# Polled Goats



## HobbyFarm (Oct 13, 2016)

What is the benefit of having a poll goat vs. non-pulled. I do not want horns and I know we can de-horn them. Can you breed two polled goats so you don't have to worry about dis-budding them? I do not know anything about this I always thought that all goats where born with horns.


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

When showing goats disbudded or polled may be a requirement, some people just find horns can pose problems -lots of debates out there on this!

I did find this handy chart online which explains how the trait can carry forward. I myself have both polled and horned. Personally I would not care to disbud.

A note on polled genetics - to see which combinations makes polled or horned kids check out this chart.
Horned (pp) X Horned (pp) = 100%* horned (pp) offspring.
Polled (Pp) X Horned (pp) =*50% polled (Pp), 0%*horned(pp)*offspring.
Polled (Pp) X Polled (Pp) =* 25% polled (PP), 50% polled (Pp), 25% horned (pp) offspring
Homozygous polled (PP) X Horned (pp) = All polled (Pp) offspring.
Homozygous polled (PP) X Homozygous Polled (PP) = All homozygous polled (PP) offspring.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

DON'T breed polled to polled that creates hermaphrodites which means the offspring cant breed because it has both male and female parts.


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## HobbyFarm (Oct 13, 2016)

Thank you I was not aware of that


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

Actually I think that is a bit of an old wives tale, I'm not sure if there is any real scientific evidence of that -I have been breeding poll to poll and never had an issue in 5 years....maybe others can weigh in if they have ever seen a hermie from them...


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Redbarngoatfarm said:


> Actually I think that is a bit of an old wives tale, I'm not sure if there is any real scientific evidence of that -I have been breeding poll to poll and never had an issue in 5 years....maybe others can weigh in if they have ever seen a hermie from them...


maybe it is but its better safe than sorry! :smile:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Every one of the several hermaphrodite goats I've seen have been horned. I've never even seen a polled one before.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

What is Homozygous polled?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Homozygous means that both their parents were polled so they have two copies of the polled gene.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

JK_Farms said:


> DON'T breed polled to polled that creates hermaphrodites which means the offspring cant breed because it has both male and female parts.


Its an old wives tale. I know of two true herms and they both have horns, and had horned parents.

I breed polled to polled as do a few others I know without issues.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok it says polled to a Horner is 50% polled 0% horned, mistake? 
I bought a polled doe so I'm curious. From what I understand when just peeking at polled topics before was as long as one parent is polled the kids have a 50% chance of being polled. The chance will always be 50% no matter how many times you keep breeding back to a horned animal. Am I correct In this thinking?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

There is a "super polled" gene. I'm guessing g that's the one your looking at.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

A homozygous polled goat will never throw and horned kid even when bred to a horned mate. It takes two horned genes to make horns and the homozygous goat doesn't carry a horned gene to pass down to the kids. 
Polled is dominant.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

There is apparently an intersex gene linked to the polled gene. Breeding polled x polled is thought to give you a higher chance of producing an intersex kid. I used to think it was nonsense and I'm still not sure if it only occurs in some bloodlines as there are some that claim they've been breeding polled x polled for years with no intersex kids. However, this year I have heard of several breeders with intersex kids from polled x polled matings so...I'm starting to believe it. 

There is no issue breeding polled x horned though. That will give you a 50/50 shot at horned or polled kids. 

While I really like having the option for polled kids, this year I found it a bit frustrating when it came time to do a round of disbuddings as some of my kids with a polled parent looked polled, had all the signs, no buds, no swirls, etc. but actually ended up sprouting horn buds later and being disbudded late. I'm no newbie to polled goats and thought it was a piece of cake determining if a kid was polled, but this year really threw me off on some. They looked polled, but were not. So I ended up having to continually check all my polled kids to make sure they were actually polled and not tricking me. I think it would have been easier to just have horned kids and not have to deal with the waiting.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

The only hermie I have ever had born to my herd was born from a horned to horned breeding, and she, in turn, had horns. Not a bit of polled genetics in her background.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

goathiker said:


> A homozygous polled goat will never throw and horned kid even when bred to a horned mate. It takes two horned genes to make horns and the homozygous goat doesn't carry a horned gene to pass down to the kids.
> Polled is dominant.


So with my polled doe she will have polled kids not just a 50% chance?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It depends on if she has one polled gene or two. There are so many variables. 
Say both her parents were polled but each had a horned parent, there's a 25 percent chance that she is homozygous for polled.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I think this covers the options... (and now I see RedBarnGoatFarm already posted it...sorry for the duplication!!!)

I would guess most breedings are Heterozygous Polled (Pp) to horned (pp)

Google "Mendelian Square," and it might help you understand the basic genetics to it.

