# Ideas???



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

the year of Stump Cathy!!

Emmy is a yearling Saanen doe...she began to walk on her front knees a month ago....we have trimmed her hooves, checked for rot and stickers...nothing..had her retested for CAE..no swelling, no heat, no tenderness...she can walk just fine once up..runs to the table...ect...eating, drinking, pooping and peeing just fine...she acts like its just a bad habit..but she lays around way more then usual...so I know something has got to be up...what we tried so far

trimming
checked for rit
checked for stickers
looked for warmth and tenderness
BoSe
Antibiotics in case of infection
Banamine for pain??
retested for CAE..still negative..

now it maybe my eyes..but seems to me..she walks a bit hunched..and favors the front left foot.kind of stomps it down rather then just step...?? I tried to get a video of it..but then she jumps on the tire and plays a bit UGH...shes has me stumped...

any ideas..


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Maybe injury in the neck or spinal area possibly.

I had a buck who was roughed up by my older buck and I think he was hit in the neck area, it was uncomfortable for him to eat standing up and bending down so far, so he went to his knee's to eat. He looked OK otherwise, but it was unusual for him to all of a sudden start doing that. He was only 6 months old. 
I put a bucket up on the fence for his grain, so he didn't have to bend his head that far down, to find he had a twitching going on in the lower neck area, I massaged the area and with a little time, he now eats normally and no twitching. Things returned to normal.

May be something like that with Emmy.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks for that..i will check her..she jumps on the stands to be fed with no problem..but on the tabke food it high..so...??..i give. A closer look. Ive been focused on her legs and feet


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Maybe some B Complex to help nerves.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ill start that today


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Your welcome, good luck.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Man Cathy ! Why do you end up with all the freaky things ? So sorry 

One thought , i know its a expensive one , but X-rays to see if there is any sign of founder or something else similar....
Another thought....maybe its in her shoulder area or back area ? 
Just throwing things out there for ya


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I know Laura...this is my year of the weird!! ..Her hooves look fine...My daughter trimmed her last month for me and she did a bad job lol...I thought maybe that was her problem..but I have since corrected the issue..(one side of her hoof (toe) was taller then the other)..not a hard thing to fix but took a few trimmings to fix it...she acts perfectly fine...just walks on her knees..I was hoping it was an easy fix with bose lol..bummer...and x ray maybe whats needed if we cant correct it..


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Re read the posts and I didn't think about a neck injury of sorts. 
Do a pressure sensitivity test with your fingers like you would check a horse for saddle soreness but start at the base of her skull. 
I know it sounds weird I just can't explain it , lol. 
She could've also been rammed or rammed someone hard. 
Try a range of motion with her head. Can she turn it from side to side without noticeable discomfort ? I can't stop thinking about this poor 
girl


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## dian_na (Jan 31, 2015)

I as you know I have had my share of weird. In all that I've experienced this year alone I've read many many things only to be confused (Cattle may not be cuter but they are easier) I'm trying to find this site that talks exactly this. But I haven't found it however by memory ... You said you see something when she walks, and she still stands and acts fine on occasion, I read something about "Bruised Sole" most often in front. Check for any redness beneath or black spot, You may have alreay checked when trimming, but I recall you may not even see it. Also stop grain for a bit and feed only hay and see maybe she does have a mild case of Laminitis. I recall reading its common in well managed herds because all goats are diffrent and she might be one who doesn't require the protein everyday or not as much.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Yep , ^^i was thinking along the lines of a stone bruise or maybe a deep abscess that hasnt surfaced yet.
I know you said you trimmed and checked her hooves , but its always a possibility she hasn't shown sensitivity to it cause there was no weight on it when you had her foot up. Im sure you did this too , but have you checked her heel for a thorn or something ?
Just throwing the things that come to mind at ya ....I hope we can help find out whats wrong with Emmy and get her better soon 

Have you watched how she carries herself , like when she jumps up on the tires ? How does she hold her head , maybe at a weird angle ?
Is she walking more on her heels or her toes ? No mud sores or cracked skin.... I know you gave antibiotics , so if it were you would think it would heal up already.... 

