# Nigerian Dwarf - Not Producing but Should Be



## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

Hi...my name is Hope. 
We have 2 Nigerian Dwarf does, 4 chickens and 2 dogs in our family and everyone gets along quite well together. : )

We got our does at 4 weeks old (bottle-babies) and they just turned 2 years old this June and July. We had them bred, for the first time, last December and they gave us some really nice babies that sold before they were weaned. The babies were dam-raised for 9 ½ weeks before they went to their new homes. 

Here's my question...
One of the does raised two very healthy, very 'chunky' babies. When the babies left, she gave between 12 and 13 ounces of milk at each milking (6A/6P) for the first two days...which I thought was a bit on the 'light' side but, not sure since this is her first freshening. Since then (about a week) she has progressively given less and less and is now giving 4 - 5 ounces at each milking. Her udder is never tight and full feeling and her teats "deflate"/empty quite quickly. I thought she was drying herself up since the babies are gone but, was told that is not possible if she is still being milked 2x/day. Soooooooo...now I'm thinking she might be 'self-nursing' (?) but, I have not actually seen her do it. That would explain why she never has much milk at milking time. The other doe's babies left yesterday morning. She gave about 4 ½ ounces last night and almost 16 ounces this morning. 

I'd sure appreciate hearing any thoughts, theories or suggestions. : )

~ Hope ~


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## Alpine Crazy (Jul 14, 2019)

HMNS said:


> Hi...my name is Hope.
> We have 2 Nigerian Dwarf does, 4 chickens and 2 dogs in our family and everyone gets along quite well together. : )
> 
> We got our does at 4 weeks old (bottle-babies) and they just turned 2 years old this June and July. We had them bred, for the first time, last December and they gave us some really nice babies that sold before they were weaned. The babies were dam-raised for 9 ½ weeks before they went to their new homes.
> ...


What do you feed her?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

What are you feeding?

I'd tape her teats to see if she is nursing.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Alpine Crazy said:


> What do you feed her?


LOL we typed this at the same time.


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## Alpine Crazy (Jul 14, 2019)

mariarose said:


> LOL we typed this at the same time.


Haha yeah that's the first question that came to mind.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Welcome to the forum!:cowboy:
I have no first hand knowledge to share, just believe in the advice you receive from the answers that you give. The questions are not judgemental, they are for informational purposes.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

What is her diet?

What are her FAMACHA scores?

Have you gotten/can you get a fecal test?


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

Alpine Crazy said:


> What do you feed her?


Hi...
I am feeding her Purina Goat Feed 2x/day and free-choice Alfalfa/Orchard Grass Hay (Standlee from Tractor Supply) plus...free-choice Loose Minerals and Baking Soda and all the clean water she can drink.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> What is her diet?
> 
> What are her FAMACHA scores?
> 
> Have you gotten/can you get a fecal test?


Hi...
Her FAMACHA is great! Nice and Healthy Pink. She had a fecal done a couple of weeks ago and it came back clear...no signs of parasites or cocci.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Hi, welcome to The Goat Spot, glad you joined. The members on here experienced with milking will be more than glad to answer your questions and help you figure this out.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

HMNS said:


> Hi...
> I am feeding her Purina Goat Feed 2x/day and free-choice Alfalfa/Orchard Grass Hay (Standlee from Tractor Supply) plus...free-choice Loose Minerals and Baking Soda and all the clean water she can drink.


Are you saying your hay is Standlee brand? Do you mean that they are pellets?

What minerals?

May we see photos of her?

Don't feed baking soda


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

mariarose said:


> What are you feeding?
> 
> I'd tape her teats to see if she is nursing.


Hmmm. I would be worried that she would eat the tape off whether she was self-nursing or not...unless I put a "cone of shame" on her maybe.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Very good, just a few more things.
I'd take away the Baking Soda and replace it with a salt lick. TSC sells them. Much better for her.

What is the level of protein in your feed? (I don't have a label for that) Protein makes milk.

It's wonderful you are feeding loose minerals. Which ones are they?

