# new possible buckling. need advice.



## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

So... I have really fallen in love with Pholia Farm goats. I love that they are a dairy and as so they really emphasize the utility of Nigis, but also show... so also care about conformation. And I am thinking that maybe, just maybe, I could squeeze a new buckling into my goat budget so that any doe kids I keep this year from my 1 buck could be bred to the new buckling, instead of having to do a driveway with them with somebody else's buck.

Anyway, if you could put a reservation on any of these bucklings, which would you pick, based on the pics of mama (and dad's pedigree)?

http://pholiafarm.com/kiddingschedule.htm

I was specifically looking at bucklings out of Puzzle, Deana, or Angelica. The breeder said that Angelica has a beautiful udder, but her feet aren't great. Sadly their top milking doe Harriet broke her knee and so can't carry the weight of kids anymore... but the buckling they kept out of her is Midas Touch, who's bred to Angelica. Also, the breeder said that Deana is her best doe hands down... but that buckling is a pretty penny! And since I'm really interested in milk production, a smaller doe isn't necessarily the best for that. Thoughts?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Puzzle is over height -- not a doe you want to get a buck out of in my opinion - but the better of the does you liked

Even though she has all those wins I dont really like Deana -- nothing about her udder strikes me - it has hardly any capacity in that picture and her body structure is very chunky - it is long and she does look put together dont get me wrong but I am not wowed by her. If I am going to pay 550.00 for a buck kid it better be wow worthy.

Angelica is nice but again I am not wowed by her udder - for the price its just not what I would expect to see.

Now Riddle -- really like that doe. I would be more interested in a buck kid from her then from any of her other does. Udder sits high and tight, nice capacity, medial is strong and teats dont point to far out with good dilination between them and the udder. Much more worthy of the 500.00 price tag in my opinion.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

oh I also like her doe Edith -- but she isnt showing pricing for bucks so maybe not selling bucks off her? which doesnt make sense because she had a beautiful FF udder - nice and wide attachments, nicely socked up in the escutcheon


oh and I dont go by lines -- I dont care who the great great grandsire or dam was -- I go by the individual goats themselves.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

not sure how far she is from you in WA but this farm has some real nice animals all around cant go wrong and the prices are cheeper. http://www.angelfire.com/super2/poppypatch/index.html


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

deana hands down.. everything about that doe screams awesome. Puzzle is too tall and i don't like angelica at all


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## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

Thanks so much for the advice Stacey. I agree about Edith... I had thought she was really pretty and wasn't sure why no bucks were listed. And I am also really glad to hear you say that about Deana. I thought the same thing actually, but then figured I must just be a dumb newbie  because the breeder thought so highly of her. But she looked kind of stocky to me, and with kind of a so-so udder... not as high as I'd like. 

:shrug: It's so hard to tell from pictures, too. But I will keep looking and def check out Poppy Patch... tho part of the reason Pholia would work is b/c I have an aunt driving down from Oregon for my wedding and it would be on the way :wink: 

Hm, not sure how I left Riddle out of the list... I meant to put her in too! lol


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## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

SDK, so what is it about deana that I am missing? obviously her record is pretty impressive but I dunno, she didn't shout out to me.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

deana IMO is a gorgeous animal, i can't see how poeple don't like her ( please feel free to add stuff)

She's appraised at 90, which is awesome for a nigerian, she's got style, length, body capacity for days!, great feet and legs, topline is great, very level, I'd like it a bit more uphill, but can't be too picky,

Her udder is IMO really nice. She'd got a great foreudder ( look at the extension) its really well attached, the MSL is nice, i'd like to see bigger teats on her, but they dont point east and west, and she milks a pretty good amount for such a small girl.

I would like more depth of body by the front legs, a little more brisket extension, and some more angulation to the legs.. but she is a reallynice animal


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

and don't discredit does that are smaller, she milked a solid 670 as a FF, that's pretty good IMO for a doe that small, and we don't know what her udder looks like milked out either, since most does with"great capacity" generally have big beefy ugly udders when milked out


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Yes SDK I couldnt agree with you more!

