# A few ?'s....Advice appreciated!



## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

So I was just reading an old thread (sticky I think) on milking....boy was that awesome...so many different ways to do it! But now I have a few questions  Sorry for the long post!

I read that some people feed on the stand and some don't....I cannot imagine NOT feeding on the stand....my does start acting up the SECOND they are out of grain! I need some advice on how to encourage more calm behaviors...

First is Heidi....she is a five year old experienced milker, however....here is the problem...when I got her last year,she was in milk but only being milked once a day. Ok, no problem....I was brand new,never touched a teat in my life,so once a day was good.  Well, I didn't have the right equipment,so I was giving the milk to my chickens and watering my flowers with it.  I was getting all excited to finally try some milk myself, WHEN MY HUBBY thought he would give her a *treat* of grain and gave her twice the amount she would normally have!! Well,needless to say, the next day she was down and in a mess of scours. Thanks to TGS, I was able to save her  BUT I had to dry her off, so no milk  She almost died on me!! 

So now, it's been since last August since she has been milked. She gets put on the stand for her hoof care but since she got pregnant ( she had twin doelings on May 2nd)she dances HORRIBLY on the stand! I can't get near her teats without her flipping out  How do I fix this?? When she kidded, she wouldn't let me out of her sight??? and now I can't milk her??? 

So that is Doe #1....here is Doe # 2's story...

She is a Kinder, a FF I believe...she is two years old and had twin doelings on May 4th. Great mom,but a little over zealous  She also goes on the stand for hoof care and whatever, but when i trim her hooves....she lays down on me  Her teats are small so it will take me a while to get used to trying to milk her...well, that and her attitude  Any suggestions?

And finally Doe #3... she is a polled yearling doe (3/4 Nubian 1/4 Lamancha)
She was not bred last fall (I felt she was small and I am new to goats so thought it'd be better to just breed the older does) She will get on the stand, no problem....how should I "train" her now for milking? I will be breeding her in the fall.

Thanks for anyone who had the patience to read this long post!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

is Doe 1 in milk now? couldnt properly decifer from your post if she was still pregnant or had kidded.

Doe 2 - I had one who would sit on me as I milked. So I would hold up her leg and milk. I also dont tolerate bad behavior and they get a good whack. It only took a couple min and she would stand good for me. If this doesnt work for you then you can also try this. Take some baling twine an run it under the goat near her front legs, bring up and over and tie up to the top of the head piece on the milking stand. Make it loose enough so it doesnt hurt her when standing but tight enough so that when she tries to lay down it will come up under her elbows and make her uncomfortable so she will stand back up. very effective

doe 3 - only feed her on the stand, handle her teats and udder area and praise her when she stands still. Do this in small spurts, dont overwhelm her. when pregnant she may not want you to touch her udder and thats not uncommon, dont stress her out by forcing her to stand still on the stand.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Hi Stacy, thanks for the baling twine idea...will try that.

Yes, doe 1 is in milk now. She kidded on may 2 nd with twin doelings.The babies are still on her right now so I have not attempted milking yet. But even last year, if she ran out of grain, she started hopping...


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Doe 1 - is she still nursing her doe kids?


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Yes..


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

she likely is fighting you because she doesnt want you to steal from her kids. Be patient but firm with her that dancing is NOT allowed.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

How should I react? If she stops dancing,start milking but then if she does start again? How do i react?


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## Rev144 (Jan 22, 2011)

If my goats act up on the stand they get no food. If I give them food and they eat it all and they start getting all ansy and jumping around, the next day, they dont get any food until I am done milking. I put the food in the bucket on the floor so they can see it. If while they are being milked and they jump around I either tell them to knock it off in a stern voice or I slap their leg. If that dont do the trick, I tie each back leg to the legs of the milk stand. 

When you feed your goats and allow them to act up when they are done eating, you are teaching them that acting up is ok because you gave them a treat for that behavior. Good behavior gets rewarded when they are done milking and did good. Bad behavior gets no goodies! 

