# I'm curious as to how many of you...



## OwnedByTheGoats (Mar 7, 2013)

Don't disbud? I don't and will NEVER stick my babies under a hot iron, but I know others think completely differently. If I ever did it it would be paying my vet 70 bucks to put them under and disbud then. So, do you or don't you? For the ones who do, what makes you feel like this is okay.. or that you don't feel okay with it and do it anyway? And to those you don't, why don't you?

I'm not judging anyone! I'm just curious to what your views are. Please no arguments, Please.


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## emilieanne (Oct 15, 2012)

I think it's fine but I don't do it because when they scream (just from being in the box) it makes me feel HORRIBLE and all shaky. So I have someone else do it. 
The person I have do it has been doing it for around 20+ years and she doesn't think it bothers them. She actually believes the horns coming through bother more than the disbudding. 
She does give them a shot afterward that makes them loopy so they will be calm and not bump it though.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

I agree with emilieanne. I have my vet do it, but its much less than $70 (it's $10 for me). She gives them a shot first that makes them drowsy then does it. They scream but it's because they are away from their mothers and I do it between 3-7 days old. At this time their nerves aren't completely developed so they don't feel it. At least, that's what I've been told. Once it's over my vet puts a powder over the areas (helps minimize pain and disinfect I believe) and wraps their heads with a loop of vet wrap to keep the powder in place. They get the vet wrap removed the next day and after the drugs wear off it's like nothing ever happened. I personally could never do it but I'm also very lucky to have a vet that can do it for me.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Different breeds, circumstances and the will of a breeder, to want to disbud, that is their decision. One situation is, they are around small children or have other concerns.

I will say, I do not disbud, I think it is a bit harsh, however, I do respect those that do, if done correctly. 

I like boers with horns, look better, show better. 

You can catch Does easier and hold them for simple things you have to do and horns are a radiator, it keeps them cooler in the summer, warmer in the winter.

You cannot bring a disbudded goat in a herd of horned goats, the battles will be bad and may cause damage.


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## OwnedByTheGoats (Mar 7, 2013)

Well, it just bothers me when people say, "it doesn't hurt them that much". I mean, how can you tell? Do they just say things like that? The reason people don't do it, I think is mostly because people KNOW it hurts them. I just couldn't do it... 

And about the nerve thing, if you cut a baby goats ear off, does it not hurt because their nerves aren't developed? I don't know... it just bothers me...

BUT again, I won't start an argument!


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## OwnedByTheGoats (Mar 7, 2013)

toth boer goats said:


> Different breeds, circumstances and the will of a breeder, to want to disbud, that is their decision. One situation is, they are around small children or have other concerns.
> 
> I will say, I do not disbud, I think it is a bit harsh, however, I do respect those that do, if done correctly.
> 
> ...


Well, but I have had my horned doe and buc with many disbudded goats... they haven't caused damage. My doe doesn't even pick fights.

I agree with almost everything you said though. I feel like taking their horns away is rude in a way that they are more vulnerable to things. And a goat's horns tells a lot about that goat's history.

I think every breed except for lamanchas look good with horns..


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## emilieanne (Oct 15, 2012)

Well, (and I mean this in a curious way) 

Some people can tell when an animal is distressed and in pain, other can not. I can personally. Or at least I believe most of the time I can. 
If you ask how can we tell they aren't In pain, how can you tell they are? 
They're away from moma, away from all the other goats, and they're seeing new things. 
It's very different to them. There are a lot of factors. 
I understand where you're coming from but it's better then banding the horns when they're older, IMO. 
They're just like humans. The younger, the less they understand.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I have never _liked_ disbudding, and I actually prefer goats with horns, for their sake as well as mine, but I have come to admit that disbudded goats are much safer to be around, especially for children.I think goats without horns, (especially Nigerians) look a bit off and weird not having them. I mean, once you see how natural and regal they look with horns, you can never look a at a disbudded goat again without noticing a lack of something. At least I can't.
But horns are a big danger- not because the animal will try to harm you, but because accidents can and will happen. I have a scar right under my eye where a goat accidentally jabbed me once. If it had been a little higher, it could've put my eye out, and it was totally unintentional!
So I think it's a good thing to disbud, especially dairy animals, if you're going to be handling them a lot and if you have children.
And we have our vet do it as well; they did a great job, giving the babies a tetanus and pain killer shot first. The babies only scream out of fear, I believe, not pain while its being done. 
The next day their heads hurt, but only for a day, then they are back to normal, jumping and playing. They are so young when it's done, I don't think they remember it at all after a day or two.
Whoa, sorry to have written so much, but that's how I feel.


