# Newborn kids and funky teats



## loosenuts (Sep 25, 2010)

HI all--

I'm a newbie here and to goats in general, we raised sheep for 28 years but my back can't take the shearing, so we have decided to get into the meat goat business and have a small starter herd of 5 does and nice buck, all 100% Boers.

The last week has been hectic, with kids being born: first was a single doe, then twin bucks, and the day before yesterday we had triplets: buck-doe-buck.

My question is this: Most of my mom does don't have great teat conformation (something I will pay attention to the next buys) and my doe with the triplets has four teats, two small ones next to the good milking ones. The kids are having problems finding the right one, then sometimes give up. It looks pretty logical to tape back the poor one so they always find the good one. 

Has anyone done this?? Does anyone have a suggestion on how to remedy this? I just want to make sure they are getting the milk they need in their first few days and avoid bottle feeding if possible.

ANY help in matter will be deeply appreciated. I don't see why it won't work unless Mom pulls the tape off.

PS: GREAT site you have here, I can see I will be spending some time here getting to know all and the knowledge available!!

TIA, LOOSENUTS


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Well HI there.....and welcome... :thumb:

2x2 clean is OK.... for the boers.... it is normal and excepted in the ABGA ...
the association finally realized that boers.. do have trips and quads and having 4 functionable teats... is the way to go with them.....

are the teats spaced apart from each other or attached?
here is the ABGA teat chart ...which number is closest ...to the teat structure?

http://www.abga.org/teat-structure.php

Keep trying to teach the kid to the teat...you'd be surprised what they can latch onto.....once they know where it is.....unless the teat is clustered ...ect...

Taping the problem teat ...you have to be careful.... as it can cause problems if it gets icky and bacteria can grow risking issues ...one being mastitis....

Can you get pics of it by chance?



> PS: GREAT site you have here, I can see I will be spending some time here getting to know all and the knowledge available!!


 Thank you...we are here to help.... :wink: :thumb: :hi5:


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## loosenuts (Sep 25, 2010)

Thanks for the response, and sorry for the delay, but I have a bunch of kids running around and their mother don't seem to know each other anymore, LOL (maybe another post,) .

At any rate, according to the chart, it looks more like the number two teat configuration, but maybe a little closer. The kids come up and sometimes grab the smaller, non milking one, suck on it for a bit, than stop and go do something else (that's the part I don't like). I have had these goat for maybe 6 months, and try to work them a little bit each day, but this Mom had always been the most skiddish(sp) of the 6 I have, so getting close to her or holding the kids has been a little trying. If I wait until feeding time, then with her head in the bucket, I can mess with the kids a little while my youngest son holds her. (I lose him at the end of the week: back to college). I just want to make sure they are getting enough milk before it's too late. They don't seem to be complaining and they all look decent (for 3-day old kids), but I think you can understand my concern.

I wouldn't keep the tape on long, just a couple days so they get the idea. I just can't be there 24 hrs a day, LOL

Thanks again,
LOOSENUTS :chin:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I would try taping them back and keeping an eye out to see how that works -- and since you handle them daily you can see if its causing any issues to the udder -- but beings the teats are not functioning I cant see the issue with doing so


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## Myakkagoater (Apr 10, 2010)

Two of my kiko-boer does have the smaller teats that are close to the main teats as well. I also noticed at first the kids would try to nurse on them and would get frustrated and leave. But after a while they learn which is the bottle and which is the pacifier. Let mother nature take care of it the best way that she can and see if the little ones won't figure it out for themselves real quick.


I did have a doeling born in August that has an antler teat on one side and a fishtale teat on the other. I don't think I will ever breed her because of this genetic defect. The unfortunate thing is that she is the friendliest kid in the barn. She def. has the best personality of all the herd. I will have to cull her this Easter.  



GL
Tom


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Your Welcome... :wink:



> I have a bunch of kids running around and their mother don't seem to know each other anymore, LOL


 Did you let the momma's and babies bond together...by leaving them in a pen... with their babies alone...so they all know who is who's?



> according to the chart, it looks more like the number two teat configuration


 If the teat isn't touching the other and isn't to close... the kid should be able to suckle OK.... the wee ones will grab the smaller teat....but will discover that there is a better and bigger one near by once they learn it.... just be there and put them onto the working teat...when they want to give up.... it will work.... you have to take the time... if you have to tie up mom...so you can teach them...do so....but ... if you have to stall ... to do this.... it will be easier for you..just leave her in there a few days....... goats are smart and they will catch on pretty quickly.... :wink:

Also make sure ...the good working teats... aren't plugged and milk is coming out from them....

