# Training?



## Retiredokjusttired (Jun 26, 2016)

Is there a thread or article that covers basics for training to pack? Something that covers what temperament to look for, basic requirements from your goat or suggestions on how to spot/tell prospects for a novice owner? Breed preference, sex of packer, ect...or is it a free for all?

Thanks in advance!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you go to the packing and work goat section, there should be threads on it.


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## Retiredokjusttired (Jun 26, 2016)

Thank you


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I don't know if there is just one thread or article because that's a LOT of questions and not all of them are easily answered, nor will everyone agree on them. 

Basic temperament: The goat should be calm, people-oriented, eager to get out and work, and follow you well without a leash. Some of these things can be developed with practice and training, but if the goat is lazy, stubborn, or anti-social at heart it will be difficult (or impossible) to turn it into a reliable trail companion.

Basic conformation requirements: Overall strong, balanced appearance with good feet and legs. Hooves should be large and not splayed, and legs should be straight with good substance of bone. Pay attention to the pasterns. They should not be too angled (dropped), and they should not be small and narrow. They should look strong. The goat should walk straight and have good angle in the hocks. Overall, the goat should appear sturdy, well-muscled, and level across the topline. Prominent withers are best for saddle fitting, and the goat should not appear to roll side-to-side when it walks. The goat should be thrifty. You don't want to buy a hard keeper. Some people buy a "project goat" to save money, but this rarely works out well, especially for novices. Try to buy something that looks good "out of the box." 

Basic training requirements: Once he's bonded to you, the goat should follow you without a leash. He should stay with you but respect your space. He should also be trained to wear a halter, stand tied, walk with you on a leash, and stand when told "Whoa." He should stand quietly when being saddled or when having his hooves trimmed. These skills are acquired through consistent training.

Breed preferences vary widely between packers, but most prefer the Swiss dairy breeds or some Swiss breed cross. I like Alpine/Nubian crosses but I am in the minority. Most people avoid the Nubian breed altogether because they tend to be lazy and often loud. I find that crossing them with Alpines improves their work ethic and cuts down on the noise while bringing some nice Nubian traits to the table. Some people like to cross Swiss breeds with Boers or Kikos to add muscle. 

Most people pack with wethers, although some use does and a very few use bucks when they are not in rut. I prefer wethers. They are generally much bigger and stronger than does and you don't have to worry about udders and heat cycles, and they are usually easy keepers. I don't recommend packing with a buck. It's true they are very strong, but they are also very stinky for much of the year and they tend to spray when they get excited--YUCK! 

Good luck!


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## Retiredokjusttired (Jun 26, 2016)

Thank you Damfino. That is exactly the info I was looking for. The 2 articles did not hit all those points although they were a little helpful.

About teaching the goat to stand tied...I have had a lot of young horses. You round pen horses to train them...something a goat would probably laugh at and escape for sure. How do you teach the goat to stand tied if it is not willing on it's own? I guess what I am asking is how much does temperament play into this? I have had mostly off breed horses, "hot" horses/Arabs and Mustangs. I have seen some good 'fits" over the years and moving into goats is new territory. Is the goat in a goat halter when you teach it to stand tied to avoid injury or still on the leash? Do I need to tie it high in case it gets nervous/spooks or anything and flips itself.
I did Competitive Trail Riding/NATRAC with my horses. Safety is stressed and taught through the sport. I am sure the goats safety is priority in packing so I am full of questions. 
I have 2 prospect wethers so this is excellent info you gave. I appreciate it.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Having a strong background in training and working with horses is a great start! A lot of the principles for working with horses cross over to goats, and you will also have a good eye for correct conformation. This is a huge advantage!

You're right that we don't "round pen" goats--they communicate very differently from horses and I've found that goats tend to bond with people more readily and more closely than horses. I usually lead and tie my goats in a halter when I am working with them because it gives me a lot more control than a collar. My wethers have horns, so controlling their heads is important for safety reasons. But even without horns, a pack wether is a big, strong animal and I want to be able to control him easily. I can't do that with a collar since they are more than strong enough to pull me over if the collar slips down to the bottom of the neck.

I start tying my goats by the collar during feeding/milking time when they are about a month old, and I start putting them on leashes and walking them to and from their pens soon after that. At this young age they can't pull very hard on the leash so it's easier to train them. However, it's important to be careful of their little necks, and I never ever leave them tied and unattended even for a few minutes.

