# alpine with an attitude



## SilverSage

I have a 5 year old alpine wether that I've had since he was three weeks old. With me, he is awesome, but he alway seems to want to push things with other people. Especially kids. He lives down with the bucks, since I don't feel safe with him and children unattended. If my daughter has a squirt bottle, he's fine. And when he does do something, there doesn't seem to be vicious (sp?) intent behind it. For example, once he got after my daughter and got his horn caught in her shirt. He simply stood there until someone noticed and came to his rescue. My daughter thought it was fun. :roll: He treats children like I see him treat goat kids. It seems to be mostly putting them in their place. I tolerate it because he's my baby and my only packer. And he's always supervised around children. If you show that you're boss, he's great. From what I have heard, this seems to be kind of an alpine trait. What do you all think? Is there some training tips I could try, or should I just look for a replacement?

Kathryne


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## sweetgoatmama

If all he's doing is just being bratty and not dangerous, you can either give everyone a squirt gun or even better, a coffee can of water to pour on his head when he acts snotty. This is more fun in the summer.


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## Rex

SilverSage said:


> If you show that you're boss, he's great. From what I have heard, this seems to be kind of an alpine trait. What do you all think? Is there some training tips I could try, or should I just look for a replacement?
> 
> Kathryne


I think its a "Goat" trait..... well, maybe Alpines are a little more ornery but hey they sure pack great!

I've had several goats who did the same thing. I always get onto them when I'm around and make sure the child has a squirt gun. Usually they get better about it and finally quit. It sounds like he's just being a little pushy and not actually aggressively going after them so I wouldn't get rid of him. Packers are too hard to come by! He just needs a little direction in life to help him understand what is acceptable behavior. If you get onto him and he doesn't listen, then by all means use the squirt gun, bucket of water or water hose. Make sure to use a gruff voice when administering the "training" so he learns that the gruff tone in your voice means bad things are about to happen. If everything else fails, buy a small can of pepper spray (not mace) and let her give him a shot of it on the nose. That has always cured mine from bothering innocent victims.


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## steve morgan

Rex, I like the pepper spray idea. Steve


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## Ann in NH

I have a two year-old hornless Alpine who's also not to be trusted with strangers or small folk. He's not mean or aggressive. He doesn't bite or butt. But he does rear-up on his hind legs, stomp down and toss his head sideways into people. Sometimes, he'll run by me and bonk me in the hip with his head or shoulder. Or he'll cut me off when I'm walking and stand, ears back and tail wagging wildly. It drives me nuts! He does it mostly when I'm hauling the garden cart to the manure pile. If he doesn't stop after two warnings, I tip and sit on him but I'm getting tired of wrestling a leggy 150+lb goat. He *can* be so darn sweet but when it comes the cart or visitors he is a huge pain in the arss. I've taken to carrying and giving guests a big super-duper long range squirt bottle. He seems to grudgingly respect it. I attribute his naughty behavior to being a teenager. Maybe he perceives the cart to be a threat? In any case, I'm hoping he grows out of it soon because I'm tired of the bruises!


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## Rex

Hi Ann,
Unfortunately the behavior you describe IS aggression. He is directly challenging you by rearing and cutting you off. 
The next piece of bad news is that he will probably get worse not better as he gets older. You are correct when you assume that it is because he is a teenager. He is testing his boundaries and getting away with quite a bit of mischief. This only emboldens him to do it more often and in an escalating fashion.

Here's the usual order of aggression.
1) Doesn't stand to allow you to trim feet or administer medication.
2) Starts by being pushy about getting fed or trying to get out of the gate. May push or poke you lightly with his horns.
3) Begins getting more excited and aggressively dominating other goats when you are in the pen.
4) When fighting with the other goats he passes by you and postures on the way by to see what your reaction is. (Posturing for those who may read this later is an aggressive stance where the goat holds its head high and tips it slightly toward you. It may have its body arched and hackles raised)
5) If you ignore the posturing it will become more and more common when you are in the pen.
6) The goat will also move closer and closer while posturing to gage your response to his challenge. Thats basically what it is, a challenge to your standing in the herd.
7) If the posturing goes unheeded the next step is to start cutting you off when you walk by turning sideways in front of you and intentionally blocking your path to make you walk around it.
8) Next is rearing up and stomping down in your direction.
9) This eventually leads to contact. Usually in an attempt to try and push you out of your space. It may be a "run by", where the goat hits you while running past. That tells me it is still wary of you and is testing his limits while doing it in a manner it feels it could make a get away if needed. Or it may be a direct approach of putting its head down and physically shoving you out of the way.
10) Last is direct head butts, serious horning and biting.

As you can see, you are already a long way down the list. The behavior is relatively easy to correct in the beginning stages but now that he has been allowed to progress it will be much tougher. Tipping the goat only works if you hold it down for an extended period of time. You MUST break its will to dominate you. If you hold it down for a minute you may have won the day but if you hold him down for 10 minutes (sometimes more) you are winning the war. As his aggression escalates, so must your methods to deal with it. I just read a story this month in Countryside magazine about a poor woman who was afraid to go out in her yard because of a goat she had raised from a kid. Its behavior escalated to the point that it would go after her when she went outside and she eventually had to get rid of it. The point is that you need to nip this in the bud immediately and aggressively.

