# First time breeding and all bucks!!



## smilesx4 (Jan 9, 2014)

So we bought our Nubian buck last August and we bred 3 does. The first two does delivered all bucks no does and now I am not sure what to do. Can you get a buck that only throws boys? If so do I sell him and start anew and HOW do I sell him? He is a wonderful buck, beautiful colors and a super sweet temperament. I don't want to start over, but a dairy farm needs does!! 

any advice would be much appreciated. I have one more doe to go and she is due the 23rd of May. 


thanks!


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## BOERKING (Jan 5, 2015)

Possibly coincendental 

You can sell him on craigslist

Sorry if im not much help


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## thegoatgirl (Nov 27, 2011)

It is possible your does are extremely deficient in iodine. That can cause a lack of doelings, they are reabsorbed. :wink: Personally, I would give him one more chance, stuff the does (and the buck!) with food and minerals and see what happens.


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## byardbabe (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi, Our first two years with goats we had 7 buck kids and only 1 doe kid.:hair: I was thinking the same thing. Then I read about the iodine. We started giving kelp free choice. The next year we had 3 doe kids and 1 buck kid. We now average about 50/50 boys to girls. Just a thought. Good luck on the rest of your kids. :girl:..Think pink!!!


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## smilesx4 (Jan 9, 2014)

I do have a goat block out at all times and I add minerals to their feed daily. I will try the iodine and see. Thanks


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

They need the loose mineral free choice. The block does almost nothing for mineral intake.


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## smilesx4 (Jan 9, 2014)

Yes, I do have loose minerals out as well, but find they ignore it. So I started sprinkling it on their feed. Those that don't need it leave it, the others gobble it up with their feed.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

How old is your buck? I have heard in some cases young bucks tend to throw bucks. And then you have buck years and doe years. My Aunt had buck years several times in a row, and then the next few years had a surplus in does. If you love the buck, I would try at least another year.

You may also want to feed ACV in the doe's early pregnancy. Starting several weeks before breeding and continued a week after breeding, I like to put a good glug of ACV in the does' water. I also make sure before breeding they are really up to date on copper and selenium. Thus far we've had a pretty nice ratio of bucks to does, except one year was a buck year, which happens.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

ok with just three does bred by him, its perfectly normal to get any combination of girls or boys or all of either. There are just not enough animals there to draw any conclusion. You are right in that the buck determines the sex while the female determines the number of them. Just chalk it up to a buck year and dont worry about it.


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## FreedomStarr (Oct 21, 2014)

I think these things are usually just coincidence. Right now our family has a "buck generation". All boy children from me, my cousins, sisters, brothers... Etc. 13 boy children, 0 girls. Different fathers of course, so it's just an odd sort of coincidence. I would not blame the buck just yet


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

My buck Charlie threw all boys last year, he was only 7mo old. This year we got 3 girls out of him, he just just turned 2. So if your buck is young and you like him give him another chance...


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

True that Janeen. Younger bucks have been known to throw boys.


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## smilesx4 (Jan 9, 2014)

I am so glad I asked you all this question! He is 1 now, but was 7 when he bred the does so that may be the problem. 

I am really happy to not have to sell my boy!!

I have also heard of ACV in the bucks water all the time. Do you all do that? I have never given it to my goats and maybe I need to do some research on it.


have a great day!


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## Bree_6293 (Aug 4, 2014)

I put acv in all of my goats water (does and bucks). They love it  not sure if it does any thing! My first ever kidding season starts in 2 weeks


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

ACV in the bucks' water helps prevent UC. I like to start off only putting a little in to make sure they like it.

ACV in the does' water before breeding and early in pregnancy apparently helps with more of a doe ratio, though I don't know if it's proven.

