# Not able to put on weight



## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

So my saanen Cloud had babies in April (I think it was april!)

Anyway, she put her all into feeding her babies. I chose to not milk her as her condition was poor.

Cloud has never really recovered from milking her kids.

Her body condition I would rate as emaciated. I've done fecals, and tested for cocci.

She is negative (a few worms here or there but not a large load and she's been treated).

Her eye lids are still pale. Her gums area pale. I would consider her emaciated. I am putting off taking her to the vet as we only really have dog and cat vets, so I'm better off doing most stuff myself.

I can draw blood, do you suggest any blood tests?

One thing that is worrying me, is her front knees are very knobby and creaky.

She has free forage, I have tried a variety of things over the last few months. Grain, extra alfalfa, corn, beet pulp, dairy cow grain, etc etc.

She has access to high protein weeds (partrige pea and other legumes) as well as grass, guava, albezia tree (high protein), etc etc.

Now I KNOW dairy goats are slimmer then other types of goats. I will get a photo tomorrow. She is probably 40 pounds under weight. Seriously.

I do not know what to do at this point.

What blood tests should I run that I can send off myself? My vet charges $120 for a CAE test. Yeah, seriously. I asked when my buckling had a cyst in his neck.

My goats are pretty healthy except for the occasional hoof rot. I've ordered the hoof rot vaccine and am almost done building the foot bath thing suggested.

I give vitamens, loose minerals, grain, alfalfa, orchard grass, beet pulp, etc etc.

I'm getting so frustrated! I feel like no matter what I do or how many hours per day I spend caring for goats, it's one thing after another!

Again, I'll get a photo tomorrow. So skinny! I can about wrap my fingers around her spine.  She eats and poops normal too. Just fyi. lol


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would send off and test for CaE and johnes. Worm load is the number one cause of anemia, I would recheck her fecal three times, a week apart since worms shed eggs in cycles, I would then choose a wormer like ivomec plus or valbazen if needed, red cell 6 cc per 100# daily for a week then once. A week until color returns. Vit. B complex plus or b12 daily. Lots if graze and green leaves, less fruit. Also adding flax and wheat germ to coconut oil making a paste and feed 2 tablespoons once or twice a day will add healthy fat and nice condition to coat. Might also add calf manna to her daily feed..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Can you order Replamin Plus? I would start her on Replamin Plus at 5cc once a week. I would also give her some type of probiotic daily. Along with everything suggested above.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

This?

http://www.amazon.com/REPLAMIN-GEL-...d=1384876750&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=replenamin

I will see if our local feed store has it, if not I can order it.

I, again, have done fecals. I have done fecals on the same schedule that the eggs hatch. lol She does not have a worm problem. I wish she did, as I could just worm her and fix the problem!

Biotracking will do the CAE test, but where do I send off one for Jhones? And is the CAE test from biotracking accurate? She came originally before I bought her from a local lady, from the big dairy here.

I can do replenamin plus with all the other vitamins listed above and with the redcell?

Oh edited to add, she gets LOTS of green forage daily. There is no way to have her eat less fruit though. She lives in a 3 acre guava orchard. It is not possible to put her somewhere else unless I rehome her.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you can get it in the Plus form, it would be better. http://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/details/Replamin-Gel-and-Replamin-Gel-Plus/498-200.html

Buy the gun to go with it. Makes it easy to administer. The cartridge gun that they have on the PBS site above is the one you want. You can have it on 5cc so you can just keep the stuff in the big tube and administer 5cc. My goats love the stuff and I can just hold it out and they will just eat it. Yes you can give it on top of other things.

If you are feeding her grain, you could even put some safflower oil on her grain for added fat.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

When did she wean her kids??? It seems once they get down it takes forever to get back to weight. Have you tried calf manna?? I have a doe that is very thin right now and am trying to get weight on her. I've been feeding some 16% pro. 3% fat feed with a handfull of calf manna and a hand full of calf manna. I could see a difference a week later. but if she weaned the kids not that long ago she might be already putting weight on slowly but you don't see it because you see her every day.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good on the worms...it would be a easy fix if it were but she just wants to keep you on your toes lol.

