# My Luna was killed. How/what about dog owners?



## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

My little Luna was killed by the neighbors dogs. It was horrible. She was at my sisters house & just moved into a new place. The pen is made out of Livestock panels with the smaller holes at the bottom. They are the 16ft panels. The dogs scared all the goats into a corner & grabbed her leg threw the fence & ripped it off. Another goat has bites on her one is fairly large. We are flushing it. Have her on Pen.,tetanus, bovi sera & pain meds. They called the livestock inspector & she came out & did a report, pics etc.. Then she went & talked to another neighbor that is having issues with the dogs. Then the inspector went to the dog owners house & told them that her dogs attacked 2 goats & one was killed so on. The dog owner claimed it was not her dogs them confessed that only one dog was out but it was home before 6. My brother~n~law chased the dogs off at 5 a.m. he saw them by the goats pen but did not realize they had killed her. They ran off towards that neighbors that owns the dogs. Our other one who has problems with them has called the Sheriff who did nothing but took the dogs home. I was told the inspector was turning over the case to 2 other inspectors. She is fairly new. 
Should I talk to the dog owners? 
How much should we claim in damages?
Here is a baby picture off her & her FF udder unclipped. She kidded a single doe but she was bottle raised.
Her bloodlines.
SS: OLD MOUNTAIN FARM ZIPCODE
Sire: Blunderosa ZC Bamboo Van Gough 
SD: Rail N Ranch FU Harmony 
DS:Old Mountain Farm Zipcode
Dam: Blunderosa ZC Bamboo Blossom 
DD:Agape Oaks Amazing Grace 2*M 1*D VG AR2008

I had planned on showing her next year in milk.
The injured goat Shania won a JR Grand in 2012.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would be making a police report. Even if you have to force them to do the report. I'd also have a gun ready and shoot the dogs if found on the property again. I'm sorry you lost your goat that way.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes this needs to be an official report. So sorry this happened.


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## GoatieGranny (Jul 26, 2013)

This is terribly heartbreaking! I agree with everything Karen and Nancy said. 

I would hold off talking to the dog owners for now. 

How much did you pay for her? And how much would it cost to replace her and the milk you are getting from her? I would start there to count your losses.


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

When counting losses you need to count the loss of the doe, how much it would be to replace her and the milk lost, you also need to count the cost of the injured goat as far as all medical care and supplies needed and the time to tend to the injuries. You can also deam a certain amount towards trama. 

I would take them court flat out. I would ask for the dogs to be deamed viscous and retained at all cost. If I seen the dogs back out my property it would be lights out. 

My neighbors have my permission that if my dogs ever get loose and harm or traumatize any animal that they can shoot them. I love my dogs to death but I will not tolerate them being harmful to another animal.

I wouldn't talk to the owner. I would just go threw the legal system. Or get a lawyer and have a lawyer contact them.


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## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

We did the report with the livestock inspector. The Sherriff are very busy & we only have one for over a 500miles. They usually do not do much but tell you to shoot them. My family have the guns ready to shoot them now.


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## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

I bought her Dam bred & a few others. It was a package deal. I know her Dam was bought before me for $450. The lady I bought them sold out & had to move into town for her children's school.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im very sorry for our loss...she was beautiful. figuring out what her value is not the same as what the court will see as replacement value...they will want to know how much it will cost to replace her...not what you lost from a life time of milk ,babies and so forth..a friend is going through this right now. Although we did make a letter listing the value LOST of her life time in milk babies and all so the court can see her final replace value that we deemed high was fair. Plus include damages and vet bills ect...and yes..keep the gun handy...the dog found a play yard and he will be back..



> bought her Dam bred & a few others. It was a package deal. I know her Dam was bought before me for $450


I wouldnt ask for any less then $500 plus the damage to theother goat and vet medicaton ect...


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

Not trying to be nosy but do you mind if I ask where you live that you only have one sheriff for 500 miles? I would still call the sheriff's office and report it over the phone at the very least. I would document everything that has happened and everything that happens from now on, I would get myself a notebook and keep it all in there and document times/dates/and description of events. Including the call to the police. I would not talk to the dogs owners at this point. I would shoot the dogs if they come back. Find out from this livestock inspector what kind of legal recourse you have.
What kind of jurisdiction and authority do these livestock inspectors have? Can they destroy the dogs or have them quarantined in a pound? Do they have any authority really at all?


