# Horns?



## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Hi all,

I'm delurking because I'm really struggling with the whole horn situation (I have Nigerians). I'm hoping this isn't going to be a big war, I'm not looking to start a debate and am really trying to sort the whole issue out for myself.

I have had meat goats and will have fibre goats, as well as my beloved Nigerians and meat goats and fibre goats aren't dehorned (and fibre goats you handle almost as much as Nigerians and I did handle my meat goats all of the time) but you don't dehorn them. I've also had horned (Icelandic) sheep.

So, after helping a friend with disbudding and considering getting back into breeding, I've done tonnes of research and came up with the fact that people dehorn because they are worried about their own safety with regards to horns, they're worried about goat safety (there's also a story about someone they heard of having a goat stuck) and, what comes up the most is that it's a convention - you can't show and fewer people will buy if you leave the horns intact.

In defense of horns - there are as many stories of goats using them for protection as there are about them getting stuck, they use them as tools (back scratching is mentioned often), they're known to be important for thermoregulation and play an important role in the metabolism of minerals and frankly (ime) make great handles. Also, it seems that disbudding/dehorning is a North American convention - in the UK, for example, where you have to have a vet do it, horned dairy goats are far more common. And - you don't have to worry about scurs!

I guess what my question is is - aside from the convention around showing/selling, is there a reason that dairy goat horns (which look pretty much like the standard goat horns) are somehow more dangerous than other goat (or sheep) horns? I'm not asking to be facetious. I'm leaning towards not disbudding but my choice needs to be a sensible one. If I'm not going to do it, it needs to be a good decision (and more me, showing/selling isn't a good enough decision) and if I am going to do it, there needs to be a solid reason for it. 

I appreciate your thoughts. 

Thanks.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Well, I can see that this topic has been done to death. My first search turned up almost nothing but a second one (for horn and that's it) showed lots. 

I won't delete the post because I do welcome any further discussion/opinions etc. but won't be surprised if there aren't any lol! I also wondered if anyone who has horned goats could comment about milking them. I have read a few things from people who stopped disbudding but went back to it because of problems on the milking stand. 

I do have to say that this issue seems like it could be a heated one but the threads I'm reading all look really respectful -that makes me appreciate the community that much more.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Keeping horns or disbudding is truly a personal choice and you have to decide for yourself what is best. What do you plan to do with the Nigerians? If you sell them, then I would find out what sells the best. Disbudded sells best in my area because showing is huge and those that just want pets, don't want horns. My personal preference is disbudded.

I would say research in your area would help you to make the best decision. What sells in my area may not sell in yours.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

I don't really know why dairy goats are dehorned more than other goats. Perhaps its because many large farms have them in such small packed areas that they fight more thus sustaining more injuries. Not to mention what an unhappy horned goat can do to fencing. Where as more hair and meat breed goats are kept in pasture situations. I'm personally pro-horns. Until the polled goats become as popular as polled cows I'm keeping horned goats. They are part of the animal and serve many uses. I had a disbudded goat. She could hardly handle this Arizona heat because she didn't have her horns for extra heat regulating. She also was more apt to bite and push her head on me because she didn't have horns. Not to mention they make good handles and look beautiful. I trim my goats horns so they are not sharp and have had no injuries to goats or humans. They respect me and don't fight near me or hit me.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

This is something that is a personal choice, and both have good reasoning. For me, the risks outway the benefits. We have therepeutic students coming out and visiting on a regular basis. I cannot risk a horn to the face of a kid. Because we teach our girls to be respectful, I don't think they would do that on purpose, but accidents happen. My herd queen actually is the only one who would be dangerous with horns. She doesn't like strangers.

I do not want them getting hung up on fences, and during fights there is much less chance of bad damange and miscarriage without the horns. Some goats have flipped kids over their head. I've heard from other owners who have had horned goats in the past that wish their kid had been disbudded.

So that's my reasoning. That said, there are many people who have horned goats and do well with them. Horns do serve their purpose, they're just not for me. (=


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## Jdyson (Jul 20, 2011)

I personally like them. I have one with horns and he is fine. I think if he is born with them, it was for a good reason.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I have a mixed herd of horned, polled and disbudded... I personally do like horns on my goats BUT after 13 years of seeing just how downright nasty certain goats can be towards herd mates, I have found ways to keep them from causing injurys. 

