# I got a BUCK!-Tragedy and a littlesomething called Happiness



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

I GOT A BUCK!!!!!!!!!! Well, he is reserved untill he is weaned. Lets start from scratch. Yesterday we went to the OVDGA Show. The one judge was a jerk!!!!!!!! I took my little alpine doe in there. Our friends had two does in there too. So three does in the class. The judge examined each goat, and told me I was first!! We go to the line up. At the last second, he says he changed his mind and put me in second!!!  He also made weird faces, hardly explaned the places, was rude and sarcastic, said my goat had poo crusted all over her butt, which she didn't, in showmanship[poultry showmanship is my thing  ], and took a VERY long time. The other judge was cool though. I got last in showmanship, and did so-so in the other classes. The show was long!! The entries were supposed to close at 7:45 AM. I woke up at 4:45, left at 6, and got there at 8:30.  It was a much longer drive than we expected. The judges were late, so they continued to let people in till like 9. So anyway, there was a lot of goats there. Like 100 or more, which is huge to me. Well they had a buck raffle. Your choice between two outstanding nubian bucklings. We wanted the SPLASHED one!! We put $20 worth of tickets in there, and because no one wants another buck, we had most of the tickets in there. Well we lost it.  But, we really didn't have a place to put one anyway. When we were there, our friends with alpines, had a ADORABLE SUPER NICE SPOTTED alpine buckling there. They were asking $300 from us. We were thinking about it, but that is alot of money. We didn't get home till 8:30 that night. Well, this morning, we sat down and talked goats. We decided, after a while, we wanted that buck. We have a nice place for one. It is away from our does. It has a steep hill to climb on, some pasture, some trees, lots of enrichment. We are going to fence it in and such. We truely need an alpine buck more than a nubian one. We only have one purebred nubian doe, and she has CAE. But we have 3 Alpine does, Breeze [the expensive one that is from the same place as this buck], Hannah [Our small and stocky doe, but she is very wide and deep, but she has mastitis], and Heidi [Hannah's wonderul 6 week old kid, she is the coolest.] So our new buck boasts bloodlines of Willow Run Jasmine, the udder queen, and Irish Rose. Here he is:


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## goatiegurl*Oh (Nov 11, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

Cute.  Is he from Strawberry Fields? Isn't your doe Breeze a daughter or grandaughter of Irish Rose? She's a really nice doe.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

He isn't from SF, but from a breeder around here that has a lot of their lines, their website is http://www.vonshap.com . My doe Breeze was going to be bred to a buck that was the son of Irish Rose, but she didn't take and they sold that buck.   So now I will have my own buck. YAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! :leap: :clap: ray: arty: :sun: :dance: :balloons: :stars: :wahoo: :applaud: :thumbup: :slapfloor: :bday:   :horse:  :greengrin: :wink: :thumb:


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## goatiegurl*Oh (Nov 11, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

Was it Ireland they sold? I was thinking about seeing if I could breed my doeling to him.. Oh well then I guess. I had a Nubian buck in mind to though,and there are some more breeders around.

Vonshap has some pretty goats


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

having your own buck will help you with those breeding issues.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

I think they sold Ireland. :? Yes, Stacy, that will help. We have drove with does in our van to get bred countless times. He is so cute too!! I love the markings. His granddam is Jasmine who was the Champion Milking Yearling Alpine in the 2006 Nationals. She is very nice. Not sure what to do about the Nubians though. I might just breed our doe Daisy to him.


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

Congratulations. He is sure cute.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

make more nupines


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

Yes, I probably will!! I can't wait to get him. But I got like another 4-6 weeks to wait.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

I just have to save up the cash to put a deposit on him, but my chicken buisness has been great lately.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

congrats on the buck. he sure is flashy. I just saw a post on alpine talk that ireland is for sale.
beth


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

Congrats!!! He sure is a pretty guy


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!! Question!!!!!!!!!!*

We are getting him next week, if his pen is ready. He will live with our wether. What questions should I ask the seller??
Ashlyn


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

We are getting him next week, if our pen is done. Him and our wether will have about a 50' by 50' pen and an 8'x8' barn. Should work well. Questions-What kind of questions should I ask the seller and what papers and such should I recieve from her? And he was born late April, when will he be ready to breed our 3 does? October?? Any name ideas??


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

well he might not be ready in October. Some bucks mature faster then others but dairy bucks tend to need more time.

Well your parents should be involved in the transaction and I am sure they will be asking questions.

But other then finding out when he was last wormed adn if he was vaccinated I personaly don't provide much else to the buyers as there isnt much else to tell.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

Well, you'll want to get the registration (if he's registered?) of course. And any pedigree information you may need. That's really all I can think to ask for. Do they have pics of his sire/dam, you may want those, and any milking records she has would be nice.

He's very flashy! Congrats, this is going to make your breeding chores alot easier. But, my Cashmere buckling wasn't ready to breed my does the first year (he was born in May). I had to lease a buck (I subsequently bought him too). My Nigerian buckling was ready from "day one" I think, we made him wait till day 365 though... :ROFL: Sounds like you have the perfect place for him too. Good luck!


