# HELP! Liver Fluke? or?



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*WHAT are we dealing with?*

Hey everyone, we just started doing our own fecals, first let me tell you, I am going to have nightmares abot worms & eggs for the next week <lol>.

Second, I know we have something going on. I am guessing Liver Fluke, or ::gulp:: Barberpole worm? Or?
I tried to get some pictures through the microscope lens, but my lens on my camera is just too long to really get anything good, but here's what I was able to get so far:









This is the tail on another one just like the one above:


















This thing looked like a squiggly snake?


















Any help would be greatly appreciated!

BTW, any recommended wormers would be great.

Please note: the ones from above came from our pregnant doe, so I need something I can give her.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

*Shutter* As much as I want to start doing my own fecals, seeing this is gonna creep me out! Oh well, such is the life with goats :laugh:


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

ThreeHavens said:


> *Shutter* As much as I want to start doing my own fecals, seeing this is gonna creep me out! Oh well, such is the life with goats :laugh:


LOL!! Well thankfully I didn't have any nightmares about them last night! I think I was just too tired!

Gotta find out for sure what this is so I know what kind of wormer to use.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Found something that may help ... down at the bottom there are links to different worms and pictures of them: http://goat-link.com/content/category/4/28/143/#.UTnkjtaTiSp


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

Here's another link I just came across. There are pictures of slides near the bottom of the page, showing what all the parasites look like under magnification. http://www.hippityhooves.com/FecalTesting.html


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## Frosty1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Here is a link to fias co farm's page with pics of worms. http://fiascofarm.com/goats/fecals.htm


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks so much everyone I appreciate the help! I'm really leaning towards liver fluke. The kind of wormer it takes to kill them we have never used.

Can I give a pregnant doe Ivermectin Plus? the thing that worries me is I've heard worms are starting to become resistant to it? 
Is there a horse wormer at all that kills liver flukes and is safe for pregnant does?

Can I use Valbazen on 7-10week old kids? I'd like to use Valbazen on the herd, and something safer on the preggo.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good for you learning your worm eggs, it hard so many look the same to me lol ...1 cc per 10 # valbazen works for everyone bur prego goats and ivomac plus sub q works safe fro your bred does...1 cc per 40 #


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

happybleats said:


> Good for you learning your worm eggs, it hard so many look the same to me lol ...1 cc per 10 # valbazen works for everyone bur prego goats and ivomac plus sub q works safe fro your bred does...1 cc per 40 #


Thanks! I am going to call and see if our feed store has everything we need since I am going to get grain today. Hopefully this takes care of the problem.
I didn't see a lot of eggs, but we saw those worm looking things pretty distinctively in a doe that is skin and bones  She has triplets so she's nursing over 120lbs worth of baby, but I've been keeping an eye on her and IMO with the amount of hay/alfalfa and grain she eats she shouldn't be 'that' thin.
Wondering if this could be the culprit for our pregnant doe.

I read that it's best to fast them when you worm, so I am not going to feed this morning or give hay until after I get back & worm --- except for the pregnant doe, she'll get her feed this morning.

Praying this works. Doing the fecal was pretty neat though, my kids really thought it was neat. My nephews who are young teenagers slept over last night and also thought it was neat.

Of course my favorite part was watching my 2 oldest kids walk around following the does with bags & watching their rear ends.... LOL!!!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

lol...that would have been a kodak moment...pics to hold over their heads later in life lol..I need to do the same thing..my vet charges $12 to do fecals..that adds up with so many goats...


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Wow I would LOVE to have a vet do $12 fecals! I'd pay that much to have the ones I am most concerned about checked.
The vets around here IMO charge high prices because I think they don't want to deal with the fecals - they are dog/cat vets, and horse vets.

I have 2 more pics, I double checked the slides a bit, and used my old camera. The lenses on my cameras just aren't meant for these kind of pics.

I've seen this one show up a tiny bit:









And this is the most common one - the pregnant doe I only seen 1-2 of these eggs, but the other doe has several:









Then those worm looking things I posted earlier I see a lot of those. Not sure if it could really be grass, or worms, but they sure look like worms to me!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I say go with your gut!! I do not like to worm unless necessary since I dont want them to grow a resistance to my wormer...but if you find enough of the eggs, even if different ones I think it warrants treatment 

$12 doesnt sound like alot until you are taking fecal in for 20+ goats lol...it adds up. we live in horse country too..But my vet learned early on that my goats are important to me lol..and he will look into things for me if I ask him to ( like baycox) and he is patient with my questions and thoughts..


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks! Okay, after looking at those eggs and looking on line I am going with gut here as you said lol

I believe it may be some type of strongyloid, or fluke. I also 'think' I might have seen a roundworm on the one doe's slide - which could make sense, as she was wormed with Cydectin, and when we suspect round worm we use Ivermectin. We do deal with both Strongyles and Round worm in this area. And a type of strongyle is usually what we end up worming for when we needed to worm in past fecals.

I believe what we've always been dealing with has been this one:
http://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...&p=trichostrongyle&fr2=sp-qrw-corr-top&norw=1

I definitely remember the vet techs telling me it started with a 'T'

So, I'm off now to go get Ivermectin Plus - that will take care of both I hope.

This afternoon before we worm I plan to collect a few more samples from 2 more does we are planning to sell, and probably compile poo from 3 random kids.

Honestly though, I do find this VERY interesting. It's creepy, but neat. It's a great learning experience for us and great for our kids.

Oh, BTW, I will try to remember to get the camera out when I have the kids collec the poo this afternoon LOL!!!

