# Brief question about housing size



## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Hi, all.

My two boys are 9 months old - this spring, right around their birthday (around May 1st or 2nd) I'm having some Amish friends build a new "barn" for them. They seem to be Alpine mixed with unknown other breed (breeds?) and it's unclear how big they will get. My new vet believes there is a good possibility their growth will be stunted, just not sure how much. I'll attach some photos so you can get an idea of what they look like for size now.

Getting to my actual question: will a 10x10 loft barn be big enough for the two of them? I think we have a 6x8, or 8x8 right now, and they're starting to get a little crowded. Don't get me wrong, they have room to move around and what not, but I want to make sure they have enough space to really walk around if they want to. It will be untreated wood (not sure what kind yet, but I believe it's a harder type of wood). I plan to treat the wood on the outside to avoid any kind of deterioration or rot from the elements, but what do you do with the inside? My boys have a penchant for wanting to scrape off wood occasionally, and if by chance they decided to scrape their teeth on it or give it a little taste, I do NOT want to chance ANY kind of chemical being ingested. They've had a rough enough start in life and I don't need them getting poisoned because I don't know what I'm doing. Will urine, etc. rot the inside wood? Make it retain a bad smell?

Thanks!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I don’t think your going to be happy with a 10X10 if you want it really roomy for them. 
If you get a tape measure and measure what’s already out there for them and just do a fast marking on the ground of the extra few feet that would be added on your going to see that it’s not going to be that much bigger then what they already have.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Jessica84 said:


> I don’t think your going to be happy with a 10X10 if you want it really roomy for them.
> If you get a tape measure and measure what’s already out there for them and just do a fast marking on the ground of the extra few feet that would be added on your going to see that it’s not going to be that much bigger then what they already have.


That is... extremely logical and practical, and I'm now going "why in the world did you not think of this simple solution?" My son and I will go out and measure - I want them to have enough room to really walk around and make sure they are comfortable. The Amish here will build a 16x20 for $2200 which is a STEAL. Only thing is we have to get a permit because it's larger than 10x10 - not that it's a big deal to get a permit lol


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

If you can swing the 16x20 go for it! You’ll be happier and so will your goats. One thing I’ve learned is, that you can never have a big enough barn! If nothing else you can dedicate one corner to a feed and supply room It will make your life easier and you’ll have more goat time to enjoy if everything’s in one place.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

GoofyGoat said:


> If you can swing the 16x20 go for it! You’ll be happier and so will your goats. One thing I’ve learned is, that you can never have a big enough barn! If nothing else you can dedicate one corner to a feed and supply room It will make your life easier and you’ll have more goat time to enjoy if everything’s in one place.


After tax returns I think I will be able to swing it


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

I'd go with the bigger option as well if you can!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Bigger the better, remember, they have to spend hours in there so need room to move around.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

toth boer goats said:


> Bigger the better, remember, they have to spend hours in there so need room to move around.


THAT is an excellent point. I find a bigger space is actually easier to keep clean, too. ☺


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

👍


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## BarnOwl (Sep 6, 2020)

andunham said:


> That is... extremely logical and practical, and I'm now going "why in the world did you not think of this simple solution?" My son and I will go out and measure - I want them to have enough room to really walk around and make sure they are comfortable. The Amish here will build a 16x20 for $2200 which is a STEAL. Only thing is we have to get a permit because it's larger than 10x10 - not that it's a big deal to get a permit lol


That sounds awesome. Do they come to Tennessee? lol! I may have a little bit of barn envy. 🤣


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

andunham said:


> Hi, all.
> 
> My two boys are 9 months old - this spring, right around their birthday (around May 1st or 2nd) I'm having some Amish friends build a new "barn" for them. They seem to be Alpine mixed with unknown other breed (breeds?) and it's unclear how big they will get. My new vet believes there is a good possibility their growth will be stunted, just not sure how much. I'll attach some photos so you can get an idea of what they look like for size now.
> 
> ...


So, I think this is directly related to housing so I didn’t want to make another post (I have like 16 different threads). Since this past Sunday we have had negative degree weather, and days where there were single digit wind chills. My boys have gotten out for a few hours, they got out about three or four hours one day and about an hour and a half yesterday. I make sure they have plenty of ventilation because I know pneumonia is a big thing. I make sure to keep their bedding clean and dry (a modified deep litter method) but I feel guilty for keeping them inside of their shelter. When it is as cold as it has been I generally let them out when I can be with them. The snow is high enough that it can touch their bellies and I worry about them getting too cold. Long story short, my mothers husband won’t fix our snowblower, and shoveling with one hand is really difficult if not impossible. I have an idea for making paths, where I’m going to put my son in a makeshift sled and push him around so they have paths to run on lol . Does anyone else have cold weather like this and large amounts of snow, and how do you deal with getting them out for exercise and fresh air? I’ve gotten some great advice on here, and have let them out in whether I thought was too cold, and they just puffed themselves up and seemed fine, but this has been consistent snowy weather with extremely cold wind chills, and I’m worried that they will get too cold. I’m probably being paranoid.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Can they just go in and out of their shelter into a fenced area? Does the door face the elements?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Can they just go in and out of their shelter into a fenced area? Does the door face the elements?


They can go in and out of their shelter as they please. The door does face the wind, but when they are out I prop it so it isn’t open all the way, protecting the area they tend to rest in and where they eat/drink is also protected. The wind today is light, but it makes it so the “feels like” is -1. I’ve been out here with them for an hour and I’m alright but I still worry about them. Edit: we were out for an hour and 15; I started to get cold and thirsty. I managed to clean their bedding and give them fresh hay and warm water. We will go out again a little later. I just feel better being out there. I know if I’m to the point I cannot stand it any longer, then it’s really freakin cold lol


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds like they should probably be ok. Just make sure they have deep bedding.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Sounds like they should probably be ok. Just make sure they have deep bedding.


Definitely will do. We are creating paths by dragging heavy, frozen buckets, and basically sledding in the yard lol just want to keep their bellies warm and dry. ☺


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Sounds like they should probably be ok. Just make sure they have deep bedding.


Sort of related… any ice melts safe to use near their shelter? Door keeps getting stuck at the bottom. 😒


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Anything that is labeled pet safe. But water softener salt pellets work really great too.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Anything that is labeled pet safe. But water softener salt pellets work really great too.


Thank you! I’ve been agonizing over it and making ice melt out of hot water, alcohol, and dish soap but it just isn’t doing the trick.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Anything that is labeled pet safe. But water softener salt pellets work really great too.


Seems to be working out alright. Thankfully they are uninterested lol Now, to just get them to stop screaming their heads off if I’m not outside with them (outside their shelter). If mom isn’t out there, the world is ending 😂


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad it is working


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

andunham said:


> Hi, all.
> 
> My two boys are 9 months old - this spring, right around their birthday (around May 1st or 2nd) I'm having some Amish friends build a new "barn" for them. They seem to be Alpine mixed with unknown other breed (breeds?) and it's unclear how big they will get. My new vet believes there is a good possibility their growth will be stunted, just not sure how much. I'll attach some photos so you can get an idea of what they look like for size now.
> 
> ...


Just a quick update on the little barn building! I’m getting a 12x14 which also gets delivered and placed where i want it in the yard. It’s only 2750$ compared to something I looked at through Lowes with lower quality and double the price! I’m excited and can’t wait to get it and post pics!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Good luck!


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Glad it worked out!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Good luck!


Thank you!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Rancho Draco said:


> Glad it worked out!


Me too! Only 1000$ up front. Great quality. I’m so happy and thankful!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

Just a note for treating your new barn- if you use raw linseed oil to coat it really well, it’ll work great. It’s even safe to eat… don’t get the boiled linseed oil which has a poisonous additive which is supposed to help it dry faster. Raw linseed oil takes longer to dry, but it soaks into the wood better as well.
Good luck 🍀


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Boer Mama said:


> Just a note for treating your new barn- if you use raw linseed oil to coat it really well, it’ll work great. It’s even safe to eat… don’t get the boiled linseed oil which has a poisonous additive which is supposed to help it dry faster. Raw linseed oil takes longer to dry, but it soaks into the wood better as well.
> Good luck 🍀


Thank you for this! It’s extremely helpful because I was worried about treating the wood and them trying to chew it.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

The shed/barn is almost done! They started it Monday and it looks so goood. Maybe I’ll live in there too! It’s 12x14 and I can’t wait to get it here!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Nice!


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

That is looking good!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, that is awesome.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

It is done! I’ll have it Tuesday! I’m so excited and it looks amazing!


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Nice goat shed! I'm jelous!

Sent from my SM-A326U using Goat Forum mobile app


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

That looks great!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

K.B. said:


> Nice goat shed! I'm jelous!
> 
> Sent from my SM-A326U using Goat Forum mobile app


Thank you! For the price it was unbeatable. I’m so happy. I wish I could live in there, too! Lol


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Rancho Draco said:


> That looks great!


Thank you, thank you! I can’t wait to get it. The same or next day I’ll be putting some sealant on the floor so pee doesn’t soak in and letting it dry, then I’ll put up the cattle panels and put the bedding in and they will have so much more room! I hope they’ll love it as much as I do!


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

It somehow looks even bigger now that it’s all done. I love the details on the door. What great goat shelter!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> It somehow looks even bigger now that it’s all done. I love the details on the door. What great goat shelter!


Thank you! I am so happy!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Nice.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Boer Mama said:


> Just a note for treating your new barn- if you use raw linseed oil to coat it really well, it’ll work great. It’s even safe to eat… don’t get the boiled linseed oil which has a poisonous additive which is supposed to help it dry faster. Raw linseed oil takes longer to dry, but it soaks into the wood better as well.
> Good luck 🍀


I tried to find linseed oil but it won’t be here for another week and is 81$ for 2 gallons. The cost I can get over but I need to get them in their shed this weekend. They just don’t have enough room in the smaller one anymore and Flower beats the holy crap out of Snowball over food because they are too close together. I found this and it says safe around plants and animals… what do you think?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> They just don’t have enough room in the smaller one anymore and Flower beats the holy crap out of Snowball over food because they are too close together.


Any way you could separate them during feeding time? Some people have a place to clip their goats to a short length of leash to eat, or put them in separate stalls, or place feeders on the fence as far away as possible from each other. The issue of bullying going on with Snow and Flower is more about food aggression and dominance than the size of the area they are being fed in.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Any way you could separate them during feeding time? Some people have a place to clip their goats to a short length of leash to eat, or put them in separate stalls, or place feeders on the fence as far away as possible from each other. The issue of bullying going on with Snow and Flower is more about food aggression and dominance than the size of the area they are being fed in.


Thank you for that info! I thought it was only because of the smaller space. He does do it outside, too, but I see it less so I thought it was because they were further apart. I’m going to try the clip leash with Flower. I felt so, so bad because Flower started to go over there and Snowball ran and hid in the corner. I know herd dynamics are what they are, but I still feel crappy about it. So, I’ll start with clipping Flower with a leash and then get a movable gate to separate them for feedings.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> Thank you for that info! I thought it was only because of the smaller space. He does do it outside, too, but I see it less so I thought it was because they were further apart. I’m going to try the clip leash with Flower. I felt so, so bad because Flower started to go over there and Snowball ran and hid in the corner. I know herd dynamics are what they are, but I still feel crappy about it. So, I’ll start with clipping Flower with a leash and then get a movable gate to separate them for feedings.


An idea came to me while feeding my goats earlier that might work, feed one of them inside the new goat barn with the doors closed and the other outside. Though that wouldn't work out so well if it was raining or bad weather. I like the ideal of clipping Flower with a leash during feed time even better. It would help him to realize you won't tolerate him being a bully at meal time.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> An idea came to me while feeding my goats earlier that might work, feed one of them inside the new goat barn with the doors closed and the other outside. Though that wouldn't work out so well if it was raining or bad weather. I like the ideal of clipping Flower with a leash during feed time even better. It would help him to realize you won't tolerate him being a bully at meal time.


The leash works! Flower absolutely HATES it, but he's getting the picture. Two days of leashing (the kind that goes over the nose and back over the horns because I will not put anything on their necks) and when I fed them last night all I did was stand there and he stayed in his own bowl! Still bringing the leash out with me, though. They are in the new goat-shed, so lots more room! I still have to put their food bowls at opposite ends of the shed... 

