# Feeling so lost



## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

This kidding season has been awful. I’m so confused on how to fix this. This is our 3rd kidding season with the goat farm we took over. Since November we’ve had 12 stillborn kids or late miscarriages and we’ve lost 20 kids. Partly the does are sucking, man. So many took none or just one baby, or took them for a few days then didn’t? Some Moms seemed weak. It’s just been non stop death. We’ve lost 4 moms as well. We KNOW we have a selenium and cooper deficiency. We’re fighting it now. And no goats out here have been vaccinated, that’s changing too. But what more can we do to prevent it?
We’re in West Texas. This week has been horribly cold, but when the babies were born the past month the temps averaged 40-65F. Our goal is to control breeding next go for non winter time births.

We have 22 live babies at the moment. 

I feel defeated


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Unfortunately livestock is not so easy to care for. We need to start with exactly what you feed them, any supplements you give. What did they get prior to you purchasing them?


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Have you been checking FAMACHA or getting fecals done?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

What exactly are you doing to fight the selenium and copper deficiencies?


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Oh man, busy day! I’ll answer the questions tomorrow when I get specific names & brand Info from my husband!
At the moment I know we’ve got loose minerals out, with copper & selenium, 24/7. Where as prior, we had mineral blocks, and were unaware of looking for cooper. We do have BoSe on hand as well. There is some other stuff, but again I’ll have to talk with my husband. 

We took over my grandpas farm. He had only had it 9 years prior. He didn’t do anything special, but never had the loss we’ve had this year. Never.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

And no I don’t know what FAMCHA is.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

FAMACHA test is where you look at the inside of the goat's lower eyelid & compare the color to a special chart. It is a way to check for anemia, which is usually caused by certain kinds of parasites. You can see what the charts look like online. Their eyelid should look pretty pink.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Oh I need to get that printed off. We do check eyelids to see if they’re grey or white and drench as needed if so.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Sometimes loose minerals aren't enough to prevent copper deficiency. If you post pictures of your goats the moderators might be able to tell you a lot about what has gone wrong. They are pretty amazing.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

I can definitely do that tomorrow!  thank you


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

For great resources on all sorts of parasite related issues, check out the American Consortium for Small Ruminant Parasite Control, https://www.wormx.info/. Under the "training" tab, far right, is an option for "On-line Certification". It's videos available for free to stream at your convenience. Probably bookmark that one until things slow down though!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I highly recommend contacting a livestock vet or the nearest agricultural university and finding out where to bring the next miscarried fetus for a necropsy. You need to find out if Chlamydia or Toxoplasmosis are part of the problem and the necropsy will tell you. They may also identify extreme mineral deficiencies. 

Did you bring in a new breeding buck in the last year?

Are there cats giving birth to kittens in your goat or hay storage barns?

Personally, in a situation like this where you are losing a ton of goats and money with dead kids. I would immediately begin antibiotics on every pregnant doe in the herd.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Thank you all so much! I’m going to get my husband to make an account here and chime in with answers!


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

Okay, so I'm Amcculler14's husband. We are basically at a loss. We just took over the farm and it never had any organization to it. But we also doubled the amount of does we have in the past year. There also wasn't a problem with loosing as many as we have lost this year so far. The mom's have been extra crappy this year. They just won't take their babies and if they do it's either a mom that had a single or they just took one of a double or triple. This year so far when we have had triplets born, the last one to come out have been dead or almost dead. We have had miscarriages and a few stillbirth. We haven't encounter stillbirth or miscarriages like we have this year. We have also had a lot of babies live for 5 days to 2 weeks and we will just find them the next day in the barn or feild laid out, hard as a rock and partially alive. Some with a full stomach and some who have had a empty stomachs. We have been told by several local goat ranchers that it looks like a mineral difficiency and that we need to vaccinate the goats(we never knew there was a vaccine for them until recently) but we have put out loose minerals 24/7 and have been feeding goat specific feed from red chain that has copper in it too. We are just at a loss. We have recently found a vet who would give us BoSe. And we have maxi B and vitamin a, d and e injections. We also have penicillin, necromiacin and we use safeguard, cydectin and corrid as drenched.


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

We have had new bucks come in the herd to breed but they are up to date on everything and vaccinated. It has happened like this each breeding season but not at this rate. It has gotten worse. Last year was bad, but thus year was horrible. We do have a TON of barn cats and god knows where they are giving birth. We also have a TON of deer and about five feeders throughout our property.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Something has to be making the does feel poorly to reject so many kids. Also some folks swear they sense a lost cause (weak kid) and reject it by that. Either way - poor mothering simply can't be to blame here. 

