# ABGA new eligibility for registration ?



## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

I’ve been out of the loop when it comes to what ABGA is doing but heard at a recent auction something about changing eligibility for bucks to register their kids. I’ve looked all over the ABGA site and couldn’t find anything. I know about bucks and getting DNA’d but are they allowing kids to be registered out of lower percentage bucks?


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Yes, they will start allowing % bucks to be registered effective August 15th. I'll post a flier that a friend sent me on the ABGA discussion page on FB. 
They have to be at least 50%, and DNA tested if used for breeding. They will also be allowing 25% does to be registered with this rule change. The %'s are going to be super confusing IMO. I'm not great with math lol


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## chelsboers (Mar 25, 2010)

Thank you so much! I looked all over their FB page but couldn’t find it there either. Seems strange to allow 25% does. I guess that’s because if you have a 50% and a non registered then you have too. I’m awful at calculating percentages also but luckily my husband can for me


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

That is going to make it SO confusing! So if a 50% buck breeds a 25% doe that will make it a 37.5%. I mean the math it’s self isn’t bad (add both sire and dams % divide by 2) but trying to explain the percentage thing now to new boer owners is hard enough. 
But at the same time if a buck is actually 50% it should get recognized for it. I’m just gonna stick with my 100% bucks lol


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Your welcome Chelsea!

I agree Jessica, it's going to be way confusing explaining to people and just off the top of your head guessing this % or that %. I like the basics of 50, 75, 88, 94, etc. 
I agree, I want to stay with the 100% bucks. But at the same time if we ever got a bigger place and got a nice % buck kid, it would be fun to experiment! 
They won't have shows for % bucks, but I hope that changes in the near future. I know a lot of people don't like bringing in % bucks, but I think it will just make crossing Boers with other breeds more exciting. There are so many nice % does out there.
Of course, sadly that means there will be people who will register FB animals as % to get an advantage, happens a lot with the does. However with the DNA testing, eventually I wonder if they could weed that out with how strongly DNA matches parents/grandparents (sires, since dams don't have to be DNA tested). Will be interesting.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh wow, what a mess that is going to be.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I wonder if they will start doing actual percentage on does now. What I mean is, if I had a 97% buck and bred to a commercial doe, the offspring doeling, before this, would be a 50%. I wonder if now it would be a 48.5 or a 49%
I guess this would be useful to some, and I never understood why a doe could be a 50% and not a buck, but I think dropping the does to 25% is going to be what causes the mess.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I definitely agree - mess. Unless they make the breakdown a little more simple, and not have every single kind of % breakdown. 
I'm for it because they already allow U Bucks to be bred to FB/PB does to create 50%. I know it will make things crazy since they are allowing % Bucks to breed % Does. IMO, they should have just allowed % Bucks to breed FB/PB does to get % kids, or vice versa - FB/PB Bucks to breed % does and get % offspring. So, I am not in agreement with % breeding %, someone needs to be a FB/PB.

It will be 'interesting' to see how many of those lower %'s actually look like % and not FB/PB's...which is what has been happening for a while now, especially in the show ring.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Now just on the breeding side, not the showing side, I have a good handful of commercial boer does. One I know is a 98 but I was screwed out of her papers. Tho others you can just look at them and tell they are more boer then anything else, but the best I can do on their kids is 50%.
I hate that! They are wonderful does and I won’t hold that against them but I can see your side and how frustrating it can be


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I understand that Jessica, and those are definitely not the goats I worry about. I have friends in the same boat! They were new, bought a herd, and they came with IBGA papers.. problem is IBGA closed and ABGA's deadline to transfer IBGA goats was over. My post about FB/PB showing up as %'s is aimed at those who intentionally do it. It unfortunately happens a lot  

Now that ABGA is opening up all these cans of worms so to speak (lol), I wish I could get them to amend our does pedigrees. We had IBGA goats, and had to get G#'s. We have a lot of family from one doe and the only ones in her family that I believe were not ABGA registered were just her parents. Same with my daughters doe Wysteria, she has a G#. Her sire was dual registered, but because of the way ABGA did things... they would have made her a 50%, when she is actually a 75%. So frustrating... Wysteria's sire had an awesome pedigree!


