# Pulling kids pros and cons



## gegegoatgirl2698 (Feb 1, 2014)

I have my nigi doe sweetheart due soon and can't quite decide what I want to do with rearing the kids. A big part of me says pull the kids at birth, milk, then bottle feed because I don't want her bag beat up. But I also wanted to see what your thoughts and experiences were.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

We choose to Dam raise ours...heres what we do...we milk mom from day one..with babies on mom 24/7 for two weeks..by milking while baby is on mom, she keeps production up. At 2 weeks old, we put babies up at night and milk mom in the morning, then give baby back to mom for the day..we again milk mom in the evening even though baby has been on her all day...this works great for us...since we prefer not to bottle feed. I think this is less stressful on mom. We have never had a baby hurt moms udder. the worse we even dealt with is keeping things even with singles as in the beginning they tend to pick one fav. side.Even this has not been a huge issue. ..However if you decide to bottle feed , then pulling at birth is best and less stress on all involved. 

best wishes!!


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## Bree_6293 (Aug 4, 2014)

With ours we are trying to get to a full friendly herd. Our does that are already really friendly dam raise their kids (ideally) and our nutty wild girls have babies pulled to bottle raise. I find it much easier to handle and care for my friendly goats and so want a herd that is all friendly and easy. We tried raising a kid of its wild mother our first year thinking if we spent heaps of time the kid would calm down and be nicer than the mom. Nope the mom made the kid wild... Hopefully one day our whole herd is tame and they can all dam raise


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## gegegoatgirl2698 (Feb 1, 2014)

Thank you for both your thoughts.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

There are some questions you need to ask your self?

Do you have CAE in your herd?

Do you go to activities where your goats have contact with other herds of goats?

Do you plan on selling your goats only to the meat market? (no sales of pets or breading does)

Are you ever planning to take your goats to goat shows or the fair?

Is there even a slight chance you should change your mind and go to fairs and goat shows sell pets or breading stock ?

Are you a softy and could not sell your beloved goats if they have CAE?


If you answered yes, I don't not know or maybe to any of these questions you should pull you kids, and feed pasteurized milk to your kids,

I just changed directions with my goat herd. We became a registered herd. to protect our investment we had to decide Do we spend the money and test all 60 goats we had. or sell the herd and use the money to buy registered goats. We culled most of our goats. it hurt and I wouldn't wish that pain on any one.

Because of my experience I would recommend that you treat even your grade goats like they were registered. pull your kids.


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## AncientBlue (Dec 21, 2014)

Rosey dam raised Billy and Sabatina. Had no problems with beat up bags. The kids nursed off of both Rosey and Annabelle. The kids (Billy and Sabatina) are both considerably friendlier than Rosey. I think it's because I got them when they were 1 week old and I'm just the human part of the herd as far as they're concerned. On a scale of friendly it goes like this here Billy, Sabatina, Smokey, Rosey, Annabelle. I think the last two, because they came to us later in life, are still mildly worried about us. The longer they are with us, the better and friendlier they seem to become. You never really know what their lives were like before you got them so the longer history, the longer until they are more friendly and less wild. I'm sure there are many other factors on why they are so friendly. I don't have a ton of goats, only 5 and they can see our house and back porch at all times, so they see us even if we aren't directly with them.

I am planning on following Cathy's (HappyBleats) advise on milking and pulling this year and thank her much for posting.


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## gegegoatgirl2698 (Feb 1, 2014)

Sweetheart doesn't have cae, she is registered and kids will be too. Yes I do go to shows and fairs in fact I just got back last night. I do worry one of my other does has it... I am going to get her tested when I preg test her. I do believe it will be better on all of us for me to feed them but I think I will pen them next to her so she still can see them and they know they are goats. Also do you think she will be depressed if I pull them at birth? One of my does who had an abortion late in gestation was extremely depressed for several weeks. Have you had a problem with this? Thank you!


