# Kidding Problems



## Maria

I am new to the forums, and semi-new to raising goats. I have read books, forums and watched videos on you-tube, to learn as much as I can about how to care for my goats, but am discovering that book knowledge does NOT cover everything.

I had a goat that had a difficult kidding back in the last week of December. I know the signs to watch for, tail up, back arched, mucus etc. When I saw her mucus come out, I called the vet and he said if she had not had it by 3 that evening, to call him back.

She had not delivered by 3, I called him back, he asked me to bring her in. I thought he was going to help with the delivery, but instead he gave me a lesson on what to do if position was not right, and sent us home to "let nature take its course".

He said she should have the kid before morning. Morning came, and the kid had not arrived. I called the vet again, they told me he was out for farm calls that day and would return my call.

I have a friend in Montana that I called, she helped talk me through how to feel for the kid, but I couldn't get my hand in fully to tell. I could feel a hoof, but that was all. To make a long story short, I was able to determine she wasn't dialating, my friend had her vet in Montana call me, and she told me I had to get the vet to give her a shot or do the c-section.

I was able to find one vet almost halfway across the state that would have come and done an emergency c-section if I could have paid the $1,000 but I didn't have it 

My vet just poofed on me, never returned my calls, STILL have not heard from him.

I was finally on day three able to get a friend over who was able to pull the kid out. I had originally called her husband to come shoot my goat, she had been in severe pain for more than 48 hours by this time and it was breaking my heart. They raise horses, his wife I found out had helped others in the past with problem deliveries even with goats so she offered to come help and see if she could do anything. 

She said the goat was "dry" and that the baby was all twisted up, head below chest, one leg out (the one I felt) and one leg under, she explained how she was able to get her hand under the kids head. I had spent all night massaging her cervix every 30 minutes, she had dialated enough by this time where my friend was able to go in (she has very tiny hands) and get the kid out. The kid did not survive, but she was able to save my goat. 

she said not every delivery was this problemic, and that I should have better luck with my other 2 who were due.

Now again, I know what to watch for, back up, tail up, enlarging udders etc. My other goat, snow white, on the 8th she was fine, none of the signs at all other than back raised a little bit. Blue eyes, my first delivery, had arched back for 3 weeks before the mucus showed, so I figured snow white still had PLENTY of time.

On the 9th, the kids went to feed the goats and came running back to tell me snow white had blood hanging from her. 

I ran to the pen, and saw the afterbirth hanging out of her, the kid was in the corner, already dead. 

My FIL said a change in weather can make a goat go into labor, on the 9th we were getting winter storm warnings about an ice storm, so I don't know if this made her go into labor or not but she didn't have ANY of the signs of birth being soon. I was planning to move her into the greenhouse, where it is warmer for the kid, when I saw her mucus, or udders grow.

Once I stopped crying (my husband buried the kid), my oldest daughter told me she was still "pushing".

When I saw that, I moved her to the greenhouse, and made a call to the friend who had saved blue eyes earlier. She told me that sometimes twins are in seperate sacs, and that the next one should be born by noon yesterday.

I stayed up all night with her in the greenhouse, examined her occassionally, but figured since nature did fine with the first, it would do fine with this one.

Come morning (yesterday), there was still no baby. She is fully dialated, my hand can go in her much easier than it could with blue eyes, but I can't tell if there is a kid in her or not. I do not feel a hoof or anything. I can get my hand in about right above wrist, my friend had to go almost to elbow to get the other kid out.

I tried to examine her again this morning, I can't get the vet, my friend can't come help this time, we had an ice storm and the roads are not safe, but my poor goat is still trying to push something out and I can't help her.

She is not in pain like blue eyes was with her delivery, she just keeps walkign around, stopping, pushing. I see something moving inside her, on the left side I think it may be the rumen, but the right side, I can't tell if it's a kid or a contraction.

She's already passed the afterbirth, so why would she still be trying to push something out? 

The last time I examined her, she started bleeding like crazy, that's how I found this forum. I gave her a shot of pennicillan, and kept an eye on her, right now the bleeding has stopped but it makes me too scared to examine her again. 

I don't know what to do, I moved her back to the pen so that she would at least be happy with her other goat friends, she was miserable in the greenhouse. 

She's walking around, eating, playing, not acting like she is in any pain, but she is still pushing, usually a big push about 20 minutes to an hour apart.

Can anyone help me figure out how to help her? Do I just leave her alone, and "let nature take its course" even if it could mean she may have a dead kid in her by now? I can't even drive her to the vet that is far away (he's cheaper if I bring to the office during office hours). I can't drive on these icy roads.

I have one more goat due GOD only knows when. Now I don't trust to watch for any signs. When I bought my goats I did not KNOW to schedule their breeding, I thought I could trust my vet, and I figured he'd be the one to call if I had problems. I have learned my lesson, from now on, I will time EVERYTHING and keep trying to learn as best as I can, without relying so heavily on a "vet".

Now I see he's not trustworthy, and my heart is breaking, not just because my goats are suffering, but because I feel like I may have made a mistake in trying to raise goats, I hate to see an animal suffer, and this is tearing my heart to pieces. 

I don't know how to help snow white, and I don't know what to do about billy jean, the one that's pregnant still. 

Letting nature take it's course seems to be the general attitude of the farmers around here, but we don't let nature take it's course with humans, we shouldn't with animals either  We should be able to help them, and I feel so helpless right now.

I just wanted to post here to see if anyone can explain what Snow White is doing right now, with her still pushing. Is this normal even after the afterbirth has been passed?

Are the movements on the RIGHT side normal, can contractions look like a baby moving? I know on the left side, it could be rumen movement, but why the right side?

And if the movement is just contractions, why is she still having them? She passed ALOT of afterbirth, so I don't think there's some still left in her, but I don't know how to tell. 

I'm sorry for the long post, I just found this forum on google, have called everyone I know to call, they all say "if it's a baby, she should have had it by now, call the vet" and I can't get her to a vet


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## cdtrum

I am so very sorry you are going through this.....I only have wethers and do not breed.....but there are many on here that can help you out and hopefully will see this soon and offer advice. Wish I could help you


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## toth boer goats

Welcome...welcome.... :thumb:

The vet didn't sound that helpful..or supportive....that is sad... 

When a Doe pushing ...that is the best way... to indicate she is in labor...
if she wasn't in true labor...then she isn't quite ready to kid.... Just the things you mentioned..alone.... aren't an indication she is ready for labor...it is the pushing.......

What a God send....So glad a friend was able to help her...instead of putting her down.... :hug: :hi5: I am sorry ...the kid didn't make it..... :hug:

I am also sorry ...about the other losses ...so devastating....  :hug: 
Remember... if a Doe has already started labor.... it is crucial... to get the kid out...within 30 minutes or less... if the Doe doesn't have the kid ....within that time frame....you must intervene....or you can loose the kid ....or the Doe....