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

HoosierShadow said:


> Yes, they will start allowing % bucks to be registered effective August 15th. I'll post a flier that a friend sent me on the ABGA discussion page on FB.
> They have to be at least 50%, and DNA tested if used for breeding. They will also be allowing 25% does to be registered with this rule change. The %'s are going to be super confusing IMO. I'm not great with math lol


Hey, can you explain #1 a bit to me? From what I'm understanding, is a purebred sire bred to a commercial does not equate a 50% doeling or buckling? I'm confused, does that mean only fullblood sire/dam crossed on a commercial will be eligible for 50%?
Our Boer buck is fullblood anyway, I was already counting on the bucklings ending up wethers or going to commercial breeders because all my does are commercial. I just saw someone post something about this on facebook earlier today and had to go look it up. 
Our Boer buck is actually only bred to 1 commercial this year, the other 2 commercial does were bred to my PB Nubian buck. 
So, I could hypothetically keep a doeling out of one of my commercials bred to the Nubian, breed her back to (all hypothetical here) a buckling kept from my commercial/fullblood mating, and register doelings as 25%, right? 
I kind of see how it's a good thing allowing 25% does. It does allow for a bit more genetic diversity. Rather than having to breed back to my fullblood for registerable offspring, I can breed to a son of his, thus eliminating a genetic bottleneck within 2 generations. You could then breed the 25% doe back to her grandfather, and while linebreeding, it still isn't THAT close. I think it lends a bit more to creating type within your own herd without having to buy a new buck every year or other year to keep from getting into a scene from Deliverance - of course this depends on the quality of the 50% bucklings you are producing but that goes for outcrosses as well. 
Whether or not I would do this remains to be seen, but it makes sense for cost effectiveness and still maintaining registered stock. It also lends to adding more "color" into our herd. 
Example - our FB Boer is red and white spotted. All my commercial does except one are traditional, one is solid red with 1 tiny white spot. My Nubian buck is black and tan with white, but both parents are moonspotted. Color seems to be "in" and while I'm a horse person and "no good horse is a bad color" it is nice to see some variation.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

For your question about #1. Lets say you breed a commercial to a purebred 99.9%. There is no way you can get a 50% from that. So therefor, one parent has to be 100% in order to get the 50% that bucks are required to have.
I do however think...they shouldn't allow a % buck to breed a % doe or vice versa. I think they should have kept the rules the same and not changed that part. But hopefully it creates something interesting. 
At least make the minimum allowed for registering 50%. I think 25% is just too low. 

As for breeding back and forth if I understood correctly. While it seems like a good idea, and you might get good results, I don't think it would look good on paper. That's JMO. We have some goats that go back to having dad bred to daughter, etc. and it's just not appealing when you look at it on paper. There are plenty of bloodlines out there to cross with. Now... we have done that once - bred a doe to her sires full brother. Ended up with a beautiful & perfect doe kid. But also an underdeveloped and deformed doe kid that died after birth. That surviving doe has gone on to kid perfect and beautiful babies for her owner. But... I will never breed like that again intentionally.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I see a lot of breeders with awesome bucks line breed like crazy! No one seems to hold it against them and actually seem to want those more. But I’m also talking about a buck that is pretty much flawless too. The idea behind that is the first offspring is 50% of that buck, breed again and it’s 75% of that buck.
Honestly I don’t care either way. But I also look at the animal more then who’s on the papers. I know a lot of breeders are hesitant to line breed because they don’t want to chance any flaws. I have never gone out of my way to line breed but after loosing a buck I had to. Some of the crosses were great others I was not overly thrilled about. I am seriously considering line breeding 2 does next year back to sire. I always want the off spring to be as good or better then sire and or dam and even though 99% of the buck they were bred to kids are stunning I wasn’t that thrilled with their kids, and they are beautiful does. Their sire is the better buck of the two so I might breed them back to him next year, but I have months to think on it 
There’s a thread that was started not long ago about in breeding that goathiker started if you search and find it


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I thought there was a thread about it not too long ago. I'm glad you have had good success in doing that Jessica. I don't prefer it myself, and won't do any kind of inbreeding/line breeding if I can help it. We had a Parrot Mouth come out of that kind of deal, and a deformed & underdeveloped kid. Plus, I've seen where they throw bites that are off, and some where the bite isn't bad when they are young, but gets bad as they get older.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

No way would I bash one way or the other. If I had that no way would I consider doing it again either, no matter what anyone says lol so please don’t think that I was shooting down what you said at all


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

It's no problem at all, I know what you were saying  I do agree there are definitely good ones out there. It's all about having a lot of luck and the right genetics that you can cross that way. 
I'm way too scared to consider doing that again. I'd have to be really desperate!


