# Help me learn about conformation by commenting on my ND junior doe!



## wheel-bear-o (Jul 6, 2020)

We retained this 7mo girl because her dam has my favorite teats of all time. I tend to breed for milk production, butterfat and udders that are comfortable for hand milking, but I would like to improve our other physical traits as well and I'm hoping someone can help me learn. Josie is hard to photograph "set up" because she is too cuddly, so I've just got some simple standing photos of her, however if these aren't sufficient I will get a brigade together to hold her!


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Pretty girl!

If you could get more pictures of her that would be great!! It would be nice if there was no fence in the way and shorter or no grass to see her pasterns better. It would also be a little more helpful if the pictures were more straight on. I completely understand the struggle to get good pictures of goats, especially when all they want is to be up in your face. 😁


----------



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Hey, @wheel-bear-o, it's nice to see you again. 🙂

I agree with Dandy. More pictures would help, but I think she has a promising look to her.


----------



## wheel-bear-o (Jul 6, 2020)

Ha! Thank you both so much for the encouragement (and hi Mellon <3). She is just the wiggliest goat I've ever seen in person so I know these still aren't great, but we will get better.


----------



## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

wheel-bear-o said:


> Ha! Thank you both so much for the encouragement (and hi Mellon <3). She is just the wiggliest goat I've ever seen in person so I know these still aren't great, but we will get better. (Something about her face and countenance reminded me strongly of her granddam https://www.oldmountainfarm.com/sweet-goat-farm-violet-crawley who I adore, more than all her siblings and half-siblings this year.)
> View attachment 213418
> 
> View attachment 213422
> ...


I think there are a lot of nice things about her. Are her legs actually crooked or is it just the way she is standing?


----------



## wheel-bear-o (Jul 6, 2020)

Rancho Draco said:


> I think there are a lot of nice things about her. Are her legs actually crooked or is it just the way she is standing?


Just the way she's standing. At least one thing I can say for sure is that she's symmetrical.


----------



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm going to be completely honest, so I hope I don't sound offensive. 😅

I don't see anything about this doe that is overly well conformed, but I also don't see anything that is overtly terrible either.

Here's what I'm seeing:

Average length
Average depth
Steep rump (that's a fault)
Poor brisket extension.
Her width seem only okay, neither very narrow or very wide. That first picture in the grass makes her look a lot wider, maybe she's better than she seems on the truck.
She does seem to "Toe out" which means her back hooves point out and aren't parallel to her body. (That's a fault)
I'd like to see a lot higher eschutcheon
Topline needs to be more level
Pasterns could really be stronger in the front.

Overall she isn't bad, but at least to my eye she doesn't really excel anywhere. She is super cute though, so that is a bonus.😉


----------



## wheel-bear-o (Jul 6, 2020)

Oh you don't sound offensive at all! This is all really helpful. Of those the only specific faults I had been able to identify on my own were the steep rump and pasterns. She is much wider in person, but like I said we are mostly focused on dairy production here so it's great to have other characteristics to actually be aware of to improve. 


One question: when you say "average length," would there be a length that would somehow be preferable here?


----------



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

wheel-bear-o said:


> One question: when you say "average length," would there be a length that would somehow be preferable here?


A doe being long in the body is a positive in conformation. I'd like to see more a little more length to her based on the pictures in the truck. The grass pictures do make her look longer, so it's hard to make a complete true judgement on that over the internet. What I'm looking for is that a doe looks more like a rectangle from the side than a square.


----------



## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> I'm going to be completely honest, so I hope I don't sound offensive. 😅
> 
> I don't see anything about this doe that is overly well conformed, but I also don't see anything that is overtly terrible either.
> 
> ...


I agree. Nothing is stands out as bad or good, she runs somewhere in between. Is she an improvement on her dam?


----------



## alwaystj9 (Apr 10, 2019)

This is awesome, I wish this resource had been available to me when I got started!


----------



## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Along with what the others said, I noticed her teats tend to point out a bit instead of down. That may change with an udder full of milk.

