# Need Help with Sick Goat!!!Quick!!



## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

I have a five year old Alpine doe. She kidded on the 7th of March. She typically has very long labors, often an hour or two between kids also. This year she had her typical all day long labor, and then the first one was breech, she managed to get her out with a little help from me. The second one came two to three hours later just fine. Afterwards I noticed along with her placenta she also had a very long string of tissue mass with little globs (for lack of better word) of tissue hanging off of it. She seemed rather fine afterwards. Every so slowly she has been standing off in the shed by herself, she is now not eating her grain. She is not interested in the hay when I put it out, instead she goes right back into the shed. Her milk production has dropped dramaticaly over the last couple of days.

I have given her antibiotics along with probiotics. I've also used the corn syrup molasses mixture to treat for ketosis. Does anyone have any idea what could be wrong with her? I've pretty much ruled out mastitis, she doesn't seem to have a fever to touch.

I'm wondering if it is possible she had a deformed baby and that a portion of it stayed inside of her?

Thanks for all of your help in advance. I'd like to be able to treat her and get her back on her feet, because at this right she won't be around much longer.

Denise


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Please read - I know it is long but it is really good info.

I am also moving this to caprine special care for more traffic.

Hypocalcemia Articles by Sue Reith

• HYPOCALCEMIA Adjusting the diet to avoid it and to support fetal growth • HYPOCALCEMIA: HOW TO RECOGNIZE IT, TREAT IT, AND PREVENT IT

HYPOCALCEMIA Adjusting the diet to avoid it and to support fetal growth (Revised January 2004) By Sue ReithThe following information is designed to help goat owners avoid hypocalcemia in their pregnant does. 
I encourage the reader to give the veterinarian a copy if one is called to help with a doe that shows signs of it. The fact is, does that come down with hypocalcemia are often raised as pets, family milkers, and/or show stock, and are likely to live where the only available vets are dog/cat specialists that don't routinely treat goats. 
When presented with a pregnant doe that's exhibiting its classic symptoms, reading this information might help the attending vet to recognize hypocalcemia so that before making a diagnosis he/she can ask the owner a very simple question: "What type of feed, and how much of it, is this doe eating?"

HYPOCALCEMIA: HOW TO RECOGNIZE IT, TREAT IT, AND PREVENT IT (Revised

January 2004) By Sue ReithFor those who don't know about hypocalcemia, it's a life-threatening condition that shows up when a doe's either pregnant or in milk, but eating an imbalanced diet that doesn't provide her with enough calcium for both herself and her growing fetuses, or for milk production if she's already lactating.

Symptoms: Hypocalcemia can show up in a doe any time in the last 2 months of pregnancy, right up to the due date, as well as while she's in milk. Most cases are seen in does that were routinely fed a hefty grain ration along with their hay during the 1st 3 months of pregnancy. The problem can start as early as the 4th month of gestation. 
When it does, the first thing you'll notice is that she stops eating her grain. Soon after that she won't want her hay either. If during those 1st 3 months she was fed grass hay instead of alfalfa along with her grain, the chances are especially good that you'll run into this. If concerned enough to take her temperature when you see those first signs it'll be normal (102.3), but soon after that it'll drop to sub-normal (below 102). 
Start corrective steps right away or she'll weaken fast and get wobbly, lethargic and depressed. If not treated by that point she'll go down and not get up again.

I first went through this back in the 1970's. When I fed, I noticed that one of my does was just lying there instead of hopping right up and eating with the rest, but I foolishly assumed she simply wasn't hungry and was only lying around because she was uncomfortable from lugging around all those babies inside of her. It took me a day or two to get concerned about her, and when I took her to the local dog/cat vet he didn't recognize what was wrong, so her turned for help to his veterinary guide (which did, and still does, lack any information on how to recognize and treat hypocalcemia), concluding from what he'd read in there that she had pregnancy toxemia. So he put her on IV Ringers until she died.

To avoid going through that expensive heartache, here's what you, the owner, can do yourself to repair your own doe when you see these first signs of hypocalcemia. 
The meds dosages I'll mention are for full-sized dairy-type does, weighing ~ 120-150 lbs average, so if your doe is smaller you'll need to adjust doses for her:

Treatment: Right away (and trust me, speed is important!), give her Nutridrench or oral propylene glycol to replace that source of energy she lost when she stopped eating. This will prevent ketosis, a life-threatening metabolic condition caused by an animal's having to live on its own body reserves once it has stopped eating food. If this isn't corrected fast she can sink into a coma and die.

She should get either the dose of Nutridrench recommended for her weight, or 60cc (2oz) of propylene glycol, 2x daily for 2 days to restore her, and then 30cc (1oz) of that each day from then on until she's eating right again, to prevent/reverse ketosis.

Now let's turn to the primary problem, hypocalcemia. The fact is, we all need calcium for muscle tone. The heart is a muscle, and to keep it beating right the doe has to get enough calcium. So as soon as she's been treated to prevent ketosis, start her on replacement therapy to bring her calcium level back up to normal. 
If you're having a vet help you with the repair process he may want to use Calcium gluconate for that. But CMPK will do a better job, because while calcium gluconate is just calcium, CMPK also has magnesium, phosphorus, and potassium in it, and they all work as a team to make the calcium available faster and more efficiently to the body, speeding up her recovery. 
Also, there's a risk in using calcium gluconate by itself to treat hypocalcemia. "Too much of a good thing" can be harmful, and giving it too fast or in too big a dose will make her heart beat too rapidly, which could cause heart failure. When CMPK is used instead, the potassium in it slows down the heart rate, balancing out the calcium so the heartbeat will stay normal as the calcium gets returned to her system. 
Important! Warm CMPK to body temp before injecting it! CMPK injectable is given sub-cutaneously (just below the skin) in the area between the last rib and the pelvis, at the rate of 30cc SQ, about every 2 hours until the calcium the doe needs has been replaced. We dose this way so we can continuously watch for improvement and easily tell when her system has returned to normal.

