# EMERGENCY - very tiny, weak runt; thick colostrum



## milkmaid

*Very tiny, weak runt; thick colostrum*

Triplets, boys are strong and healthy, the girl is extremely tiny and very weak. Advice please.
Mama's colostrum is way too thick - mastitis??? It's very smooth and thick, not lumpy at all.


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## Talron

I cant help but sending good thoughts and prayers for the little girl. :hug:


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## canyontrailgoats

She needs to be 100 degrees before feeding her milk. Bring her in the house, and use heating pads or a hair dryer to warm her up. Once she's at the right temp, you'll have to tube feed her if she won't suckle on her own.

Colostrum is usually thick and harder to get out. Can the boys nurse? Massage the udder good, and try applying heat to loosen it up.


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## kc8lsk

Use milk to thin colostrum down and bottle feed her there's nothing wrong withe momma's colostrum as I had one do that this year but the little girl needs you to thin it down to get it into her.


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## canyontrailgoats

Molasses or honey on her toungue will provide a quick energy boost, and vit b. I hope your little girl makes it!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Milk a few ounces from mom, and warm the baby up and tube her. Brings them around real quick! Good luck!


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## milkmaid

Wow, thanks for all the advice! When she slid out I KNEW she wasn't going to make it, but she's holding her head up and even trying (weakly) to stand!!! She's teeny weeny, but shows all the signs of a fighter. 
Canyontrail, yes, the boys are able to nurse.
Can someone give me a good link on tube feeding please?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I don't know of any good links to tube feeding, I'll try to search for on in a minute. 
I use a size 10fr tube, size 12 will work well too, with a 60cc/2oz catheter tip syringe. Heat the milk up to where it feels good and warm on your wrist. Measure the tip of the feeding tube from the kids last rib, all the way up the kids lips. Mark that point with a marker. 
Draw the milk up in the syringe, and attach the tube, depress the plunger until milk starts coming out the end, this is to get the air out. 
The slide the tube into the kids mouth, just down the middle, and let her start to swallow it. Keep feeding the tube down as she swallows, stop feeding the tube down when you get to the point you marked. That means you are in the stomach now. If the tube stops before that point you marked, pull it out and try again.
After the tube is in place, make she she is breathing fine, no gagging etc. 
If all is clear, go ahead and give some milk, just until her belly feels full, not tight as a tick, and not still sunk in, but nice and full, slightly rounded even. 
Pull the tube out and you're done.


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## milkmaid

Thank you so much for all that information, Little Bits!
Looks like I don't need it yet - got her warmed up and she's sucking, though I'm still concerned about her not getting enough because it's so thick. I've been milking into her mouth as she sucks, so I hope that helps. I do have another doe in milk so I can mix milk with it if necessary.
She is SO TINY!! Her legs are like pencils and her hooves are soft. She looks so fragile, but she surprises me with her strength. I'm hoping and praying...


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## Talron

She sounds so adorable. I hope she makes it she sounds like she has the will!


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## mayia97420

blessings to you and the tiny doeling


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## Goats Rock

This Spring, I had a buck Saanen kid born that was 9.5# and his tiny sister was 4#. She made it! 
I am sending good thoughts that your tiny one makes it too!


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## ThreeHavens

Make sure baby gets some milk every few hours, round the clock until you're positive she can nurse on her own. If you have herbs, some slippery elm or a pinch of cayenne should help her. Rub her, speak to her, encourage her to walk. Prayers being sent! You can also give a bit of coffee if she needs a nice kick in the pants.

Lori suggested this mixture in another thread: "Coffee, Whiskey, and Karo Syrup. I mix 2cc of each in a cup and give them about 1/2cc. It will give them a little pep and I will say it has saved many babies."


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## Karen

Good advice given, she'll be in my prayers! 

(I was a human premie, so always root for the little ones!)


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## happybleats

good advice...I too will add goats milk to thick colostrum when baby needs help...I agree...feed her every hour or two..dont let her go very long..as tiny as she is she can go down quick..got to keepher energy up...honey on the tongue helps boost the brain as will a drop of b complex...

sending prayers!!!


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## milkmaid

I just bottlefed her a couple ounces of colostrum mixed with milk. She's sucking well.
How many hours should I go between feedings, and how much per feeding?
She weighs 1lb 3oz just after the feeding.
I have her in the house with warm water bottles, but I want her mama to still have a claim on her, so I've been taking her out to get licked every hour or so. Mama gets excited whenever she sees her. 
ThreeHavens, I have slippery elm. What does that do?


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## happybleats

wow...so tiny!!!....

at aporx. 1.5 pounds times 16 is 24 oz...times 10% is 2.4 oz of milk PER DAY...divide into 4 feeding is 0.06 oz per bottle

with her being so tiny and weak..I think I would feed her every 2 hours, to keep her warm and strong...0.2 oz every 2 hours...keeping watch on her tummy..you can increase ever so slightly as her tummy seems to need..but I wouldnt be too eager to feed too much..she needs time to digest


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## Talron

My goodness is that a little baby! I know you said little but I never imagined she'd be that small.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I have had 1 pounders and 2 pounders before and I think they would kill me in my sleep if I tried to feed 2oz a day! :lol: I recently had a 2lber, preemie, on tube feeding for the first few days, and she was sucking down 8oz bottles per feeding by the time she was 5 days old. 
With the tiny ones, I try to feed them as much as they will take. I've yet to run into a problem with it so far. 

Now with day old 8 pounders, mine can easily go threw a 24oz bottle in a couple hours. Going by the 10% rule, they should be getting 12.8oz a day. 
That's just what I do here, do what feels right for you, you can judge how much she needs. Just feed her often


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## happybleats

I would be careful to feed too much at once...better to do less more often IMO...I do agree go with your gut..and hers..if she feels sunken then add a bit more..go slow..8 oz at one week sounds like a huge amount....but I know many whose baies do well on that amount...I think its more of a get them used to it..see what they can digest well..keep watch on poop.ect...lots of signs to watch...10% of body weight is a starting point...