Biotracking has a good reputation ..Ive uesed them and have been happy with them however they only do pregnancy and CAE, you my as well send to one lab that test for all..Waddl, here is there web sight
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/


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## HerdQueen (Oct 15, 2012)

Hi Dayna,
I have had luck with adding oil to sunflower oil to feed. Also I had an interesting conversation with a big nigerian breeder in New England, and found she top dresses her feed with powdered probiotics everytime she feeds her does, and she said it improved her animals. Maybe that would help her make the most of her feed.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I'll have to write all this down and see how much I can fit into one or two "sessions" per day, preferably one. Cloud doesn't like very many things these days, she's become quite picky. So I may have to force some of this on her.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

You can see how thin she is.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ohh poor baby is thin. Is she drinking well?? She just looks a bit sucked up like not drinking well. Also minerals do you have them out free choice and do you copper bolus?? Her tail hair hardly has any hair on it that I can notice. I do agree with the probiotics as well. Since your already sending blood in I would just gather up a list of feeds that you think will help her out and start there till you know she's clear or not....I still swear by the calf manna FYI lol


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Calf manna molds here really fast no matter how I keep it. I cannot put it in freezer as it would be too expensive to freeze it instead of meat. We're talking molds within days.

She drinks fine. Free choice minerals. I do copper bolus. She actually has plenty hair on her tail. She has a crooked tail so it doesn't show up very well. Her coat is finally in good condition. A couple months ago she lost almost her whole coat and looked bald.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Yes, she looks poor. But as a person who has had Saanens, I'm feeling your pain, not condemning you. I would draw a blood into a red top tube and send it to WADDL. Do the CAE, Johne's and CL. I get frustrated with the forms from WSU, but do the best you can. You might put a light weight cold pack in with the blood. Doing the math on the forms messes with me too. I think it's $10 just to start and then you add in the other tests. It will still be way cheaper than your vet quoted. I would want to rule out those diseases.


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm right there with you Dayna...I've got a buck doing the same thing...worm free, johness free etc. I'm testing for chromic enterotoxemia as there is another form of the CD that can damages the small intestine. The test is expensive...and you can just treat for that one with a round of antoxin....then you revaccinate with the CD/T vaccine as if the animal never had it (giving a booster)...some goats are allergic to the antitoxin so its best to o if you have epinephrine on hand. Any vet should have that. I've been doing the calf manna with no results...if that makes you feel better. Fir meadow GI soother is helping a little...we're not losing weight anymore....I recommend it. We are doing the replamin plus too...but so far not seeing much difference. multimin shot from a vet may be faster... I'll keep you posted if I find anything that helps if you keep me posted! Thanks


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Okay, going to the WADDL site.

One big question, if she has one of these diseases what's the protocol? PTS? I'm not getting anymore goats. I might have some more be born here, but as far as goats go, I'm done. They are so difficult to care for here! And so smart and wonderful. It tears my heart to see bad hooves, poor condition, etc. Most of my goats are in GREAT condition. I'll attach a photo of Nacho Junior (female) in a minute so you can see its not the quality of the feed....

So after reading all this.

Daily:
Red Cell (I think she weighs about 150#) so 9cc's a day for 7 days then once a week? I've given red cell before but never that much or for that long.
B Complex daily
Safflower OIL, (can I add that to some BOSS, Barley and pumpkin seed instead of wheat germ and flax. I have no real access to that other than health food store)

I've been wondering about peanut butter. She LOVES peanut butter. I could use that to give her the B Complex every day right? Is that goat safe? I've used it to give stuff before but never daily.

What about molasses water? I did that after she had kids, should I do that again to get her to drink MORE?

Now if I mixed BOSS, Barley, Pumpkin seed together how much of each to how much daily should I give her? Like half cup of each twice a day? I don't usually measure but I just got a day calendar and I'll start freaking measuring or weighing everything everyday I give her.

Also she loves alfalfa cubes (better than the pellets and better than the hay) how many pounds of that per day should she be getting? As of right now, I toss a bunch on the ground and so I don't _know_ how much she's getting.

I can pull her into the back yard on a leash or something once or twice daily to give her the extra stuff.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Here is my feral goatie daughter you can see almost over weight. Same access to food and forage.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I have some of this, would this probiotic work?

http://www.amazon.com/Nutrition-Now...UTF8&qid=1384891743&sr=8-6&keywords=probiotic


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

oh, i'm sorry Dayna! I hope you figure this out soon. poor girl looks almost like a skeleton! I don't really have much to offer on this, except support. :hug:


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I just looked up the WADDL testing information and it looks like they do a trio test of the exact tests I need run for $22.05 Plus the $10 testing fee?

Caprine/Ovine Biosecurity Screen:
-Small Ruminant Lentivirus (CAE/OPP) (ELISA)
-CL (SHI)
-Johne's (ELISA)


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Also if Cloud tests positive for any of these tests can I assume her daughters will as well? One is fabulous, big and healthy, the other one is much less thrifty and is always getting sick and is just a weak goat.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The wheat germ and flax is fine. You can skip the safflower oil.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> The wheat germ and flax is fine. You can skip the safflower oil.


