# Body Language



## ashkelon (Jul 25, 2009)

I've done some searching on Google and other places, and I've yet to find a good site that deal with caprine body language.

Rex, you make a really excellent start describing the escalation of aggression from very mild to outright, and you show how it transitions from behaviours around other goats into behaviours with people and other animals.

I know it's a huge topic, but I'd like to have ya'll address different kinds of body language.

Questions like :: What's affection from a goat like? What does that wagging tail mean? What are those two goats doing when they ______?

Things like that.

I've asked a lot of behaviour-related questions. Most of the time, Cabra seems like a combination of a very, very, bold horse with a good shot of working-bred protection-bred German Shepherd Dog. I respond to him like that, and it seems to be working. For the most part, I treat him like a very smart, bold horse.

There are two questions I have for starters.

What does the wagging tail mean? Is it situational? I've seen it so many times in herd situations that I'm having trouble sorting it out. I've also seen it on nurslings, so I figure it's a hold-over neonate thing, but heck, I really don't have a clue!

Play behaviour. Cabra loves to play! He plays with the young goats. The does play with each other, and it seems like there is dominance play wrapped up in it, but also that they are doing a lot of it with great joy. The billy doesn't seem to play with anyone. Cabra likes to chase me, but he doesn't do any "puffing up" before-hand, he just lets me get a head start, lets out a "baaa" and boinks towards me. He puts on the brakes if I give him the least bit of a "hard eye", and then clicks over like he's walking on eggs. He chases the chickens for pure joy.

At this point I've treated him like the horses, and I don't play with him. I enjoy him playing around me, but I've not let him "involve" me. I figured that might lead to behaviour issues. Are there any "safe" games to play with goats? 

We spend a hours around each other, and he's a great companion. In the evening he sleeps on my feet while I read or watch the stars. I like things the way they are, but I don't want to be too quick to rebuff playful behaviour, if there is no "deeper thinking" going on behind it.


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## ashkelon (Jul 25, 2009)

Here's another one.

Dogs retain all sorts of neonate behaviours to express themselves. One is how they will lick by rolling their tongues in their barely opened mouths when they want to calm themselves or another dog. Sort of the dog way of saying "Don't worry! You are safe as a nursing baby!".

What behaviours do goats use to calm themselves?

Are there things we can do to calm them when they are stressed or afraid, that they will listen to?

I know there are other people like me who only have one, new-ish, pet goat. I'm lucky to have a herd to watch, but sorting out the "foreign language", even when it's like "horse", is still difficult.

Thanks!


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

What does the wagging tail mean? Is it situational? I've seen it so many times in herd situations that I'm having trouble sorting it out. I've also seen it on nurslings, so I figure it's a hold-over neonate thing, but heck, I really don't have a clue!


it's a measure of excitement. When a nursling waggs its tail it's because "milk is gooooood". When a mature goat waggs its tail it's mostly in the wake of either mating or fighting. You may also want to have a closer look to the position of the tail in your studies as this will give you even more information about the goats state of mind and state of health.

Play behaviour: running games are necessary for the lambs to develop stamina. They prefer to play those games on steep hills or on objects to jump/climb on as this will also develop coordination (remember, they originally live in steep mountainous terrain). Running to catch up with you may also simply be acting out is herd instinct.

I don't know how old the playing does are that you describe but a mature doe will not play any longer (or a doe with a lamb). Then "playing" will become rank oriented.

Calming behaviour: the yawn and they chew (very short). If you look on the list of calming signals developed by Turid Rugaas you will find quite a few that goats (and horses and other animals) will use and that you, in turn can use, too.

More body language: I have a book her about dwarf goats with really good sketches of body language, expressions, etc. I can scan those pictures and email them to you (can't put them online because of copyright issues).


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## ashkelon (Jul 25, 2009)

Oh, Sabine! Those scans would be wonderful. I will also look for the book. 

My general email is [email protected] ... gmail ... com

Those things are so good to know! I want to understand my goat better. He's pretty young. Judging from when he cut his teeth, I'd say 15-18 months now. 

