# Show or Performance? An in-depth conversation



## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I couldn't think of a better place to put this, so here goes...

I will be meeting the owner of the 11 bucks for export soon, and I would like to sound reasonably well informed. The main point of this discussion is the difference between a show winning animal and a heavy producing animal, what specific phenotypic traits aid both, whether or not the "industry" is leading breeders in the right direction, how breed standards should be decided, and if there should be any difference. This is not intended to be a thread for knocking show breeders, nor is it a thread for promoting one view over the other. It is simply a discussion on the differences in the types and why they exist.

To start, it should be known that I do not like "modern" show boers and believe they are a large reason they are rarely exported from the US as anything other than show animals (to my knowledge). I appreciate their value, but I simply don't see them as meat goats. The same goes for dairy goats. I often see flat toplines with giant udders winning shows, but the best producers often appear to be lacking in the conformation department. I want to know WHY there is a difference, what conformational points are essential to performance and whether or not they really differ from breed standards.


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

I'm a wee bit distracted at the moment, but I'm marking this thread so I can participate later.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

There are people who show and performance is critical. So it is a matter of learning which bloodlines work on both.

I think it is unfair to say that people do 1 or the other because there are plenty who do both. There will always be people who focus on one or the other though.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

There are indeed plenty who do both, but there also seems to be a definite difference between a conformation champion and a production champion, and the difference is most obvious in the boers. As I previously stated there is nothing wrong with either goal and both should be sought after, but if there is a distinct difference it makes it harder to do. 

Another thing I forgot to add-maintenance, i.e. frequency of worming, foot trimming, that sort of thing. Obviously a show goat must be at its best, but how does that translate to their performance as a meat/dairy animal? Is low maintenance possible in both types? Should it be? Why or why not?


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## lileomom (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm fairly new to the goat world, but as a youth I showed Jersey Cattle, and here's my 2 cents on the matter. Showing is great fun, and a great confidence builder and way to network with other breeders. If your business is selling pretty goats (or cows), then showing is a great way to build your business. 

If your income revolves around production, then you need to take into account your immediate environment and management style, and a whole host of other variables. Ever heard of a landrace breed? Your herd needs to be tailored to your individual operation and goals. 

My father utilized rotational grazing with our dairy herd when everyone else was building freestall barns and adding cows to meet expenses. He was able to support a family on 50 cows because he imported semen from New Zealand. Our main dairy herd was very blocky looking, not very "dairy" looking at all, but they produced on a mostly grass diet with low overhead. When I got to college I had to ask what an LDA was, a very common health issue in the dairy industry, which I had never encountered at home. 

If your operation is mostly a hobby, then by all means, let a judge and a registry dictate what your goals are. I'm lucky enough to be in that boat right now. If putting food on the table depends on the performance of your herd, then you need to think for yourself and set your own goals. No judge knows your land or your management style like you do.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Excellent post! 

Now, to the more technical side. Regardless of your goals, what (to you personally as a breeder, regardless of type) view to be the most important conformational traits for performance and longevity? Obviously good udder attachments are essential in any animal, but what about the less focused on aspects? For example, how does the degree of hip angulation affect overall performance? Neck length? Topline? Some of these may have obvious answers, like leg angulation, but I'm sure you guys can think of a few that don't quite seem as important or aren't as obvious. I'm not an expert on conformation, and my experience is limited, so how do YOU like your goats to be built? Why do you select for what you do? Basically, what is your ultimate goal in breeding? What is your ideal goat?

(I may be getting to help pick next year's bucks, and I don't want to disappoint)


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

I just have to say that the performance/show issue isn't a goat only problem. As noted above, it crosses ALL species. A few years ago beef went to the extreme of the show market steers needing to be as tall and long as you could get them (and, preferably black). A feedyard operator bought the grand champion steer at our fair and couldn't sell him to a packer for anything....ended up butchering it himself almost a year later at close to 2000 pounds and it still wasn't "finished". I see it in horses that are bred specifically for certain things and shown only in that discipline...such as halter. The Arabian breed is facing this issue in a big way. I see it in 4H....to be truly competitive you have to have a halter horse, a pleasure horse, a reining horse AND a speed horse. 

On this forum, I listen to people saying that you have to worm every 3 or 4 months. One person that trims feet every week! We have to give all kinds of supplements and vaccines. We have to make sure our animals have "draft free" shelter (that's a fun one when you live in a place where normal wind is 15 to 20 MPH and you have old buildings LOL) We are becoming so focused on our animals being sheltered and pampered that we forget that they use to have innate survival skills. 

