# Charlotte update



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Anyone around tonight?

Charlotte is not well ... she wont eat anything, is just sitting, doesnt want to come for a walk with me (very unusual for her) and I just noticed she is squatting and really really straining to urinate, but nothing coming out. Temp is 101.8.

Her breath smells slightly sweet ...

No tenderness anywhere including round her kidneys, no strange smell to the urine, there hasnt been any change of feed ... 

Ideas please?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, nothing coming out, off feed ...*

Assumign she is not pregnant I am going to say it sounds like a Urinary tract infection


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## nhsmallfarmer (Apr 14, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, nothing coming out, off feed ...*

I found this about URINARY CALCULI, but I tried it with my doe who had a weird looking urine and trouble passing it, it seemed to help. I know it says for a buck as doe dont get stones like a buck does but I tell you after 2 days she was streaming pee where it had been slimy and dripping out not streaming

Juice of one Lemon
2 Tablespoons of Baking Soda
1 Cup of Water
Drench the buck with 20 cc, 3 times a day the first day, 2 time a day for two days, then once a day until the urine is full and steady. Keep it up, every other day, then twice a week, if the animal is confortable and has a succesful flow.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, nothing coming out, off feed ...*

Stacey, that was my thought, it just came on so suddenly :shrug: she was fine when I saw her at lunch, nothing near like fine this evening. She'd only be about 30 days pregnant. I figure an abortion at this stage wouldnt affect her, it would just be like a normal heat.

Given that it was Charlotte, my best show doe, plus she'd had the caesarian last year, I was a little more worried than usual.

I've given her a shot of antibiotics, some B12 and some electrolytes and glucose. Put her up in a warm stall with a rug on and a wide range of foods to choose from - she's not interested in any.

Its midnight now and I'm going to head off to bed for a few hours, will get up later and check on her.

What would you give to UTI? I've never had a goat with one before ... I know you can get stuff for horses, or I have some Ural here (human UTI treatment) ...

thanks for the recipe nhsmallfarmer :thumb:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, nothing coming out, off feed ...*

keren ....here is a link on... what is used for urinary tract infections .....
hope this helps.... :wink:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Goats-3480/2 ... eating.htm


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, nothing coming out, off feed ...*

Isn't sweet breath a sign of ketosis?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, nothing coming out, off feed ...*



goathappy said:


> Isn't sweet breath a sign of ketosis?


Yes, although I'm not sure why she would be ketotic because she's not heavily pregnant ... she is rather fat though and I'm thinking that if she hadnt eaten for a day and her body was breaking down her fat for nutrition, that is what causes the build up of ketones and makes the breath smell sweet, so I think that MIGHT explain it.

She's straining while she's laying down today. Looks for all the world like she is kidding when she does it.

I'm not sure if she's passed any faeces, either. I have her in a small pen so I can watch for that.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, nothing coming out, off feed ...*

I hope you can figure out what is wrong ray: :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, nothing coming out, off feed ...*

she has a bit over an hour to pass some faeces, otherwise we will do an enema.

Still not sure entirely what exactly is wrong with her


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, nothing coming out, off feed ...*

No idea whats up with her but just wanted you to know I'm praying for her. ray:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, nothing coming out, off feed ...*



RunAround said:


> No idea whats up with her but just wanted you to know I'm praying for her. ray:


thank you :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet*

Took Miss Charlotte to the vet today, as there was no improvement.

Basically she said it could be three things:

1) Urinary tract infection - not too serious, treat for 7 - 10 days with antibiotics

2) Urinary tract infection which has spread to the kidneys (cant remember the name for it) - this is pretty serious and needs antibiotics for 4 - 6 weeks

3) An adhesion from the surgery (she had a c-section about 6 mths ago) which has caused the bladder to sit in the wrong position in the body, which will predispose the bladder to infections - treat as above but she will be prone to it all her life.

So we took a urine sample and it has been sent off to the lab for analysis, results will be back either tomorrow or Saturday, in the meantime I am treating her with antibiotics. The lab is also going to check whether whatever bacteria is in the urine is actually going to be killed by my antibiotics, or if we need to use a different one, because she had a huge dose of the a/b after the caesar so it might be a resistant bug.

Poor Charlotte is not very happy


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet*

oh boy that must be frustrating. Hopefully there is a quick answer and it is a simple UTI


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet*

oh I hope so  I just went and gave her her shot before I go to bed, she screamed and screamed and screamed for about 10 mins then ran up the ramp to hide in the back of my ute  Poor girl.

