# Skinny, anemic, runny stools



## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I have 5 does that are starting to lose weight rather rapidly. Two of which had very runny stools. Four of them are in the slightly pink category on the famancha scale and the fifth is maybe a bit lower. So far I've dosed all five with ivermectin sheep drench and have given the two with runny stools some pro-bio. The two with the runny stools were wormed yesterday, and from what I can see this morning, their poo is starting to thicken up some.

My herd has a history of barber pole worm, last year all the kids had it, this year it seems the does do. So until I can get a stool sample in on Tuesday, that's what I'm thinking I'm dealing with (symptoms are the exact same). Maybe some high cocidia? Though I've never had high levels previously. 

Seems like for some reason it's this time of the year that they just overload on these worms, the kids starting this last year, almost the same week.

Other than what I've done so far, is there anything else I can give them? All I really have on hand right now (until noon when the stores open. my medicine cabinet is embarrassing empty now that I'm trying to find stuff...how did it get so low?!:tears is wormer and vitamin b complex. 

I wasn't sure if I should give them the complex? Though it probably wouldn't hurt....? All five still have a good appetite and are currently out foraging in the pasture, even though they have a full alfalfa trough.

Going to try and convince the vet to give me some b-cell on Tuesday, hopefully everyone starts to get a bit better by then though. 

Only one of them appears to be in the really not feeling well stage, she still goes out and eat with everyone but when she's standing at rest she has that slightly hunched sad look.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would give them all B Complex and Probios.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

According to our Ag college up here in Maine, July and August are the worst months for baberpole worm up here. I think it is because of the heat and humidity we get during those months. I was enrolled in a program to study herd worm issues and sure enough-hardly any worm load until late July and suddenly WHAM!!!!! the FEC on baberpole flew right off the charts! I used Dectomax, which worked great on them.

I use injectable iron when mine get anemic. For my herd, it helps them much faster than giving iron orally.

B complex and probiotics would be a good support for them.

Maybe ivermectin is not working as well in your area anymore?


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

ksalvagno said:


> I would give them all B Complex and Probios.


 Gave them each 5 cc of the B Complex injected and the probios, they all looked visibly better in about 20 min...extra spring in their step. Here's hoping!



lottsagoats1 said:


> According to our Ag college up here in Maine, July and August are the worst months for baberpole worm up here. I think it is because of the heat and humidity we get during those months. I was enrolled in a program to study herd worm issues and sure enough-hardly any worm load until late July and suddenly WHAM!!!!! the FEC on baberpole flew right off the charts! I used Dectomax, which worked great on them.
> 
> I use injectable iron when mine get anemic. For my herd, it helps them much faster than giving iron orally.
> 
> ...


 That would make sense, on why it suddenly hits this time of the year. It's been in the 90-100's, very humid, and then gets cold at night.

I haven't wormed anybody since April, right before they were going to kid. So I think/hope it's still working, I guess Ill see with the stool sample. When I was doing my walk-about in their pen this evening, I couldn't see any fresh runny stools, just a couple of the....more solid blob?:eyeroll: I think everything's now starting to take effect.

Is this injectable iron something one can get at say TSC or something? Or is it something I would need to grab at the vet also?


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Finally broke down and bought a microscope to do my own fecals (much more frequenty).


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I found some injectable iron at TSC, should I be giving that and the b complex to her daily? I gave her the b complex again the next day, just bought the iron this morning.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes..you can use the injectable 
4 cc per 100# sub q..once a day for a week then once a week until color improves. Do not use with any other iron supplement. ..like red cell. Always choose one or the other. .daily b complex is a great support


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

And don't fail to repeat the does of Ivermectin Sheep Drench on ALL of the does in 10 days (give or take) to kill the next hatch or else all your supportive care will have been in vain! Don't skip it even if they are looking great!


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

SalteyLove said:


> And don't fail to repeat the does of Ivermectin Sheep Drench on ALL of the does in 10 days (give or take) to kill the next hatch or else all your supportive care will have been in vain! Don't skip it even if they are looking great!


