# Weird! Doe kidding and first kid was a empty sac??



## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

The togg doe that has been in the process of kidding (hard labor) since 7:15 today had 1 "kid" that I know of so far.
Just a big empty sac(not the sack the hooves are in the large sac the size of a kid).
The doe is not doing good at all and she is drenching her with sugar and calcium to get her to stop shaking and back to hard contractions.
May be 2 more kids in there but at this point we don't know.
Also it is unlikely that they all make is. Very sad and all so very weird.
I have never heard anything like what I am hearing today.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

If this doe has been in actual hard labor pushing and straining since 7:15 and it is 12:15 that is 5 hours and WAY WAY too long. She needs to get to a vet ASAP if the owner does not know how to help get the kids out or cant.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Very strange. Honestly jesse if she were mine I'd scrub up and go in, she doesnt sound good at all and I'd be wanting to go scuba diving, pull out any kids she might have in there and get it over and done with for the poor girl. 

Can't say I've ever heard of a goat delivering an empty sac. Was the sac intact? If not maybe the kid is still in there and somehow the sac came out without kid? Or its some type of false pregnancy ... cloudburst pregnancies are usually just fluid I think, not sure if any membranes are delivered. 

Good luck to the mum and possible babies


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

logan and I posted at the same time ... I agree the doe needs to be helped and maybe they will be able to save her or the babies


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

She has been calling her vet.
I am not sure if her vet knows anything at all. 
It was 4 hrs later at the time and the vet said to give her more calcium and didn't come out.
I don't understand that. I don't know if she would know to scrub up and get them out, will tell her that though.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

...... Not to be mean, I'm not trying to be...... But if she is going to breed goats she needs to educate herself a bit more. There is no excuse to not go in and check things out, see whats going on, etc. after such a long period of pushing. A kid could simply be caught on something and a quick shift by a human can make them pop right out. A little intervention can be the difference between life and death. Like I said, not trying to upset her, but maybe she just isn't cut out to be a breeder.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

jesse are you anywhere near her, to be able to go out and help her? maybe you can go scuba diving if she isnt prepared to ... 

I'm surprised that the vet didnt say to go in and check ... thats the first thing that should be done


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

if she cant get a vet to come or get the doe to a vet. 
She NEEDS to clean up well and gently go in the doe thru her vulva. Never pull out the placental lining but feel around for kids. Once she finds a kid try and find the head and front feet. Work those towards the opening and hoof then head out. Gently as possibly but to save the doe she needs to help. Calcium will do nothing at this point if that doe has really been pushing for hours as you are saying it is no wonder the doe is shaking. I am amazed if she can even still stand. She must be exhausted. Once one kid is out go check for another and repeat as needed. Remember do not remove or pull the placenta just the kids. if she cant get the kid to come easily out then to save the doe she needs to take a bailing twine and make a lassoo and go in with it in her hand then noose the kid and pull them out that way. The kid would most likely be killed by the noose but you have to get that doe thru labor so she can hopefully relax and then hopefully recover. 
The doe will need a uterine bolus after if possible and then a course of antibiotics. 
I have to go to bed but hope that she can figure it out or get someone to help who can. ray:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

When logan says about the noose on the head ... if the kid is still alive, dont put the noose around its neck. Instead, put the noose around the back of its head then into its mouth - that way when it tightens it wont strangle the kid, it will just be in its mouth. You can also put strings on the feet to help pull. And if you cant find a head and front feet you can deliver them backwards if you feel two back feet. If theres kids in there you will feel them, it will be obvious. If its just placenta and membranes it will just feel like handfuls of mush and fluid. 

This is not a pleasant thing to do but ... If all else fails and the kids are alive but the doe goes downhill and doesnt look like she will survive, you can kill her and do a quick sacrificial caesarian. place her on her side, right side down left side up. You have about three minutes between when she dies and when the kids will suffocate, so three minutes to get them out. cut through her hide just in front of her ribs, move the rumen out of the way and find the kids in the uterus, cut them out and rub them to stimulate breathing. Dont be surprised if you have to go digging around to find the uterus, I did this once and the left side of the uterus was empty, I panicked thinking I had just killed a doe who wasnt pregnant, but then I dug way way down and found the right side of the uterus which had triplets in it. I got them out and all three survived.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I just saw your other thread jesse, I really hope you can get out there or on the phone to her to try and help the doe and save your kids. I dont think the shaking is calcium anymore - as you said she has had plenty. Be careful they dont overdose her on calcium. I would guess she is just very weak and exhausted from kidding. 

