# Sick 6 day old Pygmy



## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

I have a 6 day old Pygmy kid. She’s the first bottle fed baby I’ve ever had. I’ve been feeding her the goat milk replacer. She was doing really good with it. About her 2nd or 3rd day I noticed her limping around favoring her left front leg. That day she had a rectal temp of 103.8. However it went down to 103.2 the next day and no more limping. I did palpate her legs but she didn’t respond as if in pain. So I just thought she nicked her leg. But the past two days she has had very runny poop. Yesterday she had some that was a little green. Since then it’s been yellow. I am feeding her 4 times a day 3oz. She just rejected her first bottle today and I just checked her temp and it’s 105.3! I noticed she didn’t want to walk around and is standing with her back hunched. I suspect it may be joint ill. The only vet around me is on vacation for the next 12 days. There is another vet an hour away but I haven’t been able to get in touch with anyone yet. Is there anything I can give her to bring the temp down and any way I can get her to take something to help her?? I’m so worried about her and do not know much about goats. Her umbilical may be swollen but I’m not sure if there’s normally a little bump around it. Any information would be helpful.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Can you post a picture of her umbilical area? Also, she may be having problems with the replacer. How much does she weigh?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Any swelling in the leg joints? I agree she may not be doing well on replacer. To address the scours, stop replacer for 12 to 24 hours...feed her a quality electrolyte in place of milk. Once she is firming up feed her whole cows milk from the grocery store. To know how much to start with, get her weight. Multiply that by 16 to get her weight in oz and Multiply that by 10% to see what she should start with in milk per day. Divide that into 4 feeding. After each bottle, feel her tummy. You want a flat but firm tummy, no too poochy and not sunken in. Adjust her milk amount +/- as needed a little at a time. 
Add a punch of baking soda in her first bottle of the day and a bit of probiotics in her last bottle of the day.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Could be naval ill.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Can you post a picture of her umbilical area? Also, she may be having problems with the replacer. How much does she weigh?





ksalvagno said:


> Can you post a picture of her umbilical area? Also, she may be having problems with the replacer. How much does she weigh?










She weighs about 4.5 lbs


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Can you post a picture of her umbilical area? Also, she may be having problems with the replacer. How much does she weigh?





ksalvagno said:


> Can you post a picture of her umbilical area? Also, she may be having problems with the replacer. How much does she weigh?



View attachment 213183
She weighs about 4.5 lbs


happybleats said:


> Any swelling in the leg joints? I agree she may not be doing well on replacer. To address the scours, stop replacer for 12 to 24 hours...feed her a quality electrolyte in place of milk. Once she is firming up feed her whole cows milk from the grocery store. To know how much to start with, get her weight. Multiply that by 16 to get her weight in oz and Multiply that by 10% to see what she should start with in milk per day. Divide that into 4 feeding. After each bottle, feel her tummy. You want a flat but firm tummy, no too poochy and not sunken in. Adjust her milk amount +/- as needed a little at a time.
> Add a punch of baking soda in her first bottle of the day and a bit of probiotics in her last bottle of the day.


i don’t think there’s any swelling everything feels normal. I have mana pro goat electrolytes is that good quality?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes..that will do. Keep tabs on her temp as well. Glad there is no swelling. Do see about a picture of her naval.

Oops I see the pic now..


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I see some pink skin but hard to tell if it's red and swollen. Maybe some one else can see better but doesn't look infected to me. But let's see what others see.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> I see some pink skin but hard to tell if it's red and swollen. Maybe some one else can see better but doesn't look infected to me. But let's see what others see.


I couldn’t get the greatest pic of it but when I feel around it it’s like a hard small ball.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

That sounds normal. As long as there no squishy swelling, heat and or pus, should be good.


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## Wcd (Jan 12, 2020)

If I may suggest whole milk versus Mana Pro, we have used both and have had superior results with whole milk from local dairy.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Wcd said:


> If I may suggest whole milk versus Mana Pro, we have used both and have had superior results with whole milk from local dairy.


Is any whole cow milk from the grocery store ok?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes whole milk from the grocery store is fine too.


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## JML Farms (Jan 1, 2021)

Mshaw said:


> Is any whole cow milk from the grocery store ok?


Yes. That’s what I use. They do well with it.


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## Wcd (Jan 12, 2020)

As others have stated yes, the reason we get it from our local dairy is that they have pasteurized but not homogenized available. Also we try to support local businesses versus big box retailers when possible.

if yo go the whole milk route scours are not an issue as can be with the Mana Pro. Not saying anything bad about it, just for us it was not the best option.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Wcd said:


> As others have stated yes, the reason we get it from our local dairy is that they have pasteurized but not homogenized available. Also we try to support local businesses versus big box retailers when possible.
> 
> if yo go the whole milk route scours are not an issue as can be with the Mana Pro. Not saying anything bad about it, just for us it was not the best option.


