# Life in the CAE Lane



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Simon and Nellie. Simon is a grade nubian wether with very poor confirmation. Nellie is a reg. nubian doe with very good confirmation. What do these two goats have in common? Both tested positive for CAE. As many of you may know we recently tested our 8 goats, it never crossed my mind that one of our goats could have it. But two have it. Both goats are very special to me in different ways. Simon, who I have had since September 2006, is like the brother I never had. We saved him from a sale barn when he was two weaks old. He came from ''bad'' owners and was in very poor shape. Now he is in great shape and is adorable. He loves me so much. I had plans on having him till he was 30 or 40. Now those plans may be shattered. Nellie is the start and star of our Nubian herd. I have had her since January 06, 2007. With her Hoanbu and Kismet bloodlines, I had plans on showing her in any show possible. She is almost 3. [In case you haven't noticed, both goats came from sale barns.] But why me? I am the one who went to an ''only cares about her herd'' goat barn super at fair and told her that I was woried because it looked like another goat had foot rot [turns out it was a broken leg, which is still bad]. I am the one who cleans her barn every day. I am the one who has tons of plans for her herd, from what feeder I need, to what buck I will buy. I am the one who spends her school time on the goat spot to learn everything I can about Caprines. I am the one has every goat book in the world and will read Hoegger catalogs for days. And at times, I am the one who loves her goats more than people. Yet it isn't always as perfect as it seems. I am the one with a nice alpine who has never kidded yet has a ''mastitic'' udder the size of a good milker. Her show career is probably ruined. With a vets ok, we recently had her bred. It may cure her mastitis, or it could kill her. ''Do or Die'' with Hannah. I am the one who's doe Nellie aborted over a month before she was due. The kid ripped in pieces and and came out backwards. We had to have a friend help. It was our first kidding experiance. It could have killed her and she was very upset. [Yet if she would have went full term and delivered a live kid, we wouldn't have known she had CAE and she would have passed it to her kid, sometimes God does things for a reason.] I am the one whose two new goats ran away last March and we haven't seen them since. One was days old. We only had them home for about 10 minutes when they broke out. And now, I am the one with 1/4 her herd infected with CAE. Enough gibbering, what should I do? Nellie is bred and due in March. The vet said she should be seperated during lactation. 10 months by herself, I don't think so. As long as I throw away his needles, Simon can stay with the herd, the vet said. Simon is very special to me, is there anything I can do for him? I read about CAE and it says 90% of the goats who have it live there full life with out showing any signs. That makes me feel a little better about Simon. I once saw a goat at a friends with very acute CAE, it was awful. I don't want that to happen to either of them, espeically Simon. It is like finding out your brother has incurable cancer for me. What should I do?


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

First off I am sorry for you that you are having all these struggles BUT I wouldn't give up - doesn't sound like you are a quitter anyway.

As for Simon - well unless he shows great signs of discomfort I would let him live his life out to the fullest with you. He sounds like a great friend and you need that.

As to your Nellie. Why not pull the kids and raise them on replacer? The milk won't hurt you so you can drink it OR you can just pasterize it and feed it to the kids. 

I would also, if you have the money, retest those two just to be sure. Sent it to another lab. Just like in cancer (since you used that correlation) you need to get second oppions before you dive into treatment. 

Good luck girl - you can do this.


----------



## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

Can you maintain two seperate herds? If so can you seperate Simon and Nellie into their own herd? It sounds awful but since you do have two, they would have company.

I have never had CAE so I can't really suggest things for that except that the babies could be pulled (at least the doelings) and bottle raised so that their chances of getting it would be very low. Then no matter what Nellie's future is, she will live on in her girls.

I know what it is like to try to cope with such unhappiness as I had a goat with very, very bad CL and it went from bad to worse. It was hard on the goat and on me. I'm so sorry that you have to have this problem too.


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks! I do't think I can have two herds. We are low on space as it is. The goats have a very nice barn and pasture. The only other usable spot is where I was planing on keeping a buck. Simon doesn't concern me when it comes to transferring it to other goats. Yes, we are going to bottlefeed her kids. But, we have other does due. Do you think they would nurse her? We have a spot to put kids, do you think it would be worth it to pull all kids and bottle feed ALL of them. That would be about 10 kids. Also, I went to Fias Co Farms and it said that immune boosters may help prevent positive goats from actually getting the disease, anyone heard of that? I would be interested.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I doubt the kids will try to nurse her since if they are not her kids she will butt them away. Very rarely does a doe allow a kid that is not hers to nurse freely.


