# disbudding with clove oil



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

In a fb sight some one has tried this and showed the head of a goat, 2 weeks after injection...it looked great...never heard of this...
Thoughts??

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4405681/


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

If it killed horn tissue, would it be a risk of eating through the skull if you injected in the wrong place?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Pretty hard to miss the horn bud, there's a nice stomach turning crunch when you put the needle through.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

That's amazing. I'd like to give that a try someday.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Pretty hard to miss the horn bud, there's a nice stomach turning crunch when you put the needle through.


That sounds like the voice of experience?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I've seen horn bud injections done. They are really horrible, extremely painful, and make the kid sick for couple days.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

...sounds horrid Jill. This gal said her vet did the deed...4 injections per side with a 18 g needle..he dosed .2cc on each bud total..she he didnt cry..did well and went on like nothing


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Oh gosh. Any other experience? Maybe it's gotten better?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I wonder if they are actually putting it in the horn buds like the study says though, If it just the horn bud region, that wouldn't be too bad.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

My mom and I don't much mind injections. Would you mind messaging me which facebook group this was on? I'd like to do more research.


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## DonnaBelle66 (Mar 4, 2013)

My vet explained to me that the horn buds contain cells which make the horns grow. When you do a bad disbudding job those cells escape and migrate to surrounding area and start to grow. Hence the Scurs. If you do a good job early on....5-10 days after birth, Scurs are much less likely to occur. Most people under burn and have bad consequences. We burn early, and down to white. We have a disbudding box and a Rhinehart 50 that gets really hot. We haven't had Scurs lately.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

That's why I'm wanting polled genes in my herd..


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

janeen128 said:


> That's why I'm wanting polled genes in my herd..


That's one reason I don't want to sell my one polled doeling! Lol!


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm going to be looking for polled bucks form now on. I just bought a Nigerian buck to start raising minis. The first one I chose was polled. Awesome breeding, udders etc, but an awful escape artist. Sigh. I was so hoping to get some kids that didn't need their heads fried.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

It'll be a priority here as well when it's time for a new boy.


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## OKCGoatLady (Aug 17, 2015)

The Facebook group talking about it is Goat Health and Care. https://www.facebook.com/groups/349359988418734/973506802670713


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

also here

https://www.facebook.com/groups/392016800960503/


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't facebook, so if it is something that really works for goats, can someone pm me with the info? 
Thanks!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Here is a good read Goats rock

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4405681/


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## bifrost (Jul 2, 2012)

Goats Rock said:


> I don't facebook, so if it is something that really works for goats, can someone pm me with the info?
> Thanks!


The actual article is online, not on Facebook. They are just discussing the possibility of it on the FB groups. The link to the study is in the first comment.

I'm planning to take it to my vet and ask her to read it and see if she can find out anything more and help me do it for the first time next Spring. She's a really good goat vet and will probably enjoy the challenge.


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## CaprineDream (Aug 22, 2014)

Following. I've been wondering about this.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

It looks like a fascinating study! Inject clove oil and ta-da! Done with disbudding!


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Ugh.. no.. that sounds terrible. What's wrong with the old fashioned way of burning the bud. It seems new inventions are always trying to make this disbudding easier but in reality, what could be quicker and easier than burning the little caps. If done early enough, it should not be a problem. I suspect that to be true in ANY horn removal. Most problems seem to occur by waiting too long and trying to disbud after the little horn bud is firmly attached to the skull and if this 'new' clove oil method is not done early enough - then.. I would truly believe it to create a problem too. Even if clove oil is natural.. it can still cause some problems. This sounds very experimental. I would think it could be quite expensive and cause issues if not done properly or early enough..


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

And doesn't clove oil burn tissue? I don't remember for sure. What if this gets into the blood stream in a concentrated form? With any new method- especially injections of any substance into the body, I would be extremely careful. I suppose for most, burning is more traumatic. Its traumatic for us, but we just get it done and over with quickly. My biggest concern is the newness of it all and the risks.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Clove is a Hot oil...and when using on the skin should be diluted...I think this is just another choice. I would like to see a few more runs at it before we tried..because Im chicken lol..but from what the gal said when her vet did it for her...her little man didn't even peep and only scratched his head a little once done, that is a plus.....I would..IF I was to do it..buy a pure therapeutic oil...just because it is injected..


