# Castration death



## Chicknmomma (Sep 15, 2015)

Hi, I took 2 healthy bucklings that were almost 5 months old to the vet today to be castrated (cutting method). The procedure was quick and straightforward, and the vet is a great livestock vet who has done thousands.

3 hours later, one of the babies died. This was my first experience with this method (last year I banded them). I was worried about them both after - neither wanted to walk, but the one seemed worse and laid his head down. Any insight to what might have happened internally? Or too much stress? (Yes, I feel awful.)


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Oh I'm so sorry! Make sure to call the vet and tell him what happened. He may want to do a necropsy. I've had several of my goats castrated surgically and my vet was emphatic that the blood vessels must be sutured shut. Some vets just crimp them like they do with horses and dogs and only suture the outer skin. I know one person whose goat bled out after castration surgery and it sounds very similar to your situation. My vet stated strongly that crimps are often not enough for the much larger blood vessels of goats (and donkeys). Find out if your vet stitched the blood vessels shut.

Also, were your goats anesthetized? Goats can sometimes have adverse reactions to anesthesia, although I would have expected him to never have woken up at all--not come out of it and then die. However, I did have one goat that had a hard time after coming out of anesthesia and couldn't swallow his saliva for hours afterwards. Is it possible your goat choked on cud and quietly died of asphyxiation? Normally, choking to death would be obvious, but if he was dopey from the anesthetic he might not struggle against a blocked windpipe like you'd expect. I hope your vet will help you figure out what happened and maybe he can learn something from this. After trying both methods, I've decided that banding is much safer and easier on the goats than surgery. Bigger goats can still be banded with a Callicrate bander.


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## Chicknmomma (Sep 15, 2015)

Thank you for your help! I observed the procedure because I held the goats while he did it - it was the one where he cuts an opening at the bottom and pulls the testes out. It was super quick and no sutures. Each goat only dripped a few drops of blood. They didn't do anesthesia. If they bleed out, is it ever internally?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sorry you lost him. I would take him back to the vet for a necropsy.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

That's the same procedure that was done on my friend's goat that bled out. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure the blood pooled in the abdomen out of sight, which is why it wasn't noticed until too late.


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

So sorry to read about your loss. I band all my guys as it is faster and easier. I have never had them have any problems.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Ugh so so sorry


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## Chicknmomma (Sep 15, 2015)

The 2nd goat died this morning, so 17 hours after the procedure. I emailed to let the vet office know the details. Thanks for your responses. I'm clearly not going to have this done ever again.


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## Chicknmomma (Sep 15, 2015)

The vet is a 40 miles away each way, so I will bring them in only if the vet asks me to. The boys were born here as I milk for my family. I hate that the poor things were miserable before they died.


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## billiejw89 (May 7, 2014)

Oh no, I'm so sorry. How devastating. I hope you can get some answers.


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

Oh how sad. I am learning from this. My sincerest condolences.

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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Do you think, if you don't take them for a necropsy, you might do a kind of at home necropsy yourself? I would be determined to find out the cause and would definitely check to see if there was internal bleeding. I am so very sorry you lost both boys.


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## Chicknmomma (Sep 15, 2015)

The vet responded that they think it must have been from too much stress, perhaps from a worm load, that caused them not to be able to handle the procedure. I agree that stress of some sort was likely the huge main factor.

I thought about checking the abdomen for blood just to rule it completely out, but my children are stuck to me like glue.

I intended to band them, but at 4.5 months, had accidentally waited too long. Next year I will make sure to do it at 12 weeks. Thanks for everyone's replies!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so very sorry. 

Nothing to deaden the area and no slight sedation will put a lot of needless stress on them. It is truly sad. 
I wouldn't rule out internal bleeding either.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sorry you lost both.


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

I'm so sorry you lost them. 

We had our two bucklings castrated that way (cut and pull out the testes) at about 2 months old. Our vet did a farm call and he gave them both a shot to numb the area, so they didn't have much stress about the whole thing. Plus, minutes after they were done they had their mamas to console them.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Wow, I'm so sorry. Doing that procedure without pain medication sounds horrible. At five months the testes are a pretty major organ. If you ever have to castrate an older buck again, ask your vet if he can use a Callicrate bander or a burdizzo, and make sure they get some banamine before the procedure. It will still be painful, but banamine takes the edge off. Once again, I'm really sorry this happened. I hope the vet will give you a refund because two deaths is unacceptable in my opinion.


