# Llamas, and mini llamas



## ThreeHavens

Guess who has coyotes? :-( So far they haven't touched the animals, but we're concerned. The bucks have a run-in shed and we keep the horses up close to them at night. The does are shut in. We ordered coyote lights.

We are seriously considering a llama. I'm wondering ... does anyone have experience with mini llamas? Would they do the same thing?

And about llamas in general, what are your thoughts and experiences?


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## ksalvagno

You want a full size llama. You need the weight. A 200-300 lb llama stomp can kill them. I had a 250 lb llama that killed a medium size dog.

1 llama can not take on a pack of dogs. But their presence will scare off animals and people. They do need to be shorn yearly. Toenails trimmed on a regular basis. I did love my guard llamas. You just need to make sure they are actually guards.


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## ThreeHavens

I use fiber so I would love that aspect. I figured their toenails would need trimming. Are they usually pleasant, with the right breeding? Nice to have around?

One thing I'm wondering - my horses are housed right next to my goats. Do you think that would be deterrent enough? They aren't guards but they're big.


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## ksalvagno

The horses definitely could be a deterrent. Llamas can be pleasant. More standoffish is usually a good guard sign but my 2 llamas liked their neck and back scratched. I had to put them in a chute for toenails but if you worked with them enough, they should do fine.


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## kccjer

I've watched a coyote trot right thru a herd of cows. Unless your horses will attack dogs they won't faze the coyotes. A LGD or llama or donkey would be your best bet


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## ThreeHavens

Thank you, Carmen. We can't do a dog ... have you had experience with a llama?


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## kccjer

I've got both llamas and burros (wild donkeys we adopted from the BLM) The llamas will go after strange dogs and coyotes. Pretty cool to watch. LOL The burros will do the same. I've actually had to protect any new dogs from the burros! If you get llamas and your horses haven't seen any before....be ready for some freaked out horses.


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## ThreeHavens

Wow, cool! Do you have problems with a llama bullying the goats, or new kids? The llama would probably be back with the bucks ... but I may switch him around depending on pasture rotation.

I'm thinking if I choose a llama, I may want to raise it from a baby so it's used to the goats and not as lonely coming from a llama herd into a goat herd. Could it be happy as an only llama in a goat herd? I would hate for him to be lonely.


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## kccjer

I've not had any problems with the llamas bullying goats at all. I've never had a single llama so don't know about a lonely one...always had at least 2. The 1st 2 I had came from a farm with no goats or sheep. They never bothered my goats. If you get a baby....it probably won't be much protection to begin with. You'd be better off seeing if you could find one that had been around goats or sheep. Make sure if it's male, it's neutered.


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## Trickyroo

Oh no !!! How scary for you Danielle !!!!! Did you see one or hear about one from a neighbor ? That really is so scary !!
I have no advice to offer on Llamas , but i do know Karen raised them , so if no one else can tell you about wether or not to keep one or two , i know she can  Good luck on whatever you choose !
You must share pictures you know


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## ksalvagno

If you get a young llama, you won't know if it will guard. They should be 3 or older and proven.


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## Jessica84

I have alpacas. They have never been around goats till I got them. I don't know if I 100% trust that they would really protect the goats because as Karen said they are not very big. BUT I have watched them and they are freaky animals. They always have to check things out. They put their head down and kinda stock what is new to them. For my puppy that freaks her out lol. I think they also have a smell to them because the horses will freak out without even seeing them. They both, male and female like small things. My puppy was chasing a duck and the duck went into the males pen. He made a god awful noise and when the puppy got close to the fence he spit on her. The female LOVES baby goats. I have a goat in labor right now and she refuses to eat. Instead she is standing with her goat. I have to watch both the boy and girl with newborn kids because they are not happy with me when I touch the kids. I've had to smack the male once because he was all over me making his funny noises.
So basically with all my yacking lol what I'm trying to say is I would go for a llama even if they haven't been around goats. Keep a eye on them and if they don't work out you could always sell them