 My downfall. I noticed that big no no looking over my medical records for the two does in question. I know that too, not sure why I haven't kept up with it. I'm guessing "oh they look great, guess their good now" then forget all about it. :shock:

Exhibit A:


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Looking at the records, it's almost like clockwork when it starts to show up again...due to not following up 10 days later. Shame shame shame


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Lol...its a learning curve....


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

So tonight when I went to give the girls their round of shots and pro bios, I noticed on the worst one that her eyelids are almost white now and that she has watery stools again. I wormed her again, in addition to the iron sup, probios, and b-complex. I wasn't able to get a stool sample in this week, but I did get the microscope and supplies to do my own. Making a saturaded solution as we speak. Anything else I can or should do for her?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Rumen bolus.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I just can't catch a break! Today I get home to see this forming under her jaw















Now what.....


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

bottle jaw...remind me if you are worming and with what? how much... what do her lower inner lids look like? you want to se deep pink to red...


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

The ivermectin sheep drench, 15 cc. She was wormed on 9/6, then again on 9/11, and is due again on 9/16 for her 10 day dose from the 6th. Her eyelids are white with just a very very slight pink. I've been giving her pro bios 10cc, fortified b-complex 6cc, and this iron supplement 6 cc. daily since 9/6. Should I maybe switch to red cell iron, instead for an iron supplement? I just haven't seen a change in the color of her eyelids, if anything I think they've gotten more pale.

She has seemed to put on a hair more weight, but just slight, and her stools are back to a blob instead of water...but she has this odd expression which I'm not sure if its the bottle jaw or a lack of something? At night she and one of the other original sick does are locked inside with one light on, with water and a fresh bale of alfalfa, during the day she goes back with the rest and has access to both the pasture and what remains of that bale.

They also have 24/7 access to mineral from 3 different locations.....she was last copper bloused 8/2.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Just for comparison, this is what she normally looks likes, I know it's not real visible how horrible she looks from the head shot photo, but she's just half of herself already. :-(









Should I maybe be worming on a daily basis? And also just to clarify, they no longer eat hay where they can stand on it like in the above photo, haven't been able to since shortly after this photo...which is from last year around this time.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)




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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok..so she is being wormed a lot, daily is def. not a good idea, it will tax her system....we usually wait 10 days between doses...this is to get the different stages of worm as they mature. Barpole and Liver fluke are the two that give bottle jaw...Ivomec sheep drench should have been successful on the barpole but not the liver fluke...so you maybe treating with the wrong wormer...if she were mine, I would wait a week from her last dose of ivomec and dose her with Valbazen, as long as she is not pregnant...1 cc per 10# orally...then wait ten days and dose again...I would put her on red cell once daily for a week then once weekly until color improves ...continue with alfalfa, lots of browse foods and daily Probiotics and injected B complex..as a support...mix 50/50 ACV and water and drench 30 cc once daily to help speed recovery...both bottle jaw and anemia have slow recovery time..so be patient


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I think I know the answer to this but just going to make sure, would panacure be comparable? I ask because I have that on hand, (I see it lists stomach worms...but liver fluke isn't listed) not sure if I can get Valbazen in town, will check tomorrow and if not order it from Jeffers.

Should I switch to the red cell instead of the pig one I'm using too?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You are correct..it is not the same...Valbazen and Ivomec plus are the only two that kill liver fluke..I order from Jeffers and get it pretty quick...since she was last wormed on the 11th, you have time to order perhaps...I would not do the next planned worming on the 16th...wait to get valbazen...you can also choose ivomec plus, but since she was already on the ivomec sheep drench Im thinking a different type of wormer is needed. She has lost a ton of weight but once you have the worm issue cleaned up..she will gain it back. Digest 911 or angel Maker would be a good thing to add to her daily minerals..remember to treat her rumen daily..always 3-4 hours after any wormer or antibiotic...the last thing you want is her rumen to shut down ....
although injectable iron does work faster..I like red cell..it offers a bit more then just iron...and its oral lol..be sure to dose proper either way..red cell is 6 cc per 100# and injected pig iron is 4 cc per 100# sub Q...

