# Does she look somewhar close-ish?



## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

She was bred in the end of feb / beginning of march. If I count 150 days from when she was first with the buck that put her at August 1....she was with him for 3 weeks, but I suspect her heat was around a week in. She started filling her udder about a month ago. These are some pics this morning...she looks like she's starting to hollow by her hip bones a little. Lig checks don't work on her, I think I've only ever been able to feel them twice. Kids start back to school this week and it's going to be nuts....hoping she goes in the next day or two when I'll be home a little more. Udder isn't strutted, but I know that can happen very close to the actual birth. Any thoughts....?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I don't think she looks super close, but it's hard to tell. Sorry I'm not more help.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Has her udder just begun to fill?


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

No, it's been like this for several weeks now....she was dried off about a month before she was bred, and her udder was very small up until about a month ago. It's been slowly enlarging over the last month-ish. Today it feels more firm, but certainly not yet full. I think I'm going to shave her back side this evening...I'm sure I'll be able to take better photos after she's cleaned up.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Id say you got a month left.


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

Gosh, for her sake I hope you're wrong, lol! She's so waddly and huffy puffy trying to get up the hill to our house already, i think she'll burst if she goes another month!


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

TDG-Farms said:


> Id say you got a month left.


I agree.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I do agree with a month


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

Oh, my poor girl....I hope she's got more than one in there!


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I'd say two-three. Might consider making a sling ( lol ) for her udder if it gets any bigger.... I'd be worried about it getting caught on something on the ground..


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

Well sice she was with him for 3 weeks she has to be due in the next 2 weeks.


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

I need to pull out my binder and do a date count. Thinking about it, there's no way it could be another month unless it was an immaculate conception....you'd think I'd have counted and marked it down straight off - I do know I wrote down the dates she was with the buck though.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

To me, her udder makes it look really close. But her girly area doesn't... I guess we'll just have to wait and see? :shrug: :scratch:


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Speaking of udder, that goat could use a bra  Or socks! hehe


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

TDG-Farms said:


> Speaking of udder, that goat could use a bra  Or socks! hehe


:laugh: that's what I was thinking too.


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

These will be her first babies with us. The woman I got her from said she's had several sets of twins and is a really good milker. I suppose that might explain the very large udder, lol!


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

It looks like she has a few in there! She is still carrying very wide. When she is getting closer you will look at her one day and think how thin she looks because the kids will move into position. I don't think she has a month left, but I don't think she is going to kid this weekend.


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

One of my girls is very interested in watching her progress (said daughter is 8 and wants to be a vet) so she and I went out just now to check on her. So cool, she's so full of babies that you can see the legs moving around on the side of her belly! We touched, and could feel all of the little knees and hooves - I swear her belly had corners from stretched out limbs! No matter how many babies we have - in any form - it's still so amazing to me. I still can't drag myself away from the incubator on hatch day and we've had chickens for years!


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Thats great she is interested. Having goats has enriched our lives. Think of the lessons we learn. Responsibilty, sex-ed, pregnancy/birth, health, illness, death...


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

I know, I love what it's done for our kids too. All of the animals....we set up incubators in our elementary kids classrooms (three in elementary right now) and teach the kids about how the chicks grow and hatch - I have so much fun doing that! My four year old comes with me and helps, and he can candle an egg like a pro! It's so fun y seeing him sit down and check each one.....good, good - see the veins?, good, oops this one is a dud. The goats have made the birds and bees convos go so much easier and more naturally with all six kids, because we start out talking about what they see with the goats, then carry it over to humans. And witnessing the birth of our last goat baby just blew them away!


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## dizzygal04 (Jun 6, 2013)

im super excited for you...i hope she goes soon for you! keep us updated with her status


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

Nothing happening here, although my husband said today that she looks sunken in above her belly, near her spine - he's the most unobservant man on the planet, so for him to notice a change is saying something. I'm hoping she gives me a few days - we had a somewhat unexpected family death today, one daughter put into a cast, one son with diarrhea from hell, and just way too much on my plate - which means she'll go into labor tonight, no doubt.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

Yikes, I hope not for your sake!! So sorry. :hug:


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

Well, you all were right, lol! We're still hanging out, waiting for babies. Today I've decided to take the ignore her completely approach....her belly is amazing, it looks like waves in the ocean, all moving and pushing out, and pulling in. Here are a couple of pics from this morning....


