# Disoriented Doe ?? Help ...



## Julie (Oct 6, 2007)

I was doing barn work, and just got everyone fed and had my back turned to Noel (my 4 month old mini nubian doe) when one of the bigger goats apparantly rammed her. I heart her "grunt" and turned and looked and she was laying on the ground ~ not getting up. I hollered for her and she wouldn't get up - she was laying in like a sleeping position with her head up and alert - but she wouldn't get up off the ground, and her eyes/head looked like she was dioriented - her eyes were kind of "shaky" as if she couldn't focus correctly, and her head was a little wobbly - same thing - as if she couldn't focus. I went over and picked her up to see if she could stand - she stood there but wouldn't move. Then she tried to walk and stumbled around like a drunk. And then decided to just stand still. So I took her out of the pen and she's now in the open part of my barn where a couple of the kids are playing. She's just standing around looking disoriented, or dizzy. Will she be ok ? Should I be worried ? (cause I am - until I get some opinions saying that she'll be fine after a few minutes or so). 

HELP


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I would watch her closely. I would also rub down her body and see if she has any broken ribs. Another thing that you can do is take a flash light and check to see if her pupils will constrict when you shine the light at them. If they don't then she could have a concusion (sp).

I hope that she just got a little dazed and will be ok!

Allison


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

Since you don't know where she was hit, keep an eye on her gum color. Pale can mean internal bleeding. Check her CRT( capillary refill time) when you press on her gums( normal colored) they turn white for a second, if they stay white then you will need to worry. But hopefully she only got the wind knocked out of her. I hope she is ok


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Julie, I am so sorry. I know how scary that can be. 

Just sending good thoughts and hoping all is going to be fine. Keep us posted.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I hope she is doing better for you. Using the light in her eyes is a very good suggesstion, she may have a concussion especially if she was rammed against the fence.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I spoke to Julie, I to believe it is a concussion either from wiplash from being butted or from her hitting her head on the stall wall.

She wanted to know how long it should take her to get out of it so to speak and I was thinking 24 hours with no improvement would be bad. Would everyone agree or do you think it takes longer?


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## Julie (Oct 6, 2007)

Stacey - thanks for calling me to help Noel ... I really appreciate it !

Update (other than Stacey - since we already talked about all this) ..

Noel is seperated from my does right now, and is in the open part of my barn where my hay is kept, and where I let my kids out to play together each day. She is continuing to act "drunk" and disoriented, but IS eating the hay that's there. She isn't grinding her teeth or anything like that - and like I said - is eating hay. So I don't think that she's in pain - atleast she doesn't act like it at all. Her only problem is being disoriented. 
And I did put a flashlight up to her eyes, and I will say, I could not see her pupils dilate. I tried it on one of the other kids - just for a comparison, and from what I can tell - Noel's pupils are not dilating to the light. So I'm assuming as STacey said - that she had a concusion. 
She does not seem sleepy, and has been standing eating hay (atleast each time I was down to check on her). I will continue to keep an eye on her. 

WHEN can she safely sleep ? 
And WHEN should she be her "normal" self again ? (without the dizziness,etc.)


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

The pupils should both get smaller when you shine light in them. Did both of them stay big or just one?


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

Is she ataxic- wobbles or walks drunk when she walks or is she not responsive to her environment too?
I would ask a vet before I did this but I would think a steroid of some kind to reduce swelling might be a good idea fairly fast. But not an antiinflammitory like asprin as it could increase bleeding if ahe does have a concussion.


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## Julie (Oct 6, 2007)

The pupils did not appear to dilate.

Yes, she walks drunken and wobbly and off balance. And can't seem to focus very well.

She is walking around a little more - even though she did not change as far as being wobbly and off balance. But she's trying. And she is and has been eating hay.
She just looks "spaced out" ... eyes and all.

I did call my vet (even though they are DUMB with goats - but concusion would be a general thing - not just goat related, so I called) 
My vet said to give child's aspirin (81 ml. every 8 hours) and to just watch her. He said she could be like this for a while and not to worry if she's still this way after 24hrs. He said to worry if she's STILL like this after about 48 hours - then I'm suppose to call him if that's the case.

