# Removing Wattles



## Cadence (Jul 20, 2013)

Today one of my quad doelings went to her new home (picture included).

The first thing to people ask me (much to my horror) was "Can we cut the wattles off"

Once I stopped panicking I asked why they would want to do this...

They told me that their 4H leader tells them that judges will place a goat with wattles lower in the show ring. 

PLEASE tell me NO ONE is propagating this for ADGA dairy goats (sorry other associations, I can't speak for you).

There is not a single ADGA judge who would put a structurally correct doe with wattles over a less correct doe without them. It just doesn't happen - it should not be happening. "Wattles" is not even on the scorecard!
Please don't remove wattles because you think it makes them place better in the show ring. 


And please don't make that the first question you ask a breeder when taking one of her very precious AI kids


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Aww, she's a beauty. I love my wattled girls.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh no no no, she doesn't need that done at all. The waddles are part of their cooling system. Goats that have them stay 10% cooler than goats without them.


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## LaurieW (Sep 24, 2013)

Sure hope they do not get lower scores. :-(
We don't plan to show either of these does, but the kids of the palomino we might.

Bright Eyes Profile (Dairy Mix - Nubian & La Ma.) by LaurieESW, on Flickr


Cinnamon wants a closer look @ the puppy by LaurieESW, on Flickr


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I have never seen a judge prejudiced against wattles, not ever.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I love wattles...I have lamancha and Saanen with wattles..

Please tell me you set them straight...or didnt let them take that cutie!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I have never seen a judge even look at or consider wattles when judging. Way more interested in conformation and udder.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

LOL thats the craziest thing I have ever heard  Sounds like someone was using the waddles for a "scape goat" hehe

On a side note you can do it but you are going to need to shave the area, disinfect it, snip the waddles off and then put a few stitches in.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I personally like waddles, I think they are cute I'm not into show, but I hope they wouldn't judge against them. I had a family come to my farm as they are interested in one of the triplets, and she asked about waddles getting infected.. I've never had an issue
with that.. so that is what I told them.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Waddles can get/have what are called waddle cysts and can have them their entire life. They just slowly leak fluid. But its not an infection.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> Waddles can get/have what are called waddle cysts and can have them their entire life. They just slowly leak fluid. But its not an infection.


Is that rare? Just curious, because I've never had a problem, but my kinder buck has them and is passing them off to his kids.


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## Cadence (Jul 20, 2013)

We have had wattles cysts before - but they are high up on the neck so even if these people had cut the wattles off, the cyst would still exist. We had a whole line of toggs who were born with them. It isn't that common, just occasional and it hasn't hurt them in anyway this far.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

love that girl, especially b/c she has wattles.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Our Kiko mix was born with ONE wattle. Someone suggested cutting it off! I refused....I think it adds to her "character". LOL I've seen goats at shows go to the bottom of the class for stupid reasons such as color (one judge ONLY placed red headed traditional boers) but never for wattles....


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

Just tell them to look at the previous National Champs and Reserve Champs. You will see plenty of goats that were _National Champions_ with wattles  I've heard people say that same thing before too and I think they just get that because their goat with wattles happened to place lower than they wanted and they just use the wattles as an excuse as to why the goat placed low.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I think there was even a reserve or champion Nubian at one of the National shows that had wattles.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Or tell them to find a goat without wattles and buy that one.

Poor goatie


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Waddles can get/have what are called waddle cysts and can have them their entire life. They just slowly leak fluid. But its not an infection.





> We have had wattles cysts before - but they are high up on the neck so even if these people had cut the wattles off, the cyst would still exist.


Cadence is correct, even if you snip them off which is cruel, they can still have the cyst. out of my almost 9 years Ive only had one buck born who has a cyst.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I once had a doeling born with wattles on her ears- They looked like earings! She did ok in her 4-H class a few years back. Not great because the girl that had her didn't 
work with her enough, but her placing sure had nothing to do with wattles. I Love wattles!


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## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

I love wattles! I finally got a buck last year with them so I should get some wattled babies this year!!!


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

WHAT!!! why would anyone want to remove wattles.... ACK!!!


