# Traditonal vs Tubular



## nancy d

The last show I was at the judge (very high up in the association) made some interesting comments re: the tubulars."This is where we're going you all need to get on board."
They are pretty & very feminine, but I prefer the old style. 
Where's the meat on the Tubulars? And the body capacity to carry multiples?
It has me wondering...


----------



## newmama30+

Have you read Jack Maudlins Web Site? He has some good insight into what is now being looked for in the Show Boers as compared to what we need in a Commercial herd.


----------



## lissablack

Do you have pictures or a link to pictures? What does that even mean? I am only into all purpose goats, but I know that the trend tends to be to turn all purpose goats into dairy goats, and you have to fight it. Nubians used to be all purpose goats. If they had stayed that way we wouldn't need kinders. We could turn all the goats into dairy goats.

Jan


----------



## GotmygoatMTJ

They basically want them to look like meat sheep with floppy ears. I like the old style better too.


----------



## AlaskaBoers

Wide load *Ennobled* AABG --Tubular Style Buck-










Bar None 5's Jack Blue ...Bear Creek Boers -- Old Styled Buck--










Eggstra Clip... EGGS Boers -- Old Styled Buck--










SWE Main Event... 2DOX Boers -- New Styled--


----------



## goathappy

lissablack said:


> Do you have pictures or a link to pictures? What does that even mean? I am only into all purpose goats, but I know that the trend tends to be to turn all purpose goats into dairy goats, and you have to fight it. Nubians used to be all purpose goats. If they had stayed that way we wouldn't need kinders. We could turn all the goats into dairy goats.


Not to argue but the reason why Nubians have been turned away from all purpose goats is because more and more people wanted to use them and breed them for milk rather than the meat aspect(the higher BF attracts a lot of people) a higher producing dairy animal holds up better over their lifetime if the body structure is in a correct style for dairy animals. Also Nubian popularity has driver a lot of breeders imo to breed more stylish and pretty Nubians, going away from the heavier style of Nubian.

As for Boers, I haven't really kept up with them since my brother sold out a few years ago, so I wasn't aware they've come up with a new style. Personally from looking at the pictures, I like the old style better. I don't know how things are in the Boer show industry, but in the dairy industry the standards have changed over the years. What they bred goats to look like 30 years ago is much different from what they do now. When an organization is trying to develop conformation standards, they really need to look at how the overall structure of the animal will hold up over their lifetime. Which style is better for an animal to hold up in a real life commercial situation? Traditional or tubular? If its traditional then that is the style judges should be trying to encourage people to breed for. Show champions and animals that conform closely to scorecards are supposed to be examples of what small commericial or hobby breeders should breed for: an animal who's structural correctness will benefit them over their lifetime, and who's body will hold up until they die.

With dairy goats, some of the top breeders have animals who have milked 30,000+ lbs over their lifetime, earned permanent championships, high appraisal scores and those does still look like they did in their prime despite all that work(at 8-9 years of age). It should be no different for meat goats. They should be able to produce kids and raise them while putting a minimum amount of stress upon the structure of their body.


----------



## AlaskaBoers

goathappy said:


> It should be no different for meat goats. They should be able to produce kids and raise them while putting a minimum amount of stress upon the structure of their body.


Exactly my thoughts, we need productive animals that can RAISE their OWN kids, 2 or 4 teated. great wording too

The tubular style is in fact the current trend, although people are realizing that they need to go back and look at the African standards that say a productive animal will have excellent depth and a well fleshed neck...

Well Fleshed, Excellent Depth...










DHP Lily, Toth Boers

Extremely long neck









...Boers are MEAT animals


----------



## ()relics

AlaskaBoers said:


> ... we need productive animals that can RAISE their OWN kids, 2 or 4 teated. great wording too
> 
> The tubular style is in fact the current trend, although people are realizing that they need to go back and look at the African standards that say a productive animal will have excellent depth and a well fleshed neck...
> 
> Well Fleshed, Excellent Depth...
> 
> ...Boers are MEAT animals


I agree except about the part of being more than 2 teated...A long necked boer goat with long legs would have never come along on its own. Rather some people are breeding this genetically inferior trait, because it is the new show trend....And everyone knows if you want to win you have to show what the judge likes, right or wrong. When I went out looking for a "new path" for my herd I landed on a pure SA/NZ line...He looks nothing like the new trend or anything like my old style "Eggs" type bucks. I kicked around a "tubular style" buck but went with the bigger meatier import, because I raise Meat Wethers...and show some of them....Not the other way around. Now the 2 teated part...I only breed/keep 2 teated animals, bucks and does....any multiples are culled. To each his own..I think you will be finding less tolerance from 1 of the 2 registries, should these new rules be accepted, about the registerablility of multi-teated goats.


