# Experiences with recovery after bladder tear/UC



## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

please keep your finger's crossed for our wether Olliver.

I had to drive him to our clinic yesterday with UC. First it didn't seem too bad, because he was still able to pass urine, although only a small trickle but that almost constantly.

Yesterday evening they called. They removed the proceccus and the stones and then slipped an endoscopic sonde up his penis into the bladder. That was when it was discovered that he had a tear in the bladder wall (if I can remember correctly about 5 cm long). They opened him up and repaired the tear.

He's now on heavy antibiotic and cortisone regiment, given painkillers and has a catheter placed to give his urethra time to heal. He will be on constant monitoring with daily bloodwork (the vet responsible is also doing a study on endoscopic treatment of UC so he's right now kind of VIP patient).

Apparently he had lots of small and little stones in his urethra that where ablet to slip back and forth so that he never had apparent problems with urinating. Unless at last a big stone lodged itself and blocked the urethra.

This happened so fast. On Thursday morning he was fine, begging for treats, fighting with his herd mates, eating. Thursday evening I thought he seemed a bit off but couldn't place it and Friday morning he seperated himself from the herd and didn't want to move much with obvious inability to make a normal stream. He was at the clinic around noon, blood result still only slightly elevated.

They will call me if he's getting worse. Right now they're calling his prognosis doubtfull, they have to see if the suture in the bladder wall will hold and if he develops an infection.

Has anybody had this done to one of your goats? What was the outcome? If they lived would you do it again, meaning did they have quality of life after recovery?


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

I hope all is well with Oliver today.

The only experience I have with stones is a yorkie.
She had surgery to remove the large stone.
The bladder was super glued together. And healed
just fine. 
Unfortunately she continue to get stones that moved
into her kidneys. And even with diets I could not save her.
She may have been a livershunt pup. I never had her necropsied. Her stones were protein based.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

no call from the clinic until this morning. This means, he's doing well. We agreed that I can visit him on Tuesday and unless there would be a major decline they wouldn't contact me over the weekend (limited staff).


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

I visited Oliver today.

He's doing fine, all things considered. Lost some weight, no surprise here after a 3 hour surgery.

Is eating well, chewing cud, charming the vets and staff. His bloodwork is almost back to normal, pain scoring quiet low, no fever yet. The urine that ran into his abdomen before and during surgery through the tear in the bladder is being absorbed and no new fluid is leaking out of the repaired tear.

He's still wearing his catheter, today they tested if his urethra is free and it is. Although he still passes blood with his urine.

They showed my the stones the pulled out of his penis - my poor boy! They were stacked up almost 1 inch back into the urethra and the processus was also full.

Luckily the vet in charge agreed to have the stones analyzed. I want to know what's causing this (third wether with stones) as I keep the normal risk factors as low as possible: no concentrated food, Ca ratio 2:1 (as fas as I can tell from the mineral food and the hay), late castration, enough water, exercise, goats not overweight. Right now I can only think of something in the plants/soil of the fields we clear every summer. The plant live is somewhat monotonous in the last two years, mostly blackthorne (which strangles many plants by taking up space and light).


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

I'm glad he's doing ok so far. I hope he has an uneventful recovery. Good luck finding the source of the UC problem.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Well,

I've already spoken with the vet on how to proceed as soon as we can take him home. She advises to keep him seperated for 2-3 more weeks with only one goat as companion to give the scar tissue time to harden up.

While this study is going on (till December 2012) I will bring two or three of the oldest wethers for her to check, too, because although they don't show signs of UC this sudden onset has scared me. And the vet is desperate to get candidates for her study.

I'll also see that I get a copy of the study once it's published.


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## ali pearson (Aug 12, 2009)

So sorry to hear about all this trauma you and your goat have had to endure. I'm glad that he appears to be recovering! Thank you for sharing your experience so that we can all learn what may be the cause, and how well the treatments can alleviate problems that may occour. 
I'm sure part of Olliver recovering is that you care so much and are doing right by him.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

thanks for the good wishes.

Oliver is going to get better daily. The tested him yesterday for blood results after having the catheter closed for 8 hours and it was a good chance that they would pull the catheter in the evening, I'll hear this morning.

