# Studding question - am I responsible for this?



## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Recently I decided to offer out a few studdings to my younger buck, after he'd proven he could breed by impregnating four does with positive pregnancy testing. 

Since he's a younger buck, no offspring to look at, I put him at the modest price of 25$, keeping her the duration of the heat and offering free rebreedings if the doe doesn't take. I watch for mating, take notes on the doe for proof of mating. So far I've witnessed him hit every doe. 

I've had two does (not mine), so far, that he's bred. My question is about this particular studding case and if it's 'normal' or not. 

A black doe was brought to me about a month ago. My male mounted her three times viewed and she stayed with him for four days, the start of her heat until one day past. The man had a boer herd and was worried she'd be bred by him so I kept her extra long just to be sure. 

She was mildly overweight, and today he's told me she went back into heat and was bred by his boer (complete with video of the matings) the male apparently mounted her four or five times and he just left her in. He said he HAD wanted her to stay a few cycles to ensure she was bred by my buck (which he didn't tell me originally..) but now she was bred. 

I told him that I couldn't board a female goat for three months with only 25$. I said if he wanted to keep her here for several months I would be willing to pregnancy test her and, if need be, lute her so she wouldn't get hurt by carring the boer's kid(s). The preg test and Lute would be free, which I thought was generous, and the boarding for the doe would be 35$ to cover cost of feed plus, pretty much, a spot in my herd that I have to now care for. Something I'd have to chase if she escaped (which she did when she was here the first time.) 

He said he would bring her hay and feed, so he did't have to pay. I'm not comfortable with this, since he's already getting a preg test and lute (at my expense. It basically nulls out his stud fee collected.) 

I'm not sure how much I am legally or ethically (maybe morally?) responsible for? I feel bad my buck didn't get her the first time, but at the same time he chooses where he houses her. I offer free rebreedings, to cover the issue of not getting hit the first time.. half the time I even offer to go get the goat, if need be. 

He seems upset that she didn't take, and doesn't want to pay anything more (Vet costs or anything to terminate the possible pregnancy.. or boarding, I guess.) but I'm not sure if it's my responsibility to fix the problem, since it's not my 'mistake'. I witnessed my buck breed her three times, checked her rear for the discharge and kept her for a whole four days. Potentially, I could be boarding her for five months (1 month until a preg test can tell/luting, a little time to recover/loose weight, and three months to make sure she doesn't cycle) whilst I am not getting anything financially for her. I as even willing to pay the ~20ish$ to buy a new bottle of lute if need be..

What would you guys do?


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I wouldn't be paying for the lute and pregnancy test. That's his fault for housing her with a boer buck. If your only charging 25 dollars, you should be doing driveway breedings. They bring the doe over when she is in heat, your buck covers her few times, and then they take the doe home... The guys out of line if he wants you to care for her for 5 months, lute, and pregnancy test for the original fee.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Sounds to me like you have already fulfilled your part of the contract, you are not in charge of his doe. He needed to be a responsible owner and bring her back at the proper time if he wanted to rebreed her to your buck. 

That is way too low for boarding of that time period. I charge $80 a month.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

It'd be 35 per month, which is a couple bales of hay plus a bit extra for my time. I didn't want to overcharge him. He says he's not rich and everything, and I can understand that, however he also has a herd of 36 boers and is buying nigerians quite eagerly so I can't say he's too strapped for cash. 

He wanted to buy a doe from me, and a nigerian buckling, hoping that if she has a nigerian buck then he'll hit the small does and they wont have a need to break fences to get to the boer buck. I have one buckling for 100$ he could take, old enough to start breeding, but he didn't want it. So he picked something younger and wanted a discount because it is younger.. I'm not certain he's very experienced with goats, but at the same time he's got a lot of them so I'm just not sure.. That's why I wanted to ask since I am newer to goats (double that for studding)


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Nope, not your responsibility.