Feel the kids tummy's if they are full...they should be OK.... if they aren't yelling out all the time because they are hungry... things should be good to go...with that full feeling tummy.... and if...they aren't all hunched up....:thumb:



> I wouldn't keep the tape on long, just a couple days so they get the idea. I just can't be there 24 hrs a day, LOL


 good idea....just be careful... :hi5:


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## Hidden Waters Farm (Oct 3, 2010)

This really doesnt pertain to what your asking but, When I raised bottle babys they always prefer the Pritchard teat (puny teat made for sheep) over the black pop bottle one. I'm pretty sure its because its smaller and in their mind better because its easier to drink. 

I think thats your case as well, other then you kids are Dam raised.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I totally agree, leave it alone and just make sure they are getting milk. Our doe that kidded a few days ago has teats like you described. The buckling was having no issues, but the doeling was. I had to help her latch on, but now she has figured it out on her own, and she knows where the food is. Of course I do still observe when I am out to make sure they are nursing. 

Good Luck, and Congrats on all the new kids!


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## loosenuts (Sep 25, 2010)

HI all--

Just an update for you people, my slow learner is picking up which one is the 'bottle' and seems to be getting the milk she needs. Thanks for all the help and responses, too!
Her sister was just such a fast learner, and being a newbie I'm sure I was worrying too much. I have had the chance to watch and reCK'd mom's teat for milk and the kids seem to be getting their fill.

It's still uncanny how all four does had their 8 kids together within a week! :chin: :chin: By the way, I have them all in an old stable we have as it's been hovering around 10 degrees at night. They all seem to be getting a nice start on life and bounce around more each day.

I'll give it a few more days and see if I can figure out how to post some pics here!

Again, thanks for all the help


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Congrats....glad things are going well....love to see pics.... :hug: :hi5: :thumb:


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## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

My doe that just kidded has the 4 teats also but they all work. The smaller ones just are not as big so the milk comes out slower. I didn't know if they would work or not. But the babies not go for the larger teats so they can get their fill faster LOL.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Glad to hear your kids are doing well Loosenuts, I tell you last yr I had some trips from a two teated Boer, they would suck for a second or two then wander off like they were ADD. They never complained like they were hungry but it sure drove me nuts!
I have a couple does with 4 teats only two working but kids figure out real quick which faucets produce!


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

This is from the USBGA judges handbook under the heading:The Reproductive Organs.


> The does should have a well-formed mammary system. It should have good attachment with no more that two separated functional teats per side. Ideally does should have one functioning teat per side. The bucks should have two large well-formed equal sized testes in a single scrotum. The apex of the scrotum should have a split no longer than 1 inch (2.5 cm). Circumference of the scrotum varies with age. A yearling buck should have a circumference of 10 inches (25. cm) a two year old buck should have a circumference of 12 inches (30.5 cm). Teat structure on bucks should consist of no more than 2 separated teats per side. The ideal is one teat per side.
> Slight to Serious Defects
> 1. Testicles that twist when buck walks
> 2. Double (2) orifices in a non split teat
> ...


Any breeding animal should conform to this standard. Whether it is registered or not, whether it will be shown or not. This standard is put in place for the betterment of the boer breed. As you can see there is little tolerance for multi-teated animals, bucks or does, a single teat, per side, being "Ideal", as quoted. The use of breeding animals with less than ideal structure is actually contributing to the downward spiral of the breed and increasing the frequency of the flaw in the general population of boer goats nationwide. The ABGA puts less emphasis on teat structure but only for political reasons....I follow the USBGA guidelines with my breeding herd: 2 teated boer goats .....JMO


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> The does should have a well-formed mammary system. It should have good attachment with no more that two separated functional teats per side. Ideally does should have one functioning teat per side. The bucks should have two large well-formed equal sized testes in a single scrotum. The apex of the scrotum should have a split no longer than 1 inch (2.5 cm). Circumference of the scrotum varies with age. A yearling buck should have a circumference of 10 inches (25. cm) a two year old buck should have a circumference of 12 inches (30.5 cm). Teat structure on bucks should consist of no more than 2 separated teats per side. The ideal is one teat per side.
> Slight to Serious Defects
> 1. Testicles that twist when buck walks
> 2. Double (2) orifices in a non split teat
> ...


