# Horrible kidding... What happened?



## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

Long story, so please bear with me.

Mamma Mia was 5 days over (day 150). She is a Nigerian Dwarf. She had been in labor (contrations but no goo and no pushing for 24 hours) and I manually checked her. Felt something but no idea what.

Soon after, approx 15 minutes she started to express some goo, but nothing like I have seen in the past. I got a horrible gut feeling and hubby stayed home from work to help in case things went south. They did.

1st kid after 30 minutes of pushing I went fishing for. I couldn't make sense in my mind what I was feeling. Our goat guru is on speaker phone at this point and Hubby goes in. Baby is coming butt first. Cannot find legs and she is pushing so hard we cannot get the kid back in to reposition it. The bag looked wrong. A murky brown. Goat guru said carefully get it out, however you have to. Hubby worked with her contractions and got the doe out. She had been dead for a while, her eyes were sunken in and mouth looked odd.

Mamma Mia starts to push again. Progress is not being made and he goes in. The baby is presenting upper shoulders first. Finally get it out, another doeling dead.

Mamma Mia starts screaming and boom, another baby. We fear the worst but it moves. I'm handed the baby and am frantically trying to clean its face as our doe is licking and screaming.

Another kid comes out. Again, alive.

What happened? I am thrilled to have 2 healthy doelings (small but healthy) but

A. How did two survive inside with 2 very dead kids
B. Why did the other kids die
C. Is there anything I could do differently next time?

Sorry for the long post, I am just stressing.


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## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

Doeling pics just cause a little sunshine right now doesn't hurt


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Im so very sorry, that is heartbreaking  I'm so glad you were able to get them out and that 2 survived.

Did the second one also look like it had been dead a while?
It's really hard to say what happened, could be a number of things.

How is mama doing? Have you started her on antibiotics? I recommend doing a uterine flush as well so she doesnt get any infection.


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## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

HoosierShadow said:


> Im so very sorry, that is heartbreaking  I'm so glad you were able to get them out and that 2 survived.
> 
> Did the second one also look like it had been dead a while?
> It's really hard to say what happened, could be a number of things.
> ...


Thank you for your words. We started her on antibiotics after the 4th kid hit the ground. No uterine flush yet simply because I don't know anything about them and don't have anything on hand. I plan to go to tsc first thing in the morning.

I am beating myself up tonight. I really should have listened to my gut 4 days ago.


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## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

HoosierShadow said:


> Im so very sorry, that is heartbreaking  I'm so glad you were able to get them out and that 2 survived.
> 
> Did the second one also look like it had been dead a while?
> It's really hard to say what happened, could be a number of things.
> ...


Mama is angry. She overall seems ok. I gave nutri drench after birth. She was given warm water with molasses and offered hay and grain. I did milk her out.

2nd doe wasn't as decayed as the first if that makes any sense at all. I'm sorry, I am tired and still shaking a bit


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## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

I should also add, we had to take her two alive doelings. She tried to stomp one and then tried to head butt the other. They were both weak and i was nervous


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I'm not sure why the kidding was so odd, but here's a hug for you. (((((Hug)))))

So sorry you (and hubby and Mamma Mia) had such a tough time!!!!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

@HoosierShadow How and with what do you flush?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Uterine bolus? Remember the product from reading about delivery difficulties.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

It could be anything, the dead ones may have had poorly attached placentas, or they were positioned incorrectly over the cervix and couldn't get pushed out. 

A few years ago, I delivered a mummified kid, then a sack of bones, literally, bones, totally devoid of flesh, then a live buck kid! I treated the doe for Chlamidia. She has had no problems since. Sometimes nature is just plain weird!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Both mom and the babies could probably use B-Complex and selenium right now, after all that. I'm so sorry you went through that.

I'm wondering if umbilical cords didn't become twisted closed in the moving and jostling for position...


