# Joint Ill or something else?



## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I have a goat kid (wether) that was born April 9th, 2017. He was a bottle baby from birth. I am not sure how much colostrum he received. We suckled him a bit shortly after birth for a little while so I'm sure he got some colostrum, just no idea how much. I don't recall his navel ever being "infected" looking but that being said I don't think his umbilical cord was ever dipped and he was living with bum lambs in a not-so-clean building (you deal with what you have, please don't judge us). He's never really has "thrived" but when I saw him yesterday (after not seeing him for about 2 months) I noticed his "not thriving well" is now in addition to joint swelling in his hocks, back right hip, and possibly his right front knee although that one also is harder feeling whereas the other joints are soft and at least a little warm. He has a good appetite and gets around pretty well considering he must be in at least some pain. I'm not sure how long the swelling has been present, as I mentioned I hadn't been around him the past couple of months. I have no idea about a fever as well (past or present). He is definitely underweight as well as not having much for muscling...I'd say his siblings and the other kids born at the same time are twice, or maybe more, his size. I was researching before I brought him home with me as I have my own goats well being to consider and after researching for a few hours straight before coming home I ruled out a contagious disease. They have other goats (adults & kids) as well as sheep and other livestock and animals in the immediate area and in contact with him and none of them appear sick either. He also does not appear to have diarrhea. I was initially a little concerned it might be Johnes but have since ruled that out. Joint Ill seems to be the best fit for him. I'm wondering about treatment for Joint Ill? Quite honestly, as sweet as this little guy is, he's not worth it financially to take him to the vet for a $65 exam + medication. I feel confident enough that it is indeed Joint Ill that I should be able to treat myself if I can get my hands on the appropriate medication(s) and proper dosage, treatment, etc so I don't do it "wrong". From what I've read the outlook isn't "great" but it may be worth a shot if it isn't too expensive. I'd love if someone could help "diagnose" him and offer the proper treatment, especially if you've done it before! I know I stumbled across a couple of posts (here I think?) that talked about how to treat Joint Ill so if someone could help me re-find those that would be great too! I attached some pictures of the goat kid in question. Thank you!!View media item 2285View media item 2284View media item 2283View media item 2282View media item 2281View media item 2280


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

What I really need to know is what the outlook is considering the stage we're at. If there's a decent chance of a good outcome I can run into town and pick up a bottle of LA-200 today and start treatment. From what I've read it looks like LA-200 (Oxcytetracycline) is the "best" thing I can get without going to a vet. Otherwise, we'll just give him some more love and say our good-byes. Any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks again!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If you think it may be infection, starting an antibiotic will be wise. LA200 burns, but does cure many things, first get a temp. 

Joint ill is up to 2 months, if he is 3 months old it may not be joint ill. But I do see swelling where you show it.

Get a fecal on him for worms and cocci.

Is his naval swollen, hot?

It may be injury? Or do you have thorns or some other plants the goat may of gotten into?

Do you have out free choice loose salt and minerals?


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I went ahead and got the LA-200 when I was in town this morning and gave him his first shot before seeing your message. I gave him 1.5 cc IM as he weighed in at 31.4 pounds. It was hard finding enough muscle but I *think* we did good with the location (rear right back of leg). I do not have a thermometer and didn't even think to get one when I picked up the LA-200. A thermometer is one of those things I should have on hand though!
I have no idea how long he has had the joint swelling as I hadn't seen him in about 2 months. And nobody else seemed to have noticed the joint swelling until I said something 
I don't believe he has a swollen navel or ever has for that matter, but I've read that doesn't mean it's not joint ill as bacteria can still travel up the umbilical cord and never have the outward appearance of an "infection". I've also read there are other ways joint ill can develop too, it is not always as a result of "navel ill"...thus my best conclusion of joint ill...but alas I am new to goats so that's why I posted here 
I probably should do a fecal, however, at this time I'm going to do the LA-200 and go from there. If he makes it through that treatment and is doing better we will likely move on to doing a fecal. It is certainly not out of the realm of possibility that he is sick with something else that may need addressed. I just can't justify spending too much money on him as all he'll ever be is a pet, weed eater, or maybe food for someone...sad but true.
I've ruled out injury on at least his back end. His front knee I suppose could maybe be from an injury but I've also read that ankylosis(sp?) can be a result of joint ill so I am wondering if that is maybe what has happened in his knee.
Where he was living I don't think feed (thorns, etc) would have been an issue. I don't believe he has had access to loose mineral or salt. Now that he is here I can put some out especially for him as he is not in with the rest of the goats that do have access to free choice loose mineral and salt.
I think I answered all the questions you had  Thanks for your input with this, it is greatly appreciated!!


