# Deciding on a new llama



## Lstein

So I've finally decided to give up on my llama Harvey, that he will ever quit his new bad habit. Around the middle of last summer, he started chasing the goats, just relentlessly. Just throughout the day, would be fine, eating with them and guarding at the top of the hill. Then just out of the blue starts chasing a random goat, usually always a different one. 

I've never seen him try riding one or anything but it's just relentless and wont stop. So now I have him in a separate pasture and the girls just seem much happier.

So I believe I will be sending him down the road, but I don't feel comfortable not having one around as there are coyotes in the area and he seems to act as a scarecrow to them.

There are some advertised in a local classified as young ones from last summer and I was considering maybe getting a female this round? They are asking $200, non-tame/handled, not proven guardian or anything like that. I guess, is that a fair price? I purchased my current llama for $50...so I'm not sure I guess.


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## Lstein

Would also consider looking into a donkey I guess...we had one for a little while, while my goats were still at my parents but he was a mean little thing that would grab onto the goats and pick them up when they got to close to his food. He honestly made me shun the idea completely. Not sure if it's different when you have a female there also or not.


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## Jessica84

How old is the female you are looking at? If she's young I would try her out. If she's older she might see the goats as a threat. Is you boy llama fixed? If not and you have the space to keep him away then you could always breed to get a bit of that money back. 



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## Lstein

He is fixed, but he was probably around a 1-1/2 when we did it. Probably why I'm in this situation now. 

The breeder says she was born late summer/early fall of last year, and hasn't been weaned yet. He's selling 6 of them according to the ad, males and females. The males are $100 but I'd rather not have to deal with getting one castrated and what not.


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## Jessica84

That could be why. I'm not a pro though lol I just know my male alpaca is doing the same thing. I know I'm talking a whole other animal here but I got my female alpaca when she was a little over a year, the make at 9 months old at the same time. She is soooo great with the goats. She is right there with the does when they kid and she will stick with the babies when mamas to out to eat. I've been told a million times alpacas are not good guard animals but she tried to bite my jerseys ear off when she came up to the goat pen and the other day chased my house cat out of the pen because she had never seen him before. So if something that's not considered a guard animal is that good I think the llama would be even better lol I know male alpacas and llamas don't go for much, $25-$50 but the girls, I paid $180 for mine and have seen llama female bring $300 and this is threw a sale. So basically my vote is to get her. I would have her where she is next to the goat pen for a week or so just so she can see they are not going to kill her then put her out. I don't think it would take long for her to bond with them since that's the only herd she will have.


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## lovinglife

Well, they make great hamburger, just don't tell your coworkers, some of them get mad..


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## Jessica84

Lol my dad has asked a million times if you could eat them and I just say I don't know stay away from them, but I guess now I can say yes stay away from them


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## Lstein

lovinglife said:


> Well, they make great hamburger, just don't tell your coworkers, some of them get mad..


I don't think I'm that adventurous haha, but there are somedays that I could easily do that with him.


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## ksalvagno

Unless you have a proven llama, there is no way to guarantee they will guard. Some alpacas may have guarding instincts but don't have the weight to stomp a coyote or dog to death. You can try a young female llama but there are no guarantees she will be a good guard.

Llama and alpaca steaks are great too. Even older ones are tender. Prefer it over other red meat.


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## Lstein

So the one I was looking at fell through, and I ended up putting up an ad to find one. One of the messages I got says that they have a 2 month old that was a bottle baby but is now eating grain and alfalfa. Is it just me or is that a little young to be off a bottle? I would be really interested in this one, as she is very human friendly being a bottle baby and that's mainly what I'm looking for. Having a llama with the goat herd is a perk, since just their presence seems to keep unwanted critters at bay.

I'm just kind of worried of inheriting another problem, I guess, are bottle llamas anything like bottle everything else lol. No manners and all over you? Mainly referring to a bottle colt I guess, where they like to bite and kick while playing. Or just the fact that she is, in my opinion, very young to be off milk.