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

my rent a buck this year didn't have wattles, but he was brown and had 2 white spots where wattles should have been. I'm hoping maybe his babies will have wattles...... *fingers crossed*


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## Frosty (Feb 13, 2010)

I think if someone asked me that I would refuse to sell to them.. How awful.


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

I think I am COMPLETELY horrified. I understand that some people don't like wattles and yes I understand some people snip them off, but I was under the impression that was something that done when kids were very new. I wouldn't cut them of, in fact I'm sad I sold my only wattled goat because I like them. We show and I am friends with an ADGA judge and ave never heard of that. In fact she liked my wattled doe.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Cutting waddles off newborns is like cutting off the dew claws of pups. You would have to do it soon after birth. 
Unless a waddle was in an awful place- like on the nose or something, (can they be on the nose?) I would just leave 
them alone.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I don't know if they can or have ever been on the nose, but I think if they were I would leave it there! It would be HILARIOUS!!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

ptgoats45 said:


> I don't know if they can or have ever been on the nose, but I think if they were I would leave it there! It would be HILARIOUS!!


They'd look like a turkey! :ROFL:


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## DesertRose (Apr 12, 2013)

Goats Rock said:


> I once had a doeling born with wattles on her ears- They looked like earings! She did ok in her 4-H class a few years back. Not great because the girl that had her didn't
> work with her enough, but her placing sure had nothing to do with wattles. I Love wattles!


 I have one who has one on her neck, the other is right below her ear. So far all of her kids have the same exact placing of their wattles.:shades:

I only had one vet in 40+ years of raising goats ask me if I wanted the wattles removed. I asked why? He just shrugged and said a lot of people who show bring in the day old kids and have them removed. He said they wanted cleaner looking necks.onder:

I love my girls ... wattles or no wattles ... does not bother the milk production!

And, when I did show it never mattered to the judges who judged my animals.

I never know which newborns will have wattles or not. Had triplets once two had them, one did not. I like them ... they make it more fun and interesting.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

I am not a crazy big fan of them myself but I would never, ever dream of cutting them off!!! bleh!!! I wouldn't cut off a puppies dew claws either though, or dock a horses tail. I will disbud.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I like them too. Having the Saanens it is nice to have wattles in the herd that way I can still have a little variety lol.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

When I bought my dog,she had her dew claws removed and tail docked already.If she didn't, I wouldn't. I don't disbud, but would band horns if needed later for safety and I will castrate out of necessity, but I hate having to do it.

I would not cut off wattles.Seems to have no point to it at all :shrug: Just buy a goat without wattles if you don't like them.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

It's a bit late to cut them off. That should be done right away if someone doesn't want them. I don't like wattles at all, but have never cut them off. It won't effect them in the show ring if you have a judge that's a straight shooter.

As for cutting them off...it really isn't too big a deal if done correctly and soon after birth. It is no worse than disbudding or castrating a buckling. Actually...a much easier "procedure" (when done correctly).


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## Violetmoon (Nov 14, 2013)

Awwww I hope both my boys have waddles and horns!!!!


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## bonfire2013 (Dec 18, 2013)

This is probably going to sound silly but.... What exactly is a wattle? I know what they look like, but what's inside them or why do they have them? Ive never had one with them but I think they are absolutely adorable.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

They are part of the goats cooling system. They are just an empty bag of skin that are attached to a large sweat gland in the neck. If you feel them in hot weather, they are always damp so the breeze and the goats movements can help cool their body.


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## Cadence (Jul 20, 2013)

bonfire2013 said:


> This is probably going to sound silly but.... What exactly is a wattle? I know what they look like, but what's inside them or why do they have them? Ive never had one with them but I think they are absolutely adorable.


I've never felt one that was damp - but our does love having them rubbed so I have to assume they have nerve endings. I've always been told they were skin flaps.

We have a buck who throws them high up on the neck - just below the ear. Not sure of any sweat glands there.

