# Introduction and...milk goiter?



## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

We went and got our two minimanchas today! They are brother and sister, nearly seven weeks old, and so so so cute!


They are also currently screaming bloody murder, and they're skittish, although they have been nibbling on my pants/shirt/shoes. If I move they hop away though. Lol. 


Anyways, Basil (the cream and white) has mill goiter. Or, what I was told was milk goiter. Can anyone back that up or should I be concerned? The research I've done says not to worry but I don't want to overlook anything. They're peeing, pooping, eating fine. Haven't seen them drink yet but I've only had them home for a couple of hours! It's getting dark and they're still not going to their super comfy designated goat house. :think:

PS Basil is the soon to be wether, he's cream, Barli is the doeling, black and white. She's like a dainty little deer, so precious!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Very cute! Were they weaned at 7 weeks old or are you bottle feeding? Have they had coccidia prevention?


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> Very cute! Were they weaned at 7 weeks old or are you bottle feeding? Have they had coccidia prevention?


They were supposedly weaned... But basically from what I gather their mom had simply stopped letting them nurse often. When I got there they took a couple sips from her before she walked away. Since I expressed concern he milked her and gave me nearly a gallon of milk (she milked sooo much for such a little thing!!) but they definitely won't take a bottle so I put out a bowl for them with added probiotics, as well as probiotics in their water.

They have not had any cocci treatment. He said he only worms when needed, and hasn't needed to for a couple years. Their bm are good, and they seem very healthy to me, but I have a vet coming out tomorrow to check everything for me.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Also, they just laid down to sleep right next to the gate. If they were more comfortable with us I would move them into their beds but, I know I'd have to chase them. Any way I can convince them to sleep inside their house?


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Usually when the kids get older like they are, the mom cuts back on their feeding. That is perfectly normal, as they need less milk as they get older. He sounds like he is not very experienced with goats.

A milk goiter is normal. Kids get that, especially Nubians, when their thymus gland starts to grow.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

:welcome2::cow:

Oh my they are ADORABLE ! 
I thought i loved Barli more , the forth picture of her is really nice , she is sooo cute 

Then i saw Basil in the next one , he is too precious , lol..
The look on his face is hysterical


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Trickyroo said:


> :welcome2::cow:
> 
> Oh my they are ADORABLE !
> I thought i loved Barli more , the forth picture of her is really nice , she is sooo cute
> ...


I feel the same way!! Barli is so feminine, and just, pretty. But then Basil is like a little goat/alien/elf, and sseems so big and boyish compared to her! They're perfect together. p My husband is a little peeved that I refused to name Basil "Elrond" after the Lord of the Rings elf. Haha!

I just need to figure out how to convince them we're not scary. I want to love on them!!!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

They are both so cute , your going to have a lot of fun with them 
Take it slow , doing what your doing is perfect. Sit there , read a book , hang out with them and eat lunch or a snack. Have some thing for them to eat in a dish near you , as close as you can get it that they are comfortable putting their head down to eat. They will come around in no time. Your patience will pay off  Everything is new and scary in their world now . Working around them is good too , get them used to daily chores being done. Continue to talk to them too , that goes a long way. Once they feel comfortable in their new home , they will gain more and more confidence , before you know it , they will be climbing into your lap  
Enjoy them !


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Congrats on your new babies, they are beautiful!


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks everyone!


Surprisingly enough, their favorite family member right now is the cat. They just meow back and forth, and when the cat gets bored and walks away they follow and cry for her. Super cute!!

We'll keep on with the patience. I'd sit in there all day if I could, but I also have to try to preoccupy a very impatient three year old so, I'll spend nap times in the goat house. Haha!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh my they are sweet!!!! Love them both!

I agree 7 weeks is a bit young to ween...I just got three one month old babies on the bottle...its hard but it can be done if you are patient....I would not feed milk out of a bowl however...they need that milk to get to the right location...the Abomasum. when the baby looks up to nurse, it closes off the rumino reticular groove ( little trap door) so milk goes into the abomasum ( milk chamber)..and not in the rumen, where milk will sit undigested and cause toxicity. if you can not get them on the bottle, offer some calf manna pellets along with hay and alfalfa. here is a good link to read more on the babies digestive system...
http://goat-link.com/content/view/99/86/#.VfY1PmRViko

on worms: although I agree to worm only when needed..cocci is something we need to prevent...a fecal can alert you to any problems..but prevention is so much better then the cure..

