# Disbudding Question



## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

I was just flipping through a book I bought called The Goatkeeper's Veterinary Book by Peter Dunn. In the section on how to disbud, the author talked about a handful of different anesthetics to use prior to disbudding. I am going to be doing my first disbuddings myself in a few months and I never heard of people using anesthesia on their kids for this. I'm going to just be using a kid box and a disbudding iron. Anyone in here use anesthesia on their kids when disbudding? It was a British book...maybe they do things a bit different over across the pond?


----------



## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

Full on anesthesia? Or did they mean a numbing agent? I have only ever had one doeling born here so far, and hired a guy to disbud her. I went down about 2 minutes after he was done and she was a little bummed out. 15 mins later she was bounding around like normal. I think its way harder for animals to be sedated then its worth for disbudding. A general anesthesia doesn't really numb their bodies to whats happening, they are just paralytics with amnesiatic properties, so they just can't move and when it wears off they don't remember what happened.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You would have to go to the vet to get anesthesia and they won't just give it you, they would have to administer it.

I do give a shot of Banamine about 1/2 hour before disbudding. Banamine is a pain reliever/anti-inflammatory.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

we began giving a quick spray of apple cider vinegar right after burning...my daughter to who does the disbudding is still amazed how quickly the babies go from crying or showing pain to playful. she said its a miracle and makes she feel better when they don't act like she just killed them : ) We do how ever give 2 cc Tetanus antitoxin shot and shave the ares to be burned

I think I would like to try the banamine though..; )


----------



## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Ksalvagno, that makes sense. I think the Banamine is definitely a good idea. I have used that before for various things over the years. I think goat ownership in Britain carries with it much more stringent regulations from what I gather. A lot of simple operations are talked about in the book in reference to a vet doing it, like disbudding, which is probably the reason anesthesia is mentioned, since it describes it being done with a vet. One section of the book even mentioned how in the UK all goatkeepers are required by law to have a copy of the "Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Goats". Proud to be an American is all I can say. No offense to our British friends. 

And Audrey. Ya pretty much. The methods the book mentions are actually by mask, secondly a painkiller in conjunction with local anesthesia, or thirdly an IM injection. Like I said....never heard of doing all that jazz before. I do like the Banamine idea though. Any other comments are welcome. Thanks.


----------



## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Huh, 2cc's of Tetanus antitoxin. Interesting. That's something to think about. Thanks Happybleats.


----------



## kristinatucker (Jan 3, 2012)

We do not give anything before disbudding as far as pain managment goes but benamine is an option. For us all the goats are back up and running as soon as you let them out of the box, no worse for ware. We were able to get lidocaine from our vet just in case we have a situation where we might need it.


----------



## mtmom75 (May 19, 2011)

I give them a couple cc's of Ow-Eez from Molly's Herbals about a half hour before I disbud them. I don't know if it helps, but it seems to make them really calm. Probably because it's mostly alcohol lol. 

I know one farm that uses general anesthesia for all their disbudding (and they tattoo them at the same time). They have enough experience with it that they're able to do it without a vet. I personally think they bounce back so quick after a normal disbudding, the anesthesia doesn't seem necessary. In fact, I think anesthesia would just make the process more difficult for them.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I think that disbudding is actually illegal in Britain now...

I had a vet one time give shots under the horn buds to disbud a kid. The shots were extremely painful to him and made him feel bad. You could see by his eyes that he just felt horrible. After all that he still yelled when being done and it took him much longer then normal to recover. 
The vet I use now doesn't use anything at all. He burns quickly and cools the burns with ice water. The baby goats jump right back up and are completely normal by the time I get them home to mom.


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Since we raise Boers they are only disbudded on request. We just shave the horn area, do the deed & spray FighBac on the buds. It cools it down. They run to mom for a meal & are fine.


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

How come? Disbudding is part of raising goats; some breeds more than others.


----------



## abbeynorml (Feb 25, 2013)

nancy d said:


> Since we raise Boers they are only disbudded on request.


Is there a reason some are disbudded more (or less) than others? My Dad used to poll all of his dairy kids, that is nubians, alpines, etc., and my plan is to poll all of our Boer and TexMaster kids, as well. Is there a reason we shouldn't, or that it should be different between breeds/types?
~Anna Beth


----------



## julieq (Feb 25, 2013)

We disbud all our kids, bucklings usually a bit earlier than the doelings as their little horn buds pop up faster. Only takes a few seconds, then we put an ice pack on for a bit and let them go. They're running and playing again in no time flat! 

