# Llamas died. Don't know why.



## gwith

We have had some issues this week with our llamas.

We have had one Llama going back and forth to the vet for a month due to an eye infection. On the last visit the llama started shaking a lot. We figured he was getting stressed. Over the next four days he got worse and died. In the end he couldn't stand and when we got him up he would shake a lot and then fall. The vet couldn't figure anything out and assumed possibly stress. 

About 5 days later we found our other llama laying on his side in the barn. He looked like he was trying to run while laying on his side before we found him, but was still when found him. We gave him B complex and fluids and got him up. The next morning we found him on his side again so we took him to the vet. The vet said possibly heat stress. Over the next 4 days we worked with the llama. He was up and down, but he died. 

Both llamas got to weak to stand. Both died 4 days after we say symptoms. The first one shook a lot. The second one kept rolling onto his side and couldn't get back. 

They were in different pens about 10 yards apart. Both 2 years old, gelded, and we had then for 11 months. 

Seems like the deaths should be related.


----------



## ksalvagno

Was it hot out? Were they shorn? Are you going to have a necropsy?

Sorry you lost them.


----------



## NyGoatMom

Does cocci affect llamas? Reason I ask is I had a goat die before I knew what cocci even was and that it can show no symptoms. That goat did the "paddle" on his side too....so sorry for your losses  So sad!


----------



## gwith

It was 100 the first day the second one started showing signs. It has been hotter this summer and for longer. One was trimmed, not shaved, the other long hair. 

No necropsy.


----------



## ksalvagno

More than likely heat got them. Alpacas and llamas heat stress extremely easy.


----------



## odieclark

So sorry about your llamas. That is so heartbreaking.

We appreciate you sharing this story, even though so sad, as we are learning too.

Maybe it was the heat, which makes me take heed with our llama to check him to ensure he is ok and perhaps has a way of cooling off.

I can attest to witnessing ours appearing very hot and often and routinely sticking his feet in the goats drinking water! At first we were a bit appalled, but realized likely he was hot and was why he kept doing that. We set out more water dishes for drinking after that! (Or shall I say, llama foot baths!)

So sorry for your loss.


----------



## ksalvagno

Put out a plastic pool for the Llama. If he isn't shorn, then shear him. Put out electrolytes for him. Have fans going in the barn. Once they go down with heat stress, it is hard to bring them back. Very serious stuff.


----------



## gwith

Is everyone thinking heat?

It was 100 for several days a couple of weeks ago and they were fine.

What else can we do to make sure this doesn't happen again? I like the pool idea, but wouldn't it get stuff in it that would get the goats sick? I am sure they would drink out of it.


----------



## ksalvagno

Sometimes you are lucky. You may not have noticed a mild heat stress. If the heat never went way down then they never were really cooled down. The above mentioned stuff is pretty much what you should do. I can't stress enough fully shearing them except keeping some leg wool on.


----------



## gwith

Why leave some leg wool on?


----------



## odieclark

We did have our llama professionally sheared and they could not do his legs. When we got him they did t do his legs either. 

We considered getting a plastic pool, maybe we still can! I know he put out a few extra water dishes. Would he sit in a wading pool?


----------



## KW Farms

It's really hard to be sure, but it sounds like it very well could have been the heat along with stress. Having a vet do a necropsy would have been a good idea.

Llamas really need to be sheared if you're in a hot climate. 

Make sure there is plenty of shade and cool, fresh water. I keep float valves in all my tanks...keeps the fresh water going all day and never runs dry.


----------



## gwith

We did this to our alpaca this morning. He was trimmed about 6 weeks ago, but I didn't want to take any chances.


----------



## ksalvagno

That is good. He will still have enough time to grow fiber for the winter. You leave some fiber on the legs for fly protection. You cut it down to 2 or 3 inches or so instead of closer to the skin like you do the rest of the body.

You can also hose their legs and bellies. Never put water on their backs, it holds in the heat.


----------



## gwith

Thanks


----------



## brigadoonfarmgal

Hello What if anything were you worming your guys with? What area do you live in and do you have a water source (river, stream, pond) frequented by Whitetail deer on your property?


