# Udder Conformation



## Rancho Draco

I want to start off by saying that I know these does are far from high quality. They are the first two does I had gotten and got them when I knew absolutely nothing about goats. They are Kinders if it matters at all. That being said, I know Serenity has a horrible udder in pretty much every way. I don't think it could get much worse so all of her kids are going to the butcher. Are there any positives here? Not planning on breeding her again after her next lactation. Her udder just can't do it anymore. This is pre milking this morning. It is a 24 hour fill but the does are being dried off right now so they don't get super tight.
























Next up is my doe Brownie. A big improvement but still far from perfect. What do you see here? She is also being dried off so her udder is far from tight even after 24 hours. Thoughts? Is it worth keeping any doelings from her?


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## Dandy Hill Farm

Sorry, but I don't like either one very much. Like you said, Brownie does have the better udder of the two though. In your does defense, Kinders aren't a very popular breed and they are also considered a dual-purpose breed so many of their udders just aren't that great. With that being said, I'm sure there are a few Kinder breeders that have (and breed for) better udders, but they few and far between. It's also hard to judge udders when they aren't full.

@Jubillee has more experience with conformation then me, maybe she'll have more to add.


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Sorry, but I don't like either one very much. Like you said, Brownie does have the better udder of the two though. In your does defense, Kinders aren't a very popular breed and they are also considered a dual-purpose breed so many of their udders just aren't that great. With that being said, I'm sure there are a few Kinder breeders that have (and breed for) better udders, but they few and far between. It's also hard to judge udders when they aren't full.
> 
> @Jubillee has more experience with conformation then me, maybe she'll have more to add.


The breeder that I bought from did not really breed selectively or cull at all. They were selling a lot of their does this fall due to personal reasons and hay shortages and I was able to get my hands on a doe that they had purchased from a place in Colorado. She is dry so I won't know what her udder looks like until spring. She has better attachments in the front than these two but her rear attachments look about like Brownie's from what I can tell. I think next year I'm going to have to put in the gas money and find a nice buck. There just aren't any real quality Kinders in my area.


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## happybleats

I applaud you for wanting to breed up.. alot of folks just think meat...udders don't matter but I think we should thrive to improve all breeds no matter there purpose. 
While neither are great, The second doe would be much easier to breed up from then the first doe. A nice buck with nice udder genetics can throw some much improved daughters. Maybe by second or 3rd generation will have some pretty nice udders.


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## Jubillee

I agree with all the above. And yes, it's much harder to judge when empty or drying up. I look at my girls as they dry up and I'm like...ehhhhhh no. LOL. But you can see the true structure once full. They do appear to at least have division of halves, maybe a stronger medial, and good-sized teats. But all that wont matter if the attachments aren't worth anything. 

I know kinders are hard to find good reputable breeders that are trying to improve. You may look for your own nice pygmy buck and a Nubian doe or two that have very nice proper udders. Then keep a son to use on your two there and see if you get improvement. You may have to do that a couple of times to improve more and more. You could (I assume it's just like mini-Nubians except with Pygmys) also breed your home-bred kinder buckling to a new Nubian with an even better udder and get yourself a solid buckling that will improve udders. That's how I'd go about it. I don't know anything about Pygmy lines though. I do mini-Nubians which are Nigerian x Nubian mixed. 

I believe @MellonFriend has Kinders as well.


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## Rancho Draco

Jubillee said:


> I agree with all the above. And yes, it's much harder to judge when empty or drying up. I look at my girls as they dry up and I'm like...ehhhhhh no. LOL. But you can see the true structure once full. They do appear to at least have division of halves, maybe a stronger medial, and good-sized teats. But all that wont matter if the attachments aren't worth anything.
> 
> I know kinders are hard to find good reputable breeders that are trying to improve. You may look for your own nice pygmy buck and a Nubian doe or two that have very nice proper udders. Then keep a son to use on your two there and see if you get improvement. You may have to do that a couple of times to improve more and more. You could (I assume it's just like mini-Nubians except with Pygmys) also breed your home-bred kinder buckling to a new Nubian with an even better udder and get yourself a solid buckling that will improve udders. That's how I'd go about it. I don't know anything about Pygmy lines though. I do mini-Nubians which are Nigerian x Nubian mixed.
> 
> I believe @MellonFriend has Kinders as well.


Kinders actually cannot be bred back to the parent breeds. They must be bred to another Kinder. There is decent Nubian lines in my area but I think I'll see a unicorn before I see a pygmy that should actually be used to make Kinders. The buck that I picked up last fall is a first generation cross from another farm. He has a decent body but his udder genetics unfortunately take after his pygmy sure. I would never have used him with the intention of selling breeding stock. Or keeping any really. I'm butchering all the kids I get from him but I'm keeping Brownie's doeling from this spring just to see how her udder turns out. She very well may be butchered a couple years down the road. The only reason that I do it is that Serenity, for all her faults, is my best milk producer and with her not able to keep up with her udder, I'm going to need a other doe to milk after this upcoming season. I've been reaching out to breeders within a days drive to find a nice buck for next year so wish me luck on that front!


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## Jubillee

Are you wanting to keep them registered? If not, you can find a good mini-Nubian buck, plenty that have great udders behind them and then use them on your girls. 

Interesting you can't breed back to the foundation. Hmmm, that makes things a bit more difficult. You have to invest in way more stock to have enough diversity to improve.


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## Rancho Draco

Jubillee said:


> Are you wanting to keep them registered? If not, you can find a good mini-Nubian buck, plenty that have great udders behind them and then use them on your girls.
> 
> Interesting you can't breed back to the foundation. Hmmm, that makes things a bit more difficult. You have to invest in way more stock to have enough diversity to improve.


They're actually not registered. I am looking to keep them purebred though. I think my plan will be to put in the drive to get a nice buck and work from there.


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## Rancho Draco

This is Brownie's doeling that I am keeping. I really don't expect much of her but I would love to be presently surprised if she wants to turn into a great doe! She obviously has a lot of things that are not great about her. She's more of an experiment to see just how bad my bucks genetics are.


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## Dandy Hill Farm

YES!! Thank you so much for only breeding the best you can and culling the ones that don't make the cut!! I wish more people would do that!! Thank you!!

I honestly think Brownie's doeling looks pretty nice! I'm not quite sure how to judge Kinders since they are a dual-purpose breed, but I don't think she looks horrible!! It will be interesting to see her FF udder, I hope she surprises you!! Do you happen to have pictures of her sire's dam's udder?

And yes, @MellonFriend has Kinders too! I think you two are they only active members that own Kinders.


