# Learning to Critique for Dummies 1.5



## margaret

Or whatever you want to call it.
Here it is, the sequel to the 100+ page Learning to critique thread.
So, anyone want goats critiqued? 
Oh and most of us just do dairy, CPK does meat goats though.
If your goats didn't get done on the last thread, post 'em here!
Also keep in mind, it's very hard to critique goats that aren't set up so if you get good pics you'll get a more complete critique


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## LadySecret

Maybe you guys could critique Jasper for me.









And here is Flicka









And this is Freya









Thanks!


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## margaret

Absolutely! Will do when I get on the computer


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## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> Or whatever you want to call it.
> Here it is, the sequel to the 100+ page Learning to critique thread.
> So, anyone want goats critiqued?
> Oh and most of us just do dairy, CPK does meat goats though.
> If your goats didn't get done on the last thread, post 'em here!
> Also keep in mind, it's very hard to critique goats that aren't set up so if you get good pics you'll get a more complete critique


:wahoo: Learning to Critique for Dummies 1.5 here we come 

Thanks for mentioning I do meat goats, Margaret 

I'm not an expert on meat goats yet, but I try to do a good job on them  Would definitely like more meat goats posted so I can learn more! Since "learning to Critique" mostly had dairy goats. 
I enjoy doing dairy goats as well 

I'll add, besides setting your goats up, lighting is inportant as well. A dark, shaded picture can make it difficult to see and critique proper. Also, don't "shoot" down at the goat when taking a picture; get down at their level.

Here's a thread on taking good pictures of goats  http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f193/taking-good-pictures-your-goats-how-160191/

Enjoy! Looking forward to critiquing some goats!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Jasper:

Pros:
-She's cute and
-Her coloring is really cool! 
-Nice width in forehead
-Nice ear set
-Sharp withers
-Good brisket
-Shoulder is nice and tight
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-Good body capacity
-Nice long topline
-Topline is fairly level
-Rump is a nice length
-Back legs are nicely angled
-Well balanced hindquarter
-Overall a well balanced little girl
-Her build is stocky, but still feminine
-Uphill
-Legs are well built


Cons:
-Could be a bit more refined for a Nigerian - but I like her 
-Neck could be a bit longer ?
-Rump is steep
-Could have a bit more brisket


Ok, so I have NOT done this girl justice  But that's all I've got right now


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## margaret

I'm too tired right now but I WILL do Flicka when I get a chance


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## nigies4ever

Critique Miss Athena for me?


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## Barnes19

Aha a new thread! I'd like to join the fray ... I want to learn more than the basics of conformation ... I've been watching the last thread but it was a bit too disorganised to jump into!

I'm rather new though so I hope someone will come along and correct my bumbling errors before anyone takes them as gospel!

So here's my observations on Flicka:
Rump short and steep
Lacks heart girth
Chine could be better ... I think?
Nice front legs, they look strong to me although she could stand them nicer ... they're stuck out in front
Good shoulder
Long neck
Looks healthy .... this I'm a better judge of!!LOL

Freya:
I like her better
Rump still short and steep
Heart girth is much better
Good capacity
Chine is better ... topline pretty good in fact.
Nice withers
Shoulders and brisket look good to me
Legs are not as sturdy as the others, but they seem straight and sound, I'd be happy with them ... is a little slenderness a fault?

I'm not sure this is very important to conformation, but her throatlatch looks a little thick to me? I like to see it clean, slender and sharper in my goats. Other than that, her neck is nice.


Can't wait to have this picked apart! I hope I haven't put anyone terribly wrong, but the only way to learn is to be corrected ... and the title did say "For Dummies" LOL.


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## Barnes19

Ok she's new ... maybe I will take another shot and then wait to see someone come along and correct.

Miss Athena.

Ok obviously she is uphill, has a straight long topline, a strong chine, and a level rump.
I've seen longer rumps, but its not really short either so OK.
I'm seeing nice front legs and brisket. I think she has a good shoulder as well, but I'm still having trouble seeing those very clearly.
She has a lovely long neck.

To me I'm seeing ... and I'm going to have to diverge from traditional language here to describe it ... her belly is too slender at the back. It has an upward slope.

I'm seeing a funny little kink in her topline in front of her hips. I've never seen a goat with such a straight rump in real life so I'm not sure is this a normal effect in front of the leveled rump?

Now come on someone, disparage my results!


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## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> Ok she's new ... maybe I will take another shot and then wait to see someone come along and correct.
> 
> Miss Athena.
> 
> Ok obviously she is uphill, has a straight long topline, a strong chine, and a level rump.
> I've seen longer rumps, but its not really short either so OK.
> I'm seeing nice front legs and brisket. I think she has a good shoulder as well, but I'm still having trouble seeing those very clearly.
> She has a lovely long neck.
> 
> To me I'm seeing ... and I'm going to have to diverge from traditional language here to describe it ... her belly is too slender at the back. It has an upward slope.
> 
> I'm seeing a funny little kink in her topline in front of her hips. I've never seen a goat with such a straight rump in real life so I'm not sure is this a normal effect in front of the leveled rump?
> 
> Now come on someone, disparage my results!


Thanks! I'm pretty sure those are her hip bones, but I'd have to take a second look.


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## BrokenArrowRanch

Here's a picture of my 2 nigis to critique. Brown doe is pretty heavy with her second pregnancy. They both usually have flatter backs. The black and whites rump isn't usually as steep either. Will dig up some better pics and some udder pics.


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## Barnes19

Miss Athena ... They may very well be just her hip bones ... its a little hard to see with someone's leg right behind ... I will be interested to see the verdict from someone with more experience. If the spine itself is straight I'd say its all good.

How old is she?


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## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> They may very well be ... its a little hard to see with someone's leg right behind ... I will be interested to see the verdict from someone with more experience. If the spine itself is straight I'd say its all good.
> 
> How old is she?


The spine itself is definitely straight.  I think it may be the angle of the pic. She was 6 months old in this pic, now 11 months. I've been told she's big for her age but I've never put her next to a La Mancha her same age, so not sure.


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## Barnes19

I'd say that is very well grown for 6 mo. She's a nice girl


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## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> I'd say that is very well grown for 6 mo. She's a nice girl


Thank you!  she's a real sweetheart


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## LadySecret

Thanks everyone for your critiques.


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## Crossroads Boers

Here's a meat goat for somebody to critique. This is Poppy, my 2nd favorite doe here at Crossroads.  Pictured at 8 months. Last picture at 5 months.


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## Crossroads Boers

Here's another... this is Rainbows.


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## nigies4ever

Crossroads Boers said:


> Here's a meat goat for somebody to critique. This is Poppy, my 2nd favorite doe here at Crossroads.  Pictured at 8 months. Last picture at 5 months.


I have no idea how to critique boers but Poppy is probably one of the best-looking goats I've ever seen!


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## spidy1

I'm here!!!!! With Cylipso (black) and Feona ( cou cliar)... Fe's 6 months and precocious, Cylipso's 10 months and hunched due to cold weather ( I don't know why they didn't lode in order)


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## margaret

Flicka
Cons:
~short rump
~steep rump
~needs to be more uphill
~just a little weak in the topline
~Hocks are not parallel with pinbones
~Needs to be stronger in the front feet.
Pros:
~Long lean neck
~good brisket
~sharp withers
~good angulation 
~good dairy character
~strong pasterns
~nice tight toes
~Smoothly blended in the neck/withers
~Doesn't look to toe out

A little short but I'm really tired so at least I have an excuse:razz:


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## margaret

Barnes19 said:


> Ok she's new ... maybe I will take another shot and then wait to see someone come along and correct.
> 
> Miss Athena.
> 
> Ok obviously she is uphill, has a straight long topline, a strong chine, and a level rump.
> I've seen longer rumps, but its not really short either so OK.
> I'm seeing nice front legs and brisket. I think she has a good shoulder as well, but I'm still having trouble seeing those very clearly.
> She has a lovely long neck.
> 
> To me I'm seeing ... and I'm going to have to diverge from traditional language here to describe it ... her belly is too slender at the back. It has an upward slope.
> 
> I'm seeing a funny little kink in her topline in front of her hips. I've never seen a goat with such a straight rump in real life so I'm not sure is this a normal effect in front of the leveled rump?
> 
> Now come on someone, disparage my results!


Good job:thumbup:


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## margaret

Barnes19 said:


> Aha a new thread! I'd like to join the fray ... I want to learn more than the basics of conformation ... I've been watching the last thread but it was a bit too disorganised to jump into!
> 
> I'm rather new though so I hope someone will come along and correct my bumbling errors before anyone takes them as gospel!
> 
> So here's my observations on Flicka:
> Rump short and steep
> Lacks heart girth
> Chine could be better ... I think?
> Nice front legs, they look strong to me although she could stand them nicer ... they're stuck out in front
> Good shoulder
> Long neck
> Looks healthy .... this I'm a better judge of!!LOL
> 
> Freya:
> I like her better
> Rump still short and steep
> Heart girth is much better
> Good capacity
> Chine is better ... topline pretty good in fact.
> Nice withers
> Shoulders and brisket look good to meShe needs more brisket
> Legs are not as sturdy as the others, but they seem straight and sound, I'd be happy with them ... is a little slenderness a fault?
> 
> I'm not sure this is very important to conformation, but her throatlatch looks a little thick to me? I like to see it clean, slender and sharper in my goats. Other than that, her neck is nice.
> 
> Can't wait to have this picked apart! I hope I haven't put anyone terribly wrong, but the only way to learn is to be corrected ... and the title did say "For Dummies" LOL.


You did good
You should keep following this thread and doing critiques IT REALLY helped me on the last thread, you should see my first "critiques" compared to the ones I did recently, I've learned so much!


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## Bree_6293

this is my little boer buck kid (may still be wethered though)

















Above two pictures are at 2 - 2 and a half weeks of age.

The pictures below are at 3-5 days old

























Owned by 16 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 8 horses, 4 dogs, 6 cats, 9 parrots and too many chickens to count!


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## Barnes19

Oh cool thanks ... I'll have another shot.

I love the boers ... I also don't know much about meat goats so I'll have to go looking for info on the differences. I've had boers ... never that solid though.

For the two nigis on post 11, page 2.


Black and white
Pros - 
Good length of body
Long Neck
Good shoulders
Nice sharp wither
Good legs and strong pasterns
Well-sprung ribs

Cons -
Weak chine
Rump short and steep ... in this photo. Would like a better angle.
Heart girth not as deep as the brown one, although not bad

Her chine is seriously not good, but otherwise I like her best. I love her length and her clean lines, although it has to be said I may be baised because I like her colour and her pretty face!

Brown
Pros
Much better chine.
Good withers
Good shoulder
Good legs, front and back
Nice depth of heart girth

Cons - 
She looks downhill ... but this may be partly the slope she stands on
Short steep rump
Pasterns are hard to see ... might be a bit long and weak, but not badly.
She looks a little herring gutted ... this may be partly she is standing downhill ... but on the other hand she is pregnant so I'd be concerned that she will be even more slender after kidding.


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## Bree_6293

Here is my other boer doe 









Owned by 16 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 8 horses, 4 dogs, 6 cats, 9 parrots and too many chickens to count!


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## BrokenArrowRanch

So I'm thinking of buying one, or both of the following boer does. Both are reg. But I don't know anything about boer bloodlines. I think I like doe 2 better except she looks pretty short backed. 
Doe 1








Doe 2.


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## Bree_6293

BrokenArrowRanch said:


> So I'm thinking of buying one, or both of the following boer does. Both are reg. But I don't know anything about boer bloodlines. I think I like doe 2 better except she looks pretty short backed.
> Doe 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doe 2.


I am very new to this so I might be completely wrong but, how else am I going to learn! Haha 
I think doe 1 is nicer. She seems to have a deeper chest and nicer rump than doe 2

Owned by 16 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 8 horses, 4 dogs, 6 cats, 9 parrots and too many chickens to count!


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## Bree_6293

But I think number 2 has the better shoulders?? 


Owned by 16 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 8 horses, 4 dogs, 6 cats, 9 parrots and too many chickens to count!


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## Barnes19

Six of one, half a dozen of the other!

Doe 1 has lovely length, the best rump, the best heart girth, generally more depth and capacity in the body ... I know thats not emphasized in meat breeds like it is in dairy, but still it speaks of ability to eat and digest more which is always a good thing.

Doe 2 is more solidly and meatily built ... I can see more meat on the shoulders, neck, loin, and (for want of a better word) the buttock as well.

Thats a good thing in a meat goat ... after all meat is what you want, and if she has it she will kid it ... but she does have less body capacity, and she is short.

Overall I prefer #1, but I'd love to be able to transplant #2's meatiness onto her!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> Aha a new thread! I'd like to join the fray ... I want to learn more than the basics of conformation ... I've been watching the last thread but it was a bit too disorganized to jump into!
> 
> I'm rather new though so I hope someone will come along and correct my bumbling errors before anyone takes them as gospel!
> 
> So here's my observations on Flicka:
> 
> Rump short and steep (good)
> Lacks heart girth ( her heart girth isn't too bad, but could be a tad better)
> Chine could be better ... I think? (Yes, she has a weak-ish chine)
> Nice front legs, they look strong to me although she could stand them nicer ... they're stuck out in front ( Right again. Her front legs are nice and straight, with nice cannon bone length and good pasterns. But they are not set squarely under her...which makes it look like she lacks brisket. But she's not, I think her brisket is good)
> Good shoulder ( it's fairly good, could be a bit better shaped though)
> Long neck ( right on! neck is a good length, it's also feminine and refined)
> Looks healthy .... this I'm a better judge of!!LOL (hehe )
> 
> Freya:
> I like her better
> Rump still short and steep (correct)
> Heart girth is much better (Yup. Nice heart girth on her)
> Good capacity ( right on!)
> Chine is better ... topline pretty good in fact. ( Yup. Topline and chine are better then Flicka's )
> Nice withers (withers are nice, fairly sharp)
> Shoulders and brisket look good to me ( correct. I like her shoulders better then Flicka's )
> Legs are not as sturdy as the others, but they seem straight and sound, I'd be happy with them ... is a little slenderness a fault? ( her legs are good...a little slenderness isn't a fault. It's a dairy trait  )
> 
> I'm not sure this is very important to conformation, but her throatlatch looks a little thick to me? I like to see it clean, slender and sharper in my goats. Other than that, her neck is nice. ( it's a considered a fault, not a major one, but it still is. A sharper, cleaner throat latch would be nice. I think her neck is a tad ewe necked, ( see how it doesn't smoothly blend with withers,) and the underside isn't straight. It's slightly bent down)
> 
> Can't wait to have this picked apart! I hope I haven't put anyone terribly wrong, but the only way to learn is to be corrected ... and the title did say "For Dummies" LOL.


There you are! My thoughts are in green and red


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> Ok she's new ... maybe I will take another shot and then wait to see someone come along and correct.
> 
> Miss Athena.
> 
> Ok obviously she is uphill, has a straight long topline, a strong chine, and a level rump. (correct, correct, correct and correct!)
> I've seen longer rumps, but its not really short either so OK. (yup)
> I'm seeing nice front legs and brisket. I think she has a good shoulder as well, but I'm still having trouble seeing those very clearly. ( She has good front legs and brisket  she also has a nice shoulder )
> She has a lovely long neck. (yup)
> 
> To me I'm seeing ... and I'm going to have to diverge from traditional language here to describe it ... her belly is too slender at the back. It has an upward slope. (She lacks depth and capacity in her rear barrel. )
> 
> I'm seeing a funny little kink in her topline in front of her hips. I've never seen a goat with such a straight rump in real life so I'm not sure is this a normal effect in front of the leveled rump? ( not sure what that is...may come from her hips not being situated a bit more forward. Her rump is a tad short )
> 
> Now come on someone, disparage my results!


And there you are again


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> Oh cool thanks ... I'll have another shot.
> 
> I love the boers ... I also don't know much about meat goats so I'll have to go looking for info on the differences. I've had boers ... never that solid though.
> 
> For the two nigis on post 11, page 2.
> 
> Black and white
> Pros -
> Good length of body
> Long Neck
> Good shoulders
> Nice sharp withers
> Good legs and strong pasterns
> Well-sprung ribs
> 
> ( ^^ all right  good job )
> 
> Cons -
> Weak chine (yup)
> Rump short and steep ... in this photo. Would like a better angle. ( rump is only a bit steep, it's not short. Rump is actually a nice length  )
> Heart girth not as deep as the brown one, although not bad ( her heart girth is good...not lacking too much. )
> 
> Her chine is seriously not good, but otherwise I like her best. I love her length and her clean lines, although it has to be said I may be biased because I like her colour and her pretty face!
> 
> Brown
> Pros
> Much better chine.
> Good withers
> Good shoulder
> Good legs, front and back
> Nice depth of heart girth
> 
> (^^ correct )
> 
> Cons -
> She looks downhill ... but this may be partly the slope she stands on (correct)
> Short steep rump (rump is steep, but not too short )
> Pasterns are hard to see ... might be a bit long and weak, but not badly.
> She looks a little herring gutted ... this may be partly she is standing downhill ... but on the other hand she is pregnant so I'd be concerned that she will be even more slender after kidding. (I think you mean "lacks body capacity and depth?" Which I think she might be )


And there


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## margaret

Miss Athena
Cons
~Needs to be a little more uphill
~Little short in the rump
~Looks a little hocky, not quite sure though
~Glitch in the topline/rump
~Very slightly ewe necked
Pros
~Long lean neck
~Good length of body
~Good angularity
~Good dairy character
~Well angulated rear legs
~Good brisket
~Sharp withers
~Level topline
~Strong topline
~Smooth topline
~Strong chine
~Strong pasterns
~Smoothly blended in the neck/withers
~Fair body capacity and depth


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## Cedar Point Kikos

I sure hope Lacie, Ariella, or some other 'teacher' from Learning To Critique shows up soon! 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Flicka:

Pros:
-Nice long jaw
-Nostrils open and clean
-Nice ear set
-Neck is long, feminine and refined
-Good brisket
-Clean, sharp withers
-Neck blends nicely into withers, shoulder and brisket
-Fore pasterns are short and upright
-Front legs are sturdy and well built
-Fairly good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in middle barrel
-Nice body length
-Fairly good overall body capacity
-Good cannon bone length
-Fairly good chest floor
-Nice incurve to thigh
-Back legs are a nice angle
-Good dairy character



Cons:
-Shoulder is a little narrow (front to back)
-Lacks dairy wedge
-Lacks a bit of depth in rear barrel
-Short rump
-Steep rump
-Downhill from hips
-Back legs are set too far back
-Would like to see a smoother, better blended body


I think her chine would be better if her front legs were set squarely under her.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Freya:

Pros:
-Long jaw
-Nice ear set
-Good neck length
-Good brisket
-Fairly clean withers (could be a tad sharper)
-Nice shoulder, tight and balanced
-Good straight front legs
-Front pasterns are a nice angle
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-Good body capacity
-Topline is pretty good
-Well blended body
-Smooth, well attached body
-Nice incurve to thigh
-Nicely angled, well placed back legs
-Good back pasterns


Cons:
-Thick throat latch
-Slightly ewe necked
-Short bodied
-Short steep rump
-Not uphill
-Could be more refined
-Hips are higher then withers


The thing that really stands out to me is her short body, made shorter looking by her depth 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## margaret

Calipso
Cons:
~Not uphill,needs to be taller in the withers
~Short body
~Short rump
~Steep rump
~needs a leaner neck
~short neck
~A little weak in the topline

Pros
~Strong rear pasterns
~good brisket
~well angulated rear legs
~OK strength in the chine
~sharp withers
~smoothly blended neck/withers
~Fair body capapcity
~Fair depth in heart girth
~Fair depth in barrel
~Straight front legs
~Straight strong rear legs
~Nice tight toes
~Strong deep jaw
Well that's a little better...........I shouldn't make a habit of doing critiques when I'm tired


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## Scottyhorse

Hi guys :lol:


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## Cedar Point Kikos

:dancedgi: Wohoo! :wahoo: Sydney's here!!! Welcome back, teacher opcorn:


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Could you wait to do the two boer does till after I do them, please Sydney?


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## crazygoatlady_inthemaking

3 1/2 weeks old boer buckling market show prospect






















What do y'all think about him?


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## Scottyhorse

Sure, CPK


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## Scottyhorse

He's looking pretty cool for so young. Looks like he'll turn out pretty great if you put the feed and exercise in him.


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## crazygoatlady_inthemaking

Scottyhorse said:


> He's looking pretty cool for so young. Looks like he'll turn out pretty great if you put the feed and exercise in him.


Thank you


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## nigies4ever

nigies4ever said:


> Critique Miss Athena for me?


Sydney...from everyone's replies I take it you're the conformation queen?  Want to do Athena for me?


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Scottyhorse said:


> Sure, CPK


I meant Crossroads's Poppy & Rainbows...not BrokenArrowRanch's two "May Buy" does  Just for clarification


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## Cedar Point Kikos

I'm startin' lists!  That way later it won't be so difficult 

And if you get confused with some of the names:

CPK = Cedar Point Kikos
Stacey = Barnes19
Bree = Bree_6293
Sydney = Scottyhorse
Brandi = Spidy1
Lacie = Little-Bits-N-Pieces

If you want your name 'shorted' to initials so it's easier on me D), just say so  And if you are teacher from Learning to Critique, please introduce yourself! So that our newest trainee's know who's a learner and who's a teacher! 


Goats that have been done/who did them:

*Jasper *( CPK )
*Flicka *(Stacey, CPK, Margaret )
*Freya* ( Stacey, CPK )
*Athena* ( Stacey, Margaret )
*Cylipso *( Margaret)
^^^ All on Page 1: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/

*BrokenArrowRanch's two nigies* ( Stacey )
^^^ On Page 2: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index2.html

*BrokenArrowRanch's two "May Buy" Boer Does* (Bree, Stacey )
^^^ Page 3: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index3.html


Goats NOT done: ( at the time of this post)

*Crossroads POPPY
Crossroads RAINBOW
Fiona*
^^^ All on Page 2: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index2.html

*Bree_6293's Boer buckling
Bree_6293's Boer Doe*
^^^ On Page 3: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index5.html

*crazygoatlady_inthemaking's Boer Buckling*
^^^ On Page 4: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index4.html


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## margaret

nigies4ever said:


> Sydney...from everyone's replies I take it you're the conformation queen?  Want to do Athena for me?


Conformation queen would be Lacie:lol: but Sydney is very good too


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Lacie = Little-Bits-N-Pieces  :lol:


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## Scottyhorse

My thoughts on Athena:

Pros:
Nice depth of body in the front barrel, middle, and rear. 
Legs are in line with withers. 
Brisket extension is nice. 
Strong front legs. 
Topline is very level.
Rump is level. 
Good length of body.
Smooth lending throughout.
Nice rear leg set. 
Neck blends well into chest floor. 
Pasterns look pretty good (a bit hard to tell in the deep shavings)
Appears to have good breed character (ears, face)
She has nice shoulders. 

Cons:
Would like to see her more uphill; she would look a lot more balanced. 
I would like to see just a bit more refinement. Just a bit. 
Looks like she toes out in rear, possibly in front?
I would like to see her neck a bit longer, and just a tad longer. Again, it would help improve her balance.
I would like to see her withers sharper, as well as a smoother blending from her neck into her withers. 
I would like to see her just a tick longer in the rump. 
She looks like she might be a bit narrow between the hocks and rump. 

I also saw a few comments on the 'hitch' or 'lump' at her hip bones. I have seen a lot of yearling dairy goats with this, I think once they are mature and put more cover over the loin area it will fill in that spot and smooth it out.


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## bbpygmy

2 year old Nigerian doe 
I realize these are horrible pics but it's all I have...


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## spidy1

Spidy1= Brandi :grin:


----------



## Bree_6293

Haha ok  fine by me  I want to learn to critique too so any one have one for me to try? I want to know if I am doing any good in learning the conformation of a goat! A horse I would be fine!! Haha but I have only owned goats for 8 months now..


Owned by 10 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 10 horses, 4 dogs, 7 cats, 9 parrots 23 chickens and 2 roosters!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Bree_6293 said:


> Haha ok  fine by me  I want to learn to critique too so any one have one for me to try? I want to know if I am doing any good in learning the conformation of a goat! A horse I would be fine!! Haha but I have only owned goats for 8 months now...


That's what we've made these thread for! Glad to hear you want to learn  I must say, "Learning to Critique" REALLY helped me a lot 

I would suggest trying one of Crossroads's Boer does (Poppy or Rainbows) if you're interested in learning meat critiques (I'll wait to do them till you have ) 
or if you're interested more in dairy, Jasper or Athena  Since all those goats are set up really well.

Or, try doing Flicka and then read over the posts that other folks have done on her, and see if you can find what is all mentioned by other peoples critiques  Since 3 people have done her so far 

All the mentioned goats are listed on my 'list' that is on page 5  Have fun!


----------



## Bree_6293

Ok I will try one of the boer girls asap  let's hope all my reading pays of a little bit!! Haha


Owned by 10 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 10 horses, 4 dogs, 7 cats, 9 parrots 23 chickens and 2 roosters!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

BrokenArrowRanch's "May Buy" Boer does:

Doe #1:

Pros:
-Nice breed definition in head/ears/horns
-Good brisket
-Neck is thick, but still feminine
-Shoulder is well set
-Nice clean withers
-Front legs are stocky and well built
-Front pasterns are at a nice angle
-Good chest floor
-Smooth, well blended body
-Lovely body length
-Topline is fairly strong for a Boer
-Looks like she has fairly good capacity
-Nice length in chine
-Rump length is really nice
-Rump isn't too steep
-Hindquarter is well set and fairly thick
-Big boned
-Legs (fore and back) are well placed and sturdy
-I REALLY nice the length in this doe. Her rump is a good length too. She has room in her to carry kids. A nice production doe, and if bred to a really thick, meaty buck, her kids should be real nice!


Cons:
-Neck is a bit short
-Lacks heel in front feet
-Lacks depth in whole barrel
-Lacks depth in heart girth
-What really bugs me about her, is her lack of depth and short neck. And her shoulder - it is well set, but lacks power, I think.


Doe #2:

Pros:
-Again, nice breed definition in head
-Nice long neck
-Neck is thick and feminine
-Good brisket
-Shoulder is well set and balanced
-Front legs are sturdy and well set
-Front pasterns are at a good angle
-Good depth in rear barrel
-Nicely rounded, full hindquarters
-Rump is a ok length, doe #1's rump is longer
-She has a thicker, more powerful shoulder then doe #1
-Good bone
-Well set legs


Cons:
-I think she lacks depth in her heart girth and middle barrel as well
-Her topline is also not near as good as doe #1's
-She's short bodied



I think the only things Doe#2 has over Doe#1 is:
-Neck length
-Shoulder power
-Thickness in rump and shoulder


Doe#1, I think, is better then Doe#2, examples:
-Body length
-Rump length
-Capacity
-Topline
-Balanced-ness in body


They both lack in body depth, imo


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Now, hopefully Sydney does those two girls!  (hint, hint  )


----------



## Bree_6293

Ok here is my first attempt! 
I mainly breed australian mini goats and own 2 boers so I may be completely wrong with what I am looking at so I apologise in advance!!

Poppy
Pros:
Good width of chest 
Ok brisket
Good strong top line
Good length of back
Strong nice hind quarters 

Cons:
Maybe not a great brisket (sorry I can't tell from these photos! My inexperience)
Maybe a slightly short face? Or is this right for a boer??
Lacks a bit of body depth?

Rainbow:
Pros:
Good body depth
Good brisket
Strong top line
Good length of neck
Nice wide chest

Cons: 
Slightly down hill
Short rump??



Owned by 10 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 10 horses, 4 dogs, 7 cats, 9 parrots 23 chickens and 2 roosters!


