# Johne's Scare



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Needless to say, I am very stressed about this situation. I almost didn't post because it's super embarassing but nobody else understands the possible implications of this and I need your support.

A 2.5 year old doe that was bred and born on our farm began scouring several weeks ago. All the typical avenues have not resulted in a cause or solution and the scouring is severe. (Without going into every detail, her FAMACHA is perfect, appetite good, no fever, and I have used pepto bismol, scourcheck, toltrazuril, and dewormer combinations to no avail just in case they were sneaky winter worms that didn't show eggs in the fecal analysis.) I strongly suspect that Johne's disease blood test will come back positive. She is the right age. And obviously I will regret every biosecurity decision I've made the past 3 years! The herd last tested clean of CAE, Johne's, and CL in 2014. But I have not been as rigorous with new goat additions in recent years (not bringing in any obviously diseased goats, but the risk is still there.)

If the test is positive, I will need to decide whether to proceed with testing & culling the entire herd numerous times over the next few years until our vet helps me declare the herd free of Johne's or just auctioning the entire herd marked for meat only.

Are Johne's positive animals safe for human consumption? I know there is some link to Crohn's disease in humans but I wasn't sure if that was milk consumption only.

Our vet comes Monday for the blood draw. Planning to use UBRL in CA for the testing.

The implications, including possibly needing to contact buyers I have sold kids to the past few years, are all overwhelming.

I'm trying to stay a little hopeful that maybe it's some freak bacterial issue with only 1 goat of 16 in the doe herd presenting.

Photo is Burrata (the doe in question) and her 2018 single doe kid this past spring, her first kidding.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I am so sorry. I can't imagine how heartbreaking this is. I sure hope she comes back negative.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Hopefully the test will be negative and the veterinarian can help with the scours. Prayers.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well my friend there is not much you can do till it shows she has or doesn’t have it. So try and take a deep breath. I would be freaking out too but I would be trying not to. Try to read up on it the best you can, it won’t hurt to do so even if she does come back negative. I should even take my own advise since I admit I don’t know a whole lot about the disease. 
I have never heard that you can not eat the meat though. I am very sorry you are going threw this and I hope that it comes back negative. (Hugs)


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

This is a scary thing to have to face. I truly hope she turns out negative. Are you going to have a fecal exam as well, or only the blood test? I was thinking a fecal would be more accurate in a case like this where a goat is actually scouring, but it's been awhile since I researched Johne's.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Damfino said:


> This is a scary thing to have to face. I truly hope she turns out negative. Are you going to have a fecal exam as well, or only the blood test? I was thinking a fecal would be more accurate in a case like this where a goat is actually scouring, but it's been awhile since I researched Johne's.


I have been doing a lot of reading and am going to get my vet's opinion Monday on sending both a fecal and a blood sample at the same time. I think you are correct, the fecal test is more accurate once they have presented symptoms. BUT it can take 3-4 months to get the results from it! It's a very long test and obviously more costly than the blood test.


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

Having watched a friend go through this with her dairy cattle I feel for you. Hoping for a negative result. 
Please take the extra time and money to get the fecal test done, the blood test is not very accurate. What lab are you sending the tests to? Some are better than others.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Wow. I didn't realize a fecal would take so long! Seems odd doesn't it. It seems if they were doing a fecal exam they could look not only for Johne's bacteria but also for other bacterias that might cause her to scour. I guess it's always more complicated than it seems. 

I read up extensively on Johne's when I first started breeding goats five years ago, so my memory is a little shaky, but it seems that Johne's mostly thrives in overcrowded pens with filthy bedding and they pick it up as kids but don't present symptoms until 2-3 years old. If I recall correctly, it's more difficult for adults to contract it (can they?). I imagine as with most bacterias, healthy kids kept in clean pens should be more capable of resisting the bacteria even if it's present in small amounts. I know we hear a lot of gloom and doom with diseases like this, but I'm starting to feel more and more that if we avoid overcrowding, keep our pens clean, and do our best to avoid feeding from the ground, even if we do get a sick animal through, it is unlikely to doom our entire herd and their offspring. There is a lot to be said for good herd management practices, which I'm sure you maintain.


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

If I remember correctly the reason the fecal testing takes so long is they grow a culture of the bacteria to confirm it.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Hope it is negative.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I was planning to use UBRL in California for blood tests. I don't see a lot of labs offering the fecal tests for goats (they have to grow both the sheep and cow strains). WADDL reports a reporting time of 6 months for goat fecal but I'm not clear they offer it. I'll have to discuss with my vet.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Praying it comes back negative!


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I think that fecal is worth it for sure. I was talking with our state vet and she was telling me its just the gold standard and so much more accurate. That false negatives and false positive are just too common with the blood test. 

Big hugs and I hope you get a negative result and can relax.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

How scary! I sure hope it turns out negative. What percentage of goats do they estimate have Johnes? 

Sending good thoughts and prayers your way!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

http://adga.org/johnes-disease/
this may help

i am so sorry
hope test comes back negative


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

This is from the OCR article on Johne's

"*The good news is that Johne's Disease is not believed to be transmittable from goats to people* but this has not yet been established scientifically. Much of the literature used in the preparation of this article was furnished by Bob Glass, President of Pan American Vet Labs, in Hutto, Texas (near Austin). Pan American tests for CAE and CL, in addition to providing Johne's testing. Contact him at 1-800-856-9655 for further information or email [email protected]."

Here is the link to her entire article.
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/johne'sdisease.html
Katey, I am so sorry. You must be frantic.
:crazy: We'll be here.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

https://johnes.org/goats/diagnosis/ seems very authoritative. I'm not sure I understand it all, but you have a vet that could help you if you needed more explanation.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Sending prayers your way for a negative test result!
I'm so sorry you're going through this.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

mariarose said:


> https://johnes.org/goats/diagnosis/ seems very authoritative. I'm not sure I understand it all, but you have a vet that could help you if you needed more explanation.


This was very informative! Looks like the PCR test is a lot faster than the culture and it's just as accurate. The blood tests only catch an infected goat 30-50% of the time because the animal doesn't make antibodies until the later stages of the disease. So basically it will go undetected by blood test in the beginning stages. However, if you get a positive, there's only a 1% chance that it was a false positive.

I'm thinking since your goat is in the later stages of the disease (if in fact it is Johne's) then you have a better chance of the blood test finding the antibodies.

