# Teat Spur/Breeding Question



## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

We took our buck, Beau, to his first show last weekend...good news was that he placed 3rd in two rings and 1st in another against some very tough competition. Bad news is that the judge in another ring noticed that he had a spur teat (the other judges did not notice)!

So, I contacted his breeder (she was wonderful about it, btw), she is replacing him and has advised that I cull him and all of his offspring from my herd. So glad I bought from a reputable breeder who was willing to replace him due to this defect! I already found a pet home for Beau with someone who was willing to take him as an unregistered, pet quality buck. They breed for the pet market where color, temperament, size, and health are what they are looking for rather than being perfect for the showring so they were happy to take him and give him a home.

He has a total of 4 bucklings from this Spring and one doeling (that I am keeping for now). None of his kids had any extra teats.

Of the bucklings, 1 is out of a doe with an unexceptional mammary system and is not very flashy, so I had already planned to wether him anyway. 2 come from a doe with champion bloodlines and a gorgeous udder, plus they are flashy boys so I am going to offer them as unregistered bucks to someone who might be breeding just for pets or home milkers. Maybe someone who has standard-sized goats and needs a small buck to breed their first fresheners to to prevent birth complications...

The last buckling, though, is one I had planned to keep and I am having a hard time deciding to get rid of him....he is out of my best doe, he's long and level, POLLED, and at the show he got loads of compliments from the judges, especially on the width between his hocks and the height/width of his escutcheon (one judge said it was outstanding). He did not place, though, as he was just a little 12 wk old and could not compete against the big boys who had had a year or 2 to mature.

So, my question is, how bad of an idea would it be to keep him? I went online to research this and found lots of conflicting information so I'd love to hear opinions on the matter..

This has been a total nightmare...when I really step back and look at the impact it is devastating. Everything from buying and raising this buck up to an age where he could breed, breeding him to my does, waiting for kids, bottle feeding kids, registration fees, feed, shots, time....argh! Plus I have 2 more does bred to him that are not due until Fall, so I will have to wait until then to cull those kids, too!

Lesson here is not to ignore your bucks! I just don't handle mine nearly as much as my does and I never even thought to check his teats as I knew he came from an excellent herd and his breeder had checked and re-checked before selling him. I did not know it was possible for them to grow a spur teat as they got older like he did. Arrrgghh!

From now on I will be flipping over every goat I own and checking those teats frequently! They are going to think I've gone nuts, but it's better than waiting to find out in the show ring that a whole year of breeding plans has been ruined!


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## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

Forgot to add....one thing I am wondering is whether Beau's good attributes could possibly outweigh this fault.

At the show he placed 1st and 3rd in classes against bucks owned by the Twin Creeks herd and Buffalo Clover...stiff competition. His conformation is very nice, he's long and level, has adequate width throughout, nice long lean neck....his mother's mammary is very nice and has exceptional lateral attachment.

I am already keeping the one doeling out of him and my best doe...is it just crazy to think about keeping the one buckling in the hopes that he could bring in some of Beau's good traits without passing on the teat spur?

:GAAH:


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## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

Whoops, totally forgot to mention, these are Nigerian Dwarfs...in case that makes a difference in how strong of an inherited trait it is.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I really don't think it matters with breed... :greengrin:


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

I would keep the polled buckling Cyn...he is gorgeous.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

With teat spurs or even double teats, regardless of wether the kids have them or not they can pass it on, pygmy /nigi cross pets here for example...paternal grandsire has a double teat...sire does not, 4 kids out of 2 does, 3 of those kids have a double teat, dams do not have the "extra". Yes, even if a kid sired by a "teat defective buck" is perfect, they can pass it along to offspring. With registered stock, especially dairy, I would wether bucklings and even sell doelings as pets without papers.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

IMO i'd get rid of the buckling.. i don't care what he looks like, if he carries the teat defect it'll be more of a problem for the herd in the long run.. plus if the breeder is replacing the buck i think its courteous to heed her advice. I know if i was replacing an animal with that defect and they kept offspring i'd feel kinda disrespected


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## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

Hmmm, had not really thought of it that way...as far as respect and all that. Though she did not ask me to get rid of them, she just suggested that I get rid of the boys and only keep the one doeling as that would have a lower impact on the herd.

I suppose you are right about it affecting the herd in the long run though...this just seems like such a weird thing to me that this small thing is so important that people think it is worth wiping out a whole year of breeding while people regularly breed animals with all sorts of other faults and nobody bats an eyelash at it. Which makes sense since they ALL have some flaws as there is no such thing as a 'perfect' goat. I have seen finished champions with elbows that stick out like crazy and who pass on the trait to many of their kids, but people still breed them because their other aspects outweigh the fault...they just try to decrease the fault in subsequent generations by breeding them to animals with better front ends. 

Just hard to understand why something that *might* pop up in a tiny percentage of future animals is weighed so heavily.

On another topic, when is it too late to use Lute to 'cancel out' a breeding? I have two does that were in the breeding pen with him from March 14th thru April 14th, is it too late to give them the shot or is there anything else I can do?

