# Sudden temporary bouts of very serious aggression



## lenallen (Mar 25, 2009)

After four good years, a wether has turned suddenly frightening for short periods.

My wife and I have hiked our four 4-year old wethers in the forest nearly a thousand times without indident. We spend quality time with them nearly every day. Our lead goat, Custer, has always been the one we had to watch just a bit closer around guests and adolescents. But never considered anything other than rare mischievious misjudgements on his part, in how to behave.

About a month ago (mid November) he first attacked my wife while on trail. (Kicking, then biting.) She was frightened, turned back toward home, and he went back to a mild sweetie after 20 minutes, while still on-trail. When wife repelled him, he diverted his aggression upon our lowest-hierarchy goat. Wife has never been as firm and consistent as I like in maintaining discipline. But it was never a big issue. Even today Custer is still a sweetie with wife nearly all the time. He repeated again on-trail yesterday, but she was able to pick up a large stick and repel him with strong whacks to the head. I hadn't seen it first hand.

But this morning while posing for holiday family photo I watched him go suddenly from standing peacefully next to my wife, to very mean behavior. I honestly thought a demon had suddenly hijacked his brain. Just as she had described from before, his face and jaw suddenly contorted, and he kicked -hard- at her with his hoofs for about 3 seconds, then his mouth contorted even more with lower jaw displaced far sideways, his tongue sticking way out, his eyes demon-like. His penis extended, bright red at the outer 2". The red portion seemed smaller diameter (kinda pointed?). In the past I have seen the four goats occasionally hump their back while standing alone, and extend penis for a few seconds. But their erect penis in those routine episodes seemed more flesh color and blunt on the end. In the episode this morning, wife squirted his face with vinegar water (being prepared, just in case). I grabbed him and made it clear I was in charge and he was in trouble. After 45 seconds it was over. I chained him to a fence a few feet away, and he stood peaceful for another 30 minutes while we took more photo's. He showed zero interest in breaking the leash to approach my wife or other goats.

I know this goat extremely well. He has never had anything like manic behavior before. We did have to have another wether "re-wethered" surgically (to finish the job). But Custer has never exhibited behavior that lead us to suspect there was still a testical up inside. My wife speculates he is being overtaken with runaway hormones. Having seen it, so sudden, I suspected some form of neurotic brain problem.

Please share any ideas you have. I just don't think it's a sudden failure of training. Or is it? If we don't fix this, we need to either never let him hike with my wife or get rid of him (and he is our favorite).

Thank you.
-Lee Alley 
Rapid City, SD


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## Cazz (Jun 9, 2010)

Hi Lee,
It sounds to me like a mixture of rebellious dominant behaviour (he suddenly decides he doesn't want to be told what to do and decides he will be the boss) and buck-ish behaviour. Although our bucks and rams would never dare to show such behaviour to us (they get enough punishment for showing that behaviour for the wrong reason, such as thinking a wether is in heat) that is exactly what a dominant buck will do without training. Before training, bucks we didn't raise from birth would do the same. Everything you have described is EXACTLY what a buck does before mounting a doe - the kicking to check if she is in heat (she will run away if she is not or wag her tail to encourage him if she is), wild eyes, tongue sticking out, face contorting and extending is all what they do when they either have, or think they have, an in-heat doe. The times when they hump in the paddock is trying to spray themselves - we never allow our wethers to do that (or bucks either for that matter) because the more they try, the more they can do. (right up to spraying themselves and sticking that bit in their mouths - disgusting I know, which is why we don't allow that behaviour at all) A wether is normally only pale pink, whereas the colour and shape you have described I have only (and always) seen in bucks, which may mean your wether isn't fully a wether or else was well past sexual maturity before being wethered and has been practicing spraying and mounting quite a lot recently.