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## ThreeHavens

Trickyroo said:


> Oh no !!! How scary for you Danielle !!!!! Did you see one or hear about one from a neighbor ? That really is so scary !!
> I have no advice to offer on Llamas , but i do know Karen raised them , so if no one else can tell you about wether or not to keep one or two , i know she can  Good luck on whatever you choose !
> You must share pictures you know


Our neighbor told us he saw one right by the bucks' fence.    NOT okay. I am a person who loves all animals but I cannot risk my bucks; they are my babies. Right now we're keeping the outside lights on, but I am on edge.



ksalvagno said:


> If you get a young llama, you won't know if it will guard. They should be 3 or older and proven.


Thank you! Good to know.



Jessica84 said:


> I have alpacas. They have never been around goats till I got them. I don't know if I 100% trust that they would really protect the goats because as Karen said they are not very big. BUT I have watched them and they are freaky animals. They always have to check things out. They put their head down and kinda stock what is new to them. For my puppy that freaks her out lol. I think they also have a smell to them because the horses will freak out without even seeing them. They both, male and female like small things. My puppy was chasing a duck and the duck went into the males pen. He made a god awful noise and when the puppy got close to the fence he spit on her. The female LOVES baby goats. I have a goat in labor right now and she refuses to eat. Instead she is standing with her goat. I have to watch both the boy and girl with newborn kids because they are not happy with me when I touch the kids. I've had to smack the male once because he was all over me making his funny noises.
> So basically with all my yacking lol what I'm trying to say is I would go for a llama even if they haven't been around goats. Keep a eye on them and if they don't work out you could always sell them
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


Awesome! The person we're considering purchasing a llama from actually offers a satisfaction guarantee ... so we would let the llama settle and see if it was a fit.

How expensive are they to feed?


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## ksalvagno

Not too bad. Need mainly hay. Doesn't need to be given much feed. Just need to watch the goat minerals because they are like sheep about copper.


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## ThreeHavens

So I could offer a sheep mineral and copper bolus the bucks? Would that keep the llama safe?

Would you say a llama eats as much hay as a horse, or less?


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## ksalvagno

Definitely less than a horse. Can't remember exactly how much. Yes the sheep mineral would be fine. You want a gelded male for the llama. A female will work too but the geldings are best.


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## goathiker

This one I know...They eat about the same amount as a full sized goat wether, 4 to 6 lbs of hay a day.


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## ThreeHavens

Oh great! So they aren't that expensive to maintain. That is awesome. I think it's going to happen ... Sitting here wondering whether that coyote is eyeing my precious boys is too much for me. Aside from the fact that they are my babies, on a practical note that is over $1,000 dollars of high quality breeding stock back there. 

They are within eyeshot and earshot and right up next to the horses. Should I move them back to the pen out front? I hate to do it because the pen up front is smaller and they seem less happy in it. They're so healthy and happy back in the pasture...


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## kccjer

No leave them where they are. Just be ready with your camera to film the horses....it is hilarious! The horses will get use to them. Mine coexist quite well


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## ThreeHavens

We may not be able to get one for a few months at least. I was thinking should I move the bucks up until I do get one ... but for now back there the steps I'm taking are to put them in a smaller (more secure) pen at night, next to the horses, with a large barn light shining near their pen. We ordered coyote deterrent lights.


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## goathiker

You can get wolf pee from Sporting Goods stores too. It really does help keep them away. Just mark a couple drops around your pens on things that a dog would mark. The coyotes will think it is wolf territory.


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## ThreeHavens

Thanks, Jill, we'll do that. Do you think it would be wise of us to get a guardian llama?


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## Jessica84

Oh my goodness I swear by that wolf pee. Everyone calls me crazy but it works.



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## kmarar

A wild caught horse or mustang are perfect guards. Pet dogs should be wary.


I do cheap commissioned hand drawings of pets (especially goats!) check out my site kennamarar.wix.com/creativecommissions


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## ThreeHavens

If I was to get a guard I think I'd go with llama ... not sure I would want another dog (and in my area the barking would be problematic) and feeding another horse would be more expensive than feeding a llama, I believe. But thank you, kmarar!