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## Delilah (Jan 6, 2013)

We disbud our own goats, it's horrible they scream and some of them thrash in the box. We started doing it ourselves because when we had the vet do it and they were put under, well they never did well after that. It took them a while to recover. Disbudding ourselves, it's painful for about 10 seconds and then fades and before long they forget and bounce around and are all over you again. I hate hearing them scream in pain it makes me feel bad for them but they really don't remember it or hurt for that long.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I would like it if the poll had another option: Yes, but I don't like it.  It's probably too late to do it now, but non of the others are really how I feel. Just saying.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

For me, since I raise dairy goats, I have to have them disbudded and prefer it for my situation. I don't have any issues with anyone else having them, it's just my preference and what works best for me. I agree, especially for the Boers, that horns look really nice. It's just for my situation, it doesn't work.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

we disbud because they have to be in order to show. our first goats were/are not disbudded and really i feel that it is safer to have them disbudded for all involved. our vet knocks them out completely and disbuds and gives them their first shots. when they come to they seem fine. but the vet leaves some pain pills for them but we rarely need them.


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## goatgirl16 (Nov 21, 2012)

We have ours disbudded by vet he puts them to sleep but it is cheap $10 a goat I prefer horns all my bucks have horns but I am always black n blue on the legs from them accidentally hitting me as they are passing by me or while I am feeding so I agree with disbudding because accidents happen but I don't like it


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

Well we have dairy goats and really need to disbud. Especially if anyone wants to show one of our offsprings. Way back when I had some pygmy's they had horns and kept getting caught on everything around the farm. I found them in all types/styles of fences (goat/cattle/field and even single slick wire horse type). It was not fair to come home to find them stuck in fencing or worse I even finally tried the piece across the two horns to keep them out of fences and had one some how get stuck standing up on a tree branch between the horns and end piece (special little goat, he was the one that would do a hand stand when I trimmed his hind feet).

Now I have always used a vet that I use to work with years ago and she is great at disbudding. We first gas them, give them banamine, burn and they never act like anything ever happened. We had just a couple start getting scurs (they had thinner skulls when we went to burn so she went lite), one we reburned two weeks later (did just fine) and the other we didn't reburn and his new owners were fine with that since he had already been sold when they started to form. I have no problem with disbudding if it is done right but I do not like to see (please do not take this the wrong way but there is a story to follow this statement) people trying to save a $ and having no experience disbudding their own especially with a hot iron. One individual thought it was too expensive and wanted to do their own. . . well they nearly killed one kid trying to do it from what they had seen others do. Well it ended up costing more for them to save the kid and the cost of the supplies then just having the vet do it. Now with that said I have no issue with people doing it that have learned how to do it without harming the kid. I had considered doing my own but the hubby would not be much help and I prefer the initial gas to knock the kids out. One day I will have to finally start doing it since I know my vet will not be around forever and not all vets are trained on how to correctly disbud kids. When that day does come I will be sure to have her show me exactly how to do it the correct way with hands on training. 

My hubby actually likes the way goats look with horns but for our breed, discipline and safety it does not work into our current herd to leave the horns at this time.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I disbud. I don't like doing it, but it's part of raising the type of goats I choose to raise. It's not a painless procedure, but it's over with quickly and they generally don't show any signs of pain once put back with their dams. The pros outweight the cons when it comes to disbudding my kids. If I could keep them all from having to go through the disbudding, tattooing, vaccinating, castrating, etc. then I would, but these are all things that will benefit the kids in the long run.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I think goats are just meant to live in the wild where their horns are for a reason- like protecting themselves. And since we have them in captivity, the horns are not needed anymore. :shrug:

I will say our vet had not done goats before, (though I think they do calves all the time) but they did a great job. Out of six kids this year only a couple got little tiny scurs, nothing much, and one was a buck, and they're harder to do, I believe.


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

I disbud for safety reasons. I have seen too many goats injured from horns, both others from being gored and horned ones from getting their heads stuck and breaking their necks. My friend lost her $5000.00 buck when his horns prevented him from getting his head unstuck from the V in a tree. He fought until he snapped his neck. 

A neighbor called me one day to come help with her doe. The doe had her udder ripped open by another does horns. A really nice milker was destroyed because of that. The udder was damaged beyond repair.

I also have seen people impaled by their darling goats horns, totally accidentally, but painful and potential very dangerous just the same. Human kids are right at eye level to most goats horns. Would you want to be responsible for your child, or someone elses being blinded for life?

