# Hardiest Dairy breed for Southeast



## flatmountain (Aug 14, 2010)

Okay I started into goats with the goats I loved the looks of. Not my wisest choice. What dairy breeds are best for resisting parasites and disease in the southeast US?


----------



## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm in NC
I have Nigerians and Toggenburgs
I personally know people with every breed 
I don't know if any are better than others 
I'll be interested to hear what others have to say
What breed do you have?


----------



## flatmountain (Aug 14, 2010)

Well I've always kept a very small herd but after several tragedies I decided to "get out of goats" but still have two. Because my heart and my rational brain are not on the same page o guess. I have a mini-Nubian fainter cross (been an immune nightmare but she's just a weak one I think) and a F1 mini- lamancha who is generally an easy keeper.


----------



## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Is there such a thing as an easy keeper ? Lol:lolgoat: I personally don't have a lot of experience with different breeds so I am certainly not your expert. However I hear talking about Spanish goats and KiKo goats as being tuff and more resistance to worms and other issues that trouble goats but they are not dairy breeds. I keep Nubian and do my best to keep them up on copper and other vitamins so far have not had a lot of issues. I am sure that there are much more knowledgeable goat keepers here that can give you solid information. Good luck finding that perfect goat. :cow:


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Honestly I fully believe it has more to do with how the specific animal/ her lines have been raised/ managed. If you think about it it makes sense. If you buy animals from someone who doesn’t pampered over the years it’s kinda a survival of the fittest. If it’s animals that have lived their whole life being pampered and never exposed to anything “bad” or lines that have always been nurses back to health then they just keep reproducing these delicate little flowers.
Boers have slowly started to get a bad name over the years. All anyone was really focused on when they first came here were the fact that they were these huge meat Goats. They didn’t cull over parasites or bad feet or this or that. Then kikos became a big hit and all the meat goat breeders realized the hole they dug with the boers so they made sure not to make the same mistake. I raise boers, ive had a good handful I couldn’t cull fast enough and am now super picky on who I buy from and it has worked great.
So the moral of all that lol also focus on where your buying your animals from. If you want Goats out in the pasture eating not at a feeder buy from someone who has them on pasture. 
Texas goat man is also correct on mentioning copper and other vitamins. Copper boluses make a huge difference on parasites and over all health.
Again I raise mostly boers but I do have a few dairy. For being the most hardy I have to say my alpines are probably it. I really disliked them at first but they are always fat and sassy, their feet are freaking amazing! And other then being wormed after kidding they haven’t needed any extra worming. Second would be my lamanchas although I haven’t had to worm my old retired doe but once in the last few years but she lives a pretty stress free life now lol


----------



## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

My NDs were always hardier than my Alpines. But I decided NDs weren't worth the trouble lol


----------



## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

Jessica84 said:


> Honestly I fully believe it has more to do with how the specific animal/ her lines have been raised/ managed.





Jessica84 said:


> So the moral of all that lol also focus on where your buying your animals from. If you want Goats out in the pasture eating not at a feeder buy from someone who has them on pasture.


I've gotta fully agree here, not enough likes possible. I do baby mine, and "nurse back to health"... but it absolutely changes who I'd keep a buck out of, who gets sold, who's doelings get kept. They've got to be able to thrive in my system; and buying from someone else with a system close to mine, in a climate close to mine is so much more effective than re-inventing the wheel.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Kath G. said:


> I've gotta fully agree here, not enough likes possible. I do baby mine, and "nurse back to health"... but it absolutely changes who I'd keep a buck out of, who gets sold, who's doelings get kept. They've got to be able to thrive in my system; and buying from someone else with a system close to mine, in a climate close to mine is so much more effective than re-inventing the wheel.


Of course! I try to run my Goats as a business and I want a hardy herd but no way am I going to sit there and watch one die. I have just learned that the ones that always have a issue will keep having them till they die and their offspring are sometimes, usually, not as hardy as the others especially when it comes to parasites.


----------



## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> My NDs were always hardier than my Alpines. But I decided NDs weren't worth the trouble lol


That statement is kind of contradictory


----------



## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

IHEARTGOATS said:


> That statement is kind of contradictory


I know lol. I found NDs to be stubborn, and not produce a ton of milk. And all of mine were fence jumpers. Healthy fence jumpers


----------



## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

IHEARTGOATS said:


> That statement is kind of contradictory


I know lol. I found NDs to be stubborn, and not produce a ton of milk. And all of mine were fence jumpers. Healthy fence jumpers


----------



## still_learning (Feb 4, 2018)

I have given up on finding goats hardy enough for my area of NC; we have some truly awful strain of worms here, barely responsive to any wormers. I'm working to breed my own now.

