# kids all dying! Desperate for help!



## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

HI folks. I'm new here but I promise not to be one of those guys who asks questions and then disappears. I desperately need to be part of this community because I own some goats but really know almost nothing about them and I'm in a desperate situation right now. Please help.
I have a little mini-farm and have 5 goats (2 girl, 2 in tact boys, 1 cut boy). They are between 1 and 3 years old. They have a 3.5 acre pasture with good grass. I also feed them pelleted goat food from tractor supply. I have a goat mineral block available to them all the time. I give them worm medicine every 6 months as directed. All my adult goats look very healthy- good weight, nice coats, active, etc. All that being said, I have some horrific problem that has literally almost brought me to tears.... last year 4 out of the 5 babies born (1 had triplets, 1 had twins) either were born dead or died the first day. The other couldn't stand for 2 days but finally got ok. I hoped it was just the cold weather (though it was just in the mid 20's at night and 40's by day). This year, I had 2 sets of twins....2 were dead before I even knew they were born (meaning they were either born dead or died within 6 hours of birth) and the other set had 1 born dead and the other born ALMOST dead....the extremely week one couldn't stand up at all for 3 full days!! His front legs bent up under him and his back legs splayed out behind him. SOmehow, in spite of this, he was still able to nurse (thanks to a very patient mom). I gave him drench and extra colostrum a few times a day, and ended up tying his back legs up under him for about 30 hours. When I untied them he almost imediately stood for the first time. He is now a week old and is actually doing great and looks like a normal week old....but he went through he#* and almost died like the other 3 this year and 4 last year.
So my 2 year mortality rate is 7 dead out of 9 born....that is just heart breaking. Worse yet, I have no idea what is wrong. Let me offer a couple other items for you to consider-
1.) INBREEDING - While I've read that inbreeding isn't a likely cause of all my deaths, you should know that both of my females, both years, were bred by a either a son or a brother. I know- it seems just wrong and I'm not proud of it but still wanted you all to know the truth in case it matters.
2.) COCCIDIOSIS - Last year I had several chickens die and I sent one to the state lab for a necropsy. Turns out it had coccidiosis. I treated the chickens and haven't had a single death since then and its been 2 years. I know its likely that you all will focus on this is my problem- and may well be and thats why I want you to know about it- but I've had lots of baby chickens since then with no problems and no treatments. I also haven't seen any symptoms of any kind in any of my adult goats- neither when I had the active virus or in the 2 years since. My only problem is with new-borns dying (in crazy %'s). But again....maybe it is coci. 
3.) DIARRHEA - the only symptom of ill heath- big or small- that I have ever seen in my adults is occasional messy tail (from diarrhea). But it usually just lasts a day or two and goes away without any treatment. Again, I don't know if its related to all my kid deaths but I wanted you all to have all the details. 
4.) Floppy Kid Sydrome or goat "polio". From what I've read, the kids that do survive have symptoms that seem to match "floppy kid syndrome" and or what I've seen referred to as "polio" but I don't know nearly enough to know if that really is what they have, and even if it is I don't know what to do about that.
I know this is an extremely long post, and I'd like to say thank-you in advance for anyone who had a strong enough desire to help me and my goats to read through all of this. I truly don't have a clue what is wrong or what to do about it or what to try. All my kids are done for this year, but I can't continue loosing and almost loosing all my kids every year. BTW..the temperature this year was in the 50's so that wasnt an issue. Its too late to send a body for necropsy. That was my plan-but the body of my last kid this year was taken by a dog before I could package it up.

Again, I'll be here for any and all responses and will forever be grateful. Thank-you.
Kevin


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## ArborGoats (Jan 24, 2013)

I would be concerned about some of the diseases that can cause dead kids or abortions.can you send a kid out for necropsy?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I am so sorry for what you have been through.

First thing is nutrition - mineral blocks do not give goats the minerals they need most of the time, and the girls when pregnant need plenty of calcium, which means giving them alfalfa hay or alfalfa pellets. 

It could also be that you are not deworming for the right thing. I can tell you are doing your best deworming but unfortunately with goats it's a little tricky. Worms can get resistant to dewormers really quickly - so you have to run a fecal (test the poop) and see what worms you are dealing with before you deworm. That way you know you are treating the right thing. It could be that even though you have done a good job deworming, they may not have been getting the right dewormer.

Secondly I actually wonder if you have Chlamydia in your herd ... usually that presents itself with miscarriages but can also cause weak kids at birth.

Did the mothers produce any milk for the babies? Babies need their noses clean off right after birth, and then they need colostrum in them as soon as possible.

:hug: Hopefully things will get better for you very soon ... so sorry ...


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I would be very concerned that they are selenium deficient. This can cause weakness and newborn deaths. Have they ever been given supplemental selenium - vitamin e ? Either in the gel form or Bo-Se Rx from vet? I also would test for coccidia when you run fecals. 2x a year worming for me does not yield good results. Give a LOOSE mineral for goats (TSC makes a nice brand) - goats cannot get what they need from a block and make sure they have enough calcium in their diet. You can get alfalfa pellets if your hay quality is poor to make up the difference. 
Also, copper. If you have pics of your goats we may be able to tell a little about mineral deficiency that may have contributed to your problem.
I am so sorry about your loss. Very hard to lose your babies. We are all here to help!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Also sounds like you have a big copper and selenium deficiency problem. The weak kids are a big sign of selenium deficiency. I'm guessing they are iodine deficient as well. Does definitely need calcium.

Sorry for your losses.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I think that your issue is likely a selenium deficiency or an abortion disease.

I'd start by going to your vet for a Rx for Bo-Se ( injectable selenium) or get the selenium gel. I'd also put out loose minerals for them free choice.

As far as breeding to brothers or sons goats don't have the same morals that humans do. It's fine to do here and there just remember that with inbreeding you will amplify both good and bad traits. It's not bad. Now I wouldn't breed surviving kids to their brothers since they are already inbred. You'd likely get more defects in that following generation. Depends on what your plans are for the goats on who you breed to.

Not a bad idea to check fecals and determine if you have any issues there and treat accordingly. There isn't one dewormer that kills everything. ( I don't think this is the issue though as the kids were born dead)

If with better nutrition you lose kids again I would send a necropsy in to see if you can get an answer.

Sorry for your losses. It sounds quite traumatic.


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

*THank-you doesn't say enough*

As I read through all the above responses, I was absolutely moved by not only the very helpful information, but the expressions of general concern and sympathy. I half expected to get a bit of a lecture about having goats without knowing more about how to properly care for them- and to be honest I would have had to accept that criticism. I genuinely love my goats to death and treat them as beloved pets and do the best I can, but it is true that I don't know as much as I should about proper goat husbandry. Its part of why I'm here. But to have several of you offer condolences along with great information really meant a lot and tells me you guys love your goats as much as I do- mine aren't just decorations or a source of income or meat (not that there is anything wrong with that at all, just saying mine happen to only be pets and I want the best for them in spite of my obvious ignorance on how to provide that). 
Anyway, in terms of your actual diagnostics and information, I think you have really given me some great information to further investigate. I had already read a good deal about possible Vitamin E deficiency and many of the symptoms associated with that problem DID seem to match the problem I am having of all my kids being born extremely week and usually dying. The good news is that I suppose that is a fairly easy thing to address so I will absolutely start providing Vit E and selineum (same thing?) along with other nutritional supplements. I'll also get some alfalpha as suggested. In fact, I'm going to take every single thing suggested here very seriously and take steps to address each one- from nutritional supplements to improved worming techniques/medications to exploring the proposed diseases.
To answer the questions about getting an autopsy, I had planned to do that if one more died, then when it did die I laid it in my yard and was going to package it up to send off later that day but a dog or something carried it off! my fault!
One question I have is in regards to the replies that advocated getting a fecal . I assume that will require a vet, is that correct? (is there an on-line facility that does those tests by chance). I must admit that I have been a bit reluctant to involve a vet due to the very high costs involved. Please don't read that as my saying I'm too cheap to provide proper medical care for my goats. But the one time I did take a goat to a vet it cost double the value of the goat and really wasn't at all helpful. So I am a bit reluctant to start spending hundreds of dollars on my inexpensive goats, especially when I'm not sure it will lead to a proper diagnoses. Its also a pretty big ordeal for me to take a goat to a vet- I have to borrow a truck, drive 30 miles, etc. Again, I'm not saying I won't. I get that if I'm going to own animals I need to be able to do whatever is needed to care for them. BTW....on the fecal, if it does require a vet, would he let me collect a stool sample or would the vet want to see the animal and collect it himself?
THanks again for all your input....I look forward to hearing from anyone else who sees my post above over the coming days and has any other thoughts on why I keep having babies die and/or be born very, very weak.
THanks again. 
Kevin


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Fecals are usually run by a vet, but very inexpensive. Most expensive one I've paid for is $20, and it was good to know what I was dealing with.  Usually you collect the sample in a plastic bag (as fresh as possible) and run it over to a nearby vet. (If you can't get it to him right away, keep in a fridge, I believe).