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> YES!! Thank you so much for only breeding the best you can and culling the ones that don't make the cut!! I wish more people would do that!! Thank you!!
> 
> I honestly think Brownie's doeling looks pretty nice! I'm not quite sure how to judge Kinders since they are a dual-purpose breed, but I don't think she looks horrible!! It will be interesting to see her FF udder, I hope she surprises you!! Do you happen to have pictures of her sire's dam's udder?
> 
> And yes, @MellonFriend has Kinders too! I think you two are they only active members that own Kinders.


Unfortunately I do not have pictures from the sire's side of the family. I know that he carries genetics for split teats but none of the kids this year have teat defects. This is one solid reason all but this doeling are going to be butchered. Another is that his rump is short and steep, although not as steep as Brownie is. Her doeling seems to have inherited that from him while actually at this point seeming to be more level. I'm hoping that with more time to grow she may lengthen out more. My buck was really stubby until this summer when he really lengthened out. Another reason is that he is just the biggest pain to deal with and I'm ready to eat him and be done!!!


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## Rancho Draco

There is actually a lot about Brownie's doeling that is not half bad which is the only reason I even began to consider keeping her. I wish that she was a bit more meaty but she may grow into it with age. It's the big unknown with the bad udder genetics on the side of the buck that I don't want to deal with. I'm fairly sure the pairing is bringing down udder quality which I don't have a lot of already. That doesn't mean I'm not still crossing my fingers though!!!


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## Dandy Hill Farm

I believe that you can't judge kids too harshly as they can change so much as they mature. They also could be going through an awkward growth spurt that could be making them look bad. But it does sound like you know a quite a bit about this doeling's background. I have also heard that their rumps can potentially get leveler once they freshen, maybe that will be the case for this girl. I noticed her front legs look a little odd, is she just standing weird in the picture? Do you have any good pictures from the side of Brownie and your buck? I would be interested in seeing their conformation compared to their doeling's. 😊


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## Dandy Hill Farm

That's good that the split teat gene didn't get passed on to any of his offspring...I hope the doeling won't pass it on either. Also, I think finding a quality a buck would be a WONDERFUL idea and should really help move your herd in the right direction!! Hope you are able to find one!!


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## goatblessings

Get the very BEST buck you can find and afford. It does so much in moving your herd forward. Hard to find Kinders. If you really want milk, you may look into dairy breeds.


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I believe that you can't judge kids too harshly as they can change so much as they mature. They also could be going through an awkward growth spurt that could be making them look bad. But it does sound like you know a quite a bit about this doeling's background. I have also heard that their rumps can potentially get leveler once they freshen, maybe that will be the case for this girl. I noticed her front legs look a little odd, is she just standing weird in the picture? Do you have any good pictures from the side of Brownie and your buck? I would be interested in seeing their conformation compared to their doeling's. 😊


She may be standing weird but not by much. I'll see if I have a different picture. It's dark here now so any new pics will have to wait until tomorrow. These are the best that I already have on hand. The pictures of the buck are taken on the side of a small hill so he's standing slightly off to make up for it.


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## MellonFriend

Yes!!! Someone else with kinders!!! 🥳🎉 I'm not alone anymore!

I have not read through the whole post so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant.

Are your kinders registered? Do you mind sharing where you are located? (The state is all I'm wondering about). I have had terrific experience with my kinders as far as milk production and decent conformation goes. I know that the breed is young, so there aren't a ton of good stock out there, but it's a breed that disserves much more attention than they get, so I would applaud you for not crossing if you can avoid it.


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## Rancho Draco

goatblessings said:


> Get the very BEST buck you can find and afford. It does so much in moving your herd forward. Hard to find Kinders. If you really want milk, you may look into dairy breeds.


I plan on doing a much more extensive buck search this upcoming summer. And I really don't need a higher producing doe than I have already. I'm totally fine with just milking more does. My family and I have fallen in love with the Kinders and I know just how much potential the breed has and I would love to see it happen.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Yes!!! Someone else with kinders!!! 🥳🎉 I'm not alone anymore!
> 
> I have not read through the whole post so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant.
> 
> Are your kinders registered? Do you mind sharing where you are located? (The state is all I'm wondering about). I have had terrific experience with my kinders as far as milk production and decent conformation goes. I know that the breed is young, so there aren't a ton of good stock out there, but it's a breed that disserves much more attention than they get, so I would applaud you for not crossing if you can avoid it.


They are not registered. I'm in Minnesota but live very close to Wisconsin. If you know of any breeders in the area please let me know!! I have ZERO connections so my search is slow and probably not as fruitful as it should be in finding breeders. How much milk do you get from your does?


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## K.B.

Rancho Draco said:


> They are not registered. I'm in Minnesota but live very close to Wisconsin. If you know of any breeders in the area please let me know!! I have ZERO connections so my search is slow and probably not as fruitful as it should be in finding breeders. How much milk do you get from your does?


Hi from Minnesota as well! I don't know about any kinder breeders sorry I'm of no help


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## K.B.

Home | North Star Kinders I found these people on a quick Google search...


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## MellonFriend

Rancho Draco said:


> They are not registered. I'm in Minnesota but live very close to Wisconsin. If you know of any breeders in the area please let me know!! I have ZERO connections so my search is slow and probably not as fruitful as it should be in finding breeders. How much milk do you get from your does?


Do you know about the kinder goat breeder association website? They have a breeders map there. I wish you were closer to me, I know a bunch of good breeders around the south-east. 

One of my does gives just under a half a gallon a day (Bella) and the other gives just over (Prim). That's their steady production. At their peaks Bella was giving a three quarters of a gallon a day and Prim was giving a whopping gallon a day.

I am super passionate about the breed, so it's really nice to hear that your family has fallen in love with them. 

I'd like to share with you what my does' udders look like so you can have a comparison. I'm _not_ doing this to brag, I know my girls need improvement too, but I just think it might help for you to see a comparison. Judge My Does' Udders 

My advice would be to learn as much about conformation as you can so you can know what to look for. Even though kinders are not a dairy breed 100%, you can still apply dairy principles to them.


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## Rancho Draco

K.B. said:


> Home | North Star Kinders I found these people on a quick Google search...


Thank you. I have actually already reached out to them but have yet to get a response.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Do you know about the kinder goat breeder association website? They have a breeders map there. I wish you were closer to me, I know a bunch of good breeders around the south-east.
> 
> One of my does gives just under a half a gallon a day (Bella) and the other gives just over (Prim). That's their steady production. At their peaks Bella was giving a three quarters of a gallon a day and Prim was giving a whopping gallon a day.
> 
> I am super passionate about the breed, so it's really nice to hear that your family has fallen in love with them.
> 
> I'd like to share with you what my does' udders look like so you can have a comparison. I'm _not_ doing this to brag, I know my girls need improvement too, but I just think it might help for you to see a comparison. Judge My Does' Udders
> 
> My advice would be to learn as much about conformation as you can so you can know what to look for. Even though kinders are not a dairy breed 100%, you can still apply dairy principles to them.