 Sorry but ...I don't agree with 1x1 clean only Boer Does.... Seems like USBGA is behind on the times....other associations are permitting 2x2 clean's now ...as it is more logical with the boers... as they have multiple kids... alot more than other breeds... and need to feed each of them.. at the same time.... Try feeding trips on 1x1 clean...as momma ...won't stand still ...after the 2 stronger kids are done... just for 1 kid.... so that poor kid has to be supplemented.... 

This is the ABGA standards below...as you can see... they disagree with USBGA standard....

DOES
Does should have well formed udders with good attachment with the number of functional teats not to exceed two per side. A split teat with two distinctly separated teats and openings with at least 50% of the body of teat separated is permissible but teats without a split are preferred. It is most important that the udder is constructed so that the offspring are able to nurse unassisted.
A. Kidding or Pregnancy Does must have kidded or exhibited pregnancy by 24 months of age.
Faults : Udder and teat abnormalities or defects to include but not limited to oversized or bulbous teats, pendulous udder.
Disqualifications: Cluster teats, fishtail teats or a doe that has not kidded or exhibited signs of pregnancy by 24 months of age.



> Any breeding animal should conform to this standard. Whether it is registered or not, whether it will be shown or not. This standard is put in place for the betterment of the boer breed. As you can see there is little tolerance for multi-teated animals, bucks or does, a single teat, per side, being "Ideal", as quoted. The use of breeding animals with less than ideal structure is actually contributing to the downward spiral of the breed and increasing the frequency of the flaw in the general population of boer goats nationwide. The ABGA puts less emphasis on teat structure but only for political reasons....I follow the USBGA guidelines with my breeding herd: 2 teated boer goats .....JMO


 It all depends on... what association you are in... and what is best for you and your heard.... for standards.... 
To each his own... registered or not....some don't have to have perfect animals ...a good example is ... brush management...they are just made to eat down...and help keep fire danger down.....those type of producers.. cannot buy or take the time... to pick and choose ...an animal.... because they have a fault.... It just doesn't work that way... it also doesn't change the registered animals what so ever .....cause these animals ...are never going to be in the registry...to mess anything up......another example is... the meat only producers ....teat structures.. doesn't matter...and again ...they will not be put into the registry....this is my opinion...as well as others with the boers.....I know alot of different breeder types and ...I respect them all.....
Always remember that ....the genetic pool...can throw flawed animals...even if you have perfect animals.........and... that will never change... :2cents: :2cents:  :wink:


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

the abga allows Deformed goats because they have already ennobled some of them...All Eggsfile bucks are notoriously multi-teated and throw multi teated offspring. Notice they have No teat structure listed for bucks? Wonder why?....They can't very well now Dis-Allow the deformed creatures that some of their "Famously Ennobled Bucks" throw....so they simply modify the standard because They really can't double back and Unennoble goats now can they? And they certainly wouldn't want anyone to question their previous decisions so they just shift the standard to better fit and claim that teat structure on bucks is meaningless. Believe That?...Might want to check this out before you pay your yearly dues because these rule changes are only going to get worse come March....and the USBGA and the IBGA are one in the same...the ABGA is the "stand alone"...just they way they want it....When/if you show at a USBGA/IBGA sanctioned show, COUNT on the judge lifting the goats leg to have a look under the hood...COUNT on being passed over if your animal has more than 2...jmo...or better yet call the ADGA and ask them if they allow multi teated anything...and they are milk goats so they should Like extra milk holes....Or is the ABGA in its infinite wisdom bettering the breed by allowing this defect? I agree the gene pool can throw anything it likes but there is No sense promoting a defect by Allowing it into the standard....JMO again


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> the abga allows Deformed goats because they have already ennobled some of them...


Sorry but.... ABGA doesn't call.... 2x2 clean teats deformed ..... 
I have been to sanctioned shows ...to where... the judge didn't even look under the hood.....so....it is some judges... that are not...doing their job....and inspecting the animals ...as they should.....for real defects... such as fused, badly split ect..... 



> All Eggsfile bucks are notoriously multi-teated and throw multi teated offspring.


 I am sorry but... it isn't just E.G.G.S (Eggsfile) lines ...that throw the multiple teats.... they are just like ...any other gene pool.. of any bloodline....it is how you match up ...your buck and Doe... :scratch:



> Notice they have No teat structure listed for bucks? Wonder why?....They can't very well now Dis-Allow the deformed creatures that some of their "Famously Ennobled Bucks" throw....so they simply modify the standard because They really can't double back and Unennoble goats now can they? And they certainly wouldn't want anyone to question their previous decisions so they just shift the standard to better fit and claim that teat structure on bucks is meaningless. Believe That?..


 I don't see IBGA mentioning teat structure either....in a buck, I believe none of the associations mention buck teat structures...they just go by the Doe teat specs ....

