# One dead baby, one live baby



## rockycreek (Oct 30, 2014)

Thank you for this forum.
I actually have a question for you and other breeders about a very odd birth I had the other day.

I have a Nigerian doe (2 years) that I purchased last spring from a breeder that said she had "lost" her first babies (twins). The lady said she went to town and was only gone a couple hours and came home to dead babies. Normal size and normal development.

The doe is very nice, and I wanted her so she sold her to me. My thought process was - she was a young mother and if someone had been with her, she would not have lost her kids.
I waited several months and then bred her to my Nigerian buck. Normal, full term (148 days) pregnancy, normal progression with labor....up to the point the head became visible...no nose or feet.

I gently pushed the vulva back from the baby head and eased it out, felt with fingers and felt feet....pulled them forward and tugged. Out popped a very dead, very swollen, very odd baby goat.
It looked and felt like a jellyfish and the skin was translucent. She had hair and hooves and was probably full term, maybe she died a day or two earlier...but no smell and everything was the right color.
I have raised sheep, goats, dogs, horses, etc for 40 years....never have I seen this.

Her labor continued and I expected another dead baby, to my surprise and delight, she delivered a normal, vigorous baby. He stood and sucked with in minutes. The doe is a great mother, very attentive and but producer. He is one week old and both are doing great. I gave her antibiotics for 4 days as a precaution.

My sister works for a vet and when she described it, he immediately said "water baby". I can't find anything on the internet, except babies swimming in water and hydrocephalus.

Any thoughts? 
thanks for any experience or ideas you or your readers could share.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Do you offer kelp?


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Sorry I can't help much but I have heard of it occurring....so glad you got one healthy baby


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

welcome to goats spot!!! 

Ive not heard of water baby..but its not unheard of for one baby to die and one or more born alive...Im very sorry you lost the little doe...I think I would ask your sister to ask the vet to clarify what he means...It might be a term he just uses...But what I would think is the water bag of that kid broke or leaked early and baby died...that is a guess of course based on how you discribed the dead baby...


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Sorry you lost the one, but glad one is healthy.

I did an internet search using different terms and your post actually came up as a result.

Sometimes the term just seems to mean a stillborn, but this post seems most relevant: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/whelpingwaterpuppies.htm

It describes possible causes in puppies and humans and has photos. Anemia, infection, immune response, genetic.....or? No clear-cut answers. Just wondering, did you have her tested for the usual diseases?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good find there!!!


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

I believe that can be caused by an Iodine deficiency. I'll look and get back with it...


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Was the same buck used both pregnancies? Maybe something genetic?
Glad you have a healthy one!


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I used to get "water babies" in rabbits occasionally. Their bellies would just feel jelly-like and swollen.


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## rockycreek (Oct 30, 2014)

*Great responses*

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/whelpingwaterpuppies.htm

Thanks for all the ideas.
This article looks like it could be the answer I am looking for. The little goat looked just like some of these pictures! This give me a place to start for researching.

I will answer some of your questions:
No, two different bucks
No, I do not offer kelp, but they have trace mineral salt blocks and a loose mineral formulated for breeding stock. Commercial goat feed, hay, routine worming and vaccination.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You could have an iodine deficiency. I lost almost all my female kids one year and was told iodine deficiency. Have been feeding kelp since and have never had that problem again.

What brand is your loose mineral? She may be deficient in other minerals too.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> You could have an iodine deficiency. I lost almost all my female kids one year and was told iodine deficiency. Have been feeding kelp since and have never had that problem again.
> 
> What brand is your loose mineral? She may be deficient in other minerals too.


Of all the possible causes, that would probably be the easiest one to fix. Did the doelings that you lost look like "water babies" Karen?
How much kelp do you give now?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I haven't looked at the pictures to see what water babies are. I just had dead full term doe kids.

I mix 1/3 cup kelp into 1 cup of mineral. These are literal measurements.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> I haven't looked at the pictures to see what water babies are. I just had dead full term doe kids.
> 
> I mix 1/3 cup kelp into 1 cup of mineral. These are literal measurements.


They would have looked noticeably odd, so it is probably something else. I have actually seen "water babies" in a few rabbit kits like someone else.

I like the idea of mixing kelp with minerals and I'll try that! Mine eat kelp straight right now.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It isn't a problem to feed it separately free choice. My goats just eat way too much of it free choice and I can't afford it at the rate they eat it. So this way they still get it and I can afford it.


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## rockycreek (Oct 30, 2014)

*I think I have the answer - more from the Google gods*

http://www.jivaonline.net/admin/upload/pdf_143.pdf

I need more research to determine the future of this momma goat....and the value of her beautiful buckling....pet or breeding? :-whatgoat:

I hope my experience will help another if it happens. The cause is still unclear. But something discussed in the article was the possibility of trauma during the last trimester.

That is a tough one to prevent.....except isolation or separate from the more aggressive does at feeding time.

The pictures in the article were very similar to the baby I lost. If anyone would like to see them, I can post or email privately. I am not sure if posting pictures would be "too graphic" for some beginners to see.
It could be educational, as rare as it seems to be...no one else has reported experiencing this condition with goats....just rabbits.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

There are many high quality bucklings out there, so unless an animal is from very exceptional lines and is exceptional himself, wethering is usually a good option. Then you can go about trying to figure out the cause of the lost kids.

I would be curious about the appearance of the two previous kids. Would you be able to contact the previous owner and ask her specifically if they had the same appearance or similar to the one you saw? I have to wonder if there wasn't something more going on than what she told you. I think a lot of people would have given the doe another chance if they kids looked normal and it was her first time and no one was there.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

The link you posted has photos of goat water babies. Others may have had it, but not recognized it. I didn't know it had a name and just assumed (in dwarf rabbits) that it was caused by difficult labor, rather than being the cause of it.

Don't know how much testing would cost. The article you found suggested Karyotyping. The article I posted also said that viral disease can be a cause-- CAE is viral and testing is recommended anyway. It's inexpensive.

Karyotyping: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia
www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003935.htm
Karyotyping is a test to examine chromosomes in a sample of cells, which can help identify genetic problems as the cause of a disorder or disease. This test can :.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

*Anascarca*

Sheep
Hydrops amnii
Wesselsbron's disease
Flavivirus
Fetal mummification; anasarca; fetal malformations: brachignatia, agenesis, spina bifida.

The above is from cldavis.org. The web site lists phone numbers for the University of Pennsylvania. If you really want to research it, I think I'd start calling veterinary universities if I were you. It's quite possible the problem wouldn't repeat, but I know you want a better idea of what happened and why.


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

*Goat cases!*

Even more theories here. I didn't read through to the end to the final diagnosis. You may want to follow the leads they did.

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/f19/ever-seen-graphic-disturbing-photos-20833/


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

BTW, Cedar Point Kikos and Karen both mentioned iodine, and the thread I found from DairyGoatInfo mentioned a possible cause was hypothyroidism in the mother (maybe related to genes.) Iodine might help if that is it.


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