# Considering Goat Dairy...Having Second Thoughts: Goat Disease Info



## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Hello All, I've posted my query below to the Dairy Goat Forum and wanted to post here as well as I've been sponging up so much of the great info from the Goat Spot Archives and wanted to ask for advice.

I am new to the forum and have been slowly making my way through the posts and learning a great deal. Thank you to all who take the time to provide such detailed information and for all of the anecdotes. Greatly appreciated. I am in the info gathering stage and considering a goat based micro dairy however all of the info regarding CAE, CL, meningeal worm etc. has given me pause. Most, if not all, goat dairies here in the NE bottle feed from birth. From what I understand none are dam raised. In Vermont I was told the rate of CAE infected goats has risen to nearly 100%. Could this be true? Is it completely naive to imagine a "grass fed" pastured micro dairy with dam raised babies for at least two months or even one month? I have read many anecdotal stories of dams producing more milk with kids than without. 

Most goat dairies seem to keep their animals inside and never on pasture. I was told this was due to meningeal worm. Dairy goats seem so fragile and the forums are full of stories of sick goats who seem to fall ill at the slightest challenge. It seems as though the trend with regard to managing CAE is to remove the babies from the mothers at birth, CAE Prevention.

Although I understand the reasoning, a necessary evil of sorts, it seems counterintuitive and we are creating generation after generation of formula babies who have not been raised by their mothers. This is the life of the commercial dairy animal regardless, I do understand this as well. I read that bottle fed babies are not as disease resistant as their dam raised counterparts. It suggested bottle fed does are known to reject their babies more often than dam raised does. I am wondering about the experiences of the members here. This cannot be a good thing long term nor sustainable and seems an extremely time consuming and laborious process. Is this the future of goat husbandry? There is a theory that this practice of separating the babies at birth is not the solution for creating or maintaining a CAE free herd. 

In addition, all of the goat dairies here keep their herds inside. Babies removed at birth, animals kept inside and fed silage, hay, some grain. The animals never venture outside. How is this normal? It is said this indoor set up is due to the threat of meningeal worm.

I raised horses for twenty years and I've never read of anything quite like what I am reading about goats. I believe in trying to imitate, to the best of one's ability, that particular animal's natural habitat. I raised my horses on pasture, never grained, provided supplements and probiotics. Raised the foals with dams. My animals were never sick until old age. I realize goats are browsers. I've been imagining taking them on walks the way the Rove Goat raisers do in France. Huge horns and all. I am wondering why the Rove goat raisers do not disbud. There are numerous youtube vids of the goats running in to be milked and having no problem navigating machinery with their big horns. 

I am wondering how many members here practice CAE Prevention. This afternoon I decided to abandon my hope for a goat dairy but before I throw in the towel I wanted to reach out and hear your thoughts. 

Thanks again for all of your excellent posts!


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

While it is true that goats are a bit more finicky health wise than other animals, I think it's not as bad as you are seeing on forums. You have to remember that a lot of the people on forums only join and post when a goat is sick, not when they are healthy, so you're not seeing both sides of the equation. 
It is not naive to consider having a dairy where you dam raise the kids for a month or two, nor is it naive to consider grass fed only. Here is a dairy in my state who is grass fed only. http://www.luckyhookfarm.com It is a shame that people keep their goats indoors only, and not at all needful or healthy for the goat.
If you buy goats from a CAE negative herd-and there are a ton of us out there, even if the goats are more expensive-you will not need to pull and bottle feed kids. And no, I have found no correlation between bottle fed kids and those kids growing up and rejecting their kids. I've even had does that have had their kids pulled and never saw them, who gladly took the next doe's kids as her own, or later kidded and raised the kids herself. 
If you do have goats with CAE, one year of pulling the kids and hand raising, and culling the CAE positive goats, and you are CAE clean in a year and can go back to dam raising kids. BTW, kids do not have to be fed formula. You can pasteurize the milk of CAE positive does and raise the kids on that and they will not get CAE. 
I have no experience with MW, but I would assume with preventative care your goats are just fine out on pasture. Especially if you have a few dogs that will keep deer away and thereby limit the exposure to them. CL is nasty, but again, buy from a reputable breeder that has never had it and you'll be fine. Culture any abscesses that your goats get and cull any that are positive ASAP, but CL is pretty unlikely to show up if you get your goats from a good person. 
Horns are optional-tons of dairies leave horns on. You just have to have head gates that they can get into, but that's easy.

I hope you at least do some more research and give goats a chance!


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Thank you Ranger1. It seems the farm you mentioned is in WA state. It is my understanding that the American grasslands dividing the country serve as a natural barrier to the meningeal worm making it's way west. I do not believe it exists in the west and it seems a grass fed dairy would be easier in the west in terms of MW risk. I did learn of two grass fed dairies in Vermont. I had planned to do as you suggested and try and keep the deer away with dogs and keep the snails and slugs down with poultry. We have been trying to figure out how one expands when attempting to create a closed CAE free herd. You can expand from the inside only I would think. I am encouraged by what you said about there being no difference btw bottle and dam raised kids. There is a thread on this forum about others having trouble but I suppose it all depends on numerous factors. You mentioned reputable breeders. I would love to have that magic list as I see so many posts warning: "trust no one". Your post has enabled me to reconsider and I will continue to research. If I can do pastured/grass fed and dam raised then I would like to give it a go. Are there any reputable breeders in the NE who have CAE free animals. I am interested in Nubians/Saanens/Alpines. 

Could you tell me the maximum length of time one can keep the kids with the dam before milk production is compromised or is that a problem or issue at all. Many sources say dam raising increases milk production. Is there an average time? Two months? One month? Longer? This would not be a backyard/homestead set up but a commercial micro dairy. 

Thank you again for your reply.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Yes, MW is not over here, which is why I have no experience with it. I mentioned the grass fed dairy in terms of it being possible nutritionally. 
Closed herds are hard, but possible. Using AI, you can bring in multiple bucks and keep your own does as replacements. 
You are right, “trust no one,” but chances are much better if you find a good breeder that has doesn’t have CAE and has never had CL or Jhones. When you find them, you can request more tests for more diseases, at your own expense, and if they aren’t willing to work with you just leave. Or quarantine and do it yourself. 
I’m not familiar with breeders in your area-maybe others can chime in. 

I don’t know the answers to your questions, because, though I have both dam raised and bottle raised, I have not noticed any difference in milk production from so doing. There are so many variables that determine how milk each individual doe gives in each lactation that I find it hard to believe that they could pin it down to dam raising makes the doe give more milk. Age, ranking in the herd, genetics, weather and hardiness of the individual doe in that weather, lactation number, time of year, number of kids, and possibly even gender of kids all have an influence. 
I would think that milk production would never be comprised with a kid on the doe unless the kid weaned itself and made the doe dry up. Or if the doe gets tired of the big kid butting her udder or its horns jabbing her belly and she weaned it.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

The only thing i can add is to check breeder listings with goat registries to find breeders in your area. In addition to AGDA, there are breed specific registries too. Many are listed by state. 

Where i live, I don't have half the problems everyone else has, so i can't comment on goat fragility. Mine seem to thrive on benign neglect...


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Thank you both. It can be confusing as some reputable sites such as university edu sites says testing is and is not reliable for each of the three diseases mentioned. I have found Onion Creek Ranch to be a wealth of information. Her article archives are excellent and provide clarification in many cases. CAE testing, CL testing etc. It's my understanding her herd was a test herd for the CL vaccine but then I read many, many goat owners will shun those who choose to use the vaccine. It's very confusing for a newbie I must admit. 

Einhorn you really gave me laugh. Thriving on benign neglect. It is this concept that I actually relate to more than any other as that is how it has most often been done. You don't have to coddle animals or teach a goat how to be a goat. Do they really need all of this intervention and why are they dying so easily, within hours etc. It is not difficult to get overwhelmed reading many of these threads with eyes wide as it just seems impossible to believe they are so fragile. Throw interstitial pneumonia and gangrene mastitis in there and you could chase away any newcomer. Pneumonia after significant changes in temperature?? What about their native desert which sees 35F at night and 95+F in the daytime. I have traveled through desert regions and never saw any goats dropping dead from pneumonia or shots of banamine and all sorts of injectable supplements or meds being given. It has confused me. What is happening here that is not happening there? 

Is there a lot of grain feeding of goats happening in the US? Many feed companies are happy to get new goat raisers on packaged grain feed. Grain feeding can complicate animal physiology and I see many posts here acknowledging this issue and warning against feeding too much grain. The increasing prevalence of CAE, CL and Johne's should give anyone pause let alone the rise of BLV/Bovine Leukemia Virus in cattle. All of these are only a few decades old it seems. I'm fully supportive of your practice of Benign Neglect. Less is more in many cases.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

Yes, well i only have two goats, living in a high desert location on a dry lot! So I'm not putting that down to much skill on my part!

There is plenty to learn here b and I'll preparingfor when i DO have a problem.

I do think the difference between goats and horses is the availability of vets. Goat owners have to know this and do it all then selves. Horses are also pretty fragile for their size! 
Compare them to dogs who eat 13 days dead skunks and live to tell the tale!


