# To dam raise or bottle raise kids-what is your opinion?



## Dairy_goat (Apr 11, 2015)

What are the pros and cons of dam raising and bottle feeding? Should you always bottle feed dairy kids? Can dam raising kids damage their udder/teats? Which one do you do, what is your opinion?


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Well I can give my opinion but...it's a very inexperienced one.

Personally I will aim to never bottle raise a baby. I tried once and..he died.  Not only for that reason, but we bought two ND does that were bottle raised and both of them became aggressive to my human kids and challenged them while they were in heat. While I'm absolutely positive it's possible to bottle raise a respectful goat, I've only had negative experiences with bottle babies. Our two dam raised minimanchas are super healthy, hardy, and respectful. They also forage more and don't rely on hay like our ND does did. 

Plus, our ND doe that was hand/machine milked had never had a kid on her but her teats were uneven and one was blown out from improper milking. We don't show so I'm not overly worried about teats from dam raising, and as long as our does always test negative for cae/cl/johnnes we'll dam raise. 

Most people that show dairy goats in my area pull all babies immediately though.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I would say if you show your dairy does you should pull the kids but if you don't then why make extra work for yourself. Plus bottle raised kids are more in your pocket type goats. I like mine to be friendly but don't want them all over me every time I go out. I spend time with all my dam raised kids from birth so they like humans but don't look at me like I am their dad.


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## Dairy_goat (Apr 11, 2015)

Has anyone had different growth rates with bottle fed vs dam raised kids as well?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I do both, but ultimately what you are doing with the dam is what makes the decision. Singles and even twins can wreck an udder if you are not careful, and if you don't pay enough attention they can scar the teats up by biting them and forming sores. 
But some kids are nice and nurse both sides equally and aren't biters or overly aggressive nursers so you could leave them on. Some does also wean their kids too early or not at all. I have an 8 month old kid that is still nursing even though she is bigger than her dam.

Bottle feeding can be beneficial if you have CAE in your herd, or you want dog tame kids, or want to preserve the does udder if you are ever going to show them. Bottle fed kids or lambar fed kids will get just as big as dam raised kids or even bigger if you know how to feed them right.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Dairy_goat said:


> Has anyone had different growth rates with bottle fed vs dam raised kids as well?


If you know how to bottle feed, you will notice that they grow just as good or even better. I can PM you how I feed my kids to grow them up well if you would like, as I do not agree with how most on here bottle feed theirs and would rather not open that can of worms.


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## fcdairygoats (Jun 24, 2013)

I have dam raised and bottle raised....I have a lot of luck with my bottle kids. I have only successfully raised two kids on the dams..the rest almost died. My bottle kids thrive a lot better and grow a lot faster than the dam raised and they are so much easier to handle then the wild dam raised kids. (I don't have time to play with them every day but bottle feeding/lambar feeding gives kids time with me so they are tame) I am planning on dam raising all kids next year but they will be later (may kiddings) so hopefully I wont have any die or nearly die. :/ Also if they are show does you have to watch for damage to the udders because the kids CAN damage the udders. I've seen it happen. Udders MUST be checked every day twice a day(doesnt mean you have to get them on the milk stand twice a day but need to look at them twice a day). The last doe, Angel raised her buck kid that was born in August. I checked her udder morning and night and only had to milk once a day and then didn't have to milk at all because he kept her empty. Singles tend to favor one side over the other so you gotta watch for that and tape teats when they do that. He done that at the beginning. And the last buck kid she raised done the same thing. (2-3yrs ago)


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm with deerbunnyfarm although I haven't had the same problems they are just so annoying and in your face and ugh I just would rather not have bottle babies lol no matter how strict you are on them they still have their slip ups and just the other day one of my bottle babies was getting bred and of course she had to come to mommy and of course I got mauled by both the doe and buck because he only had one thing on his mind and she just wanted her mom. But as for the whole dairy part of it I have no idea. I know with my boers and few dairy girls I don't see how they ruin their teats except for when it comes to triplets


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

FCDairy- Yes, I meant to mention that if you know what you are doing, all your bottle kids will be pretty uniform. With dam raised twins you will almost always have a bigger more robust twin and it's sibling will be smaller, there is usually always a dominant twin. 
Sorry to hear about your dam raising experience, I've never had that happen. Do you know why all the kids were almost dying when with their dams?


