# Urinary Calculi: Treatment Analysis, Myths, and Tips



## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

:update:
UPDATE: Please see this link for all of this info compiled more clearly: https://thegivinggoathome.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/urinary-calculi-in-goats.pdf

Well, this sure took some research. I've been working hard, and I've done a deep dive into the topic of Urinary Calculi.

Before you get into reading this, let me describe what it is. There are a lot of myths, a lot of ideas, a lot of theories out there on Urinary Calculi. So I decided to take the ones I've heard and figure out why they are recommended, how they work, etc.

So this is a treatment analysis that includes fact-checking some myths, some new ideas and ALTERNATIVE TREATMENTS, and my goal is just to provide some options and some new thoughts to consider! This took quite a bit of time and research, but it's not polished, and of course none of it is proven. Enjoy!!

DISCLAIMER: These are simply thoughts, notes, and ideas on Urinary Calculi. None of these "treatment" options are guaranteed to work in ANY way, please consult a vet.

There are two main causes for Urinary Stones we see in male goats. The first is caused by too much phosphorus, often the overfeeding of grain. These stones are called *magnesium ammonium phosphate stones*, or in humans, struvite stones. The second cause is calcium stones, which are often due to hard well water or the overfeeding of alfalfa, these are called *calcium oxalate stones.*

While both of these result in Urinary Calculi, the treatment path differs between the two. If we can know the cause of each case of Urinary Calculi, we can gear treatments better-and we may even be able to have more successful prognoses for these situations.

I saw Urinary Calculi as a dilemma for goat owners due to (1) frequent poor prognoses; (2) limited treatment options-including self-treatments or holistic treatments; and (3) limited studies and knowledge of the issue.

My goal was to take a closer look at the specific causes for UC, to research the current treatment options available, and to consider new options for treatment of this awful issue affecting goat farmers and pet goat owners all over the world.

I will also be discussing a few known alternative treatments for UC:

- Home Remedy by Hoegger Farmyard

- Fruit Fresh

- Apple Cider Vinegar

**And I will discuss newer alternatives as well.

*"Phosphorus-caused" stones:*

Most cases of UC are due to an imbalance (too much) of phosphorus. Current treatment for these stones (and all stones) is the administration of *ammonium chloride*. Ammonium chloride is an _*acidifying agent,*_ which is what is needed to treat this type of UC.

*Options that MAY work for alternative treatments to ACIDIFY urine and dissolve these stones include:*

- Cranberry Juice

- Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)

- Vinegar (NOT apple cider vinegar)

- Prune Juice (FYI, high amounts may have laxative effect)

All of these are acidifying agents.

WHY APPLE CIDER VINEGAR WON'T WORK FOR "PHOSPHORUS-CAUSED STONES"

Unlike most other vinegars, apple cider vinegar results in an alkalizing effect, therefore it will not acidify urine in cases of magnesium ammonium phosphate stones.

ON VITAMIN C:

Vitamin C, a.k.a., ascorbic acid, has shown to have an acidifying effect on urine pH. A similar acid, citric acid, DOES NOT have the same effect. Both of these acids can be found in lemon juice. Thus, lemon juice is often included in alternative treatment options. Citric acid is metabolized by bicarbonate in the body, and, unfortunately, once metabolized, it will not likely acidify the urine. Lemon juice is highly acidic due to the citric acid-however, as said above, once lemon juice is metabolized in the body, it will actually have an ALKALIZING effect. It is for this reason, that lemon juice should not be used to treat "phosphorus-caused" stones.

While straight *Vitamin C *is best, a product called *Fruit Fresh* has been used in alternative UC treatments. This contains both ascorbic acid and citric acid. While it is true that citric acid will not aid in acidifying urine, there have been no studies to show that citric acid alone, without other byproducts in lemon juice, can cause urine pH to be more alkaline. Thus, it should not have any negative effect on treatment in the Fruit Fresh. Fruit Fresh, due to the ascorbic acid in it, may be a suitable alternative treatment. However, straight Vitamin C would be preferred.

A NOTE ON BAKING SODA:
As said above, citric acid is metabolized by bicarbonate in the body. While goats produce natural bicarbonate, adding extra bicarbonate through baking soda may increase the metabolization of citric acid. Citric acid aside, baking soda has an alkalizing effect on the body. For this reason, baking soda should never be offered free choice to male goats - and if it is needed for a case of bloat, use for only short periods of time.

