# What would you do, neighbor dogs?



## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

I will apologize in advance, this may end up long. Also, I thought there was a "predator" forum but I didn't see it. If I missed it can this be moved?

I live in a completely unrestricted subdivision, outside city limits, in South Texas. Police will not come out for loose dogs... there are no leash laws. All the houses are on 1 acre long tracts so the houses are pretty close on the sides with most of the yard in the back. My yard is fenced with privacy fence down most of both sides. The front and back (and part of the sides) are welded wire with sort of large openings. 

My neighbors have maybe 6 adult dogs and currently a litter of 5 or 6 puppies (and probably more on the way). Some of the dogs can squeeze through the openings in the wire and the ones that can't, dig under or climb over (it's 5').

Last summer they killed all of my chickens. I talked to them and they seemed apologetic and even contained their dogs for about a month. I bought new baby chicks. One day while I was gone and had the chicks in a kennel on my porch they came over, knocked it over and pulled every baby out. I came home to dead chicks everywhere. I hung a bag of dead chicks on their gate with a very mean note threatening the lives of their dogs. Things settled down for a bit. Until a few weeks ago. I started catching them coming into my yard again. Last week they killed one of my ducks. I don't know if they could or would hurt my goats (the biggest dog is medium sized) but it scares me and I have my ducks and chickies too. 

Now, I realize that if their dogs can get in so can wild predators. That's on me, but with all the houses, dogs are the main worry anyway. As a single mom with 4 kids there is no way I can afford to put electric fencing all around my yard to keep their dogs out. I love animals. All animals. I don't hurt or kill anything. However, I am to the point I feel that is my only option. They obviously don't care what these dogs do to MY very loved animals. 

So the what would you do... if this was you, how would you handle this situation?


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## TooManyBoers (Oct 19, 2017)

What sort of goats have you got? I know mine are quite big and have horns, but though they get wary when the cat comes around—he only wants cuddles, but usually gets a butt instead—and they are very skittish when our neighbour's exciteable spaniel comes over to "play", I wouldn't worry about them since I know they can attack back when they need to. I've seen certain girls butting the fence trying to get this poor dog, who seems to think she's one of them.

As for the chickens and ducks, I would personally put a small bit of metal mesh on the bottom/around the edges of their pen? That way grass etc can still grow through and if the dogs/wild animals dig under it there's a metal mesh in the way that they can't get through easily. Otherwise you could try making a wooden shelter for them and banging it into the ground so it's not as easy to lift? Personally I would put a pole in the ground and then screw a hut onto said pole, then lock everything away at night/when not there.

(Or bring the chicks into the house in a plastic box at night?)


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

I only have two goats and they are pretty big...a 75/25 boer/Spanish and a 75/25 nubian/Nigerian both a little over a year old and horned. The animals are safe at night. In fact, the baby chicks only start getting kennel time outside in the daytime at a few weeks old and are in my house the rest of the time. These dogs come over when they know I am gone during the day.


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## TooManyBoers (Oct 19, 2017)

In that case, I wouldn't worry too much about the goats. I would assume the meat cross is quite strong anyway (based on the breed standards at least) so even if the dairy cross isn't quite so big I don't think there'll be a problem. Especially since they're both horned; it only takes one horn through a hand to know how lethal those things can be.

As for the chicks, that's annoying. I think the best thing you can do for them is to put something on the ground that makes it harder for the dogs to reach them. Other than that, I don't think you can really do much without making a fully enclosed run for them.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

I kind of figured the goats might be pretty safe. While I haven't experienced being poked with one, just feeling them let's me know they could do some damage. They are both pretty good sized girls and surprisingly strong...well to me... these are my first experience with goats. I am just so frustrated with their lack of concern for what their animals do, and the constant breeding of more untrained dogs just makes it worse. I may have to stop letting the chickens free range, and build an enclosed run, like you said.


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## TooManyBoers (Oct 19, 2017)

That might be the best idea, and let them be free range when you are around? It's a shame, but better than them dying at least. I do hope your neighbors buck their ideas up though, there's no need to be so irresponsible. It's just sheer laziness if you ask me.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

All dogs are just tame wolves your goats are not safe! Before my county had dog laws I had 13 sheep killed in on night by a 30 pound dog. after that we went to war and in the next 24 months we shot and killed 64 dogs on our farm. If you are not willing to hurt or kill to protect your goats you have two choices. the first is have your hart broken when the dogs kill your goats. or have your hart broken when you sell them. electric fence work the best against all predators wild and domestic.


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## TooManyBoers (Oct 19, 2017)

fivemoremiles said:


> All dogs are just tame wolves your goats are not safe! Before my county had dog laws I had 13 sheep killed in on night by a 30 pound dog. after that we went to war and in the next 24 months we shot and killed 64 dogs on our farm. If you are not willing to hurt or kill to protect your goats you have two choices. the first is have your hart broken when the dogs kill your goats. or have your hart broken when you sell them. electric fence work the best against all predators wild and domestic.


