# 10 weeks failure to thrive?



## Christiestuff (Jul 20, 2020)

Hello all! Long time lurker, first time poster. I’m a novice goat owner (Nigerian Dwarves and Pygmies). We had our second round of babies this past spring and everyone was healthy and happy. One doe had triplets and I watched closely to make sure everyone got lots of colostrum and grew nicely. They are currently 10 weeks old. About a month ago, I noticed that one triplet was a little smaller than the others, so I started keeping her up with mama at night so she got all the milk. But over the next few weeks, she seemed to stop growing. She’s now half the size of her siblings. I feed medicated goat feed to all mamas and babies, but on our vet’s advice, I wormed her for tapeworms (never saw any evidence of them) and treated her with Corid (though she has no symptoms of coccidiosis). He said maybe she just prefers hay and forage and therefore isn’t drinking enough milk. Her tummy is very large compared to the other babies, but she plays and otherwise acts normal. This past weekend, we sold her biggest sibling so I kept mama and the remaining two up for a few days to watch them. It really seems like mama goat isn’t letting either of them nurse anymore. I finally started the little gal on a bottle, which she will take if I put it in her mouth and hold it there. She’ll take about 2 ounces at a time. I know she’s close to weaning but she weighs 6 pounds and she’s so little compared to everyone else. Is this failure to thrive? Should I keep forcing milk on her? She’s not interested in lots of goat pellets, and I’m adding calf manna just out of desperation. My vet is kind of sucky- he sees goats as livestock and takes an attitude of “it’s just a goat, do you really want to pay for an exam?” And yes, he’s my only option. Advice please! And please, be kind. I’m aware that I’ve messed up somehow!


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Have you had a fecal performed to rule out worms? That’s the first thing I would do. The bloated belly sounds like she could be wormy. Coccidiosis can also be asymptomatic until there’s too much damage.

You can have your vet run a fecal OR you can ship it to a lab such as MeadowMist (lot of experience), and they can do it for $5. 

Don’t feel bad! I’m sure all of us have had a kid who failed to thrive. It’s a part of raising livestock. We just need to rule out all possibilities.


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## Christiestuff (Jul 20, 2020)

CountyLineAcres said:


> Have you had a fecal performed to rule out worms? That's the first thing I would do. The bloated belly sounds like she could be wormy. Coccidiosis can also be asymptomatic until there's too much damage.
> 
> You can have your vet run a fecal OR you can ship it to a lab such as MeadowMist (lot of experience), and they can do it for $5.
> 
> Don't feel bad! I'm sure all of us have had a kid who failed to thrive. It's a part of raising livestock. We just need to rule out all possibilities.


We didn't; he just had me treat for coccidia and tapeworms. But I'll press for an actual fecal.


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## HungryFox (Feb 6, 2020)

Vet needs more knowledge, but I see you know that 
Indeed, get the fecal itself run!

How about potential mineral deficiencies herd wise? Yes, she could be the only one growth stunted from that while the others did fine.
Many herds have deficiencies, it is not to insinuate a failure on your part. They can be hard to balance correctly.

I also have a little midget goat.
No idea what is awry. Both her siblings as well as her dam are petite, but her growth is still NOT on par with those siblings/slower growing genes.
I need a weight update done this week on all kids, but last month (she was 4.5 months then) she weighed 13lbs. Perfectly proportional 13lbs, and always clean fecals!


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Another thing that can cause failure to thrive is congenital heart disease. Try to get your vet to exam her and run a fecal. Your piece of mind needs to know what it is NOT to manage her going forward. Hopefully he - or another vet - will do that for you.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Definitely have her checked for a heart murmur. Did you weigh her daily with a scale that weighs in pounds and ounces or pounds and tenths of pounds?


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## Christiestuff (Jul 20, 2020)

HungryFox said:


> Vet needs more knowledge, but I see you know that
> Indeed, get the fecal itself run!
> 
> How about potential mineral deficiencies herd wise? Yes, she could be the only one growth stunted from that while the others did fine.
> ...


I offer minerals but I'm adding a mineral drench to her bottles. Do you think that will help?


