# Am I overfeeding Pregnant Doe? And should I seperate her?



## fauna (Jun 25, 2014)

I have two Nigerian dwarf does, one is pregnant. She is also a pig. I feed her 1 1/3 cup Dumor Sweet Goat Feed, couple handfuls of alfalfa hay, about 1/4 to 1/3c alfalfa pellets and have just started (yesterday) throwing in some BOSS. The other goat gets the 2/3 cup Dumor and the same of everything else. This goat is not pregnant. They also eat their bedding, which is coastal hay, although they don't go crazy with it. I feed both goats twice a day the above amounts. They also have free access to loose minerals, a cow lick (red block) and baking soda. They don't touch the minerals and baking soda, so sometimes I will throw some minerals on top of their feed.

When the pregnant doe is finished eating her food, she will go finish off the other one's food.

Am I doing this totally wrong? I don't want to overfeed, but I want to make sure she is getting enough nutrients. Our yard is really muddy right now from all the rain and they won't go browse unless it's drier.

Also, I was wondering if this is the best feed for them. Our options are Southern States Lucas Goat, Dumor Sweet Feed or medicated, Purina Goat Chow and Noble Goat Parlor. I picked up a bag of noble goat parlor for when she has the kids, but not sure when/how to switch her over, or if I should be using something else.

I was going to free choice alfalfa pellets and stop giving them the alfalfa hay because of cost, but the pregnant doe eats all the pellets as soon as she is done. I stopped putting the pellets out free choice because I'm concerned she will bloat.

For a low maintenance animal, they sure are expensive and time consuming .

Also, we only have one stall that stays open for access to the yard. When she kids, will I need to make a separate area for her and the kids and keep the other female away from them? Or will they be okay all together?

I am so confused. :dazed:


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Keep the BOSS low, it throws your nutrients out of balance (calciumhosphate IIRC). 4 cups for a nigie seems high, but I feed by weight so don't know cups. 

Goats will eat each others' food. They will also fatten themselves if given a chance. You should separate moms for kidding if they aren't bestest friends with the other goat(s), and, even then, some girls will steal babies, so penning mom alone with the kids is usually best. It lets you feed her without competition, keep an eye on the kids, and ensure that the maternal bond is successful.

I'd feed dairy parlor starting the last week or two of pregnancy when she's making milk.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I wouldn't do more than 1 cup of pelleted feed once a day. Hay should be most of their diet.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

You need to weigh your feed. I use a food scale. Raising Goats for Dummies says not to feed more than 0.5 lbs of grain per day to pregnant does in their last month of pregnancy otherwise you run the risk of the babies growing too big. That's for standard size goats. So for Nigerian dwarfs I only fee 0.4 lbs and have had great results. One of my does had kidded twice before I got her, triplets each time, and the kids had to always be pulled. I only fed her 0.4 lbs of grain and she was able to deliver triplets all on her own. I let them have as much grass hay and forage as they want and give 1 cup of alfalfa pellets along with their grain. The BOSS I include in the total weight of grain (like a teaspoonful a day). It's loaded with phosphorus so don't over do it. After they kid, I increase everything as needed for milk production.

Edit: I would definitely separate her to keep her from eating too much grain.


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## fauna (Jun 25, 2014)

Thank you for all the replies. I do have a food scale (haven't used it since my son's science fair last year), I could see if it still works and use it for the goats.

HarleyBarley: I didn't know BOSS would create a nutrient imbalance. How much do you feed yours by weight?

*ksalvagno*: Does that include the alfalfa pellets or just the grain? Which kind of hay? I have access to coastal or timothy/alfalfa blend or the alfalfa by itself. They don't seem to care much for the coastal. But will munch on it a little.

LadySecret: I hope it isn't too late for big headed babies. But she is already developing her udder. Actually, I didn't think the male we sold got her pregnant until a couple of weeks ago when her udder started to bag up a little (Not much, but enough to notice a difference). And it kind of dawned on me that our other goats Bessie has been in heat several times, but Daisy hasn't shown signs of heat for months. So just to be clear I understand you, feed .4 lbs grain total for the day (so .2 lb per feeding) and 1 cup of alfalfa pellets and sprinkle a couple of sunflower seeds per feeding or 1 cup alfalfa pellets all day? What about the other doe, should I eliminate the grain or just reduce it? I can tie them separately while feeding. That's not really an issue. Hopefully I didn't cause problems by overfeeding already. I will cut back this afternoon.