Goats are a lot more Aggressive than sheep. That's my experience at least. I know mine wouldn't hesitate to beat a threat to death if they had to. The only ones I'd worry for would be the kid goats.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Well, as I said in my first post, I AM willing to kill if I have no other choice. I certainly won't be selling my goats. I will wage all out war on these people and their wild pack of dogs before that happens. I am hoping my goats are both bred so there will be babies to worry about. They will be penned in an area for kidding but with those dogs even climbing my fence I don't feel safe. I know electric fence would be a great thing, but since my husband bailed on us, I just don't have that option right now.


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## TooManyBoers (Oct 19, 2017)

New-goat-mom said:


> Well, as I said in my first post, I AM willing to kill if I have no other choice. I certainly won't be selling my goats. I will wage all out war on these people and their wild pack of dogs before that happens. I am hoping my goats are both bred so there will be babies to worry about. They will be penned in an area for kidding but with those dogs even climbing my fence I don't feel safe. I know electric fence would be a great thing, but since my husband bailed on us, I just don't have that option right now.


My advice on that would be to make their kidding pen small. Not so much so that they sit on the kids, but less space makes it easier for the mum to protect the babies. We know a guy who bought one of our girls, had a kid from her then let them in the field at a week old... there was no kid that night, needless to say. Whereas we keep all our girls indoors, and we have-again, touchwood-never lost a kid to predators.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh boy  people and their dang dogs! This is a perfect example of why I don't even bother talking to neighbors about their dogs they just don't come home one day. Nothing ever gets done about it or they flat out deny their little baby would never. Ok rant over. First keep your eye out for hot fence units and supplies on CL or anything like that. There may not be one for 6 months but then you might get lucky. 
When you did talk to your neighbor did you explain to them you have the right to defend your livestock? Another thing you might want to look into before you get in trouble is if there is anything that says no shooting X close to someone house? We have a law that says that so if I were to shoot a dog close to someone's house even though it's on my place who knows which law would be the one used in that situation. Personally I would probably just play stupid but look into it and be ready. 
I think though pretty much your only option is to defend your animals. I can't think of anything else you could do that wouldn't cost a good deal of money. I think so far they have gotten their fun and games with the birds and it won't be long before they do go after the goats. My goats are total dog fighters and I wouldn't trust that they could defend their self against a dog set on harming them.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

TooManyBoers said:


> My advice on that would be to make their kidding pen small. Not so much so that they sit on the kids, but less space makes it easier for the mum to protect the babies. We know a guy who bought one of our girls, had a kid from her then let them in the field at a week old... there was no kid that night, needless to say. Whereas we keep all our girls indoors, and we have-again, touchwood-never lost a kid to predators.


I will definitely do that. The kidding pen will also be right against the back of the house at my sunroom so I will be able to see and hear what's going on. I know I am going to be psycho overprotective once we do get babies!


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Jessica84 said:


> Oh boy  people and their dang dogs! This is a perfect example of why I don't even bother talking to neighbors about their dogs they just don't come home one day. Nothing ever gets done about it or they flat out deny their little baby would never. Ok rant over. First keep your eye out for hot fence units and supplies on CL or anything like that. There may not be one for 6 months but then you might get lucky.
> When you did talk to your neighbor did you explain to them you have the right to defend your livestock? Another thing you might want to look into before you get in trouble is if there is anything that says no shooting X close to someone house? We have a law that says that so if I were to shoot a dog close to someone's house even though it's on my place who knows which law would be the one used in that situation. Personally I would probably just play stupid but look into it and be ready.
> I think though pretty much your only option is to defend your animals. I can't think of anything else you could do that wouldn't cost a good deal of money. I think so far they have gotten their fun and games with the birds and it won't be long before they do go after the goats. My goats are total dog fighters and I wouldn't trust that they could defend their self against a dog set on harming them.


Oh thank you, I hadn't thought about checking Craigslist for the electric fence supplies. That's a great idea. I will also read up on the laws. People shoot here a lot but that doesn't mean it's legal. Of course, it's Texas! Lol The only other option I can think of is catching them in live traps and taking them to the pound.


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

Personally I feel like your gonna keep having problems until the dogs are gone! You are gonna add and keeping adding fences and thinking of new ways to keep them out and they are gonna keep getting in. SSS would be the way I go. It's harsh and definitely do not look forward to the day I'm faced with this situation.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Is there an option to move away? haha sorry, I just feel like neighbor issues never resolve. 

I think catching the dogs and driving them to the pound is the best option. Here, the neighbors would have to pay a fee to re-claim the animal. I sort of hate to suggest this due to the high kill rates as southern shelter facilities. But maybe a northern rescue will pull the puppies for adoption if you can catch them. 

