# Considering dog breeding



## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm considering dog breeding, but I want to know a little info first.
I learned about a breed called Patterdales from a friend who has them as pets. As I researched the breed more, I just fell in love. I hope to get some for pets as well as hunting, here's the breed site: http://www.ptca.00go.com/
Anyway, I'll have to save up quite a bit of money but I wanted to know if there was any good books/sites on dog breeding info? How often does a dog come in heat? At what age do you breed them? What's the gestation? Any other dog breeding experiences or things I should know?
This is something I am seriously considering investing my money in. Mom thought I should invest it in something I would love rather than the stock market :wink: It's gonna take me a while to save up though, but that's ok.
Thanks for any info you have to share on breeding dogs


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I am also considering investing in some more poodles as pets and maybe breeding them once a year. The nice thing about poodles (toy poodles) is that they aren't in pounds and rescues - I have TRIED to find a Toy poodle to adopt and there aren't ANY! So they won't end up in pounds......


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I was thinking about getting 2 females and 1 male and breeding, I can easily get my money back, and not to mention the enjoyment of hunting with them! My mom and I always wanted little do-nothin(that's what we call them) dogs, I think these would be a great breed for me.
Poodles are SOOOOOOOO cute, but my mom doesn't like them :roll:


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Toy Poodles are mouser/rat dogs, and boy would Tyson be good at it! How much do Patterdales sell for?


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

$500-600 per pup. This is still something I'm considering(breeding that is), I will more than likely get one of these dogs, but it's not like it's going to happen tommorrow or next month. Maybe I could just get one female and when she's old enough to breed I can take her to a stud


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I am thinking of buying two female poodles (which are around $2000 a piece!) And when they are close to breeding age I'll buy a male. Poodle puppies sell for between 900-2000 dollars 

Of course to get 900-2000 dollars a puppy I'll have to take really good pictures (which I love to do ) and they will be teacup poodles.


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

Do you want them to be registered? If you don't care if they are as long as they are purebred then check shelters and check into adopting. :idea:


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

I would recomend www.petfinder.com if you are going to search sheltersThey are also much cheaper.


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## PixieDustHollow (Oct 5, 2007)

Alright, not to open a can of worms or make people mad. Sorry if I offend anyone.

IMHO



goathappy said:


> I was thinking about getting 2 females and 1 male and breeding, I can easily get my money back[...]


If that is how you feel, do not breed dogs.

IMHO- Dogs should only be breed when they help to better the breed. That means working and/or conformation titles, outstanding health tests, and 
wonderful personalities.
If my goats turn out better than their parents over all, I castrate them(males) and sell them for meat or pasture ornaments. Most people would be appalled to eat dogs, and even though people say they will neuter them, they do't always.
If you want to breed them, I would strongly suggest reading up on common health issues in Patterdales. Most "breeders" say there aren't any, but patellas(knees), eyes, and hearts are always good things to test.
Also, look around you community for puppy homes. If your area is mainly agricultural/hunting, you should be okay home-wise. But are you willing to keep a whole litter if no homes show up? I suggest getting litter reservations before you breed anything, dogs, cats, goats, cows, etc.
Another thing to look at is the cost of raising a litter HEALTHFULLY. A lot of people breed two dogs together to make money. If you make money breeding dogs, you aren't doing something right(see first and second link).

This site is about Rotties, but makes very good cost list.
http://www.rottie-l.org/b4breeding.html
http://www.itb.it/canaan/icdca/Breeders/facts.htm

This site has a lot of information about being a responsible breeder.
http://www.wonderpuppy.net/breeding.htm

As does this one(off of above site)
http://www.wonderpuppy.net/breeding.htm#breeding

Just google 'breeding dogs' and stuff like that, you'll get loads of info.

Once again, sorry if I made/make anyone mad.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Thank you for giving me those links and realize that I am not a person that gets easily offended, I am always open to everybody's opinions/views.
This is something that I am looking into to, there is no guarantee that I will do this, and it's not like it's going to happen tommorrow, or next week, or next month. I am not a person that buys on impulse, I always research what I am thinking(remember that's a key word here) about doing before I ever make a decision. I am going to buy one of these dogs, but the breeding part is still in question here and will be for a while. If I did get a dog, I would get one from a reputable breeder, never a shelter. We adopted 2 dogs and one ended up having mange and had to be put down and the other was so high strung, aggressive and really nervous. She got hit by a truck 
Also:


> I suggest getting litter reservations before you breed anything, dogs, cats, goats, cows, etc.