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

If he was in with lambs, and getting feed and minerals made for sheep, he may be very deficient in copper. I have a doe I sold as a weanling and got back as a yearling after the new owners did not take care of her. She was extremely copper deficient to where it caused swelling and disfigurement in her leg joints. She was too old to straighten out the joints, so they are still crooked but she is healthy now, though she does have bouts where her front joints hurt and she walks on her knees. She is going to have to be PTS at some point of they get much worse.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I guess Copper Deficiency is something I should investigate further! I made an assumption that since the other goats are fine that it shouldn't be copper deficiency. However, they were dam raised and he was bottle raised. He has mostly been penned up with the lambs/sheep eating the same stuff they are eating (creep feed, different types of hay, some green grass, and maybe some weeds and tree leaves) and the others have been roaming the yard getting a variety of feed options. I'm not sure we were feeding him the milk replacer at the appropriate ratios either :S I know he was always/almost always receiving at least some goat milk when he was on a bottle. Like I said, he has never really "thrived" and we all made the assumption that it was just because he was a bottle baby...so we really don't know for sure how long he's been "sick" or what he's been fighting and so on  It has been one of those "you live you learn" kind of situations. If we have a bottle baby next time we'll for sure do better! Thank you for your input!! I'll get to looking into Copper Deficiency some more! 

I can't imagine treating for both Copper Deficiency and Joint Ill will be a problem will it? If anyone has input on that I'd certainly appreciate it  Thanks!


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

I don't think giving copper and antibiotics would hurt at all. I doubt they would interfere with each other. Someone more knowledgeable should come in eventually and please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

You can get $10 fecal tests by mailing a sample to www.midamericaagresearch.net. He looks skinny. Do you give him some kind of goat feed mix? Calf Manna added to the goat feed might help, & it's good to give some kind of probiotics when they've had antibiotics.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Thank you for the lead on fecal tests! That is cheaper than what I can get them done locally! He is skinny, there is no doubt about that! He doesn't have much for muscle mass or fat at all  I just brought him home Wednesday to see what I can do for him. I've been giving him some sweet chop and alfalfa pellets, letting him free range graze here as much as possible (away from the other goats), and I just set out free choice salt and goat mineral (all loose) for him yesterday. Should I be giving him Probios(?) while he's on the antibiotic? After some research last night I'd like to address copper in case that is the or part of the issue, but I'm not sure I can find copper boluses anywhere around here. We have a Murdoch's and Tractor Supply as well as a couple of local feed stores, but I'm not sure any of them carry what I need...does anyone have suggestions for that? I also don't want to give him too much, so what can I do to make sure I don't overdose him on copper?
Thanks again everyone!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

When giving antibiotics, give probiotics a few hours after treatment or by the end of the day, if the med is 1 x a day.

Antibiotics are usually given SQ(just under the skin) not in a muscle. DO not do it in the back leg, there is a nerve there, that can cripple the goat.
I give SQ shots in the armpit area's and over the ribs. 
LA200 is 1 cc per 20 lbs. Give for 5-7 days.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I'm going to have my husband pick up some probiotics in town on his way through...assuming one of those stores has what I need of course. Any suggestions on "dosage"? I want to make sure to get enough to get through the weekend and however much longer he will need them. I'm assuming the probiotics should be given through the entire antibiotic treatment, correct?
I was initially going to give him his shots SQ but the lady at Murdochs said it should be given IM. I'm aware of the nerve in the back leg, but this was the only spot I could find enough muscle to give him a shot IM.
I've never given SQ in the armpit or over the ribs, just the neck. What is the benefit of those locations over the neck location?
I read to do LA-200 as a 10 day treatment for Joint Ill (if that is indeed what he has), that was what was suggested multiple times by a moderator in this form in multiple different posts. Please, if this is incorrect I need to know. If he does indeed have Joint Ill I don't want to treat for an inadequate amount of time and then have to fight it off again.
Thank you again!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

rodeorulz said:


> I'm going to have my husband pick up some probiotics in town on his way through...assuming one of those stores has what I need of course. Any suggestions on "dosage"?


