# Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Difficult birth-Recovery



## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

A friend of mine, someone I met on craigslist, has a togg doe that is to kid on the 26th of this month. The agreement was that I would get all kids that come of this kidding. She doesn't have the space and doesn't believe in selling them.
The doe is purebred but not registered.
The doe has been doing good for a while and then as of 1 week ago is having problems.

She started filling on one side and not the other.
She(the owner) milked some out and sent it to the vet for testing.
The goat (her name is Theona) also has congested milk ducts. The vet says its scar tissue.She is getting Today in that one side.
Vet said to milk the doe 2 times a day..which only yeilded 1-2 tablespoons. Vet said that those milk ducts wouldn't allow for much drainage.

On top of all that the doe seems to have pregnancy toxemia, head hanging low, shaking at times and not eating a lot of grain.
I think she has had 2 B shots and a MFO drench. which has helped a little. The vet has ruled out q few strains of bacteria and is waiting for another culture to come in.
Vet also seemed to think that Theona was big with baby.
She doesn't look it but the vet said maybe triplets.

Please pray that everything goes good. As it looks now the doe will be too weak to deliver. Then there is also a possibility that she won't have colostrum. Good news is I froze some from Molly but I am 1 hr and 20 mins away. She said she will bring kids here if needed.
Hoping everything goes good.
If the doe kids good and has colostrum I will be picking the kids up when they are only 2-4 days old. I guess its CAE prevention (which I don't do...too unnatural) but the doe never nurses her kids.
So these will be my bottle babies.

I wish I had a picture for you guys but for the owners privacy I won't post one unless I get her permission.


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## RMADairyGoats (Jun 20, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Problems*

Good luck with her! And bottle babies to boot! FUN FUN FUN!!!!! :leap: Enjoy them and I hope everything goes well!


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Problems*

Good news!!

Theona is getting better, she is eating better and even stealing from others.
I think the calcium drenches are helping.
Poor girl is really really deep and it is suppressing her diaphragm, so that she makes weird noises and doesn't "talk" the same..from what I understand. Weird thing is she is deep but hollow and non-pregnant looking from the top-no baby bulge.
Vet (said to be a pessimist by my friend) says there is no hope that this doe will have colostrum.
We are hoping she does, anything is possible. Praying it works out that way.

Either way she (goat owner) is coming to my place (1 hr 20mins) to pick up a gallon of colostrum I froze from Molly.
Just in case she ends up needing it. So yes, I should have 2-3 bottle babies in a few weeks. All of which I will be keeping, unless there are more than one buck. I am hoping for :kidred: :kidred: :kidblue:


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Problems*

OMG! Glad to hear she's doing better! Not long now and you'll be in bottle baby h**l! hehehe I loathe bottle babies.....just sayin.....


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Problems*

Vet still thinks no colostrum.
How much of it do kids need?
I only have 1 gallon and I am not sure how long that will last...1 day for 2-3 kids?
I am worried I might not have enough.
Goat lady (she,like me, has never had this problem) thinks they just need it for their first meal and a few meals after that.
I think they would need it 3 whole days right? Should she get colostrum stuff...I think they have that right?


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Problems*

At minimum they need 1 oz per lb of body weight. You usually want them to get at least 20 oz witihn 24 hrs.

When she milked the one side, was it pure white like milk or was it kind of clear or look like very watery milk? One of my does filled unevenly this year, but when she kidded she was even. I personally would not have milked the doe as that disrupts the natural plug in the teat that keeps bacteria out, doing that will only let bacteria in. As long as it is not hot, hard or painful I would leave it alone and wait until after she kids to see how it is. Leaving it alone she should produce colostrum, although if she does have mastitis only on one side, the other side should still make milk.

