# Mineral blocks with grain and hay



## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

Hi, I am going to be putting a horse in with my goats and I am trying to figure out how to feed all of these creatures so they each have what they need but maybe they can share some feeds too. I was wondering if this sounds like a good setup. Goats can have a over a wall hanging feeder for when i feedtheir grain twice a day. Horse gets a over the door hanging feeder for his/her grain twice a day. Both goats and horse get free choice alfalfa that is put into a corner wall feeder (i figured that the horse will eat any leftovers that the goats waste or throw on the floor) And the horse and goat will share a mineral block put in some feeder in the stall. I'm just not sure what to do about the hay when the goats no longer need it because they are wethers I have read on this forum that at 3 they stop getting free choice alfalfa. So in will then need some way to keep goats from getting to the horses hay. Any suggestions and does this feeing setup sound "do-able"?


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

forgot to mention. Does the stop feeding the alfalfa hay only apply to alfalfa hay or does this apply to all kinds of hay? Also anyone know if mineral blocks have copper in them? ( i read goats need that)


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

I'm not quite so much the expert on goats (although I do know that grown wethers really should not have alfalfa, and truth be told, ours never even got it as a baby and he did just fine). Horses are actually what I know about, and I highly recommend that no horse ever be fed free choice alfalfa. Alfalfa is very rich and high in sugar. It is good for putting weight on a horse and I like to feed some during the winter when they need the extra energy to keep warm. However, it is far too rich to feed free-choice. You could easily founder your horse that way. Plain grass hay (if it's not too green) can be fed free choice since it won't lead to founder or chronic obesity. 

Keep in mind that horses were never designed to eat rich food all day. A horse grazing in the wild may come across a nice green patch every so often, but most of the time they will be eating yellowed prairie and scrub grasses. This round-the-clock eating keeps the gut working but the low calorie content of the diet won't overload their system. An older horse or one that is working extra hard does need extra calories to keep fit, but still should not be overloaded on rich food. An easy keeper should not get any alfalfa or grain at all since this can lead to obesity or, worse, founder. An average keeper on an average work schedule really does not need alfalfa or grain either (although it likely won't damage him like it would the easy keeper). The high sugar content in these foods contributes first and foremost to poor hoof quality if nothing else, so my rule of thumb is "don't feed it unless they need it."


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

That's good news to me because my dad is the kind who goes for cheap but serves the purpose food for animals. I will be getting a broke horse that has had experience with kids and preferably goats, so it might be a little older. Plus i think since our pasture is not that big i will feed grain also so that the goat can eat it too, but i will only feed a small amount. I have been reading on sites that are for goats and some people give their goats purina goat chow, but they also say it might be bad for horses,and some people give their goats sweet food along with the horse but add other minerals to keep the goat (wethers) from getting stones. I am not sure what the people on this forum view but if that set up works than that sounds good to me! I was going to give a mineral block as the mineral additve and just feed sweet feed as the grain. Plus a little grassy hay all day free choice.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

the basic of feeding horses and goats is like a pyramid:

at the bottom and having the largest amount of the overall daily ration is pasture or feed with high rawfiber content. For horses that's grass and hay, for goats it's browse (leaves, twigs, herbs, brush), then pasture and hay. 

This part should be AT LEAST 2/3 of the daily ration, if more, even better.

Grain or other lowfiber diet should not exceed 1/3 of the daily ration and that is meant for dairy goats with a high milk yield, other goats need much, much less of grain.

And the top of the pyramid then is minerals and trace elements.

So, if you're pasture isn't enough for the horse and the goats,suplementing them both with grain is the wrong way to go.

It's hay or maybe only straw for the horse (depending on the quality of the hay/pasture) and hay and browse for the goats.

Next thing: if you keep the horse with the goats on the same pasture you will very likely discover that the goats won't touch the grass that the horse has left over. They are pricky eaters by nature and with another animal that "spoils" their food, it's even more difficult to make them eat there.

F.e.: I have always used a small patch of pasture in the spring to get our goats used to fresh grass after winter. Last spring I turned them out there again but in the autumn before there had been horses on that patch for the first time since I use it (courtesy of my neighbour). And even after 6 months winter snow and rain the goats barely touched the grass, they turned away with disgust on their faces.