I don't agree with you here as far as goats and cows go, no offense. They fall into a completely different category. Goats and cows(both dairy and meat) are most commonly raised to of course make money on a commercial scale. You breed dairy animals to refreshen them so they come into new milk, and you breed meat animals of course, to make meat for market. We breed our goats every year for more meat kids and to bring the dairy does into new milk. We post extra doelings for sale, if we sell them we sell them, if we don't we don't. We haven't had any troubles selling them so far, but who said you couldn't eat a doe? JMO.


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## PixieDustHollow (Oct 5, 2007)

I've eaten does, I personally think they taste better.

I prefer to have a waiting list so that I know I'm not adding to the homeless issue. Around here, goats are a surplus. But not for long- we have a booming Hispanic population. Although, the shelter won't adopt out goats to Hispanics...

But yeah, dog breeding is not an impulse thing. SO many people do it thinking they will make money, and if they do, it's because they aren't taking proper care/precautions.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

We've never had to eat a doe, they always get sold or retained.
Chelsey, how big of a difference in size is there between a teacup and a toy poodle? Just wondering, I've never seen one up close.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

A Teacup poodle is from 2 - 4 1/2 pounds, a Tiny Toy (that is what people call them) is 4- 6 pounds (that is what Tyson was sopposed to be, he is now 7 + pounds :roll: ) and a Toy is from 6-10 pounds.


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

I've personally never had a problem with the shelters around here.


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## FarmGirl18 (Oct 5, 2007)

A really good resource for dog breeding is a book called the ABC's of dog breeding by Claudia Orlandi. It covers alot of genetics, common misconceptions, tons of good information. I got it because I hope to eventually breed Labrador retreivers. It is in a really easy to understand format.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok, a dog comes into heat for the first time when she is 6 months old and then after that once ever 6 months. I would strongly advise against breeding them the first heat cycle. The second or third (or some same even further down the line) should be fine as long as they are in good health and have grown properly and at the right growth rate. You don't want to breed them before they are physically ready. They stay in heat for 21 days (3 weeks). Most books and sites will tell you that they will only breed the middle week of their heat cycle, but it will also tells you that this can very drastically from dog to dog. When your female is in heat you better have her where no other dogs can get in and she can't get out! Other dogs will try to dig in and she will try to dig out. They can also breed through fences so having her in a chainlink fence will not work. You also want to be sure that your male is safe because he will likely try to fight off any stray males that come into your yard while the females are in heat. I breed for Fall or Spring litters because in the summer you have to deal with the terrible heat (atleast here in the south :roll: ), fleas, ticks, flies, nats, and so forth which all make it a little harder to be sure that everyone stays healthy. Plus if it is hot and you have the dogs and all outside, then the mother will be hesitant about staying in the hot dog house with the pups. The average gestation period is about 64 days, but every dog is different. They have canine whelping calculators on the net where you just put in the date(s) the female was bred and it will tell you the estimated due date(s). I always start my female on Puppy food a couple of weeks before she is due to whelp to help with milk production. Also, something you should be aware of is that every dog, no matter whether you raise it from a pup or not, reacts differently while in labor. She may not mind you being there with her but she could also become very agitated and get snappy. Be VERY cautious when they are having their first litters until you know how they will react. Also, try not to startle her when she is whelping because they can postpone labor for an hour or more if they are stressed or scared. Once she starts having the puppies her natural insticts should kick in and she should do everything needed. She will clean the puppies and she will bite the umbilical cord in two (there will be blood when she does that so don't freak :wink: ). She will eat the afterbirth and all, and I advise letting her (some people will take it away from them) it is high in proteins that she needs. The puppies won't open their eyes and ears for about 3 weeks. I usually do not handle them (except to change the dog house bedding) until their eyes are open and they are crawling around. As long as they are eating good they can be weaned as early as 6 weeks, but I myself wait until they are 8 weeks. If you are planning on raising full blooded pups then at 6 weeks old they need to be taken for their first set of shots, then at about 7.5 weeks old I would start advertising them stating that they have had their first set of shots and leave it to the buyer to get their next set at 8weeks, 10 weeks, and 12 weeks old. Of course, if you haven't sold them by the time they are 8 weeks or so then you will need to take them in for their second set of shots as well. I don't think they can be wormed until they are 8 weeks old, so that will also have to be done if they are not sold by then. I think that pretty well covers everything I can think of. Sorry it got so lengthy :roll: If you can think of any questions or anything I left out please feel free to ask. Hope this helps :wink:


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Thanks for the info Brandi  
If I get a female and she is in heat, will my neutered males fight then? or do only un-neutered males fight? I'm just wondering because if the neutered males fight then I would have to get her spayed.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

It really depends on the males I think. Was your male neutered as soon as he was old enough or was it later on?