It's not fair to the dogs to kill them because their owners are irresponsible but I do understand your position. Please be sure you are a good kill shot and don't make them suffer.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

See, that's my problem....I am afraid having the dogs permanently gone is the only solution. However, I don't want to have to kill ANYTHING. And I agree, it's so unfair that the animals have to suffer for the stupidity of the owners. I would be far more inclined to catch them and take them to the pound than shoot them. If i actually DID end up feeling the need to kill them i would cry for days. And it's nor fair that they are making me make that type of decision. I agree about neighbor issues but unfortunately I am here to stay. I wish I lived in the middle of nowhere with no neighbors!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Those dang traps are pretty expensive though. You might be able to find a cheap one but for a good sized animal they are pretty spendy. You might be able to ask around and see if you can barrow one or ask the pound if you can use one.......or ask them to come get them. Tell them what is going on. Like saltey said they will probably have to pay a fee to get them back and if your pounds are like the ones out here they are more money hungry and eager to impound a animal then should be allowed. 
Yeah Texas I would imagine would be a bit different then other states on laws involving guns and shooting  
I know shooting a dog is not something that anyone thinks of and gets all happy about but I think your right and the only way to save YOUR animals is for them to go away. Maybe call the pound/ animal control and see if they will help you out but I would also keep the gun ready to go. If it does come down to you having to put the dogs down you have gone way out of your way to save these dang dogs so it's not on you it's on them! I can not stand people who let their dogs run. It's not just the killing of animals, cars run dogs over, wild animals or other dogs kill dogs and there are sick people out there that get kicks abusing animals. I hate those stupid posts on FB that go along the lines of should you chain your child or put it in a kennel? I'm like I sure would pick that over letting my kids run the streets!


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

Do you have the room for a little donkey, mule, alpaca, or llama? Any of those would attack any dog that came into the yard!


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

cbrossard said:


> Do you have the room for a little donkey, mule, alpaca, or llama? Any of those would attack any dog that came into the yard!


A little dog yes but everything above can be harmed by big dogs or big predators and you should never use them as your "defensive line" and depend on them to protect.


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

LibertysBoerGoatRanch said:


> A little dog yes but everything above can be harmed by big dogs or big predators and you should never use them as your "defensive line" and depend on them to protect.


Yes, I thought they were little dogs. Personally my goats defend themselves. I have Nigerian Dwarfs with no horns and even when coyotes have gotten my chickens, they have never bothered the goats. However I know a pack of dogs or coyotes would be a different story, but it sounded like just a couple small dogs picking off chickens and ducks and I am assuming the puppies will go to new homes...


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

I don't know what the predators are like in your area, but if mid sized dogs have no trouble getting to your animals I would fortify the enclosure. I would think killing dogs won't solve the problem as more will come. One thing we do is just lay old logs and such along the bottom of the fence...


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## Damfino (Dec 29, 2013)

Electric fence is great. The most expensive part is the charger. Plug-in chargers are cheaper and more reliable than solar. The wire and insulators are dirt cheap, so if you can find a good charger for a decent price on Craigslist, go for it. You want wire about 6 inches above the ground all the way around the outside of your fence to discourage digging and another wire further up to discourage climbing. You can also put wire on the inside of your fence to keep your animals from climbing on it or teasing the dogs through the fence. You'll probably have to ask your neighbors to lock up their dogs while you wire the outside of your fence, and probably once a week or so after that so you can walk the fence line and make sure it's weed-free, etc. If your neighbors care one bit about their dogs, they'll be accommodating about this because the alternative is for their dogs to get onto your property and not come back. 

Another option you could think about is getting a livestock guardian dog. We actually managed to get an awesome one for free on Craigslist because her owners were downsizing and just wanted her to go to a good working home. She's kept coyotes, stray dogs, and even bears away from our place. Good luck!


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

It looks like I got a bit behind on this thread. I am going to try to cover everything but if I miss something I apologize. I read and greatly appreciate everyone taking the time to reply. I know our pound will loan out the live traps. I had some friends that used one from them. That's a good thing. With only 1 acre I don't really have room for anything large but oh my, my 17 y/o would flip out if I got an alpaca! Lol That's his dream animal! I have considered a LGD. That would be helpful, I think. It's amazing to me how irresponsible people can be. I actually have a large mixed breed dog I rescued off the side of the highway. He's about 100 pounds and HATES all small animals. If I can keep him from harming my other animals, they could theirs. He lives in the house and gets walked on a leash. Theirs are more of a pack than pets. The don't rehome the puppies. They get ran over, just disappear, some grow up and join the pack. Year before last they had a litter that was getting extremely aggressive and i don't know for sure but i think he killed them. As for my yard not being secure enough, I suppose electric fence is all that could work. Mid size or not they are climbing over a 5' fence so clearly not much is going to stop them. I will definitely look on Craigslist for the electric fence charger. I have a shed with electric all the way at my back fence so areas one could be plugged in all around the yard. Again, thank you everyone for the ideas. I really appreciate it!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Every time anything happens, have it documented, dated and call animal control. Get pictures/video's of the dogs in the yard and the damage done. 
By rights, animal control should take off with the dogs who are intruding your yard. Especially if they have killed or injured.

I would get free wood pallets or sheets of wood, if you can and put them in the area of concern they are getting through. 
Digging under the fence is a tough one but watch for any new dig and patch it or put wood pallets along the whole fence line with issues.

