# Doe Kid refusing Formula - Help!



## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Doe Kid approx 7 days old violently rejecting formula/bottle feeding, losing weight.

Doesn’t seem to have a sucking reflex. Sounds like she is chewing rocks. She nursed for at least 3 days but was stepped on by another goat (broken leg) so is now a bottle baby. Hydration was good at Vet on Thursday afternoon. Urination frequency/amount seems normal. Only 2 poos, none since late Thursday night. Gums pink. Mouth seems warm. Trying to eat everything except her formula. Not sure what to do to get her eating. Any help appreciated!!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Get a rectal temperature with a digital thermometer right away. 

Can you bring her out to dam to nurse instead?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Can you give her her moms milk in a bottle instead of formula? Or, even whole cows milk with a pinch of baking soda in the first bottle of the day? Are you warming it up to 101* before you feed it to her?
She needs to poop, have you given her an enema yet, that might be why she's not taking her bottle.

Here's a good link telling you the how's and why

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/constipationinne.html


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Get a rectal temperature with a digital thermometer right away.
> 
> Can you bring her out to dam to nurse instead?


Will any digital thermometer work?

Can't get to dam at the mo'. We had to bring her in to town.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

No milk from dam available right now, we brought her in to town with us to prevent her getting trampled.
Have warmed up her formula, but will try milk and baking soda. 

No experience with enemas, I am awaiting a call back from vet. She’s crying a lot.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Any baby rectal thermometer will work...digital works quickly so it's preferred to the analog type. 
Make sure she's staying warm. You can get a baby enema where you get the rectal thermometers too, they're easier than a syringe (no needle) but both work


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Poor thing, 
Here's a video that might help


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Are you warming it up to 101* before you feed it to her?

101* seems incredibly hot...?! I haven’t made it that hot before. Maybe slightly more than lukewarm. 

sorry I’m very clueless!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Yes. goats take milk much warmer than humans, and it needs to be 100-101* otherwise she'll have trouble digesting it. 
Bottle babies can be a challenge. If she hasn't pooped and she's not eating getting her to the vet asap is a good idea.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree get a vet right away.

She needs a enema.

Stop the formula, feeding mama's milk is best but if there is no access, get store bought whole cows milk at the store. Be sure to warm it up to proper temp and test it on your arm, so it isn't too hot.

Get a temp right away.
A digital one is best and quickest.
Normal temp is 101.5 to 103.5.
Anything higher may mean pneumonia or infection. 

Sub temp, you need to get the temp up to at least 100 degree's before feeding.

If the leg is swollen, the baby may need banamine. 
May be in too much pain to eat.

Give some fortified vit B complex SQ, I would give 1cc to 1 1/2 cc's.
Giving it SQ, gets it into the system quicker. It helps stimulate appetite.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> If the leg is swollen, the baby may need banamine.
> May be in too much pain to eat.
> 
> Give some fortified vit B complex SQ, I would give 1cc to 1 1/2 cc's.
> Giving it SQ, gets it into the system quicker. It helps stimulate appetite.


I will switch to whole cow's milk. I don't think I have been making the formula hot enough, if 100 - 101 is optimal.

Belly is not distended, she's quite thin, not sure if she's constipated or just not taking in enough formula to have to poo.

She was given Banamine, Excenel and Dexmethasone at Vet when they set her leg.

What does SQ mean?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

SQ means under the skin not in the muscle. You pinch up a tent of skin and inject into the tent long side of the needle against the goat.. hole opening towards you


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes it really does need to be 100*F to feed. Even the fats won't dissolve at lukewarm. And if they have already nursed from dam, they will often reject cool milk until they get used to the formula. 

How much does she weigh?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I use a normal human digital thermometer made for mouths


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Since you mentioned she is grinding her teeth, that means she is in pain. It may be leg pain or gut pain.

I bet she isn't constipated, just hasn't eaten enough but tough to tell not being there. 

Is she on long term pain relief for the leg?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Since you mentioned she is grinding her teeth, that means she is in pain. It may be leg pain or gut pain.
> 
> I bet she isn't constipated, just hasn't eaten enough but tough to tell not being there.
> 
> Is she on long term pain relief for the leg?


Nothing ongoing for pain. Vet said she would heal up quickly; we go back in two weeks for assessment and new cast to accommodate her growth.

If the intermittent tooth grinding is pain, I'm thinking gut since she is running and hopping around as much as she can despite the cast.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Yes it really does need to be 100*F to feed. Even the fats won't dissolve at lukewarm. And if they have already nursed from dam, they will often reject cool milk until they get used to the formula.
> 
> How much does she weigh?





SalteyLove said:


> Yes it really does need to be 100*F to feed. Even the fats won't dissolve at lukewarm. And if they have already nursed from dam, they will often reject cool milk until they get used to the formula.
> 
> How much does she weigh?


Good info, thanks. She had been nursing until she was hurt. Not sure how consistent her feeding was post-injury, her brother was pushing her off quite a bit.

I'm embarrassed to say I don't own a thermometer or a scale other than for food and so I would guess 8 - 10 lbs (including cast). Her vet paperwork did not list a weight.

I tried cow's milk just now and no luck. I have called in the cavalry and have a thermometer and goat milk on the way.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

What type of bottle and nipple are you using? Pritchard teat? Red and yellow 

I'm going to post a link to another thread of hints for convincing them to take a bottle. Basically, make it warm dark and fuzzy like under the dam. So 100* F bottle, warm towel, cover the eyes with towel and tuck towards your armpit to get her to "punch"/ root the udder/bottle.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/bottle-feeding-problems.194563/


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/violet-the-armpit.203587/


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

When she's eating again if you want to switch her to whole cows milk go in stages 3/4 goat 1/4 cow then half and half etc but make sure when feeding cows milk you put a pinch of baking soda (1/8th tsp) in the first bottle of the day. I got a 5 week old to take a bottle here...maybe this will help
https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/orphan-rescue-need-advice-asap.206385/#post-2262567


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

When bottle babies refuse to eat it is often due to either being over fed, causing constipation or scours or formula isn't setting well or not prepared proper. With her grinding her teeth, I would think tummy hurts. A shot of cd antitoxin would be good. I would also give a gentle warm enema and feed quality electros her next bottle or two, then once she is feeling well feed Whole cows milk at proper amount. If she continues to have stomach pains, Milk of Magnesia can help (1/4 cc per pound). 
When she is ready for milk, Get her weight and start her on 10% of her body weight in oz and adjust as needed, She should have a flat but firm tummy, not too ponchy and not sunken in. 
How to figure weight in oz: weigh her and multiply that by 16, then multiply that by 10% to see how much she needs PER DAY then divide into 4 bottles. So EX: if she is 8 pounds times 16 = 128 oz. 128 times 10%= 12.8 oz of milk per day divided into 4 bottles is 3.2 oz a bottle.
Its important to check babies tummy after each bottle and adjust +/- as needed. Re weigh baby weekly and adjust her amount. 10% is just a starting point. Add a pinch of baking soda in first bottle of the day


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> What type of bottle and nipple are you using? Pritchard teat? Red and yellow
> 
> I'm going to post a link to another thread of hints for convincing them to take a bottle. Basically, make it warm dark and fuzzy like under the dam. So 100* F bottle, warm towel, cover the eyes with towel and tuck towards your armpit to get her to "punch"/ root the udder/bottle.


Yes, using Pritchard teat. She hates it. Will only accept it into the side of her mouth and she chews on it like mad, BUT she's at least getting a couple oz!

Will post general update below.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Heidi77 said:


> Yes, using Pritchard teat. She hates it. Will only accept it into the side of her mouth and she chews on it like mad, BUT she's at least getting a couple oz!
> 
> Will post general update below.


I used a medium flow human nipple and for me it worked better.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SO.... 
Baby girl got somewhat listless kind of suddenly yesterday afternoon, hadn’t had more than a couple oz of formula over the last two days so I took her to an after hours vet.

She recommended goat replacement formula instead of the general livestock kind, also a different nipple (she said possibly even a different type of rubber might help). Gave her SQ fluids, said she was dehydrated but not terribly. Fecal normal, but her stool was a little runny and sticky, also orange-ish in color. 
(She still hadn’t had a poo since Thursday night at that point). 
Sent us home with calf scour (1/2 cc per day) and SQ fluids (123 mL per day).

While we were at the vet she started trying to latch onto my earlobe and got quite sassy and tried to bite me when I pulled my head away. She was obviously starving so I got her a bottle with the new formula and nipple as soon as we got home. She finally ate almost 3 oz which is a record and her tummy was almost flush with her rib cage so I thought best not to push it. 

She’s been pretty calm/subdued this morning but finally had a poo, it was solid but pale and slightly sticky. Looked like it might possibly have some dark (dried) blood in it. Not sure what to make of this, but happy things seem to be moving now that she’s had some food. Any thoughts appreciated. 

I think she would drink more but she only accepts the nipple on the side of her mouth, so she is not latching and it’s slow going getting even an oz into her. 