When it comes to Dairy goats having more emphasis on disbudding, it is mainly because the "most valuable" asset that goat has is her udder, and being full and "out there" unprotected, horns can and do cause serious injury, forever affecting the production of the doe and sometimes even her death from infection. Granted, most of these issues are caused by crowded pens etc but the personality of the goat also contributes to how those horns are "used".
I'm one that will do what I can to accommodate horned goats, fencing, housing, general management etc. are extra's that bald goats don't need to have considered and not everyone is willing to learn how to respect a goats horns


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## Farmgirl675 (Oct 21, 2010)

I have a mixed herd of horned and dehorned (not my doing), I prefer to leave them with their horns. I milk my does and have had no issues with the horns in the stand. My herd has plenty of room to stay out of each others way and they know who is the first to "pull a horn" on them and they avoid her. I don't use them as handles or play with them in any way from day one, I feel that teaches them that it is OK to use the horns on humans, of course accidents happen but have not had any major injuries and all guests are told to be aware of the horns and children are not left unsupervised with them. As far as a "marketing" aspect I offer to disbud if they would like but otherwise all leave with horns intact.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> I would say research in your area would help you to make the best decision. What sells in my area may not sell in yours.


Thanks Karen. I guess where I'm stuck is that I'm an oppositional sort of being and don't want to decide based on convention or what's best for the market so much as what's best for them - that's why I'm stuck lol! Thanks for replying.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

xymenah said:


> I don't really know why dairy goats are dehorned more than other goats. Perhaps its because many large farms have them in such small packed areas that they fight more thus sustaining more injuries. Not to mention what an unhappy horned goat can do to fencing. Where as more hair and meat breed goats are kept in pasture situations.


Thanks so much for this. It's very similar to the conversation I had with a friend who also has Nigerians and hers are in close quarters. She said that if she had my space she wouldn't dehorn.

Here I worry about the temperature fluctuations. We have very cold winters and very hot summers.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> This is something that is a personal choice, and both have good reasoning. For me, the risks outway the benefits. (=


Thanks so much. I suspect my history with horned sheep - and believe me, there are similar debates about them! - has coloured my experiences. I can see that if I hadn't had that experience I likely wouldn't even be thinking about this lol!


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Jdyson said:


> I personally like them. I have one with horns and he is fine. I think if he is born with them, it was for a good reason.


Thanks -that is one of the other things I worry about. I will have a mixed herd so... it's nice to know it can work out well!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It comes down to what people will buy. If you want to leave the horns on but no one wants horned goats, then they won't sell. That is why it is important to see what sells best. If you really want horned goats, then keep your goats horned but offer disbudded goats to people who prefer it. If everyone wants horned goats in your area, then no problem. 

Would you rather be oppositional or sell goats? When it comes to marketing and sales, what is wanted and in demand is what you have to do if you want sales. Is it fair, no. But that is the way it is. You can always just put your excess goats in the freezer if you really feel strongly about keeping horns and the sales aren't there.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

liz said:


> I have a mixed herd of horned, polled and disbudded... I personally do like horns on my goats BUT after 13 years of seeing just how downright nasty certain goats can be towards herd mates, I have found ways to keep them from causing injurys.
> 
> When it comes to Dairy goats having more emphasis on disbudding, it is mainly because the "most valuable" asset that goat has is her udder, and being full and "out there" unprotected, horns can and do cause serious injury, forever affecting the production of the doe and sometimes even her death from infection. Granted, most of these issues are caused by crowded pens etc but the personality of the goat also contributes to how those horns are "used".
> I'm one that will do what I can to accommodate horned goats, fencing, housing, general management etc. are extra's that bald goats don't need to have considered and not everyone is willing to learn how to respect a goats horns


Thanks Liz. I hadn't thought of it that way but it makes sense. One of the main things I've heard about is "but what if one damages another's udder"?

I also agree re:temperament. I had one ewe that was quickly eliminated from the flock because of her bad temper. I don't think the horns made a difference either way - she was just perpetually cranky! But - the horns gave me something to grab when she'd make a move for me. I've been trying to imagine how I could do that with a polled/dehorned goat. With the polled sheep I could, in desperation, grab their coat at least.

The other thing that I'd forgotten about was my headgate. I could never use I with polled sheep but the horned sheep were trapped like nobodies business! I'd be able to use it again with my horned goats.

