# Still confused about how/what to feed my wethers



## Rift (Sep 6, 2009)

I just don't get it. I have 3 wethers, a 1 1/2 yo, a 2 1/2 yo and a 3 3 1/2 yo. They appear to be healthy and sound. I have tried minerals and they don't touch them, but they will lick off salt and/or mineral blocks. They really only have been fed grass hay and occasional alfalfa thrown in. They have an acre pasture that they graze and walks and overnight trips through the forest every one or two weeks. 
I have read about nutrition, but I need specifics. I am actually a veterinarian and all the percentages you quote mean nothing to me. Are you talking about pelleted food or what? I actually am terrified of urethral blockage from calculi since I see it with felines routinely. Recently, a client who has had blocked goats in the past said only feed grass hay and a Noble Goat! (in the silver bag)
All the goats eat and push each other out of the way while eating so I don't understand how I can control what and how much..
Feeling a little dumb and careless and hope I haven't done irreversible damage.


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

I have had goats for only a couple years. It's a hobby for me. I lost one to calculi, and have five now.

Even if I understood all the % stuff, I couldn't manage their feed. I have to feed hay that I buy where I can get it, or pellets without much info on them from IFA, and they eat what they want from around the yard.

Right now they're eating alfalfa hay just because that's all I can get now. So I cross my fingers. 

When someone comes out with Purina Goat Chow mix I won't be able to afford it anyway. 

For 6000 years no one knew what % were and they raised goats anyway. So I invite you to relax and enjoy your goats in ignorance like me and 5 million Bedouins. ;-) 

But now that you have me thinking about it, I have been drinking lemonade since I had my kidney stones, and I am ignorantly thinking that it has been keeping more at bey. Perhaps I ought to plant a lemon tree and share with the goats.


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

I also have to buy my hay where I can get it.
Can not afford to buy all the hay at once. A bale here
and a bale there. So paying for a analisis of the hay
would not be feasible.

I am getting to where I can look at the bale and see
that they will or will not eat it. 
They also get minerals free choice. And go for walks
3 or 4 times a week. Browsing along the way.

I have heard that goats do not like minerals. They
like the salt in the minerals. And get the minerals while eating
the salt. If there is less salt they eat more to get more
of the salt. If there is a high content of the salt in the 
minerals they eat less of them. Soooo! If you have a salt
block out they will prefer to eat it rather than the minerals.


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## imported_ashley (Jun 9, 2011)

I have to agree...i have literally months of experience raising goats...  Farmers raise them in Saudi Arabia and other areas of the far east, and I am not sure that they worry about the exact portions of minerals and vitamins and they seem to do okay... So, ignorance is bliss.. I have given mine a variety of food sources and they eat what they need/want, along with trace mineral/salt/selenium and baking soda, which I am told that they will eat when they need it, and only when they need it. As long as they look healthy and have meat on their bones, and are on a good parasite prevention/vaccination program, I would think they would be okay. Like any other animal, no matter how hard you try to provide the optimum environment, they may die or become sick...all you can do is the best you can with what you have to work with and hope for the best.


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## feederseaters (Nov 8, 2009)

I will not discount all of the hard work that came along with figuring out what the proper diet for a whether is. I have never really kept close track on percentages either. I find it very overwhelming for the type of lifestyle my goats and I enjoy.

This is what I do:
My boys get browse as often as possible. Pastural life is the way to go but hard to do when your very busy or in mid winter. When they can't browse, they get hay. Nothing fancy...just hay. I don't get poor quality hay, but I don't spend top dollar either.

When I shop for grain I look for the 2:1 ratio Calcium/phos. Its not easy to find but I try. If I can't find it, they get corn. I wish I could afford Corn/Oats/Barley/Sunflower seed but that is just a dream. Minerals are offered in block form and as a loose choice option.

They get grain or corn when they work, train or if its SUPER cold out. THATS IT.

I put vinegar in their daily drinking water and am considering a monthy Ammonium Chloride dose. I haven't made a decision on that yet though.

I have never had an instance of UC in my home herd <knock on wood>. I wish I could follow (or afford to follow) all the percentage work, but its not in my cards yet. Maybe Someday


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## feederseaters (Nov 8, 2009)

Just to clarify, I have never read the book "Diet for Wethers". I think If I actually read the book, I may have a clearer view on how or why it works. I understand it is very informative. I would suggest reading it and deciding for yourself. I have it on my Xmas list...AGAIN this year. If I find it in my stocking, then I may repost an opinion on the subject.
Good Luck


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## rtdoyer (May 6, 2010)

My 2 cents:

We have goats of all ages (4 months to 6 years). We feed alfalfa and grain to the goats under 1 year and then grass hay to the boys over 1 year. All goats have about 4 acres of grass/weed pasture to browse on. We have salt blocks by the water and then throw out a mineral block for about 30 minutes on the weekends. My husband bought the supplies to make a mineral feeder, but the bad weather has switched around our priorities.

