# Let's talk teats.... (Meat/Boer specifically)



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm really curious.... In 9 years of raising goats we have always used Fullblood Boer bucks with 1x1 or 2x2 teats. 
We breed so our kids have some ABGA registered Boer goats to show and sell as replacement stock, and randomly commercial does or wethers. 
So we bought twin bucks back earlier this year - born late summer. We love the bucks, they have solid pedigrees behind them, their full sisters are amazing, and one of them has been very successful in the show ring.
The downfall is their teat structure. I know it's a gamble to buy goats not deemed 'clean' teated, but I have to say, we've had random teats from clean teated bucks/does. 

So I am wondering, how many of you have used bucks that were not solid 1x1 or 2x2 and gotten good results? 
Our bucks are in the Acceptable range with the ABGA teat chart (even though they do not judge buck teats...). 

I honestly feel down on myself for not being more picky about teat structure. But I'm hopeful we can improve our herd structurally. 
If it doesn't work, my daughter will have 4-H wether/commercial doe options for next year, so we won't completely lose, but still, we strive to keep them clean and correct.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh stinking Boer teats, such a pain! Lol the second buck I ever bought I didn’t think anything about teats when I bought him and then realized down the road that he was very much less then perfect! His kids I do have to say I did end up with way more “bad” teats then I do now. Even being totally dead set on buying nothing but clean bucks the last......I don’t even know how many years, I still end up with some that throw some fish or otherwise bad ones. I had 3 this year I almost cried over disbudding them to sell as market kids, and they did sell first they were that nice.
But ok here is my 2 cents. I am keeping a little buck this year. I’m totally in love with his length and that is one thing that I REALLY want to add more to my herd.....like that is at the top of my list at the moment. He does have excepted teats, they are a 2 and at the very very base (you have to look hard) they are together. But because they are split more then 50% it’s good. Anyways, that has always been a no no to me. But I think will improve my herd. So I thought long and hard and decided not to sell him. I’m going to cull any does that I don’t like their teats (as I do now anyways) and keep or privately sell the good ones. The one I keep I’m going to make sure I absolutely don’t breed to anything but perfect. No we really are not supposed to sacrifice one thing for another but I think sometimes it is what it is, I thought “is it worth it to have to cull some kids to get some good keepers?” And yes i think it is.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Jessica! yes I agree... those darn Boer teats! I hope your buckling works out well! Years ago I sold a really, really nice % doe - my youngest daughters first 4-H commercial doe because I think she was 2x2 and at the time I was told 1x1 was only acceptable. Even with a little split I should have kept her. Will always regret that decision, she was super nice.
We had 1x1 with little non functional on each side a lot last year with 16 kids/4 sets of triplets/2 sets of twins and 2nd crop for the buck. One doe he did throw random bad teats with (cluster), but only with the boys and they were going to be wethered. Doe kids never had bad teats. 
The buck we bought that I like the most is 1x1 with 2 non functional teats on each side. They are close together, but he has loose skin, so I think if you pull the skin tight they may be more separated.
His brother I believe is 1 with a split (50% or more split I believe) and 2 on the other side.
So...definitely not ideal. I'd be okay with producing 2x2 does or 1x1 with a non functional so long as there are no other funky outcomes. 
The one I like the most from these 2 guys is long, he has a good strong top, good spring of rib, and great butt (lol), he's got really good bone, and a very masculine look about him. His brother is just not as powerful looking as he is, but he's gaining and trying to pick up. 
We need to add more bone, and overall power to our does, especially strong topline and more butt would be good too.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It can be tough, I see beautiful bucks out there, who are teat flawed. Certain flaws are acceptable though.
It is devastating to the breeder for sure. 

We can gamble on it but, it can be passed along. But then again, as mentioned, clean teated goats can popup with issues at random as well.

If you have clean teated goats genetics, a long ways in. 
dds may be a bit better. 
Really it is hit and miss.

I notice on a lot of top breeders selling with teat spurs, which are ABGA acceptable. But buyers do not want it. 

What gets me is, these structures are acceptable by the association, but, breeders frown on it, how is that?
If they are acceptable, LOL. 
2x1 clean is another thing breeders don't really want, why? 