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## canyontrailgoats

I'm glad she's improving! Can we see pics of this tiny girl?


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## milkmaid

Thanks for all the help everyone!
Yes, I'll try to get pics of her and her brothers up in birth announcements soon. 
ETA a link to their album: https://picasaweb.google.com/117715058357627348492/2014Kids?authkey=Gv1sRgCI2kw_LkwJjfGw


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## milkmaid

Her tummy's making a lot of noise as though it's upset. Should I cut back on amount?
I've been making her take about an ounce every two hours, and she's waking me up almost on the dot by squeaking, so I'm guessing she is hungry - but the last two feedings she hasn't wanted to suck at all. She seems strong and bright - last feeding she was able to stand for a second or two when I set her up. This time she almost did, but not quite, so she may be SLIGHTLY weaker, but she still seems just as bright and curious. Holding her head up and looking around.
BTW I have not seen the meconium yet, and I think I would have if she had passed it.


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## ThreeHavens

happybleats said:


> I would be careful to feed too much at once...better to do less more often IMO...I do agree go with your gut..and hers..if she feels sunken then add a bit more..go slow..8 oz at one week sounds like a huge amount....but I know many whose baies do well on that amount...I think its more of a get them used to it..see what they can digest well..keep watch on poop.ect...lots of signs to watch...10% of body weight is a starting point...


I completely agree - a bit too little is a lot safer than too much, especially with babies who have had a hard start. I had my little Xena get Entero.



milkmaid said:


> Her tummy's making a lot of noise as though it's upset. Should I cut back on amount?
> I've been making her take about an ounce every two hours, and she's waking me up almost on the dot by squeaking, so I'm guessing she is hungry - but the last two feedings she hasn't wanted to suck at all. She seems strong and bright - last feeding she was able to stand for a second or two when I set her up. This time she almost did, but not quite, so she may be SLIGHTLY weaker, but she still seems just as bright and curious. Holding her head up and looking around.
> BTW I have not seen the meconium yet, and I think I would have if she had passed it.


I would give her an enema if you haven't seen her poop, and cut back on the milk. You want her tummy to be flat, or ever so slightly rounded, not tight. If she continues to not eat or starts acting ill, I would consider giving her a CD anti-toxin.


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## milkmaid

OK, she passed the meconium this morning and peed a LOT. Now I think her tummy is too quiet, and she's still not sucking. She still seems reasonably strong though. She's able to stand again (if I set her up).


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## ksalvagno

When did you last get a B Complex shot into her?


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## ThreeHavens

Is her tummy sloshy? I'd get the CD anti-toxin into her if you feel something's off. We want to get her sucking again. Glad she passed the meconium.


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## Trickyroo

Wow , what a tiny little angel  Prayers the little girl makes it milkmaid :hug:
She is a fighter for sure ! Here's the link for the tube feeding , just in case.






I know you must know this , but keeping her warm and fed and of course talk to her a lot , it helps stimulate her and gives her reason to fight  
How are the boys and momma doing ?


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## toth boer goats

Hope she will be OK.

She is adorable.


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## milkmaid

Thanks everyone...no B complex yet. I have oral B complex, but my injectable expired recently and I haven't gotten another. Will oral work?
Mama and brothers doing fine.  My brother thinks she is actually younger (conceived later) than the other two. Makes sense to me; she looks a bit premature. That can happen with a secondary heat, right?
I will update her status in a few minutes after her next feeding.
I hope TSC carries B complex and CD antitoxin.


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## milkmaid

She's pooping regularly (it's turned yellow now) and swallowing when I feed her through a syringe.


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## happybleats

I understand you can give B complex orally until 24 hours old..then it will need to be injected..

to stimulate her sucking reflex put honey on your finger ( maybe you pinky lol), set it far back on her tongue and let her suck it off...do this a few times then have a bottle ready with honey on the nipple and slip it in once she is sucking well..
give tiny amounts of milk several times a day as I stated before...

best wishes...


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## ThreeHavens

She may need a touch of selenium. That has helped weak kids here.  Really tends to help suckling reflex.


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## milkmaid

She is still pooping. She can still stand if I set her up, but she is just not getting stronger like I think she should be. Her tummy is squishy and just a bit round - not distended, but I feel it's not quite right. My gut feeling says watch out for FKS/entero...but TSC does not have C&D antitioxin and the vet and other feed stores are closed...
I did give thiamine orally. She's not quite 24 hrs old yet.


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## ThreeHavens

Activated charcoal may help; I have used it for entero. I think I would also wait to give her more milk until her tummy is right again ... I would at least skip a couple feedings if she's not digesting the milk right. Do you have a good goat vet? His advice may be useful in this situation.

Here is an article on FKS: http://www.goatworld.com/articles/fks/fksrw.shtml


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## Trickyroo

Does your vet have a cell number you can reach them at ? Maybe you can pick up some antitoxin from them…….just a thought.

I was thinking tube feeding electrolytes and probios would be a good idea ,then i read the link Danielle posted , thanks D 
At least they can start working on correcting her tummy upset  
Poor thing is going to have one heckuva fight , and she isn't even a day old yet  Fight little angel , you can do it ! :hugs:
Glad momma and boys are doing well :hug:


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## ThreeHavens

I'll be praying for her tonight. I know how consuming and rough it is to have a struggling kid.


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## happybleats

I agree...follow your gut feeling..if things seem off..I would stop milk...use quality electrolite...you can give a bit of baking soda in case you are dealing with FKS...Squishy belly tells me she is not digesting...Saddly with those so little there is a chance there is something not quite developed internal...

((hugs)) and best wishes


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## toth boer goats

I agree.

Prayers sent.


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## ThreeHavens

Came on to check on the little one. Been in my thoughts and prayers.


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## happybleats

me too..: )


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## Trickyroo

Me too


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## milkmaid

Thanks everyone for all the help and prayers! And thank you God for the answers! She is doing great today - sucking well and walking around a bit. She even stood up on her own once! She's got a lot of spunk for such a tiny thing. Her tummy feels better too. She has diarrhea, but that's probably because of the vitamin C. I've stopped the C, so it should go away soon.
She is still quite weak ans wobbly, but I'm hoping she's through the worst of it.
Hugs everyone! I am so thankful for you all!
Baby Cosette is chewing on my shirt. I'm going to go see if she'll nurse now.


