# Red/orange colored urine...



## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

I noticed a few urine spots in the snow this afternoon that were an orangey-red color.
I'm not sure if it's blood, or even which goat it's from.
They did get some carrots yesterday, could this have caused the color...I'm so hoping that it's not blood. :worried:


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

I believe carrots have a ca to p ratio of .6:1 so I think that's a bad ratio for wethers, don't know about it changing pee color though.....


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Oh great...there is so much to learn when feeding wethers.
Thanks, Jodi

Just when I think I've got a handle on it, there's something else I learn.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I wouldnt worry about a carrot now & then but it certainly could change urine color if they've had more than a few.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks, Nancy...they did have all the greens from a bunch of carrots (probably 6 in the bunch), and each goat ate approximately one whole carrot.
I'll keep an eye on them and hopefully it will be cleared up by tomorrow.
It's too dark out now to see anything anyway.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Poor WillowGem  I'm sure they will be fine , as long as you know now is what's important . I am learning all this too , writing notes as I learn new things  I dont have a weather yet , but I am sure there will be one in my future if I do get a buckling  And even without the buckling , if one of my girls has a buck , and being my first baby , I will most likely keep the lil bugger , lolol.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

I swear, these boys are going to give me gray hairs, Laura!
Unless I pull it all out first. :hair:

I'm still so unsure about the calcium phosphorous ratio of most of the stuff they are eating.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Jeez , I have so much to learn about having a wether/buck !!!
Im just glad I will first learn their needs before I bring one home. 
Now watch someone will drop one off on my doorstep tomorrow 
morning :eyeroll:


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Trickyroo said:


> Jeez , I have so much to learn about having a wether/buck !!!
> Im just glad I will first learn their needs before I bring one home.
> Now watch someone will drop one off on my doorstep tomorrow
> morning :eyeroll:


Wouldn't that be AWESOME though?


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Well heck yeah :wahoo:


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

Willow gem there is tons of info on the net google calcium to phosphours ratio in vegtables/food/hay,you should get all kinds of info. If you don't let me know and I'll link some of it. My vet just told me no kitchen scraps no grain after 6 months, no treats at all really hay,pasture, weeds, water,minerals. I have seen some things like beet tops,tops only,boc Choy,kale, all have a pretty good ratios, I have tried to feed these things to them and they kicked the bowl over in their stall sniffed it and said poo to you mom. I noticed figs have a 2.5 to 1 ratio so they would be a good choice,I have some I bought but have not tried them yet,I already know what they're gonna do... I sent my 2nd cut grass hay that i would be feeding them all winter to a lab for analyzing and it came back 1.6 to 1 so not bad but a little low in ca. So I feed hoggers special mineral mix for grass hay fed goats, and when the ground isn't covered in snow they get lots of fresh pickings which I never worry about because what am I gonna do test every weed and blade of grass growing around here.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Stuff like this makes me reconsider getting a wether :/


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I give my boys carrots all the time. yes it can cause it a little color change but the first thing I though of was making sure they are drinking enough.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Don't worry, hun, I gave my wether carrots ALL THE TIME before I learned about the cal/phos ratio of carrots. He was fine


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I give my boys all kinds of stuff. I maintain their regular feed at a 3 to 1 ratio though, then I don't have to worry about a couple carrots or some summer squash. 
There is more to the stones then just feed ratio anyway. There are more then one kind and there is a hereditary componant there as well.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

goathiker said:


> There is more to the stones then just feed ratio anyway. There are more then one kind and there is a hereditary componant there as well.


You've mentioned that before, goathiker.
I just feel like my head is going to explode, with all the wether diet info I need to learn.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No, you only have to learn your area. Call your state university large animal program and find out which stone is the most common in your area. Then just prevent that one. I can help you figure it out once you know.
The hereditary part is like the little snot I have in the barn right not. Everything about his sex organs is tiny so I'm going to hold off on banding him until I can barely fit the band on him. That way he can grow as much as possible before his hormones are taken away.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

goathiker said:


> No, you only have to learn your area. Call your state university large animal program and find out which stone is the most common in your area. Then just prevent that one. I can help you figure it out once you know.


Thanks, goathiker.  
That's good to know.

Today their urine is back to its normal color, so it must have been the carrots...Phew, I'm so relieved.

I was doing a little research and found that their drinking water should be a ph of 7. 
Luckily I had an aquarium ph testing kit, and discovered my water has a really high ph.
Just a capful of lemon juice in the water bucket brought it back down to 7. 
I'm sure ACV would do the same thing, but my boys won't touch the stuff...brats!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I use kool aid in mine. Think the goats are spoiled?


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Us...spoil our goats?? Naaahhhhh!!


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

Yeah, I should be dropping my water ph as well, I was wondering about the acid pac 4 way, I'm not sure what I should use. I had no ideal I could use lemon juice


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Glad to hear their urine is normal again 
I was worried about my boys !!!
I wuv em


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

It didn't take much, Jodi.
I started by adding 1/4 cup of lemon juice to the water bucket.
That was waaaaayyyy too much, so I dumped it and started over, figuring I'd add a capful at a time.
Just one capful, the cap from the lemon juice bottle, was perfect.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Who is that on your avatar ?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

WillowGem said:


> I swear, these boys are going to give me gray hairs, Laura!
> Unless I pull it all out first. :hair:
> 
> I'm still so unsure about the calcium phosphorous ratio of most of the stuff they are eating.