You held up your end of the bargain. He was told you do not board and knew it was a young buck and may need a rebreeding. He chose to house his doe with his buck. 

I would not give him lute or a pregnancy test for free. He is the owner and that is his responsibility.

If you choose to board then I would make a monthly or daily fee. I've heard $2 a day from a lot of places. But most will not board does.

If she is to board with you I would require a neg CL test.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

He sounds like a jerk trying to take advantage of you and get something or nothing. He likely knows you're new to this and so is trying to take advantage of that.

A goat isn't sold for less because its younger. It's sold based on its quality. 

I would not do any further business with him.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Incredible! Takes all kinds, as they say...and this guy seems to be a class "A" user. He's seems to be trying to get something for nothing. I agree that you've done your job. Going forward, you might consider drawing up some sort of simple contract saying "I'll do such-and-such and take responsibility for this and only this...You are responsible for...and this is the full extent of this agreement..." 

On a testimonial note, I had a Spanish doe out to be bred to a nice Myotonic buck. The folks free-range their goats, so there was no feeding (per se) involved and they graciously didn't charge me a boarding fee. We had traded breedings -- their dog to mine (I had her about a month), my goat to theirs. They got 9 awesome LGD's out of the deal. It took almost 2 months for my goat to cycle and get bred, but they told me they witnessed several breedings, and I believe them. I brought Pepper home this week and put her in a quarantine pen with a young wether as a companion. Long story short, the wether's mama broke into that pen the first night...along with all my other goats, including my buck! All were happily waiting to greet me at the gate the next morning! I immediately separated them and fixed the gait...but if I come up with NubianX kids instead of MyotonicX...whose responsibility is that? Not theirs! Pepper's possible exposure to my buck happened on my watch. Disappointing, but no one's responsibility but my own! 

I wish you the best in resolving your situation!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

No I do not think you are responsible for anything!! Who would fast he chance on putting her with a boer? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know sometimes it just doesn't work the first to.
Now personally I would change your contract. I would do $X per month. No coming back that's the end of it. I have bought 2 does that were seen being bred but with the stress of moving right after being bred they ended up coming back into heat. That shouldn't be on you the same as I didn't blame anyone in my case either. If you don't think that's fair then maybe charge a little less after the first month.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Well, now I'm just mad.

He came, wanted to buy a doe and a buckling. I said alright. He didn't want to rebreed the doe and wanted 25$ off the purchase of the new doe. I told him no, he has that free rebreeding and my buck mated with his doe and I can't give 25 off because his doe didn't take. I was willing to give her another run as much as needed, he declined.

I went to get his buckling, and when I returned he didn't want the doe because she was 'Wild' (which she isn't. She leads on leash and he seen me walk right up to her, love her, and pull her out.) and that it's 'bad business' to not take off the 25$ for her purchase.

And on his way out he told me, three or four times 'I wont do well in this business at all with that bad business' 'Wont do well at all' 'You need to get rid of all your goats.'

I have _never_ been so insulted!


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

Icedangel11 said:


> Well, now I'm just mad.
> 
> He came, wanted to buy a doe and a buckling. I said alright. He didn't want to rebreed the doe and wanted 25$ off the purchase of the new doe. I told him no, he has that free rebreeding and my buck mated with his doe and I can't give 25 off because his doe didn't take. I was willing to give her another run as much as needed, he declined.
> 
> ...


 That is awful!  I can't believe someone would have the nerve to do that!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Icedangel11 said:


> It'd be 35 per month, which is a couple bales of hay plus a bit extra for my time. I didn't want to overcharge him. He says he's not rich and everything, and I can understand that, however he also has a herd of 36 boers and is buying nigerians quite eagerly so I can't say he's too strapped for cash. )


I wouldn't deal with this guy, period. Not worth it. I would just cut him out completely (just don't reply) after he treated you with this, and also with the purchases. That is unacceptable.