I have a scar on my thigh from my one and only dairy goat with horns. She jumped off the milk stand and her horn went through my thigh muscle and knicked the bone. Total accident but very painful for several days.

I have seen just as many horned goats killed by predators, so I don't buy into the protection arguement.

Horned dairy goats cannot be shown.

In alot of areas, leaving horns on a goat is a sure way of having that goat end up in an auction if they cannot be kept any more. 

Insurance companies are refusing coverage, or raising the premiums due to horned animals.

I have read many posts about horned goats breaking their horn and suffering weeks of pain and bleeding, even the chance of bleeding to death.

10 seconds of the iron, most of which they don't feel because the nerves are killed, is a small price to pay for their own safety and the safety of others.

Plus, I don't think domestic dairy goats look good with horns. A nice clean head makes for a very pretty profile. 

I also don't believe in using horns to handle a goat. They don't like it. I can handle mine just fine without horns, even the boers I used to have that were disbudded.


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## myori1 (Aug 19, 2013)

I like disbudding, and do not mind doing it, but I understand those who do not like to do it themselves, or don't like having it done at all. Whatever you are comfortable with and is right for your goats and your situation. 

I prefer disbudded goats, though, just to eliminate any harm that could come to the other goats or to me from being around a horned goat. Especially when handling big bucks in rut I feel a lot more comfortable if I have one less thing to worry about on them. And with dairy goats I personally feel it is easier, because they won't get their heads caught in the milking stanchions as easily. I've also had to deal with enough trouble with goats getting their heads caught in fences, and they didn't even have horns so I can't imagine how much harder it would have been to free them if they had been horned. 

However, the only way that I do like dehorning is the hot iron. If done right I feel that it is only painful on them for a short amount of time, and there is little worry of harming them aside from a slight burn. I had to help dehorn a calf once using a scoop dehorner and that just seemed really terrible, cause we ended up having to cauterize an artery and everything. And in those circumstances it leaves a path open to the sinuses, and that seems too risky (and gross). Hopefully I'll never have to do that again. And I don't know how I feel about dehorning with bands. It seems to me like it also has a high risk of infection.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I was a big time pro horns at first, I liked the idea that they had something to defend them selfs with and I really didnt want to put them under the disbudding. But after bruises all over my legs, getting heads out of fences, dealing with legs of kids being stuck between horns, and the biggest breaking point of changing my mind was when a prego doe got her head stuck then another doe hit her and she aborted. The first time I disbudded, it sucked, I cryed right with them, but the vet way was a no go since I had 115 kids last year. So as much as I dont like it I still think its worth it in the end.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I disbud them, I don't mind, they scream just as much with tattooing, surgical castration, etc. Yeah it does hurt them, but I feel its necessary, and it has to be done with my dairy kids. I personally do not like horns on goats, some boers being the exception. I disbud my calves too.

Some people say that after a few seconds they do not feel it because the 1000° iron destroys the nerves, but I disagree, they can feel it the entire time.

I don't mind disbudding, it's just one more thing that has to be done. I don't use a box either, I just hold their head to my leg and do it.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Well said lotsofgoats, and Jessica84!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

OwnedByTheGoats said:


> Well, but I have had my horned doe and buc with many disbudded goats... they haven't caused damage. My doe doesn't even pick fights.
> 
> I agree with almost everything you said though. I feel like taking their horns away is rude in a way that they are more vulnerable to things. And a goat's horns tells a lot about that goat's history.
> 
> I think every breed except for lamanchas look good with horns..


Not saying, there will always be a head butting issue, but, if you do have a mean Doe, that hits with horns hard a goat without horns, it won't be pretty. 

I know, this is an upsetting Topic for some, me included and I do hear your pain. But, we have to respect those, that do this procedure. 
When a kid is young is a better time to do it, then when they are older.


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

I have mine disbudded by someone else, its not something I could do myself. I think it does hurt them quite a bit, but once its over, they stop screaming. They seemed a bit stunned for a few minutes, but then get over it. Tattooing, now that is something I can do myself, its way less traumatic for everyone, but yeah, they do scream for a half second when they get poked. 

I try to think of it like, this, its for the greater good of the animal, in the case of dairy goats who are being sold with the plans of beign show goats. Like, some of my horses HATE getting shots, or blood draws, I knw it hurts for a second, and is clearly scary for them. However, its just one of those things that needs to be done! At least with the tattooing and disbudding, its a one time thing.


