# Scrapie tags



## mnspinner

Just got a phone call from a fellow breeder who purchased two nigerians from Ohio. Apparently they were at the vet for a pre-travel checkup (she drove them home to NY) and the vet put in scrapie tags. 
My friend wants them removed. First of, I don't know Ohio regulation (especially with the ongoing NAIS and other ag organizations ID programs) and she wanted to know if you have to keep the tags in when she shows them at her fair in the spring.
Secondly, what kind of tool would she use to remove?
I haven't had to deal with this, and as far as I know a tattoo and/or microchip has been all that's needed to show, at least under ADGA.
But I'm no expert so looking for answers.
Thanks.


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## Shelly

Here if the goats are tattooed they don't need scrapie tags. If they don't have a tattoo you must have the tag in to show at fair. To remove are they metal or plastic? The metal ones have a little tab you need to bend back then just separate like a hoop earring. The only way we removed the plastic ones is to cut them. I'm sure they is a different way.
Here a link to Ohio scrapie laws. http://4hansci.osu.edu/livestock/docume ... Update.pdf Shelly


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## Just Kiddin'

We are in the Scrapie program but we're in California so I don't know if it would be the same. We have to have some sort of identification. All of our Registered Nubians are tattooed so they don't have to be tagged. When my son has boer crosses born, we tag them with the scrapie tag because they aren't registered or tattooed. At our fair, you have to have tattoos on your registered goats and our market goats always have the scrapie tag.


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## sweetgoats

We are inthe scrapies program. I have had several classes on this because I am a goat leader.

This tag is to track the goats and where they were born, so they can track if any goats come down with scrapies and they can track the farm it came from. If not they would have to kill all the goats in the area. 

Lets say that I sell you a goat and you have bought goats from 5 different farms. One of the goats come down with scrapies, you know it came from ?????? but you have no proof. So the State (any State) will come in find out who you bought your goats from and go to all those farms and force them all to be destroyed. Now you did not buy that goat that came down with scrapies from me but since the tags were not in the goats they will come and demand them all to be destroyed. 
I have all my goats tagged so if they are sold there is no questions about it. I keep records of all my goats and where they go. I am not going to take a chance of someone that does not want a tag in a goats ear, and another goat of theirs come down with scrapies and me having to lose my whole herd.
If you do any shows at all anywhere in the US they have to have scrapies. 


It is a required tag in all goats and sheep (unlessthey are registered), in all states. It is to prevent from having to destroy all the goats just like they did several years ago to sheep in ????, I forgot the countyr. Please keep that tag in. If a State Vet ever comes to your place or anywhere and does not see a tag and they are not registered, they have to tag them.
It is not a big deal at all. 

If the goats are redistered and have a registration number theyn they do not have to have scrapies tag.


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## RunAround

They were bringing them into NY right? I think the law there is that all goats need to have that tag regardless of if they are registered or not. 

'Course I am bad and would cut out the tag and say they ripped it out. :angel2:


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## jordan

My mistake and my sincere apologies. 
Unfortunately there is no smiley to so show me bashing my head with a 2x4!


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## Just Kiddin'

I voluntarily joined the scrapies program. 4-H or FFA had nothing to do with it. If someone else doesn't want to be involved in that program then that's on them. At least I'll know MY goats are healthy and am willing to take every precaution to make sure of that. 

I want to know how you can claim the scrapies tags are generic? Thousands and thousands of goats WILL NOT have the same tag number. The tag isn't just a number. My herd name is registered with the USDA and printed on the tag along with my herd ID. The only "generic" part of the tag is the number of the goat (0001,0002,0003 etc.) The rest is all registered to me and me alone. That is how it is tracked. This is NOT NAIS. NAIS requires you to have a premise ID. The scrapie program does not. 

A couple of us have already stated that if the goat is tattooed or microchipped then you do not have to tag them with a scrapies tag. I too agree that this is no big deal. Why take a risk?


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## Amos

Jordan, I think some of the things Lori said pertain specifically to her state, so not all is incorrect.. Have you seen a scrappies tag before?

I have to agree with Just Kidding, the tags are not generic, we purchased a doe with a scrappies tag in her ear, I know there is a specific site for my state that you can look the numbers and letters up, and find out what herd and place they are from.


