# Breeding siblings??



## Flamey (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok so we are so new to the whole goat breeding/milking thing and we were just wondering if you can breed siblings together?  

Also is there any good web sites for goat cheese/butter making?

Thanks


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## Sylvie (Feb 18, 2013)

For cheese/ butter making: http://fiascofarm.com/dairy/index.htm

If the siblings have very good conformation, milk lines, etc., I guess you could do it. Personally, I wouldn't.

From http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/83-6/alice_g_hall/:

Full sibling breedings are a risky form of inbreeding. It's the closest a person can go in inbreeding. It can work if the sire and dam were the products of outcrosses, and sometimes it can even work if they're more inbred. But if inbreeding problems such as lack of stature, fertility, or productivity are to occur, it would be here.


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## Sylvie (Feb 18, 2013)

Here's some more of the article :
Edit: the diagrams got left out...

So, if a breeder enjoys working with the unknown and unexpected results, he will enjoy outcrossing. If a breeder would prefer a more definite direction, he would rather use linebreeding. If a breeder knows exactly what he wants, has animals that promise to give that, and if he is willing to cull heavily to retain it, inbreeding might pay for him.

Breeders who enjoy linebreeding and inbreeding can “do all their breeding on paper” before they ever match a doe to a buck. Not only are the results somewhat scientific, they are also artistic.

A complete outcross would look something like this-where “A” is the new or proposed kid, B and C are its parents, and the others are grands and great grands:	

The pedigree of an out-crossed animal between two line-bred parents would look a little bit different.

A nicely linebred animal’s pedigree might look like this:	

A half-brother, half-sister inbreeding might resemble this pedigree if parent B also had the same sire as its dam:	

A sire/daughter or dam/son breeding would result in the following pedigree pattern:	

Full sibling breedings are a risky form of inbreeding. It’s the closest a person can go in inbreeding. It can work if the sire and dam were the products of outcrosses, and sometimes it can even work if they’re more inbred. But if inbreeding problems such as lack of stature, fertility, or productivity are to occur, it would be here:	

All these pedigrees are actual pedigrees of purebred animals. The experience of some breeders who have used the “patterns on paper” program indicate that the most successful breedings are the ones in which the pedigrees show triangular patterns. The half-sibling pedigree shows a good triangle. More triangles become apparent as the pedigree is extended to further generations. Straight-line tie-ins don’t seem to be as satisfactory in inbreeding. No matter what kind of breeding program a person decides to follow, it is wise to remember that genes determine potentials of the offspring, but the environment determines how much of that potential is reached. A kid could be bred for outstanding stature and production, but if his environment doesn’t support him properly, his genetic potential will never be reached.


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## Flamey (Mar 28, 2013)

Thanks for all the info


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

I have personal experience with a herd that has been intensively line bred and occasionally inbred for over 50 years by the same owner with one goal: milk production. Depends on what you're after I guess. 
There's a reason why human sibling marriage is illegal in most countries and it's NOT because it's immoral, it's because it's unhealthy. To think that it's not similarly risky with other mammalian species is scientifically unsound and just plain silly.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

elchivito said:


> I have personal experience with a herd that has been intensively line bred and occasionally inbred for over 50 years by the same owner with one goal: milk production. Depends on what you're after I guess.
> There's a reason why human sibling marriage is illegal in most countries and it's NOT because it's immoral, it's because it's unhealthy. To think that it's not similarly risky with other mammalian species is scientifically unsound and just plain silly.


just out of curiousity....what was the result of all the line breeding and inbreeding? any health issues?

breeding siblings is just icky to me...... but that's my personal opinion....


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

nchen7 said:


> just out of curiousity....what was the result of all the line breeding and inbreeding? any health issues?
> 
> breeding siblings is just icky to me...... but that's my personal opinion....


Lots. Congenital arthritis. Touchy guts. Precocious udders. Mysterious failure to thrive, none of it CAE related. Years ago when I bought my first two does out of that herd I only took into account the herd's outstanding milk record. I didn't know any better. For the first couple of years I bred them back to bucks from that herd. When I started seeing these anomalous symptoms in later generations that couldn't be diagnosed by my vet or any vet I had to surmise it was in the pedigree. I couldn't wait to begin outcrossing.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

elchivito said:


> Lots. Congenital arthritis. Touchy guts. Precocious udders. Mysterious failure to thrive, none of it CAE related. Years ago when I bought my first two does out of that herd I only took into account the herd's outstanding milk record. I didn't know any better. For the first couple of years I bred them back to bucks from that herd. When I started seeing these anomalous symptoms in later generations that couldn't be diagnosed by my vet or any vet I had to surmise it was in the pedigree. I couldn't wait to begin outcrossing.


good call! some things are just not worth it.


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## mirage_mp (Jun 29, 2013)

So is out safe to do a little more distant line breeding, such as something like half cousins?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I will ONLY inbreed if the 2 are extremely correct. 
Do not inbreed if they are not the perfect goats, if you do it will make the offspring more dominant with the bad traits, and make it harder to breed out in the long run. 

I like to keep my inbreeding below 6%, though I did inbreed a few generations to fix the good traits for very correct kids, and the results were phenominal goats, with a 45% inbred pedigree. after that I extensivly outcrossed however.


Goats not thriving well due to inbreeding is common in some cases


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## VincekFarm (Jun 27, 2011)

So, I have a quick question still on the topic of inbreeding. Would it be possible to breed a doe to her sire and turn out with good kids?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Only if the doe and her sire have good comformation. But if they have less than satisfactory conformation, inbreeding will concentrate the bad conformation.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

VincekFarm said:


> So, I have a quick question still on the topic of inbreeding. Would it be possible to breed a doe to her sire and turn out with good kids?


It is possible. I'm going to do a little bit (not too much) in the next couple of years. I have 2 Nubian/Lamancha does. One is bred to my kinder buck, he's a nice buck, but I goat an oberhasli buckling for this years breeding. I am planning (hoping I get at least 2 does next season) one I will breed to my kinder buck and one I want to breed back to her father, to see if my oberhasli bucks awesome traits come through. He is already showing good confirmation, nice sturdy features, however I'm really only wanting to do this once, and might chicken out when the time comes. I have a healthy good herd. Besides one down doe, that is doing better everyday.. She should make a full recovery, severe copper deficiency She will be up for breeding next season


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