# Kidding Assistance & Complications Stories Thread (for educational purposes!)



## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

What are some of your complicated kidding stories? Births needing assistance, complications, etc. and how you learned from it, I want to hear about the worst of it if you are comfortable sharing!

:run:


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Well..what about some of your stories? I would be interested in hearing yours too!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

No no. All kiddings go great. There's nothing that ever goes wrong! Nothing can possibly go wrong! Right, right? :ahh::lolgoat:


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Moers kiko boars said:


> Well..what about some of your stories? I would be interested in hearing yours too!


Wether lady here.

But in the kiddings I have assisted with for friends, most have gone smoothly. Worst was weak kids and a shocky doe, I learned after that to never be without cayenne during kiddings!!


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## Noisy Bottle Babies (Oct 7, 2019)

Oh where can I start, first year with more than 2 does kidding we had problems, ok first doe was my moms dapple sierra she had twins in her well low and behold we came back from shopping one day I went inside and came back out to notice a huge dapple boy sticking out of her had to pull him he was a breech and we lost him and then next was our 2nd little boy he was breech as well so I had to pull him but she didn't even take him. 2nd story I was on kidding duty for 2 days she was due the 8th and went the 10th she was pushing for 40 minutes with no progress at all so I had to lube up and put fingers in and then my hand I felt the nose but no legs, we had a pro goat farmer who has been doing this for 12 years on the phone leading me he said that when their like that most the time they don't survive well I tried and had my hand almost elbow deep in the doe trying to find that kids legs at that point I had to get her head out before she suffocated so I pulled on her head and made the doe push when I was pulling finally got the head out and the bag had burst open letting her breath, ok now time to get back into her I had my hands back in and finally found her one leg I pulled on that then switched around and found the other then pulled, the doe at that point had given up on pushing so I had to pull her out and then baby #2 was in there but mom was tired and had no energy to push anymore so had to pull her as well but lost her 2 weeks later as she got an umbilical infection and vet wouldn't give medicine for it. Doe also didn't pass placenta until 5 days later until we had gave her the medicine for it forgot the name of it but the same farmer that helped me through the birth had given me the medicine. Ok thats my horror story for now until this next kidding season.


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## Noisy Bottle Babies (Oct 7, 2019)

mind you these were boer does


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## AndersonRanch (Oct 18, 2020)

Ugh I get sick to my stomach even now over my worst kiddings and it’s nothing I find I’m willing to share for the sake of sharing. But what did I learn? Crap happens no matter how many years you have under your belt or how prepared you think you are.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

AndersonRanch said:


> Ugh I get sick to my stomach even now over my worst kiddings and it's nothing I find I'm willing to share for the sake of sharing. But what did I learn? Crap happens no matter how many years you have under your belt or how prepared you think you are.


Understood.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I have delivered kids from my herd and others who were breech, one leg coming, no legs coming, triplet all coming at once facing different directions, tangled kids and huge kids. All turned out well except one. 
I took my friends goats in while she battled cancer. Wanda went into labor. Kid presented correct. Two front hooves and a nose. I kept watch but I try not to intervene if I don't need to. With each push babies head slipped back further and further. I didnt catch it in time and babies head was folded all the way back. I tried and tried to get the head forward to no end. The baby died and we had to get him out. Both my daughters pulled the babies legs and I pulls mom. Mama screaming..me and my girls crying. Baby delivered almost folded in half. Wanda then quickly delivered a second buck, got up and began taking care of him. My girls and I sat and cried. It was very dramatic. What I learned: have a lamb puller, keep watch on babies head until its out, if head is back and you can't right it, .you can push baby back in and pull breech. No matter the end result, we learn. Wanda was amazing goat. She went in to kid again and again with no problems and I have a lamb puller!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Have had quite a few - that if I wasn't there it would have been horrible for the doe and kids. Best lesson ever is to be present for the birth even if your doe had no problems in the past. Prior post is dead on - crap happens. All we can do is be prepared as possible.


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

Ok. This is not a goat kidding but a fellow deer kidding. My bottle baby was covered by the male about two years ago. Something we never allow because she is a terrible mother. She became pregnant and the day before her actual due date started displaying contractions. We followed her only to find pieces of a baby scattered all over the place. When she finally lie down to birth she gave birth to an inside out siamese twin females. I was sick to my stomach. Needless to say she had to be euthenazed due to complications. We were very traumatized


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

OK here it goes.

Head back kids.

I had a few but got all of them out, some died, some saved.

On one doe, she had a 180 degree uterine tear low, when I reached in to feel if there were anymore kids, I felt her bladder through the tear. 
But at the time, didn't know what in the world it was. 
Never felt anything like that in my life.
I called a vet, he said just pull it out. mg:
I told him, I want you to come out and tell me what this is. 
He showed up and verified it was her bladder and guided me on what to do, gave her a shot of something, antibiotics, banamine.
Said, we won't give up, she is acting OK and not bleeding out. Try to keep infection and pain at bay. He said it is always grim with large tears and for me to not expect a lot of time with her. She lived for 2 weeks incredibly, more time than if I did nothing. 

