# Stiffness, Dilated Pupils, and Tooth-grinding in 3-month old Kid



## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Hi!

I have a 3 1/2 month old Nubian doeling who seems very unwell.

Yesterday evening I noticed she seemed out of sorts - I couldn't really say WHAT was wrong with her but she was certainly not happy. Throughout today she has definately been feeling ill - she is grinding her teeth very loudly (almost continually), her pupils are fairly dilated, and she seems to be having difficulty moving.

She is standing around with her back slightly hunched looking miserable, and if she goes to move will stumble awkwardly - it looks like she has great difficulty moving... but then once she gets going she is walking smoothly and looking totally normal!

I was wondering if it could be an eyesight problem, as she walked into a few things and just stood there with her nose up against them. I have checked for any symptoms of Pinkeye, but cannot see any redness, cloudiness, or swelling.

She has been off her feed today, but that may not be of any significance as all the rest of our goats have been too - probably due to the hot and humid weather here.

Her stool is one solid lump - it looks the right consistency...but is in one large lump instead of the usual small pellets.

She has been vaccinated against tetanus - she was vaccinated using Covexin 8, which covers the following - diseases caused by Cl. chauvoei, Cl. septicum, Cl. novyi Type B, C. haemolyticum (known elsewhere as Cl. novyi Type D), Cl. tetani and Cl. perfringens Types C & D.

Sorry to be so verbose, but I wanted to supply sufficient information!

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Get her temp. should be between 101.5-103.5...Grinding teeth is gut pain...I would give C D Antitoxin . this is not the same as CD&T...I would also give her Thiamine or Fortified B complex...
Have a fecal done to se if parasites are an issue...
Lower inner eye lids should be bright pink to red, pale eyes indicate anemia
Keeping her hydrated while she gets through this is important...offer electrolytes as well as plain water for her to choose..


Ploppy poop can be too much graze, wet graze or feed...or worm load

what is your feeding program for her??


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Hi! Thank you for your prompt reply. I had (obviously in error) believed that the inner eyelid should be pale pink...which it is.

I am feeding them a little sweet feed morning and evening (mimicking how/when I feed our milking does), and they have free access to fresh hay - and of course free access to fresh water. I am trying to give them a mineral mix, but have not had too much success - if I mix the powder with their feed, they won't eat, so I have followed the alternative option and provided it mixed with water into a paste, but have not seen much evidence of anyone licking it!


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

*Concussion*

P.S. I did wonder if it might be concussion - the dilated pupils and apparent 'confusion' when moving might indicate that, and the does can be pretty rough with the two kids. I know for a fact that they have all been climbing up on our chicken house (about 3 1/2ft high), and she could have been shoved off there...but all this is mere conjecture!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I would really consider dosing her with High level fortified B Complex, she may be showing sign of polio... not every case shows the same symptoms and the B Complex won't hurt her. 
A high dose SQ , I would go with a minimum of 5cc's and if she shows improvements with her ability to walk without a stumble in a relatively short period of time then you'll know to continue the B complex....polio treatment is with B1/Thiamine.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Thanks - I have been doing lots of research today, and she is indeed showing SOME (though not all) symptoms that could be either Thiamine deficiency (goat polio) or Listeriosis. 

I am almost certain she has little to no vision right now as I can pass my hand repeatedly in front of her eyes without her even twitching or blinking. She is still stumbling a little, and has had slightly sticky stool.

I have shut her in the shed as she is getting way too hot led in the sun, and to keep her away from the other goats in case it is Listeria.

I can't get the Penicillin and Thiamin until this evening, but plan to get some into her a.s.a.p. We'll see if that helps. :-/ Poor baby.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes...the thiamine is a must...if she improves after a few doses you will know its polio and not listeriosis ..if she shows no improvement then continue the treatment for listeriosis along with thiamine..
For her anemia....I would get her on Red Cell its 6 cc per 100#..I would double day one then regular dose for a week then once a week after that until you see a good rich color..a fecal would be a good idea to see what worms you are dealing with if any
Keep and eye on her temp as well
I would provide loose mineral out free choice...they will eat it when they need it. Babies dont always eat much at first..I change mine out daily to prevent mold. Polio is often caused by mold so might do a good check about see if there is mold in your feed/ hay/mineral..ect....Best wishes


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Quick update - I just gave her the Thiamine and Penicillin intra-muscular - many thanks to a nursing friend who took care of the 'jabbing' and taught me how it should be done! The kid (her name is Sugar, by the way) seemed a little better this evening anyhow; her pupils seemed less dilated, her breathing was more normal, and she seemed a little more 'herself' - perhaps being kept out of the sun this afternoon helped.