Any advice, suggestions most welcome


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## Jessica84

I'm pretty sure I've read they nurse till 6 months old. Even if that's not the right age I agree that's a bit young. Now my filly was weaned at 4 months old, long story short the mother never should have been bred and the own is a business man more then he has a heart. But she did just fine being weaned so young. I'm sure you could get her to take a bottle if you got her, I have a full grown cow who will still take one lol. But I'm really not sure if they would be pushy and your typical bottle baby. I'm sure you would still have to make ground rules and show them what is ok and what's not. Usually my bottle everything calms down a bit a few weeks after weaning. I'm really not sure which way I would say to go. I would like the fact she's still young and can make a bond with the goats though. Maybe go over and see how she behaves in person???


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## Lstein

It's a fairly long drive, 3 hours there, that's what's really holding me back from just snatching her up. Because I agree, having one that young and already people friendly would be a huge step forward. Going to give them a call at lunch and see what else I can find out about her.


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## Lstein

Actually, looking into it it may not be such a good idea.

From this site

" If someone offers a you a baby llama whose mom has died, PLEASE get online and look for a llama organization near you. Llamas that are bottle raised alone by newbies RARELY survive - *and suffer greatly before death*.

If by some miracle they survive, they will develop behavior problems as their hormones kick in. *I mean behavior problems so serious they might kill you or a child.* An orphaned cria needs proper nutrition, an IgG and possibly a plasma transfer, and needs to be raised WITH other appropriate llamas - *not bonded to humans*. Be assured *this is not a job for a newbie*. And *certainly not a job for those without appropriate herd members to teach that cria how to be a llama.* Think I'm kidding? Read this and *believe it*!"


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## Lstein

So I'm pretty much confused on what to do now haha. The more I read into llamas, the more it seems these llama sites don't want anyone to have llamas...... that anything you do as a newbie is going to be wrong lol. Which probably has some truth to it, since I did exactly everything wrong with the llama I currently have. 

So I'm in a bit of a toss up...let the goats go without one or not. If I do go with another llama route, I want to do it the right way but as far as I know there are no proven guard llama breeders in north Dakota. 

I don't think I could go with the guard dog route as I'm simply gone too long during the day to give the required training. 

I guess I don't know enough about donkeys, other than a mini that was dropped off at my parents farm who was a mean little thing. I can't help but feel a donkey would gravitate more towards my two horses I have, than my goats.

What have some of you guys done, or any advice? I do have those niteguard lights everywhere and move them every now and then, and the goats are locked up at night.


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## Jessica84

I don't know if I 100% trust what they say. I was told not to have a intact bull or buck that was bottle raised and I'm still kicking and so are my kids lol BUT it sounds like you basically kinda have a bad feeling to start with, go with that feeling because it's better then kicking yourself later.
If.you don't have a big predator issue and this is more for piece of mind I would wait and find what your looking for. I also think the donkey would like the horses better which is why I don't have them. Dogs I'm not sure how much training they really need.


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## Lstein

I was kind of wondering that, since she's a female if she would develop any problems. Still going to call the people and see if I can get any info.

I don't really have a predator problem...confirmed anyway, it could potentially turn into one though. I have seen coyotes or have been told of coyotes around my place or close to it. Last spring I lost one kid, literally lost it, and never did find it until a week ago coincidently...well, just his skull. It was in an area where, this last summer, the grass was so tall it was almost taller than myself and towared waaay over the goats. I searched and searched forever trying to find him, but never did find a trace. So I don't know if a coyote took him down or for some other reason, obviously coyotes had found the body since then but I'm not sure how far they would go to take down one of the goats.


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## Lstein

So I just got done talking to the lady, who seems very nice. It turns out she was found on in the middle of their friends field as a newborn, the mother rejected her and has been on a bottle ever since. She's been fed colostrum and a lamb/kid formula, starting to eat alfalfa, and grain. Was on taking a bottle four times a day and still takes a bottle morning and night. She's also been with some other yearling/baby llamas, and has been around goats/donkeys.


