# Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA/MGR)



## JT3

Hello everyone,

My name is John.

Just found the site and figured I could be of help. I have been showing for over 20 years and am the only person in the United States or the World for that matter that is certified IBGA and ABGA judge. 

I am more than happy to answer any questions you have associated with meat goats, breeding goats or showing in general. 

I stay busy going around the country judging and giving seminars so when I have time I will try to stop in and answer some questions.

Ask away!


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## toth boer goats

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Welcome John.... :wave:

I breed and raise FB registered boers...

Can't think of any questions at the moment but ...you may be alot of help to others...glad to have you here.... :hi5: :thumb:


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## AlaskaBoers

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Wow! that's great!

So, would you be willing to give evaluations on goats? I'm in Alaska and we haven't had any ABGA/IBGA shows, and the last was USBGA like 4 years ago! It's so hard getting one up here, and it seems the pool of breeders is small in AK


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Just because I left it out earlier...I live in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Yes, I would be more than willing to evaluate goats. Alaska is quite a ways off but its GREAT to know that boer goats are up that way. Id love to see about getting together an ABGA or IBGA show up that way and Im sure the people up there would love it as well.


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## KW Farms

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Welcome to the forum John!


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## nancy d

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Great to have you John! We raise Boers up near Seattle.Looking fwd to learning more from you!


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## Kimmerz Cali Kidz

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

John, So glad to have you here!! I'm new to the site as well, I've just started raising Boers and LOVE THEM!! I want to learn all I can so that I can help to strengthen the Boer breed & market. If you don't mind please check out my thread on this page:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21196
When you have a chance and let me know your thoughts. Thank you!!
:stars:


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

nancy d, i will be judging a show not this weekend but the next in Spokane. you may want to see if they can still get you in!


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## nancy d

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Hehe..thanks John, cant go this time but I know you will see some great goats! We grow em big round these parts & prefer the SA. :wink:

Awhile back here on TGS we had a long disussion re: SA vs tubular. Are you able to comment in a new thread on your view of that?
The other association is really promoting the tubular.
Some of the concerns had to do with being able to carry multiples over the years without topline being broken down but most importantly; where's the meat on tubular!?


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## sweetgoats

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Glad to have you here John :wave:

I have to say I ate goat ground meat for the first time on Saturday, it was pretty game taste but it was served in taco's so it hide it, but tonight we had steaks, and they were great.

I do not raise meat goats, and I could NEVER ever eat one that i have raised, but the steaks are from a friend that breeds and raises them to eat, and wow could you tell the differance in the taste.


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## nancy d

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Lori I wonder what made the gamey taste? Ours have always been VERY mild, even the 2yr old ground buck!


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## nancy d

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Lori I wonder what made it taste "gamey"? We've had 2yr old ground buck in rut & was delicious!


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## myfainters

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Hello John,

Welcome to the group! :wave:

Wish you were closer to CA...we could always use more certified judges. The MGR (Myotonic goat registry) just passed a rule this year that all of our judges must be certified now...so we are having a difficult time in finding enough judges for our shows. 

Feel free to join in on conversations and start your own topics. Pictures are always appreciated!


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

I have actually been asked to judge the Myotonic national show this year in August so I am well aware and happy that they passed such a rule. I am hoping to get a call out to California in the near future to judge some shows out that way.

As for meaty/SA(old school) vs. tubular(new school) it really depends on the goat.

I have always said that the boys should look like boys and the girls look like girls. I think that the males that have this new modern look at getting a bit too feminine. The South Africans would eliminate a goat that had that characteristics and for good reason. I think there is a big difference in a well balanced goat with muscle and SA qualities thats long bodied...and a tubular goat. Tubular to me is a word I have always used with a bad connotation. It is a fault. Then again a goat that is TOO masculine and rough is what I call coarse. They need a good blend...or balance. I think recently the associations went towards this new tuby type and now are realizing it wont work in a herd and are getting back to the type that the breed standards characterize and describe.

thats my 2 cents.


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## GotmygoatMTJ

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Welcome John! Its nice to have you here!

I am glad that the organizations are realizing their mistakes. We used to raise the boers and it was so hard to keep up with the new style. We liked them meaty and well, MEAT.


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## Bellafire Farm

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Wonderful to have you here! Welcome! Can't wait to learn some more about the market goat/meat goat side of goat raising!

We raise Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats and show 4H and ADGA, but my daughter also does a Market Goat for fair every year. So we have lots to learn!


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

random question...how do i reply to private messages?


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## toth boer goats

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

You will need 25 posts... to receive that feature... If you know who the PM is from....email that person...that will work...... :wink:

I know HoosierShadow..in this post below.. was inquiring about a teat question on 2x1... but after she posted the pic.. it was instead 1x split... anyway ..here is the link to it... 
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=21538

I am sure others may want to know this question as well about the 2x1 clean.. are they Ok in a show ring....or are they frowned upon....


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## nancy d

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

And what about a buckling with 2+1 clean, how would this affect offspring? I realize there's probably no concrete answer on that one. We usually use 4 teated bucks; sometimes come off with 4 teats sometimes not.
Our two teated buck on 4 & 2 teated does produces random structure as far as # of teats go, it seems like the 2 teat does usually throw 2 teated offspring and likewise the 4 teated but I'd have to go back through my barn notes to see what really happened.



toth boer goats said:


> I am sure others may want to know this question as well about the 2x1 clean.. are they Ok in a show ring....or are they frowned upon....


Good one Pam!!


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## freedomstarfarm

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Welcome John :wave: 
Great to have you here! 
WIsh I had Boers so I could ask some questions. :wink:


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## toth boer goats

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



> And what about a buckling with 2+1 clean, how would this affect offspring? I realize there's probably no concrete answer on that one. We usually use 4 teated bucks; sometimes come off with 4 teats sometimes not.
> Our two teated buck on 4 & 2 teated does produces random structure as far as # of teats go, it seems like the 2 teat does usually throw 2 teated offspring and likewise the 4 teated but I'd have to go back through my barn notes to see what really happened.


 good question nancy d.. :wink: 


> I am sure others may want to know this question as well about the 2x1 clean.. are they Ok in a show ring....or are they frowned upon....





> Good one Pam!!


 :thumbup: :hi5:


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

well sounds like I need to get my post count up.

I did get an email about that teat and I will check that thread and see what I can tell from it.


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## Dodge 'Em

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

I am a member of both ABGA and IBGA and I am getting more into showing. I have a question, regarding teats. Why are the bucks teats not looked at, or judged? I would think that before a buck could be placed, that his teats should also be checked for disqualifications.

Thanks.


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## Perfect7

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

I have one about my 4 1/2 month old buckling. He was born with a 1/4 inch split in his scrotum and it gradually grew as he did to about 1/2 inch to 3/4 of an inch (still not quite 3/4 yet). Now as his testicles are getting bigger it almost seems as if the slit is getting smaller as the testicles fill out and push down. He is well bred, so my question is....how much is this frowned upon in the show ring? Will the split continue to get bigger or is it pretty much done at this point? Thanks!


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## toth boer goats

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



> well sounds like I need to get my post count up.


 :wink: :thumb:


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

To the first matter...

Bucks are generally considered very low as far as passing on maternal characteristics. In addition, the females are only looked at because they are the ones that will have the milking duties, not the males. The specifications are there because a doe with a bad teat will have trouble milking and may lose the baby due to this. That is why it is frowned upon because we are trying to make these goats as maintenance free as possible. If we eliminate that aspect we have healthier kids and mothers who can produce a better product/goat.

The second matter, bucks are only frowned upon if they have a 2" split in the testicles. Anything less is fine and not looked down upon and should NOT be used as a complete demerit. If any judge does that I would be sure to bring it to their attention that it is only a DQ fault if its 2" or more. Generally you should be perfectly fine if it is indeed 1/2 inch.

keep them coming, and I havent had a chance to look at that other thread yet about the teat issue but I will tonight when I get settled in before my show tomorrow.


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## Dodge 'Em

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

But half of the genetics are from the buck.....my buck last year threw ALL fishteats on every kid. None of my dams had fishteats, but every one of thier doelings did, so I considered it came from the buck. I also know of a buck that is close to enoblement, and I know of one breeder that used him on most of his does, and they all had "bad" teated kids this year. 
I hear some breeders talking about how a buck can clean up your does teats. Well, if he can clean them up, I would also think that a bad teated buck will also pass on those traits to his kids.
That is why I think that a buck should be judged on his teat structure also.

What do you think of this whole ABGA closed registry, do you think it will last?


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## ()relics

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



Dodge 'Em said:


> But half of the genetics are from the buck...... Well, if he can clean them up, I would also think that a bad teated buck will also pass on those traits to his kids.
> That is why I think that a buck should be judged on his teat structure also.


100% Agreed


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## myfainters

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



JT3 said:


> To the first matter...
> 
> Bucks are generally considered very low as far as passing on maternal characteristics. In addition, the females are only looked at because they are the ones that will have the milking duties, not the males. The specifications are there because a doe with a bad teat will have trouble milking and may lose the baby due to this. That is why it is frowned upon because we are trying to make these goats as maintenance free as possible. If we eliminate that aspect we have healthier kids and mothers who can produce a better product/goat.
> 
> The second matter, bucks are only frowned upon if they have a 2" split in the testicles. Anything less is fine and not looked down upon and should NOT be used as a complete demerit. If any judge does that I would be sure to bring it to their attention that it is only a DQ fault if its 2" or more. Generally you should be perfectly fine if it is indeed 1/2 inch.
> 
> keep them coming, and I havent had a chance to look at that other thread yet about the teat issue but I will tonight when I get settled in before my show tomorrow.


With myotonics we would disqualify a buck with more than 2 teats..while it is only a fault on a doe. The theory being that a buck has more influence on a herd than a single doe and therefore more of an ability to pass on the fault to a greater number of animals. Strange that it is not looked at that way on boers but I guess I only find it strange because I'm used to a different mindset.

So regarding the split scrotum.. I have a question. I have a 6 month old buckling that when it's hot outside has a perfect scrotum....but when he gets cold looks to have about a 1/2 in. split.... would that be considered a split scrotum...or does he just do weird things when he gets cold? :shrug: :scratch:

I've been going back and forth about wethering him because I think he's gorgeous....but I won't keep a buck with a split of any kind. :help:

Maybe I just spend too much time in the goat yard. :slapfloor:


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## citylights

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Hey this is great -- welcome, John! I have a quick question -- how do you get licensed (or certified?) to judge IBGA/ABGA -- and what's the other organization? Is one more preferable than the other? Just curious....


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## myfainters

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



citylights said:


> Hey this is great -- welcome, John! I have a quick question -- how do you get licensed (or certified?) to judge IBGA/ABGA -- and what's the other organization? Is one more preferable than the other? Just curious....


They just had a judging certification course in Northern CA about a month ago I think... I know a couple of people that went. You need to get in on one of those asap Denise! :thumbup: Although I don't think we will be doing anymore MGR shows in CA....only FGG and MSFGA.


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## jdgray716

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



myfainters said:


> JT3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> To the first matter...
> 
> Bucks are generally considered very low as far as passing on maternal characteristics. In addition, the females are only looked at because they are the ones that will have the milking duties, not the males. The specifications are there because a doe with a bad teat will have trouble milking and may lose the baby due to this. That is why it is frowned upon because we are trying to make these goats as maintenance free as possible. If we eliminate that aspect we have healthier kids and mothers who can produce a better product/goat.
> 
> The second matter, bucks are only frowned upon if they have a 2" split in the testicles. Anything less is fine and not looked down upon and should NOT be used as a complete demerit. If any judge does that I would be sure to bring it to their attention that it is only a DQ fault if its 2" or more. Generally you should be perfectly fine if it is indeed 1/2 inch.
> 
> keep them coming, and I havent had a chance to look at that other thread yet about the teat issue but I will tonight when I get settled in before my show tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> With myotonics we would disqualify a buck with more than 2 teats..while it is only a fault on a doe. The theory being that a buck has more influence on a herd than a single doe and therefore more of an ability to pass on the fault to a greater number of animals. Strange that it is not looked at that way on boers but I guess I only find it strange because I'm used to a different mindset.
> 
> So regarding the split scrotum.. I have a question. I have a 6 month old buckling that when it's hot outside has a perfect scrotum....but when he gets cold looks to have about a 1/2 in. split.... would that be considered a split scrotum...or does he just do weird things when he gets cold? :shrug: :scratch:
> 
> I've been going back and forth about wethering him because I think he's gorgeous....but I won't keep a buck with a split of any kind. :help:
> 
> Maybe I just spend too much time in the goat yard. :slapfloor:
Click to expand...

Hi John! Glad you are here.

Jess, I was thinking the same thing and wondered too how that was the case. As for the scotum, I think this is still considered normal or a (w) which is still not a split. I split is more less two testicals in two seperate sacs. It sounds like the skin is shrinking up around the testies when cold and hanging normally when not. I will be interested in what John has to say.

