# Would these does pair well with my buck???



## clementegal

Hello I have begun my search for the perfect doe to match with my buck that I will be getting. My bucks faults are he is a little short bodied and his rump is slightly steep. So I found some people with does I will be adding pictures of does after this but here are my first two they have nice level long backs and beautiful rumps I think... I also posted some pictures of my buck so you get the visual.


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## ksalvagno

Pretty girls! A little hard to tell conformation on the first one.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

Should pair well, won't help the steep rumps much, but he has nice legs, stature, width all around, and nice depth and capacity. Should make some nice kids.


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## clementegal

I hope so the lady is selling him for cheap because she needs hay money and doesn't want him to do nothing all winter.


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## clementegal

Would either of these three be a better fit than the other two? Sorry couldn't get two pics to load ill try tomorrow.


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## clementegal

Here's the other two goats.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I would say, the last doe of the 3 you just posted, would pair the best with him. She has the most level rump of all the does, and the straightest topline.


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## clementegal

I called the lady and she said the same thing. I think ill be getting another doe pretty soon


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## TDG-Farms

2 mistakes here. 1, pictures do not make a breeding. Pedigrees do. 2. Forget about what the parents look like. You are much more likely to end up with kids that look like their grand parents.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

I think the pedigree can be what ever the heck it can be, but two correct goats will most likely make correct kids.

I've have my fair share of goats with fancy paper's and they themselves not turn out to be much to look at.
Like when you breed to well bred goats together and end up, eh oh well.

Also found the longer the pedigree the dumber the animal, inbreeding being the culprit.


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## Texaslass

I don't know anything!  But I love your goats (or her goats, can't tell which is which, lol) they are all adorable!


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## clementegal

Byccombe said:


> I don't know anything!  But I love your goats (or her goats, can't tell which is which, lol) they are all adorable!


Thanks I'm for sure getting the buck but still have to decide on the perfect doe!


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## clementegal

TDG-Farms said:


> 2 mistakes here. 1, pictures do not make a breeding. Pedigrees do. 2. Forget about what the parents look like. You are much more likely to end up with kids that look like their grand parents.


Thanks I have only looked at does with good bloodlines where the parents and grands and greats all have good conformation utters and specifically large teats.


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## clementegal

I just want to find a doe that corrects my new bucks faults they appear to be he is a tad short bodied with a little o a steep rump. But I also just found out that this specific line takes about three years to mature. So basically I just am looking for a long doe with a nice rump good utters in the background is a plus tho. Speaking of here are some more pictures of the first doe she has better conformation and utters in her genetics than the buckskin.


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## clementegal

Sorry pics didn't work...


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## clementegal

Here is a better picture of onyx you can see his rump is actually pretty nice


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## KW Farms

TDG-Farms said:


> 2 mistakes here. 1, pictures do not make a breeding. Pedigrees do. 2. Forget about what the parents look like. You are much more likely to end up with kids that look like their grand parents.


I strongly disagree. Sire and dam conformation are much more important than the pedigree. Pedigrees can look perfect on paper, but sometimes the goats behind the pedigree just won't cross well. I always look at sire and dam first.


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## clementegal

KW Farms said:


> I strongly disagree. Sire and dam conformation are much more important than the pedigree. Pedigrees can look perfect on paper, but sometimes the goats behind the pedigree just won't cross well. I always look at sire and dam first.


So like the doe and buck should correct each others faults? Or they should both have good pedigrees? I'm confused!


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## KW Farms

Forget the pedigrees. Not every goat in the world has a fabulous pedigree....but they can still be a nice animal. I'd just put that aside and look at your bucks and does. Take the pedigree into consideration last. Yes, they should compliment each other. So say you have a doe with a steep rump and you'd like to help improve that...you want your buck to have a rump as close to breed standard as possible. Then rumps should have some improvement on those kids. 

You want each generation to be an improvement over the last...and that starts with matching the "right" buck with the "right" doe. :thumb: Pedigrees aren't as important as the goats themselves...in my opinion.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

If that is still confusing, say you have a doe with a level rump, you want to keep that, so you'd have to breed her witha buck that has a level rump.

Or say your doe has a steep rump, you want to correct that by breeding her to a buck with a level rump.

Or say you buck has a steep rump, you'd want to try and fix that by breeding a level rumped doe to him.

Look at the conformation of the animal first_ then_ look at the pedigree.