I really hope its not too serious. if its gone to the kidneys I am NOT looking forward to 6 weeks of injections ... maybe I can get an oral a/b. And if its an adhesion ... poor girl being prone to it all the time ... but at least I will know and be able to watch for it and hit it early. I think this time, she might have been struggling to piddle for a few days - I remember seeing her squatting a couple times and thinking I was just seeing the end of it, thats why nothing was coming out, if you know what I mean ...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet*

Poor Charlotte....I am glad you took her to the vet... :hug: .....I pray ....that it will be a simple fix and she will be just fine ..... :hug: ray:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

A question ...

When I had her in at the vet yesterday, the vet said if she was a buck or wether she would pass a catheter to drain the bladder, but in a female it is so much more difficult, so she didnt do it. I was surprised.

The poor girl is really heaving today and trying to go all the time and not getting anything out.

I'm just worried that without the catheter she will rupture the bladder, and I wanted to know your thoughts?

I trust my vet I'm just surprised I thought the first thing they would do would be empty the bladder ... :shrug:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

so you havent seen her urinate at all in a couple days? It might be worth a phone call to learn the risks and all. Because if she doesnt urinate soon she will die from that


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

If she hasn't urinated for a couple of days that you know of....... and she is drinking more water ....she is at high risk ....of rupturing her bladder definitely......she needs it drained some how....and soon :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

She gets about a table spoon out at the most, sometimes just a couple drops, whenever she tries to go. Which is about every 4 minutes. Maybe that is why the vet wasnt so worried, because there is a tiny bit coming out? :shrug: But it definitely concerns me. She's drinking, not a heap but some. Hopefully she (vet) will call with test results soon and I will ask her about it.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

Keren ....did the vet tell you.... when the results will be in?

that is good .... she is urinating at least a little......I pray.... the results will come in soon and be a good outcome...... :hug: ray:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

she expected the results either today or tomorrow.

charlotte is looking worse today than yesterday :worried: and I havent seen her pass anything at all for a few hours now. She's given up on squatting and trying to pee, basically she is just laying down and heaving (like they do when they are kidding). She doesnt want to walk around or even stand much. No interest in food or water.

The vet does farm calls from 12noon till 2pm, its now 1pm and once she is back in the office I'm gonna call her, maybe ask again about the catheter, and what we can do to make her more comfortable.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

I do pray that she gets better....and it is odd that your vet wouldn't catheterize her, I thot that the does urethra was straighter than a bucks and would be easier to pass a line through. At least she is getting some out and hopefully it is enough to keep her from a rupture.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*



liz said:


> I do pray that she gets better....and *it is odd that your vet wouldn't catheterize her, I thot that the does urethra was straighter than a bucks and would be easier to pass a line through*. At least she is getting some out and hopefully it is enough to keep her from a rupture.


that was my thought on the matter, too :shrug:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

I think it would be in Charlottes best interest to persuade the vet to cath her...at least then you will have given her chance for relief even if it doesn't work. :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

yep, I'll do that soon as 2pm rolls round ...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

I agree...... it is at an emergency state now....she needs relieved... :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

called the office, Stacey (my vet) isnt expected back until 3pm, its 2.30pm now, so I'll call again in another half hour ...


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, question?*

just heading into the vet with her now, going to ultrasound and x ray the bladder to try to find stones or adhesions, then put in a catheter. depending on what we see it might mean surgery. hopefully not euthanasia. but right now the vet agrees we need to do a catheter before the bladder ruptures because if that happens its definitely euthanasia time.

i will update later


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

Well almost 6 hrs later I am home.

Its not good news.

I took her in and Stacey (the vet) put the ultrasound on her, found the bladder, it had not ruptured so that was good, was sort of 3/4 full not bursting (she actually managed to piddle when we got there, think the truck ride stirred things up a bit). Stacey couldnt see any stones in the bladder, or any adhesions.

The results had not come back from the lab but Stacey rang them up to try and hurry them up, and basically they found no bacteria etc. in the urine. Which meant there was no urinary tract infection. Which is bad, because UTI would be simple and treatable.

So she decided to catheterise her, because she needed to be relieved before the bladder did rupture. She got out the normal catheter and couldnt get it in. A slightly smaller one also couldnt go in. Then she tried a tiny tiny one for tom cats, about as thick as a 19g needle. That wouldnt go in either. She asked David, the senior vet, to try but he couldnt get it in either.

Basically what we are dealing with is a constriction of the urethra (or is that ureter? I can never remember which word is correct) so that the tube is just a tiny tiny hole and thats why she's not getting much out.

