# Thoughts on Suki’s Rear? lol



## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

So Suki has just had her second set of kids. Pre-kidding she seemed like a pretty narrow girl. Wondering what people’s thoughts are on her rear end build now that she’s matured a bit? To me it seems she’s improved a bit as she’s matured. 










Her udder is still pretty small but I’m hoping it’ll get at least a tad bigger as she comes fully into milk. She kidded only four days ago. ☺


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## KY Goat Girl (12 mo ago)

She looks pretty wide to me. It may just be how far apart her legs are though.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

That’s true - I got a lucky shot where she had a pretty wide stance. I’ll try to get a photo of a more natural resting state stance and compare them.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

When you are looking at rear width, as I have understood it, it's the width between the pin bones (highlighted) and sometimes between the thurls. The stance is a nice indication too. I have to see if I can find pics, you want an out curving of the inner thigh vs straight.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

It's something I have begun to notice as I milk lol. I milk from behind so I notice the width between those pins as I'm sitting there busy.

She has fantastic height to her udder


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

annnnd forgot to answer the other question. As far as I know, the width can increase with growth a bit, not dramatically but until about 3 it can gain a bit more I believe. I read somewhere if they're narrow as a yearling give it time, but at 3 then that's what it is. I prefer to choose for width at birth personally, but that is my goal in my herd.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Oh, I see! She was a yearling I think when I first posted pics for people to analyze. So maybe she’s gotten a _little_ bit wider since then?
What does it meant to have an out curving of the inner thigh?


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

I think I answered my own question. Is it this?










(screenshot grabbed from edenslillydairy.com)


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Basically yes. These are two doelings I have owned. The one on the right was from a few years ago. Left is Mocha. So rear width takes into account various things.

Red horizontal is width between pins.
Blue horizontal is thurl to thurl which can also be viewed from above
Blue on thighs, you can see out curving vs straight - also curving at the escutcheon vs a point
Red on hips you can see width between hips and going down the rump.

WIth the two side by side, it helps to really see the difference.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Actually, I have Mocha's pins too wide, but just a touch. And the doeling on the right did need some more weight on her. I think at the time she was just getting over being sick.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

So I would say Suki has decent width. You also want width from front to back. So look at her chest width. 

I was trying to find pics of narrow animals lol. I have culled a lot so I had to dig. Look at the buck's width between his front legs, his chest width. He looks...pinched in his front. Then look at Peach. But you want that width follow through to the rear. In the buck's case, his lack of width went through to his rear which you can see in that pic too.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Oh, I see!! The pics really help. Gosh, that buck may be narrow but he sure has some gorgeous ears!! Is he related to London by chance?

I'm going to have a gooood look at Suki when she's out in the yard again today.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Yep, that was her son


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Jubillee said:


> I was trying to find pics of narrow animals lol.


I've got one. 🙄









And unfortunately, Phantom is tilted, but you can see that he is a much wider boy.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

I think I’m starting to understand!

With the pin bones, are those ideally almost as far apart as the hip bones? Or am I just imagining that I read that somewhere? Lol

I’m outside right now analyzing Suki. Her pin bones are definitely a lot closer together than her hip bones. Still trying to get a good look at her front end. She’s very busy trying to keep up with the little boys so she’s not standing still much! 😆


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Aha! Finally got a couple of semi-decent pics. Here are two rear shots that I think are pretty close to a natural resting stance (she was leaning forward a little and eating so that’s why the front legs look weird I think - this is the best I got).



















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And here is the one decent front shot. 










She’s definitely still on the narrow side and I’ll keep that in mind when choosing bucks. But I’m hoping she’s not toooo bad. What do you guys think?

Oh! Almost forgot I took a top-down of her rear also.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Oh yes, @MellonFriend has excellent comparison photos there. It's something that with practice you'll be able to see more and more. 