What do I look for in my animals? I have a doe that can thrive on almost any kind of feed. Takes her 5 minutes to deliver twins that are standing and nursing before I can even get out a towel to help dry them! She gives well over a half gallon of milk to me even with babies on her full time. We haven't trimmed her feet in a year and she isn't overgrown. I wish I had a whole herd just like her. I can't help you a lot with conformation as I can't tell you WHY I like an animal, but I can look at one and say if it's good or bad. I must be pretty good at picking because when I'm at the sale, everybody else picks the ones I want too. LOL

Probably didn't help you much with your issue, so I'll get off my soapbox now.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

People are just starting to open their eyes now in the Holstein breed. We're seeing irrationally large animals that are costing us more and more for maintenance issues. Cost of breeding (keeping them unnaturally thin for eye appeal affects fertility and ovulation), cost of feed (the unstoppable ups and downs during show season, less for shows, then pack it on to breed/dry off), shorter life spans from not only stress of calving to maintain proper mammary, but also the stress of pushing feed and moving around. Other things such as bad feet/legs associated directly with free stall cement, which instead of correcting, we are simply getting rid of "nonadaptable" cows. We're seeing equipment breaking down more because of the use of additional bedding/feed/manure they pack, repairs from their large size in their beds, the parlor, gates, etc. And this is all affecting the Holstein population as a whole. We want larger cows, larger mammaries, deeper rib, etc, but many don't exactly push themselves to thinking about the future either. I like to maintain a proper balance. If that means my animals are smaller than the grand champ, so be it. I want something that is going to work for me: my pocketbook, equipment, supplies, feed, productivity, and improve my herd as a whole overall.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

I've heard of the issues in holsteins (my boss HATES working with them as a result), but I didn't know the beef industry was getting that bad. Then again, theres always been an obvious difference in commercial cows compared to the high end donor cows we have coming through, and I'm noticing that a lot of donors are listed as difficult to breed. So I guess the big question is, is the conformational standard for a show animal helpful or harmful to their productivity? Any particular examples? For instance, is a long, thin neck on a dairy goat going to help or harm in the long run? I had a photo of a top saanen with an LA 91 and my boss's first comment was "oh look, they're going to do what dobermans did". Are we as breeders just not noticing what particular traits are doing?

(Please don't view that as an attack. It's not. I don't have enough experience to make any kind of claim)


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

From a dairy perspective, there are definitely many structural traits that make for both a strong show and production animal. Having an ideal rump angle contributes to easier kiddings, and therefore a longer lifespan and higher lifetime production. Strong pasterns and correct legs also directly contribute to more years of soundness and productivity. The ideal shape of a dairy goat gives them the ability to sustain heavy milk production. Sure, femininity and long necks are not essential, and just because a doe has perfect conformation does not mean she will have high production, but a doe that has very poor conformation will not be as equipped to sustain the toll high production requires of her body over many years.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Are there any conformation points being awarded in show rings that aren't in the standard and may be harmful? My primary examples would be posty legs and pasterns on halter horses and overly roman noses on boers.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

In dairy goats performance is (and should be) way more important than show. I had a big Saanen breeder from Wyoming tell me that she sells almoost all of her kids just based on the dam, grand dam, great gram dam etc.'s milk records. She has her herd on DHIR and her goats MILK, but they do also show well. When you have a goat that is a heavy milker you have to have excellent attachments to support all that weight (think of a doe who gives 20+ lbs per day) for many lactations and also so she can still move around freely and the udder isn't in a position to be snagged or injured. Strong feet and legs also contribute to performance. If it hurts that goat to walk to and from feed and water they aren't going to do it as often. Splayed toes can cause issues over time (and be very painful for the goat) and people should pay WAY more attention to toes than they do, especially in the Saanens. Look for nice tight toes, those toes are going to hold up better with more weight and over the years and support that pastern better than toes that splay out or roll under.

