# Horned Goats and showing.



## MoonShadow

Does anyone know of any groups/organizations where you can show goats with horns(I live in Washington state). 
I would really like to eventually show horned goats. I have shown De-horned goats before and though I didn't enjoy it very much(it was my first time showing goats so that was probably it :underchair I would like to do it again in future. But I plan on adding some horned goats to my herd and would love to show them also if possible.

hlala::lovey:


----------



## goathiker

If you are talking about dairy goats they must be dehorned no matter what. There are no shows for horned dairies.


----------



## SalteyLove

It really depends on the breed. Some local town or county fairs may allow horns for any breed but in most cases only meat breed goats would be allowed to have horns.


----------



## crazygoatlady_inthemaking

Market goats can be horned or dehorned but the wethers are preferred to be dehorned because if the wethers have horns it makes them look much older than they really are.


----------



## margaret

What breed?
If dairy, then definitely not.


----------



## toth boer goats

All great questions, we will need to know what breed and class, to be able to help.


----------



## MoonShadow

Yes They would be Dairy Goats, Nigerian dwarf to be more specific.


----------



## Damfino

I really and truly wish ADGA (and any other dairy goat organizations) would take disbudding out of their rulebooks and leave that up to the discretion of the owners. I wish that these associations would permit the organizers of individual shows the freedom to allow horns or not. I don't understand why it's ADGA's concern if a certain state fair wants to allow horned dairy goats to show.


----------



## Greybird

I can see both sides, but in this lawsuit-happy society it's a certainty that the owners as well as the sponsoring organization would be found liable if a horned goat managed to hurt someone at one of their shows.


----------



## Damfino

If horns are such a liability at shows, then how do the meat and fiber goat associations get away with them? I know Boers have small horns, but Kikos and fiber goats have huge, wide-spanning racks. 

And what about the cattle? Our state fair has huge Texas Longhorns and the public is able to get right up to the pens. A lot of the Zebu have horns too, and they aren't even in pens--they're just tied along the sides of the barn. 

So while I appreciate that horns *could* be a liability to the public, they don't seem to present enough of a problem to ban them on other types of livestock at shows. Sometimes horns are even required as a part of a breed standard.


----------



## Ranger1

Damfino said:


> I really and truly wish ADGA (and any other dairy goat organizations) would take disbudding out of their rulebooks and leave that up to the discretion of the owners. I wish that these associations would permit the organizers of individual shows the freedom to allow horns or not. I don't understand why it's ADGA's concern if a certain state fair wants to allow horned dairy goats to show.


I agree. Although I disbud my goats, I don't think anyone wanting to show should be required to do so.


----------



## margaret

Horns could be dangerous in the show ring to the exhibitors and judges. I have a wether with horns and he almost killed my smaller buck. I think horns are dangerous on dairy goats and I'm very glad ADGA doesn't allow horned goats.
And they look MUCH better without them.


----------



## margaret

You can band horns if you really want to show those goats.


----------



## COgoatLover25

margaret said:


> Horns could be dangerous in the show ring to the exhibitors and judges. I have a wether with horns and he almost killed my smaller buck. I think horns are dangerous on dairy goats and I'm very glad ADGA doesn't allow horned goats.
> And they look MUCH better without them.


I agree that the dairy goats look better without horns IMO 

As for the no horns rule, there's always going to be people who don't like the rules, ADGA does its best to make things better for the animals and people involved. Whether other associations make horns ok, I don't think ADGA should be discussed with those. Of course I do primarily disbud my dairy goats at a young age to allow for them to be shown later in life but also, another reason I do it is to possibly give the animal a better chance at life. When the baby goats are disbudded at a very young age (1-2wks.) sure, they feel a few minutes, at the most, an hour or so of pain but I've had goats butting heads 10-20 minutes later! It's a lot better than them going to a new home with horns and their new owners deciding they either don't want them or they're going to saw their horns off or have them dehorned (both very painful and stressful to the goat). This is just my opinion, and what I feel works better for my own goats. Plus, as Margaret said, goats with horns can certainly be a danger to those without.


