# Horns Vs. No Horns-Opinions Please!!DECISIONS ADDED PAGE 4!!



## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

Well as most of you know I am planning on rebuilding my herd this Spring! I am VERY excited and am hoping to make some deposits on a few kids in February/March.

Which brings me to my current delima... Whether to go with horns or no horns?? All of my previous herd were horned except for 3, but this time I will have some registered goats in the mix as well. Scurs really scare me! I have NEVER disbudded or wached someone disbud a goat before... and I have seen some real botch jobs before! So #1 I am scared to disbud kids myself AND I don't know which farms do a good job at disbudding and which ones don't (when looking at who to purchase from). We are going to have about 15 acres fenced for the goats to start off with, and about 4 separate pastures (Buck pen; Open Does pen; bred Does, Does with kids, and Doelings to young to be bred pen; extra pen for rotation or whatever we need it for). We have a total of 50 acres and will be fencing the rest of it in for goats as we go along. So being cramped or anything isn't an issue. IF we did go the horned route, I could always take the kids to the vet to get them disbudded if someone wanted a kid without horns... but I have never seen the goats they have disbudded so I don't know how good of a job they do. ANY opinions would be GREALY appreciated!!

What I really need is your opinions on the matter and why you feel that way, PLEASE! I have also added a poll on here, so if you don't mind please vote as well. Thank you in advance for your advice! This decision has really been weighing on my mind!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I like horns. Reasons:

1. the goat's natural cooling system
2. handle bars for me
3. I like the look of it
4. its natural
5. disbudding really freaks me out
6. angoras and boers must have horns to show

With all that said and done, I am going to take my dairy kids to the vet to get them disbudded, mainly just because I want to show and you cant show them with horns.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

We have Boers and they all have horns, quite dignified. BUT some goats horns grow all different ways..my girls horns have a gentle curve to them.
If you are doing mini breeds I would disbud them, most people dont want horns on their goats for safety & fence reasons. 
Ask your vet if anyone can do it for you & teach you.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I like my horned goaties!

I never offered disbuds til last spring when it was requested first and I WILL NOT EVER DO IT MYSELF!
I took the 2 doelings to Chiefs breeder and he did it for a small fee, which gets passed along inthe price of the kid.
Now, I will have any registered kid sold dis budded IF it will be a "show" goatie, and it is requested.

Regardless though, having horned goats has not been an issue for me, I know how to "respect" the horns and do fencing accordingly, which BTW took a few years to learn..lol
Aggressive girls get custom made bumper guards if they use their heads on others, my bucks are a different story, the ruttis the only issue I have wih them being aggressive with each other.

Besides...having a polled doe help with the dis bud issue because I have the chance of not needin to make that decision.
Keren posted a very good list of reasons as to why keep them horned.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

All of our goats are disbudded and I like it that way. . . . I've never had horned goats. I DO NOT disbud myself though. I pay $5 a kid to get it done by a breeder with 30+ years experience.  She does a great job.

Be careful about a vet disbudding your kids. We've had some terrible experiences with two different vets. One burned the brains of our doe, Fudgie. She got a TERRIBLE infection. We still think it affects her as she's a little "slow." Another vet disbudded a kid and he got an infection from it. I swear they used cattle irons on our little minis.

Best advice is to get another breeder to do it for you (if you even decide to disbud) and maybe if you feel comfortable enough to do it someday, then you can have them show you how.


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## DopeyOpie (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I prefer horns, pretty much for the same reasons Keren listed. It took me so long to find Opie a friend because all the wethers I found for sale were disbudded. Tavi was one of the two I found with horns.


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## DopeyOpie (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*



capriola-nd said:


> Be careful about a vet disbudding your kids. We've had some terrible experiences with two different vets. One burned the brains of our doe, Fudgie. She got a TERRIBLE infection. We still think it affects her as she's a little "slow." Another vet disbudded a kid and he got an infection from it. I swear they used cattle irons on our little minis.


Oh that's terrible, poor baby  :hug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*



> I like horns. Reasons:
> 
> 1. the goat's natural cooling system
> 2. handle bars for me
> ...


 keren is so right ..I totally agree... :thumbup: :greengrin:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I think it really depends on the breed and what you are up to. Brandy and I talked a bit earlier about this on chat and this is what I said and I have a few things to add.