Suggestions. 
1) When you flip him look at your watch and hold him down for a full 10 minutes. He will most likely give up quickly but don't be fooled. He knows you usually let him up when he's quiet and when you hold him longer he will eventually explode in frustration and try to force his way up. If you hold him through that and beyond you have accomplished the desired effect. Then when you let him up, immediately move forward in an aggressive manner to make him give you space. If he stands and gives you any attitude give him a sold knee to the ribs to make him move. (Just like a dominate goat would)
2) Do not let any thing in the list above go unchallenged by you. If he even postures in your direction when he is playing, deal with it right then, right there. Even if its only a stern word and a movement in his direction to make him move away.
3) Stay with the water soakers for guests and if he deserves a squirt make it a heavy soaking and miserable for him. (I like Carolyn Eddy's use of a full bucket of water over the head)
4) If he turns and blocks your path give him a solid "head butt" to the ribs with your knee to make him move. You should never walk around the goat when it blocks your path. No dominate goat would ever walk around a subordinate one. It tips its head in warning as it approaches and the subordinate goat either moves or get a solid head butt to the ribs to make it move. Thats goat communication 101.
5) If needed, step it up and use pepper spray or an electric shock collar.
6) Last but not least, don't give the goat multiple warnings when it is acting agressive. Deal with it immediately the first time, every time. Warnings only teach the goat it can get away with anything for a few times before you get mad enough to deal with it.

Keep in mind that just because the goat submits to "you", it may still challenge others so be ready to help enforce your rule with visitors. I'm sure under the surface you have a great goat. Unfortunately he's stepped over the line and its up to you to make him step back.

NOTE:
I have no doubt that someone will read this in the future and view the suggestions above as too harsh. To that person I would ask what future does an aggressive goat have? Haul it to the sale and tell yourself its going to be adopted by a wonderful family and have a great life? The honest reality is most will become worthless scrub goats with gnarly twisted feet and a load of parasites because no one can handle it to worm or trim its feet. Eventually ending up killed by stray dogs or on someones barbecue. Not a pretty picture. I'd much rather make things a little uncomfortable for the goat now so it can have a long, happy, productive life later.


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## SarahJean

I was told that whenever you have a problem goat that's being vicious, you flip it and pin it down... after a few flips.. the issue is usually corrected.. especially with bucks or wethers


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## Hasligrove

So what if you are up by number 1-3. I have 6 yearling Alpines. I use a squirt bottle when entering the pen in hopes of teaching them to stay back. They also crowd me a bit when I feed them hay. I have to enter the pen to get the hay in the feeder. Is a squirt bottle enough? They seem to be getting it but I don't want it to get any worse. I used to tie them up when feeding grain but I am not doing that now so it is a new thing. I also think they are all used to getting pushed around by eachother and I don't want them to think I'm one of them...but the boss of them.


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## Rex

Hasligrove said:


> So what if you are up by number 1-3. I have 6 yearling Alpines. I use a squirt bottle when entering the pen in hopes of teaching them to stay back. They also crowd me a bit when I feed them hay. I have to enter the pen to get the hay in the feeder. Is a squirt bottle enough? They seem to be getting it but I don't want it to get any worse. I used to tie them up when feeding grain but I am not doing that now so it is a new thing. I also think they are all used to getting pushed around by each other and I don't want them to think I'm one of them...but the boss of them.


It could simply be that they haven't learned their manners yet and are rude simply because they don't know any better. If they seem to respect the squirt gun and are starting to respond to you telling them to get back then you are probably fine and I would continue on with what you are doing. I wouldn't worry too much until I felt they were purposely shoving me out of the way. If the squirt gun isn't enough, go in with the water hose and make them all stand back until you are completely done putting the hay in the feeder. I posted some photos of my 2 year olds standing back while I poured the grain in the feeders. They aren't allowed to stick their head in the feeder until I back away. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=110


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## sweetgoatmama

I'd like to comment that there's a difference between training an animal to do a task such as stepping back while feeding and performing an attitude adjustment due to unwelcome agression.

If you are dealing with an otherwise cooperative animal who is learning a new task, pinning and flipping him is like beating your child when he doesn't understand what you ask him. At best you are just going to confuse him, at worst you will set up a whole lot of fear issues you don't need. :? 

On the other hand dealing with an agression issue is not going to be helped by softer training methods. All the goat sees is that you are a pushover, sometimes literally! A goat in this mode needs more drastic intervention such as flipping, pepper spray, etc.

But please be sure which you are dealing with before you decide which action to take.


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## Rex

sweetgoatmama said:


> I'd like to comment that there's a difference between training an animal to do a task such as stepping back while feeding and performing an attitude adjustment due to unwelcome agression.
> 
> If you are dealing with an otherwise cooperative animal who is learning a new task, pinning and flipping him is like beating your child when he doesn't understand what you ask him. At best you are just going to confuse him, at worst you will set up a whole lot of fear issues you don't need. :?
> 
> On the other hand dealing with an agression issue is not going to be helped by softer training methods. All the goat sees is that you are a pushover, sometimes literally! A goat in this mode needs more drastic intervention such as flipping, pepper spray, etc.
> 
> But please be sure which you are dealing with before you decide which action to take.


Well said.


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## deenak

I have a 2 year olf nigerian dwarf wether that was disbudded but not long enough and his horns have grown in. We have been making all kinds of excuses for his aweful behavior because we weren't really sure what to do with him. He uses those horns on the whole family to get attention not to mention what he does to the other goats. Thanks for the great advice


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## Rex

deenak said:


> I have a 2 year old nigerian dwarf wether that was disbudded but not long enough and his horns have grown in. We have been making all kinds of excuses for his awful behavior because we weren't really sure what to do with him. He uses those horns on the whole family to get attention not to mention what he does to the other goats. Thanks for the great advice


Two years old seems to be a common denominator in aggressive goats. I liken it to the teenage years of human kids who often feel the need to rebel against authority.


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## SarahJean

my nigerian must have been a grumpy old fart then. he was perfect until he hit 5.. then he became a living hell!! he'd attack me flat out.. so ... now he's tacos


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## Rex

If your Nigerian was a Buck thats a whole different set of rules. Bucks have an attitude about them most of the time. If he was a wether then he must have been grumpy.


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## sweetgoatmama

Bucks with an attitude at my house don't last long. I expect them to be as sweet as the wethers, otherwise they don't get to reproduce. Nothing like 250 pounds of raging hormones who LOOOOVES you!


