# Lost the prettiest little doeling what can I do next time?



## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Background: 4 year old ND FF. Covered by a ND buck. My first time too.

I had been checking her regularly and things were progressing fine. Arrived at the barn this morning and saw the thick amber goo rope. She started pushing. 30 minutes later she stopped pushing and looked exhausted (she could have been pushing for a while before I got there, it had been a couple of hours since my last check because she seemed like she wasn't in labor yet). I realized something was wrong, so I tried to go in. 2 hooves out of the sac. Thought they were back hooves. She would only push if my fingers were stretching her vulva. I pulled a little with her pushes and got hooves out. They were front hooves. Tried to feel for the head and couldn't feel it with 2 fingers in all the way. Her vulva was so small, it felt like I was about to tear her. I was alone, so I couldn't hold her still and reach my hand in after the head and if I hit more than 3 fingers in she ran away crying. I didn't want to sit on her to hold her down and end up hurting her. Got my husband to come home from work and hold her for me. By the time he got there it was an hour and a half after I had arrived and she was shaking. I had tried pushing baby back in to make room for my hand, but she would push hard then and the baby would not go back. I figured baby couldn't have survived head back out and of the sac this long, so I just pulled with momma's wimp pushes while my husband kept momma from running away. Baby arrived dead with head fully twisted back. Single large baby. Placenta delivered and fell out fully detached within ten minutes.

Question: should I have sat on her and forced my whole hand in, even if she tore? She was a first freshener, so she has never been stretched that much until baby came out. Yesterday I couldn't get even get 2 fingers in without getting a thin circle stretched so right a thought she would tear. Could the placenta have been through the cervix already and in the way of baby going backward where I could have turned her head around? I feel torn between thinking I didn't do enough and thinking it's just life, that I can't control how baby enters the birth canal, and I should be relieved that I could at least save the momma.:sad:


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## dnchck (Mar 24, 2014)

No advise , but so sorry you lost the little one. Hopefully, someone on here has had your experience and shed some light on it. Again, so sorry! Glad mama is doing good!


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Thanks. I hope someone can give me some good advice. I have another doe due in a month and a half, and I hope it goes better than this time.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

So sorry for the loss.  Good job helping the mama though! 

I've never been through a kidding before but the only thing I can think of would be to tie her up. It might help next time to maybe put some eye screws into the wall in the stall so you can tie her easily in case of an emergency. That's the only idea I have!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

30 minute rule, if the kid isn't out within that time frame or sooner, go in.

If you seen her pushing then stop, it was because of a problem. When they push they are indeed in labor. And do not stop. She was just exhausted and the kid was dead, so no urge to push.


She didn't dilate all the way so that is when we go and help. With 2 fingers start going slightly inside of her vulva area, gently pull outward against her inner vulva wall, go all the way around, it may take a few times. And really working at it. You want to eventually work your hand in there so you can get to the kid in trouble. It is called manually stimulating her to dilate. 
If though, this does not work, a vet may have to do a c-section if the kid is too big ect to save the Doe or other kids. 

Head back position is a hard one to get out, a vet should be called if you have no idea, how to proceed. But can be done, most of the time these cases do not survive or they are born alive and die soon after. Though, I have saved all but 1. You have to get in there within the 30 minutes and get the kid out, never wait past that, the survival will be limited.

Does will push when we have our hand or fingers past a certain point. 

When there is no head, we have to gently push the legs back in, and fish for the head, you will feel the neck first. grab that and gently as you can pull the kid forward try to cover the mouth as you are re-positioning the kid. When you get the kid in the right position, don't let go of the head it will go right back into the bad position. At the same time with the other hand grab the kids leg and pull at the same time , still holding onto the head. Or have a helper pull on the legs at the same time you are pulling the head out. 

A vulva opening can go through a lot, but yes try not to tear her. That is why we have to manually dilate them. Or get a vet to do it.

When I am alone, I grab one back leg and with the other, I fish for the kid, if you have to tie her up, do so, but have it to where she can lay down and not choke, using a dog collar helps.

When they push against your hand stop until she stops pushing, then proceed do this every time she tries and still work on that kid. 

