# Critique this doeling please



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I AM getting this doeling next weekend but just wanted to see what others thoughts were on her.
She's 8 months old, 98% boer.
Thank you




















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## J-TRanch (Jan 31, 2014)

She is pretty! I don't like the dip in her back, but it may be from a growth spurt!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Pretty girl!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

She is very nice. Love her.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Real nice!! Very pretty doe.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Victoria!!! No pros and cons? Lol


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

lol. Here you go.  

Pros: 
wide
beautiful head
good depth 
pretty good top 
long ears  

Cons: 
short bodied
not big boned 
long/weak pasterns (could be a hoof trim thing?) 
looks a tad posty legged


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol thank you  so she's a ok little doe. She's also on no grain, hasn't been since she was a kid.......well a lot younger of a kid lol


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

No grain? Nice! 

Pros:
-Love her width
-Good brisket
-Nice width in horn base
-Good thick rump on her
-Nice thick neck
-Nice blends nicely into shoulder and brisket
-Nice depth in rear barrel
-Good chest floor
-Thick, well muscled shoulder and rump
-Rump is a ok length
-Nice stocky little doe


Cons:
-She is short bodied
-Rump is steep
-Bone is too fine
-Pasterns are a bit too long
-A bit posty legged
-Unbalanced
-Uneven topline


I think her unbalanced-ness and shortness is part of a growth spurt. I think she'll get a bit longer and gain more depth in her heart girth and middle barrel as she grows


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yeah no grain is a total plus for me, if anything for the fact she won't turn her nose up to what she'll get here lol
Ok I've heard posty legs before and am totally lost on what that means. Can you explain? NOT disagreeing just simply don't know what that means


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I have a comment about pasterns that I've wanted to get out for awhile now...
My main experience in evaluating conformation in animals is in horses. Race horses. In a race horse your main concern is whether the animal can withstand the rigors of training and racing. It's not about appearance for judges. I highly doubt that the physics of different four legged animals are completely different. The ideal pastern in a horse is of moderate length and at a 45 degree angle. Too long and the the tendons and ligaments will take too much strain. Too short and the animal will not have an adequate "shock absorber" mechanism for a comfortable "smooth" gait, thus causing difficulties for bone and joints. The same is true for the angle. Too flat an angle - strain on tendons and ligaments. Too steep - stubby, ground pounding gait. I can accept that "ideally" a goat should have a slightly steeper angle, but not to an extreme. 

We've all seen goats who are having pastern trouble, some of who's back of their ankles are touching the ground etc.. Usually older does and bucks. How they got that way might not always be a result of what people think. Is Jessica's black doe predisposed to pastern troubles down the road? I would say "not" based on the pictures. Her pasterns could be considered a little bit long, but the angle is well within "correct". In fact this doe should have a very comfortable smooth gait on those pasterns. Within my own herd, I've found that goats that are suddenly appearing to be having pastern problems are in need of good hoof trim. Usually the affected limb is growing an excess of heel on that foot. Although this seems counter-intuitive, I nearly always see improvement when the heel is removed to where it is level with the main sole of the foot. Now, what is the problem with a goat like this? Is it their pasterns, or less than desirable feet? 

And another thing... how is that "posty legged" is bad, but straight up-and-down short pasterns are desirable? Think about that.


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## burtfarms (Apr 4, 2013)

where is she coming from? i was looking at a doe here in colorado, that looks exact.i almost got her but the owner wanted $900. good luck she is nice


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Jessica84 said:


> Yeah no grain is a total plus for me, if anything for the fact she won't turn her nose up to what she'll get here lol
> Ok I've heard posty legs before and am totally lost on what that means. Can you explain? NOT disagreeing just simply don't know what that means
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


So I'm not too got at explaining, but I'll give explaining posty legs a try 

The way I see it is if a goat has posty legs, they are lacking 'joint bendi-ness'. The hip is so straight up/down that the leg doesn't always move proper...it doesn't want to move too far back or too far forward. Leading to short stiff steps. The hock is the same way. Does that make any sense? I hope someone else explains it too! 