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

If done properly, line/inbreeding can be a good tool for improving a herd. Inbreeding is how most breeds of domestic animals came into being, you just have to be ready to cull heavily, if needed.


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

HoosierShadow said:


> For your question about #1. Lets say you breed a commercial to a purebred 99.9%. There is no way you can get a 50% from that. So therefor, one parent has to be 100% in order to get the 50% that bucks are required to have.
> I do however think...they shouldn't allow a % buck to breed a % doe or vice versa. I think they should have kept the rules the same and not changed that part. But hopefully it creates something interesting.
> At least make the minimum allowed for registering 50%. I think 25% is just too low.
> 
> As for breeding back and forth if I understood correctly. While it seems like a good idea, and you might get good results, I don't think it would look good on paper. That's JMO. We have some goats that go back to having dad bred to daughter, etc. and it's just not appealing when you look at it on paper. There are plenty of bloodlines out there to cross with. Now... we have done that once - bred a doe to her sires full brother. Ended up with a beautiful & perfect doe kid. But also an underdeveloped and deformed doe kid that died after birth. That surviving doe has gone on to kid perfect and beautiful babies for her owner. But... I will never breed like that again intentionally.


Thanks, that's what I thought. Our buck is fullblood. I bred him to a commercial doe that was shown that is really nice. They should throw some really nice kids together. I wasn't sure if that meant a purebred (high percentage) bred to a 25% would not result in a 50% - which makes sense when you look at it on paper as a hypothetical. I have to break that down "Barney style" on paper to get it. 
I understand the 25% could be a higher percentage when you're adding in commercial stock. A lot of commercial stock is well bred and a higher percentage of Boer than it is on paper simply for the fact that not everybody registers. I have a "commercial" doe that is registered and I don't have the papers on and will never get them. It doesn't really matter to me, as we are working on our Boer herd to produce meat market offspring for 4H and FFA showing and they don't need papers, but it does hurt their value as breeders after the fact for the does.

Or, example, another commercial doe I have is bred to my PB Nubian buck. Nothing registerable there with ADGA or ABGA since my Nubian is purebred but knowing he's bred to a meat breed they aren't eligible. But hypothetically if I bred a doeling from my Nubian/Commercial to a 50% buckling out of my show commercial and fullblood Boer it would be a 25% registerable doeling, even though the true percentage of Boer in that offspring is higher. It does give me a bit of leeway in maintaining registerable Boer kids in a shorter generational span - otherwise the Nubian/commercial doelings would have to be bred back to my FB Boer buck instead of his son, whereas an outcome from that 25% doeling and my FB Boer buck (or any FB Boer buck) would be higher percentage (I can't math today but I think 62.5%).

I have zero problem with linebreeding. To me, that means it has strong genetics and minimal flaws in the line, or they would show up quickly. You do the run the risk of having defects if there are any, and due to the close lineage they are more likely to show, but it also shows what kind of issues you could have crop up later unexpectedly. That said, being a meat breed, being ready to cull heavily is an option for us, and anything that doesn't turn out well can go in the freezer and notated in my records that the cross is poor (goes for outcrossing too) and not to repeat a breeding there, and also what to look for in both animals in future breeding. Linebreeding can hurt or help depending on how you use it, IMHO but I do know there are people that do not linebreed and I don't have an issue with that either, as I will buy from them to use as outcrosses, but it is widely unknown what you will get genetically.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm getting ready to head out the door, but wanted to comment. Bucks have to be 50% in order to be registerable. But does can be 25% so I'd assume you could breed them to get a 25%. I'm lousy with math, and this is going to make my brain hurt lol!! We always use a 100% buck, so thankfully, I shouldn't have to worry about those calculations with our own herd. But if we had more land to keep more goats, it sure would be fun to experiment with a nice % buck.