Thank you again.

Edit: Umm, drawing a blank. How many ounces is .4 lb? I know it's 16 ounces in a pound and 1/2 a pound would be 8 ounces. So would .4 be 6.4 ounces? Just wanted someone to check my math.....


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I would remove the baking soda and the salt block. Both will keep a goat from eating the proper amount of their minerals each day. If given a balanced diet with long stem hay, a goat should not need baking soda unless they have bloat. Hay provides a natural form of baking soda.

I run my hands over each goat every day to keep track of their condition. If she is not milking, I want to be able to feel her ribs but feel a bit of fat covering the ribs. If she is getting too thin or fat, I adjust the feed accordingly. My goats get grain 365 days a year, milkers and late pregnancy get more than dry does. I have never had a problem with kids being too big to be born easily.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Let me preface this by saying that no one on here feeds pregnant does the same ways. A lot of different ways seem to work really well. I use the 1/2 pound rule because I had that book long before I found this site. It worked really well for me and even my doe with a history of large kids that get stuck. So that's what I do.

If I were you, I would weigh your grain so you know how much she has been eating per day in pounds/oz. If your worried that it's too much, I would slowly decrease her grain a little. If you dramatically reduce her grain I would be more worried about triggering pregnancy toxemia than having kids that are too big.

Ok let me try to anwser you question about what I feed...My grain mix includes the BOSS. So all together my NDs total grain when late bred is the 0.4 lb or around 6.5 oz each per day. The alfalfa pellets are not included in this weight but the BOSS is. BOSS is very light. My BOSS weighs 1 oz per 1/4 cup. Yours might be different. I have a formula for my grain mix that tells me how much to use to get the right calcium to phosphorus ratio. So I can't really tell you specifically how much to add to your grain ration. I believe most people feed some where between a teaspoon to a tablespoon a day. My ND girls get 1 cup of alfalfa pellets per day in addition to their grain ration if I'm feeding a grass hay mixed with alfalfa. If it's just grass hay I might bump it up to 3 cups per day. It's a balancing act. Protein is what makes kids grow big and alfalfa is around 16 % protein. Too much and you could get large kids that are difficult to birth or too little and the doe doesn't get the calcium she needs to grow her kids and make milk when she kids.

Try not to get overwhelmed. You'll 
learn a lot with your first couple of pregnant does and go from there.


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## fauna (Jun 25, 2014)

lottsagoats1 said:


> I would remove the baking soda and the salt block. Both will keep a goat from eating the proper amount of their minerals each day. If given a balanced diet with long stem hay, a goat should not need baking soda unless they have bloat. Hay provides a natural form of baking soda.
> 
> I run my hands over each goat every day to keep track of their condition. If she is not milking, I want to be able to feel her ribs but feel a bit of fat covering the ribs. If she is getting too thin or fat, I adjust the feed accordingly. My goats get grain 365 days a year, milkers and late pregnancy get more than dry does. I have never had a problem with kids being too big to be born easily.


How much more do you increase the grain once they give birth and while milking? If she gives good milk, I would really like to keep milking her once the babies are weaned. Removing the baking soda and salt/mineral block isn't a problem. They seem to ignore it anyhow. I wish I knew when she got pregnant. I have no idea when he got her. We never seen him mount her. But he was blubbering around her. He couldn't stand the other goat though. We thought that was really odd. Bessie (the one he didn't like) is more his size. Daisy is at least twice his size, maybe even triple or almost. He should throw really pretty blue eyed babies though


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I WAY overfed my goaties the first couple of years. My feed prices have gone down considerably since I backed off - and my girls are just as healthy and happy as they were when I was more generous.

An easy solution when you only have a few goats (I have 3) is to buy a dog leash for each goat. My girls get leashed to the fence at feeding time and then they each get their own bowl of food. My Nigerian is pregnant right now and she IS a hungry girl. But I only give her 1/2 a cup of sweet feed plus a small handful of BOSS twice a day. I watch her weight. If she starts thinning out too much I will increase her feed, but only by an ounce or so. If I start feeling a bitt too much flesh over the ribcage I cut back and ounce or so. I don't unleash anyone until everyone is done eating.

My girls are penned, so they get next to no browse. The rest of their diet is just good quality grass hay and they are doing great. I go through 3-4 flakes of hay (from a smallish, rectangular bale) a day for 1 Nigerian and 2 LaManchas (also pregnant).


