# Tiny little Nigerian Dwarf Doe?



## dlarue (Oct 10, 2011)

Hello, I am new to the forums, but have been "lurking" for quite some time just reading. This forum has been a treasure trove of information in our new goat venture and we appreciate everyone here!

With that being said, I'm hoping to get some advice. We have an 11 month old doe that is very small. We've had her for a while now, and I can't tell that she is getting any bigger. A couple months after we got her, we purchased a 3 month old. I can tell that the younger doe has grown by leaps and bounds... She is really coming into herself now. My confusion comes from the fact that our now 4 month old is bigger than the 11 month old. She is about an inch taller, and weighs roughly the same amount, give or take a pound or two. Is this something that we should be concerned about? Or do some lines just take a while to mature?

We purchased her hoping to breed her this spring and have fall kids. But it doesn't look like that will happen as she's still far too small to breed. We weighed her and she's sitting at around 23-24 pounds. She looks totally normal, and we haven't noticed anything odd in her behavior. I've read various sources that say a good breeding weight is about 40 pounds. Is this about right? 

Thanks in advance for anyone with any insight!


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

:welcome: Welcome to the forum!

What has the does cocci and deworming schedule been like? She could just be from slow growing lines or she may have picked up cocci or have a worm issue which has slowed her growth and can ultimately stunt her if not taken care of.


----------



## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

She also may be just a smaller girl... I've seen ND's range from very small up to - and beyond- the "limit" . I've noticed that mine are very slow to grow... they really dont reach their mature weight till over a year .. and continue to bulk up till they are around 2.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Welcome...glad to have you here... :wave: 


I would get a fecal on her ...for worms and cocci....both can stunt growth... :hug:


----------



## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Welcome from NJ :wave: 
as others have said it could be her lines or it could be parasites. Best idea is to have a fecal test run to check for worms and cocci.


----------



## dlarue (Oct 10, 2011)

Hello, 

Thanks for the quick responses!

She has been wormed regularly, gets a small amount of grain every day, free choice hay, loose minerals, salt block, and however much water she can drink. She has absolutely no symptoms of being sick at all, and is in fact the opposite. She has the biggest personality of any of our goats... We actually named her "StickoDynamite" (Dyna) cause she's... well, a stick of dynamite prone to explode any second! She runs and jumps and plays like crazy. Looks and acts like she feels great.

I cannot say if she has been screened or treated for Cocci. We have not done so, but we are taking them all in to be tested for CAE/CL (before we go pick up our new babies this spring) so I'll go ahead and have them do a fecal while they are at it. 

If she is just a slow developer, how would you gauge when to breed her? Like I said, she turned 11 months yesterday and weighs 23-24 pounds. I guess I should email the breeder and ask about her Dam. I met her when we picked up Dyna, and she was what I would consider a "normal" sized Nigerian.


----------



## naturalgoats (Jan 3, 2011)

Welcome!
ditto above on the fecal..
M.


----------



## dlarue (Oct 10, 2011)

Hello All, thank you for the responses!

She has been wormed regularly. I cannot say if she has been screened or treated for Cocci, as we have not done so and that wasn't anything the breeder mentioned when we purchased her. We are still pretty "new" to goats, as we've only had them for a few months. 

We are taking them to have blood drawn sometime soon, I'll have them do a fecal while they are at it. We are getting a couple more kids this spring so we want to have them tested for CAE/CL before bringing the new ones in. 

If she is in fact just a smaller goat, what guidelines would you use to determine when she should be bred? I'd rather wait than breed her before she's ready, but I'm anxious for some babies to spoil!  As mentioned before, she turned 11 months old yesterday and weighs 23-24 pounds.


----------



## dlarue (Oct 10, 2011)

Bleh, looks like I accidentally posted twice. My bad! LOL

How long do I have to wait til my posts can be posted without being approved by an admin?


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sounds like a good plan.... :thumb: 


You have to chat 25 posts ...to get full access without approval..... :thumb:


----------



## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

23-24 pounds sounds too small to breed. At 11 months that does sound pretty small. I have some faster and some slower growing lines and most are well over 30 by 11 months.


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree the all the others :thumb: Welcome from Colorado :wave: :stars:


----------



## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Welcome and yep...as Toth said, you'll need to make 25 posts in order to have full priviledges on the board...this is for the consideration of current members until we mods get to know you :wink: 

Her weight and size at 11 months is tiny...I raise Nigerians as well as Pygmy/ND crosses and I can say that my kids at 9 and 10 weeks average 20lbs....mine are dam raised and get a creep feeder with total access to a high quality grain til they leave at 8-10 weeks, any kid I've retained has also gotten grain twice a day til after a year old, some don't do this but I found that I like to see healthy growth during the first year.

