# Awkward Situation- Culling Pains



## RedGate (Dec 7, 2012)

I have a situation that have left me with a pit in my stomach and hesitant to move forward. This may get long. Sorry! Just need to vent.

I have a friend that has helped me so much with getting back into goats and showing. She moved away from her family and goats for a job in my area, just from talking with her, I knew we disagreed on a few things with management practices, but I so enjoyed having another goat person that just "gets it". We got very close over several months. I decided that I would like to visit her family's farm and probably purchase a kid. When I went to pick up the kid, I was shocked at the condition of the adult animals, the does were very thin and their skin and coats did not look healthy. The oldest doe(10) could not stand. They said she had been down since the year before but that she can usually stand again after she kids (why would you continue to breed her??). Literally my first time in their barn I glanced over in the buck pen and saw a huge buck sprawled out his side obviously near death, I helped them get him up on his sternum but it was too late, they said it was just old age(7) and that he had been off for a few days. As I watched milking, I realized the does weren't producing well for having kidded recently. However, I had traveled several hours without my family to buy this kid. And I did not want to offend them or hurt feelings, besides she knew how excited I was to get one from her herd, so I felt like I couldn't say no... what did make me feel better was the fact that the kids looked very healthy and they were raising them on pasteurized milk in a separate pasture. Despite my worries, the kid has just turned it a stunning doe. I actually brought home another doe that is even more stunning than the first. Her herd had the genetics, they just aren't getting anywhere near their potential with their poor management (feeding, breeding, managing stress, etc.). As soon as the kids go on grain they are moved to the big barn with the adult does, and their health and growth just goes down the drain. Because of her many years of experience, she has spread her *coughs* ideas to many of the new breeders in my area claiming that "this is what works in my herd..." Only these people can not see that truly it has not worked because her animals are in another state! I feel as though I have to bite my tongue so often because I don't want to taint her name, or it get back around that I have told people to disregard her advice, but I also feel obligated to help these people and their animals. So lately, I just have kept to myself more and more... 

As birthday present she gave me another doe... it was going to be a deposit for a kid out of another herd, which I thought was incredibly thoughtful, but finances did notwork out and her family showed up with this sickly little goat instead. It was so AWKWARD and feel really dumped on at this point. This kid was born later in the year (she kids out all the does with in a month usually) and has obviously just been so malnurished... I thought she was gray and lavender colored, turns out 2 months later when her coat came back in, she is white and black. She is older than most of my kids from last year and was less than half of their weight and size. Tiny bones. Not to mention she has had terrible issues with her feet, and rocks back on nearly her hocks with each step- starting to see that maybe her poor hoof care has caused her permenant damage. I have worked and worked with this little doe praying that I could get her going well and that she would blossom as the other two have. She lived alone for 3-4 months now until just recently while I worked with her as best I could, and get some blood work back on her and make sure her fecal came out clean. Of course she is the outsider and thus is usually alone even with the other goats. I have sank so much time and money into her... She is doing so much better, and growing again but I can't help but feel that the damage has been done and she will never be the quality I desire to breed. I am honestly embarrassed of her. I had someone over to look at the goats before reserving a kid, and she pointed to the rescued girl and said "what is her story?she doesn't fit!" It is such a shame because she has an amazing pedigree... you would never guess looking at her that you would find several top name herds. However, she is the sweetest baby and is always by my side... 

The family often asks me if I'm bringing her to the shows and how she is doing. While they show everything in the barn regardless, I don't feel she is show quality nor do I want to stress her or expose her to other illness now that she is finally growing and doing better- she will stay home- maybe forever.

My problem here is that, besides what I've put into her and how much I love her sweet personality. I truly can't afford to just keep her and see how she grows out for another year... space is tight, and like the lady said... she just doesn't fit in. Yet, I would feel terrible selling/ giving away my "problem doe" to someone else. She really just needs to be a pet, but I am afraid a "pet type" owner around here may not have the skills to continue getting her back on the right track, especially working with her hooves. 