Either way it's very good for them.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Does dont determine sex, the buck does. And there is nothing that actually helps one way or another to get more does. If that were the case, then we wouldnt be nearly dead even on the kidding tally.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I have a doe that only gives bucks and doe that only gives does. They are full sisters. Doesn't matter what buck I breed them to


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Still the buck that is doing it. Doe determines how many eggs to drop, bucks sperm is the deciding factor. Females have XX chromosomes. While the male has XY. Each parent contributes half. So the female always gives a X while the male gives either and X to produce a female or a Y to produce a male. So it is always the male that is the determining factor.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

TDG-Farms said:


> Does dont determine sex, the buck does. And there is nothing that actually helps one way or another to get more does. If that were the case, then we wouldnt be nearly dead even on the kidding tally.


Well dang it. Better save my ACV for the bucks, lol!


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## nigies4ever (Sep 19, 2012)

I didn't know iodine deficiency could cause a higher buck ratio! What are some symptoms? And what can you do for it, aside from offering a good loose mineral?


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

ThreeHavens said:


> Well dang it. Better save my ACV for the bucks, lol!


Maybe not. The idea behind the ACV, is that it changes the PH in the doe's body. The change in PH supposedly helps the female "swimmers" to swim faster thus increasing the chance of them beating the males to the eggs.

I've done it for three years. First year I only gave it to one doe and got two does and one buck. (The other does gave me five bucks and zero does.) 
The next year, out of five does, I got eight does and four bucks. It's working!!
This year, I got three does and three bucks. Hmmm. 
I really don't know whether or not it works. But even so, I still give it as I believe it is good for lots of other things.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Ah yes I remember hearing that. Well, you know, it won't hurt. Worth a shot, right?


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

That's what I figure.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ranger1 said:


> Maybe not. The idea behind the ACV, is that it changes the PH in the doe's body. The change in PH supposedly helps the female "swimmers" to swim faster thus increasing the chance of them beating the males to the eggs.
> 
> LOL thats not how that works  All the swimmers are the same.
> 
> (EDIT: By saying "All the swimmers are the same" I didnt mean they are all boy or girl swimmers but rather that all swimmers have the same chance.) And by the answer of biology below, I mean there is not one scientific study that is considered legit that proves a certain food or drink can influence gender selection as all have had vastly varied results.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I didn't say it was. I said SUPPOSEDLY. Besides, may I ask how do you know that it isn't?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Biology


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Where did you take your biology class? I'm not trying to sound snide but am really just wondering where you get your information? I haven't found any scientific evidence/studies to support or refute this idea. So how can you positively say that it isn't true?


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

*Edit*
I just saw that you had edited your post. But still, I have the same question. How do you know? Because it hasn't been proven either way, there is a 50/50 that it could indeed be as the theory says, right?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I know because I use common sense. I know because if there was actually something out there that influenced sexy selection, we would all know about it and use it. And not in the "supposedly" way. If there was something you could give to an animal to do that, it would be in use by cow dairies and beef cattle farmers. Both of which are the major contributors to livestock husbandry and current medicine. Every wormer or feed or medicine is first developed with cattle in mind. With drawl times and doses are all cattle based. THEN sheep and then after years of use, maybe goats will be mentioned. I bring this up because there non of the "supposedly" ways are practiced by dairy or cattle farmers. Why? Because they dont work.

See I dont need to find proof that it DOESNT work because that proof is in the numbers. Again I refer to this years kidding tally thread as my proof. IF there were a way to influence sex that actually worked, we wouldnt be looking at exactly what you would expect to see with goats. A 50/50 kid ratio. I cant say how many people on that thread are or have actively practiced one of the myths, but again, common sense tells us, if anything worked, we would all know about it by now and be using it. The fact that as of 2015 and at least on this forum, nothing influances the sex of a kid, tells us, there is nothing that can be used that works.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Not necessarily. That's like saying a discovery can't be made by a normal person-only the professers, scientists and theologians can ever discover anything because they are the big "cattle people." 
ACV is not a medicine or drug. And it wasn't "developed" with any animal in mind. 
Going down a little rabbit trail here but just because the "big" guys don't use it doesn't mean it doesn't work. Why don't the cattle dairies use herbs to treat their animals? It isn't because they don't work. They DO work and it has been proven time and again that over the long run they are safer and more effective too. Actually, I know why they don't use them and it is the convenience of drugs. Give a shot of penicillin once a day for ten days. Herbs would be every hour or two for ten days. Anyway, It doesn't matter. All I'm saying is just because the big producers don't use it doesn't mean it doesn't work. Maybe they don't use it because it isn't cost effective, convenient, or make a big enough difference for them to care. 
As for the ACV.... People these days seem to be against anything "herbal" or "natural." So IF ACV works, (and this idea of more does vs bucks is relatively new) and some end of the chain goat person found it out, it is very logical what with the wariness they have and the short time the idea's been out there, that they aren't using it yet. 

