# Convincing goats to forage?



## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Hey all I'm brand new here and I've looked, but if this has been answered already sorry for asking twice. Oh and any typos I'm blaming on one of my new alpines I'm sitting in the middle of the woods with my heard yping this and my 3 week old doeling is being extra lovable (pesky).

I have 10 does and 12 kids right now. They are a mix of angora, Nigerian dwarf and the three newest are the alpines. All of them had only known a barn and small paddocks with little to no opportunity to forage before I got them. I have 5 acres of dense Forrest and wetlands. There is plenty to eat out there and I've slowly been carving it up into 1/4ish acre fenced areas.

I dont call them pastures because there is very little grass. It's all brush and let me tell you its dense. It takes me several days with a chain saw and brush cutter just to clear a path to put up a few hundred feet of fence.

Here is a cleared section.









And before me or thr goats have gotten to it.








My problem is the goats will stand at the gate where it is picked bare and cry and be hungry. If I drive them back in a bit deeper they'll eat but within 10 minutes they are constantly trying to get past me so they can cry at the gate.

I dont have the time to stand out with them all day. Who does?

To answer some prelim questions. We are milking the moms in the mornings. Next week we start weaning and twice a day milking. They get some beat and alfalfa pellets on the milk stand and only a small amount of hay at night.

The babies are all round and fat and growing but the moms are skinnier than I'd like.

Do I need to chop up the pastures small and rotate more frequently? My goal is to get to 2 week rotations in 8 pastures. But right now they are spending about 6 weeks in only 3 (I'm finally finishing number 4 tomorrow)

Is there some other way to train them to forage? I could commit more time to them during the day if I new it was only going to be for a few weeks.

Any other tips or advice?

Thanks.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

Hmm, this is a bit strange. A goat who doesn't eat in sight. Need to get me some of them! Honestly, I would just close them in there and get out of sight. Some of mine will occasionally want to get back in the main pen even though there is nothing to eat. After about an hour they give up and go eat. Maybe you could bring some grain out there put a couple piles as far away from the gate as you can. While they are eating it make a run for it and get out of sight and watch from a distance to see what they do. If not all you can do I guess would be to go out there every day with them. Stay until they go back in. Hopefully every day they will stay longer and realize how much goodies you have given them to eat.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

I'm not giving them any grain for several reasons.

Mostly because of the reading I've done that talks about how grain stunts rumen development and they never learn to feed themselves on forage.

Because a large part of why we started homesteading was to get away from soy and corn fed meat.

I cant find any local GRAIN suppliers it's all processed feed or pellets and those have a large percentage of corn and soy.

As far as the trick of putting a pile of feed back farther in. I have done that with the alfalfa pellets. And I also give them produce occasionally (costo gives me about 4000lbs a week of waste produce most of that goes to the worms/compost, but the good stuff goes to the ducks and goats)

Anyways the goats will swarm the treats... but as soon as it's gone they are back at the gate...


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Two hunches I've had and I'd love feedback... 

1. I'm afraid I may not be rotating pastures often enough and they are getting bored... grass is greener and all that.

2. I have one goat in particular that is the worst about not foraging and she is also the loudest screamer (I even had to resort to a dog bark collar with minimal success)... being herd animals could sue be causing the rest to come back to the herd before they are done browsing?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I don't have land of my own, so I tether my goats on neighboring parcels. If I stay with the goats, they will cry and try to get to me. If I walk away and watch from a distance, hidden from them, all is good. You have to ignore the cries and let them learn to forage.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Another idea, cut some forage and put in their hay feeder.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I agree with dwarf dad and this is how I'd proceed. They don't know how to be away and foraging for themselves and this will take time, because you don't have an experience leader to teach them. 

Hunger is going to have to come into play here. 

For several nights, mix the hay you give at night with branches and leaves. Don't let them have any hay during the day at all, and increase the ratio of browse to hay every night.

In the morning, turn them out to browse, and do not respond to their pleas.