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Ranger1 said:


> Closed herds are hard, but possible. Using AI, you can bring in multiple bucks and keep your own does as replacements.


Ranger1 could you clarify. "keep your own does as replacements"?

I had read on Onion Creek Ranch the suggestion that dairy breeders seem to breed to CAE positive bucks via AI, choosing productive dairy genetic over CAE free status. That this is one way CAE is maintaining a presence in their herds.


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Einhorn you are really funny. I have personal experience with the 13 dead skunks and begging to get very close to me to tell me the tale. Gallons of tomato juice later I can still remember every detail. Horses do suffer injuries. It's true. A thousand pounds sitting on four tree branches. I am wondering if the desert raisers here have fewer problems than those in wetter regions. The grass is a gift and a curse where MW and parasites are concerned. Do you find you don't have much of a problem with parasites?


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Here’s what’s happening-goats are being coddled. If they wanted to pull that stunt of getting sick in the desert, they’d die and their genetics would be wiped away. Not only that, but, as goats are browsers, when we bring them to America and attempt to turn them into grazers and milk machines, health goes down. 

I mean that doelings that are born go into your milking string so that you don’t have to buy more does. Using AI too, you have a closed herd. 
It’s not true that dairy breeders are choosing high production over CAE status. Unless you are meaning commercial dairies, not actual the actual goat breeders who are producing those genetics. Has it ever been proven that CAE passes through semen? 

We don’t live in a true desert, but with the average rainfall around 16 inches and most of that in the winter, we rarely have parasite problems, besides coccidia in kids. 

Where do you live?


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

I am in the Northeast. What you are saying is what I am coming away with after researching and reading the forums. Coddling as a necessary evil. It's difficult to look at them like dogs but it is similar. Bred for size or for a certain skill set. Dog breeds: Short legs, big body, pushed in muzzles, bulging eyes, floppy ears, etc....difficulty breathing, bloat, etc. Each breed has all sorts of health problems. Mutts rarely do. However, the diseases goat owners are dealing with regularly are worldwide, some shared with cattle. But their ability to handle these diseases is impaired. It is interesting that in Israel the Awassi sheep and Bedouin black goat seem to possess resistance to CAE and I believe CL. I have to look again. It only underlines that we are creating animals which need to be coddled. The Israelis bred a Super Sheep, an Awassi - East Fresian cross and this enabled them to go from an animal/Awassi who produced 40 liters of milk a year to an animal/Awassi/East Fresian cross who now produces 500 liters/year. They call it intensive dairy management. I am assuming the animals are inside being fed hay, silage and grain. For those who tried to use these animals here in the US they found it nearly impossible. Bad feet, lambs not surviving the birth process, etc. I believe this type of breeding is called "improved genetics". Improved for milk production perhaps but not much else.

Ag scientists are putting more effort into researching heritage breeds in an attempt to combat the challenges associated with climate change, understanding that these ancient breeds are hardy, disease resistant, etc. I never wormed my horses after about 4 years. They were always negative on quarterly fecals. They had become resistant over time. The neighboring farm fed wormer laden feed. They developed super worms on their farm/soil and could not sell the farm. The animals were always sick. It was a nightmare.

Your mentioning of the grass fed vs browser issue is the one which bothers me the most. It is why I imagined taking them on "walks" but this is impractical for a large dairy of course. The Rove goat raisers take them on walks daily so I thought, why not. Goats need to be on the move snipping the tops of bushes and the bottoms of tree branches. It is heartbreaking to think of these beautiful, curious, elegant, intelligent and restless animals being stuck in these indoor barns and being turned into kid-less milk machines. I agree. 

As I am new to this I will have to look into your question about the semen/CAE issue. I don't know. It was suggested on Onion Creek Ranch that the AI use of CAE positive bucks is problematic. I just looked at it again. The title of the article is below and can be found on Suzanne's article page. It is worth a read for any newbies like me as she provides a wealth of info. I was intrigued by info in the aforementioned paragraph stating her stance on CAE prevention practices and that taking the kids away from the mothers actually perpetuates the disease. I have no opinion of course just relating what I have read. I have no experience at all. And yes, she seems to mean the goat dairies not buck breeders.

CAE, CL, and JOHNES DISEASE
*Understanding Three Very Misunderstood Diseases
by Suzanne Gasparatto at Onion Creek Ranch
*


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I have raised dairy goats for 35 years or so. Some were bottle fed, some dam raised. I never had a bottle raised doe reject her kids. I also had a cattle dairy, and I never had a problem with the cows rejecting their calves because they were bottle fed.

My bottle fed kids are fed goat milk that has been heat treated/pasteurized, I very seldom use milk replacer. If I do, it is mixed with pasteurized goat milk.

My goat are dry lotted because I do not have a lot of land. They have an outside area to wander in, and they actually get their hay fed to them outside unless the weather is horrible. They can stay in their inside pen or go outside at will, their choice.

While goats seem to be susceptible to worms, it can be managed. In the wild, they lived on browse, so they very seldom came in contact with worms. That is the reason they are susceptible to worms. A well balanced diet goes a long way in keeping a worm load low by strengthening their immune system.

My goats are very healthy over all. Worm loads are low. Very few cases of any bacterial or viral infections. 1 case of mastitis in 35 years, and that doe came with it when I got her.

I feed both native oats and commercial feeds. Hay in my area is poor quality, harvested late because of the wet springs/early summers we have and most fields have not been fertilized. Daily concentrates are a must.

It has never been proven that CAE is passed thru semen. 35 years ago, very little was known about CAE, not that that has changed much. I had + animals in my herd that ran together. None of the negative animals ever became + from being bred to a + animal or by living with + animals.

Most breeders are trying to clear their herds of CAE, CL, and any other diseases passed along. I do not hear of anyone passing over health just to get production. A symptomatic CAE doe can be hampered in the production department due to severe congestion in the udder that causes her to have almost no milk at all. That would certainly cut her from the milking string. It would also keep her from placing in the show ring. A sick doe is a poor producer, would have sickly, and fewer, kids, and would be at risk of dying before, during and after kidding.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Where is the Northeast? Russia is pretty Northeast, but so is New Hampshire. Are you in America?

The only paper I ever read on CAE passing through semen was where they collected semen from some bucks, inoculated it with the CAE virus, and bred a couple of does with it-the does got CAE. However, is CAE even present in semen naturally, and if so, is it active or dead? Were those does ever exposed to CAE in any other form? There were too many questions for me to believe it, and I've heard from too many breeders who have kept a CAE positive buck, quarantined, on the property and bred their does to him, and never had a case of CAE from it.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

As far as browse, we give our goats all the tree trimmings (not stone fruit leaves in the fall though!) And rose shrub cuttings, grass/weeds that we pull. We live on an old orchard so there isn't a lot of toxic browse on our property. Most of our weeds are quite edible: lambs quarters, creeping jenny, amaranth, alfalfa, sunflowers...


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Ranger1 and Lottsagoats thank you. I did find one study below which indicates as you both suggest that it has never been proven/no evidence that CAE is an STD. I do not know if Onion Creek Ranch has more information or why it is suggested that it is an STD in her article, mentioned above.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/emergingissues/downloads/prcaevinfosheet.pdfsays "What routes of transmission are of concern to mature goats?...Milking machines, contaminated hands and hand towels, leaky udders, contaminated tools (such as needles, tattoo tools and dehorners), estrous mucus, prepuce mucus, semen, and saliva and nasal secretions from bucks may be vehicles of transmission, although clear-cut evidence of transmission via these routes has not been established." "Can CAEV be transmitted in semen? CAEV was isolated from parts of the semen of experimentally infected bucks in 1998. However, it must be emphasized that the infection in these bucks was experimental, not natural. One year later in 1999, it was shown that semen from naturally infected bucks can become contaminated with CAEV. At the present time, there is no evidence that bucks transmit the infection to does via semen, but an appropriate level of caution must be taken by producers when using natural or assisted reproduction with semen from seropositive bucks."

Lottsagoats I agree most dairies seem to be trying to establish CAE/CL free herds. A large dairy here in the northeast (United States) is undertaking a complete herd dispersal (many if not most of their animals are CAE+) and replacing with a new herd, CAE negative, from the Western US.

It does seem that goats do better in a drier climate. I did not initially understand the reason they advise raisers not allow their goats to graze the pastures down below 18" and keep them moving so their mouths stay off the ground (parasites) at or above that 18" mark. I hope I am getting that right. 18"?

We know that MW/meningeal worm does not exist in the West. Is there any evidence that CAE or CL is less prevalent in the drier West than wetter Eastern US? Do goats tend to have fewer health issues/problems in the drier West? This seems to be the case. When I had my horses out West they were at their best.

I want to clarify, I mentioned the does who are confined to barns. I meant the large stanchions. The enormous indoor confinement in large open barns/stanchions where the goats spend their days 24/7. This is what they do in Europe. There is a farm in the Netherlands with 7,000 goats. They are all inside. Never outside. Not at all like regular farm barns, pens and shelter.