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

If they are going to 25% does and 50% bucks being registerable, then the offspring of those two would be 37.5% - and only doe kids. 
Then say that 37.5% is a doe, breed it to another 50% buck and you have 43.75% - let's assume for sanity these are all does...
Gen 1 - 25% x 50% = 37.5%
Gen 2 - 37.5% x 50% = 43.75%
43.75% doe w 50% buck - 46.875%
46.875% w 50% buck - 48.43%
48.43% x 50% - 49.21%
49.21% x 50% - 49.60%
49.60% x 50% - 49.8%
49.8% x 50% - 49.9%
49.9% x 50% - 49.95%
49.95% x 50% - 49.975%
49.975% x 50% - 49.9875%

So, in 11 generations, you still don't have a registerable buck kid unless you breed up with a higher percentage than a 50% buck at some point. Though they may be very typey from using commercial stock on fullbloods to create the 50% - or could be crap with God only knows what in there. It would take literally a life time to breed up to purebred status from 25% without using a fullblood or high percentage purebred. As it is with a 50% doe and a fullblood buck, it takes 5 generations with fullblood bucks (unless my math is wrong and that could be but I come up on gen 4 as 96.875% not 97%) on the percentage does to make purebred bucks, and 3 for does. 
I won't bore you with the math, but in 1 generation, a 25% doe and a Fullblood buck make a 62.5%, which is more than a registerable doe requires right now already. Purebred status over 88% achieved in 4 generations when crossing on fullblood.
As it is, you could just breed your fullblood buck to her anyway and register the female offspring as 50% Boer, which isn't that much of a difference from that 62.5%. 
I think the only down side to 50% Boer bucks is breeding 50% and 50% or 25% - you go nowhere and what are you really introducing if you don't know what the other half is? Buyers are going to need to be pretty careful if they plan on breeding that way so they don't get a "where the heck did these gopher ears come from?" result, lol. I do see the revenue part of it, more registrations should result from this, whether from a pedigree and background standpoint or for folks wanting to put a registry name on their animals. 

I will say this, I hope the ladies at the ABGA office have their calculators ready to figure percentages after that - I know I had to use one on, especially when it gets into oddball numbers! 

Yeah I'm a bit baffled by the amount of math that took to come to that conclusion. I think I'll stick with my fullblood and 50% or more. Maybe I'll dabble in it with some crosses on my Nubian buck but that's going to be if linebreeding is going to be a poor option or outcrosses not in the budget - a good fullblood Boer buck in my area is $$$$. Guess it will just depend on how the year goes with kidding and if it's financially reasonable to drop big bucks on a new buck, or introduce new blood with an outcross on my dairy boys.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree, that is crazy when you look at all those %'s. They really should have kept it pretty basic, and kept a rule of 50% higher on both sexes. As far as ears go, they are supposed to pass Boer breed standards, so I'd think elf ears and airplane ears would be out. But... I'm sure people will breed them & register them anyway. 
I do agree with many, that it will hurt the true Boer goat in the end. But at the same time, I wonder if in the future we could come up with a modernized '%' buck that would be a good influence here in the US, especially since Boer goats originate from such a different climate and really a different lifestyle all together. A hardy goat with Boer breed standards as far as conformation/appearance would be interesting.


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## chicken-coop (Jan 19, 2014)

,


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## chicken-coop (Jan 19, 2014)

The ABGA has become a big joke with these rules changes. I and thousands more like me dropped our membership because of this change. Some of us have spent thousands of dollars aquiring the best genetics to olny have a few elected reps screw things up (like our government). Thanks


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

HoosierShadow said:


> I agree, that is crazy when you look at all those %'s. They really should have kept it pretty basic, and kept a rule of 50% higher on both sexes. As far as ears go, they are supposed to pass Boer breed standards, so I'd think elf ears and airplane ears would be out. But... I'm sure people will breed them & register them anyway.
> I do agree with many, that it will hurt the true Boer goat in the end. But at the same time, I wonder if in the future we could come up with a modernized '%' buck that would be a good influence here in the US, especially since Boer goats originate from such a different climate and really a different lifestyle all together. A hardy goat with Boer breed standards as far as conformation/appearance would be interesting.


I was thinking the same about the ears. I saw some up for sale not long ago marketed as commercials, but had gopher ears. Nothing against those, I have a Lamancha doe and she's cute, but I wouldn't bother to breed her to my Boer. I think I'd go with the 50% or higher on both sexes, as that seems fair and easy to breed up to purebred. 
IF I cross, it's Nubian on Boer, it's basically the easiest way to maintain a similar profile while adding in dairy genetics - ears, Roman nose, etc plus Nubians are the more meaty of the dairy breeds.