I would normally say use the valbazen as soon as you get it...but since she has had so much wormer already, Im afraid to tax her system with more too soon...this is why I suggest wait five days..


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Jeffers won't get it in themselves until the 18th it says, so I'm going to get it from valley vet. Would the power pak be something similar to the digest 911 and angel maker. Would like to order from the same place if I can and i'm finding that the digest 911 is out of stock in the places I've checked.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Scratch that, they're out too.....getting it from premier.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

its alittle different...the power pak looks like a mineral mix of sorts..more like the replamin gel

digest 911 has LIVE YEAST CULTURE 50 Billion cells CHOLINE 1000 mg PANTOTHENIC ACID 150 mg RIBOFLAVIN 100 mg THIAMINE 60 mg PYRIDOXINE 25 mg FOLIC ACID 20 mg BIOTIN 1 mg VITAMIN B-12 200 mcg

Angel maker has Ground red raspberry leaves, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Longum Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Do you know of someplace that might have it? Everywhere I checked says it is out of stock....

Thank you so much for all the help too! :-D


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

did you try AFCO Distribution..they are the main sellers of this product...feed stores who carry it buy from them i believe...you have to sign up to see prices and such..I order from farm store and I notice they are out of stock as well..another place to look is Amazon..got my first bag off there lol..Angel maker might be easier to find..and although looks more pricy, you use alot less


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

It is not uncommon for anemia and therefore bottle jaw to get worse while treating parasites. You are killing parasites which are dropping off the stomach walls and leaving holes that bleed and cause further anemia. This is a very common occurrence. 

I agree with Cathy's advice, just wanted to let you know why it seems like she is "getting worse" - don't worry - you've got this!!!


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

So good news, that lump is visibly gone already? You can still kind of feel a soft squishy lump in there but you can't see it. She's still on the skinny side, but I think she's still putting on some weight...though not a whole lot. Most of the girls all came in heat last night (they all seem to within the same week oddly) so she probably wont put on much this week either now.

Ill try and get some pictures of her tonight, just to see what everyone thinks but I wonder if I will be ok to have her bred this year? I don't plan on turning the buck out until Halloween (easy date to remember lol, then I can get close to Easter babies), so she has another month of fattening up to do. Going to start graining them some to flush them also, starting tonight. 

It wouldn't be the end of the world if she doesn't get bred, she's pro-rated herself for a year or two. Last year she had quads, this year triplets...poor girl.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Just another update, lump is now officially gone, I can't feel it there at all anymore. She is still not really putting on weight though, still has pale eyelids, her stools are also starting to get less firm again. Going to start separating her completely again at night I think, I had let her back with everyone else and I don't think the queens are letting her eat her fill.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

It takes time to regain weight....daily b and probios would be a good idea...is there a younger doe that can be penned with her as a companion. ..i think its good she is seperate from the others until she stablizes...


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Still in the frustratingly skinny phase, I've been separating her and my timid doe Mabel (with the kids before Mabel came back home). They get free access to alfalfa and a nice scoop of oats, then back in the pasture in the morning but she is still just a walking bag of bones. The lump never came back at least. Just feel so bad for her.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Have you done a fecal analysis recently to make sure she has low counts? Has her FAMACHA improved at all?

If the parasite egg count is still fairly high you may consider pulling her off the pasture completely as she is obviously reinfecting herself quickly.

Sorry you are struggling with her!


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Ill take a fecal in again, I'll try with my microscope too (I just haven't had a chance to really play with it, I'm still on the making the salt water solution step). Her eyelids are still pale, and she does still have a tired...droopy look in her face, not sure how to describe it.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Do you use any oil like safflower oil or rice bran oil?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

or olive oil, coconut oil..these and ^^ help put some weight on...how is she other wise?..you want to focus mostly on the look of health...shiny coat, bright eyes.alert..pooping berries, eating and drinking...weight will follow but it takes time...the oil might give just a nice boost...

were you able to find Digest 911 or Angel maker??


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

ksalvagno said:


> Do you use any oil like safflower oil or rice bran oil?


