# Pondering my thoughts...



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I will be the first to admit, I am lousy at trying to figure out a good feeding program for 4-H goats. I think last year we started to really prep them too late.

We're hoping that they can use a percentage doe from whatever our girls give in 1 1/2-3 1/2 weeks. No guarantee they'll have a doeling, no guarantee they'll be okay enough. But as long as they aren't horrible the kids can use them <the ones we had last year weren't show material but they still did okay>.

We also plan to buy 2 nice fullblood boer does that may be as young as being born now and picking up in April when they are weaned.

Our issue is...we can never seem to get them to fill out, they always had a sunken in look, no matter how much we fed them. 
We did not feed alfalfa hay all the time, but we did feed grain/BOSS/Calf Manna <or Animax which is the same thing>.

I'm not sure where we are going wrong. Other people feed the same kind of grain we feed and their goats are fine <15% sweet medicated>.

I do plan on getting the best alfalfa hay I can afford & find when the babies start eating hay so I can put it in a creep feeder. 
And just thinking ahead, I plan on keeping the fullblood does if they are just weaned away from the herd. I'll most likely set up a big pen for them in our back yard - so they don't get bullied, and so they have access to alfalfa hay and grain. Unless the breeder can recommend what she is feeding, then I was thinking giving free choice grain w/boss/calf manna and possibly alfalfa pellets depending on the quality of alfalfa hay I am able to get.

The percentage girls I'd leave on their mamas as long as I can, and again creep feed with the other kids our does would have.

Anyway any thoughts on this? I am a stay at home mom and try to do this on the bit of income I do get, so it doesnt take so much out of my husband. I can't afford to buy the top quality show feeds, etc. I know not all the kids who show in 4-H use top quality stuff. If we can get away with just adding in BOSS/Calf Manna/ and possibly alfalfa pellets giving it 24/7, plus good alfalfa hay and some grass hay mix, I am hoping that will be good enough.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

I see this in my area alot--I'll tell you what the secret is--deworming them. 

I would put more $$ in fecals and proper deworming than all the extra's 

Our wether gets 17% protein grain and some sunflower seeds. I did give him calf manna but he is "Portly" :laugh: and the FFA teacher advised me to not give him the calf manna-too many calories for a wether. 

If they are properly dewormed then you won't have to feed as much and the costs will be way less.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I would also up the protein percent if possible. It really helps them grow. My kids are on 18% right now and then I might switch them down to 16% but then again I may not. I agree make sure the are de wormed as that can cause them not to grow which I know you know. I found out last year we were not feeding enough. Our does did alright but just were not big enough. I was talking to some people about my problem and we were feeding the same feed with the same worm schedule but she was feeding double what I was. Right now the kids are on the 18% full feed in the creep area. I have still not seen Cindy or Storm go in there on their own to eat but the other 5 do and they are the biggest ones so I know it is helping. I would keep the girls on the dams for up to 12 weeks but after that I would feel bad for the dams. I think that would take alot out of them but I guess if they can handle it then more power to them. I have my 2 bottle kids in with everyone else and after a few days everyone calms down and stops chasing them around, I feel as long as you have an area that only the kids can get to they should be ok with the rest of the herd it will also help them learn from the dams how to graze. It sounds like something that comes naturally but I noticed last year it took extra long with Cashmere and I think it was because she didn't have a mom to show her what to eat. But those are just what I have found that works for us. I plan on if possible separating the boys from the girls this year and feeding them different so that I can focus on the boys growing more muscle and the girls getting larger framed and more mature looking to be good show does.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks, I definitely agree about worming. It is something that weighs heavy on my mind, but I didn't have time to post about it in my intial post.
We always deal with the same worm -it's similar to a strongyle,but the vet said it's not grouped into any particular species. However, it's treated the same way a strongyle is treated.
I had fecals in the summer with the goats I was concerned about and the vet wasn't worried, but told us to worm if we wanted, so we did.
I know goats will always have some worms in them since they are ruminent/browsers, but geez, this worming stuff is what really frustrates us the most.
So I want to stay on top of it for sure. I need to look into keeping a couple of really good wormers on hand, but I'll save that for another topic, as I have some questions about some wormers I saw at TSC.