Cons of horns:
- My first 4 goats came to me disbudded. The next 3 I brought in - 1 had horns. Within an hour she was stuck in the fence and being beat to shambles by the others.
- Banding later for what ever reason hurts alot more and alot longer then disbudding as a kid
- Surgical dehorning - NO WAY could you pay me to ever do that - whole in the head, sinus's open, anesthesia ....
- Caught my sanaan/boer (when she was horned) scooping up little kids and chucking them through the air backwards when they would try to come get food. One had a mouth full of grain when she did it and he inhaled it. If I would not have been there - I could have lost him.
- can't show (depending on breed)
- most people with small children definately do not want horned goats for danger reasons
- I personally cant sell a goat period that is horned - no one will purchase them

Pros of horns:
- yes, natural
- natures cooling system
- on some goats - look neat

just my 2 cents

Everything born here is disbudded immediately unless full payment is made before it is time!!!


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

i started out with disbudded only (for 4-H), and then realized...i have a whole bunch of weird looking boers...because they dont have horns! so, when i sell my % this spring, i'm only going to raise horned goats. (i dont mind what 4-H says, my goats arent dangerous (they dont go around spearing people for fun, they arent bloodthirsty) and market kids dont have very big horns by market time.)

But for minis....i'd say it depends if your showing, right? you cant show dairy with horns (i might be mistaken)


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Ditto it keren.

I prefer horns for all those reasons. My Luna who is registered doesn't have horns (disbudded) and her poor little head looks so bare. However, she gets along fine with the others.

I have no problem with disbudded goats, I just prefer natural.


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## Laurel_Haven (Oct 20, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Brandi and I have been discussing this issue, and I actually told her to place this topic to get everyones opinions and reasons behind them&#8230; I thought it would be interesting to see what everyone else thought and why. This is what I pretty much told her in our emails&#8230; Now remember this is my opinion only. Everyone has a different perspective on things, and what works for one is not always a good thing for another.

While I can surely understand why people with "meat breeds" have horned goats and it is totally acceptable, it is the opposite for "dairy breeds". Dairy goats with horns are registerable but they can not be shown in ADGA with horns. Dairy goats are not to have horns plain and simple. It is mainly a safety issue for people and the goats, because dairy goats are used for milking. That is their main purpose. They are handled much more on a daily basis than a meat goat breed would be. 
Because of this&#8230;dairy goats with horns are harder to sell, and are valued $$$ less for the simple fact that dairy goats are not allowed to have horns by the registries standards. 
Now if you do not plan on breeding for show and or milk qualities then I see nothing wrong with having horned goats in your herd. But what I do not like to see is mixed herds of horned and hornless goats. I do not think it is fair to the goats without the horns to have to live and compete with the ones that do. They are at a big disadvantage. Now this is only my honest opinion. And only because I started out with both and had first hand experience with both types. But I quickly sold the horned goats due to a major injury to a hornless junior. From that day on I was a big believer in disbudding, mainly for safety purposes. I was not going to allow the horned goats to injure another defenseless hornless goat or my children. 
Now I am sure there are many that have both "horned and hornless" living merrily together&#8230; for me that was not the case.
So yes, I am a big believer in disbudding&#8230; since they are a domesticated dairy animal and handled regularly for milking. 
While scurs can happen and some breeders do botch the job badly... the key is to do it early. Most do it too late and the horn base becomes wider than the burner being used. When this happens not all living horn cells are burned and the result is scurring. If it is done properly and early enough you will have a good disbudding that won't scur. To be honest, I would rather see horns than bad scurring. That is why I wish more people if they choose to disbud would learn how to do the job more efficiently. As scurring can be dangerous to the goat should it grow back into the skull. So I can understand your dislike of scurs Brandi. Why not ask the breeder you want to buy from what their percentage is of successful disbuddings vs. scurring. (How often do they get scurs on their kids) or tell them right out you want kids that have been disbudded properly as you do not want any type of scurring. While there is no guarantee it may help improve the odds of getting scurs on the kids you buy.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

All my Boers are horned. To me personally they look strange without them. I have heard that they are very difficult to disbud successfully. 
I have one Nubian who was disbudded. Now, who is the Herd Queen? She will get her head between skirmishes like a referee. She bosses others around by either nipping ears or sticking her hard head in their business if she doesnt approve. 
It is true, as LaurelHaven has said, that dairy is always disbudded.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I have a total of three hornless (two disbudded, one polled) amongst about 50 horned goats. My boss doe is the old British Alpine doe, who is disbudded. When she got here, she rolled the old boss Angora doe down the hill, did the same with the big boer wether who was next in line, now all she has to do is look at the other goats and they run. She also nips pretty well too.

