# Newbie needs answers



## creaturesall

First off, a big Canadian hello to each and all! I am ashamed to say that my very first post brings with it an abundance of questions and a dearth of advice. If I have inadvertently posted in the wrong thread, please forgive and feel free to move it.

To set the record straight, I am a long-time publisher and a short-time goat guy. Rather than bore you with the details re: how a publisher and 3 fainters came to be house partners, (you can find those details on my web site http://www.creaturesall.com) I will just boldly reveal my ignorance re: all things goat. Any help/advice will be both appreciated and taken to heart.

1) In the area of Canada were I, my 2 dogs (all female), 3 horses (all female), 3 Fainters (all female) and 1 wife (also, all female) reside, winters get cold and the snow can get deep. I have built a goat shed and insulated it against the elements. Question # 1 is, should I heat it? If so, what method is most efficient and safest? I have a new kerosene space heater and the shed is vented. Would that be a good option or should I run electricity?

2) They have good brougham grass pasture right now and I am supplementing that with a Selenenium/salt mix as well as baking soda (both free choice). I have purchased several bales of 50% alfalfa/50% brouham grass for the winter. Question # 2 , Should I build them a feeder outside or inside their shed? Does it make any difference?

3) With temperatures often dropping to -10 degrees F and lower(sometimes to -40F), how do they get any exercise during the winter? Is it important they exercise?

4) Should I close their door overnight in order to trap in heat or is that a bad idea? Do they need to go outside at any time overnight?

5) One of the larger of the 3 goats seems to bully the other two, especially when it comes to staying in the shed. This morning, with temps well below freezing, I found the 2 larger in the shed and the smallest sleeping on the grass by the entrance. Is there a way to make sure all 3 can stay indoors? Is it enough to just lock 'em in?

6) I just have one large common area in the shed? Would I be wise to break that up into stalls? Would that allow each their own spot and thereby see the smaller didn't get butted out?

7) I got these 3 about a month ago, and they are all pets, with no other purpose or challenge in life but to enjoy themselves and stay healthy. They are all a year old, give or take, and they are all horned. What can I do to minimize the damage they can do with those sharp and ever growing horns, to each other or to visitors?

8) The vet drops by Monday of next week for an introduction to the goats and to help me make sure all are healthy going into the winter. Any questions or concerns I should make sure I point out to her? She is very 'goat savvy' as she travels the world lecturing on goat in vitro fertilization. (It is only through the blessing of 'spellchek' I was even able to communicate what it is she lectures on).

Soooo... that's about it for now. It may not look like it but I did use the search function to try to find answers on my own. These are the questions I couldn't track down an answer for. Thanks in advance. I'll try to contribute some as the goats, hopefully, grow up and I, hopefully, wisen up.


----------



## enjoytheride

Til somone more experienced in that cold of weather-
I would never use a heater for healthy adclt goats- once you start heating, you may find they can not deal with the cold so well. They should fuzz up fine- fainters are Tennessee goats and it can get cold in some parts of Tennesse. Sick or young goats might need some extra warmth. 
The hay diet is good (brome being the same as brougham?) if they can't hold their weight with hay, then adding grain in cautious amounts is ok but the alfalfa mix will give them lots of calories- just change over slowly.. They will need a mineral mix with more than selenium/salt. There are lots of good goat loose mineral mixs- the ones for sheep will not have the copper goats need so if it for sheep or both sheep and goats, it will not work long term for goats.
If you bed deeply and their house doesn't have drafts, they should do ok- I wouldn't ever use a kerosine heater and am highly cautious with heat lamps too. 
Make sure they have all the ice free water they want though. Putting some warm water out for them a couple of times a day will be appreciated.
Watch any wiring you have around goaties- they nibble on things.
The "odd man out" symdrome is a problem for everyone- I usually try to make an easily escapable seperate place for the picked on one. 
Everything?
Welcome hope you have great fun with your goaties- I have horses too but enjoy the goats even more.

PS I forgot, like horse, goats get warmth from the activity of their stomach so hay helps keep them warm too.


----------



## PACE

Welcome to the GoatSpot!  

It sounds like you are already doing a great job with them. 

1) You shouldn't have to heat it. As long as it is free of drafts they will stay fine. You still want it to be well ventilated, though. Goats need air.

2) In the winter I reccomend they get free choice hay, or at least a couple of flakes each a day. Hay really helps them keep warm more than anything. If there will be lots of smow outside (which I assume there will be :wink: ) you might do best with an inside hay feeder. I have one inside the shed for my three goats and one outside, for when it is nice out. I fill the inside one at night when the weather is good, or also in the morning when it is bad. I put hay outside only in the morning in good weather because otherwise they leave it overnight and it gets dew on it, then they don't eat it... picky goats!

Also, you might want to start giving them each about a cup of grain a day to help keep their condition during winter.

3) How big is their shed? I shovel paths for my goats in the snow... only a little path to the gate then clear a bigger spot for them by the outside hay racks... otherwise they won't come out. They are okay with the cold (though our temps don't get as cold as yours!) as long as they have access to shelter. I think excercise, at least being able to strech their legs, is important.

4) Drafts are what you most want to keep out. They should be okay with an open door if the shelter stays draft-free. My boys have the option to go in or stay out whenever they want. Heat isn't the biggest issue, as I don't think just shutting the door will help all that much. Remember you still need ventilation if the door is shut. Another thing to consider is predators. If there are lots of predators around it might be wisest to keep the goats locked up at night.

5) It should be enough to just lock them in. But she still might be stuck outside during the day... you might want to invest in a big doghouse. That way, just in case the others keep her out, she has a sheltered place to go.

6) Again, how big is the shed. My boys like to snuggle together. I wouldn't make separate stalls for each of them, but I'm not sure how it would work. MAybe someone else can help you on that.

