# Johnnes Management



## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

Alright, so a dear friend of mine recently came up with a doe hes had for nearly three years and she has johnnes. This has him frustrated to the point of he's getting out of the goat business and has offered to just give me some of his goats. I know its risky business but if all pans out the way we are praying Im gonna be getting a buck and four extremely nice percentage does that I would on normal ground be paying THOUSANDS for. So Here's the game plan. 

Step 1: We are quarantining every animal he owns and pulling blood on everyone.
Step 2: If the animals that Im wanting come back negative then I will move them to my property and quarantine for thirty days before retesting. 
Step 3: If all that pans out then I will introduce them to my herd and (because I recently bought a fullblood doe from him I'm having to test my herd as well) retest them all again after six months. 

Are there any other steps and precautions youd take if you took this risk?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Always be sure to do chores for your healthy herd first, then go to the possible Johnes herd, then wash your boots. If they are shedding it in their poop, that is when it spread easily. 

The doe that tested positive at his place - was this by blood test? Is she showing symptoms or it was a routine check? Have they confirmed it with a second blood test or the other type of fecal test?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I would never knowingly bring Johnes exposed goats onto my property...no matter how nice. That is a very bad disease. The blood tests are also not very reliable for Johnes. 

IF you do choose to get them...I would be blood testing AND fecal testing for Johnes regularly and keep them completely quarantined. Watch for signs of the disease. You'll have to be VERY careful not to contaminate your property or other goats by tracking it around.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

I'm building my quarantine pen with a solid floor as well do it can't touch the soil. As I said currently all goats at my friends property are under quarantine and are being tested. No there was no second test or fecal test done on this doe, it was in a regular blood draw. And yes most people would never ever in a million years let any animal come to their clean property from an infected herd. And before anyone asks they used the ELISA test. I am taking a rigorous and aggressive quarantine and testing approach to the situation. I work at a vet clinic and I'm taking the same precautions I would when I work with Parvo or Feline Leukemia patients. I also have Trifectant on hand to thoroughly dissinfect anything an everything these animals touch


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I would do the fecal test on the positive doe, and then go from there, while all being quarantined. Honestly I personally wouldn't risk it, but if you do good luck


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

The doe that tested positive was already put down the day they got the test back. So a fecal test is not an option.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

GoldenCreek15 said:


> The doe that tested positive was already put down the day they got the test back. So a fecal test is not an option.


Oh bummer. That would have been good to test.

It sounds like you are being careful and understand the risks. If more come back positive do you think you may change your mind or try to move the negative does?

I hope the rest are and remain negative!


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## fcdairygoats (Jun 24, 2013)

Personally, I don't see it being worth the risk. Nor is it worth the work of quarantine and the cost of quarantine and testing (the testing is NOT cheap). Plus if people find out you bought animals from a known heard that had Johne's, you may end up losing out of sales. When I done research on it, I had found out that a Johne's positive cow could infect up to 20-25 cows with in little time. They entire herd could be infected by the time the farmer realized what that cow had. From the information I found, it sounded like goats were the same way in infecting others at a high rate. 
You should ask yourself: are those goats and/or their offspring, worth more(in $$$$) than the costs of quarantine, costs of tests, & the work involved. Are they worth the risk of infecting your entire herd? Blood tests aren't 100% Fecal tests are beyond expensive...look up the prices if you haven't already.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

We moved everything as soon as the doe was put down an started bleaching everything the goats use and took the entire top layer of dirt off in every pen. And yes we understand testing can be expensive but in my utmost honest opinion, I believe these animals are worth it. And yes if more do come back let alone any I want I am going to reconsider, we are taking every extreme precaution to figure it out. My friend also dealt with CL passing through so it's not like he's unfamiliar with highly contagious diseases. We are going to take an aggressive approach to the situation and KEEP testing even though it adds up. We are crossing our fingers we caught it early enough it didn't pass to anything else but we'll see after Christmas


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## fcdairygoats (Jun 24, 2013)

CL and Johne's? 

Are you planning on raising stock to sell to people or are you raising them for your own use and they will never leave the property? 

CL and Johne's are both highly contagious diseases and neither can be 100% reliable when tested for. If I remember correctly both can be passed even if the animal appears to be healthy. 

You may find it difficult to make sales on your animals. You may have to sell at cheaper prices to. A lot of people have learned about these diseases and ask about them before purchasing. If I was looking at a herd and they admitted they bought goats from a herd that had Johnes or CL I would pass on them even if they had current negative tests because it wouldn't be worth the risk of potentially bringing it in my herd.

