# Learning To Critique MEAT goats 1



## Cedar Point Kikos

Since Margaret politely asked for mostly dairy goats to be posted in Learning to Critique for Dummies 1.5, I decided to make a new thread, for MEAT goats only 

Meat goats include (but are not limited to):
-Boer
-Kiko
-Spanish
-Savannah
-etc 
-Crosses of the above
-Any goat that is at least 50% of a meat breed
-50% Meat, 50% dairy is okay
-No purebred dairy goats

So, we'll see how this goes, and hopefully it's helpful to those who want to learn meat goat critique!


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## margaret

Thanks CPK


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Your welcome, Margaret!


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## spidy1

Ok I'll start! Diesel 10 months


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## spidy1

And Scarlet...


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## dreamacresfarm2

I'm hanging around this thread. I don't have meat goats but I like to learn new things.


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## Barnes19

Ah cool that sorts that out. I'd noticed the prevalence of meat goats seemed to be scaring the dairy critiquers off the other thread!

Glad you've brought Diesel over Brandi ... I like him ... I was about to do him over there. Nicely named by the way it really suits him!!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Diesel:
He's not set up so a good critique is hard to do 

Pros:
-LOVE the build on him!
-Great depth in rear barrel
-Good depth in middle barrel
-Rump is a good length
-Good neck length
-Well built front legs
-Good brisket
-Lovely breed definition in his head and ears
-Good width in chest
-Well set, nicely muscled shoulders
-Stocky rump
-Well muscled neck
-Neck blends nicely into shoulder


Cons:
-Lacks depth in heart girth
-Lacks bone ( I think)
-Rump is a tad steep
-Chine is a tad weak


Sorry I don't have more  If he was set up, it would be better


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## Barnes19

Ok here's my go at Diesel.

Well grown and heavyset for his age
Nice masculinity
Head, ears and horns show proper breed character
Strong jaw and muzzle
Nice length of rump
Barrel has excellent depth and capacity middle and rear
Good spring of barrel
Heart girth OK
Strong smooth shoulder, blends nicely into neck and withers
Good withers
Strong muscular neck
Nice brisket
Broad chest
Pasterns are short and sturdy
Nicely muscled hindquarters
Front legs look strong and straight, judging by photos 2 & 3

Topline could be stronger, but is still pretty good for a meat goat.
Back legs look a little posty?
Downhill
Steep rump

I'm not sure this is something normally considered, but I'd like to see a more even line to his undercarriage, which drops sharply away from the breastbone.


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## Barnes19

Oh snap!! I went to have lunch before finishing my critique of Diesel and didn't reload when I came back ...


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## LuvMyNigies

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Since Margaret politely asked for mostly dairy goats to be posted in Learning to Critique for Dummies 1.5, I decided to make a new thread, for MEAT goats only
> 
> Meat goats include (but are not limited to):
> -Boer
> -Kiko
> -Spanish
> -Savannah
> -etc
> -Crosses of the above
> -Any goat that is at least 50% of a meat breed
> -50% Meat, 50% dairy is okay
> -No purebred dairy goats
> 
> So, we'll see how this goes, and hopefully it's helpful to those who want to learn meat goat critique!


Oh, cool! Quick question--Is there a standard for critiquing meat goats like there is with dairy goats? I hope you don't mind if I stick around and learn some new things:book: maybe add my two cents.....


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## Barnes19

Yes there is a standard! at least there is for boers.

This is the US boer goats association judge's guidebook.
http://msue.anr.msu.edu/uploads/234/41592/USBGA_JUDGES_GUIDE_BOOK.pdf

Further down the doc it has drawings of goats and guidelines to how they should be.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Yes, there are standards  Would love it if you came on as well! 

Here is the Kiko one, go to the bottom of the page: http://www.kikogoats.com/index.php/why-kikos/kikos-perform/

And Spanish: http://www.spanishgoats.org/breedstyles.htm. And this is interesting: http://www.spanishgoats.org/bloodlines.htm. I wish they would do that with the Kiko bloodlines! 

Myotonic: http://myotonicgoatregistry.net/MGRbreeddescription/MGRBreeddescription.html

Can't seem to find one for the Savannah breed...but they sure look interesting!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Scarlet:

Pros:
-Strong jaw
-Her neck length is pretty good
-Her neck is feminine
-Good brisket
-Clean, sharp withers
-Tight, well placed shoulder
-Good stocky front legs
-Good bone
-Nice length of chine
-Topline is a nice length
-Nice body length
-In the last picture, she looks to have:
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel


Cons:
-Downhill
-Steep rump
-Short rump
-Posty hind legs
-Lacks power in her overall build


Poor, yes :lol:


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## BOERKING

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-livestock/pr...ng/1036989162?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

i like this buck the first pic is his mother and 2nd is him in fall do you think he would make a good breeder for meat? his back leg looks kinda small ill ask for a better pic

and ill get a pic of the sire soon thanks

his name is lighting heres a pic when he was a buckling 
http://www.silverspringgoats.com/bucks.php

hopefully the site owner wont mind for me posting these links


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## Cedar Point Kikos

http://www.theikga.org/meat_goat_parts.html. Labels parts of a meat goat. Might be handy for beginners 

BOERKING:

LOVE his dam. Huge body with lots of capacity, depth, brisket and good length. Meat and thick.
He looks fairly promising. Would like to see more width and depth. But I think he will turn out well. Do you have a very recent, side picture of him?


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## BrokenArrowRanch

I found 2 more does I may be interested in. Both registered and been shown. Doe 2 has placed better in shows and her price reflects that. I have pedigrees if anyone would like to see. 
Doe 1























Doe 2


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## BOERKING

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> http://www.theikga.org/meat_goat_parts.html. Labels parts of a meat goat. Might be handy for beginners
> 
> BOERKING:
> 
> LOVE his dam. Huge body with lots of capacity, depth, brisket and good length. Meat and thick.
> He looks fairly promising. Would like to see more width and depth. But I think he will turn out well. Do you have a very recent, side picture of him?


Hi yes the owner will send me a side picture soon


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Doe #1:

Pros:
-Lovely curve to head
-Nicely placed horns
-Deep jaw
-Nice is a good length...not overly long or short
-Neck is clean, well muscled but still feminine
-Neck blends nicely into withers, shoulders, and brisket
-Good brisket
-Well placed, square front legs
-Big boned
-Topline is smooth
-Topline is a nice length
-Nice depth in heels
-Good deep hooves
-Good depth in rear barrel
-Nice length in chine
-Rump is a really nice length
-Rump is at a good angle
-Back legs are well placed
-Nice muscling on thigh
-Nice width in chest
-Nice wide shoulders
-Thick neck
-Nice even width front to back
-Nice width between hocks...though I think her back legs are placed too far apart for the picture 
-Good body length
-Nice muscling on rump
-Smooth, well blended body
-Good breed character


Cons:
-I would like it if her jaw was a bit longer
-Lacks chest floor
-Lacks shoulder...shoulder is small, with almost no wither area
-I think her front pasterns are too upright
-Lacks depth in heart girth
-Could use more capacity
-Could use more depth in middle barrel
-Back pasterns are too short and upright
-Lacks width in horn base
-Inside front hooves look to be weaker then the outside hoof
-Toes out a tad front and rear ?
-Twist could be deeper



Doe #2:

Pros:
-Nice curve to head
-I like her jaw length
-Deep jaw
-Lower neck is thick
-Pretty good neck length
-Nice large shoulder...shoulder is well muscled, balanced with the rest of her body and strong
-Clean withers
-Good brisket
-Good length and breadth in shoulder
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in middle and rear barrel
-Good chine length
-Good body capacity
-Well placed, square front legs
-Big boned
-Front pasterns are at a nicer angle then Doe #1's
-Lots of depth in front hooves
-Smooth, even topline
-Lovely, well muscled rump
-Well angled, strong back legs
-Rump length is ok, but not great
-Good muscling on thigh
-Lovely rump width
-Good width between hocks
-Good width in chest
-Nice length in chest


Cons:
-Her head isn't as pretty has Doe #1's 
-Upper neck is too thin in my opinion for a meat doe
-I don't like how her shoulder seems to "grow" into her neck
-Lacks chest floor
-Steep rump
-Lacks depth in twist
-Shoulders aren't are wide as Doe #1's
-Lacks even width from front to back


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## Cedar Point Kikos

So, I think I have Doe #1 a better critique then Doe #2 

But:
-Doe 2 as better shoulders then Doe 1
-Doe 2 has better depth then Doe 1
-Doe 2 has overall a better reproducing body then Doe 1
-Doe 2 has a better topline then Doe 1
-Doe 1 as a better rump then Doe 2
-Doe 1 has a better neck then Doe 2

At first I liked Doe #1 better, but now I like Doe #2 better  Doe #2 has a better production character 

Now, we NEED Sydney!!!


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## spidy1

What do you think of Desiree/Dezz? She's about 8-9 months, I don't have help setting them up so I hope the pics work...


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## BOERKING

This is lightings sire
What do you guys think?
Ill get more oics of lighting soon


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## JohnJ

Great thread! I've been trying to get better at judging conformation. Could you do these two? Thanks


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## Cedar Point Kikos

BOERKING said:


> This is lightings sire
> What do you guys think?
> Ill get more pics of lighting soon


Very nice buck! Thick, well muscled, good length, good breed character. I think Lighting will turn out well with that kind of genetics, coming from both his sire and dam


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Desiree:

Pros:
-Good neck length
-Good length in jaw
-Lovely, droopy ears 
-Clean withers
-Good shoulder
-Neck blends nicely into shoulder & brisket
-Front legs are set squarely below shoulder
-Good stocky front legs
-Nicely angled front pasterns
-Good depth in heart girth for her age
-Fairly good body length
-Nice width in horn base
-Good rump length
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-Good body capacity
-Nice meaty hindquarter
-Good width in chest
-Good with of shoulders


Cons:
-Lacks brisket
-Posty hind legs
-Rump is higher then withers...but she's still growing 
-Would like to see a bit bigger bone on back legs
-Shoulder could be a little bigger


Overall, a nice little girl


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## Cedar Point Kikos

JohnJ, I'll do your bucks soon!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

First buck: (Blaze)

Pros:
-Great width in shoulders
-Lots of meat, even when viewed from the front
-Stocky legs
-Big boned
-Nice curve to head
-Nice width in head
-Looks to have good even width from front to back
-Great body length
-Good thick neck
-Neck blends nicely into shoulder
-Good brisket
-Sharp withers, without being too sharp
-Big, well set shoulder
-Good chest floor
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-Good body capacity
-Good rump length
-Well muscled thigh
-Well muscled rump
-Well set, stocky back legs
-Looks to have good width between hocks

Cons:
-Would like his knees to be a bit farther apart 
-Weak topline
-Weak chine
-Steep rump


The main thing about him is his topline...it dips too much


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## Cedar Point Kikos

2nd Buck: (red on front leg)

Pros:
-Thick neck
-Thick shoulder
-Good width in shoulders
-Big boned
-Good, well set front legs
-Good neck length
-Well muscled neck
-Big, well set, well muscled shoulder
-Good brisket
-Front legs set squarely
-Nice withers
-Good body length
-Nicely rounded rump
-Good rump length
-Rump angle isn't too bad
-Well placed back legs


Cons:
-Could use more width between front legs
-Lacks depth in heart girth
-Lacks depth in rear and middle barrel
-Weak topline


Hopefully someone else does them now  Cause this is short


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## Barnes19

Lightning:

Pros:
Good strong level topline
Nice level rump, which I see his sire has as well ... a very strong point.
Straight front legs
Rear legs well placed
Nice shoulder
Good withers
Nice muscled neck
Head, ears and colouring show good bred character
Nice front pasterns
Will have good depth and capacity of rear barrel in maturity. His sire has excellent depth of barrel. 