So, what to do? Punish him firmly whever he shows that behaviour, act like a big mean dominant buck getting furious at a lower-ranking buck if you have to, and he will learn that there is no chance of him getting away with buck-ish behaviour. Without training, a buck will get that same mad look in their eyes and absolutely will not respond to you, no matter what you do, I call it 'hypo' and they act like they are posessed and have no sense or brain. The tongue sticking out and jaw out of line just adds to the mad appearance, and can only be knocked out of them by shaking them back to their senses. If you give a buck a smack on the nose whenever he starts to go hypo from the time he is a kid, he will never have the slightest problem. But, as you have experienced, without the problem being noticed and firmly dealt with when young, it can crop up unexpectedly and (in my experience) normally with someone they know who is not acting dominant towards them.
You could call it runaway hormones, because it is a rush of sexual hormones normally asocciated with bucks with in-heat does, but a buck who isn't in with does will often get carried away by his hormones in rutting season and, without pulling him back to his senses with a sharp smack on the nose and threatening him until the glazed look disappears, can turn into a maniac and often think another buck, a doe who is not in heat or a wether, is an in-heat doe and start going hypo over them.
So, as I mentioned before, you have to get really serious with them about this - no 'nice guy' telling your goat it 'just isn't a nice thing to do', it's got to be a threatening boss, pulling up their goat with strong punishment for a major and unacceptable breach of behaviour. This is just as serious as threatening you by rearing up or butting you - although this may sound overboard or ridiculous, Custer is saying you are, in effect, his property to do with as he pleases. However, despite bing serious, this is a problem which is quite easily dealt with if you are willing to teach him a good hard lesson for mucking up in the slightest over this rule. You need to make a boundary (no spraying, dominant behaviour to anyone or thing, no buck-ish behaviour, no even trying to spray, mount the others or paw anything, no glazed eyes or unresponsive behaviour) and when you have decided on it, stick to it. The boundary I have mentioned might seem over the top, but he has gone right over the edge and you need to push him right back. Punishing a goat for bossing the others might seem cruel or unnecessary, but I have found it is one of the best cures for bad behaviour, gives them way more respect than most other things, and DOES NOT make them hate you. Also, the further you push him, the more he will learn to submit and the gentler and better behaved he will be with you as well as the learning to control himself or else.
Feel free to pick apart anything I have said, ask or tell me you don't think it is right and I can give you many examples from my own experience with my goats and others goats. I can also provide some photos of the differences of a buck hypo (if I took some photos - might have some with a tongue sticking out at least) and a buck calm and well behaved, EVEN when breeding the does. Sorry if I sound like I am yelling at you, just trying to get the point across that even bucks, who many people say to give lots of respect and be wary of, can be gentle, lovely and loving boys, who can control themselves around does and behave around little children and other goats. 
All the best with all of your goats and Custer in particular - looking forward to hearing how you go.  
Cheers,
Cazz


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## Cazz (Jun 9, 2010)

lenallen said:


> About a month ago (mid November) he first attacked my wife while on trail. (Kicking, then biting.) She was frightened, turned back toward home, and he went back to a mild sweetie after 20 minutes, while still on-trail. When wife repelled him, he diverted his aggression upon our lowest-hierarchy goat. Wife has never been as firm and consistent as I like in maintaining discipline. But it was never a big issue. Even today Custer is still a sweetie with wife nearly all the time. He repeated again on-trail yesterday, but she was able to pick up a large stick and repel him with strong whacks to the head. I hadn't seen it first hand.


About this, when a buck (or buck-ish wether) has their buck-ish behaviour diverted, unless their behaviour is jumped on and punished, they will go and try on someone/thing else. When two bucks have a doe in heat for example, the boss one will chase the other buck away and he will immediatly go and start mounting/pawing the closest goat he can reach - whether or not it is even a doe. If there are several goats nearby, he will go for the lowest ranking one. It will normally run away, and if his behaviour was uncalled for (no in-heat doe after all) he will calm down in 10-30min and forget about it, unless the other goat he has started harassing resents his treatment and starts to fight him, after which they will continue the fighting as normal after buck-ish fighting (mounting, slobbering and pawing each other) for 10-20 min, unless either has won and chased and harassed the other for a while.
The biting is what they do around the does' rump - partly to check that she is in heat and therefore doesn't run away, and partly just playing around with her and enjoying themselves. The does' don't appreciate it even if they are in heat, and will move away or wag their tails and try to distract him, whereupon he will normally start pawing, slobbering and rubbing all over their face and shoulders. When they have an in-heat doe, after the first few preliminary paws to check if she is in heat, they will normally make a sound as well, sometimes a grunting, sometimes a sobbing, 'blub blub' sound, or, if another buck is nearby, a wailing yell at him to warn him away. 
Cheers,
Cazz


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## Rift (Sep 6, 2009)

What is the punishment? Tipping, spraying, or?.. Very recently, our 3 yo wether has been rearing up at us from a distance. We tipped him the other day, but it would have to take 2 of us (I'm small and old, but kinda tough) We were both sore after the episode and then he reared up at me the next day and I could only yell at him. He is usually a sweetie (until this). I don't like this at all--now I don't take my eyes off of him when I'm around him. I need to be ready.