7) I don't have horned goats, so the only advice I can give is to not grab them. That will make them use them on you more. I know of someone who taped a piece of hose over both horns. It kept them from getting stuck in the fence and got rid of sharp edges, but the goats looked pretty funny! Personally I think they will be fine, just don't grab the horns or ever let them boss you around with them.

Welcome to the wonderful world of goats! We'd love to see pictures of your girls!


----------



## Rockytopsis

Well the others have answered all your questions and I agree with them, especially the part about no heat in the barn. Deep beding and no drafts should do fine. You might want to use the heaters that go in the water though, as goats will drink the water better in the winter if it is not icy cold.

To answer the question of the horns, my advise it to get used to them. LOL Most goats do not mean to use them against their owners. All ours have horns, one of them looks like a small long horn steer hers are so huge. Just remind your visitors to keep a eye out for them. Thats what I do.

I looked around the site you posted and all your goats are very pretty. I really liked the 2 white ones.


----------



## getchagoat (Julie)

Welcome! 

You are doing a good job with your girls...and so many girls and you are the only male. Poor man. 

I agree, no heat in the barn, just watch for drafts and put the deep bedding. If the shed isn't permanently attached to the ground already, face it away from the wind.

Definitely work the goat up to the alfalfa, giving a little more every few days. It is very rich. The protein is as much as a good grain.

If you run a de-icer to your water, be sure to run the cord through conduit, otherwise the goats might chew the wires. Ours LOVE wires!

As far as exercise, when it's cold, but not horribly cold, they'll like the cooler weather and play, much like the horses do when it gets around 30 degrees. As for the colder temps, I'd do the shoveling thing as mentioned.

If you don't have a guard animal, I'd lock them in at night, as long as there's ventilation. Fainters are easy prey. Of course, with your bully situation, the shed needs to be big enough they don't pound each other.

Rockytop is dead on about the horns. They aren't that big a deal.

Again, welcome!!


----------



## Rockytopsis

Thought I would post a picture of Byllie Girl here, she is Boer/Sannan and a wonderfull goat, but she takes a wide path when she walks through anywhere LOL


----------



## fritzie

having lived in maine where it gets pretty cold i would say that as long as the opening is so the wind isn't going in & the snow they should be fine. they will build up there coat to accomadate the weather. i would try to make a place that the one that they pick on can get to. some times just a short wall for her to go behind works. plus you can put a hay rack in each section so she can get hay. other than that i agree with what every one else said. i would never but a heater in the barn with them especially kerosene or any thing with an open flame.
as to the vet i would ask about cd&t shots & fecal check or worming.


----------



## PACE

Rockytopsis, what awesome horns!!!


----------



## liz

WELCOME! Here in western PA it doesn't get THAT cold...but all my minis adjust their winter coat accordingly. I definately would not heat your shed..you run the risk of catastrophe as well as sick goats. My little barn is as draft free as possible and the ventilation they need to prevent respiratory problems is up under the eaves. Lots of hay...and mind you goats are "Hay Burners" as my hubby calls them...they seem to waste more than anything! But thats a plus to you as they will use it for bedding. I seldom have water buckets that freeze solid..usually only an inch or so, easy enough to break and fill with warm water. Minerals that are specific to goats would be best...a mineral block with added copper should suffice. And it's great that you have a "goat literate" vet handy! The most commonly used vaccine for goats is CD/T...your vet will know this...as well as to do a fecal and worm them if neccessary. Mine do ok in the snow..its funny to see a pregnant mini in 4-6 inches of snow..not only do their bellies hit it but so does their udders! Then I have to make sure their teats aren't frost bit! Mine are usually locked in on cold winter nights and I do have 3 does with horns and 1 without...not an issue with me and baldy does hold her own...I just had hubby make them a bench that they do everything but sleep on and baldy Binky will hide under it if the other 3 get too agressive. So maybe depending on the size of your shelter a short wall for the odd one out to hide behind or even as suggested before..a large dog box for her to go into.


----------



## redneck_acres

If using a heat lamp you want it far enough off the ground that the goats cannot get to it. We lost a barn and the kid crop one year from a heat lamp fire.


----------



## StaceyRosado

seems like your questions were covered

You are doing a good job with them I am sure.


I will just say WELCOME to The Goat Spot


----------



## alyssa_romine

I just wanted to welcome you to The Goat Spot. I was going to say what everyone else did.


----------



## creaturesall

*Thanks sooo much!!*

I really appreciate the warm welcome and sage advice. Last night, with temps around +20F I chose, rightly or wrongly, to close the 'exit door' to the girl's shed. My reasons were two-fold. Firstly, I wanted to find out if the combined body heat from 3 small year-olds would be enough to keep their water from freezing. Closing their small door helped trap whatever heat they were able to generate. Well, their water did, in fact, remain thawed... so, that's a good thing. Secondly, I wanted to see if forcibly confining them would encourage them to play nice. Obviously, no one could get 'kicked out' in the cold if their door remain closed. Well, this morning at 5:30 or so, I looked in on 'em with a small treat and all seemed well. None seemed under stress, all were in close proximity and, most telling, when I opened their exit, all choses to remain indoors for the next 1.5 hrs or so, even though their exit to the outside world remained accessible. So, I will try building on tha again this evening and see what tomorrow brings.

Next on the agenda is to build a feeder. I have been looking at all sorts of concepts and ideas on this and other boards and believe I will put together a wall mounted manger, approx 6' wide by 30" high. In profile, it will be triangular or hooper-like with the wider opening (perhaps 18") at the top tapering down to 6" or so at the bottom. The front side, from which they will feed, will be 4" sq wire mesh and they can each find their own spot from which to pull hay. Many designs I've seen encourage putting the feeder at such a height as the goats will be forced to stand with their front feet on a ledge in order to reach their munchies. Not sure the why of that but I will go with the flow and make it so.