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## Naunnie (Jul 4, 2014)

I'm so sorry this has happened to y'all. I agree.... this is not to be tolerated. If something is not done....the dogs will be back. Be prepared! I totally understand what nannysrus means. I love my dogs but will not tolerate this kind of behavior. I have "put down" a few of my own....myself for attacking another critter on my turf! I sure as heck would not tolerate someone elses dogs causing harm!!! Oh! this makes me angry! The owners have already denied it was their dogs, so be prepared for a fight. Hopefully.... it will be resolved without fighting, but I would be extra diligent keeping my goats safe. I have heard too may times... when some folks are called out for being negligent/irresponsible, about their dogs.....they retaliate. Stay on the inspectors and the police. Do not let them make light of this. Remember ...you pay their salaries! I suggest you write everything down....time, dates, names, even take pictures! Document everything and keep copies.

I sure hope the injured has a full recovery. You are in my thoughts.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm so very sorry  but as someone who has been in your shoes don't get your heart set on anything unless they admit it was their dogs. The only way you have 100% prof is if the dog was shot and had tags on it. That's what we were told  I would still do as the others have suggested and I hope your outcome is better then ours were. Find out what exactly the rules are for dogs bothering livestock. Here we can only shoot if it's attacking the animal but I know in some states if the dog is on your place and cause the livestock to simply lift their head from grazing you can shoot. But either way I would have some guns ready because the owner is going to keep a tight leash on the dogs right now but when the dogs can they will be back. 


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## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

Thank You everyone for everything. We can shoot dogs on our property & I have been told be the Sherriff to do so in the past. Our neighbor that also has issues with the dogs lend my sister a baby monitor. We are trying to take pictures of the dogs at the owners house so when we do kill them we will have pictures. 
It can take a couple hours for them to show up. I have done reports over the phone. That is a call back maybe the same day. 
Maybe the one will show up at work tomorrow to eat. He works Thursday on. 
We use to have more in our area but some budget bs it's only a couple times a weekend we have more than one working a shift. They take care of a few small towns west of Phoenix. If we are lucky it's a half hour. (My son last month was chased in his car by a FAKE cop last month & it took almost 45 min on the phone with 911 & 3 police dept. to show up & he got away.)


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## Cactus_Acres (Sep 24, 2013)

I would go down to their offices, in person, and insist on a report being filed. Is it a sheriff, or a sheriff's deputy, that handles that much turf? Not to be a snot or anything, but up here, the sheriff's department oversees the whole county outside of Cheyenne, and they are covering a heck of a lot more mileage than 500sq miles. They do have several deputies, but it is still a lot of turf and they will handle all sorts of stuff. They have helped remove unwanted animals from my property when the previous back fence neighbors had a pygmy goat and a Shetland pony mare keep on going under the TWO STRANDS of barb wire fence (mare was in heat and someone on the other side of our property from her pasture has a stud horse).

BTW, have you called Animal Control? I know you mentioned an inspector type person, but out here, the ones to handle vicious animals is animal control. A couple months ago, our neighbor's pitbull (they since moved) went after a well-behaved Husky that was on a leash walking down the road. We are on ten acres plots out here, and their house is well and off the road. The pit went after the husky (they were walking the husky in the middle of the road, not on the grass or near the edge). The woman got knocked down since there was a leash attached to said husky. The man with the husky was carrying his concealed weapon at the time, and the only thing that stopped him from shooting the pit was the owner getting in his way. This all happened at the end of our driveway, which is near the property line. My seven year old saw this unfold. 

