# Breeding - Genetic Diversity?



## FreedomHunter (Oct 31, 2013)

Hey guys & gals,

One thing I've been wondering about with farm animals in general (since I have absolutely no experience with animal husbandry other than reading) is what your strategies are for avoiding inbreeding? When I studied genetics in college, one thing I learned about is that if one blood line of animals interbreeds for too long it can lead to birth defects, retardation, or other complications. I didn't learn about the specifics of different animal breeding, but my assumption is that the information in college I learned about inbreeding is bad for goats as well as other species of animal. In order to promote genetic diversity in your herd, do you ever do things like let your friends goats breed with your herd from time to time? Is there any terminology for this sort of activity? 

I ask this for two reasons. 

1) I'm considering only owning a couple of does for milking, but when it comes time to replace them I was thinking it might be cheaper to find someone with a hot buck that is willing to let him go out on a date with my ladies and breed them rather than buy a new goat every decade or so. I would keep the does and raise them for milking and butcher/sell/give away the males. Thoughts on this? Anyone doing this now?

or...

2) I'm wondering how many goats I'd need to keep in order to keep producing fresh offspring that would avoid the inbreeding problem that could lead to poor health of future offspring. Does anyone know of the numbers of initial different blood lines one would have to buy in order to produce a lifetime of healthy offspring?

I know that's a lot of information for one discussion, but that's why I'm here to ask the questions. Perhaps some of you have just inbred your particular breed and haven't seen any issues? I don't know. Queries like these aren't something I've found that are easy to find answers to on google. I've seen some reports on breeding mice that talk about the specifics of keeping the generations separate, but again a goat is a different animal so I'm asking you all (the experts) on this one . Thank you for your time.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you only want to own a couple goats, then renting a buck would be the way to go. If you own bucks, then they should really be kept in a different area than the girls.


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## FreedomHunter (Oct 31, 2013)

Hrmm I didn't know people rented out their bucks. Thanks for sharing. That seems like it would be an economically viable way to do it.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

If you were looking to produce nationally competitive show and milk goats, you could learn to A.I. 

But unless you are breeding a buck back to daughters and grand daughters on a normal basis, you should be fine. We like to aim for no more then 5% inbreeding in our program.


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## FreedomHunter (Oct 31, 2013)

TDG-Farms said:


> If you were looking to produce nationally competitive show and milk goats, you could learn to A.I.
> 
> But unless you are breeding a buck back to daughters and grand daughters on a normal basis, you should be fine. We like to aim for no more then 5% inbreeding in our program.


Thank you for the information. I thought about artificial insemination, but I don't feel right doing that. I feel like 1) it's not as healthy (I have no science to back this up, it's just a gut feeling) and 2) if the goat has to go through the pain of labor I should at least let them have the pleasure of love making lol


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Folks who use AI have the opportunity to get superior genetics into their herd without $ spent housing & feeding a buck year round.
It really is a good way to go health wise, semen comes from animals who are tested regularly for disease.


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

I agree on what's been said about AI. It is harder than just normal breeding, but it is perfectly safe for the does. 

If you can find an AI class to go through it may be worth it to go see if it's for you. It is safer, bio security wise, and gives you more freedom then renting a buck.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Inbreeding is NOT as bad as it sounds. Ever heard to Rotokawa Devon Cattle? This superior breed of grass-based genetics was made by carefully line and in breeding, with very harsh culling methods. It is SO crucial to CULL, CULL, CULL when line or in breeding. To know what you want.

Genetic Diversity can be a pain. You can have 2 GREAT animals and get a mediocre kid from them. Totally possible is you're aiming for lots of genetic diversity. Genetic Diversity means this: you don't know what you can get or will get from them. You don't know if you'll get a good or horrible goat from them.

Have a look at these articles: (Google them)

Line Breeding for Better Livestock~by Matt Comerford and Georgia Organics
The Line is Fine~by Rabbit Smarties
The Myth Of Hybrid Vigor In Meat Goats~by Martin Farris of Double M Boer Goats
Making New Bloodlines...using the only ram you have~Carol J. Elkins.

