# Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinions ?



## FrankSandy (Sep 14, 2011)

Maybe you're raising the wrong breed! A 2 year study by PHD Richard Browning at Tennessee State University drew some interesting conclusions. The study focused on reproductive rates and fitness on 3 breeds of meat goat does in the humid, subtropical, pasture conditions of the SE United States. 168 Boer, Kiko, & Spanish does were managed together on pasture at 6 does per acre. Does were wormed when they showed signs of weakness or diarrhea and at kidding.

Boer does threw a live kid 81% of the time.
Kiko does threw a live kid 95% of the time.

Boer does weaned a live kid 69% of the time.
Kiko does weaned a live kid 91% of the time.

Boer does averaged 1.03 kids per birthing.
Kiko does averaged 1.54 kids per birthing.

Boer litters averaged 40 pounds at weaning
Kiko litters averaged 62 pounds at weaning

Boer does experiencing lameness per year 78%
Kiko does experiencing lameness per year 40%

Boer does wormed after showing signs off illness 43%
Kiko does wormed after showing signs of illness 10%

Boer does annual survival rate was 78%
Kiko does annual survival rate was 99%

What does all this mean?

Start the year with 100 Boer does, end the year with 78
Start the year with 100 Kiko does, end the year with 99

100 Boer does had 103 kids & weaned 71 of them
100 Kiko does had 154 kids & weaned 140 of them

To put it another way;

Start the year with 100 Boer goats, end it with 149 Boer goats
Start the year with 100 Kiko goats, end it with 239 Kiko goats

The Kiko farmer has 90 more goats than the Boer farmer!
Wonder who will make the most money?


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Very interesting study. I'd be interested in the growth weight results per kid per breed as well as slaughter weights and meat to bone ratio. (IE: who had the most meat per carcass. ) If the Kikos produced more kids but they weighed in significantly less and produced half the amount of meat then profit margin for the Kiko breeder would not be all that much more than the Boer breeder.

I didn't see myotonics in this study? I'm a bit biased but I don't know why more people don't use myos in their meat production herds. They give a higher meat to bone ratio, they eat less and produce more meat. Easy on fences. Great mothers, easy kidders, They frequently produce triplets and quads which are raised without assistance. They have a high worm resistance and since they are a landrace breed, they adjust to the different U.S climates fairly easily. Just my opinion...but I love the myos.  I've noticed that after kidding the Kiko does tend to really lose condition... a LOT. I don't like to see a breed in meat production that you need to pump full of feed constantly just to get keep them conditioned. Boers I haven't noticed this with...but they are big and cost a lot more to feed to end up with the same or close to the same end result in a package as a myo.


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## Maggie (Nov 5, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

I have no idea about kikos, but with those statistics they sure must have picked some horrible boer genetics!!


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## peggy (Aug 11, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Interesting study......


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Kikos have been known to be hardier over all against the boer breed.


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

The boer breed is just a weak link in general (not trying to spite anybody, my honest opinion, and a lot of boer breeders opinions). You have to keep them on a tight worming schedule, or be prepared to lose them. In my opinion the boer's hardiness was bred out of them a long time ago when we started changing their thick bodies to a more streamline appearance. Go back to Kaptein or Top Gun 2 and now look at the new 'thing'. In 1992 when the first 400 boer goats were brought in, I bet they didn't have nearly as much worm issues as they do now. I know worm issues are brought on by other things, but still. I'm not expert and definitley don't claim to be. Just my two cents.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

What happened to the Spanish does? That was the first thing that lept out at me. Were the Kikos crossed with Spanish does? This test was supposedly in humid SE USA. Would the results change in East Texas and Okalahoma? 40 lbs a litter at weaning? I'm calling BS. When did they wean these things? The Kikos I see on Craigslist are not too impressive and they are asking high dollar for them. Even crosses. They don't look like they would cut up as good as a Boer to me. I do appreciate an animal with good feet and parasite resistance though. I'm betting there are some comercial goat producers in Texas etc. that would roll thier eyes over this. It would be nice to see pictures of these test animals.


