# goat urinary calculi help



## clr1216 (Dec 8, 2014)

I am looking for information from anyone who has had a goat that has had urinary calculi.
We have a 60lb pygmy goat. He got into some feed on Thursday 6/22 and that Friday we noticed some signs of bloating. I didn't see him urinating at all. After doing oil, pepto bismol, baking soda, and nothing worked, we took him to the vet. He clipped him to see if he could urinate and was able to get a couple of stones out. He was dripping blood and urine so he gave him penicillin and told me to start ammonium chloride drenching. When we got him home, the blood dripping stopped and we still hadn't seen him urinate. All of this has been a week and two days with not being able to urinate except the few drips of blood at the vet. The vet was going to put him down after he looked to be getting worse, but he started to urinate yesterday afternoon. We were so excited. He has been urinating all day today at a full stream. He had a little blood in his urine yesterday, but it looks clear now. He spent most of the day at the water which is totally understandable! He wasn't drinking water at all for that entire week except what I gave him in the drenching, so I am guessing he may have been dehydrated. I was afraid to force him to drink water since he couldn't urinate. I felt bad enough drenching him with it every day. I was just wondering how long till he is back to normal. He stays with the pack now, where he was staying alone in a corner before, but he lays down and sleeps all day. He hasn't eaten much today. I am still giving him the ammonium chloride drench and I just gave him some nutri drench to see if that would give him some energy. He hates anything he would normally love to eat. I am just wondering if this is normal or if there is something else I should be doing. I would hate for him to come this far, after he almost lost his life, for us only to lose him to something else. I am still waiting on a call back from my vet but was hoping someone out there who has been through this could give me any more advice.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Most boys dont survive after getting blocked up. Getting into the feed that one day didnt cause the stones. That might of been the catalyst that pushed em into place. If you have been feeding him grain over a period of time, that would cause the stones. The ammonium chloride is something you will need to give him for the rest of his life. Drenching usually lasts a 5-7 days. Then you can do it once a week for awhile then once every 2-4 weeks. If you want, you can sprinkle the dose over a hand full of dampened grain or preferably alfalfa pellets instead of drenching.


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## catharina (Mar 17, 2016)

Did the vet say what the stones were made of? There is dietary advice regarding preventing stones; there have been many discussions of that here. What do you feed him?

I'm glad he got better after all that time & I hope he stays well! Some folks have 2 buckets of water, one with some apple cider vinegar added, to encourage the goats to drink more.


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## clr1216 (Dec 8, 2014)

TDG-Farms said:


> Most boys dont survive after getting blocked up. Getting into the feed that one day didnt cause the stones. That might of been the catalyst that pushed em into place. If you have been feeding him grain over a period of time, that would cause the stones. The ammonium chloride is something you will need to give him for the rest of his life. Drenching usually lasts a 5-7 days. Then you can do it once a week for awhile then once every 2-4 weeks. If you want, you can sprinkle the dose over a hand full of dampened grain or preferably alfalfa pellets instead of drenching.


Oh wow. I didn't know that. I have been giving him grain as a supplement with hay his whole life. My vet told me to give the ammonium chloride for a month. I have taken all my goats off grain after this. The vet told me to just supplement them with hay when there is not enough forage. I will incorporate the ammonium chloride into his diet from now on. Thank you for responding!


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

What kind of hay are you feeding him? If he's a wether, or even if he's a buck, he should be getting grass hay and that's about it. Alfalfa usually makes UC much more likely to happen, and he'll probably just be fat on it because it's so high in protein. For the same reasons as above, he does not need grain. 

However, with whatever you feed, the most important thing to remember is to keep the calcium to phosphorus ratio in his diet at 2-3:1 Imbalances are what cause UC. I like to boost phosphorus when I have to feed Alfalfa hay, by giving a handful of BOSS to the boys each day.


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## clr1216 (Dec 8, 2014)

He gets coastal hay. I have stopped the grain. My vet said I didn't need it anyway. I will look at the BOSS. Thank you.


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## clr1216 (Dec 8, 2014)

catharina said:


> Did the vet say what the stones were made of? There is dietary advice regarding preventing stones; there have been many discussions of that here. What do you feed him?
> 
> I'm glad he got better after all that time & I hope he stays well! Some folks have 2 buckets of water, one with some apple cider vinegar added, to encourage the goats to drink more.