----------



## Bree_6293

Sorry it's not very in depth haha


Owned by 10 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 10 horses, 4 dogs, 7 cats, 9 parrots 23 chickens and 2 roosters!


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## spidy1

Here's Scarlet, not the best pics...


----------



## nigies4ever

Scottyhorse said:


> My thoughts on Athena:
> 
> Pros:
> Nice depth of body in the front barrel, middle, and rear.
> Legs are in line with withers.
> Brisket extension is nice.
> Strong front legs.
> Topline is very level.
> Rump is level.
> Good length of body.
> Smooth lending throughout.
> Nice rear leg set.
> Neck blends well into chest floor.
> Pasterns look pretty good (a bit hard to tell in the deep shavings)
> Appears to have good breed character (ears, face)
> She has nice shoulders.
> 
> Cons:
> Would like to see her more uphill; she would look a lot more balanced.
> I would like to see just a bit more refinement. Just a bit.
> Looks like she toes out in rear, possibly in front?
> I would like to see her neck a bit longer, and just a tad longer. Again, it would help improve her balance.
> I would like to see her withers sharper, as well as a smoother blending from her neck into her withers.
> I would like to see her just a tick longer in the rump.
> She looks like she might be a bit narrow between the hocks and rump.
> 
> I also saw a few comments on the 'hitch' or 'lump' at her hip bones. I have seen a lot of yearling dairy goats with this, I think once they are mature and put more cover over the loin area it will fill in that spot and smooth it out.


Thanks so much! Can I ask what "refinement" means? I know the definition of the term, just curious to how it relates to the scorecard


----------



## margaret

Sorry if you're meat goats aren't getting critiqued.......I know nothing about meat though.


----------



## Barnes19

Ok I'm taking a punt at a boer ... Scarlet.

Facial type and ears good and correct for her breed.
Overall build is strong and heavy as she should be. 
Obviously nowhere near the powerhouse that Poppy and Rainbows have, but they are exceptional in that respect! 
Looks a little slender in the front in pics 1 and 2 but picture 3 shows better depth of heart girth.
Depth of body is good, particularly at the rear. Excellent body capacity for a boer!
Good length of body
Rump is steep, but this is made to look worse by her coloured patch back there.
Pasterns are strong
Legs are good, sturdy and strong all round
Heart girth ... could she use a little more? I'm not sure.

Shoulder could blend into withers better
Neck could blend into shoulders better
I don't like the way the withers look ... largely because of the way the shoulder bulges out of them. A stronger, more muscluar back would correct this.
I think she lacks Brisket ... I'd like someone else to comment on this?
Neck is short
Proportionally, her rear is much more solidly built than her front.
Her chine is a bone of contention to me ... fairly normal for a boer, can't really complain much, but both Poppy and Rainbows have much stronger toplines, so obviously it has room for improvement.
Slightly downhill.


----------



## Barnes19

Now that I've gone and done Scarlet, I've got to do Poppy and Rainbows they are so beautiful they can't be left out!

Poppy.
Man she's awesome. Got to be an exemplary doe, I love her.
Her overall build is really strong and solid, she's built like a tank, but still lovely and feminine.
How a goat can pull off such a strong build and powerful stance and still look like a lady is beyond me ... but she's gorgeous.
She has a good strong straight topline, particularly for a boer this is impressive.
Her rump is a little hard to see, but it is certainly nice and level, and I think it has decent length for a boer as well.
Her legs and pasterns are all strong and sturdy.
The breadth of her chest and the wide set of her front legs are amazing.
Her neck is lovely, decent length, strong, and well blended into her body.
She has well-sprung ribs.
Her depth of body is excellent.
Her body capacity is good.
Her length of body is good too!
Her brisket looks good.
I love the look on her face ... she's a queen and she knows it!

Cons ... er lets see if I can find any LOL.

I think she is downhill. She appears to be standing on a slope in the images which hides it.
Her wither could do with more definition.

Overall ... can I have her? Pleeeeeease??? **Flutters eyelashes and whines like sad puppy**


----------



## Barnes19

Rainbows.

Strong level topline
Rump is short, but thats not unusual for a boer, and its level.
Spring of ribs is good ... maybe not as much as Poppy's.
Legs are good strong and sturdy.
Looks a little posty in the rear legs, but this is I think fairly standard for a boer?
Smooth strong shoulder
Long neck, blending into the body
Nice withers ... could be a little sharper, but not really a problem
She has good depth and capacity in her rear barrel ;-)
Good brisket

Hard to find faults in your goats ... they're too good!

She is downhill ... again the ground hides it.
Her chest isn't as broad as Poppy's, but still good so can't really complain about that.

She doesn't stand like she owns the world the way Poppy does!


----------



## Barnes19

Going to do Fiona ... I think no-one has yet?

Uphill
Good broad spacing between the back legs ... plenty of room for udder.
Nice withers
Good front legs
Shoulder is nice
Good depth of heart girth
Body capacity and depth is good ... taking into account her age.
Nice Dairy wedge ... also taking into account her age.
Good spring of ribs, I think ... little hard to tell
Love the wattles

Rump is steep
Chine lacks strength ... would like to see a more level topline
Ewe necked
Lacks brisket
Rear legs are set strongly angled a long way back ... it could be partly how she is standing.

Does she have a touch of the dreaded Fishtail?


----------



## Bree_6293

Barnes19 did you want to do my two that are on this forum? I have an adult boer doe and a boer buck kid 


Owned by 10 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 10 horses, 4 dogs, 7 cats, 9 parrots 23 chickens and 2 roosters!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Go Stacey!  Great job at all of them  I hope to come tomorrow and do the 3 Boers you've listed 

...I just haven't gotten around to doing them yet


----------



## Barnes19

Thats true I thought there was some more!

Going back to find Bree's goats ... 

Ok little buck kid first ... hard to tell with a kid ...

Quite the manly little guy, hes really going to be something
He's a stocky, heavy set kid
Nice Length
Has a little dip in his chine ... boers are a bit like that though, and if it stays how it is as he grows its pretty good
Overall a nice strong back, well muscled and wide
His rump is nice and level ... for a boer anyway
His withers are clean and sharp
Hard to say on a kid, but he has a look of future well-sprung ribs and gut capacity
Pasterns are nice and short
Nice width between his front legs at this age ... probably will have a nice brisket one day, although it doesn't show from the side at all yet.

His back legs are set a long way back
His shoulder looks a little weak to me? I'm really not at all sure on that one yet

There's sure to be more show up as he matures.

The boer doe below him

Excellent body capacity
Good strong muscled girl
Nice sturdy topline, slight dip in chine but from a boer I'm happy with it
Slightly uphill
Good brisket
Good depth of heart girth
Neck is short, but clean and feminine
Rump is OK ... not too short by boer standards, although there are much longer rumps on display here ... and not too steep although it could be more level.
Short strong pasterns

Shoulders are lacking something
Wither could be more defined
Her front legs appear too small and dainty ... I'm accustomed to boers set on tree trunks
In this photo, her back legs are not perpendulicar from hock to pastern as they should be ... but she may just have stood with them slightly forward of her normal.


Is she by any chance pregnant?


There's another Boer lurking somewhere isn't there? a buck kid, future show prospect? has he been done, or has the poor little guy been left out of the action?


----------



## Barnes19

Ok still untouched are 
the 3 1/2 week old boer buckling from post #40, 
and the 2 year old Nigerian doe on post # 50.

I have to go, got to do some gardening or feeding time will come around and I have done nothing LOL.

More, and expert, critiques are called for on 
Scarlet
Poppy
Rainbows
Fiona
and Bree's boer buck kid and doe


----------



## Bree_6293

Thanks barnes19. The doe is the bucks mom 

This is dad below. That is the only photo of him I have as I don't own him, but did see him in person 









Owned by 10 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 10 horses, 4 dogs, 7 cats, 9 parrots 23 chickens and 2 roosters!


----------



## Crossroads Boers

Thanks Stacey.  We like those two girls a lot. They won several shows together in the summer with Poppy as grand and Rainbows as reserve grand.  Poppy won a champion ribbon at every show she was at last year... except the ABGA National show in Nebraska. She was 4th in 37 there. She's a super nice doe in our opinion.... but judges are confirming our thoughts on her.  

Great critiques!!


----------



## margaret

BrokenArrowRanch's brown doe.
Pros
~Good brisket
~Pasterns look pretty good
~OK withers
~Fair angulation to the body
~Fairly good depth of body
~Hocks parallel with pinbones

Cons
~Not level over the topline
~Needs a stronger topline
~Needs a more dairy neck
~Steep rump
~Posty rear legs
~Not uphill
~Looks hocky
~Looks ewe necked
~Short rump


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## Cedar Point Kikos

I WILL get around to critiquing these Boer goats sometime! Just have to get into the 'critiquin' mood


----------



## spidy1

Diesel 10 months 150+lbs... you can see Scarlet from the top in second pic


----------



## CritterCarnival

This ADGA/AGS/NDGA doe is for sale on CL for $350...what do you all think??


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I've been avoiding this thread, but do not buy that doe! Her structure is bad to put it lightly... especially for $350.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I've been avoiding this thread, but do not buy that doe! Her structure is bad to put it lightly... especially for $350.


Extremely lightly! :lol: I agree, stay away!


----------



## Barnes19

Oh dear no don't go for that doe!!

To name her most severe faults ...
Her chine is bad
Her wither is bad
She is by no means nicely built or feminine
Her rump is short and steep
Her neck is woefully short and her head is disproportionately large
And to cap it off with the piece de resistance ... she is the epitome of downhill conformation.
I've never seen such a downhill goat, she's so steep she's almost deformed. My minds eye keeps trying to translate the image as a goat kneeling down but she's clearly standing firmly on all four feet.
It actually looks painful ... makes my back ache in sympathy just looking at her. I'm sure she will have a bad spine sooner or later with that conformation poor girl.

To name a plus for her ... her body capacity is surprisingly OK ... and her pasterns are strong ... but thats scraping the barrel to find something good to say about her. She should not be allowed to be bred, and I would never buy such a goat.

I can't help but wonder how she happened in the first place ... just terrible breeding in mating two strongly downhill animals, or could severe malnutrition while growing have produced this? I feel sorry for her. I'm sure she's probably a lovely nature from her expression ... poor little girl.


----------



## Barnes19

I'm curious ... breadth or width of rump. Is this something that is considered usually in conformation? Obviously the photos we're having here don't often show it, but is it normally something a judge would look at?

I've been told or read somewhere that a wide pelvis/rump area means easy kidding, and its certainly consistent with that in my goats and in the feral goats, so I select for it to some extent, I like to see a nice broad pin to pin distance ... does anyone else watch for this, is this a normal 'conformation thing'?


----------



## canyontrailgoats

Well, it almost looks like her front feet are in a pot hole? A level surface may change her appearance...I agree with the others, don't waste your money.

Though I must admit, she has a fantastic beard :lol:


----------



## spidy1

I guess I'm late..... :nothing to add: you guys said it perfectly, DON'T GET HER!!!!!!!


----------



## margaret

Um, yeah, DON'T GET HER!


----------



## margaret

I would like to ask that we don't have _quite_ so many meat goats posted on here because I know nothing about meat goats and mostly posted this to help people learn to critique dairy goats. Fine to post a few so people can do them but I want it to be mostly dairy


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Poppy:

Pros:
-Good breed definition
-Good width in forehead
-Strong jaw
-Thick, well muscled neck
-Neck is still feminine, and not course
-Good brisket
-Chest is wide and well muscled
-Shoulder is well placed, muscled and tight
-Neck blends very nicely into brisket, withers and shoulder
-Excellent width in chest
-Good depth in heart girth
-Front legs are sturdy, well placed and strong
-Front pasterns are at a nice angle
-Nice spring of barrel
-Nice length in chine and loin
-Good body length
-Well muscled thigh
-Hindquarter is well set and well muscled
-Overall, she's very well muscled without loosing her femininity 
-Back legs are sturdy and well set
-Big boned
-Nice even width from shoulder to hindquarter
-Excellent width between hocks


Cons:
-Chest floor could be better
-Downhill
-I would like a bit more depth in rear and middle barrel...but how old is she?
-Could use a bit more body capacity
-Rump looks a bit steep
-Twist could be deeper


Can't see rump length.  Now, I haven't done her justice with this critique!


----------



## margaret

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I've been avoiding this thread, but do not buy that doe! Her structure is bad to put it lightly... especially for $350.


Why are you avoiding this thread Lacie?:tear:
I want teacher to come critique some goats:mecry:


----------



## margaret

BBpygmy's Nigerian

Cons:
~Lacks brisket
~Weak pasterns
~Needs a more dairy neck
~weak medial
~needs a stronger rear udder
Pros:
~Long rump
~level rump
~good anuglation
~good dairy character
~well angulated rear legs
~sharp withers
~pinbones are perpendicular with hocks 
~fairly strong topline
~topline is fairly level
~uphill
~Good depth of girth
~Good depth of barrel
~Doesn't look to toe out


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Since Margaret politely asked for not quite so many meat goats I've made a new thread, just for meat goats  So everyone who posted a meat goat on here, please re-post them on this thread: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-meat-goats-1-a-175649/#post1850489

It's specifically for MEAT goats!  If you want, you can also copy your critiques over to there as well. (But only after the goat has been posted )

The meat goats on this thread are:
*BrokenArrowRanch's two "May Buy" does* (they have been done by: Bree, Stacey, CPK) 
On Page 3: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index3.html

*Crossroads POPPY & Crossroads RAINBOW* ( done by: Bree, Stacey, CPK )
on Page 2: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index2.html

*Bree_6293's Boer buckling & Boer Doe* (done by: Stacey )
On Page 3: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index5.html

*crazygoatlady_inthemaking's Boer Buckling*
On Page 4: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index4.html

*Brandi's Scarlet* (done by: Stacey )
On page 6:http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index6.html

*Brandi's Diesel*
On page 8: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index8.html


----------



## margaret

Thanks CPK Good idea


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

margaret said:


> Why are you avoiding this thread Lacie?:tear:
> I want teacher to come critique some goats:mecry:


Because I didn't want to be caught up in another giant critique thread :lol: 
Haven't I already taught you enough?! :lol:


----------



## margaret

Well yeah but I really like your critiques!
Couldn't you just drop in occasionally and do some???


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I guess, but I have a harsh opinion sometimes, I feel like mine can get a little too brutally honest :lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

But, but...Lacie!  Your critiques REALLY helped me in learning what to look for in dairy goats


----------



## spidy1

Come on Lacie...... PLEASE!


----------



## margaret

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I guess, but I have a harsh opinion sometimes, I feel like mine can get a little too brutally honest :lol:


Hey, it makes us realize what we need to fix in our goats. It really helps me
And you could at least do my babies this year.


----------



## spidy1

And mine!!!!


----------



## Barnes19

Oh, now Lacey, its much better than being soft and trying not to hurt people's feelings about their darlings when there are faults that need to be seen!

Besides ... I think saying 'harsh' and 'brutally honest' is being a bit harsh on yourself ... to be brutally honest ...

I understand completely not wanting to get caught in another mammoth thread though! Perhaps you could just pop through occasionally and correct us if we're going terribly wrong?


----------



## Barnes19

Margaret ... in your critique of BBpygmy's Nigerian ... "weak medial" ... could you define Medial please? This is a part of the anatomy I've not heard before and I'd like to know to what feature you are referring


----------



## nigies4ever

Bred my La Mancha doe to this buck...critique him?


----------



## Crossroads Boers

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Poppy:
> 
> -I would like a bit more depth in rear and middle barrel...but how old is she?


She was 8 months in those pics.  Butt picture was taken at 5 months.

Great critique.  I agree with you all the way. If I could change one thing about her.... it would be lengthening the twist.


----------



## Bree_6293

Crossroads Boers said:


> She was 8 months in those pics.  Butt picture was taken at 5 months.
> 
> Great critique.  I agree with you all the way. If I could change one thing about her.... it would be lengthening the twist.


What do you mean lengthening the twist? 
All these terms confuse me so much!

Owned by 10 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 10 horses, 4 dogs, 7 cats, 9 parrots 23 chickens and 2 roosters!


----------



## Barnes19

The twist is the muscle running down the back of the rear legs.

Lengthening the twist means just that ... she ideally wants that muscle a little longer.

I'll see if I can find a pic that shows it ... I have a guide with a sketch pointing to the twist somewhere.

Ok here it is, this is from the USBGA judges guide book, the #49 shows the twist muscle.

My apologies Margaret, this really belongs on the new meat goat forum, but as people are replying to existing goats I've got to put it here ...


----------



## margaret

'S okay Stacey


----------



## Barnes19

RE: Bred my La Mancha doe to this buck...critique him? (post #98)

Not set up the best but lets take a shot!

Strong jaw and muzzle
He is uphill
Rump Ok length
Good length of body
Topline is OK ... could be stronger and straighter, but average
Neck length is OK
Pasternd are good
front legs are good
brisket is good

Rump steep
Lacking body capacity
Needs more depth of heartgirth
Lacks depth in rear and middle barrel too
Ewe neck
Shoulder looks a little weak to me, and could blend into withers better
Not that familiar with Lamanchas, but aren't his ears a little larger than is proper for a buck?
Back legs look a little odd to me but I'm not sure why.

Conformationally, I'm not that impressed with him to be honest ... overall he looks narrow and powerless ... but the pic doesn't show him off to his best advantage either.

Could you post a pic of your doe you bred him to? I'd be interested to compare.


On a different note ... what minerals do they have him on? He looks like he could do with more copper ... he's ginger and dull ... but it may be largely his winter coat is getting old.


----------



## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> RE: Bred my La Mancha doe to this buck...critique him? (post #98)
> 
> Not set up the best but lets take a shot!
> 
> Strong jaw and muzzle
> He is uphill
> Rump Ok length
> Good length of body
> Topline is OK ... could be stronger and straighter, but average
> Neck length is OK
> Pasternd are good
> front legs are good
> brisket is good
> 
> Rump steep
> Lacking body capacity
> Needs more depth of heartgirth
> Lacks depth in rear and middle barrel too
> Ewe neck
> Shoulder looks a little weak to me, and could blend into withers better
> Not that familiar with Lamanchas, but aren't his ears a little larger than is proper for a buck?
> Back legs look a little odd to me but I'm not sure why.
> 
> Conformationally, I'm not that impressed with him to be honest ... overall he looks narrow and powerless ... but the pic doesn't show him off to his best advantage either.
> 
> Could you post a pic of your doe you bred him to? I'd be interested to compare.
> 
> On a different note ... what minerals do they have him on? He looks like he could do with more copper ... he's ginger and dull ... but it may be largely his winter coat is getting old.


He could definitely have been set up better...I think he would've looked a lot nicer had he been set up correctly. Not trying to make excuses, though  I definitely agree with some of the conformational flaws you are talking about. The doe he is bred to is Athena...the La Mancha doeling I posted on page 1. I don't know what his nutrition is like bc I don't own him.


----------



## nigies4ever

I'm gonna post his LA records (which I don't comprehend at all) later to give another idea of his conformation...


----------



## Barnes19

Have a go at this girl ... has been posted elsewhere, but I'd like a bit more in depth ... and there hasn't been many goats posted here the last couple of days so I thought I'd wake it up!

For the reference, her name is Rita, or Margarita for the long version 

One photo is a few months old, the other is recent.


----------



## nigies4ever

nigies4ever said:


> Bred my La Mancha doe to this buck...critique him?


Here are his LA records...I don't understand these at all, so if some of y'all who do would "decipher" for me, I'd really appreciate it.

http://www.adgagenetics.org/PedigreePrint.aspx?RegNumber=L001585890


----------



## Barnes19

Ah I'd wondered if it was Athena!! She's much better than him overall I think, although he has this look ... put it this way, if he suddenly got added to my herd, I would put him on minerals, worm him, feed him up, and get him out in a paddock to exercise and browse and look after some girls like a buck naturally would.

Kids should have a strong topline, be more uphill than Athena, rump somewhere between the two ... that is OK length, not as level as hers but not too steep. Body capacity ... well she's young, and he may have been fed a low-bulk concentrated diet and not developed it much ... I really couldn't predict that, too many variables. Overall, although she is better than him, which is usually the wrong way around, I think the kids will be good.


----------



## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> Ah I'd wondered if it was Athena!! She's much better than him overall I think, although he has this look ... put it this way, if he suddenly got added to my herd, I would put him on minerals, worm him, feed him up, and get him out in a paddock to exercise and browse and look after some girls like a buck naturally would.
> 
> Kids should have a strong topline, be more uphill than Athena, rump somewhere between the two ... that is OK length, not as level as hers but not too steep. Body capacity ... well she's young, and he may have been fed a low-bulk concentrated diet and not developed it much ... I really couldn't predict that, too many variables. Overall, although she is better than him, which is usually the wrong way around, I think the kids will be good.


Thanks so much! It helps that you analyzed how their kids will turn out  He comes from a huge farm (425 goats :sad, so I don't think he gets as much individual attention as he could (worming, minerals, etc.) He looked a lot better the first time I saw him then now, but oh well.

Although his top line/rump is not nearly where I'd like it to be, I've seen in several kids that he tends to pass down his dam's traits...things like level topline, good rump, etc. Anyway, hopefully kids turn out well because if they're an improvement upon Athena, I'm going to keep a doeling!  This is his dam btw...Lucky*Star's Lot Vivian.


----------



## Bree_6293

Thanks for explaining the twist  
I have australian miniature goats so I am not sure whether to post their pictures here or the meat goat page? They are not really either... 


Owned by 10 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 10 horses, 4 dogs, 7 cats, 9 parrots 23 chickens and 2 roosters!


----------



## Barnes19

Hmmm ... that record sheet looks fascinating but I'd be more use in reading a NZ pedigree record. I hope someone comes along that will be more useful!

Some similarities are readable to me ... but, there is a possibility that it works completely different, even though it appears similar, so don't take my word as gospel until someone else backs it up!

On the bottom table which is most interesting I think ... It looks like the TraitAVG column is his estimated genetic score, based on nhis family records. The columns either side are to help understand what the number means.

For instance, for each trait 5 is a low score, 45 is a high score.
25 is the center, so they think he is good on the dairiness.
The Fore udder attachment is good.
The rear udder height is high, and the rear udder arch is above average.
Udder depth is also good.
They say the teat placement is a bit wider than average ... and that the teat diameter is less than average.
Looking at his dam, I can see where they are getting his genetic udder scores from! Probably the kids will be good milkers, with teats that could use a bit more diameter.

The PTA column is Predicted Transmitting Ability ... ie how hereditary they think the trait is based on family records ... and the REL column is how reliable they think the estimate of PTA will be.

His topline may not be top-class, but hers is very strong. He is more uphill than her. Ideally the kids would go towards her strong topline and his uphillness ... but worst case scenario neither of those traits can turn out bad.

His dam looks really nice, if he throws towards her, I'd be looking forward to those kids.

I'd love to critique her, but right now I must run ... Melli has her head stuck in the fence!!


----------



## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> Hmmm ... that record sheet looks fascinating but I'd be more use in reading a NZ pedigree record. I hope someone comes along that will be more useful!
> 
> Some similarities are readable to me ... but, there is a possibility that it works completely different, even though it appears similar, so don't take my word as gospel until someone else backs it up!
> 
> On the bottom table which is most interesting I think ... It looks like the TraitAVG column is his estimated genetic score, based on nhis family records. The columns either side are to help understand what the number means.
> 
> For instance, for each trait 5 is a low score, 45 is a high score.
> 25 is the center, so they think he is good on the dairiness.
> The Fore udder attachment is good.
> The rear udder height is high, and the rear udder arch is above average.
> Udder depth is also good.
> They say the teat placement is a bit wider than average ... and that the teat diameter is less than average.
> Looking at his dam, I can see where they are getting his genetic udder scores from! Probably the kids will be good milkers, with teats that could use a bit more diameter.
> 
> The PTA column is Predicted Transmitting Ability ... ie how hereditary they think the trait is based on family records ... and the REL column is how reliable they think the estimate of PTA will be.
> 
> His topline may not be top-class, but hers is very strong. He is more uphill than her. Ideally the kids would go towards her strong topline and his uphillness ... but worst case scenario neither of those traits can turn out bad.
> 
> His dam looks really nice, if he throws towards her, I'd be looking forward to those kids.
> 
> I'd love to critique her, but right now I must run ... Melli has her head stuck in the fence!!


Interesting...I wonder how similar the NZ ones are to this one?


----------



## Barnes19

This chart is all about genetics ... the NZ ones basically give you similar classification figures, but only for animals that have been shown.

So your goat has its own set of number scores on conformation, then your pedigree sheet shows you the scores for his parents, grandparents, great, and great-great grandparents, all abbreviated after their registration number. You can ask for more generations. You're supposed to draw your own conclusions about heritability, and what average family conformations your goat is likely to carry.

The scoring works a little different too ... you gotta know how it works! It doesn't tell you "5 is bad" "45 is good" ... its all worked in with the show scoring so dairy character comes under a 0-140 number scale, conformation traits to 90, the udder characteristics score to 60, and so on. To know what the number means you have to just be in the know! But if you can decipher it, you can work out mostly the same info, although its less in depth.

It does include milk yield records though which I think is a plus ... I was rather surprised not to see that on the sheet!


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## nigies4ever

The American Dairy Goat Association registry does have a milk production test, it's just done separately. With the scores I posted, you have to have a licensed judge out to "appraise" your animal....I just have no idea how to decipher scores, lol.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Crossroads Boers said:


> She was 8 months in those pics.  Butt picture was taken at 5 months.
> 
> Great critique.  I agree with you all the way. If I could change one thing about her.... it would be lengthening the twist.


She's a beauty 

Thanks!  Glad to know I'm getting the hang of meat goat critique :razz:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> Have a go at this girl ... has been posted elsewhere, but I'd like a bit more in depth ... and there hasn't been many goats posted here the last couple of days so I thought I'd wake it up!


 Margaret asked for not quite so many meat goats, so if you would please post most of them over here: (it's a critique thread only for meat goats )

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-meat-goats-1-a-175649/index2.html


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Bree_6293 said:


> Thanks for explaining the twist
> I have australian miniature goats so I am not sure whether to post their pictures here or the meat goat page? They are not really either...
> 
> Owned by 10 miniature goats, 2 boer goats, 10 horses, 4 dogs, 7 cats, 9 parrots 23 chickens and 2 roosters!


Well, I've done a couple of your Australian Miniature goats, and I think they lean a bit more towards the dairy then meat


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## margaret

nigies4ever said:


> Bred my La Mancha doe to this buck...critique him?


He's not bad but I'm not too impressed. I do like his dam. He needs copper and minerals. I don't feel like doing an in depth critique on him now but I'll tell you some of my thoughts.
He has a nice rump, could be more level but it's not bad. He has a nice topline and he's uphill. He has good blending and nice feet and legs.
Not a lot of depth or body capacity and lacks brisket. Posty rear legs and needs a touch more anuglarity. I like Athena better.
Again, nice dam, but not a whole lot of brisket or depth.


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## margaret

I think we're caught up on dairy goats!
Come on guys, i need some more work
Here, for anyone trying to learn, do my doe Oreo.
She's clipped and set up so come take a stab.
















Oh and CPK, stick around, you do a great job with dairy goats too, don't want to lose you


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> Oh and CPK, stick around, you do a great job with dairy goats too, don't want to lose you


Why, thank you Margaret!  Okay, I won't leave


----------



## Barnes19

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Margaret asked for not quite so many meat goats, so if you would please post most of them over here: (it's a critique thread only for meat goats )
> 
> http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-meat-goats-1-a-175649/index2.html


Ahh no Rita is not a meat goat at all!!

