# HELP Sick Doeling, maybe Endotoxemia but have no antitoxin



## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

So this is sort've a long thing but heres the recap:

alpine/Pygmy mix Doeling
Week and a half old
Lethargic, not wanting to nurse, a bit pale, squats to pee a lot (I thought she had a UTI for a bit but was told if she's eating and pooping okay then to wait it out.) and shivers.
Has a temp of 105.1 
I went to the TSC and they were out of C&D antitoxin
I have Norocillin here and the syringe and needle as well as rubbing alcohol. 
i've given her some nutridrench twice so far.

The Norocillin says 1 ml per 100 pounds of body weight. She's about 7 or 8 pounds at the most.

Heres what I need to know: 
How much Norocillin to give her. 
How long will I have to get some antitoxin if it is endotoxemia 
And since she's so small will the 22G 3/4th needle I got her work? 
Would this count as a 'veterinary emergency'? 
Things about me: 
This is the first baby goat I've ever handled. I've only had goats for maybe two weeks.
I got her and her momma about four days ago.
I have less that 3 dollars to my name. 
I have no idea what I'm doing. 
Have tried contacting a vet but they've bounced me around time and time again no one wants to treat a goat.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Do you have any MOM or activated charcoal on hand? That will work as an antitoxin in a pinch. How is her poop, runny bloody or green? Try to keep her hydrated with an electrolyte mix, and make sure to get some MOM or whatever into her until you get the antitoxin. And get some probios into her as well...


Edit: I'm not sure on the norocillin, hopefully someone else can help you with that! And now that I reread your post, it sounds a lot like pneumonia.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

What is MOM? 

And no, no Charcoal that I know of. 

And I haven't seen her poop, so I don't know. She's been with me a few hours, but no pooping. She doesn't show any poop residue, either. I've got her mothers milk mixed in with Nutridrench so I'm hoping that will work to help keep her hydrated. 

i was told antibiotics cause she has a fever and that means infection?


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Oh, found something about the Norocillin. 

Goat Dosage:
Kids:1-2ml SC (SQ) for baby goats (8-25lbs), 1 or 2 times daily. 
Adults: 6-10 ml SC (SQ) for adult goats, 2X daily. 
You can double recommend maximum dose on first injection, then divided daily dose and inject every 12 hours for 2-3 days, then 1X daily thereafter. 
It should be administered for 5 days after all symptoms have disappeared. 

So.. It DOESN'T Go in the muscle? But under the skin?


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Oh dear, her Temps risen to 106.3

Should I put her in coolish water to lower it?


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

MOM is milk of magnesia, sorry. It's not good that she isn't pooping, she might be constipated. In that case mineral oil will help. 

The high temp and chills scream pneumonia, and for that you'll need antibiotics like nuflor. 

Btw it would be best to not mix the drench and milk, nutri drench burns their throat and discourages nursing. If you have b complex, give her a shot of that.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes, give it SQ.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Yep, sq is under the skin like on the ribs. I hope someone better at this will help you, I'm stuck on this one! :/


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

She's drooling a bit now.. :/ 

Slightly slimy and mucusy. 

I'll check for MOM. I MIGHT have it. how much do I give her if I do?


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I HAVE MOM! YES! 

Okay how much do I give to her?


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I think you give half a cup, May be wrong but do what you gotta do as she seems to be going downhill. What is she doing right now, laying down or standing?


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Did you give her the norocillin?


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Right now she's standing. Just just pee'd. 

The dosing for MOM is 15CC per 60 pounds of body weight. So she's.. 7 or 8 so I'll start her with... 2CC? How long before it takes effect? 

I'm about to give the Norocin. 

She's walking around and checking things out right now. Prolly looking for a place to sleep. 

For Electrolytes.. Would something like Poweraid work?


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## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

If you search homemade electrolytes you may have the ingredients on hand


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Okay. Administering the SQ injection now. 

Would you recommend a slightly cool bath to bring down the fever?


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## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

No, I would not but I am the same person from the other forum. I have never heard this recommended.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

SO I JUST LOOKED UP THE NOROCILLIN

"Good for treating Clostridial myositis, Enterotoxemia, or Strep. mastitis. Generally used twice a day. Give in the muscle if you want the blood level to come up faster. SQ injections are less damaging and usually less painful than IM injections. Penicillin injections that hit a blood vein can kill an animal almost immediately. Dosage recommended between 3-5 cc per 100 lbs." 

DD So she might make it yet!


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

It should work fairly quickly, make sure she starts pooping or you'll have to help her constipation. Poweraid isn't the best but will work in an emergency. Do you molasses, Apple cider vinegar, and warn water? With that you can make your own elecs, look it up in the forum for the exact recipe.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Is her temp going down any??


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I have had my vet recommend a cold bath if the temperature gets very high because at a certain point they can start to have brain damage. HOWEVER, if it is pneumonia then a subnormal temperature is also possible and would pose its own risks. If you have any Banamine or baby aspirin I would use that first to reduce the fever. If you do opt for the cold bath you will need to keep taking the temperature very frequently and get her dry and warm as soon as it drops to normal range, then keep checking to be sure it levels off.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Okay, I just gave her the shot. 

