# Youth show frustrations



## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Warning....venting on a controversial subject!

In regards to youth market goat shows, whether it be County fair, state fair, or a jackpot.....

It is the current industry standard to drive your market goats. As a wether type boer goat breeder, I fully encourage, teach, and expect youth who buy my goats to drive them at the show. There are several reasons for this. First, when done correctly, the goat looks best while driving. Thier top line levels, thier muscle flexes, their muscle shows definition, shape, and expression. They also have a hard fresh touch when handled by the judge.

Driving a goat is not an easy task. It requires hours of training both goat and showman. You must seek the knowledge from those who have learned and put forth the effort to teach yourself and your goat. It is hard work! I commend those who have made the effort and took the time to learn. 

Here's where I have an issue....USBGA & ABGA judges who show up to these youth shows and announce, "We are going to level the playing field today, and no one will be allowed to drive thier goat today".

First off, why are the kids who have worked thier butts off training thier goats to drive being punished? Is not right! A child should be able to just go out there and show thier goat, however they've trained it, and it's the judges job to sort the animals as they are presented. I question the ability of any judge who can not do so. Especially when I've seen that particular judge "try" himself to drive his breeding does at a sanctioned show while the judge was handling thier animal. They know it's not easy, and instead of giving credit to youth who have learned, they punish them instead. 

Second, this is a market show, not a breeding show. I would never go to a USBGA or ABGA show and tell you all that you had to drive your goats. Why is it ok for them to tell the wether industry how they can show thier goats? Just because you end up with wethers in your kid crop, does not mean you're a wether goat producer. Is it not true that the majority of the USBGA & ABGA breeders are breeding for breeding stock. Wethers are just (for lack of words) an unwanted product. Most of you pray for does or the occasional Buck kid. True? 

Third and final, anyone judging a youth show should encourage those youth to learn and continue to grow through thier show career, regardless of what level thier at or what side of the industry they have chosen. I'm tired of these judges with an agenda standing up there putting down the wether goat industry and the kids who are involved in it. There is never a time in a youth show that it is ok to openly ridicule and embarrass a child in the showering! Especially over the microphone! If you don't like it, then don't judge market shows!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I would direst your concerns to ABGA.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

nancy d said:


> I would direst your concerns to ABGA.


That's probably a good idea.


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## NWIndianaBoers (Mar 18, 2013)

Well being someone that isn't on that(wether) side of things i am for bracing not being allowed. Just because it makes the top feel bigger doesn't mean the top is bigger. Are they bracing when butchered and magically there is more meat there? Of course not. The product is relaxed muscle and all of that can be felt and judged without bracing. If all animals are standing there and he's hands on all of them and picking the best one what's the issue? I could see the argument if he said no bracing and then never put his hands on anything to actually see what's muscle vs fat etc. My cousins show wethers at our local county fair and never brace. Just doesn't seem necessary. 

State fair actually started today and i had a conversation with an abga judge who is asked to judge wethers at times. He said he asks kids not to brace for the same argument i had. Just because the top suddenly feels like it goes on forever doesn't mean it actually does. Muscle is muscle and they can feel what needs to be felt without it bracing. 

Of course i don't expect to change your mind. Just giving my side of it. I actually have been saying and told him abga needs to hold official wether shows and not allow bracing and encourage our fast growth and showing them more like a steer. Even if there's a little fat i bet there's more finished product at the packer on a 4.5 month old one with breeding stock genetics and fast growth than on the wether style genetics going for the tight hide and slow growth. Yes i realize the show world isn't really designed to help the real world. We are just participating in glorified beauty pageants that aren't really even close to the mass produced commercial side of the industry.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Justin I totally agree with you. My nieces never braced and did just fine. I have never been one to promote bracing but since that's the way it's going I told all the kids that bought from me they needed to learn how to brace and practice with their goats. I have no clue how to teach them to do it I didn't show sheep. I would rather have a fast growing kid that can finish out on less feed and time then have a slow growing wether that takes more feed and time. You would think we are trying to promote how to make the most money with your investments. The rules for our fair used to be the kids had to be born after January 1st of that year. Now it just states they must be shown with milk teeth because they need to be born in November to be up to size by the end of july.