Study line/in breeding before writing it off completely.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

FreedomHunter said:


> I thought about artificial insemination, but I don't feel right doing that. I feel like 1) it's not as healthy (I have no science to back this up, it's just a gut feeling) and 2) if the goat has to go through the pain of labor I should at least let them have the pleasure of love making lol


Sounds to me like you are allowing your emotions to influence things they should not influence. Trust me when I say if I could afford to AI, I would absolutely be doing it. It would give me access to the best genes the goat world has to offer and I could accomplish my goals so much faster, not to mention what it would do for my herd!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The 1 or 2 seconds they would be missing out on of love making would be well replaced with a nutter butter cookie


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Your putting complex emotions in animals who don't have them. It is strictly reproductive for animals. So once pregnant, they don't care. They only have the urge to reproduce. All the other stuff just isn't part of it.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

The best way to get animals that are consistently good is to cross back to those animals.

However it is a bit of a learning process to determine how much an animal can be bred back and not have problems.

In one of her books, Alice Hall, who bred the famous Nubian buck Frosty Marvin said that in her experience drawing each side of the pedigree opposite each other and then connecting the common animals with lines that the triangular patters were the most successful.

I would not breed a sire to his daughter unless it had been proven to be good or you were trying to prove it.

2 half siblings can set their common dam's type in the line.

A sire to a grandaughter is a good inbreeding.

The more inbred the more predictable but you have to know the lines and the weaknesses.

This is one of my best does:

http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=S001349159

If you click inbreeding she's only around 5% but look how many times she goes back to ++*B Companeros Voice of Reason and GCH++*B Perfection Snolan, 2 famous saanen bucks.

This was one of the best buck I ever owned. He really threw himself in his daughters. Check out how many times he went back to Snolan and also click to see what % his inbreeding was.

This buck was great on the outcross but tended to have smaller daughters with lower production if I crossed back on him because he was heavily inbred.

http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=S001178177

One problem with goats is often they do not reproduce consistently. Inbreeding or linebreeding can result in consistent offspring.

However one has to be conscious of what each line produces, the weaknesses and to try to introduce animals that shore up the weaknesses when using line bred animals for your breeding program.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

This book is ancient but contains a great discussion on inbreeding and linebreeding.

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Milk-Goats-Irmagarde-Richards/dp/B003BK3MSI

This is the previously mentioned book where Alice Hall discusses linebreeding

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Improved-Dairy-Goat-Management/dp/0932218148


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I'll be the voice of dissension here. I'm not a fan of the linebreeding that most breeders use today. Even with harsh culling there can be traits brought out that people aren't aware of which can negatively effect health. And if you only have a small herd you can't afford to cull that much or you won't have any animals left. I do have one goat I love who is linebred, although not super close. I'm very eager to find a buck for her that has the same traits I want to pass on but is not related.


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## ciwheeles (Apr 5, 2013)

I agree with Wildhearts. 

When it works it's line breeding. When it doesn't it's inbreeding. 

Isn't that the saying?

A little here and there is alright. But if it can be avoided it's best to. I also think it isn't good to be advocating someone who is just starting out to line breed. It's a very precise thing and shouldn't be done to just any goat for any reason. Nothing can crash a program faster then line breeding when it's done incorrectly. 


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

> This is one of my best does:
> 
> http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=S001349159
> 
> If you click inbreeding she's only around 5% but look how many times she goes back to ++*B Companeros Voice of Reason and GCH++*B Perfection Snolan, 2 famous saanen bucks.


Ummm...I guess I'm missing something here, but that pedigree only shows "Voice of Reason" once. How do you figure she goes back multiple times to that buck when he's not listed but once??


