# Permission to pack on public lands.



## Girl Scout Packrat (Jan 23, 2009)

Rex pointed me to this forum for advise. Goat packing in Texas is almost unheard of - I am the only one I know who does it - me and my Girl Scout Troop.

We have been hiking and packing with our Alpines for several years in the State Park System as well as in the National Forests. We have recently been told that the Texas Parks and Wildlife Agency considers them livestock and that they are prohibited in the park. I have always won the confrontation in the past because their posted rules simply state all "pets" must be vaccinated and kept on a 6' leash. We have complied, and no Park Police Officer has ever been able to look at my troop of girls with their beloved "Alvin, Simon & Theadore" and tell them that they are not pets!

I have drafted a letter and taken it to our local State Park Administrator outlining the details and reasons for our passion in hopes of gaining support and permission. He has agreed to take it up the ladder.

Anyone out there have a precidence for this battle they can share with me?


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

Go to the http://www.NAPgA.org website and download some copies of the national brochure to give out. Also point out that they are not only pets but also companion animals, and not livestock.

When horses are livestock so are we. NOT! Also, the US National Forest, at the national level has declared them to be packstock and not livestock.


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

Yes,they see packgoats as packstock. And that leads to a problem. They apply the same rules to them as they do horses and mules. In my area that means you have to bring in all their food. They aren't allowed to eat anything, no weeds, trees, brush, grass, nothing when you are out in the national forest. They gave me a booklet about the rules of using pack animals, and there is no difference made for goats. Maybe the national forest people in other areas are more intelligent and reasonable, but not here (SW NM and SE AZ). They weren't willing to discuss it. Meanwhile, they get lots of money every year to conduct "controlled burns" where they set the woods on fire and burn down all the brush, weeds and little trees (and sometimes huge swaths of forest and peoples' houses). But having my goats eat up the same stuff while I'm out hiking and camping is prohibited. Dumb! So I avoid them and do my thing anyway. Fortunately most of them are sitting in their offices, staring at their computers all the time, and I never see them out in the woods anyway. The few forest service field-types I have run into don't have a problem with the goats. Some even see them as beneficial. It's just the cops, the office-types and, unfortunately, the bosses that have their heads up their .....


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## nrspence (Dec 10, 2008)

Ill try not to burn down your house this summer. Ill try to even leave some browse for your goats to eat. I think were spending our first month of the fire season down in south eastern NM..haha


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

Thanks. I would appreciate that. Several years ago a "controlled burn" got out of control and burned much of the city of Los Alamos, NM. Another fire last year was allowed to burn until it got out of control. That was the "Trigo Fire" near my place in the mountains east of Albuquerque. It burned for a month, destroyed about 50 houses, and only died out when the monsoon rains started. 

So you'll be in SE NM for the fire season this year? That's where they found Smokey Bear, many years ago. He was a little bear cub who was burned, but somehow survived a big forest fire near Capitan, NM. The forest in that area is probably in even worse shape now than it was back then. Very overgrown, and the dry season (May and June) brings some big fires to that area. Good luck, and be careful.


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## nrspence (Dec 10, 2008)

Ya ill try to keep you posted on what were doing.
Nate


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

Well, rather than just complain about it, I've decided to take a different approach to dealing with the Forest Service. Trail maintenance is a big issue with them. They don't get enough money to hire crews to maintain all the trails so they depend on volunteers. I went down to the local USFS station and signed up as a trail maintenance volunteer. But I'm not going to be swinging a Pulaski like the rest of them. I have offered my services as a goat packer to haul in water, food, equipment, etc. for the trail maintenance crews. We'll see how it goes. Nobody mentioned the pack animal regulations that would require me to haul in all their food, keep them tied up all the time, etc. Of course I will have to be responsible about not letting them cause any damage or being a pain in the butt to people, but I have to do that anyway. 

Of course, I have an hidden agenda here. What I would like to do is get the USFS people familiar with the idea of goat packing, and then get them to change their regulations so that goats are not lumped in with horses as pack animals. I think that as long as goat packers don't let their animals eat up trees in campgrounds and don't let them bug other campers, then we should be treated differently than horse packers. Horse packers seem to use the same meadows all the time because that's where the grass and water are. And they can really tear the place up, especially where they are highlined and paw the ground. Goats can also tear things up, but in a lot of places, eating back the little trees that crowd the meadows, and all the brush that overgrows the trails, could be a good thing.