Okay I will buy whole milk from the store for now and see if I can’t find a local dairy. I’m sure there is one around me. Thank you so much!


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## Wcd (Jan 12, 2020)

Mshaw said:


> Okay I will buy whole milk from the store for now and see if I can’t find a local dairy. I’m sure there is one around me. Thank you so much!


You are very welcome, another thing that has helped us is a tablespoon or two of whole plain yogurt mixed in.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Be sure the dairy is tested negative for Johnes if you go fresh cow dairy milk 😉
I have raised many babies on whole cows milk from the grocery.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Be sure the dairy is tested negative for Johnes if you go fresh cow dairy milk 😉
> I have raised many babies on whole cows milk from the grocery.


Okay will do. I hope this is all that’s wrong with her. I’m so worried. She took one ounce of the electrolytes a couple hours ago but won’t take to the bottle since. She looks so pitiful 😢💔she’s just standing slouched. Her temp came down a little to 104.2.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Poor baby. When tummy hurts they can be pretty sad looking. Temp is slightly elevated still (101.5- 103.5 being normal range) she may need antibiotics. She .aybe dealing with more than upset tummy. Be prepared with tylan 200 (otc) or nuflor (rx) I would also give her a shot of B complex.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Poor baby. When tummy hurts they can be pretty sad looking. Temp is slightly elevated still (101.5- 103.5 being normal range) she may need antibiotics. She .aybe dealing with more than upset tummy. Be prepared with tylan 200 (otc) or nuflor (rx) I would also give her a shot of B complex.


I will pick these up first thing in the morning. Her breathing is pretty fast and she’s shaking. All I have right now is the electrolytes and the baking soda. Praying she makes it through the night I will be heart broken if anything happens to her. But thank you so so much for all of the information.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

What's her temp now? I don't like her breathing fast and shaking. 😔


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> What's her temp now? I don't like her breathing fast and shaking. 😔


It’s up at 105 now. 😣 Is there anything I can give her to bring it down? Like Tylenol or aspirin?


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Mshaw said:


> It’s up at 105 now. 😣 Is there anything I can give her to bring it down? Like Tylenol or aspirin?


She did just drink about 2 more ounces of electrolytes.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You can give a regular aspirin..1 adult per 10 pounds..so maybe 1/2 an adult. You can also do cool compresses under her arm pits and behind ears. Her temp needs to come down


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

105 is definitely sign of infection. She will need antibiotics. Do you have access to quality essential oils?


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> 105 is definitely sign of infection. She will need antibiotics. Do you have access to quality essential oils?


No essential oils. My mother says she has banamine. She bought some for her horse about a year ago and it’s been sitting in her fridge since. Could I give her some of that? I did give her half the aspirin before my mom called me.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would Wait til morning then give banamine..since you gave aspirin. Dose will be tiny. Dose is 1 cc per 100 pounds so a 1 cc syringe would be needed to get her Dose easier to draw up.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Do cold compresses if temp is above 104. Cool her off


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Just took her temp and it was 106 😞 just put more cold compresses on her and gave her aspirin again to bring it back down again.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

She needs antibiotics asap. Give her bananine this morning. Got tobget temp down or she can seizure. This is more than upset tummy. 
A few common antibiotics available OTC doses
Tylan 200 1 cc per 25 pounds sub Q
Tylan 50 4 cc per 25 pounds sub q
Penicillin 1 cc per 20 pounds sub Q
LA 200 1 cc per 20 pounds sub Q

Always pull back the plunger on syringe before injecting to check for blood. No blood good to go, see blood re adjust and try again.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> She needs antibiotics asap. Give her bananine this morning. Got tobget temp down or she can seizure. This is more than upset tummy.
> A few common antibiotics available OTC doses
> Tylan 200 1 cc per 25 pounds sub Q
> Tylan 50 4 cc per 25 pounds sub q
> ...


my husband just picked up some Tylan 200 that’s all they had, penicillin and bananine. Should I just give her one of those with the bananine? Her temp came down to 102.6and she’s still drinking electrolytes. Called a couple emergency vets around here and had to leave voicemails.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Give the tylan 200, 1 cc per 25 sub q...save the banamine for when her temp is high. Glad her temp is down and she's taking electrolytes. How's her poops?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Be aware..Tylan 200 can sting. Expect a reaction.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Be aware..Tylan 200 can sting. Expect a reaction.


Okay gave her the Tylan 200. She did good. Also some vitamin b. Her poo is yellow and mushy. I’ve only been giving her the electrolytes in a bottle since last night and she’s doing good with that.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good job. Hopefully she will start to feel better soon. And poop will start to firm.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice, hope the baby will be ok.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Good job. Hopefully she will start to feel better soon. And poop will start to firm.











does this look normal?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Looks like she's firming up. That's good.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Looks like she's firming up. That's good.


