# Hello, from the G.O.A.T.(Greatest Of All Time) Farm



## Beverly

I am from northern Ohio. I have never had goats before, and have not even known one! I went to an auction intending to check out prices and what types of goats they were selling, and prematurely bought 19 goats. Some are Nubian and the rest are Boer. I did not know it then, but I know now that there is more to keeping goats properly than meets the eye. Four (all Nubian) of the 19 goats died and I went into a horrible depression. It was awful. I did not know regular vets do not take care of goats. I could not figure out why they were dying, and of course it was the four most friendly goats of the 19 that passed away. I did not figure it out until I found this site, which I found a couple of days ago.
I bought them at an Amish auction and their eyes were a mess from day one. For four days straight a goat passed away until I found this site and made a trip to the store. I bought loose minerals (which they dove into like they were starving), and I gave them Ivermectin according to the dose that was written on one of the forums, vitamin B complex injections, water with electrolytes added, and prayed over them heavily. I also copied TGS medicine cabinet list and bought most of the supplies listed. 
As a result you have saved two of my Nubian goats from certain death as they were looking and acting like the previous four that passed. None of the Boers were affected in the least, not so far anyway. I want to thank you all for your knowledge, for saving my darlings, and putting an end to the daily deaths. I do want to thank you, especially ksalvagno, and Toth Boer Goats.


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## catharina

Wow, baptism by fire there! That seems to happen a lot with auction goats. You really sprang into action & saved most of them! Good work!
Before you get new goats you might want to get these blood tested for CAE, CL etc.


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## Beverly

catharina said:


> Wow, baptism by fire there! That seems to happen a lot with auction goats. You really sprang into action & saved most of them! Good work!
> Before you get new goats you might want to get these blood tested for CAE, CL etc.


O.K. I will do it. I found a goat vet yesterday about 15 minutes away! I will call him Monday and ask about blood tests for CAE and CL. I am not sure what the etcetera is but I will ask if he suggests anything else. Thank you for saying I did good work, but I feel like such a failure  I tried to find books at the library to help, I looked online, and have books ordered that should have come today, but did not. I am just so thankful for the direction I have gotten here, and the direction I just got from you


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## catharina

If your new herd tests OK you might want to only buy from tested herds in the future... Auction goats are stressed & have been exposed to a lot of other goats where they can catch parasites or illness.... Don't blame yourself--they were sick when you got them & would probably have gone about the same way or worse if someone else bought them. You are lucky to have a goat vet near by--many of us do not. It sounds like you are going to do great with your goats! You really care about them.


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## catharina

I'm sure everyone here would like to see pictures of your new herd!


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## ksalvagno

Welcome to TGS! Glad we could help.


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## Davon

You may want to consider drawing blood yourself and shipping it in. It's not too hard and with that many goats you may save a lot of money. I usually draw blood after they are bred and get a pregancy test and CAE. I know you can add other tests on, but not sure exactly which ones. I used biopryn and paid around $4 per test a couple of years ago. Let me know if you want more information about drawing the labs. Good luck!


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## New-goat-mom

Don't beat yourself up... you did your best and it sounds like the rest are going to be okay. My intro to goat ownership started similar but on a much smaller scale. I knew I wanted goats and started to research but then drove past a man selling meat goats on the side of the road. I impulse bought 2 sweet little boer/spanish girls. They started scouring immediately and had cruddy eyes and coughing. I lost one of them and literally hated myself for it. Hearing Anabelle crying because she was alone and scared was almost worse than Maggie dying. I found this site, bought her a little Nubian doeling "sister" and have learned a lot since then. Just hang in there. You really are doing good.


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## mariarose

Wow, 19 at one time! You did jump with both feet! Welcome, we are glad you found us.

Yes, vets can be scarce in the caprine universe. No idea why.

Your Nubians were ill when you bought them, and the stress from the auction just made everything worse. The three most important diseases to test for are CAE, CL, and Johnes. All are incurable. The first 2 can be managed, the 3rd should not be managed, those goats should be put down. Horrible disease, really. But not common. But you should still find out if you have it.

The basis of your goat's diet should be hay and browse, clean water, and good loose minerals. Then go from there.

Is anyone pregnant? If so, you'll need some alfalfa, pellets or hay, for the calcium, protein, and later also for milk production.

Bucks and does are generally not housed together. Since this purchase was impulsive, they may be together now, but as soon as you can, I would move the bucks away from the does, at least while you learn about mating and breeding, conformation, etc.

Check your goats' hooves. The best person I've found for advice on that happens to be here on TGS. @Tenacross is very clear and helpful. Of course, your vet may also be of assistance.

Don't feed your hay on the ground, as soon as you can get above ground hay feeders set up for them.

We'd love pictures, if you have any. Not only will it help us see what might need attended to, but we also love goat pics.

Welcome again.


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## Beverly

catharina said:


> If your new herd tests OK you might want to only buy from tested herds in the future... Auction goats are stressed & have been exposed to a lot of other goats where they can catch parasites or illness.... Don't blame yourself--they were sick when you got them & would probably have gone about the same way or worse if someone else bought them. You are lucky to have a goat vet near by--many of us do not. It sounds like you are going to do great with your goats! You really care about them.


I do care about my goats, It may sound corny, but I love them. I go out in the barn and sit with them, and they follow me around in the pasture. I also bought them a Great Pyrenees to protect them. I assumed the goats could have issues, but as other animals go, they did not appear to be sick. Of course, hind sight tells me I did not know what to look for. I will heed your advice and stay away from auctions.


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## Beverly

catharina said:


> I'm sure everyone here would like to see pictures of your new herd!


As soon as I can catch my breath I will attempt to upload pictures. Thank you for your interest!