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## fauna (Jun 25, 2014)

LadySecret said:


> If I were you, I would weigh your grain so you know how much she has been eating per day in pounds/oz. If your worried that it's too much, I would slowly decrease her grain a little. If you dramatically reduce her grain I would be more worried about triggering pregnancy toxemia than having kids that are too big.


I measured when I went out to feed them and the scoop I am using (equivalent to 2/3 cup) weighed 3 ounces. I usually give her two scoops of grain at each feeding, but this time cut it back to one scoop. I also gave her a handful of alfalfa hay (instead of 2) and 3/4 scoop alfalfa pellets (instead of a full scoop) with about 1 tsp. BOSS. Do you think I cut back too much too soon?

[/QUOTE] My ND girls get 1 cup of alfalfa pellets per day in addition to their grain ration if I'm feeding a grass hay mixed with alfalfa. If it's just grass hay I might bump it up to 3 cups per day. It's a balancing act. Protein is what makes kids grow big and alfalfa is around 16 % protein. Too much and you could get large kids that are difficult to birth or too little and the doe doesn't get the calcium she needs to grow her kids and make milk when she kids.[/QUOTE]

I don't really know the difference between hay types. I'm assuming timothy/alfalfa blend is what I should be getting instead of plain alfalfa? I don't think coastal has much of anything for nutrition, but I don't really know. Coastal is usually what is available around here. It's what I use for their bedding since I can't find straw. (I put this over the pine sawdust that comes in pellet form from tractor supply). This seems to help keep their bedding drier.

I appreciate your feedback. I would much rather follow someone who is successful in their feeding regiment than trying to guess like I've been doing. Although northern weeds and brush are probably better for goats than Florida swamp weeds and wax myrtle, I'm sure that effects their diet and health as well. Speaking of; whenever I hand feed them the wax myrtle and green pine needles, which they LOVE, they act like I've given them red bull or something. Aren't these plants safe for nd's?

[/QUOTE]Try not to get overwhelmed. You'll 
learn a lot with your first couple of pregnant does and go from there.[/QUOTE]

Way too late for that , I've been overwhelmed since we were given gizmo. Only to later learn about intact boy goats and the need for companions, and hate of rain, and ............... But, I really love my girls and I want to give them the best home I can. (We loved Gizmo too, but I was totally unprepared for boy goats - and really don't want to deal with that yet - he went to a good home though).

Thank you again for such detailed response, it is much appreciated.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Yes, too much. Don't cut in half, cut no more than 25% at a time; and I'd only cut 10% on a pregnant doe (if at all - I really don't recommend cutting back after they bag up). Don't cut alfalfa hay back at all. BOSS weighs almost nothing, it's the only thing I feed by volume; give up to 1 handful per week (spread out), so a tsp is good.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I know several people on this site feed alfalfa hay to all of their goats all year and in any stage of life and they have great results. So I probably would keep giving your doe the same amount of alfalfa hay/pellets that you always feed her and just reduce the grain. I'd decrease maybe by 1/2 cup (so 1.5 oz) total for 3-4 days and decrease a little more and so on. Just be very gradual with it. It sounds like you've been feeding her about a pound of grain a day. That's not too bad. Her kids will probably be fine.

Goats can do really well on a timothy alfalfa blend. I don't like it though because it costs as much as strait alfalfa hay/pellets (where I live) and has less calcium and protein. It's not cost effective for me. Much cheaper for me to buy alfalfa and mix it with my Bermuda hay for the goats that need it than buying it already mixed. What kind of hay you feed will depend on what is affordable for you and is accessible in year area.


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## fauna (Jun 25, 2014)

LadySecret said:


> I know several people on this site feed alfalfa hay to all of their goats all year and in any stage of life and they have great results. So I probably would keep giving your doe the same amount of alfalfa hay/pellets that you always feed her and just reduce the grain. I'd decrease maybe by 1/2 cup (so 1.5 oz) total for 3-4 days and decrease a little more and so on. Just be very gradual with it. It sounds like you've been feeding her about a pound of grain a day. That's not too bad. Her kids will probably be fine.
> 
> Goats can do really well on a timothy alfalfa blend. I don't like it though because it costs as much as strait alfalfa hay/pellets (where I live) and has less calcium and protein. It's not cost effective for me. Much cheaper for me to buy alfalfa and mix it with my Bermuda hay for the goats that need it than buying it already mixed. What kind of hay you feed will depend on what is affordable for you and is accessible in year area.