When would you suggest I start giving her the whole cow milk?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You can try her last bottle tonight with a little probiotics in it tonight as long as poop doesn't get too loose again. But looks like things there is on track


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> You can try her last bottle tonight with a little probiotics in it tonight as long as poop doesn't get too loose again. But looks like things there is on track


The bananine really helped her. She has been up and walking for the first time and seems like herself again. I am thinking I may have been overfeeding her unfortunately😞 she’s my first bottle baby so this was a hard lesson. I worry if I wouldn’t have found this website and had your help she wouldn’t have made it. Thank you so much for your time and input!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Awe..look at her..im so happy she is doing better. Don't beat yourself up on bottle feeding. There is so much info out there can be confusing. I'm glad we were able to help. This forum is amazing and has so much info. Never be afraid to ask questions even if it seems silly. We love questions and love helping you become successful!! 
Be sure to do 5 full days of tylan..and banamine only if temp is high. Re weigh her every few days and adjust her milk amount accordingly. Keep us posted!! 

Best wishes


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

Aw, she’s beautiful. I’m so glad she’s doing better. And you did great, reaching out to people who could help when you knew something was wrong. We are all learning. Luckily, there’s so many here who are knowledgeable and eager to help those of us who simply don’t know yet. Keep up the good work!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

So precious, good work.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

So I found a lady who has some antitoxin. I think she said it’s called C&D but I am not sure. Is this something I could give her also? Will this be okay with the Tylan? Just want to make sure. She also gave me some goat milk that she said is labeled a few days old is this okay to give to her also instead of the cow milk? She said it would be fine but I just want to get a few more opinions.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Make sure the medication is CD antitoxin not cd&t. It won't hurt to give her some if she's still acting off tummy wise. Dose would be 5 cc sub Q. 
Goats milk will be perfectly fine. When you run out. You can easily switch to cows milk.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

So today I thought things were going well but now I’m not sure. She doesn’t have a fever and is still eating good. I’m giving her 2 oz of the goat milk every 4 hours. However I noticed that twice today when outside she has like a weird spell where she can’t hold her backside up. Her back legs go all wonky for a few seconds but then she’s fine. She’s been sleeping a lot. Could it just be from laying down so long? She’s sleeping on her belly with her legs tucked under her not on her side. I do notice after I give her a bottle she just stands there and her hair is sticking up.


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Maybe some replamin plus gel would be good to give her, I don't know if this was already mentioned


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Are you feeding her based on her weight now? And only 4 bottles a day? How does her tummy look/feel after fed,, too poochy or sunken in? Or flat and firm? Hows her poop? Peeing ok? 
Everything else seems OK?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Also. How's her breathing now?


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Are you feeding her based on her weight now? And only 4 bottles a day? How does her tummy look/feel after fed,, too poochy or sunken in? Or flat and firm? Hows her poop? Peeing ok?
> Everything else seems OK?


Yep based on her weight giving her 10 percent. Only 4 bottles a day. It feels flat and firm to me afterwards. Her last poop was last night and it was firm, still colored from the electrolytes. She hasn’t pooped today at all but she’s peeing fine. Everything else seems okay. But she’s definitely not back to how she was yet. She was pretty playful and energetic. She’s just been sleeping pretty much all day. Only seems to get energy when she knows she’s getting a bottle. Walking a little when I take her outside but very slow.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Are you feeding her based on her weight now? And only 4 bottles a day? How does her tummy look/feel after fed,, too poochy or sunken in? Or flat and firm? Hows her poop? Peeing ok?
> Everything else seems OK?





happybleats said:


> Also. How's her breathing now?


It might be a little raspy. And she’s still grinding teeth.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

If shes not pooped..let's do an enema. It won't hurt her if she doesn't need it but can sure help if she does. 
I prefer to use oil and warm water but soap and water works too. I use maybe a tablespoon of olive or other cooking oil with 1/2 c very warm but not hot water. Use a syring, no needle and stir and draw some up. Insert just the tip and slowly push plunger. I do this until a bit squirts back out. Always be slow and gentle. Some babies absolutely hate it and will fuss..but this is not painful. Massage tummy a bit and let her walk about. If she pushes a good amount of enema out with no poop..ge try refill her. Be slow, gentle and patient.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

She just pooped finally.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Some babies just need more time to adjust to new milk. Grinding teeth and weak back legs can be from not pooping. Let's see if the enema helps and go from there


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok berries mixed with mucus. That looks like a fair amount. Let's see how she feels now.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Some babies just need more time to adjust to new milk. Grinding teeth and weak back legs can be from not pooping. Let's see if the enema helps and go from there


Soon as I set her down just now she pooped lol!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I'm glad. Boy they sure can make us worry!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Let's keep a close eye and see if her back legs still buckle. Hopefully we see more energy as well.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree and so glad to see poo.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Yesterday went well but she didn’t poop at all. This morning she woke up acting like she was in pain so I did an enema…a lot of poo came out. Hoping this makes her feel better


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

I am sure it did. Just keep an eye on it. Failure to pass stool is also a sign of dehydration.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Some babies get a bit messed up and need enemas for a while. I had a lamb that needed them every few days for a month or longer. Be sure to add the probiotics or yogurt. It helps. . Youre doing great!!