I can tell how much you care for your animals - all of us started somewhere. Sometimes the learning period can be very hard. My first year breeding, I mistakenly removed alfalfa pellets from my pregnant girls' diets, which was their only source of calcium. The result were two difficult kiddings - one of which resulted in a stillborn kid. These things are tragic, but we learn from them. We can only do the best that we know how - and that's why we came on here, to learn.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

There is an online site you can mail your fecal samples into. I can't remember the name of the place but I think the link is on this forum somewhere. I'll keep looking.


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## jscharling (Jul 10, 2014)

So sorry to hear about your loss :-( 

As far as a fecal goes, it is something that you can usually collect at home and take to a vet to have examined. Usually they don't require you to bring your goat to them for them to collect a sample. 

There very well may be a lab you can send a fecal sample to but I don't know of one, hopefully someone here who has chimes in.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Here is the lab you can send your fecal samples to:

http://www.midamericaagresearch.net/


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Hey Kevin-


Goats have a STEEP learning curve, and there is an endless amount of information we all have to learn! None of us know everything and we're all continually learning. The fact that you're here asking for help shows how much you love your goats. And really, who could help but love them? You're getting great advice here.

Plus, trust me, we all understand not being able to shell out cash to vets that often don't know anything about goats. Fecals are cheap and easy though, ours does them for $10. Getting that done will give you a really good start, post the results here and we can help you select the right dewormers/dosages.


And also, pictures!! Gotta share pics of those sweet goaties!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm thinking that it's probably not Chlamydia as that is usually ended as soon as the infected goat gives birth. 
For the mineral deficiencies, a good loose mineral. Some good brands are Manna-Pro goat minerals, Sweetlix, Payback goat minerals, or Onyx Right Now made by Cargill.

Selenium and vitamin E are different things, Selenium is the mineral that partners the vitamin E (like vitamin D and Calcium).

If I could make some suggestions for you perhaps...

One of the above loose minerals... General mineral needs
A cobalt/iodine block (pretty blue hard salt block)... Builds red blood cells and improves thyroid function
A sea salt rock (Redmond or Himalaya natural salt rock)... Gives micro-nutrients in a balanced form
This multi-vitamin/mineral paste (give for 5 days in a row, then once a week, 2 1/2 cc each for mini goats) http://www.jefferspet.com/products/replamin-gel-plus
Here is the Selenium/E paste (give one dose now then see if the Replamin will be enough) http://www.jefferspet.com/products/selenium-vitamin-e-gel-for-goats
You may also need these http://www.jefferspet.com/products/copasure-capsules-for-sheep-goats

Some pictures would be very helpful for us to help you...


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

So sorry to hear about all the kid issues  

I too believe you have a big selenium deficiency on your hands. That alone can cause storms of stillbirths and weak kids. 
I would rather you go to a vet and get a bottle of Bo-SE, it works a lot better than the gels and stays in the system longer. That should clear up the weak kid problems too, it is safe to give to kids as soon as they are born. 
And a good idea is to get some kelp for the iodine needed, and leave that out for your goats free choice as well as a good mineral. 

The mineral I am currently using is made for horses, but it is perfectly safe for goats. It is called GroStrong, made by ADM Alliance feeds. You can order it online through True Value hardware and it ships to your closest store for free. 
Sweetlix Copperhead Max 16:8 is a good one as well.

Another good idea is to start copper bolusing. Use the Coppasure brand, the other brands are not true copper it seems. The dosing for copper is 1 gram per 22lbs. 

I can't remember, but if you are not already, I would be feeding alfalfa hay if you can get it, if not supplement with alfalfa pellets. They need the calcium and it is a good source of protein as well.


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## Bansil (Jul 23, 2015)

Kevin,
Welcome from TN also, sorry for your loss r.i.p. kids

No apologies needed here, i still dont know .00001% what this site collectively knows

And pictures are required here...wink....wink....

Google famachi chart, and check your goats eye lids it is an easy and quick thing to do

Here


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I understand the vet cost issue. I am a licensed vet tech and very much respect veterinarians.

That said not all vets know goats. Your typical small animal vet maybe had one class on small ruminants. It wasn't what they focused on. They may try to help and do have other vets they can reach out to for information but they have limited knowledge.

They do have to legally have a valid client patient relationship to prescribe medications. With large animals a lot of times they will treat them as a group not requiring seeing each goat individually. Probably a legal grey area.

If you can find a vet that does know goats and spend the money to establish yourself as a client that would be great. Then should you need them they can help out.

Should be fine to send fecals to the lab mentioned above instead of a vet. The dewormers you can get over the counter. 

The vet though can get you things like Bo-Se ( selenium and vitamin E injectable).


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Kevin...first...welcome to TGS! I think you'll find this a safe place to learn, grow and (sadly) sometimes grieve. I join the others in extending compassion for your losses and your difficult learning process! 

I echo what NicoleMackenzie said -- you need to establish some level of relationship with a vet. Taking in a baggie of goat berries is a great way to open that door. We have to learn to do most of our vet care ourselves, but there are some things -- prescription meds for example -- that we simply need a vet for. Do you have dogs/cats? Maybe find a vet that does livestock (not just small animals) and switch your dogs/cats there for their annual vaccinations. Voila -- relationship established! That, plus the occasional fecal, has bought me a lot of favor with my vet. 

Get books and read, read, read. There are several threads on this site where we discussed our favorite books. And, of course, never ever ever be afraid to post your questions!!! We're all learning. :welcome2:


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

We have a little bit of everything livestock wise. We use our vet for minimal things to keep our relationship. Take a fecal in here or their. Let them draw blood For something and send it off. Whatever. My vet is now mostly over the phone advise. She loves the fact that we call with questions and knows that I do what I should and not abuse the medications she sells us. For one- I have bottles of meds I just replaced. I took all the out of date stuff and showed her I still had it. It just helps her to know Im not constantly dosing my animals for no reason. It gives her more reason to trust me when she gives me prescription meds. 

Any relationship at all. Fecals, blood draws or just taking one in for an examine can really help build a relationship.


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## thegoatmama (Mar 19, 2015)

Hi Kevin, welcome!
I am so sorry to hear about your losses. :hug: The learning curve can be a  Mine sure was. And still can be...

A lot of good information has been mentioned already. I agree that selenium deficiency sounds to be the likely culprit.
I wanted to add that a great way to make selenium and other vital micronutrients available is by offering seaweed/kelp meal free choice. That alone was a serious game changer for my next kidding season. My does adored it and some would eat up to several cups at a time!



thecityman said:


> Its also a pretty big ordeal for me to take a goat to a vet- I have to borrow a truck, drive 30 miles, etc.


I know how that is. I am very much in same boat you are.

