# Appalachian Trail



## S.L. Ragsdale (Jan 18, 2011)

:lol: Yea! Other East Coast Packers. I am an elderly gentleman and I started hiking the Appalachian Trail some years back. A little over a year ago, I had total hip replacement of my right hip. As I am no longer able to carry heavy loads up and down those trails, I was thinking about using a goat or goats to carry my hiking gear.

Does anyone out there know if they allow animals (i.e. goats or dogs) on the Appalachian Trail? Like others, i have found that most of the information on packers is about the west side of the ditch. That's too far for me to go just for a hike!

Is there a source of information like this about the Appalachian Trail? Also, is there anyone else who might be interested in hiking the Appalachian Trail?


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## feederseaters (Nov 8, 2009)

*Re: East Coast Goat Packers*



S.L. Ragsdale said:


> oes anyone out there know if they allow animals (i.e. goats or dogs) on the Appalachian Trail? Like others, i have found that most of the information on packers is about the west side of the ditch. That's too far for me to go just for a hike!
> 
> Is there a source of information like this about the Appalachian Trail? Also, is there anyone else who might be interested in hiking the Appalachian Trail?


Unfortunately, Goats are NOT allowed on the Appalachain Train (AT) at this time. :x They have regulations that prevent all "pack animals" from traveling on the trails. This is a tremendous bummer for us "day" and "section" hikers. As we all know the amount of damage our goats present to the enviornment of the AT is no more than would be offered up by the local wildlife (deer and even wild pony live on the trail.)

The rules were made before goats were packing. And I do know of at least one account of a man and his goat that was attempting a full AT traverse being kicked off the trail mid-hike. I fear only another letter writing campaign and the backing of NAPgA and other societys will get those out-of-date rules changed.

Just my opinion, but lets join NAPga in their current letter writing campaign to PREVENT the closure in the Winds. Then once we have layed that battle to rest, I will volunteer to head a task force to change the rules of the AT. 
Don't know if you can tell, but I am pretty pasionate about this subject


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## Rockytopsis (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: East Coast Goat Packers*

I have been looking into this for a 4H project and this is the reply I got. It may be of some interest here.
Nancy

Good Morning Nancy:
Are you thinking of any specific trails? According to the Ranger at the
Cherokee National Forest Office in Chattanooga you could bring goats on the
trail as long as they are on a leash. You would not be able to bring them
into swimming areas. You can go to the Cherokee National Forest website for
trail descriptions:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/cherokee/recrea ... ails.shtml I hope this helps,
if not please let us know and we will get you more information.

Carol E. Elliott
Tourism Marketing Coordinator
Tennessee Overhill Heritage Association
PO Box 143
Etowah, TN 37331
Phone: (423) 263-7232
Fax: (423) 263-1670
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.tennesseeoverhill.com


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## cryptobrian (Apr 26, 2012)

*Re: East Coast Goat Packers*



S.L. Ragsdale said:


> Does anyone out there know if they allow animals (i.e. goats or dogs) on the Appalachian Trail? Like others, i have found that most of the information on packers is about the west side of the ditch. That's too far for me to go just for a hike!


As has already been answered, currently goats are not allowed on the trail. I do have permission to utilize them on the C&O towpath and have done so on the small section near Harper's Ferry when the AT is blazed on the C&O towpath. But the C&O honestly is not the most exciting trail for a pack animal.

I am also somewhat passionate about the AT and section hike and backpack on it regularly. Some of the terrain and trails near to me would be ideal for taking my goats. However, I must say that I have mixed feelings about the inclusion of pack goats on the trail. If this does become something that the NaPGA decides to take on, I would certainly be interested in a more in-depth dialog.


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## feederseaters (Nov 8, 2009)

*Re: East Coast Goat Packers*



cryptobrian said:


> However, I must say that I have mixed feelings about the inclusion of pack goats on the trail.


Do you mind if I ask what your "mixed" feelings are? I guess I would describe myself as blindly ONE SIDED. I would really like to hear some other people's reasoning when it comes to goats on the AT. I sometimes have a tendency to not think about all the other factors that are keeping them off. Please help me be a more open minded.