Cons:
Lacks heart girth
Needs more muscling, particularly in his hind quarters.
Seems light boned.

His biggest fault to me is that he is not very heavyset in bone and muscle. His sire is excellent here though so its likely he will fill out more with maturity. It is important though that a boer grows muscle fast ... you want kids that will make lots of meat quickly. If his line is slow or late to muscle up this would concern me. Breed him to well muscled does with fast growing kids!

His strongest point, visible in his sire too so he should pass it on to his kids, is his strong level topline and rump. Boers are often faulty in this point, so this is excellent.

I think he will make a very handsome buck.


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## JohnJ

Thanks a bunch CPK. Their toplines could definitely be straighter. I'm hoping they get better by the time they turn 1. It makes it hard to critique them when you see them everyday.


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## bbpygmy

12 month old Pygmy doe


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## bbpygmy

8 month old Pygmy buck


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## Blackheadedboers

Great Thread!! I was wondering what you think of this prospect buck? Thanks in advance! He is also only 10 months old.


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## Barnes19

10 month old boer buck in post #33

I'd say hes a pretty good prospect. A few faults: but mostly pretty nice and will breed good meaty kids.

Heavy boned and muscled
Strong masculine bearing - particularly for a 10mo.
Muscling well proportioned, both front and hindquarters equally muscled
Long level rump
Great length of body
Good shoulders
Good strong sturdy legs
Short strong pasterns
Well sprung barrel
Good capacity in his middle barrel
Really wide chest
Broad muscled back


I'd like to see more body capacity in the rear. But he is only young, this is probably why.
He needs a touch more heart girth.
He could use more strength in his chine. But most boers are much worse in this regard, his topline is comparatively not that bad. His topline will be an improvement over the average boer doe.
There is something really odd about the way his neck meets his body ... I think it is an effect of such a heavily muscled neck meeting a slightly low chine ... makes his neck look like it doesn't quite belong. Like its had an extra bit pasted on top. If his topline had been straighter uphill, the effect would be better.

Possibly this odd effect may be partly because he is young, it may even out in some way when he matures. Its not an effect I've seen before so I can't be sure.

Has he got sores on his front legs??


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## Blackheadedboers

Thank, no the previous owner said it was from show clipping.


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## Crossroads Boers

Blackheadedboers said:


> Great Thread!! I was wondering what you think of this prospect buck? Thanks in advance! He is also only 10 months old.


Whoa.... NICE!!!


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## Crossroads Boers

BrokenArrowRanch said:


> I found 2 more does I may be interested in. Both registered and been shown. Doe 2 has placed better in shows and her price reflects that. I have pedigrees if anyone would like to see.


Doe #1 needs to come live at Crossroads!


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## Blackheadedboers

Crossroads Boers said:


> Whoa.... NICE!!!


Thank you! I'm excited to see how he grows and what kind of kids he'll throw.


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## Barnes19

Hmmm ... pygmies ... interesting ... now I know those are very different, looks like fun. bbpygmy ... I'm pretty sure your probably know more about pygmy conformation than a lot of us ... would you be 'teacher' on these please?

Almost like learning all over again from the 'legs x 4, head x 1" stage LOL.

12mo doe
Pros:
Overall good breed character, nice stocky build typical of pygmies.
Nice dished profile
Awesome body capacity, good depth and spring of barrel all the way.
Body length to height nicely proportioned
Good legs
Pasterns and hooves are also good
Nice strong shoulder
Neck is well proportioned and blends nicely into shoulder

Cons:
Topline could be straighter and more even
Rump is a bit steep? I know pygmies should have some slope, but this looks like just a little bit much to me?


8mo buck
Good breed character
Shows nice masculinity
Proportionally correct
Topline is better than the doe's ... still has a little dip in the chine though ... pygmies are supposed to be straight, correct?
Good depth of heart girth
Neck is strong
Front legs straight
Hind legs have good angulation
Strong shoulder
Pasterns are good
I like his rump very much ... partially obscured by long hair, but think its probably about perfect?

Cons:
Could use more depth in his rear barrel ... but he is young, this may well improve
Needs more bone in his legs?
Slight dip in his chine


Please pick this apart!


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## Barnes19

I'd be very, very interested to learn Kikos.
After all they come from my country and a lot of goats around here are Kiko, or essentially the same bloodline mix and type.

This is Miss ... she is not an 'official' Kiko, but is Kiko type, basically the same breeding but more recent.
She is 50% NZ feral goat, the other 50% was a Saanen who had a tiny bit of Boer in her background ... but it was like 3-4 generations back.

Hoping someone else has some Kikos they can post as well.


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## RustyBucketBoers

What do you guys think of this doeling? Not sure if you can really critique kids..


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## Cedar Point Kikos

RustyBucketBoers said:


> What do you guys think of this doeling? Not sure if you can really critique kids..


No, we can't really critique a kid that young...but, she sure is cute!! 



Barnes19 said:


> I'd be very, very interested to learn Kikos....Hoping someone else has some Kikos they can post as well.


Me too! I have a couple Kikos, AKA 1 now, and a past Kiko buck (getting a new one this fall!!). I can post pictures of them  I think WildHeartsRanch has Kikos as well....

...and if I get really adventurous, I may try the pygmies as well


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## bbpygmy

CPK- I have PLENTY of pygmies if you would like to critique them


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## Cedar Point Kikos

BlackHeadedBoer's prospect buck:

Pros:
-Great width in chest
-Really good width in shoulders
-Thick, well muscled neck base
-Nice nose curve
-Good chest floor
-Good breed character in head
-Good shoulder, well balanced and tight
-Nice angle on front pasterns
-Front legs set squarely under shoulder
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-Good body capacity
-Good body length
-Lovely, level rump
-Long rump
-Fairly well muscled rump
-Good length in chine
-Good length in loin
-Good legs, straight and fairly well boned
-Smooth, well muscled body
-Good width overall
-Good muscle tone overall
-Smooth, good breed character
-Good width between hocks
-Good even width


Cons:
-Could use more muscle on thigh
-I don't like how his neck arches after his shoulder, makes it look like he has a weak chine, which he doesn't 
-Could use more power in hindquarter
-Lacks a bit in brisket
-Lacks a bit of bone


For 10 months old, he's looking REALLY good!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> 10 month old boer buck in post #33
> 
> I'd say hes a pretty good prospect. A few faults: but mostly pretty nice and will breed good meaty kids.
> 
> Heavy boned and muscled
> Strong masculine bearing - particularly for a 10mo.
> Muscling well proportioned, both front and hindquarters equally muscled
> Long level rump
> Great length of body
> Good shoulders
> Good strong sturdy legs
> Short strong pasterns
> Well sprung barrel
> Good capacity in his middle barrel
> Really wide chest
> Broad muscled back
> 
> I'd like to see more body capacity in the rear. But he is only young, this is probably why.
> He needs a touch more heart girth.
> He could use more strength in his chine. But most boers are much worse in this regard, his topline is comparatively not that bad. His topline will be an improvement over the average boer doe.
> There is something really odd about the way his neck meets his body ... I think it is an effect of such a heavily muscled neck meeting a slightly low chine ... makes his neck look like it doesn't quite belong. Like its had an extra bit pasted on top. If his topline had been straighter uphill, the effect would be better.
> 
> Possibly this odd effect may be partly because he is young, it may even out in some way when he matures. Its not an effect I've seen before so I can't be sure.
> 
> Has he got sores on his front legs??


Good job, Stacey! I can see some things I've missed with him


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Stacey's Miss:

Pros:
-Lovely long jaw
-Good deep jaw
-Strong jaw
-Clean, feminine neck
-Nice shoulder, well set and smooth
-Sharp, uphill withers
-Well set front legs
-Neck blends nicely into shoulder and withers
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth middle barrel
-Really nice depth in rear barrel
-Good body capacity
-Well set, balanced hindquarter
-Shoulder/barrel/hindquarters are smoothly blended and strong
-Good rump length
-Fairly level from withers to hips ( what I mean is, her shoulders are not lower then her hips, but basically level)
-Good strong legs
-Well angled back legs
-Nice incurve to thigh
-Pasterns at that 45 degree angle that is preferred in Kikos

Cons:
-Short neck
-Lacks brisket
-Weak chine
-Steep rump
-Head's a little big for her body


A nice little production doe, looks like she can raise kids without any help, does well on bush, without problem with parasites


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## LuvMyNigies

Are pygmies considered meat goats? Are they critiqued the same way?


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## Cedar Point Kikos

I kind of think they lean more toward the meat, then dairy, considering their build...I really have no idea how they are critiqued  But I try to use a combination of Meat and Dairy 

Oh, and LuvMyNigies, could you post pictures of your Kikos set up? So we could practice on them? Thanks!


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## Blackheadedboers

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> BlackHeadedBoer's prospect buck:
> 
> Pros:
> -Great width in chest
> -Really good width in shoulders
> -Thick, well muscled neck base
> -Nice nose curve
> -Good chest floor
> -Good breed character in head
> -Good shoulder, well balanced and tight
> -Nice angle on front pasterns
> -Front legs set squarely under shoulder
> -Good depth in heart girth
> -Good depth in rear and middle barrel
> -Good body capacity
> -Good body length
> -Lovely, level rump
> -Long rump
> -Fairly well muscled rump
> -Good length in chine
> -Good length in loin
> -Good legs, straight and fairly well boned
> -Smooth, well muscled body
> -Good width overall
> -Good muscle tone overall
> -Smooth, good breed character
> -Good width between hocks
> -Good even width
> 
> Cons:
> -Could use more muscle on thigh
> -I don't like how his neck arches after his shoulder, makes it look like he has a weak chine, which he doesn't
> -Could use more power in hindquarter
> -Lacks a bit in brisket
> -Lacks a bit of bone
> 
> For 10 months old, he's looking REALLY good!


Thank you, both of you!! thats some good info to work with.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

I need better pictures of my goats - my buck is the only one worth critiquing, even though he's not "set up." I *might* try taking him to a show in April if he gets his attitude in check!


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## Barnes19

A link to this standard for pygmies
http://www.npga-pygmy.com/resources/conformation/scorecard_db.asp
was posted in the thread "Pygmy judging".
http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/pygmy-judging-172638/

It sounds like they are critiqued rather differently in some ways.
It also sounds like bbpygmies is the expert! Read through that thread and the standard above if you're looking for info on pygmy conformation. I found it very informative and fascinating.


