# Bullying and being mean in general



## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

So we have four does, Thelma and Pearl (mother and daughter) Louise and Chloe (mother and daughter). Thelma is a bully to Louise and Chloe. It started about three weeks ago with just being pushy at feeding time. But it has now increased to the point of chasing Louise outside and not allowing her to come in at night. We have tried to separate Thelma from everyone else, but Pearl is still nursing even tho she is almost 6 months old. We have tried to keep Pearl with Thelma but Thelma then starts to bully Pearl, by not letting her eat or pushing her outside. I have noticed that Thelma's udder is always quite full like she needs to be milked, we do not milk even tho I did milk her some on both sides to make sure it wasn't mastitis. I am at a loss as to what to do. Thelma is the only one with horns and is the biggest out of the group. Louise is very stressed, she will run away if Thelma even looks at her. And if Thelma does go after her, Louise will pretty much just lay down and then Thelma will head butting her.
Any advise would be great. Thanks
Sorry for the novel.


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

Oh I forgot to add that these to does are four years old and have been together for at least the past year and a half.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You need to keep Thelma separate. Her daughter is old enough to be weaned. You can milk a little to relieve pressure but let her dry up.


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

We have them apart now. But I am wondering what would cause Thelma to start bullying?


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Do you think she is in heat?


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

It's possible, but for three weeks? Are they in heat for that long? I have a hard time telling when they are in heat


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

At most they are in heat for 5 days.


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

So we have had Thelma apart from her baby for a little over a week and she is almost completely dried up. She does still bully everyone else even through the fence she will head butting at them and charge at them like she is trying to intimidate them. I think she is just mean lol


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## cfish001 (Sep 1, 2015)

You said that Thelma is the only one that has horns in your herd.

I have noticed in my own herd that if you have some with horns and some without horns, the ones with horns start using their horns to their advantage and become mean with them. They use them as weapons. 

I think that is how my young doe that is injured with a soft tissue spinal cord injury became injured in the 1st place when she was just a month old. The 2 goats that did have horns used them as weapons on the other goats and they were bullying just about all of my other goats in my herd. The mother who does not have horns to one of these goats also did the say thing you are talking about - she avoided her like the plague. The daughter would even go after her mother with those horns!

We had to take drastic steps and had to band their horns. We have some goats in our herd that are polled and have decided that we not let any other goats have horns in our herd and now disbud them. But I still cannot do the disbudding (I am a whimp) and have someone come to our herd to do the disbudding. I at first did not want to do disbudding, but have decided that it very necessary.

Now, those 2 goats that had horns and now do not, have changed in their character and no longer are bullies. 

IMHO, she is mean because she is the only one with horns.


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## Suntoo (Nov 14, 2013)

All of my goats have their horns.
They were all brought up together and behave like I imagine a normal herd behaves. The goat with the biggest horns (a wether) is top goat, and the littlest goat (a doe) with the smallest horns has learned to pay very close attention to everyone else's moods but she's also become extremely agile, making it easiest for her to escape.
One of the most endearing behaviors is watching the 2nd to the top goat (also a wether) protecting that little doe from a neighbor buck by nudging her gently away from the neighboring fence.
:angel:
Every evening the 2 top goats perform their head-butting ritual but eventually end up all sleeping together.
:grouphug:
#3, a teenage wether, tries to bully me at eating time but he's no different than a human teen, testing the adults to see how far he can go. If he really forgets himself, I grab the water hose and he goes flying!
:shrug:
I think sometimes they may need a break from each other, just like we do.

If your Thelma wasn't mean before, I don't think she'd suddenly get mean without an explanation, and yet, she's still a goat, so if she has the biggest horns she may be trying them out. They'll all learn to give her space and hopefully they have enough room to do that.

Living in the desert, I know for sure that those horns help to regulate their body heat! This summer I think we got up to around 113* and I never saw any of my goats panting, unlike a neighbor with a poorly de-horned Toggenburg and a hornless Boer. I felt pretty sorry for them.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I have horned and no horned goats. My queen for many years had no horns, I've never had a issue with just my horned goats being mean, I've had no horned goats being mean too. 
But as for your situation, if she is being that mean she might have to go. I don't mind the does that will put another in check if they at being pushy or what not but the hunting down like yours is doing I don't like at all, I just sold one that did this. 
Not just her being in heat but maybe others are coming into heat as well and making her a brat. Things get pretty crazy here when they start to come into heat, and again the one I sold was nasty at that time as well. If you do decide to keep her I would make some changes. You want enough shelter or 'doors' for the others to take cover. Another feeder might not hurt either and maybe the others will learn just to stay away from her.


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

We have decided to dehorn, however our vet is against it. So can I dehorn her myself? If I get the right tools?


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I've had mean horned and non horned goats. When they get that aggressive they go bye bye to freezer camp. I don't tolerate unnecessary meanness.