I highly recommend Natural Goat and Alpacas Care by Pat Coleby. It changed the way I raised my goats and made a huge impact on their health.

Good luck with your herd and don't let those setbacks get you down. :sadhappy: Like top_goat said, we are all learning. :book:
I hope this doesn't sound silly, but I'm impressed that even after your struggles, you haven't given up and are willing to stick with your goats and learn how to help them better. :thankU: for being a good owner!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Kevin - I'll keep it short. We are all goat lovers here. Pet, dairy meat, packers or anything else you can imagine. We all learn from each other and welcome all people who are trying to learn. Never feel as though you can't ask all questions. I have learned so much here because people are willing to help. Welcome to you and your goaties!:balloons:


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Just curious what type of goats do you have?

I have a 3 door Hyundai Accent. It's a very snug fit but I have on many occasions put my full sized alpine in there! lol. Being such a small space they haven't ever peed but lay down until we reach our destination.

One day I'll have a truck...


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

Sorry for your loss - you are doing the best thing by learning how to help your goats - This is a great site, they answer questions and remain nice. welcome to TGS from Oregon.


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

*wow....just wow*

I've never felt so welcomed in any on-line community, and I am very grateful for your kind and generous reception. It bodes well for this site and goat owners in general! Several of you took time to look things up for me, provide links, and offer in-depth advice. All for someone you really don't know and who doesn't even have a proven history or any longevity here. All I can say is thank-you, and that I promise to pay it forward if and when I ever get enough knowledge or am in a position to help out another goat owner with problems.
I also want you to know that none of your precious advice went unused or unheeded- I literally printed hard copies of almost every single reply in this thread.
Though I've actually had goats for almost 3 years, part of the reason I'm so very ignorant about them is that, other than the kid problems, I've never had any issues whatsoever. I'm a city boy all my life but bought a little "mini-farm" (8 whole acres! ha) 3 years ago. First thing I did was have a goat fence built and I rushed out and got the first goats I could find on Craig's list. Of course I should have done more research, and btw, because of that I cannot answer your questions about what kind of goats I have (except for 1 fainting goat I got last year). But the good news is that for all 3 years I've just kept them well fed, put out mineral block, and wormed as directed by Tractor Supply (not a good information source, I've since learned). Point is, my goats have APPEARED healthy and happy ever since I got those originals so I was falsely led to believe goat rearing is very, very simple and easy. I am now embarrassed by how naive I was. ANd like I said, I mistakenly attributed my first kidding deaths to cold weather so only after this year's deaths did I know for sure I had some serious problems. So now its time for me to start reading, asking questions, and trying to learn from people who know goats. I now have no doubt that I've found the perfect web site and forum for doing just that. Thanks again. I'll continue following this thread in case anyone wants to add any more information about the likely causes of so many of my kids being born dead or extremely weak. In fact, I hope others with similar problems and limited knowledge base like me will find this thread helpful to them too. Seems like some great info and resources here!
Kevin


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

Any vet can do a fecal for you. Just be sure to get a fresh sample. Also you can learn to do it yourself. Look at Fiascofarm.com and she gives really good instructions. I do my own and if in question will have the vet do one. I have even taken a picture of the egg and emailed it to my vet.
I keep free choice minerals, selenium (Caprine supply has some), baking soda and kelp for my goats. And as much browse as they want. Plus they get chaffehay, orchard grass and grass hay and a grain mix. I think this really helps as they can get what they need. I don't like giving shots unless I have to and selenium is pretty toxic by what I understand so I have a concern about the BoSe shots -maybe they don't need it? I do use a selenium jell in the last month or two of a pregnancy as it isn't as potent. If a baby has any weakness I give them a tiny bit of the jell also. 
So sorry you are having problems - it is devastating to loose them.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

The vitamin E added to the selenium shots makes the selenium more usable to the body, but it also makes it less toxic. Bo-SE is actually sometimes used by some vets several days in a row to help debilitated animals as both are powerful antioxidants.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Oooh, post pics, we can guess what they are. I love that game.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Yes, yes -- definitely post pics! And never apologize about having "only" a few acres! I'd wager that many (maybe most?) of us on here are small scale farmers. My sister and I were fortunate enough to purchase 10 acres a little over 2 years ago. We got our first goats 5-6 months later and ... let the games begin! LOL I had read a lot (or so I thought!) and had helped out on a small dairy for about a year prior to getting my land and goats. Evenso, I had a baptism by fire! Two bottle babies almost lost to persistent scours. A "healthy" doe that wasn't...took a year to get her healthy! And my first kidding was...well, let's say everyone survived, but that was by the mercy of G*d. Follow that up with months of persistent staph infections on my two milkers (deep abscesses, not just surface pustules) and then hormone issues and difficulty settling with the "healthy" doe...yup. Baptism by fire. Through all of this I experienced the most amazing level of support and guidance from the folks on this site. And my little herd, which has grown to 6 goats that seem to love me in spite of myself, is a constant source of joy and entertainment!!! Hang in there, Kevin. You're in a good spot!


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Our "farm" consists of 4 acres.

They have a pen so don't even have access to the whole 4 acres. In the nice weather I let them out to graze. I add fence panels as I can afford them to make their enclosure bigger.

It doesn't have to be fancy 

I'm sure your goats are happy and generally healthy. Probably just a bit deficient to carry pregnancies.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I only have an acre and my goats only get half of it! If I have five or more acres....oh lord. We'd have so many goats.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

deerbunnyfarm said:


> I only have an acre and my goats only get half of it! If I have five or more acres....oh lord. We'd have so many goats.


There's a group for people like us....:dancedgi: LOL!


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

deerbunnyfarm said:


> I only have an acre and my goats only get half of it! If I have five or more acres....oh lord. We'd have so many goats.


We have 15 acres and 9 goats plus other livestock. Hubby is driving me insane for more goats. LoL I don't want to grow to fast and be overwhelmed though.


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

*I think I like you folks!*

You really are a nice group of people and I'm so glad I found this site and forum. Something tells me I'll be coming here a lot. I was surprised and relieved to hear that my little 8 acre "farm" isn't the smallest one here and that other people -maybe even most of you- have similar or smaller operations than mine. Perhaps even more refreshing was hearing that many of you- most of whom have more experience than me- also have had issues with your animals and also started off knowing very little. Somehow I guess I just thought everyone who owns goats probably grew up around them and/or had someone in the family that had goat experience. Hearing that I'm not the only one starting from scratch or who only has a small amount of land and a small heard. And to be clear, only about 3 acres of my land is for goats (a huge field and a small barn). They even share both with my free range chickens. The rest of the land is my house, my 3/4 acre vegie garden, and a 70 tree fruit orchard that may eventually take over all the rest of the property.
Anyway, thanks for all the encouragement and for not making me feel like my place is too small or I'm to uneducated on goats!


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I'm glad you feel encouraged! 

I have not been raised farming or even exposed to farming. I have always had animals though, but I'm the black sheep of my family for sure when it comes to my fascination with agriculture. I just started with goats this summer, after we moved from the city to a "country" neighborhood. It was the biggest house/acreage we could find within our budget that was still in a great school district. 

This spring I'll be attempting my first garden... I've never grown a thing in my life. (Well, besides my human kids!  ) So we're all in over our heads on some things!! 

Oh, and we had a bottle baby die on us this fall so, you're not alone with rough first years. After he died we got two ND does, one was supposed to be bred and one was in milk. The first ended up not pregnant, the second was just plain mean, and both of them started knocking my kids down too often for my taste. So we're back to our two original girls. They're the best! 

I might have to ask for advice when I start trying to garden.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Everybody starts somewhere  I was lucky enough to have a dairy judge as my mentor and someone who would sell me goats from their show herd to build my own. We're still good friends.  I didn't really get into goats until about 20 years ago or so, I just dabbled with them here and there. I was mainly a German Shepherd breeder, and I also trained them in personal protection. I also used to breed and show horses a lot, do rodeos and races; the whole 9 yards. Then we got into cows--that was expensive, and not so swell at the same time! And here and there we had goats and show pigs. 
I suppose I learned some of my animal husbandry skills from my dad though, even though he didn't like animals (except for his big ol' great danes). He was the kid that they made take care of all the animals when he was growing up on the reservation, so he learned a thing or two. 

