# Buck Service Refund?



## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Hello All, 

I need some business advice please...

1. Buyer places deposit on 1 milker & 2 kid discount package.

2. Buyer orders discounted rare/endangered breed chicken package with goats.

3. Buyer takes chickens home...goats still on farm. 

4. Changes order to 3 doe KID package and attempts to barter.

5. Changes order once again to include 1 discounted buck service to Superior Genetics * buck.

6. CANCELS ALL GOATS!!!

Buyer agrees to me keeping deposit money for goats however, wants Buck Service fee refunded.

In attempts to lighten my goat load, I was willing to offer my rare/endangered chickens at a substantial discount together with the goats as a package...now, I have extra kiddings, milkings etc. and practically gave away my chickens as well!

Buyer is thinking about possibly more chickens however, I really don't want to do any more business with this person again!

What would YOU do? What would YOU say??? I'm stumped.

Thanks in Advance.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

I would say ..."NO!" no more chickens, no more messing around. They cost you your precious time. There are other buyers out there who will not treat you so rudely. I would refund the stud service fee so they have no reason to return to your farm, dust your hands and walk away. If pushed I would say something like, " I am not happy with how our previous transaction went down and I do not do business that way. Thank you for your interest but no."


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Thanks Mimi...so...1 vote for refund and I like what you said very much!

Only problem is I asked her for her address to send a check and she said she just wants a farm credit....EEEKKKK!!


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

TEll her it's not your policy to give credit that you have to return the money.


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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Lol...sounds scary...a real manipulator,... seriously, no matter what, those are your animals, it's your farm and it's your time. You get to decide not her. Allowing her farm credit will only encourage her to stick around. I'm with JaLyn, call her and tell her if she wants a refund you will need to send her a check immediately, otherwise she looses it. If that sounds hard to do, remind yourself to think of the day that she might show up demanding some of your finest animals at a deeply discounted price because you "owe" her. 

By the way your avatar is LOVELY!


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## Texas.girl (Dec 20, 2011)

I have never bought or sold any animals, they just show up here. But if I was in your situation I don't think I would have given any refunds since you do not want to do business with her again. But since you said you would, I agree with the others. No farm credit. I would let her know that the chickens were sold at a discount to her because she had wanted the goats too. That they normally go for $_____. In her case I might even inflate the price of those chickens to get the message across that she got them for nothing. If in any way she tries to manipulate you into doing any more buisiness in any way I would not allow it. "Give me your address so I can send you a refund check or forever hold your peace" and no refund period. If there is a way to do it quietly, I would also let others in your area know what kind of buyer she is. No one wants to do business with someone like that. I would not even trust her to take proper care of the animals.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What is your policy on the buck service refunds? If you don't have one, then it would probably be easier just to refund that money and use it as a "lessons learned." Then I would sit down and write an extensive sales and breeding policy to make it clear on how sales and breeding contracts will go and what will or will not be refunded.

I agree with others, either they get a check back or nothing. Never do farm credit. You want the books clean at the end of the year. Also put that in your sales policy too.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

If she wants her money, she has to get it YOUR way. NO EXCEPTIONS. This is your farm, don't give ground.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

I would agree with others, NO REFUND, I'd let them go on their way and be done with them. For future reference you may have to put some of that in writing just in case you get another flake who tries to push it all the way.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I'd be inclined to keep the stud service fee, explaining the chicken discount, boarding for the goats, etc. and you need compensation for all that and see what happens. Each situation is going to be different...so I could go either way with this. But either way, this person would no longer be welcome to purchase from me again.


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Woodhaven Farm...I love your sales policy & website! 

I need to post something like that to save me the additional time it takes in email correspondence.

I do have my nonrefundable deposit stated however, I just learned the hard way regarding buck services.

I'm thinking I'll try and educate her as to what type of burden she has placed on my home and family by sticking me with an extra bred doe. She keeps saying she understands because she was a CAT breeder.

I know she didn't do much goat research because she wanted ME to be the educator (which took even more of my TIME) and impressed me with her beautiful pastures and barn but I also learned that the buyer, no matter what they have to offer should have done more homework first...Again, LOVE your sales policy!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

ExtraObers said:


> Woodhaven Farm...I love your sales policy & website!
> 
> I need to post something like that to save me the additional time it takes in email correspondence.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks!  I'm glad you like it! I wanted to be able to have something out in the open for all prospective buyers to read -- also why I made a goat care website. I'll send anyone who is new to goats and wants to buy there. That way I'm sure I won't forget to cover the basics.