Get us a video Cathy .....


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks ladies..all good advice to look for. I will give another good going over. .i may have missed something looking for the obvious lol.ill keep you posted and try to get a video


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I've seen young goats do this for 2 reasons that are nothing to worry about. 
1. They've had a weird growth spurt and their necks are temporarily too short to reach down comfortably. 
2. They are middle or lower in the herd and they've discovered that by kneeling down the other goats can't push them out of the food as easily.
They usually outgrow both of these things.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

well I took a better look...felt her knees again..her ankles...checked her hooves...nothing...then felt on her spine..pinching along and then I pinched just in front of her shoulder...she freaked!...now it was close where she got her shot...so i'm not sure of her reaction but Im going to get an appointment for my vet to look at her..I just cant keep guessing...she lays around more then normal and thats not good for her digestion...I cant breed her like this and I cant sell her..and I cant leave her like this...so I got to fix her


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Your right , there really is just so much we can do for our guys. 
And very lucky you have a vet who knows goats and you trust. 
I will keep Emmy in my prayers , keep us posted !


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Glad you have pin pointed the area, hope you get a good reasoning as to why she is hurting there, whether it be an injury or from the shot. Prayers sent, hope she will be OK soon.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Any news ?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok..she has an appointment monday afternoon...i took a video of how she walks...and a pic if her at the mineral feeder...lol..shes such a brat. On all fours...pushing her way to the minerals like nothing..but as you will see in the video if i can load it...you can tell she wants in her feet but quickly goes back to her knees. I must be missing something but it still seems to be the hoof area?Maybe i dont see whats there...any way...we shall see what our vet says.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Hopefully the vet can find answers.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I hope so. I will have to get the video uo this evening....


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Don't tell her she's going to the vet on Monday cause you just know she will be bouncing around like nothing's wrong 
Tell her your taking her to Friendlies or Sonic instead , lol.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Lol..will do tricky!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Heres the pic of her standing on all fours for minerals.....im trying to upload the video.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

UGH...it keeps telling me its an invalid video!!...Ill keep trying


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Something looks off with the tendons on that front leg. Maybe try stretching her foot and leg straight out in front of her and see of one the tendons is too short?

Next suggestion is too see if something is up with the hind feet and she's trying to take all her weight on the front. She just stands awkwardly...


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I thought she was standing with her front legs more out in front of her......


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

she does seem hunched..like putting full pressure is painful


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

happybleats said:


> she does seem hunched..like putting full pressure is painful


Yes , she does. Wondering if she got it caught somewhere or stepped the wrong way. Im surprised some of my guys haven't done that with the way they jump around and play ...I wince watching them sometimes . :GAAH:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yes..we have lots of trees they love to be in...when the little kids get so high I hold my breath...never had an injury..knock on wood!!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

There is nothing worse then seeing one in pain /uncomfortable and not know why and not be able to help 
Fingers crossed your vet can diagnose what the problem is and advice on how to help her recover.
I don't want to jinx anything here.....but at least she is eating and drinking and acting fine otherwise. 
Do you give grain to her Cathy ? I was wondering since you said she lays down more then what would be normal for her and your worried about her digestion.....if you do give grain , would it be a good idea to cut it out so her system has less to digest ? Maybe thinking too far ahead , but it sounded like a good idea in my head , lol..


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

she does get a little feed...but has to come up to the table to eat...so far digestion is good


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

happybleats said:


> yes..we have lots of trees they love to be in...when the little kids get so high I hold my breath...never had an injury..knock on wood!!