The result on his stones came back: 90% calcit stones - meaning calcium carbonate - and 10% calcium phosphate stones which would indicate a bladder infection as a second cause. 

As the most common cause for calcit stones is feeding an unbalanced diet of clover or alfalfa and I definitely don't feed that nor do they get these plants while they browse I really have to look into imbalances from the brush clearing work. How I'll pull this off, I don't know. This year alone we've been to 8 different areas already, some we've never been in the past before.

I will go on and add more vitamin A and vitamin C (to acidify the urine) in the wethers' diet. The vet suggested dried cranberries for the vitamin C and I'll look into what it will cost me to feed that to 14/15 wethers while they are out clearing brush. Meaning either feeding individually or coming up with a weatherproof and mobile device for offering it free-choice. Been thinking about giving GSE and/or rose hip, too.

Should any of you have other ideas, please share!

From a medical point of view, he was apparently the first wether/buck in the study where the new method of endoscopic treatment was used successfully. He had the complication of the bladder tear but the basic treatment that they are testing was successfull. I learned yesterday that this not only includes the endoscopic surgery (less invasive) but also a procedure already in use in humans: they'll not only empty the bladder by laying a catheter, releasing the built-up urine but will additionally flush the bladder and suck out the urine (alternating between flushing and sucking) to stir up the remaining sediments and get more of it out than by only draining the urine.

The goal is to establish an even less invasive method to treat UC, using no longer a trokar to place the catheter but a small device (can't translate it properly) that will work by sliding through the bladder muscle and making an opening for the catheter by dilating it from the outside. Apparently this is used in humans with UC for some time now and the results are really good. In combination with flushing/sucking out the bladder they hope to get shorter healing time, less pain and less relapses from remaining sediments.

It would also be a procedure that any vet with endoscopic equipment could do.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

BTW - has anybody used/is using Acid Pack 4-Way 2x from Alltech. I've found this mentioned for preventing/treating UC a while back and just remembered it.

It's not available in Germany and before I go the length of getting it shipped from the US I would like to know more about it.


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

> there are other factors affecting the calcium-to-phosphous ratio in the goat's diet. If the minerals being fed have the proper calcium-to-phosphorus ratio and the goats are not being fed a diet heavy in grain concentrates, then the producer should have both water and hay tested for mineral content. Many types of hay (Bermuda is one example) are high in phosphorus. Hay fertilized with chicken litter will be even higher in phosphorus levels. Adding calcium carbonate (ground limestone) to goat minerals can help bring the calcium-to-phosphorus ratio back to the 2-1/2 to 1 range. However, it is essential to work with a goat nutritionist to find the right amount of calcium carbonate to add to the mineral mixture to get these ratios on target.


http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculi06.html

Acid packs and ammonium chloride were mentioned in her article.
Hope her article helps.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

thanks for the article. Won't have time today to read it but will look into it later.

I found a study on contents of leaves of several trees and brushes which told me that blackthorne leaves will have a calium content of about 10% and other brushes that my goats browse on have even more.

Been thinking of a way of how to determine how much phosphorus they get on a mostly leave based diet as I have so far found no data on the phosphoros content of leave (only of grass) so that I can try to determine the Ca ratio of my goats' daily diet. But I fear that they will have been on a calcium overdose for the last years - at least during the summer months.


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

I spent some time actively looking for such information, since my guys eat lots of Box Elder, Weeping Willow and Chinese Elm leaves. I wasn't able to find anything.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

it's a very small study, done by a german institute.

When I find time, I'll translate the results (plant names) of the 30 trees/brushes that have been tested.

If you search after "fodder trees" you can find several studies done in india, pakistan, indonesia and other third world countries.


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## cryptobrian (Apr 26, 2012)

You might also see if you can find a copy of:

_Nutrient Requirements of Small Ruminants: Sheep, Goats, Cervids, and New World Camelids_

I was able to find it at a library in the next county, it's a bit expensive to purchase. But it did contain nutrient levels for many nutrients across a pretty broad spectrum of plants. Mostly the common feed species (grasses, grains, beets, etc.) but it did also include quite a few trees, shrubs, and other browse.