I have seen some nice commercial bucks, and it's tempting. They are priced very reasonably.

chicken-coop, how does dropping your membership affect you? I know you can still register, but can you still show? We have a membership and I think it's over-priced, especially with multiple children and no "family" membership to speak of, just youth. At $30 for the youth for a year and $60? for us, that's kind of unreasonable. I feel the same way about our ADGA membership though and will probably drop it this upcoming year - I'm not sure yet. One of our local shows made it a rule that youth members have to have the goat in their name on the papers to be able to show in the youth division. I said it was ridiculous to have to do a transfer on papers to a minor who can't legally own livestock just so they could show - I got snapped at for my comment on it that it "wasn't that expensive to do a transfer" and blah blah blah...no it isn't but it doesn't make sense on a goat that is registered to our farm, which is all inclusive of the members of our family? Anyway, that's a bit off topic but you get what I mean - politics.
I haven't shown with ABGA yet but I'm thinking about it, we'll see if it's worth my time and effort.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I have a whole bunch of boer lamanchas. They are actually my favorite dairy cross to a boer. Ears aside, just looking at body the laborers out do every other dairy cross. Crossed to a Nubian you usually still get a smaller framed kid. Now I still keep those offspring because bred back to a boer are some retry kick butt kids but with the lamanchas that first cross is always wonderful. Hang on a bit and I’ll show you examples of what I mean


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

These are my 50/50 Nubians 






















Lamancha

These kids are the same age








Single 















Twins


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

My Lamancha doe (only one I have) is very fine boned, so is my Alpine. I was told my Alpine was running with a Boer buck, we'll see how that turns out but she is not stocky at all.
I have noticed that Nubians are really slow to mature and fill out though. For market purposes they aren't the best for hitting weight by age, so not something I'd do for meat purposes directly, but more for retaining does to cross back in.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

That could be what it is on the Nubians, the black dapple adult was 3-4 in that picture and yes much larger then the tan one but still not really my cup of tea. Granted though my goats are more pasture then total hay so I’m sure they are slower then other people’s but still I look at those lamanchas and just love them. If your lamancha is large enough to have boer kids I say try it (unless you have something lined up) even small framed lamanchas throw fast growing stocky kids. I couldn’t tell you why though. Looking at Nubians I would swear that’s the way to go but the kids are way different.
You will like the alpine cross, again though minus the ears lol I was conned into 2 alpines by my kids and I have to say I was NOT impressed with them at all. But once they had their kids I was amazed watching them grow. If I could chop their heads off and put a boer head on they would be great. If you want I’ll dig up up some pictures


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

I'd love to see what that cross should come out like. My Lamancha doe is big, she's almost as tall as my Nubians, I'm just not sure I could get over the flatter profile face and the ears on Boer kids, lol.

Your black dapple looks more dairy, actually, I wouldn't know she was Boer crossed if she didn't have the short legs.

My Nubian, Millie, is due this month. Here's the sire, said to be 3/4 Boer 1/4 Kiko (sorry I don't own him):









and Millie (plus my Lamancha doe in the back):









I'm not really crazy about the buck. I just wanted Millie and she was too far along to do anything other than let her kid out, I'll breed her back this fall to my Nubian buck. I don't care as much for Millies head, but I like the rest of her. Sorry for pic quality, I was about to let them out to graze (dry lot for safety from coyotes at night) and as soon as I do they have to be all up in my business where I only get nose photos.
Technically, I could retain a doeling from this cross and cross it back on my FB Boer buck for a 50%, but I have a feeling I'm not going to like it enough to keep it. I think the buck lacks bone, and Millie is definitely more refined, so I don't think it's going to pan out to be a nice stocky offspring. I could be wrong there, but I've already considered that I don't want the offspring that much.
I still have 8 does left to kid this year anyway. Boer x Alpine, this one, 2 Nubian x commercial Boer, FB Boer x commercial show doe, and then 3 PB Nubians so I have to be picky, lol.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well dang it I don't have anything past a day old on the one I was super impressed with but this was him








He was 71# at 90 days. These are the 3 from this year, I'm still fairly impressed but not as much as when I bred them to the other buck but these kids are sale yard bound (pet for the white one) so just growing fast is good for me!





















they are 15 days in the picture.
I like your lady's head, way nicer then the dish faced ones I have but I'm a boer person so that just always throws me for a loop lol yours very well might still have nice looking kids out of the buck even if your not overly impressed with them, they will for sure have the milk to get them to grow well!