Sorry this has been such a tough time. It is our duty to teach them the basics, but if they aren't willing to do research and learn on their own, then it's a lost cause. :/


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

For me, I make a customer, sign a contract or specify this, in an email, that all deposits are non refundable, and ask, that the buyer agrees to this before giving or sending deposits. That way, you get rid of the people, that play their games.
If you feel, the buyer needs to be refunded for the stud service fee, then, as mentioned, tell this person, you have a choice, you have within 1 week or less, you decide how long. For this buyer, to take their refund back, that you will send it to them,but need an address, if the buyer doesn't want to give the address to you, the buyer forfeits the service fee. Tell them, you do not credit service fee's. Be straight forward and tell them, the way it is going to be, no exceptions~!! This buyer, is really giving you the runaround and it needs to stop. I am sorry you ran into a buyer such as this, not fun, start a non refundable policy for all types of deposits, hope this helps in the future.


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Thank you Toth! 

I like your time-expiration date policy idea as well. I also like the idea behind getting the buyer to SIGN it when they place the deposit...including their name, address and phone number would help in many ways as well (especially when paying in cash). Goodness, now I understand why these things are so important. I don't even have her last name!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

ExtraObers said:


> Thank you Toth!
> 
> I like your time-expiration date policy idea as well. I also like the idea behind getting the buyer to SIGN it when they place the deposit...including their name, address and phone number would help in many ways as well (especially when paying in cash). Goodness, now I understand why these things are so important. I don't even have her last name!


 Your Welcome  
Yes, it is very important, some people aren't honest so, we have to watch out for ourselves. 

I also have them include their email address as well. Remember, an email is a contract type thing as well. They must agree, that the deposit is non refundable. Make it perfectly clear cause, with their response, that is evidence,especially if, the buyer lives out of State . But of course, having them actually sign a contract, is even more binding if it is in person. 
If the buyer, does live out of state, either before or after I receive deposit, I ask, when pickup date will be, I make it clear that, the goat, must be picked up within 2 weeks after the deposit is received, or, if the goat isn't quite old enough to be weaned, then, it has to be 2 weeks after, the weaning date. 
I will fill out a contract,date it, that I received the United States Postal Service money order, no checks. Stating, the deposit is non refundable and put on it, the pickup date, print out the receipt/ contract, sign it and scan it, then, send, to buyer via email, they must print it out, sign it, scan it, then, send it to me through email, they can bring to me the original, at the time of pickup, or mail it, if it arrives before they do. If the buyer has no scanner, the email is a good proof, that they accepted the deposit as, non refundable. 
This is the way I do it and I explain, that I don't like having to do it this way but, I have gotten bad buyers, that wanted to give me the runaround, so, I was forced to change my policies. true buyers, understand completely, I have had no issues, other then, a buyer promised to send deposit and fail to do so. Of course, that is about a week or less of waiting, it is a bummer but, it can happen. Then, I move onto the next buyer.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

Toth, so true, it is unfortunate. I had a signed deal with a couple (treated as common law marriage), they took my reg. fb doe, with her two rg. fb doelings for the price of less than one ( I was moving). She was able to breed them and keep their babies if she chose, and then when I was moved back to property I was to get back my choice, one of my doelings bred to her fb buck, or another equal bred doe. Well when the time came, remember I had this in writing, the couple had split. He signed over the goats to her and she moved to cowlitz county (over 2hr away), for me to enforce the contract I'd have to drive to her county (even though it was signed and action taken here) and take her to court. 
So as said, lesson learned, unfortunately it's after the fact


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Wow, I'm so glad to hear all of this from you guys. We learn from our mistakes. I will now be able to formulate some sort of professional response to her recent demands and I'll let you know what she says....I've bee more than accommodating and fair so far.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Also remember to have some sort of receipt with name, address and phone number as record and keep for 5 years in case something comes up. I know in Ohio you have to keep those records for 5 years in case of scrapies.


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Thanks Karen!


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## WhisperingWillowNDG (Jul 20, 2011)

I agree with you guys (not that you needed one more person saying so!!) If you choose to refund (I would if it wasn't agreed before hand that breeder fees are non- refundable), then it must be in your terms. This "buyer" has inconvenienced you enough with her shenanigans. I would send her a check and wash my hands of her. 

I have had to amend my sales agreement many times lol... once to clarify "bred doe" vs "exposed doe" and the rules for transport.... it gets longer every time. Now I need to add a new section for "Slow Payers".


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

clearwtrbeach said:


> Toth, so true, it is unfortunate. I had a signed deal with a couple (treated as common law marriage), they took my reg. fb doe, with her two rg. fb doelings for the price of less than one ( I was moving). She was able to breed them and keep their babies if she chose, and then when I was moved back to property I was to get back my choice, one of my doelings bred to her fb buck, or another equal bred doe. Well when the time came, remember I had this in writing, the couple had split. He signed over the goats to her and she moved to cowlitz county (over 2hr away), for me to enforce the contract I'd have to drive to her county (even though it was signed and action taken here) and take her to court.
> So as said, lesson learned, unfortunately it's after the fact


If the contract stated, that you had your choice back, that person needed by law, I would think, to notify you first, before he could legally turn them over to his ex wife. But hey, I could be wrong? It is unfortunate.


