# Bottle-buck as herd sire; yay or nay?



## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

Hello, I am just getting my herd established, and am looking at buying a boer buck for fall breeding. I have a chance to get a buck kid, but he is the result of a traumatic birthing resulting in the dam's death, leaving him and his brother orphaned. The boy who owns him is bottle feeding him after a failed attempt at using a foster-doe. I believe the genetics are pretty good, but have always felt nutrition was a big deal. Should I steer clear of this buck since he's bottle-fed, or do genetics play a big enough role that his early nutrition won't matter?
ALSO, my husband feels $400 is too much for a bottle-raised kid, as bottle-raised animals don't grow as well, in his experience. Also, what WOULD be a fair price for a well bred (tons of ennoblements in his pedigree) bottle-buck?
(A little background on us, so you know where we stand in the knowledge of animals department: My husband was born and raised on farm. He was active in 4-H and FFA. His family raised hogs farrow to finish, and registered simmental cattle. Gre, my husband, and his 4 brothers showed hogs and sheep in 4-H and FFA, but never had goats. 
I was born and raised NOT on a farm; I LOVE goats!
Greg and I have been married 17 years this May, and have two kids ages 12 and 9. This is our son's 4th year in 4-H and our daughter's first. We do NOT show sheep, but we do show hogs and goats. Thus the reason I have started my own boer herd.)


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I personally don't like determining if a kid is breeding quality at that young age. 

Bottle raised goats also can be very pushy with humans when they reach maturity. You can be firm through out the raising process but I feel the dam-raised temperament is more well suited for safety around the large horned bucks.

I really am biased though! I much prefer to buy an proven adult buck so I can see how he turned out/grew and what type of kids he produces - I just don't like the risk of young bucklings and feel that far too many are registered and sold for breeding when many belong in a freezer.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I LOVE, I can not put enough stress on the love part, my bottle baby sire. I was the same as you kinda going back and forth because I figured he would end up being a little turd. 
He did go threw a spell where he challenged me. But the whole story on that was a friend wanted to use him as a buddy for her young buck and I figured why not? Free feeding? I honestly think she let him get away with way more then I allowed. I was very strict on the little guy. There was no jumping no playing nothing, I was queen bee and I wanted that threw his head. It wasn’t even a week after I got him back that he challenged me. I got the hot shot and nailed him and he has been the best buck in the world! 
It totally depends on how he is being fed on how he grows. For mine, and a good amount of other kids they grew great. Gizmo, bottle baby buck had the highest ADG of all the kids that year. Most of the kids that did cruddy were raised on replacer, the whole milk kids did the best. But even then they grew up to be no better no worse then the others. Same as my calfs which always gets replacer.
$400 for a baby that YOU have to bottle feed is high. If it’s $400 at weaning I don’t think that’s bad. A buck at market will bring between $150-200 so figure in papers, the fact that you know where he comes from and how he was raised, if there was any testing done, the fact they are not walking chlamydia because they stepped foot in the sale yard yeah I think $400 isn’t bad. 
A friend kept track of how much it cost to raise a bottle baby and milk alone she said she spent $150. That’s from birth to 3 months old and not including Hay and grain. So let’s just keep it at $150 and assume she paid a lot for the milk, in the end you are paying $550 for a weanling buck if your going to be feeding him. 
Oh! Back to the genetics and feeding lol sorry scatter brain today. Even if he is not fed that great and he does grow slowly because of it, he still has those genetics! I bought a half starved buck, he was terrible looking! But I took the chance and got him and the kids that guy throw OMG! He came out of his ugly smallness but I believe he was still not as good looking as he probably would have been with better feed but he was a ok looking buck with me and threw fantastic kids! 
One thing that I will stress if you do go with him. He is going to get big, he is going to at one time or another only have breeding on his brain, nip every single issue you see while he is small and you can. I have no doubt if I let gizmo get away with his crap that day he would have been the biggest jerk. But now he’s not he is the sweetest loving guy ever