Your little Stick of Dynamite may just be from some of the older(original) ND lines, now those are some little Dwarfs, I've seen other breeders Dwarfs and mine look like monsters compared to theirs but mine are all within the breed standards as well. If you can post a pic of your sweetie and maybe a bit about her pedigree...dam, sire, grandparents, some of us here may recognize the goats behind her and be able to tell wether she's just a slow to mature ND or if it's just a fluke that she's so small.


----------



## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

How many were in her litter? Was she bottle fed? Sometimes if they are in a big litter and none were bottle fed they can be pretty small as the bigger/stronger kids hog all the milk. My doeling Vanessa is TINY and was a dam raised quad. She's almost a year old and barley comes up to my knees. She's perfectly healthy and has plenty of weight, just short.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would make sure the fecal test is not just a quick fecal float. If you have to, send it out and have a very thorough fecal test run.

I have a 9 month old Nigerian doe that is 40 lbs. I would consider 23-24 pounds at 11 months old to be very small, even for slow growing lines. Have you actually weighed her on a scale? You may be surprised if she hasn't been on a scale. You may want to wait until she is at least 18 months old to see if she would be big enough to breed.


----------



## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

You also say that she has been wormed frequently. With what at what dose. Many times even vets do not know the doses goats need to kill off certain worms. The wormer must also be repeated 7-10 days after given for most wormers to catch new hatching eggs.


----------



## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

I was also going to ask how many were there in each 1s litter. Multiple seem to be smaller IMO. I have 2 weathers that were 2 of 5 born and the 1 only weighs about 25 lbs. He's almost a year old


----------



## dlarue (Oct 10, 2011)

Hello All,

She was one of twin doelings. One blue eyed the other polled. They were Dam raised, neither were ever given a bottle.

We have wormed all of our goats about every two months. We don't have a regular schedule, we just watch their eyes and how rainy it is. The breeder we purchased her from said she was on a schedule of about every month. How regular they were with that schedule is anyone's best guess. We used Ivermectin, I believe they used the same thing.

We have weighed her, the weight listed is accurate as of a couple days ago. I actually thought the same thing, that she might weigh more than she looks so we decided to check. We had actually thought she weighed more than she does, but its just hard to guess so I'm glad we checked.

Its still early AM, I'll go shoot an updated pic of her this afternoon and post it. In the mean time, below are links to the mother and father's pedigree. Any thoughts on that are appreciated. 

Father: Simple Pleasures Truckee (Blue Eyed)









http://www.rudugastsideal.com/goats/nig ... ruckee.htm

Mother: Rudugast's DNA Fiona (Polled)









http://www.rudugastsideal.com/goats/nig ... AFiona.htm

Below is a photo of what she looked like when she was a bit younger... Its not a good shot to show her conformation, but I'll get an updated pic this afternoon and it will be better. <3


----------



## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Very nice genetics! I can say though that the genetics do play a role in how big she will be...she has ALOT of the same goats behind her that my doe Binkey has...and I know that my does sire and dam are smaller dwarfs, Binkey however is bigger than her own dam.

As far as worming "on schedule", it's easy to create resistance to wormers if they are used when not needed...and easy to inadvertantly create resistance if they are under dosed.


----------



## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

She does have nice genetics. 
I double checked some of my records on my slower growing lines...
All of my kids had passed 24 lbs by 5-6 months old at he oldest with the exception of one. Tease who is from slower growing lines and also came to me with a really bad case of cocci was 22lbs at 6mos old. 
If you can't get a fecal check done then treat for cocci. What cocci meeds do you have? Or if none do you have a TSC or vet or feed store to get stuff?
Worming like that is not good. It will allow the worms to build up resistance then creating a "superworm" that is immune to the wormer. Ivermectin is a good wormer for many worms but not all and not cocci. What kind of Ivrmectin are you using? horse paste, cattle injectable? What dose are you using? 
The best way to use that preticular wormer is a correct (bug enough depending on the kind) dose then repeated 7-10 days later to catch the newly hatching eggs since it can't kill all life stages of the worms. Otherwise you do not eradicate the worms just kill of a certain stage and they constantly reproduce. Unfortunayly many people do not worm correctly. I like you was told by the breeder I first got goats from to give a little like the size of a few M&M's once a month. :roll:


----------



## dlarue (Oct 10, 2011)

Hello All! I'm a little later getting this pic up, but here ya go:

1st is of an adult Golden Retriever, a nearly 4 year old doe, and the little one.

















Also, in reference to worming. We had thought the same thing. I personally hate to medicate anything that doesn't need it... its hard enough on them as it is! Another factor is that some of our goats tend to be "weaker" to worms than the others, so they need it more often.

We used the injectible Ivermectin for cattle. I believe we gave the adults 3CC and the two younger ones 1CC given orally. This is what we were advised to do by a breeder we got one of our goats from... We did not follow up on it, I've never heard of giving a follow up dose... I guess we should be? :scratch: Also, I was told that winter would help keep the worms down a little, is this true?

