# Should I get a LGD?



## sunnyacres (4 mo ago)

I've had my goats for about 9 months now, with no predator issues. One of my does kidded a few weeks ago, and I separated her and her kid last night for the first time, so that I could milk her this morning. The separation caused the kid to cry out very loudly for a long while, and at one point, when I stepped out to check on him, I heard a large pack of coyotes yipping and yelling very close by. I've heard them at a distance a few times in our 13 years here, but never so close! Needless to say, Ive spent a good part of today researching LGDs. I have an opportunity to get a 9 week old Great Pyrenees, with a small amount of Anatolian in it's background. She's been around goats since birth, and both of her parents work the farm that she would be coming from. I have to make a decision quickly, if I want her. She's their last pup available, and there doesn't seem to be much else available in my area right now. I don't have a large property though, just under 4 acres. And, it's not all fenced. I have a small permanent fenced area of 4' no-climb horse fence (about 300' rectangle, split into two pens) and 500' of 4' tall electric netting that I use for rotational grazing. Will this setup work with a LGD?

Edit to add: I have Nigerian Dwarfs.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Can you lock the goats up at night?


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## sunnyacres (4 mo ago)

ksalvagno said:


> Can you lock the goats up at night?


We only have three sided sheds 😔


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

sunnyacres said:


> I have an opportunity to get a 9 week old Great Pyrenees, with a small amount of Anatolian in it's background.


I understand your fear when hearing coyote nearby with kids on the ground. Possibly brainstorm ideas to beef up alternatives for the security of the goats whether through reenforcing the fencing, putting them into a closed barn, stall, and/or shed for protection, or some type of mechanical deterrent coyote are fearful of.

With the current situation a weanling pup would not offer any more protection against a pack of coyote than you currently have without an LGD. Also, there are 2 distinct qualities and dispositions with LGD, thus the reason LGD work better in pairs. Some LGD prefer to stay with the herd and others prefer to approach the suspected threat. If this pup were the type to approach and not yet have the size and maturity to handle the situation, the pup could be seriously mangled or killed.


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## sunnyacres (4 mo ago)

I'll try to rig something to close off one of the sheds today. I have some wood pallets that I can work with. We do plan to build a small barn soon, but it will be a couple more months. In the meantime, what should I do about the puppy? They want either a deposit, or pick-up, by the end of the day. I know that it will be a process to get her where she needs to be as a LGD. Should I go ahead and start that process sooner, rather than later?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Maybe @FizzyGoats has advice about the LGD pup.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I love my LGDs but a pup is just at risk from predators as a goat. A secure shelter is your best bet right now. However, if you’re wanting to get started now, so by next kidding season you’ll have some protection in place, a pup born around goats and from working parents is a good choice. They take a lot of time and energy to train. They need a secure, predator proof shelter at night, just like the goats. And they need a really good fence. And you pretty much have to be their mentor and trainer, supervising almost constantly to correct any bad behavior until it proves it is trustworthy around the livestock. The months of work is more than worth the years of service it will happily give, it’s just deciding whether or not you have the time, set up, and energy for a pup right now.


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## sunnyacres (4 mo ago)

NigerianNewbie said:


> I understand your fear when hearing coyote nearby with kids on the ground. Possibly brainstorm ideas to beef up alternatives for the security of the goats whether through reenforcing the fencing, putting them into a closed barn, stall, and/or shed for protection, or some type of mechanical deterrent coyote are fearful of.
> 
> With the current situation a weanling pup would not offer any more protection against a pack of coyote than you currently have without an LGD. Also, there are 2 distinct qualities and dispositions with LGD, thus the reason LGD work better in pairs. Some LGD prefer to stay with the herd and others prefer to approach the suspected threat. If this pup were the type to approach and not yet have the size and maturity to handle the situation, the pup could be seriously mangled or killed.


Do you know if this difference in temperament is noticable at nine weeks? If so, what should I look for, or ask the breeder? I would prefer a dog that leans more towards staying with the herd.


FizzyGoats said:


> I love my LGDs but a pup is just at risk from predators as a goat. A secure shelter is your best bet right now. However, if you’re wanting to get started now, so by next kidding season you’ll have some protection in place, a pup born around goats and from working parents is a good choice. They take a lot of time and energy to train. They need a secure, predator proof shelter at night, just like the goats. And they need a really good fence. And you pretty much have to be their mentor and trainer, supervising almost constantly to correct any bad behavior until it proves it is trustworthy around the livestock. The months of work is more than worth the years of service it will happily give, it’s just deciding whether or not you have the time, set up, and energy for a pup right now.