How horrifying. Mostly for me. I left her side where I put the needle wet with a bit of rubbing alcohol. The wet patch should help disperse heat. 

No poops yet, gonna try another ml of MOM.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Temp is 106.2

So it dropped 0.1 degree. It's progress.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Keep getting liquids into her, Gatorade will work for now. Just keep her hydrated! And a little mineral oil will help her poop if you want to do that..


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

So I'm using a technique my mom used on me. Putting her in a bathtub full of water the temperature she SHOULD be if not a few degrees colder. 

Bath water is sitting at room temp up to her legs. She's drinking the bath water very eagerly. When her temp drops a bit I may warm the water up to a 'normal' range for a goat. 

Would you recommend letting her nurse from momma? (( Poor Momma, she's so worried! )) 

Behaviorally she's perking up and getting more rambunctious. Her calls and cries of protest are much louder than they were before. Urine is clear in color.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Temp is now 105.6!


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I'm glad she's feeling a little better  . I would hold off on the milk until she is completely well, just electrolytes and probios for now.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

If you're going to give her fluids I would give ones that are a bit cool, like room temperature. That will bring her temp down faster than liquid outside the body.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Alright. 

I don't have any Probios, though. The closest thing I have is her moms milk. So she's just gonna get water for now. 

OMG SHE'S PLAYING IN THE WATER! Just a light pawing and splashing, but still!


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

How cute! You have the poweraide right? I'd be more inclined to give her that over straight water, she needs those electrolytes badly and it will give her energy. Or like I said Apple vinegar and molasses in COOL water...

For probiotics you can mix some yogurt in with her liquid, or crush achidophillus tablets and give her those. You should be able to find probios, electrolytes and everything else you need at a local animal/farm supply.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I don't have any AV, but I have maple syrup. Like I said, NEW goat person. 

she's now feeling well enough to jump out of the tub. So I wetted her back so she could cool down more.. Now my dogs are licking her. I found evidence of poop in the tub, too. Just a couple flakes, though. My dogs are licking her dry.. I guess that's one way of doing it.. 

Should I water down the poweraid a little?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Maple syrup won't help. Yes, I would water the Powerade down maybe 50/50. Personally I would choose plain water over it because of all the chemicals.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

You could water it down a little, and if you have yogurt you can mix some of that in as well. Keep track of her temp to make sure she doesnt get too chilled now that she's out of the tub.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

And if you're worried about chemicals like wild hearts said, you can just use water with yogurt and a little molasses or honey. I've used Gatorade with goats for years without issue, but it might actually be harmful for them so...do what you feel is best


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Well, according to a couple sites Powerade is a good thing to keep on hand for them. 

I'll give her 2 ML straight powerade, then water the rest down.

Temp is 105.2. The normal range for goats is 101.7 to 104.5, so 105.2 isn't THAT horrible of a temp, is it? That would be like a person running 99.3, wouldn't it?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Be sure to dry her well....you dont want her to get a chill..if her temp rises up again..try cool pack under her arm pits and behind her ears...that way she wont be too wet...Sounds like she has Pneumonia ....keep up the antibiotics every 12 hours for 5-7 days..a baby aspirin will help with fever as well..

its better to put a little molasses in water over plain water in bottles..power aid is fine too..keeping her hydrated is most important..I wouldn't give any more MOM now that she has pooped...it will keep working for a while..she may get runny...if she is pooping fine..I would let her nurse mom...less stress on both of them...

best wishes


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Well, she didn't make a full poop, just some little flakes of poop.

I've been told I should give her some of the Norocillin (Penicillin G Procaine) orally to her? One dose in a shot one dose in her mouth. 

I only have six needles, though, and I used two on the first shot.. I don't think you can disinfect and reuse a needle if you run out and thats the only way to to get the medication out.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Temp is now 105.8. 

Gonna put some ice in a baggy and make her lay on it.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

She's not happy with life. 

How would I give her mineral oils to encourage pooping? Through an enema? How would I give her an enema?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

It is not good to give antibiotic orally....I would continue injected...It is not ideal to reuse needles but sometimes when its all you have..you do it...soak in alcohol between uses and try not to use one more then twice...they get real dull...

for an enema...mix 1 tablespoon oil in 1/2 cup warm water...use a syringe (no needle) to draw some up and insert just the tip...push slowly..do this until she feels full and massage her tummy..it can tae 30-40 minutes to get things moving..

best wishes


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I think I'll give the MOM a little more time. It's supposed to be overnight relief.. But if I don't see anything in an hour I'll try the enema. 

Would going outside be good for her? She's dried off and it's about 80 outside.

OH! And I took her to momma, she nursed a little and talked to her a little bit, they both seemed happy.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Just draw it up with a syringe (no needle obviously) and push it in slowly. Stop when her tummy starts feeling fuller but not tight.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes she should be fine out side as long as she is dry..its warm enough..being with mom will be good..

MOM is to be given every 4-6 hours...dont over do...


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Okay. So I should put her with mom all night? Normally I separate them because I milk momma.

