# Help Please.... Doe rejecting babes



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Mom had twins a few hours ago. Initially allowed them to nurse but then began to butt them hard away from her. At one point had one of the babes pinned between her horns & stall wall. I took babes from mom & trying to get them to take bottle. Need suggestions to get them to latch on.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

I have babes safe & sound with me. They are warm & dry. I raced to feed store & purchased Uni-milk as well as some lamb nipples that attach to soda bottles. The babes are fumbling and resistive to the plastic nipples. How do I get them to take it?.... I have opened thereof this and placed bottle in,.. They suck a little but not much. I held them until they fell asleep. Held close to my face and they tried to latch on to my chin/cheek. If I could just get them to take a bottle I'm sure they would be fine. Help!!!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Tie up mom, tie up one back leg, so she cannot kick the kids or you. Milk out just enough so she isn't so tight.(feed to the kids to ensure first colostrum).

When a Doe kids, they are really tight and sore, some might not allow their kids to nurse. If we milk out just enough, she won' t be as sore and will except the kids. Make her feed them, is she a First time mom?

Go out every couple of hours and feed them, even through the night, tie up momma, if she is being difficult (each time), until she accepts them. Leave her and the babies in a bonding pen with no other goats. Put out a heat lamp if they need it.

If she is being super mean, after you milk her out a little, ( make sure her teat plugs are cleared from each side) 

use your best judgment with them, if they should be in with her or not. 

Good luck and congrats on the new little ones.


----------



## FlyingFeetsFarm (Nov 28, 2012)

Are they standard sized kids or minis? For standard kids I use the black lamb nipples and for minis I use human baby bottles with regular nipples, I usually have to cut the holes to make them a little bigger on all nipples. Do not feed them milk replacer, milk the doe and make sure they get enough colostrum and if you don't feel like milking the doe give them whole cows milk that you can buy at the grocery store. Milk replacer in my opinion is terrible and they tend to get scours and just always seem to be stunted when raised on it, I have had plenty of luck on whole cows milk.


----------



## FlyingFeetsFarm (Nov 28, 2012)

Also newborns only take about an half an ounce to an ounce every couple of hours.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

When I got my little guys it took them a day or so to get the hang of it. I used the Prichard Teat nipples and you do need to cut off the tip so the milk can flow. Do you milk the doe? I would think maybe even trying to put her milk in the bottle, or just a small container to have them lick it. I did that too with my guys as well, until they figured out I was mom

Good luck with the little ones. Did the get enough colostrum from the mom? That's sad she's mean to them


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

I checked both her Teets,. Milk flowing just fine,.. She just wanted nothing to do with babes. It his is her third time delivering kids so relatively a pro I would think. She was very aggressive. I have an eye dropper and giving babes milk now. This was very odd for her to behave that way. I placed babes to Teets and made th get colostrum.


----------



## FlyingFeetsFarm (Nov 28, 2012)

I would suggest feeding the colostrum to the babies for a couple of days then slowly mixing the mothers milk with cows milk. Scours in babies can be deadly.


----------



## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

Pam nailed it. I was going to say to tie up mom and I hold a back leg so she can't kick them.

Also if there is any discharge on mom, take some of it and put it on the babies head and butt. Keep up with mom and baby. If you don't and you decide on bottle feeding, like Pam said you HAVE to get the colostrum to the baby from mom to give them a good start.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes standard size kids. She was butting them do hard they would run from her, cower down & scream. Will play it my ear with momma in the morning but for now have babes indoors and they are taking milk from dropper, will put milk on nipple and see if they will take that then. Will also milk mom in the morning.


----------



## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I would not wait until morning to get the colostrum from mom. The babies need it for the first 24 hours. Milk her out and have it inside to give to the babies. Warm it with hot water, not the microwave.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes I agree, made certain babes got the colostrum from momma,.. I was with all of them from birth and for about 5 hours after. I'm pretty sure they got the colostrum. I made momma nurse them as I could tell things were not going well.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Ok thank you I will go out and milk her now. Thank you so much.


----------



## FlyingFeetsFarm (Nov 28, 2012)

I have a friend that had a doe do this and what she ended up doing was making a separator where the mom could still see the babies and she went out there every couple hours and forced the doe to feed her babies and eventually she started to let the nurse. 