----------



## jBlaze (Oct 9, 2007)

It is possible for CAE to be transmitted from infected saliva or feces I have heard, so your wether could pass it along, less likely, but certainly possible. What are your plans for the positive doe is what you need to figure out. Tough decision for sure. If you are going to keep her, are you going to risk the rest of the herd, or are you going to maintain two herds. If you would sell her, you can seperate her and the wether from the herd, wait till she kids, snatch her babies, then sell her and raise the kids on negative or pasturized milk. Of course you still need to decide what to do with the wether, he is perfect company for her. 
I would definetly re-test the whole herd later, to see if they did get it, but was too early to show up yet. Espically any does due to kid. 
CAE so totally sucks, I know. I have similar problem. I have maintained the positives with great genetics in a seperate area for more than 6 months, and when the doe kids, I will keep the babies and sell the others. Even though I have two does due to kid ahead of her I have frozen negative colustrum in case. 
And then if you show, your show animals just may get it at the shows for sure. The whole thing is just rotten! In order to market your animals, you have to proove them at shows, and be able to say no CAE, but they get it at the shows, but sure hard to do both! Grrrr. And then you get the folks who have strange philosophies about it and how it is or is not transmitted and those that lie about tests. And then you have the kids raised on pasturized milk that will test positive for the antibodies but don't actually have it, because the antibodies last through pasturization, but the virus does not. Grrrr. :veryangry: :veryangry: :hair: :sigh: :veryangry: 
Yes, I feel your frustration, and have not found a suitable answer myself. sorry to rant on and on.


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks, but I am certainly not selling her. That is completly out of the question. There is only one place she would go and we all know where that is. I am mostly worried about the kids, hers and everyone elses. Both goats have been in our herd for over a year, so what is the chance they would pass it on now? Before I knew she had it, I went to see if she had milk when she aborted. I milked out a little colustrum in the pen, nothing happened. The chances of that happening are slim enough to say it isn't going to happen. If it does, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.


----------



## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I am very sorry this has happened, my sympathy. Like Stacey said, you could try sending blood samples off to a different lab and see what you get. Can I ask what lab did you send these samples to?

CAE is such a touchy subject and I don't like to talk about it a lot. But from talking to breeders, I get two different drifts. Some say CAE is the most horrible thing in the world, others say that if you manage it well CAE is not as bad as it seems. Personally, I agree with the latter. I talked to a breeder who had goats for almost 20 years and had a well known herd(she sold out last year due to health issues) She said that she all of her goats tested negative year after year, even though she had 3 positive goats in with them. She milked the 3 positive ones last and threw their milk away and kept them in the same pen with the negatives. year after year no negatives came up positive. I talked to another breeder that said that they sent 3 samples from the same goat off to 3 different labs and never got the same answers back. That breeder also told me she sent 2 samples from each goat to the same lab, marked one with a number and the other sample with a name. Numbered samples came back positive and named samples came back negative. Kids that have been raised on pasturized milk from a positive CAE dam will still test positive even though they don't have it because they are carrying dead anti bodies in them.

My honest opinion about CAE? If they aren't showing any outward signs and are not in any pain or suffering, and are of some value to your herd, they should be left to live, pull their kids and raise them on milk from a negative dam. Now, if they show the symptoms of hard udders, chronic, incureable pneumonia, encephalitis or chronic painful arthritis, I would put them down.

I would recommend testing your goats yearly for CAE since you have had two pop up positive. For your Nellie, I would recommend pulling her kids at birth, don't even let her see them, and raise them on milk from a negative dam.

That is just my view on CAE.


----------



## ozarksvalley (Nov 22, 2007)

I totally agree with Sarah. CAE, imo, is not the end of the world. I have heard of goats that tested positive living to ripe old ages without a whole lot of pain. If they are in pain, there are products designed to help with it. Fir Meadows is one place that sells herbal stuff like this.

http://firmeadowherbs.tripod.com/

Of course, you can't do this now since she is bred, but you could've given the herb, Sage, to your doe with the precocious udder. I am assuming that you milked her since her udder is so big? Her hormones have obviously went wild- a thing which could have been fixed. I had a doe with a precocious udder- I fixed the problem with research and TLC. I know you went to the vet- but please remember alot of vets claim they know it all but don't, and I have not found one yet that even tries to think of the natural way to do things. Alot of the chemicals available today CAUSE the problems, not fix them. Grains are also pumped full of hormones and junk, no wonder our animals' diseases are increasing with us people's.
I would not have resigned myself to getting a doe bred and saying, either she dies or she doesn't. I'm sorry, but that does not seem like loving a goat more than a person.

It sounds to me like you need to do some herb and natural research. Many of the problems you have listed with your goats could have been prevented. Humans and animals both were created with systems that fix themselves- providing they are not deficient in anything or some toxic substance has invaded their body. 
I also suggest that you stop thinking about all you have done for your herd, and start thinking on the brighter side about what you still CAN do. And stop thinking, why did it happen, and start thinking about what you can do about it.

I am not in any way saying you are not doing a good job- you are doing your best I am sure because you love your goats. All I am saying is that having goats is a learning process, we all learn from it. Just always try to learn more, I know you said you do that but there is obviosly a problem somewhere if so many of your goats are having problems that would not be classified, in my opinion, as trivial.