It might be better outside. It's slightly cooler than it is inside. Being at 80 degrees should help cool her fever, I hope.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I think she would do fine...when mine are sick I leave them with mom..as long as the are not severe...this reduces stress...I do recommend checking on her a few times through out the night... But she has had all the meds she needs for several hours...and she has mom to keep her hydrated..: ) Go with your gut : ) 

best wishes


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

It seems my temp was off, it's actually 67 degrees outside. But they'd be in a barn... 

I'm so mad, though. When I came into the room my dog chewed up my thermometer! :wallbang:

I'll put her in with mom... She's standing and shaking a lot, though. Like the shivers.. I'm not sure what's gonna be best for her.  Poor Momma goat, this is her first kidding. One of the twins fell into cold water at birth and died, now the other ones sick! (( They kidded off my property, before I owned her. ))


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

So, I don't have baby tylenol, but I do have regular Ibuprofen, Aspirin, and a Tylenol PM


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Okay, sooo Fiasco farms' medication site says aspirin and Ibuprofen can both be used. It says 1 regular aspirin per ten pounds of goat. Regular being 325 mg. 

I have an adult low dose (81 mg) aspirin that I could give her? 

Ibuprofen says double human dosing. But I think it might be better to give her one aspirin? Since it's low dose I could give her two ( 162 MG) and still probably be safe.. Right?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

just plain aspirin...if its adult..give her 1/2 kids chewable give one whole..

as long as she is in a draft free pen...maybe put a sweater on her...but if you feel worried...mom is used to her going off at night..you can keep her indoors....you are there and know the full situation...do what feels right...: )


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I'll give her one of the 81 MG pills. Without a thermometer I can't do much more than hand check her temp, but chances are SOME aspirin is gonna be better than none. 

Darn dog.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Alright. One Aspirin and Two ounces of 60/40 Powerade/Water mix.. Might give her a little bit more to drink.. Then put her with mom and hope for the best..


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Good luck, I hope she feels better tomorrow


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I do too. It's really scary, but I think she's doing better. 

She's loud and cranky, got some color in her, and is moving around more. And she's cooled down by touch, so that's good. @[email protected] I'm not sure if I should stay with the Aspirin to KEEP her fever down or not. Someones told me I shouldn't treat the fever, it'd go down when the infection did and that it'd help kill off the bacteria. But with no thermometer it could go into dangerous territory and I wouldn't know it.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

its a good idea to treat fever...That high can do brain damage, shut down her system ect....you are also treating the infection...so getting this from both sides...: )


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Ditto. A low grade fever I just keep an eye on but if it gets that high I treat. If you were only giving aspirin and not treating the infection that would be more problematic.

Depending on where you live, you might be able to get a new thermometer some place like Walmart. Mine gave out a few weeks ago when I had a doe with respiratory problems and a high fever. Of course!!


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I went out to check on her today, she was shivering a bit but alert and standing. She doesn't feel hot anymore, but I gave her another aspirin just in case and about half an ounce water/powerade. 

Mom's udder shows sign of vigorous nursing, and baby shows signs of having pooped. Just about time for another shot of antibiotics. It seems like she's responding to it.

mom's acting weird now.. I'm not sure what to make of it. 

She's bouncing around jumping on things and randomly jumps into the air and kicks up her heels. I had her normal morning treat and instead of just coming to me she leapt to me and bounced all around me for it. Is she sick or just excited she got to spend the night with her baby?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Sounds like mom just feels good..air temp is not too hot or too cold...but to be sure..I would pick up a new thermometer and check her temp : ) 

using Pen to treat pneumonia can take longer to see GOOD results...but it will work...with baby eating well and alert..I bet she will be just fine..Keep tabs on her temp as well

Best wishes


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

If I get a little money I will, but right now I have 50 cents to my name. I went by how hot her mouth was compared to last night. I gave her an aspirin just in case. It can't hurt, right? 

Okay, I hoped mom was just happy. She cuddled her baby all night long. Plus she got some vitamins that she needed. (I was unaware goats needed loose minerals. So I gave her a little nutridrench to boost her vitamin and Selenium levels.) so I'm sure she's just feeling peppy.. It just worried me, the sudden change in attitude. 

Babies still shivering a bit, though. If she doesn't have a fever and it's 70 outside should I just let her shiver it out? 

Also I'm having issues giving her the shots.. I put the needle in but the stopper wont go down. Am I not putting the needle deep enough into the skin? (I go about halfway in with the needle) or is it getting clogged or something?


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## Rhandi74 (Dec 6, 2013)

Icedangel11 said:


> If I get a little money I will, but right now I have 50 cents to my name. I went by how hot her mouth was compared to last night. I gave her an aspirin just in case. It can't hurt, right?
> 
> Okay, I hoped mom was just happy. She cuddled her baby all night long. Plus she got some vitamins that she needed. (I was unaware goats needed loose minerals. So I gave her a little nutridrench to boost her vitamin and Selenium levels.) so I'm sure she's just feeling peppy.. It just worried me, the sudden change in attitude.
> 
> ...