What would the fencing requirements be? I can add hotwire to my 4' no-climb, would that be enough? We just had it put up, and can't afford to replace it...


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think GP tend to be more of a perimeter guard which is why they are known for wondering. I’m constantly getting a phone call from one neighbor to keep a eye out for his and the other neighbor I finally had to threaten before she would do something to keep her dog home and not come to my house starting crap with my dogs. 
But even if I’m wrong on that my puppy I thought would be one that lived with the goats to protect when I fist got her. She eventually gravitated to perimeter guard. And even though she doesn’t go too far she still covers more then 4 acres. But might also have something to do with her thinking she needs to guard all the animals (she is currently laying out with the cows)
But for the hot fence yes! A strand on the top and bottom and a very mean hot fence unit should keep the coyotes from thinking twice about crossing into the goats pasture. My hot fence stopped two pits from getting into my goats years ago. The only bad thing about hot fence is if you live in a extremely dry climate it does t work very well in the summer when it’s beyond bone dry. They also make motion detector lights, alarms and even sprinklers. Some say the coyotes will get used to those but one side of my pasture has the lights and a alarm and I haven’t had anything even walk past there since I put them up. I wanted to do the whole fence line but then got the puppy and she seems to be doing what she is supposed to be doing now.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Closing in the barn is wise and will help protect the goats at night.

A LGP when older can protect, but do know this. Coyotes will keep your 1 dog busy while the other coyotes attack the goats.
Having more than 1 LGD is best for those situations.

Getting a well trained mature LGD is best, which will be instant alert to threats. If you hear barking go check.

Pups have to be trained and take a while before they are big enough to even to protect themselves during a threat.


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## Lyreth (9 d ago)

We have a lot of coyotes in our area and I agree with everyone saying you need at least 2 Livestock guardian dogs. I have 3 and they do a great job. One is a great pyrenees (female), one is a Karakachan (male) and the third, Turquoise, is a pyrenees/anatolian/karakachan mix (male). I got Turquoise from a working farm environment when he was one year old and already great with the livestock. That might be a good option if someone has an older pup with some training already, it worked great for us. We got the pyrenees as a puppy and she was instinctually very good with the livestock and I was always able to trust her from the moment she came on the farm. The karakachan we got just last spring and he did kill a couple of chickens and ducks in the first months. He required a lot more work and me keeping an eye on him pretty much constantly to make sure he was behaving. He's about 9 months old now and I do trust him around the chickens, but I feel like he still needs supervision with the newborn goat babies. So some dogs take more work than others, it really depends on their individual personalities I think.

I would also mention two other things. 1. They bark constantly. really. I wake up when they _stop_ barking now. lol. So if that is likely to bother you or your neighbors that might be something to consider. 2. Our dogs are really difficult to keep fenced in. The pyrenees in particular is a really good digger and will tunnel out of pretty much any fenced-in area. We've tried hot wire and all kinds of things, but pretty soon she'll always dig a new way to escape and run over a mile to the neighbors. (they are vacationers who don't understand working dogs and they feed her "treats" and bring her in the house). Fortunately they are not here very often and we live on a narrow gravel road with very little traffic so I'm not worried about her getting run over, but it is frustrating when I want her home looking after the other animals.


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## sunnyacres (4 mo ago)

Lyreth said:


> We have a lot of coyotes in our area and I agree with everyone saying you need at least 2 Livestock guardian dogs. I have 3 and they do a great job. One is a great pyrenees (female), one is a Karakachan (male) and the third, Turquoise, is a pyrenees/anatolian/karakachan mix (male). I got Turquoise from a working farm environment when he was one year old and already great with the livestock. That might be a good option if someone has an older pup with some training already, it worked great for us. We got the pyrenees as a puppy and she was instinctually very good with the livestock and I was always able to trust her from the moment she came on the farm. The karakachan we got just last spring and he did kill a couple of chickens and ducks in the first months. He required a lot more work and me keeping an eye on him pretty much constantly to make sure he was behaving. He's about 9 months old now and I do trust him around the chickens, but I feel like he still needs supervision with the newborn goat babies. So some dogs take more work than others, it really depends on their individual personalities I think.
> 
> I would also mention two other things. 1. They bark constantly. really. I wake up when they _stop_ barking now. lol. So if that is likely to bother you or your neighbors that might be something to consider. 2. Our dogs are really difficult to keep fenced in. The pyrenees in particular is a really good digger and will tunnel out of pretty much any fenced-in area. We've tried hot wire and all kinds of things, but pretty soon she'll always dig a new way to escape and run over a mile to the neighbors. (they are vacationers who don't understand working dogs and they feed her "treats" and bring her in the house). Fortunately they are not here very often and we live on a narrow gravel road with very little traffic so I'm not worried about her getting run over, but it is frustrating when I want her home looking after the other animals.