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Tanya said:


> I am sure it did. Just keep an eye on it. Failure to pass stool is also a sign of dehydration.


I gave her some electrolytes. I’ve been giving her probiotics with her last bottle every night. How many hours should I put in between her feedings? She was born September 24th so she is two weeks old today. I’m giving her 10 percent of her body weight.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

How frequently are you feeding? 4 times per day is fine.


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

At the moment it should be at 5 bottles from 3 to 4 weeks its 4 from 6 to 8 weeks they should recognise water so it can be 2 to 3 and 8 to 10 weeks 2 bottles because you need to wean then up to 12 weeks 1 after 14 weeks you should be giving her 0


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I've never bottle fed more than 4 bottles per day unless some extraordinary circumstance warranted it.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> How frequently are you feeding? 4 times per day is fine.


I’ve been doing 4 bottles a day with 4-5 hrs in between each feeding


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is fine.


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

ksalvagno said:


> I've never bottle fed more than 4 bottles per day unless some extraordinary circumstance warranted it.


Sorry... i calculate for a rescue baby...🤦‍♀️


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

She just started to look like she was having a seizure. Calling vets desperately trying to find someone to help me around here. I don’t know what’s going on with her. 😣 she’s lying on her side right now. She’s been doing so good the past couple days I’m so lost.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree with 4 bottles a day. 
Try not to let her lay on her side. Prop her with a rolled towel on blanket. Take her temp asap.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> I agree with 4 bottles a day.
> Try not to let her lay on her side. Prop her with a rolled towel on blanket. Take her temp asap.


101.4 is her temp. I have her wrapped up in a blanket.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Is she still seizing? 
Is she still on antibiotics? Did she poop on her own after what the enema produced?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Go ahead and get a pinch of cayenne pepper in honey and rub her gums.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Go ahead and get a pinch of cayenne pepper in honey and rub her gums.


I’m thinking maybe her temp was just low and she was weak and shaking. She’s in my lap wrapped up I don’t feel her shaking anymore. Not on antibiotics anymore. She pooped alot after I gave her the enema but not since then.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

How many days of antibiotics did she get?


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> How many days of antibiotics did she get?


5 days


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

If her temp keeps dropping we will need to figure the cause...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Are you using pretty warm water for the enema?


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I would put a heat source under this baby's core (tummy), heating pad, microwave bag of dry beans or rice wrapped in a towel, or hot water bottle..... babies that struggle have a hard time keeping up their temp.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

I just dropped her off at a vet. Finally got someone to take her in between appointments. Hopefully they can figure out what’s going on and get her back on track.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Hope it goes well, let us know what they say.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

@Mshaw. Any news?


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

How is baby?


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

So they kept her over night. I got a text from the technician that took her home with her last night and she sent me a video of her trying to walk. Taking a few steps then falling. She’s definitely doing better but not out of the woods yet. I haven’t heard anything on any of the tests yet. Anxiously waiting for the vet to call me today.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

🙏


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Might ask for them to give her thiamine. I'm sorry she's not well. Prayers they figure it out.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

So I just got to see her for a few minutes. She looks a lot better and is walking now. They haven’t gotten test results back but vet is pretty sure she has meningitis so they are treating her for that. They are going to keep her until Monday. Looks like she will be okay hopefully 🙏🏼 😣


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Hum. That's a crazy diagnosis for one so young. But since test results aren't in, I assume it's a guess based on symptoms. Many neurological illnesses respond to antibiotics, steroid and thiamine. So hopefully this is a route they are going. 
Prayers for your little one!! 🙏


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree Cathy.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

So I just brought her back home. When I talked to the vet he said somehow her blood work got lost so he had to draw more blood and send it off to a different lab. They gave me unasyn, thiamine and banamine shots to give her for the next 3 days. She does have a little eye twitching and she shakes sometimes. But she seems to be in a better mood. Running around. However when I got her home I noticed really bad diarrhea…a lot of it. When I asked how much they were feeding her the technician told me 4-5 oz every couple of hours…she is 4.8 lbs. So I still don’t know exactly what is wrong with her and I think they may have been over feeding her. But she’s home and seems happy to be back. I feel so bad for her. I hope this helps her. She is still grinding teeth so I know she is in pain.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sounds like she is getting proper treatment.

