# Safety with horns



## Shaylatheyoungest17 (Jul 1, 2017)

IVY




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Shaylatheyoungest17


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Aug 11, 2017




Our Pygmy nanny. Did kidded once.





I have two nanny with horns, and all my other nannies were dehorned by previous owner before me, and I couldn't do dehorned them cuz I don't have the equipment and I can't afford a vet, they both pretty expensive. But I did saw one farmer put tennis ball on their goats' horn, and I wondering that way will help them stop hitting my older nannies? Will that way help better than cut them off? I don't want do bloody ways or whatever, I'm too softy for my babies, I couldn't stand for them to suffering with pain. I want them be safe and no pain.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

How long has your herd been together? While it's true that horned goats will nearly always rise to the top of the pecking order, once their position is well established most do not reign terror on their subordinates unless they are cramped for space or food. I keep horned and dehorned goats together, and as long as there is enough room at the feeder and I have enough shelters to go around, they get along very well. I've not yet had any horn-related injuries except some minor scrapes caused by the babies during their super-sharp pokey phase. 

It's hard to wrap horns have have them stay wrapped. We use tennis balls on horns and secure them in place with Vetwrap when we're out in public where loads of children will be crowding around my goats, but these don't stay on in the pasture. If I wanted them to stay for any length of time I would use duct tape. The goats will still rub them off eventually, but it will generally take a few days instead of a few hours. 

Good luck, and thank you for trying to work with your horned gals instead of trying to band their horns. That is a long, painful process for the goat and I don't recommend it except as a last resort for a goat that is so bad it would otherwise end up in the freezer. If you must, you could always pen your horned goats separately from the others and only let the herd out together if they are going into a big pasture with loads of room to spread out. I've found that many horn-related problems are actually a problem with inadequate space or improper fencing.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

You could band the horns.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Are they actually using their horns or just head butting? My goats are horned and will argue over food some but only use the fronts of their head... So basically the same as if they didn't have horns (good grief goat heads are HARD!). My Nubian mix, Eliza, is my big meanie and the only time I have seen her try to use horns was on a buck I brought in that she hated. It was quite scary to see her go at him with those very sharp horns of hers. She very clearly knew the difference which made me feel better about her arguments with her 'sister'.


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## Shaylatheyoungest17 (Jul 1, 2017)

Those two girls like butthead on my dehorned nannies' face. I so worried about those two girls accidentally poke one of their eyes. I have 12 goats and they live two big old pig pen. I might try do duct tape on them. Thanks! 
But I don't know what is band is, will that hurt them?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

It's rare for a goat to poke another in the eye. The positioning of goats' eyes make them difficult to get poked. Watch your goats when they butt each other. Are the horned goats using the tips of their horns to swipe sideways or upwards to intentionally try to stab the other goats? If so, they are serious and the other goats could get hurt. But if they are only using the front face of their horns, they are not serious and injury is unlikely. If the goats are stabbing with their horns, you can use hoof nippers and a hoof rasp (the kind used for horses) to clip the tips down and blunt them. I sometimes do this with my 3-4 month old babies because their horns are often very very sharp and stick straight up. It won't hurt them if you nip and file only the very tips. You don't want to draw blood. 

As for banding, that is a procedure where you put a tight rubber band around the horns to cut off the circulation. The band constricts and eventually works its way through the horn, causing it to fall off. This takes 1-2 months and is painful for the goat. I don't recommend it except as a last resort for a goat that is so bad with its horns that it would otherwise end up in the freezer.


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## Shaylatheyoungest17 (Jul 1, 2017)

They do use their horn to stab the others in pen, they do that when I give out the grains.
Two of those girls are 1 years old and 3 months old, they both are sisters. And I would like to know more about band their horns, I trying look more informations to dehorned their horns. And I try find things are not painful for year older goats. 

What do you means by "end up in the freezer" ? Are you talking about goats death?


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## Goat_Scout (Mar 23, 2017)

Shaylatheyoungest17 said:


> What do you means by "end up in the freezer" ? Are you talking about goats death?


