# Bad tasting milk



## healthyishappy

Hi all,
My doe I've been milking doesn't seem to have a bad taste when I spray it directly into my mouth but after its strained. I was wondering though im such a cheapy that I have been straining through paper towels. I was just wondering do you think because paper towels have bleach it could be producing off milk taste. She doesn't have access to weeds and she gets sweet feed alfalfa pellets and grass/alfalfa hay.
Thoughts?


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## healthyishappy

I did order some real milk filters online though they should be here soon.


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## Trollmor

Sounds logical. Keep us updated!


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## healthyishappy

I will. My hypothesis is that it is the bleach because I strained milk with the paper towel and it tasted a little off and then the next day I strained with the paper towel double folded and it tasted way worse.


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## Sfgwife

healthyishappy said:


> I will. My hypothesis is that it is the bleach because I strained milk with the paper towel and it tasted a little off and then the next day I strained with the paper towel double folded and it tasted way worse.


Are you gettin it chilled pretty quick? I have read where some people have an off taste if the milk sits out for a bit before it gets cold. Or do you mean right from the strainer and a taste? But the taste bein off because of the paper towel kinda makes sense.


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## healthyishappy

It has an off taste after I strain it. It only takes me maybe 10 minutes from udder to fridge. My friend has 6 milk goats and it takes him an hour to get them all milked while the milk is sitting out and his milk doesn't taste off.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

All good advice. I would see if it changes after you get a real strainer. Maybe get a mastitis strip test to be safe though. You can always get milk tested, as well.


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## ksalvagno

Never go cheap on milk straining materials.


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## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> Never go cheap on milk straining materials.


Ya I realize that now.


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## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> All good advice. I would see if it changes after you get a real strainer. Maybe get a mastitis strip test to be safe though. You can always get milk tested, as well.


I don't think it's mastitis. she has no discomfort. her udder feels not too hot or cold and no lumps.


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## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> All good advice. I would see if it changes after you get a real strainer. Maybe get a mastitis strip test to be safe though. You can always get milk tested, as well.


I actually got them yesterday but haven't had time to try them because the kids are finally using the side that would get too full. But I am going to start separating them at night to milk in morning. That starts this Thursday which is a week from their birth.


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## ksalvagno

The milk can taste bad for a couple weeks right after birth. Also low on copper and selenium will give bad tasting milk.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

ksalvagno said:


> The milk can taste bad for a couple weeks right after birth. Also low on copper and selenium will give bad tasting milk.


Ah yes I forgot to mention that! To the OP: do you suspect any mineral deficiencies?


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## ksalvagno

I would start with straining the milk with proper equipment. Then if it tastes bad, wait till she is a couple weeks fresh and milk/ properly strain again. If the milk still tastes bad, then I would start looking at mineral deficiency.


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## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Ah yes I forgot to mention that! To the OP: do you suspect any mineral deficiencies?


Somewhat yes because 6 weeks ago she just started getting good loose minerals, replamin, copper boluse. before that nothing but she is looking better.


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## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> I would start with straining the milk with proper equipment. Then if it tastes bad, wait till she is a couple weeks fresh and milk/ properly strain again. If the milk still tastes bad, then I would start looking at mineral deficiency.


I'm pretty sure it's the bleach because milking into my mouth tastes good.


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## Trollmor

May I contribute with my method: A minor wad of pure cotton in a funnel, press very light, and let the udder temperatured milk seep through it by its own weight. (If the milk is already cold, it will take *ages*!!) I am talking about such cotton you use for washing wounds, I hope you can buy that in your shops. Not woven, just loose cotton fibres, pressed into a plastic bag is what we have here.

And congratulations to a goat so friendly to humans, that she allows you to milk into your mouth!


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## Island Milker

so all i strain with is a stainless steel strainer. it gets big items like hair and whatnot. I would say its the bleach...


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## Trollmor

In older times, here, people said the filter should be made from cotton.


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## Goats Rock

A refrigerator takes too long to chill milk. You could try an ice bath. Put the milk in a sterilized container (glass mason jar) then immerse in ice water. The milk should chill quickly, then refrigerate. See if that helps the taste. 

Regular dish soap does not remove the milk deposits (milk stone) on milk buckets and containers and bleach (household) is not strong enough to kill milk bacteria. All will cause off tasting milk and can make a person ill. 

Some Tractor Supply stores sell the detergents, but Caprine Supply is a good source.


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## Sfgwife

healthyishappy said:


> I actually got them yesterday but haven't had time to try them because the kids are finally using the side that would get too full. But I am going to start separating them at night to milk in morning. That starts this Thursday which is a week from their birth.


Hmmmmm. I have always read and been told to not separate until two weeks old for mornin milkin.


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## ksalvagno

You really do want the kids to have all the milk they want for at least a couple weeks.


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## healthyishappy

Oh, in that case I won't milk till next week


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## Sfgwife

healthyishappy said:


> Oh, in that case I won't milk till next week


Sorry i burst you happy lil bubble. . I know the feelin of i lotsa get milks in the mornin. Lol.


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## singinggoatgirl

Wait, are you saying you are straining through bleach soaked paper towels??? Ew. The average paper towel does not have bleach added, but does have adhesives to hold the paper together, which could get into your milk.


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## Island Milker

so what i do after i have filtered mine thru a stainless steel strainer. I rinse the milk bucket and every other object that has touched milk. I do not do this fanatically, just to get the majority of the milk residual out of the containers. I wash them later on with warm/hot water/unscented soap and air dry them. 
I've recently started cooling my milk by putting it in cold water until it reaches 80* as the buttermilk culture i add to it doesn't seem to like being in milk which is higher than 80*. The flavour is off and the milk doesn't quite thicken.

this is what works for me.


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## mariarose

singinggoatgirl said:


> The average paper towel does not have bleach added,


I'm curious, where do you buy unbleached paper products? Because if it is white, then it is bleached...


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## singinggoatgirl

@mariarose isn't that bleach rinsed out thoroughly afterward? I tasted paper and paper towels as a kid and it didn't bite my tongue like bleach, and didn't taste anything like bleach smells... There shouldn't be bleach left in paper from what I understand.


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## Trollmor

A strainer might of course be difficult to wash enough. Try to boil it, before you give up!

And if you can milk in the morning or not without "stealing" from the kids, depends mainly on how much milk the doe produces.


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## mariarose

singinggoatgirl said:


> @mariarose isn't that bleach rinsed out thoroughly afterward? I tasted paper and paper towels as a kid and it didn't bite my tongue like bleach, and didn't taste anything like bleach smells... There shouldn't be bleach left in paper from what I understand.


Oh, I understand now. They are bleached, but the chlorine and other bleaching chemicals are no longer there (to a great extent). Just a language misunderstanding, because I thought you were saying they were never bleached at all.

My bad. Sorry.


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## singinggoatgirl

No worries!


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## ScottE

We've been using the gold mesh reusable coffee filters with no complaints.


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## DragonValley

When I've strained stuff through paper towels I taste - paper towels! When I make tea using the tea bags they come in I taste the tea bag, so I rip them open and brew my tea then strain with a fine mesh metal strainer. Same with bleached (aka white) coffee filters so I buy unbleached - the brown ones.

For my goat milk, I'm a new milker and so is my goat. Finally got a clean catch this morning, my fine metal strainer got most of the stuff out but there were still a couple floaties. Going to see if I can get either the gold coffee filter as suggested by ScottE or else some UNBLEACHED cotton muslin. With the muslin I'll cut and hem so I've got basically a cloth napkin for each day of the week to strain my milk. Right now I"m milking into a seamless stainless steel bowl but I'm planning to invest in a nice stainless steal seamless bucket with a lid. 

A "get it cold quick" trick I read recently and am doing is to put some ice cubes into a small jar and put the jar into your milk bucket. Your milk gets to chilling as you milk then. Now I just need to rig up a hobble so I can get a decent quantity!


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## Trollmor

Coffe filters should do the job?

And welcome, DragonValley! Good advice you gave!


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## TexasGoatMan

Ha ha ha, I love all these ideas ! If it works for you then great. Here is what I have been doing for years. Get a plastic coffee filter with the fine mash screen (not a paper filter) and pour the milk through it. Some coffee makers come with this plastic filter with the fine mash screen. It will filter out any thing you get in the milk. Then place the milk in the refrigerator. I never have off tasting milk with this method and it is fast and cheap. You can buy a plastic filter with the fine screen material in it at Walmart for a couple of dollars. It will last a long time. If you are straining the milk into a small mouth glass jar then get a canning funnel for small mouth jars. It will hold the filter and let the milk fall into the small mouth jar. There ! that's my two cents worth on that subject. Oh yeah, you can wash this filter and use it over and over.


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## mariarose

Here's one like we are talking about. Be sure you get one with mesh on the bottom, not a solid bottom.


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## ScottE

Another tip I don't know if it was mentioned already. My wife puts a couple of ice packs into the bucket as she's milking to get it chilled as fast as possible, it's one more thing to clean but it does make a difference in taste, the fast you can get it cool the better.


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## TexasGoatMan

I will say that I really don't agree with the cooling it asap will improve the taste of the milk. I milk one goat at a time by hand and it may take me 15 minutes to complete the milking process. I just mix the milk from the does into a gallon container as I milk one doe and then another. Most times I only milk 2 or 3 does. Then I will strain the milk and place it into the refrigerator. We have good tasting milk with no Goatee taste. Milk is hot as the goat's body when milked and will start cooling naturally once outside the animal but never never have I ever been worried about cooling the milk ASAP to the point that I would take ice packs or ice chest with ice and bury the milk jug in the ice in a rush to keep it tasting good. Good tasting milk is good tasting milk period, and will be good 15 minutes later, it is still good tasting milk even when warm. But yes I do believe that you need to place your milk in the refrigerator in a timely manor. But if you are afraid that your milk will have an off taste unless you get it cooled down in the next 2 minutes after you complete the milking process then you probably just have a goat with off tasting milk and the solution is get a goat with good tasting milk. Cows don't all have good tasting milk and neither do goats. I know some of you want agree with this post and I understand that and that is perfectly fine. Different opinions and the right to express them is your right and part of what makes America great. :cowboy:


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## ksalvagno

I never quickly cool down milk either. Milked a couple goats then took it in, strained it and put it in the refrigerator. Would last 2 weeks.


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## Trollmor

ScottE said:


> Another tip I don't know if it was mentioned already. My wife puts a couple of ice packs into the bucket as she's milking to get it chilled as fast as possible, it's one more thing to clean but it does make a difference in taste, the fast you can get it cool the better.


In my experience, always filter the milk before cooling it. I had my filter - or what to call it - in the milking room, pouring the milk through, and when it landed, it either got a cool reception, or a dab ot fermented milk with live lactobacilla.

If you cool it before filtering, the fat will stop the milk from going through the filter.

After filtering, old experience says "Cool asap". In older times, farmers had a big sink, filled with fresh water, into which the milk containers went. You can still see those concrete containers in old barn buildings.


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## healthyishappy

Yes I agree, I don't think you have too cool it right away. I have a friend who milks 6-8 goats at a time and all the while the milk from previously milked out ones just stays in a bucket with no cooling stuff. It takes him about an hour to get them all milked. He has DELICIOUS milk.


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## mariarose

I'm going to put an idea out there. Bad tasting milk, good tasting milk, delicious milk, awful milk, these are extremely subjective and no one can taste for someone else.

Tastes salty is not what I'm talking about. That was a very helpful adjective. I'm not talking about that one.

What I'm wondering if by "bad" a better word might be "different from what I'm used to" rather than objectively bad. 

Many (most?) of us grew up with homogeneous cows milk that is a mixture of the output from hundreds of cows from a lot of different farms. We grew up with a definite idea of what milk is "supposed" to taste like. 

If we had been able to taste the milk from each of those cows separately, we would have notice a big difference from one cow to another, and we would have found that we preferred the milk of some over some others.

Would we have said that those we did not prefer, tasted bad? Maybe we would. But maybe someone else would have said the milk that we prefer, tasted bad to them.

I'm not saying this is the case. Just offering the possibility. We all have taste preferences. We are also creatures of habit.


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## Trollmor

Also the fodder has a great impact on the taste of the milk. But if there is a taste on the filter, you bet it will get into the milk! Milk and eggs are known for easily taking up taste from the "neighbours" in a fridge, or if stored close to a parfumed soap. Those of us who have tried, do not willingly do it again!


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## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Also the fodder has a great impact on the taste of the milk. But if there is a taste on the filter, you bet it will get into the milk! Milk and eggs are known for easily taking up taste from the "neighbours" in a fridge, or if stored close to a parfumed soap. Those of us who have tried, do not willingly do it again!


Good to know!


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## Damfino

Yeah, I've never understood getting milk cold immediately either. It sounds like a lot of work for no particular reason. Good milk is good milk. And Trollmor is right--it shouldn't be strained after cooling. And when I say "good milk" it means sweat, creamy, and with no bitter or "goaty" flavor (or aftertaste). 

Now, I recently had an issue with some milk filters made by Schwartz that I purchased through Caprine Supply. Our milk suddenly had a very chemical-type flavor and I thought "What the heck did that goat get into??" 

But after it continued for more than a couple of days I remembered that I had just opened a new box of milk filters and they did have an odor when I opened the box. But when I got them wet, the smell really came out strong and it was affecting my milk flavor big time. I've been in contact with Schwartz and they're working on it. In the meantime, I'm washing all my milk filters in batches of 15 or so, then boiling them and hanging them up to dry on a small clothesline I string in my kitchen. It looks ridiculous, but at least my milk tastes good again!


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## Trollmor

Hm, is it the latest fashion in America to add perfume to milk filters?  (headsmash):hide:


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## Davon

I think cooling quickly can help the flavor, but I agree that milk doesn't necessarily taste bad if cooled slowly. Another reason I like chilling quickly is that bacteria grows really fast at warm temperatures and really slow at cold temperatures. If you put a quart of milk in the fridge warm it can take 8 hours or so to cool down. On the chance that some bad bacteria got in the milk, (and you will get bacteria in it; goat poop is everywhere  ) that's a long time to grow! If I was pasteurizing my milk, I might be less cautious, but then again some bacteria produces toxins that don't destroy with heat. I believe most state's Grade A requirement is that milk be below 40 degrees within 2 hours after leaving the animal, so the authorities that be obviously feel this is safer as well.


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## healthyishappy

Thank you davon,
Good information!!
I appreciate it!


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## Trollmor

Yes, in older times, the main purpose with a quick cooling was to make the milk last for maybe a week. That is pure economy! I do think professional milk handlers still do the same.


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## healthyishappy

Sorry for not getting back. I figured out that I hadn't milked enough into my mouth for it to taste bad
I milked her and strained it through a milk filter and it doesn't taste worse than when I milk a lot into my mouth. 
My question is: if its not the strainers then what other things could it be?
Is genetic a possibility?
She doesn't have very much cream either about an inch at the top of a two quart Mason jar after four days.
I know she is still somewhat mineral deficient but is getting 10cc replamin weekly and free choice mineral.

