# Choosing polled vs. horned goats



## Chanceosunshine (Nov 29, 2021)

So, just to reiterate, I'm getting a doe in milk with her doeling and a whether and unrelated buckling. They are in the works now. (Hindsight being 20/20, I probably would have skipped the buckling/whether pair, but I hadn't found this site and read valid reasons why not to when I committed, and I don't commit lightly, so here I am.)

The breeder asked me if I had a preference for polled or horned goats because she wants to pair them to not allow for naturally polled does and bucks to be in my starter herd. 

I like the goats with horns, I like the goats without horns. I don't really have a preference look wise, but I have read that disbudded or polled goats can be safer for children and for each other and that their horns don't get caught up in things. Mostly for the reason that we have 6 little boys, I'm not going to have horned goats. If it were safe for the goats to be mixed I would love that, variety being the spice of life and all that, but I don't want the kids, human or goat, to get hurt if I can help it. Is this correct thinking? Or has too much been made out of horned goat issues?

So, I did tell her that I prefer some polled goats and she is hoping to provide me with a polled buck and disbudded does at this point. I thought I would throw this out here and get some more perspective in case I want to change my mind.

I know there is some controversy regarding the theory that polled plus polled can throw hermaphrodites, but she cited a study that suggested that it's definitely a concern. (It's not necessarily what I'm asking about though.) For reference, here's a quote to the article, "There were 1,362 kids in the 1964 study, so the number was quite significant. In the group where a homozygous polled buck was bred to a heterozygous polled female, 86 kids were male, 28 were female, and 26 were hermaphrodites. Even if you assume that the 26 hermaphrodites were originally females, it is still a lot less than 50% female, leading to the terminator theory. In other words, female embryos died. This turned off most people to the idea of polled goats — even though the studies clearly showed that breeding a polled goat to a horned goat had no such outcomes. In my early years of goat breeding, twice I came across older people who were switching from a larger breed to ND goats, and they were adamantly opposed to having any polled goats."


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## thefarmgirl (Jul 13, 2021)

Ok so for my preference I like polled or disbudded goats.. we do have two horned goats and so far they have not been a problem with their horns except when I was holding are littlest goat one time and they didn’t like that so one of them went to butt her and instead butted meso I would definitely say that Disbudded or polled goats would be best for u since you have 6 lil boys.. and breeding polled to another polled goats I would never do.. as I have heard there can be 1 in an 8 chance of producing a sterile goats as that isn’t very much but still and also like you said multiple causes of goat hermaphroditism..


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## Chanceosunshine (Nov 29, 2021)

thefarmgirl said:


> Ok so for my preference I like polled or disbudded goats.. we do have two horned goats and so far they have not been a problem with their horns except when I was holding are littlest goat one time and they didn’t like that so one of them went to butt her and instead butted meso I would definitely say that Disbudded or polled goats would be best for u since you have 6 lil boys.. and breeding polled to another polled goats I would never do.. as I have heard there can be 1 in an 8 chance of producing a sterile goats as that isn’t very much but still and also like you said multiple causes of goat hermaphroditism..


Ahhh, this is the first time I've seen a ratio for the chance of producing a hermaprhodite! 

Our 6 little boys are grandchildren (all under 4yo), but they live right there and will be very hands on, so they're a huge consideration.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

Definitely get disbudded or polled, especially with little kids. My first goats were horned, and they were sweet as could be, but they were still really hard on fencing, and I had a couple of close calls with their horns near my eyes during hoof trims, etc. Mine were pygmies, so they were the right height to get you in the knee with their horns if they got too close while roughhousing with each other. 

I've had a couple of polled goats in my herd and honestly they're kind of a hassle, especially for a newbie. It's easier to just take all kids to be disbudded instead of having to second guess yourself. (Is that kid polled? Are those little bumps horns or is the kid giraffe polled? The hair swirls on that one are too ambiguous to tell. Maybe give it a few more days and see? Nope, horn buds are definitely coming in but now the person who does your disbudding is on vacation so you're just going to have a horned goat....etc!) Someone also told me once that polled goats' heads aren't shaped as nice and I swear now that's all I see 😆


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

The one horned goat that I had was very destructive. He learned how to pry open doors with his horns and was a bully since no one else would put him in his place (all my does are disbudded). I don't have experience with a horned herd but a mixed herd definitely didn't work for me. He did learn to not stick his head through the fence though because he would panic when he couldn't get back out.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

I agree with what has been said.