Thanks for all the links, I am going to try some of those suggestions to reposition her and see if I can’t get her to latch correctly.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Try a different nipple. I'm still not sold on replacers at all there have been folks who've lost their bottle babies because of them. I personally will only use whole cows milk with a pinch of baking soda in the first bottle of the day. I'm really glad she's doing better though! Great job! Try cupping her muzzle in your hand and tilting her head up to get her to nurse in a more natural position that'll help.
Did you feed her during the night? Babies need small frequent feedings like every 4 hours till they're 2 weeks then three -four times a day then you can work into larger, less often feedings as they're taking in more solids like hay and grain.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

It is still best to use whole cow milk from the store, over replacers.  
Glad she ate some! Another thing you might try is seeing if she'll drink out of a dish. I had a calf and a goat kid that absolutely under no circumstances would take a bottle, but the calf instantly took to a bucket, and the goat kid decide to choose drinking out of the top of the LamBar over using the nipple or taking a bottle. 
If not, you just have a really frustrating fight on your hands.  I hope she gives in and starts consistently eating well soon!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I do agree, good advice given.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> Try a different nipple. I'm still not sold on replacers at all there have been folks who've lost their bottle babies because of them. I personally will only use whole cows milk with a pinch of baking soda in the first bottle of the day.
> 
> Did you feed her during the night?


I am planning to get a couple different nipples tomorrow and will see if she prefers them, or possibly a bowl.

She's much more feisty and "normal" today, been biting my fingers and ears.

I am giving her the Manna Pro Goat Electrolytes and she's been eating the replacer since last night. We have been doing small frequent feedings since she still acts hungry but she's only taking about 2 oz at a time. So far today she's had approx 8 oz total replacer and finished two 1/2 cup Electrolyte bottles so I feel like she is on the right path! I will get up at 2 AM again to offer her bottle.

I am wondering if I should try the cow's milk again. What does the baking soda do?


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Ranger1 said:


> It is still best to use whole cow milk from the store, over replacers.
> Glad she ate some! Another thing you might try is seeing if she'll drink out of a dish.
> If not, you just have a really frustrating fight on your hands.  I hope she gives in and starts consistently eating well soon!


You're the 4th or 5th person that has recommended cow's milk. A random shopper in Tractor Supply said I should not buy the replacer as well. I also have goat's milk, would that be better still?

She's taking the bottle much better now but she's still very reluctant to keep it in her mouth. I will try a bowl tomorrow. Thanks!


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

I forgot to ask. Someone posted that she needs about 10% of her body weight in oz of milk/formula per day.

She’s about 8 or 9 days old and weighed (at the vet yesterday PM) 7.6 lbs. I’m pretty sure her cast is at least 2 lbs of that.
Am I correct in thinking she needs at least 9 oz/day initially and then moving up from there? 
Per the formula packages she should be getting 5 oz 4 x day. Seems like a big discrepancy. However, she is murdering my fingers and ears despite having 2 oz an hour or so ago. She just hasn’t had a poo since the one this morning so I am leery of over feeding. Thanks so much for all the advise.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Heidi77 said:


> I forgot to ask. Someone posted that she needs about 10% of her body weight in oz of milk/formula per day.
> 
> She's about 8 or 9 days old and weighed (at the vet yesterday PM) 7.6 lbs. I'm pretty sure her cast is at least 2 lbs of that.
> Am I correct in thinking she needs at least 9 oz/day initially and then moving up from there?
> Per the formula packages she should be getting 5 oz 4 x day. Seems like a big discrepancy. However, she is murdering my fingers and ears despite having 2 oz an hour or so ago. She just hasn't had a poo since the one this morning so I am leery of over feeding. Thanks so much for all the advise.


Have you tried tucking her under your arm and covering her eyes when you give her the bottle like suggested? Some it makes it easier at first then once they really figure out the nipple they do not care. They just want the nip lol. Her tum should feel full but not tight or rounded out when she is done eating. If she seems really hungry after the two oz try giving her two a d a half or three at a time and see how she does. The baking soda pinch is to help settle the milk amd not get bloated. But only in the first bottle of the day is usually fine. Sonce she has not been eating well it may be a day before she has anything leftover to make poop with. As long as she is bouncy and happy she is fine with no more poop today.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Sorry, goats milk would be great if you could make sure you can get enough for the next 3+months otherwise I'd just use whole cows milk, not 2%, or low fat, but whole milk. I'd try 2.5 or 3 oz next feeding to see how her stomach looks/feels. It's better she's a little hungry rather than overstuffed. Babies chew on everything so it's better to stop her biting you now rather than as a yearling taking chunks out of your fingers. Put some hay in for her to nibble on instead. You're doing great! Hang in there.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

If she roots in your hair then put the bottle near there, I know it's insane but a good latch is important for her to get a full meal without a bunch of air. 

Are you holding the bottle nearly vertical and about at the same height from the floor as her dam? You won't her head in the same way as nursing, even better if she is kneeling in her front legs!


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> If she roots in your hair then put the bottle near there, I know it's insane but a good latch is important for her to get a full meal without a bunch of air.
> 
> Are you holding the bottle nearly vertical and about at the same height from the floor as her dam? You won't her head in the same way as nursing, even better if she is kneeling in her front legs!


She doesn't root in my hair but she tries to eat my earlobes off. She goes crazy. I have tried holding the nipple near my ear but then she just bites my jaw. ‍♀

I have tried holding her inside my fuzzy robe with the hood up over us and she will eat, but I still have to fight to get her to take or hold the nipple for more than a couple swallows. Bottle is vertical. She will not stand or kneel or even lay down to eat, I literally have to restrain her under one arm and then wedge my finger or the nipple into the side of her mouth. She then screams like I am killing her. ‍♀

But.. her activity is up and crying is down so I guess it's going well! Thanks so much for the help.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> Sorry, goats milk would be great if you could make sure you can get enough for the next 3+months otherwise I'd just use whole cows milk, not 2%, or low fat, but whole milk. I'd try 2.5 or 3 oz next feeding to see how her stomach looks/feels. It's better she's a little hungry rather than overstuffed. Babies chew on everything so it's better to stop her biting you now rather than as a yearling taking chunks out of your fingers. Put some hay in for her to nibble on instead. You're doing great! Hang in there.


I have goat's milk but it's from the store. It's Meyenberg Goat Milk.

I'll get her a little hay. She wanders around and tries to nibble everything in my house, do they make goat toys?!?

Thanks for all the tips and the encouragement!


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> Have you tried tucking her under your arm and covering her eyes when you give her the bottle like suggested? Some it makes it easier at first then once they really figure out the nipple they do not care. They just want the nip lol. Her tum should feel full but not tight or rounded out when she is done eating. If she seems really hungry after the two oz try giving her two a d a half or three at a time and see how she does. The baking soda pinch is to help settle the milk amd not get bloated. But only in the first bottle of the day is usually fine. Sonce she has not been eating well it may be a day before she has anything leftover to make poop with. As long as she is bouncy and happy she is fine with no more poop today.


Great to know. She seems to be initially very resistant and then kind of lazy about eating from the bottle, drinks, dribbles, swallows occasionally but mostly just freezes up towards the end of an oz or two. I have tried loads of positions, my fiancée has tried feeding her while I hold her and vice versa - it's just a fight. I have formula splattered on most of my furniture at this point. Lol

She's due for electrolytes soon. I may try that bowl that Ranger1 suggested!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Gah what a project, she should really get the hang of it by now!

I would try the black rubber lamb nipples and the human baby bottle as well. Since she goes for your skin, it's the texture of the prtichard nipple she hates. 

Honestly, it's not always this tough!


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Gah what a project, she should really get the hang of it by now!
> 
> I would try the black rubber lamb nipples and the human baby bottle as well. Since she goes for your skin, it's the texture of the prtichard nipple she hates.
> 
> Honestly, it's not always this tough!


I hope not!! We are struggling... tonight we are Miss Cranky Pants again and I'm thinking it's a bellyache. She drank 4 oz of electrolytes from a bowl... Which I was so relieved but then two hours later she is apparently hungry but has rejected goat milk, cow's milk, and her replacer from both bowl and bottle. We are grinding teeth and fussing. *sigh* Going to get different nipples in the AM. I'll try human baby nips or lamb. Something. (headsmash)


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Ok, I suggest you pick one form of milk and stick with it and nothing else. Goats hate change and since you're the surrogate momma you need to taste the same every time. (Aka bottle) she's hydrated now and so I'd stop the electrolytes and put plain water in her bowl. She knows a bottle means food, so she'll stop fighting after a bit and drink. Cup her chin and hold it in ....she'll get it.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

i agree


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Well. We’ve stuck with the replacer since she won’t touch other milk. She is still violently rejecting ALL bottled liquids. I have tried a variety of nipples and found one that she kind of tolerates, but she has to be forced to open her mouth and she’s still not engaging for more than a couple swallows and then she jerks away or just freezes up to the point where her formula just runs out of her mouth. She will occasionally sip a tiny bit of water or electrolytes from a bowl. 
She’s obviously starving and trying like mad to eat everything in sight (as long as it’s not actual food). She is fixated on ears and will punch and be aggressive if you try to prevent her from latching on to them. She’s still pretty spunky but she’s getting weaker. 

Recap:
Vet Thursday: Casted hind leg to hip. Gave Banamine, Dexmethasone, and Excenel.

Vet Saturday: Dehydrated. Rx 35 mL Lactated Ringer’s SQ, Fecal: Loose but Normal, Rx Calf Scour meds 1/2 cc x 5 days 

Vet checkup Tuesday : 1 mL Thiamine, B-Complex 1 mL, Excede 1 mL and Rx Metacam 1.5 mg Orally x 10 days

We’ve been giving Jump Start 5g daily for the last 2 days.
Temps have declined from 103.6 Saturday PM to 100.8 earlier today. 
Her poos have been getting gradually darker brown and less sticky. 
Urinates normally. 
Still grinding teeth somewhat frequently despite Metacam. 

