# Bucks with Defects



## OhCee (Feb 26, 2010)

Okay, I'm sure everyone has different opinions on this, but for those who breed to your own bucks- do you breed a buck even if he has defects? Like extra/spur teats in dairy breeds, or something equally undesirable. If you notice a breed defect, do you wether him, or do you write it off to "Its recessive so it doesn't matter."

I met someone with a buck out of some great lines before I got my buck (who I love and wouldn't give up for this one). Went to see him and I noticed a teat spur and he said "Well he doesn't come with papers unless you want them, but I want him to go to a breeding home" I don't know why people want so bad for bucks they raise to be bred regardless of quality/defects. I asked why and he said he just liked him and his lines and the defect probably wouldn't get passed on... at least not to his kids (but possibly the grandkids based upon recessive genetics).

I was going to get him, but I couldn't get over the teat spur. 

Anyway- I just want to know if it's considered "normal" to ignore defects like that in bucks, but not does? Or do you never ignore them? :whatgoat: 
I personally inspect my Nigis for spare and spur teats closely before I buy them...

Thanks... :type: Just trying to figure out what others in the goatie world do. :laugh:


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Ick! No way. Any animal born here that has a defect (thankfully only one kid had a teat spur) is sold to be strictly a pet, no papers to be turned over at all. While I cannot prevent the person from breeding a doe later on, I do my best to find someone not interested in breeding at all. We have only dairy goats and teat structure is very important. I know with Boer goats, it's a little different, I think. :scratch: 

Bucks can/will produce many, many more offspring than a doe ever could so it's even more important to be sure they are free of defects and have correct conformation.


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## CrossCreekTX (Aug 10, 2009)

Absolutely would not breed him. Why breed one with a defect when there are so many better ones in the world?


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I completely agree - however, the difference for me, is that doelings with defects are culled immediately - never sold....... so they are usually raised up for butcher. I can't see sending a dairy goat out that has a defect that i know that one day down the road they WILL be bred..... it is just a fact. the person may say now that they are not going to, but you know it will happen.

Bucklings, I will casterate and sell as pets.

Even as "pets" i think that the breed should be the best that it can be, and even if the offspring produced from a parent with a defect, doesn't have one - it is still in the lines and could show later.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Besides, word will get around that you sold a defective animal. You want to protect your name too.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Would never use a buck with a defect like that. The others have made great comments already.


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## Idahodreamer (Sep 19, 2009)

No. When you buy a buck you are looking for something that will set off an explosion of good conformation in the next generation of kids. If you have a lot of does, that buck is either going to change the progeny of your herd for the better or for the worse. A good buck has his weight in gold, and when chosing one I am ten times more serious and anxious than when I am buying a future addition to my doe herd. Bad bucks can ruin your herd and your herd's name!!! Especially if you're dairy . . . .
 just my two cents . . ..


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Even selling a defect buck as "pet quality" buck is not good for the breed...... because if they leave intact / sold as intact - they are being used for breeding and passing on the genes. Even if it doesn't show in the immediate progeny - it can show in later generations.


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## Idahodreamer (Sep 19, 2009)

OhCee said:


> Anyway- I just want to know if it's considered "normal" to ignore defects like that in bucks, but not does? Or do you never ignore them? :whatgoat:
> I personally inspect my Nigis for spare and spur teats closely before I buy them...


I think it's defects are defects regardless of gender---- so no I would not buy a doe with a spur or spare teat and if I did she would be butchered pretty quick....for eating . . . . I personally feel that bucks with defects are a bigger threat to your herd then a doe ---- a doe will only affect one or two or three kids, not even---- a buck will affect almost your entire herd!!!


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I'm sure there will be others that feel the same way as me but I cannot kill a goat. My choice of "culling" is finding a pet home (whether that be with an adoption fee or free). There are LOTS of people (around here anyways) that do not want to breed goats and want them strictly for pets/brush eaters.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I do butcher goats here, but it is food for the family. They are not killed and discarded. 

The problem with pet homes, is will the person truly keep that animal as a "pet" until they die, or will they sell them in a few years .... that is where my concern is. I sold a "pet" only doe - that a year later got a picture text of look at the babies that she just had - never again..... with this doe, it was just because she was so small that I didn't want her bred ...


