# IBGA, ABGA, or USBGA?



## EandEBoersWV

I'm looking into getting some registered stock since I only have a commercial herd right now. I have one doe that is for sure registered with the IBGA. I have another doe that comes from registered stock that I'm going to see if I can get the application for. She would also be IBGA. What I would like to know is, which registration association is best? I really don't plan on showing, but if I would all of them would be within a reasonable range; but ABGA would have the closest shows. I'm confused on the whole certain ones will recognize registrations within other ones(i.e. a goat registered 100% in IBGA might also be registered 100% ABGA). I know they just changed the rulings on this, but I'm not sure how it all would effect me as a breeder. It's all so confusing :?


----------



## RPC

The biggest thing to look at is what are most people in your area registered as? Most everyone here likes ABGA because they are the only ones with shows around here. All of my registered ones are with USBGA except 1 is ABGA. Now USBGA will register the ABGA one no problem but ABGA will not register any goats that are not already registered with them unless it is a kid born from an ABGA sire.


----------



## Burns Branch Boers

I like all of the associations-IBGA and ABGA I have not had any goats nor gone to any USBGA events yet.

As a breeder/seller

I would not be rasing fullbloods that were not registered with ABGA. Sadly ABGA rules the playground and to play you gotta be a member. 

I think it would be hard for you to sell 100% full bloods that are NOT registerable with ABGA. Most people will dual register their goats with IBGA after they are all set through ABGA.


----------



## toth boer goats

I agree... ABGA is the most popular.... :wink:


----------



## HoosierShadow

Our original registered buck was IBGA, and so the daughter we kept as a 50% from him is IBGA. The buck we bought last fall is dual registered with IBGA/ABGA, but since we can't register the doe's kids with ABGA as 75%. The 2 fullblood doelings we bought are being registered with IBGA, but the breeder is trying to transfer everything to ABGA, and said she'd let us know if they accept her herd or not so we can dual register.
We did register our buck with IBGA, but haven't/dont plan on registering with ABGA since they don't want to recognize our does...if that makes sense.
We don't do the shows anyway, just fairs for 4-H stuff, but there are a lot of IBGA shows here, and some ABGA.


----------



## cowgirlboergoats

if it is a boer do the abga and i have my goats and you can do weathers. i have all of my does and buck in the abga


----------



## nameless_alice

I almost bought a buck registered IBGA recently.
My does are ABGA and I have been hearing from several people that ABGA will no longer be accepting IBGA registrations. :sigh: 
So my kids would have not been able to be registered with that buck.
I'm not sure on the exact rules either, but as someone was saying in a earlier post, ABGA is the big boy so to speak. If you wanna play, you have join their team.


----------



## toth boer goats

I believe...ABGA was the first association....It is terrible... that they have to be this way about IBGA....and it makes things a lot harder for the breeders and buyers wanting a beautiful registered IBGA buck....


----------



## HoosierShadow

We are with IBGA, simply because our 50% doe was registered IBGA, and we don't want her 75% doelings being considered 50%. The 2 fullblood doelings we bought are IBGA.

Our buck is IBGA/ABGA, we've transferred him into our name with IBGA, but haven't/weren't planning to with ABGA... we want to stick with one since we aren't into showing outside of 4-H.


----------



## toth boer goats

I wish we had a choice though.... ABGA is so mean.....


----------



## nameless_alice

toth boer goats said:


> I believe...ABGA was the first association....It is terrible... that they have to be this way about IBGA....and it makes things a lot harder for the breeders and buyers wanting a beautiful registered IBGA buck....


I know, the buck I found was so gorgeous, both build and color. 
Also a really good genetic background for a steal of a price.  
Is there some reason they are doing this or just because they can?
Kinda like AKC and CKC with dogs.


----------



## toth boer goats

Something happened... that made each association angry... I believe... it went to court...but.... I don't know what happened.....


----------



## nameless_alice

Sadly it just makes things harder on the breeders.
Maybe they will all work it out eventually. :shrug: 
Seems like it will lead to weaker Boers in the future by excluding so many good ones from registration.


----------



## toth boer goats

I agree...it is a big mistake on ABGA's part.....