John, I would like to talk to you more. Could you email me priviotly? I will try and message you but I think you will not be able to get it back to me yet. thanks


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

I completely agree that we put a little too much emphasis on the phenotypic side of things and not the genotypic as much. My best advice to you is that if you want to have a Buck that sires many many kids...check EVERY aspect that you can look at and make sure your investment is worth it. We dont check teats on them in the show ring but you better believe I do when I am breeding my own stock.

As for the split...when a male is cold he will retract his testicles some and the skin will indeed shrink up to keep the testicles close to the body for warmth as they must stay at an optimal temperature for sperm survival. Its no biggie and like I say as long as its less than 2 " you are fine, its not better to have no split vs. a 1" or anything. No worries.

As far as schools, look for each associations website to tell when they are having certification clinics. USBGA has one coming up i know but they do not allow you to be a judge with any other association.

As for the ABGA rule about shows and registration...I think its total crap and they will or should go back to the old way. I think they will not have a choice when they notice people NOT showing as much or registering their goats in ABGA but other Assoc. thats just my two cents.


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## ()relics

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



JT3 said:


> .....As for the ABGA rule about shows and registration...I think its total crap and they will or should go back to the old way. I think they will not have a choice when they notice people NOT showing as much or registering their goats in ABGA but other Assoc....


Question: When you say go back to the "old way"; are you referring to the Old Standard, eliminating the new "proposed changes" or just the newest hassle of not allowing goats, registered with other Associations, into ABGA shows?


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

The new hassle.


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## Dodge 'Em

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Blue eyes. Is that a total blue eye or if there is a spot of blue? I have a kid this year who has a little blue line under the iris of his eyes. You have to look close, but its there. No other kids have it (all by the same buck).


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## jdgray716

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



Dodge 'Em said:


> Blue eyes. Is that a total blue eye or if there is a spot of blue? I have a kid this year who has a little blue line under the iris of his eyes. You have to look close, but its there. No other kids have it (all by the same buck).


Blue eyes are just that, solid blue eyes. Then there is a blue marbled. This is blue with black or another color running through it and is can be speckled and it can be patches etc. Then there are also those goats that are born blue and they slowly change over so you may be dealing with that as well.


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## dessie

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

welcome, i am new to showing my self and could really use some advice on showing. just wanted to welcome you im sure i will have lots of ?s later


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Just checking up...hope everyone is well...slow season right now with nationals for ABGA and IBGA happening.


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## Burns Branch Boers

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Hi there! Glad to find this post!!

We attended our 1st IBGA show yesterday. While my buckling did get a blue ribbon-he was very thin compared to the grain fed bucklings there. We will be making some diet changes of course so any input you would have there is appreciated. The other owners there suggested I not give him hay of any kind-just grain and supplements. This will be completely different from how we have been feeding him so I will need to gradually do this change.

The judge there said he had "natural muscling ability" and the judge said he could see the natural structure but I guess w/out the proper feed he is not "filling out" right. I asked if at 6 months was it too late to have him muscle up properly and the people at the show said that should not be a problem. He is EGGS bred on his dam side.

What would you suggest?


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Really depends on what part of the country you are in.

I would NEVER suggest taking a goat completely off of forage at any point, they need it in their diet or else they will get lactic acidosis fairly easily if you strictly pump them full of feed and supplements (its what led to the eventual death of some great Able Acres kids)

I always tell people, goats LOVE alfalfa if you have the ability to feed it..do it. it puts on a really nice blossom and they eat it like candy.

i would highly suggest reading this page and taking it into account...yes grain is important, very important...but dont overfeed it and kill the goat by accident.

http://www.sweetlix.com/media/documents ... nGoats.pdf

natural muscling...they must be looking at the forearm and the length of the muscle pattern instead of the actual condition of the goat. thats a good sign. research has shown the circumference of the forearm and its muscle directly relates to the ribeye area.

just keep the grain to them and you will be good to go probably.


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

I'm back!

Been doing quite a bit of judging and advising here lately so it's been tough to get on along with formulating a thesis at NC State...which has pretty much taken ALL my time that I have free from shows.

Been seeing some really good stuff lately at shows, less and less cull defects in animals which is a GOOD thing.

Good to see that the breeders are realizing what is needed.

Been interesting seeing the battles between ABGA and IBGA lately though thats for sure


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## nancy d

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Welcome back JT3! Oh no not another abga vs another association again. 

I have a question about a yrlg who has a bend at the end of one horn like when you bend your thumb at the first knuckle.
Is she showable? This is a cosmetic thing but not sure if that alone would put her at the back. :?


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## AlaskaBoers

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

I'm going to get some pics of my yearling and post them tomorrow for you!


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## Reed

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



myfainters said:


> They just had a judging certification course in Northern CA about a month ago I think... I know a couple of people that went. You need to get in on one of those asap Denise! :thumbup: Although I don't think we will be doing anymore MGR shows in CA....only FGG and MSFGA.


WHAT? I want one!  Do you have any more information on it? location, cost, ect.? I'm in Redding, CA


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

The horns are supposed to be rounded and gradual...

If it were me I would take a file and clippers and see if I couldnt round it out or cut it off...should be pretty easy as long as you dont hit the blood line.


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## nancy d

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Thank you JT3, you confirmed my suspicions on both accounts.


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## HoosierShadow

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

I have a question about percentage does. My son has a doe that he loves and wants to show again next year. She was born on Jan 5th, 2011. She is out of a Boer/Nubian doe, by a registered fullblooded buck. 
The last show we were at, the judge knocked her down because of her head. He was explaining something about the angle of her head, and we should do something to correct it, but there was noise, and I couldn't hear what we was explaining to my son about what it was he should do or. She's never been knocked down by this before. I know she doesn't have a perfect boer head, but she is a percentage...not a fullblood...I'd just have assumed it was if she was a nice structured meat goat over all? My son needs to work on muscling/toning her for next year, but this was our first year with showing goats in 4-H so we had no idea what we were doing...LOL

Here's a pic of her head...I am just stumped...and I wasn't able to get over and ask him what he meant...He did seem very very VERY picky.... He didn't like my daughters doe because the tips of her ear were turned up...I was told this wasn't supposed to affect showing, but he definitely inspected the ear...


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

I really hope that Judge was partially blind.

When you said that the ears were held against your doe I immediately thought "this judge knows nothing"

sounds like he doesnt...that doe doesnt have the most breed character about her head but then again shes by no means concave or just plain ugly.

shes fairly feminine...I dont see much wrong with it as far as that goes...its a little flat in its forehead as we obviously look for roundness...but it sounds like you got a judge that had no idea what he was really talking about or looking at...and I apologize that you had that happen.


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## nancy d

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

She looks pretty darn good to me for a %!!!


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## GotmygoatMTJ

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

I too don't think heads should be held against percentage does. 50% kids aren't always going to have a roman nose, especially if their dam was a kiko. If it was concave, that would be another story.

What are your thoughts on Percentages that are actually fullbloods? I know a lot of breeders that just don't register fullblood doe kids and then breed them to a registered buck and register the doe kids as '50%'. I don't like it, it is completely unfair and wrong, just wondering your thoughts?


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy. For yourself and the industry as well.


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## toth boer goats

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



> What are your thoughts on Percentages that are actually fullbloods? I know a lot of breeders that just don't register fullblood doe kids and then breed them to a registered buck and register the doe kids as '50%'. I don't like it, it is completely unfair and wrong, just wondering your thoughts?


I know I am not JT3...but I need to ask?
..Why is it so wrong...I need to hear your input on why.... when the associations.. let you start out with a 50% registry and the Doe.. doesn't have to be registered... but the buck does...to begin?

If a Doe isn't registered ...no matter if she is FB or percentage...and you have a FB registered buck to breed her and she is a beautiful show quality Doe..... but couldn't get the paperwork... either by ...a breeder that doesn't give them to you... which happens.. even though you pay registered price for them...or where promised the registration and they ignore your emails or calls.......which is heart breaking in itself... or just other reasons... then you have that choice... to make her offspring better...it is kinda frustrating and unfair... as well for a breeder... to have to start out at 50 %... when they know that Doe is 100% FB boer......

Purebred registered... is better than.. not registered at all... if that Doe was worthy in the first place to have registration.... I have seen some Percentages that are not FB ..that look even better ...than some FB boer Does in shows.....

I really don't see someone taking a FB registered boer and making it a Registered Percentage for any benefit... to themselves... that would be so silly... and they can't get as much for the offspring.. if percentage registered... :shrug:


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## Kimmerz Cali Kidz

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

:scratch: :scratch: 
OK, JT3; 
Need a little help here... I brought this question to my fellow TGS members, and someone suggested that I ask you...

So here it goes, I just found out that blue eyes are a fault for Boers; read it on an association website. Anyways I have a purebred doe, (98.5%), That has brown eyes, but a tiny bit of blue marbling (I'll attach pictures). You can't see the blue really unless you've seen it up close before. I'm just wondering if this is considered a major flaw, or if it would slide because her eyes are not TRULY BLUE???

...LOL, and breed standards aside; you have to admit, it is kinda pretty... :ROFL:

Thank you! :dance: 
~Kim


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/79a/79a ... 402ec1.jpg

thats a blue eye...you are fine.

that goat doesnt have blue eyes. you would EASILY notice it.


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## Lambchop

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

My daughter showed a boer cross market goat this weekend (first goatshow ever) & her goat3 was 65 pounds. It was the lightest goat in a heavy weight class. Judge said goat was over conditioned. I know zilch about goats. I assume this means it is fat. How far should we walk the goats daily? Is this fixable? I posted in another post about a feed additive that would promote leaness while still adding muscle. Any suggestions?


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## Kimmerz Cali Kidz

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



JT3 said:


> http://www.fotothing.com/photos/79a/79a3c2a947760b508ee1ef16f9402ec1.jpg
> 
> thats a blue eye...you are fine.
> 
> that goat doesnt have blue eyes. you would EASILY notice it.


^Thank you!
:stars:


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## GotmygoatMTJ

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



JT3 said:


> Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy. For yourself and the industry as well.


Thank you and I agree! :thumb:

Pam, just saw your post. I was actually told that by a breeder about 4 years ago that that is what he did, to get better percentage show does. :veryangry: I can't remember his name now, or his farm, but it was at a show, and I was furious. I feel stupid that I didn't say anything back then.


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## Dani-1995

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

JT3, how do you feel about bracing a market wether? Around here its becoming popular to brace them for showmanship and market. We seem to have a lot of judges that like it but last weekend our judge didn't seem to care for it. (4-H shows, btw)


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## Dani-1995

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*



Lambchop said:


> My daughter showed a boer cross market goat this weekend (first goatshow ever) & her goat3 was 65 pounds. It was the lightest goat in a heavy weight class. Judge said goat was over conditioned. I know zilch about goats. I assume this means it is fat. How far should we walk the goats daily? Is this fixable? I posted in another post about a feed additive that would promote leaness while still adding muscle. Any suggestions?


Until he's breathing heavy. Which would probably be about 15 minutes, maybe less, maybe more. It depends on your goat really. I have one that could go all day and one that can for about 10-15 minutes before he's tired. Just be careful not to over work him


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## JT3

Bracing is becoming a real issue.

I have a few different feelings on it.

First of all I dont mind it if it happens. If the rules of the show say no bracing then dont do it, easy as that.

I think its impossible for a small child to brace and not safe. I also think it makes a goat look ridiculous and over stretched. 

It does however make a goat feel completely different in terms of finish.

Now...I think if you can brace and it doesnt make the goat move and get out of whack for showmanship, go ahead....but I have YET to see that happen.

Additionally, whenever I judge I put my hands on them as they brace and when they arent. I will make the kids stop bracing at one point to get a feel that way. its easy to just simply say could you please back away.

I can always find a way to get a feel without them braced and I think you should feel both ways.

If you think it makes your goat better, do it, but there arent many goats that it helps. It just roaches their back and stretches them out way too far.

Just my two cents though. I dont mind it but will always get around it.


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## Dani-1995

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

I don't care much for bracing either but alot of ours judges like it, so to win I have to. Thank you for your insight!


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## goatgirlzCA

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

On the bracing issue, my daughter shows in 4-H and jackpots. She is 11 and is in her first year of showing. She also apparently also knows everything! 

Her goats, once they get market weight, are VERY hard for her to brace because she is smaller. She and I have an ongoing argument about bracing. In showmanship, I told her to not brace them until the judge is coming around to "feel" them, but she argues with me and thinks she should do it in showmanship every time they stop and set. I think that when she stops and sets, she needs to worry about making sure he is square and looks good, and not brace him at that point.