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

Ya, tonight she decided to get nasty with me. So we are considering saying bye bye. Not so sure about the freeze, I have never had goat. But she just is steadily getting worse


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

Amazing how an hour can change our outlook, lol I posted an hour ago about dehorning. I don't feel like that is going to correct this behavior


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

If she is going at you now no dehorning won't work  I had a doe that I adored but after my niece threw sand in her face she turned on my kids. Now I was to chicken to totally dehorn but I tipped her horns, just enough for a little ouch and as soon as it healed she was back to herself disliking my kids.


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## AncientBlue (Dec 21, 2014)

I had a similar problem with my HQ, Rosie. I just sat out there with a squirt gun or the hose and chased her down and soaked her every time she started bullying. She's still HQ but she's much better.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Try tethering your mean goat for a while and see if that gives her an attitude adjustment. Sometimes it works. Make sure she's under shelter and that she has access to food and water. The other goats will be able to steal her food but she won't be able to whack them for it. It worked for one of my does at a show last weekend. She would not stop bullying her pen mate, and after she knocked the other doe down and kept butting her I decided enough was enough and I tied the bully up for about an hour. It changed her entire outlook and the two got along ok for the rest of the weekend. 

You could also try making a ram shield. This is a piece of leather that covers the face and keeps a mean ram from butting by blocking his forward vision. I was going to make one for a mean doe I had, but we ended up putting her down for other reasons before I had a chance to try it. I bought a Doggles mesh fly mask for dogs that fit my goat, and I was going to sew a piece of leather or heavy fabric to the front with pieces that extended out over the front of the eyes. I'd be eager to find out how this works since I never got a chance to try it. 

It's not the horns that make a goat mean (although they do make a mean goat more dangerous, especially to people). I have a mixed herd of horns/no horns, and my mean goat was polled.


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

So Damfino, if it's not always the horns that makes them mean, why would my doe who used to be nice and not bully all of the sudden flip a switch and become a bully? I can't seem to find the trigger that caused her to become so mean to the others. For now we do have her separated from the rest of the herd because I was worried she would catch someone on her horns and really injure them.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm not sure what makes some goats mean. I never found out what made my polled doe turn mean except that her herd mate died, and when Lilly (who used to be lowest on the totem pole) saw a vacancy in the hierarchy, she darted in and took it with a vengeance. The only one higher on the pecking order was my 200 lb. old horned wether. Lilly was _terrified_ of him, but in his absence she terrorized the others mercilessly. She even bossed most of the horned boys around, but since they were bigger than her she couldn't actually injure them like she could the girls. Lilly was always worse during breeding season and in the final month of her pregnancy, so I'm convinced that hormones played a role. She didn't necessarily have to be in heat, but the smell of other does in heat and the smell of boys in rut made her very hyper, and this came out in the form of aggression toward other goats.

My current herd queen has no horns and is the daughter of Empress Lilly, but she doesn't have her mother's tyrannical streak, so I don't think meanness is necessarily hereditary. Lilly's horned son doesn't abuse his power in the herd either. He spars with my old herd leader occasionally, but does not pick on weaker goats. So no, I don't think meanness is associated with horns. My herd leader is massive and horned but he is not mean. I can leave babies with him and not worry--something I could never have done with Lilly.


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## cfish001 (Sep 1, 2015)

My horned goats were definitely using those horns to their advantage. I thought it was because they were the only ones that had horns, but now when I read these posts about it, I wonder. 

When we dehorned the 2 does, they stopped being mean to the other goats. 

We sold the one buck (Dusty) that we had that had horns, and its alot quieter in our barnyard now. They all seem to get along better now and they certainly dont butt each other near as much. Our one horned buck when he was here was impossible at feeding time. In order for the other 2 bucks to eat, we had to stand in between Dusty and the others so the other 2 bucks could eat. He would even go after one of other bucks for no good reason. When it approached rutting time, our 2 nohorn bucks were starting to get injurys from Dusty horns. We had decided he had to go!

I guess just like some people, goats can sometimes just be mean.

Carrol


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Yeah, horned goats will definitely use their weapons to their advantage, but not all of them will be nasty about it, and some goats are just plain nasty whether they have horns or not. I think removing the horns can definitely help a lot of goats improve their attitude. Both the pain and the shame of it is enough to cure some goats' bad manners. The shame of being tied up for just one hour was enough to keep my bully doe civil for the rest of the weekend. Removing the horns may give some goats a permanent attitude adjustment, while others might go straight back to bullying once the pain of banding subsides. I imagine it all depends on the individual goat's personality. Also, a goat that is nasty in one herd might be no problem in another. Herd dynamics are pretty fascinating.


