# What is the easiest livestock guardian animal?



## catharina

Hi everyone! I've been pretty much absent here lately due to some MAJOR life changes. My goats are currently being boarded by a friend in exchange for kids & a small amount of money. The good news is that once my divorce is final I should be able to afford a couple acres in the Sierra foothills...where there are coyotes, pumas & probably bears too...

The friend who is caring for my goats while I hide out in an apartment in Mississippi breeds G Ps & they do a great job. But all that long white fur! It just doesn't appeal to me... I sort of have a hair phobia. Well not sort of. It's a genuine irrational phobia.









Are there other LGDs with more manageable coats? Are burros or llamas as effective as LGDs?

Also, I have chickens & will probably get guinea fowl as well, if that matters. Any advice will be much appreciated!


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## catharina

As you can see from the photo, they were previously back yard goats, so while they will enjoy having some space, they have no experience with predators. They are doing well with my friend's LGDs despite not really liking dogs before. If it matters--San Clemente Island Goat newborns weigh only 4 to 5 pounds. Apparently ravens can be a problem.


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## mariarose

Anatolian Shepherds come in both lengths of coats. Independent, serious, intelligent.

One benefit of a non canine LGA (Livestock Guardian Animal) is the ease with which they can share food. One detriment of a non canine LGA is that they are also prey animals, and thus... well... prey.


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## fivemoremiles

Anatolian Mastiff Kangal all have easy to care hair.


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## toth boer goats

Anatolian 
Akbash


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## Dayna

I suggest NOT donkeys. lol I have two. They will kill my goats. Of all the dog breeds, I think my favorite that I've met so far have been Anatolians. Shorter hair is a big deal here in Hawaii so they are somewhat popular.


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## catharina

Dayna said:


> I suggest NOT donkeys. lol I have two. They will kill my goats. Of all the dog breeds, I think my favorite that I've met so far have been Anatolians. Shorter hair is a big deal here in Hawaii so they are somewhat popular.


Yes, donkeys really can be dangerous to goats though I guess sometimes it works out...

Sounds like the Anatolian dogs are the way to go then...I've never had an outdoor/non-pet dog so I'm feeling unsure & will need to educate myself beforehand.

Do you need to have at least 2 dogs so they aren't cold or lonely, or can a single dog be happy?


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## fivemoremiles

One dog is fine. I live in Montana and with the temp below 0 i find my dogs sleeping on a snow drift.
the herd is there pack and don't seem to be lonely.
I have to agree that having a dog that when they let you touch them, you feel privileged that it came up to you. then the next day the dog wont have any thing to do with you. It is totally strange


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## catharina

fivemoremiles said:


> One dog is fine. I live in Montana and with the temp below 0 i find my dogs sleeping on a snow drift.
> the herd is there pack and don't seem to be lonely.
> I have to agree that having a dog that when they let you touch them, you feel privileged that it came up to you. then the next day the dog wont have any thing to do with you. It is totally strange


I didn't even realize they could be unfriendly! What if you need to catch the dog for flea treatment or something? I really have some learning to do! I can just picture my goats, a formerly feral breed & not at all cuddly, forming some kind of conspiracy against me with the dog as their leader! Because the dog behavior you describe is exactly how my San Clementes are--kind of like having pet deer.


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## BorderKelpie

LGDs do require training and handling, just not like a pet dog does. Do not just get one and toss it out with your goats and hope for the best, especially since you have poultry, too.
I have a pair of LGDs and while they are in their pens with their livestock, I can still catch, leash walk (it's not a pretty heel type walk on a leash, but it gets us where I need us to be), trim toenails if needed, brush, etc.

If bears and pumas are a true problem, you may eventually need to get more than one dog. Start with one, though or they will bond with each other instead of the stock.

The first 2 years or so is training and bonding time. Well, not so much training as guidance and management, after that, trained properly, an LGD is worth its weight in gold.


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## mariarose

I'm always glad to have 2, they work in tandem. It isn't because they are lonely.