I'm so sorry for what you're going through. HUGS!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Thank you all. I am reading the links. I am counting down the hours until the vet arrives Monday and will go straight to the post office to mail it so I can at very least have the blood results before Christmas. I think I will ask my vet to draw blood on her dam and full sister 2 years younger since it most likely to be contracted by newborn goats.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I really appreciate all the support and also the wishes for a negative results


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Just a thought and I’m sorry if it makes you have more to think about and stress over  what about instead of sending in the blood since the blood test is not all that accurate you start to gather poop from the other herd mates and send them in to get that show on the road since it takes so long to get the results back? At least then if she comes back negative you will know for sure what everyone is at and you won’t have to stress over this again. Or if it does come back positive it will help you decide what to do with the rest.
I’m just thinking here. I’m sure it will all depend on what you decide should happen IF she does come back positive. If you think you Will sell everyone I guess you probably don’t want to put the money into everyone being tested. 
I’ll tell you what though, after this I am going to take the whole “tested negative for johnes” with a grain of salt!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Alright, the vet visit is complete. We decided to submit a fecal sample to WADDL (laboratory in Washington) for both fecal analysis for parasites and a PCR Johne's test. The PCR is supposed to be as accurate as the culture but takes less than a week! 

After reviewing my records with the vet and the herd history in general - he was still optimistic that it was not Johne's. I countered that no goat scours THIS long with parasites and is still alive. We're going on 3.5 weeks of scouring. He rated her body condition score at 2.5

We did note that I was pretty far behind on my mineral supplementation and perhaps that is allowing a parasite bloom. She got Replamin Plus, MultiMin90, copper bolus, and injectable A,D, & E today while we had her caught. 

Him and his tech that travels with him even used their trimmers to shave up her entire back end which was so nice of them, I'm sure she feels better. 

Headed to the Post Office to mail the sample in an hour! Should have results early next week.
My credit card hurts right now ($200 vet visit, plus another $95 to WADDL) but I need to have the answer and this was the best way to get it.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh and I review my records, the entire herd was tested in 2015. However, I have purchased 4 un-tested does since that time, but all of them are now past the age where they should show Johne's symptoms if positive.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Well. Certainly sounds hopeful. At least you can get an answer quickly.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

It won't do a bit of good to tell you to not worry, but, try not to dwell on it too much. There isn't anything you can do, to change whatever outcome is going to happen. That said, it sure sounds like you have some hope. And that is better than none. We are all crossing our fingers and toes that you get a really good answer!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

E. coli could scour that long. I know.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

mariarose said:


> E. coli could scour that long. I know.


I know and the one thing I did forget to discuss with the vet was bacterial causes! I did already try Scourcheck red piglet liquid on her several days in a row but the dosing was estimated and maybe not enough days.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

This may sound dumb, but I don't think it can hurt at this point... My go-to now is calf scour pills. Since I lost most of my (expensive) buck herd to an undiagnosed E. Coli infection, I won't be without them.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Salmanilla is another one that can cause scours for a long time as well. I also had a doe that scoured for at least 2 months and nothing was helping her and she was wasting away. I went to cull her and my friend who bought 2 of her doelings and loved her kids wanted to try and fix her. I gave her to her and she never got better and passed. Her husband brought up johnes so she sent her in for a necropsy. It was cancer. I know that doesn’t make you feel better for this girl but I think there is a good amount of other reasons she might be like this. Fingers still crossed for you though!!!!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks guys! Neither of those came up with the vet. Good brainstorming here. 

I'll go ahead and find the calf scour boluses, never used them before but it can't possibly hurt her at this point. I'll have to check if they are okay for pregnancy. She is likely a month along and although it may be unlikely to be successful with her current state, I'd hate to cause an issue if she does end up kidding.


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

Wishing you well, hope you get positive results and turn the corner for the better!


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Sad to hear of this situation you are having. Hope for the best. Have you tired Batryl for the scours ? It works wonders on calves and I have given it to my goats with great results.


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## BorderKelpie (Mar 27, 2016)

I am going to hope for a Christmas miracle for you. May she be negative, recover quickly, produce healthy kids and thrive.

Best wishes for you.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

TexasGoatMan said:


> Sad to hear of this situation you are having. Hope for the best. Have you tired Batryl for the scours ? It works wonders on calves and I have given it to my goats with great results.


Looking it up now! Never heard of using Baytril for scours but I see it's an antimicrobial!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Keeping my fingers crossed for negative Johnes results!


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## CircusMum (Mar 27, 2018)

It might not help, but I did have two goats scour this spring for more than two months. No others in the herd were affected. After two failed courses of antibiotics and a lot of me freaking out (my poor vet!), I had a fecal done. It was E. Coli. So, it’s possible, and I hope it’s something as easily fixable for you!


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## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

I just wanted to say, I sure hope your test results come back negative!! & I can't imagine the courage it took to post here. You are the kind of person I wish to purchase from, and wished I had always purchased from.

I whole-heartedly endorse the path you ended up taking, with both the blood and fecal results. To my understanding if the blood test ends up positive, then it's generally positive; the downside of the blood test is that it does miss some earlier positives (meaning some of the negatives are false negatives)- thus the value in the fecal, the gold standard. The fecal takes so, so long because the causative agent of Johnes' is tiny- so tiny it can cross the blood-brain barrier- and grows very, very slowly (it's one of the mycobacteria; their reproductive divisions are usually measured in days, as opposed to minutes). This is also why it's a latent disease for years & years before it causes any problems. I'm not an expert, but from my understanding, even having a three year old (remember, infected in kidhood) with symptoms would be rare, with greater age at onset of symptoms being more typical.

Did your vet test at all for giardia? That's another culprit that typically won't respond to antibiotics or most wormers, and will cause diarrhea & loss of condition for an extended period of time, again often without killing the poor goat. That's also the kind of thing that most of your herd might be exposed to, but most not ever develop any symptoms. I know I've read about another protozoal cause of chronic diarrhea that I'm forgetting ATM, besides giardia... but that's at least one other possibility to run down outside of Johnes'.


