# Kids dying at 3 days old



## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

I have had two buck kids die at 3 days old one about a month ago and one last night but the symptoms were the same.

I vaccinate or booster my does for cdt a month before due date. I also inject Bose two weeks before due date. 

I was treating both kids for eyelashes turned in. So both kids had watery eyes a day or two before dying. In both instances kid was found cold lying flat out in pen. I rushed kid in the house slowly warmed up with warm towels and heat lamp. Gave shot of b12 right away and took temps. When temp was gradually up to normal above 38degrees Celsius I would attempt at feeding a tiny amount of milk. The first kid we tube fed and he was starting to look hopeful and was sucking on a bottle on his own. Then he went limp and hung on for a couple hours and died. The last kid I could get no response out of him even when his temp was up he too became limp and would kick his legs a bit and then became still somewhat like a seizure after a couple of these he too died. 

The first kid I chalked up as his eyesight was making it hard for him to eat and by the time we found him it was too late. But the second kid? It seems mysterious is there something I'm doing wrong here or can be either doing at birth or before I have more does due? I don't know how many more sleepless nights of microwaving towels that end in heartbreak I can take. :-(

-also I have heard that the flipped eyelashes is hereditary but is there another cause? Or what makes them more susceptible? The first guy his sister didn't have it and the last guy his brother and he did. The kids in question have different sires and all other kids born seem ok.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

You might want to research "floppy kid syndrome" and figure out a game plan that you think looks best if you run into the problem again. That's what I would do.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What do you feed your goats? What supplements do you give?


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

I do have 16 other newborn kids on the ground that are healthy and rambunctious so it's not every kid affected if that helps with anything.

I feed pea hay and goat texture along with trace mineral and iodized salt blocks. I sprinkle loose trace mineral in the feeder as well


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

Ok, so I read a bit about it sounds like it could be possible I'm not sure how one would prevent it or how to know which kids it will affect. I am going to submit this last kid for necropsy to be sure


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That will be good to do a necropsy.


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## Redbarngoatfarm (Jul 8, 2015)

Sorry for your losses. We put so much energy in doing our bet for these little ones it just doesn't seem fair. Glad you are doing a necropsy, please post your findings here, I will be following.


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

Minerals are super important to all goats even more so for pregnant goats. Make sure you provide a really good loose goat mineral free choice and get the salt block out of there. I don't know anything about pea hay but alfalfa is great.


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

Pea hay is a legume like alfalfa, I had it tested before we started feeding. It isn't as high in protein as alfalfa which is why I supplement with a 15%goat texture, the tdn on the pea hay is comparable to alfalfa. All my goats have Access to both blocks and loose minerals as well as salt. 

I have read quite a bit on the internet about floppy kid now some of it sounds quite spot on and other things that don't fit I am really looking forward to seeing what the results come back as. I am going to go buy some fks treatment things today such as thiamine and dextrose but if any of you have experience with treating fks I would love to hear what your course of action is! It's funny because one article said the way we care for our goats has improved so much nutrition wise that it is allowing our does to produce more milk, and then we separate the doe and kids to let them bond therefore with the extra milk production and now the does can't simply walk away from the kid as they would on the range we are now giving that kid a smorgasbord and fks... Not sure how accurate this is or not 

Thank you for all your kind words and I will keep you posted on the results!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Mama does do excellent job of feeding their kids by stepping away when they've had enough so I don't believe that is your problem.
As already mentioned, good loose minerals & take away the salt block.
But this wouldn't be the sole cause.
I have read that a possible cause of FKS is traumatic birth. We had one case here many years ago. It was indeed traumatic birth & dam died a few days later. I pulled him through but he relapsed about a month later. His bro was fine.
Treatment included penicillin, thiamine, dextrose & electrolytes on a tight schedule.
Good call on having necropsy done I hope they can pinpoint something.
You say that your other does & kids are doing fine?


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

Hmm that's interesting on the traumatic birthing both boys were twins and born on their own with no assistance, I do have a set of twins that would have had a more traumatic birth that seem ok but I will be watching!! In both cases these are big healthy buck kids at birth they stand up right away and were quick to nurse.

Perfect that's what I read as a treatment I am going to go pick up some dextrose today to have it on hand.