Yes they need training for a couple of years. Here's some advice to get you started. Don't be afraid to look foolish to your neighbors as you show your dogs what animals you don't want around. I've had pups entirely puzzled as to what to do, and then almost instantly "get it" when I start barking and snarling at hawks in the sky, or coyote on the hill. It is fun to see them lining up with me, facing the "danger"! Daily walk the perimeter of what you want them to guard.

Get a dog from a working farm situation, you can't trust what you'll get from a shelter. A shelter dog may be the finest animal in the world for you, Or could be traumatized and not have the heart to take on predators, or could be a livestock killer. Especially with poultry. They are still predators themselves, after all. And it is really hard to stop once they experience the thrill and taste.

One of my dogs is very friendly, the other does not willingly let me touch her. About once a year, I'm able to catch her (somehow) and vaccinate her and that's about it. Their daughter, who belongs to my son but is here on the property, is friendly.

If you get 2 dogs, consider getting an older one with some experience, and a pup, rather than 2 pups, who will back each other up not only in good things but also in bad.


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## catharina

Wow, what amazing & rather intimidating advice! I have to train myself first to be able to train them I guess..... Looking for all the information I can get, meanwhile.

Thanks everyone!


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## Trollmor

I have decided that such dogs are nothing for me. Too dangerous to have. Too demanding as to training and handling. In my world, a steady, high, electric fence sounds much more reliable, combined with some kind of net or fishing lines over the yard, to frighten off flying predators. (Fishing line because birds generally don't like very much to collide with something they cannot see!)

If a little advanced, I can recommend a fence with one thread out of two electric, and the rest to earth. This will enable the fence to work also in winter, when the earth is frozen it does not lead electricity, and snow still worse. And a human even with rubber boots will get difficulties, and perhaps consider the option of using the gate. Predators can have fur, feathers or clothes! 

And, some of them do dig under a fence. A net on the ground, preferably outside the fence will be a help.


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## mariarose

@Trollmor I often lay fencing flat on the ground on the outside of the fence, 2-3 feet works for most varmints. But why do you say that dogs are dangerous to own?

@catharina You've already learned how to interact with humans and how to interact with your goats. Learning how to interact with your dogs is just one more species...


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## Trollmor

mariarose said:


> @Trollmor I often lay fencing flat on the ground on the outside of the fence, 2-3 feet works for most varmints. But why do you say that dogs are dangerous to own?
> 
> @catharina You've already learned how to interact with humans and how to interact with your goats. Learning how to interact with your dogs is just one more species...


Yes, one more species, but I do prefer herding dogs! Maybe the laws differ, too. Here you have a "total responsibility" for your dog, no matter how things happen, the dog owner is always responsible. I dare not think of the costs if someone tries to steal a goat, and a good watching dog does its job. And a determined thief might harm the dog, too.

In my youth, I had a nice dog, who misunderstood something, and got out in the street in front of a car. She lost consciness for a while, but *I* had to pay for a destroyed blinker glass.


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## catharina

Trollmor said:


> I have decided that such dogs are nothing for me. Too dangerous to have. Too demanding as to training and handling. In my world, a steady, high, electric fence sounds much more reliable, combined with some kind of net or fishing lines over the yard, to frighten off flying predators. (Fishing line because birds generally don't like very much to collide with something they cannot see!)
> 
> If a little advanced, I can recommend a fence with one thread out of two electric, and the rest to earth. This will enable the fence to work also in winter, when the earth is frozen it does not lead electricity, and snow still worse. And a human even with rubber boots will get difficulties, and perhaps consider the option of using the gate. Predators can have fur, feathers or clothes!
> 
> And, some of them do dig under a fence. A net on the ground, preferably outside the fence will be a help.


 I find that option really appealing! I should also evaluate the cost of buying & operating an electric fence vs. buying & maintaining one or 2 large dogs.... The lady I know who has Pyrs was having to upgrade her fencing just to keep the dogs IN, anyway....

All this in advance of knowing exactly what sort of property I'll end up with & exactly where it will be....so much to consider! I appreciate every bit of information you guys are sharing!