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Bottle feeding is hard work!
I pretty much follow the same plan as happybleats. One exception being that our babies are always such piggies; there is never any extra milk in Mom if they have had a go at her. Once in a while we have to milk out someone with a single.
As for friendly babies, those kids in my avatar are dam raised quads.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yep..our kids usually are lap babies too...and we have had wild kids from tame moms and tame kids from wild moms...just never know...spending time with each kid helps. ..penning them up at night is a good time to play with them...love that pen time


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

All mine so far have been dam raised...all were friendly. My doe I got as a bottle bay is friendly but the ones I didn't bottle feed are too.
Now my bucks are a different story. The first buck I had was dam raised and never disrespected my space in rut or no...but the two I have now that were bottle raised will challenge occasionally and nothing except a water bottle and persistence in spraying dissuades them when in rut. When not in rut, they're fine 

I pull at night from 2 weeks on....and wean at around 12 weeks if they are being sold but the ones staying here for meat are left on mom during the day for the entire time they are here.


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

I bottle feed, I wouldn't but I don't have good facilities to wean and from my past experience weaning is hard! I raise dairy goats for milk so when they are old enough to wean and just milk the doe huge problem. This spring I had one doe I didn't think was pregnant but I was wrong, all the other kids were almost old enough to wean so I didn't want to put her single in with the older kids on the lambar so let her raise her doeling, I milked her twice a day with the rest of the herd, well, doe is 6 months old now and still nursing! I am taping to try to get her to stop before I breed mom again. These silly girls just don't want to stop. Again huge pain! She does not like the tape on her and I don't like having to do it everyday. I had her apart from mom for 2 months, the minute she was back with the herd right back to mom.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

Gegegoatgirl when we pull the kids we have seen the mother look for her baby for a bit we see her looking mostly when her bag is full. after we milk she will not look any longer,
when we pull the kids they are wet many times the mother never sees them. When we can do this there seems to be a disconnect and the doe wont look.
the depression you saw may have been the doe feeling poorly from the abort.


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## gegegoatgirl2698 (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks for the insight


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Personally, I see few pros to pulling kids. It's a lot of work and it's way too heart-wrenching for me. I made that decision when I helped a friend pull kids for bottle raising and it broke my heart to hear the mamas cry for the babies they would never be allowed to lick or cuddle or nurse. Call me a sap, but I haven't got the heart do that to my mamas. Obviously there are some exceptions, but nearly every mama goat loves her babies. She worked hard to carry and deliver them safely into this world. She deserves the pleasure of raising her offspring, and I think the kids are healthier and happier with their own mother. I like to keep my animals as naturally as possible, so dam-raising fits with my philosophy and my lifestyle.

That said, I do test for CAE every year before kidding to make sure the milk will be safe. I also spend a lot of time bonding with the babies to make sure they are well socialized with people. I show all my goats, and the boys eventually become packgoats. Packgoats must be very well bonded to people if they are to be any good on the trail, so making my babies friendly and trusting is top priority. There's no reason for dam-raised kids to be wild. I find that since I don't have to spend so much time milking, pasteurizing, preparing bottles, and washing equipment I can instead spend it bonding with the kids. Playing with them, holding them, and teaching them little tricks is at least as effective as feeding them and probably more stimulating for their brains. 

Some people mistakenly believe that bottle feeding automatically socializes a goat. This is not true. The two wildest goats in my herd were ones I bought last year who were bottle raised but never socialized. Hence they will come to me for food but nothing else. They don't want to be handled or petted, they rarely come when called (unless they see food in my hand), and they leave as soon as the treats run out. I've made a ton of progress with them in the last year, but I doubt they will ever truly bond to humans. So even if you choose to bottle feed, make sure you spend time socializing as well. A mother goat is not just a food source--she's a source of companionship, warmth, love, play, discipline, goat knowledge, and almost round-the-clock attention. If you want to take her place, you have to be prepared to fill some pretty big shoes.


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## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

I've done both, and like both, last year we tried bottle raising all our kids for the first time and pulled from birth, my does all took it well and hardly bat an eye... My yearling Nubian was the only one who got upset, even my does that raised kids in the past didn't care. 

I also like my dam raised kids... I think I'm going to try and pull kids again this year, see how it goes before I make a firm choice as to how I'll be doing it from now on.. 