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## nannysrus

Aww!!! Still sending prayers! Glad to hear she is more lively!


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## margaret

Praying for your baby, I'm glad she's doing better this morning


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## happybleats

keep up the good work!!


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## Trickyroo

Yay , thats totally awesome news :wahoo: so happy to hear it :leap:


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## ThreeHavens

Yesss! Keep up the good work, and don't overdo the milk!


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## milkmaid

She is scouring even worse, and she should have stopped before now if it were caused by the vitamin C.
I am giving her a tsp of milk every 2 hours - but the last few I have been giving her a tsp an hour because she is acting so hungry and her tummy looked a bit sunken. Is that too much?
It doesn't help that my brother just returned from Haiti with dysentery. He's feeling better now. I've been careful to wash my hands before touching Cosette, but I'm so afraid she has caught it. :GAAH: She seems to _feel _fine; she's lively and curious, so that's a good sign.


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## jannerbanner

I'm wondering if maybe she has iodine deficiency?? This can cause the baby girls to be small and weak. Did her fur look normal?


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## milkmaid

Yes, her fur is normal. Thanks for suggesting that. I did think of iodine deficiency, but I don't think it's that because mama was getting plenty of kelp for the latter part of the pregnancy. Also, Annie's doeling, born close to the same time, was super strong and healthy. I think it's probably just that the bigger boys got more nutrition than she did. Or she was conceived at a five-day heat. The dam passed two placentas.
I genuinely don't feel that anything is "wrong" with her - no birth defects or deficiencies. She seems "fine" mentally and physically, just very small and slightly underdeveloped (teeth not all the way in, head to body ratio a little large). That's my strong gut feeling.
The problem now is the scouring. Any suggestions? I do have a very safe natural antibiotic I can give her.


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## nannysrus

I don't know much about little bitty babies but maybe pepto??? I wish I knew something but I feel kind if dumb suggesting pepto


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## milkmaid

Others have suggested pepto; I don't think it's dumb. 
I'm keeping her hydrated and making sure she has electrolytes. I just don't want to treat the symptoms; if she has an infection, the scouring is her body trying to get rid of it.


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## happybleats

is she scours yellow? once again you need to stop milk and go electros until she firms up...poor little girl will have a fight for life for a while..


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## Kiddskids

I hope this little girl gets better. Sorry to hear she weak! Prayers going your way


Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


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## Trickyroo

IMO the pepto will help her along with what happy bleats mentioned about the electrolytes and stopping the milk till she firms up.
She can still rid her body of infection , but she won't lose as much water doing it. Just a thought  Childrens pepto contains no aspirin , so its better for her tummy 
Keeping the prayers coming for the little angel :hug:


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## milkmaid

OK, thanks for the advice!


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## ThreeHavens

I agree with what was said.


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## Trickyroo

How's the baby today ?


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## milkmaid

Not too good.  She was really low last night - very dehydrated and pooping water - but I found a recipe for homemade "pedialyte" (coconut water and salt) and was giving her that, and she perked up a little. Early this morning I went to get the Pepto Bismol and real Pedialyte.
After the Pepto, the diarrhea slowed a LOT (not completely, yet), and now her tummy is too full. *I'm not giving her any more Pedialyte until her tummy is better, but I need advice.* Seems I always overtreat or undertreat.  I bet this whole ordeal is because I gave her too much milk for one feeding.
She is doing a bit better now, but is definitely weaker than yesterday and *still somewhat dehydrated.* Yet she protests when I confine her between the two warm water bottles. I think she still has a fighting chance!
What is Pepto Bismol dosage for goats? I had to guess, basing it off the dosage for humans.
Funny I don't feel sleepy at all; I'll probably crash once she's out of the woods!
Such a dainty little fairy baby, and she was doing so well at first! I REALLY want her to pull through. (Of course.)


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## happybleats

poor little baby...pepto is human dose...she is tiny enough she shouldnt need much..she needs the electrolytes in the same amount she would drink milk to keep her hydrated...being so tiny she can dehydrate super fast..she may not be able to regulate her body temo so keeping her in a box with a heating pad is needed...if her lungs do not sound clear, she may need some tussin..With my little man, Clarence, who was a bit larger, but not much...we had to keep him under a light, fed ever few hours to help keep internal temp up...it was touch and go...

here is an article on how to take care of a preemie...even though she was full term...she is so tiny and may struggle with some the these issues..not all..and some not at all..but hopefully it will help a little..lol

http://kinne.net/saveprem.htm


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## Trickyroo

:hug: Your doing the best you can :hug:
Are you able to get in contact with a vet at this time ? I would definitely get a vets opinion on what to do next , JMO.
The pepto dose i have is : use up to 2cc every four to six hours for newborns. Followed up with probios .


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## ThreeHavens

This isn't your fault, you are doing an amazing job. At this point I also have to say a vet is probably a good option. You're doing everything I could think of.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Do you have any blackberries growing where you live?


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## milkmaid

Little Bits, yes, oodles of them. What should I do with them?
I have a good vet, but he's super busy and often grouchy, lol. Also he isn't into goats (I think he likes cows best). For medical stuff I turn first to my paramedic brother. Between us we can usually work out what to do. We may yet have to give her IV fluids.
She is slowly getting stronger.
Oh, and happybleats, thanks for the link. Off to look at it now.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Dig up some of the root balls from the blackberries and wash them off with plain water to get the dirt off, throw them in a pot with enough water to cover them, and boil them on high until it's a strong red color. Turn it off, cool it down enough for her, and give that to her, just like feeding her the electrolytes or pedialyte, etc. 
It has a lot of natural diarrhea stopping properties and a ton of antioxidants in it. It was the only thing that stopped the scours when I had a very dehydrated calf that was scouring for a week. Had they not stopped, she would have probably been dead by the next morning. 
Worked just as good when I had a scouring kid, and adult goat that had the runs from too much grain.