WHY HOEGGER FARMYARD'S RECIPE MAY NOT WORK FOR "PHOSPHORUS CAUSED STONES"

The recipe from Hogger is as follows:

½ red onion

Juice from 3 lemons

6 garlic pods

¼ cup vinegar

As stated above, lemon juice may do more harm than good for treating this particular kind of stone. We will discuss onion later on, however, I have also come to the conclusion that there are no obvious acidifying effects from the onion in this recipe. The vinegar is the acidifying agent in this situation. It would be beneficial to use vinegar without these other ingredients.

*"Calcium-caused" stones:*

These stones are tricky, and there have been many misconceptions regarding them. Calcium oxalate stones will appear in urine whether it is acidic or alkaline, it is purely dietary with to relation to pH. Treatment for these stones is much more difficult. While they are much less common than the other, these stones also require a very different treatment method.

*Options may include:*

- Vitamin C (not for acidifying purposes, but to prevent the union of calcium and oxalate, which would form new stones)

- Vinegar (apple cider vinegar is okay in this situation, because we want the acetic acids and other acids, not the pH effect)

- Vitamin B6

- Magnesium (magnesium citrate)

*Vitamin C* may prevent the union of calcium and oxalates in the body. In doing so, it will prevent more stones from forming and/or combing to make larger stones.

*Vinegar* contains acetic and phosphoric acids. While again, we are not looking for an acidifying effect, these acids in particular may increase the amount of moisture urinary stones are able to absorb, therefore softening them and allowing them to break down easier. Vinegar also contains citrate, which binds urinary calcium and oxalate crystals to prevent formation and growth.

*Vitamin B6* also helps with calcium oxalate stones. Onions are high in B6, however, complete B Complex supplements may be useful in treatment for calcium oxalate stones.

*Magnesium*, similar to B6, may be one of the most important (and under-studied) factors in calcium oxalate stone treatment. Magnesium has the ability to keep calcium in "solution." It prevents calcium from crystallizing. Magnesium citrate (a supplement for humans) is a well-absorbed form that can be used to dissolve calcium oxalate stones.

The Hoegger Farmyard Home Remedy _MAY_ WORK for "Calcium-caused" stones:

½ red onion

Juice from 3 lemons

6 garlic pods

¼ cup vinegar

While I feel that this may not be a successful treatment in cases of "phosphorus-caused" stones, it would certainly be something you could try along with other treatment measures for calcium oxalate stones. And while I recommend against lemon due to it increasing urine pH, in calcium oxalate stones, pH is not relevant and lemon juice may have some added citrates (but vinegar alone is good enough) to help.

*AMMONIUM CHLORIDE:*

Ammonium chloride as an acidifying agent, if you have calcium oxalate stones, this may not be a successful treatment.

*The takeaway:*

Know what type of stone you are treating. While one relies on acidifying agents, the other relies on calcium oxalate binding agents. I believe that the misunderstandings regarding the treatments for specific types of UC may partially be why treatment is not highly successful.

*BUT WHAT ABOUT PREVENTION TECHNIQUES?*

*Preventing "phosphorus-caused" UC:*

Ammonium chloride, a well known UC preventative, should be very effective in preventing this type of UC.

However, the common recommendation of adding apple cider vinegar to water will likely do more harm this good if you feed large amounts of grain/phosphorus. It has an alkalizing effect on urine pH, despite common beliefs.

*Preventing "calcium-caused" UC:*

In the case of a diet too high in calcium (hard well water, high alfalfa consumption) apple cider vinegar as an addition to water may prove helpful. As you recall from above, the pH does not matter, it is the acetic acid, phosphoric acid, and citrate that dissolve and prevent calcium-oxalate stones.

Providing suitable dietary magnesium to balance high calcium may, in fact, be one of the best preventative methods for calcium oxalate stones in goats.

Please do not hesitate to contact a vet in a case of Urinary Calculi. These home remedies are not guaranteed to work, and most have not even been tested on goats.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

REFERENCES/LINKS:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5503439/

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v09n05.shtml

https://www.sweetlix.com/research-articles/goats/urinary-stones-in-goats/#:~:text=An ideal calcium-to-phosphorus,(magnesium ammonium phosphate) stones.

https://hoeggerfarmyard.com/urinary-calculi-in-goats/

https://journals.lww.com/jbisrir/fu...effectiveness_of_lemon_solution_versus.8.aspx

https://www.kidneystonesclinic.in/can-apple-cider-vinegar-dissolve-kidney-stones/

https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2005/08/29/Cranberry-juice-no-benefit-for-kidney-stones#:~:text=Levels of brushite did decrease,," wrote the researchers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4265710/#:~:text=Citrate prevents stone formation by,prevents crystal growth [6].

sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/citrate

https://www.kidney-international.org/article/S0085-2538(15)48976-8/pdf

https://liveutifree.com/vitamin-c-for-uti/

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/l...roach-really-low-ph-health-problem/112326926/

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/lemon-juice-acidic-or-alkaline#section4

http://www.zazenessentialwater.com.au/_blog/zazen_blog/post/How_is_lemon_juice_alkaline_forming/

https://sciencenotes.org/what-is-the-ph-of-lemon-juice/

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v05n10.shtml

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4946963/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6642359/

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=28840&t=vinegar-vs.lemon-for-dissolving-eggshells

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-816/apple-cider-vinegar#:~:text=Apple cider vinegar is the,B vitamins and vitamin C.

https://www.peacehealth.org/medical-topics/id/hn-1228000#:~:text=In some cases, as much,itself reduces kidney stone recurrences.

http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/vth/Documents/pharmacy-ammonium-chloride.pdf

https://www.healthcentral.com/article/alkalize-the-body-with-baking-soda


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

P.S. if anyone has any alternative treatments they want me to research, let me know.

Any personal experiences feel free to share as well!!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

Thank you! I will save this thread and look over it later! Seems like a lot of great info!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Just tagging some members for thoughts... would like to hear if anyone has used any of these methods. All the research in the world isn't worth much compared to personal experiences!!

@ksalvagno I know you've recommended Fruit Fresh in the past.

@happybleats 
@MellonFriend 
@21goaties 
@toth boer goats 
@Jessica84 
@SalteyLove 
@Sfgwife 
@groovyoldlady 
@MadHouse 
@Tanya


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Very good research! We have never personally dealt with UC here but I have talked many through treatment process. You listed many good methods. Success can depend on severity of the stones and how large the urethra is allowed to grow. Another option (I may have missed?) More of an emergency intervention..Snipping the urethral process also known as the pizzle which can offer immediate relief. Goat-link.com has a very good visual article on how to do this. This along with hot compresses and messages can help the goat expel the stones.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

happybleats said:


> Very good research! We have never personally dealt with UC here but I have talked many through treatment process. You listed many good methods. Success can depend on severity of the stones and how large the urethra is allowed to grow. Another option (I may have missed?) More of an emergency intervention..Snipping the urethral process also known as the pizzle which can offer immediate relief. Goat-link.com has a very good visual article on how to do this. This along with hot compresses and messages can help the goat expel the stones.


I did not want to go over complete treatments - which would have include banamine or anti-inflammatories, warm compress, massage, pizzle cutting, or a re-routing surgery... because I know those DO work and I was trying to focus on things we may not have very good understandings of, or that we may have misconceptions about 

This post was for all the people that I see on fb groups saying "give acv" instead of AC.

This post for all the people who don't have access to ammonium chloride and beg in a pinch for what they can use as a replacement.

:great:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Awe.got it. We can remove my post so it doesn't confuse things.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

happybleats said:


> Awe.got it. We can remove my post so it doesn't confuse things.


No not at all! If someone IS looking for complete treatment info that is surely helpful!


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

We haven't had UC and hopefully we never do. Only ever gave ammonium chloride once (posted about it here: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/acting-off.208843/) as a precaution since I wasn't 100% sure he didn't have UC. He recovered fine, I think it was something else.

Also I remember goathiker saying this on my thread about our senior goat George:



goathiker said:


> At age 11 the chance of him developing stones is nil pretty much.
> Ammonium chloride is NOT intended for daily use in healthy animals anyway.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

21goaties said:


> We haven't had UC and hopefully we never do. Only ever gave ammonium chloride once (posted about it here: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/acting-off.208843/) as a precaution since I wasn't 100% sure he didn't have UC. He recovered fine, I think it was something else.
> 
> Also I remember goathiker saying this on my thread about our senior goat George:


:great:


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I have never had any UC troubles yet. I do plan on wethering some of my buck kids when my does finally kid so I definitely plan taking some sort of preventative measures for them in the future.