So again, a big thank you!!  If anyone sees a way in which I might improve upon this feeder design, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Everything I do re: the 3 ladies is done so based on an equal equal mix of hope and ignorance.


----------



## alyssa_romine

Your plan sounds fine. Yes, keeping them in at night is fine. I do that too if I find that they are shivering the night before. Mine have been in the barn only at night for the last 2 days. You are doing a fine job with your girls.


----------



## creaturesall

Thanks Alyssa. Today is totally a washout because I have to (get to?) go to a wedding, so I can't start construction on the feeder. And I REALLY want to start construction of that feeder. And next week, I need to get going on the next issue of *creaturesall* Life does get in the way, doesn't it?

I'll keep you posted 'til I hear a collective, "Gawd... I wish he would just shut up already!")


----------



## creaturesall

Thanks Alyssa. Today is totally a washout because I have to (get to?) go to a wedding, so I can't start construction on the feeder. And I REALLY want to start construction of that feeder. And next week, I need to get going on the next issue of *creaturesall* Life does get in the way, doesn't it?

I'll keep you posted 'til I hear a collective, "Gawd... I wish he would just shut up already!"


----------



## alyssa_romine

We won't say that...we enjoy hearing other people's experiences and opinions and what goes on with their goats.


----------



## enjoytheride

Well hardly anyone has told me to "shut up" (at least in so many words.) There are two reasons I see for having a feeder raised so they have to step on a ledge to eat- one is that it keeps their little poops out of the feeder and two it seems to make them less likely to grab a huge mouthful, lift their head up and let it dribble out on the ground. Of course once on the ground, it is unlikely they will eat it althoug if the feed is on the ground they will eat it till it's messed on or stepped on.


----------



## StaceyRosado

per the locking in at night:

Sounds like a good plan especially since the one tends to get pushed out. 

At night they tend to be more docile to one another but if the one thinks she is threatened then she will easily just leave or not even try ot get in. If forced together they usually get along. 

Oh and chat all you want


----------



## liz

Ya won't hear that here...the majority of us are polite...at least we try to be! lol . The hay racks being placed that way help alot in keeping hay dust out of the goaties eyes...thus preventing infections such as "pinkeye" And it seems to save on hay a bit. Good luck! "BTW...you sounded like MY hubby when he "has" to do something he doesn't want to do!!


----------



## redneck_acres

You know something that we have found that works for eye troubles is red wine-doesn't matter how cheap it is-just give a squirt in the goats eye until the irritation clears up. It really only stings like crazy the first time and then they are fine on the next treatments.


----------



## getchagoat (Julie)

I'd heard that about red wine before.


----------



## creaturesall

redneck_acres said:


> You know something that we have found that works for eye troubles is red wine-


Well, after attending that wedding today, I can say from personal experience, too much red wine can also cause pink eye.


----------



## StaceyRosado

ROFL!!!


----------



## redneck_acres

hehe.........aint that the truth!!!!  It suppsedly works on humans to that have eye troubles.


----------



## liz

> Well, after attending that wedding today, I can say from personal experience, too much red wine can also cause pink eye.


LOL! Let me just say that I like your sense of humor!
It also sounds as though you are going to have some very spoiled goaties.


----------



## creaturesall

Well now, if you call it '_spoiling_' them through my being their personal hand-servant who feeds, cleans and chatters inanely about stuff no goat (nor fellow human, for that matter) could possibly care about, then yes, I guess they are. 
I admit to having two, now very senior dogs, whose combined expenses over their fourteen year lifespan has, to date, cost us more than would a 5 bedroom, beach-side Tuscany retreat. I justify acceptance of those expenses by telling myself I am setting a good example for my children. 
Truth is, what Iâ€™m really doing is seeking to avoid having those same children address my rapidly deteriorating prognosis, sometime in my not too distant future, with sentiments like, â€œWell, he is pretty old and heâ€™s led a good long life. And fifty bucks is a lot to spend on a sixty year old leg. Itâ€™s probably best for everyone if we just have him put down.â€
So, lavishly pampering my dogs (and goats) (oh yeah, and horses) is my preemptive strike aimed at avoiding my premature demise and, by that means, ensure I live long enough to become both a financial and a physical burden to both of my children.
Today, I build the hay feeder and make a run over to the neighbor's to pick up that alalfa/brome mix. Any ideas how much hay to feed daily to three, one year old, very needy goats? Should I just give 'em free choice or does it need to be rationed? To this point, and for a bit longer before the snow falls, they have had free access to grazing brome grass from their pasture. Will it hurt to let them continue to graze a bit and then supplement the now brown grass wih the alfalfa/brome bails?


----------



## liz

Right now...mine get out to browse in the still very green field...I only pen mine when I'm at work or at night...even though they have plenty green stuff in their yard they will only eat on the other side of the fence. I have 6 mini's and the 2 boys get a flake of hay at night to last throughout the morning til I get off work and let them out. The 4 does get 4 flakes...they pick through it and it satisfies them...pretty much whatever you feel that they will eat and not waste. If you give them a half bale and find half of it stomped into the floor...then your giving too much..and you can adjust accordingly. A hay rack is beneficial in reducing waste and most times what ends up on the floor is what they found distasteful. Seeing as how they don't have the green pasture you should be able to fill their rack...don't know how much it will hold...and this should be enough for them. If you are finding it empty within a few hours and no waste then just add more to it. I do know that my mom gives her goats...Toggenburg and Boer wethers a half a bale a day...this is in a rack and theres 5 of them plus a mini doe. It does last them from a.m to p.m.


----------



## redneck_acres

Ours get a couple flakes a day per goat and have access to pasture. When they are milking they get a small grain scoop full of grain two times a day day as we milk two times a day. I have heard of a few folks who still give their does grain during the dry off season-but we dont as it saves $ and it doesn't really seem to hurt them any as they have access to pasture, hay, and minerals.Anything hay that is left in the feeders-mostly stems- is fed to the steers or the bucks-so we dont really have any hay waste which is nice.