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I think for now you should stick with renting a buck every year. It's cheaper and easier for a newbie . Let's say you breed them and get a doeling you really love. You can keep that doeling and rent a different buck (not the doelings dad) the next year, so no inbreeding occurs.

Then later on when you are more experienced and you know what you want in your herd, you can look into AI. I gotta say, AI gives you LOTS of options, and is safer for the doe. The only downfalls I've heard is that it's More expensive and a lower conception rate.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

CritterCarnival said:


> Ummm...I guess I'm missing something here, but that pedigree only shows "Voice of Reason" once. How do you figure she goes back multiple times to that buck when he's not listed but once??


You're only looking at the first page of the pedigree. Traced back farther I find at least 5x Voice of Reason, and somewhere around TWENTY Perfection Snolan, including some VERY close linebreedings. You couldn't pay me to own that goat.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

CritterCarnival said:


> Ummm...I guess I'm missing something here, but that pedigree only shows "Voice of Reason" once. How do you figure she goes back multiple times to that buck when he's not listed but once??


Do you know how to use ADGAGENETICS?

You know you can click on any animal in the pedigree you are viewing it it takes you further back????

*Anthem Reason Senator* - Son of Reason

*Empress* Grandaughter of Reason

Go back about 4 generations on *Abraxas* and you run into Companeros Reason China light

click on* Artesia* and you will also see China Light in there

*Hotshot* was 5/8 Reason- a Voice of Reason Son bred to a Reason China light daughter*.( 2x Reason)*

*Monique* -paternal grand dam Espirit out of Tim Tam Reason Legend (Reason Daughter) Esprit's sire JESTER was a double grandaughter of Voice of Reason. Then Monique's maternal grand Dam was a daughter Sweetwoods REASON Jubliant. So that means Monique *(4X Reason)*

So that was my point. That I am aware of Reason appears in the pedigree at least 10 times but if you click inbreeding percentage it's only 5%.

I won't break it down but if you do the same thing with Snolan you'll see him in there 14 times:clap:


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> You're only looking at the first page of the pedigree. Traced back farther I find at least 5x Voice of Reason, and somewhere around TWENTY Perfection Snolan, including some VERY close linebreedings. You couldn't pay me to own that goat.


Yes but you are missing the point. If you click inbreeding she's only inbred 5%.

Doe appraises 90 with an excellent in udder at 7 years of age and has scored 41 and 46 in rear udder height. Has a 90 daughter that also got a 40 in rear udder heigh, an 88 daughter who milks 16 lbs at peak, another 88 daughter scoring e in udder, and another that freshened this year that will probably score 90, all out of difft bucks.


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

Yes, I DO know how to use their genetics page. :-( But anything past the first page is pretty insignificant really...you're already looking at 12-14 year old goats JUST on the first page...

That's just "bingo" papers, you know? gotta have the names, don't care about the form.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I still haven't figured out how they calculate percentages. Because he's an older buck he's many generations back, but his progeny were VERY closely linebred and with that many crossings it's highly likely that there are traits being carried down unnoticed.

Kat - you can't say that anything back there doesn't matter. If it's just once, sure, but when the same name comes up over and over and over it has significant influence on later generations.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

canyontrailgoats said:


> *I think for now you should stick with renting a buck every year. *It's cheaper and easier for a newbie . Let's say you breed them and get a doeling you really love. You can keep that doeling and rent a different buck (not the doelings dad) the next year, so no inbreeding occurs.
> 
> Then later on when you are more experienced and you know what you want in your herd, you can look into AI. I gotta say, AI gives you LOTS of options, and is safer for the doe. The only downfalls I've heard is that it's More expensive and a lower conception rate.


I do that but for a different reason.

If I am wanting to linebreed on a certain animal then I will seek out bucks that have that animal in their pedigree and use them. That way I add another cross to that animal in the pedigree while at the same time adding some outside blood.

At least for me that keeps a similar type coming out without the breedings being too close. You are adding crosses to the same animal while keeping your inbreeding % age below a certain level.

