# Need help with 20 day old kid and diarrhea



## cariboubug (Feb 25, 2011)

Hi. We just got a new nigerian dwarf doe in milk with her 20 day old buck kid.
When we got her we found they were both covered in lice, she had tapes and stomach worms and minor coccidia. We typically use Molly's Herbals on our other two nigerian dwarf goats (one doe, one buck) who have been very healthy. We went ahead and wormed the mom with Molly's as it would be a week before our vet could see us. We found lots of tapes in the feces of the mother after this worming. We also suspected the kid had conjunctivitis with his excessively weepy eyes. We also dusted all the goats for lice. 
When the vet came, she said to use a pour on for the lice, checked the kid and said his eyes should be ok in a few days, because it could have just been from the windy conditions. She also told us to use Valbazen for the worms on the mother. We did all of those things, and went ahead and wormed our other two goats with the herbal wormer, and used the pour on with them, as well. Cleaned out the barn and gave all new bedding. That was on Tuesday of this week. Everyone seemed. Wednesday, we gave the kid his first dose of herbal wormer (he was 2 1/2 wks old). Thursday he began with diarrhea, and still has it today (Friday). We have tried Pepto Bismal, but it does not seem to be helping. We also had added some Probios powder into his wormer. We also gave his mother some Probios. She seems to be fine. Have seen no evidence of tapes in her feces (even after the Valbazen). But the buck is very runny...otherwise seems fine. His eyes have cleared up, but now my other doe is showing signs of pink eye, and we are using triple eye ointment on her. The lice seem to be gone. We will re-do in about a week. Molly's site says to worm the kid at any signs of diarrhea. We wondered if he was reacting to the Valbazen in his mother's milk, or if he was reacting to the herbal wormer. Should we re-worm him with the herbal as Molly's suggests? Or keep with the Pepto Bismal? Thanks for any help and advice.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Herbals aren't going to help the situation quickly....you will need to give the kid something for cocci and worms..... Use valbezen... and corid or something that will be stronger than a herbal... I give 1cc per 33 lbs ...so you will have to break it down ...to the kids weight... if it is around 3 weeks old...then... it may very well be cocci at this point as well as worms...... Have the babies fecal tested.... to be sure.... for both worms and cocci....

Be sure to give the mother valbezen again in 7 to 10 days....and another 7 to 10 days as well....sounds like... she had a big worm load.....

keep with the Pepto Bismal...


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## cariboubug (Feb 25, 2011)

The Pepto Bismal does not seem to be making a dent. Diarrhea is actually worse.
Can they test diarrhea? Or does it need to be semi-solid? We are continuing with the Pepto, and probios. Also gave a squirt of Nutri-Drench. I guess I am afraid of messing up his rumen with the wormers. You don't think that will be a problem?
Thanks for the help.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How much pepto are you giving and how often?

What color is the diarrhea?

Yes... they can test diarrhea.......



> I guess I am afraid of messing up his rumen with the wormers. You don't think that will be a problem?


 "After" any treatment of wormers and /or antibiotics...you can give the probiotics....it will put the rumen.. back on track again.....give it for 3 days....after your treatment...so no worries there... :wink:


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

His age is ripe for coccidia....it takes 3 weeks for incubation to symptoms of overload, get a poop sample to the vet asap and 6cc of Pepto every 6-8 hours, make sure he is nursing. If you can't confirm a fecal with a vet right now I would weigh him and start treatment with Sulmet or DiMthox at 1cc per 5lbs now then for the next 4 doses give 1cc per 10lbs...get a temp on him too, the sulfa drug(sulmet or dimethox) will help with bringing the temp down BUT my vet had me give a doeling Amoxicillan as well as Sulmet for 5 days.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Agree with Liz. Could definately be cocci.


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## cariboubug (Feb 25, 2011)

I hit Quick reply, guess it did not work.
We're giving 5cc Pepto Bismal every 4-6 hours.
His diarrhea is yellow/creamy colored. So then, after I'm finished giving treatment completely, then I give Probios? Not during treatment?
He is nursing, although, only on one side  His dam's fecal test results read like this: 1-10 strongyle per field; 1-10 monezia per; scant (few) coccidia on slide.
I will try to get a fecal into the vet tomorrow, but, I do have Sulmet on hand. I went ahead earlier and gave him a dose of the herbal wormer. I'll go ahead and get a temp, too. Thanks for all of the advice.


