# I don't even know what I don't know



## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Ok, I know I am in over my head, lol but I am in love with goats. I currently have 6 now. This is what I have done, please feel free to point out my errors, to give advice, and even ask me what the heck I am thinking if you feel it would be beneficial 

We started off with Bonnie and Clyde, which are small for being pure bred nubians. Bonnie is 60 pounds at 7 months old and Clyde is 47 pounds. Both she and Clyde are free fed burmuda hay and Clyde is given 2 cups of pellets and one cup of purina goat chow twice a day and Bonnie is given 2 cups of purina goat chow and one cup of pellets twice a day. They are housed together. I had believed Clyde gay as even though he is peeing on himself and extending his red manly part I have never seen him do ANYTHING towards Bonnie except follow her around. I have had them health tested for CAE, Johnes, and Brucellosis. We did not do CL for reasons I cannot remember.

Now today we got our 4 month old Nigerian buck WHO IS ADORABLE! And I went ahead and put him in the pen with Bonnie and Clyde. Charming (the new guy's name according to my 5 year old) already has a bigger 'package' then Clyde and is extremely bucky already. Charming and Clyde seem to really have 'clicked' as they are already hanging out together. Now, that leaves Bonnie who I have determined that she is just not as sweet as I thought. She already is trying to bully Charming and is trying to separate him from Clyde and being fairly rough. Clyde is trying to stay out of it but seems to be enjoying Charmings playful antics. Charming has tried to mount Bonnie but she just knocked him off and chased him down. What should I make of this behavior? 

We were hoping to have received the health testing back on our other 3 Nubian does so we could put Bonnie with them and let the males be in peace but it looks like things are going to have to be the way they are for at least a few more days although I'm thinking about letting Bonnie just have free range in the 'big' pasture if she continues to be too rough with Charming.

Once the health tests come back (we didn't do Charming because I actually know his back ground and I know that he comes from tested and clean stock) and if they are clean then we are going to sell off 2 of our large Nubian does. However, I am having second thoughts on keeping Bonnie if she is so dominate to the males will she let them breed her when she is in heat? Plus, I would like to do mini nubians with Charming and I am wondering if in a month or so I could use him, BUT how on earth would he reach my big does? Do does lie down like dogs do? I would use Clyde but I'm not sure he is up for the job as I am still unsure where his interests lie...

Please don't think I'm crazy.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

1. You have 2 bucks with a doe, who is not even old enough or big enough to breed. Big no no in my books.
2. You didnt quarantine a new goat but ran it directly in with the other two. 
3. Why would you sell two larger well grown does instead of selling the one that is unthrifty and small for her age? To give you a clue, my 3 mth old nubian girl weighs 77lbs. 
4. It is very rare to find a buck that wont work, as you put it 'gay' I very much doubt this is the problem. Some boys mature slower than others - my nubian buck has only just shown interest in the does and started weeing on himself at 1 yr old. I'm guessing that your buck is simply too young. 

You need to figure out what you want to do. If you want to breed nubians, I would separate the two boys from the girls, castrate the ND as a friend and use the nubian buck. But then again since he is not well grown I would probably castrate him as well and find a better grown buck. If you want to breed mini nubians, castrate the nubian boy to keep as a friend for the ND buck. Separate the two boys from the girls, and breed them when they are old enough. You will need to put the ND buck up on a platform and hold the doe when she is in season. Goats do not lay down to breed. 

I hope that helps and is not too harsh, you did ask for advice and to point out errors and this is what I have done with how I see your situation. I am sure you love all your goats and like many of us you have jumped into this very quickly and now sounds like you are a bit in over your head. Time to ask some hard questions and make some difficult decisions. Decide on a farm plan and a direction for how to get there, and stick to it.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Nubians mature slowly and Nigerians very quickly. I have an 80lb. Nubian buckling who doesn't "get it" yet. He's 4 1/2 months. Don't worry , he'll come around. 
Your doeling is just telling the little buck that she is not ready yet. She will do this in no uncertain terms. She is acting exactly as she should when housed with an over eager buck. It's a good thing, she's still too small and inmature to be bred. She really needs seperated for a bit, until she grows up some. If the big pasture is safe and she would have a secure, predator proof place to spend the night. I think that solution would be excellent for now.
No need to start worrying yet. You kids just need time and good management to grow up some more.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Thank you and no, you were not too rough. I know exactly what you were saying is right. It's kinda how we got in over our heads. We got Bonnie and Clyde together and they are extremely bonded...well Clyde is extremely bonded to Bonnie. Bonnie could care less if Clyde is around most of the time as she will go out and graze on her own and be perfectly content, Clyde has to have her in his eye sight. We built a goat area to keep them separate but knew that they both needed friends so we got the 3 does as a package deal for someone who was selling out and moving. As soon as they get a clean bill of health, they can be out of their quarantine area and everything will be a much better situation. The reason why we would sell two of the big does is because we just don't want that much milk. We aren't positive that Bonnie is pure nubian and isn't in fact a mini nubian that is popular around here. After getting Charming, I see much more Nigerian Dwarf in Clyde then Nubian. He has Nubian ears but a Nigerian face. I want to keep one full size Nubian and Bonnie to see how their milk production goes. If in the future we want more milk then we will keep one of their does or bring in better quality stock. Again, I know what you say is correct, just everything got muddled in the middle while we were trying to figure out what we are going to do.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