Just as an example: Here are 2 does and a buck with a nearly level rump. A level rump is what you want in any breed of goat.


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## clementegal

Ok so the buck has a steep rump but If I bred him to this doe it would be an improvement. Right? And thanks for explaining that to me! It makes sense now.


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## KW Farms

That doe looks to have quite a steep rump as well.

If you could get them shaved down and set up on level ground and get photos, we'd be able to see their conformation much more clearly. It's hard to tell much from some of the photos.


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## Texaslass

Where are you getting all these adorable Nigerians? too cute!


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## clementegal

Byccombe said:


> Where are you getting all these adorable Nigerians? too cute!


Haha thanks! Far from each other that's for sure!


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## Jessica84

Ok, I dont want to start WW3 here, but what was said about it not mattering what the parents look like, I have heard that from this one guy more then one time, I just ignored him and went on with life. But then a friend I talk to in SC took a class on something, I couldnt tell you what, but the first thing out of the teachers mouth was it didnt matter what the parents look like. Ill be honest, even after hearing that now from 3 people I still go with looks of parents, I know for sure what they look like and that the pictures have not been messed with, and just looking at papers I wouldnt know what to look for on goodness any how lol. 
And that first little doeling can be spayed and sent to my house so I can cuddle with it......so cute!!!


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## TDG-Farms

OMG HOW DARE YOU GO AGAINST WHAT I SAID ABOUT NOT LOOKING AT THE PARENTS!!!  hehe sorry I couldnt help it. That statement of not looking at the parents isnt totally true. What I should said was ALSO look at the grandparents as you will be getting many if not most of the traits from them. A crappy doe outta outstanding parents doesnt mean you are going to get a great kid outta the crappy animal. Even when you have all the planets aligned and the pedigrees researched and all the animals involved top notch, you can still get a crappy kid. It seems that very bad traits from way back in the pedigree can show up at just about anytime. If something doesnt work its ok cause you will have next year to try something different


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## Jessica84

^^^I did a real fast thinker lol, and I can see how that is true, for example, my buck I just sold, looking at him he was a ok buck, if I didnt need a buck fast at the time I would have by passed him. He always gave me very nice kids, and Ill admit my does are not drool worthy. I went back before I sold him and looked at pictures of all the names on his papers and I can see where my kids got their butt from, was not dad thats for sure. Also about ever 10th kid would come out a light red color even though both parents had dark heads. 3 of the bucks from his ped. had very very light colored heads. But seriously I hope this is 100% true since the buck I just purchased looks 'ok' to me but all the names I could find a pic of on his papers looked awsome!!!


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## clementegal

I see now.


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## ptgoats45

Looking at the OP's buck, his rump isn't that bad, going from hips to tail, where he really needs improvement is from thurl to thurl (one side to the other) the back bone sticks up above the pelvis instead of being more level. If you look at the pics that Lacie posted you can see how not only are they level from hips to tail, but side to side also. Your buck also has his hind legs up under him, so his rump may even be more level (from hips to tail) than it is showing in the pic when he standing more correct. His rump is a bit short also, but most of the Nigerians I have seen tend to have shorter rumps. When I had my goats linear appraised one year, it was at the end of August so my bucks were in rut, the appraiser commented on them both having "buck rumps". She said that bucks tend to be a bit steeper rumped when in rut than when they are not in rut. I have found this to be pretty true. I have also found that bucklings tend to have really nice rumps, then after they go into rut they get that "buck rump" and it doesn't always go back to how it was as a baby.

If you ask me, I would much rather have a buck who will improve my does' faults than a buck that needs to be bred to a good doe to improve his faults. To me a buck should be nearly flawless, as close to perfect as a goat can get, which can be very hard. I can admit I have used bucks that aren't as nice, but their parents were both very nice and the kids were an improvement. I have also seen bucks that weren't much to look at throw some awesome kids, what a buck looks like isn't necessarily an indicator of what type of kids he will produce. When I am looking at buying a new buck, the first thing I want to see is his dam and her udder. Is she a doe I want in my herd? Is her udder the type of udder I am wanting? If the answer is yes to both questions, then I want to see the sire's dam. If the sire's dam is a doe I would also want in my herd then I want to see any siblings of the buck I am looking at, either full sisters or half. I also want to see DHIR and LA records on any of the relatives. The more records the better I am able to asses if the buck is one I want to add to my herd. 

