# FF late term abortion, could there be something alive?



## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

So my FF Butterfly went into labor and passed a very well developed, but ultimately premature baby. It had eyeholes, ears, mouth and tongue, but no fur. We aren't sure the cause exactly. She is a small doe, but I'm wondering if there could be a live baby inside her still? She's trying to pass afterbirth right now, but she's still really big and round.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Probably not. If she hasn't passed her afterbirth, she is still going to look big.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Alright, that's so sad.  We've been waiting months for this baby, just for it to trip at the finish line. I'm not even sure how far along pregnant she was, she started loosing her mucus plug about two months ago..


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

So sorry for your loss. I hope mom will be just fine....


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

She seems okay, eating and drinking. Shedoesn't want us touching her tummy too much to feel for another baby (understandable) 

She's got a long string of amber mucus hanging from her, it's got some blood on it. No tears apparent on her, still contracting now and again. Her udder has swollen up a bit. The aborted fetus was just soo developed we were hoping it might have a twin, it's face was deformed (bottom lip had a big skin tag on it) 

I'm trying to see how far along her pregnancy was, but it's slightly difficult.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

She doesn't want to be left alone at all. we've put her in a kennel inside to watch over her. 

Anything I can do to help her along?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Go in and see if there is a malpositioned kid. You could lose mom if there is another one in there that can't come out.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Okay,I'll get some gloves and see what I can't feel.

Edit: I don't feel anything. This may be afterbirth with the Placenta having already passed.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

If she passed placenta cervix is closed & you wont be able to get in.
Can you post a pic of her current discharge?

Just saw your post. If all you felt was mush she is done, no more kids.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Yeah, one second. 

I found two tubes, one going lower and one going up. Up came to a small slit like thing, lower didn't end. Do I go up or down? Neither felt like it had anything in it, though.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

This is the fetus, and her discharge. Though it's a bit redder in the pictures (for both, fetus and discharge)

Her milk is coming in, apparently. Could we milk her even if she doesn't have live kids?


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

No reason that I know of not to milk her.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Make sure she's not back in with the buck immediately.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

We'll be keeping the buck out of the pen for the next two weeks, minimum. There were two pregnant does and one non-pregnant doe that I want to get pregnant so he was in with them.

She doesn't have a very big udder, so I'm not sure if she'll be worth milking. We'll see if more comes or not.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

This is going to sound strange.. 

Is it possible for the matriarch doe of the herd to influence when the less dominant does have their kids? 

My current herd matriarch, Tea, is close to her actual due date. She's been showing signs of kidding here soon (swollen udder, attitude changes, being gigantic) is it possible that the hormonal triggers could influence a younger subordinate doe in the herd? I've been told that the herd queen going into heat can trigger the subordinates into heat, does the same work for labor?


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Save the colostrum. Any from Day 1 mark as that. Then Day 2. After that ( unless you need the milk) just milk enough to relieve pressure. Twice daily for a few days, then less the next few days.
Thanks for the pics. Sorry for the loss.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

If she produces enough milk to actually fill a jar, I will definitely use this as an opportunity to teach her to be milked. Hopefully we'll have a better kidding with my older doe.


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Do you have barn cats in your hay?


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## MylieD (Sep 16, 2013)

The fetus is what triggers labor, so it couldn't have been the other doe, unless the other doe injured her. I'm sorry you lost the baby.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

No barn cats at all, as far as we know. The hay is kept way up on a high shelf so the local rabbits wont munch it up. The only contaminant might be some dried chicken poo, but we've been careful to brush the bale space off every time we put it up the hay and we've taken to locking the chickens up in the coop. 

She could have been butted in the stomach by the herd queen Tea, or by an older doe Dorie. She was also bred young and really small (by accident), and the baby seemed to have a facial deformity (the lower lip skin was twisted and hung down, but wasn't ripped or anything) so it's possible it died and she aborted. 

She's still got goop hanging out of her, but she's had a few more contractions and has made a bit more progress. We're going to wait until tomorrow to see what happens.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

No more hanging goop, she's still a bit swollen and there's some mucus, but nothings hanging and she can pee normally. So I'm considering that a success, but we'll be watching her. 

I'd like to give her a shot of Penicillin Procain G, to guard against infections. What's the dosage for a 25/30 pound goat injected SQ?


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

She's only 30 pounds?? Definitely don't let her get bred again anytime soon. She's tiny.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

1cc per 20 lbs twice a day for 7 days. Do not do one shot. Always do a full course.


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## ShyAnne7 (Nov 28, 2015)

I noticed in the picture of her that her tail looks fish tailed, perhaps she is low on some copper and other minerals. That may be one reason she aborted.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

@deerbunnyfarm She's a nigerian Dwarf. She's supposed to be tiny. xD She's actually slightly taller than the male. 