Does the doe get any alfalfa hay or pellets or anything else that is high in calcium? If not, I would see if she can start feeding her some alfalfa hay or alfalfa pellets to get some more calcium in her diet.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Problems*

She has been milking her due to her being a pre-kidding milker (I forget that word). She had a weird lop sided udder with milk before breeding and this was the reason she bred her-in hope that it would straighten out.
Don't quote me..I am trying to understand all this from a few emails back and forth..don't know if I have all the details.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Problems*

I emailed the goat owner. This is her reply-
"The affected side, if I remember correctly now, was slightly tinged red, yellow, creamy consistency, and didn't smell right. Not clear, watery."
It was one side with mastitis , the other one is good I think.
She said she only recently stopped milking(the do that is) so milk plugs aren't a big issue. I think I must have it wrong. I think this is her 2nd kidding not a FF. She said she had mastitis a few months back and has it again.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-THINGS NOT GOING WELL*

Theona is not doing good at all.
Just got a call from the owner and she said it look as if she is in labor...as in aborting.
She is 11 days early with no udder at all. I am thawing out my colostrum to try to save as many of them as possible. Not looking good though.
The doe is also not very healthy or strong for the kidding and the owner wasn't really even ready for her to go this early.
This is very saddening for the owner and myself.
Not sure how many of the kids will make it...or the doe even.
Please pray!


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## dobe627 (Oct 16, 2007)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-In labor/aborting*

Sadly at 11 days early it is very unlikely the kids will make it. Sorry for that. What day is 145?


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-In labor/aborting*

The 21st


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-In labor/aborting*

What makes it worse is she is 1 hr and 20 mins away from me.
She was planning to come today or tomorrow for the colostrum to have it before she kid but she is already in labor.
I know the chances of the kids making it is slim but at least we won't give up without trying.
I might meet her 1/2 hr down the road to try to get some colostrum down them asap.
It is all thawed out and in a bottle.

Worried though as she called around 1 that the doe was in labor but it is already 2:30.
It doesn't take a guess to know things are not going good over there.


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-In labor/aborting*

ray: I've never had a doe go that early, but there may be a slim chance of the kids surviving, especially if the owner is there to get them breathing and stimulated.

Hopefully at least the doe will pull through ray:


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-In labor/aborting*

So I emailed the owner and got a reply just now.
She said Theona is in early labor and is only having very mild contractions.
She "still has her water" and it looks like she will hold off till tomorrow or tomorrow night.
She is however having bloody mucus discharge.

So that is good, right? Would one day make a difference?
By the sounds of it these babies are going to be huge(or at least big) so I think they may have a better chance than if they were really small.

She bought some bovine colostrum and is going to use that for their first meal.
That and what little colostrum the doe will have. Looks like one side may work.
The owner will use Theona's (again what little there is) and store colostrum to get them fed and be there to get them breathing/stimulated. After they have eaten she is sending them with her husband (she is staying with the doe) to me so I can feed them Molly's colostrum.
So we are trying to use what little we have from 3 buckets I guess. I only have 1/2 gallon (or tad more) which is a lot less than I thought. She might have 1 pint or 1 quart from her doe. Then whatever she uses from the store stuff.
Long long do you think this would last? We are trying to use almost all natural fresh colostrum before using the store stuff, so once I run out of Molly's I will use the store stuff.

She said to ask a question for "my people" here on TGS.
She want to know if Theonas milk will hurt the babies.
She gave "Today" on the 7th on the bad side and on the 10th to the good side.
She was advised to leave it in that by the time she kids most of it would be absorbed and what was left wouldn't hurt the kids.
Now that she will be kidding early she (theona) has cheated her out of those 2 weeks for the "today" to work and get adsorbed.
So there is likely some of it still in there. From the sounds of it she would have at least 1/2 an udder.
Should she just use the powder colostrum and not the mothers milk due to this?

Good news is her appetite is improving and she is stronger now.
That was in part because she was given some more calcium drenches but it is good that she is stronger for the delivery.
She was very shaky yesterday and today hardly at all.

I am glad this is only early labor because I didn't clean out the kidding pen (where I am putting the kids for the first couple weeks).
I had planned to do this weekend but this doe had other plans.
The owner was definitely not ready. She had to go get stuff ready and then to find out she is in early labor (I did that too this year).

Edit: Woah!! :shocked: That is really long. Sorry!


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

Okay I was way wrong with my guess. Not tomorrow TONIGHT.
Her water broke and she is in active labor.
she has a little milk on both sides of her udder.
They will still likely bring them here tonight for colostrum.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

ray: I hope all goes well!!