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## TlC (Jun 4, 2018)

I had a Nigerian with scour for months. $500+ in vet bills and testing with no results. I had the emaciated goat put to sleep. She would eat drink and run with the herd. I remembered feeding beet pulp a week before she started scouring. 
A few weeks later I had another goat have very similar symptoms. I ran a feeding tube down his throat and dislodged a densely packed hay ball that was obstructing his esophagus. He had choke. He was getting up in age and was having teeth issues so he couldn't chew well. He started getting soaked pellets and no hay. He recovered just fine. 
I am tentative to post this but my friends herd went down hard with excessive digestive issues when a cell tower was placed over their sleeping area. Hopefully that would not be a problem for yours.


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## bamboola (May 28, 2014)

SalteyLove said:


> I really appreciate all the support and also the wishes for a negative results


More best wishes from me! ! Waiting to hear how this all comes out for you.

I live in WA and have used WADDL annually for "small ruminant biosecurity screening" (CAE, Johne's, and CL). I have had what is (I think) an unusual test result. I have one fat 9 year old wether who was born and raised with my other goats. He has never had any symptoms, but his Johne's blood test has always been "suspect" or a weak positive. When I have sent in his fecal test on multiple occasions, it has always been negative. I understand that sometimes a goat who does have Johne's can have a negative fecal test result if they are not currently "shedding" the microbes. For followup, I also had blood and fecal testing done at a lab that specializes in Johne's: 
University of Wisconsin-Madison
School of Veterinary Medicine
2015 Linden Dr., Rm 4230
Madison WI 53706-1102
Telephone: 608-263-6920
We got the same results from that lab, as well. The WADDL veterinarian kindly replied to my questions, and offered his strong opinion that my goat does NOT have Johne's. I did have a local vet once tell me that sometimes if a kid is exposed to the feces of a certain sort of pigeon that has a particular infection, they can show up as positive on a Johne's blood test. (The place where my wether was born and raised did have a LOT of bird feeders and hundreds of daily avian visitors to them!)

I know that won't help your poor, beautiful, scouring doe, but maybe this info will be helpful to someone else who has Johne's concerns. 
Bamboola


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

(((((Hugs)))))


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Unfortunately my fecal sample package got held up in transit and did not arrive until Friday the 21st. The fecal float results are back and show low egg counts... Waiting anxiously for the Johnes results.

Burrata continues to have very loose stool but is in bright spirits and good appetite. I did buy the calf scour tablets but have not administered them yet waiting on the results. I cringe to do it because handling really stresses her.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)




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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

SalteyLove said:


> View attachment 141815


I agree, those are low egg counts. At least you've got something to be happy about!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

At least parasites were low.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Does WADDL have an estimate on when the results will be back? I know recently when we had some blood work sent in, they were backed up.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

The news is bad. 

WADDL results show that Johnes was detected via the PCR test. 

We are scheduling an appointment with the vet to draw blood & test the other 20 goats. We will probably conduct that twice several months apart unless the entire herd comes back positive. 

I'm trying to decide whether to wait for the herd blood results to see how widespread it is before contacting 3 buyers who purchased doelings this year. 

I think I will post Burrata on Craigslist for a meat buyer to pick up even though she has already scoured all the facilities. Eliminating one source for now seems like a good idea. 

There are just so many things to consider. And we have kids due in 2.5 months.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

oh no !
I am so sorry


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You'll make ethical decisions. You always do.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I would test the herd and then call. I would cull that doe as well as quickly as possible to reduce risk.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Can you pull the kids at birth and bottle feed? Keep them in a new area?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Dayna said:


> Can you pull the kids at birth and bottle feed? Keep them in a new area?


Yes, I would at least try to do this, if at all possible.

I don't know if I've said, but I'm awfully sorry.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I am sorry this is happening, too.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Im so sorry you received bad news. I can only imagine how heartbreaking it is. I hope the rest of your herd is ok.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry. What awful news. So devastating. (Hugs)


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm so sorry about the test results. I know you'll make the best possible decisions for yourself and your herd. I still stand by the idea that the mere presence of a pathogen is not enough to create a disease outbreak. Immune systems also have to be receptive to it, and if the rest of your herd is healthy and you keep clean pens I don't think this will necessarily affect your entire herd or this year's kid crop. If you are concerned that any of the goats you sold might have become infected, it would be best to call the buyers and make them aware and then decide what course of action to take--whether they decide to keep their goats and test them, send them to slaughter, or sell them back to you if you'll buy them. It's a tricky situation for sure. 

In cleaning up your property, is it possible to completely scrape the ground in all common/heavily used areas and take away the top layer of dirt? You could then spray the ground with a bleach solution. I'm thinking of those power washers with the soap attachments. I wonder if you could put bleach in the attachment and have it mix with the water in the sprayer? I hear Johne's can live in the soil for ages so rotating pens for a while is probably not an option given the length of time. What a headache. I hope the rest of your herd tests clean. I know that even if they are unaffected, you'll be on pins and needles for a few years as you watch and pray. I'm really sorry the results came back this way.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Thank you all so much for all the sympathy, support, and suggestions. It really is all so helpful and appreciated. 

I'm very hopeful that all goats older than Burrata are perfectly safe and that it is not extremely widespread. But yes the work, cost, and worry of the next few years is very stressful. 

We are scheduling family for extra hands and a babysitter for next weekend to do a huge barn and pen cleaning & scraping & spraying as a starting point. 

I can not/will not pull kids and bottle at birth. All 2019 kids will be raised out for meat. Even with a thorough cleaning, I can't guarantee there won't be bacteria somewhere.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> Thank you all so much for all the sympathy, support, and suggestions. It really is all so helpful and appreciated.
> 
> I'm very hopeful that all goats older than Burrata are perfectly safe and that it is not extremely widespread. But yes the work, cost, and worry of the next few years is very stressful.
> 
> ...


Oh salty! I am so sorry for all of it!


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I am SO SORRY you are going through this! I have no advice, just hugs... (((((HUGS)))))


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Big hugs, I get not being able to or willing to bottle feed. That makes perfect sense. Raising them up for meat does sound ideal. I'm so sorry you're having to go through this.


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## BorderKelpie (Mar 27, 2016)

What devastating news, I am so sorry.

I do really appreciate the fact that you have gone through so much effort to do things the right way instead of just covering up the problem. I know that doesn't help, but I wanted you to know that I find that brave and admirable.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh no  I was so praying for everything to be ok.


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

That's great that you have family willing to help out. I bet this is really overwhelming. I know it would be for me! Help and support makes things so much easier.