She's all dairy, Nubian Saanen cross. The colour being positioned like boer is just a fluke. (yes I know the parents)


----------



## Barnes19

Oreo:

Long clean feminine neck
Uphill
Good depth of heartgirth
Good length of body
Nice strong straight clean front legs
Strong pasterns
Rump Ok length and fairly level
Nice sharp withers
Nice shoulder
Good brisket
Nice teats
Good fore and rear udder attachments

Would like to see a little more depth to her rear barrel
Udder could use a little more capacity ... but is she young?


----------



## Barnes19

Ok try this. Here is Rita again, with her parents.

Maybe you can see where she came from ... and where her faults came from. Could be interesting to see the inheritance.

She has plenty of faults and I know it, but she's one of my better milkers, and I'd like an in-depth critique on her so I know what to do to improve her kids. I find it really hard to see my own goats like that.

Her dam I now have, although I didn't when I first got Rita. 
The first image is her.
The second image is her sire ... I could only find a kid photo of him.
Finally Rita herself ... the colour is an odd fluke, but I think you can see where she came from.

She's 2 years old, or nearly, and she's just dried off from her first lactation. She's got really nice teats but obviously I can't show you those right now!
She milked enough to feed 3 kids and still some left over for the house. And yeah I know she doesn't look like she has the body capacity to pull that off but she did!
I dried her off a little earlier than usual and am putting some condition back on her before breeding again.


----------



## nigies4ever

Ok...I'm gonna try out Rita to bump this thread back up. 

Pros:
-Good rump length
-Good angulation in back legs
-Strong on her pasterns
-Shoulders look good

Cons:
-Steep rump
-Downhill
-top line not level 
-lacking brisket
-Looks fragile (I know this isn't really proper terminology, but idk how to explain it) 
-Face is a little more masculine than I'd like 

Both her dam and sire seem to be lacking an uphill stance and a level top line, so in my opinion that would be the most important characteristic to look for in whoever you breed her to.

I'm no expert at goatie critiquing, so if an expert wants to jump in and correct/add, awesome!


----------



## Barnes19

Ha I was just coming on to bump it and try and wake people back up!

LOL yeah funny you mention her face ... I told her ladies shouldn't look so butch but it didn't seem to make much impression! (I think its an unfortunate combo of a large saanen head and a semi-nubian shape ... its very coarse)

I agree with you ... with the reservation of questioning her shoulder ... I think also that she could do with more heart girth, and has a ewe neck ... but for some reason I'm really struggling to see my own goat! I'm too familiar with her looks. Its not that I'm denying her faults, in fact she looks quite wonky to me, its that my mental label reads only "Rita" and I'm incapable of focusing on and dismantling individual features.

The buck I have to breed her with right now is strongly uphill, but has a weak chine. My new buckling, with a strong topline, slightly uphill, is unfortunately her son.


----------



## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> Ha I was just coming on to bump it and try and wake people back up!
> 
> LOL yeah funny you mention her face ... I told her ladies shouldn't look so butch but it didn't seem to make much impression! (I think its an unfortunate combo of a large saanen head and a semi-nubian shape ... its very coarse)
> 
> I agree with you ... with the reservation of questioning her shoulder ... I think also that she could do with more heart girth, and has a ewe neck ... but for some reason I'm really struggling to see my own goat! I'm too familiar with her looks. Its not that I'm denying her faults, in fact she looks quite wonky to me, its that my mental label reads only "Rita" and I'm incapable of focusing on and dismantling individual features.
> 
> The buck I have to breed her with right now is strongly uphill, but has a weak chine. My new buckling, with a strong topline, slightly uphill, is unfortunately her son.


I'm like that with my girls too, I see them so often that I can't pick apart their conformation! And ooohh...can I see a pic of the buck?


----------



## Delilah

Alright, so I was hoping someone could critique these two Nubians for me.

Lamborghini was about 4 months old in this picture:








Florence:


----------



## margaret

Ah yes lovely clipped setup beautiful Nubians
I am reserving these 2 to do myself:lol:


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## Delilah

margaret said:


> Ah yes lovely clipped setup beautiful Nubians
> I am reserving these 2 to do myself:lol:


Haha! If you feel like you have a need to critique more just ask, there's plenty where they came from!


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## margaret

Awesome! Whenever I'm done with these, wanna post more?
I love critiquing goats like that, it's what I do when I'm bored:lol:


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## Delilah

Okay sounds great!!


----------



## Barnes19

Ooooooh yes please lets have some more nicely set up dairies!


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## Barnes19

nigies4ever said:


> I'm like that with my girls too, I see them so often that I can't pick apart their conformation! And ooohh...can I see a pic of the buck?


Sure Which one? Heres Maxi her son ... Bernie I'll grab a photo of tomorrow ... I actually have a pic of him, but I don't like it so much, he's arching his back a little and makes that already weak chine look like a saddle!

I think his biggest fault is his rump. I'd like a tad more length and a LOT more levelness.


----------



## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> Sure Which one? Heres Maxi her son ... Bernie I'll grab a photo of tomorrow ... I actually have a pic of him, but I don't like it so much, he's arching his back a little and makes that already weak chine look like a saddle!
> 
> I think his biggest fault is his rump. I'd like a tad more length and a LOT more levelness.


He's a handsome guy! Other than the rump, he's a very good improvement on her.

What does Bernie's rump look like? That's the biggest thing for her, in my opinion.


----------



## margaret

Lamborghini

Pros
~Long neck
~lean neck, although it looks to get fatter as it goes up
~Long body
~Long rump
~Level rump
~Level topline
~Strong topline
~Strong chine
~Good angulation
~Good dairy character
~Well angulated rear legs
~strong pasterns
~Smoothly blended in the neck/withers
~sharp withers
~Hocks are parallel with pinbones

Cons
~Lacks brisket
~lacks depth in heart girth
~lacks depth in barrel
~He needs to be more uphill



Very nice buckling!


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## Delilah

margaret said:


> Lamborghini
> 
> Pros
> ~Long neck
> ~lean neck, although it looks to get fatter as it goes up
> ~Long body
> ~Long rump
> ~Level rump
> ~Level topline
> ~Strong topline
> ~Strong chine
> ~Good angulation
> ~Good dairy character
> ~Well angulated rear legs
> ~strong pasterns
> ~Smoothly blended in the neck/withers
> ~sharp withers
> ~Hocks are parallel with pinbones
> 
> Cons
> ~Lacks brisket
> ~lacks depth in heart girth
> ~lacks depth in barrel
> ~He needs to be more uphill
> 
> Very nice buckling!


Thank you!! We're hoping that he'll turn out to be a nice buck like his dad!


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## margaret

Whoever asked what the medial suspensory ligament was, sorry I didn't explain sooner.
and FYI I'm REALLY bad at explaining things:lol:
"The medial suspensory ligament is an
elastic tissue that attaches the udder to
the abdominal wall. Viewed from
behind, the inter-mammary groove
marks the position of the median
suspensory ligament"

"Ideally, the two halves will be symmetrical, with a slight cleft between them"
This cleft is the medial suspensory ligament

This picture might help.
The first example, the medial is weak, the middle is what you want.









"Medial Suspensory Ligaments. These ligaments are the mainstay of a good udder. They attach the udder to the pelvic arch. What you will see is a distinct separation of the udder into the two halves, with a slight cleft, (or slight V), in the center where they meet on the udder bottom. Both sides of the udder should be the same size, or as close as possible. If the udder floor (bottom) is flat or rounded downward then there is insufficient medial suspensory ligament support. "

Sorry that I'm no good at explaining anything:lol:


----------



## Barnes19

Ah thankyou Margaret that makes perfect sense.


----------



## Barnes19

nigies4ever said:


> He's a handsome guy! Other than the rump, he's a very good improvement on her.
> 
> What does Bernie's rump look like? That's the biggest thing for her, in my opinion.


Bernie's rump is nice and long, but still steep. Its actually quite hard to find level rumps here!

I'm on my way out to snap a pic of him now ... but I'm going to pop over and run a couple of critiques on the meat goat side first if there's any left LOL.

Can we have some more dairy? We haven't got enough to go around!


----------



## margaret

Good


----------



## margaret

Florence.
Pros
~Long neck
~Lean neck
~long rump
~Long body
~Level topline 
~Fairly strong topline(I just wanna tickle her chine:lol
~Good angulation
~Good dairy character
~Well angulated rear legs
~Strong pasterns
~ sharp withers
~Hocks are parallel with pinbones
~fairly good rear udder although would like to see it a little fuller and higher
~Good fore udder attachment
~Good depth to heart girth
~Good depth to barrel 

Cons:
~a little steep in the rump
~lacks brisket
~needs to be a little more uphill
~maybe a *little* stronger over the chine
~could be a little more smoothly blended in the neck/shoulders


----------



## margaret

Barnes19 said:


> Oreo:
> 
> Long clean feminine neck
> Uphill
> Good depth of heartgirth
> Good length of body
> Nice strong straight clean front legs
> Strong pasterns
> Rump Ok length and fairly level
> Nice sharp withers
> Nice shoulder
> Good brisket
> Nice teats
> Good fore and rear udder attachments
> 
> Would like to see a little more depth to her rear barrel
> Udder could use a little more capacity ... but is she young?


No she's 5, she doesn't come from heavy milking lines though.


----------



## margaret

I'll get Tearza to post some does.
Someone can do Clematis or Empress.
Empress








Clematis


----------



## Delilah

Superman:








Freckles:








Sage:















Here's some more for you guys to do if you want.


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## Delilah

Empress:

Pros-
She seems to have a nice long dairy neck
Her top line looks pretty level
Long level rump
I'm pretty sure she has strong pasterns
Her necks blends nicely into her withers
Strong in the chine
Nice dairy character
Looks long

Cons-
She needs more brisket it could just be the angle though
Could use a little more depth but she looks young?

It's not very in depth, I haven't done one of these in awhile. Feel free to pick a part my critique!


----------



## Delilah

Clematis:

Pros-
Powerful yet dairy looking
She send to be up hill
Has a nice level top line
Nice rear leg angulation
Long level rump
Nice depth
Looks like she has fore udder
Has some brisket could probably use a little more if you were being extremely picky
Nice dairy character
Her neck looks long and lean
She has rear udder
Good breed characteristics
Looks to have strong pasterns
Strong chine

Cons-
Could use more udder capacity (I'm not sure if her udder is full in the picture or if she was milked out before hand)
Her neck could blend smoother into her withers
She could probably use a tad bit more brisket
Her head looks kind of coarse?

And again feel free to pick through my critique.


----------



## spidy1

Warf...not the best pic...


----------



## margaret

Superman
Pros
~well angulated rear legs
~good angulation
~Good dairy character
~uphill
~long rump
~Level rump
~strong topline
~Level topline
~strong pasterns
~long body
~long neck
~Lean neck
~sharp withers
~Hocks parallel with pinbones
~strong chine

Cons
~lacks brisket
~lacks depth in barrel
~Lacks depth of rear barrel


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Awwww, Margaret! I wanted to do Superman!   I'll still do him though 

Pros:
-Lovely curvature to nose
-Good jaw length
-Good depth of jaw
-Clean throat latch
-Clean, dairy neck
-Neck is still masculine
-Neck length is great
-Neck blends so nicely into withers, shoulders, and brisket
-Good brisket
-Good chest floor
-Clean, sharp withers
-Shoulder is balanced, well set and looks great! 
-Clean front legs
-Front pasterns look to be at a good angle & length
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in middle barrel
-Good length of chine
-Topline is really strong for a Nubian 
-Uphill
-Good long topline
-Smooth topline...yes, I really like his topline! 
-Great body length
-Good long rump
-Rump is really level for a Nubian, I believe
-Nicely angled back legs
-Hindquarter is well balanced
-Smooth, well blended body
-Good dairy character, but still masculine
-Well balanced body



Cons:
-Front knees look a tad weak
-Good use more depth in rear barrel
-Good use a tad more body capacity
-Needs more power in hind end assembly
-Sorry, can't find to many cons  I like him so much


----------



## Barnes19

YAY!!! More goats!!

Sage ... Now she's a lovely young thing!

Pros:
She's gorgeous 
Over all clean lines and well built.
Strong straight topline
Nicely uphill
Rump ok length
Well sprung ribs
Good depth of heart girth
Nice body capacity ... will mature with good depth of barrel
Long, clean feminine neck, blends nicely into shoulder
Strong shoulder, blends nicely into wither and body
Strong pasterns front and back
Nice back legs
Nice wide pelvis
Good broadly set back legs, she has plenty of room for udder.
Back legs also straight.

Cons
Rump is a tad steep
Lacks brisket
I'd like to see a little more strength in the knee.

I don't know how important this is in conformation, but I like to watch for a nice wide spacing between the teat in youg doelings to suggest good udder capacity later. Hers are not very narrow, but could be wider.


----------



## Barnes19

Really hard to see Warf, but I'll run through what I can see of him as best I can. Otherwise with all these well set up goats I can see him not getting done!

He has a strong shoulder, good straight front legs, a long neck, good wither, and looks to be uphill. His rump is nice and long, but a bit steep. His biggest fault I think is his lack of body capacity. He needs a lot more depth in his barrel. He could use a stronger chine. His back legs are set to far back to really say much about them.

Overall he looks too slender and lightly built for a buck.


----------



## Barnes19

Delilah said:


> Empress:
> 
> Pros-
> She seems to have a nice long dairy neck
> Her top line looks pretty level
> Long level rump
> I'm pretty sure she has strong pasterns
> Her necks blends nicely into her withers
> Strong in the chine
> Nice dairy character
> Looks long
> 
> Cons-
> She needs more brisket it could just be the angle though
> Could use a little more depth but she looks young?
> 
> It's not very in depth, I haven't done one of these in awhile. Feel free to pick a part my critique!


I'd like to add a few points to this ... someone correct me if I'm wrong

I think she does lack brisket: also I'm seeing a ewe neck and her back pasterns could be a bit shorter and stronger. Her front ones are excellent.
I hope she comes up with more depth in her rear barrel as she matures ... her middle barrel is good.
She has nice front legs and good spacing between her back legs.


----------



## Barnes19

nigies4ever said:


> He's a handsome guy! Other than the rump, he's a very good improvement on her.
> 
> What does Bernie's rump look like? That's the biggest thing for her, in my opinion.


Yes Rump is something I really have to work on.

Here's Bernie as requested. Overall not as strong as Max, but he's what I've got unrelated to Rita right now. He's a british alpine, from good show lines but his weak topline is a freak throwback I'm afraid!

From the kids, I'm expecting a definite weak chine, and steep rump, but should be a fairish length. (Note to self: next goat purchased must have strong topline and level rump!)
I'm expecting good legs, and hoping she corrects his weak rear pasterns.
I'm hoping for good body capacity, and also hoping his more uphill conformation will dominate, and that the kids will have more of his heart girth than hers.
Definately they will be good milkers, and have lovely udders.

(I'm also hoping the kids don't inherit her predisposition to footrot! Bernie never gets it.)


----------



## Delilah

Barnes19 said:


> I don't know how important this is in conformation, but I like to watch for a nice wide spacing between the teat in youg doelings to suggest good udder capacity later. Hers are not very narrow, but could be wider.


That is very interesting!!!


----------



## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> Yes Rump is something I really have to work on.
> 
> Here's Bernie as requested. Overall not as strong as Max, but he's what I've got unrelated to Rita right now. He's a british alpine, from good show lines but his weak topline is a freak throwback I'm afraid!
> 
> From the kids, I'm expecting a definite weak chine, and steep rump, but should be a fairish length. (Note to self: next goat purchased must have strong topline and level rump!)
> I'm expecting good legs, and hoping she corrects his weak rear pasterns.
> I'm hoping for good body capacity, and also hoping his more uphill conformation will dominate, and that the kids will have more of his heart girth than hers.
> Definately they will be good milkers, and have lovely udders.
> 
> (I'm also hoping the kids don't inherit her predisposition to footrot! Bernie never gets it.)


For the most part, it looks like he's conformationally strong where Rita's not, and has a few flaws where Rita does not. In my mind, that's a really good thing. 

Also, with his and her coloring, I bet you might get some cool colored babies!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

New list folks! Cause It's high time for one  

I'm not counting any meat goats in this list:

Goats that have been done/who did them:

*Jasper *( CPK )
*Flicka *(Stacey, CPK, Margaret )
*Freya* ( Stacey, CPK )
*Athena* ( Stacey, Margaret, Sydney )
*Cylipso *( Margaret)
^^^ All on Page 1: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/

*BrokenArrowRanch's two nigies* ( Stacey, Margaret-brown doe )
*Feona* (Stacey)
^^^ On Page 2: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index2.html

*bbpygmy's Nigerian Doe *(Margaret )
^^^Page 5: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index5.html

*Haley's posted Lamancha buck* (Stacey)
^^^ Page 10: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index10.html

*Margaret's Oreo* ( Stacey )
^^^ Page 12: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index12.html

*Stacey's Rita *( Haley )
^^^ Page 13: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index13.html

*Delilah's Nubians:
-Lamborghini *(Margaret)
*-Florence* (Margaret)
^^^ Page 13: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index13.html

*Margaret's:
-Empress *(Delilah, Stacey)
*-Clematis* (Delilah)

*Delilah's Nubians & Togg:
-Superman *(Margaret, CPK)*
-Sage* (Stacey)

*Spidy1 (AKA Brandi) 's Warf* (Stacey)

^^^ All On Page 15: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index15.html

Goats Not Done At the time of this post:

*Stacey's Maxi *
^^^ Page 14: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index14.html

*Stacey's Bernie *
^^^ Page 16: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index16.html

*Delilah's Nubian Freckles
*^^^Page 15: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index15.html

There ya all are 

-nigies4ever = Haley
-Barnes19 = Stacey
-Spidy1 = Brandi


----------



## Barnes19

Delilah said:


> That is very interesting!!!


It is ... it something I was told by an old goaty person, and I've seen it consistent in my doelings. Actually I was told rather firmly never to buy a doeling that has teats too close together.

Its not as major a difference as implied I think ... but all else being equal I choose replacements on that.

I also have a beautiful doeling right now who has teats a little close.
When in full production, her mother does seem to need a bit more capacity. The little lady may be similar.


----------



## Barnes19

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> New list folks! Cause It's high time for one
> 
> *Delilah's Nubian **-Freckles
> *
> Goats Not Done At the time of this post:
> 
> *Stacey's Maxi *
> ^^^ Page 14: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index14.html
> 
> *Stacey's Bernie *
> ^^^ Page 16: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index16.html
> 
> There ya all are


You forgot one ... *Delilah's Nubian **-Freckles

*I'll do her now, that'll sort it out.

Pros
Good strong straight topline, is uphill.
Good dairy character
Nice long level rump
Long neck
Lots of body capacity
Good depth of barrel
Heart girth OK
Well defined teats, good length and size for milking
Very nice legs both front and back
Front pasterns are good ... can't see the back ones, but the way the leg is I expect them to be good as well.

Cons
Teats look to stick out to the side a bit much ... having them straighter forwards or down would be easier to milk
Udder looks to be small, probably lacking in the rear ... but has she been milked, and what stage of lactation is she in?
Neck could blend into body a little better
Throatlatch is not clean
Face is a little coarse

*I'd like to ask someone with a more experienced eye what they think of her shoulder. Please comment??*


----------



## nigies4ever

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> New list folks! Cause It's high time for one
> 
> I'm not counting any meat goats in this list:
> 
> Goats that have been done/who did them:
> 
> *Jasper *( CPK )
> *Flicka *(Stacey, CPK, Margaret )
> *Freya* ( Stacey, CPK )
> *Athena* ( Stacey, Margaret, Sydney )
> *Cylipso *( Margaret)
> ^^^ All on Page 1: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/
> 
> *BrokenArrowRanch's two nigies* ( Stacey, Margaret-brown doe )
> *Feona* (Stacey)
> ^^^ On Page 2: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index2.html
> 
> *bbpygmy's Nigerian Doe *(Margaret )
> ^^^Page 5: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index5.html
> 
> *Nigies4ever's posted Lamancha buck* (Stacey)
> ^^^ Page 10: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index10.html
> 
> *Margaret's Oreo* ( Stacey )
> ^^^ Page 12: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index12.html
> 
> *Stacey's Rita *(nigies4ever )
> ^^^ Page 13: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index13.html
> 
> *Deliliah's Nubians:
> -Lamborghini *(Margaret)
> *-Florence* (Margaret)
> ^^^ Page 13: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index13.html
> 
> *Margaret's:
> -Empress *(Delilah, Stacey)
> *-Clematis* (Delilah)
> 
> *Delilah's Nubians & Togg:
> -Superman *(Margaret, CPK)
> *-Freckles
> -Sage* (Stacey)
> 
> *Spidy1 (AKA Brandi) 's Warf* (Stacey)
> 
> ^^^ All On Page 15: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index15.html
> 
> Goats Not Done At the time of this post:
> 
> *Stacey's Maxi *
> ^^^ Page 14: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index14.html
> 
> *Stacey's Bernie *
> ^^^ Page 16: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index16.html
> 
> There ya all are


Can I be Haley on the list instead, please? Thanks.


----------



## Barnes19

Haley = nigies4ever .... cool add that to the list


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> You forgot one ... *Delilah's Nubian **-Freckles*. I'll do her now, that'll sort it out.


Lol  I'll move her 



nigies4ever said:


> Can I be Haley on the list instead, please? Thanks. :smile:


Sure!  Fixed that


----------



## spidy1

I'll get better pics of Warf today if the weather holds up, right now he's skin and bones the pore guy rutted SOOOOO hard, he was fat before rut, this was his first rut ( he's only a yearling) it is going to be scary what his next ruts will be.


----------



## Delilah

Here's two more for you guys to do if you'd like. Sorry about the camera angles...it makes it basically impossible to see the brisket  .

Dreamer:








Strawberry ( she is a full blood Nubian, she was 2 pounds when she was born and still hasn't caught up with everyone else yet)








**Sorry about the fresh spread manure in the back ground**


----------



## spidy1

Ok, better (but not best) pics of Warf...


----------



## margaret

Freckles
cons
she needs to be more up hill
rear legs are slightly posty
needs more udder capacity
needs a higher rear udder
Pros
long neck
lean neck
ok brisket
lovely topline
strong topline
level topline
good length of body
good angularity
good dairy character
good fore udder attachment
sharp withers
strong pasterns
long rump
Level rump

short because I am on the phone but you get the idea.


----------



## nigies4ever

Thoughts on my doe (Athena) dam's udder? She hasn't freshened yet, so that's why I ask.


----------



## LuvMyNigies

Can I try critiquing? I don't know very much yet, but I'm learning.


----------



## nigies4ever

LuvMyNigies said:


> Can I try critiquing? I don't know very much yet, but I'm learning.


Yes! That's what this thread is for  Give whoever you want a go!


----------



## kramsay

Can you critique my new doe. She is a FF one year old (dob Feb 14 2014). This was mine and her first time trying to get conformation pictures and it didn't go well lol


----------



## nigies4ever

kramsay said:


> Can you critique my new doe. She is a FF one year old (dob Feb 14 2014). This was mine and her first time trying to get conformation pictures and it didn't go well lol


That's alright, conformation pics are difficult to get, lol. I'll go ahead and give her a go, but I think I'll skip her udder just because it's a bit hairy to see right now.

Pros:
Feminine face
long, lovely neck
pretty good brisket
nice, straight front legs that look pretty even with her withers
uphill stance
good angulation in the back legs
level top line

Cons:
Steep, short rump
could be stronger on her pasterns, although it's hard to tell in the snow/hay
toes out a bit in the back


----------



## Barnes19

Delilah's dreamer:

Nice girl

Pros
Shows good breed definition
Good dairy character
Nice feminine face
Long, lean neck
Neck blends nicely into body
Nice sharp withers
Strong shoulder
Shoulder blend well into withers and body
Front legs are strong and straight
Topline is pretty good ... slight dip in chine but not much to worry about
Rump is a decent length
Middle barrel has wonderful depth and capacity
Rear barrel depth OK

Cons
Lacks heart girth
Rump is a little steep
Back legs are looking a bit hocky.


----------



## Barnes19

Haley's Athena's Dam's Udder (wow thats a mouthful lol)

Nice wide attachment
Good teat definition
Held nice and tight and high
Teats are small, not ideal for milking
One side is a bit larger than the other ... normal enough, most goats are a little lopsided.
Could use more capacity and size

How many lactations has she had? If by any chance she was a FF with Athena, then that udder capacity and teat size will improve next year, probably rather nicely.

What was Athena's sire's family udder like?


----------



## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> Haley's Athena's Dam's Udder (wow thats a mouthful lol)
> 
> Nice wide attachment
> Good teat definition
> Held nice and tight and high
> Teats are small, not ideal for milking
> One side is a bit larger than the other ... normal enough, most goats are a little lopsided.
> Could use more capacity and size
> 
> How many lactations has she had? If by any chance she was a FF with Athena, then that udder capacity and teat size will improve next year, probably rather nicely.
> 
> What was Athena's sire's family udder like?


I think it may be the angle of the pic that makes her look lopsided because she is normally perfectly proportioned. And yep, she was a FF when this pic was taken. I don't know what her sire's dam's udder looked like, but here are some pics of great great granddams' udders.


----------



## Barnes19

Wow there's some really nice udders!
All well attached, some awesomely attached, some weak medians and some almost forked ... but the average is perfect.

Athena is going to be awesome. So will the kids, to judge from the buck's dam.

The one thing that might be held in common is teats being slightly on the small side ... but there's some good length there too, and all are well positioned and defined.


----------



## nigies4ever

Barnes19 said:


> Wow there's some really nice udders!
> All well attached, some awesomely attached, some weak medians and some almost forked ... but the average is perfect.
> 
> Athena is going to be awesome. So will the kids, to judge from the buck's dam.
> 
> The one thing that might be held in common is teats being slightly on the small side ... but there's some good length there too, and all are well positioned and defined.


Thanks! Now I'm super excited for her to freshen 

Here are some pics of the buck's family udders..I don't like them nearly as much as I like Athena's, but his dam's seems to be very good.


----------



## margaret

nigies4ever said:


> That's alright, conformation pics are difficult to get, lol. I'll go ahead and give her a go, but I think I'll skip her udder just because it's a bit hairy to see right now.
> 
> Pros:
> Feminine face
> long, lovely neck
> pretty good brisket
> nice, straight front legs that look pretty even with her withers
> uphill stance
> good angulation in the back legs
> level top line
> 
> Cons:
> Steep, short rump
> could be stronger on her pasterns, although it's hard to tell in the snow/hay
> toes out a bit in the back


Good job:thumbup:


----------



## margaret

kramsay said:


> Can you critique my new doe. She is a FF one year old (dob Feb 14 2014). This was mine and her first time trying to get conformation pictures and it didn't go well lol


Haley did her, if you want a long critique, I can do one but Haley did a very good job


----------



## nigies4ever

margaret said:


> Haley did her, if you want a long critique, I can do one but Haley did a very good job


You should do her too  Mine wasn't very in depth.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

kramsay said:


> Can you critique my new doe. She is a FF one year old (dob Feb 14 2014). This was mine and her first time trying to get conformation pictures and it didn't go well lol


Here's my critique on her: (note: I first posted it in "Alpine Conformation" )

Pros:
-Nice length of jaw
-Good depth of jaw
-Clean, pretty face
-Fairly clean throat latch
-Good neck length
-Clean, feminine neck
-Good brisket
-Neck blends nicely into shoulder and brisket
-Clean, sharp withers
-Very nice shoulder...well set, balanced, tight and looks good :smile:
-Good chest floor
-Front legs set squarely under shoulders
-Good, clean, strong front legs
-Good depth in heart girth (actually, really good for her age :smile
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-Slightly uphill
-Good length of barrel
-I REALLY like her whole front end assembly, and barrel :smile:
-Good rump length
-Nicely angled back legs
-Good body capacity
-Good width between hocks
-Nice even width in rump
-Thurls look level
-Nice udder
-Nice long, fairly level topline

Cons:
-Looks copper deficient
-Steep rump
-Weak pasterns
-Long pasterns
-Needs a tad more body length
-Throat latch could be cleaner

Overall, a very nice girl! Especially at her age :smile:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Haley, I really like that first, upper left udder you first posted!  Sure is pretty  

And all you folks, what 2 goats would you like me to do?  The two posted first are the ones I'll do!