----------



## happybleats

Oh Gwith, so sorry for your loss....: (


----------



## gwith

Just yearly worming with ivomec. Lots of deer, but they don't get into the pens often. The fence is 6 feet tall. No streams or Ponds.


----------



## brigadoonfarmgal

Hello

I am posting this website on the "Meningial Worm" (esp on the heat related fatalities once infected) do you see any similarities with the symptoms/behavior of your guys? http://www.vet.utk.edu/news/story/brain-worm-(meningeal-worm)-infestation-in-llamas-and-alpacas.html


----------



## gwith

No. It honestly looked to me like heat stress.


----------



## brigadoonfarmgal

I understand. I am sorry for your loss.


----------



## gwith

I think we have a problem. 

Our alpaca suddenly died Sunday. He acted normal up until Saturday night when he laid down at feeding time. He acted normal Sunday morning and died during the day. His hair was trimmed to about 2 inches about 2 months ago and then cut really short a week before he died. We had him 2 1/2 years. 

So we had 3 animals die in 3 weeks. They died a week apart. They have to be related.


----------



## sassykat6181

Do you deworm them regularly? Are there white tailed deer in your area?


----------



## odieclark

*Alpaca and animals who died*



gwith said:


> I think we have a problem.
> 
> Our alpaca suddenly died Sunday. He acted normal up until Saturday night when he laid down at feeding time. He acted normal Sunday morning and died during the day. His hair was trimmed to about 2 inches about 2 months ago and then cut really short a week before he died. We had him 2 1/2 years.
> 
> So we had 3 animals die in 3 weeks. They died a week apart. They have to be related.


Which other animals died?

Heat might be the problem. Heat seems to have caused the death in this posts llama. It is very hot for these animals, and heat is a stressor.

I am so sorry for your losses. I know how devastating it can be.


----------



## odieclark

Error on my part, as I see you lost the llamas! Oh, my, I am so sorry! Gosh, I wonder if it is something besides heat? Keep us posted. Maybe somebody else on here will know.

Do you have an extra water dish or small plastic or rubber type wading pool for the alpacas or llamas to step into? 

I know our llama does step in the water when he is hot! He loves it!


----------



## gwith

We don't have any more llamas or alpacas. That is probably a good thing. We want to buy more, but won't for a long time.


----------



## ksalvagno

What happened with your alpaca?


----------



## gwith

Our alpaca suddenly died Sunday. He acted normal up until Saturday night when he laid down at feeding time. He acted normal Sunday morning and died during the day. His hair was trimmed to about 2 inches about 2 months ago and then cut really short a week before he died. We had him 2 1/2 years. 

So we had 3 animals die in 3 weeks. They died a week apart. They have to be related.


----------



## brigadoonfarmgal

Thiamin deficiency...heat induced.....possibly?

http://www.bagendsuris.com/?page_id=735

sorry for your losses!


----------



## ksalvagno

I'm so sorry you lost him.


----------



## Suzanne_Tyler

So sorry


----------



## happybleats

UGH..Im so sorry...Im so sick for you....


----------



## Jessica84

Oh I am so so sorry for your loss  was there a change in temperature when they passed? Like cooler then spike up in heat? A few years back the weather was very crazy, well it is this year too, but it would go back and forth like 10 degrees every week pretty much over night and my goats were croaking on me, turned out they had silent pneumonia. I never seen anything kill something so fast, there was no warning or anything but mine died in the night. Fine right before I would go to bed and dead by the time I got up. 
If it was bad feed or something you would think they all would have got sick or died at the same time. I'm really not sure what it could be other then some kind of sickness that just kept making its rounds till it got everyone. Again I am so very sorry for your losses (hugs)


----------



## catharina

That's so awful & upsetting! Please accept my condolences. :rose::rose::rose:


----------



## gwith

It was starting to get hot when the first one died. It was 100F for a week or so when the second died and it cooled off about a day or two before the last one died. 

I wish I knew what it was, because we really want more llamas and alpacas.


----------



## Jessica84

Well if you do want more I would play it safe and Toss all the feed, walk around and make sure there's is nothing poisonous growing and wait at least 30 days. Clean all the stalls, pens, water troughs and everything and go again. Well now that I'm really thinking is there any chance a neighbor could have fed them something bad?


