# i have to get this strait!!!



## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Urinary calculi 
so i have always been told that giving alot of alfalfa to a buck will cause UC... is this true? what causes UC? 
And can does get UC? i have NEVER delt with UC but now i have a buck and if he gets UC, ill need to know how to treat it...

Zinc deficiancy
What are symptoms of zinc deficiancy? 
how do you treat zinc deficiancy in goats?
ive been told to give them human zinc pills, but make sure not to overdose, but how do you know if you're giving too much?

Selenium deficiancy
can i give selenium/ vitamin e gel to preggos.
why does Cricket love the selenium gel SO MUCH?!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Most cases of UC are actually caused by too much phosphorus. Ultimately though what causes UC is not a correct calcium to phosphorus ratio. You want 2:1 calh. Wethers who were handed too early before things have stretched and grown are also more prone to UC. Does can get it as well but because their tube (yeah I’m awesome with names of body parts lol) are larger it usually doesn’t cause a issue but very much could so you would still want to try and have that same correct ratio.
Zinc- wait for Mariarose she is awesome when it comes to zinc. Just to give you something to read till she gets here 
Effects of an Excess of Zinc:
Interferes with utilization of copper and iron and may actually induce copper deficient anemia.
Effects of a Deficiency of Zinc:
Poor reproduction, reduced conception and reduced immune response in all species.
Poor feed efficiency and poor growth.
Lesions of the skin, poor hair and feather development; rough and thickened skin (parakeratosis), bald spots.
Legs tender, easily injured, raw, bleeding, and weak.
There is also a decreased ability to make antibodies and resist diseases due to depressed protein synthesis
Selenium. Yes you can give to pregos and is actually good to give to them! Trust me you don’t want to have selenium deficiency going on at kidding time, it’s very heart breaking. A lot of people’s goats absolutely love the gel. One guys dog loved it too and ate a whole tube! They probably just think it tastes good.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Following


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Nigerian dwarf goat We can, and will, and Jessica has, given generalities, but we can't get too specific until we know more about what your goats are already getting, feed and mineral wise. Because, you see, nutrition is complicated and minerals work with and against each other, according to bioavailability and ratios.

Congrats on getting a buck, they are awesome. Consider getting another one so your guy won't be alone when he isn't breeding.

Ammonium Chloride (AC) is a preventative and treatment for Urinary Calculi (UC) Some mineral mixes have AC in them, but if yours doesn't, it is an easy fix. Mix 1 1/2 lbs of this product








found here (amongst many places)
https://smile.amazon.com/AniMed-99-...8706&sr=8-1&keywords=animed+ammonium+chloride
with 25 lbs of your favourite mineral mix and keep that mineral mix available 24-7. That's the prevention dose. You still may have to deal with UC but you have a whole pound of AC left.

Alfalfa is very good for bucks. It is highly nutritious. They need the calcium. Especially if you are feeding grain or concentrates, which are heavy toward phosphorus. You need both calcium and phosphorus, but in the right proportions. It needs to be at least 2:1 but can be even more. There is an upper limit, and I don't know what that limit is. Too much calcium will suppress zinc activity. So don't give them only alfalfa, Which you aren't going to do because that makes them ill (apart from the UC) So generality is alfalfa is good, but they need other stuff too. 2:1 total dietary intake of calcium to phosphorus at least. My favourite mineral has 1.5:1, which I'm fine with because I do give alfalfa pellets.

Here is an article that explains this in an understandable manner.
https://thriftyhomesteader.com/zinc-deficiency-goats/

Another ratio that's important is copper to zinc. The best ratio is 1:4. Most mineral mixes I've had personal contact with don't go that high and I'm starting to wonder if a lot of us, because we focus on calcium and on copper so much, are dealing with a chronic zinc deficiency. Frankly, I'm just starting to explore that, and what I might need to do about that. I've never heard of zinc pills, but unless your mineral mix is crazy low on copper, I don't see you overwhelming the copper with a human zinc pill. And if your mineral mix IS crazy low on copper, well, you have other problems even more pressing. So go ahead and give more zinc, especially if you start giving alfalfa. My favourite mineral has a 1:4 ratio.

