# Breeding- How young is too young?



## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

I have a doe kid who is coming on 7 months old. She weighs 85+lbs, and is growing rapidly. How young is too young to breed her? I'd really like to get a kid out of her by next year, seeing as its my last year in 4h, and shes my reserve grand champion doe kid, but i dont want to breed her to early. :help:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

With my boers ....1 year minimum but... I like to wait 1 1/2 years old..... :wink: 

Even though... your Doe... weight wise ...is ready... her mothering abilities... may not be there yet.....she is still a kid yet.... Also... it may stunt growth... breeding to early..... depending on the situation..... :thumb:


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

toth boer goats said:


> With my boers ....1 year minimum but... I like to wait 1 1/2 years old..... :wink:
> 
> Even though... your Doe... weight wise ...is ready... her mothering abilities... may not be there yet.....she is still a kid yet.... Also... it may stunt growth... breeding to early..... depending on the situation..... :thumb:


I was thinking a year as well. BUT if she were bred at 8 months, i could get a march kid.. :GAAH: So conflicted lol. I dont want to risk her health though. onder:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I know it is frustrating ....but it gives them a better chance and allows her to be more mature and ready if you wait.... Right now....she can have the kids if bred with no issues...however... it is just that mentally she is a baby.... and may be stubborn about wanting to feed and care for her kid(s)...you may have to teach her and with some youngsters.. it is work..... this is why... I rather wait.... :wink:


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

We'll be waiting a year for our doe kids, but last year we bred a doe at eight months. She is small, but I think that may be genetic. She was the best mom out of all of our does and did very well. Her kids were a bit big for her, though.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Many people wait until a year, but I've bred 8 month olds with zero problems. I think it is people humanizing goats. She should be perfectly capable and it should not be any more risky than at a year old based on her growing at a proper rate/being the proper weight.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

The only thing I have to add is if she is mentally ready now, then I personally wouldn't have a problem with it. At the same time, she would have another 5 months to mature.

On the other hand, my cross doe, while a loving mother, wasn't the best about letting her kid nurse. She kidded a just a hair over a year old.


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## goatiegurl*Oh (Nov 11, 2007)

Are there some breeds that people tend to wait until they are older to breed them? Maybe the smaller breeds, like Nigerians, Lamanchas, Obers? It seems like a lot of Lamancha breeders wait to breed them until they are yearlings which is what I'm planning to do with mine, but I just wondered if that's what most people do or not and why/why not


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Thanks for all of the replies, everyone! I think im going to go ahead and breed her when she turns 8mo. I think she'd be big enough, and strong enough to carry kids, and i dont think there'll be an issue of mothering. She's a good girl. If she's a bad mother, i can always bottle feed.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I breed all mine at 8 months, a few got out at 7, I only had a issue with one, the kids were preemies and had to take them in to keep warm and were to weak to hold their head up to eat, by the time I took them back out she wanted nothing to do with the one. I just had to hold her every time the kids wanted to eat, but she still called to them and loved on them. I think your right, your doe will be just fine, and if not, force it, you dont want her to think thats the way it goes, pop out kids and you take them.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Thanks for all of the replies, everyone! I think im going to go ahead and breed her when she turns 8mo. I think she'd be big enough, and strong enough to carry kids, and i dont think there'll be an issue of mothering. She's a good girl. If she's a bad mother, i can always bottle feed.


 That is your decision... good luck.... :thumb:


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## Mrndly (Aug 16, 2012)

Hi I was wondering how can you tell if a goat is mentally ready to breed?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Mrndly said:


> Hi I was wondering how can you tell if a goat is mentally ready to breed?


Not sure, but our 8 month old doe was still very "baby like" when we bred her, and she's a stunning momma.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

Mrndly said:


> Hi I was wondering how can you tell if a goat is mentally ready to breed?


