# First 4-H market wethers, laying down while leading - help!



## ProvidenceHill

My 11-year-old DD is raising her first 2 market wethers for the county fair in 3 weeks. She has been working with them almost every day for weeks now, but she is still having trouble getting one to lead reliably. She started him with a rope halter, but when he's had enough he would just lay down. We tried pulling a bit on the tail to keep him from going down, but no good. Finally I read a ton of posts/advice and bought a pinch collar. That does the trick, but she can't use that at the fair, so after a couple of weeks of leading him on that, she bought a leather and chain show collar. She switched to that and now he's back to his old laying down trick. First he hangs his head down and chokes himself, then lays down and won't get up. She is starting to get really worried about how he will do at the show. She's been working with them for weeks, but once he's on a show collar it looks like she's never led him at all. Please help! Right now when he lays down I help her get him up and she makes him walk on his hind legs for a few steps - honestly, sometimes that the only way she can get him back to his pen once he's decided he's in a "laying down" mood. We would appreciate any advice you all can offer; clearly he needs some motivation but I don't know what. Early on we tried treats, etc., but he didn't seem to care about that. It will be a huge disappointment for her if she ends up totally embarassed at the show even after she has spent weeks working with this goat.


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## canyontrailgoats

When he lays down keep a tight and constant pressure on his collar. Then we he gets up, release the pressure. He should learn that laying down means and uncomfortable feeling on his jaw. Not so much that you hurt him, but enough to discourage the habit. You can also try treats, when he follows willingly give a peanut or Apple slice as a reward.

Some goats do horrible at home, but walk like angels in the show ring. Fingers crossed that he's one of those!


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## ProvidenceHill

Thanks for the tip! Should we be using the show collar to do that?

I really do hope he turns out to be an angel at the fairgrounds. This is her first large animal project, and she's been so responsible and diligent that it will break my heart if she's humiliated the first time out.


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## BuckeyeRacket

When she is walking him, is he the only goat being walked? Some of my more stubborn kids would do better if they were following another goat.


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## ProvidenceHill

Well, her other wether has THAT problem! He digs in his feet and refuses to move forward unless he's following his brother. Our plan for now is to make sure he's lined up behind his brother to go into the ring (led by my DS as a favor to DD). So that means Mr. Laying Down always has to go first when we're working with them.

I do wonder if we should just stay on the pinch collar and not switch to the show collar until we are actually at the fair. Maybe if he's in the habit of walking nicely he'll keep doing it even if we switch collars at the last minute. I'm also thinking maybe she's actually working with them too much. He seems to be worse as the work session goes on. So the plan now is (1) keep him on the pinch collar; (2) work on leading every other day, not every day (and practice setting up/bracing on the off day); and (3) keep the leading lesson short -- one or two trips around the circular driveway, not 3 or 4. Does that sound like a good game plan?


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## HoosierShadow

My kids have this problem with their goats, especially this year, they are stinkers!
My oldest daughters wether is VERY bad about bulking and trying to fight her here at home. But he's an angel at the shows! He walks really well for her.
A couple of the young does that throw themselves down here at home, and protest walking on the chain collar, my kids ended up switching to prong collar's for training, and then used the chain collar at the shows. One of them does just fine at the shows, the other has her on and off days lol 
So.. switching at the fair may work. Or it may not. Only thing I could suggest is when you get the goat to the fair, practice with the regular chain collar and try to encourage the goat to relax and lead.
Being in a strange place, they may respond better.


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## Scottyhorse

Last year in a very competitive showmanship class, the judge had us switch goats. Prior to that, I had just shown Nigerian dwarfs. The judge gave me the WORST behaved market wether there. He was being SO stubborn, and even laid down like yours does. When he did that, I had tight pressure on the collar, tugged on his tail, and stuck my boot in the stomach. Probably didn't feel very great. And you know what, he behaved perfect after that  He knew I meant business. :shades: So, when your wether does that, have one hand holding pressure on the collar, and use your thumb to stick in his stomach. You can poke him fairly hard, it will be way more pleasant for him than choking :lol: Hopefully it will only take a few times, and then he will learn he can't do that.