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

kelebek said:


> I completely agree - however, the difference for me, is that doelings with defects are culled immediately - never sold....... so they are usually raised up for butcher. I can't see sending a dairy goat out that has a defect that i know that one day down the road they WILL be bred..... it is just a fact. the person may say now that they are not going to, but you know it will happen.
> 
> Bucklings, I will casterate and sell as pets.
> 
> Even as "pets" i think that the breed should be the best that it can be, and even if the offspring produced from a parent with a defect, doesn't have one - it is still in the lines and could show later.


You cant register any offspring from a nonregistered nigieran buck ever so that doesnt hold water.

I think you made your point well Allison that you think culling should mean butcher and that its your opinion do to so.

I personally would not use a buck who has any defect of any kind. I also will not keep a doe with papers who has a defect of any kind. The doe will not be registered and therefor her kids can not be as well so therefore the breedlines are protected and will never be tainted with a defect. This is in the nigerian breed only. With standard dairy goats they can be registered as experimental/grade but if there is a defect of any kind the registry will not accept them.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

This is when you get the bander out or whatever method you use if you are selling them for any reason except the table.

I think what Allison was saying was that the defects could show up down the line.


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## OhCee (Feb 26, 2010)

StaceyRoop said:


> I personally would not use a buck who has any defect of any kind. I also will not keep a doe with papers who has a defect of any kind. The doe will not be registered and therefor her kids can not be as well so therefore the breedlines are protected and will never be tainted with a defect.


So would you breed a doe out of registered parents who isn't registered herself because she has a defect that makes her unregisterable?

Some people are concerned with their own bloodlines, yes. But some are just plain concerned with not passing on recessive alleles for defects to make every offspring of the tainted animal a carrier... I don't see how simply not papering a doe with a spur teat solves any problems. Is it acceptable for unregistered Nigerians to have defects?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

With meat goats or land management brushers breeders..... all they want is more numbers of goats and the quality or defects are never an issue..... In those situations... it is understandable.... they can't go out and buy... expensive faultless animals to do so..... they buy unregistered cheap goats...... 

I am not saying... I like defects... I won't breed to them myself.....as I strive for Show quality animals.... but ...we have to remember.... that there are those that defects mean nothing....and they... will never be registered..... So it all depends on... what a breeder is planning on doing... with their herd.. :wink:


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## OhCee (Feb 26, 2010)

nancy d said:


> This is when you get the bander out or whatever method you use if you are selling them for any reason except the table.
> 
> I think what Allison was saying was that the defects could show up down the line.


Haha! Well I don't band OTHER people's animals without permission  But I would've if it was an option for sure.

And yes, I believe Allison was talking about how a recessive defect is passed on and shows later in the line. Anyone who knows genetics and Punnet squares will understand how a homozygous recessive (exhibits defect) "tt" parent and even a homozygous dominant (non-carrier) "TT" parent will have ALL "Tt" kids. Making every single offspring a carrier of the recessive allele (100% of the time). If the homozygous dominant parent were heterozygous, half of the offspring (statistically, not a for sure) will exhibit the undesirable characteristic "tt" and the other half will simply carry it on.


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## OhCee (Feb 26, 2010)

toth boer goats said:


> With meat goats or land management brushers breeders..... all they want is more numbers of goats and the quality or defects are never an issue..... In those situations... it is understandable.... they can't go out and buy... expensive faultless animals to do so..... they buy unregistered cheap goats......
> 
> I am not saying... I like defects... I won't breed to them myself.....as I strive for Show quality animals.... but ...we have to remember.... that there are those that defects mean nothing....and they... will never be registered..... So it all depends on... what a breeder is planning on doing... with their herd.. :wink:


I totally get that. Teat number/placement really doesn't matter if the goat's in the freezer program heh. I don't know anything about meat, which is why i just kinda did a blanket statement for non-dairy breeds of "equally undesirable" traits.. which there may not even be in meat or fiber goats? I don't know. But if there is something that is a defect in other types of goats, too- the same concept applies.

I know there are plenty of defects that truly don't affect an animal's end quality, but in the diary breeds, teat defects seem to be a very serious thing, whereas in meat goats- who cares? lol It really is all about what the breeder wants for their herd.

