# Newbie here with an observation



## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

Ok, I understand wanting dairy girls to a little down hill (personally I like level), but, some I have seen that people are oohing and aahing over look like the back half belongs to a much smaller doe than the front half. Please someone explain to me why that is good. In the horse showing industry everyone liked tiny feet on these big quarter horses, bred them that way until their hooves could no longer stay sound, I just hope that does not happen in the goat industry. Guess this was a small rant and I hope someone can explain why they like that, must be informed!


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm curious about the origins of the correct show conformation, too. One of my does has a nice show-quality udder and I find her harder to milk than one of my other does who has what I believe to be a less-than-ideal show udder. 

Everything in the goat world is so practical there's got to be a purpose behind the show-goat shape.


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

following!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I have made the same rant before... Comparing them to what they did to German Shepherds. Some of the show world fads do get to the ridiculous side of things.


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

Oh thank you! I was worried I had just made a complete fool of myself. Well I don't show, but I do want my herd to have good conformation, however I think I will aim for a nice level topline, good udder and attachments and straight legs and nice hooves... That ought to keep me busy!


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Yeah some people just think it looks more showy.

I personally do show and want to breed a champion. But I also want a doe that's going to live to be 16 and still sound. So I may never be at the very top of the line... But it's fun


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

My misunderstanding is:

Pasterns.
I don't understand why goat pasterns should be as short and upright as possible. I mean, think about it...it makes it hard to walk 

But, I do get that they shouldn't be super long and so angled that the goat is walking on their ankles.

But there should be a happy medium


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

CPK, If a goat's pasterns are short, upright and strong they are going to hold up longer. The longer and weaker they are the quicker they will break down giving the goat less support and making it harder to walk. A lot of a goat's conformation has to do with a long productive life.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

ShireRidgeFarm said:


> I'm curious about the origins of the correct show conformation, too. One of my does has a nice show-quality udder and I find her harder to milk than one of my other does who has what I believe to be a less-than-ideal show udder.
> 
> Everything in the goat world is so practical there's got to be a purpose behind the show-goat shape.


There is a purpose in the show-goat shape. 
As I said in my previous post, a lot of the scorecard is based on the goat's ability to have a long and productive life. A few things on the scorecard may seem a little ridiculous but if you think about it, pretty much everything that the ADGA judges are looking for in the show ring contribute to the goat's ability to have along and productive life. Strength of feet and legs, udder attachments, brisket, depth of barrel, body capacity, head and nostrils, dairy character etc.
ADGA didn't just decide to put random things on the scorecard.


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## grindylo (May 15, 2014)

I was wondering this, too. To me it seems like, if not straight, a higher back end would be better. Then large udders might not hang as low as otherwise. Wouldn't want it to make walking weird though, so flat on top seems best.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Margaret, I get that, but I have seen pasterns so straight that there is absolutely NO bend there...that I don't understand.

I do get that shorter, less angled pasterns are better. But IMO super short or super straight are no good either.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

To the original question, we aren't looking for hind quarters that are so much shorter/smaller than the front end that it looks like they belong to another goat; that's not what we're after. If their rear end is noticeably smaller than their front end, they are out of proportion. 
Overall we want balance. As far as upstanding stature, we just want a little more height at the withers, a straight and strong topline, and a more level angle to the rump. The idea behind it all is that with the slight amount of height added to the front end it will take some pressure off the heart and lungs, and the elevation helps with after kidding clean out-- a more level rump also helps them to clean out quicker. 
I know an almost 14 year old doe that is built like the above, she is CAE+, still healthy as a horse and kidded with twin bucks this year.

If you think about it, horses aren't flat as a board from the withers to tail head either, they are slightly elevated at the withers as well.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You are all talking about extremes now. 
Super short super straight pasterns are as bad in their own way as long weak pasterns... Note that there is a big difference between weak pasterns and long pasterns. The pasterns are the shock absorber of the leg and hoof, too short, and they produce a short choppy stride that is hard on the body and breaks down the joints of the legs. I've trimmed enough herds for people to know that the pastern and hoof confirmation between African goats and Swiss goats is very different as well. They need trimmed completely differently to be correct. 

The super super flat rump that brings the tail-head above the hips moves the pin bones up and creates kidding problems from the smaller space created. It also weakens the fore udder from the angle created. 

High withers are different from short hind legs... I've seen both. Actually to balance correctly the legs should be the same length with the back straight and the withers higher than the loin but, not the chine higher than the loin. 

Tempering fads with good judgement is always the best idea...


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Jill hit the nail on the head and I just wanted to clarify my rump statement I posted earlier. By "more level rump" I'm not talking about balancing a wine glass on their rump, too level is not good. No extremes should ever be someones ideal. I don't want to see 45 degree rump angles and I don't want to see 0 degree rump angles, 25-30 is just perfect.
With a too upright pastern they have a jarring impact on the joint with every step they take, too short and upright gives the joint no cushion or flex.

Just my 2 cents anyway, breed for whatever you want, just keep the goats health as priority. I'm well aware that mine aren't perfect, they couldn't survive in the woods or a browse only environment. They'd rip their udders, they'd get mastitis, probably bloat on something and get sick, lose a ton of weight and probably, most likely, die without the management they require; Jills goats on the other hand, would be fine :lol:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah, right up until the rains hit, then the weight melts off them and the hooves grow all directions :lol:
Adding Dexter should increase the hardiness factor by quite a bit ray:
Plus I did a big culling this last year...

Don't ever raise Saanens on the north coast


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

Thanks everyone for interesting discussion, I learned a lot. Glad to know that the Alpine I saw was not correct, even though there was so much praise for her, she was pretty but her rear end was way lower than her front in and she was standing straight. It looked really odd to me.


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## epayne (Jul 22, 2015)

I think what you're seeing on show goats that make them seem to have a back much lower then their front is that the person showing them is lightly pinching/tickling/scratching the goats back right in front of the hip bones which causes the goat to squat a little. Many people do this because it can make the goat seem more level then it actually is and it has become the basic show stance since it is a little showier and is part of showing the goat to its best abilities. With milking does it also can be helpful if the doe doesn't have much height to the rear udder because it helps show the quarters of the udder the judge is looking for (a quarter seen in front of the leg, a quarter hidden behind the leg, and a quarter shown behind the leg). I don't know any goats who are actually much lower in the back like you are describing unless they are set up this way. For a newbie it can look weird at first no matter what. But if you see a goat that is super low like that its the fault of the handler for not paying attention to how much they have tickled the goats back down because the goat isn't supposed to be super low but to have the appearance of a flatter topline and a slight incline from rump up to withers. This is why is is important for judges to see the animal on the move as well because that is a better indication of the levelness of the goat. I hope this helped!

Edit: I forgot to mention that setting a goat up like this is also helpful for showing off the angulation to the rear legs. Or if you have a posty legged goat, hiding that! (I had one beautiful lamancha that was very posty and I think she only did so well in the ring because I was skilled at hiding it when I could lol)


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

That I understand, but this girl was standing straight, not squatting at all. She wasn't a little down hill, she was way down hill.


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