# Emergency, Please Help!



## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Yesterday late afternoon I found my Nubian buckling dead. There was a bunch of foamy liquid coming out of his mouth/lungs and I assumed it was interstitial pneumonia since he was fine a few hours before.
This morning we found our Alpine cross doeling down, unable to stand and foam around her mouth. None of my goats have been getting grain lately but they've had absolutely unlimited quality hay. We did just switch the hay, but we get the same stuff as the Casette Family so I definitely know it's not the hay.
Also, about 4 weeks ago, I noticed a few of my goats coughing and having breathing troubles so I treated them all for 5 days with electrolytes, vit. B complex, powdered tetracycline, Sulmet and oxtetracycline. I also used VetRx and Redcell and dewormed with SafeGuard for 3 days, waited 2 days and gave them Ivomec. I gave the oxytetracycline to the goats that were coughing and wheezing the first day, then gave Sulmet and powdered tetra for the next 5 days to everyone. I gave vit. B everyday as well as VetRx and some Redcell.
My Nubian buckling, this Alpine doeling and my other Alpine doeling are also the ones that had been coughing but they were doing fine after the treatment. I had to go to Illinois so my mother was with them for 6 days (which is why they're not getting grain now, we had some rumen issues from too much grain) but I've been home for a week and a half with no coughing from the ones that are now sick.

I really don't know what to do, I brought the doe inside, she has a little pool with hay in it and a bowl of warm alfalfa cube mash. Shes eaten about a half cup of dry alfalfa stems in the last hour. I can clarify if anything I wrote doesn't make sense. 

Also, might not be relevant, but all 3 (dead buck, sick doe, weak doe) all came from the same place and I noticed a sore on Sicilia's (the doe inside) nose. It's small, but it looks kind of like it was full and now it's drained. There's also a little raw spot on the side of her nostril and the other doe has raw spots around her vagina. 

Sicilia is also dripping pink tinged mucus/saliva from her nose and mouth.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

do you have a vet you can take her to...like NOW? Pink tinged indicates blood. I don't know what to tell you other then get to a vet...but I have a fantastic vet and know that a lot of you don't have that luxury.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm on the AASRP website looking for a vet near me that will take them. I started looking before I left but the local vet wasn't particularly helpful and I didn't know about the AASRP.
I don't know if I can afford a vet, I did just apply for an outside job to provide straight goat cash for instances like this, but I guess it's too little too late.
How much do small ruminant vets usually run?
The nearest is an hour away, the second nearest whom I would assume has more experience is 3 hours away.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Wow!!! I am no expert, but if I could yes, I would take her to a vet... I'm kind of thinking lung worms??? Which only Valbalzon and ivomec plus only kills. How is her temp? If it's high then maybe pneumonia, but that wouldn't explain the blood... I would give her some B complex, thiamine, and drench her with electrolytes and probiotics. Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in. Keeping the body hydrated is a must though.... Best wishes!


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

GroundGoats said:


> We did just switch the hay, but we get the same stuff as the Casette Family so I definitely know it's not the hay.


What kind of hay is it?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Do they have any neurological symptoms? Salivating and inability to stand could be listeriosis.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Foamy bloat?


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

That's what I'm wondering too, Sydney.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you said one is weak, is she walking drunk, star gazing? are any of the grinding teeth? doing a kind of yawn, twist of the jaw? Chewing a cud? Any fever in the suriving does? Pooping berries? My first thought is poison...check hay for any weeds, look around to see if anything was blown in to your goat yard..

get their temp ( 101.5- 103.5 is normal range) High fever needs antibiotics, low temps needs cd antitoxin.....
listen to the rumen
Milk of magnesia; C D antitoxin, a clean source of hay and leaves 
lots of fluids to help flush the system...


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

GroundGoats said:


> I'm on the AASRP website looking for a vet near me that will take them. I started looking before I left but the local vet wasn't particularly helpful and I didn't know about the AASRP.
> I don't know if I can afford a vet, I did just apply for an outside job to provide straight goat cash for instances like this, but I guess it's too little too late.
> How much do small ruminant vets usually run?
> The nearest is an hour away, the second nearest whom I would assume has more experience is 3 hours away.


