# Help me choose!



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

So I’m currently looking at getting on a waiting list for some lovely looking pairings. My only issue is that I simply cannot choose! All of them regardless of who I choose would improve my herd greatly, but of course who doesn’t want the best of the best? This is a breeder I found just recently but they’re close enough to me that convincing the rest of my family isn’t an issue. Plus, I’m liking what I’m seeing. Anywho, please give me your honest thoughts!

All photo credits go to Thunder Ridge Ranch.

*First pairing! *
Dam:















Sire:








Sires Dam:
















*Second Pairing!*

Dam:*














*
Sire:








sires dam and dam’s dam:








*Third Pairing will be below!*


----------



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

Dam:
















Sire:








Sires dam and daughter:


----------



## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

I love the third pair but that's me I like the silvery next to the black in the buck and the female has the gold in there!


----------



## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Hard choice though maybe @Dandy Hill Farm can give some input on conformation


----------



## Lil Boogie (Mar 24, 2021)

I would say either the last pair or second, although the first is quite nice, im leaning towards the 3rd pair. Such beautiful udders😍


----------



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm liking pairing two. It's super, super close though. They all look very nice. I'd go with two because I LOVE the udders behind the sire. I'm sure any of them would produce very nice kids.


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Wow, very nice Nigies there!!! Not only are these an improvement from your current herd, they are also a huge improvement from the previous pair you were considering!! Lovely!

Ok, I really love the body structure on both goats in the first pair - very well put together! And the udders on both sides look very nice as well! IMO, this pair (out of the three) is going to have the most body correct kids was well as some very nice udders!

Second pair: Okay, the udders on both sides are to die for!! Especially on the sire's side!! LOVE the udders from this pairing!! As far as body conformation goes, the buck looks very correct, but the doe has a few cons, very forward set front legs, and a weak chine, BUT the buck's legs are very well placed under his shoulders and he has a strong chine. So there is a good chance that the kids from this pair will be improved from their dam by their sire. And honestly, this pairing would be MY pick. I can't get over the fantastic udders and I have hope the kids will be very correct body wise (if so, they can thank their daddy - haha).

Third pair: I'm honestly not a big fan of this pair, but I wouldn't be too disappointed if they were my only option. Both the buck and doe have very forward set front legs and their chines could be stronger. I do really love the does udder, but the sire's dam's udder is not my favorite and IMO, it was not the best decision to put them together. Both udders have very small teats and the SD's udder has a very flat udder floor and her teats are too far to the side. Now, I assuming it IS her FF udder, so a lot could change and she does her udder is high with tight attachments so that's great, but I (personally) am not loving the small, wide set teats and very flat udder floor.

I'm sure @Jubillee will have some great advice!


----------



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Wow, very nice Nigies there!!! Not only are these an improvement from your current herd, they are also a huge improvement from the previous pair you were considering!! Lovely!
> 
> Ok, I really love the body structure on both goats in the first pair - very well put together! And the udders on both sides look very nice as well! IMO, this pair (out of the three) is going to have the most body correct kids was well as some very nice udders!
> 
> ...


Just the advice I was looking for, thank you! 😁


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The 3rd pairing has way better udder attachment than any of the others. The chines are NOT weak, I think we need to see what this actually means. 
The 3rd doe is missing 2 of the most common faults in Nigerian does, and above all they don't look like potbellied pigs like most do nowadays.


----------



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

This is why goat judging is a variable thing. One person's eye may see something differently than another. 😉


----------



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

goathiker said:


> The 3rd pairing has way better udder attachment than any of the others. The chines are NOT weak, I think we need to see what this actually means.
> The 3rd doe is missing 2 of the most common faults in Nigerian does, and above all they don't look like potbellied pigs like most do nowadays.


Good points! Thank you!


----------



## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

Based off these photos, I'd go with the first pairing. I like the brisket and topline of the first doe, and sire's dam. Do you know anything about milk production? Does anyone have LA scores?


----------



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

CrazyDogLady said:


> Based off these photos, I'd go with the first pairing. I like the brisket and topline of the first doe, and sire's dam. Do you know anything about milk production? Does anyone have LA scores?


These are the two that I’ve narrowed my eyes down to! Ireland (the black coloured doe) has much more to offer, I think. The second pic is the first pairing!


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Here's the descriptions of the does and bucks from Thunder Ridge Ranch's website if anyone is interested. 

