# banding as castration?



## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

Well... i bought 3 pgymy goats, 2 boys , and he said they were being castrated. Which i was fine with, because the 3 are related. When i picked them up 3 weeks later, they were sore. walking very careful, and very sore. He told me he banded them and it could take 4-6 weeks. (ps this guy has a year left in vet school) So this week will be 5 weeks, and thier testicles are the size of grapefruits and no sign of shrinking yet. I feel bad for them , they are in pain, and i can't really give them anything. I had a vet come by and check my filly for something and check the goats( frankie and cooper) too.Frankie had a bit of a cough, and the vet said he can give him antibiotics to clear it up no problem. He said omg, are they banded? i said yes, they were done before i got them) he said i don't even know if thats legal anymore. He also said you have no idea how much pain these guys are in. He asked howmany weeks its been? i said about 4 weeks. He said thats not right, i could have done them with mins and it would have been over. BUT heres the part i have a question about. He said he can't do much for them at this point, and can't even give frankie an antibiotic for his cough, cause it will counteract with his scrotum. Said to call him when they fell and he will give me antibiotics for noth , as they will have open wounds.
I took a picture, and mailed it to the guy i bought them from ( the vet student). He called and was flabbergasted that they were still of that size. He said when he comes home from school next weekend he will bring scalpels and local anestesia ( spelling i know) and pain meds , and surgically remove them, if i want to allow him to. As i think even he sounded a bit worried about them. What would you do??
what should i do?????Should i allow him to? or wait? iam just beside myself worrying about them, and what to do for them.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I band my baby bucks and never had a problem...it does take at least 4-6 weeks for the goods to drop off and they are shriveled up within a week to 10 days fromn the time I place the band. I band at 7 weeks.
How old are these goats? Swelling that size in a pygmy kid is definately a sign of something gone wrong and I would really consider having a vet remove them surgically....and administer antibiotics as well as a tetanus vaccine.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If it is left untreated...they will become very sick....I think I'd let the person...cut them...But of course ...there is high risk... when putting goats under...
My vet... when he puts any of my goats under ...won't put them completely out....he will give a tiny amount... to start... to see the reaction...because you can't go back once given.... then... if he feels... that the goat needs a bit more... he will give it...make sure.... that they are not given too much....they may not come out of it...
I would write it up in a contract ...that if they die ...the breeder is responsible and will have to refund or replace those goats....signed by you and the breeder...it is very risky but... it isn't good ...to leave them as they are and wait til they drop off...especially when they still hurt and are big....they may parish first.....I am so sorry this happened...it is very sad...  
If all goes well...which I pray that it does.... I would give antibiotics and Banamine for pain and swelling...give something to prevent tetanus... .....good luck... watch and keep it clean :hug: ray:


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

1 buck was born in october and the other buck(i have his twin sister too) was born in november. I just didn't know if i should let the vet student who is also the breeder that i bought them from do it...when the vet said something otherwise, or should i call my vet and ask questions about it first. With that much risk? I like the contract idea too.
the breeder, he banded, said he never had a problem like this and is thinking that maybe, the bands were too old, even thou they were kept in a dark place, and so on, that they lost a bit of tightness,. poor little things, have grapefruits between thier legs on week 5. The fur is also peeling off of them, as they are soo big, and cooper is white, so i noticed the top of his where the band is , is also black. iam just worrried.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Questioning the procedure .... is a good thing to do and smart..... you have to be sure ...they know what they are doing.... Glad you liked the contract thing.... :wink: :thumb: 

I am praying that it all works out..... :hug: ray:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How are things? :hug:


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Oh, I hope everything is okay with your little guys. 

My kids are two weeks old, and the breeder says she will band them at seven weeks, and they will come home with me at eight weeks. I was concerned about the banding procedure as well. It seems to me that they would be in a awful amount of pain, and was also wondering about the option of having a vet castrate them surgically after I bring them home. onder: 
The breeder told me they will be uncomfortable and that she manages their pain for the first week, but still....