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## Christiestuff (Jul 20, 2020)

goatblessings said:


> Another thing that can cause failure to thrive is congenital heart disease. Try to get your vet to exam her and run a fecal. Your piece of mind needs to know what it is NOT to manage her going forward. Hopefully he - or another vet - will do that for you.


He listened to her heart but said it sounded fine. He also did they eyelid check and said she didn't look anemic but they look pale to me.


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## Christiestuff (Jul 20, 2020)

ksalvagno said:


> Definitely have her checked for a heart murmur. Did you weigh her daily with a scale that weighs in pounds and ounces or pounds and tenths of pounds?


Vet said no murmur and that heart sounded fine, and we weigh daily now with a food scale lol. She's been steady at 6 for three days.


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## HungryFox (Feb 6, 2020)

A mineral drench?
I would not. Could already be overdosing on some minerals.

Kids are usually paler FAMACHA.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Have your vet run a fecal. Anemia is one, but not 100% in showing problems with cocci and or wormload.


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## Christiestuff (Jul 20, 2020)

Okay all! First of all, thank you for the replies. The vet did a fecal today and just called with the results. He said it was negative for Coccidia and tapeworms but that there was evidence of barber pole worms BUT he didn’t recommend treating for them because she wasn’t anemic or lethargic. Like, all goats have them to some extent but they weren’t an issue?!? He said she’s just small. I’m going to keep giving her bottles because I still feel like this is a malnutrition thing because her top line feels bony and her big belly makes me feel like she’s stuffing herself because she’s starving. SO... should I figure out a treatment for barber pole worms on my own? Or should I drive her two hours to Auburn’s vet school and get their opinion?


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

If he won’t give you a specific EPG, then I wouldn’t take his advice. All goats have worms to some extent, but she is young and is clearly struggling.

I would treat her anyways. You know she has them, and I have no doubt that’s probably a huge factor in her being bony, small, and having a big belly.

Good on you for getting a fecal!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, treat, barber pole worms at any number IMO is not a good thing.
Especially in a goat which is indeed struggling, as mentioned above.


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## Christiestuff (Jul 20, 2020)

Should I just use Safe-guard as treatment? Or do you guys recommend something else? I can order online but locally there’s a Tractor Supply.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> I agree, treat, barber pole worms at any number IMO is not a good thing.
> Especially in a goat which is indeed struggling, as mentioned above.


I disagree barberpole at low levels along with some immune support herbally is fine.

However, with this goat I want to know the exact EPG because I don't trust vets in the least!!

Start the goat on garlic, 1 clove daily, raw.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I disagree barberpole at low levels along with some immune support herbally is fine.
> 
> However, with this goat I want to know the exact EPG because I don't trust vets in the least!!
> 
> Start the goat on garlic, 1 clove daily, raw.


Barberpole worms are unforgiving and can take down a goat quickly. 
I caution anyone who tries to tell others there is no harm there and herbs will take care of the low numbers. It can go south quickly. 
As herbs can work to slow, causing the goat, which is already down, to explode with those worms.

Any stress, can cause these worms to explode as well. So I have to respectfully disagree with you as well.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> Barberpole worms are unforgiving and can take down a goat quickly.
> I caution anyone who tries to tell others there is no harm there and herbs will take care of the low numbers. It can go south quickly.
> As herbs can work to slow, causing the goat, which is already down, to explode with those worms.
> 
> Any stress, can cause these worms to explode as well. So I have to respectfully disagree with you as well.


It is highly unusual to see 0 barberpole worms on a sample, healthy goats can absolutely have low EPGs of it as long as FAMACHA and body condition is monitored.

If we treat when we see 1 barberpole egg, goats will never build up any immunity.

For more info you can see University of Rhode Island's in-depth videos on parasite management.

"As herbs can work to slow, causing the goat, which is already down, to explode with those worms. "

I think my point may have been confused here - if there is a goat that is down and/or suffering from the burden of barberpole worms, small numbers or not, of course immediate deworming should happen!!