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## mtmom75 (May 19, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

I hope everything goes okay. Gosh, this is so early. ray:


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

Now I am really getting worried. It has been more than 2 hrs without hearing anything since her water broke.
I am sure she is probably busy getting them to take a bottle..just hope everything went okay.
Its either that or they are already on the way with the kids...which I doubt as they would have called.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

Not going well.

Just got an update.
She said the frist kid was an empty sac(I don't get that) and she acts like she kidded.
She lays down for kid #2 and starts shaking like crazy.
When she does this she left to go call the vet but was called back by her husband as she was pushing again.
She gets there and she stops. Really weird.
Then her Jerk of vet won't answer the phone. Not being harsh it is true.
This vet doesn't care anything about this goat and could care less if the kids died, she has already predicted it.
So frustrating,confusing,and tiring.


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## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

Thats so frustrating! I'm so sorry you have to go through this!

Hopefully there is one healthy kid in there somewhere . . . ray:


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

I guess she did get in contact with the vet and she said she needs more calcium.
Shaking means she needs calcium...even though she had it twice today.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

Very sad news.

I didn't hear from her till now as she was sleeping.
All this was a very long brutal experience for her and she went to bed this morning.
The kids did not make it without much help from the vet.
It was a boy/girl twins that passed. Vet had to get rid of them asap to save the life of the doe.

This vet is a jerk, that is not something I say usually, but now I don't feel bad about calling her this.
She did NOTHING to help this lady until it was too late.
She cares nothing for this poor lady, the goat, her career, the kids, or animals in general.

For those who thought this lady wasn't doing enough for her doe, she was. She has been dilating the doe and going in "fishing" trying to get them out but couldn't. At the start of it the vet wouldn't answer the phone and when she did she said something barbaric like "just give her some more calcium, that is why she is shaking, let me know how it goes". I mean seriously?? I am no expert but know that would do almost NO good. The doe was weak and shaky and almost to death.

This lady has been calling the vet saying its an emergency and to come out ASAP but she didn't. She asked for some meds to get her going and bring her back "from the dead" before kids were born but she didn't get it.

Finally she calls the vet saying to get she needs her out there NOW or they all die. Wouldn't you know it took her 1 hr to get out there when she isn't all that far away. when she gets there she tore the poor doe apart getting the kids out. Both were dead..
Then after all that the doe was dying and she (thew goat owner not the vet) had to give her an IV to bring her back from the dead again.

From the sounds of it Theona is doing better right now, stable, but has a long way to recover. The owner said her pain is about that of the doe.I am sure this very hard on her. She did everything she knew to do with little help from the vet. If she didn't go in with her hands and then her husbands hands as to stretch her and keep her open longer.
If it wasn't for this the goat would be dead now by the way the vet went in.

Sorry for the vent. This vet should loose her job or be sued.
I am usually never this angry :veryangry: :veryangry: :hair: 
This vet could have helped but it is like she chose not to.
I don't get it??

I feel really bad for the owner, I can't even imagine how this is on her, the pain she must feel from all this.
I kinda knew that loosing the kids was a very high possibility with her going so early but it might have been prevented.
It is more her loss than mine.

Sorry this is long...I just needed to steem a little.


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## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

I am swearing and cussing a lot right now, just so you know, since I can't put those words on the forum.

What the heck!! How DARE that vet do that!!! I would definitely look into taking some form of legal action, at least far enough to get that vet fired and never allowed to work with animals again.

IF FOR NO OTHER REASON, that doe was an investment and property that the vet should have respected if not because it was a life in pain that needed help!! Her blatant disregard for the does safety and the retrieval of the kids should be worthy of an ASPCA animal cruelty investigation. Considering the owner was experienced and still had trouble so she turned to someone with supposed medical training and certification, IN MY OPINION it is almost ENTIRELY the vet's fault that things turned out so poorly.

I am so FURIOUS and I am not even envolved!!! I can not imagine how you and the owner feel!! That vet is a lousy human being and needs to be fined, jailed, fired, and seriously reprimanded for her behavior and mistreatment.