He wanted me to give her Banomine (sp?) but I don't have that. So he said just to use the child's aspirin.

I didn't give her the aspirin yet ~ and now am curious if I should or not due to ...


> But not an antiinflammitory like asprin as it could increase bleeding if ahe does have a concussion.


So what should I do ? Give the aspirin (after I hunt some down - cause I don't have that either), or DON'T give the aspirin ? Any other suggestions ?


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## Julie (Oct 6, 2007)

btw - the vet also thinks that according to what I told him - she has a concusion


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I wouldn't give the aspirin if it was me. Like enjoytheride said its a blood thinner. I would think it could cause her to bleed into her brain, but thats just my thinking.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Julie did the vet say that there is bleeding in the brain with a concussion?

Because from all that i have read on it before consulting you here with this is that there is no bleeding in the brain associated with a cuncussion.



> Doctors use the term concussion to describe an injury to the brain that results from an impact to the head. By definition, a concussion is not a life-threatening injury, but it can cause both short-term and long-term problems. A concussion results from a closed-head type of injury. Concussions do not include injuries where there is bleeding under the skull or into the brain. Another type of brain injury is present if bleeding is visible on a CT scan (CAT scan) of the brain.


That was taken from an artical on cuncussions found on the internet.

I would go ahead and give her the asprin. Do not give Tylonal.

81mg is the usual dosage for a kid so if you have adult asprin give a smaller amount of it.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Yes but if she has a contusion then she could be bleeding. There is no way to tell without a CT scan.

Not trying to be negative, just saying. We just went over head injuries in my EMT class. It was weird to come on and see this post right after it. lol Seems like something always happens after class that relates to class.. its weird.

I really hope that this is just a concussion and that she fine tomorrow.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ok so what is worse, treating her for the wrong thing or not treating her at all? 

such a hard decision on this sort of thing


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I know, I'm torn between what I would do. 

Is there another vet you could call and ask for a second opinion?


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## Tog Lovers (Oct 10, 2007)

I would give the asprin. If there is bleeding on the brain then the damage is already done and if there was bleeding on the brain she would be getting worse and would also be in obvious pain due to the fact that there wouldn't be room for the extra fluid in there. (3 teenage boys = lots of injuries) And asprin would help keep a small bleed from clotting. Small bleeds usually heal themselves. But a clot could cause a stroke. I really do think that if she is eating and seems to be steadily improving she will be fine.

Just my 2 cents.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Just wondering if she is improving at all. The lite shined in her eyes would cause the pupils to get smaller, which would say that she is reacting to the lite, which would be a good thing, does she pull away from you at all when you touch her head? If so, I would say she has a "headache"


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

I always thought that a concussion was a bruising of the brain which could be caused by the brain being bounced into the skull. Even if it qA bruise, I don't think that I would want to use asprin. I have used steroids like Azium on horses but have no knowledge of its affect on goats.
If the vet said asprin- then I would probably think he knows what he is talking about.
I wonder whether that are any plants that act as an anti-iflamitory- maybe willow leaves??? I'm not much of a holistic practicioner.


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## Julie (Oct 6, 2007)

UPDATE

Noel is doing better (Thank You God !)
Still loopy and not completely focused or balanced - but she is walking around alot more ! And also is looking for grain. She was up and about the entire time I was in the barn to milk Mika and bottlefeed Cotton Candy. Like I said - she's still unbalanced though, and she did go to shake (how they shake their whole body sometimes) and fell over ...hahaha (poor girl). But she seems alot better than earlier. And her eyes look a little better to - she looks like she can focus more than what she could before, but still not completely right yet - you can still see her eyes looking kind of "spacey" yet.

While I was down there - I did give her the children's aspirin. I hope to God I did the right thing ! She chewed it up like candy. Which reminds me - I left the rest of the aspirin down there in a baggy ! I hope the cats don't get into it thinking it's candy !! I better run down and get it !!! DUMB ME !


