# Sundgau? Tellin' a Togg from an Alpie???



## DarklingFarm (May 30, 2011)

Hello,

I am wondering if anyone can tell me if there is a way to differentiate a Toggenburg doe from an Alpine doe physically, not by color. I know sundgau is not a traditional Toggenburg color... but it seems there are some out there?

I have recently acquired a new doe that has Sundgau coloring. She was sold to me as a Toggenburg. Toggs are not a breed I am familiar with. I have had mostly Alpines and am just a small farm with only "family" interest in goats (pets, dairy, keeping the wilderness at the fence line and occasional pack trips into the hills). I've never even been to a goat show. She comes with no papers or background info... so I am not able to look her up. She is a complete mystery! (Hmm... maybe that should be her name!)

I've been Googling Togg info and I keep reading they are smaller than Alpines and in the pictures, a lot of them seem to have a longer coat. Well this girl is MASSIVE. It's cold winter here so she's got a good coat on, but it doesn't seem to be much different than my Alpine's coat... and she looks just like my Alpine, minus wattles (random genetics, I know).

Is there a way to tell the difference? 

Wylf

EDIT: Here's a picture of her if that helps?


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

I know this is color but Toggenburgs are strictly brown with white trim like this picture.










There are simply no other colors in the breed so say have a white patch on their side it is not a Toggenburg. Most Toggenburgs have a stockier build than an Alpine. Especially the old style but some of the new style Toggenburgs can look quite the same. Some Toggs can be down right huge so size is really not a good indicator.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Actually, there are black togs. They are registered the same as black obers. Black bucks are EX. Doelings from EX bucks grade up to AM if they are the proper color. Spontaneous black doelings from proper colored parents are not penalised.

Does she have a white belly? Sundgau Alpines have a white belly. Of course that doesn't keep her from being a black swiss Alpine. Every Tog I've ever seen had pretty long hair especially around the hind quarters and udder. Look for a tiny white spot on her cheek. Not all of them have it but, if she does, she's an Alpine.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

In terms of colour, in the UK which is where toggs come from, black animals were reasonably common and it was accepted there that black was a toggenburg colour. However, it is my understanding that in Australia and America the black is not accepted as a togg colour, which doesnt make any sense but thats the way it is. 

You can have a guess at it, since most toggs are a medium size, short and stocky animal whereas Alpines tend to be taller and rangier, however having said that, some toggs can be the similar style to Alpines so there really isnt any way to know for sure


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

GCH Schmidt/ECF Black Betty did quite well in her show career and has many offspring showing. She took 6th in the Nationals a couple years ago.
http://www.nationaltoggclub.org/nsyouth12.htm


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thats weird, she looks chocolate brown to me, definitely not black - EDIT - I mean the doe that goathiker posted a link to


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I would say Alpine based on the dished face and curley forelock. Plus the lack of Pantaloons.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I agree - the dished face looks alpine, she does look stocky and short though - maybe alpine x togg??


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## DarklingFarm (May 30, 2011)

keren said:


> I agree - the dished face looks alpine, she does look stocky and short though - maybe alpine x togg??


Yeah, that's another couple of observations I made... the face and structure, ear carriage, eye set... stance... Basically she is a taller, more stout version of my Starla (profile pic) but without the wattles. (New goat is also, supposedly, two years older) The picture probably gives the impression of her being short because there's nothing for the eye to compare and she is at a funky angle. I have Starla's goat coat on her right now because New Goat in isolation away from the barn and it's been cold... and she makes it look like she's wearing a barbie blanket or something. I can't wait to take her packing!
Tho I might need to get her a wider saddle...:think:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The Northwest saddles seem to fit the wider goats well. The Owyhees are for more narrow ones. Never have tried a Butthead saddle.

Karen I wasn't sure if the fading was because she's clipped or if that color is just what they call a 'black Togg'.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

hmmyeah its interesting. black toggs pop up here from time to tme and they have ro be reg appendix alpine as its not accepted in the togg.breed stamdard, but when they do happen here they are as black as black just like the OPs picture.


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## DarklingFarm (May 30, 2011)

*She's a Togg!*

The Lady I purchased her from just sent me all her information... she's registered, out of Evie's Toggs in WA. I went to the ADGA and looked her up even! I looked at Evie's Toggs website and saw all the gorgeous goaties there and feel especially fortunate to have this girl in my herd! WOW!

So it's settled.  She's a Togg!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Very nice, I saw they had more then one black doe refrenced. One of their bucks has that dished face too. Really nice looking place, bet you're excited.


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## xymenah (Jul 1, 2011)

DarklingFarm said:


> The Lady I purchased her from just sent me all her information... she's registered, out of Evie's Toggs in WA. I went to the ADGA and looked her up even! I looked at Evie's Toggs website and saw all the gorgeous goaties there and feel especially fortunate to have this girl in my herd! WOW!
> 
> So it's settled.  She's a Togg!


Awesome. She sure did look like a pure Togg to me but I have never seen a black one and I had never heard of them. Learn something new every day. Thank you guys for correcting me.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

I'm of no help on the colors, she is a pretty girl though. You mention huge, it may be the pic or she's just really healthy- is there any chance she's bred? She seems nice and full in the barrel


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## DarklingFarm (May 30, 2011)

clearwtrbeach said:


> I'm of no help on the colors, she is a pretty girl though. You mention huge, it may be the pic or she's just really healthy- is there any chance she's bred? She seems nice and full in the barrel


The photo is the one the lady I bought her from sent to me... I don't know when it was taken? I did ask if there was any way she could be preggo and she assured me there was not going to be any surprises. She hasn't had access to a buck for 2 years. I guess she is just really healthy!



goathiker said:


> Very nice, I saw they had more then one black doe refrenced. One of their bucks has that dished face too. Really nice looking place, bet you're excited.


I am SOOO excited! :clap: I wish I had access to a buck just like her! She's so sweet, too! Hopefully she'll show some interest in my old boy... he's not much, but he does a good job. :wink:


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