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## Amy Goatress

Hey Lynn,

Of course you know I live in Ohio, we have never had that happen before when we took goats outside of Ohio though. We're not in the Scrapies program anymore but that is more for sheep than goats though. We use microchips instead.


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## ksacres

Just Kiddin' said:


> This is NOT NAIS. NAIS requires you to have a premise ID. The scrapie program does not.


Actually, when you do the scrapie thing, you are automatically assigned a "premise id". That's the unique code on the tags. No, it's not exactly like NAIS, but is has parts of the whole.

We had to do the scrapie registration thing to sell wethers at auction.


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## Thanatos

K I just did this cause of our impending move..... If your goat is NOT registered with a society AND tattooed then they MUST be tagged.Chipped was OK :thumb: . This was per the nice USDA vet that I spoke to on the phone. Now its free and they send you the tags and the gun to put them in for FREE. The premis ID is automatic as part of the Scrapie thing.

They freek cause they have no treatment or any real way to diagnose before the animal is dead and they do a post-mortem. Scrapies is like some horrible goat AIDS or Hepatites(sp?) which is quite contagious.

Other than the initial discomfort the tags dont bother them unless(like Oreo did) they rip it off. Then you say (like I did) I am not doin that to the poor thing again. I kept the tag tho so if we have any issues on the move I can at least show it.


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## FarmGirl18

ksacres said:


> Just Kiddin' said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is NOT NAIS. NAIS requires you to have a premise ID. The scrapie program does not.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, when you do the scrapie thing, you are automatically assigned a "premise id". That's the unique code on the tags. No, it's not exactly like NAIS, but is has parts of the whole.
> 
> We had to do the scrapie registration thing to sell wethers at auction.
Click to expand...

Yes you are right, if you sign up for scrapie, they automatically give you a premise ID. So for now...I'm just staying out of it as long as I can. Which means I can't sell show wethers for 4H, but we just use them all for meat, so it works out fine for us.


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## RunAround

Same here, I stay out of all the government junk. I'm not doing scrapies, nais or premise ID. If that means I can't sell as many goats then oh well. 

I just heard of someone in NH who was having their vet test the cows for their normal stuff. Then the vet went over to the goats and proceeded to tag them all and test them for Brucellosis and what not saying it was a law. So now I'm afraid to even have my vet come out to my barn or know where it is. :GAAH:


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## deenak

I live in Iowa and my girls show at the county 4h fair. In the past all sexually intact goats had to either have a scrapie tag or tatoo inorder to be checked in by the vet. We usually take wethers so they haven't required them to have tags. Although I recently got a letter saying that ALL goats will need to be tagged this year. Not sure about why the change


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## ksacres

I didn't find out until after we had already signed up. I thought they just sent you tags and that was that, but it's not. I guess you could say we were tricked by omission.

I wouldn't voluntarily sign up for anything like that, I just wasn't educated about it and what it meant. We signed up about four years ago, before there was so much information about NAIS out there, at least that we had read.

We don't tag our registered animals, just wethers we send to auction. Registered animals can have their tattooes as their premise ID-the thing with that is that your assigned herd tattoo (mine is CK) has to be recorded as your premise ID with the state, it's exactly the same thing, without the ugly tag. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the people that are trying to get you to do what they want you to do aren't always honest about it.


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## Just Kiddin'

ksacres said:


> Just Kiddin' said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is NOT NAIS. NAIS requires you to have a premise ID. The scrapie program does not.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, when you do the scrapie thing, you are automatically assigned a "premise id". That's the unique code on the tags. No, it's not exactly like NAIS, but is has parts of the whole.
> 
> We had to do the scrapie registration thing to sell wethers at auction.
Click to expand...

I'm looking at my scrapie registration paperwork from the USDA right now. That "unique number" is called a herd ID. I got to pick that number. It says... Premise ID: N/A. 
We were not assigned a premise ID.

NAIS uses premise ID's. I have that paperwork too because we also raise registered cattle and they want me to get a premise ID. It requires wayyyyyyyyyyyyy more paperwork. They want exact measurements of your property and all kinds of other stuff. It's a big fat packet and I AM NOT going through all of that.