All that being said, I don't plan to keep any animal that's dangerous. The ocassional obnoxious moment is forgivable but a pattern of behaviour means she'll be somewhere that's not in my runs.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

flannelberry said:


> =
> All that being said, I don't plan to keep any animal that's dangerous. The ocassional obnoxious moment is forgivable but a pattern of behaviour means she'll be somewhere that's not in my runs.


And that's the long and short of it :laugh: A goat will be dangerous with or without horns if it has that kind of personality.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Farmgirl675 said:


> I have a mixed herd of horned and dehorned (not my doing), I prefer to leave them with their horns. I milk my does and have had no issues with the horns in the stand.


Thanks. That really was my other question because the other thing I've been told/read is that horns present a risk while milking. Given how my girls are 100% focused on their grain while on the stand, I couldn't imagine it and am glad to know it's been no biggie for you.

That's a good point about not using the horns as handles. I'll have to think about it. I didn't have trouble with the sheep but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

You have to do what works best for your situation. I have these bruises at times on my legs but only because I sometimes get poked by their horns on accident durring a feeding frenzy. It is important to realize if you do keep horns- children have to be taught to be careful of them as they are at eye level with the 'kid's' little horns. They are something to always be careful of. There are times I wish all of our does had no horns at all! I think that it would be better for little children. We raise the Boers and I personally just can't stand to have a buck without horns. He is so proud of his horns and I think it takes part of his dignified look away. Boer bucks just look so insecure without their horns. I can see why people want to keep a hornless buck tho- they can bang and bang on things.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

There are so many good things about Does having horns too. Once they go into their hoof trimming 'stock', they can't get out because of their horns.


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## Arkie (Sep 25, 2012)

We only have two milk goats one with, the other without. When the polled goat finally learned the other was "queen" she gives her a wide enough berth there's very little danger of her being harmed. And that doesn't mean she lives in fear, just has learned not to challenge.

Bob


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I have a few dairy cross that have the horns of a dairy, I dont like that they go straight up only becuase of the kids safty, but nothing duct tape cant take care of . As for in the milk stand I dont see how horns would cause a issue, I have a beef blocking stand that I use to trim hoofs and its still the same idea, head goes in and a bar slides over and keeps them there, no issue with that. Now ksalvagno is right on what people will buy. I have boers and crosses and I like my girls with horns, I like the idea that they have something to try and protect them selfs with, but I sell my kids at the sale and have noticed that the doelings that have no horns bring a little more money, and I have to admit, I think they look better, but am still going to have all my does with horns but I think I am going to start disbudding, well try, this year and see how it goes. It is totally up to you and even though I want my does to have horns my queen is a hornless dairy goat that is one mean girl and will fight any thing that comes near her herd and wins.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

Its not the actual milking that is the problem with horned milking goats its their udder. A hit to the udder from another goats horns can cause damage. I had one of my does hit in the udder by the herd queen. She gave bloody milk for two days. I has only happened once so its not too much of a problem for me. But I agree temperament is what its all about. Beep(the herd queen) in all honesty probably shouldn't be around because she has a terrible attitude towards other goats and humans besides me. She also tears up my fencing and beats up my other goats but she was my first goat and has a special place in my heart. This is an example of what she did to my gate. As you can see I already half way fixed the bottom but that was torn off too.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

The milking part with a horned doe is not an issue for me, my head gate fits them well and they have never turned head to attempt tonail me...in fact, I've never had a goat who used their horns on me in an agressive way, my old doe likes to rub her ear up and down my leg and sometimes gets carried away and ends up hooking my pants leg with a horn tip, when I first started milking my girls, Bootsie and my late Dolly, I did not have a milk stand, Boots was my "loved to be milked" girl and would stand quietly with her feed, my Dolly however fought me twice a day for 2 weeks until she learned to stand...I had to straddle her back facing her tail with my knees in her sides and milk with one hand while she repeatedly brought her head and horns up and back against my backside and legs...those 2 weeks I had ALOT of explaining to do when I would wear shorts as she left some awful bruises on me. After that, she was almost as good as Bootsie and turned out to be my most capacious milker.
I do not and have never used their horns to catch them... mine are food driven as well as pets so theres no need for me to have to manhandle them. I do use duct tape across horns when someone gets their dander up...it almost shames them into being good too. Once I use tape, they refuse to even look at me or even come to me they hate it that much and it does not cause them pain at all.