Sometimes I think tattooing them actually hurts a bit more.


----------



## mtmom75 (May 19, 2011)

S+S Homestead said:


> Why would you want to tattoo them? Why put any animal through unnecessary pain? What am I missing?


 Registered goats (at least with ADGA and AGS, which I'm familiar with) have to be tattooed for identification purposes. They can't be registered if they're not.


----------



## mtmom75 (May 19, 2011)

Alrighty then, I think I better leave this conversation before my big mouth gets me into trouble lol.


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Disbudding & tattooing only last a few seconds. It all depends on what you want to do with your herd.
All mine are registered. I love to show. So my kids get tattooed. 
We all just love to do this dont you know.
We even vac them as necessary
And bring them to a stand for hoof trimming.
Or having to go in a doe to bring out a stuck kid because if we didnt, doe would die.
Then having to give her antibiotics oh my!


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

You are correct about disbudding & tattooing not being part of a healthy herd.
But in many dairy herds disbudding is necessary. Tats are required for showing.


----------



## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

S+S Homestead said:


> Exactly why do dairy goats need to be dehorned? I can milk my goats just fine with horns intact.


To answer: goats do not HAVE to be dehorned. Nobody should ever be turned away from a Registered animal because of the cares that go into them. Legally in Wisconsin we are required to tattoo and keep records on any goat born on the farm. Especially if they leave the farm. I don't object to tattooing as I have tattoos and my boyfriend also does. Didn't really hurt that bad. Lol

I dehorn/disbud all my horned animals (cattle and goats). Even if i purchase a new doe with horns she is immediately dehorned within two weeks of arrival. I also declaw my cats lol. As for a personal choice, there is no right or wrong at any way of raising a healthy animal.

My personal reasons for dehorning:
-Safety of children that come into the farm.
-Safety of the other goats (have seen personally a goat have her eye gouged out by a buck's horn while courting)
-Safety of the handler on the farm
-Prevention of heads being stuck in the fences (saves us big money on purchasing fencing not having to worry about horns too!)
-Higher demand for no-horns
-Required in shows in my area
-Prevention from learning "bad" or "rude" habits with the horns such as head butting children, or the kids knocking on the horns encouraging them.

Not saying it is something that everyone does, just saying why we do it. It's not necessary, but we choose to dehorn/disbud to make a higher long term profit in our area, as well as make cares as simple and worry free as we can. It really depends on your situation and your preferences.


----------



## ogfabby (Jan 3, 2013)

I have both horned and dehorned goats. Tell me it is horrible the first time you come home to a horned goat that has passed because it got its head stuck in the fence on a 100+ degree day. 

In saying that, it is simply a personal preference. A few minutes of pain that could save its life later is worth it for some. I have boers so I do not dehorn BUT, I have also put in fencing that they can't get their heads stuck in. The goats are fine in all of 2 minutes. Like it or not, they are livestock.


----------



## ogfabby (Jan 3, 2013)

All of mine are tattooed. Again, a few seconds and its over.


----------



## julieq (Feb 25, 2013)

Well, let's see. I can put the same amount of money and time into an unregistered herd and get next to nothing for the kids, or I can register them and get 350.00 to 650.00 for each kid. 

I think I'll continue to disbud, tattoo, do herd testing and register them all!


----------



## abbeynorml (Feb 25, 2013)

abbeynorml said:


> Is there a reason some are disbudded more (or less) than others? My Dad used to poll all of his dairy kids, that is nubians, alpines, etc., and my plan is to poll all of our Boer and TexMaster kids, as well. Is there a reason we shouldn't, or that it should be different between breeds/types?
> ~Anna Beth


I suppose the subject was shifted for a bit, based on personal opinion, as well as safety and health reasons (which are why we have always polled them) --- so I figured I'd post my question again.


----------



## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

My first generation of Pygmies was natural (though my registered purebred came tattooed). I couldn't understand the need for disbudding, so I didn't. I raised my babies in the house with extra care, took them on trips to acclimate them to the car and new environments, and otherwise tended to them to be house pets. Unfortunately, I had not done all the research I should have on why disbudding of Pygmies is such a widespread practice. 