The Kidding tally..... How many of the people on there USED ACV? What if every person that didn't had a pretty big difference in bucks vs does? The thing is, we'll probably never really know if it works. Because it is natural to have buck year this year and a doe year next year. So what if that's what it was? However, combining all the health benefits of it with the CHANCE that it increases doe numbers, I'm going to continue giving it. 

I'm not arguing with your thoughts that it isn't true but the fact of, "how are you so sure?"


BTW, it wasn't pertinent to the conversation is maybe why you didn't mention this but just in case you didn't know, cattle people used sexed semen nowadays with a 90% success rate for producing the desired gender of calf. I hope that comes to goats soon!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I agree with Dave. 

I would not sell a young buck, that you really liked other than his first crop consisted of mostly bucks, only because his first crop consisted of mostly bucks.

Believe in the math and what Dave is saying. It's just as likely that the next year you could have an embarrassment of doe kids. People that raise boer show wethers often complain because they have too many doe kids! Trust in God and be grateful for every successful kidding and it will all even out.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Interesting about young bucks producing bucks their first year. That didnt happen with our buck. He was under a year when he bred 4 does. 3 out of 9 of his kids were bucks.


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Hakuna Matata! Someone please name their next buck this!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Ranger1 said:


> Not necessarily. That's like saying a discovery can't be made by a normal person-only the professers, scientists and theologians can ever discover anything because they are the big "cattle people."
> 
> ACV is not a medicine or drug. And it wasn't "developed" with any animal in mind.
> 
> ...


I can honestly say I have proof that it does not work... I used ACV in the bucks and does water my first season. I had 4 girls and 3 boys born. This season I didn't use ACV, and I got 4 girls and 4 boys this season....

If it did work everyone would be doing it, because let's face it we all want does;-)

I'm with Dave it is a common sense thing..


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Tenacross said:


> I agree with Dave.
> 
> I would not sell a young buck, that you really liked other than his first crop consisted of mostly bucks, only because his first crop consisted of mostly bucks.
> 
> Believe in the math and what Dave is saying. It's just as likely that the next year you could have an embarrassment of doe kids. People that raise boer show wethers often complain because they have too many doe kids! Trust in God and be grateful for every successful kidding and it will all even out.


Ditto that


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## FreedomStarr (Oct 21, 2014)

What herb had been proven time and time again to be more safe and effective than antibiotics? Not trying to incite a riot, just curious.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

packhillboers said:


> Interesting about young bucks producing bucks their first year. That didnt happen with our buck. He was under a year when he bred 4 does. 3 out of 9 of his kids were bucks.


My young buck produced more doe kids than buck kids too. My buck bred 4 does when he was 4 to 5 months old and had 7 doe kids and 4 buck kids.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

FreedomStarr said:


> What herb had been proven time and time again to be more safe and effective than antibiotics? Not trying to incite a riot, just curious.


One example, that everyone on this forum is probably familiar with, is dewormers. The worms become resistant to the chemical and you must rotate. Depending what the chemical is, there is also withdraw milk and meat time from zero days to 36 days according to Fiasco farm website. 
Worms do not build up immunity to herbs and there is no withdraw time.

Same goes for antibiotics and other conventional medicine.