----------



## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Honestly i wouldn't give up yet. You said you can'y house two seperate herds but all you need is another small pen at least ten feet away from the other pen. Build them a little lean to and thats enough space between two herds. I kept a positive buck several years ago, he was only two and didn;t show signs of the disease. His mother was a first place doe at the nationals. I wanted more kids out of him. When i bred them i was carful that he never peed directly on them and they never butted heads. When i sold the buck he went to the sale barn my does and all of my bucks offspring are still testing negative. I know a few top show herds that keep positive bucks because they don't want to lose the bloodline. As for the doe just make sure you pull her kids and either give them milk and colostrum from negative animals or heat treated colostrum and pasturized milk. 
Goats only live about twelve to fifteen years, some live a little longer. Bucks and whethers tend to not live quite as long (at least in the dairy breeds) they can have a full happy life living with CAE, depending on what type it has. I know a lady that has a positive doe who is going on eleven, she is finally starting to show her srthritis this year, having swollen joints and having a harder time getting up and down, but she is still eating happy and wants love. 
I think the most commen way sis transmitted is through milk and blood. Butting heads from one positive to one negative can transmit it. I have heard drinking out of the same water bucket can do the same thing, but i don't know if thats true or not. 
i hope this helps a little.
beth


----------



## redneck_acres (Oct 18, 2007)

Most people i've heard from about it say that that the bucks and does would really have to draw quite a bit of blood from head butting in order to spread on CAE. However, i'm certainly no expert on it. I also hear that it is most commonly spread from infected blood rather than Saliva-but like I say that is only what i've heard.


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks everyone. I am still not sure what to do exactly but here are my plans. The two infected goats will stay with the others. I will milk Nellie last when she kids. Her kids will be raised on the other doe's milk since we should have enough to feed a calf or two. After almost losing Stella to it, I just don't trust milk replacer. Do you think they will show any signs when they are older? Also, goat shows won't let you in unless your goat is negative will they? I know our fair will, they don't ask for CAE papers. But I probably won't take her anyway.


----------



## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't think they will ask you if your goats are negative, I know that I've had breeders tell me that most people with positive animals will keep it secret and take them to the fair anyway. Personally, I don't think I would do it.


----------



## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

ADGA shows don't check for Cae or CL negative reports. I know people who have CAE positive animals who take them to shows. ADGA shows unless a fair don't even do vet checks. Im just careful about who i request stalls next to if i can help it. who i go in behind in the ring or try to go in first. i spray stalls out with bleach water before i put goats in them at fairs and such.

beth


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

I wouldn't be too upset about taking her to fair, although the stress could reactivate it. I took her last year and she was fine. I felt sorry for her though because she was the one stuck in the pen with the sheep! I probably won't take her, though over 90% of the goats are market wethers who will be slaughtered anyway.


----------



## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

I think you would be ok taking her to fair. I take my goats to fair every year and i know there is at least one herd that brings CAE positive animals. Im just carful to not house my goats next to them. I test every year and everyone is still negative.
beth


----------



## bigoakfarm (Oct 6, 2007)

It true that there are herds who are willing to bring their CAE positive goats to a show but I don't believe it's right. You have chosen to keep your CAE positive goats and I applaud you for that. I really do. But I hope you would never knowingly expose other herds to CAE. Honestly, WHY would you risk being the cause of some other goat owner's future pain and disappointment by knowlingly exposing other goats to CAE? 

I have seen too many goats sticking their heads through to the feed and water buckets in the neighboring pens because as we all know, what everybody else is eating and drinking MUST be better than our own. And I have seen goats standing in a pen with a runny nose, from the stress of traveling to the show probably, while one passer-by after another pets that goat then the next goat, then the next goat - you get the picture. 

Goat shows are already the best place in the world to take a healthy goat and bring home every germ there is. Please be considerate enough of your fellow goat owners to leave your doe at home if you know she has CAE or ANY disease or illness. IMO, there is no ribbon in the world important enough to make me bring a diseased goat out and into contact with healthy goats even if I do suspect that other breeders are doing it.

I hope you are able to find a way to comfortably manage your positive goats. They are lucky to have you to look after them. I don't say these things out of spite. I just think it's important to remember that other people love their goats just as much as you love yours and you would be devastated if you found out your goats had contracted CAE just because you had stalled them next to the wrong person at a goat show. I think if enough people refuse to keep believing that diseases like CAE and CL are just no big deal, then we can really get the spread of disease under control and make the goat shows a safer place to be for all our precious goaties. That's just my .02 and I'm putting on my flame suit now.

Kristen


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

no flame suit needed Kristen I think you made a very good point and one I was just about to make myself.

nupine I know you want what is best for your doe and wether and I am glad you are keeping them dispite the chalenges.

But knowingly bringing your doe to a show is just not good showmanship in my oppion. She maybe a great doe but exposing someone elses goats to the disease is unfair and if you were on the flip side I think you would appreciate if the positive doe stayed home. 

Bring any of your other girls and even bring the kids from her but my oppion would be to keep nellie home.


----------



## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

nupine if you decide to keep the doe with you other animals and don't really need the milk, you might consider keeping her dry. put some drops of super clue on the teats and don't touch the udder when she has kidded. she might be a little bit uncomfortable but this will pass. also keep her separate until she is done cleaning out. this will take 4 to 6 weeks. during that time, your negative does are most vulnerable to get infected from the birthing fluids. don't let the doe lick the kids dry. the stomach of a newborn is like a sponge for the first 12 hours and can get infected very easily from saliva.. 
be there when the doe gets her kids. keep the kids separate until they are fully dried up so they don't get infected if they sucking on each other when they search for the milk. 
good luck


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I have to disagree on how to dry her off. You don't want to risk mastitis especially when a goat has CAE. 