I purchased the book, "Diet for Whethers" and was very overwhelmed at first with all the numbers. I skimmed and was easily frustrated with how complex it seemed. After our first 3 day pack goat trip in September I happened to be looking at the book again and it had some great suggestions besides just the number part (ratios). I would recommend reading the book even if you know you can't get all the numbers down within your herd.

We did lose one fiver year old goat to stones this summer. My only thoughts are that he was only with us for about 3 months. We stuck to the diet above (grass hay) while we had him so I'm not positive that our diet contributed to his stones. When our mineral feeder is built we will explore adding ammonium chloride to the mix.

Tonia


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## Saltlick (Jun 12, 2011)

I know I worry about it too and I hear different things from different people. For the most part I am sticking to grass hay and using some beet pulp and a little grain here and there. I just bought some alfalfa for the 7 month old and give him a little of that (along with grass hay) for some extra nutrients. My big guy, who is almost 4 years, lost weight and I'm not sure why (he was under the care of the place he was boarded at and I just moved him and get to see him daily now). So now I'm trying to get weight back on him and of course worried about causing UC. I'm giving him orchard grass hay, a little barley hay here and there. He is also getting beet pulp with apple cider vinegar, black oil sunflower seeds, a tiny bit of Top Goat (grain), handful of grass pellets, a few peanuts and a pinch of ammonium chloride all mixed together. I hope it works and I'm not doing any damage. Since I don't have a pasture and browse for them I'm not sure what else to do.

I also leave out some loose salt/minerals for them, and they eat it here and there when they feel like it. I've found they don't use the salt bricks.


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

Goats who are on forage naturally will balance their own diets. The problem comes when they are only given acess to stuff we give them, and it's not balanced. That's where you need to know percentages. If we all lived off the land with bedouins and goats we wouldn't have to worry.


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## Saltlick (Jun 12, 2011)

I know  Well, if the economy gets any worse we may have to live like that and then they'll get all the browse they want. I do take them out on walks and sometimes just go sit in a field with them and let them browse, it's just not a daily occurrence.


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

Nutrition is a very confusing subject. I studied animal nutrition under Lon Lewis who taught a million years ago whose specialty was animal nutrition. Even vets, unless they specialize in it, get very little education on animal nutrition compared to the rest of their education. Unfortunately, a lot of the percentage stuff is almost impossible to make work in the real world without weighing every mouthful they eat.

Here's as close to the bottom line as I can get it:
Keep protein under 14% for adults. THat means orchard grass timothy or local pasture grass hays and no legumes, unless they are poor quality and not dairy quality.

Always feed babies up to one year or so a grass hay and a legume hay and some grain. This will balance your feed automatically and you won't have to concern yourself with percentages. After a year start to taper them off of both legume and grain based on their body condition score.

Keep your calhos ratio in your minerals as close to 2:1 Cal to phos as possible. 

Don't feed grain or dairy quality legume hay to adult wethers unless they are working really hard.

Use the feed pyramid in Diet For Wethers to decide if your goats need more nutrition than they are getting and what to supply if they seem to need more of something. Also, study your body condition score on each goat. Also in Diet For Wethers.

THis is as basic as I can get it and you will avoid most of the pitfalls by following these rules. I am available for consults on specific problems. But most questions can be answered by reading the book. At least I hope so. That was the plan when I wrote it.


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## imported_ashley (Jun 9, 2011)

I am told that purina goat chow is a "complete feed" and can be served in an all-u-can-eat buffet for the little ones. True or false? They sure like it, and still eat alot of hay and all of the branches/mis. other snacks I provide and i've been keeping it in front of them since weaning off of milk at 4 months. It seems to be balanced and close to what the practical goatpacking book recommends, in my novice opinion. I also keep calf manna out for them and they nibble at that. Weight wise, they are just fine. Is this an okay practice?


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## Saltlick (Jun 12, 2011)

Thank you!


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

Up to 12 months you wil be fine, after that you can start cutting back alittle and give them more grass hay. Just feed according to body condition after 12 months.