I don't have any Cocci meds on hand at the moment. We can get whatever we need, we have a tractor supply close and could order it if they didn't have it... I'm thinking that the best course of action is to just get an intensive fecal done. As an earlier poster mentioned, the vet will only do a generic fecal float. Where is the best place to get a workup done? Is there a way to collect the sample and send it off yourself like you'd normally do with CAE/CL testing?


----------



## 4theluvofgoats (Jun 9, 2011)

Cute doe  Do you know if her sister was the same size as her at birth? I had a set of triplets born last year, two bucklings & a doe. The doe was 1 lb at birth and the bucklings were 4 lbs ea. I retained her and she is still small, although she is a porker :greengrin: She is still half the size of her brother whom I still have as well. I think she's just going to take longer to mature. On the other hand, I also have a doe that came to me loaded with cocci as a kid and she stayed small until she was 18 months old.

http://www.midamericaagresearch.net/instructions.php Has lab services for fecal testing. There is a submission form and instructions. I haven't used this service but know someone who has. She had results back pretty fast.

~Christy


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

If she is well wormed I would agree with doing a cocci treatment. I use Sulmet Drinking Water Solution 12.5%. It in a tall white bottle and is rather inexpensive. It will say its for turkeys and the like on the bottle, but works on the goats. I give it orally with a syringe. 1cc per 5 pounds the first day, and 1cc per 10 pounds for 4-6 days afterwords. If you don't do five full days of treatment in a row you will just waste your time and build a resistance in the cocci to the medication. It has worked really well for me when I've had any kids that seem to be slow growing. I treat all kids at about 2-3 months old just to be sure, or any kids I bring in from outside.

I also bought a 10 month old doe kid last year that was SO SMALL. She was the size of a three month old. She was most definitely having problems. I wormed the heck out of her, treated her for cocci, gave her a BoSe shot (which you only want to do if you are in a selenium deficient area) and made sure she was getting fed grain all by herself every day with her minerals mixed directly into her ration. I then gave her a dose of Vitamin A/E/D/B12 gel once every two weeks for a few months. She is now a medium sized doe who will be two next month. Very wide and deep and a great size. Her lines WERE slower growing but she definitely needed help. You might also copper bolus if you think your herd might be low on copper. In some areas, minerals with copper aren't enough to maintain proper levels.


----------



## dlarue (Oct 10, 2011)

Thank you for that link, that was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for! :leap: 

We are going to send in samples today and see what comes of it. I'll post an update when I find out. 

Thank you again everyone for the advice, it has been very helpful. :stars:


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Love the pic ...too cute.... :thumb:


----------



## dlarue (Oct 10, 2011)

Hello All!

I just wanted to post an update as promised. We just got the test results, and she does indeed have Cocci. I'm personally pretty upset, I wish we had been more knowledgeable when we purchased them (she was one of the first two we ever purchased). Had I known what size she "should" have been we would have walked out on the spot. I felt obligated to email them and let them know... as they had a bunch of babies in with her, and they all looked about like her size wise. I personally feel that they knew about the problem in the first place, (how could you not if you breed them!) but who really knows... We are going to treat her and see what happens... I'm hoping that once we get her treated and back on her feet (or hooves I guess I should say, haha) we will start to notice a marked difference in growth... She hasn't given it to any of the others, but I'm going to separate them just as soon as I have another spot for her. 

Anyway, for future reference, I would definitely recommend Midamerica Agri Research for fecals. It was incredibly easy, we didn't even have to call them to get it done. Sent it off on the 19th, and got the results back today, the 22nd. We are pretty pleased with them. And you really can't beat $5 each. 

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread... I would never have thought that it would be so easy to diagnose, and I'm certain I never would have figured it out on my own. Its amazing what breaking down and simply ASKING a question will get you. We are certainly lucky to have this resource!! So a big THANK YOU to everyone!!! :hi5: :dance:


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Unfortunately, there are a lot of breeders out there that don't know about cocci and the major problems it can cause. All goats have some amount of cocci, but you do need to keep it under control especially when they are young. As adults they usually become immune to it so to speak and don't have issues as often or as bad as the kids do. Letting the breeder know is good...they very well may not have even heard of it unfortunately.

Glad you were about to find out what the issue was and get it taken care of. :thumb:


----------



## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Glad to know that you discovered the problem so now you can treat it. I like Albon (only from a vet) but whatever you choose to treat her with dose her directly to be sure she is getting the full dose. 

Yes unfortunately many breeders have no idea what they are doing in many respects and things like cocci can go untreated causing issues.


----------



## Fittin it in Farm (Apr 10, 2011)

I've seen the effects of cocci left untreated also. I have a doeling born June 27. And at 6 months she weights only 13lbs! It's very sad. Hopefully she catch up someday.


----------