Be sure they have water and a salt block where they are sent to forage, away from the gate.

Don't let them manipulate you into feeding them.

Letting them go to different areas more often is fine, as they learn how to be goats.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

ScottE said:


> I'm not giving them any grain for several reasons.
> 
> Mostly because of the reading I've done that talks about how grain stunts rumen development and they never learn to feed themselves on forage.
> 
> ...


Great reasoning! Guess I should have been more specific. By grain I meant the alfalfa pellets/beet pellets whichever is their favorite. I refer to anything in pelleted form as "grains" even though they are not actual grains. Dwarf Dad had some great suggestion! Put some in their hay feeder and get out of their sight when they are supposed to be eating eventually they will forget and start to eat.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Hmmm I was afraid of this... I've done all of that.  the one noisy one starts up at about 4:30 and will scream until about 7ish when I let em up to the barn.

I've put branches in the feeder. I've stood out and pulled branches or brush for them. I put them out at 8 right after milking (where they get a few handfuls of pellets mixed with alfalfa hay to keep them busy while they are milked) and they stay out all day (unless the weather is miserable) while I'm around and working on the property I'm mostly out of sight. The first several months I would go out several times a day to show them around and get them to start eating. The first month this was necessary they'd literally stand in the middle of a full green bush not eat and cry to go in the barn to have hay... we're going on 7 months.

Now granted I've made progress I'm down to 2 bales of hay a month, which is quit a bit less than I needed at first. And the babies all seem to be foraging way better than the moms (and they aren't fully weaned yet).

They do have access to water, I haven't put salt out for them I may need to try that.

I guess the question is how hungry /skinny do I need to be willing to let them get, and is my goal of getting them to 100% forage realistic?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

ScottE said:


> is my goal of getting them to 100% forage realistic?


Probably not. Once you move them on your younger herd that has been raised with foraging will take you further to that goal.


ScottE said:


> I guess the question is how hungry /skinny do I need to be willing to let them get,


Only you know that answer. Too far and they'll dry up. Even further they won't be able to carry babies.


ScottE said:


> I haven't put salt out for them


You haven't put salt out at all? Or you don't have salt for them when they are out foraging?

Do you have loose minerals for them in the barn? I had assumed you did, but that isn't something I should have assumed.


ScottE said:


> the one noisy one starts up at about 4:30 and will scream until about 7ish


 Some goats are more devoted to what they see as the straight and narrow path to righteousness and that is what they will cling to. Depending upon her other qualities, that one may be one of the first you decide to let go to a new realm or home.

If you decide to replace her, consider buying from a breeder who practices the same type of management you need to give. In other words, look for a goat that has your standards, including knowing how to forage.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Thanks, Mariarose, yeah I've been kinda coming to the conclusion that this whole first generation may need to get replaced by babies that were raised on forage.

And I misspoke about the salt. They all have access to free choice minerals and soda in the barn. I just hadn't thought of putting a salt block out in the fenced areas with them.

As for the noisy one I've already decided to sell/freezer camp her my wife says she's a pain to milk and doesn't produce much either. We're just waiting to wean her baby and she's gone. It's a shame she's a pretty all white but basically only good as a pampered pet. Not what I need.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

It sounds like you have been doing all you can, up to the culling. Good luck with the next generation. We started out with kids, so they more or less learned with us.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

This is something that was my biggest pet peeve when I was starting to purchase goats for my herd and one I NEVER even thought to think about being a factor when I was buying. But you are a bit more in a hard spot because you are milking. I just went with tough love. If they wanted to stand around crying for food have at it but as long as there was feed to go out and find I wasn’t doing anything. Some of them took a LONG time to figure it out. What I always do though is when they come in at night is they would get their snack of hay but not a whole lot. Just enough to bring them in, fill their tummies up but will be totally gone by morning when I let them back out. That way they didn’t think that the feeder just constantly had good stuff in it all the time and they are leaving it for feed that they consider to not be as good. Also I never fully block them out of the feeders. The gate is always open. If they want to come home in the middle of the day they can and they will see nope still nothing in there. I’m not sure if your set up allows you to do that but maybe that will help.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

I had left the barn open with empty feeders for my first pasture. But it is picked BARE. It needs several months to recover... due to needing to clear wild land by chain saw I had no choice but to let them over forage it while I spent time fencing other places. So I really cant let them back in there.

