# Wether sire vs. Show sire



## Used2bmimi

I posted these questions on the " ask a judge thread". I haven't received an answer yet, but I thought I'd ask our producers here the same things. I have a small herd of registered boer (full blood and purebred) does. I am probably not going to show much for now, but my children want to show market wethers and a few breeding animals for 4H. SO, our breeding goal is high quality market wethers. Now I have been looking at bucks trying to figure out exactly what I want. I guess I don't really understand what makes a wether sire vs. any quality sire. Could you help me out there? Also, in trying to produce market animals, is crossbreeding common to take advantage of hybrid vigor? Do any of you have experience with open shows like 4H, what is winning in those arenas? I know I have just asked some very complicated questions, but I would appreciate your input.


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## Dani-1995

Wether sires are typically not as large framed and more meat oriented. They tend to be more focused on meat production, carcass cutting ability and meat yield. They're typically not registered and likely corsses or percentages. Show bucks are usually a bigger framed goat that is more focused on pretty and not functionality... they focus on scrotum split, teats and horn set and wethers bucks aren't. Show bucks have to 97% or better to be shown. So really just different goals. 

At the end of the day both inductries should be focused on the end product which is meat production.


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## 20kidsonhill

Wether sires are different at the shoulders. I am really bad at explaining it, but they are more tubular in body shape where a show sire would be blockier looking and often have big thick shoulders. Your wether sires need to have very very smooth shoulders. I can see it in the sires, but I am not good at explaining it. Head is very important on a show sire, but not very important on a wether sire like Dani mentioned.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

In a wether buck you are looking for a buck that's very even over his top and hip, and large bone, and width, and most importantly has a lot of muscle. You want a buck that Has a round ribcage, and a clean chest. I'll post a pic of our wether buck Moose. He's seven months old. If I could change two things about him, it would be to give him a better spring of rib, and more muscle- but the latter could improve as he ages.


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## Dani-1995

You're pretty much looking for a sleeker, cleaner fronted buck for wethers. You want it to tie in clean at his shoulders... I can post pictures of a blocky front and a clean fronted buck if you want


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## Used2bmimi

Yes please Dani-1995 that would be great. I am definitely still trying to develop my eye for this and visuals really help. Thank you all for your comments. When you say Moose needs a better spring of rib, do you mean that you want to see ribs that carry more of a half circle shape, or do you mean he needs more distance between his elbows?


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## Used2bmimi

Oh I am so excited to get to talk about this! Thank you all for taking the time.


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## Tenacross

Dani-1995 said:


> Wether sires are typically not as large framed and more meat oriented. They tend to be more focused on meat production, carcass cutting ability and meat yield. They're typically not registered and likely corsses or percentages. Show bucks are usually a bigger framed goat that is more focused on pretty and not functionality... they focus on scrotum split, teats and horn set and wethers bucks aren't. Show bucks have to 97% or better to be shown. So really just different goals.
> At the end of the day both inductries should be focused on the end product which is meat production.


There seems to be a matter of opinion on "functionality" here.
In theory, goats that win breeding goat shows are quite functional. That
is what the judge is judging. A bad scrotum would be a fault, but a bad
scrotum is not as functional in a breeding animal. Teats are not evaluated
in ABGA on bucks. They should be, but they are not. The horn set has to
do with the breed standard and could be argued to be immaterial to a meat
animal. With all the money now involved in the jackpot wether shows
down south, some big breeding goat breeders are incorporating some 
of the popular wether lines with their programs. All these goats came
from the same place. I predict both worlds could and will benefit from
the other eventually.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Used2bmimi said:


> Yes please Dani-1995 that would be great. I am definitely still trying to develop my eye for this and visuals really help. Thank you all for your comments. When you say Moose needs a better spring of rib, do you mean that you want to see ribs that carry more of a half circle shape, or do you mean he needs more distance between his elbows?


He needs a rounder shape of ribs. Wider, i suppose. He's a little bit flat sided.


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## Dani-1995

Here is a picture of a wether type buck. He has a really clean, tight chest, big boned and even though he's young you can tell he won't be overly large. He wouldn't be ideal for producing show does or bucks but very good for wethers and those type of does. 