To check her progress, we compare her heart rate to that of a normal doe (70 - 80 beats per minute). At the beginning of the hypocalcemic doe's treatment her heart rate will be slower than that of the normal doe because she's so calcium deficient. When her heart rate is back up to the same speed as that of the normal doe, and she appears bright and alert and wants to eat again, things are going well. 
However, giving your hypocalcemic doe just a single dose, or a few doses, of the CMPK will ONLY balance her calcium level FOR THE MOMENT, but as those babies continue to grow they'll drain more and more calcium from her, so after her heart rate's back up to normal it's very important to keep giving her DAILY MAINTENANCE DOSES OF ~ 30cc (1oz) of CMPK UNTIL SHE FRESHENS.

If you see signs that she's weakening again any time before then you'll have to increase the dose, but only temporarily, until she's OK once more. In my view the injectable form of CMPK is the best choice for treatment of the debilitated doe, because with it she can be dosed accurately, without a struggle. The problem is that while this form is the easiest to use and relatively inexpensive (about $4/1000ml in the catalogs), it requires a veterinary prescription. 
The down side of this is that most veterinarians don't seem to know anything about hypocalcemia, nor understand why your doe needs continued doses of calcium. So being somewhat cautious they will only want to prescribe or provide a single dose, or perhaps two. That's like trying to fix a leaking dam by putting your finger in the hole. 
All the more reason why you might want to share this article with your veterinarian of choice. (Editor's note: Many owners report their veterinarians refuse to even read this information. In that case, to save the life of your doe I urge you to go online fast and order the oral CMPK gel from a livestock catalog.

The gel, a non-Rx item readily obtained OTC and in catalogs, is a paste, and once placed in the doe's mouth will sit there until swallowed. One tube of 400gm (~14 oz) CMPK gel (~ $4) will provide a hypocalcemic doe with about fourteen 30cc doses. 
If unable to find that, order the oral liquid CMPK or MFO instead, as they will both work well, dosed with a 35cc syringe. An udder canula attached to it will turn it into an oral dosing syringe. One word of caution: When using the oral liquid CMPK, it's important to dispense no more than one swallow at a time to keep the doe from choking, which could lead to aspiration pneumonia.
Either of these products can be shipped to you by next-day-air. If you need information about online catalogs contact me at [email protected].)

Once you get her calcium level back to normal and she starts eating again, your doe will probably still refuse grain for a while. Don't worry, because she's still instinctively trying to fix her calcium-deficient condition, and she's the best judge of that. She'll want to eat it again soon, and when she does it's wise to give her just a small amount of it at each feeding.
If she's not eager at first to eat her hay again either (grass is OK to start with if that's what you have available, but alfalfa or alfalfa pellets would be a really good choice now) it'd be a good idea to bring her some of her favorite browse... I feed Salal and wild huckleberry up here in the Northwest, both of which stay green all winter... In your area there must be something yummy, and non-toxic of course.

If you don't know her favorite, offer her a variety and let her choose. Keep in mind while treating your hypocalcemic doe that if she's been lying down for 3 or more days in this weakened condition you'll have to get her back up on her feet ASAP. Otherwise her leg muscles will lose strength fast and won't be able to support her if she tries to stand up on her own. There's also a chance that if she stays down for too long her knee joints will begin to 'ankylose' (freeze permanently in the bent position). This isn't reversible.

To avoid these problems you can make a 'sling' and attach it to a pulley fastened to an overhead beam in the barn. About every 2 hours crank her up in the sling so she can touch the ground comfortably with her feet, move around, and exercise her leg muscles, and then lower it again so she can rest for a while... Repeat the process, 2 hours up and 2 hours down, until her legs can support her weight again. 
This usually takes only a few days, but in her pregnant condition she might take longer to get her strength back. If you want a picture of a sling I have one in my archives, at [email protected]

Prevention: You'd probably like to know how your doe got hypocalcemia in the first place, and how you can keep her from getting it again. Well, it's got to do with what you were feeding her before, during and right after she was bred. 
If she was either under a year old or still being milked when you bred her, she should go right on getting the alfalfa and grain ration you were giving her to support her growth or milk production. 
But if she was full grown and not in milk when bred, she should have been getting grass hay with no grain, or grass and some alfalfa with a little bit of grain at that time, and for the first 3 months of her pregnancy, because her body wasn't supporting any fetal growth yet.

Lots of owners don't realize that in those first 3 months all the fetuses do is develop their parts, and they're no bigger than newborn kittens. At the end of that 3rd month, though, the fully formed babies start to grow fast, and they keep that up for the entire last 2 months.
To provide for all this growth they need more and more calcium. To make that happen you'll have to start feeding a small amount of alfalfa along with the grass hay, and right along with the alfalfa, give her a handful of grain at each meal.

These amounts should be increased slowly over those next 2 months so that by the time she freshens she's getting all alfalfa, and about a cup of grain in the morning and a cup at night. 
Once she's making milk she should get all the alfalfa she can eat, and depending on the amount she gives each time the grain should be increased so that she gets enough to help produce the milk but not make her fat.
A pound of grain is usually recommended for every 8 lbs (~ a gallon) of milk. I add alfalfa pellets to a doe's grain to keep her busy while I milk her out. As her milk production tapers off, both the alfalfa and the grain should be cut back, so that by the time she's dry she's only getting grass hay and no grain at all until the whole process begins again.

