# Check this out- reactions/ deaths from Colorado Serum Essential 3+T vaccine



## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

__ https://www.facebook.com/cassie.fisher.735/posts/10209177339731256



This was brought to my attention today. I called the company and am waiting on a response from their vet. 
Goats are dying and having respiratory issues with this vaccine. Someone posted that they thought the vaccine was goat only in the past and is now multi-species. Does anyone here know if that is true? Anyone have an old bottle? I was going to vaccinate tonight out of a new bottle I just bought, but I am going to hold off until I get some answers. I also called my own vet and they are going to contact their distributor.

Thanks for any info.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I use Goatvac CDT. I buy it at TSC. Thanks for the heads up. That is just awful.


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## billiejw89 (May 7, 2014)

Very scary! We use covexin 8


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I saw that! There's a breeder someplace that I'm FB friends with and about a month ago she was talking about someone that had issues with the vaccine too but I'm not sure what brand it was.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

I actually used this on all my 10 kids this year, including boosters. I had no cases of any reaction or illness to the vaccine. Hopefully this is something that is not an ongoing common problem, otherwise, I'll have to throw out the remainder and switch! Thanks for the heads up.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Wow, that is terrible.


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## Udder Folks (May 24, 2013)

I used it on all of my kids this year, as well, but used last year's bottles, with the 2018 expiration dates. I wonder if this due to a bad batch of vaccine, versus the vaccine itself? I have all of these new, 2019 expiration date bottles in my fridge waiting for boosters. Guessing I should throw them out?! Scary!


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

That's the brand I have always used in the past, still have my bottle from a couple of years ago, so I have not bought any in 3 years or so.

The bottles I have does not say specifically for goats, it has the dosage for cattle and sheep as well as goats.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

That's very scary! This is the brand I always use. However, I think I'd like to call and talk to the company myself before jumping to conclusions based on a Facebook post. If the vaccine has caused this problem multiple times they should be issuing a recall or making some sort of public statement before the government steps in and forces them to. Bad drug reactions are serious business.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

whats scary is the company is aware of the problem and not pulling it off the shelf..so sad..this is not the first time I have seen posts about the reaction being deadly...

edit Damifino I read your post after I posted LOL..


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree Damfino. I do not have a Facebook account, but I did read some of the comments before they said I had to join or sign in. One poster stated there was a blue line down the kid's back. (An ill kid allegedly from the vaccine, I guess). Maybe they combined some wormer with the CDT shot and it made a bad reaction.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

^^Possibly, but, the vet said he knew exactly what was going on because they'd had a lot of similar reports of the same reaction. That doesn't sound like a bad batch. 

From what I understand, the Colorado serum is the only one that doesn't have to be thrown away after use because of some preservative they put in it. And it's that preservative that's causing the reactions. 
Other types of CD/T (Bar Vac, Goat Vac etc.) don't have that preservative.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I hadn't heard it needed to be thrown out. Yikes. I've had mine for several years, it says it expires in Aug of the year. Should I throw it out?


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

What brand do you have?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Merck


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Colorado Serum is the company. Here is the post in its entirety off facebook:

If you vaccinate your goats for CD&T you might want to read this. I vaccinated all my 4-6 week old kids yesterday evening with Essential 3 + T by Colorado serum. I have used this brand for several years bc I had less injection site reactions and shot knots with this brand. This morning we found our kids all almost dead. They were incoherent like they were passed out drunk. When they tried to get up they stumbled around on weak legs like zombies in a daze. I thought they were all gonna die. I called the number on the bottle and spoke with the veterinarian at the Colorado Serum lab. He knew exactly what was happening. He said there had been many reports in the last 2 years of this same reaction happening including fatalities. He called it a delayed shock. He said it targets the lungs & I could give banamine to help with inflammation & fluid in the lungs caused by the reaction. At this point I was in sheer panic & devastation thinking that I had potentially killed 25 kids with this vaccine. By then I had one dead buck kid and many others that seemed close to death. Some that were not as sick as others were gradually getting worse. I tried giving benadryl on a couple to see if it helped but it didn't seem to make a difference. They slept like rocks most of the day not even getting up when their mothers hunted them down trying to get them to nurse. Some finally seem like they are making improvement. Some are still really sick. The vet requested that I take the dead kid for a necropsy at their expense. I plan to do that in hopes that they fix this or take it off the market. I am posting in hopes it saves someone else's kid crop! Its a terrible, helpless feeling when you have 15 kids laying in front of you on the verge of death bc of something you did to them. Can't help but beat myself up. I hope Mine sleep it off and I don't lose anymore. I won't be giving anymore CDT's. To say the least, this description is a nice, calm version of what went on here today as many of my friends could only imagine. I am mentally and emotionally drained and praying our babies recover. __________________


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

The poster talked with Colorado Serum's representative that is a Vet at Colorado Serum. The person told the goat owner that this had happened alot....