Like someone said earlier, i think we are humanizing too much. Goats were made to be bred at 6 months- if they were wild.. I dont see why they wouldnt be ready, unless size was an issue.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Like someone said earlier, i think we are humanizing too much. Goats were made to be bred at 6 months- if they were wild.. I dont see why they wouldnt be ready, unless size was an issue.


 You are right ..they are very humanized and we are responsible for them...by doing this... yes ..they can get preggo at 6 months or younger but... it isn't best for them.........
The reason.. I wait til they are 1 to 1 1/2 years old ...it will help them to achieve their maximum growth and potential....
When they are preggo...it robs from what nutrients... they will need to grow properly.... A lot of the nutrition.. will be fed to her kids within... :wink:


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

HamiltonAcresBoers said:


> Like someone said earlier, i think we are humanizing too much. Goats were made to be bred at 6 months- if they were wild.. I dont see why they wouldnt be ready, unless size was an issue.


From what I've read, wild goat usually breed at 2 years of age. But then again it was wikipedia I read that from. :laugh:


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

As of now, I am planning on breeding my baby doe at 10 months old. I have only owned them for a month, but her mama would have been 7 months old when she was bred. She's now 16 months old, and is very mature and not stunted at all (she's pretty big, right at the tip for size for nigerian dwarfs).


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:thumbup:


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Here's an interesting one-Caprikorn Farms had a doe kid at 8 months old this year. Why they didn't abort the pregnancy is beyond me. I think we can all agree that 3 months is insanely too young.
http://caprikornfarms.com/bing.shtml


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## shibby7 (Feb 20, 2012)

:shocked: yea that's young! They have another one that kidded at 9 months...... and it seems to be something they are proud of and breeding towards :scratch: .



> Kidded 2/10/11 at 8 months and 24 days of age. Like to hook up with WIARA somehow. Maybe save her next son and use him on WIARA
> who kidded at 9 months. A fabulous mammary but not much milk. Just a baby though. This might be the best of 25 yearlings. We used her
> son BING.


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

They actually say they are THRILLED to have a doe that can get pregnant so young. Makes me sick just thinking about a little baby being bred, and maybe its a little extreme, but it in fact seems like rape to me when people force baby girl animals to be bred. Are these people members of this forum? I would like to know, do they have their own children? A daughter maybe? Would they be thrilled for their daughter to get pregnant the first time she ovulates? A mama at the age of 12 or 13?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I am no pro, but from hands on experience I won't breed less than 8mo/100lbs.
All of our does have kidded as young yearlings, and had no problems with being great moms and no kidding problems.

My son bred his 8mo/100lb. 4-H Percentage Boer doe last fall, and she kidded at 13mo and had beautiful twin girls.
We know there is a possability that kidding can stunt growth, but we also knew she'd never be shown ever again either.
She did just fine, was a great mom, and we love her daughters and are keeping them 

As for when they are mentally ready....
I think it depends on how well you know your goats. 
We have the doe I mentioned aboves 6mo/100lb girls, and two 8mo/105+lb. does in a pen together. I can see a huge difference in the way they act. The younger ones are more playful and more 'kidlike' where as the older ones act more like the adults, quiet and laidback.
I was waiting until next month to breed the oldest 2, but we went ahead and turned the oldest one out with the buck last week when she was in heat so we'll see what happens. She's 115-120lbs. And we did buy her and her buddy with the intention to breed this fall for 2013 4-H kids.

We dont' plan to breed the twin 6mo does this year.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

audrey said:


> They actually say they are THRILLED to have a doe that can get pregnant so young. Makes me sick just thinking about a little baby being bred, and maybe its a little extreme, but it in fact seems like rape to me when people force baby girl animals to be bred. Are these people members of this forum? I would like to know, do they have their own children? A daughter maybe? Would they be thrilled for their daughter to get pregnant the first time she ovulates? A mama at the age of 12 or 13?