How awful they overfed her, that alone can kill her.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Poor little one. How much thiamine did they send home? She should have it every 6 hours. Do you know what strength it is?500 mg, 25o mg or?
Is the antibiotics injected or oral? I have not seen Unasyn used on goats in my readings or research project. Guess I should read up some more. 
Stop milk until she firms up. Try 12 hours and go from there. Electrolytes as before.
Fingers crossed she fully recovers for you and soon. 🥰


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Sorry for the late response…I was giving her a small amount of unasyn 3 times a day, thiamine and banamine twice a day. I can’t remember the dosage they gave me now unfortunately. It was all injections. I thought she was finally getting better. But yesterday she began to not want to walk again. She could stand but she acted like walking was painful. This is how it has always started when she starts to get sick…first she doesn’t want to walk, then she doesn’t want to eat. This morning was the same so I gave her a little bit of banamine again and she was up and walking like everything was fine again. Everything else seems normal. I asked my cousin who is a vet tech and she suggested having the vet I took her to test her blood for CAE. I was wondering what everyone’s thoughts were on this?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Shes too young to test for disease, testing is not accurate under 6 months old. 
Since banamine helps her seem normal, I would assume it's inflammation....possibly something in the brain. I feel like I'm missing something. Thinking outloud.... 
There are a few things mom can pass to babies causing neurological issues...CAE is one. encephalitic cae causes many of these symptoms but I don't think she be alive by now. I'll need to go remind my brain but you can look it up as well. 
Born with severe copper deficiency. Shows signs much like the CAE but again, would she still be with us? More research needed. 
Mycoplasma, _Arthritis (polyarthritis):_ can cause some of these issues but this one does end in death and pretty rapidly. So we most likely can rule that out. 
Since treatment of antibiotics, thiamine and banamine seemed to work ..I would keep with that. Blood testing wpukd be a good idea, but not for disease, but to see what looks off. 
Perhaps @goathiker has a few ideas?


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Shes too young to test for disease, testing is not accurate under 6 months old.
> Since banamine helps her seem normal, I would assume it's inflammation....possibly something in the brain. I feel like I'm missing something. Thinking outloud....
> There are a few things mom can pass to babies causing neurological issues...CAE is one. encephalitic cae causes many of these symptoms but I don't think she be alive by now. I'll need to go remind my brain but you can look it up as well.
> Born with severe copper deficiency. Shows signs much like the CAE but again, would she still be with us? More research needed.
> ...


Is there a certain kind of copper replacement I could find for her at tractor supply? She’s still a tiny thing so how much copper should I be giving her a day?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Copper is 1 gram per 22 pounds. This is given every 3 to 6 months or annually depending on the need..not daily. Would be a tiny dose. I normally don't start copper until 3 or 4 months old unless I see obvious signs. Can you post a current picture if her?


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Mshaw said:


> Is there a certain kind of copper replacement I could find for her at tractor supply? She’s still a tiny thing so how much copper should I be giving her a day?


Also I don’t have anymore thiamine, should I request more from the vet? I am keeping her separated from the other goats. She’s been in my house with me since I got her because she’s been sick on and off so much. If it did happen to be CAE will I ever be able to put her with my other goats? Is banamine something I could give her consistently to help with pain? I’ve read it could be a negative thing if given too much.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Copper is 1 gram per 22 pounds. Would be a tiny dose. I normally don't start copper until 3 or 4 months old unless I see obvious signs. Can you post a current picture if her?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thiamine at a 500 mg strength is best if he will sell you a bottle. It's not expensive. If he won't then grab fortified b complex in a pinch. 
Banamine is hard on their liver and normally not recommended more than once a day for 3 days. May need to switch to Dexamethsone which reduces the inflammation as well but can be given longer. Dose would be 1 cc per 20 pound IM day one..then reduce dose a little each day for 5 days. We don't want to stop abruptly. 
Many run CAE positive goats with negative goats with no ill effect..others will not risk it. With that saud..if this is CAE related, and already having health issues..the outcome may not be what we want. 
Discuss blood testing with your vet on over all stats of her blood. Again, testing for disease will not give an accurate result as she is still operating under her moms immunity. Once she is 6 to 8 months old. Then I would test for disease.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Her coat does look a tad rough I n spots. Do a good look over for lice. Lice are tiny grayish in color and some have reddish heads. I don't see an immediate copper issue. Let's see if others see something I missed. 
Shes a doll.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Her coat does look a tad rough I n spots. Do a good look over for lice. Lice are tiny grayish in color and some have reddish heads. I don't see an immediate copper issue. Let's see if others see something I missed.
> Shes a doll.


