# Who tests for CL/CAE?



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Hey everyone, I'm curious as to whether you test/have tested for these diseases in your herd. Do you test your goats? Do you test yearly or just once and then keep a closed herd? I'd also like to know appx how many goats you have, and what their main purpose is (meat, milk, pets blah blah blah  )

I ask this because I'm interested in what the majority of you do/how you feel about testing and keeping your herd clean. I also want to look for "patterns" with testing and different factors such as breed, purpose, and number of goats(like to see if dairy goats are tested more than meat, or large herds are tested more than a couple pet goats) I hope this makes sense lol! Or do you not test at all, and why?

Thanks


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I have about 11 dairy goats right now... I test(well just started testing) yearly for CAE. I've heard the CL blood test isn't very accurate so I just do CAE a little while before my does kid so I know they are clean before kidding. 
I have never had any abscesses on my goats before so thus the reason I haven't tested for CL.. If I did happen to get one, I would isolate the goat and test the puss. 

Hope that helps


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

We have dairy, for drinking ,cheese and soap...we have 11 grown does tested Neg for CAE..we dont test for CL and I have not tested my bucks...which we have five right now...we test all retained does once they are 6 months or older...even if mom is negative...


----------



## Emzi00 (May 3, 2013)

I test for CAE, CL, and Johnes. I have dairy goats, just a few right now but will have more in the future. I show, so I want to make sure my herd stays clean. I plan on testing yearly for all three, but after a couple years I'll probably just do CAE and Johnes to cut back on costs. I haven't had any abscesses, but if I do the animal will be quarantined, tested, and if positive, will be culled(as in killed, not wanting to pass on the problem). Bucks and any wethers will probably be tested biannually instead of annually. I also dam raise, so that's another big reason for testing. Whether you test or not, it doesn't change the fact of whether they're positive or negative, it's better to know.


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

^ I agree, tested or not they can still be diseased so it's better to know. But I find that many people don't worry about or bother with testing, for one reason or another. Most of the people I know who don't test either raise meat goats or have a couple backyard pets. 

On the other hand, dairy goat breeders seem to be more vigilant with testing. It's not always the case, but usually...


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I have 11 breeding animals for meat production but also do sell quite a few kids for breeding/pets/companions etc. Right now I have 21 on the farm all together with this years kids.

This is the 2nd year I have tested all the adults and any new younger animals I've brought in. Our herd still changes a lot as we find our footing and many animals I buy were bred from tested parents but not tested themselves. 

I would have a hard time with the "closed herd" thing even if we achieve 3 clean years of testing of the same goats because we bring in a new buck every two years or so. But my vet recommends 3 years of negative tests and then close the herd...


----------



## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I test for CL/CAE/Johnes yearly. I have 9 goats on site, 2 goats at pregnancy camp and 1 out on stud. The number fluctuates a lot. I test yearly for my "base" herd and new ones when I get them. If it's time to test the whole herd and I've tested a new goat less than 6 months ago, I skip that one, more than 6 months I re test it.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I tested once when I first started. After the very high vet bill and lots of thinking I don't test any more and have 6 for sure positive cl does. 
I have 69 does most are boers but a few dairy for the extra milk for any kids who need it. Most kids are sold as meat and a good handful of papered breeding stock. I make all the buyers sign a sales form that says that they understand I do not test and so far it has never been a issue. Some where even tested before the left and were clean (after I suggested testing since they were new to goats) 



Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I tested everyone including the sheep this year for CAE, CL and Johnes. I have 11 goats, soon to be 12 and 2 sheep. I will test everyone again next spring, and do my selling, and close my herd... I will then decide to continue to test every year or every other year...


----------



## RaineyDayFarms (Oct 10, 2013)

This will be my first year testing my goats. But I want to make sure everyone is healthy and not harboring anything. I like the test offered by waddl, the biosecurity test. It includes cae, CL and johnes. And I'm pretty sure I'll do the q-fever test at the same time. I got the tubes from work and will be ready to send everything out come September.


