# WMD ... selenium injection questions, and how long to respond? (Newborn Lamb)



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ok, for once my problem is with a baby lamb not a kid ... but it is basically the same thing as if it was a kid, so I'm hoping someone can answer this.

When giving selenium and V E to WMD case, how long should it be before she improves? Should I repeat the dose at any time?

This is a 1 week old bottle fed lamb. Weighs about 10lb.
She has been progressively stiffer and weaker in the legs, and after looking it up the symptoms are a perfect match for WMD( we are in a deficient area)

I have no access to Bo-Se (takes a vet, and is 50 mile away), so I worked out from the Bo-Se factsheet how much she should have for her bodyweight, and used human "Selenium Drops" (in a little saline) to give her a selenium injection of 200mcg. I also gave her 2 oil caps in her milk of a "nuerological support" mix that happens to contain 25mg each of V E, so 50mg total.

That was last night. This morning I gave her another 25mg of V E, and plan on another tonight.

Yesterday, before treatment, she was unable to walk, unable to stand up, if lifted to her feet, she could stand with help for a half minute or so tops.

Today, when lifted to her feet, she can stand with better stability, can stand for perhaps a whole minute without much support, although she needs support if she tries to squat to pee, and with a little help in balancing can totter a few steps.

My question is ... is this a normal rate of improvement? Or is this slow? I always got the impression it was faster ... should I give her some more selenium? I can do smaller doses ... what if I gave her 25 or 50 mcg daily for a short while until she is better? Or would this be too dangerous? It would stay well below the "lethal dose" in total ...

How much V E should I keep giving her?

Even when/if she recovers and is back to normal, obviously she should have further supplementation later ... is that a repeat dose every week or month or something?


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

I forgot to mention ... the reason she is a bottle baby is because she got chilled one night, and after warming and returning she wasn't following the mum (now I know because of the WMD).

So she is being fed on goats milk ...


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm not sure. I have seen it given 2 weeks later but not sure for WMD.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

When we had wmd in our lamb..she was so bad she bunny hopped to walk..we did bose three days in a row i believe then once a week for three weeks..along with one vit e cap....she was much older...about 1-2 months old..i would need to go back and search my records. it takes time to fully recover..how long depends on how bad. Once she is good to go...annual boosters are needed....and if one is low..all are low..so i would treat all unbred sheep. Never use selenium on pregnant ewes...they dont know why..but this can cause death in the ewe. I give it to new moms a week after kidding to be safe lol..maybe im paranoid lol. We give before breeding season as well.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

By the way...our lamb is now a first time mom with no problems


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ok good to know.

I gave her a further 50mg of selenium last night, and have her on 25mg V E cap twice daily. I'm thinking I may continue this, including the lower dose selenium daily, for a week or so depending on how she responds.

Good news this morning, when I first went to lift her to her feet, she actually used her back legs a little to help push up. She stood on her own for about 2 minutes, collapsing back again just before I brought her bottle over, but when she saw her bottle coming she got back up on her back legs and knelt on her front ones to feed.

She still needs help to stand right up, but once up is pretty good on her balance, even can pee without support, still only capable of tottering a few steps at a time, but needs less help to balance when she does. She seems less pained by standing, and although still definitely hunched, is starting to straighten out.

She's easily tired in her legs though!

I've got another 4 lambs down the paddock, and 2-3 more ewes to lamb. I am definately going to give a selenium shot to the new lambs as they are born to those last sheep. I'm thinking I will give them to the last twins born, who I can still catch. There is also a single ewe lamb who looks all good, growing like a fat mushroom ... but she runs away.

I'm concerned about the male twin of this girl. He's still with the ewe. He's walking and running, and no way on earth can I catch him (Iana thinks I will 'steal' him too and takes him away) but he is just a little hunched. I have a horrible suspicion he has a very mild case of WMD as well ... the only way I can give him a shot would be to bring them all up to the yards, and put all the baby lambs and the still-pregnant sheep at risk of the ram or other sheep bashing them in close quarters. Actually quite dangerous as my ram has horns and doesn't appreciate crowds ... usually I wait until all sheep have lambed and the lambs are at least 2 weeks old.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh those wild ones can be hard...thankfully I have a lot of hands here to help catch one if needed...try setting up a temp pen...like with cattle panels or portable pen....feed the moms and babies in the pen...once in...close it and grab the mom and her ram baby...hunching up can mean constipation or not getting enough milk....both of which can be dangerous...check moms udder...if its hard...its congested, often due to selenium def. and so he's not getting enough milk...if its good..then you might give an enema to see if that helps..selenium wont hurt at all since here is obviously a deficiency there..would be a good time to give mom some too....