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## Lightfoot Packgoats

Any goat who uses its horns on children is a serious threat and the situation needs to be dealt with quickly and with some skill. 

This is why I am always telling people that what is "cute" when they are a couple of months old is NOT cute when they are 200 + pound goats! I hope everyone on the forum reads these posts and the answers given. Rex is an expert with goats, as is Carolyn Eddy, they both know their stuff. 

My 12 year old daughter has a permenent scar on her chest and belly from a yearling goat with horns who tried to snag her goat, Gully with a quick, backward jab. Had he not pulled the blow he could have easily eviscerated her. When he swung his head at Gully, Gully (who was between Sierra and the other goat thus blocking her view of the other goat)moved back, exposing Sierra's tender belly to the tip of this goat's horn.

This little moment could have seriously injured or killed my child. I know I always get flak for saying this, but I don't think small children, especially non goat savvy small children, should be around horned goats without super close supervision and sometimes that is not enough with young silly boys or aggressive and ill mannered goats. Sierra knows goats, has been raised with them and she was nearly impailed that day. She was 9 years old and only about 44 pounds, so the size of a 4 or 5 year old. She's been around horses and goats since she was 18 months old. 

When an adolescent goat with or without horns is hiking or being handled by non-goat folks the risks are higher just like with horses or any other livestock or dogs. When a young goat (those 2 year olds are indeed often the culprit) isn't trained properly from the start these dangerous situations occur more often and it is the handler's fault for putting naive people in harm's way. The problem started long before they turned two, it doesn't just crop up out of nowhere.

I know many savvy goat folks take non-goat folks and their children hiking with their horned and non-horned packers and have done so for years without incident. BUT, I \ imagine they pay close attention to the people and goats involved and likely solve problems before they occur, sometimes without knowing it. I've seen many folks do this with their dogs, horses and goats, it is almost reflexive after a while and the novice goat owner doesn't have those reflexis until a few things have happened to make them take notice. A goat horning a child in the rectum would certainly make me take notice! The dorsal aorta is in that area, folks, if it is punctured, the child will bleed out in just a few minutes. That is serious.

Some goats are more aggressive than others, know your goats and make adjustments in hiking order, or chore lists or training, but don't put someone who is ignorant of goat ways or someone who is young, old, or slow in movement around the one likely to try to dominate them. AND, if you must, then please train both the person and the goat so that nobody gets hurt.

Please put those inexperienced folks in front of you with your goats behind you, or behind someone else who knows them and can handle any bad behavior as it crops up. Teach your goats not to wag heads, push past, bump into you or use horns on the trail and at home, NEVER let this behavior go unchallenged.

Pepper spray will work, but please make sure the goat gets it and not the child, it can cause a serious allergic reaction and should never be used without adult supervision, the direction of the wind matters a LOT! A shock collar with the parent holding the shock button might be safer for the child. The child has to be perceived as the one taking care of the situation or the goat may continue trying to take on the child when an adult is not close enough to do something about it. Goats are smart.

Also, in case this helps, there was a nasty mare at the stables when I first got my horse. My dad called her "Liver Lips" and she was a dedicated sneak attack biter. She would act very friendly and sweet and wait for the person to drop their guard and then bite them, sometimes quite seriously. My father always carried a breath mint spray (Binaca blast, or some such thing) in his pocket, when Liver Lips tried to bite him he had it in his hand and sprayed it up her nose. This was NOT what she had planned and for a while she tried to sneak up and bite him but he was always ready (he was a natural with animals and would purposely wait, relaxed, with his back to her) and soon she learned not to take him on or that awful stuff would be sprayed up her nose. It might work on a sensitive goat if the child or person can spray it up their nose.

A little bit of lemon juice or vinegar in a squirt bottle will also deter a nasty goat if it is literally sprayed at their eyes. It stings and burns but doesn't cause permenant damage, just a teaspoon will do. 

I recall John M. describing how he blew cigar smoke up one goat's nose, that goat never took him on again. Taking a goat by surprise and doing something out of the ordinary usually brings respect. 

Another thing that might shock a goat and would be painless (unless soaked in lemon juice water) would be a rag ball, soaking wet, thrown hard at the goat. If you are a good aim, you can hit them from a distance and make them think twice. Anything that can "touch" them from a distance while the "no" word is spoken makes a goat respect you, even if it is just a dirt clod lobbed gently. It reminds them that you can touch them from any distance so don't mess with you. If you have to replace the dirt clod with a small stone, this will cause no permanent harm if you aim for the ribs or hip. Pine cones and small sticks work well too. I use them all.

I had to have Sierra take on a mature (4 or 5 years old at the time) packer who was rearing up and threatening to hit her when she was about 7 or 8 years old. This goat always took on the smallest child on a hike, and pretty much thought all children where fair game. I tried putting him down, kneeing him in the ribs, heck, I was so angry once I punched him in the nose several times, but he always tried to go for Sierra the next chance he had. He has no horns. 

So, I gave her cottonwood "clubs" (as big around as my forearm, I'm a very small boned woman, a length of sturdy rubber hose would sting like crazy and work very well) and told her as soon as he started to posture (bugged eyes, ears back, neck up, you know the drill folks..) to whack him across the nose as hard as she could as many times as she could until he physically backed up and then keep backing him up (with body posture not blows) until he was moved back a good way, every single time.

I never tell my children to beat an animal, this is not how they were raised, but this goat was going to be tacos soon if this behavior wasn't stopped and clearly he needed her to take him on alone. I just gave her a set of "horns" to use. I literally had over a dozen cottonwood sticks in my arms, when one of hers broke I'd hand her another. She hit him high on the nose, below the eyes, not where the cartilage is and not in the eyes nor ears, she has a terrific aim and never missed)She would then occasionaly, when he got too close, turn on him, bug her eyes out, lift herself up and snort at him and then make him back away and down the trail, just because she decided he should. She was to move him from left to right, right to left and back, back and back again. I had her cointinue doing this the entire hike and then again back at the trailhead so that he knew she as QUEEN.