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## Shellshocker66 (Mar 19, 2012)

I started with horned goats thinking it was best to keep them natural and they would help them to stay safe if a predator came around....

So my herd queen butted the heck out of everyone with her horns and would scare me with her trying to throw them up in the air. But she loved me and it wasn't till one day when I was petting her and she reared her head backwards and caught me in the chest that I realized how dangerous horns can be (especially if the owner is short like me). I was lucky to only take a glancing blow but she left a heck of a mark on the side of my chest and a full on hit she probably would of punctured my chest wall. 

So I got to thinking about anyone visiting and what if that happened to them and how she beat the heck out of the other goats and well I made the decision to rehome her with her kid to a home that they were the only goats. I also later sold her other horned kid to a two goat home. Those folks wanted horned goats and more power to them as I believe it should always be a choice on what you want.

Myself I would never have horned goats again.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> Would you rather be oppositional or sell goats?


Oppositional, of course lol 

Seriously, I can see what you're saying, it's just not where my head is (ever) at. A lot of people I know disbud because of the market. I'd rather have surplus goats in the freezer (and there's a big demand for the meat here so that could be a good side bar) than do something I didn't feel ok about. I'd also rather breed less often/have fewer babies and take longer (if needed) to sell.

My feeling is, the more I read and speak to others about this, that if we continue to do something because of market pressure,t he market will never change. That's just me - I also know lots of people who are fine with disbudding and it works for them. I do agree 'to each their own', I just feel like I have to make the best decision for my goats and I and that market pressure can't be one of the factors.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

packhillboers said:


> It is important to realize if you do keep horns- children have to be taught to be careful of them as they are at eye level with the 'kid's' little horns.


I so agree - I learned that I just have to teach kids to be careful period; that was the benefit of having an evil ewe!


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

xymenah said:


> She also tears up my fencing and beats up my other goats but she was my first goat and has a special place in my heart. This is an example of what she did to my gate. As you can see I already half way fixed the bottom but that was torn off too.


OMG - I can so relate. My evil ewe lived here a heck of a lot longer than she should have for that very reason. By longer I mean years lol. It's hard when they're in the first bunch!


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Shellshocker66 said:


> Myself I would never have horned goats again.


Thanks Shelley - I do appreciate you sharing that. I am still on the fence - leaning towards horns but not all of the way there and having information from people like you is important.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

liz said:


> I do not and have never used their horns to catch them... mine are food driven as well as pets so theres no need for me to have to manhandle them. I do use duct tape across horns when someone gets their dander up...it almost shames them into being good too. Once I use tape, they refuse to even look at me or even come to me they hate it that much and it does not cause them pain at all.


I was laughing about the tape! I was picture the Tape of Shame-you could make a cartoon out of it.

I didn't regularly use the horns but... I did have to use them to hold one of my ewes who would reject her babies and I would force her to nurse. Hated it but it worked. And one memorable time when I was in with my boys and my suck, lovey, adorable flock sire snorted and started to charge me which scared me half to death. I grabbed his horns and straddled his back, controlling his head with his horns until I got to the gate. After that and while still TOTALLY rattled I was trying to figure out what had happened and I realized it was the empty feed bag flapping in my hand had spooked him. So, we did some training with that but that day, I was so glad he had something for me to grab onto.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Thanks so much to all of you. I've really appreciated your thoughts and getting to know you a bit.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

If your worried about kids being poked in the face with their horns this always works.










Tennis balls worked for all of two seconds for me.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

xymenah said:


> If your worried about kids being poked in the face with their horns this always works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness - that is awesome!


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I had a crazy alpine he/she goat here and she had really pointy horns. Very narrow at the poll. Not only did she "hook" me regularly with those pointy horns, when I was just trying to be nice and scratching her head, she threw her head back and caught my hand between the narrow place and almost broke a couple of fingers.

I have fiber goats, cashmere, and their horns are totally different. Wider at the poll, spread farther apart at the tips, and the tips are flat and blunt. My fiber goats don't use their horns on humans, and not much with other goats. In any case...if you go out to feed...I am really careful...it's like "dueling swords" out there. Not purposeful...but...you can be injured by accident as easily as on purpose.

I think that since a lot of miniature goats are intended to be "pets" for children...it's just not safe to leave them intact. I'd hate to think a goat I sold accidentally hurt someone with their horns. So, I choose dis-budding. We were doing 3 kids saturday, DH said "remember when we first started doing this...we burned each other...fumbled around...now...we have a little system and it goes smoothly...as little distress as possible...we're getting good at this!"