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Einhorn said:


> As far as browse, we give our goats all the tree trimmings (not stone fruit leaves in the fall though!) And rose shrub cuttings, grass/weeds that we pull. We live on an old orchard so there isn't a lot of toxic browse on our property. Most of our weeds are quite edible: lambs quarters, creeping jenny, amaranth, alfalfa, sunflowers...


This is very interesting Einhorn. I have been looking for a book with information on what I can and cannot give to goats. I have been looking online for a list like this. I would very much like to provide as much browse as possible.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Here's a good list:

https://fiascofarm.com/goats/poisonousplants.htm


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

GoatGotGirl said:


> It does seem that goats do better in a drier climate. I did not initially understand the reason they advise raisers not allow their goats to graze the pastures down below 18" and keep them moving so their mouths stay off the ground (parasites) at or above that 18" mark. I hope I am getting that right. 18"?


I'd always read it's 4 inches, higher if the grass is wet.


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Thank you Suzanne! This is what I was looking for yet didn't see this on the Fias site. I am hoping to incorporate Molly's herbs in my herd if I decide to move forward. Her site is also a great source of info. Thank you for the link. I will have to research most of those poisonous plants. I'm not familiar with most of them or at least the names used on the list.


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Suzanne, in the book Holistic Goat it indicates what you have described: 4", ideally 6". Graze only when grasses and plants are dry. 

Graze only when grasses and plants are dry? Goats cannot eat wet grass?


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

This is a rather expensive book but I think it would help you. I don't use the treatments much but if is a good reference book that I would not be without.
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/natural-goat-care-pat-coleby/1004627070?ean=9780911311662


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

GoatGotGirl said:


> Suzanne, in the book Holistic Goat it indicates what you have described: 4", ideally 6". Graze only when grasses and plants are dry.
> 
> Graze only when grasses and plants are dry? Goats cannot eat wet grass?


Worm eggs can travel higher than the ideal mark of 6 inches if the grass is wet.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I must say this is a very interesting thread. 
I think the big thing is that especially with goats, there is a learning curve for every farm. Once you know what is in your area, how it affects your particular animals, what feed/minerals are beneficial in your area with your hay quality/weather conditions and what works best for them, you're set. Takes time to figure it all out but thanks to this site, it can be easier and there is a lot of support.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I just read through this thread and I've got a couple of thoughts on dam-raising and CAE prevention. I know that commercial dairies pull kids at birth so they can use all the milk. After all, money is the bottom line in a business. However, if your ambitions are for a smaller dairy I don't see any reason why you can't leave the kids with their mothers. It's natural and it's physically, emotionally, and socially healthier for both kids and moms in my opinion.

CAE tests are the way to go with dam-raised kids. I have my does tested before every kidding to be sure they are negative. This gives me and my buyers peace of mind that the kids are negative as well. I have been chewed out by other dairy goat people for dam-raising my kids. They claim that my kids will all end up with CAE, but I think their bottle-raised babies are more likely to get it, and here's why. When a person keeps CAE+ does in their herd, they must either keep the positive milk separate from the negative before feeding to kids, or if they pool the milk they must make sure it is properly pasteurized. One mix-up with the milk or one batch of improperly heated milk will infect the entire kid crop. With dam-raised kids, the disease will be limited to the kids that nurse from the positive doe--usually only her own.

Humans make mistakes, and sometimes people have to leave and trust their milk handling to friends, family, or employees who are not as knowledgeable or invested enough in the goats to be cautious with the milk. I also knew of one family who had a heating element go bad in their pasteurizer and they didn't discover it until they actually put a thermometer in the milk and found out it was not getting hot enough. How long it had been that way was anyone's guess. So for me, seeing "we practice CAE prevention" has become something of a red flag. If they have CAE anywhere in their herd, then I must trust that the humans involved are doing their part to prevent mistakes with the milk handling. Unfortunately, I've heard enough stories by now that I have very little faith in people's ability to pasteurize perfectly _every single time_.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

Damfino, that is a really good point. And I don't have time to raise the kids, and my 1 doe gives plenty of milk, so I have let her do that. Her problem is she won't wean!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

goat girls said:


> This is a rather expensive book but I think it would help you. I don't use the treatments much but if is a good reference book that I would not be without.
> https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/natural-goat-care-pat-coleby/1004627070?ean=9780911311662


I had forgotten about this and wanted it, so thanks for reminding me! I bought the Nook version for 10 bucks lol


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

Goatgotgirl, in answer to you question about parasites b we do have them, most are fly bourne for me. I don't have standing water, but i live near it, so mosquitos -and all they vector for- are also a problem. We have skunks too, so rabies is a real possibility. We also have (delightful!) Endemic Bubonic plague and haunta viruses, both spread by rodents and pets. So it's not exactly a pest free paradise, but we don't get mw or a lot of foot rot.


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

goatgirls thank you for the Pat Coleby Natural Goat Care book reference. Her book seems to be one of the holy grails of goat raising. I came upon the book when trying to better understand what I would need for free choice minerals, etc. Her book was mentioned in this great blog post:

http://www.5acresandadream.com/2015/01/tweaking-goat-minerals.html

This helped me a great deal and I am wondering if anyone has any tidbits to add to it. I am shown time and again through anecdotes how grain disorders the flora and function of grazers/browzers.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Einhorn said:


> Damfino, that is a really good point. And I don't have time to raise the kids, and my 1 doe gives plenty of milk, so I have let her do that. Her problem is she won't wean!


Many does won't wean their kids, and most kids won't allow their moms to wean them either! Babies get big fast and then they get very demanding! Usually mamas start trying to kick the buck kids off by about 2 1/2 months. By then their horns are getting big enough to poke mom in the belly and she doesn't like it, so she starts unsuccessfully trying to kick them away. They also start to get randy and the mamas don't like that either. When I begin to see signs of "mama fatigue" I pull the buck kids at night. I continue to let them nurse while mom is on the stanchion until they are three months old and then I wean them completely. Doe kids usually stay with their moms a little longer. Some mamas will wean them at around 5 months or so, but others will keep right on nursing until that kid is physically removed. One of my doelings was still nursing after she was bigger than her mom, and she had to lie on her belly and turn her head completely upside-down to reach the teats!


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

That sounds like my youngin Emma! She was a butterball!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Damfino said:


> . One of my doelings was still nursing after she was bigger than her mom, and she had to lie on her belly and turn her head completely upside-down to reach the teats!


 Seriously!!


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Yes, that doeling nursed until she was around ten months old. She was bigger than her mom by about six months, so it was a comical sight for a long time. I think the kid (Tigerlily) was ready to wean herself, but her mom would stand there spraddle-legged and call to her to come nurse. Tigerlily was this doe's first baby and she had her at an older-than-average age for a first-timer, so she was a classic helicopter mom. I kept them together for a long time because the mother got so distressed when I took Tigerlily away. The poor doe was already at the bottom of the pecking order and had no friends. But when the mom was almost due with her second kid, I decided enough was enough and I physically separated the pair so mom could dry up and start making colostrum. The doe has been better with her subsequent kids and now knows how to wean them.

Back on topic, I meant to say earlier that I've never heard of CAE being passed through the buck other than old rumors that have since been disproved by experience. I also read some old speculation that said it might be spread through sharing a water trough, but this has never been proven true either. CAE is spread by ingesting infected milk or through blood-to-blood contact. That said, I would not want to keep a CAE+ animal in my herd even if it were a male. Seeing the bloody heads on my two bucks this morning after they bashed heads last night and knocked their scurs off is enough to convince me that while it's not easy for adult goats to transfer CAE to each other, it is certainly possible.


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Damfino I really appreciate your post as it is in line with where I am going and where I need to be able to go if I am to do this at all. I cannot separate the kids from their mothers in order to follow a strict CAE prevention program. It is not worth it to me to get into this if I have to interfere with their most basic of goat life events and behavior. That of mothering and being mothered. To create successive generations of kid-less and motherless goats seems rather pointless to me. Why are we doing this? For goat cheese? So we can have goats? I mean no offense to anyone by expressing my thoughts. It merely represents my own struggles with the reality of this devastating disease and the practices involved in attempting to manage it. I continue to research this and imagine that there has to be another way, a better way. Years ago I had read of the work of a South African vet working to better understand the how Bovine Tuberculosis is contracted and spread. It is not considered a deadly disease in buffalo in the way CAE is for goats.

http://www.krugerpark.co.za/krugerpark-times-2-21-buffalo-tb-21399.html

There were others also working on BTB and Hoof and Mouth disease and the common denominator in every study was the role stress and immune function/immunity played in whether or not an animal got sick. This is pertinent to CAE as well. It is not whether or not the animal is carrying the "pathogen" but rather whether or not they get sick or manifest "disease". How well can they manage the disease without succumbing to the disease or becoming symptomatic from this pathogen. Just because they harbor the pathogen does not mean they will develop the disease. It is like Pasteur said, the microbe is nothing, the terrain is everything. But this line of thinking, although true, can also become an idealist fantasy with no real world application. I have read many posts on this forum from goat raisers who say, emphatically, that their dam raised kids are healthier and more robust than the bottle fed babies. Physicians speak similarly about humans babies breastfed rather than bottle fed. The breast is always best.

