# The responsibility for their lives and deaths



## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

This is an open discussion thread, not so much me looking for advice. An invitation to share your path and experiences, what has changed for you etc.

We may come from different upbringings and have different approaches to keeping animals, some of us have goats as pets, others raise them for meat, and many of us have a combination of reasons and uses for our goats and other animals. But we all have to deal, one way or another, with looking after our creatures’ lives and deaths.
When I decided to keep chickens and goats, I discussed with my partner that we want to take the responsibily of their lives in our hands very seriously.
Even though we don’t normally eat meat, we had decided that when raising laying hens, we would take care of butchering the roosters, and when raising dairy goats, we would take care of butchering bucklings we cannot keep.
In theory that was a lot easier than in real life.
It seems we have come to the point of realizing how very hard it is to take an animals life.
(But, The idea of taking animals to the sales yard is even more horrible to me.)
So, Gonzalo the rooster gets to live.
But what about the future bucklings?
The first 2 bucklings we kept, because they were our first ever babies. They became wethers and are companions.
I am hoping to find loving homes for the next bucklings, but what if I can’t?
Will I become like one of the goat people I visited who had a herd of whethers as big as her herd of does, because they were all her friends? 
Or will I look for a humane way to have bucklings turned into food?

Please share your thoughts, and no judgements, please, we are all different!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

MadHouse said:


> It seems we have come to the point of realizing how very hard it is to take an animals life.


I think this is the ground for Goat Maths. Which can grow into a disaster. This is, in my opinion, one of the very most important themes we have to think through before even traveling to _look_ at a puppy or a kitten! So much more when it comes to "producing" animals, like chicken or sheep.

Or goats.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

For me...I have an ideal goat in my mind. I am looking to combine genetics to create a new breed. Its pupose will be to generate meat. To butcher a calf..you are in average looking at about $1k..a goat about $300. The quality of the meat in comparison ..goat is much more healthy. So to me, a less income family..could afford a better quality food.. which is unheard of in our Greed Motivated Society. 
I also have small myotonics. For pets, for youth and just a good weedeater, that will be a friend for life.
I have 10 acres. That restricts the number of goats I can RESPONSIBLY raise. To be fair and keep them healthy I have to limit my number. 
I post mine on websites to reach the best person I can find. My last resort is the Sale barn. But even then. I have done my best to my preciouse goats. Ive cried a few times. But I do the best I can to give my goats the best I can. Even in the hard decisions.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

We really do have to make some tough decisions in this adventure we have going on. Realistically I can not keep animals that do not pull their weight. I wish I had a endless supply of money and time but I don’t. So it’s not fair to my girls to possibly go without or risk having them all be sent down the road for ones that I can’t get a return out of. Yeah that sounds like I have never had a hard time not keeping one but I have had many I have really tried to justify keeping before I realized I just couldn’t do it.
For me I dread pet homes. Don’t get me wrong I have sold to ones that have been wonderful homes! But I see so many down right hard headed clueless people wanting pets. Ones that don’t get they have to have shelter, they can’t live off of garbage and they need to be kept safe. Yeah sometimes people need to learn things the hard way but I don’t really want them learning off of a baby that I delivered and worked so dang hard to keep alive and healthy.
For me my avenue is the sale yard. To sell directly to butcher that is a 3 hour drive. That’s 6 hours I’m away, and 6 hours I’m burning gas. I tried selling to people who want to butcher their own but they want them way cheaper then they can get them at the sale and I have to explain 101 times why I don’t want them butchered in my back yard. I cant afford to give animals away. I have bills that need to be covered.
There is 2 sale yards that I can go to and I absolutely refuse to go to the one! I do not like how they handle their animals. Everyone’s animals go in one pen, there is fighting and molesting and so on. I also once told a kid that if he hit a blind doe in the face with his paddle one more time I was going to repay the favor. The other place everyone’s animals get their own pen until sold then every buyer gets their own pen. The animals are handled as easy as possible. They have even gotten onto people about not treating the animals they purchased badly or refuse to let them haul animals in any way that is not safe. So although yeah I have no doubt they are scared and stressed while there they are not abused. Most of the buyers what they buy is their dinner for that week. So no long drawn out suffering, neglect or starving.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

That roo is gonna end up hurting you or your partner from the other post i read on it. So in reality... to me at least... he is so not worth that risk. Those spurs will do a lot of damage in a small amount of time. 

As far as taking a life. If you cannot do it take it to a processor. My husband does the deed because i cannot do it. But i help with all of the rest of taking care of it. It works for us. Here a goat is $75 to process. You can either sell that meat or take it to a shelter or find a food bank. They will gladly take burger meat. You can sell wethers for cheap and still make a bit of money off them. Many ethnic groups need goat at certain times of the year for their holidays. Look for those holidays on the calendar and try to sell them then. Recently mama had a few men workin at her home and saw our goats. They asked me if i wanted to sell any for meat. The man they usually get theirs from charges them $150 per goat ready to process weight.


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## Chelsey (Dec 7, 2018)

Please be careful with that rooster and small children. I’ve seen several roos attack kids. On my place, aggressive animals are eaten by something or someone. My dog appreciates the fresh meat if I can’t handle it. My MIL was recently very distressed that we had planned on killing and eating our turkey Tom. As we explained it, besides having bought him to eat, there wasn’t enough space for all three turkeys, and having two toms to one hen would kill her by overbreeding. She wanted us to build another pen for the second Tom. I don’t have time or money for pets. Everything has a purpose. When we raise an animal for meat, I know everything that goes into it. I know that meat will be the healthiest for my family. The animal is raised in as much comfort as I can give it. Clean housing, fresh water, good food, and love from me and my children. My husband kills it quickly and together we butcher. I’ve cried over animals as I’ve butchered them. Some of them I loved. Sometimes I can keep myself emotionally distant, sometimes I can’t. Having someone butcher for you is a good idea. I can’t kill my animals. I believe that if the need was great enough, I could, but for now, while my husband is able, I don’t need to. Our local butcher will come to your property, take the animal and have packages ready for pick up in a few days, all for $90. I’m not saying you have to do it my way. I grew up butchering animals with my dad, so I’m in a way, used to it. If you can afford plenty of pets, then good for you! There are breeds of dairy goats that can ‘milk through’. Meaning that they can be milked for more than one season. A quality LaMancha, for example can be milked for a couple years! That would save you having to breed every season, and you can buy adult hens to eliminate you raising roosters.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I have a dairy herd and ship milk. So, ideally, I milk 75 does. That is about, well, a lot of kids! 117 last yr. 75% were the sweetest baby bucks. 

I cannot bring myself to drown a newborn. (Many dairies do). I had an arrangement to make sure all had 24 + hrs of colostrum, were started on a bottle, had Vit. B complex and BO-SE (if needed) and then an Amish guy picked them up and fed them out to slaughter weight. I wasn't making much, but didn't have to feed or raise them. It kind of worked out. But, I'm not confident they had a good life. 

I've tried raising wethers, but, you get so attached, it's hard to sell them at the sale. Good money, but I hate sales. They are a necessary evil, our local one is as good as any, but... It's still a sale.