I hope he stays well too. The vet didn't say what the stones were made of but he said it was from the grain probably. The stones were so small. When he showed me the ones he got out, they looked like a tiny piece of crystallized salt . I was amazed. Poor thing. I feel so bad for him. He is urinating great now, just still looks depressed. Not his happy self. I hope he pulls through.


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## Boer goat27 (Jun 30, 2017)

we have show goats and at least two a year come down with urinary calculi. We have found that going to the local feed mill and getting ammonium chloride and adding it to the water helps prevent it or make recovery easier on the little guys. Apple cider vinegar helps to. We have had to go as far as using a cathedra to drain and flush the bladder. anther thing you need to be concerned with is to watch that he doesn't come down with pneumonia from the stress. hope your little guy makes a full recovery with no further problem.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

BOSS is high in phosphorus. Most UC problems are the result of a high phosphorus diet. Most grass hays are higher in phosphorus. You need to be extremely careful with how much you give of BOSS. I bet he needs more calcium in his diet which alfalfa provides.


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## clr1216 (Dec 8, 2014)

Boer goat27 said:


> we have show goats and at least two a year come down with urinary calculi. We have found that going to the local feed mill and getting ammonium chloride and adding it to the water helps prevent it or make recovery easier on the little guys. Apple cider vinegar helps to. We have had to go as far as using a cathedra to drain and flush the bladder. anther thing you need to be concerned with is to watch that he doesn't come down with pneumonia from the stress. hope your little guy makes a full recovery with no further problem.


Thank you. Can you tell me how long it takes for them to get back to their normal behavior after they start urinating on their own again? My little guy is still acting depressed and not eating much. I am wondering if it takes a few days or should I be worried something else is going on. His temp is normal (102) so I don't think he has an infection or anything.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would also be giving him daily probiotics.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Grass hay is mostly phosphorus, he needs something high in calcium to balance that out to a 2:1 -3:1 calcium/phosphorus ratio. The majority of UC cases is caused by a high phosphorus level, it's extremely rare for it to be high calcium that causes it. That was the old way of thinking, that went out several decades ago.


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## Boer goat27 (Jun 30, 2017)

clr1216 said:


> Thank you. Can you tell me how long it takes for them to get back to their normal behavior after they start urinating on their own again? My little guy is still acting depressed and not eating much. I am wondering if it takes a few days or should I be worried something else is going on. His temp is normal (102) so I don't think he has an infection or anything.


on average I have seen it take two to three days but they are just like us everyone is different and heals at different rates. for them it is the same as us passing a kidney stone.but sounds like he is making a good recover just make sure he plenty of water keep his bucket full so you can tell how much he is drinking and if it slows down drastically is a good sign of relapse


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ranger1 said:


> What kind of hay are you feeding him? If he's a wether, or even if he's a buck, he should be getting grass hay and that's about it. Alfalfa usually makes UC much more likely to happen, and he'll probably just be fat on it because it's so high in protein. For the same reasons as above, he does not need grain.
> 
> However, with whatever you feed, the most important thing to remember is to keep the calcium to phosphorus ratio in his diet at 2-3:1 Imbalances are what cause UC. I like to boost phosphorus when I have to feed Alfalfa hay, by giving a handful of BOSS to the boys each day.


Actually, the though behind alfalfa being a urinary stone cause is incorrect. Most feeds and grasses are higher in phosphorus. Alfalfa is one of the few common feeds that is higher in calcium. But the imbalance is only like 4 to 1. This allows you some leeway in supplementing other feeds with it. But recently a study was done by the university of purdue that showed alfalfa is actually beneficial in fighting urinary stones in wethered goats. Here is a link to that study. Should have this put up as a sticky. http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/SP/MG/Documents/SLIDES/Urinary calculi.pdf


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

I've posted our experience with UC on here at least once. 

If you look us up our story is on here. I don't agree with what all are saying here. I feed a pretty balanced hay. I buy only tested hay so I do know what my wethers are getting.

Clean fresh water is really part of the picture. My vet surgeon said that because my wether who got UC is a heavy water drinker that probably helped him not get stopped up.

