# making a better goat



## kikoguy

So I was just wondering if anyone here has done much crossbreeding to try and make a better meat or dairy goat and what were the breeds you crossed. I have been thinking of taking a nubianxboer and crossing that with a kiko what are your opinons on crossing breeds.


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## Used2bmimi

I am curious about that too. Can't wait to see what people have done and what works.


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## nancy d

We have put Boer over Nubian & that's great, Kiko would probably be great as well.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

I personally feel as if kikos are a poor representation of a meat goat. They lack the muscle and mass of others such as Boers and Savannas. 

If I were to have a cross, I would cross a boer and a Nubian- and a boer and savanna, then cross those back together. After that I'd breed back to a very meaty boer buck. 

I think breeding a meaty savanna to a meaty Nubian and then crossing the offspring to a boer.


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## Dani-1995

I'm of the same opinion as Hamilton Boers on this one. Kikos have never looked thick enough for me... even the ones that are noted as being thick.

I've seen some really nice saanen boer crosses too. They have huge barrels and all with a little meatiness. 

I think the best hybrid vigor, that is proven comes from nubian boer crosses. Also seen some good thing from ibex (hard to find and expensive) boer crosses


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Dani-1995 said:


> I'm of the same opinion as Hamilton Boers on this one. Kikos have never looked thick enough for me... even the ones that are noted as being thick.
> 
> I've seen some really nice saanen boer crosses too. They have huge barrels and all with a little meatiness.
> 
> I think the best hybrid vigor, that is proven comes from nubian boer crosses. Also seen some good thing from ibex (hard to find and expensive) boer crosses


Ibex influence is absolutely incredible.


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## kikoguy

See the apeal with the kiko is I don't feed my animals one bit of feed they are forage only. Plus kikos have a higher meat to bone ratio than boers. If I were to pump my bucks and does full of feed they would be just as meaty as the boers. We visited b bar w kikos in kansas and he has been playing with crossing different breeds and he had a boer there that was only forage fed and it didn't look any meatier than the kiko it was standing next to. He also has a buck that was sent to a feed conversion test were they give the buck grain and measure the efficiency, this thing looked like a tank he was just huge and dwarft the boer that was only on forage. Plus with my kikos I have only ever wormed two does and three kids and they were wormy when we picked them up I haven't wormed anyone since my buck has never been wormed and never had to do a hoof triming.


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## kikoguy

Don't get me wrong I like the looks of boers but I don't like the idea of feeding all my profit away. The animals themselves are beautiful I have just herd to many bad stories about them.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

To me this is what a meat goat looks like. These are ibex hybrids.


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## Tlambert95

I have a boerxkiko and she is HUGE. This girl gets no grain at all only hay and forage and she holds her weight well. She has a crappy attitude but I am going to cross her back to a boer next year and see what she gives me. I know that there is another person with a kikoxboer also who is a great producer also. I will attach a picture of my Nilla.


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## Dani-1995

It very well could be the kikos we have in our area. They look more dairy than meat, except they have tiny udders. Although, the kikos I have seen were not impressive to me. Of course, I show and I like a showy animal. Kikos may just be more commercial than I'm used too


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Dani-1995 said:


> It very well could be the kikos we have in our area. They look more dairy than meat, except they have tiny udders. Although, the kikos I have seen were not impressive to me. Of course, I show and I like a showy animal. Kikos may just be more commercial than I'm used too


That's how I am as well. I'm used to seeing bulging muscles and such. Kikos have always looked dairy to me. But we did have an enormous doe who was a cross- but she couldn't breed so we sold her.


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## Tenacross

HamiltonAcresBoers said:


> To me this is what a meat goat looks like. These are ibex hybrids. ]


 Are those pics from a website? Do you mind sharing?


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## mjgh06

Nobody's discussing the dairy goat crosses, but most of those have been done already.

My preference for dairy is a Alpine - Nigerian cross. I love the high butterfat content with the Nigerian but you need the Alpine cross for production.


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## Dani-1995

Tenacross said:


> Are those pics from a website? Do you mind sharing?


I believe they are kelly/hummel does. Hummel Livestock has them posted on their page on Facebook.

I know Kelly Meat Goats was working on several ibex/boer hybrids and Hummel bough their stock when they retired from goats.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Tenacross said:


> Are those pics from a website? Do you mind sharing?


As Dani said, they're Kelly does who were sold to the hummels. They're ibex hybrids, and I think they're the most powerful meat goat at there. Those are $20,000 goats EASY. I saw a Hummel buck kid sell for $60,000.