I plan at least 6 months ahead on what to do with kids. This year is proving difficult. A hay shortage is spooking people. Another bad year and I'll have to cut my herd in half.

One guy buys kids, raises them and turns them into brush eating goats. Then sells them at the sale.

I guess I do most of the needed killing, unless it's a really special goat. Yes, I cry over each one. But sometimes death is favorable to whatever is the serious problem. I hate killing, but, they have the best life I could give them and one really bad moment.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Chelsey said:


> I've cried over animals as I've butchered them. Some of them I loved.


So have I, and I think most people with emotions have.


Chelsey said:


> Having someone butcher for you is a good idea.


Indeed. Especially if it is done at the goats' home.


Chelsey said:


> I'm not saying you have to do it my way.


Exactly!  Still, there are lots to discuss! Here are my "2 cents":

In this country, we have had an old "contract" with our animals:

People provide food, protection, and love.
Animals return food, protection, and love.



Goats Rock said:


> I cannot bring myself to drown a newborn. (Many dairies do).


mg:mg:mg:


Goats Rock said:


> I guess I do most of the needed killing, unless it's a really special goat. Yes, I cry over each one. But sometimes death is favorable to whatever is the serious problem. I hate killing, but, they have the best life I could give them and one really bad moment.


It has not to be bad at all, let us have a thread on this!


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## whitejerabias (May 6, 2019)

I have a story about this. We took home the chickens that my younger child raised in their classroom this spring. Out of the dozen, 11 hatched and 6 turned into roosters. 2 wandered off and 3 we butchered. My child, who hand raised these animals, insisted on being part of the process. They were the person to go to the coop and take them off the roost and calm them down before handing them to us the cut their throat. Even in tears the responsibility of ensuring that they passed over to our freezer calmly. I was so impressed by their ability to see beyond their self and what they needed and to see that in that moment how the animal felt was more important than how sad they were.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Thank you, @whitejerabias! This story is of a strong individual with a strong feeling for others. Congratulations to having encountered such a wonderful person!    Please tell her I am very impressed!

But another time, please make the animal _unconscious_ before cutting any part of it! Please! A small animal like a chicken can easily be made unconscious with a hard blow on the head, although I myself prefer the "humane killer", but that is because I am used to it.


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## Chelsey (Dec 7, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> I myself prefer the "humane killer", but that is because I am used to it.


What is a 'humane killer'? An interesting addition. My grandfather, a missionary in his prime, once told me a story about how people in Nicaragua think Americans are barbaric for letting an animal bleed out. Their preferred method is quite a bit more barbaric in my opinion. (I'll only share that method if asked to, please express it if you would like to not hear something like that in this thread). They also have an interesting way of honoring the animal. The method my husband and I prefer is a firearm, we feel it's the quickest way.


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## Steampunked (Mar 23, 2015)

I have a humane killer for chickens - The Morrigan. It's a foolproof device that separates the neckbones of the chicken, but can be used calmly and without pain for the animal. No choking, no fear, no uncertainty - instant lights out. No worries from the human that you might pull too hard (erf, I've done that) or too light (and really cause that poor bird terrible pain). It was not cheap, but it was worth it. We use it on roosters who have started to be jerks or other fowl who are in a bad way and not responding to treatment.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Chelsey said:


> Their preferred method is quite a bit more barbaric in my opinion. (I'll only share that method if asked to, please express it if you would like to not hear something like that in this thread). They also have an interesting way of honoring the animal.


If nobody objects, I would like to hear about that.
If objections, @Chelsey would you message me?
I think, as hard as this topic is (and for me, very very hard), it is so important to learn as much as possible.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Steampunked said:


> I have a humane killer for chickens - The Morrigan. It's a foolproof device that separates the neckbones of the chicken, but can be used calmly and without pain for the animal. No choking, no fear, no uncertainty - instant lights out. No worries from the human that you might pull too hard (erf, I've done that) or too light (and really cause that poor bird terrible pain). It was not cheap, but it was worth it. We use it on roosters who have started to be jerks or other fowl who are in a bad way and not responding to treatment.


I tried to find the Morrigan humane killer online, but it looks like it is not available anymore.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

MadHouse said:


> If nobody objects, I would like to hear about that.
> If objections, @Chelsey would you message me?
> I think, as hard as this topic is (and for me, very very hard), it is so important to learn as much as possible.


Unless it is really gruesome!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Chelsey said:


> What is a 'humane killer'?


https://vetmed.iastate.edu/vdpam/ab...uthanasia/gunshot-or-penetrating-captive-bolt
Scroll down to Penetrating Captive Bolt.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

We had that discussion this year. We can't feed unproductive animals here. (Our dogs are already unproductive enough...lol). I read a book where they said to drown unwanted bucks right after they are born, which made me sick to my stomach. I'd much rather get them going and then sell as a group to an individual that would raise them for meat. We planned this year if we had a surplus of wethers that we can't sell, we'd process them. I already have talked to myself that any males are meat animals, like our cornish cross birds we do every year. I can are for them kindly, but I know they aren't our pets...helps me distinguish it. But also my husband handles the processing of animals. I help pack it up after they're all cleaned. 

For us, putting them in the freezer makes them a productive animal. We either spend money feeding them forever because we can't deal with where they go....or we gain by giving them a good short life and then they give us life and we spend less $$ on food feeding THEM and feeding US.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Chelsey said:


> I'll only share that method if asked to.


I suspect all kinds of brutality when you write like that!  If you do not want to write about it in a thread, please give a short description in a Conversation, and I shall be able to tell if it is as bad as I suspect! 


Steampunked said:


> separates the neckbones of the chicken


Sounds very painful to me. The *brain* must be out in a hundredth of a second!


MadHouse said:


> If nobody objects, I would like to hear about that.
> If objections, @Chelsey would you message me?
> I think, as hard as this topic is (and for me, very very hard), it is so important to learn as much as possible.


I do not object, but what if the forum admin does, or - which is maybe worse - the descriptions frighten off future readers?


MadHouse said:


> Unless it is really gruesome!


Some methods really are ...


Jubillee said:


> ....or we gain by giving them a good short life ...


Exactly according to the contract!  We provide certain things they need, including a good death, and they produce for us. This contract is not even, but it is a contract!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

we have a motto here, "a great life and one bad day" We process birds, rabbit and small animals here and we take larger animals to the butcher, such as a cow. We have two pig now my boys want to process themselves. I appreciate they are humane and quick with the hard job. 
It just is not practical to keep all the animals. We moved to this life to raise our own meat, eggs and milk. We knew what that meant. We do have boundaries, such as We do not make my youngest son participate in rabbit processing since he spends every day feeding them and loving on them. He knows their fate but offers them a wonderful life until their bad day. We say bad day, but because the rabbits are so tame, they have no fear and don't know what is about to happen, which is really fast. Although our chickens are not so tame, and are stressed that day but again, we treat them humanly as we can on such a day. 
Feeding my family what we have grown, or raised here is far better then anything we can purchase in store.



Trollmor said:


> People provide food, protection, and love.
> Animals return food, protection, and love.


YES!!

