# nigerian show goats



## enchantedgoats

I am thinking about showing nigerians. i'm a little confused. i attended an ADGA show and came away shaking my head. i was under the impression that nigerians are supposed to be dairy like (not pygmy) yet several classes (not all) were won by short obese goats that look like spotted pygmys, while the dairy does that looked like they worked for living were further down the line. then when the other breeds were shown the really nice dairy goats won. this is not the first show i've seen this, and i just need some feedback. I have been a dairy cattle judge for many years and thought dairy goats (all breeds) were supposed to be judged like dairy cows with 2 teats. Am i wrong?


----------



## ksalvagno

It is my understanding that they want them looking more dairy. Is it the same judge? Some judges have their own opinions.


----------



## rdmtnranch

I am interested to hear about this as well. I am having the same question. I was thinking maybe they were picking the "fatter" ones because of depth? The ones with more depth do look pigmy-like because they have this large barrel and teeny legs. I'm new so not an expert at all.


----------



## enchantedgoats

It was the same judge for the whole show. Doesnt the score card say that udder and dairy character are more important than body capacity? Well I guess I will show the more dairy like goats that are better milkers and hope for the best.


----------



## enchantedgoats

i'm not saying that the champions were not deserving because they were, but after that i really got confused.


----------



## rdmtnranch

Well good luck. I guess how it works is you will have success with some judges and none with others. I had one doe kid take first in one class and last in the other. Go figure. Two different judges.


----------



## Crystal

Judges are all different. Some judges raise other types of goats or they like the older style milk goats. Some like the smaller ones. We have a goat that won when she was 2 1/2 months old. Showed her in April at the county fair and was placing in the back. Showed her 2 weeks ago at the ADGA show and took Res Grand with one Judge and 3rd with the other. All different Judges.


----------



## BrokenArrowRanch

I have seen the same thing. I went to a AGS/NDGA show a couple months back, First show I watched. The placings were just all over the place. One class winner was a nice lengthy dairy type. Next winner was a short fat looking Nigerian. when there were long, dairy type does in the class that didn't place. The judge just didn't seem to know what he liked. It was crazy. I swear some of the Nigerian class winners looked more like pygmy goats than the pygmy goats I have at home!


----------



## VincekFarm

It really depends on the judge. It's not the way I think it should be. Most times the fat; sometimes obese goats take grand. I feel dairy goats should be elegant & dairy. Not short,stubby with their stomachs almost touching the ground. I have started off breeding elegant & dairy and I will continue to do so.

A lot of people breed for more the pygmy look because they know it is what has been winning in the ring.
I personally think people don't have the impression that they should of Nigerians.


----------



## ThreeHavens

I like my does a little on the chubby side, but that's my preference. Different judges have different tastes.


----------



## MrKamir

For this very reason, I sold my AGS registered Nigerian Dwarf herd. Had people saying my goats were ugly and didn't look good. Most of mine were long leg and elegant and long body. Some reminded me of deer. Dainty. Had problems selling them. I just had it. Now they are gone. I kept two for dairy personal use. I just got a email that a doeling born from a buck and doe I sold last year won junior grand champion. Go figure.
Went to a show recently. I raise fainting goats now. They had a dairy goat judge and a meat goat judge. Showing same meat goats for both shows. :shrug: All placed different. All depends on the judge.


----------



## ThreeHavens

That's too bad, MrKamir!


----------



## Scottyhorse

Had the same thing happen in my first show today! For the dairy class I was in, I was grand champ. In the overall where all the grand and reserve champs compete, I didn't place, and this super fat doe got grand champ! My current buck is more of the old style, and the doe that I took today is the slimmer, longer body. I think they will have good kids in a happy medium. I just don't think it's fair.


----------



## ThreeHavens

No, it's not fair ... I do like stocky looking goats, but that's because they have a hardy feel to them. I have a mix, and I enjoy the variety. Everyone's beautiful in their own way. I have some stocky, some slim, some perfectly in-between.


