# Johnes ELISA test accuracy..?



## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Hello all,

I'm curious about the accuracy of the Johnes ELISA test (for blood/serum). I test through WADDL and have had a couple of false positives in the past. A doe just came up positive, so I'm stressing out. The doe has NEVER been in any contact with a Johnes positive goat, all new goats are tested before being introduced to the herd, and every other goat on the property came up negative on this same test as well as one in October. Our shows are incredibly clean, and we have changed a few rules there to prevent the spread of Johnes between herds. I don't breed to outside bucks or does, and only buy from clean herds. I heard that younger goats may get more false positives..? She's 13 months old, so this was her first test; she's totally healthy - shiny, fat, normal poops, but I know infected goats can seem healthy before showing symptoms. Her sire and dam are on the property, and both turned up negative. I'm sending in a fecal today for PCR, and will redo the blood test, but I'm curious about what the rate of false positives is for the blood test.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

WADDL is good. Never had a false test result through them. Younger animals are sometimes harder to get correct results from and 13 months is a little early for Johnes test.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Retest with a different lab. Do a fecal test as well. Go from there. Hopefully the other tests will come back negative.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

All of our bucks came up with a reading, all but one were still considered negative, but it seems weird to me that ALL of my bucks had a reading so we are retesting and sending to Wisconsin. One did come up as inconclusive which means suspect and its the buck we just got in December. If you are doing fecals I would just do it on the goats that had a reading. The fecals will not show up positive unless that goat is shedding AT THAT TIME. Also keep in mind there can be a false negative. Our vet will not draw blood for testing on any goats under 18 months because it is easier to have a false positive. Let us know the results when you get them. Oh and if you can I would isolate that goat.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Unlike some breeders, I am willing to share my results. If it is a true positive, you are not alone. Many, many breeders out here in the Midwest have gotten positives recently. We just had a 9 year old doe test positive! The herd she came from had Johnes years ago and it took 9 years for it to show up in this doe! We are going to start testing every 2 months and any goat with a reading will also have fecals done. Of course any positives, or suspects will be isolated immediately and if it is a true positive... Well you know what will have to be done unfortunately. I do not want to risk this disease spreading through my herd so we are going to take the right steps to keep it contained.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

I separated her right away, and put her with her dam, who's retired from showing and breeding. Does anyone know if WADDL can give percentages, other than negative/positive? Also, the PCR will only show up positive if she's shedding at the _time_, correct? Or is that just the culture? I've never had to deal with this before, and it's just so weird that she came up positive. The vet hasn't gotten back to me yet, so I'm going to leave another message with him to see if he can come draw more blood. I'll be sending another sample to WADDL and one to Wisconsin for the blood test.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

janecb said:


> I separated her right away, and put her with her dam, who's retired from showing and breeding. Does anyone know if WADDL can give percentages, other than negative/positive? Also, the PCR will only show up positive if she's shedding at the _time_, correct? Or is that just the culture? I've never had to deal with this before, and it's just so weird that she came up positive. The vet hasn't gotten back to me yet, so I'm going to leave another message with him to see if he can come draw more blood. I'll be sending another sample to WADDL and one to Wisconsin for the blood test.


The blood shows the amount of antibodies so she does not have to be shedding to be positive. She would have to be shedding for it to come up in the fecals. If you have any questions I would suggest talking to a friend of ours, Ashlee Gerner-Kay. She had a positive come up last year and has been helping us and many others breeders. She is very knowledgeable about it.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Here is her story she posted on Facebook... "Ohio Saturday April 26th 4:30 pm. I sit here now with tears pouring down my face sometimes so many I have to stop writing because I can't see what I am doing. The last two months going by with out seeming to be able to catch my breath. I have a large barn loft and decided to go up there where I have started planting some flats with seeds to start new life, while I wait for one to end...waiting....thinking and waiting..... There it is the crack of a gun shot and I know my innocent goat is dead. I can't see the flats and dirt through my tears as I sob. I walk to the loft window and look down in my pastures at my goats enjoying the sun with tears rolling down my face and can not help think what could I have done to prevent this and I say to my self you did your best but Johne's disease does not care if you test your goats annually, that you sanitize and keep your barn clean, it did not care that I bought only from tested negative herds or reputable breeders. It does not care if you win grand champion or national champion. It does not matter that the goat tested negative on it last test. It did not matter that the goat was plump and healthy the day you put him down you could have taken him to the show ring to win a rosette. Nor that the goat is only 10 months old. 







January 2014 I send in 29 fecals for my annual testing. 10 days prior to my getting the test results a 23 months old starts scouring I think nothing of it she looks healthy she probably needs coccidiosis treatment or over indulged on dinner the night before. SEVEN days later I get it to stop. She has gone from a normal healthy goat to under weight in a week, 3 days later I get my test results and she is emaciated. 28 negative one positive. She is put down the next morning and I cry as my heart breaks for that sweet tail wagging doe that was bottle raised.