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I used to test for CAE until my herd started coming up negative on a regular basis, then I stopped because my herd is closed. I see no need to test for CL - I know my herd has it. In the event of a prospective buyer, I will test then if the buyer asks me to.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I really do consider testing for cae. I had a little doeling and I'm almost positive she had it and it was so heart breaking having to sell her at not even 3 because she couldn't walk up a hill. 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I've never tested before, but I think I'll start this fall. Just so I KNOW if my goats are positive for something...There's a CL outbreak in my area, which scares me to death! Mostly because I borrowed a buck from non-caring people, who's goats were thin and dirty. Luckily I didn't find any lumps on him, and the other goats I glimpsed at seemed abscess free. Oh well, lesson learned and fingers crossed...

Honestly CAE doesn't scare me as much as CL, though I'm guessing it should. I know CAE is a lot more serious and even deadly to the animal, but it doesn't seem to spread as quickly as CL. I mean, once the puss is out everything's at risk. 

Quick CL question: can bucks get an abcess on their scrotum?


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I have a small herd of dairy goats. They are firstly my pets, secondly dairy animals, thirdly I do harvest my wethers. 

At this point my keeper herd is 3 bucks, 5 does. 

I tested my foundation animals for CL, CAE, and JOHNES.

Now I test for CAE yearly, as I can afford. This year we were able to test the whole herd, and came up negative. It's such a nice feeling, even when you bought from negative herds, to have that clean bill of health.

I feel it is important because it will effect the animal's quality of life. I also choose to dam-raise, so CAE testing is quite important to me.

EDIT: To answer your question, CAE can be managed by pasteurizing milk for the kids. CL *is* scary, but not an absolute death sentence. Lumps are usually around lymph nodes.


----------



## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Mine have not been tested yet, but have been bought from tested clean herds for the most part. I have seen no signs of any of the diseases so far, so I don't see any urgent need for it, but I will as soon as I can  I show as well, and have Nigerians and Boers, so I want to have a clean herd


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I used to show in 4-h, but I'm glad I don't anymore. It's too risky, you never know what diseases are on the fairgrounds! In fact this "CL outbreak" that's occurring in my area is thought to have started at our local fair. If people were more trustworthy or educated about these issues..sadly most 4-hers in my area DON'T care, and that's how problems like this start.

The lady dealing with this outbreak put down all six of her beautiful nubian does, after trying to "treat it" for months. I'm sure her son's show sheep are infected now too


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

canyontrailgoats said:


> Honestly CAE doesn't scare me as much as CL, though I'm guessing it should. I know CAE is a lot more serious and even deadly to the animal, but it doesn't seem to spread as quickly as CL. I mean, once the puss is out everything's at risk.
> 
> Quick CL question: can bucks get an abcess on their scrotum?


Yes, CAE should scare you a LOT more than CL! There is evidence that CAE can be sexually transmitted, and I know that is how I got it in my herd. I borrowed a buck that I didn't know was CAE positive, and every single doe he serviced turned up with it. Yes, bucks can develop CL abscesses in their scrotum, but it is pretty rare. Sheep tend to develop internal CL abscesses, whereas goats tend to develop external abscesses. Personally, while I don't want either one in my herd - having dealt with both, I would take CL over CAE any day of the week!


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

canyontrailgoats said:


> If people were more trustworthy or educated about these issues..sadly most 4-hers in my area DON'T care, and that's how problems like this start.
> 
> (


I don't think it's a matter of people not being trustworthy or not caring, I think it's more a matter of goats can be bought cheap and there are an awful lot of people out there who think they are expendable because of that. The buck that infected part of my herd with CAE was subsequently sold to a lady I know to service her does. She had him tested and he turned up positive. She called the former owner, told him, and his response was "CAE is no big deal". I'm sorry, it IS a big deal. It can and does substantially shorten a does life.


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Yep, you get what you pay for...a cheap goat doesn't equal a good deal, in most cases...


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

That isn't what I mean Canyontrail. When I say "cheap", I mean as opposed to buying a heifer or a performance horse. You cannot touch a good quality heifer for less than $1000.00. Last year I had at least $84,000 worth of rodeo horses in the pens at my place alone! I know that there are goats that are going for thousands of dollars, but that is the exception - not the rule. Most goats can be bought for a couple of hundred dollars. Until the perception of "what the hell - it's a goat and I can replace her cheaply" changes, people aren't going to take CAE or CL serious.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think cl comes across more scary because you can actually see it. But really I think I would rather be able to see it and know who for sure has it and be able to do something about it. In my case manage it. But at least when you to to someone's place and you see abscesses or goats with scars under their ears you know they have it. 
Honestly they both suck don't get me wrong on that 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Ok, I understand msScamp...