She loved her buck kid, which was the one with is head back, dearly.
She was so loving with him and he loved her too. So the extra time she had with him was blessed. 

It was so devastating, when she got to the stage, she could not get up and stopped eating. 
The infection took over at that time, despite all we did. 
I knew she wouldn't last long, but it was a miracle how long, she did hold on.
The weird part is, the tear wasn't bleeding out. 
We sadly put her down and gave him to a dear friend to care for him. 



I had a doe kid with no issues or helping, then found her the next morning dead in there stall. 
Mystery, unless she had a tear. 
There was no infection.

It definitely hurts when we loose them. 
:imok:


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> OK here it goes.
> 
> Head back kids.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry.

What an interesting story, I didn't know a tear all the way to the bladder was possible!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Either did I, but it was a first.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Always have clean strings or a lamb puller. (which I still can't use!) I had a doe present with 2 feet and a head, unfortunately, they all belonged to 3 different kids. I kept pushing parts in and trying to fish the correct legs and head out. Finally got baling twine and (orange, blue and sissal) I dipped in alcohol then tied each one to each foot I found. Finally got the first kid out, head bent all the way back over the back. It lived! 2nd was ok and the last a pain, unfortunately, it was dead and trying to fish limp head and feet in the right direction to pull was a challenge. Finally got it out. 

Naturally, this always happens in the middle of the night. You have no friends at that time. All the "call me if a problem, I'll help" doesn't refer to night trouble! 

Doe was pretty sore for a few day, but did a good job with her 2 remaining kids. Prep H helped to keep the external swelling down. 

My absolute worst is too graphic and upsetting, but, trust your gut, if you think your doe is in peril, get that kid out. Even inexperienced people somewhat know their animals. If something is off, better to seek help saving her than burying her.


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## KJgoats (Oct 20, 2020)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Wether lady here.
> 
> But in the kiddings I have assisted with for friends, most have gone smoothly. Worst was weak kids and a shocky doe, I learned after that to never be without cayenne during kiddings!!


I am relatively new to goat kidings, what is the cayenne for?


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## ALBoerGoats (Dec 27, 2015)

Probably all 3 c-sections. 

Lucy was the first one last year. She was in labor but it seemed to stall. I checked and she was fully dilated but all I could feel is what felt like the round cotyledons from the placenta which obviously wasn't normal. Vet came out and palpated and knew right away it was placenta previa. No way to get baby out without a c-section. My vet has a mobile set up so we got her all prepped and put her under anesthesia and then it took 3 of us to lift her onto the table in her surgery room. She barely fit. But both her and her single doeling made it. And she accepted her right away. She just kidded again this year with huge single buckling with a little bit of help. He was 13 lbs but she did great. 

The second one was less than a week later. Lace had gotten stuck on her back at about 3.5 months pregnant and was close to dead when I found her since it was 105 outside. She survived and made it to kidding but once again her labor stalled. I went in to check and felt the same thing I did with Lucy. Vet came out and did a standing c-section that time with a local anesthetic. When we got her open the amniotic fluid came out and basically flooded half of the garage. She had polyhydramnios on top of placenta previa from a twisted uterus. Most likely from when she had gotten stuck on her back. She had triplets. 2 passed within the first couple days because they were a tad premature and despite my efforts I couldn't save them. The third one, Diamond, also almost died. She seemed to be taking her last breathes. I was just about to give her a big dose of banamine to help her pass but then decided to make one last ditch effort to save her. I gave her some Dex and an antibiotic and wrapped her up in a heating pad. Her respiration rate got down to about 5-6 per minute. I went outside and fully expected her to be gone when I came back in. To my surprise she was up and crying when I came back and she has been feisty ever since! 

And then lastly there was Magic who had hers early yesterday morning. I noticed a few days ago that she was partially dilated. I induced both her and Lucy at the same. They both presented with amber goo at about 1 am. Lucy was having strong contractions but she was not. After delivering Lucy's baby I checked Magic and found that she was only partially dilated still and there was the sac with the kid in it through the partial open cervix. I worked on manually dilating her for about an hour with little luck. I was very careful not to break that sac. Vet got out here about 3 am and palpated her. She felt the same exact thing I did and said she needed a c-section. We got her all prepped and cut her open. Got the first baby out and thats when we saw an absolutely terrible looking placenta. Some of the cotyledons were no longer attached and were falling onto the floor. They were black and almost necrotic looking. You could see the signs of infection all over it. It basically disintegrated in our hands. She thought that was the only baby but went to check for more. Found two more in there and got those pulled. Before stitching her up we had to pull some of the placenta out since it was in her way. It literally just came without resistance. Not normal at all. She said Magic had to have had an infection brewing in there for some time and that we are very lucky she made it to full term with live kids. Her cervix had most likely been open for a few weeks which is why it wouldn't dilate further. She had some green mucus discharge for about 5 weeks before so that was most likely drainage from her infection and not the mucus plug like I had thought. But luckily all 3 babies and her are doing well! She is a very good momma. 