I have noticed that with smaller gage needles sometimes it is hard to get the antibiotic out, it definatly feels better to them and I would have used a small needle for a young one. I also have a hard time if the goat is moving around a lot.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Just back the needles up a bit..it might be pressed against muscle or bone..: ) 

I think after today she shouldn't need aspirin..the antibiotic should really be kicking in..


Yes goats need loose minerals...a good horse mineral will do well..steer clear of any made by purina..: )


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I used a 3/4ths a gauge, pinched the skin up, then inserted the needle running alongside my fingers, Like below them? And I sort've.. Just do the tip, I guess? I've been going with the loose skin near her from leg, her 'pit' area. Nothing else has enough loose skin to pinch up. 

She moves around so much I'm afraid I'll puncture her ribs or something. 

And my TSC has loose goat minerals. Though it's a small bag for 10$


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Try the area where the neck meets the body, just to the side, that little dip has extra skin usually...its hard on kids..they are wiggly! over the ribs cage is another place..she wont like it either way...

with loose minerals...expect then to gobble it like crazy for a while...after that they will only eat as much as they need...not like grain where they will pig out lol


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

There's some large bags I'll look into. But momma goat LOVES her some nutridrench. She'll suck on the syringe for hours trying to get it out. That was actually her 'treat' today while milking. She'd try to suck the syringe and I'd give her a little bit, and then she got all of it after milking. I think she was a very loved goat before, with how friendly she is. I can only hope her baby will pick up the same attitude.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

22 gauge is very thin and very hard to get the thick stuff out. I prefer 20 gauge for most things and 18 gauge for thick. While the bigger needles look scary, it is worse trying to get too thick of liquid into a squirming animal.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I have a few who think Nutra drench is poison and other who will suck it right up! lol..give in moderation or you may deal with poopy butt!


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Well, Babies doing REALLY well. Her fever broke and she's feeling well enough to run away from me.

She pooped something.. disturbing, though.. A bunch of white slime and then a long black/grey round thing.. It looked like a worm. Is this just.. weird poo from the MOM? I was told she couldn't have worms until three weeks.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

most likely mucus from the meds...keep a close eye on it : ) glad she is feeling better!!..GOOD JOB!!


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

It's nearly time for another shot of antibiotics. 
For the penicillin should I always keep it in the fridge BUT when it's time to give her a shot, or always keep it room temp? 

Also she just let out a big burp. o.e Scared me.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I keep mine in the frig ..when I need to give it I draw up my dose and bring it to room temp by rubbing the syringe in my hands

those burps and gas can sure take us by surprise lol


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Ooh, that's a good idea. It's just about time for her shot, another minutes or so. I THINK I know what I was doing wrong before, so hopefully it'll go smoothly this time. 

Momma seems happy to have her baby overnight, and her milk production hasn't gone down any because of it. Still waiting for her milk to taste 'right' though. It's FINALLY gone up to 'whole milk' taste (can't STAND skim or 2% ) but it leaves an aftertaste. Since she's a FF I'm just gonna give her more time. 

And in the meantime I have a doe showing signs of labor and I'm SO excited for! She's been leading me on for three days now and I'm about ready to reach in and pull the babies out myself! :lol:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

OH Happy Kidding!!!


On moms milk...if you have access to pine ...give her some..it cleans up the milk


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I hope so! Her tail ligaments have been gone a few days, her vulva's loose and practically hangs open, she's pawing and up and down and up and down and she wont stop rubbing her right side against the walls. She's driving me CRAZY! 

Pine? Like.. Pine sol? Or pine wood extract? 

I NEARLY got away with a clean stick today. I got a smaller Syrnge (just a 1ml one, instead of a 13 ml one) and stuck it in, drew it back, and got halfway through before she flailed and jerked it out. So I tried the other side, couldn't get it to work, went back to the first side and finished it off. Covering her head helped. But now she's shaking like a leaf. Think she's just scared?


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I think she means pine needles and bark and such..NO pinesol, it might clean the milk but you'll lose the goat!


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

And I would recheck the shaky goat's temp, just take sure she's not chilled or coming on with a fever again.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Haha, i figured. But you never know. 

And she stopped shaking as soon as she was with momma again. She was just scared.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

YES PINE NEEDLES lol..sorry...

Sounds like baby was traumatized by the injection episode..Im sure that hurt too.poor baby..but we must do whats going to help them recover.

best wishes


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

She probably is.. She doesn't want ANYTHING to do with me now. ;___; She used to lay in my lap and cuddle and now she doesn't. 

Anything I can do to help her? 

Also I have some evergreen trees. I'm not sure what kind they are.. Not sure if she'd eat them. Todays milk was the worst, though. :T Tasted like drinking milk with sugar through a towel or something. Nothing BAD or goaty. Just weird and different.. Then again she's an unknown mixed breed, so maybe she'll just be a soap and lotion kind of goat.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Make sure to NOT feed her ponderosa pine. Other kinds are ok.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I'm not sure what kind of pine I have.. How can I tell ponderosa from the others?


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

If she's pregnant you want to avoid ponderosas. Other than that, they're fine for goats to eat.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Ohh. 