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

Update...well the "guy" i bought them from (vet student) , i called him yesterday and said if you cannot get home this weekend, i have to call a vet. Ive never let a sick animal go for more than a couple days without a vet and Frankie is not good. I said he will not last another week like this. He said he cannot get home for maybe 2 weeks he thinks.
So i called the vet and he was actually half an hour away on another call. he came by and said by no means cut anything! Frankie is in no condition for surgery for 1. For 2 the vet said they WILL fall off.(its been 5 WEEKS) But its going to be a long drawn out process. Something is wrong somewhere. He said he doesn't like the idea of banding, and this reason being 1 of them. There is heat in the scrotums still and he thinks its a bit of blood still getting in, but its infection he thinks. But he took a look at the top where the elastic is and said there is pus and weeping, and that they will fall off eventually. He couldn't believe it. He said you have no idea how much pain they are in.
He also said Frankie along with the infection is fighting Pneumonia. Which i knew from the hacking and the noises coming from him. Both little boys don't move too much. But frankie lately rarely moves, and screams often, not a normal scream, a "it friggin hurts" "iam in pain" scream. I am just beside myself.
I think i may have mentioned when i bought them, frankie had a bit of crusted discharge on his nose, and around his eyes and face he just didn't look healthy. So i explained this to him (he said he had just gotten home from college at 3am the night before and hadn't had a chance to look at him) which is fine, but i have to fix him. He gave me meds for him (exenel) for 7 days. i did that, he did look a little better. and then he went downhill again. I don't think it cured it all. He told me he would take them back and give me my money back. But i want him, i just wanna make him healthy. Ive never ever had sick goats. And this one came sick, and has been sick since i got him ( 3-3.5 weeks). 

the vet gave me pencillin for frankie and a cleaner/antiseptic spray for infection for the top where the elastics are. And said to call him if any changes....good or bad. i just want to wrap him up and cuddle him. He sleeps and lays constantly. It makes me wanna cry. especially when he screams. He does shiver and the vet said its probably with pain and discomfort. But can i put something on him for warmth?

thanks for the help.i should get pictures, so you can see what iam seeing.
anyway, 

susie


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

i would never ever allow banding again. definately not after this, just not humane way of doing things. The vet said its done and overwith within mins and its a clamp (similar to horses) and they are ready to go. He said its about 60 dollars per goat. to me worth every penny. never again.


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## Goober (Aug 21, 2009)

Maybe someone who has banded a bit more than I can say whether this might be a viable option: Adding a "good" band just above the apparently bad one, to totally cut off the flow of blood and infection, and get them to go ahead and get gone.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

pastrychef said:


> thanks for the help.i should get pictures, so you can see what iam seeing.
> anyway,
> 
> susie


Pictures would be good. I'm sorry your little guy is sick. :hug:



pastrychef said:


> i would never ever allow banding again. definately not after this, just not humane way of doing things. The vet said its done and overwith within mins and its a clamp (similar to horses) and they are ready to go. He said its about 60 dollars per goat. to me worth every penny. never again.


I'm going to have to disagree here. Banding is actually not inhumane, it's a quick, simple, and effective way of castration and done correctly there should literally be zero issues. You're saying it's done and over with in minutes and they're ready to go. Banding is done in seconds and they go back to playing quickly. I've banded many many bucklings, zero have had issues. It quickly cuts of circulation, shrivles, dries, and falls off with no problems.

$60 for a goat castration is outrageously overpriced.

Now, I think you're talking about the burdizzo is what you want to do in the future. I would say there is going to be a greater chance of infection done that way...not to mention the pain is probably worse then the band as the burdizzo actually crushes the cords. I've seen both methods and personally prefer banding.

Please do not call it inhumane because done correctly it is not. Unfortunately it is just one of those things that has to be done if you raise livestock. You've had a bad experience with the bands, but please know, what you're experiencing is not an average banding.


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

Well of course ,people that has had no problems with it, thats fine, and thier opinion. this is just mine ,. but what ive experienced with it....ill personally never do it again. Not after this. 5 weeks of hell for me, and for them. He apparently does it all the time, and for years, but this went wrong.very very wrong. So apparently its hard to know if its going to go bad until it does go bad. If you had to listen to him screaming in pain at 3 weeks and then more at 5 weeks..
What iam saying is personally ill never do it again, and i really would not care if it was 100 per goat, id still pay it. As of right now, iam almost 400 in vet bills trying to fix him.
Everyone has thier own perferences, after this experience its not mine.if it was a good experience, i would probably have a differnt opinion.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Many times there are those of us who do something for or to our goats thats been tried and true by many and sometimes things can go wrong and we end up saying " never again".... the only thing I can think of that would cause such a bad problem with the bandings of your boys is that the bands used were old and lost their effective elasticity. As I mentioned, I do band but I am always on pins and needles when I do because I fear a bad reaction.
I did a common and typical treatment for a deficiency in my doe herd almost 4 years ago and after research and asking a ton of questions I went ahead and did the treatment...it resulted in a poisoning of 2 and the death of one...so I do understand the reason why you are saying "never again" but I also know that regardless of how I feel about it, the treatment is still available to be used and with good results for those who use it... I won't personally reccomend it and I don't comment unless specifically asked. I truly hope that your boys are able to overcome this mess and I hope they are healthy and happy soon too.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

pastrychef said:


> Well of course ,people that has had no problems with it, thats fine, and thier opinion. this is just mine ,. but what ive experienced with it....ill personally never do it again.