What is her temperature?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

HMNS said:


> unless I put a "cone of shame" on her maybe.


No, don't do that.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> your hay is Standlee brand? Do you mean that they are pellets?


Standlee also makes a compressed hay bale. My TSC sells them.


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## Alpine Crazy (Jul 14, 2019)

HMNS said:


> Hi...
> I am feeding her Purina Goat Feed 2x/day and free-choice Alfalfa/Orchard Grass Hay (Standlee from Tractor Supply) plus...free-choice Loose Minerals and Baking Soda and all the clean water she can drink.


How much feed do you give her?


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

APOLOGIES for not responding. I tried but, my reply was blocked by the website...maybe because I am new. I am feeding both of our does a 'heavy' cup of grain in the AM and again in the PM. I have been keeping daily milk production records on both does and they seem to be producing about the same amount. Both does are giving a daily total (AM + PM together) of between 15 and 20 ounces each.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

PS: I was able to figure out that she is NOT self-nursing. I painted her teats with food-coloring after milking her, figuring I would see blue coloring on her mouth or the teats would show if anyone had been 'using' them. Nothing...the teats were still painted and she didn't have any food-coloring on her face or mouth so...yea!


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Very good, just a few more things.
> I'd take away the Baking Soda and replace it with a salt lick. TSC sells them. Much better for her.
> 
> What is the level of protein in your feed? (I don't have a label for that) Protein makes milk.
> ...


Hi Mariarose...
I apologize for not responding sooner. I tried but, kept getting blocked by the website for some reason. (maybe because I am new...?)
Anyway...the protein level in the feed is 16% + they have access to alfalfa/orchard grass hay 24/7. I have pulled the Baking Soda and replaced it with a Himalayan Salt lick from TSC. I am curious about the Salt vs. Baking Soda tho'...can you tell me why they should be getting the salt and not the Baking Soda..? I have never heard anything negative about the Baking Soda except that it shouldn't be given to male goats. Thanks!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Whatever the issue was, I'm glad it has been resolved. The site went through a bit of a bitchy glitchy episode recently. Perhaps your trouble posting had something to do with that.

I'll gladly talk to you about salt vs BS.
Short story is that no goat should constantly need a buffering compound. They make it themselves unless you are giving it to them, but then they can't make it when they need it. The goats will take the baking soda when they need salt, not just when they need a buffering compound. If they have enough sodium in their system from the baking soda, then they may not eat enough regular minerals and regular salt. And finally, salt, especially the sea salt lick you have replace the BS with, has many more beneficial interactions in the body than just plain sodium has.

IMO, you made the right decision.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

... and WelCome from me, too!  Even if I cannot add any advice this time ...


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

So, you may have to add more food. Can you give alfalfa pellets in a 1:1 ratio to your grain concentrate?

Which minerals are you feeding?

What are their temps? I ask because an infection that they are trying to fight off can make them not make milk. The body can only do so much.

Can you increase their water consumption?


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I feed my Nigerians slightly less than 1 quart of high protein (17%) grain plus a yogurt scoop (6 oz size) of alfalfa pellets twice a day as we milk. They are currently giving between 3-4 cups of milk per milking. So maybe you are not giving enough grain for them to produce well. Try increasing the amount of grain over the course of 3-4 days (so they don't get upset tummies) and see what happens. 

As a side note: My girls were only giving me around 2 cups per milking for YEARS until I added in alfalfa this year. You will be amazed what a feed change can do!!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

What she said.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

Thank you Mariarose! 
I had never read or heard about salt over BS or that goats produce their own buffering compound w/o the need for BS. 'Everyone' (including the breeder/dairy that we got them from) always says BS but, your explanation makes perfect sense and I will not offer BS to them anymore. The more I learn about goats makes me realize that I have barely scratched the surface and I have so much more to learn.

It seems like the more people interfere with the natural way of things, the more un-balanced things get sometimes. 