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

I see, So since goat kids need grain for a little while and I am getting wethers which are vulnerable to urinary stones. Would it be ok to feed goats a very small amont of grain? I know horses do not need much especially because it mkaes them fat and can cuase health issues. My pasture is not very good ( i guess) it is mostly weeds, that i plan to check over to make sure nothing poisonous. So i need to know what kind of grain could be used to feed both horses and goats. Also i will buy a mineral block if nessecary. Or if you have any suggestion for a feed that is good for wehthers but can be fed to horses. Anything not too costly is great.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

I think that a grown wether with moderate work can live great without ANY grain, IF there's enough roughage - again, if there's not enough rough feed, the grain won't help but only contribute to health issues. Not urinary calculi but rumen problems and they can kill a goat, too, and sometimes much faster. I don't give grain to wethers over 1,5 year of age, mostly I stop around the time they turn 1 year and when it's time for summer pasture again (out of the winter paddocks).

A poor pasture with weeds - provided they aren't poisonous - is a good basic pasture for a goat. Remember, goats natural habitats are half-deserts and they can still prosper on feed a horse or cow would already starve on.

Another saying: "it's easier to kill a goat with kindness than to starve it!"

Is there any chance that you can attend some basic goat keeping and raising classes to get some more hands-on experience before you get your own animals?


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

Unfortunately there is not a class that teaches this that I know of. I am very appreciative of your help and I do understand what you are saying about grain. I guess I'm also wondering how to prevent urinary stones in wethers without feeding som kind of supplement. What i have heard is that wethers need little grain that has some kind of mineral that helps prevent this disease. So I was wondering if there is such a mineral in horse feed or a mineral block. Or is there another way to prevent this without the use of grain or supplements.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

you're speaking about the calcium/phosphorus-ratio that is one of the more common causes of urinary calculy. Many calculi form from excess calcium. But there are also calculy that form from excess phosphorus or magnesium or oxalate. So it's not ONE mineral that plays a major role but many and other factors as well - you need to study up on that, too.

Grain is high in phosphorus but you don't need to feed grain to balance the calcium when your basic diet in the right one. Alfalfa is high in calcium, so if you feed alfalfa you need to balance the calcium with a phosphorus source (that CAN be grain but there are other feeds as well that can do that). If your basic diet is more or less pasture and hay with an adequate mineral mix you don't need to balance the phosphorus and most likely also not the calcium because the diet itself is more or less balanced already.

Regarding classes: are you a member on the packgoat mailing list on yahoo, too? There you can find informations on upcoming classes for newcomers, etc. held by the local packgoat clubs.

Carolyn Eddy's book "Diet for wethers" is also a good source of information.


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

Ok. If you don't might mind me asking- What is your feeding system, and what kind of food (hay, pasture, minerals etc.) do you feed? I like to see how others are feeding to get a measure of what works the best. Of course I am only raising goats for 4-H that will not be packing nearly as much as I'm sure you do. Also I have been thinking if you don't pack or work with goat for a long period of time after he has been trained and worked with, will he forget or become stubborn when you try to pack him again?


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

our goats get free range pasture - we do weed control - during the summer with a cattle mineral block or a sheep mineral block. I change between these two since last year because with only cattle mineral (AND high copper) our goats showed signs of zinc deficiency in the winters. With changing between the blocks they were fine last winter.

Grain only for the lactating mums and the kids under 6 months. The kids stay either on their mothers or get the bottle until age 5-6 months.

Winterfeed is grass hay free choice with fir branches 2-3 times a week and again a mineral block.

Grain only to pregnant does and to youngsters under 1 year.

Sunflowerseeds during periods of strong cold.


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

That sounds like a pretty good feed schedule. It also saves money i'm guessing, because grain so high priced here in ohio. Especially the name brands for show animals.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

and much more healthy for the goats.

I started feeding grain to the youngsters a few years ago when due to changes in our breeding the kids got more towards dairy conformation again because of our selection in bucks and additional does for breeding. The kids from the mothers with a higher percentage of meat conformation (from our old breeding stock) still need less to no grain and grow the same like the others with grain.