When it comes to sick goats, I will euthanize before allowing one to suffer. It took years to understand this as a loving response. I would think, " but maybe they will rally" allowing them to suffer too long before they finally die on their own. No longer, I know the signs of a goat on deaths door. It's not easy to shoot a beloved goat. But I have to remove my own feelings from the picture and think of what is best for the animal.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

My 2 goats are strictly pets, and I have worked hard to keep them from breeding. My view is this, as humans we are their guardian. Food, protection, love, diet, and direction. You ultimately are responsible for the animal and what happens with it. If they breed, then you have to take control of it, if you dont want more, you have to do the needful. 

and ill never eat mine, lol i told the kids, they'll go before the go-tees


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Jessica84 said:


> I also once told a kid that if he hit a blind doe in the face with his paddle one more time I was going to repay the favor.


I love it!!

It was never easy but we have always preferred butchering our own animals. The few that I have sold I have never quit wondering how their life turned out. So no matter how sad I can feel; I believe it is better to butcher an animal that I cannot keep.
As to surplus bucklings; we raised them to about 80 pounds or so and then off to the Rainbow 'Fridge. We even had to do it with does as we would just have too many and I had my four milkers.
The one year that we let the herd get away from us we had all sorts of overcrowding issues. We lost several to cocci and listeria. After that we made sure that we did not keep too many just because the were beautiful or sweet.
All that being said; it is the Hubby to actually dispatches the animals. Once they are dead I can handle the processing.
It is interesting to hear the different perspectives.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Yes, it very interesting to hear the different perspectives.
Thank you all for sharing!
I am also having this discussion with meat raising farmers and backyard goat farmers in our area.
It seems to be the hardest part for most of us.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

happybleats said:


> we have a motto here, "a great life and one bad day" We process birds, rabbit and small animals here and we take larger animals to the butcher, such as a cow. We have two pig now my boys want to process themselves. I appreciate they are humane and quick with the hard job.
> It just is not practical to keep all the animals. We moved to this life to raise our own meat, eggs and milk. We knew what that meant. We do have boundaries, such as We do not make my youngest son participate in rabbit processing since he spends every day feeding them and loving on them. He knows their fate but offers them a wonderful life until their bad day. We say bad day, but because the rabbits are so tame, they have no fear and don't know what is about to happen, which is really fast. Although our chickens are not so tame, and are stressed that day but again, we treat them humanly as we can on such a day.
> Feeding my family what we have grown, or raised here is far better then anything we can purchase in store.
> 
> ...


This should be repeated again an again! Thank you! I could add, that the meat tastes much better when I know that the animal has been well treated.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

happybleats said:


> Feeding my family what we have grown, or raised here is far better then anything we can purchase in store.





MadCatX said:


> My 2 goats are strictly pets, and (...) ill never eat mine


I believe we must respect one another's emotions. Personally, I am convinced that the animals are not interested in what happens to their bodies after they are dead.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Jessica84 said:
I also once told a kid that if he hit a blind doe in the face with his paddle one more time I was going to repay the favor.


luvmyherd said:


> I love it!!


So do I! (I am afraid I would not warn, not wait for any next time, and not bother if the goat can see or not, just lift the vermin in the arm and throw it away!)


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I have butchered rabbits sheep goats hogs and cows. I hated doing it every time. I went to the gun range many times so i would kill humanely. 
I hate to admit it but 
killing for meat is easier to me than putting down a sick animal.
When i have to put an animal down.
I always feel like i blew it.
I feel that if i had only found it earlier.
Realized what the problem was sooner. 
Had more skills
I always start by saying 
I'm sorry


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

fivemoremiles said:


> I have butchered rabbits sheep goats hogs and cows. I hated doing it every time. I went to the gun range many times so i would kill humanely.
> I hate to admit it but
> killing for meat is easier to me than putting down a sick animal.
> When i have to put an animal down.
> ...


Having to put down a sick animal is something I feel more urgent to learn than slaughtering one for meat. (Probably because I don't eat meat).


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

This is one reason that one of my main goals with breeding is to get does with long lactations that produce a good amount. Eventually, I'd just like to keep them in milk for a long while and not breed them which leads to not having to re-home the kids. 

We haven't had a sick one yet that we had to put down. I can't do any of that stuff and leave it to my husband. I don't even like watching him do the meat chickens and we've done them for a few years now. No matter what, it's always sad. I tend to think maybe we have a problem if we get to a point where there is no emotion when we have to do these things. It keeps us connected.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> I believe we must respect one another's emotions. Personally, I am convinced that the animals are not interested in what happens to their bodies after they are dead.


Thats great for you, but I put mine in the ground like a loved one.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Everyone is being respectful so far. But remember to keep it friendly, keep it fun. No personal attacks. Respect all views.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

fivemoremiles said:


> I hated doing it every time.


Welcome in the gang! 


MadHouse said:


> Having to put down a sick animal is something I feel more urgent to learn than slaughtering one for meat. (Probably because I don't eat meat).


More reasons to your list why it is more urgent: A meat animal that does not keep its head still can be left to live for another day. A sick animal can not. We tend to be more emotional with a sick, possibly already suffering animal.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I have a harder time with putting down a sick animal too. The main reason being that none of the butcher animals have to fall on me to do the deed. I’m the one that feeds them and tends to them, my dad or my husband can do their part. I have a serious fear of them not dying after the first shot. 
But with the butcher animals there’s also a huge amount of time that everyone knows what is going to need to be done. With a sick one it’s just kinda out of the blue. I also hate making the call on when that fine line between keep fighting and have mercy on them. But I also have a cow named Jinx running around that I made the call to put her down and when I went out into the field she said not today and was up. So talk about screwing with my head!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

@Jubillee: Well said! 


MadCatX said:


> Thats great for you, but I put mine in the ground like a loved one.


And that is great for you! 

@ksalvagno: Oh yes, we are friendly, don't worry! But the topic is not exactly fun.


Jessica84 said:


> I have a serious fear of them not dying after the first shot.


Yes, we have. Those (out there) who haven't, I fail to call human! 


Jessica84 said:


> I also hate making the call on when that fine line between keep fighting and have mercy on them.


This is the classic dilemma! (headsmash)


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## ReNat (Jan 20, 2019)

The first goat I killed when the dog tore her udder, wait a minute, one of my favorite goats. And I understood the meaning of the words "what I give you to eat, do not consider inedible."


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

@ReNat: What a terrible beginning of your "killing career"!


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## ReNat (Jan 20, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> @ReNat: What a terrible beginning of your "killing career"!


Yes, it is, my vet said this girl has no chance, only meat. It was the first fully conscious murder. I put her on the table, tied her legs, gave my goat her portion of grain, then when she had eaten, I said a prayer to her, told her what green meadows await her in the next, in the afterlife, and with one movement slaughtered her. She died quietly and quietly. then I skinned it and divided it into portions and put it in the freezer.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

I can't and won't kill. That job falls to my husband. I do the skinning and processing myself, but I can't kill. For illnesses, I'm horrible. I fight til the last moment to save them. I have 1 now that probably should be put down, but as long as they are breathing and fighting, then so am I. 

