# Need some advice PIC added



## pennyspasture (Dec 22, 2011)

Sorry in advance for the length of this. I am pretty new to goats and right now have 3 does and 5 kids. One of the does is being culled as soon as the baby is weaned. The two does I am keeping are nubians, but I plan to continue crossing them with a meat breed buck like I did this year. One doe gave me two does who look to be really solid and are very healthy with normal 1 x 1 teats. The second doe gave me a buck and a doe; her babies are very impressive as far as thickness and seem to have more of the boer goat characteristics; buck has normal 1 x 1 teats and the girl has one fish teat and the other side is like two really close together. My goal is to try raising commercial type meat goats for meat for ourselves and selling any extras, but I want a couple goats for milk; this is why we have started with the nubians. So my questions are, 
1. If the doe that kidded the doeling with the undesireable teats has normal 1 x 1, does that mean the messed up teats came from the buck or could they still have come from the doe? All three does were bred to the same buck and only one of the five wasn't 1 x 1.
2. Would you automatically cull the little doeling with the messed up teats or would she be okay to use for breeding?
3. How concerned should I be that my new doelings with 1 x 1 teats will kid babies with messed up teats (if this trait is from the buck could they be carriers for this)?
4. What makes for a buck quality kid and what age can you make that determination? The buck's sister is the one with messed up teats.

Really wanting advice and trying to learn more. I am hoping to also let my son show in 4H next year, so we are wanting to produce quality goats. I am pretty much figuring that the little doeling will have to be a cull, just is a bummer because she is solid black and very thick looking. Hope all this makes sense.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: Need some advice*

Teat issues are genetic and either one parent is showing them or both are carrying the gene for it. I would never repeat the breeding and use any offspring for meat especially the one that has the teat issue.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Need some advice*

I have had some interesting combos here with 1:1 buck over 2:2 does. Sometimes they produce 2:2 out of the 2:2 but rarely 2:2 out of a 1:1.

I would cull the fish teat one myself.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Need some advice*

If you are breeding for meat only then... teat structure shouldn't matter..unless your breeding Doe... cannot feed her kids... 1x1 clean Doe... may or may not be responsible for throwing them...could be the buck put with her....or some genetics... that he has... when put with her... throw them back more.... You can try a different buck with her.... and see if that helps...

Clean teated Goats ..when bred ...can always have a throw back here and there...so... if this was her first time with this buck... it may be different with another one.... The thing is... you never know....

I usually start judging the buckling at 2 to 3 months old ...I look at the teat structure and conformation of the buckling and I want one that stands out and has the wow factor ...over the others.... I want muscle... width..strong pasterns good testies..straight back and bite...not a big tail drop........

If the buck is good teated....... it all depends on what he is bred to and the genetics involved...even then ...as I mentioned prior.. it can bounce back...if it was only one kid... that is flawed... out of twins... I wouldn't down that Momma Doe for it...

As to the messed up teated Doe...if you are breeding for meat..and she is able to feed her kids ...I'd give her a chance..... breed her and see...but pick the right buck for her....

With boers... you will find throw backs.... even bred to clean sire and Dam..... :wink:


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## pennyspasture (Dec 22, 2011)

*Re: Need some advice*

I will not be breeding to this buck again as the owner has sold him. I am going to send her an email though and see how many of her babies may/maynot have ended up with this type of problem. This might help narrow down where the fish teat came from. I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks for all the advice so far.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Need some advice*



pennyspasture said:


> I will not be breeding to this buck again as the owner has sold him. I am going to send her an email though and see how many of her babies may/maynot have ended up with this type of problem. This might help narrow down where the fish teat came from. I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks for all the advice so far.


Yes, do let us know what you find out that will be interesting!

We have gotten one set of cluster teats, and every few years a fish teat from all clean teated breeding stock. 
It's really no huge thing, all in all there is always something in regards to not getting show quality. A couple of mine dont have enough pigmentation & dont usually have fully pigmentented kids either.
But they are built to produce. Like Pam said so long as they can feed the kids.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Need some advice*

:thumbup:



> I will not be breeding to this buck again as the owner has sold him. I am going to send her an email though and see how many of her babies may/maynot have ended up with this type of problem. This might help narrow down where the fish teat came from. I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks for all the advice so far.


 Yes ..keep us updated..... :hug:


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## pennyspasture (Dec 22, 2011)

*Re: Need some advice*

I heard back from the lady who owned the buck. She had already sold her first batch of kids, so wasnt' able to tell me what their teat structure was. She has five kids left and all of them are 1x1. I have been doing a little more research and am starting to understand that the fish teat is a cull trait, but I am goin to watch this little doe. I am already noticing that it is looking less like a fish teat and more like a seperate smaller teat on the side (more like her other side). I found a post somewhere that referred me to this chart.
http://www.abga.org/teat-structure.php
I would say the closest to what she has is the one labeled 4, which is considered a split teat. Her other side is like number 2. I am thinking I will wait to make my decision on if I should cull her or not. I want to see how she develops and how this split teat turns out. 
So my next question is this. If it turns out to be a split teat and I breed her to a boer buck, would it be best to breed her to a 2x2 buck?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Need some advice UPDATE*

I'd try the 2x2 buck ....with her... but yet you never know....

A way to tell... if she will be OK in the teat structure....If the (spur) teat is 50% or less of the length of the main teat...and is nonfunctionable..she is acceptable.... :wink:

When they are really young.... it is hard to tell what the teats are....but.. as they get older ...you will see any flaws better..... So check the split level...50% or less is good...anything over isn't....

The new ABGA teat chart for 2013..below... changed a bit...it will be called a spur... rather than a split from pic #4...in the old chart and in 2013 will be called a spur.... :wink:

http://www.abga.org/fileupload/pdfs/Let ... 20Teat.pdf


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## pennyspasture (Dec 22, 2011)

*Re: Need some advice UPDATE*

I looked at them again tonight andt it looks like ther are more "spurs" forming around the one main teat. The buck now looks like he has some forming too. I will keep watching, but it looks like they will be sent to freezer camp. If both kids develope spurs would it be best to cull mom too or would it be better to breed her to a dairy buck and see if she does better (she is a nubian)?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Need some advice UPDATE again*

Dairy breeds are more likely ...not to throw the bad trait ....if they come from a clean teat line of genetic's.... boers can have the throw backs in their lines... way back and it can show in certain does.... If the buck kid is now showing spurs and none of your other Does are showing bad teat traits.....do not use that buck with her or try another buck line....whether it be boer or dairy.... :wink:


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## pennyspasture (Dec 22, 2011)

*Re: Need some advice UPDATE again*

Hoping this works. Here's a photo of the doelings teats.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

My thought....Keep her. In the pic I dont see how she will have a issue. Ill be honest, I have one doe that has a working teat and right, and I mean right by that one is a none working one, no issues with her feeding her kids, so far 4 of them. I also had one, she passed away, but she had a teat, and on that teat was another teat growing off of it, again she raised 2 kids till she passed away. If your not after reg. I would not worry about it, so if you like her I would keep her.


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## pennyspasture (Dec 22, 2011)

I am going to keep her and give her a try. The worst thing that can happen is we end up with goats for the freezer, which actually is one of our goals. The best possibility is that it doesn't happen again and I end up with some cool colored goats.


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