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## Bree_6293 (Aug 4, 2014)

We have done both. We find they both grow as well as each other bottle or dam raised. We sell ours mainly as pets so if we have does that are not friendly enough we will pull their kids and bottle raise them so they are friendlier. Our friendly does raise their own and we get lovely friendly babies still. We only bottle feed of dams that are crazy and wild. Ones that are easy enough to handle and all that will raise their own. I have bottle raised does and bucks and all are just as respectful as my dam raised does and bucks. I have one buck that was dam raised on a not so friendly doe and never handled and we have Way more problems with him trying to handle him and do feet. We do show our goats so we want goats that we can lead and handle and can touch all over without having them jump around,


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Why not Lacie :lol: 

Triplets are the hardest on a dairy doe, they will fight over the teats and rip them up. If your goal is milk, pulling kids allows you to move them on before you have any money into raising them. I will be pulling and isolating a buckling this year to be sold at 3 weeks old. He is reserved as a horse companion and we don't want him bonded to goats. I will also be pulling the kids off my yearlings so I can develop their udders properly. 

Lamb bar feeding doesn't produce many of the bad habits that bottle fed kids get. Also if you don't want your kid standing in front of you blocking your way while you are trying to fill feeders or when they want attention, then don't bottle feed him in this position. People train the goat to eat while standing in front of them from birth and then complain when they do it all their lives.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

I dam raise, part of it is because school starts at 7:45 and i don't get home till around 3:30. Second I just don't need the milk for anything currently or have a reason to pull them.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I sold a bottle baby at a week old. She had been dam raised and was bigger and stronger and ate more than her twin (though the twin was perfectly healthy). We took the twin to the doeling's (Rosebud) new home, because she had some scours *gasp* so that they could give her a shot to clear it up. Okay, maybe I was a bit paranoid, but last time I had a goat with scours, well, he died pretty quickly. Turns out, I like to see all the stools in my herd without a hint of scours. They took one look at my beautiful, sleek goat, and they said she's fine, look at Rosebud. Rosebud was several inches shorter, had the same if not more scours than Dahlia (the twin) and her coat was rough. Needless to say, my sales policies changed drastically. 
I had traded Rosebud for a Nigerian buckling, so I got to experience bottle raising myself. Bottle babies have no respect for humans. It is harder to keep them in the fence, because their mommas don't live with them. 
The buck i raised was on all my herbal meds. At a few months old he had a beautiful coat and was DOUBLE the size of his sister. His sister also was on cow milk, while as soon as I got the buckling he was switched to goat milk. The mother also licks their Hindus to keep them clean, makes sure they have enough but not too much milk, make sure they aren't bossed around or lost or out of her sight, etc.
I think bottle raising works for some people, but I consider it as twice the work: milk the dam, pasteurized it if needed, and feed it back to the kids. It also cheats the doe. They did all the work of feeding the kids before birth, and they then go through kidding and have the kids snatched immediately. I have a doe who is a very glum goat. When she has kids, she is totally changed. And when she is pregnant she is happy and expectant. I can't imagine what she would be like if she had all her kids bottled.


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## fcdairygoats (Jun 24, 2013)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces- The dam raised kids almost froze to death. The year I tried to dam raised I brought just doe kids in and left bucks on the dams. It wasn't really that cold out at the time, in the 30's. They were up and about and appeared to be latching on/nursing. I stripped their stalls and put fresh deep straw down for the night. The stall they were in was also draft free and in the barn (not the tarp shelters). I walked out there the next morning and found one kid barely breathing. The others weren't moving, couldn't stand up, but they had their eyes open and they were breathing. Very cold babies. I grabbed them all and brought them inside and got them warmed up. My bottle kids all start off in the house. I have a concrete floor in my bedroom since it's an add on to the house. So that's where I put them. I start them on a bottle and then switch to a lambar with in a week of birth. Once they are on the lambar they go to the barn. I am only dam raising this time because they will be kidding late so it shouldn't be cold in May and I am busy with nursing school. After that I will likely go back to bottle raising as it works a lot better for us. And after that year we decided bottle raising wasn't no where near as stressful or as much work as bringing those kids back and having to deal with all of that. Here are some of the babies that year! lol It was a kid pile. lol 











Jessica84 said:


> I'm with deerbunnyfarm although I haven't had the same problems they are just so annoying and in your face and ugh I just would rather not have bottle babies lol no matter how strict you are on them they still have their slip ups and just the other day one of my bottle babies was getting bred and of course she had to come to mommy and of course I got mauled by both the doe and buck because he only had one thing on his mind and she just wanted her mom. But as for the whole dairy part of it I have no idea. I know with my boers and few dairy girls I don't see how they ruin their teats except for when it comes to triplets


Every bottle kid I raise and keep in my herd is taught from the get go what they can/cant do so I don't have to worry about them being annoying, obnoxious, and in my face. 
The last dam raised doe was a catch me if you can goat and catching her at 2:30 in the morning to milk before going to work was what done it in for me. Never again will I purchase a dam raised doe. I got a dam raised buck and I hate having to handle him because he is wild. Hard to catch, hard to trim his hooves, hard to lead...ugh just a big pain with the rear. If it wasn't for his genetics and how nice his confo is and how beautiful his kids are, I wouldn't have got him.