I started with two Alpine does and a Boer buck. The Boer never stayed very healthy after I got him. The worms took out one Alpine before she ever bred. A year or so afterward I ended up with my mom's mean Pygmy buck and skittish Nigerian doe by default. As best as I have ever been able to tell, the Pygmy killed the Boer. The other Alpine was a lot hardier than her sister and gave me three kiddings before she got loose and poisoned herself with pokeweed. After her first kidding (a doe who later ripped off her own horn) a friend offered me two Nigerian does super cheap because they were fence jumpers. One gave me two kiddings before the worms got her, her sister just gave me her fifth and is still going, though recovering from what I think is cheatgrass. I bought a 7/8 Kiko buck two years ago.

Current breedable bucks:
1 Extra Large Killer Pygmy
1 Relatively Normal Pygmy/Nigerian, who is more of an escape artist than his mother ever dreamed of being
1 High Percentage Kiko, very well-mannered

Current Breedable Does:
1 Boer/Alpine who is much smarter than she started
1 Nigerian who hates people but is quite healthy
1 Nigerian who is a great mother and has mellowed with age, barely escapes anymore
1 Pygmy/Nigerian who hates people so much she is almost unapproachable, but even healthier than her mother; worth it
1 Pygmy/Alpine who has followed me like a puppy since her mother and brother died

I want to stress that these are the survivors. I have had many, many deaths, deaths in every bloodline due to worms I couldn't beat. No breed has seemed more hardy, even the Kiko's (who are touted as passing on exceptional resistance) first son died of the worms before he quite hit two years; though his next three kids showed much more promise before accidents took two of them out.

Like some others said, it's more of a goat by goat basis because people have not been reliably culling for decades.

One quick note. I do not yet have any does from the Kiko, his only daughter didn't make it. So I cannot speak directly to milk production or quality. But all the sires in the original breeding program were Nubians, Saanens, and Toggenburgs (all milk goats) with exceptional production lines. The high production is the reason the kids put on weight so fast. In theory, they should work well as milk goats. I'm really hoping that and the supposed worm resistance pay off for me.


----------



## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

still_learning said:


> I have given up on finding goats hardy enough for my area of NC; we have some truly awful strain of worms here, barely responsive to any wormers. I'm working to breed my own now.
> 
> I started with two Alpine does and a Boer buck. The Boer never stayed very healthy after I got him. The worms took out one Alpine before she ever bred. A year or so afterward I ended up with my mom's mean Pygmy buck and skittish Nigerian doe by default. As best as I have ever been able to tell, the Pygmy killed the Boer. The other Alpine was a lot hardier than her sister and gave me three kiddings before she got loose and poisoned herself with pokeweed. After her first kidding (a doe who later ripped off her own horn) a friend offered me two Nigerian does super cheap because they were fence jumpers. One gave me two kiddings before the worms got her, her sister just gave me her fifth and is still going, though recovering from what I think is cheatgrass. I bought a 7/8 Kiko buck two years ago.
> 
> ...


Wow
That sounds awful
I live in NC near Raleigh and have about 40 Nigerians and have never lost one to worms


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

In New Zealand, Kikos are considered all purpose goats. In the US meat production has been focused on, but they can still produce enough milk to make it worthwhile to milk them.

In your shoes, as you've described it to me, I would consider breeding Alpine/Kiko crosses, selecting for milk production AND parasite tolerance. It may take you a few generations to get what you want, but worth it, in my opinion.

I live in South KY, but a large percentage of my herd descends from Alpines bred for decades now in North Carolina. It really can make a big difference. I have a Kiko buck who has proven very hardy. I also have an Alpine/Pygmy cross buck, same story.

Management practices are immensely important too. I'm not talking about coddling them, but basic attention to their natural needs, like don't feed them on the ground, don't worm on a schedule whether they need it or not, don't stress them by not keeping the minerals available, or making them live in manure, or allowing bullies to torment them. All this decreases their tolerance for parasites and germs.

Good luck, I look forward to learning what you choose to do, and how it works out for you.


----------



## Kaigypsygoats (Jan 10, 2018)

Kath G. said:


> I've gotta fully agree here, not enough likes possible. I do baby mine, and "nurse back to health"... but it absolutely changes who I'd keep a buck out of, who gets sold, who's doelings get kept. They've got to be able to thrive in my system; and buying from someone else with a system close to mine, in a climate close to mine is so much more effective than re-inventing the wheel.


I second this. I am getting my goats from a lady who runs a dairy so milking ability features high as well as health. Also, they are coming from Arizona so it fits in our area of the High Deserts. I think though, we will definitely keep in mind good nutrition to combat various issues.


