# Doe has become unstable



## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

Hey All

So I have a young Boer Doe, she kidded in May...everything went fine...

I have been keeping an eye on her, over the last few days I have noticed that she has gotten really weak in the legs...

She needs help getting up...and I just had to lift her. One of my kids went to check her, and she wants to leave her stall...but tripped and fell on her way out..

Her hind legs were useless...Had to prop her up on her front legs, then get behind her and lift her backside and set her on her legs...

They are weak...but can can walk...slow...

She also sways side to side when she wants to move...

She is not enormous, so I am expecting her kids will be smaller like earlier this year.

I just haven't come across anything like this in my reading...Was wondering if this is normal...I mean her hind legs will tangle behind her and almost seem as if they are paralyzed...

Oh and the whole tail area blew up like a balloon when she went down...but once up...it seems fine. I can pretty much touch my fingers when checking her tail...

Babies are dropping...

No signs of water breaking...

I have no problem reaching in and helping get one out if needed (did that last year with my old nubian)...I don't think she could use the ramp if she needed to re-position...she's just too shaky...

And no...no vets close to make house calls...I am the "mid-wife" here...and unofficial vet-tech...

She hasn't had a great appetite for a week now...

Minimal discharge...very very puffy...

Any ideas???

Thanks

Christine


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

So, she just started this suddenly? I wonder if the babies are on a nerve....

Have you taken her temp? Is she peeing/pooping well?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Do you have whitetail deer? Sounds like Meningeal Worm.

You need to start her immediately on Safeguard liquid at 1cc per 7 lbs and over guess her weight. If you under dose this it won't help.

You also need to do a shot of Ivomec or Ivomec Plus injected at 1cc per 40 lbs.

This needs to be done like yesterday if you want to save her.


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks...No we don't have white tail deer here...but we do have deer...I only have Ivermectin and Exodus wormers...Stopped using safeguard as it wasn't effective on some of my goats...so I switched...

And the deer haven't been in our pasture since we burned...and we got our Guard Donkey which was before the burn in spring...and even if they have been in the back part...none of the goats have been out on that side since the grass died out and it snowed...only the donkey goes out there on patrol.

While I was out there feeding the herd...something else hit me...and now I feel like a dolt!

a few days ago my herd queen rammed Peppa something awful...right in the midsection...into a wall...

Just out of no where...slammed her so hard into a wall...legs went right out from under her...and she was slow getting up...she's been wobbling since then...

So maybe with the loose ligaments and such...and that hit...a nerve could more likely be the culprit?

She is peeing and pooping ok...frequently...and sustains the "am I done?" squat after she pees...her stool looks real good too...her color is real good too.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I hate when they act like that!

Is she eating at all? Drinking?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

she could Hypocalcemic..



> Hypocalcemia ("Milk Fever") is not really a fever at all but a calcium imbalance in the doe's body. The mis-naming of this illness often causes confusion. If a doe is going to become hypocalcemic, it will occur around kidding time. She will become uninterested in eating (go off-feed), may be mildly bloated or constipated, have a cold dry mouth, has difficulty walking and/or rising from a sitting position, have sub-normal body temperature (sub-normal), have cold rear legs and drag them, and may have weak labor contractions. Sometimes the only symptom is hind-leg dragging. Rear body parts feel cold to the touch. If the doe cannot get up, set her upright on her sternum and pull her head to one side; this position should reduce the chance of aspirating rumen contents into her lungs that may result from bloating.
> 
> Hypocalcemia is a complex process involving hormonal changes that occur as the doe's body mobilizes calcium in the production of milk. Feeds rich in calcium, as well as alfalfa and peanut (legume) hay, are believed to be the culprits. These products contain calcium in excess of what the doe needs at kidding time. This excess calcium sets off a chain reaction, causing calcium to be deposited in the doe's bones when her body needs to be releasing it from the bones for milk production. Hypocalcemia is a failure of the body's system to properly mobilize calcium. It is not a deficiency of calcium reserves.
> 
> ...


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

She has been wanting hay more than feed...

Feed is rehydrated alfalfa with cracked corn...she often doesn't finish it either...wants the hay instead...

I go ahead and check her for some of the other signs of Hypocalcemia...and see if that fits...