We discussed surgery as a possibility but Stacey was not sure how successful that would be - my vet does not specialise in goats - they are a mixed practice of large and small animals but goats arent all that common around here. Stacey has never dealt with goats except for the ones I bring in and I think one other breeder (who I dont know) takes her goats there. This particular problem is certainly not something she's ever experienced.

So we called Sydney University Vet Hospital at Camden - they are both a standard and specialised vet centre and they are the only goat specialist I know of. They did a lot of work on a very famous and valuable Boer buck called Big Bucks Stone Cold about 5 yrs ago - he got UC and they operated several times and gave him 5 more years before he died. Anyway, Stacey called them and asked their opinion. Basically, they confirmed that she should have been able to pass the catheter easily, and so the constriction diagnosis is correct. She asked them about surgery - they said the position it is in, its basically impossible to do surgery. They suggested to add another antibiotic to the mix - she's on TetraVet which is an oxytetracycline, and now also Trisoprim, a sulfanomide. They also suggested to give Flunixil (sp?), an anti-inflammatory and pain relief.

The hope is that maybe, maybe, with a bit of anti-inflammatory this problem will resolve itself; but it seems highly doubtful. I will be taking her back Monday for re-assessment, we will ultrasound the bladder again and remove urine via a needle through the abdomen if necessary.

But basically, we are looking at a problem that cannot be treated, and is unlikely to resolve itself.

Unless a miracle happens, it looks like we will euthanase her on Monday. That is, if she makes it that far and doesnt die overnight or gets worse during the weekend (Stacey is on call all weekend so we agreed if she does get worse I will call and bring her in again, for reassessment, draining and/or euthanasia).

This has been a really hard day :tears:


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

I've been following this sad saga...I'm so sorry for you and your doe. :hug: I'm sure she knows you are doing everything possible to save her. Good luck, I'll be ray: for you both.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

oh Keren I am so sorry to hear this will be praying for a miracle for you and the goats sake


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

I was so hopingto hear a different outcome, you have tried your best and you really can't do much more except make her comfortale and hope the meds bring down the swelling. I pray that she can pull through, if not then she will always be greatful for what you have done for her. :hug:


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

I am praying for her. ray:

Hopefully the pain meds will help. :hug: :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

Miracles do happen with ....The power of Prayer ...... ray: :hug:

Dear Lord... please help this doe and help the vet to find a solution... so that this doe ...will be OK and live a long ......happy and healthy life....Amen ray:

My heart goes out to you keren.... :hug:


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

I am so sorry Keren, I to have been following this thread so hopping for good news.....my heart is sad for you, but miracles *DO* happen! We have friends that just had to put their 13yr old dog down this week and she asked me why do I keep getting animals when it just breaks your heart when something happens......I told her that they bring sooooo much joy to my life, that I just love them and take as best care of them as I can while I'm blessed to have......even with the heart breaks of losing one from time to time, I can not imagine life without them.....If she doesn't pull through know that you gave her the best life and that you did everything you could for her.
Take care and thoughts are with you :hug: , Denise


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

sounds like she might be having muscle spasms of the urethra or even a swelling for some reason. Can they tap the bladder from external? We used to do that for sterile catch and is not difficult at all.

Also, a steroid could help with a swelling and a muscle relaxer - it is worth a shot!


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

Keren, I am so sorry to hear this. How old is this doe? Did this just start this? My heart goes out to you and I hope she gets better and fast. :hug:

My first thought really was UC, but if they did not find anything in the Ultra Sound then I guess not.


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## rgbdab (Nov 26, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

Very sorry the news wasn't better. Just know you are doing all you can for her and it is in Gods hands.

Anti-inflammatory is a good option and just might help so stay positive.

I wonder if some kind of smooth muscle relaxer would help? It can relax spasms so maybe........ ?

Best of luck to you and Charlotte.

Denise


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## RowdyKidz (Apr 2, 2009)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

I am so sorry Keren. :hug: :hug: :hug: It's frustrating when an animal under you're care is/was suffering and you don't know what the problem is/was. Been there done that.
And it doesn't get any easier.

I pray you can find out what's wrong and fix her. ray: for her best interest. :tears:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

Don't give up on her yet keren.... Pray ray: .....