Do you know the cal/phos of your soil or the soil of the hay you give them? Sometimes grass hay will even be a bit high in phosphorus and you may need to add a bit of alfalfa to their diet.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Woodhaven, here's a link to the soil elements in my county.
But I'm not exactly sure how to read it.  
I get the hay from my neighbor, so I know where it comes from.

http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/county.php?place=f26087&el=P&rf=upper-midwestern


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Trickyroo said:


> Who is that on your avatar ?


You don't recognize your boy? 
Silly Merlin, chomping on some pine needles...LOL!!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Unless I'm reading it wrong, looks like your soil is high in calcium, which is good.


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/county.php?place=f50013&el=Se&rf=northeastern

Here's me but I don't get it, anyone what to help me with translation?


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## MissyParkerton (Nov 24, 2012)

I've noticed that the goatie pee spots in the snow turn reddish orange-ish after a little time has passed (they start off normally colored). I think the urine changes color as it oxidizes, or reacts in some way to being exposed to the outside elements. When I first started seeing this I freaked out until I understood what was going on...!

My hay from last year had a good cal/phos ratio. This year's hay is almost cal/phos neutral. I got some alfalfa pellets to give my wethers a little extra calcium, but am not sure how much to give them. So far just a couple handfuls a week. Does anyone know what a good amount would be? Thanks!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

MissyParkerton said:


> I've noticed that the goatie pee spots in the snow turn reddish orange-ish after a little time has passed (they start off normally colored). I think the urine changes color as it oxidizes, or reacts in some way to being exposed to the outside elements. When I first started seeing this I freaked out until I understood what was going on...!
> 
> My hay from last year had a good cal/phos ratio. This year's hay is almost cal/phos neutral. I got some alfalfa pellets to give my wethers a little extra calcium, but am not sure how much to give them. So far just a couple handfuls a week. Does anyone know what a good amount would be? Thanks!


I have been giving my wether maybe not quite 1/4 a cup of alfalfa pellets, mixed with minerals that has ammonium chloride. He is almost full grown and gets it every day since his sisters get grain and I don't want him to be jealous


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## peggy (Aug 11, 2010)

I have noticed that my goats all pee orangey color but maybe like Missyparkerton said, it changes after a bit.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> Unless I'm reading it wrong, looks like your soil is high in calcium, which is good.


That's what it kind of looked like to me too...but I'm with Jodi, I'm not sure I'm getting it.
Does that mean my ca/p ratio is 2.698/0.028 ?


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

WillowGem said:


> You don't recognize your boy?
> Silly Merlin, chomping on some pine needles...LOL!!


I was just looking at it again and now I know who it is , its my silly Merlin 
boy  I must have been looking on my iPad and that picture is way small so there was no way I was going to figure it out , lolol :hammer:

Like I said , it snucks getting old


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Willowgem here is a start for you. The structure of your soil.
*Geologic units in *

Michigan Formation (Mississippian) _at surface, covers 35 % of this area_Michigan Formation Lithology: shale; black shale; sandstone; dolostone (dolomite); limestone; evaporite
Marshall Sandstone (Mississippian) _at surface, covers 48 % of this area_Marshall Sandstone Lithology: sandstone; siltstone
Coldwater Shale (Mississippian) _at surface, covers 17 % of this area_Coldwater Shale Lithology: shale; limestone; dolostone (dolomite); sandstone; siltstone
See the dolostone? That's where the Calcium is coming from in the essay. Problem is that unless it is ground under pressure, the plants can't use it. So much less of the calcium that is in the rocks is going to be in the plants. 
 The phospherous comes from the limestone, again it has to be grond under pressure to be used. 
 I'l find out more as the day goes on and I have a few minutes at a time.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

goathiker said:


> Willowgem here is a start for you. The structure of your soil.
> 
> I'l find out more as the day goes on and I have a few minutes at a time.


Thank you so much, goathiker...I really appreciate the help. :thankU:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I was wrong, your limestone is more Calcium then ours. Double whammy.
This is interesting from your university. Gives you some ideas of what is deficient even though it's for beef cattle.
http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G2081


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

I live on an island and were a limestone base, so does that mean my pasture is higher in ca?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It depends on how much is actually in your soil Jodi, Where Willowgem is the big rivers grind the rocks up and move the silt with the flood waters. That spreads things out into the river deltas. 
Limestone does deteriorate and it will burn also. If you let me know what county you're in, I'll see what I can find out for you too. You could PM me if you prefer.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

goathiker, I'm in Michigan, not Missouri.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

oops  I'll blame it on the hangover I don't have.
Did you know there's a Lapeer County in Missouri Who'd a thunk


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

LOL...or the one I do...heehee! 