While selenium toxicity is a thing in a few small (tiny)areas of the country, selenium is so regulated on the incredibly low level that it is hard for me to imagine your does do not need supplementation during pregnancy. A kid born deficient in selenium is a heartbreaking thing. Almost everyone has to supplement selenium, sometimes very heavily. My favourite mineral has 80 ppm selenium and I still find ways to give them more.

Another generality. In your mineral mix ingredients, a lot of oxides are NOT a good thing. The body does not use them very well. If you see a lot of oxides, then you've probably wasted your money. Fortunately, you haven't wasted that much because minerals filled with oxides are cheap. And sulfates need to be watched, too. If most of your ingredients are in a sulfate form, that is a lot of sulfur. Sulfur is an antagonist to several other minerals. Sulfates are not bad, but that should not be the only form you see.

And speaking of sulfur, a high level of sulfur can contribute to goat polio. Soybeans are high in sulfur. So if you feed a lot of soybean products, AND your chosen mineral mix is high in sulfates, then you will want to find a way to supplement thiamine. (that's vitamin B-1)

So, to sum up,
*Could you post a picture of your goats? Out of whack nutrition very often shows up with visual signs.
*Could you tell us your mineral mix, or post a picture of the label of your chosen mineral mix? There are 2 important parts to the label, the Guaranteed Analysis, and the Ingredients, Both would be helpful.
*Can you give us a short description of the rest of your feed regimen including what they browse on, what kind of hay, grain, concentrates, protein tubs, copper boluses, salt licks, etc? Believe it or not, even the kind of salt you offer affects how well your goats use minerals.

Oh, one last thing... Thank you for caring enough to ask. So many people around where I live feed a flake or 2 of "goat" hay (total c--p) and a salt block and call it good. So, Thank you.

I hope I have not been too confusing.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All, really good advice.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Wow! I learned something new! I did not know that high levels of sulfur can cause goat polio. Our water has sulfur and iron in it. I've always fought the iron and ignored the sulfur. 

Thanks!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

As I've said, and so many people don't want to hear (including me), "It's complicated."

If I said it causes Goat Polio, what I should have said is it contributes to, makes smooth the path for, is a stepping stone of, facilitates.... Goat Polio.

We know there's a more than definite link. We can't say... "If A then B"

But that link is enough for me to check all my ingredient lists all over again! That's just using the sense God gave a goose, Yes?


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

mariarose said:


> We can, and will, and Jessica has, given generalities, but we can't get too specific until we know more about what your goats are already getting


Grain: whole oats and barley. All goats get 1/2 cups whole oats, and 1/2 cup steamed barley twice daily. There isnt a specific amount of BOSS they get... they get it as a treat about 2-3 times a week.

Hay: The does get: Free choice alfalfa and coastal hay, they graze many weeds and coastal grass. Buck gets the exact same, but it takes him a while to finish his hay and alfalfa ( mostly because he doesnt waste nearly as much)

Minerals: everybody gets free choice purina wind and rain storm minerals, and i just started replamin gel plus today! And i have given the buck copper boluses on September 22 and 2 does copper on October 11. I need to give 3 other does copper boluses. I have given them all 2 doses of seleneum/vitamin E gel.

I think thats it!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Congrats on getting a buck, they are awesome. Consider getting another one so your guy won't be alone when he isn't breeding.