She is getting to her water...noticed this morning that she even broke through the thin layer of ice that formed to get to it...

Should I go ahead and treat her for it regardless? Would it hurt? Won't be able to get anything until tomorrow...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would be getting some dexamethasone and get that into her. If she has swelling in her spine that would be bad.


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

I went and checked on her...She has been moving around and her water is lower...looks like she ate more hay.

Checked her gums and eyes for paleness...looks ok.

Checked her backside...goo...getting whitish and thick...

Her breathing is a little labored...no contractions...

Legs feel warm...hard to tell at first its pretty darn cold out but definitely warm...

She has a nice bed she is laying in and stretching out some...I used wood shavings this year...and she loves it...nice thick bed of it...

She's a bit of a nervous goat, but enjoying being scratched and talked to...so not like her mother (not looking forward to handling her when she is ready to kid...so aggressive)...

Anyway...hopefully tomorrow will be the day...

Thanks for everything...

Christine


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

It wont hurt to treat for Hypocalcemia, I would go ahead, just in case...how far along is she?


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

Figured I would update.

She hasn't kidded yet...its taking forever...

Anyway...After isolating her for a few days, she started getting stronger and better. So I do think it was injury...

She was getting around, and wanting to come out of the stall. So I would bring her out and let her eat with the herd if she wanted, hang out in the sun, etc...

Had to stay with her when she was out, she is at the bottom of the herd, has always been...and her mother Ruthie...is awful when preggo...Bullies everyone, and tried bullying Peppa...Not having any of that...

This morning, she couldn't get up on her own...so we helped her up...The babies are dropping some...and now she cant control her back legs...Another reason I am thinking she got injured. 

She was much stronger yesterday. I had her out, she was walking around. Shaky and careful, especially with her rear left leg...Seems like she took the hit in that hip rather than her mid-section...which is entirely possible. That leg just didn't seem quite right when she walked...

So for now, we are going to check her every hour...

Thanks for everything

Christine


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would begin Hypoglycemic treatment...sound like the babies are taking from her and she needs the extra help..add alfalfa to her diet as well as a souce of calcium...Daily B complex as a support...
If she is far enough along where babies will thrive if born, you might consider inducing if she gets worse...


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

The interesting thing is, she had actually stopped eating her alfalfa/grain mix for a few days. Once I got her up and started taking her out again, she wanted it back...gave her some this morning and she was scooping it up vigorously...

I do have a good B complex...will give her that too...

And yes, I have been considering that I may have to induce her...trick is...finding the right stuff to do that with...will check the stores I have close to see if they have anything...

I believe I would have to get my hands on Lutalyse???


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes you will need Lut....I think Dex will also do th ejob...But not sure..willneed to look into that...
I would offer her Alflafa Hay as well...whengoats get heavy bred, they dont have a lot of room for food....so they naturally will choose hay over grain..if you offer her a quality hay/alfalfa mix maybe more alfalfa then grass hay..and keep the grain offered but dont panic if she doesnt eat much of it...


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

UPDATE

So, Tuesday, my Lamancha Mitzi kidded and had triplets again...all doing great...

Today, my Boer/Nubian Pinkie looked like she was going, so I put her in with Peppa...had no where else to put her...

Have been helping Peppa all week...giving her extra nutrients...

Well...between 3pm and 3:30 Pinkie delivered twin girls...Peppa helped her to clean the first born...

And FINALLY...she went into labor...

TRIPLETS!!!!

I had to drop my twins off at basketball practice, so my oldest ended up delivering them...well helping with delivery...Peppa needed help...

2 boys and a girl...the girl was last and very small...legs are weak...

1st boy, had to be helped out...his one rear leg is weak...it often goes out behind him...

2nd boy...bigger than the other 2...and VERY strong...

Both momma's were helping each other cleaning them off...and Pinkie was even feeding both boys...

My problem is...Peppa's milk didn't come in...Is it possible that it will...I can't remember from all my reading...

Fortunately I stored some colostrum and plenty of milk...so getting that warmed up and headed out to feed the them...


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Sounds like everyone needs selenium.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would agree with selenium VIt E gel....