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## kmarar

Not a problem  we have llamas but they're not the guarding type, make sure that if you go with a llama it has the right kind of personality to protect your livestock. Intact males usually keep that aggressiveness to keep away predators. And make sure any Horned goats don't beat on the llama. They can cause internal bleeding quite easily.


I do cheap commissioned hand drawings of pets (especially goats!) check out my site kennamarar.wix.com/creativecommissions


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## ThreeHavens

Thanks for the forewarning! The person I'm interested in buying from offers a satisfaction guarantee ... if the llama is not a guarding type I will probably trade it in.  Only reason I wouldn't do an intact male is I've heard they can crush goats trying to breed them ... but I'll probably still get a male - just neutered. 

I like your avatar btw.  Very cute.


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## kmarar

I've never heard that before, hah those poor goats. Our intact llama was never interested in our does in heat but it would have been an interesting sight. 

And thank you! It's a drawing I did of my boer wether 


I do cheap commissioned hand drawings of pets (especially goats!) check out my site kennamarar.wix.com/creativecommissions


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## ThreeHavens

Since I have minis, being crushed is probably more of a concern, lol!


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## Jessica84

They don't need to be in heat for them to want to mount them. My male is not trust worthy around the goats with out the female to harass after he tried mounting my very heavy bred doe. He's in with the bucks since they are bigger and my one buck and him......'love each other' if you know what I mean. So I wouldn't want a llama who is bigger then a alpaca mounting a mini who is way smaller then my boers 


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## kmarar

Oh gosh that's understandable
My mother was almost mounted by our young male once, she certainly didn't appreciate it hah


I do cheap commissioned hand drawings of pets (especially goats!) check out my site kennamarar.wix.com/creativecommissions


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## ThreeHavens

Ugh, yep wouldn't want that. I was told by the breeder (who is awesome and helpful in answering questions) that you'd want a male who was neutered before he reached sexual maturity, or a female.


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## goathiker

It's great there's a breeder to help you out. I've never actually owned one. We looked into them for hiking and decided the goats were a better choice for us.


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## ThreeHavens

Yes, I emailed him and he's been awesome about putting up with my questions, haha! I just figured having a thread on here for a well-rounded opinion would be good too.


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## goathiker

The big Llama and Alpaca breeder here won't sell you one unless you come take a class on how to handle them. I don't think it's a bad idea really.


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## ThreeHavens

He linked me to articles and videos on handling. It seems like it's fairly similar to handling horses. Of course they're different but maybe horse experience will come in handy...


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## goathiker

It does seem to be much the same, you can't make pets of Llamas though, I mean you could but then they switch gears to a different purpose (I'm told). They are really different from any animal you've ever met. It will be a learning experience and a challenge at times. 

Ask your breeder if a guard Llama trained to cart or pack would lose his guard position, that's what I'm curious about.


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## ThreeHavens

It appears that the majority of his llamas are all handled and like humans, and do fine guarding if they have the right personality.


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## ThreeHavens

I did some reading on wolf's pee - what I read was it isn't always effective if the coyotes know they can get food from a location, and the pee is not always harvested in a humane way. Anyone know if this is true? I hadn't thought about HOW they get the urine.


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## Jessica84

Yes I think that's true. That's why we had to kill the mom and her 2 pups that were getting my kids before I started to use it. I figured it wouldn't take long say if the pups were females to have a whole pack laughing at my pee lol. But my brother did watch one day and my goats were over a hill. He was building a gate and saw a coyote on the other side. He said he stopped looked around (couldn't see my brother he way WAY out there) but then the coyote walked off the other way. So I think it does work.
Now on how to get it I'm not really sure. But I don't think it would be that hard to put a pail by a post and when a male pees on it it ends up in the pail. My dog that I lost claimed one of my feeding buckets as his (yuck) and it always had pee in it till I just threw it away. So I don't see why they would need to do something not so nice to the animal to get the pee.....not to mention I surely wouldn't want to tick a wolf off.