This should be fun and interesting. I will keep you posted on how it goes.


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## tiger408 (Jan 13, 2009)

I didn't realize this was such an issue. I talked to the local USFS Ranger station about goatpacking in the National Forest and was told no problem... all trails are open to public use except for the Scenic National Trail which does not allow pack animals of any kind on that ONE trail. I have been given the same permission for the state game areas (the only recommendation I was given was go off season and make sure me and my animals have something orange on) but all the DNR personnel that I spoke with thought it was a great and unique idea. The only thing I can figure is we don't have the same issues here as ya'll do out west?


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

This issue is very regional. The land managers who restrict goat use cite "Federal Guidelines" while other land managers who don't have a problem with it say goat packing is perfectly acceptable. Dealing with managers who don't want anyone else on "their" forest can come up with 101 regulations and guidelines to make your use of our "Public" land uncomfortable to the point of going somewhere else. I believe that is the ultimate goal. It can be very frustrating because there is never a clear cut reason. The ones you get are weak and usually not well thought out. When you respond with one of a hundred reasons to counter the ones they have, you always come back to the ambiguity of the "federal Guidelines". This is basically the same as your mom telling you to do something because she "said so". Not because there was a good reason for it.

All that said, I sincerely believe each manager is doing what they think is the best for their area no matter how misguided they may be. Understanding that, I believe that Jeff is on the right track by volunteering to help. That takes him out of the adversarial role and puts him on the same "team". Of course, educating them all the way. I believe its the best way to deal with this issue. Go Jeff!


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

Thanks Rex. In my case it isn't that packgoats are forbidden. It's that they are lumped in with horses and mules as pack animals, and you have to keep them tied up around camp, and have to bring in all their feed. They are not allowed to eat a leaf off of a bush. That's what the official regulations say. This may make sense in some areas for horse packers because they tend to use the same meadows all the time, and the horses eat down the grass and paw the ground and tear up the place. But goats aren't grazers. They eat trees, weeds, poison ivy, last year's dead stuff, etc. In a lot of areas here the problem isn't a lack of trees. It's too many trees. What are rare are open, grassy meadows. And the trees are constantly crowding into the meadows and over taking them. I think that goats should be regulated differently than horses. In fact they should be encouraged in most areas. But the bureaucracy is pretty rigid, and getting more so. The field people I have run into from the USFS have been pretty open minded about it. Some have even told me they thought there should be more goats out in the woods, to thin them out a bit. It's the managers and cops that are the problem.

Hopefully I will get to work with some trail maintenance crews and spread the gospel. And ultimately maybe I can get the rules changed.


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## NZgoatpacker (Jun 13, 2009)

Hi from New Zealand

Just thought I'd add my two cents in here... Our national conservation agency is DoC (Department of Conservation). I went and spoke to them recently about taking my goat onto National Park land and was told a flat out no. I tried to get permission or a permit to take my goat, but still just a no. The reasons that they cited include that goats are a pest in NZ and they employ hunters on DoC land to cull them, so why would they allow a pet one in?, and that they will destroy native seedlings.

I see their reasoning, but it's really unfortunate that they're not willing to take me up on the offer of a trail walk with Billy to see that he only snacks on gorse tips and fresh lush grass, and generally only eats when I stop for a rest. (Which means I indirectly have control over what he eats). As for the pest issue, I pointed out that he's a wether and even in the unlikely event that we got separated, he couldn't contribute to the population, and is people friendly. Not only that, he wears a high-vis vest when we're out walking so he's identified as a domestic, non-shootable animal.

So failing the national conservation authority, I talked to the city and regional councils in my area. The verdict there was that he can go wherever dogs are allowed. (grrr.... not very helpful) however, he's also allowed on land such as a beach nearby that dogs aren't allowed on, but horses are. 

