# Opinions Needed! Bottle vs. Doe



## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

We are reaching our last couple weeks and need to decide whether to pull the babies and bottle feed or to let them nurse on moms. Our end goal is to have as much milk for family use as possible. Any doelings will be kept to increase herd size and bucks sold or turned for freezer camp. There is always someone home to milk and bottle feed, so this isn't a deciding factor. We plan on getting a dansha milker. We have a separate area to keep babies. 

The deciding factors would be what gives the best baby growth?

Do you get more milk hand milking or machine milking? (These are FF and we are first timers, so a definite learning curve. Milked cows by machine for years, but not by hand.)

What way gives the most milk for family use?

If we bottle feed, we would still need to feed the milk to the babies. So do you get more milk milking them or letting babies nurse and milking the left over?

Also.....is it cost efficient and less time consuming using a lambar or single bottle feeding each baby if we go that direction? 

Any and all opinions would be helpful! Thanks, Stephanie


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## glndg (Feb 8, 2013)

Hi Stephanie,

My vet was out to disbud and commented on the weight of my dam-raised kids. When I specifically asked for clarification, she said that while they were NOT fat, they were heavier than bottle kids ever get. (And she sees lots of kids.)

OTOH, from what I have gathered, if you want a great-looking udder for show, you are safer raising the kids on bottles. You would probably get more milk for yourself this way as well.

Here's an article that addresses dam vs. bottle raising.
http://www.homegrownandhandmadethebook.com/2015/05/is-my-goat-kid-fat.html


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The best of both worlds would be to dam raise but after 2 weeks separate kids at night and milk in the morning.

Another option is to pull and bottle feed kids you don't want to keep and sell them as fast as possible as bottle kids.


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## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

glndg said:


> Hi Stephanie,
> 
> My vet was out to disbud and commented on the weight of my dam-raised kids. When I specifically asked for clarification, she said that while they were NOT fat, they were heavier than bottle kids ever get. (And she sees lots of kids.)
> 
> ...


Sounds like dam raised for you gave you the better babies. My goal is healthy kids and milk for family. Not interested in showing or raising babies for showing. Something I thought, of was whether the teats become bigger/better and a higher yielding udder for milking when nursed with kids or mostly milked by hand/machine?

Will dig into this article tonite! Thanks!


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## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> The best of both worlds would be to dam raise but after 2 weeks separate kids at night and milk in the morning.
> 
> Another option is to pull and bottle feed kids you don't want to keep and sell them as fast as possible as bottle kids.


Would milking morning and night right from the start be okay? Paying close attention to the babies and how they look to ensure they continue to get enough. This develops the routine right from the start...

This might be an option....will have to think on this.  I would get all does if it goes by my normal luck! :-D

Thanks!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

A lot of the time my bottle kids grow better than my dam raised kids, but it's sometimes the other way around, depending on the does production. 

If you want the kids to grow well, they need as much milk as they'll take, along with a good alfalfa and some grain. The calcium in the milk and the alfalfa is what's going to grow their skeletal frames. The protein in the hay and grain will put their muscle on, and the fat in the milk and grain will put their layer of fat on and also help with their development. 

I would say no to the cost effectiveness of using a lambar, if you have less than 5 kids on one. I use a 5 gallon lambar per 4-5 kids and it'll hold about 4 gallons, and I fill it twice a day, with zero to maybe half a quart of milk left over. 

With my bottle kids and lambar kids, they grow just as good, sometimes better than the dam raised kids. The key is they need as much milk as they will drink to grow the best. Even if you have to sacrifice not having milk for you, they need as much as they can get if you want to grow them to full potential.

If you want the does to milk more and have bigger teats, you'll need to pull the kids and milk 2x a day. It will stretch the udder and the teats, and there will be a consistent supply and demand to go to her "milk memory". So they'll milk about the same or higher with their next freshenings.


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## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

Lacie,

Would you say that the key to good early growth on bottle babies is using the dams milk and as much as they can eat? My thoughts are the only way to do this with out 24hr monitoring is a lambar, even for just a few kids as they are then eating what they need without ever waiting for a scheduled feeding. We would need to make sure of no waste by adjusting what was put in the bucket as they grew, monitoring and recording daily consumption.

This would work along side of 2x daily milkings. Any thoughts on milker vs hand? Especially for a first timer. Guess I am worried mostly about the hubby having enough patience to strip well enough in the mornings since 5 days of the week it would be his morning responsibility. 

Thanks for you information!


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I've seen first hand that kids grow better when dam raised. However, we bottle raised ours because we have no way to separate kids to wean them. And we do show. It sounds like you would do well to dam raise the first year and evaluate after that. And you always should have bottles and nipples handy at kidding time because "stuff happens" and sometimes you have to bottle feed one or more kids.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

FloatnRockRanch said:


> Would milking morning and night right from the start be okay? Paying close attention to the babies and how they look to ensure they continue to get enough. This develops the routine right from the start...
> 
> This might be an option....will have to think on this.  I would get all does if it goes by my normal luck! :-D
> 
> Thanks!