I have noticed a shift in his behaviour this summer. At the beginning of the summer he was doing a lot of playing, chasing, boinking, butting in a calm, friendly way with the other goats. Now, at the end of the summer, he doesn't play as much -- once in awhile one of the kids tempts him, but mostly it has shifted to more "ranking" games. They definitely have a serious feel to them that the old play doesn't.

Luckily, for all that he's friendly and companionable, he knows he's a goat. I've seen him get pretty rough in the herd, and when he gets up to go somewhere, most of the others follow. The billy only seems to pay attention to the does, and he is one serious character! 

The does and young bucks are a mixed bunch. They are boers, and are for slaughter. They don't stay around, and that probably contributes to my confusion watching them. I'm never seeing a "settled" herd. 

There is my goat, one pygmy and a boer cross that are pets. Only Cabra belongs to me, and the others are quite young, maybe 4-5 months. There is also a huge alpine dairy doe up in the barn. She's the "cheese goat" and while she's free, she rarely leaves the barn. She's bonded to one of the horses there. Her milk is very good, and I don't care for cow milk.

New Question ::

Cabra leaves the herd when he sees or hears me, and stays with me as long as I'm out, and follows me to the car when I leave. He wants to touch me. Never blocks my way, but if I stand still, he likes to lean a flank against the back of my legs, or his neck against the side of my thigh. If I sit, he will almost always go for a little salt, and then cuddle up against my side or on my feet and chew his cud.

I let him lean on me this way, and I do pet him quite often, as well as brushing him (he has a toothbrush for scratching his head around his horns). Is this OK? 

I've had some dogs who could never be petted except as praise for a command, because they took "casual" petting as a sign of submission. I've never had that problem with a horse, but I don't let them or Cabra rub heads on me (mostly because I don't want to be hurt). I do scratch their eyelids when I know they want to rub.

I hope the leaning is cool, I love the feel of it, and he makes a great backrest. The one time he did "body block" me, he was being goofy and I kneed him out of the way. He's never tried it again. I also love petting, so I hope that's ok too. There's something so comfortable about a cud-chewing goat at my feet.

Thanks, Stephanie


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hi Stephanie,

well, it will - as so often - depend on the character of the goat.

My favourite wether Blacky who died from cancer a few weeks ago, loved to rub his head (not the horns but the side of his head) on my chest and stick his head under my arm. He was a high ranking goat and it could have turned out nasty but he never took advantage of me favouring him, so I could let him go on with it for his life time which were almost 8 years.

Two buck lambs from this year also want to stand beside me and brush against me but it will take only seconds until they start trying to horn me in the legs and so for them it's a straight "no-go". They have to stay away from me and give me room any time. It's sad because they where agreable when younger but for the last weeks their hormones got the better of them (and maybe it's a character flaw that's starting to show because other bucks with the same father AND their father are well mannered and polite).

I think it's a good thing that he will leave the herd for your company and as long as he does not take advantage of the freedoms you give him, you can go on. 

That his behaviour changes right now is normal for his age and the time of year - rutting season is near and even the wethers are affected by that display or hormons and mating behaviour from the does.

As for the book: I will scan the pages that are of interest for you in the next days. The book's been printed in German so I'm not sure if it will be of use for you. If you can read German I can give you the link to where to purchase it.


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

Of my three wethers two are twins and the other a half-brother born a week later.

I know that they will butt heads, but often the twins will double team the third and butt him in the ribs, belly or from behind. They are small enough now that they aren't doing any harm, but when they get bigger it may be a problem. 

It doesn't help that the odd one out is also the one which seeks the most attention and gets it. He is the most affectionate of them all. 

He has a bigger bone structure and appears to be out growing the others, so I am hoping he will be able to take care of himself.

Should I be doing something else with them all?


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## ashkelon (Jul 25, 2009)

Thank you for the information on Turid! She is not well known here, and I'm looking through what I can find with great interest.

