# goats dieing/kidding complications HELP



## 312InchMagnum (Feb 10, 2013)

first off i am new to raising goats..we had 5 pygmies...2 males/3 females...all different bloodlines...well ive lost 2 does and at least 2 kids in the last month...they are over a year old...

i know the first mistake i made was not keeping the bucks/does separated early...i was advised that it didnt matter...well known breeder i got a couple from said she has never kept her separated and never had isses...well,now i know...i should have kept them separated so i could have at least known how far along they were

here is the story...had a smaller doe i knew was pregnant...knew she was close, but not sure how close...kept a close eye on her...she is really small, so i had been worried about her...went to check on them one evening and 2 kids were dead...looked like they still had quite a bit of mucous on them....i assume they died during birth...she was ok...i could tell she was pretty run down, but she was eating good...1 week later found the doe dead...i assume she maybe had some internal damage...

next...decently bigger doe i knew was pregnant, noticed her "private" was larger than i remember about a month ago, so i figured she was close...was checking on her like crazy every day...never anything...well i had a pretty busy day today, wife is out of town, just went to check on them when i got home and found her dead laying down...turned her over and saw the "white stringy" mucous at her private...looks like she didnt even get to pass the mucous plug and died...i had high hopes for her as she was much bigger than the other that died...not even sure there would have been much i could have done if i was there as she didnt even get far along in labor...

im pretty dang discouraged at this point...i know pygmies commonly have birthing problems due to their size....any advice/recommendations?...i am now down to one small doe and 2 beautiful bucks...


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Oh jeez! Kidding out goats is difficult enough without an idiot breeder giving you bad advice. I am so sorry! At this point all I can say is to try to not beat yourself up - you're new and you trusted someone that didn't have a clue. I'm very sorry you learned it this way, but you now know separating bucklings and doelings is very important. Unfortunately, I have no experience with Pygmy's so I will bow out now. There are a number of good people that do raise Pygmy's on here and I'm sure they will be able to help.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh golly this is a tough one. Sorry you have had to deal with so much loss in such a short period of time.
Several things could have happened to cause this aside from running bucks & does together. Hind sight on that one.
What kind of hay & grain & amounts?


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## 312InchMagnum (Feb 10, 2013)

coastal hay, they also are let out to graze from time to time...usually a few big cups of moores sheep and goat daily...


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## Abra (Aug 11, 2012)

I hope you have better luck with your last girl. I can completely understand how this can feel. So unnerving and frustrating, hopeless, and it makes you feel like a failure, like you didn't do enough... Like it's YOUR fault...! But it's NOT!
When we are new, (and we have ALL been there!) we listen to those we believe know better. Those we believe we can TRUST... Those with experience. Those who should know better... Those who should give good, sound advice... Those we BOUGHT the goats FROM in the FIRST place..!!!
We never expect to hear BAD advice from those who 'just want to get rid' of something that we are buying, something we (personally) KNOW will be special to US. THEY, have NO concerns, fears, or reservations about how THEIR failure in advice will affect US when our hearts are broken!

I am SOOOOOOO So so sorry for your losses! Don't be discouraged though.
It might be late now, but cut off grain.
Who knows what they were bred with! (Boer? Nubian? Any other large breed?)

First, I would say, separate the bucks. Immediately.
Second, Keep the doe as comfortable and warm as possible without overheating her, have a Vet on stand-by, and keep an eye on her constantly.
Have water and hay available at all times.
Make sure all vitamin and mineral needs have been met!

Do you have anyone that is goat-knowledgeable that you can call?
If not, I would call a Vet at the first sign of trouble.!!!

I wish you, and your last remaining doe all the very best of luck!
(((((((((HUGS TO YOU BOTH))))))))))


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## 312InchMagnum (Feb 10, 2013)

when should you cut off grain and why?


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## Abra (Aug 11, 2012)

As far as I know, cutting off grain during the end of pregnancy helps to prevent over-sized kids. (kids are smaller when born, therefore, easier to kid)
Also, it helps to prevent a 'congested udder". Something I, personally, am familiar with!


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## Abra (Aug 11, 2012)

PS: My heart really breaks for you. I REALLY, REALLY hope your last girl has her little ones safely! Really REALLY!!!
Since you got them after they were bred, you can never be 100% sure WHAT They were bred with.... Larger breed buck bred to a smaller breed doe can mean trouble. (NOT always, but sometimes it can!)
I hate to see anyone be discouraged from goats because of some "morons" mistakes and advice!
(SORRY ALL FOR THE BAD LANGUAGE!)
8 years ago, I ould not imagine having goats (even 7 years ago, they were Eeew!), and now, I could never see my life without my goat girls in it!  They are my Sunshine on a cloudy day! 
They always make me smile when I feel sad.  They never fail. 