I have a huge spool in the big pen and the goats love it. I remember when one of my Nigerians had her babies , they weren't very old , maybe two months.
One of them got ontop of the spool and was dancing around on it. I looked up from raking one of the other pens to see her take a beautiful elegant flying leap off of it. I just about fell over :faint: 
There was no way i could get there in time to grab her , so all i got out of my mouth was "Noooooo" :GAAH: She was fine and mighty proud of herself as she pranced around her mother and siblings , lol..
They love that spool. Unfortunately the weather has taken its toll and there is a big hole in the top of it , unfixable . Ive taken all the smaller spools away from it so they can't get on it anymore till it can be chopped up and moved. At first , they all stood around it looking up at it , wondering why they can't get up there anymore. It was the "best spot" to be apparently...they really seemed to miss being up there , i felt so bad


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Most of the time a wonky trim doesnt do much damage if correct soon enough. But it is a possibility that is caused an issue.

A few years ago one of my mares developed an abscess in a front hoof. Because of the way she walked not bearing weight on it for a few days caused a muscle in her shoulder to tighten up. She was literally lame for about 4 days before she was waking on it again. However, even though it's been 3 years the muscle in her shoulder has never returned to normal. It requires extra stretching and warming up before riding. 

It very well may be that her hoof was uneven and she stretched or stained something in her shoulder. Damage is done much quicker than it can heal. So even if she was with a uneven trim for few days it could effect her for weeks.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Laura??? Turn the spool over???


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I sure hope its an easy fix like that nannnysrus...her one pad was taller then its partner. By quite a bit so i know that had to feel awkward to walk on..
On the video i cant upload she puts her hoof like shes ging to step up on it..then its like she remembers and settles on the knee again...so i know she wants up. Im going to go out and do some stretches with her.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Sold one of our bucks today and the gal who bought him suggested that a bruised pad takes along time to heal. We dont see a bruise but maybe deep from her poor hoof trim?..


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Look around the cornet band too. Jeter got one that was just a little purple mark at the top of his hoof. but, he was three legged from it.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I had a yearling Mancha act like. Come to find out, she had a severe copper defeciency that has caused her joints to twist. I had bolused her at 6 months of age with the other 4, but it didn't seem to work. I know it went down her throat and the bolus worked on the others. Her mother had to be double bolused also, to keep a defeciency from starting, so I guess with her it's metabolic.

Could your girl have a copper thing going on? Just a thought.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Could your girl have a copper thing going on? Just a thought.


She looks good other wise...no other signs of copper def. ..but I will talk to the vet about it


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Waiting our turn at the vet
...


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Good luck ! 
Poor Emmy , hope you find out what it is and something that can
help/cure it...keep us posted !


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Vet thinks her pads are bruised..def. her feet hurt..the trimming she got didn't leave much wall to support her and the pad is taking the brunt if the work. We are making her a padded boot for each front foot as i begin to trim down her pad and allow her wall to build up. He hopes the padded boot will get her on her feet with out having to keep her on pain meds... .


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thankfully its nothing serious. hopefully the boots work..time will tell. And i will give some reminder lessons on hoof trimming to my daughter. She also did another doe that thankfully i was able to correct.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm so glad its treatable and nothing too serious. 
Thank goodness


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Well she is already trying to get them off lol..i used cotton pads and made a rim on them with a few other pads. .and used vet wrap to hokd it together and on her hoof. Looked good for 5 whole minutes!!..guess we will figure out another way..


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Soak her feet in salt water, it will pull the bruising out and toughen the sole. This is an old dog mushers trick :lol:


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

How is Emmy doing Cathy ?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Shes about the same..kicked one boot off today lol...but still in good shape i can vet wrap it back on....im going to work on her pads today some and soak her feet


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Duck Tape :-D


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

nannysrus said:


> Duck Tape :-D


Or that Gorilla Tape , lol.....But duck tape comes in cool colors and patterns 

Hope the boots help her . Once you get her to leave them on .....