----------



## margaret

My horned wether is so annoying. He's constantly hurting other goats, getting his head stuck in fences and he's almost impossible to handle because even if he isn't trying to he can easily hurt his handler. Thankfully someone is buying him soon to eat him:yum:
For a couple years I had Boers, and they were horned. Their horns were sharp, and the big doe was evil:lol:
I'm having to deal with banding right now, for a yearling and a 2015 kid who each ended up with a small horn and I never got around to re-burning. Not fun!


----------



## Damfino

And I disagree--dairy goats look MUCH better WITH horns. They look kind of sadly mutilated and unadorned with God's naturally-bestowed crowning glory removed. Imitation goats is what they look like to me. Beauty to one person is desecration to another.

So much for personal opinions.  

That said, do I disbud my girls? Yes. (Boys, no.) However much it galls me, in order to conform to show standards and allow my girls to be sold into hornless dairy herds, I have to comply with ADGA rules. Does it feel like a sin? Yes. It's hard when the entire culture of convenience runs smack up against one's sense of aesthetics AND one's conscience.


----------



## margaret

I suppose everyone is entitled to their own opinion...And I think we're slightly off topic.


----------



## COgoatLover25

Personal opinions are of course different otherwise they wouldn't be personal. But to try to force your opinion on another and make fun of or judge other people's opinions is a little out of hand  I think we can all agree to disagree because what works for ones herd may or may not work for another's.


----------



## KW Farms

Nigerians can't be shown in ADGA, AGS, or NDGA shows if they have horns. Now, there might be some sort of smaller show or at certain fairs that may allow it, but that wouldn't be the norm. If you're wanting to show, you'll want disbudded goats.


----------



## margaret

Maybe some 4-H shows would allow them? Or small animal shows that aren't sanctioned by a dairy goat association.


----------



## Damfino

COgoatLover25 said:


> Personal opinions are of course different otherwise they wouldn't be personal. But to try to force your opinion on another and make fun of or judge other people's opinions is a little out of hand  I think we can all agree to disagree because what works for ones herd may or may not work for another's.


^ Yeah, this is what I dislike about ADGA's stance. They have forced their personal opinion on everyone, and this is what really irks me. This is why I think ADGA needs to stay out of the horn debate and let the individual breeders and show committees decide for themselves. We can't "agree to disagree" if one powerful organization forces their opinion on everyone else.


----------



## margaret

ADGA isn't forcing their opinion on anyone, it's simply a standard they have set. You can have and register horned goats. You just can't show them. The reason for doing this is probably to protect judges, exhibitors and other goats.
And you don't have to show your goats if it's a sin to disbud them


----------



## Damfino

I know I don't have to show my goats, but I do have to sell them sometimes, and the ADGA rules definitely cause an unfair prejudice against horns in the dairy market. In effect, they are definitely forcing their opinion on others and there's no real way to deny this. I never want any dairy girl of mine to go to slaughter for no reason except that someone doesn't like horns, and as long as ADGA keeps their "no horns" stance for the show ring, I believe fears and misconceptions about horns will continue to abound in the dairy world. 

If ADGA fears for its judges, then perhaps they should talk to the fiber goat and Jacobs sheep judges and see how they manage to avoid injury. Somehow it must be possible to show horned animals safely since others do it. Also, why not allow horns but require them to be sheathed, tipped, wrapped, or whatever? There are ways to make horns safer for show without having to permanently alter the animal.


----------



## COgoatLover25

I think it's pretty clear that it's just the way it's going to be like it or not, if you want to show then disbud, if not , don't disbud. I doubt ADGA will ever change, and in all honesty, I hope it doesn't


----------



## KW Farms

It's a safety issue. The horns on a Boer curve back and are much safer than the way a dairy goat's horns are pointed more upright. Boers have thick skin and muscle to protect them. Dairy goats are thin skinned and refined. Picture a doe with horns getting loose in the ring, butting a doe without horns or standing in line and butting a doe from behind, in the udder. Boers don't have huge, full udders in the show ring, dairy goats do. Another thing, when you're walking a doe with horns in a show collar, your hand is right behind the horns and all they have to do is tilt their head back to jab you. If you've been around and handled dairy goats in the show ring, you should understand why ADGA has this rule. I only have a couple horned goats left in my herd and nearly every time I handle them, I get jabbed somewhere at some point. I personally would rather not show dairy goats in a ring with horned. 