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!!!!!!!!!!*

Ok, I will try to feed him well to get him ready, he will be a big boy. The last time I saw him was when he was 2 weeks old, and he was as big as mine when they were a month old. Our friends had to feed thier buck 3 pounds a day to get him ready. If he isn't ready, that will mean at least $175 in breeding fees for our 3 does, which is a lot. He is registered. I can't wait!! His barn is all done. And painted red. It has a large raised wood sleeping area, and I just have to build the 2 head key hole hay feeder with my jigsaw. No, my mom probably won't be asking very many questions, except how to make a good buck and will he throw splashed kids. :greengrin: And my dad, who won't be there, would ask: Will he make us any money and would he throw meaty kids?? HEHE. Yeah right. I will see if she has milk records, she should. And what does make a well mannered buck? I have seen a very mean one, and one that is a complete gentleman.
Ashlyn


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Yes you read that right. Ok, we were supposed to get him June 26. We called June 25 to arrange the time, etc. Well, she said that he escaped out his pen when he was being weaned and got back with his momma and so he isn't weaned yet, in doing so he injured his leg [or she thinks ''snake bite''] and is limping, and she just gave him a shot, so she wants to see how he acts. What!! I am not so mad at her because he is hurt, but why in the heck didn't she tell us!!! We paid a $150 [half] for his deposit, so althought that means we don't own him, I feel she is obligated to tell us. And I am sort of mad she didn't have an excape proof area, and the vaccine????? We could have done that at his proper age, 3 months. We aren't idiots. So we just called Wednesday, and she says he is still limping, but is weaned, and that we can check him out Sunday. Arggggg. You know, I have been waiting 2 months now. I only saw a baby pic of him and I got to see him at the show May 10, but I never even got to tough him. I want my bucky. BUT, if he doesn't heal, we aren't taking him. If she makes him super discounted I might. Also, he has been limping for like 2 weeks now, should she have called a VET?! Or is that our choice? Who would pay? I personally want him looked at. What do we do legally? But I know one thing, we are NOT paying $300 for a lame buckling. Would you? I really want him, as his color and bloodline are stellar, and a good buck would be hard to fing around here at this time. Should I ask her to send pics via email? I am extremely frustrated and confused. I need help ASAP. Do I have any right to be mad at them?
Ashlyn


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

How far away is this breeder? Close enough that you could have "visited" your buck at least a couple times before you brought him home?

I only ask because I encourage anyone who reserves a kid from me that they are welcome anytime to see and bond with their kids. Even though you have a deposit on him, he is still housed with the breeder, personally, if ANYTHING happens to any kid here that is reserved it is MY responsibility to get them the care they need and the "owner" is contacted as to the "what's, and why's" of the situation. The kids leave when healthy and weaned and only then...and the "owner" is given the option of getting their deposit back if they change their mind. I've not been dishonest ever with a buyer and never will be...it's just not good ethics!


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## hornless (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Well, to be fair...everyone is going to have their goats get out at some point, I know you have more than once. As to his injury, I think she did the right thing, he is still in her possession and you have not paid in full yet either.

I would pay $300 for a lame buckling, sure, if he can still breed. Heck, if the buck has really good lines, I would pay $700+ for him. He is still a valuable asset to a herd even lame, he is the one improving your does.

Maybe a small price reduction would be in order if he does turn out to be permanently lame. Or she could sell him to someone else and refund you your money.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

i just went to the strawberry fields website, i think they have completly sold out of goats, there are not goats on the page anymore. 
things to ask, has he had his shots? been wormed? when were his feet done last? When was his mom last vaccinated? What is her show and milk record? How about his sires dam and sister?
beth


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

They live way in the middle of nowhere, about 45 minutes to an hour away, not far, but they never offered to have us come out. I want my buck. I wanted him 3 months ago. I am getting sick of waiting, unfortunatly I haven't had a chance to talk to them in a while. $300 is for a healthy buck, in my opinion, a lame buck isn't a healthy buck. Yes he has great bloodlines, but his dam placed last in her class at the show [out of 3 I think] so :shrug: . I am bummed. How about the vet thing??


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

criticizing how a breeder in your opinion handled something is not respectful and I think that we need to just move on from that.

As to paying for him --- really Ashlyn it is up to you. We cant make that decision for you. Talk to your parents and to the breeder (I am sure you can call her) and decide how damaging his limp is.

As a breeder myself I have had goats get sick and be near deaths door but my first reaction is NOT to call the new owner to be but to take care of the animal and when I get a chance then tell the new owner. It isn't that I am hiding it I am just busy and I have to do what needs to be done to remedy the situation and they have no say in how i treat the animal or not as it is still mine until the day they pick it up. if the animal becomes unsatisfactory to the new owner because of illness or injury I will refund their money or place the deposit on another animal of their choice. YOu need ot find out if this will be the case for you or not before jumping to conclusions

His limp may just be minor or major. We dont' know that and can not give you advise either way on wether or not the buck will be worth it.

I know you want advise but it has to be your decision. Take a step back and dont get so worked up about it. Things happen and it is no ones fault just the way things go.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

It would not be right to get mad at her - obviously she would not want the buck to get hurt as that would cost her $300. I have a doe that is injured and will not be shown. She is still worth it because she is very nice and has gorgeous kids. I personally would pay a whole lot more for a buck then $300. And I have in the past. Which is funny since all of the bucks I have at the moment have been $400 or less. Because I am friends with the breeder and get a multiple purchase discount as well.

But his price all depends on his genetics and his dam of course, so he may or may not be worth $300. But like Stacey said, it is all up to you.

Good Luck.