Just take a look at her record too- she is A GCH already by her 4th freshening and also
"3x Sr. Grand, 6x BOB, 5x Best Udder Breed, 2x Best Udder in Show, Appraised 91"

Hands down she would be my pick out of the ones listed!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

if her udder was worth all that awards then why do they have an awful picture of it on the web?


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

My favorite of Pholia Farm animals is Harriet but Deana is the next choice. I like Angelica's udder - long, milk-able teats!

One thing that concerns me is the lack of consistency in some of the does there. But I love that they are a dairy and Gianaclis is sooo sweet and helpful. They definitely have some nice animals there. Hope it works out for you to get one!


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Just a quick note that there is a MUCH better photo of Deana on their home page, at Nationals. Not a rear udder photo but a very nice one - she is a pretty gorgeous doe! I'd look at her daughter's (or ask if they are not up yet) udders/how they turned out and allow that to influence decision too. . .


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## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

The other photos of Deana I think are better. With the angle of the main photo to me just looks kind of chunky and stocky... and yeah, 91 is a pretty amazing linear appraisal score.

Capriola, what do you mean by the does aren't very consistent? :chin: that could be worrisome... (Btw Harriet is my fave too, I am so bummed she won't be able to be bred again.)

Any advice on Riddle v. Deana? Not sure if I can afford a Deana buckling ($700, yipes!!). Riddle is the dam of Harriet, btw.


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Wow Stacey- I dont think thats a very nice thing to say- I dont see anything wrong with the UDDER picture itself. Perfect teat placement and udder floor and looks to be well attached. Maybe her side shot is off angled a little bit to make her look slightly short bodied but I wouldnt go as far as to say they are AWFUL pictures.

Anyway-
Between Riddle and Deana?

I like Deana more- take a look at Riddle's LA scores- they have consistently gone DOWN with each freshening in 2005 she got and 85 and by 2007 she was down to 82 with only a + for her mammary. This leads me to believe she is not "holding up" with subsequent freshenings.

You could go with Deana's full sister, Delight? She is bred to Deana's son- for a linebreeding on those lines
I really like her udder floor, teat placement, and plumb teats- she also appraised at 89 which is very good! She's got some credentials behind her too. 
" Delite is our 2nd best milking doe and also a contender in the show ring. 2x 2008 Sr. Grand, BOB, 4x Res. Sr. Grand"

Those bucks are a little less ($550)


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

delight is another nice doe that just can't get recognition in the showring.

I've watched riddle grow from afar, seems to me like every freshening her scores go down, and if you look her rear udder is pretty low, there's kind of a shelf.

i say delight or deana


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Deana looks like she was a bit over conditioned in the picture. With a bit less weight on her she would probably look a lot nicer. I'd like to see a bit longer, more refined and feminine neck. Nice tight elbows. Very level topline with a nice level rump. 

I don't like that rear shot of her udder at all. Makes it look too "long" like it could swing in the breeze, but the side shot makes it look better. I'd like to see more defined lateral attachments and I would like to see it socked up more into her escutcheon. At least it's hard to see if it is with the picture. Her fore udder looks very nice.

I think the Price of the Buck is way too high, IMO.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ProctorHillFarm said:


> Wow Stacey- I dont think thats a very nice thing to say- I dont see anything wrong with the UDDER picture itself. Perfect teat placement and udder floor and looks to be well attached. Maybe her side shot is off angled a little bit to make her look slightly short bodied but I wouldnt go as far as to say they are AWFUL pictures.


I didnt put awful in caps and I stand by what I said -- if you are going to ask for 700.00 for a buck kid you better have a beautiful picture to go with the price tag. The udder picture makes her look terrible. I'm sorry its my opinion and I stand by it.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

just saying if your going to pay 700 for a buck, its best to check it out in person, or GET NEW PICS. I do agree its Stacey's opinion, and even though we disagree, its her opinion.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

very good point sarah -- hopefully the breeder has better pictures to provide that can prove she is worth the 700.00 for a buckling. If not well I would go with a differnet doe for a buck kid -- its to risky to me to pay that much. 

I believe in paying the right price for a goat - proven or not.


