# Sick Doe



## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

Ok, I will try to be concise but thorough.

Allie (4 years old Saanen doe) freshened three weeks ago when she kidded triplets. Three males, one was DOA and appeared to have been dead for quite a while inside her. Assistance was necessary during his delivery. Both his brothers are healthy. Since she needed help I gave her 3cc pen-aqueous daily for 3 days to ward off any infection.

For about 1 or 2 weeks after freshening she was doing very well in milk production and health. About 2.5-3 weeks she began losing weight and her Somatic Cell Count came back very high (3 million). I treated with ToDAY (2 doses in 24 hours) and when retested her SCC remained the same. I then treated with MastiClear (2 doses in 24 hours) and her SCC was greatly reduced (just under 1 million).

Throughout this time she continued to lose weight and at one point displayed a mild fever (104F). I gave her 3cc pen-aqueous for 3 days and she perked up and began eating better. There was slight weight gain. When I tested her for _h. contortus_ worms (FAMACHA score of anemia) she scored a 4, pretty anemic (1= no worms and 5= dying any second due to anemia). I treated her with Rumatel to no avail. I retreated her the next day and still no results. Finally I used Safeguard, Probiotics, and included injections of B12 and A & D vitamins. Her health did not improve, nor did it get much better, although her score of anemia returned to a 3 - not too horribly anemic.

Today (1 week after the Safeguard, etc.) I checked her and she had a fever of 105F, she has lost even more weight, her anemia score was back to a 4 (pretty bad) and now refuses grain altogether (she still browses a bit off and on during the day though). I gave her 3cc pen-aqueous again, dosed her with ivomec sheep and goat oral drench, more b12, more probiotics, and an infusion of Masticlear in the left half (today it was swollen, hot, and had very low milk letdown).

I'm so confused! What is going on with her!!! :hair:

PS: anyone know what the milk withdrawal is for ivomec?


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

One thing is you are not using enough antibiotics for long enough. If anything the low dose for a short amount of time is creating resistant bacteria. Try the pen g at 1cc per 10lbs twice a day for 7 days. You need to kill these resitant bacteria. Better yet use another antibiotic if you have it. 

Safeguard has become pretty weak. I would give her the safeguard for 3-5 days. That will kill the worms and their eggs. Make sure you give the ivomec again in 7-10 days. Ivomec milk withdrawal isn't that long. Some people wait 3 days, others 20.


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## sealawyer (May 31, 2009)

She is a milk breed? If you treat her with cydectin will it hurt the kids? If you do you can't use the milk for human consumtion. Treat her with Cydectin injectable at a dosage of 1 cc per 50 pounds of goat orally. You can inject the goat at 1 cc per 100 pounds and it will do just as well. Since she is sick, you wouldn't be using the milk for people food anyway? This may be the only thing that is effective. Watch her for sudden worm release in her stomach and give her some good old Geritol that you get from the store. It's good for them and it tastes good too. Gwen lets the goats sniff the drencher first and they start lappin' at the drops coming out and take it readily. Just a trick learned from an old goat man. With the Cydectin, if you give just a little too much it won't hurt them.
Get her well soon before it gets worse. Good Luck!


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## sealawyer (May 31, 2009)

Sorry folks, but ivomec doesn't even work in Texas anymore. Folks are finding that Cydectin and prohibit work best. The rest are just like treating them with water.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Ashely is correct - you need to give Penicillin for at least 5 days for full effect or you start to do more harm then good, 7 days is even better. I use 1cc per 20lbs for mild cases of infection but 1cc per 10lbs for major cases.

I would try LA 200 or something stronger like Naxcel though now as Ashely also stated.

a vet could give you a more accurate diagnosis as she is showing symptoms of several things and her anemia could be directly related to her infection as the body is trying its hardest to heal itself.

Sounds like you need to find a stronger wormer - Fred seems to know what is best for your area so I would go with his recomendation.


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

This morning she had a fever of 105.1F so I gave her 5 baby aspirin with her penicillin and second teat infusion of dry-cow Masticlear because they don't sell the masticlear for lactating cattle in my area (I plan to infuse her 4 times total).



RunAround said:


> One thing is you are not using enough antibiotics for long enough. If anything the low dose for a short amount of time is creating resistant bacteria.


Good Grief! :angry: I was following the directions on the pen-aqueous bottle (even giving more than the bottle said) and the instructions in the Texas A&M textbook "Livestock Health Management" where it says to give penicillin for 3 days after assisting in a delivery. I was doing all of this so I wasn't creating antibiotic resistant bacteria! :hair: This is so confusing! Everything says something different!