I do. That is how we found the breeder we got our does from. Our buck was not from a registered breeder. There are only two breeders in MN. The ones in Wisconsin are no small trip either but I may have to venture out that way for a buck and maybe some does at some point.

The breeder we bought from, the only on in the southern 70% or so of the state, bought some really nice stock in the 90s and has done nothing to maintain their quality since. They also never registered any of the kids. I'm hoping to hear back at some point from the breeder up in the northern part of the state. I get a half gallon at peak from Brownie but her lactation cycles are short and she drops off fast. She will be dry no matter what I do before 6 months of lactation. Serenity gives about 10 cups at peak but holds there for longer but she also has somewhat short lactation cycles.

I'll take a look at that. Thank you!!


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## K.B.

I'd try contacting them again! Have you tried Northern Iowa? It'd be a bit of a drive but would be worth it if you found a good buck!


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Do you know about the kinder goat breeder association website? They have a breeders map there. I wish you were closer to me, I know a bunch of good breeders around the south-east.
> 
> One of my does gives just under a half a gallon a day (Bella) and the other gives just over (Prim). That's their steady production. At their peaks Bella was giving a three quarters of a gallon a day and Prim was giving a whopping gallon a day.
> 
> I am super passionate about the breed, so it's really nice to hear that your family has fallen in love with them.
> 
> I'd like to share with you what my does' udders look like so you can have a comparison. I'm _not_ doing this to brag, I know my girls need improvement too, but I just think it might help for you to see a comparison. Judge My Does' Udders
> 
> My advice would be to learn as much about conformation as you can so you can know what to look for. Even though kinders are not a dairy breed 100%, you can still apply dairy principles to them.


Lots of good examples there! I can see what flaws others are seeing but it would be SO NICE to have a half decent udder to start with!


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## Rancho Draco

K.B. said:


> I'd try contacting them again! Have you tried Northern Iowa? It'd be a bit of a drive but would be worth it if you found a good buck!


Zero breeders is Iowa, Nebraska, North Dakota, and South Dakota. Ive contacted the North Star Kinders twice now but I get that pic can be busy sometimes. If I don't hear back from them in a couple weeks I'm going to start reaching out to Wisconsin. They sure are a long drive away though, farthest part of the state.


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## K.B.

Yeah I suppose but if you could get a buck that would improve your herd well worth it! It is a long drive... maybe don't wait and just start looking!


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## MellonFriend

Maybe you could find someone that would be willing to meet you half way or maybe you could arrange for a livestock transport (not exactly sure how that works, but I've heard of it being done). Just throwing this out there, if you do find someone that has the kind of stock you are looking for, if they happened to have an unrelated doe or doeling in addition to a buck, it wouldn't be a bad idea to add more good genes to your pool. I completely get it if that is not feasible, but just thought I'd throw that out there if you were having to drive far, it would be nice to give yourself more to work with for all that hassle. And hey, more goats are always better, am I right! 😁


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Maybe you could find someone that would be willing to meet you half way or maybe you could arrange for a livestock transport (not exactly sure how that works, but I've heard of it being done). Just throwing this out there, if you do find someone that has the kind of stock you are looking for, if they happened to have an unrelated doe or doeling in addition to a buck, it wouldn't be a bad idea to add more good genes to your pool. I completely get it if that is not feasible, but just thought I'd throw that out there if you were having to drive far, it would be nice to give yourself more to work with for all that hassle. And hey, more goats are always better, am I right! 😁


I had some very similar thoughts! I think if I have to go into Wisconsin I will look at possibly another girl or two at the same time. If I can stay in state, probably just the buck. I am looking to get on whatever list I need to be on this winter so that everything is ready to go next year. I don't have a proper livestock trailer so it makes me more unwilling to do the long drive. Transport in the past has been in a large plastic dog crate strapped onto the trailer we have. The setup works great for the shorter distances that I have done it over but I don't know how well it would work for hours at a time on the interstate. That being said, cash is short right now and I have no idea how expensive livestock transport is. 

Decisions, decisions...


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## MellonFriend

Rancho Draco said:


> Decisions, decisions...


Well keep us updated if you decide on anything! 👍


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Well keep us updated if you decide on anything! 👍


I will! I took some pictures of my new doe's udder and some of Brownie's udder after milking this morning just for comparison. The first pictures are of the new doe, Red. She still has a little bit of milk left in her left side so she looks a bit lopsided but I don't think she really is. It looks like she has decent attachments but I don't think her rear attachments are any better than Brownie.


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I believe that you can't judge kids too harshly as they can change so much as they mature. They also could be going through an awkward growth spurt that could be making them look bad. But it does sound like you know a quite a bit about this doeling's background. I have also heard that their rumps can potentially get leveler once they freshen, maybe that will be the case for this girl. I noticed her front legs look a little odd, is she just standing weird in the picture? Do you have any good pictures from the side of Brownie and your buck? I would be interested in seeing their conformation compared to their doeling's. 😊


I got some more pictures of the doeling this morning. I don't really have a good grasp of conformation for the legs. What is it that you see? Can you even see it in these pictures?


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## Dandy Hill Farm

Rancho Draco said:


> I got some more pictures of the doeling this morning. I don't really have a good grasp of conformation for the legs. What is it that you see? Can you even see it in these pictures?


Her knee looks bent-out to me. Like the image described as "Buck-kneed" below. But maybe it's just the way she's standing.... Does anyone else see it?


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## Dandy Hill Farm

Rancho Draco said:


> I will! I took some pictures of my new doe's udder and some of Brownie's udder after milking this morning just for comparison. The first pictures are of the new doe, Red. She still has a little bit of milk left in her left side so she looks a bit lopsided but I don't think she really is. It looks like she has decent attachments but I don't think her rear attachments are any better than Brownie.
> View attachment 213093
> View attachment 213091
> View attachment 213092
> View attachment 213095
> View attachment 213094


Again, it's really hard to judge dry udders, but I'm thinking Red's udder will be better than Brownie's!


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## Dandy Hill Farm

IMO, Brownie's doeling's body conformation looks like an improvement compared to both of her parents....