----------



## nigies4ever

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Haley, I really like that first, upper left udder you first posted!  Sure is pretty
> 
> And all you folks, what 2 goats would you like me to do?  The two posted first are the ones I'll do!


Thanks! I think that particular doe is part of the Kastdemur herd


----------



## kramsay

margaret said:


> Haley did her, if you want a long critique, I can do one but Haley did a very good job


Yes please do another one, I am trying to learning with her 

Thanks for doing her!


----------



## margaret

Cpk, you should do Rita and Warf.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Warf:

-Pros:
-Looks to have good neck length
-Neck is dairy, but not too feminine
-Nice width in muzzle
-I think (if in your mind you move his front legs back) he's got a good brisket
-Nice rounded, well set shoulder
-Clean sharp withers
-Good chest floor
-Clean, clean front legs
-Lovely upright fore pasterns
-Really good body length
-Good topline
-Lovely long rump
-Well put together hindquarter, well balanced and well set
-Back legs are well built
-Back pasterns are good
-Good width in shoulders
-Fairly good width in chest for a dairy buck
-Good width in rump
-Good width between hocks
-Toes all point forward


Cons:
-Lacks some serious body depth
-Drops too much behind withers
-Could use a tad more brisket
-Steep-ish rump
-Back legs are a tad posty ?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Rita:

Pros:
-Strong jaw
-Strong, wide muzzle
-Clean withers
-Fairly good brisket
-Good length in chine
-Good depth in rear barrel
-Good body capacity in relation to her size
-Good length of loin
-Good body length
-Fairly good rump length
-Nicely angled back legs


Cons:
-Ewe neck
-Short neck
-Unbalanced, poorly set shoulder
-Lacks depth in heart girth
-Front legs are too slender, needs a bit more bone 
-Steep rump
-Lacks depth in middle barrel
-Could use more body capacity


She's a hard goat to do


----------



## alyssamilli87

Breeding doe prospect pictured at 3 and 6 weeks. Registerable at 75%. Going to go pick her up Saturday...Is she worth the $150 or should I keep looking?


----------



## margaret

I would post this on the meat forum-you'll get more responses
http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-meat-goats-1-a-175649/


----------



## margaret

Remind me someone, which goats still need to be done?


----------



## Barnes19

Delilah's Strawberry
Stacey's Maxi

I'm not sure but I think thats all.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Ok, I feel like doing something now, I will critique 1 goat per week :lol: so if you all can decide on one for me to do, let me know.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> Remind me someone, which goats still need to be done?


I'll make a new list real soon  
In the mean time, here's a picture of a PB Kiko doe's udder. 12 hour fill  First freshening, 2 or so month since kidding  Thoughts?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Need doing yet: ( I have not seen any critiques on any of them )

*Stacey's Maxi *
^^^ Page 14: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index14.html

*Stacey's Bernie *
^^^ Page 16: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index16.html

*Delilah's Strawberry*
*Haley's Athena's Dam's Udder* (that's a mouthful! )
^^^Page 17: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index17.html

*CPK's PB Kiko doe's udder*
^^^Page 20


----------



## spidy1

How about this baby udder! She's 3 months old in this pic... (Hint......she's precocious)


----------



## margaret

Yay Lacie!!:woohoo: :lol:
You can do the ones we fail
Oh wait, wouldn't that be all of them?


----------



## Delilah

Would it be alright if I tried to critique CPK's udder picture?


----------



## spidy1

Yes, go for it!!!


----------



## Delilah

Alright well here it goes:

Pros-
Has okay attachment
Good Medial (I think)
Clean teated
The fore udder is attached ( I would like to see it a little longer)
It's a cute little udder 

Cons-
Teats point out to the side
I would like the teats longer and closer together
Needs a bit more capacity
A little more fore udder


----------



## Delilah

Sorry it's not very in depth but I started running out of ideas...feel free to point out anything that I missed!!


----------



## margaret

Do any udders you like, I'm awful at them


----------



## Delilah

margaret said:


> Do any udders you like, I'm awful at them


I'm pretty bad at coming up with reasons. It's black and white for me, I either like it or I don't. l might do another one at some point but depends on my motivation level...


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Delilah said:


> Alright well here it goes:
> 
> Pros-
> Has okay attachment
> Good Medial (I think)
> Clean teated
> The fore udder is attached ( I would like to see it a little longer)
> It's a cute little udder
> 
> Cons-
> Teats point out to the side
> I would like the teats longer and closer together
> Needs a bit more capacity
> A little more fore udder


Thanks, Delilah!  I am hoping this year she'll have more capacity  She is starting a tiny udder already, (she's due end of April) and her teats look longer then last year, so that's good


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> Do any udders you like, I'm awful at them


Same here!  How 'bout, Margaret, I'll do my doe's udder, then you do it 

And does anyone know who's good at critiquing udders?


----------



## margaret

Lacie? :lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

My PB Kiko's udder (Caelie) Her dam had a huge, well attached udder with lots of capacity 

Pros:
-Really like how high it is held
-Evenly divided
-Well attached at back
-Nice width front-to-back
-Promising, I bet it will be a LOT better this year 
-uhhhh

Cons:
-Teats are SMALL (they were very hard to milk)
-Udder lacks capacity
-Teats out to the side
-Could be better attached in fore


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Lol, yeah  Maybe she could give us a Udder Critiquing Lesson!


----------



## margaret

Maybe she should give is a lesson on critiquing in general


----------



## margaret

Strawberry
Cons
Hocky
Toes out in front
Needs stronger topline
Needs more level topline
Steep rump
Short rump
Lacks brisket

Pros
Long neck
Lean neck
Strong pasterns
Well angulated rear legs
Fair depth of heart girth
Fair depth of barrel
Sharp withers
Ouch! I hope Lacie doesn't see that, :lol:
It was really lame


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Oh... you guys.... that was.... really bad :lol: I thought you had learned something from me! :slapfloor: I don't think it's my fault, because I could never be a bad teacher, so it must be you  :lol: 

CPK (I'm suffering from memory loss today, forgot your name...) If you could get a rear udder shot with her tail up, and a side view that would help a lot. 

I feel like you guys are grasping at straws sometimes, and some of the terms and phrases are making me cringe :lol:


----------



## nigies4ever

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Oh... you guys.... that was.... really bad :lol: I thought you had learned something from me! :slapfloor: I don't think it's my fault, because I could never be a bad teacher, so it must be you  :lol:


And a modest one, too :ROFL:


----------



## Delilah

margaret said:


> Strawberry
> 
> Cons
> 
> Hocky
> 
> Toes out in front
> 
> Needs stronger topline
> 
> Needs more level topline
> 
> Steep rump
> 
> Short rump
> 
> Lacks brisket
> 
> Pros
> 
> Long neck
> 
> Lean neck
> 
> Strong pasterns
> 
> Well angulated rear legs
> 
> Fair depth of heart girth
> 
> Fair depth of barrel
> 
> Sharp withers
> 
> Ouch! I hope Lacie doesn't see that, :lol:
> 
> It was really lame


What does hocky mean?


----------



## margaret

Oh yes, _such_ a humble teacher:slapfloor:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Yeah, see, I try so hard, and you guys try so little :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

But if I must teach you....again.... I will, but know this, I don't like repeating myself! :lol: And I'll use Babettes mom as my example :lol:

Barbaro







Barbaro, 3rd from left


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Barbaro
*Cons:*
Rear legs are a bit posty
Rump is a touch short
Rump could be a tad more level
Could be a bit longer bodied
Slight toe out in the rear
Could use a little more extension of the brisket
Thurls could be a bit higher to fix the posty legs

*Pros:*
Great depth of body overall
Excellent body capacity
Nice uphill stature
Strong topline
Very strong in the chine
Very open, well sprung ribbing
Good dairy wedge
Nice with in the hips and pins
Nice width from thurl to thurl
Very wide between the hocks
Nice and high escutcheon
Nice wide rump
Strong pasturns
Short pasturns
Good length to the neck
Lean neck that blends nicely into the withers
Neck ties into the shoulder assembly nicely
Neck blends well into the brisket
Chest floor blends well into the heart girth
Deep heart girth
Nice deep rear barrel
Nice prominent withers
Smooth shoulder assembly
Tight elbows
Nice straight forelegs
Good feet
Flat bone
Nice power in the front end
Very dairy appearance
Nice femininity
Long bone pattern is decent, could be better though
Very nice general appearance
Clean juncture of the jaw and throat
Nice head

*Udder Cons:*
Could use a little more fore udder extension
Teats could be a little bigger and more plumb

*Udder Pros:*
Great udder depth
Fore blends nicely
Very nice capacious udder
Smooth looking, appearing to have nice texture
Very wide arch
Arch is nicely rounded
Attached very high up in the escutcheon
Very strong rear attachments
Strong lateral attachments
Very close to even udder floor
Teats are well defined
Almost ideal teat placement
Udder halves are well defined
Very strong medial suspensory ligament
Even medial


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> CPK (I'm suffering from memory loss today, forgot your name...) If you could get a rear udder shot with her tail up, and a side view that would help a lot.
> 
> I feel like you guys are grasping at straws sometimes, and some of the terms and phrases are making me cringe :lol:


Ok, I'll get some when she freshens...in 2 months:wahoo:Can't wait to see her kids, and see how her udder is going to turn out 

Oh, dear! I sure hope we learn something then!  Mind explaining what straws we're grasping at and what terms/phrases we're getting wrong? Pretty please?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Barbaro
> *Cons:*
> Rear legs are a bit posty
> Rump is a touch short
> Rump could be a tad more level
> Could be a bit longer bodied
> Slight toe out in the rear
> Could use a little more extension of the brisket
> Thurls could be a bit higher to fix the posty legs
> 
> *Pros:*
> Great depth of body overall
> Excellent body capacity
> Nice uphill stature
> Strong topline
> Very strong in the chine
> Very open, well sprung ribbing
> Good dairy wedge
> Nice with in the hips and pins
> Nice width from thurl to thurl
> Very wide between the hocks
> Nice and high escutcheon
> Nice wide rump
> Strong pasturns
> Short pasturns
> Good length to the neck
> Lean neck that blends nicely into the withers
> Neck ties into the shoulder assembly nicely
> Neck blends well into the brisket
> Chest floor blends well into the heart girth
> Deep heart girth
> Nice deep rear barrel
> Nice prominent withers
> Smooth shoulder assembly
> Tight elbows
> Nice straight forelegs
> Good feet
> Flat bone
> Nice power in the front end
> Very dairy appearance
> Nice femininity
> Long bone pattern is decent, could be better though
> Very nice general appearance
> Clean juncture of the jaw and throat
> Nice head
> 
> *Udder Cons:*
> Could use a little more fore udder extension
> Teats could be a little bigger and more plumb
> 
> *Udder Pros:*
> Great udder depth
> Fore blends nicely
> Very nice capacious udder
> Smooth looking, appearing to have nice texture
> Very wide arch
> Arch is nicely rounded
> Attached very high up in the escutcheon
> Very strong rear attachments
> Strong lateral attachments
> Very close to even udder floor
> Teats are well defined
> Almost ideal teat placement
> Udder halves are well defined
> Very strong medial suspensory ligament
> Even medial


:faint:Wow! That's good! :shock: I'll have to read through it and try pick everything out later


----------



## margaret

Lacie, don't beat up on us poor idiots:lol: See the title says "*Learning* to critique for *Dummies*"
You were a judge, we've been doing this for like, a couple _months_.
Plus, _you _have been absent When you are absent you are about as much help as a brick wall
If we're doing stuff wrong, we need someone to tell us what we're doing wrong and pick through our critiques or we won't get better.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Don't bring logic into this! :slapfloor: 
I'll have to flip through the pages, but I don't think you're getting things wrong persay, I'll have to ask you what you guys meant on a few things though. Not sure by some of the ways things are worded.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Don't bring logic into this! :slapfloor:


LOOK! Margaret! We got LOGIC on our side! :lol: :wahoo: (Note: this was said behind teacher's back  :lol: )


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## Delilah

Is it alright if Lacie educates me also on the mystical ways of critiquing goats?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

You'll have to ask her  As you can see, we are trying to get her to help us again in this thread some


----------



## Delilah

I already know the basics  for the most part it's just the correct terminology that evades me.


----------



## margaret

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> LOOK! Margaret! We got LOGIC on our side! :lol: :wahoo: (Note: this was said behind teacher's back  :lol: )


Yay for us!:wahoo: :lol:


----------



## margaret

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> LOOK! Margaret! We got LOGIC on our side! :lol: :wahoo: (Note: this was said behind teacher's back  :lol: )


Yeah, hear that Lacie, you did not see this:lol:


----------



## margaret

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Don't bring logic into this! :slapfloor:
> I'll have to flip through the pages, but I don't think you're getting things wrong persay, I'll have to ask you what you guys meant on a few things though. Not sure by some of the ways things are worded.


But Lacie, you love logic!:lol:
Well, we didn't have you around to teach us _proper_ terminology:lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Delilah said:


> I already know the basics  for the most part it's just the correct terminology that evades me.


I understand that! Terminology,terms and the little details of what to look for...that goes over my head sometimes!


----------



## Delilah

I know what you mean!! So as long as it's alright with Lacie I'll hopefully get to learn them


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

If you haven't already seen these, study them, then get back to me with your questions.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> My PB Kiko's udder (Caelie) Her dam had a huge, well attached udder with lots of capacity
> 
> Pros:
> -Really like how high it is held
> -Evenly divided
> -Well attached at back
> -Nice width front-to-back ---Explain yourself! :lol:
> -Promising, I bet it will be a LOT better this year
> -uhhhh
> 
> Cons:
> -Teats are SMALL (they were very hard to milk)
> -Udder lacks capacity
> -Teats out to the side
> -Could be better attached in fore





margaret said:


> Strawberry
> Cons
> Hocky -- And you, explain yourself! Do you mean sickle, toes out, etc?
> Toes out in front
> Needs stronger topline
> Needs more level topline
> Steep rump
> Short rump
> Lacks brisket
> 
> Pros
> Long neck
> Lean neck
> Strong pasterns
> Well angulated rear legs
> Fair depth of heart girth
> Fair depth of barrel
> Sharp withers
> Ouch! I hope Lacie doesn't see that, :lol:
> It was really lame





Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Rita:
> 
> Pros:
> -Strong jaw
> -Strong, wide muzzle
> -Clean withers
> -Fairly good brisket
> -Good length in chine
> -Good depth in rear barrel
> -Good body capacity in relation to her size
> -Good length of loin
> -Good body length
> -Fairly good rump length
> -Nicely angled back legs
> 
> Cons:
> -Ewe neck
> -Short neck
> -Unbalanced, poorly set shoulder --Do explain what you mean by "Unbalanced"
> -Lacks depth in heart girth
> -Front legs are too slender, needs a bit more bone
> -Steep rump
> -Lacks depth in middle barrel
> -Could use more body capacity


^^^


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> (from my critique on Caelie's udder)-Nice width front-to-back ---Explain yourself!


I meant that the length from the front of her udder to the back of it was nice...and wasn't sure what was the actual term for that 



Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> (from my critique on Rita) -Unbalanced, poorly set shoulder --Do explain what you mean by "Unbalanced"


Her shoulder isn't in proportion with the rest of her body, it juts out too far forward, the whole shoulder blade is too far forward, or her leg is placed too far back in the shoulder...

Is that better, Lacie?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

And on those charts, Lacie, what does the "5, 25, 45" mean? Is the "25" the preferred conformation of each one?

And the diagrams are very helpful


----------



## margaret

Her hocks turn in, that's what I've always heard it called.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> I meant that the length from the front of her udder to the back of it was nice...and wasn't sure what was the actual term for that
> 
> Her shoulder isn't in proportion with the rest of her body, it juts out too far forward, the whole shoulder blade is too far forward, or her leg is placed too far back in the shoulder...
> 
> Is that better, Lacie?


Ok, there isn't really a term for that, just well balanced from fore to rear.

And I didn't look at the goat, but if the front legs, shoulders etc are too far forward, that is actually a thing they mark you down on. Shoulder assembly too far forward, called exactly what it looks like.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

The 5-25-45 scale is used for LA. 25 is the general preferred structure. But for strength and rump width I like them to be closer to 45.

Hocks turning in would be cow hocked. The hocks are closer together than the feet. Same thing as toeing out.
Hocks turning out would be like pigeon toed. The hocks are far apart, feet close together. When they walk their toes go inward, moving more under the animals body.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> The 5-25-45 scale is used for LA. 25 is the general preferred structure. But for strength and rump width I like them to be closer to 45.


Ok, I see 

And Lacie, would you mind going over this critique I did of my PB Kiko doe? http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f2...meat-goats-1-a-175649/index9.html#post1858349 She's fairly dairy looking, but not overly  And just say if I got anything wrong, missed any cons and how I did on her udder? 
(the picture posted in this thread is better, since her tail is up : http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-meat-goats-1-a-175649/index8.html )

I must say, that critique on Caelie is the longest I've done it a long time! :lol:

Thanks!


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

^^^ So... there are some things to go over.... :lol:


> Pros:
> -Strong jaw
> -Good jaw length
> -Head is feminine
> -Matched jaws (other way to word it is correct bite, or correct pallets)
> -Neck is in proportion with her body (generally not how it's worded, we mainly use "long neck", "short neck", "thick neck" "lean/slender neck")
> -Neck blends smoothly into chest/brisket
> -Good width in fore chest (fore chest isn't a thing, they only have one chest  )
> -Well proportioned shoulders (goats generally don't have too large of shoulder or too small of ones)
> -Shoulders blend smoothly into withers (It would just be smooth shoulder assembly, point of shoulder is a tad sharp in the first pics)
> -Front legs perpendicular to chest ?
> -Front feet point straight ahead
> -Strong pasterns at an approximately 45 degree angle
> -Good, rectangle type body (with dairy and meat goats a "rectangular" body type is undesirable (I call it kind of a tubular build), you want them deep in the rear barrel, that gives them more capacity for food and kids. More capacity means more productive, you always want them to get deeper into the rear barrel)
> -Topline is reasonably straight, but could be better
> -Rib cage is well sprung in proportion to depth of body (disagree, she is more slab sided/lacks spring of rib and openness of ribbing, she doesn't "barrel out". You want a goat that has a very open ribcage)
> -Rump is proportion with rest of body ?
> -Rump flows nicely with topline down to the hock, with a slight angle from pin bones to hock (there shouldn't be an angle from the pins to the hock, if you draw a straight line from the pins to hock, they should line up.)
> From the hips to pins, side-view, is the rump angle, ideally in all breeds, you want it reasonably level. If it slopes toward the ground, then it is getting less level and if it slopes enough, it is called a steep rump.
> -Hocks have a slight angle ending up at 45 degree angle rear pasterns
> -Udder is well rounded
> -Good suspension (this would be called attachment, it could be higher and tighter in the rear/escutcheon)
> -Does not hang below the hock (This is called udder depth. Look at the chart I posted, they have too much udder depth if it extends below the hocks, and it's very shallow depth it it looks almost non existent, which brings us to capacity as well)
> -Both sides are functional
> -Teats are without deformities
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> -Clean throat latch
> -Good brisket (lacks brisket, need I bring up the battle of the brisket again :ROFL: )
> -Sharp withers
> -Neck blends smoothly into withers
> -Neck blends smoothly into shoulder blade and brisket
> -Shoulder is well set, smooth and well proportioned (bringing back the point of her having a sharp point of shoulder)
> -Tight elbows
> -Withers are higher then hips
> -Good chest floor (in terms of chest floors, it's either wide or narrow, there isn't really a "good chest floor" outside those two things)
> -Good depth in heart girth
> -Good length in chine (not exactly a thing, just strong or weak in the chine, she is, from pic 1, fairly strong in the chine)
> -Good length in loin (with dairy goats loin isn't used, from the chine on is the topline, which also brings is to body length and long bone pattern, as they go hand in hand)
> -Good depth in barrel (from the first pics, I would put her at decent to fair depth)
> -Excellent body capacity (doesn't look like it, but man, does she ever hide kids and food well! ) (You are contradicting yourself, if you can't see the body capacity, it is not there. When they have good depth,and an open spring of rib and barrel, they have good body capacity. Slab sided goats, and goats that lack depth do not exhibit very good capacity)
> -Good length from hips to pins (known as short or long rump, she has a fairly good length to her rump)
> -Nicely muscled thigh (I personally say she lacks muscling)
> -Nice rump angle ( I actually like that angle) (discussed above somewhere)
> -Clean sharp legs (depending on if she is supposed to be more dairy or more meat, that's either good or bad)
> -Legs are well set and sturdy
> -Good cannon bone length (correlates to long bone pattern, which she does lack)
> -Even width in rump
> -Thurls look pretty even (thurls are set a little low, and a little too far back, giving her a steeper rump, and a bit too much angle in the rear legs)
> -Good width in shoulders (she's a bit narrow to me)
> 
> -Good teat diameter
> -Good rear udder height (her udder is actually set a bit low for how high it could have been in the escutcheon)
> -Nice rear udder arch
> -Good medial (could be a bit stronger, defining the udder halves a bit more)
> -Udder well attached at back (could have stronger rear and lateral attachments)
> -Even udder floor
> -Evenly divided halves
> 
> Cons:
> -Length from withers to elbow isn't the same as elbow to ground ?
> -Depth of body isn't 60% of total height ?
> -Last year, teats were too small (usually isn't a huge deal for FF's)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> -Cow hocked
> -Uneven topline (hips too high)
> -Pasterns are a tad too angled (she has long, weaker pasturns. Down in the pasturns is a way to put weak pasturns)
> -Would like more depth in rear barrel, but I think that will come with age (possibly, how old is she?)
> 
> -Teat placed a little too far out
> -Lacks capacity (did you correct yourself?)


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I'm billing you all for my hours by the way, this is time I could have spent not at work :lol: I charge $0.10 per question :lol:


----------



## margaret

Boy, are we in debt! :slapfloor:


----------



## margaret

margaret said:


> Lamborghini
> 
> Pros
> ~Long neck
> ~lean neck, although it looks to get fatter as it goes up
> ~Long body
> ~Long rump
> ~Level rump
> ~Level topline
> ~Strong topline
> ~Strong chine
> ~Good angulation
> ~Good dairy character
> ~Well angulated rear legs
> ~strong pasterns
> ~Smoothly blended in the neck/withers
> ~sharp withers
> ~Hocks are parallel with pinbones
> 
> Cons
> ~Lacks brisket
> ~lacks depth in heart girth
> ~lacks depth in barrel
> ~He needs to be more uphill
> 
> Very nice buckling!


Now Lacie, can you pick through this one?? Pretty please?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Do you have $0.10? :slapfloor:


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## margaret

Yes I certainly do and _you_ can't have it :slapfloor:


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I'm billing you all for my hours by the way, this is time I could have spent not at work :lol: I charge $0.10 per question :lol:


:faint:Oh dearie me! :shock: I'm fleeing the forum! :lol:

Thanks for going over that, Lacie  I see I need to clear up my terms a bit and still got a lot of learning to do 
Caelie is almost a year and a half old in the summer pictures. She does lack muscling in those pictures, cause she just finished weaning her kid  On the last "lacks capacity" on my list, I meant her udder...

What I did notice though, is that the Kiko standard is a lot different then any dairy one. Such as with length of loin, rectangle body, (though they want it deep too) pastern angle, and rump angle 
I was wondering what the Kiko doe standard meant by "fore chest" cause I was quite sure goats only have one chest :lol:

Now for my money-costing questions  
-How do you tell if a goat has very open ribcage?
-How does Caelie lack brisket?
-Is a sharp point of shoulder a good thing? Is it the same or different then sharp withers?
-You mentioned "...in terms of chest floors, it's either wide or narrow, there isn't really a "good chest floor" outside those two things" I thought chest floor what if the line from the brisket to heart girth was high or low...if that makes any sense 
-What is long bone pattern?
-What is a low thurl?

That's...gulp....going to cost me $0.70  :lol:


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## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> Boy, are we in debt! :slapfloor:


We had better limit our questions...my last post cost me $0.70!!! :ROFL: I'm gonna go bankrupt that way :lol: We'd better be extra nice to Lacie, Margaret  :slapfloor:


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Now for my money-costing questions
> -How do you tell if a goat has very open ribcage? I will get some pictures together, but when you're looking at a goat head on, after the shoulders end, you want to see their rib cage getting wider. Think like a triangle, the front end should be the smaller end, and they get widest at the end of the rib cage
> -How does Caelie lack brisket? Will get a picture for that too, there is a lot of misunderstanding about briskets and I dare not say anything about it on a meat goat thread :lol: They are anti-brisket for a clean front end in their show goats, but it serves a vital purpose.
> -Is a sharp point of shoulder a good thing? Is it the same or different than sharp withers? You want the point of shoulder to be a bit smoother, it especially looks sharper in out of condition does
> -You mentioned "...in terms of chest floors, it's either wide or narrow, there isn't really a "good chest floor" outside those two things" I thought chest floor what if the line from the brisket to heart girth was high or low...if that makes any sense  The chest floor is from the end of the brisket to where the heart girth begins. It is ok to see a goat with a flat chest floor that drops into a deep girth and deeper barrel, what I DON'T want to see is a chest floor that tilts a bit toward the spine, then drops off into the girth, etc, because then you have that raised spot that looks like an upside down U shape in that spot between the end of the chest floor and the beginning of the girth
> -What is long bone pattern? Goats with long bone pattern have long dorsal processes, they are long bodies and tall, their fore leg is longer than the length of their cannon bones, and they have a "flow" to their vertebrae from the neck to the pins.
> -What is a low thurl? Will get you guys some reading on thurls and their relation to rumps and leg sets.
> 
> That's...gulp....going to cost me $0.70  :lol:


Answered in red.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Ok, so see how much wider Moon gets after her shoulders end? That is open ribbing, good spring of rib.















And this would be too much brisket, but it's just to show you there is such a thing as a brisket :lol: You want about half that. Now, like I just mentioned, they serve a purpose. The more brisket extension the better chances of longevity, they give the goat more room for her heart and lungs.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

And I can't find the thurl thing again but here is some more info to shed some light them
When I mean high and low, this is what I mean ~ The thurl is a joint that the rear leg attaches to. It is located between the hips and the pins. High would be closer to the hips, low would be closer to the pins

Rump Angle- Steep: thurls set too high, can give either a borderline to sickle rear leg set, or posty leg set, usually more toward sickle~ Level: thurls set low enough, correct rear leg angle. (with your doe I meant to say high)

Rump Width - Narrow: thurls and hind legs close together - Wide: thurls set far apart

Fore Udder Attachment- Steep rump shortens extension of fore udder

Rear Udder Height - Steep rump lowers rear udder and tilts teats forward


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Ohhh, ok! My Boer doe, Ginger, looks like Moon a lot, and I thought it was because she gorges herself on food all the time and because she has narrow shoulders (which she does ) it made it look "worse"  I guess I was wrong about that :lol: And Caelie almost never does...

On your brisket doe, I'll try explain what I thought was chest floor  But doesn't she lack a little bit depth from her withers to between her front legs? I mean, I thought that the bone between the front legs is better if it is lower...that's what I thought 'chest floor' meant...how low or high that area was 

Anyway, I don't know if that makes sense....


