# Dun colored Goats?



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

I just purchased an Alpine/Saanen doe that has a color I am not finding listed much in any goat literature. "Ash" is named for her Ash gray coloration and she has pale gray/blue eyes.

I breed horses (black Arabian and Blue Roan Sport horses, Dobermans and decorative poultry) I was hoping to breed "blue roan" (the Pygmy people call it "gray agouti") into my goats since it matches some of my horses, and I like a continuity of appearances. 

Anyway little Ash doesn't appear to be roan, but rather a dilute (like a Weimeraner) has anyone seen this color before? Or anything similar, in horses it would almost look like what we would call a silver/blue dun.


----------



## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

As a cross can have any number of colors and patterns there really isnt a classification for them other then say, dappled, roan and so on. There are goat color and patter classifications but as your picture is nearly entirely green, I am afraid I cant see its normal color.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Wow, that is so cool, the Saanen ears with the Alpine set to them. She's going to be a very very dark two toned chamoisee.


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

Thanks guys!
Grey-Chamoisee... The color genetics of goats is fascinating. There are so many similar looking colors to horses, but the goat expressions are so different! Fantastic that you guys are both packers, that is actually one of the main jobs this little girl will be doing later on when she grows up. 



TDG farms- thanks for the reply, the one photo didn't quite look the same when it uploaded as it does on my phone's screen. I added a couple others (still new to this forum's system!)


----------



## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

What a cool looking girl! She's beautiful


----------



## peggy (Aug 11, 2010)

Awww, love her.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I don't think it's chamoise, I think that's just the shading in the photo. Looks like chocolate to me.


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Yes, i've seen this color before in my nigerians...quite a few of them actually. Looks like a pretty normal chocolate to me. The eyes will fade as it ages also to a more normal gold/brown color.


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the responses!
She does have a slight mousey brown to her in some light, but she is MOSTLY GREY...
Like a Weimeranner, she is definitely more "gray ghost" than Hershies bar... Is that still chocolate or a different dilution factor?


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

There is very little research done on goat color genetics unfortunately...especially when compared to horses. I've read nothing about "dilute" colors in goats that would be comparable to horse coat genetics. She would be referred to as "chocolate," which can come in different shades. I don't really see anything unusual about her color. It can range in shades from a dark almost black chocolate color to a gray chocolate color or to a goldish chocolate color and anywhere in between.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Chocolate is a type of dilution - actually there are two; the light chocolate of Toggenburgs and a darker brown, both of which are dilutions of black pigment. The lighter shades of gold/cream/white (for most solid white goats) are also dilutions of red, through a different gene. 

It's hard to say for sure since the color in your pictures isn't accurate. I did find some photos of goats with the gray tone that you describe but they were all clipped for show which usually makes the coat lighter. It's possible that there's another rare dilution acting alone or in tandem with chocolate, but I'd guess that it's more likely just an uncommon expression.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Ah-ha - just found this on another thread: "From what I've been able to glean, taupe/silver brown seems to be the same genetics as light chocolate."


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

I am sure the genetics of goats and horses (and dogs) are significantly different.
But there are also certain parallels that are difficult to dismiss, as different as they are, mammals all come from the same genetic stock at some point and tend to follow certain general rules. (Certain mutation clusters behave similarly). 
I breed black Arabians and blue roan sport horses, and I had noticed in my research that classic roan (base color with dark points: head, lower legs, tail etc.) called agouti by the pygmy goat community, seems to work much the same in goats as it does in horses. I.E. that it is a simple dominant "modifying" color. I was hoping to breed that gene into my goats, when ASH randomly presented herself. She is very grey but doesn't appear roan, so I was curious about it.

I also used to breed Dobermans and Minpins, and with them, there are several "dillute" colors; most obvious in the blacks. The black dilutes to Chocolate: when the black areas don't produce the grey melanin and present as a chocolate brown instead of black, including the liver-colored skin and noses. The "Blue" is the opposite, that is when the black areas cannot produce the brown pigments and present instead as a steel grey, down to the skin which is also a similar shade of grey. Both genes are recessive, so they don't present unless the dog is homozygous for it (inheriting a gene for it from each parent) and then there are the dogs who express BOTH the chocolate and blue dillute factors (called dillute because the "fade" the black base color) who come out kind of a ghostly combination of silver and slightly yellow tint (the same shade as a Weimeranner dog, as that is technically the genetic recipe of that breeds coloration) within Dobermans and Minpins there are other occasional color mutations (dillute red in Minpins, for example and the "white Dobermans")

With horses that same dillute factor is called "dun", it is basically an "accessory" color that fades out the base color of the horse in a specific pattern down to the skin. I realize genetics (of color) in goat aren't so well studied... But I feel like if that is ever going to become a good clear understanding of the inheritance of certain traits it begins with people asking questions and many people sharing their observations so that patterns may begin to emerge through the shared experiences of many people pooling their observations and ideas.