Here's a couple of pics of my girls with their babies. This was their FF...the babies were sold. I weaned them at 10 weeks and have been milking the does 2x/day since.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> ... and WelCome from me, too!  Even if I cannot add any advice this time ...


Thanks Troller! I appreciate the welcome! : )


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

mariarose said:


> So, you may have to add more food. Can you give alfalfa pellets in a 1:1 ratio to your grain concentrate?
> 
> Which minerals are you feeding?
> 
> ...



Temps are normal...FAMACHA is nice and healthy pink...no parasites in fecal.
I give them Purina Goat Minerals (loose). 
They are both pretty "sleek" (read: chunky) and did not drop any weight while pregnant, raising their babies or since being milked 2x/day. I am hesitant to increase their grain ration since their body condition is great (don't want to go overboard on concentrates). I had been feeding 1 ½ cups at each feeding but, one of my does always left about ¼ cup in her pan so, I cut the grain back a bit. They were wasting a lot of hay but, not nearly so much now that the grain ration is a bit smaller.
As far as the alfalfa pellets go...I have not tried that yet. I can definitely pick up a bag and give it to them with their grain while I'm milking.
They drink quite a bit of water. They have a 2 gallon bucket that gets filled twice daily. They don't drink as much water during the day (only about a gallon) when they are outside but, they drink about ¾ of the bucket at night.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

groovyoldlady said:


> I feed my Nigerians slightly less than 1 quart of high protein (17%) grain plus a yogurt scoop (6 oz size) of alfalfa pellets twice a day as we milk. They are currently giving between 3-4 cups of milk per milking. So maybe you are not giving enough grain for them to produce well. Try increasing the amount of grain over the course of 3-4 days (so they don't get upset tummies) and see what happens.
> 
> As a side note: My girls were only giving me around 2 cups per milking for YEARS until I added in alfalfa this year. You will be amazed what a feed change can do!!!


Hi Groovyoldlady...
I haven't tried the alfalfa pellets yet...I didn't think it was necessary because they munch on alfalfa hay all day long but, will pick some up and give it a shot.

My girls make enough milk for us (husband and myself) so I am not complaining as such BUT, since they come from some 'big-whoop', 1000+ lbs. milk/305 days bloodlines, I am surprised they aren't producing more. I am getting an average of 8-10 ounces per milking from each of our does.

I've been told that it could just be that this is their first time and that they will produce more the next freshening. (what are your thoughts..?)


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

HMNS said:


> Thanks Troller! I appreciate the welcome! : )





Trollmor said:


> ... and WelCome from me, too!  Even if I cannot add any advice this time ...


Hi Trollmor...
Auto-correct changed your name to "Troller" when I replied earlier...sorry about that. : )


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Thank you for the pics. That's what I love about Christmas Gifts and Nigerian Dwarves. The gorgeous wrapping!

When goats are given a great deal of grain/concentrates, a couple of things happen that has given rise to the idea of needing baking soda. Let me explain.

A goat's natural food, for which they are ideally suited, are the leaves and twigs/small branches/bark of trees, shrubs, brush, fibrous weeds. This diet take tremendous chewing and cudding time. During all this chewing time is when the goat makes the buffering compounds.

When we change the goat's diet for our own needs to concentrates that come to the goat already chewed (by machinery) then the chewing time is cut tremendously while at the same time filling the rumen with food that is much more rich and sugary than the goat has evolved to deal with. For some, SOME, operations, goats benefit from having the buffering compound supplied for them. 

But hardly any of us keep our goats in this intensive unnatural way. We feed more hay than anything, a food that requires a great deal of chewing. We only feed enough concentrates to accomplish our needs (like you needing more milk) So the energy of the concentrates is used up, and the chewing time is still significant.

But here's the thing. That true idea that baking soda is necessary FOR A FEW somehow became a truism for all goat owners. Because someone gave too much grain because they ran out of hay and thought you can just switch one for the other... The goat got sick... the owner saved it with that age old remedy that had always taken care of THEIR upset tummies... and voila!

It happens... because as a species, we don't do nuance very well.