Cause: This hypocalcemia (calcium deficiency) problem that can show up any time in the last 2 months of the doe's pregnancy is easy to explain. It has to do with ratios. Most of us know that a ratio of 2 parts hydrogen to 1 part oxygen (H2:0) provides water. If that ratio isn't met, you don't have water. And people in copper-deficient areas might be aware that for copper to be available to goats the soil in which the feed is grown must contain a ratio of 10 parts copper to 1 part molybdenum (10:1). 
Well, for calcium to be available to our does in late gestation or milk, a ratio of at least 2 parts calcium to 1 part phosphorus (2:1) is needed. When this ratio isn't met, calcium isn't available. So&#8230; If she doesn't get that 2:1 balance of (at least) 2 parts calcium (in the alfalfa) to (no more than) 1 part phosphorus (in the grain) in her diet, she won't have enough calcium to meet her needs and she'll become hypocalcemic. And it goes without saying that the more fetuses she is carrying, greater the potential for hypocalcemia becomes.

Let's review&#8230; Excepting for yearlings that still need calcium to grow, and does that are still in milk, when a doe is bred she should be eating grass hay with no grain, or grass and some alfalfa with a little bit of grain, because those tiny fetuses in her are in the early stage of development and not yet growing fast inside of her.

Unfortunately, many new goat owners (myself included, early on) start out feeding lots of grain as soon as the doe's bred, thinking that this will help her babies to grow big and healthy, when in fact it actually destroys the 2:1 balance needed to produce calcium, and puts her into a calcium-deficient state right off the bat!

In trying to do the right thing, the owner has taken the first step towards hypocalcemia, because when they reach the end of that 3rd month and have finished developing all their parts, those tiny fetuses just take off and start growing fast. And suddenly their mom is not just supporting her own needs, but also the needs of her fast growing babies, so she has to come up with lots of calcium she didn't require before! 
Her amazing instinct tells her to listen to her body fast and cut back on the grain to meet the 2:1 ratio she needs to free up the calcium from the hay, or else! But unfortunately, when she quits eating her grain at this late stage so she can fix the calcium-deficiency problem, she loses her source of energy at a time when she needs it more than ever. So now, on top of being calcium deficient she also finds herself energy-deprived. 
She starts to weaken fast, gets lethargic and wobbly, and goes down&#8230; And owners and consulting vets stand around scratching their heads, not knowing what led up to this. They'll probably offer her Nutridrench or propylene glycol to prevent the ketosis she's headed for, but they don't catch-on that the reason she keeps on getting weaker and weaker anyway is because even though they're replacing her lost energy the imbalanced early feeding program has left her too low on calcium to take care of her needs now.
So they fail to give her the missing calcium she must have for her own muscle tone as well as for fetal development. No calcium, no muscle tone, no heart pumping, dead goat.

This article is the result of my search through the various popular veterinary guidebooks, only to find that other than an occasional reference to the word 'hypocalcemia' itself, there is little else said about it. While it's a relatively easy-to-correct metabolic condition, oddly I can't find any description of what causes it, how to recognize it, how to treat it, or how to prevent it! 
This despite the fact that it appears to be the most common dysfunction seen in does in late gestation and/or lactation, the only other one coming close to it being chlamydial abortion.

I've been trying hard to encourage the veterinary authors of these books to update their work to include this information, but progress is slow. While most goat management coverage in our current resource books is quite helpful, in this particular area I see deficiencies such as the following: (1) In the Merck Veterinary Manual In the 8th Edition on P.744, in the 'Pregnancy Toxemia in Ewes' section, the word, 'hypocalcemia' is mentioned only once, in a single sentence, under 'Diagnosis''. 
It reads: "Hypocalcemia, uncomplicated by pregnancy toxemia, should always be considered for recumbent late-gestation sheep." Excellent! But that's the end of it! There's not a word on how to identify hypocalcemia OR how to treat it! 
Then later, on P.1450, in the 'Disease Management Interaction: Goats' section, under 'Nutrition', we see, "A common problem is overfeeding grain to goats in late gestation." Perfect! They're right there at the threshold of hypocalcemia! But while they give lip service to the word 'hypocalcemia' on P.744, on P.1450 they're staring right at its cause and don't even know it.

They aren't connecting the dots between the danger of overfeeding grain to goats in late gestation, and the fact that it wrecks the necessary 2:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus, making calcium unavailable to them. 
Instead they state rather lamely, "Goats store fat preferentially in the abdominal cavity; this can lead to problems at parturition and to pregnancy toxemia."! 
Then, in the ultimate irony, that's followed up by a second statement; "Pet wethers fed on substantial amounts of grain are prone to urinary calculi.
Reducing grain consumption&#8230; keeping the calcium to phosphorus to 2:1&#8230; will help." Good grief! They clearly have the tools, but don't know how to use them!