I was just trying to see how people deal with animals that display recessive defects, and if they are seen as a serious issue, or not so much... I have learned that everyone has their own way of doing things, but given the poll response, I don't think everyone's responding? I'm sure there's someone out there who will breed an animal who has a spur teat and market the animals as pets? Maybe not on this board as everyone seems to agree? I dunno, I was expecting a more varied response. to the question.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

StaceyRoop said:


> You cant register any offspring from a nonregistered nigieran buck ever so that doesnt hold water.
> 
> I think you made your point well Allison that you think culling should mean butcher and that its your opinion do to so.


Stacey, unfortunately, there are registries that will take NON AGS or ADGA animals - NMGA and also the IDGA - will register these animals and people breed specifically for these registries to say that they "are registered". So yes, I have an issue with allowing an animal with a defect to be allowed to keep reproducing. AGS, ADGA, or anyother registry or no registry - should not be breeding if there is a genetic defect. Yes that is my opinion - but that is how the Nigerian came to be recognized was the "founding herd" along with others such as Kinders, Tennessee Fainters, and so on - all started from a founding line - so why keep the bad traits in the lines?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

alright I am about to close this topic if people dont just settle down a bit! 

State your opinion and leave it!!!!


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Stacey, I did state my opinion and leave it - you mentioned the registry, so I wanted to make sure that others know that they CAN be registered under others ..... so that is something that has to be considered also......


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## OhCee (Feb 26, 2010)

Ok, I'm just trying to figure out if I'm reading opinions _right_ and asking for confirmation. Sometimes it can be unclear what someone's trying to say and it's better to ask and get it from them, than assume my interpretation of their words is right.

It's really hard to know what people are saying when they use vague wording, so I'm just trying to clear it up. You don't have to respond to my question if you don't want, but I figured I would give you the chance at least, because your response is actually different than the typical response I'm getting and I find it interesting.

Clearly not everyone is answering the poll, so I'm trying to take into account the text answers also.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

OhCee said:


> StaceyRoop said:
> 
> 
> > I personally would not use a buck who has any defect of any kind. I also will not keep a doe with papers who has a defect of any kind. The doe will not be registered and therefor her kids can not be as well so therefore the breedlines are protected and will never be tainted with a defect.
> ...


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok I will try. Keep in mind I know nada about Nigies as we do mostly Boers.
There really are different ways of doing this depending on goals.
Personally I would never send an intact out into the world with a known defect. I have sent a buckling out I knew he would feed the family & he had cluster teats. It has not shown up since.
Sure you have your pet people out there who might not give a rip if the goat has four eyes three legs and not playing with a full deck. 

I have not seen anything stated worthy of settling down but then again I can be pretty insensitive. :wink: 

For Boers, in the ring, she must have clean teats, whether its two or four. 
She can have a split teat (haha we are splitting teats now) but it has to be I forget how seperate but I have seen them take the blues with split teats.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Furthermore, I kept a doe here for 3 yrs who never settled. It took that long to finally see her short dippy back. 
Breed standards know what they are talking about. Even if you never show there are reasons behind them.


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

Okay, going to go out on a limb here.

I'm taking a very fine buck in soon. Very nice who has thrown some gorgeous kids. Why am I getting him?

Because he has a small teat spur.

He will not come with his papers, and I will not be allowing any bucklings out of him to remain intact. I breed for the pet market. Color, size, temperament, those are all hugely important. Teat structure, not so much. I do milk my own does, and even had a doe with a teat spur (Cowbell.) She was my best milker before being retired and moving on to a petting zoo. None of her kids exhibited the trait. 

If it was something detrimental to the goat's health, no way would I allow the goat to remain intact. But this isn't, and in my market, makes no difference. Very few of my goats are registered, my kids are unregistered, and we don't show. So it's okay for us.

Do I completely understand and respect the other side of this debate? Yes! If I was showing and breeding for show, I wouldn't be using this buck. 

So that's the other side of it, and I do hope no one loses respect for my position on it.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Registered dairy for show or milk I would not breed if either buck or doe showed teat defects.
I do however have cross goats and each freshened doe gets milked, regardless of wether they are PB or crosses.... My Registered does ( 1 will be a FF next year) may not have "perfect" udders BUT I do love easily milked and very capacious udders, Defects of teat structure are not acceptable in PB to me, however my pygmy buck does have an extra teat...and because his kids are pets only I don't mind it because he produces very sweet and very small pets. Bucklings are always wethered and doelings are pets only. And, I have 2 of his does here from different dams, neither have an extra teat and only one is a "pet maker", she has passed on that extra teat to 2 of her 5 kids.