Personally, I would start every pregnant doe on the property on a 7 day course of Penicillin ASAP and inject every single goat on the property with Bo-Se.

Just because the bucks were "healthy and up to date and vaccinated" when purchased does not mean they could not be carrying chlamydia and spread it around the herd, or contract it from a new doe and spread it around the herd. 

Doesn't sound like deer on the property are the issue at this point. 

What state do you live in? You need to get those barn cats trapped in have-a-heart traps and get them spayed and neutered. There are a ton of programs in every state to help with that. Kitten feces near goat feed = toxoplasmosis. 

It sounds like there must be multiple issues happening, extreme selenium deficiency would be up near the top of my guesses but there has to be more than one. 

Can you locate a place to have a necropsy done? 

How long ago did you begin offering loose minerals?


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

We started offering loose minerals about 5 or 6 months ago. Will a local vet be able to do a necropsy? We live in Texas. I agree, I don't think it's bad mothering, because some of does who are great mom's rejected their babies this year. And the BoSe will help if it's a selenium difficiency? Sorry trying to take everything in.


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Yes, BoSe should help with the selenium defiency, if that's indeed one of the problems. 
I'm so sorry that you are going through this!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Correct - Bo-Se is a selenium and vitamin E injection. You need to give it to every goat several times a year, but most importantly a couple months before kidding. In your case, I would also begin giving 1/4cc of Bo-Se to each kid born in the next month or two in the first 24 hours.


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## NigerianGirl (Jan 30, 2011)

Have you tried copper bolus it helps with copper deficiency


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

Our vet will do a necropsy, but I have a baby in my kitchen that's dying. So they want me to bring her in so they can run test or do a necropsy if she dies before we get her therw


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

We’re taking a baby goat that died today to vet for necropsy right now


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

I'm sorry that you lost another one.  Hopefully the vet will have definite answers.


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## NigerianGirl (Jan 30, 2011)

I just watched a video on YouTube and it said that he was dealing with a lot of early births stillborn birth and he had a vitamin B or thiamine issue


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I can't watch that video right now as I'm at work but thiamine deficiency is really not typically associated with these types of issues. There are so many other possibilities that come first.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Thank you all, they took the one who died & the one that’s barely hanging on. Praying these babies bring us answers


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry, hope you find the answers you seek.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Hopefully You'll be able to get answers


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## Sparklesms (Sep 6, 2017)

https://thriftyhomesteader.com/vitamin-e-goats/

This is an article I just read yesterday that was very interesting concerning Selenium and Vitamin E. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but it made a lot of sense to me.
It speaks of selenium deficiency and Vitamin E. deficiency having very similar symptoms, and that most selenium supplements don't have adequate levels of Vitamin E., so extra supplementing of Vitamin E. is can be very important when dealing with deficiency.
So sorry you're going through this, lots of hugs to you! :hug:


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## Noma’s Kids (Dec 30, 2017)

Amcculler14 said:


> We're taking a baby goat that died today to vet for necropsy right now


I'm so very sorry for what y'all are going through. So very sad for all these deaths. Very kind so many members have been trying to help. Hope the vet will be able to help.


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## NigerianGirl (Jan 30, 2011)

SalteyLove said:


> I can't watch that video right now as I'm at work but thiamine deficiency is really not typically associated with these types of issues. There are so many other possibilities that come first.


IDK honestly I'm just watching through videos on YouTube and his symptoms sounded similar so I thought I'd mention it...never know what can help


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I have a few questions/comments that may help...

What is your feed program, especially for pregnant does? Hay? Alfalfa? Grain? Sweetfeed? How much of what? If they don't have proper nutrition, kids won't grow well, and does won't feel well. This means kids may be born weak, and moms won't have the energy or interest to take care of them.

What mineral are you feeding them? Some are better than others. Are they eating it? Are you refreshing it or replacing it often? My girls don't like "old" (been out for more than 3-4 days) mineral. BoSe is good, but, ask your vet they're opinion of MultiMin. It has more minerals in it, and if your goats are severally deficient in more than just selenium, it can be a huge help.

I think I mentioned it in one of your previous posts, but here it is again...I really think a necropsy of an adult in your herd may help figure our your issues. Be sure to stress that you want a mineral panel and abortive disease panel done.