----------



## sungoats

creaturesall said:


> I justify acceptance of those expenses by telling myself I am setting a good example for my children.
> Truth is, what Iâ€™m really doing is seeking to avoid having those same children address my rapidly deteriorating prognosis, sometime in my not too distant future, with sentiments like, â€œWell, he is pretty old and heâ€™s led a good long life. And fifty bucks is a lot to spend on a sixty year old leg. Itâ€™s probably best for everyone if we just have him put down.â€
> So, lavishly pampering my dogs (and goats) (oh yeah, and horses) is my preemptive strike aimed at avoiding my premature demise and, by that means, ensure I live long enough to become both a financial and a physical burden to both of my children.


 :lol: hahahahaha :lol:


----------



## creaturesall

redneck_acres said:


> Ours get a couple flakes a day per goat and have access to pasture.


Thanks ******* and Liz. I believe i will try the above formula, utilizing the feeder I never made today. (_Oh well, perhaps tomorrow will prove more cooperative_) They can still graze the brown brome pasture until snowfall, and I'm hoping that will do the trick. If I increase the ration to 2 flakes morning and 2 flakes nightly/goat once they can no longer pasture, will that keep 'em healthy and happy? These 3 will never have meat, milk or mating issues to deal with so I'm hoping I won't have to give much extra in the way of supplements.


----------



## PACE

creaturesall said:


> redneck_acres said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ours get a couple flakes a day per goat and have access to pasture.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks ******* and Liz. I believe i will try the above formula, utilizing the feeder I never made today.
Click to expand...

LOL! Isn't that how it always is... :roll:

Your plan sounds good. You might start off with more like 1 flake/goat morning and then again in the evening, so each goat gets 2 flakes a day. I'm no expert with bigger goats, but my 3 wethers get about 4 flakes of hay a day between them (I feed about 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening) and it lasts them so it's about free choice. In the winter they do go through more, however, but not ever 4 flakes of hay a day per goat. Since your area gets so cold it might be a good idea, though and your girls might eat more. This is just my experience. Though it would be better to have too much rather than too little.


----------



## creaturesall

I have another neighbor whose heart has gone out to my goats in their sad misfortune of having escaped the abattoir only to find themselves adopted by yours truly. He has offered me as many FREE bales of flax straw as I care to take, to use as bedding for the 3 ladies. My question... is flax straw an acceptable bedding for goats?


----------



## enjoytheride

I have always been under the impression that flax (linum) is toxic -i have seen it on toxic plant lists but this could be a hangover from thinking about horse. Goats seem to be more tolerant than horses where their food is concerned. I would check that he really means flax (so many plants have more than one name) and maybe ask if anyone around you has actually put it around animals. I would wonder if they would eat it at all.


----------



## creaturesall

enjoytheride said:


> I have always been under the impression that flax (linum) is toxic


Hmmm.. many thanks '*enjoytheride*'. After reading your post I did a Google search on the phrase, "Flax (linum) is toxic" and came up with the following:

The chemical composition of Linum has been well studied because of the commercial
use of Linum usitatissimum and because members of the genus have long been used for
medicinal purposes (Frohne and Pfander 1984, Foster and Duke 1990). Members of the
genus Linum contain the cyanogenic glycoside linaniarin, which upon hydrolysis forms prussic
acid or hydrogen cyanide (Frohne and Pfander 1984). Byproducts of commercially grown flax
have been mixed in low concentrations with other grains to feed cattle, but in high
concentrations flax can be toxic and has been known to kill sheep and hogs (Pammel 1992).
Linum is not toxic to humans, and members of the genus have been used medicinally for a
broad range of ailments including colds, lung and urinary tract problems, tumors, burns, and skin
problems (Frohne and Pfander 1984).

I will rethink the bedding issue. Truth be told, I'm wondering if I need to actually have bedding at all. I have build their shed with a tongue and grooved wood floor upon which I've laid plastic sheeting. Over that is 2" of dense styrofoam insulation with 2" thick, heavy, interlocking and perforated flooring material. To top that off, I've laid 3/4" of rubber matting; good for both warmth and traction. The walls and ceiling are draft free; insulated with the same 2" styrofoam as I put on the floor and ventilated to the outside. I've built their doorway such that when they enter from the south facing opening they are abruptly turned left in order to enter their space from the east. That way, any wind that may come up is blocked and buffeted by walls. North, east and west winds have no direct means of entering their space and a south wind (_very rare here_) is forced to bend a corner before making its way to their shared space.

Given all that, Is straw bedding even necessary? As it is, it is very easy to clean up every morning and it may not prove so convenient once I introduce straw bedding. Then again, perhaps left as it is now, things may be just a little too sterile and clinical??

On another front, today I will run buried cable to the new goat shed in order to have light at night and a plug in close at hand for when I need to run tools (_so I can get that feeder built... really, I am gonna build it... honest_) and/or a shop vac (_great for picking up berries, I've learned_) Thanks again! This forum and the folk who people it are terrific!


----------



## StaceyRosado

the straw or hay is softer for them and will provide somethign for them to "snuggle" into.

Don't you like sleeping on a soft bed with covers? 

The whole area doesn't need to be covered in a foot of it but enough to provide a insultor as they lay still at night or during the day.

With my animals i don't clean it out every day. The decomposing hay puts off heat.


----------



## enjoytheride

To be gross- where does the pee from your goats go? My small shed has rubber stall mats on the floor- in the summer, I don't bed as I clean every morning including the pee which dries rapidly. In the winter the pee does not dry and I put in something to absorb it. Also when they kid I put in lots of straw for snuggle warmth for the babies. 
If you can get away without bedding, more to the good as no one needs more material for composting. I'd be interested in hearing what happens. It never hurts to give a try.
Also you might think about wood pellets as an alternative to straw. I have used Woody Pellets here, which are like wood stove pellets except they fulff up more easily. They also compost much more easily and are less messy than straw.