I also bought a thermometer and took her temperature...104.7! So she's definitely running a fever.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

One thing - I noticed her behaving slightly 'off'...appearing unhappy...not LAST evening, but the evening BEFORE, and yesterday evening and today were when she seemed 'ill' - enough to prompt me phoning the vet and searching online for advice. If this was Listeria OR Vit-B deficiency, shouldn't she be dead by now?! Or at the least convulsing...not just seeming unhappy and a little stumbly? What do y'all think?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Its hard to say..Both can kill pretty fast...Her temp is high, could be she began with a touch of Puenomia which kept her from eating well which slowed her rumen and THEN without her producing enough Thiamine began polio symptoms, Goats can spiral very fast....I do recommend giving the shots Sub Q rather than IM..its less painful and with Pen. you do not want to get it in a vein. Its better (imo) to do sub q..always..whether you do IM or SubQ pull back the plunger and check for blood..if you see blood re adjust and try again...no blood=good to go...Pen in the blood can kill a goat..Sub Q just makes it easier to miss the veins. And as I said less painful..
keep her hydrated well...offer green leaves and hay only no feed until she is back to normal..Probiotics will be needed when she is done with antibiotics..I actually give it a few hours after each dose...


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Thanks for all your advice - it is greatly appreciated, especially as I am a complete goat newbie...we have only had our herd (4 milk does and two doelings) for about a month! 

I had my friend (an ER nurse) do the first two injections into the muscle as she knows her stuff, and will continue with the next ones under the skin. I've read that an ideal site is either under the front 'armpit' or in the skin over the ribcage - where would you suggest?

To update you folks on her condition post-injections - I went out to milk about an hour and a half afterwards and had a good look at her. She was still looking a bit stiff-legged but seemed brighter...she had completely stopped grinding her teeth, came over to be petted, and was just looking brighter in general - looking around and giving an air of being interested in life (whereas before she seemed depressed). She chowed down well on her hay and some greenstuffs and 'performed' so I could check her stool...it was slightly sticky still, but pelleted again! Yes!

I let her out with the other goats to see how she would act...she walked round inside the shed in circles a few times (worrying me!) but then went out and trotted smoothly over to see the others - she even went over to the fence to see who was passing by. So things are looking up a bit!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

That is encouraging.. Be sure to do treatment for a full 24 hours After all symptoms have passed..and Pen no less than a full five days. Rib cage is a popular place I like giving where the neck meets the body for sub Q's...there is a lot of loose skin there..so either place..as long as you draw back to be sure there is no blood


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Thank you! Will let you know how she gets on.


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

How much penicillin should I be giving her, and how often? All the sources I am going to are giving different answers...very overwhelming for a newbie! I will call our local vet again tomorrow when they open but it seems she ideally needs another shot before then. 

I have looked at pictures of goats with Listeriosis and can say for sure that Sugar is NOT bending her head/neck to the side in the way that seems indicative of that disease.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

1 cc per 20# twice a day

With the description you gave, Polio seems most likely..the circling..unsteady gate...but each goat will behave a bit different and at different stages of disease
I have a story of my first polio case on my web site..Dozers story..he got very bad because I did not know what I was dealing and my vets weren't sure what was going on either..the writer of Goat-link.com was super helpful and stayed on the phone with to get Dozer through it...it was a long recovery mostly because one complication followed another as he fought so hard to live..
here is my web site if you would like to read about Dozer
happybleatsdairygoats.weebly.com.... click Goat drama and then Dozers story


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Just read Dozer's story - he is one tough boy! 

Thanks for the dosing info...I really do think this is more likely to be Polio than Listeria, as surely she would be really bad by now if it was Lis. Mind you, most stories of Polio sound a whole lot more severe than her! Dozer, for instance - bad diarrhea from the start! Sugar has had no diarrhea, only circled that one time, and this morning is walkin' round and bleating - answering when I call her name! She wouldn't bleat yesterday apart from when she was left alone in the shed and wanted all the other goats. She looks normal...off to get her temp.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yes Dozers began with enterotoxemia from the fresh pasture...but then we had the mold in the feed..and it just kept getting worse...
glad your little girl is on the mend


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

She really is. Went out to take her temp (unsuccessful as my digital thermometer is acting up, so had to come back in and sort that out) but she was SO much more normal...even calling me and following me around! Yay!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

good news!!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good to hear, glad you were given great advice here.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Wonderful that she is doing better!! Remember to keep up the injections for the entire course of treatment... Pen G 2x a day for 5 days and the Thiamine (during the first 24 hours after the initial injection, every 6 hours then 2x a day) 
Her future certainly looks bright :hug:


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

I agree with the large doses of thiamine or B Complex. I would also give her some dexamethasone which will help with inflammation (the pain and blindness.)


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Hi everyone,

It's been a hectic day (very busy!) but just wanted to let you ladies know that Sugar is well on the mend! Her pupils, her temperature, her stool, her movement, her personality coming back...the way she was bucking around when I tried to get ahold of her to take her temperature...she's a much, much happier goat. 

Eating and drinking well. Hooray!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

:thumbup: Congrats! :stars:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

awe..never get tired of hearing good news


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## goatsintheozarks (Aug 1, 2013)

Thank you all so much for all your advice and support - this morning her temperature was 101.7 - the same as her (very vibrant!) sister's.

She was surprisingly pleased to see me, considering I have been jabbing her regularly, and was happily nosing around me and was pretty disappointed when I didn't give her her sweet-feed ration along with the others.I left her stuffing hay into her mouth as though it was the best thing ever. 

I'm glad we were able to catch this so early and save her from getting a bad case. I'm going to keep her on a Vit. B oral gel for a few days after finishing the injections to avoid any relapse and keep her vitamins 'topped up'.

THANK you all for your help!


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