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

IMO if your going to spend that much on a buck then find the best of the best. It might even be better to get a buck from somewhere where ND's are really popular, so show wins really count. Like the New England Area. This area is FULL of ND's and so show wins count a little more... sometimes. 

But really, you want to look at pictures, pictures and more pictures. Look at pictures of the dam, and sire, and their parents. Some goats just aren't MCH's because the breeders don't show.


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## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

This is really helpful, thanks so much for all the diff opinions. I am starting to think that maybe since these bucklings aren't cheap, and at the very least there is a pretty wide variety of opinions as to whether they're worth it or not, I should just save up a bit more $$ and have a couple shipped out from the Northeast next year. I had been thinking of doing that for a while but it always seemed so expensive... but it could be worth it if I have 2 shipped, and if I start looking at who I want now for next year, I could get in early on the 2011 reservations... any recs for good lines to bring over from your neck of the woods?  Of course I've drooled over Rosasharn and OMF for months now... but maybe there are some smaller breeders (TGS folks?) who also have really high quality animals and just aren't as high in the google search engine as the bigger guys


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

with shipping you can get a great potential buck for 700.00 or less.

check out the viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11245 its The Goat Spot members favorite ND breeders


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

OMF has some very nice animals, just got some myself from her. She always has lots of pictures and info so you know what you are getting. Very nice person to work with. 

Rosasharn also has some very nice animals, I have not worked with her personally.

PromisedLand (in NC) is nice too, but their prices have really shot up there! Thankfully I got some of their stock before the big price increase this year.


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## ProctorHillFarm (May 15, 2008)

Shipping in really isn't TOO costly- especially if you can manage to get two in a crate. Though thats getting harder and harder to do it seems.

And yes NE is very stiff competition!
There are lots of great breeders in this area 
I am sure you could find something that catches your eye!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I share a OMF doe with Ashley -- she is beautiful (in pictures, havent seen her for myself yet) 

havent heard much bad about OMF


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## Jenna (Jan 7, 2009)

I really like Rosasharn animals - had a super buck from them once.
I do not like Promised Land - the style of their animals lately is very interesting. They look totally like mini alpines or something. No a lot nigerian breed character. though i have never worked with them. just my opinion.  
OMf has some really nice animals too. 
Have you looked at some Tx breeders? would tx be closer to you then NE? Because Twin creeks and Lost Valley have some exceptional animals. I highly recommend Lost valley- awesome breeders to work with and super animals.
Deana looks the nicest but 700 to me is too high. Just my opinion.


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

Anne at Rosasharn is VERY nice to work with! Such a sweet lady! I've emailed back and forth with Cheryle at OMF and she is also very nice. . . couldn't get animals from her but she is a very kind person and seems good to work with. Most goat people are that way though! Thankfully. 



> Capriola, what do you mean by the does aren't very consistent? :chin: that could be worrisome...


Seems like some of the kids from Pholia Farm turn out really nice and some not nice, the consistency is lacking with some of the pairings. You want to purchase from really consistent lines -- not animals that do great one year and flop the next or one kid out of the litter is nice, the others not. Like Harriet is beautiful but her litter-mate sister had an okay udder (well, imo - it needed higher attachment).

You will see some duds though in every herd. . . it's gonna happen no matter how hard we try for the ideal.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

you have to realize too though, that she breeds mainly for production, being a working dairy. I wouldn't bat an eye at paying 700 for a buck out of deana, or another doe of equal caliber, quality over quantity. I like the promiseland style, the length and eye appeal of them is GORGEOUS! Nigerians should look like miniature alpines,


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Well you can't beat the production that promisedland goats will give. Having the top producing doe on milk test is pretty darn good. 