I milked a boer doe with horns for a long time, every day. The horns didnt interfere with regular handling.

But I do understand your viewpoint.


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I go with hornless.. for the very reasons Allison listed.


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## lesserweevil (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Well... I guess I have had experience with horned and hornless and bla bla bla even though I only have 4 goats so I'll give you my opinions too =]

hehe

In my opinion, you should either have horned - or hornless. NOT a mixture. I had all disbudded goats until I got Demi - who had horns. I probably COULD have disbudded her, but her horn buds were almost an inch long and I was nervous...

anyway she got very ornery with those horns. She used to put them under the other goats bellies and then jerk her head up, she'd do the same to me under my chin, etc. - and there are tons of wee kids (human) around here, so it wasnt the safest.

I got her surgically dehorned when she was about 7 months old - it worked, but, I would NEVER EVER subject any of my goats to that again. Basically I would say, if you buy a horned goat, keep it horned... or disbud at birth.

My vet disbuds the kids for me and I must say, he does a great job, I havent had a single problem with scurs. (or brain damage)

Then again, I did have a horned buckling called Samwell and he was always sweet with his horns, and I could lead him around like that - but as i say. not the same with every goat...

so either do... or dont... and dont mix, IMHO


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I think the important thing is to discipline them - yes when they have horns, they know they have horns and they know how to use them. They need to be taught that using horns on humans is NOT acceptable behaviour. Fiona, the saanen doeling I bought that is actually my brothers, is bad with her horns, using them on people, but I have been able to correct that behaviour.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

WOW... Thank you all for the quick responses!!! I am still really torn on the situation... Let me explain a little more about what I am planning to start out with for my herd.

I will be putting together a herd of Nigerian Dwarfs only (sorry... I forgot to meantion what breed). I do not plan on showing... (atleast not for the first year or so) all of the shows are usually pretty far from here, and I don't always have someone to go with me. With my last herd I had all horned goats except for 3 that came to me grown and had already been disbudded when they were kids. I do want to try and milk some of my Does this go around, but plan on building a good milking stand that should keep their head where they can't turn and horn me (maybe :shrug: ). I have never sold registered kids before. So I don't really know what the market for them around here is, or how easily I will sell them (but I do plan on giving it a try!). I was in the minis (pygmys and nigerians) for a little over a year, and didn't have any problems selling horned kids (keep in mind they were NOT registered). Most of my kids always had deposits on them within 24-48 hours of being born (there is a really big demand for minis around here, AND for quality mini breeders.... I won't even begin to tell you some of the horror stories I have seen for supposedly "good mini breeders" :sigh: ). So needless to say, I have never had a problem selling my kids (KNOCK ON WOOD! :doh: ).

My views on the horns vs. no horns situation was always the same as Keren and Liz, but now that I am adding registered Nigerians to the mix I thought it would be best to look at my options and come up with a decision before purchasing. The other delima is having a mixed herd of horned and hornless... I plan on ALSO having breeding age unregistered Nigerians in my herd (because this is what I am used to, and would like to start back out with a few). The problem with this is that most all unregistered Nigerians have their horns. I will not have horns surgically removed or try banding them... I just don't like it. I don't fault anyone else for doing it, but for me it just isn't an option. To go the complete opposite of that problem is that I would like to find some breeding age registered Nigerian Does (maybe even some bred ones) also, AND most grown registered Nigerians do not have horns. So in other words I have just got problems all the way around!!! What do you think and what would you do in my situation???

I guess I have two different situations to decide on... First- Do I want my breeding stock to have horns or be disbudded (because them having horns wouldn't really affect the sale of disbudded kids right? Only the resale of the breeding stock themselves, if I decide to sale some of them down the road, assuming that I decide to keep them with horns), AND would it be ok to have disbudded and hornless in the same pasture? Second- Do I disbud all kids or only if requested by the buyer?

And on that subject (disbudding kids), who do I get to disbud them??? There are NO breeders close enough to me for me to pay them to disbud the kids for me. I think that there is a farm close to here (I have purchased a kid from her once in the past) that takes her's to one of the local vets here to get them disbudded.... I guess I could ask her if he is bad about leaving scurs or not :shrug: This vet is supposed to be a good goat vet, but the couple of times I used him when I had Boers I think I knew more about them than he did... (really long story) So I just don't know how well I trust him.