_"Another idea to maybe help you narrow down if it is a mineral deficiency, and what mineral it might be...Do you have a wether, or doe that you could butcher for necropsy? Or at least a liver mineral test. (http://waddl.vetmed.wsu.edu/search-tests) I am hoping to run one of these every year or two on the wethers we butcher, just to get an idea of where we are sitting mineral wise.

Last thought for now, what is your herd's CAE status? CAE can cause hard, conjested udders and/or mastitis. I don't see if you have checked moms for milk availability or udder hardness/softness, but if they are having udder issues, it may be the cause."_

Abortion diseases...some of them will cause late term abortions or kids to be born weak and/or dead. If you have a vet willing to work with you, they should be able to help you find and dose an appropriate antibiotic. I will scrounge around and see if I can find a PDF of the abortion diseases that I think is pretty useful.

I am so sorry you are dealing with this. We have had losses over they few years, but never to this extent. It is so hard, especially when you don't know how to fix it, or can't even find things to fix. I hope you can find some answers.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

PippasCubby said:


> I have a few questions/comments that may help...
> 
> What is your feed program, especially for pregnant does? Hay? Alfalfa? Grain? Sweetfeed? How much of what? If they don't have proper nutrition, kids won't grow well, and does won't feel well. This means kids may be born weak, and moms won't have the energy or interest to take care of them.
> 
> ...


 I'm going to have my husband answer here again, but there is no real order to what we give them, I think primarily because with 100 acres, sweet feed & protein and hay put out free choice, they just always foraged and we're good. With my grandpa at least. But with the recent growth in here size, things got crazy. We took over and moved out to the country to help him. He's 84. But he's only had goats 9 years. And usually 10-15 head as a hobby. So things have changed and even he is clueless. Things were going steady until 2016, when all hell broke loose. I think the necropsy of an adult would be great

The babies were in perfect health. So he believes it's deficiencies in the adults or a bacterial infection in the adults. We're starting with blocking them from pasture. Keeping them in the front 15 acres. Coastal hay, loose minerals, sweet feed and medicated protein feed out in constant rotation. BoSe to all remaining pregnant does. CDT to everyone. (That's new for us) and an antibiotic that I have written down in the car, a long word, to get into their food stat and start there. He's very concerned as well


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

This isn't the one I wanted, but it is pretty good...I will keep looking for the one I want...

http://abga.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Abortion-Causes-in-Goats.pdf


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Here it is...

http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0079/UNP-0079.pdf

And I think I'll save it in my files for future reference!


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

PippasCubby said:


> Here it is...
> 
> http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0079/UNP-0079.pdf
> 
> And I think I'll save it in my files for future reference!


Thank you so much!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ugh I am SO sorry your going threw this  I had a terrible year last year and wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy 
You might have a couple of things going on. I hope you get answers soon from the vet. They should be able to test the kids liver, they did for me when I took a kid in for a necropsy, make sure you tell them you want the selenium levels too. Dang people didn’t give me that! Everything but selenium for some reason.
The does though are they loosing their placenta after? Especially the ones rejecting kids? If they are not for sure a selenium issue and then if they don’t feel good and get infected they can turn to crap mothers.
Another issue I had when everyone was dropping kids left and right was a kid would go over to a doe that wasn’t it’s mother and bug her which ended up in her totally rejecting one or all of her kids. Or one of her kids would wonder off and they were so focused on the other they forgot they had a second one. In my books that’s still a cull factor but there was a reason behind the rejecting.
Sorry I’m gonna be all over the place here :/ are you having losses more with the new does then the ones that were already there with the still borns and aborting? You mentioned that you have had abortions in the past just not like this. Chlamydia, how that works is it infects a doe and she will usually abort or have super weak kids but after that they should be immune to the disease. So what I’m wondering here is if you had that in the main herd already and then when your numbers increased (maybe with clean does) you are noticing more of a issue ????? I believe for chlamydia the placenta has to be tested. Talk to your vet about that. When I had my issue last year I took the dead kids and the placenta in and they did test the placenta, I’m not sure if they could have tested the kids some how though.
I really really hope things get better for you guys. It is the most heartbreaking thing in the world


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I have read both pages of this thread and I don't see where anyone has recommended a fecal be done on these goats. When is the last time you've wormed these goats and what with? Can you take some random pictures of your goats and share them please.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Tenacross said:


> I have read both pages of this thread and I don't see where anyone has recommended a fecal be done on these goats. When is the last time you've wormed these goats and what with? Can you take some random pictures of your goats and share them please.