StaceyRoop said:


> Ashely is correct - you need to give Penicillin for at least 5 days for full effect or you start to do more harm then good, 7 days is even better. I use 1cc per 20lbs for mild cases of infection but 1cc per 10lbs for major cases.


But the bottle says 1cc per _100lbs_! I am hoping to use her milk for human consumption . . . wont the withdrawal period be really long if I treat 1cc per 10lbs?



sealawyer said:


> Sorry folks, but ivomec doesn't even work in Texas anymore. Folks are finding that Cydectin and prohibit work best. The rest are just like treating them with water.


But you can't use their milk for people if you treat with Cydectin, right? That's what the farm is planning to use her for. She was one of our best producers last year. :sigh:

It's 99F out here and that certainly does not help her fever. She has constant access to shade and fresh water, but she's not really interested in eating as much as usual. Could her temperature be so high because of the heat outside?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

if she is dead or sick for long she isnt worth a thing to the farm. Best to treat her, then wait to use the milk.

As to the penicillin - Idont know why the bottles never lable it for goats but according to my vet and all conventional wisdom 1cc per 20lbs or 1cc per10lbs is very normal for goats and you do give it for 5-7 days no less.

YOu need to get the TODAY - it is a mastitis treatmet for lactating dairy. You can get it from several locations. I know http://www.jefferslivestock.com carries it as does valleyvet.com and http://www.hoeggars.com

you are already treating her with all these things - the milk withdrawl time I wouldnt knwo but with the mastitis you cant drink the milk anyway till it is cleared up


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

StaceyRoop said:


> YOu need to get the TODAY - it is a mastitis treatmet for lactating dairy.


I tried that first and it didn't do a thing (somatic cell counts stayed in the 3millions). When I used Masticlear and penicillin shots it cleared up for a short while . . . that's why I'm using the masticlear now.

I'm planning on holding her milk for 1 week after I stop all treatment. Does that sound pretty safe?

Thanks so much for all your help and wisdom, everyone :grouphug:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

if the milk is being used for human consumption and for sale then I would assume there are regulations that you need to check into. A vet would know more about it.

As to the Today I am surprised it didnt work, but glad you have something that does work


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I think they all said it already. I was going to say the same thing. You have to treat her and get that cleared up before she is dead, or you will not have any chance of using any milk. Check the bottle for the Withdraw period. 

I would also keep giving her the Vit B12 at a rate of 1cc per 50#. That will help with her anemia and stimulate her appetite. Also I would give her some Calcium, if you have CMPK, if not get some calcium pills cruch them and let her eat the powder and as much as she would like.


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

StaceyRoop said:


> if the milk is being used for human consumption and for sale then I would assume there are regulations that you need to check into. A vet would know more about it.


The second vet I called said to use 2.5cc penicillin per day for 5-7 days and include the B12 as well.



sweetgoats said:


> I would also keep giving her the Vit B12 at a rate of 1cc per 50#. That will help with her anemia and stimulate her appetite.


How often should I give her that? I've been giving her about 3cc daily (she weighs 145lbs). I figure more couldn't hurt?? :shrug:



StaceyRoop said:


> As to the Today I am surprised it didnt work, but glad you have something that does work


ToDay hasn't worked well for me. I think the farm may have used it a lot in the past so maybe our girls are becoming immune? :shrug:

Thanks again everyone! :hug: The health issues have been kicking my butt lately :GAAH: . . . I need a break :coffee2:


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

You are going to want to give the pen G at least 7 days now that you have created resistant bacteria. Did the vet you talked to have any experience with goats?


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

RunAround said:


> Did the vet you talked to have any experience with goats?


Yeah, some . . . he grew up on a meat goat farm. :shrug:


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

Today her fever is 106F!!!! :shocked: I'm switching to the LA200 and I gave her 7cc this morning according to the cattle dosage on the box. I assume that's probably wrong though . . . what dose would y'all recommend for the LA200?

When I gave her the B12 she started eating pretty well so she's not off feed . . . but she's incredibly skinny :tears:

Edit: I also dumped cool water all over her to bring her temp down. She looked a little perkier afterward and thank God there's a breeze today! :worried:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I give the LA 200 at 1cc per 20lbs

so yah unless she is only 140 lbs you need to give her more


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

She needs to go to a vet that knows goats NOW days, not just one that raised them a long time ago.

I would not wait, she also needs some Banamein (sp) for her temp to get it down.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I totally agree with Lori here, the poor doe needs a vet quickly, one that knows goats. I am very concerned.


