# Follow Up on "Advice on Pregnant Doe"



## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

I posted on one of my pregnant does last week, Edna; 
original post link: http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f197/advice-pregnant-doe-173632/
When i went out this morning, she was acting strangely such as head tilted back looking up at the ceiling and not being able to walk very well. After talking with a vet that is an hour away, I took her in and she has toxemia. I had been giving her "Magic"--molasses, corn oil, and corn syrup because of her history of multiples and her enormous size over the past two weeks: She is not overweight but she is 191 lbs. and all baby! She is just a large doe in general.
Anyway, her treatment was lute, dex..., and 60 cc of glycol. Does anyone have any advice for me from this point on? She still looks absolutely miserable and I want to help her. I have never dealt with this before. She is about two-three weeks from being due.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Is she getting calcium? Milk for quads... minerals for new babies' bones... I'd be giving her tums, dairy parlor, cmpk or something.

Are you still isolating her? With ketosis/toxemia, a lot of time the cause is the babies getting so big, there's not much room left for the rumen. They need to eat, basically, all day because there's no room to store food between meals. Do you have ketosis test strips?

What's she eating besides grain? How often are you giving magic?


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

She is being fed alfalfa hay, grain, and corn as well as having access to browse. Our Kidding pen is in a 1 acre wooded area. There just is not access to the pasture. She is known for have three to four kids a kidding. I put her in a pen only at feeding time because she is not able to eat her full ration all at once and everyone will eat her food as well as theirs. When the rest go out, I let her out in her area and she has access to her pen and the the whole kidding area. She is also not alone. The only reason I put her up is because she started having a hard time getting around the pasture. 
I have not heard of dairy parlor nor cmpk, I will have to research those, however, she does have free choice goat minerals, a protein pail, and alfalfa. Does she need more than that? I was giving her the magic once a day but now twice, and molasses in her water. 
The vet checked her with keto strips. I will have to get some of my own, but she has been tested.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Ketosis test strips are available at pharmacies in the diabetes supply areas. They're GREAT for monitoring an at-risk goat to detect ketosis/toxemia, or monitoring if ketosis/toxemia remedies are working. Just catch the doe urinating, stick the strip under her, and you know where she's at. Soo much better than drench and guess, and worry and worry.

I brought up calcium because the pics in the other post look like maybe she's having muscle tone problems. Calcium supports muscles. I had a doe who births easily, have a difficult birth - she was on excellent browse but probably calcium deficient. Alfalfa can be calcium-rich, but it wouldn't hurt to give her some tums or cmpk at a low dose, and might help her with kidding. 

If she's definitely toxemic, keeping her in a "creep-feed" type arrangement might help. It's like diabetes - frequent small meals instead of two big meals a day helps keep blood sugar more consistent. I'm not suggesting a big change in how much/what she eats, just keeping it in front of her longer and more often. But if that means confining her, you'll want to take her on walks; exercise is important for does with high-risk pregnancies.

If you don't have nutri-drench (glycol), I'd pick some up. If she goes down, it can buy you time to fix her. It's not my first choice of supplement, but I have two goats that are probably only alive because I had that handy.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

caprinelivin said:


> Anyway, her treatment was lute, dex..., and 60 cc of glycol. Does anyone have any advice for me from this point on? She still looks absolutely miserable and I want to help her. I have never dealt with this before. She is about two-three weeks from being due.


If I'm reading this right, your vet gave meds to induce labor, and she's too far out for the kids to be viable


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> If I'm reading this right, your vet gave meds to induce labor, and she's too far out for the kids to be viable


Yep. She will be kidding soon. Get ready. I hope the kids are.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley:
As you read in my other post, this doe was not in the best shape when we got her. She has large births and we held off breeding her until now, and still against my better judgement, but that is another story. I have tums on hand, can I still give these to her? How many? How often? I also have calcium supplement I could bolus if that would be better?
She was already in a creep feeding type of situation because she could not eat much at a time (she is really big) and everything was free choice--alfalfa, protein lick, minerals, etc. I put out a full days ration of feed and kept an eye on what she was eating and she had a healthy appetite just not a lot at one time. She was not alone but the others could not get to her food. 
I do not have nutriDrench but she is on the glycol from the vet, and molasses and probiotic water, and magic. She does not want to get up and I am here by myself and not very big myself. i can get her on her feet but I can not get her to walk without help and that is not until later towards evening, any suggestions?
And thank you for all of your help and information


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> If I'm reading this right, your vet gave meds to induce labor, and she's too far out for the kids to be viable


Yes, Wild Heart Ranch, he said we could save her or the kids but not both unless the kids were developed enough to survive. Believe me when I say it this is not easy for me 
http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Usually when they're that close to their due date you can try the standard treatment first, and only induce as a last resort. Not much you can do now but wait.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Usually when they're that close to their due date you can try the standard treatment first, and only induce as a last resort. Not much you can do now but wait.


I wish I had the time to have consulted you guys before the treatment but they were very busy and he was in a hurry and needed an answer right away. I have used this office before and do like them but I had never seen this vet in particular and the others were in an emergency surgery. He literally said we could not save both the kids and mom. I remembered someone saying that when dex was given it would help develop/strengthen immature or weak lungs in the kids? 
She has milk, a lot! I also have colostrum from last year, and milk as well. I keep checking on her and getting her up but I cannot walk her by myself so when my husband gets home he helps to walk her. She is nibbling on alfalfa but nothing else, but she did get up since the first time I went out this morning and drink a gallon of water! and took a long pee 
I am just so sorry this is happening...