I think you should definitely get polled and disbudded goats. And yes, I would not breed two polled goats.

I have one horned ND buck and he is terrible!! I honestly would sell him, but he's my neighbors' goat that I'm housing my buck with (I do all the chores). I have small bruises all over my legs from him (some he didn't even put there on purpose), he is destroying the metal shelter, beats up the fence, and rubs/butts on anything he can. I know most bucks will do all that anyways, but a horned buck is MUCH more destructive. I'm super glad that all my girls are _not_ horned. They are always butting each other to establish the herd order. I also had a wether (thankfully he was disbudded) and he loved to rear up at all little kids. So for me, I will never own a horned goat. Most can be too dangerous IMHO.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Since your goats will be registered, I definitely wouldn't get any horned goats. Nigerian Dwarfs are a dairy breed and horns are really looked down upon on dairy goats.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

You can train horned goats not to be aggressive to you with their horns. But that won't stop them from beating up on each other, your fencing, their housing, etc. You can goat proof housing and fencing, but it is more work. I currently have a mixed herd, but would eventually like to have only disbudded goats. I don't have any polled at the moment. 
I let children play with my one horned doe, and she is good. I don't even worry about it, unless she has very young kids she's still protective of, or the children are totally disrespectful of personal space and really irritating my goats. One fond memory is of a very small girl marching up to Josie (my horned herd queen) putting her tiny hand on Josie's horn, and saying, "this...is a _nice_ doat!"
I don't let children play with my bucks and wether, horned or not. They are just too rowdy. The wether is actually the worst of the lot, as he is currently the dominant one of the group. Even if they aren't aggressive, they can get busy sparring with each other and not notice when a small human is in the line of fire.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

thefarmgirl said:


> I have heard there can be 1 in an 8 chance of producing a sterile goats as that isn’t very much but still and also like you said multiple causes of goat hermaphroditism..


I don't know what the actual chances are, but if it's 1 in 8 that's actually a lot! That gives you high odds of having at least one intersex kid every single year.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

We do polled and disbudded. We also do our own disbudding so its not a terrible concern for us as far as if they are or are not. We have horned sheep and I just got a polled ram this year because I'm sick of them getting stuck in fences and Im tired of my legs getting hurt. They arent being mean...but when they are all together and its feed time and they push...I get hooked with a horn or shoved.

That said...I know plenty herds that do polled to polled with no issue. I've seen some polled to polled that did result in issues. I've seen plenty horned to horned hermies as well. Actually of the majority of hermies I've seen, they've mostly been horned. I saw a study and I will have to dig again, that sited it wasn't polled genes specifically, it was something else. I think everone sites the same one study as well against p to p.

Also, apparently my horned katahdins are rare because everyone has polled. Every other katahdin herd I've seen is 100% polled and they breed polled to polled all the time. Why would it be an issue in goats and not sheep?

Other than my sheep, if we have polled so be it, but its not a focus for us as we disbud anyway even if we have polled animals. (Meaning not everyone comes out polled still)


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## thefarmgirl (Jul 13, 2021)

Ya


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

Jubillee said:


> We do polled and disbudded. We also do our own disbudding so its not a terrible concern for us as far as if they are or are not. We have horned sheep and I just got a polled ram this year because I'm sick of them getting stuck in fences and Im tired of my legs getting hurt. They arent being mean...but when they are all together and its feed time and they push...I get hooked with a horn or shoved.
> 
> That said...I know plenty herds that do polled to polled with no issue. I've seen some polled to polled that did result in issues. I've seen plenty horned to horned hermies as well. Actually of the majority of hermies I've seen, they've mostly been horned. I saw a study and I will have to dig again, that sited it wasn't polled genes specifically, it was something else. I think everone sites the same one study as well against p to p.
> 
> ...