All suggestions welcome. I really would hate to cull her as she is SO SWEET.


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## mariarose

Did you ever have her milk tested for subclinical mastitis? I don't remember now if that was done.


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## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Did you ever have her milk tested for subclinical mastitis? I don't remember now if that was done.


Nope, I have no idea what that is!!!


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## mariarose

You might like this page as a start of an explanation
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/fieldservice/Dairy/Mastitis/mastdefn.htm


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## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> You might like this page as a start of an explanation
> http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/fieldservice/Dairy/Mastitis/mastdefn.htm


Ok I'll check it out!!! Where can I get her tested for it?!!


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## healthyishappy

I can see bad milk but she has a great appetite and is not depressed.


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## mariarose

So you can see "bad" milk currently?
What does the milk look like?
I'll reread the thread, so I don't ask anymore redundant questions.


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## healthyishappy

No sorry I can't "see" bad milk (bad grammar) it looks great!!


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## mariarose

If you have a vet (seems to me you don't???) You can take in some milk in a sterile container and ask that it be cultured. The container must be sterile, rinsed with bleach water, and allowed to air dry. No bleach can remain, and no towel can touch it.

You can get a product called the California Mastitis Test. This won't tell you the bacteria that is causing the mastitis, but it will tell you there is something there. Here's a link
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/california-mastitis-test-kit I've got one now and I really like it. Easy to use if you can follow directions (some people find it harder to use than other people)

There is a test called the Dish Soap test. I've never tried it and I don't know if it works, but you can try an internet search for Dish Soap Mastitis Test. I personally suspect it to be an Old Wives' Tale type of thing, but I don't know.

You can skip all that and just try treating it by a mammary treatment like TODAY. You would need 1 syringe of TODAY for each half of the udder, every day for I think it is 3 days in a row. Here is a link for that. https://www.jefferspet.com/products/today-cefa-lak I do not recommend treatment if you don't know it is mastitis, but I also know that people do, and in this case it is pretty harmless to do. This is very localized, it does not leave the udder area until you milk it out at the next milking time, when you insert more medicine. You need to milk out the udder completely (like normal milking) and then insert the medicine. One per teat. Do not try to share one syringe between the 2 teats. One per teat.

Vitamin C is very good for mammary and immune issues. Garlic is good for immune issues.

Good for you on addressing the mineral deficiencies. Keep that up.


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## healthyishappy

Ok I'll get garlic??
So the mastitis test checks for all mastitis?
Is TODAY safe for the kids?


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## Davon

The California Mastitis Test (CMT) is an indirect test of mastitis. It gives you an approximation of the somatic cell count based on how thick it gets when you mix it with their agent and swirl it. If an udder has mastitis in it there will be a lot of white blood cells and other cells in the milk. A high somatic cell count is pretty specific for mastitis, but not other things could raise the somatic cell counts.
A culture test is specific to an infection because it will grow the bacteria. The sensitivity part of the culture is that after the bacteria grows they expose it to different antibiotics and see which kill it. I send my cultures to Langston State University. I will see if I can find what I typed up about that and post it here. The shipping is expensive, but they only charge $5 a sample. If you have a vet do this, it may be more like $100 a sample.


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## mariarose

A VERY simplified explanation... The CMT checks for levels of bacterial activity (infection). The higher the level, the greater the change in the milk once you add the chemicals to it (in the paddle) and the greater the chance that half of the udder has an infection.

The lab test that you would get from the vet, by contrast, shows not only a definite infection, but which bacteria, and what antibiotic it is sensitive to.

A clove of garlic a day would not hurt, imo. If she really does have an infection, then 2 cloves would help, but remember, this will show up as a taste all it's own, and if there is no infection, then no benefit to the higher dose.

Vitamin C. Don't forget the C.

No, TODAY is not great for kids. What you'd have to do is separate kids at night, milk mom, give the medication, and milk mom again before allowing kids on her the next day. Don't insert more medication until you milk again the next night.

The kids' bowels will change, so you'll need to keep them cleaned up (the mom might not) and also you should give them probiotics daily to keep the guts operational through this. I've done this before. It is a good compromise between letting a known infection get worse and protecting the kids.


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## mariarose

@Davon I was typing as you posted. I'm not trying to step on your toes.


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## Davon

If you want to get a culture and sensitivity, (C&S) done to find out what bacteria is causing it, your vet can send it off to a lab for this. This is quite expensive. Langston University will run a sample for $5. Unless you are lucky enough to live by it, you will have to overnight a sample, so the shipping will be expensive, but still cheaper than using another lab. I usually take samples on all my does if I send them a package.


To collect a sample, disinfect the teat and discard several squirts of milk. Then collect the sample in a sterile tube or other container. Freeze the sample immediately and pack with dry ice and/or ice packs to ship. I suggest making a shipping box out of foam board. A simpler option is to wrap the ice and samples with several layers of bubble wrap and place it in a box. Bubble wrap insulates quite well. Overnight it to the address below with payment of $5 per sample. It's good to call before you send it if you have any questions.


LSU Ag Center - Hill Farm Research Station, Mastitis Lab

3380 Hwy 79

Homer, LA 71040


Phone: (318) 927-9654


If you think that address is too long, you should have seen it before I abbreviated it!


The benefit of getting a culture done is that you will know for sure if you have mastitis and what antibiotic will work best. The downside is that it will take almost a week to find out. If your goat or cow is sick, you won't want to wait even a day to start treatment. Hopefully by the time your get the results your animal will be better already. It could be useful if you wanted to make sure you had given the right antibiotic or if the animal was still sick. I would get one if I am unsure if they have mastitis or if they have a recurrent/chronic mastitis. 


Keep in mind that goats may have small clots in their milk that are not from mastitis. However, you should always suspect mastitis if you see clots.


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## Davon

mariarose said:


> @Davon I was typing as you posted. I'm not trying to step on your toes.


No problem! I was actually jumping into your conversation. ;-)


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## Davon

https://arcondavon.wixsite.com/alpinechiller/mastitis-prevention

If you want to read all I know about mastitis it is here!


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## ScottE

mariarose said:


> I'm going to put an idea out there. Bad tasting milk, good tasting milk, delicious milk, awful milk, these are extremely subjective and no one can taste for someone else.
> 
> Tastes salty is not what I'm talking about. That was a very helpful adjective. I'm not talking about that one.
> 
> What I'm wondering if by "bad" a better word might be "different from what I'm used to" rather than objectively bad.
> 
> Many (most?) of us grew up with homogeneous cows milk that is a mixture of the output from hundreds of cows from a lot of different farms. We grew up with a definite idea of what milk is "supposed" to taste like.
> 
> If we had been able to taste the milk from each of those cows separately, we would have notice a big difference from one cow to another, and we would have found that we preferred the milk of some over some others.
> 
> Would we have said that those we did not prefer, tasted bad? Maybe we would. But maybe someone else would have said the milk that we prefer, tasted bad to them.
> 
> I'm not saying this is the case. Just offering the possibility. We all have taste preferences. We are also creatures of habit.


After only a few months of drinking purely goats milk I so agree with this. The first week we transitioned we where wondering if we'd made a mistake, I wasn't sure if the difference in taste would be tolerable on cereal or in my coffee.

A couple of things happened one the milk got better (we started milking too soon and I've learned that first few weeks after kidding the milk is extra goaty) and two our taste buds adapted. My wife now thinks store bought milk tastes "cowy" not bad just different with a cow flavor and other than our fresh milk being a little heavier on the cream I might fail a blind side by side taste test between our milk and store bought.

I will say it's funny I think others farms milk is more goaty than my own... wich means it probably isn't I'm just used to the taste of my goats on what they forage.


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## Davon

ScottE said:


> After only a few months of drinking purely goats milk I so agree with this. The first week we transitioned we where wondering if we'd made a mistake, I wasn't sure if the difference in taste would be tolerable on cereal or in my coffee.
> 
> A couple of things happened one the milk got better (we started milking too soon and I've learned that first few weeks after kidding the milk is extra goaty) and two our taste buds adapted. My wife now thinks store bought milk tastes "cowy" not bad just different with a cow flavor and other than our fresh milk being a little heavier on the cream I might fail a blind side by side taste test between our milk and store bought.
> 
> I will say it's funny I think others farms milk is more goaty than my own... wich means it probably isn't I'm just used to the taste of my goats on what they forage.


I agree. Also, I am a lot more critical of goat's milk than milk I get from the store. It often doesn't taste that great either, but I am not aware of all the steps it went through so I don't think about it I guess!


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## mariarose

@Davon Are you still developing your invention, the Alpine Chiller? This may be the perfect subject for it.


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## Davon

Thanks for asking! I had three prototypes made and am quite happy with how the last two turned out. I am using one now and quite happy with it. I have a funnel that fits over it nicely and I keep it in the freezer. It is hung on the scale next to my milk stand and immediately after I am done milking a got I dump the milk bucket into the funnel. I tried to sell them, and got some interest, (but no sales,) so I am letting it rest for now. It was a lot of fun and hard work figuring out how to make it and I learned a lot. Maybe some day I will get rolling on it again. For now, I have a really nice way to chill my milk fast!


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## mariarose

So does it filter it before chilling it, as suggested earlier in this thread, @Davon?


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## Davon

Yes, the filter sits on top of the bucket. I should do a post on it sometime if people are interested.


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## mariarose

To the OP, @healthyishappy at this point I suspect a few things, or combination of a few things. Mineral deficiencies are definitely still on the table. Subclinical Mastitis is still on the table. Just plain different tasting milk than you are accustomed to is still on the table And individual tastebuds are still on the table. And chilling fast can help with the LAST two. But nothing else will, because if you only want your milk to taste a certain way and your goat won't give you that, then there isn't much we can do.

Do check out the mastitis possibility, and keep on with the minerals issue, because you don't want to sell a goat that is ill, or struggling. And when you decide it isn't that, and you simply can't abide the individual taste, then you will at least know you've given her every health based chance.

Good luck.


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## mariarose

Davon said:


> Yes, the filter sits on top of the bucket. I should do a post on it sometime if people are interested.


I would encourage that posting.


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## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Vitamin C. Don't forget the C.


What kind? Like gummys or powder?


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## mariarose

I can't see that it matters?

Medicinally, Vitamin C is the same. How they'll take it isn't something an outsider could know. Like how to give Garlic... However they'll take it.


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## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> To the OP, @healthyishappy at this point I suspect a few things, or combination of a few things. Mineral deficiencies are definitely still on the table. Subclinical Mastitis is still on the table. Just plain different tasting milk than you are accustomed to is still on the table And individual tastebuds are still on the table. And chilling fast can help with the LAST two. But nothing else will, because if you only want your milk to taste a certain way and your goat won't give you that, then there isn't much we can do.
> 
> Do check out the mastitis possibility, and keep on with the minerals issue, because you don't want to sell a goat that is ill, or struggling. And when you decide it isn't that, and you simply can't abide the individual taste, then you will at least know you've given her every health based chance.
> 
> Good luck.


Ok, I thought usually mastitis comes with symptoms like cold or hot udder, not wanting you too touch her udder, lumps, not eating much. So I'm confused because I would think she would have at least one more symptom than just bad tasting milk.
She had the same tasting milk last year too. Could she have mastitis for over a year even when she was dried up? If you think I should check for mastitis I will send in a sample but the facts to me point too no.
Please give me your opinions.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> I can't see that it matters?


So gummys then because she would probably eat those.
And how much would I give?


----------



## mariarose

The symptoms you could detect like clumpiness, or hot udder, etc.
That would be CLINICAL

Having a high somatic cell count, indicating... SOMETHING'S GOING ON... That would be SUB clinical, On the verge of going full clinical. 

It's the sub part of it.


----------



## healthyishappy

So she could have it for over a year?


----------



## mariarose

The uncertainty of whether or not she's truly sick, is why I suggest the CMT. Last year, she was probably suffering from mineral deficiency. This year, she's suffering from mineral deficiency. 

So, maybe it is just mineral deficiency, OR the deficiency is contributing to illness, OR it's just the way her milk tastes. You just can't know until the possibilities are addressed.


----------



## mariarose

The Picture I posted in post 53 had as a characteristic of subclinical as being long duration... OR long term, or long lasting. So...


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> The uncertainty of whether or not she's truly sick, is why I suggest the CMT. Last year, she was probably suffering from mineral deficiency. This year, she's suffering from mineral deficiency.
> 
> So, maybe it is just mineral deficiency, OR the deficiency is contributing to illness, OR it's just the way her milk tastes. You just can't know until the possibilities are addressed.


Ok so just get CMT and then I can if mastitis is a possibility.
And if it's not that then we'll have to try something else.
Ok I'll get that ordered.


----------



## mariarose

I think that course of action is smart, unless you are able to send a sample in for culturing, like to the lab that Davon mentioned, or to a vet as others are able to do. That one is very specific. The CMT is an indirect indication there's a problem.

The direct-to-treatment is not my favourite path, but it is common.

Any way you choose to move forward now, Please keep addressing your known mineral problems... also the Vitamin C and 1 clove of garlic a day can only help all the problems, and not harm any of them.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> I think that course of action is smart, unless you are able to send a sample in for culturing, like to the lab that Davon mentioned, or to a vet as others are able to do. That one is very specific. The CMT is an indirect indication there's a problem.
> 
> The direct-to-treatment is not my favourite path, but it is common.
> 
> Any way you choose to move forward now, Please keep addressing your known mineral problems... also the Vitamin C and 1 clove of garlic a day can only help all the problems, and not harm any of them.


Ok i'll see if I can send one in. And get some vit c and garlic


----------



## healthyishappy

For garlic can I use capsules instead of cloves?


----------



## mariarose

IMO, the CMT is extremely worthwhile when you are trying to figure out in which direction to go. The kit will last a very long time.

My personal path would be, 
CMT...
When the test shows a problem, then
TODAY...
When TODAY doesn't work, then 
Cultured lab specimen for a detailed solution.

And all along... Minerals, Vitamin C, Garlic Clove, an extremely timely cooling of the milk in question and super clean milk handling. All of which should be a thing at all times anyway.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> For garlic can I use capsules instead of cloves?


No, it is the fresh stuff that works (as always)


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> IMO, the CMT is extremely worthwhile when you are trying to figure out in which direction to go. The kit will last a very long time.
> 
> My personal path would be,
> CMT...
> When the test shows a problem, then
> TODAY...
> When TODAY doesn't work, then
> Cultured lab specimen for a detailed solution.
> 
> And all along... Minerals, Vitamin C, Garlic Clove, an extremely timely cooling of the milk in question and super clean milk handling. All of which should be a thing at all times anyway.


OK!!! Thanks!!


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> No, it is the fresh stuff that works (as always)


OK understand!!!