I get clean teated myself, but the questions are there. 
If they are acceptable, what is the beef with it all. (doh)


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

so far I have gotten 1x1 or 2x2 clean or with a nob on one side of the 1x1, I discovered this year Letty has a nob, last year she didnt, the only time I have gotten A9 (both A9s had 2x2 and 2xA9) or 2xP4 was when Letty's full brother Derick was the father, Diesel is clean 2x2, this years kids are all 3 clean 2x2, I have pics if you like, (they are babies so it is HARD to see)


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I know a lot of people don’t want those nubs. They don’t want any NF teat on their goat that a kid will spend their time messing with and using energy on a test that doesn’t produce anything. To a degree I guess I understand. Especially if their herds are ones that are turned out and in pasture and they don’t really mess with them at kidding time. I have seen my new borns going at those nubs but for me it’s not a big deal to step in and latch them onto a working teat. 
But really it seems everyone has what they consider ideal and what they will forgive. 
But it sounds like your buck is considered correct ??? When I mentioned the one buck that I didn’t check his teats when I bought him he had a cluster of 3 on one side and 2 that were not even considered fish teat they were so close together on the other side with a nub. So when I say way less then perfect I mean way less then perfect! But if they are up to ABGA standards you may or may not run into having DQed teats.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks for your input.



toth boer goats said:


> It can be tough, I see beautiful bucks out there, who are teat flawed. Certain flaws are acceptable though.
> It is devastating to the breeder for sure.
> 
> We can gamble on it but, it can be passed along. But then again, as mentioned, clean teated goats can popup with issues at random as well.
> ...


I agree! If it's accepted then why does everyone look down on it? I do agree with Jessica's comment about people not wanting babies to waste time trying to find a teat, and I totally agree with that, especially for herds that are more hands off - there is always that stubborn baby that needs a 'which teat works for dummies' tutorial (lol).

I truly am a 1x1 person, so sure I kick myself over buying a buck (any buck) who isn't 1x1. But... we love these guys, their pedigrees are solid and their full sisters are truly stunning does. I think these guys have potential and do come from a good herd. Years ago when we started in goats we had a couple of commercial does that did not have nice udders - we kept a daughter from 1, then kept one of her daughters but sold the grand dam and dam. That one doe that we kept became a solid producer of doe kids - every doe kid she had for us in like 6 years of breeding were clean. Her buck kids were however not super clean (weird huh?), but that didn't matter to us since they were % and we always used her boys as my kids 4-H wethers.



spidy1 said:


> so far I have gotten 1x1 or 2x2 clean or with a nob on one side of the 1x1, I discovered this year Letty has a nob, last year she didnt, the only time I have gotten A9 (both A9s had 2x2 and 2xA9) or 2xP4 was when Letty's full brother Derick was the father, Diesel is clean 2x2, this years kids are all 3 clean 2x2, I have pics if you like, (they are babies so it is HARD to see)


We've had that happen. Last year was a strange one with teats! 2nd season using the buck. We had bred 6 does and ended up with 16 kids! We had a lot of P3's! That was a first with having so many.



Jessica84 said:


> I know a lot of people don't want those nubs. They don't want any NF teat on their goat that a kid will spend their time messing with and using energy on a test that doesn't produce anything. To a degree I guess I understand. Especially if their herds are ones that are turned out and in pasture and they don't really mess with them at kidding time. I have seen my new borns going at those nubs but for me it's not a big deal to step in and latch them onto a working teat.
> But really it seems everyone has what they consider ideal and what they will forgive.
> But it sounds like your buck is considered correct ??? When I mentioned the one buck that I didn't check his teats when I bought him he had a cluster of 3 on one side and 2 that were not even considered fish teat they were so close together on the other side with a nub. So when I say way less then perfect I mean way less then perfect! But if they are up to ABGA standards you may or may not run into having DQed teats.


I agree about issues with kids finding teats. Yes he should be correct, 1x1 with 2 non functionals. When you pull the loose skin around the teat area tighter there is more space between them, but if you just look at them they look like they are right on top of each other.

These guys come from a solid herd, absolutely the nicest looking herd of Boer goats overall that I have seen so far in person.
So these are the boys about 2 weeks ago. My daughters buck is the one with the teat structure I'm not crazy about, but she loves him and he's a nice buck definitely not a dud just because of teats IMO.
These guys are end of August born and brought them home Feb 2nd they were 81 & 92lbs. When I weighed them about 5 days ago they were 146 & 156lbs. They are muscled and firm to the touch. They do need more fat on them for showing though, the smaller one is coming along.




