Also are you sure the doe isn't in pain? Has she passed the afterbirth, or could there possibly be another kid in her? It is very odd for a doe to reject their babies like that. In the past I have had does butt their kids in-between each kid because they were in pain.


----------



## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

The babies need at very least 4oz colostrum each. I agree to milk mom out and raise them on her milk if you can. If you cant switch them over very slowly.


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Pritchard nipples!!!! Lol. Black lamb nipples are just awful..kids don't like them and its harder to teach them. I LOVE the pritchard nipples. And I've heard mixed things about replacer...it seems that it really depends on the brand. Some I've heard will outright kill kids, where-as others have reputations for stunting growth and others have shining reviews...but I can't remember which is attached to which because I always use goat's milk. If you can milk mom and just give her milk to the kid's instead that would be the most natural, but more work all around. Or as others have suggested...tie her up and force her to feed them at regular intervals.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Milked mom, got enough for the night... That was fun... Not!!!.... She had cleaned both of them passed the last of the afterbirth and through all of this could have been overwhelmed???... When I milked her she seemed to be looking and calling for the babes,.. I may take them back up there and see how she takes to them now... Gosh I just hate this ... It's so hard to know the right thing to do.


----------



## FlyingFeetsFarm (Nov 28, 2012)

I would definitely try to see if she will take them again, just watch her really close.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Thank you I will,... Will take iPhone with me so I can report or ask questions to those of you who have been so helpful


----------



## FlyingFeetsFarm (Nov 28, 2012)

I am hoping for the best and crossing my fingers she will take them back.


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Aww I'm so sorry your going through this  
Did she have a hard delivery, where she might be in some pain? Maybe some pain meds if so?
I wonder what made her want to reject them, animals confuse me sometimes.

Did she kid with you before, or someone else?

I have to agree with Pam and Lori though, I'd tie her up, tie a back leg and make her feed them every few hours, if she were mine. IMO, especially if they are not pets, they have to pull their weight, and that means they have to take care of their babies no matter what. Even if it means forcing them to provide for their babies. Because feeding and caring for mom, then having to buy milk for the baby, I can imagine will be very costly.
Be consistant, patient, and don't get discouraged. 

I hope she relaxes and decides to accept them.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes she kidded with me before this past spring. That dang male goat of ours got too her sooner than I wanted and this little darlings were the result. She did amazing this time,.. No long delays,.. Very little straining,.. Both born back to back with about 10 minutes between.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Well that did not go well at all... She heard them crying,.. I set them down in front of her after putting a little of the secretions on their head and bottoms. She sniffed them,.. Snorted at them then smacked of on the head and rolled the other one. It's below zero tonight with wind chill. Momma is in barn but still chilly. I can try and medicate her in the morning after she rests through the night. Maybe she will settle down. If not I will tie her back and let babes nurse directly from her. There is no problem with her milk production. I was surprised how well it flowed, I was wondering if one of her Teets were blocked, but know they are fine, warm not hot or inflamed. One thing I noticed she seemed more concerned about the twins she kidded in the spring, they about 8 months now and fully weined. Will keep the little babes warm & fed tonight using Mommas milk.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

When you say "Milk her out". Do you mean milk her until there is no more milk coming out?.... I prob could have gotten more from her but felt I had just enough for the babes through the night and plan to milk mom again first thing in the morning. Thanks again for all your help. Babes are sleeping so I think I'll get some rest until next feeding.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Going to tie momma up and let babes nurse, after their full going to milk her for back up milk to keep on hand. Started another thread asking what kind of OVER the COUNTER pain med can I give momma if she is in pain. Looks like ibuprofen is the way to go, no aspirin as she is still bleeding. Anyone have a good Idea as to how much?


