# Thin and Picky



## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

Hey all!

I've had my goats for about a month now, and everyone except my girl Coco seems to be thriving. She was born this March and only weighs 45 pounds - she's 5/8 LaMancha, 3/8 Sable Saanen, and I feel like she should be much bigger than she is. She's so tiny and thin it makes me really worried.

Coco had pneumonia, which I treated with PenG. She still has a bit of a cough-due-cold despite the treatment. She also had diarrhea and loose stools to the point that I called a vet and had her tested for parasites - coccidi, which I treated with Corid, and generic worms that were treated with ivermectin. The vet said she might be thin because of her illness, but how long does a goat being thin last?

She gets COB, alfalfa, and free ranges on huckleberry and Oregon grape on my property. Per the vet, I've also been trying to get her to eat Special 6. But she has no interest in eating the Special 6 and what she gets only comes when I mix it with COB. She even refused to eat it when I drenched it with molasses!

I am worried about her growth bring stunted because of how tiny she is. She just won't eat the stuff that'll help fatten her up and help her grow. I've tried a B complex gel to stimulate her appetite, but I just can't seem to get her to put on weight.

For what its worth, I've been checking her ears and she doesn't seem to have any wax build up, and the vet advised me against cleaning her ears more than once a month. I also don't know if she's had a copper bolus before I bought her, and reading through these forums it seems that she might need it, so I just ordered some from Amazon.

Any other advice on how I can fatten her up and get her to grow?

Here's a picture for reference:

View media item 3569


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

Did your vet re-test after the treatment with Corid and Ivermectin to make sure that took care of her coccidia and parasite issues?
I think she could definitely use a copper bolus once they arrive. If she were mine, I'd probably start her on a Replamin routine too until she's looking better. Won't make her fatter, but it'll make her look better and she'll be healthier overall.

I like Calf Manna for putting weight back on skinny goats. Most of them love it, although I had a couple of bucks this year who I was trying to get back into condition after rut, and they wouldn't touch it. Everyone else likes it though! You can get it in a small bag, so you're not left with a giant expensive sack of feed if it turns out she won't eat it.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

First of all: :groupwelcome:!!

Loose stool always makes me first of all think of something wrong with the micro-flora in the rumen and guts. The members in here who know me, will predict what I am now saying: Does she eat her Twigs and Leaves as a good goat?

As soon as the knowledgeable members get to see your thread, you will get more advice. Until then, consider if you can share more photos; for example the face is not visible above. Some people in here are amazing, can see lots in photos!

And, again, welcome to our group of goat addicts!


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

We haven't retested, but I also haven't seen any loose poops since we finished the Corid treatment.

Her coat and such is long, but she's shiny and has great fur - better than my other Saanens! She's just small and so, so thin.

She L O V E S her twigs and leaves - I often have to pry her away when it's time to go to bed. She also loves COB and "cookies" - Purina Apple & Oat Flavored Horse Treats. She'll do anything for a cookie!

She's my most affectionate goat, and such a sweetheart. I just want her to be healthy.

ETA - I will try some calf manna today. How much would you recommend giving?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

She is probably a bit stunted from coccidia. PenG isn't the best for respiratory issues. Tylan 200 is a better OTC antibiotic. I would be doing probiotics daily for at least a week if not longer to really make sure her rumen is populated with good bacteria. I'd also get Replamin Plus and give 5cc daily for 5 days and then once a week thereafter. Giving her chewable vitamin C and garlic wouldn't hurt either.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Does she still have scouring issue?
If so, give pig scour halt. 
Go by the instructions, but double the dosage for goats. 

We also need to rebuild her rumen.
Probiotics and fortified vit B complex 6 ccs per 100 lbs SQ for 3 days.

She seems to have appetite, but if they do not like a certain grain, they need to be started on it gradually. 
It doesn't mean she does not have a good appetite. 
Some we even have to put it into their mouths daily on and off for them to get the taste for it. 

The red cell is 6 ccs per 100 lbs orally for 1 week, 1 x a day, then 1 x a week. 
Always monitoring her eye color daily. If at anytime the color gets to borderline famancha safe level, stop at that time. No matter what day it is.
Do not give it to goats who are not anemic.

I hate to say this, but, if she had cocci too long before treatment, it may of destroyed the stomach lining so she cannot absorb good nutrients, which stunts and keeps them thin.
But only time and feed will tell.

If she is eating the Special 6 when mixed to the cob, do it. As time goes by add a bit (a pinch) more of the Special 6.
Do this gradually to get her adjusted to it and to where you want her to be with it. 

Calfmanna is good for weight gain. But some do not like it either, you can do the same method I mentioned above to introduce this to her.

It is good to get a fecal for cocci and worms to make sure things are OK,
at least 2 weeks later.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

Icklekins said:


> We haven't retested, but I also haven't seen any loose poops since we finished the Corid treatment.
> 
> ETA - I will try some calf manna today. How much would you recommend giving?