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## GoatGirlMO (Aug 13, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

I think there is something to it. The Boers have been babied along so much in the past several years that they (speaking VERY generally) just don't seem to be as hardy as they used to be. I live in MO, and we have cold rainy winters and hot humid summers. It's tough on goats, but not tough enough that they should just "randomly" drop dead. That's what happened in a lot of herds nearby. We've lost a couple of our own this year... fine one day, next day, looking a bit crummy, so we jump in with both feet and start pumping all sorts of goodies down them. They were dead within a couple of hours. They were both show does. Our commercial, high percentage, and dairy does have never had an issue.
I have one Kiko/Boer cross doe. She came to me a few hours after kidding, hemorrhaging HORRIBLY, horribly anemic, very wormy, emaciated. She had been removed from her babies and hauled in the back of a pickup, in the drizzle, for an hour and a half. She is standing in my field today, looking like a million bucks and we are anxiously awaiting babies. She's just TOUGH.

So our new plan is to stop buying papers... papers are nice, but it's nicer when we don't have to rush out and deworm everything every second, and it's REALLY nice when they don't die. We ask lots of questions about the deworming practices, and then make our decision.

Our plan is definitely LONG term, but we are doing our best to make our herd parasite resistant first, then work on our other goals. We picked Boers for a reason-- we appreciate their overall muscle and dimension. So we are just working our way up from scratch.


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## FrankSandy (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Hi All,
Want to Thank You all for reading and replying to my Post. Really appreciate your opinions and comments. 
Have a question was their a autopsy done on any of the goats who just got sick and dropped dead? I am on a fact finding mission as I am new to Meat goats. Just bought two Boer Goat Kids, They are aprox. 3 months old look real nice not papered. From a goat auction here in Virginia, for $25 dollars each. As soon as they came home I gave them a shot of Ivormectin. ect. Really nice Boer's were going for $125 that was a pregnant Doe, A few heavy Bucks went for $140 range.And the only reason they went that high was due to a Goat Meat buyer who was looking to make a fast Buck.
But the Kiko's were at $400+ Well I had not been to a goat Auction for many months. The last time I went the Boer were like 3 month old Kids were $70+ and Adults were $150 to $450 papered or not. I am planning on increasing my herd to 50+ over the next year. And I am weighing the odds as to what breed to go with.
And this may sound really Dumb but how do you tell a Kiko who is not papered?
They are so much like other Breeds crossed??
All my prior expertise has been with Dairy Goats only. :whatgoat: onder:


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

We have one kiko doe and she has been an easy keeper, easy kidding, healthy kids who grew fast. BUT....she seems to be just as parasite resistant as the others we have, meaning...she gets them just as they do... Otherwise I do like Kikos


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## GoatGirlMO (Aug 13, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Yes, we do necropsies on our goats who die of an unknown cause.

The first came back as having an acute case of anemia due to H. contortus.

This doe was a big framed doe, who weighed 204 at the university just before the necropsy (4-5 hours after death), was 2 months pregnant and out of show lines.

The food animal clinician on the case was better able to explain it, but basically, these big does have a harder time dealing with acute anemia due to a H. contortus bloom than an already-thin or smaller doe.

Our other doe had a similar case report, it was more "inconclusive" but had all the same information as the previous does.

We have Dorper sheep who we do not deworm. The are fat and happy and run on the same fields as the goats. Some goats just have more of an issue than others.

I believe that there is some truth to the Kikos being hardier than the Boers, but I also KNOW that some lines of Boers are hardier than your average Kiko. Our goal is to get our herd parasite-resistant to the point of hardly needing to be wormed at all. We are weeding out the animals who need dewormer most often, and keeping doelings from the ones who are our "never need" does.

I also think that sale prices reflect fads... a few years ago, anything white with a red head running through a sale would have brought similar prices. Now Boers are a dime a dozen and Kikos are again rising in popularity. In a few years, it will be the next big "new" breed.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

I might be speaking out of turn but i have had my boers for 4 years now and never had one drop dead for anything.When they start kidding i expect them to raise one good healthy baby the first kidding after that i expect 2,they never let me down.I did lose a tangled baby this year but that was only one out of 5 does,i think the odds would be better than starting with 100 and ending with 149.I beleive they must have been overstocked at 6 head per acre,and the kikos would survive better but i bet none of the goats looked good when they weaned.

Im with Tenacross did the boers eat the spainish does or something?

I think some of this is manipulated,or the goats were purposely neglected to make the outcome more on the kikos side.If you tend to any goat properly she will produce as much as other breeds,some will just take more input to do so.