Looking at your circumstances: 4-H, minimal packing, small space for roaming I would go towards a feeding that is as low energy as adviseable (like people without activity goats grow fat very fast on rich diets). Or you exercise them enough.....


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

Just a note about grain... I'm not sure what young goats should get (ours never got any even when he was a baby and he seemed to do just fine), but I have found that plain, unsweetened grain is better for a horse (in my experience) than sweet feed. I used to give sweet feed because that's what everyone fed their horses, but I found I was having trouble with brittle, unhealthy hooves all the time even though I fed very little grain. I switched to plain oats for my older mare who needs a few extra calories (the younger horses get just enough to feel loved). My horses' hoof quality has improved dramatically since then. The guy who trims my horses' hooves was the one who recommended the low-sugar diet and he was absolutely right. I've found that Easter does just fine on plain oats and if she needs just a bit extra in the dead of winter I might mix in plain cracked corn or just pour a little corn oil over her grain. I've also had fewer problems with rodents because there isn't that strong sugar smell to attract them. I even had a bear break in once and carry off the grain bin! I don't want to attract bears into my barn if I can avoid it!


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

Oh, wow, just oats and cracked corn does seem like enough. What can i do to prevent urinary stones in wethers? Also should i have a mineral block for the horse and goats? I really think they should have some minerals besides oats and corn.


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

I always put out a mineral block and everyone is always at it, equine and caprine alike.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

here you can find basic information about how to prevent UC - but that's just the basic, there's more to it

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/urincalc.html

oats and corn are not minerals, they are GRAIN, that contains some minerals. Hay and pasture contains minerals, too, water, as well. You have to take ALL feed into consideration and then select the mineral block that fits your feeding regimen and area you live in.


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

I know i Just talked to my friend that has goats, and she said that she feeds her goats sheep/goat pellet feed. Plus hay, and she only gives the goats a little bit. I'm not sure if horses can eat that type of food though. It's really going to be a pain to find a feed that suits most of the horse needs and goats needs. Of course hay and pasture will be the majority of their diet. Sice I don't have the pasture built yet, just a small outside pen for the goats. they will be tied outside when the weather is nice to eat the weeds in my backyard.


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

It should not be hard to feed a diet that is compatible for both goats and horses... I feed the same hay to my horses as to my goat and everyone is fine and dandy. I just keep Cuzco out of the grain. They also share the same mineral block (it's the only kind available in my area, so that's the one they get). 

I think probably the most (very most) important thing with preventing urinary stones is an abundance of fresh, clean water that is a suitable drinking temperature. I got a heated water bucket for Cuzco for winter because I felt he wasn't drinking nearly enough when the water was icy cold. Now that his water is heated, he drinks a LOT more in winter than he ever used to. I make sure and change it every day and give the bucket a good scrub every now and then because goats can be rather picky about dirty water. It costs a bit extra to heat the bucket during really cold snaps (not to mention it makes my job of cleaning the shed a lot harder), but I feel it's worth it to keep Cuzco watered properly. I keep the bucket in a sheltered corner of the shed with shavings piled around it to help keep the heating cost down.

Finally, if all this stuff about feeding ratios is sounding a bit overwhelming, my advice is to seek out someone in your area who has kept goats for a long time and get their input. Every area is different in regards to the kind of hay and grain available and the different minerals required. For example, we live in a selenium-saturated area, and when the weather turns dry in the summer the weeds and grass soak up the selenium and can poison horses and goats if they get too much of it. Adding trace minerals, supplements, feed-through wormers, or any other food that has selenium in it only exacerbates the problem, so we may change feeding schedules season to season depending on the weather. Cuzco's hair fell out for two summers before I figured out what was going on--he had selenium poisoning. Several of my friends' horses had the same thing, and one of them got it so bad she sloughed her hooves and had to be put down. So now we're very careful about pasturing animals for extended periods during a dry spell in the summer. This is why it's important to talk to someone who has lived in your area for a long time and can tell you what might be needed or avoided.