I used to offer ACV water to my bucks, but they never drank it and I ended up trying to spritz some on their food, but then they stopped wanting to eat their food. So in short I don't offer it any more. I do like to keep some sort of salt out to encourage them to drink more water and in turn help flush out their systems. And of course I try my best to keep a mind on my calcium-phosphorus ratios.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

MellonFriend said:


> I have never had any UC troubles yet. I do plan on wethering some of my buck kids when my does finally kid so I definitely plan taking some sort of preventative measures for them in the future.
> 
> I used to offer ACV water to my bucks, but they never drank it and I ended up trying to spritz some on their food, but then they stopped wanting to eat their food. So in short I don't offer it any more. I do like to keep some sort of salt out to encourage them to drink more water and in turn help flush out their systems. And of course I try my best to keep a mind on my calcium-phosphorus ratios.


(thumbup)


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Thanks for doing all this research and posting it!
This is great info!
I have not had to deal with UC either, so far.
I have Ammonium Chloride on hand. It is good to know that may not work for calcium stones.
The math required to figure out the right balance for calcium vs phosphorus can be challenging.
Until this summer I have had access to alfalfa mix hay only (in small bales). I always shook it out and fed the boys mostly the stalks, as the leaves have more calcium. With that I gave a small amount of grain and BOSS to the males to even out the phosphorus. I had been adding apple cider vinegar to their water during that time, just because I had read it is good to do if you have hard well water, which we do.
Now I have found grass hay in small bales. My boys eat grass hay all day, and get a small amount of alfalfa hay at night to balance out the calcium. Not sure if I should continue with the apple cider vinegar.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> *Vinegar* contains acetic and phosphoric acids. While again, we are not looking for an acidifying effect, these acids in particular may increase the amount of moisture urinary stones are able to absorb, therefore softening them and allowing them to break down easier. Vinegar also contains citrate, which binds urinary calcium and oxalate crystals to prevent formation and growth.


@MadHouse I would still add ACV to balance your hard water!

And I'd be considering the magnesium in their diet... or possible lack thereof.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

MadHouse said:


> Thanks for doing all this research and posting it!
> This is great info!
> I have not had to deal with UC either, so far.
> I have Ammonium Chloride on hand. It is good to know that may not work for calcium stones.
> ...


And I'd definitely form a treatment plan for UC that is not ammonium chloride in case of calcium stones.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> @MadHouse I would still add ACV to balance your hard water!
> 
> And I'd be considering the magnesium in their diet... or possible lack thereof.


Even though now they are on grass hay?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

MadHouse said:


> Even though now they are on grass hay?


If you have hard water AND still have alfalfa in a diet, the ACV will do way more good than the slim chance of it making urine a little less acidic.

If your water wasn't hard, grass hay and a little of alfalfa would be perfect. With hard water, and grass hay, and a little alfalfa, I would not be worried about phosphorus issues.

The ACV is to bind calcium not to acidify.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> If you have hard water AND still have alfalfa in a diet, the ACV will do way more good than the slim chance of it making urine a little less acidic.
> 
> If your water wasn't hard, grass hay and a little of alfalfa would be perfect. With hard water, and grass hay, and a little alfalfa, I would not be worried about phosphorus issues.
> 
> The ACV is to bind calcium not to acidify.


Thank you!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

One more question. 
In your opinion, would grass hay only and hard water be a balanced diet?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

My grass hay is timothy/bluegrass.
I read that timothy has a favourable ratio of 2:1.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

MadHouse said:


> One more question.
> In your opinion, would grass hay only and hard water be a balanced diet?


Depends on how hard the water is, but I would prefer some kelp in there as an extra boost of calcium.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

MadHouse said:


> My grass hay is timothy/bluegrass.
> I read that timothy has a favourable ratio of 2:1.


Most grass hays are between 1:1 and 2.5:1

I've found that goats on strictly grass hay, even without hard water, do just fine. Though, to comfort myself I prefer to have a little higher calcium so well water and even a little bit of kelp seems to be a happy sweet spot.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

What a fantastic thread! I look forward to reading the many links provided. It looks like you did a LOT of research! 

The one thing I'm not so sure about is whether phosphorus stones are actually more prevalent than calcium stones. I think outside the meat goat industry, calcium stones may be more common. In fact, all the old literature dealt with calcium stones until meat goats came to the fore about 20 years ago and with it the unprecedented practice of feeding grain to wethers. Then suddenly all we heard about were phosphorus stones. All the money is currently in meat goats so that is what universities are studying, but I think calcium stones may be the more prevalent type in packgoats which are commonly fed alfalfa but rarely fed grain. 