(Editor's note: As you will find later in this article, the well-known livestock nutritionist, Dr M.E. Ensminger, points out that both hypocalcemia and urinary calculi result from failure to maintain that 2:1 calcium to phosphorus balance in the diet.) (2) While the section on Goats' Dietary Needs in a popular goat management reference book called Goat Medicine, by Smith and Sherman, does a good job of pointing out the importance of a diet containing 2 parts calcium for each 1part phosphorus, the authors fail to apply that concept in other parts of the book where it's needed. 
For example, in their 'Metabolic Disorders Appearing in Late Gestation' section they use the word 'hypocalcemia', but don't tell the reader (who often has no clue about a pregnant/ lactating goat's nutritional needs) that the way to avoid the mysterious hypocalcemia they've mentioned is to feed that same 2 parts calcium for every 1 part phosphorus diet that they already said was so important in their Goats' Dietary Needs section, thus freeing up the extra calcium she needs during gestation.
Instead, they follow up the hypocalcemia reference with a rhetorical comment about some sort of chemical imbalance within the hypocalcemic goat that makes calcium unavailable to her.
Oddly, in that same section on Metabolic Disorders there's yet another comment, this time that pregnant goats need "2 parts 'forage' to 1 part 'concentrate'", a misleading statement at best, and a recipe for disaster at worst, since many goat owners have only grass for forage, and grass has almost no calcium in it. (3) John Matthews, in his Diseases of the Goat, talks about 'hypocalcaemia', advising that it may appear in late pregnancy... AND in any stage of lactation&#8230; An important piece of information!
But he, too, misses the simple cause, a dietary imbalance that prevents the uptake of calcium from the feed. He relies instead on an unexplained "failure in the homeostatic mechanisms to meet the increased demand for calcium". But then in his discussion of 'Hypocalcaemia' he does redeem himself somewhat by saying that: "All recumbent or comatose goats should be treated as potentially hypocalcaemic and given calcium." Go, John Matthews!

So&#8230; Despite the importance these authors seem to place upon hypocalcemia as a potential diagnosis for late-gestation does that are down, none of them give us any clinical signs with which to identify it, nor any information on how to treat it, nor (equally as important) any suggestions on how to prevent it!

Yet as I previously noted, it's clearly the most common reason that does in late pregnancy or in milk 'go down'. Well, it's no wonder veterinarians in the field can't recognize hypocalcemia when they see it, when the authors of the reference books they use as guides don't either. 
And the problem gets even worse when goat owners interpret statements made by veterinarians about the danger of feeding excessive grain (ex: Merck, P.1450, Nutrition) to mean that it would be best to feed NO grain, either to does in late gestation, or to wethers, because the 2:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus is also lost when grain is removed from the diet, so feeding NO grain is just as harmful as feeding too much grain.

In my view, the reason these reference book authors use rhetoric, instead of providing information on diagnosis, treatment and cure to explain hypocalcemia, and the reason as well that the veterinarians in the field are comfortable relying solely on what they can find in the books to come up with diagnoses, is that neither the authors of those books nor the veterinarians who read them have sufficient nutritional background to know otherwise. 
Sadly, an understanding of the principles of nutrition is not taught in schools of veterinary medicine. If it were required in order to earn a DVM I'm confident that this inability to properly diagnose hypocalcemia would quickly disappear.

Unfortunately for the goats (which after all are the focus of those reference books), when presented with a case of hypocalcemia, the total absence of information about its diagnosis, treatment and cure leaves the veterinarians nothing to work with excepting such off-the-mark diagnoses as Pregnancy Toxemia and Pregnancy Ketosis, for which diagnosis, prevention and cure ARE described in the books. 
And even worse, when the vet's diagnosis is made and a savvy client asks if this could possibly be a calcium deficiency, the usual response will be, "This goat's problem has nothing to do with calcium." The predictable treatment regimen then will be: "Treat with propylene glycol for ketosis, and get the babies out fast to save the life of the doe." To accomplish that a C-section or, even more disastrous, a shot of Lutalyse to abort the doe, is suggested.
But that won't work because while the Lutalyse puts the doe into labor, without calcium the uterus has no muscle tone available to expel the fetuses.

(Editor's note: Ironically, the clinical signs of hypocalcemia are easy to spot, but are identified in the guide books as clinical signs of the diseases listed above instead, which is why the recommended treatment for those diseases commonly results in the death of the doe.) 
Even after a veterinarian has declared pregnancy toxemia to be the culprit, on those occasions when I am consulted by an unsure owner and explain how I would treat the doe if it were mine, those owners have never lost either the doe or the kids in giving the 'down' doe CMPK instead of taking such drastic measures, and does treated to reverse hypocalcemia with CMPK routinely go on to freshen normally.

If my goat had this problem and I asked a veterinarian to help with it, I would expect that vet to work with me in treating the doe with CMPK before even considering anything as drastic as C-section or abortion! Many well-respected dairy goat nutritionists and veterinarians have mentioned hypocalcemia in their work over the years, but most haven't talked about what causes it, which is so important to its treatment. 
Since livestock management is not their chosen field, maybe they assume that all dairy goat people instinctively know how to feed their pregnant stock correctly?

Following is an introduction to some of those whose contributions have helped us understand the dietary needs of our goats, and how to make corrections if these needs aren't being met: Dr M.E. Ensminger, the well-known livestock nutritionist whose work has helped many of our experts figure out what to put in livestock feeds, says in his 'bible' of livestock nutrition, Feeds & Nutrition - Complete, published in 1978, that Alfalfa (he calls it lucerne), a legume, "is high in calcium, protein, and carotene, and in many other minerals and vitamins", and adds, "legumes are excellent calcium sources, while grasses and silages tend to be substantially lower in calcium content". 
Both bone growth and lactation (and muscle tone as well, BTW) require substantial quantities of these minerals. In his words, "If there is a severe imbalance of them during pregnancy and early lactation, 'milk fever' (hypocalcemia) may occur."

"Therefore, in order to prevent these problems, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus should be at least 2:1." (2 parts calcium: 1 part phosphorus.) (FYI: He also states: "In males an imbalance of calcium to phosphorus often leads to the development of urinary calculi.) Finally, for those of us who rely on grass hay to feed our goats, Dr Ensminger says that where additional calcium is needed, ground limestone is usually the mineral of choice. 
But if the animals need both calcium and phosphorus the best choice for providing these 2 essential minerals is di-calcium phosphate (2 parts calcium: 1 part phosphorus). Adding support to Dr Ensminger's findings, mineral requirement charts in books on nutritional guidelines for humans state that a symptom of excess phosphorus intake is "decreased blood calcium", and a symptom of deficiency in phosphorus intake is "general weakness".

