# Stillborn and mama question



## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

One of my Nigerian Dwarf does kidded four days early yesterday. I had checked her ligaments not 2 hours before and I thought for sure she was nowhere near close (her half sister has had almost no ligaments for four days and is on day 146). But less than two hours later, there was a baby on the floor, half cleaned off and two hooves were hanging several inches out of Mama. I immediately gloved up and went in to find that the head was all the way back, back of skull touching spine. I tried really hard to push the legs back in, as quickly and gently as possible, and reposition the head to get her our properly. After about 25 minutes I got everything situated and the baby out but unfortunately it was too late -- she had already passed. Of course I beat myself up for a while but now I'm realizing that I literally couldn't have done anything differently or better and if I wasn't an OCD goat Mala who checks on everyone every 2 hours, I likely would have lost her as well. I let mama see and clean her baby off, and feed her living doeling.









Today, she's understandably tired and seems uncomfortable, which is to be expected (but an awesome and attentive mama). Doeling #2 was quite big, plus my hand, tiny as it is... it was a lot for her, of course.

Obviously there's not much I can do for her emotionally other than a million hugs and snuggles but what can I do for her poor vagina? It's so swollen and looks absolutely painful. I don't see any visible tearing but don't want to touch her beyond cleaning her up or getting something on her that might help ease her pain. She has some Pine shavings stuck to her so I'm going to clean those off and make sure there aren't any tears. Do you have any suggestions beyond a warm damp cloth? Or anything internal that's okay for a nursing mama? I thought about lavender essential oil, diluted, but I don't want to introduce anything that could potentially cause infection, not that I would think lavender would but I don't know what's goat vagina safe. I have a pretty over the top kidding kit for almost any possible scenario but just realized this morning that I don't have anything for pain and feel badly for overlooking that potential need. Do you have any suggestions?


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

I'm actually now thinking she may have torn a little. I know with humans if it's a little tear, you are to let it heal on its own but if it's a big tear you need stitches. Is that the same with goats?


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

If she is up and moving and nursing the kid she will be fine. Just keep an eye on her temp for a few days because you had go fishing. If it goes up or you notice a bad scent back there then it is time to reevaluate.


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## wheel-bear-o (Jul 6, 2020)

You can use some human Preparation H, the kind for hemorrhoids, to help soothe the vulval swelling. She may also enjoy you holding a cool pack back there.

I would assume that unless the tear is large and obvious she probably doesn't need stitches, but you may want to consider an antibiotic especially since you had to put your hand in.

Edit: and oh my, that doeling is cute. I'm so sorry you lost her sibling, but I'm glad you aren't beating yourself up too much. She wasn't showing the typical signs, you simply couldn't have known she was about to kid. Darn doe code!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If it is a small vulva tear she will be OK.
If large she should be stitched.

For swelling and pain put hemorrhoid cream on her.

Did you put a afterbirth bolus in her uterus after she dropped her afterbirth?

You may want to start antibiotics or watch her closely. 

Do you have any banamine?

dampening the area to remove shavings helps. 
Maybe with a spray bottle of warm water, spray the area until it loosens the shavings. 

So sorry for the loss. 
It is very hard getting out head back kids alive. 
You did a good job by saving mama and baby.


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

Sfgwife said:


> If she is up and moving and nursing the kid she will be fine. Just keep an eye on her temp for a few days because you had go fishing. If it goes up or you notice a bad scent back there then it is time to reevaluate.


Thank you! I actually just came in to get the thermometer because for some reason in all of the chaos and sleeplessness I didn't think about it until just a few minutes ago. Right now she has no odor and is eating and drinking, albeit a bit less than usual but again, she's super tired, and up nursing regularly. It just looks so painful! I super appreciate the reassurance.