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Her knee looks bent-out to me. Like the image described as "Buck-kneed" below. But maybe it's just the way she's standing.... Does anyone else see it?
> View attachment 213105


I think this would be hard to see from a photo but being able to actually look at her in person, I think she may have a slight bit of this. It's hard to tell even in person because I have basically zero level ground. Most of the property is flat but it's infested with gophers so there are old and new gopher mounds pretty much wherever you are.i don't think it's very pronounced though.


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Again, it's really hard to judge dry udders, but I'm thinking Red's udder will be better than Brownie's!


I agree! Or I hope so at least!!


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## MellonFriend

I agree, I think your doeling shows promise.

I see that leg thing you are talking about. Some of my goats have that too. It's like their legs sort of bend towards and then away from their knee. Legs are farther down on my list of things I'm worried about with conformation for my herd (especially front legs). I like to keep a mental order of things I'm looking for conformation wise. For example I'm really looking to improve width, rump angle, and muscling, not to mention my list of udder improvements I'd like to see. I certainly want to improve it all, of course, but I think it is good to keep in perspective that we cant correct it all at once, if you know what I mean. 😉


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> IMO, Brownie's doeling's body conformation looks like an improvement compared to both of her parents....


I agree. It's the only reason I'm keeping her. If her udder is at least not a lot worse then Brownie's, I can probably breed that out it her kids with a good buck. She has nice form, much nicer then any of the other kids this year, I think. The doeling out of Serenity is no where near as nice and is severely lacking in length. My buck was really short for a long time and he has gotten better but I wouldn't say he is adding any length to my does. Here at the two girls side by side. This is from a week ago. They are only two days apart in age.


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## MellonFriend

How old are your two doelings?


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> How old are your two doelings?


They will be 6 months old this weekend. I think they are on the small side but then again I don't have a good reference as I've never worked with young kids before. The breeder I got my does from doesn't breed until two years of age so I wasn't expecting big kids the first year anyways.


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## Dandy Hill Farm

She does have nice length, especially compared to her half sister!! I agree, I don't think her legs look_ that_ bent in some pictures, and the pictures were they do, I think she was just standing a little weird.

It's hard to tell from pictures, but they do seem a little small for their age. Maybe their lines are just slow growing, nothing wrong with that if you don't mind. 😊


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> She does have nice length, especially compared to her half sister!! I agree, I don't think her legs look_ that_ bent in some pictures, and the pictures were they do, I think she was just standing a little weird.
> 
> It's hard to tell from pictures, but they do seem a little small for their age. Maybe their lines are just slow growing, nothing wrong with that if you don't mind. 😊


Im fairly sure it's their lines because when I went to go get Red, I got to see their two year olds that they are breeding this fall. Even at two years old they are not filled out and still very much have that baby look to them. I'm fairly sure it's not a feed issue. They feed alfalfa free choice year round and a grain mix that is a goat feed from the local mill with alfalfa pellets, sweet feed, BOSS, and a goat balancer supplement added in. I feed a similar grain mix, from the same mill and all. I feed grass/alfalfa mix hay when pastures are not available. I usually get alfalfa hay from the breeder but with the drought this year they are selling a lot of stock just to be able to get through the winter on the hay they have. So all in all, I don't feed as rich a diet as the breeder but even the breeder doesn't have fast growing goats.


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## Dandy Hill Farm

Sounds like they come from slow-maturing lines. It also sounds like they have a great diet and are well-fed. 😊 Other things that can cause slow growers is lack of minerals and an overload of worms. I'm not in any way saying or assuming that you're goats are lacking minerals and/or have worms. I just wanted to mention it in case you didn't know. 😉😊


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## MellonFriend

I have a doeling that I'm keeping that is almost seven months. Would it help you if I got some pictures of her for comparison?


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## Rancho Draco

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Sounds like they come from slow-maturing lines. It also sounds like they have a great diet and are well-fed. 😊 Other things that can cause slow growers is lack of minerals and an overload of worms. I'm not in any way saying or assuming that you're goats are lacking minerals and/or have worms. I just wanted to mention it in case you didn't know. 😉😊


They have minerals. Everyone went a week or two without a little while ago when the feed store was having trouble with a shipment but otherwise they have had them.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> I have a doeling that I'm keeping that is almost seven months. Would it help you if I got some pictures of her for comparison?


That would be amazing!


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## MellonFriend

Great! I would love to share pictures of her. Now, to find some level ground of my own and somehow get her on it. . . 🤔 😄


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Great! I would love to share pictures of her. Now, to find some level ground of my own and somehow get her on it. . . 🤔 😄


That is the hardest part of it all!!😄 My whole family was very sick this spring for about 2 months, myself included, so the kids didn't get much socialization while we were playing catch up all summer. They let you get close but that's about it. It makes it very difficult to get decent pictures.


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## MellonFriend

Here's my girl, Murphy. I think I got her on about the most level spot in this pasture. As you can see my toplines really need some work. Her brother has a much more level topline than her, so I'm hopeful that she's got the genes.









Eesh, My camera wasn't entirely above her like I thought it was in this next one. 😆









She wouldn't put that little tail of hers up. 😌









And here she is in close proximity to my four foot fence, for a size reference. And you get bonus pictures of the rest of my herd.😊









Hopefully I haven't overloaded you with my flood of pictures! 😅


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## Jubillee

@MellonFriend she looks fairly wide. I like her rear leg set from behind! Other than the topline, she's looking good, a big beefy girl too! 

I wonder how you judge kinders. I know between Boers and Nubians, it's so different. Boers you look for rectangles? and Nubians (or dairy) it's triangles and angularity. Now when you mix it...which do you look for?


----------



## MellonFriend

Jubillee said:


> @MellonFriend she looks fairly wide. I like her rear leg set from behind! Other than the topline, she's looking good, a big beefy girl too!
> 
> I wonder how you judge kinders. I know between Boers and Nubians, it's so different. Boers you look for rectangles? and Nubians (or dairy) it's triangles and angularity. Now when you mix it...which do you look for?


Thanks Jubillee!

I try to stay away from defining my kinders by shapes. 😅 That being said, in my head the ideal kinder body type would be a meaty triangle. 😆

Here is an example from the KGBA's website. See? Meaty triangle.


----------



## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Here's my girl, Murphy. I think I got her on about the most level spot in this pasture. As you can see my toplines really need some work. Her brother has a much more level topline than her, so I'm hopeful that she's got the genes.
> View attachment 213112
> 
> 
> Eesh, My camera wasn't entirely above her like I thought it was in this next one. 😆
> View attachment 213113
> 
> 
> She wouldn't put that little tail of hers up. 😌
> View attachment 213114
> 
> 
> And here she is in close proximity to my four foot fence, for a size reference. And you get bonus pictures of the rest of my herd.😊
> View attachment 213115
> 
> 
> Hopefully I haven't overloaded you with my flood of pictures! 😅


She's beautiful! I love the spots. She looks to be a lot bigger than I think my doeling(Primrose) is going to be in a month. There is no such thing as too many pictures of goats!