I'm sorry. I know several on here say it's super hard to find a vet. Price really depends where you are. My vet is awesome and isn't that expensive. He also takes payments. Good luck finding someone and I hope your other goats are ok.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

GoatCrazy said:


> That's what I'm wondering too, Sydney.


That's the first thing that came to mind. And, by what the OP is saying, it sounds similar. From what I have read on here, it can ail a whole herd instead of just one goat like regular boat.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I doubt it's the hay. It's mixed legume and grass hay and a lot of people use it for their goats just fine including the current ADGA president I guess. I was having an issue with our hay quality before so switched specifically because it was better quality. Also, everyone gets the same hay and their pen is surrounded on all sides by organic farmland with woods buffeting from the road. Only 2 out of 12 are really sick, 2 have an infrequent cough, the rest look totally fine. The one that died and the 2 that are really sick are from the same place. They were sick when I got them, I quarantined for 2 months and they improved, were doing great and everything until now. 

Regular berries, no fever, no drunk walking or star gazing, I noticed a little coronary inflammation on the one that won't walk but when I press on it it doesn't seem to bother her. She chews her cud and will eat some alfalfa but won't drink, the other is actively eating and drinking. I drenched both with electrolytes and probiotics and gave them pretty decent Vit. B doses. They aren't really improving or degrading regarding overall condition, except Sicilia seems to be coughing up more blood than before. The one that eats really just looks thin and a little stiff. I would tube Sicilia but I'm afraid of drowning her either with her own saliva or the fluids.

I found a couple vets a bit closer than the others, now we're trying to get one to come out since I would like all of them to get checked out. Not many vets here make house calls and the ones that do have limited appointments I hear.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Sure hope you can get a vet out. My vet makes emergency after hours calls too. You might seriously consider taking the really sick one in to the vet and having the others checked later?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Not knowing whats going on I would put them back in quaritine...coughing blood is scary...could be lung worms causing coughing, internal CL or CAE...I would have the vet test for these things..


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

janeen128 said:


> Wow!!! I am no expert, but if I could yes, I would take her to a vet... I'm kind of thinking lung worms??? Which only Valbalzon and ivomec plus only kills. How is her temp? If it's high then maybe pneumonia, but that wouldn't explain the blood... I would give her some B complex, thiamine, and drench her with electrolytes and probiotics. Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in. Keeping the body hydrated is a must though.... Best wishes!


I don't know anything about this topic, but I've read about lungworm in other animals and the symptoms seem the same. Is there a reason it couldn't be lungworm?

Edit: I'm reposting the question because I didn't see it addressed and it seems like a very good guess.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Axykatt said:


> I don't know anything about this topic, but I've read about lungworm in other animals and the symptoms seem the same. Is there a reason it couldn't be lungworm? Edit: I'm reposting the question because I didn't see it addressed and it seems like a very good guess.


That's why I was thinking lung worms... The coughing and the bloody foam is why I thought of it, but someone also pointed out that it could be internal CL too. Thankfully I've never dealt with either, but I'm hoping for lung worms, but I think it needs to be treated ASAP, and aggressively. Then Scottyhorse had another idea, of a certain bloat. So without knowing for sure what it is, if still no vet I would treat for Lungworms and for that kind of bloat...aggressive. That is just what I would do. I don't have a vet yet either, no one wants to treat goats around here


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I agree, without us seeing the goats in person, I would have a vet out. And test them for CAE and CL. 

Janeen, where in WA are you? We used to live on the west coast, may be able to help you find a vet. You can PM me if you want.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Lungworms is an excellent guess. Sorry for not addressing it.
What can I use to treat lungworms? I thought the Ivomec took care of them... :/

I'm having all my goats tested for CL and CAE. Internal CL has been lingering in the back of my mind. If that's the case hubby wants me to put them down rather than have something our kids can catch.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Ivomec does take care of it but works best for lung worm if injected. 