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## catharina

mariarose

@catharina You've already learned how to interact with humans and how to interact with your goats. Learning how to interact with your dogs is just one more species...[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say that I am very adept at either, unfortunately. I am currently being manipulated & taken advantage of by my new housemate's obese, 3 legged chihuahua......


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## mariarose

catharina said:


> The lady I know who has Pyrs was having to upgrade her fencing just to keep the dogs IN, anyway....


Yes, GPs do have a large range. They aren't the best dogs for small areas, imo


catharina said:


> All this in advance of knowing exactly what sort of property I'll end up with & exactly where it will be....so much to consider!


Yes, you have time to learn and consider everything you need to.


catharina said:


> my new housemate's obese, 3 legged chihuahua.....


In my defense, the Toy breeds have never really "gotten" me...


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## catharina

So some other LGD breeds are easier than others? That makes sense.

Yeah I've never cared for toy dogs either...


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## mariarose

catharina said:


> So some other LGD breeds are easier than others?


"Easier" how?


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## Trollmor

Chihuahua? Those are usually really "much dog in a small body". I have heard of one, who was an efficient body guard to a woman with a mad ex. True, the chihuahua had a trained dobermann for assistance, but would have done much also without him. It was no good idea to go close to that woman without her expressed permission!

Of course, any fence will need maintenance, and an electric one for sure daily. But, if neglected, a fence as such will not suffer as a live dog will.  (True of course, a fence will not be a friend, but who needs more friends when you have GOATS??)


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## toth boer goats

I have my LGD's tame and I do give them occasional attention. 
I also can give shots, worm, or trim nails ect.
And take them to the vet for rabies vaccine or other issues. 
You want to be able to handle your dog for basic things.

They say not to pay attention to the LGD however, I ignored that, but do not treat them as if they are a lapdog or over give them attention to where they do not want to guard or be with the goats. This dog does his job very well.


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## MadCatX

Git ya a Donkey lolol.

@Trollmor understand that completely. I wish more Americans felt like this with their dogs.

Dogs are great but require alot of training love and responsibility..compared to installation of an electric fence..to me its easier.


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## mariarose

Donkeys don't do well against cougars, and can kill goats when they get cranky...


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## wwfarm

I lost many of my herd last year to a pack of stray dogs and spent a lot of time researching LGDs to determine what would suit me best. I do live where it gets extremely warm during the summer and worried about long haired breeds. I also though about getting a donkey but my vet advised against because I have other working dogs that are out and about at any given time.

After much discussion and advice, I purchased two Great Pyrenees pups from a reputable breeder that raised working dogs. He also insisted that I take one of his trained adult males (Tank) to help me with the acute problem until the pups grew and were trained. I wanted two puppies because the males and females work a little different. The females tend to stay close to the herd while the males will patrol the perimeter. That is exactly how mine work now! They do not allow any dogs to get close to my fence line and even chase the birds away. The female is much more protective than the male and she has a louder and more ferocious bark. Remember, these LGDs are nocturnal so they are up at night and bark!























I am so glad Tank came along. He saved my herd many times over in those early days. He also taught the other male pup how he was supposed to work and would correct him if he started to chase the goats. I have now had the three for a year and will be purchasing the adult as well because he has become a member of the family. It did take a while for my herd to get used to them as they are wary of dogs because I have working herding dogs and they had to learn to distinguish between them. Everyone lives in harmony now.

These dogs are worth their weight in gold. The Great Pyrenes have a double coat and the inner coat actually helps keep them cool in the hot weather. Mine are water loving dogs and I put out a kiddie pool for them in the summer although they still get in the troughs frequently.


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## fivemoremiles

i have found that raising two pups at the same time works good the pups play with each other and not with the herd. better yet is have an adult dog with two pups.


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## goodenuff

I have a Great Pyrenees puppy that just turned one, and you may not like the hair, but he is amazing! I actually never get hair from him at all on my clothing. He has already protected our goats and sheep from bears on multiple occasions, when he was only 6 months old!