This is IBGA teat structure rules ..which indicate again 2x2 
and 3x3....until January 1, 2011... They also realized the importance of multiple teats because the boers throw multiple kids and recognize this as well....
http://www.intlboergoat.org/breedstandards.php
E. DOES:

A doe should have a well-developed, wide udder that is firmly attached, not hanging low with pendulous teats. Boer goats were developed to produce multiple kids. For this reason South African producers selectively bred them to have more than the two teats that other goats have in order to feed triplets and quadruplets. While one or two functional teats per side is the preferred udder structure, three functional teats per side are acceptable until January 1, 2011, at which time these breed standards will change to allow not more than two functional teats per side. A split teat is acceptable if it is not joined for more than 50% of its length. A double-orifice teat is acceptable if the end is not too large for a newborn kid to nurse unaided.

this is where I got the info from above....



> When/if you show at a USBGA/IBGA sanctioned show, COUNT on the judge lifting the goats leg to have a look under the hood...COUNT on being passed over if your animal has more than 2


 I am sorry but....I am not understanding.... where you are getting your info... about the teat structure....when it states the opposite... of what you are saying....as you have only mentioned ABGA ... that is choosing 2x2 teat structure... :scratch: 
http://www.intlboergoat.org/breedstandards.php

not sure about the USBGA standards... can't seem to find it..to see what they indicate there.... :doh:



> or better yet call the ADGA and ask them if they allow multi teated anything...and they are milk goats so they should Like extra milk holes...


 I do believe in... the 1x1 clean... in any dairy breeds.....that is only logical...and common sense..... as they are bred to produce milk....and need to be milked either by our hands or milking equipment........ :wink:



> .Or is the ABGA in its infinite wisdom bettering the breed by allowing this defect?


 Again.... 2x2... isn't a defect in the boers.....ABGA isn't the only one that allows them.......IBGA standards allows 2x2 also... plus... they mentioned... for a short time... they would allow 3x3... which is unusual.... :scratch:



> I agree the gene pool can throw anything it likes but there is No sense promoting a defect by Allowing it into the standard....JMO again


 I don't see 2x2 as a defect....I am sorry... just my opinion...... and :2cents: :2cents:


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

2x2 is NOT a defect, it's natural selection in the Boer goat history, Africans found that "Hey, this doe with multiples can feed them all at once!" It's as simple as that. (I'm with USBGA, because the 1st goats brought to AK were USBGA, I have nothing against ABGA or IBGA (except ABGA's recent change of rule 'forbidding' any other Assoc. pedigrees) 
ADGA only allows 2 teated animals for the sake of the milkers hands (goat kids can nurse off smaller teats) and lots of dairies use machines. 
ABGA is allowing 2x2 teated ANIMALS ( not creatures..lol, looks like their standards are producing some great meat goats here) 
I've been to USBGA shows, of course they check 'under the hood', but a structurally correct doe OR buck with 2x2 clean teats will place higher over a less sound goat, they do not judge a goat solely on teat structure. There are many aspects to the Boer breed.


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## Desert Viking Ranch (Jan 17, 2011)

I think you should all take a look at Jack Mauldin's website as of the 19th. The ABGA is attacking more than 1x1 teats on Boers again. While both USBGA and ABGA don't outright say 2 x 2 is unacceptable, there is different language in both to the likes of "preferred" which means that in a closes judging 1 x 1 wins over 2 x 2.

Bottom line is Boers are meat goat - they are SUPPOSE to have more than 2 teats total. Read jack's posting here: http://www.jackmauldin.com/4_teats.htm; it tells much better than me trying to summarize.

As a side note, I'm a USBGA member and just joined ABGA - I am thinking of cancelling my ABGA membership already because of they way that organization is run. At least the USBGA is friendly and doesn't make random changes without member notification (at least since I've been a member anyway). The last ABGA member I spoke with on the phone was very rude and I had all I could do to stay polite.

I wish there was a logical and sensible meat goat association...anyone know of any?


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

USBGA is my choice. they're very friendly though I wish they'd update more! 
I agree almost 100% of the time with what Jack Mauldin writes. he's so down to earth !


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

Desert Viking Ranch said:


> I think you should all take a look at Jack Mauldin's website as of the 19th. The ABGA is attacking more than 1x1 teats on Boers again. While both USBGA and ABGA don't outright say 2 x 2 is unacceptable, there is different language in both to the likes of "preferred" which means that in a closes judging 1 x 1 wins over 2 x 2.