Both, of course, mean the same thing, since without calcium there is no muscle tone. This completely supports Dr Ensminger's findings that a severe imbalance either way of the 2 parts calcium to 1 part phosphorus requirement in the diet makes calcium unavailable, and the result of that is lack of muscle tone (ie: general weakness).

Another knowledgeable person with whom I've had the good fortune to come into contact was a veterinarian named Dr Robert A. Jackson, who lived in Southern California where I first began to raise dairy goats, and who was what you could call 'a goat vet's goat vet'. He and Alice Gaye Hall, a well-known dairy goat breeder/judge, often co-wrote dairy goat management articles. In one of them, printed in the July '82 Dairy Goat Guide and called 'What to Know about Medications', the readers are told that it's important for goat owners to keep calcium in their cupboards because goats often come down with "eclampsia, which is much like milk fever". (Just as others have, they referred to hypocalcemia as eclampsia.)

While they don't spell out why it happens, they do observe that a calcium deficiency (hypocalcemia) sometimes exists in the pregnant/lactating goat, and that the owner should be prepared to treat it when it shows up


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

Sounds like she needs calcium- Does she have a temperature? Is she moving slow, seeming kind of weak in her rear legs?
I have a doe who is unusually sensative to calcium- I had to supplement her for a month before her kidding and have continued after. The symptoms with her are that she lies down a great deal and has little appetite. 
Anyway that is the first thing that occured to me- if she needs calium, she will respond pretty fast.

Well Stacey You certainly trumped my input- but that is a good article.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well actually I like you approach. Whenever a doe in milk goes down I panick so I just reverted to that artical. :shrug:


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

I have not taken an internal temperature on her so I'm not sure. She is definetly getting weak in the rear legs. When I had her on the stand tonight I noticed that her rear legs were quivering. 

I noticed that I can only get CMPK on Valley Vet and that with a prescription from a vet. I've actually never had to work with a vet in my area so I had to make some phone calls to other fellow goat people in the area who have lived here a while (we are military). I have a couple of names of vets that another lady who has goats has worked with. There is not a lot of goats in this area though so not many vets are experienced with them. I will definetely print that article out and hand it to her if she wishes to read it. Hopefully they will just be willing to take my word at it. 

Thank you all so much. Now I'm going to die with anticipation about it. It's night and there isn't anything I can do. I don't even have any nutridrench. I hope she will hang on a little bit longer until I can get her some help.

Denise


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

you can get CMPK from jeffers http://www.jefferslivestock.com Try also Tractor Supply Company if you have one near you


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Cal -c- fresh also will work. Try a feed store.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

I tried Jeffers but couldn't find anything on their site when I punched CMPK in their search box. Should I be trying a different search or something. The only feed store here that MIGHT have it is closed now. It's after ten PM.

Densie


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I had a doe that did this about 2 weeks ago. She went totally off feed, starry look in her eyes, layed down ALOT, ans wasn't drinking at all. I didn't notice her back legs quivering but her milk production dropped dramaticly. I gave her Arnica, Pulsatilla (both homeopathics) Lots of vitamin C. Nutri Drench, Calcium drench, vit-B shots. I also bought some high quality Alfalfa hay which was the only thing she would eat for several days. I sure hope you can get your doe through this.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I just did a seach and it came right up. If CMPK doesn't work try C.M.P.K. Gel

Make sure you are on http://www.jefferslivestock.com not the pet site


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh, and I tested her for Ketosis with the granules and it came up negative.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

ACtually it's the injectable CMPK I can't get from Jeffers that I can get from Valley Vet. I read on your article that works best, but I suppose anything would do right now. It still maybe be faster for me to have a vet come out tomorrow and administer some type of calcium. I suppose that anything at this point would be better than nothing.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

If you have some Tums try to give her quite a few of those.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ah yes sorry I didn't clarrify that it was the gel. 

If your vet can get you some form of calcium that is what she needs 


(ps. welcome to The Goat Spot)


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

Wish I could give her some tums but I used them all up last pregnancy, and thankfully I haven't had to have any since, but that doesn't help my goat. I've been sitting here thinking of what kinds of things I could give her that wouldn't upset her tummy too much but would be high enough in calcium to help her. She's not typically a picky eater, but under the circumstances I think it would be difficult to giver her anything out of the ordinary.

Denise


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

How much of the CMPK GEL do you think I would need for a goat as opposed to a cow?

Denise


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

a couple Tablespoons. 

I know with the Cal -C Fresh I was able to give 1 Tablespoon once a day for a couple days with great results. 

The CMPK has more nutrients in it to help the body absorb the calcium (the lack of absorption is part of the problem)


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

The feed store near me here might have some type of calcium supplement I can pick up tomorrow. Would even something that is made for a horse be ok? This particular feed store deals with a lot of people who own horses. Thankfully, the owner of this store also owns a dairy so he does have items in there for cows.

Denise


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

I know I also saw in that same feed store an electrolyte powder made by manna pro for goats, but is this the same or close to like a nutridrench?
Is there any type of drench similar to nutridrench that is particulalry made for horses? I'm asking because I know when I get in there most everything I see is going to be made for horses and I just need to be aware of what I'm looking at.

Denise


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

One more question. Once I'm able to get her up and going again, do you think I'll be able to get her milk production back up?

Denise


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Just found this post, how is your doe? Do you have any "human" calcium pills? I think you could give her those?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

if they have beaf drench that will work - same stuff. Or you can get from the food store liquid childrens vitamines. Nutri drench is just a whole host of vitamines.