After all my hard work and care, the babies I raised as sweet housepets all ended up unhappily on large farms. I later read that "If you want to turn a loving Pygmy into a contrary bitch, leave her horns on." As they reached adulthood all my babies were returned because they became aggressive with their horns. Even my own Peggy Sue, who I still keep as a housepet, is unpredictable around guests and children and has to be put away when I'm not around to supervise. My buck, Buddy Holly, has to be kept on a tether because he has hurt several people with his horns even though he is a sweet friendly guy. 

It broke my heart to disbud Peggy Sue's babies, but I wanted them to have happy lives as beloved family pets, so I did it. I did find that it wasn't the gruesome experience I thought it would be and the babies were actually much less traumatized than my own children would be after vaccinations! It took less than a minute, and immediately afterward they were back to their bouncy happy selves. 

I've learned not to judge the choices of others from this experience. I had taken biased information about a procedure I had no experience with and made bad choices for my goats. I'm not saying everyone should disbud, I'm not even saying I wouldn't go natural with a different kind of herd, I'm just saying it is a more complicated issue than one of convenience and so long as it's done safely and correctly an owner should feel no compunction in choosing to disbud if that's the right choice for their goats.


----------



## PearcePastures (Oct 6, 2012)

I am responding just to share perspective, not to attack here. What is right for one person is not going to be right for everyone is there is nothing wrong with that. I love the look of horns and think it is great that people do work around them. And there is nothing wrong with unregistered animals and we keep both.

Why do I disbud and tattoo though? If I going to attend to animals needs, provide them with food, shelter, medical care, and protection from predators, (in other words, keep a domesticated animal), there has to be purpose in it. For us, the purposes are companionship, education through showing, and grocery supplementation. 

To keep our children and us safe, and so we can show, we disbud (which is s different thing than dehorning which I will not do). I have had injuries from goats horns and it would not take much for one of our kids to lose an eye. The tattooing is required for showing and it serves as permanent ID for my animals (I have my dogs micro-chipped too for the same reason). There is pain involved, which can be minimized with Banamine. But there is a trade-off....they experience 16 seconds of pain, and get a lifetime of loving care and protection.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

strong feelings on both ends of this subject can inflame the tempers ..simply put..it is a choice each breeder makes..each are entitled to their own opinion..period. if asked why one disbuds, then accept the answer, dont argue, it is their reason!..if asked why one does not..then accept that answer, dont argue, it is their reason...its not one right one wrong..its one choice over another...and if you want to know why one disbuds or does not disbud..look up previous threads instead of starting yet another thread and starting the fire allover again...: ) Peace My goat friends....we are all in this together..helping, supporting and sharing...because we all love out goaties..


----------



## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

Abbey, I don't know about anything but Pygmies, but from what I've seen ppl traditionally poll dairy and ornamental breeds, but leave the horns on meat breeds like Boers. I think it has to do with how much they will be handled. Dairies and ornamentals are handled a lot so the risk to the owner is greater; meat breeds are only handled during trims, vaccinations, and kidding so the risk is minimized. 

That's just my speculation, though!


----------



## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

Pronking Publius said:


> I was just flipping through a book I bought called The Goatkeeper's Veterinary Book by Peter Dunn. In the section on how to disbud, the author talked about a handful of different anesthetics to use prior to disbudding. I am going to be doing my first disbuddings myself in a few months and I never heard of people using anesthesia on their kids for this. I'm going to just be using a kid box and a disbudding iron. Anyone in here use anesthesia on their kids when disbudding? It was a British book...maybe they do things a bit different over across the pond?


Across the pond, all disudding must be done under the care of a veterinarian while under general anesthesia. It is the law. That is why the book includes information about anesthetics.



S+S Homestead said:


> So why did you suggest that because I choose not to subject my babies to the pain and horror of being disbudding and tattoed that I am less likely to tend to their regular care and maintenance?
> 
> Disbudding is just a polite name for dehorning. Exactly why do dairy goats need to be dehorned? I can milk my goats just fine with horns intact.


Feel free to do what you want to with your herd. But don't judge what others do with their herds. Everybody's practices are different, but not necessarily bad. I think many of the people here have given sound reasons for why they do what they do. It is clear you will never agree with them, regardless of what reasons they have. *So it may be a good idea to just skip all topics regarding tattooing or disbudding, so you don't get upset.*


----------



## S+S Homestead (Jul 23, 2012)

Stacykins said:


> Feel free to do what you want to with your herd. But don't judge what others do with their herds. Everybody's practices are different, but not necessarily bad. I think many of the people here have given sound reasons for why they do what they do. It is clear you will never agree with them, regardless of what reasons they have. So it may be a good idea to just skip all topics regarding tattooing or disbudding, so you don't get upset.


