# Pneumonia... A vaccination to consider



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

When you are new to the wild, weird, wacky world of goats, it can feel overwhelming when you are faced with the amount of stuff you don't know. Truly overwhelming...

Do this! Do that! Get this! Don't get that! The whats, whens, whys, and the hows. They just won't stop!!!!

Well, I'm gonna add to it....

We've had some awful times here lately on TGS with a killer known as Pneumonia. Horrible, long, drawn out deaths, quick, bewildering, completely out-of-the-blue deaths, cases of pneumonia that that allowed other long drawn out killer conditions to arise, permanently scarred lungs, and last but not least, GREAT expense of money, time, and attention trying to save our livestock. It is contagious. It is expensive. It kills both pets and profits with equal opportunity-like indifference.

This disease can be vaccinated against, at relatively little expense and trouble. There are both subcutaneous and internasal vaccines for it, they are safe for preggos and little kids. The vaccine prevents almost all cases and if a case should catch hold, it is far less severe. Really. 

If you think about vaccinating and decide it isn't for you, That's fine, you are completely within your rights. But please, you should at least think about it before rejecting it.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled cacophony of learning. Thank you for your time and attention.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Thank you, Mariarose, for your concern for all of our animals. I have not done this, yet. Like you said, long list. I got my first ever pneumonia vaccination this year, so why not my goats!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Mariarose you are probably the most helpful kind hearted person I know (hugs) I have noticed as well so many people having a issue with pneumonia this year. Not just here but every where. I’m not really sure what is going on, not that anyone is doing anything wrong! Just it seems to be so very common any more and can end in such heart ache. 
I am one that has always believed, why vaccinate against something that your not even having a issue with. Except for CDT. From the start that was preached everywhere to vaccinate for so I did. Then I looked into it and over eating and tetanus can kill very fast, and both are in the ground and can just kill out of the blue. So I kept with it. But so can pneumonia. I am also not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t do. But pneumonia can kill fast, sometimes before you even have a chance to see any signs. And pneumonia can come out of the blue. 
There was a article I saw a few years back, what it was was it was about necropsies done that year. The number one thing that killed goats and sheep was over eating, both C and D. After that it listed different types pneumonia. I really wish I had saved the link. Anyways when asked by my buyers what they should vaccinate in the start I always said CDT, there’s no point in vaccinating against other things if you don’t have a issue with it, now it is CDT and a pneumonia vaccine. 
And I would like to thank you Mariarose for starting this. I think if I had seen this years ago I would have started vaccinating before I had silent pneumonia come threw. And I agree you are always looking out for others critters


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## Crazy Little Goat (Dec 30, 2017)

mariarose said:


> This disease can be vaccinated against, at relatively little expense and trouble. There are both subcutaneous and internasal vaccines for it, they are safe for preggos and little kids. The vaccine prevents almost all cases and if a case should catch hold, it is far less severe. Really.


What vaccine do you use? The only one I found (upon further inspection, I'm not even sure this was a pneumonia vaccine) was at Jeffers Pet online and it had mixed reviews. Some folks said their goats died as a result of a reaction to brand vaccine. The other vaccines I found were labeled for cattle only. Is this like Corid and has to have a Rx from the vet for use in goats?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/pneumonia-vaccine.201031/
That thread has a very good discussion @mariarose, @Jessica84, @goofygoats and @Kaylam had about vaccinating.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Crazy Little Goat I just got home and I'm crazy exhausted. I thank you for considering the vaccines. I do invite you to read @Kaylam's thread that @Dwarf Dad mentioned. I'm super happy to talk to you about this, just not right now. I'm not able to make sense and I still have chores to do.