----------



## goathappy

I would assume with tubular style you're losing body capacity and therefore potentially lung capacity(not to mention it looks really really queer) and that really isn't a good thing. Meat animals in general are supposed to have briskets. Look at beef cows vs dairy cows


----------



## GotmygoatMTJ

Also, the SA boer breeder book (the one mentioned on Mauldin's website) also says that the body to leg ratio should be 60/40. Toth's doe is a very good example of that! But they are breeding them 50/50 now! We are losing body capacity, and therefore, room to carry kids. Of course, the length helps but if they had the depth....


----------



## AlaskaBoers

I'm in for 2x2 and 1x1 teats...and your right sarah they do look queer.


----------



## newmama30+

I like the old style boer, It is a meat goat, It should meet the standerds for the breed but people took what imho was already a good goat for meat and are making it Pretty for the show ring, I also would like to know where is the meat? and I personally when we get down to seriously breeding our goats will be breeding for 2x2 clean teated, the does will meet SA standards for the Goats, I want meat goats not show goats, nothing wrong with showing but when you start to change the whole look of the goat, its not worth it to me to show if I my goats don't stand a chance.


----------



## goathappy

That's the thing though is that even for show it doesn't even look good. And what's the point of showing and having breed standards if judges are going to disregard them and give higher placing to animals that obviously are not up to the standard or are even good as production animals?


----------



## SDK

i think they just need to get the tubular animals to get the width that the older style has. the new style has a ton of pizzaz IMO and i love the longer bodies, makes for a longer loin


----------



## citylights

Boy, do I enjoy a good discussion on structure! I'd never heard the word "tubular" before, but I now recognize that look from the shows. That does seem to be the trend right now, doesn't it? I had a chance to talk with one of the professors from Texas A & M at a show not long ago -- we were both judging our respective breeds in adjoining rings and had to share a microphone! And one of the things I said to him was: "My God, they look like sheep?" And they do, don't they?

IMHP, the trends change to fit what the market demands. Yes, the traditional style is very handsome, but what are the priciest, best cuts of meat? a heavy neck may be attractive, but not a popular cut of meat. No one is going to pay top dollar for neck meat, but they will for the loin cuts. Same with the rump. Someone said something about fainting goats having steep rumps b/c it gave them a heavier leg muscle. Once again, pot roast is not a top dollar cut

IMP that's why they've lengthened those backs. And with that lengthening, you have to let the neck be longer, otherwise you'll lose your balance and style. And with that long back, you've lost some depth at the heartgirth, but kept the overall body capacity, no?

Both styles are -- to me -- are attractive, serviceable-looking animals. At least this breed hasn't fallen prey to the pygmy goat "smaller is better" where some breeders tried to breed "cobby" and ended up with short-bodied animals with steep rumps who were nightmares to kid!

in closing, I'd like to say: Gawd, we're a bunch of goat dorks, aren't we? :wink:


----------



## newmama30+

I have to argue that City Lights b/c the boer goat is supposed to be a shorter legged shorter bodied goat so that it does well out in a field foraging, for its self. That is why they needed to be the way to old style Boers are, the longer back may give you a longer Loin, but when you loose the depth and ability for a doe to carry 4 kids to term and kid and then raise all 4 kids to weaning age, which is around my area the age where meat kids are most in demand for eating, then you loose 1. your profit from selling kids for meat, 2. you loose your profit from having does that can't forage and need hay year around. As a small producer I need does that 1. Can deliver as many kids as they can. 2. Does that can raise all those kids without me having to bottle feed them. 3. I also want my does to have horns that curve out away from their heads so that they don't get stuck in the fence, or anywhere else. 
So City Lights why do you think that the New Style boer have horns that curve back toward the neck and then curve out? I know that it isn't for more meat on the animal. It's looks, that is all someone thought that it looked good so that is what the judges want in the show ring. It is the same with the long neck and long back its looks and nothing to do with meat. Okay I said my piece now I will Shut my mouth. I know that we all have our own opinions and that we all look for different things in our goats.