I am new to goats myself. I have 3 First time Fresheners due soon. Their first time having kids, and MY first time tending to First Timers!!!
I am FREAKING OUT a bit. Really, and I mean, REALLY REALLY scared. But I am being hopeful...
AND....
I have a GREAT mentor...  SUZY! (Yes! I said your name! Sue me! LOL)
Suzy is AMAZING. She is like an Angel in my life. 
When I freak, need help, and my head is falling off, she's there to screw my head back on straight, slap me, and throw some ice-cold water on me to get me sane again!!!


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Yes, cut off the grain to prevent the kid/kids growing any bigger. UNLESS your girl is super skinny then she needs that extra energy. Since these girls have been running with the buck you are going to have no clear idea when they are going to kid...that makes it even tougher. Do you have a vet? If not...FIND ONE. Now, before you really need them. Get your last doe into the vet for a full fecal, a vaginal swab to check for chlamydia (a google search says it's by blood test?) or anything else, a sono to see just how big her kid/kids are. I'm guessing it's too late to post the one that just died? How long ago are we talking? If it was just yesterday, call a vet out to post it...That will tell you a lot.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

How old were these does when the we're bred?

I'm sorry your experience has been so tough.


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## 312InchMagnum (Feb 10, 2013)

They were probably a little less than a year old when bred. Problem is the only vet that really deals with goats around here is over an hour away. And he is questionable to begin with. Kind of a quack.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Unfortunately that is one of your problems. They were bred too young. I really am sorry that breeder was so bad. I hope you stay in goats and keep trying. It isn't normally this bad.


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## alicejane (Jan 15, 2014)

My question is what kind of worm med & coci med has been given? What does her bowel look like. I am thinking that worms or coci might be a problem. Does she have baking soda available. How about minerals.


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## 312InchMagnum (Feb 10, 2013)

I'm worried this last doe won't make it. She is TINY! I have given them safeguard goat dewormer before but it's been a while. A local "goater" told me not to worry about worming them until I see problems like diarrhea. He said you don't wanna regularly worm them because they will get immune to it. All of their stool has been normal hard pellets for as long as I can remember. Now the doe that just died did look like she had a little diarrhea. I was actually going to check on her last night to see so I could head to the feed store this morning and get advice on what to give her if she had diarrhea. Never given anything for cocci.


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## 312InchMagnum (Feb 10, 2013)

No baking soda or minerals available. This is news to me. School me on this please


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

In short, loose minerals with high copper content is going to help with muscle tone & ability to kid more easily as well as help fight parasites.
It's all a delicate balance including worming & not on a regular basis as your friend has said.
Eating off the ground contributes to parasite more than anything.
When a goat is highly stressed, as in kidding or moving to new location whatever parasites are in there are going to party, Under normal conditions they aren't so evident.


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## alicejane (Jan 15, 2014)

House hold baking soda like for baking is something goats use to help their stomach. Goat Minerals are minerals goats need that our area is lacking in. I have
Always used medicated noble goat feed for the coci. I been reading others are using direct oral meds for that. I am thinking you need a stronger worm med also. Maybe others can advise what to use.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You really don't have to keep baking soda out full time. I never do. But a good loose goat mineral is a must.

Having fecals done and checking inner eyelids are also important to do for parasite control.

I would suggest just start reading through threads on here for more information.


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## alicejane (Jan 15, 2014)

I started out raising pigmy goats. They are so much fun. I helped deliver all their babies. I had the baby monitors so could hear them when they were kiding. Back to your goat. I would use another worm med
that you can use on pregnant goat. Just because she is little doen't make her sick. Does she have her milk yet? The way the others died I am thinking its worms. 
I see no other reason for the problems. Your friends didn't seem to mention minerals or bose? Leads me back to worms. Just my thoughts keep us up to date


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Having the buck run with the does is not the problem. Up till this last breeding that's what I have always done and run my cattle the same way. It isn't bad advise its just simply a different management. I agree that the does were to young to breed and the seller knowing you were new should have brought that to your attention. 
As for what is going on I really don't know since the second sounds like she didn't even go into active labor. Are you vaccinating them??? The only thing that I can think might of happened is maybe with the stress of kidding/ and going into labor on the second is their immune system wasn't as strong and they got sick.....I really don't know that's a guess. I do agree that they do need loose minerals especially with high copper. The copper will help all around with kidding. It totally opened my eyes when I lost a doe to a torn uterus...like that thing was in bad shape the vet had a hard time even sewing it back together because it kept on ripping. He told me it was from lack of copper.
For you poor last girl im guessing you moved the buck out???? If so I would put her next to him where they can see each other if you don't have any other friends for her that way it keeps the stress down. K am a big time believer on cutting the grain down the last month and if she's small I would only be giving a small handful and that's it. Since we don't really know what went wrong with the other two and for all we know its 2 different things and you just had some bad luck....worm this one once she kids. Every doe of mine no matter what gets wormed right after kidding. Stress let's those worms take over and take over fast and kidding is stressful.....I learned that the hard way 
I know its hard to do but don't beat your self up I really don't see how you guys did anything wrong. Even the ones that have been raising goats for years and totally goat smart still loose some  its heart breaking and I'm sorry your going threw this but all we can do is try and learn from it. It gets better but even then that stupid bad luck still comes around