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## Tenacross

You can give fluids SQ. If your vet will give you some lactated ringers, you can inject 15-20 ccs in a couple different locations under the skin. With your kid being so small, 30-60 ccs would go a long way. I have done this with newborns that were going down hill and it definitely gave them a jump. 

What kind of milk were you feeding this kid?


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## Trickyroo

I always wondered if you could do SQ fluids to goats. I never seen it mentioned here . That would be way easier IMO and safer . I wonder if you can give the fluids if their temp is down. I know you can warm the fluids up before giving using warm water bath. I know her temp is normal , but i was just wondering for future knowledge.


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## milkmaid

I was giving her fresh goat milk, but not from her mama. She did get colostrum.


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## milkmaid

I'm at a loss. She's doing a bit better - walking around - but still not springing back like I hoped.

1. Her diarrhea has slowed WAY down after the pepto and blackberry tea. It's still very thin, but not quite like it was, and nowhere near as frequent.

2. Yet she is still somewhat dehydrated (When pinched, skin retains some of fold). Not quite as much as she was last night, but still dehydrated.

3. Her belly is full of the fluids I've been giving her. WHY won't they travel from her belly into her body where they're needed?

4. She is not peeing, as far as I can tell. More evidence that not much of the fluid is getting into her body.

5. She seems to be feeling as good as can be expected. She shows some curiosity and energy. She can stand if I set her up, and even walk around. But she's not bright and active like a healthy kid (understandably).


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## Tenacross

milkmaid said:


> I was giving her fresh goat milk, but not from her mama. She did get colostrum.


OK. good.


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## nannysrus

Okay by not peeing doesn't mean her body is not absorbing fluids. If her organs got dehydrated her body will take the fluid to her organs and rehydrate them, and then onto other parts of her body. By her body using the fluids it will cause her to not urinate as much. 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## happybleats

I dont know why I didnt suggest cd antitoxin sooner..but I would be using it every 6 hours until she regulates...she wont have as much strength with out food..electros will keep her hydrated but she needs food...so as soon as she is firm enough...I would begin goats milk again...tiny amounts every hour ...once she does well onthat increase the amount and go 2 hours...

you have done amazing with her thus far...she is a fighter...no matter what...you both are doing great!!


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## Trickyroo

The CD antitoxin was suggested i believe , but it was Sunday and everything was closed…..i think. Also what about selenium ?

Instead of letting her nurse , would it be better for her to be tube fed ?


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## happybleats

Selenium wouldnt hurt with an drop or two of extra Vit. e gel froma gel cap
On the tubing...with her needing so little at a time and so often..I would be afraid to tube her every hour..thats alot of stress...as long as she is still nursing or at least swallowing from a sryinge I would stick to that...


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## OGYC_Laura

I opened a thread on here about my 36 hour 2 pound depressed little girl. In the thread I gave an update with the dosages for selenium and B complex as well as all other treatment I am doing for my little girl.

I am giving mine IV fluids. I bought a bag of lactated ringers from the vet, but I am sure your brother has some  I pinched up a bit of skin along her back just above her ribs and set the flow for 60cc an hour and just sit next to her and watch her breath..... I rapped the fluids in a heating pad so it goes in warm. Since yours is already dehydrated you may need to give more fluids than this. I was able to get an IV line with a regulator on it from my mom the nurse so I did not have to create a large fluid pocket... If you need to create a fluid pocket then go for under the front legs.


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## milkmaid

I'm bottlefeeding her...sort of. I'm syringing into a Pritchard nipple in her mouth. She swallows fine.
I haven't tried selenium - Mom has a selenium supplement; I need to find it.
I can call around about the CD antitoxin tomorrow morning.
Whew, you guys are awesome.
Oh - B complex - gotta write a list.


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## OGYC_Laura

If you are giving IV fluids then you could skip feeding for a few hours to give her tummy a chance to clear out.... there are some nice articles about weak kids on Onion Creek Ranch website.
Prayers your way!!


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## milkmaid

OK, nothing has come out her back end for an hour or so - no diarrhea, no pee. Does that mean she's over the diarrhea and I can start milk?
I am so anxious to get started on real food for her, but I realize doing it too early would just prolong the problem.
I am feeling very discouraged.


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## nannysrus

Well it's hard to make poop without any food. 

How long has it been sense she has had any milk?


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## Tenacross

Trickyroo said:


> I always wondered if you could do SQ fluids to goats. I never seen it mentioned here . That would be way easier IMO and safer . I wonder if you can give the fluids if their temp is down. I know you can warm the fluids up before giving using warm water bath. I know her temp is normal , but i was just wondering for future knowledge.


It's probably not as critical as putting milk in their belly, but I would still warm up the kid first.


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## Trickyroo

happybleats said:


> Selenium wouldnt hurt with an drop or two of extra Vit. e gel froma gel cap
> On the tubing...with her needing so little at a time and so often..I would be afraid to tube her every hour..thats alot of stress...as long as she is still nursing or at least swallowing from a sryinge I would stick to that...


Your right , i wasnt thinking about her getting fed so often and with the tiny amount. I was trying to figure out what would be better for her tummy 
Maybe she was taking in some air while nursing. Poor baby , I'm really pulling for her Milkmaid , your doing wonderful with her , just so you know :hug:


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## Trickyroo

Tenacross said:


> It's probably not as critical as putting milk in their belly, but I would still warm up the kid first.


Thanks Tenacross


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## milkmaid

> How long has it been sense she has had any milk?


About 24 hours...I think. How long do I wait before reintroducing milk?
Thanks so much for the encouragement, Laura.


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## nannysrus

I would think she needs milk. I know electros are important to keep her hydrated but she's not going to pass any bowel movements without food. 

I would try giving her the milk and making sure she is plenty warm when she eats and after she eats. I know you said you were keeping her on a heating pad. Just make sure her body temperature stays up so that her body can work to digest the milk.


