# Help needed asap



## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Doe is dilated, and open. Pelvis is too narrow to get more then 4 fingers through. Shes been sitting like a dog or laying all day. Not pushing. Will occasionally nibble food if she gets up. She waddles very stiff if she does get up. This started late last night. Was not dilated until about 7 hours ago. She was induced, as shes been a problematic doe in past. I'm starting to worry though I've never seen this


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> Doe is dilated, and open. Pelvis is too narrow to get more then 4 fingers through. Shes been sitting like a dog or laying all day. Not pushing. Will occasionally nibble food if she gets up. She waddles very stiff if she does get up. This started late last night. Was not dilated until about 7 hours ago. She was induced, as shes been a problematic doe in past. I'm starting to worry though I've never seen this


Call the vet now.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> Call the vet now.


I do not have a goat savvy vet. Mines solution is put down, for almost anything wrong.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

You posted this problem twice. In the other post I mentioned any vet can assist in labor. It doesn't need to be a goat vet.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Contractions dilate the cervix. If she's not contracting, she may not fully dilate I had a similar problem with a doe two years ago--the kid was laid wrong and not stimulating strong contractions so I had the dickens of a time getting my hand in there. I could only get two fingers in at first even though she was clearly in labor. 

If you put your hand in there, it will help stimulate contractions. Get some lube and keep working your hand in there and see if you can get her to dilate some more. Get someone to help you hold her. If you have someone with smaller hands than you, see if they can do the job. Good luck!


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Goats Rock said:


> You posted this problem twice. In the other post I mentioned any vet can assist in labor. It doesn't need to be a goat vet.


Vets in my area that will even see them step limited. I made this seperate post to keep more organized. I already tried to call around


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Damfino said:


> Contractions dilate the cervix. If she's not contracting, she may not fully dilate I had a similar problem with a doe two years ago--the kid was laid wrong and not stimulating strong contractions so I had the dickens of a time getting my hand in there. I could only get two fingers in at first even though she was clearly in labor.
> 
> If you put your hand in there, it will help stimulate contractions. Get some lube and keep working your hand in there and see if you can get her to dilate some more. Get someone to help you hold her. If you have someone with smaller hands than you, see if they can do the job. Good luck!


Okay so I was able to get in. And my boyfriend who is cow savvy also. I thought she was totally dilated. But you go straight in and then when you go to go down, theres something between you and the kid. The kid is alive. Is that more cervix??


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> Okay so I was able to get in. And my boyfriend who is cow savvy also. I thought she was totally dilated. But you go straight in and then when you go to go down, theres something between you and the kid. The kid is alive. Is that more cervix??


If you got to a kid her cervix has done its job and you are already past it. That is most likely the amniotic sac. Feel the kid. You want front hooves first and head. When she contracts and pushes you pull. If she is not pushin you dont pull. she will push a lot with you in there but she will also break for breaths.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

You're probably feeling the outer amniotic sac. The cervix is a ring of muscle that forms a wall between the vagina and the uterus. Contractions make the muscle open up like a donut, so no, you're not feeling "more cervix". 

What part of the kid can you feel?

When you put your hand in, does the doe start contracting?


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> If you got to a kid her cervix has done its job and you are already past it. That is most likely the amniotic sac. Feel the kid. You want front hooves first and head. When she contracts and pushes you pull. If she is not pushin you dont pull. she will push a lot with you in there but she will also break for breaths.


I couldnt feel feet. It feels like head only


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Damfino said:


> You're probably feeling the outer amniotic sac. The cervix is a ring of muscle that forms a wall between the vagina and the uterus. Contractions make the muscle open up like a donut, so no, you're not feeling "more cervix".
> 
> What part of the kid can you feel?
> 
> When you put your hand in, does the doe start contracting?


I could feel head. Maybe an eye socket. And yes she does


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> I couldnt feel feet. It feels like head only


Follow the head with your hand and you will find legs. Pull one at a time to the front or you can try grabbing both together if they are together.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> Follow the head with your hand and you will find legs. Pull one at a time to the front or you can try grabbing both together if they are together.