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The second doe was probably a dystocia. if the back of the kid was presenting, they don't feel the need to push. With having a stream of goo, she was in labor but my bet would be on malpresentation and she probably needed assistance. With being so new, you wouldn't have known to go in. It just really makes me mad that you were left hanging with no real help.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Your right he was left with no help  and my advise is read....read read read. I can not tell you how much I have learned just simply reading other peoples threads. I still do it and learn something new. If I get confused or have no idea what they are talking about in a thread I Google it. people on here are so willing to help as well so if you have a question on anything make a thread.....and there is lots of people so it usually gets answered really fast. 
But what I would start doing now with this one girl is start looking up kid positions and signs of when things are wrong. I really do pray all turns out well for you on this one and kidding usually isn't this bad....again I'm sorry your going threw this


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

oh man..Im so sorry...what a way to start your goat adventure..good advice given here...read read read is the best way to learn and ask any and all questions here...this is a great group of folks who love and care for goats!...years and years of experiance here : ) 

I would get you last little gal to the vet..put him on alert then watch for her to come into labor, you might plan for a c section. Look for a vet with experience...If a vet pulls or c sections he should send pain meds home...Banamine is a good choice...and antibiotics....


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

And it would definitely help if you had an experienced goat or sheep person with you during the kidding process. They usually know what the problem is and how to fix it(like repositioning a kid), will give you tips and pointers, and will reassure you during this stressful time.
And I found that watching you-tube videos helps a ton. It prepares you for what'll you see, the stages of labor, and sometimes how to aid in a difficult birth. I think it's easier when you can actually see what happens, and not just read about it.

As for minerals, they need something ASAP, goat or cattle minerals will do just not sheep. If your does are caught up on their nutrition they're more likely to have an easy kidding.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Give us detailed information on what you are feeding them. Including all supplements, grains, vaccines and boosters. Read outs on any mineral mixes that are not name brand would also help.

Selenium deficiency is a very common cause for problem births and retained placentas. Which could happen with a difficult birth. If they dont contact and there is little to none dangling, they cant pass it. Its only a matter of days before it turns rancid and a nasty infection starts.

The second one may of also had dead babies and they never got into position, thus couldnt pass em. Dead babies dont usually line up in the birth canal correctly. So lets us hear what they are ingesting (what kinda brows even) and we can go from there.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

If you are feeding a sheep and goat feed, you are not giving your goats copper. They need copper. Get them started on a loose mineral, as others have suggested, and see if you can find a good goat only feed, nothing for sheep. If you can't find that, you can feed a horse or cattle feed.

Are there any good goat people ianywhere in your area that can help mentor you?


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## alicejane (Jan 15, 2014)

How is the doe doing? Please let us know how its going? Thanks


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## Abra (Aug 11, 2012)

I would like to know how it's going also.
We are all keeping our fingers crossed for you guys!


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

Any updates? Hope all is well!


Irish Roots Acres 
Nigerian Dwarf Goats


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## 312InchMagnum (Feb 10, 2013)

sorry everyone i have been busy with family and work...last doe is doing ok...she is the smallest of them all...im not for sure she is pregnant, but im assuming she is since the other 2 were...they probably all got pregnant around 8 months old...i have taken her off grain and she only gets coastal hay now...she will be separated from the bucks this weekend as i have time to complete some fencing...i will get her a mineral lick asap...any particular one?

what else?...thanks so much so far!


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## 312InchMagnum (Feb 10, 2013)

thinking about everything and how the does presented when dead...i really think the 1st one died from some internal bleeding or damage to giving birth...i think her 2 kids died during the birth because of the amount of mucous still on them...

the 2nd doe that died i feel like the kid was probably really malpositioned and caused the doe's death...

maybe some sort of parasite did or didnt contribute, but i think it was mainly from what i mentioned...just the way everything presented makes me think this...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Get a good loose mineral. Manna Pro Goat Mineral is a good one.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

It could have been the way you mentioned...its so had to tell...Im so sorry, I can tell its eating you up...

I agree, loose minerals are better, blocks have too much salt and they are heard for goats to eat..I put out salt on the side...

I sure hope your little gal does ok..being there for her can make a huge difference.I would get a vet involved or Call around and find a goat person with experience in birthing, better if they know pygmy ...

Best wishes


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