Allison ...does have some great advice there..... it just might work.. :hug: ray:


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

Oh I'm so sorry to hear that Keren, I'll keep you and Charlotte in my prayers and I hope you can find a way to resolve this ray: ray: :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

well the flunixil (anti-inflammatory and pain med) is working wonders, when I got home last night she walked straight off the truck down the ramp and started eating hay. She ate almost a normal amount of hay and grain last night, which is amazing since she hasnt eaten for about four days. She also managed to get quite a bit of urine out, both at the vets and at home, so I think the combination of the anti-inflammatory and the poking around of the catheter helped a little bit. She is so much happier and comfortable now - no straining this morning and she's bright and happy.

The question is now whether the urethra is going to stay open once the anti-flammatory meds are stopped; I'm trying to stay optimistic but I honestly wonder if its just going to close up again without the anti-inflammatory.

I'm glad she's eaten something because the Flunixil can cause stomach ulcers in animals that are off their feed; but we (stacey the vet and I) figured that was a risk we were happy to take considering she was reaching emergency state.

Lori, she's 20 months old, today will be day 5 of this happening, she had a caesar last year in september. UC was one of the things we were thinking of, but it seemed unlikely since its rare in does, you would think I'd have problems with my boys first and I havent, plus the ultrasound didnt show anything and the specialist confirmed that we would have seen something, plus when stacey was trying to get the catheter in, and she couldnt, she tried flushing it really well because that would have moved a stone if it were there. So thats how we came to the conclusion it was a physical narrowing of the urethra rather than a stone blocking it.

Allison, the plan is to tap the bladder externally on Monday (or earlier if she needs it) if the ultrasound shows that it is very very full. Yesterday it was only moderately full and then she managed to pass a significant amount, which is why we decided to leave her. I'll be watching her closely and if she manages to pass urine over the weekend, that will mean that she probably doesnt need a tap on Monday. But if it constricts again and she cant void anything, I'll take her in monday (or earlier if need be) and we will do the external tap, and give her a little more time to try and sort things out. But all the external tap does really is buy some more time, its not a long term solution and as I said its a pretty untreatable condition.

Thank you so much for your support and :hug: guys, you dont know how much I appreciate it.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Doe straining to urinate, went to the vet, bad news*

You welcome keren... :hug: .......I see the prayers... must be doing something.....she is improving.......and I pray ....that she remains doing well ....after the drugs have stopped.....There is still hope.......hang in there..... :hug: ray:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Charlotte is living up to her nickname today (Charlotte the harlot); she's in season :roll: and tarting around teasing the boys because her sick pen shares a fence with the bachelor pad lol

she's still feeling good and managing to pee quite well, question being once she's off the flunixil (last shot tonight) can she keep it up?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

OH I hope that this is a perminant healing for her and she improves and lives a long and happy life ray:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

StaceyRoop said:


> OH I hope that this is a perminant healing for her and she improves and lives a long and happy life ray:


I hope so too ray:


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

Keren.......praying that Charlotte keeps heading back in the right direction for a full recovery ray: !


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I am so glad to hear that she is doing better. Isn't prayer wonderful.

Anything can happen with prayer. ray:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I totally agree....Lori... :wink: :hug: ray:



Keren.....If she is in season........ hey.......... that is a sign of health ....when they are sick....... they don't usually care about those things....... so that is an excellent sign.... :thumbup: .......I have faith.... that she will pull though.... after being taken off the drug....... :wink: :hug: ray:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Just spoke with Stacey (vet) and she has suggested now we try her without the Flunixil (last night was the last shot) and see how she goes without it. Fingers crossed everything will continue to improve. I guess we will know by tomorrow or the next day if she blocks up again without the anti-inflammatory; it does have side effects including stomach ulcers so we are hoping she doesnt need to be on it long term. 

:dance: thats me doing the happy dance. Friday I was 98% convinced we would have to put her down, unless a miracle happened. Today, I'm 95% convinced that she will be alright! :wahoo: 

Thankyou again to everyone for your :hug: and ray:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am still praying for her... ray: ...it does look really good.... that she will be OK...... ray: :hug:


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

Charlotte is still on my pray list... ray: ...so praying that she fully recovers!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

fingers crossed!! OH please Lord help Charlotte to be fully healed ray:


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

How is she today? I'll keep praying for her, it sounds like she's improving ray:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

how is she today keren? ray: :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

36 hours off the anti-inflammatory and she is barely passing any urine  

Will call the vet to get some more Flunixil. 