Doe from first pair: 
*"Sunrise came to us from Furthur Farms and we couldn't be happier. She's a beautiful, strong Doe that has nice attachments good medial and that lovely udder texture that furthur does are known for. Her teats are thick with great orfices which makes handmilking this girl a breeze. *
_*
Her sire is Dawnland CHB Micmac, a buck that we are loving for the daughters he's thrown with beautiful Dairy style that rock the show ring and fill the milk bucket. two of note are Pouring Velvet and Kentucky Rye. 
*_
*Sunrise Freshened with quads in 2021 and easily earned her milk star as a second freshener, milking 4lbs 4.3oz." *

Buck from first pair: 
*"Thor is a buckling we absolutely couldn't refuse. Both sides of his pedigree are known for their correct mammary structure and this breeding in particular has produced very large, well placed teats. Thor is the product of a third pairing between Honey Dew and Black Oak, with a fourth in the works for this year.*
_
*His full blood sister, Curl Creek Chantilly*M is quickly climbing into one of the top spots at curl Creek for favourites according to her breeder. She won first place yearling milker in both rings at the CGS West Nationals last year. she also milked 3.16lbs as a second freshener on her one day milk test, earning her a milk star. *
_
_*Thor's sire Castle Rock Black Oak *S has proven to pass very correct mammaries to his daughters as well as milkability. He has great brisket extension, long level topline and angular dairy features. Black Oak's dam, Castle Rock Sarafina is a finished Grand Champion and LA'd EEEE 92. As a second freshener, Sarafina milked 6.8 lbs on a one day milk test. His sires dam, Castle Rock Penny wise produced 8.2 lbs as a 3 year old on her one day milk test. She has also earned both her Superior Genetics and Permanent Grand Champion status." *_

Doe from second pair: 
*"Oh where do I start with things I love about Ireland!? This doe is so much of what we love about nigerians. She has a beautiful dairy body that was appraised at VG85 as a FF with her high scores being teat length, rear udder and general appearance. Ireland's udder has a beautifully strong medial and she has shown to gain substantial capacity with each freshening. In 2019 she was placed on a one day milk test and milked 3.12lbs as a FF earing her milk star. In 2020 she was spot checked after a 12 hour hold and easily milked out 2lbs 4oz. *
_*
Ireland kidded a single doeling in 2020 named Encore, Encore is a linbreed on Castle Rock Black Oak and she didn't disappoint! Her udder structure, thick teats and teat placement are all things we strive for so we are incredibly happy to have not only Ireland, but a 2021 doeling from a repeat of that breeding named Echo. 
*_
*The more we work with this miniature breed, we appreciate the does that have the structure to make you feel like you are milking a standard breed. Ireland will be a fixture here for quite some time."* 

Buck from second pair:_ *"**Tesoro's Sire Rosasharn JML Rigatoni scored VG 86 as a yearling. His Paternal Granddam Rosasharn AX Katerina 6*M is a sixth generation milk star doe. She won Senior Reserve Champion in 2014 and Senior Grand Champion in 2019. His paternal Granddam Java has a stunning, high, wide udder with nice teat placement, great medial and huge capacity. 

Tesoro's dam Potting Shed BM Auburn seems to be following in her dam Ashley's footsteps with a beautifully shaped udder and those signature attachments. 

Potting Shed Ashley is the epitome of what we strive for in these compact dairy goats. She milked through her second and third lactations without a break and is noted to be very difficult to dry off. She classified as VG 86 as a second freshener and has passed her milky genetics on to her daughters. Ashley's "spot check" milk records from 2019 show her producing 9.7 lbs 83 days into her fourth lactation. 

His Maternal Grandsire Dragonfly SM Birdman is a US import buck that has been helping this breed make great strides forward. His dam Snowbird LA'd VEEV 90 and earned her Superior Genetics designation. His full sister appraised VVEE 89 as a second freshener and won GCH doe at the Atamont Doe Show. One of his daughters, Potting Shed BM Sweet Cheeks also won Grand Champion at the 2018 East National Show."*_


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Kaitlyn said:


> These are the two that I’ve narrowed my eyes down to!


THAT right there is a super important factor. The future doeling from any of these pairs will be YOUR goat, so it's important that you chose the pair that catches YOUR eye the most, not ours. Just like everything else in life, we all have our own opinions, so go with (and trust) you gut. 😊 

PS: I know the reason you started this thread was to get our thoughts and opinions on conformation and to know which pair is the best of the best, but even when it come to conformation, we all have our own "style" and different "priorities". 😉


----------



## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> THAT right there is a super important factor. The future doeling from any of these pairs will be YOUR goat, so it's important that you chose the pair that catches YOUR eye the most, not ours. Just like everything else in life, we all have our own opinions, so go with (and trust) you gut.
> 
> PS: I know the reason you started this thread was to get our thoughts and opinions on conformation and to know which pair is the best of the best, but even when it come to conformation, we all have our own "style" and different "priorities".


Right like I Love the straighter backs of the third pair... but that's me!