Plus Nigerians are still an evolving breed.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

I like the super alpine looking does, but most still have pygmy qualities about them, chunky heads, lack or angulation, excess fleshing


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

0


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

Another thing that I think is getting left out is the fact that you can't "FEEL" the udder, the texture, the way it is once it's milked out...THIS is where Deana absolutely shines!! She is an older style doe, not the sharp, angular more new-age looking doe (not that I'm knocking that at all!! I like it)...but I have shown with her multiple times and she's always at the top, ..because the judges just rave about her udder texture. I do agree that the picture is definitely not her best, she is really just not a photogenic goatie unfortunately... but I can actually say that about a few of their doe's pics. I have shown a number of their doe's with them, and I know what their udders "really" look like...and it's usually better than the picture shows. You have to understand the family behind the herd....Gianaclis is a WONDERFUL lady who strives very hard to help others, works incredibly hard to keep an entire dairy running...not to mention the Nigerian herd (they had something like 94 kids last year!!)... She is way beyond a busy lady!! And is just a truly caring person when it comes to helping others. Usually at the shows she has taken newcomers or other goat owners with questions under her wing to show them absolutely everything about DHI records, or judging a goat, or feeding or ??? You name it, she knows it through and through! If I ever know 1/16th of what she has learned about goats, I will consider myself brilliant! LOL!
Oh and Bullseye is who Deana was bred to this year...and he is an awesome udder buck... puts very nice capacity udders and wonderful teats on his babies. I should know....my Bullseye kids just hit the ground about a month ago and they are gorgeous blue eyed babies - the doe of which will definitely be showing against her "cousins" this spring and for years to come I'm sure! Aquarius was another buck they had but he did not do well for teats, which is why Bullseye is perfect for their herd...he's helping to pull those teats back in and lengthen them too. Bullseye also scored Excellent 90 or 91 on his LA this year, just as Deana did. I think that is where the pricing comes from...proven sire and dam with TOP linear appr. scores. Although I'm not saying that top animals always throw top babies either. Research every offspring pic you can find on the internet...that's what I do.

I also have a doe with a beautiful first freshening udder out of Promisedland Playboy at Poppy Patch Farm, Washington, who is VERY fertile and bred a bunch of their doe's when he was just a "pup" ... He is now for sale for a *great* price, and I'd snatch him up if I could... my little doe from him is so LONG, absolutely perfect straight legs & tight toes, and looks just like her daddy. My only issue is I wish she had tighter shoulder/withers...but I don't know if this is from her momma or her sire. She has incredible medial and perfect teat placement and they are over an inch long hanging straight down (which is NICE for a first freshening Nigerian Dwarf!!). **OH - she also cleaned house and won Champion Jr. Doe and Reserve Champion Overall at just 8 months old!! So I personally am very impressed with his offspring (atleast my own). I'd like to see more udder capacity...but jeez she's a first freshener raising gorgeous healthy fat triplet girls without any help from us!! I can't ask for more than that now!!  
Ok, sorry to chat your ear off... just throwing out my opinion. Very sorry to have taken up so much space.
You could also look up Camanna 's here in Oregon... she's got some gorgeous doe's starting to kid now, and they do awesome in the show ring!! Just awesome!! In "Oregon Nigerian land", top competition is Pholia Farm and Camanna...wow that's a nail biter class right there! Camanna's goats have lots of flash...don't know how else to describe it. They are just flashy animals.
Gosh I've gotta craving to show....argg....hurry up summer time!!


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## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

thanks so much Bellafire for the long and thoughtful post. decisions decisions, they are so hard! It is really helpful to hear the perspective of someone who has shown against Pholia does, because sometimes pictures don't do a great animal justice.... and until you actually get your hands on an animal, you can't tell about things like texture, rib spacing, etc.

Oy, Playboy sounds like a heck of a buck too. For now, I think I will twiddle my thumbs and keep researching, researching, researching until next year... and keep trying to save up $$, which is always the biggest problem!!


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## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

StaceyRoop said:


> very good point sarah -- hopefully the breeder has better pictures to provide that can prove she is worth the 700.00 for a buckling. If not well I would go with a differnet doe for a buck kid -- its to risky to me to pay that much.
> 
> I believe in paying the right price for a goat - proven or not.


I don't raise dairy goats... but I definitely agree with this comment! I also think when the price tag is that high... you need to see video or in person... pictures make it too easy to hide flaws.

I bought a silky buckling from still pictures. I paid $800 for him PlUS transport.... worst decision I've made. I sold him for $375.... definitely lost money and time.... I could have purchased an AMAZING buck for that price... but I didn't shop around.  :doh: Don't get wowed by bloodlines!!!! You have to look at the animal in question.... every bloodline has its great goats and its "pet" goats.

