# ABGA survey



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

My son got an email from ABGA yesterday about the survey they are doing about the enhancement/drug issue and enforcing rules.

My kids haven't shown at an ABGA show yet, so I don't know the pros and cons behind the scenes.

So I am curious what everyone's thoughts are on this. What is a big problem? 

Also, it was talking about drugs. What kind of drugs exactly were they indicating an issue with? 

Just curious as I wasn't sure if people are doping their animals, or if it was more of a illness type medication issue.


----------



## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I think if the ABGA does start banning all of these things from shows, there will be a LOT of unhappy and VERY upset people! Every single ABGA show I go to everyone is using at least 1 of the products they mentioned! Chill or alcohol on the tail, adhesive for the hair, oil on the horns (I'm guilty with that one!).. Come on. I think it is perfectly fine to do everything in your power to make you goats look their very best! And if that includes putting oil on their horns...I say go for it!


----------



## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

I got the survey awhile back. Haven't completed it yet. 

Some goats won't hardly drink on the road. Drenching them with fluids really helps. Non issue.
I can blow dry and fit without using adhesive and get about the same results, I see this as a non issue. 
Drugs? What are we are going to test for and who's going to pay for it? 
Baby powder? So what, non issue. 
All the different stuff people do to fit these animals I don't see giving an unfair advantage.
I am going to read some more and ask a few people on some of the facebook groups what they think about some of the rest of the stuff..


----------



## hscottom87 (Mar 21, 2013)

Gt there's tons of info on the facebook groups. It's been a hot issue.

Drenching is beneficial. It's another thing when they stick tubes down their throats, over pumping their stomachs for fill. Baby powder, who cares. Adhesives, who cares. Bottom line, when that judge puts his hand on that goat, genetics win. Cool blue, not a personal fan, but to each their own. When used rectally is when it's an issue. If the drug test fees feel back on the ABGA then great.


----------



## hscottom87 (Mar 21, 2013)

They shouldn't of been so vague on their survey. If there's more to it then it appears, they should of explained what the real issues are. Because it really seemed petty & like hmm aren't there bigger fish to fry?


----------



## hscottom87 (Mar 21, 2013)

I don't want to hijack this thread but if someone could private message me over oiling horns, that'd be great. I'm hesitant due to fear of them not being able to dissipate heat from the horns causing them to overheat.


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

My personal opinion is that anything cosmetic should be fine. Sounds like some folks are getting all worked up.
Hscott a light coating of oil shouldn't have adverse affect.


----------



## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

I just use vegetable oil on my goats horns... it wears off in a few hours. I put it on the morning of the show just for shine.  I seriously doubt that would cause a problem....


----------



## hscottom87 (Mar 21, 2013)

Thank you.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I voted "no" on making rules on the drenching, powder, glue and tails. None of those things will enable a bad goat to beat a good goat. 
I voted yes on random drug testing. In the survey it said the ABGA would pay for it. I don't know if it is a problem or not, but being in the horse racing business, I know certain drugs can effect appetite, growth and muscle. It's my understanding they already test at big stock shows. I think the testing would be a deterrent. The big outfits with the expensive goats wouldn't risk the blow to their reputation.


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

On the horn oiling- most oils wear off in a couple hours and won't cause the goat any issues. Its when people use thick hoof polishes and such that cause the problem. Even then you don't have much to worry about unless your goat really over heats. (Left in a trailer in summer ect) 

Drenching is touchy- I drench wethers that won't drink. I have one that refuses and will dehydrate if I don't drench him. He drinks out a gatorade bottle now... is that considered drenching? Its the only way he drinks at shows so we'll see what the state fair says. The issue really comes in with people over drenching and filling the goat to a dangerous level. Its hard to do and rarely ever done. Most people have more common sense than to over drench and don't want to hurt the animal. 

All the powders, oils, adhesives and what not are cosmetic. You want performance taken into consideration? Lets do EPDs like cattle. Lets ultrasound REA. Better yet, more feed conversion tests need to be offered. These big shows are just that- shows. If we want performance then we need to request feed challenges, wormer tests and carcass grading. I wish my state fair would send a carcass report- heck I'd like to see mt wethers in rail. Theres the real test!