I'm trying to find something similar to the link you posted, but for MSU (Michigan State University)...with no luck so far.


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## sunshinegoat (Feb 7, 2012)

This happens with horses in the winter too. I never worry about it if its orange or pink...I've never seen it actually be bloody urine, just darker due to not drinking enough and it really shows up against the snow...the first time I saw this I almost had a heart attack though! Here's a link I found that discusses the possibilities..
http://kinne.net/redurine.htm
Hope this helps


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Ahh, that would make sense since the water freezes overnight.


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/county.php?place=f50013&el=Se&rf=northeastern
Here's a link to my county goat hiker,thanks so much! I would greatly appreciate your input!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Willow, I got lots of hits but, my computer can't open the links or they're old. I'm not geeting a good signal tonight. Here's the search 
http://www.bing.com/search?q=minera...y+michigan&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk=&first=1&FORM=PERE

I really wanted to read that one on Iodine deficiency and stilborns, looked interesting.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

That's the same problem I was having, goathiker. 
Thanks for the links.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Jodi, the assay for your area is unbelievable. Those copper levels, how is that fair? Selenium is a little low. Zinc is too high. It might interfer with the copper/calcium/selenium trio. I'm not picking up any articles or publications on deficiency in your area at all. I think you live in a good place for livestock. They probably need little more then a loose mineral and maybe some kelp for those trace minerals we don't know a lot about yet. I'll keep looking.


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

goathiker said:


> Jodi, the assay for your area is unbelievable. Those copper levels, how is that fair? Selenium is a little low. Zinc is too high. It might interfer with the copper/calcium/selenium trio. I'm not picking up any articles or publications on deficiency in your area at all. I think you live in a good place for livestock. They probably need little more then a loose mineral and maybe some kelp for those trace minerals we don't know a lot about yet. I'll keep looking.


Yahoo,gotta live living on an island in Vermont. I know we can grow beautiful beef cattle on just grass here,well my uncle does. I really appreciate your help, so I probably don't need to give copper then,maybe selenium paste? thanks so much for your help, looking forward to hearing more of our thoughts


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

All those links worked today Willow, I wonder if the servers at the university were shut down over the holidays.


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## Stacykins (Mar 27, 2012)

Our Michigan geography can change a lot even over a small distance. Mostly because of the impact of the glaciers, scraping away some rock layers but not others. For instance, I live in an area that is mostly limestone with a few granite erratics here or there. I have found half a dozen fossils in the weather exposed limestone on the property, and I wasn't even looking very hard. But a few miles away, the soil is thin, and underneath is a solid layer of granite. Makes well drilling problematic and expensive.


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

http://www.ilmpt.org/ilmpt/The_Chazy_Reef_on_Isle_La_Motte.html

Here's a link about where I live, we own a large part of the chazy reef, actually the oldest part is on my land, and we have amazing fossils everywhere!


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

That is so awesome, Jodi!
I was going to ask what island you lived on, thanks for posting that.


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## rgdlljames (Sep 8, 2011)

Here is a link to the MSU soil sample ratings from 2008.....maybe this will help? I will keep looking because I live in Grand Traverse County in Michigan and have had lots of trouble with UC and need to know all I can too. Leaning towards genetics mostly with my boys. 
Anyway, hope this helps and hopeing goathiker can decifer this too. LOL 

http://www.css.msu.edu/_pdf/MEDIANCT.pdf


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks Jackie.
The variation from county to county is amazing, but I still don't know what I'm looking at...LOL! 

I do hope goathiker can give more insight...I'm so impressed with her knowledge of these things.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You Michigan people are going to make me study for days aren't ya?  
I go to figure out the high lead and you're on to something else. Anyway Iodine blocks the Lead so, feeding kelp will block the damage that the heavy metals can cause. 
Have any of you thought to have your water tested? That would give you a better idea of what you're relly dealing with. It looks like water is a little low in PH some places. I'd be really interested to know what minerals are in there though. 
I'll keep working at this inbetween barn cleaning and figure out that new chart too.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

goathiker said:


> You Michigan people are going to make me study for days aren't ya?


  :hug:



goathiker said:


> Anyway Iodine blocks the Lead so, feeding kelp will block the damage that the heavy metals can cause.


I just ordered a bag of kelp last week, I'm still waiting on delivery...this is good to know.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Alright, this will help a bunch. A graph that shows PH and mineral absorbtion.








For Jodi it shows that the zinc isn't a problem unless her soil Ph is really really acidic, which it shouldn't be with fossils in the ground.
For Michigan people it shows that very little of the Calcium in the ground is available to plants because of the acidic soil. It also shows that at their PH level Phosperous is grabbed out of the ground by the grass. That Molybdenum sitting there right at 6 and 7. That interferes with copper/selenium/calcium if it's too high. 
Can I get one of you to buy a fish tank PH test kit and test the water?
Sorry it took me so long.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Ummmm , Goathiker , 
if you ever have a reason to look up 
Long Island , suffolk county , I would love to know what you find. :question:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

No problem Laura, I'll start tonight and get back in a couple days. Or sooner, tonight is going to be boring anyway.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Oh wow , thanks 
Your amazing goathiker !


