# Opinions please?



## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Okay, I have 2, 6 year old Nubian/Lamancha girls. They did not get pregnant running with a Nigerian buck the year before I got them, and I had them run with a kinder buck from Nov-April this past season, and nothing. One girl had some health issues, clearing all those up now, hopefully. They have been difficult come hoof trimming time, but I found out how to do that a bit differently as to not totally stress them or me out.... I was going to use the lute shot, but I want things done naturally. I now have an oberhasli buckling 5 months and he will be bigger, and is already bigger then my kinder. My whole purpose in getting these girls was for milking them. Do you think another season with them is worth a shot, or should I cut my losses and move on? A previous owner has offered to pay $100.00 cash and $100.00 worth of vet services such as blood draws etc... I'm really on the fence, as I would like to get some kids out of them, milk them for a few months and then sell them.... But is it worth 1 more try?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

First I have done so much looking I to on the lute thing. From what I gather and could be wrong since I have never tried is the shot of lute alone will bring a goat into heat but unless there is a egg ready to drop will not do any good. I looked at the whole process of bringing a goqt into heat and is not overly cheap. 
Now as for my 2cents. Do you want kids from them to keep or simply the milk??? If you want kids from them I would give another shot if you really really want kids from them. If only milk well another goat can produce milk.
Now for a little story lol love my story's  I have a doe that I love everything about her and really want kids from her and keep her. I will have her for a year in a few weeks and never saw her even come into heat and never has gave me a kid even though I run my buck with the does all year long. She has had kids in the past from looking at her bag. So I did a little searching and found lack of selenium will make them infertal. I gave her a Bose shot and am pleased to say she came into heat a few weeks ago. Not saying its a for sure thing on your part but worth looking into.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Jessica84 said:


> First I have done so much looking I to on the lute thing. From what I gather and could be wrong since I have never tried is the shot of lute alone will bring a goat into heat but unless there is a egg ready to drop will not do any good. I looked at the whole process of bringing a goqt into heat and is not overly cheap.
> Now as for my 2cents. Do you want kids from them to keep or simply the milk??? If you want kids from them I would give another shot if you really really want kids from them. If only milk well another goat can produce milk.
> Now for a little story lol love my story's  I have a doe that I love everything about her and really want kids from her and keep her. I will have her for a year in a few weeks and never saw her even come into heat and never has gave me a kid even though I run my buck with the does all year long. She has had kids in the past from looking at her bag. So I did a little searching and found lack of selenium will make them infertal. I gave her a Bose shot and am pleased to say she came into heat a few weeks ago. Not saying its a for sure thing on your part but worth looking into.


I do want kids from them, the milk for a few months would be nice too, but I do want kids. I was considering getting Replamin plus for them. So maybe that will help with the selenium, if that's the problem.... Hmmm, I guess it's worth another shot... Thanks for the info!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Jessica84 said:


> First I have done so much looking I to on the lute thing. From what I gather and could be wrong since I have never tried is the shot of lute alone will bring a goat into heat but unless there is a egg ready to drop will not do any good. I looked at the whole process of bringing a goqt into heat and is not overly cheap.
> Now as for my 2cents. Do you want kids from them to keep or simply the milk??? If you want kids from them I would give another shot if you really really want kids from them. If only milk well another goat can produce milk.
> Now for a little story lol love my story's  I have a doe that I love everything about her and really want kids from her and keep her. I will have her for a year in a few weeks and never saw her even come into heat and never has gave me a kid even though I run my buck with the does all year long. She has had kids in the past from looking at her bag. So I did a little searching and found lack of selenium will make them infertal. I gave her a Bose shot and am pleased to say she came into heat a few weeks ago. Not saying its a for sure thing on your part but worth looking into.


By the way, you said you run your bucks and does together? I swore I would never do that again, but I am letting them run together during the day, because I kind of feel bad for the bucks, since they don't have much pasture. Eventually they will all be together again for the winter... I keep a close eye on everyone so I think I will know when things happen I figured they would run together from September to March, and then separate after that for few months, and maybe by next year I will have another pen set up for the bucks. You don't have any issues with it?


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

I agree with Jessica, other does will give you milk. Since you want kids from them, how about a kid back agreement? I also agree about the selenium. Breeding season is fast approaching sooner with the selenium the better.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If they are low in selenium, then you need to give them BoSe or the Selenium/E gel. Copper and selenium need to be good when breeding. If one or both of them is the reason why the girls aren't getting pregnant, then you need to do a BoSe shot or do a copper bolus. While I love the Replamin Plus and use it on a regular basis, I don't trust that it will take care of a selenium or copper deficiency.

