# I need moral support! ...possible rejected kid



## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

SO I have read a bunch of threads on here re. rejected kids, but I thought I better just tell you all my situation, so that you can tell me if I am being crazy, doing OK, or not doing enough!

My doe, Gypsy, had her 3 bucklings 8 days ago. She has not been a doting mom, and I have been paranoid from the start that she wasn't letting them nurse. When they were first born I was able to get them each to nurse after about an hour. Since then, I never see her with her kids. They are all locked in a stall together and there is an area partitioned off (that she can still get to) with the heat lamps, but I never see her laying with them or anything. A day or 2 after they were born I wasn't seeing her let them nurse ever (she would run away when they came near her) so I held her to let them nurse (she freaks out when I do that btw). Then I stayed and watched her and after 10 minutes or so she would "meh" at them and they would come running and nurse for a few seconds, and then she would kick them off again. My experienced goat friend said that they are fine, and as long as I have seen them all latch, I should leave them alone and they will figure it out... So I had been trying to do that. I feel their bellies every day to make sure they don't feel empty. Yesterday I started to worry that the littlest one is being rejected. When I feel all their bellies, Tiny Tims's belly doesn't feel full. Gypsy will butt him away and nip at the backs of his legs when he goes near her. I haven't noticed that behavior with the other 2, just running away. Then yesterday, I saw her nurse the other 2, but Tiny Tim didn't go over to her, so I set him by her to try to get him in on the action, but no luck. That made me worried. So I put her on the milk stand and put Tiny Tim up there and let him nurse. I did it again before bed. I just went out and did it again this morning, and afterward he kept following her around trying to nurse and was sucking on my fingers, so i feel like he must still be hungry. So my question... Should I just keep doing this? I work and have a 9 month old, so I can't do it every 2 hours every day... and also, he seems fine (running around and all that) I just feel so bad when I see her chasing him away 

Sorry about the novel... I tend to ramble :/ Thank you for your support and advice. Who knew this baby goat business would be so stressful!!??


----------



## J.O.Y. Farm (Jan 10, 2012)

You could do it that way, or just start giving him a bottle.. A bottle will probably be easier... Once you get him on a bottle you could try getting him on a lambar to make it easer for you, but, with him being a bit older that may be quite a bit harder at this point..


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Sounds like it might be time to turn Tiny Tim into a bottle baby since she seems to be rejecting him.
All babies will suck on your fingers, hungry or not.;-)
8 days is not too late to introduce bottle but it might take diligence on your part.


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Do you plan to keep them? Putting him on the bottle might make it easier to sell him at Christmas time (although I'd put another kid on the bottle, too and sell as a pair so they have buddies).

I've bottled a rejected kid. She didn't take it easy, but when she learned that she could get a full tummy, she took the bottle fine. Google for tips on making them comfy. The mom stopped shooing the rejected kid away when she stopped trying to nurse. Bottle baby became her mom's favorite kid!

If you would rather not bottle feed - feel the rejected baby's teeth. Use a nail file to smooth any rough or sharp parts and try putting back with mom. Check mom's teats. Any small abrasions? File the teeth.

Does mom have enough milk? If she's struggling to keep up, she'll reject the weakest kid to save the other 2.

Another thing that _might_ work is Mother Up. It's a minty scented spray you put on mom's nose and the kids heads and butts to graft kids onto a mom. She can't tell by scent which kid is the one she doesn't like. But it won't work if the kid has a sharp tooth.


----------



## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

I am hoping to sell them, but I was really hoping to allow them to stay with their dam for at least a couple months :/

I will check his teeth, but she doesn't mind him nursing when she is on the stand, so I don't think it hurts her... 

Thanks for your thoughts everyone.


----------



## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

Also, I didn't mention that they were all disbudded on Wednesday and she hit an artery on Tiny Tim so it bled a lot. He is healing up fine, but could it be that the dried blood has a smell she doesn't like?? Anything I can do about that?


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You need to bottle feed. He will go downhill quickly if you don't do something. You could always offer him for sale as a bottle baby.


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Good luck reading a goat's mind! :wink: It could be the blood smell, or she just doesn't like him, or... If it's the blood smell, changing the smell would help. MotherUp uses peppermint essential oil (and other stuff); I think it's just a really strong scent that blocks a lot of the mom's olfactory senses. 

If there's no particular benefit to you to keeping him on mom, selling him as a bottle baby could be an opportunity that solves your problem. Some people prefer bottle babies because they want to own the kid during the adorable tiny age. But if you want to keep him on mom, you could try googling "grafting baby goat" for ideas.


----------



## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

ksalvagno, why do I need to bottlefeed instead of letting him nurse when mom is on the stand??


