# Livestock dog question?



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

We're hoping to get a livestock dog in the near future. We have Nigerian Dwarves, and hawks and possums keep prowling around the kids. Just today a huge black hawk swooped down over our kids' heads ... good thing their mommas noticed and started running! I ran out and yelled at it, and it flew away, but it keeps circling. I have nothing against hawks (beautiful creatures), but I don't want to lose a baby to one.

My question is ... we have one nextdoor neighbor, and he has two dogs that aren't super close, but are within sight. My mom is afraid that the livestock dog would bark at them non-stop. We would like a breed that would be safe around company, but just offer some extra eyes on those little ones without being a danger to them. Any ideas?


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

That's going to be really hard with dogs insight of the pen. I'm afraid the dog would go crazy watching and barking at them all the time. I'd probably just build a smaller pen with lots of shelters for the new babies and then let them out after a week or two when they're stronger and hope nothing happens...if that would be possible. I'm just not sure how well a LGD would do with dogs around constantly.


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

My great pyreenes doesn't bark at my dogs at the house or my neighbors dog during the day. Even if I have one out training on the agility course, however at night she does bark alot. So if your neighbors are close its something to keep in. Mind


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

@KW farms: Do you think it would help if we got a puppy and he was used to the dogs next door? The oldest kids are 6 weeks old, so they are out all day, but the hawk comes so expectantly, and they're still small enough to even if the hawk thinks he can handle them and ends up just scratching or dropping them, we'd be in trouble. Trying not to worry all the time, but we were just hoping that maybe a livestock dog could help us out next kidding season (=

@dobe627: Thanks for the heads up!


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## Lamancha Lady (Dec 13, 2011)

Can you put a regular dog in there when the kids are small and take it out later. Our Border Collie kills any possums, skunks (she never got sprayed) and any thing else that passes the fence in to the yard.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

We do not currently have a dog (our good old lab passed away in January) and I would be hesitant to put a dog in with them if it isn't specifically for livestock. Thank you for the answer, though! (=


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I've always heard that GPs are very noisy at night. So even if it wasn't barking at dogs, it would probably be barking at something else. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's actually mostly their bark that keeps predators away.


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

As previously mentioned yes mine barks most of the night and sleeps most of the day.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

LGD's bark some more then others. We have 2 Anatolian shepherds one barks a lot more then the other. 

You do not want to put a non LGD in with your goats!!! Not safe unless supervised and only with a extremly trusted dog. 

My LGD will bark if someone is walking a dog by the property but have been trained that the neighbors dogs are there and would only bark at them if they attempted to come close but the neighbors dogs are in a fenced yard and do not share fenceline with my pastures.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

@freedomstarfarm: Thank you (= Yes, I did hear not to put a non LGD in with the goats, as their instincts can kick in expectantly. It's also what we told the person who is buying two of our wethers as pets. They could be fine one day, and definitely not fine the next.

Looks like for now we're going to have to wait on a livestock dog. The barking wouldn't bother us, but it may bother the neighborhood nearby. Thank you so much for your advice, everyone!!


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Some people say that lamma or mini donkey are good guards also. They must be ones that are good with the goats so they are not a threat themself but maybe that would work if you have close neighbors.


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## merlinsmuse (Apr 11, 2010)

I know I'm coming in on this a little late, but what the heck, here's my two-cents worth. LGD's will bark as a warning to predators for sure. Their instinct is to do everything to deter them without actually getting into a fight. They will mark territory as a first resort, bark as a second, charge as a third resort and attack if all else fails. Having said that, they are highly intelligent animals given to figuring out situations (dangerous or not) very well on their own. Your original concern about barking overly-much at the neighbours dogs is valid, but I would say would not be a problem. LGD's are quick to determine danger and once they are used to the dogs being close and know they are not a danger, your dog will most likely ignore them. Our neighbour has dogs that, though they arent' within sight, he walks out in his fields. Our dogs have become so used to the sight, they don't even blink an eye when they see them. If you get your dog as a pup and he is used to seeing other dogs as part of his daily routine, there would be no need for him to bark at them. Having said that, each dog definitely has his or her own way of doing things, but i'd rather have my goats safe and a dog that barks too much, than not.
Hope this helps,
Cathy


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## lissablack (Nov 30, 2009)

I have two pyr pups, and they don't bark at the neighbor's dogs, although they do bark WITH them. They do bark at everything that is of interest to them, especially at night. It isn't a defect, it's a feature. One of the ways they keep predators away is with that barking. If you want a dog that doesn't bark you probably won't be happy with an LGD, it is part of their job to bark. But as everyone else says, I would not put another kind of dog in with my animals either. Mine are still too young to be left untended with the goats, at six months. I have to say I completely adore them. Their latest antic is that they seem to have decided that my great dane (house dog) is part of their herd to protect, as opposed to a dog.