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## cryptobrian (Apr 26, 2012)

Here is a link to the Feed Composition Tables from the 1981 work that preceded the _Small Ruminants_ publication.

I'm not sure how much things of changed between this and the 2007 edition, but I'd imagine the data points are still pretty relevant.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

I fear that the table of contents regarding minerals in your link is incomplete.

F.e. for oak it shows only the content of phosphorus.

In the study that I have, the other contents of oak leaves are mentioned, except for phosphorus (the author told me in the meantime that there wasn't enough money granted to test for phosphorus, too).

Oak leaves contain calcium, magnesium, sodium, etc. as well.


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## cryptobrian (Apr 26, 2012)

sanhestar said:


> I fear that the table of contents regarding minerals in your link is incomplete.


That is correct. The tables include only those nutrients that had testing data available. These nutrition books are essentially compendiums of data available at the time of publication. As such, it includes those nutrients for which there was already published results. If a nutrient is blank or dashed, don't infer that it isn't present, simply that there wasn't data available to include. A data point of 0.00 would indicate that it was tested but not found in significant quantity.


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## Jake Levi (Jun 9, 2011)

How is Oliver doing now? 

I dont recall you saying his age., I am curious on that. 

Its a fascinating thread, on the study and all of the input. 

Thanks all for contributing.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

as of today I will bring him home on Thursday morning. Need to contact the vet tomorrow for details but heard from a fellow goatkeeper who had her wether at the clinic during the weekend that he's doing really well.

I couldn't to visit him because I was giving a packgoat seminar - UC's and the new study where a topic, as you can imagine.

This other wether was/is also a great example for the efforts they go to for goats with the new vets there.

He was mistreated by a local vet, who placed a fistula (remodelling the urethra to open under the anus) as second step of the treatment without considering placing a temporary catheter. The urethra of this wether is scarred and shrunken and the fistula infected. After an ultrasound of the bladder which showed sediment still present, they tried to widen the urethra, seeing if there's a chance to bring back some of the normal function but without result. They then cleaned out the fistula, applied an antibiotic treatment and gave the owner detailed instructions on how to care for the wether. He may live for up to 3 years.

Oh, Oliver is 6 years old.


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## Jake Levi (Jun 9, 2011)

Thank you Sabine,

you are blessed to have Vets who see goats as worthwhile, I have one such clinic here in MI but dont know what I will find out in Wa.

I wish you and Oliver and sibs all of the best, he is just coming into his prime years.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Oliver is home.

He was reluctant to leave the clinic, he had made so many new friends there - the whole staff came to bid him farewell  

All his bloodwork is still in perfect order, no fever spikes (so hopefully no risk of a late peritonitis).

He's lost considerable weight, showing that this was life-threatening nontheless.

Right now, I think, he misses the attention he had at the clinic. People coming and going, petting him, etc. I will leave him today to settle down and will let him and his companion out in the afternoon for some grazing.

His companion is Lukas who has managed to injure his left frontleg in a fight and is walking on three legs. He will benefit from being alone with Oliver and having his food brought to him. And I can check on him and treat his leg.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Oliver is still doing well, he has regained his weight and is out with his herdmates for the last two weeks.

I'm still in the process of finding more data to narrow on the problem areas in my feeding.

Had an interesting, allbeit short phone conversation with a member of the local institute that does soil analysis and he told me that our region is "ultrabasic" basalt with very thin soil layer. So we're expected to have a high magnesium and also calcium content in the stone and because of the thin soil above it this will leak into the plant live very easily. He also told me that every patch of unfarmed land here aka all the land the goats browse on is to be expected to be phosphate depleted and also lacking other minerals because the soil is so poor/depleted in general.

The farmer I buy my hay from on the other hand told me that he has a more acid soil (pH around 5,3 to 5,5) with calcium shortage. I will have his hay analysed during the winter and will get leaves and other plants from our main browsing areas next spring. 

Right now I think I will offer the goats an additional phosphor source free choice until I have more data.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

as of last Tuesday Oliver is again at the clinic with a new bout of UC.

The vets removed several stones from his urethra but can't reach a larger stone that is still sitting near the first flexure.