I agree that the older does that are not exhibiting symptoms are most likely ok. I've read that most goats who end up having Johne's contract it when they are kids, since that's the most vulnerable time. So, with that in mind, you might be able to track down when she could have been exposed to the Johne's bacteria. 

Also, if you blood test all the herd, I wouldn't trust the results from any goats under 2 or 3 years old since they might have it but are not yet producing antibodies. 

Eventually, you would want to set up your property to have a "clean area" and a "contaminated area." You can start by putting all the older, blood tested does in the clean area, plus all their kids born in the clean area. In the contaminated area, I would put all the younger goats and any goat that blood tested positive. Then you can eventually cull or sell the goats in the contaminated area and clean it up and then leave it vacant for at least a year. Having 2 separate areas would also help you with biosecurity between the 2. For example, feed/do chores in the clean area first, then the contaminated one last. Then clean your clothes and shoes so they are ready for next time. Or just have separate shoes or overalls for each area. 

This sounds like a lot of hard work and you have to be really disciplined to follow your plan strictly. Having guests or goat caretakers would be complicated because you'd have to explain everything to them.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

NicoleV said:


> Also, if you blood test all the herd, I wouldn't trust the results from any goats under 2 or 3 years old since they might have it but are not yet producing antibodies.(QUOTE]
> 
> My understanding from this forum, reading, and my vet is that a positive blood test is 100% positive and at some point that goat will become symptomatic and eventually die, but a negative blood test can be a "false" negative because like you said they may not be shedding antibodies yet.
> 
> ...


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

Just dropping some hugs your way, was thinking of you and your situation. I had a close friend also go through this, it’s very tough. Did you do another round of blood tests yet?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Thank you so much. I've decided to delay blood testing the herd until next month so we can have the 4 meat bucklings from last year processed and off the farm. I will definitely update this thread with results.

So far, no other goats have become symptomatic. Most notably, 2 other doelings born the same year and retained.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I know it seems silly, but I feel so relieved that Burrata is gone and there isn't scouring all over the barn. There is still plenty of reason for concern, but that part feels very relieving .


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## dnchck (Mar 24, 2014)

I am so sorry for the devastating news. I pray the rest of your herd is fine!


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## Korita (Jan 11, 2018)

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I can’t imagine. Since I’ve joined this group after beginning my own goat owning adventure, you’re one of the names that I remember and have helped me through my struggles. Lots of hugs sent your way!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

So sorry Katey! I know you will get through this like a trooper. You have knowledge, and knowledge is power. Hugs to you!


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

I'm so sorry you're going through this nightmare! I hope you will get good news with the future testing, and send hugs your way!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Scary, prayers sent.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 3, 2018)

Wow. I just read your thread, I am so sorry to hear this! How devastating. 

:hug::hug:


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm so very proud to know you, @SalteyLove You are a real inspiration.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> I know it seems silly, but I feel so relieved that Burrata is gone and there isn't scouring all over the barn. There is still plenty of reason for concern, but that part feels very relieving .


There is nothin to feel silly about sweetheart! You have had a teemendously hard go with this and the decisions to be made. One less thing to fret over is OK!

Every single day that i don't get twenty calls from mama that the world is fallin apart on her is a good day to me.... or at least how i look at it anyway. She was dx with lewy bodies dimemtia last spring and thing are gettin more and more squirrely every day here. So i take small triumphs as i can get then. That is what this is for you... or seems to me at least. . A small triumph in all the super hard things. Some days those small goods are all we can hope and pray for.


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## cristina-sorina (May 4, 2018)

What extremely difficult news to get! I'm so sorry you're going through this!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Our veterinarian is coming Monday 2/11 to draw blood from our 15 does and 1 breeding buck. I'll mail the samples to UBRL that afternoon and hopefully have results no later than that Friday. 

Only 7 of the does are bred (based on my opinion & records, not testing) because we had some buck issues last autumn. 

My plan is to sell all the kids born this year as well as any does that test positive at weaning time in June for meat only (either directly to a butcher here if the kids are heavy enough, or to a meat buyer I trust will not re-sell them.) 

In addition, if additional does test positive, all kids born in 2020 will also be meat only, since Johne's can live in the soil up to a year. 

I'll re-test any remaining does that are of risky age (less than 5 years) in another 6-12 months to confirm negative status. 

7 of my 15 does are the same age or younger than Burrata, the positive doe, was. So those are the most likely to come back positive since Johne's was active at some point when they were kids. It is highly unlikely the 8 older does are positive based on age and previous tests but I'm testing them anyway.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh Salty..Im so sorry you are dealing with this. Sounds like you have a solid plan. ((hugs))


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@SalteyLove I'm wondering how I can help, If at all?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

mariarose said:


> @SalteyLove I'm wondering how I can help, If at all?


Thank you. Just reassurance that my plan sounds sane at this point!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You always sound sane. Hugs.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

(((((Hugs)))))


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I just love our goat spot family.
You guys are super duper. (highfive)(grouphug):great::neat:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That does sound like a very good plan.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Fantastic, my samples were delivered at 9am this morning. 

I am using UBRL in California this time, shipped my samples via Priority mail on Monday afternoon. UBRL does Johne's testing on Thursdays at noon. 

With any luck I will have results tomorrow.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Fingers crossed for all negative tests!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Yes, wishing negative tests for your herd!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good luck.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Not only crossing fingers, but toes, ankles, wrists, eyes, nostrils... All sorts of Goat Yoga contortions here to placate the Cootie Gods...


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Your plan sounds solid to me! Fingers crossed for no more positives!


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

**Hugs**
So sorry you're going through this. We just had the same issue ourselves, two goats we bought last fall had Johnes disease. Luckily it did not spread to any of our other goats. 

I know you said you wouldn't pull a kid from the mom at birth and bottle feed it, and I don't know if the one that tested positive for Johnes is pregnant, but the kids can be born healthy but the disease is highly transferable through milk production. One of the two does that tested positive for Johnes was pregnant and our vet recommended we pull the kids immediately. Luckily, we got all of our test results back before our kids starting hitting the ground. Unfortunately the one sick doe didn't make it long enough to kid out.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

JearDOE Ranch said:


> **Hugs**
> So sorry you're going through this. We just had the same issue ourselves, two goats we bought last fall had Johnes disease. Luckily it did not spread to any of our other goats.
> 
> I know you said you wouldn't pull a kid from the mom at birth and bottle feed it, and I don't know if the one that tested positive for Johnes is pregnant, but the kids can be born healthy but the disease is highly transferable through milk production. One of the two does that tested positive for Johnes was pregnant and our vet recommended we pull the kids immediately. Luckily, we got all of our test results back before our kids starting hitting the ground. Unfortunately the one sick doe didn't make it long enough to kid out.