Sometimes they dont look like they have much milk..but have plenty of colostrum for the babies...I had one mom get her "milk" a few days later, full force. but had plenty of colostrum for them..keep an eye on babies be sure their tummies are flat but firm, not sunken : ) you want them drinking from mom not the other since they need fresh colostrum...its neat that they are helping eachother with the babies...

Congrats!!! sounds like a housefull!!


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks guys

Her bag had nearly nothing...I was able to get a thick bit of colostrum out of her...which was more like paste...I know its supposed to be thick...but I haven't seen it this thick...

I did get some from Pinkie...which I gave them...but yes...did give them some of the stored...didn't have all that much to begin with...Its cold and we can't get the heat lamp to work...that's a long story...so I wanted them to have something warm in their tummy's...

The strong boy sneaks on to Pinkie when one of her girls gets off...

I still have to pick Peppa up...and they are all bumping her...but getting next to nothing...Her bag is flaccid...there was a little bit there...but she can't stand too long...

Her one hind leg keeps tripping her up...

Pinkie's bag is 2x's as big as last season and quite full...very firm but not hard...so I am figuring I may need to take some from her until Peppa fills up...

Peppa had a lot of milk last season...so I am hoping that it comes in...

Very concerned that she isn't passing all the after birth...so will grab some vit c tomorrow...forgot to get it when I went to town this week...

Yes...a houseful...3 goats and 8 babies...was not expecting triplets from Peppa...Mitzi gave us triplets last season, so I expected it. Pinkie had 1 last season...and Peppa had 2 last season...so that was really unexpected...

Still have a few more does to go...one of which gave us triplets last season...but she doesn't look so big...and she is old...my other boer...she's big...this will be her 3rd time so I am hoping only twins...

Then I have 3 of 4 who will be going in the coming months as well...

I must be crazy...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

When colostrum is that thick I will mix some goats milk with it to help it flow better and feed with a bottle...
For Pippas leg..does it seem weak or like a pinch nerve? I would mix up electrolytes to encourage more fluid intake, which will help with milk as well...and has a bit of Pick me up...Nutra drench and B complex would help her as well..
I would get her some Selenium Vit E gel or BoSe..this could help her loose the placenta and her milk drop...Most Tractor supply carry the gel..BoSe is RX and would work faster...

Homemade Electrolytes

A half gallon of hot water
2-6 Tablespoons of Unsulphured Blackstrap Molasses or what you have on hand or honey
1-2 Tablespoons of Either Sea Salt, Epsom Salt, Baking Soda or Table Salt.
1 cup of Apple Cider Vinegar


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

Well all the stores around here that I have to choose from - 2 - TS and Sissons...NO go on the selenium vit e...none of it...

So I had to get crafty...

I did find a couple of products to help...and had to make some of my own...

Peppa will NOT take the electrolyte mixture...Pinkie LOVED it...

I did get a uterine bolus...woman at sissons suggested it...So gave it a go...

Will have to flush her out if it doesn't work...

Got her taking some vit c...she is awfully picky...

Pinkie will allow 2 of the triplets to nurse off her...but the one boy...she will not...how odd...

Keep trying to check that rear leg on Peppa...

Its hard to say...she can't support her own weight for long...but certainly longer now that she kidded..but if she gets off balance...she will go down...however she will struggle to keep from going down on a kid...hers or Pinkie's...That one leg is just so weak and almost floppy...


I am thinking I may try tomorrow since everyone is home...to switch Peppa and Mitzi...Pinkie can be a bully...and even tho Mitzi is smaller she can hold her own with Pinkie....and they are close...

But then there is no supplementing for the babies on Pinkie...

I just have this gut feeling that Peppa isn't going to get too much better...she isn't eating too much...I am trying everything I can with her...Also think I should start her on antibiotics since I can't get the last of the after birth out...

Still trying to find a local vet...not much luck there...It really amazes me because there are SO many people around here with livestock...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would def. Find a vet...


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm a tryin...

There are some that just do horses...close by...but don't touch goats or cattle...ugh...and my donkey is just fine...

And this would have to be a house call...so that REALLY narrows the options...


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Where are you located? There's a thread in the pack goat section with names of vets who will treat goats.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im sorry if you already asnwered this..but have you found a Calcium Drench? TUMS...anything to get calcium in her...If she wont drink the electros, try just warm water with either molasses or honey to sweeten it a bit...offer her alfalfa hay or pellets..
If she eating at all?? Drinking plain water?? Have you taken her temp?