I will tell you this. The vaccines I've seen that are suitable for goats are labeled for cattle. I've never had to have an Rx for either vaccines or for CoRid (I've only used the CoRid Powder) I live in KY. Perhaps the laws are different in OH. I don't think you should have to have an Rx but don't really know. Give us a link to what you found and we'll be so happy to look at it. But please do read Kaylam's thread first.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm going to add one more--rabies. I just got my whole herd vaccinated after we found a raccoon acting strangely one night. It was curled in a tree and wouldn't move even when I poked it with a long painter's stick. It should have shied away or snarled at me or something. Next morning it was gone, but my dog soon brought back the carcass. It had died in my horse pasture. I did not get it tested (seems no one wanted to come get it and I had no time to run it all the way to town that day), but I decided to play it safe and assume it was rabid. It turns out it was probably a good thing no one wanted to test it. Had it tested positive I would have been in deep doo-doo. A lady who lives near me found a dead bat on her property that tested positive, and she ended up in a mandatory 6-month quarantine with no animals on or off her property. 

With several goats still for sale and breeding season upon us where I needed to borrow a buck back, a quarantine would have killed us. There was no evidence that the raccoon had bitten anyone, but all the goats were sniffing at the carcass before I could grab a pair of gloves and dispose of it. It freaked me out so I got every animal on the place vaccinated that week. Dogs got boosters and we did both horses and all the goats (goats got the cattle vaccine because there isn't one labeled for goats). 

It didn't help my confidence that the day we found the dying raccoon in the tree, my next-door neighbor had a goat die from what I believe was polio. I saw the poor goat in her last extremities and I told them to put her down. Her head was twisted back over her spine, she had ruptured an eyeball from slamming her head into a fence the day before, and she was foaming at the mouth with her tongue hanging out because she couldn't swallow. She was comatose when I saw her. I didn't think anything beyond polio until we found the dead raccoon next morning. I looked up rabies and realized that it is a nervous system disorder that commonly resembles polio in goats, especially when they don't develop the furious type. 

The whole episode had me very nervous for a few weeks until we were past the point where someone would have developed symptoms. We're in the clear now, but I realized that bats can bite without leaving a wound. Other small animal bites can go unnoticed under hair, especially if it doesn't develop an infection. I used to vaccinate my horses and my one goat when we lived in western NY state because rabies was so prevalent there, and we even found a rabid raccoon dying in one of our horse stalls (that raccoon was tested). Rabies is not as common here in Colorado, but I realized that if a rabid animal ever bit one of my packgoats, by law he would have to be euthanized right away if I could not prove he was vaccinated. Then my whole property would have to go on lockdown and everyone who handled my goat would have to get rabies shots. Such a thing would devastate me. The shots were only $5 each plus the vet call. It was totally worth it for peace of mind alone. And when I think of all the people my big packgoats are exposed to, if one of them ever got bitten by something and he wasn't vaccinated, it could cause a major public health crisis and I would feel like it was all my fault.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

@Damfino
You really have me thinking that rabies vaccines are not a bad idea. Here you can't even get your dog groomed without it. Apparently the area I live has, in the past had rabies issues. I'm going to check with my vet. 
Thanks for your insight!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

This is the rabies vaccine I use
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/nobivac-3-rabies?via=533884c19fa2600f00000615
I give it every other year. When my dogs tangle with something I give them a booster, and then I use the rest on my goats until it is gone. Then I order another vial for the next time.

There are a lot of restrictions on where rabies vaccines can be shipped. KY is still pretty free that way.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

mariarose said:


> This is the rabies vaccine I use
> https://www.jefferspet.com/products/nobivac-3-rabies?via=533884c19fa2600f00000615
> I give it every other year. When my dogs tangle with something I give them a booster, and then I use the rest on my goats until it is gone. Then I order another vial for the next time.
> 
> There are a lot of restrictions on where rabies vaccines can be shipped. KY is still pretty free that way.


Rats! Texas is in the list of restrictions. Thanks though!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

GoofyGoat said:


> Rats! Texas is in the list of restrictions. Thanks though!