Thanks Stacykins and Happybleats. You are right and I just need to stay away from these topics. I have deleted my posts and I'm sorry for highjacking the thread.


----------



## abbeynorml (Feb 25, 2013)

Axykatt said:


> Abbey, I don't know about anything but Pygmies, but from what I've seen ppl traditionally poll dairy and ornamental breeds, but leave the horns on meat breeds like Boers. I think it has to do with how much they will be handled. Dairies and ornamentals are handled a lot so the risk to the owner is greater; meat breeds are only handled during trims, vaccinations, and kidding so the risk is minimized.
> 
> That's just my speculation, though!


Thank u, Axy, I appreciate your response. I finally looked it up online (guess i should've done that initially).

What I found: The boers generally aren't polled, approx 98% are left with horns. Only the wethers are polled, and only for safety reasons, due to young children working with and showing them. The breeding shows for registered boers include horns as part of the overall animal they are judging, therefore unless they are naturally born polled, they should be left intact.

(Those that may know, pls correct me if I'm wrong, I'm learning, meat goats are new to me.)


----------



## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

abbeynorml said:


> Thank u, Axy, I appreciate your response. I finally looked it up online (guess i should've done that initially).
> 
> What I found: The boers generally aren't polled, approx 98% are left with horns. Only the wethers are polled, and only for safety reasons, due to young children working with and showing them. The breeding shows for registered boers include horns as part of the overall animal they are judging, therefore unless they are naturally born polled, they should be left intact.
> 
> (Those that may know, pls correct me if I'm wrong, I'm learning, meat goats are new to me.)


Breeding stock is required to have horns in the ABGA sanctioned shows, per breed standard. I think when you said up there about wethers being polled, I think you meant disbudded/dehorned. Many 4H organizations want all goats dehorned to be able to show in youth programs around my area so you hardly ever see breeding stock in the 4H shows around here.

For practical uses, if you're not planning on showing at all, look into your customers' wishes. 4H or brood stock. Dehorn/disbud. I would also contact the ADGA to ask for a member in your area you can speak to that may "mentor" you better.


----------



## Broski1984 (Jul 21, 2011)

Personally, I've never used any pain-killing agents. We spray them with blu-kote afterwards which supposedly helps cool the site (at least I've been told that), but they don't seem to react very long afterwards anyway. Banding seems to take more of a toll on them than disbudding!

I've done about 20 or so kids (all mine this year and last year, plus a few friends' kids), and all except for three have gotten up and about right after the disbudding, with no sign of anything bad having just happened to them.

We did have one faint (and he's not a "fainting" goat!), and we had one that fell over and although alert, didn't move for a few minutes; both of them were bucklings. I honestly think that male kids have much lower pain tolerance than female ones at this point, as they always cry louder and make a bigger deal of any medical procedure! Bunch of momma's boys, real disgraces all around, haha.

The third one didn't have any initial ill effects, but she went from "sweet and affectionate" to "hateful and spiteful" after that, and never came back around to being friendly. I imagine she found the experience more traumatizing than most or something. 

Most kids just act like it didn't happen afterwards, though. Just be careful to not burn any ears or anything, haha.


----------



## Broski1984 (Jul 21, 2011)

Pronking Publius said:


> Ksalvagno, that makes sense. I think the Banamine is definitely a good idea. I have used that before for various things over the years. I think goat ownership in Britain carries with it much more stringent regulations from what I gather. A lot of simple operations are talked about in the book in reference to a vet doing it, like disbudding, which is probably the reason anesthesia is mentioned, since it describes it being done with a vet. One section of the book even mentioned how in the UK all goatkeepers are required by law to have a copy of the "Code of Recommendations for the Welfare of Goats". Proud to be an American is all I can say. No offense to our British friends.
> 
> And Audrey. Ya pretty much. The methods the book mentions are actually by mask, secondly a painkiller in conjunction with local anesthesia, or thirdly an IM injection. Like I said....never heard of doing all that jazz before. I do like the Banamine idea though. Any other comments are welcome. Thanks.