Thanks for your experience!

But since you had two positive does and Johnes can live in the soil up to a year, the kids could still contract it even if their dam is negative right?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

SalteyLove said:


> Johnes can live in the soil up to a year,


I wonder if that is in any way dependent upon the soil itself, and whatever microbes live there? I'm wondering, not telling...


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I found this


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Dwarf Dad said:


> I found this


Thank you so much, that is a fantastic publication and one that I had not come across before in my research.

It confirms that the route of exposure for MOST young animals (under a month old) is soil, although it some cases direct spread from dam.

I know that the positive goat we had (who has since been terminally culled), her dam is negative, so she must have contracted from the soil. Which is why every goat kid born on our farm this year will be meat only, because although I could find a sterile place for each doe to kid, and even if I pulled and bottled the kid, the bacteria could be ANYWHERE on our farm.

If no other goats test positive this year, then I may be able to keep goat kids next spring as it will have been more than a year since a positive goat was shedding the bacteria on our farm.

And thank goodness we have scheduled to have lime spread on all the pasture - that part of the publication was SO FASCINATING.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

SalteyLove said:


> Thank you so much, that is a fantastic publication and one that I had not come across before in my research.
> 
> It confirms that the route of exposure for MOST young animals (under a month old) is soil, although it some cases direct spread from dam.
> 
> ...


Your welcome! My wife says that I just sit here too much, I am busy! Just not moving much. Anyway, TGS and it's members have helped me a lot, so I have time to pay back when I can.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

@saltylove You totally have this Katey. You have a level head and ability to stick to the plan. You got this!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Dwarf Dad said:


> I found this


I've not experienced Johne's yet. I do appreciate the link so I can know more.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

UPLIFTING RESULTS ARE HERE!!!

Only one doe (the dam of the culled positive doe) tested positive! She is currently open so I can cull her quickly without waiting for kidding.

ALSO the entire herd tested negative for CAE!

Now I'm skeptical about two things:
1. The 2018 doeling of this second positive doe has tested negative...
2. This second positive doe is 5 years old - she should be symptomatic/dead!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

That's great news! 
I'd maybe retest Goose since you said she's older than the one you culled and she tested low, If you think there's something off with the test. I have no idea what to suggest, Im just very happy for you that it's good news


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> Thanks for your experience!
> 
> But since you had two positive does and Johnes can live in the soil up to a year, the kids could still contract it even if their dam is negative right?


Yes!! They very well can. Sorry, I think that was mentioned? I don't know. I'm tired from bottle feeding a kid every 3-4 hrs plus checking on the nannies once a night (me, my husband, and father in law go in shifts). We're looking into whether lime can speed up the process. It works for CL, but we haven't had the time to investigate. Have you heard anything about that?

Fortunately, we moved them to a former cattle kidding area that we were going to transform into a goat area anyway that was already in the works for when we grow our herd. So we rushed to get some pens set up and a few other things in the old cattle barn. I know not everyone is not as fortunate and you just have to work with what you got. We're not out of the woods yet, but things are looking good considering.

I'm glad I jumped on this thread, I've come back to print out all the shared information. I do hope your eradication of the disease goes smoothly for you. .


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

SalteyLove said:


> UPLIFTING RESULTS ARE HERE!!!
> 
> Only one doe (the dam of the culled positive doe) tested positive! She is currently open so I can cull her quickly without waiting for kidding.
> 
> ...


That's awesome Katey!
Now here is my uneducated guess....some of us here on TGS have learned to nutritionally care for our goats so well that under "normal" conditions and care would show symptoms , while sometimes ours handle things way better and for longer. I had this happen with coccidia and stomach worms. The vet could not believe they all acted and looked fine. Eyes weren't real pale and weights were good too. I only tested for worms because of some slightly clumpy poo from ONE. I know it was because of the awesome things I have learned here and implemented for them. It makes them stronger. IMO, that could be what is going on with your doe.


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> Only one doe (the dam of the culled positive doe) tested positive! She is currently open so I can cull her quickly without waiting for kidding.
> 
> View attachment 147465


WOW!! GREAT NEWS!!!!!:clapping:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Great news! If you question the one doe, retest with another lab. But that is great news!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

JearDOE Ranch said:


> Yes!! They very well can. Sorry, I think that was mentioned? I don't know. I'm tired from bottle feeding a kid every 3-4 hrs plus checking on the nannies once a night (me, my husband, and father in law go in shifts). We're looking into whether lime can speed up the process. It works for CL, but we haven't had the time to investigate. Have you heard anything about that?
> 
> Fortunately, we moved them to a former cattle kidding area that we were going to transform into a goat area anyway that was already in the works for when we grow our herd. So we rushed to get some pens set up and a few other things in the old cattle barn. I know not everyone is not as fortunate and you just have to work with what you got. We're not out of the water yet, but things are looking good considering.
> 
> I'm glad I jumped on this thread, I'll have to check out the information provided as well. I do hope your eradication of the disease goes smoothly for you. .


Yes another member @Dwarf Dad posted a publication showing that raising the pH of soil by adding lime can lower the chances of the bacteria spreading via soil!

That's awesome you had a clean place to move them for kidding and raising clean kids. My herd often free ranges over the whole property and I'm concerned the kids could pick it up ANYWHERE over the next year. It will be very sad not to keep or sell any breeding quality doelings this year but I know it's for the best.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

SalteyLove said:


> Now I'm skeptical about two things:
> 1. The 2018 doeling of this second positive doe has tested negative...
> 2. This second positive doe is 5 years old - she should be symptomatic/dead!


1. I could be wrong, but I believe your doeling is not yet old enough to begin shedding the bacteria or producing antibodies in her blood. Even if she is in fact positive, I'm pretty sure it won't show up on a test for at least another year or two.

2. I don't believe five years old is much of an outlier. The very earliest a goat will show symptoms is two, and more often 3-4. Goats with strong immune systems no doubt start wasting away at the older end of the spectrum.