I never thought of it like that Jessica, it IS easier when you can see that they have an infection. With CAE you usually can't tell until its too late, after they've nursed kids.


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Hi,
I'm relatively new to this. I have had my goats tested once so far. I will have them tested again before they are bred and then probably each time before they are bred or if there are symptoms. I do find the threat of CAE much more scary than CL for several reasons, though both are very serious. CL does not seem to be a problem around here or from where my goats came (3 goats, two different herds.) CAE, from what I have read, is very common in the U.S. with up to 81% or so of dairy goats at least carrying it.
I saw this article about how to control future outbreaks of CL with custom designed vaccinations: http://www.clgoatcare.org. The vaccinations won't eliminate the disease , but are intended to help prevent future abscesses from occurring.
CAE is caused by a retrovirus and retroviruses hide out in the hosts' cells. The HIV virus and herpes viruses are examples retroviruses. Just like shingles can occur in people many years after having chicken pox, CAE can be dormant and surface later even if a goat has tested negative in the past. My vet told me that a goat can convert to positive at any time. She told me of a case where a doe had been negative for years and suddenly tested positive at an old age. It had not had recent exposure that she was aware. Goats can also sometimes go from positive to negative on CAE tests.
Retroviruses are bad news.


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

That's really sad about the CL being spread at the fair. I have not shown my goats and have been debating whether to or not. This makes me less inclined to do so. (They are Nigerians BTW.) Fairs are probably the worst because they are there for a longer period of time. 
At the CA State Fair, one of the exhibitors had lined the inside of the provided pens with a mesh fencing with smaller openings (if that makes sense.) I didn't ask, but I presumed it was to minimize the contact with the adjacent goats. Seems smart to me.


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

That's interesting about CAE! I suppose it is a scarier disease than CL, for the above reasons. 

And yeah, I find showing goats to be too risky...especially at 4-h fairs. To each their own, but I prefer not too.


----------



## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

There was a 20 year study done on CAE by a university that concluded there was no proof that it is passed through secretions like saliva or urine or breeding. However, it is passed through blood at a high percentage and colostrum at 80% and sweet milk at 15%. I have had CAE in my herd in the past due to being a novice It can be rough if not handled correctly (prevention) but I had does live years and did wonderfully with car except it cut down their milk volume. Also the kids (if caught in time) are usually negative. 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Hopefully CAE only passes through blood and milk, then it would be a little less risky..my does were headbutting and both their scurs broke, so I'm certain they "exchanged" blood. Fingers crossed that neither of them have CAE!


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I think the rate of positive does is lower than 80% at this point ... but not positive. I think it also depends on where they came from partially. Sometimes it just seems to pop up but if you test and buy from tested herds IMO your chances are good (at least I hope, haha!)


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

rebelINny said:


> There was a 20 year study done on CAE by a university that concluded there was no proof that it is passed through secretions like saliva or urine or breeding.


I don't believe that for a moment. Back when I first got started raising goats I bought 21 does in groups of 3 to 6 head from several different herds. All of them were supposed to be bred, but some of them - maybe 7 or 8 head - came up open. I didn't have a buck at that time, so I borrowed a buck from someone who I believed to be reputable, and put him in with them. They settled, delivered, raised their kids, and started showing signs of CAE. Some months later the buck was sold, tested, and turned up positive for CAE. The kicker here is that _not a single doe from any of those herds who was not serviced by that buck ever developed CAE. _ I tested my herd, culled any doe who turned up positive, and kept testing until everyone came up negative for at least 3 tests.


----------



## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

*Correction on %*

The 80% is apparently old info and too high:

"Early papers stated that 80% of all United States origin goats were infected with CAEV, but these statistics were based on a highly biased group of animals exhibiting clinical symptoms (1,2). Subsequent studies sampling all animals in numerous herds report infection rates averaging 31% (3,4). There appears to be no difference in prevalence between sexes or among breeds. Some authors report that fiber breeds of goats such as Angora and Cashmere are resistant, but their low CAEV test rate probably reflects lack of exposure and not disease resistance. The prevalence of CAEV increases with age in herds with positive testing animals."

