# Breeding too young.



## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I was researching about breeding when a goat is too small/too young. When the pregnancy hormones kick in the bone growth slows and stops all together. So you can end up with stunted animals. This can also work in your favor. If a doe is growing too tall to fast you can breed them earlier and maybe they won't go over the height limit. Just thought some of you would like to know.....


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

bone growth can't stop all together - my darling MIa is much bigger now then she was last year when bred - and even bigger then she was when she delivered back in June.

It may stop the growth or stunt the growth but not stop it alltogether, at least not in all cases, so it isn't across the board.


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## Duchesse (Oct 31, 2007)

What about breeding with the *differences *between the *mini breeds *and the *standard sized breeds *in mind. It seems a standard sized doe can be bred much earlier than the mini breeds.

The general consensus is that when breeding the mini goat you should wait until they are 14-18 months. Is this the recommended age at breeding or freshening?

I've learned the perils of breeding too early but I would like to breed my two girls who will be 12months/1 year in May/June.

Should I breed in May/June for a Fall kidding, at that time they *will be *17 months *or* should I breed in October when they *are* 17 months and await a Spring kidding when they both will be 22 months?


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I meant to say slows or stops all together. Of course it isn't across the board but that is what commonly happens (so I've read). It is all an individual goat thing. I have a doe who I bred and she will kid at 14 months. She has very wide hips and is already 20-21 inches tall. And is a good weight too.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

i think that you really have to be carful on when you breed your kids. In my experience if i have a smaller kid that is old enough. Say a fifty or sixty lb march kid, if you breed her the hormones do the opisite, they kick in and get her growing. I have one doe that is exactly that this year. I bred her a couple months ago and she has almost caught up to my two year olds in size. So she is definatly able to kid now.
beth


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm talking about being bred at 3-6 months, and nigerians, mini breeds. I know alot of people breed them early and don't have a problem. that is why it is so weird that it said they slow or stop growing when you breed them when they are really young.


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## Duchesse (Oct 31, 2007)

I'm new to goats and I don't have the experience to use as a reference.

I guess this question goes out to the pygmy breeders in particular. At what age/weight have you been most comfortable breeding your does?

Providing that the goat is gaining weight normally , Do you think that 12 months is too early for the _*average* _pygmy doe to breed?


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

I breed my pygmy's at 1 year if they are normal weight and are healthy.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

I did too. The biggest problem i ran into with the pygmys is c-sections. The kids always had big heads. This is the main reason i sold my pygmys just too many risks.
beth


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

one year old is fine as long as they are not super tiny. If they look to need more time to grow give it to them. It is all an individual goat thing.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

sparks879 said:


> I did too. The biggest problem i ran into with the pygmys is c-sections. The kids always had big heads. This is the main reason i sold my pygmys just too many risks.
> beth


a lot of your registered pygmies were bred down to be really small. They are changing that now and hopefully in the future we will see more of the larger pygmies that can handle the kids heads.

Also upping their feed in the last month of pregnancy causes the kids to grow more and makes for much larger kids. I up their feed mid pregnancy and keep the amount the same or drop off a bit till they kid. I was given a study that was really helpful. trob1 posted it in the topic of the week section under "how to feed pregnant goats"


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Yea, its so hard to judge grain rations because i believe it depends onb what the pasture is like and the indiidual goat as well. As of now my does have some pasture, but they have eaten most of it down over the winter. We are trying to do walks most days but it gets hard because they need to eat at leasta couple hours.
beth


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I am talking specifically just grain. A lot of people hear dairy breeders say "I up their grain in the last month of pregnancy" and don't realize that this can be harmful for their small goats. it isnt always easy to know/remember who has mini goats and who has standard dairy/meat goats and new comers don't know.

A lot of people have called me nuts for stating that "I dont up their grain ration at the end of pregnancy" stating that, "_at that point that is when they really need the grain to keep from getting ketosis" or whatever_. But they have dairy goats or standard meat goats and don't realize the health risks of the minis. I would never jepardize the health of my goats and sometimes I do change things up as I see what works. everything basically is a work in progress, once I get it perfect I will let you know


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## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

i have dairy goats and i do not grain them the last stage of pregnancy if they are in good flesh.
the exception is with young does that still have a lot of growing to do them self. i have not had a stunted doe because of breeding at 7 month. they might not grow a lot during pregnancy, but after they have the kids, are not smaller then their peers. 
the trick is to supply a good diet, and a good mineral that they do not need to deplete their body to grow the kids out.
what i hear a lot is that people keep the young pregnant does short to prevent the kids inside getting too big. i guess this is where we see a lot of stunted animals.
i know that management with dwarfs is different, so can not say anything about it.


