# Help me with conformation



## fishin816

I everyone!!
I am learning about goat conformation now. Briskest, toplines, attachments. Could you give me a rundown of how you guys judge conformation? Could you attach a pic of your goats and how you judge their conformation and their pros and cons. I would like to compare them to my goats. So I would just need to know how you guys do it. Thanks. I need to know this stuff because we are starting showing next year. Thanks!!!


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## clementegal

Are you judging dairy goats or meat goats?


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## fishin816

Nigerian Dwarfs and Mini Nubains to be exact. So yes, dairy


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## Emzi00

Oooooohh(insert evil laugh here) 
Okaay  So.. where to start....
You want good blending throughout(neck into withers and brisket, chest floor into heart girth, etc) 
Uphill stance, withers higher than the hind end
You want good depth of body  and a nice long body. Also good width(hips, pins, etc)
Rump should be long and flat
Want them to have a dairy look, long lean dairy neck
Front legs should be straight, not bowed. Hind legs should not be posty nor sickle, but more in between
Pasterns should be strong(short and upright)
Also want a good spring of rib, flat ribs and stuff..

I'll come back tomorrow and finish up, I'll have some pictures and links and even more


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## fishin816

Emzi00 said:


> Oooooohh(insert evil laugh here)  Okaay  So.. where to start.... You want good blending throughout(neck into withers and brisket, chest floor into heart girth, etc) Uphill stance, withers higher than the hind end You want good depth of body  and a nice long body. Also good width(hips, pins, etc) Rump should be long and flat Want them to have a dairy look, long lean dairy neck Front legs should be straight, not bowed. Hind legs should not be posty nor sickle, but more in between Pasterns should be strong(short and upright) Also want a good spring of rib, flat ribs and stuff.. I'll come back tomorrow and finish up, I'll have some pictures and links and even more


Sounds good Emma. Please attach images


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## Scottyhorse

I'll give you a rundown when i'm done eating


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## fishin816

Scottyhorse said:


> I'll give you a rundown when i'm done eating


Are you done eating yet?


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## Scottyhorse

:lol: Sorry, my mom made me get off my laptop.

Ok.... So judging for bucks and does are pretty much the same. The basics that you want are: 
Good blending throughout (good flow, general appearance) 
Level topline (back)
Level rump
Sharp, tight withers (shoulder blades)
Strong Pasterns (upright and short-ish)
Lots of rear leg angulation
Long neck
Good brisket extention
Body capacity and depth and length

Udder:
large capacity
high front and rear attatchments
smooth blending in the fore udder
good medial
teats are long and large for easy milking
1/3 in front of leg, 1/3 hidden by leg, and 1/3 behind leg
teats are placed correctly.

Take a look at www.oldmountainfarm.com They have Nigerians, I really like their goats. I am getting permission from the owner to post some pictures of their goats for better examples. In the meantime, here are some diagrams. I'll get some more in a min.


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## Scottyhorse

A good link: http://goatdairylibrary.org/conformation.html
ADGA Scorecard: http://www.adga.org/index.php?optio...244:artshowscard&catid=87:cat-shows&Itemid=97
http://www.andda.org/breedstandard.html
http://miniaturedairygoats.com/Breed standards/mininubian_standard.htm


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## Scottyhorse

Still trying to find this one really good diagram, but post some pictures of your goats (or PM me) and I can judge them for you.


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## fishin816

I PM'd you.


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## Sylvie

Here's another another image showing the parts of the dairy goat:


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## Emzi00

Oye, sorry to leave you hanging. 
Sydney pretty much covered it :thumbup:
I would really study the scorecard, it's what a judge looks at. If you have any questions on that, then ask and I can explain 
Let's see what diagrams and pictures I can dig up 
If you want another opinion on your does, feel free to PM me


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## Scottyhorse

Yeah, score card is important. Not all judges go by it.... But they're SUPPOSED to. Also, study the parts of the goats, know everything about your goat, and know conformation well for showmanship. During showmanship, they judge your knowlegde and handling skills.


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## Emzi00

This chart is pretty helpful, 25 is what you want


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## Emzi00

This doe isn't/wasn't mine (hope that you don't mind me using Wailea as an example Lacie)
I love this doe, awesome udder, lots and lots and lots of depth, very dairy, nice strong topline, I really have trouble finding any faults. If I could have a whole herd of does just like her, I'd be in heaven. This is a great example of a dairy doe.


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## fishin816

What do out mean when you say lots of depth, or angularty.


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## Emzi00

Well, depth, look at the barrel of the goat. See the difference between the one I posted earlier and this one? Guess I'm not too good at explaining it, hope you can understand. I'll let Sydney answer the angularity, since she was the one to bring it up


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## fishin816

Emzi00 said:


> Well, depth, look at the barrel of the goat. See the difference between the one I posted earlier and this one? Guess I'm not too good at explaining it, hope you can understand. I'll let Sydney answer the angularity, since she was the one to bring it up


Barrel is around the brisket right? Sorry in wearing you down wih this but I would like to judge my goats. Sydney, could ou help me with the angularity?


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## Emzi00

fishin816 said:


> Barrel is around the brisket right? Sorry in wearing you down wih this but I would like to judge my goats. Sydney, could ou help me with the angularity?


 Okay, pretty sure Sydney posted this chart thing already, but anyways, brisket is in front of the front end, the neck goes into it, so the barrel isn't around there, it's the stomach area further back 
Don't try learning everything at once, it takes a while to get it 

Oh, and I'd like to say that pretty much everything I know about conformation, I learned from Lacie.  So if there's something I can't answer, go bug her.