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

Yeah, I understand. I do not think there is a problem with any soil or weeds or anything in Ohio where i live. Mostly just muddy in the spring and very snowy and cold i nthe winter. Actually just now our 2 and a half feet of snow is starting to melt. It's pretty nice outside in the 40's. But anyhow, I think I will just feed the goats grass/alfalfa mix hay (if i can find it) and goat grain, we have a big water trough that will have a heater in the winter. The only pain will be filling the big sucker in the winter because there is no water in the barn and a hose won't work in winter because the water will freeze in the hose. So i'll have to stick to hauling 5 gal buckets. What a chore right? Also when the horse comes since I'm assuming it can't eat goat food, I'll just make adjustments accordingly and by then I'll probably will have gotten enough info to decide on what feed to use, if i even feed any grain at all. By then the goat will be at least a year, so it might not even need grain. And we will have a big pasture so the horse might be fine on just grass. Maybe some cracked corn in the winter. Oh, and i think i 'll get a salt block when the horse comes so that it and the goats will have some minerals. Thanks for all your help, also Sanhestar- Thanks too. And nanno- Cuzcu is such a pretty goat, looking at his photo he looks like he's kinda smallish and brown, with black and white. Very pretty. What breed is he?


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

Cuzco is actually a pretty big goat. He's about 200 lbs. (I think). That picture was taken when he was only about 6 months old. He's an alpine/nubian cross. 

You can use a hose in winter as long as you roll it up carefully after each use. If you roll it properly the water will drain out of it. It's a bit of a pain when it's cold out, and your gloves will get pretty muddy, but it sure beats hauling buckets! Positioning your water trough as close to the spigot as possible and using a hose that is just long enough to reach makes the job easier. You don't want to have to drain and roll a 50-foot hose that only needs to reach 30 feet!.


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

AWW, i love the coloring of cuzco  I am getting just plain alpine breed goats. I like the nubians but someone told me they cry alot if you get them attatched to you. I would use a hose, but our barn is nowwhere near a spicket. The spicket is by our house which is about 30-40 feet away from our goa/horse pen. But anyhow I guess hauling buckets mighr do me some good, because I have no muscle in my arms  and It would really help with that.


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## Nanno (Aug 30, 2009)

I found out later that Nubians tend to be noisy and have harsh voices. Luckily for us, Cuzco inherited the Alpine vocalization tendencies. He rarely baa-ahs, and when he does it's not very loud. He's got one of the softest, mellowest voices of any goat I've ever heard. 

Your set-up sounds a lot like the one I had when Phil and I lived in western NY during college. That spigot was also near the house and so generally it was easiest to fill the tank with a couple of water buckets every day. I usually only had to make one trip as long as I didn't skip a day and we had 2 horses at the time. I would, however, break out the hose any time I had to clean and refill the tank. There was no way I was going to haul buckets to fill the entire watering trough!

You'll save lots of money on water heating bills if you use a plastic tank and position it in a place that gets a lot of sunshine, especially if it's also sheltered from the wind. Even better is if you can find a cozy spot for it in your barn where you can pile straw or shavings around it for insulation. Tank heaters can run up a huge electric bill, so you want to minimize that as much as you possibly can.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

4-Hgoats said:


> , because I have no muscle in my arms  and It would really help with that.


there's no better (and cheaper) gym than taking care of the own animals.


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

Right you are!!! I look at all the kids at school (boys mostly) that have big muscle and are very strong, and all of them live and/or work on farms. So lifting hay and buckets and feed bags really pays off for getting in shape muscle wise. I just have trouble starting to build the muscle because I can't lift any equipment on the farm!  Ex:I have to carry 5 gal buckets that are half full, so I carry two at the same time. And if I need a feed bag lifted i have ny brother or dad do it.


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## 4-Hgoats (Feb 6, 2010)

I called my feed store manager and he reccomended elite show goat feed. What do you think of it? i looked up their website and it says u need a mineral supplement with it but in the ingredients it has trace minerals, so i think they just want you to buy more. I will probably feed this to my goats, it has copper and that stuff that helps with stones. (i gorget the element name)


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