I called animal control a couple hours later, after we got back from church. I had enough time to realize my child was about to be dog-sitting my parents' MUCH smaller dog the next week, and didn't want either of them injured. Based on what we saw happen, and the testimony of the husky's owner, the owners were given a court summons regarding their dog's vicious behavior. Animal control officers are better versed in going after the owners of menace dogs.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Crystal said:


> Thank You everyone for everything. We can shoot dogs on our property & I have been told be the Sherriff to do so in the past. Our neighbor that also has issues with the dogs lend my sister a baby monitor. We are trying to take pictures of the dogs at the owners house so when we do kill them we will have pictures.
> It can take a couple hours for them to show up. I have done reports over the phone. That is a call back maybe the same day.
> Maybe the one will show up at work tomorrow to eat. He works Thursday on.
> We use to have more in our area but some budget bs it's only a couple times a weekend we have more than one working a shift. They take care of a few small towns west of Phoenix. If we are lucky it's a half hour. (My son last month was chased in his car by a FAKE cop last month & it took almost 45 min on the phone with 911 & 3 police dept. to show up & he got away.)


Śo sorry about your goats. What a horrible thing to happen.
A baby monitor is good. Could you get a hold of a wildlife camera as well? Then if the dogs did come back, you would have a record and the monitor would hopefully alert you in time to chase them off. Could you get something with smaller openings, maybe chicken wire, to run around the perimeter of the pen to keep the dogs from reaching in? just wire it onto the panels. Someone else might have a better idea....I agree with whoever it was, that the dogs will be back. The owners may be extra vigilant for a while, but it doesn't sound like they will keep it up for long.
Sorry for your loss.


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## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

If you get the right dog pound person to show up. My kids babysitter has called them twice because her neighbors pit keeps coming in her yard. They returned him twice to the owners. I went to drop off my children & the dog was attacking the 2 pot belly pigs. We have a big dog issue in our town plus all the dogs that get left out here. 
I will call tomorrow when I get off work & hope to get someone useful. 
I will see about setting up a camera over their. We both raise goats but I have LGD's. I have several coyote packs by my house. My dogs keep them away. 
We did put a wire fence around them. My sister is also putting chain link around her Mini horses pen. We are going to put up something else this week also. The one neighbor says the dogs jump out of the fenced yard. Also they have owned sheep & chickens. They would come home to find them all dead but can not believe their dogs did it.
Like I said the Sherriff have just returned the dogs home after killing my friends chickens. Now I found out they have killed the dog owners sheep to. All the dogs need to be shot.


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## Cactus_Acres (Sep 24, 2013)

Or they won't care. In our case, the one that kept on letting out the dog next door sans tether or leash was their off-kilter teenage daughter. After that incident, I was out installing field fencing along our shared fenceline. The teen got home from summer school (no one else was home), and while we were almost as close to their house as the fenceline would allow, she let the dog out off the leash. I went up to the house and got my husband's handgun (thank God for open carry laws in this state) and wore it on my hip from that point out. I didn't, and never would, trust that dog at all. The teen daughter was also not quite right, and I wouldn't trust her judgement at all when it comes to handling that animal. She was home by herself that day, screaming in her house while laying in the window and watching me put up fencing (at least 100 feet away if not more). One of my kids kept coming out to help me with the fencing, and I had to be sure he was protected. Being afraid on your own property is baloney when it comes to someone recklessly letting out their animals.


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## Cactus_Acres (Sep 24, 2013)

Yeah, be the biggest, crankiest thorn in their sides, until someone does something punitive to them. I am admittedly not a dog person, so I don't see the attachment to something once it has been destructive.


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## Naunnie (Jul 4, 2014)

"We both raise goats but I have LGD's. I have several coyote packs by my house. My dogs keep them away."

How are your dogs? Did they try to intervene? If so, that's one more thing to document IMO.


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## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

We will end up getting the dogs taken care of I've way or the other. We also have several neighbors on watch with guns. 
I feel so bad for what my poor Luna went threw. She was my sweet baby. I have her little girl & her name is Sunshine. She is cream(yellow) with a moonspot on her butt. I am thankful they did not kill my sisters kids goats. Luna was always my talker.