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

You are not alone. all of us here will help with support and comfort. You had to make s tough decision but now its just s matter of waiting to see what happens. Keep in touch on here and we will wait with you. Be prepared that the kid(s) will be born alive but may not make it after birth. Get them dry and keep them warm. Sometimes teaspoon of whiskey in honey can jump start s weak kid. Get colostrum into them quickly with syringe or feeding tube. Other wise just leave them and they will pass quickly.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Dex will help a little but they still have to be mostly developed, it just gives them a boost. Hope all goes well for you.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

I would give her a fast-acting source of calcium to help with muscle tone. I'm not familiar with bolused calcium, that might be a good idea with tums, but I would do a tums right away. One of the ~1200mg ones, or two of the regular tums. The picture of her back end makes me think she needs calcium before delivery, so I'd do that asap.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

dreamacresfarm2 said:


> You are not alone. all of us here will help with support and comfort. You had to make s tough decision but now its just s matter of waiting to see what happens. Keep in touch on here and we will wait with you. Be prepared that the kid(s) will be born alive but may not make it after birth. Get them dry and keep them warm. Sometimes teaspoon of whiskey in honey can jump start s weak kid. Get colostrum into them quickly with syringe or feeding tube. Other wise just leave them and they will pass quickly.


Thank you so much, I really appreciate it  I believe Edna will be ok but I am very anxious about the kids. I have had difficulties with kids in the past such as aspiration and they were able to pull through it but this is a different ball game. Last year we had 62 kids on the ground and more than half were born in one month: I had a crash course in kidding!
Anyway, I do not have whiskey but I do have brandy, will that work? And how much of each? And I do not have feeding tubes.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> I would give her a fast-acting source of calcium to help with muscle tone. I'm not familiar with bolused calcium, that might be a good idea with tums, but I would do a tums right away. One of the ~1200mg ones, or two of the regular tums. The picture of her back end makes me think she needs calcium before delivery, so I'd do that asap.


Thank you, I can handle that! She has always had a slightly rounded back end but it is not as profound as when we first got her.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> I do not have nutriDrench but she is on the glycol from the vet, and molasses and probiotic water, and magic. She does not want to get up and I am here by myself and not very big myself. i can get her on her feet but I can not get her to walk without help and that is not until later towards evening, any suggestions?


 The glycol should be fine instead of nutridrench.

I think you said elsewhere that she's just picking at her alfalfa. She needs calories (and I know you're giving them in the drenches). If she were mine, I would try hand-feeding her grain (some of mine will eat out of my hand when they won't eat from the feeder). Definitely keep up the oral drenches until she's out of the woods.

Is there any way you can pick up ketosis test strips? The color change tells you if it's bad, moderate, or all better. With what you're doing, it should be moderate. If it's "bad," (love my technical terminology?) I would think about increasing frequency of magic/molasses.

Do you have electrolytes? The rapid breathing plus sort of saggy vulva... I'd add electrolytes to the drench.

If she were mine, she'd be getting a b-complex injection daily until she's eating normally again. Keep up the probiotics; not eating is a "diet change" so keep supporting that rumen until she's taking care of it herself.

And...it's just a hunch, but I'd give a dose of milk of magnesia (a few hours apart from the calcium) because she needs both calcium & magnesium to support muscles for pushing the babies out.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> Thank you, I can handle that! She has always had a slightly rounded back end but it is not as profound as when we first got her.


 The picture in your other post..the "birthing bits" look way too saggy for her having several weeks of gestation left. That's why I'm thinking calcium, magnesium, electrolytes. The toxemia means she has little energy to spare for birthing, poor muscle tone on top of it will double the effort.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

I just went out to give Edna some more Magic and get her on her feet. She is acting better--yay! She doesn't have her head thrown back and is a little more alert to my presence. She is still groaning and seems to be grunting here and there. She would not take anything I tried to feed her this morning but just now started munching down on the alfalfa I laid in front of her so that is an improvement. I am on my way out now to give her some Tums.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> The picture in your other post..the "birthing bits" look way too saggy for her having several weeks of gestation left. That's why I'm thinking calcium, magnesium, electrolytes. The toxemia means she has little energy to spare for birthing, poor muscle tone on top of it will double the effort.


Ok, I am on my way out now to give her the calcium. I have extra strength Smoothies tums 750. If I give her 2 that will deliver 1200 mg calcium. I also have Bovine Blue electrolytes I got from the vet a while back that I can add to her water. I have not put any in because she seems to be drinking well. And her lady parts are also very swollen and she has been stringing here and there, and she has a good size milk bag but it is not real tight.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> I just went out to give Edna some more Magic and get her on her feet. She is acting better--yay!


Yay!!!! Small progress now, more progress later.

If you put the electrolytes in the water, make SURE it doesn't make her go off water. Some goats are extra picky about water.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> The glycol should be fine instead of nutridrench.
> 
> I think you said elsewhere that she's just picking at her alfalfa. She needs calories (and I know you're giving them in the drenches). If she were mine, I would try hand-feeding her grain (some of mine will eat out of my hand when they won't eat from the feeder). Definitely keep up the oral drenches until she's out of the woods.
> I have tried feeding her by hand. At first that is how I could get her to eat and I do still offer it that way every time I go out and she does nibble at it. I have tried corn, corn with molasses, corn with feed, corn with calf Manna, and just Calf Manna. She pushes it around like she is looking for something specific. A friend of mine is going to help me gather a variety of leaves and such to feed her to stimulate her appetite.
> ...


The electrolytes smell coconutty and when i used it before they really seemed to like it.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

The brandy will work but like quarter of teaspoon with spoonful of honey or molasses


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

Thank you, Cheri. I will make some of that up! I am preparing a specialized kidding kit and that will come in handy


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

I stupidly (inexperienced) bought a fat bred doe and a thin bred doe for my first goats. They both developed ketosis.

When the fat one gave birth, she went off feed, but I'd saved the skinny one pretty quick and still had the ketone strips. More ketosis, bad with the fat one. I took the fat one into the feedroom and let her "shop." I got food into her, but also threw her rumen for a curve.

You can let her shop what you bring, but don't let her pig out on something unfamiliar (I did, put my girl into a new crisis). Mine also did the "no, that's not what I need" thing. That's how we ended up shopping the feedroom. When she found what she wanted, she'd eat it. Took a week before I thought she was going to live.

Vitamin B injections will likely help. I assume she's current on BoSe or doesn't need it?

Ketones through the roof - I'm _guessing_ she needs magic more than 3x day. Test strips will tell you how you're doing (and introduce the new frustration that a goat who pees all the time will only do it when you're not there or put the strips away). They're so cheap for the lifesaving info they give.

