# Really worried over here..... :(



## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

I recently bought two doelings, and paid a decent amount for them. Both of them are beautiful as far as conformation goes, and come from good milking lines. They turned four weeks old yesterday, and when I let them out to play this morning, I noticed one of their teats looked funny. I have checked their teats before, and never noticed anything out of the ordinary, but they are still so tiny that I guess it was just easy to miss? Is this a split teat like I think it is? :shrug:


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Sorry, her little teats are still so tiny it's hard to make out the pictures....


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would go back to the breeder.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Bummer. Both her and her sister have them. And I bought her mom too, who has been a great milker! I've had them for three weeks, how do I even go about asking for a refund?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Split, or just two whole teats it looks like. Which breed are these?

I thought that was super uncommon in dairy lines? I see it all the time in boers (and hate it) but didn't think it cropped up unless goats had boer in them!

I agree - approach the breeder in a non aggressive way and let her know that it appears that one doeling is not clean 1+1 teated. If you are planning on using her for milking then this could definitely complicate that. See if they offer to replace the doeling... (I know you're attached to her already - but if you are breeding dairy lines it isn't something you want to pass on.)


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## ndwarf (Dec 23, 2013)

Looks like a split teat to me. Sorry:hug:


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh just saw your response!

BOTH of them? And the mom is clean 1+1?

Is the sire part boer?

It really depends on what was discussed during the purchase...

If they are part boer and there is SPACE between the two teats then that is a normal boer teat structure.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

No, they are Purebred Nubian. Mom is clean teated, with nice udder structure and everything.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Here's pictures of them.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you bought them as registered stock, then you need to let the breeder know. May have come from the buck.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> If you bought them as registered stock, then you need to let the breeder know. May have come from the buck.


Yes, I will absolutely be letting her know.... But is this something that I would have noticed at barely one week old when I got them? Did I miss this, or is it impossible to see that early?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Not sure since I have never had one. But it doesn't matter. If it can be seen early, then the breeder should have seen it.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Ok, I'll give her a call. This really stinks, I was hoping I was on my way to raising great goats.... apparently not.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Ok, I talked to her, and she was very concerned and apologetic. I sent her these pictures, and she is going to make it right. I'm not sure if that means I'll be returning the girls, or just getting a refund. I don't really care at this point. She was very willing to work it out, so I'm relieved about that!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Very glad to hear! It'll be good for the breeder to be aware that the split teat genetics may be in the herd. I have read it can be passed down the doe lines, or the buck lines. Hopefully it was the buck in this case so that you can re-breed the dam. I imagine the breeder didn't even know. If I didn't read of instances on here, I wouldn't know to check my little girls for those abnormalities before rehoming them.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Yeah, I felt really bad telling her, because now she has to worry that she sold other doelings with this issue. She is such a nice lady, so I feel bad hoping that it's her buck, but I really want to keep my mama doe!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

SO glad that she was concerned and willing to make it right! The girls are super cute!

In boers we can see double teats etc. at 1 week old but is difficult because the teats are SO tiny. Sometime what looks like a "fishtail" becomes two clean teats with space between, sometimes what looked like a clean single teat actually has a little nub on the side. People who raise dairy goats look at me like I am CRAZY when I ask about teat structure! haha


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

Awww....sorry abt the bad teats on your beautiful doelings. What a bummer. Its great that the breeder is a responsible breeder and want to make it right! Hopefully its from the buck.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

When I was breeding my pygmy/nigerian cross kids, I had a few kids born with an extra teat and it was very visible at birth... I scrutinize EVERY kid born for any sign of teat defects.
It's good that the breeder was apologetic, and I'm sure she likely didn't know they had this defect.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

I keep trying to tell myself that I'm just making it up. I really wanted these girls! I've looked at these pictures 100 times since I posted them JUST to MAKE SURE, and I can't see it being anything but. And when you feel it, it feels even more prominent than it looks...


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

So, a question for all you breeders: When I talked to the breeder yesterday, she told me she was going to make it right, and then later in the convo told me to keep in touch with her about how things go? I know this is an issue that can't be fixed, and I don't want to keep putting time and money into these girls for nothing. Is it wrong if I contact her today and see if she decided what she wants to do? or should I give her a little more time?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I would call her, no it isn't wrong. Kids are a lot of work, and if you aren't going to be able to keep and breed them, she should take them back and give you a refund, IMO. :hug:


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

You might call her and just ask her what she means by "make it right" your version of "make it right" and hers may be two totally different things. She may want to offer you a discount or a future breeding to the same buck or something that you wouldn't be happy about at all. But since she was apologetic and so nice I wouldn't push too much. I would just call her say you are still worried about it and was just wondering what she meant by make it right and what you needed to do next?