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

wheel-bear-o said:


> You can use some human Preparation H, the kind for hemorrhoids, to help soothe the vulval swelling. She may also enjoy you holding a cool pack back there.
> 
> I would assume that unless the tear is large and obvious she probably doesn't need stitches, but you may want to consider an antibiotic especially since you had to put your hand in.
> 
> Edit: and oh my, that doeling is cute. I'm so sorry you lost her sibling, but I'm glad you aren't beating yourself up too much. She wasn't showing the typical signs, you simply couldn't have known she was about to kid. Darn doe code!


Definite darn do code! Her half-sister has had almost no ligaments for days and has been nesting with tons of discharge and looking totally ready but nothing.

Great call on Preparation H. I'll have my husband get some on his way home from work.

If it's s tear it's small. I can't entirely tell but definitely not hugely obvious. I just cleaned her up a bit and may go get photo in a few.

Good call on antibiotics. I have one type but being as brain-dead as I am I can't remember what it's called. LA 2000? I'm sure you know what I'm talking about more than I do right now, LOL. I've only done injections a couple of times and I'm horrible at it but trying is better than not so I will look up her dosage and get right on that, or at least have it ready to go if anything changes. I try to to do everything naturally with my goats but of course would not hesitate to give antibiotics if it was necessary.

Edit: I submitted my response too soon. Thank you so much! For the advice and your condolences both.


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> If it is a small vulva tear she will be OK.
> If large she should be stitched.
> 
> For swelling and pain put hemorrhoid cream on her.
> ...


Thank you so much! Every time you reply to anything I want to tell you I love you because you're always so knowledgeable. I've only delivered 11 kids to date so I'm still a novice.

My husband is going to bring some hemorrhoid cream home with him today so I will get that on her in about 3 or 4 hours. That should surely help. I'm embarrassed to admit that I've never heard of an after-birth bolus so I'm going to be Googling that next. I'll make sure that's something I have from here on out (5 more does will be kidding).

I have antibiotics and I'm going to get a syringe ready so I'll have it at a moment's notice. Right now she's acting totally normal and fine. I'm actually walking out to get a picture of her bottom, thermometer and warm spray bottle in hand. That is such a brilliant idea! I didn't even think about a spray bottle! And ironically I just got one in the mail from Amazon about an hour ago so this is perfect.









Okay, you're getting a live-action voice text. I just got a picture of her before cleaning (obviously). As soon as I submit this I'm going to clean her up. I can't tell if that is a tear at the top or not but hope it'll be more obvious once I get her cleaned up here in a minute. I brought the warm spray bottle, a dry washcloth and a damp cool one to see if she has a preference.

I don't have any benamine but will call our two more local farm stores to see if they carry it. We live in a place where a lot of things are extremely difficult to find but hopefully that's not one of them. I've always thought my kidding kit was thorough because I have so many items I've never even had to use (and tons I have) but now I'm realizing it could use some definite updating.

Thank you so very much! I was so scared I was going to lose her yesterday. I've had two girls kid in the last 5 days (all 5 kids have been doelings) and the second kid was super tangled/malpositioned with both does. I hope that it's just a strange coincidence and not a theme for this kidding season.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Head back kid can be extremely difficult to deal with..good job on getting the kid out. All good advice given already for Prep H and Banamine. If you have witch hazel on hand that can be very soothing to her sore area. Adding a drop or 2 of quality lavender ess. Oil would be a bonus. If you don't have uterus bolus you can do a flush...a 50/50 blend of vinegar and water and if you have quality Essential oils you can add lavender and or Tea tree.. make sure flush is nice and warm. Use a new large syringe or sterile squeeze type bottle like a hair dye bottle or pic nic mustard/katsup bottle...sterile is important or a new sterile turkey baster. 