Any further thoughts/suggestions GREATLY (and humbly) appreciated!!!


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Stop offering anything but milk. She really needs that nutrition. Wrap her in a towel with only her head out so she cannot fight so much. Put her between your legs or under an arm. When you put the nip in her mouth... put it straight in and hold the sides of her mouth. Squeeze and release her mouth like she needs be when sucking. Do not let her slide that nipple to the sides. Is the hole in the nipples big enough? She could be getting frustrated that there is only a tinny amount coming out at a time.

Her temp is too low to be feeding at 100..... she needs be 101.5 at least. And the milk meeds be that warm as well.

Heck at this point.... i might take her to her dam and put her in a milkstand to see if the nugget can latch onto her. You cannot leave her with the dam because she will reject her. But if nugget can latch take her out several times a day and do it. But you will have to do it that way until weaning if you start it now.

The punching.... it is actually not agressive.. that is her trying to bump an udder to get milk to let down. So it is normal. Put a bottle up against your ear since she likes it there and try to feed her that way. The teeth grinding may be from being hungry and her tum hurting from hungries.

I would call the vet tomorrow and ask will they show you how to tube feed her. That will get food into her at least. Maybe she just needs a good full tum a few times to realize it is ok to suck the bottle.

Are there any goat or dairy farms close to you? Stop by one and tell them the situation and ask if they might help you get her to nurse a bottle.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Are you sure the milk is warm enough?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

How incredibly frustrating. I don't get it. You are working hard! Keep your chin up!

Hmmmm poops should still be yellow at this age, although I guess perhaps she isn't consuming enough milk to produce them. 

I agree, drive her back to where you keep the does and tie/halter any lactating doe and see if she will latch there, or latch to bottle standing next to a doe.


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

At this point, I would reccomend tube feeding for a little while just to get some nourishment in her.

But years ago, when I got started in goats, I had the exact same problem you're having. I tried everything, vets, cow's milk, replacer, canned goat milk, Pritchard nipple, baby nipple, lamb nipples, all of it! I almost lost it several times and we fought for weeks, just like you're doing. Finally, one thing worked. Pure, fresh, goat milk! After that it didn't matter how it was fed, that kid couldn't get enough! I could even mix cow's milk in with it after that.
So I would suggest finding a breeder or dairy in your area to get some goat milk from, or if you have a doe in milk, you can milk her straight into a bottle. They do Not like the canned milk, that stuff is fake to them, real, fresh goat milk is what they want. Because she was on her dam for 3 days, that's what she got used to and she has high standards now, lol.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All great advice.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> Are you sure the milk is warm enough?


Yes we are at 100 - 101 when feeding. I frequently reheat the formula since she is so slow to eat and it gets too cold after an oz or two.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Morning Star Farm said:


> At this point, I would reccomend tube feeding for a little while just to get some nourishment in her.
> 
> But years ago, when I got started in goats, I had the exact same problem you're having. I tried everything, vets, cow's milk, replacer, canned goat milk, Pritchard nipple, baby nipple, lamb nipples, all of it! I almost lost it several times and we fought for weeks, just like you're doing. Finally, one thing worked. Pure, fresh, goat milk! After that it didn't matter how it was fed, that kid couldn't get enough! I could even mix cow's milk in with it after that.
> So I would suggest finding a breeder or dairy in your area to get some goat milk from, or if you have a doe in milk, you can milk her straight into a bottle. They do Not like the canned milk, that stuff is fake to them, real, fresh goat milk is what they want. Because she was on her dam for 3 days, that's what she got used to and she has high standards now, lol.


I have store bought goat's milk, she is just not having it. I am trying to find a local farm but no luck so far.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> How incredibly frustrating. I don't get it. You are working hard! Keep your chin up!
> 
> Hmmmm poops should still be yellow at this age, although I guess perhaps she isn't consuming enough milk to produce them.
> 
> I agree, drive her back to where you keep the does and tie/halter any lactating doe and see if she will latch there, or latch to bottle standing next to a doe.


I'm so discouraged. We're going to try taking her back to the dam tomorrow. Problem is we are not there full-time and she can't be left.

We had improved feeding on Weds night, she took almost 4 oz. with minimal fighting. yesterday she ate great in the AM, 4 oz and then almost another 5 oz combined at next two feedings. Temp was 102. Then refused everything overnight. Seems droopy this morning and again refusing her formula, water or electrolytes. Temp 100.8 again.

I thought she might be constipated since we had eaten so much formula and had not had a poo since Tuesday PM. Gave her an enema 5cc's water with some mineral oil about an hour ago and she almost immediately released some greenish-brown clustered poo. Mostly solid, looked a little mucous-y. She is still shy of 2 weeks, I am assuming she would not be showing Coccidia symptoms? She voided a bit of water afterwards but now is just kind of standing around very quietly hunched up with her tail tucked. Have not seen her do this before. *sigh*


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You may need to give more enema to get her all cleaned out. 100.8 is slightly low temp and you need to get her warmed up. A pinch of cayenne pepper in enough water to drench will help perk her up. I would also give a cd antitoxin shot. The hunched appearance can mean her tummy really hurts. Once she is warm enough and its time to eat, try heating the milk a little warmer than usually, test on your wrist like you would for a human baby. You want to feel the warmth without it burning. Put honey on the nipple. Sit baby in your lap, legs tucked. Get her to relax by petting her under her chin, scratch her jaw line etc. once she is settled cup her chin with one hand, tilt her head upward. Slip the nipple in and hold it front and center. Pulse the bottle to get milk flowing, make sure she swallows, pulse again. may take several bottles before she decided to actually suckle, but pulsing slow ( can be a pain) will get the milk in her. IMO, I would not feed formula. Whole cows milk from the grocery is good for her and less chance of her getting sick from it. Formula can cause constipation, scours, and be hard to digest. She doesn't need any of those complications. Be sure to feed her correct amount. Too much milk of any source can also cause illness. I would start with 10% her body weight in oz for now. You can increase if needed once she is sucking it down. 
weigh her and take that weight multiply by 16 to get her weight in oz, then multiply that by 10% to see what she needs per day and divide into 4 bottles. Best wishes


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> You may need to give more enema to get her all cleaned out. 100.8 is slightly low temp and you need to get her warmed up. A pinch of cayenne pepper in enough water to drench will help perk her up. I would also give a cd antitoxin shot.
> 
> weight in oz, then multiply that by 10% to see what she needs per day and divide into 4 bottles. Best wishes


So she was 7.6 lbs at vet, think her cast is accounting for a bit of that though. If I'm correct, guessing approx 6 lb baby = approx 10 oz / 4 bottles = around 2.5 oz per feeding?

As far as the CD anti-toxin is that vet Rx only? Or available at feed store? Thanks for your help.


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Heidi77 said:


> I have store bought goat's milk, she is just not having it. I am trying to find a local farm but no luck so far.


I tried that too. Never could get a kid to accept it. They would take whole cow's milk first, which I highly reccomend over the formula. But there are a lot of goat breeders in your area. Some have just had fall kids so should have some milk to spare. There are a couple dairies there too, so they probably have milk year round.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Heidi77 said:


> So she was 7.6 lbs at vet, think her cast is accounting for a bit of that though. If I'm correct, guessing approx 6 lb baby = approx 10 oz / 4 bottles = around 2.5 oz per feeding?
> 
> As far as the CD anti-toxin is that vet Rx only? Or available at feed store? Thanks for your help.


You can get the CD antitoxin at feed stores but not all carry it. I also recommend whole cows milk warmed to 101* with a pinch of baking soda in the first bottle of the day. I'm sorry you're still having such a rough go with this normally it's really not this hard.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Heidi77 said:


> So she was 7.6 lbs at vet, think her cast is accounting for a bit of that though. If I'm correct, guessing approx 6 lb baby = approx 10 oz / 4 bottles = around 2.5 oz per feeding?
> 
> As far as the CD anti-toxin is that vet Rx only? Or available at feed store? Thanks for your help.


Yes, your math is correct : ) feel her tummy after each bottle. you want a good firm flat tummy, not too poochy and not sunken in. Adjust a little +/- as needed

Your vet may have CD antitoxin..its OTC but feed stores don't often carry it. I order off Jeffers. If you cant get it..you can use Milk of Magnesia at 1/4 cc per pound. This will bind toxins and flush them out. Of course it can cause loose stools. keeping her hydrated when using MOM is important


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

She's a bit young for coccidia but there are other bacterial causes if she continues green mucus poops. 

You can milk dam no problem because she is still nursing other kids right?


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> You can milk dam no problem because she is still nursing other kids right?


She's not producing.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Your vet may have CD antitoxin..its OTC but feed stores don't often carry it. I order off Jeffers. If you cant get it..you can use Milk of Magnesia at 1/4 cc per pound. This will bind toxins and flush them out. Of course it can cause loose stools. keeping her hydrated when using MOM is important


Vet stated that CD antitoxin could not be given because she has been "sick" and would be more likely to develop CD if given?

I don't know squat, but isn't there a difference between and anti-toxin and a vaccine? I suppose she could have thought I was referring to CD/T... ?