But even with that being said, I definitely have had my fair share of the bad times. The very first year I had goats I WAY overfed my pregnant does and every single kid had to be pulled. That was a nightmare, and needless to say I didn't overfeed them the next time! 
In that 1st year though I also ran into about every single problem there was with goats back then, even my friend had never even had half those problems in the 20 years they had goats. Go figure though--with the last name Murphy, if it can go wrong, it WILL go wrong for me! :lol: But that's just a part of having livestock. And with livestock, there will inevitably be deadstock; it's the cruddy part of raising anything. 

I'm currently on 5 acres, with 40 acres for the horse pasture. My goats only have about 1/4 acre though. 
I used to live in another town, on property that actually had barns and a garage. I moved away from the house I bought with 3 barns and a garage to my parents place here after they moved to Cleveland TN. This place used to be my dads junk yard. Tractors, semi trucks, junk cars, scrap piles, car parts, wood piles, tire piles, all that jazz. It has taken 20 years and all my money, and it still isn't completely cleaned up. 
I still don't have any barns down here. I have 17 goats (and a slew of babies on the way), 3 cows (1, maybe 2 calves on the way), 12 horses, and more dogs than I like to admit.... and still no barn, aren't I fancy? :lol: 
Someday I will have at least one barn, I hope! 

I'm jealous of your orchard by the way!  What kind of fruit tree do you have?


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## nannysrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Hmmm.... we had an apple orchard. Anybody wanna guess what happened to it??? LoL


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

I don't know about the rest of you, but for me its a lot more fun to exchange posts with someone you feel like you know a little bit, and hearing about your own backgrounds, farm description, experience level, and other personal information makes me feel like I know who I'm talking to and its a little more fun.

Deerbunnyfarm, your situation sounds quite similar to mine except I did have gardening experience. But I was raised in a suburban neighboorhood and went to college and grad school in big cities, and have lived in them ever since b4 coming here so I've always been mostly a city boy and never even knew anyone with any farm-related interests. We did have a nice garden, though, and that is one hobby I kept up even when living in large cities. 3.5 years ago I got a job offer in a small town and I bought a little house and 8 acres and decided to create my own little mini-farm in the county. It was the best decision I ever made in my life. I love it more than I can say. Peaceful, quiet, fun, interesting, rewarding, and you all know what I mean. I 
created the largest garden EVER for me (about 3/4 acre) and have been wildly successful with it. (maybe we can trade some advice! ha) My fruit tree orchard has been my biggest passion and I didn't even plan to do an orchard when I bought my place. TO answer your question, Litt-bits-and-pieces, if there is a fruit that can be grown in TN, I have it: apples, pears, plums, peaches, nectarines, cherries (sweet and sour), apricots, figs, asian pears, persimmons (asian and american), paw paws, and some you've never heard of (pluots, etc). Also have 12 kinds of berries. Yea...I love me some fruit! This summer should be my first year to get fruit for many of my trees, and I can't wait. SO if anyone wants to trade goat info for fruit growing info, we can do that too! ha.

Thanks again for sharing a bit more about your own lives and experiences. I'm a fast typist and tend to over-post, so forgive me!


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Sounds like you have quite the set up!! Someday we hope to retire early, build our own log cabin on 10 acres or so, and really throw ourselves into modern homesteading. But everyone has to start somewhere! I figure, I'm 25 now, we'd like to retire by 55, (current dream is 45 but, we'll see...) so I have a solid thirty years of failed gardens before I have to buckle down.  Oh, and lots and lots of failed cheese.... Tried that once, saved up a gallon of yummy goat milk, tried making some cheese on Christmas eve with it and FAILED. Now I have almost a year before I'll have milk to try again.  My goal is that by next summer I'll be able to make homemade marinara sauce grown myself, and maybe some bruschetta made with homemade cheese, herbs, tomatoes.... And be able to make soap. 

And goodness, keep your goats away from your lovely orchard and garden!! That would be quite a tragedy!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Oh nice! I'm a fruit fanatic myself. We have apple trees, cherries, plums, nectarines, pears and peaches, blackberries, raspberries, watermelon (when the chickens don't destroy the patch!) and strawberries :yum:

My name is Lacie, by the way.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Ok...that settles it. We need a "Gardening" section on Goat Spot!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Somehow I guess I just thought everyone who owns goats probably grew up around them and/or had someone in the family that had goat experience.


we have raised dairy goats for nearly 11 years...Never had more then a dog before that lol... I had a friend who raised goats, but I thought she was strange, never did go out to see them lol....THEN, we sold our California city life and moved to Texas country....and what was the first animal we got even before chickens? A goat!! Now Im the strange one...and boy do I love it!! we have 40 acres but only use about 11 for sheep and goats ...our fencing is bad, so until that changes...we keep our herd small enough to stay healthy on the land we use...we have donkeys on the back pasture. we do now have chickens :-D


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

Now that you mention milk, deerbunnyfarm....I was just thinking today that now that one of my nanny goats had both her babies die, I could probably get some milk from her for a while. Problem is that I have tried to milk my goats before, but they absolutely won't have it! I know many people use a milking stand, but I'm not even sure that would work. Last time I ended up literally tying my goat to a post and even then, she fought me HARD the whole time and squirmed and bucked so much it was almost impossible. (If you are laughing its ok- it was quite the scene I assure you!) On top of that she was obviously hating it so much that I just plain felt bad about it and gave up. 
Little-Bits-and-pieces, I'm very impressed with your extensive list of fruits you grow. Obviously I'm a fanatic but very few people have anything more than apples, pears, and maybe one other. And btw- you mentioned watermelons. They are my true passion and I devote more than 1/2 of my garden to growing and experimenting with different varieties. My favorite thing about my new country life is going out in the morning, cutting open a nice watermelon, and just eating the sweet, seed-free heart out of it for breakfast. And as you noted....the chickens make sure the rest doesn't go to waste.
Top-goat, let me know what you get that gardening section going-sounds like a lot of us would enjoy that!
Happybleats, I can soooo relate to your story about thinking your friend with goats was a bit strange until you got one. I, too, have laughed at goat people and often wondered "what are they good for". Now I know all the things they are good for in terms of products and by-products, but most of all I enjoy mine as pets just like I do with my dog (just got a new Brittany and I'm loving him too). And even though I live in a farming area out in the country, part of my pasture runs along a state road (just a 2 lane) and people passing through often park and get out and take photos and let their kids pet my goats through the fence. You'd think they were wild hippos or other exotic animals the way some people carry on, so I guess a lot of people still think goats are a bit of an oddity. BTW...I keep thinking I'd love to get one of those goat-feed machines you see in petting zoos. I'd want it to be free but it would be fun for kids (and parents!) who often stop to inspect and photograph and pet my goats.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I just built this myself one evening... A few 2×4s, an old coffee table, some plywood.... As long as they're eating, they'll let me do anything to them! If I take away the food, it's a struggle though!


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

THank-you much for that photo and idea! I'm not too good at building things but even I could handle that project!! THe goat stands I've seen have all been over $100 and I just didn't want to spend that much on something I could only use a few days a year if at all. SO I AM DEFINITELY GOING TO TRY THAT!