If the Doe is still open ....and she is pushing......there is most likely.. a kid in there ...the kid must be... way down in there..... you are going to have to go in ....keep working on her and try to get your arm to go in deeper...to reach for and get the kid out.......that kid must come out..... 



> My FIL said a change in weather can make a goat go into labor,


 I never heard of that.....and never had that happen.... :scratch:

The left side is the rumen.... :wink:



> She's already passed the afterbirth, so why would she still be trying to push something out?


 There are some... that may have a dead kid.. behind the afterbirth.....it does and can happen....

The blood ....is most likely... from the placenta...and birthing... which is normal....some have alot of blood... come out and we worry....but it stops shortly after.....so.... if she isn't still bleeding..... it is just the mess inside ....that will come out for the next 2 weeks or so..... I would go in..... if she is still open and pushing..... check to see if ...their are any kids left in there....

TGS is here for you.....vets can be ignorant in goats..... :hug: ray:


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## Maria

Thank you Denise, I hope my post makes sense, I'm thankful to have found this forum also. I wouldn't have found it if she hadn't started bleeding, that scared the crap out of me, I didn't want her bleeding to death.

Right now she's still waling around the pen, not bleeding, but still pushing every 20 minutes to an hour, at least from what I can tell, me and the children are checking on her, taking turns, one every 10 minutes.

She seems happy enough, except when she's pushing, then she has the curled lips, the glassy look, and something is moving her right side????? This has me so baffled, but not as paniced since she is acting as normal as usual between pushes.


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## liz

I am so very sorry that you have had such a rough start with your first kiddings.

If she is still pushing, then there is likely still a kid in there...bump her to see if you can feel one, movement of a kid is noticed on the right side.
To bump her, straddle her facing her butt, get your arms around her with your hands under her belly just in front of her udder, gently pull up then let go with her belly hitting your hands...if there is a kid, you'll feel it thump in your hands. Also, IF you can get into her with a very well lubed up hand and her cervix is still open, the kid may be in an off position and can't come into the canal or it also could be dead, and too stiff to manuever.
IF you go into her do it slow...it's very hard to hear them cry but do know that you are trying to help her...stay calm, once you are in and can turn your hand, gently feel for anything..a hoof or head or even a back, if you can feel anything kid like, rotate your hand around it to get a feel for what part it is, if you can get the head in the right direction, her pushing can bring it up to where you will be able to hook a front leg for delivery...give her some very warm molasses water to keep her energy up and a few squirts of Nutri Drench too...Calcium drench will also benefit her. Keep her warm and as long as she is contracting and pushing, there is a kid in there.


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## 4hmama

I agree with Liz...it sounds like there is still a kid in there. I have had does that passed placentas then had another kid...right or wrong - normal or not...it can happen. If you do go in - wash your hands really well first(or even use surgical gloves) then use something like KY gel to lube your hand so you can insert easier. It makes it a little harder to get ahold of baby - but it's easier to get inside. Call your friend again (if possible) and see if she can come help. The goat WILL scream and yell when you go inside to feel for a baby - but it's better than losing one or both of them by not trying. You will think your hand won't fit, but it will...I didn't think I could do it the first time I had to turn a baby, but it can be done. Good luck...saying prayers for you and the goats to get through this.

If the baby is presenting butt first, or head first with legs behind, you wouldn't feel feet...you may need to feel for baby...then feel down baby's body and try to find legs and feet. You CAN do this....just have faith in yourself, say a prayer for some help and guidance, and hand in there.


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## Maria

Thank you everyone for the replies, I did call my friend, and explained what's going on. I had hoped they were coming to check on their horses today, we let their horses stay in our pasture until they can get their pasture more suitable.

They are not driving out today, but she said what I am feeling is most likely the water bag, and that I can't feel the kid until it breaks.

When I get my hand up to my wrist, the cervix is still opened, and what I feel is like a mushy, balloon.

I examined her again, to be sure, and again, it feels like a balloon, and I didn't want to poke around too much in case I broke it. 

I milked her again to freeze the colostrum (we plan to bottle feed any surviving kids, and keep them in the house, out of the cold until it's warm enough for them to go outside), and her right side is still moving. I asked my friend if I was correct that the rumen moves the left side, and asked her if that movement on the right could be a contraction, she said no, not with it moving that much.

She said it sounds like the kid is still in it's bag, it's moving, there's no "danger" to worry about yet. She told me to move her BACK into the greenhouse where it's warm, and check her every 10 minutes.

She said it's not unheard of to have a twin in a seperate sac wait this long to come out, rare but not unheard of, but that they would be coming again to check the horses tomorrow, and that she would check her for me tomorrow, but that I shouldn't worry unless snow white starts acting odd, sick, unwell, running a high temp or in distress.

She said the movement means the baby is ok, and it's not a dead kid in her. I wasn't too sure how it could still be alive, but I guess it makes sense, it's still in it's bag, but geesh, I never knew labor could be so stressful 

Liz, I read about the "bouncing" to see if another kid is in the womb, I found that on google on some goat site. When I bounce her, there is something in her. That's what I have been telling my husband, he says put her out back in the pen and leave her, I say but if there's another baby, I don't want it to die too.

I told him there is SOMETHING in there, but I can't tell what, contractions, baby, more afterbirth? The movement on the right side looks like a ball moving onher side, just like a human baby does when it moves it's foot. It will go around, down, back, then in. The rumen side, when I see movement on that side, I can hear the rumen sometimes, sometimes not.

She also isn't tiny like blue eyes was once she delivered, she is still HUGE. 

Also, the molasses water, that can be given during labor also? I thought it was only for after delivery, but if it won't hurt the kid during labor, I will go give her some now.

Again thank you all for your help, this is baffling me to no end, but I can see the good out of this. This learning experience is going to save me a lot of money in the future, because the vet has lost my business where my goats are concerned (my dog will still go see him, at least he is reliable when one makes an appointment).

I was going to pay the vet to do all of this, but if I have to learn, I'll learn. Maybe it's better that I learn anyways, I'm always available for my goats, day or night.


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## liz

This doe CANNOT wait until tomorrow....she's already been laboring WAY TOO LONG you need to break that sack and help the kid, Give her the molasses water and wash up and lube up...break the sack because that kid is not in the right position to ALLOW delivery, the sooner this is done the better chance of survival the kid has...and each kid has it's own sack, there is usually one chorionic sack with kids in each amniotic sack. PLEASE, don't panic or be scared, this kid needs to be delivered now.


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## liz

I'm going out to feed...will be back shortly. I'm here and will offer phone assistance if you want.