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## Lstein




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## Jessica84

Oh is she not adorable!!! Now you did it I say yes lol. Now this is my 2 cents, keep in mind I am far from a expert on llamas. But she has been on a bottle since birth, so if what you found was true I would think she would be dead by now if it's hard to keep a bottle fed one alive. Is she still on a bottle?? I'm still thinking she's young to not give one....just me though. As for being mean later, she might I'm not sure but if you make sure she learns to respect your area and knows your the boss you should be able to stop that. As I said i had a male bull, breeding bull at that and I put up with NOTHING that would cause someone harm one day. So I have to wonder if they are really that mean or if simply people don't lay down ground rules while they are still cute and see them as not ever causing harm. Again go with your gut. If it's yelling no to you then pass. 
Now for your coyote issue if you end up passing. Do you have wolfs in your area?? If not I totally suggest buying wolf pee and spraying around your pens. I swear that stuff works. I have my goat pen and nothing try's going in it, but I also turn them out on our 800acrs to brows. I had a issue with one bitch and her two pups going after them and they got a few kids so I bought the pee and would spray right on the goats since there was no way to spray all around where they went. Stopped the issueless. If you go to predatorpee.com (I believe) it will tell you more about it.


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## Lstein

I know, that's what I thought as soon as I saw the picture..."oh no". She is still on a bottle twice a day. That's my reasoning right now too, is that she's made it this long. From what it sounds like she's and active happy little thing, likes to bounce and buck. I think I may have to go on a road trip......

We don't have wolves here, it completely slipped my mind to use wolf urine as a deterrent........I don't know why I completely forgot about that, thank you.


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## ksalvagno

Can you get 2? A single cria that young really needs another Llama buddy. The article you read was quite extreme. Bottle fed plenty of alpaca crias. You just have to know how to feed and handle them.


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## KW Farms

She's going to need to be bottle fed until she's at least four months. That's a lot of time and money. It would be much cheaper and easier to find an adult.

If you don't have much of a predator problem, instead of getting a guard animal...put that money into securing the fencing...put electric on top and bottom, outside of the fence. You could go through a dozen llamas to find one that will actually guard. On the other hand, you could try to find llamas that are proven guardians, but not all will work out. I had llamas and they were great, but not enough of a deterrent to the coyotes around here. I ended up having to get LGDs.


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## Lstein

ksalvagno said:


> Can you get 2? A single cria that young really needs another Llama buddy. The article you read was quite extreme. Bottle fed plenty of alpaca crias. You just have to know how to feed and handle them.


 I'll find out, I wouldn't mind having another female and I know she did mention that she's with other younger ones now.



KW Farms said:


> She's going to need to be bottle fed until she's at least four months. That's a lot of time and money. It would be much cheaper and easier to find an adult.
> 
> If you don't have much of a predator problem, instead of getting a guard animal...put that money into securing the fencing...put electric on top and bottom, outside of the fence. You could go through a dozen llamas to find one that will actually guard. On the other hand, you could try to find llamas that are proven guardians, but not all will work out. I had llamas and they were great, but not enough of a deterrent to the coyotes around here. I ended up having to get LGDs.


 I'll have to ad a couple strands of electric to the fence, I think my fence is pretty decent. It has two barbs on top, woven that's stretched extreamly tight...we used a tractor to tighten it between railroad ties, and a strand of barbed on the bottom. It's my neighbors buffalo fence that runs all along the west side of my pastures that I'm worried about. It's basically the same thing as mine but taller, the barbed wire on the bottom is starting to get loose though.....

I'm not sure how I could put strands of electric on my side of said buffalo fence, because the flat side of the t-post is facing his side.


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## Lstein

Yellow line = buffalo fence
Green line = my fence
Red Circle = coyote highway/hangout/sightings.


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## ksalvagno

Honestly if your coyote problem is super bad, I would have a couple LGD. No llama or even 2 llamas are a match for a pack of dogs or coyotes. Not even 1 LGD is a match for a pack.