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## sweetgoats

Premise ID's. are NOT the same as scrapie. we have to have Scrapie tags t o show anywhere in Colorado. At the Colorado State Fair, you have to have a premise ID's to show. Matter of facet someone from another state gave a fake premise ID and they found out (how I do not know unless they check them all), but they would not allow them to show because they did not have the correct paperwork and they lied. It made a huge stink and people were all mad but they have the rules for a reason and if you do not want to follow them then do not come to our State Fair. This was for a Beef project, not goat.

The scrapie tags are for NON Register goats. If your goat is registered then the tattoo works the same. The Scrapie is not to show the lineage, it is only to show where the goat was born and to what farm, to track scrapies in the goat population. 

I guess I do not understand why everyone gets so upset about signing up for the Scrapie tags. If you are not doing anything wrong, then what is the worry. I have them because there is scrapies in all states of the US. I do not know about Alaska and Hawaii, but because they were able to trace where it card from, from the tag (Scrapie tag), they only had to destroy the goats from that farm and the farm that that the Scrapie. Other wise they would put down all the goats that the farm that had it came in contact with. If they bought form lets say 5 different farms over the years, then they would go back to all the farms and destroy them all. I would rather put a piece of plastic in my goats ear so they do not have to come destroy my goats because someone else did not want to put the piece of plastic in. It is a USDA rule that all goats and states have to follow these rules. If your vet comes to your property and see's that they are not tagged but you can prove they are registered with a tattoo and the papers then all is good, other wise they have to tag them. Now from what I have hear here in CO tat it is really only the state Vet and the sale barns that will do it or should I say have to do it.

The premise ID's saved a lot of cattle's lives several years ago. We had a storm that was so bad it shut down the Eastern plains. No one could get to the animals and they could not eat. Because they had registered and had premise ID's. they new where the animals were located and the State of CO flew with helicopters and dropped hay to them and they saved tons of cattle and another animals that they had the premise ID's. location on file. So it is good both ways.


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## ksacres

Please don't take this the wrong way, I can see what you are saying, and I thought the same thing for a long time. I had always had a "nothing to hide" attitude toward all this stuff, including NAIS, before I started reading more.

The problem, as I see it, isn't with the tags themselves, or even with a government agency knowing where you live and what you own. I'm really not into gov't conspiracy theories.

It's with what *can* happen, should an animal be tagged with your information and found to have scrapies. The state has the right to "tag and bag" so to speak, any animal in your herd can be selected to be put down and tested for scrapies. The only 100% accurate test is a brain biopsy. 

I'm not talking about the ones that necessarily come directly from your herd, either, it could be one that you sold years ago, has been housed with sheep, run through the sale barn a few times, etc. If it has *your* tag, *you* are the herd of origin. It's not a matter of not having anything to hide. It's a matter of being held responsible for things far beyond your control, and possibly having to deal with the consequences that you don't deserve.

Now, does this happen all the time-I'm sure it doesn't. But I wouldn't willingly take the risk of having my favorite/best animals put down b/c I sold a wether eight years ago that now has scrapies.


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## Just Kiddin'

Thank you Lori. I've been trying to explain that scrapies DOES NOT require a premise ID since this thread began but I couldn't seem to get that across. Scrapies issues HERD ID's not premise ID's. We have to have scrapie tags in California to show or sell unregistered/untattooed goats as well. I had no problem registering in the scrapies program either. I have nothing to hide and I would rather be safe then sorry when it comes to my goats so I completely agree with you. I don't have a problem getting a premise ID either except for allllllllllll the paperwork. We raise registered cattle too so that's why they keep sending me the paperwork for it. We're trying to get out of this state (to Colorado actually LOL) so once we finally get moved I'll do it then. I just don't want to spend all that time getting it all in order just to move and have to do it again. 

In response to ksacres......
Directly from the aphis/USDA website comes this article.....