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## toth boer goats

Your welcome .... :hug:



> When I get my hand up to my wrist, the cervix is still opened, and what I feel is like a mushy, balloon.


 It may be that ...she didn't pass all the placenta..... but you need to make sure .. and go deeper in her while she is open.... Sometimes if a kid doesn't make it to full term and dies within they can start rotting inside...and the Doe tries to reabsorb the kid...it feel mushy..... but needs to come out... Does the Doe have a foul odor ...from the vulva at all?

At this point popping any bag within....doesn't matter as you have to make sure there is no kid in there....just don't pull out any afterbirth.....



> She said it sounds like the kid is still in it's bag, it's moving, there's no "danger" to worry about yet. She told me to move her BACK into the greenhouse where it's warm, and check her every 10 minutes.


 I am sorry but I do not agree.... if she is already in active pushing labor....that kid needs to come out now....if by chance the kid is alive ....if you wait to long the kid will die...I hate to scare you...but this is a fact.....I am very concerned....for the baby and your Doe....that is risking the life of the Doe as well.... 



> She said it's not unheard of to have a twin in a seperate sac wait this long to come out, rare but not unheard of


I myself never heard of this...when they are in labor the kids should be born realitivly(sp) quickly if all is coming out as it should....



> Also, the molasses water, that can be given during labor also?


 yes it is OK....



> I was going to pay the vet to do all of this, but if I have to learn, I'll learn. Maybe it's better that I learn anyways, I'm always available for my goats, day or night.


 I see this as an emergency and I would call a vet.....I am very concerned...... :hug: ray:


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## Maria

Thank you Liz and Pam. I called the vets cell, it says his mailbox is full. 

I will try to go in again, will do the best I can. I do have small hands (not as small as my friends tho), just when she screams I get scared and stop, and this last time, all that blood made me not want to do that again.

She is drinking molasses water now, once she is done I will pray, lube up and see how I do.

I'll keep trying, I wasn't too worried seeing that snow white is happy and not distressed, and the kid is moving, but if waiting means I may lose one or both, I do not want to wait that's for certain!


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## liz

Will be praying with you... stay calm, she will cry out, don't be afraid. All it will take is you sorta poking the bag with a finger or pinch it while stripping it, once it breaks, you should be able to feel the kid and if it's moving thats a great sign.


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## toth boer goats

> Thank you Liz and Pam. I called the vets cell, it says his mailbox is full.


 :hug: ray:

She will scream... I agree ...but you have to remember... that it is for her own good.....and that you love your Doe... is why you are doing this..... if you get scared ...stop..... take a deep breath...and relax ...pray....then continue....you will do fine...I have faith in you.... you will get blood on your hand... no worries unless... she bleeds profusely....

I am praying for you...the Doe and the kid..... :hug: ray:


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## 4hmama

If you have someone that can help you hold the doe it makes things a lot easier. Have them at her head and hold her so she can't go anywhere... She will holler, there will be blood, and it's not going to be easy...but it can be done. Again - deep breath, prayer for guidance and help ray: , and dive in. Here's hoping for good results! If she is a huge as you say, she may have a kid stuck (live or dead) blocking the way for a third...? 

If you have any neighbors with livestock - you may want to see if they can come help...(just a thought). :hug:


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## liz

I just want to add that all advice I am giving is from experience, I have no vet schooling whatsoever, A vets help is always best, but when none is available or time is of essence before the vet can get there, all I can do is give instruction from experience...and prayers :hug:


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## 4hmama

Liz is great though...she has helped me when I couldn't get anyone else!


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## Maria

Again thank you everyone. I again tried to go in, cervix is still open, but I can't really tell what is in there. I was going to break the bag, but before it feels like guts? Very mushy, could this be the rest of the afterbirth and maybe she didn't expel it all?

It's like this is before the balloon feeling thingy, when I see movement, it's to the side, right under the top of her rear leg. Could there be afterbirth preventing the kid from coming out? Or could that be attached to the other bag? If so, how do I keep from tearing her womb if I try to go past it?

My husband says to weigh the pros and cons, what if I try to break it, what are the cons? Water breaks, I can't get the baby out, baby dies in womb before morning, I hurt the mama, mama dies.

Get her to a vet, any vet, first thing in the morning, so long as baby is moving, mama isn't running a temp, and mama isn't in distress then vet does the job, maybe saving baby, but certainly saving mama.

I sat and watched her for a few minutes after trying again, she didn't bleed this time, so no worries about that. 

She's walking around in the greenhouse like she has no care in the world, except when she pushes, then she squats, pushes, then starts back walking around.

I do know she has difficulty lying down, sometimes she tries, her bottom touches the floor, she tries to adjust, she stands again, then seems relieved when we "help" her lie down on her side. She rests, then gets back up to walk around some more.

That's the only time she even seems to be in discomfort, she's not acting like Blue eyes did, Blue eyes was in obvious pain, even when she wasn't pushing. 

With blue eyes I felt the bag before the water broke, I felt the head, I felt the hoof. All right at the cervix, I just couldn't get the cervix open enough for my hand to get in there, but my friend was able to.

With snow white, I feel the ballon, but before it, well it feels like liver purchased at the store, it's very mushy and obviously not a kid.

Maybe the balloon I am feeling isn't even a bag of water, maybe it's her bladder, heck I can't tell  

All I know is something is still in her, afterbirth, kid, the moving, heck maybe it could be her rumen making BOTH sides move. I am so unknowledgeable about this, I just want to cry. I wasn't expecting all this when I purchased my goats, wasn't expecting it at all.

There are other farmers around here, but I called them all back when I had problems with blue eyes. The general attitude is "Call the vet" or "Let nature take it's course".

One goat lady up the road, she was willing to help, but her words were "Maria, I would love to come help, but I have never experienced anything like this, you need to call the vet."

She said that with Blue eyes, and with this one. She's who I buy my hay from, she has hundreds of goats, and if she can't help me, I can't think of anyone else except my horse friend. 

I live in an area that has a lot of retired senior farmers, too cold for them to come out, it's flu season. And a lot of people younger than me, who moved to the country not to raise much more than chickens.

Some of the younger generation say "Shoot her, get the kid out, let's have a BBQ". That's a very cruel and heartless thing to say 

I even had one guy offer to do the shooting and dressing, but that's not the kind of help I want


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## Maria

Liz, I can't seem to figure out how to PM you my number. I have unlimited calling on my cell plan, if you could send me yours I can call you if you're sure it's no trouble.


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## liz

I'm here...724-354-3702


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## toth boer goats

Let us know how it goes...I am glad ...Liz is helping you...with a phone call.... :hug: ray:


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## liz

On the phone, have some progress...kid is alive but may be in a difficult position. Trying to maneuver her hand into her and is having trouble getting in to feel the whole kid.


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## SandStoneStable Farm

Thanks for the update Liz.