This guy is coming along, it's crazy how different twins can be! He's quite a character which matches his looks lol










That expression...lol He's filled out a little more since I took these pics



















They switched goats in these pics


















I love these faces... They were waiting (sort of patiently) for their topdress and will not eat the grain until I pour it on! The boy closest to me (my sons buck) will nose through the food if I keep waiting to let me know he's getting impatient. He is the type that just makes you shake your head (and you have to laugh). BTW, I just add a tiny bit of something similar to calf manna and a tiny bit of power fuel. The feed change was their biggest improvement.



















Not the best angle but love that solid back and the butt muscle on him.









So.... wouldn't you give these guys a chance too? Love them....I don't even need a judge to tell me anything about them, because I love them. I'm hoping the kids have fun showing them. I'm just really hoping for good teats on their kids. Fingers crossed.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

What beautiful goats! They look amazing! 

Personally I don't really care about teat structure (as long as it doesn't interfere with the goat or the goats kids quality of life) but I am not a huge boer person (Yet) i have only ever had one registered boer doe and I am just lately becoming obsessed and drifting towards this breed after I went to a number of shows last few yearsand fell in love with them. I have a 2 commercial does now. Not anything special, but good for producing some commercial kids. One doe has clean 2x2 teats, all teats are functioning. I also have a much larger doe who has clean 2x2, and 2 nobs just above those. All 4 clean teats are functioning. I have heard of people clipping these off when kids are newborn. No way I could do that! I wouldn't think that badly of it if it was a DQ to not have 1x1 teats, but its not. Why put them through the stress, and pain(and potential infection) if it is not needed? My neighbor (raises boers) said she knew person who would cull kids immediately after birth if they are born with any teat structure other than 1x1. She called them "rennets" when they were born like that. She would use them to get rennet. That seems disgusting to me. Least they could do is put them up as commercial boers. People like me would happily buy them. Hope that isn't a controversial subject I didn't know about, and I just opened a can of worms:hide:

I even kinda like the 2x2 teats. I feel like since the teats on my does are functioning it would be easier for the kids to start nursing. I don't know. I'm just getting into boers and not sure If i should be looking for one thing and not for just anything. There are some boers with absolutely stunning conformation, and lines behind them, but they have fish teats or 2x2. Should I be avoiding them and looking for better does with 1x1? Would it be that much harder to sell kids if they ended up 2x2?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thank You SandyNubians! We really do love these guys. 
If you are wanting to get into registered stock, it really is ideal to get the best teats you can get - I would highly advise staying away from fish teats though, very undesirable IMO and one of those structures where.... babies could really struggle to nurse. Extra non functionals aren't ideal, but no where near as bad as fish teat or a really bad split teat. That would definitely be where I draw the line. Had these guys had fish or really bad splits I would have totally passed on them.
Yes, it does seem the better show quality, the more teat issues there can be. I notice that when I look at random sale catalogs from the registered sales. Beautiful does that can't be shown because of teat structure. I was told they don't check buck teats though, so a lot of times I may not see their structure listed. I wonder how many ennobled bucks are clean 1x1 or 2x2.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

Thank you for the advice! I'll write all that down in my notes. I can't wait until I have the funds built up to start a small herd! Boers are such beautiful goats!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

HoosierShadow said:


> Thank You SandyNubians! We really do love these guys.
> If you are wanting to get into registered stock, it really is ideal to get the best teats you can get - I would highly advise staying away from fish teats though, very undesirable IMO and one of those structures where.... babies could really struggle to nurse. Extra non functionals aren't ideal, but no where near as bad as fish teat or a really bad split teat. That would definitely be where I draw the line. Had these guys had fish or really bad splits I would have totally passed on them.
> Yes, it does seem the better show quality, the more teat issues there can be. I notice that when I look at random sale catalogs from the registered sales. Beautiful does that can't be shown because of teat structure. I was told they don't check buck teats though, so a lot of times I may not see their structure listed. I wonder how many ennobled bucks are clean 1x1 or 2x2.


 I agree, it is disheartening how many quality boers I am seeing for sale out there, who are beautiful animals with bad teat flaws. They are all over the place.

You are right, bucks are not important with the ABGA, but should be.

I don't mind the 2x1 separate and clean teats. 
But find some do not like them. Why???