They ran around in there like nuts for a bit. I had mentioned in a conversation with someone else on here that they just ran around in circles and it completely freaked me out because of what happened with Flower. But, outside the shed they're totally fine. They did a lot of banging around and exploring in there. I still have to elevate their bowls - i end up with so much in wasted grass pellets because they step on the edge of the bowl (I swear to God, it's on purpose) and fling the pellets everywhere. Not to mention the whole risk of crapping in the bowl. Elevated dog feeders aren't worth it - they will jump on them and break them. Any ideas on how to elevate (cost-effective) bowls? Flower's feeders have to be a little lower; he eats so fast that he's choked before and scared the crap out of me. If he has to tip his head down a little further to eat we seem to avoid it for the most part.


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

andunham said:


> I tried to find linseed oil but it won’t be here for another week and is 81$ for 2 gallons. The cost I can get over but I need to get them in their shed this weekend. They just don’t have enough room in the smaller one anymore and Flower beats the holy crap out of Snowball over food because they are too close together. I found this and it says safe around plants and animals… what do you think?
> View attachment 226778


hi- I’m so sorry I didn’t see this. I’m not familiar with it, but if it says it’s safe for animals then I would hope it would be safe for animals…
Your shed looks fantastic 🍀😁👌


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

That is great that the leash works! We leash 15 of our 20 goats every day for feeding (the rest are in separate "stalls" from each other to eat) because it is insane trying to feed them if they're not separated 😂 They just have to be monitored because they can get tied up in the leash. 

And yes I know about the bowls! All of ours use bowls and they will sometimes step on the edge and dump the feed out 😓 It is definitely ideal to have the feeders mounted at mouth level.

What would you be mounting the feeder on? A wall? Fence? There are a lot of different kinds of feeders. There are ones that hook and clip on that you can mount on a fence and ones that hang over a board or screw on that you can mount on a wall.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

So glad they’re loving their new digs. And I’m also glad to hear about the leashes working well. It’s what I plan on attempting when we get our other buckling next month. 

I use the feeders that have clips on them and I clip them to the stall wall because we have dog kennel panels for the dividers. But you could screw eyelets into the wall and clip them on those. But there are other kinds that screw right to the wall or that you can hook over a board.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

21goaties said:


> That is great that the leash works! We leash 15 of our 20 goats every day for feeding (the rest are in separate "stalls" from each other to eat) because it is insane trying to feed them if they're not separated 😂 They just have to be monitored because they can get tied up in the leash.
> 
> And yes I know about the bowls! All of ours use bowls and they will sometimes step on the edge and dump the feed out 😓 It is definitely ideal to have the feeders mounted at mouth level.
> 
> What would you be mounting the feeder on? A wall? Fence? There are a lot of different kinds of feeders. There are ones that hook and clip on that you can mount on a fence and ones that hang over a board or screw on that you can mount on a wall.


I would be mounting on the wall inside their shed/barn. I’ve been looking around at feeders/troughs ☺ Just haven’t found the right one.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> So glad they’re loving their new digs. And I’m also glad to hear about the leashes working well. It’s what I plan on attempting when we get our other buckling next month.
> 
> I use the feeders that have clips on them and I clip them to the stall wall because we have dog kennel panels for the dividers. But you could screw eyelets into the wall and clip them on those. But there are other kinds that screw right to the wall or that you can hook over a board.


Good advice! I’ll be putting up their mineral feeders within the week so I’m going to see if I can find one that I can attach directly to the wall that’s sturdy, or just get one I can attach to eyelets. It seems the easiest solution ☺


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

I've had weather related questions before and I've got the hang of temperatures they can handle (colder than I thought, but not in the negative without wind chill or negative wind chill). This is kind of related but different. Mother Nature pulled a "hold my beer" here in upstate NY; where I live got buried in about 1.5-2 feet of that heavy, wet snow, but it's in the high 30s-40's today - not cold enough to keep the boys in. However, the snow IS high enough to hit their bellies, and I worry about them getting cold (mine are the brightest when it comes to getting out of the elements lol). I tried to shovel but it is SO HEAVY that it kills my back and irritates my hand, and we have no snowblower (step father never fixed it the whole winter). My question is this: sunny, relatively good temperatures, but is it okay to let this boneheads out with the snow so high up on their bodies? Snowball is taller than Flower, so it might not be as bad for him, but I have to keep all water and hay in the shed or it gets blown around and the water goes cold in less than an hour. I just don't want to risk them getting too cold but do NOT want to have them closed in after about 36 hours of constant snow.

Thoughts?


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I’m far from experienced with goats and deep snow as we get a few inches at a time usually. So hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in. My guess is that as long as they have free access to go back in the shed whenever they want, you could let them out for a trial period and see how it goes. If you’re worried, supervise for a bit to see if they’re getting too cold. They may not want to tromp around in wet snow, so they may make the decision for you. I know [mention]MadHouse [/mention] has lots of experience with this.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I’m far from experienced with goats and deep snow as we get a few inches at a time usually. So hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in. My guess is that as long as they have free access to go back in the shed whenever they want, you could let them out for a trial period and see how it goes. If you’re worried, supervise for a bit to see if they’re getting too cold. They may not want to tromp around in wet snow, so they may make the decision for you. I know [mention]MadHouse [/mention] has lots of experience with this.


My son and I basically stomped/kicked snow to make a path, flatten out the area where they eat/drink outside and they seem perfectly content for now. They will holler - rather, Flower will holler - if they need something lol I was out there, exactly as you had suggested, for a bit and it doesn't seem to bother them one iota.  These guys liked the snow all winter, I was just able to keep it packed down better. Saturday we had green grass everywhere so I was monitoring to make sure they didn't eat too much at once. This is nutty!


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

That is a crazy shift in weather. Glad they got out and enjoyed some fresh air. And I’m sure you and your son got a great workout flattening all that snow.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> That is a crazy shift in weather. Glad they got out and enjoyed some fresh air. And I’m sure you and your son got a great workout flattening all that snow.


Oh, we did! It's worth it for them  Today, it's in the 50s and snow is getting melty... It's bonkers! I'm trying to get my cattle panels soon - i was originally going to give them 144 length and about 32 feet out from the other fence... But I'm probably going to have to cut that down to 112 feet in length  I feel like that's not enough room for them, but I'm going to do my best.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

I'm not sure if I mentioned it here before, but I've had a conversation with one of you lovely people about the amount of room I can provide making an enclosure with cattle panels. I've been waiting until I had a big enough paycheck to do it, but it can't wait anymore. The door to the old shed broke even more so it's harder to keep it propped up, and I have to keep going out there like every 30 minutes to chase them away from it. Originally, I was going to give them 24 feet out from the fence, and 144 feet down the yard. I knew I wouldn't be able to do it in time, so instead I was going to do 112 feet down the yard; that's proving to be a problem right now. That means I have to knock it down to 96 feet down the yard and keep the 24 feet out from the fence. I know there are only two of them and I can add on to it later, but is 96 feet down the yard enough for them? I feel like that's such a tiny space...


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

@andunham Are you saying the overall square footage would be 96' x 24' ?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> @andunham Are you saying the overall square footage would be 96' x 24' ?


Yes, for at least a month or so. It would be the outside enclosure around their barn/shed. I’m trying to figure out how to at least keep it at 112 feet x 24 feet, but money is tight (as I’m sure many people understand).


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Instead of building the fence around the 10'x10' barn, you could start the fencing from the side walls opposite the doors on both sides. That would gain an extra 10' in width, plus the 10'x10' area the goat barn takes up would be opened as extra space as well. So tentatively, gaining 20'x10' extra open space for the goat lot area by having the fence in front of the barn versus around the barn.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Instead of building the fence around the 10'x10' barn, you could start the fencing from the side walls opposite the doors on both sides. That would gain an extra 10' in width, plus the 10'x10' area the goat barn takes up would be opened as extra space as well. So tentatively, gaining 20'x10' extra open space for the goat lot area by having the fence in front of the barn versus around the barn.


I’m probably just dumb, but I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to tell me  I actually ended up getting them a 12x14 barn, but I don’t know if I even mentioned that. This is going to sound ridiculous, but do you have diagram or example of what you mean? Sometimes I have to visualize stuff before it makes sense :-/


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

@andunham Sure, I'll be more than glad to draw up a diagram for you. I just need to know if the doors are on a 12' or 14' section of wall.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> @andunham Sure, I'll be more than glad to draw up a diagram for you. I just need to know if the doors are on a 12' or 14' section of wall.


Omg thank you! Doors are on the 14’ section. Barn is a rectangle, basically lol


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Will start drawing it out as soon as supper is over. Should have it ready for you about 7 pm tonight.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Here you go. If you have any questions, will try to answer them for you.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Here you go. If you have any questions, will try to answer them for you.
> View attachment 227972


I’m not sure if it will work the way I want because I might actually need more panels based on where the barn is. Also, my step father insists they can’t chew through the deer fending I want to put around the outside of the panels to keep them from getting their heads stuck… I’m 100% not convinced. Looks a little too thin; he says deer can’t chew through it so my boys can’t…


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

I am pretty sure they would chew through the deer netting.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> I am pretty sure they would chew through the deer netting.


I 100% agree. I’m not putting that up and then having them get sick because they chewed through and ate some, or chewed through and get their heads stuck. So, now I’m scrambling to find something that won’t cost me an additional 100$ to put around it to stop them sticking their heads through 😩😩😩


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yeah, I wouldn’t use it.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You'd be better off using something like this: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Garden-Zon...-Welded-Wire-Rolled-Garden-Fencing/1000552843


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> You'd be better off using something like this: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Garden-Zon...-Welded-Wire-Rolled-Garden-Fencing/1000552843


I saw those before and wondered… They are a bit expensive for the moment simply because I get a discount at TSC because I work there. A couple coworkers gave me some suggestions, but I always check here first… I’m going to add some pictures here. The green fencing is kind of like what we had around our garlic bed and they didn’t seem to bother with it much, but I’m cautious with them so, that’s the reason I’m posting pictures of fencing to go around the outside of cattle panels 🙂
























I ordered the one on the bottom a few days ago - it’s welded wire - just in case. If it’s not usable I’ll just bring it back like I did with the deer netting. I want to make sure I get something that one, they can’t eat, and two, can’t get a foothold on to climb over the panels.


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

I think the one on the bottom, that you ordered, would work great.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

KY Goat Girl said:


> I think the one on the bottom, that you ordered, would work great.


Oh, I’m beyond glad to hear that. It doesn’t seem to me that they would have enough room to get a foot hold, or at least I hope not lol I just want to refrain from getting heads stuck lol


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

A. Your goats look strangely like Nigerians. I don't see much, if any, Alpine there.
B. I've used that Teflon deer netting for years. It's the one fencing they can't break through. 
C. I've kept goats in Alaska. They are well equipped for cold weather. We would give a couple spoonfuls of vegetable oil on their food to help them stay warm. This must be worked up slowly in early winter. 
D. Once you get the door area cleared, spray the edges of door and door opening with WD40. Perfectly safe fish oil and will keep the door from freezing. This works on cars as well. 
E. Try to enjoy your animals instead of being a helicopter mom. You and the animals will be happier in the long run.
F. I would get that barn finished or put up bump boards this summer. They will be able to cause a lot of damage with those horns in a couple of years.

Because I'm normally outspoken people mistake my posts for critical or negative. I welcome you and hope you enjoy the forum. I don't form opinions of people from one post 🤣


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> Oh, I’m beyond glad to hear that. It doesn’t seem to me that they would have enough room to get a foot hold, or at least I hope not lol I just want to refrain from getting heads stuck lol


Speaking from experience, those horns will probably grow long enough the heads won't fit through any longer. If the goat learns (has been shown) how to tuck chin and tilt the head, they can unstick themselves. Not all goats can grasp that concept. I have also read posts about using straight lengths of pipe, wooden dowels, etc. attached across the span width of the horns to prevent a head from being able to stick through.

Since you are in the process of adding fencing, (or haven't purchased more panels yet?) have you considered getting a roll or two of fencing that has the 2"x4" sized rectangle openings? Overall, per footage, the roll fencing may be more economical than cattle panels. I use both types of fencing, the 2"x4" for the goat lot, and the cattle panels for setting up the browse areas outside of the goat lot.