Now,the kikos will do it with less input and fewer problems but not so much that i am selling my boers to go buy kikos.Although i do have a nice boer/kiko buck.


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## jodief100 (Jan 15, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

I have read the entire Tennessee study. I have also spoken with Dr Browning at length about the details of the study. There is a lot more than what was posted here. The Spanish were in the study, the resulst are published. The OP just did not post them here. He also studied crosess between all three breeds. These goats were raised in a minimal interference, forage based system. If you choose a different managment style, you will see different results.

I will try to find the link to the study. There is a lot of good information. You cannot just look at these numbers and say- that has to be wrong becasue I get better results. There are a lot of variables in raising goats.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Well, Frank and Sanday, you are getting a lot of Boer breeders reading this. My husband and I have read all about the Kiko meat goats being the hardy stock and I am sure that the Kiko and the Spanish Boers are more hardy. We did consider a Kiko mix. We are trying to breed a hardy healthy stock for the purpose of land management and for meat, BUT significantly important is to have a manageable animal on this property. I will be truthfully opinionated: I think Kikos are ugly and Boers are not. I think Boers have a calmer dispostion and Kikos from what we have read and been told do not. I get to look at our goats out our window every morning. YES, I am partial to a handsome looking easy going light hearted type animal that loves human attention. It may sound silly, but we do not want kikos for that reason alone. It is only silly if you are looking for a big land to put wild animals on to be hardy with little human contact. Our wethers that we butcher have hefty builds and give us plenty of meat. We are partial to the Boer to be the best 'all around type goat.' Mixing Kikos, Spanish Boers and African Boers can be more suitable for the large Ranch areas where goats can roam and forage more freely in a wild way.


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## RollingHills (Sep 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Our Kiko buck Ace is very calm and people-friendly and I've never had a problem with him being rambunctious or trying to get out. He's really easy to work on and around, too. We chose him because we wanted something that crosses well with other breeds and is super hardy and Ace is great on both counts. I don't find Boers ugly - far from it, in fact - but IMHO it's all a matter of personal taste and what works for you. I find Kikos very handsome and our choice seems to be working out for us.


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## FrankSandy (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Thank You RollingHills for posting, Real nice looking Buck!!
Ok I have another question,, LOL 
Please stay with me, I have seen many Kiko's. They do not look the same, as do most Boer's or Alpine or what have you they all seem to look different, if not papered how do you tell the Kiko Breed? I have seen so called Kiko's with horns that go out to the side like a longhorn Cow<< LOL or any color and hmmm they are papered?? The reason I am asking all the questions is, I go to goat auctions, I am told this or that about a goat, I want to be able to recognize a Kiko or the blood line?? I hope to anyway. Hate to say this, But if you have gone to a goat Auction you know what I mean they will tell you anything to get your money! So you may have guessed it I am on a limited budget, I have only so much to spend on my latest try to make money with my farm, " Meat Goats".


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## RollingHills (Sep 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Ace had papers but I guess the guy we bought him from didn't re-register him under his name in a timely fashion, so . . . has papers but isn't registered? Is registered under his breeder's name? I'm not sure I'd buy one at an auction. I wouldn't trust myself.

All the bucks' horns do a half-curl and grow out to the side like that - Ace's are doing a good job; they did a lot of growing this past summer, as did he. He turned 3 this year.

The American Kiko Goat Association has a lot of information on their website, and lots of gorgeous pictures. I went there when I was doing research on meat breeds.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*



RollingHills said:


> Our Kiko buck Ace is very calm and people-friendly and I've never had a problem with him being rambunctious or trying to get out. He's really easy to work on and around, too. We chose him because we wanted something that crosses well with other breeds and is super hardy and Ace is great on both counts. I don't find Boers ugly - far from it, in fact - but IMHO it's all a matter of personal taste and what works for you. I find Kikos very handsome and our choice seems to be working out for us.


Your Kiko buck looks very happy and content and easy to handle and he is NOT ugly. Smiles to you.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

He even looks like he is smiling.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Our doe who is kiko and either dairy cross or possibly kiko/boer. The doe we bought with her was a kiko/boer, and favored the boer more than kiko in appearance.
I ? her face and ears, hehe.

I took this about a month ago, she's with her buddy, Madison who is a boer/nubian.









