# OMG I just disbudded my first kids ...



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

... and of course I have questions!

It was pretty scary to do ... took me an hour to brace myself to actually do it! Luckily it seemed to bother me more than the babies. I mean sure they screamed horribly when the iron was actually on their heads, but once I took it off they just sat there looking around, and when I let them go they just sort of walked around exploring (cos I brought them into the house to do it).

Ok, so here's the story and questions. I will bold and underline the questions just so its easier to see in amongst the story lol Oh in case it is important, they are saanen x nubian buck kids, 4 days old. I could feel the little horn buds, they were quite tiny and kinda difficult to see even once I clipped their heads, but they were definitely there. *Is it possible to disbud too early?*

Baby #1. I dont know that I did a very good job to be honest. He wiggled a lot more than I anticipated, so I really only managed to hold the iron on for maybe 2 - 3 seconds initially. So what I did was to burn for a few seconds, then check (and blew on it), then burn for a few seconds, then check. After two of these I swapped to the other side and did the same. The first side I did bled a little - and I remembered Stacey saying that if they bleed they havent been burned long enough so I re-burned that side and the bleeding stopped.

Baby #2. I think I did a much better job, and I'm not really sure why. Although he did sit still a bit better (or I held a bit better). He does have a finer head than baby #1, baby #1 has a big boofy head if you know what I mean. With the first 3 second burn I immediately saw a white ring almost all the way round. Went to the other side and got about half a white ring. Went back to the first side and held for another four seconds applying pressure just to two parts that didnt have the white the first time. Went back to the second side and held for another four seconds rocking all the way around and got a complete white ring.

Ok, on both babies I didnt see a copper ring - it simply went from scorched hair to the white ring - *is it possible that I went straight through the copper ring directly to the white?* The iron was pretty damn hot, accidentally set my bit of wood on fire when I checked to make sure it would leave the black ring before starting, and the iron itself was glowing red, I'd had it on for 10 minutes plus the time it took to clip their heads, its an electric iron 240v if that helps. *Is it possible to have the iron too hot?* Kinda freaked me out when I set the wood on fire. *Or have I not burned far enough?* All four sites seemed to have a pretty good indent when I was finished.

Also on both babies, I didnt really manage to get the horn cap off - in fact I couldnt actually figure out what the horn cap was, because nothing in the middle of the burn was loose. *Is this because they were so young and the horn hadnt actually broken through? Or is it because I didnt burn enough?* What I ended up doing was burning an X across the middle of the burn, and then using the side of the iron to just burn the middle flat.

With both babies, there was a bit of clear oozing around the rings, *is this normal?* There wasnt blood, just clear fluid. Baby #1 had significantly more. *Is this ok or is it a sign that I didnt burn long enough?*

Now after the procedure, both babies seem to be doing fine. Baby #2 is acting like nothing ever happened. Baby #1 however is scratching at his burns, to the point that he has made them bleed. *Is this a sure sign that it wasnt done correctly?* Other than scratching he has had a little feed and a little snooze and seems happy enough, just a bit irritated on his head.

*At what age will scurs happen if they are going to have them?*

*Does any of what I am describing sound like there will be a problem with scurs? And if so should I re-burn in a few days when I do the girls, rather than leave them till they are bigger?*

Sorry for all the questions guys, there's just a hundred things flying through my head right now. Its been 2 hrs and I'm still shaking with the adrenaline. I guess it wasnt too bad, I was apologising to the babies the whole time and afterwards I needed a big cuddle from hubby and made a bourban and coke!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Oh dear, reading a few forum posts etc seems like the ooze is a sign I didnt do it long enough and they might end up with scurs


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

LOL, sounds like my first time Keren! If you notice, the kids make the same amount of noise when you are holding them still, as when you burn them. I'm glad you have help...my DH is getting pretty good at it...except he wants to wait too long to do it. This year we had some scurs to "retouch", which I hate, so maybe he will agree to do it earlier this time.

