# looking for purely commercial producers



## mcompton1973 (Jun 11, 2012)

I am still getting my plans put together etc for a purely commercial operation. The more I look at websites etc, almost everything I see is either very small hobby farm or show related. 

Wondering if anyone here is purely commercial meat goat focused, or if they know of any websites of people that are.

thanks...


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Just because someone is breeding for show quality does not mean every kid born is destined for the ring.
It's a good place to pick up quality commercial animals a whole lot cheaper than show prospects.


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## svtbronco (Aug 23, 2013)

This is exactly why I joined this site and a great question. I have had a hard time finding reasonably priced goats for a commercial producer. Im getting my farm ready to start goat farming in the spring


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

mcompton1973 said:


> I am still getting my plans put together etc for a purely commercial operation. The more I look at websites etc, almost everything I see is either very small hobby farm or show related.
> 
> Wondering if anyone here is purely commercial meat goat focused, or if they know of any websites of people that are.
> 
> thanks...


Can I ask why? Are you looking to purchase goats?


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## mcompton1973 (Jun 11, 2012)

Actually, I am mainly looking at husbandry kinds of things. Maybe I am wrong, but I would have to think that the person raising 250 commercial does is probably doing some management things different than the person raising 25 show quality does. I am looking at eventually having 250+ (not soon...but eventually).

Thanks.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Ok, I see. While I agree that the end result is different, there are probably not nearly as many major differences in management between 250 commercial does and 25 show does as one might think. Basic animal husbandry practices are the same regardless of the number of goats one has. I am a purely commercial meat goat producer, but I currently have 87 does of varying ages along with 22 wethers that I haven't shipped yet.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

nancy d said:


> It's a good place to pick up quality commercial animals a whole lot cheaper than show prospects.


Not around here it isn't. Any show outfit I've talked to in this area prices their kids _starting_ at around $250.00. Tack on the cost of $237.25 to maintain 1 doe for a year on hay only at the current prices, and you're in the hole before you ever start. If the need to feed grain or alfalfa pellets arises that adds another .25/lb for alfalfa pellets and .26/lb for meat grower pellets. Not to mention the fact that, in my experience, there are not too many show animals that can handle doing their job in plain clothes.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Those who have more animals have to be more organized that is for certain. I think it isnt so bad to buy from small ranches. There are those who do care about breeding quality animals and who are selling their over flow Does. We are those kind of people. We sold some quality Does to a few 4Hrs and those Does have done really well for them even in the show ring. We are those simple little goat ranchers that know every little thing that goes wrong with any of our animals. When people have 250 goats - you are going to end up with some more wild Does and that is mostly because they have so many. Small hobby farms aren't so bad if they have clean herd and quality animals. I have to say.. Having 25 animals has got to be way different than 250. It will always be more difficult to manage the more animals that you have. More shots, more feed, more worming issues.. more issues of possible injuries and more likely to have some herd imbalance for Does trying to get along. It is such a relief to finally obtain Does in the herd that actually get along and are not continually fighting. Small ranches can produce good quality. We don't have as many to get rid of but then our culling system is quite strict to keep us small so some of our best go for various reasons of just having trouble finding their place in our herd.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm always looking to expand on what I've already learned, and improve on how I do things. Would you be willing to share your culling criteria?


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I was wondering what you all tho't was a reasonable price for a healthy, good formed, disease free, quality, tame & strong, worm free & worm resistant, well- bred goat? Around here, you get what you pay for. If you want a wormy, skinny, shaggy, long hoofed, untested animal then you can buy one here for about as low as $75 but then it may possibly come with problems that will cost you so much more in time, money, stress and then come breeding season more problems can happen plus possible diseases that you can not easily rid off your property. If you start out with just a few Healthy disease free Does and one quality registered buck- then you can upscale the next year for bigger plans. The learning curve with goats is large and I recommend anyone starting out to start out their first year with 3-5 Does. You could even possibly buy one expensive Doe pre-bred from a quality ranch and hope she produces you some baby bucks to breed to two other unrelated Does. This is how we started out- still had to buy a buck as the Doe we bought bred produced twin doelings. 
I have seen some good Does go for $150-200 Unregistered. That is a nice low price but I would be sure to check out the ranch and know what you are buying. If you pay $250-300 you are surely going to get a better quality Doe.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