I will get her some MOM today and see.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Heidi77 said:


> Vet stated that CD antitoxin could not be given because she has been "sick" and would be more likely to develop CD if given?
> 
> I don't know squat, but isn't there a difference between and anti-toxin and a vaccine? I suppose she could have thought I was referring to CD/T... ?
> 
> I will get her some MOM today and see.


There is a BIG difference. The anti-toxin does not make animals sick, as it isn't the toxoid, it's the ANTI-toxoid.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

So for the last two days she has been eating like a champ, approx 4 oz per feeding 4 x day. I’ve offered more but she gets very adamant that she is done, however still trying to eat my ears off. 

She has stopped fighting the bottle so hard, she will still not voluntarily take it but she lets me put it into her mouth If I hold her head. If she punches my neck or ears I immediately give her the bottle. She seems to be figuring it out. I also started putting small blobs of her Jump Start + on the nipple and she’s mad for it so it helps. 

Temp has been a pretty consistent 102 ish last couple days. No sign of diarrhea or constipation, poos, pees, all good. 

However! I may have celebrated a little too soon. She did not want to leave her crate this AM, normally she is standing up and shouting - ready to come out to potty. 
She wouldn’t eat so I took temp - 98.9 - nearly had a heart attack.... meanwhile she’s trying to eat my ears, etc but wouldn’t have a bottle. Took her to the lav and blow dried her for approx 15 mins. Temp 100.5. She (reluctantly) ate some electrolyte solution (4 oz serving) and devoured the Jump Start + as usual. 

This kid!!! I am going to check her temp again in about 45 min and see if she is holding temp. 

She’s still getting her Metacam 1.5 oz daily, but nothing else. Still grinding. Finished 5 day course of scour meds on Thurs. 
She’s going to the vet on Friday or Saturday for a re-cast and to check her leg.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Baby goats nibble on everything, even sucking on ear lobes, does not always mean hunger. 4 oz 4 times a day may be too much milk for her right now. Low temp and refusing to eat could mean she has a build up of undigested milk. Give a pinch of cayenne pepper to help perk her up. I would stop milk for a few bottles and give quality electrolytes in place of milk. Give MOM at the rate of 1/4 cc per pounds to help rid her body of toxins. Did she poop?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Have you been able to get her weight best you can? maybe hold her cast up a bit? How does her tummy feel after a bottle? How does the leg feel above and below the cast? Hot or cold? any swelling?


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Give a pinch of cayenne pepper to help perk her up. I would stop milk for a few bottles and give quality electrolytes in place of milk. Give MOM at the rate of 1/4 cc per pounds to help rid her body of toxins. Did she poop?


She is fairly perky, she will walk around slowly and is refusing her bottle (replacer) with good energy.

She is pooing, has been mid to dark brown with a tinge of green, still slightly sticky but one fairly solid piece. No defined clumps.

Taking her temp she has loose stool on thermometer, it seems like it's a brownish yellow. Temp is currently holding around 102 again.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Have you been able to get her weight best you can? maybe hold her cast up a bit? How does her tummy feel after a bottle? How does the leg feel above and below the cast? Hot or cold? any swelling?


Weight was 7.6 lbs as of Tuesday, I don't have a scale but she has filled out a bit. She has maybe gained a lb., cast is completely covering her entire leg to hip, but her hip doesn't feel any warmer or cooler than the rest of her as far as I can tell. No swelling to be seen.

The last couple feedings her belly has seemed full, not super firm but pretty flush with ribs. Much better than last week when she was hardly eating a thing. Sides have filled out a bit as well.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

First off, I want to say you are doing a great job with her!! You seem to be on top of every change!! 
At 7.6 pounds she may do better on 3 oz of milk per bottle. We like that firm flat tummy but she may struggle with digesting 4 oz. Yellow in her poop could be milk scours starting..Also I remember we talked about replacer. Some goats struggle no matter how careful we are mixing and warming it. It can take 2 weeks for build up to start causing issue. This is what makes it hard to know what is going on. Owners say "hey been doing good then all of a sudden not"..so milk is not the first thing to come to mind since they been doing fine up until then. My suggestion would be to stop replacer, feed electros in place of the milk for the rest of today..If she feels back to her old self tomorrow, try whole cows milk ( pinch of baking soda in first bottle) I know vets do not agree with cows milk..but I promise, I have raised all our bottle babies on cows milk if goats milk was not available. All did super well. And I never had one get sick from it.
Im glad her leg is doing well..I would discuss with your vet about the pain meds. Im not seeing how she may need it now, this far into the healing. It may contribute to upsetting her tummy too.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Heidi77 said:


> Finished 5 day course of scour meds on Thurs.


what scour meds was she on?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Just ordered CD antitoxin from Jeffers, next day air... can/should I give MOM in the meantime?


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> what scour meds was she on?


It just says calf scour. She got .5 cc 1x day for 5 days.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes you can give MOM 1/4 cc per pound.



Heidi77 said:


> It just says calf scour. She got .5 cc 1x day for 5 days.


Ok. I would add daily probiotics for 3 days to help repopulate flora in her tummy. Goat specific is best, but yogurt or milk keifer can also help.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Baby goats nibble on everything, even sucking on ear lobes, does not always mean hunger. 4 oz 4 times a day may be too much milk for her right now. Low temp and refusing to eat could mean she has a build up of undigested milk.


I'm not sure nibbling is the right word... she nibbles my plants, and clothes, and my dog, and other objects. But she is AGGRESSIVELY punching and biting and positively ATTACKING my earlobes every time I pick her up or bend over her. Hard to believe this is not hunger.

She would eat well one day and then hardly at all for a day or two and so I'd go to electrolytes... the last two days I really thought she had turned a corner but today we are taking two steps back it seems!

I thought since she was eating so well Friday (~6 oz total), Sat (~10 oz total) Sun (~15 oz total) she was making up for such poor/inconsistent eating previously (avg. ~4 oz/day).

I will keep trying the electrolytes for today and see how she does.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Yes you can give MOM 1/4 cc per pound.
> 
> Ok. I would add daily probiotics for 3 days to help repopulate flora in her tummy. Goat specific is best, but yogurt or milk keifer can also help.


She gets Jump Start Plus - 5 g/day and has been on that for about 4 days now.

Is there an additional probiotic she should have?

I will get her some MOM until her CD Anti-tox arrives.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> First off, I want to say you are doing a great job with her!! You seem to be on top of every change!!
> At 7.6 pounds she may do better on 3 oz of milk per bottle. We like that firm flat tummy but she may struggle with digesting 4 oz. Yellow in her poop could be milk scours starting..Also I remember we talked about replacer. Some goats struggle no matter how careful we are mixing and warming it. It can take 2 weeks for build up to start causing issue. This is what makes it hard to know what is going on. Owners say "hey been doing good then all of a sudden not"..so milk is not the first thing to come to mind since they been doing fine up until then. My suggestion would be to stop replacer, feed electros in place of the milk for the rest of today..If she feels back to her old self tomorrow, try whole cows milk ( pinch of baking soda in first bottle) I know vets do not agree with cows milk..but I promise, I have raised all our bottle babies on cows milk if goats milk was not available. All did super well. And I never had one get sick from it.
> Im glad her leg is doing well..I would discuss with your vet about the pain meds. Im not seeing how she may need it now, this far into the healing. It may contribute to upsetting her tummy too.


Thank you for saying that! I feel like I am failing her miserably - I have never had a goat kid before!! 

I have been warned against changing things up on her, and the cow's milk was definitely not to her liking the first 2x I tried it (however, to be fair she wasn't eating hardly anything at the time).

She seems to like the Kid Milk from Manna Pro but of course everyone is recommending cow's milk so now I feel like I've gotten her started on the wrong thing. I was just frantic to get her to eat so was trying everything. 
She had at least 4 days on Mum, and so she hated the Bottle, and now to change her to cow's milk is a bit scary. I'm afraid she will go back to refusing food entirely.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

All my bottle babies loved to suck ear lobes, like a baby with a pacifier, they like to suck and feel secure. Goats hate change. and once on mom, oh its so hard to get them on the bottle. BUT YOU DID IT!! You didn't give up on her. And yes I do understand the frantic feeling to get them to take anything. Replacer is not evil. We just see so many issues with it and never with whole cows milk ( unless over fed of course). Now that she is willing to have a bottle, she maybe happy with cows milk. Make sure its the best you can afford, as cheap milk often has less fat. Babies will guilt you to their death! We just remain strong. I would keep to 10% of her body weight for now until she is doing great, then you can see if more if needed. Do weigh her weekly and adjust according to her new weight. Her gaining a pound is great. So you know she not starving. 
Jump start is great short term, for goats under stress, but probiotics are still needed.
Hang in there you are doing great.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Maybe add just a touch of whole cows milk to her replacer? Then slowly remove some replacer as you go and add the whole cows milk. 
So she keeps taking the bottle, but also getting her to build a taste, to change to the whole cows milk.
Do it gradually until you get her changed over.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

We always want to make changes slowly. By giving her electros today, it will clean out the tummy to prepare for whole cows milk. You can do as Pam suggest and add whole cows milk as part of her replacer bottle, and reduce replacer a bottle at a time, but my concern is if she is not digesting the replacer, this might not be best for her.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Jump start is great short term, for goats under stress, but probiotics are still needed.
> Hang in there you are doing great.