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## bbpygmy

I'll critique my own goats as an example 
Yearling Pygmy wether (he isn't set up the greatest) 








Pros: -nice muscling throughout
-nice angulation to the rear legs
-stands on strong, heavy bone
-nice dish profile
-nice width in the chest floor 
-smoothly blended 
-nice width between the hocks while on the move (although I'd like to see a little more width)
- tight shoulder attachment

Cons: -dip in the chine (it's hard to find a full grown Pygmy that doesn't have this problem because of their weight) 
-needs more forward extension to the sternum 
-set to the rear legs is poor

(This wether is considered a "bronze" wether because he 5x best and 5x Reserve best wether wins.)

6 year old Pygmy doe 








Pros: -nice up right head carriage
-awesome depth increasing from the heart girth back into the flank
-Amazing body capacity 
-nice bone (could use more)
-nice angulation to the rear legs(hard to see because of her hair)
-nice animated expression
-nice width in the chest floor
-ok width in the rear (I'd like to see more)

Cons: -dip in the chine 
-I'd like to see more extension to the sternum
-I'd like to see more bone 
-I'd like to see a tighter shoulder attachment

(This doe has 2x grands in the NPGA show ring one more and she would have been a PGCH)

I'll do a couple more later


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## bbpygmy

The doe looks as though she has a really steep rump, but if she were to put her tail up, it's really not steep. She's also hunched up a little, making her it look even worse.


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## spidy1

I seam to have that problem two, hunching and tail down making their rumps look steep.


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## janecb

I can critique pygmies as well. I get asked by judges when I'm going for my license and they're always surprised that I still have a couple of years to wait. They also get competitive about which region convention will be in for when I do get my license... we don't have many young people taking the judging tests 

I'll go get some pictures for you, bbpygmy, so its more of a challenge and not just judging your own goats who you're always around - although my goats look a bit scrappy from the change of season and being heavily pregnant 

And I HATE hunchy butt. My wether lost his class both days because his tail was down and it made him look awful. He'd just been tattooed, so trying to hold it up was out of the question unless I wanted him rocketing around the ring. It's gotten to the point where I don't keep goats who hold their tails down, unless they're the most spectacular goats I've ever seen - to me, it's akin to a goat who doesn't have upright head carriage. It distracts from general appearance.


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## bbpygmy

How much longer until you can get your judges license, Janecb? I'm taking mine in 2017 ️ I think I read somewhere in one of the memos that 2017 convention is in Ohio...


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## janecb

2018... I would take it in 2017, but I was born a few days over the cutoff. When I was reading the rules, I almost cried... I may be able to talk my way out of it, but I'm fine with waiting another year if I have to.

I've heard Arizona for 2018, but if region 2 (California) is 2015, region 8 (Florida) is 2016, followed by region 3 (Arizona) in 2017, and region 4 (Ohio) in 2018. The order is 6, 2, 8, 3, 4, 1, 7, and 5 (by region) but there is some switching around that can happen... I can't remember, and the website is down.

But here are some goats...










4 y/o doe who is HEAVILY pregnant. Of course it's the coldest day in a while, so she's fluffed up and hunchy. She also refused to let me set her up.










4 y/o wether. He's also fluffed up. He's a bronze (5 best wethers and I'm not sure how many reserve best wethers... oops).










6 y/o doe, who is a PGCH. Her muscle fell off a bit in this picture, as she hadn't recovered from a tough kidding.


----------



## bbpygmy

I really like that PGCH doe! I might wait and take mine in 2018 so I have a year to study.


----------



## janecb

Thank you! She's a bit daintier than most permanents, but very elegant and feminine, with lots of style in the ring. She isn't as deep as your doe with two grands, though, which is something I'm breeding to improve on with her. I'm going to try to breed her to my PGCH buck for late summer/early fall kids, and hopefully I'll be able to get a master or two on her before she's totally retired. 

And the extra year to study is why I'm considering not pushing to take it early in 2017. I've seen a lot of people fail the exam in my area, and I definitely want more time to study for the practical part of it.


----------



## bbpygmy

Here's my 4 year old PGCH doe, she's going for her Master Champion this year. I haven't had her long enough to notice many Cons but she's AMAZING ️
This is PGCH Country Farms Absolutely Perfect (the name suits her!)

Pros: AMAZING width front and rear
-AMAZING forward extension to the sternum 
-AMAZING rear leg angulation
-AMAZING upright head carriage/expression 
-nice strait forelegs 
-pretty nice topline (I would like to see a straiter chine)
-Nice muscling 
-Nice smoothness of blending
-nice tight shoulders

Cons: I'd like to straiten her chine 
(There's more cons, but I'll have to groom her to find the flaws, I haven't shown her yet either)


----------



## bbpygmy

janecb said:


> Thank you! She's a bit daintier than most permanents, but very elegant and feminine, with lots of style in the ring. She isn't as deep as your doe with two grands, though, which is something I'm breeding to improve on with her. I'm going to try to breed her to my PGCH buck for late summer/early fall kids, and hopefully I'll be able to get a master or two on her before she's totally retired.
> 
> And the extra year to study is why I'm considering not pushing to take it early in 2017. I've seen a lot of people fail the exam in my area, and I definitely want more time to study for the practical part of it.


Maybe we could do the judges training at the same time ️ I'm planning on 2018. We've had a lot of people fail theirs around here too, which is the reason why there were no new judges last year


----------



## bbpygmy

Last year's convention during judges training


----------



## LuvMyNigies

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> I kind of think they lean more toward the meat, then dairy, considering their build...I really have no idea how they are critiqued  But I try to use a combination of Meat and Dairy


Thank you. 



Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Oh, and LuvMyNigies, could you post pictures of your Kikos set up? So we could practice on them? Thanks! :smile:


Yeah I can try to post some pics of our goats, but you have to remember that I've never set up goats before. 
~The weather is pretty yucky right now, but hopefully it will clear up soon and I will be able to get some decent pictures.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

I think we need a new thread for Pygmies too


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> I need better pictures of my goats - my buck is the only one worth critiquing, even though he's not "set up." I *might* try taking him to a show in April if he gets his attitude in check!


Is he a Kiko?  Very nice looking buck 



janecb said:


> But here are some goats...
> 
> 4 y/o doe who is HEAVILY pregnant. Of course it's the coldest day in a while, so she's fluffed up and hunchy. She also refused to let me set her up.
> 
> 4 y/o wether. He's also fluffed up. He's a bronze (5 best wethers and I'm not sure how many reserve best wethers... oops).
> 
> 6 y/o doe, who is a PGCH. Her muscle fell off a bit in this picture, as she hadn't recovered from a tough kidding.


I can't see any pictures....



LuvMyNigies said:


> Yeah I can try to post some pics of our goats, but you have to remember that I've never set up goats before. :razz:
> ~The weather is pretty yucky right now, but hopefully it will clear up soon and I will be able to get some decent pictures. :smile:


Sounds good! 



Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> I think we need a new thread for Pygmies too :smile:


Actually, there is a Pygmy Critiquing Thread....


----------



## spidy1

Here's the link... http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/learning-critique-pygmy-goats-d-175972/


----------



## LuvMyNigies

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> I need better pictures of my goats - my buck is the only one worth critiquing, even though he's not "set up." I *might* try taking him to a show in April if he gets his attitude in check!


I can't really critique him, but he is _beautiful_!  My brother would *love* him!!!!


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

100% nz.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

WHR's 100% NZ Kiko buck: (On page 5)

Pros:
-Head well proportioned to body
-Jaws well matched
-Lovely strong broad muzzle
-Really nice the width in his forehead
-Strong muzzle and jaw
-Balanced neck length
-Really nice muscling on neck
-Neck blends smoothly into chest
-Good brisket
-Good shoulder, well muscled, well set
-Shoulder blends nicely into withers
-Good chest floor
-Length from withers to elbow and the length from withers to ground is the same, well balanced 
-Strong upright legs
-Good 45 degree angle in fore pasterns
-Great depth in heart girth
-Good body capacity
-Fairly good, rectangle type body
-Good loin length
-Good depth in rear and middle barrel
-The rump flows down to the hock with a slight angle from pin bone to the hock. 
-Strong rear pasterns
-Really good overall muscling

Cons:
-Could use more brisket
-Could use more body length
-Topline needs to be more level
-Needs a bit more power in rump
-Topline / rump needs to flow better
-Steep rump

( I used this: http://www.kikogoats.com/Conformation-Buck.pdf)

Very nice buck 

P.S. I sure hope you post pictures of your does soon!  Cause I looked at your website, and you have some real nice girls there


----------



## Lstein

Very interesting topic, need to get some pics of my does to critic.


----------



## Bree_6293

Can I post a boer x on this one? She is cross with a mini. 


From Australia and breeding australian miniature goats and boer goats. Plus I have horses for eventing and heaps more animals!!!!


----------



## spidy1

Why not?!!!!!!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Sure you can!  They just have to be at least 50% meat breed in order to post on here.


----------



## alyssamilli87

Breeding doe prospect pictured at 3 and 6 weeks. Registerable at 75%. Going to go pick her up Saturday...Is she worth the $150 or should I keep looking?


----------



## alyssamilli87

Breeding doe prospect pictured at 3 and 6 weeks. Registerable at 75%. She will be 2 months on the 28th. Going to go pick her up Saturday...Is she worth the $150 or should I keep looking?


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

She looks promising, I would take her for $150.  She looks stocky, well built with good depth, width and length


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## alyssamilli87

I think so too! Thank you Cedar Point Kikos!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Here's Caelie, a PB Kiko doe...she's around a year and a half in the summer pictures...never mind her coat though 























And this is her recently:








And here's a picture of her udder, 12 hour fill  I really like it


----------



## LuvMyNigies

I got pictures! I'm sure they're probably not too good, but here goes...

This is 8-month old (at the time) Kiko buckling Hidalgo.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Gotta love the Kiko back hair :lol:

LMN's Kiko buck:

Pros:
-He's got the cutest head! 
-Very nice size for 8 months
-Good neck length
-Well matched jaws
-Neck is strong and well muscled, especially for his age 
-Neck blends real nicely into shoulder and brisket
-Well set shoulder
-Lovely front legs - straight, well set
-Front pasterns are at a nice 45 degree angle
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in middle and rear barrel
-Good 'rectangle' type body
-Good body capacity
-Fairly good body length
-Rump is in proportion with rest of his body
-Good rump length
-The rump flows nicely down to the hock
-Nice hind pasterns



Cons:
-Could use more brisket
-Chest floor could be a tad better
-Shoulder could be wider, front-to-back wise
-Rib cage isn't 60% of total height 


Neutral:
-Can't see his withers
-Can't see topline 
-Can't say anything about loin muscling


Overall, a nice, promising young buck!


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

Hey, I found a good photo on my phone! Need to get this one on the website. 100% NZ doe, pictured at 10 months.


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

These are both Boer/Saanen, 6 year old and 10 month old.


----------



## Barnes19

Kiko back hair LOL ... yes that comes from the feral!! Most pronounced in the bucks, but there is a little feral doe up the road, the neighbour's pet, who in her summer coat has short glossy black hair. But running right down her spine is this long silky strip. The hair is about 4 inches long!! Its just a narrow stripe, and all lays to one side ... like a horse's mane but right down the backbone. Its lovely.