Any dogs in larger numbers can indeed injury and take down goats. They are in danger, they already drew blood. The pups mother or, will teach all those puppies to do the same. Winner, winner chicken dinner, they will be back.  
I had that happen with our neighbor. 
They came back daily for a snack of full grown hens. Mama dog would come in our yard, kill a chicken and take it to her puppies for feeding on the other side of the fence. 
We told the neighbor, but he didn't do anything. So we took it in our own hands and had to shoot her. 

You should have the right to shoot the dogs that are attacking your animals within your yard. 
Call the authorities and find out your rights for sure. is the best way.

Not sure if this is the same for your area, but this is in Texas.
*Vernon's Texas Statutes*
https://www.animallaw.info/statute/tx-dog-consolidated-dog-laws#s821_077
*§ 822.012. Certain Dogs and Coyotes Prohibited From Running at Large; Criminal Penalty *

(a) The owner, keeper, or person in control of a dog or coyote that the owner, keeper, or person knows is accustomed to run, worry, or kill livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may not permit the dog or coyote to run at large.

(b) A person who violates this section commits an offense. An offense under this subsection is punishable by a fine of not more than $100.

(c) Each time a dog or coyote runs at large in violation of this section constitutes a separate offense.

CREDIT(S)

Added by Acts 1989, 71st Leg., ch. 678, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1989. Renumbered from V.T.C.A., Health & Safety Code § 822.011 and amended by Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1002, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 2003.

* § 822.013. Dogs or Coyotes That Attack Animals *

(a) A dog or coyote that is attacking, is about to attack, or has recently attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may be killed by:

(1) any person witnessing the attack; or

(2) the attacked animal's owner or a person acting on behalf of the owner if the owner or person has knowledge of the attack.

(b) A person who kills a dog or coyote as provided by this section is not liable for damages to the owner, keeper, or person in control of the dog or coyote.

(c) A person who discovers on the person's property a dog or coyote known or suspected of having killed livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may detain or impound the dog or coyote and return it to its owner or deliver the dog or coyote to the local animal control authority. The owner of the dog or coyote is liable for all costs incurred in the capture and care of the dog or coyote and all damage done by the dog or coyote.

(d) The owner, keeper, or person in control of a dog or coyote that is known to have attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls shall control the dog or coyote in a manner approved by the local animal control authority.

(e) A person is not required to acquire a hunting license under Section 42.002, Parks and Wildlife Code, to kill a dog or coyote under this section.

CREDIT(S)

Added by Acts 1989, 71st Leg., ch. 678, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1989. Renumbered from V.T.C.A., Health & Safety Code § 822.033 and amended by Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1002, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 2003.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Everything has been covered, but I (who hate killing critters and cry if I have to shoot a coyote), would shoot the dogs threatening my animals. It is not the dogs faults, but it also is not the baby peeps fault either and they are the little victims. 

Good luck!


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Thank you for posting that Toth boer goats. I will habe to make sure it's the same here but Texas is known for letting people protect their property so it probably is. However, since i am pretty fast outside city limits animal control won't come out no matter what. They didn't even come when a loose dog attacked my son whole riding his bike and he had to get rabies shots. They said i could catch it and pay for rabies testing. Everyone knew who the dog belonged to but before I could catch it for testing they took it in the woods somewhere and dumped it then bragged to other neighbors about doing it. 

My neighborhood is strange. It has everything from a huge, borderline mansion to mobile homes from the 60's and everyhing in between. We got an amazing deal on our house and I love it so much but some days I remember exacting why.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Goats Rock said:


> Everything has been covered, but I (who hate killing critters and cry if I have to shoot a coyote), would shoot the dogs threatening my animals. It is not the dogs faults, but it also is not the baby peeps fault either and they are the little victims.
> 
> Good luck!


thank you. See, that's me, too. I am a horrible softie! I stop and check roadkill opossum pouches for babies (and have raised the orphans). To me every single life matters but that means protecting my babies. My chickens all have names and ride your shoulders when you are walking around the yard. We love them dearly.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Alpacas are NOT guard animals. A dog could easily take it down. I had guard llamas to protect my alpacas.


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

New-goat-mom said:


> Theirs are more of a pack than pets. The don't rehome the puppies. They get ran over, just disappear, some grow up and join the pack. Year before last they had a litter that was getting extremely aggressive and i don't know for sure but i think he killed them.


That is so horrible!


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## cbrossard (Oct 4, 2014)

ksalvagno said:


> Alpacas are NOT guard animals. A dog could easily take it down. I had guard llamas to protect my alpacas.


Wow that's crazy! Sorry I suggested that. An alpaca owner/breeder at the fair told me they could be used for herd protection. Incorrect info. I guess!


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Eh...I don't have room for an alpaca anyway so it wouldn't happen but they sure are cute. Lol

Yeah, it's heartbreaking. I will never understand people like that.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All sad for sure. 

Wow, it terrible you are not getting any help from animal control.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Yeah. I was always used to having the ability to call animal control if needed. It was a shock to find out I can't do that here.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Awful.  
As I mentioned, get wood pallets or something that you can block the area's, they can get through.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Yes, I will do that. Thank you!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good luck to you, wish I could help more.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Oh, no...I appreciate all the suggestions so much. Everyone here is just terrific!