----------



## creaturesall

Stacy, you're right of course. I do like a nice mattress and soft blankets. These days, now that I am more rheumatic than romantic, it seems especially important. Wood chips seem like a good option, unless they prove too expensive. Don't the goats like to eat wood chips? Is that a problem? My 3 seem to always be gnawing on something or other they shouldn't... my lilacs, caragana, willows & poplars. Basically, if I want to grow it, they make it their mission to see that I don't.


----------



## liz

It would actually be better for them to have something to absorb their "p" ...wood shavings are good as is the pellets...mine are curious enough to taste them but they don't eat them. Around here a "bale" of pine shavings run anywhere from $4to $7 also any hay that they drop and trample is good enough for bedding...since your girls are destined "maidens" that should be the only bedding they would need and even though their house is weather proofed they still like to "bed down"


----------



## creaturesall

Muchos gracias Liz! Thanks for the advice. Wood chips it is. 

Got the electric cable buried today That's the hard part. Tomorrow I will hook up the power... that's the fun part. And then I've promised myself I will build the feeder and begin production on the next issue of "creaturesall".


----------



## alyssa_romine

you need to watch them though because if they eat the shavings, it may make them ill.


----------



## creaturesall

liz said:


> It would actually be better for them to have something to absorb their "p" ...wood shavings are good as is the pellets...





alyssa_romine said:


> you need to watch them though because if they eat the shavings, it may make them ill.


I'm not sure which way to go now. The Farm store where I bought the shavings said they were OK for goats. How can I watch them at night when they are in there? Does anyone else use wood shavings? Has anyone else had negative results?


----------



## StaceyRosado

as long as the wood shavings dont have anything sprayed on them they will be fine.

Goats like to nibble on things even if they don't eat it.


----------



## fritzie

first let me say i just love your sence of humor  i can relate to the more rhumatic than romantic.
i have always used straw in the winter & shavings in the summer. my goats will eat some of both when i first put it down but usually not enough to hurt them. mine also love to roll in the freash shavings. i get the pine shavings. just make sure as said before that they are not sprayed with any thing or that they are not treated wood.
your barn sounds great. just make sure they have enough ventilation.


----------



## StaceyRosado

ventilation is usally higher up so that it doesnt cause drafts down where the goats are.


----------



## creaturesall

Regarding ventilation, their shed has a peaked roof in which I've installed 8" sq vents on opposite gables. I then completely insulated the inside ceiling, running 2" of styrofoam horizontally, creating a flat ceiling, not peaked like the roof. In that flat ceiling I left an empty uninsulated strip of space 2" wide by the entire length of the shed. Air is allowed to vent up through that empty space and into the double ventilated attic space above. I'm actually more concerned I may have too much ventilation as hot air rises and cold air falls. I'll watch how things play out as winter progresses. If their water freezes then I will use that as a signal it is perhaps too cold and will block off one of the two vents.

On that note... woke up this morning to a cold, bleak landscape covered in an inch or so of fresh snow. I hate it, the dogs hate it, the horses hate it and so do the goats, I suspect. Yesterday was 50 F and sunny, today it is gray and below freezing. Some poet or other speaks of the magic surrounding the changing of the seasons. I'm afraid the magic went out of winter a long time ago for me.


----------



## StaceyRosado

creaturesall, you will have water buckets freezing unless you heat that water. 

in the temperaturs you mentioned it is inevitable.

Remember goats don't mind the cold, it is just the wind and sleet that can cause issues for them.

My goats actually fair quite nicely during the winter while myself I am envious of how they cope in the cooler temps.

Heat tends to be harder on them then the cold.


----------



## creaturesall

Thanks for that Stacey. I actually have purchased a heated bucket but was planning on plugging it in outside of their shed in order to encourage them to get out and about a bit during the winter. The inside pail is just an ordinary plastic bucket. Do you think that it also would freeze up even with their body heat being trapped due to the insulated shed? I do have electricity run to the shed now. Nothing stopping me from putting the heated bucket indoors. Any pros or cons of one approach over the other?


----------



## StaceyRosado

you really are going to have to mess around with what works for you. My set up is not like yours and my temps are not exactly like yours so there will be differences on what works for me as opposed to what works for you.

The goats will be ok for a few hours if their water freezes so no need to panick about having liquid water available 24/7 though if you can that is a major plus


----------



## enjoytheride

Your goat certainly have more amenities than mine would even dream to have- here it's mostly tring to keep them dry. Although I get some snow and the temperatures run to the mid-20's, mostly it rain, rain, rain in the winter. I have been buying rubber mats and laying them as pathways for the goats to get out in the winter- I'm almost to their gate now.
It will be intersting to hear how your goats do with such things as an insulated barn. Some pictures would be great if you have them.


----------



## creaturesall

Thought you'd never ask lol  








Petunia, Daisy and Dolly enjoyin' the snow









Insulated interior with picture window









No drafts here









Early Canadian winter









South facing entrance









Gable vents


----------



## StaceyRosado

nice!!! I am sure they will totaly enjoy their winter


----------



## liz

Your girls are very sweet looking lil' goaties! And I am absolutely sure that they will be fine with the grand home that they have and their masters care!!


> I'm not sure which way to go now. The Farm store where I bought the shavings said they were OK for goats


Yep...you did ok with the pine shavings...and they should be just fine ...even without you watching them...they do nibble but unless they are actually eating mouthfulls...which I doubt...and the shavings you bought are specifically used for bedding and are ok for horses(meaning that there are no chemicals added to them)they will do just fine for goats...besides that the shavings usually end up UNDER dropped hay and us goat people know how finicky goats are about eating hay that they step on.