CAE is not an easy problem to solve and CAE Prevention programs are the solution in large operations and even in small backyard environments. I believe there has to be a better way and when I read that paragraph in Suzanne Gasparotto's article about CAE on Onion Creek Ranch, that CAE is not manageable in any reasonable manner, I have to agree. At least in the long term, for the future of goat raising. As goat raising grows in popularity there has to be a viable alternative means of maintenance and prevention whether through a nutritional protocol, herbal protocol, etc. CAE Prevention as it is currently practiced is unnatural for all involved but has evolved as a necessary evil to prevent what may or may not materialize and of course if it does it is indeed a horrible disease.

Damfino thank you for your post. It has been helpful to see that there are raisers who are dam raising successfully and I have retrieved my micro goat dairy aspirations from the trash can.


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

I think of CAE much like hypp in horses and other problems in animals, humans have to put group welfare over individual gain, and keep affected animals from spreading the problem, usually by not profiting from those animals. But this is hard and costly, and it requires education and understanding by both the owner of theanimal and potential buyers/breeders. 

It's hard but it can be done.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Going to make this short. I've had a herd for 10 years - testing the whole herd for CAE/ Johnes each year, bucks included. I choose to dam raise most of my kids - I will pull kids that are in a kidding of more than 2. I've never had any CAE + results - dam or bottle fed. CAE is not hyp - but if testing is done, and you don't have introductions of new animals or exposure to other animals (shows, etc) I believe you can dam raise CAE - kids just fine. I do test every year and make sure I don't have anyone who tests +. If I did I would immediately cull.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

goatblessings said:


> but if testing is done, and you don't have introductions of new animals or exposure to other animals (shows, etc) I believe you can dam raise CAE - kids just fine.


I'd like to take exception to the part about introducing new animals or going to shows. CAE spreads easily to kids through milk from positive does, but it does not spread easily through other means. CL and other diseases that can survive in open air pose much greater risks in show grounds, but precautions can be taken when going to shows, such as disinfecting stalls before putting your goats into them.

I like to keep a small herd, so in order to keep my genetics fresh (and improve them!) I buy new animals (tested free from disease of course) almost every year. I've also done driveway breedings when I couldn't keep a buck of my own, and I've offered my bucks for driveway breedings on my property. I take my goats to shows and packgoat events where they encounter goats from other herds. We test every year and our herd is clean. I'm not in favor of taking the "bubble" approach to herd management. Over time this can actually weaken immune systems since they never have to fight unfamiliar pathogens. It's good to be cautious about exposing our goats to others outside their herd, but it's also important not to become paranoid.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

GoatGotGirl said:


> Einhorn you really gave me laugh. Thriving on benign neglect. It is this concept that I actually relate to more than any other as that is how it has most often been done. You don't have to coddle animals or teach a goat how to be a goat. Do they really need all of this intervention and why are they dying so easily, within hours etc. It is not difficult to get overwhelmed reading many of these threads with eyes wide as it just seems impossible to believe they are so fragile. Throw interstitial pneumonia and gangrene mastitis in there and you could chase away any newcomer. Pneumonia after significant changes in temperature?? What about their native desert which sees 35F at night and 95+F in the daytime. I have traveled through desert regions and never saw any goats dropping dead from pneumonia or shots of banamine and all sorts of injectable supplements or meds being given. It has confused me. What is happening here that is not happening there?
> 
> Is there a lot of grain feeding of goats happening in the US? Many feed companies are happy to get new goat raisers on packaged grain feed. Grain feeding can complicate animal physiology and I see many posts here acknowledging this issue and warning against feeding too much grain. The increasing prevalence of CAE, CL and Johne's should give anyone pause let alone the rise of BLV/Bovine Leukemia Virus in cattle. All of these are only a few decades old it seems. I'm fully supportive of your practice of Benign Neglect. Less is more in many cases.


I like this insight here and after my experience last year I think many goat raisers may be feeding too much alfalfa. Alfalfa is wonderful but as I discovered last year, too much of it it can seriously interfere with a goat's uptake of selenium and copper. I fed mostly alfalfa last year and experienced classic copper and selenium deficiencies in my herd even though I live in an area with adequate copper levels in the soil and downright toxic levels of selenium! My goats get unlimited browse on 40 acres during the day, so there's no reason why they should ever be selenium deficient on this ground. But I do feed hay at night through the winter, and this was the thing that changed last year.

I'd read so many good things about alfalfa that I switched to feeding mostly alfalfa to the pregnant and lactating does. They love it and eat it like candy so there is very little waste. It's readily available and inexpensive in my area, and it does do wonderful things for the quantity and quality of our milk. However, come kidding season we had a lot of problems associated with selenium deficiency. I could also see from my goats' hair that we were battling a copper deficiency that I could not stay on top of. This year I switched back to grass hay and I'm not seeing any signs of copper deficiency yet. We'll see what the kidding season brings come spring, but I'm hoping we won't see the difficult births and crooked legs we saw last year.

It is the molybdenum in alfalfa that binds copper and selenium and prevents uptake. I also happen to live on very molybdenum-rich soil, so my goats got a double-whammy last year. One thing to consider is the kind of soil you live on. A mineral balance that works great for one area may not be good for another. I have to be careful how much selenium my goats eat in their minerals because we already have toxic levels in our soil. The mineral content of the browse can be different year to year as well, depending on the weather patterns. Some years we see loads of selenium-rich plants in our fields and others we see hardly any. In the years where we see a prevalence of selenium indicator plants, I put out a sulfur block to combat selenium poisoning. Like molybdenum, sulfur helps bind the selenium.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

We know these people personally.
I'd encourage you to take a look at what they do which I think is a balanced approach for a dairy.
They are not pasture based, but have an open barn with space for their animals to roam.
They mostly bottle raise, but do occasionally dam raise.
They test annually for CAE, TB, and Brucellosis.
They export some animals out of the country, and those are tested for Johnnes and CL as well.

We are not a working dairy, but follow a similar protocol as far as annual testing. One difference is we test all of ours annually for CAE and Johnnes

https://www.spinningspidercreamery.com/

One other thing, we have had goats for 8 years now. I have found them to be relatively easy animals to keep. I think some people make it more difficult than it really is.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

True Damfino - IF the shows that you are going to have clean milk out, disposal and collection practices. Some don't. Should, says that they do, but don't.


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Damfino, goatblessings, Ranger1, I am going to follow your lead and dive in. If I can, with sensible precautions, allow my animals to live as natural and normal a life as possible then I would love to join this community of goat raisers. I know I cannot live life in a bubble with them however and I love the idea of packing with them and selling the wethers for brush control and pack and 4H animals is one of the best perks of goat raising.

I have read of certain genetics demonstrating immunity to CAE and CL. Not solely the Awassi sheep and Bedouin Black Goats but goat breeds in the US. I read many posts on this forum about raisers in the south and other hot, humid parasite heavy regions wanting to somehow breed and cross for disease resistance. To create an ultra hardy animal. I am intrigued by this and it seems to work as some were able to create and very productive dairy animal that was also parasite resistant with a Boer/LaMancha cross. While others did not have such luck and ultimately returned to a traditional dairy breed for better milk production.

I believe what Onion Creek Ranch/Suzanne Gasparotto may have been suggesting was that in ten years herds could rid themselves of CAE by allowing or enabling their herd to develop resistance to CAE. However, there are many diseases in the world for which humans and animals do not develop resistance regardless of number of exposures and subsequent illness. But the Awassi and Black Goats illustrate that with this disease, CAE and perhaps CL, it is possible. I have read of dairy goat (US) owners expressing the desire to breed for resistance after having seen resistance in their own herds or perhaps suspecting it exists in their herds. Dam raising whenever and wherever possible to enable as many goats as possible to receive immunity from the dam seems the best plan for the future of goats in this country.

Looking at the Rove dairy goats of France with their enormous horns hoofing it up the hill with their Goatherd, honestly who wouldn't want that life. After seeing these horns I knew I would not disbud. After attending a sheep and wool fair and feeling the very, very hot horns of some Shetland sheep as they were panting in the heat there is no doubt the horns serve a thermoregulatory purpose. They were very hot to the touch. We were shocked by how hot they actually were.





 Rove Goat Dairy in France

Damfino you mentioned keeping your herd small. Could you elaborate. What is considered a small goat herd? A medium goat herd? A large goat herd?


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Damfino said:


> It is the molybdenum in alfalfa that binds copper and selenium and prevents uptake. I also happen to live on very molybdenum-rich soil, so my goats got a double-whammy last year. One thing to consider is the kind of soil you live on. A mineral balance that works great for one area may not be good for another. I have to be careful how much selenium my goats eat in their minerals because we already have toxic levels in our soil. The mineral content of the browse can be different year to year as well, depending on the weather patterns. Some years we see loads of selenium-rich plants in our fields and others we see hardly any. In the years where we see a prevalence of selenium indicator plants, I put out a sulfur block to combat selenium poisoning. Like molybdenum, sulfur helps bind the selenium.