The Plus in Ivomec Plus takes care of liverfluke.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yep, I just read that too Ksalvagano 
How would you treat aggressively though? I couldn't find that.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Treat 3 times every 10 days.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

do the ivomec Sub Q..its less painful for them..but it does sting so expect a reaction...I give it where the neck meets the body..pull upa nice tent and inject there...then get them walking...the sting does not last too long...

best wishes


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

We ended up losing the Alpine cross doe as well.
We had no further issues with any of our other goats but gave them all Ivomec for lungworms again.
We decided to downsize our herd so that we could budget more for vet expenses and found homes for 6 of our goats, we kept 4. All the goats that left got veterinarian care and checked out healthy.

Now we have our first babies, from our Nigerian Dwarf pair.
Triplets. Happened really fast, we were ready, but got fleeced by Angel. We use the back of our pickup with a cap on for a space for her and the babies, she jumped out when I went to clean it out a bit.
I put her in with the other goats, a hour later, just after dark we heard the queerest squealing sounds and went and found all three in the dark in the main barn.

Two boys and a girl.
The boys are fine, the girl not so much.
Angel totally ignored the girl and one of the boys from the get, I got her to accept the boy once he would stand and got both boys nursing.
I got 1oz of colostrum into the doe, decided to bottle feed because she's so small and so weak. 
After getting that into her, I went to see if I could get more from Angel, but there was nothing left and both boys were crying and bumping her too.
Her hind legs are weak, front legs stiff, she lays her head flat back against her back, and has tremors, she stood for the first time about an hour ago, at 19 hours old, after I gave her 1ml Sel. Vit. E gel, .2 cc's fort. Vit. B Com orally. She lost her strength again, when I fed her next feeding, I gave her .2 cc's FVBC again and .1 cc red cell, she stood up and actually took steps. She weighs 2lbs 1oz. No visible defects. She's eaten about 7 ounces so far, 1 from mom via bottle.

She's passed all her meconium, but she's wobbly again now, her legs slide out from underneath her. it's time for another feeding. I'm giving her cows colostrum since I can't get any from Angel. I give her an ounce at a time warmed to 101.9. The colostrum is from our cows here, I figured it was a decent antibody source. I'm going to give her another .2 cc's or FVBC orally, I don't know what else to do.
We still haven't found a suitable vet yet.

I suspect Polio or WMD. We've experienced fertility issues here, would low copper do this to her?

She just twitched 3 times and flopped on her side... I don't want to lose another kid.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

She perks up and stops jerking when she eats and gets vit. B.
Then she convalesces rapidly.
She's breathing rapidly too, between 45 and 70 breaths per minute.
Is it normal for her to flop over in any position for a nap?
And one of the boys is crying now, like he's hungry but I watched him nurse 3 times in a row and Angel's udder feels empty still. They should be fine since they got a decent amount of colostrum until her milk comes in, right?
The one who needed the most help has tremors it seems and he stumbles more than the other. He's also the one that's crying.
How fast can bacteria travel up the umbilical cord?
It took me a minute to get to dipping their cords and they weren't exactly born in the most sanitary conditions, actually Angel picked the exact opposite of such as a delivery spot. But they're totally dried up now. And they're in cleaning quarters and were I'd say less than twenty minutes after birth.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

At this age they need to be eating very frequently. Check their tummies to see if they feel full; she might have milk even if her udder doesn't look like it. 

Perking up after vitamin B does sound like polio but I would expect that to take longer to manifest. Can you get straight Thiamine and see if she does better on that? Selenium deficiency would have been my first guess but you say you already gave her sel/E. Might be good to give some to the weaker boy too.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Also I would be giving the B as injection; not sure how well it will be absorbed orally since their rumens aren't functioning yet.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would be giving her a shot of it and do at least 1cc. I suspect she may not have gotten enough in utero and then being chilled didn't help.

Sounds like you also need to consider bottle feeding the boys. If mom isn't producing enough milk, they will slowly starve to death.

Your problems sound more like lack of food along with deficiency in selenium and copper. 

I would be giving all those kids shots of B Complex and a minimum of 1cc. I would also get that selenium gel into the boys too.

How often and how much are you feeding the doeling?


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I do not want to stick this baby.
Where would I give it to her anyway?
She's so tiny!
How fast would the selenium take to work?
And I thought for the first 24 hours they were able to absorb vitamins, minerals, antibodies?
She grinds her teeth, yawns and sticks out her tounge.

