# If you were the judge. ...



## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

What would you do? 

Senerio.....

4h county fair breeding class. Young girl brings in a beautiful well built and well muscled Boer doe. Only entry in the class. Teat structure is 2x3 well separated. Acceptable bite. 

Here's what happened. ....

Judge (who is a dairy goat breeder) gets on the mic and proceeds to tell the whole fair grounds that the doe is terrible and should be taken directly to slaughter and never be allowed into a breeding program. Then she follows it up with how terrible the child is for bringing such an animal into the showring! At that point, she dismisses the little girl and states that the doe will not be placed and is disqualified from fair. 

I for one think this lady was WAY out of line. I appreciate that she feels strongly about teat structure, but really? Just place the child, give your critique in a kind professional manner and move on.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I agree way WAY out of line! Poor little girl will probably never want to show again.
Those kids need to be encouraged not smacked down. Judge needs a good smack upside the head!!


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## polopony (Jun 24, 2011)

Unfortunately there is nothing you can "do", but I understand your frustration. 4-H judges do not require any training or qualifications, but they still should be professional and hopefully the kids will learn something. I have been fighting this battle for 9 years and my daughter just did her last 4-H show. Her dairy does that she bought and paid for place in open shows, but have often stood behind lesser quality animals in the 4-H show. I am glad that she still loves her project and is going to warehouse a few while she is off to college.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

OH i so disagree about nothing you can do,. I would be getting with the superintendent of the goats and I would be having a talk with that judge and they would NEVER EVER be allowed back at the fair. 

For heavens sake this is a 4H project, we are not talking a ABGA show. there I can see them saying something like that but really. What did tat judge do but I am sure discourage that child from ever showing again. I am NOT one that says every child deserves a ribbon but that is was overboard. Maybe not a first place ribbon even but come on. 
I have had kids and single kids in a showmanship class that did not deserve a first place ribbon just because they were the only one, so I did give them a second and told them what they needed to work on.


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

This makes me so angry. It is a 4H show and they should be encouraging children instead of embarrassing them. I would be talking to whoever I could to keep this judge from ever participating in another 4H show.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

There are so many other, better ways the judge could have dealt with this. Please DO talk to the fair committee about not having this judge return. She has no business working with 4-H kids! My daughters have made some poor choices in which goats they chose to show, etc. Judges have smiled at them and kindly instructed them, but never berated them. Consequently my girls LOVE showing. Good judges are SO IMPORTANT in helping us "make the Best Better"!!!!


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## polopony (Jun 24, 2011)

By stating that there is nothing you can "do" I don't mean I don't approve of the judge's words or actions. That being said, it really depends on how the judges are selected and by whom. If you complain, then you get labeled as a pushy parent. Been there, done that...have several t-shirts. Leaders need to step up and give feedback to their agent or show superintendent, whomever makes the selection.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

That was not only unprofessional, in my opinion it was cruel and abusive. A judge shouldn't admonish a child like that. They should educate and guide. That was nothing but petty and power tripping and wrong. I would complain to whoever is in charge of finding judges.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I agree with everyone else. Mind me asking what judge?


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

The judge should not be named publicly. No possible slander allowed.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

nancy d said:


> The judge should not be named publicly. No possible slander allowed.


Good reminder, Thank you Nancy


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Oops, sorry about that! I was just curious if it was a judge I knew, sorry!


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## Greybird (May 14, 2014)

I agree that slander on an online forum is not a good idea, but I think it would be a great idea to publicly post a YouTube video of the incident - that is, if such a video exists and only after explaining why and making sure that the young exhibitor approved of the idea. 

No slanderous comments would be needed - just let the judge's attitude and actions speak for themselves. Loud and clear.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Well that is a slap in the face ! How dare that judge slaughter that young lady like that ! How rude , insensitive and down right unprofessional of that judge ! I think the parent or guardian of the young lady should've talked to whoever they need to and make sure that judge gets a ripping for it and also banned from that particular fair.
Maybe two wrongs don't make a right , but IMO , a judge should know better then to talk the way she did to the child and to the public !
Not the best way for the younger generation to learn about showing !
If she was voicing her personal opinions of that goat , she should've kept it to herself and been professional about it.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

I agree with all! I'm still just fuming over the whole thing. 

I will not name the judge. Although I would like to name her and prevent her from judging any more shows! This is the second time I've seen this particular woman judge and both times I've been completely appalled! The first time she made a crude joke on the mic during junior showmanship referring to "mastication" as a word one could use to confuse football players! The woman has no business working with children!


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## RaineyDayFarms (Oct 10, 2013)

That's just terrible. Poor girl, I hope she doesn't let that stop her from showing. I know if I were in her shoes I'd be really discouraged. That Teat structure shouldn't be an issue with boers anyways should it?
I would definitely try to talk to those in charge and hopefully she would not be allowed back.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Slander is *false* and damaging statements. Reporting what happened and by whom is not slander (though I am not suggesting that that is necessarily the best approach.) If stating the facts was slander, we would have no news on tv, radio or newspapers;no yelp reviews; no eBay feedback; etc.