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## Emzi00

And this is a nice example of a buck. See how long and uphill his body is? That's what you're looking for


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## Scottyhorse

That's pretty much an ideal buck. Rump is long and level. He stands uphill and has a loooooong body. Nice brisket extention, angular legs, and nice body capacity. All you would want


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## Scottyhorse

Ok, took this picture and edited a little. So I circled where angularity is found, and lined the exact spots. The next is my Nigerian buck, who isn't super angular.... But he was stretching  Just wanted to give you an example of "Posty" legs and less angularity


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## Scottyhorse

Here's a picture of my doe, Goodnight South Carolina, at age 10  She's drying up in this picture so her udder isn't super impressive. But I will critique her so you can get an idea of what you look for... 

Pros:
Lots of body capacity and depth
Nice front end assembly
Smoothly blended
Sharp withers and shoulders
Nice brisket extension (IRL she has awesome brisket! She wasn't happy about pictures  )
Good angularity
Neck and rump are long
Wide through the hips and pins

Cons:
Rump is a bit steep
Topline could be a tad more level
Pasterns are weak (some BoSe would pop them up I bet, and it could be age :lol: )
Toes out in back

Overall she is a nice doe, especially for her age! Would love to have seen her at two or three 
While showing her, I would want to pinch her back in front of her hips to make her topline look more level.


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## nchen7

Cade, I think it would help you greatly if you posted a few pictures of your goats set up (doesn't have to be perfect). I found posting pictures of your own animals and having these lovely people critique them is the best way to learn. it's hard going from a diagram and pictures of other goats to comparing your own.


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## kccjer

Why do you want that uphill thing?


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## Cedar Point Kikos

kccjer said:


> Why do you want that uphill thing?


I don't understand that either...what's so good about that?


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## nchen7

professionals, correct me if i'm wrong, but from what I've read uphill it allows a doe to have better body capacity, and also helps to support and distribute weight on the front legs better.


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## kccjer

How would it help support weight on the FRONT...the weight would go toward the back wouldn't it? If you get down on your hands and knees...stand square that way and then raise up onto your fingertips...weight will shift to the back


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## nchen7

yes, but goats are made to climb mountains. I would imagine it's easier to get up/down a hill when your back end is lower to the ground than front end. if you were to clamour up and down a hill, it would be easier to crouch on your legs and use your arms to move around than to have your legs high up in the air and have your weight on your arms....

again, i'm no professional, this is just what I've concluded from my own reading on the subject matter.... hopefully someone with judging experience will chime in.


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## kccjer

Hmmmm...that does kinda make sense. But....if you google pics of mountain goats they are not built that way.


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## TDG-Farms

here is a link to this year ADGA national winners.

http://www.adga.org/pages_adga/nationalshow/2013/results/ResultsMain.htm


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## TDG-Farms

A goat carries more weight on the front legs then the rear. Thus when you try to push a goat from the back and they end up doing a hand stand


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

You want a level rump, and uphill/upstanding stature for easier kidding, better drainage at kidding time (fluids and after birth come out better), larger udder, stronger udder attachments, deeper bodies, weight distribution, etc


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## Scottyhorse

I am honestly not quite sure why they want them built uphill, maybe easier kidding?

Also, I don't really like the grand champion ND doe :laugh: She looks too big and bulky to me. Especially her front end. I like the reserve champion a bit better.


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## Scottyhorse

Well Lacie posted at the same time as me :lol:


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## nchen7

the professionals to the rescue! thanks Dave and Lacie.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

No problem 

I can see why they picked the champion nd over the reserve, for several reasons.


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## Scottyhorse

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> No problem
> 
> I can see why they picked the champion nd over the reserve, for several reasons.


Well yeah, but something about her build bugs me :shrug:


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## fishin816

nchen7 said:


> Cade, I think it would help you greatly if you posted a few pictures of your goats set up (doesn't have to be perfect). I found posting pictures of your own animals and having these lovely people critique them is the best way to learn. it's hard going from a diagram and pictures of other goats to comparing your own.


Sydney graciously judged them from my website. So I have a pretty good idea on their conformation. If Sydney judged them right.


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## fishin816

Here is a topline pic of Gypsy.









Gypsy's sire, Gypsy Moon Sudoko (photo curtosey of Twin Willows Farm)









Gypsy's dam. Rosasharn Esterlina. (Photo curtosey of Rwin Willows Farm)









Gypsy's FF udder. How are her attachments? Photo curtosey of Twin Willows Farm









FF udder. Photo curtosey of Twin willows farm.









What do ya guys think of her and her family?


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## Scottyhorse

fishin816 said:


> Sydney graciously judged them from my website. So I have a pretty good idea on their conformation. If Sydney judged them right.


*gasp* Of COURSEI judged them right :lol: I still want to see them next spring/summer clipped and in milk   I did the best I could with the pictures available!  Hehe


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## fishin816

Here is her topline


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Pretty nice goats in her family


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## fishin816

Here is Cocoa. Definetly best milker in the herd.

















Gypsy clipped. Photo curtosey of Parrish Farms


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## Scottyhorse

Not bad for a FF udder. Medial looks pretty good. Would like to see tighter attatchments but I have seen a lot of does end up with better looking attatchments on their 2nd and 3rd freshening because their udder is filled more. On their FF they usually don't produce as much milk so their udder isn't quite as nice as it can be. She does have a fairly smooth blending fore udder. Teats wing out but size and shape aren't bad (for a ND) She has the possibility for a nice udder.


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## Scottyhorse

Gypsy looks nice clipped  
I'm not going to critique them ALL again but I will tag along and see what others say  I can copy/paste my critiques though if anyone wants to see them.


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