Can I give them the cows colostrum too?
They don't seem to have full tummies.
Bottle Feeding isn't an issue if that's best.
It looks like it has milk, (the udder) but when I try to pull anything out there's nothing.
She has a rather meaty udder and her peak with her last trips was like 2cups a day according to the woman I bought her from. 
I milked her out 2 a day for months, she didnt breed that year, these are our first kids.

Angel's vulva area is a bit swollen and a little red, I'm not worried cuz so was I after 9 lbs of baby, but what should I be looking for/concerned about?
I have armfuls of books and pdf's out the back door, but I would feel so much better with personal advice to go along too.

I read on another site (forgot which) that amber birthing fluids, which I assume means amniotic fluids, can denote a copper deficiency. Has anyone heard this?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Amber is normal. As far as the doe look for unusual colored discharge (clear, amber, or red/brown are normal) or a bad smell. They will be swollen and have discharge for up to several weeks.

Grinding teeth is usually a sign of pain. I would be more worried about her dying from a deficiency than being upset about getting poked. Vitamin B is best done IM but can also be given SQ. 

Sometimes the doe will not let her milk down for you while she's nursing, but if the babies are acting hungry and their bellies are soft you need to start bottle feeding. I suspect the antibodies in cow colostrum won't be compatible, but from a nutritional standpoint it's probably fine.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I gave her 2 ounces the last time at 1, she's getting another in 5 minutes.
I've been feeding her every 2 to 3 hours, 1 to about 1.5 ounces. She's now had 9 ounces since birth.

Mom had free access hay to herself for the last 3 weeks, and my goats share a 900lb bale free access anyway. They get 18% sweet dairy for goats, about a lb each per day. I mix kelp and minerals in their grain. Angel has been fed separately for the last two months, since I lost the others in an attempt to do extra for these kids. I feel like the hay is pretty inferior and that the minerals are too low of a quality for them. We need to readjust their housing situations as well, they might be a bit drafty where they are. 

I gave her .5ml SQ, where's the best spot for IM for such a tiny goat?
I feel like the boys got a good amount of her colostrum but there's nothing else. Unless they nurse every 15 minutes. This a doe that kinda hates everyone so I have been leaving them alone mostly, I check right after I feed the doeling. I see them nurse, but they seem to give up in frustration or she just walks off away from them.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I got the other .5 vit. B into her. She ate another 2oz of colostrum. 
Her head twitching seems worse.
She's walking more, still unsteady.
The boys have somewhat full bellies, more than earlier.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

We did the math on the selenium I gave her.
She got 0.00488mg/kg and 0.01359 ppm in total.
Is that enough?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can do all shots SQ except hormones. I would only give one shot a day of B Complex.

Was it BoSe that you gave? I give my Nigerians 1/4 cc the day after they are born and I will give my full size kids 1/2 cc of BoSe. 

She may have more going on internally. What is her temp?

On the boys, I would be weighing them daily. You need a scale that weighs in pounds and ounces or pounds and tenths of pounds. A hanging fish scale works well.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> You can do all shots SQ except hormones. I would only give one shot a day of B Complex.
> 
> Was it BoSe that you gave? I give my Nigerians 1/4 cc the day after they are born and I will give my full size kids 1/2 cc of BoSe.
> 
> ...


How much selenium and vit. E in a dose of that size?
Is BoSe 1mg selenium per ml?
I gave her 1ml selenium/vit. E paste, .1ml red cell for a total of .00488 mg per 2.2 lbs/1 kg, her body weight.
How much do your kids usually weigh for the 1/4 cc dose?
I have a kitchen scale that weighs in lbs, lbs/oz, ounces, grams, oz/grams all that jazz.

She is processing the vit. B I would assume. Her pee was crazy bright yellow!
Is it normal for her to lay with her head stretched back over her back?
Her temp was 101.7 this morning, 100.9 about 2 hours ago.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I give 2cc selenium Vit e gel to my new borns..
Her temp is low...Try a heat pad or putting her in front of a heater...