He then underwent additional surgery as ultrasound showed sediment and particles is his bladder. The particles turned out to be fibrin fibers.

He recovered well after surgery with a catheter in his bladder again and we now wait if the last remaining stone can be flushed out after the urethra had some time to heal.


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## Jake Levi (Jun 9, 2011)

Thank you for sharing this, I hope I never have to go through what you have with this. 

Its sure been a struggle for you and Oliver both.


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

> Right now I think I will offer the goats an additional phosphor source free choice until I have more data.


From what I have read the UC problem is not accually too
much calcium. But too much Phos. So you may want to 
analize the hay before adding Phos.
From what I have read you should be 2 parts Calcium to 1 part Phos.
Or even less Phos if possible.

I also hope I never have this problem.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

it depends on the composition of the stones.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

this is the last chapter of Oliver's story.

After his second bout with UC last fall we took him home in early November with still a partial obstruction of his urethra caused by the lodged stone that couldn't be removed.

We came through the winter without any problems, he was active and alert although he had lost some of his status in the heard and never quite regained all of the weight he lost although I supplemented him with sunflower seeds and/or a bit of grain.

Last Friday, after the first walk to the pastures, he came down with another almost total obstruction (pressing, very, very thin urine flow) and we took him back to the clinic. His vet wasn't in, only a very young, inexperienced one and so we agreed that any detailled diagnostic had to wait till after the weekend. They stabilized him with pain meds, anti-inflammatory meds and anti-cramping meds, tapping his bladder to relieve the pressure and he was doing ok on Saturday and Sunday. Today he deteriorated again and the ultrasound showed a thinning of the bladder walls, adhesions and sediment in the bladder. Examination of his urethra and penis showed that the biological opening of the penis had closed shut from adhesions and scar tissue and that he had built himself another opening a about 1/2" up the penis. But this was also scaring and had shut itself, causing the actual problems.

Any new surgery would only add to the adhesions already present in his body.

With all his history and the actual findings we agreed to have him put down this afternoon.

This isn't a fun month. Both ponies show signs of light laminitis from the new grass or another food source, another wether is limping heavily with the possibility of a fracture, two others more lightly from fighting as well, our oldest dog is getting weaker by the day and one of cats has lost so much weight in a matter of days that we will have to take her to the vet to have her checked out.


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## idahonancy (Dec 13, 2008)

Sabine, You have given these animals beautiful life. Oliver's journey has taught us all lot about UC and the will to survive. Thank you for sharing his story with us. Good Luck with your animals.
IdahoNancy


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

sanhestar said:


> This other wether was/is also a great example for the efforts they go to for goats with the new vets there.
> 
> He was mistreated by a local vet, who placed a fistula (remodelling the urethra to open under the anus) as second step of the treatment without considering placing a temporary catheter. The urethra of this wether is scarred and shrunken and the fistula infected. After an ultrasound of the bladder which showed sediment still present, they tried to widen the urethra, seeing if there's a chance to bring back some of the normal function but without result. They then cleaned out the fistula, applied an antibiotic treatment and gave the owner detailed instructions on how to care for the wether. He may live for up to 3 years.


I can also give an update on what happened to this wether (I mentioned him on the first page of this threat):

A few weeks after his treatment in the clinic, he developed - like Oliver - a second opening in his urethra below the fistula that was surgically created and the surgical fistula went dry. It seemed that this wether was in for the long haul with this miraculous development.

I didn't hear from his owner but when we brought in Oliver I heard from the vet that he was put down during the winter.

The second opening had closed some time later and the surgical fistula was again his only way to relieve himself. We had an extremely hard winter, with up to -22Â°F for several weeks. The urine leaking down his legs had caused irritations and frost bite and his owner decided to end his suffering.

I also had our hay analysis done which didn't show any disbalances. In fact, I could if I wanted almost keep the wethers without any additional mineral feed as long as they don't do any work during the winter. Tried it this winter with only stone salt and some herbs as mineral supplement. They are fine, it's the first winter in years where they didn't show signs of zinc deficiency at the end of winter.

But I notice an increased hunger for bark. Luckily I was able to provide them with enough branches every few days because a neighbour had cut back all her trees and hedges very late last year.