My point exactly....The abga has allowed more than 2 teated goats for years....But NOW they are changing their standards to more closely conform to the USGBA/IBGA. The USBGA clearly outlines how a buck is to be conformed, I posted it earlier and there is a buck clause in there, the ABGA doesn't want to look like they are allowing a deformity by ennobling mulit-teated goats so they are changing their rules, after the fact. So Why if more than 2 teated goats are OK would the ABGA change their standards Now? Just when they have decided to not allow any other registries paperwork into their shows? Seems obvious to me....To get the real answer to this question all you have to do is call each of the 3 registries and simply ask them...."I want to buy a buck and cannot decide between these 2 bucks/does. The first is 2 teated the other is more than 2 teated, other than that they are exactly the same. Which would you recomend?" I can save you the call....It has always been for the USBGA/IBGA now I bet the ABGA had the same answer.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

This is from Jack Mauldin's same site...



> What are the results of Members Polled on 2 teats vs 4 teats?
> 
> There is a poll taking place on one of the major boer goat chat groups asking members whether they prefer 2 teats vs. 4 teats. 4 teats are the preferred teat structure of members by a wide majority. As of the writing of this article, 87% of breeders prefer 4 teats to 2 teats.


 breeders voted and they love the 4x4 teats.........even if ...the standards change ...I really don't think it will change the minds.... of the breeders ....who know... the importance of the 2x2 clean.... most of us.... as breeders...are smarter than some associations on standards..... we have goats..... that are beneficial to feed their trips or quads....and not let them starve...... in the real world.......to have the perfect 1x1 clean....isn't logical.... if you have multiples kiddings..........in my book.... It is sad ....that some breeders are actually cutting off the extra teats.... just to make more money....that is wrong in every way....


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Amen Pam!

If this new standard does take place, I'll be out of both associations.


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## jduwall (Aug 7, 2009)

glad the babies are catching on...congrats... :clap:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Amen Pam!
> 
> If this new standard does take place, I'll be out of both associations.


 :thumb:

I know...Nancy D..... ABGA is getting really ridiculous in their new rules...I really feel alot of breeders are going to switch....

loosenuts...how are the kiddo's doing...they should be growing pretty good by now... ?


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

I'm awaiting a new association???

theres been mutliple lawsuits between USBGA and ABGA.I dont think it will get any better and ya cant just stick a bandaid on this one.

we can all conform to a standard, or we can do what works for us and better the breed in our own way, if that mean breeding 4 teated boers..do it!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Katrina ...I couldn't of said it better my friend...... :hi5: :grouphug: :hug:


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## loosenuts (Sep 25, 2010)

I wanted to let you all know this post has been very enlightening for me, and i can only hope other Boer people feel the same way.

I myself have no intentions of getting into the show ring, or breeding Boer goats for breeding stock. I am a meat eater and know allot of other meat eaters, LOL.
I do have all 100% Boers right now, but will be eventually crossing them down the road, I just wanted to start my herd with some good blood.
My buck is a son of Pa.'s Makers Mark from Max Boer Goats in western Pa.

1/3rd way down the page: http://www.maxboergoats.com/spottedgoats.php

I am happy with his structure and hope to breed him a couple more times before I try trading him off.

I do know I will take a closer look when buying more Does, but that is how we all learn, by reading and doing!

Note, my pics are too big to upload, will have to wait and see if I can figure out what to do.

Again, thanks for all your input!!
LOOSENUTS


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Hey LOOSENUTS ...glad hearing from ya... :thumb: 

I thank you ......for posting this.... it has been very informative.....none the least...  

Nice lines you got there with your boers....... I respect each breeder... on however.... they want to run their goat business/pets ect.....we all... should and not criticize...... because a breeder chooses something..... that another may not truly understand..... or like in their choice....if the goats are well cared for..... can feed their babies ....then..... more power to them.... :thumb: :hi5: 
Happy kidding to you...pics would be good....love seeing the boers... :clap: 

yes ...it is a must.... to look under the hood... :wink: Just watch out for any scars around the teat area or udder area....some weird breeders ...will clip them off ...and create an issue later for the buyer.... a ugly balloon teat...  

Doing Pics....
Keep making them smaller....Do you have windows "Paint" ...you can use that... to make the pics smaller... go to..Paint... resize and skew.. Percentage...horizontal...vertical... try 50% on both.... and save the picture and rename it....try to up load to TGS.... if it says ...still to big ....try it again ...until you get an acceptable size... :wink:


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Loosenuts on looking over your website I am wowed & impressed! VERY nice!


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