As for getting rid of them, I send mine to the sale barn. I think of it as- To keep the ones I want, the others have to go to buy the feed. It hurts to let go some of them, but once they are gone, I can't get them back. I sell a couple private sale to 4H kids or private sale but rarely and usually as bottle babies.


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## ReNat (Jan 20, 2019)

That is to say, everyone's motives are different, but that's life to someone live, someone has to give life to another being . 

And not the fact that plants do not have intelligence.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

ReNat said:


> That is to say, everyone's motives are different, but that's life to someone live, someone has to give life to another being .
> 
> And not the fact that plants do not have intelligence.


Good to see ya Ruskie


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

This is a great thread as it discusses something every goat owner or any animal owner is faced with sooner or later. When I first got goats and chickens, I was determined never to sell goats for meat and never to eat the chickens. The first 12 chickens all had names, and they never did get eaten, they all died of old age, very old too! But after I started hatching chicks, the majority were roosters and there was a lot of fighting so they were eaten when they were old enough. All of the young roosters I hatched were eaten, with the exception of a particularly promising looking one who was given away or kept as a new flock leader. And when it was time to bring in a young rooster, the old one had to go. The hens always died on their own because by the time they were done laying eggs, they were really too tough to eat, so they got buried in the garden. I had no problem killing the roosters though. They were pretty tasty and it was better for them. When you have 8 roosters and 40-50 hens, there is a lot of fighting and most of them were not having an easy time of it, so they had to be kept penned and even then, sometimes they would get pecked through the wire by the main rooster.

While I never sold a goat for meat, I wish I had now. A lot of them would have been better off that way when I was raising unregistered. I sold a lot of wethers to pet homes that I thought were very good. I made sure they knew all about goat care and what they were getting into. I think they all regretted getting goats within a year of getting them. They realized they were a commitment, and not every pet sitter will take care of goats when you want to go on vacation. They realized how much care they required, and you couldn't just put them in your backyard and forget about them. There was only so much advice I could give to people. I made sure I told them everything about basic care, but if you think about it, they can live 12-14 yrs and longer as pets. That's a big commitment. People seemed very excited about them at the time, but in hindsight, I don't think they were ready. What happened to those sweet little goats I sold? I know they don't have them now. Did they take as much time as I did to make sure they got a good home or did they just send them to the nearest sale barn? Now there are exceptions of people who really love animals and will give them good homes their whole life, but for the average person in a suburb wanting a fun pet, right now, goats are "trendy" and they leap before they look.

Fortunately, I got into quality registered goats and all my kids went to breeding homes. I had strict standards for my herd and culled every year. But by culled, I mean sold to another breeding home. I saw no reason to eat or sell a doe for meat just because she didn't meet my standards of udder capacity or attachment. She could be a good milker for someone else who was just getting started. I sold quite a few of my favorites and I do know they got great homes with serious breeders. If I had a doe who had given me lovely kids, produced well and all around worked hard her whole life, she stayed until she died. Those does earned their retirement. I had decided though, that if I had any more wethers I would try goat meat as I've been told it is very good, and I'd be much happier knowing that they had a good, happy, safe, life and a quick, humane, end. If I had done that, I would have taken them to a good processor and gotten them back in white packages, lol. I never did though, because all my buck kids sold as bucks.

If I did have to put a goat down for illness reasons, they went to the vet 20 min away. Shooting is not a very nice end in my opinion. All of mine liked riding in the car and it was a merciful end of suffering for them. Then they came back and were buried in the garden to enhance the soil for a new cycle of living things.

The hardest decision of raising animals has to be deciding when to let them go, as soon as you can see it's no use to let them keep suffering. I know some people who let the animal die naturally and it is heartbreaking to watch. There is no point to animal suffering. All they understand and feel is pain and frustration at not being able to do the natural things they are born for, like running, walking, standing, sleeping, eating, drinking, and enjoying life. Yes, it is still heartbreaking and you will always wonder what more you could have done, but you will have the consolation, however small, of knowing they are not suffering anymore, and hopefully many memories of happier times with them.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Wish we had a love option on posts - everything above!!! :great:


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

@Morning Star Farm , that was a fantastic post to read.
Thanks a million!


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

MadHouse said:


> @Morning Star Farm , that was a fantastic post to read.
> Thanks a million!


You are welcome!


goatblessings said:


> Wish we had a love option on posts - everything above!!! :great:


Thank you! Sometimes I've thought the same thing. That would be nice!

I loved my animals and wanted what was best for them. Sometimes that meant selling them, and for others, like the roosters and wethers, I came to learn the hard way that they would have been safer and more comfortable, in the freezer. Some of the best decisions for your animals are the hardest to make and it took me awhile to see that I had to make that one, but once I did, it was such a relief. Sometimes you just have to zoom out and look at the big picture. Where will these animals be 5yrs from now? 8?? 9?? What condition will they be in if they're still alive? The way I looked at it, I bred and raised them and it was my responsibility to see to it that they had a happy, healthy, life.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

ReNat said:


> Yes, it is, my vet said this girl has no chance, only meat. It was the first fully conscious murder. I put her on the table, tied her legs, gave my goat her portion of grain, then when she had eaten, I said a prayer to her, told her what green meadows await her in the next, in the afterlife, and with one movement slaughtered her. She died quietly and quietly. then I skinned it and divided it into portions and put it in the freezer.


I do not quite follow. You did not make her unconscious before killing her? What is your advice to others? (That might be worth an own thread; I am not sure if we have one already. "How to make the last time in the goat's life as happy as possible?")


Morning Star Farm said:


> What happened to those sweet little goats I sold?


This, I think, is the most important question asked in this thread! Thank you!


Morning Star Farm said:


> I know some people who let the animal die naturally and it is heartbreaking to watch.


Indeed. I feel it is a crime!


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> This, I think, is the most important question asked in this thread! Thank you!


 Even now, when I think of them, I don't even want to try to guess as I have a sneaky feeling some of them didn't have a good end. One home bred dogs, big hunting dogs, and the wethers were climbing the chain link fence the dogs exercised in, because well, they were goats. That was the last update I got on how they were doing. Looking back at those cute little faces now, that I thought it was kind and merciful to sell to a pet home, I wonder, was that the most merciful thing to do? Probably not, but I hope I learned a lesson from it. Even a friend of mine, who is a total animal lover, and hardly ever puts animals down, except when they've gone on for way too long, sold wethers for meat this year because of those reasons that they had found out themselves in prior years. They were even more determined than I was, never to sell for meat and so that was a huge step for them to make. They made sure the animals would be humanely processed and well cared for until then.

Amazingly enough, I know where all of the goats I sold for breeding are and their owners still keep in touch with me now and again, so I know that they are loved and cared for. I know that's not always possible, but I feel like I did the right thing, every time I see how happy they are.


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> Indeed. I feel it is a crime!


Yes, it is sad to see, but at the same time, I understand it is a difficult thing for a lot of people. When you start to feel that it may be getting close, at the same time, you start looking for any glimmer of improvement or the tiniest sign to hang onto them. In that case, it helps to ask someone who might not be as attached as you and have them tell you, look it's time to let go. When you deal with the animal every day, sometimes it takes an outsider to show you just how bad they've gotten. Fortunately, I never had to do that, but I know how it could be and I've tried to gently guide some people that way when barn blindness sets in.