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Sometimes it just happens and I’m sorry it Happened to you  I agree it could be so many things. Over the years I have had a few like that. I always thought that when one died she would just abort but that doesn’t seem to be the case. 
I think a good guess is about the cords, but again just a guess! I once had a doe push out a live kid then a dead one. When the dead one came out it had a indentation around its stomach. I thought it was odd and really looked at it and what happened was the cord was around the kid and I think as it got bigger broke the cord. Thinking about it it’s just luck that doesn’t happen more often especially with a herd of kids in a small womb.
But bottom line I would chalk it up to a freak accident since the other two kids are perfectly fine. 
On another note keep trying the kids with mama. It is very possible her hormones are just wacko at the moment. I’m not saying toss them in and walk away. Sometimes, specially with FF once you get them patched in it’s like a little light bulb goes on in their brain and they are like oh! That’s nice, this is what I am supposed to be doing! It never hurts to try


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

first you are a great goat mama. you have done every thing right.
with multiple births some times things get tangled up. so let it go. focus on today keep the doe healthy and the kids growing.
I too have a hard time shrugging things off. but with 250 ewes and 50 goats i have learned to make a mental note (you got to do this next time) and move on to the next birth.
You are a good Goat mama!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Spazzyyarn said:


> Thank you for your words. We started her on antibiotics after the 4th kid hit the ground. No uterine flush yet simply because I don't know anything about them and don't have anything on hand. I plan to go to tsc first thing in the morning.
> 
> I am beating myself up tonight. I really should have listened to my gut 4 days ago.


I don't think four days would have made any difference to the outcome so please don't beat yourself up. You did everything you could and you have two healthy kids!

I have not done a uterine flush, but my vet said I could use a "weak kid tube" and a diluted iodine solution. It has to be done within the first couple days after kidding or the cervix closes and you can't insert the tube.

I also agree that you should keep trying to get the kids with mama. You may need someone to hold mama still while you guide her kids to the teats and let her sniff them. Sometimes new mamas are a little dumb, but having the kids nurse often kicks their motherly instincts into gear.


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## dnchck (Mar 24, 2014)

Spazzyyarn said:


> Doeling pics just cause a little sunshine right now doesn't hurt


Beautiful babies, i'm sorry about the other two babies. Heartbreaking! Is mama doing ok?


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## wwfarm (Jan 27, 2014)

So sorry about the dead kids but four is a lot! I have had one of a twin dead before and it was a breach birth like this. 

I just had a freshner give birth to triplets. The first 12-18 hours she was butting and pawing the babies. I repeatedly lifted her leg and put them to nurse. I stayed up 24 hours working with her. She finally got the idea that she was mom and they needed to nurse. She is a great mom now! They are four days old and thriving. I did pull one triplet--the weak one--and am bottle feeding him. He is just now walking after three days and want him to be stronger before I put him back with his siblings. I will continue to bottle feed him though.

Don't give up on mom. Make sure you are feeding them her milk or she will outright reject them when you try to reintroduce them. I think with a little work she will get the idea.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I say, good job you and Hubby managed to save what could be saved! I, also, was thinking of possible need for antibiotics, here we would need a vet for prescription.

Great congratulations to a live mother and two very pretty "dogs"!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am sorry it was a hard delivery.

She has been through a lot pain as to why she hates the babies and she may tight in the udder.
Milk out some from her udder, so she is not so tight and in pain, then try to attach the kids onto her teat.

Also, if you can get some banamine give her a shot of it for pain.

Has she dropped her afterbirth?


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## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> I am sorry it was a hard delivery.
> 
> She has been through a lot pain as to why she hates the babies and she may tight in the udder.
> Milk out some from her udder, so she is not so tight and in pain, then try to attach the kids onto her teat.
> ...


She lost the afterbirth around 4 hours after the last kid hit the ground. I have milked her twice now and am feeding the babies her milk. Twice I have tried to introduce the stronger doeling back to her but she wants nothing to do with her. 

Mamma had antibiotics, I did dura-pen, 1cc per 22 pounds. She is up and eating and with the other does now. Our get said she didn't need pain relief. (Sigh, I swear sometimes this man infuriates me) is there anything without needing a prescription I could give her?