----------



## J-TRanch (Jan 31, 2014)

I would start on a bottle... you can do this!


----------



## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

We just got home, and I went down to let Tiny Tim nurse again and he couldn't stand up! I tried to hold him up to the teat, but he wouldn't nurse! Then he started having seizures. We rushed him inside and used an eye dropper to put a mixture of whipping cream and fat free milk into his mouth. He swallowed it as we gave it to him and he drank about 2 oz. He was having a seizure every 5 min. but he stopped when we fed him maybe 15 minutes ago. He was able to move his legs and neck and he is now sleeping. I was going to rush to the store and get the stuff to make a formula recipe I found (whole milk, buttermilk, evaporated milk, and an egg) Help!!!! What do we do? I feel absolutely terrible!


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

What is his temp? He needs to be above 100 before getting anything down him. Poor guy, we're pulling for him.


----------



## Hodgson (Jan 7, 2014)

cbrossard said:


> why do I need to bottlefeed instead of letting him nurse when mom is on the stand??


I had one like that in June, and I just held a friendly doe for him several times a day. At first she resisted, but after a couple weeks she'd just squat and let it happen. Lol
I'd probably just keep letting him nurse on the milk stand. It's natural nutrition, no bottle formula will be as perfect for him. And why bother with getting bottles ready and the cleanup if she's fine with nursing him on the stand?


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Probably too late for this , but have you tried milking momma a little ?
She might be so tight and painful and she won't let them near her ?
Does her udder feel normal to you or hard , have you felt any lumps or anything ? If you simply can't get momma to allow them to nurse , you might want to consider the bottle feeding . Im leaning towards momma being in pain ……Bottle feeding Tiny Tim is necessary if you want him to pull through IMO. Check his temp , make sure its normal . A cold kid will go downhill so fast , its hard to get them back sometimes.
Good luck , i hope her pulls through , we will be praying for him.


----------



## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

I had a buckling born to a doe who was so excited and her hormones were raging that i had to pull the kid in fear should would paw him to death. I had another doe give birth an hour before with two bucklings.
These guys all looked basically alike except for the ears. I slipped the buckling in with her and her two boys and held my breath. She took one look at him and wondered how she missed not giving him a good cleaning and feeding  She accepted him completely  I got so very lucky . I have a wether of similar looks now and she will nuzzle him and treat him as he was hers  I don't have the heart to tell her that he isn't hers , lol….Such a great doe  Oh , BTW , this buckling was pretty much dried off before i gave him to her , and she still accepted him.. Im positive it all falls on the does personality.


----------



## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

I don't have a way of taking his temp. but we have him inside next to the wood stove to keep him nice and toasty. I was able to bottle feed him 4 oz. of the formula mixture from a bottle. His tummy feels full, so I don't want to keep trying to feed him right now (He is a little ND). He has peed and pooed and has been on his feet. Mostly sleeping, but walking around a little.

Mom is letting the other 2 nurse and they seem fine, so I don't think it is an udder issue. I did milk a few squirts out of her, but this is my first time milking (and hers) so I didn't think I would be able to get enough out of her to feed my little guy... especially since the other 2 are also nursing.

I wish I had another doe, that I could trick into taking him! Unfortunately Bad Mama (aka Gypsy) is my only doe... I am so frustrated with her!

How often should I try to feed him and how many ounces per feeding? I don't know how much he weighs, but he is about 8 inches tall (to the withers) and 8 inches from withers to tail if that helps.


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

cbrossard said:


> I don't have a way of taking his temp. ,,,, Unfortunately Bad Mama (aka Gypsy) is my only doe... I am so frustrated with her!...


Every time I have thought a doe was a bad mama, it turned out that I was the bad mama. Somewhere, her needs weren't being met. Maybe you really have a bad mama, it happens with dairy goats, but don't blame the mama until all the evidence is in.

Anyway, your little guy - you'll do better by him if you get a thermometer and a scale. Until then, try this link (for small breeds) for feeding amounts (6-8 oz 7-8 times a day at a week old):
http://goat-link.com/content/view/94/76/

Without a thermometer, my "has to do" method for checking temp is to feel under their armpits and stick a finger in the mouth - does it feel cool? That's a sick goat that needs heat. Feel hot? Think fever. A thermometer is MUCH more reliable. But you do with what you've got. I use a regular human baby rectal thermometer from the drugstore.

For babies' weight, I just get on a bath scale with the kid, then weigh myself alone and do the math.

If his tummy hasn't felt full, then do as many small meals as you can (every 3-4 hours). Don't overfill him. If he stops after a few oz. and feels full, then feed him again in a couple hours.