He did get to the puppy stage where they jump everywhere, but that's normal in all dogs. He quickly passed that stage and is still figuring out what's dangerous and what isn't. If you were to get a dog, I would suggest it being a puppy so that they can bond with the herd and learn that the herd is they're family.

I would not suggest just having an electric fence since that very rarely works. All it does for us is keep our animals inside. We've had plenty of occasions where our animals were killed due to predators trampling the electric fence. It doesn't matter how high the voltage is on the fence; it's only going to stop a predator for so long. We had a bear go through our very strong fence and killed our last wool sheep. Our guard dog, Wilbur, kept everybody else safe since the sheep had started running. The bear had never came back!

Wilbur protects our goats from everything, ranging from skunks and coyotes, to bears and lions! So, if I had to suggest a guard dog breed, I would have to say a Great Pyrenees. They also are very popular where I live since they are such good animals. Just also have a electric fence as well to help reduce risks of predator attacks.

Here's some pics of him to maybe help persuade you!


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## goodenuff

<Reply to my earlier post>

He is perfectly fine with our chickens and turkey wandering around knows that they are okay! He's accustomed to having pigs, birds, pet dogs, pet cats, horses, sheep, and calves with him and will protect them as well. I definitely recommend a Great Pyrenees.


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## Calistar

I live in sunny California and I have a Pyrenees and I love her. Mine isn't one of those giant, blocky, massively hairy ones. She's somewhere in the middle, like goodenuff's. I have seen litters where some have shorter hair. I think Maremmas and Akbash, while large and white, are smaller build and have shorter hair than a Pyrenees, but I have never met one. And of course there are Anatolian shepherds, although I have heard of them being slightly more aggressive than Pyrenees, as a whole.

Any dog is going to require lots of training though. I didn't trust my dog with the goats unsupervised full time until about when she turned two, and she was born in a sheep barn and raised by her mother with the stock until she was 3 months old (at which point I bought her and took over.) I think a dog is definitely the best option though. If you don't have time to train a puppy, see if you can buy an older dog, or build a parameter pen around your main pen for the dog, so it can be with the stock without being able to get TO them. I've heard too many horror stories about donkeys to be able to ever consider using one of them, unless it was in a parameter pen and couldn't actually get to the stock. If I couldn't have dogs, my next choice would probably be a llama, but even those are very hit-or-miss, have more hair to deal with than a dog, and are a prey species.


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## Damfino

I love electric fences for predator protection, but they are useless against mountain lions. They work very well on bears and coyotes, but we did lose a goat to coyotes one time when my electric fence was off one night. That was my fault. I had to turn it off to unbury it from a heavy snow and I forgot to plug it back in. A few hours later we heard coyotes and one of my mama goats was dead near the bottom of the pen. I felt horrible, but I also decided to get a LGD. 

Within 3 days I'd found a 3-year-old Pyrenees/Australian Shepherd cross on Craigslist. She has been amazing, but way too hot for our climate. I bought an Anatolian Shepherd pup 3 years ago and he's a lot lower maintenance when it comes to hair. I have to get my Pyrenees cross shaved every summer or she just about dies of heat stroke. She won't do her job because she hides under the trailer to try to escape the heat. I've almost run over her a couple of times when I didn't know she was under there. She also swims in the troughs, and since I have to haul all my water by truck, I can't afford to keep dumping and cleaning horse and goat troughs all summer! So we get her shaved, which is quite expensive. 

I like the dog/electric fence combo. The electric fence keeps the goats and dogs in (the Anatolian likes to roam), and the dogs keep predators from even approaching our property. We have a lot of mountain lions and bears here, but I have never seen a mountain lion (nor do I wish to!), and we rarely see bears near our property any more. The coyotes have disappeared too. Just having the dogs around keeps the predators from even walking by to scope our place out.


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## toth boer goats

Beautiful dogs.