Oh, that's interesting! 
I would agree, if you're going to get serious about raising goats, learn how to do your own disbudding. It's so much less stressful. 
My first two kids were disbudded at the vet. They sedated them. It took a long time for one to come out of the sedation. Plus, they were away from mom for an hour or more. She was, of course, frantic the whole time.
After all that, they still grew scurs, so I took them back to get them burned again.
After that one experience, I decided never again! So I bought a disbudding iron and have done the rest of my kids at home.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

I think it is a no-brainer. You have young kids (children). Chances are nothing bad will happen if you have horned goats but why risk it. Some very serious accidents can happen which would be impossible with hornless goats. I think your worry or stress level will be lower with hornless goats.

And I'm one who only has horned goats and would not want hornless. (no grandkids here)


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

Ours have horns. They are very handy when they refused to go in the milk stand lol. We’ve never had any aggression problems with them towards us, but they are towards each other and other things. I do wish they were polled or disbudded just to know they wouldn’t get stuck or hurt each other. I would definitely recommend getting polled goats if you can, but something to consider, if you already have goats with horns, the polled ones may get bullied.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> Oh, that's interesting!
> I would agree, if you're going to get serious about raising goats, learn how to do your own disbudding. It's so much less stressful.
> My first two kids were disbudded at the vet. They sedated them. It took a long time for one to come out of the sedation. Plus, they were away from mom for an hour or more. She was, of course, frantic the whole time.
> After all that, they still grew scurs, so I took them back to get them burned again.
> After that one experience, I decided never again! So I bought a disbudding iron and have done the rest of my kids at home.


We took them to a friend that was up the road, actually who. got my first goats from. But it's really hard working around someone else's schedule and the timing that is best for disbudding. So she taught us how, actually they taught my husband as I just can't do it. I tried once and nope. I help hold and get them ready and then do the after-care. But yea, SO very much easier to do them ourselves. I can be out there feeling heads and be like, yep, let's set the burner up and get er done. They come in for 10 minutes then go back out with mom and all is good. We've even done it for others now as they can't find anyone around here. We're typically home most of the time anyway so it's easier for ppl to schedule a time.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is personal preference and depends on the breed and situation.

I for one, like the horns ion my boers, it is a natural radiator. Keeps them cool in the summer and warm in the winter.

Does are easier to catch if you want to catch them really quick.

In boers, it is part of their breed character, if you want them to be registered.

Mixing horned with not horned goats can cause the non horned goats to get bullied and hurt in some situations.


Check with the goat association on what is required about horns.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I have horned, scur-ed, pollled and disbudded In my herd.
i started with horns because everything I read at that time said it would help with the Texas heat. So, I have my original 7 with horns. They were taught from day one to “watch the nubbies” and are very careful around us and my grandkids. 
Once I started breeding I disbudded or had them done with mostly success but a few have small scurs that generally break off when they’re playing. I got a polled buck who produces about a 50/50 mix with my does of polled kids. The others are disbudded.
I just bred my polled doe to a horned buck so there’s no problems.

My thoughts are, a mixed herd I’d fine, that said NO goat is 100% safe around kids but to minimize problems go with adisbudded or polled does and a disbudded buck. My grandkids are taught to respect the horns and be calm around the animals at all times and knock wood, we’ve never had an incident.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

My kids were raised around horned goats and we never had any major issues. We had a few bruises when they were helping to do something and basically man handling them but no horror stories to tell of. The kids knew do be aware of the horns.
I have boers so they keep their horns. I have the occasional head in the fence when the hot fence isn’t up, once resulted in death when it was the middle of the night and she got slammed by another goat and broke her neck. For the most part they don’t use their horns on each other too much. I did have 2 lamancha X Boers and they had more of the dairy horns that are like a V and they learned to hook legs. I will never own another dairy or dairy cross with horns.
I seem to always have a few no horned crosses though. Right now I have two alpines and a lamancha X boer and a little commercial boer that the breeder disbudded. The alpines are stand offish and think the rest are the devil with their horns. The lamancha boer is actually high up on the dominate scale and very few mess with her even though they have horns and she doesn’t. The little boer is fairly new and in a group with larger horned does and she does just fine with them. So I think if it’s a timid no horned goat yes they are going to be picked on. 
I think in the end though if I could pick I would go with no horns. 
Also something to think about though is your breed and being able to sell the kids. Even though I don’t show my boers I still stick to no horns because not many boer buyers will buy a boer with no horns. It is vise versa with dairy does.


