# Swayback?



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I thought having a swayback or severely broken behind the shoulders was a major conformational flaw?

We were at a show the past couple of days, first time at an ABGA event. First night the judge was awesome. Second day, the judge seemed alright until she got to a young buck class. 
I don't like to pick on anyone or their goats, I know our goats aren't perfect, so I mean no disrespect.

But OMG... there was a buck kid that was horribly swayback! he looked like his back had been broken behind the shoulders, and had a 'u' shape! Even when he walked, no matter what he looked this way. 
The judge even spent a lot of time debating on this one vs. another one. Even the people around us couldn't believe it. 

It WON the class! 

The night before the other judge had placed that one last because of his flaws. 

So do the judges typically overlook this issue? Am I wrong to assume this goat has bad conformation? He was nice, and wide/meaty but OMG that back. It was so bad that at the 2nd show, I was standing to the right, and it looked like the buck didn't even have a back. 

Again don't want to knock anyone, but my goodness, I thought this was a trait you didn't want in the ring?

This was a line up picture I got of the young bucks before they were placed in final show order. I think you can pick out the one I am talking about.

Thoughts?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

There are good and bad judges out there. The 2nd judge may be one of the bad ones.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

He's right after the 2 mostly brown goats.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Sorry, thought the picture would be bigger. 

I was also wrong, he placed 3rd I believe in the 1st show. Still, wondering thoughts on having such a dip behind the shoulders in these type of shows?


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

HoosierShadow said:


> Sorry, thought the picture would be bigger.
> 
> I was also wrong, he placed 3rd I believe in the 1st show. Still, wondering thoughts on having such a dip behind the shoulders in these
> type of shows?


There was a wether at our county show a couple years ago and he had an extremely dipped back when they were bracing him and he got second but the judge did note on his back he only judged on muscle and not confirmation but that was a market wether show

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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Yikes.... that's awful looking. He does look like one of the bigger boned bucks in the class, but it's hard to look past the top on him. I would never place that buck at the top of a class... unless the other bucks had flaws that were just as bad or worse. Maybe he was the widest/well muscled buck in the class and that's what the judge was looking for. Each judge has their certain things they are looking for and sometimes what they like surprises us... a lot!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Just out of curiosity... what about the one second in from the right? (handler in plaid) He appears a little swaybacked but his handler has his back legs set out way behind him. I was thinking with his legs under him it would be worse? I have no show experience but just curious! I like the wether being handled by the lady in hot pink the best in this photo.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Actually the 2nd from right is my daughters buck lol She stretches him out to far sometimes and makes him look bad. He has a steep rump, but he's not swayback - nothing like the other one as he doesn't break behind the shoulders and has a nice solid top. What makes his back look like that is just the fact he has a higher rump. He actually looks really nice when set up properly. He is definitely nothing like the other one as he levels out when he moves & isn't broken behind his shoulders. 
His biggest downfall is just the fact he isn't as wide as the others.

The paint buck on the end is my son's buck, he's very level, wish I had caught this picture at a different time when he wasn't putting his head back lol He actually did win the class on Day #1! He is clean teated, and very wide, IMO he probably had one of the best chests in the class.

I haven't edited any more pics from the show so I can't show my son's buck.
These are older pics, but the boys look the same, they are just bigger now lol


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Interesting! Yes I can see what you mean on your daughter's wether. Set up sure does make a difference and seeing them move I'm sure! Your son's wether is really handsome.


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

I live the coloring on your sons goats it unique 


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

Love not live 


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks I appreciate it. These are actually bucks not wethers  This was an ABGA show too, first one my kids have ever attended, so that's why I asked about the swayback, I just always assumed that was an unacceptable trait no matter how much muscle the goat had. We're trying to work on getting more level goats in our little backyard herd, as some tend to be higher in the rump. However that seems to be the issue for many people like us. In the county fairs/shows we've been to, you don't see those long, tubular straight backs unless they are from the big/competitive type breeders.
My issue is I am not the greatest judge on pasterns, I never have been a good judge on them, even horses. I see horses walk at sales all the time and I just can't judge the pasterns lol 

The only issue with the paint buck is you have to keep his feet trimmed up or he'll walk like a duck. He has good feet, but he's just so heavy on them. He's well over 100lbs.


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## SunnydaleBoers (Jul 28, 2012)

Hard to tell from the pics for certain, but the swayback buck does seem to have the biggest rump in the group- maybe the judge was going after that. I'd agree though, I don't like much else about him. He seems awfully posty on those back legs too. Congratulations on your kids' turnout too! They have to be proud to place at their first ABGA show!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Nice!!! I really like that paint buck!! Congrats!!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

He won at least 3 points for getting 1st since I see 6 goats in that picture. How many bucks were in the class?


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

It a huge conformation flaw! I would have likely placed him down for it but I'd need to see them in person and hear the judges reasons.


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## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

Ehhhh...it doesn't necessarily mean he automatically places last. You want a strong back...but if he was the widest, most powerfully muscled, structurally correct most masculine goat in the class...as it appears on the side profile...then I wouldn't mind placing him high because of that. Maybe not first, but not last. Breed standards say that it is a fault, not a DQ: "Faults: Concave or swayback"

I dont think he is swayback or concave...weak topped, yes...but to me THIS goat is swayback










see the difference?


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## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

Not to mention its obviously a young class and he is "running downhill" in his topline...typical of goats that age that are going through growing changes.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I don't know the how the score card for ABGA is composed, but we recently got a nice lesson from an ADGA judge. There IS a judging rubric and trained judges - especially those sanctioned by ABGA or ADGA - are supposed to judge within those standards. However, she told us that in the larger point categories, judges have a lot of leeway for their own preferences in the various breeds. ie. If he/she has a hankering for powerful legs and wide ribs, he/she can slant the judging that way and still be completely on board with the official scoring. That leeway also allows them to overlook faults in areas they don't prize as highly. That's one reason why 2 different judges can place the same goats so differently.


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## brbn (Nov 30, 2011)

I totally see where you are coming from. I have been to shows and have the goats placed in my mind and the judge places them backward or obviously misses my pick of the class. I think that every judge has his/her pet peeves/preferences. Some judges cant stand certain things like knock kneed or steep rumped or tracking narrow....That is why it is sometimes hard to follow and sometimes even understand what some judges are saying, because there pet peeves are usually not our pet peeves. I would rather see a goat that is week in the chine over a narrow made goat but you may have different preferences. I think as long as the judge was consistent with his reasoning and defended his placings with good explanations, then you may have a case of a judge that has different preferences than you do. By the way I think both of your bucks look amazing in the picture and you have done a great job with them!


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