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## wwfarm

goodenuff said:


> I have a Great Pyrenees puppy that just turned one, and you may not like the hair, but he is amazing! I actually never get hair from him at all on my clothing. He has already protected our goats and sheep from bears on multiple occasions, when he was only 6 months old!
> 
> He did get to the puppy stage where they jump everywhere, but that's normal in all dogs. He quickly passed that stage and is still figuring out what's dangerous and what isn't. If you were to get a dog, I would suggest it being a puppy so that they can bond with the herd and learn that the herd is they're family.
> 
> I would not suggest just having an electric fence since that very rarely works. All it does for us is keep our animals inside. We've had plenty of occasions where our animals were killed due to predators trampling the electric fence. It doesn't matter how high the voltage is on the fence; it's only going to stop a predator for so long. We had a bear go through our very strong fence and killed our last wool sheep. Our guard dog, Wilbur, kept everybody else safe since the sheep had started running. The bear had never came back!
> 
> Wilbur protects our goats from everything, ranging from skunks and coyotes, to bears and lions! So, if I had to suggest a guard dog breed, I would have to say a Great Pyrenees. They also are very popular where I live since they are such good animals. Just also have a electric fence as well to help reduce risks of predator attacks.
> 
> Here's some pics of him to maybe help persuade you!
> View attachment 142359
> View attachment 142361
> View attachment 142365


What a beautiful dog!


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## slackwater

Disclaimer - I raise anatolians.

In reality, there isnt any fencing that will fend off a truly motivated bear, cougar or even pack of large dogs. A quick electric jolt is nothing to one of those animals - assuming they can't get over, or under, the fencing anywhere else.

And, depending on your setup, it may not be very feasible to create an entirely meshed/netted enclosure. Would you do that over several wooded, mountainous acres?

If you have big predators (anything bigger than a raccoon, for goats), your best option is an LGD. 2+ for coyotes, 3+ for bears. PLUS appropriate fencing. Typically, if it will keep a goat in, it will keep a dog in. GPs tend to be a bit more difficult to contain - some breeds are easier and more home bodies.

We only have coyotes in our area. A couple of nights ago was the first time something breached our fence - HOT, high tensile electric, but whatever it was still came in. Two dogs fended it off (one got seriously injured in the process) and one stayed behind with the goats at the shed (perimeter/close guard behavior). Whatever it was was canine - and headed for our goats. Thanks to Echo, Zulu and Tessa, the goats are safe.


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## Constehlla

Just like a lot of people here, I’d have to recommend Anatolians. I just got a young dog for my relatively new herd. I haven’t had much of a chance to train him so far, and he still has puppy habits, but he is sharp. He will be laying down while I spend time with the goats, seemingly resting, but will suddenly shoot off and start growling at the unmowed plot next to me. Even without training, they are very capable dogs.


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## catharina

mariarose said:


> "Easier" how?


Easier--not having a coat that needs maintenance, staying in the pen with the goats, easier to train....like are some breeds better for beginners? I did not grow up with exposure to farms or farm animals. My goats are already enough of a challenge to me.


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## mariarose

From time to time, there are people getting out of goats or sheep, then they try to sell their dogs because they are so unhappy. Were I you, I'd invest in one of these already trained dogs. I think you'll be money ahead to have something experienced and able to help train a couple of pups.


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## mariarose

Individual personality differences matter. That said, here are some generalities from my experience. 

If you choose a pup or pups, middle of the litter pecking order is best. A pup on top or a pup on the bottom are both more challenging for a beginner owner than in the middle. In my experience, males tend to roam more than females, GPs tend to roam more than ASs, GPs are friendlier than ASs. Super large dogs get hurt much more easily than midsized dogs, and everything is more expensive at the vet for a super large dog. You should be willing to get the dogs fixed. Because dogs that are not neutered will want to roam, sometimes being gone for days. Bitches who are not spayed will attract dogs and coyotes to them (and to your herd). Believe me, once I got out of the puppy business, everyone got fixed.

OK, I know there will be exceptions to everything above.


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## catharina

mariarose said:


> From time to time, there are people getting out of goats or sheep, then they try to sell their dogs because they are so unhappy. Were I you, I'd invest in one of these already trained dogs. I think you'll be money ahead to have something experienced and able to help train a couple of pups.