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## Lstein

I wouldn't say its bad, just random sightings. They haven't started forming packs up here yet, thankfully, though there are rumors of the hybrids about two hours away from where I'm at. 

I wouldn't mind getting a LGD but I'm just scared that since I'm that close to the road, and with my neighbors that close, that it might run off or go to my neighbors who have 5 dogs.... Plus I'm gone 11 hrs a day during the week. Not sure if I could provide the adequate training for one.


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## ksalvagno

Then 2 llamas would probably work for now. I had 2 guard llamas that were actual guards. One would herd the alpacas to the barn and the other would stay by the predator.


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## Lstein

If, for whatever reason I cant get a second llama about the same age. Would her having access to my current llama, not in the same pen but could see each other through the non barbed fencing, be ok until I can find another? I wouldn't trust him to be in the same area as her, or the goats. Or would she probably start bonding with him vs the goats?


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## ksalvagno

Yes you can do that for a while. It makes a huge difference with bottle babies to be in with their own kind and be a llama. Also don't love on the llama at all. Only be the milk source.


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## Jessica84

She might prefer the other llama at first but she will see the goats can be her buddy as well. I thought getting 2 alpacas I would have the same issue but they both live their goats. I think llamas would work in your situation. Your kinda in the same boat as I am, there there but not really causing issues. And to be quite frank they are freaky looking animals lol. It took awhile for my dogs to get used to them they would bark at them and run away, my horse still to this day swears they are out to kill her and it's funny to watch the cows during the summer, they have to walk last the goat pen to get a drink and they spot them and run past as fast as they can. Maybe they have a smell to them too??? But do I trust mine to take on something that will attack back? No, but I think they are.....different enough to make something think twice about trying to go in the pen. 
But I do agree don't love on her, let her make her bond with the goats and great her as livestock. The only time I mess with mine is to move them or the dreaded shearing!! Lol


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## glndg

After reading the thread about Johnes, I'd get her tested for that and whatever other diseases they share with goats before introducing her.

But, she is very cute!


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## bbpygmy

Yes, I would also recommend testing for Johnes, it is a very HORRIBLE disease!


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## Lstein

I got great news, she is with 3 other female yearlings and she said she I could take one! So that solves the buddy problem, plus they are already friends.


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## Lstein

For sure, on jones testing


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## LadySecret

Is the Johnes test the same for all ruminates or is the OP going to have to find a place that does Johnes testing for llamas/alpacas?


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## bbpygmy

LadySecret said:


> Is the Johnes test the same for all ruminates or is the OP going to have to find a place that does Johnes testing for llamas/alpacas?


The University of Wisconsin does all ruminants. I'm not sure about other testing centers... We use Wisconsin for our testing. To learn more go to Johnes.org it is a website made by the University of Wisconsin and gives TONS of good info.


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## LadySecret

Thanks^^^


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## ksalvagno

Llamas can get all the same diseases as goats.


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## Lstein

Meet Lola and baby Ebony!














Will get some better pics tonight, when my hand isn't frozen to the camera.


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## Jessica84

Oh they are both adorable!! You must be on cloud 9 right now.


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## GreenMountainNigerians

They are so cute!


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## Lstein

Oh its great, she drinks from a bottle so nice. It's so different getting to touch a llama for a change. Ebony is of course just does circles around me (I've resisted temptation so far and just feed her). Lola is a little more wary of me but she does allow her neck to be pet and accepts baby carrots (much to my goats dismay, who are supervising the interaction).


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## GreenMountainNigerians

I'd probably have her back on the bottle! LOL! I put my older bottle babies back on the bottle when I brought them home till they were four months,anyway!


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## Lstein

Oh she is on the bottle still, morning and night, I just haven't interacted much with her outside of that. I plan on keeping her on a bottle for some time, as she's had a bit of a rough start.