Damfino this is priceless information. I always tried to steer clear of alfalfa for my horses and if I did give it to them it was late second or third cut. When traveling I gave them whatever was available and ensured over the years that they could eat anything at any time without getting sick. No matter the situation. Alfalfa was $22 a bale as opposed to $3 a bale when we were out west. I gave orchard and grass mix most of the time in winter and solely pasture grass in spring and summer. Horses are not as sensitive to these mineral deficiencies as goats of course but many of the same rules can apply.

Do you remember Barbaro the racehorse who broke his leg coming out of the gate at Churchill or Belmont I cannot remember. The following year another horse from their farm did the same thing and that is when so many of us started saying okay, stop graining your poor horses to death! They alfalfa and grain these animals so that you cannot be in the same stall with that manure and urine. The ammonia of the urine and the acrid smell of the manure of those race horses is unbearable. My horses always smelled "clean". I cannot describe it. Clean and pure. Their skin smelled "clean" and fresh. The urine never ever smelled like the ammonia I smelled in those barns. It was horrendous. The urine of my horses was nearly unnoticeable if they peed right beside you. It was like sweet water. The barned, grained animals the fumes could knock you flat.

Was it any wonder the full time vet was always up with colicky horses. Once while boarding my animals on a farm's pasture, they unknowingly fed all the horses hay that was accidentally sprayed with pesticides. My horses got a double whammy but were fine and doing their thing in the pasture. All, ALL, horses in the barns were down. Not just sick, down. There were ten vets present trying to save them all. I remember standing there looking on in disbelief, looking back and forth from the sight of my horses and the others in the pasture loafing around in the sun to the crisis unfolding in the barns. The pastured animals were unaffected and yet had received the same hay and had actually eaten more of it as they are always fed first while the barns are graining. The pastured horses were never grained and did not get that rich alfalfa daily. I think the ramifications of daily feeding of rich, acidic feed has catastrophic consequences and I am beginning to wonder how much of this 'goat fragility' we are seeing is due to feed/nutrition issues.

I have seen "nutrition experts" advising what to feed these show and race horses only to learn from the grooms that the animals are always battling something. They are very often fragile with weak constitutions standing in their stalls breathing in the noxious metabolites of all of that improper feed. Barbaro is the canary in the coal mine. Their beauty and strength veils much of their true internal physiology. The invention of Probios was life changing for so many of these animals.

I will do as you suggest and ensure soil is tested. I had become accustomed to trying to "read the ground" as they used to call it. To get to know the plants etc. I had decided many years ago that I would no longer confine my horse to their pastures but let them roam the whole acreage and they nearly knocked me down and set off running to the far end of the property and began voraciously eating a plant they could not possibly have known was there but they made a beeline for those plants which I thought were poisonous. They were scarfing down what I thought were poisonous tiny black clusters of berries. I tried to push them away and grab them and lead them away. To no avail. They dug in and pinned their ears as a warning. They were going to eat those plants come hek or high water and there was no stopping them. For whatever reason they knew they needed those plants and they knew they were there from more than three acres away.

I noticed I hadn't seen them before, they were seasonal like you mentioned. I confirmed that they were poisonous. The hours ticked by and they were still standing and eating and seemed fine. They were drinking and calm. Night fell no one was dying. I awoke in the night, walked out to the pasture, everyone was still alive so I went back to bed. Anecdotally I talked to quite a few people who shared a similar story, horses desperate to get to these plants and eating the entire thing while horrified owners watched. No one died. It is all so much more complicated than we can even begin to imagine. Let them be horses. Let them be goats. They know how to be what they are.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

@GoatGotGirl 
When you say a micro dairy are you actually talking about a true business?
If so, how small is a micro dairy?
Or are you talking about having a few goats for your own dairy needs?


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

I love the video of the Rove goats! They are beautiful animals, and the HORNS! I love the horns! I dislike the fact that dairy goats can't be shown with horns in the U.S. I think this is something that ought to change and such decisions left to the owners. Horns get a bad rap in this country, but I think it's largely from lack of knowledge and experience combined with herd management practices that aren't horn-friendly. Feeders, fences, gates, stanchions, etc. all need to be designed with horns in mind. People need to adapt their goat handling practices to keep themselves safe. For example, using halters instead of collars when handling horned goats up-close can protect you from accidents. So can wearing eye protection when medicating a horned goat, particularly a young one whose horns stick straight up and are very sharp. Training horned goats to have good manners and respect people's space is also very important to safety.

You asked about herd size and that's a very subjective question. I like to keep somewhere around 8-12 goats, including my bucks and pack wethers. During kidding season we always have a few more until the kids are weaned and we decide who to sell. If you want to have a business you'll need more goats than that. How many goats will your land support? Do you plan to keep breeding bucks on your property? How many does do you want in milk at any given time? I don't have a business. My goats are milked for my own use only, so I usually keep only 1-2 does in milk at any given time. 

If you want to run a business, dam-raising the kids will significantly cut into the amount of milk you can get in a year. If she is bred every year, a doe can have a lactation of about 10 months. This gives her 2 months off before she freshens again. If you keep the kids on her until weaning age at around 3 months, then you will only be able to milk your doe for 7 months before she must be dried off to re-freshen. 

On the other hand, you could implement a rotation program where only half your does are bred each year and the other half are milked through. A good milker will keep up her lactation without having to be re-bred every single year. This means fewer kids to sell, and each doe could milk for approximately 20 months and then get 4 months off while you start milking the other set whose kids were just weaned. This is what I do for our house milk. I keep only 2-4 does, and I'll pick one to milk through the winter. I breed the others and give them all a long break from milking through the winter. The next year I pick a different doe to milk through. It works well for me. If you wanted a small dairy business your herd might look like 5-6 does milking at a time with 5-6 others either pregnant or raising kids. 

Some dairies look at kids as a byproduct rather than an asset in their own right. Doe kids are retained for the dairy and buck kids often end up at the sale barn. But if you choose quality does and superior bucks, your kids can be valuable in themselves, and then the three months your does spend raising them can be seen as an investment rather than a waste of milk. Dam-raised kids nearly always look bigger and more robust than their bottle-raised counterparts the same age, and they tend to have fewer health problems. This can benefit you when it comes time to sell them. However, dam-raised babies have a reputation for being wild and difficult to manage, so make sure that if your kids are dam-raised that you spend plenty of time in the pen socializing them. Whatever time you would have spent preparing and feeding bottles should instead be spent playing with the kids and making sure they are easy to handle.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Another thing to consider with your dairy is, "What do you want to sell?" Laws regarding milk and raw milk products vary from state to state. Some people prefer to avoid them altogether by only selling soaps, lotions, and other non-edible milk products. Make yourself familiar with food laws in your state. If you want to sell milk, you will probably have to set up a milk share or herd share program. Pasteurized cheeses may be less complicated to sell than raw milk cheeses. Definitely look into your state laws and figure out what hoops you're willing and able to jump through to get your products to market.


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

I currently have 35
And I think that's a relatively small herd
But I've been hoarding bucks I have 9
I've also been hoarding my last 2 crops of offspring
I have 7 Yearling
7 of this year's doe kids
And 12 milkers
We are attempting to develop a line from a couple of SG animals and the best way to do that is to keep animals until you can really see what they look like

I would love to get us to 25-30

That's what you need to not bring animals in every year and have some genetic diversity if you are ok feeding bucks


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## IHEARTGOATS (Jun 14, 2016)

There is another forum out there where one of the members did a journal on starting a dairy 
Her journal is about 18 months long
She just got her final inspection to sell liquid milk in. California
If you are interested send me a PM


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Damfino said:


> If you want to run a business, dam-raising the kids will significantly cut into the amount of milk you can get in a year. If she is bred every year, a doe can have a lactation of about 10 months. This gives her 2 months off before she freshens again. If you keep the kids on her until weaning age at around 3 months, then you will only be able to milk your doe for 7 months before she must be dried off to re-freshen.


The issue of dam raised babies reducing a dam's milk supply is a bit confusing as on one hand I am reading that it is the opposite. That a kid nursing the dam will actually increase milk production. Other sources say what you stated above, that it decreases. I cannot find a consensus on this particular topic.

Does a kid reduce the doe's milk supply or does the kid cause an increase in milk supply?


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Damfino said:


> I love the video of the Rove goats! They are beautiful animals, and the HORNS! I love the horns! I dislike the fact that dairy goats can't be shown with horns in the U.S. I think this is something that ought to change and such decisions left to the owners. Horns get a bad rap in this country, but I think it's largely from lack of knowledge and experience combined with herd management practices that aren't horn-friendly. Feeders, fences, gates, stanchions, etc. all need to be designed with horns in mind. People need to adapt their goat handling practices to keep themselves safe. For example, using halters instead of collars when handling horned goats up-close can protect you from accidents. So can wearing eye protection when medicating a horned goat, particularly a young one whose horns stick straight up and are very sharp. Training horned goats to have good manners and respect people's space is also very important to safety.