So far I have had 18 born mostly unassisted, depending on the goat I either put them separate as soon as they give birth to a kidding pen or give them some time in the kidding pen before birth to reduce stress either way. All the babies are doing really well. I had one case of scours treated and that's about it except these two cases of flipped eyelids that turn into dead kids. All the moms are looking really good too, I'm bottle feeding 3 kids because the one doe had quads and couldn't possibly feed more than two and the other doe was having trouble producing enough milk for both kids so I pulled one of them but other than that the milk production and overall health of the kids is great






this Doeling is about one month old and the first casualties sister.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

She sure is cute!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

milk of magnesia is good for FKS as well....very sorry for your losses


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

Is it possible it is genetic? Where the 2 you lost related?


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

Thank you! I will see if I can get some milk of magnesia too I haven't seen it on shelves anywhere but I will order if I have to. 

It isn't possible as far as I know, the does are from different farms and the one I bought pregnant and the second one my buck was the sire.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

I knew you were going to read some conflicting advise. I was hoping you would find some sort of consensus that made sense to you and then form a plan. Here is an article by a boer breeder that seems to be a popular treatment.
http://www.barnonemeatgoats.com/fks.html


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

was there lot of drool around the kids mouth?


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

Actually in this last case yes there was quite a bit of drool


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

What you have described may have been Water mouth. Water mouth is an Ecoli infection that affects new born's with in five days of birth. there is little you can do for it by the time you see symptoms it is too late. the best thing you can do is make sure that the kids get colostrum as soon as possible. I see it when the kid is slow to get off the ground or was chilled and I had to warm it up. Make sure that you sanitize your tubing equipment. when you tub milk down a kid you can spred Ecoli.


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

That is really interesting. I have never heard of that before. It's funny the buck kid that just passed was a big guy at birth right away he was up and searching to nurse he probably had a good bout of colostrum within 30mins of hitting the ground. 

I went and bought everything necessary to treat FKS today to have on hand- I'm still looking forward to the necropsy results.


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

Got necropsy back... He starved :-( I guess because he was so big when he was born I couldn't tell that he wasn't getting enough and with the bad eyesight and his brother being so aggressive to drink I guess he just got pushed out of the way. I am relieved it wasn't floppy kid but mad at myself I missed this. On the bright side I have learnt quite a bit from this experience


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## jschies (Aug 15, 2014)

If he died of floppy kid syndrome wouldn't it look like he starved in a necropsy? The kids that I have dealt with couldn't nurse because of the neurological effects of it. Penicillin and thiamine orally saved them. We noticed them just standing and wanting to nurse but no more ability to suck.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm sorry you lost him. What I like to do is weigh kids daily using my hanging fish scale. I put them in a bag that I have weighed first and then subtract the bag weight. It weighs in pounds and tenths of pounds so I can see very quickly if they are losing or gaining. Currently using it to keep track of my Chihuahua puppy's weight gain.


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

I am not sure if it would look like starving or not from what I have read about fks is that it predominately affected the strong kids that could be overeating. At 3 days old there should have been something in his system but I'm not sure. I did write on the submission that I "suspected" fks and the lady doing the necropsy called me worried about the twin brother because this guy had no milk in his system but she wasn't done her tests yet. So she did look into fks as well as doing a pathogen test and those came up clean.

Thanks for the weighing idea, I just assumed I would be able to tell if they weren't getting enough by poking tummys and seeing if anyone was hunched up looking hungry but I guess not


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

glad you got answers....goats are forever teaching us...sometimes through wins and sometimes through losses...the losses are never easy.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

Never assume the kid is getting milk. a early warning starvation test you should do is to stick your finger in the kids mouth. that will tell you instantly if the kid has had enough milk.
a full kids temp is 101 a hungry kids temp is 95 or lower.
if the kids mouth is warm it is good if it is cool you MUST ACT NOW.
after you get the kid fed and the temp up treed it for pneumonia.


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## heidivand (Aug 17, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies. I have learnt a lesson and I am so glad I got him necropsy'd because I would have assumed fks. this kid didn't look "hungry" I'm out in the barn a lot especially during kidding and he was always up and looked fine I witnessed him nursing but between the fish teats on the dam and his bad eyes I guess he was latched on to an inactive teat. I have taken kids away at 1 or 2 days old because it's obvious they are hungry they are hunched up and cold looking but this guy didn't look like that his dam had a ton of milk on both sides of her udder. I obviously overlooked him at somepoint because I missed this but I learnt and I won't have any more kids starving on my watch. Thanks for all the advice and kind words goats are hard :-(


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