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## goatlady1314 (Oct 24, 2013)

I have two goats like that, I milk them without any problems and a dairy that I worked at had a few of those all we did was swiched the milker to the other half of the teat :lol: worked great


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Ok, I just kindly "reminded" her by texting to make sure she got the pictures that I emailed her yesterday. She texted back immediately, and offered either a partial refund, and I just keep them, or a trade. I'm thinking I'll trade. She's supposed to call me when she can today to discuss details.


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## CritterCarnival (Sep 18, 2013)

goatlady1314 said:


> I have two goats like that, I milk them without any problems and a dairy that I worked at had a few of those all we did was swiched the milker to the other half of the teat :lol: worked great


Unfortunately, this is a show disqualification. If you are breeding to raise show goats, it won't matter if they can be milked, they won't be able to show. And if bred, may pass it on to the next generation.


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## goatlady1314 (Oct 24, 2013)

Oh now I understand :'( sorry about that


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

That so stinks after getting attached to the little stinkers, but I am glad she is making it right.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

I had a doe with 3 teats, her brother had 4. Just wondering, when you say split teat, do you mean her teat is split in half or she has 2 separate teats? i am wondering if my kid had a split teat.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

sbaker said:


> Ok, I just kindly "reminded" her by texting to make sure she got the pictures that I emailed her yesterday. She texted back immediately, and offered either a partial refund, and I just keep them, or a trade. I'm thinking I'll trade. She's supposed to call me when she can today to discuss details.


A trade would be good. It is hard to let them go, but if you want good breeding/showing stock, start out with quality. It's too hard/impossible to breed "up" with a bad defect like that.

I just got two wonderful Alpine doe kids from a prominent breeder. Before I took them home, she and her husband checked the ear tattoos and the teats on both doe kids. They were very thorough. She said that they check teats at birth and every couple days. (and they have never had a bad teat - just do it "just in case").

It is good you have a good, quality breeder!


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

I have learned from this too. I will NEVER sell a kid without thoroughly checking first. And, I am attached to them, but not as much as I thought I'd be so I'm glad about that! I think my kids are going to be upset though...  

Margaret, it's one teat, and the top 1/3 of it is split in two pieces.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Do this trade quickly. The longer it goes on, the less likely the breeder will make it right. If you can go today and do the trade, I would.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Yes, I'm wanting to do it quickly. She lives hours away though, so we will have to wait until we can both get out to meet in a central location. I really don't think I have to worry about her, I've been in constant contact with her since I got the goats three weeks ago, and she is very professional. Which makes me feel a LOT better!


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

So, she'll trade, but she doesn't have any babies right now. She will in a few weeks, she has two does left to kid. But, they are bred to the same buck, and I have to keep feeding these until we meet to trade, which could be up to a month! These girls are due for their cocci preventative, and first dose of CDT, and there's no way I'm going to just let them go without it. So I'm shelling out more money, to trade for goats of the same value, that I will have to start at the beginning with anyway! I think I'm just getting the partial refund, and will turn around and sell them for backyard milkers to hopefully make up the difference in what I have already invested in them. And start over. :mecry:


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I think I have to agree with you ... get the partial refund and sell them as backyard milkers. I'm sure they'd be able to find lovely homes that just want some milk for their family.   I'm so sorry, love. :hug:


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## takethelead (Dec 18, 2013)

I have a doe with separate teats. I didn't notice till after I got them home and the breeder will not accept her back. But I already fell in love with her so it's okay. I will not be selling any kids though unless it's as backyard milkers since she's already bred. I understand the disappointment. 

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Goat Forum mobile app


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

I honestly don't think I will have problems selling them. I'll wait till they're about 6 months old probably, so that the defect is clearly noticeable, and potential buyers will get the full rundown. I won't be selling them with registrations, as I don't want this problem to spread in the purebred goat world. A Purebred Nubian is in pretty decent demand over here, though, so I'm praying I'll be able to sell them quickly once I list them. Thanks for all of the encouragement and advice I really appreciate it!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

First , I'm sorry for your situation  
I would tell the breeder you would like to return them now and say you ould be happy with a future breeding with a different doe and buck. Why should you have to settle for a breeding with the same parents that may have this gene ? Just a thought. Also , taking a partial refund and keeping them , then selling them would be better IMO then taking more babies that could possibly have the same issue. But , I agree , she sounds like a "good breeder" if she wants to make it right for you and not her


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

She only has one buck.  I think she has 7-9 does, but that doesn't do me any good, because the defect is from either my doe that I bought, or her only buck!