As long as you can feel a definite bud, and at 4 days for buck kids that sounds perfect to me.

Sounds like you got all the way to the skull, that's a bit past the copper ring stage. So, it should be good.

Yes, if it bleeds, burn it a little more.

The hotter the iron, the shorter you need to burn. A red hot iron is perfect.

I've had kids get a little "weepy", it doesn't last long and I haven't burned those again, someone else will give their advice here.

I always burn an X on the bud, the flatter it is the better.

When I burn kids, I count to 10, then I burn again, count to 5, then burn the bud. But, I'm burning kids at 7-10 days old (see first paragraph).

By the time they are 10-12 weeks old you will know if they are getting scurs, as soon as you see them, burn them again. Then you will know how you did, and what you need to do next time. You should be burning as each kid is ready, don't make one wait till the next 2 kids are ready. I've had kids that were "over due date" come out with really defined buds, and some tiny quads that weren't developed enough till maybe 6-7 days. So, each one is different.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Thanks Di, gosh I'm such a mess! Just all over the place. But, it has to be done. I just really hope these babies dont get scurs, cos they are all sold. I will have the new owners contact me ASAP if they see some horns/scurs growing. 

Man, before I did it I consoled myself with the fact that they would be screaming simply because they were restrained - but they didnt! They didnt care at all when I restrained them to shave the head, only when I put the iron on them 

Probably all up they got 10 - 14 seconds of burn time, but just with how wiggly they were (especially the first guy) and the fact that I was doing it by myself and not in a disbudding box, and the fact it was my first time, I found it easier to burn, check, burn, check, etc. 

Absolutely I am doing them as needed, not all at one time for my convenience. The bigger of the girl I can almost feel them, so maybe another day or two. The tiniest girl I cant feel a thing on her head so might be a few more days. These are my 4 day old quads, but there's a big variation in size between them.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok will try to answer all your questions

4 days is a fine age to do the kids

you didnt see the copper ring because your iron was very hot - not a bad thing, less time needed to burn and as long as you get down to the while its ok

As to the cap not coming off -- yes because you did them so early is harder and less likely for there to be a "cap" this is ok.

as to the oozing -- I would burn baby #1 again or you will have scurs. Just repeat what you did already. Its always hard to know on the first ones how much pressure you can put on but once you do it a couple times you know what you can do so that you dont kill them


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

THANK YOU Stacey! I am so grateful for your answers, as it is sort of what my gut feeling was! Turns out my instincts were leading me in the right path ... I kinda got the feeling with baby #1 that because he was so itchy, they werent proper 3rd degree burns, because he shouldnt have any feeling! I also figured it really shouldnt bleed like it did when he scratched it if it was burned properly. So shall I do him again tomorrow? I did them at 5pm and its now 10pm, I've done the final check on everyone and heading to bed. 

I'm so glad that its ok I didnt get the cap off ... I was just sitting there thinking what on earth is this cap thing? 

I didnt really put much pressure on the first go round, pretty much just let the iron do its thing, but when I went back I found I needed to put more pressure on whilst rocking to get the bits that had been missed. 

Thank you so much guys, I'm feeling a bit reassured now and I feel better about trusting my instincts. Poor baby boy having to be done again, but I figure twice at this age is probably better than doing him again when the scurs pop up  

One more question ... I asked these questions on an australian facebook group, and a lady pretty much told me I had done it all wrong and it was cruel to repeat the burns ... she said I should hold the iron on continuously for 10 or more seconds so it is just done in one burn for each side. SO what do you guys think? Is it ok to burn, repeat, burn, repeat until you have the good white ring? I did it this way because it seemed easier with wiggly kids and also I had read lots of sites including Fias Co Farm and Ashley's post here about holding for shorter intervals and repeating.