When she is standing in the truck bed, she is sort of hunched up with her hind feet placed well under her body. That will take away from her length. The liner may be slippery and making her nervous, hence the hunch and the toes out legs. In the grass shots, her legs are placed in a better, more natural position making her body look longer.


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

I agree with what has been said. I also agree that she looks nervous in the truck bed which makes her hunch up, leading to her chine looking weak, then her loin roached, and making her rump look steeper then I think it really is. I totally get how hard it is to get good pictures though. I tried stacking three times with my girls over this summer and still only ended up with a few decent ones. I have learned a lot since then and realized that food is a huge help to me. I also found it really helps when you know and understand more about conformation, I'm sure you'll get there soon enough. Because those pictures aren't very flattering for her, a critique isn't going to be too accurate. I really encourage you to try getting pictures of Josie again, and I have some stackings tips for you below that are really helpful for me and hope they help you as well. 🥰

First off, if possible, stack on concert, stones/gravel, or even short grass will do. Basically, you want to be able to see her pasterns and most (if not all) of her hooves.

Secondly, make sure legs are lined up and square under her body as possible. Front legs under shoulders, back legs (hocks) in line with hips (or there abouts).

And thirdly, like I said before, food is very helpful! I don't think I could stack without it-lol! Hold the food they that hold their head up and out (not too far though).

Here's a picture of me stacking my buckling. See how his legs are pretty square under his body? I will say, I do wish I would of placed his front legs just a touch back, but hey, nothing is perfect! I also wish he wasn't looking up and that I would have stacked him on concert or stones, but again, nothing is perfect. Overall, I'm pretty happy with how this picture turned out compared to my does' pictures. 









Now, I will say, practice makes "perfect" and that is so true with stacking!! But I think if you follow my tips, you should end up with some better conformation pictures and then I can give Josie a critique (if you can't get different pictures, then I can try to critique the ones you already have if you want)!

Hope this helps! Good luck stacking!

Note: I hope I didn't sound rude/mean in ANY way!! If so, I'm very sorry and didn't mean too. I just wanted to share some stacking tips with you. 😉 😊


----------



## littleheathens (Apr 27, 2019)

This is so helpful! It would be great to have a separate thread for photographing goats well. I'm sure lots of us would continually reference that and add tips we've found that work well. (I've never even heard "stacking" used this way- but it makes sense!)


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

littleheathens said:


> It would be great to have a separate thread for photographing goats well. I'm sure lots of us would continually reference that and add tips we've found that work well.


That's a great idea! It would definitely be a great learning experience for everyone (myself included) wanting to learn more about conformation and stacking! I might just have to start a thread like that soon if no one else does...


----------



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> That's a great idea! It would definitely be a great learning experience for everyone (myself included) wanting to learn more about conformation and stacking! I might just have to start a thread like that soon if no one else does...


Please do! I’d gladly take part in it.


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Kaitlyn said:


> Please do! I’d gladly take part in it.


Ok, great!! I'm going to start making a thread right now!

Edit: here it is Dairy Goat Conformation + Stacking Tips!!!


----------



## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

I like her length of body. Her hair could be making her chine look a little dippier than it is. She toes out front and rear. She also looks like she's at that awkward fugly stage kids go through. I try not to look at my keepers until they're past that.


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

CrazyDogLady said:


> She also looks like she's at that awkward fugly stage kids go through. I try not to look at my keepers until they're past that.


Yes!! I completely agree! I was going to mention that, but entirely forgot (oops). Thanks for bringing that up!

And just to show you @wheel-bear-o HOW much they can change, here's comparison pictures of my Nigerian Dwarf doe.

These two pictures were taken when Lucy was around 7 months old. I was getting really worried about her wavy topline!!


















In this picture Lucy is 9 months old. Look have much more level she is!! I did not pinch her down in this picture. Please excuse the bad stacking job, I have learned a lot since taking these pictures. Lucy actually has a decent brisket too - just bad camera angle, and stacking job.


----------



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Yay! I have renewed hope for my Murphy's topline!


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> Yay! I have renewed hope for my Murphy's topline!


Yay!! Don't give up on a goat's conformation until they are fully mature.😁


----------