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## primal woman (Sep 17, 2011)

I don't want horns. Safety for me and other humans first, then fencing costs which are HIGH is second, then of course the goats don't need horns. Horns are not the only way to cool off, if they were, then there would be no such thing as polled!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I like my boers horns, they are also a radiator, keeps them cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter. That is why horns are there. 
I have a hot line, so they do not get hung up. With horns, you always have to be aware of what you are doing around them, sometimes horns can hurt you by accident but, I have been lucky so far. I also like the look of them. It is preference, I know some, that will dehorn their boer goats. The funny part of it is, a long time ago, I went to a breeder that had a scale that I used to weigh the wethers, well, guess what was grabbed first, to get them on the scales, LOL? The horns~!, she grabbed the horns but, she dehorns all her goats. I cracked up about it, because that is another thing, that is easier to do "hold them".


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## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

I do not like horns on my dairy goats
1-the horns dont fit throught the milk stand 
2 La Manchas look silly with horns 
3 I almost had my eye poked out by a sweet alpine cross with horns-a sweetie who suddenly threw her head back 
BUT I have taken care of a herd of milking Nigis who were super sweet and I never even knew they had horns as they were so tiny-the bucks on the other hand had enormous horns
JMHO!


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## BlueEyedFainters (Aug 18, 2012)

I'm a newb to goats and never knew before purchasing (pinch decision) that you could get de-horned goats. Mine are horned. I've had multiple people ask when I'm going to have them de-horned and I just look at them like, 'what for?'. I've learned over the past couple months form visiting other farms and such that disposition is key, as well as if they didn't need them- they never would have been born with them. Same goes in dog-territory with cropping ears: I don't agree with it. They're there to serve a purpose- leave them be. 
My goats are docile and handleable for the most part- just be about your senses when handling a horned goat and I see no problem in leaving them.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Thanks everyone, for your input and the conversation. i still wouldn't say I've made a firm decision I just know what ever way I go, I'll have plenty of support from all of you! Thanks again.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

There is really a lot of opinions. I agree with if you're selling, what is selling in your area. I also agree with Boer bucks having horns JMHO- my poor buck was de-horned and just doesn't look right. One of my does is horned the other two aren't (they each came that way). My ND does are all de-horned, one buckling is (has nasty scurs _I didn't do him; but I'm looking at banding them), the other buckling has horns - mainly because I had some issues and couldn't get them done early. 
As for acting like a radiator I agree. As for not needing it or there wouldn't be polled, I wonder and maybe someone can answer. It was my understanding you never breed polled to polled? I know with gloster canary's (the one with little wigs) you don't breed to crested to crested. The top breeder in the country explained that the crested glosters are actually a defect of sorts -it's an opening in the skull which is why breeding crested to crested can result in bald babies and higher chance of mortatliy. Yes this is kind of off subject, my point being if someone knows is a polled goat a similar situation??
My other question is I have to check about horned goats being shown, be it 4h, ABGA, USBGA, ADGA. Are horns allowed? Does it vary from association to association or even from one local to another???
Does anyone know??:chin:


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## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

You could just ask the buyers which they prefer and keep your breeding herd with their horns.


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

We have horned, disbudded, and polled. Sorry we also have a unicorn. My grade does have horns, including the herd queen. My registered does are disbudded and polled. Well my kids show and thats the rules. Kind of disapointing, you can show cattle with horns(coming from a dairy cattle back ground, in my opinon way more dangerous). The brass balls used for cattle could compatable with goat horns. I don't know I have never tried. I have 2 registered bucks one with horns one without. I like the horns, because I don't keep collars on the boys I think its a rutting buck strangulation hazard, so I like to use horns as a control if need be. If you muckle ahold of a naughty rutting buck by the horn you have his full attention, he will go anywhere you want, collar and a leash in rut? nope his attention is else where. The horned goats tend to lay off the fence when they have an itch, they are more confident. 

My disbudded goats are beautiful, but they are show goats, and anything you think is worth showing is worth disbudding, rather then de-horning later. I think that is a an emergency thing only. If you are looking to breed for show quality animals then disbudded is the norm. Although I often wonder what the show world is missing, by not allowing horned animals.