Blackstrap molasses is just more concentrated? Apparently, it's more bitter tasting, so I'd try it before buying a big jug. Goaties like their sweets. I

I use Milk of Magnesia for several different symptoms, I've never had diarrhea per se or soft poops that were out of character for the symptom that prompted the MoM in the first place. Don't go over a human dose, once should give a boost; it "might" help flush ketone toxins? This article references "ketone-induced magnesium deficiency":
http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/goats/Resources/GoatArticles/GoatFeeding/GoatNutritionalDiseases1.pdf


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

"I will have to get this but will this cause diarreah? She had some diarreah yesterday after the shots but today she has hardley gone and it is slimy and dark."

Her poop is slimy? Like mucus? Usually, as I understand it, GI mucus is a response to GI irritation. I don't remember poop problems when I dealt with ketosis/toxemia. How dark? Like black dark, or just a little dark? Any bubbles? 

Did you or the vet take a temp?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You are feeding her oil and most of what you're giving her kills all the good fauna in her rumen. Both of those things will cause diarrhea.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

goathiker - dark diarrhea?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If it looks a lot like molasses, yes. Simple sugar is very hard to digest. With rumen impairment much of that may be going straight through. If it is black and tar-like then she may be getting an ulcer from all this. Many does also get soft stools right before kidding from hormones so, you combine the hormone shot, the steroid shot, all the foreign liquids, and not a lot of fiber, I would expect some diarrhea when she started to eat again. With all the insult to her digestive tract she will probably shed some mucus coat as well. 

The main thing now is to watch closely. Keep an eye on her temp, stools, appearance, and progress. She should get better slowly, not regress. 

When she does kid don't milk her out empty either. Take 1/3 a few times a day instead. Milking her out completely runs a real risk of throwing her into milk fever at point.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

Ok, so Edna kidded and on her own...wow! She had four, and between the three hours I was asleep, go figure! One was dead and the other three are weak, one of them more than the other two, and even though I left lamps on, they are cold. I am warming them up and two are responding well the other is not warming up. I tried the Brandy and honey but I am apprehensive to try to much. I am afraid of a sedative effect?
Edna is not able to stand to feed them or let me milk her. As soon as I try she falls out and I am alone. I do not have anyone to help her stand. I do have colostrum and I did give them some but I so want her to be able to care for them if they are gonna make it, but I definitely will.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> "I will have to get this but will this cause diarreah? She had some diarreah yesterday after the shots but today she has hardley gone and it is slimy and dark."
> 
> Her poop is slimy? Like mucus? Usually, as I understand it, GI mucus is a response to GI irritation. I don't remember poop problems when I dealt with ketosis/toxemia. How dark? Like black dark, or just a little dark? Any bubbles?
> 
> Did you or the vet take a temp?


Her temp was 102.6. Her poop now is coated sort of formed, clumpy pellets that are just dark but not black, and no bubbles. Not frequent either.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

goathiker said:


> You are feeding her oil and most of what you're giving her kills all the good fauna in her rumen. Both of those things will cause diarrhea.


Should I not use the oil? I am most definitely open to suggestions. I am giving her probios to help and now vitamin b complex, and soon the MOM? The diarrhea was when we got home from the vet and not since and it was a brown color. What she is doing now is more of a lumpy form coated in mucous and not frequent.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The baby must be warmed before it can digest. If it's temp isn't at least 100 degrees the milk will sit in it's stomach and make it sicker as it spoils. Give each of them 1/4 cc vitamin B complex by mouth, use your injectible kind. It will help wake them up and help them stabilize their temps. You can warm the cold one up with a hair drier on low or a very warm water bath with the kid's body in a plastic bag. 
They need twice their weight in pounds in ounces of colostrum in the first 12 hours. If they weigh 4 lbs. they need 8 ounces of colostrum in many small feedings. 

I would not give this doe a laxative. If she needs magnesium, use tablets instead. Has she passed the placenta?


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

What a rollercoaster you're riding, and sorry I can't be there to hold Edna up. Can you slide a milk crate (with a towel over top to soften the edges) underneath her, to support her, once you hoist her to her feet?


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

This is probably too late to help, but I stick babies in my jacket to warm them up "a little" or while carrying them to heat.

Rub them briskly, mom's licking stimulates them and rubbing helps.

Temp and colostrum critical now. A little strong coffee can give a jolt, honey or molasses or glycol gives them some energy to keep up the fight while you get colostrum ready and into them.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Edna made it through birth, don't worry about magnesium right now, worry about energy and kids. Warm water with molasses is always good for the mom who just delivered. Is there any way you can "winch" Edna to her feet so you can slide something under to support her?


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

goathiker said:


> The baby must be warmed before it can digest. If it's temp isn't at least 100 degrees the milk will sit in it's stomach and make it sicker as it spoils. Give each of them 1/4 cc vitamin B complex by mouth, use your injectible kind. It will help wake them up and help them stabilize their temps. You can warm the cold one up with a hair drier on low or a very warm water bath with the kid's body in a plastic bag.
> They need twice their weight in pounds in ounces of colostrum in the first 12 hours. If they weigh 4 lbs. they need 8 ounces of colostrum in many small feedings.
> 
> I would not give this doe a laxative. If she needs magnesium, use tablets instead. Has she passed the placenta?


She has passed most of her placenta and she is trying to pass the rest. She received her BoSe, CDT, and dewormer three weeks ago.
I brought the one baby in and have been placing warm blankets from the dryer on it and it has woke up now and is trying to stand! It is finding the nipple a little awkward and wants to suck my fingers instead. I will give them the b complex. Should I give them BoSe as well since they are weak? They are a bit small but she had about two weeks left.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

A tiny bit of Bo.Se wouldn't hurt at all. About 3/4 of what you would normally give. This can be given orally as well since the pores in their gut are still open until they are 12 hours old. I always give an extra vit E gelcap as well by squeezing the oil into their mouths.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

Goat_in_Himmel said:


> What a rollercoaster you're riding, and sorry I can't be there to hold Edna up. Can you slide a milk crate (with a towel over top to soften the edges) underneath her, to support her, once you hoist her to her feet?