I'm so happy that these results are overwhelmingly "negative"! What a relief!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

So glad for you, that only Goose has tested positive!
I believe whole heartedly what @NyGoatMom and @Damfino posted about the condition of the goats you older owners have. I am proud to be associated with all of you.
Once again, very glad for you!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

That's great for all the negatives! I feel so sorry for poor Goose.


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> Yes another member @Dwarf Dad posted a publication showing that raising the pH of soil by adding lime can lower the chances of the bacteria spreading via soil!
> 
> That's awesome you had a clean place to move them for kidding and raising clean kids. My herd often free ranges over the whole property and I'm concerned the kids could pick it up ANYWHERE over the next year. It will be very sad not to keep or sell any breeding quality doelings this year but I know it's for the best.


Yes, I'm going to go back, book mark and print out all the information I can. Thank you for creating the original post prompting all the feedback. I was going to write a post when it happened to us, but it was just so depressing I just couldn't at the time. We had just lost a doe carrying quads to pregnancy toxemia and the Johnes took a doe carrying triplets.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@JearDOE Ranch That is such a loss, I'm so sorry.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Update on moving towards a clean herd & farm: Goose (who tested low positive and was the dam of Burrata - the positive goat that started this thread) and Goose's 2018 doeling (Gosling, who tested negative) both went along to the meat buyer this past weekend. 

I also culled Goose's dam Chicago who has been having fertility issues for several years. I had considered culling the whole line before due to these fertility issues (they show the urine leakage staining on the back end that is apparently prevalent in does with fat deposits on ovaries I guess?) and Goose did not get pregnant last autumn leading me to believe it would be genetic. It's better now that it is over. I am left with only 12 does! But that line was a favorite of mine for appearance and great feet and parasite resistance (but terribly spooky temperaments/difficult to tame.)

Also, I can't say enough good things about the UBRL laboratory, their reporting is superior to other labs I have used. They also called to tell me that if I wanted to re-test Goose in a few weeks (because it was a low positive) they would not charge me the set-up fee for one sample. 

As kidding season approaches (March 6 is the first due date) - I am having a harder and harder time stomaching the fact their will be no keeper doelings! I'll stay the course because I don't want to commit to two or three years of testing only to find another positive. I'm keeping my sights on kidding 2020.

I do need to be prepared though in case triplets or quadruplets appear - I typically sell them as bottle babies. I'll have to be VERY conscientious that they stay in a relatively "sterile" kidding jug and don't expose them to potential Johne's bacteria from my boots etc. before I sell them around 3 days old. My kiddings jugs are in an area that goats do not typically have access to, but I feel the risk is there from manure tracking on boots & tires, etc.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@SalteyLove You are so amazing.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

It is heart wrenching that you are going through this.
You are always the one who checks on people who had problems.
Prayers and best wishes to you!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

This will be a hard kidding season, but kudos to you for doing the right thing. It would be much harder to see this devastating disease crop up again down the road and have to go through it all again. 

For the sterile kidding pen, I recommend getting a box of disposable boot covers and placing it right outside the pen so you don't forget. You could also hang a special coverall outside the pen that you don't wear anyplace else. Finally, you could place a disinfectant foot mat in the gateway and make sure no wheelbarrows or tools go into that area from other places. (My gosh, this brings back memories of the quarantine barn at college when strangles went through the school's horses.)


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

I'm glad you were able to sell them, although I know loosing good genetics like that can be hard.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Great ideas thanks @Damfino !

@JearDOE Ranch - "sell" may have been a bit generous a word choice on my part... $225 for 3 goats!!! But I didn't have space in our freezer and I definitely could not run them through auction in good conscience because people here will buy an animal even with a meat only tag glued on it!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You Miss Katey are an upstanding farmer!! You did the right thing, even when hard. I can only imagine how hard it was. You have a solid plan ahead and I know you will recover from this. ((hugs))


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

@JearDOE Ranch ...and I definitely could not run them through auction in good conscience because people here will buy an animal even with a meat only tag glued on it!![/QUOTE]
Isn't that the (unfortunate) truth! I pray the worst of it is over for you.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug:


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I finally got the courage up to message the three people who purchased breeding doelings last year. I just sent the messages and explained the situation and recommended they test those doelings. Fingers crossed for negative test results and for non-angry responses :-/


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That was very good of you. I hope they all come back negative.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

SalteyLove said:


> I finally got the courage up to message the three people who purchased breeding doelings last year. I just sent the messages and explained the situation and recommended they test those doelings. Fingers crossed for negative test results and for non-angry responses :-/


It's good of you to alert the buyers. Are the doelings even old enough to test though? From what I understand, you need to wait until they are at least two years old before you will get a positive Johnes result even if the goat is carrying it.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Everything I've read says 6-9months and they are a year old but I did ask them to coordinate with their veterinarians


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Hmm... one of my vets said don't even bother until they are at least two because the disease lies dormant and the blood does not start producing antibodies until the disease "comes out of hiding". 

When I first started breeding goats I ran Johnes tests on my whole herd and was happy to see all negative results. Then I started doing more research on the disease and what I read at the time told me I had just wasted my money--only one of my goats was old enough to start producing antibodies even if they had the disease (all were under two at the time). I wonder if research has changed since then, or if there is conflicting information. Might be worth revisiting.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

All of you have been so supportive throughout the trials of this thread. 

Unfortunately today I received our follow up blood tests on all our 13 breeding animals and another doe has tested positive. She is 2.5 years old, born on our farm, supporting the posts above that say testing under two years of age will not reveal the disease. I'm devastated. I thought I had the whole situation under control and now the farm is contaminated for another year and I'm faced with culling a very dear doe. And realistically, culling all animals under 3-4 years of age and also selling all 2020 kids for meat only. 

My herd will be cut down to nothing with only senior animals remaining and no replacements on the horizon. 

I also feel paralyzed because if I do decide to continue with goats, I don't know how I could ever feel confident purchasing clean animals. 

What if I continue and the bacteria lasts in the soil more than a year.. 2021 kids are infected and I won't know it until 2024 when they test at 3 years old. 

I just don't know.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Oh no! I'm so sorry  
That's got to be heartbreaking. I have no advice but send you my thoughts and prayers. ((HUG!))