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## fcdairygoats (Jun 24, 2013)

When comparing the two I think dam raising is more work than bottle raising but I do not pasteurize milk any more. It's much easier to bottle feed and lambar feed than to fight with the kids to get them to latch onto the does teats. That is the main problem I deal with is getting them to latch on. Ever since that year I am now paranoid I was constantly checking the August buck kid and wondering if he was eating enough. Too stressful. If everyone is due mid to end May I may forget the idea of dam raising and just go ahead and bottle raise since I will be done with school...going to wait and see when these gals are due. I have multiple due dates for them. :/


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Here's what I do, and why, for what it's worth.

I have several CAE+ does, so for them I pull the doe kids (and any potential breeding bucklings) at birth. Bucklings headed for freezer camp will stay with mom as wethers.

CAE- kids stay with mom until sold or weaned. If someone wants one as a bottle kid, I will pull them at birth.

I hate bottle kids because they are always under foot, even as adults. Nothing worse than having severely bad knees and hips and having a herd of does who are always under foot and pushy. Makes me fall or keeps re-injuring my knees. Friendly is great, but overly friendly is awful. Even my beloved, spoiled dogs are not as obnoxious as a bottle raised doe or buck.

I do milk the does who are dam raising their kids. I don't show any more, but do want to again in the future. However, even if I don't show i don't want messed up udders, looks bad to serious buyers. Plus, my does are pretty high production girls and they get awful uncomfortable with overly full udders. So, I milk them twice a day like the does who are not feeding kids. This way I can make sure the kids are eating, her teats are not blocked, and watch for any injuries or problems.

Dam raised kids can be rough on a does udder, especially the bucklings. They really pound the udders when they get older, demanding milk. Some have gone as far as to knock mom off her feet. Their sharp teeth can make a bloody, painful mess on the teats. 

My bottle kids grow as well as the dam raised kids. Looking at the herd, you can't tell the difference between the 2 sets of kids. I feed the bottle kids as much as they want up to 20 ounces 4 times a day until they are 4 months old, then it drops back to 3, then 2 and finally 1. If I am keeping the kids, they stay on the bottle until I dry the does up 2 months before they kid. They grow fast and well. Using this method I have never, in 35+ years of goats, had a kid scour, die, bloat, get Floppy kid or anything else from drinking that much. They also start eating solids on the same schedule as the dam raised kids because they are all in the same pen (starting at 2-3 weeks of age) and the bottle kids learn to eat from the dam raised ones if they haven't already learned from the dogs.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Quite frankly it comes down to what works best for you and your farm. Both sides have great arguments. Ultimately comes down to you and your lifestyle and your goals. Neither is bad, neither the ultimate in goat care.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Fcdairygoats, maybe some of the differences in experiences come from large vs small herd? 

It looks like you had a bunch of kids to raise, so if you were using a lambar I'm sure that'd be much less personal than bottle raising each individual kid. Maybe that means they're less clingy and annoying? I only have two dam raised doelings that had never been handled before I got them, but since I only have two I've spent hours upon hours with them so they've tamed into really pleasant little deer bunnies.


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

There are so many pros and cons to both methods. 
I personally leave the kids on their dam because I'm a softie and I just don't like taking babies away from mothers. 
I would go so far as to call it a conviction or a belief of mine but would never judge anyone for pulling kids. 
I have had both dam and bottle raised Nubians and never had any problems with either kind. 
And yes, if someone is showing I would say to pull kids because they can wreck havoc on udders. I have two Boer does with horrible scarring thanks to aggressive nursing.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

We are not dairy goat producers so bottle feeding for us is a huge waste of our time and money. We like to let the dam raise her babies and do all the work. I make a great effort in working with the mamma(s) so that they will feed all of her triplets. I have had to pull triplets off after the mamma developed a sore that was not able to heal but that was well after the kids were growing and well nourished from the mother. As far as the bottle babies being more tame than the dam raised babies; I'm not sure that is always going to be true. Most of our dam raised babies all turn out very friendly and easy to handle but that is because I spend a lot of time with the babies. I rather that the mamma do all the work. It truly is so much easier this way and for the most part it is healthier too. I think that they even have a better growth rate than bottle babies. If you are a dairy farmer, then it would make more sense to bottle feed but if it is just to make friendlier goats, well, there are easier ways than bottle feeding to make a goat friendly. Sometimes the temperament is just going to be in some goats to be very shy weather a bottle baby or a dam raised goat.