Horned goats can often get mean and abusive to their fellow herd mates (and sometimes, to people). If they are beating up on your other goats a lot, you should separate them. But some people (I for one) don't have the facilities to do so, and that means they are left with about three choices. 1) sell the goat to a home with other HORNED goats; 2) eat the goat, i.e., put it in the freezer. Many people eat goat meat, and honestly I'd rather do that then sell my wethers to a home that I know wouldn't be their forever home. Wethers are not very useful (except as a companion or pet) and not many people (such as I) have the money to keep an animal who isn't providing milk, meat, or offspring. And finally, 3), if you don't want to sell the goat or eat it, like @Damfino said, you can band it's horns. 
I am actually getting a buck tomorrow who is horned, and if he is a bully or a threat to my other two bucks (because of his horns) I will have to sell him sooner than I would've liked.

Goats usually get kind of boisterous during feeding time - mine sure do! So if that is the only time when you see them seriously butting the other goats, you can just feed the horned ones separately.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm pretty sure you have heard of the concept of frozen meat. Almost all livestock in the entire world ends up eventually being slaughtered for meat. Chicken McNuggets are from hens no longer wanted for laying. Almost all hamburgers are from dairy cows no longer wanted for milk. Older animals that used to be used for other uses are the ones put into our hot dogs, cold cuts, pepperoni on our pizzas.

Commercial farms don't keep pensioned off animals for the rest of their lives. Mean animals, problem animals, sickly animals, that is where they go, too. Ground up mystery meats.

Young, prime animals don't end up as ground, prepared, processed meat. They end up as prime cuts. That is where our chicken breasts come from, our steaks, our fillet mignon. All of which can end up in our freezers.

Damfino was saying that since banding causes pain, he only recommends it for animals that otherwise are destined for what is euphemistically called Freezer Camp.

I'd rather my animals end up quickly dead and in a freezer somewhere, than living in misery as a neglected, mistreated "pet" or "companion".

Not that all are mistreated. Enough are to make me look at that option with a jaded eye.

My own unwanted animals often end up as dog food for my LGDs.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Goat_Scout said:


> Goats usually get kind of boisterous during feeding time - mine sure do! So if that is the only time when you see them seriously butting the other goats, you can just feed the horned ones separately.


This is a very good suggestion. If your goats only use their horns roughly during feeding time, the solution is very simple. When you feed grain, tether the two girls with horns and feed them separately. When you feed hay, spread it around in different places so your goats aren't all crowding together and fighting. They will still chase each other, but at least the ones getting chased will have somewhere else to eat.

And yes, when I mentioned the freezer, I was talking about goats that are so mean they have to be put down. I would only band a goat's horns to save it's life--not to make my life more convenient. I tend to think banding horns is fairly cruel and should only be done if absolutely necessary and after all other management options have been explored. Re-homing your goats to a place with other horned goats is always a good option and one I would choose over banding.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I would try feeding apart as well. 
If she is mean other then feeding time you can try the tennis balls but have heard they can take them off pretty fast. I just recently sold a doe that I was trying to come up with ways to keep her from being so nasty. My plan was to cut a little of the tip of the horn off, there's usually a good inch before hitting blood and I figured it would make it more blunt then sharp. She was also hooking other goats so I was going to basically get duct tape and go around and around both horns and have it so it's solid and no way to hook anyone. In the end I decided it didn't matter how nice of kids she had it wasn't worth it and sent her down the road. 
I run both horned and no horns together. Except for this doe they are all fine. I have 2 that can put others in their place if they are pushed on while eating (hay I don't feed grain) but the others have learned to just let them eat first or go to other feeders. For grain they get such a sweet tooth over it others don't care if they get the snot beat out of them they will still go for it so I think if it's just about the grain taking her out and even just tying on the outside of the pen to eat her grain will work well. She should slowly get to the point where she knows what is going on and will willing come out and wait in her area.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All really good advice.


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

Horns are like fingernails so cutting them does not hurt. We bought a hoof trimmer for horses and keep the sharp tips cut off. They are hard as nails but the dogs love them as a treat.


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## Madgoat (Jan 8, 2017)

Hmm, nope, goat horns aren't like fingernails, in the way Rhino's horns are. They have a large blood vessel that goes up through the horn. It aids in disbursing body heat. If you cut too much of the horn you will hit the vein which I'm assuming is not only extremely painful but could be fatal in some cases.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I think Capracreek meant that trimming the tips does not hurt. The blood vessels do not run clear to the tip. There is usually about an inch of nerve-free horn you can trim or file before you draw blood. It doesn't take much to blunt them.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Damfino said:


> I think Capracreek meant that trimming the tips does not hurt. The blood vessels do not run clear to the tip. There is usually about an inch of nerve-free horn you can trim or file before you draw blood. It doesn't take much to blunt them.