I had some goats that I had given up on and they bounced out of it, mostly with parasites. But the noticeable improvement only took a day or two, it wasn't a long term thing. Then there were others who I could tell it was time for after only a few hours. I could see it was hopeless and besides that, it wasn't worth it to have them suffer so much. It varies with each goat, but it is a decision you must be prepared to make because sooner or later, one day, you will have to make it.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I’m not really sure why you think shooting is mean? And I am not asking that in a rude way with my hackles up. I’m just wondering if you have some horror show playing out in your head. I think it is the most humane and less stressful way to put a animal down. There’s no stress of a car ride, which most of mine have no clue what a car ride is and the few that do it’s because they were purchased. I don’t want them to think I’m selling them in the middle of them dying. It’s either a pan of grain in front of them, or just laying there and lights out (to be very blunt). Don’t get me wrong if for whatever reason the only options would be let them die on their own or take them in they would be taken in to be put to sleep before I let them suffer longer then they already have


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Jessica84 said:


> I'm not really sure why you think shooting is mean? And I am not asking that in a rude way with my hackles up. I'm just wondering if you have some horror show playing out in your head. I think it is the most humane and less stressful way to put a animal down. There's no stress of a car ride, which most of mine have no clue what a car ride is and the few that do it's because they were purchased. I don't want them to think I'm selling them in the middle of them dying. It's either a pan of grain in front of them, or just laying there and lights out (to be very blunt). Don't get me wrong if for whatever reason the only options would be let them die on their own or take them in they would be taken in to be put to sleep before I let them suffer longer then they already have


I don't think shooting is mean. Not at all, my situation is just a little different from yours and it is not my preferred method. I do think that's the most merciful way to put them out next to a vet, and not everybody has a vet close by. But, For my goats, a car ride means treats and climate control, lol. Most of them are shown so they associate it with that and it's not a horrible thing for them. Actually, the majority of the goats that were put down, were already at the vets for treatment or I wanted a necropsy or diagnosis. Also, I don't have a gun, never had a real need for one yet, and my neighbor isn't the best shot. They put one of their goats down that way once and it was awful. Took 4 or 5 shots and the goat screamed the whole time. So I don't want that to be my goat's last memory. Not very pleasant. I did ask another neighbor who's a marksman to put down one of my does once, but she had an amazing recovery. So yes, I would have it done in an emergency or on a weekend, but my preferred method is by far the vet. I am not at all squeamish and would if I had to, but I'd rather not be the one doing it for the older ones, if you know what I mean. Hope that explains things!


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## ReNat (Jan 20, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> I do not quite follow. You did not make her unconscious before killing her? What is your advice to others? (That might be worth an own thread; I am not sure if we have one already. "How to make the last time in the goat's life as happy as possible?")This, I think, is the most important question asked in this thread! Thank you!Indeed. I feel it is a crime!


Perhaps there is a means to euthanize the animal before slaughter, I will ask the veterinarian at the meeting.

How to slaughter and butcher a goat I looked on the Internet. I prepared a place of pallets, near a good tree, stretched a hose with water to this place, took a sharp knife with a blade of about 20 centimeters, tied all the legs of the goat and the old-fashioned way slaughtered the goat, one decisive movement. That is, I had full contact with the animal. I tied a rope to the hind hoof and lifted the carcass to a tree branch, fixed it, then fixed the other leg. Then I washed her by hosing water, took a small knife, separated the head on the vertebra and took off the skin. Next, I cut the carcass into pieces, cutting the joints and vertebrae Packed in bags and laid out in the freezer.

Many goat breeders do not give names and do not caress those goats which they will cut.

I wouldn't do that, I'd tie a goat tight to a tree and then a shot.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

It took me 30 years of raising goats (and chickens) to be able to send one to freezer camp. Now, 5 years later, I am sending 2-3 wethers each fall for our freezer. I keep certain doelings and sell the rest. Bucklings that are good enough for breeding get advertised as such and sold. If they do not get sold, I have a dealer who comes and gets all the males. Some sell as breeding animals, others get sold as meat. I hang on to my males until late fall before they are sold. I live in a residential area, so no slaughter on property. I haul them about 10 minutes away to be processed for my freezer. When I sell to a dealer, they go in multiples, which lessens the stress. I wish I could keep them all, but in reality, I am at my limit right now.

My laying hens stay with me until they die of old age. I have one right now who is 13 years old and still produces about 2-3 eggs a week during the laying season, as I don't keep them laying during the winter. Almost all of my roosters, except for 1, have been tame. I have lucked out in that department.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Morning Star Farm said:


> I don't think shooting is mean. Not at all, my situation is just a little different from yours and it is not my preferred method. I do think that's the most merciful way to put them out next to a vet, and not everybody has a vet close by. But, For my goats, a car ride means treats and climate control, lol. Most of them are shown so they associate it with that and it's not a horrible thing for them. Actually, the majority of the goats that were put down, were already at the vets for treatment or I wanted a necropsy or diagnosis. Also, I don't have a gun, never had a real need for one yet, and my neighbor isn't the best shot. They put one of their goats down that way once and it was awful. Took 4 or 5 shots and the goat screamed the whole time. So I don't want that to be my goat's last memory. Not very pleasant. I did ask another neighbor who's a marksman to put down one of my does once, but she had an amazing recovery. So yes, I would have it done in an emergency or on a weekend, but my preferred method is by far the vet. I am not at all squeamish and would if I had to, but I'd rather not be the one doing it for the older ones, if you know what I mean. Hope that explains things!


Oh no you do not have to explain yourself at all! I totally get It and in your case a vet is 100% the best option. I just didn't want you to be picturing something totally off from what the normal shooting a animal is like and picture the worse if someone said they shot their animal.
I probably would have thrown up if I heard what was going on with your neighbor. I can not stand to even think about things like that.


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Jessica84 said:


> I just didn't want you to be picturing something totally off from what the normal shooting a animal is like and picture the worse if someone said they shot their animal.


No not at all!  That's a quick merciful end when it's done right and I would imagine the best way if you're wanting the meat, but I don't know much about that. Like you said though, it's literally lights out!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I have to mention, the photo of the woman with the rifle? That is NOT how to shoot a goat and kill it instantly. Stand behind it, aim at the back of the head pointing towards the nose. Goats have thick foreheads, sinuses at the top behind the horn area, and the horn plate is thick, regardless if there are horns or not. (and small brains!) Right where the skull meets the top of the spine and aim for the nose. You stand close and it is instantaneous. 

Unfortunately, I will have to do this tomorrow. My sweet old Oberhasli doe is down, she literally failed over 2 days. Unless a miracle happens, she will cross the Rainbow Bridge soon. (I wish she would go in her sleep.). I love that old girl.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

^^^^^ that’s how it’s done here and have NEVER had a issue.
Oh goats rock I am so so sorry  I cannot put into words how sorry I really am :hugs:


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks. I keep going out and picking her up so she isn't laying flat. For a little while this eve, she rallied, but I'm pretty sure daylight will bring the end. She isn't in pain, still wants to eat. But she is just really old and her body is failing.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Oh I'm so sorry about your doe. At least she had a good long life. I hope her passing is peaceful for both of your sakes. ((Hug))


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

@Morning Star Farm Thank you for sharing!