I won't put in my 2 cents about the does you are looking at..... I don't know dairy goats enough to be an influence.... LOL

Love these posts though... I'm learning a lot by comparing the pictures and then coming back to the forum and comparing all of your reviews.... vs my opinion!


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## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

Jess that is also really good advice. I DO definitely tend to get "wowed" by bloodlines or show records.... when sometimes a really amazing animal just simply hasn't been shown... or those bloodlines end up with a pet-quality animal! 

Also yes... it has been SO helpful reading these reviews and then looking at the website again... gives me a totally new perspective.


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## logansmommy7 (Nov 11, 2009)

I also think when the price tag is that high... you need to see video or in person... pictures make it too easy to hide flaws. 

I am a total newbie but agree with the above (I don't believe it quoted correctly-whoops) but $700 seems steep to me! I just got a new buck for a fraction of that price with awesome bloodlines. You have a right to more pictures/video, info! Good luck and keep us posted of your decision! :clap:


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

those lines are nothing to shoot down.. they're really nice. and shes a really nice doe.. I know i wouldnt sneeze at 700 for one


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Just re deana, she is the doe on the far right in this pic










Nothing wrong with the udder there ...

I really really like that doe. Yes, I think she is overconditioned and thats why she doesnt look so refined.

I like puzzle, pity she went over height, and I like riddle too, but honestly I do think Deana is the best doe on that list.

I'd love to chase up the dark doe on the left, I like her ...

I also really like this doe, listed on their reference does page (FF)










Great website, gosh this buck is pretty


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Oh, also, the Poppy Goats look brilliant too!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Man oh man I want some nigerians!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

General statement to all:

please dont miss quote me -- I didnt say she was an awful doe I said the PICTURE was an awful one of her udder. Please go back and check that before getting ideas that I said something I didnt. Thank you


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

Okay... I am super late responding to this post but I HAVE to mention that the white & spotted doe in the large picture... she is listed on the reference page for Pholia Farms is our "Mirage"... she is a sweet wonderful doe and can be seen on our doe page here: http://bellafirefarm.webs.com/seniordoes.htm
So thank you very much for the compliment... we could not EVER ask for a sweeter, kinder, gentler doe that milks like a dairy cow!! Her 2010 daughter is exceptionally dairy (By Pholia Farms buck Piddlin Acres Hit the Bullseye) & just exquisite!!

And in the picture of all four doe's standing "rear udder"..that is my daughter on the far left holding, I believe, Cherry Tart? ("Tart"- appropriately named I think per her attitude, more dancing/two legged walking that four legged walking! LOL!  ), me in the middle w/blue sweatshirt, holding Edith I believe, & my fault for not setting her up to look her best...we were in a rush & trying to scrunch up. She's a beautiful sweet doe...but Harriet is the sweetest & is the other golden doe pictured, she had recently injured her front leg during her pregnancy & this may have been her last show & she completed her Championship in this class too that day! 
This was truly a beautiful day at the Salem ADGA show 2009...a very memorable day for my daughter and I to be gifted with the chance to help Pholia Farms & learn from them.

**EDIT - just rechecked pic, I was actually holding Delite, another exceptional doe at Pholia Farm... not Edith. Sorry for confusion.


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## poppypatch (May 30, 2009)

If you have a chance come up to the District 7 Nigerian speciality in Chehalis WA on July 3rd. 
The best place to see does in milk in person is at a show. Photos are never true to the real thing. You will get a much better feel for the animals and udders in person. 
There are plenty of beautiful Nigerians in the Northwest. In fact a Nigerian just went Best Doe In Show senior doe in Roseburg OR last weekend against some VERY stiff Northwest standard breed competition. 
At this year's speciality show Camanna's, Algedi Farm as well as several other smaller herds from OR and WA will be showing as well as 11-12 of our senior does. Thinking of bringing at least 5 two-year-old does so if you are there I'd love to put you to work helping me show all the multiple does in the classes we have too many and not enough handlers! There will also be group classes we and probably the others will need extra handlers then as well. Good way to learn how to show in a crash course. We do it to people all the time and they come back with their own does the next time.