If you want to keep the kids on the dam, you can only milk once a day so as not to starve the kids. I separate the kids at night 12 hrs before morning milking, and they keep their dams empty during the day. If you milked in the evening after a day of kids nursing, the kids won't leave hardly any milk for you! :-D

I prefer to dam raise my kids b/c they grow faster and I have way less problems with scours, cocci, worms, etc.

Dam raising also gives you more flexibility; if you need to be away for a night (or more) you can leave the kids with their dams all night to keep the does milked out. That way your "goat sitter" just has to feed and water and doesn't need milking experience; and your does don't dry off.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

I also prefer to hand milk.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Yep, whether it's their dams milk, milk from another doe, or even cow milk. As much as they can possibly swill, starting from birth, that's key in their growth.
Lambar would probably work out well for you if you adjusted to what they need. 
I do not have experience with machine milking, so sorry, no help there. Just be careful with the suction, because I bought a doe back after being machine milked, and she had blown teats from it. 

Here is an 8 week old lambar kid, next to a full grown 2yr old doe. And here's a 3 month old dam raised doe kid, who was never separated, had all she could nurse and I just took the excess if there was any


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Also, I actually have less cocci and worm problems with bottle kids, than I do with dam raised kids. Also with dam raising, check religiously for mastitis, because they can get it while nursing, and you can mess up your doe kids if they nurse from a mastitis doe. Dam raised kids usually always have a bigger twin, with bottle and lambar raising, they're all on an equal playing field, equal growth rates, and they're less aggressive with each other as adults.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I will never leave buck kids on a dairy doe again. Last year my yearling doe's twin bucklings bit through her fine dairy skin and destroyed her udder to the point she had to be culled. 

In fact, the 4 doelings I'm raising now will never raise a kid at all. I dam raised with my last group of does and it causes more problems than it solves...


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

My bottle kids grow at the same rate as my dam raised kids, you can't tell which is which.

A lambar is easier to use than bottle feeding each kid, one at a time. However, you do have to teach the young kids how to use it.

The dam raised kids and flexibility is a valid point, it does come in handy to be able to leave the kids with mom if I have to be away.

Have you had the does tested for CAE? If they are CAE+, you really need to pull the kids at birth and bottle feed CAE- milk/colostrum.

My milkers produce way more milk than the kids use, so I can leave the kids on their CAE- dams (CAE+ get pulled) and still milk the does twice a day. 

If you bottle feed the kids, you can sell them very young instead of keeping them for 3 months or so. 

Hand milking is easier on the animal unless you are rough. I prefer hand milking. I can feel if anything is wrong in the udder/teats. You have to strip the doe out at the end anyway, which means hand milking the last little bit. Plus, with a machine you have all that washing up to do and it can be very easy to miss places where bacteria grow. 

What you may have to do it try different ways and pick what would work best for you. What works great for me (and my really odd schedule) would probably not work for someone else.


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## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

LibertyHomesteadFarm said:


> I also prefer to hand milk.


Why? What makes you prefer it? This is important to me and a big money item to buy. Is it easier to learn or is it personal preference. Do you get more or less milk?

My thoughts were that it would be easier to use a milker on FF that are going to throw fits. Less milk loss. Easier for the hubby to manage. I know cleaning makes it take longer.....:think:


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## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Here is an 8 week old lambar kid, next to a full grown 2yr old doe. And here's a 3 month old dam raised doe kid, who was never separated, had all she could nurse and I just took the excess if there was any


Yep pretty darn near the same size. Nice.

It seems dam raised or bottle fed is pretty much good or bad based on personal preference and individual farm experience with no definite difference for baby growth. Everyone is pretty mixed on that topic.

It seems to me that if you pull the kids only at night, you create havoc and stress daily for both the animals and yourself. Leaving babies and does open to greater chance of health issues and a major headache for me every night! I would think that a baby should have consistent supply all 24hrs of the day not just 12hrs during the daytime. A lambar provides the milk 24 hours supply a consistent milk supply and less stress coming and going with the dam, more handling by humans and my crazy kids, should equal some happy healthy kids! :-D


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## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> Also, I actually have less cocci and worm problems with bottle kids, than I do with dam raised kids. Also with dam raising, check religiously for mastitis, because they can get it while nursing, and you can mess up your doe kids if they nurse from a mastitis doe. Dam raised kids usually always have a bigger twin, with bottle and lambar raising, they're all on an equal playing field, equal growth rates, and they're less aggressive with each other as adults.


Lacie,

Can you explain this...how do you mess up your doe kids if they nurse from a mastitis positive doe?

Mastitis worries me....the one thing I haven't prepped for yet. Thinking I should probably get these supplies for the medicine cabinet. Does a box of Today, cannulas, tester paddle, CMT sound good or is there something else I should get?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Doe kids have a high chance of freshening with mastitis if they drink mastitic milk. 