You tend to get what you pay for here, too, but this is Wyoming, not California. Cattle and sheep are the norm here, not goats. Unless you have a strong Kiko influence somewhere in your goats background, they are not worm-resistent. Don't try to play me. I suckered into that B.S. about Boers being the be all, do all, end all once already - and I lost a whole lot of kids and a whole lot of money because the ones I had weren't worth the bullet it took to put them down.


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## mcompton1973 (Jun 11, 2012)

I guess some of the things that I am interested in are kind of what GoatCrazy touched on. On a more 'commercial' side of things if you are raising 75 or 750 does I would think parasite resistance becomes a bigger culling factor than say if you are raising 15. You can work 15 easily enough. You can feed expensive show goat grain and more money on all kind of things if you are going to sell them as breeding stock/show goats. If you are looking at taking everything you dont keep as replacement does at San Angelo or something similar, you have to watch inputs and labor very close. So maybe the prettiest doe's dont do as well on nothing but pasture. Maybe they have hooves that need more attention, but they are pretty and do well at the fair. 

I am NOT knocking show goats or saying that I cant find good breeding stock there. I am saying I am interested in people that are more pure commercial to see things like what they cull for, how they determine bucks, how often they examine hoofs and eyes for parasites etc etc.


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## mcompton1973 (Jun 11, 2012)

And....I would like to see some pictures of a commercial operation that uses primarily pasture...lol.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Cheap goats are not more parasite resistant than expensive goats. I would expect to pay $200-$250 for nice breeding age commercial goats. With that said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you found some even cheaper than that. If someone gave me 100 acres of good fenced browse and pasture, I would keep the goats I have and then look for goats that were raised on 100 acres of good fenced browse and pasture. The point is to buy goats that are in a similar program to yours. If you make the cattle comparison, why do fancy registered cattle even exist? Because they are breeding stock. Cattlemen know it pays to start out with the best seed stock you can afford. Theoretically, that's what the registered show goat people are producing for the commercial breeder. I understand that the fatties that you see at shows are not representative of a commercial goat condition wise, but they are evaluated on structure. Trust me, big commercial goat operations *DO* buy nice Fullblood registered bucks to put on their commercial does. They don't do it to show their neighbor the ennoblements on the papers, they do it because it makes them more money.


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## svtbronco (Aug 23, 2013)

The problem I've been having in my area is no real commercial farms. I want to see a big setup so I know what I need to plan for and start building. It has to be a little different from the hobby farm. The herd management has to be a little different also. Sounds like we are definitely in the same boat


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Goat Crazy,
were you asking me about our culling practices? Well.. this will be our set up because it works for our place and our conditions and won't be the same for someone else. 
First: We only want to keep no more than 6-8 quality Does on our property and one buck.. but.. figure that each doe usually will have twins and triplets so we only our only breeding 5 of our best Does. 
-Teat structure- Most all of ours so far already are born with good teat structure but it is something we consider of great importance. None of our Does have any troubles with nursing triplets even with just 2 teats. 
-Healthy hooves- dark pigmented hooves that are strong and that do not grow too quickly. We hardly ever had to trim our bucks hooves (yeah) He produced good dark healthy hooves in his offspring.
-thick ears that do not fold up or lengthwise. Fortunately most all of those ended up wethers and we think that our past buck was possibly producing this. Not sure.
-Good healthy bite - teeth line up well with no over bite.
-temperament- Some goats will just be more skitterish by nature and some will be more stubborn. The skitterish nature has been produced from our wonderful herd queen that has an absolute loving temperament. Her babies often are skitterish and wild BUT also with that trait comes a better survival trait too. 
- As for Worm Resistant- I have only one of the Does that I would say was more worm resistant than the rest. I havent decided if it is her breeding or in how she eats. She is a picky eater that doesnt like to graze close to the ground at all.. grass is nipped off high where as the others are not cautious and will vacuum up leaves and any dirt with it and their heads are always down nibbling. 