:veryangry: :veryangry: :angry: :angry: :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry: :hair: :hair: :GAAH: :GAAH:

If i were closer, I would help you take legal action. ANY help you need, ask me and I am THERE. I am VERY strongly against EVERYTHING you and this poor owner and her goat had to go through, and that VET ..... GAH!!! I can't even properly express my feelings :veryangry: :veryangry:


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

also I forgot to add a VERY important part.
The vet prescribed "Today" about 1-2 weeks ago. It was too close to kidding and the milk would have been bad for the kids anyways.
The treatment she put the doe on caused hormonal changes and premature labor.
She got pregnancy toxemia REALLY bad...not sure if the treatment had anything to do with that either.
Every since treatment the doe was going down hill. All started will a udder problem/
I am not sure what else the vet prescribed


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-water broke-in active l*

That is very sad. I am so sorry for her. Prayers that the doe recovers. ray: I hope she can find a better vet.


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## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

Wow. What a horrible, horrible thing to go through. What a terrible vet! So sorry it turned out this way, I pray Theona makes it through.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

Man that makes me so mad! I can't tell you how many stories I've heard of really bad vets, much less relate actual experiences. I just don't understand why you would be a vet if you don't even care! I guess its the lure of the money? And so many just blow off your knowledge because "I'm a vet, how dare people act like they know anything about veterinary knowledge". I understand being mad when people nearly self proclaim themselves a vet and the actual professionals have to deal with those people....but there are many pet/livestock owners who truly educate themselves and their opinion on what is going on deserves to be looked at and weighed!!!

There is a small animal vet out here everyone goes to because they are CHEAP. That should be a huge clue for people. They are very small, don't have the space or equipment for real emergencies, etc. The main vet is old as the sky and does NOT like "new fangled" medicine. They put down my neighbor's dog who had cancer without her consent because she refused the treatment they insisted he needed (chemo). She didn't want him to suffer so she was going to take him elsewhere and look at other options. The dog was still happy at the point. He was dead when she got there because they had elected to put him down if she was going to ignore their expertise. Our dog got out and hit by a car and a witness took her there. They refused to run any tests, take blood, do xrays, etc. because she was in shock. I could not get a straight answer out of anyone for hours about what was happening until I made a huge scene in the middle of the waiting room. Turns out they wouldn't run tests...but they stitched up her leg, etc. (which MY vet said they shouldn't have done if she was really in such horrible shock you couldn't even run tests..which he said they still should have immediately) and THREW HER IN A KENNEL for hours while she died. They later said well, you didn't look like you could pay for her care. They didn't ask, they didn't give me options. Took a puppy there we got who was supposedly vaccinated but we suspected he had parvo. Vet said..."probably" took him in back and didn't return. I waited an hour and finally demanded my dog back. They said that people who came there couldn't afford parvo treatment, they didn't even run a simple test...just was going to let him die there so I wouldn't have to see it. No consulting with me! I took him to my own vet, they dropped everything to do a test when they heard parvo and stuck him on an IV pronto. Saved his life. $600 later sure, but I WANTED to pay it!

Took a goat kid to a vet last year because he was doing really poorly. I suspected FKS. Vet said he didn't deal with goats, but had sheep. Insisted it wasn't FKS. Recommended all the things I was already doing and sent me home with a big bill even though he simply re-iterated the steps I was already taking. Kid bounced back and was leaping all over the living room acting normal. I decided to with-hold all milk for 24 hours as I was told to do for FKS by a breeder.I was just giving him electrolytes. Vet called to check on him and yelled at me for not feeding him...made me second guess myself and feel guilty. So I fed him a little. Within an hour he was flat out again. Died that night. Positive it was because he had FKS and I fed him, making him relapse. Stupid freaking vet! Thats why I listen to you guys over them.

Sorry to rant, but I HATE vets like this!


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

Also there were 2 vets. can you believe that?
One was her regular vet and the other was one on call last night..the one that came to get the kids out.

Firelight- saw your post as I was about to post mine.
I understand what you are saying. I just skimmed it for now will read the rest later.

But if it were me I would be out there even if the owners could only pay me for gas and take payments if I really needed the full bill (what my vet does). It shows that you care when you want to be there to help.