Sounds like a good mastitis kit, you don't need the cannulas though, the ToDay and ToMorrow treatments have them on the syringe already.


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## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

goathiker said:


> I will never leave buck kids on a dairy doe again. Last year my yearling doe's twin bucklings bit through her fine dairy skin and destroyed her udder to the point she had to be culled.
> 
> In fact, the 4 doelings I'm raising now will never raise a kid at all. I dam raised with my last group of does and it causes more problems than it solves...


Jill,

Do you use a lambar or bottle for each baby? My hubby is concerned that the milk will sour sitting in a lambar bucket in the heat and make the babies sick. Is this true?

Darn bucks sound brutal! My beginner does have much to be desired in there udders, however they are still an initial investment and I would hate to have to cull my first goat loveys! I will definitely find it hard to take the babies away. Poor mommas!


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## FloatnRockRanch (Feb 7, 2015)

lottsagoats1 said:


> Hand milking is easier on the animal unless you are rough. I prefer hand milking. I can feel if anything is wrong in the udder/teats. You have to strip the doe out at the end anyway, which means hand milking the last little bit. Plus, with a machine you have all that washing up to do and it can be very easy to miss places where bacteria grow.
> 
> What you may have to do it try different ways and pick what would work best for you. What works great for me (and my really odd schedule) would probably not work for someone else.


Some very good points! I hadn't thought about the need to strip out at the end even if using the machine. Cleaning for the hubby is a big one! He is terrible about the extra effort with cleaning, it is usually where I do double duty. This could be a problem and cause some issues with mastitis or even staph. Hubby also has issues with arthritis in his hands. Several people have this problem....:anyone: maybe have input on hand milking with hurting hands?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

They will drink it before it sours, and usually what happens here is it will start turning into yogurt if left out in the heat :lol:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Milking has to be a set routine and everyone in the family must follow that routine without fail.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Besides you can float ice packs in it, make an ice chest lamb bar, many different options. 

I don't plan to raise anymore kids at this point. They will be sold soaking wet. I spent many years go down wrong paths and letting myself subscribe human emotion to my livestock. At this point it's either time to buck up and do what I'm supposed to be doing, or quit trying. 

If I did need to raise a replacement doeling, it would be done on a lamb bar.


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## melbah1 (Jun 28, 2013)

For me, it's not just hand vs. Machine milking, it's what kind of machine. Hand milking is better than vacuum pump milking but a milker with a pulsator is pretty good. With the vacuum pump milker sometimes the doe won't let down her milk as well and it can be hard on the udders. With or without a machine you have to hand milk the first couple squirts to clean and strip the teats at the end.

arthritis would make it difficult to milk. Do you know anyone who has a doe in milk that he could try to see how his hands do? I had a run in with a saw a few years back that did extensive damage to my left hand, severing my index finger almost completely. I am currently milking about 4 gallons a day and my hand is ok but after a few months I start dreaming of a pulsating milker!

I have a vacuum milker (quik Milke) that we use when I'm not available to milk. I know alot of people swear by them but I just can't bring myself to use it regularly. The cheapest pulse milker I know of is 400 to 600 dollars.

I have had 11 kiddings here, so nothing like many on this forum. I have always kept the kids on the does for the first two weeks , milking twice a day any excess milk (my does will produce much more than one week old kids will eat) then at about two weeks we seperate the kids at night. They cry the first couple nights for a little bit, but they get used to the routine and they can see their moms. Once they are old enough to wean and we are done using them to keep the does in milk while we are on vacation, we sell them. My experience is that it gets a higher mikm production going because the kids are drinking so much during the day.


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

FloatnRockRanch said:


> Why? What makes you prefer it? This is important to me and a big money item to buy. Is it easier to learn or is it personal preference. Do you get more or less milk?
> 
> My thoughts were that it would be easier to use a milker on FF that are going to throw fits. Less milk loss. Easier for the hubby to manage. I know cleaning makes it take longer.....:think:





FloatnRockRanch said:


> Jill,
> 
> Do you use a lambar or bottle for each baby? My hubby is concerned that the milk will sour sitting in a lambar bucket in the heat and make the babies sick. Is this true?
> 
> Darn bucks sound brutal! My beginner does have much to be desired in there udders, however they are still an initial investment and I would hate to have to cull my first goat loveys! I will definitely find it hard to take the babies away. Poor mommas!


I prefer to hand milk because I can monitor the amount of milk left in the udder easier, and it is a bonding time with the goat. In my experience, machines are worse for FFs, it makes them freak out. If you handle doe kids a lot as early as possible, they behave VERY well. 
If I did use a machine I would use a pulse machine, NEVER a simple vaccum/hand machine because they ruin does udders. I have seen does with horribly blown teats from hand machines.

I've never had or heard of any problem with buck kids hurting their mamas; on the contrary, my doe who consistently has bucks has the most beautiful, milkable udder ever!


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## LibertyHomesteadFarm (Feb 1, 2014)

The only problem I have with a pulse machine is the expense.


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