I wasn't saying her color was unusual, although honestly I haven't seen many with her color or found many displayed online. Which of course provoked my curiosity. Mostly I am curious what direction I should breed her in (black buck, roan buck, Markhor, etc) to move me in the direction I want to go with my goats. I like to at least kind of have a rough idea what to expect base on phenotype. I love her just the same no matter what, I just like to have an idea what she will produce, so knowing general rules is a great place to start.

I am curious about the "chocolate" coloration having so many different variations. My commentary was just that when I hear the word chocolate I think medium browns and it is somewhat counter intuitive to me to call a gray animal that. Just not what my brain associates with the word. (If I were to introduce her to someone and say she is a "chocolate", I guarantee most people will give me a funny look and say "but she's grey?" ...not just because that is my instinct, but because it is just not quite the association to the word most people will have.)

Sorry I am just thinking out loud (how I organize my thoughts) I find it fascinating... Is there anything you can tell me you hav observed or is known about the chocolate color? Is it known to be dominant or recessive? (Which is easily observable over a few generations) or is it completely random? Or has anyone paid attention to such things?

Ash is from a Dairy, sired by a white alpine and out of a white Saanen, so what her genetic recipe is will be completely random anyway (selection was based on milk production and udder qualities) so its likely going to be mostly random genetic alphabet soup out of her anyway. But if there is anything to glean on general rules, it's nice to have some idea what to expect your offspring to look like.


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Chocolate is a type of dilution - actually there are two; the light chocolate of Toggenburgs and a darker brown, both of which are dilutions of black pigment. The lighter shades of gold/cream/white (for most solid white goats) are also dilutions of red, through a different gene.
> 
> It's hard to say for sure since the color in your pictures isn't accurate. I did find some photos of goats with the gray tone that you describe but they were all clipped for show which usually makes the coat lighter. It's possible that there's another rare dilution acting alone or in tandem with chocolate, but I'd guess that it's more likely just an uncommon expression.


Thank you so much! 
That was somewhat what I was suspecting... At any rate the slate grey is cool. (Better photos soon...) I have a kind of monochromatic color scheme to my barn yard; everything is black, white, or shades of grey; Black Arabian and blue roan half Arabian sport horses, black and blue Sumatra/Ameraucana/Silkie/Modern Game chickens, black Llamas and Alpacas, Dobermans, and a black unicorn pack goat doe I rescued tha Ash is going to be a companion for. I am thinking of breeding blue roan into my goats (for continuity) so I was trying to get an idea how to plan her future breedings


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Both shades of chocolate are dominant over black which is wild type. If her parents were both solid white they must both be carriers of recessive black which is highly unusual, but not unheard of.

When I did some more reading I found that their are occurrences of the taupe/silver brown mentioned above specifically in angora. With your description of the mechanism of chocolate and silver dilutions, it seems likely that there may be such a mutation in goats as well to suppress the brown pigmentation - but it must be quite rare since I haven't read about it in any of my research. I would hypothesize that it may have something to do with the brown locus as well; whether it's a separate allele or a modifier on the chocolate brown allele is hard to say. From what I've read it seems that the brown alleles have only been guessed at based on expression and not actually mapped.


----------



## oakshirefarms (Jul 5, 2013)

I don't know much about genetics and colorations, but I can say I do love hers. Very nice! I am interested to see what develops from her future.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Look what I found:

"D can either refer to "dense" in the dominant state, or "dilute" in the recessive state. The dilute modifiers (dd) are black to blue/grey and red to tan/cream."

This is from a LaMancha page. I can't find ANY corroboration elsewhere so they may have just stolen the notion from cat/dog/etc color genetics, but since there is no evidence about the genetics behind the red/tan/cream/white dilution, it's totally plausible.


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

@OakShireFarm
Thanks you, I also found her quite charming! 

@Wild Hearts Ranch
So fantastic! Hopefully there is some basis for it other than just parallels with dogs. I find the goats fascinating because they really do seem to have many of the same grok or expressions as both dogs and horses! It's weird like a half way in between kind of thing, eventhough biologically it is never quite that simple.