I meant to get some today but ended up so busy I forgot. I will get some first thing in the morning. They were wormed about 50 days ago. The 2 babies (both 3.5 weeks old) that were autopsied today we're clear of worms and all parasites according to his findings.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Oh and they had Corid in their only source of drinking water for 5 days last week. We dumped the other water sources for that time so they all had to drink it. It was preventative, but we used Safeguard 50 days ago. I think Cydectin for some who looked poor


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

Thanks guys, it has been horrible. We really haven't had a feeding program. We be been going by what her grandpa has been doing. But now we know that it work anymore. A necropsy of a adult goat would be great, hopefully we don't have any die now. We will definitely talk to the vet about getting tested for Chlamydia


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Amcculler14 said:


> Oh and they had Corid in their only source of drinking water for 5 days last week. We dumped the other water sources for that time so they all had to drink it. It was preventative, but we used Safeguard 50 days ago. I think Cydectin for some who looked poor


How are the Cydectin does doing now?


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

I will take pictures of some of the goats tomorrow and post them. We worked 45 to 50 days ago with safeguard and cydectin and did a 5 day corrid treatment.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Tenacross said:


> How are the Cydectin does doing now?


Honestly, at the moment, all the adults and yearlings look great. And I want to say nearly all the Kids we have alive look really great too. But, so did the one who dropped dead this morning :/ full bellies, fluffy hair, jumping and running. Adults eating, venturing into this yucky cold, no one looks sunken in or weak. Eyelids good pinky color.

We still have 8 left to kid within the month.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Tenacross said:


> I have read both pages of this thread and I don't see where anyone has recommended a fecal be done on these goats. When is the last time you've wormed these goats and what with? Can you take some random pictures of your goats and share them please.


Very good point...we may be over-analyzing this...


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

A lot of people routinely worm the day after kidding. Otherwise you can have a worm explosion. However, that wouldn't kill the babies...unless the doe quits feeding them.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

I feel this is both mineral deficiency and worms.

Kids being still born, or when born just lifeless, is a sign mineral deficiency and poor doe nutrition.

Mothers rejecting the kids (assuming they have not done this in the past, and have a proven good mother record) could be from worms. I've had two does that (before I knew what was happening) had high worm loads and flat out rejected their kids; assuming because they were giving everything to keep themselves alive.

I also don't think the weather was a concern, but could have contributed.

Were you there for the births? How old are these does and have they had kids before?

I highly recommend a fecal, plus checking their eyelids. When you get the fecal, specifically ask about barberpole worms.

What mineral are you using, if possible take picture of the tag.

Also, I recommend getting into copper bolus. You can get them from Jeffer's.

Take some pictures of the does and kids, it will help tremendously.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Lstein said:


> I feel this is both mineral deficiency and worms.
> 
> Kids being still born, or when born just lifeless, is a sign mineral deficiency and poor doe nutrition.
> 
> ...


We were here for most of the births, placenta was easily passed with everyone. I know someone mentioned that above. Does are primarily 2-3 years old. We did have about 7 older,4-7 years. And unfortunately had a few right at a year & under who accidentally got bred. Though every young one took their babies great & have had great success.

We dealt with Barber Pole worms in 2016. It was horrible. So bad. Every goat who got them died. This isn't looking like that was, no diarrhea in does and the 2 babies who were autopsied yesterday did have diarrhea, but not parasites of any kind present.

We routinely check eyelids just for pink or grey, only just learned about the Famacha chart. Got that printed off now.

The Copper bolus is a great idea and we're going to get that ASAP. I'll attach photos of the some of the goats from this morning here. Sending husband out to get mineral information now


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Mineral bag
Will take recommendations for any brand


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Unfortunately this mineral mix is so low, you are practically not giving them anything. Also is there any urea in it? I couldn't see the ingredients.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

ksalvagno said:


> Unfortunately this mineral mix is so low, you are practically not giving them anything. Also is there any urea in it? I couldn't see the ingredients.


We also had mineral blocks out for the entirety of their pregnancies. By the water. Several kinds. What kind should we be buying? I don't ever see many options in our little town for goats specific


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

No, there is no idea in it. We didn't buy this bag. Her grandfather did, but we also have no clue what to give them. So any kind of recommendations would be appreciated


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The blocks are just as bad or worse because goats don't have a rough enough tongue. What kind of loose mineral brands can you get in goat or cattle formula?