Jessica84 said:


> I'm not really sure why you think shooting is mean? And I am not asking that in a rude way with my hackles up. I'm just wondering if you have some horror show playing out in your head. I think it is the most humane and less stressful way to put a animal down. There's no stress of a car ride, which most of mine have no clue what a car ride is and the few that do it's because they were purchased. I don't want them to think I'm selling them in the middle of them dying. It's either a pan of grain in front of them, or just laying there and lights out (to be very blunt). Don't get me wrong if for whatever reason the only options would be let them die on their own or take them in they would be taken in to be put to sleep before I let them suffer longer then they already have


Of course it is essential where the bullet hits. - By "taken in" I guess you mean "taken to the vet" - ?


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

ReNat said:


> Perhaps there is a means to euthanize the animal before slaughter, I will ask the veterinarian at the meeting.
> 
> How to slaughter and butcher a goat I looked on the Internet. I prepared a place of pallets, near a good tree, stretched a hose with water to this place, took a sharp knife with a blade of about 20 centimeters, tied all the legs of the goat and the old-fashioned way slaughtered the goat, one decisive movement. That is, I had full contact with the animal. I tied a rope to the hind hoof and lifted the carcass to a tree branch, fixed it, then fixed the other leg. Then I washed her by hosing water, took a small knife, separated the head on the vertebra and took off the skin. Next, I cut the carcass into pieces, cutting the joints and vertebrae Packed in bags and laid out in the freezer.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing! I think we will need a little table with words, so that we all speak about the same thing. (I plan to do this later; now chores are calling a little. I am thinking of words like slaughter, butcher, stun, cut, conscious, unconscious and some more.)

The picture you shared shows the correct aim for cows, horses, and pigs. For goats and sheep, you must aim at the back of the head. There are more than one way to fix an animal's head, I strongly prefer a bowl with T*R*E*A*T*S!!!

All good thoughts to you, @Goats Rock, hope your goat had a happy life and a happy end! :hug:

PS Chores are getting close, so maybe we cou


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Morning Star Farm said:


> You are welcome!
> 
> Thank you! Sometimes I've thought the same thing. That would be nice!
> 
> I loved my animals and wanted what was best for them. Sometimes that meant selling them, and for others, like the roosters and wethers, I came to learn the hard way that they would have been safer and more comfortable, in the freezer. Some of the best decisions for your animals are the hardest to make and it took me awhile to see that I had to make that one, but once I did, it was such a relief. Sometimes you just have to zoom out and look at the big picture. Where will these animals be 5yrs from now? 8?? 9?? What condition will they be in if they're still alive? The way I looked at it, I bred and raised them and it was my responsibility to see to it that they had a happy, healthy, life.


Loved this response - im checking out of this thread


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

I am grateful for everybody’s responses.
As stated before, this is the toughest part of the choice to keep goats (or any livestock or pets).
I am glad this conversation is happening, even though it is tough.


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## ReNat (Jan 20, 2019)

The law of Conservation of Energy. This law means that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another. 

It turns out that the energy object-a goat or other living creature, sooner or later transformed into something else. From this it follows that for the energy shell "goat" death is necessary to transform into a better state.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

When we first got our goats we just wanted cute weed eaters. Started with 3 doelings. After a surprise kidding, we decided to invest in a nice buckling. Now we’re currently at 18 head (pretty close to as many as we’re comfortable housing). We’ve started playing around with milking. Any bucklings/wethers that we can’t sell and don’t have a purpose will go to freezer camp. We haven’t gotten to that point yet, and I’m sure it will be hard, but you can only take care of so many before living conditions are unsuitable. 

We have sold a wether for meat. He was a yearling that came as a package deal. He was skittish and had horns. Not a good combo for us, with having small kids. I felt a little bad when they picked him up (they put him in the back seat of their nice Toyota Camry, which was surprising). The people knew what they were doing and said they purchase a wether every two weeks for meat. If we ever have an aggressive or mean goat they will be sent to the freezer. I wouldn’t want to sell on a problem goat. 

We have plans to harvest some of our hens, likely next summer. If any get aggressive (especially the roo), they will be harvested. For the goats, we will do what we can to save one if injured or hurt, and fortunately we have a vet who is comfortable with goats. However, there is a limit on what we will do. Ultimately, for us they are livestock and not pets (except for two of the doelings that are my kids favorites. Those two will be granted pet status even if they don’t perform).


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Thanks, @NDinKY, I wish all animal owners were as wise as to think of these things before getting them!

Only, I have not really understood the great difference between livestock and pets. To me, meat and milk taste much better when I know the producer has had a good life until the very last split of a second, including being loved by me. Am I very unusual?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> Thanks, @NDinKY, I wish all animal owners were as wise as to think of these things before getting them!
> 
> Only, I have not really understood the great difference between livestock and pets. To me, meat and milk taste much better when I know the producer has had a good life until the very last split of a second, including being loved by me. Am I very unusual?


For most people there seems to be a line between animals that are really more like family members, in the sense that you wouldn't eat your brother, that thought would just have no room - and livestock.
But everybody is different! I have a friend who went on an unsupported north pole excursion with sled dogs. When the team discussed what to do for each of them in case of death, my friend stated he would like to be fed to his dogs, as it made the most sense to him.


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## ReNat (Jan 20, 2019)

MadHouse said:


> But everybody is different! I have a friend who went on an unsupported north pole excursion with sled dogs. When the team discussed what to do for each of them in case of death, my friend stated he would like to be fed to his dogs, as it made the most sense to him.


A man should not, as heir to the throne of eternal life, equate himself with an ordinary piece of meat. But in any case, a person always has the right to choose. These are all questions of education, and often this education is wrong in terms of morality and spirituality. As I see, parents do not have the knowledge and skills in the spiritual education of children and then comes to the education of TV and Hollywood.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh dear, Hollywood again! And I do not re-find my thread on the dangers of urbanization.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> Thanks, @NDinKY, I wish all animal owners were as wise as to think of these things before getting them!
> 
> Only, I have not really understood the great difference between livestock and pets. To me, meat and milk taste much better when I know the producer has had a good life until the very last split of a second, including being loved by me. Am I very unusual?


For me, if the animal is a pet they are there as a companion. This means they're with me until they die (hopefully of old age). When I started viewing the goats for production and as livestock it was easier to sell on goats that didn't align with our goals. For example, we have moved to all registered stock. That means our original goats needed new homes. It was also easier to sell the kids if they are livestock. Now I care for them as best I can, whether livestock or pets. The two doelings that my kids love will stay, whether or not they have great udders when the freshen or other undesirable traits since they are "pets". Anyone else who doesn't align with our goals will be up for sale. Anyone who is aggressive will be sent to freezer camp.


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## ReNat (Jan 20, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> Oh dear, Hollywood again! And I do not re-find my thread on the dangers of urbanization.


Yes, Yes Yes, that's why in my house there is no TV and we do not go to the cinema, it is better to go to the rink with the whole family.