That's how I took it too. Same as a fingernail if you take the whole sucker off or trim too deep it's gonna hurt.


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## Shaylatheyoungest17 (Jul 1, 2017)

All of ur advices gave me some ideas what to do with my two evil nannies. And I also plan to talk to my local vet this Monday. And ask more questions. And I already ordered the tennis balls. 

I do not eat my goats, I use them as breeding and as pet. 

I'm also curious about the dehorned paste? But I'm not doing it on the adults. But I thinking to do on the babies goats. What your opinions about Dehorn paste?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I wouldn't use it. I bought some years ago and then looked into it, it's super important to keep out of the eyes and not let them nurse.....basically only touch where the horns are. Disbudding is fast and over with.....disbudding is using a hot iron to burn around the little horn buds and will keep them from growing.....before you make a judgment on that watch some YouTube videos on it. I know at first I was like say what!!?? But after seeing actually done I see it's not as bad as it sounds. Others still believe it is not a kind thing to do, not at all saying I'm right they are wrong or the other way around. You may find that's not your cup of tea as well


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

I think the important thing to know is that you are burning the horn buds off either way. One is a heat burn, one is a chemical burn. Naturally, the chemical burn is going to be slower and more dangerous, having much greater potential to burn somewhere you don't want to (like their eyes, mom's mouth, etc.). I am currently planning to keep all babies horned but if I find it hard to sell them with horns (I don't think I will because most goats I see here are horned) I will have to rethink it. If I ever did, I would have to go the heat route.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Shaylatheyoungest17 said:


> All of ur advices gave me some ideas what to do with my two evil nannies. And I also plan to talk to my local vet this Monday. And ask more questions. And I already ordered the tennis balls.
> 
> I do not eat my goats, I use them as breeding and as pet.
> 
> I'm also curious about the dehorned paste? But I'm not doing it on the adults. But I thinking to do on the babies goats. What your opinions about Dehorn paste?


If tennis balls are your long-term solution, you'll need a lot of them so you can keep taping new ones on. Full-sized tennis balls don't work well. You can usually find miniature ones used as fetch toys for small dogs in the pet section. It would probably be better to blunt the horns with a file than to try padding them.

Disbudding kids, whether with a hot iron or with paste is no picnic. We've done it both ways, including putting kids under anesthetic for the procedure and I feel brutal and barbaric no matter which way we do it. It's the only part of goat ownership that I truly hate, loathe, dread, and despise. There's a fair bit of technique involved in both procedures and scurs are the result when you mess up. I strongly recommend using banamine before disbudding no matter which method you use. It doesn't remove the pain, but it does dull it. If you use paste, there's no reason for it to get on things it shouldn't. Don't let your babies run around with paste on their heads. We put a piece of tape over the buds while the paste was on and we held the kids in our laps so they couldn't rub the tape off.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

New-goat-mom said:


> I think the important thing to know is that you are burning the horn buds off either way. One is a heat burn, one is a chemical burn. Naturally, the chemical burn is going to be slower and more dangerous, having much greater potential to burn somewhere you don't want to (like their eyes, mom's mouth, etc.). I am currently planning to keep all babies horned but if I find it hard to sell them with horns (I don't think I will because most goats I see here are horned) I will have to rethink it. If I ever did, I would have to go the heat route.


You said that much better then me. I totally agree!


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## HomerzMarcia (May 22, 2015)

capracreek said:


> Horns are like fingernails so cutting them does not hurt. We bought a hoof trimmer for horses and keep the sharp tips cut off. They are hard as nails but the dogs love them as a treat.