By the end of that hike he had stopped trying to take her on, she is 12 now and he has never taken on another child all this time and has become a model citizen, able to enjoy parades, public functions and 4-H shows. 

He has gotten a lot more years, good years, so in the end, even though his nose likely hurt as much as his pride that day, he's been a happy and well behaved goat ever since. BUT, Sierra knows goats, and was already fast, strong, coordinated and capable of understanding what to do and when to do it without causing him any real harm even though she was only about 40 pounds when this happened. A timid child would not have been able to do this and a child without good timing when it comes to training would not be effective. This is why an adult should hold the shock button on the collar, a child's reflexis and timing might not be fast enough for the behavior to be associated with the shock. If the adult drops the goat, the child should be on top, eyes bugged and snorting to let the goat know they are boss too. 

Rex, I know you suggested ten minutes, but honestly, I've held some down for 20 minutes or more before they were really contrite and not just playing possum. That is a LONG timet to wait for that explosion, but it sometimes keeps coming for that long.

I know what I had Sierra do that day was pretty radical and not too pretty, but the safety of other children and that goat's life depended on her success and I knew she was the child to do the deed. I was also there the entire time and ready to intervene should anything start to go wrong. 

I expect flack over this, I've taken it before, but that is ok, we all have different opinions. However, this goat is still alive and he would have been dead that week had Sierra not taken him on and won. She saved his life. I also get flak over the horns, but again, that is my opinion and I always recommend small children be around hornless goats when newbies are buying, it is just safer. Not safe, mind, all animals can harm and/or kill, even smaller goats and dogs can do great harm, headgear or not.

Charlie Goggin
Lightfoot Packgoats


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## sweetgoatmama

Holding an animal down is not a timed event. It needs to be down till it gives up. We held one down for 30 minutes at the rendy and up until the last 5 minutes when I would slap on him he would go ballistic. Take your hand and pat him pretty hard, if he blows again he's not ready to return to the land of the living. When he just lies there and doesn't move then slowly get up and stand over him.Don't make any noise, and just let him lie till he gets himself up. That's where the real training is happening, is when he is rethinking his position vis a vis you and him. Then after he gets up just leave him alone for awhile.


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## pbfarm

I am glad to have found this thread. We got a new-to-us goat in May. He is a 3 y.o. huge alpine x. no horns) I believe he was fixed about 6 months before we got him. Hand raised by the lady we got him from. He came to us as he was fine w/people but kept trying to mount even her mare. (hence the fixing). Husband said 'taco meat' and we are his last hope. I believe he is now feeling 'settled' in to the routine and our family as this is recent behavior.

He has begun displaying the 'blocking' behavior mentioned. Also he *will block, then run away, turn and run right back up to you screetch to a stop next to you. He does wag his tail and arc his neck.* This behavior is only in the early evening when my other goats would routinely 'go crazy' fooling around with each other, running, jumping and bonking heads. Now the only other goat just looks at him like he is a teenage hooligan.

To me it seems he is testing the boundaries, but also playing. I carry a cane out of necessity, so tipping this big guy might be beyond what I can do. Water I can do, lemon I can do.

I want to train him and hope someone has a step-by-step I can learn from. My plan 1st. back lesson. 2nd wait lesson. 3rd how to be led lesson. 4th simple commands, up, back, wait in sequence..5th pull a light load, etc.

A busy goat might be a more respectful goat too. Sorry if this has gotten a bit long. Any replies appreciated! Beth in Utah


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## Rex

Hi Beth here is a link to a discussion on teaching some basics to begin with. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=110


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## Bob Jones

Again I really appreciate your experience. 

When we hike the boys usually follow behind and I keep them there with a little wag of the staff if they get pushy.

On our last trip, they were a bit excited and I didn't have my staff. All charged ahead and weaved from side to side right in front of me. I didn't realize it was a challenge. 

But since I wanted them to follow behind me, I just changed directions 90 degrees which put them behind me. They would run to pass me where I would change directions again. I walked in circles for fifteen minutes before they started to behave.

On the next hike I picked up my staff and they all fell in behind as usual.


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## Bob Jones

I hadn't heard of tipping a goat, but they were small enough when I got them that I would carry them and also place them on my lap to trim their hooves. I guess I accidentally told them I was boss.


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## Rex

Bob Jones said:


> Again I really appreciate your experience.
> 
> When we hike the boys usually follow behind and I keep them there with a little wag of the staff if they get pushy.
> 
> On our last trip, they were a bit excited and I didn't have my staff. All charged ahead and weaved from side to side right in front of me. I didn't realize it was a challenge.
> 
> But since I wanted them to follow behind me, I just changed directions 90 degrees which put them behind me. They would run to pass me where I would change directions again. I walked in circles for fifteen minutes before they started to behave.
> 
> On the next hike I picked up my staff and they all fell in behind as usual.


Thats exactly how I do it Bob. If you add a command, like "Back", when you use the staff you'll eventually find that's all you'll need to say to make them fall back in line. Of course things will get a lot smoother with experience.

As a side note, I don't really consider a goat weaving on the trail to keep me from passing a sign of aggression. Its simply a goat thing to try to keep its place in line. I use the staff to teach the goat I don't appreciate it and they need to move over by either bumping them between the legs or on the side until they pull over and let me by. The first couple of times they will simply speed up only to slow down and start weaving a short time later. I have found its best to just speed up with them and keep aggravating them until they move over, even if I have to trott along behind them for a short ways. They are quick learners.


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## pbfarm

Hi! I first wrote about my big new goat who was becoming a problem. Working on it, I realized that part of the problem was that, as a juvenile, he needed more rules than I was laying down.