Your little guy looks like a pretty nice buck, especially one to start a new herd with. I think if you had him clipped and set up he would look a lot nicer than he does in the pics you have posted. Since he is a mature buck, does he have any daughters? If he does, are any of them in milk? Have you seen pics of his dam's udder, or any of his daugthter's udders? If you can get pics of any of his daughter's udders that would be great. A buck should throw does who all have similar udders, even from different dams you want a buck to more or less "throw himself", hence why we have Get of Sire classes at shows. The judge is looking for a group of does who are very similar in type and style, among other things. 

I hope that makes sense, these are all just my opinions. Every breeder has different ways of how they look for and research a new goat and what works for them to help them to improve their herd.


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## clementegal

ptgoats45 said:


> Looking at the OP's buck, his rump isn't that bad, going from hips to tail, where he really needs improvement is from thurl to thurl (one side to the other) the back bone sticks up above the pelvis instead of being more level. If you look at the pics that Lacie posted you can see how not only are they level from hips to tail, but side to side also. Your buck also has his hind legs up under him, so his rump may even be more level (from hips to tail) than it is showing in the pic when he standing more correct. His rump is a bit short also, but most of the Nigerians I have seen tend to have shorter rumps. When I had my goats linear appraised one year, it was at the end of August so my bucks were in rut, the appraiser commented on them both having "buck rumps". She said that bucks tend to be a bit steeper rumped when in rut than when they are not in rut. I have found this to be pretty true. I have also found that bucklings tend to have really nice rumps, then after they go into rut they get that "buck rump" and it doesn't always go back to how it was as a baby.
> 
> If you ask me, I would much rather have a buck who will improve my does' faults than a buck that needs to be bred to a good doe to improve his faults. To me a buck should be nearly flawless, as close to perfect as a goat can get, which can be very hard. I can admit I have used bucks that aren't as nice, but their parents were both very nice and the kids were an improvement. I have also seen bucks that weren't much to look at throw some awesome kids, what a buck looks like isn't necessarily an indicator of what type of kids he will produce. When I am looking at buying a new buck, the first thing I want to see is his dam and her udder. Is she a doe I want in my herd? Is her udder the type of udder I am wanting? If the answer is yes to both questions, then I want to see the sire's dam. If the sire's dam is a doe I would also want in my herd then I want to see any siblings of the buck I am looking at, either full sisters or half. I also want to see DHIR and LA records on any of the relatives. The more records the better I am able to asses if the buck is one I want to add to my herd.
> 
> Your little guy looks like a pretty nice buck, especially one to start a new herd with. I think if you had him clipped and set up he would look a lot nicer than he does in the pics you have posted. Since he is a mature buck, does he have any daughters? If he does, are any of them in milk? Have you seen pics of his dam's udder, or any of his daugthter's udders? If you can get pics of any of his daughter's udders that would be great. A buck should throw does who all have similar udders, even from different dams you want a buck to more or less "throw himself", hence why we have Get of Sire classes at shows. The judge is looking for a group of does who are very similar in type and style, among other things.
> 
> I hope that makes sense, these are all just my opinions. Every breeder has different ways of how they look for and research a new goat and what works for them to help them to improve their herd.


The lady said he was Very much in rut! :lol: Thanks for helping me out I'm doing the best I can with what I have available this will be my very first nigerian dwArf and I'm super excited I get him next week! I will be showing his kids in 4H and possibly some open shows I'm starting with descent goats and hopefully as I get more experienced get more money I can move to really nice goats! I do have pictures of his parents and his grandma and great grandma on his moms side I don't have pictures of his moms utter but her mom and grandma have fabulous utters! He doesn't have any siblings but he will have a full sibling this year the breeder is repeating the breeding! :awesome: he actually is only a yearling and the lady used him for mini Nubians she gave me pictures of the kids but idk if she kept any... Again thanks to everyone who is helping me i really appreciate it


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## TDG-Farms

Ah you have some fantastic times ahead of you!  Any breeding is a crap shoot and there is nothing better then when your hard work pays off with great new babies!  Good luck. I am sure they will be great.


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## clementegal

TDG-Farms said:


> Ah you have some fantastic times ahead of you!  Any breeding is a crap shoot and there is nothing better then when your hard work pays off with great new babies!  Good luck. I am sure they will be great.


Haha thanks crap shoots are ok with me! And so is hard work  I really hope I pic the right doe but if I don't right away then I have an excuse to buy more goats :hehe: and that's ok to!


