# CL infected Savanna Doe



## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

I wasn't familiar with CL until today. My new savanna/boer doe has a round-ish scar on her jaw. I'm terrified that she has CL and that we'll have to cull her. She's such a little ham, and a joy to be around, not to mention that she's a spectacular breeding for. HELP!


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## meluvgoats (Apr 19, 2012)

Can you post a picture up here if the "scar".


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Don't worry yet. Just get her tested and go from there.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

I don't have a pic, and wont be able to get one until tomorrow afternoon. Looks the same as the ones I've seen online  shes one of my two favorite does. 

How do I go about getting her tested and how much will that cost?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

You can go through a vet, state lab, WADDL....WADDL is generally recommended. Google for their website. There are a ton of threads on TGS about testing, what is needed, etc. Use the "search" button at the top of the page...you should be able to find lots of info. on it. :thumb:


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

I think we've decided to keep her, and watch over her to make sure no more abscesses pop up. She's a fine young doe.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I would get her tested then you will know and be able to relax and then also know where to go from there. It is very nerving to think you might have a CL possibility. ... I have an old thread on here about a goat that ended up with a sticker in her jaw, cheek..formed a lump.


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## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

If you keep her I would still suggest testing because there may be internal abcesses that you can see but could still (I think) potentially cause the spread of the disease... It is just good to know what you are dealing with in my opinion....
Good luck!
M.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Even if she does have CL she doesnt need to be culled. Its honestly not that big a deal. I would much rather deal with CL or CAE than johnes.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

CL is a big deal. How does one just go about to try and manage it? (Not easily) It is not ideal to keep a goat with CL especially if you are going to sell any of your goats. I know I would not want to buy from someone who had it on their property. Part of the reason why we are seeing it pop up more and more is because it wasnt a big deal for some and it spread.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Is it on a CL area? Sometimes these lump things do scare us and they end up being a sticker or sliver and nothing more comes of it.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes pics would be good. Especially of the whole girl cause we wanna see her anyway. Its not time to freak out.
This scar could be anything as others have said.
I had a doe get a huge absess on her neck. We drew out the pus & had it sent for testing. There was a small entry wound guess what lab said? Staph & some ecoli, possibly cause by a poke with manure on it. NO CL.
My vet had a cow wanted to test for CL, drew blood wanted me to isolate her I KNEW it wasnt CL. I did not isolate her till it was ready to burst.
At any rate she came back clean. But I hear exudate testing is the best way.


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## Maggie (Nov 5, 2010)

If you don't know the goats vaccination history, the blood testing may not be accurate. If she comes up positive, it could signify exposure to the virus, or it could also signify that she had been vaccinated for CL. I just spoke to a vet at waddl two weeks ago, and apparently they can carry antibodies from the vaccine for 3 years. If you do test blood, do it twice. The vet I talked to said the blood test is more of a screening for herd status, and doesn't neccisarily signify one goat is 100% neg/pos because of false results. We just had a doeling come up with an abcess. She tested negative on her blood tests, but waddl still told me she could still be positive. So we sent in pus, and just found out she is negative for sure. We still have this huge abcess to deal with, so I am sure she is going to have a scar if we lance it.


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## Guest (May 12, 2012)

My Does eat a lot of thorny browse and thistles. I see these lumps quite often and they are usually small and benign. Most do not reoccur and it isn't like they are covered in lumps. I do my own Necropsy's and have never seen any signs of an outbreak. Where she is a meat goat it is more than likely not contagious and is just an abscess. If you wait till it heads and lance it you will know.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

You manage it by vaccinating. Its simple, cheap and effective. I have safely.bought vaccinated kids from herds in which adults have had cl and i never had it spread to my.herd.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I would just hate to have someone put.down an animal unneccessarily when there are other options


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

But I think once an animal has CL .. it has it to stay even after a vacination and that is going to be a problem to manage. This doe more than likely just has a sticker. 'hopefully'


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## shibby7 (Feb 20, 2012)

keren said:


> Even if she does have CL she doesnt need to be culled. Its honestly not that big a deal. I would much rather deal with CL or CAE than johnes.


I have to agree here.....Its not the end of the world, I realize its not something you'd want in your herd, but honestly if you talk to people that are dealing with/Have dealt with it - AND NOT PEOPLE THAT HAVE NEVER HAD IT, they will tell you there are worse things.

I'm always amazed at the amount of people that fret over CL - but don't think even think about Johnes.......

Most goats that get CL, only get it once and are done with it. Its usually only the unthrifty ones that get it repeatedly - and THOSE are the ones that should be culled IMO, but not because they have CL, because they are genetically weaker, and don't add anything of value to the gene pool.

I know its alot different here in Canada though, testing isn't readily available like it is in the states, it costs alot more and can ONLY be done by a vet, you can't send in samples yourself, ever. You can ask every big meat goat breeder here, and I can bet 98% of them will tell you they've had it at one point, most are vaccinating now with great success.

And my own vet has told me, if you haven't gotten it yet, you'll get it eventually.