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## Goat Biology (Feb 23, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> "After" any treatment of wormers and /or antibiotics...you can give the probiotics....it will put the rumen.. back on track again.....give it for 3 days....after your treatment...so no worries there... :wink:


Probiotics as well as yogurt have no microbes in it that will colonize a rumen. The bacteria in probiotic bacteria are intestinal bacteria primarily Lactobacillus types which produce lactic acid -- which, if these bacteria were cabable of surviving in the rumen, lactic acid is something you do not want in the rumen since it's the cause of rumen acidosis.

The types of bacteria that colonize a rumen are very specific to the rumen and cannot live anywhere else especially in an oxygen environment since they are strictly anaerobic. The only way to help re-establish a rumen microbe colony is with a cud transplant directly from a healthy goat in the rare event that it's necessary.

Wormers will not hurt a rumen since, with the exception of cocciostats, most of them are directed at large worms not at bacteria. And then most of the time when you drench, the esophageal groove closes and the medication will bypass the rumen.

Probiotics are helpful to some degree to help an intestinal tract that has been ravaged by diarrhea once the cause has been eliminated.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Probiotics as well as yogurt have no microbes in it that will colonize a rumen. The bacteria in probiotic bacteria are intestinal bacteria primarily Lactobacillus types which produce lactic acid -- which, if these bacteria were cabable of surviving in the rumen, lactic acid is something you do not want in the rumen since it's the cause of rumen acidosis.
> 
> The types of bacteria that colonize a rumen are very specific to the rumen and cannot live anywhere else especially in an oxygen environment since they are strictly anaerobic. The only way to help re-establish a rumen microbe colony is with a cud transplant directly from a healthy goat in the rare event that it's necessary.
> 
> ...


 Probiotics and yogurt do help the rumen.... if a goats rumen is severe and ready to shut down ...that is when... it is beneficial to use... cud transplant directly from a healthy goat .... Any drug given to an animal.. can break down the rumen... in certain circumstances... :wink:


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## Goat Biology (Feb 23, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> Probiotics and yogurt do help the rumen....


In what way do they _help_ the rumen?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> In what way do they help the rumen?


It will get the rumen back working.... Contains a source of live naturally occurring microorganisms... that will repopulate the rumen...to balance and get it working properly... restores gut flora....


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## Goat Biology (Feb 23, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> > In what way do they help the rumen?
> 
> 
> It will get the rumen back working.... Contains a source of live naturally occurring microorganisms... that will repopulate the rumen...to balance and get it working properly... restores gut flora....


Actually probiotic gels, boluses and powders contain dried bacterial fermentation products, not live bacteria so they cannot repopulate the rumen or anything else. http://www.probios.com/dairyPowders.html There is a bovine fresh rumen drench but it contains only intestinal bacteria and yeast, calcium, magnesium, phosphorous, propylene glycol and niacin. This is more of a nutrient drench for cows that are down from hypocalcemia or ketosis. Since it is a drench most of it will bypass the rumen when used.

Rumen bacteria cannot survive outside the rumen because oxygen is toxic to them and they do not form spores. Again the only way to introduce rumen bacteria to a rumen is with an immediate transplant of cud from a healthy goat.

Fortunately, using probiotics won't harm goats, but it won't do a sick goat any good either. The only danger is that someone may use probiotics to treat a sick goat which will delay treating them with something that will work.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Fortunately, using probiotics won't harm goats, but it won't do a sick goat any good either. The only danger is that someone may use probiotics to treat a sick goat which will delay treating them with something that will work.


May I ask ... Where are you getting your information...it seems very off to me....



> Rumen bacteria cannot survive outside the rumen because oxygen is toxic to them and they do not form spores. Again the only way to introduce rumen bacteria to a rumen is with an immediate transplant of cud from a healthy goat.


 If oxygen kills the good bacteria ...then may I ask... what would be the reason ....for the transplanting of cud to one animal to the other...the way you are saying.....it would kill.. the good in it...cause oxygen gets to it..... that wouldn't make since... :scratch: :shrug: .... I am sorry but... I do not agree with your findings here.....


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## Goat Biology (Feb 23, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> > Fortunately, using probiotics won't harm goats, but it won't do a sick goat any good either. The only danger is that someone may use probiotics to treat a sick goat which will delay treating them with something that will work.
> 
> 
> May I ask ... Where are you getting your information...it seems very off to me....
> ...