Well Momma's not pregnant.. At least I don't think so. The man I bought her had her running with a billy, but baby was only a week old at that point. And according to the pooch test she's not bred.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Oh, I don't think she is.. I think the man I bought her from had her running with a billy, but her kid was only a week old when I got her. I'm not sure if goats can get pregnant that quickly or not? According to the poosh test she's fine.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I think it's safe to say she's NOT preggo, so she can eat your pines


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

There's other possible effects although abortion is usually what's noticed. No, extremely unlikely that she could get pregnant that soon. But if you take a pictures I can tell you if it's ponderosa.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Well, I checked Ponderosa. They are all pretty small so they should have the black bark... But they just have super flakey brown bark. 

But she didn't want to eat it anyways, so I guess it doesn't matter. She's weird. I even put a little drench on it and she wouldn't touch it. I'm just giving her about half a pump a day, so I thought it'd be the perfect way, two birds and all.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you can leave the limbs out for her..she may nibble them when you are not near...'


also post a pic of her..we might be able to guess her breed : )


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I'll get more pictures soon, but here are the ones I have now

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=624466370976495&set=pcb.624466870976445&type=1&theater

This is my ND doe who SHOULD be having her babies any day now. 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=624466344309831&set=pcb.624466870976445&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=624466547643144&set=pcb.624466870976445&type=1&theater 
And this is the sick doelign. I think you'll actually be able to scroll though all the pictures with these links.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Woops, double post. My bad.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Looking like Saanen crossed with maybe Alpine. I'd say the baby is ND cross.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

The baby is an alpine cross, for sure. 

Momma's not much bigger than the Nigerian Dwarf doe, though. I'm not sure how big Saanen/Alpine crosses get.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

All are pretty!!

if the white doe is small as a nigie , maybe she is a mini Saanen..a cross between nigie and saanen...
baby looks to be crossed with nigie as well.??
your nigerian momma is beautiful!!...


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

The baby's sire was a Alpine, that we know for sure. The guy had her bred to one. Though momma ran with a pygmy buck, so it's hard to say. I don't know how he bought her or when.

The Nigerian (Tea. <3 ) is bred to a Nigerian buck. GORGEOUS, just like her. They've got the same color markings. I'm super excited.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

well from the looks of baby..maybe the pygmy got her first lol..at any rate...she is a doll!!


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Hehe, I'm not sure, but she is cute. And she's doing SO much better every day with the penicillin. Toay she was running and kicking up her little hooves happy as could be.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

That great....I hate when they feel bad...


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

So do I. I can't remember how many days it's been, though. I think now is day 3 of 5? 

Also last night I had a dream that my doe (Tea) blessed me with six beautiful kids. 

Ohhh how I wish it's true.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Ugh... Someone threw away my needles and good syringe (it was a 1 ml one that was SO easy to use. My troubles sticking her went away completely!) 

Now I have one dull needle and a too big syringe. Tonight stick was near impossible, I felt so bad for her! But the only money I have right now is a check and no place was open to cash it. OTL And tomorrows a holiday. I had to stick her three times to get the stopped to go down because, apparently, the suction in the larger syringe is way too high for medications. It's hard to pull it out and push it in.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Is it possible to give her one or two doses Orally, just until I get a sharp needle?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im sorry..I know its frustrating....I would not give it orally...it can mess up the tummy..; ( I hate giving shot.especially kids...I have two right now on Nuflor..I hate that but I know in the long run its what is best...hang in there..I think she shoul dbe about done, right?


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

She is. Today was Day four, so just one more day. 

I had to give it to her orally cause the needle would NOT pierce her skin, and it's the last one I had. Tomorrow I'll get her some more.

In other news...

A Buckling and a doeling. Buckling is 5/6 pounds, doeling is 2/3 
MEMORIAL DAY BABIEZ


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Congrats on the new kids! They have a special birthday


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Yes.  I've named the buckling Soldier and the doeling hasn't got one yet.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

congrats...adorable kids!!

on your doe...be sure to give her probiotics daily to help her tummy .....; )


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I will. 

Also I'm not sure if this is normal.. But Tea's giving 3-4 cups of milk per milking. I've milked her twice so far and still have nearly a full jar even AFTER feeding her twins, plus another does doeling. 

I've read that nigerians only give 3 cups per day.. not per milking?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

feel blessed...: ) sounds like she will give you plenty of milk...I just started with nigerians..but I read some of those little gals can give 1/2 gallon or better!!..


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Lol, more milk is always better! How about Freedom for the girl?


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

She produced 9 cups of milk today. 2.25 quarts. 

Heavens help me I paid 75$ for her. 

And she's doing this on nothing but pasture.

Edit: Also the doelings name became Poppy. A flower associated with the remembrance of wars past.  I thought it was fitting.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Good name choice! And wow, what a steal for 75 bucks


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you might want to slowly add a grain ration to help maintain her condition...she will be giving you plenty of milk for sure!...

love the name choice for both kids!!!


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Is Sweet feed grain? Or is that just like goat candy?