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

I would say the vast majority in our area choose not to brace as well, I personally have never cared for it. I agree with NWIndianaBoers and Roger. To me bracing is just an illusion and any knowledgable judge can see past it. I do agree that it takes time, but ultimately the end result should be the same either way and I feel that many of the kids put an enormous amount of effort into their projects. I must be lucky as we have never had an ABGA judge that put down the weather industry.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

The point was not whether anyone agrees with bracing goats, but rather the injustice being done to the youth that do. It is an acceptable way of showing wethers, even in the ABGA rules. My point was that children who choose to brace should not be punished in the showring for doing so,* and they certainly should not be publicly ridiculed! 

Put your personal feelings aside and look at it from the kids perspective. Let's say your child dreams of being an excellent showman. They spend hours training thier does to lead with thier heads up high like a swan. Training them to set feet just perfectly, and that when thier bellies are scratched to keep thier top line up instead of sagging. They are excited to go to fair and compete in showmanship. But when they get there, the judge tells them they can't use the pinch collar they have trained thier doe with and can't put pressure on her head to keep her neck and head up. To keep the playing field even, your child can not scratch thier goats belly or hold thier heads up high, because little Joey has neither the experience,* knowledge,* or desire to learn those techniques. 
After all...keeping a does head up high and her top line level doesn't really make her neck longer or her top better. Never mind that she looks more elegant and beautiful...why would we want that? Why would we want our goats to look thier best in the show ring? Heck, why not just turn them all loose while the "showmen" stand ring side and watch the evaluation take place?

My point is, that the youth are suffering because of these judges personal vendetta. There is no learning, no encouragement, and certainly no skills being developed. And isn't the point of showing to make the goats look thier best?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok I'll jump in and be the black sheep on all this lol please know I do not show and this is actually my sons first time showing out side of peewee and he is only showing 2 doelings. Ok first the wethers, rather we like it or not this is a MEAT goat, I know a lot of breeders, myself included who want to breed just breeding stock but really these should t be pretty animals these should be meat goats. It's the same with every meat animal out there, there seems to be two different worlds the meat and the show and what does well in one doesn't in the other......this is kinda a pet peeve of mine lol (ok rant over) now for the bracing, again don't show and maybe I'm wrong but I don't see anything different from bracing a wether to show off his assets the same as I see nothing wrong with shaving and fitting a doe to show off her assets. I see what Justin is saying about bracing live and what it will be butchered out as but If we think on that same level and again dealing with a meat animal, if you clip a doe to look like she has this big wide chest and pig butt that doesn't mean she will butcher out having that or even throw kids that would be butchered out having that. As for your actual rant about kids, or anyone showing up at a show to show and spending hours practicing to do so one way then tell them on the spot no no we want it that way is wrong. They should have told people well in advanced this is how it is going to be


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

BCG said:


> The point was not whether anyone agrees with bracing goats, but rather the injustice being done to the youth that do. It is an acceptable way of showing wethers, even in the ABGA rules. My point was that children who choose to brace should not be punished in the showring for doing so,* and they certainly should not be publicly ridiculed!
> If the children are placing lower due to bracing, then I completely agree that it is a problem. Every showman has their preferences and to each their own. If the ABGA says it is acceptable, then it is what it is. I'm not putting down anyone that chooses to do this. I see no problem with a judge making suggestions or giving constructive criticism, but public ridicule is a whole nother issue. If you feel that a judge is being unprofessional it is an ABGA issue.
> 
> My point is, that the youth are suffering because of these judges personal vendetta. There is no learning, no encouragement, and certainly no skills being developed. And isn't the point of showing to make the goats look thier best?