----------



## nameless_alice

I think their memberships will show that too.
Most people that have registered animals close to me have dairy breeds.
But I have talked with several boer breeders that plan to not renew with ABGA. 
I guess they will replace their stock or just stop registering them. 
I don't have much choice, I couldn't part with my girls, so ABGA it is. :sigh:


----------



## caprine crazy

It's not fair to the breeders to have to suffer for the association getting mad. It's not our fault so why should we be punished?


----------



## Jessica84

I just went a head and became a member with both ibga and abga....i have 2 ibga does and 5 abga...i just keep the abga goats i buy as abga that way if i sell them or the kids the buyer has a choice of all three places. Im not sure about the showing stuff but if thats what you are wanting to do i would go with what is popular. As for better i would only lean more to ibga but only because to me they are more friendly


----------



## toth boer goats

> I think their memberships will show that too.
> Most people that have registered animals close to me have dairy breeds.
> But I have talked with several boer breeders that plan to not renew with ABGA.
> I guess they will replace their stock or just stop registering them.
> I don't have much choice, I couldn't part with my girls, so ABGA it is. :sigh:


 I know what you mean :hug:



> It's not fair to the breeders to have to suffer for the association getting mad. It's not our fault so why should we be punished?


 I totally agree with you ..... it is very unfair to all of us..... they should care about the breeders/goats ......it is so hard on us now... we have to watch what association a goat is in... before we purchase a goat...some goats are so wanted but.... we cannot get them because our buck or doe ...is with the wrong association...  :hug:


----------



## Kimmerz Cali Kidz

:leap: I have the answer! We all join USBGA! They register IBGA & ABGA and are VERY user friendly!! Then we can still register ALL our beautiful registerable stock! whether they be ABGA, IBGA or USBGA... When all of us join the same team we will have more going our way!! :grouphug: 

Food for thought! :chin:


----------



## stagestopboergoats

I see it like AKC is to ABGA as UKC (?) is to IBGA. Stick with the original. Not sure why IBGA started....but with dogs if they aren't AKC there was usually a good reason why they were disallowed.


----------



## toth boer goats

That is true.


----------



## HoosierShadow

Hmmm... I don't see how ABGA goats were better than IBGA goats? why there would be a good reason to be disallowed.
Nearly 100% of the goats I've seen in person were dual registered and many from champion bloodlines. 
Sure I don't know all the details, but just seems they were looking for a quarrel when one started rejecting the other. Rumors over the summer shows were that ABGA wanted IBGA to go down.


----------



## toth boer goats

The whole fight is ridiculous, I know.

IBGA and ABGA goats are the same, no matter the registry.


----------



## HoosierShadow

toth boer goats said:


> The whole fight is ridiculous, I know.
> 
> IBGA and ABGA goats are the same, no matter the registry.


It sure is  I still think IBGA could have done a better job at notifying everyone SOONER rather than later. They knew this was going to happen, IMO, and should have taken care of things with ABGA much sooner so that IBGA members weren't left hanging in the wind.
It's very frustrating. 
Now it leaves me trying to find out if my kids can show their yearling percentage does in the county fairs & state fair with their IBGA papers until we can eventually get them transferred to ABGA.
And my son has a 75% baby doe he wants to show, but dam is IBGA/sire is IBGA/ABGA but because of the dam they'd only recognize her as 50%  
With as frustrating as it is for us, I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating it is for people who have large herds.


----------



## HoopinHollersBoerGoats

The IBGA went out of business on the last day of 2012.


----------



## toth boer goats

I agree, IBGA should of let the members know way in advance of this. I hope they don't cheat anyone and can figure out, how they are going to handle this, quickly. I do feel sorry for all these members going through this issue.


----------



## HoosierShadow

HoopinHollersBoerGoats said:


> The IBGA went out of business on the last day of 2012.


Yep, and didn't get a letter about it until about 2 1/2 weeks later, good thing for internet, many of the people I know around here that breed on a large level and use IBGA didn't even know until I mentioned it 

BTW, I know who you are, your in KY, right? I have your business card on my desk  We met several times last summer at the fairs. We just recently sold our buck that was a son of your buck. If your the same person, it's great to see you on here, you guys have an outstanding herd of goats, and we really enjoyed talking with you.


