# 3 day old doelings not "perky"



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

Hi, I've written a bit of a novella, but trying to be thorough so maybe someone can help me figure out what is my next best step.

LaVerne finally had her kids Sunday afternoon, and it went well for the most part. Had 4 little feet coming out all at once, but I went in and redirected, and everything proceeded normally. Two tall doelings! Yay

They both got up and nursed, good momma cleaned them up, towelled as well, and since it's been too cold, around freezing, I have a heat lamp in a corner with a blanket for them to lie on. Gave Verny Se & E gel, and some B complex gel, kids got B complex gel (I don't remember that I gave the kids Se&E). Everything seemed good, and it was cold, so hanging by the heat lamp seemed normal.









Monday, they were pooping and peeing, and nursing a bit... walking around a little, but not much energy, or gusto to nurse. Resting a lot, but hey, newborns and it was still pretty cold out.

Tuesday, more of the same, and I thought they just didn't seem to be filling out, nor super interested in nursing, but they did briefly, a few times while I watched. So I decided to milk Verny a bit and make sure no congestion or heat, that milk was flowing easily, etc. No heat, but firmly full, so I milked about a pint and a half (my first time- goodness, hairy udder!), but had brought out warmed replacer in a bottle and tried that for the kids. meh. not much interest, though I did squirt some in, and got a few gulps down each one, maybe a total of 1 oz. Also gave kids Se & E gel, what I could get to stay in their mouths, maybe 1/2cc at the most. 
When I went back out in the late evening, they were up and cavorting around, acting like I think kids should, so I figured that was all they needed to get in gear. 









Today, more of the same lackadazical manner- nursed very briefly, mom seemed quite full, and interest in the warm bottle of mom's milk from yesterday again rather "meh"... like they either aren't hungry, or they just aren't firing on all cylinders. I managed to get about an ounce in each one, took two sessions to get them to swallow that much, but they do mouth the nipple, and swallow. Repeated the small doses of Se&E, B complex, as well as MultiSpecies Colostrum gel and a bit of Probios for goats. Washed those down with more Mom milk from the bottle, just to try to make sure they got some of the supplements into their system.

I did watch them engage a bit with the little bucks in the pen beside them, and jumped around a little, but again, quickly fatigued and more snuggling into the blanket under the heat lamp. Mom is attentive, and stands nicely for them when they want to nurse, but honestly, I don't think that they are getting much into their tummies considering how full she seems.

Comparing their size to the little bucks born last Thurs, they are about the same as far as not having fat tummies, but the sheer energy of those boys in general really makes me wonder if the doelings are not really thriving, and therefore, what can I do to help them along?

Haven't weighed them- I will tomorrow. Also didn't get a temp, didn't think of it while I was out there, but will next trip out there. 
The vet is on emergency service only, plus they are a hike from me and I'm not sure about their "goat specialist"- I use their equine service usually, and well, it isn't cheap so I would like to do all I can before calling. 
Our state is on lockdown, but I can probably go to TSC if there is something else to try, and a goat friend works there, has good answers when I have questions.

I am wondering if I will be milking and feeding bottles to these kids just to get them moving? Will they get with the program eventually? Only thing I haven't done is cod liver oil (don't have any) nor an enema, but they have passed their meconium and are passing milk poop so I don't see any reason to subject them to that.

Any ideas? See any gaping holes in what I am doing? Cross my fingers and hope?


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Definitely need a temp.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How do their bellies feel?
Full, firm, empty?

Get a temp as suggested.

Have they pooped black stool yet or have colostrum color poo?
Or no poo at all?

Give an enema, if you do not see any poo or trace of it on their bum.

They look hunched a bit.


----------



## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Temp like karen said is important
If you think them cold put a sweater on them for a few days. The one looks a bit hunched down. Could be cold or a tummy ache.
B complex every day. They will pee out what they do not need.
Weigh them daily
If mom seems very full.. milk out some every day. It is fine to do that. Freeze it in case you need it later for someone. .
Check the kids for cleft pallet.. just a thought i had


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

They have pooped out the meconium, and have pooped yellow milk poop, normal consistency.
Bellies feel tiny, like they are not filling up.