Chelsey


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

I agree with the others and as a breeder, it is my responsibility to ensure that healthy goats leave my little farm...I had a similar situation..coccidia was the culprit but only 1 kid had the " diagnosis"..I had the vet do the "proper" treatment for the kid in question and she left it up to me to do the kids that weren't showing the signs..I let the prospective owners know what was up and it turned out that "honesty is the best policy" when it comes to reserved kids.. so wether it be that the breeder was just too busy to let you know the situation and handled it to her ability you really shouldn't FAULT her in doing what she knew best. And since she was just 45 minutes away..it's really not too far to go and see what you have half paid for already......you know what you want and chose to wait til he was ready...IMO.... A new owner that is persistant in wanting to spend the time to be with their chosen kid(s) IS someone I would WANT to have my kids..regardless of an invite or not.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Geezz!! I didn't know I would be attacked. I am sorry, but IMO, I have every right to know what his health is. In case you peoples don't realize it, I am not an adult yet, and am not old enough to drive [but no, I am not 7] so it is my parents decision on when we get to go to see him, not mine. Muddy Creek, we are not rich like you so we can't go get SF Ireland for $1000. I plan on bringing my baby home tomorrow. If it is that bad of an injury, then I hope they will be good breeders and will give us a discount. And I hate the ''too busy'' excuse. It is rare that someone is too busy too make a 2 minute call to someone. I will report back tomorrow when I get MY BUCK. Yes, MY BUCK. :greengrin: :leap:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

I am really sorry if you feel that you've been "attacked" I'm sure that wasn't the manner in which we intended to reply :grouphug: 
I'm glad you are bringing your boy home and as a breeder I would think that she would offer a small discount, but if she's put money into him with a vet bill I myself wouldn't offer a discount because I would be losing and not profiting.....so please try not to feel as though you were being attacked, most of us are breeders and have dealt with a similar situation ( I don't know if you've had chance to breed and sell yet) when you do establish yourself as a breeder this will be a learning experience for you. :grouphug:


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

:hug: Ashlyn,I'm sure they didn't mean to offend you in any way.They were just giving you their oppinions and trying to help you. I understand as I can't drive yet either.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

All better :grouphug: . Sorry I just get upset and then go crazyand attack everyone. I should calm down before I post. I am taking my bucky home tomorrow. I have only sold one goat so far, Stella's little mix of 5 breeds doeling. Her name was Shindig and she looked like a tiny white head boer and was very cute and sweet. I miss her. The people came for a donkey and went home with a goat instead. She will have an old lonely goat loving horse and 6 children for companions. The people were crazy about her when they left. When the woman started crying when she told us about losing her old nubian doe, we knew Shindig was going to a great forever home. I got $40 for her, which is more than she was worth. She wouldn't be a good milk producer and is FAR too dairy for a meat producer. She was the most dairy kid I have ever seen. That was last April. Sorry, lost in a trance.  :greengrin: 
Ashlyn


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Hopefully your little guy settles in and you can further inspect his injury, as with most bucks regardless of any type of pain or injury when it comes to breeding THATS the ONLY thing on their mind :ROFL: So you shouldn't have any issues with him doing the deed when needed.


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

I agrre with Liz that he will do his job if he's not seriously injured.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

I would never want anyone to feel attacked, that is the hard thing with the internet. You cant tell what the person's "tone" is.

And believe me, we are far from rich. I just worked really hard to save up the money for my goats, and with having to sell the horse I have had since I was a baby and loved dearly, due to the fact that hay was so expensive I got the money for him which I have saved and added to to afford my goats. Goats are my hobby, I don't have a car, I don't buy designer clothes - I buy goats! LOL. Heck I don't even have my license yet and I am 16. Too busy with goats and school I guess.

Hopefully he will recover and be a nice healthy. Make sure to post pictures once you get him!!

Chelsey


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Ashlyn I know you feel like we all don't agree with you but the situation is that I don't want you blaming a breeder for something out of her control. In your opinion making a call shouldn't be such a hard thing BUT try to be a mom, wife and a goat herder at the same time. Sorry but a phone call easily gets lost in all the other more important things in life. I am sure she was REALLY hoping that he would just heal up and all would be fine when you came on your scheduled day to pick him up. I know how it is as a breeder and soon you will too.

At your age I could remember dates and TIMES for things I did 2-4 weeks previous but now I can't even remember what I did yesterday! Life has a way of making it hard to remember things like bringing out scissors to cut the hay string (even though I thought of it 10 times already! :doh: ). I meant to call this one lady about picking up her goats and setting a date to do so for days but I still havent' done it! :GAAH: It happends when you have a job and life.

Believe me I want to be your age again! Yes even with all the school work!

This is not an attack on you, just want you to see things as an adult sees them and for you to sit back and relax and try to think about the other person in the situation. That is the mature thing to do.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

School work? Ha. I am homeschooled, very little school work. I meant to make a long post, but it went as a pm to Muddy Creek. :shrug: Well here is some news. We called her on Sunday after church to see what time we could come out and look at him, she said she wants to hold him even LONGER. She also want to take him to a vet. So we asked if we could at least come see him and the other buckling she has for sale in case this doesn't work out. She said she would be gone for a couple hours and would call us when she gets back to give us directions to her house. We waited and waited. 6 hours later, still no call. I don't know if I can blame her, but she doesn't want us to see him. She sounded kind of mad and upset on the phone. Her husband said it looked like a shoulder break, and he may have to be put to sleep or have a big operation. I REALLY want to be there when he goes to the vet, so I can know what is wrong. I am almost in tears from sadness and frustration. I tried to look for other alpine breeders to find another buck since this isn't looking good, and no luck. I really don't know what to do. I don't want to call Laverne because she obviously doesn't want anything to do with us. I understand she is frustrated, but..........WE ARE TOO!!!!!!!!!!!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

been in that situation before too. Honestly give her space. There are other bucks out there you just need to be patent. She is dealing with this hard I can tell and you butting in to be a part of everything makes it harder on her. She obviously loves her goats. There is noting worse then having to tell someone or have a buyer know that one of your goats is not sound. You want so badly for everything to go smoothly and without issues. It is upsetting when this is not the case.