 If oxygen kills the good bacteria ...then may I ask... what would be the reason ....for the transplanting of cud to one animal to the other...the way you are saying.....it would kill.. the good in it...cause oxygen gets to it..... that wouldn't make since... :scratch: :shrug: .... I am sorry but... I do not agree with your findings here.....[/quote:2nd10erm]

I'm sorry if it seems "off" to you, but there is not a stitch of information anywhere out there including the probios company literature that states that probios is meant to be used as a treatment for anything. In fact, in the findings of one of the references I give at the end of this post, over the counter probiotic products rarely contain what they state on the label.

Personally I think probiotics for livestock and other animals are a huge waste of money.

You have to do a cud transplant immediately. The large wad of cud will have viable bacteria inside. Ruminants transfer microbes to each other during feeding near each other through droplets of saliva. If you watch a dam with her kids she focuses on licking their faces and mouths. She is transferring microbes to her kids. Fortunately few people have ever really needed to worry about a rumen that is in need of restarting since it takes a catastrophic event to stop a rumen.

Where do I get my information and knowledge about rumen microbiology?

Burk A. Dehority
Rumen Microbiology
2003, First Edition, Nottingham University Press

P.N. Hobson, and C.S. Stewart
The Rumen Microbial Ecosystem
Second Edition, 1997, Blackie Academic & Professional

Robert E. Hungate
The Rumen and its Microbes
1966, 2nd printing 1968, Academic Press

James B. Russell and Jennifer L. Rychlik
Factors that Alter Rumen Microbial Ecology
Science, vol 292 May 11, 2002 pgs 1119 -1122

D.C. Church, Editor
The Ruminant Animal Digestive Physiology and Nutrition
1988 by Prentice-Hall, Inc.

Plus personal communications with Dr. Dehority prior to his retirement.
This was the subject of one communication.

Lambs removed by hysterectomy and raised experimentally in isolation from all other sheep will not develop a normal colony of microbes in the rumen. Atypical bacteria will colonize but these bacteria are unable to digest cellulose, they instead can only survive on carbohydrates. These bacteria resemble the types of bacteria that live in their human keeper's mouths. When the keepers wore face masks so the lambs were not able to colonize their rumens, they did not survive.

Some articles on commercial probiotics:

Can Fam Physician. 2004 Apr;50:583-7.
Caveat emptor. "Probiotics" might not be what they seem.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15116804

J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2002 Mar 15;220(6):794-7.
Microbiologic evaluation of commercial probiotics.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11918274

Can Vet J. 2003 Mar;44(3):212-6.
Bacteriological evaluation of dog and cat diets that claim to contain probiotics.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12677689


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

OK...What you are showing us...with your findings... .. is very old and out dated...

vets ect... didn't know to much about goats back then...even to this day...we here on TGS have more knowledge... than alot of the vets out there....in fact... we have taught a few......

we had to learn from trial and error...on our own..because our vets ...did not know the answers......and there are so many off label drugs out there... 
some breeders...that where given advice from vets....or given meds ...had very bad consequences... and have killed some animals....  

now a days ...vets are starting... to get more education... as the goat industry grows........... all the old books are not correct..... so be careful...


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## Goat Biology (Feb 23, 2011)

toth boer goats said:


> OK...What you are showing us...with your findings... .. is very old and out dated...
> 
> vets ect... didn't know to much about goats back then...even to this day...we here on TGS have more knowledge... than alot of the vets out there....in fact... we have taught a few......
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness. :sigh:


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

Goat Biology said:


> Probiotics as well as yogurt have no microbes in it that will colonize a rumen. The bacteria in probiotic bacteria are intestinal bacteria primarily Lactobacillus types which produce lactic acid -- which, if these bacteria were cabable of surviving in the rumen, lactic acid is something you do not want in the rumen since it's the cause of rumen acidosis.
> 
> The types of bacteria that colonize a rumen are very specific to the rumen and cannot live anywhere else especially in an oxygen environment since they are strictly anaerobic. The only way to help re-establish a rumen microbe colony is with a cud transplant directly from a healthy goat in the rare event that it's necessary.
> 
> Wormers will not hurt a rumen since, with the exception of cocciostats, most of them are directed at large worms not at bacteria.


True...probiotics are gut flora...Nothing to do with the rumen....BUT


toth boer goats said:


> if a goats rumen is severe and ready to shut down ...that is when... it is beneficial to use... cud transplant directly from a healthy goat...