Anyway, Our goats have an acre of woods they can browse, and I know that has to be a breeding ground for worms  We're going to work on thinning the woods out considerably - cutting down anything that isn't remotely mature or anything that would fall over the fence, etc. Open it up so we can clean up all the under brush, thorns, etc. and hopefully next year we can have grass growing. 
I don't want the 4-H goats going back there, especially fullbloods. They just don't seem hardy in our area at all. We have had plenty of goats here and so far the only ones that I'm not impressed with has been the fullbloods. 
So I told my husband absolutely no woods for them. That's one reason if we get fullblood kids, they stay in the back yard. I think I've convinced him enough with this, that we should fence in our front yard for them, or make a big moveable pen out of panels or a dog kennel for them. I'd want to quarantine anyway, and give the kids time to grow before I introduce them to queen of mean <SNow White LOL>. We do have a large front yard, plenty big for 2-3 does.
. 
The kids our does have can stay with them, but I'll be encouraging them to stay in the grassy area and have plenty of hay out at all times so they don't have to browse in the woods if they don't want to. 
Maybe I am just overworrying, and with regular worming with GOOD wormer and ACCURATE weights? I just don't want worms holding them back 
I hear there are a lot of people dealing with worms more this time of year than normal thanks to the mild winter.

I really can't find a better protein goat feed around here, I looked last year. But I wondered if I could get a decent horse feed to mix with their feed? I've heard of people doing this before - but not offering it to their bucks/wethers. 
Horse feeds also contain a lot of copper...
Plus adding in the animax and BOSS, alfalfa pellets and giving alfalfa hay, surely that would bring up the protein levels. Of course I don't know how big the goats will be when we get them, etc. so I wouldn't know how much to feed. I guess I am mostly confused on how much each goat should get of each item when it comes to this stuff. 
I told my husband if we are going to invest in a couple of nice does for the kids, then he HAS to be willing to help me get what they need to stay nice for the fairs this summer. The kids would LOVE a chance to go to the state fair, so that's something in the back of my mind too.

it's just been a really crazy year, and I am worried about anything and everything that could possibly go wrong. I'm sure our buck is ruined because of Goat polio/worms, I don't want to have any more issues. It's depressing when we love them so much and want the best for them.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

I know what you mean about it being hard sometimes-I worry alot about ours too. You are right worms are a constant--I check fecals all the time (easy for me because I work at a vet hosp.) and I see that mine are subject to baberpoles. I deworm whenver I see the eggs and just try to stay on top of it--it is a constant battle and I know the more goats we get the more of a battle it will be. I do use diatomaceous earth in our buck pen-I just sprinkle some whenever I clean it out. I use it for the bucks since they are mostly confined to their pens 24/7. 

You might want to check what worms are in your area but I found for use using ivermectin and then a form of oxibendazole works good for us. 

I have heard you can call an county extension agent or the office in your area and learn ALOT about what is indigineous in your area (as far as parasites) and mineral levels in the soil ect. I have not called the office in my area-but this might be something you could do to help get a plan in effect. 

I have a "plan" for now but I see that as I grow I am going to have to keep re-inventing the wheel as I go :laugh: 

re feed---my boys get about 2lbs of show grain a day (17%) and our does get ALOT less--they share but I would say they get less than 1lb a day and they still could stand to eat less. I bet when you get your babies you can feed them to a point that you are comfortable with and see how they do-if they get a bit heavy lighten up on the grain. You will get it right as you go along :thumb: especially as dedicated as you are!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks BBB I appreciate it  My does could use the weight, what seemed to really screw things up was when the feed store changed feed companies without saying anything one week, and made our buck/some others sick. We had to cut way back, take a doe off of grain for a couple of days, and try to get everyone's systems from being affected too badly with the grain issue. I never ever want to go through that again. This is the same feed store I used to buy the purina show chow from last summer - they are not consistent and will go to another company just to get something in. So needless to say I don't buy grain from them anymore, so now we get it at a reputable feed mill.
I have no other way locally to get show chow, which was only 16%. The people I've talked to that show goats order theirs by pallet load from some other feed stores that aren't nearby. But I don't know these people well enough/have a contact # to see if I could buy some off of them regularly for the 4-H goats.
So I am kinda stuck..LOL That's why I was looking to add things to the grain. I just wasn't sure if adding a little horse grain would hurt them or not. We've added it before and they loved it, but that was when the farm my husband used to work for closed and left a partial bag from the last horse that was on the farm. So he just mixed it in with their feed. 

As for the worms, I should have had the vet write down the worm name, but he basically said the easiest way to define it is very similar to a strongyle. We've never had anything else show up on a fecal. 
We need to put together a plan and stick to it. I totally agree.
Everyone I talk to locally says they worm ever 3 months. Sounds about right for the worm issues in this area. 