Find out from your vet about bulk pricing, if you have a lot to do. My vet will only charge a single office call, no matter how many animals I bring in, so that helps me out a lot. Of course, that is no matter how many I bring in at one time. I can't make multiple trips for that single office call.
A farm call is expensive for me, because of mileage. So that is an option if I have multiple issues to deal with, with multiple species.

Just some ideas...


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

A word of caution about administering your own rabies vaccines--states don't usually (or possibly ever?) recognize rabies vaccines unless they are administered by a vet and given the accompanying paperwork. I could vaccinate my herd very inexpensively myself, but if one of my animals were confirmed bitten I would have no proof of vaccination and the state could put that animal down and quarantine my place anyway. When I pay a vet to give the vaccination, I'm really paying for the certificate that proves my animals are vaccinated. For most of my goats this is probably not a huge deal, but for the ones that I take out with me in public on a regular basis, having a certificate could save our butts.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

This is very true. KY does, so long as I have proof of the purchase of the vaccine (within the required time frame) AND tags. The thinking being that no kentuckian is going to actually buy the vaccine and waste it by not using it.

Yeah, Right.

I know that my vets would work with me on the cost of administering it if they had to, but we've been culturing a good relationship with our vets for years now. A brand new vet probably would not.

@Damfino is correct about how tricky that recognition is and how important that recognition is. Talk to your vet.


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## elvis&oliver (Jun 28, 2018)

This is a very important thread to follow. Thank you everyone for taking the time to post it. Excellent advice!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

I know this is old but what is the pneumonia vaccine? I didn’t read through every post completely, but is there a vaccine for goats?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

There are a few options talked about in this, Cattle options mostly, but used also for sheep and goats.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

We have used a few on our sheep, but more as a result of pneumonia developing, not as a prevention technique. Reseflor, Draxxin, and Zactran, as these were ones we were told to treat with. I will read the thread through and see if I can locate the information. thank you


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes those are for treatment, the vaccine is to help prevent the animals from getting it in the first place, or a more mild case.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Jessica84 said:


> Yes those are for treatment, the vaccine is to help prevent the animals from getting it in the first place, or a more mild case.


I will have to check at the Fleet farm or TSC, assuming no vet script is needed


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

It's a vaccine, not an antibiotic. 
Some are live vaccines, some aren't. Some are pricey, some aren't. Some need a booster, some don't. Some are injection, some aren't.

There's lots of good info here in this thread and in Kaylam's thread that's referenced here. And lots of sources to buy the vaccines, too.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

@mariarose and @Jessica84 does the intra(er?)nasal vaccine have to be refrigerated during shipping, or at my house? I know not to mix it until I'm ready to use it...


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

YES. The site you order it from should offer an ice pack, with the chance to purchase another one for a dollar if you choose.

I order from Jeffers and also order the soft pack cooler. That way I feel comfortable taking the slower shipping. I'm money ahead, and I like the coolers. PBS Animal Health shipped theirs with an ice pack and inside one of those bubble wrap envelopes.

Those are the only 2 places I've bought that from.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I’m a valleyvet person lol they use a styrofoam box (cardboard on the outside) and pack it with ice packs. They don’t charge anything for it but I always get the minimum purchase to get the free shipping so I’m not sure if one would be charged for it if only buying 1 thing. But I just once a year buy all my stuff and get the minimum. But I vaccinate for CDT, pneumonia and ORF and I will grab CD antitoxin and if they are having sales and I still don’t have enough I’ll tell my mom I need more stuff and she will have me order some of her vaccines and pay me back. It’s a pain to do but with the free shipping it comes out cheaper and I like to save anyway I can lol


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

And there ya go.

I can't think of a single vaccine that does not need refrigeration.

That's one of the big problems in poor hot areas of the globe. Even when people such as Doctors Without Borders get the vaccinations, it can be a real challenge to keep them effective and safe to use sometimes.

But my medical knowledge is quite ancient now... We're still using leeches I hear...