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Sweet feed is grain with molasses


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

better to give regular feed instead of sweet feed...sweet feed is like our kids eating sugary cereal...lots of empty calories...:shocked:


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

So what would regular feed be? Like what would it look like in stores? 

Also I've been told that in order to make goats milk taste anything like cows milk I'd have to boil it an add sugar? Is this true?  I really love the rich creamy taste of Whole milk and half and half.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Regular feed is usually in pelleted form with about 16% protein. Purina goat chow, for example. There are lots of feed brands to choose from. Sweet feed is good for kids that won't eat the pellets yet, just to get them started on it. In case your kids won't touch the pellets...

And no, you don't have to boil and sweeten the milk! It should taste fine once it's strained and cooled. You can pasteurize it, but most people don't. 
Just keep in mind that certain plants and feed, mineral deficiencies, and mastitis will cause off-flavored milk.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I would just ask the store for a goat feed without molasses, they should be able to help you. There are lots of different options and it depends on what they carry in your area. Sweet feed can be many types of grain as well but the molasses is added just to make it taste better - you'll know immediately when you open it because it's sticky and smells like a jar of molasses.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I see, okay. 

So far today, Tea has produced 6 2/3rds cups of milk. I've milked her three times so far.. She's my only goat and I cook with the milk as well as feed her kids. XD She's got one more milking, yet. Normally I only milk her three times, but I milked her once in the middle because I spilled the jar and her kids were hungry.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im sorry..I thought I posted on here about feed lol..guess it didnt load????

yes a pellet feed for goats is better then sweet feed..or you can mix your own..her is an good mix

6 parts whole oats
2 parts calf manna
2 parts BOSS
1 part beet pulp

mix well and serve one part mix with 3 parts alfalfa pellets...my "part" is a 3 # coffee can..: ) 

I agree with canyontrails..you do not have to boil your milk, it kills all the good bacteria we get from raw....goats milk to me is sweeter then cows milk and not as greasy...milk clean and you will have clean milk...be sure to cool it quick...strain quick into a quart size jar and place in ice water bath to cool quick...


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

My milk is cooled within 5 minutes of coming out of the goat. When I strain it I use a coffee filter and it produces a small stream. Then I let it stream-filter in the freezer. Works great! 

Perhaps Teas milk is just bland/slightly odd tasting because it's so soon after she kidded that I tried it? First sip I tasted nothing, second sip I tasted a 'twang'. Not unpleasant, just an extra flavor that I've never really experienced before. Tastes GREAT in eggs, though.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Yep, sometimes you have to wait as long as 3-4 weeks after kidding for it to taste normal.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

pine needles help clean up the milk as well..if you have any pine or cedar...they love it too.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

You are probably tasting the colostrum


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## Juperlative (Mar 25, 2014)

Alright, I'm going to give my 2 cents..Not ND experience, they seem to be fat little buggers most of the time, so it might not be right for that breed. 
Some dairy animals, however will test the limits of consumption...and from what I've experienced, there is no such thing as empty calories, matter of fact, calories from fat/simple carbs seem to be the most efficient in terms of return on production, and body condition. Bacteria that are present in the rumen of goats ferment sugars into volatile fatty acids. These acids are absorbed and are used efficiently for energy. Energy = milk. only when they get enough energy to genetically max out milk production, will they put the extra into body fat. If a goat loses condition when lactating, it's not getting enough calories to cover the demands of milk, so it gets taken from stored fat (releasing ketones, and possibly creating ketosis). It also means your not getting what the doe is capable of, and thats not beneficial, because she's going to try and deplete herself doing it anyway. In my opinion, it's best to increase concentrates incrementally, daily, until production can not be increased. Every extra calorie after that will go towards stored energy (fat). Only by testing her limits, do you learn what she needs for healthy production.
Since concentrates can only be given in so great a quantity before protein and a host of other problems become an issue, sugars and fats can be added for added calories. Basically when they cant safely consume more concentrated feed, it's time to turn to the double stuffed oreos 

My belief is that fat content in commercial goat rations, and dairy concentrates are low...it's the most expensive ingredient in feeds, and of course they want you to have to use more feed to get the results you need. 5% would be the lowest I would go for total daily intake...I suspect 8-12% might be closer to accurate for lactating, and times of increased demand on resources such as winter, breeding.....etc. Most feeds contain somewhere around 2%. Animax and calf manna are such successful supplements because they increase fat %, but also protein, and that is not usually as beneficial. I have found adding just a little fat, gives the same good results. Unless low protein is your issue.

Molasses is actually a very beneficial supplement: it contains significant quantities of trace minerals, such as copper (7ppm), zinc (10ppm), iron (200ppm), manganese (200ppm). It increases milk solids, improves let down, dilutes proteins, improves digestion of fiber, helps prevent heat related stress, and has been proven to increase fertility and.... it also prevents ketosis. It feeds the rumen microbes, improving the utilization of other feeds in the diet. Not empty calories at all.

This being said, keeping rumen balance is part rocket science, and part voodoo. It's always good to keep an eye on things, and learn as much as you can about rumens... it's the biggest most important part of your goat! 