Like with dogs there is Black and Tan and dillute brown, "stag" (which creates the Cou Clair and Cou blanc dark shading... Which parallels the black counter shade of a German Shepard -in dogs that's called "Stag") and of course there is also the Sundgau (the same color is seen in dogs like huskies and mini schnauzers, and it appears to be relate to the Black and Tan)

And then you see Bays (chamoise), Roans (pygmie people call it "Agouti", and ironically in horses the BAY and not the Roan color is called "Agouti"... But it is what creates the dark color points and silver shading in the body... And it inherits the same way in goats and horses so it is most likely the same kind of gene)

It is fascinating. You see so many parallels you assume that many things would work the same way. I wonder, I noticed The occasional roan in LaManchas also (shopping for roan semen for my girls) and that breed fascinated me because of the common occurence of Black and Tan (I almost got a trio of Black and Tans because they reminded me of my Dobermans... And it would be fun to have "DoberGoats" running with the hounds!) I will have to investigate the genetics observations of them further!


----------



## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I would say chocolate as well


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

The Agouti locus has been identified in many species. Expressions vary but essentially it controls the location of phaeomelanin and eumalanin production, which seems to be a consistent variable (is that an oxymoron? lol) in many mammals.

Couldn't tell ya why Pygmy people use it to refer to their grey goats - which are technically not roan either; that's a separate gene that controls white patterning as with horses. Grey agouti is an allele of the agouti locus but so are the other Pygmy colors AFAIK (unless they carry dominant black instead of recessive.)


----------



## mistydaiz (Jan 28, 2011)

For Swiss breeds, that diluted color is called lavender. Chocolate is more for Nigerians.
So I would call her a lavender two tone chamoisee.
Lavenders and chocolates are different names but the same color genetic, called the Brown locus.
That gene turns any and all black in coat to brown.
There are three types of brown in that genetic locus.
Light brown, medium brown, and dark brown.
The light brown can look like a silver Doberman, some Toggenburgs look silvery, especially if they are shaved down. 
The dark brown would be the chocolate many Nigerians are.
And the medium brown would be the "red" that many Pygmys are.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I don't like that terminology. In most breeds lavender refers to something else entirely. And like I mentioned there's a very real possibility that there's a black dilution which looks silver - since we know that red dilutions exist, but the genetics behind them have not been proven.


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

I have had a couple local breeders look at her and also say "Lavender", so I am assuming that is what she must be. In certain lighting she does appear brown, so that would make sense if it was a brown loci gene motification cluster. However, 90% of the time or better she APPEARS to be a silver or charcoal grey. I am also not certain I like the term "Lavender" for it, as I have negative associations with dilution genes named that in poultry. But I believe within the goat scene that is the term used to describe this coloration. 

As I said previously, I have been active in the dog show scene, and she is EXACTLY the color of a nice Weimeraner! Right down to the silver eyes. Definitely there is dilution because her skin is the same color as her fur ("self colored" is what it is called in that scene). 

And I also believe that the same dilution factor that makes "blue" in dogs (not "roaned black" but actual dilute of black) must be possible in goats (the melanin that makes black in the hair is the same in mammals, so if there is a "fade factor" gene in one, it is POSSIBLE across the board... But if it has been seen or maintained is another story all together) anyway I don't believe this to be what she is anyway. It would be nice, just not likely... 

Whatever you call her though, I believe the universal consensus of all who have seen and met her is that she is "LOVELY!" 
I am glad to have her, and her name has been expanded to "Ashre" which is Hebrew and means: "Blessed, Happy and Praiseworthy"


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Ok, I had to do some more research since you keep referencing Weimeraners. Turns out they are not only recessive for dilute (dd), they are recessive for liver (bb) which is what produces the unique color known as isabella. This coincides with what I had mentioned before about the silver and chocolate possibly acting together. Goats do carry the recessive liver but they also carry dominant brown alleles above the black, which dogs don't, so there are numerous possible combinations. I wonder if Toggenburgs are carriers of dilute - come to think of it, they have white swiss markings so maybe the dilute is playing on both the phaeomelanin and the already-browned eumalanin...could explain why Toggs seem to express chocolate lighter than other breeds that carry it (i.e. ND). 

I have two junior does whose eyes don't seem to be getting dark. I'm still pondering their genetic color status, now I have something more to consider! I love trying to unravel these puzzles.