BTW...I have been looking at several of your web sites, and I couldn't be more impressed. Happybleats- your site and description of your life and move to the country is heartwarming and I can very much relate to all of it. I also appreciate that you let your faith shine through your web site. In this age of political correctness is nice seeing that.
Little-bits-and-pieces - wow...I was struck by the professionalism of your site and the absolute perfect look of your goats. Obviously you have some high end animals. I was also struck by the information about shipping your goats via American Airlines! Holy Cow! Really? If you have people wanting your goats enough to have them flown to them, I'd say that says everything about the quality of your animals. 
Top_goat, I couldn't get your facebook link to work...says its disconnected, not just that its not viewable by public, so you might check into that if you don't know.
Windingrvrfarm, your site had cute photos (simone, esp) but more than anything you really sold on me the breed! 1-2 quarts per day from a small goat? And higher in milk-fat at that! Seriously, I'm going to look into Nigerian dwarfs for sure.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Thank you! There's definitely several decades of selective breeding behind my goats, and I'm very happy with the quality of structure and the plentiful production (2-3 gallons a day per doe). They do very well in the show ring at highly competitive shows and they also do well at home as family milkers. I hope my breeding choices blend as well as I think they will, I'm very excited to see the results!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

thanks for the heads up on that FB issue, Kevin. I tried to fix it...now I need to update my FB page! :dancedgi:


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

Top-goat- good luck with that. My own facebook page hasn't been updated in years and I'm one of the 3 people on earth that just don't use facebook much at all. I jokingly tell my friends I'm going to wait and see if face-book catches on and becomes popular or not. ha
Little-bits- DId you say 2-3 GALLONS of milk per day? HOLY COW!!! Or should I say Holy GOAT!!!!! I didn't know cows made that much milk. That is impressive. In keeping with my theme of not knowing much of anything about goats, let me ask you something. Do your goats only produce milk when they have had kids? Do they produce enough to feed their kids and some for you, or can you only get milk if you remove their kids? How long will your goats produce milk (ie days or weeks).
I'm very curious about dairy goats and always wished I could get milk from my own goats. I'd love it to drink or make things with. I know goat milk isn't suppossed to be great for making butter, but I'd LOVE to make some and I know it can be done. SO I'm just trying to learn more about how much milk I'd get if I just had 1 or 2 milk goats similar to yours. THanks


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Yep, 2-3 gallons from each doe per day. Yes, they have to kid before they produce milk, but once in a blue moon there is a doe that is a precocious milker--meaning she will come into milk without kidding. 
However, with that being said, you can milk a goat for however long you want after they kid. I usually milk for 7 months (because I don't have a barn to milk in when it starts raining), 2x a day per doe. 
Most people will milk for 10 months which is considered standard lactation, some milk for several years. I have to milk my does while they are nursing their kids because in the beginning they milk too much for the kids to keep up with, but as the kids get older they catch up with their moms production. Or I take the kids away at birth and bottle feed them and milk the doe. 

So if you had one doe like mine, lets say she milks 2 gallons a day, you'd have 14 gallons of milk in a week, or 56 gallons of milk a month (560 gallons on a ten month lactation). If you have two 2 gallon a day milkers, you can double that to 4 gallons a day, 28 gallons a week, or 112 gallons a month (1120 gallons in ten months if you had two). 


I'm half excited and half dreading the day my cow calves, her mother milked 14 gallons a day and I don't have a milk machine :shock:


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

You have just completely blown my mind! THanks for that info. I had no idea on earth any goat would ever produce 2 gallon of milk per day. Wow. just wow. I am a huge milk drinker by most people's standards, but thats way more than I could drink, so I could try butter and maybe even cheese. Now I'm all excited. I need to get a milk goat for SURE!

One other Q.... my little doe that lost her babies last week....its been 7 days since that happened. DO you think I'm too late to try and get milk from her? Will she have already stopped producing by now since she hasn't been suckled at all? I probably can't even do it tomorrow, so it will be Tuesday and 8 days b4 I get to try....do I have a chance?

Again, thanks for answering what I'm sure must seem like dumb questions to everyone else!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

You have a lesser chance since she has had no kids nursing or being milked. Without the stimulation of either her body will stop producing hormones to continue lactation. Milk is basically supply and demand. You can still try to milk her, but she may already be mostly dried up.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

This is kind of cool... I'm Jill, I was raised with goats that my father owned and my older sister and I cared for. We milked and fed before and after school. The goats were tied out on days people were home to eat brush. Each of the 2 does kidded once and were then milked for years afterward. My great talent was creating halters and training them to ride :lol: No, it wasn't appreciated much. 
Being raised with goats back then doesn't really help today as most land is worn out and the goats requirements are much more. 

I have many years into breeding my ideal of the perfect homestead milk goat that could also be used for meat if necessary. They average about a gallon a day on minimal feed and a gallon and a half if fed more grain or commercial food. They are a hardy 3 way mix of breeds. My focus has been on intelligence, gentle temperaments, parasite resistance, excellent feet, and excellent feed conversion. They are small standards weighing about 110 to 130 lbs as full grown does. The bucks average about 150 to 165. I am almost happy with them now and have high hopes for the upcoming yearlings I am raising. 

My orchard is going in this spring. It will consist of apples, pears cherries, plums, elderberry, service berry, and filberts. I also have a south facing slope that is going to have raspberries, Marionberries, blueberries, and strawberries. The high creek banks will feature salmonberries and kitty willows, while the lower area will be planted with river birch, magnolia, camas, mint, and nettles. I could grow peaches here but I don't want to mess with spraying for peach curl as I want full sized trees. My garden will be put in a few different places and include some raised beds. There's a small one out front right now where I grow tomatoes, chard, squash etc. As the barn is redone, a buck house is built in back, a small chicken house is put up, the raised garden for the goats is done, and the fencing is finished... I will either be happy or I will sell this place and start over :lol: The property itself is in a desirable area for many but, has it's drawbacks for me. 

I can trade you fencing tips for gardening tips. I can put in any kind of fence you want and can tell you how to put in chain link better than professionals do for a lot less money. I can also plan and frame a building, give you step by step instructions for milk stands, feeders, dog houses, chicken houses, and creep feeders. I can show you how to build a bridge if you need one, a floating dock, or a floating duck house. 

I am sorry I haven't gotten back to writing you more parasite articles or gotten the chicken pictures yet. My parents are getting to the point where they are no longer as able and working out what I need to do for them without stepping on their toes, while fending off dysfunctional and possibly crazy siblings has taken my time up lately.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Wow, GoatHiker -- that's awesome! We need to talk! LOL

Back to you Kevin (sorry!) -- if someone else posted this and I missed it, my apologies, but there are two other sites that a lot of us go to for reference. TGS is and always will be my #1 go-to...the community culture here, mixed with the breadth and depth of knowledge is second to none, IMO! That said, you might also check out www.FiasCoFarm.com -- she's got a huge amount of information that is extremely helpful. She also has good plans to construct a sturdy milking stand (if I could do it, you can!) and even patterns to knit baby goat sweaters! (I'm going to start one as soon as I complete the new cap for myself that I'm working on now...keep it simple...no fancy knitting for this one!)

The other site is www.TennesseeMeatGoats.com. You want the "Articles" page. It's pretty well indexed, and extremely comprehensive. I find that if I google a "problem", generally one or all of these three sites is returned!

And as for FB...make that one of four people on earth that hate FB! Don't even get me started on that one! ...chuckle...


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Howdy 
I'm Stephanie and I am "new" to goats ( had them for 6 years ). I own only 6 (not counting kids in spring  )
I have a pure saanen doe, a pure nubian doe, a 50/50 alpine/nubian doe, and a 3/4 nubian 1/4 lamancha doe. I own a pure sable buck and a FB nubian buck. I have a small homestead of less than two acres. I use my goats for milk for my family, meat for my family and I own a small soaping business.
I started with chickens in 2008 and now have 50 hens,13 ducks,2 turkeys and the 6 goats.
Love,love TGS! My only forum I spend any time on.

As for your goats...I agree with selenium/e gel and copper bolusing.


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## thegoatmama (Mar 19, 2015)

thecityman said:


> I don't know about the rest of you, but for me its a lot more fun to exchange posts with someone you feel like you know a little bit, and hearing about your own backgrounds, farm description, experience level, and other personal information makes me feel like I know who I'm talking to and its a little more fun.