Maria, I'm proud of you just for trying your best. I know it's overwhelming without any resources to help.

Caryn


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## nancy d

Praying for you & your doe & that your friend with lots of goats would be willing to help you.


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## toth boer goats

Thanks Liz..... :thumb: 



Keep up the good work Maria....sounds like their may be hope....... ray: :hug:


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## HoosierShadow

So many thoughts and prayers going out to you Maria!


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## liz

Maria was doing a wonderful job with Snow white, we were not able to get the kid delivered, it is alive as it is moving and Snow White is doing very well..I decided that it was in Snow Whites best interest to let her rest and pray that she can deliver this baby. Maria has my number if she needs help once Snow White can get the kid into position, as of 10 minutes ago she was on her feet and eating hay. Snow White is a Kiko/Nubian and I was very impressed with how well she handled the intrusion into her, Maria did great and is expecting help to arrive tomorrow, even if Snow White still needs some help.


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## Hush Hills Fainters

Our prayers are with you, Snow White and baby...I hope everything works out okay...You are sooooo brave. Thank goodness for all the help .


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## toth boer goats

That is wonderful news..... :thumb: prayers still sent that way... :hug: ray:


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## Maria

Thanks again everyone, I truly thank you all. Liz is being kind in her reply, I kind of freaked out. I felt what felt like a kidney (it is the kidney Liz, I finally found a diapgram of it, didn't expect to feel body parts), felt placenta and started imagining intestines, then felt a heartbeat way back in the uterus and paniced, ok, I completely freaked out thinking my hand was touching the goats heart.

Before all this, Liz did help walk me through removing more afterbirth from the first kid, it was blocking the canal. Once I was able to get four fingers in, I felt what I thought was the head, and what I swore was a hoof, but I couldn't reach anything. I removed my hand to let snow white rest, and water came gushing out.

After that, my hand went in fine with no problems, that's when I started feeling around, with my mind playing terrible tricks on my imagination.

Now the kid is not blocked by anything, I am letting Snow white do the labor, and will check her again once I get warm, calm down, and get some coffee in me.

I hae looked up somew diagrams, there's no way I could have felt intestine, as Liz said, there was no blood or green stuff on my hand, just mucus, and all she is passing is clear fluids now so I didn't puncture anything other than the water bag, and the "heartbeat" I felt could not have been the mamas heart, my hand wasn't that far in, but I couldn't get my hand around the kid, or find that hoof again, to pull it. 

I'll try again after I complete my freakfest, this was an experience that was TOTALLY unexpected!

It was just so hard to get hand in the first time, then so easy after the water burst, that my mind just went berserk on me when I felt the kidney lump, I thought it would be bag, mush, baby.....and the kidney was surrounded by a film, so I reckon that was my hand feeling the kidney through the uterus.

Now that I can relax a bit, I don't know what I was thinking, I thought it'd be like reaching into a plastic bag and pulling a baby out. Books can NEVER prepare one for the first experience of feeling for a kid goat, NEVER. 

Thank you Liz for your patience, and for not hollaring when I almost freaked out. Everyone, Liz was completely patient, did not laugh at me, kept talking in a very calm, reassuring voice, she's a GREAT coach!

Now I'm gonna go pass out before I go check on snow white again.


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## liz

Maria...you did not freak out, a little un nerved maybe but definately not freaked. I am praying that Snow White stays strong and that this baby does make it into the world soon, she has a wonderful loving and caring "goat mama" and she knows it, otherwise you would have been wrestling her to stay still. :hug: Thank you for allowing me to coach you, even if we didn't get that kid, you know now what a doe's insides feel like and I hope that you get a happy ending :hug:


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## toth boer goats

your welcome sweety..... 
Hey it is perfectly OK...I do believe we all have been there.....and were new at delivery and problems.... each time it gets easier..... and it will be your DH that panics and freaks out...HeHe....well at least mine does.... :laugh:

The innards do feel yucky and it is the image created in your head..... that is why when you feel for kid position you have to almost close your eyes and imagine what the front hoof/legs... feels like... compared to the back leg..... so with the new kid on the ground... close you eyes and feel how the legs are so you can picture it if you are inside.....

When you reach in ...you go in and practically straight down ...it is hard to find at first but once you have done it ...it gets easier to find...

Believe me there are no lungs ect in that tunnel.... though it sure feels like it.... :wink:



> Now the kid is not blocked by anything, I am letting Snow white do the labor, and will check her again once I get warm, calm down, and get some coffee in me.


 Now if she doesn't progress soon...I'd do what you did ...to get out that next kid...... I have faith in you to do it....and you did.. :thumb: .great job.... :wink: 
Make sure... the kid gets colostrum... that was born....and make sure.. it finds the teat.... by the way.... what was it....a buck or Doe?

Hands on....training is the best way of learning... because it is so hard to explain....

Great Job Liz....I commend you.... :thumb: :greengrin:


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## jduwall

great job you both....please let us know how the baby and momma are doing...prayers t o you both...


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## lissablack

We are waiting with baited breath to find out what happens. Maria, you are getting a very unusual introduction to kidding. Everything that ever happens to you again will be easy compared to this. I can't even imagine what you have been through. You are a real trooper. Good for you, no matter what.

Jan


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## cdtrum

Liz....you rock!!!!! I'm sure Maria is so very grateful for your help!

Maria.....I woud have reacted the same way, but worse! I panic in those kind of situations, why I only have wethers and no does having babies. You are doing great!

I pray for the momma and baby to come through this just fine!


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## HoosierShadow

Oh Wow, I hope everything turns out with a Happy Ending for you Maria! Your a brave woman! I know I probably would have freaked out terribly too, so your not alone! I'm so happy you have such wonderful help here! I love this forum, everyone here is awesome!


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## bleatinghearts

> Books can NEVER prepare one for the first experience of feeling for a kid goat, NEVER.


Thank you so much for sharing this experience with us. I've never had to go in to one of my girls and I almost feel like I have kind of experienced it now. I read A LOT of books and not one gave such a realistic look at how it really is!

I'm sending out a huge prayer for you guys tonight!
Shelley


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## Maria

Update.....There's still no kid this morning, but Snow White seems to be doing fine. She's still walking around, eating, drinking her water, acting as if she has not a care in the world. My friend will be coming by later this morning, and will be able to help me get the kid out. I do not see it moving now, so it may be dead, but Liz told me this would probably happen. So long as Snow White is ok, that's my biggest concern, getting the kid out.

I spent some time with her last night just singing to her and praying, I could not rest until I had prayed until I felt peace, and until she had forgiven me for the intrusion (my mind was still playing horrible mind tricks on me, I was so scared I would walk out to the greenhouse and find guts everywhere). 