In the market class, that's when you worry more about bracing them alot because the judge is doing a lot more feeling. Who's right? I sure hope its me


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

congrats!

in my mind you are correct.

bracing is TOUGH to keep them square.


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## JT3

*Re: Ask the Judge! (IBGA/ABGA)*

Wish I could edit the title...now including Myotonics as well!

If any of the mods can add in MGR that would be helpful!

thanks guys!

Keep the questions coming if you have them. Been a BUSY summer and fall so far with shows...finally slows in the next 2 weeks.


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## toth boer goats

> Wish I could edit the title...now including Myotonics as well!
> 
> If any of the mods can add in MGR that would be helpful!
> 
> thanks guys!


 added it for you...... let me know if it is correct...if not.. I will change it to however you would like.... :wink: :thumb:


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## RPC

Alright Judge I have a couple does I would like you to look over for me and tell me what you think. I am just wondering what kind of show career/ breeding prospects you think they might have? Or should we just stick to our county fair/ cull them?

This is Sky. Obviously it is just a natural pose but she is 20 months old and we just love this doe she was 3rd in a class of 6 as a 5 month old and 2nd in a class of 8 as a 17 month old. 








This is Jasmine and she is 3 going on 4. We have not shown her yet but she was shown by her previous owner as a kid in their county fair. We do plan on showing her at the fair next year.








This is Hope. she is an end of march kid and I think she has a lot of promise but I could be bias. She is our first living kid that we bred and raised and I am hoping that I don't just like her for that reason. I know its not to good of a photo but from what you can see what do you think?








Here is another not so good one but you can see more of her body








Lastly is my favorite kid I bought of the year Cashmere. She is an end of January kid. I really like her but the judge said she is short hipped and I am not positive what he means so if you could help that would be awesome.


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## JT3

that title change works perfect! thanks so much.

as for the goats let me go through them individually:

1.) Long bodied, high capacity type doe that you really admire on her side profile. Shes certainly got the strongest top of the does you posted. shes pretty balanced from end to end, structurally correct and appears to have a fair amount of muscle. Its hard for me to tell anything about width from that view...obviously the wider the better...and I cant see much of the head but she looks to have a fair amount of breed character.

2.) This doe is interesting as she is really extreme in two different areas. I LOVE her head and neck better than any of the others due to the femininity she carries as well as the breed character. Shes a refined doe from end to end. On the other hand shes a bit coarse in her design body wise. Probably the weakest doe in terms of her topline, we'd like to make her stronger and straighter especially behind her shoulders. she appears to be a bit narrow in the rear but thats hard to tell from this angle.

3.) Definitely the thickest muscled highest volume of muscle doe of the ones posted. shes got great circumference of bone and pretty wide chested (im guessing the widest of all of these does) She appears to be a bit flat in her head shape and forehead, we'd like to round it out and make it more half moon shaped. On the side profile she is well balanced. plenty of definition of muscle and strong topped, not as deep as the #1 doe but certainly some capacity there.

4.) unfortunately I cant tell a darn thing about her head from this angle. I think shes the best doe body wise of any that we have seen. Shes long from shoulder to hip, really straight and level in her topline to be long bodied. Shes deep in her heart girth and carries that depth on back to her flank well. Shes certainly got the wedge type design we look for. She may be a bit short hipped compared to the black doe but shes not REALLY short hipped. By short hipped I mean the whole rear leg. The point where the back ends down to the stifle/hock and back to the furtherest point under the tail head. imagine a square over that area and see which doe has the biggest square. I really would like to see her head. 

Given that I cant see her head...im kind of struggling to make this claim but I would bet that in order of best to last I'd go
4-3-1-2

There you go...any questions please let me know. I didnt go into as much detail as I would at a show but that gives you a pretty good synopsis of my toughts on each doe.


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## toth boer goats

> that title change works perfect! thanks so much.


 :thumbup: :greengrin:


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## RPC

JT3 you have been a huge help thank you so much!!!! I now understand about the short hipped thing and we will look at that when we buy more.


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## Tenacross

I have a question for Judge JT3.
Today I showed a doe in the 6-9 month fullbloods in a ABGA show.
It was a large class of 20 and I made the first cut.
The judge then inspected mouths and DQd my doe for her bite.
I wasn't the only one. Several participants told me that I shouldn't
completely give up on her because her mouth could change. Is that 
right? At eight months, are the teeth she has now permanant teeth?
Do all judges DQ on does that age for bad bite? I do see what the 
judge was talking about. She doesn't line up as well as my other
does, but she is not badly parrot mouth or under shot.


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## JT3

Well first off let me quote the ABGA breed standards:



> The jaws must have no over or under bite from birth to 24 months of age. After 24 months no more than a ¼ of an inch under bite is allowed.


So if the doe is 8 months and her bottom teeth do not touch her top pallet/gums at all, then yes unfortunately she would have been DQd

HOWEVER, these goats do change quite a bit...she will get new teeth in as well do not forget that. Those milk teeth will fall out and new ones come in that might be a better fit. I'd at least wait till then if I was you.

Hope that helped!!


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## RPC

Alright JT3 here is a better picture of the 4th doe Cashmere that way you can see her head.


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## JT3

back to the top for show season!


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## JT3

back to the top!


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## FaRmEr FrEaK

Welcome nice to have you a part of the Goat Spot


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## Tenacross

Judge JT3,
What do you think about squatting goats in an ABGA class. Does it encourage you to like the goat better if it levels out
their topline? You can tell when they do it, right?


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## JT3

When I view goats on the side, I get an idea of what I like and what I dont...if I think an exhibitor is hiding something, that all comes out when I walk them in a circle. There are things that you see on the walk that no one can hide so to speak like they can when the goats are set up. A good showman can hide faults on the setup but its not possible to hide on the walk.

we have our tricks


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## clearwtrbeach

Welcome John! It'll be great to have not only another experienced person but with your back round to boot.:wahoo: I wish I knew about the show much sooner, I'm limited right now on travel; but I'm in southern WA.


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## clearwtrbeach

As for the ABGA rule about shows and registration...I think its total crap and they will or should go back to the old way. I think they will not have a choice when they notice people NOT showing as much or registering their goats in ABGA but other Assoc. thats just my two cents.[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree!! I really hope they realize that may hurt them in the yearly membership dues. My buck (I only purchased him this year) was born in 2009 and if FB and his grandparents are ABGA however, the breeder didn't double register when she had the chance.


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## Used2bmimi

Hello, First of all thank you for making yourself available for questions. That is a really neat thing to do. My question is about herd sires. I have a small herd of Registered Boers and have been spending a lot of time thinking and defining my goals as a producer. I have decided that I want to produce show quality market wethers for my children's 4H projects and sell the remainders (as projects for others or as meat). I need to purchase a herd sire some time during this spring/summer to build on what I have. I hear people talking about show sires vs. wether sires. From a judge's perspective, what is the difference? I mean, I know what I need to look for first and foremost is muscle and frame, but is there a real difference between a buck that is suited more toward wether production than replacement stock production? I know that you are a Boer judge, but is there an advantage (in hybrid vigor/growth) in crossbreeding or is it best to stick with purebred? Thank you in advance for your time in answering this question.


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## JT3

There has been quite a bit of crossbreeding going on lately in the wether ring. A lot of people are mixing kiko with boer to get a faster growing larger framed animal.

If you are looking to have show quality goats strictly for market shows...I would look for a length and muscle. They are the two more important aspects. I can get a large framed goat no problem...but if they dont have muscle on them at all, what is the benefit to the market?

I would focus on a herd sire that has a lot of muscle. Width through the chest is the more defining feature.

let me give you an example.

between these two bucks, which has a wider chest and therefore has more natural room inside its carcass to put on muscle from end to end?

http://www.circlestarboers.com/images/Upload/FullSize/2010-4-22-Max-Bluebonnets-1.JPG

http://www.goldstrikeboergoats.com/images/Upload/FullSize/mybucks-020.jpg

You see my point? the wider the better because there is more room internally.

I'd focus on muscle at this point considering it should be the most important part of any market animal.

And Im sure a few of you know, IBGA has folded...everything is going to ABGA now.

Im still certified in ABGA so feel free to ask any questions.


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## HoosierShadow

What do you think of the kiko/boer cross? Do they do well in the shows?
Just curious, my kids may be showing a couple of kiko/boer wethers for the first time this year. We don't get into all the real competitive stuff, they just enjoy showing but of course they do want to place well.
They showed some does in the county fairs this past summer, so this will be their first year doing wethers. I honestly don't know anything about wethers, so it'll be new for us all.

Very sad about IBGA. Everyone I talk to that have contacted ABGA have said that ABGA told them they didn't think they'd be able to get their goats registered with ABGA. So I wonder what is going to happen, I'm wondering, will IBGA books be held differently than ABGA and not merging together? 
I wish they'd get this figured out so we know what the deal will be.

I'd love to just have my kids goats changed to USBGA, but not sure if the county/state fair honor USBGA? an ag agent didnt' think so, only ABGA now.


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## bgr09

What do you think of some of my show goats









He is a may born buck out of th big cat









A may born triplet he is a grandson of cat in the hat and his mom is spotted









An eggs doe out of fixit in a flash she and the next doe have been fed free choice hay and 1 pound of hay but will be started on show feed soon









An eggs doe out of flash in the pan


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## bgr09

The pictures did not go right I'll try a gain


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## bgr09

The last thread with just pictures are right and in order from the first threads desricptions.


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## clearwtrbeach

Very sad about IBGA. Everyone I talk to that have contacted ABGA have said that ABGA told them they didn't think they'd be able to get their goats registered with ABGA. So I wonder what is going to happen, I'm wondering, will IBGA books be held differently than ABGA and not merging together? 
I wish they'd get this figured out so we know what the deal will be.

I'd love to just have my kids goats changed to USBGA, but not sure if the county/state fair honor USBGA? an ag agent didnt' think so, only ABGA now.[/QUOTE]

Hoosier we've talked a little about this being a county /state fair- they aren't being hosted by abga -are they? If not I'd rally that if the animal is registered and the show is not being sponsored as an ABGA show they should accept USBGA.


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## toth boer goats

That is horrible, I hope the ABGA doesn't do that.


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## JT3

Sorry I have been away from this for awhile...had to get some of my own other non goat related businesses up and running.

IM BACK!!

I'll try and adress some of the things in this thread ASAP!


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## JT3

Ok as for the pics that were posted. 

You have goats that seem to have very nice front ends on them. The chest floor is nice and clean and as you look at the shoulder it blends nicely and smoothly into the side, ribs and barrel. They are very Square as far as their body type...

I wish they all had the length that the white faced doe has...if you can replicate that length with those front ends you'll be in business. 

I think the best animal you have is that doe with the white spot right on her nose.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I have a question,

A lady I know raises fullblood, registered boers, and has for the past 20 years or so, but not a single one of her boer does have a roman nose, and hardly any of her bucks do either. The does have straight faces, like the dairy goats (excluding nubians). She does not show her boers, but is that a disqualification or a mark down if your boer does not have the curved/roman nose?


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## JT3

Certainly not a DQ...if it was VERY concave(almost rounded in the opposite way like an arabian) then it would be very highly looked down upon.

Head shape is one of the main breed standards. It is listed very high in the standards which means it is extremely important. It is what distinguishes the breed from others in reality. 

A roman head is important and straight or plain faced animals do get marked down in comparison to one that has a roman head.

That being said...if the goat has an extremely well balanced and amazing body and a straight face...versus one with a roman head and a terrible body...I would probably go with the great body. Notice I didnt say a concave forehead.

That make sense?


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## toth boer goats

Scrotum splits: Are there many ennobled goats that have severe splits? 

Another question: Why do shows allow the Bucks to go last? I ask because the Does, we know some are in season, throw their scent all over and the bucks smell that and get a bit riled, so, by the end of the day, when it is their turn, they are not wanting to corporate, just curious?

Also, it concerns me with show rules, health inspections, some shows are allowing in CL lump goats and other illnesses in the shows or they are slipping through the cracks. 
Judges also open each mouth of every goat with no new gloves for each or washing their hands ect.
I do not want to attend shows anymore because of this scare. This is a concern by a lot of breeders lately.


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## SunnydaleBoers

toth boer goats said:


> Also, it concerns me with show rules, health inspections, some shows are allowing in CL lump goats and other illnesses in the shows or they are slipping through the cracks.


That is concerning- especially when you consider that some shows draw people from across the country. I'm assuming not every show has a vet doing health checks, but CL type lumps, lice, and most symptoms of major illness are pretty darn obvious!


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## JT3

No buck is eligible to pass visual inspection with a split in the scrotum of 2" or more. Therefore, they will not be ennobled if they have that issue.

It is up to the individual owner and the show staff to determine what the health status is of the animals present. Hopefully most owners have the decency to not show or the staff will not let them show...if this has happened I encourage you to approach the show secretary and tell them of the issue and the threat it poses to the people and animals.