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> OK!!! Thanks!!


You are welcome


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> You are welcome


TGS is so lucky to have you!!!!!!!


----------



## mariarose

One day, we will be even more lucky to have YOU, @healthyishappy


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> One day, we will be even more lucky to have YOU, @healthyishappy


Well, I hope so. Right now i'm just a begginer.
We learn from ones older than us and are supposed to pass that down to the younger generations.


----------



## Trollmor

healthyishappy said:


> So the mastitis test checks for all mastitis?


The CMT tests for cells. Goat milk contain more cells per litre than cow's, because of the difference in udder size. The CMT does not make a difference between normal cells from the udder tissue and the cells of a mastitis kind.

(Anyone unable to use the CMT will most probably not be able to empty an udder neither.  )


----------



## mariarose

LOL. I'm just saying some people find it more of a challenge than other people do.

Like me and cell phone technology..."Mom, the arrow means you have to swipe, not tap."
"Oh."


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> LOL. I'm just saying some people find it more of a challenge than other people do.
> 
> Like me and cell phone technology..."Mom, the arrow means you have to swipe, not tap."
> "Oh."


Lol!!!!


----------



## Trollmor

Cell phones, are they telephones made from real cells ??? 

Yes, a challenge, to be sure! I only compared 2 kinds of challenges ...


----------



## healthyishappy

So I got the CMT ordered from jeffers on Monday. Its supposed to be here next Friday. I got some garlic and giving one clove a day. I also got vitamin c tablets and giving her one 500mg tablet per day.


----------



## healthyishappy

Quick question:
Her milk goes bad in under a week which from reading on here seems a bit early.
Could mastitis affect the time in which it goes bad?


----------



## ksalvagno

Subclinical can, so yes.


----------



## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> Subclinical can, so yes.


WOW!!!
So a lot of things point to mastitis.
If she doesn't have it i'll be suprised.
I guess I'll just have to see when the kit comes:waiting::waiting::waiting:


----------



## mariarose

Subclinical Mastitis is a major reason for early off taste.


----------



## healthyishappy

Got the kit.
Tested and am not sure it seems to be maybe mastitis.
I'll test again and get a video of what its doing.


----------



## healthyishappy

Here it is: https://vimeo.com/user97801794/review/340570586/fd5e4779ca


----------



## Trollmor

Link does not work for me.


----------



## healthyishappy

Hopefully this will work:




Both this and the other link worked for me.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

That one works. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about it.lol


----------



## mariarose

One of these might help you out
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=California+Mastitis+Test


----------



## healthyishappy

Dwarf Dad said:


> That one works. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about it.lol


LOL!!!!


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> One of these might help you out
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=California+Mastitis+Test


Okay thanks I'll check it out.


----------



## healthyishappy

I would say maybe a small amount of mastitis.
So where can I buy today in smaller amounts and what do I do with the kids when I give her the today?


----------



## Damfino

Watched your video, and yes it looks like she has some small infection going on (slightly worse in the top/right tray). I can usually buy ToDay in individual doses at a feed store. Your vet would also have it on hand. One tube can treat both sides on a goat (1/2 tube in one side and 1/2 in the other). I like to thoroughly disinfect both teats before insertion and disinfect the tube before inserting it into the second teat. 

Empty the udder completely before treatment and then either separate the kids or tape off the teats so they can't drink. The medicated milk won't hurt the kids, but you want the medicine to stay in the udder for a good 8 hours to work. Usually it takes at least three treatments. Do you have another doe that can supply milk for the kids while their mother is in treatment? If not, I've personally never experienced problems with kids drinking the milk after medication, but I'll leave that up to your judgement. 

What is your doe's udder like? Is it pendulous or too large for her frame? Are the kids rough on her when they nurse? Chronic mastitis often has a physical/traumatic cause and treatment may only get you so far. I've had a couple of does with extra-large udders that always had subclinical chronic mastitis because their udders did not have good enough attachments for the sheer volume they were producing. I would treat and it would go away, then a few weeks later it would come back. On the other hand, if it's just that the kids are rough on your doe, you may be able to prevent a recurrence by letting them nurse a couple of times a day under supervision while their mom is on the stand.


----------



## healthyishappy

Damfino said:


> I can usually buy ToDay in individual doses at a feed store. Your vet would also have it on hand. One tube can treat both sides on a goat (1/2 tube in one side and 1/2 in the other).


So should I get three tubes? Or a couple more to be safe?
Do I administer one tube a day?
Or just one after another?


----------



## healthyishappy

Damfino said:


> Empty the udder completely before treatment and then either separate the kids or tape off the teats so they can't drink. The medicated milk won't hurt the kids, but you want the medicine to stay in the udder for a good 8 hours to work. Usually it takes at least three treatments. Do you have another doe that can supply milk for the kids while their mother is in treatment? If not, I've personally never experienced problems with kids drinking the milk after medication, but I'll leave that up to your judgement.


I think I'll jusy separate the kids and maybe bottle feed them whole cows milk from a grocery store. I do not have another doe in milk.


----------



## healthyishappy

Damfino said:


> What is your doe's udder like? Is it pendulous or too large for her frame? Are the kids rough on her when they nurse? Chronic mastitis often has a physical/traumatic cause and treatment may only get you so far. I've had a couple of does with extra-large udders that always had subclinical chronic mastitis because their udders did not have good enough attachments for the sheer volume they were producing. I would treat and it would go away, then a few weeks later it would come back. On the other hand, if it's just that the kids are rough on your doe, you may be able to prevent a recurrence by letting them nurse a couple of times a day under supervision while their mom is on the stand.


I'll get you a pic. From what I've seen she seems to have a good attachment. They are a little bit rough but not mean.
She has never been treated for mastitis before so I guess we'll have to see if she gets it again after this treatment. If she does have chronic mastitis is she no good as a milk goat?


----------



## mariarose

I personally would give a whole tube in each side, because of the uncertainty of getting half the medication and half the carrier oil in each side. I don't ever want to underdose antibiotics.


----------



## Damfino

Yeah, get extra tubes. And like Mariarose pointed out, it can be a good idea to use a full tube in each side. Sometimes I use a half tube and sometimes a whole one. Use your best judgement there. They're usually around $3.50 each. 

Hopefully your kids will take a bottle. Many won't, especially if it contains cows milk. If you get them to take a bottle, start slowly. A sudden change to cow milk can upset their tummies.

It's too early to say whether your doe will continue to have a problem. If her udder looks good then there's no reason to think she can't kick this and lead a long, healthy, mastitis-free life.


----------



## healthyishappy

Damfino said:


> Hopefully your kids will take a bottle. Many won't, especially if it contains cows milk. If you get them to take a bottle, start slowly. A sudden change to cow milk can upset their tummies.


Ok, and they probably won't need too much milk as they eat a LOT of hay and grain.
They are 1 1/2 months old so close to weaning.


----------



## healthyishappy

Damfino said:


> It's too early to say whether your doe will continue to have a problem. If her udder looks good then there's no reason to think she can't kick this and lead a long, healthy, mastitis-free life.


Yes, but if she does not "kick" it then is she not good as a milk goat?
I really like her but if that turns out to be the case then I will have to get another milker. To me I love my goats but they are farm animals and I do whats necessary.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> They are 1 1/2 months old so close to weaning.


Do you normally wean them so young? Mine go for 4 months.


healthyishappy said:


> if she does not "kick" it then is she not good as a milk goat?


I think what she was saying is there is no reason to even consider she won't "kick" it. If she's treated correctly, she'll kick it.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Do you normally wean them so young? Mine go for 4 months.


Yes, I have three goat books and they all recommend at that age.
I think my goat books kinda suck. They never talked about copper or that you might need a certain kind of minerals.
What goat books would you recommend?


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> I think what she was saying is there is no reason to even consider she won't "kick" it. If she's treated correctly, she'll kick it.


Okay, Thank you.
I just have to say i'm so glad for all the educated people on this forum that have helped me with so much.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> What goat books would you recommend?


Well, staying here, obviously!!!! And you might like this person's blog and book
https://thriftyhomesteader.com/category/goats/ and https://thriftyhomesteader.com/buy/

There is a textbook by Pugh that I like very much. When I find it I'll type the name here. Here it is.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9781437723533/sheep-and-goat-medicine

I sold a starter herd of 3 does and a buckling, and all 3 does left kids behind who were fat and healthy 3 month old kids who weren't fully weaned yet. I've managed to graft 3 kids onto my remaining does, and 2 kids who did not graft. Even though they have plenty of food, they are not keeping pace (growthwise) with the 3 who grafted. If you decide to let your kids stay on mom longer, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by how large, sturdy, and full of vigour they turn out to be.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> If you decide to let your kids stay on mom longer, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by how large, sturdy, and full of vigour they turn out to be.


If you recommend I will.
I just learned 2 months.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Well, staying here, obviously!!!! And you might like this person's blog and book
> https://thriftyhomesteader.com/category/goats/ and https://thriftyhomesteader.com/buy/
> 
> There is a textbook by Pugh that I like very much. When I find it I'll type the name here.


:ty::ty::ty:


----------



## mariarose

I would try milking her empty at night, after you separate her kids, and after she is empty, use the tube of Today. In the a.m. milk her out again (discard the milk) and let her kids on her until night, when you should separate them again, and again use the Today.

This way she'll be medicated all night, and the kids will keep her empty all day. The kids will have a belly issue because of the residual medicine and oil, but a dose of Probios every day will take care of that.

This is what I would do if she were mine and I did not want to wean kids yet.

Here's the textbook I mentioned https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9781437723533/sheep-and-goat-medicine


----------



## singinggoatgirl

I’ve done both early weaning (8 weeks) and letting the kid stay on mom for 6 months (I was waiting to see if mom would wean on her own... it didn’t happen). The kid who stayed on mom for 6 months was a Nigerian dwarf who was 3 weeks older than my 2 mini Nubians. At 6 months old, she was almost a 1/3 bigger by weight and 2 inches taller than her bigger breed companions. I had been running tons of fecals on those 2 wondering what was wrong with them, and they were always clean. They caught up eventually, but I was very impressed by the late weaning growth rate. I do not necessarily recommend 6 months for normal weaning, but I definitely like longer than 8weeks where possible. My dwarf bucklings are unfortunately quite... precocious, so they can’t be left with mom longer than 8 weeks, but if I ever retain one, I’ll probably start them on a bottle from day one so they can have milk longer.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> I would try milking her empty at night, after you separate her kids, and after she is empty, use the tube of Today. In the a.m. milk her out again (discard the milk) and let her kids on her until night, when you should separate them again, and again use the Today.
> 
> This way she'll be medicated all night, and the kids will keep her empty all day. The kids will have a belly issue because of the residual medicine and oil, but a dose of Probios every day will take care of that.
> 
> This is what I would do if she were mine and I did not want to wean kids yet.
> 
> Here's the textbook I mentioned https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9781437723533/sheep-and-goat-medicine


Ok, thanks.
I'll pick up some probios.


----------



## mariarose

singinggoatgirl said:


> My dwarf bucklings are unfortunately quite... precocious, so they can't be left with mom longer than 8 weeks,


Dwarf Bucklings... I think they try to mount the mom WHILE suckling...


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> Ok, thanks.
> I'll pick up some probios.


Probios is always at hand, here on my farm.

Now, do not misunderstand me. You can't let the kids back on her UNTIL you empty out the udder in the morning. You do NOT want them to get a belly full of medicated oily milk.

So... Separate kids, milk, medicate, let everyone sleep, milk, allow the kids access to mom.


----------



## Damfino

mariarose said:


> I would try milking her empty at night, after you separate her kids, and after she is empty, use the tube of Today. In the a.m. milk her out again (discard the milk) and let her kids on her until night, when you should separate them again, and again use the Today.
> 
> This way she'll be medicated all night, and the kids will keep her empty all day. The kids will have a belly issue because of the residual medicine and oil, but a dose of Probios every day will take care of that.


^ This is a good way to do it. The kids shouldn't have any belly trouble from the ToDay residue. Mine never have, and I'll freely admit, some of mine have managed to get to the udder before I could milk it out so they drank the whole dose. It worried me the first time it happened, but the vet told me it wouldn't hurt them. It's not ideal, but at least it turns out it's nothing to worry about if it happens.


----------



## mariarose

Mine got super slimy diarrhea from a full dose. They didn't seem in distress, it wasn't a sickness diarrhea, it was a mechanical, oily diarrhea. But I made sure I didn't make that mistake again... Perhaps because I always use a full tube?

Anyway, they weren't made sick. I just wouldn't do it on purpose.


----------



## Trollmor

The problem with kids getting mature before ready to get weaned is common here. I used aprons, that worked well.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Probios is always at hand, here on my farm.
> 
> Now, do not misunderstand me. You can't let the kids back on her UNTIL you empty out the udder in the morning. You do NOT want them to get a belly full of medicated oily milk.
> 
> So... Separate kids, milk, medicate, let everyone sleep, milk, allow the kids access to mom.


I completely understand.


----------



## healthyishappy

I will hopefully get it ordered today.


----------



## PetLover

healthyishappy said:


> I will hopefully get it ordered today.


Good luck!!!!!!!!


----------



## healthyishappy

Thanks!!!


PetLover said:


> Good luck!!!!!!!!


----------



## healthyishappy

So I got TODAY ordered today. :heehee:


----------



## healthyishappy

Damfino said:


> Watched your video, and yes it looks like she has some small infection going on (slightly worse in the top/right tray). I can usually buy ToDay in individual doses at a feed store. Your vet would also have it on hand. One tube can treat both sides on a goat (1/2 tube in one side and 1/2 in the other). I like to thoroughly disinfect both teats before insertion and disinfect the tube before inserting it into the second teat.
> 
> Empty the udder completely before treatment and then either separate the kids or tape off the teats so they can't drink. The medicated milk won't hurt the kids, but you want the medicine to stay in the udder for a good 8 hours to work. Usually it takes at least three treatments. Do you have another doe that can supply milk for the kids while their mother is in treatment? If not, I've personally never experienced problems with kids drinking the milk after medication, but I'll leave that up to your judgement.
> 
> What is your doe's udder like? Is it pendulous or too large for her frame? Are the kids rough on her when they nurse? Chronic mastitis often has a physical/traumatic cause and treatment may only get you so far. I've had a couple of does with extra-large udders that always had subclinical chronic mastitis because their udders did not have good enough attachments for the sheer volume they were producing. I would treat and it would go away, then a few weeks later it would come back. On the other hand, if it's just that the kids are rough on your doe, you may be able to prevent a recurrence by letting them nurse a couple of times a day under supervision while their mom is on the stand.


Forgot to get pics of her udder.
I'll get them today.


----------



## healthyishappy




----------



## Trollmor

What a patient goat, letting you pull her legs like that! :funnytech:


----------



## mariarose

That udder looks OK to me. Normal homestyle dairy goat udder.