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## happybleats

I agree with tricky...introduce small amounts of milk..nice and warm and be sure she is nice and warm so she can digest it...small amounts often...keep watch on her poop and belly...notice what it does..how she does...

were you able to get cd antitoxin? Is she sucking at all?..ALSO besure you have her head tilted up to close that little trap door to get the milk in the right chamber


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## milkmaid

She's doing great this morning!
Zero diarrhea all night long, thanks to Little Bits' blackberry root tea. She is peeing a lot, and feeling reasonably good. Her belly is no longer full of fluids. She's less dehydrated (though still is a little bit).
Since the scours stopped, I've been giving her Pedialyte and milk mixed half and half. Pretty soon I'll start working up to 100% milk.
I have yet to see her poop. Since it hasn't happened for a while, it's got to be much closer to normal when it does happen.
I'm having a bit of trouble keeping her temp even. She hates to be confined next to the warm water bottle, so her temp goes down; and then when I do warm her up, she starts panting. I've been aiming for 101*. She seems comfy at that temperature.
I tell you what she does love - sleeping on top of me. She did most of last night. So cute!  I figure it's good for her mental and emotional health, like a human baby.
Sometimes she decides to walk on top of me instead of sleep, which is not good for my mental health, lol!


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## happybleats

so glad she is showing promise!!! You are doing wonderful with her!!..


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## Tenacross

Yay! Does she have a good suck now?


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## kc8lsk

Thanks for keeping us posted it's nice to know that she is doing better


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## Trickyroo

That's wonderful milkmaid :wahoo::stars::leap: 
Im so happy , just reading your post made my day  
Your perseverance is what pulled her through and prayers 
Good for you ! Awww , she is enjoying your body heat and all the snuggles she is getting , she sure knows when she has it good , lol.
More pictures !


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## Goats Rock

Glad she is doing better! Sleeping with a goat! :sleeping:


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## milkmaid

Tenacross, yes, she has a good suck now. 
I'll try to get some more pictures while she's up today.
Thanks everyone for your help and, most of all, the prayers! She's still not 100%, but I think we're through the worst of it.


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## ThreeHavens

Great news! I will say that GI Soother (it has medicinal cayenne) REALLY helped Xena maintain a normal temperature.


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## Tenacross

milkmaid said:


> Tenacross, yes, she has a good suck now.
> .


I think that is very good. I would try to keep her a little on the hungry side, if you know what I mean.


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## Goats Rock

Where is the best place to get he GI Soother?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Yay! :clap: I'm so glad the tea helped! Sorry I was gone yesterday afternoon/evening, I would have gotten back to you sooner, sorry!
But I'm so glad the diarrhea stopped!  Since she's so small, she may not digest as fast as larger kids? So keep her a tad on the hungry side, when her sucking slows down, take the bottle away, before she stops on her own.


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## milkmaid

OK, here's a link to the Picasa album with some pictures of her. I included a couple pics of her next to a standard sized "beanie baby" type toy for size comparison. She's not much bigger!
https://picasaweb.google.com/117715058357627348492/2014Kids?authkey=Gv1sRgCI2kw_LkwJjfGw#


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## nannysrus

Omg!!! How adorable!!! 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## Trickyroo

Oh how adorable ! Your right , she isn't much bigger then the beanie baby , lol ! She is just precious :hugs:

Here's the link for the GI Soother 

www.store.firmeadowllc.com


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## ariella42

She's ADORABLE and so tiny! I'm glad she's doing better


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## ThreeHavens

Oh, baby girl! She reminds me so much of Xena. And Xena's doing great now, I didn't think she's make it! I hope your girl makes it too. :hug: She's getting the best care.


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## Greybird

I think I almost died of cute overload a moment ago. Awwwwww ... so precious! She just HAS to make it. I'm rooting for her!

Can you take a picture of her with your hand? 
The Beanie Baby shot helped to put it all in perspective but somehow I think that a photo of her snuggled up with your hand would be an awesome way to remember how teeny she was when she started.


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## happybleats

AWE...to cute!!!! and a fighter to boot, her sublings look like giants next to her!! lol...Keep up the good work..


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## milkmaid

OK, she pooped a couple times and it was formed, but soft. Now she's refusing the bottle again and her tummy is making a lot of noise. I guess that means I need to give her more time off milk?


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## ThreeHavens

Have you been able to get your hands on or order the CD anti-toxin?


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## milkmaid

No, she's doing so much better during day hours that I think I don't need it! Then I need it as soon as I can't get it anymore.
I'll call the vet and the local feed stores tomorrow and find some (whether she is better or not).
I think you said something about activated charcoal?
ETA - she is showing no signs of entero, just milk scours as far as I can tell.


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## happybleats

You can use Activated Charcoal as well...but I highly recommend the CD antitoxin..

how much milk is she getting and how often?


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## milkmaid

I was giving her a tsp every hour. Then I slowly increased to 2 tsp because she was frantic for more and I thought she should have a little more. After that, she didn't want milk anymore.


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## nannysrus

Sounds like the milk is just not agreeing with her body. 

Is it possible she's not developed enough for her body to break it down? If that's possible. 

It sounds like me trying to drink cows milk. :-/ my stomach and guts just feel like they are curtling it and cant digest it. 

It's miserable because it feels like it stays in your stomach forever because you can't digest it.

Kind of seems like she is doing the same thing. 




Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## happybleats

Ok..I would stop milk tonight..and see how she feels tomorrow..start again at 1 teaspoon where she seemed to do ok with..offer electros between milk...waiting a bit between...let her fully digest the milk first...undiluted


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## HawksErieFarm

She is so tiny and cute hope she is doing better!! 


Kimberly 
Home to 5 Nigerians, 20 rabbits, cows, dogs, cats, and fish.


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## Trickyroo

Aww ,poor baby  I agree , when you start her again , just go REAL slow and don't increase it just yet , stop giving her the milk before she stops wanting it  She doesn't know whats good for her yet , lol.


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## Goats Rock

You could order from Jeffers, I believe they are in Alabama. They do have the Clostridium D&D Anti toxin. 
Sending good thoughts your way for you and that sweet baby!