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh that is good to hear. 

We will pray that this is over quickly for you and she is back to her normal self. 

She did seem like a very timid doe when I visited, I always feel extra sorry for those types as they always get picked on no matter how obscure they try to be.


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## Tog Lovers (Oct 10, 2007)

So glad she is feeling better. Will pray she continues to get better.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Glad to here she is doing better 

If you have a health food store near you though, get the homeopathic remedies Arnica Montana 30c and Hypericum Perforatum 30c, Arnica is for pain and swelling and will help her if she does have a serious concussion, and Hypericum is for fine tissue damage. Give Arnica in the morning and Hypericum at night. It will help with her recovery.

Good luck


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

That is good news- if she is improving so fast, she's probably doing just fine. 
A lot of time I feel so conflicted about following vet's advice because they are so bad with goats but when I am not sure they are wrong, I feel that the vet should have more experience and knowledge and, especially in an emergency, would follow their directions. 
If the asprin was going to cause a problem, it would not have improved. So good for you and Noel- I hope she's back to normal soon.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Julie, I am so glad to hear that she is doing better. That is always Great news.

I have to say when it comes to treating her with the Aspirin, I see both sides. I agree with enjoytheride, and the bleeding, but then again I see why I would do it also. 

In some cases I truly believe you have to go with your GUT.


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## Julie (Oct 6, 2007)

*Re: Disoriented Doe ?? Help ...UPDATE*

UPDATE :
It is 6:42pm here, which is approx 29 1/2 hrs since the incident occurred. Noel is walking around alot more, and even jumping up on me, but she is still so spacey - and still unbalanced. Obviously she has more balance than she did previously - since she can jump up on me without falling down, but she still has a long way to go to be walking "normal" ... because she still stumbles alot and still cannot seem to focus correctly. To be completely honest - she acts like a retarded, off balance goat. And I hope that she isn't - because swelling of the brain, etc. can obviously cause problems as such. So I hope this isn't going to be a long term thing, I hope she gets over it and back to normal. Tomorrow at about 12 noon will be 48 hours. I will be praying for her to be normal before that, because after that I just don't know WHAT to do ! She's not like a sick or dying goat - eating just fine, sleeping fine, maaaing, trying to get in the grain every chance she gets - but she acts "retarded." And I only hope that isn't the case ! But if it is - I would rather have her like that, than have her dead !!! So I would still be grateful to have her alive  But don't know if I'd be able to put her in with my other goats if she has a long term problem. I will have to change my pen arrangement for sure. But I don't want to put the carriage BEFORE the horse ! Guess I should just wait and see what comes of this. And PRAY PRAY PRAY ! I already layed my hands on her and prayed once, but since my mom is comming out for supper - I think me and her will go down and pray for her together. Jasmine to. So please keep her in your prayers !! Pray for a full, speedy recovery  Thanks ! I will continue to keep you's updated.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

pray works wonders. I am happy to hear of the little improvement but will keep her in my prayers!


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

She's made fast progress already- just needs time to heal I think.


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## Julie (Oct 6, 2007)

UPDATE
This morning she is still "loopy"
She seems to be SLOWLY progressing - because I think she looks a little better this morning, and that's how she's been doing - ever since the incident she SLOWLY has seemed to be commin around. And that's even before giving the aspiring and/or the V. B. (Vitamin B Complex - someone suggested I give her) But I will do whatever I can to help her situation. I was hesitant to give the aspirin, but she did have a couple doses of that. I didn't really hesitate to give the Vitamin B because I'm SURE this was from being rammed, BUT I also know that the V.B. couldn't "hurt" her ... so why not give it to be on the safe side  