You give some very good tips here Damfino. Thank you. Halter vs collar, designing with horns in mind, etc. It is true you would have to be much more alert. Much like with a horse. I hope the horns gain more acceptance as time goes on. As you said, in the show ring, etc. It should be up to the owner. Is there is any particular reason horns were banned from the shows in the US? It seems most raisers are equally divided between those who disbud and those who do not. Many heated discussions on this topic.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

GoatGotGirl said:


> The issue of dam raised babies reducing a dam's milk supply is a bit confusing as on one hand I am reading that it is the opposite. That a kid nursing the dam will actually increase milk production. Other sources say what you stated above, that it decreases. I cannot find a consensus on this particular topic.
> 
> Does a kid reduce the doe's milk supply or does the kid cause an increase in milk supply?


I wasn't actually referring to milk supply. I was referring to the number of months that milk is available to you. If you dam-raise the kids then that's three months where you're not putting milk in your pail. When people bottle raise the kids, they milk the doe and only feed some of the milk back to the kids, or raise the kids on formula, or sell them as tiny babies so they can keep all the milk. I've never thought about goats producing more or less milk depending on whether they are nursing kids. However, to a certain extent, a doe will produce milk according to demand, so a doe with triplets will produce a lot more milk than a doe with a single kid, unless the doe with the single kid is also milked every day to encourage production. Sometimes I've milked my does with singletons right through the time they are nursing and they will produce enough for me and their kid. I do not milk does with two or three kids. They are producing enough already and it's not fair to drag their condition down by placing extra demands on them. I start milking them after the kids are weaned.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

GoatGotGirl said:


> You give some very good tips here Damfino. Thank you. Halter vs collar, designing with horns in mind, etc. It is true you would have to be much more alert. Much like with a horse. I hope the horns gain more acceptance as time goes on. As you said, in the show ring, etc. It should be up to the owner. Is there is any particular reason horns were banned from the shows in the US? It seems most raisers are equally divided between those who disbud and those who do not. Many heated discussions on this topic.


Oh my, is it ever heated! I have both horned goats and disbudded goats in my herd and I can't for the life of me figure out why people get so mad about the subject. Horns were banned by the dairy associations in America right from the beginning. I personally think it was mostly for aesthetic reasons so the goats wouldn't look like scrubby brush goats. This was also in the days where docking horses' tails was highly fashionable and people came up with all kinds of "practical" excuses to justify it.

That said, horns can be dangerous and impractical if people aren't mindful of the dangers and if their set-ups aren't designed to accommodate them. You're spot-on when you compare them to horses. Dehorned goats are such a defenseless creatures that it's easy to take them for granted. Add horns and you now have an animal that should command the same respect as a pony. That's no reason to ban them from shows though. Many other goat breeds, sheep, and cattle are shown with horns. I wish the show associations would stay out of that debate and let people do what works best for them. If they are concerned about safety then there's no reason they couldn't require horned goats to be shown in halters or even with horn caps. The association has nothing to say about safety as long as they allow full-grown bucks to be shown in collars and have no lower age limit for the handlers. I've seen some pretty dangerous stuff at buck shows!


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

On the milk production question, as Damfino said, a doe feeding kids will produce more, but expect the kids to drink it! Unless you lock Them up at night, that more may not get to you!

Goat kids are greedy little things....


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Damfino, this clears up a lot. I was imagining weaning at approx. 2 months however if one weans at 2 months does this necessitate bottle feeding for an additional month? If that is the case I would do as you suggested and wean at 3 months. I did not consider that the doe might have twins and you would not want to milk a doe trying to produce enough milk for those twins let alone a triplet. 

If a kid-free 10 month lactation is replaced with a post weaning 7 month lactation I can see that this would be a substantial reduction in milk production. 

A little math: If one goat is producing an average of 2,500 lbs per year during a ten month lactation, this equates to 250 lbs per month and for a 7 month lactation this would be 1,750 lbs of milk total. 

If ten goats are providing 25,000 lbs of milk per ten goats (10 month lactation) those 10 goats will provide you with 17,500 lbs of milk on a 7 month lactation after having dam raised their kids for 3 months. A difference of 7,500 lbs or 869 gallons between dam raised and bottle raised. 

A 7 month lactation is approx. one quarter less than a 10 month lactation if this calculation is accurate. One would have to make up the difference with additional goats. An additional 4 to 5 goats on a 7 month lactation would make up the difference. 

A 40 goat dairy: 100,000 lbs for 10 months lactation versus 70,000 per 7 month lactation. A difference of 30,000 lbs or 3,476 gallons. An additional 17 goats on a 7 month lactation would be needed to make up the difference.

The difference becomes even more significant when calculating 100 goats. 
250,000 lbs vs. 177,500 lbs. A difference of 72,500 lbs. of milk or 8,400 gallons. You would need an additional 42 goats (dam raising/7 month lactations) would be needed to make up the difference between the dam raising and bottle raising group. 

100 goats versus 142 goats or 40 goats versus 57 goats. Is it worth it? I say yes in terms of being able to dam raise the kids. For healthier, stronger more robust kids I would think it is worth it. I realize if one is talking about a 7,000 goat dairy no one would consider a scenario like this. Perhaps my figures are completely off here as I am unfamiliar with the numbers or facts regarding peak production etc. I am assuming the numbers above are for an average lactation whether with kid or without. 

For larger dairies I can see how one would need to synchronize the entire operation. There wouldn't a scenario where one could pick and choose who gets milked and who doesn't.

There are probably numerous other factors to be considered here of which I am unaware.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Per the racehorse scenario-I imagine most of the problems that racehorses have, are caused by-besides crazy feeding and extreme running-spending most of the day standing in a stall or small paddock. Horses are made to move around most of the day, not stand still. 
I wonder if that has any weight in the health, or lack thereof, of goats and other animals. I know in humans, lack of exercise is linked to an innumerable amount of diseases, both physical and mental.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

2 months is pretty early to wean. But you wouldn't be able to switch them to a bottle so late. 

What I do is start separating kids and dams at night when the kids are 2 weeks old. Milk in the morning, kids get the milk during the day. Then wean at 3 months old.


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

This is one of the primary factors related to ill health in all horses who are stall bound. Horses are trickle feeders. Horses have no gallbladder so there is a slow release of bile nearly 24/7 as well as constant stomach acid production. Unlike in humans where bile salts from the gallbladder are provided on demand. Trickle feeders need to move, as you suggested, in order to function properly. Move, eat, move, eat. A trickle feeder standing in a stall for hours on end, worked hard then put up again fed pounds and pounds of grain at once after exercising them for hours is setting them up for all sorts of problems. Digestive and otherwise. Their beauty really does betray a reality for so many of them. Stalls are for people not animals. Stalls are good for sick or injured animals but are no place for healthy animals. I did not know goats have gallbladders.


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> 2 months is pretty early to wean. But you wouldn't be able to switch them to a bottle so late.
> 
> What I do is start separating kids and dams at night when the kids are 2 weeks old. Milk in the morning, kids get the milk during the day. Then wean at 3 months old.


Thank you Suzanne. I did not know you could not bottle feed at a later date. I have a lot to learn. However, I would keep them with their dams until 3 months and I didn't realize there are variations in how to manage the nursing period. So to milk them once a day is acceptable when they have twins and doesn't tax them too much?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Yes. I’ve done this with does that have triplets.


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## singinggoatgirl (Apr 13, 2016)

On milking them once per day with twins, it will depend on genetics of your goats, of course. A very high producing milk doe can produce enough for twins and you through out her lactation. In fact, if she is a very high producer, it might be necessary to milk her twice a day to relieve pressure because the babies can't drink it all. I don't have super producers. I have average producers. I lock up the babies overnight after 2 weeks old and milk in the morning. So far, the babies have been growing well (this is with twins) and always have full tummies during the day. Her production adjusts to the demand. I am the funny-lookin' triplet. By the time they are 2 weeks old, they have started nibbling on hay with momma, and actually manage to swallow some of it. 

It is possible but highly difficult to put a baby goat on a bottle once they have had a teat. I have done it 3 times (they got completely separated from their mommies and had no choice but milk bottle, water in their bowl, and hay), and it was a week long battle with 2 of them to get them to suck on the bottle at all. The other one took 3 days to learn. All 3 of them were one month old when put on a bottle and still desperately needed the milk for nutrition. At 2 months, they might just wean themselves rather than put up with your attempts to put them on a bottle. 

Also, wanted to put in my experience with bottle-raised does. Blondie was one of the aforementioned ones put on a bottle at one month old by choice of the breeder. She has never acted like a bottle baby. Snickers was an emergency bottle baby at one week old. She is a stereotypical pocket goat bottle baby. They both accepted their babies whole-heartedly. Snickers needed no help at all, had them dry before I could run out there. Blondie did well once she realized all the pain of labor and delivery meant there was a sloppy wet baby stumbling around behind her... she is a first freshener and had no idea what had happened, but once I put the baby under her nose, the light bulb came on, and she cleaned up her babies like a pro.


