# Question re: outcrossing Nubian to meat goats



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

As I am forward planning, I'm beginning to explore the possibility of introducing some meat lines into my small farm. We are producing primarily for our own purposes and currently have dairy (3 Nubians, 1 Nubian/something cross!) Can anyone give me any insights on how to proceed? I've been researching Boer, Spanish, Kiko and Kinder. In addition to a good, truly dual purpose goat, I'm interested in ability to thrive with minimal management, good natural mothering, and parasite resilience. I have just under 10 acres of excellent forage land, with access to about 30 more except in deer season. Thanks!


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Although Nubian have been known as the meat goat of dairy, Mixing boer with dairy is popular...I sell some of my Saanen bucks to Boer goat breeders who want to add dairy to their herd...
My husband wants to get Boer does and breed to our Saanen bucks...

Choosing a breed is not as important as choosing a good blood line..a thriving line...There are good and bad in all breeds...finding a breeder who cares about breeding for the things you are looking for...as for kinder, you will get smaller animals since kinder is breeding standard dairy doe to pygmy buck...like me breeding my saanen to my Nigerian..its more of a medium breed...so depending on how much meat you want..: ) 

best wishes


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Thanks Cathy - that's helpful information. As for Kinder: do you know how they dress out? In other words, do you tend to get good meat on a smaller frame, or is the meat reduced proportionately as well?

I know nothing about bloodlines in goats - especially these breeds. (Foundation Quarter Horses, yes. Meat goats - no. :shrug: ) Would anyone be able to enlighten me? *Breeders this is your chance to toot your horns!* LOL


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I loved the nubian/ boer crosses, had FB boer and bred to nubian and boer/nubian crosses, they grow a bit faster for the aspect of raising for meat and are nice to look at.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Boer goats are the "foundation Quarter Horse" of the meat goat industry. Many of us boer breeders have boers that display "good natural mothering, and parasite resilience". 

I'm always curious what people think they mean when they say "minimal management".


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> As for Kinder: do you know how they dress out? In other words, do you tend to get good meat on a smaller frame, or is the meat reduced proportionately as well?


Thats a good question, I have no idea lol..Ive not processed any..I know there are few on here who raise Kinders..I would suspect less meat for effort however...Most prefer to process young, so if you already start small...you are behind...However if you have a small family and prefer a smaller, then they may be perfect...I have a friend who raises pot belly pigs so she can process family size at home..so its a matter of preference...


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

QUOTE:
Boer goats are the "foundation Quarter Horse" of the meat goat industry. Many of us boer breeders have boers that display "good natural mothering, and parasite resilience".

I'm always curious what people think they mean when they say "minimal management".

Thanks, Tenacross. I can't say what others mean by "minimal management" but I think I'm referring to generally hardy and productive animal which has the ability to thrive on good forage with minimal concentrates and/or supplemental hay or other high-grade medical interventions; good pasture/range management for parasite control vs. heavy reliance on chemical wormers; hardy enough to resist disease when provided good nutrition, or to bounce back well when the inevitable happens...along that line. I am relatively new to goats (previously acknowledged), so I'm developing my philosophy of management, trying do do research, seek advice of more seasoned breeders (such as this forum provides) and come up with something that is both good for my animals and consistent with my values, goals and resources.

All that being said, I understand that there will invariably be a need for "chemicals" -- antibiotics, wormers and such. I think my experiences with Totsie over these past couple of months indicate that I am amply willing to pull out all the stops with regard to medical care when a serious threat to an animal's life presents itself. But if I can breed and raise animals who are genetically "healthier" and learn to keep them that way, I figure my costs will be contained without compromising productivity.

As I said...this is a philosophy under construction. Your thoughts?


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

One other thought... I believe Totsie came to me ill and worn down. It's hard to gauge her "genetic hardiness" at this time. Poor thing was a mess...she's just now becoming a goat! She comes from good lines, however, so I'm hopeful she'll develop well. None of this would be possible, however, without the great coaching of TGS'ers and lots and lots of medical intervention!!!


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

happybleats said:


> Thats a good question, I have no idea lol..Ive not processed any..I know there are few on here who raise Kinders..I would suspect less meat for effort however...Most prefer to process young, so if you already start small...you are behind...However if you have a small family and prefer a smaller, then they may be perfect...I have a friend who raises pot belly pigs so she can process family size at home..so its a matter of preference...


Good points. Thanks!


----------



## Redheads (Sep 2, 2014)

I like the dairy an boer crosses. I have a dairy cross doe that gives me the biggest weaning weights on the place. Shes not a big doe (maybe 80lds). I really like the cross with the does being the dairy breed as you get the high milk productions which leads to bigger babies. 