----------



## gwith

One llama had access to the fence by the road. The other llama and alpaca have an electric fence that keep them 5-10 yards from the neighbors fence. 

What would be growing that would be poisonous?


----------



## Jessica84

I really have no idea what could be out there. You have had them for a few years now so I would just walk around and if any plant looks like it hasn't been there say a year ago I would take a picture and post it, unless the pasture is super short then just go with anything you don't know. Most animals are really smart about not eating things they shouldn't (not always but for the most part) unless things start getting short. Honestly though I think it was something contagious or maybe even a worm load or something. Something happened and did it fast since you have had them for a few years now........but of course always just a guess :/


----------



## brigadoonfarmgal

Don't feel bad if you didn't see them being ill or compromised ...Alpaca are a "predator prone" animal they will not outwardly show any illness until the very end (this saves them from being picked off in the wild). It also means that they are extremely difficult to read as far as diagnosing a health problem (unless it is something neurological that they can not control)most times until it is to late.... again I am so sorry for your loss and hope you get some answers! Did you have a necropsy on the last one?

I also found this wonderful (but frightening) article on sudden Alpaca deaths ...

http://alpacasofoklahoma.com/?p=153


----------



## odieclark

*llama and alpaca deaths scary*



brigadoonfarmgal said:


> Don't feel bad if you didn't see them being ill or compromised ...Alpaca are a "predator prone" animal they will not outwardly show any illness until the very end (this saves them from being picked off in the wild). It also means that they are extremely difficult to read as far as diagnosing a health problem (unless it is something neurological that they can not control)most times until it is to late.... again I am so sorry for your loss and hope you get some answers! Did you have a necropsy on the last one?
> 
> I also found this wonderful (but frightening) article on sudden Alpaca deaths ...
> 
> http://alpacasofoklahoma.com/?p=153


whoa! that is one scary article! Gosh, let's hope this isn't a problem for anyone..ugh :GAAH:


----------



## gwith

The vet I took then to has alpacas and a llama on the property, but they didn't get within 50 yards of mine.


----------



## happybleats

any chance of a necropsy?


----------



## gwith

happybleats said:


> any chance of a necropsy?


Not any more.


----------



## odieclark

aww, so sorry!

Sending virtual hugs and prayers your way:snow:


----------



## gwith

I found this plant on the edge of the barn. It was near where two of them died. I see it every year, but it is never eaten. I noticed two days ago one of the larger plants has all of it's leaves eaten off. 

The plant has little thorns on the stem.


----------



## odieclark

This wouldn't be a variety of wild rhubarb, called burdock, is it? If so, I believe it is VERY POISOINOUS!

Type in wild rhubarb, and when you see the photos or images posted-well there is a resemblance


----------



## catharina

Does it have little potato-type flowers & then red fruits that look a little like cherry tomatoes? The plant I'm thinking of is in the nightshade family so probably not good.


----------



## goathiker

Burdock is definitely NOT poisonous, It is one of the wild edible plants I use :lol: That isn't Burdock though, it would be about 3 feet taller and in bloom this time of year. It has waxy leaves that are whitish and fuzzy on the underside and NO thorns anywhere.


----------



## Jessica84

It looks like a star thistle to me. Does that plant get this yellow kinda flower with bit thorns coming out of it..google it and see if that's what it is. If so I don't think it's poisonous since they use goats in place to try and get rid of it but I guess it will make super bad sores in horses mouths if they eat it


----------



## gwith

It doesn't look like start thistle or burdock. I thought it had small cherry tomato fruit, but I thought they were always green. There are no fruit now. The one in the picture is the small one, the one they ate was about 18" tall. 

I will look around more when it stops raining.


----------



## gwith

I found some more. In that pen I found about 5. Two were eaten. 

I found one in another area with the fruit.


----------



## gwith

The stem. The stem and underside of the leaves has thorns.


----------



## Suzanne_Tyler

That looks similar to the nightshade we have around here, and nightshade is poisonous.


----------



## Greybird

Look up horse nettle and see if that matches it.
If so, it is a poisonous plant and it might be your culprit,


----------



## gwith

Depends where I look, but it looks like both of them. I saw no fruit in the pen which is the most toxic part. I'm leaning towards horse nettle.