----------



## SDK

i agree with denise,you lose some heartgirth, but with a longer body to accomodate for the loss you're still okay. the first buck that was posted is a new style, but he's wide too. which IMO is the best for meat production. you'll have capacity, but theloooong loin


----------



## ()relics

newmama30+ said:


> ... ability for a doe to carry 4 kids to term and kid and then raise all 4 kids to weaning age, which is around my area the age where meat kids are most in demand for eating, then you loose....So City Lights why do you think that the New Style boer have horns that curve back toward the neck and then curve out?


 First of all let me say in all my years of breeding and raising boers I have only had 1 set of Quads, and that turned out horribly...I would much rather have twins because all my does only have 2 teats, 1 for each kid. Even 2 kids are a strain on the best doe. Much more important to me is weaning weight and total weight weaned per year...
Secondly the horn set is of very little importance on a show wether.
Thirdly it should be noted that the pictured goats are of various ages. Some are slick shorn, some look to be show clipped, while others may even only be pasture/maintanence clipped. Any of these factors, not to mention the picture itself, can seriously change the "look" of any goat...You would need to stand them side by side and put your hands on them to make any real decisions on Good/Bad...JMO...


----------



## citylights

Bobbi Jo -- having different opinions it what makes a discussion fun! 

Does anyone remember how the market lambs looked years ago? Alo were Hampshire x's and short, chunky little things -- now look at 'em! Sheesh!

I do believe that most ag producers tend to want animals that bring the highest $$ -- sometimes over structure -- look at turkeys. They've grown their breasts so big, that they can hardly walk. But that's what the consumer wants and will pay more for that.

Bobbi Jo, the most important thing to me is a animal that can serve its intended purpose for its entire life. That means doe who can kid easily, raise those babies. That means a buck that isn't so grossly over-muscled and heavy that his legs break down (talking pygmies here. seen a lot of that). It's an animal that can forage for its life, not so arthritic due to poor conformation that it's a cripple by the time it's 5 yo. and can't even walk around the pasture. And that's what I breed for. Sometimes my goats don't do well at shows, but any judge who knows his or her structure will look again at mine.

@SDK, I think the first buck posted is quite handsome, too! But I'd take the toth doe hands down. i think she is a stunner -- depth of body increasing to her flank, very level, great slope to her rump; yet she's long bodied w/ a lovely set to her neck that accentuates her feminity.

once again I'm just a goat dork! ;]


----------



## toth boer goats

> Exactly my thoughts, we need productive animals that can RAISE their OWN kids, 2 or 4 teated. great wording too
> 
> The tubular style is in fact the current trend, although people are realizing that they need to go back and look at the African standards that say a productive animal will have excellent depth and a well fleshed neck...
> 
> Well Fleshed, Excellent Depth...


 I totally agree Katrina..... :wink:



> Now the 2 teated part...I only breed/keep 2 teated animals, bucks and does....any multiples are culled. To each his own..I think you will be finding less tolerance from 1 of the 2 registries, should these new rules be accepted, about the registerablility of multi-teated goats.


 I love both ...1x1 clean and 2x2 clean teated...the ABGA recognized... that the Boers ...do have multiples and changed... the show animal specs and excepted... 2x2 clean as well....for me... I have both...I do not cull them out... just because ...they have multiples....as my Does are real good producers ... my Does have plenty of milk... to supply all their babies....all the way to weaning.......... now... if the Doe couldn't handle trips....I will cull them...I don't like bottle feeding and so far... I am really lucky with my Does.... :wink:



> I would assume with tubular style you're losing body capacity and therefore potentially lung capacity(not to mention it looks really really queer) and that really isn't a good thing. Meat animals in general are supposed to have briskets. Look at beef cows vs dairy cows


Sarah~ I agree with that ...all the way.... :thumb:



> Mauldin's website) also says that the body to leg ratio should be 60/40. Toth's doe is a very good example of that!


