# FDA trying to ban OTC antibiotics



## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

I am so sorry if this isn't allowed here. I am just so enraged and hoping some of the folks on here could comment and perhaps we can stop this from happening.

I was scrolling through my local goat group on Facebook and saw this posted








Maybe this has already been posted on here somewhere. But I only saw it this morning and I am shaking with anger, and I want to at least try and do something to help. The banning of OTC antibiotics will kill thousands of animals for no reason. I use antibiotics sparingly, but when I use them, they have saved at this point, hundreds of lives. I do have access to a vet but they I have tried cutting them out mostly as they raised prices and charge a $50 fee, just for seeing the animal, in office, not even touching them yet, and then they charge physical exam without even asking if I wanted it done. I also know lots of people live in areas with no access to vets who work on goats and/or exotic animals and rely on ordering OTC antibiotics online or driving to a feed store.

Here is the link for anyone who is willing to comment
https://www.regulations.gov/docket?D=FDA-2019-D-3614


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It already happened in California.
So now sadly, it seems to be spreading to other States.

It made me very angry too, when it happen a couple years ago.

We tried fighting it, but it went no where.

When it takes place and kicks in.
If you want antibiotics in the future.
Your vet comes out to your place, talks about your animals with you, asks how you run your operation, drugs you use and what your concerns are ect. 
You will most likely have to sign the paper and pay the fee, then, it is good for 1 year. 

If you have a problem, you can get antibiotics if an animal gets ill. 
But will have to call your vet and tell them the issue and they will give RX they feel will be needed. If I call in the morning, it is by the evening I get response. So there is sadly a wait time. By the next morning, I go pick up RX. Which is very concerning at times. 

It is tough, if you do not have Meds on hand, but unfortunately, this is how it will be. 

Believe it or not, Veterinarians do not like this either. Takes a lot of unnecessary time for them to have to go out to all the farms/ranches ect. 
They are overwhelmed with calls and is harder to get an appointment that day. So, if you have them come out to your place before any bad happens, it is quicker to get RX. 

Before they make it into law in your State, buy up all you can so you are prepared for a while after, then establish a relationship with a vet when you see you are beginning to run out of meds or the expiration dates are getting closer to expiring. 

It is a real pain, I hope you can stop it but, it is very unlikely. 
I hate this too, as we are living it now.


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

Thank you for making me aware of this. We have a good goat vet here that will give us bottles of RX medications if we request them, such as Nuflor, BoSe, etc., so hoping we don't have a huge problem and will just be able to buy from him instead of stores. It really is a pain in the butt. The higher-up people think that they are fixing problems, but they really have no idea what they are doing to farmers--the people actually affected by it. I don't think I'll be really badly affected by it but feel for the people who will, and don't have access to a good vet who will give you the medications you need and causes unnecessary suffering.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

First I've heard of it! Thanks I'll be writing a comment for sure! Oh this is ridiculous that they don't see the damage they're going to cause.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> It already happened in California.
> So now sadly, it seems to be spreading to other States.
> 
> It made me very angry too, when it happen a couple years ago.
> ...


Such a shame  I feel awful for you and everyone else. It is just so easy right now to run to TSC and pick up antibiotics 7 days a week. My vet is only open mon-thu 9am-5pm and Friday from 10am-2pm. I do get things such as bo-se from them and usually I ask in the morning and don't get a call back until after they close or the following days. I do like my vet, and do have a good relationship but I am paying a lot right now and it is making it hard for me to do regular care with them. I can still go in an emergency or if I need something that is RX only, but I've cut out routine checks and all farm visits since they raised their prices. I fear that if this does happen, in a few years I will no longer be able to afford the best care for my animals and will likely end up losing my herd if I have any sudden major infection problems Just the thought of that is making me tear up. And I feel worse for some family friends who live way out there and don't have access to a vet closer than 2 hours away. They usually always just make 1 trip to town a month and always have antibiotics stocked just incase. Some many people who commented on the original Facebook post also mentioned how they will probably end up losing their herds since they have no livestock vet near, and if there is a sudden medical problem such as pneumonia, they wouldn't be able to make it to a vet quick enough and people will needlessly be losing animals. I am not excited for the future.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

SandyNubians said:


> I use antibiotics sparingly


Not all people do. We need these medications for sick people and animals, and over-use is rapidly destroying this opportunity. Here, for example, we have resistent tuberculosis coming in from the east. How are things in America with, for example, that "MRSA"?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

(grouphug)


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Thanks for the heads-up on this! I'll be posting it to other goat-related websites as well.