 I have not, is this just like the stuff one would get from the grocery store?



happybleats said:


> or olive oil, coconut oil..these and ^^ help put some weight on...how is she other wise?..you want to focus mostly on the look of health...shiny coat, bright eyes.alert..pooping berries, eating and drinking...weight will follow but it takes time...the oil might give just a nice boost...
> 
> were you able to find Digest 911 or Angel maker??


 Her coat is somewhat shiny, but it's got that haggard look and is starting to feel wirey...though they have two full mineral feeders, she is due for a copper bolus in three weeks maybe she should get it sooner.

Her eyes still have that ..dumb? droopy look, I don't know if you remember that doeling I posted about this summer with the big swollen head and her tongue sticking out (ill try to find the thread) but it's almost the same expression, oddly enough, that doeling is her daughter. Starting to think her and her offspring aren't the most hardy, even though she's always had triplets or quads.

She is also starting to get the lump jaw back, I seen it starting again last night. Time for another round of the valbazine?

I did find the angel maker from here .


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Here is that thread http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/swollen-head-179700/index2.html that's actually her pictured with her doeling.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

OH Ok...I remember that little doe....so instead of me re reading everything done so far lol :book:...
I would keep her on daily B complex (4 cc per 100#)
Daily Probios and I would go ahead and do copper. 
re worm at least 10 days after the last dose..I would then have a fecal done a week after her next wormer dose to be sure its doing the job. 

Keep with anemia treatment if there is still a need. 

Once she is well you may need to consider taking her to sell....As hard as it is do that, I have learned a herd is only as strong as the weakest one. A wormy goat spreads worms...eliminating her from the herd may be your best call. :-(


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Still not seeing much improvement, I think the weather is getting to her, we've been having cold rainy days all week. I have her in her own stall in the barn now, so unlimited access to alfalfa and then I've been giving her oats with the angel maker. 

With the oil, how much should I give her and is it just something you would get at a grocery store? I haven't been doing that.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if she can have a buddy with her it might help her spirits.... yes, you get the oil from the grocery store...a tablespoon of oil would be plenty...... Might add some calf manna...make changes slow...of course if she is still runny..no grain at all until she dries up back to berries...

best wishes


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I'd give her a buddy but she has just assumed such a docile position that even the little ones push her around (who then proceed to just gobble everything up) and the pen isn't large enough to put one of the llamas in with her. So where she's at now she has contact through the gate. She didn't seem to mind too much, she never let out a peep. She just nibbled at the oats a bit then went for the alfalfa.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

happybleats said:


> Once she is well you may need to consider taking her to sell....As hard as it is do that, I have learned a herd is only as strong as the weakest one. A wormy goat spreads worms...eliminating her from the herd may be your best call. :-(


Just noticed in the similar topic spot, while replying, that this isn't my first thread for her regarding worm related issues. The same time frame too....

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f186/runny-stools-graphic-172112/index2.html

She's going to have to go down the road I'm afraid too. I just haven't had this kind of recurring problem with anyone else.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

she sounds like such a sad little thing. Sometimes they just are not thrivers..might make a pet for some one.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

She really does just look horrible, stands hunched up, like one of the animals you would see in one of those sad commercials.  Just kills me she's gone this far down hill. Though she did seem to have a more full tummy last night, it wasn't that complete sunken in look.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

sometimes even our best efforts just don't cut it, but you sure are giving it your best and her a chance...could be she had previous worm damage preventing her from fully absorbing nutrients.
Hunched look is usually tummy pain. hows her rumen function today? temp? have you checked her lower inner lids lately?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Lstein - any progress?

I always hate to accept that some individuals just have failure to thrive - I always think I can diagnose and treat them!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I was just about to ask the same thing Salty lol...^^^


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

About the same really, she may be gaining some but its hardly noticeable. She's with the babies full time now, and they get spoiled a bit more so she is benefiting that way. They aren't as aggressive as the others does yet either so that helps.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I just put her down. :blue:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

very sorry....you did so much for her...sometimes we have to make that hard choice...I sure hate that ((HUGS))


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

She was sprawled out on the ground and almost gone, when I got home so I ended her suffering quicker. poor girl


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Poor baby....You did the right thing


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