ADGA isn't forcing their stance on anyone. If you like horned goats, you're welcome to keep and register them, but when you're in the show ring in an ADGA sanctioned show, a simple "no horns rule" is very reasonable, in my opinion. Again, it all comes down to safety.


----------



## Damfino

COgoatLover25 said:


> I think it's pretty clear that it's just the way it's going to be like it or not, if you want to show then disbud, if not , don't disbud. I doubt ADGA will ever change, and in all honesty, I hope it doesn't


Wait, I thought you said "agree to disagree" and "it's wrong to force your opinions on others." Yet you support ADGA in forcing your opinion on horn advocates like myself. Can't have it both ways. 

And yes, ADGA's position is one of force because if my district wanted to hold a dairy goat show that allowed horns, ADGA would not sanction it despite the opinions of the people actually running the show and competing in it. If the show committee and the competitors are fine with horns, why should ADGA put the kibosh on it? If safety is the only concern, what's wrong with requiring horns to be tipped or sheathed? No one has answered that question yet.

Truth be told, hornless goats are a very recent and almost exclusively American invention. Humans and dairy goats coexisted for several thousand years before disbudding came into fashion in the U.S. in the mid-20th century. I believe that in Europe horns are not only allowed, but are judged as part of breed standard at their dairy goat shows. Some European countries even ban disbudding. Since most of our dairy breeds are European in origin, it seems we should strive to conform to European breed standards, which of course include horns. We should also ask, "How do _they_ show horned dairy goats safely?" You never know--we might learn something.


----------



## COgoatLover25

Yes, I support ADGA in its position. I support my opinion but I'm not downing yours, saying its wrong or anything else. Quite frankly , I've had goats with horns and loved them just as much as the ones without, but whoever dealt with those goats always usually had some bruising to show for it. ADGA isn't forcing you to show your goats are they? So you don't have to disbud your goats at all as long as you're fine with not showing them. Again, it is a personal decision of what YOU want for YOUR herd, like anything else in the world you have decide which is more important to you. Not everything is fair to all people, you can please some of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.


Edit: it'd be cool if all handlers of goats knew about goats, and how to handle them properly, avoiding injury to any people involved. But the truth of the matter is, not all people have what we call "common sense" and will get themselves or others injured even with just a small animal such as a goat, and I think adding horned goats to the mix may compound the problem.


----------



## CritterCarnival

If you don't want to "be forced" to disbud your goats to sell them, just run with a line that is naturally polled...easy-peasy, then you won't have to sin to raise goats.

I am absolutely ecstatic that ADGA doesn't allow horns. You ever been to a show? You ever seen how some of those goats act in the ring? No thank you, I would NOT show if horns were allowed.

And even the ones that will never show, they are all disbudded on our farm. We've had a couple horned goats, and we were always sporting bruises on our arms, legs and faces from being hit with horns. Not even being aggressive, just tilting their head to get a scritch under the chin can produce bruises by accident. And friends visiting, if the scritcher isn't used to watching out for horns...I hate to have to tell the kids "no, you can't pet the pretty goat".

/shrug...to each their own, but please quit bashing ADGA rules. Either follow them, or don't, but please just quit.

ETA: Besides, it's not just ADGA that requires no horns to show. AGS, NDGA, MDGA, et al., require NO HORNS.


----------



## margaret

CritterCarnival said:


> If you don't want to "be forced" to disbud your goats to sell them, just run with a line that is naturally polled...easy-peasy, then you won't have to sin to raise goats.
> 
> I am absolutely ecstatic that ADGA doesn't allow horns. You ever been to a show? You ever seen how some of those goats act in the ring? No thank you, I would NOT show if horns were allowed.
> 
> And even the ones that will never show, they are all disbudded on our farm. We've had a couple horned goats, and we were always sporting bruises on our arms, legs and faces from being hit with horns. Not even being aggressive, just tilting their head to get a scritch under the chin can produce bruises by accident. And friends visiting, if the scritcher isn't used to watching out for horns...I hate to have to tell the kids "no, you can't pet the pretty goat".
> 
> /shrug...to each their own, but please quit bashing ADGA rules. Either follow them, or don't, but please just quit.
> 
> ETA: Besides, it's not just ADGA that requires no horns to show. AGS, NDGA, MDGA, et al., require NO HORNS.