It's concerning and kind of sad that they have some of the highest producing goats in the country. I found at least 3 others who kidded between 9-10 months old, so it appears they are trying to breed them to be capable of it. They do CAE prevention, so it doesn't matter if they aren't mentally ready. They have some seriously awesome goats too, I don't see why they feel the need to breed them the second they come into heat.


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

Its even more sad to me that they are being rewarded by judges in the show ring. If they placed dead last, instead of grand champion, maybe they would reconsider? 

Like, I got no love for people who breed puppies on their first heats, or 2 year old fillies either.


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## TheMixedBag (Oct 16, 2010)

Judges may or may not know when their does were bred. I'm surprised the kids don't end up stunted.

Now, I'm not normally one for bashing someone else's pracrices, we all run things the way we want. However, I cannot think of a single good reason to breed a 3 month old. Her page even said the lactation was crap. No way would it increase her overall production record anywhere near enough to justify breeding a baby. My 5 month old isn't even close to ready, and she's got months on those kids.


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

Yeah, I feel kind of bad that I am new here, and getting all uppity about it LOL! That makes sense that the judges wouldn't know how old they were, duh, I didn't even think of that.


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## shibby7 (Feb 20, 2012)

To each their own I guess, but that's not for me. My three & four month old's are BABIES, I couldn't imagine breeding them that young.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

IMO it's not good to breed before at least 8 months old. I can't imagine a baby getting bred at 3-4 months old, so awful  
Let them grow, mature, and 'be a kid' before putting such a burden on them. 

BTW, how is it that a judge wouldn't know their age? what am I missing?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Sadly there are many people that belive that once a animal can breed they will get bred. Whats even more sad is the fact that that kid can breed at 3 months because she is so healthy, just think of how nice of a doe she would have been if they waited till a better age. I admit I breed younger then others (about 8 months depending on size), but I look at my 3 month old babys out there and I have to agree that is so sad, I would rather not take the risk of her making it threw having the kid.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Everyone does things in different ways.....I go by age as opposed to size, a baby is a baby...regardless of breed or type of animal and some species are considered adults at 6 months old.

I had an accidental breeding here when Angel was 4 months old...I was a nervous wreck the entire 5 months, and thankfully, though she is a pygmy/nigerian cross, she exceded in growth from the time she was born and even with all my worry, she snuck a little doeling out before I knew she was even in labor! Angel was a wonderful young mama but she was still very baby like herself with her actions and personality.

Even in wild animals such as a goats close cousin, the whitetail deer, when rut comes around in fall...fawns born from late April to mid June, bucks and does alike are not part of the breeding practices of the same fall in the year they are born...even though the doe fawns begin having their first heats at 5 and 6 months old, they are usually still with their mothers until the following spring and it's the older does who are protective over the doelings and keep rutting mature bucks at bay. Buck fawns are not strong enough in size or age to compete for breedings during that same year so they band together as juveniles when their moms push them out on their own, the following years rut is when a young buck deer takes part in the cycle.
Long story short, even though we domesticated/humanized goats...in the wild they are similar to deer...does kick bucklings away as a means to prevent in breeding and to prevent breedings of doelings too young, the strong, mature animals are the ones who participate in the reproduction cycle. I'm sure there are those who do go outside what is known about a deer's rut practice but I would think that it is so rare otherwise it would be documented by the observers.

To each is their own but from what I understand, if you have a commercial herd...each goat needs to have a place in production, but with breeding a doeling very young, it can actually decrease the years she has as a productive member of a herd....just as a breeding buck's life span is shorter than a wether due to the rigor's of his job, a breeding does lifespan is shortened as well due to the "risks" of birth complications, the dietary risks involved with pregnancy toxemia...and the older a doe gets those seem more prevalent.
On a "soft hearted" standpoint though...yes, I am guilty of "humanizing" my animals....all of them, not just my goats, and when I have kids born, I cherish each new life and rejoice in their un complicated arrivals and know that I helped produce a sturdy, hardy kid that is beneficial to the breed and want to see that kid get the maximum care needed for growth and maturity to be able to pass along the hardiness in their own kids when given the chance to mature and grow to their potential.
Besides that.... owners have a certain way they relate to their goats...when seen as a "baby" they are loved and coddled as one and I think we all know that goats thrive on attention, when that "baby" is put into the chosen role as a "pregnant doe"...the attitude shifts to more of worry about growth, feeding practice and then concern over wether or not the delivery will be a good one..... you don't see your "baby doe" as a baby any longer, even though she may only be 8 months or even 6 months old, her role in the herd as well as in your mind changed.
As I said, I treat my animals as though they are human...and I always will...my goats are so much better as friends to me than some of the "humans" I know.

