# Inducing



## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Hi, I have some does that are due on the 8th. This is a for sure date, no bucks on property since breeding. For schedule reasons, cae prevention and one doe having a bad birth last year I need to know I will be there to assist. How early is too early to induce? With lute. Would it be safe to induce them this evening? These are Nubians btw.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If they are due on the 8th, I wouldn't use Lute any sooner.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

ksalvagno said:


> If they are due on the 8th, I wouldn't use Lute any sooner.


Any sooner than when? And yes, they're due in 6 days.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

You need to give Dexamethasone first, that softens, thins and opens the cervix. (And helps the lungs of the unborn), then give Lute 24-36 hrs. Later. If you only give Lute, it is like the uterus is dead heading against the cervix. Very painful and hard on the doe.

I wouldn't induce before the 4th.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Goats Rock said:


> You need to give Dexamethasone first, that softens, thins and opens the cervix. (And helps the lungs of the unborn), then give Lute 24-36 hrs. Later. If you only give Lute, it is like the uterus is dead heading against the cervix. Very painful and hard on the doe.
> 
> I wouldn't induce before the 4th.


I'm not against using Dex. But have heard its essentially useless when doing reading multiple times?. I've induced with lute alone before, labor was no worse then natural. Why do you say wait until the 4th? I only ask because I have seen many people say kids born at 145 gestation are term. So just picking minds!


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> I'm not against using Dex. But have heard its essentially useless when doing reading multiple times?. I've induced with lute alone before, labor was no worse then natural. Why do you say wait until the 4th? I only ask because I have seen many people say kids born at 145 gestation are term. So just picking minds!


I am gonna sound like a complete turd here. So take this with a grain of salt. Nubians are a large breed goat. So their natural gestation os 150 days. WHY would you want to push that anymore than absolute necessary. I get the need to be there for the cae thing i do. The dex IS for kids as well as mama. Those last few days the kids lungs do a lot of IMPORTANT things in there. The dex helps speed it up for it to be safe to finish the induction with lute. If you are a woman or had a wife that was ever give petocin..... that shit SUCKS! And by only givin lute that is essentially what you are doin. Puttin that doe into now right now pushin hard labor. The dex softens the cervix and makes it more ready than without it. If the cervix had no plans for kids that day it will take much much longer for the doe to birth the kids.... so you are automatically makin it worse on her if her body is not remotely ready. Take an extra day off work to do it right by your doe....


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

I know their gestation length is 150 days. I asked why, because I have read some big breeders saying they induce for day 145. For being another question, are they inducing to kid on day 145? Or inducing day of 145?


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## NicoleV (Dec 12, 2015)

RoseCreek said:


> I know their gestation length is 150 days. I asked why, because I have read some big breeders saying they induce for day 145. For being another question, are they inducing to kid on day 145? Or inducing day of 145?


They were probably impatient, who knows. There's no advantage for the doe, just maybe for the human.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Some people who induce do it for many reasons, but at 145 days it could be because the kids are smaller and would be easier for the doe to pass. Or, so the owners would be there for the birth, because a vet would not be available at a later date, the temp is going to drop substantially. I have done it in the past once or twice for the health of the doe. I used both, the Dex and the Lute.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

lottsagoats1 said:


> Some people who induce do it for many reasons, but at 145 days it could be because the kids are smaller and would be easier for the doe to pass. Or, so the owners would be there for the birth, because a vet would not be available at a later date, the temp is going to drop substantially. I have done it in the past once or twice for the health of the doe. I used both, the Dex and the Lute.


Thank you. What gestation did you induce at? And how much Dex? One doe is Cae positive, and I need to intercept fast because of that. Outside of that it is anithe doe who had a bad bad time kidding last year, and my schedule with the weather. I by no means would risk my animals health on purpose. That's exactly what I am trying to prevent.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

So here's my opinion on this....
I totally understand your worry with the 2 does. What kind of kidding complications did the doe last year have that makes you nervous about letting her go on her own?