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## Tenacross

What kind of Ibex did the Kelly's originally use?
What percentage of Ibex do those does have in them? I don't think
they are getting their meat characteristics from the Ibex. 
I read something on the Hummel site about hide thickness. (tightness?)


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## kikoguy

Those are some amazing looking animals. And mjgh with your dairy goats do you see a big difference in the milk production with the cross I don't know anything about dairy goats does the cross produce more than a standard alpine or nigerian or just a better quality milk?


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## DAGills

I think that the best cross is Boer x Savanna for meat and hardiness.

I know everyone hates on boers for being susceptible to disease and what not, and trust me some are, but that's the case with any show animal.

Here is a picture of my new Herdsire at 7 months old. He was closing in on 200lbs which is an ADG of almost 1lbs. 
The farm I purchased him from has never shown, and does not breed for flashiness. They trim feet on some of their animals once....ever..And worm only once a year to be safe. 

These are some of the largest, best composed, most resistant goats I've seen, and they are 100% boer.


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## kikoguy

Very nice looking buck. I don't mean to sound so negative tward boers I would love to find some around my area that are resistant and could survive well on forage alone I would like doing some crosses and experement with the babys and other crosses


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## anthonyadams1

Im going to cross my kikos with boer to make "american meat makers". That way you have the amazing hardiness and fast growth rates of the kiko and the little better muscling and over all weight of the boer


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## DAGills

kikoguy said:


> Very nice looking buck. I don't mean to sound so negative tward boers I would love to find some around my area that are resistant and could survive well on forage alone I would like doing some crosses and experement with the babys and other crosses


Don't worry, it's totally fine!

I've gotten lucky in that I bought resistant boers(by sheer luck)
I started buying goats last year when I was 16, I had no clue what I was doing, and if it wasn't for the fact that I am located near some really nice farms, I may not have gotten boers worth a hoot!

I will say that I owned 10 Fullblood commercial boer does, who were up there in age and I only have 3 left. They were not resistant AT ALL, and it didn't help that I had no clue how old they were.


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## KarmakeeFarm

Dang those meat goats are good looking!!!! Love the bugling muscles-big fan -just wouldnt have any place on my farm but boy do I love the way they look!


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## GTAllen

The wethers on Kelly's website look like the Persian Ibex X Boer I have seen Texas.


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## Dani-1995

The most resistant goat I have had is a boer doe I raised on a bottle. The guy who gave her to me has some fairly resistant lines. I bought wethers as well and they were just as resistant


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## Tenacross

GTAllen said:


> The wethers on Kelly's website look like the Persian Ibex X Boer I have seen Texas.


 I tried to find semen from Ibex's for sale to no avail. It would be
interesting to start a little side cross breeding program. 
I wonder if those who started the cross are intentionally keeping the
secret a secret.


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## DAGills

Tenacross said:


> I tried to find semen from Ibex's for sale to no avail. It would be
> interesting to start a little side cross breeding program.
> I wonder if those who started the cross are intentionally keeping the
> secret a secret.


All of Kelly's genetics have some "ibex" in them.
(Hummel bought out Kelly btw)

http://www.hummellivestock.com/for-sale

Lot 1 is an ibex doe.

A friend of mine owns a Kelly buck, he is small, but is SOLID muscle. He'll go we'll with Fullblood boer does.


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## Dani-1995

I've seen alot of Kelly bucks... not huge framed but tons of muscle. The guy we get our wethers from has one this year that is out of Curly. He's powerful and stout!


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## kikoguy

I guess I don't understand what crossing an ibex with a boer does to make it a meatier goat.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

I don't quite get what the point of an ibex hybrid is, other than they look amazing. The lady I buy wethers from is going to have Goofy flush kids on the ground in march. If any of them need bottle feeding, I'll get them  I'm very excited about the concept of showing a Goofy kid.


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## Dani-1995

I've heard for wethers it adds feed ability, tight hide and very good top/handling. Plus, those faces and markings are beautiful.


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## Tenacross

DAGills said:


> All of Kelly's genetics have some "ibex" in them.
> (Hummel bought out Kelly btw)
> http://www.hummellivestock.com/for-sale
> Lot 1 is an ibex doe.
> A friend of mine owns a Kelly buck, he is small, but is SOLID muscle. He'll go we'll with Fullblood boer does.


 Yeah, I saw that. They talk about the Ibex doe's paper thin hide.


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## kikoguy

So does it just show the seperation of the muscle groups better or what?


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

kikoguy said:


> So does it just show the seperation of the muscle groups better or what?


Well you want a tight hide because loose skin is useless weight on a carcass and because yes, it showcases muscle much better.


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## DAGills

I just wish I could find semen on 900, he was such an impressive buck.