Neither of us could feel around it. Like you couldnt find anywhere to go to even look for legs. I hope that makes sense


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Use a little bit of grip to feel. Go slowly. It does feel crazy. But you can do this. You have do e the scary part of goin in for the first time. Are you sure it was a head and not little hooves.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> Use a little bit of grip to feel. Go slowly. It does feel crazy. But you can do this. You have do e the scary part of goin in for the first time. Are you sure it was a head and not little hooves.


It feels like the top of the head, not muzzle. Or jaw. I'm so scared I'm going to hurt her inside. I tried to grab but it feels like you cant even grab anything. It's like the poll is facing up almost.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> Neither of us could feel around it. Like you couldnt find anywhere to go to even look for legs. I hope that makes sense


If it was the head... try puttin a finger in the mouth amd see if it sucks. Then you know it is def the head. But they may be feet first and head. It IS a tight little blob


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Do you know any friends with goats that you can call?


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> It feels like the top of the head, not muzzle. Or jaw. I'm so scared I'm going to hurt her inside. I tried to grab but it feels like you cant even grab anything. It's like the poll is facing up almost.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> It feels like the top of the head, not muzzle. Or jaw. I'm so scared I'm going to hurt her inside. I tried to grab but it feels like you cant even grab anything. It's like the poll is facing up almost.


The poll up is good! Now press a bit more and see if you can feel two pointy things in front of it. They come out like a diver diving into the water.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> The poll up is good! Now press a bit more and see if you can feel two pointy things in front of it. They come out like a diver diving into the water.


Yes, I know about the feet. It's just cant find them.. or figure out how to grab anything


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> It feels like the top of the head, not muzzle. Or jaw. I'm so scared I'm going to hurt her inside. I tried to grab but it feels like you cant even grab anything. It's like the poll is facing up almost.


Take a deep breath and calm down. You HAVE to do this for your doe and the kid. You can do it. Just take your time. Close your eyes and visualize what you need to feel a d what you are feeling.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> Yes, I know about the feet. It's just cant find them.. or figure out how to grab anything


Try pressing a bit more firmly. The feet could be back. Or you could be feeling to quickly and be missing the feet in front of the head.

Does your bf have any cow friends who have pulled calves? Call them to help. It is the same concept jus a bit smaller.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Keep trying. Try to get a vet if possible. But keep trying.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

You're doing great, and Sfgwife has some awesome advice! Remember to breath and don't be too afraid of hurting the doe. Remember that the kid MUST come out. 

I like to close my eyes and imagine what I'm feeling. Feel for teeth to get your bearings on how the head is oriented. If you can't find the mouth, you may be feeling the tail in a breech kid. 

Either way, you need to reach DOWN to find the legs. For front legs, feel down the shoulder and elbow. Reach toward you and hook your fingers behind the knee to bring that leg forward. Then straighten the knee and move the foot into the birth canal. I've pulled kids with only one leg forward, but if you can get two that's better. Make sure the chin is resting on the knee(s) as you pull the kid toward you. 

If it's breech, reach down and find the hocks. Pull them up and straighten them one at a time and get both hind hooves into the birth canal. This kid will need to be pulled out quickly so he doesn't aspirate birthing fluid!


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

He


Sfgwife said:


> Try pressing a bit more firmly. The feet could be back. Or you could be feeling to quickly and be missing the feet in front of the head.
> 
> Does your bf have any cow friends who have pulled calves? Call them to help. It is the same concept jus a bit smaller.


Hes the one who always pulls. Worked dairy his whole life.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> He
> 
> Hes the one who always pulls. Worked dairy his whole life.


It is the same thing just smaller space.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Okay. Hes taking a fast break for a drink and going to go back at it. I appreciate this advice a lot I hope we can get them out okay


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> Okay. Hes taking a fast break for a drink and going to go back at it. I appreciate this advice a lot I hope we can get them out okay


Or do you have a cow or horse farm that you pass on your way home... go knockin on doors.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> Okay. Hes taking a fast break for a drink and going to go back at it. I appreciate this advice a lot I hope we can get them out okay


Is he done with his drink?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

If you have smaller hands, you might have better luck doing this yourself. Just sayin'. 

Have you located the head, or are you dealing with a breech? 