An extra teat in a pet is not detrimental because that pet is not being bred to pass it on. I feel the same way as far as the legs and feet go...a severe "toe in or toe out" should not be used as breeding stock simply because it can be crippling to the animal and is a trait that is genetic.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Epona you stated your position well! You are breeding for the pet market. Im breeding for meat. Others commercial.
There's all kinds of needs & wants out there & we all fit in. 
For us if someone happens to be showable its just icing on the cake.


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## Galavanting Goat (Apr 27, 2010)

Epona142 said:


> Okay, going to go out on a limb here.
> 
> I'm taking a very fine buck in soon. Very nice who has thrown some gorgeous kids. Why am I getting him?
> 
> ...


Epona, i'm with you on this one, we use our girls for milk, their extra teats are of no issue to us, it doesn't make them any less of whom they are because they are different, at least not in our eyes. 
We also have rescue goats come in, not just goats of low rank but goats that at one stage held high status position, so neglect and passing a goat off doesn't just happen to unregistered or backyard bred goats.

If we had a bub born with a defect that would be a danger to its health causing it to suffer then yes, we would put its welfare first and have it put out of it's misery.

We spend many hours and big $$$ on our rescues and milk does, as many do on their prize milkers etc but both types have their ways and reasons for doing things, and yet i'm sure both types love them just as much as each other, at least I hope they would.

We have a doeling here that has fish teats, for some this would be a serious issue to deal with especially in the show ring, but for us, she is just one of many blessings in our lives, if we had've culled her we would have missed out on so much of what she offers us.


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## Idahodreamer (Sep 19, 2009)

Let me just say that I never meant to push my ideals on anybody---I was just stating my oppinion about how it would go if it was me. 
Everyone has a program for their herd. I respect that and I think they are all great. My program is to breed registered dairy goats that excell both in the milking area and in the showring and have wonderful loving temperaments to boot. Epona raises pet quality goats that bring joy to many families and help weed and brush farms..... 
ray: forgive me for coming across wrongly.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I read Olivia's response and was like...exactly! 

We have yet to have a defect like a teat spur, but if that should happen the goat will be banded or a doe will be sold to a pet home, no papers, and the parent(s) may be sold. I don't think culling by butchering is a good choice for dairy breeds especially the little nigies... nigerians you really won't get much meat off of a doe so even growing the kid up and fattening it for butcher seems like a big waste of money and space. There are plenty of people out there looking for pet goats and if they do end up breeding that isn't a big deal. The goat isn't registered...it will be in a pet market where little flaws like that don't really matter. I much rather give or sell to a home that just wants some little goats for pets than to butcher. 

Call me soft, but every goat deserves a good home and if there is one out there why not just go that route. After all, we did bring it into the world. But don't get me wrong, if you are breeding to butcher that is great, I don't disagree with it...I love my meat, but I think for something like a nigerian it isn't hard to find a good pet home at a discounted price.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

A few years ago I bought a buck, I had looked all over for these specific lines and I was so happy when I got him. When his kids started hitting the ground I was even more excited, they were just so gorgeous, long, level and ohso dairy. He had pretty much fixed most of the conformational faults that my does had.......and added a fault of his own. He didn't have extra teats but 6 of his 11 kids did. I was so devastated. He had to be put down for medical reasons but I was so tempted to keep his only daughter. It was tempting because she was just a gorgeous doeling, but in the end I had to make the tough decision and decide that regardless of how great the lines were, how awesome she looked, I couldn't keep a clear conscience and keep that doe kid knowing that her progeny could possibly be carrying that defect. So she unfortunately went to the butcher along with her brothers.