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## Rex (Nov 30, 2008)

If you aren't comfortable with tipping them over then get a small 3oz can of pepper spray and give them a shot in the face if they are being aggressive. I agree with Cazz that the kicking and tongue behavior are signs of an intact buck. I've never seen this behavior in a wether. The only confusing part is that you should have seen some bucky behavior way before now if he was still intact. How was he castrated? Is there a chance one could have been missed?

This isn't a reason to get rid of the goat. Just some issues to be resolved.


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## Cazz (Jun 9, 2010)

Hi Rift, 
The punishment we always use with buckish behaviour is from a light to hard smack on the nose. Unless you are using something that could seriously damage them, wacking them on any other part of the body won't work. I have also tipped them over before, and they just lay their with mad eyes until I let them up and then go straight back to whatever they were doing. Neither has spraying anything at them worked for us, although pepper spray may be different - we grab them by the collar and pull them up in their tracks, then give a good solid smack across the nose. They turn their face away and you cold hold them by the collar until they go submissive, or, since they should be submissive then, you can let them go. If they repeat it, grab again by the collar and two hard smacks. If they start running away and then threatening you, having them on a lead and then letting their collar go will test if they are actually submitting to you. Just add a smack for every return time - it might sound horrible, but the goat will decide sooner or later that the punishment is too much to risk repeating the behaviour. Some goats will give in first time, others may take three or four times (three or four smacks respectively) before they will finally say 'enough' and stop rebelling.
With rearing up, advance very quickly to them (their power is in their charge, so if you are on top of them by the time they come down, they are intimidated and can't charge) and wack on the nose. He will probably retreat a few steps and try again - follow quickly again and another wack on the nose. This is how a goat fights another, but a wack on the nose is more than they bargain for, as, especially with horns, they normally only get hit on the top of their head and it doesn't hurt at all. Very soon he will be hurrying away, and if he turns and threatens again from a distance, put a very threatening expression on your face (you may have seen a boss goat doing this) and go towards him slowly. That in itself should be enough to scare him off and if not, repeat performance above until he runs in fright when you threaten him. This won't make him afraid of you the rest of the time - if he comes up to you submissively, make sure not to smack him and, if he looks repentant enough, give him a treat. Goats do understand that you can be friends when you are the boss, but when fighting they need to lose and lose unescapeably, otherwise their pride is unaltered and they will threaten soon. If smacking on the nose hurts you hand, you can use something like a fly swat or switch that will give a sharp sting. A fly swat is better in many ways because you won't have to worry about hitting his eyes - through all of this, the object is NOT to hurt the goat, but to make him know who is the boss and give him respect. I have had one of my wethers threaten me, mainly out of fun as the whole herd of goats and I were going along and he was threatening all of them and then me in turn. I advaced quickly, took him by the collar and gave him one sharp smack on the nose and some stern words. He immediatly turned his face from me and nearly slunk along, then when I walked past him a later later, he came up all repentant asking for a pat and some encouragement.
Cheers,
Cazz


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## lenallen (Mar 25, 2009)

Thank you for all for your very solid advice. I have talked this over with my wife and we both agree it looks pretty upbeat from here, following your suggestions. And, I'm thinking...If I go out to the barn tonight and read this thread to him, then heck, we may not even have to smack him.

(BTW: That's him in my avatar photo. He's also pretty full of himself.)


FOLLOW-UP EDIT: When he did it again, after these posts on PGF, I noticed what seemed to be a bit of semen (or similar) dripping from his pizzle. Appears my wife was correct, about the hormone hypothesis. Still, can't figure why it took 4 years for him to start this behavior. FWIW, between these episodes, which is most all the time, he seems to have become more cuddly than before. Hey, I wonder if there is such a thing as Goat Psychologist. Uhmmmm... I guess so. We're called packgoat owners.