Heidi might be trying to save her milk for her kids. Once she gets use to being milked she will be better. Hiedi needs to learn that you are boss and you will take the milk if you want it... If she were my goat, I would not let her be in control of the situation. I would tie her legs to the milk stand or slap her leg when she acted up. Defiantly would not give her treats for bad behavior.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I see what you are saying....so maybe I'll start today by putting her on the stand and NOT give her anything until she calms down? I am not planning on milking for a few more days....

But she does take advantage of me being a newbie, i'm sure....cause she has been milked every year (before I got her) so she knows what is going on! I do raise my voice and tell her to stop, but I'll have to pay more attention to how I handle this....it's weird for me because I am not a person who is subordinate typically so i usually have no problem with animals behaving..I have a dominant personality 

Darn goats...LOL....now I better understand the Bibles comparison of sheep and goats...LOL


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

we practice patients...Goats can be stubborn and if you are stressed they are stressed...begin your morning in a positive...brush her, hum to her ( I know some think its crazy but it helps) no feed in the feeder until you are ready to milk...first message her udder...then begin milking...I never just grab and go...I touch their thigh and work my way tot he udder then teat...I keep an extra bucket handy to dump milking before it gets dumped on me...I try not to let go of the teat until I am done (or switching sides) Even if she continues to protest...just get it done..she will one day reward you with a pleasant milking experience. 
for doe number two..put an upside down bucket under her belly...just out of your way of milking..do all the above for her as well
for doe number three your trainee...when I bring my maiden does on the table they get a good brushing, a good rub down and I message the udder area...getting them use to the way things runs hels them except their duty

I have had some real hard cases..where we had to tie the head up..hold one leg while some one else milks...yep..we trained her..but it took time and patients..I believe the goats do want to please us but just like a child they will test you first..Some offer a special treat when they are done milking..

Best of luck


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

My does get grain on the stand. They used to cruize right through it and be done before me. So I did 2 things, play music(mine like country) it really helped mellow the mood both theirs and mine. I have 1 doe that likes music so much if I'm done before her song is over she lets down again, she increased her milk production after her peak. 2nd I put good size rocks in their feed so they have to work around the rocks.

As for sitting, laying down. I had a doe frustrate me to tears last week. I used to, well I used to pull her tail straight up everytime she layed down, it put her right back to her feet. Well she was being REAL terrible last week, so I seperated her from her kids overnight, and did not milk her the next day(here grain is on the stand), put her kids on her in the morning without her breakfast. Well I have not had an issue with her since, Now she waits her turn, runs to the stand and spreads'em.

My FFs seem to behave the best on the stand for milking. But I do what Stacey suggested and give udder rubs before they are ever pregnant.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I think she does test me...cause according to her last owner (who I believed) she was an easy milker....I really think she takes advantage of my newness...lol....lil brat!

and believe me...I WILL get it done!! There is no "free loading here".....everyone has a job to do, wether they like it or not! Hahaha

If I have to tie her down, I will.....but I don't really wanna be aggressive at all....it's funny because they BOTH did not let me leave when they were in labor...even if my husband or daughter was with them! So I know they like me...at least a little bit  and I'm ok to get scratches from too....lol...and grain and treats...


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

HerdQueen said:


> My does get grain on the stand. They used to cruize right through it and be done before me. So I did 2 things, play music(mine like country) it really helped mellow the mood both theirs and mine. I have 1 doe that likes music so much if I'm done before her song is over she lets down again, she increased her milk production after her peak. 2nd I put good size rocks in their feed so they have to work around the rocks.
> 
> As for sitting, laying down. I had a doe frustrate me to tears last week. I used to, well I used to pull her tail straight up everytime she layed down, it put her right back to her feet. Well she was being REAL terrible last week, so I seperated her from her kids overnight, and did not milk her the next day(here grain is on the stand), put her kids on her in the morning without her breakfast. Well I have not had an issue with her since, Now she waits her turn, runs to the stand and spreads'em.
> 
> My FFs seem to behave the best on the stand for milking. But I do what Stacey suggested and give udder rubs before they are ever pregnant.