----------



## bayouboergoats

Just posting so everyone can read what ABGA released to the public.

*American Boer Goat Association Announcement *

*February 1, 2013 *

*Re: International Boer Goat Association Members and Registrations*

The American Boer Goat Association (ABGA) Board of Directors has been diligently working on a plan of action to make the transition as easy as possible for the members affected by the recent International Boer Goat Association's closure. The ABGA is proud of the Boer industry, the accuracy & integrity of our certification database, the documentation that we provide to our members and most of all the members that make us a strong industry leader. The American Boer Goat Association is happy to extend an invitation to the International Boer Goat Association members to join the ABGA family and friends. As we move forward, we ask for your continued patience.

Please read the following carefully as we will provide much needed information and details to make the transition as seamless as possible for you and our current members. There will be numerous references to the ABGA Rules and Regulations that can be found on the ABGA website www.abga.org under the Membership tab.

*Membership:*

· Membership is not required; however membership will secure membership pricing vs non-member/inactive pricing on work submitted. Fee Schedule may be found under the Registrations tab on the ABGA website. Rules 100-103

· Adult Membership is $60.00 per year and Junior Membership is $30.00 per year

· Membership Benefits/Services -

o Online Premium - Online registrations, searchable registry database with animal and member inquiry

o Ability to vote in Board elections

o A subscription to The Boer Goat Magazine

o Online Show Results

· You can join ABGA/JABGA by completing the ABGA Membership Application or the ABGA Junior Membership Application available under the Registrations tab, click on forms

OR

Join online by clicking "Join Now" or "Join ABGA".

*Registrations Requirements:*

· As the breeder, you may submit the ABGA Application for Registration in accordance with existing ABGA rules of registration, providing that the sire and dam are active in the ABGA database and are owned by you or you have provided all required supporting documentation on the applicable ABGA form(s) (i.e. service memo, flush sheet, etc).

OR

· The *original *International Boer Goat Association certificate must be submitted to ABGA by the current owner(s) as shown on the certificate.

· ABGA "herd prefix" or "herd letters" will be required. Rule 211. For information regarding "herd name" refer to Rule 212.

· *An ABGA Application for Registration form must be completed by the current owner(s) as registered/issued on the International Boer Goat Association certificate. Forms may be found under the Registrations tab on the ABGA website. Rule 209B. Do not use the ABGA Multiple Registration Application for Breeder.

· *These transactions qualify as a registration and not a transfer; therefore, applicable pricing may be found on the ABGA Fee Schedule.

· As the breeder, you may submit the ABGA Application for Registration in accordance with existing ABGA rules of registration, providing that the sire and dam are active in the ABGA database and are owned by you or you have provided all required supporting documentation on the applicable ABGA form(s) (i.e. service memo, flush sheet, etc).

· Deadline for processing registrations within this guideline will be *midnight, December 31, 2013*. *NO EXCEPTIONS WILL BE CONSIDERED*.

**Due to the incompatibility of the two databases, the ABGA Board of Directors has taken a "face value" "baseline" approach to register the International Boer Goat Association's animals in order to prevent extreme delays and inconsistencies. Provided that you have submitted all of the required documentation and applicable fees and no conflicting issues exist, you will receive an ABGA registration certificate representative of the current International Boer Goat Association certificate with the sire and dam one generation pedigree only.*

***Awards Programs:*

· ABGA will only recognize points under the current ABGA Awards Program. (Ennoblement, Sire of Merit and Doe of Excellence)

***Sanctioned Shows:*

· ABGA is unable to accept points from shows other than those sanctioned by ABGA.

*** Due to the extreme differences between associations' awards programs, ABGA Board of Directors has taken the direction that is in the best interest of the members and animal representation.*

*Judges:*

· *****Any International Boer Goat Association approved judge will need to meet all of the certification requirements of the ABGA Judge Certification Program.

****Due to the differences in the judge program certification, qualifications and criteria, ABGA Board of Directors has taken the direction that is in the best interest of the members.*


----------



## HoosierShadow

Oh wow... so they really are going to charge the members registration fees for all IBGA instead of transfer fees? WOW. I can see a lot of people being highly upset about that. I have to say I figured they would be a little easier going, especially on people who would join and transfer this year. 