But he had lots of stones. They were NOT phosphorus stones. They were calcium stones. I don't feed grain. The doctors don't know why he keeps getting stones. I'm taking him down in October to have a ct scan again. They are way cheap to have done at our univ large animal vet hospital. So he's going in for a recheck.

But my other wether (both boers) isn't getting stones. They eat the same.

They have two things that are different.

1. The one who isn't getting stones is a percentage boer. The one who is getting stones is full blood boer.

2. They were castrated at different times. The boy that got stones was castrated early. The one who isn't getting stones was castrated around
4-5 mo!

What I'm feeding is exactly what vet wants me to feed. And he still got stones last yr.

He hates AC.
I don't give him AC because he grinds teeth like it hurts him.

So we keep checking him st the university when needed now.

The surgeon who does many UC surgeries per month, said to never give alfalfa or grain. I'm not doing that.

My other wether has never had stones.

We feed orchard grass hay that's tested. As balanced as possible. 

Hopefully this helps give you some info from our experience.

Tami


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Buck Naked Boers said:


> I've posted our experience with UC on here at least once.
> 
> If you look us up our story is on here. I don't agree with what all are saying here. I feed a pretty balanced hay. I buy only tested hay so I do know what my wethers are getting.
> 
> ...


There are still a lot of vets and people who think that alfalfa is a common cause, but its so not. At a 4to1 cal/phos ratio, the extra calcium is beneficial in preventing stones. Now there are more then one kind of stone and some goats can just simply be more prone to them because their body deals with phosphorus poorly. The best advice I can give is to take everyones suggestions in stride and come up with a plan that works for you. I have fed a dairy quality alfalfa for 20 plus years to all my goats. Wethers included and non have every so much as had a hint of a stone. As for the AC, my packer wouldnt take it any other way then to sprinkle it on a small amount of damp grain. I would run my hands under water and toss the grain a few times. Just enough to get it wet enough for the ammonium chloride to stick to. I gave him 1 1/2 table spoons this way once every 2-4 weeks. Even though I never had a problem with alfalfa, its always better to prevent then to treat. I posted above a link to the university of purdue study on stones but will do so here again as its a must read. http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/SP/MG/Documents/SLIDES/Urinary calculi.pdf

As for castration. Yes, that has a significant effect on wethers getting UC. The longer you can wait the better. I tell all my buyers to wait at least till they are 5 months old. Its about this time they start to peeing on themselves and getting kinda bucky. But if you can wait longer, great! From 3-5 months of age you can get as much as 10% extra growth in their urinary tract. The huge infusion of testosterone that bucks come into at about 3 months old, really help in that development.


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## Boer goat27 (Jun 30, 2017)

Buck Naked Boers said:


> I've posted our experience with UC on here at least once.
> 
> If you look us up our story is on here. I don't agree with what all are saying here. I feed a pretty balanced hay. I buy only tested hay so I do know what my wethers are getting.
> 
> ...


I was wondering about all the more calcium everyone is talking about on this thread because all our goats that have had uc have been calcium stones . our vet tells us there is no true cause for them it could be anything from a side effect of being banded, to feed to our water. the best answer is they are like kidney stones in people so get them and others never will.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

How does the vet figure out they have calcium stones and not phosphorous?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The vet doesn't and neither does the university. Almost all stones are coated in calcium. It costs about $150 to send them to a diagnostic lab. Hardly anyone ever does this. What they have is just a guess.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Well there ya go. Thanks goat hiker.



Buck Naked Boers said:


> .. I feed a pretty balanced hay. I buy only tested hay so I do know what my wethers are getting. ..


What kind of hay do you feed?


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## Boer goat27 (Jun 30, 2017)

goathiker said:


> The vet doesn't and neither does the university. Almost all stones are coated in calcium. It costs about $150 to send them to a diagnostic lab. Hardly anyone ever does this. What they have is just a guess.


The vet knows they are calcium because at the university that does the nacropsy for us to find out why the goat died. started testing because of the large number of deaths in our county from it. And because of that we have been able to trace the problem down to our county water and have had to put in filtration system.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks for the comments everyone.