Congrats on the adorable surviving baby. I think mom will be just fine in a day or so


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Wow, great job! Head back is a nightmare, way to keep your cool.
Yep what they said. She’ll be sore for a couple days. Rest and lots of attention will help her heal.
Very cute doeling. Congratulations


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

thank you so much, @happybleats and @GoofyGoat! I'm mixing up a witch hazel and lavender essential oil spray right now because her vagina looks pretty bad/painful. I sent a picture to my breeder friend with a decade of experience last night and she said it looks normal for a very difficult birth but today she has a little bit of yellow. It doesn't look like discharge, it doesn't smell and she doesn't have a fever but it's visually worrying so I will work on flushing her tonight as well if nothing looks better by then. In the chaos of it all, I did have very clean hands and a prepackaged sanitary obstetric glove but my brain didn't even go to iodine or anything at the time (she was 4 days early and had her ligaments less than 2 hours before, wasn't fully bagged up, etc so baby number one was on the floor and baby number two was hanging out of her when I did my 2 hour rounds). I'm familiar with the flushing procedure, fortunately or unfortunately, depending upon how you look at it. I have to go see what kind of bottles I have on hand but if I don't have anything immediately available my husband will be off work in a couple hours and can grab something on his way home. I have a friend coming over at the same time to give her antibiotics just in case. I'm rubbish with injections and definitely need to work on that. These girls sure do know how to keep us on our toes, don't they! Meanwhile, I have a girl that's two days past her last possible due date so I'm definitely getting my exercise running back and forth back and forth back and forth between goat houses. ♡ Oh, and I'm ordering those blouses tonight. Thank you all sooo much!


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

One more question. I found uterine boluses labeled for goats but they are out of stock at both places I found them and everywhere else only carries these which is only labeled for dairy cattle and sheep. Can I use these with a Nigerian Dwarf or should I wait until the other place has the goat specific ones back in stock?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good job!! And be sure to do a complete round of antibiotics . Penicillin is great for this 1 cc per 20 pounds sub q 2 times a day unless you have long acting Penicillin then once a day. 5 full days. Always pull back plunger and check for blood. No blood is good to go..see blood..re adjust and try again. Penicillin in the vein can kill a goat, so always check. If your friend can't come that often, make this first shot a lesson cause it will be a skill you will need again. I was so squeamish I couldn't even open a drawer if there were needles in it lol. I had to get over that when my daughter married and moved away..she was my shot giver. You got this!!


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

happybleats said:


> Good job!! And be sure to do a complete round of antibiotics . Penicillin is great for this 1 cc per 20 pounds sub q 2 times a day unless you have long acting Penicillin then once a day. 5 full days. Always pull back plunger and check for blood. No blood is good to go..see blood..re adjust and try again. Penicillin in the vein can kill a goat, so always check. If your friend can't come that often, make this first shot a lesson cause it will be a skill you will need again. I was so squeamish I couldn't even open a drawer if there were needles in it lol. I had to get over that when my daughter married and moved away..she was my shot giver. You got this!!


Thank you! I have La 200 and just realized that it's not on my antibiotic a list of goat dosages. Our friend is actually going to be staying here for several months so I'll have a shot giver constantly on hand but you're right, I totally need to get over my weirdness. I've only given shots 3 times and two times I accidentally went in one side, out the other and squirted the antibiotic on her fur. So good to know about the blood! I didn't know that, or probably did and then completely forgot. I'm one of those people that read up on everything I possibly could about goats for literal months before I got them thinking I was so prepared, LOL. I've only had them since 9/19 and I'll probably still be learning for another 22, at least.

I want to virtually hug you, thank you!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

To avoid piercing through both sides of your skin tent, try to get that needle angled toward the bottom of your tent a bit more. 

Great work getting that kidding done yourself! Cute kid!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

La 200 is 1 cc per 20 pounds once a day. It stings alot...for stingy meds I make that big tent..insert the needle..pull back to check for blood and then inject...hold that tent and jiggle it around to help dispersed the meds some..less bite


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

farmerA said:


> I'm one of those people that read up on everything I possibly could about goats for literal months before I got them thinking I was so prepared


Haha...yes... we read and read and make notes..then find out , quoting Schultz on Hogan Heros.." I know nothing..nothing" lol


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

The bolus can be used when a doe is open or as a flush if needed. 
But injecting antibiotics is OK.