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

I’m willing to drive to big cities around if need be, just need a brand name. I’m not in town right now so I don’t have the lists of what’s available. I didn’t realize I could buy for cattle. I can go to Fort Worth and probably get anything, I just don’t know where to start or what to get


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

I can get Manna Pro goat mineral locally


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Dumor cattle
Producers pride
And Purinas cattle for sure


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Very nice healthy looking Goats really! One thing I noticed was tails off to the side. That is a sign of needing selenium. Granted this does not happen all the time, it didn’t with mine but it is a sign. I think you are dealing with lack of selenium, wait for the results of the necropsy and if it confirms make sure you get that BOSE.
I learned last year that selenium deficiency doesn’t always follow the rules on what happens. Like I mentioned I took kids in for a necropsy and they never tested selenium levels. They found nothing else wrong. I was at a loss but was pretty sure it was selenium because the loss just stopped and looking back threw my notes it was close to being about a month after the bose shots (I was late giving it) months later talking with another breeder I told her what happened and she also had the same thing and they did test selenium and that was the issue.
These were the issues I had- kids born with a heart beat but wouldn’t breath, sacks were very hard to break, also kids cords were breaking very close to their stomach, I believe their cords were breaking before the sack and they were drowning.
Things that confused me and didn’t point to selenium- all passed their placenta no issue, also no weak ankles odd ball legs (except for one quad) no weak pastures or tails off to the side. As long as I was there busting sacks and getting kids out fast were very healthy. I did have a few die well after birth but no crazy numbers. But I also was giving 1/2cc of bose after birth.
Also on the copper boluses because you also have a large number, I buy the cattle boluses and then empty capsules and fill those up. It comes out much cheaper then the goat ones.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Jessica84 said:


> Very nice healthy looking Goats really! One thing I noticed was tails off to the side. That is a sign of needing selenium. Granted this does not happen all the time, it didn't with mine but it is a sign. I think you are dealing with lack of selenium, wait for the results of the necropsy and if it confirms make sure you get that BOSE.
> I learned last year that selenium deficiency doesn't always follow the rules on what happens. Like I mentioned I took kids in for a necropsy and they never tested selenium levels. They found nothing else wrong. I was at a loss but was pretty sure it was selenium because the loss just stopped and looking back threw my notes it was close to being about a month after the bose shots (I was late giving it) months later talking with another breeder I told her what happened and she also had the same thing and they did test selenium and that was the issue.
> These were the issues I had- kids born with a heart beat but wouldn't breath, sacks were very hard to break, also kids cords were breaking very close to their stomach, I believe their cords were breaking before the sack and they were drowning.
> Things that confused me and didn't point to selenium- all passed their placenta no issue, also no weak ankles odd ball legs (except for one quad) no weak pastures or tails off to the side. As long as I was there busting sacks and getting kids out fast were very healthy. I did have a few die well after birth but no crazy numbers. But I also was giving 1/2cc of bose after birth.
> Also on the copper boluses because you also have a large number, I buy the cattle boluses and then empty capsules and fill those up. It comes out much cheaper then the goat ones.


Thank you so much! Yes! Their tails recently, within the past year or so started doing that. I had NO idea it could be a symptom of something. Our vet did prescribe BoSe, so we have it on hand now!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Sweetlix Meat Maker is a good loose mineral (that's formulated for goats)
Purina Wind and Rain (cattle mineral) is another good option. 

Manna Pro is find - better than that tag you posted - but comes in small bags not economical for large herds.

I note both selenium and copper deficiencies in your herd based on the photos. It also appears one doe has lice. But really overall they appear in good condition.

I would copper bolus and give Bo-SE or MultiMin90 injections to every goats over 4 months in the herd.

Did the vet indicate they would be able to check for Chlamydia or Toxomplasmosis for you?


Reaching further back - you indicated you used SafeGuard dewormer previously - it's important to note that the dosage of this much be 3-4 TIMES higher than that noted on the liquid bottle. In some areas, Safeguard is no longer very effective for parasites. Just for future reference if you find you have a parasite issue.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I was about to post something very similar to what Jessica and SalteyLove said, so, I will just let you know I think they are giving good advice...take that for what it is worth ;-) !

The hay quality doesn't look great, might be something to look at as well.