One is a bit more with it than the other, as far as having a bit more energy, brighter look in her eye. The other one's eyes don't have a lot of spark, especially when I give her a bottle- like she zones out or disengages. She has a bit of an odd shaped chin, not underslung bite as far as jaw alignment, but, well, here's a picture:










If there was a cleft palate, wouldn't the milk run out their nose? I will check that when I go out to get their temps.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It does sounds like the kids got colostrum, but something doesn't seem right, if the bellies are not full.

Check mama's udder.
Is it hard, overly full, or has lump feel to it? Or soft and OK?

Milk out some to make her more comfortable and see if her milk is OK and flowing properly.

If she is not flowing properly, it may be congested or mastitis is started.


----------



## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

I always give my newborns a finger touch of red cell & nutri drench. It seems to give them energy. I agree with above. Get a temp. Put sweaters on..and make sure they are passing feces & urine. What are you feeding mom? Is her famacha in good #s. Is she getting minerals? Does mom have a temp?


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

103.1 and 102.5, so, normal. no cleft palate that I can see or feel.

They both got up and nursed, strong head butts (strongest I've seen from them), but for all of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 sips and done. Seemed alert, and coordinated while up, then right back to the heat lamp bed.

Meanwhile the little guys next door were all up in my face, exploring, quizzical... just different personalities maybe? Their mom is the leader I guess, and the doelings's mom is quite reserved, stand offish.

Mom's udder is a-ok, full and functioning, no mastitis, no heat. She is getting a mix of Kent 16% pellets, whole oats, alfalfa pellets and BOSS. Plus grass alfalfa blend hay that is very nice, fine and palatable. She has been on loose minerals (Purina) with Se&E paste supplement before kidding and after. Dewormed a month ago, and again Tues morning.

Everybody is pooping and peeing, the little girls pee a significant amount when they get up, and poo is normal yellow milk poop.

I will see if my neighbors have some RedCell, but I have molasses in a pinch. Mom got molasses in water at kidding.


----------



## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

I have a myotonic doe, that is way too passive. She is small and had twin boys. The boys are 3 weeks old, and are just now interacting like little butt head bucklings. One of the twin boys had a hunch stance, until he got a good mouthfull of the minerals. Not now. I really think for some, if all medical reasons are answered. It could be some of their personality . It seems to be for these twins. But now. They are into everything...geez...i think I liked them better when they were quiet & laid back...








The 2 in the background. Thats the best theyve been in a week.


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

Those are good looking little guys!

Maybe it is personality. The boys and the girls are like night and day. I sit in the boys pen, and they climb all over my legs, challenging each other to jump over me, tasting my clothes, hair... the girlies are quiet, but did explore my clothes a little just now, tasting, bumping... maybe they just need a little more attention, a little slower to get going in cold weather (like me).


----------



## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

Thanks. I have to remind myself everday the first week..they have only been here x day(s). My doelings are not as active as my bucklings...lol but my doelings can run faster..lol. I have 19 bucklings & 4 doelings...so..I understand why the run...


----------



## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Can you supplement bottles more frequently maybe? That way you know exactly how much they are getting.


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

Yes, I'll milk momma a bit in the morning to take the pressure off, and bring the babies a bottle. I would love to get 1 oz ea into them to start the day. Fingers crossed. 

Am trying not to milk her too much, which may make her produce more, making her fuller/tighter and uncomfortable, so I am not emptying her udder. This is better for everyone in the long run, right? However, I know the pain of mastitis (and all the signs) so I will try not to let things get out of hand in either direction. 

Thanks for everyone's responses- checking and double checking the list of things to try sometimes requires the group effort. I appreciate your suggestions!


----------



## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I would try the milk, for example taste it. They say, salty taste is a sign of mastitis. If the kids don't drink all she produces, maybe it is simply because the udder is too full and under pressure?

Were she mine, I would try to empty her udder once completely, to make sure there is no mastitis starting, and maybe to make it easier for the small ones to really suckle, before they loose more energy. Obviously there is no danger of too low production!

"If the kid does not eat the milk, there is usually something wrong with either the milk or the kid." Let us hope it is, after all, an easy case that does not require vet help!!