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Oh, no, look at the 2nd pic of Moon again, from the inside of each leg to the other is the width of the chest floor. As far as how long the chest floor is, draw a line straight down from the point of shoulder (don't use the brisket doe for this example :lol: ), that's where it starts, then straight down the armpit is where the chest floor ends and turns into the heart girth. The length from the withers to the chest floor isn't judged, the deeper it is the taller the goat would have to be to look proportionate. 

That bone you feel is the sternum. It's better if it doesn't tilt toward the spine, but it's perfectly fine if it is flat/level, or tilts downward.


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## CritterCarnival

Absolutely wonderful Lacie, thank you! 

Are there any books or websites you would recommend as a starting point to learn more about fitting and showing a dairy goat? Like how to judge each of the items on a scorecard? Or an explanation about the "5, 25, 45" chart and how to know which ones are preferred closer to which example? :book:


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

On the scorecard, it tells you what is desired, so once you understand the basics of what the flaws are, and finding the flaws, it'll help a lot when you go to judge their conformation like you were looking for a high end doe goat. 
With fitting a dairy goat, it's pretty simple compared to the boers. You clip the entire body with a #9 or #10 blade two weeks before the show (you don't have to clip if it's a fuzzy goat show), face and ears are sometimes clipped with a #15-#30. I personally clip everything with a #9, then clip the udder with a #40, and then I use a razor to go over the udder and get the shave even closer. 
Trim the hooves about a week and a half before the show. At the show before you go into the ring, wipe their face with a baby wipe, clean the underside of the tail, and the inner thighs as well. And wipe the udder down with a wipe or rag too, incase there is any pee dribbles on it. Brush them and use a show sheen spray an hour in advance if you would like (it usually makes them a bit sticky for a bit), to condition their skin and coat and make it shine. 
Udders should have a 12 or so hour fill. You don't want them rock hard and strutted, but full. 
Here is a good link on fitting and show prep - http://mysrf.org/pdf/pdf_dairy/goat_handbook/dg7.pdf
This talks a little bit about the faults, and shows the score card again, and the parts of the goat - http://www.thejudgingconnection.com/pdfs/Judging_Dairy_Goats.pdf

On the 5-25-45 chart, 25 is the number they like to see. It's used for linear appraisals, so it's mostly what the appraisers use as a guide, but it helps to see what they look for. Try looking at some of the big breeders sites and compare their legs and udders to the card and see what you find. Often times you will see they are closer to the 25 than anything else.

And here is a very old guide, but everyone on here will learn a lot from it. It has good drawings and explains what they are, what's correct and what's not. It will also help everyone understand the score card. http://sarasota.ifas.ufl.edu/4-H/RBooks/4-H Dairy Goat Judging.pdf


----------



## margaret

Lacie, just wanted to let you know you're awesome


----------



## Barnes19

Yay we have a teacher back! I must read through this properly ...

I can confirm my Rita does fit the description of "shoulder assembly too far forward". This is exactly the fault!! I can actually see the strain coming on it when she walks downhill. I'm glad to see her kid (Maxi) has a much better shoulder.

I think quite a few of the things that seem really odd from CPK's Kiko critique come from the published standard for the Kiko breed. 

They're requiring some weird stuff ... a flowing line to follow from topline through rump and down to the hock with a slight angle: also a rectangular body: and they're wanting the distance from wither to elbow to be 60% of total height ... all written in the official breed standard ... mostly they are traits coming from the NZ feral goat.

What practical purpose they have is unclear ... some of them I know contribute to agility ... others just seem alien ... they must have reasons, I'd love to know what they are.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> Lacie, just wanted to let you know you're awesome


Agree! You do a great job teaching us, Lacie 

http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> I think quite a few of the things that seem really odd from CPK's Kiko critique come from the published standard for the Kiko breed.
> 
> They're requiring some weird stuff ... a flowing line to follow from topline through rump and down to the hock with a slight angle: also a rectangular body: and they're wanting the distance from wither to elbow to be 60% of total height ... all written in the official breed standard ... mostly they are traits coming from the NZ feral goat.
> 
> What practical purpose they have is unclear ... some of them I know contribute to agility ... others just seem alien ... they must have reasons, I'd love to know what they are.


I agree...I don't know why some of those are written into the standard, maybe we should contact them and ask.
I think the "60% of total body height" is to show how much depth of body they want, not just that Kikos have to have good depth of body, I think that might have been written in to actually show it.
They explain the rectangle body a bit..."long and wide" is what comes after "rectangle body type", I believe 
What I don't get is the " flowing line to follow from topline through rump and down to the hock with a slight angle"

...maybe I should read through both Kiko standards, and put some reasons to maybe why things were written in, what things don't make sense, etc. And maybe some one else could do that too  Maybe that would help 

But is it OK if we do that on here? Since the Kiko breed is a maternal breed, and has a dairy background? And cause Lacie is here?


----------



## scambo

Can someone critique this British Alpine doeling?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

She's beautiful!!! I'll do her later today


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## margaret

No. *I* will:lol:
WE can both both do her She's beautiful by the way


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> No. *I* will:lol:
> WE can both both do her She's beautiful by the way


But _*I*_ said so first! :mecry: So I get first dibs! :lol:


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## margaret

Well I'm almost done critiquing her anyway:lol:
First come first serve:lol:
You do her too


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## margaret

For that lovely Sundgau. I love critiquing Alpines
Cons:
~Lacks brisket
~Toes out in front
~toes out a little in back
~Could be more smoothly blended from the brisket into the neck.
~Short rump
Pros
~Long neck
~Lean neck
~Sharp withers
~Level topline
~Strong topline
~Strong chine
~Uphill
~fairly level over the rump
~Strong pasterns
~Good depth of barrel
~Good depth of heart girth
~Smoothly blended from the neck into the withers
~Smoothly blended from the neck into the shoulder
~Good dairy character 
~Good angularity
~Well angulated rear legs
~Strong jaw and broad muzzle
~Hocks parallel with pinbones
~Good length to body
~Fair body capacity, I think she’ll get more as she grows
~Very feminine


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

:mecry:....I'll do her in a bit then...since Margaret beat me to her  :lol:


----------



## margaret

Sorry, I just felt like critiquing something and I came on here and there was this beautiful Alpine doe kid...I just couldn't resist:lol:
Now, I better go do school...


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Alpine Doeling:

Pros:
-Good length of jaw
-Broad muzzle
-Nice ear set
-Clean throat latch
-Clean, sharp neck
-Good neck length
-Sharp withers
-Fairly good depth in heart girth
-Neck blends smoothly into shoulder and withers
-Shoulder is smooth, and blends nicely into barrel
-Tight elbows
-Clean, sharp front legs
-Good cannon bone length
-Front pasterns strong, maybe a tad too long
-Uphill
-Good dairy character
-Good spring of ribs
-Good depth in middle barrel
-Good body capacity
-Good long topline
-Hindquarters are well set, and in proportion with the rest of her 
-From the way she's standing, she looks to have good width between hocks
-Chest floor blends smoothly into heart girth
-Barrel blends nicely into hindquarters
-Angled back legs
-Hocks and pins lined up
-Really nice, upright short rear pasterns
-Good bone length in legs
-Really nice body length



Cons:
-Lacks brisket
-For how refined her body is, her head seems almost course
-Topline could be a tad more level
-Rump could be a tad longer
-Toes out in back

-Rump seems to curve up instead of staying straight? Lacie, why/what is that?
-From the angle of the picture, it looks like her shoulder assembly is a tad too far forward? (Lacie? )


Ok, I think that's it for now on her!


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## margaret

Yeah, I think her head could be more feminine.
You don't think she toes out in the front?


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## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> Yeah, I think her head could be more feminine.
> You don't think she toes out in the front?


Now that you mention it, yeah, she does


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Lacie, what does esutcheon do and what is good/bad things to look for in it?


----------



## Barnes19

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> ...maybe I should read through both Kiko standards, and put some reasons to maybe why things were written in, what things don't make sense, etc. And maybe some one else could do that too  Maybe that would help
> 
> But is it OK if we do that on here? Since the Kiko breed is a maternal breed, and has a dairy background? And cause Lacie is here?


You know what, I have been thinking of starting a thread for this!! Not specifically Kiko but for all.

You know, to document conformational traits in detail for those who are interested.

I'd thought posts with a description of the trait, examples of good and bad, and the practical reasons for the trait, would be a great resource.

I know a lot of people that simply ignore conformation under the impression thats just for fancy show goers. But most of the desirable traits have very good practical reasons behind them and I'd love to see them properly cataloged properly somewhere.

The reason I have hesitated is because I can see it turning into a mess with people mentioning a trait but not saying much and others adding info to it pages later ... Someone looking through for concise information may be challenged.

For the Kikos ... I'm pretty sure the 45 degree pasterns are for agility. So is the slight angle on the hock.

The way the rump follows the line etc is something that comes from the feral. They all have it, and very short steep rumps usually. Puzzles me as long level is supposed to be easy kidding ... but the ferals are the easiest kidders of the lot. The way all the ferals have reverted to this trait indicates it must be good for survival in some way.

If we want to start discussing the whys and wherefores of conformation traits, (which I'm all eager on by the way) I suggest we start a thread rather than crashing in on Margaret again. It could get lengthy!!

I'm hoping someone can post some good goats on this one soon and get things moving ... hint hint ... ?


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> You know what, I have been thinking of starting a thread for this!! Not specifically Kiko but for all.
> 
> You know, to document conformational traits in detail for those who are interested.
> 
> I'd thought posts with a description of the trait, examples of good and bad, and the practical reasons for the trait, would be a great resource.
> 
> The reason I have hesitated is because I can see it turning into a mess with people mentioning a trait but not saying much and others adding info to it pages later ... Someone looking through for concise information may be challenged.
> 
> If we want to start discussing the whys and wherefores of conformation traits, (which I'm all eager on by the way) I suggest we start a thread rather than crashing in on Margaret again. It could get lengthy!!


What a great idea, Stacey! I can see how it would bet messy, but if each person posted in bold letters what their post was about, I think that would help a bit  I think that would be a great idea  Hopefully, Lacie, Sydney, Ariella, etc will join in on that one!


----------



## Barnes19

Er .... ahem .... _**coughs politely for attention**_

Hello?? ... _**waits, listening to the echo**

_Is anyone out there??? Everything seems to have gone quiet ...


----------



## nigies4ever

Lol...don't let the thread die! Who's got goats that we can critique the heck out of? :lol:


----------



## Bree_6293

Ok I have a mother and daughter that I have just purchased to pick up later in the week. They are australian mini goats 

This is mom - gretal









And daughter - Russian roulette









From Australia and breeding australian miniature goats and boer goats. Plus I have horses for eventing and heaps more animals!!!!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> Er .... ahem .... _**coughs politely for attention**_
> 
> Hello?? ... _**waits, listening to the echo**
> 
> _Is anyone out there??? Everything seems to have gone quiet ...


:anyone: :lol: true, Stacey! I was wondering the same thing  Bree's got some real cute goats up now


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## bbpygmy

Would this be a good herd sire? There are a few for sale, but this one caught my eye. Thanks.


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## Barnes19

Nice! I'm going to enjoy these. Please don't let my having done them put you off!!

Oh-oh I've got to go back and find Lacie's long critique and lets see how far I can go!

Gretal:

Lovely feminine face
Clean juncture of the jaw and throat
Long neck??
Lean neck
Neck blends nicely into the withers
Sharp withers
Neck ties well into the shoulder assembly
Smooth shoulder assembly
Nice straight forelegs
Good feet
Fairly decent spring of rib I think
Nice depth in middle barrel
Good length of body
Rump is a good length
Teats are of lovely size and shape
Teats are nicely positioned and straight
Nice short pasterns
Fairly strong back pasterns

Lacks brisket
Slight dip in her chine
Need to be more uphill
Could use more depth in her rear barrel
Steep rump
Front pasterns could be stronger
Back legs have a little too much angle to the hock
I can't see her udder showing ... which suggests it is small. But without knowing stage of lactation, and whether she's been milked, I can't say for certain.

Can't see heart girth

Her spring of rib I'm not sure what to say about. Easier to see from the front, but judging from her shape and the way the ribbon hangs, I think her spring of rib is ... well ... normal. 
Not really lacking, but not well sprung either. What do you say?? "Average spring of rib?" How do you address this?


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## Bree_6293

Gretal wasn't in milk when these photos were taken.

In case you want some more to do...
I have put an order in from these two as well. Now just hoping for a buck!
















And the buck








From Australia and breeding australian miniature goats and boer goats. Plus I have horses for eventing and heaps more animals!!!!


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## Barnes19

Hmm once that posted up its not as long as I thought it was. Never mind.
I'd be very interested if Lacie wants to pick it apart?
_
**__:?__oh-oh __sudden thought ... was there a charge to that?? $0.10??!!! OH NO you'll break the bank!!:shocked::tears:**_

Russian Roulette:

Strong jaw
Clean junction of jaw and throat
Neck blends nicely into the withers
Nice withers
Neck ties into the shoulder assembly
Smooth shoulder assembly
I think her front legs are good
Short pasterns
Strong pasterns
Good feet
Good depth of heart girth (I know its hidden but you can see how this one must go behind there)
Good depth of barrel
Good body capacity for her age

Short neck
Downhill stature
Lacks brisket
Rump could be a tad longer
Steep rump
Her rear legs are set too far back ... that may be just how she is standing

Her forelegs are standing well forwards ... I'm sure that is just how she is standing. Hard to say she has "straight forelegs" when they're like that, but I think she does ordinarily.

Its hard to say with that ribbon there but I think her chine is stronger than her mother's. If she was to mature more uphill she'd have a very nice topline I think.


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## Barnes19

Bree_6293 said:


> Gretal wasn't in milk when these photos were taken.


In that case, I doubly think her teats are very nice! I'd love to see it in milk.

Wow, I've got to go, but I LOVE the body capacity on that second doe you've just posted!!
I can see plenty of faults, but that depth of barrel is astounding. Wow.

Nice looking buck. Very uphill stature. Both Gretal and these does would benefit from that.


----------



## margaret

Sorry guys, just been busy with babies and pig butchering, certainly don't want to let this die!


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## margaret

bbpygmy said:


> Would this be a good herd sire? There are a few for sale, but this one caught my eye. Thanks.
> View attachment 90704


He's pretty nice, I'll critique him later. Do you have pics of his dam?


----------



## bbpygmy

First pic: dam's Udder
second pic: Dam's dam udder
Third pic: sire's dam udder


----------



## bbpygmy

First Pic dam: Little Tot's Estate Kirby 1*M/*D/*DD
second pic: Dam's dam Little Tot's Estate Platycodon
Third pic: Dam's Sire CH Buttin'Heads Red Branch Legend *S
Fourth pic: Sire *B Helmstead Mini's FF Spit Fire *S/*DS VG+ 89.3
Fifth pic: Sire's Dam CapraKoza TT Northern Lights
Sixth pic: Sire's Sire +B MCH/GCH/PGCH Kids Corral LL Fire Flame +S/+DS 'VG'


----------



## margaret

Nice lines. But I don't like his dams udder much.
I LOVE the buck in the last pic


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## Scottyhorse

Eww, Little Tots Estate


----------



## Barnes19

Bree's first doe in post #275

Long neck
Lean neck
Decent brisket??
Smooth shoulder assembly
Straight front legs
Nice definition of withers
Good depth of heart girth
Excellent depth of barrel
Excellent body capacity
Rump is an OK length
Pasterns are short
Front pasterns are decent strength, could be better

Ewe neck
Weak chine
Steep rump
Would like a bit more length on the rump
Back legs are a little posty
Back pasterns are weak
Toes out at the back
Teats lack diameter

Doe #2

Neck is an ok length ... would benefit from a touch more length.
Good brisket
Good depth of heart girth
Excellent depth of barrel
Amazing body capacity!
Good spring of rib
Slightly uphill stature
Straight front legs
Udder looks like it will have capacity

Neck is a little thick
Weak chine
Weak pasterns
Posty back legs
Rump could use more length
Rump is very steep
Teats are too fat and lack definition

They are pregnant, correct?

I think they could use a bit more copper, or possibly worming ... no fishtail, but they look rough coated.

Buck
Difficult to do from this angle, but lets see.
Broad forehead
Strong jaw
Long neck
Smooth shoulder assembly
Straight front legs
Good brisket
Sharp wither
Nice strong topline
Good uphill stature
Good depth of heart girth
Decent depth of middle barrel
Body capacity ok for a buck, I'd like to see more though.
Good length of body
Strong pasterns
Good feet
Good angle on the back leg ... if you look at the near one that is

Neck is too thick.
Could use more depth of rear barrel.
Would like to see more body capacity

Its partly the angle of the photo, but he is overall too thick in the front, and just a little to slender in the rear. Needs to be more proportional.

I think he will be a very good match for your does.
You have steep rumps on them all though, that is a fault you should try and counter with future purchases.


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## Barnes19

Reffering to the udders in post #280

I'm not very good at critiqueing udders ... mostly I'm good at milking them lol.

However, I am seeing that all three lack medial ligament strength, 2 is the worst.
The rear attatchments are all pretty good.
The teats are fairly well defined, particularly in pic 2.
For ease of milking I like teats slightly larger.
In pic 1, the teats are set very far apart on the outside edges of the udder. Will be more tricky to milk. Pic 3 is a bit this way too.
The position and angle of the teats is better in pic 2.
All three udders could use more capacity.
(unless they are all FF, in which case the capacity will still come, and the teat size can be forgiven too).
The doe in pic one is cow hocked.

Now I'm 100% certain the wording of that is ... er ... nontraditional. Sorry! If anyone wants to correct the phrasing I'd be very interested. I just hope my meaning gets across.


----------



## Bree_6293

I don't own these. I am getting a buck kid from this buck and one of her does. I will post some of the other does I can choose from.

1:






















2:








3:








4:








5:








6:








From Australia and breeding australian miniature goats and boer goats. Plus I have horses for eventing and heaps more animals!!!!


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## Barnes19

I'm going to do #3, because something jumps out about her. (I'm sure everyone looking at her knows what it is!!) I will do more of them, but I have to go and milk soon.
First I'll do the rest of her, then her udder ...
Its hard to do her in this pose, but lets see what I can do.

Long neck
Lean neck
Decent depth of heart girth
Good depth of barrel
Good body capacity
Decent spring of rib
Good angle on the back legs
Short pasterns
Rear pasterns look fairly strong

Her rump I think is the most level of any of the goats you've posted so far. In saying that it is steep.

Front pasterns are a bit weak
Rump is steep
Rump could use a little more length

I can't say whether she is uphill or not with her head down
I can't say anything about her chine either
I'm not sure of her front legs with them like that ... they may be weak in the knee, I'd rather look at them straight.
Can't see brisket
Hard to say on her shoulder ... it could be that her shoulder assembly is too far forward, it could be the angle of her leg in this pic.

Now the udder.

How old is she??? If she's an older doe it was probably better (at least less pendulous) once, but if she's fairly young it will get worse.
Her fore attachment is very poor.
Her teats are tiny, really tiny
Her teats are stuck too far on the outside
Her udder is hanging too low, it is actually quite pendulous.

It has one good point I can see, that is that it is a decent size.

With the size of her udder, and her visible body capacity, she actually probably produces a decent quantity of milk.
However, those teats will make her very slow and difficult to milk, and the shape and hang of the udder will only get worse.

Her redeeming factor would be if she is a good enough producer to be worthwhile breeding her to a buck with very excellent udders.

I would like to know what the udder genes of the buck is like before accepting a kid from her. She does have a more level rump than most of your goats, but it is still steep, and the buck would have to have an excellent rump to be worth accepting a kid for that reason.

But if you're looking at getting a kid, most of these does would be better to get it from. I like #1 best!
Are there kids available from all of these? Some of the best are only doelings in these pics, are they older pics?


----------



## Bree_6293

I don't have pictures of them when they are older. I might be able to get some from the owner she is very good  I can get a kid from any of these does to that buck. I am wanting a buck kid from the buck. I am really after a blue eyed buck with good conformation. If the lady doesn't get one that I like a don't have to buy any. I really like the original doe I posted back in post #175 I think? She is an older doe. 9 yrs old. She has some really nice kids that are now older. Some that are posted above are her does. 


From Australia and breeding australian miniature goats and boer goats. Plus I have horses for eventing and heaps more animals!!!!


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## Barnes19

I think you mean post #275, right?

I like the second doe in that post best ... reason ... greater body capacity (although they are both excellent, and it may only mean she has more kids on board!), also, her udder I think is better.

Her teats are too thick and lacking definition, but this is something that comes out more with age, as a younger goat they would have been good probably. The other doe, the first one, has very small teats, well defined but small, and if she is 9, they must have been very tiny once, and probably her kids will have tiny teats too. Her udder is also not as large.

Given the choice, I would choose from the kids of the second doe in post 275, or the first doe in post 286.

How critical are the blue eyes to you?? Given a nice buck kid from that stud and either of those two does, I wouldn't turn him down on eye colour alone ... although blue eyes are nice!


----------



## Bree_6293

Yes sorry 275. In that post. The first two pictures are the same doe just different sides of her. Both times are when she is empty. 


From Australia and breeding australian miniature goats and boer goats. Plus I have horses for eventing and heaps more animals!!!!


----------



## Barnes19

!!! Gosh do you see the difference in the udder?? They look like very different goats! There is a massive difference in the udder. I've never seen anything like it. Are they different years, different stages of lactation? You say even the second one is empty? wow that is a surprise.

I saw similarities in the conformation, but I guessed they were just related, initially I had looked at them as one goat, but then saw the different udder, and a few other minor differences, and concluded they could not be the same!


----------



## Bree_6293

One is when she had twins at foot the other is after they had been taken off?


From Australia and breeding australian miniature goats and boer goats. Plus I have horses for eventing and heaps more animals!!!!


----------



## Bree_6293

And #1 in the other post is her daughter 


From Australia and breeding australian miniature goats and boer goats. Plus I have horses for eventing and heaps more animals!!!!


----------



## Barnes19

Ah it must be that she was being kept very empty by the kids in one, and it was different when she was being milked instead. Its still a very marked difference.

I sort of thought number one might be hers! She's lovely.


----------



## Bree_6293

Yer I am hoping one of these two girls has a nice buck kid  they were my two favourites. We have also had a buck on lease that has been with 3 does so I am hoping to keep a buck kid from him as he has good bloodlines too that are different to these ones. 


From Australia and breeding australian miniature goats and boer goats. Plus I have horses for eventing and heaps more animals!!!!


----------



## NewbieNubian

Critique this fella? Not mine, but interested in him as a future herdsire. Sorry about the massive pics.


----------



## dreamacresfarm2

Update on Star - he is now 17 weeks and weighs 68# - 27 inches at withers - he is going to his new home in the next few days. His new owner is going to use him as a herd sire. Pix of him now - how does he look? ( bad rear pic - he wouldn't be still){this is the 36 hour buckling I rescued}


----------



## Goatzrule

Willow is almost a year old, ND


----------



## margaret

Cons:
~Short rump
~Steep rump
~Lacks depth of heat girth
~Lacks depth of barrel
~Needs stronger pasterns
~Needs to be a little smoother in the chest
Pros
~Good length to body
~Excellent angularity
~Good dairy character
~Well angulated rear legs
~Very good width between hocks
~Long neck
~Lean neck
~Well placed thurls
~Pinbones parallel with hocks
~Sharp withers
~Uphill
~Level topline
~Strong topline
~Straight front legs
`Smoothly blended

Nice buck. What's his dam look like?


----------



## margaret

That was for the Lamancha buckling.


----------



## nigies4ever

Goatzrule said:


> Willow is almost a year old, ND


I'm gonna go ahead and give Willow a try&#8230;.bear with me here. 

Pros:
Straight front legs that are fairly parallel to the withers
Good depth for a yearling
Feminine face
Good breed character

Cons:
Neck looks short/thick
Rear legs look a tad posty
Slight dip in the chine
Rump steep/short
Back pasterns look weak, but I can't see the front ones
Lacks brisket
Lacks dairy character

She's a pretty girl, but I do think she'll improve when she freshens.

Lacie, correct me if I'm wrong, lol.


----------



## NewbieNubian

margaret said:


> Cons:
> ~Short rump
> ~Steep rump
> ~Lacks depth of heat girth
> ~Lacks depth of barrel
> ~Needs stronger pasterns
> ~Needs to be a little smoother in the chest


Would any of these cons improve with age possibly?

I'm waiting on pics of his dam and related siblings.


----------



## nigies4ever

How old is he? The rump probably won't level out, but it's only a very slight slope. The depth will, more than likely, improve with age.

I agree with Margaret's critique, he's very nice. To me, these are minor flaws on him. With the right doe, he'd produce some stellar kids.


----------



## NewbieNubian

He's a yearling now, pics were from last summer and the only ones the breeder had on hand. I'm waiting on current pics from the breeder, as well as one of his mother, fresh sister, and brother. His pedigree is rather foreign to me, but he does go back to a phenomenal Kastdemur doe.


----------



## margaret

Yes, his depth should improve with age, the rump is probably his worse fault.


----------



## Goatzrule

Iris aka Ellie, thats her ff udder


----------



## nigies4ever

Goatzrule said:


> Iris aka Ellie, thats her ff udder


These pictures aren't super great, so I'll give her a try, but just know that the critiques may not be 100% accurate.

Pros:
Good depth of barrel 
Good blending of withers/shoulders (if that makes sense)
Looks to be fairly strong on her pasterns, but it's a bit hard to tell

Cons:
Steep rump
Short rump
Posty back legs
Short neck
Topline not level
Face a little masculine for my liking
Lacks brisket
Toes out very slightly in the rear
Slight dip in the chine
Not "defined" enough (hip bones, spring of rib, etc.)
Lacks depth of heart girth
Lacks width (specifically in the rear: her rump isn't wide enough, although her legs don't look too narrow)

Udder Pros:
Awesome medial
Good capacity
Rear attachments look pretty good
Even halves

Udder Cons:
Teats placed too far apart
Teats point outwards
Could be arched higher into the escutcheon
Fore udder attachments look like they could improve, but it's a bit hard to tell

Overall, I think her biggest flaw is her top line/rump, and her greatest strength is her udder. Seriously..in my opinion, that's an AWESOME FF udder...I'm jealous!

Is she set up in that picture? The reason I ask is because she may look slightly better pinched down and spread out a bit.  Bred to a buck who's got the levelness she lacks would give you some absolutely gorgeous kids!

Pretty girl, though! Experts, please correct any mistakes. (lol)


----------



## Goatzrule

She is horrible in shows, she is beautiful when she is by herself but if anyone else is in the arena she will get tense. I was very happy with her ff udder and with that being the fist time i let her fill. I tried to set her up the best i can but she is a bit moody in the show ring.


----------



## nigies4ever

I totally understand that  I have a soon to be FF ND that acts like she's in full on standing heat every time she's in the show ring! I hope she freshens to look like your doe! I don't think I've seen an udder like that on any ND, let alone an FF!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

New list folks! 