And Hoosiershadow.... when the comment was made about the judge not knowing the age...I think it was meant that when a kid/yearling is shown, the judges don't always know the age of the dam at time of delivery. They just know the birthdate of the kid on display.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I can sort of see the point in breeding young from a commercial standpoint, the sooner that doe is producing the less money you are wasting on feed without getting anything back from her. From a financial point of view, the earlier a doe starts earning her keep, the better. Also from a genetic progress point of view, your young stock should be your better stock if you are making genetic progress, and if you are aiming for a particular goal if you can shorten the interval between generations you are going to improve your herd much more quickly. 

However having said all that, I still dont see the point in breeding a doe to kid down at 8 or 9 months old, simply because the breeder in question is saying that these young does arent actually milking very well. I would question as to whether they are actually earning their keep. If they could stand up to a decent lactation then I would say go for it, breed them young, but since the lactation is no good I really dont see the justification. 

I breed mine to kid around 2 years old, but thats mainly because I show them and want them to grow out really well. I did breed some of my boers to kid down at 12 - 13 months and they had no problems birthing and milking but they (the mums) didnt grow as big as some of my others who were left to kid down at 2 yrs. Their babies grew really well though. I think from a commercial standpoint getting a return from your doe, kidding at 12 - 14 mths is fine, I just dont do it because I show. And I really think kidding down at 8 - 9 months is a bit extreme.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I agree Keren. It seems they have some older does, so, I don't think breeding young has reduced their longevity. I think the larger dairy does can produce earlier...I bred Lucy at 9 mos old and 85lbs or so. She came through fine. Not sure how long she will milk, she seems to be milking less right now, may be the weather, or that I haven't gotten any alfalfa yet (coming next week). She's just getting pellets/grain and browse. 

How does everyone feel about "breeding back" Nigerians, quickly? I see several of the "big" Niggy farms breed their does right back. One in particular, breeds does back 8 weeks after they kid. I saw in one case a doe that had 8 kids that year! Now, that's production. I'm sure she has a waiting list a mile long.

I did that this year. I bred everyone back, it wasn't 8 weeks, more like 12+ weeks, I guess. I've never done it before. And the weather has me "re-thinking" if this was OK. It's been pretty hot...but...the girls seem to be fine. Everyone is huge. But, it's cooled off now, so it's more like a normal, fall almost. Hopefully, I can sell these kids...we'll see. But, I need hay money, and I just found out hay (alfalfa) is going to cost me $6/bale, this year. At lease I found some, it's pretty good too. So, at least for now, everybody works at my farm. I've lost my "breed dates", however, so this should be fun... :doh:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Omg they have a deposit of $2300 for kids from a particular doe ... that is only the deposit ... 

Do show goats really sell for that much over there?? Thats insane!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Di said:


> How does everyone feel about "breeding back" Nigerians, quickly? I see several of the "big" Niggy farms breed their does right back. One in particular, breeds does back 8 weeks after they kid. I saw in one case a doe that had 8 kids that year! Now, that's production. I'm sure she has a waiting list a mile long.


I don't like that. For me that's treating a goat like a baby-making machine. They are not machines and we shouldn't push our quotas on them. Their bodies need time to rest. We need to respect how they live naturally.