_(Edited a typing error.)_


----------



## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

J4Julz said:


> Yes, I'll milk momma a bit in the morning to take the pressure off, and bring the babies a bottle. I would love to get 1 oz ea into them to start the day. Fingers crossed.
> 
> Am trying not to milk her too much, which may make her produce more, making her fuller/tighter and uncomfortable, so I am not emptying her udder. This is better for everyone in the long run, right? However, I know the pain of mastitis (and all the signs) so I will try not to let things get out of hand in either direction.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's responses- checking and double checking the list of things to try sometimes requires the group effort. I appreciate your suggestions!


She may just be a great producer and need milked. Do you not want to milk her regularly? She looks kinda kikoish? Nigi/sanen? Milking her will not hurt and actually may make her feel better if she is constantly full and tight right now. As the kids grow they will eat more. I would try supplement them like theee times a day.


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

Thanks for the suggestions about milking. I think she is producing a lot, and when milking it takes a couple strokes to get it flowing, one side more than the other, but once I get a good rhythm, it comes on nicely. Maybe that delayed let-down is frustrating the kids? 

I gave the girls the bottle, got maybe 1oz in each, but can feel fuller tummies. While milking, they must smell it, and come over to investigate, so I slip them on to see if they really go for it. Slow progress. They were quite bouncy and engaging while I milked and gave them the bottle, curious and exploring. I can see why bottle babies can steal your heart, looking to you as a momma.

My only hesitation on milking regularly is needing a stand. Have been sitting in the pen, kneeling, crouching... not the best for me, but Verny is pretty patient. She is Nubian x (Saanen x Boer) and seems to have a huge udder, so maybe a great producer and the babies just aren’t keeping the pressure off. 

I know I can work this out, just need to gather my frayed edges and power on! Oh, and some wood and stuff... but I’m resourceful and persistent. 

I will read up on technique, how to know when empty, handling of milk for storage, etc. I am so thankful for this forum- so many resources and helpful people. Really, you all are so great, *sniff* thx


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

@Trollmor Oh and I have tasted the milk, sweet and creamy, and the little does lick it from where it has sloshed on the side of my milk jug, so I am hopeful all is good there.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Sounds good, milking and feeding it to her kids, helps her and the kids get what the need.

You are doing a good job and will see happier and healthier kids.
They can have full bellies but not overly tight. 

She may be of been super full and the kids were not getting much on their own with sucking flow, so they stopped quickly.

When they get older, they will keep up better and things will be better.


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

@toth boer goats : Thanks for the vote of confidence!


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I have to milk my girls even with twins on..just enough to help keep the pressure off. We have 3 sets of twins right now and each have their own energy level. Making sure babies have happy tummies is important. Give moms milk you milked out over replacer is better. You're doing great!!


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

@happybleats Thanks,

If I end up with more than the kids need, how long is it good in the fridge, and should I do anything other than strain it (for hair) if I were to freeze it?

I'm curious about making cheese... research time! 
Waste not, want not.


----------



## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

It'll start to separate in the fridge, you'll want to freeze it if you want to save it. 
Farmers cheese is really easy to make. It's great on crackers or toast and you can add herbs to it for a dip. it's a great beginners cheese too.


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

Thanks @GoofyGoat


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I do lots with our milk, cheese is wonderful as Goofygoat suggested, we make a lot of that, and the cheese freezes well. We separate the cream for butter, freeze in pre-measured baggies for soap..but mostly we drink it : ) It should keep in the frig for a week or so.


----------



## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Here you go...these are easy:
Farmers cheese etc









Cajete


----------



## HungryFox (Feb 6, 2020)

I'm going to approach with a different set of thinking.
As their temps were good, but you say it was cold and they enjoy the bed by the heat source, I would call that normal.
As you say meconium is gone and milk poo is happening, plus lots of peeing, I would call that normal.