That's such great advice! I've seen some LGD facebook pages where I could inquire. I wonder where else I could look?


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## mariarose

Well, wherever you look, don't bounce out and get dogs when you don't have a job for them. Their development won't wait for you to put them where you ultimately want them... and to focus on you instead of your goats and your property would, imo, be counterproductive.


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## singinggoatgirl

A few things I would add is that any LGD can be friends with you, but all of them will be very serious as adults. They aren't slavish followers like many breeds of dog, especially hunting and herding dogs. They are intelligent co-workers. They will consider what you see as a command as a suggestion and will decide for themselves whether or not it is worth their time. They aren't likely to goof off. They won't play fetch with you because they're too busy guarding your farm. They might not come when called because they are busy checking out a disturbance. This does not mean they can't be affectionate. Mine was very serious about her job, but always would ask for a petting... with one ear cocked toward the woods the whole time. You can't throw a puppy out there and expect it to hold off a cougar on day one.


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## mimi666

We made a huge mistake with our Pyr. My husband bought him from a misc person and then did not want to put the puppy in with the goats so let him live in the house. Now we have a pyr that destroys the house, attacks the goats and sheep and barks all night. Things I have learned, get from a reputable breeder, put them in with your herd immediately and prepare for barking. I wouldn’t mind the barking if he protected the herd but he is too aggressive thinking he is protecting us.


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## Trollmor

Sounds as if "pyrs" are not "the easiest livestock guardian animal" ...


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## mimi666

Trollmor said:


> Sounds as if "pyrs" are not "the easiest livestock guardian animal" ...


I think any animal but especially a Guardian livestock dog has to be trained properly. It isn't the dogs fault or the breed it is our fault. We didn't do our job so how can he do his?


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## cbrossard

If you are only going to have a couple of acres, I'm not sure you will want a lgd barking all night... 

Llamas could be an option for you too, but you have to get one (or 2) that actually have the guarding instinct. I got 2 llamas for free hoping they would keep the coyotes from eating my chickens, but they didn't seem bothered at all when I came out one day to see a coyote in my field in the process of eating my chickens! They are super easy to care for though. They have a lot of hair, but it doesn't shed, and the "classic" variety doesn't even grow that much hair... 

We have coyotes, bears, and cougar around here, but none have bothered my goats at all thankfully.


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## mimi666

We have a coyote problem and lost recently a duck and a sheep. If my Pyr had been in the pasture with the animals I do not think that would have happened. I have decided to diligently take on training my Pry even though he is 2 years old. I have a shock collar and I am going to start by slowly introducing him to the herd on a leash and then shocking him when he is aggressive or too playful. I have been reading up on the subject and I am hoping I can make a good LGD out of him.


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## catharina

cbrossard said:


> If you are only going to have a couple of acres, I'm not sure you will want a lgd barking all night...
> 
> Llamas could be an option for you too, but you have to get one (or 2) that actually have the guarding instinct. I got 2 llamas for free hoping they would keep the coyotes from eating my chickens, but they didn't seem bothered at all when I came out one day to see a coyote in my field in the process of eating my chickens! They are super easy to care for though. They have a lot of hair, but it doesn't shed, and the "classic" variety doesn't even grow that much hair...
> 
> We have coyotes, bears, and cougar around here, but none have bothered my goats at all thankfully.


That's very interesting! I suppose like dogs, the llama may have to be raised to be a guardian? Do you need 2 so they have company or for safety reasons?


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## ksalvagno

With llamas, they either have the guarding instinct or they don't. There is no training. Depending on the size of the herd would depend on the number of llamas.


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## Trollmor

mimi666 said:


> I think any animal but especially a Guardian livestock dog has to be trained properly. It isn't the dogs fault or the breed it is our fault. We didn't do our job so how can he do his?


Exactly! It is not easy at all.

One of my friends with some 10 or 15 sheep reported her lama had been killed by two loose hunting dogs.


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## mariarose

Trollmor said:


> One of my friends... reported her lama had been killed by two loose hunting dogs.


Which is EXACTLY the problem I pointed out about non-canine guardians. Then they are prey animals, and therefore, prey.