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## WarPony (Jan 31, 2010)

We do a lot of things to our animals that are temporarily painful or unpleasant or stressful for long term positive reasons. We give them painful injections, castrate them, wean them from their mothers, remove their horns in one way or another, etc. I am ok with that. I don't LIKE doing it, but I accept that it is something I need to do to make it possible for me to manage my herd in the most effective way possible, and to ensure that they can get the best home possible if and when i sell them.

When i first started in goats (not actually all that long ago) I was 100% pro-horn and anti-disbudding for my herd. Now... after a few years of hands on with horned goats... nope. Never again. As I type I am icing one of my hands. The last remaining horned goat on my farm got his head stuck through fence that there is no way his horns should be able to fit through (supposedly goat safe). He had been there for who even knows how long while I was at work. He was hoarse from crying and was dehydrated. In trying to free him my hand got caught between the fencing and his horn. I got him out, and he is fine, but i get to go to work tomorrow and try to do my job with jacked up fingers, and I have fence to repair, and I have to tape that stupid piece of pipe back across his horns again to keep him from doing this every single day until his horns grow longer and he really can't get stuck. 

We each have to make these choices for our own goats. For me having a goat with horns was fine right up until it wasn't any more, and when it wasn't fine any more it was bad. I almost lost my very best doe when my horned doe hurt her really bad. I just decided after that to suck it up and deal with disbudding to prevent any issue like that or the fence, or the numerous bruises i was getting every day just from the girls being friendly.


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## TrinityRanch (Mar 26, 2013)

My mother HATES disbudding, so much to where she can't be at our place while we are doing it. She used to be a nurse's aid; she has seen some gruesome stuff. Disbudding is absolutely painful for a goat. I don't know if it is comparable, but isn't kidding also painful? For livestock producers, these are necessary things that can't be compromised. Most breeds of goats need to be hornless, the exception being Boer breeding stock. We, however, breed for wethers and they MUST be disbudded or we do not have the right to sell them at auction.

This year was my first year disbudding, and I performed on 9 kids. I have to admit, I did not even flinch and felt little guilt over it. Since they are so young, they forget thing so easily! But everyone has his own opinion, and we all breed for different purposes


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## OwnedByTheGoats (Mar 7, 2013)

Well, Trinity... I guess with that I could ask this question:

Would you rather have a baby or have your head burned to the skull with an iron?

I think I would pick have a baby, LOL.

And about the whole, "I have seen horned goats have their horns torn off" thing, well, I have seen LOTS of "disbudded" goats who have scurs fall off MUCH easier than actual horns. But you don't see that problem usually with experienced disbudders.

But, I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, because I don't even know if that statment is true. Everyone has their own opinions on things.


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## brownie (Jan 31, 2013)

We have to . Wethers can't be shown at county fair if they have horns longer than one inch 

HARSH!!!!!!!!!


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## DJFarm (Jul 18, 2011)

I have 2 goats currently with horns. The biggest mistake I made was not having them disbudded. My whether is a 100plus pound Lamancha and it makes it so dangerous for us to do simple things with him like hoof trims and vaccines. He's good but one wrong move and he puts a hurtin on you. Also it is much safer for the rest of your herd. I do not personally disbud, I use a veterinarian as I do not want to hurt them. It is $25 where I go and well worth it. I am a firm believer in pain medicine and also ask for a few days worth to give them after the disbudding. It is a very short procedure.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I don't disbud. For one, scurs are ugly as sin if it's not done right.For two, I am more along the line of thinking that goats are born with horns, so they stay as such. Also,I am not wanting to take the chance of "boiling" their brain, thank you  And it does not bother me enough to pay for it to be done, or to search for someone else to do it.Any goat I sell, I explain the risks, so IMO, it is then on them to decide if they want to deal with horns or not.
In my area, you see a LOT with horns...so it doesn't really impact selling IMO here.
If I get a goat that is rough with horns, I would probably just have it processed. There are lots of goats out there that are well behaved, even with horns.
Keep in mind, my kids are older (youngest are 15) so I have no worries there.They know to watch the horns at all times! 

My fencing has small enough holes they cannot get their head in it.Once in a while, my buck gets my wethers leg in between his horns, but so far no injuries, although I realize it is a possibility.

I can understand why people do disbud,though.If it were not so horrific, and had less room for error, I may do it. Or maybe eventually, I will want to. But for now, I just watch out for them


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

OwnedByTheGoats said:


> And about the whole, "I have seen horned goats have their horns torn off" thing, well, I have seen LOTS of "disbudded" goats who have scurs fall off MUCH easier than actual horns. But you don't see that problem usually with experienced disbudders.