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I say the udder is what makes it look farther out 3-4 weeks. She looks happy. Hope you have beautiful babies.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

She is huge! Lol, and I can't even see her teats, never seen an udder like that before.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

Is she talking to her babies? She will make soft little mommy noises before they are born.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

Are taking bets on how many are in there? I think quads


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## erica4481 (Mar 26, 2013)

I think 2 maybe 3


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

I'm ready to start a pool - when (because at this point I have no clue), how many, and gender(s).


I do know that we've passed the time that I thought she was bred. If she was bred when I saw her last heat the babies would be about two weeks old now. I didn't notice another heat after that, and I didn't actually see her being bred - I know a time or two our escape artist boy made it to her though. Her small udder started expanding and filling about six or more weeks ago. I really, really thought she was going to have them two weeks ago.

So, guess away! Guess a date, number of kids, and gender.....whomever is closest wins a prize! I'll start with the guesses with the correct date....then number of kids. If we're still tied we'll go to genders. Winner picks the prize - I canned a ton of strawberry jam, or will crochet a dish cloth and towel set in your choice of colors. If I have to keep waiting I might as well make it fun, lol!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

There are 3 in there. 2 good sized ones and 1 smaller one. The smaller one will be second born and will the girl. The other two will be boys. You can seen my price to...


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

It *might* be the day. I dreamed that she'd had twin doelings and then prolapsed, and I was running for my box to save her. Woke up and felt the need to check on her, and her udder looks larger (to me) than it did last night, and she has a tiny bit of discharge. I fed and let them out, and we can her her outside of our bedroom window...she's usually pretty quiet but she's talking a lot, and making a sound we haven't heard before - talking to babies? :huh: We'll see...


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Sounds like baby talk. I think quads 2 of each.


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## emilieanne (Oct 15, 2012)

She's gunna go the 23rd with two girls and a boy(; girls are gunna come first.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

Ok i say quads on the 20th 2 of each


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

We left for two hours because I couldn't just sit and stare.  got home and her teats are swelling, she's still talking a lot, still a small amount of discharge. She's not eating, just sort of wandering around and talking. Going to go get the kidding pen ready soon....this is only our second kidding - how long does it usually take from this point, if this is really it?


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

It could still be a couple of days, it's hard to say, they're all different. :/
I say triplets, two boys and a girl, on Saturday evening or Sunday morning.


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

One buckling, must have been 7 or 8 pounds. She pushed for over and hour with nothing. I went in, made sure positioning was correct, and pulled. Wouldn't budge. I had three people calling every vet in a 100 mile radius and no one could come, but it was too late anyway. I lost my sweet Belle. We did our own c-section to try to save the kid but it was too late. He was just so, so huge, he never would have fit. My hand is purple and swollen from pulling so hard against her bones. I'm just so sick right now. We just finished burying her. I'm heartbroken. It's isn't fair.


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

Oh my! I am so very very sorry. I hate this for you and Belle and the buckling.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I am so sorry for your loss. And a 7 or 8 pound ND is freaking crazy! Thats the typical size of a standard dairy goat baby...


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

Short story is that the buckling was huge - around 7 or8 pounds I'd guess. She pushed for over an hour. Her discharge at that point was pretty much pure blood. I went in, found two hooves and a mouth, and attempted to pull. A piece of unknown tissue came out (will get to that later). The kid wouldn't budge. We called our farm vet, who happened to be in Florida. He gave us a number to call, and the vet tried to walk me through pulling and different maneuvers, and nothing. He was about 90 minutes away, and by then Belle was fading, we'd been working on her for two hours. She died, Vince got a scalpel out of my box and told me to leave (we had two close friends with us at that point, a married couple, they stayed with him). He sectioned her, but the kid was gone. They tried CPR on it, but nothing. I came back, and on closer examination of Belle, it appears that her uterus had ruptured near the cervix, probably explaining all of the blood. The kid wouldn't have fit through her pelvic bones - my 220 pound husband couldn't pull it through using everything he had. There was no vet near enough to do a section, and she would have bled out anyway - we looked at that first piece of tissue and it was either a piece of bowel or something attached to bowel. She died with my hands inside of her. I know there was nothing we could have done - I did everything to the point of injuring myself trying to get that baby out. I read every piece of literature I could find online about difficult births just this afternoon. I had a vet on the phone walking me through it. I still feel like I totally blew it.