Rump angle and width plays a HUGE role in udder shape and area of attachment. If you have a doe with a steep rump her rear udder will be set lower and the udder itself will be set more forward and she won't have as much room from her hips to her pins for an udder to produce a lot of milk. The wider the hips are the more area there is for an udder to be attached and more room for the udder to expand to produce more milk. A longer bodied goat has more room for a rumen and multiple kids, short bodied goats typically can't carry higher multiples as well as a longer goat and can have a harder time keeping their weight during pregnancy when the kids begin to take room that the rumen used to occupy. Legs that are set squarely under the animal will hold up longer and are better able to support the weight of the goat. Angulation (but not too much) to the rear legs is important because we all know that triangles are stronger than squares 

For me I want a goat that has a well attached, capacious udder that will stay where it is even when the doe is 10+ years old. I want her to have short, strong pasterns, square toes that are not splayed and legs that are set squarely under her. I don't want to have to worm the goat all the time and most of mine are pretty good in that area. As far as feed to manage them, it can be difficult to get a dairy animal that will perform to her maximum on minimal feed. I don't want to have to trim hooves all the time and I don't want hooves that will break down as the goat ages.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

The Philippines has been a big importer of US Boer goats in recent years with the exception of this one. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. 
I think the dairy goat world is a little further along in quantifying what is good in a dairy goat than the Boer world has. Which makes sense when dairy goats have been around a lot longer. Especially in the US. Milk records and appraisals etc. Some of that doesn't lend itself as well to Boer goats. When I think production in a Boer goat I think ability to get pregnant easily and then to kid easily and raise 2 or even 3 kids to a decent weight at 90-100 days. There is no one size fits all conformation for this other than maybe mammary system. If I had to fault ABGA judging it would be not enough emphasis placed on a doe's udder. You can't reasonably fault show Boers on meat. They are packed with meat or they do not win. Some of these problems with parasites and feet I see attributed to Boers I just don't see in my own herd. Do some breeds of goats have better feet than others? Sure, but the individual goat and the management differences are even bigger than between breeds. It's easier to keep good feet on a goat in west Texas than it is in Mississippi. Show me any goat that hasn't had his feet picked up in a year and I will show you a goat that could use a good hoof trim.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Perhaps anyone who makes a distinction between "modern" Boer goat and whatever they think is the better "less modern" Boer goat can send some pictures of what they like and don't like. Here is a picture of a Boer doe that was recently in a production sale where she was far from the top seller, but I would consider to be a good type for goat meat production. I admire her femininity. I admire how deep she is back where would be babies are being carried. I admire her udder.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

As a dairy person I would worry about how low that udder is; even without the capacity of a dairy goat that looks like it has potential for injury (granted, less likely if they're kept on pastures like that! My goats should be so lucky.)

One trend I've been seeing in show dairy goats is extreme angulation in the hind legs. I'm not sure how much of it is the way they're set up, but I know at least with horses that puts more stress on the hocks and can cause lameness. I like hocks that are angled just enough to keep the legs clear while I'm milking, no more.

I have one mixed breed doe (Boer/Togg) who's got nice conformation, kids very easily and is wonderful mom, but has a so-so udder and bad feet. My two Nubian does have less ideal conformation (but no major faults) but have better udders and feet. I'm hoping to breed them all to bucks that will balance out their weaknesses - my Nubian buck is more like the two does, and I really liked his kids with the crossbreed doe last year but the only one I had from one of the Nubian does had the same faults as the parents so I'd like to cross those girls out next year.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Thank you for the answers! That's more what I was needing, a good point by point explanation on which conformation traits you as breeders aim for and why.

I didn't know the Philippines were importing US boers. My experience with export is extremely limited, and I only know that many Australians (and a few other countries) really don't like our boers, and the "sheep" look is often the reason why. Without stealing anyone's pictures, I put a few links at the bottom of what boers I like and what boers I don't. Just try and remember it's all personal preference. I'd rather butcher out a commercial boer than I would a show boer, and that's where my bias comes in. I judge them based on how much meat I could get off of them, which is what I consider "performance" on a meat goat. Breeding is one thing, and a very important thing, but even if a doe is a champ at popping out multiples and raising them to a good weaning weight, it doesn't mean as much if her kids aren't as good on the rail as the lesser doe with more meat. Basically, so long as nobody's breeding nasty faults into them on purpose (again, think halter horses), I'm happy for those breeders.

I didn't know hip angulation actually helped out with udder placement. I guess it's common sense, but then again I've always had fairly steep hipped does, and my worst doe had the best attachments. She also had the most problems kidding, but I would blame that more on consistently kidding 11lb+ buck kids every year. I did have a question, though. Why do dairy goats get set up the way they do? I don't think I ever asked anyone, I just kind of did it. There's usually a drastic difference between a dairy doe standing normally and one standing set up, is it just preference? Wouldn't that hide any faults?

http://www.jackmauldin.com/feminine_look.html

This guy has a decent mix. There's plenty I don't like (Kelly Blindside, Absolute), and plenty I do (Collateral Damage, Creek Bono)
http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/bucks.html


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Are you talking about the rump or leg angle? Both serve different purposes. A long flat rump makes for easier kidding. 