Now as to the vet........you have no business being at the vets unless she invites you. So just hang in there and when the verdict comes in with what is wrong I am sure she will tell you. If it is bad news she may wait a bit for the news to set in so don't expect a phone call right away or even that day. Be patient

Try not to nag as that will only make things worse. I know you see that boy as yours but he technically belongs to her still and you have to leave it in her hands period.

at my place all the kids that aren't picked up yet still belong to me and I have every right to do with them as I see fit till they are picked up. I can choose to change the date and time for the pick up if there is an injury or illness preventing the new owners bringing home a healthy animal. That is my right as a breeder. You will want this right when you are the breeder so give it to her as she deserves.

she didn't choose to have the buckling get out and get hurt, it is just part of life. YOu have had goats get out on you so you know how that is. You can't fault her for that.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Ashlyn, all that Stacey has said is something to think about...and the fact that she does have another buckling on the premise doesn't mean that he is available...he could have been promised to someone else. If the news from the vet isn't good, she is going to need time to absorb it and have her wits about her to call you...if the injury is that bad and he has to be put down...if it was me , you would get your deposit back and I would deal with my losses, in the circumstances I posted previously, the "owner" of the doeling that had coccidia had been here numerous times and her babies were bonded to her....I called her AFTER the vet visit to let her know what was wrong and that I would be keeping the twins for another week, she offered to help with the vet bill and my reply to her was "As long as they are here, they are still mine and it is my responsibility as a breeder to ensure that ONLY healthy kids leave." She was fine with this and knew a bit about the disease so she wanted what was best for her girls....believe me I dreaded making that call to her as I always had healthy kids with no troubles and really prided myself with this and then boom I had to swallow my pride and admit to an illness. I'm sure the breeder of your buck feels the same way...no matter what you do or how you keep your herd there always will be something that pops up and I'm sure she's just sick with heartbreak over this. I do hope the little guy is fine and can be healed but keep in mind that she is doing what she thinks best for him. :hug:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

I am just going to throw my thoughts out. These are my thoughts and if any or all do not agree then that is ok.

Today is the first day, to be honest, that I have read anything in this post and wanted to know what was wrong with the little guy. I started on the last page and was overwhelmed - so I went to the first page to get the "whole story".

1st - a person can not blame a breeder for holding off on wanting to send a kid to a new home. That is the choice of the breeder regardless of when the buyer feels that the time is right.

2nd - I had 3 - YES 3 of my 7 babies die this year. One was one that I purchased, 2 were already bought, PAID IN FULL, and still here to be weened. We found out what happened later - but I had to call and explain it to the purchasers. It took me many days and tears till I could do it - and it was because there was a hole in my fence and I didn't know it. When an accident happens - it is just that - an accident. Just like with children, adults, or animals.

3rd - until a contract is signed, all money is paid, and the animal is in your hands, it is not the buyers decision on what happens with the animal. I state specifically in my contracts that the deposit of half the purchase price is needed to reserve an animal and that it is non refundable unless the said animal dies or is injured. At that time the purchaser can choose to receive the deposit back or put it towards another kid that is not already reserved.

4th - the reason that the breeder probobly does not want to talk to you is that she wants to know exactly what the issue with him is and take appropriate action with the animal. Wether that be euthanasia or medication. (which I hope it is the latter of the 2). But this is HER choice. And honestly, if you got upset with her, as you had with some others on here, she probobly really does not want to speak with you at the moment till she knows EXACTLY what she wants to do with the kid.

If you really want this buckling and he is going to be ok - and you want him - you will need to pay the price that she wants for him - regardless. If she gives you a small discount - great - but if not - she really does not have to.

I am not trying in any way to be mean - but just by reading what you wrote earlier - you really need to take a breath and be happy that she cares as much as she does for this little guy and is doing what is right by him and no one else. I understand that you really want him - but what if you took him home when you originally wanted to and then realized there was a problem - then you would be all upset with her. She needs to do what she feels is best. And I agree, no, unless you are asked, you should not be going to the vet with her unless you are paying for the vet visit.

As to visiting him - I understand that you are young and can not drive - however, you could always email and ask for pictures of him. I personally live a long ways from my customers - not one has ever taken me up on coming to meet their kid prior to purchase or pick up - however, I took pics at least weekly and sent them through email - and come to think of it - I never even talked on the phone or in person with them till I met them to pick up. I have only had one come to the ranch to pick up and all the others I met in town somewhere.

There are ways to be in contact with her and see your buck - and maybe it was just a slip of thought on emailing pictures or maybe she doesn't have the capability.

Alot of breeders (myself being one) are VERY busy and try to do as much as we can - but our first priority is our animals (I feel I can speak for everyone with that statement). I am currently working on my Bachelors in Social Work with a double minor, working full time, I am a full time mom / wife, and run the ranch of 14 goats, 13 sheep, and 3 horses by myself with no help from the family. I am just lucky that I can email and what not from work. Just please remember that we also have other responsibilities and importances in our life that may not seem as important to others, but they are to us. With that - somethings might be overlooked - but it is not on purpose, I promise


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

I'm so sorry your having this trouble, but you are getting good advice here. Let's hope and pray your little guy is going to be OK. :hug:


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Thanks guys. I didn't realize there are basically NO purchaser's rights, just a overload of seller's rights. I feel like I have absoulutly say in what happens. I should offer to pay for at least part of the vet bills, so I have an excuse to come. BTW, before I forget, her other buckling is for sale for $200 [actually it is $250 but we would get him for $200 because she owes us a breeding because our ''bred'' doe we got from her last year wasn't bred.] I am getting really peed off, not neccesarily at her, just because. This sucks. I just feel she isn't taking into consideration howe we feel. I need to tell you about one of our goat friends. If you think Laverne is busy, then this woman must be a superhero. She has about 150-200 goats, 50 dairy cattle, some beef cattle, a job, a life, and the only one to help her is her older dad who takes most of the care of the cattle. It was the middle of her hectic kidding season and we had a very sick little doe. She lives about 45 minutes away and was petsitting for a friend, and she came out to help us with the little doe at about 8 or 9 at night. She is close to a vet with goat health. And she saved our little doe, Heidi. We of course paid her for her work. We rented a nubian buck from her twice and she swaped goats with us once and has helped us with things over the phone many times. That is the kind of goater I like. I am crying right now due to the fact I am clueless. If you haven't noticed, I love my goats and this boy was going to be a wonderful addition to us. I am a strong believer that God does things for certain reasons, and if HE, not Laverne, doesn't want me to have the boy, then I will accept it. Otherwise, I won't. She said a few days ago we could come to the vets, but we haven't heard from her since. I know you all are just trying to help, but I am feeling like I am a little shrew and she is an elephant. That didn't make much sense. [Espescially since she probably weighs less than me :greengrin: ] So what am supposed to do. It seems as though you all are on her side, whatever that means. Oh, and have my goats ever got loose? [chuckles] Yesterday some of my adult does were eating our flowers. What? The gates were closed. Well there was a horse sized hole in our crappy welded rabbit type wire. Don't bug me about that now, that is all my mom would buy. She is really awful on taking short cuts, which always end up in disaster. I , yes ME, hope to buy some better stuff once my poultry business picks up. But yes our goats are out all the time, so I hope to buy a permanent electric wire system [for sheep as it is cheaper] for the pasture which I find out will cost much less that the stuff we have now. It is so flimsy the goats have actually BROKE the wire in many places. But anyway I am really confused about the buck, I may email her for pics. I don't feel very comfortable on the phone. Email is better. So I will be checking this thread once a day to update you. 
Ashlyn


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Ashlyn....I am so sorry if this all seems to be one-sided to you, but I personally haven't been in your position as a buyer...I've never had to "wait" for a goat because my recent purchases were an adult doe and the buck was spur of the moment and ready to go...I do hope you hear from her soon and since the second buckling is available she really should consider you...IF he is what you want..don't settle on him just because. :hug:


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## cjpup (Dec 1, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Just a few thoughts:

I do not think the breeder is at fault but I DO believe that she should have sought professional medical attention after the limp lasted a week even with the vaccine (but thats not because of breeder responsibilty, its just plain animal cruelty to allow a limp to go 2 weeks without fixing or diagnosing the problem). What REALLY REALLY ticks me off is that the little guy may now possibly have a 2 week old shoulder break that was never fixed and he will most likely be lame. Truthfully, if it were my kid, I probably would have given him a CD&T vaccine, especially if their is an open wound from the fence.

I also think that if he had been limping for 2 weeks like this post says, a phone call is DEFFINATLY warranted and even a responsibility of the breeder:


Nupine said:


> BUT, if he doesn't heal, we aren't taking him. If she makes him super discounted I might. Also, he has been limping for like 2 weeks now, should she have called a VET?! Or is that our choice? Who would pay? I personally want him looked at. What do we do legally? Ashlyn


Because you have not paid in full, you do not own the animal. Therefiore the breeder still owns the animal and is responsible for making all the decisions for that animal. I dont thinkk you should compinsate her for medical bills or should have to pay more for him. I also dont think you should get a discount on him if he ends up being lame (she would just be loseing money). If you dont want him lame, get your deposit back so she can find someone who doesnt mind his lameness. With animals, what you see upon final payment is what you get.

I know its frustrating to have to wait for your goaties but I would rather wait years for a really nice buck to get healthy then get a really nice goat that is unhealthy now. On the up-side, if you wait till after he is seen by the vet and treated, you dont have to pay the vet bills. If you get him now and decided to go the the vet, you have to pay it all. So does however need to tell you the outcome of his vet visit.

I am 18 (although I can drive) so Im in the same boat you are. This is just how I view the situationa nd how I would have handled the situation if I was the breeder. Also, as a buyer (with deposite of course) you have every right to visit your investment. Its like putting a down payment on a house, seeing it once and then never being allowed in the house again until you pay it off.

I also know that breeders have lives but as I said before, 2 weeks without a phone call is rediculous. I can only imagine how embarrassed she must be though. I have had one of my sold babies die of pnuemonia and I was so embarrassed!! I thought that my buyer would think I was selling defective goats. Thankfully, she understood that no matter where you are or what herd you buy from, the circle of life continues. She understood that pnuemonia, just like getting out of a pen and injuring a leg, is preventable only if you know its happening, its not something you can predict.

Just so you know, in the eyes of the law, animals are property. as with a house or car, until you have paid the full purchase price. You do not own that animal. It does not matter how you want the situation handled. It does not matter how you feel the little guy should be treated. When it comes down to it, he is still not yours, so you have no say whatsoever. Im sorry but thats just the way it is. I personally love each one of my goats dearly and could NEVER think of them as just property but the law sees them differently.

I hope this helps a little. Its just my 2 cents...... from the mind of someone just a year older than you (not like all the rest of those "old" guys who havent entered our instant gratification era LOL!!!! :shades: Just Kidding!!!! I  ya guys!!!) Smooches to all!!

CJ


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Well, I do think it's OK to call, if she hasn't called you by now. She really does owe you the curtesy of a phone call. Does she have and e-mail address? I'd talk to the husband, if he answers don't ask for her, talk to him, men are usually less emotional about this sort of thing.