Oh, and add, it is unlikely kids will have much of a parasite issue at only 2-3 weeks (I think that's what you said they're age was? ignore me if I am wrong). So the fact that that the ones that were necropsied are parasite free doesn't mean your adults are...though your does don't really look like they have worms either.


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

Yeah, we use safeguard often. I was apprehensive to raise the dosage, because I didn't think you could. They didn't test for Chlamydia or difficiency in the babies we took because they said the liver was to small. 
With the hay. That is the last remains of a round bale that her grandpa got from one of his friends. 
I also noticed that this year when the dies were birthing., if it were triplets or twins. I found a few dead in the sack on the ground. And some of the babies did have super short cords.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Amcculler14 said:


> Mineral bag
> Will take recommendations for any brand


Just for comparison, this is the mineral I use for mine. Per recommendations from TGS people. Do you have any grain elevators or other cattle feed supplies near? You could show them this label and find out what they have close to it.

I checked to see if my brand was in your area and unfortunately it isn't.

I would for sure go with cattle mineral route if possible. The manna pro, while nice, is very expensive.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Amcculler14 said:


> We were here for most of the births, placenta was easily passed with everyone. I know someone mentioned that above. Does are primarily 2-3 years old. We did have about 7 older,4-7 years. And unfortunately had a few right at a year & under who accidentally got bred. Though every young one took their babies great & have had great success.


 Have the ones that are rejecting had kids previously, and were good mothers? Just out of curiosity.



Amcculler14 said:


> We dealt with Barber Pole worms in 2016. It was horrible. So bad. Every goat who got them died. This isn't looking like that was, no diarrhea in does and the 2 babies who were autopsied yesterday did have diarrhea, but not parasites of any kind present.


 I've been there too, still dealing with the aftermath of that four years later. I try to forget that year ever happened. I lost 30ish of my 2-3 month olds. It was horrible. Dieing goats everywhere, and not just little newborns but kids ready to go to market.

So after finding out what I was dealing with I: started worming accordingly, rotating pastures, bolusing, and keeping much more detailed records. By doing so (with the records) I noticed a trend, where all the goats I purchased from a certain farm (and their offspring), were much more "wormy" than the rest. So I've been also been rather strict with culling, and have just one doe left from that line. Since then my worm load is almost non-existant.

What kind of records do you keep, if I may ask. Your own written ones? Software? I personally use easykeeper, which has helped a bunch. But it is a bit pricey more than what it's worth in my opinion, but at this point I'm pretty invested in it and have 4-5 years of records in there.

One could do a free trial, just to get the feel of what kind of info to keep, and do your own too. :2c:



Amcculler14 said:


> The Copper bolus is a great idea and we're going to get that ASAP. I'll attach photos of the some of the goats from this morning here. Sending husband out to get mineral information now


 Like others said, nice looking goats really. Just a few signs of copper and selenium deficientcy.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

I just keep record by hand, I’ve been actively searching for something made specifically for lifestock record keeping (we have 4 human kids too, so I sometimes get flustered with notes)
But I’d definitely be willing to give the software a try!

And yes, some of the does who rejected kids have at least 1 year of being a great mom. So that was super shocking to us. Some were first timers though.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Kintracks is great for on the computer, but no app.
I've tried The Goat book, didn't like it.
Trying the app Livestocked now..
Looks like some great advice above. Biggest thing is getting a management plan. Get your hands on all or most of your herd and look at Famacha scores, hooves, and for external parasites like lice and mites. Treat the herd accordingly. I use a mineral made by Vitaferm. They love it. I'll get a tag for you if I can. I think it's Duraferm, and you can order it online, but I'm pretty sure there are dealers in Texas.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Cargill Right Now Onyx Mineral is another good one. Unfortunately underdosing the Safeguard will make them more resistant. Get a fecal done on your worst looking does to include coccidia and see where you are with parasites in your adult herd.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Amcculler14 said:


> And yes, some of the does who rejected kids have at least 1 year of being a great mom. So that was super shocking to us. Some were first timers though.


 That is odd, with the veterans also doing it.

I can only draw from personal experience with some of this, so apologies for the rambling.

With the three total does I've had reject kids:

#1 Looking back, this was my first sign that I had barber pole worms, but didn't know what I was dealing with. She had loose stools, the kids were very tiny, early, and she just flat our refused them. She had a healthy set of twins the previous year and was a wonderful mother.

Actually now that I think of it, all three of the goats I'm mentioning here came from or were descended from that place.