The reason that I am uncertain about putting Bonnie by herself is that we don't have any type of cover in the big area. We have one goat house in what will be the 'boys house' and the 3 big girls are in the big goat house. Our entire property is secured by a 5 foot vinyl fence with non climbing fence attached so I 'think' that is as predator proof as I can make it for now. It only gets into the upper 50's still here so she might be ok but I don't like her being alone with no cover.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I have 5 foot chain link here. Nothing here gets into it. As for a house see if you can picture this. Take 2x4's and build 4 triangles each 4 feet to a side. Stand them up 2 feet apart and put plywood inside on the bottom so that they all stand there with the points in the air. It should make a platform 3' 8" or so by 8'. Now on the outside of the triangles put a sheet of plywood on each side to make an A-frame house. Staple a cheap 6x8 foot tarp over the very top and going down 3' on each side so that it won't leak at the peak. Leave both ends open.
Put in straw, It makes a very cheap sturdy temporary house that they also won't pee in because they have to crawl in and out. They learn to do that quickly. We used these over an Idaho winter one year and with 3 or 4 goats in them they were warm. Only thing is, DON'T let them use it when there are kids in the herd. The smaller ones may get squashed in the small space.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

I think Bonnie should be separated from the bucks too. A shelter for a few days could be as simple as a table covered with a well secured tarp. I have also successfully used a piece of plywood leaned against a building with two t- posts set at the base to keep it from falling. You can be pretty creative with shelter for one goat. Just make sure she is not going to have a problem with suddenly having access to the pasture if she hasn't been on it. Don't want her getting sick. or maybe you could get a couple hog panels and just block off a corner of the buck pen for her for the few days until you figure everything out. Good luck! Sounds like your going to have lots of fun.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

She is only like 22 inches at the shoulders, like I said, she is very small and that is why I suspect she isn't full nubian. Would a empty 55 gallon barrel work then if they will crawl in things? I can get that set up tonight and do the bigger things tomorrow.


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

keren said:


> 1. You have 2 bucks with a doe, who is not even old enough or big enough to breed. Big no no in my books.
> 2. You didnt quarantine a new goat but ran it directly in with the other two.
> 3. Why would you sell two larger well grown does instead of selling the one that is unthrifty and small for her age? To give you a clue, my 3 mth old nubian girl weighs 77lbs.
> 4. It is very rare to find a buck that wont work, as you put it 'gay' I very much doubt this is the problem. Some boys mature slower than others - my nubian buck has only just shown interest in the does and started weeing on himself at 1 yr old. I'm guessing that your buck is simply too young.
> ...


 I had all kinds of advice but you pretty much said it all lol..Great Advice..


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

If it's nice out and not expected to rain or snow you could give it a try with some straw or something in it. She may be too upset at being separated to think of climbing in right away which is why I wouldn't try it if the weather is "falling".


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Shoot, it hardly feels like fall here let alone winter. I'm in Phoenix and it's suppose to be 80 tomorrow.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

A barrel would work okay for temporary. Just make sure it can't roll over. 
If you took a couple pictures of her head and one showing the length of her legs compared to her body depth, we may be able to help you with the breed.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

If there is any chance that the two smaller Nubians are full Nubian, I would suggest testing them for G6S. Especially if they continue to not grow and look unthrifty. G6S is a genetic defect found in Nubians and their crosses. If a goat is affected it is typically very slow growing, unthrifty and just doesn't do well. Carriers can have the defect, but show no signs, they only have one defective gene where as affected goats have both genes defective. A normal goat has no defective genes. If all of your goats are normal, you have no chance of having affected kids.

I would separate the doe from the bucks ASAP. Your Nigerian will be able to breed even the full size Nubian does. Most people will either dig a hole for the doe to be in so she is shorter, or make a platform for the buck so he is taller. I think I would keep the larger, better grown does and sell the two small ones. I would wether the Nubian buck and sell the two as pets. There is an excellent market for minis, so that may be the bets way for you to go.

Being in Phoenix, if you are going to do any breeding this year, I would try to get it done this month or beginning of next. I used to live near Phoenix and even the kids born at the beginning of June needed some help keeping cool the first few days. I actually had misters set up on their barn and that cooled the temp a lot for them. Most of my does would even lay right under it and get misted for a little while then lay back in the shade away from it and be nice and cool.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

Good Advice. For temporary housing, I've seen cattle panels (those stiff ones that come in 16') made into a dome shape and covered with a tarp, or a square and plywood on top. I've seen pallets with a tarp over them (my neighbor actually did that), I had a rubbermaid style shed that's 6x10 that worked great. We had an old campershell laying here when we moved in so we built a wood frame to raise the top up to almost 5'. You can get pretty creative, especially if it's temporary; you just want them dry and windproof (other than ventilation of course).