I wish you were here, too  I was trying to devise something. I have a friend up the road from me that is going to come over in a while and help me out. I have neglected to mention that she has cluster teats as if things were not difficult enough!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good advice given....giving babies Bo Se is fine..it might help wake them up...to get a cold baby warm I like to make a tent from a blanket or large towel on my lap and warm the air with a blow dryer...not blowing on baby..but the air...kids tend to respond quickly....lots of brisk rubbing...

Mom could use some B complex as well...warm molasses water ..is she alert on her feet yet?


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> I brought the one baby in and have been placing warm blankets from the dryer on it and it has woke up now and is trying to stand!


Yay!!!!


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

goathiker said:


> A tiny bit of Bo.Se wouldn't hurt at all. About 3/4 of what you would normally give. This can be given orally as well since the pores in their gut are still open until they are 12 hours old. I always give an extra vit E gelcap as well by squeezing the oil into their mouths.


For kids we normally give .5cc BoSe IM but if I can give it by mouth that would be great. I hate sticking them and they are so small...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

By mouth is the same for 12 hours after birth. It goes through the open gut pores directly into the blood.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

happybleats said:


> Good advice given....giving babies Bo Se is fine..it might help wake them up...to get a cold baby warm I like to make a tent from a blanket or large towel on my lap and warm the air with a blow dryer...not blowing on baby..but the air...kids tend to respond quickly....lots of brisk rubbing...
> 
> Mom could use some B complex as well...warm molasses water ..is she alert on her feet yet?


She is alert and will get up briefly but cannot stand for long. Molasses has been given and her treatment of glycol she nibbled on some alfalfa and drank a good bit of water but no feed or corn.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

if the kids can't suck then use syringe and slowly dribbles colostrum in the back corner of their mouth - make sure they are swallowing. - can also dip nipple in honey to stimulate sucking - they need to be warm (100 degrees F) and get colostrum in them.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> She is alert and will get up briefly but cannot stand for long. Molasses has been given and her treatment of glycol she nibbled on some alfalfa and drank a good bit of water but no feed or corn.


You dropped the corn oil and fructose from the "magic"? Are you substituting molasses for them, or just giving less total volume?

Are any of the kids able to nurse?


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

The kids are not standing yet but are trying, and they are sucking but very weakly. She is interested in them and will stand for a couple of minutes but when I put them up to her they are not really sucking and definitely not latching. I have been giving them small amounts of colostrum that I had from last season because I am hoping they will take from her but it is looking like i am going to have three bottle babies...so far. 
I did not drop the corn oil and corn syrup and i added electrolytes to her water.
I just gave everyone b complex and the babes BoSe
I am getting ready to go to town for supplies and leaving my daughter with them. Can anyone think of anything I should get that will help?
Oh yeah, Edna took some corn and calf manna!


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Tough situation but you're doing GREAT! Weak kids don't suckle well, but mine always do once they get some energy going. So glad mom is eating a bit! B-complex should help everyone feel a bit better. And I'm glad you've got a helper now!


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

First and foremost, I would like to thank you all for your help, support, and advice. I know we are not out of the woods yet but I do not think for a moment things would have turned out this well thus far without you all. I am so glad to have found TGS. 
Next, and update on Edna and the kids. Edna is still the same; nibbling here and there, she will get up and stand for a few minutes on her own and pee or change positions, however she has developed a rattle but it sounds more throaty then lungs? and she has not fully passed her placenta. I tried to gently pull and it was not giving way so I stopped. If she has not passed it by morning I will give her some oxytocin (as per the vet unless there is better advice?) and Penn G.
The kids are still not up moving around like they probably should be and are very wobbly legged. I gave them the BoSe earlier and that usually takes care of that so I am not sure about how to handle that if at all. Perhaps it is because they are a little early?
That friend of mine came over and brought cedar leaves--needles-- and was going to bring something else--I cannot think of what it was at the moment--but she was not sure if it was toxic so did not bring it. She did bring nettle though and I was wondering if and how to give to Edna. Normally I would feed fresh leaves but this is dehydrated and powdery: I was thinking I could drench it.
Also, to get your opinions, I thought that it might be best for Edna's health to bottle feed her babies. My thoughts are that milk production for three bucks especially might put continuing stress on her exacerbating her condition? Any thoughts? I thought about leaving them with her though at least for the time being.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

My girl went heartbroken that she had to let one of her kids go. Go ahead and laugh at me if you want, but I believe that that was the beginning of a downward spiral. Nowadays, she comes up and hugs me and gives me really deep looks like "how can I thank you?" I saved the kid that she let go, and kept them together, and now she loves that abandoned kid more than the ones she thought were worth feeding. Like I said, go ahead and laugh if you want.

Taking the kids away means you have to manage her udder. But it will definitely reduce the caloric drain (and minerals and all that). I think her opinion counts. Some goats are happy to offload the job, and some want to be mom. I truly believe that a fighting spirit overcomes more than good medicine.

I think - without meeting Edna or any direct knowledge - that Edna has overproduced. Just pictures and whatnot, I think too much has been asked of her physically over her productive life. If she'll let you raise the kids happily, that will be best for her. But if she wants to raise her kids, it can give her the fighting spirit. You can supplement kids while letting mom raise them. My girl couldn't feed her abandoned kid at all, but she could love her and bond with her and raise her (short of feeding).

Give her that magnesium if you feel it will help. And a bit more calcium. I think overproducing goats give up a lot of the minerals and vitamins they need, and I seem to be in the minority here on thinking magnesium helps, but I personally think it does. Something like Replamin would probably be better, or cmpk, but what have you got?

Dried nettles - I thought nettles needed to be cooked? High protein, but maybe mix with boiling water before drenching so the "sting" is cooked out?

I'd give her some vitamin C, but be prepared to give her serious medicine for a rattle. If she doesn't pass the afterbirth, she needs help. Perhaps gross, but I sniff new mothers' back ends for a week or more, smelling for infection. Take temps, even if she passes the afterbirth; the longer it's in there, the higher the risk. Temps are low-intrusion checks.