We feed orchard grass. It's not difficult to find quality tested orchard grass. Ask around. The people who are in hay as a business and sell several different fields of it often will do testing on their hay. Cheap hay is often junk. And very off in the ratios we are looking for. But also the flip side, sometimes beautiful hay is wayyy too rich. I had some hay tested one year and it was sooo rich my vet said it was close to alfalfa in its ratios. So that was too rich for my animals. Once you find a good hay and good hay provider....stick with them. It's worked for us.

Dave our stones were completely all calcium. So I'm not going to feed more calcium. My other wether isn't getting then so I am pretty sure I'm feeding good for my boys anyway. I'm going to talk again to the drs tho about this at some point.

Actually yes the university absolutely did know what our stones have been every time! There is a lab that specislizes in analyzing stones. https://www.vetmed.umn.edu/centers-programs/minnesota-urolith-center

They look at the stone and put it through testing. My wethers stones were tested. The univ vets see bucks and wethers several times every week. My vet surgeon has been doing this for 30 yrs I think he told me.

For us, the protocol we feed is working. My wether that's gotten stones could be caused by how young he was wethered or for some other strange reason.

I do think that I need to get some AC down him. I had been trying biochlor. But it wouldn't keep his urine ph where it should be. I tested his urine. 
I'm wondering if the AC would do the same thing. Do you test your boys urine Dave? Just curious if their bodies adjust to the AC like biochlor. And how much AC do you feed him and how often??

I know everyone has their protocols that work for them. So I don't expect people to do what we do. I think you have to figure out what wks for your wethers or bucks.

I wish you the best with yr wether. If I had a choice (love both my wethers!) I wouldn't have ever gotten wethers. When they are gone someday I won't replace with more wethers. My girls are so much easier.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Boergoat27,
Can you share what state yr in? Yes sounds like our situation. But I did have water tested and all is good. It's very frustrating. But calcium is the culprit in our case. Not phosphorus. Although many stones tend to be phosphorus. 

Tami


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## Boer goat27 (Jun 30, 2017)

Buck Naked Boers said:


> Boergoat27,
> Can you share what state yr in? Yes sounds like our situation. But I did have water tested and all is good. It's very frustrating. But calcium is the culprit in our case. Not phosphorus. Although many stones tend to be phosphorus.
> 
> Tami


We are in western ky i only give the ammonium when i clean out water buckets 2 tsp to 5 gallons and a friend tolds about the apple cider vinegar because it makes them pee more frequently so they stay flushed and that is 1/2 cup per 5 gallons and also helps with keeping the flys away in the barn. The high calcium in the water was easy to find because of the amount in the screens on the faucets


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

It really just comes down to a miss understanding of information. A great many of vets and scholars still try to associate human kidney stones with goat urinary calculi. Even the name is misleading at first glance. And with goats being what seems to be on the bottom of the list for livestock, we goat owners (which is why this forum is so damn important) are left to take bits and pieces of information, teach and learn that information, test it, tweek it and hopefully gain more insight in the goat husbandry. As a pack goat breeder, urinary calculi is an important issue for me. And I always have an eye and ear open to any information regarding it. What I personally have learned is that Alfalfa, although imbalanced at 4 to 1 calcium / phosphorous, is actually good / ok for wethers. Especially younger growing ones. It gives them the extra calcium and protein they need to grow big and strong. But it can also make them fat. So if you have a little mini wether that is just going to be a pet, were size doesnt really matter, then you may not even need to bother with alfalfa or switch over to a grass hay later. Grass hay is always going be safer cause its closer to the 2 to 1 ideal ratio. Pelleted grain is a wether killer. Pretty much ever urinary calculi horror store I have heard or read about is / was directly linked to grain. On the flip side of that, I have never heard of a case of UC related to alfalfa. Alfalfa pellets are a great alternative to great. But I dont have any idea if being pelleted changes the beneficial effects of it (as noted in that purdue study) and or if it changes the ratio. Manufactures dont test the ratio and just assume it stays roughly the same. And because it is pelleted, you dont really know what kind of quality the alfalfa was before it was processed. Most bags say 16% protein. Thats kinda low on the protein scale for alfalfa. Which is kinda good for feeding to wethers. They dont really need the hotter 20%-24% protein levels of dairy quality alfalfa that say a milking doe would need.

