# Setting up a doe



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Our fair was Friday night, and my son is still upset that the judge told him he didn't place because he wasn't setting up his doe right! OMG... none of us could believe that, especially since the judge on Tuesday never said anything about the way he was setting up his doe, and he placed 2nd in showmanship.

Here are a few pics from showmanship, how is he not setting her legs up right??? :? <2nd from the left>




































I figured I'd post here. In my other post about the kids shows, I mentioned that it was a tough show, a lot of the state fair type competitors from pro breeding families were there, and everyone was commenting on how the judge seemed to be favoring those kids, and not giving the others a chance. A woman in our county whose son shows a market goat also had a lamb the night before with this same judge, and she said the same thing. I am not saying he was a bad judge, but I do think he was really hard on the kids who aren't from 'pro' families.

Anyway...I can't see where he is doing anything wrong with the way he is setting his doe up. The only downfall about this doe at all is just the fact she was weaned 3 weeks ago and lost weight/sunken in, but she is as good as gold in the showring, we're absolutely proud of her, the goat on the left of her was bouncing all around, ran into her a few times, and she just stood there perfectly for my son and does what he askes.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

That is the judge's exact reason for not placing the doe...he wasn't setting her up right? That is ridiculous. And being that he placed 2nd in showmanship...something is wrong with the judge...not your son or your goat. Was this a sanctioned show?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

That setting up looks great to me ... nothing wrong with it at all!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks! Yes, that is what the judge told him, that he wasn't placing her feet right. I think maybe one time she moved a foot out of place, but it had been because the goat on the left of her bumped her hard when he was giving the boy a hard time, and it just kind of put her off balance, but she never fussed.
This had my son really really upset all evening. See they had so many kids in the 9-12 class, they divided it into 2 'heats' 11-12 and then the 9-10 came in. My son was in the 9-10 class since he was 10 at the start of the year. Well the judge just asked him and the boy on the left to leave the ring afterwards, shook their hand and told them what they need to improve on, and didn't say anything else, the boys were confused, and upset that they were not able to be in the final lineup <they brought the top 3 11-12 year olds back in to compete with the top 3 9-10 year olds>. My son had no idea what was going on.

He may not have been the one to win, but I do feel he should have placed better, and they should have done a better job at making the kids feel confident in themselves.

I told him he may not always be in the top during showmanship, but at least the judge could use a better excuse! The only thing I saw my son do wrong at all was he was looking down checking his doe's feet and the judge had switched sides at the end of the line and he was a few seconds slow changing sides. We would have been happy if he had said that was what caused him to not place, but telling him he was setting up his goat wrong?


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

So was this a showmanship class too?
I'm still learning this stuff myself, but it looks like your son is 
doing a fine job. I think sometimes judges get a little lost.
He might not have really remembered why your son didn't place
higher. I think it's pretty natural to get ticked at judges, but I
try to be a good sport. Usually my goat just isn't good enough.
If this was a showmanship class too and another judge put your
son second, that is just proof opinions can vary. 
Tell your son he's well on his way. Don't take it personal. It's not.
A sharp looking kid like your son will probably get the benefit more
often than the short end. Just sayin'


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If it wasn't a showmanship class...the judges reasoning is not right....I know... that if they do showmanship... it is held for those who want to be in it... by choice and need to try really hard.... to show their talent for showmanship..... 
I see your son... from the pics.... that he has set up the Doe perfectly.... :thumb: 

Sometimes... the goat next to you ...may mess up ...which messes you up as well...but... they are suppose to have common courtesy... to not interfere with the goat next to them and allow room to keep away....

Some Judges are idiots ....I have to say.....and are not always fair...I am not saying... that all are but... I have seen a few... in the shows ...that I really didn't like and were very unfair ..these weren't even my goats being judged.... and I seen... that it wasn't right :doh: 

Your son did great...and remember ...that not all judges are the same..... they need help teach not criticize... especially if ...it wasn't a showmanship class..... and the Doe ...should of been judged for conformation... not ..if one leg moved out of position.... One of the greatest judges in my opinion... is Fred Homeyer :hug:


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Yeah, there is no reason for your son to have been booted out of the class. Since this wasn't a showmanship class and even then...in a showmanship class, if he wasn't setting the doe up correctly, he should have just been moved to last place...i've never seen a judge remove a handler from the ring for handling mistakes. There is no excuse for a judge to do what he/she did! I would have complained. I am so sorry. :hug:


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Sorry I should have said this is a showmanship class. The kids didn't make the top '6' which is who they give ribbons too, so they just kind of booted them out of the ring - they had to divide the 9-12 year old showmanship class up into '2 heats' because there were so many kids. They brought the older class part of the class in, then the younger part, and instead of just having them all go out they told my son and the other boy to leave, and brought in the top 3 from the first heat. Just the way they did it I felt it was not fair. At least with the first heat, all the kids had to leave the ring. Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I've been trying to reply and multitask LOL

I know all judges have different opinions, and I don't expect my son to always place well, but telling my son he is setting up his goat wrong, when it's obvious he wasn't just didn't make sense, and really had him upset. I mean, how is he supposed to set her up, like a market goat? LOL I don't get it. 
Hopefully the show on Wed will build up his confidence in showmanship again. I hear it's a really BIG but nice show. 