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

We have 2, they were both done as soon as they were old enough(I dont remember how old Sarge was, but we did Bandit at 8 months I think) I know you can do earlier but I've read that for the dog's health it is better to wait until they are older.
The only reason I'm asking is because Bandit and Sarge have gotten in fights before(Bandit bit me when I tried to break it up once, still have a scar) They only fight over food, so we don't feed them in the presence of each other anymore but I don't know how they would react to a dog in heat.


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## redneck_acres (Oct 18, 2007)

Okay, so we have 3 mini dashund females-Mother, Daughter, Granddaughter. The youngest is my dog. But, They are mainly only bred once a year. Yes, it is nice selling pups to make a few extra bucks-but the health of the our dogs comes first. For example I know of one person who raises LGD's. Personally I believe she has her female dog bred to often-which often results in smaller litters for her. So, the only thing I have to say is pleassssssssseee give your dogs a good break inbetween litters.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

redneck_acres is right. I always give mine atleast one heat cycle in between breedings. This time she has gotten 2 (male didn't breed her)and we haven't decided if we are going to breed her again or not. They would probably be ok... but I can't say for sure. You might want to try and keep them separate from the intact male you get, and I would definitely watch them closely the first time your female comes into heat.


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## Dover Farms (Oct 16, 2007)

We used to raise German Shepherds and never did any testing or showing with them. A lot of the pups that we sold went for pets, but a few did go for breeding. Raising puppies is a lot of work. And a lot of the time, you only break out even. Never get into to dogs thinking you are going to make a profit. The one thing we hated about raising dogs is....some of the people that try to buy your dogs!! They want the pup to have everything, like tests and such, for cheap! They want everything for nothing. :x Ooo...really disliked the people that would call and try to get you to lower your price because the pups were too "old"(only 3 months!)! That's when you can really start training them. :roll: That stuff got old to us and we got into the goats and found out how much nicer the show people were and we were hooked!  

Sarah, I am not trying to burst your bubble or anything, but expect some not very nice people when raising dogs. :roll: Trust me. Been there, done that!  :wink:


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I have friends who raise German Shepherds as attack/guard dogs and competitive/show dogs. And they raise them RIGHT and make a profit. I also have friends who raise Cavelier (sp) King Charles Spaniels and they make a profit also. It is all in HOW you raise them, you have to do something different (such as raising them naturally) or have a REALLY good website..... and THE biggest thing is good pictures! Also with the small breeds most of the puppies are shipped.


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## PTCA (Oct 20, 2007)

After watching for past few days, I have to say that you have NO business breeding any dog.......much less a Patterdale Terrier, which is still considered a rare breed. They are a high energy dog with a very strong prey drive.

You have done no research.........a blog group is not the place.

Are you willing to keep the whole litter because you can't sell or even give them away?? I doubt it.

Are you willing to give a money back guarantee if it dosen't work out? No? Hmm...one more for the animal shelter. Are you willing to spend $500-$1000 on a c-section if something goes wrong???? Another $200-$300 on tails, dewclaws, worming and vaccinations???

GETTING YOUR MONEY BACK AND MAKING MONEY smacks of a Puppy Mill...........
You'll make money investing in the stock market not breeding dogs.

Please, stay away from dog breeding and especially our Patterdales.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

PTCA - You don't know she hasn't done the research. I think the way you said it was quite harsh and un-needed.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Umm, and I think you haven't read my previous posts good enough. 
In my first post, yes, I do sound a little blonde and arrogant saying that I could make money breeding these dogs.
As I researched dog breeding in general(not necessarily breeding Patterdales, just in general) I realized that dog breeding probably wouldn't be my thing. I am not a person that buys or does things on impulse, I always research things thoroughly before I make a decision. Plus, it's not like something like this would happen tommorrow, or next week, or next month or even next year.
I am not a mean person and I have a heart for animals. How do you know I wouldn't pay for all of those expenses? Do you just _assume_ that I'm an irresponsible person without a heart? I paid almost $1000 to save my blue heeler, she had to have her toe amputated then got sick from some bad dog food. I paid almost $500 to save my main herdsire. I could have just been heartless and careless and just let them die but I didn't. I know a lot of people who would and I consider those people heartless.
If that's the way you feel, that's fine and that's your opinion and this is mine.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

PTCA bashing of other members is NOT allowed on this forum, keep it peaceful or I will have to resort to dreastic measures. This is not my intention right now but I expect friendliness among my members and your first post being this way is not condusive for friendly behavior. 

This is your one and final warning.


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