I am so glad you mentioned doing that, as that is what I've been thinking about. I have four kids born 8/16 and if I get them disbudded it has to be in the next day or so. I will keep the one doeling for milk, and probably her brother as a wether companion for my 1 1/2 year old buck who does not have horns - but does have small scurs he keeps knocking off by hitting things - - My two LaMancha does were disbudded before I bought them and I also got a Saanan buck that had his horns because of early illness when it was "disbudding time". The three were my first goats, so I got yearlings instead of babies. They all got along together, he did not try to hurt the girls but eventually had to have his own pen for other reasons. After satan tried to kill me last Sept - pulled my old truck off the road, into the ditch and up on neighbor's fence & yard - totaled it, and broke my neck in 2 places - - but GOD, is my healer and I'm back on my retirement "ranchette" with goats, donkeys, dogs and cats and loving every moment! My "adult" sons felt that Homer, the buck, was too strong for me to try and handle by myself, and they were afraid of his horns. I wasn't, but agreed to sell him to a friend of one of the local "goat ladies" who has helped me so much. So now I'm facing having the doeling disbudded - which I absolutely disagree with removing any animal's body parts, or take a chance with her and her horns and the other does. I was wondering why couldn't one file the tips down, as I've seen done to cattle and even put a pretty brass or other kind of tip on it? Tennis balls or dog toys sound fine to me for "decorations" - just to keep everybody safe, and I already had to buy pony hoof nippers to trim Homer's hoofs.
First babies last year were bucks, and I did sell them through auction - for meat. I would like to be a better steward of my "unusable" animals - but am not up to eating my own, yet - - - FYI - I learned this year that Muslim purchasers for meat want "intact" males - if I sell mine, they will be wethers.


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

Thank you Damfino - yes I only cut off the very sharp points about 2 inches down so at least the tips are not so pointy and sharp.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

HomerzMarcia...There are many things in your post to say "Uhmmm" to...I'll restrict myself to one this time.

This is a goat forum, not a Christian forum. We have many non Christian members, and we are all welcome so long as we abide by the forum rules.

In point of fact, preferring intact animals for meat is not a religious indicator. Many people like it. And castrating usually means removing a body part, yes?

All males I take to auction that are subpar for being a good herdsire are wethered. This is to prevent mediocre animals of mine being responsible for propagating more mediocre animals.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Banding to remove the horns banding consist of using castration bands and placing them down next to the head of the goat over the horn and allowing it to cut off the circulation going through the horn and actually killing the horn and it will eventually come off usually in a couple of weeks. However I only use it on young goats usually 6 months old or there about in age. It is painful for a couple of days as you can tell by their actions but then the nerves die and the pain is gone and the goat acts as though it is no longer in pain. However I would not recommend use on older goats. I have never banded a goat over 8 months old so I am not sure what the result would be or how fast it would work. Good luck


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

Banding is cruel. The paste is painful AND dangerous, can cause blindness if mis-applied. If you can't afford surgical de-horning, which has its own risks, you're stuck with horned goats. I tried tennis balls once, they came off in no time. Duct tape lasts longer. Wrap a lot of it around the horn tips until there is a nice ball of tape. You'll have to replace it about once a week or so.
You might also consider selling them into a herd of all horned goats.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You can't use paste on an established horn. Only right when the horn buds first start showing. Banding horns does work. Can take a couple months with adult horns and you have to replace the bands every couple weeks.


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## momto6ls (Aug 15, 2014)

TexasGoatMan said:


> Banding to remove the horns banding consist of using castration bands and placing them down next to the head of the goat over the horn and allowing it to cut off the circulation going through the horn and actually killing the horn and it will eventually come off usually in a couple of weeks. However I only use it on young goats usually 6 months old or there about in age. It is painful for a couple of days as you can tell by their actions but then the nerves die and the pain is gone and the goat acts as though it is no longer in pain. However I would not recommend use on older goats. I have never banded a goat over 8 months old so I am not sure what the result would be or how fast it would work. Good luck


Ugh! I wish I had read thru this forum before we started banding. My son did the research - didn't mention it was painful. He did the banding. We have a chorus of crying in the farm yard! (Some from banding, and some from being separated for weaning. LOL) Do you use anything for pain during those first days? I don't have access to Banamine, but I saw something for banding bucks that mentioned giving white willow. Does anyone know if that is effective on goats? And how much would I give 6 week old kids? About the same as an adult person?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Spending gobs of time reading threads on this site is one of the best things any of us can do!

There is a picture tutorial somewhere here about banding horns. It is very good, very complete. Almost makes me brave enough to try it myself!

If you can, please use Banamine. My vet will sell me a bottle when I say I need it, but not all will...

I am not anti willow at all, because I really see the value in it. However, in this case, I would be cautious, because willow is a really, really weak form of aspirin, and aspirin is a blood thinner. I don't know if you would have more bleeding or not, but it sounds plausible...

Banamine helps pain, reduces inflammation, and does not thin the blood, so if you can ask your vet, I'd go with the Banamine.

I hear you about the noise. We have does in heat, bucks in rut, and kids being weaned. It is non stop screaming all day here, and no one has horns banded. 

The pain is supposed to subside soon. Hang in there...


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