April 2014- my vet teaches me how to draw blood so that I can test blood/serum whenever I want at half the cost through Wisconsin. I have a long road of extensive expensive testing ahead of me. 29 fecals $900. Blood test through my vet $15 each. Blood through Wisconsin including equipment and shipping $7 each. 







Mid April I draw blood on 22 goats including goats under one year and one fecal.







April 23rd I get my blood/serum results ALL negative. 21 goats at 0.00 1 10 month old goat 0.08 which is still negative.







April 24th I get that 10 month olds fecal results-positive.....but wait a minute he just tested negative on his blood test taken the same day and don't most say to test starting around 18 months? This goat looks healthy and I could show him, sell him, use him for breeding etc and who would know? But of course I would never do that. Not only is he positive but he is shedding the paratuberculosis in his feces and possibly his semen. 







So who's fault is this? No ones, this disease has been around for longer than any of us. It is not my fault, I did and will keep doing the best by my animals. It is not the breeders they did not know. I know I am not alone as I know many who have been honest about it, which is the only way to be. 







I just would like to spare many the heartbreak that those of us who have lost one or more animals to Johne's Disease. Educate yourselves. I constantly hear people say "all my goats look plump and healthy and we have never had a problem nor have the people we purchase from" with out testing I may have thought that doe died from several other causes since diarrhea is not usually a symptom in goats. Who knows how long the other would have shed and further damaged my herd before I caught it, luckily the last few weeks he has been penned alone and I will sadly never have any kids from him. 







Do not bother to hunt the herd book as these goats never got put in my name and have been removed from my website in order to give others time to notify those they need to. 







Over the lasts couple months I have made permanent changes to the way I will be doing herd management, sanitizing, testing, and more to hopefully prevent/contain this the best I can. I thank Elaine N. Krieg for her endless hours on the phone with me educating and comforting. I am very grateful for your knowledge and encouragement. I thank the University of Wisconsin who had stated that their has been a major increase of positive PYGMY goat results. Their knowledge and sympathy is outstanding. They urge any who have questions to contact them and I am willing to talk privately with any who have concerns or deposits with me ( I have notified most of you but a few I have not got to and will refund any deposits if you wish)Their website has so much helpful information. ALSO thank you to my loyal friends and buyers who have stood by me with love and encouragement.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Thank you 

And really quickly, for the Wisconsin test, is the vet's signature required? I can get it, but I usually don't have my vet sign the application.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

janecb said:


> Thank you
> 
> And really quickly, for the Wisconsin test, is the vet's signature required? I can get it, but I usually don't have my vet sign the application.


No it is not required, just leave that part blank.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Another question - 

If the PCR test comes back negative, would it be safe to assume she's clean? I know making assumptions with Johnes is super dangerous, but NONE of my other goats tested positive, and they haven't left the property or had any new introductions since mid October, when the last round of testing was (all were negative then, except for her, as she was under a year so we I didn't get her tested).


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

janecb said:


> Another question -
> 
> If the PCR test comes back negative, would it be safe to assume she's clean? I know making assumptions with Johnes is super dangerous, but NONE of my other goats tested positive, and they haven't left the property or had any new introductions since mid October, when the last round of testing was.


I would say after at least 2 negative test you should have an idea of where she stands.


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## Zzpygmies (Oct 31, 2014)

Im sorry your going through this! I would be just as stressed/ confused and devastated! 

I know of a couple big breeders in our area that have recently had johnes positive goats. Where did the goat that you got back in October come from? Is it possible that goat brought johnes , say from feces in the hooves?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It is better to do the fecal test for johnes.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

ksalvagno said:


> It is better to do the fecal test for johnes.


Fecals are not to be used as the main testing... Fecals will only show up IF THE GOAT IS SHEDDING AT THE TIME. By then it has already contaminated the land and has exposed the other goats in the herd to it. The Elisa test is the way to go and then send out fecals if you get a suspect or positive.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

The goats I brought in weren't from NPGA breeders; one was a boer, the other a nubian, both from tested herds, and they were retested and given a health check by the vet before being introduced to the entire herd. And I've heard about the Johnes in our area as well... it's why I'm so worried about her being positive.

WADDL runs PCR tests right when they get the sample, correct? If they do, I should be able to call for results on Tuesday and go from there. The doe's been living with my bottle baby buck, and I'm anxious to get him out of that situation. I left to go catch the does dam, as she's retired and the two are deeply bonded, but the little guy snuck in, and I didn't want to risk him spreading it if the doe had it. Luckily, she isn't in heat, and the buck is very small/lacks an interest in does.