And then there's the controversy over free-choice baking soda. I know some packgoat people who feed free choice baking soda, but I think it's a bad idea. If your goats are prone to bloating and acidosis, there's something wrong with their diet and in my opinion you're better off correcting the cause than possibly masking a chronic problem by offering free choice baking soda. From what I understand, baking soda has an alkalizing effect on the urine which means it should not be a regular part of the diet for wethers. 

Once again, GREAT thread and I look forward to perusing those links when I get a chance.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Damfino said:


> The one thing I'm not so sure about is whether phosphorus stones are actually more prevalent than calcium stones. I think outside the meat goat industry, calcium stones may be more common. In fact, all the old literature dealt with calcium stones until meat goats came to the fore about 20 years ago and with it the unprecedented practice of feeding grain to wethers. Then suddenly all we heard about were phosphorus stones. All the money is currently in meat goats so that is what universities are studying, but I think calcium stones may be the more prevalent type in packgoats which are commonly fed alfalfa but rarely fed grain.


Oh absolutely. When I say more common, I don't mean that it happens faster or easier, just that I feel many of the cases of urinary calculi are brought about due to people tossing their pet wethers a bunch of grain for fun. Because I do think it's more unlikely for people to feed their pet goats alfalfa instead of grain.

Totally not in the pack goat world, though, so thanks for mentioning!!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Damfino said:


> And then there's the controversy over free-choice baking soda. I know some packgoat people who feed free choice baking soda, but I think it's a bad idea. If your goats are prone to bloating and acidosis, there's something wrong with their diet and in my opinion you're better off correcting the cause than possibly masking a chronic problem by offering free choice baking soda. From what I understand, baking soda has an alkalizing effect on the urine which means it should not be a regular part of the diet for wethers.


I totally forgot to include a note on baking soda. I am putting that in right now!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

*ADDITION:

CHANCA PIEDRA: STONE BREAKER HERB
*
Chance Piedra is an herb known to treat stones. I have had inquiry on whether or not this would work for goats. I have come to the conclusion that this may be beneficial in cases of CALCIUM OXALATE stones, but not magnesium ammonium phosphate stones.

Chanca Piedra is commonly used for uric acid stones in humans. These stones are actually caused by overly-acidic urine. Chanca Piedra actually causes urine to be more *acidic. *DO NOT use this in cases of "phosphorus-caused" stones.

Because calcium oxalate stones will survive in acidic or alkaline environments, Chanca Piedra poses no immediate dangers in the treatment of these stones. Chanca Piedra does not dissolve calcium oxalate stones. However, the herb is an inflammatory agent, which may help stones pass easier. So, in cases of calcium oxalate stones, Chanca Piedra may aid in the passing of stones through the urethra, however, it does not seem to have many other benefits - and it may not be the first choice for resolving stones.

https://www.kidneystoners.org/treatment/how-effective-is-chanca-piedra-at-breaking-kidney-stones/

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/chanca-piedra#1


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

I have experience with a wether that had stones. He was always fed the "textbook" diet: no grain and a 2:1 calcium phosphorus ratio. He battled stones on and off for a few months last winter and then we had to put him down. Everytime I saw him with dribbling pee, I would drench him with AC in molasses water. Within a few hours, he would have a full stream of urine. One day, the AC didn't work. As a last resort, we cut off the ureteral process, but that didn't help. We had to take him to the vet to be humanely put down.

The vet said he saw this a lot and concluded that stones were more of a genetic problem and made worse when goats don't drink enough water to constantly flush the stones out. It made sense to me because he only got the problem when it was cold and he didn't want to drink a lot. The vet gave me a really good tip:

Spray the goats' hay with salt water when you feed them.

That had to be the best tip ever! Not only does it make them drink more, but if they are picky about their hay, it turns it into goat crack! When I have the spray bottle out, they run around hitting each other trying to get to the hay that I just sprayed and will even eat alfalfa sticks!

It's a lifechanger. I'm no longer worried that I'll get a load of hay that they end up not liking and they waste it. All I have to do is spray it!

He said this works for horses too.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

NicoleV said:


> I have experience with a wether that had stones. He was always fed the "textbook" diet: no grain and a 2:1 calcium phosphorus ratio. He battled stones on and off for a few months last winter and then we had to put him down. Everytime I saw him with dribbling pee, I would drench him with AC in molasses water. Within a few hours, he would have a full stream of urine. One day, the AC didn't work. As a last resort, we cut off the ureteral process, but that didn't help. We had to take him to the vet to be humanely put down.
> 
> The vet said he saw this a lot and concluded that stones were more of a genetic problem and made worse when goats don't drink enough water to constantly flush the stones out. It made sense to me because he only got the problem when it was cold and he didn't want to drink a lot. The vet gave me a really good tip:
> 
> ...