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## Beverly

ksalvagno said:


> Welcome to TGS! Glad we could help.


Yes! You did! I never dreamed I would find so much help about anything in one spot. I want to personally thank you for sharing your knowledge! I had no idea goats were so different to care for health-wise than other animals, or even people. Totally my ignorance


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## Beverly

Davon said:


> You may want to consider drawing blood yourself and shipping it in. It's not too hard and with that many goats you may save a lot of money. I usually draw blood after they are bred and get a pregancy test and CAE. I know you can add other tests on, but not sure exactly which ones. I used biopryn and paid around $4 per test a couple of years ago. Let me know if you want more information about drawing the labs. Good luck!


I would love more information! Thank you for your kindness. I am a retired nurse, and have worked with blood for years. I would not know the first thing about where to draw it from, where to send it...or how to keep the goats still long enough to draw it. I appreciate your help!


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## Beverly

New-goat-mom said:


> Don't beat yourself up... you did your best and it sounds like the rest are going to be okay. My intro to goat ownership started similar but on a much smaller scale. I knew I wanted goats and started to research but then drove past a man selling meat goats on the side of the road. I impulse bought 2 sweet little boer/spanish girls. They started scouring immediately and had cruddy eyes and coughing. I lost one of them and literally hated myself for it. Hearing Anabelle crying because she was alone and scared was almost worse than Maggie dying. I found this site, bought her a little Nubian doeling "sister" and have learned a lot since then. Just hang in there. You really are doing good.


Goat Mom, did you do what I did to save the other one? Or is there more I should be doing for the rest of the herd. I have one young Nubian named Honey and I am in love with her. She is the sweetest one that is left and I think I would have to throw in the towel if anything happens to her. With the rest of what has happened I do not know if I could take it  Thank you for your encouragement.


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## mariarose

We are here for you. Someone is always here.


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## Beverly

mariarose said:


> Wow, 19 at one time! You did jump with both feet! Welcome, we are glad you found us.
> 
> Yes, vets can be scarce in the caprine universe. No idea why.
> 
> Your Nubians were ill when you bought them, and the stress from the auction just made everything worse. The three most important diseases to test for are CAE, CL, and Johnes. All are incurable. The first 2 can be managed, the 3rd should not be managed, those goats should be put down. Horrible disease, really. But not common. But you should still find out if you have it.
> 
> The basis of your goat's diet should be hay and browse, clean water, and good loose minerals. Then go from there.
> 
> Is anyone pregnant? If so, you'll need some alfalfa, pellets or hay, for the calcium, protein, and later also for milk production.
> 
> Bucks and does are generally not housed together. Since this purchase was impulsive, they may be together now, but as soon as you can, I would move the bucks away from the does, at least while you learn about mating and breeding, conformation, etc.
> 
> Check your goats' hooves. The best person I've found for advice on that happens to be here on TGS. @Tenacross is very clear and helpful. Of course, your vet may also be of assistance.
> 
> Don't feed your hay on the ground, as soon as you can get above ground hay feeders set up for them.
> 
> We'd love pictures, if you have any. Not only will it help us see what might need attended to, but we also love goat pics.
> 
> Welcome again.


Hello Mariarose. Thank you for the welcome, and the load of information you have just given me! I also want to thank you, as it was also some of your posts that saved my other goats. I just could not remember your name, until I saw it. I appreciate you, and I am sure it is more than you can imagine! 
Thankfully, I had enough common sense to know not to feed the hay on the ground, but what I did was not much better. I bought a long rubber trough that holds about a bale of hay, and put the hay there. Well, the goats will not stay out of the trough! They urinate and defecate and even sleep in it. I have on order a metal holder that hangs on the wall, but only holds three flakes of hay (I had to even research what a flake was, I am such a flake, who knew?). It is a nice trough but defeats the purpose, however, I am trying to figure out a contraption to keep their bodies out of it.
*Feeding*- they have all that you have mentioned except browse. I have given them some branches with dried leaves still attached, but winter makes browse scarce, so do you have any suggestions of what I can give to replace this? I did buy them some pellets that said there was browse in it, but could get expensive to buy. also, does it matter what kind of hay I give them? At present they are getting orchard grass with some alfalfa in it. My neighbor down the road feeds his cows something he calls "hay" that is all full of stalks and stuff. Could this possibly replace the browse they need? Also, the loose minerals I bought, and they devoured, looked almost like dust. Is this o.k.? Also, no one is pregnant, from what my limited knowledge can tell.
*Togetherness is not always good*- You are correct I have them all in together. I accidentally bought some wethers (I did not hear the auctioneer say they were weathers, and I thought they were females...duh). Where do I put the wethers?
*Hooves*- Thank you for the direction. I have bought shears to trim them, but you are right again, I do not know the correct way, even though I have looked this up online.
*Pictures- *I will be taking pictures, especially of my male Nubian, as he is so skinny, and walks like he is stiff legged in his hind legs. Polio? I read a thread here regarding that, but my pressing issue was to keep them alive. Also, I did not know what all the symptoms were for that, or if it could be something else...or maybe that is the way male Nubians walk?
I feel so ignorant regarding goats, because I am, but I do want to save the lives of these goats I have, if I can....even if I do not buy any others. It was bad on my part to rely on my past history of caring well for my animals, and buying goats before I finished researching them. It was not an impulse buy, just an ignorant one. Also, the auctions were halting until spring and I desperately needed goats before then. I have a disabled 20 year old (No muscles at all from his knees down both legs, no extender muscle from his elbow down left arm, but very intelligent and can walk, and works like a horse). His aquarium fish business went south, as he could no longer import or export fish, and he was questioning what good he was to this world. I was going to buy goats in the spring, but needed something for him to feel productive, so he cares for the goats, and is back to his old self. I wanted to buy goats for me, but I ended up buying them sooner than later, for my son and me. This is why I feel so bad, I did not know I was going to compromise the goats for the sake of my son, or I would have figured something else out. I hope this was not too much information for this site, but I am desperate to make this work for my son, and my goats.
Thank you again for all your help!!!