I hate it when people let hunting dogs loose...

If any dog is going to get through a fence, it is hunters.


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## fivemoremiles

I have had nearly all types of guarding animal.
Llamas are surprisingly good ageist coyotes but domestic dogs not at oll. mine was killed by a dog.
Burros work good some will kill kids and goats. but most work as guardians. my experience was they are a desert animal and the green grass foundered the poor thing.
Dogs work the best for me. my biggest problem has been humans shooting trapping and cars. i have had 6 dogs just vanish.
yaks do not work. unless you like seeing goats fly through the air. the yak gored and killed a 300 lbs ram


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## Trollmor

Sounds as if the yak saw the ram as a competitor for the grass?

Besides a good fence, if possible electric, I have heard geese being good warners, since they are said to make a big noise if any stranger approaches. But of course they can do exactly nothing against a hunting animal.

Here we have the "five big" - wolf, bear, lynx, wolverine, and eagle. But the worst is the sixth: man.


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## cbrossard

catharina said:


> Do you need 2 so they have company or for safety reasons?


Some things I read said that you should have one llama so that they bond more with the goats, but other info. said that they have found that groups of llamas guard well together... So I don't really know!


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## Lstein

"Easiest" is probably a llama, pretty much fit right in..... I wouldn't call them effective though, except for a few that are really good at it.

I'm a poor example for the llama option, but I had two (still have one) that we got as a 6 month old and a bottle baby (don't do it, just don't).

They weren't sold as guardian material or anything. I had thought just having a llama would do the trick, which wasn't the case. 

The bottle baby turned extremely aggressive (exactly like all the warnings and advise said it would). The other one we still have but she's more of a ornament really. We've seen her chase coyotes before, but I've also watched her stand there and watch the coyote chase the goats. Which isn't anything like what an actual guardian llama is said to do. 

Though to give her credit, now that she's solo, she has been starting to more protective of the goats but still nothing consistent.

Having two just meant that they would go off as a pair by themselves, in my case.

We are starting to really think about a Great Pyrenees.


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## mariarose

Lstein said:


> I had thought just having a llama would do the trick, which wasn't the case.


That was a very helpful post


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## ksalvagno

I had 2 llamas. One would stay by the threat, one would herd the alpacas to the barn.

There was a sheep farm down the street from me. They had 3 llamas. The llamas always positioned themselves so they were like a triangle to see a threat from any direction. 

But these are examples of actual guard llamas who did their job. But they still won't be able to ward off a pack of something. We just had the occasional dog or coyote go by.


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## Trollmor

ksalvagno said:


> I had 2 llamas. One would stay by the threat, one would herd the alpacas to the barn.


This reminds very much at David Mackenzie's description of the leader buck, a behaviour "which secures for him an early and heroic end, when available". The task of leading the flock into security belongs to the flock queen. I wonder, is there a difference between male and female lamas? (Also when it comes to aggression.)


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## ksalvagno

Not sure. Both my llamas were females. The other 3 llamas were gelded males.


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## Korita

mariarose said:


> Donkeys don't do well against cougars, and can kill goats when they get cranky...


We thought about getting a donkey for the herd because we have coyotes around us. But I'm all my reading, I hadn't heard this. Probably not getting a donkey now.



wwfarm said:


> I lost many of my herd last year to a pack of stray dogs and spent a lot of time researching LGDs to determine what would suit me best. I do live where it gets extremely warm during the summer and worried about long haired breeds.


I saw you said it later in your post but want to be sure she saw it. Dogs with long coats and double coats will not get overheated or hot any faster (if even as fast) as short coat dogs. The double coat actually helps keep them warm in cooler times and helps them stay cool in warmer temps. DO NOT SHAVE your double coated dog. You will actually do more damage to it by shaving and it can overheat then.

Along with training abilities and such, look into different personality characteristics of the breed of dog as well. Some breeds (even when focused on work) are going to be better/worse for your situation. Will you have a lot of company at your place? Will that company include young children? Etc. Some breeds, working or not, tend to be better or not as good in different settings and such but good training goes a long way too.