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I feel like I'm getting a crash course in mineral science. It's awesome.

All right so what my poor brain was able to absorb was: Minerals sometimes do weird things, so add kelp to their diet.

Augh.

*Back to science books*


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## rgdlljames (Sep 8, 2011)

Thank you so much Goathiker!! I will test our well water and let you know were it is. Have strips at home and will do it tonight.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Will ACV help keep the well water "safe" for the goats?


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## MissyParkerton (Nov 24, 2012)

My well water is pretty basic so I add ACV to the goats' water to increase its acidity. I keep reading/hearing that this is a good thing to do to help prevent the stones.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> Will ACV help keep the well water "safe" for the goats?


I add a teaspoon of lemonade powder to each bucket, they are the two and a half gallon size. 
That brings the ph of my well water to 7, which is neutral.
I'm sure ACV would have the same effect, but my boys won't touch the stuff. 



goathiker said:


> Can I get one of you to buy a fish tank PH test kit and test the water?


Goathiker, I have a ph test kit, I will check mine and let you know the results.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

WillowGem said:


> I add a teaspoon of lemonade powder to each bucket, they are the two and a half gallon size.
> That brings the ph of my well water to 7, which is neutral.


 This was all I was going to point out, that everyone needs to make sure that their water PH is as close to 7 as possible. If it is really acidic (6 and under) that will cause problems as much as it being too alkali.
You'll want to make sure you test to see how much vinegar, Lemon juice, Tang, or Kool-Aid you really need to make it right.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

See on here you can see where the minerals become unsoluable. Calcium and Magnesium become carbonates in a alkali environment. Those 2 stones are a death sentence, they can't be disolved. Manganese produces silicates in alkali. These are stones shaped like little teeth that damage the kidneys and bladder. I paid 1100 dollars to have 4 of them removed from my dog. These are the 3 worst stones so acid helps a lot to prevent them. If you go too acid though, then you are damaging the system and killing bladder cells. Dead bladder cells can attract excess mineral microbes to stick to them and start stones forming. Vitamin A and D deficiency also kills bladder cells. At neutral Ph you might still get a Calcium Phosphate stone with an unbalanced diet. Don't let the name fool you, they are caused by excess Phosphorus not Calcium. AC will disolve these. 
Oh, my dog got the Silicate stones while we were living in Fort Rock for a summer. The vet said this was common in the area from the dogs eating dirt while chasing rodents. Fort Rock is where all the DE is mined so, no DE gets anywhere near my wethers.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

*Average concentrations of elements in Suffolk County, New York*

*(Calculated from cells in the geochemical grid plotting in this area.)*
ElementSymbolMeanStd. dev.MinimumMaximum
AluminumAl (wt%)2.784 1.627 1.060 6.411
ArsenicAs (ppm)4.159 1.720 1.003 7.568
CalciumCa (wt%)0.381 0.211 0.211 1.290
CopperCu (ppm)12.898 6.856 1.465 61.090
IronFe (wt%)1.813 0.669 0.582 3.250
MercuryHg (ppm)0.053 0.049 0.010 0.199
MagnesiumMg (wt%)0.210 0.112 0.072 0.481
ManganeseMn (ppm)547.725 236.783 221.000 1475.990
SodiumNa (wt%)0.511 0.249 0.203 1.206
PhosphorusP (wt%)0.038 0.016 0.016 0.078
LeadPb (ppm)50.290 15.868 17.026 75.850
SeleniumSe (ppm)0.412 0.313 0.100 1.278
TitaniumTi (wt%)0.398 0.182 0.112 1.500
ZincZn (ppm)43.044 15.599 22.211 102.746


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Calcium is about non-existant 
Copper is between 10 and 15 which is good. Loose minerals may be plenty for your girls.
Iron is much lower then copper, that is good.
Magnesium is non-existant
Manganese is insane, kelp for your girls too.
Phosphorus non-existant
Lead high, kelp again
Selenium way low, you want to see 5 to 7 PPM
Zinc very high compared to Copper. It may interfer. 
So, your pastures contain few nutrients mineralwise. Excellent minerals and sea kelp are going to be neccesary for them. I would also look at Bo.Se two or three times a year.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Thank you thank you thank you Goathiker. :hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:


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## kristinatucker (Jan 3, 2012)

Goat Hiker - Where do you find those charts? Im not sure I can exactly interpret without your mad skills! Im wondering if we may have something up here too. I have one goat who is black that keeps going copper deficient on me. I gave her a copper bolus and it helped some but 3 months later she still had some copper highlights. I went ahead and gave her the kids size as I was afraid to OD her but she was kidding soon so I wanted to boost her some. It again seems like it helped some but she still has some copper color in her hair. No fish tail and noone else seems to show anything like she does. Im going to check our water with the pH strips too but can you pull one of those charts for lewisburg, TN (Marshall County). We were told by the vet that we have copper and selenium deficiency in our area so we do a BoSe right now one a year and then the copper once or twice a year.
Thanks!
Kristina


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

Wow, I am in love with this thread!! And it looks like Goathiker any be a genius! I tried looking up my area and it made absolutly no sence to me. Then again I always sicked at both math and chem. I feel like I'm back in college trying to figure this out and I'm getting a big fat *F* on my mid term!!! If anyone could interpert this for me *cough goathiker cough* I would be extremly greatful. I have a little wether coming home in a few monthes and am freaking about UC just a bit!!

http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/county.php?place=f47119&el=P&rf=east-central

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I found the ph balance of our water -- 7.67. Now me and my dad are working together trying to figure out how much ACV would be needed per bucket.