There was a suggestion that perhaps this isn't a concussion - but instead a disease (such as polio) that was "sprung into action" from the ramming ... But ....
The reason why I'm sure that her problem is a result of being rammed is because this doe was perfectly normal - just like my other does. Never a problem of any kind since I had her. Stacey and Heather can both testify to that - because they both seen her as well. And when the incident happened - I JUST got done feeding (which she was normal then as well, and ate her food, and didn't act "off" in any way) and was cleaning up food bowls (still in their pen - within only about 2-3 feet from where Noel was standing when she got rammed) and Mika rammed Noel against the wall (sturdy wood stall wall). And it dropped Noel to the ground in that instant. And she also grunted when she was rammed. IN the INSTANT she was rammed - the problems started. It's not like she got rammed -and then 5 minutes later she acted this way - this was instant. She couldn't even get up from being rammed - she just lay there looking dazed and confused. I went over and picked her up and stood her on her feet and she stumbled around. SO I took her out of the pen and she's been "loopy" and unbalanced ever since.
She has SLOWLY (almost unoticeably) making progress. But I can tell a tiny difference each morning so far.

The vet also thought it was a conucsion - NOT that I always believe my vet, cause I will say that my vet is dumb when it comes to goats. But I figured that a concussion was a general thing - for any animal, it's not goat specific. So that's why I called the vet. And like I said, he was also convinced it was a concusion. 

I know it seems "odd" for a goat to get a concusion - I mean, we all have seen goats get RAMMED, and my buck "Billy" and other buck "Hank" got into it so hard that Billy's horn base was bleeding already ! SO I know this is ODD ... but I still believe that it's what happened because I was right there and almost seen it - they were directly behind me. So I know everything that happened. ANd plus - Mika is heavier than Noel and also Mika has horns. PLUS the fact that she rammed her against the stall wall. So I truly believe that it is very possibly and even likely that it's a concusion. But I will take any suggestions/recommendations that anyone wants to offer - I just want Noel to get better. 

So thanks everyone so far for your suggestions - and keep them comming if you think of anything else  

I'm a little at a loss of what to do at this point - I hate to give "to much "aspirin" and also hate to use all of my Vitamin B if she has a concusion and the V.B. isn't really helping (but I don't really know for sure either way). I just am not sure what to do for her.
A couple ppl suggested to me a natural method of treating her - but I don't have any of the stuff suggested, and can't "easily" get it. And she is progressing - just very slowly it seems. So I dunno. Please keep her in your prayers - that's the best thing I know to do.


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

I think if she was going to bleed from the asprin, she would have done so already. I guess I have some personal factors that bias my advice with this- one is the I personally have trouble with bleeding when on asprin. The other is that my Mom fell and had a concussion- she was taking a blood thinner for her heart. They did a scan but missed a small bleed so she was put back on the blood thinner and the result was a massive bleeding in her brain with devistating results. So I'm hyper-careful about it.
The effects of a concussion can be slow to heal as I have had people tell me that they felt the effects months after.
What did the vet say about steroid? Not good to use a lot but I wonder in this situation. They are pretty inexpensive.
Also I think a b complex is always a good thing and B1 is pretty inexpensive insurance.
I'm glad she is improving- if she is showing improvement it means she can improve and it's early days yet. I think you're doing what can be done .


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I think at this point Julie, as long as she continues to eat and drink with no problem, it would be best to just "baby" her, a knock in the head would put anyone to their knees! The B-Complex is a good thing too so I do think I would continiue with that. Prayers sent your way to help her heal and to "lighten your load", TLC and a watchful eye I think will do her a world of good. BTW...those boys must have steel plates in their fore heads...Chief thinks he has horns like Hank and the way they bash together makes MY head hurt!


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I am glad to hear she is improving and I hope she is soon back to normal. :thumb:


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## Shultzdennis (Mar 13, 2015)

My billy is doing the same thing he was knocked out by another billy and now he is eating hay laying down I get him up every 2hrs or so he tries to walk but it seems like I drag him most of the time he is 9 months old and don't know what I can do for him


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## Cactus_Acres (Sep 24, 2013)

Start a new thread if you need some advice for your goat. This one is nearly seven years old, and you'll get more responses on a new thread.


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