With work, he now follows politely, comes when called, knows the commands 'back' 'stay'. And that NO is NO. We are getting there!!
And we spend a lot more time, hands on..brushing, petting, putting collars on and off..lots of contact. (with rewards!)

A special THANKS to whoever suggested peanuts in the shell, too. It is our miracle training treat!!

Thanks!
Beth


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## 4capretti

Any suggestions on what type or brand of pepper spray? I understand that there are different kinds, some with chemicals. Don't know if that is accurate, but what I heard. I have a wether, the runt and lowest in the pecking order. All four of mine are two years old, but now this one guy is getting punky with a neighbor kid and sometimes with other people. I was thinking the neighbor boy can have a can of pepper spray, since flipping is not going to be easy with the boy. Also, I too have a heard time successfully flipping a goat, since I am a petite woman, 5'2" and 100 lbs.

What kind of pepper spray?

Thanks,
4Capretti
Dina D. Smithson

If everything else fails, buy a small can of pepper spray (not mace) and let her give him a shot of it on the nose. That has always cured mine from bothering innocent victims. 



Rex said:


> SilverSage said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you show that you're boss, he's great. From what I have heard, this seems to be kind of an alpine trait. What do you all think? Is there some training tips I could try, or should I just look for a replacement?
> 
> Kathryne
> 
> 
> 
> I think its a "Goat" trait..... well, maybe Alpines are a little more ornery but hey they sure pack great!
> 
> I've had several goats who did the same thing. I always get onto them when I'm around and make sure the child has a squirt gun. Usually they get better about it and finally quit. It sounds like he's just being a little pushy and not actually aggressively going after them so I wouldn't get rid of him. Packers are too hard to come by! He just needs a little direction in life to help him understand what is acceptable behavior. If you get onto him and he doesn't listen, then by all means use the squirt gun, bucket of water or water hose. Make sure to use a gruff voice when administering the "training" so he learns that the gruff tone in your voice means bad things are about to happen. If everything else fails, buy a small can of pepper spray (not mace) and let her give him a shot of it on the nose. That has always cured mine from bothering innocent victims.
Click to expand...


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## Rex

I think all pepper spray would be safe considering it is meant to be sprayed on an animal/human. Stay away from the foaming kind and use the aerosol. I prefer the 10% formula when I can get it. Otherwise make sure it has at least 5% Oleoresin Capsicum. Thats the stuff from the hot pepper that makes it all work.


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## 4capretti

Thanks, Rex. 

Dina
4Capretti


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## Bob Jones

Rex said:


> Otherwise make sure it has at least 5% Oleoresin Capsicum.


It's great for survival eating. Spray it on the worms and grubs to make them palatable... or at least to make you not care if they're palatable. ;-)


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## 4capretti

Rex,

More about pepper spray: I am finding online, 5%, and also the 10% that you mentioned, but there are also ones as high as 15 and 17% capsicum. The info said that in some states that high of % is not allowed. Do you think I should got for the higher one, like 17% or is this too strong? I can get 10% but wanted to ask what you think about the higher percentages.

Also, after the deed is done, do you just let it wear off on its own, or do you give it a few minutes and then hose off the goat's face?

Thanks again,
Dina


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## TDG-Farms

Id use a shock collar before pepper spray. If you are thinking the spray is more humane, test them both out on yourself and then you will understand. The shock is instant and over. Pepper spray lasts a long time. Long enough for them to have no idea why you did it.

Here, with 50 to 100 goats at any one time, we only have problems with 2 kinds. First, breeding bucks and even then only when we are pulling one out to do his duty. The others get worked up and have been known to get a little pushy. Second and most feared on any goat farm... babies rushing the door to get to the lambar!!! Oh the carnage!!!  Wanna try something fun? Try holding back 20 babies in a attempt to let just a few in  But other then that, we teach them very young that anything other then total respect is not acceptable. If they see you as the herd boss, they will not challenge you. If they are bad, they get reprimanded until they totally stop and then ignored for an appropriate amount of time. If you watch your goat herd boss, they discipline and then ignore. Even something as simple as turning in front of you is unacceptable. Their reprimand doesnt have to hurt. Goat stops in front of you, bat their ears like you are waving a fly off your dinner plate. If they challenge you at anytime, you keep on them until they run away and want nothing more to do with you. Just like a herd boss does when challenge. Tomorrow they will love you all the same. Oh and the pinning down thing, gets old fast and as far my experience, doesnt work. They have no idea what you are doing.


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## ryorkies

I agree on the pinning down thing. 

I find a light smack on the nose with a small stick
gets me a whole lot more respect. Now if I get
any attitude I just pick up any twig. And Julio 
shakes his head and walks away.
With out me even touching him. Just the twig being
in my hand is enough.


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## idahonancy

My bossy boy hates having his ears batted. You can tap them with a twig and he runs. This only works if your goats have ears.


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## Rex

4capretti said:


> Rex,
> 
> More about pepper spray: I am finding online, 5%, and also the 10% that you mentioned, but there are also ones as high as 15 and 17% capsicum. The info said that in some states that high of % is not allowed. Do you think I should got for the higher one, like 17% or is this too strong? I can get 10% but wanted to ask what you think about the higher percentages.
> 
> Also, after the deed is done, do you just let it wear off on its own, or do you give it a few minutes and then hose off the goat's face?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Dina


The 5-10% is plenty hot enough to get the job done. No need to get anything more than that. I can testify that the goat can easily remember why it was sprayed. It only lasts for a few minutes and the goat usually rubs it off in the grass or on a wood post. I use the shock collar as well but many folks don't have one and pepper spray is cheap and easy to use. Just make sure to spray downwind of yourself.