----------



## still_learning (Feb 4, 2018)

IHEARTGOATS said:


> Wow
> That sounds awful
> I live in NC near Raleigh and have about 40 Nigerians and have never lost one to worms


It's been discouraging to say the least. I've often thought about giving up on goats altogether. The strangest thing about it all, is the question of where the worms came from. I've only been raising goats about 6-7 years now. The last time we had any livestock here I was still a kid, before my grandfather died. So, two bulls were the last thing we raised about 12 years before I got the goats, and they never had any significant health problems. Other than mowing, the land sat fallow that whole time. Deer almost never cross my property. Goats have not been on this property in at least 35 years, probably over 50. What was supporting these worms over all this time?


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

They could well have come in with your goats...


----------



## still_learning (Feb 4, 2018)

mariarose said:


> They could well have come in with your goats...


Definitely a possibility. You just made me realize I've been misremembering; it was not worms that killed the first Alpine; my vet did not get a hard diagnoses but he had said polio or listeriosis were the two most likely causes. Took measures and never had the problem again and I started conflating her with all the worm deaths.

Beyond that, I never had a problem before I got the Boer. Still, it doesn't seem quite right. They never showed signs until after I fed them on one specific half-acre patch. I had rarely had the Alpines there because it was unfenced and out of sight and they were dehorned. After I got a buck to run with them I was more comfortable letting them be there and it had the best grazing, hands down.

To tell the truth, I was so green at the time I didn't even know goats needed worm treatments. And thankfully I never had any problems before then. I had the Alpines a year before I got the Boer, with nothing ever coming up.

The buck caught them first (maybe had them when I bought him and my lack of worming let them overtake him?), and cydectin took care of it. I did not introduce a worming cycle at the time (only 3 goats and I was more comfortable just checking them all than treating prophylacticly), but cydectin never worked again. After that the problem spread year to year. Ivermectin worked well for two years, then Ivomec+ worked for one year, then nothing until I tried Molly's Herbals.

Could easily be him, could be that one section of pasture. Come to think of it, that piece of pasture never had cows on it in my lifetime that I can remember. Probably not in 50-60 years easy. If they came from there what awful thing had been incubating? Feels like a farm life version of Alien.


----------



## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

Having goats without some worms really isn't a realistic scenario. So the goal isn't having no worms; the goal is for your goats' worms to not get out of control. There are many different strategies to do this. American Consortium for Small Ruminant Parasite Control operates a website and email list with many, many resources and articles including free FAMACHA training, here: https://www.wormx.info/

Some of the things I've learned there...
-remember, some worms will survive no matter what you do. Total absence of worms isn't a realistic goal, control of them is.
-chemically worm only the goats who need it.
-rotating species between pastures helps
-be on top of body condition and FAMACHA scores. Fecal egg counts (FEC) are helpful but not the whole story.
-learned to do my own fecals. Makes it economical to do whenever I suspect someone is wormy, select the correct wormer, and the turn-around time is nonexistent .
-never worm your whole herd with any chemical wormer all at the same time, as this practice can result in a herd that has a worm population resistant to that chemical wormer family.



still_learning said:


> cydectin never worked again. After that the problem spread year to year. Ivermectin worked well for two years, then Ivomec+ worked for one year, then nothing until I tried Molly's Herbals.


Cydectin, Ivermectin, and Ivomec+ are all from the same family of wormers (macrolide family), they all attack worms in the same way. Typically any population that has resistance to one of the macrolides pretty much has resistance to the others, or will very soon because if they can survive one, they're well set up to survive the others in the same family. Does that make sense?

I use chemical wormers if/when I need to, but the majority of my herd are maintained well on herbal wormers. Most have never had any chemical wormer, ever. So sorry for your horrific experience!! Anyhow, much more info there (at the wormx site above) than I could possibly even retain, much less type at you.


----------



## Kaigypsygoats (Jan 10, 2018)

I was thinking of doing herbal dewormers as well as keeping the chemical ones on hand. I have experience from worming my horse but not the goats. I use to cycle through the wormer on Kelly. Which herbal wormers do you use? I was going to do rounds between Molly's herbals, LoH and Fir Meadow.

Thank you for sharing this website as well; all the information I can learn will only help in the end.



Kath G. said:


> Having goats without some worms really isn't a realistic scenario. So the goal isn't having no worms; the goal is for your goats' worms to not get out of control. There are many different strategies to do this. American Consortium for Small Ruminant Parasite Control operates a website and email list with many, many resources and articles including free FAMACHA training, here: https://www.wormx.info/
> 
> Some of the things I've learned there...
> -remember, some worms will survive no matter what you do. Total absence of worms isn't a realistic goal, control of them is.
> ...