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## Dani-1995

I bet he'll end up being a perfect angel at the show! Mine is the opposite... He is an angel at home but a major pain in the side at shows. 

Maybe if your concerned try spraying him with water when he lays down. The one I had like that was fixed with the prong collar. Since you can't use that one maybe put both on him... chain first then prong. Lead by chain, then when he lays down snatch him back up with the prong, then back to the chain. Some of them just need a stronger hand when it comes to training


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## ProvidenceHill

Thanks so much for the ideas and encouragement. I've tried the thumb-in-the-tummy trick on one of my dairy does who used to try to lay down on the stand and it worked like a charm -- I'll add that to the arsenal, along with a squirt bottle. 

He's been better in the past couple of days, since we decreased the frequency and length of leading lessons and kept the prong collar on. We may try the double-collar idea, although I'm not sure if DD is quick enough to drop one collar and grab the other as he starts to go down. Maybe I'll give it a shot myself.

It's an encouragement to hear that other kids are dealing with the same issues, so it's not like she'll be the only one there with a potentially challenging goat. Goats are naughty everywhere, I guess!


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## SMB_GoatHerd

My best friend started showing market 2 years ago. Her first year, we went into the ring, her following I in showmanship, her first time in the ring, at all. Her wether laid down, and rolled over onto his side. And no matter what she did, he wouldn't get up. People were going around her, but she didn't drop the smile off of her face, and eyes off the judge. He was an angel at home, but he panicked in the ring and dropped. someone finally helped her, and got him up and he was fine the rest of his time being the ring in showmanship, weight class, and the sale. It was crazy. Just make sure if it does happen to keep confident and not to get upset. I hope you can get him straightened up, but just stay positive, and maybe he will change at the show, for the better.


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## Used2bmimi

At my son's first show his wether was awful. This goat that led fine at home freaked out, threw himself to the ground, reared up, balked and was a real stinker. But my son just kept up business, made sure the goat didn't hurt himself and stayed calm. He answered the judges questions and did the best he could. He ended up Grand champion Showman. Tell your daughter that no matter how her animal behaves in the ring, her work and her poise will show. Keep trying of course but coach your daughter not to get upset and focus on doing the best she can with what the goat will give her that day. 

That said, this year we are trying a method that is working well. We are using the show chains but with a lead attached that allows the children to hook a thumb in their belt loop or on the waist of their pants so that their hand doesn't move. Then they just stand still (the lead should be only long enough that the goat can stand comfortably next to the child with it's head relaxed but up) until the goat quits fighting and stands nicely. Because the child's hand is still (thumb hooked in belt loop) the goat corrects itself and the child is not tempted to give in or to pull against the goat. Once they can stand nicely the child can try taking a step or two then stopping and standing again. Next time three steps and so on until they are walking well. It is important to brace that leading hand because it does not allow the goat to get the leverage to lower it's head and choke itself or lay down. And it doesn't allow the child to pull against the goat incorrectly either. When the goats are walking nicely, and the children have learned how important their leading hand is, we transition to a shorter leash and then to just the collar. 

Good luck to her! Hopefully all her hard work will pay off.


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## ProvidenceHill

*Update*

The fair was last week and DD won Champion and Reserve Champion with her market wethers! They were as good as gold the whole weekend at the show. She and her brother led them all over the place and had no trouble with either one on the show collar.

I will say the 2 weeks before the show we started the thumb-in-the-gut method as soon as her wether started to go down and he learned pretty quickly that it didn't feel so good. We also shortened the practice time and only practiced when it wasn't so hot out. As soon as she had 1 successful lap around the driveway the practice was done so she could end on a good note.

Thanks so much for all of your advice! DD's so fired up after her first market goat experience that she's already making plans for next year.


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