Another delivery that was crazy was one when I was 9 months pregnant lol. Taxi, an 8 yr old doe at the time, had gone into labor but was having g issues. When I went in and checked baby was malpositioned. He had 1 leg and his head back. And I could tell by the feel of his 1 leg forward that he was huge. It took me almost an hour on the ground with my arm in there to get him repositioned. And even when he was finally positioned right I had to pull very very hard. I literally had my feet on her butt for leverage and used all my strength to pull him out. She was screaming so loud it sounded like she was dying. I was balling my eyes out but knew I had to do it. Finally got him out. I thought for sure she tore in there and just knew she would be dead soon. But somehow she made it and kidded the next year! 
I'm sure it was a sight to see a pregnant lady working so hard to deliver that baby goat lol. I was sore for weeks afterwards.


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## KJgoats (Oct 20, 2020)

Here is my doosey of a story, I apologize for the book ahead of time.
About 2 years ago in September, our girls Grace and Bella were due to have their babies. This was our first time having goat babies and we learned a lot. We knew an aproximate date that they had been bred but we weren't 100% sure when they would be due. Being first timers we looked for signs but didn't really have a good reference or idea of what to look for.
One afternoon, I was the first home from school, my parents were both drivers on bus runs and my siblings hadn't gotten off the bus yet. I went out to look for babies and saw stuff hanging out of Grace, I thought for sure she was in labor. I ran inside to call my mom and started gathering supplies we would need(protip: assemble a baby box ahead of time). My mom got home about the time I was about to head back outside. To our surprise Grace had already given birth to baby Meadow and the stuff hanging from her was her afterbirth. Baby Meadow aas perfect: she was small, had long floppy ears, had a little round ear tassel, and one round neck tassel. We happened to have a 4h family stop by and they took the only pictures we have of Meadow and her mommy. We aren't sure why but Grace's afterbirth would not detach on it's own
We dont know if it was due to birth complications while we weren't home, if it was mineral deficiency, or something else. The next day while my sister, brother, and I were at school my mom went out to check on Grace and her baby. All looked fine, but 10 minutes later she went back out and Grace was half dead laying on the ground. My mom and dad scooped Grace and Meadow into the back of our Suburban and drove to the local farm animal vet. He came out but not much could be done, she passed away there in the back of the suburban not long later of sepsis. They brought Grace and Meadow home, put grace behind the goat shed til we could get home and put Meadow in a large box inside. They are contractors for the district and were bus drivers too so they made sure that one of them arrived home before we did. I had a bad feeling sometime that day during school that something had happened but I didn't know what. When I got home my dad explained what happened, my sister and I had told my dad that there was going to be goat babies in the house. But we didn't intend for it to be like this.
That night my mom and I went out to check on Bella and found her in labor at 1am. All was going well and the baby bubble was beginning to come out. As the bubble came out what looked like an ear appeared. We quickly realized that this was not an ear, but a tail and that baby Hazel was coming breached. I bolted inside to get my dad, he and my sister went out to help while I stayed inside. They ended up calling a friend that was experienced with goats. To make a long and graphic story short my dad pulled her out, however, we had forgotten to bring a nose sucker out. My sister had never gone so fast, she ran in and back out in 30 seconds. Might I remind you that our house is 100 ft long and the nose sucker was on the other side of the house, plus our goat pen is at least that far away from our house. They were able to save baby Hazel, and soon later Bella delivered Nutmeg with no problems.
We thought our problems were over, but Bella didn't want to care for both babies. She allowed Hazel to eat but not Nutmeg. We would have bottle fed Nutmeg inside too if we didn't already have one house baby. So we made her a few bottles of milk a day with Bellas milk.
At the same time, we bottle fed Meadow inside using goat powdered milk formula. One night after a week or so of bottle feeding Meadow she started acting really bad. She was grinding her teeth, acting lethargic, started having scours, and was bleating, we thought we were going to loose her too. We called a bus driver of ours who has horses and he came over with some Probios. This helped greatly, and the next day we called out goat friend who also worked at the farm animal hospital. She prescribed an antibiotic for the scours, and recommended giving her leaves/ forage and making our own milk from whole milk, butter milk, and condensed milk because the mixed goat milk was upsetting her belly. This made night and day difference. 
After that we didn't have too many more problems, none at least that were very bad. But that was definitely a learning experience. Tips I can give are: give your pregnant goats mineral blocks to eat, supervise the birth, assemble a baby box with anything you could ever need, give the mama warm water mixed with karo syrup after birth, give the mama penicillin after her birth, if you bottle feed DO NOT use the powdered formula make your own with whole milk, butter milk, and condensed milk(you can find the recipe online), have the number of an experienced goat friend or vet, and do your research, I did a lot of research before hand but the best information you can get is from people who have felt with this before. Sorry for the book.