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Oh ... congested udder can be Selenium? Oh-oh ... originally when I saw the little girl not following well, the boy was always feeding, and looking a little dissatisfied ... so I kept little girl, gave him a couple extra feeds to get him going, and after he became strong and uncatchable left him to mum, figuring she had a bit of congestion so there wasn't enough for two, and the best thing for her was that constant work and bumping from the lamb to bring the milk out.

Since then her udder has reduced to a mostly normal-looking size ... and although he spends a lot of time working it still, he doesn't seem desperately hungry like he was. He's not constipated, that I'm sure of ... I've seen his doings, and if anything his flanks are a little more hollow than I like ... so that would fit with the udder problem too ...

I've just injected all the newest lambs, and that includes a brand new one since my last posting ... who also has a ring on his tail now as first-time mother Sunny got a little carried away with the cleaning and chewed the end off it!!


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

I'm thinking tomorrow (its nearly dark now) I will take the risk of bringing them all up to the yards so I can give selenium to the little boy and the ewes. Once of the more heavily pregnant sheep is now safe, having lambed, and it is possible the ram and the remaining pregnant ewes may wander off elsewhere and let me bring just the new mothers up.

Retained afterbirth is a selenium deficiency thing too isn't it? Sunny hasn't dropped hers yet ... granted it has only been 3 hours ... but still.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yes..congested udder is just one of the many signs of selenium deficiency....other signs can be...retained placenta/kids/lambs...sluggish labor, weak legs in new borns, bent legs in new borns and of course WMD...I would check brother to be sure he is getting enough and not slowly starving... he maybe grazing more to try to fill up...but really needs that milk...


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

just as a reminder, because its imporant...be sure not to give Selenium to pregnant ewes...as stated before this can cause death of the ewe...


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Well as of this morning Sunny still hasn't dropped the afterbirth, so I had to bring her up to the shed ... also it started raining and her chosen tree was too wet so I wanted to bring her baby up and towel him off! He will have a little rain jacket on before he goes back out.

Thing is this first time mother had no idea how to follow a carried lamb ... so after much rushing around the paddock, I now have the perfect situation: not only her, but also Iana with her boy, and the mum of the other lamb who hasn't yet had her selenium, all up the shed.

So as of this moment, Sunny has had oxytocin and selenium jabs. Next, Iana will be getting her selenium and udder checked, 2 more lambs will have their selenium, and 2 will have little raincoats put on them.

There are other lambs still down the paddock, but those have all found adequate shelter ... all dry and warm.

On the subject of my bottle lamb, she is in a very similar state to yesterday still.
She had a bit of a relapse yesterday afternoon ... weaker in the legs ... possibly just tired as she had been stood up several times over the day.
This morning she's stable again ... needs help to stand up, but does try to push up herself as well, and stands fairly strongly for about 2 minutes at a time.

I'm concerned that she is not improving very fast ... but not sure what else I can do for her.

This all has to be selenium deficiency. In the last three weeks I've had:
1 goat birth 2 weeks early.
Those kids had soft legs ... one died very soon of respiratory issues.
Another kid first had a seizure/breathing/overheating problem one morning, and after returning to normal, died of an apparant heart attack 2 days later.
A calf was born with bent legs (which came right within 48 hours) and died of a heart attack 9 days later.
A sheep gave birth without good milk production.
A lamb has classic symptoms of WMD ... which although only slowly has improved with selenium supplementation ...
Another sheep has retained placenta ...

Good grief this is my month for you!!


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

How long does a selenium injection last? If I give my ewes a shot before breeding, will it still do them good right up to lambing? Should I give the ewes another after lambing, and/or one to the lambs when they are perhaps a month old?

Looking at the goats and cows as well ...