I'm also working on getting the vet out to draw blood. Luckily, I have a _long_ list of things for him to do while he's here, so it won't just be him driving all the way out here to draw blood from one goat. Hopefully, he'll be able to come out on Wednesday, by which point I should have her fecal results. Assuming she turns up negative on the fecal, she'll be quarantined with her dam in a different pen until her second blood test results return. This whole situation just feels icky.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Prayers for a negative result! Johnes seems to be an epidemic in Pygmies right now... I don't know if it's because there is an increase of breeders actually testing for it or if it is just spreading like wildfire, but I think that no matter what you do it can unfortunately somehow sneak its way into your herd.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

I know :/

I'm still waiting on the vet to get back to me. He's a great guy, but so unorganized. Sometimes he gets back in an hour, and sometimes its WEEKS. I've left three messages so far, and if he doesn't respond by tomorrow, I'm calling his emergency service to talk directly to him. I feel bad about it, but with the anxiety I've been building up over this, it certainly _feels_ like an emergency.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

janecb said:


> I know :/
> 
> I'm still waiting on the vet to get back to me. He's a great guy, but so unorganized. Sometimes he gets back in an hour, and sometimes its WEEKS. I've left three messages so far, and if he doesn't respond by tomorrow, I'm calling his emergency service to talk directly to him. I feel bad about it, but with the anxiety I've been building up over this, it certainly _feels_ like an emergency.


Trust me, I know how that feels! I was anxiously waiting for that phone call from the vet to find out the rest of our results in December. It's almost time for us to test again and I'm so anxious to find out the new results... Hopefully nothing new shows up, but you never know and I can only think about the breeders around here that have put down SO MANY goats... It's really scary.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

I've been super careful about bringing in new goats, which is why this random positive confuses and worries me. I'm fairly certain it's a false positive, but until I know for sure, I have to treat it like it's a true one. The poor doe's been standing at the fence of the quarantine pen calling to her dam and totally ignoring the little guy I put in with her to keep her company. A couple of years ago, there was a false positive in the herd, a doe around the same age and build as the current one, which was why she tested positive. I keep thinking back to that doe for reassurance; she was totally fine, and had some gorgeous kids. But even so, it's so stressful. My fingers are crossed for your tests to come back negative.. this isn't fun.


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## Zzpygmies (Oct 31, 2014)

We are all crossing our fingers for you!!


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

The vet got back to me and is coming out tomorrow to draw blood! Finally some good news!


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

janecb said:


> The vet got back to me and is coming out tomorrow to draw blood! Finally some good news!


Yeah! now prayers for a negative result!


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

PCR came back not detected/negative, and I sent the blood samples today. I should know by next Thursday if she's a positive-positive, or just a false. I've sent enough samples to WADDL to have an account, which is awesome; I get the results immediately after the tests are run. My little buck got to move back in with the nursing momma's, though, so that's a ton of pressure off my chest from worrying she was shedding. I got to chase down the nubian who is now out there yelling her head off for her foster-foster mother.


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## Zzpygmies (Oct 31, 2014)

Glad to hear good news so far!! Fingers crossed the good news keeps coming


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

janecb said:


> PCR came back not detected/negative, and I sent the blood samples today. I should know by next Thursday if she's a positive-positive, or just a false. I've sent enough samples to WADDL to have an account, which is awesome; I get the results immediately after the tests are run. My little buck got to move back in with the nursing momma's, though, so that's a ton of pressure off my chest from worrying she was shedding. I got to chase down the nubian who is now out there yelling her head off for her foster-foster mother.


Yay! ☺


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Test came back again... positive. I called the vet and am expecting a response any minute. Hopefully, he can come tomorrow to put her down - tonight would even work. I can't believe this. I was out there this morning before school, certain she would come back negative. All I can figure is that she picked it up at a show. At least she wasn't shedding, but her nubian buddy will be put down as well. She was removed from the herd the minute her first blood test result came back positive, and tested for shedding, which she wasn't. I will be retesting the entire herd. I'm losing a promising show doe, as well as two does with fantastic personalities and character. It just goes to show that no matter what you do to prevent this disease from entering your herd, it can still sneak in. My only comfort is she wasn't shedding and that she won't be miserable


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Oh no! I'm so sorry!