What would be your argument for goats on the AT and against them? The only issue I have been able to come up with on my own concerns the FULL trail hikers. As I mentioned before, other ruminants and hooved herbivores live on the trail, however I know they most likely are not going to start eating plants in Georgia and exspell the seeds in Maine and vice/versa. The local ruminats wouldn't travel so far (not under the usual circumstances). So if goats did this it could lead to invasive species inhabiting precious ecosystems.

I live in a State where an aquatic plant (Milfoil) has invaded many of our lakes and rivers. It is an invasive species so I know the dangers of spreading plant matter to other regions. However I wonder how long a seed or viable plant life can actually last in the body of a goat before it gets pooped out. Also, if it would be viable enough still to create new plant life after going through the digestions process.

If a goat hikes from Maine to Vermont (442 miles). Most hikers hike 10-12 miles a day. It would be carrying plant matter in its belly for over a month before being in a differnt region. I don't know about further south,, but I can't think of any plant thAt Maine has that would present a threat to Vermont IF it was carried in a goat that far and excreted out.

Please by all means, I want to hear some voice of reason here. I know I am not it.

.......sorry for ranting again


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## cryptobrian (Apr 26, 2012)

*Re: East Coast Goat Packers*



feederseaters said:


> cryptobrian said:
> 
> 
> > Do you mind if I ask what your "mixed" feelings are?


Sure. I have a few concerns, most of which are really not to do with direct impact. Introduction / spread of invasives is a concern on any trail. The AT does make for easy traversal over longer stretches, but I'd be more concerned with localized containment of non-natives than with the transfer of natives from one region into another. Here around Maryland, for example, we have many parks that have difficulty with japanese stiltgrass and japanese barberry. As the AT crosses quickly through different management areas, including local/county parklands and state parklands, it would be pretty easy to make transfer and reintroduce from one park to another where it had otherwise already been eradicated... within a few hours hiking. But again, this isn't my biggest concern, I think these issues can be mostly addressed through good trail practices or awareness of areas of sensitivity.

My bigger concerns lie elsewhere. The vision of the AT is as a (human) ridgetop footpath, to an extent purposed to facilitate an intimate outdoor experience that is within reach of large eastern metropolitan living areas. However, the intimacy is maintained in part due to some of the inaccessibility of the terrain. The very terrain that I would so love to take my goats on, is exactly what keeps a bulk of the population from hiking the trail and thus preserves a somewhat back-country camping experience within an hour drive of major city centers. Using a string of goats to carry gear does create opportunity for taking more gear, supporting more people, and thus the possibility of changing the intention of the trail and what many of us love about the trail today.

In some regards, perhaps this isn't a bad thing ... it opens the experience to folks that might otherwise not be able to share it. For the person that can't carry 40lbs on their back, but can otherwise hike, it certainly seems to open the door for them to go beyond the dayhike and see parts of the AT they might otherwise not be able to reach. But the far majority of points on the trail can usually be reached as a day hike and you can't realistically extend that accessibility argument to its natural conclusion, so I'm a little mixed about it.

I general think that the use of packgoats make a positive contribution to most parks and trails. Around here we are such an oddity that most folks light up and giggle and truly have their day vastly enhanced just by happening into us on the trails. If we could find a way to maintain that across the AT I'd be thrilled. And I do tend towards thinking it could all be figured out.


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## Goatgetter (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm new here in the forum. We built in Central Maine and plan to move there some time in the future to simplify life. I fell in love with the hiking opportunity in the area. Just a guess but I think it's the erosion that might be the problem with pack animals on the AT. Here's a pic of the Barren Mountain-Chairback Range that the AT traverses. (I'm on Borestone Mountain) I read a story about somebody running into a man who had two pack goats going over this section of trail. I fell in love with the idea and will acquire some of these wonderful goats one day. Until then this site will be a great place to educate myself.


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## IceDog (Aug 1, 2010)

I read somewhere fairly recently (The Pack Goat by John Mionczynski?) that seeds do not survive the goat's extremely effective digestive system.

Apparently this is why goat manure is the perfect garden fertilizer....you don't end up with an award winning crop of weeds like you can with other manures, i.e. horse manure...been there done that! LOL

Of course seeds can hitch a ride in their goal to scatter far and wide other than via the digestive system. Ever seen a hooky bean seed pod! They actually grab a hold around the leg of livestock for the ride. Also velcro was invented after a close examination of burrs!