#2 Was a healthy first timer and was her first time, spent many hours in her pen with her but she just would not take them. Was scared of them even. She was also descended from the farm where the goats I bought had low worm resistance.

#3 Was purchased as a kid from there. A fantastic and fierce mother (would bite you if you came by her babies) had a healthy set of twins, and the following year triplets. After the triplets, I could not keep weight on her. She remained skinny throughout the winter, just would not shake the worms and was getting shots to help with the anemia. She had twins, very small. One didn't make it and the 2nd one we got to eat a couple times from a bottle (she rejected it) but eventually we just couldn't get her to drink anymore.

She ended up dieing about a month after that.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

loggyacreslivestock said:


> I've tried The Goat book, didn't like it.


Same, wasn't a fan.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

So did you get the results back form the vet? Did I miss that?
With the bose you have don’t forget to give the kids already born a shot. If selenium is the issue (I think it is) they could end up getting white muscle, so don’t forget about them.
I like the wind and rain minerals, if you have a tractor supply by you check and see if they have it or if not as if you can order it. Mine is dumb and they told me I have to order a whole pallet but that doesn’t seem to be the case for most people and their tractor supply. 
Also what I did this year was give the bose on time! But also had loose selenium salt out for them. You can get the block instead but I like the loose because I can just put a little out at a time and not have dirty feet all over it lol no clue how that’s gonna pan out since I haven’t started kidding yet but it sure didn’t kill anyone


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

I seriously appreciate you guys so very much! This is a lot of fantastic information to take in and get to work on detailed record keeping! We will start this week


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I agree that your goats look pretty good. If you had just posted those pictures without the story, I doubt many would have ever thought your herd was having such trouble. Get rid of those minerals. They have very little selenium or copper. They have a huge amount of magnesium compared to most goat mineral. I don't know of any problems with excess magnesium, but you mineral has 10x the mag as mine. What product line does your feed store feature? Your feed store should be able to order what you need for you.

My first year kidding I had some very odd problems with does not pushing out the second and third kid. Weak kids. Retained placentas. Dystocia. I lost about half the kids before I started going in after the second and third kids. For me it was selenium and balancing my feed better. As well as not feeding early pregnant does to fatness. 

I would get rid of the cats. Keep looking for reasons. If there are any experienced goat herders near you, have them look at your herd. Also ask them if there are any good goat vets they could recommend. If you have the desire, you will figure it out. It will get easier. I promise you.


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## Melinda29 (Apr 19, 2016)

Amcculler14 said:


> I can get Manna Pro goat mineral locally


Manna Pro is fine, definitely better than what you've got now. But it is expensive. Buy a bag to use for now and work on finding a cheaper goat mineral after that.

Did I read correctly that you are feeding goat feed and sweet feed free choice? As in, it's available in their pen at all times? These are high grain feeds, which to a goat is like candy. They will fill up on it and not get enough roughage from hay and pasture. It can also cause bloat, which is deadly very quickly. You can have a perfectly healthy goat bouncing around and if they suddenly notice the grain and eat as much as they want, they can be dead within hours.

Feed high quality hay, fresh water, and loose minerals free choice. The kind of goats you have will dictate whether they need grain beyond that, and how much. Heavy milkers will need some, as well as some bucks during rut. Some breeders give grain to growing kids, depending on their goals. But it has to be doled out on an individual basis to meet their specific needs.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Was able to get this locally today, putting out ASAP. Was the ONLY minerals Tractor Supply had outside of Manna Pros tiny bag


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Are the Does being affected any?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Amcculler14 said:


> Was able to get this locally today, putting out ASAP. Was the ONLY minerals Tractor Supply had outside of Manna Pros tiny bag


That's what I use as a back up since what I'm using now is something I have to order. It's really not that far off of wind and rain but still not as good. I use that over the goat one not just because of price but because my Goats refuse to eat that goat one!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh wow I went back and looked at what you had and this will be a HUGE step up! For ones following this is the tag on what they just got









Did you happen to talk to them about getting wind and rain?


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

They were short staffed today and it was hectic in there, but we saw this and grabbed it. We will ask about it next time we go by there.


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

goat girls said:


> Are the Does being affected any?


 Yes, there are a handful of does who after they had their babies that just looked awful. And most of them didn't take their babies. And we also lost three nannies after they gave birth.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Do you guys think it’s maybe White Muscle Disease knocking these kids out? We just got home to our newest bottle baby laid out. He just died. But 2 hours ago he was fine. His mom took care of him for 5 days, then wouldn’t take him. Refused. We tried everything. So we took him in and he’s been a bottle baby for 3 days and now he’s dead.