Once they are about six months old I introduce halters. They usually don't like them at first, but with consistent treats they soon look forward to having it put on. Once they are used to the halters, I nearly always use one when I need to tie them for any type of work, whether grooming, saddling, or hoof trimming. This way if the goat gets fractious I am better able to control him properly. I always try to tie at withers level or a little higher when I'm training them to stand tied. I have had very few problems with goats going berserk when tied. Properly socialized goats are much calmer than horses and far less likely to fight restraint. If I have a fighter I usually just tie him shorter until he can't do much other than stand there. Eventually he gets used to it and quits fighting. However, I do not leave even my trained goats tied and unattended with a halter. If I have to leave a goat tied and unattended then I tie by a collar to something down low near the ground and I make sure there is a swivel on the snap and nothing to tangle in. Like horses, a goat that gets hung up in a halter can break its neck. A good rule of thumb is to use a halter when tying short and a collar when tying long.

Properly fitting halters can be hard to find. My favorite is the Sopris X halter from Sopris Unlimited. It was originally designed as a llama halter before it was discovered that they fit goats just as well. I've used a lot of different halters over the years and llama halters nearly always fit better than halters made for goats for some reason.


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## Retiredokjusttired (Jun 26, 2016)

Great info! Thank you. I was concerned about their necks so thanks for the instruction on tying long and tying short...note taken! I have an adjustable sheep halter that fits well but may slip off as it has no under part to it. I also have a large dog "easy leader"and a few collars. I'm going to experiment with the easy leader. It is same concept as a horse halter and the best thing I have EVER found for dogs...that thing is gold for any large dog if you know how to train them to it.
I don't have any goats with collars on in the pasture. I'm nervous of the horn issue and a loose collar getting hooked while they are loose in the pasture. I am going to order some break away collars for them to use in the pasture and a standard couple for when we work. I will look at the Sopris X and I will probably get a couple. I viewed some pics you posted of your team. They are impressive? I know from years with the horses that where trailed for miles and miles...listen to experience, it will save you money and keep you safe . 
I have a 9 year old son who loves to hike and wants all of our dogs with us when we go. I told him we were going to try this with the 2 standard sized wethers and then later maybe the mini's for short hikes and he got the biggest smile on his face. Tomorrow we are going to start treats and maybe some basics on clicker training with them. 
umm...I had this thought though.....crossing water? Guess the goats don't do that? If so...how many treats should I pack?...seriously how does that happen IF it happens?
Thanks!
Can't say thanks enough for the info and I will have more questions as we go. The boys are half Tog then 1/4 Nubian, 1/4 Boar. They are both built well but they are young still at a little over 3 months old now. Both are friendly and want to be scratched but they are not pets as of now.....we will be working on that. 
Again, thanks for the input of your experience...love the pics, completely inspiring


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Goats can and do cross water, but most don't particularly care for it. Most goats will balk at first, but if you walk across like it's no big deal and leave them on the other side, they will usually follow. Don't be alarmed if they run up and down the bank a few times hollering for you to come back. Sometimes I'll walk up the trail just out of sight and wait for the goats around a corner. About 30 seconds later, a panicked goat with wet feet comes flying toward me. Usually it works, but sometimes it doesn't. A few goats would rather take themselves back to the trail head than walk through water, so be ready to run back and fetch them if that's what they decide to do. For those stubborn critters I put a leash on them and haul them right in (definitely easier to do while they're still young!). Once we're across they get cookies. Water crossings come easier and easier once you've done them a few times. Pretty soon it will be no big deal. 

Glad you like my pictures. I posted a few more from today's drive. We took some video today and I hope I have time to get it edited and uploaded to Vimeo this weekend.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Water doesn't have to be a big deal at all. It's all in how approach every situation. Just go forward with confidence that the goats will follow and normally they will after a small fuss. If you are familiar with the John Lyon's "Training From The Heart" program, it is very much adaptable to goats, kindness and repetition along with treats will get you anywhere. The more you work and play with them, the farther they will go. I wish they hadn't erased all the saved videos on the forum because I had some of an 8 week old kid swimming a creek and a group swimming across the mouth of a large river. 