Personally I think that any dairy animal with a defect should be culled from the herd and not used for breeding, even if it is sold as a pet. I am talking about standard sized dairy goats here though, because unlike nigis, an unregistered standard doe can be registered as NOA even if she has a defect and the offspring can be registered and bred up to american status. Goats with defects can still be registered, because nobody checks for defects unless the animal is being shown. Due to some bad experiences with pet buyers, we now butcher all of our culls, regardless of age or sex. The guy who I sold my last pair of pet does to last year called me last week asking if we had anymore does for sale because the pair that I sold him died :angry: :veryangry: :angry: :veryangry:


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

I voted yes because I always see in shades of gray. It depends on the type of defect, I guess. If it's four teats, I've since learned it's okay for boers to have them and two of our three boers do. Now since we are raising primarily for meat goats, I would love to find a goat with five legs...six would be even better!  
But on a serious note, there are lots of "defects" like not a completely straight topline, or maybe a little down in the pasterns in the back...something that could have been caused by being cramped in mama's belly. I'd venture to say that every single goat has a defect of some sort: hooves that need trimmed too often, not parasite resistant enough, doesn't gain weight and grow fast enough, horns not the perfect shape, ears not long enough or not short enough, short lactating period, not enough milk a day, etc.
If I was breeding dairy goats and teats were very important to the goat's purpose (milking), then I wouldn't breed for those defects. That would make as much sense as getting meat goats that grow very slow and are lanky. :wink:


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

It's kind of interesting on some of the big meat goat websites more than two teat is a good thing! Not so dairy goats...why is that? Why would you not want another teat? Because there isn't another chamber and it just has more chance of infection? I know why in meat goats you don't mind more than two...more than two babies can eat at the same time! LOL
A teat spur is like another little thing off a teat?


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I have had experience with boers and the extra teats usually are non functioning, therefore you can't nurse more than two kids at a time. With dairy goats, extra teats(or spurs, which are teat like things that shoot off the side or top of the main teat) are non functioning, and therefore get in the way when you are milking, whether its by hand or machine. In my personal opinion, extra teats also look stupid on a dairy goat since they're just hanging out there and not doing anything, it really doesn't give the udder a clean and defined look when you have extra teats. Its about appearance as much as it is usability.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Goathappy is mostly right, alot of Boers have two that arent functioning. I have one with 4 working teats & one of her daughters also has 4 working.


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## 7acreranch (Mar 8, 2010)

Define defect and what your plan is for your operation. If you are raising meat goats for butcher or even 4h wethers what many may define as defects are not relative to the operation.


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## OhCee (Feb 26, 2010)

7acreranch said:


> Define defect and what your plan is for your operation. If you are raising meat goats for butcher or even 4h wethers what many may define as defects are not relative to the operation.


I figured the "equally undesirable" statement took care of that issue, but if it's that important that I get specific to meat also, which I know very little about... How about cow hocks or weak pasterns, which DO affect meat breed development and tone?


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't think that cow hocks and weak pasterns would effect meat development and tone, but faults such as those(which can be easily bred out) shorten the productive life of an animal. A doe with weak pasterns for example may not be able to carry her kids as easily as she gets older, which could lead to her slowing down during pregnancy, which in turn could lead to things such as ketosis, milk fever etc. And also structural faults are not necessarily hereditary but can be the result of poor management choices, but those structural faults that are hereditary like I said before can be easily bred out with the right genetics.


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## OhCee (Feb 26, 2010)

I've never heard of poor leg conformation having zero affect on muscle tone... First time for everything.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

well i can't say for certain that it doesn't effect muscle tone, I don't remember since I never payed that close of attention to conformation when we had the boers  I do remember that our main sire was cow hocked but he was still well muscled and so were his kids, so I'm not sure :shrug:


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## CrossCreekTX (Aug 10, 2009)

I breed rare poultry. Many of the breeds have been kept going by back yard breeders who don't hatch a lot of young each year. Because of this and the fact that many refuse to cull hard, the breeds are dying out due to poor hatchability and viability. They've been medicated and bred, even though they are not "thrifty doers". The only way to bring these breeds back is to cull and cull hard. I've butchered many a bird that other people would have kept, but that gives me strong, healthy breeders. By culling all the weaker birds, I have more resources to give to the others and can breed greater numbers. If my coops and pens are full of substandard birds I cannot breed for better birds.

I don't think breeding goats is any different, except you aren't dealing with the sheer numbers that you do with poultry. 