choices are: 
My firstchoice is Toltrazuril 5% ( Baycox) which needs to be ordered ( horseprerace.com) its a one dose preventive 1 cc per 5#
next choice is Sulmet or Dimethox..a five day treatment...1 cc per 5# day one and 1 cc per 10# day 2-5

best wishes


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Missed the part with he milk in the bowl....not a good thing.
Im thinking maybe going against what i just posted , and trying to get them used to bottle feeding....if you could do that , you won't believe how tame they will become. It can take time and patience and a lot of napkins cause of milk going everywhere but in them , but once their hunger takes over , they will accept the bottle. Place baby in your lap , bear hug , , bottle upside down in your hand so you can grasp their muzzle and hold the bottle in the same hand.....once they realize that is mommas milk , things should go smoothly. Some take more time then others and be downright squirrelly , but should come around. Oh , you want to warm the milk , mix it so its the same temp completely . Cold milk isn't too appetizing for them IMO and not what they are used to , mommas milk is nice and warm


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Since they won't let me touch them, do I need to catch them and then try the bottle?


I feel like that'd be traumatic..


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I know , its not easy at all. Are they eating ok otherwise ? They have to build a rumen and that happens when still nursing. They try different things by watching momma , little bits of grain , hay , forage...but all the while still getting nourishment from their mom. 
I think they do need the milk yet , but thats just me. Were they handled at all by their previous owner or just left with the dam ? 
If you do decide to give the bottle a try or get a lamb bar , i would put them in a smaller space so if you were to handle them and try bottle feeding , it will be much easier on the both of you . Once they are held close and stop struggling and calm down in your arms , talk soft , move slow , then give them a taste of the milk from the bottle. That little bit of mommas milk may be all it takes for them to accept the bottle and you. The next time you bottle feed , it may be a bit easier cause they learn where their next meal is coming from very quickly.


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm definitely not an expert, but I think what your little guy has is probably milk goiter. I had a little buckling who's neck looked just the same, and that's what I decided he must have. I gave him away at 8 weeks old, so I don't know if it went away once he was weaned, but I assume it did, and his new owner says he is doing great, at about 5 months old now. I read it's common with kids who's moms are heavy producers, and is a sign that the kids are very well-fed (my buckling's "goiter" felt like extra fat to me).

I agree with the others that if you can get them to take a bottle it would be great for them, and also so good for taming them too. I have 2 goats that were bottle babies and 2 that weren't, and the bottle babies are just so easy to deal with, if possibly a bit clingy and bratty. I trimmed everyone's hooves today, and I was really noticing the difference. They simply have no fear, and just enjoy my company so much more than the other 2. Then again, I raised the 2 bottle babies myself, and got the other 2 as adults, so who knows what could be in their pasts to make them slightly less trusting and affectionate.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Alright, so I got up extra early so I'd have an hour or so with them before the kids got up. I took raisins out and warmed bottles of their mama's milk. I got Barli to take a few raisins out of my hand, and she let me pet her a tiny bit. Basil didn't get close enough. Neither of them showed any interest in the bottle, but I also didn't try to force it. We'll have to hold them down later today for their vet check, so we'll try again then. 

They are eating well, they seem in good body condition too. They've been browsing a bunch, eating a lot of fallen leaves, and both have been "chewing their cud".


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

jmez61690 said:


> Alright, so I got up extra early so I'd have an hour or so with them before the kids got up. I took raisins out and warmed bottles of their mama's milk. I got Barli to take a few raisins out of my hand, and she let me pet her a tiny bit. Basil didn't get close enough. Neither of them showed any interest in the bottle, but I also didn't try to force it. We'll have to hold them down later today for their vet check, so we'll try again then.
> 
> They are eating well, they seem in good body condition too. They've been browsing a bunch, eating a lot of fallen leaves, and both have been "chewing their cud".


Thats a great step that Barli will take raisins from you , i also think she is very hungry. They most likely won't take the bottle readily from you , they have no idea what it is. Your going to have to hold them. Yes , its going to be scary at firs for them and be prepared for them to scream bloody murder too . But once they release enough in your arms ( be prepared to sit for awhile ) they will eventually take the bottle and then you will be surprised how well then drink.
After that , you will have tame , and annoying bottle babies , loll....
(kidding ) they are a lot of fun , but do know you will become their mom , literally 

Just saying here , at seven weeks old , they can loose condition very quickly .