Standard treatment of ammonium chloride: 1 1/2 tsp per day dissolved in either water or sprinkled over a damp feed, for 7-10 days. This is if you believe your goat is already suffering from a blockage OR you dont really know where that animal may stand. Keep in mind that AC is highly acidic. I have tasted it and to me it seem to be about the same as the citric acid I used to make cheese.

Standard prevention of ammonium chloride: 3 lbs added to a 50 lbs bag of loose mineral. As long as the goat is eating this regularly, this and a good balanced diet should be enough to prevent urinary stones. But without knowing for sure (if you have more then one goat eating the mineral mix) if the goat is getting enough AC, I also like to do a single day treatment dose of 1 1/2 tsp on a damp feed once every 2-4 weeks depending upon loose mineral and diet intake.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I think the important thing with alfalfa pellets is to make sure there are no binders and they are all natural sun cured alfalfa. 
I mix mine three to one with beet pulp if they need some weight.

All of this is again ignoring the schism between breeds. African and Swiss/French/ Spanish goats came from different ancestors and evolved in totally different environments. 
Their uses have created different circumstances. Dairy breeders don't breed bucks with an history of UC. Meat breeders blow a gasket if you even suggest they should not use their plugged up $1200 buck.

Sent from my LGL34C using Goat Forum mobile app


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Dave thank you for yr post. And the info on how you give AC. So I've forgotten. Do you breed boers? I'm guessing not since yr a pack goat breeder. The African breeds (we have boers)tend to be very slanted towards getting UC. I agree completely what you said about grain and boys. I know people feed alfalfa to their boys. All I know is my wether for sure is getting calcium stones. As stated above, they are testing them at the goat urolith lab in Minnesota. So there is no confusion about stone diagnosis. It's for sure calcium stones. 

Why he's throwing them we don't know. He's got a great diet. All he eats is tested pretty balanced hay and pasture. Minerals. Fresh water twice a day. The drs don't know why he throws them. We've even tested our water because I'd wondered about it. But it's fine. 

They used to love my mineral but again I don't see them using it much. Seems to be that way with minerals. Love them when they are "new". Lol. 

And giving him AC on wet/damp grain sounds good but not sure. How much grain do you moisten and put it on?
So you do that only once every 2-4 wks? And that keep them stone free? That's not that often to give it! I had thought you were supposed to give it every other wk? 

Boergoat27 that's interesting what you do. My wether hates AC so much I don't think he'd drink water with AC in it so I'd hesitate to put it in their water. He's a big water drinker. Loves to drink out of the hose when I'm out watering. Lol. 

Jill Yes I think there is something to the different breeds. Docs will tell you they see Nigerians and boers a lot more with UC. There has to be something to that and the connection to UC and African breeds. 

I agree Dave, this forum is pretty important. Most vets know very little about goats but few will admit it. Probably because of the almighty dollar and it's importance to them vs the importance of the goats life/care. 

There are some good vets out there tho. Just have to look and find them. 

Tami


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Good point you guys. As strictly a dairy breeder, all my ideas and information on feeding goats could be way off or completely wrong when it comes to boers. I have never raised any personally.

If you have a good feeding program in place, then it really shouldnt matter how much grain you use to dampen and give him AC. Spaced so far apart, even if you did it once a week, I dont see how that could be enough to be concerned with. But i just use one of those normal scoop sized.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks Dave for that info. I had thought to acidify their urine that you had to give it for several days in a row. So that's interesting what you do and what wks for you!!

I've gotta take weight off my wethers too. So need to chat with vets and get some ideas how to do that. I'm just feeding hay and pasture and brush and garden stuff occasionally. Not high calories. 

So thankful for this forum. It's been so helpful to be able to chat with you guys. 

Tami


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Interesting topic. UC scares me. I was top dressing my son's bucks feed with it when we were feeding him a goat pellet and a sweet mix (sticks to the molasses). But we switched to a corn oil based show mix our feed store makes for us, but it's very dry and the bucks are super picky and won't eat the 'dust' from the feed! I'm going to let the feed store know in case they can fix that. But with the boys being shown and needing to be on full feed, I'm trying to figure out how I can make sure they get a little more AC and know they are actually getting it and not wasting it.