I try to have mine pretty well trained in time for the shows, but I have showed some friend's goats that are DEVILS in the ring!
Particularly Nigerian kids. If those goats had horns, I think we would see a lot of injury in the show ring. Dairy goats horns can be very sharp and dangerous. Even the thought of a well behaved horned goat in the ring makes me shudder. They can easily hurt you with out trying.


----------



## Damfino

@ COgoatlover said:

_"So you don't have to disbud your goats at all as long as you're fine with not showing them."_

Ugh. This is exactly what I'm talking about. That's not "live and let live." That's "My way or the highway." I'm not ok with not showing my goats. I love showing. It's fun, it's important for meeting other goat owners and potential buyers, it's very important for education and for seeing how your breeding program stacks up, and it's something every goat owner should have the opportunity to do with their animals. To exclude horns could even be a way of excluding outstanding genetics from competition, which is a crying shame to the entire industry.

The rule is also is much further-reaching than just showing vs. horns. If I leave horns on my girls, it means I can never sell them to anyone who might ever want to show. That severely limits the number and type of buyers I can court in a market that is already difficult. That's obviously not an option. Therefore I am forced by show rules to conform to a practice I find unethical even if I do not show myself.

As for your statement about dehorning goats because people are stupid, I cringe at the idea that we must disfigure any animal simply because humans with no common sense will endanger themselves. If people have no common sense, then they need to learn some--not alter the animal! I don't think cats should be de-clawed either. If you don't like cat claws, then maybe you shouldn't get a cat. We don't remove teeth from dogs (even show dogs!) just because sometimes people (even judges!) get bitten. To me it's the exact same principle.


----------



## Damfino

@ CritterCarnival,

_"If you don't want to "be forced" to disbud your goats to sell them, just run with a line that is naturally polled...easy-peasy."_

Unfortunately not so easy. Polled genetics are not a sure thing. I actually do have some polled genetics in my herd, but it has yet to be expressed. All the kids and grandkids from my polled doe have come out horned. Unfortunately, we had to cull her for several reasons, one of which was that she became so mean when she matured that she was endangering my other goats. So much for my polled goat being safer! :/

I also don't appreciate you saying that I am "bashing" ADGA's rules. I hope I have not been rude in any of my posts because that was never my intention. It's perfectly ok for me to disagree with ADGA, even strongly, but that does not mean I am trying to be a jerk about it. Heck, one of these days I may even get up the gumption to try to change those rules! 

I still think we Americans are terrible wimps if we cannot deal with our goats unless we remove their horns. I'd like to ask again: How do they deal with all the horns at dairy goat shows in Europe? Disbudding is actually outlawed as a cruel practice in some European countries. I've spoken to one or two Europeans about this and they think we are weird and terribly misguided about horns. I'd love to hear what ADGA defenders have to say about this, because after seeing how they do things in the old country, I'm almost convinced that ADGA only requires horn removal for cosmetic reasons that have nothing whatever to do with safety.

Another reason I feel this way is because I was told over and over before we got goats that it would be wrong and dangerous for us to leave horns on goats, and especially to leave horns on some but not on others. So far I've found that not one of those dire predictions of gloom and doom has proved true. So far the only goat we've had that was too mean to keep safely with babies and pregnant mamas was the polled doe!


----------



## Damfino

margaret said:


> I try to have mine pretty well trained in time for the shows, but I have showed some friend's goats that are DEVILS in the ring!
> Particularly Nigerian kids. If those goats had horns, I think we would see a lot of injury in the show ring. Dairy goats horns can be very sharp and dangerous. Even the thought of a well behaved horned goat in the ring makes me shudder. They can easily hurt you with out trying.


Any goat that is badly behaved ought not to be in the show ring until it is trained. It's the same for any animal at a show, whether it be a goat, a llama, a horse, a dog, or a cow. If an animals exhibits dangerous behavior, it ought to be removed from the ring and perhaps even from the show grounds entirely.

But if we must show ill-mannered goats at shows, why not wrap or sheath the horns? There are several good ways to do this, but no one has yet bothered to answer this question that I have now posed several times.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

Damfino said:


> Any goat that is badly behaved ought not to be in the show ring until it is trained. It's the same for any animal at a show, whether it be a goat, a llama, a horse, a dog, or a cow. If an animals exhibits dangerous behavior, it ought to be removed from the ring and perhaps even from the show grounds entirely.
> 
> But if we must show ill-mannered goats at shows, why not wrap or sheath the horns? There are several good ways to do this, but no one has yet had the courtesy to answer this question that I have now posed several times.