Trollmor said:


> Not all people do. We need these medications for sick people and animals, and over-use is rapidly destroying this opportunity. Here, for example, we have resistent tuberculosis coming in from the east. How are things in America with, for example, that "MRSA"?


I really think overuse of antibiotics is more of a problem with industrial farms than with small producers. Most of us can't afford to over-use antibiotics and I believe we generally have a much better ability to cater to our individual animals and give them only what they need when they need it, as opposed to treating an entire herd with antibiotics as a preventive. If they need to stop large-scale antibiotic use, it would make more sense to offer only small bottles OTC and require all large purchases to be made through a vet. It would be more costly for a large operation to buy a bunch of small bottles of antibiotic at the local feed store than to call a vet for a bulk purchase. Of course, I don't really think going through the vet is going to fix this problem anyway. I'll bet a lot of vets are willing to prescribe whatever a large operator wants just to keep the customer happy. Large operations are bread and butter.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> Not all people do. We need these medications for sick people and animals, and over-use is rapidly destroying this opportunity. Here, for example, we have resistent tuberculosis coming in from the east. How are things in America with, for example, that "MRSA"?


Yes, thats very true. But I think they are going about it wrong way. Yes, I think we need stricter laws, but this isn't the way to do it. It's the large scale feed/cattle lots that mainly abuse antibiotics. Small scale farms are just that, small. We only use it as needed since the price adds up sooner or later. The large scale operations who have little concern with animal welfare just use abuse it. As a lot of people pointed out(on FB group) usually they have onsite vets anyways who provide it, so this is really just going to affect the smaller majority of farms. There was some great ideas mentioned, that I think would be much better. Such as individual does bottles, selling for the same price it cost to treat multiple animals at this time(usually about 20-30USD) but to treat just one animal. Or having to sign up for a sort of registry to get it, and having a vet come out once are verify you for it, after that you can only buy a certain amount. Such as 50ml per 60-90 days depending on the amount of animals you have. And you can only get more outside of that, from a vet. Those seemed like much better options to me. I just can't see myself having to pay thousands of dollars for farm visits and checks on every animal etc. If they end up getting pneumonia, or Chlamydia. And if there was a very time strained infection that kills quick, my vet requires an appointment be set EVEN for emergency visits, and there is only one vet at my clinic legally allowed to work on ruminants so if she's gone. Well, that goat wouldn't have a chance:shrug:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I’m In California and have been dealing with this. I really really hate it especially because I don’t have a vet. It’s not that I need to use them all that much it’s that I hate the idea I can’t easily get my hands on them when I do need them.
I do agree that antibiotics are over used. This isn’t going to be a popular reply and I’m sure I’m going to upset a lot of people, and I’m sorry. How many sites or times have you read or heard of people suggesting or giving antibiotics when it is not 100% needed. The goat is off, it coughed once, I put my clean finger in a doe to see if she was open, your doe aborted? Pull out the la200 and treat for chlamydia. I’m NOT saying everyone does this and I can’t say that I wasn’t guilty of following bad advise which had me giving antibiotics when it wasn’t needed. But a lot of people are guilty of “better safe then sorry” which is part of the issue. I actually see it more in small scale operations then big ones. A bottle of antibiotics won’t break us, it will if we if haphazardly was giving it to 100’s of head of stock. No that is not true for EVERY large scale but for a lot it is, the same as what I call homeowners (small scale).
But it’s not just us. It’s also vets. I see so many posts that clearly the vets are clueless! That’s why I don’t have a vet. The few that are willing to treat goats are stupid. I had a kid 2 week old kid with a lump on its neck, the vet tested for CL (eyeroll) and gave me la200 to use every 3 days. He never even attempted to see what the lump was beyond CL. It was basically the same story for a kid with a broken leg, give some antibiotic every other day.
It is also doctors. They throw antibiotics at us too. My daughter was on a low dose antibiotic for 2 years, they could have just fixed the kid like I told them too but nope. My sister was sick, they gave her antibiotics and said let’s see if that takes care of it. If your still sick come back and that means that it’s not XYZ so we will then treat for ABC. 
So it is not just 1 persons fault and I don’t think taking antibiotics away from the public for livestock is the answer. This will probably pass, people will complain that meat prices are so high because there will be losses, and then in 10-15 years they will be scratching their head saying nothing ever got better. But we are the easy ones to pick on.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Oliveoil said:


> ...We have a good goat vet here that will give us bottles of OTC medications if we request them, such as Nuflor, BoSe, etc...