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## MutantAtoms (Jan 20, 2012)

Glad I found this forum. My husband and I are just getting into the goats (3 on the way when weaned!) and even though my husband had them when he was a kid....they are totally new to me. I've been reading books, but they barely touch on behavior modification. I have a couple clarification questions though...



Cazz said:


> Although our bucks and rams would never dare to show such behaviour to us (they get enough punishment for showing that behaviour for the wrong reason, such as thinking a wether is in heat)


Do you mean that you dicipline ANY agressive behavior? even if it's establishing pecking order?



Cazz said:


> The times when they hump in the paddock is trying to spray themselves - we never allow our wethers to do that (or bucks either for that matter) because the more they try, the more they can do.


Do all wethers behave like bucks if allowed? I was under the impression that wethers behaved like does? Do you try to catch the wethers in the act and then how would you punish them? especially if they are doing it across the paddock?

Also, how do you start right with the babies? I plan to not let them climb on me/jump on me as I don't want this to happen when older, but what about the mouthing? I know they explore their world by chewing on everything...but where do you draw the line? Do you allow it? Any other no-no's that you can tell me? Pretend I'm visiting your place and we are about to walk in your goat pen to work...what would you tell me?


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

I personally do not allow any aggressive behavior when I am near the goats.
They are gotten after if they butt another goat, dog, cat, chicken.

Of course when I am not there I am sure it happens.

They are not allowed to put their feet on the fence.
They are not allowed to push you or put any pressure on you.
With their head or body. I walk with a staff (big stick) Helps
hold me up and helps guide the goats.

Does also have pecking orders. Well that is a start.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

for my personally, the approach from Cazz is a bit too extreme and, for me, not doable.

- not allowing ANY buckish behaviour means for me that I have to be around my goats 24/7 and punish even the slightest misdemeanor. My goats are out on brush clearing and I have a regular job so I often don't see them for hours. I also don't spend the night with them.

Next, I don't want them to be afraid of me for punishing them too often. I believe that this will cause a form of permanent stress that will be detrimental for them.

- wethers behaving like does: some do, some don't. I have several wethers that don't bat an eye or ear when the does are in heat and I have others that compete over the does. This in in no correlation to the age of wethering but I see a correlation to genetics and rank.

You can avoid much of this buckish behaviour by NOT introducing the key signals to the wethers, meaning does in heat. A group consisting of only wethers will be much more behaved and unproblematic than a mixed group of wethers and does. Buckish behaviour is not related/connected to testosterone, only. The basic behaviour is routed in the brain and that you can't erase, you can only avoid the triggers.

Training/education/lambs: I don't allow mouthing and I don't allow climbing on me. But I start with moderate reprimands, like pushing the lamb away and reserve stricter forms for the time when/if the moderate level fails. That said, I won't spend months on a "moderate" level when the goat/lamb in question is clearly persistent and won't take the hint. And THAT said, I will look at the age of the goat, if it's already capable of understanding WHY it's being pushed down/away. If you look at the mother and the leading wether/buck, they tolerate a certain level of misbehaviour in the very young and become stricter as the lamb gets older.

It also depends on character: some need repeated reprimands, some will accept the first reprimand and others will turn fearfull.

With my last bunch of lambs I had an interesting development over the now 2,5 years since their birth:

Their are two types of lambs in that group, all being handled the same:

- first type would be tame, affective, even a bit obnoxious in the first 7-9 months. Then they would turn "wild" for about one year, hard to catch, not wanting to be petted, etc. The wethers were castrated late (1,5 years) and would become tame and affectionate about 3 months after the castration. Although I reduced petting and coddling them as soon as they matured, I was around them twice daily and looking after them, taking them out for hikes, etc. They turned away from me, I believe, because of the hormonal changes and turned towards me because of the reduction of the testosterone levels.

- second type would be shy and unapproachable in their first year and then gradually becoming tame over the course of the second year. All needed a lot of attention from me: giving them treats, catching them, petting them, teaching them that I'm not dangerous. And almost from one day to the next they would turn tame and approachable, even obnoxious. If I would have punished the second type of lambs on a regular basis for misbehaviour in general and not only misbehaviour directed at me (and there was very little reason because they seldom approached me in a manner that would have needed correction/punishment) I would have "lost" all of them.