This lady said she is really raging about all this inside and is as aggravated about this as I am, about the vets practice.

An Update on Theona: She hasn't passed the placenta yet and the owner is hoping she will be able to do so. They are giving her four shots of oxytocin today. That is after the doe has had a little time to recover.

No expert here again but- Wouldn't it make sense that the placenta come out sooner rather than later? Wouldn't she start closing up?

The doe is also very swollen from this and will likely be bleeding for a while.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

Talked to the owner more, shared my opinion about all this(some of which is the same as what you guys have said).

She said she completely agrees with me and that I wasn't out of line.
These Vets just didn't give a D (is that a bad word for here?). They know they are the only show in town.
They were just to lazy plain and simple.

She said she would like to do something about this but isn't going to. If she ever needs a vet later on there wouldn't be one for 1 hr+.
She might have to drive all the way over to my area for a good livestock vet. hard to do at times when a goat can't be transported that far. They are also outrageous with the price of everything. $25 for 2cc's of BoSe etc. Even for for other meds. All the past 2 weeks has been lots of meds, I am sure the bill is very high.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

:hug: to her for all she has gone thru. 
ray: That the doe recovers. 
:veryangry: About the vet!!! That is so horribly frustrating! The vet should be reported to the board of veterinary medicine and also to the Better Business Bureau.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*



freedomstarfarm said:


> :hug: to her for all she has gone thru.
> ray: That the doe recovers.
> :veryangry: About the vet!!! That is so horribly frustrating! The vet should be reported to the board of veterinary medicine and also to the Better Business Bureau.


Second this. I don't think they will release her name (the board of vet med.) to the veterinarians if they decide to investigate.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

i am very sorry about the way it turned out.

i understand you are very angry ... but ... dont shoot me now ...

i think you all might be etting carried away calling this vet names and wanting to sue etc. 
first of all i highly doubt you are going to be able to sue this vet or get their licence removed. why? they did their job. they gave advice over the phone (no matter how we may disagree with it every vet does things differently) and she eventually came out and pulled the kids. who is to say that they werent very busy in the surgery and couldnt come out until then? personally when i have an emergency i put the goat in the car and drive there, walk right into the reception with the animal. no matter how busy they are they cannot ignore an emergency that is right in their building. the simple fact that when the vet did get there she was able to get the very badly malpresented kids out, when an experienced breeder couldnt, shows that she is experienced and good at obstetrics.

i also think that the owner is not completely without fault here. i understand she must be terribly upset about her doe but we werent there when she made the phone calls so we dont know whether she expressed to the vet that it was urgent earlier and that she needed to come out, or whether she simply called them saying the goat was having difficulties.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

sorry my phone wont let me finish that post. i was also gonna say there is also the golden rule that there should be progress every half an hour and an experienced goat breeder should know this. it includes half an hour of assistance - if you have tried to correct the malpresebtation and deliver the kids but have got nowhere within half an hour, STOP. you cant do it and you need someone else to help. if she had got the vet out earlier the situation may have been different. too many does are complete train wrecks by the time the vet attends ecause they have been left too long labouring and more than one person has gone in and failed and damaged er further. when the vet arrives the kids are dead, the doe exhausted and on deaths door and the vet is blamed for winding up with dead animals when really the situation should have beeb remedied hours ago.

look the whole thing i am trying to say is that we never know all sides of the tory unless we are there so we cant go pointing fingers of blame it just isnt fair.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

Yeah sorry about that, fumes have died down now. I was a little out of line.

She said she would like to file against the vet but decided not to. It isn't really right. I think the owner and I were just caught up in the heat of everything. She wants to keep with her vet so she would have someone to call on if there is every any other problem. There aren't any others in the area. The vet doesn't need to loose her job, she needs to get to scene when needed and not hrs later.
The vet wouldn't loose her job, she would just get a warning. But we aren't going there.