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## goathiker

Yes, don't ever mix milk and electros. It causes stomach problems. There should always be an hour at least between the 2.


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## milkmaid

OOOOOOHHHHH! Maybe that was the problem?
She's hanging in there. She's hungry again. I gave her a little bit of milk.
Her mom and brother had some issues that are evidence of vitamin A deficiency - issues I've never seen in my goats before (difficulty expelling placenta & uterine infection; pinkeye). I don't know how that could be since mama's diet was almost exclusively green feed during pregnancy. Anyway, I fixed those problems with vitamin C orally and cod liver oil in the eye, respectively. Both got oral cod liver oil, and Cosette got a teeny weeny bit of cod liver oil too.

ETA - I just realized - Recently the neighbors put up a street light by their barn. It's pretty bright and a couple hundred feet from where my goats sleep. I wonder if that caused the vitamin A problem.


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## milkmaid

Goats Rock, is this what I should order?
http://www.jefferspet.com/products/cl-perfringens-c-d-antitoxin
And do I need to have it shipped quickly? Does it need an ice pack? Any other advice?

Edit - I called everywhere I could think of and couldn't lay hands on it. I'll have to order, but I'd like to know the answers to the above questions first.


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## milkmaid

OK, I'm ordering the antitoxin. I'd like dosage advice on activated charcoal in the meantime, please.
She's doing just okay this morning. She's hungry, has good suck; but just doesn't have quite as much energy. Also her tummy is still making a lot of noise.
She pooped only once last night, and hasn't pooped yet today. First it was diarrhea, now I'm afraid it's the opposite problem.


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## ThreeHavens

There is no exact dosage for activated charcoal, I just give a dollup for little ones.

If you feel she is stopped up, an enema should be okay. I've given it to a stopped up sick baby before.


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## Goats Rock

I'm sorry, I didn't see your questions. Yes, that is the correct stuff. An ice pack won't hurt.
Just put it in the fridge when you get it. Most of the time the anti-toxin needs ordered- most
farm stores don't carry it. (In our area). 

For some reason, it has been in scarce supply until recently. It is good to have on hand. 
I hope all is well with you and the baby!


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## happybleats

I agree with the enema...if she cant poop she can get sick..did you already dose selenium vit e gel or BoSe? I would add a tiny drop or two of extra vit e...


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## milkmaid

Update! I think we've turned a corner. She is stable and feeling better, more energy, stronger, more vocal. Just a few minutes ago I finally did the enema and she pooped a lot.
I have been mixing yogurt into her milk today. She slurps it right down.
She can now get into a standing position on her own, but is still quite shaky when she walks. She's doing great, but I can tell she's still not feeling 100%. Does she just need time, or is there something else I can do?
The antitoxin *should* arrive tomorrow (and they do ship with an ice pack). Should I still use it, and how do I dose it? How long will it keep in the fridge?
Oh, Happybleats - I gave vit E, but I haven't had time to dig up the selenium. I'll try to do that.
She is SOOOOOOO cute and dainty! Like a goat fairy! Is there such a thing? LOL. Maybe she's a goat changeling.


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## happybleats

Yahooo glad she is doing better...I would bet with her being so tiny her digestive system will need time to develope and strengthen...keep what you are doing NOW until you know she is ready for an increase of milk..always increase in tiny amounts...stop all milk if she stops pooping or goes to water and start again...I would give the cd antitoxin each time she has an issue...not pooping or pooping water...refuses bottle ect...any doubt...give it! it wont hurt...1/2 cc should be plenty...she will pee out what she does not need...

I like Goat Fairy lol....


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## Trickyroo

Yay for baby  And yay for you , your pulling her through 
I would just give her the milk without anything. Cause if it happens again you will be questioning wether it is the milk or the yogurt. 
JMO.


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## Goats Rock

The anti-toxin keeps a long time in the fridge- just use a sterile needle when you 
take any out. (Mine expires in 2016). Glad the baby is doing better!


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## milkmaid

> I would just give her the milk without anything. Cause if it happens again you will be questioning wether it is the milk or the yogurt.


True - and I was a little reluctant at first - but I also know re-balancing the gut bacteria is extremely important, may even be vital to _prevent_ it from happening again.


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## happybleats

I think the yogurt is fine...as long as she continues to do well...if not then go back to just milk and see how that does...with this tiny tot it will be trial and error...but you have been so quick to catch it when she is off and turn her back around..it is all about protecting her until her body gets strong....and you are doing well..


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## milkmaid

Thanks everyone! Another update - she's doing even better this morning - more energy, more curiosity, better balance, walking around, exploring. There are three issues I'm wondering about. First, her tummy is _still_ making a lot of noise. Second, her back is a little hunched. Third, she often trembles - shivers almost as if she's cold, but I'm pretty sure it's not that she's cold.
She does seem to feel quite chipper though.


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## happybleats

Go ahead and give the CD antitoxin when you get it...she maybe struggling to digest fully enough to feel 100%

Im so glad she is doing well!!


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## Tenacross

She is fragile at this point. She is still having some trouble controlling her temperature, but that will go away eventually. Every day she makes it in a healthy way she is getting closer to normal. If she doesn't have diarrhea and has a strong suck, I wouldn't give her anything except goats milk. Over feeding is the biggest danger for her it seems. She might get skinny on you and you won't like it, but if she has energy and keep progressing, there will be plenty of time to put weight on later. JMO.


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## ThreeHavens

I agree with the CD anti-toxin. She's just too little and fragile to be completely digesting right now and may need a bit of help for a few days until she's 100% normal. I also agree that you may have to keep her a bit on the skinny side. I had to do this with one of my kids, and I felt so guilty, but once he was older and was able to handle more he grew up big and strong and is as normal as anyone now.


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## milkmaid

OK, it's arrived. Someone recommended 1/2 cc. Do I have to inject or can I give orally?


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## Trickyroo

Is this the CD antitoxin ? If so , inject sub-Q .