Even a goat that is very well behaved can act like a butt head in the ring! I know a 4-H'er that was actually bashed in the ring by the judge saying she should work with her goat or not bring it to the fair... Truth be told, she worked with that goat DAILY for WEEKS and the doe was very well behaved, and walked and set up like a charm, she just got nervous at the fair and did a 360, I've had my goats do the same thing.. 
So even a well trained animal can act up in the show ring


----------



## margaret

My goodness you're stubborn Damfino. I'll answer you tomorrow, right now I have a splitting headache and I need to go to bed.


----------



## goathiker

Everyone has done well keeping this nice, let's continue that please. 

Here are my thoughts...

I don't want to lose the right to own disbudded goats. I have a chronic issue and I simply don't have the balance to ensure I won't fall right in the middle of them. I recently had to sell my big boys as they were knocking me down... 

I feel that everyone should be allowed to do as they please. America was founded on freedom to be as you choose, to strive for your goals, not the law of majority...Contrary to what everyone seems to think nowadays, we live in a Democratic Republic; NOT a Democracy...

All the issues brought up in this thread could be overcome by requiring the horned goats be shown in halters...


----------



## Damfino

J.O.Y. Farm said:


> Even a goat that is very well behaved can act like a butt head in the ring!


Oh boy, do I know that! :lol:

We've all had "bad goat days!" But the point stands: an animal that is behaving in such a way as to endanger others or to disrupt the show should be removed from the ring. Maybe it's just not his/her day. There will be another show.

I've been asked to judge a few goat shows myself (4-H packgoat project), and there was a very ill-behaved goat in the ring during one of my conformation classes. Since we have been conditioned to forebear with goats that act up in the ring, I felt uncomfortable asking the boy to remove his animal. In hindsight, while it might have embarrassed the poor kid, it probably would have been more courteous for me to ask him to remove himself for the sake of the others who could not walk their goats properly because his goat kept stopping up the whole line.

I find it interesting that the 4-H packgoat project kids are allowed to show with or without horns. Some of the goats are fiber animals and always have horns (rather more dangerous ones than the dairy breeds because of their span and the way they often point up instead of back). Yet no one questions this mixed horn set-up nor seems to have an issue with it.


----------



## Damfino

margaret said:


> My goodness you're stubborn Damfino. I'll answer you tomorrow, right now I have a splitting headache and I need to go to bed.


:lol: :butting:

It must be the goat in me!

In all seriousness, I hope no one takes anything I say personally because it is not meant that way--ever. I love to debate things (almost anything, really). Believe it or not, I've even debated the virtues of disbudding! I like to see any and all sides of an issue and draw my own conclusions. I also think people should do exactly as they see fit for their own herd. I don't want anyone to think I judge them for disbudding. My qualms with disbudding are mine alone and I do not think one bit less of people who advocate it. I just wish there were a bit more openness in dairy goat associations and their shows.


----------



## lottsagoats1

Up here in Maine 4H dairy and ADGA dairy can not have horns, nor can any of the ADGA pointed shows. I know in some other areas, smaller, non-ADGA pointed shows allow dairy goats to have horns. I've seen posts on other boards from people who have shown their horned dairy does in small, non-pointed shows.


----------



## lottsagoats1

I have a huge, deep scar on my upper thigh from a goat horn-totally accidental but disfiguing just the same. I shudder to think what would have happened if one of my kids had been there at the time. Horns are right at child eye level. Too scary to have horns around my kids or grandkids. 

Many of my Boers that I sold died as a result of getting their horns stuck in fences and trees. I've seen way to many goats gored by a bullying herdmates horns. Ripped udders destroys a dairy does future, torn abdomens kill the goat. No horns allowed here. If other people want horns, to each their own. I could not live with myself if a child lost an eye to a horn tip if I didn't disbud my goats. Up here, most goats with horns end up at auction when their owners decide they don't want them any more. Hornless goats sell better and faster. The first question potential buyers ask me is if they kids have been disbudded.