Best to slowly dry her off by reducing the demand - ie not milking her as much. 

of course that is only if you decide to dry her off and not use the milk


----------



## jBlaze (Oct 9, 2007)

I for one feel sure that Kristen was not lecturing to Nupine, she was making the point that *no one* should take animals with anything wrong to a place where it can spread. As we all know, there are folks who do, and thery are who the lecture is to. And I second that lecture! - I just want to be sure nupine knows it is to to her! :wink: (I believe nupine said she would not take her.)


----------



## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

But is there any scientific confirmed ways that CAE can be transmitted other then milk? I have a friend that has two does, litterlmate sisters, going on eight years old. She has had them sinse they were about three. One is positive one is negative, i odn't know how they were raised as kids. But if its so commen in transmitting it from one herd member to another then why does one sister hae it and one doesn't? 
I have always maintained a clean herd except for my one buck, we don't know how he got it, but ever sinse then i have had negative does and that was several years ago. Now i was really carful when i had does bred to him, never left does in with him never let them really come in contact except the actual breeding. But i really am sceptical about how CAE is transmitted. 
beth


----------



## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

stacey this is not a healthy animal to begin with and the goal is first and foremost to prevent spreading the disease. since she does not want to keep this doe separate it would be the best way.i have dried does up this way and they did just fine.
any other doe in her full lactation i would never dry up this way as this stretches out ligaments and can be very uncomfortable. if she was not milked before she will do just fine.

in my opinion everything needs to be done to eliminate this disease.


----------



## trob1 (Oct 5, 2007)

Nupine I am sorry you are having to deal with this in your herd. Before you even consider whether to take your CAE positive does to the fair take a step back imagine your herd is clean and disease free and you take them to the fair only to later find out the herd in the pen next to you knowingly brought their CAE positive goats to the fair. One year later when you test your her you find you now have a CAE positive goats that was in that pen next to those goats how would you feel? Sometimes when we put ourselves in other shoes things seem more clear. Nupine are you gonna show your CAE pos goats dry? If you show them in milk and that goat drips milk everywhere on the way to the ring then arent you putting every goat who walks behind them at risk? I personally do not show but have in the past and was furious to find out that people bring goats from their herd that look healthy but have been running with goats who have ring worm, sore mouth and Pasturella. I personally would not bring any goats to a show if any of my goats were sick with something contagious and feel that if everyone did the same the shows would be a safer place to bring our animals.


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well my oppion is that you have a lot more experience with milking and drying off goats then she does and I don't want her to miss signs that something is wrong doing it that way. TO me it is to risky. It is not how 99% of the goating world drys of their goats and I know there are other ways to dry her off then something I consider risky.

My oppion - you are entitled to yours.

beth I to really am skeptical about how people say it is transmitted through ____ & _____ with no research to back it up. To me there is no confirmed way besides the milk.

Negative animals who have lived in a closed herd can suddenly become positive - fiasco farm has stated they went through such an incident.


----------



## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

cae is not an airborne disease. goats that suddenly turn up positive, were exposed to the disease.
stacy i would never risk the health of my animals because of one positive doe that leaks milk. i have dealt with cae before and believe me, that is not funny. if you have a positive to and want to deal with the milk, which by the way i see as a hazardous biological material, then keep the doe away from the herd mates until she is dry again.
i would also not go to shows with a positive, nor would i sell it to somebody else. i think it is very sad that we still have so many positive goats in the USA. ever thought about why?


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Do you think teat tape would prevent leaking udders safely? If she leaked milk on the ground and another goat stepped on it or smelled it, could they get it? Ozarksvalley, I really care about Hannah. I worded that wrong. I am very scared for her, I think she may have triplets or very large kids. She is very big and is due March 25. Thanks!
Ashlyn


----------



## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

I can imagine that as long as there are goats in the world there will be CAE. Most people who show do test yearly for it but there are a lot of people who don't. People that got their goats at an aucton and deicde to have cute little babies of their own. They don;t test the doe the doe turns up positive the babies are positive. You can;t make everyone in the world test their animals for CAe. the disease had to start somewhere...where did it start? How did it start. i test my goats because i want to, i want to maintain a clean herd. But not everyone cares. I know people who have tested their does they turn up positive the people just shrug their shoulders and say oh well. they leave the babies on the dams because it is less work bam you have more positive animals. 
beth


----------



## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

beth in the uk every breeder needs to have a negative test result in order to show. they have only about 2% (in USA 80%) positive goats.
it is possible to eliminate this disease if more breeders would be more responsible and do the right thing, it is not about being entitled to have an opinion, but to have the proper education to make the right decision to prevent cae from spreading.
i am not saying that positive animals should be destroyed but i think everything should be done to prevent spreading cae to healthy goats. this is separation from infected animals from positives during kidding and lactation time.

i do not believe in using teat tapes as i saw too often that the goats will take it off.


----------



## alyssa_romine (Oct 5, 2007)

I am so sorry you are going through this! Hugs to you and your goats!!!


----------



## redneck_acres (Oct 18, 2007)

You can use teat tape, just have to make sure to check it often to make sure it is still on the teat good. I think the easiest diseases to pick up at a goat show are -ringworm and soremouth. Because fairgoers like to pet the animals-making it easier to spread those such things. And if you take kids to a show that are still on the bucket or bottle you always want to make sure your bottle and buckets are cleaned up good and locked up to. There are those people who will just dump milk into a lamb bar without asking you if it is okay to do so.