I don’t see any lice but I could be wrong. I did notice on her ears just now I thought it was a scab but when I pulled it off her hair came off with it. It’s like it was separated from the skin.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

As long as the skin is soft..no crust or stabbing it should be fine. Maybe part of her mineral needs.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> As long as the skin is soft..no crust or stabbing it should be fine. Maybe part of her mineral needs.


So speaking long term…is there anything I can give her that won’t be hard on her liver but will keep her from being in pain? I’m just worried at this point I won’t be able to keep her alive up to 6 months to get her tested for CAE without having to give her the banamine or dexamethasone and destroying her liver. She seems to do okay up to a couple days after being given banamine for a few days


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

You can give her baby aspirin for pain, instead of benamine & dex. It will bother her rumen, but give her probios, or Jumpstart once a week should offset any problems. 
Have you given her a CDT injection? And, when you hear from your vet, could you post the levels of what they find? She looks low on zinc and Vit c. I do hope you keep working with her, she is adorable!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Aspirin will help with pain but won't do much if there is some sort of brain inflammation. 
You can certainly try and see if it makes a difference. Def do probiotics daily.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Moers kiko boars said:


> You can give her baby aspirin for pain, instead of benamine & dex. It will bother her rumen, but give her probios, or Jumpstart once a week should offset any problems.
> Have you given her a CDT injection? And, when you hear from your vet, could you post the levels of what they find? She looks low on zinc and Vit c. I do hope you keep working with her, she is adorable!


She hasn’t had a cdt injection yet. She’s almost 3 weeks old when I should I give it to her? I’m definitely giving her my all…been researching literally all day on anything I could do to help her 😭 how many times a day could she take baby aspirin? I asked my vet to send me her shot records so I should have them by morning.
I’ve been giving her merricks probiotics is this okay?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would not vaccinate while she is not well. Always save that for a healthy animal. I recommend also waiting until weening age when her own immune system is up and running. Some do it sooner.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Aspirin is every 12 hours as needed


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Alot of people give CDT at 2ccs orally for floppy kid syndrome. Im not saying your little one has that. But if it helps that nuerological problem, it might help her. Its pnly a suggestion. None of us are veterinarians. Maybe you could call & ask your vet if a you could try the CDT. 
What is her famacha score? The color of her eyelids & gums.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

On probiotics, I have been told if its not from the fridge, they arent strong. So when my Smokin got sick with Barber pole worms. I mixed the powder probiotics to greek yogurt. Pet it in a syringe(no needle) and gave it to her as a drench. It was thick so I added a little electrolyte water to thin it for her. I gave that to her 2xs a day.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Moers kiko boars said:


> Alot of people give CDT at 2ccs orally for floppy kid syndrome. I


Hum. I never heard this? We do recommend cd antitoxin for floppy kid. Seems I need to update my research subjects 🤔


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I never heard of it either, do you have a source so we can look it up?


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Talk to @Jessica84 ...and Ill look it up in my school books!


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)




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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I have only ever had a few cases of flippy kid and I did use CD orally. 
But honestly as I’m reading I am picturing a little doe kid I had that ended up having major copper deficiency. It started like this to a T and I went on for a few months thinking right along the same lines. I treated for pneumonia twice, I thought heat stroke or trauma to the head, I did dex I did banamine. I did all kinds of vitamins. Eventually she could no longer walk. She spent a lot of time on a milk crate. She started acting like she had Parkinson’s. It was just luck another breeder in the area started to talk about how she was battling copper deficiency and that it effects the hind legs. I talked with her and she said this goat didn’t totally fit but she wasn’t sure. I decided she needed to live or be put down so a last ditch effort I over dosed her with a copper bolus. That dang goat finally started to do better and recovered. BUT she was about 4 months at that point, a fully functional rumen. From my understanding you can’t give a bolus unless the rumen is working. So IF this is the case how would she be treated? I honestly don’t know. I’m hoping maybe someone else might. Let me see if I can find what this lady had suggested at the time (it’s been quite a few years). 
But honestly I don’t think it would hurt her to treat her for floppy kid syndrome. I’m not sure that’s what it is but I don’t see how it would harm her Any.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Floppy kid syndrome is basically caused by too much milk. It's the milk going toxic. Wont hurt to stop milk for 12 hours and give baking soda to see if there is any improvement, and if so do fyll protocol, but I'm not convinced this is the issue but copper may be since we don't know moms history. I wonder if a dab of Replime plus would help. I'll look Replime up and see if there is an age limit.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Not finding any Info on age limit. Let see if @toth boer goats or @goathiker has any idea.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think the gel would be the safer bet. I found our conversation and she used copper sulfate but hers was confirmed threw a blood test that she was in fact dealing with copper deficiency. 
@Mshaw by any chance did the vet say what they were going to test for with the blood sample? Any mention of testing any deficiencies? If you are unsure maybe call them Monday and ask or see if they can add that to the list as well. 
I don’t use the gel but from what I have gathered from others on here is it’s fairly safe to give. Happybleats how much would you suggest giving?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Dose on the small end is 2 cc..but if her baby is tiny..I might do half that. I normally don't start supplements in one so young..so im just thinking what I would do.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Floppy kid is 3-10 days of age.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

@Mshaw. Hows baby doing?