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

First I would tell the neighbors you will start taking dogs to the pound if they continue to come onto your property and hurt your animals. Then I would start taking dogs to the pound.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Well, since they have already been warned several times and they seem too avoid me like the plague these days, I think it's time to start.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

This particular situation has passed this point, so I'm not speaking to the OP (much as I like her)

To people for whom this situation is developing, Buy a paint gun, Inform what owners you can that you have said gun and will use it only on your property. Use said guns on your property. After a week or so, switch to a regular gun. Inform the owners that you are now using a real gun. (those whose dogs have paint on them should take this seriously) Start using the real gun.

A few hints to those of you who own LGDs. Do NOT have an unfixed dog on your property. I'm amazed at the number of livestock owners who do not fix their dogs. If you have an unfixed male, he will visit other farms and get shot. If you have an unfixed female, you are broadcasting an invite to all the unfixed males for miles. Yes, that include wolves, coyotes, dogs. Don't be shocked that they show up. DUH.

One last tip. Lay fencing down flat on the outside of your fencing. The predator dogs can't dig through it, and can't use it to get into the fenced area.

OP, I'm sorry you are going through this. It is hard to solve at this point.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Mariarose, first, thank you (I like you, too) and I so wish I had THAT advice when this first started! That is just brilliant. I didn't even have goats or know this forum existed when they started terrorizing me, however. 

As for the laying down fencing, this may sound dumb, but do you mean bury it, attach it to the main fence, or...?

Again, thank you!


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## Sparklesms (Sep 6, 2017)

I'm sorry to say, but the dogs who have repeatedly come to your yard and killed animal should absolutely be put down or rehomed to a town home with no small animals. Once their predator instinct to kill gets turned on, it's nearly impossible to break them of it.


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## LibertysBoerGoatRanch (Aug 26, 2016)

Be careful with the paint Gun, it's considered inhuman and unnecessary. If your gonna shot a dog shot to kill not harm.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Would the paint gun actually harm them? I mean, yeah, it's gonna hurt, but my big kids have had shirts vs skins battles at the paint ball range with their friends. 

I agree, sparklesms, these particular dogs will kill every chance they get.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks Liberty. Here in KY, they are not considered inhuman. We use them on humans, that is the purpose. I can not speak to another State.

I'm not offering that as the solution to the OP. Only as an option for others, that have not reached that point. If a dog comes home with paint on it, and the owners have been told, that is considered proof those dogs have been where they were forbidden from going. We have the right to shoot almost anything ON OUR OWN PROPERTY which if you recall is what I said. Only on our own property.

I don't have a good answer to the OP, other than getting good at shooting. A real gun. To kill. I don't say that lightly, really I don't.

@New-goat-mom I'm not talking about burying fence, but laying fencing down on the ground on the outside of the upright fence. Dogs can not dig under that, because they don't have the idea of starting away from the fence they want to dig under. Humans can think that way, but other animal predators can't. They want to dig right at the fence, not 3-4 feet before it.

You can, if it is wise, attach the upright fencing to the laid down fencing. Zip ties, wire ties, are completely adequate for that.

All other barriers can actually end up helping predators, giving them a climbing platform up and into the fenced in area.

I'm so sorry you are having this trouble. This is rough.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Thanks @mariarose. That actually makes a lot of sense. As for shooting... my dad taught me to shoot when I was 5. Lol I grew up in the backwoods of Arkansas, no one even thought it was strange.  Of course, now I live in Texas. I am an avid shooter, I just sure hate to kill anything. Unfortunately, I know you have to sometimes. As for paintball guns, my boys will come home with a few bruises and whelps... laughing and bragging about the shot they got on their friend. I admit I have never been shot with one but it can't be TOO bad.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

New goat mom, I can't make recommendations at this point for you. I don't know your State laws, and I don't know your relations with your neighbors. Just, whatever you choose to do, keeping this on your own property will do much to protect you, and prior warnings to your neighbors about any new tactic you employ, will do much to protect you. I can only say, I'm sorry for you.

Here, Paint ball guns are meant to be used on humans, so they are not considered inhuman. I have ONLY said to use on your own land, and after warning all neighbors it will be used on your own land. So if dogs come home with paint, that means they were on your own land. Not a lot can be said then.

Animals don't have rights here where I live. Owners do, and who those owners are related to determines how many rights those owners have over their animals. And if they can run roughshod over their neighbors' property. My animals have rights because I give them rights, and I'm butch enough to stand up to my neighbors when needed. It can get pretty bad here.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

LibertysBoerGoatRanch said:


> Be careful with the paint Gun, it's considered inhuman and unnecessary. If your gonna shot a dog shot to kill not harm.