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Uhg...so sorry. 

Have you given anyone BoSe? and how much to who?

What are you using to bottle feed? If replacer, what kind? How much?


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

PippasCubby said:


> Uhg...so sorry.
> 
> Have you given anyone BoSe? and how much to who?
> 
> What are you using to bottle feed? If replacer, what kind? How much?


Some does, 2ML, his mom had BoSe 4 days before birth I think. We're using Save-a-Kid replacer, as it was the colostrum brand we used for some bottle babies at the start (not him though, he nursed his mom) he was getting 1 cup 4x a day

No bloat
Just laid out and died 
Wasn't cold either. Regular temp


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

Amcculler14 said:


> Some does, 2ML, his mom had BoSe 4 days before birth I think. We're using Save-a-Kid replacer, as it was the colostrum brand we used for some bottle babies at the start (not him though, he nursed his mom) he was getting 1 cup 4x a day
> 
> No bloat
> Just laid out and died
> Wasn't cold either. Regular temp


From what I understand, it doesn't sound like "classic" WMD, but as Jessica has said earlier, selenium deficienies can manifest in many different ways. I would try to supplement the kids with BoSe to make sure the base is covered.

For adults, BoSe is often given 1cc/40lbs. So I would say you've underdosed. At only 4 days prior to kidding, the kids would not have gotten the full benefit of it either.

A lot of people give 0.5 cc to newborn Boer kids as well.

How big was the kid? It looks like you are feeding an appropriate amount, and I think that is one of the better replacers, though. I like to use the estimate of feeding 20% of the kids body weight over the course of 24 hrs.

Again, so sorry this is happening to your herd.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That replacer might be your problem with the one that just died. Sorry you lost him.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, milk replacer can be bad.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Save a kid colostrum replacer or milk replacer? I'm confused by your post amculler14


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## D.J. McCuller (Jan 2, 2018)

The one that died was on its mom for five days, then the mother stopped taking it and was roughing it around. It was save a kid milk replacer. Specifically for goats


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

It could be something in the ground out there.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

loggyacreslivestock said:


> Save a kid colostrum replacer or milk replacer? I'm confused by your post amculler14


We used the Sav-A-Kid colostrum replacer for another bottle baby whose mom never took her, so we just bought the Sav-A-Kid milk replacer to follow. To stay with the same product line 
The baby who died was with his mom for 5 days, then she refused to take him anymore 
So for 3 days he was on the milk replacer before he died


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

Could y’all further explain why the replacer May have killed him? If it matters, he went down, acted exactly like and died just like all the other kids over the past month. Bottle or not.


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## Amcculler14 (Dec 6, 2017)

PippasCubby said:


> From what I understand, it doesn't sound like "classic" WMD, but as Jessica has said earlier, selenium deficienies can manifest in many different ways. I would try to supplement the kids with BoSe to make sure the base is covered.
> 
> For adults, BoSe is often given 1cc/40lbs. So I would say you've underdosed. At only 4 days prior to kidding, the kids would not have gotten the full benefit of it either.
> 
> ...


I don't currently have a way to weigh them, what would be a good method or scale? 
He was actually a little big. Jumping around, eating good, running, and already the size of our three week old bottle babies


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## PippasCubby (May 13, 2015)

I have never used these myself, but here are some charts that can give you an idea of the weight of your goat(s).

For the kid, we use a digital hanging fish scale and hang the kid in a cloth bag. Or you can stand on a scale with the kid, then stand on it without the kid. Subtract your weight from the weight of you and the kid.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/know-...er_goat_how-to-calculate-sheep-or-goat-weight

http://www.infovets.com/books/smrm/c/c098.htm

https://fiascofarm.com/goats/weight-chart.htm



Amcculler14 said:


> Could y'all further explain why the replacer May have killed him? If it matters, he went down, acted exactly like and died just like all the other kids over the past month. Bottle or not.


Some kid just don't process the replacer's ingredients very well. A milk or whey based replacer is easier for kids to digest than a soy based one. Sometimes it can be mixed wrong which can mess with the kids' stomach too. I like to weigh out the powder and water and I haven't had a problem myself with milk replacer.


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

We use a digital luggage scale; investment around $10. Tare the scale to a bucket or sling. It's made giving meds to babies much less guess work. Features worth looking for: backlight on screen, & quick read.


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