As for teeth...when I look at teeth I do not touch the insides of the mouth or the gums. If I do, I carry hand sanitizer to remedy such occasions.


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## Crossroads Boers

Hi John, 

I've been lurking on this thread and love that you are willing and able to help out with questions. I know you are very busy, so we are grateful that you chose to spend some time on here! Thank you very much! I hope to meet you at a show sometime.  We are out in WA state.


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## JT3

Hope to meet you sometime soon as well and you are quite welcome! 

I was out that way not long ago in Spokane, maybe 2 years? Beautiful state.


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## Crossroads Boers

I would have to agree.  ^ We are on the other side of the mountains from Spokane... in the "evergreen" part of WA!


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## toth boer goats

Thanks JT3 for the info, it is greatly appreciated.


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## toth boer goats

Have a question about toplines. 
As you know, toplines on kids who are growing, can be off a bit. 
I would like to know, why they are judged so harshly, if the kid is at a growing spurt, sort to speak. Just in time for a show? Ugg~!
So they are placed lower because of it. 
Adults I can see why, but for young kids, I see it as a bit unfair, if you will. 

I would love your intake on it.


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## JT3

Really depends on the individual. Some judges may have taken that into account way more than they should have. I normally give goats that fall in a certain age range a bit of a break when it comes to being downhill, uphill, etc.

That being said...if they are weak and low behind the shoulders then you have a conformation issue and not just an age issue. I can look past downhill or uphill running toplines but its really tough to look over one that is weak behind the shoulders. this mainly shows up in does and will continue to get worse over time.

Is that what you meant? uphill and downhill?


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## Crossroads Boers

I have also wondered the same thing... I have a young doe (5 months) who has placed in the top 3 at almost every show she's been to, in VERY competitive classes. She's a lovely doe in every way except her top... she breaks a touch behind her shoulder, which I've always noticed, but no judge has ever brought up or seemed to notice. Actually she is the doe in my avatar picture, so it's noticeable sometimes... and other times not. She's growing daily! 

I showed this doe last weekend, and on day 1 she took 2nd to last out of a pretty big class. Doelings who hardly had anything going for them (IMO) were in front of her... I was anxiously waiting to hear what reason the judge placed her so far back for... and the ONLY thing he said was "this doe doesn't have the strong top like the does ahead of her do". So weak chines was a huge issue for him. 

The next day she won her class and was jr. grand... 

So apparently, just like you said John, some judges have a problem with it or take more account of it, and others don't seem to mind! At least in these younger kid classes. 

It bothers me a lot when I see a weak top behind the shoulders, but I think it definitely should be judged on more in the older doe classes than the younger.


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## JT3

I dont see a ton of weakness in that does topline...but maybe its just the pic as well.

but thats my two cents...and yes, glad you understand the age part of my opinion.


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## bgr09

I was wondering what you think of this doe?


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## bgr09




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## JT3

I wish she had more hip...in that picture she looks very light in the rear end.

She looks long and I really like her neck length and how it ties into her shoulder.

but I think the main issue here is that light hip.


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## quarteracreranch

Please check this buck and let me know if this would be a disqualification for ABGA? And have you ever seen this before? Another member has mentioned to me that he may have a condition called "stringhalt." Can a boer goat get this? He is in no pain and he does not do this when he is running. He only throws his back leg when he walks slow. Is it hereditary? Thank you for you time.


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## JT3

Not a DW at all. It is basically a nerve issue that can come from a few things either a.) plants b.) trauma to the region or c.) a tissue that is not functioning correctly.

It is certainly not a DQ fault though as a lot of animals I have seen may have this condition...and it eventually has subsided.

It is not hereditary. Have you tried removing him off pasture and seeing if it changes or goes away? how long has this been going on? 

Sometimes it goes away on its on if you remove them from pasture.

It happens a lot in horses and is more common there but they are more readily free to operate or give injections to treat the ailment.

I dont think it is a big issue though that you should worry with but it is indeed stringhalt. That is one long bodied buck.


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## Scottyhorse

So I got my first Boer doe about a week ago  What do you think of her? She is aprx. 8 months old and is obviously a %. I don't like how she looks a little thin (I can pick her up and I am not super strong) so tomorrow I will be getting her some new feed and working on building up her muscle mass. I am ALSO wondering, at shows (sadly I will only be able to show her at fairs, she is not registered, and I am pretty sure you can register the does as foundation does, right?) do you need to brace them at all? I am working on getting her set up, but when I go to brace her, she scrunches herself up and squats! She'll also just keep walking backwards... Doesn't care about heights. 
Anyways sorry for the novel. Haha.
I also really need to get a picture of her walking, this picture makes her look like her rump is steep (it is, depending on how she's standing) short bodied and has no brisket. But I just wanted to see what you think.
Thanks!


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## ptgoats45

On the buck that walks funny, I've had a couple horses over the years that had locking stifles. It really helped them if they were exercised for about 20 minutes per day and was really good to make them go up and down a hill and over cavallettis (poles that are raised off the ground). Backing them would help get them out of it too if the stifle was locked up too much. Basically what happens in a horse is the ligament that runs over their knee (stifle) slips into the "lock" position when it shouldn't. Since horses sleep standing up their legs are made to "lock" so that they don't fall down and due to this that ligament is sometimes loose and causes the leg to lock up when they are moving. You can correct it in a horse by either injecting sterile iodine (done by a vet) into the ligament, which basically causes it to swell up a little and scar so that it is a little bigger and doesn't move as easy, or by doing surgery where they shorten the ligament.

On the little doe, she looks like a nice young doe, she does need some feed but now that she is in your care she should look way better in a few months. I've never seen breeding does braced before they are usually just set up and shown that way.


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## Scottyhorse

In 4H, sometimes the judges have you brace the does... I just want to be prepared so in case a judge DOES ask me, I don't have to say "uhh, umm, she doesn't brace" LOL.


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## Crossroads Boers

ptgoats45 said:


> On the little doe, she looks like a nice young doe, she does need some feed but now that she is in your care she should look way better in a few months. I've never seen breeding does braced before they are usually just set up and shown that way.


I agree! ^

That's what I said on a different thread... I've never seen it done but I've never watched a 4-h show either! So I guess it would be a good thing to learn if there is a chance you could get asked. I think it's weird for a judge to ask that in a breeding class...


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## Scottyhorse

I mean, as long as I am not in showmanship, would it even hurt my score if she doesn't brace? :shrug:


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## toth boer goats

It may or may not, depending on the judge.

The Doe herself is usually judged, not if she braces. 
Also, depending on the Doe, it won't matter, if the judge doesn't get that brace.


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## Scottyhorse

toth boer goats said:


> It may or may not, depending on the judge.
> 
> The Doe herself is usually judged, not if she brace.
> Also, depending on the Doe, it won't matter, if the judge doesn't get that brace.


I'll keep trying with her but I honestly don't think she's gunna ever brace! :ROFL:


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## wildegoats0426

What do you think of this doe? She is a fullblood march kid


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## JT3

That % doe is deep bodied, I like that about her...pour the feed and see how she fills out.

as for bracing...what judge in his right mind makes a breeding doe brace? I dont get that...they should know the separation that exist but I guess all judges arent created equal.

The last doe pictured...is that the same doe that is on the trailer? she looks her best there for some reason...the other pics she looks good but she needs to have a hair cut on the back side, mainly the tail and down where the hip meets the hock. It would make her look better because now she looks flat hipped. In the trailer pic she is fairly slick and it looks more round...see the difference?


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## Scottyhorse

We got a 50 lb bag or Purina Noble Goat Chow today. It's 'for dairy goats' but it's all our tiny feed store had for goats right now. It's 16% protein and I *think* 8% fat (I would need to look) so I don't see why I couldn't feed it to her. We'll be going to a larger feed store on Friday so I can get something else there too, maybe calf manna. I am excited to see how she fills out! When I first brought her home, she was eating probably close to 10 lbs of alfalfa a day for a couple days... Don't think she was getting a whole lot of hay at her old home.
ETA- Thanks for that note about bracing. I don't get it either, and I am a total newbie when it comes to Boers!


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## wildegoats0426

JT3 said:


> That % doe is deep bodied, I like that about her...pour the feed and see how she fills out. as for bracing...what judge in his right mind makes a breeding doe brace? I dont get that...they should know the separation that exist but I guess all judges arent created equal. The last doe pictured...is that the same doe that is on the trailer? she looks her best there for some reason...the other pics she looks good but she needs to have a hair cut on the back side, mainly the tail and down where the hip meets the hock. It would make her look better because now she looks flat hipped. In the trailer pic she is fairly slick and it looks more round...see the difference?


Yes I do see that. We are showing on Oct 17 and will trim her then


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## JT3

I'm back! Gonna sort through some PMs and answer questions in here.

Sorry for the hiatus, had some glaring farm issues that were pressing and getting online was the last of those worries.

Ask away! 

Also, as a side note...if you ever conduct a show, please please pay your judge...Im having to take out legal work on a show in Ohio that is being reluctant.


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Could you give a critique on the 2 doelings in the following threads?

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/last-one-critique-75-boer-doeling-159174/
http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f231/critique-75-boer-doeling-159173/

I'm trying to upload new pictures of them...


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## Cedar Point Kikos

Thanks! 
Which one would be better to keep? Or would you like more/better pictures?


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## Used2bmimi

Hi! Thanks again for doing this. This is one of my favorite threads. ABGA states that blue eyes are a DQ. Does that include all eyes that have any blue? I am asking because I have a fabulous doeling that has a rim of blue around her pupil, but most of the eye is brown. In the pic it is hard to see the color, but when you look at her you see a definite flash of blue. So, do I have an unshowable doeling here?


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## agilitymaster01

Welcome!! 

My sister and I are just getting started in showing in this year and it is good to know if I have questions you are willing to help.  :thumbup:


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## Tenacross

Used2bmimi said:


> Hi! Thanks again for doing this. This is one of my favorite threads. ABGA states that blue eyes are a DQ. Does that include all eyes that have any blue? I am asking because I have a fabulous doeling that has a rim of blue around her pupil, but most of the eye is brown. In the pic it is hard to see the color, but when you look at her you see a definite flash of blue. So, do I have an unshowable doeling here?


Going by the picture of this beautiful headed doeling, I would be *shocked* if she were to be DQd for her "eyes". But I'm not JTIII.


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## Dani-1995

Call the ABGA and ask them to be sure. I think it is kind of neat looking but I'm not sure exactly how strict they are blue eyes. 

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Goat Forum mobile app


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## JT3

That eye is absolutely fine...There are no DQ worries with that...and for the record, you will know when you see blue eyes...if you've never seen it before. There is no confusion. She looks great!

example.


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## nancy d

*Here's my boy*


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## JT3

Would you like me to evaluate him or simply placing him here for comparison of others?

lol im confused.


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## nancy d

Evaluation please & thanks JT.


eta click to enlarge


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## Used2bmimi

Tenacross said:


> Going by the picture of this beautiful headed doeling, I would be *shocked* if she were to be DQd for her "eyes". But I'm not JTIII.





JT3 said:


> That eye is absolutely fine...There are no DQ worries with that...and for the record, you will know when you see blue eyes...if you've never seen it before. There is no confusion. She looks great!
> 
> example.


Thanks! Yes I have seen full blue eyes before and hers are not that,...but it is just disconcerting to see "Frankie" run by and notice the blue in her eyes in the sunlight. I am glad to hear that it is not a DQ.

Thanks or your input Tenacross, I will have to post a pic of her for critique when the mud here dries a bit and she looks a bit less like a mud ball.


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## agilitymaster01

We have a buckling whose breeding future is hanging in the balance. If you don't mind, I am going to try to get photos tomorrow night and post them on here for your opinions. We make him a weather next Monday if he doesn't make the cut.


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## Crossroads Boers

I have a question...  Is it *ok* to help lead a goat in the ring with a handful of grain? I know it could depend on the judge... I have never seen it done before and I know how extremely unprofessional it would look, but what would be your thoughts on that? I have this doe who does not lead at all... she stands perfectly, but won't lead. I have shown her all her life and she used to lead well, but has gotten worse every time I work with her and we are now at a standstill with any progress. She's a coming yearling doe and is getting harder and harder to drag around. She plants her feet and looks like she is falling apart as I try to lead her in the ring and at home. She walks really nice if I keep some grain in my hand and nonchalantly lead her around with that. I don't want to get kicked out of the show though...


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## JT3

^^ def show me some pictures and I will be as honest as I can with you. I like profile pics, front and rear view as well as some random non set up natural pics if you can.

Crossroads--I think that is fine as long as its not Ungodly like a bucket...I would be more than happy for you to ease your frustration and stress and seemingly hers as well, if you just have a handful of grain or whatever small items/treats may work. Lead away.


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## Scottyhorse

That's good to know


----------



## Crossroads Boers

Okay, that's good to know.  Thanks!