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## mariarose

Beverly, Hi. I'm Maria, and we are going to be great friends.

I have a lot of new ideas for you, based on what you just now told me, but I have to go outside now. So, really quickly 2 things.

Wethers are just fine with your does.

Your hay sounds excellent. That is my favorite mix.

I have to run, but I'll be back.

PS the weedy hay may or may not be something they like, it depends on what is in it. Don't depend on it, though, depend on what you got them already.


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## toth boer goats

Welcome, glad you are here.


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## ksalvagno

What part of northern Ohio? We might be able to recommend a good goat vet.


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## Beverly

ksalvagno said:


> What part of northern Ohio? We might be able to recommend a good goat vet.


I live between Fremont and Sandusky Ohio.


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## Beverly

toth boer goats said:


> Welcome, glad you are here.


Thank you, and I am glad you are here, for sure!


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## Beverly

mariarose said:


> Beverly, Hi. I'm Maria, and we are going to be great friends.
> 
> I have a lot of new ideas for you, based on what you just now told me, but I have to go outside now. So, really quickly 2 things.
> 
> Wethers are just fine with your does.
> 
> Your hay sounds excellent. That is my favorite mix.
> 
> I have to run, but I'll be back.
> 
> PS the weedy hay may or may not be something they like, it depends on what is in it. Don't depend on it, though, depend on what you got them already.


Hi, Maria! I was thinking I could very easily be friends with you, before I even read this. In fact, I even looked to see how far away from me you are, and you are only one state south. Once in a while, I go through Kentucky on my way to see my cousin in Georgia. Who would have thought goats would bring a friend to me!   I have to get outside too, but will talk with you later.


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## Beverly

ksalvagno said:


> What part of northern Ohio? We might be able to recommend a good goat vet.


I saw a couple days ago that you are from North Central Ohio, and tried to find your farm, or you on Facebook, but could not. Thank you for contacting me!


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## ksalvagno

Not sure where you are in relation to this vet but they may be able to work with you. https://nwvhdvm.com/about-us/welcome-to-our-clinic/

We aren't on Facebook. I only have 2 goats now. Really downsized and just have goats for personal use.


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## Madgoat

Welcome! Sorry for your loss, don’t beat yourself up, if you learned anything, it’s that if you’re going to have “live”stock, sadly, you’ll also have “dead”stock. Sounds like you jumped right on the situation. Glad you found us, and I agree this site is uberly blessed with some of the most knowledgeable goat owners. 

So keep posting, and you’ll be fine. 

Hope your son enjoys the goats as well! What a wonderful Mom your are!!!!!


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## Rachael

Beverly said:


> I am from northern Ohio. I have never had goats before, and have not even known one! I went to an auction intending to check out prices and what types of goats they were selling, and prematurely bought 19 goats. Some are Nubian and the rest are Boer. I did not know it then, but I know now that there is more to keeping goats properly than meets the eye. Four (all Nubian) of the 19 goats died and I went into a horrible depression. It was awful. I did not know regular vets do not take care of goats. I could not figure out why they were dying, and of course it was the four most friendly goats of the 19 that passed away. I did not figure it out until I found this site, which I found a couple of days ago.
> I bought them at an Amish auction and their eyes were a mess from day one. For four days straight a goat passed away until I found this site and made a trip to the store. I bought loose minerals (which they dove into like they were starving), and I gave them Ivermectin according to the dose that was written on one of the forums, vitamin B complex injections, water with electrolytes added, and prayed over them heavily. I also copied TGS medicine cabinet list and bought most of the supplies listed.
> As a result you have saved two of my Nubian goats from certain death as they were looking and acting like the previous four that passed. None of the Boers were affected in the least, not so far anyway. I want to thank you all for your knowledge, for saving my darlings, and putting an end to the daily deaths. I do want to thank you, especially ksalvagno, and Toth Boer Goats.


This is definitely the best site I've found for info on raising goats.Everyone is so helpful.Im glad you found it and so happy your goats are doing well


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## mariarose

I'm back. Winter is closing fast and I had a lot I needed to get done today when I had help.



Beverly said:


> It is a nice trough but defeats the purpose, however, I am trying to figure out a contraption to keep their bodies out of it.


Most of us are still figuring out hay contraptions. Do you know what a hog panel is? You can get a hog panel from TSC, or someplace like that, and cut it in half with bolt cutters so that you have 1 piece that is 8 feet long and 1 piece that is almost 8 feet long. Then fasten the bottom to something upright and that long in your goats' pen. For instance, your barn wall, or your fence. The bottom should be about chest height on your goats. (not your chest, the goats' chests) use 3-4 short lengths of chain (like 12 inches) to attach the top of the hog panel piece to whatever you attached the bottom of the hog panel piece to. (barn wall, say, or the fence). At this point the bottom will be closed and the top will be open and you can stuff flakes of hay into the top. You should be able to fit a lot of hay along those pieces so several of your goats can eat at the same time. They will eat the hay through the holes in the hog panel pieces.

You and your very abled son should be able to knock those 2 feeder contraptions together quite quickly and it won't cost you much. Here is a hog panel https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/feedlot-panel-hog-16-ft-l-x-34-in-h?cm_vc=-10005



Beverly said:


> they have all that you have mentioned except browse. I have given them some branches with dried leaves still attached, but winter makes browse scarce,


Mine love dried leaves, I have no idea why. When you have branches, or bush prunings, they'll love them. Otherwise, hay is fine. Go ahead and try some of your neighbor's "hay" and see how they like it. Some weeds are highly nutritious for them. But your hay sounds great.



