# Doe not feeding twins



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

My doe is not feeding her 11 day old twins. She takes care of them in every other way but does not want them to nurse :shrug: Last night we held her while they nursed and they ate forever. I have observed her feed them for maybe 2 seconds at a time and then she backs away. I can continue to force her to feed them but it seems to really stress her out. Also I am pretty sure they were starving because they were trying to nurse on everything and the doeling was sucking on the buckling's private area we had to remove her numerous times before we forced Mom to feed them. Before we forced her to feed them we tried to milk her but we are not experienced enough and she was even more stressed. We gave her warm molasses water after they were done eating. She is eating, drinking, peeing, and pooping normally. Does anyone know any tricks to get my doe to nurse the babies. She did not have any problems until a couple days ago. Thanks for any advice.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would take a good look at her teats and udder. I would milk her a little and make sure all is ok.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Check her udder and teats for cuts, abrasions, sores, etc.
I've had does that don't stand for very long, just a few seconds at a time, that raised babies fine, but your doe sounds like she is taking this to an extreme. They do sound hungry from what you described. I've found that often times with my goats, the "stressed out" routine is mostly a bluff. Once they figure out you aren't going to take "no" for an answer, they will quit fighting you when you hold them for the kids. Check her udder to make sure she doesn't have a legitimate excuse for acting the way she is, otherwise, hold her a few times a day to let those kids nurse.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Everything seems fine to me, I got a little milk out last night but babies had milk mustaches when I forced her to feed them so I know I am just not milking right. Also this is my first time having kids so not sure what I am looking for. Udder is not hot and appears to be ok. I will check for sores on teats. Anything else I might be looking for?


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Tenacross said:


> Check her udder and teats for cuts, abrasions, sores, etc.
> I've had does that don't stand for very long, just a few seconds at a time, that raised babies fine, but your doe sounds like she is taking this to an extreme. They do sound hungry from what you described. I've found that often times with my goats, the "stressed out" routine is mostly a bluff. Once they figure out you aren't going to take "no" for an answer, they will quit fighting you when you hold them for the kids. Check her udder to make sure she doesn't have a legitimate excuse for acting the way she is, otherwise, hold her a few times a day to let those kids nurse.


Will do thank you so much.


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I agree. Check her udder really well. She may be chapped and sore. I wouldn't want anything sucking on me either if that's the case! You'll need to get some ointment of some kind for her....We've used vegetable oil if we have nothing else available. It won't hurt the babies to suck it off and it will help keep the udder from chapping.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

kccjer said:


> I agree. Check her udder really well. She may be chapped and sore. I wouldn't want anything sucking on me either if that's the case! You'll need to get some ointment of some kind for her....We've used vegetable oil if we have nothing else available. It won't hurt the babies to suck it off and it will help keep the udder from chapping.


Waiting for help to check her udder really well. Can we put antibiotic ointment on it if it is sore or chapped? Also have eucerin and aveno lotion. Thank you so much.


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I personally wouldn't use those. The neosporin is intended for topical use only....and have you ever tasted the other 2??? :greengrin: LOL I'd use vegetable oil, margarine, crisco, etc before any of those. As soon as you can get to the farm supply, buy some bag ointment....just read the label and make sure the kids can't get sick from it.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Update: My doe is still not wanting to feed them but is not resisting as much when we hold her down to feed them. Nothing on her udder or teats, I even compared them to my 2 other does who are nursing. The buckling does a rough head butting when he is nursing so maybe she does not like it, looks painful. We are not allowing him to do it when we are holding her to nurse them. Hopefully he will calm down a little and she will start nursing on her own.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

To me if she was willingly nursing them before than something hurts. Maybe the boy is being too rough.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> To me if she was willingly nursing them before than something hurts. Maybe the boy is being too rough.


Should we continue to do what we are doing and keep him from butting her and holding her down? Or should we try to bottle feed him and see if she will willingly feed the other? I've tried to have each individual kid nurse but she backs away or moves away from both. I will try the vegetable oil and see if that helps and get bag ointment if it does. Anything else I could be doing to help all of them? :chin:


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can try pulling the boy. It is just going to be a matter of trying different things until something works.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

I decided to weigh all my kids because I am worried that the little doeling is not getting enough and I am not sure if she is growing properly. I compared all 5 of my kids growth to hers and she has gained the least per day. I will list all their growths per day so you guys can better decide if she is ok. The oldest and biggest growth was 0.29 lbs a day he is a 20 day old buckling and a single. This doe's kids are 16 days old and the buckling is gaining 0.175 a day. Her doeling is gaining 0.093 lbs per day. The youngest doelings are 13 days old and have gained 0.123 and 0.115 per day. All does are Pygmy/ nigerian dwarf crosses. 