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

Yeah that's my thought, if I don't like how they turn out they can always go meat market. 
Millie just isn't quite as roman nosed as I'd like for a Nubian, but I got her for a milk goat anyway. My alpine has a big head but a pretty flat profiled face, not dishy. 

Those are some pretty thick kids. I bred really late this year so most of mine are due in June (got a new buck and he was young and didn't figure things out until late, lol), but that's when we have the best grass, just not the best market prices coming into the fall. I expect they've dropped down already now that Easter is over with, but there should be some come back around September/October. Not spring prices, but decent ones. I'm kind of glad I'm not kidding out all at once so far this spring, the rain has sucked and the grass is pretty sad so far. I was already having to mow at this time last year, this year, there's not much to mow yet.


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

What was it you said about me maybe liking that cross? Lol

Nubian doe kidded, they look like Nubians with their long spindly legs. One is more "Boer" type colored, looks like the father, one looks like the mother, and one looks like a "where did all these spots come from?!"


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol oh give them a little time lol but no I understand what your saying, sometimes I look at kids and just can’t come up with words lol but a huge congrats on healthy kids!!!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

On the part about not being a member - yes you can still show as long as your goats are registered. 
As for doing a JABGA membership and $30 adult, I absolutely do not like that at all. My oldest 2 kids used to be JABGA members when we had to switch from IBGA years ago. But when they started this adult sponsor/$30 stuff, I said nope, can't do it! Because my youngest was starting to show breeding stock as well. That's $120 in fees before ever registering a goat! We usually register about a handful a year, so not worth all the membership fees since my kids are not active in the JABGA.

Goats here are supposed to be registered in the kids names, but nobody checks. However, what we ended up doing is getting 1 adult membership that has all of our names on it. 
It has the farm name my kids came up with, then below it, my name, and my 3 kids names, then address below it. 
I was told that should work, so anyone having issues talk to your 4-H leaders or fair board. I should think if it's registered to 'your' family and not some other farm + your child, then it should be acceptable.

I've heard Lamancha/Boer X make great market wethers. I've seen some really nice does a few years or so ago that a family who raise market wethers were showing in % breeding classes at our fair. The nice thing is a lot of county fair judges won't knock them down for the ears, but... there are many judges who will, so it's all a gamble.

We've had Nubian/Boer X and done very well with them. In fact, one family we have had over the years started with a Nubian/Boer doe. She was a big doe, put out good, fast growing kids.










This was her and our first doe kids (7 months old!). I believe she was around 160lbs 









We bred her daughter to kid at 13 months, and she had twins, we still have one of them, she has been our best producer. She's kidded 5x, 4 sets of twins - nothing under 10lbs, and this year she had triplets. She is normally right about 200lbs. 









Unfortunately, we did lose her best doe kid from a couple of years ago  She was a very
consistent 88% doe at the county fair shows, up against some very nice, big classes! and did well in her only ABGA show. Heartbreaking that we lost her.









Her triplets were born 1/24, and at 10 weeks old they were: 48.0lbs (doe), 54.4lbs (doe), and 
59.6lbs (buck) - all dam raised.

We have a Purebred 99.9% doe that goes back to Nubian bloodlines. She's not a large doe, but she's a nice doe. She's 1.5yrs and probably around 165lbs. Her kids right at 4wks was 21.2 & 19.8lbs, both does. I really...really like her girls.

So I am partial to Nubian/Boer crosses. We another one years ago that gave nice twins who had good growth rates.

I definitely think the buck you cross your dairy or dairy Boer X does with makes a difference on if they are going to grow well. I think that's why we have such good growth with Wysteria's kids, her sire came from a very solid family.


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## Wintercreek (Jul 22, 2018)

Hi I'm new to the registrations of goats.
I understand some of what they are doing with percentages. 
My question would be. I have a fullblood Buck that would only be able to be registered 50% his Sire is abga fullblood.but because his Dam is fullblood registered thru IBGA and ABGA refuses to recognize her.