Sorry you guys, but I have to jump in and defend the fats and sugars, they have their place and that is in diets of goats that are not already fat, and those that will benefit from easily digested energy, such as sick goats.

Thanks and good luck with your new babies! Great job saving the doeling....sounded like she was close to being a goner for a minute, but you pulled what I consider to be a miracle, especially for a new goat lover. You did the research, used your brain, and followed thru. Your going to learn so much more, but I bet you'll be really good at it!


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## Juperlative (Mar 25, 2014)

Also, a neat thing I learned years ago about improving milk flavor, was "gassing off". secure a coffee filter with a band for the mason, instead of a lid. 12 hours later when you milk again, cap it. Lots of off flavors will escape in the gases as the milk cools.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

"Usually added fat should not represent more than 5% of a diet because it depresses ruminal fermentation."


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I've fed sweet feed for 4 years now with some good results. It seems to help milk production and keep the weight on them. I definitely feed it to my pregnant does, because they need the extra carbs and sugars late in gestation. I'm going to add alfalfa pellets to the mix so they get more protein and calcium.

BUT, sweet feed should not be fed as an entire grain ration if you feed say, 4+ cups. That much sugar will wreak havoc on their rumen. My first year with goats I fed my milk doe 6 cups of sweet feed thinking it would be fine, and she got terrible acidosis. Now her rumen is weakened because of it...And this same doe got polio this spring! I recently found out that right before she became ill my little bro fed her a whole bowl of SF! So too much WILL hurt their rumen and cause problems. 

So my point is sweet feed is good in smaller amounts, but if you're feeding, for example, a milk doe 4-8 cups daily, "dilute" the sweet with other grains, or feed pelleted rations. Right now my does are getting a cup a day each of sweet feed and they're doing great, but when they kid I'm gonna mix alfalfa and beet pulp into the ration.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Soo.. If I did have to use sweet feed exclusively, as least for a bit before I got my other ingredients for my mix (( Whole oats, a little bit or whole corn, and a smidge of sweet feed, then probably a second grain source)) how much should I feed her a day, considering how much milk she's giving?

I'm honestly not sure how much I should give her. She's a teeny tiny doe, I don't think she'd need 4 cups a day, would she?


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Hmm..I wouldn't give much sweet feed, do you have dry cob available? It's like the same thing, minus the molasses. Then you could add alfalfa, beet pulp, whatever to the cob later on. How much grain, if any, is your doe eating now?

Or you could take the easy way and feed a pelleted milk doe feed


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Btw, COB=corn, oats and barley.around here sweet feed has molasses, while dry cob doesn't. If you can find the dry, that would better for her and you could mix with other grains...


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

She's eating no grain now, just pasture. She's not losing weight or anything, but I'd like to keep her production up.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

lots of interesting ideas to consider here 

I like to add fats through Olive oil,and flax, wheat germ oil as well for coats...these are healthy choices...and yes...when bones need meat..add fat not protein..I dont feed corn at all...it has very little in it to help a goat and too much can cause acidosis....there are healthier choices..its like feeding your kids coco puff or oatmeal...both fuel the body but the oat meal offers more naturally...: )


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Welp, update tiime. 

Tea's moved up to producing 12 cups of milk a day. I give her six ounces of unsweetened feed every time I milk her. She also got wormed, so she's doing well.

The twins have been disbudded through a paste method. I'm pretty sure it worked on the doeling. The buckling.. it's hard to say.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

glad she is doing better for you!!


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Goat kids are obnoxious when it comes to feeding time. x.x And I'm having issues letting them outside. I want them to spend some time outside with momma to learn how to be goats and get some fresh air. Tea's still perfectly happy to visit her babies and let them nurse. 

Originally I  milked her out, fed them, and then let them out. However despite being fed to the brim they would still chase and hound down her udder. 

So I tried feeding them more. Until they wouldn't drink from the bottle anymore. I thought, for sure, they wouldn't try it this time. But again. They were ruthless. Head butting and headbutting and pulling and being absolute BRATS with her. 

So I thought, alright. Maybe I'll let them drink from her and then milk what was left. Tea's putting out about four cups per milking, they each drink about one cup. That should work, right? I come out five minutes later, Tea's udder is empty and the babies have to be PAINFULLY full but they are still hounding at her. They got taken away and didn't eat again that night since they'd drank their full days worth. 

Even Tea's gotten to the point where she'd annoyed with them. When I let them out they simply spend the entire time chasing her around as she walks away from them. Her teats getting rough and I KNOW she's getting sore because she's become a bit of a difficult milker. 

The babies need to go outside to nibble grass and dirt, but Tea's at the end of her rope and I'M at the end of mine. Should I tie a towel around her and keep her udder up and hidden? Or are the babies just going to have to not get mommy time anymore?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Bottle babies don't learn to limit themselves. When they're dam fed they have 24 hour access, the doe will start kicking them away when she's sore but they don't hound because they know they can drink more in 10 minutes. You'll have to protect her udder or keep them separated unless you let her raise them.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree with wild hearts...they need to be either/or...they can become very sick with too much milk..if you leave them with mom she will teach them how much they can have...if you choose to bottle raise them...then they need their own yard or you can tape moms teats...had a friend who used a coffee can to cover her does udder lol...not sure to this day how she got tit to stay...