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## merlinsmuse (Apr 11, 2010)

Yup. They do bark alot for sure. I'm fortunate enough to have no neighbours close by. Though there is an older couple across the hayfield and the woman did make a comment about how much she hears the dogs bark. I know how irritating a barking dog can be and I won't get rid of or discourage my dogs from barking because they are on duty doing a job, but I do lock them in the barn at night because the goats get locked up at night as well. That way, the majority of the barking is during the day and everyone is happy. I'm fortunate enough to have a small herd of goats and I can put them away at night or our poor neighbour would be listening to the dogs bark all night long. And our barn is huge, so the dogs have ton of room to move around at night, so all is good.

I left our second dog with the goats from when he was a pup, but with our older dog around, I didn't think there would be a problem. And I watched him very closely when I was at the barn, (which is a couple of times a day or more). I saw no red flags, aggression or anything that would concern me, so I figured he'd be fine. And he was. He's great with the goats. In fact, my one doe, Sweet Pea, will go and stand over top of Phantom when he's laying down. She'll put her legs on either side of him and go to sleep. Other times, she'll go up and hoof at him, then lower her head and push at him until he starts licking the top of her head. She has him very well trained.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Thank you for the help, everyone! It's not that we mind barking, we just don't want it to be constant. We would like a livestock dog that mainly sticks around the goats and will protect them if there is an active threat such as a hawk or raccoon (thinking babies, the full sized are not in as much danger in our area.) Have any of you had experience with English Sheepdogs?


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## merlinsmuse (Apr 11, 2010)

LGD's will stick with the goats and protect them against any threat, especially if you get them young and put them with the herd so they can bond. They don't bark constantly, but do bark if there is a scent or sound they are unfamiliar with. It's a lot of barking at any given time, but they will go for hours without barking. I understand that some dogs will tend to stick with the herd to protect, while others might tend to do a perimeter search more regularly which takes them away from the herd a bit more. I think it's a personality thing rather than a breed specific thing. If you get one as a puppy, you will be able to train them to stick to a routine that you want. Seriously, do some research and then it's a _'learn as you go'_ kind of thing. They are smart and will adapt well to your routine. Each dog is individual and will respond and act differently. I've been fortunate to have 2 amazing dogs, but each of them needs to be handled and trained differently. LOL, although training is not the right word, they really do what they want, when they want...sweet buggers that they are.


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## 5goatgirls (Jun 20, 2010)

Merlinsmuse is definitely right on all points! We have just recently introduced two Pyrs (6 and 8 months old) to our herd and they both have their distinctive ways in guarding and alerting and let's not even talk about that training. They have proven their worth in the past two weeks. We have coyotes here and though we have never seen them Fred and Ginger's alert barking to let the coyotes know not to come our way allowed us to actually hear the coyotes has they were passing through (and it was at a safe distance). Whatever method of protector you use, definitely research and figure out what will work for you. I only wish we had done this 10 years ago! And as for the barking, all of my neighbors dogs bark and my Pyrs usually stay quiet but they also have been around other dogs before we acquired them. Good luck with your search and again Merlinsmuse is correct about "learn as you go" because that is exactly what my husband and I are doing!


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## Goober (Aug 21, 2009)

Barking - ah, yes. My experience now with 2 female 1 1/2 year old (gotten at 8 weeks) Pyr/Anatolian crosses and a male 7 month old (gotten at 12 weeks) full Pyr. My girls bark mostly when there is a reason, probably the other times there is a reason as well. The male, well, as he is getting older, he is barking more and more. Often at nothing. I know, they hear better than me. But the other FIVE dogs usually see no reason to bark. So, IMO, nothing. Especially when he is laying down barking. I like the Anatolians more, they seem to bark less at nothing, while Pyrs are known for barking. And escaping, don't get me started on that one.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Mayhaps we will consider a llama in the future. I've heard they're wonderful.


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## Zarafia (Mar 25, 2012)

Woodhaven, let me put your fears to rest on one score; a hawk wont attack, injure or kill any of your goats, even the newborns.
I'm a falconer and I know many ornithologists and raptor biologists, as well as many fellow falconers.
Occasionally a golden eagle will prey on young sheep out west. Those attacks are always reported because reporting the attack will get the local DNR to designate the eagle as a "depradation eagle". A depradation eagle will be trapped, occasionally given to a falconer but often given to a Native American tribe that has requested it for religious purposes. There might also be some reimbursements offered to the farmer who lost their livestock (I can't remember).
If a hawk ever attacked a goat or other hoofstock I'd have read about it. Actually I did read about one account of something similar. A breeding program for pronghorns was having trouble with a family of seven harris hawks (the only social raptor in the US) was chasing newborn pronghorns in their enclosure. The entire family of hawks was trapped and relocated several hundred miles away, no pronghorn deaths .


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Oh strange ... thank you for the info! We were so afraid because this large black hawk would swoop LOW over the babies, whenever we went inside. This same hawk killed one of our chickens once, and the babies are right next to the chickens and are the same size.