I will say the milking aspect was a lot easier for me... I had kids on bottles for about a week or so, then they all got put on a lambar, which made things much easier!

If your doing it for friendly kids, then either way will work, but, you just need to spend time with dam raised kids, my kids were always super friendly


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

I ALWAYS pull my kids. Especially the Nigerians. I've had a total of 7 Nigerian kids that I dam raised and each one has been a BRAT! Hated people, unfriendly even though we played with them and spent time with them when they were little. I had YEARLINGS that would steal milk from their mothers. I couldn't have them in a pen next to their dams because they stuck their heads through the fence to nurse. Hard to keep in, all they wanted was their dams. I pulled the triplet Nigi doelings from this year and sold 2. The new owners love their kids and the remaining doeling is sweet and friendly. No problems with not having milk for us to drink and weaning kids. Those last kids...I swear I could have wrung their necks more than once.
I will never, ever dam raise another kid unless I ABSOLUTELY have to.
And really, with just a few kids, bottle raising is easy. I do lambar for mine which works wonderfully but bottle feeding a few kids isn't very hard.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Damfino said:


> Some people mistakenly believe that bottle feeding automatically socializes a goat. This is not true. The two wildest goats in my herd were ones I bought last year who were bottle raised but never socialized. Hence they will come to me for food but nothing else. They don't want to be handled or petted, they rarely come when called (unless they see food in my hand), and they leave as soon as the treats run out. I've made a ton of progress with them in the last year, but I doubt they will ever truly bond to humans. So even if you choose to bottle feed, make sure you spend time socializing as well. A mother goat is not just a food source--she's a source of companionship, warmth, love, play, discipline, goat knowledge, and almost round-the-clock attention. If you want to take her place, you have to be prepared to fill some pretty big shoes.


My hand raised kids are so much happier and healthier than my dam raised ones and MUCH more friendly and people loving. I'm busy with 25 goats, I don't have a lot time to spend socializing my kids.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Also, after an hour or so my does forget all about their babies. 
No screaming mothers or babies if they get separated, or if I lock them up in order to get milk in the morning, they really don't care and are just happy to be with their herd mates.


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## WitchHazel (May 5, 2015)

We bout our first two goats as bottle babies. They are very loving.... too loving. If they escape, they run straight for the house. They are pushy, overbearing, and have virtually no respect for the squirt bottle.

They are also funny; when we go out to see them, they compete for our attention by doing tricks. They trust us completely, and will happily fall asleep in our laps. They are easy to catch and handle.

I haven't raised a batch of kids yet, so I don't have a concrete opinion, but it seems to me that a half-and-half approach might get the best of both worlds.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm struggling with this same decision right now! I have a Nigerian due soon, and I keep going back and forth on whether to pull all the kids. I too always thought that bottle raised kids are much friendlier than dam raised ones, but I do have one little girl who was dam raised this year and she is super friendly with people, so now I'm kinda rethinking that whole concept! My other one though that was dam raised does tend to be more skiddish, but her mom is pretty wild so I think maybe that has something to do with it. My bottle raised babies on the other hand, oh boy! If they could live in the house with me and sleep in my bed, they would! They are all Super people-friendly, some times annoyingly so! Haha. They were all bought as bottle babies though, so there was no "pulling them from mom" (I let someone else handle that part!) and in all the babies that I have pulled to sell, I've always left one kid with mom, because I'm a sap lol.. I guess in the end you just have to go with what you feel is right for you, the mom and the kids. Everyone has pros and cons of either side.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

>>>I'm a sap lol<<<
Me too.

My solution to the weaning "problem" is............I don't do it. We have plenty of milk to share with the kids. By the time pregnant moms are around 2 months along the kids that are left always seem to have gotten weaned somewhere along the way. I have yet to see a daisy chain of nursing goats but I think it would be humorous.


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## slackwater (Jul 24, 2015)

I kind of took a hybrid approach, we'll see how well that works this year...