I've seen far worse.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> That udder looks OK to me. Normal homestyle dairy goat udder.
> 
> I've seen far worse.


Ok's better than bad!!


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> What a patient goat, letting you pull her legs like that! :funnytech:


Ya she is a sweet goat, especially when I give her a bit of grain:heehee:


----------



## healthyishappy

The today arrived I will administer tonight.
So I just put the needle up her teat orifice and inject the TODAY?


----------



## Trollmor

Needle in a teat??? I thought it was some kind of a syringe!!! Press some milk out for lubricant.


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Needle in a teat??? I thought it was some kind of a syringe!!! Press some milk out for lubricant.


 It was a syringe. I thought it was a needle. I got a tube in each side of her teats tonight


----------



## Trollmor

Did she say it hurt? I did this once, and it hurt a lot!


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Did she say it hurt? I did this once, and it hurt a lot!


My goat is the kind where if she has grain you can do whatever to her. So no she took the first one fine and the second one (when she had ate all the grain) she kicked it out a couple times but I managed to get it in.
She showed no signs of pain just doesn't like me touching her udder unless she gets grain.


----------



## Trollmor

Clever goat, she has got the point! No grain, no stand-still! If she eats too quickly, do try some kind of delayer, like a CrossWord!


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Clever goat, she has got the point! No grain, no stand-still! If she eats too quickly, do try some kind of delayer, like a CrossWord!


Ok!!!
Shes a real kicker, I think I should get some hobbles!!


----------



## Trollmor

Be careful with your fingers, if she does kick while you apply them. But is not grain easier?


----------



## mariarose

Teaching milk stand manners is vital to becoming a valued dairy animal. Feeding more and more grain, thus rewarding bad behaviour, is a short term answer AT BEST.

I've never used hobbles. Do a bit of research on how to properly apply them before deciding they are your answer. I know that they method shown in many catalogs is incorrect, Nathan.


----------



## Trollmor

In my opinion there is a sense in co-operating with the animals. To delay the grain eating by putting it on top of hay or stones, in order to get peace for doing what you need, I think this is better than trying to force our will on the goat.

I do agree that milk stand manners must be taught, I only disagree about the best method!  To tie the legs of a goat each time I am to milk her, I would not stand that extra work! Prefer to have them eagerly queueing up to get into the milking box and directly up on the stand, even prefer to have to fight them off, to be able to get them one by one into the box. This box I also used for slaughtering, and the butcherer said "They seem so eager to get in here!" Which was true. (And sometimes I chose a "jumpy" one for the freezer camp, because I felt both she and I were fed up with the daily struggle. The placid ones then got the offspring next year.)


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> In my opinion there is a sense in co-operating with the animals. To delay the grain eating by putting it on top of hay or stones, in order to get peace for doing what you need, I think this is better than trying to force our will on the goat.


I have done hay but she just throws it out.


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Be careful with your fingers, if she does kick while you apply them. But is not grain easier?


Grain is easier but I only give her so much.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Teaching milk stand manners is vital to becoming a valued dairy animal. Feeding more and more grain, thus rewarding bad behaviour, is a short term answer AT BEST.
> 
> I've never used hobbles. Do a bit of research on how to properly apply them before deciding they are your answer. I know that they method shown in many catalogs is incorrect, Nathan.


So how do I teach her not to kick when she has no grain?


----------



## Trollmor

healthyishappy said:


> I have done hay but she just throws it out.


 :funnytech: Oh, I can SEE it! A quick twist with the nose, and all the hay plus most of the grain flying! :clever:

How about trying fist size stones, or a net, instead of the hay? Or perhaps a deeper bucket instead of the bowl??

I think we agree totally, that the amount of grain should not increase.


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> :funnytech: Oh, I can SEE it! A quick twist with the nose, and all the hay plus most of the grain flying! :clever:
> 
> How about trying fist size stones, or a net, instead of the hay? I think we agree totally, that the amount of grain should not increase.


Not very funny when she wasting my expensive hay!!!!
Ok i'll try stones.


----------



## Trollmor

Anyone remembering who shared a photo with a bowl with stones, for that purpose?


----------



## healthyishappy

gave the second dose today. I'm leaving tomorrow and will be back monday so should I give her the third dose on monday or just do 2 doses?


----------



## mariarose

Give her the third dose tomorrow before you leave. You need to not cut short a course of antibiotics, ever. 

Putting it off a few days is going to allow resistant bugs to multiply, leading to a worse infection. 

Only giving 2 doses will allow resistant bugs to multiply, leading to a worse infection.

Always finish what you start when it comes to antibiotics.


----------



## Trollmor

Yes, this earth does not need any more kinds of Killing Bacteria ...

Can you possibly ask someone to give the rest of the doses?


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Yes, this earth does not need any more kinds of Killing Bacteria ...
> 
> Can you possibly ask someone to give the rest of the doses?


Unfortunately no one in my area has this skill.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Give her the third dose tomorrow before you leave. You need to not cut short a course of antibiotics, ever.
> 
> Putting it off a few days is going to allow resistant bugs to multiply, leading to a worse infection.
> 
> Only giving 2 doses will allow resistant bugs to multiply, leading to a worse infection.
> 
> Always finish what you start when it comes to antibiotics.


Problem is that i'm leaving at noon. So how would I give her the third one?
Maybe if I milk her out this morning and immediately give her more then my bro could let her back in with the kids? only problem is that she wouldn't be milked out.
None of my family really interacts with my goats and none of them know how to milk. Which means the kids would be getting a full dose of TODAY. So what's your thoughts?


----------



## healthyishappy

Or I could milk her out real quick and put some more into her then before we leave milk her out? If I do it right now it would be in her udder for about 5 hours.


----------



## healthyishappy

@mariarose @goathiker @Sfgwife ?


----------



## Trollmor

Problem there! Maybe it is the least bad thing to leave the medicine in her udder until you can return, and then go at it again? What do you others think?

Of course, the best way would be to bring both goat and medicine ...


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Problem there! Maybe it is the least bad thing to leave the medicine in her udder until you can return, and then go at it again? What do you others think?
> 
> Of course, the best way would be to bring both goat and medicine ...


That won't work as she will have a full udder for two days.
I already gave more too her this morning and will milk her out before I leave.


----------



## mariarose

Do your best.


----------



## Trollmor

Aha, okay. We can only wish you good luck!!! But, how will your family manage, not able to milk?


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Aha, okay. We can only wish you good luck!!! But, how will your family manage, not able to milk?


What do you mean how will they manage?
I actually just decided and had my bro put the kids in with her after the 12 hour period. So they did drink all they milk but hopefully they will be ok.


----------



## mariarose

For a short term goal that is absolutely fine.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

I think she means, "how will they manage without being able to get milk for themselves?".lol


----------



## healthyishappy

Dwarf Dad said:


> I think she means, "how will they manage without being able to get milk for themselves?".lol


Not sure!!!


----------



## Trollmor

No, I meant how will any fill-in (Hope this is the right word!) manage to take care of animals that need to get milked, if they do not know how to do this?

@mariarose and others: Will it be okay for kids to drink all that antibiotic that I guess is in the udder?


----------



## mariarose

It's not ideal but once won't hurt.


----------



## Trollmor

mariarose said:


> It's not ideal but once won't hurt.


*Great sigh of relief!* thank you!


----------



## NigerianNewbie

Should probios be given due to suckling the antibiotics from the udder? :shrug:


----------



## mariarose

When he gets home, yes. He's gone right now and can't. But Probios is certainly an excellent next step.


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> No, I meant how will any fill-in (Hope this is the right word!) manage to take care of animals that need to get milked, if they do not know how to do this?


They don't I have been fortunate to have the kids to take care of the milking while im gone, not at all ideal but they just can't get the hang of it and actually started to make my doe super jumpy.


----------



## healthyishappy

I didn't want them to drink all the antibiotics but I had no choice. I'm home now and their poop is black pellets so thats good.
When can I start milking her again?


----------



## mariarose

When you are ready to. It might still be oily. If so, throw it away.


----------



## Trollmor

Welcome back home, and Good Luck!


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Welcome back home, and Good Luck!


Thanks!!


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> When you are ready to. It might still be oily. If so, throw it away.


Ok, it says 4 day withdrawal so i'll just do that.


----------



## mariarose

Don't wait 4 days before milking. You'll start to dry her up if you do.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Don't wait 4 days before milking. You'll start to dry her up if you do.


The kids will be sucking all the milk in that time.


----------



## mariarose

No. You need to milk her to keep up the demand. She'll start to adjust very quickly to only supplying what the kids need. Milk her, and throw away the milk, or give it to the dogs, or the pigs, or the chickens...


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> No. You need to milk her to keep up the demand. She'll start to adjust very quickly to only supplying what the kids need. Milk her, and throw away the milk, or give it to the dogs, or the pigs, or the chickens...


She has been feeding the kids all the time that she has been freshened.
I'm confused they keep her empty all the time so would that not make her produce more?


----------



## mariarose

I was under the impression you were milking her as well as the kids nursing her. How else would you know her milk was tasting bad? Now I'm the one who's confused?


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> I was under the impression you were milking her as well as the kids nursing her. How else would you know her milk was tasting bad? Now I'm the one who's confused?


I was, I would separate in the night and milk in the morning but as soon as I figured out something was wrong with the milk I stopped. This was about six weeks ago.


----------



## mariarose

As you wish, then. I think we thought you were milking.


----------



## healthyishappy

I will start milking in a couple days.


----------



## Trollmor

Hope you can empty the udder each time. This prevents many problems.


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Hope you can empty the udder each time. This prevents many problems.


I do empty the udder every time I milk.
What do you mean?


----------



## mariarose

We mean... It is easier to know the udder is empty if you milk. It is almost impossible to know the udder is completely emptied if you are just letting kids nurse. Because the dam doesn't let the kids completely empty her because they get too rough.

This is normally not an issue. It becomes an issue when you are trying to beat mastitis.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> We mean... It is easier to know the udder is empty if you milk. It is almost impossible to know the udder is completely emptied if you are just letting kids nurse. Because the dam doesn't let the kids completely empty her because they get too rough.
> 
> This is normally not an issue. It becomes an issue when you are trying to beat mastitis.


Oh she is definitely EMPTY. She lets them nurse whenever. Every time I feel her udder its empty except for a few squirts.


----------



## healthyishappy

I milked her yesterday and the milk taste WAY better.
Instead of a sour aftertaste it has a more sweet one. 
I'm going to do another mastitis test just too check.
Her cream production still SUCKS but it's fine I guess, maybe it will go up when she is less mineral deficient.


----------



## ksalvagno

Glad the milk is tasting better.


----------



## Sfgwife

healthyishappy said:


> I milked her yesterday and the milk taste WAY better.
> Instead of a sour aftertaste it has a more sweet one.
> I'm going to do another mastitis test just too check.
> Her cream production still SUCKS but it's fine I guess, maybe it will go up when she is less mineral deficient.


How long did you let it sit for the cream to rise? Mine takes a few days before i get any decent amount really. A cream separator might be a good buy for you if you are wantin lots of cream. She also just may not give a lot of cream.


----------



## healthyishappy

Sfgwife said:


> How long did you let it sit for the cream to rise? Mine takes a few days before i get any decent amount really. A cream separator might be a good buy for you if you are wantin lots of cream. She also just may not give a lot of cream.


I let it sit for 4 days and there is less than a half inch in a quart jar.
And it's not even a half inch thick just looks like it cause it all sticks too the sides.


----------



## healthyishappy

Sfgwife said:


> How long did you let it sit for the cream to rise? Mine takes a few days before i get any decent amount really. A cream separator might be a good buy for you if you are wantin lots of cream. She also just may not give a lot of cream.


I would love one but too buy a $300 machine for one milk goat doesn't work.


----------



## Sfgwife

healthyishappy said:


> I would love one but too buy a $300 machine for one milk goat doesn't work.


Just search all over the internet for one. . I saw one for $85 on cl the other day... i was very sad it was gone when i asked about it lol. It had been up for one day.


----------



## healthyishappy

Sfgwife said:


> Just search all over the internet for one. . I saw one for $85 on cl the other day... i was very sad it was gone when i asked about it lol. It had been up for one day.


Oh I hadn't thought of that.


----------



## mariarose

https://www.allaboutfeed.net/Feed-A...ase-milk-butterfat-levels-with-feed-1480522W/


----------



## Trollmor

The fat, like the rest of the content, decreases during a lactation.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> https://www.allaboutfeed.net/Feed-A...ase-milk-butterfat-levels-with-feed-1480522W/


Thanks for the info.


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> The fat, like the rest of the content, decreases during a lactation.


She has never had more than a half inch.
I need to get some alfalfa hay because that usually helps. They are on three way now and waste a ton.


----------



## Davon

healthyishappy said:


> I milked her yesterday and the milk taste WAY better.
> Instead of a sour aftertaste it has a more sweet one.
> I'm going to do another mastitis test just too check.
> Her cream production still SUCKS but it's fine I guess, maybe it will go up when she is less mineral deficient.


In my experience the CMT won't clear up for at least a couple of weeks even if the infection is gone. It is measuring the amount of somatic cells in the milk, not the bacteria. Somatic means "from the body." This would include white blood cells and other body cells, but doesn't include bacteria in my understanding. I would look for a decreasing positive test over the next month or so. That is what my goat's CMT tests have done with mastitis. If other people have had different experiences I would like to hear about it.


----------



## healthyishappy

In this pic it has been three days not disturbed a bit.
The line is to show where the cream is because it is almost impossible to distinguish. It's about a 1/4 inch.


----------



## mariarose

Alpines and Saanens are not known for being huge cream producers. The large proportion of cream to milk comes from the meat breeds, which makes sense.

Meat does are bred to produce big fat kids that very quickly reach market weight, soon after which the does are expected to dry up. So the output is only enough to feed the kids, it is going to be very rich in fat (cream) and then the milk is supposed to be gone.

Same with cows. Holsteins are the big producers of milk, not cream. The meat cows produce a small amount of milk (enough for the calf) and it needs to be rich for growth, and then it has to go away right away.

Alpines and Saanens are the Holsteins of the goat world. Large output, not a lot of cream.

And the later in the production cycle we go, the kids need less and less fat, so the doe produces less and less fat (cream).

Feed (and other nutrition such as minerals) can overcome this normal cycle up to a point, and that's why I offered the link above.


----------



## healthyishappy

Well thanks everybody I guess this thread is finally to a close!!!!
She doesn't have mastitis anymore and her milk tastes great!
No one can ever know how important this forum is too me, I came on here on month before my doe kidded started reversing the mineral deficiency, had healthy kids then corrected her nasty tasting milk. I have spent a ton of time, effort and money on this doe. But I'm sure the experience will pay off.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> I have spent a ton of time, effort and money on this doe. But I'm sure the experience will pay off.