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## FreedomStarr (Oct 21, 2014)

But what has been proven more effective than antibiotics? I'm looking and I cannot find what your talking about. I am not talking about feeding animals medicated feed for intensive farming. That can create immunity really fast and I see the problems with it. Antibiotics are so effective they changed the game for everyone. I was just curious what you meant? A couple links would be awesome. Maybe preventative treatment and not actual antibiotics when you have a raging infection? Again, I'm really just curious. There is no underlying snark or anything.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

LadySecret said:


> My young buck produced more doe kids than buck kids too. My buck bred 4 does when he was 4 to 5 months old and had 7 doe kids and 4 buck kids.


Yep, 3 or 4 years ago when we got a new buck and used him when he was about 6 months old on like 25 does. Ended up with like 8 or 10 more doe kids then buck kids. Just goes to show that no one way of thinking is the only way of thinking when it comes to goats


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ranger1 said:


> One example, that everyone on this forum is probably familiar with, is dewormers. The worms become resistant to the chemical and you must rotate. Depending what the chemical is, there is also withdraw milk and meat time from zero days to 36 days according to Fiasco farm website.
> Worms do not build up immunity to herbs and there is no withdraw time.
> 
> Same goes for antibiotics and other conventional medicine.


lol sorry Ranger, I really dont mean to counter your posts everytime but wanted to clear it up a little.

Resistance to wormers is achieved through the improper use of them. The worming once without doing follow up worming or inadequate doses, are the two major causes to the build up to resistant parasites. When used correctly, a wormer can be effective for 10-20 years on any farm.

Herbal dewormers dont actually kill parasites. It just suppose to make a very hostile environment for them that they cant breed and multiply in. This is why you have to use a chemical dewormer before you use a herbal one as they wont work on a heavily parasite infected animal. Chemical to kill, herbal to protect.

We found even after using herbal after chemical, the results were minimal at best and didnt effect thread worms. Which we often have problems with cause of the ground squirrels. AND it gave the milk a nasty flavor.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ranger1 said:


> Not necessarily. That's like saying a discovery can't be made by a normal person-only the professers, scientists and theologians can ever discover anything because they are the big "cattle people."
> ACV is not a medicine or drug. And it wasn't "developed" with any animal in mind.
> Going down a little rabbit trail here but just because the "big" guys don't use it doesn't mean it doesn't work. Why don't the cattle dairies use herbs to treat their animals? It isn't because they don't work. They DO work and it has been proven time and again that over the long run they are safer and more effective too. Actually, I know why they don't use them and it is the convenience of drugs. Give a shot of penicillin once a day for ten days. Herbs would be every hour or two for ten days. Anyway, It doesn't matter. All I'm saying is just because the big producers don't use it doesn't mean it doesn't work. Maybe they don't use it because it isn't cost effective, convenient, or make a big enough difference for them to care.
> As for the ACV.... People these days seem to be against anything "herbal" or "natural." So IF ACV works, (and this idea of more does vs bucks is relatively new) and some end of the chain goat person found it out, it is very logical what with the wariness they have and the short time the idea's been out there, that they aren't using it yet.
> ...


I understand you use it and want to believe it and thats great. But the fact is, if it actually worked, we would know about it today. The studies that have been done would say "THIS WORKS" and not have little notes at the end saying something like results are not conclusive or results very. What do we know about ACV today? The same thing we knew about it 20 years ago. That a rumor has it that it might work. You are simply saying the same words that have been said for I cant tell you how long and those words are "it might work". Well the facts say 50/50 kid ratio is the average regardless of myths and wives-tales.

And you completely missed what I was trying to tell you. The "big guys" dont use it because if it did work they would. And the point about things happening for cows before they happen for goats is the example. ANYTHING that is used or discussed with goats has already been used and discussed with cattle for years. Both being ruminate animals, they are enough alike that what works for one has a good chance to work for the other.