Oh, Lord I thought Jump Start WAS a probiotic... can you recommend one? I have a Tractor Supply nearby, or should I do the yogurt? Assuming plain, Greek..??

I have Organic whole cow's milk from the store.. definitely not the cheap milk, that should be good for her?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

TSC carries Probios brand its blue and white label..give once a day for 3 days. 
Organic Whole milk is fine and yummy. 

Before you start her back on any milk, you want her tummy feeling good. That means temp is stable, poop is berries, she active and alert, playful. Keep to 3 oz 4 times a day to start. Put a pinch of baking soda in first bottle of the day.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> TSC carries Probios brand its blue and white label..give once a day for 3 days.
> Organic Whole milk is fine and yummy.
> 
> Before you start her back on any milk, you want her tummy feeling good. That means temp is stable, poop is berries, she active and alert, playful. Keep to 3 oz 4 times a day to start. Put a pinch of baking soda in first bottle of the day.


They have bolus and gel in tube. Is one better than the other?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Tube is easier to give


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Just went out to get Probios and MOM.

She’s a little perkier than earlier, but still not really herself... temp back down again to 100.6. It was 101.6 earlier this afternoon and 102.5 at the highest today.

Anyone know what can be causing such big temp swings? (She hasn’t been outside for more than an hour at a go since we brought her in from the ranch.)

She’s just refused her electrolytes again.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Her tummy situation can cause temp flux. Give the MOM, 1/4 c per pound. Keep arming her up.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You can offer Pedialyte, gatorade, or make your own recipe with 
A half gallon of hot water
2-6 Tablespoons of Unsulphured Blackstrap Molasses
1-2 Tablespoons of Either Sea Salt, Epsom Salt, Baking Soda or Table Salt.
1 cup of Apple Cider Vinegar


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> You can offer Pedialyte, gatorade, or make your own recipe with
> A half gallon of hot water
> 2-6 Tablespoons of Unsulphured Blackstrap Molasses
> 1-2 Tablespoons of Either Sea Salt, Epsom Salt, Baking Soda or Table Salt.
> 1 cup of Apple Cider Vinegar


Should I warm the Pedialyte or Gatorade?
Thank you, I really so appreciate all the advise!!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes, should be warm like her milk. ; ) and you're very welcome!


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Heidi77 said:


> Just went out to get Probios and MOM.
> 
> She's a little perkier than earlier, but still not really herself... temp back down again to 100.6. It was 101.6 earlier this afternoon and 102.5 at the highest today.
> 
> ...


Have you tried puttin a baby onsie on her to help her hold her heat better? Or an infant sweatshirt. And like happybleats keeps remindin you..... do not overfeed her even when she fusses like a banchee. It is HARD i know but in the long run her tum will love you more for it. When she does gain a bit more weight a d she really. Eeds the more milk increase it slowly. You are doing a GREAT job!


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> Have you tried puttin a baby onsie on her to help her hold her heat better? Or an infant sweatshirt. And like happybleats keeps remindin you..... do not overfeed her even when she fusses like a banchee. It is HARD i know but in the long run her tum will love you more for it. When she does gain a bit more weight a d she really. Eeds the more milk increase it slowly. You are doing a GREAT job!


Thank you - That is a great idea... I will go get her a onesie! I have been trying to keep a blanket on her but I know she needs to move around too.

I do feel bad she had been so stubborn about eating and then I thought she was finally going to eat normally! But I will keep her on the electrolytes (had to give with medicine syringe - she hated the Pedialyte!) tonight and we'll see about some whole cow milk in the AM.

Thank you for your help and kind words - I would be lost without y'all!!


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## Chelsey (Dec 7, 2018)

happybleats said:


> 1-2 Tablespoons of Either Sea Salt, Epsom Salt, Baking Soda or Table Salt.


Why 'or'? Those are three very different things, it would make sense to me if it was 'you can add up to 1 table spoon of each, or leave one out if you don't have it'. I'm just curious, it's probably not important.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Don't forget the pinch of baking soda in the first bottle of the day. It's really important. Youre doing great she's in good hands


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Chelsey said:


> Why 'or'? Those are three very different things, it would make sense to me if it was 'you can add up to 1 table spoon of each, or leave one out if you don't have it'. I'm just curious, it's probably not important.


I read it as, 1-2 tbsp of one of these 4 things.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I use sea salt or pink salt but yes, that's what I read too.


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## Chelsey (Dec 7, 2018)

That’s how I read it too, I’m just wondering why you only need one. There’s two different kinds of sodium and a magnesium. Do they all just do the same basic thing?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Its basically choices of what you have on hand.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Hows baby today?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How are things?


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

:update: Oh, Lord, it’s like I have a completely different goat every day! 

Yesterday and last night was rough, she was crying nonstop and wouldn’t take her electrolytes AT ALL, I had to syringe them into her mouth, she was not happy!! 

Fussed all evening and half the night. I know her tum was hurting her and she had been pretty lethargic since her replacer binge over the weekend. 

This morning she was kind of sluggish, gave her the probios and she perked up a little. Warmed up 3 oz of cow’s milk (with a pinch of baking soda!  ) and she starts screaming bloody murder. It took some doing but got her to finally swallow some and after a little bit, she actually started eating it somewhat voluntarily!! 

She’s opening her mouth a bit for the nip now and she has NEVER done that, always been a fight to get it into her mouth. I’m so happy!! 

Second feeding just completed and she practically inhaled her 3 oz - is currently fussing for more, but I’m going to make her wait properly 6 hours until next meal. 

She seems to like the cow’s milk and I’m beyond relieved!

I’m going to give her her second dose of MOM in a bit and then hopefully her CD Anti-toxin will arrive later this PM. 

Only downside is she hasn’t had a poo since yesterday early AM, although her belly is quite full she doesn’t seem uncomfortable. Enema? And should I give her the CD today or wait until tomorrow since she’ll be getting the MOM? 

:ty:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes enema.

Good work so far.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> Yes enema.
> 
> Good work so far.


Thanks! I just took temp and 102.3... still lots of brownish-yellow poo on thermometer.

She's peeing frequently but no poo. I'll do an enema now, thank you!!!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Great job! Now, don't change her milk at all whole cow's milk only and she should be in great shape. Yay!!!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:goodjobthumbup)

Yes an enema, warm water and a drop of gentle soap, not too hot. 

Get a small syringe(no needle). 
Suck up 3 cc's into the syringe, then put the tip up to the rectum, you do not need to insert it, just right up to the opening. Plunge it up there slowly. Put in 2 to 3 -3 cc's, massage the belly/flank area, really massage, be gentle but push upward on the tummy there. 

When you put in enough water, you will see water and hopefully poo come out, when doing this procedure. If you don't, add more until you do, Sometimes it takes quite a bit to get them to go. 
You should see a lot of poo coming out when you massage and push up on the tummy/flank area. It will squirt out in a stream, so don't get your face in the way, LOL.
When you get no more water coming out.
Do it again, until you are not getting anymore poo coming out of there.

If the kid hasn't went in a very long time you should see a lot coming out for a baby. If the kid can't poo, it will die. 

Let us know.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> :goodjobthumbup)
> 
> Yes an enema, warm water and a drop of gentle soap.
> 
> ...


Oh what fun!!

I had Mineral Oil on hand so I used that instead of soap, hopefully ok?

3 cc's didn't produce anything, I massaged, nothing, got her up to walk around, still nothing until I picked her up to put her in the grass, and then she pooed like crazy. Not sure why she wasn't able to get it all out, it's a sticky pudding consistency with no berries or defined clumps. Not hard or dried.
I thought she would be past that stage as I think I read somewhere that at two weeks she should be pooing berry clusters. She's almost 3 weeks old.

Anyway I repeated twice and she just expelled the water so assuming she is good for now!

She's currently looking at me like she might resort to violence if I don't feed her soon.  1.5 hours til dinner!

We have had our MOM, should I give her CD Anti-tox tonight?

I tried calling the vet to see if the pain meds can be scaled back a bit, but no call back as of yet. She's close to 2 weeks in the cast (5th) but she still somewhat frequently grinds her teeth. She'll also occasionally open her mouth like she's yawning but it looks like she does it immediately after grinding, or when she seems uncomfortable. Is this goat-speak for something? :shrug::shrug::shrug:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yahooo Great news indeed!! Yes a warm enema is needed..keep up until she poops really good..she will feel so so much better after ward..GOOD JOB!!

EDIT..Oops I see she had success in the poop department..GOOD JOB. Personally I would stop the pain meds..the grinding of teeth is more likely her tummy but also sometimes its just them playing with their teeth. My two nigies who were raised in the house for 6 months did that all the time. Really bad grinding lol but they were fine. And yes, you can give a shot of cd antitoxin. Once she poops on her own, and acts well you can stop the MOM and a single shot of CD Antitoxin should be enough.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Yahooo Great news indeed!!
> 
> Personally I would stop the pain meds..the grinding of teeth is more likely her tummy but also sometimes its just them playing with their teeth. My two nigies who were raised in the house for 6 months did that all the time. Really bad grinding lol but they were fine. And yes, you can give a shot of cd antitoxin. Once she poops on her own, and acts well you can stop the MOM and a single shot of CD Antitoxin should be enough.