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

She does okay for a couple days then seems to go back to not wanting to walk as if it’s painful. So I give her banamine and she seems to do fine for a couple days. Is there something I can get her from tractor supply if she does have copper deficiency? She’s eating well and poo is normal. Hasn’t had a low or high temp anymore.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

I don’t think I’m overfeeding or underfeeding her. But it’s almost like she won’t put on any weight. I was supposed to get her blood tests results back from the vet on Friday but I never got them. I ended up getting sick on Friday and forgot all about it so I didn’t have a chance to call to remind them but I’m going to call them in the morning.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Jessica84 said:


> I think the gel would be the safer bet. I found our conversation and she used copper sulfate but hers was confirmed threw a blood test that she was in fact dealing with copper deficiency.
> @Mshaw by any chance did the vet say what they were going to test for with the blood sample? Any mention of testing any deficiencies? If you are unsure maybe call them Monday and ask or see if they can add that to the list as well.
> I don’t use the gel but from what I have gathered from others on here is it’s fairly safe to give. Happybleats how much would you suggest giving?


They did say weak kid syndrome which didn’t surprise me because she was refusing the bottle and didn’t eat all day. The vet just told me they suspected meningitis but never confirmed. I’m assuming they saw some type of brain inflammation? She went down pretty quickly that day. By the time I got her to the vet around 4 I noticed her eyes were twitching really bad. They said her ova and parasite came back negative. What is ova?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I'm not sure other than copper bolus you can get from tsc for copper, unless they carry Replamin plus. Maybe call area stores. Most order off line from places like Jeffers.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> I'm not sure other than copper bolus you can get from tsc for copper, unless they carry Replamin plus. Maybe call area stores. Most order off line from places like Jeffers.


Thank you I just purchased some replamin plus from Jeffers.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

Today I noticed one of her front knees is a little swollen. Could this be joint ill? I’ve never noticed it before. If so is there a certain prescription I should ask the vet for and for how long should she be on it? Not sure if joint ill could cause her to have all of these symptoms or not.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Is the vet experienced with goats? Is there another vet you could try?

Here is a page on joint ill: https://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/jointill.html


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Hows her temp? Joint ill normally shows by 3 weeks old and with one or more swollen joint along with high temp from the infection.
Does the joint feel hot, hard, squishy or fluid filled?

Best ever antibiotics for joint ill is Baytril given once a day for 10 days. Banamine or Dex maybe needed to reduce fever and inflammation.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

What Cathy said.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

So she hasn’t been running a fever. I did notice last night and today she is not wanting to use her back legs….Her front leg doesn’t feel hot so it could’ve just been my paranoia. I’m getting the impression that the vet I took her to doesn’t see goats very often but I’ve been getting advise from my cousin who works with a vet who does. They still suggested getting a CAE test done. It’s not expensive so I told them we can go ahead and do that. I know you said that it’s not useful when they are under 6 months because they are still running off of moms antibodies but is that still true if they never got milk from mom? I did some research and found a herbalist who makes stuff for her goats and some of the reviews said it helps their goats with CAE. I did give her her first dose of that today mixed in with her milk and she acted like she had WAY more energy today. So maybe it’s helping her feel better. I’m hoping so I don’t have to keep giving her banamine. Still waiting on the stuff to come in that helps if they are struggling with copper deficiency.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Mshaw said:


> they are still running off of moms antibodies but is that still true if they never got milk from mom?


Are you saying the kid didn't get colostrum from the dam when born?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Molly's hasn't owned goats for many years. If you want herbs from people who actually currently own goats, then you want Fir Meadow or Land of Havilah.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Are you saying the kid didn't get colostrum from the dam when born?


Not from mom. From what I understand she was rejected and the lady that she was given to that had her a few days after used a colostrum replacer.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Molly's hasn't owned goats for many years. If you want herbs from people who actually currently own goats, then you want Fir Meadow or Land of Havilah.


Thanks for the info


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Correct. The CAE test may give a false read so please don't take results as 100% accurate.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Correct. The CAE test may give a false read so please don't take results as 100% accurate.


Okay I will keep that in mind.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

I got a copper bolus pill from a friend how should I give this to her and how much?