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Are all gels created equal?
I don't want to give her too much, but I don't want to not give her enough. 
I wrapped her up in some flannel and have her in bed next to me next to the wood stove. I'll take her temp again.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Are all gels created equal?
I don't want to give her too much, but I don't want to not give her enough. 
I wrapped her up in some flannel and have her in bed next to me next to the wood stove. I'll take her temp again.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Should be the same stuff.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Can you actually put the goats on that kitchen scale?


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> Can you actually put the goats on that kitchen scale?


Yep.
I swaddle them up, set them in a shoe box and weigh them. We have other scales, this is just convenient. It's easy to weigh the cloth and the box first.

Less twitching now.
I gave her more selenium/vit E with her last bottle.
Should I supplement until she's eating solids?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Selenium vit e gel is once a month...so she should be good for now...once a day B complex is a great support vitamin. I like to give each new born two squirts of Nutra drench...Keeping her warm and fed every hour or so until she is stronger is her best bet..


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Thank you so much for your help, everyone, really, thank you.

She's eating more vigorously, she bumped the bottle right out of my hand!
I have her in a tote close to the stove with fleece and cotton in the bottom, a hot hand warmer under the fleece on one side and a big piece of flannel folded up and covering 3/4 of the top.
Her temp was 100.7 about 45 minutes ago, right after her latest feeding. Her belly feels full, she hasn't urinated since about 7 or 8 though, I didn't mark the time.
So glad we have all sort of fabric around! It's silly seeing baby goats draped in tie dye though!


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

So what do you think they had? If it was lungworm....how do they get that?


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

They can get it from other infected animals or the environment I think.
The two that I lost were the only ones that came from the place where I bought them. They're weren't in the greatest of care. They may have even died from something altogether completely different, but I treated the rest as though it was lungworms cuz it couldn't really hurt. I need to find/afford a vet.

The doeling is better this morning. I had her wait in between feedings for 4 hours since she hadn't pee'd and her belly was tight. When I did feed her, she went immediately, then again 5 minutes later. She went again twice this morning, so I think it's all in working, steady order. 

I made her a sweater out of a wool sock ^_^


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## Darlaj (Dec 10, 2013)

Well I wanna see the socks sweater I am glad she is improving nice work I learn so much from everyone's experiences!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

so glad she is up and going for you...keep her temp above 100 before feeding milk, anything less she can not digest the milk...sounds like she is beginning to stablize...
you want to see her poop shortly after each bottle...and pee more often then poop...


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

She doesn't really poop too much, maybe she's efficient?
She poops normally though. 
I started mixing in powdered goat milk with the colostrum to switch over gradually and she seems to be doing better, but she just had a crazy jerky movement spell, so I put her down in case it was a seizure (I was feeding her at the time). She did some weird things with her neck and rolling her head around after have convulsions and muscle spasms for about 1.5 seconds.
She would dip her head low, almost to the ground, the bring it up around her left side, nose pointed toward her tail, then fling her head back parallel with her spine, then bring it straight up and down to a normal position.
She did it rapidly about 8 times in a row, then slowed and did half the movement, all the way up to the flinging her head back part, then stopped. 
After that, she ran around for the first time, but kept getting stuck jumping sideways. She finally figured out how to just WALK forward.
Every other time it was running or jumping to make forward but still sideways movement.

I had another doe who wouldnt settle, that came here with Angel, that stretched her head back like this doe did during her fit whenever she got nervous or excited. She wasn't Angels sister, but they had common relatives and were bred an born at the same farm.

There was also a cow here that died from Listeriosis. 
It was not properly disposed of.
This was before we began actively being involved here, we were informed about it after it had happened and were told that the cow in question had 'head trauma' when we had seen it walking in uncontrollable left hand circles right through electric fences.
I asked my MIL about it today and she said that listeria is every where, perfectly safe, yada yada, despite her cow dying from it 4 years ago.

Anyway, the nervous fit has freaked me out and made me suspect listeriosis AND I remember Angel being in heat in October so that doesn't help because it means they're early  

Is it safe to switch her to straight milk now?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Poor baby...

Switching from colostrum and powder goats milk to whole cows Milk or goats milk?

Go slowly,,, begin adding the new milk to her old milk, each day increase new milk and decrease old milk until she is fulling on her new milk...If goats milk is not an option choose Whole cows milk...