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

HoosierShadow said:


> My son got an email from ABGA yesterday about the survey they are doing about the enhancement/drug issue and enforcing rules.
> 
> My kids haven't shown at an ABGA show yet, so I don't know the pros and cons behind the scenes.
> 
> ...


Drugs would likely be paylean. It was developed for hogs in the last 30 days of feeding to increase weight rapidly. It gained popularity with cattle but recently packers started turning cattle away if they had paylean or zilmax in their system, for welfare reasons. Mainly not enough research proving its safe. Its even starting to be rejected in commercial feeder hogs for the same reasons as cattle.

Its a beta antagonist and its job is to increase the muscle fiber size by two or more the normal size. Its like running them a lot but without the work. It can cause major structrual soundness issues, especially in goats. You'll notice realy stiff joints from the rapid muscle growth.

There has been talk of contaminated meat being dangerous to people but I'm not exactly sure how.


----------



## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Dani-1995 said:


> Drugs would likely be paylean. It was developed for hogs in the last 30 days of feeding to increase weight rapidly. It gained popularity with cattle but recently packers started turning cattle away if they had paylean or zilmax in their system, for welfare reasons. Mainly not enough research proving its safe. Its even starting to be rejected in commercial feeder hogs for the same reasons as cattle.
> 
> Its a beta antagonist and its job is to increase the muscle fiber size by two or more the normal size. Its like running them a lot but without the work. It can cause major structrual soundness issues, especially in goats. You'll notice realy stiff joints from the rapid muscle growth.
> 
> There has been talk of contaminated meat being dangerous to people but I'm not exactly sure how.


Interesting info. Really makes me wonder how many of the powerful wethers I see are "real". As a breeder, I keep working on my genetics to create that perfect, powerful but pretty wether. Guess I'll just take more pride in getting close with a "all natural" animal.


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Most of them are real. There are a lot of excercise programs and feed rations that will help them. Usually at a bigger show the winner will be tested. But I had heard that sometimes it doesn't test in blood or urine but only tissue- not sure about that though.


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Dani, I appreciate the info. 
In horses, steroids are such a big issue, and so many other things too. There was a trainer some years ago that got into a big issue because he was basically drenching a horse with something that is referred to as a 'milkshake.' 
Or a trainer that even used rattlesnake venom! 
Kentucky Derby winner Big Brown was even run on some kind of steroids, and it became a huge issue. But then his trainer was shady anyway, which is why he's been suspended...
So lots of issues.
Now I think most of the yearlings that go through the big yearling sales are drug tested for steroids. I can't remember how it works, either they are tested before or potential buyers can request the horses be tested.

It's a shame everyone can't be honest and do things the right way, ya know?


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

It is amazing what people will do to win. Its going to happen no matter where you are or what your doing. People cheat and that's the bottom line. All we can do is be honest and raise our animals the right way.


----------



## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

Paylean is banned in NC and the reason is because of what it does to the meat...not for welfare purposes. 

It really makes the meat unbearable to consume for sake of quality.

I am against any steroids or medication...as for comestics who cares, I dont eat the horns and if two goats are EXACTLY the same I am surely not going to pick one over the other because its horns have more shine.

Drenching I do not have a problem with either...not many people know how to properly do it and it ends up hurting their chances anyways.


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

JT3 said:


> Paylean is banned in NC and the reason is because of what it does to the meat...not for welfare purposes.
> 
> It really makes the meat unbearable to consume for sake of quality.
> 
> ...


Is it just paylean that is banned or beta antagonists in general?


----------



## JT3 (May 1, 2011)

Betas in general.

There are quite a few banned substances actually that are not banned in other states/shows/circuits.

Drenching is banned as well.

http://www.ncstatefair.org/2013/Competitions/PremiumBook/2013Dept025.pdf


----------



## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

JT3 said:


> Betas in general.
> 
> There are quite a few banned substances actually that are not banned in other states/shows/circuits.
> 
> ...


Alright I thought so. I knew drenching wasn't allowed. I'm on the State Skillathon team and we have been learning about betas recently. Thanks for the info!


----------