GotmygoatMTJ...thank you... :hi5:



> That's the thing though is that even for show it doesn't even look good. And what's the point of showing and having breed standards if judges are going to disregard them and give higher placing to animals that obviously are not up to the standard or are even good as production animals?


~Sarah~ I again agree.... I had a old style meat boer buck... that was well muscled ect....he went up against in a show... to a more tubular ...type buck the tubular buck... won over mine....this was a meat class show.. :shocked: ...but the idiots... hired a wether judge....so ...you know what that judge will pick ...one that looks like a wether.... I was a little upset... and everyone was shocked ..that the new style won....We have to make sure....who the judge is....and what type of judge ....he is qualified to judge.... the judge.. that I had at the one show.... was classified as... a wether only judge....and that was his past record........ and was hired... to judge a meat class.... :doh:



> i think they just need to get the tubular animals to get the width that the older style has. the new style has a ton of pizzaz IMO and i love the longer bodies, makes for a longer loin


 the only thing is ...if a boer has too long of a back... with time... it weakens really easy...the longer the weaker.... and if it is a Doe carrying kids this will break her down.....more rapidly than a traditional...



> IMP that's why they've lengthened those backs. And with that lengthening, you have to let the neck be longer, otherwise you'll lose your balance and style. And with that long back, you've lost some depth at the heartgirth, but kept the overall body capacity, no?


 Breeders really shouldn't mess with perfection with the old style boers.... they are fine tunning out... the important qualities the meat goats and what ...they where meant to be....Sometimes... when we change things... it only creates more problems....



> in closing, I'd like to say: Gawd, we're a bunch of goat dorks, aren't we? :wink:


 :laugh: :thumbup:



> .I would much rather have twins because all my does only have 2 teats, 1 for each kid. Even 2 kids are a strain on the best doe. Much more important to me is weaning weight and total weight weaned per year...


 My Does hold up well even with trips.... the more kids you have the more money in your pocket ...when it comes to weight ratio.... or selling each as breeding animals....



> But I'd take the toth doe hands down. i think she is a stunner -- depth of body increasing to her flank, very level, great slope to her rump; yet she's long bodied w/ a lovely set to her neck that accentuates her feminity.
> 
> once again I'm just a goat dork! ;]


denise..thank you so very much... :thumbup: :hi5: :hug:


----------



## AlaskaBoers

I totally agree that a long goat *WILL* break down faster over time, you want them a good length and it's been noticed that the newer styled bucks are dying at earlier ages because their bodies cannot stand the test of time.

As for aesthetics, I really LOVE the curled back horns and *moderate* Roman profile, I don't like seeing a "Basketball" head... pics..

PW War Dancer (MAUL)










A NICE buck with the right balance of old and new, though I don't like the look of the horns, it's *practical*

Zaf Brick House










See, I Admit I love the look of this bucks hornset, horns in the show ring are important, animals cannot be ennobled without horns. 
Jack Mauldin argues that it's unhealthy. I agree in that aspect but it's hard to get over a good looking set of horns. I've seen pics of goats with horns that touch and rub on their necks.. i cannot help but feel sorry and i hope that we find a happy medium.

HEAD SHAPES:

Classic, World Champion Buck









(How can an animal drink efficiently with a head like a basketball?)

I'd Rather see...

Toth's Gold Rush (my buck) He's got a perfectly shaped head, he can DRINK!









*FITTING:

JESTER AABG Steam Roller










He looks like a young buck, 2010 RES National Champion Buck, AABG
-- they're now fitting them like show steers, notice the hair on the legs, I'm not sure how well this particular buck will turn out as it looks like he has a scrotal split.


----------



## icboers

A scrotal split is not a cull unless it is split more than what breed standards say. It doesn't affect fertility.

Karla


----------



## AlaskaBoers

Ok thanks, does a scrotal split grow? I would think it would get deeper as he matures.

he's a handsome buck I wonder what age he is.


----------



## icboers

No a scrotal split doesn't grow. It might appear to grow as his testicals get larger, but no it doesn't get deeper.