Beverly said:


> no one is pregnant, from what my limited knowledge can tell.


OK, great. But you don't really know, so keep an eye out for developing udders and bellies. There are gobs of threads here, examining the interminable "Is she-Isn't she" question. You'll find them.



Beverly said:


> Where do I put the wethers?


Wethers are fine with does, Wethers are fine with bucks. It is the bucks and does together that is an issue. In case you don't know yet, wethers are castrated males, bucks are intact males.



Beverly said:


> I have bought shears to trim them, but you are right again, I do not know the correct way,


Lots and lots of Youtube videos on this, some better, more clear than others. I no longer use shears. I use small horse hoof nippers and something called an Electric Hoof Knife, because I have arthritis and carpal tunnel syndrome, or I could not keep up.

And speaking of Youtube, there are videos there about how to draw blood on goats. Also on assisting with kidding, and when you need it, milking.

Some people here have youtube channels. Suzanne for one, and @HoosierShadow Here is Suzanne's https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1NRjE2T_yW9yle3P25UYg I'll have to find Hoosier's again, I don't have it at my fingertips at the moment.



Beverly said:


> my male Nubian, as he is so skinny, and walks like he is stiff legged in his hind legs. Polio? I read a thread here regarding that, but my pressing issue was to keep them alive. Also, I did not know what all the symptoms were for that, or if it could be something else...or maybe that is the way male Nubians walk?


No, that is NOT how male Nubians walk, and it sounds serious. Beyond that I can't really say. When you talk to your vet, ask about it, and ask if you can have a bottle of Thiamine. It is Rx, you can only get it from a vet.



Beverly said:


> I feel so ignorant regarding goats


Yes, and there is no shame in that. The only shame is determining to stay that way.



Beverly said:


> I do want to save the lives of these goats


Really? We could not tell....
Seriously, That part is pretty obvious.



Beverly said:


> I did not know I was going to compromise the goats for the sake of my son


You haven't. They were sick and you are saving them. They would have been sick for any other buyer. Seriously, you aren't that powerful... You are just like every other buyer, except you are doing an excellent job of saving them.

I'll be back for the mineral question.


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## mariarose

Beverly said:


> Also, the loose minerals I bought, and they devoured, looked almost like dust. Is this o.k.?


That is unusual, because they are usually manufactured in such a way that they are more granular, for ease of feeding, longevity of storage, etc. However, there is one goat mineral I know of in a powder form. Jolly German sells it.

May I ask what brand you got? and what formulation? For example, Cargill's Right Now minerals (the brand) has Emerald, Emerald Fly Control, Bronze, Gold, and Onyx formulations. The people here who use these minerals seem to prefer the Onyx. So it is important to say Cargill's Onyx, or Right Now Onyx, so we know what we are talking about. If you are curious about the Onyx, here is the pdf on all of them.

http://www.orangegrovecoop.com/images/E0209301/Minerals.pdf

It shows the ingredients and the guaranteed analysis. Both are important.

I also invite you to this mineral thread,

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/excellent-minerals-you-know-how-i-love-me-those-minerals.194612/

but you don't have to go, we can talk about your minerals right here.

Since mineral mixes vary wildly, it is difficult to talk about them when we don't know what they are. This has become one of my very favourite topics, so I look forward to learning about yours.


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## singinggoatgirl

Beverly, welcome! I think you are doing great! Just remember that even the pros have lost some goats at some point. Also, those pros were beginners once, too.

It's not corny to love them. I love my "fur babies" even though (as other people say) they are "just goats." You won't hear many people here say "they are just goats" though. We get it. They are special.

If you don't have browse, hay is perfectly fine. Many people don't have enough land and "dry lot" their goats, meaning they are not on a pasture. Even people who have pasture end up feeding only hay in winter because all the browse is dead for the season. That's why hay (dried plants) was invented - to feed ruminants through winter. Good hay can cover all their food needs, along with a loose mineral salt and plenty fresh water.


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## catharina

Last year Tractor Supply gave away unsold Christmas trees! Free goat food! I also like to "prune" roadside vegetation & bring it home to save on feed bills & treat the goats. They like any kind of conifer in winter. There are lists of plants that are good for goats & plants that aren't. I think you are doing a wonderful job with your goats! Like I did, I bet you are just marveling at how smart they are & how much personality they have! &, if you haven't already, you will soon find out how naughty they can be! Keep up the great work!


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## ksalvagno

Just be sure the trees aren't sprayed with chemicals to preserve them.


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## Beverly

ksalvagno said:


> Not sure where you are in relation to this vet but they may be able to work with you. https://nwvhdvm.com/about-us/welcome-to-our-clinic/
> 
> We aren't on Facebook. I only have 2 goats now. Really downsized and just have goats for personal use.


The location of this vet is quite far, almost an hour away. I am going to meet with a vet a bit closer at the end of this week. Thank you for giving me the information though. I do appreciate it!