----------



## MellonFriend

Thank you so much, @Rancho Draco. I must admit to you that I picked her mostly because of her color, even though this past year I did get another doeling from a different dam that had better conformation than Murph. I just could pass her up though. She has such and outstanding personality. I knew she was the doeling that would make me the happiest and I tell myself that that was the first and last time I will allow myself to make a decision based mostly on color. 😏


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Thank you so much, @Rancho Draco. I must admit to you that I picked her mostly because of her color, even though this past year I did get another doeling from a different dam that had better conformation than Murph. I just could pass her up though. She has such and outstanding personality. I knew she was the doeling that would make me the happiest and I tell myself that that was the first and last time I will allow myself to make a decision based mostly on color. 😏


I don't think I would have been able to see her off either! I absolutely love the colors of Serenity's doeling. It's a good thing that's the only thing I like about her because otherwise I'd have to keep her!!LOL She has her mother's spastic personality along with her physical faults and who knows what else from my buck. But color wise I think she really is a beautiful kid. I think she was the cutest kid this year. She is 1 day old in the picture below and thinks she should be back inside mom where it is warm 😂


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## MellonFriend

Oh my goodness! Soo adorable! Her coloration is beautiful. Don't you just love kinder ears?🥰


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Oh my goodness! Soo adorable! Her coloration is beautiful. Don't you just love kinder ears?🥰


They are the best!! I especially love when they are frosted.


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## Rancho Draco

Not the greatest picture, but you can see how big the bucklings are compared to the fence. It's all 4 foot fencing here too. I think my bucklings are more on track with your kid, maybe still a little behind. The doelings aren't growing near as fast. I expected that though. I leave the bucklings intact and then butcher whenever pastures get low enough that I have to start feeding hay again in the fall.


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## MellonFriend

So, you keep your meat kids intact, you haven't noticed any buck-y taste with the meat? I will be butchering my first buckling this year and I wethered him.

This is all very hard to tell with pictures, but I'm not sure your buckling looks smaller than my kids. It's hard because I feel like I look at my young goats, and still see little kids.😄 I'll measure my kids at the withers and also see if I can estimate a weight for you.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> So, you keep your meat kids intact, you haven't noticed any buck-y taste with the meat? I will be butchering my first buckling this year and I wethered him.
> 
> This is all very hard to tell with pictures, but I'm not sure your buckling looks smaller than my kids. It's hard because I feel like I look at my young goats, and still see little kids.😄 I'll measure my kids at the withers and also see if I can estimate a weight for you.


This will be my first time leaving them intact but we don't mind a gamey flavor as my family does a lot of hunting so if it tastes bucky, we will still use it. I will have to let you know when we cook up our first bit of it if it tastes funny at all. In the past we have weathered but they just don't get as big as fast and I really don't have the hay to keep them over the winter. If I had a tractor so that I could do round bales I might wether and keep over the winter but I don't at this point.

I took some better pictures of the kids standing next to the fences this morning. I still didn't get low enough with the girls to be level with them but you get the idea. Again, not even ground but you get a decently accurate idea looking at everyone's hip height. The darker boy has really packed on the pounds in the past week or two. He is Serenity's boy and he was big enough at birth that I had to pull him.


----------



## Jubillee

MellonFriend said:


> Thanks Jubillee!
> 
> I try to stay away from defining my kinders by shapes. 😅 That being said, in my head the ideal kinder body type would be a meaty triangle. 😆
> 
> Here is an example from the KGBA's website. See? Meaty triangle.
> View attachment 213116


I don'tgo by shapes per se either but it's all I could think of to describe what i was saying LOL. That makes sense. I can see dairy aspect in her with a bit of meatiness! Gotcha! I was mostly trying to figure out the confirmation goal of a dairy/meat mix. 

I would love if you'd post when you butcher your wether. If we have any wethers this year we can't sell (or we may do it purposefully) we are going to put them with our sheep who graze all day and will butcher them later in the year. I'd love to see what you get out of yours. 

Haha, I look at all my girls who were born early this year and I think they look so small still. But then they stand by one of the mature girls and I think, ehh, they're pretty big. I weigh and measure height and see they're good, but still, they look so little to me LOL.


----------



## Jubillee

Rancho Draco said:


> This will be my first time leaving them intact but we don't mind a gamey flavor as my family does a lot of hunting so if it tastes bucky, we will still use it. I will have to let you know when we cook up our first bit of it if it tastes funny at all. In the past we have weathered but they just don't get as big as fast and I really don't have the hay to keep them over the winter. If I had a tractor so that I could do round bales I might wether and keep over the winter but I don't at this point.
> 
> I took some better pictures of the kids standing next to the fences this morning. I still didn't get low enough with the girls to be level with them but you get the idea. Again, not even ground but you get a decently accurate idea looking at everyone's hip height. The darker boy has really packed on the pounds in the past week or two. He is Serenity's boy and he was big enough at birth that I had to pull him.
> View attachment 213154
> View attachment 213153


I don't think your girls are terribly small. I have a mini Nubian doeling that is 10 months now and she was 70# and 23-24" tall. She's half Nubian; half ND. A little different than yours but I think it to be a good size. Yours might be bigger at 10 months due to the meat genetics behind it. But maybe it helps to give you an idea.


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## Rancho Draco

Jubillee said:


> I don't think your girls are terribly small. I have a mini Nubian doeling that is 10 months now and she was 70# and 23-24" tall. She's half Nubian; half ND. A little different than yours but I think it to be a good size. Yours might be bigger at 10 months due to the meat genetics behind it. But maybe it helps to give you an idea.


What do you use to measure weight? My scale kicked the bucket this spring so I haven't been able to weigh anyone. The one I was using before was just an old baby scale that we weren't using anymore so I brought it out to the barn.


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## MellonFriend

Murphy is 21in. at the shoulder and around 70lbs. My wether is 22in and 75lbs. I used a weight tape to estimate weight, but I'm aware that it's probably not very accurate. I was able to pick up Murphy and I thought she felt a bit lighter than 70lbs.



Jubillee said:


> I would love if you'd post when you butcher your wether. If we have any wethers this year we can't sell (or we may do it purposefully) we are going to put them with our sheep who graze all day and will butcher them later in the year. I'd love to see what you get out of yours.


I'll be sure to do that! If you decide to too, it would be great to know what you get!