For us, this would mean:
Junior membership $30
Herd prefix $5
Transfer ABGA buck into our sons name $5
Percentage Does: 4 = $40
Fullblood Does: 2 = $32

Then my daughter's percentage doe = $20
since she wouldn't be a member & wouldn't be worth getting a junior membership just for 1 doe...

Am I guessing right at the thought that there will most likely be a lot of IBGA goats for sale soon? I just can't see all these breeders reregistering their entire herds like this? 
And for the people who show, their show goats will lose all their value as well? 
Surely they could find a way to honor the IBGA points you know have it on paper what the goats gained with IBGA, then what they gain with ABGA...
I feel bad for those who show and have tried working their goats up in the point system...


----------



## bayouboergoats

I agree also I thought for sure they would do better on the switch but from what they posted it is looking like I guess not. I feel bad for those who have IBGA show goats with ennoblements and now they are basically worthless.

I only have 3 does that are IBGA but I never switched them into my name so I am guessing I will not be able to register them with the ABGA unless I contact the previous owner and have her do it...but that was quite a few years ago and I am not sure if I will even be able to get ahold of her.


----------



## HoosierShadow

Yep, I am sure all the big IBGA breeders are in a fury fit right now. If this is how they wanted to work with IBGA members, IMO it's not very appealing at all.

I've contacted a person at USBGA, going to try and get them to talk to our state ag youth person and make sure that the county fairs will not deny USBGA papers. If it works out, then we'll most likely switch to USBGA.

If we were into sanctioned shows, and selling show potential stock, etc. ABGA would be ideal. But since we're just doing this for 4-H, and have no interest in sanctioned shows...
ABGA would cost us $132. It would cost us $62 to do the SAME thing with USBGA! That's what I was guessing we'd pay, maybe $70 at most.

I guess I'll wait and see what I can find out about USBGA, and talk to my husband, then decide what we should do from there.
I'm so confused at the moment on what will be the best option, but overall I just like USBGA. 
I wonder if a lot of local IBGA people will switch to USBGA, especially with ennoblement issues, fees, etc.


----------



## JenVise

I guess I will be keeping my IBGA registered goats as is...I will NOT pay that amount of money for a piece of paper saying that my goats are as good as I know they are! How could they be so calloused about it???  I think I'll at least be looking into USBGA...


----------



## HoosierShadow

JenVise said:


> I guess I will be keeping my IBGA registered goats as is...I will NOT pay that amount of money for a piece of paper saying that my goats are as good as I know they are! How could they be so calloused about it???  I think I'll at least be looking into USBGA...


You'd think that if USBGA can afford to offer IBGA members a $3 transfer, then ABGA could afford to give IBGA at least a $5 transfer. I'd be happy if it was a $5 transfer, but I don't agree to $10-16 on goats that are already registered. I know ABGA is the top dog in boer registration here, but again, if USBGA can afford the cut for new members, why can't ABGA...
And then the show people losing all that they've worked hard for. So sad.


----------



## JenVise

hoosiershadow said:


> you'd think that if usbga can afford to offer ibga members a $3 transfer, then abga could afford to give ibga at least a $5 transfer. I'd be happy if it was a $5 transfer, but i don't agree to $10-16 on goats that are already registered. I know abga is the top dog in boer registration here, but again, if usbga can afford the cut for new members, why can't abga...
> And then the show people losing all that they've worked hard for. So sad.


agreed!!!!


----------



## HoosierShadow

JenVise said:


> agreed!!!!


Thanks, I'm glad someone agrees with me lol 

I asked on their facebook page why they are doing the fees this way, when USBGA is offering a $3 transfer fee. I'd really like to know why they can't offer IBGA members a break at least for a limited time like USBGA. 
I'd really like to know. Again, I know USBGA isn't as popular as ABGA, but they are still a registry and from what I've heard there are parts of the US where they are very very popular. Still aggravating. I need to get all the papers filled out, and get this ball rolling for the kids, and I'm not sure which way to go


----------



## Maggie

HoosierShadow said:


> Yep, I am sure all the big IBGA breeders are in a fury fit right now. If this is how they wanted to work with IBGA members, IMO it's not very appealing at all.


I am ABGA and am in a fury right now! This is all just completely wrong!