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## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

to prevent a doe getting pregnancy toxemia (ketosis), it is very important to keep the weight down before breeding. they need ample of possibility to move around and don't grain in the beginning of pregnancy, but start giving grain the last 50 days breed if she needs it.


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## Shazzy (Oct 16, 2007)

Beth...Did you mean that you actually _breed_ them when they are 50-60 lbs? That is interesting about the growth spurt - I had never heard that before.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

I have before. I know pwoplw say wait until they are eighty lbs. And for the most part i do that. I have two does, they are from a set of triplet does. I lost the nicest and largest one of the three to a twisted gut. So i have the other two left the medium one who is now about ninety to a hundred lbs and the smaller one who is now about eighty lbs. I bred the little one when she was about seventy lbs, she has recently hit a growth spurtnd has really done some growing. Almost as tall as her sister now. She isn'tdue until june so she has a lot of time left until she has her babies. 
I have found that thr hormones just seem to kick in and they seem to do some growing. I believe you need to be very carful on what you feed a small doe kie this. And i beleive they need to be at the right age. I have two kids from last year born in june and july who are the same size as my kid that i bred but the kid i bred was born in march so she is older. I would never breed a late kid for the immaturity factor. 
As far as the grai goes my girls get a small ration of grain all winter long. We have very poor quality alfafa here so they get local grass hay, and alfafa pellets. as they go through their pregnancy especially the last two months i up their grain. But im very carful about watching weight coat condition and mineral deficiancy signs. I have a board in my barn that has everyones name on it with their grain rations written under neath it. I mix my grain by the goat rather then by the grain. A lot of people will mix their grain first and then give the goat a certain amount of the mixed ration. If i feel she is down in weight she gets more dry cob, if i feel while milking she is going down in her production she gets more oats. Not all the goats get the same amount of a certain type of grain as the next doe.
i hope this all makes sense. im re reading it and it seems to to me. I know everyone has their own opinions on management practices and i think its great hearing everyones opinions on this subject.
beth


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## Duchesse (Oct 31, 2007)

This is why I  the goat spot. Goat mommies with alot of experience. :leap:

These are my first goats and this will be my first attempt to breed them. Belly problems frighten me and so I feed them 2oz/3tsp of this mix once a day (Purina Goat Chow, BOSS and 1 Tbsp of alfalfa flakes.) They receive free choice grass hay, minerals, baking soda, and water. I feel that they are of good flesh and of average weight. They are active friendly and alert. On May 16 they will be 1 year, I have a wonderful young buck, he's untested but.... I have faith in him ray: .

I've heard that they should be conditioned before breeding. I don't want any stomach problems. I really don't like changing their feeding but I will for the sake of the kids.

Should I increase the grain to twice a day or increase the once a day feed by 1 or 2oz?

4oz per day for a mini goat at one feeding seems like stomach problems to me, am I too nervous?

To avoid having a kid that is too large to pass I should maintain this grain ration *preconditioning and throughout the pregnancy?*

I should consider an increase in the grain ration only in mid pregnancy *if at all*, am I understanding you all?

I know that nothing is written in stone and I should use my judgement for each individual goat but I want to be as informed as possible.

I want to be ready when the :baby: arrives but most importantly I want a :stars: outcome.


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## Graffogefarms (Oct 11, 2007)

Little Maria - she is due in March, she was just a year on 28th January. She was not bred on purpose but I am not happy with her size. The little monkey kept climbing out through the water trough in the wall. Thing is I don't know who bred her, it could be her father, guy, finn, or George. I was talking to the vet today when he called with the lab results and he said to bring her home and keep her on a low diet, just basic, so the kid isnt too big.


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## alpinemom (Oct 29, 2007)

My rule of thumb is if they are born March and early April I will breed in late Nov. Although I have Alpines which are usually 85-90 lbs by then. As far as feeding I feed milkers according to their production until dry 60 days before kidding and don't force feed until after, I make sure they get plenty of roughage to expand them and make room for kids to grow.

http://www.freewebs.com/mapleridgealpines


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