# Hermaphrodite Goat - more on female side - polled Myotonic



## Tallistrailblzr (Aug 10, 2015)

We are new to this goat breeding thing - we have myotonic fainting goats and just found out from our vet why our little female goat is having problems peeing at 3 months. Turns out she is a hermaphrodite. The little penis is sticking out and up from the vagina. Now, the vet said she is fully hermaphroditic which means she has a vagina, ovaries and an utter, as well as a penis and testicles. He said that she should still be able to be bred as a female and we should consider amputating the penis. Everything I read says that all hermaphrodites are sterile. What is the truth?? I hope she is sterile because I don't want to pass this through breeding and definitely don't want to get rid of her. She's my pet out of all of them.


----------



## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

Following this!


----------



## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

I have always read that they are sterile as well. Wondering how he knows she has ovaries and will develop an udder? Are her testicles descended? 

It seems like most hermaphrodites have vaginas that lead to nothing, if that makes sense. I forget what it's called but there's something you can use to measure the vaginal opening to find out if she has a uterus or not...

Why did he want to amputate the penis?


----------



## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Just sold my hermie at market - got a great price right now for meat. She/he was more female, even went into season, but was a buddy for our buck. Never took even though he bred her multiple times. I would say it's not worth the expense, possible genetic malformation and other problems in the long run.
She was never meant to be really bred, served her purpose as a companion and is now where she should be.


----------



## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

How did the vet come to this idea? I don't see how if it's a he she that it would be able to have babies. Now correct me if I'm wrong this is going off that show House but don't we all start out as dudes and our testies turn into ovaries? Hopefully goat hiker comes on soon she would be my go to on this


----------



## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Jessica84 said:


> How did the vet come to this idea? I don't see how if it's a he she that it would be able to have babies. Now correct me if I'm wrong this is going off that show House but don't we all start out as dudes and our testies turn into ovaries? Hopefully goat hiker comes on soon she would be my go to on this


I think it's the other way around, we all start out female, hence the nipples on men. :think:


----------



## Tallistrailblzr (Aug 10, 2015)

Here she is on day 1!


----------



## Tallistrailblzr (Aug 10, 2015)

Well, he felt around on her underside and said he could feel ovaries. There are testes, a penis and the vagina all in one spot. The reason he wanted to amputate is because instead of the penis being underneath where it should be, it is sticking out of the vagina straight up so she sprays pee everywhere all over her. that would help her urinate properly. He said there are psuedo hermaphrodties that only have one or the other sex with traces of the other but she has all of both making her fertile. I hope she is not fertile. I am afraid to pass this on. The more I read, it is not all that uncommon, but I can't help thinking it is a terrible thing to breed. I looked into spaying, but goats do not do well with anesthesia. Also, it is probably $300-$400. I really hate it. She was my first farm bred baby and is in your pocket sweet...not to mention adorable. Any thoughts? Anyone spayed before?


----------



## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

If the testes are real, they will be pumping testosterone into it's system, which will make it difficult to keep a pregnancy if it even allows the normal production of eggs and hormones to bring her/him in heat. When testosterone gets into a developing doe kids system, it renders her sterile (freemartin), so I can't imagine this would be much different.


----------



## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

You can't feel ovaries externally....

If you really want her as a pet and she needs the surgery to urinate and have good quality of life then go ahead.

I would get rid of the testes too.

I really doubt she could be fertile.

Is this a real vet? With any life stock or goat experience. Or any reproductive experience in that matter?

We start out female and then if you have a Y it starts sending signals that cause the production of androgens that cause the "ovaries" to drop and other male characteristics to developer. Around week 8-10 of gestation I believe.


----------



## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Tallistrailblzr said:


> Well, he felt around on her underside and said he could feel ovaries. There are testes, a penis and the vagina all in one spot. The reason he wanted to amputate is because instead of the penis being underneath where it should be, it is sticking out of the vagina straight up so she sprays pee everywhere all over her. that would help her urinate properly. He said there are psuedo hermaphrodties that only have one or the other sex with traces of the other but she has all of both making her fertile. I hope she is not fertile. I am afraid to pass this on. The more I read, it is not all that uncommon, but I can't help thinking it is a terrible thing to breed. I looked into spaying, but goats do not do well with anesthesia. Also, it is probably $300-$400. I really hate it. She was my first farm bred baby and is in your pocket sweet...not to mention adorable. Any thoughts? Anyone spayed before?