Can I drench it? I've heard a teaspoon every other week, but I worry that it burns? Wondering if I could add in some powdered probios or something to help it go down easier. 
We usually don't keep bucks. We get a young one in the spring, my son shows it, breeds with it, then sells it. So we've had our current buck almost a year and want to most likely keep him another year. Thanks for any suggestions!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I seem to recall, Tammy, that when you put in your pasture you put down a huge amount of lime. Western Oregon soils are naturally acid and I'd imagine the tested hay has been limed to. 
Aglime is pure calcium carbonate... One reason why I buy Eastern Oregon hay.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Hoosier I wouldn't drench it. Yes it burns. One reason my wether moans about it. I used to drench it. He hates the stuff. So I will try another option. 

Jill yes we had to lime. Our soil was so acidic we couldn't grow grass. All that grew basically was dandelions and weeds. Lol. 

We've been testing our soils in the pastures and this year put down exactly what the soil lacked. It needed some lime. But also other nutrients/fertilizer. We will test again in the fall. The pasture is growing well now thankfully. 

Christmas trees had been grown by previous owners who had a lease on the land with a grower. It was awful soil when we got here. We've come a long way! Thankful for that!

So no the lime didn't cause his stones. We are working towards bettering the soil here. But making great strides in the right direction I believe. 

Tami


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

I believe the hay I just bought is eastern Oregon hay. But my hay provider who grows hay locally also has good numbers on his tested hay. I look at the ratios on the hay test itself. 

Tami


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I was just thinking you might want to snip some handfuls of grass to dry and test. Then you could see what your plants are pulling from the ground. 
Tomorrow I'll post pix of my pastures and seed bank plants. You'll likely be appalled lol.


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## Boer goat27 (Jun 30, 2017)

HoosierShadow said:


> Interesting topic. UC scares me. I was top dressing my son's bucks feed with it when we were feeding him a goat pellet and a sweet mix (sticks to the molasses). But we switched to a corn oil based show mix our feed store makes for us, but it's very dry and the bucks are super picky and won't eat the 'dust' from the feed! I'm going to let the feed store know in case they can fix that. But with the boys being shown and needing to be on full feed, I'm trying to figure out how I can make sure they get a little more AC and know they are actually getting it and not wasting it.
> 
> Can I drench it? I've heard a teaspoon every other week, but I worry that it burns? Wondering if I could add in some powdered probios or something to help it go down easier.
> We usually don't keep bucks. We get a young one in the spring, my son shows it, breeds with it, then sells it. So we've had our current buck almost a year and want to most likely keep him another year. Thanks for any suggestions!


If you top dress you can add a little vegetable oil to it and your feed so that it sticks to the grain and they will eat it that way.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, extremely good advice here by all. :cow:


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Testing pasture is supposedly best done in the spring. I didn't do it so might need to wait til next spring. 

Difficult to find a good place to test as well. I am not sure my pasture has any issues. 

Soil test should tell us more this fall when we test.


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## TCOLVIN (Sep 22, 2014)

TDG-Farms said:


> Most boys dont survive after getting blocked up. Getting into the feed that one day didnt cause the stones. That might of been the catalyst that pushed em into place. If you have been feeding him grain over a period of time, that would cause the stones. The ammonium chloride is something you will need to give him for the rest of his life. Drenching usually lasts a 5-7 days. Then you can do it once a week for awhile then once every 2-4 weeks. If you want, you can sprinkle the dose over a hand full of dampened grain or preferably alfalfa pellets instead of drenching.


I have been feeding A/C every day for 2 years now. I feed Alfalfa Pellets (about 2 tomatoes cans size) of Pellets mixed with beet pulp (1 can) to 2 wethers. I sprinkle about 2-3 table spoon of A/C on top and shake up a couple or three times then sprinkle a little karo syrup mix over it and re-shake. divide between the two and they eat it up. Most of the time they eat all of it but some times only half. Am I giving too much A/C ? should I only do it weekly? can they get too much? They were banded at 4 weeks, both of them, one is a Saanen the other a Mixture.