As a side note I was a cop for over a decade and was required to be sprayed several times over the years to retain my "spray" certification. It burns like heck for a while them dissapates. Using water on dried pepper spray will rehydrate it and start the burn all over. If you want to wash it off make sure to do it while it is still wet in the beginning. Normally the goat is keeping its distance at this point so I generally let it run its course. Remember you are trying to change a dangerous behavior and allowing it some time for reflection can be a good thing. I have never had to spray a goat twice so they totally understand why they got it and don't want to risk it again.


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## TDG-Farms

"Dont tase me bro!"  sorry Rex, couldnt let that one slide  Was wondering what kinda collar do you prefer for your packers. I found a nice horse lead in my herd colors so am good there but trying to find an adequate collar is becoming rather difficult. I found an ok nylon one that is about twice as wide as a normal one. Will fit an adult very well, but my Legion is still only 3 months and as we are just now lead training, the big one is... well, ridiculous. Any ideas? Thanks


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## Bob Jones

Dave said:


> ...my Legion is still only 3 months ...


I changed "Diablo" to "Diego" when I got him... Legion... you must have one nasty goat. ;-)


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## Rex

Dave said:


> "Dont tase me bro!"  sorry Rex, couldnt let that one slide  Was wondering what kinda collar do you prefer for your packers. I found a nice horse lead in my herd colors so am good there but trying to find an adequate collar is becoming rather difficult. I found an ok nylon one that is about twice as wide as a normal one. Will fit an adult very well, but my Legion is still only 3 months and as we are just now lead training, the big one is... well, ridiculous. Any ideas? Thanks


LOL......BOB

Dave, I just use a double ply nylon collar. You can melt holes in it with a nail if you need to snug it down smaller when they are little and then expand it out as they grow. It is 1 inch wide. I'm curious about the wider one you mentioned? It sounds interesting.


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## TDG-Farms

To be totally honest, Legion is the sweetest goat I have ever had. He was born a week early. Two weeks before Legions scheduled due date, his dam was fighting. She is daughter to the herd boss and a high ranking goat her self. She and another matriarch had been fighting hard off and on for nearly the entire day. Its at this time we believe the fetuses seperated from the uterus wall. So a week later she went into labor early but didnt contract. Most of the day passed and she never dilated more then 2 fingers. Knowing something bad was happening, my other half started to work on her cervix. It took 4 hours to get her dilated. With much effort we got the first kid out (Legion). To our surprise he was alive. We had given up hope way earlier in the day. A week premature is pretty much the no hope point for goats. Anyways, he was free floating. He was a mess. But he was strong and good sized, all his hair was good. So we let Saqqara, his dam, clean him up and we went in after the other(s) as she was still not contacting on her own. The second kid was about the same size but by the decomp it was obvious he had been dead about a week.

Quick side note, Saqqara started to contract after that and 6 hours later she was still contracting and had not passed her placenta. So my other half went back in and found a very small even nastier third kid. She never did pass the P so never expect her to kid again (we will see this fall) even though she never once got a fever or felt ill other then on and off contractions over the next 6 days. Still gave her 10 days of penicillin to be safe.

So back to Legion, after the second kid, we went inside for a few to clean up. When we came back out 15 min. later, I picked up Legion and noticed his ribs felt real weird. Got to feeling around them and the entire set on the left side were broken. When a doe is "digging" a spot to lay down to give birth, they often times end up kicking kids. They dont want to walk away from and even if they do, one call from the kid and the mom is back at it. So over the years, we have had to police dams so they dont kill their kids by mistake trying to "dig" a spot to lay down and contract. This is what we figured happened to Legion. He was fine when we left him to get cleaned up by his mom and when we came back he was covered in dirt and had the broken ribs. To finish up the store of Legion, took him in, washed him. Talk about tough trying to wash a kid with broken ribs. A few times they ground together and nearly made me sick. Anyways, after the wash put him in a tote and went out to finish up with his mama. Came back in an hour later and he was STANDING and trying to nurse the tote handle. Got some colostrum read and he ate like a champ. Here is a baby goat, 1 week early, broken ribs and he is standing and eating while standing. I knew right then and there, he was going into the pack prospect program. What I didnt intend was his sweet personality. This boy will walk up to me and look me in the eyes and wait for me to pet his face, ears, horns, eyes, neck legs, belly, it dont matter where and he will just stand there with that sleepy look on his face flagging his tail slowly. Ill let him into the back yard, let him wonder around with me for a few and then sit down. He will walk over to me, lean against my chest, slide down and either sit or lay in my lap. So now he is mine as much as I am his. OH and his ribs, totally set themselves as the vet said they would and you can only tell anything was ever wrong cept on one rib.

Now to answer some questions

Bob  I named him Legion because for 14 years I have named nothing but does. I have waited FOR EVER to use tough bad ass names and this was my year! So Legion got his cool name and then I had 10 other pack prospects to name with super cool manly names! So I named them; Pretty Boy Floyd, One sock, Fun Boy, Nice Boy, Goshen, Fred, lil munch. Talk about "udder" failure. Hell, my other half and my niece did better then I did. They named one Bruiser and one Justice. Well, at least I got one 

Rex, I took a pick of the collar. Here is the link to it; http://trinitypackgoats.webs.com/apps/p ... =157291231
believe it or not, found it at Wal-Mart of all places. Its strong and seem well made. Though only cost me 7 bucks. So will see. If you are interested and cant find it in your area, let me know and I can go pick up some up for you and send em to ya. Ill check walmart.com and see if by chance they have em there as well.

EDIT: nope on on their website. Ill have to go check out the manufacturer and see if they have a site


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## Nanno

You have beautiful goats, Dave. And that's one heck of a fat collar! Why do you like it so wide? It looks like the ones I use on my horses! (Yes, I use cow collars on my horses instead of halters most of the time--I'm weird like that).