Here is a picture of a show buck... He too has the big bones but notice the bigger, deeper chest and the loose skin. He's also a bigger framed goat. I like him for show does or showing but not really for wethers. None the less he's a very nice goat


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## Tenacross

The bottom example Dani shows is TH SOME BODY.
Some Body's sire is GHUT FESTUS.
According to the Able Acres website, GHUT FESTUS sired more
champion wethers in 2007-2008 than any other buck. Including some
big wether shows in Texas.
http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/bucks/boer_goats_SOME_BODY.html
TH SOME BODY is a perfect example of what I was saying about breeding
show breeders incorporating show wether breeding into their programs.


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## 20kidsonhill

We went and looked at a son from Somebody at Ableacres, it was amazing at his farm. We asked for his advice and who he recommended and we purchased a son from Full Proof. We are really excited to ad this young buck to our herd. He said he was a great example of a wether maker buck wtih very very smooth shoulders, he spent a lot of time with us, showing us different bucks and what makes a wether maker buck. 
http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/bucks/boer_goats_FULLPROOF.html


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

20kidsonhill said:


> We went and looked at a son from Somebody at Ableacres, it was amazing at his farm. We asked for his advice and who he recommended and we purchased a son from Full Proof. We are really excited to ad this young buck to our herd. He said he was a great example of a wether maker buck wtih very very smooth shoulders, he spent a lot of time with us, showing us different bucks and what makes a wether maker buck.
> http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/bucks/boer_goats_FULLPROOF.html


Full proof is a great mix of the two. He's awesome. He's straight out of 900 lines. Some people would kill for those genetics.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Here's a good picture of two of my personal favorite wether sires both owned by miller show goats

















And the final picture is of a solid red buck who's the sire to moose, my buck. He's very showy.


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## Dani-1995

I love the wether buck on the stand... I forget who owns him but I love him to peices. 

The one I described as a breeding buck is what we see coming into show rings as far as phenotype. Just because he looks one way doesn't mean he can't throw winning wethers... Its all about looking into pedigree. Personally I like a kelly meat goat, mock livestock style wether.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Dani-1995 said:


> I love the wether buck on the stand... I forget who owns him but I love him to peices.
> 
> The one I described as a breeding buck is what we see coming into show rings as far as phenotype. Just because he looks one way doesn't mean he can't throw winning wethers... Its all about looking into pedigree. Personally I like a kelly meat goat, mock livestock style wether.


He's owned by Garrett Miller. His name is G-Normous. Pictured at only four months old, "G" is sure to be one of the greatest wether producing bucks of his time.


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## Tenacross

20kidsonhill said:


> We went and looked at a son from Somebody at Ableacres, it was amazing at his farm. We asked for his advice and who he recommended and we purchased a son from Full Proof. We are really excited to ad this young buck to our herd. He said he was a great example of a wether maker buck wtih very very smooth shoulders, he spent a lot of time with us, showing us different bucks and what makes a wether maker buck.
> http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/bucks/boer_goats_FULLPROOF.html


Cool.
Did you talk with Gary or Nathan?


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## Tenacross

Hamilton acres, what's the red buck's name?


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## Dani-1995

Oh thats rights! I love miller's wethers too. I get confused by all the show bucks though... too many I want I guess


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## 20kidsonhill

Tenacross said:


> Cool.
> Did you talk with Gary or Nathan?


Gary, he spent several hours with us. What a talker. OMG


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## Tenacross

Dani-1995 said:


> Oh thats rights! I love miller's wethers too. I get confused by all the show bucks though... too many I want I guess


Dani, what do you think of this buck?
http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/bucks/boer_goats-BLINDSIDE.html


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Tenacross said:


> Dani, what do you think of this buck?
> http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/bucks/boer_goats-BLINDSIDE.html


I LOVE Kelly Blindside. It's nearly impossible to find those straight 900 genetics for only $200. Love him.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Tenacross said:


> Hamilton acres, what's the red buck's name?


That's KENZ FIREBALL*ENNOBLED*


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## Tenacross

HamiltonAcresBoers said:


> I LOVE Kelly Blindside. It's nearly impossible to find those straight 900 genetics for only $200. Love him.


There is really not much money in wethers here in the Pacific Northwest, 
so he wouldn't do me much good, but he is cool looking.


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Tenacross said:


> There is really not much money in wethers here in the Pacific Northwest,
> so he wouldn't do me much good, but he is cool looking.