:ROFL: Are you kidding me?! She actually learned from that you think? That it so funny!! I just did something kinda similar....my Kinder is a real pushy girl and always head butts my Nubians kids out of the shelter...well it was raining and she did it and they are only 13 days old...So I put HER out(under an eavesment) without her own kids who were happily inside where it is dry....when I put her back in....she was good


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Of course she tests you! I have one doe that tests me every freaking day. After milking she checks to see if the chick feed has been put up, and if it hasn't she WILL dump the bag and run off chuckling to herself. Your doe will move on to something else to test you on once she realizes she can't get away with bad stand manners. 

She may have been an easy milker for her previous owner, and if your hand milking you have a different milking style then the past owner, and she has to get used to that too. (Another thing music helps with milking with a beat)

You have to prove you are their herd queen, not the snack wagon. I know you said you don't want to be aggressive, but sometimes they need a lil slap on the bum. Watch your goat queen take some pointers what does she expect from them, less should not be expected of her.


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

NyGoatMom said:


> :ROFL: Are you kidding me?! She actually learned from that you think? That it so funny!! I just did something kinda similar....my Kinder is a real pushy girl and always head butts my Nubians kids out of the shelter...well it was raining and she did it and they are only 13 days old...So I put HER out(under an eavesment) without her own kids who were happily inside where it is dry....when I put her back in....she was good


I couldn't believe it was that easy with her. But I guess if I were made extremly uncomfortable, then deprived of my breakfast I would learn it to. I'm just as food driven as the goats...

I never thought I of doing that with a couple of pushy girls in the barn, I will tonight see how they like getting the boot from the barn.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

>>>If my goats act up on the stand they get no food. If I give them food and they eat it all and they start getting all ansy and jumping around, the next day, they dont get any food until I am done milking. I put the food in the bucket on the floor so they can see it. If while they are being milked and they jump around I either tell them to knock it off in a stern voice or I slap their leg. If that dont do the trick, I tie each back leg to the legs of the milk stand. <<<

OMG you sound so much like me. Both with my goats _*and*_ my children.
No reward until I get the right behavior. My Shasta used to challenge me about once a month. I would take her grain and set it just out of her reach and continue to milk.

I have a 2nd freshener this year who is still a dancer. I try to make sure she has enough grain to last the whole milking. (She milks really fast.) But if she starts up I take her bucket and continue. As soon as she stands still I toss her a handful. She usually stays quiet after that and gets a little more.

My queen is fine on the stand but she is still a pushy gal. She likes to rush the gate at milking time. If she makes it through; I fetch her, and put her back in the holding pen and get someone else. (I have been a school teacher and will not tolerate cutting in line.:slapfloor I have worked with her and now, most mornings, I can unlatch the gate and she stays put (though begrudgingly) until I tell her it is okay to go.
If you don't become the boss; they will.

>>>Are you kidding me?! She actually learned from that you think?<<<
I sing to my goats. It calms them down and makes the time go faster for me. Sometimes, when I am really fed up with them, I sing a song that starts, "Last night I heard the wolves....." You would be surprised how often they staighten right up.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Herdqueen....you are too funny! I can tell you are a girl who's not putting up with any bull....LOL...


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

luvmyherd said:


> >>>If my goats act up on the stand they get no food. If I give them food and they eat it all and they start getting all ansy and jumping around, the next day, they dont get any food until I am done milking. I put the food in the bucket on the floor so they can see it. If while they are being milked and they jump around I either tell them to knock it off in a stern voice or I slap their leg. If that dont do the trick, I tie each back leg to the legs of the milk stand. <<<
> 
> OMG you sound so much like me. Both with my goats _*and*_ my children.
> No reward until I get the right behavior. My Shasta used to challenge me about once a month. I would take her grain and set it just out of her reach and continue to milk.
> ...