And yes, I agree that she's lovely! Especially considering you got such an unusual color from two plain white parents. (White...dilution....hmmm....ok, off to bed!  )

MTA: Of course I had to keep reading...in dog genetics there is another locus called I that effects the shade of phaemelanin produced, which is more complex than the on/off action of D and would explain the various shades of red, gold, cream, and white. Plus another hypothesized locus that affects lightened areas of phaemelanin similar to eyebars and light bellies on agouti goats. Why aren't goat geneticists looking at other species with similar patterns and analogous modes of inheritance that have been studied in more detail? I think it's time for me to start a new thread, lol.


----------



## Suntoo (Nov 14, 2013)

BlaqueUnicornAdventures said:


> And I also believe that the same dilution factor that makes "blue" in dogs ...
> Whatever you call her though, I believe the universal consensus of all who have seen and met her is that she is "LOVELY!"
> I am glad to have her, and her name has been expanded to "Ashre" which is Hebrew and means: "Blessed, Happy and Praiseworthy"


She's beautiful....

I believe in the cat world she'd be called BLUE.

Beautiful!
(I'll take one please.)
:lovey:


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

Color accurate photo...
She is as sweet as she is pretty.


----------



## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Pretty girl! I have an Alpine buck that color. Unfortunately, his mom is 50% and the dad was 100%- but I am going to 
use him on some of my friend's does to see what colors we can come up with! We call him Liver! I had no idea of the real color!


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

Goats Rock said:


> Pretty girl! I have an Alpine buck that color. Unfortunately, his mom is 50% and the dad was 100%- but I am going to
> use him on some of my friend's does to see what colors we can come up with! We call him Liver! I had no idea of the real color!


I would love to see photos!
...and maybe semen, I would love to have a whole herd like her that matches her. (and since I live on an outter Hawaiian Island, it is easier to get boys in a thermos than to have her go visit them)


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

I think I may have found the elusive blue dillute!
Shopping for semen I found a non roan soft grey (without brown undertones) self colored goat in Sable Saanens!

I also found a stud very similar in color to Ashre right beside him. 
And some interesting genetic notes about sables and possible other genes in sables (like extreme roan/Rabicano/Sabino type colors! 

I may buy semen from him just to test it on my girls one year. Out of my black doe it could potentially replicate itself. And who knows what it will do with my Laveder/Dun girl


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

I was also looking at semen from the Lavender male next to him to possibly replicate Ashres color in Hozygous state to see if it changes the expression of the dillute.
You can tell the one above is clearly more "blue grey" instead of having the brown undertones.

Just a fun intellectual discovery I may want to play with in the next few years


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

What did you find about sables? I've been trying to reasearch the sable allele but it's very hard to find any info.


----------



## Zarreebe (Jun 8, 2014)

When you get these colours in greyhounds, the rusty, liver or chocolate brown is known as dun (dun dilution of black) and the even blue grey is known as blue (blue dilution of black). Both these genes are recessive and dun is very rare but blue quite common. They both dilute black pigment, but the blue and dun genes can occur in brindles and fawns as well - so you can get blue brindles and blue fawns and dun brindles and dun fawns). The best way to pick a dun fawn, for example, is that the dog has a chocolate rather than black coloured nose. Interestingly a blue dun greyhound (dilute black and homozygous at both the blue and dun loci) is the paler almost pinkish Weimaraner colour. I once saw what I'm pretty sure was a blue dun fawn greyhound - it's colour could best be described as a pinkish fawn! Not saying that the colours work the same way in goats - but they might.


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

Zarreebe said:


> When you get these colours in greyhounds, the rusty, liver or chocolate brown is known as dun and the even blue grey is known as blue. Both these genes are recessive and dun is very rare but blue quite common. They both dilute black pigment, so the best way to pick a dun fawn, for instance, is that the dog has a chocolate rather than black coloured nose. Interestingly a blue dun greyhound (homozygous at both the blue and dun loci) is the paler almost pinkish Weimaraner colour. Not saying that the colours work the same way in goats - but they might.


That was exactly the example I gave! Except I used Doberman/Minpins as the example. I am sure it works similar in goats...


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> What did you find about sables? I've been trying to reasearch the sable allele but it's very hard to find any info.


Interesting Sable color article:
http://internationalsablebreedersassociation.vpweb.com/Color-Inheritance-Articles.html

I randomly happened across a photo of a clearly blue roan sable and a Craigslist ad that showed a Saanen that had grey color in certain places... I thought I would investigate the breed a little... I am interested in the "almost white" patterns after the Craigslist ad. Not because I want them, but I interested what's I be hiding behind the white (there are several genetic recipes for it, so who knows what color is hiding out under it!