Your right we would be hung if we did that here! My own person opinion that I have learned not to broadcast is what would be better some pain once or death? There was recently a question asked by a dog owner on what to do with their own dog that is killing their chickens. 2 suggestions that got bashed so badly was a low powered BB gun and tying the dead chicken to the dog. And this was not a strictly California group it was a agriculture group. A paint ball gun would leave the mark to prove what you have done but then again if there was proof without it pointing to you it might show the dumb owners that their dogs can be harmed away from home! 
I have one neighbor that is the worst neighbor ever when it comes to dogs. The first time their dog was after my horse the only thing I had in my truck was a shot gun. Well I sure wasn't going to race home to get a rifle so I shot it quit the shot gun. I felt terrible about it but I was t going to let my animal die. 2 weeks later it was back and I killed it. So don't think that every dog would get the point across with a BB or paintball gun. Some are that dead set to kill


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

I am seriously shocked that there are people who would find using a paintball gun cruel. I had no idea. It's just insane, @Jessica84, not only that the dog came back after being shot but that being shot wasn't enough too convince the owners they should keep it up. I have never understood people having animals they clearly care nothing about. My animals are a part of my family.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Being shot does not stop predation. It can't, if you think about it New-goat-mom. What happens to a wild predator, like a bobcat, or coyote, if it stops hunting if it gets shot at? I'll tell you. It dies. And it's cubs or pups die. Same with a dog...

Once a pet becomes a hunter, there is not a lot that a neighbor can do, except try to protect her own property.

I tell you honestly, I would shoot my own dog if I knew he had turned killer. Whether my own livestock or my neighbors' livestock, it matters not. Dog predation is a real thing here. I would no sooner allow my dogs to live after attacking my neighbor's property than I would allow another dog to live after attacking my property. I would completely shoot my dog myself. My dog being a livestock killer just can't ever be allowed to happen.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Shooting an animal that can not get away is cruel, even with a paint ball gun. But roaming dogs can and should get away.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I guess remember the three "s's". Sometimes you have to do what is necessary to take care of your own. Whether it be property, critters or whatever. Good luck in keeping your animals safe.


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## Deborah Haney (Jul 11, 2017)

This turns into the rant-iest post I've ever made.

We used to have predation issues with our chickens, fortunately it was mostly raccoons. Given that the predators are under your neighbor's care, I find it hard to believe that there isn't some kind of law against letting an animal wreak havoc on a neighbor's property/livestock/personal possessions. Maybe you can file police reports (assuming your area is covered by a police department... hard to imagine a lawless neighborhood) and maybe push to get their dogs seized by the state. Your neighbors obviously are not caring for them well if they can't be bothered to make sure they stay in the yard. At least that way the animals could be evaluated by a shelter/behaviorist and have a shot at getting adopted out to someone who gives a crap.

I wouldn't be able to kill a dog. Even if I wanted to deter it from entering my property, I'd have to use a BB gun as it's all I have access to. I think I would leave a very clear and diplomatic letter at their door explaining that any dogs on your property, except yours obviously, will be captured and taken to the pound without notice to the owners or neighborhood. Include when this new "policy" will come into effect (a specific date, immediately, last year, etc.) and then follow through. As long as you deliver a living dog safely to the proper authorities, what happens to it is on the owner for not noticing the dog is missing, getting the dog, or preventing the whole situation from escalating.

I also have two cents to add on the "once a dog kills it's an unstoppable killing machine and must be put down" theory that seems to be prevalent. I think "rehomed" is the necessary term. There's no reason a problem dog can't be removed from a pack and placed in a family home with a big, well secured backyard, no chickens or ducks, plenty of toys to occupy their minds (and maybe with a companion with no history of aggression or escaping) and do just fine. Obvioulsy a LGD would have stricter requirements to be allowed to live with chickens unsupervised but surely a LGD that can't be left with chickens can still be used with other livestock (sheep, goats, cattle) as long as it has the protection instincts.

We used to have a dog who, whenever she got into the chicken yard, would kill a hen or two and have a great time terrorizing the rest until we found her. We fortified the dog run, added electric line on top, put bent rebar stakes through the fence into the ground to prevent digging, and everything was fine for years. I'm not saying OP should shell out hundreds of dollars for dogs that aren't even hers but if the dogs were removed, and probably seperated, they could have a shot at a life. 

All my dogs have killed squirrels (and the occasional wild rabbit) and there's nothing wrong with them. I dont let them around my livestock unsupervised, but they're good dogs who like my goats and snuggle with my family. I've worked at a vet clinic, a grooming salon, and a pet store and I'm so tired of of hearing customers and clients tell me that they had to put down their one year old dog because it killed a squirrel and "it tasted blood so it was basically a wolf again" . Not saying anyone here has done that but I hope no one does. End rant.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

@Deborah Haney I am working so this may be rambling and make not much sense but I have a minute so I will try. Lol

I agree with you 100% as far as my own dogs. I mentioned earlier that my large mixed breed dog is not safe with small animals...I foud this out the hard way with a kitten I still feel so much sadness and guilt over and it was about a year and a half ago. But I love him. He was abandoned with his litter mates on the side of the highway and watched them die before I found him, starved and terrified, almost dead, himself. I think there is part of him that thinks he needs to kill to eat because, I am sure he did. I keep my animals safe from him. He is the most amazing dog in the world and my 7 y/o son's fiercest protector. And he belongs to me so I keep him where he can't harm my animals and certainly not my neighbor's animals.