In the first few days to week of life, babies only require a small amount of milk every few hours. For Nigerians, you're looking at an average of 1 oz every 2 hours if bottle feeding them, so I would think a full sized breed requires maybe double that. Someone could educate me there, as I only have Nigi experience.
Bottle kids and dam raised kids function differently, because we force them to. If you observe closely for a lengthy time, you will catch a few little nibbles here, a few little nibbles there. Dam kids typically don't eat until their stomach is rounded like a beach ball because goat babies simply aren't designed to do so. Us humans have intervened on a level where kids can certainly thrive, but not as nature intends.

With respect, the more you bottle them, the less the natural process can happen.
I would keep mom's udder in good condition as it sounds like she has much to offer you as well as them. I don't need to tell you to just watch the babies, to evaluate if something changes to the negative.


----------



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Wow caramel! Never thought of that!


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

Good news UPDATE! 
This afternoon I stripped the pens, rebedded and just watched while I was working. They were up and exploring, tasting bits of hay, smelling things and even bouncing around some. 

After a nap, I gave them each maybe an ounce of momma’s milk, and then proceeded to milk her as long as I could manage, until my little quart pot was full. The whole time, the girls were bouncing around, nibbling and climbing on me, rooting, acting like normal little kids. When they came near, I nudged them onto a nipple for some sips, and then off they’d go, happy wagging tails! 

Mom does indeed have a lot of milk, and I know she wasn’t all the way empty, but definitely pressure relieved and much softer. I think since one side has a bit of a slow start, it might not get nursed on much. I want them to get the hang of going to Mom first, with me only as backup, but I am enjoying the whole process.

I found some plans for a stand, and have plenty of wood around. That should make the whole process a lot easier.


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

@GoofyGoat Somehow the recipes didn't come thru, but I can definitely do caramel! A local chocolatier makes yummy things with goat milk caramel, now I can give making it a try. I make a lot of caramel at holiday time, experience helps.


----------



## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

J4Julz said:


> @GoofyGoat Somehow the recipes didn't come thru, but I can definitely do caramel! A local chocolatier makes yummy things with goat milk caramel, now I can give making it a try. I make a lot of caramel at holiday time, experience helps.


They're videos and Crystal usually puts them in the video description. Hum, I'll have to look for my written ones for you.
My house is a nightmare right now, trying to deep clean and sort out stuff ....


----------



## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

ALL goats will steal your heart; just see how much effort you are prepared to make for - Verny? - ! 

Any table might help you over the edge until you get yourself a real milk stand.

Very good that there seems to be no signs of mastitis. Only a very good producer. Hm, "only" ...  I know the problem, have been in the middle of it!

It can also happen that kids give up because they get too much in one go, and feel suffocating.

A very good news that they are exploring and jumping! My worries are off!

As for cheese, I prefer fermented cottage cheese for a beginning. It is the easiest way to take care of fresh milk. Ferment it with some good sour milk or yoghurt as soon as possible after milking and filtering it, while it is still warm, let sit for a day or tow, check smell often, and when it is all fermented, warm up and filter away the whey.

Then go on to other kinds of cheese when you feel ready. Freeze cheese rather than milk; frozen and thawed milk can give watery cheese. GOOS LUCK! And do keep us informed how things advance!


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

@Trollmor Thank you for the tips! 
Yes, I am considering using an overturned water trough, .5m /18" as a base, with some wood on top. 
I also appreciate your comments from another thread about a milk room construction where you mentioned that the stand should allow the doe to turn around to walk down the step or ramp when finished. Good things to know when I plan!

@GoofyGoat Oh they were videos! Do you maybe just have the link? No need to scramble the house to find notes... but I sure appreciate the thought.


----------



## J4Julz (Mar 3, 2020)

PS: The doelings were up and bouncing for breakfast, everyone seems content. Happy goats! 
Now just one more to kid...


----------



## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Here, try these:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=blue+cactus+dairy+goats+cheese


----------



## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

J4Julz said:


> ... the stand should allow the doe to turn around to walk down the step or ramp when finished.


And your working position must also be good. I had a hole for my legs in my first stand, and sat down milking. Next stand was made for me standing up, and still a hole in front of the hind hoofs of the goat, to enable me to put the pail down there, on a shelf. No more kicked-out bowls! 

_lactic bacteria_ is the word I looked for. Only look out for _milk mold_, which shows as a white surface on the milk.


----------