LOL...this is proving to be more informative and enlightening than I imagined! 

I know with animals you have to keep an upper hand...it's just hard with goats if you are new...they are so hard to handle at times!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Speaking of which....I just came in from "milking"...just a quick graining and a few bits of milk from each....not much at all. BUT...it's a start....and it went as well as I expected...it is very stressful when they dance...but my Kinder is a downright PITA...she danced,kicked, tried to lay down...so I had a bucket under her, the sling Stacy suggested under her and her legs tied , and I STILL had a hard time! This does not seem fun for either of us. I gave her her grain each time she stood still, but man, this is gonna be rough for a while I bet!
Oh, and Daisy Mae #3...she danced when I put her up there if I touched her udder area, but at least with her I can work on it before she kids.
Does anyone have an explanation on how to tie a hobble?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I just milked a FF for the first time today. She was hysterical being away from her son, but she was lopsided and needed to be milked out. Well she wouldnt calm down but I wouldnt give in. All she wanted to do was holler. Tried laying down on me, tried dancing away etc. But I think our bond won out because I gave her a good yell to knock it off and then started milking, when she stood still I praised her in my usual voice for praising and coddling her (my baby) and when she acted up she got a good pinch in the udder and told to knock it off or else!  She settled down faster then I expected (though she still was hollering). So yes you have to be boss (Im always boss) but know when to comfort and sooth. 

But some does just dont figure it out. Hopefully your Kinder does soon for your sanity's sake


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

:ROFL: You pinched her "boob"?! Hahahahaha...... :slapfloor: That's hysterical!
I won't give up, but I think I have actually made it worse since I have not had more control of behavior before now....but let me tell you, I'm gonna be more demanding of good behavior now!

I felt bad though after the "episode" with Bailey...she didn't want anything to do with me for a bit (until I offered some fresh browse that is  )


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

I don't recommend pinching udders at all, we deal with this with hired hands on the cows all the time. Pinching bruises tissues (Im sure youre not doing it as hard as the employees have) and can actually cause cysts. We've had a major problem with this whole employees moving cattle and they're not going fast enough, grabbing a handful of udder or pinching at the top of the bag. Cysts are terrible. We have since fired the worst one and now make it VERY clear the girls' bodies do not lie. Cysts, bumps, cuts, limping. Dealt with it all. Some people have no respect or compassion. 

This is not an attack on you Stacey, just a "this happened to me" story.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

its just a little pinch and nothing that would damage her udder, I wouldnt want to do that to my expensive show doe for sure!


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

StaceyRosado said:


> its just a little pinch and nothing that would damage her udder, I wouldnt want to do that to my expensive show doe for sure!


Yeah see I didn't figure you were intentionally harming your doe, as the employees do. Lol like I said, just a "this happened to me" story. It was just terrible. Took a lot of sneaking around to try to catch them doing it. Ugh. Pain in the ass.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

certainly wouldnt want anyone to hurt their does. All information from experience is good to pass on


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

>>>>she danced,kicked, tried to lay down...so I had a bucket under her, the sling Stacy suggested under her and her legs tied , and I STILL had a hard time! This does not seem fun for either of us. I gave her her grain each time she stood still, but man, this is gonna be rough for a while I bet!<<<<

I cannot tell you how we fought with Shasta when we first got her. My husband actually rigged a sling to pick her up off her feet. At one point he stated he was gonna call the woman we bought her from because, "This goat is unmilkable!!!!!":veryangry:
I gently reminded him that she did not promise that and it was not her responsibility.