If he seems to crash, try rubbing karo or molasses on his gums to give him energy to keep going. I like nutradrench in a pinch. You don't want to give him a huge meal, just small meals often. But 4 oz. once isn't going to hold him for long. You need to do frequent meals and work him towards less-frequent, bigger meals. It's okay to bottle him and then put mom back on the stand and have her nurse and then give bottles in between. But you've got to be sure he's eating.

Did you give him a selenium supplement?


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

cbrossard said:


> I don't have a way of taking his temp. but we have him inside next to the wood stove to keep him nice and toasty. I was able to bottle feed him 4 oz. of the formula mixture from a bottle. His tummy feels full, so I don't want to keep trying to feed him right now (He is a little ND). He has peed and pooed and has been on his feet. Mostly sleeping, but walking around a little.
> 
> Mom is letting the other 2 nurse and they seem fine, so I don't think it is an udder issue. I did milk a few squirts out of her, but this is my first time milking (and hers) so I didn't think I would be able to get enough out of her to feed my little guy... especially since the other 2 are also nursing.
> 
> ...


At 8 or 9 days old if I have to bottle....I'd feed 3 times a day. 4 oz is probably good to start with. But you do need to get a weight and the link above is a good one. I agree that it's most likely not an udder issue. Some goats just reject one baby for whatever reason. You call him Tiny Tim....is he much smaller than the other 2? That is a reason for her to reject. Does OFTEN reject babies after disbudding. I hear about it all the time. I know someone that took several babies to be disbudded, carried them all together in one crate. When she got home....she ended up with like 10 bottle babies cause NONE of the mamas would accept them back!

And if you ever find a doe that will actually accept another baby....she is worth her weight in gold. Most won't.


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Many does can't handle nursing 3 kids. Some does don't like how they smell after disbudding and reject them. The little one needed more milk all along. The best thing you can do is pull and bottle feed when this happens. One of my rookie mistakes was a kid slowly starving to death because I didn't realize soon enough. Since then I pull and bottle feed. If you don't have time then sell as a bottle baby.


----------



## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

where are you located? I have more milk than I know what to do with and plenty of time to bottle feed a baby...

I'm in western kentucky...


----------



## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your advice and stories! I can't imagine trying to bottle feed 10 babies!! Yikes!

Tiny Tim weighs 2 lbs 3 oz. and yes, he is considerably smaller than the other 2.

He spent the night inside by the fire, and is doing well this morning. He had 2 oz. when we first brought him in last night and then another 4 oz about an hour after that, and his tummy feels very full after 4 oz. so I don't think I should try to give him more than that at a time.

Critter Carnival, that is so nice of you! Unfortunately I live in Western Washington  

Harleybarley, I think I will try your idea of bottle feeding and also trying to reintroduce him to Mama.

Wish me luck!


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Good luck! 

Wow, that's a tiny kid! Is he much smaller than the others? I have bigger breeds, our kids are usually closer to 10 lbs at birth, and gain about 10 lbs/month. 

If mom fights him on the milkstand, stop. You don't want her to resent him, or to resent the milkstand. But if she's okay with it, you'll be fine. I leave bottle babies with their moms. That's worked out for me (I watch to make sure she doesn't beat them up, but it's never been a problem here).


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Sorry. Duh. You said he's smaller! Was he born a lot smaller than the other 2?


----------



## kc8lsk (Jan 10, 2014)

Me and my children bottle fed 18 kids last year we will be doing more this year but it was only 9 at a time and I have 3 kids.


----------



## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

Pifflle, too far of a drive...but I guess I could blame it on visiting our son who lives in Seattle!! :ROFL:

Good luck with the little guy!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good luck.

For the small one, give a BO-Se shot.


----------



## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

Thanks again, everyone. i appreciate all of your advice! 

harleybarley, yes he was born a lot smaller than the other 2. He was the first born and he was butt first, so it was a good thing he was so small!

CriiterCarnival it sounds like a plan! Haha!

We just got back from church and he had gotten out of his box and was under the tv stand, so we figured that is a good sign that he is regaining his strength. We are planning to put him back with his brothers this afternoon (and continue to bottle feed of course) I am amazed at how quickly he went downhill (ksalvagno, you called it!) but I am also amazed, and so thankful, at how quickly he is recovering!


----------



## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

cbrossard said:


> ...harleybarley, yes he was born a lot smaller than the other 2. He was the first born and he was butt first, so it was a good thing he was so small!...


Poor mama! LOL

I read once about a doe delivering 2 full size kids and a tiny one - and that the tiny one was probably a preemie. Apparently, the doe "ran with" the buck and got rebred and it took!

Glad he's doing better! I second the BoSe shot. I've given BoSe to a weak kid and done the rest of the litter a few days later, and there's a noticeable difference in growth just from a few days' delay.


----------