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## Beverly

Y


mariarose said:


> I'm back. Winter is closing fast and I had a lot I needed to get done today when I had help.
> 
> Most of us are still figuring out hay contraptions. Do you know what a hog panel is? You can get a hog panel from TSC, or someplace like that, and cut it in half with bolt cutters so that you have 1 piece that is 8 feet long and 1 piece that is almost 8 feet long. Then fasten the bottom to something upright and that long in your goats' pen. For instance, your barn wall, or your fence. The bottom should be about chest height on your goats. (not your chest, the goats' chests) use 3-4 short lengths of chain (like 12 inches) to attach the top of the hog panel piece to whatever you attached the bottom of the hog panel piece to. (barn wall, say, or the fence). At this point the bottom will be closed and the top will be open and you can stuff flakes of hay into the top. You should be able to fit a lot of hay along those pieces so several of your goats can eat at the same time. They will eat the hay through the holes in the hog panel pieces.
> 
> You and your very abled son should be able to knock those 2 feeder contraptions together quite quickly and it won't cost you much. Here is a hog panel https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/feedlot-panel-hog-16-ft-l-x-34-in-h?cm_vc=-10005
> 
> Mine love dried leaves, I have no idea why. When you have branches, or bush prunings, they'll love them. Otherwise, hay is fine. Go ahead and try some of your neighbor's "hay" and see how they like it. Some weeds are highly nutritious for them. But your hay sounds great.
> 
> OK, great. But you don't really know, so keep an eye out for developing udders and bellies. There are gobs of threads here, examining the interminable "Is she-Isn't she" question. You'll find them.
> 
> Wethers are fine with does, Wethers are fine with bucks. It is the bucks and does together that is an issue. In case you don't know yet, wethers are castrated males, bucks are intact males.
> 
> Lots and lots of Youtube videos on this, some better, more clear than others. I no longer use shears. I use small horse hoof nippers and something called an Electric Hoof Knife, because I have arthritis and carpal tunnel syndrome, or I could not keep up.
> 
> And speaking of Youtube, there are videos there about how to draw blood on goats. Also on assisting with kidding, and when you need it, milking.
> 
> Some people here have youtube channels. Suzanne for one, and @HoosierShadow Here is Suzanne's https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1NRjE2T_yW9yle3P25UYg I'll have to find Hoosier's again, I don't have it at my fingertips at the moment.
> 
> No, that is NOT how male Nubians walk, and it sounds serious. Beyond that I can't really say. When you talk to your vet, ask about it, and ask if you can have a bottle of Thiamine. It is Rx, you can only get it from a vet.
> 
> Yes, and there is no shame in that. The only shame is determining to stay that way.
> 
> Really? We could not tell....
> Seriously, That part is pretty obvious.
> 
> You haven't. They were sick and you are saving them. They would have been sick for any other buyer. Seriously, you aren't that powerful... You are just like every other buyer, except you are doing an excellent job of saving them.
> 
> I'll be back for the mineral question.


ou


mariarose said:


> I'm back. Winter is closing fast and I had a lot I needed to get done today when I had help.
> 
> Most of us are still figuring out hay contraptions. Do you know what a hog panel is? You can get a hog panel from TSC, or someplace like that, and cut it in half with bolt cutters so that you have 1 piece that is 8 feet long and 1 piece that is almost 8 feet long. Then fasten the bottom to something upright and that long in your goats' pen. For instance, your barn wall, or your fence. The bottom should be about chest height on your goats. (not your chest, the goats' chests) use 3-4 short lengths of chain (like 12 inches) to attach the top of the hog panel piece to whatever you attached the bottom of the hog panel piece to. (barn wall, say, or the fence). At this point the bottom will be closed and the top will be open and you can stuff flakes of hay into the top. You should be able to fit a lot of hay along those pieces so several of your goats can eat at the same time. They will eat the hay through the holes in the hog panel pieces.
> 
> You and your very abled son should be able to knock those 2 feeder contraptions together quite quickly and it won't cost you much. Here is a hog panel https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/feedlot-panel-hog-16-ft-l-x-34-in-h?cm_vc=-10005
> 
> Mine love dried leaves, I have no idea why. When you have branches, or bush prunings, they'll love them. Otherwise, hay is fine. Go ahead and try some of your neighbor's "hay" and see how they like it. Some weeds are highly nutritious for them. But your hay sounds great.
> 
> OK, great. But you don't really know, so keep an eye out for developing udders and bellies. There are gobs of threads here, examining the interminable "Is she-Isn't she" question. You'll find them.
> 
> Wethers are fine with does, Wethers are fine with bucks. It is the bucks and does together that is an issue. In case you don't know yet, wethers are castrated males, bucks are intact males.
> 
> Lots and lots of Youtube videos on this, some better, more clear than others. I no longer use shears. I use small horse hoof nippers and something called an Electric Hoof Knife, because I have arthritis and carpal tunnel syndrome, or I could not keep up.
> 
> And speaking of Youtube, there are videos there about how to draw blood on goats. Also on assisting with kidding, and when you need it, milking.
> 
> Some people here have youtube channels. Suzanne for one, and @HoosierShadow Here is Suzanne's https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1NRjE2T_yW9yle3P25UYg I'll have to find Hoosier's again, I don't have it at my fingertips at the moment.
> 
> No, that is NOT how male Nubians walk, and it sounds serious. Beyond that I can't really say. When you talk to your vet, ask about it, and ask if you can have a bottle of Thiamine. It is Rx, you can only get it from a vet.
> 
> Yes, and there is no shame in that. The only shame is determining to stay that way.
> 
> Really? We could not tell....
> Seriously, That part is pretty obvious.
> 
> You haven't. They were sick and you are saving them. They would have been sick for any other buyer. Seriously, you aren't that powerful... You are just like every other buyer, except you are doing an excellent job of saving them.
> 
> I'll be back for the mineral question.