I agree! :greengrin:
I'm Rebecca. I wasn't raised on a farm and chose this life 7 years ago.
My goats have access to a 3 acre-paddock and a 2+ acre paddock on rotation. I'm in the process of fencing another 15 acres.
My adventures in goats started with two miniature wethers. I had experience with horses and bottle-raising lambs by then, but I had very little goat experience. I've loved and lost goats and I'm always trying to learn more.



thecityman said:


> I have it: apples, pears, plums, peaches, nectarines, cherries (sweet and sour), apricots, figs, asian pears, persimmons (asian and american), paw paws, and some you've never heard of (pluots, etc).


:shock: Nice!



thecityman said:


> Last time I ended up literally tying my goat to a post and even then, she fought me HARD the whole time and squirmed and bucked so much it was almost impossible. (If you are laughing its ok- it was quite the scene I assure you!) On top of that she was obviously hating it so much that I just plain felt bad about it and gave up.


Some are like that and if you're lucky, you can 'rehab' them.
I have a sweet, but shy goat named Serena. Her first kidding season she had a beautiful baby girl, but she rejected her. It was time to milk her for her baby and man, for how she carried on, you'd think my sweetheart and I were killing her. We made up a system we call 'goat yoga' where I sat on one side and held a rear leg up off the ground and my sweetheart was on the other side doing the same. We milked as fast as we could and Serena wailed and cried. We milked her long enough to feed her baby until we had enough milk from other does to care for her baby and then dried Serena off.
Next season I spent her whole pregnancy getting her used to being handled and she was much better, but could get easily upset (by, say a bird!). So when she'd get unruly, my sweetheart went for the 'wheelbarrow' technique. He would stand behind her and hold her rear legs up and back while I milked. She still cried, but soon learned that if she acted up the 'wheelbarrow' would happen. She got better and better and I could finally milk her by myself without incident.
She's pregnant again and due in February. I can already tell we're going to have to 'teach' her to behave again. Maybe one year she'll just remember...



thecityman said:


> My own facebook page hasn't been updated in years and I'm one of the 3 people on earth that just don't use facebook much at all.


It's nice to know there are 2 other people like me. :lol:


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

<<<One other Q.... my little doe that lost her babies last week....its been 7 days since that happened. DO you think I'm too late to try and get milk from her? Will she have already stopped producing by now since she hasn't been suckled at all? I probably can't even do it tomorrow, so it will be Tuesday and 8 days b4 I get to try....do I have a chance?>>>

A little late on this and I'm not the person you're asking that question of either but we were given an old Nubian doe last year who had just lost twins. No wonder, she was in poor condition herself and the place she came from ... hopeless. No feed no nothing. Anyway we began to milk her and were lucky to get an egg cup full the first few days but with feed twice a day, ad lib hay and 24 hour grazing available, she soon increased and ended up giving enough for the two of us each day for three or four months. She kidded again this year and her now five-months old daughter is still getting milk.

It's worth trying to milk her for sure. You'll either get enough from her to make it worthwhile or you won't!

camooweal


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

I started this thread by promising if you'd help I wouldn't be one of those people who asks questions and then disappears. Then what did I do? Disappeared for a few days! ha. But its ok....just got busy, but I'm here for the long haul. 
Anyway, just wanted to say how much I appreciate and enjoy the last few posts. I've added them to my resources list and am going in a few minutes to go visit all the sites and links provided. Meanwhile, a couple updates- 1) I did try a little to milk my one goat who lost both her twins, but it had been 10 days and like some of you suspected, it was too late. That being said, I'm thinking about milking my one goat who had one twin born dead this year and another born EXTREMELY weak (3 days before it could stand). My question here is whether you all think it would be ok for me to milk her some even though she still has 1 baby milking. My thoughts are that she should have had enough milk for 2 if they had both lived, so perhaps if I could get 1/2 or less it would be ok. I would just take maybe a quart a day.
2) my other update is on the extremely weak baby I mentioned. While it did take 3 days, he is now incredibly healthy and happy (and so am I)! The only evidence of his horrible first week of life is that his front "knees" (lower leg joints) are still swollen from where he couldn't stand and had them folded under him for so long. There are also some bad sore's from where he was unable to stand and was therefore walking on his front knee joints instead of his front feet. But I've kept neosporin on them and they are healing really well. So as horrendous as it is to loose 4 of 5 babies one year and 3 of 4 the next year, at least I do have the joy of getting to say one baby and watch it grow up.

Thegoatmama- if I read correctly, looks like you live in HI ?!?! Boy....talk about living the good life! So not only do you live in HI, but apparently you have several acres there and even have a small farming operation complete with goats. Wow. Just wow. SOunds great. Btw, I have a sister who just moved to Oahu, so I need to come visit! Which island are you on?
nygoatmom/Stephanie, nice to meet you. I, too, have a total of 6 goats so it sounds like we have about the same size "herd". I also very much share your love of chickens and other fowl. I have anywhere from 20-40 free range chickens (depends mostly on how hungry the hawks are between hatchings! I love free ranging my chickens but the price I pay is a high mortality rate due to various raptors. I also, like you, have ducks, geese, and other fowl at times. And as someone new to county living, I still get a thrill every single time I gather eggs from my chicken house. WHile the truth is that if you add up everything I spend to have chickens its not a good deal, I still kind of feel like eggs are a "free" gift from my girls that I love. And the difference between store bought eggs and free range, home grown is amazing.
goathiker, there were so many things in your post I wanted to respond to but just don't have the space! But you did have me laughing about riding goats (and their lack of appreciation of it!) You also clearly have a good working knowledge of orchards- or at least more than most people. Its sad how many people just go to lowes and buy a fruit tree or two and plant it and think they will be picking beautiful fruit in a couple years. As you mentioned, its way more complicated than that. I spray about every 10 days from May from August for some insect or fungus, etc. And as you said, I do have all semi-dwarfs so I can get decent coverage. I have an order in for serviceberries right now, so its interesting you mentioned them. Most of all, I wish I had your skills in building, fencing, etc. Its hard for me to admit it but one of my biggest regrets in life is how poor I am at general work like that. I am bad at fixing things and worse at carpentry and building or doing lots of things a man should be able to do. I have 2 honors diplomas from 2 major universities and yet I couldn't build a simple chicken pen if my life depended on it. When my hand-tiller or tractor breaks down, I don't even try to fix it, just take it in. Oh well....hopefully I'll improve over time. Meanwhile, I'll just ask you for advice/help next time my fence breaks down! ha.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can milk mom. You could even milk her twice a day and basically milk her out. Don't need to separate the kid. Glad the little one is doing better.


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## GoatMama123 (Sep 9, 2015)

Just wanted to say sorry about your losses.... this forum is a life saver for many


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Kevin -- great post! One comment re: carpentry. While your brain may not be wired to become a master carpenter, if I (a retired widow on disability income) can learn to build fences and other structures, so can you! I say that with the intention of encouragement, not rebuke. I was a counselor and hospital chaplain...not exactly the most "crafty" of trades! When my health broke and the AMA told me to "just live with it!", I began to research holistic interventions, which ultimately led me to my little mini-farm, including my 5 dairy goats (3 does for milk -- 2 pregnant -- my buck and his wether buddy), 1 pregnant meat goat (Spanish/Myotonic cross...I think!), a dozen chickens and the battleground between the chickens and me that many people laughingly call a garden! When we bought our land it was totally unfenced. It had been a wrecker yard (how they got those trucks the 1.5 mile back this deer-trail of a road is beyond me, but that's for another time!) Even after two+ years it's amazing the broken glass and other junk we continue to find...especially after a good rain! We have learned largely by trial and error to build fence and pens and shelters. I just completed a small "barn", and -- roll the drums -- I just brought home materials this week to begin a small extension on our 540 sq ft cabin so we can have (gasp!) indoor plumbing!!! At the risk of sounding totally crazy, the Master Carpenter of Nazareth has been my mentor and strength...I ask Him how to do something and ideas seem to flow into my previously befuddled mind! I just love it when He sends an angelic "work team" to help me the heavy lifting...like lifting and hanging 18' gates! Our journey has been a true adventure and I wouldn't change any of it...well, not much of it, anyway! I share all of this to encourage you not to write yourself off when it comes to leaning new tricks! It's in you...you can find it. Blessings!