They do not have the fencing that we do over here nor do they have all the litigation we have in this country. Comparing livestock husbandry in other countries and the USA is like comparing apples to oranges. They also do not allow farmers to medicate their own animals, a vet has to do it. Some countries don't even have veterinary care for their animals.


----------



## MoonShadow

I have to agree that its a shame that people who have horned goats arent allowed to show them. Somebody needs to start a club thing where people with horned goats can participate in shows. Maybe even have special show horn gards or something kinda like how you need a special show collar/lead. You never know it just might work, then nobody would get left out no matter what there prefrence, or belief. 
Horns can be dangerous yes but i still think everyone should have the chance to show i mean thats what wavers are for right, do at your own risk.


----------



## goathiker

Look at your tagline and start getting people together... This is how this country works. Change minds, offer safety protocols, make a ruckus!!!


----------



## Damfino

lottsagoats1 said:


> I have a huge, deep scar on my upper thigh from a goat horn-totally accidental but disfiguing just the same.


Thigh scars must be all the rage. I've got one too--from a horse that bit me because he was going after the mare I was riding. Apparently one horse length wasn't enough distance for that particular animal. I have a nice hole in my thigh to remember the incident by. I see this as a life lesson that all horses are potentially dangerous and accidents happen even when you think you are taking precautions. What I don't see is a reason to muzzle all horses that come in contact with the public just because some of them bite.

You mention children and horns, but I would say children need to be watched whether goats have horns or not. I don't allow kids to hang around my horses or my goats without close supervision because animals and children are both unpredictable by nature. I'd feel just as terrible as you if one of my goats bashed a kid in the head and cracked their skull--something a goat does not need horns to do! We must never take our goats for granted even if they are disbudded. They are larger and heavier than children and are sometimes unexpectedly prone to aggression or self-defense.



> No horns allowed here. If other people want horns, to each their own.


I agree 100%. Do what's best for you and your situation.



> They [Europeans] do not have the fencing that we do over here nor do they have all the litigation we have in this country. Comparing livestock husbandry in other countries and the USA is like comparing apples to oranges.


Yes and no. Same animals, different culture, but what's wrong with learning from others' culture and experience? Americans are not automatically better at everything by default. If we have a problem with goats getting caught in fences, then we should alter our fences before we alter our goats! There are plenty of good fencing options for people with horned goats, so this is no excuse at all and doesn't apply to the show situation we're discussing anyway.

As for litigation, that is a lawyer problem, not a goat problem! Besides, as I already pointed out, there are many other types of goats and livestock *in the U.S.* for which horns are a part of breed standard. Dairy goats are not automatically more dangerous with their horns than other animals with horns, particularly fiber goats whose horns often point upwards towards people's faces and crotches. Why are fiber goat horns considered manageable at U.S. shows, but not dairy goat horns?


----------



## COgoatLover25

I think what this all really buckles down to is that we live in a real world where no one is perfect. So, there has to be rules. Just like if you don't want to go to jail, you should probably keep the law 

Damfino , I am curious as to how you say that others are forcing their opinions on you when it seems as though that is what you're doing? I mean no offense but I do think it's a lil wrong to say that people are sinning when they disbud their goats because they feel that's what is right for their herd. If you want to start a goat show with goats with horns and take all the liability for anything that happens at that show, I wish you all the luck and hope you succeed. But, as an owner of hornless dairy goats, there is no way I would go to that show, putting my animals in danger.

To the OP, I hope you got some sort of answer out of all this babbling


----------



## Damfino

I have no desire whatsoever to force my opinions on anyone else. I would like there to be freedom for all dairy goats to be able to show with ADGA's blessing, whether they have horns or not. I'm for freedom, not restriction.

I also do not have any desire to force my own conscience on other people. I said already that I do not judge anyone else who disbuds their goats. I never once said that other people are sinning--I said that _*I*_ am sinning. There is a vast difference.

Here is an illustration: For some people it hurts their conscience (i.e. is a sin) to eat meat. For me it is not a sin to eat meat. I do not judge vegetarians for living their conscience--in fact, I encourage them to do so, and I will never try to convince someone that their personal conscience is wrong. If they also do not judge me for eating meat, then we have no conflict and can eat together and have a good time because we have accepted one another.