They can indeed survive if the sac is broken, it is when the umbilical cord gets severed they are in danger. And must be deliver ASAP. I never give up until that baby is born and hope I am in time to save it. But I do have to say, if the kid is smaller with head back, it is possible they can just be pulled. I did deliver one that way and it lived because I was in there within 30 minutes or less. As soon as you see them push with no process and you see there is feet but no head, go in then. You want to see 2 hooves and the head in the middle. 

A kid can be born breech, no need to re-position them.

Sorry for the loss. 

Glad the placenta is delivered. 

No, do not sit on her, but yes, work your hand in there, you will have to force a bit, but be as gentle as possible without ripping her. 
Sometimes they can get ripped around the vulva area. It can happen, it is OK. But try not to. That is why you manually stimulate all the way around the inner wall. If she is ripped internally that is bad, she will bleed out.

The placenta usually comes after the kid is born. No, it wasn't in the way.

I don't know how the heads get back like that so badly but, when it happens it is a pain.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Very sorry for your loss...Pam gave sound advice....lets hope you wont need it next kidding. I had to do a hard delivery solo..it can be hard. If you can ....get the doe in a small pen. This can be an actual pen or open a gate and get behind it so you and the doe are between the gate and wall or fence, like a triangle...she's not going to like your help but she needs it...keep that in mind when you are afraid of hurting her....I know its hard...lots of deep breaths and keep your mind clear of fear...

((hugs))


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

A four year old FF has stopped growing and all the growth plates have hardened. Since she never had a kid while her plates were still soft and able to adjust to new things, there is a good chance that her pelvis couldn't spread, tail bone couldn't raise, or the pin bones couldn't swing out of the way. All of these things have to happen to allow a kid to pass.


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## VVFarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I'm so sorry for how your first kidding went. That is a really hard initiation to goat midwifery.
I think you handled it very well. Please don't be hard on yourself. AT ALL. Had MY first kidding gone like that I probably would have just started bawling instead of handling it like you did.
Pam already gave good advise. I just wanted to add that you did great and your next birth should go great.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I'm so sorry to hear what you & your goat went through! What awful luck that your first kidding was so rough! They almost always are normal. Your post reminds me to keep the vet's phone # in the birth box, & try to grab a cell phone before heading out to check the doe.


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## slackwater (Jul 24, 2015)

goathiker said:


> A four year old FF has stopped growing and all the growth plates have hardened. Since she never had a kid while her plates were still soft and able to adjust to new things, there is a good chance that her pelvis couldn't spread, tail bone couldn't raise, or the pin bones couldn't swing out of the way. All of these things have to happen to allow a kid to pass.


 I didn't know this happened - at what age do their growth plates close?


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Thank you everyone for the support and Pam for the advice. 

I live so rural that the nearest vet is 3 hours away. She does do house calls, but would not have made it out to me in time. I have a neighbor who is a good mentor and knows goats, but she happened to be out of state this week and couldn't help.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm sorry for your loss.

The only advice I can add to Pam's description is that in cases where the head is turned back, sometimes the easiest way to get it is to grab the kids ear or bottom jaw to swing it around and get the nose pointing forward. And she is so right, once you have a hole of that bottom jaw pointing forward, don't let go as it will swing right back around!

These illustrations are very helpful (and beautiful!) for visualizing when assistance is needed:

http://www.gryphontor.com/youre-kidding---dont-panic.html


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

So sorry you had a bad ordeal and your mentor was out of state, that is very sad. 
Does code of honor, they seem to kid at the worst times.

I want to clarify what i meant by breach, I was stating in a normal breach position. I mentioned this prior, forgot their were other breach positions as well. It is when both back legs are present, not folded under that the kid can just be pulled out, if they are breech but legs are not presenting then you must re- position the kid and then pull the backs legs, then the kid is born..

Thanks everyone, glad to help. 

Good link Saltey.

I do have to say, I bought and tried the snare. I couldn't for the life of me get it to work, getting it over the kid and afraid to cut into the doe. I found reaching in deep, following the neck to the head worked quicker for me. I fought with the snare for a bit and then said forget it.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Great advice. Only thing I can add I haven't tried, but helped with. My vet needed to pull several kids at my neighbors this year. She tied a piece of twine around both hooves before going in to fish around for the head. Once she got the head I held steady tension on the twine while we gently pulled the kid out. That way we didn't lose the front legs while fishing around. Clean twine too.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good idea, thanks for sharing.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Good idea! Thank you all


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You bet.


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