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Yes, whole cow's milk is better than any kind of powdered. Raw if you can get it.

If the kids are alive they're not a month early. She must have been bred sooner and just had a hormone spike in October.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

It's whole powdered goats milk. 
I can get raw milk.
I was asking if I could switch her straight from colostrum to the powder all the way, but you answered with telling me to go slowly.
I've been switching about a teaspoon each time.
She doesn't really have much of an appetite.
It's difficult to keep her temp up and her brothers were shivering outside so I brought them in too, she's been warmer since.
No other episodes thus far other than the same twitching since the beginning.
She's more into just laying on her side now.
I have no idea how a 'normal' kid should act.
By comparing her to her brothers, she's really struggling.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

the fresh raw milk is better than powder or you can get whole cows milk from the grocery store...

with her struggling I would feed her less but more often, weigh her and multiply that by 16 t get her weight in oz then multiply that by 10% to see how much she needs per day....then divide that into 6-8 small feeding...small meals like mom would do. 
Nutra dench is a good vitamin for them all...2 squirts 
also ( and forgive if you all rready said this) I would give selenium Vit e gel...

She sounds like she will struggle for some time...if she was cold too long, there could be brain damage from blood flow being too slow..nerological issues..ect..Hopefully she gets strong for you...sounds like she is in good care

best wishes


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I have a friend with a healthy Nubian doe that has been in milk for 2+ years!
Anyway, I can call her and see if I could get some milk.
I guess she produces a lot but their kids don't drink it and her and her husband are getting fat off it!
Needless to say, they have extra in their opinion.
Would that be fine?

I weigh her in ounces specifically, I feel like I may have overfed her colostrum, since she got 13 ounces in the first 32 hours, she's on the powder only now and evacuating both bladder and bowels after a bottle! I was so excited! LOL!
She seems more lively. I think she was constipated. I had to pull a poo out of her... Super strange... Gross.
Anywy... I managed to keep the box with the kids in it at 80-100 degrees last night, woke up at 6 to all 3 crying for food for the first time! The boys cry, but Brighid never did.
I think I was overfeeding her a bit. She is suckling better now.
Good news! Angel bagged up pretty decent in the time the boys were off her, so I'm not too worried. Imbolc, the smaller of the two(barely!), takes a bottle readily, which was awesome cuz I got to see how a healthy baby hits a bottle! If they suffer weight wise I suppose I could leave Celt on and bottle feed Imbolc, right?

Brighid weighed 38 ounces yesterday, I haven't weighed her yet today. She's gained 6 ounces though! By that, she should get 4 oz a day? She's already gotten that today... 
I'm so overfeeding her!
Am I taking TOO good care of her?! 
And she's had plenty of selenium. I was thinking of giving her Vit. E oil, to help with the constipation too, but she isn't really constipated now...
I can get Nutra-Drench.
I have Benebac tubes that I use for my rabbit kits at birth, can I give them that?
Also Energel? It's a gel paste form of energy like Nutri-Drench.
I have it right here.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Goats milk is perfect!!! ..Its great she is gaining weight, pooping and peeing and active...

You can scooch her milk to 12% feed one OZ a feeding...So 6 times...then after a week wegh again, adjust milk amount to go every 4 hours..see how she does...if she gets runny or constipaded..back off and go slower...: ) no oil in her milk if she is pooping well...let her body do its job without help as much as possible..
A few squirts of Nutra dench will do them all some good...Ive not used theother products so can advice on that : ) 
YOu are doing great with her!!

Best wishes


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I gave her the Benebac, it's a newborn animal probiotic.
I'll try to get the Nutri-Drench today, we're helping friends move so I hope I'll have time when we're in the city doing that.

I call my friend with the Nubian. She said I can have all she'll take!
I'm going in the morning to get fresh milk.
I also found a vet! It's $44.00 per goat for a Wellness Check.
I can afford to take Brighid right now, maybe all 4.
Now I'm wondering if my other goats are bred and if I should have the vet check them all out.