----------



## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Murphy is 21in. at the shoulder and around 70lbs. My wether is 22in and 75lbs. I used a weight tape to estimate weight, but I'm aware that it's probably not very accurate. I was able to pick up Murphy and I thought she felt a bit lighter than 70lbs.
> 
> 
> I'll be sure to do that! If you decide to too, it would be great to know what you get!


I really should get a weight tape too. Are you using one for dairy goats or for meat goats? Even if it wasn't accurate it at least gives an idea for how much they are growing.


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## Jubillee

Rancho Draco said:


> What do you use to measure weight? My scale kicked the bucket this spring so I haven't been able to weigh anyone. The one I was using before was just an old baby scale that we weren't using anymore so I brought it out to the barn.


I used to use a weigh tape. But I bought a dog scale that did up to 225# off Chewy dot com. It was on sale for about $80 (which they do often) and I used one of those $20 off coupons I get in the mail. It works great for me.


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## Jubillee

That said, this last weight check, I used the weigh tape and the scale to compare. Most of mine it was pretty straight on. But a few it varied at most up to 10# either way.


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## MellonFriend

Rancho Draco said:


> I really should get a weight tape too. Are you using one for dairy goats or for meat goats? Even if it wasn't accurate it at least gives an idea for how much they are growing.


I have the Caprine Supply dairy goat one. There is also some sort of calculation you can do with a normal measuring tape: https://practicalfarmers.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Estimating-animal-weight.pdf


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> I have the Caprine Supply dairy goat one. There is also some sort of calculation you can do with a normal measuring tape: https://practicalfarmers.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Estimating-animal-weight.pdf


Okay. Thank you. I have a cloth tape so I'll try that today and see what I get. Wish me luck, I have a feeling she won't like being wrapped up in a tape!😂


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## Rancho Draco

Okay. It went better than I thought it would. I measured both Primrose and Serenity's boy and I actually got the same numbers. Heart girth of 25 inches, length 20 inches for a grand total of 41 1/2 lbs. She is about 17 or 18 inches at the withers. She wouldn't hold still for that one so it's not an exact measurement. I didn't measure height on the boy.


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## Rancho Draco

I would be interested to see what your does weigh according to the tape. I just did my girls. I'm not sure how much body condition affects the tape measurements but my girls are all between a 2 and 3. According to the tape, Brownie is 95 1/2 lbs, Serenity is 94 1/2 lbs, and Red is just under 105 lbs. They are all around 25" at the withers.


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## Jubillee

If they are 6 months, that weight doesn't seem too bad. I'd probably prefer them more in the 50# range but it's not bad at all. I will see if I recorded our little ones at that age and see how it compares. Of course them having a meat cross in there, maybe the weight should be higher? 

Ok went back and looked, that same doeling back in late June (almost 7 months) was 50# and 20". So I'd say your's are in the normal range unless meat/dairy are supposed to gain faster. 

I'm interested in what Mellon's girl weighs. She looks pretty hefty.


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## MellonFriend

My does are also around 25" at the shoulder Bella, the black doe in my picture, is estimated 115lbs and Prim is 110lbs. Bella's probably a 3.5 for body condition and Prim is probably a 2.5. My kids are easily a 4 on for body condition. I've backed down their grain, but they still are edging toward fat. 😅 I can still pick Murph up so I'll go get my bathroom scale out and see what I can get you guys. I'm seriously curious too.


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## Rancho Draco

Jubillee said:


> If they are 6 months, that weight doesn't seem too bad. I'd probably prefer them more in the 50# range but it's not bad at all. I will see if I recorded our little ones at that age and see how it compares. Of course them having a meat cross in there, maybe the weight should be higher?
> 
> Ok went back and looked, that same doeling back in late June (almost 7 months) was 50# and 20". So I'd say your's are in the normal range unless meat/dairy are supposed to gain faster.
> 
> I'm interested in what Mellon's girl weighs. She looks pretty hefty.


They will just be turning 6 months this weekend so they are about on track with your numbers. Yes, they should be a little heavier I think but nothing like any of the actual meat breeds. This page from Oklahoma State University lists a gain of about 7 pounds a month for Kinders. Breeds of Livestock - Kinder Goats — Breeds of Livestock, Department of Animal Science


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## MellonFriend

Alright, I'm back. Good thing Murphy is still okay with being picked up. She weighs 63lbs. So the weight tape was definitely a bit off for her.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> Alright, I'm back. Good thing Murphy is still okay with being picked up. She weighs 63lbs. So the weight tape was definitely a bit off for her.


That's really interesting. I would have thought the tape would underestimate her weight. I'll be measuring my does again once they get up to a good weight and it will be interesting to see how the numbers stack up. My kids all sit on a firm 3 for body condition. I only feed 2 cups of grain per day per kid (feeding twice a day) and the rest is pasture. I really need to find a scale so I can actually weigh everyone.


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## MellonFriend

Rancho Draco said:


> I only feed 2 cups of grain per day per kid (feeding twice a day) and the rest is pasture


That is exactly what I do, except my kids get access to hay too.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> That is exactly what I do, except my kids get access to hay too.


Do you feed a commercial feed or a homemade mix? I mix mine in batches of a little over 100#. It's 50# alfalfa pellets, 50# goat grain mix from the local mill(oats, corn, sweet feed, and other stuff), 2 scoops of BOSS from a 3# coffee can, and about 2 cups of goat balancer. This is just a mix that the breeder has been using for years and I decided to continue using it until I know enough about nutrition to make educated decisions.


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## MellonFriend

Rancho Draco said:


> Do you feed a commercial feed or a homemade mix? I mix mine in batches of a little over 100#. It's 50# alfalfa pellets, 50# goat grain mix from the local mill(oats, corn, sweet feed, and other stuff), 2 scoops of BOSS from a 3# coffee can, and about 2 cups of goat balancer.


I get a commercial feed for my kids. It's Homefresh 16 from Blue Seal. I've had great success with Blue Seals feeds. I tried some homemade mixes before, but my goats never did as well on them as on the Blue Seal feeds. My milkers get their Premium Dairy Goat Pellet on the stand along with alfalfa pellets, BOSS and Calf Manna. about 2.5 pounds of that mix at each milking.


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## Jubillee

Big girl! Haha. I have had the weigh tape over and underestimate. I assume the body capacity has something to do with it but I'm not sure. I couldn't find any rhyme or reason why some were under, over, or on point. But it's still a rough idea and I'd think that if you are consistently using it, it theoretically should give you an idea if they are going up or staying the same. 

THe one girl above, she is a solid 4 bcs. She was on mom until about 8.5 months old and then alfalfa on top of it. we recently cut the alfalfa but she's still on the border of a 4. Mama's milk does good hahaha. Most of my other kids are a 3. Maybe one is between 2.5-3. She's lower in the heiarchy.