He'd without a doubt produce some killer does as well, and if you're willing to ship, there's a huge demand for 900 bred wethers and does down south.


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## Used2bmimi

Wow ok what an education! I am starting to see some differences in the wether sires. Let me see if I can put it into words. The wether sires have no extra bulk in areas unrelated to meat. Such as the rolls in the neck, loose skin, deep barrel towards the back. You want them smooth and blended front to back with a wide and long top line and plenty of natural muscle. Breed characteristics like the head shape, pigment/color ect. do not carry as much weight as with breeding/show bucks. Does that sound about right so far?


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

Used2bmimi said:


> Wow ok what an education! I am starting to see some differences in the wether sires. Let me see if I can put it into words. The wether sires have no extra bulk in areas unrelated to meat. Such as the rolls in the neck, loose skin, deep barrel towards the back. You want them smooth and blended front to back with a wide and long top line and plenty of natural muscle. Breed characteristics like the head shape, pigment/color ect. do not carry as much weight as with breeding/show bucks. Does that sound about right so far?


Head shape, pigment, and horn shape have no relevance with wether sires because they're meant to breed meat, and not ABGA show does with good breed character.

I know Hummel livestock (bought Kelly) has used heavy influence from the wild Ibex to get their desired look. The does look so interesting. Their faces are long and narrow and their horns go straight back- but they are packed with so much muscle, it's incredible.


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## 20kidsonhill

HamiltonAcresBoers said:


> He'd without a doubt produce some killer does as well, and if you're willing to ship, there's a huge demand for 900 bred wethers and does down south.


Very exciting. Of course the doe is half the package, but her is one of my does we got from Prooved It in 2012. Chloe is a card, to say the least. She is the silliest personality. She was the tamest, but what a pain to halter break and teach to set up this summer for our county fair Boer goat show(not sanctioned), She actually would stomp her feet, bite at your pants and throw a tantrum. But in the end she stood in the show like a big girl. 
Oh, here she is. 
First pic is Chloe, 2nd pic is chloe's rear end and another doe out of Prooved it(from a different dam), we named her Raquel, last picture is Raquel. PIctures are of them about 7 months old. 
We are covering them with a son from Status quo for their first kidding.

So here is the 1000 dollar question, 2000, What should we be looking for in our next buck? I was thinking of a son from Maximum impact, http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/bucks/boer_goats_MaximumImpact.html

We are in the market end of this year into spring 2014. WE are willing to travel up to a 12 hour drive one way.


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## Tenacross

20kidsonhill said:


> We are covering them with a son from Status quo for their first kidding.
> So here is the 1000 dollar question, 2000, What should we be looking for in our next buck? I was thinking of a son from Maximum impact, http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/bucks/boer_goats_MaximumImpact.html
> We are in the market end of this year into spring 2014. WE are willing to travel up to a 12 hour drive one way.


What should you be looking for for the wether market? I have no idea.

Do you have any pics of babies from your Status Quo buck?
I have three does bred AI to Status Quo himself.
I have two other does bred to a son of Status Quo live bred.


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## 20kidsonhill

Tenacross said:


> What should you be looking for for the wether market? I have no idea.
> 
> Do you have any pics of babies from your Status Quo buck?
> I have three does bred AI to Status Quo himself.
> I have two other does bred to a son of Status Quo live bred.


When we brought these two bucks home it was October and most our does were bred last year, so we didn't get much from either one of htem. 
here are a couple pics from Status quo's breeding, first is a doe and buck from a 75% Boer/nubian doe, a nice framed doe, but thin in the legs and chest area. 
First picture has doe in the front from Status quo son(88% Boer), We sold her and she lives in West Viginia

2nd picture is the brother to the doe in the first picture, this buck was sold as a wether and won grand champion Light weight at a fair that had about 100 goats in the show.

3rd picture is a fullblood buck from Status quo son, the doe is a nice thick doe, but nothing too fancy about her. This buckling is growing out pretty nicely. The doe is more old style, thicker and shorter. I need to take new pics, I am hoping to consign him in May.