Yes if you are able to bring her back quickly she should start producing milk again.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Denise, I had a doe that I almost lost but I called a old friend (before I found these forums). She told me to go take a handful of MY calcium pill's and crush them up and just give them to her and let her have as much as she wants. She ate them up and she pulled out of it. I do know if I did not get that in her when I did I would of lost her. She had retained a baby, 20 hours after her others were born. Her and the baby were fine and still are. That happened three years ago. Good Luck


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

I went to the feed store and said you have to be careful about giving too much calcium so he recommended a paste, typically used for calves, that contains a whole host of vitamins and minerals. He also gave me a probiotic that has vitamins and minerals in it. I've been giving that to her along with kool aid with crushed tums mixed in. 

The two vets I tried to call this morning were both in surgery. AT last after I had purchased everything mentioned above a vet called me back and said that she would give the feed store the go ahead to release the CMPK injectable to me. So now I have it 500ml worth and I just want to verify the dosage, it just seems an awful lot.

I just wanted to verify that 30cc of the CMPK injectible is correct. I have only syringes that hold 3cc, this means ten of them every two hours?

Denise


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## FarmGirl18 (Oct 5, 2007)

Yep it is 30cc, but you really need to get a bigger syringe, cuz that would be alot of pokes. Best to do like 15 cc in each side.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

Ok, I have a 22 ga. needle and I used it but I think it's going to be way too small. For starters it takes way too long to suck up 30cc of the injection. Secondly when I gave her the shot I had to go very very slowly or else it would pool beneath the skin. So I went to back to the feed store (waaaay too much running around today) and picked up some 18 ga. neeles. Does this sound about right?

The poor thing was so tired just standing on the milk stand for her shot. I'm still pumping in the vitamins, minerals, and probiotics. Also still giving her the koolaid water, and I think this is all she is consuming at this point.

Thank you all for your help. I would have never guessed in a million years that she had a calcium deficiency.

Denise


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

18 gauge is good. Since you are giving it SQ it is going to leave a bubble under the skin. It should go down pretty quick.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

18 guage is a whole lot better!!! It goes much faster and a lot less bubble. Does anybody have an idea about how many shots will bring her around? I know it can depend on how depleted they are. At what point have each of you noticed them began to change for the better? My daughter was able to get about 60cc of koolaid in her when we gave her first shot. She refused to have any koolaid with her second. However, she did have a pee on the milk stand when we were giving her her second shot. It was the most pee that she has had in a while I think. 

Am I the only one that absolutely hates giving shots??? :doh: 

Denise


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I really have no problem giving shots. I usually give them some food on the milk stand and they don't even notice.

Sounds like you are doing everything you should be. Do you have any vitamin B?


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

No I don't have any of the injectable kind. Both of the paste's that I'm giving her have different types of vitamin B.

Denise


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok, sounds good. Vit B will help her get her appitite back.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

you should see results right away.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Yeah, you should see results pretty quickly. My doe took about 2 days to start looking somewhat normal again.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

I'm really concerned that there is something more wrong with her. Her discharge is not the normal looking bloody discharge you would see after a birth. I'm going to try and take a picture of it next time I go out to giver her shots. This is a white tissue looking kind of discharge, mixed with blood. Wish I could have gotten a picture of what came out of her after she had her babies. It had the placenta attached to it but it was definitely not the placenta. 

Is there anything special I'll need to do to the picture before posting it?

Denise


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Do you have an account with Photobucket? If not just send me the photos in an email and I will post them asap. [email protected]


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

did you put her on a round of penicillin?


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Does it smell bad?


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

I did giver her a round of penicillin already when she first started showing signs that she wasn't feeling well. Yesterday while I was in teh shed with her I noticed that she was pushing while laying down, but it produced a very small amount of soft poop so I didn't think anything of it. Today I caught her laying out in the sun (something she hasn't been wanting to do) but while she was laying there she was doing some pushing, looked fairly heavy duty stuff. In a typical birth as I said it could take her two to three hours to push out a baby (maybe poor uterine muscles?). 

Come to think of it this white discharge does look more like what you would see before they birth. I'm getting ready to head out and giver her another round of calcium I'll take pics.

I'll take a closer whiff of it when I go out to giver her shots. From a distance I haven't noticed any smell, even when I'm up close for the shots I haven't noticed a smell.

Denise


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

You don't need to get too close lol. If it smelled bad you would know it when you were just standing next to her. 

I think I would give the vet another call. If it is an infection he can give you some stronger antibiotics than pen. My girl had an infection but it didn't smell bad... so it doesn't always smell bad.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

If you feel comfortable going in, you probably should to make sure there isn't another kid in there.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

Ok Chelsey I sent you a private email with the pictures attached. 

I absolutely hate going in after they have given birth, but it isn't beyond my capability. I'm thinking in her weakened state, if I really think she has another one in there I might have to pull it out anyway.

Denise


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I'll get them loaded in just a sec..


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok here are the photos Denise sent me.

Doesn't she have a pretty face?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

you are right it does look prebirth or infection.

She doesn't look puffy like prekidding, and she kidded a month ago. I am more apt to believe she has an infection. LA 200 or penicillin would be my choice at this time.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh, it was a month ago? I must have missed that. Yes there is probably NOT another kid in there. I too would go with infection. Do you have any Vitamin C Powder or pills, for people?


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

She kidded March 7th. I have PenOne Pro. How much should she be given (maybe I wasn't giving enough last time) and will it be ok while I'm giving the calcium as well? 

I've given her five injections now of the calcium and so far no real turn around.

What bout the pushing? Could the infection make her feel as though she needs to push? Or could it perhaps be that she has so little poop that she feels she needs to push for it to come out? Not every time she pushes does she actually get any poop out.