Dairy goat poses are intended to show off their udder and conformation the best, but as with halter horses there are tricks to hide faults. For instance the ones you see with the hind legs parked way out and back hollowed are usually trying to mask a steep rump. Does with a good rump will show it even in natural pose.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

The rump. Leg conformation usually speaks for itself. Hip angulation is a cause for fights among several dairy breeders in my area. One swears up and down that a fair slope (like my doe had) is better for kidding and has no effect on udder attachment. Another says that a perfectly flat rump is best, and that any angulation is just asking for problems. I know a severely steep rump helps nobody, but it's the fair slope to no slope that seems to be an area of great disagreement.

Almost forgot-Tenacross, that doe has some good points, but her neck is just bleh for a meat goat. Too long, too thin, no meat. No, neck meat is not a prime cut, but more meat is ALWAYS better, and a shorter thicker neck will always be stronger than a long, thin feminine one. That's one thing I've always been adamant about. There's feminine and then there's overboard. Otherwise, I'd use her in a heartbeat. And yes, that udder is a bit low, but compared to some does I've seen, it's really pretty good. Overall, her dairy type neck is really the only thing I can find fault with, and again, please remember it's just personal opinion.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

In the example given by Mauldin's, the doe on the left is just a kid, where the doe on the right is older. Apples to oranges. Mauldin explains why the South Africans want a doe to appear feminine. Mauldin doesn't disagree with this. Then Mauldin says the reason why the doe on the left is winning is because she has a long skinny neck. I can guarantee that is not the *only* reason. I've been to enough ABGA shows to know you can not place high in the line unless your doe is carrying as much or more "product" as the other does in the class. I also am fairly certain the judging has toned down their importance of "feminine" and "pretty" recently. Looking at a goat only from the side can be very misleading. *If* those two does were the same age and in the same class in the show ring, I could easily see Mauldin's caped doe on the right beating the doe on the left *If* she had more product. You just can't tell from those pictures. I would not call Mauldin's doe "old fashioned". I wouldn't even say she has a "short neck" per se. 

As for the bucks at Able Acres, Kelly Blindside is not even a registered goat. He's not even 100% Boer. He would be used in wether program where they don't care about papers. I don't pretend to understand the wether business, but you can see where any knock you have against him is not a fair knock on ABGA registered breeding stock. As for HBS Absolute, he is a registered FB and I can't see what the big deal is from the picture either, but if you read the description, he has a lot of muscle. Again, one picture from the side can not do any goat justice. Good or bad.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Completely understandable. As I said, this is where opinion comes in, no? I don't like Mauldin's photos for comparison, the left doe's picture looked like a nasty chop job. I was more interested in the descriptions and the other links (hornset, bone thickness, etc.). However, Kelly Blindside to me (registration status notwithstanding, you can't eat papers) is what appeared to be the trend that the show ring was aiming for. Long, lean and "tubular". Basically, a sheep. I like my meat goats to be thick, and the tubular style is just not what will work for a meat producer, and regardless of what the wether people think/thought, those wether shows were supposed to be representing the prime meat animal, just like halter shows were supposed to be representing the prime working horse. Papers don't matter, I'm not knocking ABGA because of a select few "extreme" show breeders (ABGA isn't the only registry, and a TON of show wethers aren't fullblood, or even pureblood). If the judges are starting to relax on wanting the feminine look, then that is excellent. It seems the problem, no matter the species or breed is that when one trait wins, it MUST be taken to the extreme to win. Bad, nasty habit that tends to make it difficult to figure what you're supposed to aim for with breeding.

I do understand that a single side view isn't enough to judge an animal on, but without seeing them in person and without a full spectrum of photos from all angles, it's the best to judge them on, and that long, lean, tubular profile just isn't to my taste. Their carcass isn't as nice, though I will admit they are much prettier than the thicker, SA style boers.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I've never had a doe with a super flat rump so I can't speak to that. My Boer/Togg girl has one that I can consider fairly level with good length and she kids super easily and raises nice big kids. The Nubians are both rather steep although neither had trouble kidding last year.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:


> Almost forgot-Tenacross, that doe has some good points, but her neck is just bleh for a meat goat. Too long, too thin, no meat. No, neck meat is not a prime cut, but more meat is ALWAYS better, and a shorter thicker neck will always be stronger than a long, thin feminine one. That's one thing I've always been adamant about. There's feminine and then there's overboard. Otherwise, I'd use her in a heartbeat. And yes, that udder is a bit low, but compared to some does I've seen, it's really pretty good. Overall, her dairy type neck is really the only thing I can find fault with, and again, please remember it's just personal opinion.