1st pic is the barn...all salvaged materials except for the siding, which came direct from a local lumber mill. 2nd pic is a storage shed. My son was born and raised in Kansas City and is a HUGE fan of KU basketball...hence the "Jayhawk" on the door! We affectionately call the shed "Allen Field House". :roll:


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## thegoatmama (Mar 19, 2015)

thecityman said:


> 2) my other update is on the extremely weak baby I mentioned.


I'm so glad to hear the little guy is doing so well. Treasure the ones that make it! :hug:



thecityman said:


> Thegoatmama- if I read correctly, looks like you live in HI ?!?! Boy....talk about living the good life! So not only do you live in HI, but apparently you have several acres there and even have a small farming operation complete with goats. Wow. Just wow. SOunds great. Btw, I have a sister who just moved to Oahu, so I need to come visit! Which island are you on?


:lol: thank you, it took a bunch of crazy things to get me to Hawaii, and even crazier things to get to leasing land and caring for so many goats, but I wouldn't trade it for anything!
I'm on the Big one. ;-) Give a holler when you make the jaunt across the ocean. :greengrin:


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

We have 14 acres but only about 6-7 are usable. The other is across the river and left as woods. We have a bear over there and lots of deer from time to time. My goats have a paddock area by their barn but get to go for walks in the woods weather permitting. We have to be careful of that also as we have cougars come on our place also. I usually take a gun hoping a firing into the ground would scare a predator off. 
We garden and produce most of our own food, when milking we have milk, cheese & yogurt. Sometimes I think we need to slow down as we are in our 70's now but I so love my goats. Oh we have a few katahdin sheep and 2 llamas and 2 dogs. A collie who is afraid of the sheep and a yorkie who wants to herd them. Go figure !I love this web site and it is my "can't sleep" go to place and even though I have had goats off and on for many years you are never done learning. And just when I think everything is going so smooth something will happen. This week I had a doe step on a staple that came from heaven only know where and a little buckling I bought get sick. So tomorrow I will try to take him to the vet, worried he is not responding as well as I want. Find a vet you like and one that will work with you - I feel that is really important. Keep up the good work. With all the advice you got things will improve a lot.


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

top_goat said:


> One comment re: carpentry. While your brain may not be wired to become a master carpenter, if I (a retired widow on disability income) can learn to build fences and other structures, so can you! I say that with the intention of encouragement, not rebuke.
> 
> That was a super nice and much appreciated thing for you to say. As you have picked up on, I am a little self-conscience and embarrassed by my near total lack of skills when it comes to carpentry, building, repairing, using tools, etc. Society, my friends, and even myself to a degree feel like a man ought to be able to do "man things" like that. And I'm an otherwise "manly" kind of man- ie straight, not the least bit effeminate, a masculine type guy in almost every way but this. But I've just never been exposed to those kinds of skills and after a lifetime of college, grad school, white collar jobs, and so on, I never learned to work with my hands. Almost anything that tears up I have to call someone, and I'm always embarrassed by it. So your comment makes me feel better and reminds me that I'm not the only one- man or woman- who isn't good at those kinds of things and if others can learn, I need to as well. I tend to just not even try, which means I never will learn, so I'll take your advice to heart. Thanks.
> wndngvr- I loved your post as well. You also have a great sense of humor! Your small farm sounds awesome! I love the self-reliance you speak of, and while I'm certain the bears and mountain lions make you and your goats uncomfortable, they tell me that you are in a quite remote and undeveloped area and I love the thought of living so close to edge of "the wild".
> ...


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## thegoatmama (Mar 19, 2015)

thecityman said:


> I started this thread by promising if you'd help I wouldn't be one of those people who asks questions and then disappears. Then what did I do? Disappeared for a few days! ha. But its ok....just got busy, but I'm here for the long haul.


No worries.  I do that a lot too. :hi5:

Glad the little one is continuing to do well! do you think he is out of the woods enough to get a name?


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

thecityman
your thread has really brought back memories for me. The first kidding I lost 60% of my kids. Back then I was lambing out 300 ewes and my milk replacer cost was over $5000.00 dollars a year. I got goats to feed the bum lambs I had. I thought goats were like Sheep and that is why I lost 6 of the first 10 kids I had born. that was a hard pill for me to swallow for a guy that takes pride in only loosing 8% of my lambs that are born in the first 5 days of there life. It was not uncommand to have 30 lambs born a day. And I lambed alone.
This is where I have an advantage over you because I was not a city boy and had many years of experience under my belt. I saw that the sheep were pushing the does away from the hay bunk. so the next year I separated the sheep and goats so the does had all the hay they wanted. I also noticed the kids were very week so the next year I added 300 eu of vitamin E per pound of grain and fed one pound of grain per doe a day. that solved the problem.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hi5:


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

fivemoremiles said:


> thecityman
> your thread has really brought back memories for me.
> 
> I was going to say I'm glad I took you down memory lane, but on second thought I'm sure remembering when you had a lot of kidding deaths probably wasn't a memory you wanted to relive! But I definitely take your point- the fact that you too, even with animal experience, made some mistakes early on but did learn when to do and were able to overcome your mistakes/deaths and improve the health of your heard and babies. That is great news, and I appreciate you telling me that story. Nice to know even those with some animal experience can make mistakes and/or have room for improvement. I must say, one of the many emotions I've felt from loosing so many babies is flat guilt. I mean, were it not for my stupidity and inexperience several baby goats would probably be alive to day. That is very hard to accept. I really love my animals and care what happens, so knowing I might could have had a much lower mortality rate just by adding selenium and vitamin E really hurts. But like in your story, I hope very much that next year I'll have a lot of success and look back and say I'm a much better owner. Thanks again.


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## Steampunked (Mar 23, 2015)

thecityman said:


> top_goat said:
> 
> 
> > Society, my friends, and even myself to a degree feel like a man ought to be able to do "man things" like that. And I'm an otherwise "manly" kind of man- ie straight, not the least bit effeminate, a masculine type guy in almost every way but this.
> ...


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Steampunked said:


> thecityman said:
> 
> 
> > I really wouldn't pay the least bit of attention to anyone else who says that - or to your own worries....You learn more from how you fail than from a success, most of the time. It gets hairy when living animals are involved (suffering has to be stopped immediately), but if carpentry didn't work, or wiring something was hard, or so on, you have to learn - like me - to suck it down and ask for help. While you remember your failures, other people won't. Unless they're the kind of people who _looooove _rehashing other people's mistakes, and who wants that kind of person around them much?
> ...


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

good you totally got my post the guilt I felt was was hard to bear too.
one other thing you should look into is learning to use a stomach tube.
tubing lambs and goats has saved countless lives on my farm.


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## thegoatmama (Mar 19, 2015)

thecityman said:


> I must say, one of the many emotions I've felt from loosing so many babies is flat guilt. I mean, were it not for my stupidity and inexperience several baby goats would probably be alive to day. That is very hard to accept. I really love my animals and care what happens, so knowing I might could have had a much lower mortality rate just by adding selenium and vitamin E really hurts.