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## PB_Nubians (Jan 17, 2017)

CAE and CL can not be passed to humans through milk as far as I know. Your herd would still be productive for the dairy.
It is funny how many years and years that goats have been around on this earth and they did just fine without us trying to fix everything. Nature would cull as needed. Now I realize that we have transplanted them into environments that are not native to them. That being said we can make there environment as close to natural as possible and allow them to raise there own young for 3 months. The kids are healthier in my opinion and I do not feel the need to intervene in Gods process. 
Maybe I am old school but if you want a small herd for a dairy and you manage your land and shepherd your flock appropriately there should be no problem. 
God Bless, enjoy and live your dreams.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

Einhorn said:


> On the milk production question, as Damfino said, a doe feeding kids will produce more, but expect the kids to drink it! Unless you lock Them up at night, that more may not get to you!
> 
> Goat kids are greedy little things....


Yes a Doe feeding kids will produce more because the kids nurse 5-6 times a day sometimes more.
What I do is when the kids are about 3 weeks old at night they go into a pen in the barn, mamma gets milked in the morning, I take most of the milk and leave a little for the kids. The kids run with mom for the rest of the day. Rinse and repeat.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

GoatGotGirl said:


> You give some very good tips here Damfino. Thank you. Halter vs collar, designing with horns in mind, etc. It is true you would have to be much more alert. Much like with a horse. I hope the horns gain more acceptance as time goes on. As you said, in the show ring, etc. It should be up to the owner. Is there is any particular reason horns were banned from the shows in the US? It seems most raisers are equally divided between those who disbud and those who do not. Many heated discussions on this topic.


I love horns. I do. But one thing to think about is the fact that if you are running a dairy herd with horns you will inevitably end up with some torn udders sooner or later. They can be good and nice with horns, and they can also utilize them as they wish as well. I currently have one horned goat and she has tennis balls on her horn tips because of this. I don't want anyone gored to death and am tired of udder tears. So far, the tennis balls have been enough protection.I am pro horns and pro disbudding. For me, it is on an individual goat basis. I dehorned one due to her nervous nature and the fact that she had Saanen horns, straight up and pointy! She is super friendly and in your face so one wrong move and someone gets hurt. I will say however, that I prefer to have disbudding done vs dehorning.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

PB_Nubians said:


> CAE and CL can not be passed to humans through milk as far as I know.


Humans can get CL through contact with the pus, and does can develop CL abscesses in their udders.


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## PB_Nubians (Jan 17, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Humans can get CL through contact with the pus, and does can develop CL abscesses in their udders.


I am not a vet or a scientist but from my understanding the bacteria that causes CL is encapsulated to the outside of a goats body in the abscesses we can see. They can get abscesses internally but it is way more common in sheep. I could only find on one site where is said there was a slim chance of a CL abscess on the udder.
It passes to humans by ingestion of the pus or direct contact with pus to a cut or open sore. This is rare also. If you know of better sites or research for me to look at please let me know. I always want to learn more and gain knowledge. 
God Bless


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

NyGoatMom said:


> I love horns. I do. But one thing to think about is the fact that if you are running a dairy herd with horns you will inevitably end up with some torn udders sooner or later. They can be good and nice with horns, and they can also utilize them as they wish as well. I currently have one horned goat and she has tennis balls on her horn tips because of this. I don't want anyone gored to death and am tired of udder tears. So far, the tennis balls have been enough protection.I am pro horns and pro disbudding. For me, it is on an individual goat basis. I dehorned one due to her nervous nature and the fact that she had Saanen horns, straight up and pointy! She is super friendly and in your face so one wrong move and someone gets hurt. I will say however, that I prefer to have disbudding done vs dehorning.


Thank you NyGoatMom. This really is such an emotionally charged topic and I've tried to read every pubmed study and any posts or articles I can find on the subject to add to my own experiences in Europe and elsewhere seeing horned goats and I am still not clear as to why this is the norm in the US but not elsewhere. Why it is banned for show goats here but is the opposite in Europe. Horns seem to be required as they are part of the overall confirmation of the animal. The Rove goats of France shown in the video I posted earlier in this thread seems to negate the argument that it is necessary that dairy goats be disbudded. There seem to be far more heartbreaking stories of injuries and fatalities to week old kids due to disbudding than injuries to goats or humans due to horns. Inappropriate fencing seems to be a big cause of injury to horned goats. We do not pull a dog's teeth or cut a horse's legs off. These animals command great respect. I've had some very close calls with horses but in every case it was because I was distracted or let my guard down. I can see that if one has goats with horns intact then our relationship with them will be different than being relaxed and at ease knowing there is nothing about our animals which can cause us harm.

In the NIH article regarding injecting Clove essence as a means of chemical disbudding it says: "horns have no usedful function in a domestic goat". I'm not sure why they would say this as it is well established that the horns serve to help the animal regulate body temperature.

wikivet:
"When the ambient temperature increases, the blood flow through the dermis of the horn also increases, thus facilitating heat loss through radiation from the horn surface."

*The Vascularity and Possible Thermoregulatory Function of the Horns in Goats:*
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/physzool.39.2.30152426?journalCode=physzool

This thermoregulatory function seems to be one of the most telling facts pertaining to hair goats who must have their horns or they can die of heat stroke. Their hair becomes matted without their horns to cool their bodies. As dairy and meat goats don't have this type of hair perhaps this is not as significant a concern but perhaps it is more than we realize. It makes me wonder about all of the pneumonia cases I read about. It's just a thought, are horned goats less susceptible to interstitial pneumonia than a disbudded goat? As the tendency toward developing pneumonia seems directly related to large variations in temperature, one could surmise that a horned goat who could better thermoregulate would far better than a disbudded goat but perhaps there is no correlation at all.

When I read the abstract below as well as the numerous anecdotal reports in the forums and elsewhere regarding brain damage and death from disbudding I know this is something I could never do, never risk. On a Merck Student Vet website the student author indicates they are instructed to burn for 20 seconds. Some on this forum say 7 seconds. Others even suggested 60 seconds! My concern is that there is no consensus and these kids are suffering brain damage and death even in the hands of experienced raisers and vets. The study regarding injecting clove oil or eugenol states very clearly the risks to the brains of goat kids. The recommendation seems to be to take the animals to someone experienced but the stories are rife with failures and often followed by suggestions that the person was not experienced enough to perform the procedure. Even in the hands of the most experienced how do we know minimal brain damage is not occurring. There is no way to know and one can see how minimal brain damage could be missed by even the most experienced raisers. We see this in humans. It takes an expert to diagnose brain damage. How many of these kids are actually suffering from mild brain damage. There is no way to answer that question.

*Study of disbudding goat kids following injection of clove oil essence in horn bud region*
"Meningoencephalitis caused by thermal disbudding is one of the tragic diseases in goat kids. Anatomically, the frontal bone of kids, unlike that of calves, is thin and horn buds is relatively large and the frontal sinus is undeveloped. Thermal damage to underlying bone, meninges and brain can results from prolonged or excessive pressure with the hot iron."

*Cerebral infarction and meningoencephalitis following hot-iron disbudding of goat kids.*
Thompson KG1, Bateman RS, Morris PJ.
*Author information*

*Abstract*
*CASE HISTORY:*
Twelve of 150 goat kids, 4-10 days old, died 3 days after disbudding with a hot iron. Another 18 kids had been ill the previous day but survived following antibiotic therapy. Five of the dead kids were necropsied.

*PATHOLOGICAL FINDINGS:*
There was necrosis and haemorrhage of the skin, subcutaneous tissues and frontal bone at disbudding sites in all five kids examined post mortem. Beneath disbudding sites in 4/5 kids there were bilateral, dark red, often cavitated areas of necrosis extending deep into the frontal cortex of the brain. Histologically, these areas consisted of coagulation necrosis, haemorrhage, vascular thrombosis and suppurative inflammation. Numerous bacteria, predominantly large Gram positive rods, were present in the necrotic brain tissue. In the remaining kid, bilateral areas of yellow discolouration and flattening of gyri in frontal lobes corresponded histologically to extensive polioencephalomalacia. A mixed growth of aerobes and anaerobes was cultured from the brain of one kid with suppurative lesions.

*CLINICAL RELEVANCE:*
Thermal disbudding of neonatal kids is widely practised in dairy goat herds and is considered the method of choice for disbudding in New Zealand. However, the skull of goat kids is much thinner than that of calves and the safety margin for thermal injury to the brain is markedly reduced. This report highlights the risks associated with the technique and its potential as a welfare issue.






I've decided not to disbud my future herd and I will follow your lead and use tennis balls instead. I'll also invest in a collection of PVC pipes and duct tape if necessary as well.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

You are welcome! I have to say those articles do make you wonder about temp regulation. I have no doubt they play a role in that, it seems to make sense. The hard part is as well, is that trying to sell a horned goat is harder in some areas too. People who want to show have to have them disbudded. With my herd being unpapered I tend to be able to sell them with horns more easily but it still turns away a lot of people with kids.So sales of offspring is to be considered as well.

