# 10 day old buckling with swollen front knee :(



## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Went out to feed tonight and found my baby boy limping, his front left knee was pretty swollen, not sure what happened,..
Any suggestions on what I should do?


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Sorry for the fuzzy/ bad pics,. It's dark here and I don't have very good lights in their pen.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Does it feel broken? I would start with a warm compress. Poor baby!


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

It didn't feel broken to me, but I don't know much.
It just looked swollen.
In the pictures it looks twisted but it isn't really, he was sort of holding it up in the photo of him standing.
I'm wondering if he may have caught it in the fence and twisted it somehow?
That's the only explanation I can come up with,.
He's bounding around happy as can be on the three legs that work, so I don't think he's in a whole lot of pain, he did cry when we were feeling his knee to check if it was just swollen or what.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Watch his temp, keep a close eye, and have a vet fund ready. If this is navel/joint ill you will have a fight on your hands to save him. If he shows any other symptom, fever, another swelling, drainage from his cord, anything, take him in. 
Not trying to scare you. Just be aware of this disease so that you can be proactive. I really hope he just twisted it.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Does he have a temperature? You need to check. Is it just one knee 
that is swollen? Hocks OK? Is he growing *real* fast?


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

It is just the one knee that is swollen.
Im not sure I have a thermometer on hand, I will try to pick one up tomorrow.
And will check on him again in the morning


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Oh, and he seems to be growing at the same rate as my doeling who was born the same day as him.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

I have seen this in meat goats. Known of mine have ever had it, but if he isn't acting sick and no temp and it doesn't feel hot to the touch, I think he has adema on his knee. I heard of a buckling at the Nationals that showed and had this, and I had someone contact me this summer with pictures of their buckling at around 6 months of age that had this. It eventually reabsorbs, but if it because too painful or too swollen I guess the vet can drain it. 
Hope that is all it is. For some reason I have only heard of it with the males and all were Boer. There is a big name for it, but I can't remember what they called it.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

I'm starting to think he may have just twisted it,
Went out and feel it today, it's not hot to the touch and he seems to be putting a bit more weight on it.
I think the swelling may have gone down a bit looking at the pictures I took, but can't really be sure.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

The word we are searching for is "epiphysitis".
I think your little buck is going to be OK. (knocking on wood)


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Thanks Tenacross 
Ill look into that when I get a chance.
I also looked into the naval illness and will be watching for any more symptoms for that.
I sure hope he's getting better 
Thank you!


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

So the swelling doesn't seem to have gone down much in the past two days, his knee isn't hot. It's not hard at all, feels like it is just full of liquid.
Should we try to drain it?
Or are there any other suggestions as what else it might be?
I Don't think it's the navel disease because all his other joints seem fine. And he's not growing too quickly.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

KymberLeAnn said:


> So the swelling doesn't seem to have gone down much in the past two days, his knee isn't hot. It's not hard at all, feels like it is just full of liquid.
> Should we try to drain it?
> Or are there any other suggestions as what else it might be?
> I Don't think it's the navel disease because all his other joints seem fine. And he's not growing too quickly.


 No. Do not drain it. It'll go away in time. 
And probably every day he is still alive is further proof it's not navel ill. 
Does he limp bad?


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Alright,
Some days he looks like he's limping worse than others.
One day he'll walk on it like it's just sensitive, and the next he won't put it down on the ground at all.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

KymberLeAnn said:


> Alright,
> Some days he looks like he's limping worse than others.
> One day he'll walk on it like it's just sensitive, and the next he won't put it down on the ground at all.