Britain has much stricter, and at times honestly stupid "animal rights" laws. For example, I think you legally can't band anything over four weeks old, or something like that. It's a very liberal county on a lot of things, in all the wrong ways - they're talking of banning kitchen knives!

Not to get into the debate of disbudding, but personally, I'll buy a goat with horns, but MY goats are being disbudded. I've been hurt several times by goats with horns (even small ones), pretty badly - and as we have a petting zoo and a lot of kids around, I don't want anyone else to get hurt, either.

It also makes it so I can sell mine for a little bit more (in my area, people are more eager to buy disbudded goats and usually will pay a slight bit more) and they can then be shown in 4H if someone desires.

After having my hands skinned (literally, in one case) and being nearly gored multiple times, I just don't see the point in raising them with horns if you'll be interacting with them daily. We also have had lots of goats get stuck in fences/trees because of their horns and seriously injure one another. Our buck is down right frightening despite being only 55 pounds, due to his huge horns as well.

Just isn't worth it to me! Plus it honestly doesn't seem all that painful. I'd rather be disbudded than circumcised again, in all honesty.


----------



## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Broski1984 said:


> Britain has much stricter, and at times honestly stupid "animal rights" laws. For example, I think you legally can't band anything over four weeks old, or something like that. It's a very liberal county on a lot of things, in all the wrong ways - they're talking of banning kitchen knives.


Broski1984, I hear you on the stupid laws. This is WAY off topic, but hey, I started the thread, so maybe I have more leeway. I worked as a ranch hand on a sheep dairy and they were "animal welfare approved". Now I'm not mocking that at all. No doubt there are some people in here who probably are; good marketing to be such I would think. But it's my understanding to get that status, with that particular stock, they couldn't dock (shorten) the sheeps tails. Of course they COULD castrate the males and still be animal welfare approved...that's just fine and dandy...but to shorten their tails to help prevent fly-strike...that was apparently out of order! I'm PRETTY sure those were the regs, but I could be wrong. Anyway, I hear you on stupid laws and regulations. They seem to abound. Course there are better examples of stupid regulations than that, but that one just popped into my head. Hey, someone should start a thread on stupid laws! Or does that belong in a politics room? It probably gets heated enough in here from time to time already without that.


----------



## Broski1984 (Jul 21, 2011)

Pronking Publius said:


> But it's my understanding to get that status, with that particular stock, they couldn't dock (shorten) the sheeps tails. Of course they COULD castrate the males and still be animal welfare approved...that's just fine and dandy...but to shorten their tails to help prevent fly-strike...that was apparently out of order! I'm PRETTY sure those were the regs, but I could be wrong. Anyway, I hear you on stupid laws and regulations.


I am pretty sure that is also against the law, completely, in Britain. I remember coming across a website with all their laws a few years ago, relating to livestock, and basically everything more than vaccinations requires a vet. I think it isn't legal to use bands at all either over there.

PETA is trying to do a lot of that here, and more. I won't go into all the stupid things PETA does/has done (or the fact that they euthanize many more animals than they "save" and don't want animals to be "enslaved" as pets), but it always amazes me the stupid celebs they drag into things. P!NK did a long video about how horrifically cruel fly-strike prevention is a while back, for example.

But this is all rather off-topic, haha.

To get a bit more on-topic, I remember a long time ago I was a user on an image board, and very well known on there as the "goat guy". After years of being the "goat guy", another user came along, who also owned goats. We were complete opposites on everything, and she was a MAJOR animal rights activist, going as far as to call me a "barbarian" for disbudding goats and castrating them.

Ironically, out of a herd of 150+, all but 35 of her goats had died two months before she joined, due to horrific management (a huge percentage of them got into pesticides when she let them loose on a neighbor's property without asking) and down right cruelty (she let a few freeze to death).

Some people!


----------



## Pronking Publius (Mar 29, 2012)

Broski1984 said:


> Ironically, out of a herd of 150+, all but 35 of her goats had died two months before she joined, due to horrific management (a huge percentage of them got into pesticides when she let them loose on a neighbor's property without asking) and down right cruelty (she let a few freeze to death).