Snow White has never been angry with me, but boy, last night, she was totally ticked off. She kept walking to the wall and turning her back to me. It took about an hour of me singing and talking to her to get her to turn back to me and give me her typical goat kiss., this let me know that although she was still angry (she turned right back to the wall afters lol), that she wasn't AS angry as she had been.

When my friend gets here, after she helps get the kid out, I will post another update to the situation.

And again, thank you everyone, and thank you so much Liz!


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## minibarn

any news yet?


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## Maria

Another update, Snow White is still unchanged, still waiting for my friend to arrive. She started acting "depressed", wouldn't drink her molasses water, wasn't eating, was just walking around.

I checked her temp, 102.7 so alls well there. Milked her out, hoping that would perk her up, it didn't. 

Decided that maybe she needed company so I went and got Billy Jean to put in the greenhouse with her for a short while, so she'd have a friend with her.

THAT perked her up, she got excited about having Billy Jean in the greenhouse with her and there was an obvious perk to her step, she didn't run to Billy Jean, but she did walk fast to her.

On another note, Billy Jean has obvious changes, ligaments not gone but are looser (not as tight as they were yesterday), back arching a bit, but no filling of the udders or tail raising.

I think I'll leave her in the greenhouse now that she's there, to keep Snow White company, and so I can be sure the birth is in a warm place. She probably still has some time left to go, but after Snow White went into labor so fast without any noticable changes, I am too afraid to chance putting her back in the pen. 

I also called the VET again, again they said he was on farm calls, they would leave a message....this is what happened last time, he never returned my calls. His cell still says voicemailbox full.

Right now, Snow White is happier with company, but after watching her side for about 10 minutes, I saw no movement as I was seeing last night. I did reach into her with just a few fingers to see if the cervix was blocked, felt nothing, and didn't want to chance doing any damage, figured I should try to be patient and wait until someone who knows better what to feel for, to get here.

To be honest, I was going to try to get the baby out again, but my heart jumped and I got the shakes, to me that could be fear, or my instincts warning me to not try again. I usually follow my instincts, so I didn't chance it again. 

I'm not giving up hope yet, so long as she is happy, I will not panic. If she starts going downhill, I'll go park my bum in the vets office with Cowboy, my "very stubborn" "very big" Billy goat. They will call him just to get cowboy out of there!


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## Maria

Another update, I prayed this morning and that inner voice said "help is on the way", I felt that inner peace again, and then the VET called! He's coming out here to take care of her!!! 

I'll post another update once the vet leaves, I am going to keep praying, I don't have much hope for the kid, but it looks like Snow White will be ok now! The vet can get whatever is inside her out safely!

I am crying my eyes out right now, I have been so worried about my sweety. Thank you EVERYONE again for all of your help, this truly means the WORLD to me!


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## StaceyRosado

I skimmed through this and I got the gist of whats going on first off you need a :hug:

Second when the vet comes and the kid is removed I would put her on antibiotics for 7 days. (sorry if someone already said this but I wanted to make sure that information was passed onto you)


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## Maria

Thank you Stacey, I already gave her one shot of pennicilin yesterday. I know I was to give it after the kid was out, but since I was not sure a kid was still in there, and my biggest worry was infection at the time, I started her shots yesterday and was going to give for 5 days. 

I'll up it to 7 days now, my friend had told me to give for 5 days with Blue Eyes, so I assumed this was the correct number of days.

I am still waiting on the vet, he said it'd be after lunch, lunch hour is almost over, so hopefully he will be here very soon. My friend has not shown up either, but right now I am not as worried as I was last night when I thought I had hurt her.

If I had hurt her, she would certainly be bleeding to death, guts oozing out, something. She's still acting as normal as can be, no high fever, not eating as she was but at least nibbling, and STILL pushing. I have seen her poo and urinate, so my worries about me accidently puncturing her bladder are no more. Water did gush out and I was beginning to wonder if I had hurt her bladder. 

The mind can play horrible tricks when worried


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## toth boer goats

Prayers and hugs ...sent that way.... :hug: ray:


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## HoosierShadow

Many thoughts and prayers still going your way that all will be fine! Hopefully the kid will live, but if it doesn't just know that you did all you can do and it was God's choice.


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## myfainters

Thank goodness you finally got a hold of the vet. :hug: :hug: I'm sorry you've had to go throught his for your first kidding season. I have to say it is VERY uncommon to have so many problems with kidding so please don't think you will always have to go through this.  

I'd give your other prego doe some Calcium though...it can't hurt.


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## liz

I just got home from work, I am so sorry, I was really hoping that she would have gotten that baby out on her own. :hug: 
You really need another one of these Maria :hug: 

I hope the vet can do something, and if by some miracle, that kid is ok :hug: 
Everyone: I did ask Maria if she had any calcium drench last nite, she did not so I did suggest giving her 6-8 TUMS mainly because some calcium would be better than none.


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## Maria

Again thank you everyone. I am still waiting for the vet, surely since he called me he won't be a "no show" again. Last time he didn't even bother to call me, and seemed surprised this morning when I told him I left him several messages the last time.

Snow White is still unchanged other than now she is curling her lower lip a lot when she's pushing. 

I don't have calcium drench (but I do plan to get some), had never heard of it before Liz asked me about it, but I do have tums, and can get plenty more at the gas station down the road. Is it ok to feed these to Billy Jean also?


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## liz

Yes it is good for does to get a bit more calcium during pregnancy...before I even knew about the drench or the benefits of alfalfa hay or pellets, I was giving my Nigerian and Pygmy does 2 TUMS 2 X a day during their last month of pregnancy.

Since Snow White is still pushing and has now been curling her lip as she does, the contractions she's having are becoming much stronger, the lip curl is usually how they react to them. Each of my does do it as the pain intensifies.

I really hope this vet hasn't blown you off...for Snow Whites sake. ray:


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## Maria

Newest update: It does not look good. The vet just left, he said that there was a tear right above her cervix, an area that is impossible to stitch up. He said that it would be near impossible for me to have caused the tear, that it must have happened when the kid came out. He said it sounds like I reached the cervix the first time, then reached the tear the second time, and thought I was in the Uterus.

Those were her innards I was feeling, and he said it was her diaphram I felt "beating".

He gave her a tetanus shot, told me to continue with the pennicillan, he said the tear is in a good location for natural healing if left alone. 

He bounced her, said he did not think there was a kid in there, but that if anything was still inside her, kid or afterbirth, there'd be a chance of her intestines coming out of the tear if he tried to go in and get it.

He said her eating and walking as she is, is a good sign, and since she's peeing and pooping fine, that if that tear heals, she should be ok, but for me to call if I see intestines coming out, if she starts running a fever or if she stops eating.