Great, thanks!! I am inclined to agree on the pain meds - she still grinds even when on it, but it stays about the same when it should be wearing off... doesn't seem to fluctuate as if it was "real" pain, if you get my meaning. 
She will be at the vet for her Coccidia vax and recast on Friday. I am going to ask for a lighter or smaller cast. She doesn't run or play at all, hoping to see her happy and bouncy soon.

I don't know if you can see in the pic but she was born away from the shelter and the birds took off one of her ears. Is there anything that should be done about it? It's healed well and doesn't seem to bother her. Vet had nothing to say about it. Do I need to clean it inside? For dirt and things? Can goats get fungal or other types of ear infections like dogs do? I have been so worried about everything else up until now this seemed so minor but thought I'd ask.

Thanks again!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Heidi77 said:


> She will be at the vet for her Coccidia vax


There are no vaccines for coccidia for goats. We can use injectable DiMethox or Sulfa Meds orally, but wont work for goats injected.

Where is the picture?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

happybleats said:


> There are no vaccines for coccidia for goats. We can use injectable DiMethox or Sulfa Meds orally, but wont work for goats injected.
> 
> Where is the picture?


The picture is her avitar. She's a cutie


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

OH MY, Yes she is cute. As long as its healing well, i would just keep an eye on things..


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> There are no vaccines for coccidia for goats. We can use injectable DiMethox or Sulfa Meds orally, but wont work for goats injected.
> 
> Where is the picture?


So, I just wait to see if she gets sick? I have read about Coccidia treatment at exactly 21 days, thought there was a vaccine or something. I guess just a preventative antibiotic then?

Seems like she's had a ton of antibiotics in her short life this far... Poor thing!


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

:inlove::update:

Well, dinner was there and gone! She ate it up! She loves the Cow’s milk! Thanks for the encouragement to switch, I don’t think the replacer was a good thing for her tum.

She has had a full 9 oz so far today (next feeding at 1 AM) and she is consistently taking the bottle with very little struggle. :clapping:

Temp 102.3
Weight 8 lbs 1 oz (up from 7.6 Tues)

I’m excited, I think she is going to be just fine. I am quite smitten with her, I can’t wait to see what we can do with the rest of the tribe... Poor things are woefully under cared for, we had no idea... (embarrassed) I am looking forward to learning as much as I can to get them all on track. 

Just want to thank everyone again for helping me out and generously offering so much great advise, y’all have truly saved her!!! :inlove::ty::squish:

Cross fingers for a good vet visit and good healing progress!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Heidi77 said:


> So, I just wait to see if she gets sick? I have read about Coccidia treatment at exactly 21 days, thought there was a vaccine or something. I guess just a preventative antibiotic then?


No, she needs coccidia prevention starting at 10 days to 3 weeks old. I choose Toltrazuril which needs to be ordered. DiMethox injectable given orally is another choice, again ordered, Albon is something the vet may have on hand which is a brand name of DiMethox. Some vet prefer Corid, I really don't care for it but some members here use it with success. Let us know what the vet gives you for her and we will check dosage for her. Most need to be given once a day for five days, repeated every 21 days until weened. Toltrazuril is different and given once, boostered in 10 days if needed. I know..lots to consider and learn. You will get lots of support here. 
Im so happy to hear she is doing so well. AT two weeks old I feed mine their bottles between me getting up and going to bed. She should be able to sleep through the night. For ex: I may feed at 8 am, 12 pm 4 pm and last bottle at 8 pm. Keep hay in her pen to nibble on. she wont eat much but it helps keep them busy and helps in building their rumen.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Heidi77 said:


> So, I just wait to see if she gets sick? I have read about Coccidia treatment at exactly 21 days, thought there was a vaccine or something. I guess just a preventative antibiotic then?
> 
> Seems like she's had a ton of antibiotics in her short life this far... Poor thing!


Anything given for coccidia is not an antibiotic. It is a coccidistat. Cocci is a protozoa that makes cells called oocysts not bacterial or viral. . Think of them similar to regular goat worms but not really.... clear as mud? Lol.

All goats will have a few oocysts and that is ok. But when they have a "bloom" of it during wet wet times on the farm or when they are young and their lil bodies do not know how to deal with them is when there is danger. The oocysts multiply to a high level and you see runny poops and lethargic kids. If left untreated it can cause the lining to their stomachs become bad.... when this happens they are not able to properly absorb in the nutrients from their food intake. So they tend to be sickly and you will hear the term "failure to thrive" a lot of times... they just do not grow so well and are usually much smaller always from other animals of the same age.

So when they are young by giving the "prevention" doses at age intervals vs waiting for a problem load to grow and harm them... what you are doing is giving their lil bodies time to learn how to deal with the cocci so it does not get to a danger level. Almost like makin antibodies but not quite. It is the easiest way i can think to describe it for you though. 

Yay she is voluntarily eatin!


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> Think of them similar to regular goat worms but not really.... clear as mud? Lol.
> 
> All goats will have a few oocysts and that is ok. But when they have a "bloom" of it during wet wet times on the farm or when they are young and their lil bodies do not know how to deal with them is when there is danger. The oocysts multiply to a high level and you see runny poops and lethargic kids. If left untreated it can cause the lining to their stomachs become bad.... when this happens they are not able to properly absorb in the nutrients from their food intake. So they tend to be sickly and you will hear the term "failure to thrive"


 So, not a viral or bacterial infection and not worms either, though?

What do you mean by "wet wet times"? As in rainy weather? She will be warm and dry until weaning, do I still need to be worried about this?
What about her brother who is still at the ranch with Mum? She is not producing but he is nursing off another dam that had a stillborn. Does this make it more likely he will need treatment? 
So many questions!! I am just clueless!! :shrug:


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Im so happy to hear she is doing so well. AT two weeks old I feed mine their bottles between me getting up and going to bed. She should be able to sleep through the night. For ex: I may feed at 8 am, 12 pm 4 pm and last bottle at 8 pm. Keep hay in her pen to nibble on. she wont eat much but it helps keep them busy and helps in building their rumen.


I have Timothy Hay for Small Rodents. Is this acceptable? Someone at the feed store told me that the small rodent hay sometimes has things that are poisonous to goats. He mentioned rhododendrons I think. Would it be safe to still give her a bit of the Timothy Hay? I can get any hay, as long as I don't have to buy a 100 lb bale! (Although, really, if I have to I will. )

****General Disclaimer, if my darling fiancé ever finds this thread I SWEAR I have not spent more than $37.86 keeping this goat alive!!**** (console)

I am trying to work her around to sleeping through, she never accepts her 1 - 3 AM feeding anyway, however I think she will now as she likes her cow's milk so much.

I'll probably start feeding at 11 PM and then at 6 AM provided she doesn't cry all night. (pray)


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Heidi77 said:


> So, not a viral or bacterial infection and not worms either, though?
> 
> What do you mean by "wet wet times"? As in rainy weather? She will be warm and dry until weaning, do I still need to be worried about this?
> What about her brother who is still at the ranch with Mum? She is not producing but he is nursing off another dam that had a stillborn. Does this make it more likely he will need treatment?
> So many questions!! I am just clueless!! :shrug:


Yes wet rainy conditions for more than just a few days. I would def treat brother since he is on the ground all the time. Her.... eh i dunno. Sorry! Even if she is being kept inside but goes outside and it has been wet i probably would go on and treat her...(the cocci is in the ground and she can pick it up) or ask the vet to do a fecal when you go this week and ask specifically for them to look for cocci. . That will def tell you if she needs it done right now. .

I guess i am eh on her right now simply because she has had so much thrown at her to get her goin good for you and this is just one more thing. But others may have a better answer for you on this aspect.

You may be clueless... but you ARE doing great and learning and asking questions. That is wonderful! So keep on askin the questions.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

In the rabbit section of the farm supply store they usually have a hay blend in small bags. I have seen timothy/alfalfa blend a d just timothy.... both are fine. bring her some of the other goats hay over for her. .


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yes make sure the hay is free of anything but grass hay..


Heidi77 said:


> rhododendrons


 are very toxic.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Yay! Yipeeeee!
Sounds like you've got it now! 
I'd just get plain old alfalfa or Timothy hay not rabbit or rodent just plain hay and give it to her. Yes, her brother needs to be treated for coccidia too.
You're doing great. Soon your little lady will be bouncing around and you'll never know she had such a rough start


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

The enema must of made her feel better. Along with whole cows milk.

I agree, stop the pain meds,

I start my kids on cocci prevention around 1 month old. That is when they are most susceptible.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Oh boy... anyone know what to do for brown lice? She is suddenly crawling with them... and so am I  Ugh!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Use this, you put it on like Advantage for dogs...down the top line from base of neck to tail. For your little one I'd use 0.5ccs. Make sure you replace ALL her bedding too to kill eggs and stragglers. Oops...forgot to say you can get it at Tractor supply.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Ultra boss, down the top line.


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

You've done a great job!! 

I agree with stopping the pain meds, they may have been making her feel worse, they can be hard on the system.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

I was so hoping for a better outcome today!! Baby girl went for a recast and it appears that her leg was set incorrectly at the first vet. They confirmed that no Xrays were taken before or after her cast was applied. I didn’t think to ask as I would have thought that was SOP? Am I way off base here or what???

I am heartbroken as they would not recast or splint and just said it would require surgery and pins to fix. Meantime she is a 3-legged kid. 

I am planning to look for a second opinion tomorrow but... poor thing!!! Any thoughts or guidance appreciated. 