----------



## ptgoats45

Crossroads Boers said:


> I have a question...  Is it *ok* to help lead a goat in the ring with a handful of grain? I know it could depend on the judge... I have never seen it done before and I know how extremely unprofessional it would look, but what would be your thoughts on that? I have this doe who does not lead at all... she stands perfectly, but won't lead. I have shown her all her life and she used to lead well, but has gotten worse every time I work with her and we are now at a standstill with any progress. She's a coming yearling doe and is getting harder and harder to drag around. She plants her feet and looks like she is falling apart as I try to lead her in the ring and at home. She walks really nice if I keep some grain in my hand and nonchalantly lead her around with that. I don't want to get kicked out of the show though...


I wish more people tried to use a little grain to lead their goats. It would be a lot better than them screaming and throwing a fit because they don't want to lead. Kind of like in dog shows how they keep treats to get the dogs attention.

I have a question  I got a registered doe kid, mostly for use in my commercial herd but she is nice and if I can show her I might. The only problem, she has 2 teats on one side (both clean and of equal size) and 3 on the other. As best as I can tell the one towards the back and the one towards the front have orifices and are similarly sized, the one in the middle does not appear to have an orifice and is smaller than the other two. I looked on ABGA and it looks like she should be legal, but I don't want to take her to a show and find out she isn't and get DQ'd. I might just wait until she has kidded once to make for sure that the 3rd isn't going to produce milk, I can't see an orifice, but my eyes have deceived me before. All three of these teats are also cleanly spaced, with obvious definition between them. If I can catch her I'll try to get a pic.


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## JT3

Please do...if its only two milk channels you should be fine...you just have to watch judges and make sure THEY know the rules...a lot of judges simply overlook things like that or make assumptions and forget the standards by accident or lack of studying. 

Pictures are the best way to tell though.


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## agilitymaster01

This will have to be in a couple of messages. Sorry. I am gonna try to do each goat on their own message.


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## agilitymaster01

Buckling 2


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## agilitymaster01

Buckling 3. Sorry if these are sideways. My sister was in charge of the camera.


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## agilitymaster01

Doeling 1


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## agilitymaster01

Doeling 2


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## agilitymaster01

Doeling 3


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## agilitymaster01

These are the best photos I could get in short time. Sorry if they are fuzzy.


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## Scottyhorse

I've got a question for you... Kinda odd but here goes. What should a well conditioned, show doe feel like? She is not a wether doe. I know when the judges feel the goat they are feeling for something... But what should that feel like? She has a lot of hair, A LOT, so it's hard to tell whats hair, and whats fat and muscle. Also, how should I clip her? I have NO idea how to clip a Boer doe... Lol.


----------



## JT3

Yeah that was a bit tough to see with the Angles...also, I hope that the snow/wet legs are making them squat like that. I really like the Doe. The last one posted...so far she appears to be the best one to me...shes really wide and deep. My least fav is the light headed one. just a little light bodied for me.

Those angles are tough, i may try to look at them on my phone to swap them around.


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## Used2bmimi

One more question for you JT. We have a buckling (soon to be wether) that was born with a parrot mouth. We mentally put him aside for freezer camp and marked his mama for the meat goat herd. However, he is growing to be the widest topped, biggest kid in the herd. He would make a really nice wether for someone to compete with in market classes. I know that in breed classes, he would DQ but can he be successfully be shown in market classes if his other conformation and muscling are superior?


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## Scottyhorse

I know that in 4-H (if that is what he would go in) here they make sure the bite is ok..


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## Dani-1995

Used2bmimi said:


> One more question for you JT. We have a buckling (soon to be wether) that was born with a parrot mouth. We mentally put him aside for freezer camp and marked his mama for the meat goat herd. However, he is growing to be the widest topped, biggest kid in the herd. He would make a really nice wether for someone to compete with in market classes. I know that in breed classes, he would DQ but can he be successfully be shown in market classes if his other conformation and muscling are superior?


If he is very nice and his mouth didn't bother him ad far as eating and drinking then I would show him. I've seen them be shown before but I don't know if it's frowned upon.... I'd like to know that too

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## wildegoats0426

Here the parrot mouth isn't a big deal when showing. But if a parrot mouth is in a class of livestock judging animals it's noted and definitely talked about in the reasons room


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## Crossroads Boers

ptgoats45 said:


> I wish more people tried to use a little grain to lead their goats. It would be a lot better than them screaming and throwing a fit because they don't want to lead. Kind of like in dog shows how they keep treats to get the dogs attention.


 Well, we'll see how it goes I guess.  My doe who is hard to lead doesn't scream or choke... she just plants her feet and leans back on them with all her weight... then stutters around the ring like a rabbit as I try to lead her. She is SO stubborn! I've tried pressure and release like I'm used to with horses, and she won't give her self a release. I would stand there pulling on her with all I had and she would just lean back and relax as I'm starting to sweat. Crazy goat. I even tried that with a full prong collar and she doesn't care in the slightest. She doesn't even choke like the others would.


----------



## BrileyGoats

Go figure-our Claire fights and drags and chokes and bawls to get into the ring. Once she's in there, she prances around like a princess. However at the state 4-H show this week-she fought my son the whole way through! Wouldn't you know - He handled it well though. I'm thinking maybe it was her time of the month? She bit and pawed and butted anything next to her-very unusual. She even escaped her pen in the barn-cleared the top like a champion dressage horse lol. We're thinking of a new category-Performance!


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## wildegoats0426

Crossroads Boers said:


> Well, we'll see how it goes I guess.  My doe who is hard to lead doesn't scream or choke... she just plants her feet and leans back on them with all her weight... then stutters around the ring like a rabbit as I try to lead her. She is SO stubborn! I've tried pressure and release like I'm used to with horses, and she won't give her self a release. I would stand there pulling on her with all I had and she would just lean back and relax as I'm starting to sweat. Crazy goat. I even tried that with a full prong collar and she doesn't care in the slightest. She doesn't even choke like the others would.


I have one the same way but sometimes she'll throw a jump in there. I used a prong collar and she doesn't care!


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## agilitymaster01

JT3 said:


> Yeah that was a bit tough to see with the Angles...also, I hope that the snow/wet legs are making them squat like that. I really like the Doe. The last one posted...so far she appears to be the best one to me...shes really wide and deep. My least fav is the light headed one. just a little light bodied for me.
> 
> Those angles are tough, i may try to look at them on my phone to swap them around.


Thanks. They are not use to standing on slippery surfaces, and having their heads held up by people. They are squirmy little buggers  I tried to flip the photos around, but my phone kept throwing them back to their original direction. :\ The Buck weighs 20lbs, and the doe weighs 17.5lbs. They were born on the 20th of January.


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## Scottyhorse

This is the doe I PM'd you pictures of a while back, but these are from today. What do you think? I just put her on grain because the first show is about 2 months away  I had to get the pictures and set her up myself, so some of them aren't the best.




























She was standing funny in this picture, she doesn't really toe out like that. 







And then the old picture for reference  
What do you think? Still looking good?


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## JohnJ

I have a kid I was hoping to show as a wether later this year. The problem is one of his ears is quite a bit smaller than the other. Is this an automatic disqualification?


----------



## jac-k

I'm new to board goes and I'm looking in investing in some I understand quite a bit more about their body build that you're looking for but what about color and different patterns?

Sent from my C811 4G using Goat Forum mobile app


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## JT3

I will get a few of these answered tomorrow. Been a busy last few days with the weather finally letting up and getting warm(er)

Sorry for the delay guys and gals.


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## Scottyhorse

No problem. Thanks again for starting this thread


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## JT3

Let me try to answer these in order:



> I've got a question for you... Kinda odd but here goes. What should a well conditioned, show doe feel like? She is not a wether doe. I know when the judges feel the goat they are feeling for something... But what should that feel like? She has a lot of hair, A LOT, so it's hard to tell whats hair, and whats fat and muscle. Also, how should I clip her? I have NO idea how to clip a Boer doe... Lol.


The best thing and most ideal way to determine if your doe or market animal is in good condition or finish(these terms are used interchangeably but should NOT be...one relates to breeding and the latter to market) is to do the hand test.

If you rub the back of your hand...right about halfway on the other side of your palm...you can barelyyyy feel bones, but the bones are present. that is ideal condition. Now, on a goat the best place to feel and match the condition/finish is right behind the armpit where the first 3-5 ribs are. If it matches up to the back of your hand you're in good shape. If it feels like your knuckles and super boney...the goat is too green or under conditioned. If it feels like your wrist and you cant feel any bones...the goat is fat.

does this make sense? I tried to clarify as best I could.

MOST judges won't feel of a BREEDING animal...I rarely do unless I have an idea they are trying to hide something with hair. Most of the time I can use other factors to tell how wide, narrow or fat a goat is such as when they track and how they stand.


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## JT3

As for clipping...this is a pretty good summary and intro as to what to do with a goat in terms of clipping. You cant hear what he is saying but you can get the general idea.


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## JT3

> One more question for you JT. We have a buckling (soon to be wether) that was born with a parrot mouth. We mentally put him aside for freezer camp and marked his mama for the meat goat herd. However, he is growing to be the widest topped, biggest kid in the herd. He would make a really nice wether for someone to compete with in market classes. I know that in breed classes, he would DQ but can he be successfully be shown in market classes if his other conformation and muscling are superior


as crude as this sounds...have you ever ate goat head? or goat mouth?

As far as market animals go...he could be missing all his teeth and it would not matter. Mouths in the market aspect have no effect on the outcome and placing.

If they can get from the meal to the wheel(harvest truck) then they are fine by me.

Normally most mouth problem goats do not eat well and have a hard time chewing/eating. This sounds like its not a problem with this guy...he should be fine.


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## agilitymaster01

We have purchased a nice boer doe 98% sure she is 100% boer., and we have recently A/I'd her to 2TNL Go Dog Go (a really nice buck!). I know the buck is registered, but our doe is not. Is there a way to get the kids, and or doe registered without past pedigrees? (Sorry...I am new to the goat breeding terminology. I am use to dog, so I know Pedegree. Sorry if it is something else.







) These are really going to be some OUTSTANDING kids I think/hope.







Thanks for your help.


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## JT3

> And then the old picture for reference
> What do you think? Still looking good?


still looking good just make sure she does not get fat. It may just be the winter coat throwing it off.


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## JT3

> I have a kid I was hoping to show as a wether later this year. The problem is one of his ears is quite a bit smaller than the other. Is this an automatic disqualification?


as I stated...in a market class ears, head etc should have no importance at all. These are animals we are looking to evaluate and determine which has the most meat and carcass merit...not which is the prettiest.

That ear should be just fine. If you are paranoid about it, whomever is showing it needs to keep that ear/side of the head really close to their body to hide it or simply cover it up with their hand when they are square.


----------



## JT3

> I'm new to board goes and I'm looking in investing in some I understand quite a bit more about their body build that you're looking for but what about color and different patterns?


Color and patterns do not matter when it comes to Boer goats, fullblood/purebred can be red, spotted, all white, red and white...whatever.

I tend to think if they are BLACK and considered 100% someone fibbed on the previous generations pedigree...black is a spanish color, not boer. but thats just my two cents. I still will judge a black goat as equally as a traditional one since color does not matter.


----------



## JT3

> We have purchased a nice boer doe 98% sure she is 100% boer., and we have recently A/I'd her to 2TNL Go Dog Go (a really nice buck!). I know the buck is registered, but our doe is not. Is there a way to get the kids, and or doe registered without past pedigrees? (Sorry...I am new to the goat breeding terminology. I am use to dog, so I know Pedegree. Sorry if it is something else. ) These are really going to be some OUTSTANDING kids I think/hope. Thanks for your help.


Check her ears on the inside for tattoos..if she has tattoos she has paper work and then you can register the kids quite easily. It may be hard to find, sometimes using a flashlight helps see the tattoos.

As far as registering...if you do not have papers or tattoos on her and the buck is full 100% with papers then you would have percentage kids. They would not be able to be registered as fullblood.

check for tattoos and hope you get lucky!


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## Scottyhorse

Thank you! Very helpful!


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## agilitymaster01

I will double check, but I am pretty sure there are no tattoos. I know I checked when we got her, and didn't see anything.  So being registered as percentage kids, will all of the offsprings be considered percentage then, and can they still be shown? 

Sorry if these questions seem cliché. I tried asking the ABGA but they never returned my email after 2 months now, and two tries. I don't know of anyone in our area that has registered FB boer does. I will have to do some searching and see what I can find.


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## JT3

Eventually when they get on down the line you can register the offspring as purebred. They will always be "percentage" but once they get past I think its like 94% boer, they consider them purebred.

This should help a bit:
http://www.abga.org/page.php?pageid=7


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## agilitymaster01

So how do we know what percentage she would be, and do we have to have her looked over to decide if she is boer or not. 