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Oh no. I'm so sorry.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 3, 2018)

I have no words. I am just so sorry. I just can’t imagine what you are going through.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I have no words of wisdom...
And my words of support seem so weak and inadequate...
But I love you, and know that you'll make the best decision for you and your family once the shock of this eases. Whatever you decide to do will be the right thing. Hugs.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

I'm so sorry.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

I am so so sorry! I am not sure of the ins a d outs of this one like i am cl (having had a doe with it).... could you move the goat spaces to another part of the land while this one rests?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Sfgwife said:


> I am so so sorry! I am not sure of the ins a d outs of this one like i am cl (having had a doe with it).... could you move the goat spaces to another part of the land while this one rests?


I so wish, I just have always rejoiced in allowing the goats to free range so they have access to literally everywhere! My vet did recommend kidding out in a different barn but even then, I couldnt be sure the bacteria wasn't tracked in until those kids were 2-4 years old.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

Oh my. I am SO sorry. (((((Hugs)))))


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

Such an awful situation to go through. I know it must be really tough:hug: So sorry you are having to go through all this!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

That is awful, I’m so sorry you’re having to go through all that. I’m not sure what I would do. My thoughts are with you.


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

Wow. How heartbreaking. I wish there was more advice I could give to help.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

:imsorry::hug:


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

So sorry to see you going through this!


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Hey...please dont give up. Johnes doesnt show its ugliness until 2 yrs old. None of us are safe! Its great that you are telling us..reminding us to be careful. 
If there is any way you can fence your negative herd in an area that no births were..you can start your healing process. Liming does help kill the MAP virus. Its best to let the pasture set idle for 6 months. The lime & sun heat will help kill the virus. 
I dont know how much land you have, or if you birth in a certain area. The disease is in the afterbirth and milk. Thats how its passed to others. So if your birthing was in 1 area. Close it for the year. Lime the soil. And do your best to sterlize the structure. This will help slow and posible kill the virus. 
If you can rotate you herd to different pasture..while the other is limed and rests for 6 months..you may have better results. 
I hope this helps. So sorry for your pain & loss.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Dang... I was hoping this wouldn't happen. I'm so sorry you've had this news. I like the above suggestion of doing all the kidding in one thoroughly cleaned area. Only breed older does that have tested negative. If you can keep the kids in a clean area for those crucial first few weeks I think you should be ok. They won't be getting any bacteria through the milk from their negative mothers, and if you do a thorough job of cleaning up the kidding area and bedding it deep with clean shavings and straw, I think your little ones will not be in danger of picking up bacteria from the soil or old droppings. I would personally not breed any does under 3-4 years old because of the risk of a positive one passing it through the milk, but I think you should be able to make a safe kidding area and keep the babies off the rest of your property until they are weaned. Once their immune systems are established, they are very unlikely to pick up the bacteria even if it's still present in your soil. This means most of your property is still useable for most of the year. Best of luck!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Thank you all so much for the condolences, kind words, and helpful suggestions. It really does help. I had a very good conversation with the UBRL laboratory director Amar, they have such great customer service. He provided some additional good suggestions. The most valuable piece of information he gave me was to test the younger does 2-4 weeks after they kid this spring as that is the most likely time to see the Johnes spike due to immune suppression of kidding. That's why Opal tested negative at age 2 in February, kidded in March, and came back a high Johnes positive in November. I also should have paid closer attention to her the sign that she had lower kid weaning weights.

I haven't gotten a meat buyer to come get Opal yet, which will be ever so hard. But that's the first step in this plan.

We did just have lime spread yesterday on all the hay fields and goat pastures for hay production reasons but hopefully it will help rid us of Johnes as well.

I'm still formulating a plan of how and where to get an area cleaned of topsoil before kidding. @Damfino - your suggestion of keeping kids from older does there through weaning is a valuable one I hadn't considered. I was only thinking of the short term kidding areas.

I just wanted to clarify one thing a few folks have mentioned - Johnes is not spread through milk. It is spread to young kids through bacteria from fecal matter on the udder and teats but not via the milk itself.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Sigh... That was hard. My girl Opal is gone off the farm. A gave her a really long brushing session last night as she was only one of a few of my does that really love that type of interaction with me. He was nice buyer who seemed to treat them humanely and will feed his own family. I sold her two bucklings along with her that were in our pen of freezer goats. 

The ethics of selling a Johnes positive animal still make me uncomfortable despite the disease supposedly being throughout the commercial food chains. 

I had a long phone conversation with the veterinarian this week and shared my information from the lab director. I'm still trying to plan a way and a location to retain a few replacement doelings next year but not feeling sure that it's worth the risk.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug:


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Im so sorry for you giving Opal up. My heart breaks for you. I have learned alot through you, and all the others bearing their souls on this site. I hate your losses, but I am strengthened by your ability to research, ask for help, and make positive changes. It gives ALL of us a new tried Direction to go. I had not heard of CVV.. until a huge loss for CountyLineAcres..but Ive Never seen such a beautiful Buck as hers either. The amazing STRENGTH you and other goat owners have is amazing. Thankyou for your courage, tenacity and love of the breed to continue to do it healthy and safe! 
Keep that chin up. We are here to support you too!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

My heart breaks for you. I'm so sorry you had to give up Opal.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh Salty. Im sorry. ((Hugs)) 
I have to say how proud am of you, how you are handling this and making sure you do take measures to stop the spread. Not rushing in..but educating yourself (and us) ..not acting in fear but being steadfast. You are a role model here. Thank you!!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I'm so so sorry you had to give up Opal...I can only imagine how you must be feeling. You're an amazing woman and role model to everyone who is blessed to see the grace you're handling this difficult time. Hang in there! We are here for you.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Hear, Hear!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:bighug::bighug:


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

We received our new ABGA magazine a few weeks ago and when I saw they put out an article on Johne's I thought of you. Most of what is in the article is covered in this discussion but it gave a website for information and resources from the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine's Johne's Disease website. It says that "your state's designated Johne's Coordinator can help you undertake an on-farm risk assessment that evaluates your operation, your resources and your goats." The have a "ask the expert" feature also. I have not taken the time to look at the website. I am up to my ears trying to get things squared away this month, but I had to come post this::

www.johnes/org

I hope things start going better for you!


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

:ty::up::neat:


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Thank you @JearDOE Ranch ! Just pulled my copy from stack of mail on my desk. I'll have to see about those resources.