----------



## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

If you ask people to test for CAE before taking a goat to show you really should be asking them to test for CL johnes TB and Brucellosis, while some of these are not as commen as other they are still contagious and still easily transmitted. 
Can you ask someone to test their goats for all of these things? And what about the population that doesn't show? How can you eliminate it in the backyard goat breeders herd? What about goats that wind up at the auction? While a lot of those animals do end up on someones dinner table there are some that don't. In my experience around here the goats that have turned up positive are goats that are bought from large scale operations. While a lot of dairys do test can you really force a dairy with over four hundred goats to test? If their goats don't go anywhere unless sold. Especially little whethers, a lot of them end up in the auction yard and most will be eaton, but there is that one that will escape the dinner table and go home with someone because they thought he was cute. 
Im not trying to argue the fact that we should or should not Make it a rule that you have to test or CAE before going to a show. I would gladly show my negative test results. I had to show scrapie papers at nationals. But i know a lot of people that would argue the system, because like i said before i know quite a few people that have tested found they have positive animals shrug their shoulders turn their backs and keep letting does dam raise kids. 
beth


----------



## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

beth i really don't want to argue about this with you. only thing i can say, look at the UK, look at their numbers, and you have to agree that it worked.
i'm aware how it is possible to have high numbers here. that is why i try to make people aware about the ways of transmission and hope after that, they are educated enough, to make a good decision. one positive goat less can make a different in a herd.


----------



## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Susanne i am not trying to argue with anyone on this or any other subject. I am just pointing out a differnt way of looking at a subject. I feel that when somone asks a question the deserve more then on option. There are more then one way to do things and everyone has their own ways of managing their herds.
beth


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Sparks879, thanks for making a point. Why DO people test their goats, and when they pop up pos, they dam raise the kids? Doesn't make sense. Also, I don't think I would trust teat tape either. But Dr. Naylors has stuff called Stop-a-Leak, which is a safe liquid that constricts muscle at the end of a leaking teat. I will bottle feed her kids, but their will be other kids in the barn with her. But I don't think she will let them nurse. A little while ago, when we put Daisy and her week old kids in the pen, she hated them. They tried to nurse her, but she wouldn't let them get close. I really do believe goat people in the US need to start taking action against this. I am trying not to go crazy over this, because I CAN manage it, but unfortuanatly not many people are.


----------



## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

i was at a breeders farm where she did let the buck kids that were intended for meat, running with the the does. they did not only drink at their dams, but also from others.
goats are known for taking kids from others. you think you can manage this disease if you leave the kids from other does running with a positive? think again. to limit the risk of spreading, don't let kids run with a positive. it is heart breaking if you have to put one down because she turned up to be symptomatic. i had to do it twice. it is not their fault but ours if they get sick.


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

So what am I supposed to do! If any one here has goats , you know you can't keep a doe isolated from her herd for 10 months during lactation! I am not trying to be mean. I am asking for help not being told that everything I want to do is wrong. What am I supposed to do with this doe? Have her wear teat tape or stop a leak or be someones dinner [not going to happen]? Also I am getting too many different opinions, teat tape works well and don't use it. What is right. I guess I am in a bad mood, I can't upload photos of them to put here. Sorry.


----------



## Dover Farms (Oct 16, 2007)

I am really sorry all this has happened Ashlyn!

I wouldn't let other kids run with her while she is in milk though. We dam raised our boer/kiko cross kids and the kids would try to nurse the other dam like it was a game! They especially found that it worked best when the doe was nursing one of her own. :roll: So I wouldn't recomend that. (Note: We only dam raise the meat goat crosses, we bottle feed ALL Nubian babies).

When we test our herd next fall...I plan on keeping the positives. I just plan on hopefully separating the positives from the negatives and pulling the kids, just like we will do with all of them. I am intrigued about the teat glue! That sounds like a good idea...I mean the doe isn't at her full capacity when she kids and when a doe out in the wild kids and the kids die for whatever reason...no one is there to milk her out. And the same goes for commercial meat goat herds....


----------



## Dover Farms (Oct 16, 2007)

I didn't see your post Ashlyn. Why not separate her with your wether? And I would go with the glue....I've heard too many people say that does that nurse themselves won't leave tape on....but then again I haven't heard too much about the glue either. :|


----------



## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ok I am going to step in here and say that each has said their piece now lets get down to helping and not causing to much confusion for Ashlyn.

Ashlyn - you do what you can do and life will continue to move on CAE postive goats or not our life will not end. 

Maybe that is overly dramatic but really I can't sit back and see you floundering because you are confused on what is best because one person says this and another says that... etc You need to decide what works for you out of this information and when you do stick with it and see how it pans out. You have a good head on your shoulders and I know you will do what is best for your animals and their future. 

Come up with a plan and a few options if it doesn't work out. I have ideas I could throw at you but that could only cause more confusion on your part and I dont want to do that. 

Ask questions as you need them and take everyone's words with a grain of salt. 

Chin up girl, you are doing good.