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

wow..it does sounds like you are having a very sad year!!...Good job in getting them all up close to the house to treat! with sheep that is not an easy task.
With selenium deficiency being bad I would give selenium before breeding and after lambing/kidding. Save the Selenium booster for the rams and bucks for AFTER breeding, as it can slow the swimmers...;-) I give each new born 1/4 cc of injectable selenium right away...

for your bottle baby...try Cod liver oil...also work with her several times a day to build leg muscles...the longer she is down the more muscle she will loose..she may need a sling of some sort to help her exercise...


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Too busy to report back yesterday!! (Looking after the sheep, goats, and building an incubator).

The little girl is more or less the same ... no worse at least ... slightly stronger in her standing I think.

She seems to have down times and up times ... first stand of the morning her legs have gone to sleep so she's a little sluggish ... but after that she's pretty good. After about midday she seems to slow down, like her legs are getting tired from all the effort (standing for up to 2 minutes every hour or two), but then late afternoon she's getting stronger again and is good until bedtime.

Interesting to come up here and read your suggestions for cod liver oil and a sling ... as of yesterday I started her on a little cod liver oil, no particular reason I just felt it might help.

The day before I discovered it was WMD, and all I thought I had was a weak lamb getting worse rapidly, I had put her in a sling, but it seemed to tire her out and she couldn't stand that night at all ... but then she was getting worse rapidly anyway ... and it was that night I discovered the match in WMD symptoms and gave her a shot. She seemed a little stronger within a few hours, and much better by the morning, but has been almost static ever since. Maybe its time to try the sling again.

I'm helping her to her feet several times a day, every feeding and a couple of times in between. She doesn't try and walk though anymore, she just isn't interested in the idea ... and if I try and push her along gently, she resists until I think she will fall and stop. Every time she lays back down on the other side, clever little thing ... preventing pressure sores all on her own. I have recently taken to sitting her with different legs stretched out instead of tucked up each time ... I don't think its good for them to be always folded away.

I will try her in her sling again for short periods today ... and probably start with a little massage and physio, flex her little legs ... she is losing muscle tone definitely, she is growing (almost too big to sit in her basket comfortably now), and getting a little fatter, but her legs are still spindly little things and there is no filling over her rump ... no muscle up there. I'm concerned to overstress her legs though, if her muscles are damaged and weak from WMD, I'm scared of doing them further harm asking too much of her before they are strong enough ... I suppose I just have to do little and often and watch her strength.

She's feeding pretty well, doesn't have a massive appetite, never has taken any more than the 3 cups a day she was on as a newborn ... but for someone that doesn't move much I think that is normal. So she's on three cups of goat milk a day, with a little whole milk powder and butter added to make it more like sheep milk which is very rich ... with a teaspoon of cod liver oil and 50mg V E twice daily, and a 50mcg shot of selenium once daily.

The others are all good for now ... they've all had their selenium/V E. The twin brother is still hunched a lot of the time, but his mum's udder seems to be fine, she may not have as much milk as he would like I don't know for sure, but she is not congested. He is growing and getting stronger, and running around the place. I think he is less hunched all the time - but he is not fat. She is an old sheep ... 9 years ... and has raised a lot of twins. Her teeth are fantastic, but she's going slowly lame. Her legs are stiffening, and because she moves less her hooves are getting scald all the time. I think this will be her last babies ... she just can't keep up with the demand any more.

Nothing ever induced Sunny to drop the placenta ... not oxytocin, not herbs ... so I've got her on drenches of V C and garlic ... and standing by with antibiotics if she shows any signs of issues ... slightly concerned ... but I do have plenty of antibiotic.

On my way to take baby out, give her some physio and install her in her sling for a little while.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I dont think it will hurt baby ewe to excersise the legs .she needs it to build and retain muscle..stretching and massages are all good things.. miggt try giving brother one bottle a day to see if his hunched back is due to hunger. At any rate...they are in good hands


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would put Sunny on penicillin for 7 days...just to prevent infection. ....
Best wishes


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Ok she is very easily tired out in the legs.

She's had two sessions in the sling, one for 5 minutes, one for probably 2. I had to keep them short because she has grown slightly since I made the sling and it is not taking enough weight off her, essentially simply forcing her to stand ... so I need to make a better one that I can lift a little higher so she can take just a bit of weight.