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> If you know how to bottle feed, you will notice that they grow just as good or even better. I can PM you how I feed my kids to grow them up well if you would like, as I do not agree with how most on here bottle feed theirs and would rather not open that can of worms.


Hehe... I would love to watch and learn from reading everyone's views on that can of worms! ::


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Probably not going to open that can any time soon! :lol: So I'll just say it takes a lot of calcium to grow a kids frame, so, don't be chintzy...


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I've done both with my boers. I prefer to make the does do the work, but I don't like watching a doe try to raise three. I used to think the bottle kids didn't grow as well, but I pulled the biggest one off a set of triplets this year and she stayed bigger even on the bottle. And she is not a pest, but is very sweet and well behaved for the most part. I take her to shows because she is so easy and makes good company for my more competitive does. For me the key to the bottle babies is throw them in with the herd as soon as possible with creep areas for them to hide from the big goats. They bond with the dam raised babies and learn to eat hay and feed from the other goats. 

I love my one Saanen doe, but if I was raising Saanens, I would bottle raise the doelings I wanted to keep as my half breed dam raised Saanen crosses are WILD!


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## clady92 (Apr 6, 2015)

*Do both, if possible*

I have a mixed herd of dairy goats & have done both dam raised & bottle babies. One of my doe's had triplets, which I had to supplement. My nubian, who was a first freshener, had twins. We had to bottle feed one & she raised the other. It entirely depends on your situation. As others have said, if showing you more than likely will have to bottle feed the kids to prevent udder damage. Otherwise, I would play it by ear. All of my dam raised babies are handled on a daily basis & love attention from the humans. The bottle babies are more attention seeking, but have learned that there are limits.


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## fcdairygoats (Jun 24, 2013)

deerbunnyfarm said:


> Fcdairygoats, maybe some of the differences in experiences come from large vs small herd?
> 
> It looks like you had a bunch of kids to raise, so if you were using a lambar I'm sure that'd be much less personal than bottle raising each individual kid. Maybe that means they're less clingy and annoying? I only have two dam raised doelings that had never been handled before I got them, but since I only have two I've spent hours upon hours with them so they've tamed into really pleasant little deer bunnies.


That doesn't have anything to do with it. Doesn't matter if I have 2 kids being raised or 13 kids being raised. They are all tame and easy to handle. I nip stuff in the butt real early with the kids. I don't care how little they are if they jump on me they get in trouble. If they bite me they get in trouble. I teach them to lead when they are little. If they get up in my space I teach them to back off. I don't put up with it because I will not allow my goats to be so rude and obnoxious to the point where they will hurt some one. Does that mean I have to get mean a few times to get the point across? Yep. But that is a lot better than having to catch a doe, that doesn't want to be caught, early in the morning before work because she was dam raised and wild.
I pretty much handle my goats (training wise) like I do my horses...would I allow my full grown 1000lb horse to walk over me and push on me? Heck no. I won't allow a 150lb doe or 180lb buck do it either.

Now with that said, I have seen some pretty obnoxious bottle kids at the shows...and I've watched people take the lambars/bottles in to the pen and even just watched people handle them in their pens and I would cringe when I would see them allowing kids to jump up on them and they would just laugh and say how cute they are...The way I see it, if you wouldn't allow a full grown doe/buck to do it, don't allow a kid to do it no matter how little or how young they are! 

This is just a general statement, not in response to the quote. 
Bottle feeding really isn't A LOT of work if you are set up for it and got a routine for it. It took a couple of years to figure out a routine that works well for us.


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## Chopsgoats (Aug 20, 2013)

We had a single doe born this past June. She was a year old when she gave birth. An accidental breading that we were unaware of. Well almost immediately she got mastisis on one side. She was treated and cared for but she never let the kid drink from that side and amazingly all went well. Her and the baby were the sweetest goats I had ever had.within 3 months they were back in the herd and momma was already weaning the baby herself and by 4 months she just stopped feeding the single doe and dried up. For us it was amazing how easily momma took care of everything. And the baby is far from skittish. I think a lot has to do with the time and interaction we have with the babies.