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## Rancho Draco

Jubillee said:


> Big girl! Haha. I have had the weigh tape over and underestimate. I assume the body capacity has something to do with it but I'm not sure. I couldn't find any rhyme or reason why some were under, over, or on point. But it's still a rough idea and I'd think that if you are consistently using it, it theoretically should give you an idea if they are going up or staying the same.
> 
> THe one girl above, she is a solid 4 bcs. She was on mom until about 8.5 months old and then alfalfa on top of it. we recently cut the alfalfa but she's still on the border of a 4. Mama's milk does good hahaha. Most of my other kids are a 3. Maybe one is between 2.5-3. She's lower in the heiarchy.


Do you feed grain at all or just hay and pasture? I'm thinking of switching to a commercial mix and would like to know what others have had success with. It's a lot of work to get a home mix balanced just right. I need to look again at my local feed store but I'm not sure if they carry any commercial mixes or not.


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## K.B.

I think tractor supply (idk if there's one by you) carries the blue seal 16 that MellonFriend was talking about... I use the DuMor goat feed that I get at tsc. Seems to be going well with it, but have only used it for a couple months now. 


https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/blue-seal-home-fresh-16-goat-grow-finish-18dq-50-lb-2420997?cm_mmc=feed-_-GoogleShopping-_-Product-_-2420997&gclid=CjwKCAjw49qKBhAoEiwAHQVTo9Uv3JoXkVlsIEdX6poqD4QErKLgbHL5F0K7XPaTwOnSoVz39_YGHBoC7hoQAvD_BwE


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## Rancho Draco

K.B. said:


> I think tractor supply (idk if there's one by you) carries the blue seal 16 that MellonFriend was talking about... I use the DuMor goat feed that I get at tsc. Seems to be going well with it, but have only used it for a couple months now.
> 
> 
> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/blue-seal-home-fresh-16-goat-grow-finish-18dq-50-lb-2420997?cm_mmc=feed-_-GoogleShopping-_-Product-_-2420997&gclid=CjwKCAjw49qKBhAoEiwAHQVTo9Uv3JoXkVlsIEdX6poqD4QErKLgbHL5F0K7XPaTwOnSoVz39_YGHBoC7hoQAvD_BwE


I have access to Fleet Farm and Tractor Supply but it is about 10-12 minute drive to my local feed store/mill and about 25-30 minutes to the town that has the big stores. I can do it if I have to but I would rather not. The gas prices add up after a while. Do you know what the protein level is in the DuMor?


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## K.B.

I believe it's 16 % it's non medicated, the blue seal is medicated!


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## K.B.

Yeah 16% 


https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/dumor-goat-feed-50-lb-159177499-1?cm_vc=-10005


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## K.B.

Buy maybe see if your local feed supply carries something or would get something for you!
I would rather buy from local as well! But they just don't carry anything .


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## K.B.

I have a tsc credit card, so they ship for free if I order 29$ worth... then I just order 2 bags at once! Or a bag of feed and a bag of alfalfa pellets!


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## Rancho Draco

K.B. said:


> Buy maybe see if your local feed supply carries something or would get something for you!
> I would rather buy from local as well! But they just don't carry anything
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


It looks like I can get the DuMor from Tractor Supply. Fleet Farm carries the Blue Seal. I'm going to look next time I go to the local feed store and see if they have anything. They have been carrying more and more of the Homestead brand of feed lately and I've been feeding it to my rabbits and chickens and I like it. Hopefully they have a goat feed. They have some Purina stuff and I get the Purina goat minerals but I don't know if they have Purina goat feed or not.


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## K.B.

Dumor is made by purina for tractor supply... purina also has another goat feed but I didn't care for it as much... plus the dumor has ammonium chloride in it for the boys..


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## Rancho Draco

I can get the Blue seal for $17.50 a bag and the DuMor for $18.30 a bag.


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## K.B.

Yeah not much of a difference... depends if you want medicated... which you shouldn't feed to lactating does I saw on the description.


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## K.B.

I personally like the dumor, it's not the best but I have noticed one if my girls who was starting to get fish tail has gone back to a normal tail.  I also switched minerals though so the 2 work good together atleast .


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## Rancho Draco

K.B. said:


> I personally like the dumor, it's not the best but I have noticed one if my girls who was starting to get fish tail has gone back to a normal tail.  I also switched minerals though so the 2 work good together atleast .


Do you use the DuMor minerals as well?


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## K.B.

No I use something called Crystal Creek that my local elevator has .. it's about $25 for a 50 lbs bag but I notice they like it and it made a difference so I'll be sticking with that I think! It's supposed to be ok for organic farming made in Wisconsin so somewhat local


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## Rancho Draco

K.B. said:


> No I use something called Crystal Creek that my local elevator has .. it's about $25 for a 50 lbs bag but I notice they like it and it made a difference so I'll be sticking with that I think! It's supposed to be ok for organic farming made in Wisconsin so somewhat local


At least it's in the area!! I tried switching to the Fleet Farm brand minerals a while ago and it was disastrous. Everyone declined rapidly. I think that have really revamped the brand since then so if I really feel the need to get away from Purina at some point I may tentatively try it but I'm not ready to go through that again.

I would like to not feed medicated feed. Maybe feed a bag of it around kidding time but I don't want to develop resistance by feeding it long term. I milk the does anyways and you aren't supposed to drink milk while on medicated feed so that wouldn't work.


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## Rancho Draco

I can order this stuff online from my local tractor supply store. They don't carry it in the store. It's textured rather than a pellet but that's what my goats are used to anyways. $17.30 a bag https://blueseal.com/product/home-fresh-goat-herd-18/


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## K.B.

That seems like a good option... tractor supply has that? I didn't like the purina textured, don't think the goats cared it was food  ... says for lactating does so that's good!


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## K.B.

I noticed it also has ammonium chloride so that would be good for the bucks and wethers if you have any... although higher I protein would be good for kids and expecting or lactating does.


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## Rancho Draco

K.B. said:


> That seems like a good option... tractor supply has that? I didn't like the purina textured, don't think the goats cared it was food  ... says for lactating does so that's good!


You can order it online through them. They don't carry it in the store. I agree. It looks like it has all the things you want in a goat feed. I'm still pretty new to the whole world of goat nutrition though. I think once your goats decide they like pellets or textured feed, it's hard to switch to the other. My goats have always had textured feed though.


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## Rancho Draco

K.B. said:


> I noticed it also has ammonium chloride so that would be good for the bucks and wethers if you have any... although higher I protein would be good for kids and expecting or lactating does.