I also want to mention that there is a smaller possibility that this is a head back presentation and you are feeling the point of the shoulder instead of a muzzle or tail (these things can all feel very much alike when they are slippery and wet and covered in an amniotic sac). If you have a head back, don't go for the legs. Feel along the neck and see which way the head is turned, then try to bring the head forward first. Pull an ear, hook your finger in the mouth, or even try to get a string around the head and pull it toward you, but bring the head first! Once you have the head in place, THEN go for the legs. I found out the hard way that it is darn near impossible to reach in far enough to bring that head around when the legs are already in the birth canal.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

His hands are a little thinner then mine, he's not a big dude by any means. 

This is what he said. 

It's like putting your hand in a sandwich bag, and start to angle down and then it's like poking a belly button. And your feeling the kid through the lining of her vagina.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

this is also at hand depth. You cannot get deeper then a hand.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Ok... so, are you saying the cervix is actually still closed? Nothing inside the uterus should feel like a belly button. So now we may be dealing with something else entirely. 

"Dilated" means the cervix is open (NOT just that you can get your hand into the vagina!). When dilated, you can get your hand all the way into the uterus. Remember that "donut" I mentioned? If he's feeling a "belly button" I can only take that to mean that the cervix is not open and your doe is not actually in labor. 

Did you actually ever see her go into labor, or did she only start pushing when people started putting their hands inside?


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Damfino said:


> Ok... so, are you saying the cervix is actually still closed? Nothing inside the uterus should feel like a belly button. So now we may be dealing with something else entirely.
> 
> "Dilated" means the cervix is open (NOT just that you can get your hand into the vagina!). When dilated, you can get your hand all the way into the uterus. Remember that "donut" I mentioned? If he's feeling a "belly button" I can only take that to mean that the cervix is not open and your doe is not actually in labor.
> 
> Did you actually ever see her go into labor, or did she only start pushing when people started putting their hands inside?


She was induced. She showed labor signs earlier than inducing would have caused. At first, you went in with 2 fingers, boom hit cervix. But then today at 11ish, all of a sudden you could go in a whole hands length. *i* thought it felt like a ring around my hand when I went in about an hour ago, I felt it too. But it's odd, because you get your hand in, shes got very narrow hips, and you get to where you angle down, and it feels blocked off. But you also can feel kids through it. What I am wondering is if her cervix didnt thin out, but not totally open. As far as labor, prior to checking her She stopped eating mostly, odd behavior, ligaments entirely gone, some discharge.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

It is very important to figure out whether your doe is actually in labor or not. If she's not in labor then there's no hurry. It's a false alarm and you just need to be patient.

If she is in labor (straining, pushing, yelling, etc.) but not open, then it's a medical emergency called "ringwomb" and a C-section is the only way to save the doe and kids.

Here's a link about true and false ringwomb in sheep: (same principle as for goats).

https://www.lifestyleblock.co.nz/lifestyle-file/livestock-a-pets/sheep/item/1186-ringwomb


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Damfino said:


> It is very important to figure out whether your doe is actually in labor or not. If she's not in labor then there's no hurry. It's a false alarm and you just need to be patient.
> 
> If she is in labor (straining, pushing, yelling, etc.) but not open, then it's a medical emergency called "ringwomb" and a C-section is the only way to save the doe and kids.
> 
> ...


She has not hit the straining yelling pushing. It's the not moving much, not hardly eating, ligaments gone etc. And then never progressing, or going back normal


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Ligaments can be gone up to 24 hours before kidding, and many does stop eating, move less, etc. for quite a while before labor begins. I had one doe give me the whole song and dance routine (laying around, nesting, hiding in strange places, talking to her belly, stretching, giving the odd push) for three days before she went into labor! 

The doe is not actually in labor until her water breaks, at which point things start happening pretty rapidly. But if her water hasn't broken then it sounds like you guys are jumping the gun here. I could be wrong because I'm not actually there and I can't see your doe, but it sounds to me like it's time for you guys to just sit back and keep an eye on her until she initiates labor. 