----------



## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

stacy, you are a good girl. you should go into politic, we might have less wars :wink: 

nupine didn't you say, you will have enough milk from another source? you really don't need to separate this doe. kid her out, keep her dry, wait about four weeks before putting her in with the others again or until she does not has any discharge. she will survive this short time. and you know what? you will feel pretty good that you did not risk the health of the other kids :wink:


----------



## redneck_acres (Oct 18, 2007)

You can also use that liquid band-aid stuff to seal over a doe's teats. Of course-I dont think that'd stop a kid from nursing-but it would stop a doe's teats froml eaking. I've heard of folks using it to keep their doe's teats from leaking milk in the show ring. I dont think that is particullarly legal though.


----------



## MissMM (Oct 22, 2007)

As a newbie to the goat world, I have been watching this thread religiously, but haven't responded up to this point thinking I didn't have anything constructive to add.... but maybe I do:

Ashlyn..... I commend your efforts to keep a CAE positive goatie in your care... providing you are willing to follow through with the efforts required to make sure it is not transmitted throughout your herd. At a minimum, you must discharge her from the general herd during lactaction - keep her isolated with a wether or two for company and she'll do just fine. Each CAE positive animal reacts differently. Your positive doe may be fine and symptom free for many years, but another one may have horrific consequences.... Personally, I wouldn't want to be responsible for that. Each and every one of those animals depends on you for their proper care.

If nothing else.... please, please, please do not expose unsuspecting goat owners to this disease by showing your goats off your premises, even if your state doesn't require a health certificate for your goats to leave your property. This thread has partially reinforced why I really have no interest in showing my goaties, even though I've been told many times that they have excellent confirmation/presentation..... my herd is CAE/disease free and I will protect that as best I can and for as long as I can... I don't need a show ribbon to be proud of my herd.

Again Ashlyn, CAE is not a death sentence providing you manage it responsibly. I wish you the best of luck and my prayers are with you.


mmm


----------



## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Hi Ashlyn, first off I think it would take some courage to tell everyone here that you had a CAE pos. goat, and I know you will make the right decision when it comes to her care. I dont really have anything to add as everyone has said everything already  I wish you the best of luck with your goaties. Keep us updated!

Chelsey


----------



## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

Im so sorry for any confusion on this topic Ashlyn, Like Muddy creek farm said you should be commended for coming out and saying now what. As all of these posts are liquid band aids, teat tape etc are all someones personal opinion. I have never had a need to use any of the above. I have seen others do so with great success. 
As Susanne said, if you have other sources and enough milk you may want to consider drying her off shortly after kidding and being done with it. Just use her as a brood doe. 
I can see that this particular doe is very close to you and you have no intentions of getting rid of her, she is more then a milker she is a friend. And she very well might lead a very long happy life and have lots of babies for you. It will be up to you to decide if she is in pain or just can't do it anymore. Sometimes its hard to make decisions like this but sometimes its for the better of the comfort of the animal. But for now she seems to be a young doe who has a lot of years of companionship left in her. 
The only reason i took my positive buck to the auction is i had so many does related to him i just couldn't use him anymore. I couldn;t see myself selling him to another breeder. though i had offers. I show my animals and i can't afford to keep a buck or whether as a pet. But these guys seem to be more to you, though i have a lot of friends in my herd, one doe in particular i just sold but i made the lady promise to call me first when cally went up for sale. But a few years ago i discovered that if i was going to show and sell show quality kids i needed to keep my number manageable. I can;t keep all my favorites. However this doe like i said seems to be very close to you and i commend you for trying to find a way to keep her and the rest of your herd safe. There will just be a few more precautions that you will need to take.
beth


----------



## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

Well said Beth, It is up to Ashlyn now. We all have our opinions on the matter, but it is up to her to make the decisions. CAE and other diseases are VERY touchy subjects. I would send more samples off to several different labs, it is worth the money if you find out that she isnt actually CAE positive!


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks everyone. I guess I got mean because tons of cimpletly different opinions are being thrown at me. So I will try something else. Following are the different opinions I got from you and from what I thought. Please choose which one YOU think I should do. A. Use her as a brood doe, breed her and give her a break. Then breed her again, and so on. But don't milk her. B. Bottle feed all kids and she can stay in with the other goats, once the afterbirth is gone. C. Seperate her for 6-8 weeks when the other does have their kids, then seperate the kids for weaning and put her in with the other goats and milk her using teat tape. D. Seperate the does and their kids and her kids and leave her in with the rest of the goats. E. Sell her. F. Other. Also when I plan on breeding her again, will I have to get my own buck because she is positive? Should I be concerned about Simon too?


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

I ment teat glue in C. How do you get teat glue off?


----------



## susanne (Nov 13, 2007)

nail polish remover :wink: but if you decide not to milk her, ( i wouldn't milk her) you don't need to wry about it. i vote for A
you can use your own buck for breeding. risk that he get infected is very low, nil if you hand bred and take him out immediately after he has bred her.


----------



## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

I would seperate her when you think she is ready to kid soon, tape her teats and see if she leaves it on. some does do and others don't. Try and be present for the birth, take the kids and give them colostrum from a negative doe. Dry your doe off after about three to four weeks, and let her be with her herd.
beth


----------



## redneck_acres (Oct 18, 2007)

Most people I know keep their positive does seprate during the milking season and milk the positives last. As for the milk if it is heated to 165-170 it should be fine for kids to drink. If you are worried about it than i'd dump that milk and only feed them milk from the negative does. Liquid bandaide works great for covering over the teats. If you dont have enough milk to go around you can used powdered or Cows milk. Of course we have a milk cow so I suppose I can't say much for how much it would cost to buy cows milk all of the time for kids to drink.