I specifically chose her to see what you thought about her neck. She does have a long feminine neck. I would argue that is just her neck and has nothing to do with how much meat she packs. I would also argue "as a production animal" her worth is how many pounds of cabrito she can produce in a year, not how many pounds of hamburger is on her frame in that picture. She's obviously been recently working as evidence by her udder. I can agree that if dairy goat standards are applied to her udder you could say it's too low or whatever. I'd say it would be a little further off the ground if her legs hadn't been placed behind her for the picture. For a Boer goat, in my herd, I'd call that an excellent udder as there is no doubt she makes plenty of milk to raise kids. 
I also chose that picture because I know how that doe is bred. She is heavily influenced by Farmer Stock Exchange genetics. FSE. Lynn Farmer. This is "old fashioned" breeding as the Farmers were among the first importers of Boers in the US. One look at their bucks and you can see that more recognizable "older look". 
http://www.farmerstockexchange.com/


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

The neck is a good source of stew meat, and if done right, small steaks. It's thickness actually does have a small say in how much meat she packs, though I will admit it mostly affects total yield, and not the prime cuts. Again, it goes back to how much they produce overall, and more is always better (to a point. There is always such a thing as too much). As to her worth, I look first and foremost at what the animal itself would be capable of producing, followed VERY closely by how many pounds of meat she produces a year through her kids. I look at what she would produce first since that is the best estimate for what her kids would produce. It's as simple as that. My priorities are a bit different is all.

And yes, their bucks are more the "ideal" that I would want to see in a commercial operation. A lot of those does are too, especially that first one (4061 *Ennobled)


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I obviously don't export, but I do breed, milk, and show. I raise Pygmys, Nigerians, and Boers. I personally am not planning on going to a national show anytime soon, simply because that takes a lot of years of breeding etc. I want a doe that can produce and do well in the showring. A lot of you have seen this doe but maybe she would be a good example. She is not long bodied, but pretty correct and I think she will do well in shows. She also has a lot of capacity and is pretty meaty. I think she is a pretty good show and production doe. I am new to Boers, so thats just my newbie opinion. There are very competitive Boer breeders in this area Leaning Tree, Capriole, Dust Devil, etc. Also, there is a big market for goat meat. I love showing, so I want goats who will do well in shows, but since there is a large market for goat meat.... I want does who will produce well so I can get into that other market. I think Capriole is a good example. I have seen their goats in person. They are beautiful. But the one doe I have seen up close is also meaty and looks like she could produce nice wethers for meat. Again, I'm still a newbie. If you go on their website, they say that most of their goats come right out of the pen and go into the showring... And they obviously place well. 

As for the dairy side of things, I have a 10, almost 11 year old ND doe. She delivers kids quickly and easily, her kids are a good size, she milks well, and has great mothering instincts. She's not a grand champion goat, but holds her own in the show ring, especially for her age. She had old foundation lines, none that I know, but obviously they hold up well. She's bred to a buck with 'newer' lines, but still traits that I like to see in my goats. I like the older style better. So, that's what I breed for. Anyways, just my two sense.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:


> However, Kelly Blindside to me (registration status notwithstanding, you can't eat papers) is what appeared to be the trend that the show ring was aiming for. Long, lean and "tubular". Basically, a sheep. I like my meat goats to be thick, and the tubular style is just not what will work for a meat producer, and regardless of what the wether people think/thought,
> I do understand that a single side view isn't enough to judge an animal on, but without seeing them in person and without a full spectrum of photos from all angles, it's the best to judge them on, and that long, lean, tubular profile just isn't to my taste. Their carcass isn't as nice, though I will admit they are much prettier than the thicker, SA style boers.