----------



## chelsboers

I missed something. Why are IBGA members mad?


----------



## ogfabby

Ibga closed and ABGA is willing to take them, just charging full registration prices and they are not recognizing any show points.


----------



## Maggie

IBGA closed and ABGA is supposed to accept them into their registry. USBGA is offering reduced fees to join, ABGA is not. So members have to pay the higher registry fee instead of just being able to transfer already registered goats over. And also ABGA will only offer 2 generation pedigrees which is ridiculous.


----------



## Maggie

ogfabby, you beat me posting. I forgot about the show points too.


----------



## HoosierShadow

Basically, what it means is, all IBGA breeders who have been successful showing/raising quality herds are being put out to pasture...having to start all over again 
I am so glad now that we didn't invest in getting some really nice, expensive, IBGA does because at one time we had thought about selling everyone except 1 doe and just getting a couple of quality does.
So glad we stuck with what we have. At least with ABGA, our twin yearling does, and the 2 baby girls will have a full pedigree on the sire side since he's IBGA/ABGA.
But our 2 IBGA fullbloods? heh. They aren't from big fancy show bloodlines, but still... IMO if IBGA members have to pay full price for registration, then they should be listing the pedigree AS IT IS on the IBGA registration papers! 
They could at least do that much, IMO.

I know a breeder that raises Codi PCI goats, that's all she keeps in her herd, and now that 'Codi PCI' means nothing. Her goats are just like anyone elses goats because of the way they want to do the pedigree.

As badly as I want to use USBGA, after sleeping and thinking about it, I'll most likely just register the kids goats with ABGA.
I just may not be able to do everyone at the same time.

I may end up just doing some now, and some later --- getting my son's membership, herd prefix, transfer the buck into his name, register his IBGA 50% doe, so we can register her 75% baby doe, register another 50% baby. Then next month, register the other 2 percentage does & fullbloods with ABGA.
It'll cost me $70 to do that, and then $62 to get the other 4 done next month.

They said it's because it costs them to process things, and they don't want to take a loss <basically>, so that's why they are charging full price. I'm still not happy about that, especially since USBGA is the smaller registry compared to them and they can afford a price cut.


----------



## Maggie

IMO IBGA should have taken care of this before closing. I highly doubt ABGA needs all those costs to process papers, and why should it be full price when you aren't getting full papers with full pedigree? ABGA is going to profit from all the new members anyways, it means more membership fees coming in, more people paying to show, etc so why can't they take a small hit now? 
And all the new IBGA goats are just going to increase the genetics available. I don't like at all that you only get 2 generation pedigree, how are you going to be sure you aren't completely inbreeding your animals?


----------



## caprine crazy

I feel for IBGA members. It's ridiculous that they are charging that much and you're getting NOTHING out of it! I've always thought ABGA was pricey, especially just for an adult membership. $60 is so high! If you think about it, ABGA is like ADGA in the dairy goat world. I don't see ADGA charging that much for a membership and pretty much gettting the same things; online advantages, lower fees, and a chance to show off your animals. The only thing ADGA doesn't do is the magazine subscription. It shouldn't cost that much.


----------



## clearwtrbeach

I still think the entire ABGA closed is wrong. Like I've said several times, I bought a buck USBGA FB born 2009; the owners didn't dual reg. him. I had bought him this year and all 4 of his grandparents are FB ABGA and they still wouldn't register him. There are still a number of USBGA breeders around here. I will dual register any of my ABGA animals (I'll only maintain less than 10 animals- so I will afford it) with USBGA; if for no reason other than to continue the support of USBGA. 
As for ABGA and the price issues, it's only going to get worse if something happens to USBGA. As for ABGA not recognizing show points, I haven't looked at the IBGA show standards, if they are the same standards they should be recognized. 
Who owns the actual ABGA registration??


----------



## ogfabby

Evidently, there was a big blow up in the abga several years ago about standards/ect... That is when a few members split and formed ibga. The standards are a little different. Abga tends to go for "pretty" goats and ibga has a more working standard. It's kind of like ukc and akc in dogs. Akc has the pretty ones while ukc has a more working base. 
On one hand, I understand because there are differences in the pedigrees and evidently, ibga was VERY behind in their record keeping. If they were to allow ibga goats in with show points, this could upset the current members with show points due to the difference in standards, ect.... It's really a loose loose situation for everyone. I think they just took the route that would upset current members less vs the new members.