You say you want your goat to have a manly name. Well a manly goat should have a manly collar! May I suggest studded leather! I got this one for about $6 from Jeffers:
[attachment=0:36jncbsx]Cuzco_Bling.jpg[/attachment:36jncbsx]

Some people have a different experience, but I've found I much prefer leather over nylon. Cuzco used to have a lot of brittle, broken hair on his neck from his nylon collar chafing. When we moved to a neighborhood for a few years, he had to be on a tether 24/7, so then we _really_ had a problem with chafing. Not just broken hair, but balding and irritated skin. So after a few months of that I tried leather and never looked back. He could wear leather even when chained and not have more than a slight ripple in the hair. It also broke under extreme stress, which came in handy once when a neighbor's dogs got loose and chased him while he was out in the adjacent field for some browse. He was able to break free and run into his house while we drove off the dogs. It makes me feel better to know my goat can break free if he gets into real trouble.


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## TDG-Farms

I like that collar  The leather vs vinyl had crossed my mind. Studs would be ok, almost bought a spiked one then the light bulb turned on and I rejected that idiotic idea. The fat collar I have was just the best I found so far though I think on a full grown goat would look very cool. I havent tried ALL the feed stores or pet smarts looking for collars but working on it. Not to worried about chaffing as it will just be his pack collar. Its to big to have him wear around the farm. For that ill get him something that is easy to grab. Might just go custom with it. The lead I have has brass colored hardware and I cant stand that. Home Depot sells the same clasp and clamp for a few bucks in chrome, so will be changing those out as well. As I only have one packer (so far) I can spend the extra money to bedazzle his stuff  hehe

On a side note, I know that sometimes my posts can be a bit tough to read through. Am sorry but with the 7 hours of chores I do here on the farm, I also work 10 hour days doing HVAC install. I just dont have the energy to compose completely literate sentences. I mention this cause I went back and read my post... phew, it stinks hehe


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## Nanno

Yeah, spiked collars are a bit iffy for general use. Cuzco has a black one that he wears on special occasions (Halloween, goth party, Denver Hearse Convention, Harley night at the bar). But I can't grab it, so he wears a classy silver chain under it, which is not only practical but also fits nicely with the whole "tough goat" theme. And when Cuzco's in public I also have him in a black leather halter since it's much easier to control a 200+ lb. goat with a halter than with a collar (especially a spiked one!). 

I might have to get Cuzco some magnetic ear spikes if we attend this year's HearseCon because it's important at any social event to dress the part so as to impress the "in" crowd. The title of this thread is "Alpine with an Attitude", but I think my Nupine could give any goat a run for his money in the attitude department!


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## Bob Jones

You'll make a teenager out him yet. ;-)


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## Nanno

I hope he'll be a teenager one day! He's 10 right now, so he's got a few years to go.


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## gina

Really glad to read all this after the fact, ha. 
Aspen is a 6 month old Alpine buck, he had started to do so this aggression off and on now, but tonight we had our major lay out, when he got up he just leaned against me with his head in my lap for the longert time. Will see how he is tomorrow, I had been using the squirt bottle as well as the knee in the side, but tonight he tried to use his horns to push me aside and that is when I flipped him. I don't think he was down for 10 minutes, but it seemed like forever.
Hope this worked but will be ready in the morning and after reading all this I don't feel bad in having to do this. 
By the way what kind of shock collars would you suggest, just incase he does not get it with the flipping? I would rather do the collar instead of the spray, as around here the wind is so bad and from every direction, be my luck to spray it at him and I get the spray myself. Aspen would really think he was boss then.


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## TOU

gina said:


> ...as around here the wind is so bad and from every direction, be my luck to spray it at him and I get the spray myself. Aspen would really think he was boss then.


Thx for the chuckle.  Good luck!

TOU


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## gina

Thanks. Ha
I can tell so far the laying him down did some good, he really responds much better to my voice correction. 
He wants to play with some one, I have him separate from the doe as I don't want her bred. So he goes nuts when I get out there, jumping running spinning, all which is fine, but he started up on his hind legs and coming down at me. Since I laid him down he goes up but does not look my direction then jumps and plays.
I still pack the spray bottle and use it when he does get testy at feeding he is doing much better at getting back and waiting. 
He likes to chase the old broom, so I play with him that way, he goes up and tries to catch it, then runs around trying to get it till he gets tired of that game.
I would like to hear any other suggestions of how to get him to play safely around and with me so he can burn off this engery


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## gina

Ok now what? This afternoon I was out back with Aspen, and he was getting into everything, so I would say no, he would stop, then get into something else etc. He would respond to the no and stop that behavior just to do something wrong again. Well, he got frustrated I guess with all the no's and he pushed my arm away with his horns. I used the big No and he jumped back hackles up going away from me, I said no to the hackles and he went up ears back and aimed at me. Well on the ground he went, he laid there took some bites of grass and went to sleep, nothing I did while he was laying there made him want to get up.
When I got up he stayed down, I stood over him for sometime then got him up. He wanted to run off, I took him by his collar and walked him up to the deck, he would stand there if I held him but he wanted to leave.

So he took off from the deck and made a twist and landed on his horn and broke it off.
I finally got him to stand so I could get him, had to pin him down again to get blood stopper on, the horn is a scur so it left the short blood stub.

Now he thinks I broke his horn off and I can hardly get to him at all. 

He was not bottle raised so took me some time to get him to trust now with all this correction and now his horn broke off he does not know if he should stand, run, threaten, or what.

I was not planning to have him fixed till he was almost a year old to prevent the stone problem that took my, super
Gentle calm goat this summer.

Wondering if having Aspen fixed when he is 7 months old which is this November would take this dominant behavior away.
So whats some suggestions, with his behavior, frustration with being told no etc, any thoughts about the horn, and to still wait on getting him fixed or do it at 7 mo. If it will mellow him more.
Sad thing is Aspen is a registered Alpine buck, if he would not be a packgoat, he would be a great sire, for someone who wanted a beautiful buck. I get him fixed well that it for any other future if he does not settle in.
Never had a buck before this behavior is all new to me.