It does say the rate of positives increases with age....

awog.net/Goats/cae.htm


----------



## Udder Folks (May 24, 2013)

Each of my goats was purchased from a clean herd, but I'm getting ready to test everyone so I have my own paperwork before selling kids. To those of you who test: do you draw the blood on your own? I know our vet will come out and do it, but it's going to be pricey. I've watched some youtube videos of it being done, and it looks doable. But how hard is it, really?


----------



## Udder Folks (May 24, 2013)

And oh, my, that CL test is pricey (I'm looking online at WADDL). If we've never had CL in our three years of goat-ownership, are we in good shape? I was thinking I would test for CAE, Johnes, and CL - are all three really the standard, and necessary for making sales?


----------



## nigies4ever (Sep 19, 2012)

Udder Folks said:


> And oh, my, that CL test is pricey (I'm looking online at WADDL). If we've never had CL in our three years of goat-ownership, are we in good shape? I was thinking I would test for CAE, Johnes, and CL - are all three really the standard, and necessary for making sales?


I draw my own blood..having a vet out to do it is much too expensive for us. In my opinion, it looks harder than it actually is. Shave the neck really well and have a good helper to hold the goat and you're golden. Finding the vein just takes patience..

I personally test for all 3...if you were to choose one, I'd say CAE. If you've had no abscesses in your herd and no Johne's symptoms, you can probably get away with just that for most sellers.

I just choose to test for all 3 because A) I made the mistake of buying/breeding a doe from an untested herd, that did have sure symptoms of some diseases. I'm very fortunate she came back negative for all 3 diseases. B) we don't have the space to quarantine for a contagious/transmittable disease. I'd rather have a heads-up if somebody is going to have an incurable issue...

That's just my 2 cents .


----------



## nigies4ever (Sep 19, 2012)

Truth be told, I'm a huge worry-wart so a big part of testing for all 3 was peace of mind! :lol:


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The more data that comes to light about the CL testing, the less trust should be taken from negative test results. The reason for this is, the bacterium _Corynebacterium_ _pseudotuberculosis _travels through the regional draining lymphatic system. So a goat can be infected to the point where it will manifest external abscess but still test negative with a blood test.

Here is a blurb from an article I read recently:
False-negative results can occur if testing is done in the first 2 wk after exposure before the animal has seroconverted. Also, animals with chronic, walled-off abscesses can have a false-negative result. Colostral titers usually disappear by 3-6 mo of age, so serologic testing of lambs or kids <6 mo old should be interpreted with caution.

What this means is, titer levels can fluctuate greatly. That even a goat actively growing a CL abscess can test negative.

Here is a link to that article. http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/c...s_and_lymphangitis/caseous_lymphadenitis.html

I know thats a lot of info and I am not saying dont test. I am saying if you do CL test, dont trust it.


----------



## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I have tested only once. I had 2 dairy does (1 Nigerian and 1 Nubian) and the Nubian had an abscess, so we tested. I now have 3 does and all are from clean herds as were the bucks they bred with. The Nubian passed away, but I still have the Nigerian and 2 LaManchas.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

TDG-Farms said:


> The more data that comes to light about the CL testing, the less trust should be taken from negative test results. The reason for this is, the bacterium _Corynebacterium_ _pseudotuberculosis _travels through the regional draining lymphatic system. So a goat can be infected to the point where it will manifest external abscess but still test negative with a blood test.
> 
> Here is a blurb from an article I read recently:
> False-negative results can occur if testing is done in the first 2 wk after exposure before the animal has seroconverted. Also, animals with chronic, walled-off abscesses can have a false-negative result. Colostral titers usually disappear by 3-6 mo of age, so serologic testing of lambs or kids <6 mo old should be interpreted with caution.
> ...


Interesting! I'll probably test everyone this year again, but will only test after that if I see any questionable abscesses.