----------



## firelight27

It seems to me that what wins in the show pen in the "real" dairy breeds, should absolutely win in the Nigerian. The point is to be a perfect replica of a full sized dairy goat, correct? I never see chunky, bloated looking does win in the standard breeds. It is always long, sharp, level, dairy does that are winning. I think the more pygmy looking, hefty Nigerians who win do it because they have huge udders. Some judges don't seem to look at anything else. I've seen some of those does, which I call "mini cows", walk in with legs so posty they look like 2X4s, but they win because their udders look like they are equal to 1/3 of the size of the entire goat...where-as the really dairy does may have better attachements, shape, etc. but don't have the massive capacity. I think its inconsistency... 

It is exactly like showing Quarter Horses in halter. It seems to be gettign a bit better, but they walk in with horses with double muscle...Arnold Schwarzennegar horses...with legs so posty that if you even tried to ride them the legs would snap. Absolutely the opposite end of athletic, yet all the juddges see is that massive muscle and BAM, first place...Some judges harp on ONE thing and are blind to the entire picture. I think it may be one reason why Nigerians can have a bad rep amongst breeders of standard goats. You really just have to go to as many shows as possible. Width is important, so is body depth...but dairyness, length, level-ness, angularity, etc. is what makes a diary goat a DAIRY goat. You just have to stick to your guns..breed and select what you KNOW is correct for a dairy goat and go to as many shows as you can...if we want to keep moving the breed forward so that one day most of the large breed dairies will actually consider our breed a "true" dairy breed..we just have to keep striving. 

Nigerians are still considered heritage as far as I know, so its still in its development stage. People concerned with careful breeding are the people who are going to pave the way for the consistency and quality of the breed in the future. For me, I look at winning LARGE breeds, and emulate that. I absolutely do not emulate champion Nigerians unless I can compare them to a full sized, champion, dairy goat and make many positive correlations. Those breeds are more established and consistent and my goal is to bring my Nigerians closer to that standard and to ignore the conflicting winners who have the body/udder capacity and little else.


----------



## MrKamir

Firelight, Really liked what you had to say. I had a friend come back from a goat show this weekend. These were not nigerians. They were a different breed. Goats looked like steroids were pumped into them. I saw the pictures on the show's website. Of course, these abnormal looking goats won. The sight made her feel unwelcomed with her little goats. But we both agreed that we are sticking to what the breed is suppose to look like.


----------



## Scottyhorse

Yup, I'm sticking what I believe, and what I think the majority of Nigerian breeders believe what they should look like. Dairy. Not pumpkins with stubby legs!


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

Sorry, I know this is an old thread.. But just found it...
I had this happen this year too... But it wasn't just the Nigerians... The standards too... The chubby goats were placing higher, and then the judge was saying they were more dairy... I don't know.. But, that's not dairy character! 
My Nigerians took last and second to last at that show... My girls aren't chubby.. They milk a lot of weight off so I have to try and work to get weight on them that early in their lactation... But, the next show we went to, one doe took 1st and 2nd! (Only brought one milker and it was a two ring)
So it all depends on the judge.. I honestly didn't like the judge at the first show.. And it's not because of my Placings... (My juniors did pretty good, better then our second show) I just didn't like his style I guess...

Ok sorry for my rant :/

Enchantedgoats.. Did this happen to be the show in New Boston NH on 6-1-13?


----------



## emilieanne

Skyla, the same thing happens down here. 

At my county fair, not ADGA but still..... We have a meat goat judge that judges every class. Even dairy. .....
So the one with the worst attachments but biggest udder wins..... Even when they're like 100 lbs! (Nigerian)


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

It really stinks... But you know what judges you want to show under and which ones you don't... As of right now, I'm not a fan of that judge, know I won't win unless I have a fat yearling (which dose happen once in a while lol!) but, it still gives me, my sisters, and our goats experience. It i had to travel a few hours and he was the judge, I would probably just not go... But there are other judges I would travel hours to show under lol!