----------



## clearwtrbeach

Well then I can understand the show difference. In Europe dogs (use to be at least) had to not only -what we call conformation here' pass but what they were bred to do as well for their championship. We had show Bouviers, in Europe they (again use to be) had to pass conformation and working. Which personally I agree with be it dogs or goats, if ADGA is judging on 'dairy' qualities- since that's the goats purpose. Boers should also be judged on meat potential. 
Just my opinion, and I hate seeing monopolies take over giving people no other choice no matter what it is.


----------



## HoosierShadow

I deleted my post since there were so many replies lol

I agree 110% about the fees. They are going to make a lot of $$ and the end result, IBGA members IMO will just be screwed, to put it 'nicely'  
The fee alone, but to only get 1-2 generations on a registered fullblood?
Like Maggie said - how do you know your not inbreeding?
Your not getting any more information on a fullblood than you are a 75% registered doe! But you have to pay$16 for that? 
If they want IBGA to pay full price, then they need put every bit of information on a goats IBGA registration pedigree <4 generations I think?>, on that goats ABGA paper, or at least in their system.

My head is just swirling here. Sure we only have 5 IBGA registered goats, but OMG! We paid more for the fullbloods because they were fullbloods with papers. Now, they are basically worthless on paper.
We have a Codi Pci doe we wanted to breed to a friends Codi pci buck this fall to keep her babies 100% Codi Pci, and now that idea is shot down. 
That breeder friend only raises the IBGA Codi Pci, and now their pedigree is basically worth nothing?

Nobody is winning here. But I have to agree, ABGA sure will make $$ off of the IBGA people.

How does USBGA do it? Do they list more of the pedigree? 
I really REALLY wish USBGA was more popular in this area...


----------



## toth boer goats

How awful


----------



## HoosierShadow

A friend left a message on my voicemail today. She said the grandsire of most of her goats are in the ABGA database, and therefor she should get his pedigree listed on her ABGA papers. But from what I understand, they won't be doing that? To me it looks like any IBGA would be 1 generation and no exceptions?


----------



## Dani-1995

I can understand not accpeting show points for the difference in standard. However they should allow a full pedigree to prevent in breeding problems and lower their prices for a limited time, at least.


----------



## FaRmEr FrEaK

Well clearly the IBGA is not an option since they shut down but I reccomend the ABGA because I have had great customer service, and the shows are awesome I have not dealt much with the USBGA but if i were you I would go with the ABGA


----------



## HoosierShadow

Well I've printed the ABGA forms, We're going to register some, then do the rest probably next month since ABGA decided to charge full price.
Good news is, we don't have to buy a herd prefix since it's included in Junior membership, and I was told the pedigree for the buck we had will show up on all of his babies who are registered with IBGA, since he is is dual registered.

So I'm working on the forms now, I've got all the original registration papers scanned in, and will scan in the ABGA applications so I have copies of everything.

I know ABGA is a great registry, I'm sure we'll be happy once this mess is all over. But it's just so costly, especially for people like us <I try to do this with 'My' $$ --- I'm a stay at home mom>, so it hurts my budget a bit. Everything will work out, but whew...one thing after another lol


----------



## HoosierShadow

I noticed that the check for the ABGA papers has been cashed, that didn't take long, I figured they'd be swarmed with paperwork. Wonder how long it will be before we get them back?


----------



## DAGills

I was 16 when I bought my first goats, I wa totally unaware of the split.


Now I have 7 does, 3 IBGA(that I'm transferring to ABGA since they went out of business) and 4 USBGA.

I have 3 bucks, one Ibga, one USBGA and one ABGA.

I'm 18 now and have had many people inquire about my goats, only to tell me they weren't interested after they found out the were registered USBGA.

It sucks because my nicest goats are USBGA


----------



## HoosierShadow

I had to call ABGA for a couple of questions, and checked on the status of IBGA goat registration.

She said they haven't started processing the IBGA papers, but the last update was that they would start at the end of this month & would go in order of papers received.

Thought I'd share that with everyone


----------