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Our vet will order vaccines as well, and sometimes they charge about the same amount as ordering online-which is awesome of course! If they are ordering other stuff then the shipping cost isn’t a factor at all. Unfortunately the vet is a drive away, but they hold until we can pick up-very nice!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All very good advice.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Update.
This past year is the first time I gave this vaccine
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/inforce-3
on the advice of someone here at TGS. Because I sold everyone, I have nothing to report on the effectiveness. But before they left, everyone was fully vaccinated so far as I could get it done.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

mariarose said:


> Update.
> This past year is the first time I gave this vaccine
> https://www.jefferspet.com/products/inforce-3
> on the advice of someone here at TGS. Because I sold everyone, I have nothing to report on the effectiveness. But before they left, everyone was fully vaccinated so far as I could get it done.


@mariarose
What's the difference between this and the once pmh in? Why did you choose it?
I see this covers 3 different things and I like you can get 25 single doses for less than 20 of the other (more cost effective) currently I have 15 that need their pneumonia vaccine and with 5 of them Kidding in Feb and March this might work out really well since I'll have 10 doses left.
Thanks as always for your insight!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The "Inforce" is an additional vaccine, not a substitute vaccine..
I used a CD&T vaccine, a pmh once IN vaccine, AND an INFORCE IN parainfluenza vaccine, on everyone who left me this past Summer/Fall. The exception was the very last 4, who got the last 10 dose packets of the PMH IN and the Inforce IN, because it held 10 doses and I thought they could use the extra on the goats they already had. Once they bought the goats, they could use the vaccine or not, as they chose. But everyone I sent to auction was fully vaccinated (as was my dog).


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

mariarose said:


> The "Inforce" is an additional vaccine, not a substitute vaccine..
> I used a CD&T vaccine, a pmh once IN vaccine, AND an INFORCE IN parainfluenza vaccine, on everyone who left me this past Summer/Fall. The exception was the very last 4, who got the last 10 dose packets of the PMH IN and the Inforce IN, because it held 10 doses and I thought they could use the extra on the goats they already had. Once they bought the goats, they could use the vaccine or not, as they chose. But everyone I sent to auction was fully vaccinated (as was my dog).


Gotcha thank you!
Back to my original plan then


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I remain completely, totally, behind the Once PMH IN pneumonia vaccine. Or any pneumonia vaccine but especially that one. If any feel their goats are threatened by this horrible killer, please consider this option


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

mariarose said:


> I remain completely, totally, behind the Once PMH IN pneumonia vaccine. Or any pneumonia vaccine but especially that one. If any feel their goats are threatened by this horrible killer, please consider this option


That was the plan ...I had it already in the shopping cart but then your post popped up and I wanted to see what you thought because it was different and something I had never heard of before. I just ordered the once pmh in and more cd antitoxin and replemin to get ready for Kidding.lol


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

mariarose said:


> Update.
> This past year is the first time I gave this vaccine
> https://www.jefferspet.com/products/inforce-3
> on the advice of someone here at TGS. Because I sold everyone, I have nothing to report on the effectiveness. But before they left, everyone was fully vaccinated so far as I could get it done.


Did you have cases of pneumonia before using the vaccine?

Did you have cases of pneumonia after using the vaccine?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

No and no.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

GoofyGoat said:


> No and no.


Was asking mariarose but I appreciate your answer too.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Sorry, got email notifications and didn't read post just responded.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

GoofyGoat said:


> Sorry, got email notifications and didn't read post just responded.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

mariarose said:


> Update.
> This past year is the first time I gave this vaccine
> https://www.jefferspet.com/products/inforce-3
> on the advice of someone here at TGS. Because I sold everyone, I have nothing to report on the effectiveness. But before they left, everyone was fully vaccinated so far as I could get it done.


WHAT? You sold your herd? Oh my gosh, I am in shock


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## Chris488 (Sep 4, 2018)

One of our wethers had pneumonia last Spring. It was several days and a few hundred dollars of vet care before he was himself. We had him in the house for that time, IV fluids, forcing oral fluids, etc., and at the worst of it, we went to bed convinced we'd have to bury him the next morning. Nope, he finally bounced right back the next day.