We have talked about trying to AI, did you do it yourself? We have experience with hogs. LOL


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## Dani-1995

Tenacross said:


> Dani, what do you think of this buck?
> http://www.tctc.com/~amfuture/bucks/boer_goats-BLINDSIDE.html


I like him! You can really see the ibex influence in his face and head. I don't you could ask for a better chest or topline in a buck... or really anything else from his profile view.


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## Dani-1995

Used2bmimi said:


> Wow ok what an education! I am starting to see some differences in the wether sires. Let me see if I can put it into words. The wether sires have no extra bulk in areas unrelated to meat. Such as the rolls in the neck, loose skin, deep barrel towards the back. You want them smooth and blended front to back with a wide and long top line and plenty of natural muscle. Breed characteristics like the head shape, pigment/color ect. do not carry as much weight as with breeding/show bucks. Does that sound about right so far?


Sounds about right to me!


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## Tenacross

20kidsonhill said:


> 3rd picture is a fullblood buck from Status quo son, the doe is a nice thick doe, but nothing too fancy about her. This buckling is growing out pretty nicely. The doe is more old style, thicker and shorter. I need to take new pics, I am hoping to consign him in May.
> We have talked about trying to AI, did you do it yourself? We have experience with hogs. LOL


Thank you. Very nice.
I have a friend that raises Nubians that does the actual AI. I'm going to
give myself some of the credit though because the "when to AI" is just
as important as the actual procedure. I work pretty hard at it.
I bought an older used tank last year and was going to have the nitrogen
guy test it, but I just couldn't justify it when my friend only charges $50
a year to store my straws in her tank and I only have on average about
15 straws. Plus I really don't have reliable help at my house to assist 
while I try and learn the procedure. I'm starting to believe it's not 
rocket science though. I do check mucous with a speculum and light
source. I don't have much trouble seeing a cervix. I'm pretty close to
being there. I need to force myself to take the next step and set up the
tank at my house. I could probably still bring the tank and the doe to
my friends if I get stuck. I still have eight straws of Status Quo. I only
used five this year.


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## DAGills

TH Some body is the perfect example of a buck they can produce winning wethers as well as show stock.

I am planning on AIing one of my TarzanXGeronimo does to TH Some Body to start my wether program while still having fullbloods. I had planned on Breeding to my friends Kelly buck, but I really like Somebody and I want to have Fullbloods.

Powell-Holman is another example of genetics that are good for both.

I have a Powell-Holman doe who was used for wether type breeding, I am planning on AIing her to Powell-Holman Rascal. 2 time national champion.

This is her and rascal.


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## Dani-1995

DAGills, do you co-own that doe with S and R Meat Goats? And is he the owner of the Kelly buck you mentioned? If so then thats who I buy wethers from.


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## DAGills

Dani-1995 said:


> DAGills, do you co-own that doe with S and R Meat Goats? And is he the owner of the Kelly buck you mentioned? If so then thats who I buy wethers from.


Yes I do haha yes he is.

Small world!

He has some awesome goats!
I want to have as many goats as he does.

Where are you from?


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## Dani-1995

I'm from North Carolina... I rode four hours to get 2 wethers from him last year and ended coming home with them and a bottle baby too. My wether actually won four grand champions so we are very excited to get our wethers from Rob this year. He has super nice goats! Thats a nice doe you two own... she should do really good for you.

I wish I had the room for as many as he has. I'd be in goat heaven haha.


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## DAGills

Dani-1995 said:


> I'm from North Carolina... I rode four hours to get 2 wethers from him last year and ended coming home with them and a bottle baby too. My wether actually won four grand champions so we are very excited to get our wethers from Rob this year. He has super nice goats! Thats a nice doe you two own... she should do really good for you.
> 
> I wish I had the room for as many as he has. I'd be in goat heaven haha.


I really like his set up. I live one 250 acres and have about 150 for pasture, but I still feel cramped with as many goats as I have because there are only a handful of fields.
I am planning on cutting one of my 10acre fields into segment like Rob has it.


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## Dani-1995

That sounds like a great idea! Unfortunately I only have two acres to work with. It kind of limits me to number.of goats and right now I am focused on wethers... next year we'll have one doe kidding. Hopefully we can get another doe some time this year and have two kidding in '14. 

I have friends that have more goats and I've been helping with kidding this year.