I have no wish to make anyone feel guilty for disbudding their goats just because I feel guilty about disbudding mine. Nor would I ever push for a world where horn removal was outlawed, nor one where show goats were penalized for having their horns removed. I would prefer to see a world where we coexist and respect one another's views on the issue and do not try to bar one another from fully participating in the wonderful world of goats. Right now I am between a rock and a hard place--do I disbud in violation of my conscience or do I withdraw from the public goat world? As I hope you can see, neither one is a very good option. Both choices make me feel guilty. When I disbud I feel cruel, but if I don't I feel irresponsible. I somewhat assuage the guilt of disbudding my girls by leaving the boys' horns intact, but that doesn't quite erase the feeling that I have violated one of God's beautiful creatures for no better reason than cultural pressure.


----------



## Damfino

COgoatLover25 said:


> If you want to start a goat show with goats with horns and take all the liability for anything that happens at that show, I wish you all the luck and hope you succeed. But, as an owner of hornless dairy goats, there is no way I would go to that show, putting my animals in danger.


What is the point of starting such a show? It won't be recognized by any association and will therefore have about as much importance as taking one's goats to the local high school dance. At least taking your goats to the dance might make the newspaper!

Since you are from Colorado, I'd like to ask if you've ever attended the Weld County Goat Extravaganza? If so, did you feel you or your goats were in danger? I ask this question because I think the folks here stating that they would _never_ take their goats to a show where there were horned goats present are not being entirely honest.

The reason I say this is because anyone who shows very much is going to end up at big shows and/or fairs where it's an all-breed goat show. Fiber, meat, and dairy are all represented. Yes, they show in different rings, BUT (and this is a really big BUT), they share the same facilities for the entire weekend. Your dairy goats will encounter horned fiber and meat goats in the barn aisles and in the wash rack--both much riskier areas than the show ring itself. Two years ago at the WCGE, a lot of horned fiber goats were penned in the dairy goat area because there wasn't room for them to have their own section. If you were there, I doubt you would even have noticed because there was never a problem with it. I know for a fact that these kind of multi-purpose goat shows happen all the time all over the country. Do you avoid them because there are horns in the barn, or now that you think about it, have you actually attended a few of them? If you arrived at the show and realized there were horned fiber and meat goats sharing the venue, would you really pack up and go right back home?


----------



## ksalvagno

Make sure to keep it friendly, keep it fun. Stick to facts. No personal attacks. This is not aimed at any one person. Just a reminder to all.


----------



## Ranger1

Okay, getting to the root of the matter here. If the ADGA wants to have certain rules, so be it. If you don't like them, don't join. I have rules at my house-if you don't want to abide by them, don't come. It is, after all, my house and the ADGA is their property and business. I see where you are coming from, but that's just how things are. If you can come up with some sort of petition thing to try and get them to allow horns, I'd gladly sign it because I think they should allow horns. I don't really know how a person would go about doing that though....


I'd also like to say this.
Yes, horns can be dangerous but I don't think that is really the issue. I think people just don't know how to handle goats that have them. And because they are something that are easily removed, boom, off they come. 
I could say that my horse's head and feet are dangerous because I've been whacked with her head and stepped on with her hooves. Because they are something you obviously can't take off, you learn to deal with it and not get hurt. 
Proper handling will prevent horn injuries. Reminds me off gun control. Guns kill people no more than horns hurt people. It is the person/animal that does it, and the gun or horn is the tool they use. 
Again, I disbud my own goats but like to look at both sides off the issue.


----------



## margaret

Damfino said:


> Any goat that is badly behaved ought not to be in the show ring until it is trained. It's the same for any animal at a show, whether it be a goat, a llama, a horse, a dog, or a cow. If an animals exhibits dangerous behavior, it ought to be removed from the ring and perhaps even from the show grounds entirely.
> 
> But if we must show ill-mannered goats at shows, why not wrap or sheath the horns? There are several good ways to do this, but no one has yet bothered to answer this question that I have now posed several times.