Flunixil has many side effects including stomach ulcers and a few other nasties, which is why the vet didnt want to leave her on it long-term. I will ask her today if there is something else that is a bit safer for long term use (maybe for dogs and cats) since it looks like she needs it for longer.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

:hug:sorry! hopefully she'll be coming off of it soon though!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh no...........I didn't want to hear that....  ... there has to be a reason ..............it seems like there is some kind of infection maybe going on in there ........to make her swell.....because the antiflamitory(sp) med worked.....temporally the blockage was unblocked..... it worked.....
but the reason for cause is still there.......infection of some sort maybe? :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

pam, the urine analysis was completely clear so the lab says no infection ... :shrug: but your thoughts were about the same as mine :shrug: she's still on high doses of antibiotics just in case


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

wow......how aggravating.....maybe retest her? I swear... like you ......it seems like infection......... :shrug: :hug:

what kind of antibiotics are being used?

Banamine is a anti inflammatory drug....


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Antibiotics are TetraVet which is an oxytetracycline, and Trisoprim, which is a sulfanomide. 

Banamine is the same thing as Flunixil. Both can cause vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, loss of appetite, stomach ulcers and kidney impairment when used long term


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It sounds like the right stuff being used...... :scratch: :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Just rang Stacey, she is letting me do two more days of Flunixil  not exactly sure what that is gonna achieve, I still think its only a short term solution, call me pessimistic but I think in three days time I am gonna be back in this same situation again. :/


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> 2) Urinary tract infection which has spread to the kidneys (cant remember the name for it) - this is pretty serious and needs antibiotics for 4 - 6 weeks


An infection could be in the kidneys.....


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

What about prednisone? I personally don't like the stuff, but it can be used to bring down inflammation.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

how is charlotte keren? :hug:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

correct that the fluxinil can cause a large amount of issues, but as mentioned, if you are finding signs of relief, what is it going to hurt for a few more days.

The prednisalone is a great option - just remember it is started at a high dose and it has to be weened down - DO NOT take her straight off of it. Also make sure that you have alot of water out for her as pred makes them drink alot and pee alot because they drink alot - LOL!

I hope things start improving more for you.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

she fantastic, because she's on the flunixil again 

 fantastic when she's on it, terrible when she's off it

Saturday morning she will be re-evaluated, but I honestly think I am gonna have to put her down ... 

I was talking to my friend and mentor who bred charlotte and got me started in boer goats about this last night ... basically my thought process on the whole thing, on friday she was so sick and I almost put her down then, but I wasnt ready for it, and I wanted to try anything. Then I thought maybe I was being selfish and I should have just put her down straight away. Then she got so good on the flunixil, and I thought thank goodness I didnt put her down, because this is working and she is going to recover. And now that I've seen that once she's off it she gets worse again, now I'm back to thinking she needs to be put down. 

But the thing is, it would have been easier (not that its easy, its the hardest thing I've ever had to do) to put her down on Friday when she was so so sick, and in pain and suffering, and looking at me asking for help. But now I've seen that she can be a normal, happy, carefree goat while she's on the flunixil, it just makes it that much harder to euthanase a goat that is happy and not in pain, than one that is obviously in pain. 

:tears: did any of that make sense?

I dont know if I mentioned it earlier but she is my first registered goat, my first show winner. And I dont have any doe kids to keep from her. We've been through a lot together between all the shows and publicity appearances, and the caesarian. 

My friend/mentor/Charlotte's breeder has been so supportive through all of this; she offered to pay for the surgery if that was an option (its not) and has also said that if she has to be euthanased she will give me Charlotte's mother, and a stud service, so I can repeat the breeding that gave me charlotte.

Allison, just saw you posted while I was typing this, the problem is we are looking at months or forever with the flunixil (or whatever we use), not just a few more days. The prednisone does sound good but isnt registered for use in goats here


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> My friend/mentor/Charlotte's breeder has been so supportive through all of this; she offered to pay for the surgery if that was an option (its not) and has also said that if she has to be euthanased she will give me Charlotte's mother, and a stud service, so I can repeat the breeding that gave me charlotte.


 wow.... that is a very hard thing to do ....no matter how you look at it........  
Your friend/mentor is one in a million......she needs to be commended in the highest way......for doing that for you........that is spectacular .....that you will get another offspring ....out of charlotte's mother.......it eases some pain..... but I know.... it cannot bring back charlotte... if you are to put her down.........I sympathize deeply for you ...and keren .....you have done so much for charolette .....and tried so hard to heal her....to no avail ......I am so sorry....my deepest sympathies go out ...to you... :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

toth boer goats said:


> Your friend/mentor is one in a million......she needs to be commended in the highest way......for doing that for you........that is spectacular .....


