# Thoughts on this ND doe?



## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Hi all! I would love to know your thoughts and the pros and cons of this doe. 
Please be as honest as possible, no sugarcoating. 

Would you breed her? She is 2 years old, and miscarried a doeling in July. She would've been a FF had she not miscarried 52 days early, but she still came into milk. She miscarried on July 8th, and these pictures were taken around July 25th-ish. I believe she was milked 10 hours before these pictures were taken. She is polled, and a purebred Nigerian Dwarf. She is registered with the ADGA.
Thanks in advance!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would breed her again. Miscarriage can be so many reasons. I'd certainly give her another shot.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I love her big teats for a nigi. I've got huge hands so tiny teats is are a big problem for me!


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## NorthRidge Farms (Jun 30, 2020)

Definitely a keeper in my books, I wouldn't be afraid to try and breed her again.
I'll start with the pros

Good length in body and neck,
Lovely topline 
good pasterns
decent chine
Very wide!
Good body capacity 
Nice big handle bar teats 
good fore udder attachments.


cons

steep rump
posty legs
Lacking medial ligaments
teat placement is too wide
rear udder arch could be wider.

Overall though she's a very pretty doe:inlove:


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Thanks everybody for your input! We will definitely try her again!

We took her to an ADGA show this Fall with two judges. The show was in PA, and was very competitive with goats from NJ, NY, and PA. Under one judge she finished 11th out of 14 does, and under the other judge she finished last. 
The judges said she wasn’t as ‘sharp’ as the other does, and it made sense. I’m not 100% sure what sharpness is, but I know the other does looked incredibly good! Unfortunately she was at a disadvantage since she was bred late, so she was an FF in a class with 2nd-timers.


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## Goatzrule (Feb 7, 2013)

Go ahead and rebred her. There could have been a number of reasons she aborted.


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

By "sharpness" the judge likely meant a lack of dairy character and angularity.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Oliveoil said:


> By "sharpness" the judge likely meant a lack of dairy character and angularity.


Thank you! Is 'sharpness' something that could be breed into her line genetically, or is it because she is over conditioned?


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

I like her lines. She is very neatly put together. Long neck. Give her another chance


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

This is the buck we are looking at for her. EOTL GY Johnny Cash. 








He isn't proven, put he's got some nice lines behind him.








Should I be worried about a slight inbreeding with them? EOTL Diamonds are Forever is Gracie's (EOTL B Shady Grace) dam's dam.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Johnny Cash! What a good name!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> Johnny Cash! What a good name!


I know, right?!


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

He looks good. Her length and his barrel. He has good lines. Very compact. Is he still very young?


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

I would definitely breed her again. She is still young and has good potential.

I like her overall length and femininity, body capacity and width of muzzle. She has nice fore udder extension as well.
She could use more strength over the top line, she dips and roaches slightly in the chine and loin. She has decent stature, but needs more tightness in the front end and more sharpness with a flat bone pattern throughout. She also lacks levelness in her rump, rear leg angulation, and brisket extension. She has decent width, but could use more, especially in the front. She appears to toe out in the front and rear.
She does have good rear udder height, but needs a better medial which would lead to better teat placement. She has good capacity, but could use more symmetry when viewed from the side.

I think she's a nice doe. I'm not sure about the buck you are looking at. He also appears to have a steep rump. Hard to tell, but he doesn't seem very long either. I think the gold and white buck in your other post would be better for her.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Morning Star Farm said:


> I would definitely breed her again. She is still young and has good potential.
> 
> I like her overall length and femininity, body capacity and width of muzzle. She has nice fore udder extension as well.
> She could use more strength over the top line, she dips and roaches slightly in the chine and loin. She has decent stature, but needs more tightness in the front end and more sharpness with a flat bone pattern throughout. She also lacks levelness in her rump, rear leg angulation, and brisket extension. She has decent width, but could use more, especially in the front. She appears to toe out in the front and rear.
> ...


Thank you so much!

I absolutely agree that the other buck would be better for her, and I would 100% use him except..they're both polled.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Tanya said:


> He looks good. Her length and his barrel. He has good lines. Very compact. Is he still very young?


He is still young, born this year.


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

So he will still grow into his length.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Tanya said:


> So he will still grow into his length.


Yes, he should, hopefully.  
We have the option of using him, or his Dad. I really wanted to use his Dad, until I saw his daughter. 
Johnny Cash's sire Dreahook Dei Gruyere, was bred to Gracie's dam, EOTL C Skyfall, and their breeder wasn't that impressed with the offspring, Big Medicine Nakita. Nakita has smaller teats, that jutted outwards more than Gracie's, and I figured it was probably due to Gruyere since Skyfall seemed to be fine, and Gracie has huge teats.
Johnny Cash's sire is Gruyere, but his dam is EOTL Diamonds are Forever, who is one of the nicest does I've ever seen. Really hoping Johnny Cash gives us something good!


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

I really want to see his babes


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Here are some updated photos of her.  These were both taken on September 19th. I believe she was last milked about 20 hours before these pictures were taken.