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## ThreeHavens

CD anti-toxin is injected sub-Q. I'm still praying for this little angel, and for you!


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## milkmaid

Yes, CD antitoxin. Thanks!


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## Cactus_Acres

You mentioned warming her with a warm water bottle. Have you thought about barely heating an old sock full of rice in the microwave instead? If heated to the appropriate temp, she may be more likely to snuggle up to it instead of a bottle. Sounds like a feisty little girl there.


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## Trickyroo

Thats a good idea ^^ it will hold the heat longer too 
She can snuggle in between them if you do two . I have one i use for my neck , it molds very well


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## milkmaid

I didn't think of that!
It seems she's about ready to graduate from the water bottles though. She is maintaining her body temperature much better now.

OK, the CD antitoxin bottle says to use the entire contents when first opened. But some of you are saying it keeps a long time. Are you sure?


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## cheyenne

Sounds like you're doing great with her! I like the name Fairy too! Please keep us updated with pictures too! Such a tiny little thing...


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## Trickyroo

I have kept it for future use. I would like to hear what Jill says about that  I like to order small bottles and use them up that way. I ordered the bigger bottle last time when there was a shortage of it .
I think that was a ploy for places to get rid of old stock :/


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## ThreeHavens

Do you need a little coat for her? I have Xena's baby coat and I would gladly donate it. You can adjust the turtleneck so it fit Xena for a good while as she needed it.


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## milkmaid

Aww, that is sweet of you, Danielle! She sleeps under a towel, and even when she's out for a while her temp is pretty even, so I think we can manage. But thank you very much!


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## DancingHoovesFarm

I'm praying for you and your tiny girl! I hope she makes it! 

Btw she is a Pygmy right? I can't tell from the pics.


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## Greybird

You have your very own little Tinkerbelle Caprine! 
I have been watching this thread so closely - YAY for her putting up such a good fight! I'm still cheering her on.


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## milkmaid

Thanks for the cheering and the prayers!
Dancing Hooves, she is Nigerian Dwarf.


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## DancingHoovesFarm

Oh ok cool! Well if she makes it and you can part with her  just send her down here!! Lol. she is super cute, I know I could never part with her after all that.


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## ksalvagno

Yes you just keep the anti toxin until the expiration date. It is not a one time thing.


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## goathiker

I do keep vaccines and anti-toxins even though they say to use them all at once. I just make sure that I always use a clean new needle in the bottle and I put a little piece of Saran Wrap secured over the top and around the bottle with a little rubber band to cover the needle hole.


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## milkmaid

^Oh, that's a good idea. Keeps dust and germs from contaminating the hole I guess.


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## happybleats

I agree... I buy the big bottle and keep on hand ..: ) SOunds ike bay is getting stronger..You are doing a great job!!


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## milkmaid

She is still not pooping on her own.
Last night I gave her another enema. She pooped a lot, but this time the enema was very stressful for her and afterward she was shaking big time. I don't want to do that again if I can help it.
She is pretty lively this morning, but her back is still hunched.
Why is she not pooping on her own????


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## ThreeHavens

She may not be strong enough to at this point ... ): I wouldn't want to stress her either, but it's bad for her to get filled up with poop.


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## milkmaid

So how often should I do it?
It might be easier on her if I do it every 12 hours instead of every 24, for instance...


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## ThreeHavens

I think that'd be better.  We do want to get her to the point where she can poop on her own, but right now the balance is so delicate I'd say first priority is getting her feeling well and stable, then we'll worry about helping her pass her own poop.


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## happybleats

She's at a rock and hard place..too much milk makes her ill but not enough could be making her constipaded...not enough food to poop...keep with the cd antitoxin..for a gentle enema I prefer oil and water...the oil lines the intestins and keeps things moving...also if you use soap and water, put a little vasaline or some of the like...to preven irritation to her bum...


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## nannysrus

I use a tiny bit of kayro syrup to help my bottle babies poop. I have never used it for a goat but I have for foals, calves, cats, dogs, and rabbits. 




Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## milkmaid

I've been using soap and warm water, but I like the oil and water idea much better. Will olive oil work?
Last night (after she had gone 24 hours without pooping) her poop did look a bit compacted. This morning (12 hours without pooping) it was softer than normal baby poop: no half-formed pellets, just mush. Does that indicate how often I need to do it?


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## happybleats

Olive oil works great..I do about 1 teaspoon-ish to a 1/2 cup warm water..stir before each draw. I think I would do another in 12 hours if she has not pooped ...


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## milkmaid

Is there any way I can get more milk into her without upsetting her tummy, like feeding her smaller amounts more often? I'm willing to feed as often as necessary. Whatever it takes to make her healthy.


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## CritterCarnival

Glad to hear she is hanging on and even progressing a little...everyday that passes will let her body mature just that much more. Soon she'll be healthy and happy and getting into everything little goaties get into!!

I think you should stick with the Fairy theme for her name, there are lots of synonyms: Sprite, Pixie, Elf, Imp, Brownie...


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## happybleats

You can always try to feed a little bit more...increase real slow...she needs enough time between to digest....if she seems to get sluggish..back of...trust your gut..you have done great thus far :wink:


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## nannysrus

I wonder if simethicone would help her tummy upset any. 


Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## Trickyroo

You know those Pearls they sell in the drug stores ? You take them to bring back the natural flora in our tummies…..well , i know you can give her yogurt for that , but given the fact how unstable her tummy is…..i was thinking maybe you could give her one of those. Its so tiny you could get it down her I'm sure. They are daily probiotics for humans but I'm thinking it would be good for her and less upsetting for her belly. Just a thought.


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## milkmaid

Thanks for the ideas, Samantha and Laura!
I did go back to just plain milk. I don't know if that made a difference, but when I started to increase amount as Happybleats suggested, that made a difference! She started gaining energy and is doing MUCH better. Hardly any shaking or wobbling. She's almost up to 1 1/2 tsp hourly. I'm going up VERY slowly. She's getting hungrier exponentially, LOL! But I still have to give the enema. The 12-hour intervals seem much better than 24.
She's getting stronger and stronger. She was feeling so good that my sister and I payed dress-up with her for a few minutes, haha!