Gonna have to look into vaccinating them for this, it'd be a lot cheaper, and if it keeps them healthy, it's worth it.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

After reading these posts I think I’m going to go ahead and vaccinate my herd. 

When I’d asked my vet at our annual herd check in November, he wasn’t super sold on the need to vaccinate, said if we wanted to spend the money then ok but he didn’t really see the need. But for people I’m a big proponent of vaccinating for everything (work in healthcare) so might as well for the animals too. 

Are each of these vaccines annual ones (Once PMH IN, Inforce 3, and Nobivac 3 rabies)? Can the rabies vaccine be given subcutaneous in goats?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The medications to save a sick goat are extremely expensive. The loss of a goat is extremely expensive. I'm mildly surprised at your vet, because I'm certain he/she'd feel differently about vaccinating a different species, such as cattle, or dogs.
The Inforce IN and the Once PMH IN are annual, but in dangerous situations or special stresses, you can redo the vaccinations without harm. That is up to you. Last winter was so horrible and stressful that there were 10 I chose to get another round of the Once PMH IN. Those 10 were the ones I thought most vulnerable. The rabies can be given SQ. So far as I know, the rabies is annual for complete protection. @Damfino is who I'd listen to on that one.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

Thanks Maria, I’ll probably order them tonight! I was surprised at his response too, but he’s kind of odd and the only vet around that will see goats.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Then he's the one you'll have to cultivate a relationship with.

There is a text book I can recommend. by a Dr Pugh. I'll find a link and edit this post to include it.
Here it is
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product...mini_detail?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3JVH1BYRUQ3K4


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Then he's the one you'll have to cultivate a relationship with.
> 
> There is a text book I can recommend. by a Dr Pugh. I'll find a link and edit this post to include it.
> Here it is
> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product...mini_detail?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3JVH1BYRUQ3K4


Just ordered the vaccines and going to try to pick up a used copy of that text. Thanks again!


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

mariarose said:


> The medications to save a sick goat are extremely expensive. The loss of a goat is extremely expensive. I'm mildly surprised at your vet, because I'm certain he/she'd feel differently about vaccinating a different species, such as cattle, or dogs.
> The Inforce IN and the Once PMH IN are annual, but in dangerous situations or special stresses, you can redo the vaccinations without harm. That is up to you. Last winter was so horrible and stressful that there were 10 I chose to get another round of the Once PMH IN. Those 10 were the ones I thought most vulnerable. The rabies can be given SQ. So far as I know, the rabies is annual for complete protection. @Damfino is who I'd listen to on that one.


Wow.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Just a little smile


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Cute!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

odieclark said:


> Just a little smile


Literal tears are running down my face. I srsly can't stop crying over this gift of a video...


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

What a good baby! Thanks for the laugh.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Literal tears are running down my face. I srsly can't stop crying over this gift of a video...


That is my Cocopuff, before he got horns!
So funny!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

I just made an appointment for the vet to come out and vaccinate my crew against pneumonia.
Thanks for bringing this up, @mariarose !


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You are welcome. As I said, if you think about it and decide it isn't for you, then no problem. Thinking about it is what I ask.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

mariarose said:


> You are welcome. As I said, if you think about it and decide it isn't for you, then no problem. Thinking about it is what I ask.


And it worked. I have been thinking about it, talking with local goat people, learned how they lost one, or two, or almost lost one...
Hearing another one of mine cough...
With our cold climate, my goats have to be inside more than outside... I often have the door open, thinking cold is better than dusty inside air...
So, now we'll have it done, and I might sleep better.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I vaccinate for pneumonia, but there are forms that it does not protect against. Unfortunately, one of those invaded my farm.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Pneumonia can kill quickly and quietly. If you can do pneumonia prevention, it should help in the long run. (But, there are always exceptions, no shot is 100% effective.)


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

True


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