My poor goat. I'm sitting hear laughing at myself and hanging my head in shame. I jump too fast to try and correct things sometimes. I did give her a bit more alfalfa when I went out to get the chickens that had gotten themselves locked out of the coop. So I guess she'll be okay for tonight. Even though I was starving her, she still followed me like a puppy. Hopefully no harm done. I'll give her the "normal" rations tomorrow and just cut back a bit at a time as you suggest.

Although, I just bought a 50 pound bag of BOSS yesterday. And I'm wondering, what am I going to do with all that. Didn't realize they only got so little. Maybe I'll start a sunflower garden or start feeding the squirrels 

Does BOSS stay good for a while, or will it go bad? It's going to take a long time for me to use 50# for 2 goats, 1 tsp at a time............

Oh: Printable version on web tools is handy! I just printed to pdf file this thread where I can refer back to it easily. Whoever created that, thanks!


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

I think it is very confusing as well.

HarleyBarley posted this excellent article elsewhere:
http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd18/11/rast18159.html

One of the conclusions of the study was that how much to feed a pregnant doe and when might depend on the breed. (This study using a different breed had different results than a study on Pygmies.)

The Pygmy study has been cited in this forum a number of times. Not sure who to credit. I have Nigerians as well, and I suspect that they would be more similar to the Pygmies in their dietary needs, but don't know.

http://kinne.net/drostudy.htm

I have also heard that one Nigerian breeder had better luck when feeding less alfalfa and more grass hay to pregnant does.

People do seem to have good luck using a wide variety of feeding regimens.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Your doe will be fine! She's real lucky to have an owner that worries about her the way you do. 

I store my BOSS in a metal trash can with a lid on it in my den closet. Seeds can last a long time if they are kept dry and away from vermin.


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## fauna (Jun 25, 2014)

Thank you for the links. I'll check them out.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

The Pygmy study is interesting but it only included 15 does. That's a very small population size for a study.

I couldn't get the first link to work.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Grain is not all the same. Dairy grain is usually higher protein and minerals (esp. calcium); but the range is probably 12-20% protein and the minerals and other nutrients vary, as well. Why such a wide range? Because they serve different purposes. 20% is intended as a minimal supplement for forage (or hay) or for HIGH production; the lower percents are intended as more of a meal. So it's not enough to just copy the lbs. someone else feeds; if they're feeding a high protein and you feed low protein (or vice versa), one goat is getting the perfect amount and the other isn't.

I know it's kind of hard and confusing! My dog just get the number of cups directed on the bag, and I'm done!

The bulk of a goat's diet should be hay, and that's why they eat their bedding - but you don't want them to eat bedding, because they poop in it. They need the hay for fiber; you can feed alfalfa hay, or grass hay. Grass hay has lower protein. Mine is orchard grass, maybe 10% protein, way lower than goats need (except wethers or dry does). Alfalfa is about 16% protein - more than they need at most lifestages. Alfalfa pellets don't have the roughage goats need, so if you feed those, you have to give grass hay for roughage.

Here's a good article on matching protein % in "concentrates"/grain to lifestage (note that the amounts they recommend are for large goats, not minis like yours):
http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/dairy/feed-and-nutrition/feeding-dairy-goats/

This one is more specific about amounts and stuff:
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/generalfeedingguidelines.html

And, IMO, they recommend too much grain.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Your girl is bagging up, so we can _guess_ she's in her last month (maybe the last week!). If she's good dairy stock, you'll want to boost her feed when she starts lactating to increase milk production. But hay remains the mainstay of her diet. The other girl isn't "working" and may not need supplemental feed at all, but a handful twice a day will make her happy and very friendly! And you can plant BOSS for chicken forage, or feed your chickens a handful now and then.

Now, feeding an udder is different from feeding a womb. How much to feed her udder? Those links I gave? I think they suggest too much grain.

One way to figure the goat's grain requirement is to increase feed gradually every day, and milk production will increase, until one day it doesn't increase - that's the maximum amount of feed she can convert into milk.

She'll go into negative energy reserves to make milk at first, and she'll lose some weight until the grain is ramped up. I try to judge when she's in balance (eating enough) by using body condition scoring and the condition of her fur; when she's soft and shiny and her backbone is still a little sharp on top, that's pretty balanced, and she's getting the right amount. But if the side ridges of her backbone are sharp, she needs more.

