# Maybe Double Bred??



## orthis (Mar 24, 2014)

I'm not sure where to place this question because of the uniqueness. Jill is in her second year and she is a beautiful blue eyed twin herself. Last year she ha twins and one was tiny, we rushed it to the vet and they said she had been double bred and the tiny one was early about 3 weeks. It didn't survive the night. The other one lived and unfortunately had a miscarriage this year.

Jill had a beautiful girl for us about 72 hours ago, but wouldn't let the baby nurse or anything. We brought Jill and Speck in last night and put them in a small cage to encourage bonding and feeding. This morning it looks like Jill may be in labor. The birth of Speck was good without issue, but she now has a strand of mucus coming out and she appears to be contracting in spasms, but not squatting. She is urinating correctly and bowels emptied completely overnight, but not runny at all.

Is it possible she is double bred again? Is that the reason she won't feed her new baby? I have several goats in milk and I also got a good amount from Jill and Speck is doing great. If there is another baby how will it survive without the colostrum? Will she make more since they are out of sync?

Thanks,

Leona


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Double bred is an extremely rare occurrence. I'd be questioning my vet on that one. Goats often have an extremely small baby or a not completely formed one....that is just normal. If she is acting like she is in labor 72 hours after having kidded....you need to check and see if there is another one in there. At this stage, I'd doubt you have a live kid if there is another one. Did she pass the afterbirth after Speck? A vet would be an excellent idea at this point.....


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

It's possible she has a stuck kid, or is trying to pass the placenta. Don't pull out the placenta but I would check for a stuck kid.

Double bred is possible, but very rare. If she's not nursing her babe you need to make sure he gets colostrum and milk regularly.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If unsure go in or have someone knowledgeable do it.
We are not there to see her.

Some Does need to be taught to take care of their babies.
Tie her up and make her feed her baby. tie up her back leg or hold it up so her kid can nurse and see cannot kick..

If you are not sure about what is happening and what to feel for. Please get a vet or another knowledgeable goat breeder there.

She may be simply trying to pass her after birth. DO you see any little red bead things hanging there?
If she is contracting bad, there may be a stuck kid that needs to come out, if there is, she will die if she gets no help.
Double Bred is rare. 

Does can have a small, small kid and 2 normal size, it only means, the other 2 received all the nutrients and the small one short of starved within sort to speak. 
It can happen. It does not mean double bred.

Can you get a pic of her rear and what is going on?


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## orthis (Mar 24, 2014)

she seems to no longer be active contracting and her rear end is not engorged around the vulva like you normally have with a delivery. Maybe she just had some slow to finish up placenta. My husband will do a good check on her to make sure there isn't a kid still in there. He was just hoping he wouldn't have to do that.

Earlier I saw the baby get a few sips so she may be coming around. She seems to be presenting and the baby is punching but when the baby tries to latch Jill walks off. We are going to try to milk a little out of her before we check her. We are syringe feeding the baby and it is passing urine really well. I haven't seen it pass pellets yet, but that doesn't mean she isn't.

I will keep you posted.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

nursing will also bring on contractions. My doe scared me with strong afterbirth contractions but ended up being just fine. I would bump for kids to be safe, but if she's acting normal she is probably okay.


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## orthis (Mar 24, 2014)

we got a good amount of milk out of her so maybe that will take some pressure off and the little one can practice latching on. If not we should have enough to get through for a bit on the syringe feeding. 

We did a good amount of feeling and thumping and she doesn't have any other babies in there and no lumps either (in case there was a fetus just not moving). Her vulva is completely back down to normal as well. We will monitor her and hope Speck will get the hang of nursing. Jill has become pretty protective of Speck which is great. I would much rather have a protective mom than a lax one. 

Tomorrow we will go check on the twins we had yesterday. One looked like it was having a tough time keeping up but it could have just been because it was so new. We had 7 kids in less than a week and only lost one so I feel pretty good about that.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes, relieving some pressure will allow her to let the kids nurse, it hurts and she won't want the kids to touch them.

I would put her and her kids in a bonding stall all by themselves, until they bond, and the kids are nursing really well, it isn't good she is walking off when they are just born.

Hold the Doe and teach the kid to latch on. Open the mouth, squirt some milk from momma's teat into kids mouth, release the kid, repeat until the kid wants to search for the teat, when this happens, lightly coax the kid in the right direction, hold the teat forward or whatever position for the kid to find it easier. Tickle the tailhead of the kid to stimulate them to nurse. And search for the teat.

I would go out every couple of hours and help the kids to the teat, to ensure they are getting enough and to learning to nurse.
Monitor their belly's, is it full or empty?

Night time cold weather is hard on them, if they are not getting enough milk. They can go sub temp real quick. So going out during the night is wise.

Dip the babies cords in iodine. 