Jester AABG Steam Roller is a 10/29/2009 buck.


----------



## nancy d

:wave: Good stuff here Fellow Goat Dorks! 

Katrina thank you so much for posting all the pics for us to compare the two!
Tell us more about the basket ball head I didnt know they had trouble drinking efficiently. Why is that?

Yes as someone said, you have to put your hands on the animal to really determine, Im still learning that.
Just about anybody can look great in a pic or the ring with a good clip job.

I too prefer 4 working. Two yrs ago an FF had quads her teats are 1+1. I had to supplement the smallest one since he was frequently shoved off the teat. By the time he was weaned (still nursing mom as well as bottles) he was just as large as his litter mates.

I'd like to see a meat buyer choose which one.
:scratch:


----------



## AlaskaBoers

I'd like to see a CARCASS side by side, old vs new sytle... what are your views Karla?


----------



## toth boer goats

> :wave: Good stuff here Fellow Goat Dorks!


 :ROFL: :thumbup:

Aww...Katrina...I love Rush's head shot..... :thumb: :hi5:



> I'd like to see a CARCASS side by side, old vs new sytle.


 Me too..... :thumb:

That is amusing how..... I don't see... no older... new style goats.... :chin:


----------



## AlaskaBoers

that's from a couple months ago, just a snapshot  

I should get another, he's a big guy!


----------



## toth boer goats

Well he is handsome there..... :greengrin:


----------



## mommaB

OK, let me first say, I know NOTHING about boers! 

Now to my opinion  

Those tubular things are WIERD lookin!! :shocked: 

When I think boer, I think BIG, MEATY, THICK!!!!!! Like a brick poo house!!!!

I like em big, I like em chunky!!!! :ROFL: you have to have kids to understand that one!


----------



## icboers

If you have never seen these bucks in person, you can't see how massive and meaty they really are. 

ANR Wide Load is one of the thickest bucks around. He may have a longer neck than the "old" style but he carries just as much meat. Also a lot of the new style goats do not really have longer necks, they just appear that way because the skin is tighter than it is on the old style goats that have all those skin wrinkles on them.

Karla


----------



## toth boer goats

> OK, let me first say, I know NOTHING about boers!
> 
> Now to my opinion
> 
> Those tubular things are WIERD lookin!! :shocked:
> 
> When I think boer, I think BIG, MEATY, THICK!!!!!! Like a brick poo house!!!!
> 
> I like em big, I like em chunky!!!! :ROFL: you have to have kids to understand that one!


 :ROFL:

You are so right... a boer is a meat goat...not a tube sock... :laugh:



> f you have never seen these bucks in person, you can't see how massive and meaty they really are.
> 
> ANR Wide Load is one of the thickest bucks around. He may have a longer neck than the "old" style but he carries just as much meat. Also a lot of the new style goats do not really have longer necks, they just appear that way because the skin is tighter than it is on the old style goats that have all those skin wrinkles on them.
> 
> Karla


New style goats ...do have longer necks........ old style... have more meat on the neck....as a meat goat should.... :wink:

The new style ...with the skin... being to tight...on the chest/neck.... they found ... issues arose....

Judge Dr. Fred Homeyer...does not like the new style ...he is a top judge...and goes all over the world to judge Boers....he loves what he does .....I seen him in person ....and he is very knowledgeable...about the boers .....he teaches and shows you....right there...... the flaws or problems...and the good points in a boer... 
One of His bucks was ....Tarzan T66 ...which has passed away...  but you can see the meat in this goat.....along with size...."Large" and a big caboose.. :laugh:

http://www.tarzant66.com/
http://www.antelopecreek.com/antelopetarzan.html

I recommend any boer breeder to go see him in person and listen to the knowledge he has....he is amazing..... :thumb: 
http://www.idealboergoat.com/

With the new style Boer.... God forbid ....if they head butt an old style boer buck... the spring in the neck ...will be sprung.....LOL


----------



## nancy d

Tube sock" :ROFL: 

Pam can you expound a little on what Homemyer says about them? He once showed us pics with necks that would put any decent Nubian to shame.
I have a couple of T66 grandaughters, they are huge!