I understand what you are saying. I don't really like "long" being equated to "good" either. Especially if it comes at the expense of "balanced". But where I differ from you, Mixed, is thinking "tubular" looking goats are winning at ABGA shows these days. Maybe at wether shows, IDK, I haven't been to any. What I do know is management and clipping can totally change how a goat looks. When you see pictures of show winning goats, you are not getting a true picture of what they would look like without all the prep. I know with the wethers they even with hold hay before showing as they don't want that belly showing. That can make a big difference in how a goat appears at any given time. The wether people also "run" their goats. It's not hard to see where a "fit" goat would look more "tubular" than a "fat" goat. With ABGA goats we take the clippers heavily to that front end in order to give a more feminine, clean appearance. On certain goats it can transform them into looking like they have more neck. Obviously taking any hair off the belly will make a goat appear "less deep", though I'm telling anyone, "tubular" is not considered "good" in ABGA goats. 
Also, we feed the heck out of these show goats. Goats raised entirely on pasture will not look the same. A person can argue this is wrong or whatever, but then you are arguing management and shouldn't confuse that with the animal's genetics. Mauldin says his caped doe is parasite resistant. That may well be true, but he has no idea of the relative parasite resistance of the doe on the left. The FSE bred doe in the picture I sent has been bathed and clipped for the picture, but she has also been raising kids recently. She would look different if she was dried up and fed for show for several months. For examples....


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Sydney, there is no reason not to think your doe will make a good brood doe. I hope you will show her come next spring and summer. I don't know if your doe will place well or not. The competition is pretty tough, but you shouldn't let that stop you. 

There is nothing wrong with how Sydney's doe looks in that picture, but this doe is a perfect example of a doe I could make look like she has a longer more feminine neck with the clippers. And I'm not even that good with the clippers.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Just remember, I'm talking overall, not just ABGA. My guess is the show wether market started the tubular trend and it looks like it's staying there, but still, wethers are the ultimate "meat" goat, and that style is just not what I see as ideal.

I wish more people would use "pasture" condition to show off their goats, it does make it far more difficult to accurately judge the goats.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:


> Just remember, I'm talking overall, not just ABGA. My guess is the show wether market started the tubular trend and it looks like it's staying there, but still, wethers are the ultimate "meat" goat, and that style is just not what I see as ideal.
> I wish more people would use "pasture" condition to show off their goats, it does make it far more difficult to accurately judge the goats.


As for the wether shows, a lot of ABGA people would agree with you. I try and stay open minded and appreciate any good goat as a good goat, even if they don't look like mine. I don't want to ever quit learning. 
I wish more people would go to a couple of goat shows and see what the goats and people actually are and are not. As competitors at ABGA shows we often stand around commenting on how our goats are too fat. Ha.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Like I said, I like the look in the sense that it's prettier. Frankly I think Kelly is a nice looking buck, but he's just so far from what I would want as a meat goat that I just have to ask why. Obviously he's a money maker, and I can certainly appreciate him for that.

I want to get my buck into a couple of shows, just to see how he does. His sire was a CODI buck and a TANK. I'm not sure if he would count as a paint, he's got red splotches all over his front legs.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

Tenacross said:


> Sydney, there is no reason not to think your doe will make a good brood doe. I hope you will show her come next spring and summer. I don't know if your doe will place well or not. The competition is pretty tough, but you shouldn't let that stop you.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with how Sydney's doe looks in that picture, but this doe is a perfect example of a doe I could make look like she has a longer more feminine neck with the clippers. And I'm not even that good with the clippers.


Oh I sure she'll make a good brood doe. It will however be interesting to see how she places... Since she isn't super long and super feminine. I will breed her to a buck that will hopefully give her kids some length and a bit more levelness in the hip.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Even if that long look is partially due to clipping, they wouldn't clip them like that except that's the look that wins, which means people will try to breed them for conformation like that and then clip to exaggerate it.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

The perfect milk goat is also the perfect show goat. There are those who breed for one or the other but a National champion level goat will be the best of both.


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## SunnydaleBoers (Jul 28, 2012)

zebradreams07 said:


> except that's the look that wins, which means people will try to breed them for conformation like that and then clip to exaggerate it.


And at the end of the day that is how conformation shows work- doesn't matter if you're showing a Pekingese or a goat or a zebra. One judge picks one animal, praises the hell out of a certain feature, the next judge at the next show does the same thing, and all of a sudden all of the entries are showing up with that one extra special feature emphasized. There is no reason to believe that said feature has any actual performance value attached, but all of a sudden our animals all have to have it.

We're human though- I suppose you could say our major behavioral trait is that given a choice we like to win!


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

TDG-Farms said:


> The perfect milk goat is also the perfect show goat. There are those who breed for one or the other but a National champion level goat will be the best of both.


Makes sense to me.


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