These decisions have REALLY been weighing on my mind (incase you couldn't already tell....), and I really don't know what to do :sigh: Any other thoughts on what I have added here would be greatly appreciated, and once again thank you all for the quick replies and opinions :grouphug: I just can't seem to make up my mind... Hubby thinks that they should have their horns. He had a big goat herd when he was growing up (and when we were dating), and they always had horns. His Great-Grandfather who is 87 years old now was the one who had he goats with him and he was/is pretty old-timey and set in his ways about the way they should be, and of course he passed that stubborness down to his great-grandson (my Husband). So I already know where he stands on the matter, but he supports me in whatever I decide and he knows that the goats are really "my thing" now (he is a real sweetheart in that way  ).

Anyways... I am getting off subject here, and I have started to ramble. Sorry for the extremely long post! Please keep the thoughts and opinions coming! I am soaking up everything and trying my best to come to some sort of decision :sigh: :doh: HELP!!! :help:

Oh and yes.. thank you Allison and Tina for talking with the distressed, undecisive, crazy woman (me!) :ROFL: !!! It would be so much easier if the decision would just hit me!!! (someone hit me, PLEASE!!!! :doh: :help: :ROFL: ) ok... it is TOO early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee yet!


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## dragonfly farms (Oct 4, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

We have only horned goats. I agree that


> 1. the goat's natural cooling system
> 2. handle bars for me
> 3. I like the look of it
> 4. its natural
> ...


The process of dehorning is also something that bothers me quiet a bit. I do not think it is something for a young baby to go thru. (I am also not a fan of tail docing and ear cropping) I just dont think that they are necessary and therefore should not be done unless there is an real problem. We decided that if horns made the difference in someone wanting a goat from us and not, we would rather keep them here.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Well, I think you mentioned having a really nice set-up with different pastures, pens, etc. Soooo, maybe if you could have the horned mature animals separated from the disbudded ones??

I don't like mixing horned with hornless. Big disadvantage on the hornless, as Tina mentioned.

If you plan on selling quality, registered Nigerian Dwarf goats, then your sales will be much better if you disbud (I would think). In our area, I have never had someone ask me to leave a goat horned. If they did ask, I would probably refuse. Too many goats I have seen get their heads stuck in fencing, hay feeders, etc. Just too risky, for us anyways.

I agree that the disbudding process is VERY disturbing to me. Why I refuse to do it again! If you can ask about that vet. The experience we had was just with two vets. The appt. we had made for Fudgie to be disbudded was actually scheduled with a "good goat vet" (a lot of you may know her, Dr. Lauren Acton, she's a BIG time awesome dairy goat breeder). Anywho, Dr. Acton was called to a farm visit and another vet disbudded Fudgie, and did a terrible job. If Dr. Acton would have done it, I'm sure Fudgie would have been just fine. So, just research the vets in your area. It's a shame you don't have a breeder who could do it. :sigh:


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## fcnubian (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

No horns is what we go with. My dairy goats HAVE to be disbudded since I show them, but my pygmys are disbudded to.

I dont want to come home and see a goat dead, being strangled to death because the goat got caught in the fence.

I only have one horned goat here, and thats the Pygmy Buck. I bought him with horns and so far he's kept them to himself and haven't attempted to hit me or anyone else with them.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Thank you! It will probably take a few weeks for me to decide whether I want hornless or horned... I have definitely considered running my Does in two separate pastures to keep the horned away from the hornless, so that may be an option. I am assuming that most of the grown registered Does that I get will already be disbudded, so we can pretty well bet on me having some disbudded goats.... so I am thinking that maybe the registered kids I buy should be disbudded as well, since I am probably going to have atleast SOME hornless goats regardless???

I do have one more question though. I am wanting to use my registered Bucks on my unregistered Does (to help keep good quality in ALL the kids I breed not just the registered ones :greengrin: ). So if I had registered Bucks with no horns do you think it would hurt to breed them with the unregistered Does that have horns?? I usually try to leave a Buck in with the girls I am wanting him to breed for about a month, and monitor them for when they come into heat. Do you think it would be a problem?? This is another one of my major issues because I want to have two nice registered Bucks, and that's it. I don't want to have an unregistered Buck. Once again any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!!!