T


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## TDG-Farms

Yes, the castration will take a good bit of that away. Though is also in that stage of a goats life where being "bad" just is how they are. After a year or sometimes two, they calm down even more. But you are doing everything right it sounds like. And although the situation isnt ideal, he will come around. If you teach him the sound of grain in a lip pan and when you are feeding him grain, he will quickly forget anything but the grain when you shake the pan with grain in it. I have had animals that will not let you touch them at all, but if you walk in and shake the pan and they hear that sound after being shown and fed a few times, they will totally forget they dont want you touching them and come running. The thing about this is, you need to keep touching and petting them after the grain is gone or they will only love you for the grain 

Castration after 5 months should be as about a good as its going to get. If you are concerned, get ammonium chloride for his loose mineral mix and maybe some extra for a monthly treatment.


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## Nanno

Dave is right! Get him neutered now! There's no reason to wait till he's older. UC is not a hard and fast science, and even totally intact bucks are prone to it, so waiting longer is no guarantee or even necessarily a benefit. There's evidence that UC is as much a genetic predisposition as anything, so don't let the fear of UC destroy a good relationship. 

I recently invested in a shock collar for Cuzco. I've been pretty pleased with the results. Someone around here recently suggested an air horn, and I really like that idea as well. However, in this case it might be detrimental since your goat is currently shy of you and you don't want to do anything to make him more afraid. 

Sometimes when Cuzco is being ornery, I'll just get him into a firm but gentle headlock and start talking to him and petting him until the hackles go down. Then I baby him for a while. Aspen might need a little of that since he's scared of you at the moment. That's another reason to get him neutered ASAP. You want to be able to hug your goat and still be able to go to the grocery store afterwards! 

One more thing that might help is that if you're finding that Aspen is getting into things one after the other, you could tie him up out of reach where he can watch but not be in the way. You don't want to become the old fuddy-duddy that doesn't allow anything. That may be why he got frustrated with you--he was curious and trying to explore and you weren't letting him do anything fun! (You old meanie!) No one likes to be nagged, so if you're finding that you're having to constantly reprimand your goat for getting into stuff, you'd both be better off if you put him where he can't be tempted in the first place. For training, if you start out by giving him only one thing at a time that he's not allowed to get into, but give him several other things he can play with, he'll learn that there are boundaries without getting frustrated by an endless list of "no's". As he learns and matures, you can increase the number of off-limits items at a time without making him mad. He'll also become less curious as he gets older and learns that some things just aren't as interesting as he thought they were. Youngsters are convinced they have to get into everything, and we either have to learn put up with a certain amount of mayhem during our projects or else move the goats where they can't interfere.


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## gina

THANK YOU!!!!
I will be talking to the vet to make his appointment. 

He came around later this afternoon, he was way mellow today since his head hurt from breaking his horn off.
So I decided to take him out, we have alway did fine away from here. He loaded just great and out we went, figured it would be good as he knew he could not have anyone to save him but me, he would either follow or be alone.
He was his old self, letting me pet him, followed just great, spent 2 hrs out and by the time we were back at the truck he was even more relaxed.
Back in is turf he was ok, hackles went up once don't know why I was not near him but then went down without me doing anything. After feeding and he was laying down I went into his pen and just sat beside him, when he reached over and touched my hand I petted under his chin then rested my hand on his withers rubbing them gently, he was totally relaxed, when I got up to leave he just stayed. 

I will be getting some photos of his right hind foot so I can post them, I have noticed he is walking on the outside hoof, that pad is thick and nice while the inside pad is not much at all . When I trimmed him last I took down the ouside pad more thinking he would balance the other one but it has not done it. The inside hoof is just getting long and run over the pad is still very shallow. He tends to roll to the outside when he stands.

Anyway thanks again for all the tips, I will be putting them into practice. 

By the way what kind of shock collar is good, can you keep them on even if it is bad weather?


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## idahonancy

The shock collars are very weather proof as they are made for hunting dogs that tend to end up doing their job in bad weather. We've use "Sport Dog" for years. It comes from Lion Counrty Supply. It is rechargeable. After our dog attacked 5 porcupines in one year the shock collar stopped the behavior. We threatened to put it on our alpha goat when he was a teenager but he seem to grow out of the aggressive behavior before we got around to trying it. Probably because the other goats all ended up much bigger than him. For a while he held his position with raw attitude which he would occasionally miss place to humans. He how ever hated to be flipped. So flipping and and a fog horn attack stopped him from rearing.


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## gina

Thanks, will keep this info handy. 
Looks like the opening at the vets is November 6th so if all goes right his attitude adjustment will start then. 
One of our ladies in the dairy goat club will be doing the scur removal. She is 78 and has removed those and full grown horns on full grown bucks and does and they never return. It is nothing I had read about or heard of, neither had the vet so we will all be learning as we watch her do it. She does not go down into the sinus like I have seen and there is no bandages needed.
I will keep you all informed after the 6th. So Aspen is going to be worked over on both ends while he is out, going to be waking up to being a new goat from top to bottom. See how his attitude will be after this. Ha


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## Nanno

I got a SportDog SD-350 from gundogsupply.com. It's got eight levels of stimulation, so you can find what level best suits your goat. Cuzco responded at about level 4 until he grew in a lot of winter hair, at which point I started noticing inconsistent or non-existent responses, even when I cranked up the shock level. But the collar came with a set of longer prongs which I will probably install next time I use it. But you may not need one for Aspen. It could be that the castration and disbudding will do wonders for his attitude. Time will tell. Good luck!


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## gina

Well we are scheduled, for Aspens attitude adjustment for Nov. 6th for sure now.
I have noticed he is much better since I took him out, still wants to test the waters but a good no backs him off real good. I do hope getting him fixed will settle him, my doe does not help matters when she comes right up to the fence, and bats her eyes. 
Thanks for all the suggestions will keep ypu informed.


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