And yeah I really do need to keep em fat enough to keep milking.

Here's another wrinkle to add to this the last several days they have been a lot more difficult to drive back to the barn. They all want to stop and forage on the way back because they are hungry because they spent the last 4 hours standing 20 feet away from the exact same stuff not eating crying at the gate.

I'm standing here on a Sunday morning watching them be piranhas on the side of the path 20ft away from the gate I'd like them to be behind















And trust me 50 feet behind that gate looks identical to what they are swarming in right now. But if I herd them back there they will stand in the middle of the brush and look offended at me.

So more and more I'm thinking this may be a problem of the grass being greener. And that I just need to rotate them more frequently.

Well i was planining on doing more garden beds this week and finishing up more fencing the week following. Looks like those priorities need to get swapped.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

If your way of life, or economic/food security depend upon more garden space, then do the garden space. The goats will just have to deal.

If by "soda" you mean baking soda, take that away. They don't need it, the sodium will interfere with their intake of other minerals, and you giving it will interfere with their ability to make their natural buffering compounds as they chew their cud. If you were giving a great deal of grain/concentrates, then I'd give different, more nuanced advice. But you aren't.

They do need salt, which has more chemical benefits than the baking soda does. Were this my herd, I'd not put the salt lick in the barn, but only in the browse area, away from the gate, and lead them to it when you put them out. As the Baking Soda leaves their system, they'll want the salt and be willing to move away from the gate for it.

Before my herd was closed, I would enjoy watching a new goat learn from the other goats how to forage. Eventually they learned, the herd would leave them behind and they did not like that, because I steadfastedly refused to become their company/entertainment, and they'd get hungry. 

But you don't have that working for you. People do not realize how important habit and conditioning are for successful goat husbandry. 

And inability to accept change really can happen with goats.

The one you are most unhappy with, she can teach the others to follow her in her demands... if you give in to her at all... 

If you have determined that she should not stay in your herd for other reasons, I'd move her along sooner rather than later.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Ok I'd heard some others talk about not needing baking soda, but that was a great explanation. I will give that a try.

So would you do free choice minerals in the barn at night, and a salt block in the pasture? Or only in the pasture.

My economics allow another year or two before food security off the land is a realistic goal. So the infrastructure for the goats can be moved up the to-do list.

As for the trouble maker, even though she's not the heard leader I've been suspecting that she's calling the others back before they are done browsing. Glad to see that suspicion may in fact be well founded. The wife is listing her for sale as a pet in 2 weeks (we're hoping her baby is weaned by then) and she's got 2 weeks after that before she goes to freezer camp. Honestly she's so much trouble I'm debating weather I can even sell her in good conscience.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

She may be a great producer for someone who needs a milk goat for a more confined space and who is willing to bring her all her nutrition. I can't make that decision for you, but there are many reasons to want goats and many ways to keep them.

She's your headache, only you (and your family of course) can make a decision like that. Food for yourselves is a totally legit end for her, and you know the end will be quick and merciful.

I'd give the minerals in the barn, protected from the weather, and the salt blocks out in the daytime areas to make them realize good things are out there.

There is a for sale forum here on this site.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Hmm that's a good thought. This goat was the favorite of the previous owner who liked how she milked... maybe she's a good goat for someone willing to spoil her and throw loads of grain to her.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

As I said, there are all kinds of ways and reasons to keep goats. This decision is completely up to you, but as I said, I would not put it off long, because of the effect on others in your herd.

Remember, as you clear and fence, to put branches and leaves in the hay feeder for night time accessibility (mixed with hay)


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Well then while we're on the topic what steps can I take to ensure the next generation grows up as good foragers? Do I need to just sepperate the entire first generation (or at least the laziest eaters?)