Now for the meat market it doesn't matter horns or no. I personally do disbud my meat goats I keep simply because they destroy my fences with them and it gets costly and time consuming. I agree with having proper fencing to deter them from head rubbing and butting the fences but have not gotten to putting up more electric yet. That is on my (very long) to do list.I know economically the fence I use would not be the choice for larger operations. I use 2x4 no climb horse fence and it gets expensive. I think if I had a larger area I would go with electric fencing. I have NEVER understood why people use 4 x 4 wire fencing with goats. It doesn't work. The babies fit right through it, heads get stuck, just not as sturdy and worthless for goats IMO. It is beyond me why it is called sheep/goat fence!

Also, when you don't disbud kids, there will be some damage to udders from the nursing kids, usually the bucks do more damage.

All things to consider when starting out. Better early than late!


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

I agree regarding the 4x4. It is not a horn problem but a fencing problem. But I understand the financial side too. Fencing with 2x4 can be prohibitively expensive so we do our best to contain the animals we love and deal with the issues the way we see fit. It is all understandable and not an easy subject. I do see how one would not want these horns around children of course even on the minis. If one has to disbud then I would think the safest way is via the Clove Oil, eugenol. I found an older update regarding it's effectiveness and people do seem to be having success if the protocol named in the study I posted earlier is strictly followed.

The post below is from a woman who was following the progress of those who tried both topical and injectable Clove and found the injectable was working while the topical was not. This is a welcome development as it removes the risk of brain and eye damage and of course death from thermal disbudding. However the vet cost might make this prohibitive for many who can simply do the thermal disbudding independently without the additional expense.

https://seasonsofchangefarm.com/2016/04/08/update-on-clove-oil-for-disbudding/

"APRIL 8, 2016 BY SEASONS OF CHANGE
*Update On Clove Oil for Disbudding*
The woman in the clove oil disbudding group, who said her family has used the topical version of this method for generations, sort of disappeared from the group and won't or can't answer private messengers. This means we can't ask questions or clarify certain aspects with her. We don't know if she's had some type of emergency or what. So far, no one has had success with topical applications. They saw no decrease of size or dying of the bud and had to use the iron.

Those using a vet to inject the oil have had success if the protocol of the study is followed. The vets who changed the dosage to a lower amount based on weight for a medium to full-sized goat kid had injections fail. Those who changed the dosage for minis had success most of the time. The failures seem related to the dosage amounts. All the vets used seem to agree that .2ml is too much for a miniature breed.

Those who have done the injections themselves have had mixed results. Some of it is due to the unknown eugenol content of the clove oil, but the main issue is kids don't like to hold still, so the needle comes out and oil goes outside the bud rather than under it. Once the hole in the skin is made, the oil will come out of it instead of going under the bud.

I'm continuing to watch results, but so far, as long as the study is adhered to and dosages are based on the final size of the goat, it is working."


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I had heard about the clove oil method but have never seen it done. Interesting.


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## goat girls (Dec 13, 2017)

So you can inject clove oil under the horn bud and it will keep the horns from growing?


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

While I don’t deny that adverse effects can come from holding a red hot iron onto the head of a kid, the disbudder for that research should be fired. There is no reason that 20% of those kids would die or be injured enough to need antibiotics afterward, if they were doing it properly. That is very abnormal. I’ve disbudded probably around 50 kids, and have never needed one to have antibiotics or die from it. Slight swelling, oozing, or bleeding is the worst I’ve gotten and kids didn’t seem to notice it at all.


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

NyGoatMom said:


> The hard part is as well, is that trying to sell a horned goat is harder in some areas too. People who want to show have to have them disbudded. With my herd being unpapered I tend to be able to sell them with horns more easily but it still turns away a lot of people with kids.So sales of offspring is to be considered as well.
> 
> Also, when you don't disbud kids, there will be some damage to udders from the nursing kids, usually the bucks do more damage.
> 
> All things to consider when starting out. Better early than late!


Kid sales is definitely something to consider in your disbudding decisions. Here we compromise. We disbud the doelings so they can be registered and shown and so they will fit in with the hornless dairy management practices most common in our American culture. We leave the horns on the boys and sell them as packgoat prospects. It's unwise to ever have a single horned doe with a bunch of hornless ones, and I don't want any of my girls having to go on a meat truck simply because she has horns. But horns are typically desirable on packgoats because of body temperature regulation, self-defense against predators, and aesthetics.

NyGoatMom makes a good point about bucklings and udder damage to their dams. Young goats have very sharp horns. The roughness of the bucklings combined with their sharp, fast-growing horns is one of the things that encourages mother goats to wean them at the proper age, but occasionally a mom will pay the price for kicking her offspring away. So far we've only had one very minor udder scrape from a horned kid. We get more and worse udder scrapes from the does dragging themselves through the scrub oak. However, with really sharp baby horns it's wise to take a pair of hoof nippers and trim off the tips and then round them off with a hoof rasp.

One more thing to consider with dam-raising is that the kids can be very hard on the udders even without horns. You have to be vigilant to watch that the kids are nursing both sides evenly and that the teats aren't getting chapped or bruised. When the kids are small you'll probably have to milk the doe for a while until they catch up to her production. Things like mastitis are easy to miss in the early stages if you aren't milking twice a day. I like to get my does up on the stanchion every morning and look for issues. You'll discover that some does are better moms than others. Some of my does mete out discipline to make sure their kids nurse both sides evenly, don't yank at their teats, and don't butt their udders beyond the "let down" bump. Other moms allow themselves to be abused by their offspring and these are the ones you'll have to watch for wear and tear to the udder.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

goat girls said:


> So you can inject clove oil under the horn bud and it will keep the horns from growing?


There has been some research showing promise, yes, but it is a very exacting process and not very many people hav success with it.


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## BoulderOaks (Sep 24, 2014)

GoatGotGirl said:


> I am wondering if the desert raisers here have fewer problems than those in wetter regions. The grass is a gift and a curse where MW and parasites are concerned. Do you find you don't have much of a problem with parasites?


This has been a very interesting read. I'm going to add my two cents.

I'm in the high desert of the Sierra Nevada range and get an average of 13 inches of rain, generally all of it is in Jan-Mar. I don't have to worry about Meningeal Worm at all, but parasites can still be a problem. The biggest issue is that we don't get cold enough for long enough in the winter to kill them off. To be honest though, I don't usually have to deworm except for a few individuals a year. Coccidia can still be a killer though, and any kids/lambs born April or later tend to be very susceptible. Flies are the worst though. It's January, and I had to put a fly mask on the horses yesterday. Any climate has its own advantages and disadvantages.


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## GoatGotGirl (Jan 9, 2018)

Thank you SundewFarms. I've fallen a bit behind on this thread. I love the idea of no Meningeal Worms. What you mentioned about not getting cold enough for long enough in the winter to kill the parasites is becoming the norm around the world. Not just for parasites but for other disease vectors. Ticks, etc. Do your kids hit the ground in April where you are? That sounds late for your latitude. I am very interested to know what regimen people are using regarding parasites. I stopped worming my horses with chemical wormer after two years and used herbal wormer for another two years then never wormed them again. They had developed resistance and this remained the case no matter where we were in the country. I read one thread, I believe the goats name was Perry, where the herbal wormer was not enough and he developed Barber pole and if I remember correctly subsequently began presenting signs of Coccidia. She had to employ the use of chemical wormer to get him back on track. I am wondering what you use and if prophylactic herbal wormer is practical and if so how often one uses the herbs. I believe her plan was to get him back on the herbals once he was stable and on the road to recovery. 

There seem to be two herbal formulas used by goat raisers and Molly's Herbs from Fias Co Farm and those from Fir Meadows seem to be the most popular. I would like to be able to employ the use of these herbs as one of my former vets was a university professor and said he believed that this can help an animals develop resistance to the parasites whereas chemical wormers never provide that opportunity. In fact the opposite occurs. The parasites develop resistance to the chemical wormer. How do you prevent or manage your parasites, especially cocccidia?


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## Georgia Girl (May 18, 2018)

Ranger1 said:


> While it is true that goats are a bit more finicky health wise than other animals, I think it's not as bad as you are seeing on forums. You have to remember that a lot of the people on forums only join and post when a goat is sick, not when they are healthy, so you're not seeing both sides of the equation.
> It is not naive to consider having a dairy where you dam raise the kids for a month or two, nor is it naive to consider grass fed only. Here is a dairy in my state who is grass fed only. http://www.luckyhookfarm.com It is a shame that people keep their goats indoors only, and not at all needful or healthy for the goat.
> If you buy goats from a CAE negative herd-and there are a ton of us out there, even if the goats are more expensive-you will not need to pull and bottle feed kids. And no, I have found no correlation between bottle fed kids and those kids growing up and rejecting their kids. I've even had does that have had their kids pulled and never saw them, who gladly took the next doe's kids as her own, or later kidded and raised the kids herself.
> If you do have goats with CAE, one year of pulling the kids and hand raising, and culling the CAE positive goats, and you are CAE clean in a year and can go back to dam raising kids. BTW, kids do not have to be fed formula. You can pasteurize the milk of CAE positive does and raise the kids on that and they will not get CAE.
> ...


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