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## joecool911 (Jul 3, 2010)

Sabine,

I am new here. This thread came up on the new posts. I read through the whole thing from the beginning. How sad. But you should feel good about the extent you cared for him. He is lucky to have had you as his owner and friend. 

I am in a similar situation with a dog. She's 15 and a pain in the rear. She is like an old person. Needs attention a lot and does things that irritate the family. But your family can see how you would treat another family member by how you take care of your pets. Not disposing of them as soon as they become more trouble than they're worth. 

No regrets or guilty feelings. Good job!

Joe


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## joecool911 (Jul 3, 2010)

Sabine,

Looking back for the rest if us...is there anything you would have done differently for the boy if you had the chance to do it over? Was he banded early or surgically castrated later, etc.?

Joe


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

So sorry to hear of your loss. You gave Oliver a good fighting chance. I hope this was a "freak" problem in your herd.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

joecool911 said:


> Sabine,
> 
> Looking back for the rest if us...is there anything you would have done differently for the boy if you had the chance to do it over? Was he banded early or surgically castrated later, etc.?
> 
> Joe


Hello Joe,

he was surgically castrated at about 8 or 9 months. He sired two lambs before being castrated. His son had problems with UC a few years ago but he never had this amount of problems.

What would I do differently? Not much in regard to care or treatment. I think that what was done with Oliver was as top of the game as it could be.

I would do things different in prevention:

- much more attention for the slightest problem of UC: urine flow getting irregular, thinner, more pressing.
- much faster reacting when there's a suspicion of UC. With Oliver I lost one night when he had his first bout and it was almost fatal.
- no longer relying on "thinking to know what's in the feed and plants" but "knowing what's in the feed" by doing several analysis during the year.
- I'll try to cut totally back on the molasses based mineral feeds because from my research up until now the molasses in the mineral feed I used for years are a very likely source for the forming of the UCs (as of now I have excluded the hay - will have to test the pastures now that spring is coming).
- more research about the parents (occurence of UC) before buying but that's of course out of the question when you acquire a rescue goat as Oliver was 7 years ago.
- I'm thinking about something that might prove totally "whacko": testing the wethers with a pendulum or a dousing rod if they're at risk for UC. And taking the one's with a "yes" to my vet for clinical evaluation. I'll have to talk with her about that.

It would be great to make regular screening of the bladder with ultrasound a reality but there's no network for it (vets with equipment AND experience in reachable distance).

Urine testing with indicator stripes could be something I might do with wethers that appear suspicious but it's still a long shot. I'd practically have to carry the indicator stripes with me all day to catch them when they pee. Have to think about that.


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## joecool911 (Jul 3, 2010)

How are you testing your feed?


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

I'll send about 6 pounds material (hay or browse) to a regional lab that does testing for farmers and ranchers. I'll get back a detailled report on nutritional value, protein content, roughage, minerals and trace elements. Costs about 60 USD.

You must have similar labs in the US.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Yesterday I received the preliminary result of the vivisection that was done on Oliver to gain more insight into what really had been happening inside his body:

no new sediment and no new stones in the bladder but again lots of fibrin fibers from a heavy bladder infection. This was in fact a big, gelatenous mass in his bladder that he would never have been able to pass through his compromised urethra.

The evaluation of the narrowed portion on his urethra, where last year we suspected a logded stone showed no scarring from stones or previous inflammations although some redness in the lining. The pathologist concluded that this was a birth defect, maybe genetic (as Oliver's son Lucky also has had two "rounds" of UC, one with stones and one with suspected scar material restricting the flow).

Lucky is still fine for more than two years now but I'll speak with the vet about having him scanned again and if she wants to see Oliver's grandson (out of Lucky's sister) for evaluation, learning more about genetic backgrounds. Unfortunately there won't be any grands/founds to start a study on genetic markers. With this "family" of UC-history there could have been a start to compare DNA with healthy bucks/weathers and start searching for a marker.

Our other wether is still in the clinic, they couldn't make time yet to have him x-rayed because of the holiday and skeleton staff. Our cat was at the vet yesterday with suspected kidney problems - results will be in today - but after some initial treatment she's perked up a bit and is eating with more appetite.


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