The only upside to this right now is that her cast is off and she has stopped grinding her teeth... :upset: although I’m just gutted it never occurred to me to ask for an X-ray on her leg. 

Again thanks for any and all feedback!!


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Heidi77 said:


> I was so hoping for a better outcome today!! Baby girl went for a recast and it appears that her leg was set incorrectly at the first vet. They confirmed that no Xrays were taken before or after her cast was applied. I didn't think to ask as I would have thought that was SOP? Am I way off base here or what???
> 
> I am heartbroken as they would not recast or splint and just said it would require surgery and pins to fix. Meantime she is a 3-legged kid.
> 
> ...


Do you have Texas A&M near you? They have a great vet program you can get a hold of them and they're not as expensive as traditional vets


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Heidi77 said:


> I was so hoping for a better outcome today!! Baby girl went for a recast and it appears that her leg was set incorrectly at the first vet. They confirmed that no Xrays were taken before or after her cast was applied. I didn't think to ask as I would have thought that was SOP? Am I way off base here or what???
> 
> I am heartbroken as they would not recast or splint and just said it would require surgery and pins to fix. Meantime she is a 3-legged kid.
> 
> ...


Heartbroken for you! But omg MAD MAD MAD for you too! What kind of doctor human or animal does not do an xray for an obvious break?!?!?! Before AND after it is set. Is there another vet in the office for you to fuss at over this? And i might would demand the surgery for free..... if i trusted the other vet. Or demand they pay the vet bill for it to be fixed by another vet. Why can they not sedate her, rebreak it and set it instead of surgery surgery? Because this is just bs! That was very negligent and they would so hear me roar. If there is not another vet in the office you trust.... every social media, bbb, local news would most likely know about this. People should not be takin their babies of any breed or form to him. To me that is more than an oversight.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No x-ray? I would think that would be automatic. I'm so sorry.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How awful. 

Good suggestions and I am so sorry.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> Use this, you put it on like Advantage for dogs...down the top line from base of neck to tail. For your little one I'd use 0.5ccs. Make sure you replace ALL her bedding too to kill eggs and stragglers. Oops...forgot to say you can get it at Tractor supply.


Apologies if I double posted....

I seemed to have edited out my entire comment.

Cliff notes: Can Ivermax cause die-off symptoms? Lethargy, weakness? Baby girl has been giving me heart palpitations since early this evening she just started seeming not herself and practically falling asleep standing up. Falling down when walking, sluggish. 
Still trying to eat, although ate a bit less for dinner tonight.

She's had .5 cc Vit B Complex Oral and .5 cc Ivermax yesterday at approx 3 PM. Wondering if this is a normal reaction to parasite die-off or something else? Have a call in to vet again.

Temp 102.3. She alternates between awake and somewhat alert to completely sound asleep. Normal potty's. Only other thing I have noticed is that she seems to be yawning a lot and sneezing a little bit. I'm going to try to get her to take some Pedialyte.

Hope everyone had a happy Christmas.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Forgot to add that she had her leg RE-set and splinted Thursday. Seemed like she was going great then, moving and trying to get around. She’s been asleep for most of the day today since noon or so. 

Thoughts or suggestions? Thanks everyone.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Stress can do a number on goats, especially kids. Im so sorry she has gone through this and you. How much does she weigh? Is she peeing good. Hows her appetite? Yawning is a sign of pain as well. Did the vets give anything for pain?

Yes if she was heavy loaded with worms, and if it was injectable or pour on ivomec given orally, it can cause die off toxicity. CD antitoxin or Milk of magnesia can help. Why was she wormed? did fecal show worm burden? She's what? about 2 weeks old now?


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Stress can do a number on goats, especially kids. Im so sorry she has gone through this and you. How much does she weigh? Is she peeing good. Hows her appetite? Yawning is a sign of pain as well. Did the vets give anything for pain?
> 
> Yes if she was heavy loaded with worms, and if it was injectable or pour on ivomec given orally, it can cause die off toxicity. CD antitoxin or Milk of magnesia can help. Why was she wormed? did fecal show worm burden? She's what? about 2 weeks old now?


She is approx. 8.5 lbs. Urinating fairly frequently, does not seem to be in any pain when peeing other than having to squat with her bad leg. She has been eating like a champ (5 - 6 oz on average per feeding). My fiancée spoke with the vet regarding her most recent treatment and he is out at the ranch now so I can't reach him. She was sedated and I would imagine given Banamine since they gave that the first time she was casted. I'll have to call in the AM and ask.

She's almost a month old now. She was born on the 30th. The Ivermax was scripted for the Lice/mites she has; she was crawling with them.  Applied .5 cc down her topline. She was given her CD anti-toxin on Monday last.

She just went flat on me today, she's been quiet and sleeping a lot.. I was starting to be hopeful again since she was doing so great. I'm just gutted over her. She had some Jump Start Plus earlier today as well. She just drank perhaps 1 oz of electrolytes and went back to sleep.

I wish I knew what I am doing wrong! Such a sorry mess we are. (embarrassed)


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You are not doing anything wrong. Goats can be so simple and so complicated at the same time. The lice treatment wont give dead worm toxicity as it will not kill internal parasites. Is she on coccidia prevention? I would try a little probiotics and more b complex, injectable Sub Q. 1/2 cc. Keep tabs on her temperature. A pinch of cayenne pepper in honey swiped in her mouth can offer her some perk and energy.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

happybleats said:


> You are not doing anything wrong. Goats can be so simple and so complicated at the same time. The lice treatment wont give dead worm toxicity as it will not kill internal parasites. Is she on coccidia prevention? I would try a little probiotics and more b complex, injectable Sub Q. 1/2 cc. Keep tabs on her temperature. A pinch of cayenne pepper in honey swiped in her mouth can offer her some perk and energy.


No coccidia prevention at this time, everyone she has seen seems to feel like she is overloaded as it is, and her poo has been very normal/regular the last week or week and a half. I don't have any injectable B Comp, only the oral.

She was so sound asleep she didn't even move when I shifted her position but then she woke up all of a sudden and was super perky for about 20 mins. Drank some pedialyte. About an oz. Seems like she is wanting/needing something but hell if I know what it is. She loves her probios so maybe that.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Seems like she just has no ability to stand up whatsoever. Her little legs are just going everywhere, almost like she has no control over them. I don’t think she can stand up on her own. I am not sure what’s going on. Temp still 102.6. 

She can’t seem to get (or keep) her legs under her. She’s bobbing her head around and seems to be mostly alert but obviously something is wrong. I’m taking her to the vet when they open.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Sounds like she hasn't fully come out of the anesthesia yet.
when she's sleeping don't let her lay flat keep her propped up on her brisketwith rolled towels or something. When she's up on her feet, hold her up in a towel sling and get her moving to get her circulation going. I second vitamin b complex though I'd give 1cc then go down to 0.5cc there after. It won't hurt them and she'll pass what her body doesn't need. She needs to work the sedation out of her system.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

GoofyGoat said:


> Sounds like she hasn't fully come out of the anesthesia yet.


This could very well be her sleepy problem. Vit C is wonderful for detox, and wont hurt to give her



Heidi77 said:


> No coccidia prevention at this time, everyone she has seen seems to feel like she is overloaded as it is, and her poo has been very normal/regular the last week or week and a half.


Coccidia is nothing to mess with. It does a lot of damage in a short time. I would def. do prevention. you can ask your vet for Marquis. It's for dogs but works well on goats. Its same family as Toltrazuril. That way shes not getting 5 days of meds every 21 days


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh my gosh I'm so sorry. You are fighting so hard for her. I would call the Veterinarian and also give her an injection of Fortified B-Complex. Do her eyes appear jittery and dialated? I'm concerned about stress induced polio. 

As for the improper previous setting. I definitely would bring the x-ray and documentation to the old vet's office and ask to speak with them. I would go in fighting mad but I would explain concisely and clearly what happened and ask of they would refund a portion of your bill. It's unfair the doeling had to suffer so at their hands. The vet was probably trying to do a good thing by saving you money but they deserve to know how it turned out for learning and future practice.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:

Prayers sent.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

How's she doing this afternoon?


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Oh my gosh I'm so sorry. You are fighting so hard for her. I would call the Veterinarian and also give her an injection of Fortified B-Complex. Do her eyes appear jittery and dialated? I'm concerned about stress induced polio.
> 
> As for the improper previous setting. I definitely would bring the x-ray and documentation to the old vet's office and ask to speak with them. I would go in fighting mad but I would explain concisely and clearly what happened and ask of they would refund a portion of your bill. It's unfair the doeling had to suffer so at their hands. The vet was probably trying to do a good thing by saving you money but they deserve to know how it turned out for learning and future practice.


Went back to the original vet Thurs. He did not charge to splint or anesthetize her the second time. He was humble and said it could have been set incorrectly but also that her swelling could have prevented the cast from being as restrictive as needed to keep the bone in place. The vet that removed the cast seconded that when I called afterwards.