I have a mixed herd and during winter there's a lot of unrest in the herd when the does are in heat, much to my dismay. I keep thinking about how to solve this but I don't have the space to keep seperated groups during the winter/rutting season that are far enough away from each other to not affect the other group (smell). I would also have them undergo re-integration (stress) every year after the rutting season. This unrest has increased with the number of does and therefore times during a month in which a doe is in heat. Back when I still had only two does this was neglectable.


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## MutantAtoms (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks for your replies!

I will run into the same problem as sanhestar as for at least a few years I won't be able to keep wethers seperate from does or any other group for that matter. I appreciate the "heads up" though as I want to try to head off any problems before they get me into trouble. We plan to have a meat group but will have some show animals and I want a wether or two to try and learn packing and driving with. 

Another question just occured to me....I'm only familiar with horses/dogs. If not bred, do does go into season year round? With our horses, they will generally not go into season when the days are shorter in the winter...how is that with goats?


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

MutantAtoms said:


> Another question just occured to me....I'm only familiar with horses/dogs. If not bred, do does go into season year round? With our horses, they will generally not go into season when the days are shorter in the winter...how is that with goats?


depends on the breed. The most dairy breeds will come in rut seasonally between approx. October/November till April/Mai every 3 weeks.

Pigmy goats and boer come in rut aseasonally during the whole year, every 3 weeks.


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

Just so you know. I only have one that shows aggression to the other goats and dogs. He is almost 2.
My disapline for this behavior is on the walks. 
A firm NO and a block from the staff.
Not like I am beating him with a stick.

Most of the time now all I have to say is NO.
Or Down when he is standing on the fence.
If he does not get off the fence I pick up a stick.
Not even touching him he gets down. 
So he does know. He just likes to see if i am
going to do anything about it. LOL

I figure when he out grows the terrible 2's he will
stop testing me.


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## Cazz (Jun 9, 2010)

Hi everyone ... this is Georgia, Cazz's sister :mrgreen: Cazz has gone camping for a week, but I also deal with the goats (I'm totally in charge of them while Cazz is away) so I thought I might poke my head in here ...



MutantAtoms said:


> Do you mean that you dicipline ANY agressive behavior? even if it's establishing pecking order?


Depends ... we have just gotten a Toggy buck with enormous horns. We put him in with our other bucks and let 'em rip! They were just figuring out their pecking order. He tried mounting our sweet buck, Zhivargo. Vargo doesn't have horns, he knows he doesn't stand a chance against Quinn's massive weapons, so he just sort of hurried away. Quinn followed him a bit and we smacked him away. Why? There was no need for him to mount Vargo, he was boss and he knew it. He was just being a pumped up boy, aka bully. He started fighting our Boer buck, Carlos. Carlos has nice curly horns. They konked each other happily for a while, then Carlos got his horn hooked in Quinn's collar and started choking him. We seperated them. Then Quinn got Carlos's head between his V shaped horns. We seperated them. Obviously it wasn't safe to leave them together, so we took Quinn away and locked him up (in the back yard, sorry Mum.) We couldn't just punish them for that - that's pure pecking-order stuff, and to prevent it while you're there would just create the dangerous possibility of one killing the other while you're not there, ie. Carlos hooks Quinn's collar and chokes him to death.
But...
Cazz has a wicked little goat called Megs. She bosses the others, yes, pecking order, no, not neccessary. She's the boss, she knows it, they know it, she has no call to bite their udders and chase them round the yard. We punish that. That, Megsy, is not good behaviour. If there is any chance at all that one could damage the other, like seriously I mean, I think it is best to seperate them (as in, in different yards/pens/padocks). If they're just being bullies, but aren't going to injure the other, train them to be good goats. We've got a little goat called Dollybird. She is boss of all the big does. When she chases sweet old Midgee round, we smack her. Have some respect, Doll! Behaviour that we punish all the time, regardless of pecking-order-establishment, is biting and continuous mounting (chasing another goat round the yard and jumping on it.)
Like someone else said, it depends a lot on the goat's character and age, and also the circumstances.



MutantAtoms said:


> Do all wethers behave like bucks if allowed? I was under the impression that wethers behaved like does? Do you try to catch the wethers in the act and then how would you punish them? especially if they are doing it across the paddock?