Good post, quick factual correction though. Those drugs you named are already Rx, not OTC.
I Do agree with you on people are trying to fix problems and are targeting the wrong culprits. This particular action won't help especially if they don't address the issue of antibiotics in the feeds and minerals.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

mariarose said:


> antibiotics in the feeds and minerals.


Oh, still so in America? Brrrr!

Here on the Goat Spot, I find people being both intelligent and willing to learn. But, even here, I have many times read entries like "Give some penicillin just in case". And every time I remember a dialogue I overheard some years ago:

Goat Owner: I was giving the medicine intravenously.
Other Person: You mean intramuscularly?
Goat Owner: Yes, intravenously.

True, this goat owner had attended school for just 6 years, but this conversation convinced me that he was not among the most intelligent.

I fear I am convinced that the microbes are more "intelligent" than we are, they have lived on this earth much longer than we have.
:hide:


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Good post, quick factual correction though. Those drugs you named are already Rx, not OTC.
> I Do agree with you on people are trying to fix problems and are targeting the wrong culprits. This particular action won't help especially if they don't address the issue of antibiotics in the feeds and minerals.


 Thank you Mariarose. I didn't realize that is what I had said--I meant RX, not OTC. That was what I was thinking when I was typing I guess that wasn't what I typed!


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 3, 2018)

Jessica84 said:


> I'm In California and have been dealing with this. I really really hate it especially because I don't have a vet. It's not that I need to use them all that much it's that I hate the idea I can't easily get my hands on them when I do need them.
> I do agree that antibiotics are over used. This isn't going to be a popular reply and I'm sure I'm going to upset a lot of people, and I'm sorry. How many sites or times have you read or heard of people suggesting or giving antibiotics when it is not 100% needed. The goat is off, it coughed once, I put my clean finger in a doe to see if she was open, your doe aborted? Pull out the la200 and treat for chlamydia. I'm NOT saying everyone does this and I can't say that I wasn't guilty of following bad advise which had me giving antibiotics when it wasn't needed. But a lot of people are guilty of "better safe then sorry" which is part of the issue. I actually see it more in small scale operations then big ones. A bottle of antibiotics won't break us, it will if we if haphazardly was giving it to 100's of head of stock. No that is not true for EVERY large scale but for a lot it is, the same as what I call homeowners (small scale).
> But it's not just us. It's also vets. I see so many posts that clearly the vets are clueless! That's why I don't have a vet. The few that are willing to treat goats are stupid. I had a kid 2 week old kid with a lump on its neck, the vet tested for CL (eyeroll) and gave me la200 to use every 3 days. He never even attempted to see what the lump was beyond CL. It was basically the same story for a kid with a broken leg, give some antibiotic every other day.
> It is also doctors. They throw antibiotics at us too. My daughter was on a low dose antibiotic for 2 years, they could have just fixed the kid like I told them too but nope. My sister was sick, they gave her antibiotics and said let's see if that takes care of it. If your still sick come back and that means that it's not XYZ so we will then treat for ABC.
> So it is not just 1 persons fault and I don't think taking antibiotics away from the public for livestock is the answer. This will probably pass, people will complain that meat prices are so high because there will be losses, and then in 10-15 years they will be scratching their head saying nothing ever got better. But we are the easy ones to pick on.


:upthumbup)


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I do have to disagree, the whole reasoning for this pull, is blamed on the large meat and dairy industry, not the small farms, hobby farms or pet goat owners. 
So, we are now suffering from what they have done, not what we have done. Which is so unfair. 

Pulling OTC antibiotics is ridiculous, 
because larger dairies or beef industries buy it in bulk and normally do not buy from TSC or other feed stores, as it is too expensive for them that way.

But yet, if they go through a vet for the antibiotics after the ban of OTC meds, they are still doing the same thing as before. Nothing has changed, but only the cost of the vet to come out each year. 

Those who give out wrong advice are not too smart and shouldn't give advice at all. 
On here, moderators are here to help and sometimes members do comment and some are wrong with their advice. We do correct it, if we feel it is wrong. 

When giving advice do remember, we cannot do hands on and when someone comes here for advice, we may feel it is better, to be safe than sorry, but do not always tell breeders that. It is when the symptoms are concerning, we will indeed recommend antibiotics, from time to time.
That is why, we always ask for temp on a sick animal first, before recommending antibiotics. 