We also think our buck must not be full dwarf Nigerian. Our first kid by him this spring was a huge 6.5 pound buckling - I don't know how my ff survived that. Belle was an experienced mama who had had several sets of twins. You all saw how huge she was...I tell you the legs on this buckling must have been 8-10 inches long, and his head was the size of my husbands fist.


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

I've been doing a play by play all night, trying to figure out what went wrong and what I could have done differently to have a better outcome...I don't know if anything could have changed the outcome. We knew she was starting yesterday morning. She didn't eat all day, just talked and walked in circles with a massive udder. She had a very, very tiny bit of discharge once or twice in the day. Dh and I checked her at one point, no change, so sat down to dinner and a tv show at about 630. When it was over I looked out the window, and she was laying in the grass, outside of the door to her house. She was stretched on her side lifting her head up and down. When she stood I saw something dark on her udder, and we got excited - this was it! When we got down there I helped her into her house and saw that it was just blood slowly dripping out. Then, I thought it was just part of dilating. Now I know that it was the first sign of something wrong - there was no mucus at all, no goo, just dripping blood. She started pushing hard at 8 - I noted the time, and said out loud to dh that she had till 9. By 830 I think my gut knew something was wrong....laying in bed talking a bit ago, dh said he felt it too....but blood is normal during birth, and it wasn't gushing out...just a larger trickle with each push. By 850 I was going to the house to wash my hands - there was never a bubble, never mucus, just more and more blood.

Hindsight, I should have started making calls then. I blame nothing but my lack of experience.

At 9 I lubed up and went in. She had more or less stopped pushing at that point, but with each contraction blood would come out. I thought that if I could find the hooves and tug a little she'd perk up and help. She never did, she just screamed. I closed my eyes and felt. I felt an open cervix, I felt an intact bag...I felt no hooves. I felt....the side of the kids neck. Slid my hand more, lower, there were hooves. The bag ruptured then, so I felt slowly and determined that I had two front legs. Slowly....the head was bent backward. I hooked the lower jaw and straightened, and pulled the hooves forward. And nothing, it was like everything locked. Ok....feel again, make sure. Line up the nose, pull....nothing. I calmly said that someone should find the listing called farm vet in my cell and call. I explained what was going on, and he told me I was doing everything right, keep on, and here's a number for an emergency vet. 

I kept trying on the phone with him while our two friends were frantically trying to reach any vet who could help. Saturday night though, no one was answering. They finally got someone else who was so wonderful but 90 minutes away. He's walking me through different maneuvers to reposition the kid. I looked at belle at that point and freaked out - my goat is dying. I can't do this, she's dying. I seriously lost it, couldn't breathe, shaking, hands in the air covered in blood. Dh grabbed me and shook me and said you HAVE to do this. I took a deep breath and tried again. The vet told me to just grab the head and pull. I kept telling. I'm that. I couldn't, my hand wouldn't fit if I was holding the head. He said to just hook anything - an eye socket, the lower jaw, anything. I tried, dammit I tried. I looked over and belle was dead. 

Dh told me to hand him a scalpel from my box and leave. He and our friends were going to try to save the kids. I walked out in shock and just layer in the grass...belle was gone. Ten minutes later he came out and shook his head. They tried CPR on the kid, but nothing. I went back in to see him and belle, and couldn't believe how huge he was. It was obvious that there was just no way he would have fit. A c- section was the only way this kid was coming out, and even if there was a vet 10 minutes away who could help us it would have been too late. I think her fate was sealed when I let her push for an hour. I broke the kids jaw pulling so hard. My left hand is purple and swollen...when he told me to grab the head and pull it out my hand was hitting her pelvic bones. My 220 pound dh tried with everything he had to pull it after she died and couldn't. It was huge.

There was the cut dh made to pull the kid out. There was a rupture close to the cervix, probably where all of the blood was coming from. Our lack of experience killed out girl. If we had more experience we would have known this was wrong from the get go and taken her in for a section. I blame myself completely. I thought I was prepared for anything - I knew how to fix incorrect presentations. I knew what to feel for, I knew the timing,the vet's number. I had everything ready. What I didn't have was the experience that comes with many kiddings to scream WRONG at me.

I have another doe, bred by the same buck. I'm terrified that it's going to be another huge kid and she's going to die too. She's not due for another two months, so I have time to figure it out. I feel sick, disgusted in myself. I let my sweet, sweet girl die. I couldn't save her. Every time I close my eyes I see her face and her eyes as she took her last breaths...she died in horrible pain. I've stared at the wall all night because I can't close my eyes.