Worm Resistant: I know there are a lot of people who claim that Boers were more worm resistant. Well.. if they are in a high browse area I believe they will not have as many worms at all. Our herd queen that I have mentioned many times... she is not the show quality stocky type but she is smart.. she will not eat food that is dirty, she also has the more wild horns and she is not pure white.. several red hairs mixed in her white that take this type out of the show ring. I have been recently reading that this type of goat-described much like our Abelene is from the more- older traditional Boer breed. Perhaps she is actually the best quality goat we have as her more natural 'wilder' survival traits have not been bred out of her for the 'show' quality look. She has better smarts than the others, & is more worm resistance. This is my beloved pet- kept her little petite baby just for her almost reluctantly as I tho't she should have been culled - now that baby has grown to be just like her mother in most all the same good ways & actually is looking quite stout like her sire as well.
If we have an buck that is not of good breeding stock- it becomes a wether. We only sold one quality registerable buck so far. 
We have had to put a Doe down that ended up disliking children in an unusual way that I even felt she should not be sold- some people don't understand but this was a problem that I didnt want someone else to be sorry for so down she went. So.. yes.. I feel we have a strict culling system. I don't sell any secrets.. all the animals go for a good price that fits them. One of the Does was sold just because she could not find her place in the herd. She was a beautiful quality doe.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

If I were you.. I would just type in a google search in your area like this: Commercial Goat Breeders (your area) and you will probably get a listing of several types and sizes. That's what we did when we first got into our Boers.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

GoatCrazy said:


> You tend to get what you pay for here, too, but this is Wyoming, not California. Cattle and sheep are the norm here, not goats. Unless you have a strong Kiko influence somewhere in your goats background, they are not worm-resistent. Don't try to play me. I suckered into that B.S. about Boers being the be all, do all, end all once already - and I lost a whole lot of kids and a whole lot of money because the ones I had weren't worth the bullet it took to put them down.


It would benefit you to edit this- it sounds very harsh, rude and targetted. No one is trying to sucker you into Boers being the best all around goat. As far as show goats go.. there are some who are trying to improve not destroy the genetics of the Boer goat.


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## hscottom87 (Mar 21, 2013)

I really don't think she was being harsh or rude. She wasn't directing it to anyone here, it was a general statement targeted more towards people she's dealt w/ when buying goats. That's how I took it. No edit needed imo because it wasn't a biggie.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> Cheap goats are not more parasite resistant than expensive goats. I would expect to pay $200-$250 for nice breeding age commercial goats. With that said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you found some even cheaper than that. If someone gave me 100 acres of good fenced browse and pasture, I would keep the goats I have and then look for goats that were raised on 100 acres of good fenced browse and pasture. The point is to buy goats that are in a similar program to yours. If you make the cattle comparison, why do fancy registered cattle even exist? Because they are breeding stock. Cattlemen know it pays to start out with the best seed stock you can afford. Theoretically, that's what the registered show goat people are producing for the commercial breeder. I understand that the fatties that you see at shows are not representative of a commercial goat condition wise, but they are evaluated on structure. Trust me, big commercial goat operations *DO* buy nice Fullblood registered bucks to put on their commercial does. They don't do it to show their neighbor the ennoblements on the papers, they do it because it makes them more money.


