# Is the buck too big?



## mmcgill (Jun 11, 2018)

Total newbie and admittedly scared to death and dreading breeding our girls. 

We have Nubian yearlings and I was told now is the time to breed them to our buck. 

Our buck (also Nubian) is significantly larger. I mean, I think that's how bucks go...But I do think he's on the large side for sure. And I think the girls are smaller because they are young and still have some growing to do. But I'm worried about kidding difficulties and wondering if I should find a smaller buck. 

And wondering if I should just wait. 

Folks told me to breed now - that there could be issues if I wait until the girls are two because of something about fat build up that I didn't totally understand. 

For those more experienced, what say you? Thanks in advance.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Waiting till 18 months old is fine.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I always breed my does around 18 months to kid at 2 years old. If you keep them at a healthy weight, there should be no issues at that age.

With that being said, the physical size of the does DOES matter but the physical size of the buck really does not matter. What matters is the buck's genetics and how large of a kid he tends to throw.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 3, 2018)

Do you have any pics and weights of your goats?

Our Nubian buck is huge. Even though our Nubian does were smaller than him everything went fine.


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## mmcgill (Jun 11, 2018)

Brown doe is the one we are planning to breed. She is 13 months old. Here are photos of everyone. Thanks so much for all of your advice!!!


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## mmcgill (Jun 11, 2018)

UPDATE: I had our farm vet out yesterday and she told me that she'd recommend getting a smaller buck. That in goats, the size of the kids is dictated by the genetics of the father, and that, while things might go just fine, the chance of dystocia will increase if we use him...

So I guess I'm on the hunt for a smaller buck


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Good luck on your hunt.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I feel that is very short sighted of your veterinarian. Do you know what the birth weight of your buck was? Has he sired any kids?

Here's the thing - a buck can come from genetic lines that are prone to throwing huge 12-14 pounds kids, but the buck himself may have had poor care during his growing years, or a bout with coccidia, or any number of setbacks which causes him to mature to an under-sized adult size. So someone sees him as a small adult buck. THAT DOESNT MATTER because he will still father giant 12-14 lbs newborns because it's genetics. On the other side you can have ENORMOUS 300 lb Boer bucks that sire consistent 7-9 easily birthable kids because those are the genetics. These bucks were fed 5+lbs of grain per day and top notch care to reach their monumental size but it doesn't mean they throw huge kids.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Is that your buck in the middle photo with the white band around his middle?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

You're buck is super handsome and you've spent your hard earned money purchasing and raising him. I hope that your veterinarian is not suggesting to get a less thrifty goat with poor genetics that was not raised properly.

















I've never lost a goat kid or dam to dystocia. 275lbs former herd sire and a smaller type adult doe he bred below. I do weight until 18 months of age to breed the does though.

I hope this helps you make your decision! Best of luck whichever you choose.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

I agree, how big was the buck at birth? my 300lb Boer buck throws smaller 5-7 lb kids, even a small framed LaMancha doe did great with his kids,


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

the BEST kidding I had, I had waited tell the doe was 18 months to breed, every doe I bred younger never did as well, ie: they didn't grow to full potential, or I HAD to help them deliver, at least there first, or both, there milk didn't quite come in well, so now I WON'T breed until 18 months or older, it is a myth "a goat won't produce as well if not bred there first year" a complete myth

sorry for the rant, but I don't think your buck is two big, he is the same breed as the girls, that's a BIG thing


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You want low birth weight, but fast growth after they are born.


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## mmcgill (Jun 11, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> I feel that is very short sighted of your veterinarian. Do you know what the birth weight of your buck was? Has he sired any kids?
> 
> Here's the thing - a buck can come from genetic lines that are prone to throwing huge 12-14 pounds kids, but the buck himself may have had poor care during his growing years, or a bout with coccidia, or any number of setbacks which causes him to mature to an under-sized adult size. So someone sees him as a small adult buck. THAT DOESNT MATTER because he will still father giant 12-14 lbs newborns because it's genetics. On the other side you can have ENORMOUS 300 lb Boer bucks that sire consistent 7-9 easily birthable kids because those are the genetics. These bucks were fed 5+lbs of grain per day and top notch care to reach their monumental size but it doesn't mean they throw huge kids.


I hear ya. I know there are a lot of factors and in her defense, she didn't tell me not to breed him. She simply expressed her concerns (when I asked if she thought it would be a problem) as there are simply things we don't know about him.

I don't know his birth weight. I know he was bred four times prior to coming to me through a herd dispersal. I reached out to his prior owner and she said no problems with kidding, and 2 of the does were first fresheners BUT she always waits until the does are 2 years old before breeding.