Heterogzygous polled (Pp) x Horned (pp)
Pp = 50% (Heterozygous polled)
pp = 50% (Horned, NO polled gene)

Heterozygous polled (Pp) x Heterozygous polled (Pp)
PP = 25% (Homozygous polled)
Pp = 50% (Heterozygous polled)
pp = 25% (Horned, NO polled gene)

Homozygous polled (PP) x Horned (pp)
Pp=100% (Heterozygous polled)

Homozygous polled (PP) x Heterozygous polled (Pp)
PP = 50% (Homozygous polled)
Pp = 50% (Heterozygous polled)

Homozygous polled (PP) x Homozygous polled (PP)
PP = 100% Homozygous polled


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

As you can imagine its a lot easier to figure out if a buck is Homozygous polled than a doe! I think the only way to tell for sure is test breedings to horned animals. Eventually you'll get a horned offspring or you won't.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok her sire for sure was horned. I'll look her up and see what was on the dams side. But this is still very interesting! I figured there was a chance of her having horned kids I didn't know there was more to it then just a 50/50 chance


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

Agree with the polled to polled breeding. I breed polled to polled, never had an issue. My old herd sire was from a polled to polled breeding and was fine. I however had an issues with a buckling from a polled/horned breeding this pat spring. Our vet does not feel it is genetic, just a fluke.


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## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

I did not know that I had always just heard not to do the polled to polled breeding but that is very interesting!


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## teemogoat (Mar 14, 2016)

Looking at the chart, a horned dam and sire would never produce a polled kid. Is that correct? I've saw some for sale where both parents have horns, but they are polled.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Yes, that is correct. A polled kid can accidentally be disbudded at birth if the breeder doesn't realize the kid is polled.


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## teemogoat (Mar 14, 2016)

Is there no possible way that two horned would have a polled? I don't think they were disbudded.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

There is no possible way that 2 horned goats can have a polled.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Redbarngoatfarm said:


> Actually I think that is a bit of an old wives tale, I'm not sure if there is any real scientific evidence of that -I have been breeding poll to poll and never had an issue in 5 years....maybe others can weigh in if they have ever seen a hermie from them...


It has been proven that breeding polled to polled you have a higher chance at getting a hermaphrodite. I did a project on it once but I can't remember it exactly


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Goatzrule said:


> It has been proven that breeding polled to polled you have a higher chance at getting a hermaphrodite. I did a project on it once but I can't remember it exactly


Because I have read so much scientific and breeding records and information to the contrary I'd love to see what data you based that project on.

All I could find to support it was a paper written like in the 40's? And no supporting factual evidence.

I cannot find anything to actually support that breeding polled to polled causes any genetic abnormalities.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

I will have to dig it up. It was a good article a little confusing but made a lot of sense. Basically hermaphrodites is more common through polled to polled breeding or polled to none polled, although a breeder may never see it in their own herd, it is more common then two none polled. I can't remember exactly but there is like a protein or something that links the horn growth to the sex of the kid. Which is why bucks tend to grow bigger horns or scurs then does. But I will have to find the rest of the article


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

Dayna said:


> Because I have read so much scientific and breeding records and information to the contrary I'd love to see what data you based that project on.
> 
> All I could find to support it was a paper written like in the 40's? And no supporting factual evidence.
> 
> I cannot find anything to actually support that breeding polled to polled causes any genetic abnormalities.


I have to agree here, I've read and seen a lot of goats (both parents polled) that prove the contrary too...
I do know that if you look at some lines, then yes, it is more common, but overall, I found it to be not true.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Like i stated above most breeders may never see it in their herds. It is extremely uncommon but happens with the result of polled to polled, I have only seen one herme ever our judge called it out during a show He/she was from polled parents. the judge (his name was Dick...cant remember his last name) was the first hes ever seen.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

It is indeed very uncommon, but I haven't found that it is linked scientifically to the polled gene. I had a hermie (purchased) that was from 2 horned parents. Never occurred before in this pairing, and has not occurred since. Just my experience.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

One of the articles is from the 40s the other 60s
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1209274/pdf/51.pdf
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/the%20pittmans/My%20Documents/Downloads/polledgoatshermaphrodites1964SOLLER13942.pdf
Its funny everything ive looked up has talked about polled to polled causing hermaphrodites


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Do you have anything more current though? I've read both of those, but I've also read more recent articles written by breeders showing no increase in herms from a polled to polled breeding. 

I believe the original article was from generation after generation of inbreeding that was ultimately found to have caused the herms.

I have only had/have one herm and it is a horned goat from a horned to horned breeding. She is a stout girl, with a vulva that if you look in it, there is a penile type thing. She's never gotten pregnant, has more male horns and mounts my other females.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

I will have to keep looking for the one I had. It was maybe one or two years i ago


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

I have three books that discusse it. I'll source them
Goatkeeping 101 caprine supply, Storey's guide to raising dairy goats, and The goatkeepers veterinary book, it is also in The goat source book The university of Ohio extension.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

On the first picture, they already have some incorrect information.

"If either parents is horned the offspring will also be horned" It takes two "p" genes to create a horned kid.

And the third picture is also incorrect. There are plenty of P (homozygous) does.... I have one and she is very much not a herm and produces very well.

I have found a lot of these goat raising books to hold a lot of incorrect information as many are not even written by folks who have goats, but that glean the internet for information, regurg it and print it. I know this because I know, personally, a writer who writes livestock care books and writes them about livestock that she does not have, nor has ever owned. She asks folks for information and uses google.


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