I've been able to accomplish a great deal with my own animals, following somewhat the same path as she has, but independently. My dogs, horses, and I have been "talking" on this level most of my life. I'm always amused and little appalled at how much they are "saying" that is not that subtle, but is being missed.

I learned from my grandfathers and great-grandfather, who were avid trainers, and always advocated watching and a "quiet hand", but to always be ready to respond and step in at the right time. 

The closest thing I can think of in a book is Tom Dorrance's "True Horsemanship Through Feel". It is not terribly "organized" and won't give a person a step by 1-2-3 step to training, but does give a marvelous introduction to quiet observation though ones' skin and eyes.

I've seen horses and dogs "shouting" to be heard, or worse yet, getting numb and dull through not being heard. That's one of the reasons I really want to understand what is going on in Cabra's head. 

There is a richness to training when you know what the body is up to. 

Thanks.

BTW, lest that sound too soft and "new age-y" it's what I learned through 5 generations of trainers. And I do not hesitate to step in and get down and dirty with an animal with an attitude. It's just that if you know what's going on, it's so much easier to stop something undesireable and the flicker of an ear, or the drop of an eyelid, than it is when the fur is flying.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Bob Jones said:


> Of my three wethers two are twins and the other a half-brother born a week later.
> 
> I know that they will butt heads, but often the twins will double team the third and butt him in the ribs, belly or from behind. They are small enough now that they aren't doing any harm, but when they get bigger it may be a problem.
> 
> ...


Bob,

brothers or close friends will often close up on another (third) goat. For you it's now a trait that isn't admireable but I have seen in my herd two older wethers closing up on one unruly buck yearling and thus "straighten him out".

As with many things in goats these actions should be watched and often have two sides on them. Two goats that work together to straighten out an unruly goat are also bound to do the same to mob a low ranking goat, as well.

Will these three stay together or will they switch over into a larger herd with older animals so that the odd one has the chance to get away from them und/or form a friendship with an older goat that will give him some protection?

Do the three differ in color, markings und/or horns (horned vs. dehorned)?

I would also think about getting a forth goat in the same age range because from my experience an even number of animals when the group is quite small (under 10 animals) will keep the peace better and friendships can establish better.

That's the next thing: three goats are a group but not a herd. They can be comfortable with each other because no one is alone but they can't form the compex social bonds a goat herd will show: mothers and lambs, sisters, brothers, aunts, older siblings, low ranking goats, high ranking goats, grown friends all form smaller sub-groups inside the herd and offer a social network for every member of the herd. These dynamics begin to form from a number of five animals up to the larger sized herds.


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

The twins look alike except one is a bit smaller. They are Lamanch-Alpine. The third is Lamanch-Nubian and is about the same coloring but there is enough difference and a bit of a curl in the hair down his spine. 

I don't think he is 'unruly' at all and he is really quite deferential to them. He will usually leave the area and allow them to have the toy or the food, etc. He stays closest to me when I am with them. 

I am picking up two more this weekend. A three yr old and a four year old. They are from the same herd as each other but from a different one than the three.

When I am with them I don't allow it. When I see them cock their heads at him, I intervene and turn their heads away with a gentle push on the side of the face.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

Body language is such a subtle thing that it is hard to describe all the nuances. Observation over time is the best teacher, just watching the goats interact will teach you volumes about goat behavior. I agree that the tail wagging is excitement or more aptly, something is stimulating the goat. It can be warm milk to a kid, rough housing with two year olds or coming into heat for a mature doe. Sometimes it can even be pain induced. 

Leaning on you is not a bad thing as long as the goat doesn't start getting demanding. Goats often pair up and become friends with another goat, even in a large herd situation. It pays to know who is paired with who when deciding which goats to take on a trip.They will often lay touching each other. I think they enjoy the feeling of closeness and I always take it as a sign of trusting acceptance when a goat chooses to lay next to or actually touching me. Like you said, I enjoy the feeling it gives. It also lends a little insight to why one goat out of three is much friendlier to you. If the other two are paired up, you are the only friend the third goat has. Basically they are really happy to see you because they don't have anyone else to hang with that they trust not to poke them in the ribs every time they aren't paying attention. Thats also why Sabines comment makes sense about keeping even numbers of goats. Keep in mind that these are very broad generalities and groups of three or five may also get along just fine. It all depends on the goat personalities involved.