In some ways, I like the Amish way of life.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

I am Native American. Raised that way. Yes we feel respect, admiration, and love our animals. Yet they are food. 
Yes I have pet goats. I have cull goats. I grew up raising registered black angus & breaking horses. We had roosters , chickens, pigs. & ducks. All were food. We fished, hunted. & learned the way of the land. GODS plan. 
Life is precious...but without balance is chaos. 
Take for food ...only what you need. Treat them as you want to be treated. 
Humans are guardians of the creatures. Thats why we are Human!
I pray before I take any life. I give thanks for their life. Their life becomes a part of me. So their life was not in vain. It has continued. 
The best I can do..for that animal...may not be enough. I dont want it to suffer. I will end its life before it feels so hopeless its miserable. 
Im a lifetime hunter. I take for food only. I hunt legally...or not at all. I kill rapidly with love...or not at all. 
I detest abuse. I hate animal neglect. I hate killing for sport. But that goes against my beliefs. 
What I love..is we are all doung the best we can..with what we have. We share the good & the bad. We learn we teach. 
We accept your choice for your situation.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

What a beautiful way of saying it, @Moers kiko boars! (The only word I would like to protest against is "breaking" a horse. That smells from violence. I like word "starting" a horse much better - if that is what it was, which I suppose!)


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## Marshall11 (Jun 24, 2019)

I joined this website when I got my pet goats and don’t post. When I scrolled through my emails and saw this though... I kind of felt compelled to give my view.

Ultimately, they are complex beings with thoughts and feelings. They’re intelligent, funny, and sometimes mischievous, like children.

Taking care of them is a huge responsibility, as is their welfare.
You need to think if you could live with yourself afterwards. In the end, are you going to regret bringing new life into the world to be killed, or caring for them as a pet, even if it does cost you a great deal of money? If your partner does it for you, will you resent them?

I’d recommend watching some of Earthling Ed’s content. His ‘you will never look at your life in the same way again’ video is very good. I’m not trying to convert you to anything, just trying to provide resources so you can make your decision. And I feel his stuff is very eloquent and well thought out.

You definitely have a lot of people responding!  has been interesting seeing what other people think.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Marshall11 said:


> I joined this website when I got my pet goats and don't post. When I scrolled through my emails and saw this though... I kind of felt compelled to give my view.
> 
> Ultimately, they are complex beings with thoughts and feelings. They're intelligent, funny, and sometimes mischievous, like children.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the goat spot, @Marshall11!:hi:
Thanks for your input, and that is a very powerful message, I just watched that video!
Thank you!


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Hello everyone. I am new here - just made my first post yesterday.

I bought a pair of registered Mini Nubians a couple of years ago because I really wanted to produce milk for my family. Our first kid died during his birth (he got stuck in a backwards position, and I waited too long to reach in and turn him around ‘cause I’d heard that usually you don’t have to interfere and I was afraid to hurt my doe or the baby).

So for a year I had milk and no kids. Except the doeling we purchased after we lost our baby.

This spring we had two sets of twins. Three girls, one buckling. We decided to keep at least one of the pure Mini Nubian doelings, so I knew I would have to either build a fence or sell Daddy. We also decided to sell the buckling, and I was planning to sell one doeling.

I wethered the buckling, took lots of nice photos, picked out the very best ones, spent about an hour drafting a beautiful sale ad, and sold him as a pet to someone who seemed experienced with goats, capable, and kind. I cried a little when she came to get him, he cried, his sister cried, his mother cried... I’m a pretty sensitive person and it was really sad for me. The girl that was buying him seemed a little put off by my emotional state. I felt so embarrassed. I sent her a quick note later apologizing for crying in front of her, made some excuse about being an emotional person, and thanked her for giving my baby a good home.

She wrote back that evening to say he’d escaped over her fence and joined a neighbor’s herd. I never heard from her again.

I was depressed for about a week after that. Kept crying thinking about little Kai, and wondering if he was okay. I tried contacting the girl again a couple of times, but never got a response. He was wearing a collar and still had some growing to do. His... boy parts were banded but needed monitoring until they dropped off and he healed.

To this day I still tear up when I think about him. I did my very best to give him a good life and I probably failed. I feel awful. I found a good home for the dad, but I don’t think I can sell another kid. I didn’t breed my does this fall. When they stop producing milk, I will probably just have a bunch of pet goats.

That or I need to be okay with butchering my animals. I’ve done a few chickens, but goats will be harder I think.

Have any of you experienced something like this? How did you deal with it? This girl promised to send pictures, promised to let me buy him back if she ever decided she didn’t want him... it makes me so sad. How do you find a decent person to sell a goat to?

*edited to add photo

*never mind - I can't figure out how


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Feira426 said:


> Have any of you experienced something like this? How did you deal with it?


I have had that happen almost every time I sold a pet goat. Sooner or later the owners seem to disappear. That is why, if I were still breeding, I wouldn't sell wethers. I feel they are better off in the freezer after a good, even if rather short, life.

Selling breeding bucks and does can be totally different though. I was very selective with who my animals went to and I know every single one is happy and healthy. Some died of old age, but not one has been sold. Their owners love them and in some cases they have better homes than I could give them which makes me very happy.

Granted, there are going to be some breeders who aren't so great, but you seem to have a better chance of finding good homes with them than with pet homes. And you can always say no to a sale if something doesn't seem right. There seems to be a growing demand for mini Nubians in Texas, so you should have a market for them, especially since they're registered.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

I wish I had done more research and given everything a bit more thought. If I'd saved up a while and had more to spend I could have bought a pair of top-quality milkers, and finding good homes for the babies would have been much easier, even the males. Being new to goats, I didn't want to spend $600 on a doe - what if I did something wrong and she died? But now I wish I'd done it anyway. Granted, these cheaper goats of mine have helped me learn a LOT, without so much financial risk... but everything has a cost, it just might not be money.


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Feira426 said:


> I wish I had done more research and given everything a bit more thought. If I'd saved up a while and had more to spend I could have bought a pair of top-quality milkers, and finding good homes for the babies would have been much easier, even the males. Being new to goats, I didn't want to spend $600 on a doe - what if I did something wrong and she died? But now I wish I'd done it anyway. Granted, these cheaper goats of mine have helped me learn a LOT, without so much financial risk... but everything has a cost, it just might not be money.


That is very well said. And yes, the cheaper ones are good for learning, lol. Maybe now that you're ready though, if you're not too attached by now, you could sell out your herd and invest in higher quality stock. That is how I kept improving my herd and finally got to a level where I didn't have to sell to pet homes.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

I think I am too attached, lol. We are hoping to buy a large piece of land at some point (on four acres at the moment), so perhaps I will keep these goats for now as pets, and if/when we move I will buy the best pair I can find for breeding/milking. Maybe I could bring myself to sell one or two of the pure Mini Nubians to a good breeder or dairy operation. Maybe. I just don't know.