Don't pull the afterbirth anymore. If it hangs, tie it up, but make her body pass it, or get a vet's help if oxytocin doesn't help her.

Yep, the kids are gonna be weak. Did you give them vitamin B? If not, please do. It's sort of a fix-all. It's not up to Edna to feed them enough - she's got her own things going on. It's up to you to get the food into them, and work that around Edna or take her out of the loop. Keep them _warm_ and fed. If they aren't eating enough, they can't stay warm. They're preemies, and they need very frequent feeding and still might not make it.

With all that she's been through, a rattle, and not passing the placenta - I would be quick to give antibiotics, even though I am real slow to jump to antibiotics. Do you have some available? Definitely give more probiotics if you give antibiotics. But if the rattle persists or any other infection signs present, get her on antibiotics.

Did you learn a lot going through this? It's HARD. But you survived your trial by fire now. You've done a great job. It might or might not have a happy ending, but you'll be a better goat mom regardless.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

^^ What she said. I have a doe who's an excellent mom. Two years I ago I sold her kids on the bottle because I wanted milk, and she held a grudge until she kidded the following year (and did NOT want to let me near those ones!) This year she had a breech stillborn, two hours of pulling to get it out. One of my other does had twins the day before and wasn't very attentive so I grafted the doeling onto the other, and I'm convinced that helped her pull through.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The only thing I would disagree with is that nettles picked at full boom, when they are at their strongest, have no sting....BUT nobody said what kind of nettles. There are some that would be really wrong for this doe at this point.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

Good Morning All! The babies are still alive thus far but one will be doing great and then in an hour not so much and back and forth...a roller coaster indeed! And Edna has passed her placenta, yay! 
My daughter was 3 months premature and I learned that even though they are born, they act as if they are still in the womb, not real active and so on, and I notice that with these. I feed them and they are active for just a few minutes and I have to wake them to feed them. When I do feed them they do better sucking on my finger as I slowly push the milk with a syringe in the corner of their mouth, so that is what I do. 
I can tell that feeding them is different than the typical bottle babies so any advice would be helpful in that area or should I open another post?
Right now they are getting about an ounce with 1/8 tsp. honey and probiotics. They got their colostrum but I heard that they are not able to utilize it when they are preemies like a full term? They got it anyway! And I am feeding them that about every two hours.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

They were close enough I would think the colostrum would have been somewhat effective. Feeding every 2 hours (even @ night) is very good right now they need checked to make sure they are staying warm enough to digest their milk too. Warm and fed is what they need right now. It sounds like you are doing great with feeding them. Only time will tell how they will do in the long run. Take care of yourself and don't get over tired. Naps are great.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Yay! Did she pass it on her own, or did she need oxytocin? Just curious.

How much do the kids weigh? It sounds like you're feeding 12 oz./day each? Are they staying warm on their own?

If the kids have good suckle reflex, they ought to be able to nurse from a bottle or teat. Have you tried that? If they're refusing the bottle, what kind of teat are you using?

Did you give them b-complex? 

How's Edna's udder? Are you milking her?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You should get pritchard nipples. They are the red nipple on the yellow screw cap. Cut off the tip enough to see a hole. The milk practically pours out of it. Extremely good for weak kids. They fit well on 20 ounce Pepsi bottles.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

dreamacresfarm2 said:


> They were close enough I would think the colostrum would have been somewhat effective. Feeding every 2 hours (even @ night) is very good right now they need checked to make sure they are staying warm enough to digest their milk too. Warm and fed is what they need right now. It sounds like you are doing great with feeding them. Only time will tell how they will do in the long run. Take care of yourself and don't get over tired. Naps are great.


Thank you so much for your encouragement. I am not sure if what I am doing is enough because two of them are down and have not responded to me in a couple of hours now. They are warm and seem content but are very lethargic :blue: Do you (or anybody) know if I should be continuing B complex? I gave it to them all yesterday and it helped.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> Yay! Did she pass it on her own, or did she need oxytocin? Just curious.
> 
> How much do the kids weigh? It sounds like you're feeding 12 oz./day each? Are they staying warm on their own?
> They are not staying warm on their own. I had them under two heat lamps in an insulated barn in a small wire kennel mostly covered and kept checking on them but this morning they were cooler than I wanted so I brought them in and they are in a tote with a heat blanket.
> ...


Edna seems to be doing ok so far. She is very difficult to milk because she wont stand for long and does not want to be milked, and she has cluster teats. And responding to your earlier comment, I agree that she has been pushed to her outer limits in breeding before we got her. She has not been bred since we have had her (working on 2 years now) and I wanted to retire her but my husband wanted to try since she had improved so much. Not that I am blaming him but pregnancy in general takes so much out of a females body and I think she should live out the rest of her days on sunny lush pasture in peace! Even though we breed commercial and show stock, I care more about health than # of kids.

Back to topic, shouldn't she just dry up if no demand is being placed on her? Of course I would keep an eye on her and if she gets too tight and so forth I would milk some off?


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Almost impossible to overdose B since it's water soluble.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> Thank you so much for your encouragement. I am not sure if what I am doing is enough because two of them are down and have not responded to me in a couple of hours now. They are warm and seem content but are very lethargic Do you (or anybody) know if I should be continuing B complex? I gave it to them all yesterday and it helped.


I would continue the B complex...with the honey only wipe a tiny bit on their tongue or gums to boost them..

try letting themnurse from a bottle...pritcherd nipple is best as mentioned..

to know how much milk they need ..weigh them and multiply that by 16 to get their weight in oz...then multiply that by 10% to see how much milk they need PER DAY...Then divide that into four bottles...if they seem too weak waiting for the next meal..divide a little more...giving enough is just as important as not giving too much milk...so once they have eaten..feel their tummies..you want them to be flat bt firm..not sunken in or pooching out...
with tiny tots ..they dont always follow the rules of thumb so tweak as you see the need...