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Alright, I managed to force down a little over two ounces in Barli. She hated it and made a bunch of gurgling noises. Is it possible to make her choke? She did relax a bit in my arms and just hung out, but I checked her eye color and it was on the pale side, so I'm going to make sure we deworm them both. Still can't catch Basil, but I'm going to keep trying throughout the day to give them this milk!!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Don't force her , she can choke and it can get it into her lungs. 
I would worm her and support her with some b complex. 
You can put a small amount of milk in the side of her mouth and let her swallow. 
Make sure to not hold her neck tightly don't she can swallow comfortably. 
Her head should be tilted slightly upward.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Okay, so this just took a weird turn.


I caught Basil and gave him the bottle, he drank about five ounces but I had to squirt it into the side of his mouth and then he'd swallow. 


Here's the thing. I was examining him closer because I didn't see any testicles to band and.....he pees out of a vulva under his anus...but has a penis. But no testicles. 


So....hermaphrodite? What now? I knew that happened sometimes with polled goats, and Barli is polled, but, is he/she infertile or....?


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

You want her to accept the nipple so its going to take patience and time.
Im hoping they stay strong enough to want to eat , being her lids her as place as you mentioned. 
B complex and worming as was suggested should be done asap.

Again , do not force her , be very careful. You can also use a syringe (without needle) to put milk in the side of her mouth. But I'm hoping they will both accept the nipple before you have to do that.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

jmez61690 said:


> Okay, so this just took a weird turn.
> 
> I caught Basil and gave him the bottle, he drank about five ounces but I had to squirt it into the side of his mouth and then he'd swallow.
> 
> ...


Oh my ! I have no experience with this , sorry...
Others will chime in to help you with that....
Ummmmmm.......Cathy ?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It does sound like a hermaphrodite.

You should have a vet look at the goat to see if the goat can live like that as a pet.
Or do something more, by either surgery or other means.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Talk to your vet and let the breeder know as well. If your vet says he can live just fine as a pet , thats great , but if not , the breeder should take him back and replace or refund. Its hard to return when your attached to them , i know  Hopefully its something that isn't life threatening for him and he will still make a nice pet.....

As for the bottle feeding ....sit and hold them for a while before trying the bottle. Let them relax and start to enjoy the warmth and cuddling.
Then little bits at a time with the milk. Their hunger should take over and hopefully they start to nurse for you .
But do worm them and do the b complex support. You don't want them to start getting weak..
Your doing good


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

toth boer goats said:


> It does sound like a hermaphrodite.
> 
> You should have a vet look at the goat to see if the goat can live like that as a pet.
> o something more, by either surgery or other means.


Thanks Pam


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

The vet will be here in 20 minutes. I'm not sure if he'll worm them or if he'll just tell me what to use, but generally I like to know ahead of time what is good vs bad advice so, what do y'all use to deworm? I don't want to regret letting him do something just in case he's not as smart as you guys are. Lol.

I'll also be running to the feed store as soon as he leaves for b complex and possibly milk pellets. Anything else I should get?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

wow..you are doing a great job..Raisen get them every time!! lol be sure to give no more then 4-5...I know teaching a wild kid to nurse is not an easy task...but will be well worth it once they catch on....I would pen them in a small area if you can..so chasing them isn't a problem..but either way...once you have them...sit them on your lap and get them relaxed as Tricky suggested...you might try a bit on honey of the nipple to encourage them. I start with honey on my finger and let them suck it off a few times them slip the honey dipped nipple in..hold their head upward and pulse the bottle gently to get it flowing..go slow and allow time to swallow...they will catch on : ) 

as for your little man..yep...he's a hermaphrodite...without testes you will not be able to band him..surgery will be needed if he has testes internal...hopefully your vet has some experience in this and can offer advise...personally I would take him back to the breeder. it will be hard to say if sister is sterile or not...Polled does not necessarily mean infertile...we have a polled doe who kids triplets every year and her daughter always do well...the problem often arises ( from what I read) breeding polled to polled...there is some dispute on this as well...

best wishes!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

valbazen is a good broad based wormer...great for kids..its oral...and also gets tape worm if thats an issue...


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Argh, I just typed a long update and then deleted it!!


In summary:

I misread eyelid color, I guess I was looking at the wrong part of the lid, he said they're not showing signs of anemia/worms but we're still deworming them and starting cocci prevention. Basil is most definitely a hermaphrodite, but it remains to be seen if he will have internal testicles that we'll need to surgically remove. He couldn't feel them and thinks he's probably going to be infertile, but we're going to have to wait and see. Overall he thought they were both in great health "considering the guy was a moron." The vet was NOT a fan of whoever bred them. He thinks the guy told me the wrong birth date and that they're over 8 weeks, and that he also had to have known that Basil wasn't a "complete" male and was just trying to pawn him off. At the end of the day, though, he said they'll both be fine!