Caelie

Head feminine and well proportioned
Level at wither and hip
Good length of neck
Neck blends nicely into body (she's had a collar sitting on in the paddock right?)
Strong shoulder
Nice strong straight forelegs, of proportionate length
Rump is a decent length, and follows a nice line down to the hock
Wide rump
Wither is nice and sharp
Good brisket
Good width of chest and proportional shoulders
Good depth of heart girth
Middle and rear barrel have good depth
Body is a good rectangular build
Pasterns are short and at correct angle
Udder is a nice, rounded, well attached tidy little kiko style. Very nice. Slightly larger one side than the other ... not really a big problem.

Topline could be straighter, needs a stronger chine
Back hooves do not point straight ahead ... her toes stick out

The breed standard doesn't mention it that I see, but her hocky back legs are a feature of the agile feral goat. I don't know what the opinion on hockiness is in Kikos. Its not a handicap for a goat that doesn't need to make room for a large udder. But they're also what is causing her toes to spring out of line ... Miss is the same.


----------



## Barnes19

WHR 10 mo NZ doe

Nice solid well muscled girl!
Clean feminine head
Strong straight level topline
Well muscled back
Nice solid well blended shoulder
Good depth of heart girth
Very nice depth of barrel
Awesome depth of rear barrel
Good spring of ribs
Strong straight front legs
Front pasterns at proper angle
Rump is a good length and well muscled
Rump is steep, but does follow a very nice flowing line down to the hock

Back legs are placed a bit off, hard to say. I think they look a bit posty.
Length of withers to elbow does not match elbow to ground.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> Kiko back hair LOL ... yes that comes from the feral!! Most pronounced in the bucks, but there is a little feral doe up the road, the neighbour's pet, who in her summer coat has short glossy black hair. But running right down her spine is this long silky strip. The hair is about 4 inches long!! Its just a narrow stripe, and all lays to one side ... like a horse's mane but right down the backbone. Its lovely.
> 
> Caelie
> 
> Head feminine and well proportioned
> Level at wither and hip
> Good length of neck
> Neck blends nicely into body (she's had a collar sitting on in the paddock right?)
> Strong shoulder
> Nice strong straight forelegs, of proportionate length
> Rump is a decent length, and follows a nice line down to the hock
> Wide rump
> Wither is nice and sharp
> Good brisket
> Good width of chest and proportional shoulders
> Good depth of heart girth
> Middle and rear barrel have good depth
> Body is a good rectangular build
> Pasterns are short and at correct angle
> Udder is a nice, rounded, well attached tidy little kiko style. Very nice. Slightly larger one side than the other ... not really a big problem.
> 
> Topline could be straighter, needs a stronger chine
> Back hooves do not point straight ahead ... her toes stick out
> 
> The breed standard doesn't mention it that I see, but her hocky back legs are a feature of the agile feral goat. I don't know what the opinion on hockiness is in Kikos. Its not a handicap for a goat that doesn't need to make room for a large udder. But they're also what is causing her toes to spring out of line ... Miss is the same.


Thanks! Yes, she wears a collar all the time  I'm really happy with her width and body build overall  Her chine I think is her weakest point. Yeah, she does tend to toe out in the back


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

I like a big milky udder on my Kikos, so I want enough space at the rear for it. I just did kidding haircuts on the ones due next month including that NZ doe, and the younger Boer/Saanen. The Kiko is decent, and the other definitely got a dairy hind end, I love it - but my Kiko/Boer doeling is hocky as all heck, I could barely get her wide enough to show her udder. (She was also the most upset about it.) Her rump looks better when she stands square and her heartgirth is getting deeper as she grows, but I won't know exactly where she'll end up till probably late next year. I'm sure happy with her so far though - she wasn't my first choice in the ad but when I saw her in person I couldn't look away. Dam has an amazing udder too


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

Baby udders!


----------



## LuvMyNigies

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Gotta love the Kiko back hair :lol:
> 
> LMN's Kiko buck:
> 
> Pros:
> -He's got the cutest head!
> -Very nice size for 8 months
> -Good neck length
> -Well matched jaws
> -Neck is strong and well muscled, especially for his age
> -Neck blends real nicely into shoulder and brisket
> -Well set shoulder
> -Lovely front legs - straight, well set
> -Front pasterns are at a nice 45 degree angle
> -Good depth in heart girth
> -Good depth in middle and rear barrel
> -Good 'rectangle' type body
> -Good body capacity
> -Fairly good body length
> -Rump is in proportion with rest of his body
> -Good rump length
> -The rump flows nicely down to the hock
> -Nice hind pasterns
> 
> Cons:
> -Could use more brisket
> -Chest floor could be a tad better
> -Shoulder could be wider, front-to-back wise
> -Rib cage isn't 60% of total height
> 
> Neutral:
> -Can't see his withers
> -Can't see topline
> -Can't say anything about loin muscling
> 
> Overall, a nice, promising young buck!


Wow! I had no idea he was all that!  Only _four_ cons--Nice!  Thank you.
Would you like me to post another of our kikos? I have some pictures of several of them.


----------



## pierceingstarr

This is pretty cool to see all different kinds of body styles and it is a great idea for all of us to learn. Thank you. So with that being said I have two boys. Excalibur as my main herd sire, the oldest and Mr. T. He is 10 months old in the photos. Thank you. No, I do not know how to hold them the correct way. This is what y'all get. LOL


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

LuvMyNigies said:


> Wow! I had no idea he was all that!  Only _four_ cons--Nice!  Thank you.
> Would you like me to post another of our kikos? I have some pictures of several of them.


Yeah  I couldn't think of any more! :lol: Sure! I like doing Kikos, especially since they are my main breed


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Caelie:

Pros:
-Strong jaw
-Good jaw length
-Head is feminine
-Matched jaws
-Neck is in proportion with her body
-Neck blends smoothly into chest/brisket
-Good width in fore chest
-Well proportioned shoulders
-Shoulders blend smoothly into withers
-Front legs perpendicular to chest
-Front feet point straight ahead
-Strong pasterns at an approximately 45 degree angle
-Good, rectangle type body
-Topline is reasonably straight, but could be better
-Rib cage is well sprung in proportion to depth of body
-Rump is proportion with rest of body
-Rump flows nicely with topline down to the hock, with a slight angle from pin bones to hock
-Hocks have a slight angle ending up at 45 degree angle rear pasterns
-Udder is well rounded
-Good suspension
-Does not hang below the hock
-Both sides are functional
-Teats are without deformities
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Clean throat latch
-Good brisket
-Sharp withers
-Neck blends smoothly into withers
-Neck blends smoothly into shoulder blade and brisket
-Shoulder is well set, smooth and well proportioned
-Tight elbows
-Withers are higher then hips
-Good chest floor
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good length in chine
-Good length in loin
-Good depth in barrel
-Excellent body capacity (doesn't look like it, but man, does she ever hide kids and food well! )
-Good length from hips to pins
-Nicely muscled thigh
-Nice rump angle ( I actually like that angle)
-Clean sharp legs
-Legs are well set and sturdy
-Good cannon bone length
-Even width in rump
-Thurls look pretty even
-Good width in shoulders

-Good teat diameter
-Good rear udder height
-Nice rear udder arch
-Good medial
-Udder well attached at back
-Even udder floor
-Evenly divided halves

Cons:
-Length from withers to elbow isn't the same as elbow to ground
-Depth of body isn't 60% of total height
-Last year, teats were too small
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cow hocked
-Uneven topline
-Pasterns are a tad too angled
-Would like more depth in rear barrel, but I think that will come with age

-Teat placed a little too far out
-Lacks capacity

All pros and cons before this line (~~~) are from the Doe Standard: http://www.kikogoats.com/Conformation-Doe.pdf
the pros/cons after that are a combination of what I have learned


----------



## amanda2017

Hers one for you! She's a 3 year old fullblood boer. *pregnant*


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

^^^ above doe. Really hard to critique her in these pictures.

Pros:
-Wide shoulders
-Good width in chest floor
-Well muscled neck and shoulders
-Good body length
-Good depth in middle and rear barrel
-Good fore pasterns
-Good topline
-Good rump length
-Good body capacity
-Good width in rump
-Even width in body

Cons:
-Posty hind legs
-Lacks depth in heart girth
-Lacks bone
-Lacks brisket


Poor, yes  But I can't critique those pictures well


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

On a side note, anyone who wants to give meat goat critiquing a try, is welcome to!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Some thoughts on Excalibur:
A true South African looking buck! Great wrinkles and breed character in head and neck. Lovely curvature to head. Thick, well muscled shoulders. Great bone. Good body depth and length. Huge, thick, very well muscled rump and thigh. This is how I imagine a Boer buck is supposed to look 

And Mr. T:
Good body length, good width in chest floor, fairly good bone. Cute head  Looks to have fairly good spring of ribcage. Fairly good depth of body. Nicely muscled rump. Good pasterns. Nice rump, fairly level and pretty good length.
I would like to see more width, more brisket, a smoother topline, and a bit more muscling. But he looks to be still growing and is showing promise.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

WHR's "Baby Udders!", done in order listed.

First:
Lacks a nice arching curve. Teats spaced too far out. Nice medial, and well defined halves ( at that stage, anyway ) Nice sized teats. Fairly level udder floor. Lacks width between hocks.

Second:
Very poor arch. Narrow rear udder attachments. Narrow hocks. Halves could be better defined. Nice teat spacing...better then #1. Nice width in thurls.

Third:
Fairly nice arch...better then the above two. Well set, nicely spaced back legs. Well placed teats. It's too small to say anything else, but it looks promising


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

WHR's Boer/Saanen 6 yr old:

Lovely wide head
Strong muzzle
Good brisket
Well set shoulder assembly
Tight, well muscled shoulder
Well placed, sturdy front legs
Clean sharp withers
Excellent depth in heart girth
Smooth, flowing topline
Great depth in rear and middle barrel
Lots of body capacity
Good body length

Really, really like her front end assembly and barrel!

Weak pasterns...she's really down in the rear
Short rump
Steep rump
Short hindquarter
Hindquarter lacks the power her barrel and front end has


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Please, please can some else come on here too??  I'm feeling lonely over here! :tears: :lol:


----------



## Barnes19

Don't worry you're not talking to yourself LOL!!!

I've actually been visiting all the time its just every time I see fresh animals they're either hard to do or already done ... but I suppose there's nothing wrong with doing them again.

I suspect theres a few people doing similar!

I'll take a look through and see who looks good to do.


----------



## Barnes19

Ok make that "I'll take a look through and see who looks good to do" later tonight I've got to go someone burnt something in the kitchen!!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> Don't worry you're not talking to yourself LOL!!!
> 
> I've actually been visiting all the time its just every time I see fresh animals they're either hard to do or already done ... but I suppose there's nothing wrong with doing them again.


Ok, phew! It sounded like I was, lol! :lol:

I was leaving those last Boers, for that reason...they were hard to do  I would like it if someone else did goats I've done as well


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

Lol, I wasn't expecting full critiques of the udders - I was mostly pointing out the "hockiness" of each. The middle one definitely won't be a milker, she was a devil to shave - the top one will depend on whether her teats are large enough for me to want to bother. 