As I've stated she seems no more parasite resistant than the others have been. I haven't done feet in quite a while as they just haven't needed trimmed. I checked yesterday and her feet still looked fine, while the others are starting to get to the point where they need to be trimmed soon. 
The only problem I have with her at all is she is herd queen and can be a meannie to the others. But she is very very affectionate with us. I can't be around her without her coming over and rubbing all over me, I adore her, I just wish she wasn't a meannie butt to the other goats!


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## FrankSandy (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Hi HoosierShadow,
Thank You so much for your post with picture. Your goats are the picture of health. What are you feeding them? Has she given you kids? How old is she?
Regards, Sandy


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## RollingHills (Sep 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*



packhillboers said:


> [quote="
> Your Kiko buck looks very happy and content and easy to handle and he is NOT ugly. Smiles to you.


Thank you packhillboers! We like to think he's happy here - he sure has grown since we got him.


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## RollingHills (Sep 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

HosierShadow - beautiful girls! I love the feet on your Kiko cross - I find they throw that trait and it's such a good one. We trim Ace hardly at all; we got a buckling from him and our Spanish doe this spring and his feet and legs were awesome (hers are not bad, but they're not the best). We just acquired what we were told is an Arapawa (he sure looks like one) and he's got the same feet. Time will tell how often we trim him and if he throws the same trait.

We have a Boer/Nubian doe and we like her a lot; she looks like your Madison only with a solid head and speckled ears.

Our Spanish doe is the meanie butt!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Thanks so much, she's my brat, and my 4yo daughter is crazy about her 
She has kidded 2x, last summer, and then in late Feb. I didn't want her having the back to back pregnancies, she only had a month off. But she's bouncing back so well.
I just feed a 15% medicated sweet feed with a little beet pulp mixed in from time to time, she's fed grain 1x a day. I typically just give hay after evening feed unless it's raining then I give hay in the morning and evening. 
Right now the only ones I feed 2x a day for grain is our new buck, our April doe and our pregnant doe. I'm actually getting ready to change grains though, they've made some changes to the last batch and it's what my kids refer to as 'more crumbs than bites.' 
We have been buying ours from a feed mill.

RollingHills - love your buck and I meant to add that in my last post! My doe's feet look the same as in the picture above, and it's a month later.


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## jodief100 (Jan 15, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Here is a link to the very short version of the research.

http://www.theikga.org/Brazil-GoatFitness.pdf

I have read the entire report and this is a small portion of it.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Candice, 
Your white Kiko mix is beautiful and your other mix is too. I was also noticing the feet. They are good and solid looking.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

They both look mostly Boer.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Candice,is that Dudes dam?
If so he takes after the boer side with his feet!His feet need looked at twice a month,but have been trimming usually once a month to keep him straight.

The horns are what i like about the Kikos appearance,some of them are awesome to look at.Boers are as well with the big spirals.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

How is Dude doing other than the feet? I think abot him a lot and hope he is doing fine? We sold all but 2 of our kids from this year, so hard seeing them all go.
We sold Dude's dam to a wonderful couple along with his sister at the end of 4-H showing season. We only planned to keep 5 females adults or kids, and the kids had to make the decision. I wish I had gotten new pictures of her, she looked wonderful, put on a lot of weight. I was just thinking about her this morning, and my oldest daughter was talking about her this evening. I wish we could keep them all!
Here's a pic of her when she was pregnant with Dude and his sister:









I never really had problems with her feet except when we'd get a long wet spell such as in the spring or fall. She had one foot that as more prone than any to hoof scald, but some LA200 on it and she was fine the next day. Didn't have any issues through the dry months, and she was on a regular trimming schedule like the others, typically every 4-6 weeks.
She also favored the Boer as far as appearance, but she came from the same farm as Snow White.

Here's Snow White's buckling and Dude on May 21st, I'd have to look but I know Snow White's buckling weighed 60lbs at 3mo, and I think Dude was 50-55lbs? Snow White's Doeling was about 45-50lbs, and Dude's sister was a few lbs. lighter than Snow White's doeling. But by around July or so all the young girls weighed about the same and were all fed the same, in fact Dude's sister picked up the most weight.