We're generally too lazy to run across the paddock and smack 'em. If they are persistant in it, we might hide round the corner and purposely catch them in the act. Some wethers do behave like does, we had a Saanen wether who was like that. I think if you have wethers in with does (like we do) the dominant wether is most likely to act buckish. Seaspray was lower down the rank than Twinkle, so Twinkle took it upon himself to humour the does (or dishumour them as the case may be ...) It also depends a lot on when they were wethered, I think. We wether ours at a week old generally (with rings, by far the easiest way, especially at that age, often they hardly notice). If you wethered them later, I reckon they'd be more buckish. But some are just born 'bucks' some are just 'not does', you know. To punish them, we just smack their nose, or else the handiest part of them. With some of our bucks, who we bought as adults, we would carry water around with us and chuck it on the exposed certain-part-of-the-buck when they try to spray themselves. It was hilarious to watch, the looks on their faces at the cold water! Some people train roosters not to crow by hiding and shooting them with water pistols loaded with vinegar or just plain water when they crow. They think an invisible anti-crowing thing is getting them, and since they can never tell when the invisible anti-crower is or isn't there, they don't risk crowing.
Btw, Twinkle is a real sweetie too, it's rare that he will do anything to suggest he's anything but a calm wether. You can tell he's not a doe cause he's so tall and rangy and udder-less!



MutantAtoms said:


> Also, how do you start right with the babies? I plan to not let them climb on me/jump on me as I don't want this to happen when older, but what about the mouthing? I know they explore their world by chewing on everything...but where do you draw the line? Do you allow it? Any other no-no's that you can tell me? Pretend I'm visiting your place and we are about to walk in your goat pen to work...what would you tell me?


By mouthing I'm guessing you mean sucking on your fingers? We let them, I don't mind it at all. I don't consider that bad behaviour. It's not like it hurts anyone, and it keeps them close to you - I guess they think I'm a big dummy (in the US you might call it a pacifier? Not suggesting I'm an idiot sort of 'dummy'). We sit them on our laps, and play with them. We run around and get them to chase us, and chase them back, and generally behave like big kids. Of course you can't do that with wild ones, they have to grow up with you. But I see no problem with letting them suck your fingers. When they are weaned they stop it.We don't let them rear up on us. We teach them to rear freely, as in not supported by anything but their two back legs, and teach them to walk on their back legs etc. No-no's ... butting. Some kids will just pushhhhh you with their heads. We pushhhhh them away. Actual 'butting', like rearing up and trying to hit you with their heads, well we don't get that. They're our friends, lol! When they're older, if they do that, it's a serious crime. We'll be offended for a week - after smacking them good and leading them round and turning away to see if they'll do it again. Rubbing on us - we let them. It's sweet. They rub on each other, we rub on them, they rub on us. Although one old goat we got when she was 9, she loved to rub ... hard. She'd start at the head, then slowwwwly rub along you, smiling all the way. That's just social behaviour, I think. Sometimes it gets annoying, and we'll go, 'Hey, Ginger, stop it ... aww you little sweetie ... no, I don't want goat hair on me!' Ginger loves to rub, or just stand against you, preferably while you scratch the top of her head. 
So, you're coming into my goat yard ... most of the things I tell you will be customised for each goat. They really are very different. We're at the gate to the buck paddock. 'Vargo will come and stand beside you, just pat him (if you don't mind getting a bit smelly), he loves just being patted. Carlos will come up and beg for food, and mournfully maaa in our faces. Just don't let him walk up beside you from behind, cause his curly horns will hook you in the leg. Baltic the ram, just don't get between him and the open gate. He might bowl you over. Okay, I pour the food into the tray and they hoe in - grab Carlos's horn and drag him over this end, otherwise he'll bash Vargo out of his feed. Uh-uh, Carlos! Get back 'ere you scungy goat! (*smack*) If he tries to push you away, shove him.' (Carlos might try to push you out of his food too.) Haha, was just interruped in writing this by a phone call, some lovely guy wanted to buy Quinn and give him a good home! YAY! Anyway.

I hope that was all helpful, cause otherwise I've just spend a lot of time on a non-helpful post! Wow that is a lot of words.

Cheers, 
Georgia


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## MutantAtoms (Jan 20, 2012)

LOL Georgia...I can just imagine your herd and their personalities.  Sounds like fun. All replies are helpful and I know that everybody does things just a little bit differently. It is good to hear all different types of responses to behavior...gives me some idea of what to expect. 

Thanks!
Ellen


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