Re the 6 year old doe - I took that picture right after kidding, her pasterns have sprang back up since then. All of my Boers and crosses have poor pasterns, but worst when they're carrying baby weight and takes a week or two for them to go back to normal. The buck has very strong pasterns (and he's over 200 lb) so hoping those will improve on her doe kid I'm keeping.


----------



## pierceingstarr

Great news to hear about Excalibur and Mr.T. Mr. T is only 10 months old so I realize he isn't done growing and pretty soon he will be going threw that ugly stage as a yearling. I am dreading that. I remember Excalibur doing the same thing. Thank you.


----------



## Goatlover14

Would it be okay to post some Myotonics in here? I have a herd of them and am interested in learning about confirmation.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Sure! Haven't a hot clue as how to critique them, but I'd like to learn  Please post a link to their standard as well, so we all have something to go back to.


----------



## Goatlover14

Ok here is one of our does named Miss Muffet. The first picture was taken last summer, and second the summer before. I need to dig up the old SD card for more pictures of our does. I know it isn't the best set up but hope you can still tell, they were the only pictures I have on my computer right now.

And here's a link to a standard: http://www.faintinggoat.com/breed-standards.php

Thanks.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

She's a beauty!  Very pretty girl  Stacey, would you like to do her first?


----------



## Barnes19

Excalibur

Shows strong masculinity
Good breed character
Heavy bone and overall well muscled powerful build
Strong, powerful neck
Neck blends well into withers
Neck blends well into the shoulder assembly
Smooth shoulder assembly (although something bothers me ...)
Nice straight strong fore legs
Good width of chest
Good depth of heart girth
Excellent depth of barrel
Good body length
Good spring of rib
Love the body capacity
Good muscling on the hindsaddle
Good muscling on the rump
Rump is an OK length
Excellent muscling in the thigh
Rear legs show good bone


Lacks brisket ... Its hard to see past all those lovely wrinkles, but I don't see much actual bone there!
I would like to see a stronger straighter topline
His rump is a bit too steep
Back legs appear slightly posty ... its hard to see, I may be wrong
His pasterns appear weak to me. They are nice and short, but just have too much angle, they look weak.
He toes out a little in the rear


----------



## Barnes19

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> She's a beauty!  Very pretty girl  Stacey, would you like to do her first?


 I'd love to! She's pretty ...


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Barnes19 said:


> Excalibur
> 
> Shows strong masculinity
> Good breed character
> Heavy bone and overall well muscled powerful build
> Strong, powerful neck
> Neck blends well into withers
> Neck blends well into the shoulder assembly
> Smooth shoulder assembly (although something bothers me ...)
> Nice straight strong fore legs
> Good width of chest
> Good depth of heart girth
> Excellent depth of barrel
> Good body length
> Good spring of rib
> Love the body capacity
> Good muscling on the hindsaddle
> Good muscling on the rump
> Rump is an OK length
> Excellent muscling in the thigh
> Rear legs show good bone
> 
> Lacks brisket ... Its hard to see past all those lovely wrinkles, but I don't see much actual bone there!
> I would like to see a stronger straighter topline
> His rump is a bit too steep
> Back legs appear slightly posty ... its hard to see, I may be wrong
> His pasterns appear weak to me. They are nice and short, but just have too much angle, they look weak.
> He toes out a little in the rear


Good job, Stacey! :leap: That's a good one, especially considering the picture angle


----------



## Barnes19

Shows good breed character
Lovely femininity
I love her horns
Good muscle mass
Ears correct for breed type
Good length of neck
Neck blends well into shoulder assembly
Smooth shoulder assembly
Sharp withers
Good straight front legs
Back is broad and well muscled
Rump is a nice moderate length
Good depth of heart girth
Lovely depth of barrel
Nice body capacity
Nice length
Rear legs have good angle
Rump and thighs well muscled

Neck is a little too heavy
Weak chine ... although looks better in picture two
Lacks brisket
Rump is steep


----------



## Barnes19

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Good job, Stacey! :leap: That's a good one, especially considering the picture angle


Took a lot of time analyzing carefully! A short result out of all that but I was quite pleased to get so much off that angle. I'm going for Mr T as well but I gotta run right now ... someone's burning lunch again LOL


----------



## Goatlover14

Thanks she is one of our does with more white and thanks for taking the time to critique


----------



## Brink4

Here is one of our does. Not the best pics. She is a yearling in these pics. What do you think? She's walking pretty crazy in this pic because she hated the saw dust/sand mixture


----------



## Brink4

Here's another of above doe horrible pic but allows somewhat view from front. The pic by the quote at the bottom of my post is her when she was 6 mos.


----------



## pierceingstarr

Than you so much for your opinions. That picture of Excalibur was when he was Two years old. I need recent ones. His best pictures are in the summer time. That is when he also gets FAT!!! This helps me out so much. I have others but I am hovering over him instead of down at him. Excited to also hear about Mr. T. He is a Level Best grandson and would like to breed a few of my girls to get daughters and breed those daughters to Excalibur. Hoping to have a pretty good registered herd of Boers with this cross. I have a Doe that I will put up later that I would like to breed to Mr. T and get your opinions on her as well. Again Thank You


----------



## Barnes19

Brink4's doe

Good breed character
Overall build is heavy boned and well muscled, but still feminine
Neck is a good length
Neck blends nicely into withers
Pretty good brisket
Nice broad chest
Sharp wither
Topline is strong and straight (very pleased with that for a boer)
Back broad and well muscled
Rump is a good length
Rump very well muscled and powerful
Smooth shoulder assembly??
Front legs strong and straight
Back legs have a good angle
Good depth of heart girth
Chest floor flows nicely into heart girth
Well sprung ribs
Nice depth of barrel for her age ... I would hope to see lots more as she matures

Cons:
Pasterns need to be stronger
Rump is steep
Head could be more feminine
Could use more muscling in her front half to match that extra powerful hindquarter. Hopefully this will come with maturity.

There's something about her shoulder that bothers me ... I've been saying that a lot lately I know but this time I see what it is that bothers me ... it almost looks like its set a little too far forward in relation to her leg. It is possibly just how she is standing. 

I have a little trouble seeing shoulders. CPK, could you comment please? I may be imagining things ...


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Brink4's Doe:

My thoughts about her shoulders...they look set a little too far forward, and look like they lack front-to-back depth. Her front legs seem set at the back of her shoulder, and not in the middle, so that probably doesn't help any  

Pros:
-Nice long jaw
-Broad looking muzzle
-Neck blends smoothly into withers
-Neck blends nicely into brisket
-Clean withers
-Smooth topline
-VERY level topline...great one for a Boer 
-Tight elbows
-Smooth shoulders
-Good bone
-Nice straight front legs
-Pasterns look to be a good length
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth in middle barrel
-Lovely width in chest floor
-Good width in shoulders
-Good body capacity
-Fairly good spring of rib
-Wide, well muscled loin
-Lovely muscling on rump
-Excellent muscling on thigh
-Good rump length
-Very well muscled hindquarter
-Good width in hocks
-Well set back legs, not too posty, but not too angled. Very nice.
-Good leg length
-Lovely, smooth, well muscled flank
-Barrel is well supported in rear


Cons:
-Lacks a bit of breed curvature in the head
-Lacks a bit in neck length
-Neck could be better muscled at the base, leading into the neck
-Neck could blend better into shoulder
-Could use a little more muscle on shoulder
-Lacks brisket
-Steep rump
-Twist "looks short". Can't see it too well
-Would like to see a little more length (front-to-rear) in hindquarter


----------



## canyontrailgoats

You guys are amazing at critiques!!


----------



## Wild Hearts Ranch

I think the fact that she's walking makes the shoulder look odd. Probably still doesn't have much length, but she's pushing off with that leg which changes the angle.


----------



## Brink4

Thanks for the critiques! I was comparing what you had said to what market judges at the fair my daughter shows at have also said. There was some pretty close comparisons She has been told several times by judges that she is a flashy doe. 
The shoulder you are looking at did have an injury last year prior to the pictures after 2 of our other goats had ganged up on her and she had gotten that leg stuck in the fence and was hung up until we got to her, vet checked there was no break but she did favor that for quite awhile ...so great catch on the shoulder!!


----------



## JohnJ

Here is another one for you. He's a fullblood boer buck, he'll turn one in a few days. Thanks!.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

^^^ above buck:

Pros:
-Good wide forehead
-Nice breed definition in head
-Ok brisket
-Nice thick, well muscled neck
-Thick, broad well muscled shoulder
-Clean, well blended withers
-Good bone
-Strong front legs
-Good strong pasterns
-Good topline
-Nice long chine & loin
-Rump is at a good angle
-Rump length looks ok
-Well built, meaty hindquarter


Cons:
-Needs more brisket
-Really, really lacks depth of body
-Lacks body capacity
-Lacks spring of ribs


Shoulder and neck are really, really nice


----------



## janecb

75% boer doe, 3 months old. She's my baby :kidblack:

Sorry for her standing on the rail, I saw her standing somewhat nicely and took my chance...


----------



## alyssamilli87

94% boer doe, 3 months old.


----------



## alyssamilli87

2 months old in picture^


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

janecb said:


> 75% boer doe, 3 months old. She's my baby :kidblack:
> 
> Sorry for her standing on the rail, I saw her standing somewhat nicely and took my chance...


She's gorgeous!!!

Pros:
-Lovely head
-Good breed definition
-Nice thick neck
-Fairly good brisket
-Smooth shoulder assembly
-Shoulder is well muscled
-Good topline
-Long topline
-Good bone
-Excellent depth in heart girth
-Good body capacity
-Good body length
-Good rump length
-Good hindquarter assembly
-Good straight legs
-Good pasterns

Cons:
-Steep rump
-Could use more brisket
-Maybe could use a longer neck


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Alyssa's 2 month old doeling:

Pros:
-Nice neck
-Good length of body
-Fairly good topline
-Nice shoulder
-Good bone
-Good legs
-Nice width in hocks
-Nice hindquarter
-Good pasterns

Cons:
-Lacks powder
-Steep rump
-Small shoulder

Pretty good for two months though  Picture is hard to critique


----------



## cowgirlboergoats

This is Sparks Are Gonna Fly -100%


----------



## cowgirlboergoats

And This is Way Cool (Sorry for the not great pictures)


----------



## cowgirlboergoats

The picture is not working. The Goat is my profile picture.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

And Stacey, feel free to critique those doelings!  Even if I have done them


----------



## Barnes19

Hi I'm back!! I've been very busy for a couple of days and couldn't manage the time to get online.

Janecb's 3mo 75% boer doeling from post #124

Ahh you've cheated you've got her standing on a rail LOL
Lovely face
Broad forehead
Strong jaw
Good breed definition
Very nice markings
Good bone and muscle development for her age
Neck blends nicely into shoulder assembly
Smooth shoulder assembly
Strong, straight fore legs
Short, strong fore pasterns
Decent brisket
I think her withers are sharp and nicely defined, although half hidden behind her lovely ear
Beautiful long straight strong topline. Very nice. It may be partly hidden by the rail step, but I don't think she has the weak chine so many boers do.
Good depth of heart girth
Good depth of barrel
Nice body capacity for her age ... I expect great things later.
Decent length of body
Decent length of rump
I think her rear legs will have good angle when she steps down off that rail.
Short, strong rear pasterns

Con:
Rump is bit steep

I think you can probably tell ... I like her!!