@slackwater can you help me here? I saw you raise anatolians and I'm not as familiar with them. Is it them that are more prone to not be as welcoming to young children? Or am I off my rocker and mistaking for another breed. I remember reading it in many places of a certain LGD breed known to not be as good and possibly more prone to be aggressive with young children when researching. It stuck with me because I have 2 toddlers myself and do in-home daycare but now I'm not sure if it was the Anatolians or not. I don't like to completely label a breed either though because how, where and what they're raised around makes a big difference in my experience with any dog but not always.

I wish you the best and hope you get settled and can get your babies back


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## Damfino

Korita said:


> I saw you said it later in your post but want to be sure she saw it. Dogs with long coats and double coats will not get overheated or hot any faster (if even as fast) as short coat dogs. The double coat actually helps keep them warm in cooler times and helps them stay cool in warmer temps. DO NOT SHAVE your double coated dog. You will actually do more damage to it by shaving and it can overheat then.


Huh... this does not seem to apply to my Pyrenees cross. She is absolutely _miserable_ in hot weather if we don't get her shaved. She lays in the horse trough or goes down the hill to hang out in my neighbor's pond, and if I scold her for swimming in the trough she hides under my trailers. In fact, I very nearly ran over her once because I didn't know she was under there. She stays sad, lethargic, and panting until we get her shaved, then suddenly she morphs into a frolicking pup. Since I have to haul water by truck I really can't have her swimming in the troughs and fouling the water. Getting her shaved fixes that problem and she stays cool enough just by hanging out under a tree.


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## mariarose

Korita said:


> Dogs with... double coats will not get overheated or hot any faster


I respectfully disagree. The outer coat can keep the heat of the sun off, but you MUST get rid of that inner coat if you want your double coated dog to tolerate heat. That's what the "blow" of double coated animals is, getting rid of that inner coat.

Wild animals "blow" easily and quickly. Domesticated animals may very well need our help. It is part of the contract we have with the living animals we have affected with our breeding programs. Like sheep. We have made the inner and outer coat to be so much alike through millennia of breeding, that an annual shearing is now a necessity

Please, in heat and humidity, tend to that inner coat. Use a brush, comb, etc. to pull that coat out because it may not blow on it's own any more.

Short haired dogs don't require as much attention, but brushing is still healthy for the skin and helps get rid of that inner coat.


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## Korita

Yes. Get rid of the undercoat for summer. They naturally shed undercoat during warmer months. Brushing out or blowing out will help them to get it all out of there. This allows the outer coat to stay there to protect against sun and burning while letting cool air pass through to help cool the dog.

I said don't shave. Which I stand by. Any reputable groomer will tell you the same thing. By shaving a double coat, you actually ruin their coat.

I understand where you're coming from @mariarose so I should reword how I said that part you quoted. They won't get hotter or overheat any faster than other dog breeds IF they have properly shed that undercoat and had it brushed/blown out.

@Damfino She may have just needed a good blow out. But now that she's been shaved, have you noticed her coat doesn't grow back quite like it was before that first shave?

I'm truly not trying to be disrespectful at all as I have the utmost respect for you both! I just feel terrible for double coated dogs that get shaved and eventually lose the abilities their double coat was meant for because someone is uneducated or has a lazy groomer that chooses to shave instead of the proper bath and blow out for a double coat.


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## Trollmor

How about making something from all that soft hair?


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## Korita

Trollmor said:


> How about making something from all that soft hair?


Some do that! If you have a spinning wheel (or maybe even if you don't), the undercoat is so soft and fluffy it can make some awesome yarn!


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## Trollmor

Korita said:


> Some do that! If you have a *spinning wheel* (or maybe even if you don't), the undercoat is so soft and fluffy it can make some awesome yarn!


So thanks for the word, which I needed a minute ago!  How about making a thread here, buying, selling, giving away such hair and/or yarn? It is rather exclusive, isn't it?


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## Idahogoats

I have a friend with two donkeys and they protect his goats.


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