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

I have some of that medicine to get her fever down. I can give her that now.

I don't think there are vets around us that have good knowledge in goats. :shrug: I've done some looking . . . 

If her fever does not improve by tomorrow on the LA200 I will take her to the vet. :tears:


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

StaceyRoop said:


> I give the LA 200 at 1cc per 20lbs
> 
> so yah unless she is only 140 lbs you need to give her more


She weights 145


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## ksacres (Oct 30, 2007)

You say she is very skinny. It is normal for dairy goats to have a "thin" look, especially when compared to meat/pet breeds.

If she is truly very thin, then has she been tested for John's, CAE, and CL? All three of these diseases can cause "chronic wasting", which is basically an animal becomming thin over time while having access to, and eating, adequate amounts of food. CAE has been tied chronic mastitis/edema issues as well. CL can cause abscesses inside the udder. I don't know that much about John's, other than it can cause impaired immune function-thereby leaving the goat susceptable to frequent infections.


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

she has CAE :tears:

we're going to the vet at 10:15 tomorrow morning


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

With CAE, I'm sorry but you are likely fighting an up hill battle. :hug:


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

we've never had a problem with CAE in the past . . . nothing this severe at least :sigh: :tears:

edit: except for Falsie, who I posted about earlier in the thread - "Hard Udder" that was the first time (so my boss says) that the farm has ever seen any animal die because of CAE, but she was 11 . . . . . . . . . . Allie is only 4 years old for goodness sakes! :tears:

edit2: she's limping now too . . . I trimmed her hooves and they are fine. there is no swelling. :shrug:  :tears:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

CAE is Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis so her having a a limp is not that uncommon.

I hope you are keeping her milk from all the new babies so that they dont CAE. It isnt a death sentence but as you can see some goats live good lives and others it tears them down early.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Limping is from the pain her udder is causing her. I had that happen to my doe I had to put down due to gangrene mastitis.


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## ksacres (Oct 30, 2007)

liz said:


> With CAE, I'm sorry but you are likely fighting an up hill battle. :hug:


I agree. I have no problem with people that keep CAE + goats, as it is certainly not necessarily a death sentence, and in my opinion waaaay over inflated as a "severe" problem.

But, it's generally agreed that if a goat is suffering/showing manifestations of the disease, they should be humanely euthanized.

It is estimated that only 10% of infected/positive goats ever show any symptoms, so the majority of infected animals will be just fine. But please, don't make your goatie suffer because you don't want to say goodbye. :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry about the CAE  it is never easy, no matter how you look at it. :hug:


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

So the vet said that she has a systemic infection (obviously) caused by mastitis that got out of control because her immune system was compromised by a difficult birth and by CAE. She also has milk pneumonia. :sigh: He gave me Banamide (sp?) and said that I should start seeing improvement in a week to 10 days . . . if I don't see it then there wont be any improvement. :tears:

Her temp is much better today though - 104.9F :greengrin: so that's some good news!

EDIT: He also said to give her the LA200 - 7cc every _fourth_day :scratch: He said, "So if you gave her a shot on Wednesday then give her another one Saturday and then another on Tuesday." . . . is that right or no? :shrug: sounded off to me


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

LA 200 should be every other day. 

I hope she does improve for you 

she still has a fever at 104.9 but yah it is better thenbefore thats for sure


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

it can be given every other day or every day depending on the severity of the infection.


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## ksacres (Oct 30, 2007)

kornhypknotic said:


> EDIT: He also said to give her the LA200 - 7cc every _fourth_day :scratch: He said, "So if you gave her a shot on Wednesday then give her another one Saturday and then another on Tuesday." . . . is that right or no? :shrug: sounded off to me


My vet says every three days. He says it stays in their system a long time, and giving it more often is overkill. I just recently found my new vet, well, new two. They are exclusively large animal, and they actually *know* about goats. It's amazing!


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I so hate to say it because it is not my goat, but I think you are just prolonging the obvious. :hug:


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

Ok, so 7cc (she weighs ~140lbs) every other day is ok? 

I'm also giving her 2cc banamide (sp) daily for 3 days, like the vet said . . . if her temp is still up after that should i get more banamide from him or can i just use aspirin?

Edit: I just got her somatic cell count results back from when I sent them in on Tuesday. The left side is over 5 million and the right is over 1 million (that was before I double-infused her with penicillin) :sigh: 

My milkers tell me that they can get more milk out of the left side today than they could before.