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## OakHollowRanch (Jun 6, 2013)

I can't even imagine... I'm so sorry. This is always a fear of mine with our new neighbor having seven large dogs. Several are wolf hybrids, huskies, and German shepherds and their owner admitted she was afraid they would go after our goats if they escaped their kennel. A friend of mine went through a similar attack and spent months going through court battles. The man who owned the dogs would visit her house with his gun multiple times a month while she was home alone and would not leave. It was a real nightmare for them, but they did eventually get it settled and recently moved to a new house. I hope you can get something good out of this tragic accident and I agree about keeping guns handy. I love dogs, but it just horrifies me that something like that could happen to an innocent goat.


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## Deschutes Dawn (Sep 24, 2013)

I am so sorry to hear about your loss-I would be devastated if that happened on my place. 

I have also had dog problems here in central Oregon but our county is very good at defending livestock owners animals. My packers were attacked by some dogs from up the road from us. I had been out riding and had the dogs try to harass the horses. I have my horses trained to face an attacking dog and I go directly at them as fast as there is room to go. These dogs tucked tail and led me directly to their home. Called animal control and they were there as soon as they could get there. They took pictures and a report then went to see the owners. The husband was furious with his wife for releasing the dogs from their kennel while he was at work. It cost them $850 per dog for dog at large and they lost the dogs because of attacking livestock. The deputy dropped by afterwards and told us he thought he was going to be taking them in for a domestic altercation! My packer boys took a long time to get over the emotional trauma from the attack but eventually settled down.

Just tonight on our local news a neighboring county didn't even quarantine a dog that attacked a child and injured her! Wouldn't surprise me if that dog suddenly disappeared. Thank goodness I don't live in that county.


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## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

I do love dogs & even use to rescue all types of animals. I also know if the owner does not keep the dogs up they can be a threat. It was 3 German shepherds that killed my goat. I have a dog I keep on a run because he will run away. He will either dig out or eat a hole in the fence. I hate doing this but I will not let him run. I would put him down if he was aggressive. 
Its not even the money for my goat its trying to get the dog owners to wake up & see how much damage they can do. I love my dogs & would hate to have them killed BUT if they attack kill them.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I am so sorry, Crystal. :blue:


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Crystal said:


> Its not even the money for my goat its trying to get the dog owners to wake up & see how much damage they can do.


That will never happen. If they were responsible dog owners, the dogs would never have been allowed to run in the first place.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

MsScamp said:


> That will never happen. If they were responsible dog owners, the dogs would never have been allowed to run in the first place.


Agreed. We have 2 neighbors that we are always shooting their dogs and they still don't learn. They just get new dogs and still turn them out. At least the one went with little rat dogs this time and so far hasn't had a issue with attacks but probably only because they don't have the size to do anything but I still see them running free just not on our place yet

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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

So sorry you went through this! Did your lgd's do any damage to the dogs?


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## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

The attack was at my sisters house she does not have LGD she is going to now.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good advice given.


I am so sorry for your loss.


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## moonspinner (Oct 5, 2007)

I can empathize. Two years ago my neighbor's dog killed my ND kid. But fortunately it happened when I was outside so I immediately took the dead kid over to the owner. He was great and paid me instantly and put a shock collar on the dog. But I've dealt with neighbors like your sisters too. You just cannot get through to these people.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Jessica84 said:


> Agreed. We have 2 neighbors that we are always shooting their dogs and they still don't learn. They just get new dogs and still turn them out. At least the one went with little rat dogs this time and so far hasn't had a issue with attacks but probably only because they don't have the size to do anything but I still see them running free just not on our place yet
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


Yeah, I hear you. 2 of our neighbors allow their dogs to run. I caught the 1 neighbors dogs running my goats from outside the fence. He showed up shortly after that to collect them and I flat out told him that I had talked to the Sheriff and, if I EVER saw his dogs on my place again, I would shoot them on the spot. After he dealt with me, he then ran into Dad on the way out. We've never seen his dogs since. The other neighbor's dogs weren't aggressive, but we saw them in the bar pit after being hit by a car. They just kept getting new dogs. Thankfully, they moved. I really hate to see a dog(or any other animal, for that matter) pay for their owner's stupidity.