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

ARe you positive she was done kidding? The only time I have had a mature doe act like that is if they still have a kid in them. 
Were you with her when she kidded? Did she lick them and clean them off? Sorry, if this was already asked and I missed it.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes she cleaned them,.. Afterbirth passed,.. Just got back from taking babies to her for feeding,.. She didn't want to feed them so we tied her and put babes under her,.. One if them nursed real well, the other tried but had a hard time finding teet, I helped it and it got a few good sucks. Then milked about a 3/4 of a quart. Enough for until mid day and then some. Will milk her again this afternoon. It is clear she does not want them this morning. I even put secretions from the delivery on the babes this morning momma didn't go for it.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

I called feed store they have Pritchett nipples & bottles.. Yay!!.... Lamb nipples were too big so was using an eye dropper to get milk down. Geesh!!


----------



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

If she is still hard to handle to milk out..lift also one front leg..she can not kick or move much on two legs...One back leg then opposite front...Its always best to use goats milk to feed them but if you cannot..do not buy the replacer..instead get whole milk from the store. On bottle feeding..it is very unnatural for them to nurse a bottle so patients is very important. Put a towel on your lap and lay the baby on his tummy over your legs..front legs ahead and back legs tucked..always lift the head so the "throat door" closes and milk goes into tummy and not lungs..does not need to be lifted up too high...coax the nipple at the side of the mouth and gently push in mouth...if needed..pulse the bottle to get milk going...once the baby taste the milk he should suck..if not keep pulsing the bottle getting milk on his mouth and be sure he is swallowing... feed until his tummy is full but not tight and place him in a warm draft free area...then feed his sibling. : ) good luck...


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Aww I'm so sorry mom is still being a meannie  I wish we could understand their reasons, especially if they've been good moms in the past.
You said she was more concerned about her older twins, can she see or hear them? If so any way to get them completely away from her? I know it's hard and not something I could easily do with our small place, but thought I'd mention that.

I'd definitely keep putting them on her and let them get their bellies full and get the milk from her so you don't have to pay out of pocket as I mentioned before. I know it can get very expensive buying milk as they get older.


----------



## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> Tie up mom, tie up one back leg, so she cannot kick the kids or you. Milk out just enough so she isn't so tight.(feed to the kids to ensure first colostrum).
> 
> When a Doe kids, they are really tight and sore, some might not allow their kids to nurse. If we milk out just enough, she won' t be as sore and will except the kids. Make her feed them, is she a First time mom?
> 
> ...





firelight27 said:


> Pritchard nipples!!!! Lol. Black lamb nipples are just awful..kids don't like them and its harder to teach them. I LOVE the pritchard nipples. And I've heard mixed things about replacer...it seems that it really depends on the brand. Some I've heard will outright kill kids, where-as others have reputations for stunting growth and others have shining reviews...but I can't remember which is attached to which because I always use goat's milk. If you can milk mom and just give her milk to the kid's instead that would be the most natural, but more work all around. Or as others have suggested...tie her up and force her to feed them at regular intervals.


A lot of people have made a lot of very good points and I agree. Tied mom and either try to let the kids nurse or milk her out to use the milk in feeding the kids by bottle.

Yes there are certain milk replacers that are known for killing kids and causing bloat. (The Sav-A-Kid brand was actually known for killing kids but I had used it before in a 50/50 ratio just fine but I may have just been lucky. I have used the TSC Dumor brand before in a 50/50 ratio and it appeared to work just fine. I also used a brand from the Co-op I think it was called Land o Lakes brand and Manno Pro before all in 50/50 ratio with real goat milk.) If I have to use milk replacer I normally mix it half and half with real goats milk from the herd or if push comes to shove using store bought whole cows milk (sometimes half cows half goats milk or if you need to do half replacer half cows milk if a doe doesn't produce enough can be done too). Just remember that any changes in milk ratio levels can produces some loose stool to scours (example you go from straight goats milk to half and half goat/replacer or goat/cow, so always make a little change at a time). If I have to bottle feed a baby I mix a dose of probios into one bottle feeding a day to be sure to keep their tummies happy and scour free. I keep a tub of the Probios powder on hand as you can use it in all the animals so I just put the powder dose into the bottle and shake it up good.

Yes the pritchard nipples are great for newborns and smaller breeds but with my nubians I will either start with a pritchnard nipple or one of the soft "swan bill" type nipples that I have only been able to find through http://hoeggerfarmyard.com/xcart/Pop-Bottle-Nipples.html They have a small hole (not an x) and I heat up an 18 G needle to make the hole opening a bit bigger for my older more seasoned bottle kids.