You may or may not see that a breeding happened. I rented a buck for a month. I saw breedings happen at the beginning of the month. I saw nothing happen nor any indications that anything happened at the end of the month. When my girls gave birth ended up going back to breedings happening at the end of the month. So you won't necessarily know if breeding happened or not.

I would not be counting on a 5 month old to take care of problem breeders. If you are going to do things naturally, then you need an adult proven buck. The longer they go without breeding and getting pregnant, the harder it is going to be to get them pregnant.

I would probably seriously consider the offer from the former owners. It sounds like it is time to really investigate and start figuring out why they aren't getting pregnant. That would probably include using a CIDR or Lute along with doing selenium and copper.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

You want milk and you want babies.
You're having trouble getting them pregnant. 
One isn't healthy
You have a hard time working them (hooves etc)
You have an offer to sell them to a good home.

I know it won't get you milk but can you make a deal with your friend that you get a doeling instead of money?

If you're willing to work at it and possibly still not get them healthy or pregnant then I'd say keep them and give it a go. If you're attached to them and like them despite their faults and are ok if you never get milk or babies, keep them. If you want to move on to an easier goat I say take the money and get a new goat. If you really really want the babies, then wait for her to breed them though, knowing this may take her a while if it happens at all.

I think this is a personal decision but since you're asking for opinions I'll keep sharing mine. Honestly, if I wasn't super attached to them, and I had a good home for them to go to, I'd let the person take them. If the home was less than ideal, I'd keep them regardless of how much I liked/disliked them.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> If they are low in selenium, then you need to give them BoSe or the Selenium/E gel. Copper and selenium need to be good when breeding. If one or both of them is the reason why the girls aren't getting pregnant, then you need to do a BoSe shot or do a copper bolus. While I love the Replamin Plus and use it on a regular basis, I don't trust that it will take care of a selenium or copper deficiency.
> 
> You may or may not see that a breeding happened. I rented a buck for a month. I saw breedings happen at the beginning of the month. I saw nothing happen nor any indications that anything happened at the end of the month. When my girls gave birth ended up going back to breedings happening at the end of the month. So you won't necessarily know if breeding happened or not.
> 
> ...


I do already copper bolus, so perhaps I could do the vit E gel, with selenium, and the Replamin plus. I'm trying to avoid shots on the one girl because she had had so many already with the LA 200 (hoof scald) and the penicillin. Even though I'm getting better at giving them it's still a hassle for the both of us. If it was the other girl I wouldn't hesitate.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

AmyBoogie said:


> You want milk and you want babies.
> You're having trouble getting them pregnant.
> One isn't healthy
> You have a hard time working them (hooves etc)
> ...


The home they might be going might not be a good one really. When I got them from the people I bought them from they were already in poor shape, since I was new to goats I did not know that. I was told from the lady who wants to buy them that she had them for a 2 years, and the people I bought them from had them for a year. Well the bill of sale that the people I bought them from gave to me stated Feb 14, 2012 I bought them in May 2012, and an "registered" paperwork/bill of sales states only a year, forgot the dates she had them. She lost her home and farm at that time, so she sold all of her animals, these 2 girls in poor condition being among them. So in knowing that, I'm not sure if it is an ideal situation, she is already starting to have money issues again. So that is why I'm leaning towards just keeping them no matter what happens.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> If they are low in selenium, then you need to give them BoSe or the Selenium/E gel. Copper and selenium need to be good when breeding. If one or both of them is the reason why the girls aren't getting pregnant, then you need to do a BoSe shot or do a copper bolus. While I love the Replamin Plus and use it on a regular basis, I don't trust that it will take care of a selenium or copper deficiency.
> 
> You may or may not see that a breeding happened. I rented a buck for a month. I saw breedings happen at the beginning of the month. I saw nothing happen nor any indications that anything happened at the end of the month. When my girls gave birth ended up going back to breedings happening at the end of the month. So you won't necessarily know if breeding happened or not.
> 
> ...


I have the kinder buck still, and he is proven, he just turned 2 last month. He's actually fairly tall for being a kinder.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

Knowing what you just said up there - I'd keep them. I'd give them all the herbal meds and vitamins to see about getting them healthy. Then I'd have them to visit a mature and sexy buck (that they thought was sexy) through every heat til it took. And if it didn't take this year, I'd let them be hay burners but try to find them a good pet home (unless I became attached, then I'd keep them).