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

Another thing to consider if you have goats for milk, is weaning. Just try to get a dam raised kid to wean if you don't have a way separate pasture for them. Even being apart for months they will still try to nurse when back together. For me, bottle all the way. I put them on a lambar and after they know what to do there is not much work involved, friendly kids, easy to do cocci prevention, for my little farm that is win win. I pull the minute they are born, they do not bond or lick, the moms act a little confused for a day or so and that's it.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

My main reason for trying to avoid bottle babies at all costs is that they just can't learn important goat social and life skills being lamb-bar or bottle fed. The does in my herd (brought in as adults) that were bottle raised are just NOT good at foraging and grazing, and they have a much more difficult time asserting themselves in the herd. Bottle does tend to be at the bottom of the pecking order and they wait for me to fill the hay rack even in the summer. Things like rolling in sand, scratching their horns on trees, stripping bark from saplings - all important goatie skills! 

But there is no doubt that I need to make a huge effort to socialize my dam raised kids - and even so end up with some spooky weaned kids despite it. It is very nice to easily catch my bottle raised does.


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

SalteyLove said:


> My main reason for trying to avoid bottle babies at all costs is that they just can't learn important goat social and life skills being lamb-bar or bottle fed. The does in my herd (brought in as adults) that were bottle raised are just NOT good at foraging and grazing, and they have a much more difficult time asserting themselves in the herd. Bottle does tend to be at the bottom of the pecking order and they wait for me to fill the hay rack even in the summer. Things like rolling in sand, scratching their horns on trees, stripping bark from saplings - all important goatie skills!
> 
> But there is no doubt that I need to make a huge effort to socialize my dam raised kids - and even so end up with some spooky weaned kids despite it. It is very nice to easily catch my bottle raised does.


Amen and amen again!!


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I've done both. Dam raising is way easier, way, WAY easier! However, if you are showing (we are) then bottle feeding is the way to go.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Mine don't have any trouble learning all the normal skills of a goat. That is all learned by mimicking anyway and has nothing to do with nursing mom. There's no reason to keep them isolated completely just because they are bottle kids. As soon as mine can keep up with a herd they are put out with the old wether and retired doe for browsing and socialization skills. By the time they are 6 to 8 weeks old even their own mom doesn't know them and my dairy girls don't really want to nurse them anyway.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

We mostly dam raise. It is easier and they seem to grow better than my bottle fed kids. I bottle feed some kids for two reasons. One, if the dam is very standoffish or a bully. The kids mimic momma so much that, if I bottle feed, they are usually 50% better than their dam. 
The second one is if I'm going to sell the dam.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I dam raise. My does are CAE negative. 

The doe I bought bottle raised is obnoxious. It could just be her though.

I like the kid this doe raised on her own but as a single kid the udder was crooked. I'll be curious to see how she freshens as a second freshener.

My doe that has always had twins and triplets has not had any udder or teat damage from nursing kids.

So I'd say unless my doe straightens out with twins this coming spring that I like to dam raise twins and bottle raise singles.

The caveat being the dam raising the kids must be CAE negative.

Edit;
I don't let the bottle raised doe get away with anything... She doesn't jump on you or head butt. She knows better. God she is annoying anyways.

I don't have many goats so even though the dam raised babies don't get handled much they are used to me and have chosen to become affectionate and friendly.

I feed them on the milk stand to do feet and to train for milking.


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## fcdairygoats (Jun 24, 2013)

SalteyLove said:


> My main reason for trying to avoid bottle babies at all costs is that they just can't learn important goat social and life skills being lamb-bar or bottle fed. The does in my herd (brought in as adults) that were bottle raised are just NOT good at foraging and grazing, and they have a much more difficult time asserting themselves in the herd. Bottle does tend to be at the bottom of the pecking order and they wait for me to fill the hay rack even in the summer. Things like rolling in sand, scratching their horns on trees, stripping bark from saplings - all important goatie skills!
> 
> But there is no doubt that I need to make a huge effort to socialize my dam raised kids - and even so end up with some spooky weaned kids despite it. It is very nice to easily catch my bottle raised does.


My bottle/lambar raised does didn't get that memo... :think: lol


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## ct_windfarm (Dec 28, 2015)

I agree with all posts and it going to come down to your preference. If the dam is for show you may want to bottle feed to preserve the teets and conformity, you may have chaffing from kids nursing or biting to much. Here is my experience; we had 16 kids this year some quads and had to bottle feed and one that mom wanted nothing to do with. I prefer natural feeding, one is the bonding between them so the stay cuddled up to the dam for heat and security, second , the ones we bottle fed bonded so much with us that whenever they hear your voice they come running up to you and jump you try and feed others hay, their all over you. At times this can be a nuisance, but yes we still love them dearly, and the getting up and making bottles and going out to feed them at preset hours, be prepared!!! our 30+ goats are all growing pretty much equally and healthy as can be even in our sub artic -30 weather we get here. Short story, we let them natural feed and only bottle feed if necessary.


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