*Helpful teaching posts:*

Lacie's long critique post: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index22.html

Charts of goat body parts: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index23.html

More helpful stuff: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index25.html

*Need doing:

*Stacey's baby udder:http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index20.html bbpygmy's Nigi buck, and then his ancestor's udders (posts 273 & 280): http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index28.html

bbpygmy's:
Little Tot's Estate Kirby 1*M/*D/*DD
Dam's dam Little Tot's Estate Platycodon
Dam's Sire CH Buttin'Heads Red Branch Legend *S
Sire *B Helmstead Mini's FF Spit Fire *S/*DS VG+ 89.3
Sire's Dam CapraKoza TT Northern Lights
Sire's Sire +B MCH/GCH/PGCH Kids Corral LL Fire Flame +S/+DS 'VG' 
(ALL on page: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index29.html)

Bree's goats in post 286: ( #3 was done): http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index29.html

Dreamacresfarm2's Nubian buck, Star: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index30.html

*
Have only one, maybe two, critiques: *
Bree's Gretal & Russian Roulette: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index28.html

Bree's two does and buck in post 275: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index28.html

NewbieNubian's Lamancha buck: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index30.html

Kelsie's Willow: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index30.html

Kelsie's Ellie: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-dummies-1-5-a-175373/index31.html


----------



## Goatzrule

nigies4ever said:


> I totally understand that  I have a soon to be FF ND that acts like she's in full on standing heat every time she's in the show ring! I hope she freshens to look like your doe! I don't think I've seen an udder like that on any ND, let alone an FF!


Thank you, she was my first ND doe and I got very lucky. I think im going to give her some herbs or something for the show ring to help her relax. She is the type of doe that needs everything under control and when shes at a fair she has no idea of what's going on. I hope she throws me nice kids, last year she threw me a beautiful buckling who i sadly wethered, but this year Im going to sell a buckling out of her.


----------



## NewbieNubian

Got another one! This is the sire of a buckling I just put a deposit on, what do you think?

Name: Heart Mtn Northern Knight

Can provide pictures of his dam.


----------



## dreamacresfarm2

bump - any one around?


----------



## nigies4ever

NewbieNubian said:


> Got another one! This is the sire of a buckling I just put a deposit on, what do you think?
> 
> Name: Heart Mtn Northern Knight
> 
> Can provide pictures of his dam.


Wow, I really like him! Okay&#8230;let me give this a shot..

Pros:
Incredible depth and width (seen in the barrel capacity, spacing between the hocks, etc.
Very masculine
Looks to have good blending throughout (correct me if I'm wrong)

Cons:
Topline not as level as I'd like it to be
Steep rump
Neck needs to be longer/thinner
Body length needs to be longer
Slight dip in the chine
Lacks brisket

He's got the makings of a very nice herd sire, in my opinion. I'd love to see the dam of the boy you're purchasing. If she's got good udder lines and some of the levelness he lacks, you're in for an awesome kid.


----------



## NewbieNubian

I sadly couldn't get any good pics of the dam. The dam was Grand Champion at one of the shows last year as a second-freshener. Here's the pics I did get. The first one is her as a yearling FF, she's the lighter one on the right. Second pic is her currently with her triplets. Third and fourth pics are Northern Knight's dam, Becca's Harlequin Bahama, as a three-year old. Last pic is the buckling himself.


----------



## nigies4ever

NewbieNubian said:


> I sadly couldn't get any good pics of the dam. The dam was Grand Champion at one of the shows last year as a second-freshener. Here's the pics I did get. The first one is her as a yearling FF, she's the lighter one on the right. Second pic is her currently with her triplets. Third and fourth pics are the Northern Knight's dam, Becca's Harlequin Bahama, as a three-year old.


Oh my goodness, if that's her FF udder, you're in for a great udder buck. She also looks more level than the sire..I'd love to see a pic of this kid when you get him! I really think he's gonna be gorgeous!


----------



## nigies4ever

In all seriousness, from what I can see, her udder looks to be pretty darn close to perfect in my opinion! Most does don't get udders like that until they're at least a couple freshenings in...super jealous! Do you mind me asking what her registered name is?


----------



## NewbieNubian

She's registered with the Canadian Goat Society as Triple C Yellow Rose. She consistently gives triplets and the breeder says she's a big doe. I'll likely be showing the buckling I'm purchasing at one of the shows this summer when he's about four months old, so I'll make sure to get pics then to show off. Here's a few pics of the kid now, but he's only a couple of weeks old.


----------



## nigies4ever

He's adorable


----------



## dreamacresfarm2

Could someone please critique my nubian buckling. He is getting picked up tomorrow and the more good and bad points I know the better I will do with the trade.


----------



## nigies4ever

dreamacresfarm2 said:


> Could someone please critique my nubian buckling. He is getting picked up tomorrow and the more good and bad points I know the better I will do with the trade.


Pics?


----------



## nigies4ever

Whoops, found them dream acres...here ya go:

Pros: 
Good blending of the shoulders into the withers
Good width
Fairly good length of body

Cons:
Needs to be more uphill
Top line not level
Lacks depth
Posty rear legs
Steep rump
Weak pasterns
Lacks brisket
Short neck


----------



## margaret

Dreamacres buckling.

Pros:
~Fair depth for age
~OK length of body
~Smoothly blended from neck into shoulders
~Smoothly blended from neck into withers
~Sharp withers
~Good width
~Good width between hock
~Doesn't toe out in front

Cons:
~Posty rear legs
~lacks brisket
~Needs longer neck
~needs leaner neck
~slightly weak pasterns
~Needs to be more uphill
~needs a more level topline
~Needs a stronger topline
~Steep rump
~short rump
~hocks not parallel with pinbones


----------



## nigies4ever

Can someone explain to me what ewe-necked means?


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Instead of the neck being straight it curves inward on the vertebra side, mostly down at the withers.


----------



## nigies4ever

Ah, gotcha. Thanks, Lacie. I guess that means Athena is slightly ewe-necked...good thing the buck she's bred to us not!


----------



## nigies4ever

We need more goats to critique!


----------



## Bree_6293

This is my little doe just after she has been sick so please ignore her horrible condition but it's the only photo I have of a goat some what standing nicely! 4 month old australian miniature goat. Has been to one show where she placed 3rd from about 25/30


----------



## Bree_6293

She has completely lost her nice top line that she had as she was sick and not really eating for 2/3 weeks


----------



## FloatnRockRanch

*Mine please?*

I don't have any "setup" pics.... Nubian/Boer cross. But it would be awesome to find out what needs to be bred for improvement and what good qualities they have. Well I guess I only have side profile pics of Stella. I have no idea what are good or bad qualities in conformation so give it to me! :-D


----------



## Goatzrule

(im new at this) It really depends on the goats purpose (im judging it as a dairy goat)
Pros
long neck
long body 
deep in the chin

Cons
Step rump 
could have straighter back
could be more dairy 
smoother blending at the neck
someone else will be better at this


----------



## NewbieNubian

Critique this buckling! I've had his sire critiqued previously, but the breeder finally sent me some good pics of him and his mother as well, so let's see what you folks say! Buckling was born March 19th. Pictures are in links for cleaner viewing.

Triple C Cheeky Monkey, Side View, Rear View.

Dam: Triple C Yellow Rose, Side View. Rear View. 4th freshening doe, has had triplets on every freshening (including first).

Sire: Heart Mt Northern Knight, Side View.

Sire's Dam: Becca's Harlequin Bahama, Side View. Rear View.

My (newbie) opinion:
Long rump
Nice topline
Deep bodied
Rump seems a little steep to me

Not noticing anything else glaring, but I know there's people better at this than me.


----------



## bbpygmy

Here's a yearling FF LaMancha doe we are getting. She will mainly be used for milking, but I plan to use her for 4-H. The first picture is her when she was younger, the second picture is her now, third and fourth pictures are her udder.
View attachment 93859
View attachment 93860
View attachment 93861
View attachment 93862


----------



## Goatzrule

Pros
good fore udder attachment
medial suspensory ligament
long body
long rump
level rump

Cons
wethers could be blend better
could use a little more depth in the barrel
barrel could be stronger supported across the back 
(someone correct me i am new at this)


----------



## margaret

Cons:
~Lacks brisket
~needs longer rump
~Needs sharper withers
~needs stronger pasterns
~lacks depth of heart girth
~lacks depth of rear barrel
~Needs a more capacious udder, but she’s only a yearling FF so that should improve with age.
~It could just be the hair in the 2nd photo but i think her shoulders and withers need to be more smoothly blended.
~No ears:lol:

Pros:
~long neck
~Lean neck
~level topline
~Strong topline
~Strong chine
~Uphill
~level rump
~Good dairy character
~Good angularity
~Well angulated rear legs
~hocks parallel with pinbones
~Looks too have nice width between hocks
~Doesn’t toe out in front
~Strong medial 
~Good rear udder attachments
~OK rear udder arch
~well spaced teats
~good sized teats for a FF
~Excellent fore udder


----------



## margaret

Lamancha buckling
Cons:
~Lacks deth
~Needs a tad bit more width between hocks
~Longer,leaner neck

Pros:
~Uphill
~Strong topline
~Level topline
~long rump
~Fairly level rump
~sharp withers
~Strong pasterns
~Nice front legs
~OK Brisket
~good length
will finish later


----------



## nigies4ever

margaret said:


> Cons:
> ~No ears:lol:


I'd consider this a Pro :lol:


----------



## margaret

Yeah well...we don't need to get into a long disussion about how I hate Lamanchas:slapfloor: but let's just say they aren't my favorite breed:ROFL:


----------



## NewbieNubian

margaret said:


> Lamancha buckling
> Cons:
> ~Lacks deth
> ~Needs a tad bit more width between hocks
> ~Longer,leaner neck
> 
> Pros:
> ~Uphill
> ~Strong topline
> ~Level topline
> ~long rump
> ~Fairly level rump
> ~sharp withers
> ~Strong pasterns
> ~Nice front legs
> ~OK Brisket
> ~good length
> will finish later


Will finish later? There that many pros to him? Lol. I feel like I'm getting one hell of a buck here, which makes me happy. I also like knowing the cons so I know what to look for in the doelings I'm buying to go with him.


----------



## margaret

Yeah, I'm not done yet He's a nice buck


----------



## NewbieNubian

Lol. Now I feel like I've really gotten a steal of a deal on him too! I'll have some doeling pics topost soon as well, just waiting for the breeders to send me pics.

Also, I assume his depth could improve with age? Given the depth of body on his parents he certainly has the genetic potential.


----------



## margaret

Oh yeah, he's young, it should improve with age


----------



## margaret

Someone can do this doe kid.


----------



## Goatzrule

She's beautiful!


----------



## Goat_in_Himmel

I love that crazy circle in a triangle marking! And her apparent pewter colour.
I'm pretty lame at critiquing. I like her, except for her lack of width and depth, some of which will come with age, I trust; but it looks like her rib cage doesn't want to flare outward in that typical dairy silhouette. I'd like to read what someone more knowledgeable has to say.


----------



## COgoatLover25

Someone needs to get this thread going again!


----------



## margaret

Yeah well, you left, so we just automatically shut it down:lol:


----------



## COgoatLover25

You started this thread after I left so get it started again :lol:


----------



## margaret

Oh. Well so much for that excuse:lol:


----------



## Bree_6293

3 year old Australian miniature doe. Currently pregnant. This is when she was approx 2 months from due date.


----------



## NewbieNubian

Here's a LaMancha doeling to critique! Last picture is her dam at a similar age.


----------



## CritterCarnival

He's a 6 week old PB Nubian. His brother is not buck-worthy and will go to freezer camp, but I think this guy might be worth hanging onto to show. Would anyone critique him for me please?


----------



## Goatzrule

im still getting the hang of this but..
pros-
tall 
long even rump
deep in the barrel 

Cons-
stronger barrel
better blended thru the withers/neck

someone else will be better at this


----------



## margaret

LM doe #2
Cons
Pins not parallel with hocks
Steep rump
Longer neck
Lacks brisket
Higher withers
Smoother blending from neck into shoulders

Pros
Dairy neck
Sharp withers
Level topline
Strong chine
Strong topline
Excellent pasterns
Good rear leg angulation
Good dairy character
No toe out
Appears to have good width between hocks
Ok length to rump
Ok depth of barrel for a kid
Good depth of heart girth.


----------



## Goat_in_Himmel

Maybe someone can edify me...taking the above buck, for example...my first thought is that he has a fairly level rump; I'm making that judgement looking at his topline. Are you supposed to ignore the topline in judging rump levelness, and look at the relationship between the hipbones and pinbones instead, because the tail adds false levelness? Or...?


----------



## COgoatLover25

Goat_in_Himmel said:


> Maybe someone can edify me...taking the above buck, for example...my first thought is that he has a fairly level rump; I'm making that judgement looking at his topline. Are you supposed to ignore the topline in judging rump levelness, and look at the relationship between the hipbones and pinbones instead, because the tail adds false levelness? Or...?


The rump is the area on the top line between the hip bones and the pin bones, the tail has nothing to do with it. If you'll look at the picture, you'll see that the buck is not standing with his hocks directly beneath his pin bones ( as they are supposed to be ) so it does make his rump look more level than it really is. If this buck was set up correctly, his rump would look much more steep. I assume also, that if he was setup correctly his rump wouldn't be too terribly steep but wouldn't be nice and level.


----------



## CritterCarnival

COgoatLover25 said:


> The rump is the area on the top line between the hip bones and the pin bones, the tail has nothing to do with it. If you'll look at the picture, you'll see that the buck is not standing with his hocks directly beneath his pin bones ( as they are supposed to be ) so it does make his rump look more level than it really is. If this buck was set up correctly, his rump would look much more steep. I assume also, that if he was setup correctly his rump wouldn't be too terribly steep but wouldn't be nice and level.


Yeah, I agree about his rump, I do believe it's a bit steeper than that pic shows. I really need to schedule a photo assistant and get some good conformation pics of everybody. :lol:


----------



## Goat_in_Himmel

Aha! Thank you COgoatlover25, now a whole lot of things about rump levelness critiques make a lot more sense to me.


----------



## margaret

Hey Lindsey, you should do the other Lamancha doe


----------



## COgoatLover25

Goat_in_Himmel said:


> Aha! Thank you COgoatlover25, now a whole lot of things about rump levelness critiques make a lot more sense to me.



Glad this thread is helping more and more people learn


----------



## COgoatLover25

margaret said:


> Hey Lindsey, you should do the other Lamancha doe


Yeah...I probably should but I don't feel like it right now


----------



## NewbieNubian

Some of you might remember THIS buckling that I had posting for critique a little while back. Well, here's some new pictures of him after his first show, ribbons and all. These were just taken yesterday after he'd completed his classes, finishing under one judge as 2nd and Reserve Junior Champion, and under the other judge as 1st, Junior Champion, and Reserve Grand Champion buck in the show.


----------



## COgoatLover25

Congrats! Nice buck


----------



## COgoatLover25

Here you go Margaret, do this one  1yr 4mo. Dry Nigerian Dwarf doe.


----------



## margaret

Yes ma'am:lol:
She looks nice

Pros
~Lovely neck, very long and dairy
~sharp withers
~Uphill
~Smoothly blended from neck into withers
~Smoothly blended shoulders & brisket
~strong topline
~Level topline
~Strong chine
~good angulation to rear legs
~Good depth of heart girth
~OK depth of barrel for a yearling

Cons
~steep rump, but not too bad for a Nigie
~lacks brisket
~looks to toe out slightly in front and back
I should do more, but I'm feeling very lazy right now


----------



## margaret

Lindsey, how about YOU do this buckling of mine
Sweet Flower LW Taxman. I think he was like 6-7 weeks when I took this picture.


----------



## Emzi00

How about I do him? 
Pros:
Strong pasterns
Good amount of angulation to the rear legs
Straight front legs
Nice level topline
Blends smoothly across the topline
Fairly level, decent lengthed rump
Good length of body
Good width between the hocks
Fairly level from thurl to thurl 
Good amount of width into the chest floor
Okay spring of rib
Dairy looking

Cons:
Neck could be a touch longer
Would like him a little sharper over the withers
Lacks brisket 
Neck could blend smoother into the shoulders
Would like him a bit deeper into the chest floor and at the point of shoulder
Elbows could be tighter
Looks to toe out a touch, more so in the front

So my main problem with him is his front end, but he's not too bad.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

And I commend him for his level of masculinity at such age :lol:

And there is my critique for the day, I'm a helper  :lol:


----------



## Emzi00

Wait mom, how'd I do? :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

You did good. Could have gone more in depth with the entire front end assembly, mentioned a certain thing about the flank, rump width, face, etc. But overall, hmmm, I'll give you a B+ for the day


----------



## Emzi00

Lol, I noticed all that stuff but words are hard sometimes and I'm out of practice :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Fake it till you make it! :lol:


----------



## Emzi00

Alright, some one do Bear. Also, note, the weird awkward look on his shoulder and neck was from his collar, left his hair a little long and it left a mark. :doh:


----------



## COgoatLover25

Well, Emma beat me to it...darn :lol:

Emma, nice buck  :lol:


----------



## Daisy-Mae

I just posted about my daughter two does. They are about 8 months old showing in 4h ornamental class. [Screenshot_2015-07-09-10-49-27.jpgATTACH]97719[/ATTACH]








Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


----------



## margaret

Thank you Emma!
Wow, what an amazing critique Lacie:lol:
And yes, he toes out :lol: 
I should get a current picture of him, he's almost 4 months now.


----------



## margaret

COgoatLover25 said:


> Well, Emma beat me to it...darn :lol:


Yeah Lindsey, I bet you're REALLY disappointed :lol:


----------



## COgoatLover25

margaret said:


> Yeah Lindsey, I bet you're REALLY disappointed :lol:


You have no idea ! :lol:


----------



## margaret

Probably over there crying aren't you? :lol:


----------



## COgoatLover25

I'm drowning in my own tears :lol:


----------



## COgoatLover25

Ok, so since I'm slowly getting out of the Nigerians I'd like you guys to critique these 2 girls, in depth would be fantastic. I personally like the Chamoisee doe myself . But she is the homebred doe so I may be a little bias lol. Feel free to tell me which you like better  sorry for the crappy shave jobs lol, they were used as 4-H demo guinea pigs :lol:
First up is Jan-Jan


























Second is Uptown Girl ( Nope, I didn't name her :lol: )


----------



## COgoatLover25

BTW, both are about the same age with Uptown Girl being about 1 month younger than Jan-Jan


----------



## COgoatLover25

For Bear-

*Pros-*

~Good breed character

~Upstanding in stature

~Sharp withers

~Nicely set shoulders

~Decent brisket

~Masculine while still remaining dairy

~Rear pasterns are short and strong

~Nice depth throughout

~Really nice rear leg angulation

~Fairly long rump

~Nice neck, well proportioned for his size though could be just a bit longer

~Looks like he has nice width between the hocks

~Blends pretty smoothly throughout

~Strong top line

~Cute little beard 

*Cons-*

~Front Pasterns could be a bit more upstanding

~Looks like he toes out a tad bit in the rear?

~Rump could be more level


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Okay, so I've looked through the thread since my last post...over on page 31 which wooonng time ago  but it seems like you guys haven't missed me, especially since Emma & Lacie have posted again! :lol:

Aannd, I didn't see anything that needed me...or that interested me for that matter  Well, maybe the above two girls do


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

What the heck happened to her ears?!


----------



## COgoatLover25

Frostbite, -10 degree weather in January , her dam decided to have her away from the heat lamp lol, she's lucky she made it to be honest.


----------



## margaret

Jan-Jan

Cons
~steepish rump

~Slightly short rump, but not too bad

~toes out in front

~lacks brisket

~would like to see stronger rear legs

Pros
~long neck

~lean neck

~sharp withers

~smoothly blended from withers into neck

~smoothly blended from withers into shoulders

~smoothly blended from brisket into shoulders & neck

~no toe out in front

~OK width in chest

~good width in front legs

~Good width between hocks

~strong topline

~Strong chine

~smooth, level topline

~Good angulation to rear legs

~Good depth of heart girth

~OK depth of barrel

~hocks parallel with pins

That's all for now, goats are running around loose outside, I have to go finish their pen:lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Jan-Jan:

Pros:
-Strong jaw
-Deep jaw
-Long jaw
-Clean throat latch
-Feminine neck
-Good neck length
-Clean neck
-Neck blends very nicely into withers
-Neck blends smoothly into shoulder
-Neck blends smoothly into brisket
-Sharp withers
-Clean withers
-Good shoulder assembly
-Pretty good brisket, could be a bit better
-Front legs placed squarely below shoulder
-Tight elbows
-Clean front legs
-Flat boned front legs
-Strong front legs
-Nice cannon bone length on front legs
-Nice short fore pasterns
-Nicely angled front pasterns
-I like her hooves
-Good chest floor
-Good depth in heart girth
-Shoulder blends smoothly into barrel
-Strong chine
-Good depth in middle barrel
-Good body capacity
-Good body length
-Barrel blends smoothly into hindquarters
-Good hindquarter assembly, but would like to see a bit more length in it
-Strong topline
-Long topline
-Uphill
-Nice rump angle
-Good dairy character
-Nice curve in thigh
-Pin and hock bones line up
-Well placed rear legs
-Good rear pasterns
-Short rear pasterns
-Nice spring to barrel
-Nice width in shoulders
-Cute face  Lacks "breed definition" in it though :lol:
-Nice even rump width
-Thurls look level
-Good rump width

Cons:
-Rump could be longer
-Toes out a wee bit in fore
-Toes out a bit in rear
-Would like to see more depth in her heels
-Would like to see more depth in rear barrel
-Could use a tad more brisket
-Jaw could be a wee bit more refined
-Could have more width between front legs

Lacie? How was that? http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

I see that Margaret and I disagree on a couple things


----------



## margaret

Hey Lindsey, I'll do your other Nigi doeling if you do Tokyo Rose


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

She's turning out real nice, Margaret! Looks much better now then she did as a 2 month old


----------



## margaret

Thanks CPK
I'm pretty dang pleased with her myself


----------



## COgoatLover25

Well, this thread sure is quiet lol.
Your pic has disappeared Margaret


----------



## Bree_6293

View attachment 99336

View attachment 99337


How about this little girl? 5 week old Australian miniature elf goat. Link to standards: http://www.australianallbreedsofminiaturegoatsociety.com/elf-goat
She was bought and was malnourished and this has stunted her growth :/ I'm hoping she will catch up with time  
What do you think of her?


----------



## Bree_6293

Sorry pictures didn't work :/


----------



## CrazyDogLady

Holiday Cookie, I'm sending my deposit for her tomorrow.







and







The breeder said the pic of her udder was after she'd been milking awhile. Her dam is a Grand Champion, and I can't pick her up until after her DHI testing is done, but I'm excited. This will be the first registered animal for me, and I feel super lucky to have gotten her from a well known quality breeder. She'll be coming to me bred.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Since no one is offering to mention anything concerning these two girls, I will now take this task upon myself :lol:

*Bree's girl:*
She's still a bit young to really tell anything about her, but this is what I see right now:
-She's super cute 
-Nice head
-Good brisket
-Good straight legs & pasterns
-Long body
-Good topline
-Nice angle in back legs

~Rump is a bit short/steep
~Would personally like to see back legs not quite so angled

But, all of this can change REALLY quickly with kids  She's sure cute though!

*Holiday Cookie:*
Pros:
-Nice lean neck
-Sharp withers
-Neck blends nicely into shoulder
-Neck blends nicely with withers
-Good shoulder assembly
-Good chest floor
-Shoulder blends nicely with heart girth
-Good depth in heart girth
-Strong topline
-Long topline
-Good body capacity
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-Hindquarter looks strong
-Overall good dairy character
-Nice width in hocks
-Level thurls
-Good width between thighs

Cons:
-Lacks brisket
-Front legs are a tad weak
-Rear legs are cow hocked
-Rump is steep
-Rump is short
-Hooves are overgrown and long, leading to weak knees
-Pasterns look weak
-Bone could be a bit finer
-Toes out in front

Udder:
~Nice sized teats
~Smooth, symmetrical udder
~Level udder floor
~Good medial
~Nice fore attachments

-Teats could be a bit more centered
-Rear attachments could be a bit better

I'm not too good at udders, so will leave it at that  She's a pretty doe, and I like her udder. But she needs some hoof help.

Is she a Lamancha or a Mini-Lamancha?


----------



## CrazyDogLady

She's a ND from DesertNanny. I'll do her hooves when she gets here. Your comments about her feet made me look at my two adopted goats. Going to learn from them tomorrow.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

CrazyDogLady said:


> She's a ND from DesertNanny. I'll do her hooves when she gets here. Your comments about her feet made me look at my two adopted goats. Going to learn from them tomorrow.


Ohh, what happened to her ears?  Looked up DesertNanny....wow, they have some NICE goats!
Holiday Cookie's sire is a nice looking boy. And I must say, I really like her dam!
The buck she's bred to, his parents look good too.
I'd say got a really good doe there!


----------



## CrazyDogLady

Thank you. I'm happy to get her, and the owner has been great to work with. I've been ogling those goats on her website for awhile.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

This thread is dying! It's crying out for help :lol:

So here's a young doe for you all to critique. I can't since she's mine  I'm also not going to say what breed she is. Her name is Susie, and she's about 6 1/2 months old here.


----------



## COgoatLover25

Say, that wouldn't be a Saanen/Nubian would it CPK?


----------



## dreamacresfarm2

I have some I would like critiqued too ?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

COgoatLover25 said:


> Say, that wouldn't be a Saanen/Nubian would it CPK?


Nope  You've got a good memory, remembering that I've got a Saanen/Nubian though 



dreamacresfarm2 said:


> I have some I would like critiqued too ?


Feel free to post 'em! Maybe that will wake folks up here


----------



## Dairy_goat

Could you critique my doe? Thanks!


----------



## nicolemackenzie

She's nice and deep and has good body capacity and looks solid and strong in general. I like her front end.

She is short bodied though and her rump appears short and steep.


----------



## dreamacresfarm2

Here is Tawny Faye - Lamacha (grade) 6 months old - I know my picture suck - I had no help and a unhappy girl


----------



## dreamacresfarm2

bump


----------



## margaret

Dairy_Goat, I'l start with your doe. I need to stay in practice, I haven't done this in forever!

Mini Nubie, I'm assuming?
Cons:
~posty in the rear legs
~a bit thick in the neck
~More dairy, lean neck
~Longer neck
~I'd like to see her tighter and smoother in the rear end
~Straighter, cleaner, better placed front legs
~Rather short bodied

Pros:
~Wide jaw
~Strong jaw
~Well sculpted nostrils
~smooth neck
~uphill
~smoothly blended from neck into withers
~smoothly blended from neck into shoulders
~tight and smooth in the front end assembly
~strong chine
~Strong topline
~Level topline
~strong rump
~Level rump(for a mini Nubie:lol
~looks fairly strong in the rear legs
~Good body capacity
~Good depth of heart girth
~Good depth of barrel
~Good depth of rear barrel
~


----------



## Dairy_goat

Lol! She is a half mini nubian and half fainting goat! You basically guessed right! All of our kids look like the does and not the bucks! Why I am keeping her is because she is cute, not necessarily for her conformation (her udder isn't the best when she is in milk!!)..lol (and because my mom will not let me sell her!!)


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

It finally paid off! :lol: I waited and waited, and FINALLY Margaret showed up! Cause she hasn't done any critiquing in like, FOREVER  

Tawny Faye:
Sorry, but her pictures are hard to critique 

-Nice topline
-Nice shoulders - well assembled and balanced
-Good rump length
-Nice width in face
-Nice angle in back legs
-Good strong pasterns
-Nice barrel, good depth
-Good body length
-Nice even width in rump
-Nice spring of ribs


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Bumping! My girl hasn't been done yet


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Here someone do Chubby Butt after they do Megans doe :lol: These photos really didn't do her chubby-ness justice, her whole front end and armpits jiggled when she walked :ROFL:
ETA: Forgot to mention she was 2.5 months in the pics.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Wow, she's got some nice lines, Lacie! Real nice looking girl.