We have 2 gallon buckets.

5% vinegar has a ph of about 2.4 (according to what I found ... another source said it was 4.25? AUGH)

Our ph balance is 7.67.

Goodness why do I have to be so bad at math, I hope I can figure this out :laugh:

EDIT:

We found this: 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon of vinegar per 1/2 gallon of water will drop ph by 1.

I may start using 5% acidity Lemonaid, since I also just read: _"When used on a daily basis, ACV can restore and balance the body's pH from acidic to neutral. It seems unlikely for an acidic substance to be able to normalize, or lower our pH. However, the digestive system naturally converts it to an alkaline-based substance."_ I don't want more alkaline, I need a bit more acidity.

*SO, in summary, 2.5 teaspoons of 5% acidity Lemonaid to their 2 gallon buckets should lower the ph by 1.*


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Phew that was exhausting XD. All right so if my ph is 7.67 and we want it 7, I need only add maybe 1 teaspoon.


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

goathiker said:


> Can I get one of you to buy a fish tank PH test kit and test the water?


Here are the results I got with my PH test kit.


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## MissyParkerton (Nov 24, 2012)

Does anyone use the 4 Way Acid Pack product to acidify basic water?


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

Jodi-berg has mentioned the acid pak, but I don't know if she's tried it yet.


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## kristinatucker (Jan 3, 2012)

So is the "mean" what the area current reads at? I found the chart for my county thanks to Irish Roots http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/county.php?place=f47117&el=P&rf=east-central Im not sure exactly how to read it though either.


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## serenityfarmnm (Jan 6, 2013)

goathiker said:


> No problem Laura, I'll start tonight and get back in a couple days. Or sooner, tonight is going to be boring anyway.


GOATHIKER, I really hate to ask but I live in a very odd place... Caballo Lake, NM.. I know I am supposed to have high saline in the ground but our well water TASTES better than any city water! We have an elec well & Artisan. Any soil info you could find would be great as I am trying to figure out what kinda grasses etc. to plant.

Here is a view from my front yard as an example of quick changing terrain: Desert, hwy, Caballo Lake & mountains all around!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Okay, I'll work on all this tonight. Soil and water PH is a big help figuring it out so, I'll look for what I can find on that too.
Kim-do you get iron bacteria in your water turning everything red?


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## serenityfarmnm (Jan 6, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Okay, I'll work on all this tonight. Soil and water PH is a big help figuring it out so, I'll look for what I can find on that too.
> Kim-do you get iron bacteria in your water turning everything red?


Not a bit!! We have had well water several different times and you could always tell one way or another. I guess we are directly drilled into the demming aquifer.


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Okay, I'll work on all this tonight. Soil and water PH is a big help figuring it out so, I'll look for what I can find on that too.
> Kim-do you get iron bacteria in your water turning everything red?


I bow to you!! Thank you so much!!! :applaud:

Kristina looks like we are in the same boat! What county are you in? I think you are fairly close so we should be close to the same as far as levels go! Atleast I'm not the only one who cant read that. Just looking at it makes my head hurt! :lol:


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## kristinatucker (Jan 3, 2012)

Um Kim, I am super jealous of your view!  amazing!



serenityfarmnm said:


> GOATHIKER, I really hate to ask but I live in a very odd place... Caballo Lake, NM.. I know I am supposed to have high saline in the ground but our well water TASTES better than any city water! We have an elec well & Artisan. Any soil info you could find would be great as I am trying to figure out what kinda grasses etc. to plant.
> 
> Here is a view from my front yard as an example of quick changing terrain: Desert, hwy, Caballo Lake & mountains all around!


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

I agree! Its awesome!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

IrishRoots said:


> Just looking at it makes my head hurt! :lol:


 This one should give you headrushes then


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

goathiker said:


> This one should give you headrushes then


Ahhhhhh my eyessssssssssss :shocked:

lol


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

This thread is so helpful... if I'm understanding correctly were deficient in selenium and copper. I'm going to test our water this week and talk to the extension office about it too. 