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## 8566 (Jul 18, 2012)

Hi Keren,

I'll try and fill in here ..... The scurs will grow just like normal horn cells. You'll see in the weeks to come if you need to reburn. Much easier to do this again when they are younger and just get after it a little more. Usually the scurs will be easy to burn around and then pop off. Once you have popped the scur off you can burn that area really well again.

For boys, I burn using a figure eight pattern because their bud area is larger than the doelings. That way I know I get it all including the scent area.

If it looks like I need to really get after someone, I will pretreat with Banamine for pain and swelling of the brain. I also sometimes give an herbal pain killer that is pretty much grain alcohol.

Sounds like you did a great job for your first go. :leap:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Thanks LilBleats  

These babies are all sold and supposed to go to their new homes at 1 - 2 weeks old ... I am not sure whether I should keep them for longer to keep an eye on the scur situation myself, or to just tell the new owners to keep an eye on it and contact me ASAP if they grow scurs so I can deal with it. 

I didnt worry about the figure eight burn because they will be pet wethers  Figured I'd better not do all the nasty stuff in one go though! I also need to tattoo them - will probably do that and green ring at the same time, a bit closer to the date they go to their new homes. 

I dont have banamine or herbal pain killer but honestly I dont think they need it - I gave them lots of cuddles, offered a bottle but they didnt want it which I expected, because they are trained well to an ad lib cold milk feeder.


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## Shellshocker66 (Mar 19, 2012)

I'm glad you posted this keren!

I've not done it by myself yet, but have watched it being done. I won't have babies for awhile but it is the one thing I dread the most and sounds like you took on the project and tackled it well!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

_Is it possible to disbud too early? _
For a full-sized breed, not usually. But I wouldn't disbud them on the first day. Some have to be done on the second day, though. Miniatures you can wait, just because they're 'lil.

_Baby #1. I dont know that I did a very good job to be honest. He wiggled a lot more than I anticipated, so I really only managed to hold the iron on for maybe 2 - 3 seconds initially. So what I did was to burn for a few seconds, then check (and blew on it), then burn for a few seconds, then check. After two of these I swapped to the other side and did the same. The first side I did bled a little - and I remembered Stacey saying that if they bleed they havent been burned long enough so I re-burned that side and the bleeding stopped. _ 
Same thing we did. We also got the blood and kept going until it stopped. No scurs yet on that one. ^-^

_Baby #2. I think I did a much better job, and I'm not really sure why. Although he did sit still a bit better (or I held a bit better). He does have a finer head than baby #1, baby #1 has a big boofy head if you know what I mean. With the first 3 second burn I immediately saw a white ring almost all the way round. Went to the other side and got about half a white ring. Went back to the first side and held for another four seconds applying pressure just to two parts that didnt have the white the first time. Went back to the second side and held for another four seconds rocking all the way around and got a complete white ring. _ 
Sounds perfect.

_Ok, on both babies I didnt see a copper ring - it simply went from scorched hair to the white ring - is it possible that I went straight through the copper ring directly to the white? _ 
Yes, it is.

_Is it possible to have the iron too hot? Kinda freaked me out when I set the wood on fire. Or have I not burned far enough? All four sites seemed to have a pretty good indent when I was finished. _ 
When the iron is hot, the whole process is quicker, so it sounds like this is a good thing.

_Also on both babies, I didnt really manage to get the horn cap off - in fact I couldnt actually figure out what the horn cap was, because nothing in the middle of the burn was loose. Is this because they were so young and the horn hadnt actually broken through? Or is it because I didnt burn enough? What I ended up doing was burning an X across the middle of the burn, and then using the side of the iron to just burn the middle flat. _ 
The only time we had a horn cap to pop off was with our three week boys, who we really wish we did younger. I think because yours were young they didn't have a real "nub" yet, which is fine.