That is so smart, looking at this like you were paying for an education. This knowledge and experience can never be taken away from you, and so you are richer than you were (in that way)

The longer I know you, the higher regard I have for you.


----------



## healthyishappy

And of course life is never easy.......
Her milk has turned back to the exact same tasting as it was before, NASTY!
What do I do?? I know that her milk without mastitis is obviously good but why did she get it again??????


----------



## ksalvagno

Did you test for mastitis?


----------



## mariarose

I agree. Test for Mastitis again.

If it is mastitis, then I suspect the infection wasn't completely cleared up and bacteria recolonized.


----------



## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> Did you test for mastitis?


No, not yet. Will do!


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> I agree. Test for Mastitis again.
> 
> If it is mastitis, then I suspect the infection wasn't completely cleared up and bacteria recolonized.


So then how do I make sure that its completely cleared up?


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> So then how do I make sure that its completely cleared up?


IF that is what happened, you are dealing with a stronger infection this time. So treating longer this time would help...

Some goats, because of damage to the inside of the udder, just always seem to have a mastitis condition. CAE, previous untreated mastitis, injuries to the udder, too large orifices allowing constant infection... I don't know your girl's history, so I don't know if this is a possibility or not. I've always put them down so that I don't keep having antibiotics around. But I don't like constantly feeding drugs for any other condition so that isn't a new thing for me. Culling for mastitis is no different for me than culling for susceptibility to worms, is what I'm saying.

First step is to test the milk again, and go from there

After you stopped the drugs last time, did you continue on with any support treatment, the garlic and the vitamin C?

If you test the milk, and it does not show up as mastitic, consider other things that could be causing a different taste in the milk. One big change you made recently is you offered a different mineral mix. Another idea is, did this one particular batch of milk get put into something not absolutely clean? Are there any new plants springing up in her browsing area that haven't been around her before?


----------



## ksalvagno

If it is mastitis, I would have the milk cultured. Then go longer on treatment.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> IF that is what happened, you are dealing with a stronger infection this time. So treating longer this time would help...
> 
> Some goats, because of damage to the inside of the udder, just always seem to have a mastitis condition. CAE, previous untreated mastitis, injuries to the udder, too large orifices allowing constant infection... I don't know your girl's history, so I don't know if this is a possibility or not. I've always put them down so that I don't keep having antibiotics around. But I don't like constantly feeding drugs for any other condition so that isn't a new thing for me. Culling for mastitis is no different for me than culling for susceptibility to worms, is what I'm saying.
> 
> First step is to test the milk again, and go from there
> 
> After you stopped the drugs last time, did you continue on with any support treatment, the garlic and the vitamin C?
> 
> If you test the milk, and it does not show up as mastitic, consider other things that could be causing a different taste in the milk. One big change you made recently is you offered a different mineral mix. Another idea is, did this one particular batch of milk get put into something not absolutely clean? Are there any new plants springing up in her browsing area that haven't been around her before?


My girl has never had any problems before with her udder, perfect orifice size.
No I did not keep on with vit c and garlic.
No my goats do not have any browse and they get hay all the time, which is alfalfa.


----------



## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> If it is mastitis, I would have the milk cultured. Then go longer on treatment.


What is culturing?
Sending in to a lab?
I bet everything its mastitis!


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Culling for mastitis is no different for me than culling for susceptibility to worms, is what I'm saying.


I would cull her with all this going on but my mom is too attached. 
I don't understand though how im supposed too have a dairy if I dont have a goat with good milk!!!!


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> No I did not keep on with vit c and garlic.


Once you test, and find out it is mastitis, treat it with drugs, garlic, and vitamin C, then I'd keep on with the daily garlic and C for the rest of her life with you.


healthyishappy said:


> No my goats do not have any browse and they get hay all the time, which is alfalfa.


That sounds like too much calcium. I'd find a way to up the phosphorus, copper, and the zinc, for her sake. Looks like you might be looking for a new mineral mix that is not 2:1 calcium: phosphorus. Calcium suppresses copper and zinc. Copper and zinc deficiencies can cause bad tasting milk. Sigh. Are you sure you can't find any grass hay to mix in with that alfalfa?


healthyishappy said:


> What is culturing?
> Sending in to a lab?


https://www.lancasterdhia.com/services/culture-lab
and
https://afs.ca.uky.edu/dairy/using-farm-culturing-system-identify-mastitis-causing-pathogens

One benefit of culturing is to know exactly what you are facing and what antibiotics those germs are susceptible to.


healthyishappy said:


> I don't understand though how im supposed too have a dairy if I dont have a goat with good milk!!!!


Perhaps her daughters will be better. Breed her to the best buck you can and keep the daughters you like. Eventually, this girl will pass away.


healthyishappy said:


> I bet everything its mastitis!


First thing to do is relax. Second thing to do is to test. You can't make a good move until you see the board.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> My girl has never had any problems before with her udder


I'm not contradicting you, but am very curious. How are you so certain about what happened with your girl before you bought her?


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> I'm not contradicting you, but am very curious. How are you so certain about what happened with your girl before you bought her?


Because I bought her just as she had her first freshening.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Once you test, and find out it is mastitis, treat it with drugs, garlic, and vitamin C, then I'd keep on with the daily garlic and C for the rest of her life with you.
> 
> That sounds like too much calcium. I'd find a way to up the phosphorus, copper, and the zinc, for her sake. Looks like you might be looking for a new mineral mix that is not 2:1 calcium: phosphorus. Calcium suppresses copper and zinc. Copper and zinc deficiencies can cause bad tasting milk. Sigh. Are you sure you can't find any grass hay to mix in with that alfalfa?
> 
> https://www.lancasterdhia.com/services/culture-lab
> and
> https://afs.ca.uky.edu/dairy/using-farm-culturing-system-identify-mastitis-causing-pathogens
> 
> One benefit of culturing is to know exactly what you are facing and what antibiotics those germs are susceptible to.
> 
> Perhaps her daughters will be better. Breed her to the best buck you can and keep the daughters you like. Eventually, this girl will pass away.
> 
> First thing to do is relax. Second thing to do is to test. You can't make a good move until you see the board.


I have plenty of grass hay around, its alfalfa that's hard too find!
I will look at the links.


----------



## mariarose

healthyishappy said:


> I have plenty of grass hay around, its alfalfa that's hard too find!


OK, I'd mix some nice grass hay with your alfalfa hay. Most people who are only on alfalfa feed, ALSO have regular browse. So a good grass hay will take the place of that regular browse.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> OK, I'd mix some nice grass hay with your alfalfa hay. Most people who are only on alfalfa feed, ALSO have regular browse. So a good grass hay will take the place of that regular browse.


Will do.


----------



## Trollmor

healthyishappy said:


> What is culturing?
> Sending in to a lab?
> I bet everything its mastitis!


If you let the microbes grow in a Petri Bowl (word??) it will be possible to test different antibiotics, to see what they really die from. Everything else is really a danger of promoting resistant tribes.

- Aha, I see that mariarose has already answered this.


mariarose said:


> You can't make a good move until you see the board.


True!


----------



## Iluvlilly!

healthyishappy said:


> Will do.


Did she end up having mastitis?


----------



## healthyishappy

Spades said:


> Did she end up having mastitis?


I haven't tested her yet I've been crazy busy. 
But I'll bet my life she does.


----------



## Iluvlilly!

healthyishappy said:


> But I'll bet my life she does.


Really?????????????


----------



## healthyishappy

Spades said:


> Really?????????????


Really??? Of course I'd not actually bet my life! 
But she had this EXCACT tasting milk and had mastitis.


----------



## Iluvlilly!

healthyishappy said:


> Really??? Of course I'd not actually bet my life!


:clever:


----------



## Iluvlilly!

healthyishappy said:


> Dont answer that.


----------



## Iluvlilly!

healthyishappy said:


> You can answer it


:ty: You are STUPENDOUSLY smart!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Iluvlilly!

healthyishappy said:


> Phew. I was worried.


(rofl)(rofl)(rofl)(rofl)(rofl):heehee::heehee::heehee::heehee::heehee:


----------



## healthyishappy

Ok, so I finally called them and they're sending me a vial and paperwork so hopefully I can get that sent off as soon as it comes.


----------



## Goats Rock

When you go to test for mastitis (you may know this, but others may not),Wash your hands and dry them, then: wash the teats well, dry off the teats with a clean cloth. Strip out 5 -6 full streams of milk and discard. (Should do this every time you milk). Then, carefully, without touching the teat to the collection tube, fill the tube and cap it. 

Be sure and label it with the date and time collected, which half of the udder it came from and goats name. (Yours too). Some tubes require refrigeration, others, not. Ask your vet. 

It takes a week or 2 for the cultures to grow in the lab.


----------



## Trollmor

Well said, @Goats Rock! I may add, that it is easier if you have an assistant with clean dry hands, who handles the tubes!


----------



## healthyishappy

Ok, so when I get the tubes I want to get both sides tested is that correct?
They have a 3 contagious test for 24 dollars or a complete 16 test for 31 dollars
I'm thinking ( and they thought the same) that since I already know she has mastitis then do the complete 16 to get a better understanding of what bacteria it is.

So that price is just for tube. Meaning its gonna cost me $62 to test both sides with the complete 16 test. Does that sound right?
I dont gave much money as school had started again but God will provide.


----------



## Goats Rock

You want to test both sides. But, someone correct me if wrong, why can't she put milk from both sides in one tube? After all the prep, fill half from one side, half from the other and shake it up good. After all, the entire udder is going to be treated. 

Just make sure that whatever medication you get, one tube goes in each teat. So for a 6 day supply, you will need 12 tubes. (As an example). That is where the main expense will come from.


----------



## healthyishappy

Goats Rock said:


> You want to test both sides. But, someone correct me if wrong, why can't she put milk from both sides in one tube? After all the prep, fill half from one side, half from the other and shake it up good. After all, the entire udder is going to be treated.
> 
> Just make sure that whatever medication you get, one tube goes in each teat. So for a 6 day supply, you will need 12 tubes. (As an example). That is where the main expense will come from.


I think that would work.
It's either test both separately and if I'm lucky then only one side will have mastitis so I would only have to treat one side so the testing would be more expensive but then the treatment would be less.
Or I could test one tube for both sides and save on the testing cost but then I might spend more if I only needed to treat one side.


----------



## Goats Rock

When a doe has mastitis, you have to treat the entire udder. Mastitis is nothing to mess around with. It's also one of the most frustrating problems to deal with!


----------



## healthyishappy

Sent it off to the lab yesterday!!


----------



## Iluvlilly!

healthyishappy said:


> Sent it off to the lab yesterday!!


I hope it comes back negative for mastitis!!!!!


----------



## healthyishappy

Spades said:


> I hope it comes back negative for mastitis!!!!!


Thanks but it wont.


----------



## Iluvlilly!

healthyishappy said:


> Thanks but it wont.


Just trying to help here


----------



## healthyishappy

Spades said:


> Just trying to help here


You're a great help. But trying to make me feel better about it doesn't help. I KNOW its mastitis!!!


----------



## Goats Rock

Soon as you know, then you can begin treating for that specific strain. Just curious, have you fed her milk back to her? Just a small amount. Sometimes this helps the doe to fight her mastitis.


----------



## healthyishappy

Goats Rock said:


> Soon as you know, then you can begin treating for that specific strain. Just curious, have you fed her milk back to her? Just a small amount. Sometimes this helps the doe to fight her mastitis.


Ok! I'll update what bacteria it is because I'll have no idea how to treat each different one!!! No I have not fed her her own milk. How much should I give her? And just through a syringe????


----------



## Trollmor

If the milk is okay for her to drink, you will most probably find her gulping it! Be careful that infected milk does not drop from her beard onto ground where the goats may lay down their udders!


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> If the milk is okay for her to drink, you will most probably find her gulping it! Be careful that infected milk does not drop from her beard onto ground where the goats may lay down their udders!


Why would she gulp it?


----------



## Trollmor

healthyishappy said:


> Why would she gulp it?


Did I use the wrong word? I meant, goats generally love milk! If they do not drink it, I presume it is bad.


----------



## healthyishappy

Trollmor said:


> Did I use the wrong word? I meant, goats generally love milk! If they do not drink it, I presume it is bad.


No, gulp was a fine word.
I just didnt think they would like it, but I'll try.


----------



## Trollmor

You do have "bad milk" to offer, and to a goat who might not be used to drinking milk, but nearly all mine were very eager to dip their noses really deep into the milk bucket if they had just a slim chance ...


----------



## Goats Rock

She only needs a few ounces. Just squirt into her mouth if she won't drink from a pan. You don't want her to want a lot of milk! I had one that almost turned inside out to drink from the milk bucket after I hand milked her.

The vet should tell you what medications you need whe the results get back. (Takes a while to grow the cultures)


----------



## healthyishappy

Goats Rock said:


> She only needs a few ounces. Just squirt into her mouth if she won't drink from a pan. You don't want her to want a lot of milk! I had one that almost turned inside out to drink from the milk bucket after I hand milked her.
> 
> The vet should tell you what medications you need whe the results get back. (Takes a while to grow the cultures)


Ok.
So the culturing is where they let the bacteria grow and multiply so they can see it under a microscope?


----------



## singinggoatgirl

I doubt they’ll look at it under a microscope. It won’t tell them as much as further testing will. Most likely, they will grow the culture on a plate (Petri dish). They’ll look at that plate without a microscope then scrape different bacterial colonies off that plate onto new plates. Those new plates will have different media for the bacteria to grow in. One will be a control where it’s a happy place for bacteria to grow, just so they can grow more for testing, and for positive control that they’re still growing bacteria well and haven’t done something dumb like accidentally used bleach instead of water to make the media. The other plates will be more controls to help them figure out what kind of bacteria you’re growing, and still others could be a variety of antibiotic-laced medias to show them what the bacteria is susceptible to. If your bacteria won’t grow on the media laced with antibiotic 1, but will grow on antibiotic 2, then they give you antibiotic 1 to feed/inject/ infuse your goat with, because they know it will kill the infection. They also know the bacteria is resistant to antibiotic 2, so they will NOT give you antibiotic 2, because it’s useless. If they’re a super fancy-pants lab, they’ll run PCR testing to know exactly what bacterium you have, but most I know won’t bother because it’s cheaper and sometimes more accurate/ helpful to just do all the plate tests. It doesn’t help to know exactly what species of E. coli you have if no one has researched how to kill it, especially when they mutate all the time, so the susceptibility test is more useful.


----------



## healthyishappy

singinggoatgirl said:


> they'll run PCR testing


Its PCR testing.


----------



## singinggoatgirl

Really? Cool! What lab are you using?


----------



## healthyishappy

https://www.lancasterdhia.com/services/culture-lab


----------



## healthyishappy

Ok, so here's the reports from the testing:
Both say negative!!!! But that has to be BS!!!! WHAT DO I DO??????


----------



## healthyishappy

Spades said:


> Good thing you did not bet your life


Be quiet
She still does have mastitis, the testing must be wrong.