Tenacross said:


> I have a comment about pasterns that I've wanted to get out for awhile now...
> My main experience in evaluating conformation in animals is in horses. Race horses. In a race horse your main concern is whether the animal can withstand the rigors of training and racing. It's not about appearance for judges. I highly doubt that the physics of different four legged animals are completely different. The ideal pastern in a horse is of moderate length and at a 45 degree angle. Too long and the the tendons and ligaments will take too much strain. Too short and the animal will not have an adequate "shock absorber" mechanism for a comfortable "smooth" gait, thus causing difficulties for bone and joints. The same is true for the angle. Too flat an angle - strain on tendons and ligaments. Too steep - stubby, ground pounding gait. I can accept that "ideally" a goat should have a slightly steeper angle, but not to an extreme.


Well said, Tim! Totally agree with you. An ideal Kiko pastern is 45 degrees as well.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Cedar point I'm not sure I get it but that's ok lol I totally get what your saying but just can't see from a picture how you people can tell.
Honestly none of my goats have a total straight up and down pastern like you see on show goats. I'm sure it has to do with my hoof trimming abilities, or maybe genetics lol and I'm not overly concerned about it. They get around just fine and I don't show so I'm ok with it. I mainly just wanted to see what everyone's pros and cons were, it won't change my mind, well if I show up and she looks totally different then I might 
But she is in California and so NOT $900 lol at first I thought she was expensive but if she looks like a $900 goat I feel like I'm getting a deal 


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I don't think I could describe the posty look much better Cedar Point. 

Both posty legged and weak pasterned goats are mentioned in the Boer breed standards. http://abga.org/education/breed-standards/definition-of-terms-for-breed-standards/

Her pasterns look long and a little weak to me. Not ideal. Just my opinion. It's not that big of a deal to some people obviously, and there's no problem with that. I've just been trained to look for and want that with my goats from hearing judges mention it all the time in the show ring.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok posty legs were just not meant for me to get 
No crossroads thank you for your opinion!!! I don't know if I will ever raise show quality goats but I still want to learn what is looked at and how to tell, so thank you 


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

First picture, hind legs straight, no angles to the joints...Posty.










Second picture, hind legs nice and angular, lots of bend and give to absorb impact when walking and running...Not Posty...










Hope that helps! :wave:


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Sure, no problem.  She's a nice doe altogether and I like her even more considering she's not on grain. A goat on grain can look waaaaay different (usually better) than a goat on grass/hay only. She looks like she's on grain which is a very very good thing considering she's not.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Thank you Kat! Very good example pics.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Totally get it now!!! Thank you  


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

How would a goat person define "weak"? The ABGA says:
"Weak/Down in the pasterns – pasterns are weak and give when the goat walks or stands. A goat that may walk on his/her dewclaws is considered severe."
I think this is wrong headed in that the very reason God created a pastern is to "give". My point being, "give" is not all bad. And is certainly better than "no give".
Weak to me would be: Incapable of holding the goat. Which is the ABGA's definition of "severe". Which common sense would tell you is bad.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well I looked at my does today lol I have quite a few posty legged gals on my hands lol but that's ok cause they are still good girls  but just curious it this something that is genetic or simply they do or the don't? I won't be culling anyone over it just wondering.



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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Most of my girls are a little posty legged too.  Some worse than others. It's definitely not a cull factor IMO! But yes, I do think it's genetic.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

My poor son will never do well with any of our own raised goats lol I better tell him to save his money while he's still to young to show lol


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Aw hey, don't say that. You've got some very nice goats and just need to get them in the show ring more often and hear what the judge says.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

She's home  she looks so much better in person. Her top for sure isn't straight BUT look!!! A butt......I think my first doe with a butt lol

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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

She is still young isn't she? Her back will get straighter as she grows so don't worry to much.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes she just turned 8 months old so fairly young. I'm not to worried about it since everything else out weights.that to me lol I guess she is normally a very sweet girl but they couldn't see her tattoo very well so they redid it so shes not very happy. I figure since shes already unhappy ill do her vaccines today so she.can get over all her mad at once lol


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

She is just as gorgeous as the other pics. Can't wait to see how she grows!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Me either  or to breed her lol I think her and Starchy will have purdy kids


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

She's cool.


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