Of course, this is just my opinion. I'm not very expirienced. But I do know that the more we push them, the faster they will burn out. I just feel we should value their life and their comfort, not just their milk and babies, even as we're trying to make a profit.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Well said Woodhaven. :thumb:

I also don't agree with repeatedly breeding does like that. Sometimes it is ok now and then...but to continuously breed does weeks after every kidding...it is hard on their bodies and they generally won't hold up in the long run. Some breeders who do this are more concerned with making money then the doe's well being. Not everyone...just some are like this. Most well respected breeders I know...kid their does out only once yearly. :thumb:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Weeks after kidding or just after they have weaned the kids? I disagree with right after kidding, but the way Im doing my goats right now they kid, they keep their kid for about 3 months, then are weaned and about 2 months after that they come back into heat and are bred. I noticed the ones that give all to their kids take a bit more time to come back in heat, but still to be on the safe side are put away from the buck till I am happy with their weight. Liz and karen are right there are 2 different ways to do any kind of livestock, the 'money' way and the 'heart' way. I have been raised livestcok is livestock, but even with being raised that way I still have my heart in it so I guess I am stuck in the middle. Still one of the reasons why I went with meat goats is the fact that they can breed all year long and in the long run get more kids out of them and I belive that if you keep them on their feet and healthy they will do just as good as the ones bred every year. I even have one doe that is very old, she only has 3 long teeth, she kidded in feb, but since she is a 'pet' that will be the last time she will be bred even though she is still fat as can be and acts like she is young, I think she has earned the right to retire and go out happy as can be.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

We were referring to breeding them right away after kidding or very recently afterwards. Usually if you breed them only once a year or close to that, they last longer. (=

I completely understand the need to make ends meet. But I also beleive that even if you don't consider your goats pets, they are still our responsibility and we should be good to them and make their quality of life a priority. :thumb:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

^^^^100% agree, even the ones that go to meat are loves and fed well (not just for more money). Everything that is alive gets one chance at life and I too agree that that life should be a good one no matter what.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

> I agree Keren. It seems they have some older does, so, I don't think breeding young has reduced their longevity. I think the larger dairy does can produce earlier...I bred Lucy at 9 mos old and 85lbs or so. She came through fine. Not sure how long she will milk, she seems to be milking less right now, may be the weather, or that I haven't gotten any alfalfa yet (coming next week). She's just getting pellets/grain and browse.
> 
> How does everyone feel about "breeding back" Nigerians, quickly? I see several of the "big" Niggy farms breed their does right back. One in particular, breeds does back 8 weeks after they kid. I saw in one case a doe that had 8 kids that year! Now, that's production. I'm sure she has a waiting list a mile long.


Di.... I think it is common practice to breed the larger dairy does at around 9 months old and a good weight, but the ongoing posts about age of does when first bred came about from the post made on a "well known" dairy goat farm that breeds their does as young as 3 & 4 months.... I do feel that at that age, any breed doe is just too young.
I don't like the idea of breeding back to back.... I milk my does and use up everything they want to give, for as long as they tell me they're willing...most of the time they will slack in production around September/October, which is the time I have them bred and start drying them off. My girls are usually fresh for 7-8 months then a dry period while they are pregnant....If they were bred as soon as the late winter kids were weaned at 8 weeks, they'd not be giving their potential in milk production as they would be dried off by August to kid again in September...I simply can't justify dragging my does down and losing milk to have "extra" kids born the same year.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

Hmmm. Great topic guys! I have to agree that breeding a 3-4 month old kid is insanity. I don't think its a good idea to manage our goats in a way that is contrary to their nature. As Liz pointed out, if our goats were wild, they would likely not be bred until 9-12 months at the earliest because of how much longer they would be on their dams before being naturally weaned. We generally, as humans, pull kids much earlier than nature intended. 