Also if you have an animal whose inbreeding % age is very high, you can rent a buck and totally outcross.

I do AI too but for a newcomer it would be to expensive.

Another advantage is say you have a buck you really like. If you rent a buck or get buck service or AI then you can keep him a long time because you can use him over and over without the breeding getting too close because you have unrelated animals between.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> I still haven't figured out how they calculate percentages. Because he's an older buck he's many generations back, but his progeny were VERY closely linebred and with that many crossings it's highly likely that there are traits being carried down unnoticed.
> 
> Kat - you can't say that anything back there doesn't matter. If it's just once, sure, but when the same name comes up over and over and over it has significant influence on later generations.


On the page on ADGAGENETICS click INBREEDING and it will give you the percentage.

I show you how they do.

Ok so lets use Voice of Reason.

A son would be 1/2 reason.

Reason to his daughter would be 3/4

Reason to a grandaughter 5/8

I've always heard stay under 5/8.

Now ADGAGENETICS has it in 10th's but that's how you do it.

You can lose stature with inbreeding if you go too high. You can also lose hardiness. Double teats can be an issue.

You really need to keep good records of your animals and to know the animals you are using. Like somebody said you don't really want to do it unless you are really familiar with the animals.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> I still haven't figured out how they calculate percentages. Because he's an older buck he's many generations back, but his progeny were VERY closely linebred and with that many crossings* it's highly likely that there are traits being carried down unnoticed. *


Actually no.

Inbreeding brings all the traits good and bad to the top where they can be noticed. Bad traits that are carried along under outcrossing will come out if the line is then inbred, where if it's outcrossed they will only occasionally pop out. That is why it's important to talk to the breeders about the lines. Also if you see animals heavily linebred that have performed in the past you want to choose those over ones that have not because you have some track record.



> Kat - you can't say that anything back there doesn't matter. If it's just once, sure, but when the same name comes up over and over and over it has significant influence on later generations.


You are 100% right.


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> I still haven't figured out how they calculate percentages. Because he's an older buck he's many generations back, but his progeny were VERY closely linebred and with that many crossings it's highly likely that there are traits being carried down unnoticed.
> 
> Kat - you can't say that anything back there doesn't matter. If it's just once, sure, but when the same name comes up over and over and over it has significant influence on later generations.


But the concentration is so far back in the generations, the influence is pretty diluted. At some point you have to look at the current generation and either you have a good goat (or any animal) or you don't.


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## Emzi00 (May 3, 2013)

Linebreeding is the quickest way to improve your herd. It's also the quickest way to ruin it. You have to know what you're doing.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Hollowdweller said:


> Actually no.
> 
> Inbreeding brings all the traits good and bad to the top where they can be noticed. Bad traits that are carried along under outcrossing will come out if the line is then inbred, where if it's outcrossed they will only occasionally pop out.


This is so true. By only outcrossing, bad traits can lurk for a long time before they pop up. With line breeding/inbreeding you will know what good and bad traits your lines carry much more quickly. You just have to be willing to cull when the bad stuff pops up. The benefit is fixing good traits so that they are passed down consistently.

If you use a heavily line bred buck(that looks great from lines you really like) he will be much more likely to breed true, and throw more consistent traits, even when outcrossed.


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

Hey!

I actually found an excerpt from that Alice Hall Book I mentioned previously in this thread that explains what I am trying to say WAY better than I can:

http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/83-6/alice_g_hall/

Remember Alice Hall was the breeder who gave us Frosty Marvin.

http://www.amberwooddairygoats.com/html/1983_marvin_article.html


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Hollowdweller said:


> On the page on ADGAGENETICS click INBREEDING and it will give you the percentage.
> 
> I show you how they do.
> 
> ...


That's not how it works. If you look at the inbreeding percentage they don't show 50% of the parents, or 25% of the grandparents. There's complicated statistics behind it.