----------



## Trollmor

Goats Rock said:


> She only needs a few ounces. Just squirt into her mouth if she won't drink from a pan. You don't want her to want a lot of milk! I had one that almost turned inside out to drink from the milk bucket after I hand milked her.


It is not unknown of that some goats get the habit of milking themselves ... Not very economic for the owner!

Thanks to @singinggoatgirl for the description of the culturing!


----------



## singinggoatgirl

I wouldn’t jump to the testing being wrong. Remind me again of her current symptoms?


----------



## healthyishappy

singinggoatgirl said:


> I wouldn't jump to the testing being wrong. Remind me again of her current symptoms?


Bad tasting milk is the only symptom. I treated for mastitis, it went away. Then it came back.


----------



## ksalvagno

Next you need to look at a mineral problem. What breed is she?


----------



## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> Next you need to look at a mineral problem. What breed is she?


Alpine. If anything shes WAY better now with minerals then when I started this thread!!!!! They get sweetlix and pwr and manna pro ( only because I have extra)!!! 
She just got a copper bolus a month ago and her coat is glossy.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

healthyishappy said:


> Alpine. If anything shes WAY better now with minerals then when I started this thread!!!!! They get sweetlix and pwr and manna pro ( only because I have extra)!!!
> She just got a copper bolus a month ago and her coat is glossy.


I didn't go back on this thread to look, what did you do immediately prior to her milk tasting good?


----------



## healthyishappy

Dwarf Dad said:


> I didn't go back on this thread to look, what did you do immediately prior to her milk tasting good?


She has always had bad tasting milk then I asked on here and treated her for three days with TODAY. She had great tasting milk after that, I let her kids nurse for another month and started milking again and the exact same nasty taste!!!!
Hypothesis: I didn't completely kill the mastitis bacteria and it came back.

So maybe, maybe she could not have mastitis but it's the EXACT same taste as before the treatment! That's why I'm pissed that the culture lab said she doesn't!!!!!!


----------



## mariarose

Nathan, why do you have goats? What is your plan for them?
How large of a herd do you see in your near future?


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> She has always had bad tasting milk then I asked on here and treated her for three days with TODAY. She had great tasting milk after that, I let her kids nurse for another month and started milking again and the exact same nasty taste!!!!
> Hypothesis: I didn't completely kill the mastitis bacteria and it came back.
> 
> So maybe, maybe she could not have mastitis but it's the EXACT same taste as before the treatment! That's why I'm pissed that the culture lab said she doesn't!!!!!!


Did you ever give garlic and vitamin c? Lavender tea tree dips? Peppermint oil on the udder, epsom salt warm compress?


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Nathan, why do you have goats? What is your plan for them?
> How large of a herd do you see in your near future?


I want milk goats! 
Just a small herd of around 5.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Did you ever give garlic and vitamin c? Lavender tea tree dips? Peppermint oil on the udder, epsom salt warm compress?


No, I haven't done vit c or garlic and can you explain the rest of them???


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> No, I haven't done vit c or garlic and can you explain the rest of them???


Alright if you ask me this is the time to do natural prevention and treatment.

Do 3 cloves of garlic for 3 days then 1-2 daily for 5. Start with that and we will go from there. Vitamin c could be 500-1000mg daily.

Take lavender essential oil and tea tree essential oil and mix 10-20 drops of each with a 50/50 water and apple cider vinegar solution. Dip udders daily. After the dip massage in peppermint oil (first dilute 10 in a few teaspoons of coconut oil).

Epsom salt, dissolve salts into warm water (directions for the amount/ratio is on the bag usually). Soak a washcloth with the solution and compress onto the udder. Can also add a few drops of peppermint into this.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

@healthyishappy ratio is 8oz of water to 2 tablespoons of Epsom salt.


----------



## healthyishappy

Alright. 
So I'm going to go on this herbal stuff for a while and if it doesnt clear it up I'm going to give some TODAY.So I gave 2 cloves of garlic and 1000mg of vit c tonight. 
I will do the other stuff tomorrow
Btw, do I need to separate the feedings for garlic? Or will three just once a day be fine?


----------



## mariarose

I'd give it how she'll take it... If that is the 3 at once, should be fine.

About the Today... I understand you wanting to repeat what "worked" before. But... Today is an antibiotic, and there are no biotics there to be anti to...


----------



## Trollmor

mariarose said:


> I understand you wanting to repeat what "worked" before.


If it did work ... It came back? Uahh for resistant tribes!


----------



## mariarose

Trollmor said:


> If it did work ... It came back?


I don't think so. The culture showed no bacteria this time. So giving an antibiotic is clearly not a great answer here. It's not a resistance issue here, at least not yet. But if Today keeps being used, we'll develop one!


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> I don't think so. The culture showed no bacteria this time. So giving an antibiotic is clearly not a great answer here. It's not a resistance issue here, at least not yet. But if Today keeps being used, we'll develop one!


So you think I should just go with what @NigerianDwarfOwner707 said?


----------



## mariarose

I think what she said can help and not harm. I also think that the kids nursing seems to be connected to the bad flavour, because each time you've not been milking, only letting the kids nurse. Perhaps the magic is getting that udder completely empty by milking it out daily, rather than drugs. 

I also think that you want a small herd but you only want to focus on milk production (yet you don't usually milk?)... You currently have 1 buck, 2 wethers, 2 does, and one doe's kids. Of all of these, only one is fresh, and she doesn't seem to produce what you like to drink without a lot of futzing around with it.

Ergo, I think it is time to rethink either your goals, or your chosen herd members, or your herd size. Because you are past your stated preferences already.

If you want to focus on dairy, then you have to make up your mind to milk, daily. (It's OK to not want to focus on dairy, I'm just going by what you've said)

If you want to increase your herd size to the point you can keep the nonproducers as pets, that's fine too. But this particular set of individuals will not allow you to keep a small herd of dairy producers.

If you want to keep your goal of dairy AND your goal of small herd number (5), then these individuals won't comply. And if you can't bring yourself to like the only producer's milk, then it is time to rethink this particular doe.

Milk that stays unpalatable is one reason I've moved does on, or relegated them to a kid producer only. And that is fine, too.

So, those are my thoughts...


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> So you think I should just go with what @NigerianDwarfOwner707 said?


Yes and all the garlic at once is fine.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> I also think that you want a small herd but you only want to focus on milk production (yet you don't usually milk?)... You currently have 1 buck, 2 wethers, 2 does, and one doe's kids. Of all of these, only one is fresh, and she doesn't seem to produce what you like to drink without a lot of futzing around with it.


Yes, trying to sell the wethers ( super inflated market) and I would milk but I dont because I find it pointless to milk and throw away! I will if needed.


mariarose said:


> If you want to keep your goal of dairy AND your goal of small herd number (5), then these individuals won't comply. And if you can't bring yourself to like the only producer's milk, then it is time to rethink this particular doe.


I'm fine with the Doe if I can just cure this mastitis. Otherwise I must move her along.


----------



## Trollmor

mariarose said:


> Perhaps the magic is getting that udder completely empty by milking it out daily, rather than drugs.


I believe in this!


----------



## mariarose

What mastitis? There's no mastitis. There's nothing for the antibiotics to work on. Seriously.

So, one of 2 things. The 2 episodes are not the same thing and you are looking as something new here. Or, they were the same thing and the Today and the better tasting milk were coincidental, not causal. I'm still thinking that the regular milking and not the letting the kids do it all (and maybe not emptying that udder so you got old milk) could be a clue. That's what you did before each of these episodes, right? So, try milking every day like an Alpine needs.

If you want a dairy, you must milk, because it is just as much about developing the udder, milkable teats, freshening longevity, creating a disciplined routine for yourself and for them, etc. as it is about getting milk.

You chose dairy. You can't ignore what a dairy goat needs from you. Otherwise, you may just as well have meat goats. You can still milk meat goats. I do. It is rich and creamy.

In point of fact, I really like Kikos for the plenitude of rich milk and the healthy kids. If I had to only have one breed, they would be homestead Kikos. Your climate may really favor healthy Boer raising, Or Spanish... There are other options for you.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

That is another reason we do not breed our does, getting too tied down to more things to do. Dairy anything has to be milked regularly. I am not a regularly person.


----------



## mariarose

And that's just fine @Dwarf Dad


----------



## Dwarf Dad

mariarose said:


> And that's just fine @Dwarf Dad


Some days it is, some days it isn't. lol I would really like a good supply of fresh butter and cheeses.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Take lavender essential oil and tea tree essential oil and mix 10-20 drops of each with a 50/50 water and apple cider vinegar solution.


This is the only one i'm confused about. 
How much do I need to dip her udder in? could I just soak a cloth and wipe it instead? or does it need to be completely immersed???
Does her WHOLE udders need to be dipped or just around the teat?


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> This is the only one i'm confused about.
> How much do I need to dip her udder in? could I just soak a cloth and wipe it instead? or does it need to be completely immersed???
> Does her WHOLE udders need to be dipped or just around the teat?


It's a teat dip. Imagine like a jar filled with it and just dunk each teat.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> It's a teat dip. Imagine like a jar filled with it and just dunk each teat.
> 
> View attachment 162063
> View attachment 162065


OH! Is it reusable? Because my mom doesn't want me to use very much EO's or ACV. Would a normal teat dip work? Or is this really the best way?


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> OH! Is it reusable? Because my mom doesn't want me to use very much EO's or ACV. Would a normal teat dip work? Or is this really the best way?


Yes it reusable as long as the udder is wiped and cleaned prior to dipping.

I'm sure a normal teat dip could help but this is what I know.

The lavender and tea tree act as anti-fungal/anti-microbial. ACV is the same but it also helps directly with fighting the bacteria that causes mastitis.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Yes it reusable as long as the udder is wiped and cleaned prior to dipping.
> 
> I'm sure a normal teat dip could help but this is what I know.
> 
> The lavender and tea tree act as anti-fungal/anti-microbial. ACV is the same but it also helps directly with fighting the bacteria that causes mastitis.


Ok, thanks.
I'm curious. What do you think would happen if you injected ACV in the udders? Would that work sort of like the TODAY?


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> Ok, thanks.
> I'm curious. What do you think would happen if you injected ACV in the udders? Would that work sort of like the TODAY?


Well I don't see how it could hurt. I've never heard of someone doing it but if you did and it worked you may be on the verge of a pretty darn good discovery!

ACV also creates an acidic environment where the bacteria cannot survive.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Well I don't see how it could hurt. I've never heard of someone doing it but if you did and it worked you may be on the verge of a pretty darn good discovery!
> 
> ACV also creates an acidic environment where the bacteria cannot survive.


Well then, I'm trying it.
Hope nothing bad happens!!!


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> Well then, I'm trying it.
> Hope nothing bad happens!!!


Start with the smallest amount possible in only one teat because you want to make sure your doe doesn't experience any reaction, I doubt it would sting but would be cautious.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Start with the smallest amount possible in only one teat because you want to make sure your doe doesn't experience any reaction, I doubt it would sting but would be cautious.


Like how much?
I will be super careful.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> Like how much?
> I will be super careful.


I mean like squirt a few drops in and see what happens.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I mean like squirt a few drops in and see what happens.


Oh, ok. 
Got it. Going to pick up some syringes then!!!


----------



## mariarose

Please don't do this. Add ACV to a cup of milk and see if that result is what you want in that udder.


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> Please don't do this. Add ACV to a cup of milk and see if that result is what you want in that udder.


Well obviously I don't want ACV tasting milk but maybe it would kill the bacteria?


----------



## mariarose

No, I'm not talking about the taste. Actually try it, feel it, and see what happens. 

Do you know the word "curdle"?


----------



## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> No, I'm not talking about the taste. Actually try it, feel it, and see what happens.
> 
> Do you know the word "curdle"?


Ok I will. 
I know the word curdle! Why?


----------



## Iluvlilly!

healthyishappy said:


> Why?


Probably cause it will curdle the milk?


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I thought this was a dry doe. Is it not?


Nope.


Spades said:


> Probably cause it will curdle the milk?


Probably. 
Itd be my luck.


----------



## mariarose

Adding acid to warm milk will curdle it. This is why you can add either lemon or milk to a cup of hot tea, but not both.

Adding acid to warm milk is part of the process of making curds, for cheese making.


----------



## mariarose

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I thought this was a dry doe. Is it not?


No, this is a doe that has bad tasting milk...


----------



## healthyishappy

Hmm.. well I'll have to get some milk and see if it curdles. 
I dont want to hurt her but if it would help I'd love to try.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> Hmm.. well I'll have to get some milk and see if it curdles.
> I dont want to hurt her but if it would help I'd love to try.


I don't know if it's ever been done so I honestly don't know what will happen.

If you're willing to test it the test it and if not, don't.

I would probably test it if she were my goat.

Simply because I've never known ACV to make milk curdle.


----------



## mariarose

I make cheese, and curdle the milk with both lemon juice and vinegar. I prefer the flavour of the lemon juice, but the vinegar is cheaper, so I usually use vinegar.

Nathan, Please don't do this. There is no bacteria there for you to kill.


----------



## mariarose

OK, I'm stepping away from this now.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I don't know if it's ever been done so I honestly don't know what will happen.
> 
> If you're willing to test it the test it and if not, don't.
> 
> I would probably test it if she were my goat.
> 
> Simply because I've never known ACV to make milk curdle.


Well I'd really like to try it. I dong see how it could be bad. If it hurts her I will quickly milk it out.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> I make cheese, and curdle the milk with both lemon juice and vinegar. I prefer the flavour of the lemon juice, but the vinegar is cheaper, so I usually use vinegar.
> 
> Nathan, Please don't do this. There is no bacteria there for you to kill.


I'm all for not doing and if he wants to do it to test his idea then, we'll. Okay.

I stand by my recommendation for a TEAT DIP.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Wait one quick question, what if you were to infuse olive oil into an udder, what would you say would become of the milk then?


I'd like to know!!!!


----------



## healthyishappy

Ugh....
I think both of you have the best of advice. 
I agree with mariarose and I like to stay on the safe side but then also what are the possibilities of what might happen with doing it? 
I can't decide. Two of the best informed people on tgs who disagree....


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

I’d like to add something that may have caused confusion.

Milk won’t curdle from acid unless it reaches its boiling point.

So that may explain why in cheese making your vinegar curdles the cheese, as it is heated on a stove, but not in a cup of milk when ACV is mixed in.

Now, the milk in an udder is not boiling (212F), obviously, so I don’t see a problem of curdling here.


----------



## mariarose

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> you were to infuse olive oil into an udder, what would you say would become of the milk then?


Milk and oil make oily milk. A good part of the Today Syringe is carrier oil. Which is why I prefer to insert the entire syringe into one side, because I can't be sure that each side would get an equal amount of antibiotic if I share one syringe between the 2.