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

toth boer goats said:


> I agree, it is disheartening how many quality boers I am seeing for sale out there, who are beautiful animals with bad teat flaws. They are all over the place.
> 
> You are right, bucks are not important with the ABGA, but should be.
> 
> ...


What do you think of the current teat structure chart? I just don't get it. If people didn't like the clean teats with no non functionals, then how did this chart come to change so drastically? 
Ugh. I'm trying not to stress over this with our boys.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Fish and really bad split can turn ugly fast. I kinda learned as I went. I had many fish teats and never saw a issue with it. Those does could feed their kids fine so what was the big deal? But not all fish teats are the same and not all kids are smart. So although not every bad split will cause a issue in the end it’s a gamble. It’s not worth putting the time and money into it  
I don’t understand the issue with 2X1 I guess because it looks funny??? Who knows. I do know that some only like 1X1 and some only like 2X2 so maybe those poor goats are just doomed with both sides. I don’t care if it’s 2X1.
I’m sorry Candice but since we are on the topic Im going to add to it with some questions. So with kids I’m not sure I am giving the right info on teats. From my understanding the larger teats are “teats” and the smaller ones would be considered nubs or non functional correct? But most of those nubs do actually have milk that comes out when they freshen. Am I looking at this wrong? How can you really tell if it is functional or not as a kid? Also when you guys are giving test info how do you word it? Do you say 1X1 with 1 nub? Or 1X1 with 1 non functional? Or do you just say 1X2?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh man the teat chart, I think someone was drunk or something who thought that up. Yeah, really strange and ugly some of them.
But yet get this, the ABGA association states, no more than 2 teats per side, so what gives with multiple teats they provided. ops2:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

About naming the structure, many have different ways of explaining them. 

If they are clean and separate, I call them 2x2 1x1 no matter if they work or not.
Nubs to me, sound bad as you cannot describe what is meant there. So buyers may assume the worse. 
It could be a split or fish teat sitting there. Or just a 2x2 well separate clean treated goat, but have the 2 are smaller ones and non, just nonfunctional.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Jessica - I agree, some have no issues feeding kids, it's just an eye sore if you look at them, especially if they are in milk and you can see them more clearly vs tucked up to the body when they are dry or before 1st freshening.
Ok, don't laugh, but when I was worried about this buck having 3 teats, the breeder told me to go look for an orifice on the teats. Well it's a male, I had no idea they had orifices lol!!!! My dumb moment. But also shows... it's just not something I've ever had to worry about.
So... I put this buck on the stand, used the flashlight from my phone and saw only 1 orifice on the big teat, nothing on the 2 smaller non functional teats, same with the other side, 1 big teat with orifice and 2 smaller ones with nothing.
So if you really need or want to know, that's how you can check to see how many would be functional vs. non functional.


Pam - I agree about someone was drunk lol. I can understand changing and allowing a few of those Acceptable teats, but the last ones.... those are a big reach. So when I randomly look through the sale consignments, ads, etc. you'll see these really nice goats...but then they are not show correct due to teat structure. With so many combinations being allowed, it's a real bummer when you run across that, especially if the goat looks like it has everything else going for it.


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

Nubs? this is what I call nubs, maybe someone else has a different idea? Letty had one for a few days, then gone, no milk in it, this was an old goat I had, I wanted to get a pic of Letty's but its gone now, it was 1/2 the size of this nub

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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok I’ll have to look for orfices, if I can see them lol I had so many 1 good long teat with a little teat and I was just going to call them 2 but didn’t want anyone to get annoyed that they did not in fact have 2 working teats.
And oh my gosh so drunk on that chart! I have just now, probably the last two ish years started to really get picky about does teats and some of those I’m like why? And on others I’m like how! I’m wondering if they got more forgiving on teats because sometimes those odd ball teats sometimes just shows up and people don’t think that a other wise totally correct doe won’t be able to show. Sure kids could probably nurse off all those teats but coming from someone that doesn’t even show I thought the original chart was a very fair and accurate chart. I think they are just getting way out of touch with what ultimately a boer should be. That is basically a hardy animal with strong maternal traits, that has teats that you shouldn’t have to step in and help kids, a high daily gain with a good carcass yield. But honestly that’s how it is with every animal. It seems eventually the show side drifts more and more away from what those animals are truly meant to be and used for. 
Then again maybe I’m wrong and they really did have some kind of logical reason behind it that I’m just not seeing lol


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I so agree with you guys. (highfive)


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