----------



## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

I don't Cl test because it's like $30 per goat.
CAE tests are very cheap so I do test for that


----------



## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

This will be my first year testing, for CAE. My foundation stock was from clean herds, but I'd like to have my own paperwork, for selling the kids. I will also be testing the milk for TB, for peace of mind for anyone consuming their milk products. And, I found a lab that will test milk for fat, protein, lactose etc. percentages for a fraction of the cost of having someone "official" travel all the way out here for an "official" milk test on my three does in milk. I plan to do that instead.


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Im testing for CAE , JOHNES , but am still deciding if I'm going to test for CL.
I haven't had a reason to test for it ….still learning and the more i read the more confused i get about it all. Its a very expensive test to do when the results that you get can leave you in the same place you started...


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I only test for CAE right now...I wont test for CL...it cost too much and as TDG said...not always trustworthy...I keep a clean herd..no CL cyst ..if I have one show a cyst..I will deal with it..


----------



## nigies4ever (Sep 19, 2012)

Good to know about the CL testing...I'll have to keep that in mind.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

So, since I'm closing my herd (barring anymore rescue freebies..LOL - I did tell the lady I cannot take anymore) and several have had negative results for the last 2 years, after testing this year can I stop testing for a couple years as long as no one comes in, and I don't take anyone out..?


----------



## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Does can sero-convert, so I'd still test, maybe just not every year.


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I think its worth doing , definitely , but not as much as CAE and JOHNES. Unless of course you have a reason..


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

So perhaps every other year would be good....


----------



## nigies4ever (Sep 19, 2012)

I'd think so...even though you aren't planning on introducing any new goats, remember that diseases can travel via the paws, hooves, feet, etc. of other animals. Just a thought.


----------



## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

nigies4ever said:


> I'd think so...even though you aren't planning on introducing any new goats, remember that diseases can travel via the paws, hooves, feet, etc. of other animals. Just a thought.


Or the feet of people.


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

If you show , you can bring all the fun home with you ….


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I was considering showing, but nope not going too..


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Not that I have anything against showing , just adding to the post things can be brought onto your farm via hooves , feet as well.


----------



## nigies4ever (Sep 19, 2012)

Good point, Laura...and also other ranches. I always change boots and wash the other ones when I go to someone else's place.


----------



## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

We just sent blood test samples into WADDL on both our does. Decided to test for all CL, CAE, Johnnes and Q-Fever so we had official paperwork going forward in our files. I panicced a little this afternoon when I saw everyone on this thread say how expensive it was....am I misreading the price? I believe it says $7.00 for CL. Anyone know how long it takes to get test results back?


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Mine were back within 2 weeks, but I sent them in before the holidays.., that's why mine took so long.


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The entire bio screen test is about $30. Not just CL.


----------



## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

Ugh!!! I don't want to wait for 2 wks to find out if they are pregnant! Hopefully they can do this one faster? I sure hope they don't wait until all the tests are completed before sending the results for the pregnancy tests. :mecry:

Gonna make myself crazy waiting.......:GAAH:


----------



## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

TDG-Farms said:


> The entire bio screen test is about $30. Not just CL.


What do you mean Dave? Explain what bio screen means? First time sending in blood so not sure....


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

WADDL offers what they call a bio security screen test I believe. Or at least used to. They would test for CL, CAE, Johnes and a few others things.

Here is a link to their fee table. I looked but couldnt find the bio screen. But CL was 10.50 for outta state, CAE was 6.75 for outta state and Johnes was 6.75 for outta state.

Sorry, guess its just the 3 (CL, CAE and Johnes) Here is a blurb from their website:

Biosecurity Screen ( Small Ruminant Lentivirus (CAE/OPP), Johne's, CL)


----------



## nigies4ever (Sep 19, 2012)

Yep...I'm in Cali and that's what I did. They have certain testing dates (you can find them on their website), so if you send samples at the right time, you can get results back in 3-5 days. I however was not smart and shipped my samples on CAE testing day...it took me 9 days to get results, I believe. But I'm usually too impatient to wait for results to come in the mail, so I call instead. :lol:


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

You can often call them the following monday after your tests and get a verbal result


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

So far I've only tested for CAE. 

Agree with those who say pulling blood is not that difficult to learn. A good helper is key! )


----------



## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

We just did it for the first time. Definitely until you get the hang, make sure you shave a big enough spot. My hubby thought it was pretty easy.


----------