We raise Boer, so similar to Nubians. We've had to induce some does over the years due to pregnancy toxemia (triplets...).
Every breeder or vet I've ever consulted with has suggested:
1. Use both Dex and Lute (For our Boers we use 10cc Dex and 2cc Lute).
2. Don't induce before day 145 

Seems to take 24-36 hours on average for a doe to kid after being induced. So that means if you induce on day 145, the kids might be born on day 146-147. Some kids need more than 150 days in the womb. So it's a guessing game. 
Dex is very essential as mentioned above for both kids and does. Most common issue with kids born early is lungs not being ready. Dex helps to rapidly mature the lungs. It helps the doe's body to prepare for labor and delivery. So I ask... why not take the great advice here and use both? Dex is very inexpensive. I think a 100mL bottle is around $10-15. 

Do you happen to have a barn camera that you can use to keep an eye on the does? We use a barn camera when ours are getting close, they are such a huge help.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

HoosierShadow said:


> So here's my opinion on this....
> I totally understand your worry with the 2 does. What kind of kidding complications did the doe last year have that makes you nervous about letting her go on her own?
> 
> We raise Boer, so similar to Nubians. We've had to induce some does over the years due to pregnancy toxemia (triplets...).
> ...


Hey, thanks for the reply! The one doe lost her kids, they were certainly stuck. And shes an awful mother, she wont clean them off at all. We are also in the teens here weather wise.

As I said earlier, I have no issue giving dex, at all. Just wanted more opinions as I have heard people say the margin for Dex to actually do much for kids at this gestation isnt much, and it's an immune suppressant. Along with reading others say Dex + lute can cause a hard labor. So really just was wanting more information, from others too!

Unfortunately I do not currently, I had hoped to find one that would work here and had not yet. So it leaves me going in and out to check, and with a baby of my own, that can be a handful. I would do anything for my girls. Care certainly is not compromised here. Just trying to not lose kids this go around, especially with a storm coming in .


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Everyone has great advice, cannot add more.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I hear ya. Were the does kids really big, or not positioned right? Has she had issues before?

As far as using Dex/Lute, I feel that it definitely has not hurt anything with our does - births were normal. 
I do think the effects it has on strengthening the kids lungs is a huge benefit. I've saved kids using Dex after birth, so I have no doubts about it's usefulness on induced kids in the womb.

A camera is so helpful, we are fortunate to have our little barn behind the house -close enough for wifi signal, so I use a cheap wifi camera that I hang up when does are getting close. I stall them at night so I can watch them. It's addicting though lol, but so nice not having to run outside in the middle of the night.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

HoosierShadow said:


> I hear ya. Were the does kids really big, or not positioned right? Has she had issues before?
> 
> As far as using Dex/Lute, I feel that it definitely has not hurt anything with our does - births were normal.
> I do think the effects it has on strengthening the kids lungs is a huge benefit. I've saved kids using Dex after birth, so I have no doubts about it's usefulness on induced kids in the womb.
> ...


I've only owned her one freshening, this is the second. First time she freshened with me, kids small. I wasn't there. One dead. Other mostly dead but was able to get to life with a lot of work. Didnt clean them at all, had them and walked off. She went into labor last night, and shes still in labor. Laying down, not eating, walking super stiff if up, and had had discharge. No kids yet. I've checked her twice. I cannot get more then 2 fingers in her cervix. I just gave her come calcium. I hope this goes ok..


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

I hope all goes well. Good luck.


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## cristina-sorina (May 4, 2018)

Hope it goes well for you!

@HoosierShadow what is the concentration of your dexamethasone, how many mg/ml?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good luck.


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## SandyNubians (Feb 18, 2017)

Hope everything goes well. Very good advice given on lute and dex. Sometimes first freshener have a hard time and don't accept kids. Hopefully, everything goes well and she will accept them.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Good luck from me as well, and welcome to the forum! Humans and goats alike!


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

I think I need advice. Shes fully dilated and not even pushing.. I cant get past 4 fingers bc her pelvis is narrow. Shes just sitting like a dog or laying. Shes been doing this all day.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

SandyNubians said:


> Hope everything goes well. Very good advice given on lute and dex. Sometimes first freshener have a hard time and don't accept kids. Hopefully, everything goes well and she will accept them.