Anyway, we just kept working with her, rewarding her whenever she kept still. One time she thrashed so much she brought the whole milk stand over on me; with her in it. She got so she would be really good until she was almost empty and then take aim and wham! dump the whole bucket. I would not only take her grain away but I would make her watch as I fed it to someone else. Then I would lock her in a stall for awhile. I took to milking her and dumping it out a quart at a time to keep it out of harm's way. This has to be done carefully to make sure you do not harm the goat; but if they try to pull away I hang on to the teats and tell them, "I am going to milk you so get over it!" I would never hang on if they were pulling so hard I might hurt them but gentle pressure often gets them to stop trying to get away.
Final upshot, Shasta became one of my best girls. She was the one I fetched when children came to visit and wanted to try milking. She gave two gallons a day and I was very sad that I had to sell her cuz she could not take the Valley heat.
So, hang in there and hold your ground. It will get better.:thumbup:


We tried several homemade hobbles but none of them worked. I bought the cheap one from Caprine Supply and it has done a marvelous job on most of my FF's. I usually only have to use it for a few days.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Oh my goodness...that is what I am going to go through! I just know it!! I felt awful after that episode...It's gonna be a looooonnngg ride  but I'll keep trying...Thanks for sharing your story!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

mjs500doo said:


> Yeah see I didn't figure you were intentionally harming your doe, as the employees do. Lol like I said, just a "this happened to me" story. It was just terrible. Took a lot of sneaking around to try to catch them doing it. Ugh. Pain in the ass.


That is ridiculous!  Why would people do that?! 

I laughed because I knew from reading Stacy's posts, she would not harm her doe...and it is probably not a constant occurrence so as to cause a cyst or bruising .....those people should not work with animals...


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

NyGoatMom said:


> That is ridiculous!  Why would people do that?!
> 
> I laughed because I knew from reading Stacy's posts, she would not harm her doe...and it is probably not a constant occurrence so as to cause a cyst or bruising .....those people should not work with animals...


As did I, but didn't want her to take offense just in case.


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## Rev144 (Jan 22, 2011)

After reading LuvMyHerd's post about Shasta, it made me think of my Biscuit, who was a tough booger to break to milk. For the longest time we had a regular rodeo going on. I had to tie her legs to the stantion - all four of them! But now, she is like a dream. She is so funny, she gets on the stand and crowds to the wall. Then when I sit down, she takes baby steps sideways until she reaches me. She does not fidget, and is very careful not to kick her leg if a fly is bothering her. She still wont let my Loving Man milk her though! 

There is hope for your girls....


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

NyGoatMom said:


> How should I react? If she stops dancing,start milking but then if she does start again? How do i react?


I have a couple who *think* that if they get antsy and dance on the stand that I will give in to their want and stop milking.... I don't! I keep a hand on their teat at all times and milk as I hold the cup, they sometimes get even more active and that entails a very firm and gruff NO! most times it works, if it doesn't a good crack on the rump and a firm NO while I continue milking seems to help.

Also... I always feed my does on the stand, wether they are babies , dry or pregnant, if they aren't getting grain, they get alfalfa pellets and I do have one here whose name should have been Hoover for as fast as she cleans out a feed pan... she then will back her head against the head gate til her ears are covering her eyes, drop her butt low enough to almost sit on my hands until I give her another cup of AP to occupy her for me to finish 
Your girls are newly fresh... mama's aren't very keen on sharing their babies food, keep working with them though, and no goodies unless they are on the stand


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

>>>>Oh my goodness...that is what I am going to go through!<<<<<
You will make it. And it is soooooooooo worth it.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Well, I have put off milking since the first day but I plan to do it in the next few days.....I am NOT looking forward to it


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Can I increase alfalfa pellets more quickly than grain? Or is that also 1/4 cup at a time?


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

I give mine all the pellets they want during milking.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Do you slowly increase? Or is it different than grain and they can eat as much as they want?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

i'm not sure you can up alfalfa quickly, but I was told to up mine a little at a time. now my milker gets 2 lbs of oats and alfalfa pellets a day (2 feedings), and top dressed with BOSS and split peas.

as for milking, you can do it! don't be afraid of them!! don't let them win. if you let them win, they'll know to walk all over you.