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

Damfino said:


> Wow, I'm so sorry. Doing that procedure without pain medication sounds horrible. At five months the testes are a pretty major organ. If you ever have to castrate an older buck again, ask your vet if he can use a Callicrate bander or a burdizzo, and make sure they get some banamine before the procedure. It will still be painful, but banamine takes the edge off. Once again, I'm really sorry this happened. I hope the vet will give you a refund because two deaths is unacceptable in my opinion.


I just went from sad to p.o.ed. You would think a vet would know not do a proceedure if the worm load or stress factor could result in those babies death. 
Ok. Now Im back to sad.

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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

I know all we say or even can think of to say, can't possibly make the sadness go away, & your kids as well...aww

Goats are high energy and high stress, they are just a challenge all the way around! 

Honestly, it seems if the vet doesn't know your animals or goats-many don't know goats,... I would not seek their services.

We have two vets now and I will call both at times for advice on more minor issues and often they have different suggestions for the same issue-some radically different and wrong in our opinions! But, even in saying that we try to do what's best for the situation based on what we learn,..but things don't always go correctly.

Once we had a vet come to us and castrated 9 kids who were about that age. All done in less than ten minutes and no bleeding no after affects at all! It was simply amazing. Lucky maybe, no drugs before or after! It still amazes me and I usually pr fee this vet. His coming to us was awesome and shockingly was less than what an office visit would typically be for even a cat check up-much less actually! 

Gee, as I type this and think back, it is almost too good to be true!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@Chicknmomma I am so so sorry. As stated above, 2 deaths out of 2 treatments is not acceptable. Even I, a lowly goat owner, only lose 1 twin out of the pair on occasion...

Unfortunately, without a necropsy, their is no way to assign this to the castration. So I don't believe your vet will ever ask you to bring them in.

Also unfortunately, without a necropsy, neither you, nor your vet, will learn from this.

Also unfortunately, you have to pay the vet for a necropsy that the vet caused.

Also unfortunately, the advice given above, to only take your goats to goat knowledgeable vets, isn't an answer for many of us. As much as we learn from each other and the amazing people here, we can't do without vets.

Everytime I meet a young person who says he/she is going to be a veterinarian, I say, consider specializing in goats. They are a growing market, and too few know about their needs, or will even see them. I'll emphasize that goat producers will travel to see someone who knows their livestock's needs.

I hear you on the distance to your vet. It is about the same as to my vets, and they don't specialize in goats. But that is just what it is. In some ways I know more than they.

But I'm really lucky, because they'll listen to me, and they'll give me the drugs I need (like Banamine) But if our ignorances coincide and a death results, then we both want to learn and fix what happened for the sake of future animals.

I'm so sorry, as I said. It does not sound like the vet you have available knew what you needed him to know. Educate yourself by spending needed time here going through archives, keep a relationship going with the best vet you can find (It may be this same vet, I don't know) and you'll come out a winner for your future herd.

Sometimes we just don't have the option to only go to goat knowledgeable vets and we have to gain needed knowledge ourselves and cultivate the vet we do have.

Hang in there. You'll make these deaths count, because you are going to learn, even if your vet won't... and that is awesome.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I forgot to say, when I first got started in goats, Decades Ago, the breeder I bought from used the snip the bottom, pull testicle, pull testicle, give a shot of penicillin method. But that was done young, really young, like at the same age as disbudding young. No knowledge of the dangers of UC, probably because adult wethers weren't a thing in that world.

The more we know, the more we know we don't know... Hang in there. You have more accessible knowledge in your fingertips than I had in an entire public library. Yes, we had libraries then....

You are going to come through this sadness.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You are right, not all vets know goats.
It is sad, because we do put all faith in them, thinking they must know something. But of course we sometimes just won't know until something horrible such as this happens. It isn't your fault, you didn't know the vet wasn't going to do it right. Two goats died, a big loss.  Don't blame yourself, just try to remember to band them when they are young and old enough to do so. 
Again, I am so very sorry.