Well I am off to bed, way past my bedtime! It's hard not to worry about the brats, and about making sure everything is good to go when we do buy the kids a couple of nice fullblood does.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

It sounds to me like you are about to try and eliminate the best goat feed you have. That underbrush you talk about is what goats are born to eat. Theoretically it is way less likely to have worm eggs on it as the grass you are hoping to encouage. Goats like to eat things that are high off the ground and worm eggs can only get a few inches off the ground. When I first got my goats I turned them on my back pasture that had a lot of black berry bushes, young saplings, brush and weeds as well as some grass. They don't eat the grass. You are on the right track with the worming. I think when you get the right goats, and you are feeding them a modest amount of grain, you will be trying to figure out how to slim them down a little. In other words, genetics play a roll in weight gain as well.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I have to agree on the goats eating the brush....let em eat it! That is their favorite food and what they are meant to eat. Mine LOVE it. And prefer that over grass any day. 

My next question seems kinda stupid, but what the heck is this BOSS you all keep talking about? I've never heard of it. 

A suggestion since you are on a budget. Find a feed place....CO-OP? Feed mill? Not a regular feed store with bagged feed tho. A place that will mix feed for you. Here is the mix I used last year...this is actually a sheep mix, but I used it for everybody. My goats got it and since I don't have a creep feeder I just fed it full feed to all of them so mamas and babies alike had all they wanted.

250 pounds corn
120 pounds oats
60 pounds soybeans roasted halves
60 pounds alfalfa pellets
23 molasses
2 pounds mineral

I think the corn was rolled cause there's a rolling fee of $1.50. then along with mixing and blending, a pallet and a tote bag, the total cost was $116.00 I rounded the numbers, but that's for 500 pounds of feed! My goats did fantastic on this and the does did not get over fat at all. Now obviously, you can customize however you want. But it may be a lot cheaper this way than bagged feed.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

Wow that IS a good deal on all that food! So you go to a mill and tell them the ingredients you want and they mix it all together in a feed? What a cool deal! I wish there was someplace that did that around here-to my knowledge there are none. Is it a mill or a feed store that does it? I have been in all the feed stores in our local area--but I have never checked out a mill, maybe I should? I spend $11 to $12 for 50lbs!

Hooshiershadow--if your worm types are related to a strongyle then the oxibendazole should help. You will of course have to research it a bit but I bet that might put you on the right track. De-worming every 3 months, as a routine, does sound like a bit much to me--with deworming to often the worms can get resistant to the chemical dewormers. Personally I do a "maintenance" deworm every 6 months; but I run fecals first to be sure what it is I am trying to eliminate beforehand. You don't necessarily need to do a fecal on each and every goat--but test a handful and that will give you a glimpse of what everyone has--since they all live together they should have "similar" parasites. 

You know, your goats have always look beautiful to me--I never thought of them as sunken in or skinny at all. I think they are healthy goats. I think maybe you are not giving yourself enough credit :thumb: you already have beautiful; healthy goats :greengrin: I can't wait to see the new fullbloods you add! I bet they will be beautiful as well.

KCCJER-BOSS is black oil sunflower seeds. You can purchase them at feed stores or where stores sell wild bird seed. These seeds are excellent for goats-help improve coat and they are rich in selenium. However, I recently read how many calories are in BOSS :shocked: LOL! No wonder my does look like piggies! Needless to say, I cut way back :laugh: A little bit of BOSS will do ya!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Burns Branch Boers said:


> Wow that IS a good deal on all that food! So you go to a mill and tell them the ingredients you want and they mix it all together in a feed? What a cool deal! I wish there was someplace that did that around here-to my knowledge there are none. Is it a mill or a feed store that does it? I have been in all the feed stores in our local area--but I have never checked out a mill, maybe I should? I spend $11 to $12 for 50lbs!
> !


If you bought 10, 50lb bags of feed, that's 500lbs. It looks like you would be paying $110-$120. Pretty much the same price. Just sayin'.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

lol well I guess you are right! hee hee--I am NO good with math w/out a calculator. It sure "felt" like I was paying more :laugh: :greengrin:


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

BOSS!! Of course! :doh: I use those too. I add a 50 pound bag of that to my 500 pound of mixed feed. Yep, just a feed mill. Much better deal than at a feed store. I actually just have them add enough liquid molasses to hold everything together. The price will vary depending on the price of bulk grain at the time you purchase. I have to go 40 miles to the co-op to get mine so only when the flat pick up is running right can I go...it's been a looooonnng winter. I need to go get more. I'm not using the soybeans in my goat feed, but when we get 4H lambs in again I'll add them. You can make up your mix too. Most mills will have the beet pulp also. I may even go ahead and add some of that this next time after reading up on it. The mill is the one that told me it was only for bulk. Dummies. Thanks to whoever it was that posted the link for me earlier. That will up my price some, but I think it will be worth it.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

