# Vaccinating Kids ??



## IceDog (Aug 1, 2010)

How young is it acceptable to vaccinate kids?

What age is it ideal to give the first vaccination?

Thanks!


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I do not know if this is ideal but this is what i do.
I give 1cc of covaction 8, 1cc of bocee, 1cc of A and E vitamins before the kids are 24 hours old


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

first, I'm no friend of vaccinating young animals before it's needed. Other people might think differently.

Why?

It's known from dogs that the antibodies passed via the colostrum from mother to pup will effectively block vaccines for several weeks (up to 12 weeks) after birth until they are "used" up and the pups own immune system will start working properly. So every vaccination given within this period is basically useless and has to be repeated.

I don't doubt that there's a similar time frame in goats as they also get colostrum from their mothers but I'm quite sure that nobody bothered to do studies on this yet.

Second - every vaccine includes heavy metals: aluminium and a quicksilver derivate that can be harmful to young brains and nerve tissue (especially the quicksilver) because, the younger the animal is the less shielded with protective tissue are nerves and brain. Depending on the vaccine, formaldehyde and/or antibiotics that can cause damage to hearing or bone structure are also included (so check the label of the vaccine carefully!).

Therefore my opinion is to weigh carefully the risks and benefits of vaccinating as soon as possible. Maybe it would be better to say "as soon as adviseable".


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## stinky (Jun 6, 2009)

For most of the reasons listed, and others, I don't use "experimental" toxins on my goats or my kids (offspring). Some of the toxins used in the US are banned in other countries as being unsafe. And periodically, they change the medicine because they aren't working right...hmmmmm
You want me to inject mercury?
Generally, the only exceptions...rabies and tetanus.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

Colostrum is only present for a few days the antibodies colostrum has is a shield that protects the kid until its immune system has had time to become active. Once colostrum is gone there in little protection for your kid. The antibodies the colostrum has do not trigger the kids body to produce the antibodies
Thus the need for vaccinations. 
the fear of trace amounts of metals in the vaccine is Illogical to me. Worrying about hearing loss and the little bone lose that MIGHT happen by giving vaccines. I just cannot comprehend that thought proses.

Clostridium Chauvoei, Septicum Haemolyticum, Novyi, Tetani, Perfringens Types C & D Bacterin-Toxoid all kill your kids. Losses from these diseases could be as high as 20% of your kids. worrying about the loss of hearing totally illogical.

the vaccination of my lambs and kids during the time they have colostrum was suggested by my vet. His reasoning was very logical. His logic is that the antibodies for Clostridium Chauvoei, Septicum Haemolyticum, Novyi, Tetani, Perfringens Types C & D Bacterin-Toxoid are only present in the ewe and doe for about 60 days. You need to vaccinate 30 days before birth. that leaves 30 days of antibodies that can be present in the milk, So if your doe dose not take the first cycle there is a good chance the kid will not have protection. The guarantee that your kids have protection no mater when they are born is worth the effort
there is also some thought that by vaccinating so young the immune system is more Vigorous and the antibodies last longer. 

Also there is a cost factor 5cc verses 2cc for 250 animals is huge.

The vaccination co doesnâ€™t want us to know this information they give us the least effective way to vaccinate our stock so they can sell more product.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

fivemoremiles said:


> the fear of trace amounts of metals in the vaccine is Illogical to me. Worrying about hearing loss and the little bone lose that MIGHT happen by giving vaccines. I just cannot comprehend that thought proses.


Well,

it maybe because if you haven't encountered loss through illness but loss/suffering from vaccination.

If you consider the still active praxis of yearly vaccination the amount of quicksilver and aluminium - that will be stored in the body - will sum up to a "nice" amount. Quicksilver will also pass the placental border and the next generation is at risk of a quicksilver poisoning already.

Having seen several horses that suffered from incureable lung damage after one flu shot too many, dogs with autoimmune diseases, cats with tumors that have clearly been caused by vaccines.

As I said, it's about weighing the risks.

If you say that the antibodies are gone as soon as the colostrum is done I would like to hear about your sources because in dogs and cats studies have proven, that antibodies will persist in the body of the pup longer than the colostrum.

I want my goats to be around me for 12-15 years, to grow slowly and healthy, not to die of cancer and, yes, not to die of preventable diseases. But all together makes me more sensible for the risks of vaccinating too early/too much.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/pu ... n-studies/

granted, many goats don't live a life as long as a dog or a cat but will be butchered much sooner.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

sanhestar
I think we are on the same page. 
the topic here is When to vaccinate Kids.
if it were when to vaccinate adults My answer would be, what for? It is not necessary and too costly.
my sheep and goats only get one vaccination in there life that is when they are 24 hours old.

by the way cats and dogs and horses are not ruminants and there liver functions differently. that is why a sheep and goat can eat Chocolate but a if a dog eats Chocolate it will make him very sick and can kill him. the immune systems of a sheep and goat are different too. so you can not compare apples to oranges.