My does have broken off their scurs while play fighting and there was a drop or two of blood but keep in mind that scurs are not attached like horns are.


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## Nubian_Nut (Dec 21, 2012)

I should mention, however that my does have tiny scurs, smaller than a thumbnail, so maybe there is an issue with the larger ones?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

We've never disbudded, and honestly don't ever plan too. But with my kids showing in 4-H, if they do wethers in the future, then we'll have to learn more about tipping horns so they don't get long, thin or sharp. The boys are okay this year, but if the kids went to state fair then there probably would have been an issue.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*I must say, I am so impressed with our members. You "all" have been so sweet and respectful in answering questions asked. Thank you everyone. *:grouphug:

We have found, that no one likes having to disbud. But, in some situations it is something that needs to be done.

I agree, that in the wild, they need horns, definitely. We have domesticated them and changes have to be made sometimes, in order to have them safely around us and our children. It is up to each and every breeder. I for one do not disbud and do not sell to 4h ect for that reason, but, I see reason why some do


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## goat luver 101 (Jul 19, 2011)

If I had a dairy or a meat breed I would do it, but angoras need to have their horns anyway.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

goat luver 101 said:


> If I had a dairy or a meat breed I would do it, but angoras need to have their horns anyway.


Did you mean that they need them to be shown? I don't know anything about angoras, but I want to have some one day maybe.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I disbud my dairy goats. Where I am at if I want to be able to sell them (and show them) they can't have horns. I see horned dairy goats on craigslist all the time, for very low prices and they are usually on there for ever. I also like them without horns because their heads fit through the stanchion better, they can't hook each other's legs, udders. etc. and I think dairy goats look funny with horns. I had two 50% Saanen bucklings this year, I was working out of town so obviously they didn't get disbudded. They looked so funny compared to the ones that I had disbudded. Their horns went straight up and I could see them being a problem when handling them or around other goats.

They do scream when you do it, but they also scream when you put them in the box. Mine usually scream worse when I tattoo. If done properly the disbudding iron is supposed to cause 3rd degree burns, which are supposed to not hurt afterwards. My kids always go back to running and playing just minutes after I get them out of the box. If the kid is itching its head or acting in pain it was not disbudded correctly. I try to do mine before they are a week old so the horns aren't really started yet and they don't have to be burned as long. I've disbudded a lot of kids and have never had one get burned too long, I can't imagine anyone holding the iron on that long that they caused brain damage. Usually when my kids are done (my step dad does it, he has branded lots of cattle and knows what a good burn should look like) the iron is held on for a few seconds, look at the head, hold on for a few more seconds, look at the head if it doesn't look "right" they get a few more seconds. 

That said, I have a small herd of meat goats and they will get to keep their horns. Out here show wethers can be shown with horns so there is no reason for their offspring to not need their horns. I think the Boers look good with horns, their goes back and if spaced properly they can't get legs stuck between the horns. I do have one Spanish doe that will have to go... she likes to hook one of my other does' legs between her horns so she will have to be sold before she breaks a leg.

It is kind of odd to me that in cattle, beef cattle typically come polled where as dairy cattle typically do not but they are disbudded... One would think that someone could breed dairy cattle to be polled as well especially when you almost never see a horned dairy cow at a dairy.


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## myori1 (Aug 19, 2013)

> Quote:
> 
> 
> > _If I had a dairy or a meat breed I would do it, but angoras need to have their horns anyway._
> ...


I believe they usually keep horns on fiber goats because they have a thicker coat most of the year than other breeds, and they need their horns to help them better regulate their body temperature. There may be another reason for it, but that's what I've heard/read about them keeping their horns.



> It is kind of odd to me that in cattle, beef cattle typically come polled where as dairy cattle typically do not but they are disbudded... One would think that someone could breed dairy cattle to be polled as well especially when you almost never see a horned dairy cow at a dairy.


As for this, it is an interesting topic, and one that is actually becoming pretty big in the dairy cattle industry. But the problem was that polled cows were not originally recognized in the holstein breed (our most used dairy cow breed) for quite some time, and so those few that did exist were never very good genetically. So people decided they would rather just disbud horned calves instead of risking diluting their good genetics by trying to breed to these polled cows.

I'm not sure why they only recently decided to start looking in to it, but there is now a push for better polled cow genetics, and Europe is actually way ahead of the U.S. in that aspect. I do feel like they should have progressed quicker with this than they have, given that polled is a dominant trait in cows, but I guess there are a lot of years of not breeding for it to overcome.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Thanks for answering my question about angora horns.