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

Right, and bucks will be eligible after August 15 with ABGA as 50% - prior to that they didn't allow 50% bucks to be registered.

ABGA closed their books awhile back, that's why they won't recognize your IBGA doe as a Boer, but will recognize her as unregistered. From what I understand, the IBGA is no longer a registry as of 2012.


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## Wintercreek (Jul 22, 2018)

So I have a fullblood Buck who I will never be able to sell potentially awesome bucks out of and or breed to any % does because he will bring % down paper wise.. I see the price difference between a fullblood animal and % as well. No one wants a % buck. No matter how good looking he is. Not a good way to start into ABGA when they wont even work with you. I bought these goats thinking they were able to be registered for me because they were already registered. If it says reg fullblood on papers it does not change them because they were not one registry over another. They dont turn into poodles QUOTE="ISmellLikeGoats, post: 2138597, member: 33057"]Right, and bucks will be eligible after August 15 with ABGA as 50% - prior to that they didn't allow 50% bucks to be registered.

ABGA closed their books awhile back, that's why they won't recognize your IBGA doe as a Boer, but will recognize her as unregistered. From what I understand, the IBGA is no longer a registry as of 2012.[/QUOTE]


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It was very unfair for ABGA to do this.
They did give some warning time for those who had goats to hurry and register there goats before IBGA goes out. 
Now, all those FB goats are booted to th bottom. It really irks me, that they could do this.


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## ISmellLikeGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

Yeah, basically. Sell percentage bucklings as FFA/4H show prospects if they are show legal. They are letting you register 25% does along with the 50% bucks now. Some people who raise strictly commercial stock are still interested in nice good bucks, percentage or not.

You're right though, I personally wouldn't buy a percentage buck, unless I planned on wethering it for my kids to show as a market wether, just like you'd do before this new 50% stuff with any unregisterable bucklings - send them off for meat or FFA/4H market wethers.

ABGA closing their books was before I got into meat goats, but it appears it was several years ago. From what I gathered on the IBGA when they closed they sent their registrations over to the ABGA for a time period, and the ABGA closed it's books.

That said, it's unfair to take it out on the ABGA for what they will or won't accept for registration, it appears they closed their books quite awhile ago, though I'm not sure. The person you bought from, however, if they knew you wanted 100% registerable with the ABGA and that's what they sold you...well that's shady. I sell percentage and registered grade (dairy) and I definitely market them as that because it's what they are.

Sorry to say it'll have to be a lesson chalked up to experience - never buy registered livestock without papers in hand or application in hand showing what they'll be registered as. You can keep him and breed him to 100% ABGA does and produce high percentage (edited, because I can't math today)kids, or start over with a fullblood buck.

Here's a thread I found on the whole debacle with IBGA/ABGA: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/ibga-abga-or-usbga.131252/page-2

Page 2 has the letter and when they closed IBGA registration.

Now, on that note, do I think it's fair? No not really. I think a lot about ABGA isn't particularly fair or smart (like their membership fees, good lord!) but it is what it is and until USBGA becomes more "reputable" in that sense or provides more shows, ABGA has no reason to change any of it.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree, it's extremely unfair that ABGA put a time limit on when you could register the IBGA goats. If they are going to accept them, then always accept them! Really frustrating. I had heard a rumor early in the year that they were going to open it so IBGA goats could still be registered, but haven't heard anything more about that. You might contact them to see if there is any truth to it.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I had some nice old type Nubians that crossed really well with my fullbred Boer buck, all these many years ago. They were so thick, meaty and grew like magic. They did great in the pointed shows, too. No more Boers, but still have the Nubians. Some of them are pretty spleeny, and I couldn't see breeding them to a Boer buck, but others are the nice, dual purpose animal Nubians used to be.

I also have Lamanchas. My late herd queen was a tank, and would have been a good Boer cross. I have 2 right now that could do it and produce nice 50% Boer kids. In fact, each one of these 2 sisters have a Lamancha daughter that I sold to a Boer herd for milk production, but who have been bred to the Boer bucks. The kids are huge and meaty. I also have other Manchas that are too slight to even think of holding a Boer buck during breeding, never mind carrying the Boer x kids!


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