I'll leave her for now, hoping that someone else will do her first


----------



## margaret

I'll do Chubby
Cons
~more brisket
~Not much body capacity
~Lacks depth of barrel
~Needs more depth of heart girth
~maybe a little stronger and straighter over the topline
~Neck is too chubby:lol:
~Maybe a little smoother in the shoulders
~Longer rump
~needs to be more uphill
Pros

~Very long bodied
~Level topline
~Fairly Level rump
~long neck
~sharp withers
~Clean withers
~Smoothly blended from neck into brisket
~OK blending front end assembly
~straight front legs
~Strong front legs
~well set front legs
~nice angulation to rear legs
~Strong pasterns


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I need new pics of her, she looks like a blob :ROFL: She looks like a cat when she lays down, no definition of a body at all :slapfloor: She's a lot more filled out now too (granted, mot of it is outwards :lol: ), she was only 2.5 months in the pics


----------



## margaret

2.5 months?? Holy crap, she's huge!
I wanna see a current picture.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Me too! I wanna see a recent picture, and critique her as well :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Whoops, no, rechecked the date it was taken, she was 3 months, _huge_ difference :lol:


----------



## Bree_6293

I know this one is young but just wanting opinions on her. I think she is real nice, but maybe it's because she is mine? So want to hear others opinions


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Awww, look at that widdle baby face!  She's got boots on!

Pros:
She's got boots
She's got an ADORABLE face
She's got a super cute blaze
She's got adorable curly hair

Cons:
She's not with me

:lol:

Okay, I'm guessing that's not the critique you wanted 

Anyway, she's got a nice level topline, good brisket, nice length, nice strong legs. But again, she's really young


----------



## Emzi00

I'm going to do chubby butt, since Lacie is finally back.

Cons:
Could use stronger pasterns
Would like a longer rump, could be more level too but acceptable
I'd like more extension of brisket
Would like to see her deeper into the chest floor, on back into the girth
I kinda want her neck to be a touch leaner and longer
She needed copper 

Pros:
Nice straight front legs
Decent amount of angulation to the rear legs
Smoothly blended in the front end
Neck blends smoothly into the withers, and from there on back into the chine and loin
Good width between the hocks
Looks to have good depth into the chest floor
Looks to have good spring of rib
Good length of body, well proportioned
Feminine about the head
Thurls look good
Pretty color :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

:lol: Yeah I don't know what happened with her tail for a while there, I never did give her copper and it grew back. Her color got dark on me though  Her darker color is now like a chocolate instead of tan, which all I have to say about that is BOO!! :lol:
But anywho, she's pretty equal with her mom I think


----------



## Emzi00

Lol Lacie I still have no clue who any of your kids are out of :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

She's out of Babs :lol:


----------



## margaret

I haven't seen you in a long time Emma!
Anybody want to do my yearling? I had her done last fall but I think she's improved a lot in the last year.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Yippee! We got the big gals back!

Anyway, Margaret - pretty girl! Who is she? A straight on picture would help 

.....I'll do her IF you'll do my girl on the last page....


----------



## Emzi00

Okay Megan, I don't know exactly what to look for in a kiko(I'm assuming?), lol, but she looks smoothly blended throughout, lots of power in the front end, nice legs, good depth into the barrel, and a long rump. Although her topline seems strong, I'd like it more level, and for her to have a bit more length of body.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Emma guessed right! Yes, she's a registered, 100% New Zealand Kiko doeling.

And thanks! I really like her. Her back legs are growing faster then her front legs at this point...so her topline is even worse now  But she's such a sweet girl.


----------



## Emzi00

Okay you should do Margarets doe now, I'm done for today :lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Oh, okay :lol: I'll do her tonight


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Okay:

Pros:
-Good neck length
-Lean, feminine neck
-Good shoulder assembly
-Clean front legs
-Straight front legs
-Strong front legs & pasterns
-Nice depth in heart girth
-Smooth topline
-Strong topline
-Good body length
-Barrel blends nicely into hindquarter
-Well assembled hindquarter
-Long rump
-Nice angle to the rump
-Strong back legs
-Strong rear pasterns
-Nice angle to back legs
-Good width between hocks
-Nice bone length
-Feminine appearance
-Good dairy character
-Chest floor looks good
-Long bone pattern
-Strong chine

Cons:
-Neck could blend into withers better
-Neck could blend into shoulders better
-Pasterns a bit long
-Shoulder could blend into barrel better
-Could have more depth in barrel
-Looks like she lacks rib spring
-Looks like she toes out in the rear a bit

Okay, I feel like I'm missing some things :lol: Someone else want to try?http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Emzi00

The picture is kinda blurry, and not a good angle to see her front end, so take this with a grain of salt. :lol:
It looks like she toes out in all four, I'd like a longer rump, angle is fine but not board level like what will win at shows, she looks kinda pinched at the girth and lacks depth into the rear barrel. Not a bad doe at all though, show me again when she has an udder.


----------



## margaret

Thanks
I was planning to sell her but I she did improve a lot over a year so I figured I'll see what kind of udder she freshens with. If it's anything like her dam's I'll be pleased.


----------



## Emzi00

Alright someone do Billie, pictured as a two year old FF.


----------



## margaret

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Yippee! We got the big gals back!
> 
> Anyway, Margaret - pretty girl! Who is she? A straight on picture would help
> 
> .....I'll do her IF you'll do my girl on the last page....


Merry Oaks Royal Empress, my only purebred doe kid from 2014.


----------



## margaret

Cons
~stronger pasterns
~more angulation to rear legs
~stronger front pasterns
~more brisket
~thurls could be set a little farther back
~Sharper withers
~Smoother withers
~More depth would be nice but she's still young so that should improve with age
~Needs more udder capacity 
Pros
~long clean neck
~lean neck
~uphill
~strong topline
~smooth topline
~fairly level rump
~OK length to rump
~strong front legs
~Straight front legs
~level topline
~good width between hocks
~Squarely set strong rear legs
~Strong fore udder attachments
~good rear udder

I know that was short but I'm tired, after all it is a Sunday evening you can't expect too much out of me:lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Pros:
-Nice strong jaw
-Wide nostrils
-Clean throat latch
-Long neck
-Feminine neck
-Clean, dairy neck
-Neck blends nicely into withers
-Neck blends nicely into brisket
-Neck blends nicely into shoulders
-Nice shoulder assembly
-Good chest floor
-Clean, straight legs
-Strong front legs
-Nice pasterns, I like the angle of them
-Nice heel
-Clean, long bone pattern
-Nice sharp withers
-Uphill
-Good body length
-Nice long barrel
-Fairly good depth in heart girth
-Good dairy character
-Very refined look
-Fairly good depth in barrel. She's improving in this area.
-Long topline
-Fairly strong topline
-Good hindquarter assembly
-I like the blending from the barrel to the thigh/thurl area
-Nice clean lines
-Good rump angle
-Nice angle to rear legs
-Clean, long, straight rear legs
-Doesn't toe out in front
-Nice width between pin bones
-Good width between hocks
-Fairly good spring of ribs
-Second picture, her topline looks great!
-Lovely fore udder attachments
-Real nice rear arch
-Flat udder floor
-Great rear udder attachments
-Nice teat size



Cons:
-Lacks brisket
-The shoulder-to-withers area could be less defined, more blended
-Could be blended more smoothly throughout
-I would there to be less of a dip from her withers to her chine - it makes the topline uneven and look weak.
-Topline could be more even
-Rear pasterns look a little 'off'. She's standing kind of funny on her rear feet
-Teat placement could be a bit better


Very pretty girl, Emma! And I love the look on the Nigi's face in front of her in the second picture :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

I'm edging back into this thread. :lol: So, who needs to be critiqued? It might take me a while, but I've decided that I've been a lazy slacker on TGS lately.

Blame a pulled muscle and advanced algebra and geometry. :lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

*Notice:*
We need more goats posted to critique! People are starting to come back, but without goats, there is nothing to do 

*The other notice:*
Here's Ivy: She's around 6-7 months old.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

You could also do Susie back a couple pages...she only got a little critique


----------



## thegoatgirl

I never thought that day would come. :lol: I can provide a few for y'all to practice on, if needed. 

Ivy, I'm just going to judge like I would a dairy (in this case a mini-Nubian), as I don't know what breed she is. Also, these pics aren't the best, I'm just gonna do a little bit.

Pros:
Good width of fore-head
Good angulation of the rear legs
Fair body capacity
Nice long neck, although it is hard to tell with all the fuzz 
Rump looks to be fairy wide
Good strength in the chine
Looks to track straight in her fore legs
Fore legs are placed correctly under withers
Smoothly blended throughout
Looks to be in good condition
Good size for her age

Cons:
Toes out in the rear
Back is slightly roached
I'd like to see a slightly longer and leveler rump
Pasterns are weak
Knees are large, and fore legs are not as straight as they could be
Needs more width throughout
Needs more brisket
Elbows are almost too tight
Her mouth looks a little "off" to me; it could be the picture though
Needs more width of jaw 
Preferably, I would like to see a cleaner neck
A bit more depth of the rear barrel, although she will likely improve as she ages


Do you want me to post a few for y'all to critique?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

What day? :lol:

Thanks for doing her! She's a reg. 100% New Zealand Kiko doeling  I don't like her front legs either, hoping my buck improves that. When I got her, she had the loveliest level back I've ever seen on a Kiko...guess her back legs are outgrowing her front ones at the moment!

I think her mouth looks off because of the coloring there...the dark patch above her left knee made me think she had really hurt herself before I realized it was just colored that way :lol:


And sure! Post some  And a question: should I hang back on critiquing till some other, newer-then-me folks have done them?


----------



## margaret

You want goats to critique?
I've got plenty I can post


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

No, I want goats for YOU to critique  And Lindsey, and all those lovely newbies that aren't showing up!


But in all honesty, do you think I should wait till other people have critiqued a goat before I do? I don't want to discourage anybody from doing one


----------



## thegoatgirl

The day when we are LOOKING for goats to critique. :lol:

Okay, I'm gonna post a few. Megan, maybe do one of them, and leave the other? I think pretty much everyone disappeared.


----------



## thegoatgirl

Okay, the easier of the two, my new French doeling Cob Cottage HLL Frostbite A.I. She is three months in this photo, and throwing a very large fit. :eyeroll: Please excuse the bad lighting and nasty shadows.
She is like a mini Frosty (her dam). I don't know how I'm going to tell those two apart when she gets to be the same size; they are identical. Unfortunately, also gave them names that sound very much alike - Frosty and Rosti. Le sigh.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

thegoatgirl said:


> The day when we are LOOKING for goats to critique. :lol:
> 
> Okay, I'm gonna post a few. Megan, maybe do one of them, and leave the other? I think pretty much everyone disappeared.


Yeah :lol:

Okay, sounds good. Yeah, I think so too. Hopefully they'll come back! These threads were so fun last winter/early spring.

http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Nice girl! Frosty looks like she thinks she should be treated like a queen....and isn't!


----------



## thegoatgirl

Agreed!

LOL, yes, she does think that. The doe I posted is actually Rosti, her dam, Frosty (her full name is Hull's HJE Frosty Morning), is my profile pic.  Frosty is super-duper sweet, Rosti . . . not so much. Try bottle brat. :lol:

I will try and post more pics soon. The internet connection is very iffy right now. Be warned, it's a milking doe complete with udder pics, and I expect a full and detailed critique. :lol:


----------



## margaret

Ariella I'll do Rosti if you do Bam


----------



## margaret

Rosti
Cons:
~looks to toe out in front
~Stronger rear pasterns 
~It looks like she’s cow hocked, but it could be that she’s misbehaving
~toes out in rear
~more levelness to the rump
~Smoother blended in the heart girth and shoulders
~longer rump

Pros
~long, lean neck
~uphill
~Sharp clean withers
~good brisket for being so young
~Smoothly blended in the front end 
~Withers blend well into topline
~smooth topline
~Strong topline
~Strong chine
~good depth to heart girth
~Good depth of barrel for such a young kid
~Good length of body
~Good dairy character

I have school to do so I’m going to go ahead and stop there, she’s a nice looking girl though! Do you have any current pictures of her?


----------



## thegoatgirl

Thanks, Meg!  I think the biggest thing I would change about Rosti is her rear legs. They are kinda posty, and she needs stronger pasterns as well. 
She actually isn't that hocky (odd, since as far as I can tell both her dam and sire do), and her mammary is going to be insane, as far as I can tell. Super, super excited to see it! Expecting a gorgeous fore-udder and a good rear udder.  

I don't have any more pic of her from recently, she is one massive ball of fuzz right now. :lol: Plus, she is still trying to comprehend that no, she can't throw fits while being led. Sigh.

Give me a few minutes to do Bam


----------



## thegoatgirl

Bam!  :lol:

Pros:
Love the rump on this girl!
Looks to be fairly level over the topline naturally
Good rump width, length and levelness
Sharp withers
Smoothly blended throughout
Strong pasterns
Good incurve of thigh
Looks to track fairly straight in the fore
Fair brisket
Very feminine, almost too much so for my taste
Love the neck on this girl! 
Good length of body
Strong in the chine
Good depth of jaw
Fair bone
A very feminine head
Fair body capacity
Should have a beautiful rear-udder, it looks high and wide throughout 


Cons-
There is something off about her fore-legs, the almost seem to bow back to her rear legs
Needs more depth in the rear barrel
Toes out in the rear
Could use more width throughout
Needs more width in the nose to balance out the width in her fore-head
Could use a tad more brisket


----------



## Emzi00

I feel like adding my two cents here, I like Rosti's pasterns much better than Bam's. Both are very upright but Bam has long pasterns whereas Rosti has short pasterns, and the longer pasterns are going to be more likely to break down.


----------



## thegoatgirl

Ah, I completely missed that in my critique of Bam. :lol: Thanks, Emma.


----------



## Emzi00

Okay, here's Ellie. I'm hoping her udder will be better with a second freshening.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I surprised some of you guys remember what I taught you, I'm practically the worst teacher of things :ROFL:


----------



## Emzi00

I retain information pretty well :lol: No, you're a fantastic teacher, couldn't have asked for better


----------



## Emzi00

But also do my goat :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Aha, using flattery! I texted you on her before, I said she's pretty :lol:


----------



## Emzi00

Mom that doesn't count. :lol: But no, I was sincere about you being a great teacher, I've learned a great deal from you and I appreciate it very much.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Well you're welcome  I will critique her after at least one other person does. I nominate Ariella since she's slacked off so much :lol: (disregard the fact that I was avoiding this thread for a very long time because I didn't feel like spending 5 minutes to write anything) :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Well you're welcome  I will critique her after at least one other person does. I nominate Ariella since she's slacked off so much :lol: (disregard the fact that I was avoiding this thread for a very long time because I didn't feel like spending 5 minutes to write anything) :lol:


I hate you. :lol:

Blame the advanced algebra. And German. And Latin. And geometry.
And a pulled muscle, and tons of other junk.

Possibly.

And ignore the fact that I kinda hovered over the keyboard, biting my nails, and then decided to sit back and watch the others struggle through it all.


----------



## thegoatgirl

BTW, I'm with Emma about the teacher thing.


----------



## thegoatgirl

Ugh, give me like five minutes.

Or ten.

Or thirty.

Or a day.

Maybe even a week? Pretty please? :lol:

Haha, joking. Possibly.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

thegoatgirl said:


> I hate you. :lol:
> 
> Blame the advanced algebra. And German. And Latin. And geometry.
> And a pulled muscle, and tons of other junk.
> 
> Possibly.
> 
> And ignore the fact that I kinda hovered over the keyboard, biting my nails, and then decided to sit back and watch the others struggle through it all.


:slapfloor: Oh you love me, you know it :lol:

Pfft, that's all minuscule, I do that stuff like every day, along with astrophysics, microbiology and ethnobotany  I blame your problems on being a terrible negotiator, who takes two math classes at once, let alone one? :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

*Sighs* She sees through it every time.

Seriously, though, I think Latin and geometry are the banes of my existence. 

You're making my head hurt. :lol: I don't wanna grow up! *Pounds on floor* I don't wanna grow up!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

You guys are horrible :lol: To think you've just been hangin' out, watchin those of us who were willing to use what we learned on the first thread!

I'm wounded. :mecry: Seriously.

:lol:

I'm tempted to take a break and watch you all  Especially since SOME OF YOU have REALLY slacked off lately... ( notice I have named no names :lol: )

But, on the other hand, I really enjoy critiquing most of the time


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

thegoatgirl said:


> *Sighs* She sees through it every time.
> 
> Seriously, though, I think Latin and geometry are the banes of my existence.
> 
> You're making my head hurt. :lol: I don't wanna grow up! *Pounds on floor* I don't wanna grow up!


Dear me, sounds like we have a temper tantrum on our hands :lol: Take 5, okay? You'll feel better! :lol:
http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## thegoatgirl

Oh, Megan, I know. :lol: 

Nice hints, BTW.  Real subtle.


----------



## thegoatgirl

Ellie:

Pros
-Very feminine
-Very correct ear-set, although they could be considered a little large
-Nice straight nose
-Fair width to the forehead
-Gorgeous neck!
-Good depth of jaw
-Strong in the chine
-Good length
-Fair angle to her rear-legs
-Smoothly blended throughout most of her topline
-Good incurve to her thigh
-Very level rump
-Fair rump length
-Fair depth to the barrel
-Nice straight forelegs
-Fair brisket
-Nice and uphill
-Fairly strong pasterns
-Short pasterns in the fore
-Fairly deep heels
-Is not "hocky" at all, judging by her rear pic


Cons
-Toes out in the fore
-Toes out in the rear
-Spread toes
-Long pasterns in the rear
-Could use slightly more bone
-I would like to see a bit more depth in the rear barrel
-Needs more width throughout
-Needs to be smoother blended from withers into neck
-Would like to see more width in the rump

Mammary system
-Fair teat size
-Fair height in the rear
-Good medial
-Fairly strong attachments
-Needs more extension of fore udder
-Teats wing out
-Needs a lot more arch in the rear
-I would like to see a lot more capacity, both in the rear udder and fore
-Looks to have fair texture

I'm done. :lol: Now, what did I miss?


----------



## Emzi00

To be fair I'm a year ahead with my classes and have a social life now, so that's where I've been. :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> You guys are horrible :lol: To think you've just been hangin' out, watchin those of us who were willing to use what we learned on the first thread!
> 
> I'm tempted to take a break and watch you all  Especially since SOME OF YOU have REALLY slacked off lately... ( notice I have named no names :lol: )


I know right, these people! The audacity. It's horrible really how they can just sit back and idle while eating 5lbs of pie and cookie dough, keeping you all hanging.... :underchair: :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Emzi00 said:


> To be fair I'm a year ahead with my classes and have a social life now, so that's where I've been. :lol:


See, totally valid excuse. My excuse is since I no longer have a job I went back to college full time... soooo I'm off the hook right?


----------



## thegoatgirl

Hey, I should have just started high-school; I'm doing college level work a lot of the time now.

The ups and downs of being home-schooled. :lol:

Lacie, you ate FIVE POUNDS of dough?!? Jealous!!! :drool:


----------



## thegoatgirl

And I have a social life, too. 

It's goats....

....and goats. 

I'm really quite popular. :ROFL:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Ellie: What is the age difference between pictures 1 and 3? Her topline looks a lot better in #1, but her brisket is better #3.
I'm going with #3 for a side picture, since she looks older there.

Pros:
-Nice straight profile
-Good ear set
-Fairly strong jaw
-Clean throat latch
-Long neck
-Feminine neck
-Neck blends nicely into shoulders from the front
-Neck blends fairly well into brisket
-Fairly good brisket
-Good chest floor
-Nice shoulder assembly
-Clean, sharp withers
-Front legs placed squarely below shoulder
-Tight elbows
-Clean front legs
-Straight front legs
-Strong front pasterns
-Clean, long bone pattern
-Okay depth in heart girth, could be better
-Nice depth in middle barrel
-Okay body capacity
-Good body length
-Long topline
-Strong topline
-Nice flat rump
-Good hindquarter assembly
-Nice angle to rear legs
-Strong rear legs
-Good rear pasterns
-Good dairy character
-I like her bright, alert appearance
-Uphill
-Nice width between pin bones
-Level thurls
-Good width between hocks
-Strong rear udder attachments
-Okay rear udder arch


Cons:
-Nostrils could be broader, more open
-Muzzle could have more width
-Neck could be smoother
-Neck looks slightly ewed??
-Neck could blend more smoothly into withers/shoulder
-Toes out in fore
-Topline could be smoother
-Lacks depth in rear barrel
-Would prefer if the rear cannon bones were less fine
-Could have more width in chest
-Looks a little slab sided?
-Fore udder attachments could be better, more smooth into belly
-Teats are too far to the sides and too large


P.S: I didn't change anything after I read Ariella's post...and I see I missed somethings!


----------



## Emzi00

Ariella, you were right about the udder texture for sure, she milks down to nothing too. I'm not quite sure what happened but she freshened a lot better than that and then that's what she was like when I dried her off. I think she just needs more capacity and to produce more. The main thing I don't like about her is her lacking width, but my buck is quite wide throughout so hopefully we can improve on that.


----------



## Emzi00

The first picture was the end of May, the third was mid August. Both as a yearling FF


----------



## thegoatgirl

Oh, yeah! :applaud: :razz:

Celebration over, I'm sure there is twice as much that I missed. :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Out of curiosity, how much does she produce?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

thegoatgirl said:


> Oh, Megan, I know. :lol:
> 
> Nice hints, BTW.  Real subtle.


I know! I was great, huh? :lol:



Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I know right, these people! The audacity. It's horrible really how they can just sit back and idle while eating 5lbs of pie and cookie dough, keeping you all hanging.... :underchair: :lol:


Sheesh, I know! It's crazy :lol:

I did make cookies today...chocolate chip and molasses. But I didn't each 5lbs of dough :lol:

Are you two trying to out-do each other with excuses? :lol: It's not working 

Cause I don't feel sorry for either of you :lol: I've got a life too, with goats, and rabbits, and soap, and herbs and, and, and...see, I can do it too! :lol:

http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Emzi00

thegoatgirl said:


> Out of curiosity, how much does she produce?


She peaked around 7.5# but to be fair she was a very immature yearling, I dried her off earlier and she's bred to kid last so hopefully she will put more weight on and do better next year.


----------



## thegoatgirl

Oh, yeah, a master. :lol:

I want dough. 
I'm practically drooling right now. Sad, but that's what a life of broccoli and pasta can do to you. 
STOP MENTIONING food! You're driving me insane. :lol:

I suppose. :lol: We all have good excuses, though.


----------



## thegoatgirl

Nice!  I'm curious to see how she matures. She comes from some nice consistent lines.


----------



## Emzi00

You'd think her dam would be impressive being a RWH doe, but no she was disappointing :lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

poor girl! Broccoli and pasta, how sad. You said mention food? Okay!

Last week I made the most amazing coconut macaroons. They were GREAT! And homemade chocolates...

Oh, dear, I do believe I read that wrong! ***re-reads and see the "STOP"*** Sorry :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Emzi00 said:


> You'd think her dam would be impressive being a RWH doe, but no she was disappointing :lol:


That sucks. Although, I can kinda see a little bit of her build in some of the RWH does/bucks on her dam's side.

Megan, I'm warning you....


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Oh yeah? :lol:


----------



## Emzi00

So I've learned to make no bake cookies :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

I can threaten you viciously with a carrot from behind my screen. :ROFL:

Sigh. My parents went paleo, and essentially put us all on a diet. I've been gorging myself on chocolates at every opportunity.

Very impressive, Emma. :lol:


----------



## Emzi00

I've been eating tacos for the last three days............


----------



## thegoatgirl

Ew, three days straight?! As in, that's all you've had to eat?


----------



## Emzi00

I think I had a brownie one day.... :lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Oh, I'm so frightened! :ROFL:

Paleo...that is hard. I'm GF and that can be tricky. But at least I've got the hang of baking GF, and can now make super good treats  Like the before mentioned sweets. :cake:

I'm sure I've seen paleo snacks that look good on the web, particularly Pinterest...maybe you could find some delish treats http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Emzi00 said:


> I think I had a brownie one day.... :lol:


What amazing variety, Emma! :lol:

http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Emzi00

So who scared my Lacie away? :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Emzi00 said:


> I think I had a brownie one day.... :lol:


:drool:

Megan, yeah, it has been .... interesting to see them pick out food for the family. I probably don't help matters, considering that I'll eat the equivalent of two pizzas per meal.

What? I'm on gymnast, I burn tons of calories and such. :lol: I've actually been trying to gain weight, any tips on that?

There are some fairly good treats out there, but they seem empty somehow. :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Emzi00 said:


> So who scared my Lacie away? :lol:


Don't look at me...

*Whispers* It was probably my horrendous critique...


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Uhh, stop working? :lol: But seriously, I'm not sure 

Yeah, that happens a lot when starting some new diet. It's nasty! Especially when you think back to what you used to eat. After awhile you get over it though 

***whispers back*** maybe, but I think we made her hungry :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Yeah, good point. :lol: I'm almost six foot and only 110, and have been trying to stuff myself with fats and proteins as much as possible. 

:ROFL:
She's probably eating cookie dough. :drool:


----------



## Emzi00

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> ***whispers back*** maybe, but I think we made her hungry :lol:


This is most likely :slapfloor:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Is it sad that I'm jealous? :ROFL:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Hmmm, that is a real problem. I'm afraid I don't have any hints for you, sad to say


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Nope. You have a totally legit reason!


----------



## thegoatgirl

Okay, self-pity fest over. :lol: Are we out of goats again? I can't post any because as soon as I do try the internet dies. :GAAH:

This kinda turned into a chat thread, too....


----------



## thegoatgirl

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Hmmm, that is a real problem. I'm afraid I don't have any hints for you, sad to say


No worries!  As far as I know, I'm doing all I can, so hopefully with a few long breaks and plenty of fattening, unhealthy foods I'll gain some weight.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Yeah, where are the goats? We lost them among all that talk :lol: 

Agreed. It did turn into a chat thread...BUT we're over 50 pages long now!


----------



## thegoatgirl

I finished my assignment. :lol:

*Gasps* What an accomplishment!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

What assignment? Missed that tidbit of info :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Emma's doe, Ellie.  You did her, too, I think. 

It looks like I gotta run. Hopefully not, but if I disappear, I'm not ignoring you. :laugh:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

I've got to go to, so it works out well


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I is back :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Here critique Babs :ROFL:


----------



## thegoatgirl

After we all leave. :lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Yeah, after we all left! :ROFL:

Okay, uh, Babs.
She's super cute, super crazy, and super itchy :lol:
She doesn't know a thing about goat etiquette, which saith "thee shall not rub thy head in the dirt" :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

^ CPK, rofl!


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

:lol: 

So Ariella, where is this milker that you were going to post?


----------



## thegoatgirl

Uhhh, not here yet. My internet goes bonkers whenever I try to post her. :sigh:


----------



## Emzi00

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Here critique Babs :ROFL:


She has a nice barrel :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

:lol: Wonderful critiques guys! :slapfloor:


----------



## Emzi00

Okay mom do my goat :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

BTW, it was this doe, if anyone wants to venture out and do her. :lol:
http://cobcottagealpines.weebly.com/cob-cottage-hkoh-enchanted.html

I've given up on uploading anything. :sigh:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Emzi00 said:


> Okay mom do my goat :lol:


:shock:... :lol: But.... you got such thorough critiques from the other two..... must I?


----------



## thegoatgirl

*Gasps* Mine?! Thorough??? I am honored. :lol:


----------



## Emzi00

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> :shock:... :lol: But.... you got such thorough critiques from the other two..... must I?


Shhhh.... I care about your opinion the most..... :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Now I'm just insulted. :lol:

Nah, Lacie's definitely best at this.