How can I ensure that the new babies aren't being taught bad habits by their moms?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok I would rotate them and see if that helps. I’m not sure what is growing out there so just something to look at look at and maybe that will help you figure out what is going on. There are certain plants that my goats will not eat until they have reached a certain maturity. Example, thistles they will eat when they are very young, once they reach a few inches they won’t touch them again. Stinging nettles they won’t touch until they start to dry out. White oak leaves they will go nuts for all the time, live oak they won’t eat off the tree but will eat the leaves when fall hits and they drop on the ground. Now I’m sure you probably have none of these things but they are examples of what I’m trying to say. So if it’s not a big deal to rotate then do so and see what happens. Look at what they are leaving behind and see if it’s one plant and is it young plants or old pants. Goats really are very interesting animals if one really pays attention to what they eat and when.
As for your offspring, if you keep being persistent you really shouldn’t have a issue with them. The does, for I’m guessing a minimum of 2 years have only ever known that feed comes from a feeder. That’s all they have ever known there for they are, I guess to a degree, brainwashed into it. And I’m not saying that rudely. When I part my goats off into different pastures to be bred they throw fits over simply not being able to sleep in their normal house. They just are not overly fond of change. Even though we go threw this every year it’s still the same thing. 
But I’ve had offspring of the pampered girls and they have been excellent does. It has just been what they have done since day 1


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

I've learned what you're talking about with saving the least favourite foods for last. They don't seem to love the salal and we have a TON of that. We've got blackberry, salmonberry, huckleberry, crab apples, cedar, douglas fir, douglas sipraea (sp?), sword ferns and probably another half dozen brush-y things and grasses that I haven't learned to identify yet. They'll eat the salal just fine along with all the other stuff, but they won't push through it when it's overgrown and they won't attack it voraciously enough to get to the goodies growing behind it.

Another thought I've had is should I be getting them to sleep out in the pasture? I've read that goats don't actually sleep that much and will continue to browse through the night. I've thought of building a couple of 3 walled shelters for that purpose. I'm not too worried about predators as the fencing I've put up is rated for bear (and we have a few) and since I've put the fences up I've haven't seen any bear signs, and I saw plenty last year when I first started on this mad project. I'd have to wait until a fall project as I simply have too much else to do. But I don't want to commit the time and money to that unless I was sure it would actually make a difference.


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## BiGully Farm (Aug 23, 2012)

I know my herd of Nigerians do not like to go into their pastures unless our Great Pyrenees are with them. Where the dogs go, the goats go. Sometimes the dogs will come back to the barn after they have checked out the pasture but they can still see the goats from the barn. The goats like the feeling of security they get from the dogs and they probably see you as their "livestock guardian" as well. I would definitely bring them back to the barn at night.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

My dogs are Huskies and veiw our goats and ducks as lunch :/ and we've had em long enough that the wife cant bear the thought of rehomeing them.

Anyways small update. A few days ago I put up about 20 feet of fence to give them access to a place they'd never been (only two sides where fenced but I was near by all day. They went nuts. Acted like piranhas all over everything.

Then I rotated them back to one of the pastures I had them in a month ago that has started to get green again. Again way more aggressive eating and less crying

Wife reports we've been getting more milk as well. Only a quart or two more but still noticeable... so I need to be rotating them every week or two instead of every month or two the way I've been forced to. Even though there is plenty of green left they are just getting bored.

My only problem now is they still have a tendency to strip everything within 100ft of the gate and then are unwilling to forage further back in... so all the pastures look like they need to be chopped up smaller. Yeah MORE brushcutting and fencing


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

ScottE said:


> My dogs are Huskies and veiw our goats and ducks as lunch :/ and we've had em long enough that the wife cant bear the thought of rehomeing them.
> 
> Anyways small update. A few days ago I put up about 20 feet of fence to give them access to a place they'd never been (only two sides where fenced but I was near by all day. They went nuts. Acted like piranhas all over everything.
> 
> ...