I'll be here on and off for a while longer, I wish I wasnt in Australia otherwise would say you could call me. 

Prayers sent for you all


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

I tried posting earlier but my internet cut out for a bit.

I am 1 hour and 20 mins away and can't leave. My parents are out of state and the only vehicle I can drive isn't driveable past 20 miles (it is 60 miles one way). I can't call as her phone is blocked.

I did just get an email from her.No she is not stupid.
She did do an internal examination and found that the kid is upside down, nose up, and legs are somewhere deep down inside and she can't find them. She has been trying to find the legs and get the kid out but with no success.
She said she is in over her head now and is waiting for the vet to arrive.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

i.am sorry i didnt mean to offend, only to give options that might help. i certainly didnt say anyone was dumb. upside down kids are the hardest to get out. good luck i hope the kid is alive. wouldnt surprise me if the does uterus is ruptured, sothing to think about when caring for the doe post delivery if they get the kid out


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

Keren-I wasnt referring to you.
I havent heard from her all night...or at least since 2 am.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

gosh im sorry jesse it.must be really hard waiting and not hearing anything


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

I imagine that with the vet there and everything they got the kid(s) out a long time ago.
I am not sure if they are dead or if she was able to get them going and back to life with the vets help.
If if she has been bottle feeding them store colostrum all this time.
Should hear from her soon though.
Aslo yes, the wait is killing me. I am hoping for at least 1 kid to pull through (buck or doe will still be used).
Also hoping the doe lives, she is really weak.

With a ruptured uterus she would never be able to rebreed or no?
I don't think this lady will be breeding this goat again anyways, just curious.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

depends on how bad the rupture is, some does will die from it, some will heal and kid again normally some will heal but shouldnt be bred. depends on the size and locatuon of the rupture. we of course dont know if this doe has ruptured, i jist thought it was worth mentioning because given the position and size of the kid and tough delivery it could be a likely complication


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

I had a doe rupture her uterus this year. She passed away shortly after I was able to get the 2 kids out only one lived. The other was breech and had aspirated fluid. If she didi rupture and the vet was able to stitch her up rebreeding depends not only on the size and location of the rupture but also what caused it. 

If you felt I was saying your friend was stupid I am very sorry I never meant that in any way. 
I know many people that have animals that do not know how to handle all situations. Even those of us with years of experience are still learning daily. I was only suggesting what needed to be done not that she should already know what to do. That is a big reason this forum is so great; those people looking for suggestions and help can come here for advice wether they have no experience or tons.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

Very sad news.

I didn't hear from her till now as she was sleeping.
All this was a very long brutal experience for her and she went to bed this morning.
The kids did not make it without much help from the vet.
It was a boy/girl twin the passed. Vet had to get rid of them asap to save the life of the doe.

Posting the rest of this sad story on my other thread.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

jesse-goats said:


> Keren-I wasnt referring to you.
> I havent heard from her all night...or at least since 2 am.


I didn't say she was stupid. Your thread suggested she was just letting a goat scream and cry and push for four hours without any sort of intervention. I was trying to just make a suggestion.

In any case, I'm glad she knew what to do. I'm sorry it took so long for the vet, etc. Vets are so frustrating! I know that around here if I'm in big trouble I just can't count on any of them. My horse vet is pretty awesome and says he knows goats, but he doesn't do emergency weekend/night calls (which of course is always when you need them)...his answering service refers you to two that do (one large animal and one small), and the large animal people are doofuses about goats.

Sorry she had to go through this. Gonna go zip to your other thread to see what the news is on the doe. This is why I like my minis...just seems to me like it would be harder to go in and actually reach kids stuck way back in a horn with a large goat. You should have seen how freaked I was when my mare foaled, thinking I might have had to go in a horse. I've heard stories about human arms being crushed in equine contractions. :shocked:


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

:tears:


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

:tears: Hope that the doe is able to recover. Sorry for the loss of her kids.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

firelight27 said:


> jesse-goats said:
> 
> 
> > Keren-I wasnt referring to you.
> ...


So very sorry I painted a dark picture for you.
I just was really upset with the way things were going/went.
Sorry I was a little out of line, didn't mean anything against you.
Also I didn't have her whole story so I also painted the wrong picture for her as well. Sorry about all this.


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