----------



## enjoytheride

Wow- what a neat barn. I think that with all that flat land, you probably get some strong winds and the sheltered entrance is a good idea.


----------



## creaturesall

Thanks all for the barn compliments and goat advice. I'm the first to admit that all this is child's play when I'm trying to raise 3 goats as pets. A whole other set of rules fall into play once you get yourself a breeding facility, as many of you have. My neighbor down the road has over 1000 mouths to feed (_goats and sheep_) 365 days a year. Don't think me or my shed are up to that!

Ran power today and will take another run at building a feeder tomorrow.


----------



## getchagoat (Julie)

Your goats are in heaven! One trick that works some of the time, put a plastic ball in the water. Where the ball is, it usually won't freeze. if they get where they aren't scared of it, they can still get to the water until you get in there the next time and break it for them. I used this with my horses. Some people suggest Apple Cider Vinegar. Ours still froze, just was brown. haha Personally, we try our hardest not to have anything plugged in in the barn for fear of barn fire. However, when we had feeders, we put the water in the corner (old mineral tub) and hooked up a lamp in the corner the goats couldn't get to and it kept the water melted. But I'm very leary of lamps.


----------



## alyssa_romine

Your girls will be fine this winter in that barn!! it looks great!


----------



## PACE

Your goats are so adorable! They are really living in luxury! And with a picture window and everything. It'll be like living in a house for them! 

Hey, wanna come to Massachusetts and make a shed like that for my three goats?  :wink:


----------



## redneck_acres

Wow what a nice barn!!! Glad we dont have any of that snow you have there yet.


----------



## creaturesall

Wouldn't ya know it?! All of that snow has already melted. I took those pix this morning around 10:00 or so, and the sun did its thing and now we're back to green... er.... make that brown pastures.


----------



## creaturesall

PACE said:


> Your goats are so adorable! They are really living in luxury! And with a picture window and everything. It'll be like living in a house for them!


I wrote on that very subject in the last issue of *creaturesall*. Have a gander at the blog entries, "Got yer Goatâ€"Parts 1 and 2" as well as, "Making a Clean Sweep". http://www.creaturesall.com They are only a mild exaggeration of events.


----------



## creaturesall

*Feeder Finally Finished*

I know!! I can hardly believe it myself. I finally got their feeder finished. The girlz seem to like it




























Since taking these pix, I've put down a bed of wood chips for them. Tonight we'll see if they choose to sleep indoors or out.

Thanks to all of you for your great advice, help and assistance! Dolly, Daisy and Petunia say *THANKS*, too!


----------



## StaceyRosado

NICE!!! love the manger.


----------



## PACE

Wow it looks great! What spoiled goats you have


----------



## liz

Great job!! You DO have spoiled goats!!!!


----------



## fritzie

good job. i am sure they will love it.


----------



## creaturesall

I just had my horses picked up so they can be boarded out over the winter in a place better equipped to handle their winter needs. That leaves me with about 3 acres that they were pasturing in that I'm thinkin' I might like to let my 3 girlz graze. Is there a problem with letting goats graze on pasture recently vacated by horses? I was concerned mostly about all the manure. Not sure if there is potential for the goats to inadvertently 'pick up' something.


----------



## StaceyRosado

goats are naturally picky eaters they should be perfectly fine on the pasture.


----------



## getchagoat (Julie)

It will actually be good for them as the horses eat up the worms that affect the goats. We were rotating our horses in front of our goats until we dry-lotted them.


----------



## creaturesall

That's why I love this place! Thanks so much! If I were left to my own devices I fear my girlz would revolt... 
and as my brother in law says, "There's nuthin' worse than revoltin' goats!" :sorry:


----------



## creaturesall

*Choking Hazard*

I went out to check on the girlz this morning, as I do every morning, and found that one of them had gotten her head stuck in the mesh of the feeder. She was standing virtually motionless and didn't even struggle when I twisted her head to release her horns. If she had been reaching high to feed I'm afraid she might have choked herself waiting for rescue. She seemed quite quiet and subdued, but did take a treat when I offered it and I've since seen her drinking. I can't be sure if she was caught for 10 mins or 10 hrs.

I'm wondering if they learn a lesson from such an incident and, if not, what have others done to deal with the problem. The mesh on the feeder is 6" sq. I have pictures of it posted earlier on in this thread. I will gladly change the design if someone has a safer alternative.


----------



## getchagoat (Julie)

She won't learn her lesson. What you can do to make the holes smaller is get the same stuff you used and set it to start halfway across the first 'square'. This cuts the size of the openings in half and they can't get stuck. That way you don't have to take down what you have.


----------



## liz

I agree with Julie. They will not learn their lesson! I have had to use bolt cutters to free Hank as he tends to lean to far in when the girls are close enough in their "portable grazing pen" , I have learned my lesson after the third time to not use the "all purpose" panels because they are cheaper....my minis won't learn so I had to go over the bottom half way up with the 2x1 woven wire...to prevent the kids from walking through it and to keep Hanks horns out of it too!  You should be able to do as Julie suggested..take another piece of the panel and turn it so that you have the squares half the size of what they are now...and tack it over the existing feeder, they will still be able to get their hay just won't get their heads stuck.


----------



## creaturesall

Thanks Liz 'n' Julie. So, just to be clear, I can interpret your instructions either of 2 ways. If the present opening is 6" x 6" and I stagger a second layer a half sq to the right and a half sq up, the spaces would now be cut in half, so that they are now each 3" sq. However, that seems a little small for them to be able to eat properly. Alternatively, I could also just shift the second layer a half sq to the right and not raise it at all, now ending up with spaces 3" wide x 6" high. Do you think that would be a mistake? (or is that what you meant?) Does a 3" x6" space allow them to feed but still keep them from jammin' their little noggins in where they shouldn't? Please forgive my apparent slowness to grasp the concept... after all, I'm just a man. :help:


----------



## enjoytheride

Not the voice of experience here as I do not keep horned goats but the size of the hole is just enough to get their muzzles in- not heir heads unless the opening is big enough to get the head and the growing horns in and out. I would also build them a small "footstool" underneath the feeder so they stand with their fronts higher than their rears by a a few inches. This will alow them to reach more of the hay and seems more comfortable for my girls. Also building a tray under the feeder has helped me with the waste (important for me as hay is about $18 a bale here.) If the girls have to stand up on something to eat, they have less tendancy to pull more out of the feeder and let it drop and more of a tendancy to eat the mouthful grabbed.