I respect everyone's opinion and experiences, but I also will not sit by while someone says my method of castration is inhumane...so needed to respond to that. :wink:


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

thanks Liz, ya know its funny you say and old elastic that lost its strength. Both boys are in the exact same condition. He said he banded a new lamb that was born about a month and half ago from the same bands, and he was fine.
but iam crossing my fingers for my boys. especially frankie...he battling 2 things at once.

thanks


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## aussieheelr (Jul 29, 2011)

I've banded for 4 years now with cattle and this is my first year for goats. It's not finantially reasonable to pay $60 per goat for a vet. When wethers sell for only $50 at best, at least where I am, you'd be in the hole $10 each goat... that just doesn't work. 
I have never had problems with banding any livestock, including the 9 month old Pygmy buck I banded this year. My guess is that he used a bad band or improper band and "rigged" something up, and that is unfortunate. 
Just a thought, I didn't see how old your boys are? If their testicles were not large enough to band to begin with, so there wasn't enough to create the proper restriction on the blood vessels allowing blood to flow in but not escape the area. That could be the possible problem. My pygmy buck when I got him at 3 months old was still very small, and really I don't think he could have been properly banded until 5 months old at his rate of maturity. 
Pictures would be great though, if you can.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Oh my goodness. There was something not right done with the banding of these bucks. I would think that if the band is too big.. it will cause swelling. What Vet would think that it has been outlawed.. That comment is just plain weird! I am so sorry you have had to have such a terrible experience with your poor little guys. They were in so much pain. It is too bad that someone gave you such a bad opinion on banding.

I will say this again and testify..: there should not be any torture, any pain that last longer than a few hours. If banding is done properly with appropriate band, it is the safest, easiest, least stress on the animal, least worry of infection EVER! We have banded two years now all our bucks and I can't imagine any other way being as easy on an animal as banding. The day after- they are fine and jumping around like nothing is wrong. By day three- the shrinking has started and by a week.. I am checking for any wounds..which by the way.. there is usually no open wounds.. they heal before things fall off.

In your situation, the bands were probably the ones for cattle. THAT is so sad to cause a problem like this. I am so sorry you had such a bad experience but this is NOT banding. This is something else that was done..


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I think that part of the problem really was that the bucks were too old. We band at an early age. I have been told that banding grown bucks is not ideal to do. After reading back on your post.. it appears that these were not babies. I would personally feel uncomfortable banding a grown animal... I do believe there are more risks involved with banding full grown or partially grown animals and even 'other forms' of casteration are more risky in an older animal. In the case that the bucks were older.. I would have had a vet cut them. 

I feel so bad for you tho,.. You must feel so bad for them. I am so sorry you have had to go through this seein these guys in so much pain. But.. for record: Banding on young animals is usually a very safe practice and easiest by far than other methods. Banding an older animal .. I would not recommend.


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

Well here is the update.

last week cooper couldn't pee and was heaving trying to, and screaming in pain. i called the vet's cell, and spoke with him. He said to get water down him, and asked how far the scrotum was hanging or is it off (at this point would have been 6 weeks). i said it was almost dragging on the ground. he said well if the skin fells leathery its hanging from cut it, but cut it close to the scrotum. i did. the next day he was a whole new goat! hes bee great ever since.

ps they are 7 and 8 months old.


frankie still had his as of this morning. he started to have the heaving problem, and couldn't pee and screaming in pain. but his hadn't dropped. i took him to the vet and they surgertically removed them. hes feeling better already. and his phenmonia is almost cleared up too.

the scrotum they took off , the weight......2 lbs! and he had lost alot of weight because of this. so after 7 weeks they are finally gone.


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

and if i had of known i could have done it for 60 dollars each..i would have , considering how much ive spent trying to fix this.
someone in a post above mentioned something about price of goats and id be out if i had paid the 60. i looked for goats and prices and all the prices around here are pretty much the same. for some reason pygmy's are on the higher side to buy than others. and there aren't many around. sell quick. i paid 75 each for the boys and 150 for the female.
so 60 i would have spent.

but thankfully!!!! this is over. longest 7 weeks of these poor little guys lives. they can enjoy living with me now.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

What an ordeal those poor guys went through! :hug: It's good to hear that they are doing well though and I hope they are on the road to recovery and will lead very happy lives :hug:


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Oh my word.. this was an awful ordeal. So sorry for you to have to go through this. It sounds so painful for them. I know what I have learned and am glad you shared this for all of us. In your case the scrotum kept getting larger when after 3 days it should have shrunk up small and in the weeks following,, it.. just drys up and falls off. This was truly so hard on you as the complete opposite seemed to have happened.. I would have been so upset too. So glad things are better. They will be new goats for you now that they can think better without all that pain.