----------



## emilieanne

I completely agree 

I've had a judge saying my doe (which was getting over coccidia) was GREAT and she couldn't wait to see sophya in milk and fatter


----------



## enchantedgoats

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> Sorry, I know this is an old thread.. But just found it...
> I had this happen this year too... But it wasn't just the Nigerians... The standards too... The chubby goats were placing higher, and then the judge was saying they were more dairy... I don't know.. But, that's not dairy character!
> My Nigerians took last and second to last at that show... My girls aren't chubby.. They milk a lot of weight off so I have to try and work to get weight on them that early in their lactation... But, the next show we went to, one doe took 1st and 2nd! (Only brought one milker and it was a two ring)
> So it all depends on the judge.. I honestly didn't like the judge at the first show.. And it's not because of my Placings... (My juniors did pretty good, better then our second show) I just didn't like his style I guess...
> 
> Ok sorry for my rant :/
> 
> Enchantedgoats.. Did this happen to be the show in New Boston NH on 6-1-13?


yes it wasand i'm still ticked


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

LOL!

Yep... My mom.. Who doesn't know much about confirmation and stuff, didn't like him either.. He just looked them over (didn't touch them; skin, bones ect.) and only checked for two teats on the Nigerian jr does... And then placed them.. Idk... Just didn't like him as a judge..


----------



## VincekFarm

Judges are breeders also and they have their own preferences in reference to body types. Personally I prefer does like my Appoline who is conformationally correct and milks all of her fat off so she looks like a miniature DAIRY GOAT! I do see judges that prefer the pygmy looking nigerian over the dairy-type nigerian. Judges will choose a fat doe that is literally falling apart. (She elbows out horribly and there is a horrendous gap between between her withers & her shoulder blades. ) I believe they will choose those types of does over people's more dairyier does because they think that for these fat goats milking doesn't take a toll on them so they credit these does for being hardy and milking easily like a dairy goat should. In reality the owners are spending ridiculous amounts of money on grain weekly. As much as I would like to name some people.. I wont. 

Some of the past Nat. Champions are these meaty looking does also.

When you have that much weight on a doe it is bad for her overall well-being. I know we all like to look at our fat & well fed goats and think "Boy they look great today" 
I'm just guessing here but with all the extra weight on a doe it should in the years to come make her come down on her pasterns considerably..


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

I like to be able to feel all my does ribs lol! Even in the winter I don't like having them fat.. They get enough grain and hay, I just can't stand fatness.. (Though looking at Gingersnap y'all would think I did lol! When she isn't milking she is a VERY easy keeper!) 

I know everyone has a personal preference on what style they like, and that is what makes it interesting... I just think that a they should look at their conformation and when they are so fat you can't see or feel their ribs they shouldn't be taking grand!

My does get about three cups of grain twice a day.. (Grain, BOSS, Alfalfa Pellets, and Beet Pulp.. Varied amounts of each to make up about three cups  ) 
I buy grain about once a month.. I can't imagine feeding more to get them fat! I would be buying grain every week! Lol!


----------



## enchantedgoats

skyla- i think he went by who he recognized. i'm not saying that Fairlea didnt deserve to place high, it's just that after that the judge didnt seem to know what he was looking for. there was a guy with a fabulous 3 yr old black doe that easily should have won, and when he was near the bottom he packed up and left after that class; he was so ticked. i didnt blame him a bit!and i dont know if you noticed but every time a youngster was showing they automaticly placed last as if 4-h ers dont have good goats. thanks for letting me rant!!


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

I agree.. 

Yah.. My sister was showing our dry doe, who is fat lol! But when she placed last (which I knew was going to happen.. I just didn't want to leave her home alone and my sister had no one to show so we threw her in) and he told my sister that they placed last because she was fat! I could see if he said she was dry.. But he was placing all the fat does in front! Just kinda upset me.. My sister hasn't realized how he was placing, and she just thought it was funny he called Snappy fat lol! 
But what are ya gonna do? Now we just know who not to show under  lol!