@ShyAnne7 Fish tailed? Could you explain? I have a mineral block out for them, but it's not specifically for goats. would that cause it? Would that also cause the facial deformity in the kid?


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Nigerian dwarves shouldn't be bred until they reach 40 pounds.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Also, they can't get enough minerals from a block. They need loose minerals offered free choice, made specifically for goats. Fishtail means she's copper deficient.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All great advice.

I am so very sorry for the loss.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

@deerbunnyfarm The doeling in question is a year old as of last month. she wasn't bred intentionally, because of her size at the time. But her sister and mother are only about 30 pounds as well, and her mother is about five years old and her sister is two. I've been giving her rabbit pellets and 50% Alfalfa hay to get size up, so we're working on her filling out. I have no plans on breeding her again for a while. She's a small doe, who was bred to an even smaller buck. I'm going to get her through the winter, but when summer comes around (1.5 years for her) and she's not 40 pounds she'll be put into the herd with all the other goats. When I got her she was only 14 pounds, so we've done good to get her to 30. 

Her tail was also a bit matted at the time from birthing fluids. but it's better to be safe than sorry.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

I may be off base but I'd still be extremely cautious breeding any does or doelings that are so small. It may be a management issue or just genetics but either way that's very very small. I've never heard of any ND's staying so small, I know of one ND doe that is just over 40 pounds at maturity and her breeder refuses to breed her even as a three year old. 

What is in the rabbit pellets?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

These are Teacup Dwarfs, I have heard of and seen them before. They do have their own set of problems but, the size quoted is what they actually range. One of the problems that breeders run into is the occasional kid that matures out at about 16 lbs. These should never be bred back into the line as they are truly too small to function as healthy goats. 

Some rabbit foods do contain animal fat but, not all of them. 
They would benefit with some loose minerals. These give them many more nutrients and easier access than salt blocks.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I'm not sure entirely. Her mother had never had issues kidding, her sister (the two year old) just kidded her first kid and tore a little, but the breeder is trying to 'breed up size' and switching from tiny goats to larger goats... By breeding larger males to smaller female. (I know, it's not a good idea, but they aren't my goats and I can't stop her) 

My rabbit food is Alfalfa based pellets. 

Crude Protein (min.) 15%, Crude Fat (min.) 1.8%, Crude Fiber (min.) 15%, Crude Fiber (max.) 18.5%, Calcium (Ca) (min.) .7%, Calcium (Ca) (max.) 1.2%, Phosphorus (P) (min.) .4%, Salt (NaCl) (min.) .25%, Salt (NaCl) (max.) .75%, Vitamin A (min.) 3000 IU/lb, Ruminant meat and bone meal free. 

They don't get a lot of it, it's mostly a treat, but they go nuts over it. Even my most subordinate doe will make my herd queen back down for it. 

I have human Copper supplements at the house, can I use those on the goat until I buy real supplements?


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

I just wanted to ad that I have mature goats that are all around 30 pounds (pre-pregnant) and there are such small sizes in ND and Pygmy....we breed only second generation small bucks to them, call them pocket goats :drool:
I also think cooper may be needed, just my 2 cents....


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## ShyAnne7 (Nov 28, 2015)

http://nigeriandwarfgoats.ning.com/forum/topics/copper-1?commentId=4125126:Comment:36239


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

I got them some Chelated loose minerals. One doe is Definitely copper lacking. She's got a tail and is missing fur on her face, I just bought her. 

I gave them two Tablespoons of the minerals like the bag said. I mixed it with some rabbit pellets and water and gave each goat their own little serving. How long until I see improvement in them?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You need to put it out free choice.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Oh, okay, the bag said only give them 1/4 to 1/2 and ounce a day, because it's got selenium in it I guess. 

What's the best way to put it out so they wont waste it all by tromping all over it or peeing in it?


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

If you can put it in a hanging feeder that they have to reach through a fence to get that helps.

I don't have this option so I usually just put a Campbell's soup can full out in a dish for them. They go crazy for it if they need it. Otherwise they step in it and flip it which is why I don't put a ton out at a time.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

There are trays at TSC that you screw onto the wall. They're like $5 and have two sides, I put baking soda in one and minerals in the other.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

My goats re in an electric fence and would hate to reach through to get it. XD 

I put it in a dog dish and put it in one of the shelters. The younger ones nibbled it and left. I went back later today and they hadn't touched it again. So I made them an apple sauce (just cooked apples that have been blended) and put the minerals in it and put THAT in there, and they all went crazy for it. I just want to get some in the pregnant doe and the doe I want to get pregnant so they can stay/get pregnant. I'm sure they'll figure out the lose minerals eventually.


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