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

You guys are all so awesome and I appreciate you so much! I finally got a hold of a vet that's way too far to come here unless I want to spend $500 just for her to show up but she said since there is no foul odor and she doesn't have a temperature I probably don't even need to do antibiotics. But I have a syringe loaded and ready to go in case that changes. I'm taking her temperature three times a day and she is a trooper about it which is a huge blessing. Bottle babies are so much better I think when it comes to these kind of things and she was my fourth bottle baby last year. I found a diagram somewhere that shows the tent and angle and I think I feel comfortable doing it.

I made a little single use salve just to see how it would do and made a witch hazel spray with some organic essential oils and her backside looks so much better already in just a few hours. I think the spray has been the best which is 3/4 witch-hazel, 1/4 warm purified water in a 4oz bottle, 8 drops of organic lavender essential oil, 2 drops of tea tree which I was reluctant about but I figured because of the antimicrobial and antibiotic properties that would be good and two drops of lime essential oil. All organic. Lime essential oil used to be used to prevent gangrene and heal open wounds so I figured it definitely wouldn't hurt. I mean maybe sting but wouldn't be bad. Then I added a little squirt of aloe vera gel. It seems to be working like magic. I'm just sharing in case anyone needs to come up with a quick booty spray for a sore girl since I know it works. The salve was similar but in a coconut oil base and one drop of oregano for antibiotic purposes.


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

Oops, I hit post reply to soon.

I wanted to thank you all again so much! I know during kidding season we're all sleep deprived and super busy and I really appreciate everyone taking the time to give me such an amazing advice. I've also put out some very small still wrapped cloves of raw garlic which I have to go see if she's touched and added a little echinacea tea to her water. It was very reassuring to hear from the veterinarian that she didn't think she needed antibiotics after seeing the pictures. I can't even begin to imagine having something like that on my own body but these little girls are troopers. The only thing that seems to be bothering her is she seems to be missing a baby which just breaks my heart. When the kids in the stall next door cry or make any sounds she wants to go see if they're her girl, it seems like, not to anthropomorphize. So sad. But she's an awesome mom and doing great with her little Primrose.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You're doing great and I love the boots spray recipe. I love snd prefer using ess. Oils and herbs with my herd and always amazed on how well they work. Keep up the good work...mamma will be up and going full speed in no time


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Those cattle uterine bolus's can be used on goats- break one in half, soak in warm distilled water or boiled water then gently squirt inside her (especially if you can't go back in)- use a feeding tube to sort of direct it into the uterus. (warm is less shocky to her, but not too hot).


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

happybleats said:


> You're doing great and I love the boots spray recipe. I love snd prefer using ess. Oils and herbs with my herd and always amazed on how well they work. Keep up the good work...mamma will be up and going full speed in no time


Thank you so much! She's fully healed other than some normal postpartum bleeding. I had never seen a goat vagina that looked so bad. It was like a scab on the whole thing. But using that ointment once and the spray several times a day for 3 days basically made the whole scab come off at once and perfect healthy skin was underneath. After 3 days of spraying it I decided it should probably just dry up and I think it ended up working out perfectly. She's eating like a cow and an awesome mom. Thank you guys all so much!


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## farmerA (Sep 4, 2019)

Goats Rock said:


> Those cattle uterine bolus's can be used on goats- break one in half, soak in warm distilled water or boiled water then gently squirt inside her (especially if you can't go back in)- use a feeding tube to sort of direct it into the uterus. (warm is less shocky to her, but not too hot).


I have some on order in case this ever happens again and I'm so grateful to have learned about it. You guys are the best! A friend of mine is expecting kids from 5 does next month for the first time so I'm sharing with her as well since I'll hopefully never need 50 uterine boluses. ♡


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I know what you mean about using 50 cow bolus's. But, it is cheap insurance!


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Banamine is rx only. And ask for a whole bottle not just a few doses. It is not expensive by the bottle but can get pricey per shot. It is a great med to have on hand. 

Also... we use biomycin instead of la..... it is the same med just no stinging. .


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