Oh, and my original question about the milk goiter? The vet verified it is milk neck and will clear up.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Excellent as far as them not being anemic and doing well otherwise 
Sorry about the boy though  what are your plans ?
And since they are older better for you not to have to bottle feed , unless you want to . I was wondering since you said they were chewing cud ......
Glad they were wormed and given a clean bill of health minus the boys missing parts. I'm relieved you got the vet to look them over


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Trickyroo said:


> Excellent as far as them not being anemic and doing well otherwise
> Sorry about the boy though  what are your plans ?
> And since they are older better for you not to have to bottle feed , unless you want to . I was wondering since you said they were chewing cud ......
> Glad they were wormed and given a clean bill of health minus the boys missing parts. I'm relieved you got the vet to look them over


Honestly I have no idea what to do with Basil. I guess wait and see? If he becomes Bucky and we'd have to do surgery to sterilize him, idk if that's an option for us. We originally just needed a companion for Barli and it seemed best to have her brother, as a wether. But I have to be logical... Spending that much money to wether him wouldn't be practical for us.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Is it a option to get in touch with his breeder and either pick a replacement or get a refund ? 
I know its hard , but before you get anymore attached , maybe its a good idea....It is a lot of money , i agree.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Trickyroo said:


> Is it a option to get in touch with his breeder and either pick a replacement or get a refund ?
> I know its hard , but before you get anymore attached , maybe its a good idea....It is a lot of money , i agree.


I did text him earlier, after the vet came. I told him that Basil is a hermaphrodite. He replied "like a boy and a girl together?" He said he'd never heard of that before but at least he'd still be a good pet and that's what we wanted.:GAAH: So, I'm not going to even deal with that guy anymore. I told him at least now he's informed that any more of the babies from those parents could have the same issue, and he didn't reply after that.

Okay, I got durvet vitamin B complex oral gel. Anyone know what the dosage should be? Can I follow the label or are there special instructions for kids?


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Oh geez ! I can see why you don't want to deal with him. You did your part in telling him about it , thats all you can do i guess.
I haven't used the vitamin B complex gel , but I'm thinking its 4-5 grams a turn of the dial....i think that would be sufficient..
But lets see if someone else has used it before dosing. You really can't hurt them with it though.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

1/2 a gram each for those little things. 

We have a curious "scientist in learning" community here. Could we get close ups of the hermie's privates (all of them), teats, and profile of her head?


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

:hi5:


goathiker said:


> 1/2 a gram each for those little things.
> 
> We have a curious "scientist in learning" community here. Could we get close ups of the hermie's privates (all of them), teats, and profile of her head?


I'll do my best!!


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Alright, I did my best but I was by myself so it was difficult getting pictures!! Some of these I've already posted, but I figured it'd be good to have them all in one place.


So Basil's "penis" is basically like an outtie belly button, I don't see any holes of any kind, so....??? Idk. I checked Barli over and she doesn't have anything like that. Then Basil's read end is almost like a mini vagina. Sorry I didn't get any better pictures, he/she kept his/her tail down since I was holding "it". I need to just start calling Basil " she" probably. Lol. But basically, to me it looks like she has a urethra only, but no vagina? Idk. I don't feel any testicles if I press around the teats, and the teats seem similar sized as Barli's.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Here's a zoomed in version of the one good pic I have of her rear end.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

humm..I don't see a penis at all?? But that face...ADORABLE!!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I am not seeing either the intersex characteristics or the secondary characteristics that I would expect from a Hermie. 

I have an idea though, Oregon State University has a test that can be done. It's a little spendy ($50.00) but, it will tell you wether or not there are testes hiding in there for sure. Just call and talk to them to find out how the blood sample needs to be sent, they are extremely helpful and nice there. Just ask them about their "Free Martin" test and explain what you have, etc. 
With any luck, she will come back genetically female.

I am seeing an underdeveloped female goat...


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

So, if Basil is female, but underdeveloped....what then? I can't find anything online that looks like she does, or has any sort of explanation. Anyone have any ideas?


And I agree that the "penis" could be something else or, idk. It's just a circle with no hair and a little bump? But then, her vagina isn't at all like Barli's. I really have no idea.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If she is genetically female then she will just be the wether you wanted to begin with the same personality and the same limitations.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Well , we have to change her name name now and i have a few ideas :coffee2::ROFL:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Just call her Basilla... It's a good name for a mutant :lol:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Now, I just had another thought...