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## Barnes19

Alyssa's doeling 
Good bone 
Long neck 
Neck blends nicely into withers 
Sharp wither 
Neck ties well into shoulder assembly 
Smooth shoulder assembly 
Strong forelegs 
Straight forelegs 
Strong front pasterns 
Short pasterns 
Decent depth of barrel 
Good length of body 
Nice strong topline 
Nice muscling on her rump and thigh 
Good width between the hocks 
Nice angle on the back legs (I think she's standing with them back a little though) 
Strong rear pasterns 

Could use more heart girth 
Could use more length of rump 
Rump is a bit steep 

She lacks power and muscling in her front end. From the rear, I would say she has nice muscling for her age. But her slender front would more suit a dairy goat. She is not balanced and proportional.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Nice Stacey! :applaud: You're getting good! :thumb:

Cowgirlboergoats's goat that's in her profile picture: (as best as I can see )

-Good body length
-Good topline
-Nice chest
-Good shoulder assembly
-Good bone
-Nice thigh muscling
-Smoothly blended
-Nice hindquarter
-Rump looks good

Overall looks real nice, but lacks body depth, brisket and body capacity.


Sparks are Gonna Fly (love the name  looks like it suits him!)

-Nice width in chest floor
-Good long body
-Level, long topline
-Nice long rump
-Fairly good rump angle
-Good muscling
-Smooth shoulder assembly
-Good hindquarter
-Nice curved head


-Lacks bone
-Lacks brisket
-Needs more body depth
-Needs more capacity


----------



## LuvMyNigies

"_*Yeah :grin: I couldn't think of any more! :lol: Sure! I like doing Kikos, especially since they are my main breed*_ :smile:"

I'm sorry I didn't post any pics yet. I have been _crazy_ busy lately. I don't know when I'll be able to post any more, but I will try to do it. Thanks again.


----------



## Waldo

There are a lot of gorgeous animals. I think I'll add my young buck to this tomorrow just to see what everyone thinks.  In the mean time, envious of everyone's lovely hoofed beasties.


----------



## Waldo

I tried my best to take pictures by myself! He's five weeks old.


----------



## Waldo

Darn cell


----------



## Scottyhorse

JohnJ said:


> Here is another one for you. He's a fullblood boer buck, he'll turn one in a few days. Thanks!.
> View attachment 90797
> View attachment 90798


This would be a perfect wether buck.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Waldo's buckling:

First off: he's adorable! What a cutie  He's young, but showing promise 

Really nice body length
Balanced body
Nice rump length
Good bone
Pretty good topline
Good shoulder assembly
Good rump assembly

Lacks width
Lacks depth

Overall, a nice boy, but needs more time to grow before giving a real critique


----------



## Waldo

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Waldo's buckling:
> 
> First off: he's adorable! What a cutie  He's young, but showing promise
> 
> Really nice body length
> Balanced body
> Nice rump length
> Good bone
> Pretty good topline
> Good shoulder assembly
> Good rump assembly
> 
> Lacks width
> Lacks depth
> 
> Overall, a nice boy, but needs more time to grow before giving a real critique


Thank you for your input. I agree with all of it and am happy I have been looking at him correctly!


----------



## 4hgirl

Ok what do you think of this guy? He's my market wether for next year, and while he's not the prettiest, he's been growing like a weed! His mom is full Boer, but we're not 100% sure who the dad is. He's living on my friend's property with her dairy goats, so his dad could be just about any breed, although we think he looks like he has some pygmy in him. He was born in December and I actually think this photo was taken in late January, so he was probably about six weeks old, not eight like I had previously thought.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

He's a stocky little fellow!

Pros:
-Deep jaw
-Nicely shaped head
-Clean throat latch
-Clean, smooth neck
-Neck blends smoothly into withers
-Nice thick shoulder
-Nicely placed front legs
-Good straight front legs
-Strong, upright pasterns on fore
-Strong, level topline
-Long topline
-Good depth in heart girth
-Good depth middle and rear barrel
-Good body capacity
-Good body length
-Good spring of ribs
-Nice length of chine and loin
-Good rump angle
-Nice, thick hindquarter
-Good hindquarter assembly
-Well placed back legs
-Good, upright back pasterns


Cons:
-Neck could blend better into shoulder
-Shoulder assembly a tad too far forward
-Shoulder could blend better into barrel
-Rump looks a bit short
-Lacks brisket
-Could have a tad more depth in rear barrel


Alrighty, Stacey! Gonna try him?


----------



## 4hgirl

Thanks for the critique! So it looks like a lot of his conformation issues are in his shoulder then? How do you think he will do as a market wether in 4-H?


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Yup...I think it's most his shoulder/neck area...forgot to add "could use a bit longer of a neck" con 
I have no idea what a market wether/ 4-H is supposed to look like or what they look for  Hopefully someone else will chip in to answer that one


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## cowgirlboergoats

4hgirl, I know around her the want the weather's to look like the one in the picture (on this post) They want them long and if you are showing at country fair, they may count you against it but not place you to low. Now at t national show that would be a diffrent story I believe. You want the to have a long loin and I believe bristet. (Sorrry out the misspelled words... I have a hard time spelling)
Here is some champions (weather and does) 
http://surechamp.com/champions/2014-goat-champions/ 
http://showrite.com/goat-champions/2014-goat-champions/


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## 4hgirl

He is definitely shorter than my last goat and the other market goats I've seen. I wasn't even planning on raising one this year because I don't have a lot of time to spend training one, but my leader insisted that I have this guy. He's not what I would have chosen for a market goat, but he's what I'm stuck with. Is there any chance he might get longer or taller as he gets older? His mom is rather tall for a Boer. There is a chance that his dad is at least part Nigerian or Pygmy, so that might be why he is so short. 

Do you have any advice on how to make him a better show animal? Should I feed something specific or try a certain exercise routine? I'm pretty open to suggestions, although I don't have a lot of time to spend with him. The judge last year said the number one thing he was looking for was muscle, and then balance and structural correctness.

This was my last goat. We had trouble getting him to put on weight, and this year's wether is at the other end of the spectrum, so I'm not quite sure how to deal with him.


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## amanda2017

4hgirl said:


> He is definitely shorter than my last goat and the other market goats I've seen. I wasn't even planning on raising one this year because I don't have a lot of time to spend training one, but my leader insisted that I have this guy. He's not what I would have chosen for a market goat, but he's what I'm stuck with. Is there any chance he might get longer or taller as he gets older? His mom is rather tall for a Boer. There is a chance that his dad is at least part Nigerian or Pygmy, so that might be why he is so short.
> 
> Do you have any advice on how to make him a better show animal? Should I feed something specific or try a certain exercise routine? I'm pretty open to suggestions, although I don't have a lot of time to spend with him. The judge last year said the number one thing he was looking for was muscle, and then balance and structural correctness.
> 
> This was my last goat. We had trouble getting him to put on weight, and this year's wether is at the other end of the spectrum, so I'm not quite sure how to deal with him.


We gave our doe champion drive my first year of showing, she was born late in the year, so she was only 4 months at my state show, she weighed in at 57 lbs. her twin sister that another girl had, was a lay small then he and weighed in at 40 lbs. 
so if you are looking for a supplement to gain weight and pack on muscle, I suggest champion drive.

As far as exercising, I suggest either you running him on an incline treadmill, or running up hills, or to build a chariot that keeps their front feet off the ground and back feet running. This helps build butt muscles.


----------



## 4hgirl

This is the best picture I have of my chunky little wether's mom. It doesn't really show you how tall she is. My leader has this new Nigerian buck who got out and bred just about everything last year, so it's quite likely that he's half Nigie, which would account for his build. As soon as he is weaned, I will raise his feeder to help him build muscles. I'm more curious about ways to make him appear longer. Is that even possible? Will his conformation change very much between now and our state fair in September?


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## 4hgirl

I have some updated pictures of my Boer wether. I took these yesterday, so he's about four months. We ended up selling him for meat because I have a much better quality market goat now. I just thought people might like to see how he's changed. They aren't very good pictures because I took them really quickly before he was sold, but he ended up getting a lot leggier. We think his dad may have actually been the Saanen buck instead of the Nigie.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Wow, he did grow! Still a nice looking boy though


----------



## Bree_6293

What about this girl? 2 year old


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Pros:
-Nice feminine head
-Good neck length
-Good brisket
-Nice big, well muscled shoulder
-Withers are higher then hips
-Good straight front legs
-Ok depth in barrel
-Really, really good body capacity
-Really good body depth in middle and rear barrel
-Nice spring to rib cage
-Nice long loin
-Nice long chine
-Good rump length
-Good rump angle
-Nice strong back legs
-Well balanced body
-Healthy tail

Cons:
-Necks blends oddly into withers
-Front legs are a tad too far in front of shoulder
-Poor chest floor - doesn't blend smoothly into barrel floor
-Withers don't blend smoothly with topline
-Lacks bone
-Would like to see maybe a bit more power in hindquarter

She's a really nice looking doe.


----------



## pierceingstarr

I have two gals that I would like for yall to look at. Both young and not yet bred. First up it Tootie(first four photos) And her sister Willow who was a bottle baby(last four photos). Thank you so much.


----------



## cowgirlboergoats

I am going to try and do this (correct me if I am wrong)
For tootie 
Pros 
-Pretty straight back
-has a wide chest
-looks to be thick
-seems to be long (back/loin area)
-seems to blend well together

Cons
-Has a short neck
-looks like a "buck head"
-Loses power in rear

This is what I see, I may be wrong. I really like her though.

Willow
Pros
- has long neck
-seems to blend in well
-has doe head

Cons
-front legs looks like they are behind her shoulders
-back dips
-Loses power with butt

That is what I see (I may be wrong)


----------



## pierceingstarr

How do I put power into the rear? IS that genetic, or something exercise will fix? Her back dips- could that be because she is going threw a growth spurt? I know in horses when there hind end is higher up, they are about to hit a growth spurt.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Tootie:

Pros:
-Nice width in between hocks
-Nice straight back legs
-Good rear pasterns
-Nicely rounded thigh
-Good rump length
-Nice long loin
-Nice long chine
-Good long topline
-Topline is level
-Well muscled, thick hindquarter
-Nice width in chest
-Nice thick neck
-Nice wide shoulders
-Pretty good bone
-Neck blends nicely into shoulder
-Smooth, well blended body
-Wide forehead
-Good body length
-Thick, well muscled girl

Cons:
-Could use more depth in heart girth, rear and middle barrel
-Needs a bit more body capacity
-Looks maybe a bit posty in the rear legs
-Neck could be a bit longer
-Could use a bit more power in hindquarter, but not too much, or she''ll be out of balance

A straight on side picture would be helpful.