The thing is, the girl I sold Kai to SEEMED to be the perfect candidate. Ten acres, new fence, vet down the street and some vet experience herself, loves her dogs, owned goats in the past, very polite in her messages. Really makes me question my ability to judge a good potential buyer.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I feel awful i was feeding my sheep and goats a big round bail of hay i had pallet forks on the front end loader. the goats pushed the gate open and beat me to the feeding grounds. They were crowding around the bail in front of the tractor. I cant see around the bail so i lifted the bail up about 8 feet off the ground. i moved slowly forward watching the goats but i was not looking for gopher holes. the tractors front tire dropped in to a gopher hole. it only dropped down 4 inches or so but the bail was 8 feet up and the leverage of four inches was multiplied to like a 2+ feet sway. the hay bail fell off the forks and all i could do was watch if fall on a wether. he didn't have a chance.

when bad things happen it is normally from a cascade of decisions we made. all we can do is assess and make changes.
I knew that the latch on the gate was iffy i should have fixed it. now it is shot. I am going to fix it.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Aw, I'm so sorry. That really sucks.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Death sucks. I lost a perfectly healthy doe kid today. She was born 6/13/19 and died 12/13/19. She was bouncing around as usual, ate her dinner with the normal group, came in, cried and died. I have no idea what happened. 

She was weak at birth, mom really didn't want her, it took weeks to get her nursing well, without the doe moving away. I guess the doe knew more than me. Something must not have been right. Maybe she got pneumonia, I don't know. (I was with the group while they ate, no one stepped on her or anything.). 

Yes, I have lots of goats, but each one is special and a loss makes me feel awful. I had to put my old Ober down last week and now this little girl.... I hate death!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Feira426 said:


> I think I am too attached, lol. We are hoping to buy a large piece of land at some point (on four acres at the moment), so perhaps I will keep these goats for now as pets, and if/when we move I will buy the best pair I can find for breeding/milking. Maybe I could bring myself to sell one or two of the pure Mini Nubians to a good breeder or dairy operation. Maybe. I just don't know.
> 
> The thing is, the girl I sold Kai to SEEMED to be the perfect candidate. Ten acres, new fence, vet down the street and some vet experience herself, loves her dogs, owned goats in the past, very polite in her messages. Really makes me question my ability to judge a good potential buyer.


I feel I would be the same way. I haven't had to sell a goat yet,and I am grateful for that. I always thought selling wethers for pets would be a good option, but now that I read your experience, I can see that happen to me. I always seem to believe everyone would be like me, loving and caring about animal lives, but people are sometimes not.
My doe that I am breeding this season is pure bred Nigerian, and so is the buck. I guess my best bet, if we get a male kid or two, and I decide to sell, is to sell them for breeding, but none of them are registered, so that might make it harder too.
The other option I see for me is to wether, then sell for meat to a buyer who butchers themselves. I'd be crying hard then too, but maybe that's easier than the unknown future... People eat meat anyway, and at least this animal was loved and had a good, if short life. I was told by a friend to not name a kid you consider selling. Call them "love" or any endearing word, but don't give them a name.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Goats Rock said:


> Death sucks. I lost a perfectly healthy doe kid today. She was born 6/13/19 and died 12/13/19. She was bouncing around as usual, ate her dinner with the normal group, came in, cried and died. I have no idea what happened.
> 
> She was weak at birth, mom really didn't want her, it took weeks to get her nursing well, without the doe moving away. I guess the doe knew more than me. Something must not have been right. Maybe she got pneumonia, I don't know. (I was with the group while they ate, no one stepped on her or anything.).
> 
> Yes, I have lots of goats, but each one is special and a loss makes me feel awful. I had to put my old Ober down last week and now this little girl.... I hate death!


I am so sorry for your losses!
If it is any consolation, I think it is great that she bounced around and had a great meal on the day she died. Not too much suffering!
I would like to die that way!


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

One thing a lot of people do not realize is, the average (I hate averages!) goat owner only has goats for 4 years. Of course some less and some way more, but 4 years is about aver. 

Life tends to get in the way, college, new relationships, new human babies, personal illness or family illness, change in jobs, income, etc. So, the goats you are raising today may have to be removed from your control in a few years. 

Everyone has to decide what will be done with the goats. Sale barn, Craigslist, freezer, or ??? At some point, most everyone will have to make an unwanted decision. It's good to think about that and see how others deal with these situations. 

That is why you should keep good records, not give "Off -Label" medications without a good reason and try to have some plan for your goats in the event you can't keep them.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

MadHouse said:


> I guess my best bet, if we get a male kid or two, and I decide to sell, is to sell them for breeding, but none of them are registered, so that might make it harder too.
> The other option I see for me is to wether, then sell for meat to a buyer who butchers themselves. I'd be crying hard then too, but maybe that's easier than the unknown.


You probably want to think about what your goals are for leaving an animal intact vs wethering. If your bucklings are high quality and could help improve herds locally then selling as bucklings would likely benefit the breed. However, if the bucklings are average, don't have strong milking lines, have average or poor conformation, etc, I'd be strongly inclined to wether.

We have sold wethers as pets and have not had a bad experience yet. We are out in the country though, which may help since most people around here have some land (not trying to keep goats in the suburbs). While we don't ask for updates once they leave our care, a lot of the people who have bought our goats send updates (at least at first). Selling NDs as meat though probably won't have as strong as a market vs standard breeds due to their small size. Also, you would need to have the space to grow them out to harvest size.

Goats Rock, sorry to hear about your doeling. That's awful.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Goats Rock said:


> She was bouncing around as usual, ate her dinner with the normal group, came in, cried and died. I have no idea what happened.


I can totally empathize. I had a darling little doe who had absolutely no monetary value. It is highly likely that she would have been destined to cross the Rainbow 'Fridge. But when she bounced to the feeder with everyone else in the evening; and I found her dead the next morning; I was devastated.



Goats Rock said:


> She was weak at birth, mom really didn't want her, it took weeks to get her nursing well, without the doe moving away. I guess the doe knew more than me.


Again, I understand. I could not resist saving a baby that a Mother obviously knew would not survive.

I am sorry for your losses. Death is always sad.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

correcting double post:bonk:


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

MadHouse said:


> Welcome to the goat spot, @Marshall11!:hi:
> Thanks for your input, and that is a very powerful message, I just watched that video!
> Thank you!


:hi: I can not see videos here. Can anyone tell me shortly what that video says?


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

:hi: Welcome, you, too!


Feira426 said:


> She wrote back that evening to say he'd escaped over her fence and joined a neighbor's herd. I never heard from her again.


I am so suspicious, I feel this is a way to say "I have butchered him, and I am embarrassed to tell you."

But don't blame yourself! You did your best.


Feira426 said:


> Have any of you experienced something like this? How did you deal with it? This girl promised to send pictures, promised to let me buy him back if she ever decided she didn't want him... it makes me so sad. How do you find a decent person to sell a goat to?


I think most of us who love our goats have been through something similar. Eventually, I decided it is better for them to die at home, so I learnt to butcher. It took me about 10 years.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

MadHouse said:


> I always seem to believe everyone would be like me, loving and caring about animal lives, but people are sometimes not.


I am very sorry, but in my experience most people just don't care about animals, especially not for goats. Here in this forum, we are collected some really loving people, with whom I can communicate!


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