That is the way mine are when faced with a large amount of forage. I tether mine and I have to tether them at the edge of unforaged and foraged, and they work the edge back slowly.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Dwarf Dad said:


> That is the way mine are when faced with a large amount of forage. I tether mine and I have to tether them at the edge of unforaged and foraged, and they work the edge back slowly.


 I can't realistically tether 22 goats


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## MamaJenDSP (May 25, 2016)

I’d say that currently 1/4 ac is too large an area to achieve your goal. I’d section off small at least until you achieve the clearing you desire. This will also let you do your weekly/biweekly rotation. Also if you were to keep the smaller paddocks, you could have longer rest in each paddock (if that made sense).


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

ScottE said:


> I can't realistically tether 22 goats


Not meaning to suggest tethering, just an example of the behavior of my goats faced with a wall of greenery.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

I'm still just imagining the cat's cradle of mess of 22 goats all tangled and then staring at me reproachfully 

I had no idea a wall of greenery was going to intimidate goats. The problem is I was wanting to eventually chop up each paddock smaller so I could rotate more frequently with no paddock getting hit more often than twice a year. But the dense wall of greenery intimidates ME! I wanted them to hack through it first so I didn't have to.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I mean, the thing is, as much as goats love woody vegetation - they don't love FOREST. Their prey instincts are not designed to protect them in forest. So while they will happily eat along a clear edge or travel down an open roadway with trees on either side, trekking INTO the woods is against their nature. My herd has very free access to all sorts of open and forested area, and they get very jumpy once I lead them more than like 20 feet into the woods. That's my experience at least.

I'm glad you've figured out that a more frequent rotation is working! Things can look very green - and goats will declare nothing left to sustain them. (just ask my knee-high lush timothy pastures...)


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

So two more questions to those of you that have been following this thread. It seems that internet wisdom thinks that 4-6 goats per acre is a sustainable amount with frequent rotation (1-2 weeks) I've got somewhere around 3+ acres set aside for goats and the plan is to slowly ramp up to 10-15 milking does, plus 2 bucks and however many wethers are destined for freezer camp. 

We currently have 8 does in milk, 1 that should kid in 5 weeks (she came to us super underweight and with Clostridium) I wasn't even planning on breeding her at all but once she got healthy and full weight she got frisky, plus two more that should be bred this fall and a whole pile of weathers destined for freezer camp. two of the does are alpines, 3 are angora's and 3 are Nigerians dwarfs. We're planning on phasing out all of the Nigerians so that we don't end up with issues with huge bucks and tiny does accidentally getting together. Currently, we're maintaining weight and milk production with 2 bales of hay a month for all of the above, and more in the winter when forage is bad. I know I'll never be able to get by with less hay until I get several generations growing up on pure forage.

The bucks may end up being purely hay fed simple do to space constraints.

So my first question is does the above sound reasonable? Or am I crazy.

The second question is what size pastures should I estimate. I'll, of course, adjust those estimates based on how fast they eat through stuff in a 2 week period. But I'd like to get some feedback now so I can plan fence lines of where to chop things up.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I don't have a definitive answer to your 2 questions. I've only got the following to offer... If you've decided to not have a certain breed for any reason, phase them out sooner rather than later. No reason to spend time and money on something you do not intend to develop further.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

mariarose said:


> I don't have a definitive answer to your 2 questions. I've only got the following to offer... If you've decided to not have a certain breed for any reason, phase them out sooner rather than later. No reason to spend time and money on something you do not intend to develop further.


That's decent advice. Since they are giving me milk and the majority of their feed is coming from forage I'll keep em till winter but your right I should transition before I have to start paying to keep them again. Thanks.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Very nice to meet you!  And your typing goats!  

My first thought is that they might cry for security. Not trusting the unknown area. Maybe they are even right, in presuming there are worms, snakes, predators, toxic plants ...? And goats generally prefer dry land.