Goathiker, thanks for being so willing to explain this to us. I


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Dani, I'll try to get a bunch more stuff together tonight. I'll look at NC too. 
If I ever decide to move I'm going to know the basics of the whole US


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Irishroots

*Average concentrations of elements in Maury County, Tennessee*

*(Calculated from cells in the geochemical grid plotting in this area.)*
ElementSymbolMeanStd. dev.MinimumMaximum
AluminumAl (wt%)2.607 0.438 1.753 3.765
ArsenicAs (ppm)11.243 6.678 3.403 30.161 
CalciumCa (wt%)3.116 1.266 0.541 7.114
CopperCu (ppm)7.087 1.357 4.031 11.860
IronFe (wt%)2.850 0.987 1.346 6.376
MercuryHg (ppm)0.039 0.006 0.030 0.059
MagnesiumMg (wt%)0.231 0.042 0.132 0.378
ManganeseMn (ppm)1591.600 565.301 623.282 3755.480 
SodiumNa (wt%)0.163 0.038 0.075 0.265
PhosphorusP (wt%)1.111 0.540 0.096 2.747
LeadPb (ppm)17.789 3.280 11.143 28.671
SeleniumSe (ppm)0.304 0.093 0.110 0.496
TitaniumTi (wt%)0.156 0.044 0.101 0.276
ZincZn (ppm)51.682 12.857 29.39 783.953


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## serenityfarmnm (Jan 6, 2013)

kristinatucker said:


> Um Kim, I am super jealous of your view!  amazing!


Thanks!! We took one heck of a run down dump of a farm in exchange 4 it but I just have to look across the road to feel peaceful!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Copper low, Selenium nonexistent, Manganese really high. It's a funny compound, it's needed in small amounts and toxic if too much is taken in. In rock form, it's fine, blowing in the wind in sand, it poisons, eaten or inhaled. Kelp helps protect and also Calcium. 
Tomorrow I'll show you how to read the graphs. Going to bed early at 2:40. Gotta spend some daytime hours with hubby tomorrow


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

Thanks Goathiker!!! Its all greek to me, glad your so smart!!! :thankU:


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Thank you, I'm excited about to see what I need to change in their diets. Alot of people have had problems with floppy kid syndrome in our area. I'm not breeding yet (getting my first show doe this year or next!) But I want to make sure I can avoid problems if possible


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## kristinatucker (Jan 3, 2012)

goathiker said:


> Copper low, Selenium nonexistent, Manganese really high. It's a funny compound, it's needed in small amounts and toxic if too much is taken in. In rock form, it's fine, blowing in the wind in sand, it poisons, eaten or inhaled. Kelp helps protect and also Calcium.
> Tomorrow I'll show you how to read the graphs. Going to bed early at 2:40. Gotta spend some daytime hours with hubby tomorrow


Thanks Goathiker. Irish and I are just a city over from eachother so Im sure thats the same for mine. Our vet said we needed to do BoSe so Im glad we did and we had signs of copper issues so we did boulus that already. The magnesium is surprising. I have zero idea what to do with kelp so I have to research that. Do you know what the best way to supplement the calcium would be? Im going to run our water this week too.

Thanks again!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

kristinatucker said:


> Thanks Goathiker. Irish and I are just a city over from eachother so Im sure thats the same for mine. Our vet said we needed to do BoSe so Im glad we did and we had signs of copper issues so we did boulus that already. The magnesium is surprising. I have zero idea what to do with kelp so I have to research that. Do you know what the best way to supplement the calcium would be? Im going to run our water this week too.
> 
> Thanks again!


 Since there is so little CA and PH in your ground, a good rule of thumb is 1/2 grass hay 1/2 alfalfa. That usually will balance CA and PH really well at about 3 to 1. Beet pulp is also a good source of Calcium. Most Sugar beets are GMO's though. So, however you feel about that issue. 
Kelp is easy you feed it free choice, or top dress it on their pellets, or mix it with their minerals. It provides many miro-nutrients that we still know little about.


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

Awesome! Thanks for the help Goathiker!!! Where does everyone get their kelp from?

GMO's blagh!


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## kristinatucker (Jan 3, 2012)

Goat Hiker - well awesome we should be good then cause we feed mixed grass hay and feel alfalfa pellets! We also feed beet pulp but Im honestly not sure about the GMO issue with what we give them with the beet pulp. I will look into that though. They also get a 16% goat grain and black oil sunflower seeds. Thanks for the info!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

IrishRoots said:


> Awesome! Thanks for the help Goathiker!!! Where does everyone get their kelp from?
> 
> GMO's blagh!


 I got mine at the local feed store. Alot of horse owners use it too. It was $80 for 50lbs but, that lasts me a year for 15 goats.

I avoid the Gmo issue as much as possible and feed whole grains and home grown vegtables to my critters as much as possible.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh christina, don't mix up Manganese and Magnesium when you're doing your research. The dangerous form of Manganese comes from mining activities and volcanic areas etc where particle can blow away and be inhaled or eaten.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Kim,
*Average concentrations of elements in Sierra County, New Mexico*