The only thing I know of that would keep a goat from getting a foot hold on any fencing is hot wire run around the inside perimeter of the lot.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

goathiker said:


> A. Your goats look strangely like Nigerians. I don't see much, if any, Alpine there.
> B. I've used that Teflon deer netting for years. It's the one fencing they can't break through.
> C. I've kept goats in Alaska. They are well equipped for cold weather. We would give a couple spoonfuls of vegetable oil on their food to help them stay warm. This must be worked up slowly in early winter.
> D. Once you get the door area cleared, spray the edges of door and door opening with WD40. Perfectly safe fish oil and will keep the door from freezing. This works on cars as well.
> ...


I don’t think you’re being critical or negative ☺ I think you’re giving opinions that can prove helpful ☺ The barn is finished - what are bump boards?


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

goathiker said:


> E. Try to enjoy your animals instead of being a helicopter mom. You and the animals will be happier in the long run.


I know this wasn’t for me, but I needed to hear it today. For once, it’s not the goats I’m fretting over but turkey hens and their newly hatched poults. So thanks for the great all around advice. More people than you even know needed it today. 



As for deer netting, I’ve zip tied it to a fence to keep baby birds from wandering out of their safe areas. The goats go right along that fence and rub on it and even nibble on it sometimes, and it’s held up surprisingly well. My goats have a pretty big area to wander and aren’t real hard on fences though, so I’m not sure how it would do in your situation. I just know I’ve been pleasantly surprised with how well it held up.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I know this wasn’t for me, but I needed to hear it today. For once, it’s not the goats I’m fretting over but turkey hens and their newly hatched poults. So thanks for the great all around advice. More people than you even know needed it today.
> 
> 
> 
> As for deer netting, I’ve zip tied it to a fence to keep baby birds from wandering out of their safe areas. The goats go right along that fence and rub on it and even nibble on it sometimes, and it’s held up surprisingly well. My goats have a pretty big area to wander and aren’t real hard on fences though, so I’m not sure how it would do in your situation. I just know I’ve been pleasantly surprised with how well it held up.


That part I needed to hear, too. I’ve had such traumatic experiences with near death, and so scared of losing them… I’ve had so much time to enjoy them, too, I just get so scared. I’ve actively been working on this. Helicoptering and hanging out with them is so different lol

for my boys, I don’t want to chance the netting because they chew EVERYTHING. I have gone out and combed the yard, section by section for any garbage that could have blown in or hazardous items… whew, it’s clear. And then I look and Flower has plastic or something and I’m running out the door. I swear to God, he digs this crap up lol


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Speaking from experience, those horns will probably grow long enough the heads won't fit through any longer. If the goat learns (has been shown) how to tuck chin and tilt the head, they can unstick themselves. Not all goats can grasp that concept. I have also read posts about using straight lengths of pipe, wooden dowels, etc. attached across the span width of the horns to prevent a head from being able to stick through.
> 
> Since you are in the process of adding fencing, (or haven't purchased more panels yet?) have you considered getting a roll or two of fencing that has the 2"x4" sized rectangle openings? Overall, per footage, the roll fencing may be more economical than cattle panels. I use both types of fencing, the 2"x4" for the goat lot, and the cattle panels for setting up the browse areas outside of the goat lot.
> 
> The only thing I know of that would keep a goat from getting a foot hold on any fencing is hot wire run around the inside perimeter of the lot.


Pickup up all my panels and posts tomorrow. I did order rolls of fencing like you mentioned, actually. It doesn’t come tall enough here with enough footage that it’s any more affordable than the panels. Whereas, if I get the shorter height with the longer length, I’ll get more out of it running it along the outside of the panels. The barn ended up in a weird place that I didn’t want it because the guy delivering it wasn’t listening to me when I said to go straight down a certain area, then turn it and put it in. Instead he kept going further down and got stuck several times. So, instead of being closer to the house than the other shed, it’s further and downhill. So, every time I have to do something it’s down to the shed and back up the hill. Tiring especially when carrying things like 3 gallon jugs of water. I won’t have to do that once I get a new hose; it will run the length to the shed for water bucket filling (and the horse hydrator will fit to it).

Flower can usually figure out how to get his head out, Snow, on the other hand, panics. I have to straddle him and pet/soothe him and then try to get his head out. For some reason the way their horns grow back makes it so difficult to get out once their heads are in. I cried the last time Snowball got stuck because that’s how stuck he was lol I had to push his head down and tilt to get him out, and his throat was being pushed down against the fencing and I got scared I was going to choke him. After that, I was like nope not doing this again lol


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Here you go. If you have any questions, will try to answer them for you.
> View attachment 227972


Okay, this is a terrible illustration/picture but it gives an idea of what I’m doing. 16’ + 8’ extending out from existing fence; 16’ x 7 down the yard; then 8’ + 16’ back to the existing fence. This is absolutely not to scale; it is the best I could do though.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

KY Goat Girl said:


> I think the one on the bottom, that you ordered, would work great.


That fencing is so flimsy I hope it holds up 😥


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

The garden fencing will not hold up to goats. The wire running horizontal will work loose from the wire running vertical. And with the wires loosened, there will be openings galore. Goats will stand on fencing, loosening the wires depending on the type and gauge being used and will scratch against fencing and stress the post while bowing sections of fencing out sometimes.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> The garden fencing will not hold up to goats. The wire running horizontal will work loose from the wire running vertical. And with the wires loosened, there will be openings galore. Goats will stand on fencing, loosening the wires depending on the type and gauge being used and will scratch against fencing and stress the post while bowing sections of fencing out sometimes.


You are exactly right. I’m returning it right now. It looked like it would be stronger but they will definitely just push against it, and then get their heads stuck anyway lol


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> The garden fencing will not hold up to goats. The wire running horizontal will work loose from the wire running vertical. And with the wires loosened, there will be openings galore. Goats will stand on fencing, loosening the wires depending on the type and gauge being used and will scratch against fencing and stress the post while bowing sections of fencing out sometimes.


It was to go around the outside of the cattle panels to keep them from sticking their heads through, that was the idea, at least. But, like you said, it just won't hold up. They could push against it and bend it outward and still get their heads through the openings of the cattle panel (and get stuck again). Returned the fencing and just thinking about other ways suggested on here, etc.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

so, here is our temporary enclosure! It will be expanded some time in the next month or so. The wooden garlic bed is not in there, but the pop up canopy is (and anchored down) with a tarp zip tied to the fence for better/more shade. We always have 2 buckets of cold water outside, a bucket of cold water inside, hay inside and outside, Timothy grass pellets available all the time, too. They aren’t interested in their hay lately, but with forage/browse more readily available I’m less worried about it. Hay racks and mineral feeders have been mounted in the shed (pictures to follow)! I also bought raw linseed oil as someone suggested since the marine sealant I originally used doesn’t seem to be doing as good a job as it boasted. Wondering if I tarp the other two sides of the canopy (leave the front open) if I would be able to kick them out of their shed for a night to let the linseed oil dry? Sam and I are shoveling out and scraping the floor tonight (depending on rain forecast for tomorrow) so I can put the linseed oil in; I think I remember someone mentioning them only needing a three-sided shelter if protected from elements/wind. Also working on getting a little herb garden started for them. Going to be getting cement blocks (the flatter ones, not the big ones that look like two squares put together with holes in them) so we have someplace for them to wear down hooves; also working on getting a nice, thick slab of wood to work as a ramp in and out of the shed!
Getting my custom made stanchion this weekend; Snowball will be getting a shave… his fur is so thick and coarse compared to Flower’s silky fur (he’s blown out 98% of his undercoat). Snowball looks pretty rough with his fur finally coming out but it’s not fast enough. I used a rubber curry comb and a furminator to brush him for about 10 minutes a couple days ago and I could have built half of another goat with what came off of him!
Whew! LONG update, sorry about that!


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

Looking good- lucky boys! 😁


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Boer Mama said:


> Looking good- lucky boys! 😁


Thank you! Working hard to get everything up to snuff for them. They’ve been spoiled since day one, and I’m going to keep it that way ☺


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Love seeing an update from you! I bet those boys are loving all the green


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Rancho Draco said:


> Love seeing an update from you! I bet those boys are loving all the green


Aw! Thank you! They are loving the green - I did a slow progression once the green started coming out so they didn’t eat too much lush stuff and bloat. They eat a lot of pine/spruce boughs! They love them. 

I’m looking at safe barn paint for the outside; I don’t want the wood to get too soft. I’ll probably post pictures of that, too lol

Also, checking options for these darn snails; diatomaceous earth isn’t actually effective against them, apparently. They’ve been sparse in their enclosure so far, but still want to be safe. I see a lot of honey/bumble bees flying around the dandelions. They don’t seem to bother the boys, but I still worry about stings - not sure how goats handle those things. I also have pesticide for the perimeter of the shed inside/outside. They just have to be out of it for 24 hours; not sure if I want to do it or not because I worry. Flies seem to be sparse, too. We usually have a butt load of them around the house (not sure why) but their shed I’ve seen a couple here and there.


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

We don’t have too many flies yet- we get those bad late summer 😑
Put out some shallow bowls of beer for the snails, I’ve heard it works well. Little drunks 🤣
Unless your worried your boys may develops a taste for it 🤔😂😅


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Boer Mama said:


> We don’t have too many flies yet- we get those bad late summer 😑
> Put out some shallow bowls of beer for the snails, I’ve heard it works well. Little drunks 🤣
> Unless your worried your boys may develops a taste for it 🤔😂😅


I didn't know about those slimy little things being drunks lol. i'm going to try that. I gave my boys dark beer before and they were not exactly happy with me lol Right now it's too hot for the snails/slugs to be out much during the day when the boys are grazing/browsing; when got back home this afternoon i basically booked it outside because if it felt that hot for me, I could only imagine how hot they must have felt. They got doused with some cool water, which seemed to help, even if they were not amused about it lol I just went out again with a spray bottle and sprayed their bellies and armpits; they didn't like getting sprayed in the groin though (my son calls them "back leg armpits"). We're getting a little cloud cover now and some great breezes. i moved any and all pellets/hay under the canopy along with a 5 gallon pail of water, and another 5 gallon pail in the shade by the shed, and then a 3 gallon bucket in their shed. When it cools down Sam and I are going out to shovel the dirty bedding - I did it about 4 days ago, but because it's so hot it stinks a little and I'm not about that lol


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Rancho Draco said:


> Love seeing an update from you! I bet those boys are loving all the green


Want another one? I may or may not have stuck tennis balls on Flower’s horns for being such a jerk/bully with Snowball and food, even when I’m trying to mediate. Photographic evidence…


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

That second picture is hilarious 😂😂


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Rancho Draco said:


> That second picture is hilarious 😂😂


It cracked me up too LOL 

I'm glad I just looked at it again because I was about to cry. I was so busy the last 4-5 days I didn't clean out the shed like I was supposed to... I went in there with my son to start shoveling out and it's matted down and I just about lost it. That was a terrible thing for me to do to them no matter how busy or tired I was... Now, i'm going to have to get up earlier than usual so I can get out there before 8AM before it gets too hot and get all of that out. Gonna have to wear a mask because once I started shoveling some of it up... the pee smell was awful. So yeah, cried. i'm so angry at myself for doing that to them; doesn't matter if I have three jobs or one, being tired shouldn't be an excuse to not clean out their housing. 🤦‍♀️


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

Rancho Draco said:


> That second picture is hilarious 😂😂


I was going to say the same… the look he’s giving 🤣


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

Where it’s nice out, I wonder if you could just do a small bit of bedding in one corner for them to sleep on if they want?
I’ve seen where some people can potty train them to an area cus they don’t like peeing on the hard floor (so leave w/o bedding)… maybe they’ll decide to start peeing outside. Or just in the their bed 😅
But it would be a smaller space to clean..


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Boer Mama said:


> Where it’s nice out, I wonder if you could just do a small bit of bedding in one corner for them to sleep on if they want?
> I’ve seen where some people can potty train them to an area cus they don’t like peeing on the hard floor (so leave w/o bedding)… maybe they’ll decide to start peeing outside. Or just in the their bed 😅
> But it would be a smaller space to clean..


You... have a good point there. It would mean bedding along the walls on opposite (short) sides of the shed, or just the corners. I have some bedding down under the canopy just because I didn't want them lying in the grass if it was, by chance, buggy. They seem to like it  thank you for the good advice! Worth a try! i'm just so mad at myself for putting it off like this.