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## clementegal

Lol I feel stupid! I just bought the best looking of the three does the one that is half white. She had the straitest back and the best rump well I just saw this doe....


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## kbluebkeman

So I have raised/showed horses at the National caliber level (regularly bred top tier mares to World Champion stallions) as well as English Mastiffs (one of my girls maternal grandfather is the winningest mastiff of all time and her dad was the top rated sire for 2008).....anyway, breeding animals of any type can be a crap shoot.......two talented athletes don't necessarily produce another athlete......two drop dead gorgeous parents (human or animal) don't always have a good looking child. 

What I do know is that you always get the best possible male (buck, stallion, dog) because you will never breed anything better than the weakest contributor.......if you have a really nice doe and breed her to an average buck, you are almost guaranteed to breed down her offspring......for example, in the horse world you can take an average mare and breed her to a world champion stallion and you are almost guaranteed to "raise up" her offspring.....but if you take a world champion mare and breed her to an average stallion, you will bring down her offspring.

Never breed a buck whose dam and sisters did not have perfect udders......because even if those sisters and that dam have perfect udders you don't necessarily get the same quality udder. But if you breed to a buck whose female family members had udder faults (tight orifices, small teats, teats outward, etc) you will almost certainly get udders with those characteristics. 

I also heard from a breeder friend whose mother's studies/work involves ruminents and I believe she said that only 29% of the genetic characteristics are inherited from the parents.....at least in ruminents. 

Anyway, you work with the best you can and hope to get offspring at least as good as the parents and hopefully better.......

Knowing pedigree lines helps when you know that a particular line/animal has a particular fault....let's say toe-out. If a grandparent on each side has a problem with toe-out then you are increasing your chances of toe-outs in your babies. Just like a positive trait doubles up your chances of getting that good trait. That is why people line-breed.....to double up on outstanding traits.....but if you don't know your lines well, you double up on the bad traits too.......

Always get the best buck you possibly can. You can never improve the buck, but you can "improve" the doe through her offspring.......


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## clementegal

Thanks that makes sense!


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## TDG-Farms

Very well posted Kblue.


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## mjs500doo

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I think the pedigree can be what ever the heck it can be, but two correct goats will most likely make correct kids.
> 
> I've have my fair share of goats with fancy paper's and they themselves not turn out to be much to look at.
> Like when you breed to well bred goats together and end up, eh oh well.
> 
> Also found the longer the pedigree the dumber the animal, inbreeding being the culprit.


Completely agree. You can have gorgeous flawless top of the line pedigree animals but still look like junk. Seen it dozens and hundreds of times in the cattle show ring.


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## mjs500doo

Also always do your homework on the lines you're looking into. I don't use a sire on my cows or heifers if I can't see the pedigree and other offspring of them. One bad apple isn't bad if he's got 900 excellent calves.

Not the best comparison, depends on what you know, but even for cattle I have bred my heifer Denise to Atwood for the best upgrade I think I can possibly get. My heifer is deep, long from nose to tail, great strong topline, extreme dairyness throughout, wide rump, great tail setting, exhibits great femininity, broad wide chest, excellent front feed and correct Pasterns. Her weaknesses are her rear leg angle from the side (slight), thurl placement (which is what makes her look the way she does), and a short rump.

What I want to do with my heifer is keep ALL her strengths and ADD to what she has, as well as try to "fix" her oopsies. She's got a great solid pedigree, but without a "popping" sire, some people don't appreciate all she has. She's a Master daughter out of a Mr Sam. Great proofs. Anyway...

I'll look for a bull that compliments:
Depth of rib
Power through the front end
Correct front legs
Angularity
Breed character
Strong hard top
Wide rump
Keeps udder proof score in the +2 area like her line

BUT also:
Strength through the rump
Length of rump
Correct thurl placement
Straightens rear legs slightly
Adds overall size.

Pics for comparison:









Look at the rump. Tremendous length, strength throughout, correct thurls, great feet and legs, overall dairy character, excellent depth of rib, supreme heart girth.









Denise is a VERY well put together heifer.

Overall, you want to accentuate the strengths, while maintaining and only improving them. You ideally want to correct any flaws without Losing any ground. Of course nothing is 100%, but like I said, one bad seed isn't anything. They still carry the potential genetics to become that mold you are searching for. Don't give up on just one generation. You never know where the diamond is hiding under the dust.


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