At this point the bone is the least of her worries. I was worried about polio too from what I head read online. Drove 79 miles at 6 AM to get her checked out, informal diagnosis is pneumonia but I'm angry because the vet (not the one who casted/splinted her leg... he's on vacay) was highly critical of the cow's milk (store bought, even) and stated she MUST be on the Multi-species replacer (LO'L) which she adamantly refused to eat and then when she finally did she was blocked for 2 days and it took two enemas and 24 hours of electrolytes to clear her out.... but apparently her pneumonia is being caused in part by lack of nutrients etc. SO he really pushed me to get her back on the replacer. I'm frustrated because he tubed her and gave her 8 - 10 oz of it and said I need to force feed her if necessary since her blood sugar was super low and she needs additional fats, etc. if she's going to thrive.

I have never been so frustrated in my life!! He gave her a boatload of Thiamine and Baytril (I'm supposed to give her an additional Baytril SQ in the AM) and then the tube feed, which swelled her up to epic proportions... her belly is huge and I'm freaking out because she hasn't had a poo since yesterday and now with the pneumonia she's not walking much and then the formula which blocked her up in the first place... (embarrassed)(doh)

Super frustrated. He said her blood sugar was super low and she needed to be tube fed. She did perk up and is looking a mite better but she's still unsteady on her feet and falls every time she tries to get up.

2 enemas and no poo, probably due to not being able to move much...

Sorry this was supposed to be a reply and has turned into an update....

I gave her 2 cc's MOM (she was 8.6 lbs today pre-tube feeding) and I am planning to give her 5 g of probios to help her belly.

I can't get her to poo. Vet seemed to think that everything else was more pressing.

Downside is she is completely off her food and I can't get her to take anything other than Jump Start + or Probios.

I have a fortified B12 Oral Gel but she has had a bit of it today and is only supposed to be getting .5 cc.

Just so tired. She is resting and seems a bit better as I said but she's still flat and weak, coupled with now not eating at all... formula or cow's milk. 

Enemas unproductive.
2 cc's MOM this PM. 
CD Anti-tox given Monday last. 
Ivermax .5 cc down topline Thurs. 
Temp back down to 101.9 (was 103.7 at vet this AM) 
Not accepting bottle (at all, milk or replacer). I am reluctant to stress her out by forcing her and I am also reluctant to feed her more when her belly feels like it will rupture and she hasn't had a poo.

She is sleeping on my lap and she didn't even flinch when the dogs went off over the fireworks our neighbors are shooting off....  I am afraid I am going to lose her after all this. She has been such a trooper.  Sorry for the mini-novels but I am just so frustrated.(pray):imok:


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> :nod::up:
> 
> Prayers sent.


Really, thank you loads... (pray) She needs them all. I am frightened for her. She got stuck with just me and could have done so much better with someone who actually has done this before! Poor baby!!


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> Sounds like she hasn't fully come out of the anesthesia yet.
> when she's sleeping don't let her lay flat keep her propped up on her brisketwith rolled towels or something. When she's up on her feet, hold her up in a towel sling and get her moving to get her circulation going. I second vitamin b complex though I'd give 1cc then go down to 0.5cc there after. It won't hurt them and she'll pass what her body doesn't need. She needs to work the sedation out of her system.


She had the anesthesia on Thurs AM, could it still be lingering?

I have tried walking her around with a sling. She's like a crumbly cookie... I know she needs to walk but she goes ass over teakettle every third step.  I have her propped up in her pen (in my living room) with towels but when she tries to move and she goes over like a drunk frat girl in 5" heels.

1 cc of B Comp and then .5 cc per day?
Appreciate you. :ty:


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

Coccidia is nothing to mess with. It does a lot of damage in a short time. I would def. do prevention. you can ask your vet for Marquis. It's for dogs but works well on goats. Its same family as Toltrazuril. That way shes not getting 5 days of meds every 21 days[/QUOTE]

She is scheduled to start the Coccidia preventative on Friday at her leg checkup. Hopefully she will be past the pneumonia at that point. She can't even poo so could diarrhea be an issue? Thought that was the main symptom. Please let me know if I am wrong. Thanks for all your help. :ty:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm disappointed with that vet insisting on milk replacer. Especially the one he wants you to use. Make sure her temp is over 101 before feeding. It is your call but I personally wouldn't use the milk replacer. She does need to poop and probably should get electrolytes to clear out her poor belly.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Apply warm compresses (or towels warmed in dryer) to her belly and massage firmly then "bicycle" her back legs to get the gut moving since she can't seem to walk right now.

Did the Veterinarian feel that the stumbling was due to low blood sugar?

Can you get Land o Lakes DOES MATCH replacer? Its a really good one. (https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/land-olakes-does-match-kid-milk-replacer-8-lb-pouch)

Give the B-Complex injections every 4-6 hours just in case this is Polio related. (she should have jittery eyes, blindness, or dialated pupils in addition to the drunk walking if this is Polio)


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Oh geez that vet....ugh! I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. Just remember you have the right and responsiblity to say NO to a treatment or anything he suggests if you think he's wrong or you don't feel he's doing the right thing. Sometimes you have to take a stand to do what's right for your furry baby! 

Ok, ignore the vet on the replacer! He's obviously stuck in his little textbook world and is too stubborn to accept sometimes he's wrong. Many of us here with (a lot more than me) years of experience have successfully raised babies on whole cow milk with a pinch of baking soda. 
She wants the jumpstart and probios because her tummy hurts. If you really think you need to add additional calories add some calf manna to her diet or a squirt of dyne. Give her tummy a break and then do what works.(milk)
Go to tractor supply and get the vitamin b complex injectable and give her that every 6 hours sub q.for a day or two or until she's back to her normal spunky self.
Hang in there! Again I'm so sorry you're dealing with a vet like that, not all of them are jerks and a lot are willing to work with a client instead of against them. Personally I'd never go back but that's my stubbornness showing.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Did the Veterinarian feel that the stumbling was due to low blood sugar?
> 
> Can you get Land o Lakes DOES MATCH replacer? Its a really good one. (https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/land-olakes-does-match-kid-milk-replacer-8-lb-pouch)
> 
> Give the B-Complex injections every 4-6 hours just in case this is Polio related. (she should have jittery eyes, blindness, or dialated pupils in addition to the drunk walking if this is Polio)


He said she was overall very weak (not enough nutrients in cow's milk) and her blood sugar was 64... I think he said it should be around 100. He listened to her lungs and said it didn't appear that she had polio and wasn't old enough to have Listeriosis.

She had been sneezing a bit and I feel bad now for not noticing it more, but she was hungry and otherwise alert so I had just figured she might have a little cold.

The Doe's Match is not sold in my area, but I can order it in. I am tempted at this point to just go back to cow's milk since at least she WAS eating it up until yesterday.

As for other symptoms her gaze is steady, pupils are responsive and she can identify her Probios tube from across the room if I take it out of my bag... I think she's just really sick. I will get some injectable B12 Comp today, though just to be safe.


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> If you really think you need to add additional calories add some calf manna to her diet or a squirt of dyne. Give her tummy a break and then do what works.(milk)
> Go to tractor supply and get the vitamin b complex injectable and give her that every 6 hours sub q.for a day or two or until she's back to her normal spunky self.
> Hang in there! Again I'm so sorry you're dealing with a vet like that, not all of them are jerks and a lot are willing to work with a client instead of against them. Personally I'd never go back but that's my stubbornness showing.


I don't think we'll go back. I am reaching out today to a local farm to see if they can recommend a new vet.

I have put too much effort into getting her to finally eat, and I have been told by so many people that there are issues with replacer. She gained at least a pound this last week (not sure what her weight was post cast removal but she was at 7.6 with the cast) and is up to 8.7 lbs as of yesterday. So she is gaining some weight.

I will look up dyne and calf manna and see what that is. Anything that will help. How much B Comp should I give her per day?


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## Heidi77 (Dec 7, 2019)

I forgot to mention that she finally pooped a bit last night. Not a huge amount but a clump.

She had been pooping round/oblong berries before but last night it looked like a clump of really elongated bits. Almost like a skein of yarn. Was a little weird. Greenish tinge, but she’s had a bit of clover and some hay lately. Nothing soft or foul-smelling, though.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Hang in there! Dyne is a high caloric supplement liquid. Most pet stores or feed stores have it ( if you can't find it in livestock look in dog section) calf manna is a feed like grain it's in livestock for cows and it's what I've always used to boost up feed. Only offer her a little at a time and build up.
For the vitamin b complex 0.5cc every 6 hours sub q for the stress and off behavior it'll also stimulate her to eat. Keep up the probios too for now.
Pooping is good, once she's eating again she'll poop and it will be back to normal again. You can get some vet RX for her cold and sneezes a drop or two in each nostril according to directions. They have different vet RX packages in different areas of the store with different price points but they are all the same so don't get fooled by it. It's all about the $ ....
Keep checking her temp keep her warm and hang in there you're doing great!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

WOW...That crazy vet. I had an on line argument with a vet a few times about how we are doing it wrong and killing baby goats feeding cows milk. But not one intelligent reason why. We find so many thrive on whole cows milk and many get sick on replacer. GoofyGoat gave excellent advice here , I have nothing to add but to say we are here for you and you are doing great. Go slow when introducing new foods. Stick to your guns.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

@happybleats (blushing) gee thanks


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

From Jessica84 recipe:
1- four parts milk to one part half and half
2-one gallon milk mixed with one 12oz can of evaporated milk (not condensed milk) and one cup buttermilk. Remove enough milk from the gallon of whole milk to add the evaporated milk and buttermilk. Mix well, then add back as much of the remaining whole milk as you can to make a full gallon.



This will give the goat a more healthy diet.


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