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## Boer Mama (10 mo ago)

Good luck with it 🍀😁🍀


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Boer Mama said:


> Good luck with it 🍀😁🍀


Thank you! At least I learned my lesson 😅 Next thing: SHAVE DOWNS TOMORROW 😁


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

Still related to housing - it's been hot, my boys generally will stay out in the rain like dorks anyway. Is it safe for them to be out when raining and thundering? Haven't seen lightning yet, but want to keep them safe. Should I corral them in the barn and close door? Window open in there and vent up at the top; temp is significantly cooler than yesterday; instead of 89-90 and humid, breezy and 75. I have a weather app directly from National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association that tracks lightning, which is 10 miles away. Safety first for them, so just wondering what y'all do/recommend?


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

Other people might disagree, but as long as they have access to go in if they want to, I wouldn’t force them inside unless there was a threat of real danger. Mine will stay out in light rain, even with wind and thunder, but run for the barn at the first heavy drop.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

As long as they can come and go into the shelter when the mood strikes them, they will be fine. As for lightning strikes, there is no predicting when and if it hits ground. Just like FizzyGoats mentioned, once the rain drops get larger, most goats will head for shelter. The little goobers living here act like the least little bit of wetness will surely make them melt. Multiple times I've watched them slide along the wall of their shelter underneath the overhang to get around to the back side and their covered porch. Meanwhile, I'm out in the elements, getting natural tendrils in my hair from it getting wet while cleaning up their waste.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> Other people might disagree, but as long as they have access to go in if they want to, I wouldn’t force them inside unless there was a threat of real danger. Mine will stay out in light rain, even with wind and thunder, but run for the barn at the first heavy drop.





NigerianNewbie said:


> As long as they can come and go into the shelter when the mood strikes them, they will be fine. As for lightning strikes, there is no predicting when and if it hits ground. Just like FizzyGoats mentioned, once the rain drops get larger, most goats will head for shelter. The little goobers living here act like the least little bit of wetness will surely make them melt. Multiple times I've watched them slide along the wall of their shelter underneath the overhang to get around to the back side and their covered porch. Meanwhile, I'm out in the elements, getting natural tendrils in my hair from it getting wet while cleaning up their waste.


 This is exactly what I did. They heard a couple of good booms and flew inside but I left the door open. When it was just drizzle or sprinkling, I let them do their thing. They have a canopy out there that will protect them from rain if it isn't blowing and access to that shelter at all times. It did not rain last night, cooled off nicely, and they slept outside their barn right near the enclosure entrance. I'm assuming it was more comfortable to lie in the damp, cool grass. Access to hay, hay pellets, and water at all times. I actually laughed pretty hard - even in the dark you could clearly see Snowball, but you absolutely could not make Flower out at all... until you shined a flashlight and saw two shiny eyes staring back at you. And that was literally all you could see 🤣


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> Other people might disagree, but as long as they have access to go in if they want to, I wouldn’t force them inside unless there was a threat of real danger. Mine will stay out in light rain, even with wind and thunder, but run for the barn at the first heavy drop.


They did go in after I almost had a heart attack with a huge bolt of lighting. That didn’t bother them, but just like you both said, rain getting heavier and they booked it. I’m going to keep an eye on wind direction; if it’s not blowing hard with torrential rain, I’ll leave the door open. They have room on both sides to get away from anything that blows in. However, if it’s like… a hurricane, I gotta close that door or find a way to keep it open a third of the way. Could use a T post if needed. One good crack of thunder, startled me too, and Flower’s back end came up off the ground and he booked it a few good feet lol. Poor guy


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I do the same thing. Even in a heavy storm, I can usually leave the door open. Every once in a while though, the wind shifts just wrong and I’m out there in my slicker and rain boots, ducking the lightning (because that works, lol) and getting those dang doors closed so the rain doesn’t blow in too badly.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

FizzyGoats said:


> ducking the lightning (because that works, lol)


 Yep, ducking from the lightening keeps us safe. (Guilty of doing the same thing)



andunham said:


> Window open in there and vent up at the top; temp is significantly cooler than yesterday; instead of 89-90 and humid, breezy and 75.


How much does the shelter heat up on the inside when outside temps are 90F and the doors are closed?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Yep, ducking from the lightening keeps us safe. (Guilty of doing the same thing)
> 
> 
> How much does the shelter heat up on the inside when outside temps are 90F and the doors are closed?


I absolutely cannot close the doors if it is 90 or above. Right now, i have a friend helping me find fans that I can safely mount to the rafter or corner. Cord would go out of the vent, high up where they can't reach and then over the back fence where they also can't reach to chew the crap out of the cord. I don't want air conditioning (that that there is any way possible to put it in the small window) because that would be too much of a temperature shock. i got worried today because now it's only in the 50s - Mother Nature is drunk and still going "Oh, you think that was a good one? Hold my beer."

Door open the day i mentioned how hot it was in there, outside thermometer (borrowed briefly from neighbor) said it was 105F in there. I'm not cool with that (that pun was not intended). Thankfully, even with the crazy storm we got, the way the wind blew for most of it, wasn't in the direction of the open door; when it switched direction there was only a small spot just inside the doors that got a little wet. i'm glad, however, we didn't shave them yet. My friend flaked out bringing the stanchion anyway, but I'm confident I can shave Snowball without much issue; if anything, the noise might bug him, but mine is low noise anyway. I have an Oster I use on my cat, but I can get a really good one from my TSC store with employee discount. Sorry for rambling, so much going through my head to keep them safe and healthy. Family thinks I am absolutely crazy to be dropping the money I have and still do, and often tell me "you should just get rid of them" and i get really frickin mad. One, I made a committment, and two I love them SO MUCH. Sorry, more rambling.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I do the same thing. Even in a heavy storm, I can usually leave the door open. Every once in a while though, the wind shifts just wrong and I’m out there in my slicker and rain boots, ducking the lightning (because that works, lol) and getting those dang doors closed so the rain doesn’t blow in too badly.


I one door open for most of the day/evening - I have a hook on the outside of the door and the little loop-thing attached to the outside wall to hook it so it doesn't slam shut. I use that mostly for days it's windy because it will swing shut and then they can't get in.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

The heat does complicate things a lot. My barn usually is cooler than it is outside. Great in the summer, not as great in the winter. But we deal with more heat where I live, so I’ll take it. And my main door opens inward, so the worst it does is swing open if I haven’t latched it. At least if you have one door open, there’s still a breeze and a way to get out of the rain. A fan will help immensely once you get that installed. I have two in mine but usually only use them in the scorching heat of late summer and the LGD is the only one who enjoys it. My goats don’t like the fans.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> The heat does complicate things a lot. My barn usually is cooler than it is outside. Great in the summer, not as great in the winter. But we deal with more heat where I live, so I’ll take it. And my main door opens inward, so the worst it does is swing open if I haven’t latched it. At least if you have one door open, there’s still a breeze and a way to get out of the rain. A fan will help immensely once you get that installed. I have two in mine but usually only use them in the scorching heat of late summer and the LGD is the only one who enjoys it. My goats don’t like the fans.


i partially blame myself for this because I didn't think about what I was doing when I said "oh yeah, just the black roof is fine" - that was dumb. I should have gotten the white or red roof; probably would have been cooler for them. And yes, I think the fan will be a wonderful relief, too. I wanted it by this weekend, since it's supposed to hit 90+ on Saturday, and I'm sure a "cheap" one will be fine, but... No one to put it up for me 😩 i'm asking around to see if someone could securely (and safely) hang it up high and run the cord through the vent. How do you keep it from shorting out if the cord is out in the elements? I don't want to start a fire because I shorted something out by letting the cord get wet.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

andunham said:


> i partially blame myself for this because I didn't think about what I was doing when I said "oh yeah, just the black roof is fine" - that was dumb. I should have gotten the white or red roof; probably would have been cooler for them. And yes, I think the fan will be a wonderful relief, too. I wanted it by this weekend, since it's supposed to hit 90+ on Saturday, and I'm sure a "cheap" one will be fine, but... No one to put it up for me  i'm asking around to see if someone could securely (and safely) hang it up high and run the cord through the vent. How do you keep it from shorting out if the cord is out in the elements? I don't want to start a fire because I shorted something out by letting the cord get wet.


They make outdoor extension chords meant to withstand the elements. You can buy them at pretty much any hardware store. Walmart probably even has them. The real trick will be not letting the goats chew on it. If you have it up high through the vent though, that might not be an issue. We use one of those chords for the fan we have in the chicken coop and it’s worked great for years. In our barn, we have electricity wired in, so it’s just plugged into an outlet. I hope you can get the fan situation figured out.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> They make outdoor extension chords meant to withstand the elements. You can buy them at pretty much any hardware store. Walmart probably even has them. The real trick will be not letting the goats chew on it. If you have it up high through the vent though, that might not be an issue. We use one of those chords for the fan we have in the chicken coop and it’s worked great for years. In our barn, we have electricity wired in, so it’s just plugged into an outlet. I hope you can get the fan situation figured out.


I ended up looking at those online  Yeah, the wire will go up through the vent and when it comes out, it will go up over the outside fence (high where they can't reach). I'm working hard on getting this sorted - it's going to be a terrible saturday if I don't get someone to put it up for me...


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> How do you keep it from shorting out if the cord is out in the elements? I don't want to start a fire because I shorted something out by letting the cord get wet.


When you plug the fan into the extension cord, bunch up the fan cord and it's plug, secure the cord bundle loosely with zip ties and only run the extension cord out into the elements. Not to dampen your idea about running it through the vent cover, I doubt the vent openings will be large enough to allow a plug end to fit through. Also, a cord through the vent slots may prevent/hamper the vent from being opened or closed if that is a feature of the vent. An alternative would be to drill a circular hole large enough to fit the plug end through the wall. The hole could be filled back in with a squirt of spray foam without any negative effects to the cord if you wanted to close the hole around the cord.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> They make outdoor extension chords meant to withstand the elements. You can buy them at pretty much any hardware store. Walmart probably even has them. The real trick will be not letting the goats chew on it. If you have it up high through the vent though, that might not be an issue. We use one of those chords for the fan we have in the chicken coop and it’s worked great for years. In our barn, we have electricity wired in, so it’s just plugged into an outlet. I hope you can get the fan situation figured out.





NigerianNewbie said:


> When you plug the fan into the extension cord, bunch up the fan cord and it's plug, secure the cord bundle loosely with zip ties and only run the extension cord out into the elements. Not to dampen your idea about running it through the vent cover, I doubt the vent openings will be large enough to allow a plug end to fit through. Also, a cord through the vent slots may prevent/hamper the vent from being opened or closed if that is a feature of the vent. An alternative would be to drill a circular hole large enough to fit the plug end through the wall. The hole could be filled back in with a squirt of spray foam without any negative effects to the cord if you wanted to close the hole around the cord.


In addition to outside extension cords, I was shown something like this, too. What do you all think? Any experience with them?
Water tight cord connector


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> The heat does complicate things a lot. My barn usually is cooler than it is outside. Great in the summer, not as great in the winter. But we deal with more heat where I live, so I’ll take it. And my main door opens inward, so the worst it does is swing open if I haven’t latched it. At least if you have one door open, there’s still a breeze and a way to get out of the rain. A fan will help immensely once you get that installed. I have two in mine but usually only use them in the scorching heat of late summer and the LGD is the only one who enjoys it. My goats don’t like the fans.


Also complicating things (sort of), we went from hot and humid for days last week, to in the 60s yesterday, which isn't bad, to in the 40s/50s today and rainy/drizzly. They were out this morning anyway (it was misting out) eating grass/browse, but inside now. Flower lies down in the doorway with his head poking out lol I keep the barn door open unless it's below 40 with or without wind/rain. They seem perfectly fine. I gave them room temp water instead of cold like they had last week and they seem content with that. Good thing with a fan? Can turn it on and off, just have to find one that I can actually reach to turn on and off lol I'm not even 5 feet tall 😅
EDIT: Found this on The Home Depot website. Relatively inexpensive and made to be mounted.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I’ve never used a cord connector but it looks like a good idea. And I keep my fans set to ‘on’ and then just plug it or unplug it to turn it off and on. I have to get a ladder out to turn it on/off and adjust the fan sped and such and I’m too lazy to do that every time I want it on. Lol.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> In addition to outside extension cords, I was shown something like this, too. What do you all think? Any experience with them?
> Water tight cord connector


I see how the connector could hamper the plug ends from pulling apart, and that there are claims made as being water tight. Thing is, more than likely the cord for the fan isn't UL rated for outdoor use. And even though the fan plug would be covered against the elements, what would be protecting the length of fan cord being used outdoors from the elements?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> I see how the connector could hamper the plug ends from pulling apart, and that there are claims made as being water tight. Thing is, more than likely the cord for the fan isn't UL rated for outdoor use. And even though the fan plug would be covered against the elements, what would be protecting the length of fan cord being used outdoors from the elements?