It sounds like someone in authority should speak to the judge and, in the least, an apology to the child by the judge is called for. Others have already suggested good solutions. Publicly humiliating exhibitors should not be tolerated.

The handling of the incident should go through proper local channels, IMHO, but it is not the judges feelings that are of major concern -- it is the child's. :2cents:

Vicki


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Well said.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I agree I would not say the name, yes we want to know because we want to stay away from her, but that said, it is still best not to say anything.

I just hope with all this that the young 4Her will still continue with 4H and not let this ruin their desire to do this.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

nancy d said:


> The judge should not be named publicly. No possible slander allowed.


The key here is *possible* slander. This is not the place to name names and have a public hearing. What an ugly mess that could be!

4-H needs to deal with it. One way to look at it is that the judge was being a bully. It is up to the bystanders to stand up for this girl. Notify the people in charge of the judging. If that doesn't get results, then go up another level. If you still don't get results, keep going up in the organization until you do.

I'm sure that the 4-H organization as a whole would be appalled and would not tolerate this type of behavior *if they knew about it.* My daughter was in 4-H and we never saw or heard of anything like this happening. I can't imagine it not being addressed if it had happened -- at least not around here.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, way out of line.

If the Doe had only bad teat structure, going against her, the judge shouldn't of slammed her so badly, she also must of had good points as well, which also should be pointed out, I can't believe the Doe was so bad, that slaughter was brought up there.

Teat structure is a very important quality and needs to be within boer standards when showing a Doe, so be aware of that in the future. It is a no, no.
Whethers and bucks it doesn't matter.

Judges though, are suppose to teach what to look for, show highlights and show flaws, in a respectful and nice manor, these are children for pete sakes and should never be humiliated or slandered in any way. 
Very good professional ABGA judges are kind in their presentation of these things. _Fred Homeyer_ is one of the best, I seen him in person and he explained the good and bad, but never just simply slammed and condemned the goat because of a flaw.

This is so sad. I hope the child will show again, we will always have letdowns, but that was way over the top. Know that a big majority of judges are not that way. And to encourage her to show again.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I agree that the bystanders that heard this judge berating the child's goat , should have said something right then and there. 
But sometimes when these things happen , some are shocked and/or afraid to say anything cause it *might* affect their own personal outcome showing or some may think that the judge is *right* and not know any better to say anything. But i think everyone was just plain shocked at this judges performance and couldnt wait to get the heck out of there. I feel sorry for whoever was there and witnessed this and especially the young folk who are so impressionable.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Here's a pic of the goat Toth Boer goats.....


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

That is a great looking doe 
I'm kind if wondering why they had someone who raises dairy goats judging meat goats when they are judged so differently and I agree with everyone else the judge had not right to do that and I feel sorry for the poor little girl 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

BCG said:


> Here's a pic of the goat Toth Boer goats.....


Wow, she is a very nice Doe. I see no reason to be so harsh on her, the judge was so wrong.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

How about a wide angle shot from the bystanders point of view……..
The judge shouldn't be named of course but no one said anything about a picture 

( KIDDING ) :wave: :|


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

midlothianffa said:


> That is a great looking doe
> I'm kind if wondering why they had someone who raises dairy goats judging meat goats when they are judged so differently and I agree with everyone else the judge had not right to do that and I feel sorry for the poor little girl
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


 I agree.

When you see a dairy goat judge at a meat goat show or breeding class show, usually the person who hired the judge, didn't do the research on what judge type it was or the judge was a cheaper pay out for them to do the job. Which is not good, if they are specializing in one certain goat type, that is all they see, even in meat goats sadly, so very different.

Having the wrong type, such as dairy for a meat goat class, it is very unfair and some really good goats pass by that judge and are placed lower then they should be by meat goats standards.


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## COgoatLover25 (Dec 23, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> I agree.
> 
> When you see a dairy goat judge at a meat goat show or breeding class show, usually the person who hired the judge, didn't do the research on what judge type it was or the judge was a cheaper pay out for them to do the job. Which is not good, if they are specializing in one certain goat type, that is all they see, even in meat goats sadly, so very different.
> 
> Having the wrong type, such as dairy for a meat goat class, it is very unfair and some really good goats pass by that judge and are placed lower then they should be by meat goats standards.


That's actually what happened to me at fair this year, a dairy goat judge was judging the meat goats :-/ We got last, he placed the most refined ones first ...I was not happy lol


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Many meat goat judges started out as dairy judges & some still do both.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Even as a dairy goat breeder who knows little about meat goats, I can tell she's a very nice doe.