Basically, if there is anything in her, there's no way to get it out without a c-section, but even then, the tear is in a location that would be very hard to stitch up, he said the last case he had like this where he did a c-section and sewed the uterus, the goat died within days, and that since she was eating, and not screaming in pain, that he recommended to let her heal herself. 

I was a torn wreck when he told me there was a tear, thinking I had done it, but he said if I had done it, I would have known it, because she would have been screaming like crazy and I would have felt it tear, and since the location is right below the backbone, he was certain it tore when the kid came out of her, that maybe the kid was in the wrong position and she just pushed it out anyways, which could also explain why the kid died.

I asked him what the water gushing out could have been, he said it was most likely urine, that he it didn't feel like there was a kid in there.

He said to leave Billy Jean and Snow White in the greenhouse together, told me it was plenty warm for the kid.

I want to break down and cry, but evidently our prayers are being heard, the vet was shaking his head like he couldn't believe she was up, eating and acting so "normal". 

When he mentioned intestines coming out, I asked him if I was to have her shot, he said no, to call him, and to be SURE any messages left says it's an "emergency". I told him I said that the last time, told them the kid was stuck, but evidently it appears that messages got crossed somewhere. 

He said they just told him Blue Eyes was still in labor, did not say the kid was stuck. So he told me to make sure I stress emergency if I see any of those three signs, intestines, not eating, or a fever.

I do know one thing, if Snow White survives this, she will NEVER be bred again. That leaves me down to one goat for breeding.

I went and got 5 bales of hay today also, the goat lady I buy my hay from is right down the road. She asked me who I bought the goats from, and asked me if I thought the lady would have sold me "bad" goats, and I told her I had been thinking long and hard about this.

When I purchased the Does and one Billy, the lady had babies in one pen that was about 2 acres, and then had babies with mamas in the larger acreage. Billy, my main, spoilt Billy goat, was a "runt" in the pen with Blue Eyes and Snow White.

Billy Jean was in the pen with the "mamas", the large acreage. I purchased her after seeing her moms udder, but I never did see the moms of the other 3. So now I don't know if the smaller pen was for babies that came from mama goats with difficulties. Billy Jean costed more, and I thought that was because she was a better milker, but now I am not sure.

Would some goat sellers do this? Seperate good from bad? And then sell bad to someone who doesn't know any better?

I really want to cry now, this is not only breaking my heart, it's breaking my children's hearts. I hate to think someone would be so cold as to sell kids ,from goats with problems, to unsuspecting people. 

The vet did not charge me for the visit, just the shot (bless his heart), he's made amends now for the mistake with Blue Eyes, now that I know messages got messed up.

I'm going to keep praying for Snow White, not breed anymore, and try to find a reliable seller to find a bottle baby for my 6 and 10 year old daughters. They want a bottle baby so badly, one they can raise to be a pet, for 4H, none of these goats are suitable for 4H, they all have horns, we need a baby that can be dehorned for shows.

I just pray now that Snow White heals, get better, and that whatever may be in her, doesn't rot and cause her to die. I pray she can expel it without expeling her intestines


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## SandStoneStable Farm

Maria,
I don't know what to say about the tear or if they could have sold you bad goats, but you are certainly going through a lot with the goats. They are animals, we can't ask them what is wrong or whar they feel and that's a challenge. It truly sounds like you care for them and are truly trying to give them a loving home. It's unfortunate that this is your first breeding experience (and it's been a doosy) I really hope Snow White does well and this turns around for you. Be careful you don't beat yourself up too much.
Best,
Caryn


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## Maria

Thank you Caryn. I am reading the other forums to learn and strayed into the workgoat forum, and was thinking the children may be happy with Cowboy pulling a cart. I think that'd cheer them up, and I think I can train Cowboy to do that. Billy would probably do that already, he's easy to train, but he's not as strong as Cowboy. They would probably love that more than a bottle baby. If so, I can get Cowboy and Billy castrated, so my precious does don't go through this no more. We're happy with our five pets, I don't think I want to chance anything else that may break our hearts. 

On a good note, I was able to save 4 baby rabbits, and no telling how many more. I had moved my 3 rabbits into the greenhouse for the winter so they could romp and play, when I went to give Snow White her next pennicillin shot, I found 4 wee baby rabbits crawling on the shelf. They had gotten out of the cage I had moved them into, to make room for the goats on the floor.

The babies and mama are now in the kitchen, with a proper nesting box, and she's still having some. Right now the children are oooohing and aaahing over the baby rabbits, and not as sad as they have been, especially my 6 year old, she's so excited to have a rabbit in the house. We have a "no animals in the house" rule unless it's an emergency, so it's always a treat to them when one gets to come inside, be it dog, chicken, duck or rabbit.

Snow White is still walking around, doing fine, no fever. The vet said keep her in the greenhouse at least a week, until she is done with her shots. I think he figures if she lives that long, then she'll be ok. At least that's what I am hoping, I hope he would tell me if he really thought she would not make it, but he seemed to have hope. 

He said there was no sense to put her to sleep, not with her acting so well.

I'm trying not to beat myself up, I'll keep praying, and will hope for the best.


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## liz

Oh my, I was so hoping there was a better outcome :hug: 

Unfortunately there are some "shady" people out there who will take advantage, it's a shame but it does happen. This could very well be a fluke too...sometimes it seems that everything bad that can happen does.

I will keep you and your family as well as Snow White in my prayers and please know that you have done and are doing all that you can for her and that there is nothing that you could have done differently that would have prevented this :hug: 

Keep watch on Billie Jean, and don't hesitate to ask for help if you feel she needs it...go with your gut, it's never wrong :hug:


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## lissablack

You have done fantastic Maria. I can't even imagine getting through it as you have done. And hopefully your girl will be well. And hopefully Billie Jean will give you a couple healthy kids. I don't have very many years of experience, but I have never had anything happen like what has happened to you in about 12 kiddings. So it is not common. And you did a wonderful job.

Jan


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## jduwall

I am so sorry for all you have gone through.... :hug:


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## nancy d

Yes you did a great job Maria. I know it was a difficult thing to do but you did great under circumstances & much pressure.
The vet is probably right about the tear, YOU didnt do it and it's something no breeder would know before selling unless it happened before on her.
Rest assured you did the right things the whole nine yards!
Everything from knowing something was wrong to seeking help & following your insincts.


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## StaceyRosado

you have been through so much! So glad the vet came out and you had already started her on antibiotics thats probably why she is doing so well. Doing it for 5 days is the minimum but most vets will tell you 7 days of penicillin especially in situations like this. Its your call though just suggesting what I would do in your shoes.