THANKS!  Okay for the brush - last night before I went to bed I was trying to research about it, and just couldn't find anything, everything always refers to grass. So if you think the brush isn't the problem, then we'll leave it 
I was reading an interesting article about some strongyle types, and it was really fascinating, that they can appear like hoof rot and get into the blood stream very easy through the feet. Well, we do usually have problems in the spring with hoof rot/hoof scald when it's really wet. In fact, I am really watching feet right now as the ground has stayed wet for what seems like months, we just can't get a dry spell at all, and with mild temps we arent' getting any hard freezes either and when we do it's for a day or two at most.

Would DE be good to put in the main pen & buck pen, how often do you all use it? I'd be willing to try anything within reason to help keep the threat down. 

We buy our feed at a feed mill, we pay $8.00 a bag for 50lbs of goat feed. If we considered doing our own feed mix, the price would have to be cheaper than the goat feed, or my husband wouldn't go for it. But our biggest issue is storing that much grain.
4 50lb bags last us about 3 weeks right now. I know that will be cut down considerably when the 3 girls kid in the coming weeks. 
I really don't mind supplementing or adding something for the 4-H kids. But I won't do it for everyone, unless someone is struggling and needs the added boost. 

BBB - the people around here that I've talked to have said if they go longer than 3 months, they have worm issues. We can get a lot of rain in a year, it varies, but spring and fall and even winter can be really wet here. In 2010 we had a pretty bad drought in the summer/fall. But then last year we had the wettest year ever on record with just under 70 inches of rain. 
So far this seems like a very wet year so far as well.


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## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

well that makes sense if you do have so much rain there--better to be safe than sorry. I wonder if roating the wormers would help since the dewormings will be closer together than I am use to? You could post about your conditions; type of worms and see what the more experienced members suggest. 

I think using the DE in the pens would only help rather than hurt. I only use DE every few weeks and I just sprinkle it around. I bet there are others that use it with "more of a purpose" than I do. I just use it as a precaution. Again as my goat #'s grow I am sure that will change as well. I can get small bags of DE at my feed store for only $4! That is a good deal for me since I don't use a bunch of it at a time. 

That is crazy about the worms entering through the feet! I had never heard of that! Great...now something else to worry about :laugh:


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I know, I told my husband about the article I found and he didn't believe me! I need to find where I read that. It was so late and I was so tired, I forgot to bookmark it!
Yeah, it was CRAZY with the rain last year, it seemed every time we got rain it was 3/4 of an inch to 2-3 inches every time! I really can't remember the ground being completely dry since probably before Christmas? We start to get a few dry days, then it rains again.
Today we actually had .5" of snow, it melted by 11am, and everything was so nasty  It's been real fun trying to keep the pen clean, especially around the barn where we walk. We do have rocks next to the barn that the goats can walk on so they don't walk in the mud or wet hay.

I'll look into getting DE to put down, I know I've seen it at Southern States, and I need to go there tomorrow. 

Now trying to find a couple of kids.... I have the one breeder I contacted who's does are kidding now, but 'just in case' I would like to find someone else we could go to. I'd really like to reserve kids that we can bring home later after our does kid, so I can get a place set up for them. I'm trying to decide if I want to block of the backyard entrance, but not sure how I could keep them off of my deck! I'll probably make a pen out of panels, possibly one I could move around. Oh the fun of trying to plan! My husband tells me I am crazy LOL But I don't want the goats we buy especially if they are young to mix with our herd queen until they are older, she's MEAN, heh.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

We started looking at fullblood kids over the weekend.
OMG, I wasn't going to 'vent' about it, but seriously, I was not pleased  The kids this person offered us were okay, but the mama and both kids were 4 teated, and I didn't care for the mama's teats. They were all 3 offered to us for WAY TOO MUCH $$$. I don't want to think the person was trying to rip me off, but when I asked about teats they were like 'oh I don't know' and we had to catch them to check.
I did like her babies, but the ones we liked were sold or keepers.
The BIGGEST turn off was checking out her bucks...one had CL. I cringed.

Then we left and went to McDonalds and scrubbed overselves in the bathroom! I'd never seen CL before....

Contacted a couple of other breeders, one whom we've met and was nice/had nice goats at one of the fairs, and the other girl won basically every breeding and some of the wether classes at another fair, so fingers crossed!


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