One month old, the red twins <boer/nubian>, Sweethearts <far right>, and Snow Whites <middle>. Red twins were born about 5am on 2/23, Sweethearts twins about 9pm on 2/23, and Snow White's kids 4pm 2/24. 
Snow White's kids grew very quickly, while the others grew at the same pace, although Sweetheart's kids had more size to them than the red twins who favored their mother <who has more of a nubian/slender build>.









Here's another pic of Snow White <recent pic dummy me put a 2010 mark on it LOL> Does she really have the boer look to her? I have been contemplating if she might be a kiko/boer instead of what I was told <kiko/dairy>.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Dude is doing fine,but i just found out today he does have a bit of a wormload,i think all the rain has improved conditions for them,other than that he is doing fine,will be worming and changing pastures this weekend.He has got to be the most laid back goat i have seen,although he has been busy yesterday and today,3 of my does came into heat.

Snow white does have the boer face but the horns and ears look to be kiko.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Sorry to hear about the wormload, but it happens. We had that happen back in March, I wormed, then did a fecal and found out the wormer didn't work, so we had to use something different, it was frustrating. I last did a fecal in early July and the vet wasn't concerned at all, said we could worm if we wanted or wait a while, but we did it right away. I think i am going to have a fecal run every 3 months this time of year just to be certain. Parasites frustrate me.

I loved Dudes personality, he was such a sweet baby. I remember Dude and Snow White's buckling were the unseperable duo, they would gang up on the doelings and attack, knocking them off of the logs, or wood pile. They were so much fun to be around. They'd act all big and bad, then come over and want to climb in your lap and be loved on.

I am so happy he is doing well, and sounds like he is definitely busy! I can't wait to hear about his kids! 

I agree Snow White definitely doesn't have boer ears or horns. I do love her ears though. But the ears I'd love for all the babies to inherit is Trouble's ears! She's our younger red doe, and OMG I just love her long, wide ears - she's the one that had the red twins and they got her ears. PRAYING for more ears like that next time around ???


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## RollingHills (Sep 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

HosierShadow - Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

I found this on accident surfing the internets. It doesn't 
knock Kikos per se, but it does paint a more optimistic
picture of the Boer breed.

http://www.critterridge.net/hardyboergoats.html


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## primal woman (Sep 17, 2011)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*



peggy said:


> Interesting study......


Peggy, can you share with us, either here or where ever appropriate, the background of your avatar? Those are some very uniquely colored babies. A real picture? Real goats of yours? Very intriguing.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

I love Peggy's avatar ? always have 

I trimmed feet last night. The 5mo boer doe was the worst, ick, I wish I hadn't waited so long to do her! They were a mess, but not in a hoof rot kind of way, just long/uneven.
Her mom who has been our hard keeper Boer doe had decent feet, nothing I'd complain about.
Our younger red nubian/boer doe wasn't too bad, but her front toes got long and dirt was getting trapped in the tips that was stinky! But it wasn't anything to get upset over.
Her older sister, who is 6 days from her due date and usually one of the worst goats for feet actually had the 2nd best, didn't have to do much to her at all.
Her daughter who is mostly boer had the 2nd worst feet compared to the 5mo doe. 
And of course our Kiko doe had the best feet of them all, I honestly didn't even have to trim if I didn't want to. She had maybe one foot that was a little longer than the rest.

Of course I won't go that long without trimming again, especially now that we're in a wetter season. I noticed the growth happened a lot more the past week and a half, as I have been picking up feet and checking.


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## Goober (Aug 21, 2009)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*

Just a little side note on hooves, with horses, hooves that grow a ton are considered good, in goats, it's bad. Different uses/needs, different genetic desires. But, coming from a horse background, I have a hard time considering feet that grow quick undesirable.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: Wanted to share this info on Kikos, Do you agree? Opinio*



Goober said:


> Just a little side note on hooves, with horses, hooves that grow a ton are considered good, in goats, it's bad. Different uses/needs, different genetic desires. But, coming from a horse background, I have a hard time considering feet that grow quick undesirable.


Very trye. I'd think a goat that has problematic feet <chips, etc> growing out fast is good if you are keeping up with them. But an otherwise healthy goat it can be frustrating having to trim every few weeks. I don't know a horse owner with a 'healthy' hooved horse that has to trim every 3 weeks. When I worked with horses the blacksmith never came that often unless we had a problem.


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