My recommendation for herb use would be when EPGs are in a safe level, because often a few eggs are found in fecal samples, and the goat is healthy, to prevent things from getting out of hand by building immunity.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I have to remind, this thread is about a goat with issues and not thriving, which has a compromised the immune system already. 

So my humble opinion for this goat is, to treat this goat the quick way. 

Also give copper bolus to help fight off worms. 

I do not want to argue the point, so I am done trying to explain.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> I have to remind, this thread is about a goat with issues and not thriving, which has a compromised the immune system already.
> 
> So my humble opinion for this goat is, to treat this goat the quick way.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I have absolutely hijacked this thread ! My initial comment had nothing to do with the goat in question - for that, my mistake!!

I agree wholeheartedly with the recommendations for treatment in this thread for this goat!

All good!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

(highfive)


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## Christiestuff (Jul 20, 2020)

This is the latest reply ever but in case anyone stumbles on this... the goat is still TINY. Two vets including Auburn’s vet school clinic couldn’t find anything wrong with her including various worms. She’s perfectly healthy, just super small. Like, smaller than the world record one.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Is she thriving and doing well despite being tiny?


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## Christiestuff (Jul 20, 2020)

ksalvagno said:


> Is she thriving and doing well despite being tiny?


Yep. She runs around and seems perfectly happy. I'm mostly concerned that she'll go into heat and a buck will somehow get to her (though I'm pretty careful and have good fencing). There's no way she could carry kids.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Sometimes when a breeders genetic line is worn out you will see these tiny goats. It happened to me a couple years ago making my decision to replace my old buck.
The gal I bought my toggenburg goats from had the same problem. She is doing AI to bring back size and strength. In fact, the sire of my yearling doe died in 2014.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Wow, that is too bad.
Thanks for the update.

We would love to see pics.


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## Breloh1 (8 mo ago)

Christiestuff said:


> Hello all! Long time lurker, first time poster. I’m a novice goat owner (Nigerian Dwarves and Pygmies). We had our second round of babies this past spring and everyone was healthy and happy. One doe had triplets and I watched closely to make sure everyone got lots of colostrum and grew nicely. They are currently 10 weeks old. About a month ago, I noticed that one triplet was a little smaller than the others, so I started keeping her up with mama at night so she got all the milk. But over the next few weeks, she seemed to stop growing. She’s now half the size of her siblings. I feed medicated goat feed to all mamas and babies, but on our vet’s advice, I wormed her for tapeworms (never saw any evidence of them) and treated her with Corid (though she has no symptoms of coccidiosis). He said maybe she just prefers hay and forage and therefore isn’t drinking enough milk. Her tummy is very large compared to the other babies, but she plays and otherwise acts normal. This past weekend, we sold her biggest sibling so I kept mama and the remaining two up for a few days to watch them. It really seems like mama goat isn’t letting either of them nurse anymore. I finally started the little gal on a bottle, which she will take if I put it in her mouth and hold it there. She’ll take about 2 ounces at a time. I know she’s close to weaning but she weighs 6 pounds and she’s so little compared to everyone else. Is this failure to thrive? Should I keep forcing milk on her? She’s not interested in lots of goat pellets, and I’m adding calf manna just out of desperation. My vet is kind of sucky- he sees goats as livestock and takes an attitude of “it’s just a goat, do you really want to pay for an exam?” And yes, he’s my only option. Advice please! And please, be kind. I’m aware that I’ve messed up somehow!


Curious to see how your little girl has progressed. I'm having the same scenario. I had twin Nubians born 3 weeks ago. Mom rejected her and she has been bottle fed since day 1. She is 1/3 the size of her brother. Will only take 3-4 oz of milk at a time and sometimes fights me to take that. She doesn't run or play but will just stand and cry if the others go out to the pasture.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Breloh1 said:


> Curious to see how your little girl has progressed. I'm having the same scenario. I had twin Nubians born 3 weeks ago. Mom rejected her and she has been bottle fed since day 1. She is 1/3 the size of her brother. Will only take 3-4 oz of milk at a time and sometimes fights me to take that. She doesn't run or play but will just stand and cry if the others go out to the pasture.


It would be best to start your own thread. There are so many questions that would need to be answered to help you.


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