That's a great point. I thought about that this morning, and I wondered about previous suggestions - keeping the fan cord inside and running only the outdoor extension cord, well, outside. That actually eliminates the need for the connection protector. I just pushed a little bit of extension cord through vent, which works, but the actual plug may not, so small hole as suggested might be a good option  So many good suggestions here, and extremely helpful.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I’ve never used a cord connector but it looks like a good idea. And I keep my fans set to ‘on’ and then just plug it or unplug it to turn it off and on. I have to get a ladder out to turn it on/off and adjust the fan sped and such and I’m too lazy to do that every time I want it on. Lol.


I mean, that totally works, but I hate heights lol. I had to climb a ladder at work and was sweating. It was maybe 3-4 feet off the ground and I got all dizzy 😅 Massive fear of heights


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> That's a great point. I thought about that this morning, and I wondered about previous suggestions - keeping the fan cord inside and running only the outdoor extension cord, well, outside. That actually eliminates the need for the connection protector. I just pushed a little bit of extension cord through vent, which works, but the actual plug may not, so small hole as suggested might be a good option  So many good suggestions here, and extremely helpful.


Something else to consider and/or research more in depth, a fan blowing inwards circulates the air while creating a breeze that helps dry condensation (perspiration) from the skin for cooling effects. A fan does not visibly lower the room temperature by any measurable degrees. For these reasons, the wall mounted fan being considered possibly won't cool the shelter temperature down very much at all. 

I may be wrong; I don't think a goat is capable of sweating and producing condensation to be dried off. So other than a fan mounted close to the ceiling creating a breeze across the top of the shelter, I just can't wrap my brain behind how a fan would help to cool the goats off and lower the temperatures inside their shelter when the temperatures are hotter than the outside air.

A fan blowing outwards towards an opening (window) will draw outside air in from another opening (door) and blows the inside hot air to the outside while replacing it with fresh air. There would be some drop to the room temperatures to probably the same or a little less than the current outside temperatures.

Before air conditioning was installed in most homes, a window fan(s) cooled the areas. At night and early morning, the fan(s) were set to blow inwards to bring the cooler air into the house. Once the heat of the day became stifling, the setting was changed to blow outwards and removed a significant amount of the hot stagnant air from the areas. The fan(s) were designed with a reversable motor, and the fan blade direction could be switched from inwards to outwards with 3 (three) speed settings and off.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Have you thought about having a turbine vent installed? They actually do cool and don't need any electricity.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Something else to consider and/or research more in depth, a fan blowing inwards circulates the air while creating a breeze that helps dry condensation (perspiration) from the skin for cooling effects. A fan does not visibly lower the room temperature by any measurable degrees. For these reasons, the wall mounted fan being considered possibly won't cool the shelter temperature down very much at all.
> 
> I may be wrong; I don't think a goat is capable of sweating and producing condensation to be dried off. So other than a fan mounted close to the ceiling creating a breeze across the top of the shelter, I just can't wrap my brain behind how a fan would help to cool the goats off and lower the temperatures inside their shelter when the temperatures are hotter than the outside air.
> 
> ...


You explained exactly what I was going to ask. In our house we can reverse the direction the fan blades spin, so I was going to ask if you meant fan blades that spin backward, but I see what you are saying. Today, I grabbed a t-post, opened the second door, and jammed that t-post in the ground (don't have post pounder so I stood my big butt on the spade part and jumped up and down lol) keeping that second door wide. Easily a ten degree difference in there. They are actually going in.

Of course, I read your following statement, lol, about reversible motors and immediately started looking. I think that would be a good thing. And I also read that goats do not perspire - I've said "sweat" through their horns, but that's not actually what I mean - my friend said they help release heat through their horns? I'm looking now at those fans - if I have to spend extra, then I spend extra. I'll work more hours if I have to.

EDIT: The only fans I can find with actual reversible motors are ceiling fans and the barn is not wired with electricity. So, the mountable fan i'm planning on getting can face the window to blow out hot air and bring in the fresh air. Time to start working a boat load of hours to save up for what I need


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

goathiker said:


> Have you thought about having a turbine vent installed? They actually do cool and don't need any electricity.


I didn't even know that was a thing. The only issue with that, as I've done some research, is it's quite pricey from what I've found, and it definitely isn't something I could afford this summer. It IS something I can save up for, though. In the mean time, I'm looking at @NigerianNewbie suggestion on reversible motors. For now, they're more affordable for me. Plus, working at TSC I get a discount and can probably have one ordered with no shipping cost if we don't have them in stock


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> Today, I grabbed a t-post, opened the second door, and jammed that t-post in the ground (don't have post pounder so I stood my big butt on the spade part and jumped up and down lol)


I have a pounder and it gets mighty heavy quicker than the job lasts. I use a 2.5 lb short handle sledge to tame those beasts with.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> So, the mountable fan i'm planning on getting can face the window to blow out hot air and bring in the fresh air.


A fan mounted inside of the window would do a more efficient job of moving the air through (cross current) than a mounted fan against the wall pointing towards the window. Also, an added perk, a window fan isn't hard at all to turn around to the flip side to change the direction the air blows. Just raise the window up, measure the opening top to bottom, then side to side so you'll have the dimensions to figure out what would fit.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

The only drawback to a window fan would be having to remove it from the window when it rains. They aren't heavy though, so it would only need somewhere to store it outside of the shelter to keep it away from goat teeth wanting to chew the cord and stuff.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

And something else I just realized, with a window fan the outdoor extension cord could be run outside through the window without having to drill a plug hole through the wall of your shelter. Maybe the best advantage of all, you could install a window fan all by yourself without needing to enlist help. Just run the extension cord up the side of the shelter, lightly fastened in place with some fence staples and across to wherever the extension cord needs to go from there.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> A fan mounted inside of the window would do a more efficient job of moving the air through (cross current) than a mounted fan against the wall pointing towards the window. Also, an added perk, a window fan isn't hard at all to turn around to the flip side to change the direction the air blows. Just raise the window up, measure the opening top to bottom, then side to side so you'll have the dimensions to figure out what would fit.


The window is smaller than I thought it would be. Certainly big enough for airflow, but I’ll take a measurement. I have a funny feeling the dimensions are going to be odd enough it might be difficult to find the right size, but I’ll do the measuring.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> And something else I just realized, with a window fan the outdoor extension cord could be run outside through the window without having to drill a plug hole through the wall of your shelter. Maybe the best advantage of all, you could install a window fan all by yourself without needing to enlist help. Just run the extension cord up the side of the shelter, lightly fastened in place with some fence staples and across to wherever the extension cord needs to go from there.


This is true and optimal. My worry is them knocking the fan out of the window. Those boys can be mischievous 😆


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> I have a pounder and it gets mighty heavy quicker than the job lasts. I use a 2.5 lb short handle sledge to tame those beasts with.


We did use a sledge hammer at one point - Sam had an easier time picking it up with the long handle, not so great on actually hitting the T-post and I am sure I came close to getting my arm broken a couple times LOL I could hit the mark but only if I held the handle closer to the head. So, jumping on the spade is the compromise lol


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

A window fan would be great if you can get one. It would be easy enough to put in little braces to keep them from knocking it out. 

And as far as the t-post pounder, I see my husband and son using them like they are light as feathers and think, ok, I’ll do a few now. Then I get a t-post half way in and regret my decision to volunteer to pound a few in for them. Luckily, it takes me so long that they also usually regret my volunteering and offer to take over.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> A window fan would be great if you can get one. It would be easy enough to put in little braces to keep them from knocking it out.
> 
> And as far as the t-post pounder, I see my husband and son using them like they are light as feathers and think, ok, I’ll do a few now. Then I get a t-post half way in and regret my decision to volunteer to pound a few in for them. Luckily, it takes me so long that they also usually regret my volunteering and offer to take over.


LOL I make my son help me - he's not super strong, but he can lift some things I can't. There ARE other things people end up regretting my volunteering to help haha... Like weed whacking... I'm so short the dang thing is awkward for me, and it ends up looking terrible, so Sam did a lot of it yesterday in the front yard (lawnmower is broken), so... at least the benefit is I can rake up the grass and stuff cut down and let it dry after the rain, maybe give it to the goaties


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> A fan mounted inside of the window would do a more efficient job of moving the air through (cross current) than a mounted fan against the wall pointing towards the window. Also, an added perk, a window fan isn't hard at all to turn around to the flip side to change the direction the air blows. Just raise the window up, measure the opening top to bottom, then side to side so you'll have the dimensions to figure out what would fit.


I may have found something... window fan it looks like it is definitely small enough! i could always use a tarp to cover the outside if it is raining (and obviously have to shut it off). I can't afford it right now, but in a couple weeks I could!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

@FizzyGoats I actually did not rake up grass and feed it to them. I was told that was a bad idea. Not actually related to their housing, but I had that in my response to you so I wanted to correct myself  

Actually been nice the last few days - their little barn has been giving them lots of shade with a great, cool breeze going through!


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I’ve heard that about grass too. It has to be super fresh or totally dry and nothing in between is good for them. 

I’m glad it is working out! As hard as you were working at it and as determined as you were to make them comfortable, I had no doubt you’d get there. I call all these steps in between the adjustment frustrations. We all go through it when there’s changes, and there are almost always changes. Lol.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

I wondered about their enclosure... they, strangely, tend to stay up front toward the gate which is, funny enough, the SMALLER portion of it. They haven't realized yet, or are just too stubborn, that the grass/forage in the larger area of the enclosure is the same stuff they try to get out into the yard to eat. Anyway, that area they tend to stay in gets beaten down, which is okay, but there is lots of poop and sometimes mud. I try to rake up what I can, but I'm sure you all know how stuff can get squished up in their hooves (which I'm going to pick/brush to clean out) stuff can get. I only have 4 cement blocks to put in front of the door to their house, so that will give them a little something to scrape hooves against and also keep the hooves out of any muddy/wet stuff in front of the door. So, i have a 50lb bag of all purpose sand. Will that even do anything if I put some in the area they are in the most? Someone suggested putting shavings out there, but I disagree - those are just going to get nasty, especially when it rains. I have straw, too, but would also need raking (which isn't hard). Just wondering what anyone would suggest for that area in terms of what to put down to reduce mud/poop getting mashed into their hooves. I would love to just put a hard area of concrete or something, but that's way too expensive right now.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

If you’re putting it outside, I would think straw or shavings would make a mess. Sand can be great but I’m not sure how much you’d need to make a real difference. 

My does’ pen gets really muddy but they don’t spend much time in it. They’re usually wandering around the acreage instead, so I don’t do anything other than clean it once or twice a week. And I do get it fairly clean. The pen is also sloped and I walk across it to get to the bucks and toms, so I put a few concrete blocks on the slope part so I’d stop slipping and falling in the mud.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> If you’re putting it outside, I would think straw or shavings would make a mess. Sand can be great but I’m not sure how much you’d need to make a real difference.
> 
> My does’ pen gets really muddy but they don’t spend much time in it. They’re usually wandering around the acreage instead, so I don’t do anything other than clean it once or twice a week. And I do get it fairly clean. The pen is also sloped and I walk across it to get to the bucks and toms, so I put a few concrete blocks on the slope part so I’d stop slipping and falling in the mud.


They do stay in the enclosure mainly because my step-father has not taken care of the lawn outside of it at ALL, and there are weeds I don’t recognize in there and I don’t want to risk anything being toxic to them. Last year after it was mowed the first time and the grass grew back in, I didn’t see anything else like that. I don’t THINK there is anything harmful (other than buttercups), but with him not caring for the lawn and the fact they would go nuts eating and probably bloat, i keep them in the enclosure for safety reasons. They have an entire area - the biggest part, of course, that they just… don’t go into. It’s the best area for play, running around, etc. I’m putting their enrichment stuff over there to see if that helps. Even when i was in there with them they didn’t seem keen on going over there, so as someone suggested on here before, there might be something that scares them or just freaks them out.