I find that miniature horse halters fit my goats best but, goats have different shaped heads depending on breeding...


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## Retiredokjusttired (Jun 26, 2016)

Thank you both. Well.....THAT clears that up. I have owned a lot of Arabs. Many did not take to water. We have a ride near me that is along a river and they are forced to swim or get left. All of them choose to swim. Glad to know the goats will do it.

Great pics Goat hiker. Thank you for sharing them. Most of the natural horsemanship training is excellence. John Lyons "Shy Boy" book is where I started and he is probably my preference in that arena. I really have had good success with clicker training many animals. Will be incorporating that for sure.
I haven't seen the new pics yet but will look for them Damfino. So glad ya'll post pics and video's. Really liking the forum.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

https://vimeo.com/69599216

This old goat is very good at water.


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## Retiredokjusttired (Jun 26, 2016)

WOW! Damfino....love this...he seems to REALLY like it. That's the best!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm not sure he _likes_ water, but he definitely doesn't hesitate to go in. The swim was at the 2013 NAPgA Rendezvous. My husband and I went swimming and suddenly our old boy Cuzco followed us right in! There was a dog on the shore, and being terrified of dogs (he lost a horn when one chased him off a cliff many years earlier), he decided to follow us into the lake instead. It was COLD, but he didn't seem to mind that. I had to run back to shore and grab the camera and a leash so I could tell him more or less where to go so we could shoot the video. But we didn't have a leash on him when he first came swimming. The best thing about having an old campaigner is that he teaches the younger goats not to be afraid of getting their feet wet or of drinking from creeks and puddles on the trail (something many goats won't do until desperate).


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## Retiredokjusttired (Jun 26, 2016)

That is cool. Trust like that with any animal is the goal. The "old goat" teaching the "young goat" is the trick with horses too...at least the easiest trick IMO. Same with LGD's. My LGD's don't work "normal" but I prefer the way they work over traditional bonding with the herd...so about every 3ish years we seek out another to add so the older will teach new ibne. They guard the entire place instead of bond with the herd. Works the same. No predator issue. They cover a heck of a lot of territory this way though. I noticed we are over run with wild bunnies this year. My husband said it was because of the dogs and no predator issue. 
I always did and still do use my 30+year old Arab to teach my green horses. I currently have a young mare that is jumpy. My son (60lbs) takes my Arab on short rides while I ride her when we do something new. The "drama" and train wrecks that saves is priceless.
I was wondering about the horn. I am sure that was traumatic. If you have time...what happened? 
Also, my son and I started the bonding with my 2 wethers last night. They are friendly. They both got a goaty massage and loved it. We put them in the front compartment of our big stock trailer. They willingly stayed with us. I was wanting to ask...treats? I offered apples and they didn't take them. I have some store bought treats they are ok with but do you do the treat thing? If so, what do you use/suggest?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I use whole peanuts in the shell, raisins, unsugared dried banana slices, dried papaya cubes, yogurt chips, and dried apricots.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I definitely do the treat thing! See that bag in my hand in the swimming video? Normally it clips to the belt loops on my left hip and it's full of animal crackers. We used to do whole salted peanuts in the shell, but my old boy has trouble eating them these days because his teeth are worn out. The babies also have a harder time managing peanuts. Animal crackers seem to work for everyone and are cheaper to boot. The biggest problem we have with peanuts is that humans tend to raid the treat bag!

Most of my goats love dried fruit as well, but I don't use it often because it's more expensive and some kinds can also get sticky and clump together if they get too warm. For many years I just used grain pellets as a treat because my goat wouldn't touch anything else (and I think we tried _everything_!). In the end it comes down to what your goats like.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh also, bite sized triscuts, oyster crackers, cheese nips, ritz, any kind of small cracker.


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## Retiredokjusttired (Jun 26, 2016)

Thank you both. Those are some great idea's. I have tried graham crackers. Some like it some don't. Animal crackers and cheese nips...who would have thought. I'm just programed with the horses....no treat or fruit. My old Arab LOVES yellow Gatorade and peppermints thought. Haven't had to many horses do the treat thing. They get mouthy and having kids around...that is just not a good idea. I always give them soaked beet pulp after they work or oats. 
Will add the animal crackers and cheese nips(if I can stay out of those!) to the list. I see marshmellows a lot. 
Thank you both again for the tips.


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