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## Jake Levi (Jun 9, 2011)

Ref to crowding at feeding time, thats goats, but, to alleviate it in the new shed I am putting in a manger that the bottom facing the goats is plywood withV/U cutouts for the neck each about ten inches from the next cut out, they put their necks down and eat without touching the goat next to them, this is a copy of the neighbors and it works great for them.

I am feeding grass hay and some alfalfa through the winter but none of mine will be yearlings until Feb and thats a doe, by spring they will all be off the Alfalfa but will be getting some grain, in the manger. It has a solid floor.


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## Bwana Ken (May 9, 2011)

Wow, this is more complicated than feeding a human baby!

First off, I'm going to buy Carolyn's book!

Second, I hope to be able to stop by to visit Carolyn the next time I drop in on my sister-in-law, who also lives in Estacada, and pick her brain for all things _goatish_. Ditto for Rex: my wife and I go deer hunting just up the road from him (small world, eh?).

We weaned our goats at 4 months, and castrated them at 5 months. They are now 9 months old.

We currently feed them 2x a day with grass hay, supplemented with 2 cups each of COB, 1 cup each of alfalfa pellets (less waste than alfalfa hay), and Purina goat minerals. Their weight looks good, but I'm afraid I might be overfeeding them -- or at least have the balance wrong.

In addition to the above feeding, we also take them out on a 30 - 60 minute walk every day so they can free browse. They seem to love Ponderosa pine needles and apple leaves the best, although recently they've really been pigging out on windfall apples (lots of wild apple trees around here). Earlier in the summer they ate vetch whenever they came across it, but I tried to make sure they didn't eat too much.

With winter coming on we will continue to take them on walks, but the browse is going to be pretty thin so they'll be even more dependent upon getting their nutrition from what we provide. I want to make sure we're doing it right!

Thanks to all. Lots of good - if somewhat confusing - info in this thread.

Ken


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## Saltlick (Jun 12, 2011)

I have two of her books, they're great. I need to study the Diet for Wethers book more, I got a little overwhelmed by it. But necessary information and I'm thankful she wrote those books!


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## Mt.goatguy (Dec 2, 2011)

It is nice to not feel alone... as I too feel terrified of urethral blockage from calculi.

My goats are now 6 months old and I have become very attached to them in the 3 months we have been together.

I am going to add free access to baking soda and also start top dressing with 1/2 tsp. ammonium chloride on the 1 cup of COB that he gets along with free access to a mixed hay, winter browse most days and lots of exercise. 

Yesterday we went on a hard fast hike and I was delighted to see him drinking out of a pine needle covered low spot in the trail (it was crazy warm yesterday here for this time of year) the water in their heated bucket goes down but I wish they would drink more than they seem to be.

Bottom line based on what others here are saying I am going to just relax about it all and let nature takes it's course.

I am looking forward to looking back on these days in the years to come when I am worried about him being too old to still pack.


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## stinky (Jun 6, 2009)

I don't really know that much, but what I've learned, I've picked up from 4H seminars.

One of the big things that I've heard is goat feed for a goat, horse feed for a horse and pig feed for a pig and etc.

I hear people (that often have better looking goats than mine, but paid 5X as much as I did, and I can tell that they are the ones feed them, and not my lazy kids) talk about ratios and percentages in their feed. When you go to the store and buy any of the 10 dif brands of feed out there...who do you think makes up the ratios? The guys in the mail room or shipping department w/a dart board or maybe somebody that read about the Atkins diet...NO, that've got somebody who is possibly a BS (you know what that is), MS (more of the same) or more likely a PHD (piled higher and deeper) in Animal Something or Other dreaming up ratios and the reputation and livelyhood of the company depends on what they come up with (they put a great deal of effort and research into the matter). Long story short, you aren't going to really be able to beat them...or free range.

There is so much mis-information out there....such as Alfalfa is bad, and that you need to feed your goat X-percentage of grain (goats aren't designed to eat grain) and this "super-feed." If you want to supplement just buy the stuff for a goat...assuming that it doesn't have soy (GMO is bad) and animal by-products in it and whatever you find to be detestable for a goat's diet.

I once bought some beautiful Alfalfa from a lady that told me that she didn't feed it to her horses as it made them hyper or frisky (I don't remember her exact words). BUT, BUT, but she was still feeding the horse grain every day...can you say S-T-U-P-I-D. The grain was doing it, not the alfalfa.