Thanks for the replies everyone, I do appreciate it. It just bothers me that he told my son that's what he was doing wrong and why he didn't place. I wouldn't have complained had it been something else and something he was truly doing wrong. He had his doe set up long before the others, and she was standing there quietly, just that one time that I mentioned he was slow to move to the other side when the judge switched sides at the end of the line. I figured that was what he'd been knocked down on, and he would have been okay with that, just a simple mistake.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I still feel the same way... it was unfair of the judge..... even being a showmanship class.... a judge should educate... not make a child feel like they have done something wrong...and to kick him out.... :shrug: 
In this case...he did everything right... :scratch: do you realize that you have proof? Your Pics say it all...... The judge must of had a bad hair day or something ......to do that...I feel ...it was uncalled for....even being a showmanship class.... I also don't like.... that they combine the younger groups with the older groups either...but... I know... it happens.... 

If you wanted to fight it ...or complain... I would show those pics....because it is how your son performed...at that time ...perfectly.......IMO :wink: 

Show judges.. can be so unfair....we sometimes have the best of the best goat overall or perform better than someone else....but ...there is that one judge for that show ...who has one way on his or her mind..... and is focused on the things that they like or dislike ....instead of doing it by the rules..... :hug: 

Tell your son... to keep his chin up and hold his head high...he did a really good job..... I bet the next show will be better....never lose that confidence....and flash back to when you were wronged... by in the prior show ...live your time in the moment and prove... you have what it takes and my goodness... by those pics... he sure does.... :thumbup: :thumb: We are on his side and pray ...he won't get a judge... that weird again..... :hug: ray:


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## brbn (Nov 30, 2011)

The pictures look like he set her up great! The only things I can think of is that maybe he didn't set up the feet closest to the judge up first? If the judge is looking at the side of the goat the side toward the judge should be set up first, if he is at the front of the goat the front feet should be set up first and so on. If he is also a lamb judge (you had said he judged the lamb show the night before) He may like them stretched out a bit more like a lamb. But looking at the pictures you posted his goat looks set up the same way as the other kids around him.....To bad you couldn't have asked him to go into more detail.
Anna 
www.freewebs.com/brbn


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## polopony (Jun 24, 2011)

Some days you win, some days you lose. Some days your brother beats you-ask my daughter. Some judges are good at reasons, some are not. We had a judge last year that said he didn't want the kids to try and hide the faults of their goats, among other things. 

If I were to critique the photos, I would say he has her too stretched out behind. It makes her look unlevel in the topline. It is called judging and while we don't always like what the judge says, that's just the way shows go. If it is a 4-H show, talk to your leader. They often have the opportunity to give input about judge selection.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Everyone! I appreciate it! I agree Pam I could definitely show pics, but I won't take it any further than asking everyone's opinion here and kind of venting about it.

Anna - I think you probably are right about the fact if he is possibly a lamb judge, then he is looking more for goats who are stretched out, etc. I know our 4-H leader is a sheep/lamb person, can't tell you how many times she said 'market lamb' instead of market goat, and he did the show the night before.

Polopony - yep kids win and lose, my kids have gone in the same classes for breeding animals, but can't in showmanship because of age. 
Looking at the breeding doe pic I did take of the percentage class <I didn't post here>, and looking at these pics above, his doe is set up just like the other does. He set this doe up the same way at the other show and the judge never said anything. You'd think if it was that obvious, then the judge last time would have told him how to correctly stand her. But he stands her the same as everyone else was standing their does. We had tough judges last year, but not like this.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Thanks Everyone! I appreciate it! I agree Pam I could definitely show pics, but I won't take it any further than asking everyone's opinion here and kind of venting about it.


 :wink: :hug:


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Tell your son: Different day, different judge, different results. I think he did awesome by the pictures you posted. Don't let him get to down by it he will do better at the next show I am sure.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Roger I will tell him!  I think he's over it now, thank goodness. We've talked a lot about it, and he's ready for the next show. I told him it's not all about winning, etc. And that someone has to be first and someone has to be last, and sometimes the judge may see something in one kid, that he isn't seeing in another that reflects his decisions. 

We're going to one tomorrow about an hour away, I have heard it's a really good show, one of the biggest in our area, so we're looking forward to it. I told the kids not to get discouraged because I know there will be a LOT of kids there, and a lot of goats. Go in with their heads held high, be proud of their goats because the girls have handled all of this so wonderfully and try so hard to please the kids. I want them to have fun


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:thumbup: ray: :greengrin: :thumb:


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## goatgirlzCA (Mar 9, 2011)

We have all been there with our kids - my standard line is "its one person's opinion." At our fair last fall, my daughter was in a doe class of 3, and clearly had the best bred doe in there, but got second because the judge thought she was post-legged. I asked the breeder and another very large reputable breeder to watch her walk, and neither of them saw it. Just how it goes!

Good luck tomorrow!


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Good luck and I hope this show has a judge that doesn't just tear the kids down. They should be proud of what they have accomplished.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I agree with Roger.

Good luck!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks again  I am so glad I have you all to chat with on here, always makes a world of difference to have great people with great advice and support.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:thumbup: :hi5: :grouphug:


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## cowgirlboergoats (Apr 29, 2012)

the legs look the the other goats in beside him


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