vet. I get the big ones for cattle and their empty capsules and break them down. Its a lot of money at once bit worth it in the end. I'm not a pro but I agree it sounds like copper is the big issue. I had many of your issues when I first started and bought fixer up ers  and I saw a big difference in so much when goathiker told me to start doing copper....best advise ever!!!


I looked at valley vet and i didnt think the prices were great. Ultra cruz was $15 for 25 4g boluses. I bolused my whole herd with it. Jeffers and valley vet was like $20 for ONE 2g bolus! So i thought i got the best deal at ultracruz.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Jessica pays $0.12 a gram, Cade pays $0.15 a gram.
Ultra Cruz's website scares me... Soooooo many chemicals.
Seems like a huge, diversified conglomerate out to make boucou bucks.
How long have they been around?
Composure is a trusted brand, cheaper too.
I couldn't find Ultra Cruz Boluses that didn't have Selenium as well, but they might be great.
For the work, Ultra Cruz might be cheaper, but I read you don't have to actually bolus copper, you can add it to their feed over a couple days to get the desired dose.
Or even bolus half twice as often.
I guess.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

GroundGoats said:


> Jessica pays $0.12 a gram, Cade pays $0.15 a gram.
> Ultra Cruz's website scares me... Soooooo many chemicals.
> Seems like a huge, diversified conglomerate out to make boucou bucks.
> How long have they been around?
> ...


I think it is too expensive to buy a $50.00 for copper. I think UltraCruz is the best, and my herd does good on it. Many people like Copasure, i like UltraCruz


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I don't like copper and selenium in one bolus. I'd rather have the control. Not everyone needs the selenium at the same time they need copper. I have to copper bolus more often than BoSe so I would much rather have them separate.

The copper rods are really all the same thing. So you really aren't getting a different product, just under a different name.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

ksalvagno said:


> I don't like copper and selenium in one bolus. I'd rather have the control. Not everyone needs the selenium at the same time they need copper. I have to copper bolus more often than BoSe so I would much rather have them separate.
> 
> The copper rods are really all the same thing. So you really aren't getting a different product, just under a different name.


Oh and Karen, u seem to know about these supplements. Which is more effective, selenium and vit/e gel or a Bose?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

BoSe


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

ksalvagno said:


> BoSe


Ok well I gave my whole herd the gel, so do I need the vet to get me a bottle of BoSe next time? I am very selenium defecient here


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you are happy with the gel, then keep using the gel. You will probably have to do it more often. I BoSe my girls 2-3 times per year. I believe the gel they say to do monthly.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

ksalvagno said:


> If you are happy with the gel, then keep using the gel. You will probably have to do it more often. I BoSe my girls 2-3 times per year. I believe the gel they say to do monthly.


It was only like a week ago, so I havent really seen any difference. Wouldnt it be excessive giving the gel every month? I will just have our vet get us a bottle of BoSe


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Isn't that what they say on the label? Never bought it before. Because it is given orally, it would be processed different and probably doesn't stay in their system as long.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Yes, the gel is 1x per month.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Yes, the gel is 1x per month.


I think that would get excessive......


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Like Karen said, it probably leaves their system much faster when it's given orally. Injections absorb into the tissues and can be released gradually.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

BoSe is 1mg/1mL or 1000ppm.
Selenium/Vit. E paste is 2.5ppm/5mL or 0.0125mg/5mL.
You'd have to give 80 doses to equal 1mL shot of BoSe.

1000/2.5=400(mL of paste)
400/5=80(whole doses)
80x0.0125=1(mg of selenium in total)

This is what I think about the two choices.
BoSe is harder to get, probably costs more initially. It has a faster mode of action. Obviously less doses per year are needed, but needles and syringes need to be accounted for as well as the size of your herd and whether or not you're expecting to make a profit from kid sales/milk sales. It's the best option with severely deficient animals. It's way easier to over dose. The paste may be easier to give, you can give it more routinely, you have to worry less about exact doses, which is convenient if you don't actually use a scale to weigh your goats. But I don't think it would save any lives. I did use it for mild WMD just recently, but in conjunction with MegaSel.

What's the thought on MegaSel anyway? I feel like it's got a high carbohydrate count. I chose it cuz I couldn't get NutriDrench and to do was so low on the gel. Plus it mixes easy with the milk for a bottle and got her more interested in nursing.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm happy sticking with the Sel/E gel. I've never had any symptoms of deficiency but we are low in selenium here, so I give it just in case.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Remember, they will eat lots of mineral at times and then not touch it for a while.Mine just went through a phase of devouring it and now they are slowing down.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

GroundGoats said:


> BoSe is 1mg/1mL or 1000ppm.
> 
> Selenium/Vit. E paste is 2.5ppm/5mL or 0.0125mg/5mL.
> 
> ...


The selenium the gel contains is natural and organic. So the goats absorb ot very well. Thats why there isnt much selenium in it.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Injected selenium is definitely absorbed faster and more readily used.
All selenium is natural and organic.
It's an unsynthesizable mineral since it's a basic element.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

GroundGoats said:


> Injected selenium is definitely absorbed faster and more readily used.
> 
> All selenium is natural and organic.
> 
> It's an unsynthesizable mineral since it's a basic element.


Ok since everyone seems to prefer the BoSe I will see if the vet will get me a bottle of it.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I've never used it, so I have no preference. 
I guess I need to repost my questions again.