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

I just sent her an email so, we'll see what she says. 

I lucked out and found a breeding trio of the 6 chickens she purchased, the 3 sold at auction for $230.00. I charged $20.00 a piece with the goat package deal. I made a copy of the auction page at close including the $120 auction shipping charge. So she can see I gave her a great deal.

Anyway, I told her I will remove the buck service and add it to the chicken package price with a detailed explanation. 

I also said I would be happy to provide an invoice if she would provide me with her name, address, etc.

I have to laugh at Tara..."shenanigans" LOL...well said! AND thanks for the extra info "Bred" vs "Exposed" I can see where that could be an issue as well! "Slow Payers"? Oh no, maybe we should all have a 10 page sales policy. : )

I just don't want to scare too many people off. LOL 

You guys are great, I'm glad to have access to so much help and great ideas.


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## fd123 (May 29, 2012)

I wonder if you worded into a sales policy that NO changes to original contract agreement will not be made unless agreed upon by both parties? And then be sure to type in the header on the sales contract "ORIGINAL". Well atleast you, and everyone thats read this thread knows now that if a buyer starts wanting to switch and swap things around to either 1- Cancel the entire deal! or 2 - Re-Negotiate a whole new deal! ....This woman has mistaken your kindness for weakness and has taken full advantage of you! and shes planning on doing it again it sounds like by wanting a farm credit! YOU MUST PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN NOW WITH THIS WOMAN! As someone said above..Those are your animals that youve worked hard to maintain! She can only take advantage of you if you allow her to! You CAN NOT be nice to some people. This womans agenda is to rip you off!! STICK TO YOUR GUNS!!
BEST OF LUCK!!! and thanks for sharing your story..it will possibly help me in the future if faced with a simaliar situation!


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## WhisperingWillowNDG (Jul 20, 2011)

fd123 said:


> I wonder if you worded into a sales policy that NO changes to original contract agreement will not be made unless agreed upon by both parties? And then be sure to type in the header on the sales contract "ORIGINAL". Well atleast you, and everyone thats read this thread knows now that if a buyer starts wanting to switch and swap things around to either 1- Cancel the entire deal! or 2 - Re-Negotiate a whole new deal! ....This woman has mistaken your kindness for weakness and has taken full advantage of you! and shes planning on doing it again it sounds like by wanting a farm credit! YOU MUST PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN NOW WITH THIS WOMAN! As someone said above..Those are your animals that youve worked hard to maintain! She can only take advantage of you if you allow her to! You CAN NOT be nice to some people. This womans agenda is to rip you off!! STICK TO YOUR GUNS!!
> BEST OF LUCK!!! and thanks for sharing your story..it will possibly help me in the future if faced with a simaliar situation!


Absolutely agree here! I email the agreement to my buyers, they forward it to me with a line saying that they agree to my terms. I then print and save that email (it goes into a special file in my Dropbox folder). If they want to change the deal then a new agreement is sent with the new deal. Again they forward and "agree" and the process starts all over again.

"Slow Payers" are buyers that want to pay over time (Layaway for Goats lol). I'm getting burned by thus currently. She put a deposit down on them in August with the agreement that she had 2 months to pay in full. She also requested them bred (they were bred in August). Her father died in October and she requested a one month extension... so now it's been 3 months... and I'm still waiting for her to finish paying and pick them up. After this there will be a fee for our Layaway Service and no doe will be exposed until Paid in Full.

I think you are doing very well dealing with this person. Stick to your guns and don't let her push you around. Thumbs up!!


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

holy hanna! that a lot for chickens-what kind of chickens do you raise? Do they lay golden eggs or winning lotto tickets? LOl Very cool-I hope you can get that much for them!


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Yes, re-negotiations...maybe, I/we should have something on the contract that states if changes to this contract occurs, it renders it null and void? 

Thanks for reminding me that I need to add no doe will be exposed to a buck until paid in full.

Well, she wasn't happy but wants a new invoice for tax purposes deleting the buck service and adjusting the chicken price...so, looks like I'll be needing to save all of my correspondence with her. She of course had to add that in all her years as a cat breeder that she never kept a breeding fee. (I doubt she had to milk the cat and bottle raise the kittens)

Chickens? I have OCD...Obsessive Chicken Disorder!
Euskal Oiloa/Marraduna Basque, Java, Le Flesche, French Marans, Dorkings, True Araucana and Bresse (soon to come).