Just my :2c:


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> I do have to disagree, the whole reasoning for this pull, is blamed on the large meat and dairy industry, not the small farms, hobby farms or pet goat owners.
> So, we are now suffering from what they have done, not what we have done. Which is so unfair.
> 
> Pulling OTC antibiotics is ridiculous,
> ...


:nod:


Jessica84 said:


> How many sites or times have you read or heard of people suggesting or giving antibiotics when it is not 100% needed. The goat is off, it coughed once, I put my clean finger in a doe to see if she was open, your doe aborted? Pull out the la200 and treat for chlamydia. I'm NOT saying everyone does this and I can't say that I wasn't guilty of following bad advise which had me giving antibiotics when it wasn't needed. But a lot of people are guilty of "better safe then sorry" which is part of the issue


That's very true, and I too was guilty of that when I first started. But like you, me, and probably lots of other people, we learn. When the large operations(not all, as there are some AWESOME dairy and beef cattle lots near me who care boatloads about their livestock and what/how they produce) use antibiotics it's very much on purpose. Smaller farms use it to treat one animal or maybe a few. After treatment for 1-10 days or so, they stop. Maybe the antibiotic did help, or maybe they gave them for no reason. Thats why temp is so important. I only give antibiotics when they have a temp, mixed with other symptoms signaling infection that will not go away on its own, or will be risking that goats life. The larger scale farms use it as a preventive and just give, give, give for no reason and don't stop giving even if the animals has never shown any signs of infection in the first place. At least that's what I've seen/read and I do know what we read may never be correct. So just personally, I do feel lots of smaller farms do abuse it, but definitely not with that intent(at least not most) and not on such a large scale.


mariarose said:


> This particular action won't help especially if they don't address the issue of antibiotics in the feeds and minerals.


I may been living under a rock, but I've never heard of this:hide: How could one find out if their feeds/minerals have antibiotics in them? I looked on the tags and didn't see anything, and definitely don't want to be feeding them it if it's for antibiotics.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

SandyNubians said:


> I may been living under a rock, but I've never heard of this:hide: How could one find out if their feeds/minerals have antibiotics in them? I looked on the tags and didn't see anything, and definitely don't want to be feeding them it if it's for antibiotics.


There are quite a few that will say "Medicated". I'm assuming that's the ones they are talking about...


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

I attended a meeting this past week and this subject was discussed.
The FDA has been spot checking animals sold at sale barns around the country for years. 
Many animals are testing positive for antibiotics. People are treating animals, and taking them to the sale barn without allowing the proper withdrawal time. That is NOT large producers doing this, it's small producers.

It is going to happen. I would suggest that everyone establish a relationship with a vet if you are to continue keeping goats.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Learning what you are looking at/for will help that. @SandyNubians

For instance if you are aware that an ingredient ending in -cin is an antibiotic, then you don't have to know everything about every ingredient.

It's usually put there to help animals in feedlots stay healthier longer. Many of them are there because they cause a weight gain in animals (including people)

Nobody's fault, really. People understandably want cheap food, and the producers will do what they must to provide it. Since they've been doing it so long, it's become the traditional way, and you know that's difficult to see a problem with.

Aureomycin...
Sorry. Be right back

I'm back. Aureomycin is one of the ingredients in all the Cargill Right Now minerals EXCEPT for Onyx. Because I knew about the -cin and -mycin, I caught that was an antibiotic

Here is a page that explains it in very simple terms.
https://www.drugs.com/pro/aureomycin.html

So, This is just one aspect of it, but it is significant.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

This is not new, it has been experimented a few years back with medicated feed first. 
And now to OTC meds.

As I mentioned prior, it originated from big producers of food-producing animals, not auction animals, which we know, is a bad place for the sick animals and are possibly being medicated.

There are rules at auctions, they must notify the auction, of an animal who has been medicated, so the buyer knows and waits out the withdrawal period or to not take the animal in until the antibiotics are gone from their system. but not all do this, which is sad.

This is straight from FDA, years ago in a trial period (volunteer):
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/phasing-out-certain-antibiotic-use-farm-animals

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2018/12/fda-reports-major-drop-antibiotics-food-animals


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Oliveoil said:


> Thank you Mariarose. I didn't realize that is what I had said--*I meant RX*, not OTC. That was what I was thinking when I was typing I guess that wasn't what I typed!


Please, friends, what is RX? Requiring a prescription from a doctor/veterinarian?


SandyNubians said:


> (... there are some AWESOME dairy and beef cattle lots near me who care boatloads about their livestock and what/how they produce)


:nod: (I have seen both good and bad small places. Not seen so many big ones, but one difficulty in big operations is of course that you can not really _see_ every individual every day, if you have 500.