Anyway, the small area… i think it would help at least a little to do sand. Less slippery than mud for sure, and I have 4 concrete blocks I can use that are going in front of the barn door, not just to keep me from busting my rear, but also to give them something hard to scrape those hooves on at least a little. I have a 50lb bag of sand and it cost me 5$ so it’s not like i can’t get another if I find it helps, you know? Someone (where I live, not on here) told me they can’t have sand because they eat it, but I never heard that… My son is going to grab the sand out of the car tomorrow, I’m going to rake up the yucky stuff and get rid of it, and then we can try sand and at least cover the place where they are often standing/eating/pooping so it doesn’t get so muddy/squishy. I don’t know about anyone else, but I’d rather step on wet sand than wet, muddy poop; I figure it’s probably better for them too


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

andunham said:


> I don’t know about anyone else, but I’d rather step on wet sand than wet, muddy poop;


That's the spirit 😁 I've said the same thing


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

21goaties said:


> That's the spirit 😁 I've said the same thing


😃


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> They haven't realized yet, or are just too stubborn, that the grass/forage in the larger area of the enclosure is the same stuff they try to get out into the yard to eat.


Is the grass in the enclosure shorter than the yard and have they already eaten the weeds down?



andunham said:


> not taken care of the lawn outside of it at ALL, and there are weeds I don’t recognize in there and I don’t want to risk anything being toxic to them. Last year after it was mowed the first time and the grass grew back in, I didn’t see anything else like that. I don’t THINK there is anything harmful (other than buttercups), but with him not caring for the lawn and the fact they would go nuts eating and probably bloat, i keep them in the enclosure for safety reasons.





andunham said:


> They are loving the green - I did a slow progression once the green started coming out so they didn’t eat too much lush stuff and bloat.


Same principle would apply towards letting them out into the area on the other side of their enclosure. As for uncertainty about plants, weeds and/or trees, identifying what you are suspicious of and researching whether it is toxic or not would bring a level of peace of mind when worried.



andunham said:


> strangely, tend to stay up front toward the gate


Hanging out around the gate is something all goats seem to do. Especially when they hear you come home, or open the doors to go outside, or it's close to time to be fed, or it's a spot they like to lounge and chew cud, or it's a spot they like to catch some sun, or because it's closer to the safety of their shelter and where there is food/water located.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Is the grass in the enclosure shorter than the yard and have they already eaten the weeds down?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, there is plenty of this I didn't even think of, honestly. I think I've been overwhelmed with non-goat stuff and just couldn't think clearly. The grass or whatever it is in the larger side of the enclosure is pretty untouched. Usually wherever I go they go, but they do not like going over there, which leads me to believe the initial suggestion something is scaring them is right. Perhaps something is coming through there - some small animal - and hiding under the shed at night? I'm going to put some galvanized wire fencing around there just in case. I'm literally going to go out there and just pull up whatever overgrown plants/grass is in there - mostly some kind of plant - and toss it over the fence. I've seen them frolicking, for lack of a better word, when that area was much shorter and seeing them refuse to even go over there... yeah, something is freaking them out and well, Mama to the rescue lol 

I need to get them some harnesses that fit, or try to figure out something - Flower does NOT like the head collar - last time I put it on him was a wrestling match, and then taking it off I got a horn in the forehead and the jaw, which was not fun or comfortable. Snowball, he doesn't like it, but once he realizes i'm not letting him go, he kind of just... gives in. In terms of forage outside the pen, some inspection and pictures from last year shows me it is all pretty much the same; minus the buttercups which will go - they generally avoid the crap they don't want. I can pull up the buttercups easily. I just know my boys and they might not fall for the "Mama has food lets follow her back in the small space" if they have lots of good green stuff (which I know, from learning here and reading, that is too lush to let them go to town on for as long as they want). i mean, maybe they will (they used to) but I also know my step-father sprayed weed killer in one area they like to go in, so I kinda do need to have them on leashes to keep them away from there. I don't like things around their necks - it really freaks me out. That time Snowball got stuck in the cattle panel, trying to get him out almost choked him, and I hear horror stories of goats strangling themselves. Even though I'd be with them, I'd worry about yoking their necks or something and doing damage or something. Man, i worry A LOT, i know.

For the chilling by the gate, @happybleats said pretty much the same. When it's NOT hot out or too sunny, they tend to lie right there and I always check to make sure they're good, which is chewing cud and hanging out. I actually have friends coming over today, one of which who is at least a foot or more taller than me, who can help me set up the temporary lean-to. I figured out why it wasn't working for shade initially... One, it needs to be closer to the side of the barn; two, when I attach the tarp to the top, it needs to come down OVER the other side of the fence. i haven't figured out the barrier for the North side because if I use a tarp they will chew the crap out of it lol We could also do some planning to find a way to get just a simple canopy (that won't blow all the way across my yard with a 10 MPH wind) near the gate. Also, taking the advice of just about everyone, lol, I have BOTH shed doors open during the day; it decreases the temp in there at least 15 degrees and the breeze through it is nice and comfortable. Doing another total clean out of bedding - wow, they mess it up fast! - mostly poop, lots of poop haha. Funny enough, they tend to pee in the exact same areas - off to the sides and not in the middle...so they are able to lie in there, too, now and I worry much less than I did before.

With all the advice here and reminders that yeah, speed bumps and all that, improvising is okay and taking time to figure things out is okay as long as they have what they need. I'm in a weirdly emotional place right now lol They are a almost 14 months old and I look back at all of this stuff we've gone through, how hard I - WE worked (them and all of you, too) to keep them alive, healthy and happy, and seeing SO MUCH improvement almost scares me because it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop, which I need to stop doing.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

21goaties said:


> That's the spirit 😁 I've said the same thing


I mean, it stands to reason, right?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Is the grass in the enclosure shorter than the yard and have they already eaten the weeds down?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One more thing to ask: would a breeding harness work to lead them around? I mean, obviously they aren’t breeding but it saves me the trouble trying to use the head harness or another kind that I have to lift their leg into…


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

andunham said:


> They are a almost 14 months old and I look back at all of this stuff we've gone through, how hard I - WE worked (them and all of you, too) to keep them alive, healthy and happy, and seeing SO MUCH improvement almost scares me because it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop, which I need to stop doing.


Oh, I feel you. I am so often the same way. You’ve come a long way and need to give yourself credit for all you’ve accomplished, learned, and overcome. 

You might find that the goats just stay with you, even without a harness or lead. And if they are food motivated, you can always bribe them to follow you around. However, I completely understand wanting the assurance of a lead and harness. Whatever you choose, work with it on them inside the pen where they are comfortable. Use affection and/or treats to reward them when they take a single step forward with pressure on the lead. They’ll get the idea quickly. 

I wonder if they saw a snake or something in the grass. A snake scared one of my goats who would not walk on a certain hill for months. Funny enough, none of the other goats cared. I wish they cared a little because we have venomous snakes out here. Though it was a grumpy garter snake that scared my one doe. The others were unfortunately more curious than scared. 

I also feel you in the possibility of dangerous plants. I live in a heavily wooded area. We have tons of trees, wild cherry among them. I’ve removed all the cherry trees in the five acres around the house and barn that I can. The remaining cherry trees are too massive and in too precarious of an area to be taken down. It scares me a lot. Not only that, I took out 50 saplings of cherry trees just walking the property the other day. I have more acreage I want to open up to them and I’ve had to accept I cannot clear it all. I wish I had a magic answer for you on it, but I don’t. 

As far as the plants in the field that you’re unsure of, there’s a free app called PlantNet that is amazing to help identify all sorts of plants and put your mind at ease. If you do decide to take them out, I’d start with just a half hour outing and build up from there so they slowly get used to the forage and the harnesses. 

And, yes, stepping in wet sand is way better than mud and poop. [mention]MadHouse [/mention]did an entire dry lot in sand for her goats and it is amazing!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> You might find that the goats just stay with you, even without a harness or lead. And if they are food motivated, you can always bribe them to follow you around. However, I completely understand wanting the assurance of a lead and harness. Whatever you choose, work with it on them inside the pen where they are comfortable. Use affection and/or treats to reward them when they take a single step forward with pressure on the lead. They’ll get the idea quickly.


You're right. They used to walk on dog harnesses, lol, frequently and did well. I'm looking for one where I don't have to pick up their legs to stick through and the only one I've found like that is a breeding harness, but... well, they aren't going to be breeding lol


FizzyGoats said:


> I wonder if they saw a snake or something in the grass. A snake scared one of my goats who would not walk on a certain hill for months. Funny enough, none of the other goats cared. I wish they cared a little because we have venomous snakes out here. Though it was a grumpy garter snake that scared my one doe. The others were unfortunately more curious than scared.


That is entirely possible! We tend to get some good garter snakes around here - my son and I have no fear of them so we will carefully pick them up when we see them and set them over the back fence. We also have some pretty big bunnies back there, but I would laugh pretty hard if that kept them away from there. I had my mom take a look today; Flower was standing right at the edge of where that area is, alert as can be, just watching that direction. He took a few steps, stopped, and then didn't go any further.


FizzyGoats said:


> As far as the plants in the field that you’re unsure of, there’s a free app called PlantNet that is amazing to help identify all sorts of plants and put your mind at ease.


I think I'll be doing that. I had a plant app before, not that one, and I would wait MONTHS for answers and I can't wait months lol.


FizzyGoats said:


> Oh, I feel you. I am so often the same way. You’ve come a long way and need to give yourself credit for all you’ve accomplished, learned, and overcome.


This is so comforting to me. People always say to give myself credit, but I have a hard time doing that lol Character flaw. Thank you for all of this!


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> One more thing to ask: would a breeding harness work to lead them around? I mean, obviously they aren’t breeding but it saves me the trouble trying to use the head harness or another kind that I have to lift their leg into…


Are you asking about the contraption that has a single strap sort of like a belt that fits around the chest close to the front legs? Similar to an anti-mating apron except instead of a bib, there's a pocket to hold a marking crayon?

If I am correct about what a mating harness looks like, the answer is, it would be easier for them to pull out of it than a harness, halter or collar.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Why can't you just put a collar on them?


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Why can't you just put a collar on them?


For some reason I thought I was not supposed to because goats strangle easily? I could just be losing my mind.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> For some reason I thought I was not supposed to because goats strangle easily? I could just be losing my mind.


There are sometimes risks involved with leaving certain types of collars on a goat 24/7 depending on the circumstances. 

A goat could get a horn hooked under a collar and accidently choke another goat. So only putting the collar(s) on your boys when you plan on using them and removing them afterwards would be a cautious approach. I would discourage using a breakaway collar if the goat is prone to displaying inappropriate leading behavior.

There isn't an increased risk of strangling using a collar for walking or leading a goat. Having a goat trained to walk with a leash is beneficial in many different ways.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> There are sometimes risks involved with leaving certain types of collars on a goat 24/7 depending on the circumstances.
> 
> A goat could get a horn hooked under a collar and accidently choke another goat. So only putting the collar(s) on your boys when you plan on using them and removing them afterwards would be a cautious approach. I would discourage using a breakaway collar if the goat is prone to displaying inappropriate leading behavior.
> 
> There isn't an increased risk of strangling using a collar for walking or leading a goat. Having a goat trained to walk with a leash is beneficial in many different ways.


I like this. I can get one of the collars that has a plastic buckle (the ones that snap together but do not break away) and only use the collars when walking… I would be comfortable with that. I can then, just as you said, take collars off and lose the risk of any strangulation. They probably can’t pull as hard as a dog to choke themselves… They are pretty small; neither of them are even 100lbs, so even with some struggling (likely Flower lol) they would get the hang of it. Go a little at a time for training… Yeah, I like this idea. Related to this, since I’ll have to use collar/leash to get them there (and I’m not sure if I asked this before), does this apply to the stanchion too? They’ve never been on one and my friend here was like “get them on there and do their hooves” but I worry Flower will freak out. Would doing it like 5-10 minutes at a time, with food of course, be better? It only takes me about 4 minutes to do Snowball’s hooves, takes a little longer with my Flower because he fights it.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

My goats lead with a collar and/or a halter (not always willingly) and I haven’t had issues with either. Like mentioned, I don’t leave the collars on. They are just for when I’m leading them. 