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## fd123 (May 29, 2012)

ExtraObers...You DONT OWE this CON any explaination for retaining the fee! "COMMON SENSE" goes a long way! This crook knows the difference between a cat, and a goat!! Its a HUGE difference! I fell so bad for you getting caught up in this cons attempt to rip you off!! I pray for CLOSURE in this crazy situation, and that you dont end up having to give away the farm for a chicken!! lol....


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## fezz09 (Oct 30, 2012)

WOW this lady sounds insane! It drives me crazy when people expect something for nothing and then get mad when you don't follow along with l of their outrageous demands!! Good luck! Be strong and maybe next time she deals with someone she will be a little less arrogant!!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good luck, hope all goes OK ExtraObers


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I hope it all works out for you. Really doesn't matter what the cat world does. I don't think anyone does things the same. I came from the alpaca world and we offered live birth guarantees with our breedings and you don't find that in the goat world. She is in for a wake up call when she deals with more goat breeders. Or they will give in to her and then never do business with her again.


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## WhisperingWillowNDG (Jul 20, 2011)

ksalvagno said:


> I hope it all works out for you. Really doesn't matter what the cat world does. I don't think anyone does things the same. I came from the alpaca world and we offered live birth guarantees with our breedings and you don't find that in the goat world. She is in for a wake up call when she deals with more goat breeders. Or they will give in to her and then never do business with her again.


Indeed. The Goat World is much smaller than it seems.


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Oh yeah...she had to add that her cats were $1,200 a piece...probably just to put me in my little place? I finally DID get her address and still considering sending a refund check just so she has even less to "write off"...but after reading all of your comments....hmmmm. 

I just love these round table discussions!


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## WhisperingWillowNDG (Jul 20, 2011)

ExtraObers said:


> Oh yeah...she had to add that her cats were $1,200 a piece!


Laugh! You've GOT to be kidding me!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, that is an unreal price


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## WhisperingWillowNDG (Jul 20, 2011)

WhisperingWillowNDG said:


> Laugh! You've GOT to be kidding me!


If that's true why the heck did she get out of that?! Cats have 6+ kittens per litter... that's 6000+ for ONE litter! I call BS, but whatever.

I've been to a few catteries and let me tell you... ugh... I thought I would never get that smell out of my clothes (worse than buck stench in my opinion). Maybe it's a good thing your lovely goaties didn't end up there....


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

hahaha I love goat people! 

Thanks for the support all! I've decided to send her a refund for the buck service because you never know what the next stunt may be?! I don't know, maybe I'm a big fool but at least I can sleep at night. I will keep the deposit money and purchase a load of hay to get me to the next crazy buyer. But this time, I'll be a little wiser. : )

Sometimes I think I'm just plain jinxed. I went to post a new add online and found 2 of my goats for sale I just sold only a few months ago! Bummed...they were good ones too.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Happens to everyone who sells animals :/


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

ExtraObers said:


> hahaha I love goat people!
> 
> Thanks for the support all! I've decided to send her a refund for the buck service because you never know what the next stunt may be?! I don't know, maybe I'm a big fool but at least I can sleep at night. I will keep the deposit money and purchase a load of hay to get me to the next crazy buyer. But this time, I'll be a little wiser. : )


You are not a fool for refunding the buck service deposit. If you didn't have a policy in place, then it is not bad to "save face" with the refund. Hopefully the person will walk away with not reporting a bad impression of you. Lesson learned and now you can put a policy in place for the next time.

As far as people reselling what they bought from you, happens all the time. I have had that happen to me and while it is upsetting, there is nothing you can do and they have the right to do whatever they want with the animal they bought. I have just had to harden up when it comes to that.


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

"Chickens? I have OCD...Obsessive Chicken Disorder!
Euskal Oiloa/Marraduna Basque, Java, Le Flesche, French Marans, Dorkings, True Araucana and Bresse (soon to come). "

Wow havent heard of somer of those-We should start a group ;] I have OCD too!!!!!! Going to google to check out those "new" breeds!


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

If you are selling 'good ones' that you wouldn't mind having back, you could add a first right of refusal to your contract. At least, if they are honest, that would give you the option to buy the animal back. Just a thought we've done that in the show dog world. 
Sometimes I think I'm just plain jinxed. I went to post a new add online and found 2 of my goats for sale I just sold only a few months ago! Bummed...they were good ones too.[/QUOTE]


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, fire has been put out after my latest email with refund and updated invoice...she even wished me a Merry Christmas!

Now, I can move forward with a new feather in my cap and a whole gang of great new goat friends! Priceless : )

Thanks ALL!
~Glenis


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

How you handle a situation is just as important as having good animals to sell. Glad a crisis was averted and it is over.


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## ExtraObers (Nov 26, 2012)

Very well said!!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Great to hear


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## Arkie (Sep 25, 2012)

My personal thoughts on folks like this; "Screw me once, SHAME on you. Screw me twice, SHAME on me"!

Bob


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