So, was there an "obvious" reason you chose this boy over the brother? If not and the brother is "as good as" the first boy you still have a good "herdsire prospect". Sorry you're having this trouble. :hug: Hope you talk to her soon.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

I think once my mom gets up from her siesta we will call because she may have already taken him to the vet and not called us. About the other buck. He is nice but we wanted a spotted buck, he is just cou clair. [I think, the white color with black markings, alpine colors confuse me lol] He is also $100 less, so..........who knows. As far as blood lines the injured buck: His grand dam on his paternal side is Irish Rose, and his grand dam on his maternal side is SF Jasmine, who was Grand Champion Alpine yearling at the 2006 ADGA nationals and Best Udder. The other buck has Giovanni [Buck] and a very nice Seau A Lait doe on his paternal side and the Shapleys nice doe Oreo on his Paternal side, which is our doe Breeze's dam. So Oreo is Breezes dam and is the bucks grand dam. Is that bad? I got to see that buck when he was disbudded [our friend did ours and theirs at the same time] and he is a cutie. So I am pretty upset about this. Laverne handles the goats, so I don't think her husband [who we have never even seen BTW] or children would be much help. There is no other bucks around. Our friend raises registered alpines and they are very nice, but they are ''homesteaders'' and refused to sell us their only 2008 buckling and he went for meat for like free because they insisted he wasn't good enough. But they are probably right. So I will just have to ride this out. I know it is very hard being a kid and wanting to make decisions and go places. My mom has a large full size van so going places is expensive with gas. We will see what we can go. I will just be upset if she puts him to sleep when we may offer to pay for surgery and doesn't tell us for a while. He did have his CDT shot. I could settle for the other one but we really wanted this one. Thanks for the support. :leap:  :hug: 
:leap: Ashlyn


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-Great News!!*

Ok. We called Laverne finally today. She said she couldn't get a vet in or something because they wanted to x-ray and she said goats don't take anestishia well and can die or something. :shrug: But she talked to the ''Lohri's'' as we call them who are also our friends and are as homesteader as it gets. They said that they once had a wether sheep who had limped, but there was no injury to the leg, then eventually healed, and when they slaughtered it it had a cracked rib. Laverne feels a bump on his rib, so she thinks that is what is causing the limp, a cracked rib. So she says he is putting a little weight on the foot now, and he will come home to us next weekend. I HATE to wait that long, but we have a horse show and skillathons and stuff this week so I guess it is fine. We will not get his registration papers untill he is healed and we know we want him. We have to finish the fencing though, yippee. We don't have enough cattle panels to go around, so my mom wants to put up some fencing we have that I call ''rabbit fencing''. We used it in our goat pasture, and they have completly ruined it. They even broke the actually fence in many places. It is very flimsy 2'' by 4'' welded wire. So I don't think it can hold a 250 pound buck if it can't hold our does. So we will have to work something out. Who knows. Will get back to you soon. So I will finally get my little buck. :leap: :clap:  :wahoo: :stars: :dance: :sun: :horse: :shades: :greengrin:  :thumb: :thumbup: 
Ashlyn


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Yes, a cracked rib will cause a limp. I hope that's all it is...it hurts but definately not fatal! It may take some time to heal, though. I sure hope your mom rethinks that flimsy fencing. It won't work very long, that's for sure. I wouldn't want him to escape and have another injury! Well, good, I'm sure you are very happy! Congrats! :leap:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Ashlyn, thats awesome that you will be bringing him home soon.. :leap: ...and yes it would be wise to rethink the fencing situation...why pay all that money just to possibly have an issue later that can be taken care of now...hope you can talk your mom into something alot sturdier than "cage wire"


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Thanks. It may take a couple months but it should heal fine. We will rry to work something out on the fencing.  :greengrin:


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## QotL (May 27, 2008)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Hopefully you get your little buck, so none of what I'm about to say will matter :wink:

I had a little doe lined up. Waited several weeks for her to be weaned and ready, talked to the prev. owner on the phone for the 3days in a ROW up until pick up day. Lined up my dad to come with me, and made sure dh would be home with the kids. Drove 40 mins (with the price of gas that's what... $7,000? :greengrin: JK). Got to the correct location and..... the woman had not bothered to seperate my girl from the herd, the girl was VERY wild, and the woman tried to sell me a buckling instead. My dad (who gave up his morning) and I (who had other things to do) stood around for 20mins while the lady made excuses, and eventually I took home a different doe altogether, with a promise that she would catch my original girl, and that I could have both for the same price. I was very irritated, but ok...

Called her 2 weeks later.. and she had released my girl into ANOTHER pasture, when would I like to pick her up? Yeah, right. Frustrated, and confused, I cut my losses and found another (very friendly) gal from someone else, and have not regretted my decision at all.

It stinks, but if I've learned nothing else in my (elderly compared to some of you  ) years, it's DON'T get attached to something UNTIL you get it home. That applies to cars, furniture, homes, too. Nothing is set in stone until you bring your new creature onto your own property. Before that.. you are at the mercy of the seller. It hurts a lot less if you keep an emotional distance in the meantime. It's hard, I know. I cried after the first visit, because we SO badly wanted the other doeling, but we are fine. The kids were disappointed, I was disappointed.

And honestly- I do think this seller is trying to do right by this little goat. I don't necessarily agree with her communication style, but she is well within her rights here and I think her heart is in the right place when it comes to the buckling. It would be a shame if you got him home and discovered there was something fatally wrong with him, and I'm sure the seller doesn't want that to happen, either. And in the end, yes it will have taken longer, but you will have a healthy herdsire to add to your group, and she can be honest with herself that she did what was best for everyone (goat included) all the way around.

