# Question for the Cattle people



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

This has been bugging me for a week now, so I figured I would post and see what kind of responses I got. 

Last week-end I was watching an episode of "The Incredible Dr. Pol", and a cow was having problems delivering a breech calf. Dr. Brenda got the call and, for whatever reason, tried to turn the calf into a normal presentation. Well, while trying to do that the cow's uterus was badly torn, she was headed towards bleeding out, and they gave up trying to deliver the calf and put the cow down. 

My question is this - how many of have tried to re-position a backwards/breech calf? We raised cows for a whole lot of years and I do not ever remember Dad or the vet ever trying to re-position a backwards/breech calf. If backwards, it was pulled backwards. If breech, it was pushed back into Mom far enough to get the back legs out and pulled backwards. Is that how you handled it, too? Thanks for your response!


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Wow! No, never with a cow, goat, or horse have I pushed a kid/calf/foal back in, if it's rear legs were out. Even if there was room to push it back in, I can't even fathom how you'd turn an 80lb calf around in there grab both front legs and the head and get it out that way.
I've gotta watch that show now! I've heard stories like that about it, I'm too curious now


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I would never dream of trying to re-position a backwards/breech kid - let alone a 60-80 lb calf! This calf had no legs sticking out - it was breech - but I do not understand why she didn't just get the back legs out and pull it backwards.


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I had a backwards breech kid once. The doe had already had one kid (this one was the second of triplets), and all I did was make sure that the hips could make it through the canal. I didn't even have to pull him. She had him out with no problems. I can't imagine trying to twist around a backwards breech calf, and I can only imagine that a vet would try it if it was a) a heifer and b) there was no way he could pass through the birth canal on his own. It doesn't happen often, but I would imagine it does happen every once in a while.


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Yes, but what would be the point of trying to re-position if he couldn't pass through the birth canal? Maybe I'm missing something here, but if he can't pass through the birth canal backwards, he can't pass through in a normal presentation, either. Wouldn't that be a good indication that it was time for a c-section? I don't know if the cow in question was a heifer or not. They referred to her as a cow, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything on tv.


----------



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

It's completely possible that the vet had no clue what he was doing. If the calf couldn't come through as a backward breech, I would assume a C-section was in order, but then again, a vet doesn't always make the right call. All too often, the only choice comes too late. It's completely possible that it looked like the calf could be pulled and the cow could make it through until it was too late. Cattle are a whole different ballgame and things can change in an instant. Hips are often a different size than the shoulders, especially on smaller breeds of cattle. I'm fairly sure the "clubby" types have just as many issues as standard breeds, and a breech can spell trouble in any species, not just cattle. I've heard enough horror stories of babies that initially seemed like they could pass through until they got stuck.

Frankly, I'm glad my doe was bred to a much smaller breed. While I know there can be complications, she's a good size body wise, and the only possible sires are known for low birth weights (in the 4-7lb range).


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

You're not telling me anything I don't already know. I am well aware of the problems hip-locked calves present, as well as the problems of trying to get overly large or blocky shoulders through the pelvis.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I have read some not so good things about Dr Pol on the internet. Sounds like a vet practice to possibly stay away from.


----------



## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I don't have that channel  BUT I did have a vet tell me one time to NEVER EVER push a kid back in (and I would assume it would apply to cattle) the reason being was that you could push the kid through the uterus, or if there was another kid you would push that one through. If the calf was breeched they should have just gotten the rear legs out behind the calf and pulled it that way or done a C-section. I also can't imagine trying to turn a calf like that. I do know when they are being born wether front ways or back wards, they brace their rear (or front) feet on the opposite side of the uterus, this is what helps push them out and is why it is very dangerous to push them back in.


----------



## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I watched that show- it seemed to me that her arms were too short to reach the calf's back legs- to pull them 
straight and decided to try and turn it. Before that doesn't make sense- she couldn't push the rump forward 
far enough to extend the legs and pull them out, so she tried to spin the calf over and grab the front legs. 
(I know what I'm trying to say! sorry it reads kind of goofy!)

I do like the show- he is a no nonsense vet, but since most vets now are catering to the dog and cat owners in the clean 
vet clinic, the scenes in a standard, manury cow barn tend to concern people with the lack of sanitation. But, a lot of
farmers just want the best treatment possible for the least amount of money! So, they do wait until it is almost too late, then
call the vet. Sometimes the end result is not favorable for the poor critter. Some of the old time farmers are the worst! 
(Our neighbor is one- farmed for 65 yrs. sees no need for veterinary help until the poor cow is almost dead- but the vets charge so much, 
almost can't blame him).

I sure can see why the show upsets a lot of people, he doesn't always use the most tact, doesn't always have the latest treatments,
and can be sort of gruff. I have noticed that he is a bit more professional now than the first season. It is an interesting show! 
I guess that is why there are so many channels, something for everyone!


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Wow!!! I agree with you...actually when I was younger my mom bought me this vet type book since I wanted to be a vet and I remember in big bold letters saying never try to turn the calf in that situation its never going to work. We have had some really hard pulls and messed up positioned kids and NEVER ruptured the uterus. So that story there makes me sick to my stomach on how hard they must have been on that poor cow.


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I watched that episode too. I happen to really like the show. That did bother me, BUT...I also know that sometimes things just don't work like you think they should. And I don't think Vet's are any more immune to that than the rest of us. I do think this show documents a pretty true to life vet practice and what actually happens. I didn't get to see the first season or 2 so don't know how much more professional he is, but I'm guessing he is trying to counter the people screaming about how horrible the conditions are on the farms. Too bad we can't all have a sanitary surgical suite on our farm for when we need it, huh?