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## Chanceosunshine (Nov 29, 2021)

Thank you all. I will stay with my original decision to get polled and disbudded goats!


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Chanceosunshine said:


> So, just to reiterate, I'm getting a doe in milk with her doeling and a whether and unrelated buckling. They are in the works now. (Hindsight being 20/20, I probably would have skipped the buckling/whether pair, but I hadn't found this site and read valid reasons why not to when I committed, and I don't commit lightly, so here I am.)


ND goats are capable of reproduction at ridiculously young ages. It would be wise to plan on separate housing and a fenced area without a shared line, unless you can run some strands of hot wire, for the 2 males if you haven't already thought of this aspect of keeping an intact male yet.


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

I always disbud. Here is the one thing at least around here. If you're planning to sale goats to show homes polled are not really desired and makes it a bit harder to sale at least near me. I tend to prefer hornless goats so disbudding was the way for me.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

DDFN said:


> If you're planning to sale goats to show homes polled are not really desired and makes it a bit harder to sale at least near me.


I find that interesting....do you know why people don't prefer polled goats around your area? In my neck of the woods, people tend to charge more for polled goats because they are more sought after here.


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

Honestly don't known their reasoning unless it is linked to the genetic possibilities. I used to have some buying kids I had to show proof of disbudding before they would agree to purchase.


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## Mike at Capra Vista (Nov 30, 2017)

DDFN said:


> Honestly don't known their reasoning unless it is linked to the genetic possibilities. I used to have some buying kids I had to show proof of disbudding before they would agree to purchase.


I think it has a lot to do with the perception that pulled goats leads to sterile goats. Though I have read that that is not as pervasive as thought by many.


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

Mike at Capra Vista said:


> I think it has a lot to do with the perception that pulled goats leads to sterile goats. Though I have read that that is not as pervasive as thought by many.


That's why I am not sure as there has been research proving it's not as likely.


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## Chanceosunshine (Nov 29, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> ND goats are capable of reproduction at ridiculously young ages. It would be wise to plan on separate housing and a fenced area without a shared line, unless you can run some strands of hot wire, for the 2 males if you haven't already thought of this aspect of keeping an intact male yet.


Yes, thank you for the reminder. I'm keeping this in mind as I'm doing my planning. It certainly does complicate matters a bit and I do wish I hadn't jumped the gun on reserving the buckling.

BUT, speaking of the buckling, I read an opinion that it made more sense to buy two bucks rather than a buck/whether pair because it costs the same to feed a buck as a whether and at least you get something from the extra buck. Any thoughts on that? I could get a polled buck and a horned buck if I change my mind.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

A buck is important to bring strength to the conformation weakness of a doe in order to produce more sound offspring. Yes, you could get 2 (bucks) instead, though keep in mind, unless the buck(s) is proven there is only a speculation of the conformational type/size of kids and the strengths he is capable of carrying forward until his kids are born. Seeing what his sire has produced with multiple doe pairings might give some insight into what he could possibly throw depending on the conformational type of doe he would be paired with in the future. Just because a male goat is intact, that does not guarantee he will be of the quality to sire offspring you would find desirable. 

With a wether, he serves a dual purpose of being a companion for both the male and female goat inside of the herd. He could also be useful in detecting heat cycles of the doe without concern of accidental pregnancies. His temperament and disposition would remain steady for the most part due to the fact he wouldn't be under the hormonal influences experienced by breeding capable goat. Also, he could be trusted around children 24/7, 365 days a year. 

Bucks serve a sole purpose of breeding and more than likely a time would come to move him on. With 2 (two) bucks there would be double the rut traits, dispositions, undesirable hormone induced behaviors and possibly extreme competition between them for the status of alpha male and the right to breed.