And the infection pressure is of course higher when there are more animals.)


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Yes that is what RX is


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Even though a lot of vets don't know a lot about goats, if a vet can be found in your area that will look at goats, get a working relationship going and don't act like they are dumb for not knowing about goats. (In other words, sort of be humble, stroke their ego!). I hate having to act, but they have egos as they are the "professional" and I need their permission for RX meds. 

Nothing a vet hates worse than to be told "I saw it on the Internet". They seem to shut right down and label (falsely of course) you as a "know it all". If you kind of say, "in my experience, I've found that this condition may be caused by _________, and this medication__________ has worked in the past", the vet will probably be much more willing to work with you and eventually all you need to do is call and say you need BO-Se or whatever. 

Once they know you aren't a jerk and are not over medicating, most vets will work with you. (In a perfect world!) 

Unfortunately, this FDA thing isn't going to go away, drugs shelf life is only so long, so we are all going to be forced to deal with all the bureaucratic nonsense!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Another thing that will go along with the vet directive and RX meds is the Scrapie program. The govt. wants a paper trail of every goat and sheep, via the scrapie ear tag or ID pellet (hopefully in 2020 or 2021). (I hate ear tags) Since goats and sheep are ultimately meat animals that can enter the human food chain at any time, their lives have to be tracked.

Very few goats are born, live their full lives at the same farm and die there. Most get sold at some point. 

If you sell a goat/sheep you have to keep the name of the buyer. And the animal has to be tagged. 10 years down the road, if it comes up with scrapie they want to follow it back to its birth place. 
And, any animals/ farms will be tested and if scrapie is discovered, well, it won't be good. (Total destruction of the livestock that could be affected by scrapie). 

It's basically a Universal ID program. 

44 goats have tested positive for Scrapie since 2004.


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## Ron at BFAD (May 2, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> It already happened in California.
> So now sadly, it seems to be spreading to other States.
> 
> It made me very angry too, when it happen a couple years ago.
> ...


I need to share a point here which I think a lot of people are overlooking. I'm type 2 diabetic, in 2000 I was diagnosed with the disease. After being on the pills for a while my doctor and I felt that insulin would help. Why I don't know but the prescription he wrote was supplying me with more doses then I really used and so it stock piled. When my insurance ran out i still had a stock pile. 5 years after the expiration dates i was still using that medicine and it was working well. You may want to stock pile some of your most important meds for your stock. In a dark cool place they keep very fresh and usable. For a very long time. It's a thought because we're not going to win this one, someomes getting a kick back and its not the producer. It's the same way with produces in the stores, a lot of times those dates are so the manufactures can move the product


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## Nommie Bringeruvda Noms (Nov 7, 2019)

So, speaking as a newbie, what antibiotics are most commonly used for what, and where do I get them, please??


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> So, we are now suffering from what they have done, not what we have done. Which is so unfair.


True. 


IHEARTGOATS said:


> That is NOT large producers doing this, it's small producers.


And this is also true. Small or large farm, the important thing here is to use our brains, and not let the bad microbes take over our world ...

Problem, though, that some people seem to have no brain. (Or no heart, for that matter!)


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Goats Rock said:


> Another thing that will go along with the vet directive and RX meds is the Scrapie program. The govt. wants a paper trail of every goat and sheep, via the scrapie ear tag or ID pellet (hopefully in 2020 or 2021). (I hate ear tags) Since goats and sheep are ultimately meat animals that can enter the human food chain at any time, their lives have to be tracked.
> 
> Very few goats are born, live their full lives at the same farm and die there. Most get sold at some point.
> 
> ...


Maybe this could be the topic for an entire thread? Ear tags, buying and selling, dangerous diseases - and the wish from the authorities to have total control ...


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I found this on FB hopefully it goes threw. 
https://www.regulations.gov/docket?D=FDA-2019-D-3614


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Sorry forgot the screen shot


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Good idea! Having no FB, I guess I can not like.


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## Nyjah (Mar 5, 2017)

If you live in a reasonable distance consider Mexico as an option. They sell all medications otc there. I’ve purchase most of my rx farm animal meds there as well as human meds during periods when I’ve not had insurance. 

As for the general topic, as a former microbologist/biochemist I get the theory,but question actions taken by the fda. Is it really prophylactic feeding of animals causing MRSA or is it just a natural outcome of heavy human antibiotic use for 70 years.


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