But I can tell you with 100% certainty they are not and the ADGA scorecard and nearly never need to be removed.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here's a study that was done on them. http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ijaaar/article/viewFile/81472/71649


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Wattles are beautiful ! I think i would have shown that person the gate in a heartbeat if they asked me that ! Or maybe just slapped the stupidity out of them. How utterly insane to have even said that !!!!

My first baby goat ever was born with wattles and my husband wanted to keep them in a bottle when we sent her off to her new home , lolol
They add character and they just look adorable IMO 

*WATTLE POWER !!!*


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

My wattle baby :-D She oozes with character


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## Cadence (Jul 20, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Here's a study that was done on them. http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ijaaar/article/viewFile/81472/71649


That is really cool! Thank you for the article - that answers a great question many people have asked!

Do you know anything about the unilateral wattle inheritance they say is heterozygous? I have seen lots of does I assume are heterozygotes due to their variation between throwing kids with and without wattles, but they never had one wattle. Plus, crossing wattled and non-wattled goats does not tend to produce one wattled goats. I would be really interested to ask them about this point.

I tried to pull up the 2011 follow-up study but I couldn't get it open.


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## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Waddle waddle waddle






we looooove them


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Wattle is inherited in a simple 
Mendelian autosomal dominant trait with 
complete or incomplete penetrance and 
variable expressivity (Osinowo et al., 1990; 
Odubote, 1994a).

I think this is what explains that somewhat. Okay, I am a child of 2 brown eyed parents but, I have green eyes. It shouldn't be possible but, it does happen due to incomplete dominance. This is why you could get one wattle, wattles on ears, etc. This incomplete dominance is also inherited. All of my children are blue and green eyed, so, 50% of them got the incomplete brown eyes and 50% got blue eyes. 
If it was just simple recessive genes from my parents, then I would have blue eyes.


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## Cadence (Jul 20, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Wattle is inherited in a simple
> Mendelian autosomal dominant trait with
> complete or incomplete penetrance and
> variable expressivity (Osinowo et al., 1990;
> ...


No, eye color is polygenic - there is more than one gene involved. You don't learn that in High School biology because it is an example that people can see and identify, but eye color is not simple mendelian genetics. Lots of steps from pigment production to eye color leads to lots of colors.

I have heard that wattles were simple mendelian genetics with incomplete penetrance (sometimes dominant goats don't show the trait), but what I am confused about is why they think that unilateral wattles are Ww. Heterozygotes are usually twice a common as homozygotes in simple mendelian traits, because you have twice the opportunity to inherit the gene. What I don't see is twice the number of unilateral wattled goats. 
Unless they think that goats without wattles are sometimes Ww but don't express the gene... but then they would say that right? Bah, if only I could just ask the authors these questions


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## DogainNigerians (Feb 14, 2014)

So at my farm we have a doeling with only one wattle. While her sister has two like most goats. Just wondering if anybody else has had anything like that. I thought it was pretty unique to have only one wattle. 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes, there are actually 3 known genes involved in human eye color plus many modifiers that we don't yet know or understand. I may be a bit beyond high school biology.


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## MoKa-Farms (Jun 19, 2013)

Who in their right mind would remove wattles or place a goat lower than their peer over something like wattles?! I love wattles, they are adorable and they help cool a goat... Poor goaties!


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## Cadence (Jul 20, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Yes, there are actually 3 known genes involved in human eye color plus many modifiers that we don't yet know or understand. I may be a bit beyond high school biology.


I'm sorry - I re-read my statement and it came across wrong. 
I teach High School Bio and eye color is the example my students want to give every time. It drives crazy because it clearly isn't just one gene (as they all sit there with green, hazel, grey eyes looking at me). That is the most common place I hear it, so I was referencing my experience. I didn't mean to imply that was your only background. Typing is so much more complicated sometimes.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No, I'm sorry. I shouldn't be so impatient. If I'd had know who I was talking to I would have used the pattern on hooded rats as a better example of modifiers. Which you already know...I was dumbing it down for you :wallbang:

So I will go look these guys up and see if they are still with us. Many of these studies were done by retired scientists not willing to give up quite yet. These studies into goats are so few and far between, they were studying the purpose. They probably never even looked at modifiers or cull traits...


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