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Call your local agricultural extension and or veterinary school, they WILL be able to locate a vet for you.

She sounds hypoglycemic and low calcium. She needs Calcium and energy now if she is too make it. CMPK injection is best for calcium, drench second best, tums crushed and dissolved and drenched third best. For the enegry, propolyne glycol mixed with a little molasses so she tastes it is best, karo syrup or honey or even brown sugar dissolved slightly are next best. You also need to ge thiamine in her...if you don't have straight thiamine, give fortified or high level B complex....a lot of it. you want 500mg per 100 lbs. She and the kids also need selenium with vitamin E so they can uptake it. The Bo-Se shot is best, gel second best...but if you can't get them, get capsules of each from the drug store and cut open a couple caps of each, mix it all together in a little molasses or yogurt and give a tiny bit to each...you can oversode selenium...so go slow...a pea size drop ready to repeat id you don't see any improvement.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

cmany said:


> Also think I should start her on antibiotics since I can't get the last of the after birth out...


Yes, you need to give her antibiotics if she has not cleaned yet. In your case I think I would go with the full 5 days of Nuflor since she isn't feeling well to begin with.


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

Ok first chance I have gotten to get on here today...

Busy day...

Thank ALL of you so much for your insight and suggestions...

So here is where we are at.

I was able to get 2 different calcium drenches...one is the CMPK - last one...they had another one...got that too...both with the propelyne glycol...

Got an injectable B complex - high level...

I had a Nutri-drench that I had been giving her...got an Omega drench too...

Had to get selenium tablets...had vit e gel caps...

Did a bolus flush this morning...got some out...thought we were clear, but when I came home from picking up the other stuff...there was still some coming out, which I was able to remove...

She is SO not happy with me giving her all of this stuff...so she has got some fight in her...

She did perk up after I gave her some of the selenium mixed with vit e in molasses...I did a little at a time...got her up...and once she let me know that she was going to fight me...I backed off...Perked up and annoyed works I guess...

Not happy with the calcium drench either...but got her to take it...

When I left her she was moving around, getting away from the babies that are not hers...

Which I switched out Mitzi and Pinkie...Mitzi doesn't bully her...and Mitzi seems upset that she now has a roommate...been hollering at us all day about it...

Peppa is producing a bit of milk...which her stronger boy drains before the other 2 can get to it...so we are giving them milk either milked from Pinkie or from storage...and they are getting much stronger...

I have started her on antibiotics...I have Pen and Biomycin...so started with the pen...that's all I have right now...

Had my daughter contact her FFA leader/Teacher for vet that makes house calls...she had one who is local...YEA!!! So if I need different antibiotic I can make that call tomorrow...

She is being difficult about the vit c...but I am getting it in her...

She's not happy to see me at this point...but that's OK...

Her back leg...

After the selenium mix...we were able to see her walk better. If she takes small steps...she seems ok...but a bigger step and her left rear leg will hook into her rear right leg, which causes her to trip...

Her spine and hips are really rattling...even popping when she is standing completely still...

Hopping adding all of vitamins will help with that...

I can't thank all of you enough...Last season which was my first, was a piece of cake...with the exception of having to reach in a pull out a stuck baby from my herd queen...everything else went so smooth...

Thanks SO much

Christine


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

sounds like you covered all bases lol..: ) Best wishes for a full recovery!


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## cmany (Apr 22, 2012)

Figured I would finish this thread out with the final update...

Peppa has recovered...

Her legs are better, she is producing milk...but still needing to supplement the kids...the boys typically drain her, and one more so than the other...

Giving her massages to get the milk to release better...

She is much strong tho...

Taking all the momma's out during the day, and putting the babies in the other pen, with Mitzi and Pinkie...Pinkie isn't too happy about it...she's not the most into it mom...but Mitzi is like UBBER Nanny...and keeps Pinkie in line...so it works...

Milking Pinkie and Rosie to ensure they are getting fresh milk...not just stored...and of course they steal from whomever they can...LOL...

Thanks SO much for all the help...she is looking so much better...and just doing great!!!

Christine


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

I really like good news! Good job and I'm so glad that Peppa is feeling better!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

:thumbup: good job!!!


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