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

i have tried to upload pictures, it always says they are too big. pictures of what they were like and now.... but too big. 

is there an easy way to make them smaller. when it comes to pictures and making em smaller....iam not smart..lol.


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

just an update.

they are both doing great. The guy that i bought them from found me at a horse show, and said i now know why it happened. He said the elastics he used were too old and didn't have thier elasticity they were supposed to have. The banding "band" he used...he showed me one from that pack, you could pull it apart with your fingers. He showed me a new one, you can't move it.

I said ...well as long as you know what happened....PLEASE don't let it happen again. Check your elastics! These were 3 years old, ya think he would have checked them!

Anyway you would think knowing they were that old , that he would have checked them. but anyway.

theres the reason. He also thinks he didn't do them too late. But i think between the elastic and thier age...it all contributed.


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

heres the picture resized.
they got bigger than this remember, they were almost to the ground, and the little guys walked bow legged.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Oh my!! :shocked: Those poor boys!!!
I'm glad everything turned out well.

My boys are getting banded this weekend, I'm going to make a special point to ask if the bands being used are new.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

@WillowGem, make sure the bands are the little thick green ones. You can even buy them yourself for cheap. We blue kote once a week to ward off infection (=


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## maple hill farm tina (Mar 14, 2010)

This is definitely a "hot button" issue, and I just have to say that this isn't really a banding issue, it's an incompetence issue. As the daughter of a vet, I've seen castration done both ways - LOTS of times, and to LOTS of different types of farm animals. And I will only band my wethers. As long as it's done properly (and with proper equipment), there's no trouble with it. If someone uses a burdizzo incorrectly, it can cause serious issues, as well. And there have actually been many, many posts on here about people (including veterinarians) who did not have any experience with this procedure or that procedure and really messed things up. If you've found a vet with whom you're comfortable and who knows how to handle goats (although the comment about banding being illegal is a bit odd), hang onto him. And if his fees are worth your peace of mind, by all means, pay them. But it is not inhumane for others who know what they're doing to band their wethers. To each his own, as they say...


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## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

I'm so sorry that you have had to go thru all of this nonsense! and especially sorry for the bad job done on your little guys! I've banded with absolutely no problems for 3 years.. and I cant imagine what the problem was, but there was sure something wrong. I hope the little guys have a wonderful, great, pain-free life from now on!


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## silverpullet (Jul 14, 2012)

We have banded every year we have kids and the only thing that would have come to mind is if the band was too big. I always end up buying new bands every year, partly cause I never remember where i put the last ones LOL. Sure, the goats are crying in pain for the first few hours, but after that, they do not even seem to notice it. The vets out here treat goats like chickens, they are not top priority. have in the past asked for pain reliever for the goats or other items that probably most of you can get easily, but the vets out here say its not necessary. They question why I need something and then say that it is not necessary for whatever reason. And its not just one vet, its pretty much all. I had one goat die many years ago from what I believe was CAE, and then had a real sickly one put down a few years ago (probably about 2 years later) to what the vets thought were Johnnes disease. Lat year had one die who was always "not right" though it was never found out why. Just a very unthrifty goat, no matter what I tried to do. With very little goat knowledge in the vets or a "if its not a cow or a horse it does not matter attitude", there is little you can do. Sorry your boys suffered for so long, but glad they are on the mend!


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## pastrychef (Mar 22, 2012)

Ive come to the conclusion also, to each thier own. i know people that have banded for YEARS!! and never had a problem...but also made absolute sure everything is new and done correctly. This was done by a vet student who should have known better!!
I think each person has thier own opinion as with everything...i don't think its illegal, but again you hear everything when a topic like this arrises.
Me personally will never do it again, because of my experience. Lucky now, Frankie and Cooper are normal healthy boys. But Frankie almost died. so personally id go another way.

whatever way you do...check your elastics!! these guys had 7 weeks of this. and when at the end they were cut off, they were weighed....3 pounds!


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## kid'n'kaboodle (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm so glad everything worked out well. I agree with Maple Hill Farms.....it was a matter of incompetence. I have my reservations about the integrity and the judgement of the seller, though. I think at minimum he should have offered to pay for an immediate vet call if he couldn't be there. Goats in that much pain need care immediately. You did the right thing to keep on it until it was resolved.


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