I agree with you that this is an issue. In my opinion a youth show should make learning and encouragement a priority. Are you saying this is a specific judge or all of them? I hate that this is an issue for the youth because I would hope they had a good experience that makes them want to continue.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

goatnutty said:


> I agree with you that this is an issue. In my opinion a youth show should make learning and encouragement a priority. Are you saying this is a specific judge or all of them? I hate that this is an issue for the youth because I would hope they had a good experience that makes them want to continue.


It's a handful of judges that seem to circulate our area quite frequently. It's time to get some new blood in the judging seat in our area. Maybe a new perspective would do the industry around here some good.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

What is driving/bracing? Various visions are popping up in my mind of what they are, and I'm sure my mind is playing tricks on me!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Bracing is when you teach your goat to press against you to tighten his muscles and make his rear muscles pop.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Oh, that's kind of odd, but I guess it's no different than dairy people poking the goats back to make the topline look more level.

So, driving is another name for bracing?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm not sure what driving is, I only know about bracing because I used to show sheep :lol:


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Technically driving is the acceptable abga form of what everyone refers to as "bracing" with all 4 feet on the ground as in the pic goathiker shared. By definition, bracing is when you hold the goats front feet off the ground to get it to push forward.


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

BCG said:


> Technically driving is the acceptable abga form of what everyone refers to as "bracing" with all 4 feet on the ground as in the pic goathiker shared. By definition, bracing is when you hold the goats front feet off the ground to get it to push forward.


I didn't realize that there was a different term. That's the part that always bothered me was when their feet were off the ground. Always looked so darn uncomfortable.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Aw, poor goats


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Oh I had no idea either that driving and bracing were the same.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I wish there was one way for driving/bracing and that was that. Here everyone does it differently and you never really know what a judge prefers. There are kids that lift the front end off the ground, some of those kids are rough, and I've seen them do things behind the judges back, yet those kids always get placed first or high in their class. It's aggravating to see that kind of behavior 

All judges here encourage bracing, so I am not sure how I'd feel if a judge said no bracing. Although again, now and then they are picky. There have been times my kids brace their goats with front feet on their feet, judges like it or they don't and you just don't know until your in the ring sometimes. I think no matter what, a goats feet should be on the ground at all times.

Of course my biggest issue with showing this year is the 'rent a goat' issue. It's one thing to do this, but to brag about it? it's very frustrating! Especially when you have 5-6 goats and only 1 of those actually belong to you, the others are borrowed/rented. You brag about it, but say how much you don't like goats, how much you like sheep, and how much $$ you spend on sheep, etc. I know this person probably doesn't realize how awful it makes them sound to kids who actually buy, raise and breed their own projects and put everything into them...

Always something isn't it? But, thankfully the good outweighs the bad.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I wish there was one way for driving/bracing and that was that. Here everyone does it differently and you never really know what a judge prefers. There are kids that lift the front end off the ground, some of those kids are rough, and I've seen them do things behind the judges back, yet those kids always get placed first or high in their class. It's aggravating to see that kind of behavior 

All judges here encourage bracing, so I am not sure how I'd feel if a judge said no bracing. Although again, now and then they are picky. There have been times my kids brace their goats with front feet on their feet, judges like it or they don't and you just don't know until your in the ring sometimes. I think no matter what, a goats feet should be on the ground at all times.

Of course my biggest issue with showing this year is the 'rent a goat' issue. It's one thing to do this, but to brag about it? it's very frustrating! Especially when you have 5-6 goats and only 1 of those actually belong to you, the others are borrowed/rented. You brag about it, but say how much you don't like goats, how much you like sheep, and how much $$ you spend on sheep, etc. I know this person probably doesn't realize how awful it makes them sound to kids who actually buy, raise and breed their own projects and put everything into them...

Always something isn't it? But, thankfully the good outweighs the bad.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

I just wish that judges would respect the fact that the kids have worked hard to train thier goats and allow them to showcase what they've been working so hard on. I totally understand if it's not thier preference and they use kids to win that show off the goat, but at least give them a chance. I think it's wrong to ask anyone to change thier style in the ring unless it's a show rule. Either you like it or you don't, but it's not right to force your opinion on others.


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