Is there anyone at all near you who has experience kidding out goats who could come help you out? That would be much better than anything we can tell you over the internet because, like I said, we can't actually see your goat and we could be giving you all kinds of bad advice because we can't see your doe and we don't understand the complete picture. What I thought was happening an hour ago sounds like it was completely wrong.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Question, Has the sack busted and has she lost all the fluids ?? If not and the baby is still in the sack with the fluids, then she may not be far enough along to deliver. If the baby is still alive and she is not having contractions, I think I would wait on her to do more to help you. If the sack has burst and the fluids are out then you have to get with it and get the baby out quickly. That's my take !!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I have to get going for now, but good luck! Try not to be impatient.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Baby is still in sack. Not trying to be impatient. Only was concerned about her. I will keep an eye on her. She should kid by 11 tonight if inducing her worked, at least for normal time range it takes. But she could always go over too. I'll keep everyone posted. This isnt my first time kidding, just the first time with this.


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

Are you sure you aren't feeling the kids butt like in the picture Sfgwife sent you? I've only given a little tug on a kid in the proper feet and head first position so I'm no expert. I know exactly how you're feeling (emotionally) right now. Tight quarters and very slippery, fear of hurting your mom and kid. So, I'm going to make a suggestion that might help and can do no harm. Massaging the udder stimulates the production of oxytocin that will strengthen her contractions naturally. Lying on her side will help her conserve energy. In women, the left side is preferable because it allows for the best blood flow to the uterus. Good luck and prayers for a safe delivery.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Definitely not a butt. Shes still not normal, this had gone on more then 24 hours now


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

if it was my doe, I'd at least call a vet for their opinion. I've never induced so I have nothing to add in its progression. It's always better to be on the safe side by calling than to have a horrible situation come up from delaying.
I wish you and your doe good luck.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

GoofyGoat said:


> if it was my doe, I'd at least call a vet for their opinion. I've never induced so I have nothing to add in its progression. It's always better to be on the safe side by calling than to have a horrible situation come up from delaying.
> I wish you and your doe good luck.


I did. My vet said I could try giving her another shot of lute but he wasnt 100% because his lack of knowledge on them. Does anyone here know anything about that?


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

I've also never had one that didn't progress immediately on the clock after the shot.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'd probably do both Dex and Lute. We always did 2 days in a row of Lute with alpacas. I did the same with the goats. But this was for an unplanned pregnancy.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

I usually induce lute alone without any issues, very important the kids are mature though. I could do DeX and lute, but she would have to wait until tonight before I could get the Dex...


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Good and bad news. I checked her again this morning, felt feet. Still not even contracting. The head was folded back against the spine, and front feet both there. I tried so hard over and over to push the kid back down and get the head, over and over. It was not possible... I must have tried for 25 minutes.. eventually I had to give up and get it out. Naturally she was gone as soon as she was out. I went back in after, found more feet and a head on top, as should be, thank God. Got that one out, beautiful doe. That was all. I'm so sad about the first kid. And it confirmed what I thought last night, with her being open, but everything wrong. The surviving kid is doing well. The mom, is relaxed but she went through a lot and is getting treated. Thank you all for the advice


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sorry you lost one. Glad the others are ok.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I hope your doe is ok after all that. I'm sorry you lost one. Good job saving the second though.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Yes, good job, both of you! You and the poor doe! How is she?


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Thank you. I wish I could have fixed that to save both kids, but I guess sometimes it happens. The doe isnt too terrible considering. Shes resting Shes drank, and nibbled a tiny bit to eat. Shes moved from where she was to lay else where. She is getting pain medication and a course of penicillin.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I’m so sorry to hear the bad news. ☹ But good job! 

I don’t know the backstory on this doe-why was she induced?


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Ranger1 said:


> I'm so sorry to hear the bad news. ☹ But good job!
> 
> I don't know the backstory on this doe-why was she induced?


Thank you. And our weather is much too cold currently, cae prevention, and she specifically was a problem kidder last year also. More bad luck then a phsyical problem with her though.


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## Dwarf Dad (Aug 27, 2017)

I am sorry that you lost the first doeling. Very good job saving doe and second doeling.
Keep up the good work!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm so sorry, just now reading through this whole ordeal. I'm glad you were able to save the 2nd baby, and hopefully mama heals and the baby thrives.