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## kccountryfarm (Apr 2, 2014)

I'm so sorry that this happened. Two years ago in February I had a dog come over to my property and kill one goat and severely injure the other. Unfortunately I didn't see what dog did the attack. I didn't make a report at that time. The other goat did survive. I purchased 3 more wethers. The following in October, the dog returned and I found him in the pen killing the goats. It was awful!!! My husband put the dog down. It turned out to be a neighbor's dog. I called animal control and they came out and made a report. I was told that goats are considered livestock and that we are entitled to double the market price. If you bought them at a package deal you consider what the goat would have cost you if you bought it alone. Then double it. The owners of the dog have to pay this as well as any vet costs. Do not let it go. This dog will return. Once a dog kills an animal they have the taste of blood. They will kill again. If the owners don't take responsibility you may need to seek legal counsel. Small claims is easy to do. The law is on your side. Good luck to you and hugs as well. It is so awful to lose animals this way.


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## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

Thank you everyone. I did not get to call today. Our livestock inspector is driving by the dog owners house trying to find the dogs out so she can do more for us. A few times a day.
My mother~n~law (ex]was taken off life support & they moved her to hospice tonight. My 3 kids visited her today & my one from Ca is driving right now. I'm not giving up on the bad dogs just have to wait a few days. I've lost to many family & friends this year already.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Family first, then farm life. I hope things get better for you!


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

I'm so sorry about your mother in law and losing the little goat. Too much all at once for sure.


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## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

I am sorry this happened to you. I recently moved with my boyfriend and I told him it's fair game, anything I see up by my goats will be taken care of. So far we are ok.. Knock on wood, but I know there are fox around (took my cat) and come spring when I have kids I will not tolerate it. Hopefully you get justice!


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## ndwarf (Dec 23, 2013)

So sorry, hope that you can get fair compensation for your loss.


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## cajunmom (Apr 29, 2013)

I'm sorry you had to go through that. We had a dog trying to get in our goat pens with us standing right there. Now I get nervous letting them out without me sitting out there watching. I would definitely push for monetary compensation.


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## robin4 (Oct 12, 2013)

So sorry this happened to you......l have to ask though, What state do you live in????? I've read about having guns ready, shooting dogs, no sheriff for 500 miles. Sounds like the wild west.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

In answer how someone could care about a dog who kills another animal- it is a dogs nature to kill. They are an animal. I would love my dogs no matter what they did. Would you turn your back on your son or daughter if they killed someone? Especially if they had mental health issues and could not help themselves? (dogs do not understand, they are predators, goats are prey) To some people, dogs are as much family as their human family. My dogs would rip apart my goats if given half a chance. I do not give them that chance. My goats are behind livestock panels with electric fence, as are my dogs. I got rid of my Nigerian Dwarfs when I got my Malamutes because I could not keep the tiny kids contained safely. If they did kill one of my goats, I would not kill my dogs. The dogs are family, the goats are livestock.

I did get 2 LGD after problems with the neighbors, they do a great job keeping stray dogs and human predators away from my property.

DO NOT CONFRONT the dogs owners. That could go very bad for you. 

Keep calling the sheriffs office. If they do not do anything-contact the County Commissioners who are their direct bosses. The Sheriff is an elected position. If nothing is done then, contact your state Attorney Generals Office, they police the police. Go to the newspapers if all else fails. 

Get a lawyer. Did you get pictures of the victims, before and after the attack? Keep a log of things in a binder type of notebook where the pages can not be removed without it being obvious? Start the log with the attack,,,,,date, time, what you saw, what you found, witnesses, etc. ALL FACTS, no guesses or speculation. Log every time you called the police, you spoke to someone, saw something.....everything even though you might think it is something not important and the outcome. Make sure the list is in order of date and time. List names of people. This sort of thing can generally be used in most courts.

The camera is a great idea, because unless the owners put up an escape proof fence, the dog(s) will be back.


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## robin4 (Oct 12, 2013)

We live out in the country, but still have neighbors maybe 500 feet up the road, and one of my neighbors call animal control on another neighbor for letting their dogs into their yard. They made them put up a chain fence all around the back yard and are no longer allowed to let their dogs out.