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## Rockytopsis (Oct 5, 2007)

Been reading lots of interesting post here. May I please ask what "The AT" is, or what it stands for? OK just had another sip of coffee and it hit me, Appalachian Trail, big duh.
Thanks
Nancy


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## feederseaters (Nov 8, 2009)

GoatGetter said:


> I'm new here in the forum. We built in Central Maine and plan to move there some time in the future to simplify life.


Welcome GoatGetter!

Maine is Beautiful. I love hiking it. Mount Katahdin is one of my all time favorites. Unfortunately, It is located in Baxter State Park. Baxter State Park is the ONLY park in New England that does not allow pack animals (including goats).

The very tip of the AT begins in Baxter State Park. Awesome hiking, but just not the same without the boys. Hiked for too many years alone, there is no way I can give up the herd life to hike solo again.

Cryptobrian....THANK YOU!!! 
There was alot there for me to wrap my single sided brain around. I appreciate your honesty.


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## Goatgetter (Jan 27, 2011)

> Does anyone out there know if they allow animals (i.e. goats or dogs) on the Appalachian Trail?


I'm sure you can take a dog along for the hike on the AT. At the forum "WhiteBlaze" they have a section as to making sure you pet is up for the hike. 2300 miles is a long way. Now that I see advice that pets are not allowed in Baxter state park I would venture to say the the AT.... is a National establishment and I would think dogs would be allowed in the boundarys of this trail which might have different regulations than the State Park. I'm probably mistaken. I have not seen any pics of Dogs on the summit of Mount Katahdin. I bet there is kennel oppetunitys at the bottom of the trail because your pet might have trouble with scree slopes. Maybe we have to get the Bounty Hunter to come up after a repeat offender of sorts. Better bring lots of Leg Irons!


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

To those of you who wamt to see NAPgA take on projects, let me remind you that NAPgA is YOU!
NAPgA is a very small organization and can olny assist with projects near and dear to YOUR heart. We will be glad to help but someone in the local area needs to spearhead. So don't sit waiting for NAPgA, let us know what you'd like to see happen and we will assist you.


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## simeo (Aug 3, 2013)

sweetgoatmama said:


> To those of you who wamt to see NAPgA take on projects, let me remind you that NAPgA is YOU!
> NAPgA is a very small organization and can olny assist with projects near and dear to YOUR heart. We will be glad to help but someone in the local area needs to spearhead. So don't sit waiting for NAPgA, let us know what you'd like to see happen and we will assist you.


Edit: I'm going to edit out my rant..... I found this in the National Park Service Policies regarding packgoats:
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*8.2.2.8 Recreational Pack and Saddle Stock Use*

Equine species such as horses, mules, donkeys and burros, *and other types of animals* (including llamas, alpacas, *goats,* oxen, *dogs* and reindeer) *may be employed when it is an appropriate use to support backcountry transport of people and materials and will not result in unacceptable impacts.* NPS regulations at 36 CFR 2.16 prohibit the use of animals other than those designated as "pack animals" for transporting equipment.

Planning for recreational stock use should be conducted in the context of visitor use planning to address social, biological, and physical carrying capacity considerations, and to make allocation decisions that minimize potential conflicts between and among user groups. The plan should (1) establish routes, trails, and areas of travel; and (2) identify the need for supporting infrastructure such as designated horse camps, hitch rails, corrals, and appropriate trailhead facilities designed for vehicles towing horse trailers. The plan should also identify sensitive natural and cultural resource areas and develop management strategies to protect these resources.

In areas where demand for available grazing for recreational and administrative stock exceeds allowable limits, alternative strategies must be developed. If available, and to prevent the spread of invasive exotic plant species, certified weed seed free hay or pellet rations should be considered as alternative feeding strategy to supplement grazing. Administrative stock use should generally follow the same rules and guidelines that are established for recreational stock use.
------
Would this then mean I may take pack goats on the AT? From what I see, yes.

The US Code of Federal Regulations (36 CFR 2.16) as referred to above further states:
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§2.16 Horses and pack animals.
The following are prohibited:

(a) The use of animals *other than those designated as "pack animals"* for purposes of transporting equipment.

(b) The use of horses or pack animals *outside of* trails, routes or areas designated for their use.