Denise


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

this is out of my league really but if her stools are hard because she isn't drinking enough she maybe constipated. 

Penicillin G I give at at rate of 1cc per 20lbs and you need to give it for 5 days (unless you have the long lasting version) Giving it with the calcium isn't going ot hurt her.


What is she eating? is she drinking?


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

She is totally off feed and water. The only thing she will take is kool aid which we have been giving her every two hours. She will drink about 400 cc every two hours. 

Denise


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

have you consulted a vet? 

I fear she has something internal that we are not able to see.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Yep. I think it is time to call the vet.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

I did tell the vet pretty much everything. However, the discharge wasn't quite like this at the time, so I didn't mention it. She agreed that it sounded like hypocalcemia. She wanted to see the doe, however I live on the complete opposite side of the city and I told her I would not be able to bring her in at the time. So she called in the prescription for the CMPK without seeing the doe, for which I was thankful.

I definitely had not given her the correct amount of pen. I was only giving her half of that and I had only given it for 3-4 days. I ought to make myself a chart for dosages so I'll always have it handy.

Denise


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I have made charts for several different meds. It makes it alot faster and easier to have the dosage chart hany.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Denise,
I hate to tell you it like this, But if you do not get her to the Vet right away, YOU WILL LOSE HER. 
She needs to be seen by a VET NOW.
I will send prayers to you and her ray: , but she needs a vets attentions now. She is so sweet looking and she just has that look of HELP.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

I also think she needs to see a vet. This sounds kind of like my doe that was sick a couple weeks ago. She didn't have the discharge but she wouldn't eat or drink, was very depressed, and her milk production went way down. She was given heavy duty antibiotics for a very high white count and pulled through fine. It was touch and go for a while though.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

I want to thank you all so much for your help. Sassy is refusing to even take the kool aid and she is very difficult to get up. I've called a friend to come and put her out of her misery. Thankfully she gave us a pretty little doe this year to carry on her line. 

I'm hoping to take a look inside of her after she is dead to view what the problem might have been in her uterus. For some strange reason she is still trying to push. She has hardly any strength left.

Again thank you all so much for your help. I think if I might have sought it sooner it could have benefited her better.

Denise
:tears:


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

Did you take her to a vet???
I'm so sorry that you are having to put her down.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

Yep, she retained baby number three and it was dead and decaying already. My guess is with her super long labors and two to three hours between pushes that she had extremely poor muscle tone, and really it wouldn't have been a good idea to breed her again. Well it was a sad way for her to go but at least now we know. All the calcium int he world wouldn't have helped her. Again thank you all.

Denise


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Long labors are a classic sign of hypecalcemia. The fact that this was typical of this doe means there is something off balence in her diet. she wasnt getting enough calcium before kiddings. If there is more then half an hour between kids i go in because there is more then likely something up. Hypecalcemia is a pretty easy thing to treat. If you dont have any cmpk on hand you can use tums to get some calcium in her. Mix it with a little molasses. the sugar will also give her an energy boost. Anytime you think there may be more dont be afraid to go in, you can usually feel babies even if they are mummified or under developed. I always give 6 cc's of pen to my adult does for five days if i have to go in. I know a lot of people that say dont go in unless you absolutly have to. but i would rather go in and have nothing wrong then not go in and kick myelf for later losing a doe. You can alwasy give antibiotics later. 
I once had a doe go down with hypocalcemis, i thought she was going to die in my arms that night. I was new to the area, couldnt get a hold of a vet or anything, we had n calcium drench. Tums saved her life. Within justa few minutes after giving her four or five tums and a spoonful of mollasses she was up on her own. Before that it took two of us to get her to her feet and even then if we let her go she collapsed. beer also helps, yes beer. Beer has yeast in it and it will help her make milk. 
Im sorry that you ended up losing her, my heart goes out to you and her. Hopefull sime of the things that others have mentioned will hekp you if you have a next time. again im sorry for your loss, oh and welcome to the group.
beth


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Wow, I am surprised she lasted this long. I am so sorry about this. :hug: to you all.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh I am so sorry! 

I to am surprised she held on that long. 

Beth gave some good information. Sounds like you might want to up the calcium in their diet during pregnancy so you don't have to deal with this ever again.

You were brave to go into her, I would have been so nervous. But at least now you have a bit of closure to the whole ordeal.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

The baby had already started to mumify and it smelled awful. I couldn't even try to figure out if it was a boy or girl or if she had a big infection starting in her uterus it just smelled too bad to stay there for very long. The baby did not looked deformed. All I can think of is that poor doe, if only she could have talked. That baby was in there dead for nearly four weeks, yuck.

As far as their diet they receive an 18% grain and all alfalfa hay as well as a salt-mineral lick. I had four does kid this year, three last year, and she is the only one who would give trouble during kidding. What would you suggest to increase the calcium in the future? If this is a problem unique to her do you think this will be hereditary? I definitely want to keep her doe she had this year. There may be a possibility that I may be getting her doe back from last year. Just hope this isn't something that she passes on to her babies.

Well you guys were great. 

Denise


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

NO I do not believe it is passed down from mom to daughter.