:sleeping:


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

How often do people copper bolus? Does copper actually have to be bolused?
How much and often do people do BoSe shots? Thanks to Karen S. for your info!
How do people feel about MegaSel?
Even though I live in a wet area, should I incorporate a foot bath? Like copper or zinc sulfate?
Whats the best way to feed to lessen udder edema in first fresheners? I heard that increased pressure from fluid can affect the amount of mammary tissue created once milk production starts, which is not very productive. Does anyone think excess salt can cause udder edema?
And what about feeding a pellet/grain only diet? What about pellet/grain with alfalfa or alfalfa/timothy cubes instead of hay for roughage?
How should I go about getting good hay?
I can get the same hay as the current President of the ADGA, so is that a good bet?
I bought some round bales, but thought they were dusty, should I ask if they can do squares?
And should I ask for 1st, 2nd or 3rd cutting hay?
What should I ask about the planting or management of the fields?
How much space does a goat need to thrive, not just survive, without giving them each 100 acres?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You have to figure out the number of times per year for your goats. It can be done anywhere from none to about 4 times per year. It really depends on how deficient your area is. Yes the copper needs to be given orally. I have never heard of MegaSel so can't help you there.

Goats absolutely need the long stem roughage from hay. I like 2nd or 3rd cutting alfalfa/grass mix but you have to buy what you can find. I would hope the president of ADGA is buying quality hay so that may be a good bet. I have no experience with round bales since I only buy small square bales.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Can rough chopped, pressed cubes replace a portion of the hay? About 1/3?
They have tough stems, 4" to about 1/2" long pieces approximately when broken up. 

I like that it is quality controlled, less dusty and there is less chance of noxious weeds (hopefully). I know it's quality alfalfa/Timothy and don't have to hope the alfalfa planted in the field 15+ years ago hasn't been choked out and gone unnoticed.
Plus my goats will take them on the stand instead of grain.
Which is nice. And can still be done regardless.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It could probably replace a portion but not sure how much.

You still may need to use grain on the stand to help with milk production and maintaining body condition.


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

GroundGoats said:


> How often do people copper bolus? Does copper actually have to be bolused?
> How much and often do people do BoSe shots? Thanks to Karen S. for your info!
> How do people feel about MegaSel?
> Even though I live in a wet area, should I incorporate a foot bath? Like copper or zinc sulfate?
> ...


I only copper bolus once a year. The reason being, Southern Illinois isnt defecient and my mineral contains a lot of copper. I believe that most of their copper should come from their loose minerals. But it is good to bolus every once in a while.


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

Living in Southern MD I've already had to bolus twice in a 5 month span. I leave out loose mineral, but that still hasn't been enough. 

How often you should bolus depends on how deficient your area is. I'm learning to just play the bolusing by how my herd looks. Apparently my area is worse than my research led me to believe.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> It could probably replace a portion but not sure how much.
> 
> You still may need to use grain on the stand to help with milk production and maintaining body condition.


I use grain on the stand when milking and on days I trim they get it individually on the stand, but I have a couple does that get fat real easy and WOLF down their grain. I mean inhale. Literally. So the cubes help to occupy them and keep them happy while we finish trimming, cuz without food their real bears.
Any normal day they get it as a group and do fine, especially since I have one doe separated with her kids. 
Fine except for copper


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## fishin816 (Mar 4, 2011)

GroundGoats said:


> I use grain on the stand when milking and on days I trim they get it individually on the stand, but I have a couple does that get fat real easy and WOLF down their grain. I mean inhale. Literally. So the cubes help to occupy them and keep them happy while we finish trimming, cuz without food their real bears.
> 
> Any normal day they get it as a group and do fine, especially since I have one doe separated with her kids.
> 
> Fine except for copper


What pellet feed do you use?


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

GroundGoats said:


> Can rough chopped, pressed cubes replace a portion of the hay? About 1/3?
> They have tough stems, 4" to about 1/2" long pieces approximately when broken up.
> 
> I like that it is quality controlled, less dusty and there is less chance of noxious weeds (hopefully). I know it's quality alfalfa/Timothy and don't have to hope the alfalfa planted in the field 15+ years ago hasn't been choked out and gone unnoticed.
> ...


I don't know about the cubes, but you can substitute alfalfa pellets for up to 50% of a goats hay ration. I've never done the 50% substitution, but I have substituted 2 lbs of pellets for 2 lbs of hay with excellent results. Obviously the pellets are more pricey than the hay, but there is 0 waste feeding them.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I feed Poulin Grain 18% Sweet Dairy Goat mixed with BOSS, Oats and alfalfa pellets for a 14% protein ration. 

GoatCrazy thanks, I could probably substitute up to 30% fine then, it's pretty much just chopped, pressed hay. 
I hope to buy better hay next year. I just don't know too much about buying hay I guess, lol. We just get all the hay one family produces from down the road for the cows, and they feed it to their 3 goats, but I'm not so sure about it I guess.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

No problem!


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

ciwheeles said:


> Living in Southern MD I've already had to bolus twice in a 5 month span. I leave out loose mineral, but that still hasn't been enough.
> 
> How often you should bolus depends on how deficient your area is. I'm learning to just play the bolusing by how my herd looks. Apparently my area is worse than my research led me to believe.


I think my area is super deficient. I just heard from 2 other people in my area with goats that they haven't had a breeding take in 2 years.  
Well fed goats with loose minerals.
And I brought my buck, who's now proven lol, over to breed a friend's Pygmy, she didn't take either, and her Nubian has been in milk for 2+ years and I guess didn't settle last year so they just milked through.
I didn't have any breedings take last year at all, fed out way more minerals than before and had better luck for this season, but I'm still having some issues.
I think I'm on the right track though, especially with the good advice I get from folks here!


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