I don't condemn anybody for not culling if they don't pass a defective animal to someone else that might breed it. Once that animal leaves your farm, you have no control over what happens to it.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

That did remind me....I do have to say... that with ...the "meat goat industry".... there is a shortage....the meat is high in demand and there isn't enough goats to provide the demand.... So defects should mean nothing especially in.... the world of meat..... :wink: 

It all depends on ...what breed ...what an individual is striving to do with them....
so......no one... is in the wrong.... if you want the true facts.... because we all do cull.... here and there...for many different reasons.... and no one individual goat will even be 100% no flaw producer...it always seems to appear from somewhere in the pedigree.... it's a little hit and miss...anywayz... :wink: :thumb:


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## CrossCreekTX (Aug 10, 2009)

Yes, but aren't you culling when you send a goat to market for meat? You are only keeping the best for breeders.

I agree that different people cull for different things. I never keep an animal that gets wormy or one that has a bad temperament. I don't feed a lot of grain and if the goat needs a lot of grain to be productive, I don't keep her. They have access to more high quality grass and browse than they could possibly eat and I need them to utilize that. Other people need goats that can do well dry lotted because they can buy feed but have no acreage to grow their own.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Yes, but aren't you culling when you send a goat to market for meat? You are only keeping the best for breeders.
> 
> I agree that different people cull for different things. I never keep an animal that gets wormy or one that has a bad temperament. I don't feed a lot of grain and if the goat needs a lot of grain to be productive, I don't keep her. They have access to more high quality grass and browse than they could possibly eat and I need them to utilize that. Other people need goats that can do well dry lotted because they can buy feed but have no acreage to grow their own.


My does.. only get grain... every once in a while.... mine are easy keepers..... they may look like I do ..but... I don't...... the only time they get thin looking is when.... we dry them up....at weaning time....but... it doesn't take long.... for them to pick up on their weight..... They are on Irrigated pasture....and get thrown hay and given grain once in a while .....

yes... I do cull and keep the very best.... but I do have to admit... I do have 1 beautiful doe...with a teat spur.. that has given me perfect teated babies and their babies have been perfect also....some are lucky and not produce them...or maybe pop out with them... once in a while.....while with other goats ...that is all they throw..........you just never know...... :shrug: 
With some breeders it means nothing ...as to others... it means everything...and I respect that...because yes ...I strive for the best too.......this topic keeps going and going and going... back and forth and no one is giving in ..... I completely understand and respect both sides...


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Inheritable traits are so facinating! I hear this & that & only have a little experience to draw from. That & my goat friends.
We like the 4 teats round here especially if they are functioning! A good friend of mine insists on only breeding for 2.
This yr we used who I was told was a 2 teated buck. We got plenty 4 teated doelings, some of them even appear like they could be working.
My 2 teated % with a spur threw a 75% 4 teated doeling. 
I must confess though, the first time I saw 4 teats I was horrified, didnt know they were originally created that way in the Boer world.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Inheritable traits are so facinating! I hear this & that & only have a little experience to draw from. That & my goat friends.
> We like the 4 teats round here especially if they are functioning! A good friend of mine insists on only breeding for 2.
> This yr we used who I was told was a 2 teated buck. We got plenty 4 teated doelings, some of them even appear like they could be working.
> My 2 teated % with a spur threw a 75% 4 teated doeling.
> I must confess though, the first time I saw 4 teats I was horrified, didnt know they were originally created that way in the Boer world.


HeHe...yep.....now they allow them in the ABGA ...2x2 clean.... it took a while of being convinced.. that they are well worth their use..in gold and to recognize that boers ...do have trips or quads and with the extra pipping...makes it more logical... :thumb:

I like the 2x2 working spickets...as well ....with the boers ....especially if they have trips or quads.... I don't ever have to bottle feed ...it is so great...the boers that have trips... can handle all 3 ....my boer kids.. are always full and very healthy.... I have to admit.... they are a bit odd looking ....when you see them the 1st time... :wink: :greengrin:


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## zoomom (Feb 27, 2010)

I guess it would depend on the defect. With the buck, never. Does, to me, it would depend on what it was. Like blue eyes in a breed that didn't allow them, is a defect, but if you are using the doe for milk, and selling the unregistered babies as pets, does it matter? (i'm honestly asking, i don't know for sure) Is that perpetuating a defect? The animals on my farm are either useful, or in the favored pet status after years of service, or they are culled. 