I would also recommend for future, writing out a contract that expresses your fee will cover the breeding (and maybe one re-breeding) but that you do not and cannot guarantee the doe will settle, and will not keep breeding them endlessly or pay for any further expenses.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice given by all.

Cut all ties, he is not doing you right and just cutting you down.
You have done what you needed to do and he cannot make you give that $25 fee back.

He broke contract when he allowed the Doe to be bred by his buck. Deal is done. 

He shouldn't even get a chance to buy from you, if he does, something may go wrong down the line and he may come back on you for something that is his fault. 

This is someone who likes to get his way and use people. He is a jerk IMO.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I too agree...he's not worth the head ache..he got what he paid for and IMO $25 is cheap...and I wouldn't even sell him a buck.


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## Greybird (May 14, 2014)

Don't look at it as an insult.
You just dodged a bullet by not having to deal with him or be ripped off any more than you already have been.
He's a user, and users always get angry when they find someone that they can't manipulate.
Get your breeding and boarding contracts squared away now, so you will be ready in the future. Don't make exceptions for the ones who want you to think that they're special little snowflakes.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I would not deal with this guy, letting a boer buck in with a smaller female (for any reason even if he thought she was bred) is pretty horrid. And I'd refuse to sell him any stock because its likely he won't take proper care of them and I'd feel bad if a doe I sold got injured by getting bred by a large boer buck.

Count yourself lucky and stay away from this guy. Some people will do anything that they can to take advantage of other people, he sounds like one of those types.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

I wouldn't even let the guy back on my property. He's beyond a "user" -- he's a full blown predator. You don't need his kind of abuse!


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Yup, what they all said. He is a first class jerk. Ignore him. Do not respond to him in any way and do not do business with him. 

You probably should not offer to lute another persons animal. Lute is by prescription only. You can get into some major problems if you luted someone elses animal and she had complications from it...or it didn't work (which does occasionally happen).

I agree with the contract also. Make it as iron clad as it can be and try to cover all bases.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Yep, what they all said! Stick to your guns and don't let him bully you!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I agree with all of the above! As an example of someone (myself) who took does to be bred by a buck - well all 4 of mine didn't take. I chalked it up to stress (as I know this buck produces well). Her contract allowed that I could bring them back for a re- breeding - I opted not to. Figured the stress factor was the reason my girls didn't settle. Sure enough, after I purchased a buck to breed at home they all took.

Don't feel bad - goats do what they do. Also, his goat may not EVER settle - you don't know her health history. I am still very good friends with the lady who owns the buck at the unsucessful breedings. - Nature is NOT her fault!
Nor is it yours. Ignore the guy - good luck in the future


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All great responses.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

You are undervaluing your time and your buck by charging only $25. That is way too cheap...you're going to be attracting people like that, in my opinion. Someone who wants something for nothing and expects you to jump through hoops to make them happy. Something you will learn in the goat business...when you start doing favors (like offering free pregnancy tests and lute, having the doe stay longer than planned, etc.) people will take advantage and walk all over you. Then when you stand up for yourself, they turn it around and make you look like the bad guy. Yep...I've seen it before. 

If you want to continue doing stud service, you should increase your price. I personally wouldn't do less than $100. Your time, boarding, and buck are valuable! Get a simple, to the point contract in place. Set strict requirements, how long the doe can stay, when the pick up day is, etc. and don't let the doe owner tell you how things are going to be. Make sure everything is understood before the doe is delivered for stud service. Don't do any favors. It's business.


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

KW Farms said:


> You are undervaluing your time and your buck by charging only $25. That is way too cheap...you're going to be attracting people like that, in my opinion. Someone who wants something for nothing and expects you to jump through hoops to make them happy. Something you will learn in the goat business...when you start doing favors (like offering free pregnancy tests and lute, having the doe stay longer than planned, etc.) people will take advantage and walk all over you. Then when you stand up for yourself, they turn it around and make you look like the bad guy. Yep...I've seen it before.
> 
> If you want to continue doing stud service, you should increase your price. I personally wouldn't do less than $100. Your time, boarding, and buck are valuable! Get a simple, to the point contract in place. Set strict requirements, how long the doe can stay, when the pick up day is, etc. and don't let the doe owner tell you how things are going to be. Make sure everything is understood before the doe is delivered for stud service. Don't do any favors. It's business.