So if she adds alot to your herd, I wouldn't let this bother you. :2cents:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok, I was not going to post on this one, but now that I see there are people who feel the same as I do, I figure I should step in especially if some one down the road reads this and is dealing with the same thing as this person. 
First of all, not one person has asked this persongoal is with their goats. Are they wanting to go for reg animals?? Have them as pets? Or to just breed and sell the kids at the sale? I think that plays a big role in what she should do, and even then it is her choice to do what she wants.
Ok, now this is my thoughts on cl, and testing for cl. I had my herd tested in Jan, all came out neg. It costed sooo much money to have a vet come out, draw blood and send it in. For two weeks after that vet came out and did it I thought about what I just did and did a lot of reading, and I will never test again. On most of my does, even if they did come out pos. I would not sell them. I think it can be managed, you can lance it, or inject 10% Buffered Formalin. I have yet to have a abscess on a animal, but I did go ahead and buy a bottle of the formalin just in case. Packhill wants to know how you can still sell your animals? I can sell my animals. 99% of my kids go straight to the sale, and I have 4 reg does that are out of here the 1st of June. I am honest and let her know that I do not test, and will not, and she is coming by in a week to draw blood and send it off, and when it clears will be picking them up, if it does not, they will be in the load to go to the sale as well. 
Also I want to share. I know a lady in Northern cali that has cl in some of her goats. She kept them since most were her pets. She has lost some over the years, but not one of them were from cl. One actually got so old, and from throwing quads for 8 years died of old age. And yes I agree with the other 2, I would rather any thing over johnes!! From what I gather from what I have read, that is the one that can spread easy, and that is the one that is a killer.
Now Im not saying that I am going to go and buy a goat knowing that it is 100% cl infested, but I dont think any one should be put down over it since, like karen said, there are worse things out there that can cause more problems.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

You are right merry once an animal is infected thwy carry the disease for life. They may have multiple.outbreaks or they may only have one. But if the animal is a valuable breeding.doe like i think this one is, you vaccinate the herd to stop them picking it ip. As i mentioned it is very effective. So then instead of culling her she continues to produce kids and controbute to the herd. Vaccination is the norm here, we get a combination vaccine that does cl as well as the clostridial diseases


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Well.. i am not going to be popular on this post. I can see that .. because the time and pain it causes toward the animal to treat it is is not worth it for me. I think if people have a stricter attitude about diseases, we may not have so many infected goats in our area. Seems to be rapidly picking up where I am from. I do not see how lancing open an abcess, draining it, putting in a painful medication is an easy solution. If you had to do it once- maybe but then.. this is contagious to humans to. Lets not down play this disease but I will say that most of these mouth jaw abcess things are not CL. If it is a suspicious in the area.. then a test is recommended. That is really the best way to know what to do next. After talking on the phone to people today who think their whole herd is effected.. the person was also told.. "no biggie" It is a biggie.. CL is getting out of hand. There are not many goats with the Johnes at this point UNLESS people also do not use caution with that too. Truly all does depend upon what you are using your goats for. 

You should not sell CL goats if you want to keep things in the goat world healthy.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

It probably is not CL anyway.. but if the person can eventually afford a test.. that is all I was recommending- just to help put her mind at ease. She is doing wisely her best to keep and eye on the goat for now which is what most of us would also do.. No one is asking her to put this animal down immediately. I sure wouldnt want to buy a suspicious animal tho.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I will put in my .02...

I would never buy a goat that has cl. Nor would I try to manage that disease as a novice. CL is contagious to humans, end of story. I have grandchildren and guests, too many people pet my goats for me to have to worry about that. No goat...pet or valuable breeder...is worth that chance.

So, I do have a question. For those of you who vaccinate. I was told that you have to send a "sample" of the exudate, so a specific vaccine can be created for you. So, Canadians/Australians are your vaccines made specifically for you? Or is it a generic formula that works for all? 

Seriously, you can't send a sample in yourself? We are fighting "nanny state" regulations like that here.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I was just wondering...those who vaccinate against CL. If you have a goat CL+ and end up vaccinating the rest of your herd...how do you know the vaccine is working in the other goats? Besides not seeing abscesses. Since they would come back CL+ with testing...is there any way of knowing they're not infected if vaccinated?

If the vaccine works...it might be something to look into...especially for those who show...could prevent a lot of heartache. :shrug:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I had read, and someone jump in if i am wrong, if you vac a cl pos goat they will get a abscess in the injection site.....if that is true, then that would save the cost of even testing


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Jessica84 said:


> I had read, and someone jump in if i am wrong, if you vac a cl pos goat they will get a abscess in the injection site.....if that is true, then that would save the cost of even testing


I too have heard this.

My intentIons with this doe, and our 8 other does is for breeding nd showing.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I'm afraid I sounded terse before. Sorry. I reread the first post and boy did I go off on a tangent. :doh: 

You are actually just seeing a scar from a previous "event", right? No active abscess? For me...I'd test to be sure if I was really worried about it. I could also understand a "wait and see" approach. If she gets another abscess, then test. 