APHIS Stakeholders Announcement
Veterinary Services April 2, 2008
New Scrapie Live-Animal
Test Approved

On Jan. 11, 2008, Veterinary Services (VS), a unit within the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, approved a new live-animal test for detecting scrapie in sheep and goats. Similar to the currently used third eyelid test, the test involves collecting lymphoid tissue. The new test, however, uses rectal mucosa biopsy, as opposed to third eyelid biopsy. Both tests can be conducted on live animals using local anesthetic.
In 2007, VS conducted a large-scale field study to evaluate rectal biopsy as a means to collect lymphoid tissue for scrapie testing. Using live, high-risk sheep and goats, the study compared the test results from rectal biopsies and third eyelid biopsies to test results
obtained postmortem from the same animals on brainstem, lymph node, tonsil and rectal biopsy. The study found that testing live-animal rectal biopsy samples is an effective means of detecting scrapie. Live-animal, rectal biopsy testing has a low rate of complications and is faster and easier than other live-animal testing methods. The study also showed that there was strong agreement in test results from multiple rectal biopsy sites in the same animal. This
will allow for repeat testing over time if needed. Scrapie is a fatal, degenerative disease affecting the central nervous system of sheep and goats. Infected flocks that contain a high percentage of
susceptible animals can experience significant production losses. Prior to approval of third eyelid biopsy, definitive diagnosis of scrapie only could be made following necropsy and examination of brain, lymph node or tonsil or by general anesthesia and collection of
lymph node or tonsil. Live-animal testing using local anesthesia provides a practical method of detecting scrapie-infected animals before development of clinical signs, which could assist producers in eradicating the disease from their flocks.


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## ksacres

Thank you for that information. It has been a while since I've done any real research on scrapies testing, last I did, the live biopsies were only in the developement phase and not approved for positive identification/diagnosis, though they were being used as a preliminary diagnostic tool, probably for data gathering. I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about the tags today. I will have to do some more looking around to decide where I stand, since my main concern was/is that I don't want to lose my animals for something ridiculous.

As for the premise ID/herd ID, what's the difference? To me, it just seems like a different name. When I got mine, they called it a premise ID at the office. Maybe it's different state by state (especially since scrapies programs are *run* by the states), but in Wyoming, they asked me what kind of animals I have, how many, how long I've had them, what I do with them, and recorded my name and address. All the same information, and even though it is in a state database, it is accessable by the national government, should they decide they want it. I, personally, don't have any problem giving that information, since I have a website, all that information is already available to anyone that wants it anyway. But some people are more private.

As I said, I have had scrapies tags for several years, and so far, nothing bad has happened. But most of the wethers I sell go to someone's dinner table almost immediately. Sad for them, but not everything born a buck should stay that way.

But yes, there are some people that don't like the government butting it where they feel they don't belong. It's perfectly ok that you are in favor of the tags, but it's also ok that some people are against them, for whatever reason(s) they may have. And I think it's important to note that not everyone that doesn't participate has something to hide, I'm sure that some people do, but they are probably not the majority. Saying that isn't likely to win any points or make people listen, especially if they already have their mind made up about it, since it implies that they do have something to hide, even though it's not how you meant it. If that makes sense.

I'm a member of a self-sufficiency forum, and some of the conspiracy theories that abound, almost make some people seem a little crazy. But, some of it, I can see where the gov't may not actually be about it's mission statement.


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## Just Kiddin'

When I registered for the scrapies program all I had to give them was my address and whether I had goats or sheep. The Premise ID paperwork is wayyyyyyyyyyyy more thorough. They want me to draw a map of our property and give exact measurements from point to point on the map. They have to know EVERY animal you own and why you own it. They want to know how much I spend in feed costs, vet bills etc. and they want to know how much I'm bringing in through the sale of the animals etc. It goes on and on and on. This packet is HUGE! They want every kind of information possible regarding ALL of your animals. I mean they even want to know if my chickens lay eggs and if so what do we do with the eggs LOL. They keep track of EVERYTHING that goes on with your farm/ranch.


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## sweetgoats

WOW Crystal. Now I understand what you were saying about so much work for the Premise ID. Not me I just called and gave them my address, told them what animals i have and that was the end of it. They sent me my number and all is good.
Matter of fact, I needed my number one day and I had to have it then, so I emailed them and they sent me the number via email in about 10 minutes. They were great.

I did not intend on sounding like because you do not have a Premise ID you were hiding anything at all. I figure for me they can come and see what I have just by looking so what the heck.

Believe me I am so darn tired of the Government getting into all the business of farmers, but I have to have it to show at several levels.


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## ksacres

Justkiddin: That IS a lot! They did ask what other kinds of animals I have, but not that much detail! I did get a census form last year that asked all that, and it went promptly in the trash.  