 I still think he's going to get over it. I'm not a vet.
If he was mine, I'd be tempted to give him a weight appropriate dosage
of banamine once a day for awhile. Then back off to every other day
for a little while longer. To see if that helps. I don't know what a vet
would say about that. Please don't stick a needle in it though.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Alright, thank you! 
I'll see if we have any betadine around, if we do, I'll give that a try.
If not, I think I'll just leave it and see what happens


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

KymberLeAnn said:


> Alright, thank you!
> I'll see if we have any betadine around, if we do, I'll give that a try.
> If not, I think I'll just leave it and see what happens


 No, not betadine. That's an iodine based disenfectent.
Banamine. It's a nonsteroidal anti inflamatory drug. to be injected
to goats IM. Only 1cc/100lbs. So for a little guy .15 of a cc.
You would need an insulin syringe and like a 20-22 gauge needle.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Oops, sorry.
Read that wrong 
Thanks for the correction & dosage


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I wonder if Cortizone cream would help get some of the fluid moving?


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

goathiker said:


> I wonder if Cortizone cream would help get some of the fluid moving?


Maybe mix a little DMSO in with it?


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Hmm, well if we know it won't hurt him I could definitely give that one a try,..
I know we have DMSO,..


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Just tuning in on this post . Hope your baby gets well soon 
Poor thing , looks so sad ...
He does have a great momma taking care of him though


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I use DMSO for congested udders so I know that won't hurt him. Cortizone cream is really gentle and they inject cortizone into joints.

I found this
Maibach and Feldmann67 studied the percutaneous penetration of hydrocortisone and testosterone in DMSO. The authors concluded that there was a threefold increase in dermal penetration by these steroids when they were dissolved in DMSO.

Sulzberger and his co-workers107 evaluated the penetration of DMSO into human skin employing methylene blue, iodine, and iron dyes as visual tracers. Biopsies showed that the stratum corneum was completely stained with each tracer applied to the skin surface in DMSO. There was little or no staining below this layer. The authors concluded that DMSO carried substances rapidly and deeply into the horny layer and suggested the usefulness of DMSO as a vehicle for therapeutic agents in inflammatory dermatoses and superficial skin infections such as pyodermas.
http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/herschler.htm


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Just went outside and found my 3 month old buckling/wether in progress with the exact same thing.. I'm terrified. What do I do!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Tenacross is more knowledgable with boers and knows what this is. It normally goes away it seems. We were disscussing moving the fluid faster. Hopefully he'll come help you.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

The swelling on my buckling doesn't seem to have changed at all.
Looked but couldn't fine any cortisone cream around the house yesterday, but dad decided we should just put DMSO on it anyway.
I didn't think DMSO would do anything alone but Dad says that they used to sell it for humans claiming that it improved circulation, so it must promote some fluid movement.
I didn't see any difference in the size of the lump today, he's still sore on it. But you can see it's not unbearably sore. Just a small limp.
Let me know if you get any more info on this!
For now I'll just be watching and waiting


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

I would check it closely for puncture/bite wounds like spider bite or snake bite. Look at it to see if a boil is present.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I'd like to be an expert, but I only play one on the internet. I can tell you that
I have seen this sort of thing many times in a horse. Sometimes it is caused
by growing too fast in young colts. Some people believe it is caused by an
imbalance in the calcium phosphorus ratio. Horse vets have you put the colt
on a grass hay only diet for awhile. Also in a horse of any age, if they bang 
the heck out of their knee on something, they will get what we call a "capped
knee". It looks pretty much exactly like your little buck. It looks bad, but
it usually doesn't hurt them permanently. In a horse, it doesn't seem to matter
what you do, it will get better when it gets better. And they usually do.
I have read about young goats getting swollen knees in other goat groups and
the old timers there all say don't try to drain it. You are more likely to infect
the joint than you are to help the kid. It would seem unlikely it's navel ill, 
because if that is what it was, the kid would probably be dead by now if you
hadn't aggressively treated with antibiotics. If it's just a small limp at this 
point, that would be a very good sign.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

I don't see any bites, or anything like that so I'm sure it's something else. The part that confuses me the most about it is that in young colts their explanation is improper diet. But, he's only two weeks old so his diet has been his moms milk.
She has minerals and grass hay, and I feed them whole oats, I plan on getting alfalfa soon, but we have run out for the time being,..
They were on alfalfa last month.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I saw an article once about edema on the knees in boers that had something to do with the Lymph Node and it was something that they out grow. For the life of me, I can't find the cord to my database computer. I'll get back after I clean my house tomorrow.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Thanks goathiker, I tried looking that up a but couldn't find much.
Today when I went out to check on him I noticed that the swelling seems to have moved up to just above his knee and has changed into a rounder shape on the inside of his leg. I couldn't get any photos, but will try again this evening.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Uh Oh 
To feed today and the welt has burst! 
All my does tested CL and CAE negative a month before they were bred.
What else could it be?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It could be Staff infection. There's no lymph node in the knee and CL abcesses almost never start before a goat is 6 months old. What does the pus look and smell like?