One session of flexing and rubbing her legs ... and been stood up half a dozen times including the above. Once I succeeded in getting her to take a few steps.

She declares her legs are exhausted, weak shaky and possibly painful although I think it is more a matter of taking so much effort to stand that it is a strain on them. Although she will still stand nicely if asked to, and for a reasonable length of time, she's not happy about it.

When sitting down, she is as happy as normal.

I plan on giving her several hours of 'normal' treatment, that is just standing her up for as long as she wants to every hour or two, but with massage and working of the legs each time, and then ask for some more walking and sling sessions late this afternoon.

I'm not sure whether her original problem has not fully healed yet, or if it has but her legs are simply now too weak anyway. It probably doesn't help that her body has grown a couple of pound in the meantime!


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Swayback: Congenital locomotor ataxia of lambs, thought to be associated with copper deficiency. It is characterized clinically by progressive incoordination of the hind limbs and pathologically by disruption of neuron and myelin development in the central nervous system. It is caused by a deficiency of metabolizable copper in the ewe during the last half of her pregnancy. (Dorland, 28th ed; Stedman, 26th ed). 
Source: MeSH 2007

Good Practice based on Current Knowledge

Establish whether the soil is deficient in copper or high in molybdenum.
Establish whether copper deficiency is the reason why the lambs are not doing well (e.g. blood samples or liver copper levels following post mortem).
Use plants in the sward (e.g. legumes) which contain a higher level of minerals, including copper.
Do not improve pastures through the use of lime in severely copper deficient areas.
In copper deficient areas use breeds of sheep that are less susceptible to copper deficiency.
If necessary control and prevent swayback in lambs by supplementing pregnant ewes with copper containing boluses

http://www.organicvet.co.uk/Sheepweb/disease/copdweb/copd1.htm


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good info Jill!!^^^ we don't often think of Copper def. in sheep!!


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Oh I do! Lol ... I do have copper deficiency in my area, and supplement the sheep for it as well as the goats.

I did check out swayback for this little lamb ... but its not it. A) my sheep are on a copper supplement already, particularly in late pregnancy, B) the symptoms of this lamb don't match so well.

She's weak and uncomfortable in all 4 legs, whereas swayback victims are semi paralyzed in the back legs only ... they sort of drag themselves around on their front legs ... this girl sits, or stands on wobbly legs with an arched back ... like white muscle disease, which I've had before.

Also, the number of things directly attributable to selenium deficiency which have happened in the last 3 weeks is phenomenal ... Premature birth, retained afterbirths, weak babies x 6, heart attacks in babies x 2 (one of whom I can confirm had white streaking in the muscles), and weak legs x 2 (the other was a calf) lower than normal milk production x 2 ... I'm reasonably certain it must be selenium. 

On the plus side, despite her day of exercise, she is no weaker this afternoon ... I think this exercise will help.


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

May I introduce you to LambLamb!! Lol. Cute little button ... at least when she's sitting down ...


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

http://rmjones.com/newsletters/agrimin_flyer_pub_(Read-Only.pdf


----------



## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

Busy day yesterday didn't get up here again!

LambLamb is notably better ... I gave her lots of work that day, and a double dose of selenium (with trepidation, but I calculated carefully that it was still a little less than the strongest product dosage out there), and with the thought of minerals, vitamins, and healing benefits gave her some strong comfrey tea in her milk, as well as the tiniest tiniest bit of copper (so little I think it wouldn't do anything for her but I was that scared of overdosing her ...)

What it was I don't know, but the next day she got up and walked 2 or three times, stands much stronger now, and it must be said her digestion is better.

She's still nowhere near well yet, but this is the best sign to date! Possibly a slight relapse this morning ... she is strong, standing well, but hasn't walked. Maybe she simply doesn't have the same inclination ... she was moving herself into the shade yesterday.

However I think she is much better.

Her brother has had a bottle a day for 2 days now ... he is hungry. He guzzles his milk until he is full. Even with a small bottle twice now he looks a bit happier, but I think it is not enough. I suspect I will have to feed him quite a lot.


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

good news..something is working..: ) keep up the good work. 

( Im wondering if the tiny bit of copper was the helping hand she needed...)


----------