I'm curious - may I ask what type of hay you fed and what your water source was?


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

Certainly!

Half orchard grass, half alfalfa. Both hays were tested by the supplier because the hay farm also does analysis. The grass hay was about 1:1 and the alfalfa was 4.5:1.

I'm on city water. The water out here in this part of California comes from the Sierra Nevada mountains and is very low in minerals because it's snow melt water. I'm spoiled when it comes to water lol!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

NicoleV said:


> Certainly!
> 
> Half orchard grass, half alfalfa. Both hays were tested by the supplier because the hay farm also does analysis. The grass hay was about 1:1 and the alfalfa was 4.5:1.
> 
> I'm on city water. The water out here in this part of California comes from the Sierra Nevada mountains and is very low in minerals because it's snow melt water. I'm spoiled when it comes to water lol!


What age was the goat castrated?


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

He was banded at 4 months old. He had a twin brother too banded the same time. They lived together. Now I just have the other one and he has no problems whatsoever. I would say the only difference between the two was that the surviving one was the more "manly" of the two before they were banded. Maybe that means his eurethra was more developed? Who knows, and it's only speculation.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

NicoleV said:


> He was banded at 4 months old. He had a twin brother too banded the same time. They lived together. Now I just have the other one and he has no problems whatsoever. I would say the only difference between the two was that the surviving one was the more "manly" of the two before they were banded. Maybe that means his eurethra was more developed? Who knows, and it's only speculation.


Do you remember what the texture/appearance of the stones was?


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

.....The vet gave me a really good tip:

Spray the goats' hay with salt water when you feed them.
...It's a lifechanger. I'm no longer worried that I'll get a load of hay that they end up not liking and they waste it. All I have to do is spray it!...................[/QUOTE]
******************************************************
Hi Nicole...
THAT'S very interesting and Thanks for posting this!! I haven't heard of spraying the hay with Salt Water before but, if it encourages them not to WASTE HAY...I'm definitely going to be trying this out!!!! Our girls are so picky and waste a lot of hay ($$$)...I really hope this works for them.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

This information is great!! I did not know there were 2 types of stones nor did I know that giving AC on a regular basis/daily wasn't the best way to prevent stones. Since we don't have any male goats, I don't have anything to ADD to the conversation except more questions...

When we sell the babies (Nigerian Dwarfs), they are dam-raised until they are 10 weeks old. If there are any boys that are being sold as wethers, I wait until a few days before they are scheduled to be picked up so...wethered at 10 weeks old. Is that too young of an age..? I have heard a few opinions on the matter (some say anytime after 4 weeks of age...some say never before 4 months or older) but, the one that makes the most sense (to me) is waiting until they are a bit older so their urethra, etc. has a chance to develop more. What age would that be (ideally)..? 
Would wethering at a later age help protect them from developing stones or is that wholly dependent on diet and it doesn't matter what age they're wethered..?
Also...just because I've heard it more than once and don't really understand...does snipping the pizzle (ouch) have any effect on their ability to breed (if a buck)..?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

HMNS said:


> When we sell the babies (Nigerian Dwarfs), they are dam-raised until they are 10 weeks old. If there are any boys that are being sold as wethers, I wait until a few days before they are scheduled to be picked up so...wethered at 10 weeks old. Is that too young of an age..? I have heard a few opinions on the matter (some say anytime after 4 weeks of age...some say never before 4 months or older) but, the one that makes the most sense (to me) is waiting until they are a bit older so their urethra, etc. has a chance to develop more. What age would that be (ideally)..?


10 weeks is better than some, however I like to aim for 12. That's best for weaning as well, in all honesty.



HMNS said:


> Would wethering at a later age help protect them from developing stones or is that wholly dependent on diet and it doesn't matter what age they're wethered..?


It's a mix both, but it certainly helps if they are wethered later - but no matter the age, even an intact buck can get UC from an improper diet.



HMNS said:


> Also...just because I've heard it more than once and don't really understand...does snipping the pizzle (ouch) have any effect on their ability to breed (if a buck)..?