Oh, and btw, I'm like a first time mom with all of this...totally overprotective and worried about anything and everything going wrong LOL.

And yep. The buck is the one with the white band in the photo


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## mariella (Feb 23, 2017)

I agree with the others. Keep your buck and wait to breed your girls. I wait until they are 18-24 months before breeding and have never had any problems with conception or birthing. He doesn't look to big as he is now. Let your girls grow a bit more. Also I've never had any issues breeding a big buck to smaller does( I had an ND doe breed with a Nubian buck and she kid unassisted). Any kidding promels have to do with the hips of the doe and the head of the buck(Or a malpositioned kid). Do you have pictures of him as a kid? If his head was small then I wouldn't worry.

Also I'm not sure you could breed your girl right now. Nubians are seasonal breeders. I know my yearling stopped coming in to heat 2 months ago so you may have to wait until fall to breed them any why.


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## mariella (Feb 23, 2017)

Okay so don't hate me for this! How I was taught not to breed to early was. Imagen 1 month as 1 year for your goats. So the girl you want to breed is only 13 and you want her to make babies with(Just guessing here) 35-40 year old man.... Now that sounds bad even when she's 18-24 because he still so much older. It made sense to me and I stopped breeding between 6-12 months

Letting your does wait will give them time to grow and mature(Mentally and physically) before they are forced to have babies. Letting them wait won't hurt anything but breeding to soon can stunt the mothers growth and can cause other health issues.


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## mmcgill (Jun 11, 2018)

mariella said:


> Okay so don't hate me for this!


I'd never hate you! Or anyone. This is a great discussion and I think you all have made me feel much better about breeding the buck. I so love him and I was really hoping to use him so I think we are going to give it a go in the Fall.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

lol wow.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

mariella said:


> Okay so don't hate me for this! How I was taught not to breed to early was. Imagen 1 month as 1 year for your goats. So the girl you want to breed is only 13 and you want her to make babies with(Just guessing here) 35-40 year old man.... Now that sounds bad even when she's 18-24 because he still so much older. It made sense to me and I stopped breeding between 6-12 months
> 
> Letting your does wait will give them time to grow and mature(Mentally and physically) before they are forced to have babies. Letting them wait won't hurt anything but breeding to soon can stunt the mothers growth and can cause other health issues.


that is a great way to say it!!! (I'm going to use that!)


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

I wait until they're 18 months old however I have one Nubian who is coming up three years and not kidded yet. She was a bit on the small side at 18 months so I let her go and now in the meantime, she's grown nicely - I just don't let her get fat.
camooweal


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

How much do your does weigh? How much does the buck weigh? You can use a measuring tape to get a fairly accurate weight by measuring heart girth (Google will help you find a table to calculate weight based on heart girth).

The brown one looks pretty big and healthy. What I have read, and what I am acting on right now, is that the doe should be 3/4 of her expected adult weight when bred.

Full-grown bucks will almost always be quite a bit larger than full-grown does of the same breed, if they are well-cared for. If your buck is average-sized for a Nubian buck, and your doe is at least 3/4 the size of an average adult Nubian doe, it seems it should be fine to breed them.

Or, you can do what I did, and borrow a Nigerian cross buck for first-time breeding, with the hope that this breeding will result in smaller kids, and less birthing problems the first time around.


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## momto6ls (Aug 15, 2014)

@camooweal "she's grown nicely - I just don't let her get fat."

Ok. I've been doing this for a few years, but haven't heard anything about being too fat to breed...and I've got one doe - the smallest of my heard who had triplets two years ago (first freshening, bred at 15 mo) but naturally aborted last year. She runs with everyone else, and they are fed together - one feed box. She is FAT. How do you avoid that? Everyone else gets grain and they are skinny as rails - obviously because they are producing milk. We just had a buck here for three weeks and I assume everyone is bred. Did I make a mistake? And what are the possible consequences? We are downsizing to one doe and her kids when kidding is over, and I was really hoping it would be her...


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## OpieDoodle (Nov 15, 2015)

In my opinion that was a pretty knee jerk reaction from the vet. Genetics come from BOTH sides, now breeding a buck that is too big to a petite doe is never a good idea but the genetics from both sides will come into play. 

Your does are still young and have time to grow. Its hard to automatically jump to the conclusion that the buck is too big when your does aren't even full grown yet. In most animals males tend to be a little bigger so some size difference can be expected. 