So you came to me and said prove it. Well I dont have to cause Im not trying to sell you anything. But if you would like to prove your side of the argument, Id love to read about it and go over the scientific data. So please, feel free.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Besides it's going in the wrong end. When humans want a girl child they flush with ACV, nobody wants to go flush their goat every day during breeding season. The premise is that the male sperm don't survive in an acid environment. Drinking ACV does destroy the Lactic acid in your system but is neutral by time it is through the digestive system.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

LOL^^^ I dont know Jill, we all seem to spend quite a bit of time in our goats hoo hoos. Whats one more reason?


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I'm not going to go into the herbs because that was just a rabbit trail and that's not what we were talking about. 
I'm not defending the notion. Well, I suppose I kind of am but what I've been trying to say is that without PROOF you can't rightly just say, nay or aye to ANYTHING. 
I don't need scientific evidence to prove anything. Again, I'm not arguing about the ACV but about just "being right" about something without any PROOF to back you up. 

I didn't miss your point. The "big guys" don't use ACV because it doesn't work. Okay, that's fine. But the way you said it made it sound like, "If there is anything the big guys don't use it is because it doesn't work" which isn't necessarily true. 

Again, I don't know if ACV gives more does. BUT because of the vitamin and mineral benefits of it, AND because I don't know that it DOESN'T work, I'll continue to give it. 

I have no hard feelings against anyone and hope I didn't make anyone mad either. Just trying to say that it isn't right to judge without evidence. 

Jill, I have no clue what you tried saying there, but frankly, am not quite sure I want to know. Do I?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

... Again, I dont have to prove a myth doesnt work. The fact that its still a myth does that for me. BUT, my single word answer "Biology" was my proof. And Jill was the only one who hit upon it. There is no way ingesting ACV can work. Now granted, I have never heard of the flushing with it. So in that respect, I can not say if it would work or not. But at most if ingested, you effect the acidity of the urine. And thus why people use it as a means to help prevent UC. Personally I dont believe it would work enough to warrant using it even for that reason. The amount of ACV that would be needed to actually do any good, would seem to me, to be of a level that I doubt a goat would even drink. In the case of preventing stones, I suggest people use what is specifically said to prevent stones, Ammonium Chloride.

But like I said. If you use it and believe it works, fine, thats great. Feel free. Im out. Peace


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I can explain the use for UC Dave. On very small homesteads goats eat a lot of grass, which isn't really ideal food. Grass creates bicarbonate in the system lowering the PH of the body. ACV creates a more ideal environment and makes the urine neutral.


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## smilesx4 (Jan 9, 2014)

so my last doe delivered today (early, so I was a bit surprised!) and she had a ..............

you guessed it.................


a buck! 

I am swimming in boys right now! haha! Thank goodness they are all healthy and so are the mamas.

Guess that means it is time to go shopping for some gals!


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

That's rotten luck! I'd have to really like a buck to keep him after giving me only buck kids out of multiple does.


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

> Just trying to say that it isn't right to judge *without evidence*.


The lack of data proving ACV _does_ create more doelings is more than enough evidence to prove that it does not...

If it worked reliably, everybody raising goats would know about it and would be using it.


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## smilesx4 (Jan 9, 2014)

LadySecret said:


> That's rotten luck! I'd have to really like a buck to keep him after giving me only buck kids out of multiple does.


well the buckling that was born yesterday is my only pure nubian so we are keeping him and will breed with him and his daddy. Who ever gives me the most does gets to stay next spring! :laugh:


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

smilesx4 said:


> well the buckling that was born yesterday is my only pure nubian so we are keeping him and will breed with him and his daddy. Who ever gives me the most does gets to stay next spring! :laugh:


Sounds like a good plan!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

smilesx4 said:


> well the buckling that was born yesterday is my only pure nubian so we are keeping him and will breed with him and his daddy. Who ever gives me the most does gets to stay next spring! :laugh:


Sounds like a plan..


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

It may not help for baby selection but it seems pretty good for other things  Here is an ACV article that was on Yahoo this morning.

https://www.yahoo.com/health/why-fitness-pros-are-obsessed-with-apple-cider-117776976733.html


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

This is my Boer bucks first breeding season. I'm at 12 bucklings and 3 doelings from 6 does. Hoping it's a first timer thing


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