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## KJgoats (Oct 20, 2020)

KJgoats said:


> Here is my doosey of a story, I apologize for the book ahead of time.
> About 2 years ago in September, our girls Grace and Bella were due to have their babies. This was our first time having goat babies and we learned a lot. We knew an aproximate date that they had been bred but we weren't 100% sure when they would be due. Being first timers we looked for signs but didn't really have a good reference or idea of what to look for.
> One afternoon, I was the first home from school, my parents were both drivers on bus runs and my siblings hadn't gotten off the bus yet. I went out to look for babies and saw stuff hanging out of Grace, I thought for sure she was in labor. I ran inside to call my mom and started gathering supplies we would need(protip: assemble a baby box ahead of time). My mom got home about the time I was about to head back outside. To our surprise Grace had already given birth to baby Meadow and the stuff hanging from her was her afterbirth. Baby Meadow aas perfect: she was small, had long floppy ears, had a little round ear tassel, and one round neck tassel. We happened to have a 4h family stop by and they took the only pictures we have of Meadow and her mommy. We aren't sure why but Grace's afterbirth would not detach on it's own
> We dont know if it was due to birth complications while we weren't home, if it was mineral deficiency, or something else. The next day while my sister, brother, and I were at school my mom went out to check on Grace and her baby. All looked fine, but 10 minutes later she went back out and Grace was half dead laying on the ground. My mom and dad scooped Grace and Meadow into the back of our Suburban and drove to the local farm animal vet. He came out but not much could be done, she passed away there in the back of the suburban not long later of sepsis. They brought Grace and Meadow home, put grace behind the goat shed til we could get home and put Meadow in a large box inside. They are contractors for the district and were bus drivers too so they made sure that one of them arrived home before we did. I had a bad feeling sometime that day during school that something had happened but I didn't know what. When I got home my dad explained what happened, my sister and I had told my dad that there was going to be goat babies in the house. But we didn't intend for it to be like this.
> ...


Also breed your doe with a boy her size or smaller to prevent big babies, especially for first time girls


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## mariella (Feb 23, 2017)

Okay I have 2-3
The first one was the second/third kidding ever for me! I was new and had 2 does in labor one with a huge kid that I almost called the vet for. And the other that wasn't progressing, keeping in mind I was 14 and had never done this before, I checked her and felt a hard mass... I called my mother out to help me figure this out, She's a human midwife, She said it felt fine. It was not fine! He had been dead for a few days and was coming out horns first with no feet. My mother tried to pull him out just the way he was presenting... after nearly and hour I ended up losing my temper with her and telling her to let me do it now (I had only just worked up the courage to actually do something) I got my hand in and pushed him back, flipped his chin up so his nose was coming out right and tried to find legs but I couldtn't so I pulled. My mother took that opportunity to let me know that his head can just rip off. I got him out fine but he was full of liquid and was falling apart. I did have the vet check her and she gave mama goat some antibiotics and said she was fine.
The second still breaks my heart, My Carmel was bashed by my 2 bucks that were fighting over her when she was in heat and they broke her hip and part of her pelvis. She healed well but couldn't use the leg much anymore and for some reason we didn't think they had bred her. We found out at around 4 months justation that she was in fact pregnant. We knew her hip was broken but we didn't know her pelvis was so we thought she could still kid and care for her baby/babies but on the day she went into labor we found out that her pelvis was broken and pocking into her vigina. We knew there was a chance she couldn't kid and we had decided to put her down and get the kids out. I was a crying mess but we managed to save both of her babies.
The third isn't nearly as bad but it was the same doe as the first story. She had a huge buckling and wasn't progressing on the second kid (She was refucing to push even though he came quickly and with help) I went in and found a neck... Yep she was head back and feet tucked. I really didn't have any issues getting her out but it was gut wrenching as it was happening.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

KJgoats said:


> I am relatively new to goat kidings, what is the cayenne for?


Bleeding, shock, energy, weak kids.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:imsorry: I know some kidding issues are so horrible and hard to talk about.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> :imsorry: I know some kidding issues are so horrible and hard to talk about.


 Very, but any lessons that can help others I am so grateful to have shared.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> What are some of your worst kidding stories? Births needing assistance, complications, etc. and how you learned from it, I want to hear about the worst of it!
> 
> :run:


I am just trying to wrap my head around WHY you want people to relive some of the worst moments they have had with their livestock. It is bad enough the first and hundredth time you run through it in your mind. But to dredge it all up again by this post.... i am just not understanding why you would consider wanting to do this to others.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Not a single person has to share if they aren’t interested.