----------



## GotmygoatMTJ

Talking on what Katrina said about a boer not being able to be ennobled, partially true. But there is a percentage doe that I have seen in person and on the internet that is disbudded and is a Percentage Doe of Excellence. She occasionally got beat out by does with horns but the judge always said "This doe is beautiful, I just wish she had horns. If she had horns, she would have won this class." But, she does have her PDE sooo....
I do not know how well Fullblood does without horns would do in shows but I do know that Capriole boers in Washington has quite a few does that are disbudded...


----------



## toth boer goats

> Tube sock" :ROFL:
> 
> Pam can you expound a little on what Homemyer says about them? He once showed us pics with necks that would put any decent Nubian to shame.
> I have a couple of T66 grandaughters, they are huge!


 :laugh:

Anywayz..... :laugh: ....Yeah....... but these are boers not nubians... :wink: 

I love to have a tarzan t66 kid...I am hoping one day... it will happen....you are lucky to have them....they are very nice animals...... :thumb:

Homemyer mentioned as follows :

The loose pleated skin on the front of the South African Boer goat... provides a larger skin surface.... to cool the body... in a radiator type fashion. The newer style American Boer Goat ...with very tight skin on the front... may not cool the body as efficiently... :doh:

Care should be taken... not to have too much width in the chest floor... as scapula problems and front-end assembly problems.... can arise... where the shoulders do not tie in correctly with the body ...creating a bulldog like appearance. This is sometimes called... extruded scapula. Structural weakness eventually produces an animal that breaks down under pasture conditions.

Good skeletal dimension ...with a large skull ...is desirable... in order to produce a skeleton that supports lots of meat and muscle. A large amount of muscle or meat... is what makes the Boer goat desirable... in the first place.

Bucks... that are too feminine.... may tend to produce... ultra-fragile does with very light bone.... that may not have survivability in a pasture environment.

A doe that produces and raises ...multiple kids ...per breeding... is ultimately a greater red meat producer... than a doe that raises only a single kid per breeding.
In South Africa... when the goats are gathered up... from the mountains perhaps twice a year: if the doe is not trailing twin kids by her side ...she is sold for meat. Good maternal traits with multiple kid production annually is a very desirable property..... In South Africa... it is all about... efficient meat production and commercial viability of the animal. Eventually... this will be the case... in the United States as well.

So there you have a short discussion ...of why certain desirable physical traits are
necessary in the South African Boer goat in order to insure a goat that has survivability, adaptability, fertility, a calm disposition, good mothering ability and can make a living under harsh conditions with low quality food. When raised according to the South African Standards the Boer goat... truly is an efficient meat production system... in the pasture and is the meat goat of the world.

References:

"Breed Standards of the Improved Boer Goat", American Boer Goat Association.

"A study of the SA Boer Goat or 'n Studie van die SA Boerbok", South African Boer
Breeders Association, Middelberg Eastern Cape, South Africa, 2006.

"Selection and Evaluation", a paper by Preston R. Farris, Preston's Perspective Agri-
Resource Consulting and Dr. Frank Craddock, Texas Cooperative Extension.

You may contact Dr. Fred C. Homeyer, at Antelope Creek Ranch, Box 47, Robert Lee, TX
76945: Phone 800-294-1052. Email: [email protected], website: http://www.antelopecreek.
com


----------



## nancy d

Thanks so much Pam! 
The South Africans have been doing this a whole lot longer than we have in the US.
Every attribute or disqualification has practical and functional reasons listed in "A Study of SA Boer Goat", which all line up to what you have just posted.


----------



## toth boer goats

Your so welcome Nancy D... :thumb: 

So correct .......they know how to make em.......... :wink: :thumb: :hi5:


----------



## TheMixedBag

Just to pop in and give my opinion....

A "style" of animal, be it goats, sheep, horses or cattle, will depend entirely on the show-ring and what judges and groups decide is a good standard. One of the best examples of this happening is the American Quarter Horse. Take one look at a champion halter horse and tell me how that thing's supposed to function, and you'll have your answer as to how people think the "tubular" boer goat is supposed to function as a sturdy, well-producing meat animal.