Just a note i reread my post of july 10 and found some wording that didn't expressed my understand corectly. it is amazing what one word will do. and i have corrected them. sorry if that poorly written post that made your blood boil.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

fivemoremiles said:


> the immune systems of a sheep and goat are different too.


How so? Do they not develop immunity after exposure to an infectious agent? If the immune system is so different from cats and dogs, why should the same principles of vaccination work = introducing an infectious agent artifically to prompt an immune response?

I would still like to know how you know that the duration of antibodies from colostrum in goats is so much shorter that in dogs. Do you know of studies on that subject?


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

Experience that is how

about nine years ago i was fallowing the book when it can to my sheep herd. vacations and worming were by the book.
I gave 5cc of covexin 8 30 days before lambing just as the instructions said. 
that year i had about 150 ewes lamb. about 70 days after i had given the vaccination i had the last five ewes lamb they had 8 lambs 3 die from , Septicum Haemolyticum. I have a rule one died to bad three die you got a problem. so before the third lamb died i took it in to the vets to see what was going on. I am really lucky to have a great Ovine vet here in town
that is when i learned that the the antibodies from the vaccination do not transfer to the lamb after about 60 to 70 days. The vet then instructed me to give 1cc of Covexin to the other five lambs and that should end my troubles. I then asked next year can i skip vaccinating my ewes and only vaccinate my lambs. He didnt know how much of a a jolt to a lambs immune system it would be. but he felt it shouldn't be a problem. So for two years i watched for side effects and saw none. now 9 years later my herd is much larger and after 3000+ lamb vacations i am sold on the program.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

OK,

so you know that vaccinating 30 days before birth is not effective enough to create antibodies.

Have you ever have some of your lambs tested how high the titer for clostridium haemolyticum (to name just this one) is BEFORE you vaccinate them?

What's interesting is that in Germany and Switzerland the recomendations for this vaccine are to vaccinate 2-3 weeks prior to birth (not 30 days).


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

It is 2 to 6 weeks prior to lambing with covexin 8. Four weeks was Just good middle of the road number. it also corresponded with my shearing there wool. the ewes are in the chute waiting to get sheared and it was easy to give the shot then.
covexin 8 also wanted me to give another booster to the lamb at 6 to 10 weeks I do not do that never did.
once lambing starts now days an easy day is 16 ewes lambing, during the flood i will have 32 ewes lamb a day taking time to do that kind of testing just is not in the books. but it would be interesting to know.

my kids get there vacations when i dehorned.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

I had some time today to google a bit.

this study is about the prevalence of maternal antibodies against peste des
petits (I'd have to translate that) from vaccinated mothers. The tested lambs showed no antibodies after 75 to 90 days.

The book "Diseases of Sheep" mentions a immunity from maternal antibodies against sheep pox for up to 6 months.

And in CAE-testing it is mentioned not to test for the first 6 months because remaining maternal antibodies can lead to a false positive result

There are several infections, against which immunity (either own or maternal) isn't lasting or will buckle when challenged (bluetongue being one).

This study mentions the passive proctection against clostridium perfringens from maternal antibodies for 29 days.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2895443

The studies also mention that the amount of maternal antibodies that are passed is individual and can vary from animal to animal.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Five has it right. Then you CD&T when you dis bud (2 weeks). Also, have a friend who runs 200 head of diary and 200 head of boar. She does the 8 way. She started it after one year she was hit hard with floppy. Lost like 60 kids. Her vet told her to use the 8 way and she has not had 1 case of floppy kid or white muscle since. I have no knowledge of the 8 way myself, but that seems impressive to me.


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## StykbowMT225 (Feb 21, 2012)

Holy cow!

I don't know "wether" to vaccinate my 7 week old wether or not. Does anyone have any advice on what I should do with my little ober? Should I call a sheep rancher? Haha!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

OK... I am going to say this now before more flawed posts are written. Heavy metals are found in nearly all soils, and forage. A kid will get more heavy metals from a mothers milk the first 6 months then from vaccines it will get its first full year.

Are there "heavy metals" in vaccines? Yes. They are there to server a purpose as with out them as either a stimulant or even as a cleaning agent, a vaccine wouldnt work as well or not at all. So does this mean you shouldnt vaccinate? Its absurd to use this as a reason not to. Loss mineral salt, all stock / dairy ration grains have heavy metals ADDED TO THEM to benefit livestock. Would you refuse to feed them as well? Of course not. All creatures need heavy metals and seeing how we are speaking of such minimal amounts, heavy metals shouldnt even be considered when vaccinating.