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## primal woman (Sep 17, 2011)

clearwtrbeach said:


> I wonder and maybe someone can answer. It was my understanding you never breed polled to polled?
> ?:chin:


 Polled to polled:
1/8 of the kids will be normal, horned males.
1/8 of the kids will be normal, horned females.
2/8 (1/4) of the kids will be normal, polled males.
2/8 (1/4) of the kids will be normal, polled females.
1/8 of the kids will be males with shortened reproductive life
1/8 of the kids will be females that are masculinized to hermaphrodites.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

clearwtrbeach said:


> My other question is I have to check about horned goats being shown, be it 4h, ABGA, USBGA, ADGA. Are horns allowed? Does it vary from association to association or even from one local to another???
> Does anyone know??:chin:


As I understand it, you can't show dairy goats with horns. It would be nice to see that changed though and I can't unless people with horned goats start pushing.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

JaLyn said:


> You could just ask the buyers which they prefer and keep your breeding herd with their horns.


I considered this but I think if I were pro-disbudding I would just be. I don't feel comfortable doing it unless I'm comfortable doing it, iykwim. Also I don't think I can let the market be the reason.

I did read a blog of a "pro horn" breeder and she allows purchaser to make arrangements for disbudding but won't do it herself. I think I might do that. And in some cases, she lets the babies go early (like if someone needs a bottle baby for some reason) so they can take care of it.

I'd be open to discussing it just don't think I'd do it.

Thanks though because that feels closer to the middle ground.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Flannelberry: The allowing the buyers to disbud will only work if they get the baby within a few days -- that is when most breeds need to be disbudded. Nigerian Dwarves and Pygmies can sometimes wait up till two weeks. :thumb:


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

HerdQueen said:


> Although I often wonder what the show world is missing, by not allowing horned animals.


Me too.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> Flannelberry: The allowing the buyers to disbud will only work if they get the baby within a few days -- that is when most breeds need to be disbudded. Nigerian Dwarves and Pygmies can sometimes wait up till two weeks. :thumb:


Thank Woodhaven  I did know that. That's why they could make arrangements (like with our vet) or, if it seemed ok, take a bottle baby (although I don't love that).

My plan is to put it on the webpage so people go in knowing - you know? I figure they can make an informed choice right away then. It's also made a big difference to my breeding plans. I think I'll breed one doe at a time so I don't get over run (which is good for milking too).

And I was just reading the butchering threads because I think that's a reality I need to consider as well.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

flannelberry said:


> As I understand it, you can't show dairy goats with horns. It would be nice to see that changed though and I can't unless people with horned goats start pushing.


I definitely agree. Although I disbud because I feel that is best for our herd, it is not best for everyone's herd, and it's wrong not to allow horned goats to be shown. It's unfair -- disbudding is the owner's choice, and whether or not a goat is disbudded does not make the goat better or worse. Sorta peeves me off.



flannelberry said:


> _Thank Woodhaven I did know that. That's why they could make arrangements (like with our vet) or, if it seemed ok, take a bottle baby (although I don't love that).
> 
> My plan is to put it on the webpage so people go in knowing - you know? I figure they can make an informed choice right away then. It's also made a big difference to my breeding plans. I think I'll breed one doe at a time so I don't get over run (which is good for milking too).
> 
> And I was just reading the butchering threads because I think that's a reality I need to consider as well._


Gotcha! Good plan, that. And you should be proud, you came to your own educated conclusion on what's best for your herd :thumb:


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> Gotcha! Good plan, that. And you should be proud, you came to your own educated conclusion on what's best for your herd :thumb:


Thanks Woodhaven - I really appreciate that. I think the ability to have this discussion here has really helped me to come to my own decision. And I don't have to worry about posting if I change my mind either lol.

Maybe we can start the movement towards horned goats showing? Why not? IIRC they show meat goats with horns...


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

flannelberry said:


> Maybe we can start the movement towards horned goats showing? Why not? IIRC they show meat goats with horns...


I would back that movement 110%. They don't have the right to pressure people to disbud, just because that's their personal preference.