So, I hope this was a slightly more helpful explanation than I gave before. 

Do give your goat a necessary drench of BS should she ever get into something that is going to bloat her, but you aren't helping her by letting her help herself to something that prevents normal functions.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yeah, I wouldn't add more grain right away, that's why I suggested the alfalfa pellets.

Yes, FFs will not give as much as they will in other freshenings.

You seem to be doing everything right (except I'd add alfalfa pellets in a 1:1 ratio with your feed). So I guess I'm out of ideas. I'm sorry I can't help more.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

mariarose said:


> Thank you for the pics. That's what I love about Christmas Gifts and Nigerian Dwarves. The gorgeous wrapping!


Pfrrh!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

HMNS said:


> Hi Trollmor...
> Auto-correct changed your name to "Troller" when I replied earlier...sorry about that. : )


I understood that.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

They are first fresheners and you are getting only a so-so amount of milk. Not all are great producers. Are they registered?


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't add more grain right away, that's why I suggested the alfalfa pellets.
> 
> Yes, FFs will not give as much as they will in other freshenings.
> 
> You seem to be doing everything right (except I'd add alfalfa pellets in a 1:1 ratio with your feed). So I guess I'm out of ideas. I'm sorry I can't help more.


You have helped me so much already with the information you gave. Thank you so much! 

I will give the alfalfa pellets a shot and..we'll see if that gives us any increases.

Not sure if this would have any impact on production but, gonna run it by you...
In their current pasture rotation, they have a clear view of our neighbor's backyard. I can look at them any time when they're out and know if there is any activity at the neighbor's. They both stand on their tree stumps and watch everything. (so, so nosy...ha-ha) I told my husband that it's a good thing the neighbors aren't a paranoid bunch or these girls would make them crazy.  That being said, according to my records, their individual production has gone from 19+ ounces (Daily Total) to 16+ ounces for today's total. Too much stuff to watch and run around and act crazy about...maybe..?


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

IHEARTGOATS said:


> They are first fresheners and you are getting only a so-so amount of milk. Not all are great producers. Are they registered?


Hi IHEARTGOATS...
Yes, they are registered but, you are right...not all offspring inherit the 'magic'.  We're OK with that because they make enough for us. Admittedly tho', I was expecting a bit more out of them. I plan to milk them until either, their production is down so much that it's not worth it or until we have them bred in December. I know you don't have to let them dry up until 60 before they kid but, we're giving them their entire pregnancy off...they have enough to do (my opinion) growing babies and staying sleek and healthy.  This year was our FF too and we had so much fun with those babies!!


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

The whole baking soda issue started many years ago when giving baking soda to dairy CATTLE was just being a "thing". People who had dairy GOATs heard about it and decided that they had to do it, too. However, dairy cattle are fed a very high acidic diet with huge amounts of grain whereas goats are not. Goats can eat enough roughage to buffer what bit of acidic feeds they consume whereas cattle just can't eat enough roughage to buffer the high acid foods they are fed and develop acidosis.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Well, if they are the kinds of girls to be fascinated by the world around them, they are the kinds of girls to be bored to tears if there's nothing to see. Bored goats are troublesome, quarrelsome goats. I think you are lucky to have so much built in entertainment for them at no cost or bother to yourself.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

lottsagoats1 said:


> The whole baking soda issue started many years ago when giving baking soda to dairy CATTLE was just being a "thing". People who had dairy GOATs heard about it and decided that they had to do it, too. However, dairy cattle are fed a very high acidic diet with huge amounts of grain whereas goats are not. Goats can eat enough roughage to buffer what bit of acidic feeds they consume whereas cattle just can't eat enough roughage to buffer the high acid foods they are fed and develop acidosis.


Thank you Lottsagoats1...
I have learned so much in this post and look forward to posting more as I go along. I love learning all of the 'nitty-gritty-sciencey' details about stuff.


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## Nigerian Goat Dads (8 mo ago)

Hi HMNS. Just wondered how you got on with the second and third years? Did your ladies give you more milk?


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