I can't resist. THIS place I was talking about, where I worked...same EXACT thing. They advertised themselves as a green company, and animal welfare approved and on and on.....I QUIT because I was tired of working in an environment where they mistreated their animals, though that wasn't the only reason I quit. Some people are clueless. The owners really did think they were treating them well I think...but they weren't at all. For them it was a GOOD thing for example that they basically had no shelter for their animals. It was more NATURAL. Their lamb death rate was probably double what it should have been, their lamb barn was mismanaged, I could go on and on and on with more vivid and even grotesque examples. I on the other hand don't really believe in over-regulation, and I don't really care for PETA, God bless them, and I treat my animals like they part of the family. If I can't treat an animal like they should be treated, I don't own them. You know, depending on the layout and management system, many of these animals have it WAY better than animals in the wild. Give them enough space and some love, and it all works out. Nature is cruel. That's what some of these folks don't get. But most farmers get it.


----------



## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Some of those PETA types drive me nuts. I am reminded of the person, who had an animal suffering with UC, they attempted to treat it by cutting the pizzle, but were unsuccessful. They wanted to euthanize the poor animal. But, because of the LAW they were unable to do it themselves. Had to wait till the vet could come the NEXT DAY. Of course the animal died in agony before it could be "humanely" euthanized. Is that "irony", in order to be acting within the "humanity" laws you must act inhumane?


----------



## Broski1984 (Jul 21, 2011)

Pronking Publius said:


> I can't resist. THIS place I was talking about, where I worked...same EXACT thing. They advertised themselves as a green company, and animal welfare approved and on and on.....I QUIT because I was tired of working in an environment where they mistreated their animals, though that wasn't the only reason I quit. Some people are clueless. The owners really did think they were treating them well I think...but they weren't at all. For them it was a GOOD thing for example that they basically had no shelter for their animals. It was more NATURAL. Their lamb death rate was probably double what it should have been, their lamb barn was mismanaged, I could go on and on and on with more vivid and even grotesque examples. Nature is cruel. That's what some of these folks don't get. But most farmers get it.


(trimmed for length)

The woman I was talking about, had lost most of them due to pesticide as I said (she'd had a contract with someone who rented the field next to her, that they could eat the corn husks after everything was gathered; when the renter changed, she still did it, and the goats ended up eating the entire crop + poisoning themselves), but the rest died due to her poor barn management. Babies were trampled, goats died from infections, and most of the low-on-the-totem-pole goats died from frost bite and the cold, as it wasn't big enough for them to all get in, but she wouldn't expand due to expenses.

Of course, as the board I was on was geared towards young men, they generally took her side on things, as she was a pretty girl with very little shame, if you get what I mean!



Di said:


> Some of those PETA types drive me nuts. I am reminded of the person, who had an animal suffering with UC, they attempted to treat it by cutting the pizzle, but were unsuccessful. They wanted to euthanize the poor animal. But, because of the LAW they were unable to do it themselves. Had to wait till the vet could come the NEXT DAY. Of course the animal died in agony before it could be "humanely" euthanized. Is that "irony", in order to be acting within the "humanity" laws you must act inhumane?


I've heard of that happening around here, too, but with horses. I think in my county it is illegal to shoot horses, but our only equine vet is slow and over priced, so a lot of horses die in agony.


----------



## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

Too many people who have never even been to a farm get to decide animal rights policies. My vegan friends are constantly posting PETA propaganda on my Facebook stream that I then find on Snopes or similar as being false, outdated, or from 3rd world countries and not applicable to civilized farming practices. I also hear about how inhumane milking is, how I'm raping my hens for eggs, and what a monster I am for cooking the 6 roosters that resulted when I bought "mixed chickens" instead of pullets.

I am a responsible animal owner. I love my babies and treat them like family. That's why I chose disbudding for my kids, and that's why I'm wethering my bucks. I was horrified by the whole disbudding process until I actually saw it done and how little the babies were hurt and traumatized. It was definitely worth the trade off of getting a cushy life as a family pet, which is a lot less likely with horns.

Before someone can pass judgment on animal care practices they should really familiarize themselves with what sort of care the animals need and how much the benefit outweighs the pain involved.


----------



## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

This is why I have such trouble accepting these PETA/vegan people. 
They have good intentions but they blow everything out of proportion into stupidity. 
I am against mistreatment and cruelty to animals. I am not against disbudding for safety, desexing (castrate/spay), milking, eating meat or eggs. 
I'll admit that some factory farming things make me sick at how the animals are kept. 
But it irritates me when they think breeding animals is cruel when it was gonna happen in the "wild" and in worse circumstances anyway.


----------



## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I just realised I ranted a bit off topic there, sorry


----------



## Broski1984 (Jul 21, 2011)

Haha, I think we all did!