----------



## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Plus the third one isn't a pot belly like mentioned  she reminds me of my Cookie and June! May be why too


----------



## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

I would go for the last pairing. The other two and teat placement just do not do it for me. They may be ok in the kids but the last one has lovely teat placement already in the dam and the sires dam too. So you would most likely get good placement on those instead of maybe not with the other two.

Also. The first doe. Unless she is just standing really wonky.... she toes out BADLY and i do not like those legs AT ALL.


----------



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

K.B. said:


> Plus the third one isn't a pot belly like mentioned  she reminds me of my Cookie and June! May be why too


I honestly really love the deep bodied goats! So I totally see that everyone has their own preferences.


----------



## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

I do in a way!


----------



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

K.B. said:


> I do in a way!


It’s why I was drawn to Sunrise in the first place, she seems to have a super nice deep body and I love her topline. Ireland has an udder that I love, plus the sire’s grand dam has an udder to die for! It’s so hard to choose, so I think I’m honestly going to get on the waiting list for both of them and see how things go!


----------



## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

My Sapphire has a pot belly and I love her but you can see cookie is slimmer, so I have a variety lol


----------



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

K.B. said:


> My Sapphire has a pot belly and I love her but you can see cookie is slimmer, so I have a variety lol
> View attachment 213649
> View attachment 213650


So cute, I love them both! You have gorgeous goats 😁


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Kaitlyn said:


> It’s why I was drawn to Sunrise in the first place, she seems to have a super nice deep body and I love her topline. Ireland has an udder that I love, plus the sire’s grand dam has an udder to die for! It’s so hard to choose, so I think I’m honestly going to get on the waiting list for both of them and see how things go!


I think it would be a great idea to get on the waiting list for both pairs!!! I mean, what if you did only get on the list for one pair and the doe ends up kidding just bucklings? If possible, you could also get two doelings (one from each pair) or even a doeling _and _buckling - that would be a great way to get a very strong start with your herd!


----------



## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Kaitlyn said:


> So cute, I love them both! You have gorgeous goats


Thanks


----------



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I think it would be a great idea to get on the waiting list for both pairs!!! I mean, what if you did only get on the list for one pair and the doe ends up kidding just bucklings? If possible, you could also get two doelings (one from each pair) or even a doeling _and _buckling - that would be a great way to get a very strong start with your herd!


You’re absolutely right! I think I’ll do it! Thank you all for the advice and good words, I’ll have to update here when/if I end up getting one or two! They’re due around January I believe


----------



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm sure you've made an excellent choice!


----------



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Kaitlyn said:


> You’re absolutely right! I think I’ll do it! Thank you all for the advice and good words, I’ll have to update here when/if I end up getting one or two! They’re due around January I believe


You are so welcome, glad I could help!! Just another thought I had...if you are feeling really "brave" and ambitious, you could get two doelings and one buckling (a kid from each pair of course), that way you'll have more "blood" to work with and as a bonus...more goats lol!! I totally understand if that's too much for right now, but I just thought I'd mention it in case you haven't considered it before.

Yes! You most definitely have to keep us updated!! I can't wait to see the kid (or kids) you decide on!! So excited for you!!


----------



## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> You are so welcome, glad I could help!! Just another thought I had...if you are feeling really "brave" and ambitious, you could get two doelings and one buckling (a kid from each pair of course), that way you'll have more "blood" to work with and as a bonus...more goats lol!! I totally understand if that's too much for right now, but I just thought I'd mention it in case you haven't considered it before.
> 
> Yes! You most definitely have to keep us updated!! I can't wait to see the kid (or kids) you decide on!! So excited for you!!


Aah, if I wasn’t short on space for bucks I absolutely would try for that! Unfortunately we’re in the middle of designing a new buck pen since the one we have right now is a bit small for our three guys, but maybe in the future I’ll look into getting a new buck so I can really start improving these girls. Our bucks now are sweethearts, but when breeding for milk production it’s not exactly personality that wins people over! Lol


----------



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> You are so welcome, glad I could help!! Just another thought I had...if you are feeling really "brave" and ambitious, you could get two doelings and one buckling (a kid from each pair of course), that way you'll have more "blood" to work with and as a bonus...more goats lol!! I totally understand if that's too much for right now, but I just thought I'd mention it in case you haven't considered it before.
> 
> Yes! You most definitely have to keep us updated!! I can't wait to see the kid (or kids) you decide on!! So excited for you!!


Yes, yes when in doubt go with all of the above.😁


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The rumen isn't what I was talking about. 
By breeding the body heavier and heavier the breeders are having to shorten the legs to keep them fitting the height limits. Many don't have the 7 inches of clearance they are supposed to have below the udder. This trend is drifting the breed back to more pygmy like conformation. 
The day that a herd of Nigerians can't be hooked up to a commercial milking machine because there is no room for it, ADGA will reevaluating their worth as dairy goats.


----------