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## LamanchaAcres (Jan 11, 2013)

We disbud ours and thats for show and safety. I personally think all dairy goats look weird with horns but i love the horns on boers. Everyone has their opion thou.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Here is an excerpt from Fiasco Farms website on disbudding....

How many kids can you disbud at one time (in a day)?

We have disbudded many, many kids and never had a health problem caused by the disbudding. Because we disbud when the kid needs it, and not when it is most convenient for us, we usually end up doing one a day, maybe two, and in some rare instances three in one day. Many breeders "save up" their kids and disbud them all at the same time. This is more convenient for the human, yes, but actually is very dangerous for the kids. The kids really should be done on the day they need it, and you should not do a lot of kids in a row for one very good reason-- it can cause brain damage to the kids. When you do a lot of kids at one time (let's say 6) the iron doesn't get to "warm up" properly for each kid, and so, may not be up to the proper temperature for the kids that are "last in line". Because the iron is not as hot, you have to hold it on the kid longer to get the proper orange ring. But, in doing this, you are heating up the brain of the kid more than it should be. This causes the brain to swell. The kid may not start showing signs of illness until over three weeks after the disbudding (usually at 3 1/2 weeks). The kid shows signs of what appears to be listeria, but when treated for listeria, the kid does not improve and usually dies. What has happened is that the brain has swollen due to being overheated during the disbudding, and cannot expand anymore due to being confined in the skull. The pressure on the brain starts to cause brain damage. The kid will die unless treated with anti-inflammatories. If treated fast enough, the kid may be saved, but will never be totally "right" in the head. The best way to avoid this problem is to let your disbudding iron heat up at least 10 minutes between each kid and not do more than 4 in a day.

This was one of my worries for disbudding and causing brain damage....Too much room for error to me as a newbie


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Currently, I do disbud all of my kids. I am going to keep a wether next year with his horns. I want to experience it. I have seen many goats with horns who do very well with them. I cull for personality anyway, and my fence holes are small, so they wouldn't, I don't think, get caught. My goats are taught manners, so using those horns would be completely unacceptable. I kind of see it as ... dogs are naturally born with teeth -- if you pull out the teeth it will take the pain out of the bite, but they shouldn't be biting in the first place.

Accidents happen, but they do have horns for a reason. I will probably continue disbudding all my registered stock, and who knows, maybe I will decide I need to disbud all of them. But I DO want to experience it, so I can have an experienced opinion on a well-behaved, horned kid.

I respect and understand both ways.


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## myori1 (Aug 19, 2013)

Byccombe said:


> Thanks for answering my question about angora horns.


You're welcome.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I think horned goats are beautiful...and I dont think one way is better than the other....no right or wrong..just different needs of the farm. We do disbud...for many of the same reason..safety...milking tables arent made for horns..save our fences...

And I double what Pam said...everyone has kept the piece on this subject ..We can be pretty passionate about certain things.. So Kudos!! and Thank you


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Absolutely dis bud em here. Legion is the only goat on the property with horns and I am kinda regretful for that as he cant be penned with anyone else. Pretty much all the reasons to have them dis budded have been listed above: Horn stuck in a tree and die, head stuck in a fence and having to cut the fence to free em, if you find em in time and they havent killed themselves, goring and killing other goats, goring and injuring their owners (even when not intentional) and lastly ADGA requires it for showing. As a seller, I could not sell animals to others with their horns intact and feed good about it as all these potential problems then become theirs.

So if you weigh it (10 minutes of pretty intense pain, which if you have ever suffered a major burn, the nerve endings die within an hour or so and the pain is gone. At least until you bump it. Though ice cold jell packs instantly stop the pain.) VS. any ONE of the above things... yep, pretty easy choice. Knowing this though doesnt make it easy and doesnt lessen they way you feel while doing it.

On a side note, banding bucks is much more painful if you account for the length of time they are in pain.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

We disbud, we show our goats, and for safety reasons for both them and us. Especially where we have yonger kids that like to visit.. We do it at night so they got to bed with a headache and wake up the next day like nothing had happened  it's not something we enjoy doing.. Heck, i dont think anyone enjoys it! and i have yet to do it, i just help my mom :laugh: I'm a chicken But, it's what is best for us and our goats..


And I agree with Pam  I am very impressed that there hasn't been any arguments  sooo nice to read a thread like this without nasty comments  thank you all  :thumbup:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am impressed as well with all.