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

There wasn't much puss coming out that I could see. I snapped a few photos, I think he has twice the energy now though, so it was hard to get him to hold still long enough to get any good ones.
The one with the flash makes it look quite a bit whiter than what I saw.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Oh, and I did not notice a smell.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Before it burst I was feeling it every day, it felt like inside was VERY watery. Didn't feel thick like there would be puss,.. More like when you get a blister and it feels like water right below the skin.
Yesterday it was about the size and shape of a ping-pong ball. Very round.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I think he just has an infection on that knee. CL pus is very thick, like cottage cheese, and staff normally stinks but, not always until it starts killing blood cells. CL abcesses go very hard and hairless before they burst. I wpuld flush it with Saline to get anything out that you can and use blue coat over it.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Okay, thank you! 
Iodine or betadine would work instead of the bluekote right?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Betadine would be fine. I wouldn't use Iodine in case joint material is exposed. It's pretty harsh.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Maybe he got a splinter in there or something. Since it burst, we can now call it an abscess. That's not what I was thinking it was before. An abscess is natures way of getting rid of something. If this buck kid hasn't been on antibiotics, it might be time. Is he still sore? Or is he better since it broke? If he was mine, I would assume it is *not* CL. I'm curious what others say, but I think I would put him on some penicillin. Actually, I would call my vet and ask him what he thought I should try and then I'd probably give him penicillin anyway.


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Yeah, I think probably a splinter too, their pen is entirely wood so that would be a possibility. I sort of panicked yesterday when I saw it had burst and quarantined him and his momma. Now that I'm calmed down I realize it couldn't be CL, that's just the first thing that comes to mind when I think abscesses. I will try my best to clean it out and have my dad help me give him a shot of LA 200.
He doesn't seem to be in any pain any more, he just gets annoyed when I keep grabbing at his legs. I am very relieved that this wasn't anything worse. I've had too many issues with the animals lately.
Oh, and on a side note, my dog Sascha had a lump on her face, right on the lower jaw line, we assumed that was from a splinter and have been giving her antibiotics for it. It seemed to have opened a bit yesterday too. But she cries like a baby if I even try to look at it. (She's just very vocal, and makes a huge deal out of every wound she gets)
I should have thought that Felix may have had the same problem, not sure why I didn't connect the two .
Last night I was home alone, but I will have help on getting everyone cleaned up today (thank goodness!)
Hopefully this is the last of injuries around here for awhile!
Oh, and another side note, I finally named the kids!
The buckling is Felix, and my doeling is Twix


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## KymberLeAnn (Sep 16, 2012)

Update on Felix:
He's doing great, quite shy compared to his half sister who's a day older than him but I'm quite happy with the way he's turning out.
I hope to sell him soon and get a wether I can use for our county fair.
I would use Felix, but he's a month too old >.<
Really wishing I would have kept buck away from his momma for one more month! Then I wouldn't have to sell this little guy till August!
I'll be sad to see him go.


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## thomcarol (Feb 3, 2012)

He's a cutie. Glad to hear that he is doing good.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Ha. Very cool.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Oh he is adorable ! I would love to have him , but I can't right now.
I hope he gets a great home


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

He seems to be acting OK, from the photo when nursing.

Here is a link that explains the symptoms of naval/ joint ill. Which I don't think this is what we have here.. But watch him anyway.

http://www.thecattlesite.com/diseaseinfo/216/joint-ill-navel-ill


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