I spoke to my vet about spaying a goat and she said it was not a great idea. When you do a c section everything is enlarged and accessible. A dry does uterus is tucked in the pelvic area and more difficult to get to. She didn't say impossible just a lot harder.

Def make sure whoever does it has done a goat surgery before and knows what they are doing.


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

I read somewhere that there tends to be a higher occurrence of hermaphroditism in polled goats. Not sure why. IMO you definitely don't want to breed this girl -- even if she is fertile -- due to increased risk of passing this on. Keep her as a pet and enjoy her if you like. She's a lovely!


----------



## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

I would definitely research the polledxpolled linked to hermaphrodites. It is my understanding that polledxpolled breedings can produce hermies, but it is just as common in normally horned goats as well. I know of many breeders who breed polled to polled and have not had an issue. I breed polled to polled, no issues. Are you sure she has both genitalia? Does she actually have a scrotum and testes? If she does have testes and they are in the abdominal cavity, they will be too warm to produce sperm and can actually cause issues. I definitely would not breed her, are her parents both polled? Are these registered Myotonic stock?


----------



## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

I hate to say it but I don't think your vet knows what he's talking about. There's no way he can feel her ovaries. Undescended testicles he could feel. And if she has working testicles then her fertility as a female is highly unlikely as her hormones will be all off whack. 

Do you have a picture by chance?


----------



## OpieDoodle (Nov 15, 2015)

I've never heard of being able to feel ovaries on any animal externally. I would look into a second opinion because I'm really not sure if this vet knows what they're talking about.


----------



## Tallistrailblzr (Aug 10, 2015)

Good Morning everyone. Thanks for the responses! Here's the answers to most of your questions:

Yes it is a well-known reputable vet, but he doesn't specialize in goats. 

The testes and penis are both located in the opening of her vagina. The testes are green peen sized and the penis is located where she pees but is pointed straight up. That causes her pee to come out upwards.

The vet recommended amputation of the tiny rice - sized penis to help her urinate downwards. He said the little testes shouldn't bother anything and would be fine to leave.

I do not plan to breed her at all. I do not find that advisable in these situations. I just found it odd that someone - not just my vet but several articles I read _ said that she can still be a fully functionally breeding doe. I won't breed her though.

Just looking at her, she is not emasculated at all. She is very feminine looking and all her lady parts look normal. You have to sort of roll out the boy parts to see them.

They are not registered, but are 100% myotonic. We did not get them for breeding, we got them to clear brush. It just turns out some came pregnant and we didn't know.

I read the same thing about spaying goats being really risky. I just hate to keep her separated all the time, but we might just get rid of the buck instead.

I don't have any pictures because it has been raining nonstop since we found out. I will try to post some when I can get them.

Thanks everyone!


----------



## jmez61690 (Jun 16, 2015)

Tallistrailblzr said:


> The testes are green peen sized


:laugh:


----------



## Riverside Fainters (Feb 6, 2013)

Thank you for answering the questions we asked! It is definitely a weird outcome. Is there maybe a blood test you could do to actually confirm? See if she is a hermie? I know they have tests for cattle to see if they are freemartins or not.


----------



## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Do you own both the dam and sire of the hermaphrodite? I would certainly not repeat the breeding. If they are running together since the hermaphrodite was born, the dam may already be pregnant again.

It sounds like you trust your vet. If you want to keep her as a pet, and he thinks removing the micro-penis will improving her urination, then I would go ahead with that and then just never ever breed her to any buck. If you run bucks with your herd full time, I would send her to butcher. Some may suggest selling her as a pet - but you can never guarantee that a pet home will keep her forever and not sell her to someone else who will breed her.