While I don't blame my neighbor's dogs for their actions, I very much blame my neighbors. Their dogs they clearly care so little for will eventually (in one way or another) have to pay for their carless owners inaction. I can't afford to contain a large pack of vicious dogs that belong to someone else. They actually growl at me when they are outside my yard but thankfully act afraid of me when they are in it. The more they get, through careless breeding and even buying new dogs (last Christmas they got a scottie and threw him in with the pack... he's one of the meanest acting yet), the stronger, and more dangerous, the pack mentality is with these animals.

Mine isn't a lawless neighborhood, but it is one where no-one is willing to come out for roaming dogs. People here just handle it themselves. I tried being the best neighbor I could be because even if the dogs were gone I will be living next to the people for a long, long time. However, that is obviously coming back to bite me in the rear.

That was a whole lot of rambling to say, basically, while I don't believe a dog needs put down if it kills once, I do believe the domestic pet aspect can go away. With these dogs that is happening at a rapid rate.


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## Deborah Haney (Jul 11, 2017)

New-goat-mom said:


> @Deborah Haney I am working so this may be rambling and make not much sense but I have a minute so I will try. Lol
> 
> I agree with you 100% as far as my own dogs. I mentioned earlier that my large mixed breed dog is not safe with small animals...I foud this out the hard way with a kitten I still feel so much sadness and guilt over and it was about a year and a half ago. But I love him. He was abandoned with his litter mates on the side of the highway and watched them die before I found him, starved and terrified, almost dead, himself. I think there is part of him that thinks he needs to kill to eat because, I am sure he did. I keep my animals safe from him. He is the most amazing dog in the world and my 7 y/o son's fiercest protector. And he belongs to me so I keep him where he can't harm my animals and certainly not my neighbor's animals.
> 
> ...


I totally get what you're saying and I didn't intend to imply anything negative about you, I just think it's a terribly tragic situation. I wish more people cared for their pets instead of neglecting them and allowing their psychological state to approach that of a feral animal. I hope it gets figured out before you have more little ones. I'm completely unfamiliar with Texas law but maybe your neighbors allowing animals in their charge to kill your animals without reimbursement amounts to stealing and the cops could do something about that? If that were the case, at least you could use any compensation to get a second hand charger and wire for the fence and buy some more chicks. Your neighbors might also realize that ignoring their dogs whereabouts can be more expensive than properly containing them. Good luck.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

I would have shot their dogs.. But I'm not nice..


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Goats Rock said:


> I guess remember the three "s's". Sometimes you have to do what is necessary to take care of your own. Whether it be property, critters or whatever. Good luck in keeping your animals safe.


Those are some good "esses"


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

New Goat Mom, don't try to capture a pack. They could take you down.

If shooting to kill is something you are reluctant to do, then perhaps speak to your vet about something called a tranquilizer dart gun. Don't bounce out and get one though, without talking to someone who knows about them.

I just found this from some years ago in KY. It is pretty entertaining, showing a number of attitudes and levels of education. There are 2 pages, I almost missed the second page. Enjoy.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/lancaster-ky/TKN139VAHHRCGH7AM


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

@mariarose I kinda figure what I will do is start catching them slowly, one dog at a time in a live trap. Take each one to the pound as I catch it. Maybe they will notice the pack thinning out.

@Deborah Haney, I didn't feel like you were implying anything negative.  I actually really liked your post. I was just rambling to show my agreement. Lol


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

bigz48877 said:


> I would have shot their dogs.. But I'm not nice..


Believe me, I am getting beyond even my nice point. I got home one day and they were in my yard. I tried to run over them. Then I was mad about the tire tracks in my yard. Lol My kids decided I had lost my mind!


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

New-goat-mom said:


> Believe me, I am getting beyond even my nice point. I got home one day and they were in my yard. I tried to run over them. Then I was mad about the tire tracks in my yard. Lol My kids decided I had lost my mind!


You live in town so you could get in trouble easily for firing a weapon in your area. I don't have any close neighbors so where I'm at you shoot, shovel and shut up. Lol


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

bigz48877 said:


> You live in town so you could get in trouble easily for firing a weapon in your area. I don't have any close neighbors so where I'm at you shoot, shovel and shut up. Lol


Actually I don't live in town. It's a subdivision off the main highway through town and way outside city limits. I really don't know what the laws are here but I hear shooting all the time in my neighborhood and everyone just ignores it. This is Texas, after all! Lol


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

New-goat-mom said:


> Actually I don't live in town. It's a subdivision off the main highway through town and way outside city limits. I really don't know what the laws are here but I hear shooting all the time in my neighborhood and everyone just ignores it. This is Texas, after all! Lol


How about trap them in a live trap drive out 50 miles and drop the dogs off in a random spot?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I really support the pound idea more, if she has a pound. My county does not have one, and none of the neighboring counties that do have one will let us bring dogs there. One county did for a while, but they were overwhelmed and stopped.

Please support local shelters, you don't want to lose them!