The oil will NOT prevent curdling, if you also introduce an acid.

It's possible the goat's body won't heat the milk enough to allow curdling. That said, I never boil the milk. That makes the cheese tough and rubbery. But I'm still unclear what the purpose is. There is nothing to kill with the ACV. There's no bacteria. There's no purpose to this.

OK, now I am done.

Good luck.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> Ugh....
> I think both of you have the best of advice.
> I agree with mariarose and I like to stay on the safe side but then also what are the possibilities of what might happen with doing it?
> I can't decide. Two of the best informed people on tgs who disagree....


Read below.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

mariarose said:


> Milk and oil make oily milk. A good part of the Today Syringe is carrier oil. Which is why I prefer to insert the entire syringe into one side, because I can't be sure that each side would get an equal amount of antibiotic if I share one syringe between the 2.
> 
> The oil will NOT prevent curdling, if you also introduce an acid.
> 
> It's possible the goat's body won't heat the milk enough to allow curdling. But I'm still unclear what the purpose is. There is nothing to kill with the ACV. There's no bacteria. There's no purpose to this.
> 
> OK, now I am done.
> 
> Good luck.


Yep. My thoughts exactly.

The goats body will not heat milk to over 200 degrees.

Therefore, it's safe.

It may not do anything if you aren't dealing with bacteria in the first place, and if your problem is bad tasting milk I can assure you ACV won't fix that (LOL), but I really, really, am not seeing how it would cause harm.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Yep. My thoughts exactly.
> 
> The goats body will not heat milk to over 200 degrees.
> 
> Therefore, it's safe.
> 
> It may not do anything if you aren't dealing with bacteria in the first place, and if your problem is bad tasting milk I can assure you ACV won't fix that (LOL), but I really, really, am not seeing how it would cause harm.


But how could I not be dealing with bacteria? 
If before the today treatment it was bad then after it was good then it slowly just went back to the exact same taste???


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> But how could I not be dealing with bacteria?
> If before the today treatment it was bad then after it was good then it slowly just went back to the exact same taste???


Simply put, I don't know.

But it's best to cover all of our bases, yes?

Without the risk of chemicals being overused.


----------



## mariarose

Stubborn man, seeing only what you want to see. Read the results report. and then go back and read my input as to what this could and could not be. Specifically posts #281, 283, 285, 289


----------



## ksalvagno

healthyishappy said:


> Ok, thanks.
> I'm curious. What do you think would happen if you injected ACV in the udders? Would that work sort of like the TODAY?


Do not do that. It is one thing to drink it where it is going into the stomach. It is another to inject it into the body. I get it kills bacteria but not everything is safe to inject.


----------



## healthyishappy

Just curious, what would injecting peppermint oil diluted with coconut oil???


----------



## Goats Rock

I am going to interject here. Do not put anything except what had been tested for udders in udders. No vinegar, peppermint etc. the teats are an exit only. The only time anything should be put in the udder is if there is bacteria present. Then use only FDA approved medication. Your test said no bacteria, so no anti bacterial anything is needed. 

You may end up selling that doe. Anything you do to her could have a long term effect. Since goats are considered a potential food source for humans, a goat owner can only do approved things to that goat. If a veterinarian is involved, there are "off label" medications, but you have to follow the meat and milk withdrawl times.

The new laws are going to make it possible for every goat to be paper trail tracked to every owner. Don't screw up the goat or for that matter, your reputation by injecting a test product into her udder. (Actually, they only hope they can track everything!)

Please do not put vinegar in your poor doe's udder.......


----------



## ksalvagno

healthyishappy said:


> Just curious, what would injecting peppermint oil diluted with coconut oil???


Do not inject that either. You don't go injecting everything into the udder just because it is "natural". Even natural things can have very harmful effects. You don't inject peppermint infused coconut oil into your body, you certainly don't want to do it into an udder.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

healthyishappy said:


> Yes, I would milk but I dont because I find it pointless to milk and throw away! I will if needed.


You are looking at this part wrong. It is not a question of you needing the milk, it is the doe needing to be milked. In your signature, you have one friend. Does this friend's family drink milk? Can you give the milk to someone who makes soaps or lotions?
I know that will be a completely different mindset, that is something you will have to do from now on if you want a dairy.


----------



## healthyishappy

Dwarf Dad said:


> You are looking at this part wrong. It is not a question of you needing the milk, it is the doe needing to be milked. In your signature, you have one friend. Does this friend's family drink milk? Can you give the milk to someone who makes soaps or lotions?
> I know that will be a completely different mindset, that is something you will have to do from now on if you want a dairy.


Ok, I'll milk her.
Btw my friend lives in a different state.


----------



## Dwarf Dad

healthyishappy said:


> Ok, I'll milk her.
> Btw my friend lives in a different state.


It sure seems like everyone telling you what to do, not!
I can't see my self milking every day, so don't get the ball rolling.
I hate wasting stuff, too.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

@healthyishappy if you want something natural to infuse, how about this:

_Infusion_4_oz.html" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://www.firmeadowllc.com/store/p382/Udder_Blast_Infusion_4_oz.html


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> @healthyishappy if you want something natural to infuse, how about this:
> 
> _Infusion_4_oz.html" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener">https://www.firmeadowllc.com/store/p382/Udder_Blast_Infusion_4_oz.html


Thanks, I think I'm just going to keep with the herbal stuff you said for a while and then maybe try this.


----------



## healthyishappy

So did the garlic and vit c and the apple cider dip and peppermint massage.
I separated the kids last night and milked thus morning when I gave the stuff. 
I will milk tonight and give an Epsom salt compress. 
So this is going to be my routine:
Milk in morning then dip teats in ACV teat dip. Peppermint w coconut oil massage into udders. Feed garlic and vit c.
Evening I will milk and then dip teats in ACV solution and do a Epsom salt compress.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> So did the garlic and vit c and the apple cider dip and peppermint massage.
> I separated the kids last night and milked thus morning when I gave the stuff.
> I will milk tonight and give an Epsom salt compress.
> So this is going to be my routine:
> Milk in morning then dip teats in ACV teat dip. Peppermint w coconut oil massage into udders. Feed garlic and vit c.
> Evening I will milk and then dip teats in ACV solution and do a Epsom salt compress.


Sounds good!

There's also a great recipe for using clay on the udder to draw out any bacteria, so if you can get some powdered clay you mix with some water and olive oil and paint the paste onto the udder and let it dry. Once dry you can wipe it off and apply another if you want. Could be left on overnight.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Sounds good!
> 
> There's also a great recipe for using clay on the udder to draw out any bacteria, so if you can get some powdered clay you mix with some water and olive oil and paint the paste onto the udder and let it dry. Once dry you can wipe it off and apply another if you want. Could be left on overnight.


Yep. Will do. My mom already has powdered clay so I'm good to go.


----------



## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> Yep. Will do. My mom already has powdered clay so I'm good to go.


You can add a drop or two of thyme oil to the clay for extra benefits.


----------



## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> You can add a drop or two of thyme oil to the clay for extra benefits.


Will do.


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## singinggoatgirl

For the love of all goats and lactating females everywhere, do NOT “inject” (I hope you meant infuse) OR truly inject (using needles puncturing the skin) acetic acid (as your beloved ACV is named in my world) inside your goat’s udder!!!!! If you want to know her reaction, pour vinegar into a paper cut. Seriously. Don’t even think it again. The inside of the udder doesn’t have a nice thick skin to protect it from chemical burns (yes, ACV is still a chemical despite being a lovely natural product). 


I’ve read through this. You aren’t fighting bacteria. I have dealt with this exact scenario 2 years ago. Doe freshens. Doe’s milk tastes like a buck’s backside. Human sends milk in for testing. No bacteria. Instead of assuming the lab was wrong and contemplating causing permanent chemical burn scarring inside an extremely sensitive organ that could ruin her for future use, I stepped back and tried to look at the whole goat again. There are other causes of bad tasting milk than mastitis. Minerals and mastitis are the main culprits for bad tasting milk. With tons of evidence against mastitis ( zero symptoms beside taste along with negative PCR results) and questionable results for minerals (you haven’t mentioned copper boluses or cobalt blocks that I saw) I strongly recommend hearing us out and looking again at your minerals and milking practices. Not milking regularly can lead to drying off or partial drying off, which can make milk taste funky or even salty. That can be remedied simply by milking her regularly. Throwing away milk now and then happens. That’s part of owning a dairy animal. Thus the how the phrase “no use crying over spilt milk” is so wide spread. Lack of copper makes milk taste like a buck’s backside. Copper boluses are necessary in most of the USA on top of the loose minerals because most companies are too chicken to add as much copper as goats really need to their mineral mixes. You could try a copper bolus if you haven’t already. A sleek coat doesn’t mean she isn’t a little bit copper deficient. They don’t have to be deficient enough to be on death’s doorstep for the micro-deficiency to ruin milk taste. So does cobalt/vit B deficiency. It’s near impossible for a goat to OD in cobalt from a cobalt salt lick block, and it’s an easy and quick fix to many people’s bad goat milk. You have one person, whom I respect saying to keep treating for mastitis. You have MULTIPLE other people saying to look at other sources for the problem.


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## healthyishappy

singinggoatgirl said:


> do NOT "inject" (I hope you meant infuse)


I meant infuse.


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## healthyishappy

singinggoatgirl said:


> For the love of all goats and lactating females everywhere, do NOT "inject" (I hope you meant infuse) OR truly inject (using needles puncturing the skin) acetic acid (as your beloved ACV is named in my world) inside your goat's udder!!!!! If you want to know her reaction, pour vinegar into a paper cut. Seriously. Don't even think it again. The inside of the udder doesn't have a nice thick skin to protect it from chemical burns (yes, ACV is still a chemical despite being a lovely natural product).
> 
> I've read through this. You aren't fighting bacteria. I have dealt with this exact scenario 2 years ago. Doe freshens. Doe's milk tastes like a buck's backside. Human sends milk in for testing. No bacteria. Instead of assuming the lab was wrong and contemplating causing permanent chemical burn scarring inside an extremely sensitive organ that could ruin her for future use, I stepped back and tried to look at the whole goat again. There are other causes of bad tasting milk than mastitis. Minerals and mastitis are the main culprits for bad tasting milk. With tons of evidence against mastitis ( zero symptoms beside taste along with negative PCR results) and questionable results for minerals (you haven't mentioned copper boluses or cobalt blocks that I saw) I strongly recommend hearing us out and looking again at your minerals and milking practices. Not milking regularly can lead to drying off or partial drying off, which can make milk taste funky or even salty. That can be remedied simply by milking her regularly. Throwing away milk now and then happens. That's part of owning a dairy animal. Thus the how the phrase "no use crying over spilt milk" is so wide spread. Lack of copper makes milk taste like a buck's backside. Copper boluses are necessary in most of the USA on top of the loose minerals because most companies are too chicken to add as much copper as goats really need to their mineral mixes. You could try a copper bolus if you haven't already. A sleek coat doesn't mean she isn't a little bit copper deficient. They don't have to be deficient enough to be on death's doorstep for the micro-deficiency to ruin milk taste. So does cobalt/vit B deficiency. It's near impossible for a goat to OD in cobalt from a cobalt salt lick block, and it's an easy and quick fix to many people's bad goat milk. You have one person, whom I respect saying to keep treating for mastitis. You have MULTIPLE other people saying to look at other sources for the problem.


Ok, she obviously is still somewhat mineral deficient but not much. 
She just got a copper bolus a month ago.
They have a selenium 90 salt block. 
They have a hi-eddi salt block.
They have sweetlix, pwr, and some manna pro I have left over. All free choice.
Shes looking better than she ever did.


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## healthyishappy

Also I'm milking her at regular hours everyday now.


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## healthyishappy

The only other thing I could think of besides maybe minerals is that the sweet feed affects the milk taste. I could always pick up a bag of oats and see.


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## singinggoatgirl

“Looks better than ever before” is good. Don’t hunk I think you’re slacking off or something. You just need to know that somewhat deficient is definitely still going to hurt milk flavor, especially if she’s trying to catch up on copper or cobalt. If you know she was mineral deficient and is still playing catch-up, then there’s your milk flavor issue. 

Mineral deficient is something we can work with. Know that your minerals protocol looks really good. We are just fine tuning now. 

To help us help you I need you to answer the following: 


She had a copper bolus a month ago? What is the timing of that bolus compared to the first time you milked her and what timing compared to the milk tasting better?

Did she actually swallow the whole bolus, or did she spit some out?

Has she had any other copper boluses in the past? 

Can you send a picture of her in sunlight, and a second picture super close up of her hair parted so we can see the roots of her fur super clearly?

Are you continuing to taste test the milk?

Are you planning for the other doe to be in milk any time soon?


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## healthyishappy

singinggoatgirl said:


> She had a copper bolus a month ago? What is the timing of that bolus compared to the first time you milked her and what timing compared to the milk tasting better?


Sorry, this is confusing. But I can give you the dates of when I milked and when she had copper bolus. Yes she got a bolus August 9. So I had given her 8 grams copper June 12 and the milk was tasting good at July 7 but then when I tried it on August 8 it was nasty and I only gave her 4 grams copper the next day. 


singinggoatgirl said:


> Did she actually swallow the whole bolus, or did she spit some out?


She ate it all.


singinggoatgirl said:


> Are you continuing to taste test the milk?


Yes.


singinggoatgirl said:


> Are you planning for the other doe to be in milk any time soon?


Shes pregnant and due in January.


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## healthyishappy

So if both copper and cobalt highly affect milk taste then what are deficiency signs for cobalt???? Copper is easy but haven't heard anything about cobalt!!!!


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## healthyishappy

Ok I've got only one more question about mastitis.
Why would the CMT test be positive if the lab test wasnt??
I though the CMT test was super accurate?


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## ksalvagno

Lab work is usually more accurate than a home test. The fact is that a CMT test is a Cow Mastitis Test. So it may or may not be accurate for goats. CMT is a good starting point but further investigation is needed.


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## singinggoatgirl

Just making sure I fully understand: Is it true then that her milk tasted good one month after a copper bolus, and then bad 2 months after? That sounds exactly like copper-related bad milk taste. When the milk tastes copper-deficient, and you give a copper bolus, it takes 2-4 weeks for the flavor to fully improve. The flavor goes down-hill again as soon as that bolus gets used up. 

If she was SUPER Cu (copper) deficient before, I would GUESS her body will burn through boluses quickly at first because she’s trying to make up for lost nutrients. In my specific situation, I have to give Cu boluses every 2 months. If I wait to 2.5 months, the milk starts to taste bucky.

I’m afraid I don’t know anything about the CMT test, so I can’t answer that.

I’ll get to cobalt in a second. Gotta look something up.


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## singinggoatgirl

It’s been a month since the last copper bolus. How does the milk taste now?


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## singinggoatgirl

Cobalt is essential for the production of Vitamin B12. Signs of extreme cobalt deficiency are: anemia, emaciation, and declining production.