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## DAGills

Dani-1995 said:


> That sounds like a great idea! Unfortunately I only have two acres to work with. It kind of limits me to number.of goats and right now I am focused on wethers... next year we'll have one doe kidding. Hopefully we can get another doe some time this year and have two kidding in '14.
> 
> I have friends that have more goats and I've been helping with kidding this year.


Well what is Rob's? About 3 acres? I think you could do alot on 2 as long as you planned it out.

I am kidding this month and in March.

Ill have some kids for sale.

If you have a Facebook you can add my farm page "BullRunBoerGoats"


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## Dani-1995

I could have about five does how I want to set it up... my dad needs to cooperate and start building first. 

I've already added your farm page... Danielle Henderson. 

I may be looking for a march born wether for my younger brother... he's six and just started showing so it would be his first wether. I'd definitely be interested to see what you have born in March


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## DAGills

Dani-1995 said:


> I could have about five does how I want to set it up... my dad needs to cooperate and start building first.
> 
> I've already added your farm page... Danielle Henderson.
> 
> I may be looking for a march born wether for my younger brother... he's six and just started showing so it would be his first wether. I'd definitely be interested to see what you have born in March


Haha same problem here. I am able to build, but dad always finds something wrong with my ideas. We were supposed to add some pens to the barn, but he has been sick since break.

The kids in march will be out of my new buck Midas.


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## DAGills

Dani-1995 said:


> I could have about five does how I want to set it up... my dad needs to cooperate and start building first.
> 
> I've already added your farm page... Danielle Henderson.
> 
> I may be looking for a march born wether for my younger brother... he's six and just started showing so it would be his first wether. I'd definitely be interested to see what you have born in March


But I would still recommend Rob haha

I have no proper wether goats, that's why I want to AI with TH Somebody.


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## Dani-1995

I would build but I'm scary with tools and it would probably end up crooked, possibly even collapse. So probably not a good idea for me to try. 

My dad doesn't know anything about goats except what I tell him, so usually my ideas are good with him. Its getting him to actually follow through thats hard. 
Just let me know what he throws. I'd be interested seeing pictures.


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## Dani-1995

I've told Rob to let me know too. My parents are buying it so I dont have much say. I just suggest things too them haha


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## DAGills

Dani-1995 said:


> I've told Rob to let me know too. My parents are buying it so I dont have much say. I just suggest things too them haha


Haha same here. Dad finally picked out some does HE wants to buy for HIMSELF. Shocker! Haha
Hopefully now we will be getting some new show type does.

And I'll keep you posted. I'm sure you know I post on Facebook alot! Haha


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## Dani-1995

I'm waiting for my mom to do the same. She stole my bottle doe once I got her weaned... it was supposed to be my goat. My mom actually took her on a float, in a christmas parade.

Oh yes, but it keeps us updated. Plus, who doesn't like baby goat pics? I post alot about my wethers when I have them.... especially during show season.


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## caprine crazy

I LOVE Th Somebody and CSB Maximum Impact! :drool: I love Able Acres too! I only live like an hour from them.


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## DAGills

Dani-1995 said:


> I'm waiting for my mom to do the same. She stole my bottle doe once I got her weaned... it was supposed to be my goat. My mom actually took her on a float, in a christmas parade.
> 
> Oh yes, but it keeps us updated. Plus, who doesn't like baby goat pics? I post alot about my wethers when I have them.... especially during show season.


Haha I doubt my mom will EVER like an animal. I brought chip in one night when he was a few days old to supplement him before I put him back on his momma. Mom did think he was cute, but didnt like the idea of having him inside lol.


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## Dani-1995

Thats how my dad was. He still doesn't like them a lot but he thinks they're funny and helps us with them. I was telling him the other day how I untangled a kid so the mama could have it and he was like "Why would you put your hands there?". He's pretty funny over animals. 

My mom tries to spoil them... she gives the wethers, who are on strict diets, animal crackers. When ever they would see her outside they'd run up for a treat


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## HamiltonAcresBoers

DAGills said:


> Haha I doubt my mom will EVER like an animal. I brought chip in one night when he was a few days old to supplement him before I put him back on his momma. Mom did think he was cute, but didnt like the idea of having him inside lol.


My mothers exactly the same. She almost died when I brought home my bottle baby last year.


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## Dani-1995

So did mine.... she was mad at first. Then she ended up stealing her from me


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