Hang on, I have some reference pics of rear structure, let me load them up.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Here are some various educational pics I have on my computer, a few more below this.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

More width/rear structure


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Okay that is amazing to know about the thurls. I have been unable to find an actual definition of what the thurls are in terms of actual anatomy so it has been hard for me to consistently visualize them. I feel like I've heard everything from the pin bones to the muscling in the legs described as the thurls.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

It's literally that lump on their thigh, the joint where her leg connects to the pelvis. I have a whole folder on my laptop of all kinds of pics like these, fascinating learning material. Maybe I'll upload to google drive and share!


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

That would be amazing!


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Those pics that show the anatomy that's pictures from a book, it's a book I cannot get my hands on and it frustrated me. When it does pop up online, it's pretty pricey. It is a fantastic book...ahhhh. Goat ppl don't let go of it.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Yeah it seems like there isn't a lot of goat confirmation info online beyond the very basics so it's hard to self teach a solid understanding. Maybe this summer once I start working again I'll have to buy some good books if I can find any.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Jubillee said:


> Those pics that show the anatomy that's pictures from a book, it's a book I cannot get my hands on and it frustrated me. When it does pop up online, it's pretty pricey. It is a fantastic book...ahhhh. Goat ppl don't let go of it.


What's it titled? I'd like to keep my eyes open for a resource like that.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

MellonFriend said:


> What's it titled? I'd like to keep my eyes open for a resource like that.


The Illustrated Standard of the Dairy Goat - Nancy Lee Owen


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Wow you are right, I didn't even find any hits for sale on the internet.😲


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

I have been digging and digging. When I happen to find it, it's super expensive.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

@Rancho Draco here is the folder of all the stuff I have. Lots of good illustrations and images. None are mine, just what I have collected over time for my own educational purposes. Dairy Goat Conformation Education - Google Drive


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Thank you! I'm excited to look through it all when I have a bit more time.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

So I took some reference pictures of my girls as far as width from the front. I have a wide, medium, and narrow example so it works out. Sorry there's ears all over all the pictures. They all wanted in to be fed so they wouldn't come out for pictures.

Red has one foot a bit back here but you can see just how wide she is through the front of her chest. 








Brownie and Primrose are both more moderate examples of width. I would like them to be a bit wider. 








Serenity is narrow through her chest.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Jubillee said:


> Here are some various educational pics I have on my computer, a few more below this.


Whoa, awesome!! You have an impressive reference collection! Thanks so much for sharing - this helped me a LOT.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

I had a good look at Murphy and Hasi today also - you guys have me all worked up and excited to learn haha!

Hasi:


















I think she’s wider than Suki but not as wide as Red and Peach. Those are some wide girls! 😍
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Murphy:


















I think Murphy is wider in the front than in the back. 🤷‍♀️
I’m still happy with him - he’s certainly an improvement over Suki. And he’s only a year old, so he may still end up widening a little more maybe?


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Idk why my goats never seem to have their tails sticking straight up like all the other pics I see. 
???

They do that when they’re walking but not so much when they’re standing still.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Murphy is def wider than his brother up there, which probably comes from Java as his kids tend to be much wider. I agree he's a touch wider up front. But yes, an improvement for sure and keep choosing better! Suki isn't terrible, I've see much narrower!

Red if fabulous and if you look between her legs in the front, the chest floor, it goes pretty much straight across. That's what you want. If it goes up on either side of the sternum, you loose capacity for the lungs and such in there.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

So, the way I would work that out if it was my herd and I wanted more width, was to work Red into the other animals somehow. Whether keeping a buck kid that had her width or some other way.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Red is really my best goat. I was really excited to get my hands on her. It's a real shame she's not registered. I haven't seen her fully in milk yet but I think she will have a nicer udder than the other two as well. I'm hoping to bring in registered kids this summer so I probably won't have the room to keep any of this year's kids but I would definitely keep a future herd sire from her if I were to pick. It will be interesting to see how her kids grow this summer as the buck she is bred to is leggy and pretty narrow.