You won’t see it until it’s a huge problem. They can’t OD on cobalt, so I just always have a cobalt and iodized salt block available.


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## singinggoatgirl

Has the milk improved at ALL from the August 8th taste test.


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## healthyishappy

Yes, a little.


singinggoatgirl said:


> Has the milk improved at ALL from the August 8th taste test.


s


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## healthyishappy

singinggoatgirl said:


> Cobalt is essential for the production of Vitamin B12. Signs of extreme cobalt deficiency are: anemia, emaciation, and declining production.
> 
> You won't see it until it's a huge problem. They can't OD on cobalt, so I just always have a cobalt and iodized salt block available.


Well I the high eddi block I have has cobalt in it. I actually got it for that.


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## healthyishappy

singinggoatgirl said:


> It's been a month since the last copper bolus. How does the milk taste now?


Not very good.


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## healthyishappy

singinggoatgirl said:


> Just making sure I fully understand: Is it true then that her milk tasted good one month after a copper bolus, and then bad 2 months after? That sounds exactly like copper-related bad milk taste. When the milk tastes copper-deficient, and you give a copper bolus, it takes 2-4 weeks for the flavor to fully improve. The flavor goes down-hill again as soon as that bolus gets used up.
> 
> If she was SUPER Cu (copper) deficient before, I would GUESS her body will burn through boluses quickly at first because she's trying to make up for lost nutrients. In my specific situation, I have to give Cu boluses every 2 months. If I wait to 2.5 months, the milk starts to taste bucky.
> 
> I'm afraid I don't know anything about the CMT test, so I can't answer that.
> 
> I'll get to cobalt in a second. Gotta look something up.


Hmm.... you might be right! This time I only gave her 4 grams anyway and she probably needs 8 every two months because she weighs 150!!


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## singinggoatgirl

I'm not an expert on standard sized goats and how much copper they need, since I have dwarfs. If you ask nicely, maybe @mariarose could come back and help you figure that out. PICTURES could help, too... Maybe someone else with standard goats could help, too. I would wait to give her another dose until someone with standard goats can advise about dosing.


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## healthyishappy

singinggoatgirl said:


> I'm not an expert on standard sized goats and how much copper they need, since I have dwarfs. If you ask nicely, maybe @mariarose could come back and help you figure that out. PICTURES could help, too... Maybe someone else with standard goats could help, too. I would wait to give her another dose until someone with standard goats can advise about dosing.


Sorry! I haven't had time for pics yet. I don't know how to part the hair but it's my best try.


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## healthyishappy

How can you get an analysis on your ground?
Because I think she might just need 8 grams every two months!


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## Goats Rock

A good starting point for copper is 1 gram per 22# of body weight. Different people administer copper differently. For me, I give the copper when they are ready to be fed and are as empty as they are going to be. (Unless starving to death, a goat usually has a ruman with something in it, so,they are never completely empty). 

I give the bolus with a little bolus applicator down their throat. 
There are many ways to give copper, but the above works for me. I know they got it, they are relatively empty, so it will get into the ruman and hopefully, they keep their shiny coats and good milk!


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## healthyishappy

Goats Rock said:


> A good starting point for copper is 1 gram per 22# of body weight. Different people administer copper differently. For me, I give the copper when they are ready to be fed and are as empty as they are going to be. (Unless starving to death, a goat usually has a ruman with something in it, so,they are never completely empty).
> 
> I give the bolus with a little bolus applicator down their throat.
> There are many ways to give copper, but the above works for me. I know they got it, they are relatively empty, so it will get into the ruman and hopefully, they keep their shiny coats and good milk!


I put the whole bolus into a date and make sure they chew and swallow for a while!
They like them and don't spit them out!


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## mariarose

She is still deficient in copper.
The question is, Is she continuing to improve, or has the improvement stalled or even gone backward? If she is continuing to improve, then don't give her more until she stops. This isn't a schedule thing, it is an "observe your goat" thing.
Sweetlix is high in cobalt and so is that EDDI salt, so you should be good going forward with cobalt

The lab cultured and tested for actual bacteria. The CMT dectects cells, as has been explained. When you don't milk a dairy doe, it stands to reason that milk is going to get pretty concentrated, as the excess milk stays in there and then the liquid gets slowly reabsorbed leaving the solids behind.

They aren't detecting the same thing at all and aren't meant to. You paid good money for the lab tests, because they are accurate. So trust that.

Stop wanting to put stuff in your goat's udder that doesn't belong there.

Thanks for tagging me, @singinggoatgirl I hope that cleared some stuff up.


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## healthyishappy

mariarose said:


> She is still deficient in copper.


Very obviously.


mariarose said:


> The question is, Is she continuing to improve, or has the improvement stalled or even gone backward?


Stalled again.
I'm trying to get a pattern for her. Anf I think 8 grams every two months just might be it.


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## healthyishappy

@NigerianDwarfOwner707, for the Epsom salt compress do I just hold the cloth on her udders?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> @NigerianDwarfOwner707, for the Epsom salt compress do I just hold the cloth on her udders?


Yeah pretty much.

Hold until your arm gets tired or she gets bored.


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## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Yeah pretty much.
> 
> Hold until your arm gets tired or she gets bored.


Ok, thanks. I'll just milk and hold till shes done eating her grain and alfalfa.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> Ok, thanks. I'll just milk and hold till shes done eating her grain and alfalfa.


Simply hold until it is no longer warm, that's another way of knowing.


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## healthyishappy

So I've been doing everything suggested but no change in flavor.
I gave her another 4 grams copper on Wednesday so I guess ill just have to see.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

And what is the flavor?


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## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> And what is the flavor?


Its almost impossible to explain.
Its like a sweet taste with bitter aftertaste. But not like yum sweet milk its just NASTY!
I don't think its from the garlic if that was what you were wondering!


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> Its almost impossible to explain.
> Its like a sweet taste with bitter aftertaste. But not like yum sweet milk its just NASTY!
> I don't think its from the garlic if that was what you were wondering!


No, just curious because usually salty is mastitis bacteria.

The bitter is odd.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

Maybe just, dry her off and try again next time?


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## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> No, just curious because usually salty is mastitis bacteria.
> 
> The bitter is odd.


I guess it could taste salty too!


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## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Maybe just, dry her off and try again next time?


What would this help? between both her freshening's she has had this same tasting milk. That's why I really thought it was sub-clinical mastitis. 
I feel like drying off would only be putting off the problem till she freshens again.


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## ksalvagno

Copper plays a big role but selenium levels can affect it too, not to mention cobalt. Proper levels of B vitamins can also affect it. Then you have to consider what they are eating. Different weeds and grasses, alfalfa, molasses from sweet feed. I haven't kept up with what you have done but you have to look at it from many sides. Also, there are those few girls that simply have bad tasting milk no matter what you do. You have to decide if it would be better to sell her and disclose the bad tasting milk or continue to trouble shoot the right balance of minerals and food for her.


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## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> Copper plays a big role but selenium levels can affect it too, not to mention cobalt. Proper levels of B vitamins can also affect it. Then you have to consider what they are eating. Different weeds and grasses, alfalfa, molasses from sweet feed. I haven't kept up with what you have done but you have to look at it from many sides. Also, there are those few girls that simply have bad tasting milk no matter what you do. You have to decide if it would be better to sell her and disclose the bad tasting milk or continue to trouble shoot the right balance of minerals and food for her.


She has both a salt block with cobalt and sweetlix which is high in cobalt.
For selenium she has a selenium 90 block and I cant find any signs of deficiency.
For copper she IS deficient. I'm still working on that.
I'm going to get oats and take her off the sweet feed to see if it could be the molasses. They are not able to eat weeds and get alfalfa/grass hay which has no weeds.

So I'm going to try: 

Oats instead of sweet feed.
Getting her out of copper deficiency ( which I was already doing).
If its neither I'm going to try udder treatments.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> She has both a salt block with cobalt and sweetlix which is high in cobalt.
> For selenium she has a selenium 90 block and I cant find any signs of deficiency.
> For copper she IS deficient. I'm still working on that.
> I'm going to get oats and take her off the sweet feed to see if it could be the molasses. They are not able to eat weeds and get alfalfa/grass hay which has no weeds.
> 
> So I'm going to try:
> 
> Oats instead of sweet feed.
> Getting her out of copper deficiency ( which I was already doing).
> If its neither I'm going to try udder treatments.


Oh she's eating sweet feed?

That's probably your answer haha! Usually the molasses in sweet feed causes yucky tasting milk. The bitter sweet aftertaste is that.


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## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> Oh she's eating sweet feed?
> 
> That's probably your answer haha! Usually the molasses in sweet feed causes yucky tasting milk. The bitter sweet aftertaste is that.


It could be that and a copper deficiency!!!
But I'm wondering what I was feeding her when it was tasting good!!!


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## healthyishappy

So I got some oats today. I'm going to slowly introduce. How long till the sweet feed will be out of her system? Like a couple days???

So do I need to continue with the udder treatments if nobody thinks its mastitis?

What can you use to up protein % since I'm coming from 17% protein down to 9%?


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> It could be that and a copper deficiency!!!
> But I'm wondering what I was feeding her when it was tasting good!!!


The teat dip is a good preventative, so I'd keep up with it at each milking.

As for the sweet feed, I have no idea.

What is her complete diet right now?


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## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> The teat dip is a good preventative, so I'd keep up with it at each milking.
> 
> As for the sweet feed, I have no idea.
> 
> What is her complete diet right now?


I was going to keep with the teat dip anyway.

Diet. Besides minerals I have listed before is grass/alfalfa hay, protein block, and grain and alfalfa pellets on the stand. Sometimes I give beet pulp too.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707

healthyishappy said:


> I was going to keep with the teat dip anyway.
> 
> Diet. Besides minerals I have listed before is grass/alfalfa hay, protein block, and grain and alfalfa pellets on the stand. Sometimes I give beet pulp too.


That should be enough protein for her.


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## healthyishappy

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> That should be enough protein for her.


Ok, thanks.


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## ksalvagno

Does your protein block have molasses in it?


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## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> Does your protein block have molasses in it?


It's a protein tub, I apologize. 
It's this one: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/prairie-pride-goat-protein-pail-18-lb?solr=1&cm_vc=-10005


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## ksalvagno

Protein tubs have molasses in them.


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## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> Protein tubs have molasses in them.


So take the protein tub away for a couple weeks as well?


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## ksalvagno

I would if you want to see if the problem is molasses.


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## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> I would if you want to see if the problem is molasses.


Will do.


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## healthyishappy

So after taking the protein tub away and giving oats instead, her milk has lost the obnoxious sweet taste!
Also her milk has not so much of a bitter taste anymore. I think that may be from the second copper bolus kicking in!


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## ksalvagno

Sounds like you have found what you need to do to keep her milk tasting good.


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## healthyishappy

ksalvagno said:


> Sounds like you have found what you need to do to keep her milk tasting good.


Thank you everybody!!!!!!


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## Feira426

singinggoatgirl said:


> I've done both early weaning (8 weeks) and letting the kid stay on mom for 6 months (I was waiting to see if mom would wean on her own... it didn't happen). The kid who stayed on mom for 6 months was a Nigerian dwarf who was 3 weeks older than my 2 mini Nubians. At 6 months old, she was almost a 1/3 bigger by weight and 2 inches taller than her bigger breed companions. I had been running tons of fecals on those 2 wondering what was wrong with them, and they were always clean. They caught up eventually, but I was very impressed by the late weaning growth rate. I do not necessarily recommend 6 months for normal weaning, but I definitely like longer than 8weeks where possible. My dwarf bucklings are unfortunately quite... precocious, so they can't be left with mom longer than 8 weeks, but if I ever retain one, I'll probably start them on a bottle from day one so they can have milk longer.


I let my two does nurse their kids as long as they wanted to and they only just now weaned them at nine months! They are very healthy and robust looking little goats. Lol


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## healthyishappy

So I have this other doe, an Alpine/Nigerian dwarf. Her milk is SALTY. She is a bit copper deficient. But should I test for mastitis?


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## Feira426

Not experienced with this, but I’d say a test would be a good idea.


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## Nigerian dwarf goat

Wow, that odd! Check for mastitis, and maybe start a new teat dip? I use gentile iodine, and have had 0 problems!


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## ksalvagno

Salty is possible mastitis. Definitely test her.


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## Sfgwife

healthyishappy said:


> So I have this other doe, an Alpine/Nigerian dwarf. Her milk is SALTY. She is a bit copper deficient. But should I test for mastitis?


I am treating a doe for mastitis right now. :/. Ugh! But her milk was tasting off for two days before her udder was hard one mornin. I just thought since they were put on new grass that was all it was. So test just to be sure. Her milk smelled fine and had no clumps. Milked out like normal and she was and is still bein her normal self... nothin. Then boom hard udder... but no heat to it. The udder mornin she had a fever but none since then. She is still actin like nothin is off.


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## healthyishappy

I tested her with cmt test and nothing out of whack.
Her udder doesn't show any of the normal signs of mastitis either. She IS a bit copper deficient though. I'm working on that.


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## Davi

healthyishappy said:


> I tested her with cmt test and nothing out of whack.
> Her udder doesn't show any of the normal signs of mastitis either. She IS a bit copper deficient though. I'm working on that.


Is there anything she could be stressed about? When we first got our goats, they were currently milking, and we tasted their milk before we bought them and it was good, but when we brought them home it was suddenly INSANELY salty. After a few days when they got settled and calmed down it went back to being fine.


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## healthyishappy

Davi said:


> Is there anything she could be stressed about? When we first got our goats, they were currently milking, and we tasted their milk before we bought them and it was good, but when we brought them home it was suddenly INSANELY salty. After a few days when they got settled and calmed down it went back to being fine.


No, I don't think there is.


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## lovinglife

How long has she been fresh?


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## healthyishappy

lovinglife said:


> How long has she been fresh?


She kidded January 17, so almost four months


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## healthyishappy

I don't get it. Her milk was SO salty it was nasty. But then today I tried her milk and there was no off flavor whatsoever, just super sweet and creamy.


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## ksalvagno

Glad it is better.


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## healthyishappy

And its salty again.


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## wifeof1

I haven't been on here in a LONG while. And I admit, I did not read all 21 pages, but I went through this with my Togg doe. 3 things brought her back. I removed the cobalt block, copper bolused her, and ran a fecal.then wormed her accordingly. After 2 doses of wormer 10 days apart the milk is good again. Foamy in the pail good.


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## healthyishappy

wifeof1 said:


> I haven't been on here in a LONG while. And I admit, I did not read all 21 pages, but I went through this with my Togg doe. 3 things brought her back. I removed the cobalt block, copper bolused her, and ran a fecal.then wormed her accordingly. After 2 doses of wormer 10 days apart the milk is good again. Foamy in the pail good.


Thank you. Im ready to try whatever.


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