(dogs for instance we have to send in photos, measurements, and descriptions for them to review and decide if the breed you are trying to register the dog as is accurate. I.E. matches standard if the dog is not born as a pedigreed dog)


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## JT3

It will be her offspring that you are registering, correct?

The buck is 100% which means no matter what she is (could be dairy) the offspring will be at least 50%. 

The only way to determine if she is higher than 50% is to have a record of her parents breeding.

otherwise its a crap shoot.


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## agilitymaster01

OK. Now it makes sense...Thanks! So just to be clear...Her offspring/s will be 50% if I breed them to 100% boer than they would be 75% and so on, or does it not progress that fast? Sorry to ask so many questions.


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## JT3

it would be 1/2 boer...then 3/4 then 7/8 then 15/16 and then you've reached that 94% threshold


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## agilitymaster01

Ok. Thanks I really appreciate it. That helps! Again sorry for sounding so green.


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## JT3

Not at all...thats what the thread and this forum are for. You gotta find out the answers somehow!


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## Used2bmimi

Thank you JT3. I appreciate your opinion.


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## jac-k

Me too I had a lot of the same questions.... I have two nice built does that are registered and then the percentage but a very young gorgeous book that is a hundred percent I can't wait till he's ready to make the herd bigger 

Sent from my C811 4G using Goat Forum mobile app


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## jac-k

I do have one question and this is probably a dumb one but I'm going to ask... Is there such thing as a bore go being too big and I'm not talking about fat.

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----------



## BCG

JT3 said:


> Let me try to answer these in order:
> 
> The best thing and most ideal way to determine if your doe or market animal is in good condition or finish(these terms are used interchangeably but should NOT be...one relates to breeding and the latter to market) is to do the hand test.
> 
> If you rub the back of your hand...right about halfway on the other side of your palm...you can barelyyyy feel bones, but the bones are present. that is ideal condition. Now, on a goat the best place to feel and match the condition/finish is right behind the armpit where the first 3-5 ribs are. If it matches up to the back of your hand you're in good shape. If it feels like your knuckles and super boney...the goat is too green or under conditioned. If it feels like your wrist and you cant feel any bones...the goat is fat.
> 
> does this make sense? I tried to clarify as best I could.
> 
> MOST judges won't feel of a BREEDING animal...I rarely do unless I have an idea they are trying to hide something with hair. Most of the time I can use other factors to tell how wide, narrow or fat a goat is such as when they track and how they stand.


What is the reason for checking fat cover behind the shoulder rather than the back of the ribs (12-13th rib)?

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## JT3

The ribs put on fat from front to back...so it takes awhile for the last ones to get fatty...and by that time the Internal fat is ridiculous.

as for "too big" of a goat, yes...the breed standards use the words "well" and "good" not HUGE and OMG...if that makes sense. We dont want bodybuilder goats.


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## BCG

Good to know. LOL

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## JT3

Well, I was on the list for national judges but did not get selected. A little disappointed but I suppose it was an honor to even be considered. Here's to working harder this year and making sure I am a top candidate for next years national show.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Sorry you didn't get picked, hopefully they pick you next year! 

I have a question, sort of regarding the last question... is there a hight and weight standard? They have minimum size requirements for the dairy goats, but I've seen nothing for the Boers.


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## Crossroads Boers

Wow, yes what an honor to even be considered. Hopefully next year! I keep hoping one of the shows around here asks you to be a judge... I want to hear you judge in person.


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## JT3

I would love to get back out that way...I really enjoyed the show I judged in Spokane.

As for minimum or max standards, no. Thats the simple answer, however, the breed standards push for a goat that has balance in every aspect. As in not too tall and not too short.

I always say that if you have a goat that is good in all areas...you have the perfect goat. It will never happen...but that is the idea. 

I hope that helps...no real weight or size requirements but still there is some wording that leads you in that direction.


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## Dani-1995

How do they pick nationals judges? I thought there was a ballot sent out but I never received one. It's OK though because I can't make it out to Nebraska anyway

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## JT3

I could have made it out there lol.

But yes, they send out ballots. If you participated in last years national show I think you are sent a ballot...at least thats how it used to be done.


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## Dani-1995

Better luck next year! 

That makes sense. I've never done nationals... might have to once they're a little closer to home. 

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----------



## Crossroads Boers

Nebraska is the closest to Washington Nationals has been for a while. I'm hoping we can make it this time. It would be a good experience and a lot of fun!


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## JT3

bttt


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## JT3

bump


----------



## nancy d

*Two Spot*







click to enlarge any~


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## nancy d

*Two Spot Going, Scrambled Ears Coming*




Two Spot Sis 


Capable Girl


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## nancy d

*Rimfire's Trip D's*



Capable Girl, Two Spot, Scrambled Ears


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## nancy d

*Shotgun's Pesto*


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## JT3

Which one were you wanting evaluated? the two spot?


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## nancy d

Sure, Two Spot when you have time. Not real good pictures but I was on a roll by myself with camera.


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## loggyacreslivestock

Here is my buck kid for evaluation. I would like to show him in two weeks at an ABGA show. He did jump when I was trimming above his hip, so you can see a notch there. He is 5 months old. He weighs 92 pounds.


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## clingenpeel

Could you evaluate my buck please? Don't sugar coat it, I can take it. DOB Oct of 2012, pics taken 6/24/14. I just clipped him (in low light conditions) last night with 1/4" blade. Thanks!
































Hope these pics are revealing enough. He doesn't like to pose.

Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## clingenpeel

This might be a better pic of his top line showing a drop behind the shoulders. He doesn't have much length either. He's my first and only buck right now. Just curious what someone in the know would say about him. I plan to upgrade next year but I'll hang on to this one as well. Thanks Again


----------



## JT3

> Two Spot when you have time


Ok, she's a long bodied and wide topped doe from what I can in the pics. I really like how she is square bodied and maintains her depth on both the profile and the rearview. She's very wide based which is a good thing. I like the depth and volume she carries through her midsection. If there is anything on her that I'm not too terribly big on its her head(although its hard to judge in the pics) She is fairly thick necked and I would imagine a bit flat in her forehead. If you could round her head out it would help out alot. Def want to show off the width that she carries from front to back. That's hard to put on a doe.


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## JT3

> Here is my buck kid for evaluation.


 I think he is fantastic on the rear view...extremely wide and heavy muscled in his forearm when viewed from the front. He isn't extremely deep in his heart girth but he is quite long bodied, lean and elegant in his head and neck. He seems to be styled after the more "modern" bucks that caught fire a few years ago.

I don't particularly like his hip. I think its a bit too straight. I would really try and trim some of that hair to make it look like it has more shape on the side profile.

Otherwise he is a good quality buck, just hope he fills out in masculinity as he gets older.


----------



## JT3

> Could you evaluate my buck please? Don't sugar coat it, I can take it.


I dont think he is short by any means...he is not the longest buck I've ever seen but not short. I think he is really wide topped, especially right behind his shoulders and seems to maintain that width over his loin.

What I would really like to see is more muscle in his hip and forearm. Especially the lower one third of his leg/body. He is a bit light in the rear in terms of muscle.

__________________________________________________________________

Keep the questions coming folks! I don't mind. Sorry it took so long to reply, got back into the horse business and that has taken my time(along with a woman...men, I'm sure you understand)

Hope this helps!


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## nancy d

Thank you JT3! They will be going to Puyallup in Sept & have not been out yet. Four does out of two dams & looking fwd to seeing how they do.


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## RaineyDayFarms

Subbing. For when I get pics of my girls.


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## spidy1

I would love to have you look at my new buck!!! He is 5 months, What do you think! ( the lighting on his scrotum makes it look funny)


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## JT3

I really like how wide topped he is and how he gets wider as you go from shoulders back to the tail head. That width is also evident in that front view and from behind in the lower one third of the leg. means he has potential to put on a lot of natural muscle from end to end. He is a bit plain about his head but in no ways Ill about his head as in...his head isn't ugly but not the best ever. about in the middle. 

I think he is plenty wide but I'd really like to see more length on his body on the side profile, in terms of skeletal extension. He looks a bit short sided. To contrast that when you show him, make sure you spread him out very well...dont just have him square and natural in his stance...extend those legs on out and make him appear longer.


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## spidy1

Thank you!!!


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## Crossroads Boers

What do you think of this doe? We just got her about 2 weeks ago.


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## crazygoatlady_inthemaking

Hey sorry to but in on here but can you judge my 4 month old doe? Shes a full blood boer and i show her in market shows. She weighed 59 lbs last saturday. IMO my doe drinks water like its her last drink and gulps it down. 







**this is a really bad picture because (after exercising) she drank like a whole bucket of water and she was bloated bad**














**same thing with the first picture**

Thank you in advance


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## JT3

> What do you think of this doe? We just got her about 2 weeks ago


I really like this doe, saw her in another thread. She looks a bit young but I'll go and critique then tell you what I'd do to make her look a bit better.

I think she is extremely long bodied on the side profile and that is what I really like about her. She has a great balance from end to end and puts everything together quite well in terms of width, volume, muscle and breed standard. She is really wide made on the front end and clean through that chest floor and maintains that width through her body, especially in the lower part of the hip.

I hope in time and I'm sure she will, that she gets a bit deeper bodied and gets a wedge type design about her. Young does dont show it as well until they age a bit but she could use a bit more depth to go along with that length.

What I would really CHANGE about her is her head and neck...she's a bit thick in her neck and it makes her head look a bit plain...but she has a good head! So its deceiving. I would really make her chin and head be held high when showing her...it will make that neck look longer and cleaner and in turn really create elegance to her when you have your hands on her.

Tremendous doe that I hope gets that depth of body to match her carcass. (and though it doesnt have anything to do with breed standards, that color fade on her hip is awesome.)


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## JT3

> can you judge my 4 month old doe?


Sure! No need to apologize for butting in...quite welcome to ask away.

It's hard to tell much about her on a muscling scale given the angles of the pics but...She is a highly balanced doe. I think she is quite well balanced from end to end and she is pretty level in her topline, she seems to be long bodied and has some depth and spring of rib that you really like. She is most likely a high volume high capacity type doe. She doesn't have the most feminine head in the world but its not masculine by any means...a normal average head.

I'd say she's fair in her muscling pattern but its hard to tell without seeing a front or rear view. She has a decent amount of forearm which indicates natural muscling throughout the body so she is most likely fine.

What I would watch and be on the look out for if you are breeding her is her pasterns. They aren't weak but they are long...long anything means weak, eventually. I don't think its a fault right now and I wouldn't comment over the mic in a ring about it but I would tell you to just be on teh lookout and keep those feet trimmed to where shes standing more on her toes to offset the long pasterns.


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## nancy d

Thanks for the info about long pasterns!


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## twokidsandafarm

Ok, I'm a super newbie to Boer goats. I might be buying a yearling percentage doe. My first question, her teat structure. On her left side she 2 teats(both functional I think), the other side has 1 functional and two non-functional. Is she show able? Also, she had been disbudded, but she grew a scur. Are Boer goats that are disbudded or have scurs placed farther down the line? I'll probably just be showing her at our county fair, but I don't want to be disqualified for anything. Thanks!

Raising ADGA Oberhasli, Alpine, and Nubians for milk, show, and fun!
www.twokidsandafarm.com


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## crazygoatlady_inthemaking

JT3 said:


> Sure! No need to apologize for butting in...quite welcome to ask away.
> 
> It's hard to tell much about her on a muscling scale given the angles of the pics but...She is a highly balanced doe. I think she is quite well balanced from end to end and she is pretty level in her topline, she seems to be long bodied and has some depth and spring of rib that you really like. She is most likely a high volume high capacity type doe. She doesn't have the most feminine head in the world but its not masculine by any means...a normal average head.
> 
> I'd say she's fair in her muscling pattern but its hard to tell without seeing a front or rear view. She has a decent amount of forearm which indicates natural muscling throughout the body so she is most likely fine.
> 
> What I would watch and be on the look out for if you are breeding her is her pasterns. They aren't weak but they are long...long anything means weak, eventually. I don't think its a fault right now and I wouldn't comment over the mic in a ring about it but I would tell you to just be on teh lookout and keep those feet trimmed to where shes standing more on her toes to offset the long pasterns.


Thanks so much she super muscle i just didn't have a good picture on my phone of her front or rear.


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## JT3

Buds are fine...so are basically any horns that arent some weird movement limiting form or fashion. The only time horns come into play is when you are going for ennoblement or inspection.

This is a good resource for teats.


__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/232076187017478741/

Sounds like she is ok.


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## twokidsandafarm

Great! Thanks!

Raising ADGA Oberhasli, Alpine, and Nubians for milk, show, and fun!
www.twokidsandafarm.com


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## spidy1

How's this for stretching? I'v never showed, and I don't have help to hold, so I tried!!!