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

Oh! Back to the genetics and feeding lol sorry scatter brain today. Even if he is not fed that great and he does grow slowly because of it, he still has those genetics! I bought a half starved buck, he was terrible looking! But I took the chance and got him and the kids that guy throw OMG! He came out of his ugly smallness but I believe he was still not as good looking as he probably would have been with better feed but he was a ok looking buck with me and threw fantastic kids!
One thing that I will stress if you do go with him. He is going to get big, he is going to at one time or another only have breeding on his brain, nip every single issue you see while he is small and you can. I have no doubt if I let gizmo get away with his crap that day he would have been the biggest jerk. But now he's not he is the sweetest loving guy ever[/QUOTE]

I looked at the website for the farm where this buck's sire came from, and I have seen some of the goats they raise, in person. While I wasn't crazy about the photos I saw of the actual sire, I can't ignore the rest of his lineage. I'm pretty certain(I don't have access to the picture of the papers right now) that the buck on the home-page is the grand-sire of the little buck I'm looking at.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

In my 35 + years of goats, standards, dairy, Boers, Nigerians and Pygmies, I'd say that 98% of my herd sires have been bottle kids. I have never had one be a problem due to lack of manners. I teach them that from day 1. I usually buy them (if not homegrown) at less than a week of age, so I can train them as early as possible.

My bottle kids grow just as well, if not better, than dam raised because I can medicate/supplement in their bottles rather than fight them (cocci prevention,vitamins/minerals, herbs, dewormers etc). I offer them a 20 ounce bottle 4 times a day, they eat what they want up to that amount. Never had overeating, Floppy kid or scours issues either. As with the dam raised, they have access to feed from 1 week of age on via a creep feeder.

When choosing a new weaned or older goat, I go more by health, genetics, parents production and conformation, whether they were raised pasteurized with cocci prevention protocol and type more than I do if they were bottle or dam raised.

For the record, I find bottle raised does to be more of an obnoxious pain than bottle raised bucks. lol


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh my gosh!! Yes on the does! Now I’ve only had the one buck on a bottle but I don’t remember him being near as bad as ANY of these doe kids on the annoying scale! He was a total mammas boy don’t get me wrong but I just remember him always following me around, never the blood curdling screaming when he saw me or constant butting me in the crotch! 
Make sure you look into more then just sire and grand sire. Keep in mind that even though you really like the grandsire the sire is only half him. This little guy is only 1/4 of him. Look into dams and grand dams as well. Also him himself. Let’s assume he’s not gaining great because he’s being bottle fed, he should still show a great conformation. Really your not getting any kind of deal here for him being a bottle kid so I would look at him like any other buckling your thinking about buying. He’s GOING to be half your kid crop so if your not thrilled with him then pass. I just wouldn’t let the fact that he’s a bottle kid keep you from buying him if you do like him


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All good advice.

I answered in the other thread message you made.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> All good advice.
> 
> I answered in the other thread message you made.


How does that message thing happen? I seriously thought TGS app was loosing it, or I was lol I never even knew this could be done!


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

SalteyLove said:


> I personally don't like determining if a kid is breeding quality at that young age.
> 
> Bottle raised goats also can be very pushy with humans when they reach maturity. You can be firm through out the raising process but I feel the dam-raised temperament is more well suited for safety around the large horned bucks.
> 
> I really am biased though! I much prefer to buy an proven adult buck so I can see how he turned out/grew and what type of kids he produces - I just don't like the risk of young bucklings and feel that far too many are registered and sold for breeding when many belong in a freezer.


I'm on a bit of a shoestring budget, and have champagne tastes, so I'm afraid I am going to have to bite the bullet and buy an unproven buck. I would definitely prefer to buy a proven breeder though.


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

Jessica84 said:


> How does that message thing happen? I seriously thought TGS app was loosing it, or I was lol I never even knew this could be done!


I am SO new that I couldn't figure out how to start a new thread. I somehow ended up creating a "conversation" then it told me I had to add people so I just started adding people who had been members for a while. Ha ha!


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> All good advice.
> 
> I answered in the other thread message you made.


Thank you!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Crazy Little Goat said:


> I'm on a bit of a shoestring budget, and have champagne tastes, so I'm afraid I am going to have to bite the bullet and buy an unproven buck. I would definitely prefer to buy a proven breeder though.


lol I love it! I'm gonna have to use that one! I usually just say I have better taste then I do money lol 
And I was just curious on the message thing, I didn't even know that could be done but that was the second time I've seen it so just curious


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Jessica84 said:


> How does that message thing happen? I seriously thought TGS app was loosing it, or I was lol I never even knew this could be done!