Willow:

Pros:
-Nice long jaw
-Neck blends nicely into withers
-Tight elbows
-Nice long topline
-Fairly level topline - looks like she's growing
-Good rump length
-Good rump angle
-Nice body capacity
-Good depth in middle barrel
-Good depth in rear barrel
-Good bone
-Good width in chest
-Smooth, well blended body in last picture

Cons:
-Short neck
-Neck could blend more smoothly into shoulder
-Could use more brisket
-Could use a bit more power (aka meat ) in hindquarter


In the last picture she looks gorgeous 


Both need a tad more power in their hindquarters, but not a lot, or they will be out of balance with the rest of their body. Tootie is a really nice, meaty production doe  Willow has more of the slender "show" type look about her, especially in the last picture 

Increasing power in hindquarter...I don't know if that's genetics or not.  Her back dips a bit, nothing to worry about. All Boers do, generally. And it does get worse if they are in a growth spurt.


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Bumping if anyone wants to post here...and so we don't forget it


----------



## boer_goat_show

Here's one for yall to try! 
3 month old boer doe 








Here's another 
3 month old boer doe

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









Here's another 
2.5 month old boer (future) wether 








Another 
3 month old boer doe








Another 
3 month old boer buckling 








Another 
3 month old boer doe








Last one! 
2.5 month old boer doe








A bunch of kids of mine for yall to judge!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Doe in picture #4

She has a nicely rounded hindquarter, nice neck length, thick neck that is still feminine, tight elbows, nice body length, nice depth in barrel, good bone, pretty head. Picture is hard to critique. Rump looks too short, topline is uneven, front legs look too far forward.


----------



## slobberdoc

Anyone want to critique a 1.5 year old purebred Kiko buck? 

Obviously he still has some maturing to do, but if anyone could point out his good points and his weaknesses that would be great. He is 100% browse fed and a (possible) future sire of my commercial meat herd. He has already sired a few kids this year and they look incredible so far!

These are the best pictures I have of him, sorry!


----------



## slobberdoc

Oh and yes, he is peeing in the first picture, thus the funny stance. :laugh:


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

First off, he's a gorgeous buck! Made even better by the browse only 

Strong jaw
Long jaw
Broad muzzle
Thick neck
Nice withers
Well put together shoulder
Strong, well placed legs
Good strong pasterns
Good long barrel
Good depth in barrel
Good depth in heart girth
Tight elbows
Long topline
Strong topline
Level topline
I like his rump angle
Nice angle on rear legs
Good spring of ribs
Well built, sturdy, with good flesh covering
Well blended



-Appears to toe out in rear
-Rump could be longer
-Neck could be longer
-Lacks brisket
-Could be a bit wider in the chest


I like how well he's covered for being on a forage only diet! Looks very promising


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Soo, to bump it and update this, here's what goats need doing yet:

boer_goat_show's: (all in post 160)
-3 month old boer doeling (pic 1)
-2nd 3 month old Boer doeling (pic 2)
-2.5 month old Buck/Wether (pic 3)
-3 month old buckling (pic 5)
-3 month old Boer doeling (pic 6)
-2.5 month old boer doeling (pic 7)


----------



## bbpygmy

8 month old boer doe


----------



## Blackheadedboers

Here is my 5 month old junior buck, he is a commercial buck and a triplet. What do you think his pros and cons are?


----------



## Scottyhorse

bbpygmy said:


> View attachment 96469
> 
> 
> 8 month old boer doe


From this picture, here's what I see:

Pros: meaty build
Decent bone structure 
Nice shoulders 
Topline is level
Rump is level
Pasterns are good
Smooth blending 
Very deep and round

Cons:
Needs length in the loin
Back legs look posty 
Needs width front to back
Would like her neck longer
Would like to see a touch more length
Would like to see a bit more femininity (may be all that hair, she looks like she's got crazy thick hair)


----------



## amanda5858

Here's a doe I'm getting Tuesday! 
Boer doe born in March 2015 weighs 78 lbs! 
I thinks she's a nice one! But would love to get other's opinions!


----------



## amanda5858

Wether I am getting on Tuesday! 
Born Feb. 4 2015 and weighs 70 + lbs
I thinks he's also a good one, but would like to get others opinions!

ATTACH]98403[/ATTACH]


----------



## COgoatLover25

I think they're both nice!


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Dear me, this thread is really, really NOT up-to-date!!

Need doing AKA critiquing:

boer_goat_show's: (all on page 16, post 160)


 -3 month old boer doeling (pic 1)
 -2nd 3 month old Boer doeling (pic 2)
 -2.5 month old Buck/Wether (pic 3)
 -3 month old buckling (pic 5)
 -3 month old Boer doeling (pic 6)
 -2.5 month old boer doeling (pic 7)

BlackHeadedBoers 5 mo old Junior buck ( page 17, post 167)
Amanda5858 2 Boers - doe and wether - (page 17, posts 169 & 170)

If you would just like to try and are new to critiquing meat goats, feel free to try, please!


----------



## LuvMyNigies

Okay, first off-- I really don't know how to do this! :new here: -- at least to critiquing 
Buuut, I'm gonna try to work at building my skills. . .

-3 month old Boer doeling (pic 6)

Good neck length
Good femininity
Good body length?
Nice blending at neck and shoulder

Chest could be broader
Rump seems pretty short
Pasterns could be a bit stronger


----------



## colliershowgoat

Is this still open?


----------



## LuvMyNigies

I don't know!  I just figured I'd try my hand at critiquing since I kind of want to learn how! (partially because no one was around:underchair:  LOL! )


----------



## Cedar Point Kikos

Yes, it's still open  Feel free to do some!


----------



## colliershowgoat

I'll be sure to give some a try in a bit! But, I also have one I'd love to be critiqued  He is a boer/Spanish cross whether and is my current show prospect. I'm not entirely sure on his age(I need to go pull his records, but I'm fairly sure he was an October baby). I'd love to hear what you all thought of him! Thank you!

Sorry about the blurriness of some of the photos!


----------



## amanda5858

colliershowgoat said:


> I'll be sure to give some a try in a bit! But, I also have one I'd love to be critiqued  He is a boer/Spanish cross whether and is my current show prospect. I'm not entirely sure on his age(I need to go pull his records, but I'm fairly sure he was an October baby). I'd love to hear what you all thought of him! Thank you!
> 
> Sorry about the blurriness of some of the photos!
> View attachment 103975
> View attachment 103976
> View attachment 103977
> View attachment 103978
> View attachment 103979


Long bodied and deep twist. If like to see more overall muscle, bigger boned, cleaner top, higher tail set, wider chest and larger in the forearm


----------



## Jessica84

Oh good this is still going. I love reading everyone's input and learning. I simply would have said on this guy I like his butt


----------



## colliershowgoat

amanda5858 said:


> Long bodied and deep twist. If like to see more overall muscle, bigger boned, cleaner top, higher tail set, wider chest and larger in the forearm


Thanks! Just out of curiosity(and because I'd love to learn more), how would you adjust his top? I can understand the other stuff completely  We are working on muscle with daily workouts and he's sedentary improved since these photos. I also think once he is clipped he will be much better toned! He's got some long hair, haha!


----------



## nicolemackenzie

What's the "twist"?


----------



## colliershowgoat

nicolemackenzie said:


> What's the "twist"?


From what I've learned, I think it's basically the length from the anus to the hocks.


----------



## amanda5858

colliershowgoat said:


> Thanks! Just out of curiosity(and because I'd love to learn more), how would you adjust his top? I can understand the other stuff completely  We are working on muscle with daily workouts and he's sedentary improved since these photos. I also think once he is clipped he will be much better toned! He's got some long hair, haha!


Just try not to stretch him out too much, he is unfortunately short bodied so it's hard not to. 
It's just that when he's stretched out it looks like he has a weak neck connection and breaks behind the chine.


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## colliershowgoat

amanda5858 said:


> Just try not to stretch him out too much, he is unfortunately short bodied so it's hard not to.
> It's just that when he's stretched out it looks like he has a weak neck connection and breaks behind the chine.


Oh okay! We have been working on that as the judge at the pre show told us he did like to really stretch. But, it's been hard to have him not. As soon as we start pushing, he throws his back legs out. Do you have any tips on how to prevent that?


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## colliershowgoat

amanda5858 said:


> Just try not to stretch him out too much, he is unfortunately short bodied so it's hard not to.
> It's just that when he's stretched out it looks like he has a weak neck connection and breaks behind the chine.


Hey there! I was able to get some recent pictures today and I wanted to know if you thought he looked any better here? I'll try and get more pictures tomorrow once he is shaved also, but for now he is still furry!

Also, forgive his stretched neck! That was my fault. But, this was the best angle photo that I got. Normally, his neck is much more relaxed and his head is in a better position.


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## BrokenArrowRanch

Hello all. I brought home a couple registered boer doelings and would like everyone's opinion on them. first is the one with a colored butt. second is a rear view. third is other doeling.


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## amanda5858

BrokenArrowRanch said:


> Hello all. I brought home a couple registered boer doelings and would like everyone's opinion on them. first is the one with a colored butt. second is a rear view. third is other doeling.


I'm just going to do a quick judge on them, I will try to do a more elaborate one tomorrow.

I personally like the paint doe better then the traditional.

The paint doe has a good substance of bone, good overall muscling and a deep twist. I would like to see her a little cleaner over the top.

I would like to see the traditional with more bone and overall muscling. She's the one I would like to see have more time and feed


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## Lstein

Was able to try and snap a couple photos, they aren't the best, I'll try to get better when I can. This is Harriett, almost 12 months, 50% boer/50% savanna.


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## Lstein

The cons I see with Harriett are:
-Poor topline
-Would like to see her wider in the front and shoulder
-could be thicker in the front legs
-would like to see her front legs wider apart
-could have a more feminine look? idk lol, she just seems so "manly" to me

Would like to see what others think, and if they agree with my cons.


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## KNM-Livestock

Scottyhorse said:


> This would be a perfect wether buck.


Agree, I like him for a wether buck.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

So, Harriet:
She has a nice neck, nice shoulder assembly, good front legs - good bone, nice and straight - okay body length, decent rump length. Nice power in hindquarter. Good bone. Nice head. Smoothly blended.

Weak pasterns, very uneven topline, posty hind legs, steep rump, lacks depth & brisket, lacks width in chest, toes point out in front legs.


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## Lstein

So based off of your critique, I went and looked through my photos and wanted to see what you thought of Caroline. To help me compare a bit better. I do just have the one photo of her, and it is from when she was 6 mo. I'll get some better more updated ones, I just liked this one because she's actually standing nice!

Comparing her to Harriett I would say she also has weak pasterns, though a more even topline, non-posty hind legs?, steep rump, good length, cant really say much else from that photo......


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Caroline is definitely better then Harriet. Yes, you said it right.

She also has better depth, more brisket, more length, more mass, is thicker as well.


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## KOC_Grant

This is my first Buck (mr Tumnus), he is 3 1/2 months old
These are the best side pics I have of him and one from the front.
Purebred Kiko ( registration in process )

He is a little small (40.8 lb), but he is gaining weight really fast, I suspect he wasn't getting enough food before.

What do you all think? Decent start or did I get a lemon?


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## KOC_Grant

Another pic, day 1 you can see he was a lot slimmer


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Okay, so some thoughts:

He has weak front legs. His knees curve out and his pasterns curve in. 
He's short bodied (maybe just because he's hunched up), steep rump, narrow muzzle.

Good brisket, nice rump length. Nice shoulder and hindquarter. Pretty face. Calm looking, doesn't look like a flighty animal.