With that said, how could we be doubting the person who posted this? It obviously happened and is happening to lots of people if Colorado Serum is admitting to this.

Money.....is probably why they aren't pulling it. 

But they just lost my business.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Merck


Yeah apparently you are supposed to use the entire contents right after opening...


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

I just was thinking back to when I gave CDT shots last year. We used Colorado Serum. And at the time I had at least two or three of my goats acting very strange. They were lethargic and acting very strange...not wanting to eat.....it took a day or two for them to rebound. I had never had a reaction like that to a vaccine. 

I never thought much about it until now.......I am so glad we didn't loose any of them!!! But we definitely did have a reaction!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

margaret said:


> Yeah apparently you are supposed to use the entire contents right after opening...


Oops :sigh:

I'm pretty sure I only used it for the one batch of kids last year. Haven't used it since. I will be throwing it out!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> I hadn't heard it needed to be thrown out. Yikes. I've had mine for several years, it says it expires in Aug of the year. Should I throw it out?


I have always kept my CDT till expiration and I have used different types over the years. I just don't use them past their expiration.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

"Shake well before using. Store at 35-45oF (2-7oC). Use entire contents when first opened."
Product description for Merck CD/T


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I just saw the post on Facebook and was coming here to see if anyone else saw it. How terrible. I looked at the girls website, she has some amazing looking boers and wins top spots in shows. There are also pictures with the post of the kids laying around lethargic.


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## JohnJ (Feb 13, 2014)

I used goatvac cdt last year, because it doesn't leave lumps. I see that it is made for durvet by colarado serum company. I'm wondering if it might have the same issues?


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

I wouldn't chance using anything by or from Colorado Serum now. I don't trust them, esp with the answer they gave to the gal who posted on facebook. How lame is that.....um yeah we've heard about people having this issue....give them banamine. Really?? Who wants to do business with someone like that?

When people raise goats we raise them to live....and thrive. When someone says that about a reaction that all goats had that were given your vaccine....that is just lame to me.

I am so glad she posted her experience on FB. 
My daughter saw it as I am not a fan of FB. But I am very thankful she saw it and we know that our goats who had reactions....were not an anomaly.

Tami


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Very scary, I used Bar Vac and Goat Vac this year. Not sure if either of those are made by them but I didn't notice any reactions.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

These are my posts today on Facebook and the info I have form the vets at both Colorado Serum and Boehringer:

I spoke with Dr. Randy Barrier (sp?) at Colorado Serum yesterday concerning this situation. Here is his response: In the last 2 years, out of 3 million doses, they have had 12 cases (premises) of ANAPHALACTIC shock from this vaccine. 3 cases (premises) were goats, they died. They do not have any documented reactions other than anaphalaxis. That is a very small number of reactions. He recommended for anyone giving this vaccine to have Banamine and Epinephrine on hand. He said the Banamine seems to help more than the Epinephrine. He recommends giving a preventative dose of Banamine a few hours prior to giving the vaccine to help prevent this reaction. Anyone with a case of reaction that occurred immediately following the administration of this vaccine is asked to call him.

He explained, and I agree, That if one animal in a herd reacts, others will likely react due to shared genetics and environmental issues. They are likely reacting to a protein in the makeup of the vaccine and if one animal is sensitive to that protein, any animals with a similar gene (relatives) will probably react or have a higher incidence of reaction. Same thing with the environment. Animals in similar environments may be more likely to react in similar manner to certain foreign substances. There are clear cases of goats who eat poisonous plants in small amounts daily with no harm, but yet another goat in another location eats one leaf and dies.

Bar Vac says Anaphalactoid reactions may occur, administer epinephrine. So does GoatVac, marketed by Durvet at Tractor Supply. Interestingly , GoatVac is made by Colorado serum and both contain Thimerosal as a preservative. Bar Vac says it's "alum precipitated" which I've come to read means Alum is used as a preservative. I have a call into Boehringer for statistics.

I just talked to Lauren at Boehringer, the maker of Bar Vac. She said they sold 2.5 to 3 million doses last year. They had one adverse or anaphalactic reaction reported each month, so 12 in one year. That's approximately the same rate as the Colorado Serum vaccine. They do not differentiate between species.

In reference to the blue line the OP says"Cassie Fisher Yes I deloused them with ivomec pour on. That is what the blue line on their backs is that can be seen in the pics."


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Levi, more than likely everything is fine. If your goats were going to have a reaction it would have been within 24 hrs.

Julie thank you for sharing this information.

I am still very unsettled in regards to this vaccine though and esp Colorado Serum. It seems like when they sell this product it should have a sheet with it telling people the possible adverse reactions. I had no idea this could be a problem.

I do not agree with the adverse affects being familial....perhaps that can happen in cases. But in my herd the goats who reacted were NOT all related. And to make matters more interesting.....they had not reacted prior to last year. So that also doesn't make sense....unless there was something wrong with the actual vaccine. I am not sure.