If you like your buck and what he has to offer I personally wouldn't jump to replacing him. I'd give your girls a little more time to mature if they're on the smaller side and re-evaluate at that point. 

I like big bucks, and I cannot lie :hubbahubba:


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

a fat doe has a very hard time with conception, then they have a very hard time with pregnancy, you will usually get kitosis, milk fever and a host of problems, if you can get through that delivery is much harder on a fat doe


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## mmcgill (Jun 11, 2018)

OpieDoodle said:


> I like big bucks, and I cannot lie :hubbahubba:


Hahahaha. OMG. Epic. I love his size too...so I was a little discouraged to be honest.

I think we are going to try to wait until fall so the girls have some time to grow. They aren't small by any stretch. Just young. I'm quite positive they are 3/4 of their full size. One is definitely larger than others but she is the best doe I own so I don't want her to be the guinea pig for my first ever kidding. (Which btw, I'm terrified about!)

Now, how should I prevent them from getting fat? They have tons of room, they play and climb like crazy, we give zero treats and they are fed Orchard free choice, a bit of Alfalfa twice daily, free choice minerals and free choice Selenium salt.

The vet is encouraging me to grain them, which I'm reluctant to do - but she's concerned about Selenium deficiency in our area and tells me the grain will prevent that from happening. I'm still on the fence on exactly what I want to do there.

So anything I need to do to ensure they don't get fat? I mean, they aren't really getting anything but hay (and the occasional blackberry bramble).


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## mariella (Feb 23, 2017)

They don't look fat now so I would say keep up what your doing so they keep growing without getting skinny. I wouldn't give grain I hasn't helped me any with Selenium deficiency. I would just give Selenium & E gell every once in a while.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh dear no, they don't need grain to avoid selenium deficiency!

But it's great that your vet indicated selenium deficiency is an issue in your area as that is very valuable information. I would say (personal opinion) that selenium deficiency is the number one cause of poor outcomes or difficult kiddings. Even though it's fantastic that you offer loose minerals and selenium salt, some herds need even MORE than that. And unfortunately the signs of selenium deficiency aren't usually seen until kidding happens. So with that information, I would highly recommend an additional selenium supplement. Replamin Plus oral paste is a great option, it does contain other minerals as well. Selenium & Vitamin E gel made for goats is also an option, it contains less than Replamin. In general, Selenium gel is dosed monthly and Replamin is dosed weekly. One other option is prescription injection called MultiMin90. 

P.S. don't be petrified of kidding - 99% of kidding events are flawless and happy with healthy kids and great dams resulting  Birth without fear (it applies for humans & goats!)


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## mmcgill (Jun 11, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> Oh dear no, they don't need grain to avoid selenium deficiency!
> 
> But it's great that your vet indicated selenium deficiency is an issue in your area as that is very valuable information. I would say (personal opinion) that selenium deficiency is the number one cause of poor outcomes or difficult kiddings. Even though it's fantastic that you offer loose minerals and selenium salt, some herds need even MORE than that. And unfortunately the signs of selenium deficiency aren't usually seen until kidding happens. So with that information, I would highly recommend an additional selenium supplement. Replamin Plus oral paste is a great option, it does contain other minerals as well. Selenium & Vitamin E gel made for goats is also an option, it contains less than Replamin. In general, Selenium gel is dosed monthly and Replamin is dosed weekly. One other option is prescription injection called MultiMin90.
> 
> P.S. don't be petrified of kidding - 99% of kidding events are flawless and happy with healthy kids and great dams resulting  Birth without fear (it applies for humans & goats!)


Thank you so much! I am completely terrified lol. That makes me feel so much better, but truth be told, I'll have to go through it once or twice to lose the nerves 

So just a quick question. If I were to opt for an additional Selenium supplement, is this something I should just plan to give regularly? (Monthly or weekly depending on which one we choose to get)? No need to be concerned as to whether or not they are deficient? Meaning it won't hurt to give it, even if they aren't deficient?

Thanks SO much for your reply and advise!


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## R.Williamson (Mar 21, 2019)

Hehe your vet worries me a tad. Your girls look good and healthy on whatever diet you have them on at the moment. Keep a good loose mineral available. Selenium deficiency is something to keep an eye on. Get your soil tested at your local extension. That way you know if your graze area is deficient or not. If you feed primarily hay you could also get it tested. The area it comes from may not be deficient.Soil levels under .5 ppm are considered deficient.