My grandmother will call and rant about how cruel we are for breeding our goats, and subjecting them to "rape", especially since we won't keep the kids. Unfortunately, one doesn't grow out of stupidity.


----------



## RocknMERanch (Mar 2, 2013)

Good luck I just can't bring myself to do it. Plus all of our 18 goats are on open range and its a false sense of security for me at least. Different when the herd is penned and there always seems to be a greedy head butter to the others. 

? So when one is disbudding is it like calfs and use that pipe horn cutter and then the iron or for goats is the iron just used????? I have disbudded calfs not goats.


----------



## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

No, disbudding is done before the horn buds break the skin, preferably as soon as you can feel them well on the skull.

To disbud one of two methods is generally used.

1. A caustic paste is applied to the horn buds after they are shaved. Usually a ring of Vaseline is put around them so the paste does not drip or spread. The paste burns out the buds and no horns grow. Some people neutralize it with vinegar and wash it off after 30 minutes, some cover it with tape and leave it until the tape falls off.

2. (The method I used) A disbudding tool that looks very similar to a large inverted wood burner is used to burn out the buds. The baby is placed in a special box with a collar to hold his head still and keep his ears back. The buds are shaved and then the tool is used to burn the caps off. It takes 15-20 seconds per side (longer for bucks) and the wound is cauterized and doesn't usually bleed. The babies are out playing again almost immediately and show little to no sign of trauma if done correctly.

Hope that helps!


----------



## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

I've never seen a calf disbudded, so I don't know if the iron or technique is similar.


----------



## BlazeOfGloryKinders (Mar 3, 2013)

Does anyone recomend a disbudding iron for Kinders? We will be having our first kids in a month and since the breed is a hybred I wasn't sure weither I should us a x30 or x50.... Any ideas would be great


----------



## BlazeOfGloryKinders (Mar 3, 2013)

I forgot to say an idea on tip size would be awesome


----------



## Broski1984 (Jul 21, 2011)

BlazeOfGloryKinders said:


> Does anyone recomend a disbudding iron for Kinders? We will be having our first kids in a month and since the breed is a hybred I wasn't sure weither I should us a x30 or x50.... Any ideas would be great


Do you have full-sized or pygmy goats aside from that one?

I use this one:
http://www.jefferspet.com/x-30-electric-dehorner/camid/LIV/cp/0029537/cn/31074/

We've got both sizes of goats, and it works fine on pygmy goats, although it probably leaves a bigger burn than is necessary. Last year I did four full-sized kids with no problem, and so far this year I've done one full-sized and three pygmy without problems.

My only issue with it, is that you have to be really careful to not burn ears on the pygmies, but you should be okay.

If you really want you can get the X-50, but I've never felt the need for it and I like that the X-30 has a fixed tip; fewer parts my dumb self can lose!

I've heard some people have issues getting it to heat, but just let it sit until it heats up red-hot and then test it on a piece of wood; does it instantly leave a nice, burnt circle (dark, too) with minimal pressure? If so, it's ready. Mine has always given consistent heat, even when doing multiple kids.

EDIT: I always thought the X-50 was for small goats for some reason. If you want it for the multiple tips, go for it. Otherwise, get the X-30 with the X-30 Small Goat/Pygmy (Kids) Dehorner (3/8" inner Diam.) or X-30 Calf/Goat Dehorner Electric Dehorner (1/2" inner Diam.). I have the latter and it works really great; it is small enough for pygmies/mixes, but also big enough for older kids and cattle.

If you plan on (after this) having purebred little goats go with the 3/8".


----------



## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I have an x-30. Not sure what the tip size is, but it works great on my Alpines, Nubians and Saanens. I've also used it on a pygmy and he was fine. If you are going to tattoo, I have the larger tattoo set for my Nubians and the smaller set for my Alpines and Saanens. The littler digits fit in the ear better when they are smaller. The big ones will fit, but you have to wait until they are bigger so it will fit between the veins.

I think it would be nice if the registries started to accept microchips in place of tattoos as permanent ID.


----------



## BlazeOfGloryKinders (Mar 3, 2013)

Thank you guys! I was leaning towards the x30 but I needed that extra nudge. The only other breed I have had is Nubians and since I could still be called a beginner, I wanted to ask the pros  I am in love with my Kinders, they are sixth generation and they are my babies!! <3


----------