Also, I just went out and body condition scored all my goats.
I use a 9 point scale for a better range.
They're all 5 and 6. My buck is a 5, meaning his spine can be felt, but feels smooth, some fat cover over eye muscle, ribs slightly visible. My other does score 6, meaning they have a smooth look with ribs barely visible, spine smooth and round, significant fat cover felt over eye muscle.
Angel scores a 3. 
Ribs visible, spine prominent and very sharp, no fat cover felt with some possible muscle wasting. Maybe a 3.5, no fat cover but no muscle wasting.

I have no idea why  she was getting extra rations the whole time.
She's the only goat that gets fed separate.
She's such an easy keeper usually, she always looks/feels great.
I noticed some rusty spots on my black Alpine/Angora.
My ND buck has rusty spots, but I think that's his coloring.
No other visible issues.
They look tons better coat and color wise then when I got everyone. :/

I need to reevaluate my management plan I guess.
What brand of mineral would be best for them?
And how can I help Angel?
She gets free access hay 24/7, not the greatest, it's so hard to find good hay. Free access kelp and minerals. 
I give her 1.5 lbs of grain, about 15% protein. It's a dairy sweet mix with alfalfa pellets, oats and BOSS added. I add about a half ounce of kelp and mineral each to her feed to make sure she gets enough. I add a tablespoon of molasses/Red Cell mix. It's mixed 1/2 molasses, 1/4 Red Cell and 1/4 water.

Is 1.5 lbs enough? She only eats as much grain as she wants usually (doesn't every goat) but if I fill the dish she will stop herself. Should I give her free choice?
1.5 lbs is 6 cups of my grain. It weighs exactly 1lb per quart.
Angel normal weigh 65-75lbs.
She's a 30" ND.
She's 4 I believe.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks so much for the support, Cathy.
It really helps to have so reassurance and someone to point me in the right direction!
Thanks to everyone else too!
Did I mention that this little doe has blue eyes!?
She's so pretty!
I'll have to post picture of them all, pictures of the sock sweater too!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

You can run blood tests on the other does through Biotracking. If you have the vet out he can draw the blood for you, shouldn't cost much.

Is Angel the mom? It's possible she wasn't getting enough protein during pregnancy even with the grain. I prefer to add alfalfa before grain since they process it better. Parasites are also a possibility. You have have the vet run a fecal as well; they're around $20 out here.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

How warm is too warm for air temp for a baby goat?
I'm having difficulties keeping her warm again


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Might put her in a tote or box, something draft free to keep the drafts from cooling her down...If her temp runs below 100...put her under a tent made from a towel or blanket and warm the air with a blow dryer...dont blow the air on baby,,just warm the air...if she is in a draft it will be like taking one step forward and two steps back..


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I asked about having the vet draw blood.
It's $25 to have her draw blood, I don't know about processing to have them send it out, but the receptionist was reluctant to even tell me the price on the blood, she definitely didn't want me to send it out myself. 
Is that a ripoff?
The said they could use the portable ultrasound, if I paid for the farm visit. For $105. Then $44 per goat... Ugh.

The day after she kidded I gave Angel Ivomec and started using an herbal wormer. $20 dollars per fecal sounds expensive


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

The test itself is $6. Most people do the draw themselves if they're comfortable. I think it was more like $12 for the draw when I had it done once. My vet's farm call is around $50, and $15 for an ultrasound.

I just looked up the fecal and the test itself is $7.50 through WADDL, but you have to get it to them. You don't have to run them every time you worm but it's good to know what kind of worms you have and if your wormer is effective.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I have her in the tote next to the stove again, I had her out to stretch her legs, I loosely draped a fleece blanket around her and covered the top. It hits the 90's in the box, 100 right under her.
I was using hot hands before, having great luck, but the temp between her and the pack got up to 110 degrees! And I ran out. Is 110 too hot? She seemed really lively then, more alert.
We live in a yurt, it's difficult to maintain a steady temp.
I also forgot we were running wood and the stove almost went out 
We usually run coal!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

A good loose mineral choice is Onyx right now by cargil..but there are many good ones..you dont want any thing made for both sheep and goat..it will not have enough copper. 
Speaking of copper, this could be the color issue you have with rusty color...we copper bolus twice a year here...