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## JT3

The one where his head is facing forward is about right...maybe not quiteee that far, about an inch up but thats MUCH MUCH better. See how much longer he looks? In the one where he is peeing he is too stretched...notice how it makes his hip look light and less muscular?


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## spidy1

Ok, thank you, he stretched himself for that pic :lol:


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## Jessica84

This is a fun little thread going. I'm gonna keep up on this and learn. Maybe when I feel brave enough I'll post some of mine lol.


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## Riverside Fainters

I am going to have to get pictures of all my MGR does! I will be showing them in august


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## Crossroads Boers

JT3 said:


> I really like this doe, saw her in another thread. She looks a bit young but I'll go and critique then tell you what I'd do to make her look a bit better.
> 
> I think she is extremely long bodied on the side profile and that is what I really like about her. She has a great balance from end to end and puts everything together quite well in terms of width, volume, muscle and breed standard. She is really wide made on the front end and clean through that chest floor and maintains that width through her body, especially in the lower part of the hip.
> 
> I hope in time and I'm sure she will, that she gets a bit deeper bodied and gets a wedge type design about her. Young does dont show it as well until they age a bit but she could use a bit more depth to go along with that length.
> 
> What I would really CHANGE about her is her head and neck...she's a bit thick in her neck and it makes her head look a bit plain...but she has a good head! So its deceiving. I would really make her chin and head be held high when showing her...it will make that neck look longer and cleaner and in turn really create elegance to her when you have your hands on her.
> 
> Tremendous doe that I hope gets that depth of body to match her carcass. (and though it doesnt have anything to do with breed standards, that color fade on her hip is awesome.)


Thank you! I was curious to hear a detailed critique on her. I'm glad you mentioned holding her head high as I wasn't sure if I should or not. I haven't been... Interesting about her lacking some depth of body too as I hadn't noticed that. Now that you mention it, I do see what you mean. That should come with age or after she kids I hope. She's 6-7 months old in these pictures. She is definitely on the short (low to the ground short  ) side but the goats in her classes are usually the same size. Maybe I'm dreaming but she sure seems short to me. This girl has been a great little show doe for us and her breeder with 3 Jr. grands from the 2 shows she's been to, and I hope she'll just keep getting better. Actually she's been to three shows. The first show was the ABGA Nationals where she was 4th in 37 (split class)

Thanks again! I appreciate your comment.


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## NWIndianaBoers

I have a buck that is pictured at 4.5 months old I'm interested in hearing your opinion on. We like him a lot but haven't gotten him into the ring yet so haven't been able to hear a critique from a judge


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## Tenacross

NWIndianaBoers said:


> I have a buck that is pictured at 4.5 months old I'm interested in hearing your opinion on. We like him a lot but haven't gotten him into the ring yet so haven't been able to hear a critique from a judge


I know you were wanting to hear from JT3, but while you are waiting... that's a nice buck kid. I really like how he is naturally wide fronted. He would compete well around here.


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## BrokenArrowRanch

Can I get a critique on a 4 month old doe I'm interested in?




















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## brbn

Question our market goat judge is a sheep judge also. When showing a market goat in showmanship, would you show him more like a lamb? Particularly when doing your turns and switching sides. Would you turn the goat to you or would you turn like in labs turning your body in front of the lamb and switch to the other side? Hope that makes sense.
Thank you for your answers.


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## crazygoatlady_inthemaking

brbn said:


> Question our market goat judge is a sheep judge also. When showing a market goat in showmanship, would you show him more like a lamb? Particularly when doing your turns and switching sides. Would you turn the goat to you or would you turn like in labs turning your body in front of the lamb and switch to the other side? Hope that makes sense.
> Thank you for your answers.


Since he does sheep i reccomend bracing more but idk about all of that i never showed sheep i just know they like bracing more.


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## brbn

@broken arrow ranch.

Things I like about the doe.
I like her long feminine neck and shape of her head
I like the levelness over her back
I like how her front end looks tight no excess brisket.

Things I would like to improve on her
More over all muscling 
More twist and more muscling in strife area.
Lengthen her out a bit over the hip
Larger bone mass
More forearm expression.

How are her teats?


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## Dani-1995

My experience with lamb people is they like someone who is really in tune with their animal. Everything should be really fluid and in control... just remember they're used to seeing kids show without collars. Therefore their animals have to be super well trained. and of course brace without lifting


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## JT3

> have a buck that is pictured at 4.5 months old I'm interested in hearing your opinion on.


Dont have a true side view so its hard to tell his head shape, length of body and length of hip/shoulder.

I REALLY like his front end. He is very wide and clean made through his chest floor. I like the natural thickness of bone that he carries especially right above his knee to his shoulder..that mean's he is going to be a hardy, thick buck on down the road. He has a lot of bulge in that forearm which also means he will have a wide loin...which he does. He has a good amount of hip but not nearly as explosive and thick muscled in his hip as he is on that front end.

The only thing I wonder with him, and its hard to see because there is no side angle...he looks a bit on the shallow side in terms of his heart girth and barrel area...maybe its just the pics?

I think he is a good buck...although I cant see his head which is a big factor. I'd show off that front end as much as possible. Really like that.


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## JT3

> Can I get a critique on a 4 month old doe I'm interested in?


I really like the feminine elegant look this doe carries. She has a lot of breed character about her head without being too fine or too masculine...she's long and lean in her neck and it blends in well to her shoulder and she carries a fairly level topline to match.

She's deep bodied as well especially in that heart girth area. She's not the widest made doe...the length of her hip is a bit questionable to me. Id like to see more length from the point of the hip back to the tailhead...creates more natural muscle in that area if the bone is longer anyways. I think she has breed character and if you pair her with a really wide and extremely high muscled buck, she'd do well.


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## JT3

> Question our market goat judge is a sheep judge also


Depends on what division you are in. If you are in a division that has people that go before you...watch them and watch what the judge seems to prefer or like. I think that either way you're going to be ok but the key is to go slow...smooth and methodical moves around the goat will help out a lot. The smoother and more like "I know what I'm doing, watch this...im smooth" you are the better off you will be. Quick and herky jerky doesn't go very well and doesnt translate to lambs either.

As for moving around...it's best to move the goat and turn them so you aren't between the judge and the animal if I am judging...but that is the issue...every judge is different.

Watch what the others are doing...really take your time in the ring. You want the judge to notice you because you are in control no matter how you move about the animal.

that help?


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## Crossroads Boers

I was at a show last weekend and the judge kept saying "this doe has good rumen development". Or something close to that.... do you know what he was meaning by that??


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## Riverside Fainters

Crossroads Boers said:


> I was at a show last weekend and the judge kept saying "this doe has good rumen development". Or something close to that.... do you know what he was meaning by that??


I wonder, does she have a biggish bump on her left side? Maybe her rumen is a little bigger?

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## Dani-1995

Crossroads Boers said:


> I was at a show last weekend and the judge kept saying "this doe has good rumen development". Or something close to that.... do you know what he was meaning by that??


How old was she? He may have meant she was nice and filled in through the middle. I personally like to see big middled does... those tubular ones don't have enough volume for multiples or even big kids. Plus a good rumen means a healthy goat.


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## Scottyhorse

I have a couple questions -
My 98% doe that is one year and 7 months old seems flat and underdeveloped on her hip/butt. She just seems to lack muscle. I hung her grain bin up on the fence so she has to stand up high to get it. 

Also- any grooming tips? How can I get her hair to look fluffier and smoother like a lot of peoples' goats?


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## JT3

> I was at a show last weekend and the judge kept saying "this doe has good rumen development"


LOL..does he/she carry a probe or something with them and can look into the GI tract of a goat? That is a ridiculous statement. I've never heard it and it makes absolutely no sense unless he is a vet that has done a visual check of the Rumen. Hopefully he meant something else or said something else.

Sometimes you just have to laugh at other judges...I'm sure I've said stupid stuff before, normally I catch myself if I do. Some just have these terms that make no sense to me but to each his own I guess. Nothing in the breed standards about rumen development.

_________________________________________________

For the doe, that helps some...some people say that exercising them increases their hip some, however it may be that you work them via walking, running, etc.

Plenty of grooming tips...but I'm not a pro at that by any means.

Fluffy deals a little with where they are kept, how you style the hair, what products you use etc. Some of it is genetic too so its a crapshoot in that case.

A healthy diet gives it that smooth look, paired with maintenance of the hair.

There are pros on here at grooming, maybe they will chime in.


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## Crossroads Boers

JT3 said:


> LOL..does he/she carry a probe or something with them and can look into the GI tract of a goat? That is a ridiculous statement. I've never heard it and it makes absolutely no sense unless he is a vet that has done a visual check of the Rumen. Hopefully he meant something else or said something else.
> 
> Sometimes you just have to laugh at other judges...I'm sure I've said stupid stuff before, normally I catch myself if I do. Some just have these terms that make no sense to me but to each his own I guess. Nothing in the breed standards about rumen development.


Haha... yeah I was cracking up every time he said it. I just wish I could remember how he was wording it exactly. Rumen development makes no sense but it was something like that. Rumen expansion maybe? He was saying it like he really liked whatever it was about the rumen. I thought it was rather funny whatever it was.


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## Crossroads Boers

Dani-1995 said:


> How old was she? He may have meant she was nice and filled in through the middle. I personally like to see big middled does... those tubular ones don't have enough volume for multiples or even big kids. Plus a good rumen means a healthy goat.


I heard him say it to our 7 month old, and to a Sr. doe for sure. A couple more times too but I wasn't watching the classes, I just heard it over the mic. That does make sense, but if I were a judge that wouldn't be a big enough issue to me to announce over the mic. But like you said John, to each his own!


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## Crossroads Boers

Scottyhorse said:


> Also- any grooming tips? How can I get her hair to look fluffier and smoother like a lot of peoples' goats?


Giving them a bath every week or so seems to help a lot with healthy/long hair. Our whole show string has fluffy hair this season and they all get baths pretty regularly. Maybe the baths have nothing to do with it, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to give that a try! We do live in the cooler part of WA and you live in the super hot side (right?) , so I would expect your doe to shed more. Fluffy hair is definitely a genetic thing too. And good feed.


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## Scottyhorse

Yep, it's been SOOOO hot here, it's miserable! Maybe I should start adding something to her feed to help with her coat. :chin:


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Crossroads Boers said:


> Haha... yeah I was cracking up every time he said it. I just wish I could remember how he was wording it exactly. Rumen development makes no sense but it was something like that. Rumen expansion maybe? He was saying it like he really liked whatever it was about the rumen. I thought it was rather funny whatever it was.


I think the words he was looking for would have been "Nice capacity" or "Good barrel" or maybe even "Nice depth of body"? :lol: 
Or maybe rumens are judged and I missed it :scratch: :lol:


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## Amandanicole

How's this doe? She's 99% ABGA registered. Born 4/6/14 weighs 54.6lbs 1x1 teat, good bite.


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## JT3

She's a good doe on the side profile. Long neck...fairly level topline...she has a lot of extension from the point of the shoulder to the point of the hip. Not shallow in the heart girth. I think she is a bit light in her muscle pattern and scope of muscle from end to end though. She isnt by any means poorly muscled, just light, especially in her forearm and a bit plain in the hip. 

Other than that, she's not bad. Maybe with some feed she can throw some red meat on? her.


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## spidy1

What about this commercial doe? I'm going to breed her to my black buck this fall, I need replacement does for my small market herd, the one in the back is not an easy keeper, so I'm thinking this one.


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## Riverside Fainters

Not sure if these pictures are good enough for this or not but it's hard to do when your by yourself.. These are all purebred myotonics
First is Oak Tree Farm Lila- she's 4 months old














Next is Oak Tree Farm Raiden- 5 months old














Next is SSR Isabell a 4yr old


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## Crossroads Boers

I have a question about sanctioned shows that I'm hoping you or someone else can answer... our fair is having a USBGA show next weekend, and according to the superintendent (who I just talked to) one of the shows is not going to sanction. The reason being one of the farms (who always brings half the barn of goats to this show) is owned by a USBGA judge. He will be judging one of the days, so he obviously can't have his goats shown that day. So, my question is, if the show doesn't have enough goats to sanction, do you still get ribbons/rosettes but no points?


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## JT3

The show should just get another judge for that show...that simple, otherwise you won't receive any kind of points or anything as far as the breed registry goes.

USBGA is a little different...mainly that you cannot be a judge for another association if you are a USBGA judge.

I'll critique those goats posted when I get a little more time this evening.


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## Crossroads Boers

The superintendent couldn't get another judge to come out. She's been trying for months.


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## Dani-1995

Quick question. I know this is kind of an opinion thing but how do you feel about youth showing does like they would wethers? If someone were to do this how would you like to see the doe fitted? The reason I ask is because I have a doe that braces like a champ (never taught her... she just does it)... like way better than any whether I've ever had. And she is kind of built like a wether- long, clean fronted and pretty level with a nice leg and top. She's just a bit fat (bought as a show doe).