Does this growth sound ok for her twins? 

The doeling is the weakest out of all the kids but is getting around just at a slower clumsier pace then the rest. She has always been this way. She appears fragile compared to the rest and seems to have less energy.

Any input would help. Thanks


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If the doeling has been weak this whole time then you need to pull her. That is not a good weight gain. I would also give her BoSe and B Complex.

If mom is still fighting it, then maybe it would be easier to bottle feed both kids and milk her. I would use her milk to bottle them.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> If the doeling has been weak this whole time then you need to pull her. That is not a good weight gain. I would also give her BoSe and B Complex.
> 
> If mom is still fighting it, then maybe it would be easier to bottle feed both kids and milk her. I would use her milk to bottle them.


Ok thank you we will do, I tried to get BoSe from the vet and he did not think it was important but will try again, if he will not give it what can I get OTC at the Co Op or tractor supply? This is the only livestock vet in our area.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

There is a selenium/vitamin E gel you can get OTC.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Is she super full and tight with milk? If so, milk out enough to make her less sore and tight, it hurts, if she is too tight, she won't allow the kids to nurse. 
Relieve her some, then try the kids on her. 

Bumping the udder by the kid is a normal and healthy thing to do and helps milk letdown. Don't stop the kid from doing it.

Has she had bonding time alone with them? Or has she been with other goats around her at kidding time and thereafter?


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> Is she super full and tight with milk? If so, milk out enough to make her less sore and tight, it hurts, if she is too tight, she won't allow the kids to nurse.
> Relieve her some, then try the kids on her.
> 
> Bumping the udder by the kid is a normal and healthy thing to do and helps milk letdown. Don't stop the kid from doing it.
> ...


She had the first 14 days with them and we let her out maybe 5 days out of those days with the other 2 does that kidded. Also let just the does out without kids several short periods throughout most days. The rest of the days were raining, snowing, or freezing and I was worried the kids could not handle being out. 2 days ago after she started having this problem I brought her and the kids out with the 2 other does because I thought maybe she was upset she was not with them and able to get out due to weather. She did not do any better so I built her an area where she could be with them but seperated. This didn't work either and she seemed happier with everyone. I decided at night they will be locked together but during the day they can be with everyone. I have observed her feed the at least 4 times today the longest time was for 30 seconds. They continue to try to eat but she backs away. She also seems to tell them when they can eat because she makes a noise and they run to her so fast it is crazy and she lets them eat for a couple seconds. Her udder does not seem extremley full, I have been putting vegetable oil on it in case I missed something. I am having a very hard time milking her but I have never milked anything before. LOL. Currently they are all out with the herd because it has warmed up and everyone has been cooped up. She is the Herd Queen and no one really messes with her. Besides the does and kids we have 2 pygmy wethers and a young pygmy doe. She is getting free choice hay, free choice manna pro goat minerals, BOSS, alphalfa pellets, and grain mixed together. I give 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup at night but was going to start lessening the amount a little over time because she does not need extra weight and appears to be getting a little larger on this amount. We are going to continue to try to milk her and bottle feed the kids. I could not get BoSe from the vet and could not find the gel in the store so I ordered from Jeffers. The kids have a creep feeder and the buckling uses it but the doeling has no interest in the grain even with continuous attempts putting her in and watching her brother eat it. Both kids eat the minerals. Sorry I am rambling but I do not want either one to get sick or hurt and do not know if I am doing or trying enough.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She had the bonding time then to start. 

If she is doing OK with the kids out with everyone, I would leave her with the others in the day and night.

Be aware Does do feed their kids frequently, but, little amounts at a time.So that is normal. It is natures way to protect the kids from over eating, which can kill them. The best way to know if they are getting enough is, pick them up and feel their bellies, around the flank tummy area, are they full or empty? 

With momma talking to them indicates, she loves and is caring for them. 