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## animalfamily (Nov 23, 2012)

I think it is perfectly normal for the does to run the bucks off when they are not in heat. My senior doe and buck have been together from the beginning and when she's not in heat she will run him off. Occasionally though I have seen her let him rub his head on her butt, lol!! True love, I guess 

I do agree two bucks and a doe together is a bad idea. I had a guy one time [he was new to goats] try to buy two bucks and a doe from me. I refused to sell them to him. I explained why he did not want to do that. It made sense once he thought about it. I told him it would make his life AND theirs, miserable.

Sounds like you've gotten some pretty good advice here already, good luck to you, you'll do fine !!


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Ug, it's a good thing that we bought a home that already had so much fencing sections. The blood tests came back and one of the new does came back as being borderline with Johnes. Seriously. SMH. We are going to redraw on Friday and send it to a different lab for a second opinion. So we have kept everyone separated and now separated the one borderline doe as well. I'm running out of room! How likely is this going to be an actual positive? The one that came back as borderline has been with the other two for over a year and they came back clean. Any positive thoughts right now would be appreciated.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Do a copper bolus before you redraw. Sometimes low copper can look like Johnnes. Doing a fecal test is more expensive but, more accurate.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Oooh thank you! I have been adding feed with copper to their diet as they have many of the copper deficient signs (did I mention that they looked a little like a mess when we got them?) so I am trying to fix them up. What is a copper bolus though?


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

I found the thread on copper bolus' thanks! Ug, I swear the feed stores around me have NOTHING in stock for goats. I'm looking at ordering copasure, have any of you found local stores carrying anything like that or copper sulfate? Heck, I can't even find where to get ammonium choride locally. I would like to have more stuff on hand before an emergency then panicking during one.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

I have a call in to our 'local' goat vet whom is out of town right now to see about how I can fecal test. If I have read the information correctly, signs of copper deficiency is fluffed up coat, roaning throughout the coloring, and coarser hair. Is that accurate? I think it is time I attach some pics of my ladies.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

This is heavy, I am so sorry!
The black and white one is Jewel and she is the one that came back borderline Johne's.
The Red one is Big Hot Momma who is mom to Teegan the mostly black with white flecks .
And the black goat whose pic's is outside is Clyde. It was the best profile pic I could get, he just does not have the nubian nose. His face seems much more dished in like a nigerians in my completely inexperienced opinion.


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## S+S Homestead (Jul 23, 2012)

Quick question, are Bonnie and Clyde related? It sounds like you are saying they are the same age, are they siblings or share a father? If so, it's not a good idea for them to mate. 

Two males in the same pen will just not work when they get a little older. At least not if there are any females within a few acres. We learned that lesson the hard way.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

There is no such thing as borderline Johnes -- Johnes is an incurable disease, has she been tested? Has she gained weight?


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

No, Bonnie and Clyde are not related. 
The blood test came back borderline. I called the lab and he just said that her antibodies were elevated which could be indicative of Johnes and to retest in a month. I've been in contact with a vet today and I have arranged to drop off some poop for them to send off to their lab.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Oh okay, I'm sorry. If she is borderline, I would consider having her separated for the time being, since this is a disease that she could pass on to the others. 

Hope the next test comes back negative! :hug:


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh, she is separated. And not happy about that might I add... The vet/lab to do the fecal is $130 which in my opinion isn't all that bad but dh now wants to go the bolus route then blood retest. My head is spinning. WWYD?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Definitely do the faecal test. It is much more accurate, price isnt that bad and you will know for sure.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

And I just found a lab that will do it for $30. The down side is that it takes 2-4 months for results :/ but that is the case for any johnes fecal test.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I would bolus before doing either. It's all the Tillamook dairy farmers over here that figured out about the copper. The low copper makes their immune system weak. Once the copper levels in the cows were up to par, the anti-bodies went away as the animals system were able to fight them off. 
The difference in the tests are that the blood test tells you if she has been exposed to a MAP like bacterium. The fecal tells you if she has it, is shedding it, and that it is for sure MAP and not a copycat bacterium.
There is a 'tell' on this disease. When you are buying goats, look for a herd with all ages of animals. A herd that has Johnes rarely has any animals over the age of 5 and if they do, they will be ill. That's not always true but, is a good indicater that something is wrong in the herd.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Ok, I have ordered the copasure and ammonium chloride (thought I should keep some on hand) and I have found a lab http://www.johnes.org/testserv/index.html that I can send the fecal in directly for $30. So, I am going to do all of the above! I will do the copasure as soon as I get it, wait a week (does that sound good?) then draw blood. In the mean time I will send in the fecal sample. I like having my bases covered.


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## soniedayz01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Yay! Her blood test came back negative for johns, phew! Now to breed the Nubians and sell off two and Clyde so we will be left with three goats. I actually like them all and don't want to sell any but hubby doesn't like the cost of feed for three full sized Nubians. I think goats are awesome, what can I say?


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