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I only have experience with Molly's. She has 2 formulations that you are supposed to cycle through (they work together)


----------



## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

I have used Molly's and LoH, both with good results; I'm currently using Ramhead and have been very happy with both their product and their extremely attentive customer service.

I know cycling through used to be recommended, but I know it's not now. It tends to breed resistance to all three classes of wormers simultaneously... I'm looking for documentation of where I got that...


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Kath G. said:


> ...cycling through... breed resistance to all three classes of wormers simultaneously




This is so. Current wisdom is to use one wormer (for that parasite) until it no longer works. Excellent caution, because we are running out of wormers.

Management is still more important than worming, though. (imho) We can't win this Arms Race against the ability of bacteria and parasites to develop defenses.


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I have no clue how or why all that message was struck out. I did not mean to do that.


----------



## Kath G. (Jul 13, 2017)

Ha. Finally found it.

https://www.wormx.info/changingdogma accessed 2/6/18; exerpts below.

"Many flocks or herds have issues with dewormers that no longer work. The American Consortium for Small Ruminant Parasite Control (ACSRPC) has reversed the recommendations of many veterinarians and parasitologists that were prevalent prior to 2000 and still advocated by a minority today.

Do not deworm all sheep or goats before moving to a clean pasture

Do not deworm all ewes or does prior to breeding

Do not deworm all ewes or does at lambing/kidding

Do not deworm all lambs or kids in the mob every few weeks during the summer.

Do not rotate dewormers on a yearly basis or between each usage.
The final "Do not." Do not rotate dewormers. Using several different dewormers a year results in the worms in a sheep operation acquiring more and more resistance to all classes of dewormers faster (if it has not already occurred). Population geneticists predict that it is better to use a class of dewormer until it no longer works, and then rotate to a new dewormer. This will keep dewormers in your management tool box for a longer time. If and when we do get a new dewormer, use it as your last resort and never use it to treat all animals in the flock at once."


----------



## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

Hey mariarose told me about this thread! Thanks for telling me! I live in East Tn and raise Kikos that I milk. I tried Nubians and just couldn't mess with them they got too wormy and I couldn't get anyone to settle. I had one doe that kidded last year and she is a Purebred Kiko. I milked her last year once a day and got quite a bit off of her over 16 oz a day and I didn't even milk her out all the way! Now she has twins this year and is being extremely stubborn and not letting down her milk even though she has way more than what her twins can drink! I love my Kikos because they are extremely parasite resistent, I don't have to trim hooves hardly ever, and they are great milkers! Most people think oh they're a meat goat so they don't produce a lot of milk or that their udder/teats aren't great for milking! That is completely opposite! In order for them to have big meaty kids they need to have good tears and udder or their kids will have a difficult time thus them not growing and gaining like they're supposed to! Anyways that's just my two cents on Kikos I think they're great milk goats along with being good meaty goats!


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

JK_Farms said:


> ...my two cents on Kikos I think they're great milk goats along with being good meaty goats!


Thanks for your input, JK. How long of a lactation does your doe have? Like how long after kidding does she want to dry up? Or do you know, yet?

I wonder if crossing a Kiko with a dairy breed known for long lactations would increase that length of time?


----------



## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

She had a lactation of about 10 months she never really truly dried up


----------



## flatmountain (Aug 14, 2010)

I also started with nubians and NDs crossed. To be honest my initial tragedies were more dog attack related than worms. It just made the worm issues more frustrating because it feels like I've just have problems from the start. I was already wanting to cross dairy and meat but the boer goats I hear have big worm issues now. At least my nearby farmers complain of it. I recall they were considered hardy a few decades back but I guess they have been bred for bulk a lot and became too popular. I had dismissed Kiko as meat only and kind of outliers. But I am big time rethinking that. For now my mini lamancha does well but I will see how she does with kidding and milk in 2 months. Maybe I will try the kiko? How was the milk? Did you taste it?


----------



## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

My Kiko/Dairy cross milk tastes really good. Not as sinfully fattening and luscious as my Boer or Pygmy milk, but a lot more of it. Pygmy milk reminds me of Half and Half.

Milk will taste good, I think, if the does are healthy, fed well, and have plenty of the right minerals.


----------



## JK_Farms (Nov 12, 2016)

To me tastes just like goat milk!


----------



## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

mariarose said:


> Milk will taste good, I think, if the does are healthy, fed well, and have plenty of the right minerals.


This is exactly what I've found as well.


----------