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## HoosierShadow

Wow, I can't believe what you have been through  It sounds like there is hope for Snow White, and prayers are going out to her tonight that she pulls through this! 
I agree, it could be a fluke, or someone who isn't a trustworthy breeder  I know there is a breeder not too terribly far away that will sell you his own arm if he could hack it off...it's sad 

Awwww baby bunnies!!!!!!! How exciting!!!! I am sure your kids are really excited about them tonight! God always has a way of bringing us up from those down and out times  I love bunnies. I raised some when I was a teen - started out with 2 and ended up with 16....LOL!!!


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## Maria

Thank you again everyone. I checked on Snow White this morning, she was lying down, chewing her cud, and still acting like she has not a care in this world. 

Stacey, the vet did say 7 days of pennicillin, so I'll be sure to go to 7 and not 5. 

Hoosier, I wasn't sure if the mama rabbit would reject the babies last night, due to me picking them up to put them back in her cage, but after I did that last night I rubbed a small drop of vanilla extract on the fur by her nose to mask scents, and it must have worked. This morning she had them all covered under more fur, and is guarding them like a mama rabbit should, thumping her leg when I come near the cage, saying "Back off, I have got this now" lol.


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## bleatinghearts

Thanks for the update. I've never met Snow White but I've been pulling for her and praying for her like she's a close friend. I had to sneak my phone around in my pocket all day at work yesterday just in case there was an update.  Are there pics of your goaties somewhere here on TGS?


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## toth boer goats

Praying that all will be OK..... :hug: ray:


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## Maria

Bleating Hearts, I've added a photo of Snow White and Billy Jean to this post, that's the only way I know how to add a photo here. I'll get some newer photos of Billy, Cowboy and Blue Eyes later today, I only have some taken last spring.

Snow White is the white goat, Billy Jean is the one with the brown head. 

Snow White is still doing well, she was cheweing her cud when I took the photo. Billy Jean was just lying there. They both got up walking around when I checked them out. 

I took snow Whites temp, 102.9, so no fever. She's eating, and obviously they are both thirsty cause they drank all the Molasses water I gave them this morning (2 gallons).

Billy Jean's ligaments are still loose, but still there, not gone completely, and this time, when walking around, she kept flipping her tail up, and she was pawing the ground a bit. But she has no udders, no discharge and no other signs that I know to look for to say labor is nearing.

I've gotten over my anger at the lady I bought them from, I was a bit sore yesterday when I realized she may or may not have sold me "problem" goats.

I've also made up my mind about breeding again. Billy will get castrated, if he's not too old for it. Cowboy will remain my main breeder, I have his family tree (purchased him from the lady I buy my hay from, she is very good with paperwork, vaccines etc. but she doesn't sell her does  ) and his family line is fabulous (his daddy is IMPRESSIVE).

If Billy jean has no problems, then I will breed cowboy with her. But Snow White (if she survives this) and Blue Eyes will not be bred again, I can not chance them having another difficult birth, they mean too much to us.

If Billy Jean has problems, well, I'll have to find a reliable place to buy at least one doe from, but this time I will know better about asking questions, seeing papers, seeing the mom and dad, and not being so trusting.

In the meantime, I'm still praying, but now I also have hope. This is day 4, no odor, no fever. I don't know what God is doing, but I did ask mom if He healed animals like humans, and she says yes He will. And that makes me more thankful for everyones help, and especially the prayers!

On day 4 she should be running a fever and smelling shouldn't she? She's not, she's even getting up and playing a bit, as if nothing in the world is wrong with her.


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## HoosierShadow

Maria said:


> Thank you again everyone. I checked on Snow White this morning, she was lying down, chewing her cud, and still acting like she has not a care in this world.
> 
> Stacey, the vet did say 7 days of pennicillin, so I'll be sure to go to 7 and not 5.
> 
> Hoosier, I wasn't sure if the mama rabbit would reject the babies last night, due to me picking them up to put them back in her cage, but after I did that last night I rubbed a small drop of vanilla extract on the fur by her nose to mask scents, and it must have worked. This morning she had them all covered under more fur, and is guarding them like a mama rabbit should, thumping her leg when I come near the cage, saying "Back off, I have got this now" lol.


 Sounds good to me! It's been a while since I've had rabbits, so I completely forgot how they are about people handling babies/rejecting them. 
How funny that she thumps her foot at you when you come near LOL!!! My girl never did that to me, I think because she was sooooo chubby it was too hard, hehe!!!!

So glad to hear things are good, what a relief


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## toth boer goats

I like hearing good news..... :hug: :hi5: ray:


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## HoosierShadow

Awwww they are sooo cute! I LOVE Billy Jean's face, and that expression she has OMG too funny! 
So glad they are still doing well


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## liz

Such pretty girls! Finally I get to see who I was _trying_ to help, they look good, and I hope that Smow White continues to improve. ray:

Maria, I think you will get some hope from this: Last March my doe Binkey was due to kid and well...I just had this feeling that something wasn't right, I am diligent about feeling for kid movement with all my girls and as long as I feel a kick I know that all is well, anyhow, Binkey was on day 145 on the 1st, kid was moving and her udder growing, and she seemed to be right on for imminent delivery. On the 2nd..same as I was anxiously waiting, however on the 3rd I didn't feel movement and she just seemed off, what made my guts twist was when I bumped her belly and I felt a brick bounce back, it literally sank to the bottom of her belly and didn't move...I knew the kid was dead at that point and awaited her to go into labor.Finally on the 5th, I got home from work at 3:30 and she was in the corner by herself, udder was huge and I saw that her water had broken...she pushed and pushed for 20 minutes and I called my goat buddy, as I knew she needed help and I needed moral support. During the wait for my friend to arrive, Binkey managed to present the kids butt...he was stiff and she could not deliver him because his hocks were stuck below her pelvis, I was able to free them and pull him out. He was delivered with no cord attached, and only seconds before my friend arrived. I was so scared and was waiting on #2 because I figured with her pushing the way she was, there was a twin, I bounced her and felt nothing. I bagged up the buckling, cleaned her up and started her on Pen G because of the fact that he was dead, milked her totally empty of colostrum and left her with molasses water to rest. I milked her out 3-4 times a day starting that evening, she adopted me but still cried and searched for her baby. She was eating well, on and off the stand like she always was and 2 days later after worrying because I hadn't seen her deliver the placenta I came home to her crying and saw a blob in the stall...she delivered a mummified doe fetus that had died around the end of her third month, going by the size of it. I was traumatized to say the least! Binkey was kept on Pen for 10 days and I watched her closely, still milked her 3 x a day to keep her production going . She did great, healed nicely and thrived. She was so well and healthy that I decided to have her bred last Fall...she's due on 2/23 and so far, those babies are kicking like crazy. I knew that the doeling dying had to be the result of a hard hit from my herd queen Angel and I surmised that the buckling got tangled up with his sisters remains and broke his cord. I am still a bit gunshy with her but I am praying that this time she has babies to raise, she is a wonderful and doting mom.
After this long winded post, what I'm trying to say is that there is a light at the end of that dark tunnel, good things can come from bad and Snow White will be well as long as she has your TLC and the meds :hug:


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## cdtrum

What pretty girls! Best wishes and thoughts coming your way!