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Pretty Girl! She definitely needs more body capacity, which should lead to more udder capacity as well. I still like her udder height, but she really lacks rear udder attachment and a stronger medial would fix her teat placement. That and a stronger topline are what I would breed for.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Morning Star Farm said:


> Pretty Girl! She definitely needs more body capacity, which should lead to more udder capacity as well. I still like her udder height, but she really lacks rear udder attachment and a stronger medial would fix her teat placement. That and a stronger topline are what I would breed for.


Thank you! I'll definitely keep that in mind when we try to breed her! It looks like we might not be able to use Johnny Cash, which I'm actually not to upset about, since it gives us an excuse to search for another buck elsewhere. I'm not super happy about using Johnny Cash's sire, Gruyere, since he doesn't seem to have the greatest lines. But, I don't really wanna spend too much on a buck, and find out later that she isn't pregnant. 








This is Gracie's half sister, Big Medicine Nakita. Nakita's dam was Skyfall, and her sire was Gruyere. She has smaller teats AND has less of a medial suspensory ligament than Gracie, so I'd like to avoid using Gruyere (Nakita's sire) if possible. 








This is Gruyere. 
I really wish we could use EOTL G Jumpin Jack Flash, but they are both polled, and I don't want to risk a hermaphrodite. There are a few studs around us I may be able to use, but I don't want something too expensive. If Gracie can get bred, I really don't mind spending a lot of money on a nice buck for her, but if she can't, I don't want to waste it..


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

That's a good point. It's important to make sure she will carry her kids full term this time. And there will be plenty more years to breed her to a really nice buck if she does.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

We tried to breed her to Johnny Cash and she had no interest! It was the end of her heat cycle and I was worried we drove up for nothing, as she was NOT having him! We were thinking about heading home but I asked to try Gruyere, and she was instantly in love! Crazy, but she was bred to Dreahook Dei Gruyere.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

They do have their preferences! Maybe because he was still a young'un and she wants experience!

I have been trying to get some breeding done, but it seems my Lamancha doe wants to be with the Nubian buck. My smallish, older Nubian doe wants the Nubian buck as well, not the Nigerian I want to breed her to. Nobody seems to want to be bred to my older Mancha buck, poor guy. He is so well bred and sires gorgeous kids, but everyone wants the Nubian. Grrrrrr


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

lottsagoats1 said:


> They do have their preferences! Maybe because he was still a young'un and she wants experience!
> 
> I have been trying to get some breeding done, but it seems my Lamancha doe wants to be with the Nubian buck. My smallish, older Nubian doe wants the Nubian buck as well, not the Nigerian I want to breed her to. Nobody seems to want to be bred to my older Mancha buck, poor guy. He is so well bred and sires gorgeous kids, but everyone wants the Nubian. Grrrrrr


They just have minds of their own! :haha:
I'm told you can duct tape their tails to their back, then duct tape around their barrel, and hold them in place while the buck breeds them. When we went to breed Gracie, the breeder told us that, but we didn't have duct tape and after seeing Johnny Cash in person Gruyere did look like the better choice!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

So..after doing a little bit of research into the linear scores of her D, S, DD, DS, SD, SS, etc. I've discovered that her line really seems to improve with age, specifically in the udder department! I haven't look at all the linear traits, but the majority of her line is in the 87-90 range.  Hoping next year she'll give us some babies and improve her udder. It amazes me what a year or two can do for a goat.  She of course isn't anything to brag about  but I'm just pleased she may have more than I thought to offer in the future. 

I still don't know for sure whether or not she is bred. I think she is messing with me. :hide:


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

FF udder scores are always the lowest, usually mature at age 4...... anything mid 80's and up as a FF is VERY good and promising.


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## Tanya (Mar 31, 2020)

Is Gracie bred?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Did she back into heat after the lovey dovey date with the big cheese?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Tanya said:


> Is Gracie bred?


She better be! I'm uncertain if she went into heat or not. I just don't know. Im afraid if I start to think she is bred, she won't be..


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

MadHouse said:


> Did she back into heat after the lovey dovey date with the big cheese?


No clue! Lol She better be bred!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

CaramelKittey said:


> No clue! Lol She better be bred!


Is she one that has silent heats?


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

MadHouse said:


> Is she one that has silent heats?


Oh no, her heats are very loud! But..either she is having silent heats or she isn't going into heat because I haven't seen any loud heats that I know of since, but she could be having silent heats since it's Winter.

How have all your goats been?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

CaramelKittey said:


> Oh no, her heats are very loud! But..either she is having silent heats or she isn't going into heat because I haven't seen any loud heats that I know of since, but she could be having silent heats since it's Winter.
> 
> How have all your goats been?


I hope for you she is pregnant!
My does have been loud in their heats, especially Willow, but even May has changed. She used to be very quiet about her heats. Now she acts up at milking time (in a well behaved way :lolgoat.
I am trying to get Willow bred, and she had her second date. We shall see what comes off it. :waiting:


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

MadHouse said:


> I hope for you she is pregnant!
> My does have been loud in their heats, especially Willow, but even May has changed. She used to be very quiet about her heats. Now she acts up at milking time (in a well behaved way :lolgoat.
> I am trying to get Willow bred, and she had her second date. We shall see what comes off it. :waiting:


I hope it works for you! I can't wait to see cute baby pictures!


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