The best advice anyone can give you is find a farm that has close to the same managment as you seek to develope. It will save you alot of time in finding what lines work for you. Find a breeder who breeds for all the things you want in your animals or atleast most of what you're looking for. 

Another thing to remember is cull hard. I have gotten rid of several expensive does b/c they needed pampered.


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

top_goat said:


> Thanks, Tenacross. I can't say what others mean by "minimal management" but I think I'm referring to generally hardy and productive animal which has the ability to thrive on good forage with minimal concentrates and/or supplemental hay or other high-grade medical interventions;


I think that's pretty much what most people mean. The operative word here is going to be "thrive". If thrive means, "do just fine", as in, stay healthy and be able to reproduce and raise a decent kid crop, then that is more or less possible with boer goats. But if thrive means look like the show goats you see here, on FB, or magazines, then that is not going to happen. I think some people are apt to be disappointed if they buy some super bloomy, well fed, healthy boers, then kick them out on pasture and leave them to their own devises and expect them to look the same six months later. This would be the same with any breed of goat, however. I don't feed my does that aren't lactating or heading to a upcoming show any concentrate. In the summer when I have lots of good grass and browse, I don't feed hardly any hay either. They do fine. They stay healthy with very little, if any, worming. Feeding dams who are lactating and creep feeding kids, up until 3 or 4 months, actually pencils out as goat kids have remarkable growth potential at these young ages. Just an FYI.


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Exactly, Tenacross. I have no interest in showing or producing that type of animal. Although of my 4 current goats I have a registered buck, a registered doe and a recordable doe, I really don't care too much there either (except that the registered kids will definitely be good dairy quality and might bring a higher sale price - so I'll likely preserve that breeding pair if it works as I expect it to...I've seen a kid off of this doe and my buck's sire...extremely nice). But since my #1 goal is food on MY table, I'm profoundly interested in the "genetically hardy" described above. 

My two mature does -- I think -- both have what it takes. Navi has pretty much been managed this way since I got her almost a year ago until I started offering concentrates last month as she approaches kidding in a few weeks. She's big boned but quite hardy and -- except for free choice minerals -- she's done quite well for herself. I got her from a show/commercial dairy that was transitioning away from Nubians to Alpines. As for Totsie, I think the way she has rebounded from death's door offers good reason to hope that she, too, has what I'm looking for in a breeding doe. 

So I guess that brings me back to my starting point and the advice I've been given here -- look for the lines (pretty much regardless of breed) that carry the traits I'm looking for, and look for breeders that are managing them somewhat similarly to how I plan to care for them. Am I understanding all of this correctly? 

I love this site! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Tenacross said:


> I don't feed my does that aren't lactating or heading to a upcoming show any concentrate. In the summer when I have lots of good grass and browse, I don't feed hardly any hay either. They do fine. They stay healthy with very little, if any, worming. Feeding dams who are lactating and creep feeding kids, up until 3 or 4 months, actually pencils out as goat kids have remarkable growth potential at these young ages. Just an FYI.


Do you supplement your pregnant does in the last stage of their pregnancies?


----------



## wwfarm (Jan 27, 2014)

*Boer/Nubian Cross*

I specifically bred Nubian into my Boer herd. My Buck is out of a purebred registered giant Nubian doe and a purebred Boer buck. I breed him to my high percentage and purebred Boer does. I am now raising some Boer/Nubian cross does for the same purpose.

I primarily sell cabrito and the Nubian mix makes the meat extremely tender. I sell the cabritos at 5 1/2 to 6 weeks, still on mother's milk.

My herd grazes ten acres of excellent forage and I also supplement them with Alfalfa and horse quality coastal. They are penned at night and have excellent shelter from rain and wind. When I call them in in the evening they are given a small ration of Purina Noble Goat, Goat Grower formula (medicated). I deworm every 60 days and vaccinate with CD/T. I have minimal health issues with the herd.


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

wwfarm - where in south texas are you located?


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

top_goat said:


> Do you supplement your pregnant does in the last stage of their pregnancies?


It depends on the doe. For my average doe, I never start until the last 30 days, and then only if it looks like they probably have 3 or more in there. I believe many of my does would be fine with no concentrate, just good alfalfa/ grass hay, but I've learned when problems "could" start and I try to increase feed incrementally the closer to term they get. Mostly as a precaution to be honest with you. I realize this is difficult in a minimal management situation, and I have trouble with it too as my does are usually at varying stages of pregnancy. I watch for a does suddenly losing cover over their top line, or generally getting a little slow or lazy. You have to make you own decisions on whether you are going to allow excuses or not for keeping problem does long term. I've never had a problem with abnormally large kids as a result of feeding in the last 30 days.