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

:lol: Fine, but can I go make a pie first? I have whip cream and no freaking pie :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Yes, yes, go and make a pie. And then somehow share it with us.  :lol:


----------



## Emzi00

Not unless it's a chocolate silk pie  :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Yum!!! :drool:


----------



## margaret

Wow, you guys did turn this into a chat thread:lol:
I would have joined you but we had people over last night so I couldn't
Anyway, I'm assuming the reason you made this a 54 page thread talking about food is because you actually are desperate for goats to critique
And I'm also assuming that you are all planning to come back ready to do more critiques because you had so much fun yesterday.
So here ya go...and since I'm no good at critiquing anyway I'm going to let you slackers do it all
Actually, I think I'll post 2 goats since I have so many willing volunteers...
1st is Twist





















And Tokyo, I think I may have posted her earlier but no one did her.


----------



## Emzi00

So I want Lacie to do my goat before I do more, but I will do your does later Margaret.


----------



## margaret

Yay, thank you Emma


----------



## Bree_6293

Would it be ok if I try one? I have been reading this thread for a while trying to learn more..


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Absolutely! Fly at 'er, Bree! And have fun


----------



## MoonShadow

Anyone want to critique my Does? I know they are not the best pics, but until spring comes and they can get a good shave and I can find someone to take pictures while I set up, I'll have to settle with these.:sigh:
I Think I'm getting pretty good at figuring out whats good about them and whats not , but a second opinion never hurt anyone!! :grin:

First is Janie 
second is Dandy


----------



## Bree_6293

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Absolutely! Fly at 'er, Bree! And have fun


Awesome  I will have a go at Tokyo


----------



## Bree_6293

Ok here we go. Please help me learn where I am going wrong and what I am missing!!

Cons:
Hocks come in? Toes out? In the back legs
Needs better blending from neck through wither
Needs more brisket
Slightly steep rump
Not sure on ear placement

Pros:
Nice balanced feminine head
Feminine neck
Good blending from neck through chest?
Nice top line
Good wither
Nice length in rump
Good angularity in back legs
Strong Pasterns...

What did I miss or get wrong??


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Bree_6293 said:


> Ok here we go. Please help me learn where I am going wrong and what I am missing!!
> 
> Cons:
> Hocks come in? Toes out? In the back legs Yes, in the first picture they do. Toes out slightly in rear legs in both pictures.
> Needs better blending from neck through wither Yes, and no  In the first picture she's nicely blended, second one not so much
> Needs more brisket Definitely
> Slightly steep rump Yup!
> Not sure on ear placement Controversial
> 
> Pros: All pretty much correct, good job!
> Nice balanced feminine head
> Feminine neck
> Good blending from neck through chest?
> Nice top line
> Good wither
> Nice length in rump
> Good angularity in back legs
> Strong Pasterns... Rear pasterns are, front pasterns are a bit long and she stands odd on them
> 
> What did I miss or get wrong??


Good job! It's so nice to have more people on here 

Pros:
-Nice strong jaw
-Good depth in jaw
-Broad nostrils
-Nice ear set
-Fairly clean throat latch
-Feminine neck
-Dairy neck
-Neck blends nicely into withers
-Neck blends nicely into brisket
-Neck blends nicely into shoulder
-Good shoulder assembly
-Tight elbows
-Fairly good chest floor
-Sharp withers
-Fairly good depth in heart girth
-Shoulder-barrel transition is nice and smooth
-Strong topline
-Good body length
-Strong chine
-Good depth in middle barrel
-Good depth in rear barrel
-Good body capacity
-Level topline
-Uphill
-Good dairy character
-Clean, long bone pattern
-Fine bone pattern
-Nice rump length
-Nice angle to rear legs
-Long cannon bones
-Strong rear legs
-Strong fore legs
-Strong rear pasterns
-Short rear pasterns
-Clean, long fore legs

Cons:
-Neck is a bit short
-Lacks brisket
-Front legs positioned a bit too far forward 
-Could use a tad more depth in heart girth, but just a bit 
-Thigh-barrel area could blend a bit better
-Rump angle could be better
-Toes out slightly in rear
-Looks a tad cow hocked in first picture
-Long fore pasterns
-She's standing odd on her front hooves, kind of like she has too much heel for the angle of her pasterns


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

And that was Tokyo


----------



## margaret

Thank you Bree and CPK both!
Good job Bree


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Ok dearest child of mine that I still like :lol:

*Ellie: *

*Cons:*
Ever so slight toe out on the front
Very slight spread toes in front
Feet could be better, they lack a bit of the desired shape
Could be smoother blended from the neck to brisket
Blending from the neck into the withers could be smoother
Front end assembly is just a touch too far forward for me
Could be wider in the front and in in general could be wider throughout
Lacks power in the front end assembly due to narrowness
Rump looks a little narrow
She has a rather small nose, so I would like to see more open nostrils in her kids :lol: (for breathing/health reasons)
Thurls are a bit too far back for my liking, they give her just a little too much angulation to the rear legs
She has a very fine frame, edging on the frail side
Would like to see more openness in the rib
Could be a bit cleaner in the throat and jaw junction

*Pros:*
Very feminine 
Good dairy character
Very dairy neck, nice and slender, well tapered
Very smoother shoulder assembly
Tight elbows
Straight, clean fore legs
Flat bone
Fair brisket, could use some more extension there
Good, sharp withers
Nice and uphill
Good length of body
Lone bone pattern
Strong chine
Good topline (would have said great, but it looks like she has a bump in the middle of her back?)
Decent rump length
Nice angle of the rump
Looks wide in the pins 
Good rear legs as far as far as the set
Nice width between the hocks
Great front pasturns, nice and short, strong
Rear pasturns are ok, would like them to be shorter
Nice depth in the heart girth
Very smooth in the chest floor, love her blending to the girth
Good depth into the barrel for a yearling, and very smooth blending from the brisket all the way to the rear barrel
She does lack body capacity, but I will chalk it up to being an immature yearling. I feel her capacity will come in soon because she's not that shallow bodied. 
Nice head on her
Correct bite and ears
Tail set is good
Thurls are level
Nice and refined flank

*Udder/ udder area:*
She is a bit low in the escutcheon 
Narrow in the escutcheon
Narrow arch
Rear attachments could be a bit stronger
Medial is ok
Lacks definition from the udder floor to the teats
Teats wing out a little
Teats could be more centered
Good teat diameter
Udder is halves are a bit to defined
Udder floor is even
Lacks rear depth
Fore udder looks well attached, could blend more smoothly though
Could have more fore extension 
Doesn't have the smoothest looking udder, but the texture looks good
General lack of capacity


----------



## TheGoatWhisperer

Anyone want to critique these purebred boer girls for me? Traditional is for sale so kinda curious what others think of her and if I have her priced right. She is about 90 pounds. Red girl we are keeping and is 100 pounds. They will be 6 months in about a week. Thanks in advance ️


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Sorry yours haven't been done yet, I'm more of a dairy person, so I don't know what the ABGA judges are looking for these days.

For anyone interested in dairy goat conformation, here is a power point for you. It is the same materials they use to train ADGA judges before their test on judging day. http://adga.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Pre-TCTrainingMaterials.pdf


----------



## TheGoatWhisperer

Oh no that's alright! Lol it was just for fun. If they don't get done its fine


----------



## goathiker

Structurally the traditional is better that the red. I'll let the Boer breeders look at them though.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Seems that work showed up and everybody left...:thinking:...very peculiar, very peculiar indeed


----------



## margaret

I can't critique meat goats


----------



## goathiker

You guys are going to make me do it? Savages...


----------



## dreamacresfarm2

floating around the forum is a thread for getting meat goats critiqued -


----------



## margaret

Breeze would like to be critiqued


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> I can't critique meat goats


Disagree!  I'm sure you've heard this definition of can't:
_
"Can't means: 
-you're not trying
-Don't want to try
-Refuse to try"

 _sorry._ :lol:
_
SO, I'm SURE that if you put your dairy mind to work, you could _probably _critique them at least a little :lol: 
Here's my plan: if you would like me to do Breeze, you have to strive (that word got a bit more 'umph' then try :lol to do that Traditional Boer doeling 



dreamacresfarm2 said:


> floating around the forum is a thread for getting meat goats critiqued -


Yup: it's over here: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-meat-goats-1-a-175649/
http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## margaret

Waaaah, I don't want to!


----------



## thegoatgirl

I'm just going to sit back and watch the show. :ROFL:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Well, *I* want you to! Isn't that enough? 

Where's Lacie when I need her? :lol:

Now, behave yourself, Ariella or I'll assign you the red doe :lol: on second thought, that's a pretty good idea!


----------



## thegoatgirl

Good luck with that, Megan. :lol: I'm in the process of memorizing milk records on several does. 

See, good excuse.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Hmmm, guess I don't have enough clout :lol:

What would you do that for? In my books...lousy excuse 

After some more thinking: I can go on strike! That might, _might _get some results :lol:http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Emzi00

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Where's Lacie when I need her? :lol:




Texting me... :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

A potential buyer is coming out today, and I have tasked myself with memorizing LA and milk records/results for my does' ancestors. I'm almost done, though, so give me like five or six hours and I just *might* do a goat. :lol:

Please note that keyword is *might*. :ROFL:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Nice, Emma. :lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Not fair, Emma! :lol:

Okay Ariella, you're off the hook this time cause that's a much better excuse  Hope you sell some goats!


----------



## thegoatgirl

*gulps* THIS time. :lol:

Thanks, Megan!  Me too, if I can get all my bucklings reserved before birth I will be much more comfortable with buying a new doe and buck and doing appraisal. :lol:


----------



## margaret

thegoatgirl said:


> I'm just going to sit back and watch the show. :ROFL:


But then I'll have *2* people laughing at me:ROFL:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Yes, *this* time :lol:

That would be handy  I have all my reg. Kiko doelings reserved for next year plus a reg. Kiko buckling. So HOPING I get that! The past couple years have been super bad buck years.


----------



## thegoatgirl

No, I'll just be thankful that someone else is as bad at critiquing meat goats as I am. :ROFL:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I'm trying to get all my bucks reserved too.... it um, isn't working out so well :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Yeah . ...


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> But then I'll have *2* people laughing at me:ROFL:


And? :ROFL:

http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Sorry, I think my sympathy was at a all time low there :lol:


----------



## margaret

Ah, buying new goats, what's your excuse for_ that?_:ROFL:
Good luck with this potential buyer!
I only have 1 buckling reserved, but 6 or 7 doe kids reserved so that makes me feel better.

Hold on Megan, give me a few minutes and I'll find an excuse...something should come to mind soon:lol:


----------



## margaret

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I'm trying to get all my bucks reserved too.... it um, isn't working out so well :lol:


Wish I could help you out Lacie:lol:


----------



## Emzi00

I don't want to judge goats on my phone, give me like an hour to find something with a bigger screen :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

I have none. :lol: Just this big, aching hole in my heart that cries out, "get more goats!" 

The problem with having doe kids reserved is that I always want to keep them myself. :lol:

Oh, oh, Meg, I have one: You need to double check your budget. :ROFL:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Trying to get some doe kids reserved as well.... but people are afraid of commitment :lol: Oh and I can't judge today, my day is booked. It is 10:18 and I am still in bed, the forecast for me being productive is not very bright :lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Emma, valid excuse :lol:

Ariella! You naughty girl! :lol: No excuse sharing allowed :lol: (new rule )


Oh, Lacie, you poor, poor soul :lol: What's it booked with if you're still in bed?


----------



## margaret

Yep, I have that problem too:lol:
I managed to part with ONE this year, one I tell you! And that was a Grade:lol:
I have 14 does freshening though...so hopefully I can force myself to sell a few.


----------



## thegoatgirl

Oh, I'm not afraid of commitment, Lacie. I'm afraid of my parents. :lol: It's quite possible they'll kick me out if I randomly show up with a new buck. 

Good for you. Those are the very best sort of days.  Milk it for all it's worth! Stay in bed! :ROFL:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Hey, one is better than nothing. :ROFL:


----------



## margaret

Oooh yes, good one Ariella. 
OK CPK, I've got it. 
Someone dropped off a doe today for stud service, so I have to go out and breed her, then I have to work on my science fair project(blasted school! and over Christmas break too:angry Then I have to finish cleaning the barn and THEN I have to check my budget! :ROFL: :lol:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Okay, you two...this has gotten (purposefully, I think) waaay OFF topic :lol:

Anyone remember what we WERE first talking about?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> Oooh yes, good one Ariella.
> OK CPK, I've got it.
> Someone dropped off a doe today for stud service, so I have to go out and breed her, then I have to work on my science fair project(blasted school! and over Christmas break too:angry Then I have to finish cleaning the barn and THEN I have to check my budget! :ROFL: :lol:


:faint:multiple times :lol:

http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## margaret

thegoatgirl said:


> Oh, I'm not afraid of commitment, Lacie. I'm afraid of my parents. :lol: It's quite possible they'll kick me out if I randomly show up with a new buck.
> 
> Good for you. Those are the very best sort of days.  Milk it for all it's worth! Stay in bed! :ROFL:


Parents are a good thing to be frightened of! :lol:
My dad once told me I could only have 4-6 milking does and no more...like a nice little hobby farm. Yeah, that worked out well:lol: I'm planning to freshen 19 in 2017..


----------



## thegoatgirl

Ugh, school work. The bane of any sane persons' existence. 

And I recommend you take a bath after your activities. :ROFL:

Probably, Megan. Votes for starting a chat thread? :lol: Anyone? Raise your hand, people!


----------



## margaret

I already took a shower...my mom will yell if I take a bath too:lol:


----------



## margaret

Ariella, we have a chat thread...2 or 3 actually:lol: We just don't use them:lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Hahahaha! Good one, Meg!  I will have to present this as evidence to my parents that no, goats are not evil. :lol:


----------



## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Oh, Lacie, you poor, poor soul :lol: What's it booked with if you're still in bed?


No that's the thing, that's what I'm booked with. I can't get out of here, I'm quite cozy here :lol:



thegoatgirl said:


> Oh, I'm not afraid of commitment, Lacie. I'm afraid of my parents. :lol: It's quite possible they'll kick me out if I randomly show up with a new buck.


Not you, some nut job that emailed me earlier. She was looking for something more in the ball part of a half a gallon a day milker for her tiny family.

But you don't have to get a buck


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Aaand, I can't believe I've been DRAGGED into a chat thread! :lol:

Meg & Ariella...you must have conspired. Yes, that's what it is. :lol:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Oh, I know. :lol: I meant a new chat thread, for us girls here on LCD. :lol: We can't seem to stop talking...


----------



## margaret

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Okay, you two...this has gotten (purposefully, I think) waaay OFF topic :lol:
> 
> Anyone remember what we WERE first talking about?


Nobody knows Megan:lol:

i TOLD you, we turn every thread into a chat thread


----------



## thegoatgirl

*sighs in relief* I have been forgiven! :lol: Nothing like having to be polite to the crazies that email you randomly asking for a "$150 three-gallon a day show quality registered doe with free shipping." :eyeroll:


----------



## margaret

Hey, we chat for a while, then we work. We have to take breaks now and then you know, wouldn't want to strain ourselves with too much work:ROFL:


----------



## thegoatgirl

Oh, yes, Meg.  Work destroys brain-cells. *nods head wisely*


----------



## Emzi00

If y'all want to talk, go check out my thread and talk on there and give me ideas lol


----------



## thegoatgirl

Which one, Emma? :razz:


----------



## margaret

thegoatgirl said:


> $150 three-gallon a day show quality registered doe with free shipping." :eyeroll:


I hate those people " I really want your goat but I don't have the money, will you take $100?"
Sorry, tough luck guys:lol: NO you can't have my goat for $100!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

*sigh* I give up! 'Member Meg, you were GONNA critique a BOER doeling!! :lol:

Yeah, I remember that now :lol:

Now, I don't know what you all are gonna do, but *I* am going to have lunch. Don't talk too long since you both all ALL those jobs to do :lol:


----------



## margaret

thegoatgirl said:


> Oh, yes, Meg.  Work destroys brain-cells. *nods head wisely*


Certainly, just like school


----------



## Emzi00

thegoatgirl said:


> Which one, Emma? :razz:


http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f212/creating-dairy-goat-event-182572/#post1943390


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## Cedar Point Kikos

thegoatgirl said:


> Oh, yes, Meg.  Work destroys brain-cells. *nods head wisely*


:ROFL:

Okay, I give up! You two are officially HOPELESS :lol:

http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## thegoatgirl

They don't seem to understand that we spend hundreds of hours taking care of them. No, I'm not shipping them off so they can starve to death in your back yard. I mean, I have no problem with people who honestly cannot afford to buy an animal for $3-500 and then take care of it like they should, and sometimes give them discounts, but people who can't do either get the boot. :lol:


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## thegoatgirl

Should we transfer, Meg? :lol: I should leave to go and feed, buuuut......

Have fun with that, Megan!


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## margaret

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> *sigh* I give up! 'Member Meg, you were GONNA critique a BOER doeling!! :lol:
> 
> Yeah, I remember that now :lol:
> 
> Now, I don't know what you all are gonna do, but *I* am going to have lunch. Don't talk too long since you both all ALL those jobs to do :lol:


I was? Oh, yes I remember now, I WAS. Keyword there, WAS.:lol:
Plans change, Megan, plans change:ROFL:


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## thegoatgirl

Plans change, they do! *in Yoda's voice*

I love keywords. :lol:


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## Cedar Point Kikos

With what? :lol:

Yeah, you should...or you're gonna have a million (it's sound like at least) hungry goats to deal with!


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## margaret

thegoatgirl said:


> Should we transfer, Meg? :lol:


I suppose we should..


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## margaret

thegoatgirl said:


> Plans change, they do! *in Yoda's voice*
> 
> I love keywords. :lol:


Wonderful aren't they?:lol:


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## thegoatgirl

*sighs* I wish. No, I have a bottle brat to feed and a doe to worm and five sets of hooves to trim. :lol:

Off I go to Emma's thread... See you there, Meg!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

I said WERE, Meg! :lol: Huge difference :lol:

WAS WASN'T my keyword :lol: Neither was PLANS CHANGE


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## margaret

thegoatgirl said:


> I should leave to go and feed, buuuut......


I ran out of feed yesterday Poor hungry goats will have to survive on hay until tomorrow:lol:


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## thegoatgirl

They're going to hate you, Meg. :ROFL:


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## margaret

They tried to murder me when I entered their pen empty handed:lol:


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## thegoatgirl

You know, it's kinda weird that whenever we show up a single thread stays at the top of the list for hours on end. :lol:


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## margaret

We make the forum feel alive:lol:


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## margaret

thegoatgirl said:


> You know, it's kinda weird that whenever we show up a single thread stays at the top of the list for hours on end. :lol:


What a coincidence!:lol:


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## nicolemackenzie

Traditional ( I like better)
Pros
Strong wide chest from front
Feet squarely under her
Looks solid 
Nice pasterns

Cons
Toes out in front 
Shoulders could use more muscling 
Better brisket 
Longer rump

Red doe
Pros
More level 
Good shoulder muscle
Nice muscled neck 


Cons
Narrow
Weak legs
Toes out
Short ?


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## Bree_6293

View attachment 101566


Any one wanna do my girl? 5 month old Australian miniature elf goat.


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## Bree_6293




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## Darlaj

Bree I am in love with your elf! 
Just sayin


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## Bree_6293

Darlaj said:


> Bree I am in love with your elf!
> Just sayin


Thank you  we love our little girl. Her name is phoebe iras we all call her flea


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## COgoatLover25

Bree_6293 said:


> View attachment 101567


This one is adorable&#8230;I want lol

Ok peoples, lets move this thread along.:shades:


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## Cedar Point Kikos

***Blows the dust off the thread***

Wow, ya all, I had to go back to page 56 (!!) to find a picture of an actual goat!

Anyway, here goes nothin' at trying to bring a dead thread back to life!

*Breeze: Page 56, post 553. Margaret's Alpine Doe:
*
Pros:
-Nice depth in muzzle
-Nice width in forehead
-Good jaw length
-Good jaw depth
-Nice ear placement
-Bright, alert appearance (kinda like she's looking at a treat and takes off in the next picture :lol
-Clean throat latch
-Clean, feminine neck
-Fairly good neck length, could be a tad long to balance out her body
-Good dairy neck
-Neck blends smoothly into withers
-Neck blends smoothly into brisket
-Neck blends smoothly into shoulder
-Good brisket
-Fairly good chest floor, could be a tad more level
-Clean withers
-Good shoulder assembly
-Front legs placed squarely below shoulders
-Shoulders blend smoothly with barrel
-Strong chine
-Fairly good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in barrel
-Long topline
-Level topline
-Strong topline
-Good body capacity
-Good body length
-Good dairy character
-Smoothly blended throughout
-Nice rump angle
-Clean long bone pattern
-Nice angle to rear leg
-Strong front legs
-Strong fore pasterns
-Short fore pasterns
-Good foreleg bone
-Good breed character

Cons:
-Neck could be a tad more level
-Chest floor could be a bit more level
-Withers could be a bit sharper
-Could use more depth in rear barrel
-Rump could be a bit longer
-Face is a tad dished
-Could be more uphill
-Hindquarter could use a bit more power
-Hocks and pins off
-Rear pasterns too upright - above her hooves is bulging out
-Rear legs a bit too refined for my liking


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Okay! Now someone else's turn 

If I missed anything, its cause I haven't critiqued in awhile :lol: That's my excuse


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## margaret

Yay Breezie got a critique
Thanks Megan!
Now, somebody post a goat and I'll do it!
I'm soooo out of practice!


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## Goatzrule

:anyone:


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## Bree_6293

This one? It's hard to see so maybe no good as his black blends in with my black pants :/ he is a one and a half, first cross mini boer (does have some Nubian in him)


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## Bree_6293

Oh this one will be better. 8 year old Australian mini goat doe. Can see her a lot better.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Uhh...Margaret! I did the last doe so now it's your turn! :lol: You were JUST sayin' how out of practice you were, 'member 

So here's your chance


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## margaret

Yes, yes I know:lol:
I'll do her sometime today


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## margaret

OK Bree, here goes...

Cons:
~Leaner neck
~Longer neck
~Posty rear legs
~Slightly steep rump
~Shortish rump
~Could use more power in the hindquarters
~toes out in rear
~Toes out in front
~Rear pasterns could be just a _bit_ stronger
~Throat latch could be a tad cleaner
~Would like to see a little more dairy character and femininity
Pros:
~well sculpted nostrils
~Clean wide nostrils
~Strong jaw
~Wide jaw
~Jaw is deep and long
~nice depth to head
~Neck blends nicely into withers
~Neck blends nicely into shoulders
~Neck blends nicely into brisket
~Good extension of brisket
~Smoothly blended in the shoulders
~Smoothly blended from the shoulders into the barrel
~Smoothly blended front end assembly
~Sharp withers
~Smooth clean withers
~Smooth topline
~Strong topline
~strong chine
~Fairly level over the topline
~Nice depth to heart girth
~Good depth to rear barrel
~Good body capacity
~hocks parallel with pins

And...I must go now:lol:
Bye! :wave:


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## goatygirl

This is of her first freshening a week before she kidded.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Folks, I am NOT going to be the one critiquing all these goats :lol:


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## margaret

Hey, see how I did that one?:lol:


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Yes, I did see :lol: But where is everyone else? :anyone:


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## COgoatLover25

I'm thinking we might try starting a new thread with set standards of the way a goat needs to be setup for judging. I think we were getting too many "not good" judging pictures and everyone got bored, tell me if I'm wrong but that's just the way it seems to me.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

You do have a point there...this one is fairly long and has a lot of "chat thread" (hmhm, Margaret & Ariella ) thrown in. But then again, it is still winter most places and most goats are not looking their best so people don't post them for critiquing.

But put links to the this thread and the last one, if people want to read or at least look through them...

Margaret? Ariella? Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?


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## nicolemackenzie

Fresh start would be nice with a sticky with photos of nicely set up animals and instructions and maybe the pictures of the different LA categories showing posty verses sickle etc?


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## margaret

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> You do have a point there...this one is fairly long and has a lot of "chat thread" (hmhm, Margaret & Ariella ) thrown in. But then again, it is still winter most places and most goats are not looking their best so people don't post them for critiquing.
> 
> But put links to the this thread and the last one, if people want to read or at least look through them...
> 
> Margaret? Ariella? Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?


 It was Ariella's fault not mine, she turns everything into a chat thread:lol:
And I think I remember you talking about food some pages back:ROFL:
But sure, I think a new thread would be a great idea!


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## margaret

COgoatLover25 said:


> I'm thinking we might try starting a new thread with set standards of the way a goat needs to be setup for judging. I think we were getting too many "not good" judging pictures and everyone got bored, tell me if I'm wrong but that's just the way it seems to me.


I agree That would be a good idea. I actually enjoy critiquing goats that are set up!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

margaret said:


> It was Ariella's fault not mine, she turns everything into a chat thread:lol:
> And I think I remember you talking about food some pages back:ROFL:
> But sure, I think a new thread would be a great idea!


You weren't supposed to remember that! :lol:

Okay, the vote is in. We're starting anew. Who's going to start the new one? 
I believe Margaret started both of the other ones, I started the meat one...

And is it going to be Learning to Critique #2 or what? 

http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Emzi00

I'd like to point out that a wise woman *cough* Lacie *cough* once told me that a good judge should be able to look at a goat and tell you what they like without them necessarily being set up.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Emma is right  It's more of a challenge if they're not set up


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

*cough* I may have said that once or twice *cough* :lol: 

A good way to prove my point is for you guys to set your goats up, take pics, pick the biggest things that stand out to you and go back out and watch that goat on the move with head up and head down. Those major points you picked out should still be the same without the goat being set up. 
Honestly, raise of hands here, how many of you pick your keepers without setting them up, just watching them on the move and natural stance?

Also, I'm putting my vote in again for it to be 2.0 instead of #2 :lol:


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## nicolemackenzie

In person I judge my goats on the move. What does their top line do when they are moving. Do they naturally track wide. When they stop and stand how do they naturally set themselves up. Etc. That can be hard to see in a stationary picture though. 

I still think we should start a new thread though. Will draw people in and they won't be overwhelmed going through so many posts to get to one to respond to.


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## margaret

Emzi00 said:


> I'd like to point out that a wise woman *cough* Lacie *cough* once told me that a good judge should be able to look at a goat and tell you what they like without them necessarily being set up.


Well, yeah, I suppose that's true


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## Cedar Point Kikos

My hand is up, Lacie! 

I vote for 2.0 as well


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## margaret

My hand is up!

And I also vote for 2.0


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Okay, so we're set on all that :lol:

Now, who's going to start the next one and type out rules? (just so there aren't a bunch started )


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## margaret

I'll start a new thread and you can post rules!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Rules should just be to get clear, unobstructed photos at least 5 feet away from young kids, 10-12 feet from adults, and be at the level of the goat. Photos of their front end and rear end are even more helpful, top view can also be of use..


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## margaret

Sounds good 
I think the biggest thing is the pictures being at the level of the goat. I know we need to get better at judging goats that aren't set up, but sometimes people post pictures that really don't show the goat very well and those are hard.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Aww, Margaret! You take all the fun! :lol:

YOU can cut and paste Lacie's post into the new thread.... She's got it all good and proper right there!


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## margaret

OK, I'll do that.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Yes, at the level of the goat is most important. Otherwise there's really no goat to be 'seen' :lol:


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## deerbunnyfarm

nicolemackenzie said:


> In person I judge my goats on the move. What does their top line do when they are moving. Do they naturally track wide. When they stop and stand how do they naturally set themselves up. Etc. That can be hard to see in a stationary picture though.


See, I have trouble with this. My favorite girl has a great topline and glides when she's walking, and then when she stands still or grazes her butt is up in the air. 

What does "track wide" mean?


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## Cedar Point Kikos

I know what you mean! Two of my girls, Kezzi and Daisy look great in person, but horrible in pictures 

Wide track means how their feet track...are their tracks close together or when they're walking do their tracks go a nice distance in width from each other?


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