 If you go to message someone, there is an option at the bottom, if you do not want others to reply to it or would like anyone to reply.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If the kid is 1 month old now, get pics of him, front, back, side and weight.

At that age, I evaluate them from top to bottom. Ask for teat structure, bite, scrotum. I kinda know where they are going by that age. 
Every once in a while, 1 may change in appearance, not for the good. 
At 3 month old, is the best age to really know, but we want to put down deposits and sometimes take a risk.
Also ask for the Sire and Dam's pics as well.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> If the kid is 1 month old now, get pics of him, front, back, side and weight.
> 
> At that age, I evaluate them from top to bottom. Ask for teat structure, bite, scrotum. I kinda know where they are going by that age.
> Every once in a while, 1 may change in appearance, not for the good.
> ...


100% fully agree!!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thanks.


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> If the kid is 1 month old now, get pics of him, front, back, side and weight.
> 
> At that age, I evaluate them from top to bottom. Ask for teat structure, bite, scrotum. I kinda know where they are going by that age.
> Every once in a while, 1 may change in appearance, not for the good.
> ...


These are the pictures I have so far. I'm waiting to hear back on the questions you all said to ask.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Not a bad looking kid. 

Hope he will have more length to him, when he is a bit older.

Getting pic's at 1 month old will tell you more, he is quite young yet to evaluate.


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

I’m curious as to what you decided regarding this cute lil buckling? I’m not a Boer goat person (I raise dairy goats) but he look pretty nice! The main thing he seems to lack is length, but of course he’s very young yet...


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

He doesn't look too bad, but not sure about the price. That seems like a lot considering you said his sire wasn't very impressive. I don't look at papers first, I look at parents. You could probably find a nice weaned buck for the price of the bottle baby + milk $$ you would spend raising him. 

However, if you truly want to raise a bottle baby, then I say do what you think is best for your situation. I myself prefer to see them when they are weaned. Bucks define your herd, so I would go with the best you can find/afford, and again IMO papers should be the 2nd important thing, because good genetics on paper don't guarantee good goats.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

That is the way I look at it too. 
Papers mean nothing if the goat doesn't match a good pedigree.


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

Goat_Scout said:


> I'm curious as to what you decided regarding this cute lil buckling? I'm not a Boer goat person (I raise dairy goats) but he look pretty nice! The main thing he seems to lack is length, but of course he's very young yet...


I am pretty sure I am going to get him. Fortunately, I didn't have to buy him and raise him as a bottle kid. The boy who has him is raising him to weaning.


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

HoosierShadow said:


> He doesn't look too bad, but not sure about the price. That seems like a lot considering you said his sire wasn't very impressive. I don't look at papers first, I look at parents. You could probably find a nice weaned buck for the price of the bottle baby + milk $$ you would spend raising him.
> 
> However, if you truly want to raise a bottle baby, then I say do what you think is best for your situation. I myself prefer to see them when they are weaned. Bucks define your herd, so I would go with the best you can find/afford, and again IMO papers should be the 2nd important thing, because good genetics on paper don't guarantee good goats.


Fortunately for me, I don't have to bottle feed him. The boy who has him, is raising him to weaning. I will try to post the sire's picture when I get home tonight, so maybe y'all can give me your thoughts on him too.


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

Here are pictures of the dam and sire, and the little guy @ 4 weeks


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Looks like a keeper to me.


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> Looks like a keeper to me.