You are such a wealth of information. I appreciate all the time you have taken to help me with all these questions I have. I meet with the vet at the end of this week, but am stopping by tomorrow just to chit chat with the rest of the staff, even though they don't know I am coming  I just want to get a feel for the place that may going to possibly be caring for my lovies. 
I too have arthritis, and will be looking into the electric hoof knife. The shears I have are really nippers, I called them the wrong thing. 
I will watch for the enlarged utters, to make sure I catch it if anyone is pregnant. I did not see any type of activity that looked like anyone was interested in breeding, but I guess I will have to watch a video on that too. That is why I was not concerned too much about them being together for a while, and I actually thought I read they breed in the fall (I guess this is still fall) and in the spring. I read on here about a little one that someone said was probably raped repeatedly by three bucks. It made me feel really bad. After what you told me about separating them, we did put up temporary gates on one walled in area in the barn to section them off, until my son can get the gates built for the two entrances. 
I am thinking about what you said about the male Nubian sounding serious. I believe I will call the vet, and see if he will see the boy tomorrow. I am hoping I can just bring him in the office. I will also ask for the Thiamine.
Thank you for all the references to the videos! My goat book came today. _Holistic Goat Care_ by Gianaclis Caldwell. I have another that will be coming in about a week.
I will pick up a couple bales of my neighbors "hay" and see if the goats like it.
I have another question. Do you groom goats? I want to as they look like they could use a brushing, and a bath with the weather is warmer. Do you groom a herd of goats, or is that weird? I think if they were cleaner they would feel better, and warm weather is going to be a long wait, so I was thinking to brush them. Do you know what kind of brush to use, or does it matter?
I have to get the priorities done first, like the vet, the blood draws, hooves, and get their feed set right. I will look into the hog panels, and will show them to my son tomorrow. Thank you, Maria, for EVERYTHING!! I want to hug you


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## Beverly

singinggoatgirl said:


> Beverly, welcome! I think you are doing great! Just remember that even the pros have lost some goats at some point. Also, those pros were beginners once, too.
> 
> It's not corny to love them. I love my "fur babies" even though (as other people say) they are "just goats." You won't hear many people here say "they are just goats" though. We get it. They are special.
> 
> If you don't have browse, hay is perfectly fine. Many people don't have enough land and "dry lot" their goats, meaning they are not on a pasture. Even people who have pasture end up feeding only hay in winter because all the browse is dead for the season. That's why hay (dried plants) was invented - to feed ruminants through winter. Good hay can cover all their food needs, along with a loose mineral salt and plenty fresh water.


Thank you so much for the encouragement, and for the reenforcement regarding the hay. I am discovering every day more things about them that make my goats special. I noticed that the ones who needed help would come up to me and just look at me. I just thought they were friendly, but I know that look now. Also, the one that I knew was going to die on day 5, but the people here saved by posting their information, came up to me and put her head between my knees and left it there. Thankfully, she is doing so much better, and looks like she is gaining weight. I am thankful to be in a place where people get it.


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## Beverly

mariarose said:


> That is unusual, because they are usually manufactured in such a way that they are more granular, for ease of feeding, longevity of storage, etc. However, there is one goat mineral I know of in a powder form. Jolly German sells it.
> 
> May I ask what brand you got? and what formulation? For example, Cargill's Right Now minerals (the brand) has Emerald, Emerald Fly Control, Bronze, Gold, and Onyx formulations. The people here who use these minerals seem to prefer the Onyx. So it is important to say Cargill's Onyx, or Right Now Onyx, so we know what we are talking about. If you are curious about the Onyx, here is the pdf on all of them.
> 
> http://www.orangegrovecoop.com/images/E0209301/Minerals.pdf
> 
> It shows the ingredients and the guaranteed analysis. Both are important.
> 
> I also invite you to this mineral thread,
> 
> https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/excellent-minerals-you-know-how-i-love-me-those-minerals.194612/
> 
> but you don't have to go, we can talk about your minerals right here.
> 
> Since mineral mixes vary wildly, it is difficult to talk about them when we don't know what they are. This has become one of my very favourite topics, so I look forward to learning about yours.


I did not read this until now, but will look on the bag, and maybe I can take a picture of the product and the bag labels, then post it for you. I bought it a TSC. I expected it to be more like the texture and size of coarse sea salt. I hope you sleep well tonight


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## Beverly

Rachael said:


> This is definitely the best site I've found for info on raising goats.Everyone is so helpful.Im glad you found it and so happy your goats are doing well


Thank you, Rachael, for your kind words. I am so happy I found TGS also! I was so surprised to find the information on dosages and people that are so patient with me. I am a pre-schooler at this, and am learning so much so fast. I just had no idea that goats were so different.


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## Suzanne_Tyler

Welcome to TGS  
Wow you have been through a lot. Learning how to keep goats is a pretty sharp learning curve.


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## Beverly

Madgoat said:


> Welcome! Sorry for your loss, don't beat yourself up, if you learned anything, it's that if you're going to have "live"stock, sadly, you'll also have "dead"stock. Sounds like you jumped right on the situation. Glad you found us, and I agree this site is uberly blessed with some of the most knowledgeable goat owners.
> 
> So keep posting, and you'll be fine.
> 
> Hope your son enjoys the goats as well! What a wonderful Mom your are!!!!!


Yes, I have found that out with the rabbits, but it was not my ignorance, my not knowing that caused them to die, with the goats I felt it was, but I have been convinced here that it was not entirely my fault. I feel the same way about this site, the people here, including you, are such a blessing to me. Thank you for lifting up my head, especially by saying I am a wonderful Mom!!!


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## Suzanne_Tyler

Beverly said:


> I have another question. Do you groom goats? I want to as they look like they could use a brushing, and a bath with the weather is warmer. Do you groom a herd of goats, or is that weird? I think if they were cleaner they would feel better, and warm weather is going to be a long wait, so I was thinking to brush them. Do you know what kind of brush to use, or does it matter?