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I don't think that would be a problem. In most cases, the buck is the "king" (or at least our case he is) and I doubt the does would really hurt him. . . . but you never know.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Thanks! That has always been the case in my past herds as well. I ran a few disbudded goats with my horned ones last year and didn't have a problem... so hopefully I won't have a problem running a hornless Buck with horned Does :shrug:


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## fcnubian (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Brandi, if you do that, watch and make sure the does don't gang up on him. My mom's boyfriend has 3 togg does with horns that killed a buck.

I doubt you would have a problem if its one on one, or if the buck is big enough and rules the pen. Just something to keep in mind and watch for though.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I think in your case, since you are wondering about the possibility of maybe producing reg'd show kids in the future, then I would plan on disbudding, take them to your vet. I will be doing the same with my dairy kids when they arrive in August - for the simple reason that it will keep my options open.

As for the adult does, either option would suit me personally, either horned unreg'd does or disbudded reg'd does. As I have said, I havent had too many problems running horned with unhorned. But maybe you are better off with the reg'd does, as I said it will keep more of those options open to you, in case you do want to breed reg'd stock.


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## ArcticGoats (Jun 9, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Its probably not fair, being a cashmere person to weigh in on this, as I/we obviously like horns and I agree with others, the goats look kind of weird without horns! But, we (DH and I) have observed one interesting thing about our little horned goats - they know exactly what they are doing with them! They hook each other but have been extremely careful around us and have gone out of their way to avoid catching us. Now, we are new to goats this year and lack in lots of experience, and I'm sure accidents happen but they seem to want to avoid accidents as much as we do. It could be a whole different story if they want to get you or are not well socialized and it is something to be aware of - but anyway, we feel the safety issue is minor...

oh yeah, p.s. we have electric around our fence so that has not been an issue (yet??)


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## Victoria (Dec 20, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I love horns!! I love everything about them..but Nigerian scan't be shown with them, so I dehorn. Actually I have my vet do it, sedated...I do dehorn my friends goats, and it is scary..You have to have a steady hand, and know what you are doing. Out of a dozen last year, I only had one scur..If you do dehorn, burn , then do another copper ring forward and toward the center, that is where the scurs grow from. I did all of my friends that way and only had one scur..not bad..and they all looked good..
We had a vet do a little Pygmy and really screwed up that luittle goat..The iron slipped and went from his horn to his eye!! 
Jack (the goat) is doing great now..we did a skin graf on his eye..
But I agree w/ Olivia, have an experienced breeder, OR and experienced vet do your horns if you do them..
And that's my 2 cents :shades:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I had already voted and put in my 2 cents worth BUT so many think that horns hurt others, and if you have experienced that, I am so sorry. I guess it's because I do have horned mini's and as I mentioned before, the only ones I will have disbudded are the registered, unless a new owner requests it to be done and they give me a deposit, Goats without horns just don't look right to me, and if any one has seen my goaties, I think they all look beautiful with those regal horns. As far as goats getting killed because they get entangled in fencing, well....it's an unneccessary demise as when having horned goats it is neccessary to have the appropriate fencing. NONE of my goats have ever been aggressive towards people with their horns and I teach prospective buyers to respect the fact that the goat does have horns.

As far as milking a horned goat, I don't see a problem with that either, just because you handle the other end of the goat daily the horns should not be an issue, it's basically the same as doing any other maintenance on the goat, don't have your head or face close enough to the horns so if there is an upset, the goat won't get you, it's sort of the same thing as why you don't allow children to play in the street, duh...the traffic that "might" come by at any given moment...horned goat could get spooked by anything therefore you don't have your head near the goats head. As far as aggression with other goats, as mentioned, I have less painful remedies for that one.
I am lucky enoufgh to have a breeder nearby that will disbud kids if needed, and all registered kids will be disbudded just because thats the way they are shown/wanted

Sorry again...I had to defend my goaties :wink:


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I have dairy goats and with dairy goats(and because they have really bad attitudes towards each other) I really have to disbud them because I cannot afford a torn up udder from a disgruntled herd mate(I've seen it with the boers). Its easier to deal with it when they are kids then it is having them surgically removed. Not to mention, with dairy goats(I'm not sure about minis) their horns grow strait up out of their head which poses more of a risk for people and other goats. The boers horns grow back and curl around their head so its not as much of a risk. I do like horns on the meat goats though 

For anybody who wants a reference on how surgical dehorning is done, I did take pics when I had the horn like scurs removed off my wether for reference(warning very graphic) http://www.sandylanedairygoats.com/dehorning.htm


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Thank you everyone!