$20 for fecal is high IMO..my vet charges $12 I would maybe test a combined sample to get a feel of where my goats are as a herd..maybe do a single sample of one Im concerned about...
You can draw your own blood...its not as hard as you might think then send to biotracking..pregnacy test is $5 and CAE test is $4 ...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

sounds like she is still struggling to maintain her body heat....as for how hot, as long as she is not panty, being active and happy, the temp in her tote should be fine ; )


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Ouch, I just asked my goat vet and they want $35! My horse vet was around $20 and they're usually way more expensive. I'm going to take mine to WADDL; I'm doing one test for the goat who already kidded and was treated with Ivomec +, and a combined sample from all the preggos who will get treated later.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

So I made her a new coat/vest combo.
The vest has a pocket for a hot hand to go in.
I even made matching leg warmers!!
She's been a lot warmer since she's been wearing them.

I think I'll go for a combined fecal first.
Can I send it to your vet? Lol! I feel like the vet here will charge $25+ 
I'm going to save and get a microscope and then go up the university and learn how to fecals. I feel like my local extension offers classes too.

I feel like if I drew blood from my goats, I would end up tearing up an artery and whoever was first victim would bleed out on me and then we would be nowhere. So I dont think I'll be doing that. 

I guess I'll just pay the vet to do it. I'd rather know than not.

Well anyway, the doeling is doing just fine. I got fresh goat milk from my friend. She seems to like to nurse better since the addition, I'm transitioning her slowly though.
Feeding her 12% is more reasonable than 10% I think... at 10% of her body weight split into multiple feedings she'll yell and yell for more than 10 minutes sometimes. And her belly always feels totally empty.
Is it really that bad to feed her an ounce every couple of hours if her belly is empty and she's going to the bathroom just fine?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

The amountyou feed by oz' is just a guide..there is wiggle room there...you want her tummy to feel flat yet firm, not poochin gout or sunken in...So go with 12% and see how she does..add/subtract milk as needed...but usually no more than 1/2-1 oz more . Be sure to keep an eye onher weight..you want to see a gain then adjust milk accordingly...always keep an eye on her tummy and poop : )

Now as for those leg warmers...Got to see pix!!!


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

I have a crappy iPad for Internet, I'll try to get pics up soon though!
I totally took one of my daughters fleece shirts and made her coat and warmers, her vest and the coats for the boys was made from a full size fleece suit for a 12 month old. Super quick and easy.

She's really regular in my opinion.
I think she'll be okay.
I need to start a new post about reevaluating my herd management and bringing them back up to par.
I guess I need more advice!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

its a learning experiance...we all start out with some mistakes and need to revamp our program...I think Im always rethinking things I Never stop learning, I try to keep an open mind for change and new ideas...not easy to do lol


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

No, it isn't. You get into a routine and it's hard to change, even if that is for the best. I feel like I was focusing too closely on my other animals here that the goats just slipped under the radar, Angel in particular. I thought I was giving her enough individual attention and that everyone had everything they needed.
Obviously some things need to change though!

Brighid is now totally on the Nubian milk.
I think she may have gotten a bit in her lung today, but I got out the stethoscope and didn't hear anything too alarming. Soooooo much easier on a baby you can hold with one hand!
Is real powdered goat milk really that bad for kids?
She was gaining weight at exactly the same rate as her brothers, though she might be getting just a bit more milk than them.
I was feeding her Meyenburg Powdered Goat milk.
It's 7% fat and 16% protein.


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## GroundGoats (Sep 17, 2013)

So I'm trying to get the little doeling to nurse off of mom.
She seems to be doing just fine so far, miraculously.
It's been about 5 hours since her last 1oz feeding, her belly feels the same as her brothers, I've seen her attempting to nurse many times, just every time I'm watching Angel will kick her off. :eyeroll: 

Also, is it normal for a 9 day old buck to mount his siblings?
Can he breed at 9 days old?!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Not that I know of - I think around 2 months is the earliest they can mature; does are usually (but not always) slower than boys. But if he's that eager I would plan on either wethering or separating him earlier than you might otherwise.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Its normal..he wil act "manly" but cant breed. Usually til 4 months old...: )


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