I brush mine occasionally. They love it. This is the comb I have:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004...s=dog+comb&dpPl=1&dpID=41ggmhMCubL&ref=plSrch

Something to note though, if they look like they need brushing they are probably copper or zinc deficient, or have mite problems. Could you post some photos of them?


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## Beverly

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Welcome to TGS
> Wow you have been through a lot. Learning how to keep goats is a pretty sharp learning curve.


Yes, I have found out it is! I just hope it is sharp and short! Thank you for the welcome. So many people have made me feel like I belong here. Goat people must be special too


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## Beverly

catharina said:


> Last year Tractor Supply gave away unsold Christmas trees! Free goat food! I also like to "prune" roadside vegetation & bring it home to save on feed bills & treat the goats. They like any kind of conifer in winter. There are lists of plants that are good for goats & plants that aren't. I think you are doing a wonderful job with your goats! Like I did, I bet you are just marveling at how smart they are & how much personality they have! &, if you haven't already, you will soon find out how naughty they can be! Keep up the great work!


Hello Catharina. Thanks for the information about the trees and how the goats like the conifers. I will try to find the lists of foods they enjoy, and am hoping to grow some this spring for them as well. I plan to plant rye in one field, let it grow, then let them into that field while I plant and grow another. My son is also letting about half an acre grow natural this next year so he can let the goats browse there, a few at a time. we also have a long creek going the full length of the property that is grown up on both sides of it. I just will have to be careful to look over what is growing there and compare with the list. 
You are right! I marvel at them every day. One of the smaller ones always looks like she is calculating, like her wheels are turning. She is a very young Boer, with a fat belly, and as cute as she can be! Thank you for the warm welcome!!


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## Suzanne_Tyler

Here is a good poisonous plants list:

https://fiascofarm.com/goats/poisonousplants.htm


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## Beverly

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> I brush mine occasionally. They love it. This is the comb I have:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004...s=dog+comb&dpPl=1&dpID=41ggmhMCubL&ref=plSrch
> 
> Something to note though, if they look like they need brushing they are probably copper or zinc deficient, or have mite problems. Could you post some photos of them?


I will post pics, but am so busy trying to get them stable, and care for my boys. Thanks for the link! I will look at it, for sure. I hope to take one to the vet tomorrow, and I will ask about his fur. I will post pictures though, because some of my goats are over the top on the cuteness factor!


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## Beverly

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Here is a good poisonous plants list:
> 
> https://fiascofarm.com/goats/poisonousplants.htm


Thank you!!


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## mariarose

Found this on Pinterest. I intend to make this one day, so they'll stop scratching themselves on my duck pen.









I do agree on us needing to see pictures though. They should not look rough.

Your vet may, or may not, know about nutritional factors affecting coats. My vet still does not know about my goats' need for copper. I know you said you found a goat vet and that's great. Just be sure to let us weigh in as well on what he/she says. There is so much collective knowledge here.


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## mariarose

This hay feeder is similar to what I was trying to describe. But with a wooden framework. I was going for fast-n-furious-n-cheap to feed a lot of goats quickly. You can finesse later. But you can get the basic idea from


__
https://flic.kr/p/8712751936

The feed trough you bought makes an amazing sleeping platform. Ask me how I know. Geh-Head, ask me. I dare ya!

Seriously, you bought a wonderful sleeping shelf in that trough. And they need them! Really they do! Well done.


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## mariarose

Not quite what I was describing, but showing what can be utilized quickly in an emergency.


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## ksalvagno

Be careful with rye grass. They can get rye grass staggers.


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## Beverly

Oh My!! Nix to the rye then! Thank you for letting me know! I have been on the look out for conifers In the woods around here, to get some limbs.


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## Beverly

mariarose said:


> Found this on Pinterest. I intend to make this one day, so they'll stop scratching themselves on my duck pen.
> View attachment 124632
> 
> 
> I do agree on us needing to see pictures though. They should not look rough
> Your vet may, or may not, know about nutritional factors affecting coats. My vet still does not know about my goats' need for copper. I know you said you found a goat vet and that's great. Just be sure to let us weigh in as well on what he/she says. There is so much collective knowledge here.


Hi Maria
I absolutely plan to. I take the Nubia buck to see her tomorrow at 1:00pm. I will let you know what she had to say about him. I am asking for the Thiamine though, and I will pay close attention to see if she mentions the need for copper. She is a big animal vet, and doctors goats and sheep. The vet for my dogs and cats told me about her, in fact he recommended her. however, I don't know him from Adam. I will be sure to let you know everything, so maybe you can tell if she is talking goat talk or not.
I have not gotten pictures because I have been sick for over a week. Doc thought maybe I had pneumonia, but x-ray yesterday said I do not. I will make sure I get pictures of the Nubian and some others tomorrow.


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## Beverly

mariarose said:


> This hay feeder is similar to what I was trying to describe. But with a wooden framework. I was going for fast-n-furious-n-cheap to feed a lot of goats quickly. You can finesse later. But you can get the basic idea from
> 
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/8712751936
> 
> The feed trough you bought makes an amazing sleeping platform. Ask me how I know. Geh-Head, ask me. I dare ya!
> 
> Seriously, you bought a wonderful sleeping shelf in that trough. And they need them! Really they do! Well done.


Ha Ha Ha Ha ha...You have me laughing! Well then, It wasn't a total loss of money! I did not know goats like "sleep shelves". Another thing for me to look into.
Thank you for the link, and I like the brushes on the fence post idea!


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## Madgoat

Beverly said:


> Yes, I have found that out with the rabbits, but it was not my ignorance, my not knowing that caused them to die, with the goats I felt it was, but I have been convinced here that it was not entirely my fault. I feel the same way about this site, the people here, including you, are such a blessing to me. Thank you for lifting up my head, especially by saying I am a wonderful Mom!!!