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

sweetgoats said:


> I so hate to say it because it is not my goat, but I think you are just prolonging the obvious. :hug:


 :hug: thanks sweetgoats . . . but the vet seemed pretty positive when he saw her. . . i'll give Allie the 10 days of treatment and we'll go from there


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

kornhypknotic said:


> sweetgoats said:
> 
> 
> > I so hate to say it because it is not my goat, but I think you are just prolonging the obvious. :hug:
> ...


 You know Jess, She is your goat and you know her better then anyone else so I hope she is not as bad as I am thinking. ray: That she recovers.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I pray, she makes it threw this, prayers your way. ray: :hug:


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

Her temp was only 104F today!  Yesterday evening I gave her all her shots (LA200, banamide, and b12) and she looked _slightly_ more filled out in the tummy . . . i guess she had eaten more than she has been recently :thumbup:

anyway . . . there is slight improvement ray:



sweetgoats said:


> You know Jess, She is your goat and you know her better then anyone else


I do know her better than anyone else, for sure . . . but she's not _my_ goat per-say . . . that's why I have to run most major treatments by my boss before I do anything major to a goat . . . like taking a goat to the vet . . . or putting one down. It can be frustrating when the two of us have conflicting opinions :GAAH: . . . but this time we both agree that she's worth the labor and money to try to get her well ray: . I think that in a week it will be very obvious if we are wasting our time or not.

 ha! . . . . I just watched her headbutt one of our boer goats out of the way so she could get at the best side of the hay manger :wink: i think she's maybe feeling a bit more herself now too :thumbup:


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

:) ha! . . . . I just watched her headbutt one of our boer goats out of the way so she could get at the best side of the hay manger :wink: i think she's maybe feeling a bit more herself now too :thumbup:[/quote said:


> That is a great sign. When they are willing to fight the others off. :clap:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> ha! . . . . I just watched her headbutt one of our boer goats out of the way so she could get at the best side of the hay manger :wink: i think she's maybe feeling a bit more herself now too


 that is terrific news :thumbup: my prayers are working. 
I will pray some more. ray: :leap:


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## sealawyer (May 31, 2009)

Jess, I am happy that your goat appears to be on the road to recovery! :clap: It's a very stressfull time when one of the animals we care for is ill, we as their caretakers feel it as much as they do sometimes. I've been working the last few days so I just got I-net access and am trying to catch up with life! If you don't mind me asking, who is your goat Vet? Sometimes I get inquiries into who folks should take their animals to. If you are pleased with His/her tratment of your animals then would you please let me know. Maybe I can refer someone to them! Thanks, and I'm glad your nanny goat is better!


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## kornhypknotic (May 15, 2009)

UPDATE! :stars:

Allie is looking a TON better (and has been for about 2 weeks now)!!! :leap: :dance: :wahoo: Her udder is no longer hot, she has no fever, she's eating great, and she's being a dork  (as is her normal temperament :thumbup: )! I'm very happy that she's recovering well!

I was convinced that she was healed . . . then I got her somatic cell counts (SCC's) back. :GAAH: Her right half is perfection  , but her left half (the one causing all this trouble) has a SCC of 1,903,000 :shocked: :doh: . . . So, obviously she is not cured, although she is no longer at the brink of death, thank God ray: .

Now I'm at a complete loss as to what to do. I don't have a clue how to (or if I should) continue treating her. Any ideas? :shrug:

Thanks y'all for all the support and advice everyone gave me! :grouphug:



sealawyer said:


> If you don't mind me asking, who is your goat Vet? Sometimes I get inquiries into who folks should take their animals to.


Sealawyer, our goats are taken to Dr. Terry Hurst at Robinson Drive Animal Hospital. He is a very good and practical vet and is also willing to give care instructions over the phone. I do recommend him, although I'm not sure how up-to-date he is on goat stuff. Here is the address:
Robinson Drive Animal Hospital
1209 S Robinson Dr
Robinson, TX 76706-6147
Phone: (254) 662-2380


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## citylights (Jul 3, 2009)

My two cents -- there are some antibiotics that will cross certain "tissue barriers." For instance, I treated a doe with a uterus infection with NuFlor, only to find that it may not cross "into" the uterus and address that infection. Tetracycline is one that is used to treat uterine infections. When/if you talk to your vet, make sure you are getting an antibiotic that is able to reach whatever system you are trying to medicate... I don't know about the udder -- we don't milk our pygmies very often -- but check that out if you can.... good luck, Denise


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## sealawyer (May 31, 2009)

Thanks Jess, and good luck with your nanny. I will file the vet info away with the rest of my referral info. And you can call me Fred. Sealawyer is my nickname in the fleet! :wave:


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