It is similar to Ashre... She had 2 white parents and ended up that Wearaner/lavender/dun color. You never know what is under it... And since I was hoping to have roan, I decided to investigate sables. Interesting read even though it doesn't REALY shed much light on the genetics it is fascinating


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Yeah, I've read that one. I have a doeling (Boer/Kiko) with that grey stripe. Her sire is the blueish color. I don't know whether or not that's the sable allele though; there are goats with a much more defined pattern that are sable but the description also says "can be white." Huh??


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

Before I got Ashre, I was looking at Saanens from some other dairies off island, and I noticed some of the Kids were different than the white with pink skin, some had self-colored skin and little colored patches in certain places that were only colored in the under coat and not the top coat. They looked white, but upon close inspection they weren't completely. The breeders told me those ones turn white quickly, and get more pigment in their skin. 

...it would only be speculation, but I do know that there are multiple genetic recipes for white coloration (rather, the absence of pigment) in horses there are at least 4 different ways to get there, and in chickens there are at least 3 different genes that can do it (probably more). It seems to me that the Sable is simply a Saanen that isn't white.
Perhaps, there are more than one gene responsible for the predominantly white breed (seems likely there are 2 different forms of it present in the breed) and that under the white there are other things happening.

The article mentions sables having a high tendency toward a roan expression that spreads, that was somewhat interesting, because that is what it felt like I was seeing in some of the kids I looked at that had the colored under coats, which turned white as they mature. It is a pity this isn't better understood in goats, because with poultry in the last 10 or so years the understanding of different color genes is pretty well understood even if the genes aren't officially mapped. (The rules of heredity, make it fairly easy to identify dominant and recessesive traits, although Polygenic ones are somewhat more complicated)

At any rate I definitely am going to be trying to get my hands on some semen from those two sables and see what it does with my black and lavender/dun girls in the future! Not for official study (although if anyone is working in a lab and wants to sequence them I am fully willing to have their blood drawn or send hair samples) but just out of my own curiosity.

Considering I am not exactly sure what is in my does genetic recipes though, they probably aren't the best for study. Ash -the Lavender/Dun is out of two whites and I have no idea what the black ones background entails (she is a rescued orphan) but if genetics in goats is like it is in other animals (and why wouldn't it be) I at least know the phenotype a I am working with! I mean I Know Moesha (the orphan) is black, so I know there are melanizing genes at work. And I know Ashre is her color... So I a least have a starting point


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

As far as I know Saanens have been conclusively determined to be dominant red with some combination of dilutions that takes them all the way to white - some will come out very light cream instead. Since it's dominant to all other agouti alleles they can be carriers of color and go generations without it popping up. In theory they could carry any agouti allele under the red/white, and Sable will accept any pattern, but there is a specific allele named sable that may have multiple expressions including the "blue" roaning, from what little I've been able to find about it. I suspect that I have one with the blue version and one with a more solid roan expression, and they may both be "sable." Or I could be totally wrong 

You're right that most traits can be mapped via inheritance, which is why I'll be keeping close records! I just realized yesterday that half of my herd are various colors that I'm not sure of the genetic makeup, so it will be interesting to see how the kids shake out.


----------



## BlaqueUnicornAdventures (May 14, 2014)

I had a thought regarding the "SABLE" (which like "Roan" is a term to describe something that can be caused by several different genetic "recipes") 

"SABLE" is often used (outside of goats) to describe the exact opposite patterning as "roan". While "roan" is a base color with an intermixing of WHITE hairs in it, the term "SABLE" is often used to describe a base color with an intermixing of BLACK hairs.

Follow me here: 
So in German Shepards, it is called "Sable" when they have the tan color with the black "saddle" markings of various sizes and intensities. It can vary in expression from almost solid black to barely peppered with black hairs around the shoulders. It is also seen in Huskies frequently on a white background instead of a tan one. My mind draws a parallel to this in goats with the Cou Blanc and Cou Clair markings... they seem similar.
I know in horses they call that "sooty".

anyway if I were to venture a guess about the "sable allel" that is what I would guess it is referencing instead of the sable breed itself, which appears to be just a Saanen with color -ANY COLOR- (as I understand it)

The terminology gets somewhat confusing, with broad general terms (that are used to describe specific color patterns) being used to name a breed.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

That's indeed possible, since agouti locus controls the location of phaemelanin vs eumalanin. The darker expressed sable seems to be a light brownish base with black hairs intermixed, plus white swiss markings. The blue might just be missing the brown beneath it?


----------