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## pmckracken

I think a cross to look at is a Boar/Pygmy cross for a number of reasons. One, alot of Pygmy breeders these days are trending for a very muscular build. People just like the look of it I guess because most are just pets. Some Pygmy breeders don't like it because it causes birthing problems. In any case, you can find good muscular Pygmies out there for sure. Two, often the resulting animal will be able to breed year round like a Pygmy. Three, they are hardier than Boer goats that in my limited experience can be fragile to cold and parasites. Four, they grow fast till about eight months and slow down but during the slow growth period that follows they stay tender and still hold a lot of muscle on a small frame for an extended time. This is what they look for in the ethnic markets anyway. Not as many buyers for big adult goats as the meat is tough. The Dwarf/Boer has a longer adolescence so to speak before it gets tough. I just bought a Pygmy/Boer Doe, I thought she was a buck. She's got good shoulders and a real solid build. Her fur is amazing too, extremely dense, in fact it's twice as dense as any of the goats in my herd. If I can either find or breed a Buck to breed to her I think I'll take it on as an experimental line!


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## kikoguy

She is a very good looking girl what does she weight and roughly hw tall is she keep us posted on what you breed her to and what kind of kids she throws. Thanks for getting back to my original post lol. And is she just 50/50 mix or what


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Saw this myotonic buck today. He's awesome. Would love to see him crossed with a big muscly boer doe. If they had does, id cross them with a Kelly buck to create very stout, thick, and muscly wethers.

This buck is a national champion, and has semen for sale. I'd like to buy some, but this year we have no open does, and none could be reg with the ABGA which is unfortunate.


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## pmckracken

kikoguy said:


> She is a very good looking girl what does she weight and roughly hw tall is she keep us posted on what you breed her to and what kind of kids she throws. Thanks for getting back to my original post lol. And is she just 50/50 mix or what[/QUOTE
> 
> Well we just picked her up the other day. Haven't had the chance to log her in yet with the holidays and all. My best guess is she probably weighs 115-130 lbs. That's just from lifting her outta the truck. (; She's as tall as my grown Kinder and taller than all my Nigerians. She's shorter than my Nubians however. The prior owner has a herd of registered Boers and a registered Pygmy doe. Apparently the doe got in with all the male Boers. So she's 50/50 ..and it looks like the biggest Boer won. She is the new queen of the herd. Noone messes with her. She's bigger than she looks in the pic.
> 
> P.S I looked back at my own post and realized I said she was a Dwarf/Boer cross...she is not. My mistake. She is 50/50 Pygmy/Boer


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## kikoguy

So what kind of farm do you have do you mainly have dairy or a mix of meat and dairy pmckracken


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## lovemykidds

I have a couple (bottle) kiko boer x kids, I'll let you know how they grow (;


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## kikoguy

They are good looking little guys how old are they


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## lovemykidds

They were born 12-10 very sweet and healthy! The buckling needs to be castrated ): but I'm going to sell/trade him as a wether


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## brbn

I think crossing Nubian/Boer with your kiko will help to add length. Our herd has some 100% boers and the rest are Nubian/Boer and Snubian/Boer. Our cross breeds have alot more length and they still have great width. The only thing you may loose is bone mass.
Good luck and let us know if you try it
Anna
www.freewebs.com/brbn


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## kikoguy

Thanks for the info anna. I will post my results when I get everything lined out.


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## firelight27

mjgh06 said:


> Nobody's discussing the dairy goat crosses, but most of those have been done already.
> 
> My preference for dairy is a Alpine - Nigerian cross. I love the high butterfat content with the Nigerian but you need the Alpine cross for production.


I prefer the LaMancha/Nigerian cross...or at least the idea of one. I really want to try, but need to buy a Manchie or two first! I like that they have a reputation for high butterfat, as does the Nigerian...but have heard the mini-manchas can tend to have higher production than straight Nigerians without getting too large for people like me, who like the convenience of the itty-bittys.


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## winky

I came across this Boer/Aline cross purely by chance a few days ago and bought her as a dual purpose... She's super friendly, has good milk stand manners, has a great udder and produces lots of milk and she'll make great meat kids. I'm hoping the Alpine in her will extend her lactation long enough to get 8-10 months of milk out of each breeding. She's already bred to a purebred Boer this year but maybe I'll try a Kiko or Kiko/Boer cross next year???


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## lovemykidds

winky said:


> I came across this Boer/Aline cross purely by chance a few days ago and bought her as a dual purpose... She's super friendly, has good milk stand manners, has a great udder and produces lots of milk and she'll make great meat kids. I'm hoping the Alpine in her will extend her lactation long enough to get 8-10 months of milk out of each breeding. She's already bred to a purebred Boer this year but maybe I'll try a Kiko or Kiko/Boer cross next year???