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## OakHollowRanch (Jun 6, 2013)

We disbud because our goats are registered and usually shown (often by young 4-H kids). Our vet lives right down the road from us, so she just puts them under. She does the disbudding while I tattoo. Afterwards they get a shot of Betamine and a big bag of ice for their head. I feel bad when they cry out even while they are asleep, but they seem just fine when they wake up.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

TDG-Farms said:


> On a side note, banding bucks is much more painful if you account for the length of time they are in pain.


Really? I did not know that, but I have often wondered. We have not as yet had to, thankfully, but may need to next year.:/ I've always thought the nerves would go numb after a short time, but that was just my thought. Something to keep in mind.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Depending upon the buck, they can seem not to be in much pain to screaming for 24 hours. Most it takes em a few minutes to really start feeling the pain OR the pain is bad from the start and after a few minutes they realize its not going away and start to act up. Typically though, they lay down / flop down on their side get up and repeat many many times. Crying can range from almost nothing to laying out somewhere and just cry and cry. They all walk very stiff legged when they do walk. Some kick at their bellies. But the major pain lasts at least 24 hours and then starts to subside.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Good to know. I think I would give pain medication if I did it, sounds pretty unpleasant for them.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

When I band I give them something for the pain ... I band at night, they go to bed, and they wake up fine, haha.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

we only band the bucks ment for meat so their discomfort isnt a priority. And after 20 years of banding, you just realize its not a bid deal and get used to it. Same with dis budding or branding. The ones raised as livestock, get treated accordingly. Though I can fully understand someone using pain meds. I hate it when people put ear tags in their goats cause we dont do it and are just not used to it.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

I have not yet disbudded a goat myself, but mine are all disbudded by their breeders and I plan to continue the practice. I am trying to find someone in my area that is experienced to show me how to do it properly. Much as I love my vets, I do not trust them with this. They have shown too many gaps in their goat knowledge. I am sure it will be unpleasant, but it is a temporary discomfort that has many lifelong benefits in my opinion. 

If I sold a wether as a pack animal before it was disbudded I would prefer to leave the horns however, because I understand it is very beneficial for packing.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

A quick spritze of ACV after the disbudded take away the pain fast..kids go on like nothing...


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

happybleats said:


> A quick spritze of ACV after the disbudded take away the pain fast..kids go on like nothing...


:shocked: Really? I did not know it was pain relieving! cool


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## goat luver 101 (Jul 19, 2011)

Byccombe said:


> Thanks for answering my question about angora horns.


I agree with what was said, the angora cannot circulate heat the way other goats can due to all the fleece. one of the only ways for them to cool down is to send it out through their horns. When you grab an angoras horn when it warm out, they are very hot.
I've never heard of a hornless angora, much less seen one at a show, here is the breed standard for show if you care to look at it
http://www.aagba.org/images/AAGBABreedStandard_110630.pdf


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by happybleats View Post
> A quick spritze of ACV after the disbudded take away the pain fast..kids go on like nothing...
> Really? I did not know it was pain relieving! cool


Yep good for sun burn too 
__________________


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I am totally trying the ACV next time. I have a very hard time with disbudding. Tattooing I can do, castration is ok as long as I'm sure I didn't catch plumbing. Disbudding is just very difficult for me, and I'm scared for those little brains.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I voted "Yes, and I can't stand it." This isn't a perfect world; pain is necessary sometimes, much as we don't like it. It's tough love. As Emilieanne says, it's better than banding the horns when they're older. I do not want a single one of my kiddos to go through that. I also don't want them to hang themselves, hurt a human, or hurt another goat.
I totally understand those who say it is cruel. But it's not a black and white case. In some ways, it could also be called cruel to leave the horns on. There's no easy solution.


> Well, it just bothers me when people say, "it doesn't hurt them that much".


I understand, and that statement is not true IME. It absolutely DOES hurt them that much, but if you do it right, it's only for a few seconds.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

ThreeHavens said:


> I am totally trying the ACV next time. I have a very hard time with disbudding. Tattooing I can do, castration is ok as long as I'm sure I didn't catch plumbing. Disbudding is just very difficult for me, and I'm scared for those little brains.


Ya I always worry also about cooking their noodles but also turn out ok when done right.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Well said, milkmaid and TDG!


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## conny63malies (Aug 23, 2013)

Mine will have to be disbudded as i have young children that will be around them and also for the safety of other animals that we have now or will own in the future. Not sure if i will do it myself or just have it done by someone. I only know that the two doelings i will be getting next year will be done by the breeders.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I think it is totally farm to farm decisions....some need to disbud, others like myself, do not. If I had a lot of pasture, and a lot of goats, or small kids around a lot, I imagine I may opt to more likely than I would now with only 6....