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## DonnaBelle66 (Mar 4, 2013)

I know that the longer you wait to have a buckling castrated by whatever method is better. Having said that, when you do have it done several factors come into play. If the goat is older, and the weather is cool or cold and you have no flies, it can be done surgically. If the weather is warm, flies are present, it is best to band. The surgical method is more humane, less pain for the goat when pain medication is administered and given to owner for followup pain control. However, banding is also painful, especially for the first few days. But pain medication can be given then too. Castrating a buckling is a tricky thing. You don't want to do it too young as it causes problems if they are fed too much grain. Wethers really only need good hay, fresh water and minerals.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Am so sorry to hear this  That method is good for cows and sheep but not goats. The burdizzo imo is the best way if to old to band.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

Having worked in a medical office before, that wording "the stress/worms was too much" sounds like a translation of "Oops, maybe I did mess up, but I can't afford to lose the money/client/get sued, so I will state something that could be true, and to make it look like I'm right and still know what I'm talking about." Human doctors are much more paranoid about getting sued (for good reason), but still, from my cynical perspective, it sounds like he/she realizes that they did something wrong (might not know what they did wrong, but 2 out of 2 in a routine procedure is HUGE) and are trying to save face. He/she might even be trying to assure themselves. Castrating is surgery, but it is such a common and routine one that things should not go that far wrong. I'm so sorry you lost your goats.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

very sorry to read this..sounds like the vet took the low road to blame stress and worms..any vet worth their salt you make sure the goat was healthy enough for surgery and the method was barbaric and ..Im very sorry you and they went through this. we band here and often hear folks say its cruel..but its effective...we always have banamine handy if they need it...some do some dont..again, Im very sorry for your loss


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Did you happen to see how he cut the cords? A straight cut (even like cutting a fresh birth cord with scissors can result in bleeding out. For cords the knife needs to be at about a 90 degree angle and you more or less shave the cord.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The cut was at the bottom of the scrotal sack. The testicles were pulled, not cut. At least that is how I interpreted what the OP said happened.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Wow, very sorry for your losses. Sounds like something went wrong. Maybe internal bleeding. I wouldn't think losing both all of a sudden like that would happen from just stress alone. I suppose they could have gone into shock? Are you sure the vet didn't give them some sort of medication that did something? This sounds very strange to me. I could see maybe one having an issue, but having both die so soon after the procedure. Something went wrong. I would not be happy with that vet. 

Also wanted to mention that if you can get the testicles through the castrater band, you can band at any age. The older they get the harder it is on then, but I've banded adult bucks with no problems at all. I've banded hundreds of buck kids as well and not one has had any sort of issue. I really feel it's one of, if not the safest method out there. 

Again, very sorry for your losses. If you find anything out, let us know.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

I am so sorry for your losses! Just heartbreaking to read about! At the very least, the vet should refund your money. Otherwise you can give him a bad Yelp review maybe?


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## O'Boy Goats (Nov 1, 2015)

I'm so sorry to hear about this. I had an experience with this method. When I went to get two more young goats, the lady had done this method herself to both of the boys right there in the barnyard with a pair of scissors and a bottle of iodine. It was appalling to me. (no offense to anyone who uses the castration method--it was this situation and how it was done in particular that was very bad) I was glad to just get the kids in the car and get them to their new home with us. Arturo (that's him in my profile picture) was very small and delicate. I don't think the woman was truthful about his age and after it was all said and done and we had our vet see him, I believe he was not 8 weeks old and very small like the woman said, but more like 4 or 5 weeks old at the time. I thought he was going to die that night. I sat up most of the night with them. I had both in a large crate with blankets inside in my bedroom and I laid on the floor next to them. Armando was clearly not feeling well and needed to rest but was doing alright. Arturo went downhill fast. Within 4 or 5 hours, he couldn't even hold up his head and somewhere around 3 am, I didn't know if he was even breathing. I did everything I knew to do to bring him around but also let him rest and when I finally fell asleep, I just knew he would be gone in the morning. I woke to find him trying to move and to hold his head up a little and I was so thankful he was still there. We kept them in the house for a week just letting them heal. I will never do this again. Not ever. The banding method takes more time, but I feel that it's less traumatic and less risky. Again, I'm so sorry you lost the two boys.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Sorry to hear that you lost your goat. Vets around here don't really like to work on goats. I just use the band method and so far no issues. However I would suggest that the earlier you band the better. Or should I say the younger the kid the better as long as you are sure to get both testicles.