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Well, I guess I solved my problem... Not in the best way, though. 

I went to a flea market with them as part of their leash training, got hounded by some livestock buyer/sellers and pressured into selling them. 150$ for BOTH babies, 75$ each. Wouldn't give me time to think about it and had their friends come in 'Oh I'm impartial, that's a great deal!' 'Nah, they have to be part Pygmy because they've got blue eyes (They aren't. Both mom and dad are Registered Nigerians. We just can't find the papers, but they've got some ear tattooing.)' 'We buy spotted Nubians for 35$ 75 each isn't bad at all!!' 'I paid 40$ for my pygmy buck, not a dollar more!' 'The mom's milking abilities don't matter since you didn't leave her on them. So it doesn't matter if she's giving you half a gallon a day!' 

;__; Now my babies are gone and I have to tell the woman who was SO eager to buy just the doeling for 150$ that I don't have them anymore. I'm Autistic and simply can't stand the pressure of being hounded like that.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

wow..i'm so sorry...thats wrong that someone would badger you into selling when you were not ready...
also, they dont know what they are talking about... only nigerian can have blue eyes...pygmy can not..


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

They weren't even two weeks old. 

I don't even have any pictures of the Doeling besides what was taken at her birth.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I wonder if someone else might be able to find them and get them back for you? If you know someone who's good at dealing with jerks like that.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I wouldn't have the money to buy them back. You KNOW they'll ask more than they paid.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

at least at 2 weeks old you didnt have a tons of money in them...its so sad folks will take advantage of you...I make jewelry for my own entertainment and decided to try to sell some of my stuff...had a lady who wanted two necklaces..she showed her husband then stepped aside so he could go to work on me...wanted to know how much..I told him...he said if he bought two what would I take...I told him the same..he kept on and on for any price break...I gave him a $5 break just to get him off my table lol after word I thought I will never do it again...I will just stand my ground and ask them to move on before I allow someone to badger me..it can be very hard lesson to learn, but people like that are all over..their goal in life is to get it for free or cheap no matter what....Know what you want for your items or goats before any one asks...and stay firm...thats my motto!!


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Yeah. I actually had no money in them. And their mom was only 75, so I did *technically* make a profit.. however the fact still stands that I had to break the news to a very sad lady that I didn't have a goat baby for her. *sighs*


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yes..that is hard


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I miss them. ;n; 

Now I only have one goat. Thankfully she seems to be just fine on her own (she's always been a loner.) so for a little bit I'll be okay. 

I may go to the man I bought her from and buy a couple more goats.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

getting her a buddy would be good...new goats mend the heart too : )


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Yeah, but unfortunately my bank is broke and there isn't much of a 'new goat' fund. 

Though the seller who sold me Tea has a couple more goats for sale.. Maybe he'd hold them for me since he likes me so much. xD


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Alright, so Tea's moved up to pumping about about 3/4ths a gallon a day.

It all still tastes slightly.. off. Not 'goaty' not rancid, just a bit bitter. It should be sweeter. 

Should I start giving her sweet feed to sweeten it up? Or maybe fruits? Or... put sugar in her water?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Various foods can make the milk taste "off." Molasses can apparently have that effect - mine have gotten sweeter since I switched them to alfalfa-based pellets, although it's also possible they were eating something in the pasture to cause it.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Is there anything I can DO with the bitter milk? Would it be good for, like, cheese? 

It's pretty good for cooking and baking, so far.. Just not drinking.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if you have access to pine trees..feed her some branches ..Pine will clean up the milk...if she grazes on a lot of weeds..this will make the milk bitter..along with certain grains ect...the pine needles will help....

when making cheese..any off flavor, even a tiny hint will be magnified in the cheese...when we have a off milk taste..I use for soap : )or feed thepig which she loves..


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Hm, I'll try the pine. I had one day when the milk didn't have any flavor, so I'd hoped I'd have sweet milk by now. Close but no cigar. I'll give her a pine branch, hopefully she'll eat it. 

I guess I could save it for when I make lotion.. Still gathering up the cash to buy the supplies, though. Mostly I've just been giving it back to her, or the dogs, or the chickens.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yep will make good lotion, soap, good for the animals...


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

she's going to kill me, I swear.. She's refusing to drink water now.. Because she only wants to drink her own milk. 

And it has to be warm. No cold stuff. 

I've gotten by on mixing about 40/60 milk to water, but she didn't want it until I milked a little more into the pan. I'm.. not sure how to remedy this.. I mean, she's GOT to stay hydrated.. 

also I gave her some pine.. How long until it works and how often do I give it to her?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

If she's not sick, she'll drink when she gets thirsty enough.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

So I milked her today, and tried her milk.. I really HATE warm milk but this.. had a pretty NICE taste to it. A real sweetness in it that I haven't taste before. A small bit of bitter aftertaste, but nothing that's not normal to warm milk for me.


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