All my goats, bucks included, eat a few meals a week on the stand to get and stay used to it. This is when I give them their weekly herbs and oils, when I rub them down with a natural fly/mosquito/tick repellent, and how I do yearly shots and monthly hoof trimmings. I also have the weight sling hooked up right above it, so I can easily put the sling on and weigh them. It makes life easier. My vet likes to put them on it sometimes when he’s doing his thing too, so he appreciate that they are all excited to get on the stand and happy and comfortable on it. For the first few times I have mine up there, I just feed them and maybe brush them. Make it nice and enjoyable. Once they are comfortable up there (usually only takes a few times), I start doing more. It’s a good time to do a body condition score, pick up hooves just to check on them, take a temp, or check FAMACHA.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> My goats lead with a collar and/or a halter (not always willingly) and I haven’t had issues with either. Like mentioned, I don’t leave the collars on. They are just for when I’m leading them.
> 
> All my goats, bucks included, eat a few meals a week on the stand to get and stay used to it. This is when I give them their weekly herbs and oils, when I rub them down with a natural fly/mosquito/tick repellent, and how I do yearly shots and monthly hoof trimmings. I also have the weight sling hooked up right above it, so I can easily put the sling on and weigh them. It makes life easier. My vet likes to put them on it sometimes when he’s doing his thing too, so he appreciate that they are all excited to get on the stand and happy and comfortable on it. For the first few times I have mine up there, I just feed them and maybe brush them. Make it nice and enjoyable. Once they are comfortable up there (usually only takes a few times), I start doing more. It’s a good time to do a body condition score, pick up hooves just to check on them, take a temp, or check FAMACHA.


I’m definitely taking the advice on collars/leashes. 

This is fantastic advice on the stanchion and I’ll be taking this advice, too. I knew just throwing them on there and making them deal with whatever I’m doing was a bad idea, especially since they have never been on it. I think I’ll try this today; Flower first because he’s my naughty child lol. I need a weight sling - looking up info on that because I just can’t pick them up anymore and get on my scale. One, they really don’t like it lol and two, I’m just not strong enough. My boys need hoof trimmings very often - we did them 4 weeks ago and they seem overgrown. Maybe they just grow faster (and also don’t have hard surfaces to scrape on). What do you use for fly/mosquito/tick repellent? I just don’t want to be using chemicals all the time. If you don’t mind me asking this also, what do you give them weekly for herbs and oils? I’m really liking the holistic approach with them - I’m seeing a difference and it’s less fighting to get medicines/shots into them to correct problems instead of preventing them and/or just keeping them healthy.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> They probably can’t pull as hard as a dog to choke themselves…


You would be surprised how hard they can pull and those mad dashes to run away could easily throw a person off balance. For these reasons, a halter helps control the head similar to a horse and is a great equalizer in circumstances that require a tighter control. (Vet visit, being loaded, hoof trims, vaccinations, traveling to areas they aren't familiar or comfortable with, etc.)

I had a particularly stubborn and resistant, then an adolescent aged boy, when it came to behaving while wearing a collar for leading. (Walked lovely with a halter though.) Leash burns a couple of times, then face planting me, and playing catch me if you can in one session. (This was an escalation from the usual jerking to pull away, refusing to walk, and determination to travel his own direction no matter what.) The day he managed to drag me down, I waited until he meandered into his stall because chasing them is nothing but a joke, took up the lead he had been dragging behind and tied him to a stout 4X4 upright nearby with the lead short enough he couldn't tangle his legs or get a running start.(Approximatively two foot length) Left him alone to fight against that collar and lead until he figured out acting like a fool wouldn't get him anywhere and immediately carried on with busy work while watching him out of my side eye. Gave him some praise and loving after he stood quietly for several minutes before being released. Poor little hardheaded guy had to be restrained in this way once again on a different day to a sturdy sapling outside of the dry lot. From then on out, he has remained extremely well behaved wearing a collar with a lead when necessary whether inside or outside the lot.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I use Wondercide pet spray to repel flies, mosquitoes, and ticks. If you have essential oils, you can make your own as that’s what it’s made from. I spray it on a rag and wipe them down. My herbal prevention is LOH parasite formula. I add orange and oregano essential oils once a week, and sometimes I’ll add either lemongrass or clove EOs. I give my herbs and oils on the stand because that is the only time my goats get about a tablespoon of BOSS after their meal. I normally add wheatgerm oil to the seeds, but if I’m giving an EO, I usually use coconut oil instead or sometimes olive oil. They love the BOSS and will devour it, so I can mix pretty much whatever I want with in their tablespoon of deliciousness and they’ll take it. It’s my cheat code. At least for now. Lol.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I use Wondercide pet spray to repel flies, mosquitoes, and ticks. If you have essential oils, you can make your own as that’s what it’s made from. I spray it on a rag and wipe them down. My herbal prevention is LOH parasite formula. I add orange and oregano essential oils once a week, and sometimes I’ll add either lemongrass or clove EOs. I give my herbs and oils on the stand because that is the only time my goats get about a tablespoon of BOSS after their meal. I normally add wheatgerm oil to the seeds, but if I’m giving an EO, I usually use coconut oil instead or sometimes olive oil. They love the BOSS and will devour it, so I can mix pretty much whatever I want with in their tablespoon of deliciousness and they’ll take it. It’s my cheat code. At least for now. Lol.


Thank you! I was chatting with Megan from Little Avalon Farm, too, and what she uses is pretty similar! Is wondercide like cedarcide? I was looking at both, and possibly making my own. That's also a great idea about BOSS - I haven't given it to them in a while because, well, I forgot about it  We're gonna try the stand tomorrow - it is just so hot out (more humid than anything) and they want to just lie around, so i'm letting them. But, after they eat tomorrow i'll try that. I'm trying to figure out what the heck to give Flower when on the stand because what Snowball eats in 5 minutes, Flower eats in 2 minutes. I thought about making them a little "goat salad" lol


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

For Flower, a few golf ball sized rocks in the bowl will slow down eating so fast because of having to pick around the rocks to get to the feed.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> For Flower, a few golf ball sized rocks in the bowl will slow down eating so fast because of having to pick around the rocks to get to the feed.


You know… I did try that once… I took a rock out of his mouth 🙄 scared the crap out of me! 😆 the stanchion built for me has a little space where you can put the feeder that just hooks over a wall/fence and I’ve got a rock he CANT fit in his mouth lol might just move that around since it’s free instead of buying one of those maze bowls dogs use. That goof tries to eat a full ice cube yesterday! I started adding some crushed ice, too, and put it separate for my little weirdo so he can eat it if he wants 😂


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

A few big rocks is a great idea. Usually they won’t try to eat them, but Flower sounds like a special case. Lol. So as long as the rocks are big enough, that should slow him down. 

I think the Wondercide I use is very similar to Cedarcide.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> but Flower sounds like a special case.


Oh he is special alright 🤣 but in a lot of wonderful ways, too 💕

For cedarcide vs. wondercide, they are pretty similar, like you said. There are several places that say wondercide is better in terms of pets because of specialized products (flea and tick collars don't apply, though). The only other difference is some of the ingredients and that wondercide is more oily, which doesn't matter to me. One question i do have, even though it DOES say it's non-toxic: have your goats ever licked it and had any reactions? I'm leaning toward wondercide with all of the reviews, and that you use it.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I think you’d be ok with either product. I haven’t noticed it being oily but haven’t ever used Cedarcide as a comparison. And this is my first season using Wondercide. My goats have never licked it, but they have nibbled a spot here or there that had it with no ill effects. I just spray it on a rag and rub them down with it every other day while they eat breakfast. It has done wonders to keep them from being so bothered by all the winged pests. I have the pet/home kind that kills and repels fleas, ticks, and mosquitoes, and it seems to deter all the various flies around here too, though I don’t believe that’s on the actual description on the bottle.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I think you’d be ok with either product. I haven’t noticed it being oily but haven’t ever used Cedarcide as a comparison. And this is my first season using Wondercide. My goats have never licked it, but they have nibbled a spot here or there that had it with no ill effects. I just spray it on a rag and rub them down with it every other day while they eat breakfast. It has done wonders to keep them from being so bothered by all the winged pests. I have the pet/home kind that kills and repels fleas, ticks, and mosquitoes, and it seems to deter all the various flies around here too, though I don’t believe that’s on the actual description on the bottle.


I think I’ll try it. Thank you for the info 🙂


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I think you’d be ok with either product. I haven’t noticed it being oily but haven’t ever used Cedarcide as a comparison. And this is my first season using Wondercide. My goats have never licked it, but they have nibbled a spot here or there that had it with no ill effects. I just spray it on a rag and rub them down with it every other day while they eat breakfast. It has done wonders to keep them from being so bothered by all the winged pests. I have the pet/home kind that kills and repels fleas, ticks, and mosquitoes, and it seems to deter all the various flies around here too, though I don’t believe that’s on the actual description on the bottle.


I think I’ll try it. Thank you for the info 🙂 there are a bunch of different options so I appreciate you telling me which one you use for your goats ☺ I just want them to not be uncomfortable. Any particular scent you like? It doesn’t particularly matter lol just interested in which one you like


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I think I got the lemon scent but I wish I got the other one, cedar, I think. Only because my dogs hate it and I’m wondering if they would have liked the other one better. My goats don’t seem to mind it at all.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I think I got the lemon scent but I wish I got the other one, cedar, I think. Only because my dogs hate it and I’m wondering if they would have liked the other one better. My goats don’t seem to mind it at all.


I was leaning toward cedar. It is one of my absolute favorite scents on earth. Wouldn’t hurt for the dogs either… my parents are extremely irresponsible with flea/tick control (I will go broke for stuff like that because I want that crap to stay outside and off animals). Maybe they should get it too!


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

So I never noticed it being oily, but now that you’ve asked about it, I am more aware and there is a slight oily feeling to it. It doesn’t last though. Hopefully I didn’t mislead you on that. I just never noticed it until you mentioned it.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> So I never noticed it being oily, but now that you’ve asked about it, I am more aware and there is a slight oily feeling to it. It doesn’t last though. Hopefully I didn’t mislead you on that. I just never noticed it until you mentioned it.


No worries! I don't mind it being a little oily. i got it from amazon, so hopefully, if I don't like it they will take it back. I JUST tried it today, and I got the cedar scent, but man... it STINKS. lol I'm very sensitive to smells so i thought it was just me, but my son was like "that smells" LOL


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> So I never noticed it being oily, but now that you’ve asked about it, I am more aware and there is a slight oily feeling to it. It doesn’t last though. Hopefully I didn’t mislead you on that. I just never noticed it until you mentioned it.


Also, my whining about it smelling bad (to me) - it was gone in ten minutes lol Only smelled cedar. Now, crossing my fingers it is successful. I've seen a decrease in head shaking and hoof stomping today!


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

Well that sounds promising. And maybe I’ll just stick with my lemon scent. Lol.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> Well that sounds promising. And maybe I’ll just stick with my lemon scent. Lol.


I’m noticing they are still head shaking intermittently. I was told if they have ear mites it would look dirty and/or crusty but nothing there! I’m thinking about getting the wondercide to spray the perimeter to see how that works, too.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

I think this is related to housing since it includes a question (or a few) about the enclosure around their housing. They have one area where they are frequently, over by the gate, and naturally, there is a lot of poop and pee there. I'm totally okay with raking stuff up into a pooper-scooper type thing (think dust pan with a long handle), but that only does so much in terms of stink. There isn't some god awful, horrendous smell, but it does stink in that area. I have started putting sand down, but circumstances and low income are preventing me from getting the amount i need, and same goes for concrete blocks. Do any of you have any suggestions or things you do for odor control? Inside their shed (barn, whatever I call it on that day haha), in between clean outs (doing at least 1x a week now), I use Sweet PDZ stall refresher and it works great, but I'd rather not spend the money on that to just pour it all over the ground.

So... essentially looking for any practices you all might use, suggestions, ideas, etc. on how to control that mild stink in that area in the enclosure (in addition to raking and starting the process of covering the area in sand).


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Barn lime is cheaper than PDZ.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Barn lime is cheaper than PDZ.


I just looked it up  My first question was going to be if it is safe for my boys, which it 100% is. I was going to ask because these two… man, they are the kids who ate glue in kindergarten (that’s not meant as derogatory, just their strange curiosity) lol, they were tasting the sand yesterday and I had to use the spray bottle. Clearly, they have realized the sand doesn’t taste good.