Hollowdweller said:


> Actually no.
> 
> Inbreeding brings all the traits good and bad to the top where they can be noticed. Bad traits that are carried along under outcrossing will come out if the line is then inbred, where if it's outcrossed they will only occasionally pop out. That is why it's important to talk to the breeders about the lines. Also if you see animals heavily linebred that have performed in the past you want to choose those over ones that have not because you have some track record.


That's only true for traits they are LOOKING at. Quarter Horse breeders didn't know they were passing down serious health conditions until HYPP and HERDA were identified. Breeders get tunnel vision and focus on things like toplines or milk production, or heavy muscling or a certain type of movement, and many generations down you have hip displaysia, breathing problems, high cancer rates, animals that can't give birth unassisted. Outcrossing means less refinement of desired traits but fewer unintended consequences.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> That's not how it works. If you look at the inbreeding percentage they don't show 50% of the parents, or 25% of the grandparents. There's complicated statistics behind it.


If you want to look into how it is calculated, this wiki page explains the coefficient of relationship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_relationship

And the coefficient of inbreeding:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_relationship#Coefficient_of_inbreeding


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Not only is that math way over my head, but it doesn't seem to coincide with the percentages listed by ADGA.


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## FreedomHunter (Oct 31, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> Your putting complex emotions in animals who don't have them. It is strictly reproductive for animals. So once pregnant, they don't care. They only have the urge to reproduce. All the other stuff just isn't part of it.


lol well first off I was joking about the lovemaking part. I agree that goats don't feel complex emotions like humans do in the sense of romance, but saying they wouldn't feel any stimulation from love making would be a falsehood.

My main point from my previous post is that I am still skeptical about AI and I don't think it has been tested enough to be safe to play around with. Sure in the short term it has proven to be safe, and in scientific theory it makes sense; but the whole eugenic practice of people being able to pick and select exactly what is wanted in an animal has not been around for a very long time considering the span of history. Some domestication of animals has been successful and with other species it has been a complete disaster. Honey bees are a great example of this. Not only are they dying for a multitude of reasons that scientists are theorizing right now, but most of the generations of bees that bee keepers are keeping are only living 3 years when they normally lived for 15 in the wild. Bee keepers I've collaborated with on forums say that there's practically no such thing as feral bees anymore. They say most of the bees people run into outside are bees that escaped from farmed colonies. The significance of this is that when humans meddle with biology they don't quite fully understand it can really destroy a species well being as a whole and I don't want to be part of that. I enjoy the sustainability that comes with raising animals the natural way that our farming ancestors have proven works from the past 10k years of humanity being farming oriented.

I don't doubt that many of you are getting good results with your methods, and I'm not saying you shouldn't be doing what you're doing with your breeding programs. All I am saying is that I won't be doing that and I still have my doubts and fears that in 200 years or so of humanity tampering with genetics of plants and animals that we will start to see some significant issues arise with genetically planned species. If all of us use AI and none of us stick to the traditional methods of raising animals, any genetic changes we make to the stock of animals we have will be irreversible.

I know at least one person right now reading this wants to chime in with "yeah but you don't understand AI then if you think that it's that different from breeding naturally" and I do actually understand the processes. I agree that the impregnation process is very similar. I agree that the sperm is almost identical in both processes, but the keyword there is almost. You have to remember that our atmosphere is full of radiation (even if it's not large amounts) and sperm that is frozen and saved for later is exposed to much different types of radiation for much longer than that which is made from a males testicles fresh and exits the body within a day. So yeah, in short I believe there are technicalities on atomic and even subatomic levels to any AI process or genetically modified DNA that we may see cause issues in the future of any plant or animal breeding programs and for that I choose not to use those methods. And as I said before in a previous post, I don't have any evidence for this; but like most things in science until they are put to the test we will never know. Right now, AI and such has only been around for about a century so it's very new. I base my opinion solely on speculation.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Not only is that math way over my head, but it doesn't seem to coincide with the percentages listed by ADGA.