I don't really have access to wheat germ and flax. I do have access to fresh coconut and mac nut oil. Would mac nut oil or mac nut pulp (left overs from making mac nut oil I feed that to my chickens) work?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I don't know. Goathiker would be a good one to ask.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if you cant get the flax and wheat germ, try the safflower oil...Im not sure either about the Mac nut pulp, But as Karen Said, I bet Goathiker can give some answeres there, I would think a little in mideration would be good...Also, I bet Peanut butter would be fine..I have read where folks are buying it by the drums to feed cows...Be sure however it is just peanuts and maybe salt..no hydrogentated oils added...

On the test, if mom has CAE, kids will have it if she nursed them... with Johnes and I believe the whole herd would have been exposed and there for has a chance to have it as well..CL is contagious through the spread of puss...


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Dayna said:


> This?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/REPLAMIN-GEL-300CC/dp/B003LY073C/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384876750&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=replenamin
> 
> ...


What about liver fluke. Fecal exams are not reliable in testing for fluke infection. You need to blood test for best results.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

The lab was very helpful. I will be drawing blood this weekend.

As far as liver fluke is concerned that's a good call. I can try treating with ivomec plus since that seems to be the current treatment.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Well I just looked and valbazen is used to treat liver fluke, and Cloud has been treated with Valbazen previously (three times in a row) so wouldn't Valbazen have treated the liver fluke if she had that?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes ..it would have taken care of Liver fluke...how long ago was she treated?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

It's been a few months. I went ahead and just treated the whole herd just now with Valbazen. I'll treat again in 10 days, then another 10 days.

We do have liver fluke here. I've found it in rabbits! Since it's so muddy and wet here I'm going to assume they have liver fluke.

I am however going to test Cloud for those three diseases still. I have a bad feeling about the results and it's better to find out now rather than later. When I grabbed her, her body was so creaky and crunchy...


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

Her abdomen looks rather, droopy? I wonder if she doestn have something internal like cancer or something. Do you feel any weird masses in there?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

audrey said:


> Her abdomen looks rather, droopy? I wonder if she doestn have something internal like cancer or something. Do you feel any weird masses in there?


You know, that is one thing I have not even thought to consider. And a good point to bring up.

She has had a droopy belly since I got her, along with a droopy back. Her abdomen is always pretty big and hard so I don't think I'd know if anything felt off.

Something for me to consider if all the tests are negative. If it ends up being something like that, there really is nothing I can do.


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## audrey (Jul 17, 2012)

Its always something I am concerned about with light skinned animals  they are at such a high risk.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

The "creaky body" makes me think selenium deficiency. Has she had a BOSE shot since you've had her?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

She has not. That is not an option.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if BoSe is not avaibable..try Selenium Vit E gel from the TSC or local supply store?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Good idea, I will order some tonight. LOL My hubby is going to get a surprise of boxes at the post office.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Oh and I don't want to sound like some jerk.

BoSe and other things are not options due to a couple factors.

1. Dog and Cat vet in Hilo. I live in Keaau, major road construction so I'm looking at a 45 minute drive into hilo with a jeep wrangler to see a dog and cat vet that charges $100-$120 for a test like CL/CAE. Imgaine what BoSe costs?

2. Large animal vet in Waimea. Waimea is a 2 hour drive from me. He's great, but gas is $4.00 a gallon and I get 16 miles to the gallon. Expensive vet visit. I can pay to have him come out to me, but the minimum is about $200 not counting any vetting. Just to get him here.

Vetting is only an option on stuff dog/cat vets can diagnose and frankly smaller goats and only if I have no other option. I have to be able to do most stuff on my own or euthanize the animal.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I understand the cost...Im our own vet here too...and my vet is only 12 miles away and capable when it comes to goats lol..but money talks! I rather by another bag of feed if I can vet them myself...


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

There are selenium bolus available for sheep and goats. They last 3 years. 25 for $22. scbt.com/animal_health


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

i'm totally in your boat, Dayna. :hug: Except I have mediocre vets that laugh at me and suggestions I've learned on this forum and places like Fiasco Farms.

As for coconut, I give my girls leftover coconut pulp when I make milk at home. they love it. I would think coconut oil would be good as top dress too since it's easier for you to get there than the other oils.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I just saw this thread , Im so sorry Dayna :hug:
I hope you can find the cause of her weight loss and its some thing that can be fixed. Poor baby Cloud


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Let me just say that she's not currently losing weight. She actually looks BETTER than she did a few months ago. She's just not gaining.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

They just got the sample TODAY. Express mail took 6 days. I'll be getting a refund on that..