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## ThreeHavens

The rumors I was reading said something about caged animals, but what I read on the website said it is gathered from zoos, resorts ... etc. 

How expensive do you find it? You coat the whole perimeter?


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## Jessica84

Well I do it differently because where I turn my goats out there is no way to spray the whole area. So each day before I turn them out I spray a goat. 
If you to to preditorpee.com it will tell you how to cover a area but I know you don't have to spray the whole place just like 100feet I want to say but don't quote me on that. It also says how long it lasts. But since I put it on a actual animal I just do a spray a day


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## ThreeHavens

Do you have a guardian of some kind, or is the pee good enough?


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## Jessica84

Nope when I turn them out I'm just counting on the pee. I do have the alpacas but they stay in the pen. We have our place in different sections and is just barb wire (cattle ranch) and the goats can go threw but not the alpacas so no point in turning them out if they can't even try to stay with the goats.


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## nannysrus

I don't know llamas but our horses aren't worth crap for running anything off. We have bears and coyotes that come threw and the horses pay absolutely no mind to them. Nothing has ever messed with our goats however nothing is fond of the 5 strand hot wire we have up now either. 




Samantha

"5 minutes of fresh air is equivalent to 5 mg Valium"


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## ThreeHavens

Waiting for the coyote lights to come ... I heard them last night. We let the horses out into the pasture beside the bucks and kept the lights on. Everyone's okay this morning but the horses are worked up.

No. Thank. Youuuu


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## Jessica84

Lol no I bet not. We have a coyote that goes out and is with the horses and cows every night and they don't even care. They just pretend he's not there. But a bear, I always know if we are ridding up on one or where one has been because they start freaking out. But they are only exposed to them during the summer. I'm sure if it was more often they would be better.
But it sounds like your coyotes are about like mine are here. Not really fearful of people but not to aggressive. The ones here have never tried getting into just normal field fencing and I don't lock them up in a building just the pen. I've seen them trot by the pen but have never made more of a move of just looking at them. They don't really like anything that looks like a trap. But I also have full sized goats, I think I read you have minis so they might be more tempting


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## ThreeHavens

Haven't found any within the fence yet, thankfully.


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## TOU

ThreeHavens said:


> He linked me to articles and videos on handling. It seems like it's fairly similar to handling horses. Of course they're different but maybe horse experience will come in handy...


Would you mind please posting these?


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## Patch

We got a 3yr old gelding in Jan 15 and he is great with the goats. He gathers the kids like he is the baby sitter. We have lots of dogs in the area loose and none will come close to our llama.

I highly recommend them!!!

Did you get one?

Ours is very friendly to us and will eat out of our hands, and breath down our back if we are not giving him a little grain, but he is pretty standoffish and extremely cautious. Ours is haulter freindly....if you can get it on him. I was gathering him the other day as I was moving goats to another area not connected so I wanted to haulter him. We got them all into the loading pens with food, but then our llama, from a standstill, hopped....and I mean hopped over the 4' holding/loading pens to get away. He cleared it by a foot. He has never tried to leave the goats or clear any of our fences, but that posed a problem for us. I pick up a feed bucket and he comes right to you, but if you pick up a rope...he keeps a 50' distance. They sure are smart critters.

Our llama does not eat much. He eats mostly browse, but will take a little of the grain if given in a separate bucket. He will not steal from a goat like some other animals.

-Patch


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## Jessica84

My alpaca is the same way with a rope, actually she won't let us touch her but she likes her grain. So I walk with the bucket, place the bucket in the new pen and walk off and shut the gate once she comes in. My male who was a bit more friendly wouldn't like the halter either so I would always just put a rope around his neck and led him. Maybe that would work??
And yes nothing is overly fond of the alpacas here either lol my dogs will bark and run away if they run up to them and the cows and horses run past the goat pen as fast as they can lol


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