Sweetgoats: I know you didn't mean it that way :hug: What you said about showing is another reason some people are reluctant to sign. Making it a requirement turns a lot of people off, even people that would otherwise be willing. But it does get people that otherwise wouldn't do it, like me, since I had to have it to sell wethers, or show at the open fair shows. 

Here is Wyoming, they let you choose your tag type, I choose the really small, thin metal ones. They are barely noticable, and only our non-registered stock (wethers) or does that are sold without papers get them anyway.


The other problem, and maybe you all can help me with this, is that I *constantly* have people arguing about the tattoo thing. Every time I take a goat that is tattooed rather than tagged, I have to go through the same explanation (registered tattooed dairy goats, blah blah blah), and then an ensuing arguement about it. Is there any easier way?? And why don't they train the people that *should* know??


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## Smoosh

Is there a way for me to look up where the goat originated by the tag number?


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## TDG-Farms

Wouldnt join any government agency for any reason. As mentioned, the government would then be able to come onto your property and slaughter all your animals if they saw fit to do so. You need to understand and read the fine print. You effectively give up your rights to protect your animals from the government. The government doesnt see goats as pets ever. They are livestock period.


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## Smoosh

Okay, thank you.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm

You can register ANY GOAT, even grade nigerian and meat goats really cheap with IDGR (Interndational Dairy Goat registry)...then you don't have to tag unless your state says tags anyhow.

http://idgr.info/index/registration-requirements/


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## ptgoats45

According to the USDA tattoos on registered goats are one of the recognized forms of ID so I would assume a state can not require tags. A fair maybe would just because they don't understand that registered goats are different from non-registered goats, but I would just not go to that fair if they required tags. My vets secretary always tries to say my goats need tags to go to whatever state I am showing in and every time I have to print off the state department of ags ID requirements where they all clearly say tattoos on registered goats are accepted. They finally got the hint and don't say anything about it any more, but I always just want to ask them what they would do if I had LaMancha's :chin:

They also have tried to require some friends of mine to have their camels tagged (for ID) when they are all microchipped :hammer:. His wife won't even go to the vet anymore because she usually ends up getting into it with the secretary about the ID on the camels.

I honestly don't see how tags can be a permanent form of ID when it is so easy for them to be cut out or ripped out. It is an easy form of ID to see, but to me it really isn't permanent. I do have premise tags, but I also have Boer goats that are not registered and tag them so they can be shown as market goats at county fairs, also saves me $1 per goat when I take them to the sale 

I believe ADGA also has a program to record any goat, I think it is more like a certificate of ownership (since they will record any breed under this program) but it works and gives more credentials to the tattoos in the goats ears.


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## caprine crazy

sweetgoats said:


> We are inthe scrapies program. I have had several classes on this because I am a goat leader.
> 
> This tag is to track the goats and where they were born, so they can track if any goats come down with scrapies and they can track the farm it came from. If not they would have to kill all the goats in the area.
> 
> Lets say that I sell you a goat and you have bought goats from 5 different farms. One of the goats come down with scrapies, you know it came from ?????? but you have no proof. So the State (any State) will come in find out who you bought your goats from and go to all those farms and force them all to be destroyed. Now you did not buy that goat that came down with scrapies from me but since the tags were not in the goats they will come and demand them all to be destroyed.
> I have all my goats tagged so if they are sold there is no questions about it. I keep records of all my goats and where they go. I am not going to take a chance of someone that does not want a tag in a goats ear, and another goat of theirs come down with scrapies and me having to lose my whole herd.
> If you do any shows at all anywhere in the US they have to have scrapies.
> 
> It is a required tag in all goats and sheep (unlessthey are registered), in all states. It is to prevent from having to destroy all the goats just like they did several years ago to sheep in ????, I forgot the countyr. Please keep that tag in. If a State Vet ever comes to your place or anywhere and does not see a tag and they are not registered, they have to tag them.
> It is not a big deal at all.
> 
> If the goats are redistered and have a registration number theyn they do not have to have scrapies tag.


That really stinks that you would have to destroy your entire herd if one of your goats got scrapies. Especially if your someone who shows because then you would have a bad rep about your herd and you would loose thousands of dollars in goats.


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## TDG-Farms

I think that is what scares me most about the scrapies program. It would be a bad day for everyone if they came looking to slaughter my goats. Glad its not an issue in this area.


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