*(Calculated from cells in the geochemical grid plotting in this area.)*
ElementSymbolMeanStd. dev.MinimumMaximum
AluminumAl (wt%)5.574 1.341 1.890 8.488
ArsenicAs (ppm)4.221 1.606 1.328 22.149
CalciumCa (wt%)5.215 3.098 0.777 18.342
CopperCu (ppm)25.352 13.840 10.229 119.278
IronFe (wt%)3.319 1.285 0.908 9.957
MercuryHg (ppm)0.019 0.009 0.010 0.071
MagnesiumMg (wt%)0.862 0.244 0.303 2.123
ManganeseMn (ppm)566.632 231.449 78.197 1659.970
SodiumNa (wt%)1.228 0.391 0.567 2.335
PhosphorusP (wt%)0.063 0.028 0.021 0.508
LeadPb (ppm)30.761 24.973 7.284 341.219
SeleniumSe (ppm)0.160 0.060 0.100 0.399
TitaniumTi (wt%)0.443 0.170 0.117 1.369
ZincZn (ppm)73.337 25.823 18.701 183.906

Wow, copper is awesome. Selenium very very low. Sodium doesn't look that bad to me. There's probably more in the surface water then the ground but, the aquifier should be fine. You will want to check the PH and make sure that it is around 7.
Calcium/Phospherus ratio is good but, low. I couldn't find anything on soil PH for you. That's going to tell you best what you need to fix to grow pasture. Do wild grapes grow there? They are awesome fast growing forage. Remember, if your soil is alkaline, your pasture plants will be too. You'll want to fix it. 
So, balanced diet, Selenium suppliments (Bo.Se or Selenium/Vitamin E paste) Don't think copper shpuld be a problem unless there is an antagonist mineral that the survey doesn't show


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## serenityfarmnm (Jan 6, 2013)

:leap::leap::angel::clap::sun::thumbup::thankU::thankU::balloons::balloons::fireworks::wahoo::stars::hugs:


You Rock!!!!!!!!!! Thank You so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

Goat hiker your amazing! I just wanted to double check, that mine which is vt has great content, and all I should need to do is provide a good loose mineral,right now I feed a few different kinds of mixed grass hay,but my main hay is 1.6:1 and as a snack they get timothy which is usually 1:8-2:1 and free choice timothy pelletts, they get milk still 2x per day and only 2 tbls of actual grain. They eat whatever they can outside and I give pine branches on days they are stuck inside by the weather. I know the last time I checked my water it was 7.6. Thanks goat hiker!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

*Average concentrations of elements in Grand Isle County, Vermont*

*(Calculated from cells in the geochemical grid plotting in this area.)*
ElementSymbolMeanStd. dev.MinimumMaximum
AluminumAl (wt%)5.781 0.391 5.096 6.512
ArsenicAs (ppm)2.305 0.486 1.042 3.405
CalciumCa (wt%)3.171 1.154 1.799 7.580
CopperCu (ppm)16.304 4.568 9.670 24.625
IronFe (wt%)3.143 0.556 2.233 4.048
MercuryHg (ppm)0.091 0.029 0.038 0.148
MagnesiumMg (wt%)0.794 0.120 0.599 1.165
ManganeseMn (ppm)611.727 62.828 418.050 745.095
SodiumNa (wt%)1.583 0.102 1.312 1.770
PhosphorusP (wt%)0.096 0.007 0.083 0.112
LeadPb (ppm)50.570 18.410 25.539 83.127
SeleniumSe (ppm)0.232 0.117 0.101 0.592
TitaniumTi (wt%)0.633 0.117 0.416 0.802
ZincZn (ppm)90.342 21.290 54.325 143.475

See, your copper is above 10PPM whitch is in the good range. But your Selenum is low, you'll want to watch for that. If your goats start kidding singles alot or have mis-presented kids, sluggish labor, or kids with weak legs, then that is your problem. Most of us don't try to fix that deficiency, we give a shot right before breeding and one right before kidding so that they have it when they need it most. A good loose mineral that supplies copper and a good amount of Selenium will probably be plenty unless you start seeing those symptoms. 
For a lot of people they go along just fine for 2 or 3 years and then all of a sudden they run into a mineral issue. The reason for that is because the goats have eaten up and killed all the deep rooted shrubs that we call weeds. These contain more minerals because their roots go so deep for nutrients. 
I am finding some claims of Selenium and Vitamin E deficiency from Vermont, mostly from horse owners. I'm not finding any Copper deficiency claims. If Selenium is a problem, your vet should know and sell you Bo.Se.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Now your hay. Assuming that your Timothy pellets are about the same ratio as your Timothy hay and that they eat about equal rates of both by weight. Your hay ration is 1.7ca to 1.55phos. You can get away with this for does that are dry and not pregnant. Other classes of goats need higher Calcium.
If you replace half your Timothy pellets with alfalfa pellets, mixing them together. Your hay will come out 2.5ca to 1.27phos. Which is 2 to 1. I actually go 3 to 1 on my hay. 
Pine is already balanced it is about .23ca to .11phos. and is a good source of vitamin C.


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

I'm so scared to feed alfalfa,but I do know I'm low on the calcium side.Thanks so much goat hiker!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Excuse my newbie ness , but why would you be afraid to feed alfalfa ?