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## Chanceosunshine (Nov 29, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> A buck is important to bring strength to the conformation weakness of a doe in order to produce more sound offspring. Yes, you could get 2 (bucks) instead, though keep in mind, unless the buck(s) is proven there is only a speculation of the conformational type/size of kids and the strengths he is capable of carrying forward until his kids are born. Seeing what his sire has produced with multiple doe pairings might give some insight into what he could possibly throw depending on the conformational type of doe he would be paired with in the future. Just because a male goat is intact, that does not guarantee he will be of the quality to sire offspring you would find desirable.
> 
> With a wether, he serves a dual purpose of being a companion for both the male and female goat inside of the herd. He could also be useful in detecting heat cycles of the doe without concern of accidental pregnancies. His temperament and disposition would remain steady for the most part due to the fact he wouldn't be under the hormonal influences experienced by breeding capable goat. Also, he could be trusted around children 24/7, 365 days a year.
> 
> Bucks serve a sole purpose of breeding and more than likely a time would come to move him on. With 2 (two) bucks there would be double the rut traits, dispositions, undesirable hormone induced behaviors and possibly extreme competition between them for the status of alpha male and the right to breed.


That's a lot to consider. I have time though. I don't think she will mind if I choose an extra buck instead of a whether.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

I personally would have 2 bucks. Unrelated boys. Then you have 2 lines to go back and forth with. If you keep their daughters, then you have to watch or you get yourself into a genetic bottleneck. For us, in the past, a wether was an unproductive member on the farm. Everyone we have has to contribute in some way, I can't afford pet livestock. Some people can and desire to, and that is perfectly acceptable. Now, we're considering raising any this year that we don't move on as meat. So he could possibly move to that option when you are ready for a second buck as well. 

But just another avenue to explore for your long-term goals.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Jubillee said:


> I personally would have 2 bucks. Unrelated boys. Then you have 2 lines to go back and forth with. If you keep their daughters, then you have to watch or you get yourself into a genetic bottleneck. For us, in the past, a wether was an unproductive member on the farm. Everyone we have has to contribute in some way, I can't afford pet livestock. Some people can and desire to, and that is perfectly acceptable. Now, we're considering raising any this year that we don't move on as meat. So he could possibly move to that option when you are ready for a second buck as well.
> 
> But just another avenue to explore for your long-term goals.


☝ Yes!! I agree.


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## Chanceosunshine (Nov 29, 2021)

Well, I did think I would need a second buck eventually. I may just throw that out there to the breeder.
Thank you!


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

I used to keep 3 unrelated bucks when we bred big time. When we down sized off the bug farm we went down to one with his llama and later LGD as a companion were he could still see the girls but couldn't reach them. By far I prefer the idea of two bucks together instead of a wether. This helps with alternating to allow to keep both bucks and rotate who is bred by who etc.


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## Chanceosunshine (Nov 29, 2021)

DDFN said:


> I used to keep 3 unrelated bucks when we bred big time. When we down sized off the bug farm we went down to one with his llama and later LGD as a companion were he could still see the girls but couldn't reach them. By far I prefer the idea of two bucks together instead of a wether. This helps with alternating to allow to keep both bucks and rotate who is bred by who etc.


Well, I did reach out to the breeder. I’ll update with her answer.


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## Chanceosunshine (Nov 29, 2021)

I now have 2 bucks reserved, providing the does have enough bucklings from different lines to fill the reservation.

The breeder whethers all bucklings from first fresheners, so that limits the chances, but I think there's still a pretty good chance she can fill it.


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## GoatBeeMan (Dec 20, 2021)

When my guy with horns starts playing with me rearing up and then pushing against my hand it’s a blast and he’ll only do it when I wearing gloves but then gets wound up and goes after our little Italian Greyhound who just wants to sniff him. I have to be real careful now when both dog and goats are outside. So it’s it not only two legged kids ya have to worry about. Next one will be disbudded.


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## Chanceosunshine (Nov 29, 2021)

Welcome to TGS, @GoatBeeMan, I'm rather new too. This is a wonderful site full of wise and gracious people!

You make a good point about being cautious with other animals too if you have horned goats. Thanks.


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