She also is getting warm water with molasses. She had nutri drench and fortified vitamin b. Is there anything that I am missing?

Thank you again


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## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

dnchck said:


> Beautiful babies, i'm sorry about the other two babies. Heartbreaking! Is mama doing ok?


Overall, I think she is doing ok. She is up and eating. She has zero interest in the babies but perhaps it is better than her missing them.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I've heard that aspirin can be given in an emergency. @Jessica84 has told me a source from which we can order banamine, but I can't remember where it is. My vet is pretty good that way and so I go through him.

So maybe try an aspirin???


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## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

mariarose said:


> I've heard that aspirin can be given in an emergency. @Jessica84 has told me a source from which we can order banamine, but I can't remember where it is. My vet is pretty good that way and so I go through him.
> 
> So maybe try an aspirin???


Thank you I can try that.

I really like our vet, but certain things I do not agree with. Its rough at times.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Spazzyyarn said:


> Thank you I can try that.


I found this. I haven't tried it.
https://animals.mom.me/joint-pain-relief-for-goats-3299611.html


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## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

mariarose said:


> I found this. I haven't tried it.
> https://animals.mom.me/joint-pain-relief-for-goats-3299611.html


Aawesome! Thank you!


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Im not sure about the pharm side but since we talked about it last, Ive found this site, https://phytoanimalhealth.com/phyto-animal-health-cbd-works-for-dogs-cats-and-livestock-too/

this might be helpful and organic vs pharmaceutical.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Sorry, I had to run. I didn't mean to leave you.

I don't know what Boswellian leaves are (mentioned as a natural choice of goats) and I know you were not asking about joint pain. It was just a page on pain that I found quickly before I had to leave.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

https://racehorsemeds.com/product/flunixin-banamine-100ml/

Banamine, without a script


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## Island Milker (Dec 11, 2018)

Is willow bark out of the question? 
https://www.mountainroseherbs.com/products/white-willow-bark/profile


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Be warned that many pain killers can stop the cleansing contractions. She is already trying to clean a dirty uterus, that may not be the best idea.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

goathiker said:


> Be warned that many pain killers can stop the cleansing contractions.


Oh.
Can you suggest something that would give her ease, then? Or nothing at all?


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Maybe this? https://www.jefferspet.com/products/b-l-solution-and-paste

They have it at TSC.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

Jubillee said:


> https://racehorsemeds.com/product/flunixin-banamine-100ml/
> 
> Banamine, without a script


:up:


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## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

goathiker said:


> Be warned that many pain killers can stop the cleansing contractions. She is already trying to clean a dirty uterus, that may not be the best idea.


I flushed her uterus today. She is doing really well. I am kinda shocked actually. Eating. Drinking. Her normal goofy self lol. She is such an amazing goat, I am very relieved she is ok. I was terrified I may lose her.


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## Spazzyyarn (Jul 4, 2018)

Thank you all for the advice, help and support. Mamma Mia is doing much better today. She is back to her herd queen self and eating and drinking like a champ. It was nice to sit with her this evening and just love on her. 

The babies are doing well too. They do not have a name yet, but are super spoiled.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

(woot)(thumbup)


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Spoiled, no, LOVED!  :inlove::inlove: 

Now, let me see. Willow bark belongs to goats' favourites during normal foraging, and I believe she will eat it with joy, but I do not think it easies any pain on exactly goats. Aspirin (ASA) contains almost the same active substance, so same thing there. But, is she still in pain? I have the impression that her pain is mainly over, after that very hard delivery. Or? Any signs that she is still in pain?

Getting her to accept the little ones now, I do think it is too late. Both parties were too exhausted after the life threatening delivery to be able to start their mother-child relationship in time. Normally, this happens during the first half hour of lecking, smelling, and talking. I believe you have seen this wonderful scene more than once? I also think the small ones in Hubby's (?) arms are a bit too tired to be able to fight for the right to suckle. I think the only thing they will learn is that it hurts to try.