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I like to have kids and income all year long. I also don't want to miss a heat if I were to only keep a buck out for a few months. For the most part I know when everyone is due. It gets a little crazy during breeding season when most come into heat so during that time I just slap a breeding harness on. But I'm here every day so nothing gets past me .
I guess I missed the part where the one buck is only 5 months old. That is a little young to totally count on him to do the job. But this is kinda confusing me.....the chance that both does are no good. I mean 2 out of 2??? Are you sure the kinder buck is any good??? Is there a way you can get your hands on a buck that is old enough and big enough then sell after the deed is done?? I would still go with the vatamin shot thing you said above. I would also since it doesn't sound like your very attached to these girls keep you eye out for one or two that are like this girls that have what your liking about these girls. But still having a hard time with the 2 out of 2 thing unless there is something wrong with the place you got them from that would make them unfertal like a sickness.......I guess weigh your pros and cons


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

I kinda doubt both of them are infertile. That would just be weird. If they were mine I would probably try again, then if nothing sell to a pet home or keep and just understand they are pets. (I get attached) I really have doubts that both are infertile though.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If your girls were here, I would be giving them a BoSe shot and doing Replamin Plus once a week along with good feed and hay.


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

On top of what Karen said, (and I'm not as experienced as her of course) but I'd also give them immune support (maybe just to the sickly one, you know your goats) And also doing regular fecals to keep on top of any parasites that might be making them difficult to be well. http://store.firmeadowllc.com/produ...d=175&osCsid=8030b5fd66471a9df68386860ebfb6f9

Has the weather started to cool there? Like, are they starting to come in heat? I notice my alpine was a little randy the other day.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Well you guys have a point with questioning wether they are both Infertile. The kinder buck is proven, as I have his son that I wethered a few weeks ago. He also serviced a Nubian doe in January, and she had triplets. So he's proven. I am rather attached to them, since they were my first goats, and I have honestly learned a ton since I got them. So, maybe I will give it another go, and see what happens I have ordered the Replamin plus, and will get the vit e selenium gel at the store today. I'll finish up the worming treatment, and penicillin first at least on the one, then start everything else. They can be a pain, but for the most part they are good girls, and I have begun mastering trimming their hooves without wanting to kill them or them me... Thanks all for the responses


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## Patricia-Meyer (Nov 4, 2012)

Just wanted to emphasize again the selenium and copper. Do you give a loose mineral made for goats free choice? This is very important. If it were me, I'd give some Selenium /E gel and dose them with COWP (copper oxide wire particles). The bucks should also get some of each, as they also need them to help with fertility and general health. The copper dose is 2 grams/20 lbs. The selenium/E gel is I think 5mL. Neither of these things will hurt them if they're not deficient, as they aren't absorbed as quickly or as well as an injected form of a supplement. However, they can work wonders if the goats are deficient. Best wished for a prolific breeding season and lots of milk!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Okay, here is a new plan I drew up for the big girls especially, but my other breeding girls, and bucks will get some of this as well. My vet gets back at the end if the month, I will have him run a fecal sample on both does, as I am treating for lung/hook worms just to make sure everything is cleared out. I will talk to him about the BoSe shots too. I will then start vitamin e/selenium jell and Replamin plus once a week, others will get this as well. I have sheep and so I have them on loose minerals for both sheep and goats. Since the girls and other goats are in separate pens at night, I will replace the minerals in the barn for manna pro minerals/ and during the day they can have the other stuff. At the moment I'm feeding Noble goat dairy parlor, but I think the goat chow is a little higher in the vitamins. I will continue to copper bolus every 3 months. Does this sound like a good plan? I won't mind if they just become pets I guess, cause they do a lot of eating the brush, so they are good for something in that respect. 

It hasn't gotten cold yet Amy, cooler yes, but my bucks appear to be ready


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds like a good start. Once you get those vitamin and mineral levels up, you can go from there. Also making sure they are healthy and parasite free (at least enough that their system can handle it).

You will need to look at the Selenium/E gel and see what the directions are. I don't know if that should be given once a week.

Definitely once a week for the Replamin Plus.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Oh good grief... Someone else just emailed me to see if the girls are for sale. She has a petting zoo, and brush clearing goats. She is well aware now that one is sickly, but still would like them. She isn't interested on breeding them really, and I could go see them at the zoo anytime... I'm considering it.. She offered me $100 for both, but I'm still considering it. She seems to know goats but so does the other lady.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm sure you will do what is best for them.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

They are staying... Due to the fact that they have moved around so often, and they are great brush eaters, I'm going to keep them. I've already put much time and effort into them, not to mention money. So even if they do become just pets then that will be okay.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, I'm happy to report both of them might be bred I say might, but I have never seen Daisie in heat and she was definitely acting a bit strange, looking over at the bucks pen, and wagging her tail... No bawling though. I let the buck in and there was definite contact there and she stood I marked it on the calendar... Rosie could have been bred 8/7.... I thought their bawling might be due to all the excitement because I had another doe in labor in the barn at that time... But she did stand.... and I don't think she's come back into heat... So here's hoping..... I'll take blood tests most likely in November to make sure..., but that would be sooo cool


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## Patricia-Meyer (Nov 4, 2012)

Hooray! Can't wait for the good news.


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