With getting them just started on the bottle sometimes you will need to place your hand over their eyes to get them started. I always tried to hold the bottle in one hand and let my thumb pad area of palm cover an eye and you may need to move the nipple as mentioned above.

Hope this helps and hope she decides that she does want them.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Got Pritchett nipples yay! Actually mom did not resist me milking her at all,.. Just put halter on her and tied off to keep her from running around. Going to get bottles ready for babes. Also got some molasses for a reward to momma,.. A warm tea


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

I mean Pritchard nipples. Don't think it will take long for them to get the hang of this. The se more satisfied & playful.


----------



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Just to let you know too, just incase you have to stop milking her, as the mom's milk is best for the kids so I would definitely keep doing what you are doing if it was me. I know there has been quite a few reports that milk replacement kills baby goats, but that really isn't true. I used Advantage brand, mixed it with a lactaid pill, and some probiotic powder and they did great. My little guys (now big guys) wouldn't touch cows milk. Just an FYI for you I'm glad they are catching on to the Pritchard teats, maybe mom will come around soon..... Have fun with the little ones


----------



## JaLyn (Oct 10, 2012)

I just use whole cows milk from the grocery store when i didn't have goats milk..


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Thanks for all your help gang. I just got back from milking mom again. Nowhere near as much as I got this morning. I got about 3/4 of a quart. I have Nigerian Dwarf goats. Not sure if that's a good amount for a days milking for this breed. Will milk again in the morning and see how much we get. I'm refrigerating the milk, then putting about 2 ounces in bottle. Placing bottle in large coffee cup. Heating water on the stove then pouring it into coffee cup. Was afraid plastic bottles would melt in pan. Seems to be a good system. Once again,.. Thank you


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am sorry she didn't want them.


----------



## critergiter09 (Jan 4, 2012)

Last spring I got a 3 day old pygmy bottle baby the owners did not want him as he was born with only 3 hooves. We got him and he had a respiratory infection and took him to the vet and got it all cleared up. Our vet told us not to use cows milk. So we started him on unimilk. I only used about 3/4 of the powder it called for and he did great. He actually grew alot faster than my friends goat kidds she had pygmy goats one as a bottle baby on manna pro lambs milk and one still on mom. The one that was on the lambs milk had a case of the "poops" but she got that cleared up and still Didn't grow as fast as my bottle baby. He was growing at the same rate as the one who was still drinking from mom. It may have been luck though. But ive not had any problems with uni milk from tsc.


----------



## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

I've been told by vet's not to give straight up cow's milk either because the make up isn't correct for what a goat kid needs. Something about not having enough fat, etc. The make-up of goat's milk IS very different than a cow in regards to fat/protein, etc... so I can see that making sense. Most goat milk replacer recipes call for the whole cow's milk mixed with buttermilk and evaporated milk, etc. Like this one:

http://www.roosterridgeboergoats.com/goats-milk-replacer-rcipe


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

So far momma is letting me milk her and I'm getting plenty for babes. The runt is still learning to take to the bottle a little slower than its twin. She definitely has it all figured out,.. Little piglet.. Lol. I think I'm getting plenty in the buckling runt. I just keep working with him. . How can I post a pic of them ?? ... I communicating via my IPHONE. Thanks


----------



## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

To post a pic with your phone, when you reply you find the little + sign and then touch either attach from camera or from photos. Attach from camera means you take the photo now, attach from photos lets you upload any photo from your library. 
When youve chosen it, it will come up down the bottom of that page, touch it and press "insert inline" and viola, a picture!


----------



## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Sorry I didn't mean to post that photo haha I uploaded it to see exactly what the words were so I didn't get messed up with my instructions, oops


----------



## KarmakeeFarm (Jun 3, 2012)

Cherioneal-use the Prittchards on soda bottles in hot tap water-thats warm enough


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Glad it is going well  Keep up the good work.


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Say Hello to Jack & Jill


----------



## cherioneal (Jan 3, 2013)

Me feeding them


----------



## critergiter09 (Jan 4, 2012)

So cute! Glad they are doing good!


----------