Hope to see you there!


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

Just saw this... 
I went straight in & woke up Kailyn to tell her the good news... Yippee! We're excited that we might be able to help out! We'd LOVE to! We *LOVE* to show!! Kailyn of course has more experience than me LOL! But we'll practice with our girls here so we do our best for ya! We'd love for you to see Peggy Sue, we thought we might bring her for Kailyn & Showmanship, but that's a long haul when we're only milking once a day. She's like our faithful puppy dog... we just love her so much.

PS.
Can we bring junior doe's ONLY to the Nigerian Specialty show, or can they come to ANY junior show??? For example, we were going to take them to Salem, but it was mentioned that we could only bring them to the Specialty show.


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## farmergal (Jun 19, 2009)

Are we all invited? I was kind of hoping the invitation included me  I would really love to come up and see all of the Northwest gals! Not sure if I'll be able to get the time off but if I can I would love to meet you and soak up all of the knowledge I could... My first (and only) show was the 4-judge REDGA show in Santa Rosa a few weeks ago. It was a whirlwind and kind of hard to learn and show at the same time. But I did get three 1sts and a bunch of 2nds! I think the competition was a little more relaxed this year because it seemed like no one came down from Washington or Oregon... just Cali goats to compete against. (Castle Rock of course did really well... and the mom of the only new doeling I purchased this year got 2 Chs!)


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## poppypatch (May 30, 2009)

Great! We would be VERY grateful to have more handlers there! Will just be 3 of us and we would like to sign up 5 two-year-old does if not 6 or 7 in that age group.... if we had enough handlers to have that many in the ring at once. Many people who have helped us show in the past have never shown a goat before so it is a great way to jump right in and learn but I know your Kailyn is already a pro. Don't worry about yourself you will do fine.

The speciality is on Saturday and that will be judged by Tom Considine. 
Sure you can bring only Jr does if you want. You can show them in both the speciality show and the regular show and if you want you can stay over and show them in two more rings on Sunday.
We can help you show your Jrs if you have too many since we will probably only bring milkers to this show. 
There will also be a couple group classes in the speciality show for Jr does. Jr Get of Sire which will be 3 Jr. does all sired by one sire. And Jr. Breeder's Trio which is 3 does all bred and owned by the same exhibitor. 

P.S If you are going to come to the Chehalis show we could bring Mr. Hanky Panky over then. Might work out better than this Monday at 5:30 AM at Portland airport. Just let us know before we leave here for Portland at 2 AM on Monday.
It is going to be a big goat swap at Chehalis already bringing 5 others over to swap and picking up 3 others being brought up from OR. So if you want to get him there we will put him in the truck to bring over then.

Thanks so much!!
Shannon


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## poppypatch (May 30, 2009)

You are absolutely invited! We would love to have as many people there as are willing to come. There will be other breeders there besides us who I am sure would love some extra hands as well.

We have attended this show every year they have had it since we moved to WA and it is the most well-organized laid back show we have been to. All past years it has been 3 rings of senior does in one day. This year they added Jrs and bucks and added one more ring and made it two rings over two days. 

The REDGA show sounds wonderful. We have never been to that one but hear a lot about it and the quality of animals who attend. Sadly we miss the Salem show and the Roseburg show every year as well because of other conflicting events the same weekends.

Hope to see you there and everyone else who can make it!

Will go find the web page with the info and pass it on


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## poppypatch (May 30, 2009)

Here is the club web page with the show/entry info

http://SWWDGA.org/


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## Bellafire Farm (Jan 5, 2010)

Should we bring Peggy Sue to complete your Promiseland Playby trio>> LOL!
She might come up for Showmanship anyway


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## capriola-nd (Jul 6, 2008)

I guess this is a little off topic right now and I cannot remember if it was mentioned already but another thing to ask when examining dam's udders is how many hours of milk the doe had when the pic was taken. You assume 12 or so hours but most people let udders fill a lot more than that for photos. Anywho, just a good side point.

That show sounds fun! I'm sure you'll have plenty of handlers for your beautiful goats Shannon!


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