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Well, I plan to drop them at the pound. I figure even if they end up put to sleep it is more humane than everything that could happen to then running loose. I wonder how many puppies they have lost to hawks and such. I hang McD's from the trees and amazingly it really keeps the hawks away. I guess that and the constant supply of tiny pups next door.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

New-goat-mom said:


> Well, I plan to drop them at the pound. I figure even if they end up put to sleep it is more humane than everything that could happen to then running loose. I wonder how many puppies they have lost to hawks and such. I hang McD's from the trees and amazingly it really keeps the hawks away. I guess that and the constant supply of tiny pups next door.


So it's basically like a puppy mill next door to you?


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

mariarose said:


> I really support the pound idea more, if she has a pound. My county does not have one, and none of the neighboring counties that do have one will let us bring dogs there. One county did for a while, but they were overwhelmed and stopped.
> 
> Please support local shelters, you don't want to lose them!


We have a pound, they are just starting to build a new no kill shelter, and a retired military man actually has a really nice no kill shelter he started himself so thankfully that's one resource we do have.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

bigz48877 said:


> So it's basically like a puppy mill next door to you?


Pretty much except they are just random mutts mated with whatever male dog catches then first.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

And puppy mills keep their dogs caged...
I despise puppy mills, so heartbreaking.

As is what you are going through. Be safe.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Thank you mariarose. I will. And I NEVER let my 7 y/o outside without me or one of his big brothers with him. I know these dogs could be dangerous.


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

I have had a similar experience. Only it was my neighbors pigs. All 15 of them. Animal control would do Nothing. The Sheriff who is right next door to the offenders home And across the street from me said, It is a Civil Matter. My only recourse was to take them to court, and sue for damages. It eventually escalated to where the sheriff had step in. We locked the pigs up, and refused to let them out until we were compensated for the feed bill. Even the Sheriff was surprised that Animal Control would not step in. I contacted the property owner and asked her to step in. So, when nothing was getting done, everytime They came back, one would go missing. After 4 went missing, the problem still didnt stop. So I started chasing them back across the street to the Sheriff station. It stopped REAL quick after that.
In my opinion if it acts like a predator, then it matters not if it is a domesticated critter or wild, it is my obligation to protect my animals. We take these critters on, it is our duty to THEM, to protect them. As their Stewards we are solely responsible for their welfare. 
Sheriffs and animal control both said, shoot to kill, dont matter if it takes 5 shots, make sure they are dead. I have no problem with that.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Now that is wild. That's what all of us need, a sheriff station right across the road to deal with the matter. I am still laughing at that image.

It isn't easy to kill a pig. I'm glad you stayed safe.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

Oh my goodness, wifeof1, I can't even imagine being terrorized by someones pigs! That sounds just horrible! I know pigs can do so much damage!


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

mariarose said:


> Now that is wild. That's what all of us need, a sheriff station right across the road to deal with the matter. I am still laughing at that image.
> 
> It isn't easy to kill a pig. I'm glad you stayed safe.


Actually, its quite easy. We did it 4 times this year.(wink)


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

wifeof1 said:


> Actually, its quite easy. We did it 4 times this year.(wink)


Did you do the " shoot, shovel and shut up method"? Wink wink


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## wifeof1 (Mar 18, 2016)

bigz48877 said:


> Did you do the " shoot, shovel and shut up method"? Wink wink


Nope. Shoot, skin, gut, chill, breakdown, freezer method.


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## bigz48877 (Oct 18, 2016)

Heck yeah even better


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

wifeof1 said:


> Nope. Shoot, skin, gut, chill, breakdown, freezer method.


I gotta admit this makes me ALMOST wish theirs was pigs instead of dogs! Lol


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

We have some feral hogs here. Shot one and it took a few tries. When we butchered it, we found one of the bullets flattened on the skull. That's what I meant.

Thanks for the story.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Bacon on the hoof!


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

reading this thread makes me smile. I live in Montana and have domestic dogs, coyotes, wolves, grizzlies and mountain lions to deal with. First I have several Livestock guard dogs. and can I shoot.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I'd do two things here. 
First, I'd call the sheriff and tell them you have an animal hoarder next door. 
Then, I'd call the local newspaper and tell them you have an animal hoarder who's animals are killing your sweet well cared for pets.


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## New-goat-mom (May 21, 2017)

I really, REALLY, love the newspaper idea. That borders on brilliant, actually. I have completely given up hopes of a civil relationship with these people anyway.


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

I do NOT think goats can protect themselves from a dog. I had most of my goats killed by a neighbor dog years ago and all my chickens. It is really a shame that people can't seem to realize that dogs fall into the predator category and all farm livestock is in the prey category. A small golden retriever killed at my home in Colorado and my vet that helped me clean up the horrid mess said he had a neighbor 35 lb. dog kill most of his sheep. The ones not killed were so damaged he had to destroy them. I will shoot any dog that comes on our property and my neighbors know that. If they jump over, dig under our fence they are coming for one purpose only as far as I am concerned and we have found talking to dog owners about this is a waste of time. They do not believe their dog would do harm. Best solution is to just shoot and bury. Good luck - it is really a problem. I think because a few neighbors here think bad of me for saying a dog on our property is a target they keep their dogs home.


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