Perhaps I named this thread wrong, but what I am really looking for is hearing about lessons learned, mistakes that some have had to make to grow, etc. and this thread has already been widely helpful.

If you have a problem with it don’t participate.

I hope everyone who has contributed does not feel pressured to do so, and wishes to share stories to help others.

If a moderator feels this post goes against community guidelines, I trust something would be done.

Thank you for your concerns.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I’ve gone ahead and renamed the thread and edited my message to ensure my point got across, and to not trigger another member.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

My question is..why do you want to know this information if you only have 2 wethers? Is this information for your blog? What's the reason for this? Who's education?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Moers kiko boars said:


> My question is..why do you want to know this information if you only have 2 wethers? Is this information for your blog? What's the reason for this? Who's education?


Mine. I have a good friend who purchased some breeding goats, I've worked closely with her advising and mentoring with her pets, and now that she will have kiddings I feel responsible to continue my education on the more complicated side of kiddings. I've worked with larger herds, mind you - I only own wethers personally, but I've managed others. Almost all kiddings I have been involved in, as I said above, have gone smoothly (because there haven't been too many!)

I do not have ulterior motives. I do not steal information for my blog, I blog based on things that I have experienced.

As a goat owner, whether I have males, females, Nigerians, Nubians, boers, I enjoy learning about all topics and I love to absorb all info like a sponge! It fulfills me.

Please do not ask someone why they wish to learn, there's nothing better in this word than learning new things.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

@Moers Kiko Boers, though I do not need to explain myself to you, I will be (hopefully!) purchasing property soon with more room for a full herd. With that will come kiddings.

I still do not understand why I need to justify educating myself.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

I have NO PROBLEMS with learning. But why don't you have your friends join TGS? ITS free and their are alot of great ideas on here. Maybe they could have options and make there own choices? 
I thought TGS was people sharing THEIR experiences and knowledge from their personal experiences. Is that correct?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I have actually recommended it to her, I recommend TGS to nearly every goat owner I meet! I recommend it on Facebook groups, in conversation, to vets, to friends, to local farmers, and even to people who have reached out to me for advice on my blog.

Thought it was a nice opportunity to educate myself as well, if you read my most recent post above you’ll see why.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I just want to shut this down because I see even I am not following the rules to keep it friendly and fun.

We’re all here to learn. There are things I don’t know, there’s things you don’t know, and we’ve met in the middle on this wonderful site to fill in the blanks!!

Have a wonderful night, no hard feelings, I think this was just a misunderstanding and I apologize if anyone was offended by the topic.


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## AndersonRanch (Oct 18, 2020)

I admit I wasn’t getting it either and I don’t have anything against you WHAT SO EVER! Most kidding issues are honestly a fluke. The most common being tangled up kids, or kids being in the dumbest position they could be in. That’s not something that one can prevent, and we all know what in theory needs to be done. Of course knowing and actually doing is two totally different things. 
But speaking for myself and maybe by the sounds of it others too a lot of times bad kiddings end in death and I have had my heart totally ripped out over those. Ideally I know it wasn’t my fault, but I still feel like I failed them. So I think that’s why this is kinda a touchy subject for some. 
But to add to this other then my fast crap happens I think the best advise I ever had was when I was told that kid NEEDS to come out or they are all dead. I know a lot of times I have to remind myself this, not that I was giving up and going to leave a doe with a kid in her but that I need to get a bit more aggressive and get that sucker out by any means if easy is just not doing it.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

AndersonRanch said:


> I admit I wasn't getting it either and I don't have anything against you WHAT SO EVER! Most kidding issues are honestly a fluke. The most common being tangled up kids, or kids being in the dumbest position they could be in. That's not something that one can prevent, and we all know what in theory needs to be done. Of course knowing and actually doing is two totally different things.
> But speaking for myself and maybe by the sounds of it others too a lot of times bad kiddings end in death and I have had my heart totally ripped out over those. Ideally I know it wasn't my fault, but I still feel like I failed them. So I think that's why this is kinda a touchy subject for some.
> But to add to this other then my fast crap happens I think the best advise I ever had was when I was told that kid NEEDS to come out or they are all dead. I know a lot of times I have to remind myself this, not that I was giving up and going to leave a doe with a kid in her but that I need to get a bit more aggressive and get that sucker out by any means if easy is just not doing it.


Thank you, I do apologize again if the thread's goal was confusing or saddening to some. One hundred percent not my intention!


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

I don't understand the animosity. As with any other thread, you are free not to read and/or participate if the topic doesn't appeal to you. I also don't understand the demand for the OP to justify why they started the thread or the implication that they're not entitled to based on the sex of the goats currently in their possession...?