That is something else to consider as well...if bringing these animals in will cause you to decrease in sales of goats in the future.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

His herd has been negative for years since the CL outbreak. I have not for sure decided to take these animals. Yes sales can be a problem in the future but this is my path I'm wanting to look into and hence why Ive come to the forum to ask for advice on quarantining and keeping my herd protected


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

That's kind of why it was a shame to put the doe down so soon, because it could have been a false positive which happens a lot with blood testing for Johnnes. If everyone has tested negative since your CL outbreak and he doesn't take his animals off his land, then I'm guessing it was a false positive, or another possibility of it wasn't a false positive is the source of the hay he's using... I think it was TDG Farms that mentioned, cows will graze on land that produces hay in the off season, and if those cows are infected with Johnes well that might be the source.....


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

He does show his animals but does go under strict quarantine afterwards, he takes every precaution not to have this happen. The doe that tested positive was shown once years ago though and had been with him for 3 years.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Even if he does show, that doesn't mean that the blood test wasn't a false positive. Sounds like it might have been If the others are negative I'd be incline to think that one doe was okay, just a false positive.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

Okay, thanks for that advice I was kinda thinking the same thing. I mean we are extremely lucky in Nevada to not have to worry about Johnes, about every farmer here's knows what it is and what it does and does their best to make sure they don't have it. She was put down mainly because we aren't taking any chances on if it wasn't a false positive and she actually had it. And if she did have it we also didn't want to put her through what it does. Fingers crossed everyone comes back negative


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Good luck to you. It sounds like you know what you need to do and are willing to try and give the 
goats a good home. Hopefully, the first doe was an anomalie and all will be ok! Sending you good thoughts!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, good luck to you... I sure do hope that no one else comes up positive...


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I understand where you are coming from. I do the same thing with CAE+ does. You have the training and job that can help you with the testing and sterilizing of your property.

Good luck to you. I hope they all test negative. Please do run a fecal test on them as well as the blood test.

When you think of it, you are actually ahead of the game with these animals. Even with testing, that does not 100% prove an animal is free from disease when you bring it home, it was just free from disease when the blood was drawn, probably. Nothing is 100%.

You know what might be going on. You can take steps to prevent it from spreading and test for it, whereas someone just buying from a herd would do the regular quarantine and call it good.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

I will keep everyone posted, samples are being sent out Monday morning! Ill let everyone know what happens!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Not only was it likely a false positive since the doe had previously tested negative but a second test should alway always be done before euthanasia. Labs are busy, samples can get swapped or contaminated, and then on top of that the Johnes blood test is notoriously finicky. That is really too bad they killed a good pedigree healthy animal possibly for no reason. If he has no history of Johnes in his herd, it is so unlikely she had it. I would not sink a lot of money into a quarantine area with concrete flooring until the rests come back, there may be no concerns at all.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

But if it wasn't then that means that doe had started cycling and at any moment she could become clinical. By putting her down it prevents more build up of the organism and more exposure to the rest of the herd. And if she did go clinical it safes her the suffering of always starving. We are hoping she's the only one he had.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

So far so good! Everyone who was affected from this has tested their animals and everything so far is negative. A necropsy was preformed on the doe that did come back positive and it was confirmed she had it. But everyone emailed a million and one different vets and learned 10 times more about Johnes then what we did. Fingers crossed as we finish testing the main herd and keep the good thoughts headed this way everyone comes back negative!


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Phew! I hope that she was removed before she could spread it and that no others come up positive.

Good luck thanks for the updated. Definitely keep us updated!


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

Half of the main herd came back negative as well and all animals who were heavily exposed (luckily on a different property) have been culled


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Now, I would be searching for the cause... So sorry you are dealing with this, how sad...


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

So far our thought is she was born with it. Luckily enough she's never produced anything good enough to keep and all of her babies have been market wethers or does that went for meat. She was never a show doe (except for one show about two three years ago) and an extensive quarantine period is done on all incoming animals.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

And yes Janeen it's extremely sad and heartbreaking. But so far we haven't found any other cases through blood and fecal tests (before any one asks, yes all of us are going the long but safe route of doing both tests)


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

The rest of the test results will be coming back today or tomorrow. Fingers crossed


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

Everything came back negative!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

You are in a very tough spot. But the advice given is good. I can tell by your replies you dont really wanna hear it though. And thats up to you. But here are the facts. Johnnes infects all surfaces. Of course things like plastics and glass will be able to be cleaned. Wood, concrete and soil will not be. Concrete has a much better chance but its quite porous and absorbs fluids. Bleach is completely ineffective on soils, wood and other organic material. It is almost instantly neutralized. You would literally need to flood or submerge these surfaces in bleach. 