I usually give a tablespoon or so of the powder, mixed with water and drenched once a day. You can't OD probiotics.



rodeorulz said:


> I want to make sure to get enough to get through the weekend and however much longer he will need them. I'm assuming the probiotics should be given through the entire antibiotic treatment, correct?


Yes, that is correct.



rodeorulz said:


> I was initially going to give him his shots SQ but the lady at Murdochs said it should be given IM. I'm aware of the nerve in the back leg, but this was the only spot I could find enough muscle to give him a shot IM.


Everything can be given SQ except hormones. I would go back to giving it SQ.



rodeorulz said:


> I've never given SQ in the armpit or over the ribs, just the neck. What is the benefit of those locations over the neck location?


It's just personal preference and where you can find some loose skin on the individual goat.



rodeorulz said:


> I read to do LA-200 as a 10 day treatment for Joint Ill (if that is indeed what he has), that was what was suggested multiple times by a moderator in this form in multiple different posts. Please, if this is incorrect I need to know. If he does indeed have Joint Ill I don't want to treat for an inadequate amount of time and then have to fight it off again.


I am not sure on this, hopefully someone else will chime in soon.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

I read somewhere that raisins are high in copper. Can I give them to the wether instead of the copper bolus? If I do, what is the proper "dosage"? I realize this probably depends on the raisins I choose as I'm sure the amount of copper per serving varies per variety/brand/etc. I've also read that I probably shouldn't be treating for copper deficiency if I don't know with certainty that copper deficiency is the issue (due to risk of copper toxicity), so that is why I am thinking some raisins, basically as a treat, would be ok. Input on this would be appreciated as well 
I'm hoping to have a fecal ready to send in for him and probably a couple of other goats by Monday. That should provide some more answers (and questions I'm sure!) and more possible treatment options.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Thank you for chiming in Suzanne_Tyler!
What powdered probiotic do you recommend? I was thinking of having him pick up Probios gel/paste, mostly for ease as I don't have a drencher. Is there a benefit of one (powder or gel/paste) over the other?
After reading the suggestions from you and toth boer goats I will go back to SQ...shouldn't have let the lady at Murdoch's change my mind  SQ will be so much easier to do on this goat too!
Thanks again!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

rodeorulz said:


> I read somewhere that raisins are high in copper. Can I give them to the wether instead of the copper bolus? If I do, what is the proper "dosage"?


If he's copper deficient, raisins aren't going to help much.



rodeorulz said:


> I realize this probably depends on the raisins I choose as I'm sure the amount of copper per serving varies per variety/brand/etc. I've also read that I probably shouldn't be treating for copper deficiency if I don't know with certainty that copper deficiency is the issue (due to risk of copper toxicity)


Copper is very hard to OD as it's slow release.

He looks copper deficient in the photos you posted.



rodeorulz said:


> Thank you for chiming in Suzanne_Tyler!
> What powdered probiotic do you recommend? I was thinking of having him pick up Probios gel/paste, mostly for ease as I don't have a drencher. Is there a benefit of one (powder or gel/paste) over the other?


I think I use Probios brand. I got Goats Prefer the first time, but my local TSC only carries probios.

Gel is more for ease of drenching, powder is for top dressing. I do a little of both so I just keep it simple and use the powder.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

So it looks like my local TSC has Goats Prefer Probiotic Plus Paste and Goats Prefer Probiotic Powder. They also have a good selection of Probios in stock according to their website. Murdoch's doesn't appear to have anything (by checking their website anyway) other than Probios horse treats.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

He's got to be deficient of some mineral(s)...I just checked to see how much loose mineral was left in his tub and he ate it all!! I didn't weight/measure it before I put it in but I'd say I put anywhere from 1/2 to 1 c in his tub. So I put more in today. I do see on the mineral label that is says "One ounce of this product will provide 0.7 mg of selenium. Consumption of selenium should not exceed 0.7 mg per head per day." If he's truly deficient this shouldn't be an issue should it? Especially if he is also suffering form selenium deficiency, correct?