I was thinking it was kind of like my chickens. I get SO MANY boys, that I can be really picky about which ones i keep (of course it is easy for me to cull a roo, i don't think i could bring myself to cull a buck the same way - i'd just band them, and sell for a pet) With the hens, if they have a defect that could be passed on, like a silky with only 4 toes, or pink skin, I don't breed them, but i do use them for pets, eggs, and brooding.


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## cyanne (Jan 7, 2009)

We just had our own experience with this and I have to say that I would not judge anybody for making whatever choice they felt was right for their own situation as I know we had to make some very tough decisions and it was not easy.

We started off with a few unregistered Nigis for home milkers and pets, then went to a couple of shows and got hooked. So we started building our own foundation herd from some of the best herds we could find. We brought in animals from Piddlin Acres, Pecan Hollow, Lost Valley, etc... Our first crop of home-bred kids hit the ground this Spring and we were very excited to finally have some with OUR herd-name on them. We decided to retain a polled buckling out of our best doe and had 2 other bucklings whose dam had a nice enough udder to justify selling them as bucks. There was another buckling that we decided to band because his dam's 2F udder just wasn't good enough that we felt he should be kept intact. Then we had a single doeling, also out of our best doe that we retained.

At our first buck show, we brought along the retained buckling and his sire, who was the first registered buck we bought. He came from a very reputable breeder, excellent bloodlines, etc. His breeder checks over all of the kids she sells very thoroughly and guarantees them free of any disqualifying defects.

So, we took him to the show, and in the first ring we walked into the judge found a spur teat (silly me, I had not checked his teats since he was a baby). Since we were very close on numbers for sanction, the judge let us stay in and placed us last. To make sure that there were enough animals to make sanction, I did not scratch him from the remaining rings and none of the other judges even noticed the teat. In those rings he placed 3rd place twice and 1st place once against some very tough competition, so his overall conformation is good...there was just the one stupid fault.

Thankfully the breeder was WONDERFUL about it and immediately offered to replace him. We paid extra to 'upgrade' to a buckling out of a finished champion doe. That part was easy, what was not easy was making the decision to have to band ALL of the Spring bucklings, including the one I wanted to keep. Just felt awful to scrap everything and go back to the drawing board.

But, we want to be competitive eventually and maintain a good reputation, so all the buckings got the big green cheerio. The little doeling we retained will probably end up as a pet in our herd as I don't want to sell her. Beau is going to Epona, as she had admired his lovely color and personality and was willing to take him, faults and all, since she breeds for pet and brush management. He will be going without his papers so that his fault does not taint any future lines of show animals.

Now, I know some people may not agree with that last part, but I was not willing to send him to market as BBQ and paying around $150 to have my vet neuter him was not something I wanted to do either when a pet wether sells for $50 around here if you are lucky...and that's pushing it when you are talking about an adult wether who is not longer little and cute.

My feeling on defects is that I firmly believe that people breed/raise goats for different purposes and various defects can be more or less detrimental depending on what purpose they have for those animals. In the case of showing dairy animals or selling them for milk production, a teat spur is a BIG deal...for a pet that is going to hang out in the yard and eat brush or a meat goat, overall health, temperament, color, etc... may be something that breeder finds more important. 

And then there are those that take in the unwanted, 'special' goats and appreciate them for their differences...and I don't think there is anything wrong with that either.

In our case, we set out with the goals of having competitive show animals that excel in the showring and in the milk parlour, so we won't be using any animals with serious defects in our own breeding program and we strive to breed in a way that improves any less-serious defects down the line. What others choose to do is their decision and I respect that. 

The only caveat I would add is that I would hope that a breeder would be honest about any defects present when they sell their kids. That way it gives their buyers the choice to decide whether they are comfortable bringing an animal into their own herd. You'll notice that the better breeders will tell you not just the good points of their animals, but will also point out what areas need work.


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

Excellent post Cyanne. As you pointed out, if anyone hadn't already figured it out before, I am taking Beau and he will be a great addition to our little herd of pets and home milkers.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I have to agree...Cyanne you make some very good points and I too am one that know each of my kids from the nose to the tail and am very upfront with buyers, even the pets, on any defects they have. Most don;'t even pay mind to a wether with 3 teats...he's a pet, nothing more.


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