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## thaddeusss (Jan 15, 2013)

That's terrible. A few years ago we had a vet kill one of our goats with pain meds after he broke a leg. He'd been fine except swelling at the site, after she gave him the meds he got really lethargic and wouldn't eat, slowly recovered. Took him in again to see why he seemed ill and she gave him another shot - he went rapidly downhill immediately after and died right after we got home. Pretty frustrating. I've seen goats recover completely from a leg that was not only broken but literally dangling snapped in half. They're tough. 

That said, I quit banding when an old shepherd taught me to pull the testes out. Slice off the tip of the scrotum with a razor, push the scrotum back and pull out the testes one at a time with a quick but consistent pull. Then I use a quick dab of an herb powder blend that is antibacterial and styptic. 
I was taugh to use my teeth to pull them out, which I do, but I know others use their hands and it still works fine.

Hurts them like hell for a second but by the next day they're just like new again and they're totally healed in a week or less. Seems much less painful and complication prone than banding, and I could never get a burdizzo to work right. 

I always wait until 8 weeks minimum but I have done it at 8 months with no problems. It is harder on them as they get older but not so much as to be dangerous IMO. 

OTOH, I love to eat the 'oysters', which is a side benefit of pulling them vs other methods. And, if I wait til they're older, they're bigger.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The method you describe is EXACTLY the method that killed those goats. Except for the teeth part.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

My father was a vet and he taught me to cut the scrotum as has been described above
pull one testicle out. take two forceps attach one forceps to the cord near the body of the goat and the other forceps attach near the testicle. then while holding the lower forceps. he put his finger through the finger loop of the forceps that was attached near the testicle and rotate the forceps until the testicle cord would break. he would then repeat the procedure with the other testicle. By twisting the cord you would crimp the blood vessels and stop the bleeding. I have castrated horses bulls rams hogs and I prefer the bands


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## peggy (Aug 11, 2010)

I am so very sorry you lost your boys. Now I am worried cause I am getting my 6 year old buck surgically castrated in a couple weeks. I was going to band him with the calicrate bander but thought that he would be in too much pain for too long considering how much tissue has to go numb. His testicles are huge. So I decided to get my vet to surgically castrate him and get it over with. I know that she has castrated adult bucks before with success so I trust she knows what she is doing but I am still terribly worried.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Here's my thought. No need to worry, simply ask about the procedure. Your vet will be glad to tell you what he/she will be doing. If you see anything (in the explanation) that causes you concern, please just ask. A buck that old, if testicles are to be removed, should have stitches to stop the bleeding. Feel free to ask about that. Same with general anesthesia. You have the right to know that is the intention, you have the right to know what measures they'll take to avoid the problems. AND you have the right to wrinkle your brow.

If you don't like the answers, you have the right to say, "I need to research this more." After all, this is not a life-saving operation. No buck I know of has died from NOT being castrated!!!!

I'm glad you have confidence in your vet. That speaks well of him/her.

My vet office has never made me feel weird for asking or suggesting. We've made bad decisions, but not because I was bullied into anything.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Great advise! 

Not sure if this has been stated or asked, but does the vet come by you, or do you go to the vet? 

I ask, as an animal is likely more comfortable in its own environment-just like us, we would rather be at home?....


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

We bought a burdizzo - a good quality one from Premier sheep supply. I would never band or surgically castrate after using this. They scream of course when you do it but it is over - no hunched up pain like banding, no wound to infect. I hold the kid and my husband does the deed. I think the tool was around 100. and well worth it.


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## greenbtree (Oct 9, 2016)

I just recently got my first goats. I have one male that I wanted neutered, so after research I decided on the Burdizzo method. Luckily a vet a half an hour away has one and experience using it. Even with that method the vet gave him a numbing shot before the proceedure. My male (Goatie McGoatface) was a bit sore (walking just a little stiffly) for a day or two, but had no other issues. If I was going to have males to neuter on a regular basis, I would definitely buy a Burdizzo. As it was, the vet charged me $14.65, and that included the shot.


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## Oreosmom (Nov 19, 2016)

So sorry for your lost. I'd of gone ballistic on any vet if my goat had died after that. That's just me. When I was young Had a bird die on me just several hours after purchasing. Didn't want to refund or replace.. I went around the store and outside telling the other customers they had sick animals and didn't care. Sometimes people need to be taught to care and take responsibility for their actions. I would of frozen one of the goats if possible and take it in later. Also would of demanded a refund. But that's just me.


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