YOu can add alfafa hay or pellets as well as some Tums daily.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

i would decrease the protein a little bit, i keep hearing 16% is good, but i feed even less then that, usully twelve to fourteen percent. they seem to do well on it. Your hay has some protein in it as well. I aso have started giving my does free choice local grass hay along with and orchard alfalfa mix hay. They come and go as the please. Roughage is a huge part of the diet, and if your does are like mine they pick out all the leaves in the alfalfa hay and leave the stems, they need that long stem roughage to break everything up. i feed alfalfa pellets rather then hay because with the hay there is so much waste, and At twenty two dollars a bale its not worth it. I tried giving less hay, in theory they would waste less and eat more, no they just got skinny. they get a scoop of alfalfa hay, one scoop per doe one half scoop per dry doe, twice a day. I just put it on top of their hay in the feed bin. 
Also, a good source of minerals is very important. Purina makes a good loose mineral kelp meal is a good way to get minerals into them as well. I have both out free chopice along with baking soda. you may also want to check your selinium and copper in your area. Here in washington we are low o both. I get Bo-Se and they get that two times a year. They also get a little bit of copper every three months or so. Being in washington cocci is trouble here. I have started putting a fewrops of sulmet in my kids' milk every couple of days. My kids then get it in their water once a week up until they are yearlings. Adult does get treated twice a year. 
another thing i have done in the last six months is put the water trough a little ways up the hill about sixty feet from the hay troughs. this way they have to get some excercise just going back and fourth from hay to water. helps to keep them fit and build a little muscle. a fat goat wont breed and she wont kid easily.
This is the basis of my management practices. now im not telling you to do any of this, just some suggestions you may want to try. And like i said a lot of it depend on the area you live in. not everything is good for everyones herd. but there are a few things to think about. 
also im curious to know what your grain mixture is.....i have recently read some interesting facts on corn. im going to post then in another thread on goat frenzy
i hope this helps.
beth


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

WOW, four weeks? I almost lost my doe after 20 hours. I am so sorry that you had to put her down. :tears: She was so beautiful and a very lovely face. :hug: 
If I have a doe that is "pushing" after she is done kidding, I waste no time and I go in. I had a doe kid while I was away from home. When the DH called I loaded the horse up and we headed home. It had been about 4 hours after she kidded and she was still squatting and pushing, so I went in and pulled a 15 lbs doe out that was totally breach. Mom was very tired from all the pushing and if I had waited even overnight I know I would of lost her.


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

She was definitely a trooper and I think she might have lived a couple more days but it was definitely coming down to the wire as we couldn't even force feed her the kool aid anymore. 

The problem was after she had the first two it became difficult to tell if she was still in labor. It was as though the labor had went away but every now and then she would feel as though she had to push. You are right I should have went in but since it was late at night after she pushed the second one out and she takes two to three hours between kids I went to bed and figured I'd see number three out there in the morning if she had another one in there. However in the morning she was no longer pushing, but when another one of my does kidded that next morning she was all over those babies licking them to death. For several days she acted normal getting on the stand to be milked and so on. Then she slowly started being standoffish and staying in the shed and seeming depressed. We gave her the probios and treated her for what I thought might be ketosis. I also gave her antibiotics. Nothing seemed to be working and she kept getting worse. 

I'm not sure if I had gone in yesterday before we shot her if I could have pulled the kid since it was stiff and all four legs were in a running position. I also think she might have died anyway because when we sliced her uterus open black oozed out. She might have pulled through with some heavy duty antibiotics but I don't know. However, I don't think I would have wanted to breed her again because of this problem she has with birthing. If this problem begins to show up in her doelings I'm going to attempt to breed it out but I still want to carry on her line.

Thank you for allowing me to see what you do for a routine. I'm now living in New Mexico but we owned goats while living in New Hampshire and we fed them a 16% grain ration and mostly grass hay. We had no troubles with hypocalcemia there, in fact I had never heard of it till just now. 

I'm curious about providing them with loose salt free choice. Can it be table salt? Or should it be a different kind and where can I get a quanitity enough to suit my money. I have loose minerals but we are currently top dressing their grain rations with that. I would like to provide that free choice also but didn't want to spend the money for the feeders designed for that. Are there other ways of putting it out free choice using something I already have on hand?

Thanks again for all the information.

Farewell Sassy you served us well.

Denise


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I use a feeder that was less then 4.00 from jeffers. You can use a feed dish that hangs on the fence or can be nailed to the wall so it can't be tipped over.

I purchase salt blocks from my feed store. You can get really large ones - 50# maybe??? or small brick size ones.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

i have a friend that invented some really neet mmineral feeders. We are going to use them soon when we get our new barns. She took a four foot six inch pvc pipe and attached it to a wall with the metal strap type things that are easy to take down so she can clean it. She then got a cap for the pipe, if your feeders are in the barn then you dont need the cap. She took one of those Y type pvc pieces and sawed off the bottem and one side she then sanded th rough edges and put a cap on the bottem. she pours the mineral down through the top and it falls as the goats eat it. they cant spill it and cant get their feet in it. We are going to do the same thing for alfalfa pellets to free feed them. its easy to take down and clean and you can keep them really full and only have to fill them once in awhile. as for the salt i wouldnt give them table salt. I work at a feed store and i think our fifty lb iodized salt bricks are eight dollars. they are really cheap. With the loose mineral its twelve dollars for a twenty five lb bag. kelp is a lot more but so worth it.

beth


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## baabaamilker (Jan 25, 2008)

Too bad you can't get a picture. It sounds so easy to make. I'm just having a hard time picture the Y type pvc that you are talking about, and how it is that she sawed off the bottom. I'd really be interested in knowing more about this. Does she have hers outside? This is where I would be placing mine. We don't get a whole lot of rain here, about 8 inches a year but it all falls from July to September, so some type of protection would be needed. The goat's shelter is not tall enough for me to put a four foot piece in there, but I might be able to get a smaller piece in there. I now only have three goats who would be eating it.

Denise


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

ok i found another set of pictures, this is where my friend got the idea for the mineral feeder....
http://www.freewebs.com/cottoneyeddoes/ ... ctures.htm
she has sawed off the piece that sticks up so its easier for the goats to get in, 
just scroll down a bit. there is probably about two inches left on that part. She also sawed off the part that goes down so its shorter.

beth


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