I agree!! The purpose of showing is tofurher improve genetics, find faults and ultimatley produce the best goat we can. This sometimes gets lost in grooming and the greed of winning. But this should be every breeders goal


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

svtbronco said:


> The problem I've been having in my area is no real commercial farms. I want to see a big setup so I know what I need to plan for and start building. It has to be a little different from the hobby farm. The herd management has to be a little different also. Sounds like we are definitely in the same boat


I think you may be peg holing a little too much. Try broadening your scope of things. The only difference between a registered goat and a commercial goat is a piece of paper issued by some association, otherwise they are expected to do pretty much the same things, have correct conformation, be good mothers, and produce enough milk to raise a reasonable sized litter of kids. Agreed? To my way of thinking the difference between a show producer, a commercial producer, and a hobbyist is what they do with their goats and how they achieve that end. Their really is not that much difference in herd management between the 3. All 3 want healthy goats, and certain things have to be in place to achieve that. The show producer wants 'bloom' on his/her animals, whereas the commercial producer wants goats that can do the most on minimal feed, and the hobbyist wants to be able to keep their animals healthy while enjoying their company, antics, and being able to spoil and indulge them to whatever point they see fit. Does that make sense? A producer can raise registered animals in a commercial environment just as easily as they can registered animals in a show environment. Stop trying to segregate the different categories and start evaluating the animal according to what YOU want to accomplish.


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## 7SRanch (Apr 15, 2012)

Goat Crazy touched on one of the important factors in meat production herds. That is feed conversion. All the animals should be weighed several times per year so that you can keep track of things like pounds of kid produced per pound of doe. You want to know this so you know which doe produces the full potential. Ie a 100 lb doe has 2 kids that each weigh 45 lbs at weaning gives .9:1 vs a 90 lb doe having the same 45lb twins at weaning would have a ratio of 1:1 especially if they were on the same feed rations. Doe 2 has a higher production so the choice for culling between doe 1 or doe 2 would be doe 1. 
These are figures that a breeder raising "show" or registered animals would likely have available. 
Also registered bucks would have their lineage available for inspection so you would know what to expect from his progeny.
You will pay more up front but in the long run you will make more money.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Another thing a producer should be keeping track of is overall herd performance. Divide the number of kid by the number of does, anything over 175% is good.


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## 7SRanch (Apr 15, 2012)

GoatCrazy said:


> Another thing a producer should be keeping track of is overall herd performance. Divide the number of kid by the number of does, anything over 175% is good.


That is kids weaned. But you are absolutely right.


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## SunnydaleBoers (Jul 28, 2012)

I think Tenacross touched on it best- figure out how you want to raise your animals, and then buy from producers who raise them the same way. Genetics are part of the equation, but nurture is going to have an awful lot to do with it too. Plan that you're going to cull hard the first few years, until you've found a core group of animals that fits your program.

Your main concern (regardless of your program) should be mothering ability, kidding interval, and number of kids born per doe per year. After that I'd focus on longevity- parasite resistance, conformation and overall hardiness are all going to tie into that. The longer a doe stays in your herd, the more opportunity you're going to have to make money off of her. I'd emphasize those two aspects over pounds weaned per doe, rates of gain, etc. 

We are inherently lazy when it comes to livestock- we strive for animals that are as maintenance free as possible. I don't like to trim hooves, I don't like to worm, and it drives me up the wall to bottle feed kids. All of the above traits tie into that ideal maintenance free animal though. I don't think any one breed of goat is the answer, but it is possible to breed and select for the traits you want to emphasize.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

There are some people that have been raising goats in the way Sunnydale describes for years. They may have been among the first people to get the imported Boer goat. Some of them were raising Angora's for years before that. Unfortunately you don't often have them posting here on The Goat Spot and they long ago quit arguing with those who aren't fans of the Boer. That doesn't mean they don't exist. Think about having 10+ years of selection and culling behind your goats... Wouldn't you expect a decent price for replacement quality females off the farm?