I love my goats with my whole heart. How do you ever recover from something like this? I don't think I have it in me to do this again.


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## enchantedgoats (Jun 2, 2013)

Thats the weight 3or 4 nd kids. I'm so sorry you lost her.


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

I'm sorry you lost your girl. It sounds like you did everything you could. This is a situation even the most experienced breeder would have struggled with. I know it's hard not to beat yourself up, but please be kind to yourself. This wasn't lack of experience, as much as it may feel that way. You did everything right in this situation. It was just a terrible situation. I hope in time you will be able to see this wasn't your fault.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I am so sorry you lost your girl  Try not to beat yourself up too much....the only way to get experience is to have some good and some bad things happen. You went above and beyond what lots of people would have and there should be commendation for that. Your doe was lucky to have you, and now she has helped you gain some more experience...albeit sad, it is helpful in it's own right. :hug:

I would trust you with my does.....you have courage and heart.


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

Thank you all for your kind words. I can't stop crying, I can't go to sleep. I'm cleaning my house, then going down to finish cleaning up from last night. I left everything down there and closed it up after we buried her. I'm absolutely heartbroken. I hope you're right, and that in a few days I'll feel less guilty.


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## emilieanne (Oct 15, 2012)

There is nothing else you could have done! You done more than I could have even thought of doing! 
You will feel less guilty eventually. 
I've been in sort of that situation. But a little different- I sat in the car for an extra minute wen my doe was telling me something was wrong. I didn't go down to the barn until it was 30 seconds too late. Lost a baby! 
Now I realize, yes I could have been down there earlier and listened, but it's better for that to happen then than later. Now I know to listen to my doe. 
Now you know a lot more. That's how we grow! 
I'm sure your doe had a great life! She went with you there, I'm sure she was more than happy! 
As for your other girl, since she's bred to the same buck, you could set a day with the vet to have her get a c-section done on her due date so that there's no chance of that happening again? 
Just food for thought. 
I'm really sorry it happened like this but it will make you a stronger person and I'm sure later down the road there is a GREAT reason for it going like this. 
:hug: 
You're in my prayers.


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## Texaslass (May 15, 2013)

I am soo sorry!! But PLEASE don't blame yourself! You did everything anyone could've done in that situation; the only thing that MIGHT have saved her would've been an earlier C-section, I guess. But even then there is risk of infection and so on.
Really, don't blame yourself! We have most of us all been through stuff like this. We lost a Nigerian doe once because of the exact same thing. Actually, it happened to her two years in a row, by different bucks! The first year we got a C-section done-one huge buckling, didn't make it- second year I'm not sure if it was a buckling, but it was too big to be born. We were inexperienced, so we put her down before she had suffered too long, but it was very sad, and I always wonder if I couldn't have saved her with the knowledge that I have now. 
So you see, you are not alone, everyone goes through these things. I hope next year you can find a teeny tiny buck that throws twins and triplet, so you can have lots of happy little babies.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I know it wont help much but your doe was dead long before you coulda known. A ruptured uterus is a death sentence without a vet on hand to repair it and even then, not likely to survive. And without a vet standing right behind you being ready, there is no way you coulda had a C section in time to save the kid. Its not your fault, its just one of those things that happen and it breaks our hearts. We question what we coulda done different or what we did wrong and its all for not. But there is a possible bright side to this story. If you have more does to kid with kids from the same buck, you can have them ultrasounded before their due date to get an idea how big the kids are. AND Id suggest never using this buck again. Even if he is full blood, he seems to have a tendency to throw huge kids and may not be worth the risk now that you know.


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## lemuckleys (Feb 1, 2013)

We actually sold the buck about a month ago. We're trying to find the phone number of the man who bought him, to let him know so he doesn't breed him.


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## Scottyhorse (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm so sorry about your loss  :hug:
We had a similar situation in December, pygmy doe couldn'y deliver her dead kid, too big, stuck, couldn't get him in the right position. 
Sped off to the vet. Doe needed a c-section, barely got the kid out even then. Doe had a ruptured uterus in multiple places. She lived, needed to stay in the house for 40 days with 24/7 medical care. I had to sleep on the couch so she could see me, she would come wake me up in the middle of the night to be pet. She would lick my face or pull the blankets off. lol
She lived, but it was a REALLY tough fight. REALLY tough. The only way you could have saved her is if you knew in advance she was going to have a huge kid... So sad...


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