The information you shared is very interesting. But I would guess they aren't hearing from people like myself who had goats acting very very strange after their vaccine shots. They are only hearing from people who lost animals or had near death experiences probably. Most people like myself would not call a vaccine company to tell them, 'hey my goats aren't normal after giving your vaccine'. 

If they think it is important people like myself call them......then they should state it either in a warning or something! Good grief! I even bought some vaccines directly from their company a while back and there wasn't anything other than the invoice in the box as I recall.

I am so glad to know about this! And thank you for taking the time to call them. For me, it doesn't settle me. Yes the rates are low of reaction....but those are the ones they actually hear from or know about. My confidence in their company is low.

Tami


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Suzanne don't toss it! Well if it's expired maybe lol but when I first read the bottle I was so upset because I bought a big bottle thinking it would last till it was gone. I called the vet at valleyvet and spoke to him and he said as long as you use a new needle and syringe, straight out of the protective case or slip of plastic it will be fine to keep using. If your using the same needle, or ones you boiled or anything that may contaminate the bottle toss it


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

So sad.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Omgod....I am freaking out!I gave all my adults cdt shots this morning...I now have 4 of five acting off. My bucks are just standing in their shed, one of my does is doing the same and the other doe I actually took a temp (102.9) and she is eating but acting "off" as well. I did also give Valbazen to all but not the one doe who is eating...so pretty sure it's something to do with the CDT shots :/ Not sure if I should do antitoxin??? Or get some benadryl?? I'm freaking out! They are all just standing around mopey  I got mine from TSC...


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

^ the advice from the vaccine vet was to give banamine.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Yes, thanks! I called and talked to them. Apparently there are a lot of goats affected...I gave the banamine to my adults that got the cdt vaccine. He said to wait a few hours and see...if no improvement call a vet :/ I will never use cdt again....if it affected my adults this bad....I cannot imagine how bad the kids get ;(

Just for reference, this is what I have seen a few hours after the shots were given (the cdt) Yawning, listless standing around (think cocci in a kid), shivering, and fast, heavy breathing, off feed, not chewing cud.

They really should have a warning for goat people on there....or maybe deem it not safe for goats. He said it seems the goats are affected more than other species.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

I really think if you're going to give the CDT, do not give any other med/ pharmaceutical/ etc. at the same time. 

It seems after questioning some people, they gave some type of other medication/ wormer/ delousing agent at the same time...


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

loggyacreslivestock said:


> I really think if you're going to give the CDT, do not give any other med/ pharmaceutical/ etc. at the same time.
> 
> It seems after questioning some people, they gave some type of other medication/ wormer/ delousing agent at the same time...


I would say this goes for any brand of vaccine, not just Colorado Serum. This brand is not the only one that can cause reactions. A friend of mine recently had half her goats get an adverse reaction (including severe lameness, large site swellings, and fever) to the Merck Cavalry 9 vaccine.

I like to keep in mind with vaccinating that many people feel kind of sick and lethargic after a tetanus shot. I had one very old goat get sick and sore last year after his annual CD+T booster and decided then and there that he was too old to handle vaccinations any longer. I've had horses be sore and lethargic the next day. I would not generally worry about my goats being a little "off" for a day after their vaccinations, but more severe reactions are definitely a cause for concern. Sometimes it's so much easier to get shots, worming, and de-lousing all done in one fell swoop, but this may not be the best for the animal. If there is a reaction you don't know which chemical caused it or whether it was the combination.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Your right tetanus shots suck! The last one I had, years ago my arm hurt like the devil for days. There was one vaccine my son had, it wasn't tetanus but I can't remember right now what it was and he did not feel well at all after it. 
I also think it's a good idea not to give more then one vaccine at a time because that way you also know what one they are having a reaction to. It's already advised if you are going to give more then one vaccine do it as far away from the others as you can. So like the calfs when we give them theirs one is IM in the neck and the other is SQ and no specific spot so I give the neck and then on the other side in the armpit give the SQ. If I'm throwing the wormer in too I'll go over the ribs on the same side as the IM shot. But these are goats and fairly easy to get your hands back on them for any other vaccines they need


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

So I passed on the facebook post to my local large animal vet. She is a great vet! She called Colorado Serum. They are being inundated with calls from concerned farmers! Hum wonder why? :? lol.