I say again, very good job you saved these three, after what happened!

And you keep the udder fresh by milking.  As for the uterus, is there really still dirt in there? Any signs of that? A remaining soreness of the entire belly after all this could be considered normal, but of course not a big pain when you stroke her even rather firmly, lifting the belly to feel for signs of pain or lumps. The only reason for pain I can think of now, afterwards, is if there is an infection going on inside her, but if so, you will soon discover that, since you love her so much, and keep "talking" with her. (And to her, and about her, but most important with her!!)

LONG LIVE MAMMA MIA! (I guess the name comes from the ABBA film?)


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I honestly would of used Banamine to take down swelling and pain. She was in pain, had a rough delivery, that may be why she disowned the kids.

I never had issues giving a goat banamine as they were cleaning out and with infection. 

But glad she is improving.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

mariarose said:


> I've heard that aspirin can be given in an emergency. @Jessica84 has told me a source from which we can order banamine, but I can't remember where it is. My vet is pretty good that way and so I go through him.
> 
> So maybe try an aspirin???


I ordered banamine from racehorsemeds.com I think was the website it's the generic but it's fine. They're in Canada and you have to pay with paypal.


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## purplemountain (Jun 2, 2014)

Very cute kids! It sounds like you did everything right. She went into labor, 30 minutes of pushing and no progress (or any grinding of teeth), go in and check, reposition, help deliver if needed, etc. That all sounds right. It does seem that in the last couple of years it's been going around on the internet that Nigerian Dwarf Goats are 145 days gestation. We have not found that to be true. Stick with the standard 150 days. We have seen them anywhere from 147 days to 151.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I agree. These goats have very good humans!  When things have settled down a little, I really look forward to nice photos!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.

When a doe begins to push(in true labor), time it 30 to 45 minutes at most, if no kids are on the ground by then, wash up and go in.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Sorry somehow I missed this thread the last few days as I've been very sick (ears and throat...I'm surviving!).

Uterine flush, I've had success just using clean, warm water and LA200, then doing LA200 1x a day for 5 days if I think she needs it.

I agree, Banamine might have helped when she was pushing away the kids it's just one of those things you don't know until you try it. Not being able to get it is a big issue, and I know that is frustrating. We've been fortunate to be able to keep it on hand over the years that sometimes I forget how hard it is to get.

The babies look adorable, and if they are thriving and mama is happy, then this is probably the best outcome you could hope for


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Time for a new picture?


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## Devonviolet (Aug 22, 2016)

Congratulations on the adorable kids! :inlove: I’m so sorry that you lost the first two. However, kudos to your husband on the great job he did! I don’t have any experience with breech/difficult deliveries, so I can’t really give any advice there.

As far as the uterine flush, and as a retired nurse, turned alternative, my first thought was a mild iodine flush. I would have used a RR (Red Rubber) catheter, which I have used to tube feed premie kids. There is a trick to getting it down the esophogus, and not the trachea, but it works well. I like the idea of doing the flush for five days.

You have gotten some great advise here, and you did a great job on the follow up. One thought on your cranky FF. This might be off the wall, but I might have rubbed a small amount of her milk on the kids, so when she got near them, she would have smelled her own milk. Sometimes, that (and persistence) is all it takes, AFTER she gets over the trauma of a diffucult delivery, of course.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Something I meant to add in my post!

I know there are a lot of different ways to flush a uterus, but using a calf tube feeding kit works GREAT.
First time I had a kidding complication and needed a vet, he gave me a calf tube feeding kit and told me to flush her with it. Sterilize it good when I was completely done and keep it for future emergencies. I use it any time I have to go in a doe, which isn't very often. But still... works great for getting the fluid in there.
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/bag-oral-calf-feeder


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

<<<Is willow bark out of the question? >>>

I recently had the choice of willow bark or meadowsweet. Having used willow bark before I decided to give the meadowsweet a go - the doeling who was getting it certainly seemed to be happier when started on it.
camooweal


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