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

She just told me she would give me a $50 refund each.  She usually sells doelings for $250-300, I paid $200 each because I bought the mama too. That sounds really low to me. I got them at 1 week old, so she didn't hardly put any money into them, and she's still going to be making $150 each. That's expensive for a pretty much worthless goat. IMO. I'm just venting now, mostly mad at myself for not seeing this in the first place. The pictures I have on here are only of one of the kids. She has one regular teat, and one fishtail. The other one has TWO fishtails, and they are worse than this one!!  :hair:


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Oh, and I heard that both parents have to carry this gene.... Is that true?


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## NubianFan (Jun 3, 2013)

sbaker said:


> She just told me she would give me a $50 refund each.  She usually sells doelings for $250-300, I paid $200 each because I bought the mama too. That sounds really low to me. I got them at 1 week old, so she didn't hardly put any money into them, and she's still going to be making $150 each. That's expensive for a pretty much worthless goat. IMO. I'm just venting now, mostly mad at myself for not seeing this in the first place. The pictures I have on here are only of one of the kids. She has one regular teat, and one fishtail. The other one has TWO fishtails, and they are worse than this one!!  :hair:


This is what I was afraid of, her "make it right" and your "make it right", wouldn't be the same thing. I agree that sounds low. Very low. Just because you got a discount in the beginning because you bought the mother too, doesn't change the fact they are deformed. Would she knowingly sell a doeling with a deformation considered a defect for as much as $150? I don't know at this point what to tell you to do. The trade doesn't sound like a good option and neither does this tiny refund. I personally feel like she should take them back and refund your money totally. But it doesn't sound like she will do that.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

I just asked her for a total refund. We'll see. I just explained to her that I would not have paid more than $100 each, if that much, considering the fact that they were bottle babies, if I would have known about this in the beginning. I have fed them for her for three weeks, so even if she gives me my money back, she could still sell them and make a profit for herself. I'm not asking her to do anything that I wouldn't be willing to do myself, were the tables turned.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Ouch , that is low. Sorry this happened to you


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## Rowan (Apr 10, 2014)

I recently came across a fishtail teat for the first time in one of my purebred Nubian doelings. Both the buck and doe have to carry a recessive gene for it to happen. The doe is mature and has never passed down bad teats before, even with a really close line-breeding. Similarly the buck also sired kids with clean teats. I am culling (for meat) the doe kid and her littermate brother. 

I did sell the sire (before this set of kids were born) - but have contacted his new owner to let them know and also to offer a replacement (of the same value) for him should there be any problems. It is a genetic defect and as such it is a breeders responsibility to make amends.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

So, what about breeding my doe in the future? If the buck doesn't have the recessive genes, the babies won't inherit? Would they still be carriers of the gene though?


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Well, she just told me that $150 WAS fair, because people pay that much for an unregistered cross. I don't think they do for a one week old bottle baby, but please, correct me if I'm wrong! However, surprise, surprise, she's going to take them back and refund my money! Thank you, LORD! ray:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

This can also be environmental, from eating a lot of pseudo-estrogen while pregnant. There's a very good chance that your doe will never throw another a bad udder. If she does, take her off of soy based feed.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

But, is it something that will be passed to babies, even if they don't actually have bad udders? I won't even register kids with this issue, or even if its a possibility that they could carry it. I just am curious for future breeding and selling.


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## Emzi00 (May 3, 2013)

sbaker said:


> Well, she just told me that $150 WAS fair, because people pay that much for an unregistered cross. I don't think they do for a one week old bottle baby, but please, correct me if I'm wrong! However, surprise, surprise, she's going to take them back and refund my money! Thank you, LORD! ray:


I'll bet you those unregistered crosses don't have defects like this.  Here, you can get a nice registered kid for that price. I paid that much for my buck, who comes from very nice lines. I see registered kids go for that much all the time.

Anyway, I'm glad that she's willing to give you a full refund and take them back. :hug:


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## Rowan (Apr 10, 2014)

I went back and looked into the pedigree of the doe and buck and the cross over for them was a few generations back. As long as I continue to outcross the doe, then the problem should not come up again. Really I don't mind going over the pedigrees, it's part of having a purebred herd. 