This effectively excludes me from the small mountains right behind my home, so I'm going to talk to my local MP, ask him out for a walk and show him how good my boy is. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

Wow, I never realized goats were so controversial! I feel bad for those of you who have gotten denials from government officials. I've always taken the angle, "It's better ask forgiveness than to ask permission" when it comes to dealing with government bureaucrats. Usually they won't notice unless you volunteer information, so you have a lot more freedom if you never say anything. :roll:


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

The trail that I frequent requires dogs be on leashes and permits bicycles on even days. On odd days, no bicycles are allowed and dogs can be off leash.

I got stopped last time by the rangers who "just wanted to say hello". They noticed that I had them on leads and it was an even day, but also recognized that they weren't dogs. I only have them on the lead in the parking lot and in congested areas where they might get confused. 

The canyon is really very crowded so although we technically have the right of way as pack animals, we step off to the side and let bikes pass. Most like to stop and talk and enjoy them. 

There has only been one small comment about goat poop on the trail, but they have been battling dog poop for years, so I can see why someone might take offense as a knee jerk reaction.

Do any of you use the poop catchers on your harnesses?

I think I might take a special pack along in the future to pick up the doggie poop bags that people leave all over and make ourselves a bit more useful. Of course we'll have to take pictures and post them on the bicycling site.

Maybe offer a cold drink concession at the top of the mountain...


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

I'm with Nanno on this. If you ask a bureaucrat or cop for permission to do something you will almost certainly be denied. But you may be able to get away with it for a long time, or maybe indefinitely before getting busted. I you do get busted just plead ignorance, beg for forgiveness, grovel, snivel, whine, etc.

Of course if you live in a place where hiking places are crowded and patrolled regularly, it probably won't be long before you get busted.

I am very fortunate to live in a place where the bureacrats-per-square mile are very low. So I just do my thing and don't have any trouble. It helps to avoid places where a lot of people go. That has another benefit. I almost never run into people's dogs, which can be a major hassle.


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## GoatTracksMagazine (Dec 20, 2008)

I think the more people are exposed to pack goats and see their low impact, responsible owners, and dog-like qualities we'll make progress in gaining access. I'm often surprised when we come across people on the trail who know nothing about goats ... they assume they constantly want to ram people, need to be tied in a string to make them hike, and are prone to running off. 

The service projects organized by NAPgA for the Rendy are great, and I wonder if finding local press to cover some of the service-oriented uses of our goats might help all overcome the incorrect stereotyping of pack goats.

If anyone wants to share their stories and experiences (and photos!) for Goat Tracks, I'd love to have them.

Shannon


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

I had an interesting encounter the other day. I was returning from a day hike in the National Forest across the road from my place when I saw a green USFS truck and horse trailer at the gate. As I approached I saw two guys unloading horses. When they saw my goats, who were wearing their packsaddles and day bags, they stared for a moment, then waved. We started talking and the goats started browsing on nearby juniper trees and eating the beans that had fallen on the ground under a mesquite tree. The guys were getting ready to ride around on horseback evaluating the range conditions to see how many cattle would be allowed to graze out there. When they saw the goats eating the juniper and mesquite, they commented how good that was, since both of those species are very invasive and are taking over the area. There was no negative BS about the goats being out there eating stuff. In fact it was the opposite. When I told them that the goats eat very little grass, preferring to eat brush and weeds, they thought that was pretty cool. They were aware of goats being used in other National Forest areas for brush clearing.

I have run into USFS people several times while out hiking with my goats, and never had any trouble. The "field" people all seem to be quite reasonable about it. I had one FS guy tell me he wished there were more goats in the forest to eat up some of the small trees and brush because it would cut down on the fuel for forest fires. 

It's the hardcore bureaucrats that I try to avoid. But those types never get far from their computers in the office anyway.

The cowboys who graze cows in the area around here are my neighbors, and they also see the goats as beneficial since they eat up the weeds and brush that interfere with the grass, and don't compete with the cows. 

The only thing the goats compete with are deer. But there's only my 3 goats, and several million acres of forest land around here, so it's probably not much of a problem. If there were thousands of goats, that would be different.


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## windsking55 (Mar 9, 2010)

I will get a permit for my trips to wilderness areas but on the FS lands nearby I will use the same techinique I use in relation to changing diapers when babysitting my grandsons-don't ask, don't tell.


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