If you plan to drink the milk, I'd suggest you use the minimum amount of grain necessary to maintain condition and production. Grass-fed milk has healthier nutrients, so I prefer to give free-choice alfalfa (or close to it) as the heart of the lactation diet. That's why I prefer to judge by her body condition - it lets me find the _minimum_ grain portion that will work. Always change feed amounts gradually... up OR down.


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## mistydaiz (Jan 28, 2011)

Here is a very great thread about Birth weights and Feeding the Pregnant Doe:
http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f19/birthweight-affected-gestation-feeding-34379/.

I would also change her feed to one with no molasses. Sweet feed has molasses, and feeding a lot of molasses will cause problems with a lactating doe.

You feed a pregnant doe based on her condition.
Leading up to her due date, feed her grain based on how she feels over her ribs.
Too ribby, slowly increase grain. Too much flesh and you can't feel ribs, decrease grain.
If you can just feel the ribs with a little pressure but can't see them, she is in good condition and you should keep her grain as it is.

Birth weights are affected by genetics and the condition of the dam.
If a dam is in good condition, her kids will be able to grow to their full potential, based on their parents' sizes, which you could get large kids, if the parents are large.
If the dam is overconditioned, or over weight, she will have trouble kidding, and delivering the kids could take a while.
If the dam is underconditioned or too thin, the kids COULD be a little small, or stay their normal size based on genetics.

Another thing.
If you feed way too much protein, like feeding a lot of the 17%-20% grain along with alfalfa, you could have a fat dam, and you will have kids sized to their potential. 
It is the size and condition of the dam that gives you problems, not the kids' birth weights.


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## mistydaiz (Jan 28, 2011)

Also, always keep her calcium/phosphorus ratio balanced!
It should be anywhere from 2:1 to 5:1.
And always make changes to grain gradually. Over a week, at least.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Sorry - one more! I found my favorite feeding reference. There's a chart showing the protein requirements at different stages:
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/livestock/production/goat/pubs/goats-and-their-nutrition.pdf

Protein requirements Maintenance 7% Early gestation 9 to 10% Late gestation 13 to 14% Lactation 12 to 17%

It's pretty low until late gestation, and even that is pretty low compared to heavy lactation.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

LadySecret said:


> The Pygmy study is interesting but it only included 15 does. That's a very small population size for a study.
> 
> I couldn't get the first link to work.


Trying again: http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd18/11/rast18159.htm


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

glndg said:


> Trying again: http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd18/11/rast18159.htm


Thanks! I was able to read it that time. I found the study interesting.

My main problem with this study is that the does were only fed concentrate and wheat straw during pregnancy. I don't know anyone that would feed a pregnant doe like that. All of the nutritional value is coming from the concentrate. So of course if you decrease the concentrate the last month of pregnancy your going to have problems. The results could be some what different if they fed a good grass hay or alfalfa instead of wheat straw.

The other weird thing is that the study says the does were adult 3 year olds weighing an average of 16.26 + or -0.82 kg. Thats like 36 lbs. Very small for goats being raised primarily for meat.

But very interesting study. Thanks for sharing it.


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## mistydaiz (Jan 28, 2011)

Yeah, I would not follow that study. It is not very thorough.

The protein percentages listed above do not mean it is solely from grain.
You do not want to feed a grain with over 17% protrien plus alfalfa, which is over another 17%.
You are asking for foundering, milk fever, and other problems.
The key is plenty of alfalfa, plus grain that is 12% protein and has 8% fat.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

mistydaiz said:


> Yeah, I would not follow that study. It is not very thorough.


The feeding suggestions in that study appear to be localized regimens; but the results contradict the results in the Pygmy study that Kinne talked about. I found that study by trying (unsuccessfully) to find the original research Kinne referenced.

What I found compelling about that study wasn't the feed program - but the fact that the HighLow feeding protocol - giving the doe increased nutrition early in pregnancy, and cutting her back later in pregnancy - was associated with a 33% death rate in the does (and loss of their kids). The goats on the HighHigh diet (increased feed throughout pregnancy) didn't die.

Now, granted, the study was done overseas, on goats indigenous to that locale, and the does who died may not have had the health care that we would give our goats here in the U.S. Perhaps they would have survived here. But the study at least suggests a serious risk associated with decreasing feed later in pregnancy. It made me very leery of reducing feed amounts in later pregnancy.


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