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

Because my wether, I'm worried about uc with it having about a 5:1 ca: ph ratio


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Ah ha , I thought about that after I sent the post , lol
Thank you Jodi


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

But, the 5 to 1 is only true if you were feeding nothing but, alfalfa. (which I have been doing the last month) By mixing it with the grass hay and Timothy pellets you're barely getting 2 to 1. To me that is too low, but, when you are figuring it out, you have to to into account everything they are eating in the barn and in the pasture. I can feed pure alfalfa for a short time without harm as I know that they have nothing but rye grass in their back yard right now. The 2 wethers in the barn were getting oats to help balance and are now fat but, are healthy.
The American Small Stock Journal says that 2 to 1 is the bare minimum on Calcium. That they'd rather see 4 to 1. So, I split the difference for my boys. 

Are Calcium Carbonate stones a problem in your area? They are a fairly rare stone in Goats, they affect horses more commonly. 
Calcium Phosphate stones are caused by excess Phospherous. They are, by far, the most common in goats.


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## Jodi_berg (Oct 29, 2012)

I got in touch with small ruminant specialist at uvm and she said that stones are not very common here and are only a problem if you feed too much grain,she couldn't tell me what type of stone was most common.So I didn't glean much info there. I totally agree they are low in ca as they are eating mostly grass hay. So if I mixed my Timmy pellets 1/2 & 1/2 with alf pellets that would give me 2:1? I love my wether to the moon and back and want him around and healthy for along time so I have had a lot of anxiety since finding out about the whole uc thing,and my vet warned about alfalfa so I've been afraid of it ever since


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

She told you everything you needed. Stones from too much grain are Calcium Phosphate. From not balancing the Phosphorus in the large amounts of grain.
Yes, that much alfalfa pellets gives you 2 to 1 and brings the protein level up to 12/13% on the pellet part of their diet.
2 parts Timothy pellets mixed with 1 part beet pulp pellets would do the same. It leaves the protein at 8 % but, it doubles the calories.
Feeding the Timothy pellets as is but, changing to grass and pea or grass and clover would do it too.
Clover scares me though. Unless it's done just right it can poison your animals.


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

I kind of feel like I did when I took nutrition in my equine studies courses.....I think I has a stroke lol. :laugh:


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

IrishRoots said:


> I kind of feel like I did when I took nutrition in my equine studies courses.....I think I has a stroke lol. :laugh:


ROFL, IrishRoots...me too!!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I need a new notebook !


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

Trickyroo said:


> I need a new notebook !


I need a new brain!!! :slapfloor:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I missed somebody, did I do South Carolina?


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I didn't see North Carolina. No pressure but I'm in pitt county . 

Its great that your helping us figure out how to take better care of our animals. I'm sure alot of this can be applied to other livestock. Its interesting to see how much everything changes from place to place


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

That was the one. Alright I'll do that one tonight.


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## bayouboergoats (Dec 30, 2012)

If you don't mind can you tell me how my levels are? I have never had any symptoms of a Mineral deficiency but just thought it would be nice to know how my levels are and also What should the normal levels be?

http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/county.php?place=f48245&el=P&rf=south-central


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

*Average concentrations of elements in Pitt County, North Carolina*

*(Calculated from cells in the geochemical grid plotting in this area.)*
ElementSymbolMeanStd. dev.MinimumMaximum
AluminumAl (wt%)1.863 0.396 1.106 3.464
ArsenicAs (ppm)3.552 1.887 0.639 12.704
CalciumCa (wt%)0.116 0.057 0.033 0.313
CopperCu (ppm)4.912 1.134 1.567 8.948
IronFe (wt%)0.941 0.168 0.568 1.650
MercuryHg (ppm)0.035 0.011 0.010 0.070
MagnesiumMg (wt%)0.049 0.015 0.020 0.111
ManganeseMn (ppm)204.105 41.860 95.657 339.064
SodiumNa (wt%)0.113 0.055 0.019 0.257
PhosphorusP (wt%)0.031 0.013 0.005 0.089
LeadPb (ppm)19.097 3.812 9.253 30.293
SeleniumSe (ppm)0.267 0.070 0.104 0.497 
TitaniumTi (wt%)0.700 0.095 0.442 1.114
ZincZn (ppm)23.959 8.548 8.275 58.584

This one is the lowest I've seen yet on everything. Copper less then half of the minimum of 10ppm, Selenium right at the lowest minimum. Calcium, phosporus, iron, magnesium all very low. 
I'd be inclined to decide that their forage and hay weren't supplying them much at all and making up for it with the best minerals I could find, copper bolusing, and selenium (Bo.Se or paste).


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## IrishRoots (Jan 7, 2013)

Goathiker, will you be my hero?  I think you may be a genius...


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

This right here is one of the main reasons I love TGS. Its like having a University full of experts at your fingertips. Everyone here has so much information and so willing to share.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks goat hiker!!! I have loose minerals as well as a mineral block. I've been thinking they looked like they need copper boluses. I'll start looking into it and get it done. Thanks so much fora looking into it! I really appreciate it!


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## WillowGem (Aug 3, 2011)

IrishRoots said:


> Goathiker, will you be my hero?  I think you may be a genius...


I am so impressed with goathiker's smarts...I know she's a genius!


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