I'm curious, when you went in those first times, did you break through the placenta to get to the first kid? Or was it something you couldn't physically do with your hands? Sounds strange for sure. 
I've never had a sack not break even with first kid not in position.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

HoosierShadow said:


> I'm so sorry, just now reading through this whole ordeal. I'm glad you were able to save the 2nd baby, and hopefully mama heals and the baby thrives.
> 
> I'm curious, when you went in those first times, did you break through the placenta to get to the first kid? Or was it something you couldn't physically do with your hands? Sounds strange for sure.
> I've never had a sack not break even with first kid not in position.


Thank you.

I have little hands, I am 4'11 so not a big person. This doe is so narrow in the pelvis. I did not break it, I've never felt something like I was feeling with this doe yesterday night, I just could not wrap my head around it. Her cervix was indeed open last night. I think what I felt last might was the strangly tough sack and the mess the first kid was positioned in, looking back. this morning is when I finally felt the feet. And when I got them out enough to get to the sack, the sack was oddly hard to break. Along with a lot if it was behind the kid. The dark bubble filled part of the sack, never even came until after both kids. The placenta was behind kids, not in front.


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## cristina-sorina (May 4, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I have little hands, I am 4'11 so not a big person. This doe is so narrow in the pelvis. I did not break it, I've never felt something like I was feeling with this doe yesterday night, I just could not wrap my head around it. Her cervix was indeed open last night. I think what I felt last might was the strangly tough sack and the mess the first kid was positioned in, looking back. this morning is when I finally felt the feet. And when I got them out enough to get to the sack, the sack was oddly hard to break. Along with a lot if it was behind the kid. The dark bubble filled part of the sack, never even came until after both kids. The placenta was behind kids, not in front.


I'm so sorry about the first doeling but congratulations on the healthy second doeling and good job saving mama! 
Just a quick question, are you in an area that is selenium deficient? I've heard of amniotic sacs so tough they have to be ripped open with teeth in selenium deficient does that's why I am asking.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

cristina-sorina said:


> I'm so sorry about the first doeling but congratulations on the healthy second doeling and good job saving mama!
> Just a quick question, are you in an area that is selenium deficient? I've heard of amniotic sacs so tough they have to be ripped open with teeth in selenium deficient does that's why I am asking.


Thank you! And yes I am. They were given BoSe this year. But I am still learning and trying to find out how much how often they need it. Jeez... yes it was hard. I hard to grab pinch, wrap around a finger and tear to get it to break. Shes the only doe I had kid this season like that.


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## cristina-sorina (May 4, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> Thank you! And yes I am. They were given BoSe this year. But I am still learning and trying to find out how much how often they need it. Jeez... yes it was hard. I hard to grab pinch, wrap around a finger and tear to get it to break. Shes the only doe I had kid this season like that.


Thats just crazy how it can get like that. Wow...thank you for sharing your experience!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

cristina-sorina said:


> congratulations on the healthy second doeling and *good job saving mama*!





cristina-sorina said:


> Thats just crazy how it can get like that. Wow...*thank you for sharing your experience*!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I kind of wondered if this might be a head back presentation. Those do feel weird, and because there is no nose or feet in the birth canal to stimulate contractions, the doe often does not dilate properly. Your description of a "belly button" threw me off entirely though. This is the danger of diagnosing over the internet. 

I'm glad you were able to eventually get the doeling out. Head back is one of the most difficult presentations to deal with, and without being able to break the sac you really had no hope of getting that head turned forward. I'm sorry the first kid didn't make it, but congratulations on the live one! I hope the mother is still doing well. I'm going to second the opinion about selenium deficiency. Thick amniotic sacs and malpositioned kids are two classic signs. Best of luck for future kiddings!


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

So...What do you think you were feeling that felt like a belly button? Possibly the little cleft where the neck meets the chest?? Just wanted to say sorry for your loss of the doeling. You guys are real troopers. I don't know if I could have managed getting internet advice, making vet calls and trying to pull a kid at the same time.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I am pretty sure I would not have managed that presentation!


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## Treva Brodt (Jan 11, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> I am pretty sure I would not have managed that presentation!


I agree, especially not in those tight quarters. Doctors have a maneuver for delivering a baby that is presenting shoulder first that requires two people. One pushes back from the outside while the other pushes back vaginally. It doesn't always work either but it's worth a shot because by that time it's too also very dangerous for a C-Section.


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