:hug: Been there. Guilt is hellacious. What's helped me, is do improve with the ones I have, know there will still be setbacks, learn from them and keep caring and loving on the ones that are still with me. :sadhappy:


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

<<<I must say, one of the many emotions I've felt from loosing so many babies is flat guilt. I mean, were it not for my stupidity and inexperience several baby goats would probably be alive to day. That is very hard to accept. I really love my animals and care what happens, so knowing I might could have had a much lower mortality rate just by adding selenium and vitamin E really hurts.>>>

Some say that a creature sometimes comes into our life to teach us something. In my case it was my third Great Dane (I'm a Great Dane nut as well as a Nubian nut), well-fed, cared for, but died at seven years of age from bone cancer. Wormed and vaccinated all his short life but on going into the causes of bone cancer, a link was made to vaccines. For me that was the lesson Smokey came to teach me and I've never vaccinated anything since. 
I'm not trying to start anything here on vaccination so please take my comments for what they are ... just my opinion!!! To each his own.

camooweal


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## cfish001 (Sep 1, 2015)

deerbunnyfarm said:


> I only have an acre and my goats only get half of it! If I have five or more acres....oh lord. We'd have so many goats.


We are on 5 acres which we purchased over 20 years ago and are in the process of acquiring our dairy license to sell raw goats milk. I want to fill up my 5 acres with goats.

I got my goats 4 years ago and have had all kinds of problems. I got lucky I think. I purchased my 1st 2 goats from a dairy north of Seattle. The owner is wonderful and has been my resource when I have needed help. She uses herbal remedies and we have helped each other to find things that work.

Last year in the process of moving back to our property, we kinda fell down on the selenium and copper supplementation. I hate giving shots so we use the Selenium paste. We certainly did not keep up with required schedule you need to keep in giving these, so our kids were smaller last year and had one that was born with a selenium deficiency. We were able to remedy that with the selenium paste and he recovered nicely within a couple of days.

This year we kept up with it and our kids are bigger and healthy. Today with the buck that was born, our count is now 19 goats and soon to be more since we have 4 more does to still kid.

I like to use natural methods to take care of my goats.

I use nutritional yeast to give my goats B vitamins to avoid goat polio.
I use rose hips for vitamin c supplementation
I use garlic and diatomaceous earth for worming.
I give my goats ground up flax seed for hoof and hair health. (got that idea from Purina from the ingredients listed in their loose goat mineral)

I give them free choice baking soda and loose minerals in the barn. I have yet to be able to get ahold of kelp.

I use oregano oil, coconut oil for mastitis, wound care, and coconut oil for external parasite control.

I use sugar and coconut oil for wound care (larger wounds).
I use cornstarch for blood stop.

I had to find a new vet when we moved back to our property. I have found one I really like and talked with him about what we use. He tells me my goats are very healthy and to keep doing what I am doing.

It sounds like you are a very caring goat owner. Sometimes you run across stuff you would never dream of happening to your goats. Keep learning and you will get there.

Carrol


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## thecityman (Jan 16, 2016)

*thanks again*

So, this thread continues to be interesting and helpful. Thanks for the newest posts. They are helpful and fun.

Since many of us have taken a little side trip with this thread and gone a little off-topic, I hope you all will forgive me for continuing to do that.....

I took today off work and ended up pretty much just goofing off with my 5 goats and one baby (that survived). I invite all of you to think back to when you were, like I am, pretty new to goats, didn't take them for granted, and could take hours watching and interacting with them. Its easy to loose sight of the JOY of goat ownership when you see them daily and get caught up in trying to treat some illness or do other goat-work related things. GOATS ARE FUN!!!! I just can't tell you how special it was just watching that little baby and his mama. Hearing him bleat for her when she'd get a few steps too far, seeing him milk and her tolerating it (he gets kind of rough and sort of "punches" her milk sack when he feeds. I also found it fascinating how much different mama goat acts with a baby than she does without. For example, all year long I take my dog inside the goat field and even inside the goat barn and mama goat and the others never pay any attention at all to my dog (who is well behaved and never bothers them). They will stand right up against my dog like its another goat. But everything has changed now that Mama has a baby! If my dog gets within 15 feet of the baby goat, mama will put her head down and charge full speed at my dog and buck him as hard as she can. (And btw, its quite effective and my dog will no longer get near her!). I know its common sense and old news to you all, but I still find things like this about my goats to be amazing. Its pretty neat that mom is all of a sudden so very careful and protective.

I could go on and on about the fun I had playing with and watching my goats, and while I know you've all done it, even I sometimes treat my goats as yard decorations and don't hardly pay any attention to them. (of course I feed, water, and care for them, but sometimes I go for weeks without truly enjoying and appreciate them. Days like today remind me why I have goats to begin with, and I hope you all will think about this next time you are with your goats and have a few minutes. They really are so much fun!!!! Hope this doesn't sound too sappy! haha.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I completely agree with you!! I try my best to make my two human kids play outside at least two hours a day, and it's always my favorite time of our day. Just watching the goats and children play is one of my all time favorite things to do! Today we built a little "agility course" for everyone to play hot lava... My three year old was THRILLED to see her goat following her on the balance beam. So stinkin cute. IMO those are the moments my husband and I work so hard to create for our family!


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## thegoatmama (Mar 19, 2015)

camooweal said:


> Some say that a creature sometimes comes into our life to teach us something. In my case it was my third Great Dane (I'm a Great Dane nut as well as a Nubian nut), well-fed, cared for, but died at seven years of age from bone cancer. Wormed and vaccinated all his short life but on going into the causes of bone cancer, a link was made to vaccines. For me that was the lesson Smokey came to teach me and I've never vaccinated anything since.
> I'm not trying to start anything here on vaccination so please take my comments for what they are ... just my opinion!!! To each his own.
> camooweal


That's very interesting camooweal. I'm so sorry you lost your dog that way.
I, myself, had a debacle of a first kidding season and after watching several kids suffer from something I found out I could have vaccinated for, I now make sure my whole herd is up to date. (also, not trying to start anything, just my experiences).



cfish001 said:


> We are on 5 acres which we purchased over 20 years ago and are in the process of acquiring our dairy license to sell raw goats milk. I want to fill up my 5 acres with goats.


Caroll that is so cool! I'm very jealous. In Hawaii, raw milk anything is verboten. :hair: Good luck on your dairy journey!


cfish001 said:


> I like to use natural methods to take care of my goats.


That's a really interesting list. Thank you!
I'm going to look into a few of those I'm not already using. It took me a long time to find a supplier for kelp. I had to beg and bother so many businesses to try and get them carry it. :lol: In the end, Miranda's Country Store started carrying it on a trial run and when I squealed with excitement when I saw it on their new items list, the owner asked me what it was good for. I gushed, "I use it for my goats and pigs and..." she asked if it could be good for horses and I told her I didn't see why not. Now its hard pick one up before they run out. What have I done? :laugh:
If you're interested, there's a place called Concentrates, Inc in Oregon that I found carries kelp.


cfish001 said:


> I had to find a new vet when we moved back to our property. I have found one I really like and talked with him about what we use. He tells me my goats are very healthy and to keep doing what I am doing.


don't you just love a vote of confidence from your vet? :greengrin:



thecityman said:


> So, this thread continues to be interesting and helpful. Thanks for the newest posts. They are helpful and fun.
> Since many of us have taken a little side trip with this thread and gone a little off-topic, I hope you all will forgive me for continuing to do that.....


Yeah, so we might be a bit off topic, but I think it's a good change. :grin:

I absolutely loved your story! Although, my goats are too demanding to let themselves be yard decorations :slapfloor: ...sometimes I get too busy to just hang out with them over and above their daily care, but when I can, it sure is wonderful.
I'm glad you had so much fun with your goats. I haven't been around goats and dogs together, so it was fun to hear about how your mama goat took charge! What are your goats names, by the way?



deerbunnyfarm said:


> I completely agree with you!! I try my best to make my two human kids play outside at least two hours a day, and it's always my favorite time of our day. Just watching the goats and children play is one of my all time favorite things to do! Today we built a little "agility course" for everyone to play hot lava... My three year old was THRILLED to see her goat following her on the balance beam. So stinkin cute. IMO those are the moments my husband and I work so hard to create for our family!


Oh deerbunny, you have got the life! :woohoo:


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