Also true...A cud would be rumen flora and therefore could be a source to re-introduce healthy flora to a "sick" rumen....
To me this sounds like dairy cow "doctrine" slightly modified for goats...A study of the Microbiological benefits, or lack there of, on probiotics for cats and dogs hardly apply to a ruminant. And textbooks are not medical journals but rather Theory...I think both of the above points are valid. The rest I'm not sure about...Sometimes the facts get lost in the muddle(?). Reminds me of ruminant nutrition 301...and that is not a good memory. The fistuals and all.


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## cariboubug (Feb 25, 2011)

OK, so if it is a cocciostat that the kid needs, then this might would be a concern about the rumen. But, I have only given him the herbal wormer and Pepto Bismal at this point, so I won't worry about that now. Gave him another dose of herbal wormer this a.m. I was unsuccessful at getting a fecal today. The two I found in the barn this a.m. were still loose, but wasn't sure how long they had been there, so discarded them. Thought I would wait for a fresh sample to take to the vet for a positive ID...but that didn't happen. I'm guessing here, but, either the herbal wormer is working (he felt great today and ran and played and ate like normal all day...did not even give Pepto today) or he is constipated?
I got zero samples from him today, but, it could be that he was so emptied out from going the last two days straight that maybe there was nothing to pass? I would think that if he were stopped up, he would not have felt so good. I know I wouldn't. :? So I guess we'll see what tomorrow brings.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> True...probiotics are gut flora...Nothing to do with the rumen....BUT


 It is all about the rumen....that is what the Probiotics help... it repopulates.... "the friendly flora in the rumen".....


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is OK to use cocciostat ...if the kid needs it... you can use the probiotics after treatment... to help get him back in order.... :wink: 

Sorry you couldn't get the fecal ... you are right ...it is best to know that it's fresh and from whom....

Is his bottom wet messy or dry? If it is dry the odds are... that he is back to normal and it would be good to stop the pepto...at least til ...you know and see him poop...
When they have the scours... they poo alot and are always wet looking back there...


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## cariboubug (Feb 25, 2011)

He is not wet...was a couple of days ago. I shaved his back end to help clean easier. I've taken the time to wash him, and that has helped me keep up with when he is going.
Today we did get more from him, although could never catch him in the act, so not the greatest samples. It was all the color of the herbal wormer, and slightly more solid. At least, it was coming out in clumps instead of squirts. No real formation to it, yet, but he again ran around like normal today. Did not give any Pepto.
Tomorrow the lab will be open, so I will run a sample in, regardless.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> He is not wet...was a couple of days ago.


 Keeping him clean does help with knowing ...if he is still scouring or not.... :wink:

Clumps is better...than squirts.... :hug:

Did you get the fecal into the lab today?


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## cariboubug (Feb 25, 2011)

Got the fecal to the lab. It showed few strongyle. That's it! So, who knows what it was. I am very suprised that there were NO coccidia, as even his mother had some. Hmmm. I may see how things go and take another sample in next week, just to be sure. After things settle down here, I'll unpack my microscope and take a look for myself. So, if the results only showed a few worms, should I let them be until next check? I hate to over-medicate. He still is acting fine. Need to get a weight on him, but he is growing like a weed. And today's fecals were more solid...still no berries, but not runny either.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Maybe he is getting to much momma's milk ....momma may have really rich milk.. that his system isn't adapting to.......that can create scouring.... :wink:


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## Devin (Feb 6, 2011)

Does your vet know that you have to wait like 10 minutes to look for coccidia eggs? If mother had them, so does he, and I bet they didn't wait long enough to look.


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## cariboubug (Feb 25, 2011)

I live in an area where we are blessed to have a lab through the state Ag. Ext. Service. I can have fecals done for $5 a sample. But, sometimes I do question their readings. For example, we got a new buck and they ran the sample and said he was clean, yet he has been coughing the last couple of days, with no other symptoms. I'm thinking lungworm, but I know that you have to look deeper for those as they sink to the bottom, and normally do not show up on the tests. I've posted on another topic discussion whether or not anyone has any experience with Levamisole. Haven't heard anything yet, though. I'll be glad to have the time to sit in front of my own microscope again and check for myself; but even then, I usually run one by the lab to double check my findings. A little Type A, I guess.

Anyhow, the kid is doing well today. Poops are fine, nursing and playing fine. Gave his momma her second dose of Valbazen for the tapes. We'll see what happens in a day or two, if it was that. When I re-do her fecal after the worming is done, I'll take one of his back in if nothing happens between now and then.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Glad the kid is doing well.... :hug:


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