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## Zarafia (Mar 25, 2012)

A baby goat is really a whole different ballgame from chickens. Hawks definitely kill chickens, though, interestingly, the wild hawks around here wont kill adult chickens, only little chicks to young adults, not full sized or flighted. 
It's my opinion that we've bred so much of the chicken's true, wild nature out of them by domesticating them that we've removed much of what would have kept them safe from predators, behavior wise.
A hawk just doesn't see a goat the same way he sees a chicken because of that, and because most hawks would much rather catch and eat birds than mammals.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Zarafia said:


> It's my opinion that we've bred so much of the chicken's true, wild nature out of them by domesticating them that we've removed much of what would have kept them safe from predators, behavior wise.


I agree! Our first batch of chickens were not as high producers, but were smart, and fun to be around. Our current batch produces a lot, but they are not smart at all, and burn out so quickly. It's very sad.


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## Zarafia (Mar 25, 2012)

Wanna hear something really tragic? 
Domestic turkeys could live ten years or more if it weren't for the fact that we love turkey drumsticks and breasts so much. We've bred them to the point that their legs are too weak to support the huge breasted domestic turkey and they loose the ability to walk (due to arthritis and other crippling condotions) when they are just a few years old.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Zarafia said:


> Wanna hear something really tragic?
> Domestic turkeys could live ten years or more if it weren't for the fact that we love turkey drumsticks and breasts so much. We've bred them to the point that their legs are too weak to support the huge breasted domestic turkey and they loose the ability to walk (due to arthritis and other crippling condotions) when they are just a few years old.


I've heard that. It makes me sick. Thus is why I want to raise my own meat. If I'm going to eat it, it'd better be coming from the right place. I don't want to support things like that.


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## Zarafia (Mar 25, 2012)

Thats a very good philosophy. You'd be surprised how many falconers feel the same way. Before I found TGS, when I was considering getting a couple goats, I asked about goats on the falconry forum. Many of my "old favorites" on there had kept goats in the past and some still do. Every single one of them had good things to say about goats, including that they were a tasty meat animal that could be raised and kept very happy until slaughter. I think it's a common attitude among the true "family tradition" hunters that hunting is a very moral way to obtain meat for your family because the game lives naturally and happily. It is never caged, resreicted, altered or forced to suffer in any way.


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## 2wFarm (Jul 16, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> We're hoping to get a livestock dog in the near future. ....
> My question is ... we have one nextdoor neighbor, and he has two dogs that aren't super close, but are within sight. My mom is afraid that the livestock dog would bark at them non-stop. We would like a breed that would be safe around company, but just offer some extra eyes on those little ones without being a danger to them. Any ideas?


We have the same situation with our Maremmas. They can bark a lot at the neighboring Bed & Breakfast cottages. Not so good when people go there for rest.  
It's not the dog's fault. They know those places are empty 70% of the year---and to them, no people should be there. So we make accomodations by keeping the quieter dogs out at night, and putting the noisy ones "up" until the B&B'ers are gone.

We are so in-tune to our pups we can tell at approx. 4wks who is going to be like mom and who is going to be like dad. Mom is vocal/active. Dad is quiet/stationary. _*ASK the breeder: Is this a quiet, steadfast pup?*_

We recommend to our puppy buyers to acclimate the Maremma pups to all that is acceptable. (Family, neighbors, friend's dogs etc). *ONLY *allow the pup to be accepting of the things that *you *want accepted.

And then, encourage the pups to be wary of everything else. 
Example: don't let LGDs approach strangers. Keep buyers at the gate and do not allow strangers into your pens. This helps the pup grow up watching what you allow and what you don't allow. They are smart enough to memorize this " Mom doesn't want anyone in the pens but family".

*Consider when you get an LGD, to ask for a started juvenile.* This way you can judge the quietness of the dog by that time. But get it young enough to still be moldable (like 4-5months) and teach it who IS acceptable (neighbors dogs) and who is NOT acceptable (starngers in your barns/pens or loose dogs). You will be the Mommy/Daddy of the pup. They are watching what you alert at...and they are watching what you allow. BE CONSISTENT.

I would not recommend a Maremma for a subdivision or neighborhood. They are still a working bred 2,000 yr old breed and too work-oriented for a small congested area.
I don't have experience with other LGD breeds, but I do think there are breeds who are more suited to small subdivision type farmettes.

For safety sake, we never allow any people to touch our LGD. This teaches my dogs that no outsider is allowed to lay hands on them. We like it that way. If I allowed every visitor to pet my dogs....well...what would happen if "visitors" showed up when I wasn't there?

My dogs do know who friends/family and acceptable cats/dogs are, and they memorize that. they can tell the difference between accepted cats and feral cats. It's a matter of raising them up with deliberate consistency.

We did at one time allow a local dog to come to our place to play with my son. Later, as the young LGD learned this was an acceptable dog...the Lab then killed our ducks while we were away from the house. The juvenile LGD did not stop him because the Lab was an "acceptable" local dog. SO, now, to avoid blurred boundaries, NO dogs are ever allowed here in the presence of our LGD.

I hope this was helpful 
*Click here for our website of our Maremma LGD.*


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