Well, I know the administrator of the ADGA genetics website and he has an info forum for questions that explains that that is indeed how it is calculated.
http://forum.missdees.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=214

"If you're talking about the Inbred column on the pedigree search page as opposed to the Inbreeding view on the goat detali page I can understand why you are confused. The one on the pedigree search page is not a percent but the coefficient of inbreeding and can be from blank or 0 to .99. The one on the goat detail page is the inbreeding coefficent multiplied by 100 and expressed as a percentage.

I am thinking of removing the one on the pedigree search page just to avoid confusion.

Gene
Gene Dershewitz
ADGA Genetics Forum Administrator"


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> That's only true for traits they are LOOKING at. Quarter Horse breeders didn't know they were passing down serious health conditions until HYPP and HERDA were identified. Breeders get tunnel vision and focus on things like toplines or milk production, or heavy muscling or a certain type of movement, and many generations down you have hip displaysia, breathing problems, high cancer rates, animals that can't give birth unassisted. Outcrossing means less refinement of desired traits but fewer unintended consequences.


Not if you know your lines.

It's very true that certain conditions can be heritable and often we focus on type or production at the expense of overall health or longivity, but there are ways to incorporate that into your selection process.

Here's how I did it with this doe we were talking about.

http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=S001349159

First if you went to Progeny you would see that she had kids last year, in 2013 and that she was born in 2005. So that shows she was still productive at 8 years old.

Somebody outside wouldn't know, because I'm not on test and she didn't kid this year, but she's still alive now, at 9 years old and I milked her over the winter rather than re breeding her.

Then you would look at the Sire's dam.

The sire's dam was born in 1999. We have milk records for her and at one point she had a lactation of over 4000 lbs so above average. Sires' dam also is listed as being in the 90th %ile so USDA classifies her as an elite doe. (PRODUCTION EVAL) But despite being a heavy milker you can see that she was born in 1999, and left the herd in 2011(USDA DATA) So she lived at least 11 years.

Somebody outside would not know but I also know that she was in a commercial dairy which even more shows the degree of health and hardiness due to the higher level of competition than a hobby herd.

Then you look at the does dam, Emily you can see that she was born in 2003, and that her last kids were born 2012 so she was productive and still alive at 9.

Somebody outside would not know, but I know she lived to be 10.

I also know, beause I owned him that her sire lived to be ten.

Then I go back and look at the maternal grand dam Easter. She was born in 1996 but had her last kid in 2003 so she at least lived to be 7.

Somebody outside would not know but I milked her till she was 10, retired her and she lived to be 14.

We can't always know what might being passed on in a recessive, as was mentioned earlier - we are more likely to find out if we linebreed.

If hardiness or longevity is something we are trying to breed for if we find linebred animals that are living long especially like in dairies and stuff where they are not being pampered then we can at least partly select for overall health and longevity.

Assuming these animals are exhibiting the production and type that we want as well, then we can go for those traits while keeping overall health and hardiness in mind as well while upping our consistency.

The main problem I believe is it's hard to find this information other than in your own herd as you develop a doe line that has these traits.

In commercial herds goats are often culled if they drop below a certain level so a goat that might truly be hardy and give more than another goat OVER HER LIFE might be culled in favor of a doe that milks for 3 years at 4000 and dies at six.

In a show herd a doe that is sound, productive and healthy might be culled in favor of a GCH that has health problems.

In a small hobby herd people often select based on spots or even worse they have less than hardy goat and bond with them while treating them and spread their genetics thru their herd, unwittingly reducing the overall health of the herd.

I try to keep a list of all my goats. How much they milk at what age. How their kids do. How long they live. Try to keep that in mind. I keep it on the computer and the does that have the best combination of traits go to the top of the list.

Here's an example of my attempt to continue that.

OK, so the doe mentioned before. This is her daughter

http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=S001482046

So the doe, the peak she has ever milked was 14 lbs. So I wanted to increase the milk but not lose longevity.