Actually, they kinda remind me of dachshunds. Seriously. Probably come with the same amount of back problems, too. I may not be an expert on meat goats but I would think if you tried to put the weight and width of the older style goats onto the newer style, they'd break down far quicker than they already seem to be.


----------



## AlaskaBoers

good points, though I'm interested if you can find a few examples of horses. I don't know much conformation on them.


----------



## TheMixedBag

I can provide examples of quarter horses and racing-type thoroughbreds, not so much other breeds.

Peppy San Badger-fairly famous older Quarter Horse stallion:









6x GCH 7x RGCH "halter" stallion:


----------



## toth boer goats

Yeah... but... when it is found ....that genetic flaws and shorter life.... on an animal....are effected.... I don't see it ...as worth the while....even if ...a certain judge likes them... in the ring....and it is most likely a wether judge ...as wethers are build kinda.... in that fashion sort of speak....but alot smaller........ 
old style .....are meat goats....and are built tough.....withstand alot more.. in the worst of conditions....and.... last for years......I have a old style herd queen Doe.... that is 9 years old....has no problems kidding and still looks good...Katrina has her son "Rush" .......this is proof ...of the longevity of the old style boer....I would rather have... the old style for years...compared to the new style ......only for maybe a couple......anywayz.....there is a pic of Lilly( my 9 yr old) that Katrina(Alaska Boers displayed of her higher on this page....this was taken this last summer 2010...

remember.... not all judges.... like the new style animals....but.... it is just like with color....being it paint...solid red...spotted.... there are judges... that won't even bat an eye at them...because that judge is still set on .. traditional standards..... I have seen a beautiful old style paint... get thrown out of the ring....when they where just appearing.... in... the show rings..... So ....of course it depends on who the judge is.... at the time you are showing......
Also.... Associations.... have rules and standards ...and it is of ...the old style boer..... :thumb: 

Horses and other types of animals... are different then goats....each are unique in there own way.... and yes... it depends on the judge...his / her preferences....the same as goats..........

When the top of the line.... #1 Judge ...doesn't like them...that should say something..... :wink: Just my :2cents: :2cents:


----------



## TheMixedBag

It was just something I'm starting to notice with all show animals-what the top animals look like is what the "Big $$" breeders breed and what the standard seems to change to every time around. It's not really just the judges, it's what the breeders, and the groups, and everyone else involved for money do. Quarter horses are just a pretty noticeable example of it happening, and it looks like boer goats are too.

Just another opinion, since you mentioned the genetic flaws and longevity-with some of the big name breeders (all animals, again), it doesn't seem to matter, and that's what helps get the "trendy style" going, regardless of whether it's beneficial to anything but show scores and profits off animals sold, bred to, etc. I think it's pretty well true all the way through, since even #1 judges are giving animals like that 2nd stallion top placings.

So, that's where I get the general idea that a good show goat is good, but a good performing goat is better, and worth a lot more.


----------



## ()relics

toth boer goats said:


> ....but.... it is just like with color....being it paint...solid red...spotted.... there are judges... that won't even bat an eye at them...because that judge is still set on .. traditional standards..... I have seen a beautiful old style paint... get thrown out of the ring....when they where just appearing.... in... the show rings..... So ....of course it depends on who the judge is.... at the time you are showing......
> Also.... Associations.... have rules and standards ...and it is of ...the old style boer.....


...fact...I have seen my colored wethers placed farther down in a class for no other reason than because they weren't traditionals...Part of the reason I moved away from a red buck several years ago. Technically, if you carefully read the standard there is little room for anything other than a traditionally marked animal.


----------



## GotmygoatMTJ

Ive never had the problem with my colored boer wethers placing badly because of their color. My red wether even got Reserve Grand. A black and white wether I had placed 4th out of 9 at the Regionals in Al a few years ago up against many a good breeder. The judge said "this wether has the strongest topline in the class". He was the only black wether in the show.