It's a decision to be made by each farm what would work best. I don't think there is a wrong side here....


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Well.. I keep going back and forth. I think a goat with horns just looks awesome. I can't imagine a Boer buck without horns .. oh wait yes I can. They look funny! Our first year we decided to disbud and we did a terrible job. Thankfully we failed so badly that the horns all came in fairly normal. The next year we decided that we would not disbud at all and ... oh my.. that has been a problem so far. Two of the does.. one will not keep head out of fences and the other one has wild horns that poke. I have bruises in my thigh from her just swinging her head around. So with children.. these horns are at eye level. 

This next season, we are going to disbud the babies we are keeping for now on. It is just too hard for small children at our place as they end up being eyeball level. I know it sounds cruel to disbud but it is a quick job and they don't remember it, and we will have someone more knowledgeable help us this year.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I agree that it's a farm-to-farm thing. For some farms, horned goats work perfectly. On other farms, disbudded works perfectly. In the end we do what is right for our situation and our herds. :thumb:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The way I see it is that into everyone's life a little rain must fall. Those few seconds of burning is nothing compared to other things in life. I give a shot of Banamine 30 minutes prior to doing it. If disbudding is the worst thing your goat ever goes through, you have a very lucky goat indeed.


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## Paige (Oct 14, 2010)

I personally disbud for showing and personal herd mangagment reasons, and I have found they scream just as bad when you restrain them as when they are actually getting burned. It hurts bad, but after a couple seconds, the kids jumps away, sucks down a bottle of milk, and bounces down the barn aisle to play with the rest. 

My does can be pretty brutal to one another without horns, and I can only imagine what it would be like if some had them and some didn't. Also, my goats stick their heads through cattle panel to eat grain. The feeders are on the outside of the stalls to keep their dirty little feet out and to keep them from breaking their legs by jumping in and out of the troughs. If they all had horns, I couldn't do things like that, so the horns just wouldn't work with our set up.


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## goat luver 101 (Jul 19, 2011)

It's kind of like getting your ears pierced, yeah it hurts in the moment but in the long run most people are glad they did it. 

It's the same for goats I think, though more extreme, yeah it hurts a lot, but the alternative is risking them hanging themselves or getting their heads stuck in the hog panel, and maybe hurting somebody. All my goats have horns and I think they are beautiful, but it's not always easy to manage. I find myself rescuing stuck goats every once and a while and its not fun. 

I think there are upsides and downside to each, and neither is wrong. In the end it's up to the breeder.


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## OwnedByTheGoats (Mar 7, 2013)

Getting your ears peirced? I would much rather do that... LOL... and I don't think the goats are glad that it happened... ever. I do agree that there are upsides and downsides, as with almost any decision goat breeders make. 

I just don't see that they forget it... of course, maybe they do, no one actually knows. But that time where you are burning a baby's head just doesn't appeal to me... and I just can't see doing that. And taking their horns away, well, there is a bigger "Risk" that they will have a heat stroke and die... if you don't, you are taking a "Risk" and they might get their heads stuck... I would rather them have horns. Since I have horned goats, we have small fencing, and they have NEVER gotten stuck in it. So it is just adjusting things to your preference. 

I just think that if you do disbud, you BETTER do it with experience. I have a doe named Alice who is beautiful... until you look at her horns. Now she has messed up horns, because her previous owners tried to disbud. Now her horns are a problem.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Grace, I know it maybe a hard thing to do.. I don't do the horn burning. I do know that goats do not have the same sensitivity level as a dog or a horse. All the babies that year got completely over the horn burning and are so tame - They forgot it completely. I could even show them the burner.. take them to the same place.. and they might get a tiny bit of a memory but.. no.. they forgot it all happened. Its how goats are... They won't forget where a gate is once you take them through it or where a hole in the fence is tho to escape. That I do find to be amazing.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

OH.. This also is a preference but we prefer to have a buck with horns. I know some find this to be best option to disbud future bucks.. and sometimes I know it would have been easier on us for our head banging buck we had in the past to be hornless but he was quite proud of his horns. They sure made him look majestic and he sure felt like the weight of them and would hold his head up high and proud. I've seen the boer bucks without their horns and they look like they have a complex or as if something is wrong with their head. Those big wide boer horns on a buck.. I think they look awesome and wouldnt disbud bucks we are keeping..


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