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## Logcabinmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Hello everyone - I bought 2 doelings last year as a complete goat newbie and they came horned. I wish they hadn't, because one of them is brutal. They are Alpine/Saanen crosses. One of the does is not very nice, and constantly tries to - I guess 'play'? with us when we go in the pen. She jumps up on her hind legs, and tries to ram us with her head. Doesn't like to be rubbed, or have her hooves done, and until I read this thread I didn't realize that goats could be culled for behavior - it just never occurred to me. We have been trying to deal with her but my youngest daughter (8) has gotten hit a couple times, and the doe has come after me a few times now. I make myself as big as possible and don't back down, but I don't trust her at all - never turn my back on her. From what I've read here, I don't think taking off her horns would make any difference - she would still try and attack us. So maybe it's into the freezer for her. Would my other doe get along on her own ok? I would like to breed her and keep a baby of hers for company. These were originally supposed to be dairy goats for us. This second doe is very sweet, comes up for hugs and leans into us.


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Logcabinmom said:


> Hello everyone - I bought 2 doelings last year as a complete goat newbie and they came horned. I wish they hadn't, because one of them is brutal. They are Alpine/Saanen crosses. One of the does is not very nice, and constantly tries to - I guess 'play'? with us when we go in the pen. She jumps up on her hind legs, and tries to ram us with her head. Doesn't like to be rubbed, or have her hooves done, and until I read this thread I didn't realize that goats could be culled for behavior - it just never occurred to me. We have been trying to deal with her but my youngest daughter (8) has gotten hit a couple times, and the doe has come after me a few times now. I make myself as big as possible and don't back down, but I don't trust her at all - never turn my back on her. From what I've read here, I don't think taking off her horns would make any difference - she would still try and attack us. So maybe it's into the freezer for her. Would my other doe get along on her own ok? I would like to breed her and keep a baby of hers for company. These were originally supposed to be dairy goats for us. This second doe is very sweet, comes up for hugs and leans into us.


You can cull for behavior, but there is a trick I learned from another breeder you can try. Take a large cup of water of grab a bucket of water and dump it on her head when acts like this. It wont take her long to figure it out since goats hate water. I have used this trick and it has worked.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

Logcabinmom said:


> Hello everyone - I bought 2 doelings last year as a complete goat newbie and they came horned. I wish they hadn't, because one of them is brutal. They are Alpine/Saanen crosses. One of the does is not very nice, and constantly tries to - I guess 'play'? with us when we go in the pen. She jumps up on her hind legs, and tries to ram us with her head. Doesn't like to be rubbed, or have her hooves done, and until I read this thread I didn't realize that goats could be culled for behavior - it just never occurred to me. We have been trying to deal with her but my youngest daughter (8) has gotten hit a couple times, and the doe has come after me a few times now. I make myself as big as possible and don't back down, but I don't trust her at all - never turn my back on her. From what I've read here, I don't think taking off her horns would make any difference - she would still try and attack us. So maybe it's into the freezer for her. Would my other doe get along on her own ok? I would like to breed her and keep a baby of hers for company. These were originally supposed to be dairy goats for us. This second doe is very sweet, comes up for hugs and leans into us.


A squirt bottle works too. If she is actually hitting you its probably not just play. She needs to know aggression is not in any way shape or form acceptable. If she starts to rear up immediately squirt her in the face. My goats respect me enough that the will not even play fight with each other too near to me. I have taught them that even if they don't mean to hit me with their horns its still unacceptable. I had one goat that if she didn't want to do something or was mad at me she would slam into me with her horns. I have a scar on my inner left arm from her where her horn punctured the skin and was a mere half inch from my artery. Needless to say she is no longer around. If her temperament doesn't get better I would either sell her to someone and make them aware of her problems or off to freezer camp.


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## Arkie (Sep 25, 2012)

Logcabinmom said:


> Hello everyone - I bought 2 doelings last year as a complete goat newbie and they came horned. I wish they hadn't, because one of them is brutal. They are Alpine/Saanen crosses. One of the does is not very nice, and constantly tries to - I guess 'play'? with us when we go in the pen. She jumps up on her hind legs, and tries to ram us with her head. Doesn't like to be rubbed, or have her hooves done, and until I read this thread I didn't realize that goats could be culled for behavior - it just never occurred to me. We have been trying to deal with her but my youngest daughter (8) has gotten hit a couple times, and the doe has come after me a few times now. I make myself as big as possible and don't back down, but I don't trust her at all - never turn my back on her. From what I've read here, I don't think taking off her horns would make any difference - she would still try and attack us. So maybe it's into the freezer for her. Would my other doe get along on her own ok? I would like to breed her and keep a baby of hers for company. These were originally supposed to be dairy goats for us. This second doe is very sweet, comes up for hugs and leans into us.