----------



## toth boer goats

> Ive never had the problem with my colored boer wethers placing badly because of their color. My red wether even got Reserve Grand. A black and white wether I had placed 4th out of 9 at the Regionals in Al a few years ago up against many a good breeder. The judge said "this wether has the strongest topline in the class". He was the only black wether in the show.


 it is... personal preference of the judge.... most judges.... judge on what "they like"..... and not the proper way... by boer standards.....and by association.. show standards...I have seen it...myself ...over and over again..... it isn't right ...and they need to stick to the book..... that is why..... they make show rules..... or so I thought.... :shrug: :wink:


----------



## AlaskaBoers

technically. You cannot base your opinion of a goat on the color. 
it's all the judges 'preference' 

Market wethers are 'up in the air' because they're USUALLY CROSSBRED with a dairy goat. they can be dappled for all I care. 
It is hard to look past color though.. really a well finished red wether will look more muscled because the red will make the 'cuts' in the muscling appear deeper.


----------



## Stooter

The reason for the tubular look is That in a commercial slaughter situation there is less trimming of the carcass which makes for a higher yield which equals more profit.


----------



## mmiller

LOTS of good info on here everyone!! An just in time Im buck hunting right now... I have to admit I like the capes on the tubular bucks but I want the cape on an old style buck. Thank you for the pic post of the different styles to help us compare. I might post some pics of bucks Im interested in so I can get everyones 2 cents... 

TheMixedBag- I agree 1000% with you on the halter horses... While they are pretty to look at they can not perform the things a Quarter horse was breed for...

PAM- I have been to your website several times when I first got into boers to get an idea of what a boer should look like... I am headed there now to look at your bucks...


----------



## alliecat23

Just a little input on the quarter horses bred for halter make amazing barrel/game horses a lot of my friends that race but halter horses yes of course when you go to the world show they are built up so much they don't have that natural movement... That's just my two cents


----------



## toth boer goats

mmiller said:


> LOTS of good info on here everyone!! An just in time Im buck hunting right now... I have to admit I like the capes on the tubular bucks but I want the cape on an old style buck. Thank you for the pic post of the different styles to help us compare. I might post some pics of bucks Im interested in so I can get everyones 2 cents...
> 
> TheMixedBag- I agree 1000% with you on the halter horses... While they are pretty to look at they can not perform the things a Quarter horse was breed for...
> 
> PAM- I have been to your website several times when I first got into boers to get an idea of what a boer should look like... I am headed there now to look at your bucks...


 LOL, when you coming. 

I agree, this is a good educational post. If you get pics of a buck, make a new post to post them. This is a pretty old Topic and I want your post to get noticed better.


----------



## okiemama

toth boer goats said:


> Yeah... but... when it is found ....that genetic flaws and shorter life.... on an animal....are effected.... I don't see it ...as worth the while....even if ...a certain judge likes them... in the ring....and it is most likely a wether judge ...as wethers are build kinda.... in that fashion sort of speak....but alot smaller........
> old style .....are meat goats....and are built tough.....withstand alot more.. in the worst of conditions....and.... last for years......I have a old style herd queen Doe.... that is 9 years old....has no problems kidding and still looks good...Katrina has her son "Rush" .......this is proof ...of the longevity of the old style boer....I would rather have... the old style for years...compared to the new style ......only for maybe a couple......anywayz.....there is a pic of Lilly( my 9 yr old) that Katrina(Alaska Boers displayed of her higher on this page....this was taken this last summer 2010...
> 
> remember.... not all judges.... like the new style animals....but.... it is just like with color....being it paint...solid red...spotted.... there are judges... that won't even bat an eye at them...because that judge is still set on .. traditional standards..... I have seen a beautiful old style paint... get thrown out of the ring....when they where just appearing.... in... the show rings..... So ....of course it depends on who the judge is.... at the time you are showing......
> Also.... Associations.... have rules and standards ...and it is of ...the old style boer..... :thumb:
> 
> Horses and other types of animals... are different then goats....each are unique in there own way.... and yes... it depends on the judge...his / her preferences....the same as goats..........
> 
> When the top of the line.... #1 Judge ...doesn't like them...that should say something..... :wink: Just my :2cents: :2cents:


I've been following this thread because I'm pretty interested in the traditional vs tubular I had noticed looking at old/new pics of boers that there was a distinct shift in the appearance I didn't know it had a name (tubular fits perfect) with that said I have to ask what is up with all the periods? Does this mean somethin in internet jargon that I don't know?


----------