----------



## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Tallistrailblzr said:


> Good Morning everyone. Thanks for the responses! Here's the answers to most of your questions:
> 
> Yes it is a well-known reputable vet, but he doesn't specialize in goats.
> 
> ...


Did he really say he could feel her ovaries?
Because that's straight up impossible on any species...

I'd seriously question anything he said if he told me that.


----------



## Tallistrailblzr (Aug 10, 2015)

I wasn't at the vet visit. My husband went so I will confirm that with him about feeling the ovaries. She will be separated from the buck. We do not own her father. Her mother is naturally polled.


----------



## thegoatmama (Mar 19, 2015)

Tallistrailblzr said:


> Here she is on day 1!


What an absolute doll! I love that face and her markings are great. I agree with you, she looks very feminine.

I have a question. With the micro-penis being in the way, is it obstructing urination or just making her messy?
Since she's already your pet and if you can afford it and if it's a life-threatening obstruction, I'd have the micro-penis removed.
If its not, I'd leave her be and just plan on bathing her every so often. You may need to plan on removing testicles if they continue to develop.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Oregon State University has testing to determine if a goat is a Free Martin or Hermie for sure and possibility of breeding. It's about $50. 

Intersex and teat deformities are the most common of all birth defects in all species, including humans. They are usually caused by environmental issues, not heredity.


----------



## Tallistrailblzr (Aug 10, 2015)

Yes I plan on removal of both the testes and penis to help her be comfortable, urinate properly and be as unconfused as possible


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Awww poor baby, she is adorable! Do you have any updated pics of her? Do you have any pics of her rear end that you could share? Nature is always fascinating! We had a hermie last year, she was from a set of quads & had 3 brothers, so we knew the odds were against her. She didn't start showing any changes until she was about 4mo, suddenly she started getting a masculine look. 

IMO, if you can correct her urinary issue with removing the penis, that's what I would do. I'd also see about getting rid of the testies, I think overall she'd probably be a better pet without testosterone running through her. 
I'd definitely not ever try breeding her, and wouldn't repeat the breeding.

Just curious though, if I've missed anything in the posts - is she a single? has her parents been bred to each other before with normal outcome?


----------



## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Tallistrailblzr said:


> I wasn't at the vet visit. My husband went so I will confirm that with him about feeling the ovaries. She will be separated from the buck. We do not own her father. Her mother is naturally polled.


Maybe something was lost in translation hehe


----------



## Tallistrailblzr (Aug 10, 2015)

@HoosierShadow, I do not have any pictures of the parts because we just found out Monday and it has been raining cats and dogs all week. I will post some soon though. The weather is clearing up this weekend. She was a single birth. I bought her mom when she was VERY pregnant (a week out) so I have no idea which of their bucks bred any of my does. They left them together all the time so they did not even realize the other two does I bought were pregnant when I bought them too. They only had myotonics though and they are purebred - just not registered. Summer just turned 4 months December 1st so that is when most of the hermie's start changing.


----------



## Tallistrailblzr (Aug 10, 2015)

Still haven't gotten good pics...I will post them as soon as I can.


----------



## Tallistrailblzr (Aug 10, 2015)

Here's the pictures. You can see there is the lady part - then the male part is sticking out and you can grab it-I only did that for the picture so you can see.. Weird...


----------



## thegoatmama (Mar 19, 2015)

:thinking:That is seriously weird.


----------



## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

It is not impossible to palpate internal organs, even ovaries.


----------



## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Well, it is in this case since you can't tell what they are. Most Pseudo males have testes where the ovaries should be and that is a pretty classic and fairly common example of one. A true hermie has all the parts exactly where they belong, including testes. He isn't fertile either way...


----------



## Onion-Creek-Oberhaslis (Sep 25, 2013)

Not sure if you would know, but were both of her parents polled? How closely are they related?


----------



## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Wow, very odd!


----------



## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

The hermie I had was one of quads, 3 does and a buck. There was the hermie he/she, a Freemartin and a normal doe. Neither of the parents were polled. No polled history on either side!


----------



## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

Huh,Very strange!


----------