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## RaineyDayFarms

Could I post pictures I found from a previous owner? They had some good ones, but I'm not sure if that's against the rules.


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## JT3

Sorry guys its been a busy busy month for me..gonna get to those pics here in a little bit.

As for bracing does...There is no benefit for doing that, honestly will probably make them look worse. All strung out and over flexed. I wouldn't recommend it for breeding does.

Feel free to post pics from whatever whenever.


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## Suzanne_Tyler

Welcome! I have a brother named John!

Can I start showing at the NC state fair, or do I need to start lower, and work up? 

(By the way, I live in Pinnacle, about 3 hours away from you, towards the border of VA)


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## Dani-1995

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Welcome! I have a brother named John!
> 
> Can I start showing at the NC state fair, or do I need to start lower, and work up?
> 
> (By the way, I live in Pinnacle, about 3 hours away from you, towards the border of VA)


The state fair isn't really huge unless your starting in market classes. Which, unless you tagged a couple weeks ago your goats would not be eligible for it. Youth commercial does is a pretty good sized show but it doesn't have as many requirements as the market show. They do tag the does, usually they will go through the scrapie tag if possible. If not just cut it out when you get home. The ABGA show is probably the smallest, which we certainly need to change, and by the time they come the barns are pretty much cleared out and it's much quieter. I will be at all the shows, except maybe the commercial show, so if you need any help feel free to let me know.

Thanks, JT3! I have the same feelings. I prefer does set up and head held high however for market classes I do brace... haven't shown one in market in forever though.


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## JT3

I'd say feel free to show at your local shows or go ahead and go for the State fair. It's really up to you...like ^she said, it depends on if it is registered or market you are looking into.


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## RaineyDayFarms

JT3-I've learned so much from this thread. Thank you


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## BCG

She's beautiful.


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## Crossroads Boers

WOW!!


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## toth boer goats

Very nice.


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## margaret

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> Welcome! I have a brother named John!
> 
> Can I start showing at the NC state fair, or do I need to start lower, and work up?
> 
> (By the way, I live in Pinnacle, about 3 hours away from you, towards the border of VA)


Suzanne has dairy goats
Are you thinking of showing this year?


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## Dani-1995

margaret said:


> Suzanne has dairy goats
> Are you thinking of showing this year?


Oops! I assumed boers since it was in the meat judge thread. I don't know anything about the dairy show and am limited in my dairy goat experience.


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## Tenacross

RaineyDayFarms said:


> Could I post pictures I found from a previous owner? They had some good ones, but I'm not sure if that's against the rules.


I like your paint doe a lot.


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## Scottyhorse

Excuse the dirt, but here is my doe. You've already seen lots of pictures of her but I am very proud of her and I want to see how she is maturing   Born end of January 2013, 98%.


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## RPC

RaineyDayFarms said:


> JT3-I've learned so much from this thread. Thank you


I love this doe she looks great


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## RaineyDayFarms

^Thanks  I love her. She has such a sweet personality. She's bit run down now from having kids and but I'm really trying to get her back up.


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## cheyennemar

How do I get a butt on this doe


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## jcarr492

John, I have a question. Our county youth fair is just finishing up for this year. Next years fair is set for October 7th, 2015. We start looking for wethers around Feb/March. What should we look for in a young goat before buying? In the past we used goats from my brother that he gives us free, boers, but they haven't been "winners". Is there somethings specific we should look for when either picking out boers from my brother or from another breeder who actually sells show stock? My brothers goats aren't bred for show stock, but we use them because they are free to our kids. So if we can continue that, I could use any and all tips in choosing better boers. 
Also, my brother will not disbud the babies. He hates to do it, so can we take them to get disbudded by a vet when they are small and return to their mommas with no problems? Tired of horned goats as my kids are always the only ones with horned goats. 
When we do get the goats around May....how often should they be working with the goats, for how long at a time. Anything specific they should start out with? What advice or tips can you offer us in walking, bracing, building muscle, etc.


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## RPC

cheyennemar said:


> How do I get a butt on this doe
> View attachment 79922
> View attachment 79923


Have you tried putting her feeder up higher so she has to stand on a board to eat? That has worked a little bit for me.


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## RPC

Scottyhorse said:


> Excuse the dirt, but here is my doe. You've already seen lots of pictures of her but I am very proud of her and I want to see how she is maturing   Born end of January 2013, 98%.


I really like her. She has a nice top line, good spring of rib, nice depth of body, and she is fairly wide threw out.


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## JT3

Ok let me try and get back to this thread. Been a tremendously busy fall for me. I've been very lucky to be so busy though. I'll try and go back through and comment to everyone that has posted stuff. We also just swapped out our genetics on our farm...I'll even post a pic of my new buck and tell you what an owner/judge sees


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## JT3

Rainey---the painted doe you had in the picture is a nice doe. She's long bodied, got some breed character and pretty feminine. I really like how square made she is from end to end and seems to have a really straight, level and strong topline. She looks to be a bit short bodied...is that the case in person? is she small in stature? otherwise she is quite nice..she's wide and muscle blends smoothly...the only thing I see that stands out is she gets a little short in the length of the hip...by that I mean where the loin and hip meet to the tail I'd like to see more length. That would naturally put more hip on that doe and even her out in terms of balance. Can you see that?


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## JT3

scottyhorse---i've always thought this doe was super feminine and you really have to like how correct she is as far as structure, topline, etc..

My only fault with her is she is light in terms of her muscle. She's just a bit narrow..I'd put her with a super muscular or super wide buck to really give the kids some size to them. If they had her body design with a wide bucks muscle, you'd be set!


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## JT3

cheyenne---its really hard to get a hip on a doe, especially as they age, just like with people they get less and less impressive in their muscle shape. Best bet is to feed her, walk/exercise and build a feed ramp...Genetics are the easiest way to improve hips and the hardest way at the same time.


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## spidy1

What do you think on this doe, I got her in a package deal so I don't know anything about her parents, she's about 8 months and standing funny in some pics...


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## JT3

jcarr--The way I tell people to look for prospects is to think in the LONG term for these animals. Most of the time the goats that look good as babies might not be the best months down the road. There are a few reasons including early maturers, access to feed, health factors, etc. so when you go and pick out goats dont always go for the biggest one in the pen. 

The easiest way to tell you to look for a goat is to think of them like a house...at this point you're look at the foundation. to build a house you have to have the right size foundation and it needs to be set properly. Same with a goat. It's hard to go back and add on additions to homes so why not look for a solid foundation to begin with?

Look at their body, frame, bone and structure. Make SURE they are level topped. Tops only get worse as a goat ages. Look at the hip, is it straight? legs ok? no structure issues? Does the goat look "pretty" or does it look like it has a shoulder from one goat and a hip from another with legs from a third? balance is the term we use for "pretty"

The final thing is to look for width, especially between the front legs. If you have two goats and one is thin at 2 months and one is wide at two months...the wide one will ALWAYS be wide. Go for width because that translates to more natural muscle throughout. Get your hands on the goats and measure...your hands wont lie. compare loin width, reach down and get a circumference reading on their forearm. Trust your hands because sometimes your eyes trick you.

the only reason to disbud is for shows, if its a terminal animal that will be used for meat. Some people leave them but if you have small kids its safer to disbud. any vet should be able to do it...or you can get a disbudder cheap online and do it yourself. youtube is a good resource. 

As for working with them...if you're around the goats every day, work with them every day. Handle them, walk them, brace them. The key right off the bat is to make sure the goat is comfortable and calm...so walk, make noise, rattle cans around them...anything to expose them to something new. 

As far as bracing, google "brace box goats(or lambs)" and to build muscle, a feed ramp would help, as well as good feed and exercise!

That was long I know...feel free to ask if you have any more questions...I feel like I rambled and skipped around.


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## JT3

spidy--i dont know much about your farm and the kids/goats you have on the property but...I like her, especially with what you have pictured. She;s got a tremendous front end on her...see how wide it is? one of the best indicators of muscle is the forearm in young goats...see how her bulges out? That's good. She may not have the most attractive head as its a bit flat but her body is solid. Good length, width front and back(i know some of its hair) and shes level topped. I think you'll really like her in a few months. I'd keep the feed to her and hope the best for that head. I'd like it to round out a bit more but overall, she's not bad to get in a package deal that you know nothing about. I bet she's got some solid bloodlines given her width upfront.


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## JT3

Ok...so here is the new guy we will have on the farm soon. I think pictures dont do him justice since he is HUGE in terms of his size to be 8 months old.

I'm going to try and walk you through what I look at when I see a buck on a farm for sale. 

I absolutely love him on the front end. He is wide, has a ton of bone and really has some forearm size that you love. He has a really nice head that is wide, big eyed, some roman shape to it and the joker stands prolly 4 feet tall. I've always been a fan of long earred bucks as far as what i want on my farm to breed. Just a personal thing that I have acquired over the years, no reason but i think it makes their heads look better. 

I also like that he is wrinkled up with lots of skin and that old south african neck that he has. Old genetics at play there. 

On the side view, I'd love him to be a little longer...to be as thick as he is from end to end it makes him look short, which he isnt, but still length on the side view would be great. He is level topped and strong behind his shoulder with a little drop near his rump...Id like that to be straighter but a hair trim will help.

Really admire how deep he is, especially in the front end and shoulder and the depth of heart girth..going to throw some does with depth as well. He certainly has the muscle.

I like his hip but I want it longer. When I look on the side profile id love to see more bone and muscle from the point of the hip where it joins the loin...lets add more length back to the tail head. He will have a deeper and wider leg/hip/rear end if we were to do that...so he is good there but could be improved.

Overall, length of body is the real factor. He suits the farm well because he fills a need..a wide stout made tall framed buck that will throw a ton of muscle on kids. 
As far as length goes, we have does that are tremendously long so I think as a working buck and not as much a show buck...he will suit us just fine.

thanks for looking and letting me show off my new boy! He will get a hair cut soon when we move him to our barn.


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## ksalvagno

He sure is a good looking solid male!


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## Crossroads Boers

Congrats on the new buck! Love his head and ears.  I'll look forward to seeing him clipped!


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## spidy1

Thanks! I only have a few Boers right now but I'm thinking she's my best doe! For not really knowing where she came from, I'm supper excited!!! 

WOW!!! That's a nice buck!!!


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## RaineyDayFarms

Thanks and congrats on the buck. I really like him. 

She isn't the tallest doe. She does look short bodied in these pics. I was surprised when I saw her because she is actually a fairly long doe. I do see what you mean about the hip. Hopefully the right buck can help


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## spidy1

I can't remember if I posted this doe, she's 2 years old, had a very nice doe kid last year, the one thing I don't like about her is her horn base is way to narrow, and she's to dainty? so what do you think of her otherwise?


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## JT3

She's not bad...a little compact. Her hip makes her look that way because its fairly steep and a little short in terms of bone length. Horns are small...so i'm guessing she's fairly small in general compared to other does.

She's got a good topline right behind the shoulders and looks deep though, some volume there for sure.


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## JT3

I'M BACK! it's been a VERY busy year for me goat wise and life wise so..I've had little time to get back onto social forums.

Anyways...feel free to ask anymore questions! Maybe I've ran into a few of you over the past year...if so let me know! I Love feedback as well.


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## ksalvagno

Welcome back!


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## RPC

If I submit some pictures of my 8 jr. Does can you tell me what you think? I am going to raise them and breed them for 4-H kids to sell to local 4-H kids. While I trimmed hooves a few weeks ago I took quick pictures of each one. Still debating on wetter or not to keep the youngest two because they are the poorest quality but they were the first home bred ones from my new herd.


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## Riverside Fainters

Can you tell me what you think about these? The older buck isn't set up right, my sister was having problems with him. The doeling isn't set up at all obviously.

1. 7 months now, but 8-10 weeks in photo









2. Almost 2 yr old myotonic buck, was 1.5 yr in photo









3. Doeling, around 1.5 yr in picture


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## RPC

Here are my does. I just wanted to see what you think about them. Only if you have time.








Cloud 12-28-14








Cindy 1-15-15








Lexus 2-14-15








Mercedes 2-14-15








Shakin 3-6-15








Stirred 3-6-15








Rose 5-9-15








Jigsaw 5-11-15


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## amanda5858

Will you judge my doe's
She was shown in market shows, so she is braced and shaved like a wether.
She was born 3/29/15 and weighs 100lbs.


























Another doe. She was born 2/
14/15 and weighs 78lbs.
Also shaved and shown like a wether








And another. 
Born 3/7/15 and weighs 85lbs 














Last doe.
Born 4/7/14.
Weighs 150lbs 






(ignore the back legs in this photo. She didn't like being on the stand)
The


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