Here is the automated response they gave her:

 "Our CD-T toxoid has had a very good safety track record historically. It is usually a very innocuous vaccine. We have sold ~ 3 million doses in the last 2.5 years, with most of that being used in sheep and goats. In that time frame we have had 12 cases reported of what appears to be anaphylactic-type reactions. While this is a very low incidence percentage, it is still unusual for CD-T toxoid. Every serial of vaccine has to pass purity, potency and safety before it is released and we have even vaccinated our own goats with some of the serials that have been implicated, and we have not been able to repeat these adverse reactions. These reactions are very random and isolated, so it is not a case of a "bad batch" or serial of product. Anaphylaxis is a severe allergic reaction to some inherent protein in the product that usually happens acutely after the injection but can take up to 2 hours or more to develop. Even though we do safety tests on every serial, we do not have a test for anaphylaxis and it is impossible to predict. There are always a variety of factors involved with these type of reactions. Goats, as a species, are also more prone to have these types of adverse reactions and even some breeds more than others, so there may be a genetic pre-disposition as well.

Because anaphylaxis is an unpredictable allergic reaction and impossible to predict, there are warnings on the label. Small ruminant producers and veterinarians should always be prepared for these allergic reactions by having epinephrine and flunixin meglumine (Banamine) on hand whenever injecting biologics or pharmaceuticals in sheep or goats. It is also advisable to watch these animals for a few hours after giving injections. It is also not uncommon when these reactions occur in herd animals, to have it affect an entire group or a large percentage of animals in the herd because they have all had the same pre-sensitizing exposure (priming) to the same or similar protein in their environment that is also represented in the vaccine, the same period of time for sensitivity to develop and the same type of shocking dose in the case of the vaccine. The clinical signs that you can see with goats include respiratory difficulty from acute pulmonary edema with or without swelling of the eyes, muzzle and ears. In mild cases you might just see lethargic behavior and muscle fasciculation's (shaking) shortly after vaccination or even almost immediately.

The case reported in the blog is atypical from the other anaphylactic-type cases reported in that clinical signs weren't noticed until the following morning after vaccination the previous evening. This could have been a more slowly developing anaphylaxis but we are waiting on the post mortem findings from the diagnostic lab on the one dead goat in this case. This could still be anaphylaxis or some other pre-existing, asymptomatic condition that the stress of vaccination exacerbated. We have to wait and see if they can definitively diagnose this.

In the other 11 cases over a 2 year period, these goats developed acute typical anaphylaxis-type clinical signs. Many were treated with Benadryl, Banamine, and/or Dexamethasone and most responded well to these anecdotal treatments, which also would indicate a diagnosis of anaphylaxis. In these other 11 cases, 38 goats had reactions and fortunately only 2 died. The incident rate is below 1 thousandth of 1 percent, but for CD-T toxoid that is still unusually higher than normal.

Thank you for your concern and email.


 Randall J. Berrier, DVM
 Vice President - Technical Services & Business Development
 Colorado Serum Company"


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

This has made me look at vaccinations much closer esp the CD & T. 

Do any of you NOT vaccinate? Ok I know I am probably opening a can of worms. But thought I'd ask! I get why we give Tetanus. But is CD really super important?

The letter that my vet was emailed above sorta made me mad. Because IF they knew this can cause issue esp with GOATS then why not put a warning on the bottle or require a form with warnings be given with it? To me, just to be informed is very important! This is the first time I have heard of serious issues.

The 12 cases they mention above are only the people who actually called them. There are probably hundreds like ourselves who have had reactions that made us sit up and take notice. My goats actually after vaccines are not normally acting strange. But after their CDT shots this past year with colorado serum they DEFINATELY were not normal. I didn't call them. How many like myself are out there?? They don't think about that though probably....or chalk it up as a 'mild reaction'. 

The weird thing is, I have vaccinated with colorado serum every year I think since 2014 since we moved here. And we haven't ever had reactions like this til last year that I ever recall. 

Tami


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The biggest problem is that we vaccinate our animals way way too much.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I think we've used Colorado Serum on our one goat since at least 2004 and never had a reaction until last year, but he was also fourteen years old by then. The only reaction he had was soreness and lethargy for a day--something I'm accustomed to seeing sometimes in older horses vaccinated for tetanus. None of our other 15 goats (including mamas and babies) had that reaction. Some of the kids had minor knots at the injection site for a few days. 

None of my goats vaccinated this year (seven so far) have had any reaction. I've got two more vaccines to give from this bottle next week, and the other two bottles are for the kids and their boosters this summer. I'll have banamine on hand and be keeping a close eye out for any reactions for sure. 

I doubt there are hundreds of folks out there who have had bad reactions but never called. I can't imagine not telling the company if their product made my animals sick. I used Texas Vet Labs' CL vaccine a couple of years ago and had a lot of nasty, lingering injection site abscesses. You can bet I was on the phone with that company! The reason companies put their phone number on the bottle is so people like us can call and harangue them when their product doesn't work like we expect.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

I stopped vaccinating two years ago. I had two goats go downhill quick from enterotoxemia and they had both been vaccinated. My vet at the time said that the C&d types were changing and the vaccines only covered certain strains.
I keep antitoxin on hand just in case, but haven't (knock on wood) had any issues since I stopped vaccinating


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

I agree Jill! We totally vaccinate too much!