And as for the doe I have now, that wasn't the one I wanted... It's Loopa. Beautiful, silly, and quite possibly pregnant, so we may get our baby after all. :greengrin:

Good luck, and I'll be watching for the pics!

Meghan


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Hopefully he is coming TOMORROW!!!!!!!!!!


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

Oh yaaaah! I'm so happy for you! :stars:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: A buck, A buck, I got a BUCK!-He's injured-I need major help*

:leap: :stars: Need piccies too!!!


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

*Re: I got a BUCK!-Tragedy something called Happiness*

I have bad news and good news. Saturday, the day we were supposed to pick him up, I called at about 8:45 a.m., her husband answered. He sounded gloomy. He said that his wife wasn't up yet, and should be up by 9:15. What? A woman with does in milk, a job, and 2 kids gets up at 9:15?! Whatever. She called at 9:00. I answered, she sounded gloomy too. She asked if she could talk to my mom. At that time I knew something was up, as I am sensitive and that would be why she would want to talk to my mom. While my mom is talking to her, my mom says ''OH NO''. And shakes her head to me. I then burst in to tears, she had him put to sleep Thursday. :tears: Here is the story. He started to grow back horns/scurs [who cares?] so she had him burned again. It caused him to go downhill. She took him to the vet, and they said that there is nothing they can do except surgery, as his shoulder is broken/dislocated. We could have afforded it anyway. So I was completly heartbroken. We have a probably $500 fancy buck pen made that is empty. So mom said we will just have find another buck. The only place I can think to look is my ADGA member directory. [It is now noon] I see a few members with Alpines that are somewhat near. I see one with every breed in the book, so I call. No answer. Then I call another, no bucklings avaliable. I call the first one again. They answer. I ask about a buckling. They have one!! I know that asking the price first isn't a good idea, so I ask some other questions. He is 4 1/2 months old, cou clair [black and white], bottle fed, very sweet, dam was milking 5-6 quarts a day as a second freshener [wow!!], registered as american, good bloodlines, and.....wait for it.....$100!! The woman has kidney trouble, including an operation this week, and diabetes, and is overrun with goats. She said that she would normaly ask at least $200 for him, but she said because she has too many goats and that I sounded like I was a very good peson and would give him a great life, she would lower the price. My mom was sleeping nad my dad was in town, so I said I would call her back on our decision. When I talk to them once they get up/come home they said it sounded great and my dad said he would take me there and get him for me!! I call her back, we get directions, pack the small car [save gas] with collars and leads, a tarp, and hay, and head off for a 2 hour drive. When we get there, I was somewhat pleased with the housing of the goats. She had maybe 50-75 [ :shocked: ] goats, most of them kept in pens in the barn, it was somewhat clean and most of the goats were healthy, except the exceptions of a few diarheaas, runny noses, one abcess, one that lost half her udder and a few other little things. The woman and her daughter were extremely nice and were more interested in what kind of home he would be going to then the $100. They had oberhaslis! I had never seen one before. The buckling is so cute and HUGE!! He had a snotty nose, but was healthy other wise. His mom had a nice udder for being dry, and his dad and grandpa were huge and his daddy was spotted!!! I definitly wanted him. We load him up, say goodbye, and head home for the 2-hour drive. He was very well behaved in the car. He is coping well in his new home, and follows us around his pen. He has diarhea, which we are treating, and didn't eat the first 24 hours, but is now. He is so sweet. He does have some scurs, but I guess that is pretty normal in a buck unless you reburn. But he will not be shown so it is fine. He is the cutest, and mom loves him too. No name yet, we are thinking Ironman as he has Iron in his lineage. Cute huh? We will be using him on Heidi and Hannah next year, as the first breeder owes us a breeding to her GCH Blade Runner, so we will be using that for Breeze. The buck, currently called ''Bucky'', is very long, has very correct front legs when viewed from the front, but is a little ''bent'' when viewed from the side, and has a wide hip and very strong legs. I am not good a judging bucks, so that is all I c an say. Our alpine friend will be looking at him next week, so I will tell you waht she ways. We are quarintining him, then will put Stewey the wether in there for him. He crys when we leave his pen, and has a more ''sissy'' cry then a day old kid. :ROFL: I love him. I will put pics up when and if I can, but I will be going to a once in a life time oppurtunity 4 day Ohio 4-
H leadership camp thing bob that is on a scholarship, so I am very excited but will miss my bucky. :tears: I will try to get back on tonight. I am upset aboout the other buck, but am happy about this one.
Ashlyn


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

Wow! :hug: I feel for you about the buckling that was put to sleep  but it sounds like a pretty good deal that you got. Congrats and can't wait for pics!! :leap:


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## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

delete


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Ashlyn, I'm glad you got a little happiness out of the situation, it is sad though that your first buckling had to suffer so long before he was laid to rest. I pray that this lil' boy is healthy and provides you with what you have been looking for and I know you had your herds health and safety in mind when you decided to get him. :hug:


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

susanne said:


> i don't think i would have taken that buckling with another goat on the place that had an abscess.
> i totally understand why you took him.
> i hope at least you will have him in quarantine and test for cae and cl?