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## Lstein

I wonder, is 16oz bottle morning and night enough? That's what the milk replacer says, wonder if i should maybe offer a third bottle. Going to weigh her tonight (wish I would have right away) and go off of that since she should be around 1# or at least some weight every day. She eats alfalfa with Lola fairly well. Picked up some Mazuri llama feed and will offer that to both of them tonight. 

Going to call the vet and see if I can get her in for a checkup and if I'm feeding her enough. Judging by how much she likes the bottle I think I can up it a bit per feeding and maybe offer another bottle before bed, though I don't want to over do it either.


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## ksalvagno

If you can, weigh her daily for a while. She should gain a minimum of half a pound per day. Adjust number of bottles as needed.


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## Lstein

Going to weigh her tonight, and she has a vet apt on Thursday (soonest that I could get in).


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## NyGoatMom

They are adorable...congrats!!


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## Lstein

So I tried to weigh her last night but I doubt the scales' accuracy as I weighed myself 3 times and it was different but averaging them out it looked like she was probably 40#s. Going to grab a new scale after work though. Tried offering her 3 cups of milk this morning and she stopped right at two cups :shrug: so I'll maybe try it as a third bottle instead.


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## ksalvagno

With llamas and alpacas, small frequent feedings are better. You are better off to offer more bottles to them.


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## Lstein

She did take a third bottle right before I went to bed, chugged the whole thing.


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## Lstein

So I know I'm resurrecting one of my old threads here, but just thought this information is/can be useful to some people. (and because it came up today)

Ebony grew up and is now quite large and healthy. But went to the dark side this fall.

This:


Lstein said:


> " If by some miracle they survive, they will develop behavior problems as their hormones kick in. *I mean behavior problems so serious they might kill you or a child.* An orphaned cria needs proper nutrition, an IgG and possibly a plasma transfer, and needs to be raised WITH other appropriate llamas - *not bonded to humans*. Be assured *this is not a job for a newbie*. And *certainly not a job for those without appropriate herd members to teach that cria how to be a llama.* Think I'm kidding? Read this and *believe it*!"


Is all true.

She is now quite mean, and tries to "dominate" me whenever I go into her pen. Even though she was raised with another llama. She charges at me and tries to stomp/get me down. I've had to beat her off me with a stick or whatever I have on hand a couple times.

I'm going to have to put her down, is the only thing I can really think of. I don't want to send her to someone else and risk her hurting someone. Plus there's not really any rescue places for them here. I haven't yet because she's out in my pasture where there aren't people at the moment. (plus she was my baby for a long time, it still hurts a bit) Also was still kind of trying to think of another solution.

So just a word of advice....take the advice and pass. Reading through this, one can quite clearly see how I justified this to myself; even while knowing the warning signs and even ignoring advice in this own thread (sorry Karen!). Then when I actually seen the young baby, all hope was lost. Now I'm stuck with a dangerous problem and a rough decision.


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## ksalvagno

Lstein said:


> So I know I'm resurrecting one of my old threads here, but just thought this information is/can be useful to some people. (and because it came up today)
> 
> Ebony grew up and is now quite large and healthy. But went to the dark side this fall.
> 
> This:
> 
> Is all true.
> 
> She is now quite mean, and tries to "dominate" me whenever I go into her pen. Even though she was raised with another llama. She charges at me and tries to stomp/get me down. I've had to beat her off me with a stick or whatever I have on hand a couple times.
> 
> I'm going to have to put her down, is the only thing I can really think of. I don't want to send her to someone else and risk her hurting someone. Plus there's not really any rescue places for them here. I haven't yet because she's out in my pasture where there aren't people at the moment. (plus she was my baby for a long time, it still hurts a bit) Also was still kind of trying to think of another solution.
> 
> So just a word of advice....take the advice and pass. Reading through this, one can quite clearly see how I justified this to myself; even while knowing the warning signs and even ignoring advice in this own thread (sorry Karen!). Then when I actually seen the young baby, all hope was lost. Now I'm stuck with a dangerous problem and a rough decision.


Put her in the freezer. The meat is wonderful.


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