Damfino you might be right. But I didn't call. Looking back I should have. But if they have sold millions. Saying that there are hundreds of us out here who never have called isn't that much of a stretch. 
I'm just saying they may have no idea how many of us have had issue....


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Kat....thank you for sharing what you do. And why. Thank you!

I have heard a lot of people don't vaccinate with cdt shots.

I'm leaning towards not doing it anymore. At least the cd part. Then people can choose to vaccinate their animals they buy from me.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I had a doe that was Nubian x boer. Every time she got a CDT, did not matter the brand, her ears swelled up really bad! She was the only goat out hundreds that I have had, that ever did that. I've had kids get lethargic, act like they had colds, etc. but never thought to call and ask the Co. 

The last few years, I kind of quit giving vaccines, too many goats, not enough time. I was just getting ready to do all the kids. I think I will wait and see what is going on with the vaccines!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Not really true about people calling. I never called because of my CL vaccine because I knew It was common. A friend of mine used some kind of vaccine because they were out of the CDT last year and 90% of her herd was off feed and laying around for a few days and she never called, she just talked to her vet and asked what to do. BUT all this is the same for every single vaccine out there not just this company. The only difference is this person went on FB and it spread so now everyone is calling the company, I wonder if the same would be said with other companies as well.
Buck naked a lot of people don't vaccinate, a gal I know in Wyoming that has a large herd doesn't, she says all it did was give her false hope of protection so she doesn't vaccinate and hasn't for years. Then there's one that vaccinate more then every year, they will do so in times of stress, like the ranchers that move them around a lot they are vaccinated before going to a new pasture or being hauled to a new one. 
I don't know it's scary but I myself think that I'll wait till the results come back on the kids before I decide what to do.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Jessica I completely agree regarding people calling vaccine companies. I would think it's probably all vaccine companies. But how this company dealt with it doesn't sit right with me And I think that's why people are such in a uproar about it Or part of the reason. 

Thanks for sharing about people who don't vaccinate. Very interesting!

I hope she shares the results on the kids. 

It's definitely scary. Nobody wants their goats to die. Having them die because of a vaccine.....that's unacceptable!


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## cfish001 (Sep 1, 2015)

Buck Naked Boers said:


> Do any of you NOT vaccinate? Ok I know I am probably opening a can of worms. But thought I'd ask! I get why we give Tetanus. But is CD really super important?
> 
> Tami


I WILL NOT vaccinate any of my goats and NEVER will.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I think there's always a risk with any vaccine though. But I agree if you are not happy with how the company handled this they yes no longer support them! Really the only thing we can ever have a say in anything is on where our money is spent......taxes and fees aside lol but I really can't blame them if they didn't jump on it and start paying the gal money or anything like that. Who knows what happened it's really just her word right now. It would suck if the company went down for this and say the kids had pneumonia and the vaccine just made it worse and that's what killed them. Honestly I don't buy that brand anyways but for no other reason then the one I do buy is simply cheaper. I did use it many years ago and did like the fact I didn't have as many injection site knots but I figure I don't care if they have a little bump so not a big deal


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Well I can tell you mine were yawning, teeth grinding, lethargic, hunched , breathing heavy and staring at nothing. I gave the banamine and saw some improvement after two hours...but won't be satisfied until I see them acting normal tomorrow. This is so weird because I have given this before...same brand. Two years ago...no issues.Same feed, same everything. The vet said there is sometimes a protein present in a herd that causes a reaction? 
Either way, I just feel the company should say that it happens more often in goats than sheep or cattle and to have either epi or banamine on hand for reactions. It should also state the reactions can be delayed a couple of hours. Most people wouldn't think of anaphylactic shock two hours after a shot?! That's typically immediate! But this vet said it is an anaphylactic response just on a different level.

Not mad per say at the company just feel very uninformed


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

But on the label there is a precaution 
https://valleyvet.cvpservice.com/product/view/basic/1101019?u=country&p=msds

Don't get me wrong if your unhappy or have had a issue no don't buy or use it again, I sure wouldn't! But there is a warning on it


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Jessica84 said:


> But on the label there is a precaution
> https://valleyvet.cvpservice.com/product/view/basic/1101019?u=country&p=msds
> 
> Don't get me wrong if your unhappy or have had a issue no don't buy or use it again, I sure wouldn't! But there is a warning on it


Yeah, I saw that...but when I spoke to the vet he said " It seems to happen a lot more with goats than cattle and sheep"...was thinking that maybe add that to the label and a note saying to monitor for a few hours and if reactions occur use banamine or epi...


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

UPDATE:
This is what a person posted today:
https://faribaultveterinaryclinic.wordpress.com/2017/04/19/goat-vaccine-adverse-reaction-response/

It is a response from their own vet concerning the recent Facebook post.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

"In these other 11 cases, 38 goats had reactions and fortunately only 2 died. "

This above quote is from the email my vet got from the serum company. 