Liz- When I had horned goats I didn't have any problems either... I had thought about maybe figuring out some way to put rubber ends on their horns with a rubber bar going across the horns (to prevent one from catching anothers leg in between them and breaking it), even though I never had problems before I guess there is always that possiblity. All of my unregistered Nigies will be horned I am sure, and my registered ones will probably be disbudded (because most all grown ones you find were disbudded as kids). Any goats being sold with papers will be offered as disbudded. I will just have to figure out someone to get to do it or try to learn to do it myself :help: I have always liked horns, but since I am hoping to sell some very good quality registered kids they will need to be disbudded if they go with papers so the owners always have the option to show them. I think this probably the best decision... what do you think??

BTW, I LOVE your goats and their horns :greengrin:

Oh, and I don't know if everyone saw it or not, but I am getting a Doeling back that I sold last summer.... long story and it is all explained in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6473

Thanks everyone! And you are more than welcome to keep the opinions coming! I still have about a month and a half before I place deposits on my first registered nigies (hopefully!) :greengrin:


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## farmgirl (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I think that Keren hit the nail on the head as for my opinion. 
However... Have you seen my sis' pictures of Opie and on top of it that goat is a terror! For him it would likely be safer on us and anything, including his pen etc., if he did not have horns. All of the other goats we have had and Taavi do have horns though that have never been a problem.
I can see why you would not want to mix goats with horns and ones without, or at least the males, but our friends have both horned and dehorned does in their dairy, in the same pen without any problem, all of their bucks have horns though.
I would personally be afraid to disbud any goats I had and have heard too many horror stories about it to want it for my goats, but I suppose if you really know what you are doing there is no problem.
Good luck on making your decission :greengrin:


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Let me just say first I LOVE LOVE LOVE how we can have differing opinions on would could be such a HOT BUTTON issue and all be very polite and kind about it! You have NO IDEA how rare that is on a forum. I love thegoatspot!



Also wanted to add I'd NEVER put an unhorned buck with a horned buck. Buckly, our buck, has big gorgeous horns, and while he never used them in aggression to our other goats or me, he sure can swing them babies around and against things! Just something I wouldn't risk.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Yes, everyone has done very well on this topic! :thumb:

I was meaning both of my Bucks would be disbudded, they would just be breeding some Does that have their horns. I would NEVER run a horned buck with a unhorned buck, never ever :greengrin:

Also, one thing I missed earlier, the getting their heads hung in the fence thing is not an issue. The wire we purchased has small rectangular squares, no way could even one of the babies get their heads through it much less a full grown Doe or Buck :greengrin: So the getting stuck in the fence part is not an issue :thumb:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

This has been a very interesting thread.

Sarah, I read your dehorning thread about gus and thought I might put in my two bob.

We've dehorned three ourselves at home. They were done out of neccesity (they were boers) because they had broken the horn and it was dangling, and they kept banging it on things and making it bleed again. You could tell it was really painful.

We give a dose of rompun and begin when the goat is dopey but still managing to stay on its feet. One person holds the goat and the horn steady, the other person uses embryotome wire (I believe you call it wire saw) to remove the horn. We havent had a problem with too much bleeding, we simply put mulesing and flystrike powder on the wound, and within 30 seconds the squirting blood has slowed to an ooze, it might ooze for an hour until it completely stops. The animals have all been up on their feet picking at grass 20 minutes or so after the operation.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

See I think just giving the rompun would be good enough for putting the goat under but my vet wanted to be sure that he wasn't going to wake up during the procedure(she's not a goat vet but she does good with them) so she gave him atrapine(sp?) and local nerve blocks in his face along with the rompun, then a reverser shot after it was all done. It took Gus probably 2 hours to wake up and get back to normal.

The first time I had to deal with the dehorning(a deceased buckling named Caesar) the vet never gave him a reverser shot and he didn't wake up for almost 4 hours and was 'drunk' for another 2 hours after that.

That doesn't sound too bad how you did it though


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

the way I see it is:

if you like the horned goats and most will be for pets stick with horned.

If you get a couple does who are disbudded see how they handle themselves with the horned goats and then decide if you need a separate pen for them (you probably wont).

If you have a buyer who wants to show (the benefits of getting registered) then you will need to get the kids disbudded. Make a large note on your site that all kids who are not reserved by 1 week old to be disbudded will have horns due to the chances of scurs. (some say 2 weeks, so decide for yourself or per goat basis).