It happens that the only daughter I've retained from the doe here (she likes to have bucks!) has a beautiful udder and she is closely line-bred. Similarly I have 5 other daughters from the buck and they are fine. So, I expect your doe will not have a problem again.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

*Still waiting...*

So, she was supposed to come meet me on a central location this week, she told me she would probably be going there on Monday anyway. She never texted me, and I've texted her a few times with no response. This evening, I find that she WAS in the area today, and she never told me. Now I've got another week of feeding in them, and I'm starting to stress out about cocci preventative and CDT shots. I don't want to spend any more money on this lady's goats, but the longer I have them, the more profit she is going to make on them! Reading all of the info in this thread, what would you do? Tell me honestly, please. I've raised purebred, high quality dogs, and if one of mine ever turned up with a genetic defect, I'd refund their money in a heartbeat. Its part of being a breeder. She's a big advocate for the raw milk movement in our state, so I would think she, of all people, would want to make me happy. :wallbang: I'm really trying to not get aggravated at her, I'd rather not have bad feelings going around, but I'm at a loss of what to do!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

How far is it to her place? I would just drive them over to her house.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

You absolutely right about refunding money when there is a defect in the animal. And I totally agree with you that you shouldn't have to care for the animal this length of time. I would take them back , like Karen suggested and get your money and be done with the whole mess.
I know its more of a expense with gas and all , but just to not let any more time pass on this I would do it ASAP. Your on rocky ground with this person ( IMO ). And im getting the feeling that their minds can change in a blink of an eye. Its such a shame . Your handling it with the utmost grace , you really are . Get in touch with them and find out when they will be home , pack the goats up and head on out . 
You want cash as well. I wouldn't take any chances . JMHO.
If they don't have cash on hand , offer to drive them to the bank to get it. Im sorry this happened to you honey


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Its over a two hour drive, and I'm really hoping NOT to have to make it. I'm on the verge of just saying fine, give me the 50 bucks a peice and I'll start trying to sell them. By the time I drive my huge van 4 -5 hours both ways, pregnant, and with 7 other kids under the age of 8, I just as soon hang to them! More trouble than I will get reimbursed for! Lol!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

sbaker said:


> Its over a two hour drive, and I'm really hoping NOT to have to make it. I'm on the verge of just saying fine, give me the 50 bucks a peice and I'll start trying to sell them. By the time I drive my huge van 4 -5 hours both ways, pregnant, and with 7 other kids under the age of 8, I just as soon hang to them! More trouble than I will get reimbursed for! Lol!


Yeah , I can understand you not wanting to make the trip 
BUT DONT GIVE IN !!! YOU GET THE FULL AMOUNT YOU PAID !!!


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

I know, Laura. I want to fight it out, but I'm really not sure how much I can push it! After all, I don't have any sort of buyers/sellers contract in writing!  And that's my fault.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

sbaker said:


> I know, Laura. I want to fight it out, but I'm really not sure how much I can push it! After all, I don't have any sort of buyers/sellers contract in writing!  And that's my fault.


I hope this all works out for you :hug:
Don't give in , regardless how long it takes. Its just emails or phone calls. I know the stress is definitely not what anyone needs , especially you right now , but its money and it won't take long for her to mail it to you . 
Play your cards right and hopefully like they will see the right side of things and come get those goats and give you your money. You might have to mention there will be a boarding fee attached to them if this isn't handled in a timely fashion. Ask politely if your going to be reimbursed the money it is costing you to feed and care for these goats. You also have concerns about your property and current herd as well. See if that gets the ball rolling any faster. Keep constant pressure of them. Look at all the people you have behind you here , we'll keep you going strong on this.

And look , if you decide to take what is offered by them , then so be it. 
Its your decision and we will all be fine with that too  I just hate to see someone get taken is all. And like you said , this is a breeder who should know better then to treat someone like they are treating you . It hurts them in the long run. Hard lessons learned , but in the end , what goes around comes around . I truly believe that .


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## Suntoo (Nov 14, 2013)

sbaker said:


> Its over a two hour drive, and I'm really hoping NOT to have to make it. I'm on the verge of just saying fine, give me the 50 bucks a peice and I'll start trying to sell them. By the time I drive my huge van 4 -5 hours both ways, pregnant, and with 7 other kids under the age of 8, I just as soon hang to them! More trouble than I will get reimbursed for! Lol!


You're absolutely right!
But I would be sure to tell her that if this is how it's going to be that you have a voice and you'll be sure that everyone off-line and on will know what position she's put you in.
Her "good" name is going to be responsible whether she handles it gracefully or not.

You may pay for it now....but she'll pay more in the long run with her reputation.

People can get away with taking advantage of others.....but we don't have to be quiet about it.


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Well, she just texted me out of the blue and said she'd be in the area tomorrow! So I'll be meeting her sometime in the afternoon, probably. I am so glad.  I'll be even happier when they are really gone and I have my money back in my hands!