I don't have a milk stand, and my buckling gets put up in a dog crate in their sleeping quarters, so I milk my girl in their sleep quarters untied. i'd move her, but then he'll start yelling for mommy and she'll get distressed.....too much hassle. 

I have a routine so she knows exactly what to expect. if i'm milking slowly that morning or my girl is eating quickly, she'll start to squirm...but I don't let her win. i'll hang on to her teat for dear life until she stops moving, or i'll body block her in a corner and continue to milk until I decide when i'm done. she does NOT get to make the rules!

I've been milking her for about 2.5 weeks now, and she's gotten much better. still gets skittish and squirmy sometimes, but she was very skittish when we first got her 3 months ago, so she's doing great.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Well, the one who was the hardest to milk, I found out has double orifices* and* small teats... so we decided to let her babies stay on her 24/7 and only milk my nubian....Heidi is doing great now, I think she was just uncomfortable at first.

Bailey (Mrs. Two-Holed Tiny Teats ) And my favorite goat...LOL....is being kept just to produce meat babies.She's a Kinder bred to a Pygmy/Fainter. Her babies are stocky lil things!

So we'll have 2 Nubians and Bailey.....plenty for us  I have been "training" my yearling nubian by feeding her grain 2 x a day on the stand and getting her used to being "milked"....she hardly reacts anymore so I'm hoping she'll be a bit easier as a FF next spring.

All the girls are getting used to the routine so we are even having less push and shove for the door. Heidi goes first, then Bailey, then Daisy-Mae....FINALLY things are calming down but now I get bitter milk... Being a newbie is tough!


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Sounds like things are coming right along. I was gone for 2 weeks and was not sure how the girls would behave this morning. They all did just fine and gave me over 2 gallons total. They seemed happy to be back in their usual routine.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Except now I am getting bitter milk 

I try it again tomorrow...
http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f183/milk-tastes-bitter-salty-148778/


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

NyGoatMom said:


> Except now I am getting bitter milk
> 
> I try it again tomorrow...
> http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f183/milk-tastes-bitter-salty-148778/


My phone is goofy right now, but salty or bitter typically indicates a pH imbalance or high SCC (possible mastitis case). Take a drop or two of blue dawn dish soap in a dish and squirt 1-3 squirts of milk into the dish. Swirl, or mix. See what happens. If it seems slimy or clots up, mastitis typically.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

mjs500doo said:


> My phone is goofy right now, but salty or bitter typically indicates a pH imbalance or high SCC (possible mastitis case). Take a drop or two of blue dawn dish soap in a dish and squirt 1-3 squirts of milk into the dish. Swirl, or mix. See what happens. If it seems slimy or clots up, mastitis typically.


Thanks, I did do the test and it was fine...how do you fix the pH?


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

We have found that our goats like music while being milked. Mostly soft oldies or country. Women singing is best. We do feed on the stand. We have a couple of new does that are mot milking but we are trying to get some weight on, so we run them through the parlor after everyone else. Also this makes them used to being handled.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

NyGoatMom said:


> Thanks, I did do the test and it was fine...how do you fix the pH?


Try some pine needles or yogurt.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

mjs500doo said:


> Try some pine needles or yogurt.


Ok, any ol pine? I thought pine would make the milk taste off?


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

NyGoatMom said:


> Ok, any ol pine? I thought pine would make the milk taste off?


Surprisingly no, actually my girls snack on pine while they are tethered out and I swear when they've eaten pine their milk is so much sweeter and richer.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Ok, I'll try it. How much? I have to cut it all....and how long for results if it helps?
Thanks for trying to help me out. I am really bummed about this...


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

NyGoatMom said:


> Ok, I'll try it. How much? I have to cut it all....and how long for results if it helps?
> Thanks for trying to help me out. I am really bummed about this...


Like a handful or two. You should notice a smoother taste within a few days.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Ok, starting that tomorrow! Will let you know if it helps.


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