But in the link loggyacres gives they state only one death. See below. 

"In fact this is the only reaction of this type that has ever been reported"

Which is not true.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

They're scrambling to cover their butts! I think most people just don't report it.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

This company is scrambling......they know at this point they should have some type of extra warning for goats on their label. They have to know that now......

Thanks for sharing the link loggyacres. It does very little to calm my fears however. 

I was one who never reported the things my herd went through when given the cdt shot from this company. How many more are there out there like myself? Probably plenty. 

Would the company even acknowledge people like myself who did have reactions? Maybe. Maybe not. 

What I do know is this company is obviously scrambling......its always about money. This vaccine has clearly made their company some cash. Regardless what they say.....my trust has been lost in their company and I doubt I'm the only one. 

Bottom line that's what they are worried about.....


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Sorry kat.....didn't see yr postwe think alike apparently! Lol


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Nygoatmom.....how are yr goats this am?
Hope they are ok!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks for asking...they seem to be on the mend. Two have been coughing some since being vaccinated. Keeping a close eye.
One thing that bothers me...they keep saying the one type of vaccine but mine was from TSC manufactured by them for Durvet....seems misleading to only claim the one type.
On a good note, the vet from Colorado Serum Co. called me this morning to check on the goats.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

WARNING: :rant smilie:

So I have to ask why anyone would NOT report severe reactions to a vaccine? How could a responsible goat owner not think to contact their veterinarian and the manufacturer if their goats became severely sick and even died as a result of giving them a certain product??

I understand not reporting minor, harmless reactions. I felt a bit lethargic and "off" for a day after my last tetanus shot and my arm was sore for several days. That makes sense. A vaccine forces your body to launch an immune response to a perceived disease threat. So no, we don't report that type of mild reaction because it's expected and not alarming.

But what I don't understand is this idea that there are "hundreds" of people whose goats have experienced terrible reactions and even death, but until now no one has ever heard about it. I have a real hard time swallowing that. I also have a very hard time bashing a company with a longstanding good reputation because of a single incident that went viral on Facebook. Is the company trying to cover their butts? Of course they are! No one wants to be the target of internet hysteria. We do not have all the information and as yet neither do they. There may be an extenuating circumstance at this one farm that no one knows about.

There's a discussion going on right now on another forum about some goats that had an adverse reaction to Merck's Calvary 9 CD+T. Several goats were severely lame and had to be on banamine for a week. One goat experienced severe swelling behind the leg to the point it was affecting the nerves in his leg, and he was still quite lame two weeks later. Almost a month later he still has a mild limp, and every one of the goats still has a lump at the injection site. The vet isn't sure if they'll ever go away. Interestingly enough, the vet is recommends the owner switch to Colorado Serum. Why did these goats react to this vaccine when others did not? Maybe the vaccine got too warm at some point during shipment, or maybe it was too cold when administered. Who knows.

The point is, problems can and do happen with any and all brands of vaccinations. I think as goat owners it is our responsibility to report any severe reactions that may occur with any product. Manufacturers _want_ to know if their products aren't working as intended. They can't track down and fix a problem they don't know about. If it becomes clear that Colorado Serum's vaccine is not acting the same as it has in the past, they may need to look at their chemical suppliers. If something in their supply chain changed in the last year or two, it could affect their product without ever changing the formula.

Either way, the company can't fix a problem it doesn't know about, so it blows my mind that anyone would bash Colorado Serum for defending their product while at the same time postulating that, "Well, bad reactions happen all the time but no one bothers to report them." If this recent incident in Oklahoma is one of only a tiny handful of severe reactions that the company has ever heard about, then you're darn right they're going to defend their product! Under these circumstances, who wouldn't?

I apologize for the rant, but if you or anyone you know experiences severe or unexpected problems with any product, please call the company! It's usually toll free and you almost always get a real person on the phone immediately. The vets and lab researchers at Colorado Serum are courteous and seem knowledgeable and concerned (I've spoken to them in the past about their CL sheep vaccine and the possibility of eventually getting one for goats). I don't think they have any desire for their product to hurt your animals, and I'm pretty sure the company would issue a recall if they felt their vaccine was unsafe. Most businesses WANT to know if their product is hurting your animals so they can fix it before it comes to a lawsuit or government action. But they can't know about a problem unless you, their customers, tell them when you have a bad experience. Until you start calling them, these incidents remain isolated and there's not enough information to rationalize a change.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Buck naked, I shared the link so people could see what the official response was to this Veterinary office. I'm sorry it didn't ease your mind, but that was not my intent.
I am a medical professional. I remember when my human kids got vaccines, they were always grumpy and cried more often for at least 24 to 48 hours after their vaccinations. I recently got a tetanus shot. It hurt, a lot. It hurt for days. I knew it would. These goats don't know why they have pain when nothing is near them, or currently sticking them. They breathe heavily, and are scared, and maybe even get tired after being so nervous while waiting for the pain to go away. Mine usually lay around for a day or so after vaccinating, and even jump around like something bit them after I've given it.
I think that's pretty normal. 
If however, one started to have difficulty breathing, started drooling excessively, throwing themselves on the ground, I'd give banamine and epinephrine.
Otherwise, I'd soothe them, and give them a treat, just like my kids got stickers at the Dr office.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