Glad momma is OK, did she drop all her afterbirth?

She will clean out for 2 weeks or so.

You are very busy. Congrats.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Make sure the kids pass the meconium and are pooping. A constipated kid is as good as a dead kid because they will nto eat. That have to get that first black, sticky, tarry stuff out.

Different sized kids is very common. It does not mean they were double bred, that is so rare. One kid will either be stronger and get more nourishment while developing or one will not attach properly and not get what it needs to really grow. 

I only breed my does once when they are in heat so there is absloutely no chance of them being "double bred". Most births have one bigger and one smaller. Some of the smallers ones are only marginally smaller, while others are very, very small and not as strong and developed. Not younger by 3 weeks, just didn't develop like the twin did.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes, I forgot to mention that about the kids first poo, it is black and you should see this soon, if not, giving and enema helps.
With a small syringe, you can use warm water only, if you wish, then very slowly plunge some up there, all you have to do is, put the tip up to the bum, you don't have to insert very far, just the tip if anything, be gentle, do this a few times until the kid has the urge to push(Poo).
New babies will have soft messy meconium at first, then it chances to light yellow, it won't be pellets, it will be baby poo, soft and pasty.

You don't want scours wet and runny. Tooth paste like or a bit firmer is OK.


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## orthis (Mar 24, 2014)

I am checking on Speck often and feeling of her tummy. When she feels empty I take her to Jill and squirt a little milk on her mouth. Jill is being good about it but only for a second or two. Speck has walked up and is punching the bag but not really trying to suck. Of course she may be drinking a little when I'm not out there...sneaky critter. If I go our the second time and she is feeling empty then I give her a couple syringes of milk. How should I save the extra milk that I get? Do I put it in the fridge and warm it before feeding or just keep it at room temperature? It seems at room temp it would spoil.

She is healthy but just not drinking from her mother directly. Jill stays close to the baby but isn't very loving or attentive. I am bringing them in the garage again tonight and putting them in the little pen in hopes that they will bond more. I will also keep an eye out for Speck producing poop and hope to not have to do an enema on her.

Thanks for all of your help.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

orthis said:


> I am checking on Speck often and feeling of her tummy. When she feels empty I take her to Jill and squirt a little milk on her mouth. Jill is being good about it but only for a second or two. Speck has walked up and is punching the bag but not really trying to suck. Of course she may be drinking a little when I'm not out there...sneaky critter. If I go our the second time and she is feeling empty then I give her a couple syringes of milk. How should I save the extra milk that I get? Do I put it in the fridge and warm it before feeding or just keep it at room temperature? It seems at room temp it would spoil.
> 
> She is healthy but just not drinking from her mother directly. Jill stays close to the baby but isn't very loving or attentive. I am bringing them in the garage again tonight and putting them in the little pen in hopes that they will bond more. I will also keep an eye out for Speck producing poop and hope to not have to do an enema on her.
> 
> Thanks for all of your help.


 Make sure the kids nurse until they want to stop, being that young they need it. A couple of squirts are not enough. Hold momma and make her be a momma.

If the other kid is bumping her udder, the baby is hungry, they don't do that when they are satisfied, the kid doesn't know where the teat is, show and guide the baby, teach.

With the milk storage, if it is a few days, you can refrigerate it.
But do not use the microwave to warm up, use a pan in a pan so it doesn't get too hot, feel it with your wrist. Not too hot or too cold. Don't let it boil. If you are wanting to save more than that, freezing it would be best.

Momma should be left in a bonding pen 24/7, until she does bond and love them. Then they can be let out. 
Give it a week, unless she is mean to them. If she is mean, bottle feed that kid, keep that kid separate from her or she may kill it when you are not looking. 
After a week and she does not accept them or even one of them and still doesn't want to feed them naturally, you unfortunately have bottle babies. 
Giving very small amounts all the time, isn't good on them, bottle feeding in between, in case, if after bonding with momma does not work, they will be trained on the bottle.

Constance teaching both momma and kid, every 2 hours or so, the better the chances. Tie momma's head and her back leg and get the kids to nurse. With time, momma and babies may bond. But be aware, some never will. You will know within 1 week, unless she is mean, then you will know right then. 

Good luck.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I thot there was only the one kid?


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

One kid in question from the original post But I think she had many others delivered in the same week


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yep, she did. She is busy.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Ok...I was confused! LOL I often don't connect one thread to another unless I pay specific attention to WHO posted what! Sorry bout that...


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## orthis (Mar 24, 2014)

We took Speck and Jill back to the ranch on Wednesday and she is
doing well. Now she has lots of something in her ears and a snotty
nose. It looks like white ticks. We cleaned them up and I swabbed her
with antibiotics. I will treat her again in a day or two with mineral 
oil unless I find something better. 

I am going to have to keep a close eye on her.


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