I prefer my does going into breeding season to be "lean and mean", "fit and trim". I seem to get my share of triplets without "flushing".

Everybody needs to find what works best for them. I think keeping an open mind and a willingness to adapt goes a long way.


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

That's pretty much in line with what I hit on (probably more by accident in my newbie ignorance than anything!) this season. When I got Navi she was mineral depleted, so I had trouble getting her to settle. I had to work on bringing her into condition, but still tried to keep her on the lean side and use as few (expensive!) supplements as possible. I actually only purchased my first hay when it got cold and I needed additional bedding...and I found abundant reasons NOT to go chop yaupon for them in the freezing rains! LOL 

I'd read that I should begin to gradually increase the pregnant doe's feed at 60 days pre-kidding. She snuck up on me, however, since I thought that first breeding didn't take and the next month was our start date (so I'm really at 30 days)! Hence her (what I consider to be) really good condition is strictly on yaupon and other browse, supplemented by kelp meal ad lib and just a bit of coastal in the manger at nite. "Minimal management"! Selenium seems to be her only discernible mineral deficiency, for which I gave BoSe, plus added BOSS to her once daily concentrates. Plus I threw a round bale in her pen since after kidding she'll need it.

I so appreciate your candor and advice. Thanks! Please feel free to make any suggestions you think might help at any time. Blessings...


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Tenacross said:


> It depends on the doe. For my average doe, I never start until the last 30 days, and then only if it looks like they probably have 3 or more in there. I prefer my does going into breeding season to be "lean and mean", "fit and trim". I seem to get my share of triplets without "flushing".


Another question please: how do you learn to speculate how many kids the doe might be having? Would you care to guess on Navi? Photo attached. If the 1st (Oct) breeding took, we're looking at mid-March kidding. Photos take 1/25. Thanks!


----------



## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

top_goat said:


> Another question please: how do you learn to speculate how many kids the doe might be having? Would you care to guess on Navi? Photo attached. If the 1st (Oct) breeding took, we're looking at mid-March kidding. Photos take 1/25. Thanks!


Just experience and knowing your goats. What they looked like going into kidding season and what they look like at 2-3 months.... then what happens to their belly late. I have zero faith I can do it with someone else's goats. I bet if you made a new thread and asked the question with these pictures you would get lots of opinions on this forum though. 

Your doe looks good.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Kikos are going to bring in more hardiness than Boers, if not as much muscling. While there are some Boer breeders who do emphasize healthier animals and less pampering, Kikos are selected SPECIFICALLY for low maintenance, and culled hard to improve that through the generations. Many breeders will cull animals that need to be wormed or trimmed more than once a year. There's also a lot of breeders on our Facebook group who started with Boers but couldn't keep them alive in rough conditions. Like the other breeds you need to select a quality animal, and some lines are known for being the hardiness of the hardy while others are more directed towards adding meat. There are also Boer/Kiko hybrids called Genemasters, which are supposed to embody the best qualities of both breeds. I've just started with them so don't have much data yet but I'm excited to see how they do.

Toot, toot...


----------



## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

@ Wildhearts: Keep us updated on your Genemasters. I'd like to know if they really do what they've been bred for.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

There's other breeders who've been at it longer, but I haven't seen any performance data. Here's the info from the breed association: http://kikogoats.com/index.php/registration/genemaster/


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Doe's really are hard to read with how many are in there. I have had a Doe who was huge I thought for sure she was having multiplies, but only had 2.
You never know until they have them. But if I was to guess, it looks like 2.


----------



## wwfarm (Jan 27, 2014)

Lisa:

I am in Webb County, just outside of Laredo.


----------



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Kikos are going to bring in more hardiness than Boers, if not as much muscling. While there are some Boer breeders who do emphasize healthier animals and less pampering, Kikos are selected SPECIFICALLY for low maintenance, and culled hard to improve that through the generations. Many breeders will cull animals that need to be wormed or trimmed more than once a year. There's also a lot of breeders on our Facebook group who started with Boers but couldn't keep them alive in rough conditions. Like the other breeds you need to select a quality animal, and some lines are known for being the hardiness of the hardy while others are more directed towards adding meat. There are also Boer/Kiko hybrids called Genemasters, which are supposed to embody the best qualities of both breeds. I've just started with them so don't have much data yet but I'm excited to see how they do.
> 
> Toot, toot...


Thank you, Wild Hearts Ranch. Very helpful. It confirms what I've read or viewed on the internet re: hardiness of the Kiko. Also thanks for the link to the article on TXG -- most intriguing, and there's a committee member/breeder just a few hours from me. I expect that I'll be contacting her as part of my research. Thanks for "toot-tooting". LOL


----------