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Keep in mind that Nigerians are not truly a dairy breed, and ADGA was not very happy about letting them in the registry. 
So most Nigerians don't look very dairy for a reason. And yes, different judges do have different tastes, and a santioned show normally has a different judge each year, so an animal that won grand champion the first year, might be at the back of the line next year. You can never tell.


----------



## HerdQueen

Skyla, I was in the place ahead of Snap and your sister. And I did hear him tell her she needed to be in milk. Amazing I heard him say that, because he didn't have to much rhyme or reason when he was on the mic. This was the same judge that was at Heath this year. So I wasn't to terribly disapointed that we didn't go.

I think I know only 1 ADGA judge that has an appreciation for nigerians, but I have never shown under her. Word up the street(literally she lives up the street)is she has started a nigerian herd.

The judge at Brattleboro made it very evident when he judged he prefers the standards. He lit up when judging them. But to his credit I thought he did a fair job judging the nigerians. And he did a great job explaining why they placed the way they did. Even if he put Silky over Vixen because she had "more flash". Although I did not envy the kids in the showmanship class. Holy cow he put them through the wringer!


----------



## HerdQueen

You know at a show we went to the judge said how super dairy our kids were then placed them last, and yep fat kids first.

Wish I was a nigerian show goat when I was a teenager, I would have felt like a beauty queen!


----------



## Scottyhorse

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Keep in mind that Nigerians are not truly a dairy breed, and ADGA was not very happy about letting them in the registry.
> So most Nigerians don't look very dairy for a reason. And yes, different judges do have different tastes, and a santioned show normally has a different judge each year, so an animal that won grand champion the first year, might be at the back of the line next year. You can never tell.


If they aren't a true dairy breed? What are they? In my eyes, they are very dairy. Or supposed to be, anyways  
They don't really produce a whole lot of meat, so I wouldn't consider them dual purpose, either.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

HerdQueen said:


> Skyla, I was in the place ahead of Snap and your sister. And I did hear him tell her she needed to be in milk. Amazing I heard him say that, because he didn't have to much rhyme or reason when he was on the mic. This was the same judge that was at Heath this year. So I wasn't to terribly disapointed that we didn't go.


Good, glad he mentioned it!  guess she missed telling me that part  lol!
I knew that was part of the reason.. I guess it upset me a bit that he said she was fat as he was placing all the fat does in the front... And it wasn't just the Nigerians! It was the standards too! 
I don't really care I guess.. I knew that was going to happen for those two reasons.

The judge at Heath I thought was the same one who judged Sunny Sisters? I was upset I didn't get to go because I really liked him! He and the judge for the other ring were great! Really liked them both 

ETA- I also know a few others that won't show under the judge that judged New Boston  so we aren't the only ones who don't like him much lol!


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Nigerians these days are getting more dairy, but they were not always dairy type.

Before these past two decades or so they had really large heads, like a pygmy, and sorta thick bodies. When I first got into goats, everybody had always said a Nigerian is a cross betwen a pygmy and a standard dairy goat. If you have seen a cross between a pygmy and a, lets say, alpine, the kids look quite similar to a Nigerian. With a little refining of that cross, you can get a goat that looks just like a very dairy Nigerian.
When ADGA took Nigerians into the registry, like I said, they were not happy. The Nigerians were thicker built then. And there still is not a history on the breed other than where they are from. 

Ever notice when you look at the breed standards in the ADGA guidebook, they don't really say much about the Nigerians, but they talk up the other breeds? Or when you look at the breeds page online.

I personally don't mind Nigerians, I like them as much as the next goat.