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## Greybird (May 14, 2014)

It looks like an interesting, and maybe even better, alternative to burning, but I would want to see a lot more research on it before I got brave enough to try it.

If it turns out to be safe and 100% successful then - hey! That's great, because numerous kids die from disbudding every single year. It just needs a lot more testing, IMO.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I guess, no matter how the buds get removed, there will be trauma. Personally, that is the 2nd worst
thing I have to do to baby goat kids. But, horns (around here) are a big no-no for the dairy and show goats.
There is no easy way- I venture to say- whatever works best with the least amount of trauma to the goat is the way to go!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

more testing is a good idea...someone has to break the ice to new ideas...but I agree its a viable choice if it works...I look forward to reading the outcome of the one gal who tried it...


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## Mandara Farm (Sep 12, 2010)

Interesting! We're breeding this year for the first time, and gosh I've been dreading the whole disbudding thing! I use and sell high quality essential oils, and clove is definitely a hot oil, like HappyBleats mentioned. Most of us know clove as something really good for toothaches, but it's also a potent disinfectant. This is from my reference book, "Clove is valuable as a drawing salve. It helps pull infection from tissues." OTOH, injections (tense face). I do use oils with my goats for various things, but I would only do the injections if I had a vet I Really Really trusted...


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## RosebayRidgeNigerians (May 14, 2014)

This sounds risky on a number of countd. First of all, the clove oil ,though antimicrobial to a certain degree, is not a sterile solution. Vets will say, it's not good practice toninject anything under skin or intramuscularly that is not sterile. Secondly, clove oil is caustic in undiluted form, meaning that it causes a chemical burn. It is probably this action which destroys the bone stem cells of the horn bud. Clove oil does have anaesthetic properties too, and many if not all dentists use it in compounds for fillings and root canals. I'm not sure this is an improvement over burning.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

Clove oil sounds like another form of caustic paste...except it is injected instead of applied topically. Sounds painful!
I'll stick with the disbudding iron.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ah ... wow?? Interesting ...

I would love to see a pic of the area/wound after disbudding this way ... but I don't facebook either ... or is there simply no wound to show?

I like the idea. I'm not sure I'd be game to try it.

I don't typically disbud my goats, as I don't have the stomach for the burning ... but the heads stuck in fences while they are the wrong length irritates something dreadful ... when my doelings are about a year old I let them out several times a day. Fortunately the square mesh fences are all near the house. I don't like horns on my bucks. My big boy was disbudded by the breeder ... my young one (who I hadn't planned on keeping until after he was 4 months old) I banded last year ... but one day I'll want to keep another. Not soon, but one day.

I have a young doe kid I'm keeping this year ... she's about 9 days old now ... but even though it would be great for her not to get stuck in fences ... I don't think I'm game just yet! The comment on the needle crunching is almost stomach turning ... lol ...

Comments on the method ...
Well ... as a herbalist, I can tell you that it is generally considered unsafe to use strong essential oils internally. Pure essential oils are not generally used at all. As a general rule, no-one would dream of injecting any, and for very good reason.
However, as they are intended to burn/corrode in this case, and are inserted directly in the horn bud ... I think those problems are not valid in this case.

The potential pain is hard to predict ... obviously anything that burns and is injected has the potential to hurt terribly for quite a while.
However, as someone has already mentioned, clove oil is a strong topical anesthetic. It is applied directly to open raw tooth cavities and only gives relief from pain. So it may be that in the horn bud it is its own local anesthetic.

A poster said she'd seen horn injections before and they were extremely painful. I'd like to know for sure whether these were clove oil injections, or some other chemical substance? As it is not specified ... other chemicals may certainly hurt much worse!

I would also note that there is bound to be less raw open wound when done by injection than by burning or caustic. This is surely a good thing.

Removing the risk, even a low one, of head trauma and potential kid deaths is also excellent.

All in all, I'm for it ... not game to try it yet perhaps ... but I think it is a great idea with much potential.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I saw the picture on facebook - the horn area looked bald, but not caustic.


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

I read the study in the link and would be very interested in trying it. Woo hoo!, something new to study. I love goats, always something new to learn.


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## JSBarrett (May 22, 2012)

Barnes19 said:


> I would love to see a pic of the area/wound after disbudding this way ... but I don't facebook either ... or is there simply no wound to show?


The article linked at the head of this thread also contains photos showing the results.


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