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks! I am debating between A and C.


----------



## jBlaze (Oct 9, 2007)

I am a little uncertain the way you worded C, so cannot say between A and C. but here is what I see as the best option: 


sparks879 said:


> I would seperate her when you think she is ready to kid soon, tape her teats and see if she leaves it on. some does do and others don't. Try and be present for the birth, take the kids and give them colostrum from a negative doe. Dry your doe off after about three to four weeks, and let her be with her herd.
> beth


And to clarify, I would have keep her with that pos wether durring this time, so she is not going to infect anyone new and she is not alone. I would milk her last, and not use the milk for goats. 
Sorry you are having a hard time with this, it is tough by itself, and then to try to decipher the best option from so many opinions is tougher. Take your time, do what is most sensable to you and keep on askin questions, even if it is frustrating.


----------



## alyssa_romine (Oct 5, 2007)

I agree with jBlaze. I am sorry that you are having such a tough time with this....Hugs to you and your goaties!!!!


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Just to let you all know, they are doing fine. And, for the second year in a row, we got NO kids from Nellie. She is as fat as a horse, 3 years old, and although she became bred in 2007, she aborted, so she has never had any kids. When


----------



## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

First off.... :hug: This is a terrible thing to go through, but it could be worse. At least you have wether you can put with her if you decide to separate her from the others. 

I have to say that I don't agree with the CAE testing that is done now. It only tests for antibodies. So a goat that tests positive could actually be a superior goat in that they will never get the disease since they can fight it off. I wish there was a test that would test for the virus itself. But thats just my opinion on it.


----------



## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I would just like to say that I do not know how I missed this when it started, but I think i am glad I did. I have never had a CAE positive goats so all I could of said was what several others have said.

:leap: Hugs to you and for your love for you goats. You and the goats will know what to do if and when you ever have to. But I would agree that you need to rest for this.

Love those goats like you do and paper them like crazy. :hug: :hug:


----------



## jBlaze (Oct 9, 2007)

RunAround said:


> First off.... :hug: This is a terrible thing to go through, but it could be worse. At least you have wether you can put with her if you decide to separate her from the others.
> 
> I have to say that I don't agree with the CAE testing that is done now. It only tests for antibodies. So a goat that tests positive could actually be a superior goat in that they will never get the disease since they can fight it off. I wish there was a test that would test for the virus itself. But thats just my opinion on it.


I will have to question this.
How can the goat get antibodies without being exposed to the virus? (can't to my knowledge, except for properly pasturized milk, but those antibodies are gone within a year.) And unfortunately the antibidies are not helpful in fighting the disease. (from what I have learned.) 
So, if a person tests positive for HIV aren't you at risk of getting AIDS from them, even though they show no signs of the disease? CAE and AIDS / HIV are the same family of virus. (from what I have learned.) 
_"When HIV (which is a virus) enters a person's body, special proteins are produced. These are called antibodies. Antibodies are the body's response to an infection. So if a person has antibodies to HIV in their blood, it means they have been infected with HIV." from: http://www.avert.org/testing.htm_


----------



## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Actually, I believe they are testing for active antigens in the blood, antigens are the virus itself and a goat can have antigens present and still test negative, it is just a matter of if the antigens are actively circulating through the blood. IMO, a goat that tests positive for CAE but doesn't show symptoms of it is a better goat because they are not succumbing to the disease. Testing positive for CAE isn't the end of the world, it is sort of like the difference between a person with HIV and a person with full blown AIDS: HIV positive people can still live long healthy lives without it ever turning into AIDS.

CAE and HIV are retroviruses, meaning that when the virus enters the body, it will alter the DNA of a cell and 'install' its own equipment for manufacturing the virus/antigens. It affects the T cells, and since it affects them they don't think that the virus is harmful to the body, therefore your T cells are not going to attack and try to destroy the retrovirus like it will a regular virus.

I believe a goat fed pasturized positive milk can still show up positive later on, because of the presence of dead antigens in the body.


----------



## jBlaze (Oct 9, 2007)

Other labs may be using the older thest. WSU is the leading research lab for CAE in the US. Please visit their website. http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/caefaq.aspx



> " Spring, 2007
> 
> Caprine arthritis encephalitis (CAE) is a lentiviral infection of goats which may lead to chronic disease of the joints and on rare occasions encephalitis in goat kids less than six months of age. The CAE virus is intimately associated with white blood cells; therefore, any body secretions which contain white blood cells are potential sources of virus to other goats in the herd. Since not all goats that become infected with CAE virus progress to disease, it is important to test goats routinely for infection by means of a serology test which detects viral antibodies in the serum.
> 1. What are the major means of spread of the virus?
> ...





> IMO, a goat that tests positive for CAE but doesn't show symptoms of it is a better goat because they are not succumbing to the disease.


Then a person that tests positive for HIV is better than one that does not?! They are teh silent carriers that infect others!



> I believe a goat fed pasturized positive milk can still show up positive later on, because of the presence of dead antigens in the body.


See #7 above, thest antibodies wear off.