I personally won't breed before the doe is nine months old, and even then I take their mental and physical condition into consideration. If she is more similar in behavior to a fully mature doe than a kid, and I feel she is of good size and body condition, then I have no qualms with it. This leaves them kidding no earlier than 14 months, which is over a year. I don't feel that this is cruel, etc. Any younger would make me nervous, and going any younger than six months would give me moral issues..but thats me. Also, for someone who insinuated breeding two year old fillies was wrong....I think the same applies. Take into consideration their mental/physical maturity, etc. Normally I would say no, simply because I don't even start horses until two and a half, and don't push them to be athletic at that point. If you are breeding for profit, you really need to make sure that the mare is proven enough under saddle, that she is athletic enough to be valuable in some market, to consider breeding her. Thats my opinion, if you want to make any money at all on the foal. You need to be able to market that foal by pointing to what his/her parents can do, and you just aren't able to do that with a foal from a mare bred at two. ALL of that being said, I bred a 2.5 year old filly. Her height topped out early and she started filling out early (her parents were short, so it wasn't unexpected). She was mentally and physically mature enough and in the wild, she would have been bred. Not messing with a horse's natural breeding practices in this way... I felt confident in her athletic ability simply from her insistence on doing sliding stops and roll backs in the field and from her parents abilities, I knew she had a stellar mind...and it was my only chance to use the stallion. You betcha I did it and don't feel bad. Vet said that she was more than capable and mature enough. I love the filly she produced and wouldn't trade her for the world...and that foal was for me, not for business.

As far as back to back breedings with the goats, I wouldn't breed sooner than four months after kidding with kids being weaned at two and a half months. I don't think its wise to do every single year, but once every few kiddings I think it is absolutely OK for a doe as long as she is in good condition and thriving. There are times when you want to "reset" a kidding date for a doe...so she will kid at a certain time of year for you, etc. I think it really is all case by case and discretion. I re-bred a doe this year four months after she kidded because she is in excellent shape and I knew exactly when I wanted her to kid out because I know when I want the babies weaned. Still feel perfectly OK with that decision. Many professional horse breeders breed mares back on foal heat, very quickly after foaling. But mares take so long to carry a baby, and are not milk machines like dairy goats...nor do they produce multiples (well, twins are rare and usually a tragedy)...so its a whole different story there.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Yes, Firelight, I agree, that with a long gestation, horses have an advantage when bred younger (although, I've never bred a 2 year old horse), when I bred horses, it was an Arab, and she was 5 yrs. old. Arabs mature pretty slowly, so it's advantageous to wait on them.

I found my breeding chart (yeah), and the does I re-bred for fall, were about 3 months post birthing. So, kids were already weaned and gone. The girls were in fantastic shape. I was only milking 2, (of the Nigerians) and I dried them off pretty soon after they were bred. I had a weak (broke) moment and decided to re-breed. They are all doing really well. Thank you, Lord.

Back to the original topic. I did understand that they were breeding young...I noted that even so, they had some older does, so I was commenting that maybe breeding young did not seem to effect their longevity. I would never breed them that young on purpose, for sure! I wonder if they "retire" them, or just continue to breed? I've heard of folks buying from them...never seen any...but I don't get to many shows. And, yeah, they are expensive! :roll: 

So, we'll see how my does do this time. I do plan to "take the load off" if they have quads this time, I'll pull a couple and bottle feed. I would not want to breed back regularly. My goats are pets also, and I wouldn't want to see them hurting. I probably won't re-breed them back again, I may just give them the spring off. And, get back on a "natural" breeding schedule. We'll see how this goes. Maybe the "big" Nigerian farms breed back so quickly because they bottle feed... onder:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Di, I think you are right about the bottle feeding and breeding back. I have one doe that for some reason has a milk issue and I have to bottle feed her kids, she comes back into heat not to long after kidding and I think because she is not supporting the kid. I dont breed her then because even though I am bottle feeding the kids she is still mom and shows them the ropes. The other 'normal' does will not come into heat till after I pull their kids and they dry up.


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