On edna...yes if you are not going to milk her or the kids wont nurse,, dry her up...

best wishes


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Make sure the kids are warm - the blanket should help, but make sure of it. Rub them briskly, too when you handle them. Like when your hands get cold; rub rub rub.

I give nutridrench if a kid is eating enough but goes weak; it's primarily propylene glycol and molasses. 

I don't know how well stocked you are, but a dextrose lactated ringers or abdominal glucolse injection might help if you have it. I doubt most of us have those!

Are they stronger after eating and weaker in between? If so, increase feed amount. Cathy gives great advice, but I disagree with only 4 feedings/day for weak little ones. They don't have reserves for the times in between.

I'd try giving a bit of electrolytes. 

If you have another Prichard teat, cut the hole smaller. If not, when you get them back on the bottle, tip the bottle down to cut flow so they don't choke on it. Insert in mouth, hold normal, tip down. Tip up, tip down. The flow is too fast for them if they cough. Drizzling from a syringe is fine if you have big syringes, but if it makes you feed less, go to the bottle.

B complex every day is a good idea for now.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

I'm really surprised Edna had 2 years off. I've only seen that look (the pooched Lady bits in late pregnancy) in a goat who bred back too soon after delivering big kids. She was on pasture, so not getting the calcium she needed and she went from easy-kidder to difficult labor.

I'm a dairy goat girl, but I think a Boer who throws quads and can raise them is probably making plenty of milk. My dairy girls don't dry off easily. Meat goat folks - can you just not milk them to dry them off?


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

While this is all heart wrenching in a sense, it is also amazing and I may be reading everything all wrong, but the one that has been "down" the longest woke up and had to eat right then! And then another one! The third one is still snoozing. Before they woke up they were floppy and listless so I bundled them back up and laid them back down. I fugured they were slipping away or they were like I said earlier--"in the womb"--but I did not expect they could not be stimulated awake?
Anyway, I am rambling...lol
what would be a good amount of b complex to give them at a time and should/could I still give it by mouth or should it be injected at this point?


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

I wanted to let everyone know too that their weights are 4.8 lbs, 6.12, and 6.7. We did not weigh the 4th that died at birth. She had three bucks and a doe. It was the doe that died.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

happybleats said:


> I would continue the B complex...with the honey only wipe a tiny bit on their tongue or gums to boost them..
> 
> try letting themnurse from a bottle...pritcherd nipple is best as mentioned..
> 
> ...


Thank you, Happy Bleats! What a useful formula! so far they are just taking about 1 oz. to 1oz. plus 12 cc and two of them slept for 3 hours and the other is still sleeping. I rub them and use my two fingers to sort of pinch at them, and rub their tails. Should I remove the honey from the bottles? How about the probios--its a powder?


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> I wanted to let everyone know too that their weights are 4.8 lbs, 6.12, and 6.7. We did not weigh the 4th that died at birth. She had three bucks and a doe. It was the doe that died.


:-( Hug.

Have you done bottle babies before? They do sleep a lot when they're brand-new. They party hard and then crash out.

Feel the bellies after feeding. You don't want to see hollow tummies. Babies can get 10-20% of weight in milk per day; I like 15%. Always increase gradually. Weigh often if you do 10% - they grow fast.

When you feel like they're pretty much "out of the woods" start cutting them back to 4 bottles a day. I decide what schedule I want them on - say 6a, 11a, 5p, 10pm - and gradually increase the feeding amount for those hours, reduce the amount in the feedings in between.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

I would give 0,5 cc of B complex SQ daily - I also would not cut their bottles until they have reached their "birth" date- You can prolly cut out the honey in the bottle and just use s drop on their tongue to encourage sucking - try to not let them sleep more than 4 hours. Food and fluids are very important right now - You are doing such s great job in difficult circumstances.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> :-( Hug.
> 
> Have you done bottle babies before? They do sleep a lot when they're brand-new. They party hard and then crash out.
> 
> ...


I bottle fed some babies last year that had aspirated amniotic fluid whose mom had died. I understand the sleeping but they just go comatose! I can vigorously rub them and I get nothing, and as they eat they just fall out! it is almost unsettling. The b vitamins will probably help. One of them is up walking around well and one is trying and the other is laying around and not eating much at all--like only 15 cc every 2 hours and is not active. but does wake up. 
http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

If you save 1 or 2 you will still have best the odds. Be of good cheer and give yourself credit for what you have accomplished to this point. Blessing on you and yours.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

harleybarley said:


> I'm really surprised Edna had 2 years off. I've only seen that look (the pooched Lady bits in late pregnancy) in a goat who bred back too soon after delivering big kids. She was on pasture, so not getting the calcium she needed and she went from easy-kidder to difficult labor.
> 
> I'm a dairy goat girl, but I think a Boer who throws quads and can raise them is probably making plenty of milk. My dairy girls don't dry off easily. Meat goat folks - can you just not milk them to dry them off?


I don't milk my boers at all. Usually kids will stop nursing so much and mom will dry up enough to separate them without having to worry about her getting too full. Teat tape is also a good way to keep clingy kids from nursing all the time so mom can start to dry up.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Big producers will wean meat does cold turkey, but that's a good recipe for mastitis. Much better to taper them; if the kids are pulled at birth they need some milking to relieve pressure until they dry off.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Big producers will wean meat does cold turkey, but that's a good recipe for mastitis. Much better to taper them; if the kids are pulled at birth they need some milking to relieve pressure until they dry off.


That's what I thought. With dairy girls, there's no way they'd survive freshening/giving birth without being milked at first and slowly dried off. Heck, the way we know they're going to pop is by how tight their udder is!


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> I'm really surprised Edna had 2 years off. I've only seen that look (the pooched Lady bits in late pregnancy) in a goat who bred back too soon after delivering big kids. She was on pasture, so not getting the calcium she needed and she went from easy-kidder to difficult labor.
> 
> I'm a dairy goat girl, but I think a Boer who throws quads and can raise them is probably making plenty of milk. My dairy girls don't dry off easily. Meat goat folks - can you just not milk them to dry them off?