If she isn't full in the udder, her kids may be nursing it out which is good, but she does need enough to be able to keep their tummies full or at least have a normal feeling belly. Not overly full but not empty. It doesn't have to be super full just make sure they have something in there. 
You will know if a kid isn't getting enough, they will feel empty and will cry out more or be weak and hunching
.
You don't need to put vegetable oil on her udder if her udder is OK. But if you use something, Udder balm is better and made for udder care. 

You say you can't get milk out. 
With milking, take your index finger and thumb and at the top area of the teat, gently pinch together your 2 fingers together, no hard pressure but firm enough to trap milk into the teat. Be gentle. Then, with your middle finger, ring finger and pinky, gently squeeze the teat with those 3 fingers, still holding together at the top area with thumb and index finger. You should get a good stream of milk out, release all fingers, then repeat the same way each time. If you are not getting any milk out or if you do and it is stringy, really thick, bloody, discolored, clumpy, it is mastitis. Does her udder feel hot? 

If her milk is OK, but she needs more for her kids supply. Keep Alfalfa and grain going, it helps build her milk if she doesn't have enough for the kids. The important part is, is her kids getting enough and are their bellies full, if not and you are not getting milk out, or a tiny squirt, she may not have enough, unless her kids are OK, that is why you need to continue feeding her Alfalfa and grain right now. 
Make sure, she drinks plenty of water as well. This all builds milk along with her kids bumping and nursing for the kids demand. 

How old are the kids?


With starting to grain of the kids. If one kid doesn't want to eat the grain. I take the kid, sit down, have some grain and put it into the mouth, they will spit it out like it is the worse thing ever, but, I hold their mouths lightly closed, after I put some in there, so they do not spit all of it out and are forced to eat a little bit and taste it. I do this a few times and do this periodically throughout the day each day. The kid needs to build a taste for it, eventually the kid will start eating it on their own, I find some will start eating it from my hand then I know they ares starting on it. 
With some kids it takes longer to adapt but for others it is a few times of this.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Thank you for the advice Toth boer goats. The kids are 17 days old today. I am going to go check her milk supply now and check for any of the things you mentioned. I noticed this morning that Mom was a little off and not inhaling her food like normal. I had to really coax her to eat so I am going take her temp also and make homemade electrolytes for her. When she gave birth I had to assist and did not think I had time to run back to the house to scrub up. I awoke from bed because my little wether boy who was housed next to her was screaming and I heard him on the moniter and did not know how long she had been struggling so I immediately helped her. The buckling's front leg was turned back. She did not get any antibiotic because I was unsure if it was required. Will keep you posted on them thanks again.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Rhandi74 said:


> S I have observed her feed the at least 4 times today the longest time was for 30 seconds. They continue to try to eat but she backs away. She also seems to tell them when they can eat because she makes a noise and they run to her so fast it is crazy and she lets them eat for a couple seconds. .


This is *normal* for some does. The dead give away is she calls to them and they come running. She is not necessarily a bad mother. She has trained them and demands their respect. It drives me crazy to watch this sort of doe behavior too, but often times the kids grow out just fine. 30 seconds is not bad.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Her temp is normal 102.4. Milk is good, only got a little out but again I believe it is me, I think I will get better with more experience, I have seen milk dripping down the side of their mouths after eating. LOL. The kids bellies are not empty and they are not more vocal then the other kids. About how much Alfalfa pellets should she be getting? She weighs about 60 lbs. Currently the mix I feed is 40% grain, 40% alfalfa, and 20% boss. So if my math is right she gets about four fifths of a cup of both grain and alfalfa each day and about two fifths of a cup of boss a day. This is what I am feeding all the lactating does. Attaching pics of kids tummies and Mom's udder so you can see.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Rhandi74 said:


> I have seen milk dripping down the side of their mouths after eating. LOL. The kids bellies are not empty and they are not more vocal then the other kids. .


More signs that all is normal. Be careful not to fix what isn't broken.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Sorry pics did not attach. Here they are.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

^ Aww... They look healthy to me.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

The Kid and her udder look good. 

Smell her vulva area does it stink? If so, it could be an infection starting from going in.

Her temp is normal which is good.

Give her fortified vit B complex shot and probiotics for a few days her rumen may be off. 

Also check her gums and lower eyelid membrane coloring. Just in case.

Do you have a goatie sweater, the kid looks possibly cold.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> The Kid and her udder look good.
> 
> Smell her vulva area does it stink? If so, it could be an infection starting from going in.
> 
> ...