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## mayia97420

I read this every time I come online-always hoping that she is continuing to get better - sending all kinds of positive energy to you and her.


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## Trickyroo

This is what i was talking about 
http://www.pearlsprobiotics.com/
Just thought maybe it wouldn't be upsetting to her tummy 

So glad to hear she is improving milkmaid , that is such great news !
Im so happy for you  Just the thought of having to give the enema to her must be so tough for you though. Thats why i thought about the Pearls. It brings back regularity and the normal flora. I hope with her being stronger now she will be able to poop on her own.
Baby steps are just fine , I'll keep the prayers coming for you both


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## milkmaid

Well, I think I let her get too much milk last night and she is weak again.   This is SO frustrating. I gave the antitoxin and activated charcoal and have her on electrolytes again...
She is acting very hungry; when can I let her have milk?


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## happybleats

UGH..I know its hard..but you are doing great!!! give 12 -24 hours milk break when this happens...go with your VERY GOOD GUT as to how soon...she snot ready if you see hunched back.weak, tail tucked..grinding of teeth, lethargic ect...Temp should be 100+


once she is back on milk and you feel she seems so hungry between meals, offer a bottle of electrolytes..


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## milkmaid

Cathy, you are so helpful and encouraging! :hug:


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## mayia97420

It is soooo frustrating when you want them to eat good but good for them is such a little amount. Hang in there and trust yourself - electrolytes should be fed between milk bottles - it will make her feel fuller but not stress her tummy as much- Remember it takes weeks to starve but only hours/days to die from lack of fluid.


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## milkmaid

She's doing a bit better now. She can stand and walk again, shakily.
Cathy, what happens if after 24 hours of no milk, she's still not ready? Just keep up the electrolytes? How long can she go on electrolytes?


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## happybleats

I read once you can go up to 36 hours...but with her being so tiny I would be afraid to go that long...if she is well other then shaky...I would give milk again after 12 hours...very slow...she maybe shaky do to being hungry...This is such a up and down situation...trust yourself....you are doing great...I know its scary..there is no wrong here...its just letting her body tell you what she can do...you can also give a bit of honey on her her tongue for energy...keep up the cd antitoxin for now as well...


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## ThreeHavens

Still praying for little girl. Cathy's giving excellent advice.


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## Trickyroo

Prayers still coming milkmaid , your doing great , trust yourself :hug::hug:


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## milkmaid

Thanks for all the prayers but she didn't make it.  I forgot to keep tabs on her temperature. She got too cold and developed FKS, and even though I warmed her up and gave antitoxin and activated charcoal, I couldn't save her.
There are so many levels at which I could have prevented this. I shouldn't have let her get too much milk. I should have remembered to take her temperature. I should have warmed her up faster when I did find out she was cold. Maybe even, if I had fed her mother more during pregnancy, she wouldn't have been born small...who knows?
It just kills me when animals suffer and die from MY mistakes. :tears: I want her back. She was SOOOOOO cute. The picture of her in the dress really captures her personality.
I wish I had a better picture of her in the diaper and bib. She looked SO FUNNY we were cracking up! And my dog, Amanda, claimed all the goat kids this year. She was attached to her too.


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## happybleats

I am so sorry!!!!! YOu did fantasitc with her!!! It is NOT your fault...she was a risk...one we all would have taken!...you can not predict how she would do...she was fragil....and you loved her, her whole life and cared for her.....you gave her a chance...and that is all anyone could have done!!

((HUGS))....:hug:


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## ariella42

I'm so sorry :hug: She was so adorable, but Cathy is right, you did a great job and it wasn't your fault at all. You really went above and beyond what many would have done for her, but there's no way to know what was really going on in her tiny little body. There's a chance that she her organs were so underdeveloped she might not have made it anyway, but you gave her a fighting chance and a life of love, which is all anyone could want.


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## ThreeHavens

Milkmaid, honey, I'm being 100% honest when I say I don't think there's a single thing more you could have done to prevent this. Kids sometimes are going to make it ... or not. What counts is we do our best within our power and knowledge to give them a good life while they're here ... and you did that above and beyond! There was so much to keep tabs on ... too much milk? Too little? And so many variables. I have to think her little body was just not ready. No matter how you care for your does (which you do an excellent job of) there are going to be kid losses. I know, it's the hardest thing in the world. 

:hug: Please don't berate yourself anymore, that's the last thing you need and the last thing she'd want you to do. :hug: You were amazing.


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## Tenacross

No no no. You gave it a heck of a try. There's a window there where they either march on to normalness, or go down hill. You gave her every opportunity. She was lucky to have you. Hugs to you. I've been there.


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## mayia97420

Don't beat yourself up. Her tiny body was just not able to adjust to life outside her womb. she was loved and cared for even if her life was short. She will come dancing across the field to you at the rainbow bridge.


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## Trickyroo

milkmaid , you went above and beyond to help her pull through , don't be so hard on yourself honey , you did a amazing job with her :hug::hug::hug:
She's probably running around up there with the rest of the little angels that were called too soon . Be good to yourself , take yourself out for a day or a hour , and buy yourself something , you deserve it :grouphug:


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## Goats Rock

I am so sorry for you that she didn't make it. Like everyone has said, you did all you could and more than 
a lot of people could have done. She was a loved little goat and in my humble opinion, you should 
be nominated as "Human Goat Mom of the Year!" (If it helps, I am shedding tears for you and her).


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## cheyenne

I'm so sorry you lost her... but you did your best and that's all anyone could ever ask. :hug::hug: Don't beat yourself up, ok? She probably just wasn't strong enough or developed enough.


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## milkmaid

Thank all. :grouphug: I'm just broken in two. I am SOOOO thankful I had her for those nine days. I wouldn't trade that time for anything. She was such a darling, so precious, and trusted me so completely! :tears: All goat kids are cute, but there was something especially cute about her.


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## ThreeHavens

Those little ones are so special. :hug: :hug: I'm so heartbroken for you.


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