Also to clarify- She called them right when the doe went into pre-mature labor.
This was early labor at the time. She told the vet that there were going to be complications and that she wanted some med and for the vet to come and check her out before she gets serious.
About 5-7 hrs later the doe started active labor and when it went over a hour she called the vet and the vet said to give more calcium. She did call after it was over 1 hr of active labor for the vet to come and the vet just said she needed calcium and she should kid and didn't come out. After that she was asking for the vet to come out. She did explain it was urgent. She knows they had been in there way too long.
After that she went fishing trying to get the kids out.

I still think there is no reason why it would take so long for the vet to get out there.
The vet is experienced no doubt but for the last few weeks has been very rude,optimistic, and pessimistic(glass is always half empty) and negative towards this lady. This lady has been mistreated by the vet, that is the reason why I think she should be issued a warning.
She called the vet several times to say they need help asap and they didn't come until a while later.
Through all of this she told them it was an emergency. They still took forever.
She sent me a text about every time she called the vet, most of the times not to get an answer at all.
I know she called the vet quite a few times. When she did reach them they didn't seem to care about getting there in a timely manner.

The girl was small and the boy was huge. Girl has a broken neck and died shortly after coming out.
The doe did produce 5 cups of colostrum from both teats even though the vet said any milk at all was hopeless.
They could have been saved if the vet came when she said she needed help at a little over an hour of active labor.

You don't think this vet could have done more? She was home anyways and only 10ish miles up the road.
Yet it still took her forever to come out and help.

This is hard to keep repeating. The vet could have done more plain and simple.
Maybe the owner could have been at fault in that she waited 2 hrs before she went in, but she was following the vet until she realized the vet was of no help and she needed to do something about the situation.

just saw ur second post. She tried to get vet help for hours and hours.
She knew the kids needed to come out and she couldn't get it. Waited for the vet and called over and over.

FYI this is not an experience goat person. This is her 3rd or 4th doe to kid but that was 4-6 years ago that she last bred a goat.
This is the first time in a long while.
She was no expert and didn't know what she was doing. She tried getting help from me (she isn't much of a internet person).. I am afraid I wasn't much help. Neither was the vet.

okay I gotta go do the dishes


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

I sure hope the doe recovers and passes her afterbirth. You may want to suggest to her owner to get some preparation H to put on her to help with the swelling. For the placenta, she can try to tie it in a knot, or try to tie a plastic baggy full of water to it to add a little weight, that will sometimes help it come out. Since the kids were so early, it's possible the placenta wasn't quite ready to let go and may take a little longer. If she can, she needs to try and get some Bo-Se from the vet as that will help her to pass the afterbirth.

I would guess that if the buck kid was dead at birth, he may have died before the doe entered labor and might be the reason she aborted. Dead kids also usually don't come out in the correct position and can't help themselves out by bracing against the other side of the uterus like a live kid. The doe kid may have broken her neck from being jammed up against the doe's pelvis or the other kid for so long since she was not able to get her out, of course if the vet had been there sooner she may have gotten her out before she broke her neck. Personally if the doe was lacking calcium the vet should have prescribed her some injectable CMPK. If she had a diet with adequate calcium, but was still deficient she should have been getting the injectable over the oral because if she wasn't absorbing the calcium from her diet, then she would also have a hard time absorbing oral calcium, so the injectable would be a better option. The vet should have known this.

It sounds like the vet didn't act in a very professional way, being rude and not being very hopeful about the outcome. It may be the vet was just trying to not get the owners hopes up that things would turn out ok, but she still should not have been rude to her. A customer is a customer no matter what animal they own.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

She has been getting calcium drenches daily for a week or so.
should be 3rd shot of oxytocin by now. she said it helps her pass it but it is taking time.
The vet is giving her a course of procaine G penicillin.

I recommended a a bolus or uterus flush of some sort (not to keen on all that) but she said she can't get that even in a vets care.
Isn't there something that can be picked up from TSC? She scrubbed up but wasn't wearing gloves.
She was entered more than 4 times so I would think she would need something?


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

The TSC near me carries the uterine boluses. They are made for cattle and in a white plastic jar with a red label with yellow border, I think the pic has a cow and sheep on it.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

Is this it?
http://www.tractorsupply.com/durvet-ute ... us-2206351


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## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

yea that's it.. I guess it has a yellow label, not red. Do you know how the doe is doing today?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

Yep I'd second the bolus, or at the least an injectable course of systemic antibiotics.