The only completely effective management of Johnnes is to remove all animals from the infected land and let it sit for 2 years or more if possible. The animals exposed really should be cull / slaughtered as it can take more then a year for Johnnes to show up in tests from time of exposure. Worst case an animal gets infected say a year or more from now from the soil. Then it takes another year or more to test positive. So thats roughly 3 years of work down the drain. If one happens to come up positive down the road, then all the animals that were with it are all potentially infected. And thus starting the cycle all over again. Now, having just the one animal positive, there is a chance you will get lucky and find that in a couple years you are still free from Johnnes. Need to find out where the Johnnes came from that infected the one goat to avoid infection again. As long as you commit to not selling any animals for the next 3 years, testing a couple times a year, then you may find that you beat it and can continue from there.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

Huh never heard of concrete and wood being unable to be disinfected before. The group of goats that were on the third property with this doe have already been loaded on a truck bound for butcher. Idk if it is aloud for me to announce the name of the person whom they got this doe from but this same person also gave them a buck many years ago that had CL. This was when they were first starting and didn't know of internal abscesses. This same person is also a well known judge. So far what we are believing at this time is that it originated with the breeder. But also being on a pasture property maybe somehow an infected cow or sheep or deer or elk was in that pasture and was how it originated. We don't know for sure and I don't know if we will ever know for sure. I really pray that someone comes up with a Johnes vaccine for goats (there one for sheep and cattle) that is usable in the US. We have consulted with many vets and I'm prepared to tackle this risk ahead. What we gathered from multiple vets who specialize in Johnes research is that because Nevada has dry soil and gets VERY hot that it kills the majority of the bacteria. Another thing we found is that though highly contagious it is no where even close to the contamination level as CL and that it also takes HEAVY exposure to infect an adult goat (kids on the other hand not so much). This whole fiasco has educated the goat people in Nevada and we are actually very thankful this learning experience came up, we were arrogant before as there were No cases of Johnes previously that affected any of us. This affected literally all of us as all of us. Thank you so much for the advice, and I have shortened my list too two does who never came in contact with the positive doe or with animals or were around the doe, also on a property on the opposite side of town. If the admins will allow it I will attempt to keep this thread open and keep everyone updated on the animals and how they are doing. I do plan to continue to test on a regular 6 month basis as recommended.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Don't say any names. I'm sorry you have gone through this.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

Thanks admin! Didn't know for sure so I didn't! And I've learned to take things positive lately, I'm using this as a learning opportunity and plan to use it to better prepare myself for more to come?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Although you cant say any names, if someone were to pm you and asked, you would be well within your right to say  And yes, especially wood. Like concrete it absorbs deep and can harbor bacteria and diseases. Bleach is neutralized long before it can sink in. Concrete doesnt absorb nearly as deep but does need more then just a light washing to be safe. I like to tell people to drench their concrete 3 times before it totally dries. Kind depends on the finish of the concrete. Most are brushed so they have a non slip surface. A smooth flat surface like what you would see in your garage is much easier to disinfect.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

Huh never knew that, so what would you use to disinfect wood?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I would use stuff that doesnt neutralize fast like bleach does. Disinfectants. Anti bacterial dish soaps, iodine, alcohol (though this one of course evaps fast).


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

But bleach is still good to disinfect surfaces, and ok. Um how about the platinum dawn dish soap? I guess I'll have to look next time I go to the store. I've got iodine but it gets expensive so I save it for use on animals. And disinfectants like, Chlorohexidine? Or are you referring towards Lysol?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Lysol can kill your animals from kidney damage. Here's an article, and you can call their veterinarian for help. http://www.revivalanimal.com/articles/disinfectants.html


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Oh forgot to mention, sorry, that if your concrete was sealed and done right, using bleach a few times would be effective. Though most dont seal their concrete cause that damn stuff is spendy. But completely worth it.

Side note: There is also an acid concrete cleaner that you use before stealing concrete. I would think if you went through the process of cleaning and sealing it, you would effectively bring that surface back to new and completely clean.


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## GoldenCreek15 (May 13, 2015)

Ok, thank you all for the tips on dissinfecting stuff I always thought just throw some bleach on it you'll be fine. Didn't know it neutralizes fast.


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