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good news I hope...I trimmed more off emmys hooves, she didnt like it but I cut as far as I could with out her bleeding..today I went out and lifted her to her feet and she followed me around for several minutes with out getting on her knees..then I walked away and called all the goats to me and she got up on her own and hobbled over..so she is staying up longer : ) I think we are making progress!! I didn't get to go out and soak her feet yet, I barely had time to trim them again..but I still plan on doing that IF life would just slow down a bit. but for now..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is good.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Emmy is doing better but still not on her feet as she should be, but did run and jump playfully the other morning...when she is on them she still stands like it hurts...I have been trimming and trying to get past any bruising...last night I was reading and trying to find answers and found an article on white line abscess....Looking at the picture they had there it seems might fit the issue at hand...looking close at emmys hooves there is a slight raised bump area between the "toes" on each inner wall of the hoof..so Im going to work on those by soaking in an epsom salt bath with a few EO's...then when soft I will work on the areas see if I can find an abscess...not sure if she always had those lumps or not lol..but when I trim I see blood red spots like in the article, but nothing gross or smelly??? This has gone on way too long!! She is well other wise..but I will not breed her this season if she is not on her feet 100% normal!...She is sold pending this healing...if not.. will keep her and decide later if I still want to sell her. UGH


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Wow...you and Emmy have really been thru it! Would you be able to post a link to that article on white line abscesses? Thanks! Good luck to you and Emmy!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

here is that link....Yes...Im ready for some normal!!!!

http://www.nadis.org.uk/bulletins/l...ne-lesions-causes,-treatment-and-control.aspx


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Cathy , my Nubian buck had a similar issue . I treated it as hoof rot , not too much improvement. Trimmed every other week or so , he bled even when there looked like there was plenty to come off without getting close to the quick. I tried about everything from soaking to pain killers with him. Then i decided to just leave it alone , clean it when needed , kept a eye on it . Well , after a few months , he was totally fine. I was able to trim his hooves like always and he never bled , never came up lame , nothing. Still never knew what it was , all i can say is it took a long time from the first signs of it to the few months i left it alone without any treatments. Just thought i would share this , i totally forgot about it. 

At least she is attempting to jump and play instead of standing alone in a corner. Something tells me her issue is going to take some time. 
I will be keeping Emmy in my thoughts


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks Laura...my vet did say a bruised pad will take months to heal...: ( ..but sounds like Im doing what you did with the same results lol...I haven't gone out to check for an abscess...lots going on right now beyond the normal scope of things....but I hope today I can get out and take a look. she is at least in good spirits..getting up faster on her own...so we do see improvements : )


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

happybleats said:


> here is that link....Yes...Im ready for some normal!!!!
> 
> http://www.nadis.org.uk/bulletins/l...ne-lesions-causes,-treatment-and-control.aspx


Thank you, Cathy! I have a doe that struggles with her feet, so all these comments -- and this article -- are very helpful! Hoping Emmy is on the mend...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im seeing her on her her feet more and more...and less hunched...so I assume they hurt less : )...heres to hoping for a full recovery!! AND SOON!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Have you thought about giving her some Holy Basil and Licorice Root for the inflammation? A couple drops of peppermint oil on the back of her knees to help pull the blood out of the feet? Just thoughts...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

No....i woukdnt even know what Holy basil and licorice root was lol. .Peppermint i can do ..
I did try banamine for a few days and it didnt make a difference. ..a more natural approach might be better...thx


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Emmy is improving daily...seeing her more and more on her feet. She came into heat today, poor girl. I wont breed her this time around...hopefully she will be 100% next month!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Yay for Emmy :stars: Glad to hear it


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good to hear.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Glad to hear she is improving


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

ok..so I took a few pix....the wet ones are from 2 weeks ago, I was soaking her feet but I wanted to show the red blotches on the side wall, she also has the weight off it a bit.....I have never had to repair a hoof before and seems like my regular trimming style is not working...I need tips on how to correct this...I feel like she needs more toe....well I brought her up today and was shocked at how much growth there was already and how she stood rocked back on the heal now...GRRRR so I took off some heal and got her more up right...( pic in dirt) I should have take the picture on the table but was an after thought. Now here is what I see...the hoof to me is too tall...from band to ground, you cant take too much off or she bleeds..so I been trying to take some off every few days..but got behind due to things going on here.....I know I am doing something wrong but cant figure out what. She is on her feet more and more..but I want to get her 100%..
SO.... Be gentle...but what Am I doing wrong to correct these hooves 

ALSO has any one heard of internal hoof rot?? I have been reading a lot to try to figure this girl out and found a blog on this...lady states her goat went off her front feet and although there was no outer signs of rot...the hoof felt squishy and warm so she treated with nuflor and was successful Ive not dealt with hoof rot...Im grabbing at straws here....so in short....I think I might be making things worse hoof trim wise?? and internal hoof rott??