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

Well, she was in her own pan and came home to find our Wether in with her. She tried to bully him, but her is bigger and he put her in her place. We are going leave them together for a few days and see how that works out.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Damfino, you are very correct about one being a bully in one herd but not another. I have 2 does who were sold because of their nasty attitude and they are total angels here lol but my more dominate goats are not bullies but they will put a goat in their place, the other goats know that they eat first so it works out. 
If that wether is putting her in her place that might work to get her to have a better attitude but it also might make her more mean, we will just cross our fingers for the first


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I found with my doe that got aggressive it seems to get worse as she aged. She was seven when I had to let her go. The other was just mean through and through to All the goats especially smaller ones. She was three and I had her about six months, she was mean and nasty from the get-go


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

Just a quick update, since loosing our other doe to a mystery illness we have decided to band Thelma's horns. The vet is coming out Friday morning. He has never heard of banding horns so I have been sending him links on it and he has been researching it as well and is willing to give this a shot. I am a little squeamish to do the cutting of the grooves so I figured having the vet do it was our best option. I will try and take pictures and post how it goes. I would also like to add I love this forum. I read it almost every day and have become completely hooked on everything goats. I cannot learned enough about them fast enough lol and everyone here is so wonderful and helpful.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

I am really curious to see how the loss of her horns affects her attitude. I have 2 does, a mother and daughter, that are being big bullies lately and I have been contemplating telling them bye-bye, but I'd really hate to do it. The mom has always been sort of stand-off-ish, so her being mean doesn't necessarily surprise me, but her daughter seems to be modeling right after her, and she's only about 8 months old. They are both horned, and the rest of my little herd is not. I feel really bad for my "babies" that I have right now, they are about 3 months old, and the mom-daughter duo constantly chase them, butt them, and just all around "bully" them. My little Nubian girl has been walking around with her tail tucked under for the last week, which is obvious to me that she is scared and that just makes me so sad. It's hard to decide to get rid of a few to make the others more comfortable and happy, but I might have to.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

Most of my goats have horns but the ones without are not usually bullied. I have one now that I just want one more try at getting a doeling from and then she is going. She is mean to everyone, she will not only knock them down but keep butting when they are down. She gives a lot of milk but is only a so so mother. My herd can live without her.


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

Chessa, I will definitely keep updating on this thread so you know how to goes. We came home today to find Thelma in with the buck.... I would have thought to find the buck in with her. But she moved her spool to jump over there fence (from what I can tell) and then into the next empty pen and then some how got into his pen. We have been purposely keeping an empty pen between our buck and does. But with being in with they buck she isn't being crabby towards me like she normally is and actually seems more content. Could it be that she just wanted to be bred that badly? I mean are some does like that?


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

This is one reason we don't have horns on my place. We boarded a doe and her twins who where horned in with my polled/disbudded herd and they beat the crap out of mine. She was only here for a month or two, had tennis balls taped to her horns for like 4 weeks. She got me and my SO once or twice and we deemed never again. Not even for breeding.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks Valleyhaven! I wonder if maybe yours just prefers the "company of males" and that's why she just picks fights with all the does? I know I've heard with dogs that if you have multiple of the same sex they might always battle for dominance (some worse than others I'm sure) so could something like that be going on? And I'm totally just guessing here, and could be completely wrong on the issue! These goats, I tell you! That's one of the things I love about raising them though....they always keep you on your toes! Whether it be with crazy antics, or stressful worrying! Haha


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

This is my little ClaraBelle, you can see in the photo of her grazing that she's holding her tail down, unlike in the other one I took the day I brought her home when it was up like normal all the time  she's been like that for a week or more. I mean, I realize she's scared because of the 2 bullying her, but should I be worried about anything else from that sign? I just don't want to miss something because I'm just focused on her anxiety. (We are finishing up renovating our pen this weekend so that we can separate the two meanies for the time being, so I hope that perks her back up again!)


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

Is temp normal? Eating okay? If yes to both what I would do is separate the bullies and see if that tail comes back up. She could just be nervous.


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

She is really cute by the way? What brees? We have Nigerian dwarfs. These are our two does Chloe and Pearl. I don't have a good picture of Thelma.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Stress can cause a worm load to go crazy...I'd deworm and treat for coccidia.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

What cuties! I have Nigerian Dwarfs as well, and I brought in my little Nubians this year to add to my small herd (I raised a bottle baby Nubian buckling who is now 6 months, so he and ClaraBelle will be breeding next year). 

As far as ClaraBelle healthwise, she seems completely normal other than the tail and the constant worried look on her face! Breaks my heart. Those bullies will be separated this weekend though, so let's hope she's bouncing around like she should be! I will most definitely worm her, I was just waiting because I wasn't sure if she was too young? She's about 3 months, does that seem ok to start the wormer?


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## valleyhavengoats (Aug 29, 2015)

Horn banding is done, turned out pretty well.


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