... and then there is the friend who I know will ask why... She is was so blinded to how unhealthy she was. She has no idea of the struggles I've been through with her.

So what do I do? *sighs* Thanks for "listening". Have you ever been in a situation like this?


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## WhisperingWillowNDG (Jul 20, 2011)

I wish I could say that I have no idea that people did this to their goats but the truth is a great many treat them poorly. Some can genuinely blame newbie "I didn't know" but most do know or don't care that the animals they are responsible for are sick. 

God bless you for taking care of this little girl and trying to do what is best for her. As for what to do about your friend... I can only say, do what you think is best. It's obvious you have a conscience, let it guide you to the best solution on how to handle people that ask about the breeder and the doe. Remember that YOUR reputation is on the line as well. The goat world is a very small one, I wouldn't be surprised if a great many people are already fully aware of this breeder and how well (or poorly) she cares for her herd.


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## RedGate (Dec 7, 2012)

I think most of the people in her home community realize how poorly they are cared for. It's just that she is seen as the expert here, literally she worked for the extension service- but was recently let go. She had a lot of authority, and still stays in contact with most the goat people. It's really gotten bad lately, as she is still making herself so involved even though it is no longer her job. The reason we haven't taken the doe out is because I don't want to be judged by it. I honestly worry about even having my herd associated with hers. She always requests that our pens are together at fairs and talks about my animals( the two other does from her farm) as if they were her own to potential buyers (for HER herd!). I learned recently she has been using my pictures to show an example of her animals, I know she didn't think I would mind, but I do. I understand being proud of animals you've bred, but those does wouldn't be the same. This little lady is going to have to go though... and perhaps if the friend asks it's time that I am just be open and honest about the issues I've had. I pray that it doesn't completely offend her.


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## RedGate (Dec 7, 2012)

Here's my girl today. I call her Runt as I can't pronounce her registered name.


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## WhisperingWillowNDG (Jul 20, 2011)

It probably will offend her, but honestly does it really matter if she is offended? Her feelings are not your responsibility and she will never change if no one confronts her. I'm NOT suggesting that you confront her, just saying that if she asks why you sold or culled "her" goat that you shouldn't feel bad about telling her the truth and you CERTAINLY shouldn't feel obligated to keep "her" goats on your farm. At the very least, she should understand that she is not to use your photos (even of goats that she has bred) without your permission and that you have not given it, nor do you intend to. 

I'm getting preachy here, that was not my intention. I'm behind you in this matter 100%! If the goat embarrasses you or you just plain don't want to keep her, you should not in any way feel guilty about doing what is best for YOU. Personally I would think about selling all goats with the farm name attached to them. Then she can no longer attach herself to you or your herd and certainly would have no legitimate reason to steal your photos. Also, at the fair you can request that your pens be as far away from hers as possible. Might make it ore difficult for you, but overall worth not having to deal with her.


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## WhisperingWillowNDG (Jul 20, 2011)

She looks like a sweet girl... personality counts for something, but if she's not suitable then that settles that!


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

I 100% understand what you’re going through in regards to your friend, except mine is family. My aunt owns a goat dairy with a little over two thousand goats. I do not like the way they treat their animals. So many pregnant does go down from pregnancy toxemia and they never help them. Once a goat is down they pretty much write it off as dead and leave it there to starve or die of dehydration. They only trim hooves every six months. The goats are kept in sand and dirty wet hay so their hooves have nothing to grind them naturally. I would say 75% if not more of the goats are lame from the severity to a slight gait change to only walking on their knees. Injuries are prevalent from broken tails(from being grabbed by the hands) to missing eyes and ears from unsafe fencing. They use cattle prods or just kick the goats with steel toed boots to move them. The kid area isn’t any better. Survival rate is 70-40% from birth to breeding age(7 months). Did I mention they still somehow pass inspection to be a commercial dairy? 