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## COgoatLover25 (Dec 23, 2013)

sbaker said:


> Well, she just texted me out of the blue and said she'd be in the area tomorrow! So I'll be meeting her sometime in the afternoon, probably. I am so glad.  I'll be even happier when they are really gone and I have my money back in my hands!


I'll be praying everything goes well for you! So sorry you had to go through all this stress. :hug:


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Thank you!!


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

how did it go? did the breeder come for the girls?


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

YAY ! I guess she seen the light and the error of her ways 
That's great ! Im so happy for you , keep us posted on what happens !


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Plans are to meet at 3:00. I'm kind of dreading it, to be honest! Lol! I guess because I know she really doesn't want to do this!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is part of doing business. If she doesn't want bad publicity, then she should cheerfully make it right.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Be yourself , be pleasant and get it done 
And remember , you have a army behind you


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Whoo-hoo! Two goats poorer and $400 richer! Hallelujah! No problem with the lady. She was as pleasant to me as she was when I bought the goats from her. Thank y'all so so much for all of your support!!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad it worked out.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Woo hoo!!


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

*Yay !!!!* :leap::leap::leap:


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Good for you ! :hug: Your persistence and patience paid off for you !


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

I know, I'm so glad. Kinda bummed at the same time though, because I now only have two does instead of four, but, oh well! I'll hopefully be able to add some really nice girls over the next year or so.


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## rgbdab (Nov 26, 2007)

I am so sorry this happened to you - it does appear to be a "fish teat" which I do see from time to time raising boers (still isn't normal for them either) but in dairy goats the teat structure is very important and it will NOT be easy to milk a goat with this kind of teat. I would talk to them and see what they say about it. If they are reputable, they should offer you an alternative or refund neither of which is going to mend your heart. Best of luck


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Glad it all worked out.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

wow..just read this..glad it worked out...sadly some breeders snip those extra teats at birth and buyers never know..then they grow up and throw babies with split teats extra teats ex...its shady...It does sound like the buck was the problem....I look my babies over and disclose ( and price accordingly) any defects..., I also would never sell one registered with a defect..But maybe she just didn't look close..Glad she made good on this..
Thankfully I have never had to deal with teat issues...in the dairy world..thats a killer defect for show and sells...but they can make nice family milkers..


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

If there were more breeders around like her, there wouldn't be so many defects and problems to begin with.

I'm glad it worked out for you!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

There is a lady down my way that has beautiful reg. Nubians!! Biggest girls Ive seen in along time..she is super nice and easy to work with...if you dont mind a drive lol, sometimes its worth it for good stock..her web sight is asbyfarms.com...
when we raised Nubians I had to drive 4+ hours to find any...and here she was only 30 minutes away the whole time!!!..


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Oh and of course breeders like you guys on TGS, you know what you're doing


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

Cathy, we really don't mind a drive, so long as we're getting our money's worth! I'll look up her site. Thanks!
And, I showed her the teats, and she was amazed that I had even noticed. Said she probably would have never noticed. Any girls that I ever sell will be getting scrutinized, that's for sure!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

If you like big goats...Ms Ashby has them..If I was in the market for Nubian..I would buy from her..I saw a little buck running down the hill like he owned the whole place..so proud ..lots of spots and splashes there too..all seem very healthy..glossy shiny and fat!! lol..she is also tested CAE negative..so a plus there..they run on a ton of land and have access to brush trees and grasses..

best wishes

HERE is the actual web..sorry I forgot the 'goats" lol

http://www.ashbyfarmsgoats.com/


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

I found it earlier! My one year old spilled coffee on my laptop though, and looking at goats on my tiny phone screen is not that easy! Lol! I'm going to be sure and remember her, so I can get a better look once I get my computer replaced!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> My one year old spilled coffee on my laptop though,


YIKES!.I just had that happen but it was my 16 year old spilled my hot tea on my Mac book pro!! it was less than a year old!! I almost cried!...cost $800 to repair...basically replace everything but the shell...

Ms Ashby has 90+ nubian does and a dozen bucks!! She loves her goats...lol..


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Wow ! That's a lot of goats ! I hope you decide to get your next goats there sbaker


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## sbaker (Nov 11, 2012)

just looked her up on my GPS, its a 9 1/2 hour drive, one way. :/ I'm not sure if that would be worth it for me or not. I've seen some other really nice does in other states not quite so far, so I'll have to see what happens! I probably won't be shopping for any before fall anyway.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

SOunds like you have plenty of time to shop around : )


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