Let's hope she just got a sticker.


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## Skyz84 (Jul 25, 2011)

packhillboers said:


> Well.. i am not going to be popular on this post. I can see that .. because the time and pain it causes toward the animal to treat it is is not worth it for me. I think if people have a stricter attitude about diseases, we may not have so many infected goats in our area. Seems to be rapidly picking up where I am from. I do not see how lancing open an abcess, draining it, putting in a painful medication is an easy solution. If you had to do it once- maybe but then.. this is contagious to humans to. Lets not down play this disease but I will say that most of these mouth jaw abcess things are not CL. If it is a suspicious in the area.. then a test is recommended. That is really the best way to know what to do next. After talking on the phone to people today who think their whole herd is effected.. the person was also told.. "no biggie" It is a biggie.. CL is getting out of hand. There are not many goats with the Johnes at this point UNLESS people also do not use caution with that too. Truly all does depend upon what you are using your goats for.
> 
> You should not sell CL goats if you want to keep things in the goat world healthy.


 :thumb: We are mainly raising goats for raw milk and pets. We have 3 children around under 8 years of age. Our pet goats go to families with children. No way I would keep a CL positive goat around here. Even if she was a beloved pet. However, I would not jump to the conclusion that every abscess is CL. I had a vaccine abscess that left a nasty scare. I'm 100% positive that is the spot I vaccinated her. I write down all vaccination sites. If I ever have an unknown abscess would have a vet drain it (away from the farm) and send it off for testing. We don't have a lot of goats, but it is not a risk I am willing to take.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Turns out that the second doe we bought, also had an active abscess. I expressed it, and only got 1/2 a teaspoon of very thick pus and blood. Sprayed it with iodine and quarentiend her. Going to take a look at the savanna doe and make sure hers is just a scar, and not an active abscess. If it is active, it's small. So hopefully easy to take care of.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

To answer the questions from Di and KW ... the vaccine we use in australia is generic, not.made specifically for each person. It is a combination vaccine, i use the 6 in 1 which does cheesy gland (cl), pulpy kidney (enterotoxaemia), tetanus, malignant oedema, black leg, and black disease but you get others as well that only do some of these. Basically the way we know that the vaccine is helping.in managing this disease is using it large flocks that are infected and seeing the number of active abcesses and the number of condemned carcasses drop significantly.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Finally got some pics of her! This is our beautiful Beth :lovey:

Sorry for the bad quality. This is her jaw abscess.









She's such a ham


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Well, you know, we vaccinate for all sort of things (here in the states, lol). Why not for CL? I know they come up positive at testing...so you don't want your babies to be destroyed because they test positive...but...we don't want CL either. I think someone here does vaccinate, not sure who.

Something else to think about.


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## GoatJoy (Aug 9, 2010)

keren said:


> Even if she does have CL she doesnt need to be culled. Its honestly not that big a deal. I would much rather deal with CL or CAE than johnes.


I just had to put a doe down because the CL was in her lungs and several other organs. It's also contagious to humans...I don't understand why people have such a lax attitude towards this disease...it can spread everywhere if the abcesses are viceral. It's my understanding the disease is in the blood. Just lancing it or controling it with a chemical injection doesn't make the problem go away...it can pop up anytime..or come back inside the lungs. At least that was my understanding and experience...is there something I'm missing?


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## GoatJoy (Aug 9, 2010)

After reading several other posts, I wanted to add, the doe I had with CL was an outstanding doe. She was very well bred with great bloodlines. When I bought her she had scars all over her but the person I bought her from was dishonest with me about the CL. She informed me she vaccinated her for CL which was why she came up positive with the disease on a blood test. However my goat (who has done VERY well in the show ring in the past and not easily prone to sickness) started getting lumps on her lymph node areas. She had three knots when we put her down. We lanced the pus and sent it in. She was examined post mordem and she had CL absesses in her stomach, lungs, and various other organs. The pus test came back positive. I know there are many who have the opinion that this disease isn't so bad compared to others...but I've dealt with CL and I've dealt with CAE. CL is much more serious than people realize and in my opinion...SHOULD be a concern when purchasing goats. 

Watch your goat..if she comes up with a lump, seperate her and lance the abcess. (be careful to not let the stuff fall to the ground or touch anything) send the pus off to a lab and have it tested..that's the only way to have a good answer about whether your goat has CL. You don't want this disease spreading to the rest of your herd, so if she comes back positive and you decide to keep her...keep her seperate! My decision to put my goat down came about only because her quality of life was nil. She was only 7 years old and I had no idea the CL was in her organs. She had been coughing a lot, but I thought it was due to a chronic cold we were treating her for. She was my best goat...beautiful and special in her personality. It ripped my heart into to have lost her. You need to know for sure if this is what you're dealing with. A scar like that would be enough to make me want to test because it looks very similar to the scars Abby had. I hate to be so grim, but this ordeal was recent and I'm still in pain over it all and I don't want anyone else to go through it...
Sorry if I ofended anyone...I just don't want the seriousness of this disease to be overlooked. :grouphug:


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