----------



## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Ok now I'm lost. I haven't watched the episode. Was the calf in fact coming hips first, or back feet first? Almost always in our Holsteins we do assist and intervene a backwards calf in general. Back feet first is easier. It is way more stress on the calf, leading to pneumonia, spinal trauma, and sometimes dislocated hips/hocks/knees. These calves have a noticeable disadvantage in their growth pattern and are typically a few pounds smaller than their growth mates. Dead calves often pop and pull apart so loud you can hear the bones, especially ones that have been dead a while. Theres a much larger chance of death in this position as well. You need to work fast, swift, and your main concern is getting that thing out of her. I do smear dry lube in the vagina as far as I can reach prior to pulling. Heifers especially have a hard time healing with the blunt trauma of a backwards calf as well. They usually go down in production, go off feed, and stay in bed longer periods of time during the first week. We always supply a backwards momma with a slow-release calcium bolus, aspirin 3x/D, and give her MultiMin. 

Now, backwards hips-first calves are damn near impossible. I have never heard of anyone boasting about being able to pull a hips first calf in Holsteins. You have to go in and push that calf back in enough to grab either front legs, or back legs depending on how large momma's uterus is. She's gonna keep pushing against you all the while, so anytime we see tail-first, it's an immediate call to the vet. They come and give a spinal anesthetic, so she doesn't push the dickens out of herself. She does still try to push with the pressure of the calf, but it's not near as bad. It gives you time to readjust the calf, hook up chains and pull. Typically still backwards, unless mom is small. Then usually when you push back in, the calf spins, and you can grab a front leg.


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

He was full breech and his mother was Black Angus - according to what they said, a $2000.00 Black Angus. I just do not for the life of me understand why she tried to turn the calf instead of getting the back legs out and pulling him backwards.


----------



## DoubleR (Jan 13, 2014)

If I was watching the same episode, that cow was a Holstein. Dr. Brenda was trying to push it in enough to get a hold of the legs to pull it. There was no way to pull that calfs rear out without feet to pull. That cow was very big and deep. Not easy to get a hold of feet in that situation. Also she has shorter arms which didn't help the matter any.
I'm going to have to try and catch a rerun. Obviously I missed her trying to turn it around for a normal position delivery. Also missed it being an angus. The cow I saw was a Holstein.
What happened in the episode I saw was a sad reality. It's sometimes harder than ever to reach a leg/foot in a deep cow.


----------



## DoubleR (Jan 13, 2014)

mjs500doo said:


> Now, backwards hips-first calves are damn near impossible. I have never heard of anyone boasting about being able to pull a hips first calf in Holsteins. You have to go in and push that calf back in enough to grab either front legs, or back legs depending on how large momma's uterus is. She's gonna keep pushing against you all the while, so anytime we see tail-first, it's an immediate call to the vet. They come and give a spinal anesthetic, so she doesn't push the dickens out of herself. She does still try to push with the pressure of the calf, but it's not near as bad. It gives you time to readjust the calf, hook up chains and pull. Typically still backwards, unless mom is small. Then usually when you push back in, the calf spins, and you can grab a front leg.


This was the case.


----------



## DoubleR (Jan 13, 2014)

Is this the episode your talking about? http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/wild/the-incredible-dr-pol/videos/the-one-that-got-away/


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

DoubleR said:


> If I was watching the same episode, that cow was a Holstein. Dr. Brenda was trying to push it in enough to get a hold of the legs to pull it. There was no way to pull that calfs rear out without feet to pull. That cow was very big and deep. Not easy to get a hold of feet in that situation. Also she has shorter arms which didn't help the matter any.
> I'm going to have to try and catch a rerun. Obviously I missed her trying to turn it around for a normal position delivery. Also missed it being an angus. The cow I saw was a Holstein.
> What happened in the episode I saw was a sad reality. It's sometimes harder than ever to reach a leg/foot in a deep cow.


That is not the episode I'm talking about. As previously stated - the cow in question was a Black Angus, not a Holstein, she was trying to turn the calf into a normal presentation - not get a hold of the back legs.


----------



## DoubleR (Jan 13, 2014)

Do you know if this was a rerun show you saw?


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

No, I do not think it was a re-run.


----------



## DoubleR (Jan 13, 2014)

Hummmm... I'm trying to find the episode. The link above is the one I was referring to. Aired last week. They did claim it was an expensive cow etc. 
Just trying to see what your upset/posting about.


----------



## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

DoubleR said:


> Is this the episode your talking about? http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/wild/the-incredible-dr-pol/videos/the-one-that-got-away/


Yes.


----------



## DoubleR (Jan 13, 2014)

Ok. Were discussing the same episode then. 
It's a Holstein on a diary. 
I'm going to DVR the whole episode again but I guarantee you that is not an angus. 
I remember the guy narrating the show (not the owner) saying it was an expensive cow. Going to re watch the entire segment.


----------



## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

A $2000 Holstein is nothing. Lol If it is a Holstein. That's cheap. And I'm up in Wisconsin, dairy aplenty!


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I'm a little late but I agree, I would never try to turn a breech kid of calf.... way too many problems can arise.


----------



## DoubleR (Jan 13, 2014)

She was trying to get the legs out not turn the calf around for front delivery.


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Oh I see. In that case I may try if the cow or doe can't get them out. But I know goats usually can... Just delivered one like that a couple months ago. Back legs were up by the head. Mama had a hard time but she got the job done.


----------



## DoubleR (Jan 13, 2014)

You can see a short version of the video in question by the link I provided above.  It was a sad case.


----------