 We have sweaters for all the kids but we are currently at 51 degrees with it feeling like the actual temp per weather report and will only drop to 48 degrees tonight. A couple of days ago we were only at 3 degrees and had snow and ice. Will it be ok to put sweaters on with these temps? The kids were housed in a different area with the does during the freezing temps and not let out in the snow. No stinky vulva on the doe but she does have way more bloody discharge then the other does that kidded and her gums and lower lids are pink. I also completely enclosed the goat shelter before freezing temps hit for the other goats. I attached some pics of their creep feeder, front of enclosed shelter, and the last two is how I found my other does kids when I went out to check to check on her. I thought it was to cute not to share.


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

They look good to me ... normal, healthy, happy, certainly not hollow.

Mum's udder is about what a doe feeding her kids would look like ... they keep them pretty empty.

How often is she letting them feed for those few seconds? It is pretty normal for a doe to only feed them for short bursts, one of mine feeds for about 20 seconds most of the time, but does it really often.

Basically the kid rushes on, butts 2 or 3 times in a desperate attempt to get as much as possible before mum moves, gets a few sucks in, and mum moves off. But the proccess is repeated several times an hour, and they're constantly topped up.

If that is happening, then mums udder will be virtually empty all the time, and not an easy milk to get the little thats there.

I'd suggest you separate the kids for a few hours or overnight, milk out the bulk of it in the morning and feed them, then put them back together. If she's producing plenty and they're feeding little and often you'll be amazed at the amount she's accumulated.

It'll also be easier to try your hand at milking.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

They sound good, no, if it is that warm, they do not need the sweaters.

Glad Momma doesn't smell but moderate that. Discharge is normal, some have quite a bit come out, which is good, she is cleaning out, you want that. 

As to the appetite loss, give her fortified vitB complex shot and probiotics for a few days. Her rumen may be off, seeings how her temp is normal.
But I have to say, no grain until she is better.

Her gums sound good.

The kids look good and are adorable, keep checking their bellies to ensure they are getting enough.

Glad you are careful when the temps go really cold or sub temperature.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Barnes19 said:


> They look good to me ... normal, healthy, happy, certainly not hollow.
> 
> Mum's udder is about what a doe feeding her kids would look like ... they keep them pretty empty.
> 
> ...


She does not feed them often when I am around, maybe one time in an hour. My other 2 does feed their kids much much more then she does. I do not think she wants anyone around them when she is feeding though. I often observe them nursing when I am checking on them and she will stop because I am there. Or one of the other kids gets to close. They frequently try to nurse and she does not allow them to. When I do see her decide to nurse she walks far away from everyone and makes a noise and they know she will let them eat. She must be feeding more when I am not around because they are not sick. I will try the separating them a couple of hours and seeing if I can milk more and feed them.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She sounds OK, just feel the kids tummies, to ensure they have milk in them and not starving. 

She isn't feeling well, so that may be another reason she isn't allowing them to nurse as frequent. 

I feel, if you separate them from her, she will stress out a lot. If she has appetite loss now, that may make her worse.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> She sounds OK, just feel the kids tummies, to ensure they have milk in them and not starving.
> 
> She isn't feeling well, so that may be another reason she isn't allowing them to nurse as frequent.
> 
> I feel, if you separate them from her, she will stress out a lot. If she has appetite loss now, that may make her worse.


Thank you again, will hold off on separating and continue to monitor them. I am out there frequently anyways because they are so fun to watch and I love spending time with my goats. :grin:


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

No problem. 

I know I love watching new babies too, so precious. ;-)

How is her appetite?


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> No problem.
> 
> I know I love watching new babies too, so precious. ;-)
> 
> How is her appetite?


She seems great today and eating like normal. Other then her being annoyed with me because she did not get grain, she was her normal super friendly self. I also only held her down to feed them in the morning yesterday and then decided I was probably causing more harm to all of them after all the advice I got and stopped. If she seems ok the rest of the day should I allow her to have her evening grain? Also how long on the probiotics? Is it a one time thing or should I continue to give it to her x amount of days? Thank you so much and I love having all these knowledgable people on here to help me learn.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I wait a least 2 days after they are doing better to give grain again, start out slowly, with just a little, so she can adjust to it again.

Probiotics can be given every day, if a Doe is off feed, I give it until better, then 1 more day for GP along with Fortified vit B complex, that helps put thiamine back.