That article actually says the disease CAN indeed by spread in milk if the goat is in advanced stages. But all my other research indicates it's just fecal or soil contamination. Interesting.


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> That article actually says the disease CAN indeed by spread in milk if the goat is in advanced stages. But all my other research indicates it's just fecal or soil contamination. Interesting.


When we had it on our farm our vet told us that is possible but not a guarantee that it can spread from the mother's milk and advised us just to be safe that right after momma has her kid, to pull the kid and separate them. The only reason we didn't take the one positive we got (after one had already died) was because she was pregnant, though she didn't make it to term.

So sorry to hear about all your struggles. We got really lucky.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

SalteyLove said:


> That article actually says the disease CAN indeed by spread in milk if the goat is in advanced stages. But all my other research indicates it's just fecal or soil contamination. Interesting.


Its so frustrating when we don't have the whole picture. Everything I read is just fecal and soil as well. Sadly because research is not complete we should err on caution. I also think some information is heard or read somewhere and passed on as truth with no research to back it up, so we have to weed through all that too.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

happybleats said:


> Its so frustrating when we don't have the whole picture. Everything I read is just fecal and soil as well. Sadly because research is not complete we should err on caution. I also think some information is heard or read somewhere and passed on as truth with no research to back it up, so we have to weed through all that too.


So true and your post is timely!

My veterinarian is really a heck of a guy and has been making some phone calls and doing additional research to answer a couple questions I had.

But really, nobody can ever be sure, because this is what one researcher told my vet:

"Cornell vet also said that doing fecal PCRs are going to be the most sensitive way to pick up infected animals, and that for every 1 positive Elisa, there are likely 4-5 more infected animals that might be picked up on PCR."

So apparently nobody has the whole picture.

The price of the PCR... $60-82.50 per animal depending how many samples submitted.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

SalteyLove said:


> My veterinarian is really a heck of a guy and has been making some phone calls and doing additional research to answer a couple questions I had.


he sounds like a keeper!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

happybleats said:


> he sounds like a keeper!!


I agree. Try to keep him on your side!


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## Nicki4147 (May 4, 2021)

I just read through this whole thread in 2021 and now I'm invested lol. If you're still active on this board, how did everything turn out?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Nicki4147 said:


> I just read through this whole thread in 2021 and now I'm invested lol. If you're still active on this board, how did everything turn out?


You mean how many gray hairs from the stress of the experience do I have?! 

In short - we have had no more positive tests or symptomatic animals since 2019!!! 

I've been completing blood tests on the adult animals yearly until they each have 3 tests and are over age 5. In 2022 I will have my ultimate reassurance that we are disease free by testing two born-on-farm 2020 does that will kid for the first time. Once they both come back negative after the stress of kidding , I think I will feel safe. You may recall I had notified some buyers of 2018 kids of the Johnes positive and have not heard back that any positive tests resulted. We scraped topsoil in only the most utilized pen. We have continued using lime very generously in all the pens to raise the pH making it less hospitable to the Johnes bacteria and especially just before kidding. Kids stay in the kidding stalls with their dams a few days extra than normal as the stalls are in a less used part of the barn and stripped clean, supposedly exposure would be in first 5-7 days to bacteria.


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

It's been a long time since I read this thread. Did your vet ever report to the USDA? Our vet did and they were very surprised to hear about the troubles we were having. I think if more cases were reported maybe they would move to approve the drug that cures it, or at least make more of an effort to help those who have it in their herd.


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## Nicki4147 (May 4, 2021)

Good job!!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

JearDOE Ranch said:


> It's been a long time since I read this thread. Did your vet ever report to the USDA? Our vet did and they were very surprised to hear about the troubles we were having. I think if more cases were reported maybe they would move to approve the drug that cures it, or at least make more of an effort to help those who have it in their herd.


I'm going to ask him when we see him in a few weeks for annual Rabies vaccine. I did not even consider it.


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## Tulipacres (10 mo ago)

i came here because I am trying to figure out if the meat from my Johne’s positive can be consumed by my family? (Blood test showed positive. Definitely wasn’t on our radar as she has no signs of that.


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## Tulipacres (10 mo ago)

i came here because I am trying to figure out if the meat from my Johne’s positive can be consumed by my family? (Blood test showed positive. Definitely wasn’t on our radar as she has no signs of that.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm not sure but I'm sure someone knows.


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

Tulipacres said:


> i came here because I am trying to figure out if the meat from my Johne’s positive can be consumed by my family? (Blood test showed positive. Definitely wasn’t on our radar as she has no signs of that.


According to the USDA, yes, meat from a Johne's positive goat is safe for human consumption. We had our vet ask the department of USDA because we did not want to sell any Johne's positive goats for slaughter and have any issues. According to both of them, it is safe to eat.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I have a question about Johne's. From what I've read, pasturizing may or may not kill the Johne's in the milk, so, if a commercial dairy had it, sells the milk to 
grocery stores and we feed the baby goat kids, won't they get Johne's through the grocery store milk? (if pasteurization doesn't work) How would we know?
It really makes you not want to buy anything any more!


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## JearDOE Ranch (Aug 23, 2018)

Goats Rock said:


> I have a question about Johne's. From what I've read, pasturizing may or may not kill the Johne's in the milk, so, if a commercial dairy had it, sells the milk to
> grocery stores and we feed the baby goat kids, won't they get Johne's through the grocery store milk? (if pasteurization doesn't work) How would we know?
> It really makes you not want to buy anything any more!


From what I understand, USDA wasn't even aware that Johne's disease existed in the U.S. so I imagine there are no guidelines for it. Now, we do know that the disease can be passed on through the milk to the kids, so I agree, I wouldn't drink the milk either. According to our vet and the USDA, the meat of the goat is safe for consumption. 
I hope this thread brings up enough awareness that more cases are reported.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Goats Rock said:


> I have a question about Johne's. From what I've read, pasturizing may or may not kill the Johne's in the milk, so, if a commercial dairy had it, sells the milk to
> grocery stores and we feed the baby goat kids, won't they get Johne's through the grocery store milk? (if pasteurization doesn't work) How would we know?
> It really makes you not want to buy anything any more!


I have the same concern and was surprised to see somebody else think it too!  I wonder, can ultra-pasteurization kill it? I saw a statistic that 91% of dairy cattle herds in the US have Johnes. Scary.


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