The do seem to be scrambling and not giving the same reply/ facts to everyone. As much as I hate it when I see people jump to conclusions because he said she said that right there alone is killing their credibility.
Stephany I'm so happy your goats are still hanging in there. I hope they make a full recovery fast. I can't imagine walking out and seeing all my goats not feeling good


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Damfino:

My animals responses to the CDT vaccine were not horribly adverse/life threatening. But I have a small herd and I know each one of my animals very well in how they respond to things such as vaccines. Their responses were NOT normal and very very odd. But because they were not life threatening or I didn't percieve it that way, I never reported. I never said they were life threatening responses. You must have misunderstood or I didn't explain it well enough.

At the time I gave them their CDT shots I thought after seeing their responses, hummm this is VERY strange and doesn't happen to my animals normally. I had given the vaccine to them by the same company before and never had a response like that. I didn't report it because I thought the company would give me some lame response or my vet would....if it had gotten worse I would have called, you can be sure of that. But it was definately odd enough for me to be quite concerned.

What I was trying to say is....how many others (maybe a few, maybe hundreds, who knows how many there are) are like me and never called but had very strange reactions? I would like to know this as a owner.

I said that because the company is saying that they have had 12 cases reported. But I am sure there have to be others like myself who experienced bad enough reactions to warrant concern. And to me, I would have loved to know that there was a risk *especially with goats, giving this vaccine to. *

Yes of course this company is going to stand up for their serum. If something is in fact wrong with their serum they better figure it out....because you can be sure everyone will be watching their company now. It has 'woke' all of us up to the fact that apparently goats react to CDT differently than other species. This is something I have never heard until now! So it is good that we have this information.

I respect your opinion.....and understand what you are saying.

Tami


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Stephanie: That is great about your goats hanging in there! Good to know that! And that is neat the serum company called you.

No I don't think it is just for one company people are concerned about....Damfino said they are talking about other companies serums on other forums.

Julie: Yes I understand what you are saying. I do appreciate you posting the link. Yes I have experienced the same things with my kids and shots....

All of this information is good to have......

Tami


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

No, I wasn't targeting you specifically. Sorry if I came off that way. I would say any unusual reaction is worth calling the company about, especially if you've given the same vaccine in the past but had a different reaction this time. As I said, they may not have changed their formula but if they changed chemical suppliers or if one of their chemical suppliers changed something about their process, this could affect the quality of the product without there ever being a reason to test it first.



> I didn't report it because I thought the company would give me some lame response or my vet would...


I think it's important not to make this assumption. I've spoken to several different manufacturing labs in regards to CL vaccines and so far I've found the vets and researchers at all of them to be knowledgable, concerned, and helpful. They want to know if people are having unexpected or unusual experiences with their products so they can look into the issue before something horrible happens like at this farm where the goat died. Stuff like that hurts their reputation, their business, and their bottom line. If they were getting the heads-up from a lot of different people that something wasn't right, they may have been able to issue a warning or recall before a tragedy occurred. If people are waiting until disaster strikes to suddenly come out of the woodwork and say the product was faulty all along, we can't very well blame the company for not doing something to prevent it. I'm sure this one incident has shaken them up and I should hope they'll be reviewing their chemical suppliers, their manufacturing process, and even their warning labels. But as yet I'm not willing to crucify them based on a single incident that happened to go viral.

If you had a bad experience with their product, I fully support you changing to something different. I probably would too! But I would also call and let them know why they lost my business.


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## sassykat6181 (Nov 28, 2012)

In my opinion, most people probably do not report it because they think maybe they are the only one who had a bad reaction, or don't even realize it was the vaccine that caused it. I have kids born at all different times, so when I did vaccinate, I was never on a schedule of a large group of kids at one time. Had the OK farm not vaccinated a large group of kids at one time, we might not even be hearing about this

Unfortunately I do not have a lot of faith in pharma companies, animal or human. 
My son had a seizure after receiving the mmr vaccine. He turned blue and lifeless in my husband's arms and was rushed to the e.r. via ambulance. I told the hospital Dr he had had the vaccine and he denied it had anything to do with the seizure.
We had a great pediatrician and he said it could have been related as it was within the window. When my son's next dose was due, our dr agreed to test his titer levels, and my son had full immunity and does not require another dose. 

This country is way over vaccinated.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

So let me ask you guys this....those of you who do not vaccinate with CDT....do you do a tetanus vaccination?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

So who actually witnessed what happened? Did said person know that Ivermectin pour on is not intended for goats and should not be used on them? 
Who here complaining can even tell me the new vaccine protocol?