----------



## ThreeHavens

True dairy or no, I adore my mini milkers


----------



## dixiegirl3179

I notice the same things at the shows I've been to. My goats are a normal weight I think, but next to many of the others at the shows they look downright skinny. I took twin sisters to a show and they placed 5 and 6 out of about 10 in the jr. show. The judge remarked that they were the 2 most dairy does in the ring. I am starting to think "dairy" is just code for "skinny". I found myself frantically trying to feed enough to make my girls as fat as others I've seen, but I don't know if I can afford that much feed lol. It's working pretty well on my dry girls, but not so much on the 2 that are still in milk.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Dairy character and underweight are two totally different things. But I agree, a lot of people are slipping up in that area of judging. I think the judges need to retake the courses before they keep going.


----------



## ptgoats45

I've seen a lot of skinny does at the end of the line that the judge will call "too dairy" in which case, I think they are saying the doe is too thin to move up in the line, if she had more weight she might have more body capacity, etc. Also, dairy character isn't just based on how the goat looks, it is how they feel, how the bones feel (flat vs round), space between the bones, spring of rib, shape of the body (wedge shaped), etc. I have seen a lot of does that look fat, but get your hands on them and you can still easily feel their ribs. Ideally you do want the ribs to be covered enough that you can't see them, but you can feel them. If you look at pics from the National Show you can see that most of the goats have a decent covering over their ribs, not to where they are fat but they aren't skinny either.

Meat judges most likely don't know/understand what dairy character really is and they naturally want to place the heftier goats first since that is what they know. It is frustrating, but you can show under several different judges, have your goats appraised and have a different opinion of them each time.


----------



## KW Farms

There was a show I was at this year where I was very disappointed in a lot of the placings for the nigerians. The placings were not consistent and a lot of ill conformed goats were winning their class. I noticed a lot of the overweight nigerians were winning. I definately won't show under this judge. I watched him stand there talking to random people while the goats were in the ring for over half the show. He'd tell the handlers to walk around the ring and then he'd go start talking to people alongside the ring (without watching the goats) while they walked. He didn't put his hands on the goats very often and his reasonings for some of the placings didn't make sense. It was really disappointing. There were some placings I thought were deserving, but way too many that I felt weren't. When you're trying to breed a true miniature dairy goat and the ones that look like meat goats with steep rumps, short bodies, posty legs, etc. are winning...makes you just want to give up.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

ptgoats45 said:


> I've seen a lot of skinny does at the end of the line that the judge will call "too dairy" in which case, I think they are saying the doe is too thin to move up in the line, if she had more weight she might have more body capacity, etc. Also, dairy character isn't just based on how the goat looks, it is how they feel, how the bones feel (flat vs round), space between the bones, spring of rib, shape of the body (wedge shaped), etc. I have seen a lot of does that look fat, but get your hands on them and you can still easily feel their ribs. Ideally you do want the ribs to be covered enough that you can't see them, but you can feel them. If you look at pics from the National Show you can see that most of the goats have a decent covering over their ribs, not to where they are fat but they aren't skinny either.


Thank you! 
This is what I was trying to get out! Anyone who knows me knows I can't explain stuff to save my life! 
This judge didn't put his hands on these goats... Didn't feel the skin, bones, ect. 
My doe that came in second to last with him, came in first and second with two other judges and was praised about her dairyness. 
These judges also commented in how these does they were placing at the top looked like a true dairy goat! Like a miniature Alpine or Saanan ect. That's what a judge should be looking for IMO, a miniature dairy goat.. That's what they are supposed to be..
I'm not saying that the goats that won didn't deserve it, though I wasn't a huge fan of the reserve grand sr doe.. But that's just my opinion


----------



## HerdQueen

^ Skyla I agree, I love dairyness.


----------



## firelight27

I think that all of this proves how important it is to get the same goat to at least three different shows with different judges if possible because you really have to "average" the opinions because of the differences. If, at that point, comments are fairly consistent one way or the other (and you throw out the placing that totally contradicts the average of the other opinions) you will see what's really true about your animals.