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

1 gram per 22#. You can use a bolus gun and put it down the throat, or sprinkle on marshmallows, some mix in applesauce.
I prefer the bolus down the throat, but whatever works!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Since she is a tiny girl..1 gram per 22 pounds will be a small amount, you could place her dose far back on her tongue with your hand just before feeding her her bottle. Slip her bottle in right after to help wash things down. With that said...not sure how well it will work without a functioning rumen. 🤞🤞🤞


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> Since she is a tiny girl..1 gram per 22 pounds will be a small amount, you could place her dose far back on her tongue with your hand just before feeding her her bottle. Slip her bottle in right after to help wash things down. With that said...not sure how well it will work without a functioning rumen. 🤞🤞🤞


I got the copper down just put it on the back of her tongue. But I think I am going to have to put her down 😔 she’s just not wanting to walk at all today. She keeps shaking her head. I’ve tried everything and I don’t want her to suffer. I’ve never had to make this decision before so I’m struggling. Only reason I think she’s done ok the past 3 days is because of banamine and I know she can’t live on that forever 😔


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

It is never easy to make that decision even when we know it's right to do. I'm sorry she's not recovering. You will do what is best to prevent her suffering and you have the support if this forum no matter that decision. ((Hugs))


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

One last thought is check her close for ticks. I know it's a last ditch effort but worth a look. Check inside ears as well.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> One last thought is check her close for ticks. I know it's a last ditch effort but worth a look. Check inside ears as well.


Would ivermectin help with flees, ticks or mites?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes, but she's is so young. I hate using ivomec product in kids under 6 months old. , injectable ivomec will work for all the above, but is a painful shot if you're not sure. Some have success with ivomec pour on. Ticks that cause neurological issues should be able to be seen. Unless super deep in her ear. Might have the vet check with a scope if there is a chance she has a tick before treatment.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh i am so sorry she is not doing any better for you. I really can not tell you how much. You are being the best goat mom. 
Happybleats what about MW do you think? I honestly have no idea but thought about that with you mentioning ticks.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice given, sorry she isn’t improving.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Shes so young when this all began. According to research, clinical signs can start 45 to 53 days after exposure. So im not thinking MW.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

@Mshaw how is your baby doing today? You guys have been on my mind today


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How are things?


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

She is still with us. Today is my first day seeing how she does with no banamine. She really doesn’t like to put to much weight on her back legs especially her right one even with banamine. I am really struggling to decide if I should keep her going or if she’s in too much pain and to put her down. I’ve noticed this morning a little more teeth grinding than the past few days. Even so she still is wandering around when I take her outside trying to find stuff to eat. Her temp is normal. 102.5. Her last dose of banamine was yesterday morning. I was giving her 1/10 of a cc every morning.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I understand that dilemma. Grinding of teeth is a sign of pain. I'm sorry she's not seeming to improve. She can't live on banamine. Meloxicam may not be enough. Without knowing what is going on its hard to know what to try next. 😕 but you are giving her the best chance and you will know if it's just too much for her. Definitely don't want her to suffer. 

((Hugs))


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.

If she is trying and walking/limping around, eating, drinking.
She might be a fighter.

If she lays around and doesn’t try,
she is saying it is time to let her go.

It is always a tough decision to
make, use your best judgement.


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## Mshaw (Oct 2, 2021)

happybleats said:


> I understand that dilemma. Grinding of teeth is a sign of pain. I'm sorry she's not seeming to improve. She can't live on banamine. Meloxicam may not be enough. Without knowing what is going on its hard to know what to try next. 😕 but you are giving her the best chance and you will know if it's just too much for her. Definitely don't want her to suffer.
> 
> ((Hugs))


Yeah I just spoke with my husband and we decided to have her put down today or tomorrow. The longer the days goes on the less she wants to get up and move. Soon as he can get home and drive me to the vet because I know I won’t be able to drive home after 😔 I think she’s fought long enough. She hasn’t been herself for awhile. Thank you everyone for your efforts in helping me with baby Cash. I have learned so much from this whole experience. I will miss our cuddles on the couch and her constantly trying to chew my hair but I’m grateful she won’t be in pain anymore. 💔 here are some good pics of her. She helped me pass out candy on Halloween and the kids loved her.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Even doing what is best can still hurt!! ((Hugs))


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Very sorry to hear she never fully improved. As much as I hate making those tough decisions, I know it's for the best no matter how hard it is. She was beautiful. She was also very lucky to have you as her mom - there was nothing more you could have done. Again, I'm so sorry you had to make that hard call. At least she was very well loved and taken care of while with you. Sending lots of virtual hugs! 🌹 💐🌹


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Cutie pie! Sorry you have to make such a tough decision.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh I was really hoping she was doing better for you. This is the hardest part of having animals  and I am so very sorry you have to go threw it.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry, but you know what was the best for the little one.


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