So the neighbor who called animal control has dogs that roam all over, even in my yard, they didn't have to do anything and their dogs are a bigger pain than the other neighbor by far... And they are big. They even pooped on my parents front steps.

I have to shovel their dogs poop out of my yard all the time. Usually I find the poop the hard way.

I try to get alone with my neighbors so I don't say anything. But I'm tired of their dogs using my yard as a dumping ground. And wouldn't hesitate to shoot the dogs if they were aggressive to my farm animals. But since pooping in my yard is the only issue I have with them, I though about shooting them with a paintball gun. It would sting, but not leave any kind of wound.

I do think if your going to have dogs, you need to keep them on your own property.

When I was little we had a collie and it was killing the neighbors chickens. My dad did not hesitate to shoot the dog. And my dad is a dog lover. That was probably 40 years ago.

Didn't mean to go on......I just think if you truly love you dogs, you will keep them home and out of people hair.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

lottsagoats1 said:


> In answer how someone could care about a dog who kills another animal- it is a dogs nature to kill. They are an animal. I would love my dogs no matter what they did. Would you turn your back on your son or daughter if they killed someone? Especially if they had mental health issues and could not help themselves? (dogs do not understand, they are predators, goats are prey) To some people, dogs are as much family as their human family. My dogs would rip apart my goats if given half a chance. I do not give them that chance.


I'm sorry nope not agreeing with you. Yes it is a dogs natural thing to hunt but as a OWNER they should correct that dog. It's not like they are in the wild and starving and no hope of us people training them. 
You ask about what if it was a child. What parent would see the issue and just ignore it and say well that just them sorry parents of the victim my kid killed that's just them. No you would see the signs and get them help the same as a owner should see the signs of a aggressive dog and train them. Training doesn't help then a very well pen for them (like you have done) the same as the child would be placed in a mental ward. I love my dogs very much but when it comes down to it are them by 'family' nope. They are my dogs and I surely wouldn't have my kids to without for a dog or any other animal. I do not and will not put my dogs over my livestock since my livestock is what pays the bills around here. I surely would say oops sorry kids no dinner this month because Lilly just killed a $100 goat or $1,000
Calf. Nope Lilly would be put down. Not even go to the pound since I even if she had to go I have enough respect for her not to be scared out of her mind before she was put down. 
I don't get all happy and warm inside when I have to shoot someone's dogs but what is mine comes first in my books then a dog that takes money away from me and kills something innocent.

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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I am so sorry that you are having to deal with these dogs at the same time as you mother in law's health. God be with her and you all as she passes on the the better side.

I know you are very busy right now but if there is anyway you could get like chicken wire to put on the outside of the panels to keep that dog or others from being able to get their head on the fence again. it would be somwthing until you have time to really deal with all that. I know it might be a bit to much right now to do. Wish i was closer I would be over there helping you. 

Hang in there. :grouphug:


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## Hollowdweller (May 5, 2011)

For night time I think a 12 gauge shotgun with a shorter barrel. There are usually 8 or 9 33 caliber pellets in a shell.

If you can aim the shotgun in the middle of the dogs and fire you can usually hit several.


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## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

Thank You everyone. Luna was my special baby. My Mother~N ~Laws funeral was today. She ended up having a stroke & put in hospice. It has been a very hard year. My Uncle (61) past away 3 months ago, My Father~N~Law last month (not the same in law) & several friends this year & another one in the hospital I was told today they give him 2 days to live. We had 2 people die at work in four months. One walked in & had a heart attack (I knew him for 10 years & another one a couple weeks ago she was 41 asthma attack then caused a heart attack) 
I did talk to the Sherriff & he said shoot the dogs. That's what they always say. That was about it. 
We did put up a wire fence around the goat pen the others already had chain link around them. We are working on an electric fence. My sister does have a monitor on so they can hear anything outside by the animals. 
I have 2LGD & now my sister is looking for some. 
We know the dogs will be back as soon as they get a chance. The neighbor has heard the dog owners calling the dogs back. They also have been warned they will be killed. My brother n law saw 3 dogs but they have 6 of them 2 blacks 2 almost black & 2 normal color. He can not pick out 2 of them because they look to similar.


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