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## Crystal (Jan 20, 2013)

I think she looks nice. I have seen a lot worse place. We have had issues with Judges also. My Niece her first show 2 years ago left the ring crying. That class she had a 3 month old that usually walks but some reason they put over a foot of sand in the ring & she would NOT walk. Judge made all kinds of comments. Same judge has put several other kids in tears. That judge also placed some of our goats in the back to have the same goat win Res. Grand at ADGA show a month later. We have done complaints on her & she was not suppose to Judge again but this year another one backed out last min so she did it again. Ours was not as bad this year but she was nasty to other kids. We complained again. Judges need to remember if they see a fault or.... the way they talk to children can make them NEVER want to show again.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is very sad indeed.


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## polopony (Jun 24, 2011)

As I stated earlier, I have sat ringside for my daughter's entire 4-H show career and been frustrated in the judging. What I have learned is that there is a very limited list of 4-H judges to choose from. They don't get paid much to judge, and you'd better get your request in early or you will get whomever can show up. I would rather have a person who at least knows goats rather than the swine judge from the FFA show. 

One of the big problems is that there are not a lot of goat kids, at least in my area. We have worked really hard to grow our numbers. We have gone out this year and are trying to work with the extension office to see if we can get sponsors to help pay for a qualified judge. Not sure how that is going to work out yet. We also lobbied and pushed and shoved until we got the dairy and meat goats into separate classes. The way we did that was to keep telling them "that is what happens at the state level" over and over. Also we put the cattle people on the spot and told them if we had to show the dairy goats with the meat goats, then they had to put the dairy and beef cattle together. It caused a pretty big stir, but they finally got the point. 

Lastly, we called around and got recommendations from other clubs on judges they would recommend. We went to Open shows and recruited people interested in judging 4-H. Sometimes you have to ask. Maybe this way, we can have a big enough list to eliminate those judges who don't really want or need to be there. 

Oh, and I just judged my first 4-H show. The judge they hired had to go in for an emergency surgery. I've spend 7 years ringside at ADGA and ABGA shows as well as 4-H ones, but I spent the week studying the scorecards and doing online judging practice. I got asked back by the kids, the parents, and the superintendent.


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## polopony (Jun 24, 2011)

Hopefully on be on the list next year.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

Very disappointing to hear. Superintendent and others should have pulled the judge to the side and expressed their concern.

No excuse for that, being a judge myself.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

midlothianffa said:


> I'm kind if wondering why they had someone who raises dairy goats judging meat goats when they are judged so differently
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


4H judges are often to asked to judge both meat and dairy animals. There often are not enough funds to pay for a judge for each variety. At our fair the same judge does swine, sheep (breeding and market) and goats....breeding, market, dairy and mini.


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## midlothianffa (May 5, 2013)

kccjer said:


> 4H judges are often to asked to judge both meat and dairy animals. There often are not enough funds to pay for a judge for each variety. At our fair the same judge does swine, sheep (breeding and market) and goats....breeding, market, dairy and mini.


We can only show meat goats I forgot about some places showing dairy

Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Crystal said:


> That class she had a 3 month old that usually walks but some reason they put over a foot of sand in the ring & she would NOT walk..... That judge also placed some of our goats in the back to have the same goat win Res. Grand at ADGA show a month later.


You never know how your animal is going to act once it's in a show ring....especially a young one. I've had more experience with steers and horses but I know this for a fact. I had a horse once that we could do ANYTHING with....crawl between his legs with an aerosol sprayer going, etc. He kicked at the judge with both hind feet! I've had steers we could ride, walk up to in an open pasture, etc go absolutely nuts when they got to town for the show.

As for placement, each judge is different. The judge last year at the horse show LOVED Lizzie's mare. She was Reserve Grand over all. SAME judge this year....HAHAHAHA....placed near the bottom showing against the exact same horses as last year! We've had ONE judge that judged based on age and breed (like they should) and he place Cyclone FOURTH in an aged gelding class of almost 20 quarter horses (we know when Cy goes in to a halter class he'll be near the bottom)!! Judges opinions all change based on day, how the animal is acting etc. Just because you don't agree with them or another judge places your animal higher doesn't mean that the judge was wrong on THAT day. And I can say that knowing that I've heard some pretty stupid reasoning from judges for placement....had a steer once that all the beef guys in the county said should have placed top of his class and judge gave his reason for lower placing as "too much muscle"... Judges aren't perfect.

At the same time, a 4H judge should NEVER make a kid cry with his comments. But I've seen lots and lots of kids cry because they didn't place higher. You can't change that.


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## Whimsy (Jun 18, 2014)

Hi I just saw this thread... That is so terrible!! I just started 4h last year and I thought a few of the judges were pretty bad, but that is just totally unacceptable!!! I would definitely speak to some people about that and not stop till something is done! Poor girl...to be so excited for a show and put down like that is so, so terrible! She's probably been looking forward to it for a while and putting a lot of work into showing practice, and I know that I would be extremely upset if someone said I should slaughter my girls... If u ask me that shouldn't be mentioned in a 4h show unless the goat poses a serious risk to other showers or goats, and then should be told privately by the judge in a kind and helpful manner. After all, this isn't a national show, it's probably a small county fair where kids should have a warm welcome to showing, and be encouraged to go higher. I just cannot believe this.


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