Either way, I am very fortunate to not have had any truly terrible kiddings. But that is ONLY because I have a very good, very experienced mentor with lots of experience very close by! I have had stuck kids and I have lost kids, and I have had stressful kiddings. I have never lost a doe but I know one of these days it's bound to happen. My biggest problem is that I've so far never been able to help! I'm not unwilling, just unskilled! If I think a doe is in trouble and I try to go in to reposition the kid, I never get past my knuckles! Between the kid trying to come out and the doe trying to push me out, I just don't know how to proceed, how gentle I have to be, how much room I can make, etc! Everyone always says "go in," but the going in is the hard part! My last kidding this year was a FF who started kidding in the middle of the night. She was pushing and not getting anywhere, with just the tips of the hooves out. I thought I was dealing with a kid who was upside down and backwards. I tried to push that kid back in to reposition it but it wasn't moving, and the doe didn't stop trying to push it/me out. I stopped for a minute to breathe, think over my options, wonder whether I could/should try to get the neighbor, and tried to get my panicking under control...and while I was getting myself together, she pushed the kid out on her own. It was neither upside down nor backwards. Ugh. Every year I think I understand things better and that I'll be able to do it next time, and every time I'm put to the test I fail! I have a doe due next month and she is absolutely enormous and carrying quads at least, maybe quints. I'm hoping and praying that things go smoothly and I won't have to intervene with her!


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## mariella (Feb 23, 2017)

If my shearing can help someone save a doe or babies or both then I'm more than happy to relive everything. I was helping a friend with a stuck kid and had to relive every birth ever so I don't see any harm in telling people about it. My upbringing was rocky (as a lot of people's are) and I came away with a perspective of, its in the past and I learned something now how can I help someone learn from my past?


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## KJgoats (Oct 20, 2020)

mariella said:


> If my shearing can help someone save a doe or babies or both then I'm more than happy to relive everything. I was helping a friend with a stuck kid and had to relive every birth ever so I don't see any harm in telling people about it. My upbringing was rocky (as a lot of people's are) and I came away with a perspective of, its in the past and I learned something now how can I help someone learn from my past?


I agree, if one person's stories about kiddings they've helped with in the past and how they assisted the doe will help just 1 other person later that is a great thing. I know it is a touchy subject and when I was writing my previous post I honestly cried writing it. I learned so much from that first kidding and if my story or anyone else's story will later help a fellow goat lover to save their doe or baby that would be amazing. If you see a feed that you know may upset you just dont read it, simple as that. A lot of people may benefit from learning about experiences like these. I may have been able to save my doe or at least helped more if I had know how to. And some of this information may have given me the knowledge to do so. Please do not harp on the creator for this feed about something she did not intend to be taken out of context if she had good intentions.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

OK everyone, there is no need to pick on *NigerianDwarfOwner707.*

I see no problem with the thread. 
It can be a sensitive subject to some.
If you do not feel it is appropriate then do not write to it.

We all have had bad experiences at one time or another, we need to share them with others, so we may help others in those situations.

Of course the thread had a name change since I had first posted, so I didn't go into detail of head back situation.

It really is OK to share your experiences, only if you have the heart to do so. If not, move on to a different thread.

Keep it friendly, keep it fun.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Here's one I posted in 2017...

I'm digging up this thread because we had a nasty case of head back yesterday. A big two-year-old first freshener was a week overdue and labor wasn't progressing much after the water broke. We saw the amniotic bubble start to come, but then it disappeared, never to return. Instead there was a lot of fluid. The sac had broken inside. I went for an exploratory exam and unexpectedly found the doe only partially dilated. I could barely get my fingers inside past the middle joint, never mind my knuckles! I waited about 20 minutes in hopes she would dilate a little more as she contracted. This time I was able to get my hand in, but just barely. She was very, very tight, and the only thing I could feel was a hairy shoulder. There was no head and no legs. I was able to reach down and retrieve the legs, but the head eluded me. The kid had a very long neck and the head was so far back it had to be almost touching the tail. And that doe would not dilate enough for me to force my way in any further! She was very strong and pushing hard, which didn't help.

After I'd been trying about fifteen minutes my vet friend who is boarding horses at my place just happened to show up and of course I flagged her down. First thing she taught me--keep the doe up with a straw bale! Brilliant idea! My husband and my father-in-law had been bracing that goat up with sheer strength, but the straw bale took the weight so all they had to do was keep her on it (easier said than done a few times, but still better than trying to support her!).

Unfortunately we did not have a happy ending. The vet and I took turns working away for well over an hour and neither of us could get much luck. I had gotten the kid's head turned toward me by hooking his lower jaw with my fingers, but then he got stuck that way with his neck facing away and his nose pointing back at us in a very kinked position. The top of the head was now out of reach and the jaw too slippery to grasp. And there simply was no room in that doe! The vet had even less luck than me because her hands were slightly bigger and she had a hard time using her left, which in this case was required. We tag-teamed each other as our arms grew numb, but after about the third or fourth try our vet gave up and said we needed to take her to the clinic for an emergency c-section.