----------



## Taffy (Dec 9, 2011)

Check her for mastititis. She may be in pain and it hurts to let them nurse.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Taffy said:


> Check her for mastititis. She may be in pain and it hurts to let them nurse.


I told her to check and she says the milk is fine. :-D


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How are things?


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> How are things?


Everyone is doing good. My doe still seems great and eating and acting herself. I did hold her 2 times yesterday because the kids just kept trying to nurse over and over and she would not let them. She did not fight me at all and I only let them nurse 30 secs each time. Today the kids seem great, I have not seen them nurse but they are not continuing to try to nurse over and over. They are using their creep feeder and both kids are eating grain and straw. My doe started back on grain today and is still doing great. I gave her a quarter cup this morning and plan on working back up to 1 cup twice a day. Can I get her back up to her regular feeding in a week? Or is that to fast or slow? Thank you again for all your help.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so happy to hear, they are still doing well. 

To increase in a weeks time, from a 1/4 cup to 1 cup, may be a bit fast, it is better to go slow.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> I am so happy to hear, they are still doing well.
> 
> To increase in a weeks time, from a 1/4 cup to 1 cup, may be a bit fast, it is better to go slow.


Ok will go slower. Thanks again :smile:


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

No problem.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Update: We had a really cold spell for our area yesterday and Buttercup's buckling was shivering last night. When I went out this morning he was still shivering. I took his temp and it was 97.7 so we decided he needs to come in and be bottle fed. We are warming him up now and then going to give probios and vit e selinium gel. We are probably going to bring his twin in so he has a buddy but I don't want to stress Buttercup out. She had clumpy poop last night. Gave her probios and b complex and she seems fine this morning. Any help on getting him to take the bottle would be greatly appreciated. Also do I have to heat Buttercup's milk before feeding him? What temp does it need to be if we do? He was born on the 26th of December about how much and how many times does he need to be fed?


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Well I decided to just bring Buttercup in with them, she was very upset. Can she go in and out? So she can get some exercise and be with the rest of the herd.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Bringing them in and out is dangerous,could make her sick, if the one kid is healthy, I would leave it out with momma and not bring in Buttercup.

Can you get a heat lamp and put it out there, for the shivering kid, after you get the temp to 100 degree's minimum and get the kid to nurse? 
That way, momma can take care of baby and all will be warm and happier together.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> Bringing them in and out is dangerous,could make her sick, if the one kid is healthy, I would leave it out with momma and not bring in Buttercup.
> 
> Can you get a heat lamp and put it out there, for the shivering kid, after you get the temp to 100 degree's minimum and get the kid to nurse?
> That way, momma can take care of baby and all will be warm and happier together.


Oops...I brought them all in. When I got home from running errands everyone was doing well. I decided there is no way I can leave Buttercup trapped in the house because that is not fair to her. We took Rudy, the bucklings temp and it was back up to normal. I also saw them both nurse so we took them all back outside. I could not figure out how to secure the heat lamp in order to not start a fire so currently they do not have one. We tried to slowly acclimate them to the outside temp but Rudy was still shivering a little when I came back in, not very much though. I plan on going back out to check his temp when all the human kids are tucked in bed. I hope all is well and they can all be together. Thank you for the advice.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Yay...no temp and no shivering. He is eating hay and going into the creep feeder. Thank you again Pam


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Great to hear, you did a great job and you are very welcome. ;-)

With the heat lamps, I take a hay bale string and tie it to the lamp where it doesn't get hot and tie it to a secure area up higher and have the heat where I can feel it above the kid, but not too hot. If you feel it will cause a fire, don't use it.

You can make a sweater for the kid(s) too, take an old sweater and cut the sleeve off of it , cut to length size, make the holes for the legs and head.
With little bucklings, make sure the sweater isn't covering the peeing spot, LOL

Still monitor them, keep updates coming.


----------



## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> Great to hear, you did a great job and you are very welcome. ;-)
> 
> With the heat lamps, I take a hay bale string and tie it to the lamp where it doesn't get hot and tie it to a secure area up higher and have the heat where I can feel it above the kid, but not too hot. If you feel it will cause a fire, don't use it.
> 
> ...


I will try to get the lamp up today. All the kids are doing good today :smile: Tonight we will be even colder and then back up to the 40s for a day or two. Some are sneezing but no discharge. Do they need anything for the sneezing or just keep monitoring? Will post updated pics of everyone soon.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Just monitor them. Could be a cold from the up and down temps. Not easy on their systems.


----------