Also - the kids helped do most of this, I basically just supervised, put it in the test tubes, and on the slides


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Goats won't poop if you follow them with a pill bottle! I know, I spent quite a while waiting them to poop! My dh was laughing 
his rump off! He is sure that I have finally fallen off my rocker! You have some great kids to do all that for you!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

LOL!!!! I remember at a horse sale years ago when I first started going to 2yo in training sale some people were following horses around after their official 'breeze' <timed workout for the sale>, they were holding some funny looking equiment and stuck near the horses rear end like glue....OMG it had me laughing! Come to find out they had to follow the horse until it pee'd so they could get a urine sample to test for drugs. 
This one girl though...lol She musta followed this colt around for an hour, it was quite funny! The handler would walk the horse, stop so it could drink <cool out>, walk, drink, walk, drink.

Well, no wormer today. The feed store thought I meant Ivermectin, not the Plus  
I'm almost worried about using it, seems it's not very popular? I know there is a lot of resistance to Ivermectin, but geesh.
I may try to order a bottle, but want to get more info on the resistance.

We're going to check more fecals tonight, I want to have more of an idea of what I need to do.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Hummm It still works good here.....like you we only worm when needed so no resistance yet...Our Tractor supply carries it


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## serenityfarmnm (Jan 6, 2013)

I'd love to check out more pics if you wanna post em... I can't wait till dh gets me a microscope!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Alrght guys, I am pretty sure I know what we're dealing with... same thing we've always dealt with...Trichostrongylus!

Here's the egg, my camera decided to co operate tonight and I zoomed in on the egg to show detail:









I got this one of those eggs from a website:









So with that said...

#1 fecal last night, wormed 2/10 & 2/20 w/Equimax horse paste. I only counted 1-2 eggs in her fecal, but saw what looked like worms. However I was told they were probably not worms, but hair folicles, etc. by someone who does fecals regularly.

#2 fecal last night, was last wormed with Cydectin but did not do a follow up dose. Had a decent amount of eggs, not a 'wormload' worth IMO, going by fiasco farm website, but with her being thin <nursing 120# worth of triplets>, I want to be safe than sorry.

#3 fecal done tonight, was last wormed with Cydectin but did not do a follow up dose. She had the most eggs by far, I counted 21, probably missed some.

Now for my little 'experiment' haha...
Doe #2 we gave a hefty dose of Cydectin this afternoon.

Tomorrow I plan on giving Doe #3 and anyone else we need to worm Ivermectin. Not sure if I'll use injectible or horse paste <preferably Equimax>.

In a week I figure I'll take another fecal sample of #1 and #3 and see where we are on egg count.

Now, to figure out the best way to give the Ivermectin. I like Equimax because it'll take care of tapes too, not that I've ever seen signs of them, but still...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It normally takes 21 days for the remaining worms to come back out of hibernation and start laying again. A fecal in a week will tell you how many more larvae were left but, won't tell you how many adults were able to escape.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

goathiker said:


> It normally takes 21 days for the remaining worms to come back out of hibernation and start laying again. A fecal in a week will tell you how many more larvae were left but, won't tell you how many adults were able to escape.


Thanks! That's what I was wondering. So just wait 21 days? Or should we do one before we worm a 2nd dose @ 10-14 days? Just to make sure it really is effective?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Just worm however you normally do and then refecal at 21 days after the last dose to see how many females are left 
Brown stomach worm here is still very suseptible to Ivomec but the injectale given orally seems to work better then horse paste. I'm not sure about the ones you are fighting. I do know that I have liver fluke so, I give the Ivo plus twice a year. Their life cycle is very long and two wormings a year cleans them out for the year.


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## kristinatucker (Jan 3, 2012)

We repeat in 10 days when we worm. I have some good links I can send you for identifying but can't get to it till later today. Fecals are cool but freaks me out too


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks everyone! 
The reason I think the Equimax may be better is because it's 1.87% Ivermectin, whereas the injectable is 1.0%.
Honestly, we didn't have much luck with the injectable against these worms in Jan 2012 when our buck was down and got a worm load from being so stressed during his illness. 

I still can't find Ivermectin Plus here  TSC doesn't have it, and I'd have to drive nearly an hour away to the closest place that has it.

I may get a different horse wormer, but needs to have the higher dose of Ivermectin in it.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Okay just an update. I just bought regular ivermectin horse paste that has 1.87% Ivermectin. Treated all the does, and went ahead and gave all the kids their first worming.

It really is 'that time of year' for us, things starting to grow. We typically have to worm March-Sept/Oct. almost on a regular routine because parasites can be such a problem. 
Now at least with the microscope, we can check and worm on a need to worm basis and not go by just eyelids/physical appearance and guesswork! Won't have to decide which goat to take a fecal sample to the vet, etc.


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## ogfabby (Jan 3, 2013)

The first pic is hair (yes, it can be that tiny...ESP in poop  the second is a liver fluke, and there seems to be our good buddy the roundworm in there as well. The squiggly is just trash. 

Btw, good job!! I see no coccidiosis!! Amazing in a goat! 

I worked in vet clinics for 13 years.


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## kristinatucker (Jan 3, 2012)

How do you get the picture of your slide?? I have a 2 eye microscope and was trying to figure out an egg, which I think is maybe the same as what you have, and tried to take a pic but no luck getting anything even close to the slide. I like that you can snap a pic and get help. How much of the horse wormer did you give? I was thinking of treating my buck. I only saw 2 in the entire slide so I dont know if I should bother yet but he is a little on the thin side which is why I tested him.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

I don't know how HS does it but I put the lens of the camera directly over the eye piece.


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