(c) The use of horses or pack animals on a park road, *except:* (1) Where such travel is necessary to cross to or from designated trails, or areas, or privately owned property, and no alternative trails or routes have been designated; or (2) when the road has been closed to motor vehicles.

(d) *Free-trailing or loose-herding* of horses or pack animals on trails, except as designated.

(e) Allowing horses or pack animals to proceed in excess of a slow walk when passing in the immediate vicinity of persons on foot or bicycle.

(f) *Obstructing* a trail, or making an unreasonable noise or gesture, considering the nature and purpose of the actor's conduct, and other factors that would govern the conduct of a reasonably prudent person, while horses or pack animals are passing.

(g) Violation of conditions which may be established by the superintendent concerning the use of horses or pack animals.
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So in other words: 1) String your pack goats unless you find otherwise, 2) Stop on the side of the trail as others pass by, 3) Don't walk on a road with a packgoat, 4) Don't be loud and obnoxious, 5) CARRY A COPY OF THESE REGULATIONS WITH YOU if any park service officials want to start beef and always be respectful, yet firm. 6) And remember: *Packgoats are NOT illegal on the AT according to Federal Regulation!* There is NO FEDERAL REGULATION against packgoats on the AT.

If you know it please let me know the chapter and section which addresses this but to ban packgoats (and other small pack animals) from the AT is just silly.


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## actonthegoat (Feb 14, 2014)

Do more stringent state park rules govern over federal rules? I would presume that they would?


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## snubbie (Apr 13, 2014)

I had read that which simeo posted above and took it to mean that pack animals WERE allowed. I rather suspect that confusion reigns because of the lack of the use of pack animals in the east. Just something that is rarely seen. 
Having packed with llamas in Idaho, considering the numbers of people who laugh, stop us, ask to take photos, and ask questions, there are areas out west where using pack animals other than horses raises eyebrows too, though no one has ever questioned the legality.

But according to the AT rules above, it would seem to be perfectly legit to use pack goats, though as suggested, I would carry a copy of the regulations on my person because I would bet most think it illegal, even those who SHOULD know.


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## actonthegoat (Feb 14, 2014)

The AT Conservancy rules specifically say no pack animals. Here's the link - http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/hiking-basics/regulations-permits
The AT passes through many state parks with varying rules. Baxter SP in Maine specifically prohibits animals. I'm not a lawyer so I can't say for sure, but don't stricter state/local laws generally govern over federal? For instance the federal tobacco purchase age is 18 but several localities have raised it to 21. 
Anyone know which regs would govern?


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## snubbie (Apr 13, 2014)

Now this is interesting. It never entered my mind, just who or what organization is in charge of the Appalachian trail and decides its regulations? I never really thought about that. 

The Blue Ridge Pkwy. passes through NC and VA, national Forest lands etc. The Blue Ridge Pkwy. is under the jurisdiction of the federal government, not sure, maybe Department of Interior? The Blue Ridge Pkwy. has a right-of-way along each side regardless of where it goes, with its own set of regulations. When you are on the parkway or inside its boundaries, you're on federal land.

So the AT passes through national forests, Great Smoky Mountains Nat. Park, Shenandoah NP, various public & private lands, state parks, etc. so I wonder who "owns" the AT or who has jurisdiction over it and who enforces its regulations?? Or do the regulations change according to state or local laws? I know National Park service has their own set of rules within NP boundaries and nothing takes jurisdiction over that.

I'm going to look into this out of curiosity. 
Is this AT Conservancy the organization that has jurisdiction over it? Or does it fall under some federal jurisdiction like Dept of Interior?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It changes depending on the park or organization. Even dogs aren't allowed in the Smokey Mountain area and thru hikers have to call a kennel service that shuttles their dogs around that part of the trail for them.


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## snubbie (Apr 13, 2014)

The AT falls under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service. There are boundary lands following the trail. Goathiker is correct, the regulations do change somewhat as it passes through various states. Each section has an organization that looks over that section but still under the umbrella of the NPS. If you go to the NPS site specific to the AT, 
http://www.nps.gov/appa/index.htm
and look at their "laws and policies" page:
http://www.nps.gov/appa/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm
...and click on "Compendium of Orders", contained within it has regulations specific to the AT and clearly states no pack animals are allowed anywhere on the Appalachian Trail. And yes, it lists goats as a pack animal.

As far as I'm concerned that settles the question.


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