My second thought is that perhaps they simply do not understand it is allowed to go searching for food in this new area ? ... I feel like trying to first go out with nice hay and other fodder they are used to, place it here and there inside the pasture, thereafter get the goats and "accidently" let them discover it?

I do get the impression that you are their flock leader, which is very good. Maybe they do not yet have a stand-in queen to lead them when you are not around?

To get out of their sight, do not run! Then they will hear you, get alarmed, and follow! You must sneak and hide, to trick the stand-in queen to take the lead in your "absence". (See David Mackenzie's Goat Husbandry, chapter The Control Of Goats.)

When you pull down branches, you act the leader. They will continue to follow you!  Yes, I LOVE reading about your fine leadership, the trick now is to get a good stand-in queen. That screemy one might be the stand-in, only she does not act as you - and they - need for the moment. - Aha, she is going to the freezer camp, that is of course an option. Do it with love, and you will have really delicious meat! 

When foraging, my goats went out in the morning, taking a cudding rest after some hours, came home for a mid-day sleep, and then in the afternoon another 4-hour walk. No food at home, but security. (And me!)


mariarose said:


> Food for yourselves is a totally legit end for her, and you know the end will be quick and merciful..


:up:

As for breed, here I would suggest one of the endemic (and endangered) rural breeds, well adapted for "walking in the forest". I do not know what you have over there, but I suspect there is no old tradition of this really goat-friendly way of living.

If you feel you can trust aprons, it might be easier for your flock to feel secure when foraging, having several grown-up bucks with them. (And having one flock instead of two will enable you to build fences and pet goats instead of washing and filling one more water bowl, mineral bucket, feeder ...)

My belief is, that you will benefit a lot from having a nice freezer camp from the very beginning. This is the natural way to have goats! And with you, typing with your doelings, I do trust you will do the killing in a very goat-friendly way. Personally, I had a time when I did kill all the bucklings by Midsummer, because the flock got more easy-going then 

And, please! Do go on sharing your nice photos! You made my morning! Thank you!


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Here are some pics of some of my younger ones foraging now that we are weaning them.

The second generation seems to be doing a way better job of feeding themselves they stay out longer and venture deeper into the brush.

These 4 are all 3/4 angora 1/4 nigerian


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

ScottE said:


> The second generation seems to be doing a way better job of feeding themselves they stay out longer and venture deeper into the brush.


That's often the case. If you breed the ones who maintain the best on your available forage (which of course would include the ones best at hustling) then you will develop a herd that suits how you need to keep them.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

mariarose said:


> That's often the case. If you breed the ones who maintain the best on your available forage (which of course would include the ones best at hustling) then you will develop a herd that suits how you need to keep them.


Thats my hope, what is a reasonable expectation of timeline for that?
One generation, 3, more?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Definitely more than 1 generation.
Really, it depends upon what else you are trying to breed for at the same time. You can't let all other factors go out the window while you are trying to adapt your herd to your property. If you do that, then you'll find you won't have a marketable goat because other people will still want production, conformation, personality, etc.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Ps I'm totally going to brag on myself for just a minute. We have Awesome milk! Weve had several friends and family do a side by side blind taste test with our milk and store bought whole milk. I make em turn their back while I pour into two identical glasses.

All of them have said ours is better than Safeway whole cows milk. And several of them are goat owners and like our milk better than theirs.

My dad just said it made the whole milk taste like skim and he thought the store milk had an aftertaste hed never noticed before.

I'm convinced it's the feed, that I make them forage . We have bottoms of the barrel unregistered mutt goats. I know they dont come from good milk lines.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

mariarose said:


> Definitely more than 1 generation.
> Really, it depends upon what else you are trying to breed for at the same time. You can't let all other factors go out the window while you are trying to adapt your herd to your property. If you do that, then you'll find you won't have a marketable goat because other people will still want production, conformation, personality, etc.