You are so welcome. I was just stating the obvious! Lol


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## mariarose

How are they?


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## Beverly

The vet said the boy is walking fine. She said he was weak due to mineral deficiency, as the area of the auction I bought him from are known for not giving any supplements. She gave him an antibiotic injection because his lungs weren't clear, and injection of selenium and one of thiamin. She also gave me five doses drawn up in syringes to continue to give him at home. She also took a stool sample, and told me he had lice (YUK!) Poor guy!

However, we almost lost the littlest Boer, she fell right in front of our eyes. I have learned so much, and out of my supplied medicine cabinet I learned about on here, I got my thermometer and took her temp...it was 98.2*! I wrapped her in a blanket and my son got a tub of hot, hot water and I laid her right alongside the tub.

He then built an enclosure inside the barn with scrap wood, making four walls and using the loft as the ceiling. He built a shelf to hold a heater, and plugged the heater in with no wires on the floor. He covered the floor with about six inches of straw, put a warm tub of water inside, pellets with minerals and probiotics sprinkled on them, and the long trough they use to sleep in. It took him, with me being the go-pher, five hours to complete. The doeling Boer picked her head up after a couple hours, but stayed laying inside the down blanket she was wrapped in while she ate pellets and minerals placed before her. I gave her a B-complex injection (because I had it on hand in my medicine cabinet as well as syringes and needles), and one of the selenium and thiamine injections the vet gave me for the buck (9 months old she said he was). After four and a half hours she was up out of the blanket, and when I took her temp it was 101*. He picked her up and put her in the enclosure with three other small ones, a doe that I am sure is pregnant (I gave her the selenium, thiamin, and B-complex injections too), the boy I took to the vet, and an adult wether (sp?) that we bought blind.

She is doing well now, and that was three days ago. Should I keep giving the B-complex and is there anything else I should give her? 

Another question, all the girls are in the enclosure, and outside the enclosure are the adult Boer Bucks, and the wethers. It is dark in the enclosure except when my son or I are in the barn, because my son said most barn fires are cause by heat lights (which is what we have in the enclosure) so it stays off if we are not there. I wonder about the heater, but it is too cold at night to leave it off. The day the baby girl got hypothermia, the weather was in the teens. Anyway, how cold is too cold to let the healthy(ier) adult Boers out? I know if I were a goat I would not want to stay in the dark very long. I am afraid for the baby girl now. I am so afraid of her getting cold.

On a more comical note, the adult Boers lay on a shelf next to the wall of the enclosure. They look funny all lined up on that long low shelf, but I know they are enjoying the warmth of the wall.

Thank you everyone for educating me so far, I have so much more to learn!! Especially now that I have a pregnant Nubian doe. I will read through the pregnant forums to see if she can be wormed and what to do to improve her health.

Also, I am making an appointment for the vet to come out to give all the goats injections of what they need. I found out there is another goat vet close as well, but I am sticking with this one.


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## mariarose

Beverly said:


> I found out there is another goat vet close as well, but I am sticking with this one.


You will make us all quite jealous with your wealth of choice! Talk with your chosen vet about the other vet and ask if it would be OK with her to occasionally use the other vet in case she is ever gone or unavailable, and the other vet could be somewhat familiar with your herd already.



Beverly said:


> Especially now that I have a pregnant Nubian doe. I will read through the pregnant forums to see if she can be wormed and what to do to improve her health.


Here is a current thread you might like. https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/vitamin-and-mineral-during-pregnancy.194787/ and another, https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/diet-through-gestation.194579/. Post 12 includes a link that is very helpful. I would not worm without your vet's input now. She knows what she saw in your buck's fecal, and she knows what wormers are ineffectual in your areal currently.



Beverly said:


> how cold is too cold to let the healthy(ier) adult Boers out?


They should be out during the day, at least. Were you able to get hay feeders up and running? As long as those rumens have plenty of your good hay to fire up on, they will be healthier in fresh air.



Beverly said:


> we almost lost the littlest Boer, she fell right in front of our eyes.


Well done saving her. You and your very-abled son have so much to be proud of there.



Beverly said:


> he was weak due to mineral deficiency, as the area of the auction I bought him from are known for not giving any supplements.


We need a "Shaking My Head" emoji.



Beverly said:


> She is doing well now, and that was three days ago. Should I keep giving the B-complex and is there anything else I should give her?


@toth boer goats @ksalvagno you are better at this than I. Can you input?


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## toth boer goats

Hope you treated for lice.

Keep up the antibiotics for the full course and fortified B complex shots for a few more days.

Be careful not to make the water too hot for the goats, you do not want it to burns the goat. 

Is the goat getting enough to eat? If nursing or on the bottle getting enough milk? If they do not it can make them go sub temp from the cold temps. 

Don't give anymore selenium.

How old is the kid?
If 2 weeks or older, was a fecal done for worms and cocci?

I use heat lamps and hope for the best, regular heaters can tip over so be careful. It is a give and take on a threat of fire. I just pray it doesn't happen and use them when needed. 
If the weather is too cold and the kids are hunching and looking cold when I let them out, I keep them in until they are a bit older or if the weather isn't as cold later in the day ect. I still watch out for them. The adults can go out and should have a choice to go out or in if they choose in the daytime. Nighttime I close them all in.
If they are not healthy or sick, leave those in. 

Goat kids snuggle together, which is good for warmth. 

Have the vet teach you how to do your own shots, it is much cheaper on you.

Glad the kid is better, if any youngsters when they go out, hunch make them stay in with some feed. Hunching is how I can tell it is too cold for them.


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