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

There are a lot of large breeders in our area who have a history of johnes in their herds, who may have brought goats shedding to a show. It's a scary thought, but most people seem to pretend johnes isn't a problem while in reality it is. I hate feeling like my goats have it, having seen a goat die from it before. I can only hope I caught it fast enough. The vet will be out tomorrow to euthanize.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

It's a scary thought... sad part is some breeders don't test at all, so they have no clue...You did the right thing! Unfortunately our doe was shedding by the time we found it, we did have her isolated for quite some time because she didn't look right. We had her isolated til the vet could come out and check her out, she was displaying all signs of Johnes, the weight loss, the scours had started, she was hunched up shivering. I knew something was wrong and my first thought was Johnes. My biggest fear. The vet did not think it was Johnes at first, so he took blood from her to get tested and check for parasites and her liver and kidney functions. Both the were good, but the Johnes came back POSITIVE. When I heard that news it was like my world was falling apart. All I could think of is my beautiful herd I have come to build up in the past two years. I had just gotten into goats, now I have to start over? Luckily there were no more positives on the test results, but I am keeping an eye out and testing every 2 months, as soon as this weather out here breaks (it's -40 with wind chill right now) were going to have the vet draw blood again. This spring I am going to learn how to draw the blood so I can send it out myself, it is so much simpler. Prayers to you that no more positives show up!!


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Thank you so much, and I hope your results are all negative. 

It's awful; I know that I, as a responsible breeder and owner, have to put her down to prevent the spread of the disease, even though she looks healthy, and is acting healthy. She's never even had a cold, and now Johnes? It's just hard, since I was there when she was born, and have bonded with her for her whole life. Her dam has been crying at the fence, along with her 'best friends' in the herd. I have relative confidence that I caught it quickly enough, but its better to be safe than sorry.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

I'm so sorry she came back positive.:sad: I know it's horrible to have to put her down, but, as you know, you will be preventing the spread of this to others. 

I read that the ELIZA can sometimes give false positives and AGID is less likely to. (CL issue.) But I also read that there is a version of the ELIZA that is more accurate. Is that the one that WADDL uses? 

Again, so sorry for your loss.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

glndg said:


> I'm so sorry she came back positive.:sad: I know it's horrible to have to put her down, but, as you know, you will be preventing the spread of this to others.
> 
> I read that the ELIZA can sometimes give false positives and AGID is less likely to. (CL issue.) But I also read that there is a version of the ELIZA that is more accurate. Is that the one that WADDL uses?
> 
> Again, so sorry for your loss.


I'm not sure if that is the Elisa test WADDL uses, but I know I only trust WADDL and Wisconsin because I have heard of way too many false positives at other testing centers. Also keep in mind there can be false negatives... Best to test at least twice a year so you have an idea of where your herd stands. It is estimated that 90% of goat herds have or have had Johnes.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Thank you. 

The vet came by to put her down, along with her companion, and an older doe who could no longer walk. I held it together, but it wasn't a good day. The goat pen feels empty now


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

So very sorry.:tears::sigh:


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

You did the right thing! So sorry this happened to you


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm so sorry your having to go through this. May I ask how you disposed of their bodies? Is it ok the bury a Johnes positive goat? I'm not trying to be insensitive. I was just wondering if there is any specific protocol for handling the remains. Again I'm so sorry you had to put her and her friend down. It's never easy saying goodbye.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

LadySecret said:


> I'm so sorry your having to go through this. May I ask how you disposed of their bodies? Is it ok the bury a Johnes positive goat? I'm not trying to be insensitive. I was just wondering if there is any specific protocol for handling the remains. Again I'm so sorry you had to put her and her friend down. It's never easy saying goodbye.


We buried ours far away from where our goats are. Just make sure it isn't around any water sources as it can get into your water source and contaminate other goats.


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

Ours are going to a special disposal space. My vet said they could be buried 100 ft from a creek or a well. I believe they have to be buried a certain depth as well, but again, I will be taking them to a special livestock body disposal place.


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## Zzpygmies (Oct 31, 2014)

I'm so sorry for your loss, but I have so much respect for you doing the right thing. It's not always easy, but it's part of being a responsible and reliable goat owner/ breeder..


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

It's about the experience; I want to have a good time raising goats, but I want others to as well. Ethically, while it may be painful for me, it is my responsibility to put potential Johne's goats down, so that others can go to shows and buy goats without fear of this disease spreading to their herds as well. I only wish other breeders would do this as well... raising goats isn't always about winning... we need to think about what we're teaching young(er) people about raising goats and doing the right thing, even if its hard...


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

janecb said:


> It's about the experience; I want to have a good time raising goats, but I want others to as well. Ethically, while it may be painful for me, it is my responsibility to put potential Johne's goats down, so that others can go to shows and buy goats without fear of this disease spreading to their herds as well. I only wish other breeders would do this as well... raising goats isn't always about winning... we need to think about what we're teaching young(er) people about raising goats and doing the right thing, even if its hard...


I know how you feel :/ I agree more breeders need to become more aware of this disease and take action, or it's just going to keep spreading... The only way to stop it is to catch it before the goat starts shedding, like you did. That goat could have lived years without you knowing she had Johnes if you wouldn't have tested... I wish all breeders took action instead of just going off of the mentality of "well my goats are plump so I must not have Johnes"


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Thank you. My heart breaks for you. But thank you for doing the right thing.


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