# CL and Pigeon Fever and CL



## LuvmyGoaties (Mar 9, 2010)

Over the past week I have seen a couple posts that say Pigeon Fever in horses is the same a CL in goats. I didn't know that and now I am scared. I had pigeon fever go through my herd of horses about 5 years ago. We also live in an area with wild mustang herds - when my horses got it I witnessed a couple mustangs that also appeared to have it, while my horses where contained to just a portion of my land the mustangs were all over it. I did a lot of research on it at the time as it was new to me (I am originally from MA and it apparently is not that common on the east cost). The impresion I got from my research and from my vet was that it lived in the soil for years and while it was often hard to clear up it didn't appear to be anything cronic. I never read about horses being euthanised because of it. My horses that had it never got it again. 

I got my goats from a CL free herd but now I am freaking out that I could still have the bacteria in my soil and the goats could be exposed. Should I be worried? :?


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I would just keep an eye on the goats... If it has been that long - chances are slim that they would pick it up and it would only be the insides of the abcesses from the horses which is not a lot of exudus.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

"Pigeon Breast" and CL are caused by the same bacterium -- corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis. And, yes, it can live in the soil for years. If your horses picked it up from somewhere, the goats could as well.. That is to say, it's possible.

I'm not sure I'd lose sleep over it, but I'd consider it just the same as having a farm where CL+ goats lived five years ago.. For me, that would most likely mean off-label vaccinations with Case-Bac. 

There's a lot written about how dangerous and what a bad idea it is to vaccinate goats with Case-Bac, but...well, a lot of it was written by one fairly prominent goat producer (who shall remain nameless) who actually had CL in her herd at the time she was writing all the horrible tales of woe that would almost certainly result from Case-Bac vaccinations. She even went so far as to say that CL was simply fact of life in raising goats, and states that if you don't already have it in your herd...you eventually will have it. 

Mostly because she had it in her herd, I suspect, and because...ya know...she's an expert. So, if an expert has it, it must be acceptable.

Eventually, people began to ignore her and try it for themselves...and found that it works. The exact same type of vaccination (killed whole cell) is actually available on-label for goats in other countries (Australia and NZ, for instance) as a 4-way combo with C/D-T..

Once that particular nameless producer figured out that other people were successfully eradicating CL from their herds for $.50/head...and, I suspect, that she'd eventually be one of the few hold-outs who refused to vaccinate for it...she did an about-face and now actually recommends Case-Bac vaccinations on her website....right down to dosages, intervals, injection site locations, and needle guages.

Ever the expert, obviously.. :/

Anyway...I guess what I'm getting to is that, if I were you, I'd probably just go ahead and vaccinate my herd with Case-Bac to be on the safe side. It's cheap, and based on what I've read and heard from people who have actually used it, it's much safer than certain individuals would have liked for us to believe.

Just my $.02.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Love it - completely agree! As long as you are honest as to your reasoning as to why you vaccinate and are up front about it - people are more willing to listen and understand. If not - then that is there choice to not purchase from you, but at least you are doing the best that you can do for your goaties - that is the biggest thing in my book!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I whole heartedly agree, most of the meds we use on our goats are "off label", as with any med there is always the risk of side effects and I have used the Case-Bac, it's been years and it was due to me being scared enough for my pets to try it. I did the booster series and hadn't used it since and the only reaction I saw was a bit of soreness with the injection site..... and none ever had abcesses and testing came back negative. One thing with using the Case Bac is if you have a positive goat, the vaccine will bring out abcesses and speed up the process of the disease.
Being honest is always best, sure you may have those that walk away and you may have those that will talk and twitter without getting the facts but there are those that would rather deal with an honest person than with a person who isn't.


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

Colorado Serum makes Case-Bac, this is their official word on using it with goats:

http://www.colorado-serum.com/vets/vol_2/vol2_10.htm


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Yeah, Colorado's pretty frank about it...but it's also interesting if you kind of pay attention to what they *don't* say about Case-Bac in goats..

They say the main reason it's not labeled for goats is because they saw some injection reactions they didn't like...what they DON'T say is that it won't work to provide immunity from CL. Reason being, they know it works!

They also make sure to tell you that they get calls from people using it off label.... Again, what they DON'T say is that people are reporting the same injection site reactions Colorado saw, but instead a bit of lethargy, reduced feed intake, reduced milk yield, etc..........all of which sound an awful lot like normal vax reactions to me. I think that was sorta the point of how that was all worded.

My favorite part comes at the bottom where they basically say -- and I'm paraphrasing here -- "Hey, you could always pay PHL associates to make you a vaccine....but we really don't think that will work."

LOL

I dunno.. I guess my take on the whole thing is that what they're saying is "We tested it for goats, and it provides immunity, but we knew the USDA wouldn't like the injection site reactions WE were seeing....even though other folks who call us with off-label reports haven't complained to us about that.. If you're worried, you could always pay PHL through the nose for a vaccine that probably won't work nearly as well as ours...which is $6."

And I actually do know of someone who paid PHL through the nose to have an autogenous vaccine cultured out of her herd.. She used it as directed, and watched CL continue to make its way through her herd. At some point, she decided...to heck with it...I'm going to try Case Bac.

And it worked...and has been working for years. She just said the other day that, since she's been using Case-Bac, she's seen maybe 2 vaccinate goats actually come down with CL out of 20 or 30 naive goats that are put out in a herd with *known* CL+ goats.

That's upward of 90% effective, which is right in line with studies I've seen on off-label use of Case-Bac in goats..


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Everyone has great advice....and I agree ... :thumb:


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

I don't have CL in my herd, and have decided not to vaccinate. I don't bring home strays and don't breed in or out unless I know the animal coming for stud has been tested or the buck I'm using elsewhere has been. If I still end up at some point with CL, then what some say; "if you don't have it you will eventually" is true. That said, I wonder if they're REALLY working on a goat labeled version as they say on their page. 

I do have a close friend who some years ago bought two CL negative Nigies to start a herd. Her family went on vacation and elicited the help of a neighbor to feed the goats and other livestock. Well guess what? Her neighbor was treating two of his horses for pigeon fever and spread it to her goats. Her vet happened to be the same vet the neighbor used and he was checking over her goats some months later and found a lesion. It was the first one and had not burst. She got rid of the goats and started over and so far hasn't had an outbreak. Her vet said the simple act of cleaning a horse's sore, failing to wash hands well and then throwing a flake of hay to the goats was plenty of exposure to transmit the bacteria.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Yep...it's very, very contagious and lives for YEARS in the soil, on wooden hayracks, etc.. If I knew there was CL/Pigeon Breast on my farm at any point in probably the last *decade*, I'd be vaccinating with Case-Bac for sure.

That's just me, though.


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## LuvmyGoaties (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks for all of the replys. Where can I get Case-Bac? Will I need a prescription? 

Jen


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

The Case-Bac can be ordered through Jeffers Supply or through Colorado Serum
https://ssl1001.qwestoffice.com/colorad ... =0_134_177

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/

The price will depend on the size of the bottle, each goat will need 2 separate shots of 2cc each so if you have 10 goats to vaccinate you'll need a minimum of 40cc

The 50 dose bottle from Jeffers runs $23.90 and you'll also need to purchase an ice pack and mini cooler for shipping.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Something to note is that, like any vaccine, Case-Bac is considered a "biological" product. All biologicals instruct that you use the entire contents once the seal is broken...or, use what you need and pitch the rest. It's not something you want to use part of, stick in the fridge, then come back to use the rest later.

In other words, if you have 10 head or less...get *two* of the 10-dose vials instead of one bigger vial.


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