As for dosing, goats need .2PPM ( parts per million) of selenium and at 3 PPM it becomes Toxic. Just putting this out there as additional info.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

If your vet indicated selenium deficiency is an issue then she has seen enough cases and it would be a good choice to give an additional selenium supplement. Selenium toxicity is very very rare. You would have to be giving massive amounts


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I never give full Bo-se dosage.

I only give 2 cc's to my big boers.

You can indeed overdose, remember the looses salt and minerals or other things fed with it in there, so allow for that too.

I under dose it, even seeing signs and then can give more later if needed a few months later. If you overdose it, it can't be reversed.


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## DragonValley (Jul 29, 2016)

mariella said:


> I agree with the others. Keep your buck and wait to breed your girls. I wait until they are 18-24 months before breeding and have never had any problems with conception or birthing. He doesn't look to big as he is now. Let your girls grow a bit more. Also I've never had any issues breeding a big buck to smaller does( I had an ND doe breed with a Nubian buck and she kid unassisted). Any kidding promels have to do with the hips of the doe and the head of the buck(Or a malpositioned kid). Do you have pictures of him as a kid? If his head was small then I wouldn't worry.


Mariella would you please elaborate on that Nigerian doe/Nubian buck breeding? I've got a Nubian/Nigerian cross buckling I'd like to pass on to someone else. My husband has a friend with several Nigerian does that would like him. When the buckling was born he was about the same size as his full Nigerian sisters (didn't have a scale to weigh him). I believe his head was fairly small too. He's 2.5 months old now and larger than his yearling sisters! I'm extremely hesitant to sell him to hubby's friend as I don't want the death of one or more of his does on my conscience! I also REALLY want him moved on so I can put my Nigerians back in with my Nubian mama and have just one goat pen to tend every day!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Never breed a larger size buck to a smaller size doe. The doe should always be the bigger size goat.


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## DragonValley (Jul 29, 2016)

And that's the sad reason why I have repeatedly told hubby no, his friend can't have him...and the local market is currently flooded with bucklings  Plus, I've seen his doelings and they're definitely not on the larger side of breed standards.

There's also the fact that hubby is wanting to GIVE his friend MY buckling. All goat-related stuff comes out of my hobby allowance. The mama goat was purchased for my daughter, so the money from the sale of the buckling goes to her for a new lizard habitat.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

tell him a larger breed buck can KILL the doe AND her kids, not intentionally or during breeding, but during birth the kid will be two big for the doe, I have seen this happen it is sad


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, do not breed that big buck to the small breed doe. Bad idea.

Tell your hubby, she will most likely need a C-section, have a big vet bill to try to save her and her babies, if she survives kidding. Not fair to that doe.


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## DragonValley (Jul 29, 2016)

Thank you both. Hubby is a highly intelligent individual but does as little as possible with the animals. He puts the chickens in one night a week when the kids have an activity so the birds can stay out longer but otherwise just watches them. I'm the farmer, he just supports my habit! I do hopefully have an actual buyer for my little Mousse though. The guy just needs to ask his wife then build living quarters for him as well as line up a friend.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

Mini nubians can be bred with a nubian doe and nigerian buck, but never the other way around.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I have found that the minis (a cross between a Dwarf and a Standard) take a little longer than the dwarves do to reach full maturity, and the standards take even more time. So it is not in the least bit surprising that he outstripped his sisters.

Good luck navigating this tricky situation with your loving spouse.


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## DragonValley (Jul 29, 2016)

Hubby is VERY loving! Doesn't want roosters but tolerates each one for several months before putting his foot down and insisting we get rid of him. The latest is now in a new home with fellow roosters and still quite a few hens. Didn't want me to get a buck but ultimately gave in and I got three babies from two does out of it. Buck has been sold and fathered lots more babies. The best way to navigate the situation is to sell him (the buckling of course!) to someone else.

As for Mousse and his half-sisters Oreo and Brownie..on the contrary, it took hardly any time at all for him to surpass them in size! I think he's going to be much larger than the mini-Nubians produced by the breeder I bought dad from. His mother's genes are strong in him and she's 3/16 Togg 1/16 Boer (if I did my math correctly) so I'm thinking he's got a bit of Boer dominating, as does his mom. Mousse is 2.5 MONTHS old and his sisters are a full YEAR this week and he passed them up a couple weeks ago. I'd love to let them continue headbutting but I had to separate his sisters since he's extending.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

We have a for sale forum here at TGS. He sounds like a great idea for a homestead type goat. Good milk and a bit of heft, too.

Just not a fantastic choice for tiny girls...


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## DragonValley (Jul 29, 2016)

If my friend's brother decides not to buy him I'll post him on the boards here. Thanks.


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