I am sorry you feel that way, I thought you would all be happy for me. But I do understand where you are coming from. The abcess did not look like CL, and it was only one. She was not in the same pen with him. We don't test for CL, but we will be testing again for CAE in January for the whole herd. He is quarintined. We have a name! His sire is Wiley Wilson, so we are naming him Merri-Acres WW Ironman. I hope he will grow up to be a gentleman. He is already starting to stink! Yes liz, it is sad, he had that injured leg for almost a month. Here is something else that is sad: Last year at the county fair, where I show my goats, there was a market wether that wasn't putting ANY weight on one of his front legs. I looked at it through the pen and it was white underneath, I thought foot rot. So I told the goat super, who is a breeder of very high quality boer goats and market wethers, and she replied, ''Oh its just a broken leg!''. WOW!! A 15 year old girl was showing that goat, and that is ridiculus that someone has the courage walk a lame goat into the showring. The fairboard FREAKED OUT that we took our UTV there to haul feed up to the barn twice a day to feed because we had a campsite way way in the back, and I never saw a rule about that in the book, yet they allow this to go on! Thanks for the support!
Ashlyn
Glenn Beck for President!!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Ashlyn there is nothing wrong with someone stating how they feel about the situation. Susanne did not say she wasn't happy for you just concerned for the rest of your herd.

I would test for CL because of that abcess. You cant say that only one goat had an abcess and ti wasnt cl. You did say she had close to 35 goats. Unless you inspected each one and saw no abcesses you cant say that. Of course I am not saying that this lady has a CL outbreak going on. But assumptions like you made are what get diseases spread unknowingly. 

CL is far worse then CAE in my oppion. 

I am glad you got a buck to use and a fair deal on him. I hope his bloodlines are what you were looking for. You went from needing those bloodlines to just getting the next buck available. :shrug:


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Sorry Stacy. :doh: Would just like to say I think you are like the best person on here to be the administrater, in a good way of course. He is doing fine and is over being sick except for a little sneezing and runny nose, but we starting him on antibiotics tomorrow again, just to be sure. We probably will have him tested, does anyone know the cost? He is very sweet. I love him. One scur fell off, but no blood or anything. He isn't eating grain as well as I would expect, but LOVES the hay, which isn't even that fantastic. :shrug: He munches all day long. Thanks for the input.
Ashlyn


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

thanks for the complement Ashlyn.

As for getting him tested --- try pavlab.com Contact them via e-mail, they have been very quick to respond for me and very helpful with my questions. 

From what I hear you need to wait till the goat is 6 months old for the CAE test to be accurate. Not sure if that is the same for CL.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I too would get him tested for CL and CAE while your at it. I would hate for you to buy a goat that passed it to the rest of your herd. Chances are it is not CL but it will give you peace of mind. Oh and Congrats! Can't wait for pics!


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## FarmGirl18 (Oct 5, 2007)

I use the lab Stacey mentioned for testing...if you send in the blood yourself it's only like $6.00 per test. I pull my own blood, but you would probably want to have someone experienced do it, or show you how to do it.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Hmmmm.....that is really cheap! But do you like put the blood in a little capsule or what? To pull blood don't you just stick a needle sideways into the neck and pull the blood out?
Ashlyn


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I use Washington State University. It is not just sticking a needle in their neck, you have to get it into their jugular vein. It takes some practice, I have watched several vets do it and even for them it is not easy - not usually atleast. I am going to pull blood myself next spring. 

Chelsey


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## FarmGirl18 (Oct 5, 2007)

You put it in special blood tubes that you should be able to get from your vet. And yes it does take practice to be able to hit the vein, but it's really not all that hard. I put my goats on a grooming stand that I have with side rails and it holds their head up really high, raise them up and have my brother hold off the vein while I draw.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

The vets that I have seen do it have had to search and search for the vein. A little intimidating lol.


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## FarmGirl18 (Oct 5, 2007)

Weird, because once I figured out what I was looking for it's really not bad at all. And after doing my Boers with their big fat necks, the Nubians were a total piece of cake. The vein sticks out big as Dallas.  I used half inch needles as opposed to one inch, worked a lot better because I wasn't going all the way through the vein every time. You'll be able to do it for sure, Chelsey.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Here is a website with instructions on drawing blood.

http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/drawblood/index.html

Hope this works, I have to say, "I haven't tried this at home"... yet.


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## Sweet Gum Minis (Oct 6, 2007)

I pulled blood myself this year out of 30something goats. Wasn't that bad. Only a few I had trouble on and it was normally ones I ended up having to do with the goat standing. We usually lay the goat across the milk stand and hubby leans on them to keep them in place. Makes the vein really pop up for easy locating and pulling. I really had great success with this. Even on Petite who last year we tried 4 times to pull blood from. Gave up and had the vet come out and pull blood and when they got to Petite they too had to try 4 times. This year I got her on the first try.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Interesting. He is doing really well, and is eating all his grain and loves hay. He escaped a couple days and went into the donkey pasture, and I heard screaming and rushed outside and saw the donkey with poor buck's neck inside his mouth. I yelled and the donkey realeased and I carried 50# bucky back to his pen as he was like panting and shaking. We fixed the spot really well. He was not injured, just a bunch of slobber on his neck. All better. :greengrin:


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

That had to be scary! Did you get any pics yet? We are looking forward to seeing your little guy!


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

It was! I will have to get some tomorrow.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

We took him to the vet yesterday morning. They said he may have a little phnemonia [sp?], so we got lots of antibiotics, they checked him over, pulled lood for CL, and did a fecal test for our other goats for worms [they said they are loaded, so we wormed them], all for about $25! We were shocked!
Ashlyn


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Wow! That's a great price. Hope he gets all fixed up and better for u soon.


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## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

He is doing well, and growing very fast. He is soooo involved in his food now that he couldn't care less about us! :ROFL: :slapfloor:


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

OK, we've waited patiently for pictures...now I'm going to whine! May we pleeaassee have a picture!? :hi5:


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