I didn't they were say mean or dangerous, but most breeders who come to shows with 20-30+ goats aren't going to have time to teach their goats how to behave in the ring. They are a pain in the butt sometimes, like to jump around, are hard to set up etc. but they aren't a danger to the other goats, exhibitors and judge. If they had horns, they _would_ be dangerous. Also, if ADGA allowed horns, it doesn't mean a lot of breeders would start leaving horns on their kids. NOT a good idea to mix horned goats and non-horned goats. Even if the owners of the horned goats were used to handling them and could do it safely the other people at shows aren't going to know how to handle horned goats and horned goats are still going to be just as dangerous. 
I think it's very clear that ADGA won't change its rules about no horns. It's pretty simple--if you don't want to show then you don't have to follow the rules. If you do want to show then follow the rules and don't complain about them, no one is forcing you to show your goats


----------



## Damfino

margaret said:


> NOT a good idea to mix horned goats and non-horned goats. Even if the owners of the horned goats were used to handling them and could do it safely the other people at shows aren't going to know how to handle horned goats and horned goats are still going to be just as dangerous.


See my last post before this one. Horned and non-horned goats are already mixed at shows, yet no one seems to notice or care. Does it bother you that my troupe of horned packgoats was invited to a big goat show last April and that they were housed with the hornless dairy goats? I walked them up and down the same aisles, tied them to the same ringside areas, and used the same wash racks as the show goats and not one person ever complained to the show committee that my "horned menaces" were at an ADGA sanctioned dairy show. A lot of county fairs are starting to have a working goat division that shows at the same time as the dairy show, and no one has yet thought to house the horned ones in a different location. Does this bother you?



> I think it's very clear that ADGA won't change its rules... If you do want to show then follow the rules and don't complain about them, no one is forcing you to show your goats.


It's definitely clear that ADGA is not willing to change its rules this moment, but I am the sort of person who is rarely interested in the status quo. Once I've done a bit more infiltrating (I'm very good at that--my horned wethers have already been with me at over half the dairy shows I've attended), I'm willing to roll up my sleeves and take ADGA head-on and give 'em a run for their money. I'm not willing to "put up or shut up" as you suggest. I WILL complain because I believe it is my right and my responsibility to do so. As a member of ADGA, I have a voice and I intend to use it. I may be fighting windmills, but that's my own business. Never tell me that my only options are "Get outta Dodge" or "bend over and take it."


----------



## KW Farms

Enough with the redundant conversation folks. This thread is going no where and becoming negative. We have a "keep it friendly, keep it fun" motto here on TGS and I'm not seeing much of that in this thread. Let's get back to the original question... "are there any shows that allow horned goats?" If someone knows of a show, feel free to post, but enough with this arguing.


----------



## nancy d

And remember, all mods have the tools to disbud AND castrate this thread without further warning.


----------



## margaret

Thanks mods


----------



## Damfino

KW Farms said:


> Enough with the redundant conversation folks. This thread is going no where and becoming negative. We have a "keep it friendly, keep it fun" motto here on TGS and I'm not seeing much of that in this thread. Let's get back to the original question... "are there any shows that allow horned goats?" If someone knows of a show, feel free to post, but enough with this arguing.


I apologize for the redundancy, but I feel that no one has actually addressed any of the points I brought up which I think are quite valid. Everyone ignored Goathiker's halter comment as well. I sincerely hope I've been friendly and I'm definitely having fun. (It's a debate! What's not to like!?) I hope TGS is broad enough to allow discussion of differing viewpoints, because learning to coexist with people with whom we disagree (even strongly) is how we grow as human beings and evolve as a culture.

The answer to "are there any shows...?" is clearly a resounding, "NO!!" 
But I hope very much to help change that someday. :rainbow:


----------



## MoonShadow

I feel like I've unintentionally started World War 3 but with Goat. Lol :-?


----------



## happybleats

Some subjects can open a can of passionate debate...but you asked a good question...so here it is again...and a hopefully correct answer ;-)



> Does anyone know of any groups/organizations where you can show goats with horns(I live in Washington state).
> I would really like to eventually show horned goats. I have shown De-horned goats before and though I didn't enjoy it very much(it was my first time showing goats so that was probably it ) I would like to do it again in future. But I plan on adding some horned goats to my herd and would love to show them also if possible.


I think the over all answer is NO. Some small town fairs may be more open to it...but from everything I have read on dairy showing...no horns. : )


----------



## goathiker

I believe that you can do Liner Appraisal with horned goats and milk test of course.


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm

Yes you can Jill


----------