OR perhaps a bit of President Theodore Roosevelt's political policy; "Speak softly and carry a big stick"! 

Bob


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## Logcabinmom (Sep 23, 2011)

My friend whom I bought the goats from is advising me to use a cattle prod the next time she tries this - what does everyone here think?


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## Texas.girl (Dec 20, 2011)

One author I read is adamant that dairy goats be dehorned. She says the horns can pierce the udders of other goats. No idea how often this happens but she seemed to think it was a big issue. That is the only reason I would think of dehorning a goat. I have all abandoned bottle fed babies who all have their horns. I do not plan on ever dehorning my goaties unless something happens to make me change my mind.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

Texas.girl said:


> One author I read is adamant that dairy goats be dehorned. She says the horns can pierce the udders of other goats. No idea how often this happens but she seemed to think it was a big issue. That is the only reason I would think of dehorning a goat. I have all abandoned bottle fed babies who all have their horns. I do not plan on ever dehorning my goaties unless something happens to make me change my mind.


Yes udders defiantly can be pierced but in all honesty it A) doesn't happen that often B)tipping the horns can help prevent it. There are many large dairies in France with all horned goats that have no problems.


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## Texas.girl (Dec 20, 2011)

Logcabinmom said:


> Hello everyone - I bought 2 doelings last year as a complete goat newbie and they came horned. I wish they hadn't, because one of them is brutal. They are Alpine/Saanen crosses. One of the does is not very nice, and constantly tries to - I guess 'play'? with us when we go in the pen. She jumps up on her hind legs, and tries to ram us with her head. Doesn't like to be rubbed, or have her hooves done, and until I read this thread I didn't realize that goats could be culled for behavior - it just never occurred to me. We have been trying to deal with her but my youngest daughter (8) has gotten hit a couple times, and the doe has come after me a few times now. I make myself as big as possible and don't back down, but I don't trust her at all - never turn my back on her. From what I've read here, I don't think taking off her horns would make any difference - she would still try and attack us. So maybe it's into the freezer for her. Would my other doe get along on her own ok? I would like to breed her and keep a baby of hers for company. These were originally supposed to be dairy goats for us. This second doe is very sweet, comes up for hugs and leans into us.


A local rancher told me to get a stick and hit my doe on the horns. At the time she was showing dominace and even ran into me throwing me into the air. He said they really hate having their horns hit. I came home, found a stick and it only took a few wacks and her behavior started changing ASAP. Today she is the sweetest most well behaved queen around. You do not have to hit that hard to get the point around. Just a few wacks and they learn quickly. My goats can be acting up and all I have to do is grab a stick and the misbehavior stops immediately. So I have walking sticks lying around the place for immediate use.


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## Texas.girl (Dec 20, 2011)

xymenah said:


> Yes horns defiantly can be pierced but in all honesty it A) doesn't happen that often B)tipping the horns can help prevent it. There are many large dairies in France with all horned goats that have no problems.


Glad to hear that because I read that book after I aquired my petite dairy goat. Now I have no reason to be concerned when she becomes a mother.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Guys this is great info. I'm logging it away mentally just in case I end up with a horned goat someday :thumb:


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Logcabinmom said:


> One of the does is not very nice, and constantly tries to - I guess 'play'? with us when we go in the pen. She jumps up on her hind legs, and tries to ram us with her head. Doesn't like to be rubbed, or have her hooves done, and until I read this thread I didn't realize that goats could be culled for behavior - it just never occurred to me.


I have to tell you -not having read the rest of the responses - I just don't keep them if they're rough/aggressive/etc. The horns don't make a difference to the temperament imo.


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## flannelberry (Jun 3, 2012)

Texas.girl said:


> One author I read is adamant that dairy goats be dehorned. She says the horns can pierce the udders of other goats. No idea how often this happens but she seemed to think it was a big issue. That is the only reason I would think of dehorning a goat. I have all abandoned bottle fed babies who all have their horns. I do not plan on ever dehorning my goaties unless something happens to make me change my mind.


I have read that so many times and I agree it's a possibility however, you rarely meet someone to whom it has happened. When I was searching I found one thread when someone had a doe with an injured udder elsewhere but the poster finally conceded the injury to the udder could have been from a horn or a bad bit of fence or...


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