Yes, I have a couple of dairy goats and they have to be dried off but with Boers I am pretty sure that is not an issue. They only produce to meet the demand. I am sure that in cases like this it is probably a good idea to keep an eye on the udder though.
Her lady parts do not normally look like that which is one thing that prompted my first post.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

I do not know about other producers but my Boer does will NOT let you milk them once they have started to feed their babies. I barely manage to get some colostrum to store. My experiences match that of Dani's: the mother's wean their kids in a manner that allows them to dry off the same way I would if I were milking them or the way I do my dairy girls. I will milk them to relieve pressure if I need to but I have only had to do that once and that doe was Boer/Sannan. I have started to break does that I retain to a stanchion so that it is easier to manage them for whatever I need to do.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> I bottle fed some babies last year that had aspirated amniotic fluid whose mom had died. I understand the sleeping but they just go comatose! I can vigorously rub them and I get nothing, and as they eat they just fall out! it is almost unsettling. The b vitamins will probably help. One of them is up walking around well and one is trying and the other is laying around and not eating much at all--like only 15 cc every 2 hours and is not active. but does wake up.


Good, so you have a frame of reference. That is unusually inactive and I wonder if it's a preemie syndrome?

The one only eating 15 cc - I would tube him. I don't think he'll make it on 1/2 oz. per feeding.

They really need a min. 10 percent of weight to survive.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> Good, so you have a frame of reference. That is unusually inactive and I wonder if it's a preemie syndrome?
> 
> The one only eating 15 cc - I would tube him. I don't think he'll make it on 1/2 oz. per feeding.
> 
> They really need a min. 10 percent of weight to survive.


I was wondering about it being a preemie syndrome also?
I completely agree with you about the one only taking 15cc...he just passed :blue: I have a tube that we use for tube feeding my daughter but I know it is not long enough so I did not even try. I have tried to find them before and get my old vet to teach me how to use it both unsucessfully. I have had to place nasal gastric tubes in my daughter before so I know how to do it but never on a goat. The goat that just passed was the biggest but the weakest from the start in general. The smallest one is the one who is improving by leaps and bounds in comparison!


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

None of my girls will let me touch their udders... probably because I haven't trained them to since I have no reason too. I can't imagine trying to milk them either... boer teats are generally small. The few I've milk I've noticed how hard small teats, which are actually bigger than my boers, we're to milk.

I think with the boers self weaning comes easier for mom because she usually wont make the surplus of milk dairy does do 1. Because they aren't being milked dry on a schedule and 2. Because of genetics... she makes what her kids need and use and that's about it. Rarely will they make enough to need to be milked while kids are on them.

Also a lot of people who have big herds don't necessarily have great management styles. I never, ever recommend weaning cold turkey. It's stressful and your just asking for mastitis in any breed.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

I agree with you, Dani. They will let me milk about 6-8 oz. of colostrum when they first kid ut after that they will jump, kick, and holler! We do not usually seperate the kids from the moms either, some do but we do not. We just let the mom's handle it. 
And off topic, I have to say that I have an Aunt that lives in Greenville, N.C.! I was born and raised in Charleston, S.C. I have family in Western N.C. also--around Asheville


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> Her lady parts do not normally look like that which is one thing that prompted my first post.


I didn't see the first post before I saw this one. Yeah, that picture looks to me like a minor/beginning prolapse (that's why I was thinking about the muscle supportive nutrients). I halfway wonder if she delivered a kid alone that really should have been helped (wrong position, too big, labor too long so the canal got dry...).


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Nice! I've lived in or around Greenville NC my whole life. I have family in Greenville SC. Definitely a carolina girl  . I go near Asheville a few times a year for shows... fletcher to be exact.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

Oh how I miss home:sigh:...I go back at least once a year and make my rounds, visit the beach and a Live oak


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Self weaning seems to work fine in dairy too. They CAN have enough to milk as well as feed kids, but as long as they're actively nursing mastitis isn't a big concern, the babies will at least keep them from overfilling. But I've seen a number of does/ewes with one or both sides of the udder blown from weaning :/

Anyway, relating to the current topic, I'd just relieve pressure if needed but dry her off for her health.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> I didn't see the first post before I saw this one. Yeah, that picture looks to me like a minor/beginning prolapse (that's why I was thinking about the muscle supportive nutrients). I halfway wonder if she delivered a kid alone that really should have been helped (wrong position, too big, labor too long so the canal got dry...).


It is funny you mention that because the previous owner mentioned how Edna was one of those that would drop kids with ease out in the field...


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

I am wondering how long it should take for Edna to start showing signs of improvement? I am worried about her. Today she will not eat nor drink I am still giving her the glycol, magic, and b complex. I made a trip to the local feed store to get some alfalfa pellets to make a slurry of some sort only to find that they quit carrying them!! I do have alfalfa hay? Poor girl, she has been through so much and having her babies taken too. I cannot leave them outside though. I had two lamps and a heater on them and they still got cold!? They are all also in an insulated low ceiling barn. 
I forced her up and made her walk out of the pen and lay in the open with the other girls in the coral eating hay and such just to be amongst them while I cleaned and freshened up her stall but no reaction...


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Self weaning seems to work fine in dairy too. They CAN have enough to milk as well as feed kids, but as long as they're actively nursing mastitis isn't a big concern, the babies will at least keep them from overfilling. But I've seen a number of does/ewes with one or both sides of the udder blown from weaning :/
> 
> Anyway, relating to the current topic, I'd just relieve pressure if needed but dry her off for her health.


Yikes! How terrible  I have my first dairy goats, Sannen and Oberhasli and I get so nervous about things like that. I really hate to take over feeding her babes but i know that sometimes it is necessary and I truly feel like this is one of those times. They have such a hard time especially if they have had any time with the kids at all.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

These are pics of the two surviving bucklings. I tried to post this from my phone 9new to that!) so if it is duplicated, sorry!