The buck and does share a fence line, ran along electric fence so no accidental breeding is going on, he can always see the does. He doesnt worry about being alone by him self because he has tons of toys in his pen so he doesnt get bored by himself.
when we had the old buck we had a wether with him, but the buck was so mean to him! he would butt him in the tummy so hard, seymore ended up getting stomach ulsers, then he couldnt digest then got too dehydrated, ( with me drenching him every 2 hours) and loads of antibiotics and $800+ in vetrinary care, we had to but him down because he was only getting worse. And, to top it all off, it was under 20 degrees so that wasnt helping. Since then im so scared to get another buck buddy


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

These are the best pics I could get today... Sorry. Some of them are a week or two old and I will get updated pics tomorrow.









This is baby, she seems to be standing weird, but the buck was blubbering and whispering to her, so she was listening!















Here's the buck! He got a copper bolus on sept 22. He needed it.









Here's cheerio!










Here's poptart! This one and the pic above are old and I will get updated ones.















Here's cricket! She's my favorite, but all her pics are a blur. I'll get better ones tomorrow.

All of deltas pics are horrible. I will get a good one tomorrow along with crickets poptarts and Cheerios!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

OK. I was just reading the thread zinc to copper ratio and @mariarose mentioned that carrgill right now onyx is a good mineral. Is it better than Purina W & R? should i switch? Will it give me better results?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I think it is better, but many people here prefer the Purina. Purina is certainly easier to find.

If you decide to try it, you can always go back, or even switch back and forth. @goathiker says that it can benefit goats to cycle through different minerals from time to time.

You take nice pictures and no problems jumped out at me immediately. You feed well, also.

I'll take a closer look later.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

mariarose said:


> You take nice pictures


Thanks!


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

Wow this is a good thread!! Is there a way to save just this thread somewhere so I don’t forget it’s here, Or have to search for it in the future? Like a bookmark? 
I’ve never heard of the cargill right now onyx I’ll have to look that up. 
I’m going back to the beginning and reading this all again. Ty everyone!


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

@Nigerian dwarf goat 
You do take good pictures they are all so sweet and have the cutest names. I love Cheerios color she looks like velvet. Does she get darker with her winter coat?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

elvis&oliver said:


> Wow this is a good thread!! Is there a way to save just this thread somewhere so I don't forget it's here, Or have to search for it in the future? Like a bookmark?
> I've never heard of the cargill right now onyx I'll have to look that up.
> I'm going back to the beginning and reading this all again. Ty everyone!


If your on a computer or you can just get on a computer and save the page to your favorites. Or if you use the actual internet not the app on your phone copy and text it to your phone. I have so many things I have texted to myself it's probably pathetic


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

elvis&oliver said:


> I've never heard of the cargill right now onyx I'll have to look that up.


Because I don't allow random drugs on my farm, When I get Cargill's Right Now minerals, I only get the Onyx. The others have an antibiotic in the ingredients. If that does not bother you, then you might like to follow the colors throughout the year, That's what they are meant for, to respond to changing pasture conditions. But I highly support not giving antibiotics before they are actually needed.

Here is a dealer locator. It is not complete, so ask around to all your feed stores and see who can get it
https://www.cargill.com/animal-nutrition/species/beef/products/right-now/retail-locator
If you click on North East, you'll get this pdf.
https://www.cargill.com/doc/1432082143392/rnm-northeast.pdf
Pennsylvania starts on page 2 of the pdf.
But if you are content with what you are giving, there is no reason to switch, "Just Because"
@Jessica84 suggests putting new offerings out separately while still offering the new. I see some wisdom to that, especially with your goats being fiber animals. I can see how you would need a higher level of zinc than the Onyx would supply. I'm going to a town this afternoon that I can look at a bag of the Purina Wind and Rain, Storm to check the zinc level. I might actually just steal a label so I have it with me to refer too. But for Fiber goats, that may be the better one between the 2. I'll get back with you, tonight. OK?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Nigerian dwarf goat said:


> free choice purina wind and rain storm minerals,


Do you still have the current tag for this? What is the ratio of copper to zinc?

If you don't have the tag, I'm going to the town today where I can look at it, and I'm going anyway, so no problem.