There is the slight possibility that one of the does did not take as she was being abnormally friendly today when I was out there, she is not wild but is not usually a lovebug either and today when I was sitting out there she came up on her own and was leaning into me and sniffing all over my face...I also saw her flagging a bit. I really, really hope this means she is back in heat and that she did not take when she was in with Beau.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Honestly, I'd wether the buck and all the buck kids. You don't want this spreading into pet or show animals. But that's just my opinion. Teat spurs can skip generations and then pop up. I wouldn't risk it.

Yes, people breed animals with faults, but teat spurs and extra teats are a very big fault, imo. We are talking about a production animal here and the teats are the way of getting the milk out. Animals with teat spurs or extra teats can be hard to milk, more prone to mastitis(more orifices equal more openings and more chances for infection), may not be able to feed their kids, ect. Things like loose elbows do not cause issues like this.

Sorry this has happened, it's really annoying. :hug:

Lute can be used at Any stage of pregnancy and will always abort the kids.


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## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

But is it safe to use the Lute if they are up to a month or so along?


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Yep perfectly safe


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Well you are giving hormones, an injection, there are always inherent risks involved with that. But if you are wondering if I would do it, probably. After a month and a half gestation, probably not, but you never know. 

If the fetus/fetuses are a fairly good size then the doe/does will go into labor. Otherwise they may just absorb them or you will see a bit of blood, but nothing major.


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## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

I think that is what I will do, then...this whole thing is just a nightmare. 

Feels like I put all this work and time into starting my herd and now I am back to square one. Hard to swallow, especially since this whole goat thing is my hobby and the hubby is not exactly excited about how much money it costs or how many building projects we spend our weekends putting together for them...plus all the other assorted hassles like the LGD that barks all night and kills our chickens. 

This is going to make it that much longer before I can show any progress in the showring or sell any kids to help make the herd more self-sufficient (not that it will ever be profitable, but it would be nice to be able to say I sold a few at normal prices instead of practically giving away a bunch of wethers).

Just feeling so...defeated right now. :tears:


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Sorry.  :hug: 

You could keep the buck and still use him, but to take the chance of getting kids with teat spurs and loosing even more profit over several years isn't good either.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

i think in the long run starting over would be betterfor the herd overall, and you wont have a defect running thru the lines.. i've restarted my herds probably 4-5 times because they werent getting where i wanted


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Even pet quality should have the wanted qualities of Nigerians - regardless of the registration papers a person should breed for quality and "flash", if wanted.

I have registered myotonics that I bought super cheap... Well one has an extra teat that I didn't notice till her udder filled. Now I bought all these for meat only when I cross breed them - but the one with the extra teat will be culled or her offspring will only be meat - never selling the offspring. I would hate to have someone take a daughter and later find that the offspring produced by her are not quality.


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## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

Oh well...sucks, but I guess we'll be having a banding party this weekend. There will be a total of 4 boys getting done. No idea how I am going to cram the 14 wks old boy's 'equipment' through that little band, though. Will be a challenge.


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## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

Well, we had our banding party yesterday and I did all of the boys including the buckling that I had wanted to keep. At least I still have his dam so I can hope for another polled buckling out of her, maybe next time, that I can keep. 

btw, banding is just awful, poor boys looking all confused and uncomfortable! At least they seem to have lost all the feeling 'down there' now and are wandering around like nothing happened.

We're headed to another show at the end of this month and Beau's breeder is meeting us there with his replacement. I am pretty excited about that as I paid a bit extra to get a buckling out of a VERY nice doe who is a finished champion in both AGS and ADGA and has thrown many, many NICE kids who have wins of their own. Plus, the sire is out of another nice doe they have that I just love, she has 2 out of her 3 championship legs and is still a young doe so she should finish in both registries as well...and the sire's sire is from some very nice lines as well. This little boy should be quite the powerhouse to improve my herd in a hurry.

The breeder likes to use variations of the word 'boot' in the names of that dam's kids, so we are naming him 'Reboot' as he is rebooting my herd. Plus, my hubby is a programmer and we are both geeks so it just fits us perfectly.

I am also picking up a nice FF doe from Twin Creeks (she is actually a Piddlin Acres doe, but she is owned by Twin Creeks at the moment) at that same show and I bought the cutest little mini-manch doeling from her as well. So we'll be losing a total of 7 goats from our herd (once we sell all of our wethers) and adding 3.

With this new buck coming in, I will have two very nice bucks (the other one is a Kingwood son out of MCH Lost Valley Chloe) and several nice does from excellent bloodlines to restart my herd now that the ones with teat-spur fault have been culled out. Crappy to start over, but at least I'll be starting out with a strong foundation.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Congrats on your new doe that you are getting.

I know that it sucks - but you did the right thing (in my mind). I wish you were closer - I could totally help you out with a REALLY nice buckling that will be ready in Fall for breeding!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I know banding isn't fun at all....  :hug: 

Can't wait to see ..the pics of your newbies coming in....congrats.....they sound really nice... :thumb:


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