----------



## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok, let me rephrase that: A goat who tests positive for CAE(like a person who tests positive for HIV) and has not succumbed to the disease has a stronger healthier immune system; if you have a goat test positive, why put it down if it is healthy otherwise and showing no signs?


----------



## jBlaze (Oct 9, 2007)

And it is my sincere hope that from those goats that are able to not show the signs, someday a vaccination will be developed. I beleive that california was at one time testing the relationships between CAE and HIV.

unfortunately:


> As many as 90% of positive goats may be free of clinical signs of the disease, and remain so for years or life.


 which is why it keeps on spreading. "oh, my goats look just fine, no problems at all" and they just pass it along.


----------



## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

yes that is true, but I believe in the theory of survival of the fittest, the weak ones die(unfortunately I had a weak one) and the strong live and reproduce. You can't kill a goat just because it is CAE positive, many famous animals have tested CAE positive, and if those animals were destroyed, there wouldn't be certain lines around today. Management is the key, if you don't want the rest of your herd to get it, milk the pos. does last, don't use their milk and use different tattoo equipment and needles.


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks yall!!!!!!!!! Now, no argueing.


----------



## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

LOL We're debating, not argueing :wink: :lol:


----------



## jBlaze (Oct 9, 2007)

Ya, we're not argueing, we are trying to make sure as many people possible know as much as possible!! 

I just wish that more people were being responsible about it. Unfortunately there are a few breeders in my area that are having kids turn out positive after saying they raise on strict prevention. Well, whatever they are doing is obviously not enough!

I was shafted with a few positives. One of them has surprided me at how nice she has developed, and I hope and pray tht I have done enough to ensure negative kids. (that doe had twin does yeah!) They were all snatched at birth, given negative frozen colustrum, and then whole cows milk. Crossing fingers that it is enough!

And no one wants the positives, I cannot give them away, even though they are nice looking does, the one giving more than a gallon a day. Of course I will not let them go to unwitting homes. That is just TOO unethical for my taste. (but obviousy not for the creeps which sold them to me knowingly.)


----------



## myfavgoats (Oct 8, 2007)

Hey I wanna to say about this. I have one CAE postive doe. She acts fine. My hubby wants to put her down. I said NO! I had her for 6 years. I remove her from the herd and put her in a HUGE pasture and my mother in law's goat that she thinks she might have CAE and will die soon. That what she thinks. Her doe is like 12 years old and she act fine. My mother in law just wont listen. So i took her with me for my doe so she wont be lonely. And they are happy and eating all the browse and everything. 

Maybe U can get a CHEAP goat and put her with ur doe that is CAE postive and put them together. I didnt milk my doe. I let her go after she kidded. But sadly her babies didnt make it. That what I would do that. I understand how u feel. I feel the same way with my doe. She is more than just a milker. She was MY first doe that I purchase her for the first time as a newbie years ago.. So I applaud u to keep them. I am proud of u . Becuz I thought I am the only one is doing that and feel like I am stupid do that. 

Maybe u could do that. I am not telling u what do to . It is up to u. Whatever u feel it is right! I pulled all the baby goats away from mom's. Just in case. I didnt test all of my goats anyways. I am just guessing. But the adult are gone. I told the person that they might be CAE but not postive. She went go head and brought them from me. I was surprised! But the babies. I pulled them away right after and not let her lick or see them. I use colostrum replacer for few days then use cows milk. It works great. I buy the cows milk from the store. The babies are growing so WELL!! Amazing! I am glad that I did that. I am sure u will figure out when time comes!


----------



## Nupine (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks guys. I am probably sticking mostly to Alpines, so I may breed her once or twice, but not very much. I always toss her needles away, and would never milk her. If she is ever bred, her kids would be bottlefed. She is nice doe. We are probably going to have her retested, with a different method. She isn't as agile as some of my other goats, but although she only gets some nice hay, a little pasture, OCCAISIONAL treats, and 1/3 pound of grain a day, it is because she is FAT, and the weight won't come off. But she has no trouble rearing and butting the other goats. [Or me if I push her away when she butts the babies. :wink: ]


----------



## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

I have found this thread very informative- I have always been confused about CAE and this has helped clarify it.
And I appreciate the people who behave ethically about these diseases- in the face of so many uncertainities, I guess you have to get informed then make the best choice you can. 
I have heard something that does bother me - I was wondering what people thought about it. I have heard that a doe might test negative for years then convert to positive even in a closed herd that stays isolated. Some one said they thought she was always positive but only as she got older did it become widespread enough to register on the test. Is there a level of the disease that can not be tested?


----------



## jBlaze (Oct 9, 2007)

I am SO glad that someone is getting something out of this!  !!

This is from answer #7 on teh WSU CAE update-07 site:



> In some goats, seroconversion may be delayed for months after exposure. These "silently" infected animals test negative for antibody until the viral infection is activated by stress or other factors. It has not been determined whether these goats were infectious to other goats during the time they harbored the virus but remained seronegative.


My belief is that these would be spreading disease, just that they didn't make any antibodies to be detected.

I asked Jim Everman, the researcher at WSU, about the test they are trying to develope which looks for the virus itself, and he said it is really not ready yet.  (it was in Feb 08 I asked him.)
hth


----------