----------



## Jessica84

Well no matter which one it is the are both poisonous. When my parents lost some calfs out of the blue they picked one of the poisonous plants and took it into some kind of ag department to make sure it was what they thought it was, I'm sure you have something like that if you want to be totally sure what you have there


----------



## gwith

Maybe the local ag county office can help.


----------



## odieclark

*Identifying wild plants*



goathiker said:


> Burdock is definitely NOT poisonous, It is one of the wild edible plants I use :lol: That isn't Burdock though, it would be about 3 feet taller and in bloom this time of year. It has waxy leaves that are whitish and fuzzy on the underside and NO thorns anywhere.


Identifying wild plants can be difficult, and when in doubt throw it out! I guess that goes for refrigerated foods in question of their age!:leap:

It appears the culprit may have been figured out on this thread already, as it has the appearance of several possible plants that are questionable:think:

Rhubarb, burdock, wild rhubarb, and many wild plants....

I found this "
"Only the stalks of rhubarb are edible, as the leaves contain potentially toxic oxalic acid. Oxalic acid can cause kidney stones, gastric upset and even cardiovascular or respiratory failure. The Ohio State University Extension advises against consuming rhubarb stalks that have been hit by hard frost, as severe cold can cause oxalic acid to develop in the stalks.

According to The Ohio State University Extension, common burdock should also be considered toxic due to its potential diuretic effects when consumed. The burs can also cause skin irritation when they become hooked in the skin.


----------



## goathiker

Just to kick in some boring details, the estimated lethal dose of oxalic acid is about 375mg/kg.Rhubarb leaves contain on average 0.5% oxalic acid, which means to cause death, a 70kg (150lbs) person would have to eat about 5kg (11lbs) of leaves in order to die...


----------



## NyGoatMom

^^ :lol:


----------



## NyGoatMom

Ok, let me explain why I'm laughing....the way Jill said that, all I could picture was someone with a mondo bowl of leaves eating them like a salad :lol:


----------



## goathiker

Burdock is used in food the same way as Rhubarb, mostly the stalks are eaten. The leaves are used fresh on burns or made into burn ointment, tea to treat water retention, and to cleanse the bladder. The tea of roots treats acne and other skin infections.


----------



## catharina

I really do think it's in the nightshade family & I don't know of a single nightshade without poisonous leaves. Here are some plants from the Solanaceae (nightshade) family that we all know, & they all have poisonous leaves: potato, tomato, eggplant, pepper, & tobacco. The fruit of potato plants is also poisonous. In considering any wild nightshades, assume all parts are toxic to some extent.


----------



## Steampunked

I'd bet my last dollar that was Solanaceae. Look how much like a tomato those fruit are. Catharina is on the money - while we do eat some Nightshades, humans can eat more types than other animals can - we can even eat some forms of 'true' Nightshade without too much issue. Other animals, not so much - Brugmansia is a Solanaceae to give you some idea of how bad the poison can get. Even those Nightshade species with edible fruit can have very poisonous leaves.

The plants are often also narcotic, so could easily be responsible for swimming, staring, or dazed behaviour.

EDIT: Google Images for 'Carolina Horsenettle' and compare - as you have seen the plant in different light. I've got a suspicion, given your area. If so, that might be your culprit. All parts are poisonous


----------



## gwith

goathiker said:


> Just to kick in some boring details, the estimated lethal dose of oxalic acid is about 375mg/kg.Rhubarb leaves contain on average 0.5% oxalic acid, which means to cause death, a 70kg (150lbs) person would have to eat about 5kg (11lbs) of leaves in order to die...


I was wondering about the quantity. The llama weighed 230#. The alpaca was probably 100#. Total I saw about two hand fulls of leaves missing. I haven't seen any of these plants in the pen where the first llama lived.


----------



## odieclark

Aww... I hope you figure  out what it might have been that affected them so quickly, to give you peace of mind.
The heat and humidity have been crazy, and certainly whether it be from just the heat or some other issue or POISOINOUS plant-combined with the heat, could have been just too much? 

However, Know you did your best and surely they knew you cared about them while they lived with you. I hope you find comfort in that, as I know how hard it can be.


----------