Yup, pretty much exactly what I was going to say! Only worded better 

$25 is almost nothing, when you account for feed, your time, and also risk of disease entering your herd. If you have a young, unproven buck, I would still charge more, but offer free re-breeding with either the same buck, or an older one, if the first try doesn't take. And just make everything clear from the get-go.

I'm sorry you had such an unpleasant experience. Cranky, domineering people are never fun.

And no, you are not responsible for what happened after she left your farm. The fact that you offer free re-breeding should tell the guy that she may not be bred, and he shouldn't let her get in with a boer buck in any case! Sheesh.

But yeah, a higher price, and a clear, simple contract should help in the future.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

lilaalil said:


> Yup, pretty much exactly what I was going to say! Only worded better
> 
> $25 is almost nothing, when you account for feed, your time, and also risk of disease entering your herd. If you have a young, unproven buck, I would still charge more, but offer free re-breeding with either the same buck, or an older one, if the first try doesn't take. And just make everything clear from the get-go.
> 
> ...


The last buck (not Myras new suitor that was traded for a butchered rabbit! haha) that I rented for stud is costing me a nigerian dwarf doeling or the value therof. I'm splitting it with another goat guy... but still between the three of us (the tri colored, good milking lines, pooled, registered buck owner, my goat friend, and myself) a nice unregistered doeling at $250. So I basically am paying $125 for the stud that I rented. If they want one of my doelings he will give me $125, if they want one of his I will give him $125. it seems totally fair to me and we all get what we want. If I needed him back, they are more than willing to deliver him but since Myra didn't seem to like him I decided to try a different buck with her. Everyone else appears to be pregnant or I have a positive test.

The buckling I'm trading the butchered rabbit for is horned and unproven (well he probably has gotten a female pregnant but we don't know for sure) so the cost of a butchered rabbit is reasonable. I told her if he works for me, and I use him next season for Myra (or someone else) I would expect her to really up the stud fee even though he's not registered, his mother has excellent teats (I got to see her when she delivered him).

The stud you are getting I would expect to pay between $50 and $100 to rent him if you rented him out. Including me paying for food while he visits, but the visit no less than 2 heat cycles. However I'd expect you to charge $25 for an "in heat driveway breeding". Just going on what I've charged and paid here in our area.  And I am hoping you decide to stud him out (is he polled by any chance?).


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Sounds like he's a hothead....just forget about him. Keep doing what you think is right for your herd


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

Haha, a butchered rabbit. I love that barter is alive and well here  When it works for both parties, it's so satisfying.

That all sounds about how I thought for this area. I forget sometimes that feed is so much cheaper in the rest of the US.

I probably will end up studding my little guy out next year, more to get him out of my hair than anything else  I had a buck over for a few days a few months ago. After watching him jump my 5-foot fence, I had new insight on what it would really take to build a "buck pen." My little guy is not polled, unfortunately. Neither is his brother. Blue eyes though!



Dayna said:


> The last buck (not Myras new suitor that was traded for a butchered rabbit! haha) that I rented for stud is costing me a nigerian dwarf doeling or the value therof. I'm splitting it with another goat guy... but still between the three of us (the tri colored, good milking lines, pooled, registered buck owner, my goat friend, and myself) a nice unregistered doeling at $250. So I basically am paying $125 for the stud that I rented. If they want one of my doelings he will give me $125, if they want one of his I will give him $125. it seems totally fair to me and we all get what we want. If I needed him back, they are more than willing to deliver him but since Myra didn't seem to like him I decided to try a different buck with her. Everyone else appears to be pregnant or I have a positive test.
> 
> The buckling I'm trading the butchered rabbit for is horned and unproven (well he probably has gotten a female pregnant but we don't know for sure) so the cost of a butchered rabbit is reasonable. I told her if he works for me, and I use him next season for Myra (or someone else) I would expect her to really up the stud fee even though he's not registered, his mother has excellent teats (I got to see her when she delivered him).
> 
> The stud you are getting I would expect to pay between $50 and $100 to rent him if you rented him out. Including me paying for food while he visits, but the visit no less than 2 heat cycles. However I'd expect you to charge $25 for an "in heat driveway breeding". Just going on what I've charged and paid here in our area.  And I am hoping you decide to stud him out (is he polled by any chance?).


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I offered driveway breeding last fall to a select few. $100 per doe with a rebreeding. 1 guy brought three does, 1 didn't settle, so he brought her back a 2nd time. The 2 does delivered triplet does each, the third doe never settled and he sold her as a pet. Clearly not my fault as 2 of 3 settled. 
You are charging too little. Your price, unfortunately, is only going to attract losers. Raise your price and offer driveway service only. I would never take the chance boarding an animal. If something happened to that animal, you'd be responsible


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Well, sorry this went so dormant. 

Basically the guy blew up my phone, then changed his tune when I told him 'If you want to negotiate, then you will be going through a third party.' and firmed up with him, as well as outlining every single one of my favors to him. He still wanted to be nice and yadda yadda, but I stopped responding. I kept the 25$ and gave him nothing.

Then I relooked at the videos he sent me, and I seen something very important. In the background of the video there was snow on the ground and the grass was MUCH deader than it has been so far this year.. It's most likely from last winter because snow hadn't even fallen yet that year and he didn't live that far from me. 

So it was a total scam! I haven't talked to him since, ending on the last day of the texts.. Dissy, my stud, has gotten a LOT better at covering females. He settled the one doe who was being tough to settle (took twice.) and rebred my doe. We used to be hard pressed to get him to mount successfully and now it takes once or twice, at most.. Even my does are starting to respect him more and not treat him like a buckling. I think it's cause his horns have filled in and he's gotten his 'buck bulk'. He holds his own now. 

Next year, I think his price will be around 50-75$ Both his mom and dad were Registered Nigerians, his dad still has papers, but the guy I bought him from lost the papers for his mom. I had seen them at one point so I know she was. But I put off registering him and now he's unpapered. Not sure how much I could charge for that. At best I could get him Native registered. However he is small and gorgeous, so I'll have to get him looked at by some of the people here for his value. I don't want to overcharge people, but his mom has 5 kids and had enough milk to feed all 5 AND still be milked. While being on pasture with some timothy hay/corn. That's just downright impressive.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You could offer to buy the mom's owner a replacement certificate for that doe and then you can get him registered. There's no limit on how long you can take to get it done. It just costs a little more when they are adults. I just registered a 7 year old doe I had never got around to doing.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

How can I tell which goat she is? Is there a way to refind registration papers without knowing the number she was registered as? Or the name? They call her blue, and her name was... something something Bluebell. :I


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Wouldn't the owner know? He/she has to fill out the paperwork, you just offer to pay for it.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Eh.. maybe. He's got a lot of goats. He's a sweet man but not very disorganized. I can ask him, though and see what happens. I'm about to start a job, so financially I'll be able to pay for the registrations. 

My goat herd is mostly made up of goats who were once papered but for some reason lost them. I'm working on upgrading to fully registered animals, but since I only wanted them for milk it wasn't as important at the time. I only have two sr. does, one jr. doe, one doeling, and one buck. I've just started last year though. xD I really wish registries took DNA samples from their goats, so if the goat loses the papers you can send in the DNA and they will reissue it.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

Wow! What a jerk! I'm glad you stuck to your guns and cut off contact. Life's too short to deal with people like that.


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