Does have 2 distinctly different vulva types. I found this picture of two of my doelings side by side. These are both perfectly normal doelings, just different in shape. They are, in fact, twin sisters. 
The reason I'm showing this is because I don't see the tiny teats that are normal to a hermie or free martin on your doeling.


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

I guess it's possible they're just both girls! They just look so totally different... Basil has such a wide head and neck, and she's about two inches taller at the shoulders. And, why would he sell me a doeling at a wether's price? How was he that dumb to not realize that?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Did I hear Free Martin? :lol: 

I posted a little while back - a doe who grew past "normal" height, and had a different build, and underdeveloped teats and vulva. We cannot get her bred, and it is strongly believed she is a Free Martin as she possesses pretty much all of the usual signs. Maybe the pictures will be useful - here is a picture of her, comparing her to a doe the same age. As you can see, Patti (darker brown) has barely visible teats that are hard and small. Her vulva is also quite small. The other doe on the other hand, has plumper, soft teats and a larger vulva. At the time this picture was taken, both were maiden does and had not been bred. The lighter doe since has produced kids, and the other doe cannot. She is a freeloader. :lol:

Also worth noting she has a different build. A smaller pelvis, more like a wether's.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I would like to say though, your little girls are both adorable. And in the end, only way to tell is to try! I believe there is a blood test too, more accurate when younger. Maybe you'd like to look into that.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

The "penis" you may be feeling can be the umbilical cord location...sometimes they can me a bit pronounced. I tend to agree with Goathiker here...she just does not look hermie to me...also keep in mind..when you breed two different breeds like a Nigerian to a lamancha for a mini lamancha..you can easily get kids to look like one or the other...This little gal looks more lamancha, which is a larger breed while her sister looks more nigie...the mini breed...thus the difference in size and shape..


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

This is all very interesting, what a learning experience!! I appreciate all of your help and advice. 

Is it possible to have a free martin that wasn't a twin with a buckling?

Maybe she's just a normal doe! Time will tell. I might end up doing the genetic test. 

On another note, I just managed to get Basil to eat from my hand! Now that I don't have to force anything else down them I can focus on gaining their trust. Cheerios did the trick!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

oh..we love this kind of stuff lol...good learning material ;-)


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Trickyroo said:


> Well , we have to change her name name now and i have a few ideas :coffee2::ROFL:


Share your ideas!!!!

Although, my three year old already wakes up in the morning yelling "Basil can't have any ears!!! Barli has ears!!!" I'm not sure a name change would stick. Haha.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I think Basil still a cute name..and not a boy or girl name...its an herb LOL...:slapfloor:


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

happybleats said:


> I think Basil still a cute name..and not a boy or girl name...its an herb LOL...:slapfloor:


Funny story about how we came up with these names...

My favorite movie when I was a kid was Shirley Temple's version of "Heidi". We named our cat Heidi. My daughter's favorite show is " Little Bear". When I was looking up names I remembered that Heidi had goats...and one of them was named Barli, which means Little Bear! So naturally we had to use that. I wanted to name Basil "Hermey" after the elf in Rudolph, (you know, blonde with elf ears?) but my husband shot that down. Basil and Barli just sounded cuter together. ;-)


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

lol..


> I wanted to name Basil "Hermey" after the elf in Rudolph,


 That could have been ironic lol


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here is a doeling that is half mini Alpine and half LaMancha. She was a bruiser, literally, her poor mom. See how much thicker her bone is compared to the Alpine doelings behind her?


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

goathiker said:


> Here is a doeling that is half mini Alpine and half LaMancha. She was a bruiser, literally, her poor mom. See how much thicker her bone is compared to the Alpine doelings behind her?


That looks A LOT like Basil and how she's built!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Nah I really like the names you gave them 
Barli and Basil are pretty cute


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

happybleats said:


> lol.. That could have been ironic lol


Now what would've been ironic is if she named her Bruce. :laugh:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Now could her 'penis' actually be a hernia? I can't believe the breeder did all this.....very sad but funny at the same time! Maybe they had a wether and a doe that looked the same? Either way I think I would stay away from them lol


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## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Jessica84 said:


> Now could her 'penis' actually be a hernia? I can't believe the breeder did all this.....very sad but funny at the same time! Maybe they had a wether and a doe that looked the same? Either way I think I would stay away from them lol


The lump doesn't go back in when squeezed, is there another way to check? It kinda looks like it's just made of skin, if that makes sense. A belly button that healed funny?


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## Jalcol (Aug 21, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> Very cute! Were they weaned at 7 weeks old or are you bottle feeding? Have they had coccidia prevention?


Indeed they r very lovable and cute, love them.


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