# Hooves rolling under -- help?



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

When I brought Totsie home last December she very ill and was pretty much cripple. A lot of kind and caring people on this site helped walk us thru those months -- and overall she's doing AWESOME! (In fact, she finally came into a standing heat last week, so she may now be pregnant!) The current issue is with her hooves again. 

As I said, when she came to us she was virtually cripple. A lot of time and trims (and more time and more trims) and we got her hooves much improved and she was traveling normally! We discovered pockets of separated, flaking and spongy walls; walls curled totally under so the sole was fully encased in hard horn (ouch!)...in fact there were several layers of that mess! For a few months she stood and moved with no apparent pain! It was awesome. 

Within the last month her front hooves have started rolling -- most significantly on the inside toe. The rear ones look pretty good, but the front inside toe is a mess! I've been trying to trim the inside more, but it's extremely hard (think rock)! It's beginning to impact her movement again...at least she's being more thoughtful of where she walks, getting onto and off of the milking stand, up and down steps and so on. Photos attached. #1 and #2 are front, #3 and #4 are rear. 

Any ideas as to possible cause and how to fix? Thanks!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Sorry to be a pain - but could you also post a photo of the underside of one of the front feet?

In the first photo it looks like there is too much toe left on the front feet entirely (she is rocked back) - are you unable to get the bottom of the hooves parallel with the coronary band because you would have to remove too much and she would bleed?

You may have to trim immediately after a large rain storm, or put her in a hoof bath for 15 minutes before trimming if the walls are too tough.


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## MO_Boers (Aug 3, 2015)

I agree a pic of underside of the hoof will give a better idea of what's going on. 
Looks like you might be cutting it to much at an angle or cutting off to much of the heel? Im only guessing here from the pics. But her feet don't look half bad. She may be one that doesn't have good feet under her an you just have to do corrective trimming more often than you do your others.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I wonder if she had foundered at some point before you got her?


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

SalteyLove said:


> Sorry to be a pain - but could you also post a photo of the underside of one of the front feet?
> 
> In the first photo it looks like there is too much toe left on the front feet entirely (she is rocked back) - are you unable to get the bottom of the hooves parallel with the coronary band because you would have to remove too much and she would bleed?
> 
> You may have to trim immediately after a large rain storm, or put her in a hoof bath for 15 minutes before trimming if the walls are too tough.


Here you go. I last trimmed 2 weeks ago. Note the difference in wall thickness...the outside wall is significantly thicker than the inside wall...that's always been problematic. I typically snip the toe end, then begin to work on the walls, then finish up with a filing. I did not file the last time, but the trim before I drew blood. ( I try to work on her every 2-3 weeks because of the problems we've had with her feet. Poor girl...it really traumatizes her.

Thanks for the "soak her feet" tip. Maybe some epsom salts too? Anything you notice from the photos? Thanks!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

lottsagoats1 said:


> I wonder if she had foundered at some point before you got her?


I've wondered that myself. Honestly, when I got her she walked like a gaited horse in slow motion! Picked the front legs really high -- hyper extended, placed extremely carefully... It was excruciating to watch! The day she actually ran and engaged in play with the other goats (rearing, jousting) was one for the record books!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

How is she for copper? Copper deficiency can cause the toes to curl/roll under.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

If you draw an imaginary line from heel to toe on the front, you will get a good idea on how much toe to remove.
The inside left needs to be level with the outside. 
Her rear feet look great!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> How is she for copper? Copper deficiency can cause the toes to curl/roll under.


She had been doing really well for about 4 months, but just this last couple of weeks (pretty much simultaneous to the hoof rolling) her coat has been gradually getting coarse. I gave all the goats their semi-annual selenium (2cc) on Sept 12. I use a really good loose mineral with really high copper, but now that I think about it I haven't noticed her eating it recently. She may need a bolus. Thanks.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

nancy d said:


> If you draw an imaginary line from heel to toe on the front, you will get a good idea on how much toe to remove.
> Her rear feet look great!


Thanks for the encouragement re: the rear! Can you explain a bit more on taking off extra toe? I'm not sure I'm picturing it, and definitely am not sure how to pull it off! I know I want to shoot for a level line roughly parallel to the coronet band. And as far as trimming that inside wall (the "shelf") ...do I want to try to nip that (more like chisel it!) or how would I handle that? Thanks!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

I just got back in from working on her a bit. Even after 2+ weeks, there was virtually no hoof wall to trim on the front. Rather, the sole had grown out, protruding below the wall!!! Poor dear...even apart from the rolling it's no wonder she's tender! I decided to use only my rasp and try to gently reshape the hoof. Here's hoping...


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

These may help you visualize it. On very tough cases, I have occasionally taken a sharpie marker out with me and literally drawn a line parallel to the coronary band a few inches down the hoof - then you kind of have a "goal" and visual aid as you have the hoof upside down for trimming.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

That is absolutely awesome, Katey! Thank you!!!


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

SalteyLove said:


> These may help you visualize it. On very tough cases, I have occasionally taken a sharpie marker out with me and literally drawn a line parallel to the coronary band a few inches down the hoof - then you kind of have a "goal" and visual aid as you have the hoof upside down for trimming.


This is amazing. I'm saving this into my phone for future use!!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

OK...bear with me, plz! I'm studying the hoof trim diagrams (they're great, btw!) and comparing them to the photos of Totsie's feet. I presume I need to simply work gradually (maybe weekly?) to bring the toes back and get the bottom in line with the coronet band. I'm presuming further that this should take care of the "rolling" problem and get her off her heels and back onto her toes, right? 

Did anyone notice the scalloped nature of the outer wall in the last 2 pictures I uploaded? It's like the hoof is rippled, and the wall is very, very thick. Do you think that is correctable? Thanks!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Anything is correctable, this is after one trim. I apologize that I did not get more pictures, this doe was rather hard to work on. In the last pic, you will note that she was still rocked back a little. That corrected itself after her tendons tightened back up.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Wow, Little bits n Pieces -- that's amazing! You took all that off on a single trim? You're a brave woman! LOL OK...gives me hope. Thanks so much for weighing in and sharing! 

Also -- in addition to the diagram and photos Saltey (Katey) shared in this thread, she also shared a great article in another thread ("What to do with this hoof?") The article and photo captions give a good step-by-step primer in hoof care. Thank you for sharing, katey!


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## AncientBlue (Dec 21, 2014)

I love that diagram above. I need to see about printing it out for a reference. 

When we got Annabelle her hooves were in bad shape. It took me the better part of 2 months to get them under control. Hers grow together on the bottom which makes it really tricky to try to remove the excess without hurting her.


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