All I'll I'm really looking for is sustainable production with minimal outside feed inputs. And I'm not too worried about resellability. (I'm leaving horns on my dairy goats so I know right there I cant sell them) I started with mutt cross breeds and Im happy to eat the ones I wont keep for milk.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

The principle remains the same. The more things it is important to breed for or against, the longer it will take to reach your goals.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I may have something you'd be interested in. I'll get pics soon. 

Oh, by the way, Salal is a value crop. Find out where the forest products shed is and sell it. Make a little money for clearing.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

ScottE said:


> Here are some pics of some of my younger ones foraging now that we are weaning them.
> 
> The second generation seems to be doing a way better job of feeding themselves they stay out longer and venture deeper into the brush.
> 
> These 4 are all 3/4 angora 1/4 nigerian


Wow, that is what goats' fodder shall look like! 

Concerning aftertaste on store milk, I think it might be from the tubes the milk is going through during the process, no matter how hard the dairies try to use good materials like glass and stainless.

PS When thinking of it, foraging might be something a kid must learn, preferably from its mother. Can you try to teach them what is edible by serving such in their barn?


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> Wow, that is what goats' fodder shall look like!
> 
> Concerning aftertaste on store milk, I think it might be from the tubes the milk is going through during the process, no matter how hard the dairies try to use good materials like glass and stainless.
> 
> PS When thinking of it, foraging might be something a kid must learn, preferably from its mother. Can you try to teach them what is edible by serving such in their barn?


I do a little and I spend a few hours a week pulling down branches and walking the brush with them, usually 15 mins here and there when I'm take a break from other work. I dont put as much forage in there feeder as I should because the time to cut it and gather it is time I'd rather spend on other things.

And yeah people sometimes ask me why I havent gotten a cow, and then they see the land. This place was made for goats and ducks. (I have 100s of little water holes all over the place) not cows and chickens. So I raise goats and ducks.


goathiker said:


> I may have something you'd be interested in. I'll get pics soon.
> 
> Oh, by the way, Salal is a value crop. Find out where the forest products shed is and sell it. Make a little money for clearing.


What is dalal used for? And what value does it have? While its native here it might as well be invasive as it tends to form monolithic cultures easily.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Feeder, thanks for the word! And thank you for "listening to your land"! I wish everyone would do that!  

Now, I fear we are back to the initial problem. You bend down branches, and the goats understand you are their leader, and follow you. At the same time, I DOOO understand you have little time, and prefer to use the short moments of leisure with nice friends, rather than cutting and carrying. :inlove:


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Someone decided to be adventurous this morning. Hes about 7 feet off the ground


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

ScottE said:


> This place was made for goats and ducks...not cows and chickens. So I raise goats and ducks


Same here!

Quick search for value of Salal (I'd never heard of it)
https://www.ecosia.org/search?q=Value+of+Salal&addon=chrome&addonversion=2.1.0


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Let me guess; the "someone" is a G-O-A-T !!!

Aha, medical use! I say, go for it!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I just read an article published in 2013, about salal being a multi-million dollar business on Vancouver Island. Mostly by migrant workers between seasons.
https://biv.com/article/2013/08/shrub-at-centre-of-bc-backwoods-black-market


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Lol wow he can come have several tons of the stuff from my place!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

And for what kind of medical treatment is it good? This is a very nice niche market!!


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> And for what kind of medical treatment is it good? This is a very nice niche market!!


The articlees that I found were about salal being used in floral arrangements as a greenery filler because it stays green for so long after harvest.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Dwarf Dad said:


> The articlees that I found were about salal being used in floral arrangements as a greenery filler because it stays green for so long after harvest.


Did you look at the search I offered?


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Did you look at the search I offered?


I got to ecosia page, and could not tell what anything was. I will try again.
Scrolled down to an Amazon link.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Dwarf Dad said:


> I got to ecosia page, and could not tell what anything was. I will try again.
> Scrolled down to an Amazon link.