A pig, horse, and a goat systems are not designed to eat grain...they are designed to free range and that is all that ALL they really need. Just like humans...w/a GOOD/BALANCED diet you don't need vitamins. I eat vitamins because my diet is often lacking, which is why we supplement w/supplements

We try to supplement in order to give them a better diet (athletes and those really diet conscious do the same thing...you'll note that one of the big crazes right now is "Free-Range" beef, eggs and what not)...inherent quality and nutrition.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Feeding goats is simple. For 20 years we have feed the same way with few issues. We feed dairy quality alfalfa, but any decent alfalfa will do. You can look, smell and feel if its good. But thats for our milking does. Watch for bloat in younger animals freshely weened and does within 2 weeks of kidding. For a pack wether, Id stick to a good grass or grass alfalfa mix after 1 year old or maybe even a weedy alfalfa. No foxtail or cheet or thistle. But weeds like muster seed they love! No grain for wethers after 1 year old cept for fun times or an occasional treat. Peanuts in the shells are a HUGE success for treats in place of grain though and can be used as incentives... bribes  Give them free choice LOOSE minerals. They can not get enough off of blocks without grinding their teeth down. Some free choice baking soda is also good. Keeps the tummy working right and also cleans up a does milk flavor... or so Ive heard. We milk at the correct times so have no way to test this.

NOW id like to inject that these are my practices and other I am sure differ. If you work your goat hard, then you will need to give it more protein. Either in the way of alfalfa or grain. A great grass hay has maybe 12% protein while a dairy quality alfalfa has around 24%. A normal alfalfa would be around 18%-20%. So if you do a good grass, then feel free to to give a 14% grain. If you do a grass / alfalfa mix of say 16-18% protein, give a wet or dry cob in place of grain. You dont have to have hay tested to get a good idea of its quality and you can always look up the average protein % of any type of hay. But hands on is best. Cut open a few random bales or bale. Smell for mold or rot, look for discolor and dirt. Grab a hand full and fell it. Is it more soft then hard. Does it poke your hands or are you able to ball it up. And NEVER EVER buy from someone who uses ruminant manure to fertilize or lets cattle winter on the field. To many things can be passed on to your goats. Johnes being highly possible do to its 85% infection rate in dairy cattle in the USA.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

One thing to remember is that Uranal blockage also has a genetic component. you can not protect your animals with diet from a genetic defect.

remember that goats were wild once. they were wild longer than they have been domesticated. I so i feed like my goats were wild. 
I let them loose weight in the winter and gain in the summer. i do not feed pellets or possessed grain, only whole grains and only when i catch them. (milking goats are another story so this post is only for my packers)


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## joecool911 (Jul 3, 2010)

sweetgoatmama said:


> Nutrition is a very confusing subject. I studied animal nutrition under Lon Lewis who taught a million years ago whose specialty was animal nutrition. Even vets, unless they specialize in it, get very little education on animal nutrition compared to the rest of their education. Unfortunately, a lot of the percentage stuff is almost impossible to make work in the real world without weighing every mouthful they eat.
> 
> Here's as close to the bottom line as I can get it:
> Keep protein under 14% for adults. THat means orchard grass timothy or local pasture grass hays and no legumes, unless they are poor quality and not dairy quality.
> ...


Will they waste less hay when they don't have bottles, grain and alphalfa? Mine currently leave the more stemmy stuff. Just eat the tops and seeds. Eastern Oregon hay. 
When you say "some grain", what are you referring to? Oats?


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

no - wasting hay is something all goats do no matter what other feed you offer.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ya San has it with the waste BUT a more leafy 4th cutting is less wasteful then a first cutting. Though first cuttings tend to be best over all other cuttings as it draws the goodness outta the ground first and each cutting after gets less and less. Or at least this is my understanding after taking to a group of growers. Also, with the late cuttings you dont get nearly the mount of stems which is where a large portion of the fiber is in hay. The more fiber, the longer it takes to digest. The longer to digest, the more nutrients your goat gets outta the hay. The only advice I can give for a feeder is make it comfortable. If they are getting pushed outta the way, they will learn to dart in, get a mouthful and pull it out to eat it. Granted, a bossy herd boss can mess up any feeder.

As for the grain, I am talking about a pelleted all stock grain or what is called a dairy ration. It has pellets and cracked corn with molasses. Typically has 12-14% protein. While a boar goat grower will have 16-18% if I am not mistaken. A wet / dry cob will have about 9%. We often mix the wet cob with the dairy ration for the does who dont like the ration but love the cob.


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