Also I think this emphasizes the awesomeness of LA...its like a class...they really dissect your herd. Its SO worth the cost and I put more faith and value in it. I would buy a doe who appraised very high over a one with a couple championships any day... I'm doing my herd next year.


----------



## Kaneel

I personally think that the Nigerians haven't been...developed enough to look sharp and dairy like the other, older breeds. I noticed that even with the ADGA national show the ND champions weren't anything to be very excited about. The RGCH for 2012 didn't even have a straight topline! It actually made me feel better if my doeling had any faults, since the national champion had a few that were apparently forgiven in the show ring. I was pleasantly surprised about this years national champion, she seemed to be a great overall goat(from what I can see). Fairly plump and rounded, but no major faults. Personally, I prefer the nice sharp dairy goats. I'll probably be sticking to mini breeds though since the big ones are so difficult for me to work with since I'm height impaired 

http://www.oldmountainfarm.com/Does-Senior-DDFawn.html _This_ is what a Nigerian Dwarf should look like in my opinion. Completely dairy. This looks like a scale model of a standard dairy goat, which is why I some day hope to own a kid out of this girl


----------



## firelight27

I think that is the ideal we should breed towards...a mini of the standard breeds! I so agree! I sold my does this year that weren't very long and sharp...every year I'm breeding/selecting towards sharper and more dairy. Its my focus. I want to see this breed develop into the ideal dairy goat...just like their large counterparts. The breed has come a long way but is still new in the scheme of things... but good breeders are really moving it forward!


----------



## LaMancha_Alpine_Lover

When evaluating a Nigerian, I personally don't cut them any more slack then I would on a standard dairy goat. People want to hold them to the standard of being a true miniature dairy goat, so that's exactly how I evaluate one. I expect a ND to be long, sharp, angular and stretchy, not a little barrel with legs that resembles their Pygmy ancestors, which unfortunately is what I see more than anything. I believe the breed isn't a true dairy goat, at least not yet. I think one of the main reasons for their slow progression in becoming a productive, smaller version of their larger counterparts is that 95% of breeders out there strictly breed for color, blue eyes, polled, wattles etc. I see more wanted ads then I could count only wanting a particular color or eye color with no mention of quality or productivity. It really brings the breed down and makes people look down their nose at them even more.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

This is what an ideal nigerian doe and buck should look like, from my ideals.


----------



## Emzi00

Lacie, you just made it near impossible for me to pick you out a Nigerian on craigslist :hair:
Those do look very nice


----------



## emilieanne

Lacie, find me them and sell them to me(; lol!!!!!!!


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

I can tell you that doe lives only about an hour or so from me


----------



## HerdQueen

I knew I knew that doe!


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

^ haha!!! :ROFL:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

By chance know the herd name?


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

Of the doe, or where she lives? 

The doe is ARMCH Flat Rocks Here For The Party *D EEEV 90, she lives at Dragonfly Farm in MA


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Oh my, I just looked at their site, I may be doing business with dragonfly farm! They have great ND's! Lol


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

Joann has nice goats for sure! Either her or Fairlea take the show most of the time around here!
And she is really nice and easy to deal with!


----------



## HerdQueen

I agree with Skyla on both farms. Here is a pic of my buck from Fairlea Farm. He was a yearling in these pics.


----------



## AmyBoogie

Mini mania seems to be hitting everyone!

I was just looking at mini's yesterday. Minis and Oberhaslis.


----------



## ThreeHavens

LOVE Dragonfly. I have some Dragonfly lines from my Aunt up in Alabama. They are a great farm.

We can't give up, Nigerian breeders! It's up to us to be responsible and breed for little goats that retain their rich milk and hardiness, but also posess that great production we know they can have.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

Oye! Joanne has a yearling for sale right now that I wish I had the money for! Mostly Rosasharn breeding with a bit of TwinCreeks thrown in for good measure! Beautiful little girl and only $450! If I didn't have two goats coming this fall that doe would be sold right now lol! 
I do want to get a doe from her at some point 

Here she is  :drool:


----------