You can say that again


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

pred may not be "labeled" for goaties - but either are alot of things that we use on them - :wink: 

IF, and that is a big if, you wanted to try it, what could it hurt?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> You can say that again


 :hug:



> pred may not be "labeled" for goaties - but either are alot of things that we use on them - :wink:
> 
> IF, and that is a big if, you wanted to try it, what could it hurt?


 that is true ....... :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

kelebek said:


> pred may not be "labeled" for goaties - but either are alot of things that we use on them - :wink:
> 
> IF, and that is a big if, you wanted to try it, what could it hurt?


The problem is getting the vet to prescribe it for me ... they are quite reluctant to give drugs that arent registered ...


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I'd really try to get her to give you some predisone. They can be on a low dose of it long term. It has side effects, but if they aren't too bad for her than it may be worth it.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

from what I read, prednisone isnt real good for pregnancies, is that right?

if I can keep her alive, I definitely want to breed from her ...


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

not neccesarily good while pregnant, but after off of it - don't see why not. I had many dogs on pred for years (low doses) and did just fine...... wish you weren't in Australia - I would so hook you up!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

okay, so far I am looking into prednisone, and aspirin (suggestion from another forum) - any thoughts on the aspirin?

lol thanks Allison


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Aspirin might work....it is just hard on the gut.....

how about baby aspirin?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

more bad news

just went out to see her, and she is having difficulty piddling, even with the flunixil :tears: 

my friend is coming over to take some photos of her, and me, and then I'll have to decide when to take her in to the vet


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

:hug: I was so praying for her to be improved, I am thinking of you both :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh no.......I am so sorry keren....... :hug:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh so sorry Keren :hug: 

Thats great that you will have the pictures though, I missed that with 3 goats of mine and I make up for it every day not with pictures of my goats - I never want to be without picture memories.


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## Shelly (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm so sorry you're going through such a rough time. Shelly



> :tears: did any of that make sense?


Yes I've been in the same situation. Having to put down an animal that looks and acts fine is the hardest thing I've done. Even knowing the pain that is to come if you don't.


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

So sorry Keren, my thoughts are with you :hug: ......it is never easy to make the choice to put a pet down.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

well, I'm pleased to report its not over yet ... I went out to get some photos, played around with her in the grass and she piddled heaps :greengrin: and has been normal ever since. Think I may have just scared myself earlier

A friend mentioned phenylbutazone ... its sounding very promising, will talk to the vet about it :thumb:


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: So praying that she will be ok and the new med will work!!!!!!!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

well, I've been googling for ages, I've signed onto about a dozen different forums (horses, cats, dogs, cattle, you name it, I'm on it lol) and come up with a short-list of different drugs I want to discuss with stacey when I next see her. 

Top of the list are bute and metacam

There's also some natural remedies too 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed ...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I pray..... it all works out.......... ray:


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

hope everything goes well!!!!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I was afraid to check in here because I expected the worst. Wow thats great that she peed on her own so easily. WOOT I hope that it isnt false hope for you though


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

oh stacey, its been a ridiculous rollercoaster, my hopes are going up down left right and all over the place. 

bute is being crossed off my list, apparently its not to be given to goats ... nasty reactions according to my friends vet ... 

will look into metacam (meloxicam) now plus some natural remedies ...


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I feel for you :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

So stressful ......not an easy thing .....to have to go through..... :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Well I figured it was time for an update. 

So, the first round of treatment, she had Flunixil for three days, then after 36hrs off the drug she had reached a critical level and was unable to pee. So she got another round of Flunixil, three days again, the good news is this time she lasted 48 hrs off the drug before she reached the critical stage. So she has been put onto another round of Flunixil, this time for 7 days, and it will be interesting to see how she goes after that. 

I've got quite a long list of alternative drugs to discuss with the vet and also some surgery possibilities from another vet. So all is good at the moment, all those things will be adressed at the end of this round of Flunixil. 

The little tart was in season AGAIN today ...


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

Keren....thanks for the update on Charlotte.....everyone is pulling for her and you! :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

yes ....thanks for the update.....it is sounding better from the last time you had reported......I will pray.... every day .....to get her well again.... and be back to her normal peeing self ...... :hug: ray:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

been a while since an update

we did the 7 day course flunixil and now after 4 days she is very bad again

I'm going to see the vet about trying meloxicam (metacam) which a large goat breeder recommended, much gentler on the gut

the flunixil I think is constipating her

anyway, I'll let you know how it goes, I have to figure out how to change the tyre on my truck first lol that could be interesting


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

well, still havent got onto the vet. earlier when I was about to ring and change the tyre on my truck, lambs #5 and #6 arrived so that took quite a bit of time. Then after about an hour of fiddling with my truck I finally figured out how to get the spare wheel off (its underneath) then realised that the spare, and BOTH front tyres were bald :roll: so I rang the mechanic to see if he could put new tyres on, so off I headed to town, got the tyres, came back, now my vet does farm calls and surgery till 2pm and it was ten mins to two, so I rang at two she was still out on house calls, they said try at three. So I just rang at three and she's in a consult, ring back in 15 min. 