Regardless they spun it down to see if it was a good sample still and it was! yay!

So I'll have all my test results by the end of the week. The wait will either begin for more tests or over with knowing.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is good that you will know the results soon.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Here is their testing schedule. 

CL: Wednesday
CAE: Thursday
Johne’s: Thursday


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Well Cloud tested negative for all three tests.


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Well, in one way that's really good. Yay for negatives!! But, on the other hand, rules out those for her weight issues.


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## .:Linz:. (Aug 25, 2011)

:leap:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is great!


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

that's great! but....the mystery continues......


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I feel like I should write a goat mystery novel at this point... The case of the missing weight.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

oohh!!! thrilling!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Could she be getting too much protein? That can cause weight loss....


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Negative test results are awesome news!!!...I know goats who suffered Cocci to heavy worm load can have scaring that prevents nutrition from absorbing well...
Have you tried adding Flax seed?


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## hallsthirdacrefarm (Mar 30, 2011)

Dont forget about chronic enterotoxemia either.

We r used to the sudden onset type


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

Dayna said:


> I feel like I should write a goat mystery novel at this point... The case of the missing weight.


I'd read that!


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Well an update.

I've done all the things suggested on this thread plus a lot of other things. A month ago i started a new feed regime for her and we are FINALLY seeing results!

She gets:
Corn oil
Corn
Wal mart all stock feed
calf manna
boss
kelp meal
sweet cob
alfalfa pellets
timothy pellets
probiotic powder

She gets a bowl full of the food at night, aprox a total of 8 cups of feed. And a bit of sweet cob hay in the morning.

She's put on 10 pounds in 4 weeks. So we're finally on the right track. I also am doing a week of red cell once per month for her, with it once a week on the "off" weeks. Her eye lids are FINALLY a medium light pink instead of white/grey.



















She still is my ONLY goat with a weight issue. Everyone else is either perfect or slightly fat. So I don't think it's me, I think it's her. I just wish I could pinpoint what I'm feeding that is making a difference.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Looking good!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

her over all condition looks to have improved..so thats wonderful...keep up the great work


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## Chadwick (Jan 24, 2014)

Yeah, she looks way better, I know she still has a way to go, but seems to be doing the job!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Wow, it may not look like it, but she has put on probably 15-20lbs. She looks a lot better!!!


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I just weighed her again. She started out at 93 (actually less as we didn't weigh her till she'd been on this eating program for a while) and today she is 108.4!

Here she is and a picture of her eyelids. Are they looking good enough?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Eyelids look good. They are probably a 4 on the FAMACHA chart. See she is improving!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

So, do you think it's taken 7lbs of grain for every pound she's gained? (105lbs of grain approx.)? That's how much they say it takes for a goat, just curious.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> Eyelids look good. They are probably a 4 on the FAMACHA chart. See she is improving!


So I should keep up the red cell?


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> So, do you think it's taken 7lbs of grain for every pound she's gained? (105lbs of grain approx.)? That's how much they say it takes for a goat, just curious.


I have no idea and with all the supplements I am just not sure what's helping her put on weight.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You could probably quit the red cell. Just keep an eye on her though and start back up if she lightens up.


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

She was 115 pounds as of yesterday. So still gaining but not as fast even though she's still getting the same feed.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good Job Dayna!!!


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

I thought I would post another update on Cloud. She continues to grain weight!

I think she looks fine now, but I see her everyday. Does she still look thin to you guys or does she look normal weight for a saanen?

Her sister Bonnie is larger boned than her and looks larger, more meatier. But many of the saanens I've seen around here have more of a hollow look like Cloud.



















i think her eyelids are starting to look a bit pale, what do you think?


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

Wow, she's gained quite a bit of covering since the last pics. She still looks like she has about 15-20lbs more to gain, but she looks waaaay better! 
She would score about a high 2-2.5 out of 5 on the body condition score now


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Wow! Can't believe the difference. She looks great! She could still use a little more weight.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree....much better...keep up the great work...


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

What do you guys think of her eyelid coloring now? Does it still look good? I've discontinued the red cell since that last update.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Eyelid color still looks good.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agree...


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## Dayna (Aug 16, 2012)

So I thought I would throw in another photo update of Cloud tonight. She's looking really good.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

She looks fabulous now! :shocked: What a transformation! Great job :thumbup:


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Good job


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