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Jill, are you talking about the facebook incident with the 25 kids?
I know nothing about that! I just know that mine reacted poorly and didn't before when I used the same product. I don't know the new vaccine protocol but would love to!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The new vaccine research shows that even in animals the vaccines last from five years to a lifetime. They are now recommending a booster every three years rather than every year. .
Veterinarians across the country are switching to this in all species.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Awesome...but what would you do if you were me? My goats didn't do well with it but the banamine helped...would you re-vaccinate in three years?And what about kids?


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Just received this e-mail from one of Colorado Serum Co's vets...

Quote:You can use the concentrated tetanus toxoid vaccine and C&D Antitoxin as needed or use another company's CD-T product. The problem with C & D AT is that we can't keep up with demand and it is on a rolling back order - so you need to get it when you can - well in advance. Or you could just get D Antitoxin, which we have and is not on back order. Most of the time when goats are older than 3 weeks of age with enterotoxemia it is from type D. The other problem with that approach is that once animals show signs of enterotoxemia it is a poor prognosis even with antitoxin and the disease progresses very fast. Your other option is to use a cattle Clostridial 8-way vaccine. We will continue to work on our CD-T to try and figure out why this happens. Anaphylaxis is unpredictable and there are warnings on the label because of that. One other variable is that we may be seeing this more because we are selling a lot more doses in the past 2 or 3 years than ever before.End quote.

So I guess my next question would be....how likely would another companies CD&T be to cause the same reaction? And how often is enterotoxemia really a problem?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I've had one goat die from it in thirty years


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I do kids at weaning, six weeks later, booster at eighteen months, then every three years.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Ok...what brand do you use?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Bar- vac usually


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I just ordered some tetanus antitoxin and some toxoid along with some new cd antitoxin( all mine were expired)...think I'll stay away from the cdt for now...maybe i'll try bar vac on my meat boys in a couple weeks. 
So happy to have made my order for dex and banamine...many thanks Jill!!


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

I've never been told to give the vaccine every three years. Interesting. Wonder if my vet even knows about the new protocol.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If she's a large animal vet, ,probably not. These are being pushed for dogs and cats to begin with and many vets aren't changing with the times. All nineteen veterinary schools are teaching this now though.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

Wow Jill this is very good to know. She wks at a regular vet office but is their large animal vet at the two offices they have. She does see all animals tho I believe. So I will ask her about this. It's good to know! I think humans and animals are wayyy over vaccinated. Just my opinion. 

It's interesting to me that with my two kids, the first I vaccinated like I was supposed to according to shot schedule I think. This child was always sick. My second child I did not vaccinate according to shot schedule and even skipped some I believe. My second child is healthier than anyone in our family! When this child gets sick it isn't for long. It's amazing to me the difference between my two kids. I believe the lack of shots did make a big difference in my second child's immune system. 

Tami


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Stephanie, even your tetanus vaccine can be given at 3 to 5 year intervals. They last about 10 years in the body. 
Many people site the high metabolism for using more often but, that metabolism actually gives a greater response to the vaccines and promotes a longer effective life.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

If a doe has had her CDT at 1 mo. and 2 mo. old, do you still give a booster 3 weeks before she kids? 
Does the initial immunity get passively transferred to each kid in the colostrum for up to 3 years? 
That would be great if it did!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Only passive immunity gets transferred to colostrum. The vaccine at the end of pregnancy just blows up the does immune system. Titers from the vaccine itself don't transfer.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Passive immunity covers the kids as long as they are nursing... The longer the better.


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## Buck Naked Boers (Oct 15, 2012)

That's very interesting!
We normally let our kids nurse for 6 months before weaning and selling them. 
Is that long enough Jill?


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Stephanie, even your tetanus vaccine can be given at 3 to 5 year intervals. They last about 10 years in the body.
> Many people site the high metabolism for using more often but, that metabolism actually gives a greater response to the vaccines and promotes a longer effective life.


Awesome....does tetanus need a booster too?


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

I vaccinated 2 pregnant ND does with this a month before they kidded. (2 months ago now.) Everything was fine, no issues. I had been planning on vaccinating their kids next weekend from the same bottle. I'm nervous to do so now, but on the other hand, my does were fine. If the vaccine was going to harm the kids, wouldn't they have been born with issues (if alive at all) because they were exposed to it in utero? I'd hate to waste the vaccine, and I hate the lumps that they get with other CDT vaccine brands, but of course I'd rather have lumpy kids than dead kids.


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Update- I vaccinated all my remaining kids- 5 of them . I used a bottle from the batch with the affected serial number. I had Epinephrine and Banamine on hand. No one had any reactions of any kind.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Glad they're ok


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I plan on doing the kids but will be giving banamine first...since I know my herd carries the protein.


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