# tough lesson learned with our LGD pup



## amylawrence (May 19, 2011)

We have a 1/2 Pyr, 1/2 Karakachan pup who is 6 months old named Sasha. She adapted immediately to the goats and the goats have accepted her, as well. In fact, she thinks she is a goat. She eats hay, alfalfa cubes, tree leaves, and grain right along with the goats. We had a late bred doe last week who delivered on one of the hottest days of the year, a FF, with beautiful twin :kidblue: and :kidred: . All seemed well, and we even let Sasha attend the birth. We were thrilled to see her help attend the new kids by cleaning them, but then moved her out of the barn to let momma and babies bond overnight in the barn alone. To my horror, the next morning the doeling was standing in the middle of the pasture. I picked her up and she was all wet. As I returned her to the barn to her momma and brother, I see Sasha had squeezed in the gate and was in the middle of the barn, momma against one wall and buckling against another wall, also soaking wet, and Sasha is happy as she can be. Apparently she had a fun night "playing" with the new babies. I immediately removed her and barricaded the barn gate, but the babies were completely in shock and went downhill throughout the day, even with tube feedings. Momma would have nothing to do with them - I'm sure she was quite traumatized and the bonding never happened. Both kids died. I get so discouraged at costly mistakes that I make that sometimes I want to give up raising goats. Hubby and I love this pup and I'm sure she wasn't acting maliciously towards the babies. How do we teach her to behave with new kids? I'm at a loss about how to handle her when kidding season comes next spring. (Also, she frequently "runs" a goat - how do we break that?) Any ideas appreciated.


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## Breezy-Trail (Sep 16, 2011)

Sorry to hear about this.
Must be very sad for you to loose the 2 kids..and from your pup.
I have the same mix and no problems.
She is almost 3 months old and was raised with small kids (they are small now..must have been really small when the pup was with them). She was also with my 3 month old kid and no problems.
I think its key to raise them with all animals while they are very young.


Again sorry for your loss. Don't give youself a hard time. 
The heat probably wasnt of much help. That is why it isn't good that does kid around this time.
You probably should have gotten a temp to see in they were too hot.
Probably wasn't all the dogs fault or yours.


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## goatgirlzCA (Mar 9, 2011)

I am so sorry this happened! Don't blame yourself, we all are still learning and making mistakes is part of it. :grouphug: 

I was told not to let LGD dogs around newborn babies until the dog is 2 years old (out of the puppy stage). They are too much of a puppy. My LGD is now 1.5 years and I let her guard our does and their 10 week old babies and she does just fine, but I remember when she was four to like ten months, she was still so much a baby herself and chased the adult goats and used them as chew toys. The dog just didn't know they weren't for her to play with. They do learn with time though.

Don't be too hard on yourself - things happen and we can't control it. Like Jesse said, anything could have caused their death, heat, maybe they were weak, or something like that.


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## amylawrence (May 19, 2011)

thanks for the kind words. Jesse - I noticed your pics earlier of your pup and thought she looked a lot like Sasha! 

I actually thought to check kids' temps and they were ok, and I certainly learned not to let a doe be bred so late as to deliver in 103 degree weather (she's almost solid black, to boot.) 

Sasha was born with goats and newborn kids, so we kinda felt safe bringing her right from one goat pen into ours. I hope she outgrows these behaviors. I'm not upset with her - I shouldn't have expected her to behave like an adult with perfect goat-rearing manners when she's still a pup.

Again, thanks for letting me cry on your shoulders!


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Oh I am so very sorry that this happened to you. This is a very hard thing for you to have happen. So many of us misunderstand animals and what they think of things and often we can also give our children to big of a situation before they are ready to deal with it. Well... this is a case of the dog not understanding what it is supposed to do with the goats. Here are some of my thot's below.
1) I would not let a dog ever lick and clean up the baby goats for several reasons: - first of all, it just may kick in a mother instinct in them, 2nd of all it could also cause them to chew on the goats. I also would not allow the dogs to eat the after birth. This is what the coyotes do and we are training the dog to be civil with the goats. 
2) Define what your expectations are for the dog. She needs to be taught what she can and can not do. She can not play chase with them at all ever. 
3) I like to have our dog present during the birth of the babies. She loves this time but she is not allowed at all inside the pen and has to be peeking in through the fence without making a squeel or a peep and has to lay down quietly to just watch. She is not able to be with the babies at all until they are bonded with the mamma. 

Everyone will do things differently depending on the situation but I think all would agree that LGDs need supervision at all times especially when they are young. 

Your dog sounds like she just loves the goats. She will be very good with them in the future I am sure.


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## amylawrence (May 19, 2011)

thanks for the tips, Merry - they sound very wise and encourage me to work a little more diligently with Sasha so she knows what is expected. This is our first experience with an LGD so we definitely are learning the ropes. :thankU:


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## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I think it will all work out with some supervision. We have all had to learn so many things with livestock births. We were a lot more strict with our dog since she is part short hair and part Aussie. I know that the LGD protector breeds are a lot less energetic than our Shiloh is with the goats. She is now very good with all of them and knows each one's personality very well. Two goats are not nice to her and she tries to be kind to them.


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