The best means to figure if you need to vaccinate is how you manage your animals. How dirty are their conditions. Do they sleep on their own poo? Eat off the ground that is covered in poo? To many animals to closely penned together? A mothers milk is fine if they have the space that is required such as a wild ruminant. But once you start to "feed lot" your animals, vaccines are a must. Think of the difference between say Montana and Cambodia. 

This also applies to de worming. The tighter the living conditions, the more you need to adjust your worming habits.

So do you vaccinate? Yes, I believe you do and you do it when and how, with the correct amounts as is widely known and suggested.
Can you get away with not doing it? Sure, a mothers milk is a great immunity builder.
Can either way be dangerous? Of course. But I have never had nor herd of anyone losing hole kid crops because they vaccinated. Yet on the other hand, I have heard the opposite when someone failed to vaccinate. Granted, I deal with large herds, and that is a big factor, as stated above.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Dave,

please do me the courtesy not to label my postings as flawed. I have spent years doing my due diligence and research - as far as available - on vaccination and their pros and cons.

I also believe that, if an owner is unsure about any procedure to be done on his/her animal that he/she should know about all risks and benefits involved.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

All posts are flawed, as are mine. We cant know everything, all the time about every subject. I to have researched this subject as well and i wasnt saying your point of view is flawed but your definition and facts behind it. For instance, the term heavy metal (poisoning) has been called a "misinterpretation" in an IUPAC technical report due to the contradictory definitions and its lack of a "coherent scientific basis (a copy and paste of a wiki page on the subject). A closer but more correct term is toxic metals. Which include mercury. Aluminum though does not fix into the toxic metals classification as it does have beneficial effects in both humans and livestock. So if you classify a beneficial "heavy metal" in with one such as mercury which has no know benefits, you are giving misinformation. Not to mention, it is widely know and written into factual evidence that the amounts of beneficial "heavy metals" added to not only vaccines are in such minute amounts as to be physically impossible to cause "heavy metal" poisoning. Now this is not to say you cant have adverse reactions if by chance you may live near a smelting plant where the pollutants have gotten into the surrounding area in high levels. ie if you live next to an aluminum plant, then yes, I would be much more worried about vaccines but even more so, how far away I need to be buying feed and not letting my livestock out on pasture.

I hope this clears up the flawed statement as again, I was not taking aim on your opinion. The REST of my post was doing that  And as a firm believer in vaccines (such as a CD&T is a MUST when housing goats with horses) I feel its my duty to defend the "other side of the coin" so to speak. You believe its a foolish risk to vaccinate and I think its a foolish choice not to. Perfect. Lets keep the chat going and see if we cant hammer out a happy medium  or at the least a better understanding.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

as I'm not a native English speaker I don't see how I could keep up with you if you take excemption at such translation quirks like heavy metals vs. toxic metals.


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

The vaccination schedule I go by is on www.tennesseemeatgoats.com.
she has been in the meat goat business for 30 plus years. 
Click on articles and then click on Deworming.
At the bottom of the deworming article is the vaccination schedule she
uses. 
I asked if it makes a difference if they are bottle babys or 
Dam raised. She said "no"

She is against the 8 way. But that is what is available here
in Oregon.. And it costs too much to have the goat vaccinations
shipped here from Jeffers.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Have never used the 8 way myself but do have a friend who swears by it BUT she also runs 400+ goats and with that many Id guess you would see a marked improvement using an 8 way vs. others as you are much more likely to deal with a larger range of problems.


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## Dwite Sharp (Jun 2, 2012)

WOW! Has the smoke cleared?
Now it's my turn.
I vaccinate all my pregnant does 30 days before their due date ( the passed on immunity will be at its peak when she kids ) and I vaccinate the kids at 30 days and again 3 weeks later. All goats get a booster once a year. I vaccinate for CD&T only, using Intervet vaccine. With this brand the kids dose is only 1cc and the adult dose is 2cc's, a smaller dose leaving less of a chance for the dreaded vaccination lump. I vaccinate behind the front leg in the loose skin, the goats don't feel it, and if it does create a lump it won't interfere with a saddle or cinch. With the kids I give the second vaccination on the other side from where I gave the first.
I have had hundreds of goats and have NEVER had a problem, of any kind, with this method. After talking with the medical and research experts this is what I concluded to be the best approach. I will continue to do the same. If you've ever seen a goat with tetanus, I can't believe you would choose NOT to vaccinate.


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