Hope she is doing ok, poor baby

Also, I never wear gloves, just wash hands and arms and doe's backside with vet grade disinfectant. Its acceptable and personally I lose a lot of feeling when I wear gloves.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

I haven't heard from her yet.
Sent her some info about G pen (which she is doing).
I sent her the info on the bolus yesterday but didn't hear from her yet.
Last I heard the placenta still wasn't out...but that was a while ago.
By now I would really hope its out, I bet it is by now.
She would have had all 4 shots of oxytocin by now.

Darn! I forgot to tell her to tie it up, knot it, or put some sort of small weight on it.
She said she is researching a lot so I hope she was able to find that info.

She is the type that doesn't get replies out right away, not much of a email person.
So it usually takes her anywhere from 2 hrs to 2 days to respond.
This isn't something I understand as I check my email about every hour :roll: 
Maybe with a FT job and "life" this gets harder.

Also I heard that she washed up, that is why I highly recommended the bolus to her. I don't think washed is the same as scrubbed. Didn't ask but idk if she used vet grade disinfectant.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*



> Yep I'd second the bolus, or at the least an injectable course of systemic antibiotics.
> 
> Hope she is doing ok, poor baby
> 
> Also, I never wear gloves, just wash hands and arms and doe's backside with vet grade disinfectant. Its acceptable and personally I lose a lot of feeling when I wear gloves.


 I agree totally.... :thumb:


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-difficult labor-dead ki*

Just heard from her today.

From the sounds of it she passed most of the afterbirth and she is not sure if it is all out.
She said some goat people she knows says that would be ok as she would absorb whatever is still in there, although I have never heard of that.
She said she isn't going to do the bolus. For these reasons-
"1. I would hate at this late date to reenter her.
2. Already started on path of penicillin on instruction of vet, as well as online advice, and goat friends,
3. Looked into the boluses. They are 100% urea. They have proteolytic properties, which means they help to break up protein tissue, aiming at placenta. I am sure Theona incurred injuries, from the amt of bloody liquid coming from her. This needs to heal. Something with proteolytic properties would create a harsh environment for vulnerable healing protein tissue. The urea would act indiscriminantly. Healthy tissue could probably deal with it, probably not so lesioned tissue."

I don't know a whole lot about all this, she has been in this longer than I have. So I hope she has it right.

Other than that she is making a slow but good recovery.
She said she had company over and she was her normal self (affectionate friendly people goat) even though she was no doubt still in a lot of pain.
A little bit more active and eating.

I will likely see her(owner) and her herd on Wednesday.
*may* be going there for an incubator and some fencing so I will get a visual of how he is doing.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Difficult birth-Recover*

So she is recovering..but very slow.
Her appetite isn't as good as it should be.
I am bringing a bale or 2 of my higher quality hay so that she will get more nutrients to recover and it might help her appetite.
It is alfalfa/timothy hay and all my girls get fat off it and go crazy over it..so I am hoping it helps her eat better/more.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Difficult birth-Recover*

For appetite... I'd recommend Banamine ...works wonders..... :hug:

glad she is getting better day by day..... ray:


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Difficult birth-Recover*

I went here yesterday to see her.
She is doing a lot better. She is active and eating and is on the road to normal-ness .
She is a mess back there due to the pulling of the kids but appears to have come a long ways.

To clarify- When this lady went in she said the kid wasn't in the birth canal at all.
she reached in and there was a huge drop into the does uterus. The kids were way down there and deep.
They had to be lifted up first before being pulled out. This lady is kinda small with short arms so the reason she coudn't get them out was because she couldn't reach. her husband tried, as he has longer arms, but his were too big.
He couldn't get his hands in very far and it really hurt the doe...his arms were just way too big.
When the vet came she was somewhat of a medium. she had longer arms and was able to get them out where as the owner couldn't reach them except for the very tip of the head.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: Togg doe due March 26th-not mine-Difficult birth-Recover*

Wow.. that deep ..... :shocked: it is frustrating.... they couldn't get to the bottom...but ...glad the vet was able to.... so happy... she is doing good..... :thumb: :hi5:


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