Yes it does, they cannot be bred afterwards.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Research into humans stones has shown promise for 2 drugs that relax the ureters and allow the stones to pass with minimal pain and resistance.: Nifedipine (a high BP med) and a Rho Kinase inhibitor (used to treat Gaucoma). Might show promise for goats in the future. Right now they are using these in animal testing, don't know what type of animal. Maybe they should try goats!


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> 10 weeks is better than some, however I like to aim for 12. That's best for weaning as well, in all honesty.
> 
> It's a mix both, but it certainly helps if they are wethered later - but no matter the age, even an intact buck can get UC from an improper diet.
> 
> Yes it does, they cannot be bred afterwards.


Thanks!!  I will plan on 12 weeks instead of 10. I have to ask tho'...so far, most of our boys come out of the womb 'humping' and acting very much like a BOY. By the time they're weaned at 10 weeks, they're a *real* nuisance to their dams, sisters and each other. I have to think this is normal behavior for boys but...at what point are you concerned with them either breeding their dam or possibly (?) injuring their sister..? Not sure if they can but, I've wondered because they sure aren't gentle about it and all the girls run and try to get away.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

HMNS said:


> Thanks!!  I will plan on 12 weeks instead of 10. I have to ask tho'...so far, most of our boys come out of the womb 'humping' and acting very much like a BOY. By the time they're weaned at 10 weeks, they're a *real* nuisance to their dams, sisters and each other. I have to think this is normal behavior for boys but...at what point are you concerned with them either breeding their dam or possibly (?) injuring their sister..? Not sure if they can but, I've wondered because they sure aren't gentle about it and all the girls run and try to get away.


Are they just humping or you actually seeing them extend and ... well, pop out?


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Are they just humping or you actually seeing them extend and ... well, pop out?


At the beginning it's just humping but...I've see 'the red thing' as early as 6-7 weeks. Then it REALLY gets obnoxious! LOL


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

HMNS said:


> At the beginning it's just humping but...I've see 'the red thing' as early as 6-7 weeks. Then it REALLY gets obnoxious! LOL


If you are observing this I would just keep your bucklings separated from your doelings.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> If you are observing this I would just keep your bucklings separated from your doelings.


OK.


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## Boers4ever (Jun 28, 2020)

My buck doesn’t get alfalfa but does get free choice hay. He also gets grain with calf manna added. Free choice minerals. My question is: I’m terrified about UC, are there more preventatives that I could give him just to make sure that he doesn’t ever get UC? I’ll make sure to have ammonium chloride on hand for the future. 
This is great! Thank you for sharing this!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Boers4ever said:


> My buck doesn't get alfalfa but does get free choice hay. He also gets grain with calf manna added. Free choice minerals. My question is: I'm terrified about UC, are there more preventatives that I could give him just to make sure that he doesn't ever get UC? I'll make sure to have ammonium chloride on hand for the future.
> This is great! Thank you for sharing this!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

WHEN NEEDING TO SUPPLEMENT WITH FEED:

It's been recommended, if you are adding feed to an ADULT wether's diet for weight gain, which is rarely necessary, to give it intermittently. This means give it 2x a week, every other day, or 3 days on 4 days off. It gives the body time to clear excess calcium or phosphorus out (depends on what you are feeding, this goes for alfalfa, grain, etc), to reduce the risk of UC. You are still adding feed for weight gain, but it is safer and more sporadic.

Also, info on pulse feeding for ammonium chloride: https://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/h...5-3xfFbx4fg_i5OswWbQsYHFNCN2P45TIZiHKIBQCcOIc

Very similar to a sort of "pulse feeding" with supplemental feeds.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Also on young bucklings being sexual..instead of reducing their need for mothers nutrition..( since humans feeding is a guessing game) try an anti mating apron. It absolves the risk of unwanted pregnancies..its all natural and no medication, allows young bucklings time for longer better nutrition easy to use and comes in all sizes.
@NicoleV ..thanks for the.spraying tip! Very smart! :clever:
Now..for all this.other info to be useful..we need some sort of test for the type of stones..otherwise..its still.a guessing game which way to treat!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Moers kiko boars said:


> Also on young bucklings being sexual..instead of reducing their need for mothers nutrition..( since humans feeding is a guessing game) try an anti mating apron. It absolves the risk of unwanted pregnancies..its all natural and no medication, allows young bucklings time for longer better nutrition easy to use and comes in all sizes.
> @NicoleV ..thanks for the.spraying tip! Very smart! :clever:
> Now..for all this.other info to be useful..we need some sort of test for the type of stones..otherwise..its still.a guessing game which way to treat!