This is useable outside in that area, or should I be looking at something additional to go with it? I know it would have to be raked up - don’t want a build up of yucky stuff getting smushed into their hooves (right?). Kind if like litter in terms of cleaning it up? Sorry if these seem like strange questions - I just want to make sure I’m taking all the right steps. With all the soft mud and trodden poop… cleaning out hooves before trimming was gross lol not that i haven’t done it before.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You would probably have to sprinkle some daily. You'd have to play around with the amount.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> You would probably have to sprinkle some daily. You'd have to play around with the amount.


I saw it was 3.99 for a FIFTY pound bag! The Sweet PDZ is 10$ for 20 pounds. I’d have to put a decent amount down - a little more than a sprinkle initially, but then play around with how much I need to add/rake up, etc. just like you said. This is doable. It is an affordable, temporary fix until can get enough sand and concrete blocks to make a difference


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I use barn lime all the time. I only use PDZ once or twice a week in the goat barn because of the price. Lime is daily for me. I use it in the turkey coop too with all the baby poults. And in the chicken coop. Seems to work really well and so far no one has had any issues with it, not the goats or the birds.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I use barn lime all the time. I only use PDZ once or twice a week in the goat barn because of the price. Lime is daily for me. I use it in the turkey coop too with all the baby poults. And in the chicken coop. Seems to work really well and so far no one has had any issues with it, not the goats or the birds.


I think this is my best option right now. Sand isn’t feasible right now, and the barn lime seems like the best bet for that area in front of the gate, even if it is outside. From what I’m reading, if it gets wet it’s not an issue either for the animals, so I’m pretty sold on this


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I will warn you it can get a bit slick sometimes when wet. Most of it has little gravelly bits in it now to combat that.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I will warn you it can get a bit slick sometimes when wet. Most of it has little gravelly bits in it now to combat that.


I'll have to ask one of the ladies I work with - she has horses and I know she mentioned barn lime at some point. I don't want anything slick just because I don't want them to fall and I certainly don't want to fall lol i fell once and got a concussion and surgery on my hand - I'd rather steer clear of any more of that haha

Someone I worked with said to just use dirt but... no one around here is just giving away dirt, so the option is to buy soil from work, and that's not cost effective at all lol So, I'll have to experiment with some things; it's just that spot and one other, so once the odor is controlled in those two places, i think we'll be golden until I can afford to do all the things i have planned. Thank you for all the info, too


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> Well that sounds promising. And maybe I’ll just stick with my lemon scent. Lol.


How long did it take before you saw results with the Wondercide? Sometimes it seems like there is improvement with the annoying flies for them (those little ones) other times it seems like there isn’t. 🤔


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

andunham said:


> How long did it take before you saw results with the Wondercide? Sometimes it seems like there is improvement with the annoying flies for them (those little ones) other times it seems like there isn’t.


Right away. If the bugs are really bad, I’ll wipe them down daily with it. If not, it’s every other day and though they still get bugged (hahaha) on occasion, it’s not nearly as bad.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> Right away. If the bugs are really bad, I’ll wipe them down daily with it. If not, it’s every other day and though they still get bugged (hahaha) on occasion, it’s not nearly as bad.


Okay. I thought I was doing something wrong. I'm going to do it every day; we have those little tiny flies or whatever they are and they drive them (and me) nuts. I'm going to get the big thing of Wondercide to spray their housing, too. I know people suggested fly strips but I'm not going to risk them falling down and getting stuck in fur, or worse, them trying to EAT IT because that's what they do with everything lol When I spray/wipe them down it always gets on me and it seems to work for me too haha. Now that that's all set, I just have to get bolt cutters... Need to cut 2 squares in the cattle panel (one at each end) large enough for them to stick their heads through and pull them back in. Why? Because my sweet, beautiful but not the smartest Flower, stuck his head through the one spot I didn't (apparently) cover all the way and got his head stuck. Again. THAT was a task getting him out... 🤦‍♀️


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> Get a small PVC pipe cut it to approximately 12 inches, then duct tape it to the horns. Here is a good example.
> Sheep in a Dunce Cap
> 
> It may have to be re taped from time to time.
> With kids, they grow, so she may not need the dunce hat after she gets big enough so her horns don't get caught.





andunham said:


> Need to cut 2 squares in the cattle panel (one at each end) large enough for them to stick their heads through and pull them back in. Why? Because my sweet, beautiful but not the smartest Flower, stuck his head through the one spot I didn't (apparently) cover all the way and got his head stuck. Again. THAT was a task getting him out...


If you are wanting to prevent Flower from sticking his head through the fence, cutting out spaces where he can fit without getting stuck would be encouraging him to keep testing the fence. Sort of like the principle of rewarding bad behavior.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yep, I agree ☝


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> If you are wanting to prevent Flower from sticking his head through the fence, cutting out spaces where he can fit without getting stuck would be encouraging him to keep testing the fence. Sort of like the principle of rewarding bad behavior.





NigerianNewbie said:


> If you are wanting to prevent Flower from sticking his head through the fence, cutting out spaces where he can fit without getting stuck would be encouraging him to keep testing the fence. Sort of like the principle of rewarding bad behavior.


Duct tape? I wouldn't have thought that was good to do lol My only other issue is how do i stop these, well, dunces, from eating the tape off of each other? How do you get the tape residue off of them when they don't need it anymore? I gotta admit, I laughed pretty hard at the example but was like, how does this work?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

andunham said:


> Duct tape?


Have seen examples of this being done with various types of tape and material other than PVC pipe for the straight cross piece.


andunham said:


> I wouldn't have thought that was good to do lol


There is only a small section of the horn being taped off, most of the actual horn is free from tape.


andunham said:


> My only other issue is how do i stop these, well, dunces, from eating the tape off of each other?


Would you need to tape both of them, instead of the problem child Flower? Don't know if wanting to eat the tape off would be problematic or not. I would just keep adding the tape back or replacing it as needed.


andunham said:


> How do you get the tape residue off of them when they don't need it anymore?


Probably a light coating of mineral oil would help rub the tape residue off between your fingers. 



andunham said:


> how does this work?


It works because the straight piece going across and attaching to each horn is wider than the opening in the panel, and the head no longer fits through. The goat eventually learns his head won't fit through the openings any longer and should hopefully stop testing the fence for weaknesses. Also, usually, the horns grow too wide to fit through the openings of the size cattle panel you are using, and they learn naturally poking a head through an opening is a waste of time. 

Any goat with its head stuck in a fence is in a dangerous position. Unfortunately, most of the time from herd mates bullying because of the compromised position of not being able to defend themselves.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Have seen examples of this being done with various types of tape and material other than PVC pipe for the straight cross piece.
> 
> 
> There is only a small section of the horn being taped off, most of the actual horn is free from tape.
> ...


Okay, I think it would be safe knowing I can get the residue off. I think just Flower needs it for now; Snow is less of the “let’s eat everything that looks like it’s not actual food” type lol


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> Right away. If the bugs are really bad, I’ll wipe them down daily with it. If not, it’s every other day and though they still get bugged (hahaha) on occasion, it’s not nearly as bad.


I definitely see an improvement. For around their heads I just spray my hand and pet them lol Now, I need to get fly control for in the barn - it was fine and then today I went out there and went omg where did these little pests come from all of a sudden! I want to get wondercide but can’t afford it right now; at my TSC we sell equine sprays but I don’t feel comfortable using them in the barn because i really don’t know if it’s truly safe for the boys. So… working on getting that wondercide or finding something safe for them in the meantime!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> I will warn you it can get a bit slick sometimes when wet. Most of it has little gravelly bits in it now to combat that.


It says non-slipping but if I put it outside right near the gate where they apparently like to pee a lot, I wonder if it would get really slippery… 🤔🤔🤔


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Worth trying


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

ksalvagno said:


> Worth trying


We’re going to put some down mixed with sand to preemptively avoid slipping just in case. I don’t mind busting my rear but I want the goats to stay upright lol currently trying to get them to just stay out of their shed and do something lol. Had advice that they may just be content and don’t need to be out, which is okay ☺ I finally have the little pallets to make some enrichment “toys” for climbing and sooooo excited to get those slats covered and stack them! I’ll make sure to put some pictures up of the play stuff in their pen when it’s done ☺


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

The flies are terrible. I use fly bag traps and it helps, but the flies are still everywhere. I’m glad to hear the Wondercide is helping on the goats anyway. 

That’s the barn lime I use and it has little granules in it for traction. The only time I’ve noticed it get slick was in the turkey pen and that’s because when I’m sweeping up their poo, the granules go with it. Then it gets rained on and turns into a slip and slide for me (never seen my animals slip on it though). For some weird reason, that didn’t happen in the goat pen even though I sweep there too. 


I can’t wait to see the enrichment structures you build! I love seeing them and getting ideas. If you’re really worried your boys are too sedentary, take them for little walks. Then you won’t worry so much when you see them lounging in their shed.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> The flies are terrible. I use fly bag traps and it helps, but the flies are still everywhere. I’m glad to hear the Wondercide is helping on the goats anyway.
> 
> That’s the barn lime I use and it has little granules in it for traction. The only time I’ve noticed it get slick was in the turkey pen and that’s because when I’m sweeping up their poo, the granules go with it. Then it gets rained on and turns into a slip and slide for me (never seen my animals slip on it though). For some weird reason, that didn’t happen in the goat pen even though I sweep there too.
> 
> ...


I have a new fly trap called Captivator - everyone I work with days next to fly strips, this is good. It smells HORRENDOUS.
I’m glad the stuff I got is the one with granules! I figure that and sand will also cover more area - at least the most stinky parts out by the gate.
It’s funny you mention walks… that’s our plan sometime this week! I have the collars and leashes for them and they are trying to get out of the pen every time we go in and out, so I think it will do them good! It’ll be shorter walks - 10 to 15 minutes so they don’t eat too much of the fresh green grassy stuff ☺


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

Sounds perfect! I can’t wait to her about the walks.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> Sounds perfect! I can’t wait to her about the walks.


☺☺☺


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

andunham said:


> I have a new fly trap called Captivator - everyone I work with days next to fly strips, this is good. It smells HORRENDOUS.
> I’m glad the stuff I got is the one with granules! I figure that and sand will also cover more area - at least the most stinky parts out by the gate.
> It’s funny you mention walks… that’s our plan sometime this week! I have the collars and leashes for them and they are trying to get out of the pen every time we go in and out, so I think it will do them good! It’ll be shorter walks - 10 to 15 minutes so they don’t eat too much of the fresh green grassy stuff ☺


Update on the pesticides/fly trap... Captivator trap? Good LORD. I could smell that it was bad BEFORE I mixed the stuff with water. After? My son got a great laugh as I was literally gagging and heaving! Still going to get fly paper or a fly stick to hang way up high. Outside their shed is much better, inside though, even when I'm scooping poop out every other day like a litter box, they are just in there and if it's annoying for me when I'm in there for short periods of time, i can't imagine how irritating it must be for them!


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> The flies are terrible. I use fly bag traps and it helps, but the flies are still everywhere. I’m glad to hear the Wondercide is helping on the goats anyway.
> 
> That’s the barn lime I use and it has little granules in it for traction. The only time I’ve noticed it get slick was in the turkey pen and that’s because when I’m sweeping up their poo, the granules go with it. Then it gets rained on and turns into a slip and slide for me (never seen my animals slip on it though). For some weird reason, that didn’t happen in the goat pen even though I sweep there too.
> 
> ...


So, this is what I’m working on until I get some bigger pallets. I put arrows where I would need to add stabilization so they don’t tip it over, and the spaced between the slats are going to be covered so no one’s hooves get stuck. Would this work as a starter? Or should I cover the slats on them and have one stand alone and then stack the other two like they have a two-step stairs?


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

Either way would work. It’s really easy to screw the pallets together before you cover the slats. Once you have it the way you want it, secure it, and then just cover the open slat and I bet they’ll love it.


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## andunham (Jul 4, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> Either way would work. It’s really easy to screw the pallets together before you cover the slats. Once you have it the way you want it, secure it, and then just cover the open slat and I bet they’ll love it.


I’m so excited. Not just because I’m finally getting this stuff for him, but I’m doing it on my own. 🙂


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