I decided to try one last time. I lubed up (because by now things were getting pretty dry in there), and I was able to push the feet completely back in. We had both tried this earlier, but Tigerlily was pushing so hard we couldn't get the feet to retract enough, and she was so tight we couldn't get the head into the passage with both our hands and the feet in there. It was a mess. By the time I gave it my last try, Tigerlily was so exhausted she'd stopped pushing. She had also dilated just a little more. It was enough. I was finally able to get the feet out of the way and bring that head around. Once the head was out, I was able to go back in for a leg and he came away. Unfortunately, he was gone by then and we weren't able to revive him.

But I learned a couple of things. First, use a straw or hay bale to keep that goat up! Second, find the head (or tail) first! Don't bring the legs out until you know where the head is because you may need the room, and once those legs are out they may not go back in. Of course, this won't do any good if the legs are already out before you help the doe, but in this case I think I would have been much better off if I'd left those legs curled under out of the way while I reached in for the head. Once the head is in place it's usually not hard to find a leg. The opposite cannot be said!

I'd been hoping for a buckling, and he sure was a pretty one. I'm very sad we lost him, but I'm grateful for lessons learned. I'm also grateful that our doe is ok and didn't need a c-section after all. I had high hopes for this little lady. This was our most-anticipated kidding of the year, and I'm sad it turned out this way. I don't know why she didn't dilate properly. She's a big doe and she looks wide enough. She's had a very healthy, active pregnancy and from the looks of things she should have had no trouble. The kid was super long, but not overly wide. This should have been much easier than it turned out.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Not long after the incident above, one of my friend's goats went into labor. It was a Nigerian Dwarf doe and she had a huge single kid with its head back. This baby's head wasn't as far back as Tigerlily's and the kid was definitely alive when we started trying to reposition it so I thought it would be a good outcome, but sadly it turned out not to be. I realized with this second head-back presentation that I really needed a kid puller in my kidding box. Trying to thread a flimsy piece of baling twine around a lower jaw or head is just about impossible. It's not stiff enough and the target is always just beyond the reach of your fingers (because if you could reach your fingers just a little bit further you probably wouldn't need the twine!). My friend and I worked on that doe for a very long time before we had to give up. She called a vet who ended up pulling the kid out but of course it was long gone by then. Unfortunately the vet had to be quite aggressive to get that kid out and the doe's uterus tore. She died a few days later. 

The lesson here was to always, always have a kid puller handy. I'm sure we could have snared that head if we'd had the right tool. Also, once again, look for the head FIRST instead of fishing out the legs. My friend had already pulled the legs out when I got there and I couldn't get them back in. With this type of presentation the head is simply too far away to be able to reach it when the feet are clogging up the passage. I've delivered a few head-first kids and it's very easy to reach under the neck and find the feet. The same can't be said for bringing the head forward when the feet are in the way.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

And then there was this fiasco:
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/a-whole-month-left-to-go.212519/

Things did not turn out so well for Nubbin. She ended up with a uterine infection (I absolutely should have done a uterine flush but I had never done one before and I was so tired by the end of this ordeal that my mind wasn't on the right track I guess). She was doing poorly so the owner took her to the vet who confirmed uterine infection and a tear. I'm not sure if it was a uterine tear or a cervical tear. Either way, I'm not happy that this happened. Nubbin was so full of kids I'm actually not surprised that she tore. I did my best to be as gentle as possible, but she was so full of kids it's possible that she even tore herself when contractions started. She was like a balloon full to bursting and I doubt her uterus had one bit of elasticity left. No doe should have to deliver 4 full-sized kids! Usually when they have quads the kids are smaller. These four were the size of regular twins.

I saw Nubbin in August and she still looked awful. She was very thin and her coat was dull and falling out in patches. She's only seven years old but she looked ancient. Her owner was supplementing her with all kinds of goodies, but Nubbin's appetite was poor. I haven't heard from the owner since then so I'm hoping Nubbin eventually took a turn for the better. The four kids, on the other hand, were sleek, fat, gorgeous weanlings when I saw them. I'm so happy that we didn't lose the entire crew in that kidding. As bad as it turned out, it could have been much, much worse.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

So do you reach back in to look for the legs while the kid's head is out? Is there enough room for that? I thought in that instance you had to push the head back in and bring the head and legs out all at the same time. Can the kid not be pulled (or delivered) with the head out but both feet back?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

If the head is in the passage then you do need to push it back while you retrieve the legs but this is no big deal. If the head is totally out you may not need to push the head back to reach the feet since the neck is very slender and you should be able to reach in under the throat and fetch one leg out at a time. I would not like to have a doe deliver a kid with both front feet back, but if she did it's far less traumatic than if she delivers a kid with the head back. I've heard of people pulling kids out head back and all and this would probably be the worst possible scenario for both doe and kid.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Damfino said:


> And then there was this fiasco:
> https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/a-whole-month-left-to-go.212519/
> 
> Things did not turn out so well for Nubbin. She ended up with a uterine infection (I absolutely should have done a uterine flush but I had never done one before and I was so tired by the end of this ordeal that my mind wasn't on the right track I guess). She was doing poorly so the owner took her to the vet who confirmed uterine infection and a tear. I'm not sure if it was a uterine tear or a cervical tear. Either way, I'm not happy that this happened. Nubbin was so full of kids I'm actually not surprised that she tore. I did my best to be as gentle as possible, but she was so full of kids it's possible that she even tore herself when contractions started. She was like a balloon full to bursting and I doubt her uterus had one bit of elasticity left. No doe should have to deliver 4 full-sized kids! Usually when they have quads the kids are smaller. These four were the size of regular twins.
> ...


So other that the uterine flush, is there anything that you would do in the future if a doe is _that _big_? _Induce earlier maybe? Or is it possible that her diet was such that her kids got too big?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm not sure. I would have induced sooner but the owner was hesitant to induce at all. The vet told her that every goat he'd ever induced had had a poor outcome, but I countered that if you need to induce it's probably because there's already a problem. In this case there was definitely already a problem! The doe was simply ENORMOUS and it was causing difficulty for her to stand, sit, or lay down in any position. Plus, I know she couldn't eat enough for that crowd since her stomach was being squeezed. I really think that in the end Nubbin was already too weak to go into proper labor and there just wasn't enough "push" to dilate properly or bring kids into the world. Everything about her labor seemed "off" to me. 

As far as diet, the owner takes excellent care of her goats and Nubbin was the herd queen--big time. She could eat as much as she liked of the choicest hay and no one was going to argue with her about it, so I can believe she probably had more than her fair share leading up to that last month. Then during the last month I don't think it was possible for her to get enough calories to stay ahead of the game once those kids were already so big. It's tricky to properly balance the diet of a doe as pregnant as this one was!


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

heres mine: 
Cricket was having slight contractions around 5:00 Friday night, pawing, pre labor. (this was in april btw) so I stayed out with her untill around 10:00 and they nothing much was happening, so I went to bed. woke up to her having pretty strong contractions. she was pushing for about an hour, so i got worried. Her water didnt break. Nothing. We went in slightly, but since her water hadnt broke, we were afraid to go in any more. We were calling around everywhere. Nobody would come out because COVID was so bad in April. And my usual vet wanted me to drive her 45 minutes away because he was 1 hour from his office, due to a cow with the same problem. we didnt have time. I remembered my goat friend who lives about 5-10 miles from me and she was at the house in less than 10 minutes. Crickets water has broke by now, and I could see the first boys tail trying to come out, but it would just go back in when her contraction stopped. While we were waiting, I went in and tried to flip him around, but he was too big. She ended up getting him flipped around and out, but he was dead. And 8 pounds. While she was trying to revive him, I went in and got the second kid out. She was coming in right, but it was too late. went back in, found another little girl, dead. Both the girls were about 3-4 pounds each. 

Cricket was exhausted. Her backend was very raw and swollen. I honestly thought I would lose her. Lots of Prep H and banamine later, she is doing just fine  

It was very traumatic for me, and even worse for cricket. She wont even go in the kidding stall. She adopted me as her baby, and we have been even more bonded than before. I still cry when I think about it. It was truly agonizing for both of us. 

What did i learn? 
-Have multiple vets on call. Tell them you have a doe due soon, and make sure they know. You will have a better chance getting one out to your place. 
-Be prepared. We didnt have banamine, and my girl had to go the whole night with no pain killer
-Keep your cool. I was crying in the first hour i knew something was wrong. It didnt help anything, and didnt help cricket at all
-Dont be afraid to go in and get your hands dirty

Much more as well. Its really scary. That was a hard month for us, and honestly i was almost ready to quit after we lost Delta in May. So glad I didnt though. I would be lost without my babies.


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## mariella (Feb 23, 2017)

Another story I have that wasn't bad at all was when my girl Patty was having her third set.
We were in kidding watch with her and she was in day 147 when we came out to her being in early labor. It was 6:30 am and every thing was going textbook perfect! But by 2:40 pm she still wasn't pushing yet and I felt like there might be something going on. So I gloved up and went in, she wasn't dilated enough for me to get 2 fingers in so I waited 2 more hours and checked again but it was still the same. My sister held her while I pushed 1 finger through and I felt a sack with hooves into, so I put another finger in and it felt like a rubber band snapping! I thought I tore her cervix but she went right to pushing and out came 2 beautiful girls! I had a vet check her and he said she was 100% fine.
To this day I don't know what happened but it all ended well.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:bighug: Wow.


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