I have my buck and the buckling kids from this year.


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## K.B.

My girls and boys are NOT picky lol  they eat whatever I throw at them... so far.. right now I'm mixing an allstock, oats and their goat feed 2 scoops goat feed to 1 scoop of each... they love it. We got some free all stock and oats from my uncle so...


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## Rancho Draco

K.B. said:


> My girls and boys are NOT picky lol  they eat whatever I throw at them... so far.. right now I'm mixing an allstock, oats and their goat feed 2 scoops goat feed to 1 scoop of each... they love it. We got some free all stock and oats from my uncle so...


Can't get much better than free! Feed prices just keep going up around here. Hay prices too.


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## K.B.

Rancho Draco said:


> Can't get much better than free! Feed prices just keep going up around here. Hay prices too.


Oh boy I know well we were in a drought here in NW Minnesota idk about your area but hay prices went threw the roof... I figure if I mix some in with their regular goat feed a variety would be ok...


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## Rancho Draco

K.B. said:


> Oh boy I know well we were in a drought here in NW Minnesota idk about your area but hay prices went threw the roof... I figure if I mix some in with their regular goat feed a variety would be ok...


Very severe drought where we are. Hay prices have at least doubled this year and many people are selling half or more of their herds. There just isn't enough hay to make it through the winter around here. The only farmers that are surviving this are those that saved hay from last year. It's a good thing most people got three or four cuttings last year.


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## K.B.

Yes! We are lucky to have my step mom's cousin who pulled threw with some big round bales for us! I prefer the small ones but, I was at the point I'd take whatever... plus I'd rather keep the money in the family anyway!


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## MellonFriend

I don't concern myself with the fact that the blue seal food is medicated. If you are not relying on it for coccidia prevention and already using a different coccidia prevention program there is little danger since the coccidia prevention drugs you can buy are not the same ones as in the feed. 

The blue seal feed has 3.5 percent fat whereas the Dumor feed has 2%. The blue seal feed also has their minerals in a form that is much more absorbable than the Dumor one. I would highly, highly recommend it, if you are able to get it. 😉

I just want to mention is that Blue Seal does sell a non medicated 18% protein feed that I can not get where I am, but maybe you can.


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## Rancho Draco

MellonFriend said:


> I don't concern myself with the fact that the blue seal food is medicated. If you are not relying on it for coccidia prevention and already using a different coccidia prevention program there is little danger since the coccidia prevention drugs you can buy are not the same ones as in the feed.
> 
> The blue seal feed has 3.5 percent fat whereas the Dumor feed has 2%. The blue seal feed also has their minerals in a form that is much more absorbable than the Dumor one. I would highly, highly recommend it, if you are able to get it. 😉
> 
> I just want to mention is that Blue Seal does sell a non medicated 18% protein feed that I can not get where I am, but maybe you can.


I cannot get the unmedicated pellets but can get the unmedicated textured feed through my Tractor Supply Co. They don't have it in store but I can order it through them.








Home Fresh Textured Goat Feed | Blue Seal


Home Fresh Goat Herd 18 is a textured complete grain ration for goats in various life stages. Order your goat feed from Blue Seal today.




blueseal.com


----------



## Jubillee

Rancho Draco said:


> Do you feed grain at all or just hay and pasture? I'm thinking of switching to a commercial mix and would like to know what others have had success with. It's a lot of work to get a home mix balanced just right. I need to look again at my local feed store but I'm not sure if they carry any commercial mixes or not.


I only feed grain to my girls that are in milk. They get oats and boss that are fermented. Otherwise, it's alfalfa hay and coastal hay in the pen. Right now no one is in milk as they are all bred so they are on pasture (straight brush, not grass) and they get a bit of alfalfa pellets. The boys get about 5# alfalfa pellets each a day and coastal hay. 

If I had wethers for butcher, it'd depend on how they were growing out, I may feed a bit of grain or some alfalfa. Actually, when we keep some this year, I intend to keep them on milk for a long time. We use a lambar bucket so I plan to keep it filled with milk (we have a LOT of milk with all the does we will be milking) for at least 5-6 months. All my lambar babies tend to go that long and they look and gain so much better. So I figured I have excess milk anyway, so we'll feed out our wethers as long as possible on that in addition to whatever else. We will have 8-10 does in milk this year so we're going to bottle our wethers, lambs (trying to get more friendly breeding ewes), and maybe a couple of steer calves. In addition to using it for cheese and dairy products lol. Hopefully, it will keep our fridge from overflowing this year.


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## Rancho Draco

Jubillee said:


> I only feed grain to my girls that are in milk. They get oats and boss that are fermented. Otherwise, it's alfalfa hay and coastal hay in the pen. Right now no one is in milk as they are all bred so they are on pasture (straight brush, not grass) and they get a bit of alfalfa pellets. The boys get about 5# alfalfa pellets each a day and coastal hay.
> 
> If I had wethers for butcher, it'd depend on how they were growing out, I may feed a bit of grain or some alfalfa. Actually, when we keep some this year, I intend to keep them on milk for a long time. We use a lambar bucket so I plan to keep it filled with milk (we have a LOT of milk with all the does we will be milking) for at least 5-6 months. All my lambar babies tend to go that long and they look and gain so much better. So I figured I have excess milk anyway, so we'll feed out our wethers as long as possible on that in addition to whatever else. We will have 8-10 does in milk this year so we're going to bottle our wethers, lambs (trying to get more friendly breeding ewes), and maybe a couple of steer calves. In addition to using it for cheese and dairy products lol. Hopefully, it will keep our fridge from overflowing this year.


Wow! Sounds like you will have your hands full! I hope to be drowning in milk next year. It was a bit lean this year. The does are doing their best but the family keeps growing!


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## Lil Boogie

Ive never had Kinders. But, Im thinking about getting me a good Pygmy buck to put with my doe Francine who has great udders and milk stars in her pedigree, and breeding them to see how good the offspring come out. The closest kinder I found to my house was 10 hours away. Its something Id do next year tho.


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## MellonFriend

Lil Boogie said:


> Ive never had Kinders. But, Im thinking about getting me a good Pygmy buck to put with my doe Francine who has great udders and milk stars in her pedigree, and breeding them to see how good the offspring come out. The closest kinder I found to my house was 10 hours away. Its something Id do next year tho.


Make sure you try to find a pygmy that is being bred not just as a pet. It can be hard to kid pygmys now a days that people are using for a purpose, but you want to look for someone that is breeding them for milk _and_ meat.

What part of Georgia are you in, if you don't mind me asking? I know a great kinder breeder in the northern part of the state if you were interested.


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