To me this isnt a matter of what I like verse what someone else likes but trying to help you with a decision that will best fit your needs.

(I accidentally voted for the disbudded/hornless)


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Sarah, no it really wasnt all that bad.

It has taken us a while and a little experimenting but we have gotten good with the rompun now, we do not have to give a reverser shot and they are sometimes back to normal as quickly as ten minutes.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*



StaceyRoop said:


> the way I see it is:
> 
> if you like the horned goats and most will be for pets stick with horned.
> 
> ...


 Do you think I should get my Bucks disbudded??? They will be registered... What do you think?? The only problem with NOT getting the Bucks disbudded is if I purchase a Buck/Buckling that is over a week old then it will probably already be disbudded. So do I need to anticipate that and have the ones I put a deposit on when they are first born be disbudded? (I want to keep two Bucks, so I can retain kids from one Sire and breed them to the other Buck when they are old enough)


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

I think I would disbud the bucks only because you cannot guarantee that your buck will always be well behaved. It would be more of a matter of safety for yourself, not to mention if and when you decide to sell your bucks, I don't doubt that it would be easier to sell a disbudded than it would to sell a horned one.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*



goathappy said:


> I think I would disbud the bucks only because you cannot guarantee that your buck will always be well behaved. It would be more of a matter of safety for yourself, not to mention if and when you decide to sell your bucks, I don't doubt that it would be easier to sell a disbudded than it would to sell a horned one.


 That is what I was thinking... I think that is what I will do :greengrin:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Sarah,

The Atropine is to help with mucos and spit so that the animal does not choke on it and die while under anesthesia or waking from. I would give it to all of my surgical animals if they were drooling alot. Atropine and nerve blockers will not intensify the effects of the Rompin.

It almost sounds like your goat had a sensitivity to the anesthesia or they gave him a higher doseage.

I am glad that he is ok now and back to normal!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

bucks:

You may not want to think of this now but later on you may realize that the buck you have isnt needed on your place anymore due to wanting a new buck/needing new bloodlines because you have to many of his daughters etc. Well selling an adult buck who is registered with horns would be much more difficult then an adult buck registered who is disbudded.

So for bucks you purchase and bucklings you keep.....I suggest disbudding


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

:thumb: That's what I was thinking. Thank ya'll for the help!


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## grandmajo (Oct 14, 2008)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Well, I'm a bit late getting to this, but I've had a big buck in the past with horns and young boys at home. In rut, he was aggressive towards my boys with his horns, but not to me. I could see where he could have really hurt a child, and so I would not have another buck with horns. I have 1 doe with horns right now, and the other 2 don't have them. She's a bossy, mean thing, and she is penned with the buck right now, because she's so mean with her horns to my other 2 girls. So, I will definitely not ever mix horned and unhorned again.


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## creaturesall (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

Well, I've just got the 3 ladies but since I followed the good advice of folks on TGS, I wouldn't want them any other way than with the horns they have . . . for all those same reasons Keren mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I had trouble with a bully goat too who used her horns to try and hurt the others. 
*What was that great advice my friends on TGS gave?*








Now nobody gets hurt and they all look  so darn cute!


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## Laurel_Haven (Oct 20, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

:ROFL: I just love that picture! :ROFL:

I have found this post to be very interesting in the way peoples opinions differ so much... There is reasons why we feel they should have horns and why we feel they are best without them. We all love our goats with or without horns that seems mutual. This forum is great in that we can agree to disagree and that is fine. You can learn so much this way. :grouphug:


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## lesserweevil (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

definitely , and everyone always will have differing opinions - if they didnt, the world would be very boring!

As I said earlier, I think, the only reason I got Demi dehorned (surgically) was that she was ornery and with the young children etc. she was becoming a danger - and I didnt want her to have to die or something from having hurt a little child - or me, for instance =]. And I am definitely one of those who would say NEVER AGAIN re dehorning!!!