----------



## creaturesall

enjoytheride said:


> I would also build them a small "footstool" underneath the feeder so they stand with their fronts higher than their rears by a a few inches


I will rework the system sometime over this weekend. My concern with the shelf thing was that in the event one of them did get caught up, they would surely strangle when falling off the shelf. I think I may be over-thinking things here and should just follow the tried and true methods you have been kind enough to share with me. (I'll take pictures when I have it all completed)



enjoytheride said:


> Also building a tray under the feeder has helped me with the waste (important for me as hay is about $18 a bale here.)


YOIKS! :shocked: Bales are selling here for $3.50 ea.


----------



## liz

3 inches wide and 6 high should be ok...all they need is to be able to get their noses into it and grab a mouth full...I have racks made of oven racks and they are tall and narrow...the space is just wide enough for a mini nose to be able to grab and chew. I am going to use the 4x4 square panel to make a rack the length of the girls shed but I will have to get hubby to weld another panel so they are cut in half...my girls also have the tendency to "go in, but not be able to back out" For right now though I am using 1 oven rack for Chief and the girls and Hank has a plastic milk crate/ cube that I put his hay in...the girls have 3 of these too. I just pack them and they have to pull the hay out....better than it being on the floor as they won't even touch it then.

That said....take a panel the same width and height as what is already on the feeder and attach it ( bottom) half ways up from the bottom of the first row of squares so that you "halve" the squares. Secure the new panel to the old by wrapping a length of wire across the 2 panels and be sure to secure the sharp ends so nobody gets poked, this will keep them from trying to get their heads between the panels.


----------



## getchagoat (Julie)

We didn't move it up when we put the second panel on. Ours was around a round bale outside and we were keeping them from jumping on it and using the bathroom on it. They no longer got their heads stuck. I believe in prevention and if you think they might choke after climbing on a stool, follow your gut. That is your best way to go with animals as far as I've seen when you wonder what to do.


----------



## enjoytheride

I agree that having them step up to the manger could be a problem if there is anyway to get their heads inside it and get caught. At my place everything is a step up- hay and water as it keeps it berry free and allows them to avoid getting chaff falling into their eyes. And provides notice to one that the other might be going to aim a head butt at them. When someone steps off the ledge, the other keeps an eye on her til she steps back up again.


----------



## cute kids

i have just found this thread, and would say 'welcome' and i love your goatees. 
your barn, on the other hand, has a very glaring omission, unless it is on a wall not in the photo: no flat screen tv!!!!!????????????? what are you thinking???? the barn certainly has every other amenity. remember: these are SPOILED goats......


----------



## creaturesall

cute kids said:


> your barn has a very glaring omission: no flat screen tv!!!!!?????????????


Thanks CuteKid!

I have read your concerns and feel I must direct your attention to http://www.creaturesall.com/making-a-clean-sweep That should address all your questions :scratch: regarding TV in the goat shed. :leap: (_BTW... for all you Americans out there, the CBC I refer to in that blog stands for the *C*anadian *B*roadcasting *C*orporation._)


----------



## cute kids

thanks for the trip down memory lane via your utube site. my speakers are not hooked up yet (only in the goat stall...) but i could hear that 'mr clean gets the dirt in just a minute' as clear as a bell.
so glad you vacuumed....you will now need to do that about every five minutes to keep up the standard! LOL


----------



## alyssa_romine

Creaturesall, I use 2" x 4" squares for my hay feeder. They waste less hay but can still eat. I have used it for months now and haven't had a problem with them.


----------



## creaturesall

Thanks Alyssa. That's about what I now have. I also extended their living quarters today, just to give them a little more room to find their own space. Hopefully the bossy one won't be so bossy. It's gonna get cold :blue: tonite so I have locked the girlz in.

Thank you to everyone for your help and advice. It is appreciated.


----------



## alyssa_romine

You're welcome. I try to help where I can.


----------



## creaturesall

I see that he temperature here has dropped to minus 12F tonight. I do hope all you nice folks who recommended against heating my Shedgra-la were right. This is tooo :shocked: cold, even for December!


----------



## enjoytheride

Their digestion keeps them warm- lots of food -lots of heat. Although you have to remember I'm a California girl.


----------



## goat fever

Creaturesall, sounds and looks like you are doing everything right. Very nice barn for you girls. You are quite the handyman. Your goats are lucky to have you as an owner. The only thing I noticed was your mineral block was outside with no protection from the elements. You might want to put it somewhere where the rain, sleet and snow won't affect it.


----------



## creaturesall

goat fever said:


> Your goats are lucky to have you as an owner.


lol.. I tend to think of myself as more hired hand than owner. The girlz weathered the night just fine, as all of you had said they would. They even ventured out this morning. Only for a short while though, and then they actually ran back inside. I'm not expecting them to stick their noses out for any great amount of time today. Mercury has dropped to -15. I'm preparing the latest issue of *creaturesall* for mailing to subscribers today (Stacey, look for yours in the mail sometime in the next several days) and can't think of a single reason to venture out.


----------



## cute kids

it's 'hot' here @ 20+, but mine won't go out 'cause there is 5 " of something white everywhwew! not fair, ezra, my pygora, seems unfazed. he is always brave.


