# Really strange litter! (11 born, 5 survived, one with no eye holes!)



## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

We recently got a litter from my Lionlop buck X DM Lionhead doe. 

She had a massive litter of 11, three were very different from the rest. They had large heads, big eyes, and their bodies were very small. Three of the kits were giant. 

The first day we found one dead with a giant abdomen of clear fluids, two just dead, and one suffocated as we tried to save it.. The smallest of the groups had no desire to nurse, we had to hold it's head to the teat and force it to stay there to get it to feed. The litter had six runts by the second day with three goliaths. One of the runts survived and is about half the size of the others, but healthy, and the final runt just passed away, despite us giving him time after time to nurse (and he always did, but never enough for a full belly) He wouldn't grow, was always a little dehydrated. We tried our best to flip the doe and offer supplemental feeding to the smallest.. she had/has tons of milk, so it wasn't food shortage. 

Normally we'd chalk it up to the fact that it was a huge litter and possibly it was a duel pregnancy litter (we left her in the pen overnight with the buck, but we've never had this issue before.. ) however, the last kit.. well... it didn't have eye slits. It also had large eye's compared to it's head. 

We can't find anything on the internet to explain this. Not sure if it's safe to rebreed this pair if it's a known genetic thing. She's been a reliable doe in the past, but this is only her third litter. The first litter had two stillborns, two healthy, the second had 7 healthy kits, and this litter has 4 stunningly healthy kits that are absolutely thriving. We've never lost this many kits before and just wanted advice.


If it helps any.. most of the kits that died had her large white marking, dutch like.. Has there been any correlation to white markings and weak kits?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Sounds like its a bad pairing. I would rebreed to confirm. Sounds cruel but really thats the only way.

Sounds like you had two different problems going on, which won't be caused by being left together overnight. I understand the two horns of the uterus thing, but I've left rabbits together for days and weeks and never had dual pregnancy, I know colony breeders that have also never had it.

The two problems appear to be "peanut" kits and "oversized" kits. Peanut kits are undersized kits that can come with a wide range of deformities, including no eye holes, missing limbs, etc. They are usually very small and have larger heads. I put them down unless I need them to keep other kits warm as they are not known to survive for than a few days or a week at most.

I'm sorry you had to deal with this. But really rebreeding is the only sure way to see if its the pairing. It could have just been a really really bad luck litter.

How big is your buck compared to your doe? That does make a difference, if the buck carries a larger rabbit gene (like one parent being a larger rabbit) that could cause serious issues. Lionheads normally have 3 to 6 so yeah 11 is a HUGE litter.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Both the doe and the buck are around 10 pounds, she actually is closer to 12 pounds, both are large and not dwarfs, at least I thought.. 

She has an apple head and shorter ears, but we've never had a 'dwarf' baby before. So I thought peanuts weren't possible. As for the oversize kits, they all started out about the same size (besides the three super tiny ones) and the three largest ones just gorged on milk. 

We're planning on rebreeding because the kits that do survive are thriving wonderfully... I've bred this buck to many does and never had a dwarf before.. but the other does have also become extremely large with pregnancy so we're expecting extra large litters.. He does have the habit of mounting a doe a LOT. Five or six times an hour. Could the extra stimulation be causing them to super ovulate, which then creates nutrient deficiencies in the kits? 

Cream, the momma, got fresh bananas, Parsley, unlimited pellets, 100% Alfalfa hay, mixed fresh veggies, and BOSS during her pregnancy and nursing.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Icedangel11 said:


> Both the doe and the buck are around 10 pounds, she actually is closer to 12 pounds, both are large and not dwarfs, at least I thought..
> 
> She has an apple head and shorter ears, but we've never had a 'dwarf' baby before. So I thought peanuts weren't possible. As for the oversize kits, they all started out about the same size (besides the three super tiny ones) and the three largest ones just gorged on milk.
> 
> ...


I do not free feed during pregnancy (or before) I only free feed on day 3 after the kits are born. I think the alfalfa hay is a bit rich as well. I would do timothy hay or orchard grass, fresh veggies, 8-10 ounces (max since you're feeding so much other stuff) of pelleted feed per day and a sprinkle of boss. Though I only feed boss when my does are nursing.

My feeding schedule looks like this:

Timothy hay or orchard grass
1 ounce of pelleted feed per pound of doe/buck max per day
no fruit or veg
Leafy greens, coconut fronds, etc.
ACV 2X a week in water bottle

Day three post kidding:
Timothy hay or orchard grass
Unlimited pellets
leafy greens, coconut fronds, pidgeon pea plants and other legume greens
BOSS(like a tsp per day on top of her pellets)
half a tiny banana with skin (I grow them and so they are like 3-4 inches long haha)
1 alfalfa cube in the nestbox in the beginning as the kits grow I will toss a couple a day in there for them to play with, work teeth on, etc.
ACV every other day in water bottle.

I've had very very good success for years with this method of feeding. Does in good condition, glossy coats, successful decent sized litters with a nice growth rate on the kits.

I thought your lionhead was a dwarf because here there is no such creature as a standard sized lionhead. lol They are all these tiny little things.

I've seen peanut kits in both large breed and dwarf breed rabbits.

She may have produced a much too large litter due to her rich diet. I doubt it has anything to do with the number of breedings.... one breeding (like 1 fall off) usually produces 8-12 kits per breeding here at my place. Just like any other animal its millions of sperm each time so additional breedings usually are not necessary.


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## gegegoatgirl2698 (Feb 1, 2014)

Sounds like a bunch of peanuts to me. If it were me I wouldnt repeat that breeding. Peanuts are also alot more likely to die in gestation and that is hard on your doe. I would breed to a different buck and see if it happens again. If it happened again with a different buck I just wouldn't breed her. But that is just me  Also with such a large litter I would guess your doe is eating a little too well and getting flushed. If you want a smaller litter you could cut back on feed a couple days before breeding.


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## Icedangel11 (May 23, 2014)

Well, we just had a doe give birth with his kits. All normal, there's no chance of that doe carrying the dwarf gene. How could I tell if any of his kits are dwarf or not? They all appear to be normal kits, anyways.. hidden dwarfism?

Right now we've had a total of four litters from him born on my farm. A total of 30 kits. 2 average looking runts, 1 unpottied kit, and three peanuts that died, the other 25 are growing like weeds, very voracious and healthy. Weaning weights averaging about the same as my last buck from a completely different line and breed (English spot X NZ mutt) 

Well, that's just a pickle. We'll rebreed the doe and see what happens. It just sucks that they can have peanuts without being obviously dwarfed.


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