Not stunningly good, but okay. Looks better then day 1!
Because he's got a fluffy coat is is hunched, it's hard to give a decent critique 

Black doeling is pretty http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Tazzyboy5

I bought this 100% registered boer buck 4 weeks ago. He is 8 weeks old in this picture. What do you think of him? Also what is a good way to get muscle on them?


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## LuvMyNigies

Is this thread still in business? 

Would it be okay to post a Kiko or two, or are there too many goats ahead of me? :-D


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## Jessica84

Lol post it and if no one answers start a new topic, I'm still learning so I can't help ya but someone out there can


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## nicolemackenzie

Go for it!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Go for it!


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## LuvMyNigies

I will! 

Will these pictures work? If not, I might be able to get some more.
This is Dixie (Heart of Dixie) unregistered Kiko doe at a year and a half.


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## LuvMyNigies

Bump!

I know she's not too pretty, but she can't be THAT bad! ;-)


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Lol, I've been meaning to do her!


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Okay, so Dixie:

Since Kikos technically are not judged according to a standard, but on how well they produce, I'm going to use a combination of meat and milk standards 

Pros:
-Strong muzzle
-Good width between eyes
-Strong jaw
-Deep jaw
-Large, open nostrils
-Good bite
-Nice neck thickness - not overly slender like dairy goats but not overly thick for her body type
-Neck blends well with shoulder
-Neck blends nicely into withers
-Nice clean withers
-Excellent shoulder assembly
-Nice topline
-Long body
-Good body depth
-Strong topline
-Smoothly blended throughout
-Good rump length
-Good rump angle
-Good hindquarter assembly
-Well attached rear legs
-Nice spring to ribs
-Nice width in rump
-Nice width between hocks (generally people want more room for an udder, but for a Kiko that's fine)
-She's got awesome legs!
> Long boned
> Straight
> Nicely placed
> Square
> Good pasterns
> Nice hooves



Cons:
-Neck is short, isn't in balance with the rest of her
-Loose elbows
-Lacks brisket
-Front legs too far forward on shoulder
-Could have more depth in heart girth
-Chest floor isn't flat
-Appears to toe out the tiniest bit in both front and rear


She's a pretty girl in Kiko terms, and in excellent condition


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## LuvMyNigies

Thank You! That was a little over a year ago--my brother thinks several of the things you mentioned might be corrected now. (Is that possible? )

You did her full littermate brother Hidalgo on page 8. Do you see anything that carries through to both of them?

Her mom was a really good doe--herd queen and a really good, steady producer.
She died last year and now Dixie is herd queen (prepping her daughter to be next in line! )


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Like what? Sometimes things do correct overtime, depending on minerals and genetics 

Yes, both siblings lack brisket, have short necks and awesome legs. Her brother is shorter bodied, seems to have a dip in the chine and a steeper rump.


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch

Can I post a few of my Boers to be judged?


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## LuvMyNigies

He says her chest is now flat and wide, her heart girth has gotten thicker, and her neck has gotten longer and thicker. He also said that she doesn't toe out in the front, but she does in the back.

Also, what does it mean that "Front legs are too far forward on shoulder?"

Thank you for your critique! 

(Maybe I will post some more recent pics so you can see how she looks now )


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Sure, LibertyBoerRanch!

Fronts legs too far forward on shoulder - they're too close to the front of her, stemming from the fact she lacks brisket. They should be back more and look like they're right under her, not like her neck goes directly into the legs.  Hope that makes some sense!

And sure, that sounds good


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch

Boomer 6 month full blood old buck








Reign 7 month old % doe








Jayde year old full blood doe








Commercial year old doe Sawyer








2 month old % doe Abigail


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## Exponentialdolphin

Critique anyone? 11 month old Boer doe, as you can tell from the last picture, she will not brace  but she's set up ok so I hope you guys can use that


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Okay, so Boomer:

The pictures aren't the best for critiquing but here's some thoughts:

Good shoulder assembly
Nice spring to ribs
Good thick neck
Good width in chest
Thick, well muscled
Nice body length
Nice body depth
Good bone
Nicely blended overall

Rump is steep
Appears to toe out a bit in fore
Could use more power in hindquarter
Lacks brisket ? (hard to tell w/ pictures)


Looks nice for a 6 mo old buck 


Reign:
Pros:
-Nice thick neck
-Neck blends nicely into withers
-Good shoulder assembly
-Good brisket, could be a bit better
-Nice straight front legs
-Strong front legs
-Good pasterns
-Nice topline
-Nice spring to ribs
-Nice depth in barrel
-Smooth, well muscled
-Well blended overall
-Good hooves, nice heel to them
-Fairly good rump length
-Nice straight back legs


Cons:
-Neck a bit short
-Toes out a bit in fore
-Could use a bit more brisket
-Loose elbows
-Could have more length to body
-Steep rump



Jayde: (not the best pictures but here's some thoughts)
Pros:
-Lovely straight front legs - doesn't toe out in the least
-Nice width in chest
-Long rump
-Thick neck
-Well blended overall
-Straight legs
-Good bone
-Nice spring to ribs
-Nice depth in rear barrel


Cons:
-Lacks brisket
-Steep rump
-Could have more depth in heart girth
-Short neck



Sawyer:
Pros:
-Good neck length
-Nice high withers
-Good topline
-Good body length
-Nice square body
-Good depth, could be better but probably will with age
-Strong topline
-Strong chine
-Good shoulder assembly
-Lovely legs
-Straight legs
-Good bone
-Nice hindquarter assembly
-Nice square legs

Cons:
-Lacks brisket
-Front legs too far forward on shoulder
-Steep rump
-Rump could be a bit longer

She's a pretty girl! 


Abigail is a pretty girl, but a bit young for a critique. I like her length, legs and neck length though.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Hope that helps some, I'm a bit out of practice Save​


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## Cedar Point Kikos

11 month old Boer doe:

Pros:
-Appears to have nice neck length
-Nice smooth withers
-Neck blends nicely into withers
-Good shoulder assembly
-Legs placed nicely under shoulder
-Nice tight elbows
-Good straight legs
-Good bone
-Okay depth
-Nice body length
-Nice straight toes
-Smoothly blended
-Nice clean lines

Cons:
-She's pink! 
-Lacks breed character
-Lacks brisket
-Could use more depth in heart girth
-Steep rump
-Could use more power overall


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch

Cedar Point Kikos said:


> Hope that helps some, I'm a bit out of practice Save​


Thank you!!!! 
It helps a lot, as a newbie I always feel so super stressed picking new animals. So I totally love to hear people pick apart what I have now so I know what to look for and fix in my next purchase.


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## Goat_Scout

I know this is an old thread - just thought I'd resurrect it! 
If possible, I'd like someone to critique my Kiko doeling. She is a 15 week old (will be 4 months on the 13th) purebred registered Kiko, just started on a tiny bit of grain today. She weighs 50 pounds, is still nursing on mama but only at night - for the past 3 days I've been separating all kids during the day since they can't seem to respect the electric fence.   Their mamas get a break from them anyway, so I'm OK with that.

The most obvious thing I see with her conformation is that she has a very high, steep rump. She's also not as wide as I'd like (my new 5 week old Nubian buckling is wider compared to his size, LOL), but how would I know, I'm new to the meat goat world! Love to hear your input!









































































Also - what would her teat structure be considered as? Her dam is clean 1 x 1, and I'm pretty disappointed that she's not. 

The left teat has a slight little lump coming out, if you can see it in this picture. It doesn't have an orifice though (at least I don't think so). 








This one obviously has a little teat on the main teat, I need to check but I don't think it has an orifice.


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## Jessica84

Well Kikos are not very wide Goats. It’s kinda one thing that doesn’t appeal to me about the breed, they just remind me of small framed dairy. BUT even though they are not wide like mytonics or boers they actually produce more meat per live pound because they have such smaller bone and basically less wide because of it. So although me, a boer person looking at her I can say WOW she is so wide but I don’t think she is bad for her breed. I’m sure there are wider then her but I’ve also seen smaller too. She looks like a nice tall girl for her age, which I personally like. She seems to have good length too. Your right on her rump, her top is not overly flat and I don’t really like how her shoulders and neck come together but when you have her with her head held high she looks better. I don’t think she is a bad little doe though! I can’t say I’m great at picking them apart so take what I say with a grain of salt  
With her teats I’m not sure on the one but she basically has a functional teat with a teat attached to it. It’s not a text book fish teat but pretty close to it. When she kids make sure it doesn’t cause issues with kids nursing. I believe with boers it is considered a DQ, I personally don’t really like it and would move her along IF she was one of mine. But I also have my ideal herd and only keep REALLY good kids. I have had teats like this hand bred to a clean buck produced clean kids and no issue feeding kids so totally your call!


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## Goat_Scout

Thank you! I will let her grow out a little more and then decide whether or not to keep her. She has the body shape of her uncle (half brother to her dam, about 2 years old now I think), although he is now growing into his rear half more. Hopefully it's just mostly an awkward stage for her as well. 
We bought her and her dam almost 2 months ago and she's still pretty wild, yesterday was one of the first times I spent petting and walking her around.

This is her sire:


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## QNQ Boers

Could someone critique my 8 month polled buckling?


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## QNQ Boers

QNQ Boers said:


> Could someone critique my 8 month polled buckling?


The only thing I'd change about him is is width. But I love him he has the best disposition.


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## Jessica84

I’ve said this a million times but I’ll say it again I’m not good at picking them to death, I either like or don’t like but my attempt at it I agree with you that lack of width is really the only thing that jumps out at me. But he is 8 months old and earning his keep im assuming with the breeding harness  he looks like he is decent in length and I’m loving the wrinkles on his neck! Honestly I think that as a mature buck he’s going to be a looker


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## QNQ Boers

Jessica84 said:


> I've said this a million times but I'll say it again I'm not good at picking them to death, I either like or don't like but my attempt at it I agree with you that lack of width is really the only thing that jumps out at me. But he is 8 months old and earning his keep im assuming with the breeding harness  he looks like he is decent in length and I'm loving the wrinkles on his neck! Honestly I think that as a mature buck he's going to be a looker


Thanks, I think so to.


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## toth boer goats

Cons
Weak pasterns.
Some tailhead drop.

Pros
Good topline.
Nice roman head
Good muscling
A slight w in scrotum but still good.
Decent neck length.
Nice twist.
Nice length
Width doesn't look bad in the rear.

How is his front?


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## QNQ Boers

toth boer goats said:


> Cons
> Weak pasterns.
> Some tailhead drop.
> 
> Pros
> Good topline.
> Nice roman head
> Good muscling
> A slight w in scrotum but still good.
> Decent neck length.
> Nice twist.
> Nice length
> Width doesn't look bad in the rear.
> 
> How is his front?


Not a great picture. I'll get a better one tomorrow.


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## QNQ Boers

Here's some pictures from today.


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## toth boer goats

Narrow chested. 

I would put him with wider chested Does with strong pasterns, less tailhead drop.


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## QNQ Boers

toth boer goats said:


> Narrow chested.
> 
> I would put him with wider chested Does with strong pasterns, less tailhead drop.


Yup,he is in with my widest 3 does right now.


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## toth boer goats




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