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

It doesnt matter what breed of goat you have wether a Kiko or Boer or Savannah Meat goat.. You still have to work at a good culling practice to weed out traits that will create more work or and more money for your operation. This topic has been so overly talked about on so many different threads on Goat Spot. I am weary now of GS and learned about as much as I can. The only thing I am learning from it now is to stay out of certain topics -avoid dogmatic defensive posters who get overly uptight. I got too much work to do to be on here any more.. learn what you can and then go apply it.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I sent you a message of a man that helped me out but I'll post here on my thoughts since I read threw all the posts. I think you need to pin point your questions a little more. And even then you will get 100 different answers since everyone will have a different set up. You will need to filter threw them and make adjustments to what fits you. 
I'm guessing you have no set up for them at all but you want them to be pasture raised. With that large of a group of goats you are wanting you will need a barn or some kind of shelter for those goats to kid in. My stalls are 4x8 so that will give you a idea of what you will need in barn shelter size. My goats are pasture raised for the most part but my setup is very different then others. I have their pen to go into at night then in the morning I simply open the gate and let them out. They are dead center or 800 acrs so no goat fences just cattle barb wire. Some things to think about for your set up is if you want to alter different parts of your field which is a good idea. We do this with the cattle. We place in one field so the other fields get a chance to grow then when it starts to get short we move them. Not over grazing will help with worms. What was said above about buying from places that run their goats fairly the same as you wish to is the best advise here. I have purchased pampered pets and they will stand and wait for hay for about a week. Or if you are feeding hay at the time will turn their nose to it. For bucks spend the money and get a good buck. If you have a good buck and even total cull does you will end up with decent kids. If you can keep your heart out of it cull what ever does not meet your standards. I really don't have a parasite issue where I am so I don't have to stress about that bit I do cull over bad mothers who will not take care of their kids, if they have more then one single or if they just don't raise a good kid. If you want a large herd you don't have the time to out up with the ones that always seem to need you or not pull their weight. 
That's basically what I have learned over the years and how I do things. Just always have a open mind and you never know till you try. And always learn from the bad. Hope this helps you some.


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## 7SRanch (Apr 15, 2012)

SunnydaleBoers said:


> I think Tenacross touched on it best- figure out how you want to raise your animals, and then buy from producers who raise them the same way. Genetics are part of the equation, but nurture is going to have an awful lot to do with it too. Plan that you're going to cull hard the first few years, until you've found a core group of animals that fits your program.
> 
> Your main concern (regardless of your program) should be mothering ability, kidding interval, and number of kids born per doe per year. After that I'd focus on longevity- parasite resistance, conformation and overall hardiness are all going to tie into that. The longer a doe stays in your herd, the more opportunity you're going to have to make money off of her. I'd emphasize those two aspects over pounds weaned per doe, rates of gain, etc.
> 
> We are inherently lazy when it comes to livestock- we strive for animals that are as maintenance free as possible. I don't like to trim hooves, I don't like to worm, and it drives me up the wall to bottle feed kids. All of the above traits tie into that ideal maintenance free animal though. I don't think any one breed of goat is the answer, but it is possible to breed and select for the traits you want to emphasize.


These things are important especially to ranches raising breeding stock and show stock, but to a purely commercial meat ranch pounds weaned per doe translates to a better understanding of which doe is converting the input (feed, meds, etc) into the most marketable pounds. 
Having this information for a commercial operation is much more important than which doe is having the kids with the best conformation/ show traits. 
Not to say that mothering ability and such aren't important, I wouldn't want to have to bottle feed a kid that was going to end up on the kill floor at the local slaughterhouse. That's why I agree that the first couple of years you should cull hard.


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## 7SRanch (Apr 15, 2012)

One thing I would advise that has been a tremendous help for me is to find someone in your area that has experience with goats, someone you can call with questions, who would be willing to be a mentor of sorts.
Learn from them all you can about goat husbandry. 
Then do what packhillboers said and go apply it.


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## bbellhbl (Aug 1, 2013)

You might find this interesting to help with record keeping and selecting "keepers".
http://www.tnstate.edu/faculty/rbrowning/documents/TSU%20Performance%20Fact%20Sheet%20col.pdf


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