I would love to get an experienced one! Unfortunately, the only adult I've found for sale nearby is being sold because he didn't do well with sheep. At least the seller was honest though!


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

Probably what you need is a pair of adult, trained LGDs that can work together from the git go and protect the herd


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## Brooklynn J. (4 mo ago)

Agree with getting an adult. Warning: GP are prone to wander.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

sunnyacres said:


> Do you know if this difference in temperament is noticable at nine weeks? If so, what should I look for, or ask the breeder? I would prefer a dog that leans more towards staying with the herd.
> 
> 
> What would the fencing requirements be? I can add hotwire to my 4' no-climb, would that be enough? We just had it put up, and can't afford to replace it...


That fence should be good with hot wire. Once a pup is trained on a hot wire, they are usually a lot better at respecting a fence than other dogs (but some are just escape artists). I don’t know if you have more goats kidding soon, but if so, you’ll need to be really careful with kidding and baby goats, both for the sake of the puppy (protective, hormonal moms) and the puppy playing with the babies (which can easily turn to accidentally killing/injuring them). If you’re wanting the dog and have a safe place to keep it at night and lots of time to devote to observing and correcting (plus a way to separate the pup for either it’s safety or the goats’), then I’d have a conversation with the breeder about if this is the right pup for you. Just tell the breeder what you want and need, and ask if they think the available pup seems like it would work. It’s a guess at that age, but at least from the breeder it’s an educated guess.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

sunnyacres said:


> Do you know if this difference in temperament is noticable at nine weeks? If so, what should I look for, or ask the breeder? I would prefer a dog that leans more towards staying with the herd.


I don't know the age a pup would begin to show protective tendencies, I've only seen the differences within pairs of working LGD. If the breeders of this pup have temperament tested these pups, there may be indications towards how the pup would approach its role when older.

If the dog were of the type to stay with the herd, there wouldn't be any LGD protection acting as a deterrent and first line of defense against approaching coyote. With a lone LGD, the coyote would still risk approaching if they desired to take out members of a herd of goat, could easily get into the enclosure if not well fortified, and potentially tangle with the dog while other pack members preyed on the goats.

As toth boer goats stated:


toth boer goats said:


> Coyotes will keep your 1 dog busy while the other coyotes attack the goats.


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## sunnyacres (4 mo ago)

We ended up getting the puppy this evening. We were very impressed with her parents, and their goats were also Nigerian Dwarfs. Everyone is secured for the night. The puppy is separated from the goats, but close by. Tomorrow begins her training. Any advice is welcome!


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## Brooklynn J. (4 mo ago)

I recommend getting a shock collar once she’s old enough and learning how to use it. When she’s older she may go through a biting/chasing faze. Fix it immediately and NEVER let her “play” with the goats in order to bond. Gentle licking is fine.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Very cute!


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

What a cutie! Her face is so sweet. 

I agree with above, play and chase are NEVER allowed with the goats. Gently licking the face of the goats is friendly and submissive behavior. The pup should approach them slowly with head low, or let the goats come to the pup. Your goats may be afraid of the little pup at first and run away, don’t allow the pup to give chase if that happens. Also, if you have a goat that teaches the pup manners for you, wonderful. But you want to make sure that’s all it is doing and that it doesn’t try to hurt the pup. My herd queen is great about giving my pup a warning if he’s being obnoxious and then head butting him just hard enough that he gets the point and submits but she’s never hurt him or gone after him for no reason. My bucks, believe it or not, are too gentle and won’t give my little stinker a pop when he deserves it. So I do it for them. If you don’t have other dogs for her to burn off play energy, then you’ll have to help her release that pup energy appropriately. Mostly, raising an LGD pup is a ton of observation and correcting any excited behavior toward the goats. It takes a few days for the pup to settle in at first. Lots of people on here have LGDs and great advice on them. So don’t hesitate to ask if you have any specific questions.


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