_With both babies, there was a bit of clear oozing around the rings, is this normal? There wasnt blood, just clear fluid. Baby #1 had significantly more. Is this ok or is it a sign that I didnt burn long enough?_ 
A little oozing is a natural healing process, but a lot is a sign of an incomplete burn is what I've heard. I will tell you that the boy we did longest had no oozing at all, while the little girl we did twice did ooze a bit. Both do not have scurs.

_Now after the procedure, both babies seem to be doing fine. Baby #2 is acting like nothing ever happened. Baby #1 however is scratching at his burns, to the point that he has made them bleed. Is this a sure sign that it wasnt done correctly? Other than scratching he has had a little feed and a little snooze and seems happy enough, just a bit irritated on his head. _ 
I think there might be a little bit of live growth still in there.

_At what age will scurs happen if they are going to have them?_ 
One of our boys showed up with an itsy scur at four months. We're not re-burning him (already rehomed and we just wouldn't put him through it again at this age) as the scur is tiny, but that is around the age you start to see them I believe.

_Does any of what I am describing sound like there will be a problem with scurs? And if so should I re-burn in a few days when I do the girls, rather than leave them till they are bigger?_ 
If you are going to reburn, do it now. It'll be easier on the babies.

_Sorry for all the questions guys, there's just a hundred things flying through my head right now. Its been 2 hrs and I'm still shaking with the adrenaline. I guess it wasnt too bad, I was apologising to the babies the whole time and afterwards I needed a big cuddle from hubby and made a bourban and coke!_ 
I got sick after my first disbudding, don't feel bad. And don't worry about asking too many questions, that's what we're here for! =D[/quote]


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

sorry didnt respond sooner Keren - did you reburn the little guy? Im sure it went better this time if you did. 

Yes you can do short bits of a burn as long as you put good pressure with the couple seconds. Its all about getting the heat down to where it needs to be. Everyone has their own way of making that happen and Ive seen people do it simply and with much force and get the same results. You just need to know your iron and what you expect the horns to look like when the burn is complete.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Just had to respond to this as I just helped my son do his first burnings. They were two bucklings that are feezer bound; and as cruel as it may seem; he had to learn somewhere.
He could NOT leave the iron on for as long as I counted. I was laughing; he was crying. :GAAH: He is a kind, gentle (ex-Marine) and I could tell the baby's screaming upset him.
Of the four tries, only one came out perfect. The next month he was at our farm to witness how we do it. Next time I am sure he will do better. He got to see how the little buggers just go on about their business as soon as the iron is off.
We burn twice as soon as any evidence of scurs shows up. We try our best to get it on the first go though.
Good luck to you and congratulations. It is a tough job and my least favorite part of goat raising.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Thanks everyone. 

I fell asleep on the couch yesterday arvo - sleep deprived single mum.to quads who is also working full.time and commuting.an hour to work and home!! Lol so by the time i woke up i just fed, milked and went to bed. 

So this afternoon he will be reburned, and i think the larger of the doe kids is ready too. The tiny little one i cant feel.anythin on her head yet


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Update:- I just did five more disbuddings, well actually four disbuddings and that reburn I needed to do. I did the three saanen kids born yesterday (they had huge horn buds) and they seemed to go really well. Also did one of the week old quads, she seemed to go well at the time but is now scratching at the site and making it bleed  similar to the guy I did last time. I also reburned the guy from last time, he didnt seem to notice. I found the saanen skin so much different to work with than the nubian kids - the nubian skin was so slippery which is why I have trouble holding the iron still for a full 10 seconds. The saanen skin on the other hand seemed to 'grip' the iron and I was able to easily hold the iron on for a full 10 seconds. Got a good white ring on all four babies (got a copper ring on the re-burn victim). Only one more kid to go, the smallest quad doe hasnt got her horn buds yet. I guess time will tell how effective I have been (or otherwise)


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

It's all about practice. Next year should be even better. (=


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

We messed up quite a few in the beginning. It gets easier and we do a better job every year.
Congratulations.


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