I have to say, off the top of my head, the only thing I can think of for your excellent care regimen is to get a container of Ammonium Chloride. There are minerals with lots higher levels of copper that might help, but you are also taking care of that with the Replamin


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

@mariarose that would be great. I looked up the onyx last night but I'm also unaware of what I'm really looking at. It always sounds okay to me which is why I'm saving this thread so I can refer back to it. I'm getting the Purina wind and rain today hopefully. With taking my daughter a total of 3 hour drive for treatments every day and taking care of her littles until her husband gets home I've been too busy. But today I'm headed in the direction of a different feed store that I know will order them if they don't already have them. I also need to look at replemin plus? I see that on here but don't really know much about it. I know that is a whole different thread and I can search it. This is a fantastic thread though I'm glad it's here. I wouldn't do the antibiotics either until they're needed. So far the boys seem to be very healthy.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

elvis&oliver said:


> I also need to look at replemin plus?


Take a deep breath. You are fine.

You provide dry draftfree shelter, check.
You provide clean water, check.
You provide excellent hay, check.
You are picking up quality minerals, check.

Only move forward from here if you see a problem developing. There are things you need to have on hand in case of an emergency, yes. But you are already supplying their main needs. Relax. Enjoy the little ones and support your daughter and let your fuzzies support you. (after you pick up the quality minerals, of course.)


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

Will do! ) great advice.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

mariarose said:


> Take a deep breath.





elvis&oliver said:


> great advice.


Yup, I'm a HUGE fan of breathing. I do it daily.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

elvis&oliver said:


> Does she get darker with her winter coat?


I havent noticed her coat getting darker. But it is probly cause i see them all the time


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

mariarose said:


> I'm going to a town this afternoon that I can look at a bag of the Purina Wind and Rain, Storm to check the zinc level. I might actually just steal a label so I have it with me to refer too. But for Fiber goats, that may be the better one between the 2. I'll get back with you, tonight. OK?


I bought a bag, and the label says that it has a 3:1 zinc copper ratio. So looking for ways to supplement zinc won't hurt, but this is not an emergency.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

mariarose said:


> So looking for ways to supplement zinc won't hurt


What do i supplement it with? Does the replamin take care of it?it has 6050 ppm in it


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Off the top of my head, I'd say no, because of how much copper it has in it. If you add the amount of zinc to your mineral total, you also have to add the amount of copper to your mineral total? I haven't completely sorted this out for myself yet. Just remember, this isn't an emergency, just something we need to start looking at.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

ok one more question:

Parasite Resistance
ok, so i stopped deworming on a squedule in about early may. Does parasite resistance go away within time?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

No, the resistance that parasites have developed remains. The best you can do is prevent the development of further resistance. But that does not depend only on you. It also depends on your neighbors, and how free and easy they are with parasiticides and antibiotics. That is why you can not out poison them. Management practices and breeding tolerance into your herd are the only things that can succeed here. That is the plain honest truth, from me to you. Breeding for parasite tolerance is just as important for the future of the breed/species as breeding for production, or for conformation, or any other attribute.

This is dead serious.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Not you, personally and only, @Nigerian dwarf goat. I mean everyone involved in keeping goats. This is ultra, uber, serious.

I was traumatized as a 5 year old because I completely believed Smokey the Bear when he came into my living room and told me that only *I* could prevent forest fires. I did not know how I was starting them, so I did not know how to stop them.

I don't mean to traumatize you like he did me. Just to impress upon you how serious this is.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

. i started deworming on a squedule in about March so if any resistance was built (there probably was) it couldnt've been very much. And then stopped in early-ish may. I have only had one doe that had gotten wormy but she is no longer at my farm...

Thanks so much!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Worming 1 to 2 x a year, I don't think resistance is as bad.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

Goatzrule said:


> Following


 me too! I just love this place!!!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> Worming 1 to 2 x a year, I don't think resistance is as bad.[/QUOTE
> 
> Thanks!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

No problem.


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