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> I am wondering how long it should take for Edna to start showing signs of improvement? I am worried about her. Today she will not eat nor drink I am still giving her the glycol, magic, and b complex. I made a trip to the local feed store to get some alfalfa pellets to make a slurry of some sort only to find that they quit carrying them!! I do have alfalfa hay? Poor girl, she has been through so much and having her babies taken too. I cannot leave them outside though. I had two lamps and a heater on them and they still got cold!? They are all also in an insulated low ceiling barn.
> I forced her up and made her walk out of the pen and lay in the open with the other girls in the coral eating hay and such just to be amongst them while I cleaned and freshened up her stall but no reaction...


If she's not drinking, she'll go downhill fast. Drench her with water with electrolytes and keep up with the energy drench. Do you have ketone strips? If not, please get them. They'll tell you where she's at. If she's still strongly ketoxic, she needs glucose. If she's not, then we want to look at different first aid approaches.

Exercise is good, but not as good as nutrients and energy.

If she's okay with losing her kids, then let that go. Some goats know they need to lose the kids to survive. Other goats need the kids to make them hang on. It sounds like she's okay with losing the kids.

They're cute kids. I'm sorry we're down to 2. That's a risk. You had a situation where none of the kids might survive. It's sad that we're down to 2, but you're doing great at 2. Even in a normal quad-birth, you could lose some. This isn't normal. Sooo not normal.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> It is funny you mention that because the previous owner mentioned how Edna was one of those that would drop kids with ease out in the field...


The goat I mentioned before was like that - passed babies as easy as she passed gas as a first freshener. And she got with the buck when her kids were little, bred right back, and, when THOSE were born and I took them away, she SCREAMED for the buck and _tried_ to breed through the fence. She birthed easy, then harder, and now I'll be watching for signs she's damaged by it - she went mildly prolapse-y, now I'm monitoring for vaginal scarring/prolapse. If next birth is hard, she goes into retirement (and she'll take NO lumps for my management mistake, despite her being a witch). Meantime, she gets extra mineral supplements (replamin) to try to restore her body reserves.

And, for all that - she did pass her own kids all on her own. I could say she's an easy birther. It was "easy" for me, except for watching worriedly as she screamed the last one out just before I went in to help!

She has the genetics for easy birthing, but done too often, without heavy management to keep her in top condition, I think it drained her. She also pumps out milk. My biggest mistake was letting her birth so soon on mere pasture. Good nutrients, but not the minerals she needed (like calcium and magnesium).


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

caprinelivin said:


> These are pics of the two surviving bucklings. I tried to post this from my phone 9new to that!) so if it is duplicated, sorry!


Darlings!!! Is it okay to love baby meat goats? They're adorable!!


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> If she's not drinking, she'll go downhill fast. Drench her with water with electrolytes and keep up with the energy drench. Do you have ketone strips? If not, please get them. They'll tell you where she's at. If she's still strongly ketoxic, she needs glucose. If she's not, then we want to look at different first aid approaches.
> 
> Exercise is good, but not as good as nutrients and energy.
> 
> ...


4 am feeding...from a bottle now!
I tried to get ketone strips in town the other day and they were out, yes out!...:GAAH:I live pretty far out but I may be able to get someone to check another store in the next town for me.
This has been a bit difficult but ya'll have really helped me get through. My husband is crazy busy at work trying to get shut down for the holidays and his vacation and I am raising a toddler grandchild whose mother is here to help but she has a rare disorder and is limited. That is ok though...I live for moments such as these!...lol We are crazy goat people right:dance:


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

harleybarley said:


> Darlings!!! Is it okay to love baby meat goats? They're adorable!!


I know I sure love 'em! They are so cute especially when they are little, and I love them as adults too! They are special, like my Sannen ...and my Obie! I can hardly wait to see their kids! but I will


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

Edna is no longer with us...:blue: :tears: I really thought she was going to be ok until yesterday when she quit drinking.
Thank you Edna for the beautiful babies and your presence on our farm. You were a truly amazing girl and our lives are blessed because of you. I guess now she is in that lush, sunny pasture living out her days in peace:angelgoat:


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

So sorry. Whatever it was, was more than she and you together, could manage. But though you've lost an Edna, you have two little-Edna boys to keep you company. Edna's trusting you to take care of them for her.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Hug. I'm sorry. She sure went out knowing she was loved. 

Sometimes I think we're meant to get the ones we get, and maybe they have to come in and break our hearts because they need a little fussing and loving before they pass.


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## caprinelivin (Mar 6, 2014)

The babies are doing well today so far...they get hungry, fed, then sleep and kept warm. I still have them in a tote on a warming blanket set on low inside. I would like to try transitioning them to a light or maybe nothing but i will go slowly. One of them, the smallest one, is up and walking around well--just a little wobbly, but the other one is still not up and around but tries. I am going to give them a B complex shot every day for a while--any ideas on how long I should do that? and continue giving probios in the bottles. 
Once again, I really want to thank all of you for your help, support, and encouragement. I am so glad I found all of you and TGS. It is hard to express just how much you all and TGS mean to me! + I pray blessings on you all +


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

So sorry to hear!


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Wow. I've been looking through this thread and looks like you've had a long week!  You have been doing a fantastic job with the babies and so glad to hear they are improving!! :leap::thumbup::thumbup: So so so sorry you lost Edna.  :tear: You did all you could for her and sometimes it just happens anyway. :hug:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry you lost her. Don't be quick with changing their heat source. They will probably take a while to be able to regulate their temp properly.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

You've got a handful and then some. It can be sooo hard handling big goat jobs without a helper. Or a shoulder. Those babies are lucky. 4 am feedings - some human babies can't get that!

Yay! on the bottle. That should make feeding a lot faster! Are you upping the milk a little? Milk is medicine for tiny ones. Keep up b complex for a while. If not needed, they'll pee it out. Personally, if you gave a mini dose of BoSe, I'd give the rest now. 

Are the kids sleeping flopped out, or upright/sternal? 

Keep stimulating/rubbing. Hugs are good. Cold weather babies get lots of time in my jacket, warmed by body temp with a heartbeat. Like NICUs use human touch - it's good for babies.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

so sorry that you lost Edna - be reassured that you did everything possible for her. Sometimes even the best care and love is just not enough. They are all on loan to us and some leave us sooner but stay in our heart. You are doing an excellent job in very difficult circumstances.


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