Last year, had one doe kid (successfully). She's pretty friendly, I let her raise the baby - BUT I did milk her some and then offered some feedings of her milk to the baby via bottle. Baby (now 6mos) is friendly, but not as much so as my bottle babies (purchased that way). My bottle babies - they're ridiculously friendly, almost too much so. Neither is fully "socialized" and won't graze with the herd - they prefer to hang out by the fence *just in case* I'm going to come out and visit. It almost makes me sad, but I do like that they like me 

Of the babies that I purchased last year - bottle babies described above, two dam-raised babies are either OVERLY friendly (Nigerian) or a bit standoffish but friendly enough (myotonic).

This year, I hope to have 5-6 does kid. I will start off w/everyone being dam-raised, but will probably pull the ones from the wilder does around 4weeks and feed milk from their own mamas via hand-bottle. Easy enough for me, I have 4 kids who love nothing more than to feed baby goats if I set up the bottles  The ones with the tamer does will probably get the "hybrid" treatment described above.

We'll see how that works.


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## gegegoatgirl2698 (Feb 1, 2014)

I really like the ideas about partial mom and bottle feeding. I think this is probably how I will do it. I just hate the idea of taking kids from this doe because she has such a maternal attitude.


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

So something new I am now dealing with regarding the doe I let raise her kid this year as she was so much younger than my bottle babies, I put her back in with the herd and have been tapeing mom, which I detest doing, but seemed she was getting the idea she couldn't nurse anymore, now I go out and find Grandma, who is one of my main milking does is now FEEDING the little brat! This will never end so I will be selling this little milk thief and will never make this mistake again. Grandma has never raised her own kids, so this was a huge surprise to me. I usually take them as they come out so mom never even sees them and have not had any moms crying for babies or acting like they were looking for them.


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## gegegoatgirl2698 (Feb 1, 2014)

I think my plan now is to part bottle and part dam raise. That way when I go to Iowa for a week at Christmas time my aunt who feeds for me wont have to milk and bottle feed.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I tried to dam and bottle raise the first two years but didn't have much luck and gave up. Some folks have gotten it to work and if you do that's great! But don't be too surprised or disappointed if the kids decide they prefer mom's warm fuzzy teats to a slippery rubber nipple.  

The main thing I learned is don't fight about it. I knew I was doing it wrong when my kids started running from me when they saw a bottle in my hand. I'd tried too hard to win a battle that wasn't worth fighting to begin with. So I put the bottle down and spent that time playing with the kids and letting them climb all over me and eat my hair instead. It was a lot more rewarding for all of us.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I bottle raise due to CAE. Yes, it is an awful lot of work, but it is for the betterment of the herd. I keep them on milk until I dry the does up. So, if they stay in my herd, they are on milk for 7-8 months! I usually have so much milk, I need them to stay on it. By their first fall, they are MONSTERS!

Personally? I HATE bottle kids. I hate tripping over goats who think I am their mother. I don't like them in my personal space ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Friendly is great, but I don't want my goats to be dogs! I have messed up feet from them stepping on mine all the time. Little hoofie bruises and a couple of small bropken bones. And, its just the bottle kids that act like that. The dam raised ones show a bit more respect and give me space, just like I give them their space.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

lovinglife said:


> So something new I am now dealing with regarding the doe I let raise her kid this year as she was so much younger than my bottle babies, I put her back in with the herd and have been tapeing mom, which I detest doing, but seemed she was getting the idea she couldn't nurse anymore, now I go out and find Grandma, who is one of my main milking does is now FEEDING the little brat! This will never end so I will be selling this little milk thief and will never make this mistake again. Grandma has never raised her own kids, so this was a huge surprise to me. I usually take them as they come out so mom never even sees them and have not had any moms crying for babies or acting like they were looking for them.


I had the same problem. I can't keep goats in my herd that are going to being sucking their dams.
I catch the babies as they are born and remove them from the doe's sight, and most of them don't really care.


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## LadySecret (Apr 20, 2013)

I dam raise unless there is a problem (all of my does are CAE negative). I've never had a problem with wild kids. I just handle them a lot during their first few weeks of life. I only milk once a day. Kids get separated at night. I milk in the morning and kids get mom during the day. I like this because I have a busy work and personal life. If I can't milk in the morning for some reason, I don't separate and the kids milk for me. This allows for so much more flexibility.


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