Sort of, you can get an idea based on diet.

My questions: 
do you feed alfalfa? Do you have hard well water? = Calcium stones
do you feed grain? = Phosphorus stones

Of course if either is balanced it may not cause UC so you have to look at ratios of each as well.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Also, some of the treatments, if you read, are universal, they can work for either.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

This is fantastic and thank you for all the time and research you out into it. Thank you for sharing it’s greatly appreciated


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

Moers kiko boars said:


> Also on young bucklings being sexual..instead of reducing their need for mothers nutrition..( since humans feeding is a guessing game) try an anti mating apron. It absolves the risk of unwanted pregnancies..its all natural and no medication, allows young bucklings time for longer better nutrition easy to use and comes in all sizes.
> 
> Thanks for the Anti-Mating Apron tip. Where can I get some that are small enough for Nigerian Dwarf bucklings..?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

House of Bacchus is where I got mine. The x small fit my buckling.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

My Big boys









And my little bucklings








I trust House of Bauchus anti mating apron


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

Moers kiko boars said:


> My Big boys
> View attachment 188287
> 
> 
> ...


***********************************************************
Thank You!! I will definitely be getting a few for our future bucklings!!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Would this be helpful as a preventative for UC for a wether that gets a diet of grass hay, one very small handful of alfalfa hay and 2 tablespoons of BOSS a day? Hard water, ACV added to every second bucket. He is not drinking very much in the winter.
And if so, how often would I give this to him?
Thanks


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

What loose mineral do you offer?


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

MadHouse said:


> Would this be helpful as a preventative for UC for a wether that gets a diet of grass hay, one very small handful of alfalfa hay and 2 tablespoons of BOSS a day? Hard water, ACV added to every second bucket. He is not drinking very much in the winter.
> And if so, how often would I give this to him?
> Thanks
> View attachment 192971
> ...


With what you are feeding him he should not have problems with uc and not need anything for it. But the mag is not going to help prevent uc either.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

His diet sounds pretty balanced -

I don't love supplements for humans for mag, I highly recommend if you have hard water to use a low calcium high mag mineral such as Sweetlix Magnum Milk.

Most magnesium content as long as it's above 1-1.5% in minerals is helpful.

@Sfgwife, magnesium is to help prevent the formation of calcium oxalate stones - it keeps calcium in its liquid form in the blood and prevents it from crystallizing in the body.

If he isn't drinking a lot, that is your biggest issue, and you may want to consider warming water for him or adding electrolytes. There are some electrolytes with added levels of magnesium that you may like!!

I hope that helps.

The ACV is one of the most helpful things for calcium stones, you may want to give a supplemental teaspoon weekly with some sort of feed or treat to ensure gets enough.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> With what you are feeding him he should not have problems with uc and not need anything for it. But the mag is not going to help prevent uc either.


I am trying to feed him as balanced as possible.
It is the not drinking water that makes me worried sometimes, so I am trying to be a step ahead, just in case.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> What loose mineral do you offer?


masterfeeds ritemins 2:1
https://www.masterfeeds.com/nutrition/2010-no-salt-hi-cnz-min-premix/


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> If he isn't drinking a lot, that is your biggest issue, and you may want to consider warming water for him or adding electrolytes. There are some electrolytes with added levels of magnesium that you may like!!


He always gets warm water. Cold water they all refuse.
I tried electrolytes before which didn't make a difference, but I got some different ones now, I will try with those.

I will see if I can get him to take a treat with ACV once a week.

I do have LOH "kiddie dry" tincture that he loves and gets every once in a while.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Thanks!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I don't love supplements for humans for mag, I highly recommend if you have hard water to use a low calcium high mag mineral such as Sweetlix Magnum Milk.


I can't get any of the minerals you guys have available. But I do have some 1:1 mineral leftover from when I fed all alfalfa (before I was able to get grass hay).
https://www.masterfeeds.com/nutrition/1616-ritemins-beef-cattle-no-salt-hi-cnz-mineral-premix/
Would he be better off with those?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

A low calcium mineral is always better for goats on hard water.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

@MadHouse Hopefully you figured things out with the mineral?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> @MadHouse Hopefully you figured things out with the mineral?


Yes, thanks!
I keep the 1:1 mineral seperate and give him the container after supper, when he is alone. It stays fresher, he enjoys it and sometimes drinks more water now. We are both happy with this solution.


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