Thank you for your opinion! I truly appreciate the help!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You bet.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Crazy Little Goat, in a cattleman's term the bull is half your herd. Same applies with the goats. I know how you feel on the expense because I have the champagne taste with a beer budget. I am doing the same thing you are considering doing. Buying a buckling instead of a proven breeder. I have checked the pedigree of the buckling both top and bottom, plus visited the owners and saw the sire. Mama died giving birth to the buckling and doeling this year. She was a top milk producer and a big doe with excellent bloodlines. Saying this I don't have problem with the buckling being bottle fed. He is handled a lot in so doing. I have wanted to improve my herd and by buying a top bred billy is the easiest way to start. So I wish you good luck and hope you get what you want in a buck.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh gosh I don’t think I will ever buy a “proven” buck again. I never really wanted to just because I was so worried about STDs but then, of course, I had to buy this last buck. He was never put in his place flexing his muscles and we have gone rounds the last 7 months and he is just now figuring out I am the smallest and baddest not him.
But I hope this little guy does great for you! Money has always been a huge factor for me too but slowly getting better and better bucks and getting better and better offspring has been very rewarding for me......very long way of doing so but still


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

UPDATE: I FINALLY get to go pick my little guy up on Saturday!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Congrats!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

YAY~!


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

Well, we didn't end up getting him after all. He didn't move freely and was short-coupled. It's a shame, but when it came down to it, he just didn't make my heart beat faster. Ha ha!!


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

What does short coupled mean?


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

nicolemackenzie said:


> What does short coupled mean?


Sorry, not sure what the technical term is for goats, but I mean he isn't long bodied; has a short back.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I can understand.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I’m sorry it didn’t work out. But good call! I’ll buy ok does as long as the price is right but I’m a very firm believer to always get the closest to perfect you can afford. This wasn’t meant to be so the joy of hunting goes on


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

I have a lead on a great little buck, but he may have to be used to replace a kid that presented with polio.
Should I be concerned about buying him, if he isn't needed as a fair wether? 
How contagious is polio, and how soon would one know if their goat had it?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Polio is more of a management issue then a disease. I’ve had Goats for 9 years now, run roughly 70 does a year and have only had it twice, in the same goat. The first time she got a little mold the second time was after I wormed her. She ran in the group with everyone and she has been my only problem child.


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

Jessica84 said:


> Polio is more of a management issue then a disease. I've had Goats for 9 years now, run roughly 70 does a year and have only had it twice, in the same goat. The first time she got a little mold the second time was after I wormed her. She ran in the group with everyone and she has been my only problem child.


Thank you!


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## Miller'sLostGoat (Apr 26, 2018)

Polio is normally an individual issue, rather then a herd issue. I personally prefer young bucks, I have a 6 month old boer buckling in with my yearling does now. I like to try and sell them after the season. Buy the best buck you can afford. However be realistic with your budget. I never buy an animal I can not afford to cull the next year. The buck 50% of your genetics, that being said, I try to buy a new buck every couple years.


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

New question: The little buck I was most recently talking about getting ended up having a hernia. The breeder found the hernia the day I was supposed to go look at/buy him when she was clipping him. Their vet recommended surgery, so I believe she will be having that done soon. My question is: If I still have the option to buy him, should I? Are hernias hereditary? I know for our mare, we were told not to ever breed her because of her hernia, but I had the feeling it was more of a precautionary measure for HER well-being.
Thanks,
Alisha


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## Miller'sLostGoat (Apr 26, 2018)

What kind of hernia is it? Personally, unless your getting a great deal on this goat, I would not buy him. Seems like this goat may end up being more trouble then he will be worth.


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

Miller'sLostGoat said:


> What kind of hernia is it? Personally, unless your getting a great deal on this goat, I would not buy him. Seems like this goat may end up being more trouble then he will be worth.


Given its location, my guess is an umbilical hernia.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think it can be hereditary. We had a stud horse and bred him to 7 mares, 3 ended up having umbilical hernias, we cut him after that. It just wasn’t worth the chance of having more. I personally would think along the same lines with a buck. It could be just him, I lost a doe to a hernia that I’m pretty sure she got hooked by another goat nothing to do with her, so I mean something like that could have been what is up with him but I still would pas


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## Elyse Markham (Jun 2, 2018)

I have a Bottle baby sire, actually 2 of them, one Nubian and one Toggenburg. The Nubian buck is probably pushing 200 lbs or more, he is super gentle the only thing is that he pushes sometimes a little too hard and goes for things that he wants, like in the chicken coop. Now the Toggenburg has been a joy he is loveable and a push over and will do almost anything you would like except for if water is envolved, then he tends to be a little more aggressive. I would say you will bond better with them and be easier to give meds and what not. Just my thoughts  He is beautiful!


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