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## artzkat (Oct 22, 2007)

You are getting a lot of good advice. I had wethers for years and fed grain, no problem. BUT they were neutered at 3 months...Vet would not do it before the ureter was large enough that small grit and stones could pass. In any event, I fed them 1 tsp of Ammonium chloride once a week. I found that sprinkling it on apple slices worked very well ...or mixing it in with the a dose of probiotics (about 20cc of the dry probios mixed with water) drench (or cranberry juice) worked well. Plain grass hay is best..but I would avoid a lot of sunflower seeds as they are high in phosophorus. Rolled oats are a good little treat as are apples, watermelon, strawberries. Anything that is juicy and keeps the fellows hydrated is good.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

TCOLVIN said:


> I have been feeding A/C every day for 2 years now. I feed Alfalfa Pellets (about 2 tomatoes cans size) of Pellets mixed with beet pulp (1 can) to 2 wethers. I sprinkle about 2-3 table spoon of A/C on top and shake up a couple or three times then sprinkle a little karo syrup mix over it and re-shake. divide between the two and they eat it up. Most of the time they eat all of it but some times only half. Am I giving too much A/C ? should I only do it weekly? can they get too much? They were banded at 4 weeks, both of them, one is a Saanen the other a Mixture.


I dont know if there is a too much with AC. It sure sounds like a lot and well beyond what is suggested on labels. Specially if 3 lbs per 50 lbs of loose mineral is the suggested mix. I also down know if their body has gotten used to so much and if you reduce it to quickly if it would cause issues. I think if I were you, Id contact the manufacture and pick their brain a bit. But I dont see why you couldnt slowly reduce down to even just 1 spoon a day over their feed. But AC is a safety net. If its working and you feel safe, then maybe you dont need to change. If you are looking to reduce to save some money, or are now worried about any ill effects so much could cause, again, call the manufacture and see what they have to say.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

TDG: If you have to feed a buck grain for whatever reason, what do you do to balance things out? Just the AC?


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## Brigabart (Oct 31, 2014)

We have a goat who has been blocked twice. The first time he had his tip cut off, we took him off grain, baking soda, and BOSS, gave him 2cc vitamin C twice a day for five days. A month later he was having issues again. Vet put him on vitamin C permanently - 5 days of injectable, and now he gets 3-4 500mg chewable vitamin C twice a day. No problems in the last 6 months. Both times he broke into the chicken grain and set himself off. We are super careful, but if he gets a mouthful, we give him 5 vit C tabs twice a day for a couple of days and it does the trick. 

So right now he gets grass hay, forage, then in the morning he gets 1/2 cup timothy pellets plus 3 vit C pills, and evening gets 1/2 cup timothy pellets plus 3 vit C pills, 1/4 tsp ammonium chloride, 1/2 tsp kelp. Free access to manna pro goat minerals and fresh water.


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## artzkat (Oct 22, 2007)

The calcium phosphorus ratio should be maintained *between 1:1 and 2:1*, preferably 1.2-1.5:1 in goats because of their predisposition for urinary calculi.
*Nutritional Requirements of Goats - Management and Nutrition - Merck ...*

www.merckvetmanual.com/management-and...goats/nutritional-requirements-of-goats


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That Merck manual info is very old. Dr David Pugh left Auburn years ago (probably at least 10 years ago) and went to work for a pharmaceutical company. Unfortunately it doesn't give the year that info was published.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Brigabart, where do you get injectable vitamin c from?


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## TCOLVIN (Sep 22, 2014)

TDG-Farms said:


> I dont know if there is a too much with AC. It sure sounds like a lot and well beyond what is suggested on labels. Specially if 3 lbs per 50 lbs of loose mineral is the suggested mix. I also down know if their body has gotten used to so much and if you reduce it to quickly if it would cause issues. I think if I were you, Id contact the manufacture and pick their brain a bit. But I dont see why you couldnt slowly reduce down to even just 1 spoon a day over their feed. But AC is a safety net. If its working and you feel safe, then maybe you dont need to change. If you are looking to reduce to save some money, or are now worried about any ill effects so much could cause, again, call the manufacture and see what they have to say.


Thanks, I 'll look in to this.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ranger1 said:


> TDG: If you have to feed a buck grain for whatever reason, what do you do to balance things out? Just the AC?


The only time Id give a buck any kind of grain is when I am giving him some AC. And we are only taking maybe a cup or two of grain once ever 2-4 weeks. But because I feed alfalfa to all my animals, that does actually open up enough room to do treats and training with grain if I wanted to. Which I had to do with my first pack goat. He hated every single treat I offered to him cept grain.


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