----------



## enjoytheride

Dang that's cold- although I was born in California and live there now, I spent time in Michigan where it would get to 10 below- that's painfully cold. Everything was so much harder at those temps- driving, chores, etc. Always said it was too cold if you smiled as you passed someone on the street and your teeth froze before you were done. 
I think I will admire you from a distance.


----------



## creaturesall

*re: Christmas is comin'*

OK.... so here's the plan. Because I am the publisher, I like to share *creaturesall* magazine with as many folks as would like to have it. So what I am offering is to send a free issue to any Goat Spot member who would like one. All I need is for you to PM me your mailing address and I'll package one up and send 'er off. And not to worry, I will not keep those addresses on file but will delete them immediately after I've sent your issue off, so no one need worry about their info goin' astray.










*creaturesall* is not an animal rights nor animal welfare magazine. It is merely a a magazine about animals, written exclusively by our readers, motivated only by their desire to share all things fur, feathers, fins, skins, and scales.
:happyHolidays::happyHolidays:


----------



## creaturesall

I ask you all to bear with me please. I'm pretty new to this goat thing so I tend to be a little paranoid. How exactly can one tell moldy hay from the good stuff? When I purchased the hay I have, I quizzed the grower re: mold issues and was assured the hay was A-100. That said, I'm not sure what I would look for in the way of determining if mold is present. Both the grower and I store the hay indoors. Is that any kind of guarantee? Moldy bread, I can recognize. Moldy hay.. not so much.


----------



## Muddy Creek Farm

You can smell moldy hay. I 'sniff' each new bale/flake before I give it to the goats (call me paranoid(sp?) I am extremely careful about mold. Also if your hay is really dusty when you pull the flakes apart, that is a type of mold. 

Mold is quite easy to identify, so you don't need to worry too much. Just check by the 'sniff' test =P

Hope that helps!


----------



## creaturesall

Muddy Creek Farm said:


> Just check by the 'sniff' test. Hope that helps!


It does... THANKS!! This is similar to the test I use when choosing my wardrobe every morning :sorry: (_hard to believe I'm married, isn't it?_)


----------



## enjoytheride

Be wary of a bale that is heavier than normal or a spot that wants to stick together more than normal- those are signs that it was baled wet and mold is likely. Also look for white-ish fuzz in the hay or clouds of dust that come up when you seperate the flakes.
I was blessed (more or less) with allergies to mold- one sniff and I know instantly if it's moldy or not even if it looks bad or good.
Took me years to get it though my head that one iffy flake or bale is cheaper to throw out than one vet call. When in doubt- throw it out!


----------



## creaturesall

I have a question about feed in general. I am so new to this I'm not sure what is the smart thing to do. I purchased my 3 'fainters' from a breeder some distance away last October. When I emailed her re: feeding preferences, this was her reply:

_"This breed of goat is a hardy breed. I know of many folks in Canada and the states who feed/do different things. All breeders are different and have different ways of doing things. Around here â€" we only feed hay in the winter â€" pasture when available â€" cobalt salt is available all year round as well as the Coop Selenium/Salt I gave you the label for. We donâ€™t feed any extraâ€™s here. But â€" you will find others do â€" just a preference here for us as we try to raise them to be as hardy as they can be, like myotonics should be."_

Since getting the 3 ladies, I gave them free access to pasture when it was still available, and now have them on a 50/50 Alfalfa/Brome mix exclusively. As these three are pets only, I'd appreciate any feedback concerning this breeders recommendations outlined above.


----------



## enjoytheride

I feed alfalfa hay (becasue both of my girls are preggo hopefully) and a litlle bit of alfalfa pellets mixed with whole oats - the reason for the whole oats is that it allows me to mix in their mineral mix and know they are getting the minerals they need. When it was loose they mostly did not take any.
So I think her feeding is great- the only thing I might add is access to browse if it is available.
The colbalt issue is one I don't know anything about- but of course different places need different mineral supplement.
The reason for the whole oats/mineral thing is that I buy a mineral mix from the vet that was formulated for our area and has made a great difference in the horses health. It is heavy in selenium.


----------



## creaturesall

One of my 3 ladies (1.75 yrs old) woke this morning and isn't eating. That is very unusual for her as she is normally the most aggressive eater of the 3. Secondly, I see she is coughing a little, so much so she is spitting her cud out a bit. Third, maybe it's paranoia, but I seem to detect a small amount of shivering . Also, I can visibly see her stomach(s) rumbling, through her hide. It was very cold here last nite and remains so this morning (-5 F). The other 2 seem their normal selves. Any suggestions what my next move should be?


----------



## StaceyRosado

bob I responded to your pm but I will add her to take her temp and the temp of the others as well (to give you a reference and to keep track if they do spike a fever or get to chilled)

normal range is 101-104 but because of the extreme cold anything above at least 103 would be a fever for her especialy if the others are in the range of 101-102


----------



## creaturesall

*Re: re: Christmas is comin'*

BUMP
OK.... so here's the plan. Because I am the publisher, I like to share *creaturesall* magazine with as many folks as would like to have it. So what I am offering is to send a free issue to any Goat Spot member who would like one. All I need is for you to PM me your mailing address and I'll package one up and send 'er off. And not to worry, I will not keep those addresses on file but will delete them immediately after I've sent your issue off, so no one need worry about their info goin' astray.










*creaturesall* is not an animal rights nor animal welfare magazine. It is merely a a magazine about animals, written exclusively by our readers, motivated only by their desire to share all things fur, feathers, fins, skins, and scales.


----------



## StaceyRosado

Bob why not start a new thread on this - some people will not think to check this thread for such a great offer. 

put it in the goat frenzy or the chatter box


----------



## creaturesall

StaceyRoop said:


> Bob why not start a new thread on this


Consider it done, Stacey. I'll start one in Chatter Box :thumb: Txs!


----------