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Jubillee said:


> Murphy is def wider than his brother up there, which probably comes from Java as his kids tend to be much wider. I agree he's a touch wider up front. But yes, an improvement for sure and keep choosing better! Suki isn't terrible, I've see much narrower!
> 
> Red if fabulous and if you look between her legs in the front, the chest floor, it goes pretty much straight across. That's what you want. If it goes up on either side of the sternum, you loose capacity for the lungs and such in there.


I don't think I've heard about the chest floor line before, so I'm super glad you mentioned that! Now I'll have to look at my doelings and see if Murphy gave them better, more straight across chest floors.

Dang, I'm learning so much! I also didn't know what the thurls were - guess they're literally the joint where the leg connects to the pelvis, if I'm reading right? Wow, so much knowledge!


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## Feira426 (Dec 11, 2019)

Red looks just AMAZING!


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Feira426 said:


> Red looks just AMAZING!


Aw thank you. I can't take credit for her breeding but I am proud to have her. She has awful feet as the breeder I got her from has had some health issues the last couple years and wasn't been able to keep up maintenance but otherwise she is a sturdy little goat. I finally have her walking on the soles of her back feet which is such a relief. I'll see if I can find some pictures of her before she got her balloon pregnancy belly.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

Not great pictures but you get an idea of how she looks. I don't think I'll ever really know how much of feet/leg issue is environmental vs genetic but she looks tons better after a couple months of corrective trimming. I would say her main faults are her weak chine, steep rump, she doesn't get deeper bodied towards her back end, and I believe she is posty in the back legs. For the most part I'm ignoring her leg conformation right now as it is changing so much as her hooves get corrected but I don't think her being posty will go away. I really like her overall meatiness (being a Kinder she should be heavier set than a dairy doe), her width, her length of body and rump, and as far as I can tell while dry her udder. Anything I'm not seeing or have misjudged?


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

She has a beautiful brisket and shoulder placement on her! She is very meaty...but I kinda like it. I think shes actually a pretty nice doe aside from her legs there. I would be happy with her.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I agree. I really like her. She has that chunk I love seeing on a kinder. Deep, long, and wide is a win-win-win in my book.👍 I also agree that her legs are a bit posty, but there are worse faults than that if you ask me.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

I certainly am very happy with her. She is meaty in a way that a lot of Kinders lack. The breed tends to be more dairy than they should be. The weight tape puts her at 110 lbs and puts the other girls at 95-98 lbs and she is the same height as them so she is meaty. Serenity is a bit longer than Brownie but is very dairy. Brownie, while meatier than Serenity, is a bit shorter bodied. I'm very excited to see how Red does in milk. My other girls have okay production but short lactation cycles. Serenity tends to peak at around 8-10 cups a day depending on how many kids she has. Brownie usually peaks at around 6-8 cups a day.


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> I agree. I really like her. She has that chunk I love seeing on a kinder. Deep, long, and wide is a win-win-win in my book.👍 I also agree that her legs are a bit posty, but there are worse faults than that if you ask me.


Yes there are definitely worse faults to have. I really wish she was registered. She is a nice doe.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Some additional rear structure for you. Including skeletal illustration of the out curving of the thigh


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

The other things I see with her is that she seems weak in the pasterns and over at the knee...hopefully helped by corrective trimming, but pinched in her pins making her hock in with the rear legs. Overall she has nice capacity...and so she seems so sweet!


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## Rancho Draco (Sep 29, 2021)

goatblessings said:


> The other things I see with her is that she seems weak in the pasterns and over at the knee...hopefully helped by corrective trimming, but pinched in her pins making her hock in with the rear legs. Overall she has nice capacity...and so she seems so sweet!


Thank you for taking a look! Yes, she has weak pasterns and is hocked in (or toed out) in the rear, as are all my girls. Its a really prevalent fault in the breed that I'm struggling to get away from. Her legs have straightened out some with trimming (she was walking on the outside walls of her feet when I got her) but I do believe she is also genetically hocked in.


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