Congrats!! She is amazing!


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## kikoguy

I hadn't thought of crossing a boer and alpine that is a good looking doe congrats on purchasing her.


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## Tenacross

winky said:


> I came across this Boer/Aline cross purely by chance a few days ago and bought her as a dual purpose... She's super friendly, has good milk stand manners, has a great udder and produces lots of milk and she'll make great meat kids. I'm hoping the Alpine in her will extend her lactation long enough to get 8-10 months of milk out of each breeding. She's already bred to a purebred Boer this year but maybe I'll try a Kiko or Kiko/Boer cross next year???


I like her. What an udder!


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## lovemykidds

winky said:


> I came across this Boer/Aline cross purely by chance a few days ago and bought her as a dual purpose... She's super friendly, has good milk stand manners, has a great udder and produces lots of milk and she'll make great meat kids. I'm hoping the Alpine in her will extend her lactation long enough to get 8-10 months of milk out of each breeding. She's already bred to a purebred Boer this year but maybe I'll try a Kiko or Kiko/Boer cross next year???


I would breed her to my boer Nubian x (; I'm showing her off to my goat peeps! Everyone's asking if she's for sale haha


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## kikoguy

I wish I could find some boer nubian does around here that ion out of would take a generation out of my breeding plan


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## lovemykidds

kikoguy said:


> I wish I could find some boer nubian does around here that ion out of would take a generation out of my breeding plan


I'll have boer Nubian kids this month and 1/2 boer 1/4 Nubian 1/4 toggenberg kids next month (;


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## myfainters

I think myotonics are some of the best meat goats that the U.S has to offer.  They are easy gain on browse, high parasite resistance and gorgeous. I'm not a big fan of the kikos...too dairy IMO, Like the look of Boer but not the cost to feed, care for them or the fact that when you dress them out you get so much bone waste. Yes, they are a massive animal...but for the cost to care for them vs. what you get out...just not worth it to me. I love that my Myos are so easy to care for and theya re also colorful and flashy and pretty to look at when they are out grazing or just snuggling in my lap as well as taste great for dinner. LOL I know a lot of commercial breeders have recently discovered the usefulness of cross breeding with Myos to improve their meat to bone Ratio on both Savannahs, Kiko and Boers.... but I personally am a fan of just a big ,pure Myotonic.  Although... YES, I am biased!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL But all of the meat goat studies that Myos have been entered in...the Myo has always come out on top for Meat to bone ratio and the best part of that is, the producer didn't have to put half as much food into that animal as you do with other breeds.


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## kikoguy

The problem I have is finding myos that haven't been bred down small for pets I have found some online but they were a long drive. I would like to get some to cross with but will have to wait and find some.


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## SDBoerGoats

I have fullblood Boers, ( a FB buck and some does), half Kiko half Boer does, and a Nubian/Boer doe and some Spanish/Boer crosses. My Boers are not hard keepers or susceptible to worms. I do have to trim feet about every 6 weeks. But I have done fecals on my goats and they are always clean. I have never had cocci either. 

The one Kiko/Boer cross that has kidded the past 2 years has babies that are strong and energetic and are up fast nursing. Her buckling last year was huge and fast growing and the same this year. She had twin, one doeling and one buckling. They are some of the biggest of the herd. But my Spanish/Boer cross doe had a single by our fullblood buck who was 30 pounds when he was 3 weeks old. So right now he is winning the size contest. 

I have 4 Kiko/Boer cross doelings that I purchased from a vet who imported Yakety Yak from South Africa, and her Kiko buck is from the big Kiko ranch here who imports from New Zealand. They will be bred this fall and I am really looking forward to what they produce. This lady has a huge meat goat ranch in the hundreds and is very successful and I am excited to add these 4 does to see what they produce. 
Last year at fair the wethers out of the Spanish/Boer cross does were Grand and Reserve Market Champion in their weight division. They were by the fullblood buck. Right now my Spanish/Boer cross does are at the top of my list for favorite producers.


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## kikoguy

Nice this is some of the info I was looking for. Good luck with your girls and let us know what kind of kids they throw.


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## rmgoatfarm

We have recently begun raising meat goats and have done alot of research. We recently purchased a 75% kiko x buck to breed with our boers. So far, we love our kiko. He is outside all the time, fed only hay and seems to be very hardy.( Our temperatures are -20 C- -30 + C currently) We also purchased a LaMancha doe that we are going to breed with him to hopefully increase the milk production in our herd. Good Luck!


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