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

here a closer look at todays hoof


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Im wondering if its diet related somehow....I could be totally off base here , but what if you just kept up with her heel trimming , and not trimmed where she is favoring ? Let that part grow out....idk , its just a thought. I think i read that adding Zinpro 40 to their diet helps with hoof issues...
Those red splotches are strange.....cant wait to see what others say. Glad she is improving though , if she's up on her feet more now , something is going right i guess..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

To me the trim looks good but I'm no hoof expert at all. What about soaking the foot and use essential oils?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> To me the trim looks good but I'm no hoof expert at all


 Me too Karen..Im pretty good at a regular trim..a goat with no hoof issue..but not sure about this gal!! her hoof looks good once Im done, I want to see a flat bottom, no rocking hooves ect....but hers are growing way too fast and poorly. Lots of real thick wall areas and twists??/ She has me scratching my head all the time...folks will think I have lice lol

I think her diet is ok...I have been soaking in epsom salt water...I can add Eos....im thinking Tea tree and maybe Helichrysum, and Peppermint as Jill suggested. ...Im also going to start a five day round of Nuflor today in case there is infection up there...she is just a happy healthy girl other wise..!! lol...So much going on right now makes one on one care a pain!! but I am determined!!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

From what I can see, she needs to have a little more taken off the middle, leave the heel alone.
If you draw a straight line from toe to heel & a parallel line from hairline front to back can you visualize that?
Trimming can be deceitful. Toe sticking up so ya naturally think get more heel off when the opposite is what is really needed.
As for suspected hoof rot or wall separation, topical La 200 really helps.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks Nancy. I will work on the middle section...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Can't draw a straight line on this thing :lol: Follow the natural lines on the ankle. She doesn't have upright pasterns. Her's are like Pup's hind feet...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks Jill..that helps!!!..


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Cathy, all this talk of Strawberry Hoof rot reminded me of something...

Try trimming all the hair away from the top of the hoof around the "white line". Scrub the white line area and between the toes gently with saline or Epson's solution, dry. Coat the whole area, between toes and all the way around the white line area of both toes on each affected foot with Zinc Oxide ointment or Desitin, making sure to rub it in enough to fill any little pin holes in the area. Keep the ointment on for a week to see if the pin holes are filling in and the hoof growing healthier. If so, keep that up until there's 1/4 inch of healthy growth.
The feed store should have a little stall block in the horse aisle. It's called "Apple flavored horse vitamin block" That has the support vitamins she needs to grow new feet.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ill give that a try Jill. Thanks


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

this is an old thread but thought I would update on Emmy to end the wonder lol . Her condition ended up being Founder. She has foundered 4 more times after this case. Stress seems to set her off..Severe storms, kidding etc. We held off breeding her and she did wonderful. She was doing well being off all grain and eating chaffhaye and hay only. After doing so well we bred her. She did great until baby was nearly 3 months old..then she foundered again. (gave her grain to maintain weight and milk, bad idea!) I love this goat so much, but its frustrating going through this so often. Each time we catch it pretty quick and get her on her feet ..this times its been a battle. SO...Im going to do a cleanse on her to see if we cant reboot her system so to speak. She is healthy otherwise.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thanks for the update, I was reading through and suspected founder. 
Almost responded as it was just happening, then I seen the date. 

Sorry she keeps getting it. 
Grain can cause it to happen.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

So goats are like ponies? Once they founder, it is a life long battle to prevent another episode? You are a good person to keep cariing for your doe. So many people would have sent her to the sale barn, figuring it's not worth the hassle!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yep unfortunately.


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