Thank you. I'm having issues with her labor right now if you see my post from a minute ago. But I bottle raise thankfully. I dont think shed ever take them, shes 3rd freshening. No interest, and I take kids for CAE prevention reasons


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Wash up, I would glove up and lubricate really well, try running your fingers around that cervix to stimulate it. If a baby is laying wrong in the uterus, the contractions can be weak. The baby pushing against the cervix gives the uterus a signal to keep pushing. (You probably know all this, others may not.) 
Keep working that cervix. Do you have any small handed people around? My grandson used to be able to get his hand inside and reposition the kid.

You may need to get a vet involved. Good luck.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

RoseCreek said:


> Thank you. I'm having issues with her labor right now if you see my post from a minute ago. But I bottle raise thankfully. I dont think shed ever take them, shes 3rd freshening. No interest, and I take kids for CAE prevention reasons


What goatsrock says! And if she been like this all day i would call the vet now as well if you cannot get in there.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

I will do that. Sadly there is not a goat savvy very around here


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Hopefully, any vet can help a goat in labor. I would tell them she is narrow, so they don't send out some meaty fisted giant male vet!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Your silence now alarms me ... :hug: Have thought of a turned uterus, which is not an easy issue to handle.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> Your silence now alarms me ... :hug: Have thought of a turned uterus, which is not an easy issue to handle.


I have another thread going if you want to check it out. I was trying to keep things more organized by making a new one


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How are things?
She sounded to be in trouble.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> How are things?
> She sounded to be in trouble.


Good and bad news. I checked her again this morning, felt feet. Still not even contracting. The head was folded back against the spine, and front feet both there. I tried so hard over and over to push the kid back down and get the head, over and over. It was not possible... I must have tried for 25 minutes.. eventually I had to give up and get it out. I called the vet multiple times for any advice he could offer. Naturally she was gone as soon as she was out. I went back in after, found more feet and a head on top, as should be, thank God. Got that one out, beautiful doe. That was all. I'm so sad about the first kid. And it confirmed what I thought last night, with her being open, but everythingwrong. The surviving kid is doing well. The mom, is relaxed but she went through a lot and is getting treated.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wish the vet could of been there for you, that is sad. 

I am so sorry for the loss. 

It is so hard getting the head back kids out alive, as it takes so long working on them.
I have invested in a kid puller, which at first was really hard to figure out. But after I did, it is easier and the odds of them making it increased.

Glad you manages to get it out. 

So happy you saved mama and her little baby.

:goodjob:


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I saw your new thread a moment ago. I am not so used to navigating on this forum.


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

toth boer goats said:


> Wish the vet could of been there for you, that is sad.
> 
> I am so sorry for the loss.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much. Me too. I have never encountered a head back like that. Not even with calves. I will look into getting a kid puller for next year. I'm devastated this went like this and I couldn't fix it. I guess it happens. And I'm glad the doe, and her other kid are okay.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

cristina-sorina said:


> Hope it goes well for you!
> 
> @HoosierShadow what is the concentration of your dexamethasone, how many mg/ml?


2mg is what the vet had me get.



RoseCreek said:


> Thank you very much. Me too. I have never encountered a head back like that. Not even with calves. I will look into getting a kid puller for next year. I'm devastated this went like this and I couldn't fix it. I guess it happens. And I'm glad the doe, and her other kid are okay.


I've dealt with head back in our goats and a couple of friends goats and they are brutal. I lost a set of beautiful kids years ago due to that happening and never been inside a doe before I didn't know what I was doing. It was just after midnight New Years morning, so no vet until about 7am. Since then I do what I can to get kids out, and so far so good. It's scary though, and always a huge worry, especially if I am by myself. Breech doesn't bother me, I've delivered breech by myself. But those head back kids.... ugh.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

And this head was back upwards, right? Not sidewards? Uuhhhh ...


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## RoseCreek (Mar 1, 2019)

Trollmor said:


> And this head was back upwards, right? Not sidewards? Uuhhhh ...


Yes. No sideways. But literally backwards ☹


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

As I was saying, good job, both you and doe!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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