That is exactly why I do not like large farms. I’m currently trying my hardest to move over there and take over the farm. She really does not even want the goat farm but it was her husbands and she wants to keep it running since he’s dead now.


I don’t know what to do with the doe. If you really can’t keep her then I would try and find a good home for her. Maybe tell your friend she simply didn’t fit in breeding you’re doing now. That she was a nice doe but not the direction you were going and that she found a great home. I wouldn’t put yourself in a bind just to appease your friend. I have always found the saying “Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.” Quite silly. I was gifted three does from my aunt’s farm. One is Candice in my signature the other was a little brown Saanen type named Kit-Kat that just didn’t fit in what I wanted so I sold her. The third was a black LaMancha doe named Bell that we put down due to CL and chronic ear infections. I told my aunt that I sold Kit-Kat and that Bell died(didn’t tell her how but she never asked). She was a little perturbed but she got over it. Best of luck whatever you do though these situations are always hard.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

At this point she needs to have a wake-up call. It may help to write down how you feel and why you feel this way. If she gets offended and defensive, that means she knows that you're right deep inside.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I have a "runt" who never was quite thrifty - then got listo and is severely stunted. I too do not keep in my herd unless produces and almost sold her. But I just couldn't so I bred her to a Nigerian and she can earn her keep in milk - not everyone has to go to the show ring ;-)


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## Hobbyfarmer (Sep 7, 2011)

Why don't you breed her? Sounds like all her issues may be environmental. Bred to a buck who throws strong legs and correct feet...who knows? You can always try to find a rescue group or farm sanctuary. With a healthy donation they may take her. 

As for your friend consider distancing youself. You can have a conversation about it or do it over time. Sandwiching a negative in between two positives is a great way to go. For example "I was so lucky to have you as a mentor when I was starting out. I really want to break out and make a name for myself on my own.I'm eternal grateful for all you gave given me. Thank you so much"


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Awww she looks so sweet ♥ If your going to rehome her, maybe try to find someone nearby that can come to you for advice, and you can check in on her? I know it's hard, but I'm sure this happens all the time.
We had a breeder friend sell us a 'runt' boer doe, she was okay just way too narrow. We were promised papers, never got them. Over a year later, we decided to sell her, so she went to a man who was starting a nice commercial herd. It wasn't until after that I suddenly started hearing 'I'll start working on those papers.' I had previously asked many times about papers...
While I like this friend, I don't want to do business with them. But I love talking goats with them, etc.

BUT, your dealing with someone who is acting as an expert, and having less than fit goats, and teaching people that is 'what works' and is the 'best way' then something is wrong. I think if it bothered me that much I would most certainly have to say something about it. If your friend is a good friend, they'll understand. If they are not, then they won't, they'll become offended, and there isn't much you can do about that.


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## ASTONs Dairy (Aug 14, 2012)

RedGate said:


> Here's my girl today. I call her Runt as I can't pronounce her registered name.


adorable face, can't see much more


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## RedGate (Dec 7, 2012)

I just want to thank you all for the comments. I am already feeling like I have a little more resolve about it. I think sometimes I know what to do about a situation, I just need someone else to validate it and the feelings behind it. So now to find this little girl a home.


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## Hobbyfarmer (Sep 7, 2011)

Good new is if they are upset they probably won't be giving you any more goats  You've made a good decision.


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

She looks like my Wild!!! Very pretty face~~ I think breeding her to a nigi would make pretty little ones-
I have also been "given" animals in poor poor shape=I cant say no esp if I think they will go to a bad place-I have been mostly successful but yes the bills to recouperate them can get out of hand--My most memorible one was an accidently bid on a saanen-I bought her for 5 bucks!--When i got her home I found out she was blind and FULL of worms--on good feed and a worming (or 5) her site can back and she was the sweetest thing who was an exceptionally milker-I swear she put on 50 lbs too !! 

Good luck with her!!!!


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