Here is the information on the loose goat mineral I use as well:
Ranch-Way Feeds Ranch-O-Min 1:1 Goat Mineral
Guaranteed Analysis:
Calcium (min) 11.0 %
Calcium (max) 13.2%
Phosphorus (min) 11.0%
Salt (min) 15.0%
Salt (max) 18.0%
Magnesium (min) 2.0%
Copper (min) 1,170 ppm
Selenium (min) 24 ppm
Zinc (min) 2,585 ppm
Vitamin A (min) 120,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D (min) 37,500 IU/lb
Vitamin E (min) 500 IU/lb

I can also provide the list of ingredients if that is helpful too.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

My goodness you would not believe my luck! lol. I was on the phone with a gal at TSC talking to her about the probiotics they had in stock for goats. I got off the phone with her and was looking into which one I wanted then my hubby called as he had just arrived at TSC. He walked in and was clueless so he handed his phone to the gal I had just got done talking to and she said "You'll never believe this...right after I got off the phone a guy walked up to me and said I need *everything* you were just talking to that gal about." He literally took it all!! So...lesson learned...next time tell her immediately what you want and make her take it to the front and hold it until the hubby shows up to buy it!! Fortunately, she still had something that looks like it'll work. I opted not to get the powder as I didn't want to deal with drenching (I don't have a drench gun and all they had at TSC was for cattle) and the "extra" nutrients as well as probiotics in the Goats Prefer Power Punch liquid appealed to me. Since he's so small I felt like I could successfully get the nutrients in his mouth with a syringe (all 1/3 oz up to 3X a day) without too much waste and without drenching. Wish me luck!! Going to give him a dose yet tonight then tomorrow after he receives his next dose of antibiotics


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good advice.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Most people have to buy copper boluses online--not sure if that was mentioned. I got the giant cow ones & used a little scale to divide the contents of one bolus among my goats. I was tired of running out so fast & it's cheaper too.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Ok, so a quick update and some more questions.
I weighed him on the 18th and he's already gained about 3 pounds (since I weighed him on the 14th)! Small win...Yay! I've been giving him a dose of 1/3 oz of Power Punch a day a few hours after his shot of antibiotics and he seems to LOVE that! He seems to have more energy and is still eating his minerals. He's been naughty and got into my young trees and went and visited the neighbors the other day too!! Since he's already made nose contact (oops!!) with the other goats he is getting to spend a bit more time with them, but because they pick on him (especially my doe) he doesn't hang out with them very much. Poor guy will probably always be a loner 
I did send in fecals and just got the results back today.
He came back as having a medium amount of stomach worms (Haemonchus), his total count (EPG) was 18. My doe came back as having a high amount of stomach worms and a low amount of Coccidia (not reported in total count) and her total count was 91. My doeling out of the mentioned doe came back as having a medium amount of stomach worms and her total count was 43. The last doeling I tested (completely unrelated from my goats and from a different herd, same herd as the wether) came back with a total count of 0...YAY!!
For reference here are their ranges (MidAmerican Ag Research):
low = 1-10
medium = 11-50
high = >51
So...now my question is...which dewormer should I use? I also am wondering how to address the low level of Coccidia in my doe? If this is already outlined somewhere in another post please don't hesitate to share a link.
I'm still deciding on whether I will treat him for copper deficiency and when. If I do, which I think I will, I will have to order online, as you mentioned catharina, as there does not appear to be anything available locally (no real surprise there). I just know I don't want to overdose him on copper :S I know it is slow releasing and also needs to be administered correctly, but if he isn't truly copper deficient I feel from what I've read that giving him copper could cause harm or death(?). So I guess I'm just nervous about doing this right now.
Thanks!!


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Well I went ahead and ordered copper boluses this morning. I'm thinking I'll give it a try. AND it looks like my doe may also be copper deficient :S


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sounds good.


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## rodeorulz (Nov 10, 2015)

Well he's up to 39.4 pounds now and definitely has better energy too  (I'm sure partially in thanks to the Power Punch he was receiving). There is still some swelling in the joints though  Not sure if that is just due to lack of good nutrition or what? I think it is fair to say we can rule out what I thought was joint ill. I gave him a 2g copper bolus tonight, so we'll see if that helps him too. Next will be deworming and that should help a bit too.
Thanks everyone for your help!


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