Argh, crazy sort of a day.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

okay so I just called Stacey the vet. we are on our last option here. there is a small ruminant specialist at charles sturt university (my uni!) who stacey is going to call now and speak with, about the possibility of referring Charlotte to her (the specialist). 

stacey figures we have three options:

1. put her back on flunixil (metacam she said probably has no more advantages and is more expensive)
2. refer her to the csu small ruminant specialist
3. euthanase

so stacey is going to try and call the specialist and then call me back sometime this afternoon

I'm playing the waiting game again :worried:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

so stacey briefly spoke to the specialist - she is very interested, but was taking her children to ?swimming lessons? or some sort of sports lessons lol and is going to call stacey at 5pm for more info on the case, after which stacey will call me. in the meantime I am going to head in and grab some more flunixil to keep her comfortable until the specialist sees her


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## cdtrum (Aug 25, 2008)

Oh Keren....bless your heart for doing everything you can for Charlotte.....what we won't do for our animal babies.....Good Luck and keep us posted......still praying and pulling for her!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Keren..........you are sure going through alot with your precious charlotte...very stressful ......she is so well worth it......I am praying... that she will be healed soon........... ray:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

we have a consult booked with the specialist on friday at 2.15pm (thats tomorrow for our time zone)

meanwhile she is back to her normal peeing self on the flunixil, and in season again :roll: since she got crook she's been in season more or less every 5 days. must mention that to the vet. she'd make an excellent teaser for semen collection lol

stacey said the specialist said she was very very interested in the case, so that sounds promising!

we will see what happens ... this really is the last chance for her, if the specialist cant do much I think I will have to go ahead and put her down


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Bless your heart! Charlotte is a very special girl isn't she :hug: 

Her being in heat every 5 days would cause me to question wether or not this thing with her urinary tract is hormonal....or it has caused her to be hormonal :shrug: 

Great that the specialist will see her, I hope it all goes in your favor :hug:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

thats real crazy Keren - no one can say you havent gone the extra 2 miles with her!!! :hug:


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## alyssa_romine (Oct 5, 2007)

im sorry to hear about your bad luck with your goat. hopefully they can help her :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am still praying for Charlotte... ray: ...please dear Lord ...make her better..... ray: :hug:


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## greatcashmeres (Jul 13, 2008)

Prayers for both Charlotte and you. So sorry you both have been through so much.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

okay, so we had a consultation with the small ruminant specialist yesterday. the specialist - karrianne was FANTASTIC! she spent almost half an hour just looking at her, poking and prodding, asking me questions, watching her, etc. charlotte obligingly peed for her so she could see that it was reasonable but not 100% (this is while on the flunixil). then we took her into the surgery, she stood on the dog scales, she's lost 5kg (11 lbs) in 2 weeks so there's no question that this is a problem which needs to be solved. then we stood charlotte on one of the exam tables (the same one she had the caesar on lol) so the specialist could have her at almost head height to do an ultrasound. charlotte was amazingly good - how many goats will stand stock-still, never move a muscle, on a very small table, while people poke and prod you and put cold goop on your belly. anyway, the specialist ultrasounded for almost 45 mins, said the bladder looks very normal, the kidneys look normal, every thing looks fine. took a while to find the kidneys because the vet didnt have a trans-rectal probe (charlotte said thank god!) so they had to be found from the outside. 

anyway, the specialist was stumped. she agreed that the problem had to be a constriction of the urethra, but WHY is the question. Why it took 8 months from the caesarian to when we've had problems is a mystery. now she said - and I was pleased to hear it - "she's certainly not sick enough that you would contemplate euthanasia" and I hadnt even brought it up. I was thinking she'd say that she couldnt figure it out, and that we should put her down. but nope, neither karrianne or stacey think so. but, the problem being she cant stay on the flunixil. karrianne said if the drug was risk free, then that would be our solution, but its not. 