I'd retest anyway. On more than one occasion, I've treated a goat for coccidia after noticing scours, the scours clear up following treatment, I assume all is well, and then months later I send off a fecal and discover that the goat still has very heavy coccidia loads. Now I always re-check following treatment. Better to be sure, since coccidia can have permanent damage.

As an aside, every goat that I've ever bought that has seemed small or not to be growing well, had ended up having high coccidia loads when tested. Even ones from herds who had preventative practices in place.

For the calf manna, I start with just a small handful and work my way up to a couple large handfuls, but I have little Nigerians. Either feed by hand (some goats will want to eat it just because YOU'VE got it!) or mix with whatever grain she is currently eating.


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

I really hope she'll grow a little bit more - otherwise I'd be hesitant to breed her and I can't afford a pet goat. 

I forgot to mention she's been on probiotics since she was on antibiotics. She gets a handful every other day at this point. I'm having my hubby go to the tsc to get some Replamin for her later.

I only have LA2000, I don't know if the antibiotic you mentioned is available in my state. 

What's scouring? 

I've given her one dose of B complex a few days ago, but I didn't give her more yet because I didn't know how often I should give it. I'll give her more today.

I'm hoping I didn't wait too long to treat her for the cocci - she might have had it for a few weeks before I got a clear picture of what was going on. I feel like a bad goat mom because I didn't treat her sooner. T_T

I'll see where I can send a stool sample local to me, I can't afford to have the vet do it again.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

Scours is the fancy livestock term for diarrhea  

I use MeadowMist for my fecals. She's very good and very affordable. She's at MeadowMistnigerians.com or on Facebook as MeadowMist Lab Services. She charges $5 per sample, usually has results back to you within a day or two of receiving the sample, and is great if you have any follow-up questions or need advice.


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

I got a better picture of her. 

Today she had no interest in the special 6 so I put some in her mouth - and she spit it right back out. Would blending it with some water and kind of force-feeding her be a good idea?

I gave her the copper bolus yesterday and hopefully today will get her some selenium and the Replamin. 

She's lost so much condition I'm afraid she might wither away and die.  What other things could I try to help fatten her up at least and boost her muscle condition?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Calistar said:


> Scours is the fancy livestock term for diarrhea
> 
> I use MeadowMist for my fecals. She's very good and very affordable. She's at MeadowMistnigerians.com or on Facebook as MeadowMist Lab Services. She charges $5 per sample, usually has results back to you within a day or two of receiving the sample, and is great if you have any follow-up questions or need advice.


I had a wonderful experience with MeadowMist. I highly recommend!!


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

Icklekins said:


> She's lost so much condition I'm afraid she might wither away and die.  What other things could I try to help fatten her up at least and boost her muscle condition?


Maybe Dyne? It's a high-calorie supplement. You can drench it, so it may be easier to administer than trying to get her to eat something solid.

If you try Dyne, get the one with the dog on the bottle. Exactly the same stuff as the horse and livestock versions, but much cheaper for some reason. I'm not really sure on dosage though. I used it on a young buck recovering from coccidia, but I didn't use it long enough to notice any real results. But if you're at your wits end with your girl, it's one more thing you could try.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If they do not like the grain, they do spit it out like that. 
But you have to keep at it daily on and off and try to get them to mouth and swallow some. 
Each time, do a few pinches of the grain in the mouth, one at a time. 
Try to hold the mouth closed a little bit. To hold it in there.

Doing it that way makes them get a taste for the grain. Will then get them to like it after a while. 

Rinsing it down the throat with water, they do not get the taste in their mouths.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You've received excellent advice. The fact that a followup testing is helpful to full recovery, how to introduce a new grain, and the vitality of leaves and the small twigs they grow on. Especially oak leaves. 

I'd offer a protein, fat, and energy supplement in the form of a tub or block. TSC has goatProtein Pails and Dumor Goat blocks. The blocks are extremely crumbly, so you'll want to put it in a feed pan or something so it'll have something to fall apart into.

She needs more minerals and I'm glad to see you've decided to put her on Replamin as they are easily absorbed in that form. Very easily absorbed is important because of the likely scarring of the gut.

What loose mineral mix do you use for your herd? Some are more absorbable than others and we can help with that.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:up:


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

http://www.midamericaagresearch.net/

You can send fecals to midamerica. They are not expensive.

As far as the b. You can give it daily. She will just pee out what she does not need.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

How is Coco? Have you gotten her to gain any weight? Were you able to have another fecal analysis done and start her on Replamin paste?


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

Coco has still continued to lose weight, but her energy has improved. Her fecals came back negative for everything except coccidosis, which I've re-treated her for. I got a blood sample that I'm in the process of sending out - at this point I'm hoping to get results back for CAE, CL and Johnne's.... otherwise I'm not sure why she's not putting on weight.

She's not on Replamin but I do have her on Red Cell and a B complex with probiotics.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Icklekins said:


> Coco has still continued to lose weight, but her energy has improved. Her fecals came back negative for everything except coccidosis, which I've re-treated her for. I got a blood sample that I'm in the process of sending out - at this point I'm hoping to get results back for CAE, CL and Johnne's.... otherwise I'm not sure why she's not putting on weight.
> 
> She's not on Replamin but I do have her on Red Cell and a B complex with probiotics.