So the buck that is the sire of the daughter. EZ. His sire is Prime Rate who is on the USDA sire summary for milk.

EZ's dam is Companeros Cascade Mallorca. She was Top 10 for milk, a permanent champion, Appraised 90 at 7 years old.

Then if you look at Mallorca's milk records she was born 1998, I know she was in Redwood Hill a commercial dairy. She has 3 lactations over 400 lbs and 2 over 300 in 305. If you look further at the milk records you see that she was milked in extended lactations.

Here last lactation she milked 698 days and her last test was January 2008. So that was when she was nearly 10 years old.

So the daughter milks more. We don't know if she will live longer but by choosing to use 2 sires in a row whose dams have both milked over 4000 and lived to be over 10 in commercial daires I'm trying to at least partially select for good health and longevity.

So sorry for the long explanation but that is how you can linebreed but still select for hardy animals...or at least TRY:lovey:hlala:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

> One thing I've been wondering about with farm animals in general (since I have absolutely no experience with animal husbandry other than reading) is what your strategies are for avoiding inbreeding?


There are enough different bloodlines out there that it's not all that hard to avoid inbreeding. Of course your purebred animals are going to trace back to foundation stock, but for most breeds, that is so far back...it's not going to have any influence. There is plenty of diversity in most purebred goats nowadays and sometimes line/inbreeding can be a good thing.



> When I studied genetics in college, one thing I learned about is that if one blood line of animals interbreeds for too long it can lead to birth defects, retardation, or other complications. I didn't learn about the specifics of different animal breeding, but my assumption is that the information in college I learned about inbreeding is bad for goats as well as other species of animal. In order to promote genetic diversity in your herd, do you ever do things like let your friends goats breed with your herd from time to time? Is there any terminology for this sort of activity?


Responsible breeders who have a goal and purpose for their herd won't just breed willy nilly. They will do the research and bring in outside genetics as needed that will hopefully help improve their stock. Some breeders do linebreeding, some don't. You do have to be knowledgeable when it comes to doing linebreeding because it can be tricky. Sometimes you can get some outstanding animals and sometimes you will get duds. Culling is important. Keeping your herd genetics open is good, but you can also help improve things by linebreeding for certain qualities.



> 1) I'm considering only owning a couple of does for milking, but when it comes time to replace them I was thinking it might be cheaper to find someone with a hot buck that is willing to let him go out on a date with my ladies and breed them rather than buy a new goat every decade or so. I would keep the does and raise them for milking and butcher/sell/give away the males. Thoughts on this? Anyone doing this now?


I think you may be over thinking this. Once you purchase your first goats and get the hang of things, I think you will get a better understanding on raising goats. If you purchase two does for milk, you will HAVE to breed them to keep them in milk so you're going to need a buck at some point, whether you decide to do stud service or purchase your own. If you decided to keep one of your does doe kids as a replacement, that's really not much cheaper in the long run. When you add up all the costs that come with breeding the does and raising the kids, you won't be much ahead if at all vs. just purchasing an adult milk doe or doeling. As for buck/wether kids, please don't give them away because they do have some value. It just hurts the market in the long run.



> 2) I'm wondering how many goats I'd need to keep in order to keep producing fresh offspring that would avoid the inbreeding problem that could lead to poor health of future offspring. Does anyone know of the numbers of initial different blood lines one would have to buy in order to produce a lifetime of healthy offspring?


Just use a different buck each year and you can go on breeding forever.



> Perhaps some of you have just inbred your particular breed and haven't seen any issues?


Yes I have done some linebreeding to improve quality. I've never had any issues come of it. I usually like to keep my bloodlines pretty open, but linebreeding can be a very useful tool if you know what you're doing.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Frosty Marvin is indeed a good example of the arguments for both sides here. He was indeed a very nice buck created by and line breed many times...He was also a G6S carrier and spread it all over the Nubian gene pool before anyone knew what it was.


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