so, she suggested we get in touch with a pharmacologist out at the university to get his opinions on alternative drugs. we went home because we couldnt get a hold of him, stacey said she'd call me. she called just when I'd got home, said the pharmacologist agrees with what is causing it, and would like to try her on bute (phenylbutazone). He wants to see if that will help, or if its something specifically in the flunixil. anyway, last shot of flunixil last night, and dad is picking up the bute for me today, she will be started on that tonight. powder that goes in her food.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Hopefully this new drug works....and she won't be getting any more needles. Sounds like you have an awesome compassionate vet on yours and Charlottes side. :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

charlotte......is such a sweety......what a good patient...  ..It is sounding hopeful....and of course..... I am still praying for her........ ray: 
I love your vets ....they are really compassionate and care about animals.....you are very lucky to have them......... :hug: ray:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

thats quite the ordeal you have been going through. I am sure it has got to be costing you a pretty penny (or whatever the small coin denomination you use  ) for all this, I can't even imagine!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

ugh, Stacey, I'd rather not know!

I gave them $150 the other day and still have $700 on the bill ... :sigh: luckily they let me pay it off


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I am not saying you need to put her down.........but they may see her as not sick enough to put down but they arent paying for all this!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I have spent lots of money on vet bills...........but it is so worth it.... in my heart......to try to save a precious life........and when I do..........it makes me feel so good inside....  ......until I see the bill....... :shocked:   but...........then I see.. that my beautiful animal is still alive and well.......  then it's OK again..... :hug: 

Even if .....I do spend all that money and fail.........to me ...it is still.... so worth it ........ :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Stacey, I get what you are saying completely. I had a chat with Stacey the vet at the start of all of this, I told her I could justify a small ongoing cost, and/or I could justify surgery up to $1200 but no more. 

Pam knows the story behind charlotte the harlot ... not many of my goats would get this sort of treatment but she is one in a million. Even if we have to euthanase after all of this, I wouldnt regret spending the money. 

On another note ... getting her to eat the bute has become WWIII! I expressed my concern to Stacey that she might not eat it, or enough of it to get a full dose ... because goats are so fussy ... she said that it doesnt have a taste, and even the fussiest horses have no problem eating it. Well! Charlotte the harlot can delicately eat AROUND the bits with the bute, and spit out bits of her food if necessary :hair:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes ....keren I do know....she is a beautiful doe......and worth over a million.... :hug: 



Can you maybe smash the butte and put it in a syringe with water....it may be easier to get it down her throat?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Ha! We just figured it out. 

Piece of bread with a tiny bit of butter to make the bute stick to it ... it went down no problems at all! Now I gotta figure out if butter is bad for goats ...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:wahoo: alright that is good......... :thumbup: 


About the butter...........hmmm....I'm not sure...I wouldn't see why ...it would be bad.... it is dairy ...........in which goats can drink there own milk ...in which... has cream in it ...which makes butter LOL :wink: ....... :shrug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Well I'm pleased to report that the harlot is eating her bread, butter and bute lol and .... wait for it .... peeing BETTER than she was on the flunixil! :greengrin: slightly constipated, but according to the vet that shouldnt be because of the drug ...


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:wahoo: :leap:  
that is Amazing.......sounds great......Alright Charlotte.....you go girl :thumbup: :hug:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Thats wonderful news!!!

The constipation is likely something else...even the small amount of bread could do it, just add more butter, it'll lube her up!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> The constipation is likely something else...even the small amount of bread could do it, just add more butter, it'll lube her up!


 :ROFL:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

with everything else going on ..... how is Charlotte?? I know you are on a trip now so hopefully we get an update soon.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> with everything else going on ..... how is Charlotte?? I know you are on a trip now so hopefully we get an update soon.


 Yes keren ...how is Charlotte.....our beautiful girl....... ray: :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

she is doing well on bute ... eating her bread, butter and bute sandwiches lol

she is having 1/3 of a sachet (1g to a sachet) morning and night, we tried to wean her down to 1/3 only once a day but that didnt work, so she gets it twice and all is good. 

I will turn her in with the buck next time she comes in season, see what happens!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so glad... she is hanging in there......thanks for the update keren.............still going to continue to pray... for her..... ray: :hug:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

so will she have to be on bute for the rest of her life?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

probably, Stacey

the pharmacologist isnt too worried because goats metabolise so fast, he said even with the flunixil she could have TWO shots daily and the side effects we were worried about wouldnt even be a problem. so it is unlikely that the bute is going to cause any problems long term. plus its easier to give (no injections) and much, much cheaper (30 cents a day compared to $3 a day for flunixil)


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well if it works.........people are on medications daily for their health as are dogs and cats so why not a goat??


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thats the way I see it too :greengrin:


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