Refreshing myself on the situation... what minerals is she on?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

How high were the coccidia counts in the most recent analysis? And what treatment regimen did you use? 

Improved energy is a good sign! The weight may come more slowly. Is the alfalfa hay free choice (as much as she wants)? And what about the COB, how much per day? 

Is she at the bottom of the pecking order?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Is she currently anemic? If no, I would quit the Red Cell.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I completely agree with @SalteyLove

Red Cell is highly problematic if the goat isn't very anemic.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I told you so! You got a heap of useful advice. A thin cutie, hope you will get the coccidiosis out of her, to begin with. How is it, members in here, can coccidia, that have been left to play around in the guts for too long, possibly harm the guts, so that these do not take up nutrition as well as the goat needs?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Trollmor said:


> I told you so! You got a heap of useful advice. A thin cutie, hope you will get the coccidiosis out of her, to begin with. How is it, members in here, can coccidia, that have been left to play around in the guts for too long, possibly harm the guts, so that these do not take up nutrition as well as the goat needs?


In extreme or prolonged coccidiosis, the lining of the intestines becomes so damaged it actually sloughs off - you can sometimes see fleshy parts passed in the manure. Scar tissue develops in the digestive track and blocks nutrient absorption forever-more.

That's my understanding.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> In extreme or prolonged coccidiosis, the lining of the intestines becomes so damaged it actually sloughs off - you can sometimes see fleshy parts passed in the manure. Scar tissue develops in the digestive track and blocks nutrient absorption forever-more.
> 
> That's my understanding.


Yikes! I've never heard it put like that.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good advice there.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

21goaties said:


> Yikes!


Yes, Yikes!!  Thank you, @SalteyLove!


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

Hey guys! Sorry for the delay, apparently my email doesn't want to deliver notifications.

She is a bit anemic still - her eyes have only just started to turn pink again and it's not nearly as pink as it should be, so she's still on the Red Cell. She also gets a B complex that has a bit of probiotics.

She just finished a round of Albon, which I hope will treat the cocci, which was measured as a "moderate" load - but she's only like 35 pounds, which would probably mean the count is higher than it should be for her size. I have to send in her fecals again to get them re-tested here soon.

She gets free choice alfalfa, all the COB she can stand, and recently I've been letting her nosh on some of my rabbit's food because she likes to eat it - Manna Pro Pro formula. She also gets a few strawberries as a treat, and I let her out to graze on nice days.

Unfortunately because of her size, she is the lowest goat on the totem pole, and because she is so small it takes no effort to knock her over. This is why I let her out most days - she gets free choice hay, COB, and all the wild stuff she wants to eat, without the headbutts from the other girls.

For whatever it's worth, I haven't seen any sloughy bits passed in her poops, and she does seem to have regular pellets now. I am not sure that means anything, but I am hoping she'll bounce back and pick up some weight here soon.

I also picked up a coat from her from the Goat Coat shop, which I think has really helped. Since she has hardly any fat or meat left on her, I knew holding in her heat as best as possible would help her save calories and hopefully put more weight on. She wears it all the time now since our temps here are in the 30s and 40s, along with a fleece scarf around her neck. I'll add a picture to my post as soon as I can find one.

View media item 3585


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Normal poop pellets is really wonderful news. I would weigh her weekly to ensure she is gaining.


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

SalteyLove said:


> Normal poop pellets is really wonderful news. I would weigh her weekly to ensure she is gaining.


I haven't weighed her yet this week but I will see if I can find a break in the rain and do it today.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Praying for her. 

She is cute.


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

Unfortunately she was hypothermic when I checked on her today and she didn't make it. Thank you all for the support, it just wasn't enough to pull her through.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm so very sorry...
When they get that cold it can be difficult to supply enough heat for them.
Hugs.


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

I had brought her inside and put her on our floor vent, but it was probably too late. Her call was really weak and she just couldn't fight anymore. She had been sick for most of the time I've owned her.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

I'm so sorry, she sounded like a sweet goatie. 

:angel:


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

She was, and that's probably why this is being so hard on me. She would follow me around, talk to me, and she always had a tail wag for me. She was really awesome.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

What a sweetie! We sure miss her! Following you around, I wish I could send her a caress through you! :inlove: As it is, I just send you a heap of warm hugs! :hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so very sorry, you tried so hard.  :hug:


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

Thanks guys. It's been a tough few days.... no one told me when I signed up how much I'd love these goats!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug:


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Even we did come to love her, your picky one! I have her picture on my screen, such a lovely one! :inlove::hug:


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## terrasomnian (Sep 15, 2019)

Thanks for the continued support. I still really miss her - my life feels really empty without her. I'm trying to get along though.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

:bighug:Grief has to run it's course, in it's own way and time. A fellow goat person reminded me of this not too long ago. She will always have a place in your heart, one day there will be more fond memories and less sadness and longing. (console)


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:bighug::hug:


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