OK, It was just a search engine return of that particular phrase, "value of Salal"

Ecosia is just a search engine, like Bing, Yahoo, or Google. All the profits go to plant trees around the globe to fight deforestation, that's why I use it.
ecosia.com :spam:


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

mariarose said:


> OK, It was just a search engine return of that particular phrase, "value of Salal"
> 
> Ecosia is just a search engine, like Bing, Yahoo, or Google. All the profits go to plant trees around the globe to fight deforestation, that's why I use it.
> ecosia.com :spam:


What it looks like on my tablet.


























One on top of the other


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

And I only get lists of suggestions, not being able to actually get to the home page in question.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Doesn't matter 

Salal is an appetite suppressant, both young leaves and berries. 
Tea is decongestant and helps digestive issues. 
Pulp of young leaves is astringent and healing.


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## Island Milker (Dec 11, 2018)

My goats readily eat salal. At times its one of the only forage available to them. Most of the winter its salal and douglas fir branches which fall to the forest floor.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Island Milker said:


> My goats readily eat salal. At times its one of the only forage available to them. Most of the winter its salal and douglas fir branches which fall to the forest floor.


That makes me super happy to hear I've got an acre or two that is pretty much just small and Doug fir, plus a little ceder.

Mine seem to do ok on the salal as long as they have something else to go along with it. When they have only salal left they get bored and whiney.


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## lhorning (Jun 26, 2017)

I've really enjoyed this thread. Thanks to all for the knowledge you contributed.

@ScottE are you in the Ozarks by chance?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

lhorning said:


> I've really enjoyed this thread. Thanks to all for the knowledge you contributed.
> 
> @ScottE are you in the Ozarks by chance?


Agreed. It makes me wonder about what it's going to take to get my girls to forage by themselves.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

lhorning said:


> I've really enjoyed this thread. Thanks to all for the knowledge you contributed.
> 
> @ScottE are you in the Ozarks by chance?


I'm in the Pacific northwest, in Woodinville wa.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

Just a minor update to this thread it seems that how the goats are raised makes a huge difference. My 5 oldest bucklings have been completely separated from their moms bow for over a month, and have been separated at night for 3 months. I havent given them a single scrap of feed, no hay no grain, for 2 months.

And they are fat. With a Capitol F. Like I'd suspect they where pregnant. They aren't bloated they dont cry at the gate to go to the barn and they are WAY more adventurous about going deeper I to the brush to forage.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

May we guess that learning has a great part?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@ScottE I'm wondering how your project is going, and what you ever ended up doing with that noisy white doe that was calling everyone to the gate?


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## Drmike (Jun 23, 2019)

Mine took to forage straight away.

The way I did it was to bring them forage to eat in their pen and also put them on a leash and take them for a walk through the forest

They nibble at a few different leaves

It takes them time to determine a particular leaf is safe to eat

Once they know what ones are safe they eat more of that type

I think me being there at first helped.


As they ate more on the walks and in the pen I fed them less hay

Eventually they would wander on their own but they never go very far out the gate. If I want them to forage in a new area I have to go with them


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

David Mackenzie has a wonderful description of the dance the flock queen makes if she tastes something that is not good. Go hide in a corner, Tjaikowskij and the rest, this is expressive dancing! She spits, shakes her head, spits again, stomps on it ...

But if it is good, she eats it, and after a while the rest of the flock is allowed to have a try.


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## ScottE (May 4, 2019)

mariarose said:


> @ScottE I'm wondering how your project is going, and what you ever ended up doing with that noisy white doe that was calling everyone to the gate?


I still havent gotten rid of her, almost everyday I threaten her with the stew pot, and everyday I get busy with other things and forget to take pictures so I can post some for sale listings.

Weve added a few more alpine goats to the herd, and as I stated earlier the younger goats are going great. I'm going to guess that by the 3rd generation everyone will be doing great. We're getting close to 3 gallons of milk a day on 8 milking does but over half of that is coming from only 2 of the alpines. We have 4 more alpine does that we'll breed this fall so I'll be surprised if we're not over 6 gallons by next spring.


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