A goat that is affectionate will often be in your personal space just hanging out. They don't have a concept of needing room unless its with a dominate goat. Dominate goats demand personal space from subordinates but may turn around and allow its buddy to eat right beside it. So knowing this we can deduce what the goat thinks about us by a few simple tests. Walk up to a goat that is eating and see what its reaction is. Does it simply keep eating and let us touch it all over (friend) does it move away giving us space (sees us as dominate) or does it tip its head toward us to warn us out of its space (sees us as subordinate). The first two are completely acceptable while the third is not.

There are many more signs and behaviors we could talk about but this is getting long so we'll have to cover some others in another post.


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## ashkelon (Jul 25, 2009)

THANK YOU BOTH! This is EXACTLY what I'm looking for. It is making so much sense to me in terms of what I see.

We have anywhere from 4-20 goats on the place. The four are a stable number, but the others come and go. They may stay as long as 4 or 5 months. I watch them, but try not to get attached. I think, to an extent Cabra does as well. I'm sure it affects our goat dynamics, since I don't suppose the form a real herd. I would guess tensions are always higher, since the group is in flux.

When they come here they are turned out, and they have free run of 200 acres or so. These are 99% boer mixes and are not tame or friendly. They look at Cabra like he's out of his mind when he runs to me.

Thanks again. I know I've got more tumbling around in my head.


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

The first time we went camping, we arrived after dark and they were all nervous. They were real restless on the high line and if I let them loose, they ran circles around the tent looking for me. So I finally went out and sat with them and fell asleep.

In the morning Larry was in the small of my back with Moe next to him and Curly was snuggled in my chest. 

I am hoping that a hammock will accomplish the proximity thing without having to get that close every night. Although I wasn't chilled at all without a blanket.

---
When I first got them I let them out of the vehicle without a lead and quickly realized that I was going to have goats all over the county. They wouldn't let anyone approach them to get a lead on them. 

As it was getting dark, I got down on all fours and started eating grass. They each came over to eat beside me and calmed enough for me to get them under control.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Bob Jones said:


> I don't think he is 'unruly' at all and he is really quite deferential to them. He will usually leave the area and allow them to have the toy or the food, etc. He stays closest to me when I am with them.


Bob,

I didn't want to indicate that he was "unruly". Just trying to show you the good thing in two goats pestering a third.

What you describe would be more like the mobbing version.


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

I appreciate your insights, no offense was taken. Merely thinking out loud about your input. Thanks so much.


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

In addition to Turid's books I'd recommend Linda Tellington-Jones TTEAM program for animals. THis woman was my mentor and has worked with domestic and wild aninmals in zoos all over the world. Her reading of body language is incredible and she also have activities to do with animals such as agility work that help deepen the bond between you and your animal.

Amazing person.


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## ashkelon (Jul 25, 2009)

I've met her and been to some of her seminars. One of my mentors is Marty McGee Bennet, who works with camellids and is uses ttouch with her animals.

http://www.camelidynamics.com/

There's not a horse on my place that needs tack.


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

I added the two older goats to my herd and the double teaming has stopped. They are too busy keeping themselves out of range of the elders. 

I have an upside down canoe next to a large 3ft deep pit which they play on and in. The three little ones were dancing on the canoe and teasing Diego and he couldn't quite reach them. So he went the long way round to get on the canoe which sent the younguns scattering. Whereupon, Diego, the 3yr old started dancing and kicking up his heels as he jumped into the pit. He finished with a proud pose on the little hill. 

I have noticed from time to time they will sniff something and turn up their upper lip. I have no idea what that is about.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Bob Jones said:


> I have noticed from time to time they will sniff something and turn up their upper lip. I have no idea what that is about.


this is called "flehmen response" - it's a reaction to strong scents.


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