But disbudding is something I go through with - thinking of Demi and her situation. Although I HAVE known goats to be totally fine with horns - like Samwell - so I agree at the same time with those who think they should keep them!!! :shrug:

so basically... personal preference


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Horns Vs. No Horns- Opinions Please!!*

LOL!!!! :slapfloor: That pic is too cute!!! I will have to keep that in mind if any of my horned ones get out of line! :slapfloor:

And yes Tina, you are right! It is VERY nice to have a debate like this where everyone understands that everyone has their own opinions and preferences :wink: As for me... I guess I am kind of stuck in between the two LOL! But I think I have come to a decision on what to do about my new herd... so here it is! Please let me know what ya'll think of my decision, whether it be for or against I would really like to hear it because nothing is written in stone :wink:

Since I want both of my Bucks to be registered (and since one of the Bucklings I am looking at is a few months old and is already disbudded) they will be disbudded. This way (as Stacey meantioned) if I decide to buy a new Buck down the road that is disbudded I won't have to worry about placing him in with my Bucks because they will also be disbudded. AND with them being registered, it will make it a little easier to sale/trade them when the time comes (although that will hopefully be a couple years down the road since I am going to have two.... but you never know!). So registered Bucks/Bucklings I purchase will be disbudded.

As far as the registered girls go... most of my registered girls will be disbudded because I am hoping to buy some grown Does that are possibly bred. Therefore if I purchase any Doelings they will be disbudded (to help with resale and to match the other registered Does) unless I don't trust the breeder to do the disbudding... in which case they will remained horned. But I the breeders I plan on buying kids from I trust COMPLETELY so I have no problem purchasing a disbudded Doeling from them :wink: So registered Does/Doelings will be disbudded unless I think it is best to leave them with horns.

For any unregistered Does that I might get.... I don't expect to have that many unregistered Does to start off with simply because they are REALLY hard to find around here, and the people I sold my last unregistered stock too are not letting them go anytime soon. However, as most of you have already read, I do have one little Doeling coming back that is unregistered and has her horns, which is not a problem to me. (honestly I prefer them with horns, but since I am going to have alot of registered stock this time the registered ones will be disbudded) So most any unregistered Does/Doelings I get will have their horns, and any born here on my farm will be left with horns.

As far as placing horned with hornless/disbudded goes... I have VERY large pastures for my goats, so I don't think that having them in together will be a problem. However, if I do see that it has become a problem I have plenty of space to put them in separate pastures if necessary. There will be NO HORNED Bucks here, so there is not a risk of running a horned Buck with a hornless/disbudded Buck. So the horned and hornless/disbudded Does/Doelings will be placed together unless it becomes a problem at which time they will be separated.

As far as the registered kids I have born.... I will either find someone (if possible) that I trust to do the disbudding or I will learn to do it myself. As Stacey suggested, I will have a note on my website stating that ANY goats not requested disbudded before they are 7 days old will have their horns due to the risk of scurs. I am hoping that this will not be a problem, since I have never had a problem selling my kids before... If it does become an issue though I can always change my policy, and start disbudding all registered kids. This issue really isn't a major one right now, because it will be ATLEAST 4 months before I have any kids born here (and that would only be if I bought a Doe that was already bred), so I have plenty of time to decide.

So what do you think of the decisions I have made?? I haven't decided if I will disbud the Doelings I retain or not... but as I said I have plenty of time to decide on that. I welcome any and all of your opinions on this!! And thanks again everyone for all of the helpful advice!! :grouphug:


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## Epona142 (May 26, 2008)

What a well thought out decision. I have no doubt you'll do great. :thumb:


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## goatheaven (Oct 18, 2007)

Well when we started our farm, we started with unregistered pygmies and they had horns. We took them to the vet to disbud at 5 weeks and it was absolutely horrible. I would never do that again. Over the years we had registered and unregistered Pygmies, Nigerians, Nubians, Saanens, Fainting Goats, and Kinders. Some of our goats were polled, some disbudded and some horned. In 10 years, we never had problems with horns or goats beating each other up. We only had one goat get her head stuck and we put tennis balls on her head to stop that. Horns were not an issue if goats were being aggressive. I would have a polled or dehorned goat be just as mean to a horned goat. All of that depends on their rank in the herd mostly. Most of my dehorned goats have some type of scur it seems. Even great breeders who we bought from there are scurs. I wonder if dairy goats shouldn't have horns then why wouldn't they be born that way. I know most people disbud. I just could not imagine doing it! I would be very scared. The disbudded kids we had here had scabs on their heads that had to heal and I was scared it would get infected. Catching my polled and disbudded goats and holding them for hoof trimmings and worming are also more difficult I think. So for me I got polled goats when I didn't want horns on a buck. Hope you decide. Seems like you have plenty of land. I admire people who have the courage to disbud, I just could never do it! Good luck with your decision. Luckily for us now we are retired and just keep the remaining 23 here for pets with no bucks so everyone is together Saanens, Nubian, Pygmy, Kinder and Nigerians!


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