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## Maria

Thank you again everyone. Latest update is that Snow White continues to improve, no fever, no worrisome signs. She is now not only walking about, but her strength is building up well. I just went to check on her to find her and Billy Jean playing together again. 

Billy Jean on the other hand, her ligaments are ALMOST gone, not all the way, but close. I can still feel them, but they are definatley not tight. She is still holding her tail up, and pawing the ground.

No increase in udders, no mucus and no water, so I figure she could kid from any day now, to maybe 3 weeks from now? Blue Eyes showed these signs and didn't kid till about 3 weeks later, that's when her mucus plug came out.

Liz, thank you for sharing that with me. As each day passes with improvement, I get happier and happier. Snow White is definately recovering well, it had to have been the prayers from everyone. I don't normally take the death of an animal hard, but our goats and dog, they are loved more than some of my distant family members. When we got the goats, I told the kids to name them, our rules are, if they have a name they are here to stay. 

If I say no name, that means they have to go one day, the children know not to grow too attached to them then. The plan was to name any Does that were born, because I wished to keep the first season of all does, and not name any Billys because we would not be keeping any more males.

Now the plans will have to change again, but I am having a hard time determining what to do. I am going to wait until Billy Jean has kidded before I decide. I know one Billy will be castrated, and if I can find a bottle baby for my 6 year old, that has been dehorned, they may both be castrated. 

If Billy Jean has no problems, I will breed her again in 2012 and just be sure to not breed Snow White and Blue Eyes again.


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## liz

I am so relieved to hear that she is doing well! :clap: 

Please continue visiting us...and of course we will be looking forward to Billie Jeans delivery as well as Snow Whites progress with her recouperation :hug:


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## Dunfactor

Maria,

Wow, you have really been through the ringer. :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: You really did a great job with your girls. :thumbup: :hug: 

I am so glad to hear that Snow White is doing so well. Man, when I came to the part where you were actually inside her abdominal cavity feeling organs, all I could think was thank the lord that you went with your instincts that something not right. :hug: I am not easily freaked out by medical issues with animals but that one got me. :shocked: 

I am thinking positively that all with be text book smooth with Billie Jean to help make up for your other experiences. ray: 

Tracy


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## ruedyranch

Wow, I actually was hoping to get some good info on this site because we are new goat owners and have 6 does that are due to kid in March. I guess now I know you have to be prepared for anything and everything. I do have lots of good neighbors and TWO great vets both great with goats although I myself know next to nothing. Half of my goats have kidded before with no problems and one had triplets. I am anxiously awaiting the birth of a healthy kid for your next doe.... :kidblack:


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## Maria

Again, thank you everyone. Newest update, Snow White has improved by leaps and bounds. She is now trying to get out of the greenhouse when I open the door, I think this means she's ready to get back outside! She has 2 more shots. one today and one tomorrow. 

I think instead of letting her back in the pen, I will walk her a bit outside later tomorrow after her last shot, then put her back in the greenhouse. Billy Jean has settled well in the greenhouse, seems to like being in it, and I don't wish to remove her "friend" yet, not since I don't know how much longer before she kids. She's calm and happy, both of them are, and I don't wish to distress either of them by separating them.

Billy Jean looks as if she is taking her time like Blue Eyes did, ligaments still there, loose but can still feel them, tail raised sometimes, sometimes not, udders filling just a WEEE bit, there's lil sacks about the size of quarters under her teats now. Her vulva is dry, no mucus, no plug, her back arched just a wee bit more and it looks as if the kid has settled "down", her stomach isn't as full looking as it was, and there's a hollow now at the tailbone.

I also think she's found where she wants to deliver it, she made a "bed" in the back of the greenhouse, right in the middle, and is spending a lot of time lying there instead of walking around as much as she was.

I'm not too concerned at this point, with no mucus and no big udders, I suspect it's still going to be days, or maybe even weeks, before she kids. She's not having any hard contractions, I think just small ones, when her tail raises, or maybe she's just raising her tail to get comfortable.

But I can't be for certain, Snow White developed udders and dropped her kid literally overnight, so I am checking every 30 minutes to be sure. 

Billy Jean is also becoming friendlier, she will now get up and walk over to me so I can check her ligaments and vulva (I think she understands that I will check her, and that it's no sense trying to walk away from me anymore, and that all I want to do is feel her tail, then look under it lol). I just look at the vulva, I am NOT examining her and don't plan to...if I see mucus I am going to call Liz again if she grants me permission lol. 

I reckon after seeing mucus, the kid should be out within 24 hours? If not, then that's when it's time to get help? When water breaks, it should be within 30 minutes, and certainly no more than an hour?

I'm praying that she will deliver with no problems, and that I won't have to call anyone for help. To be honest, I am nervous, trying to think that SURELY this one won't go badly, but not too sure anymore. 

Snow White on the other hand, I look at her and want to weep. She's improving daily, and even tho I have seen no sign of her expeling whatever is left in her, I have to have faith that whatever is in her will come out, with no permanent damage, once her body says it's ready. I'll be calling the vet again tuesday for her, to let him know how she's doing and to also let him know nothing has come out yet.

I know he said he could give a shot to help her contract, but didn't wish to for fear it'd make her expel her intestines, but maybe he hopes to do that once she has healed enough, I don't know. 

Again thank you everyone for your support, prayers and help. I plan to remain a permanent member of the forums here, I love reading the posts, and am learning a lot by reading past discussions.


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## Maria

Tracy, my mom says that sometimes, when God plans to bless something, that He allows trials to prepare someone. She is a preacher (I have had her praying for Snow White too), and said that I should look on the good side of this. Blue Eyes is healthy again, Snow White is improving by leaps and bounds, and that I have learned ALOT during these trials, how to check the cervix, how to massage the cervix, how to determine if there is a tear in the uterus, many things that can only be learned from experience and not from a book.

She said that the greatest lessons are those my children are learning by watching me, they are learning to be kind to animals, to love animals, and that it's ok to sit up with a sick animal just the same as it is ok to sit up with a sick human. 

She then said that the needle was the greatest lesson, to see their mom, handling a needle without passing out, after passing out at just the sight of a needle all her life, was showing them the ultimate act of love, something every child should see firsthand.

I had not thought of that, I have been so focused on my goats, that handling a needle isn't bothering me anymore. I've always been VERY nervous around needles, and now, I am handling shots like a pro, without getting dizzy, and without passing out.

When I was pregnant with each child, my needle phobia and me provided many laughs at the doctors office. The physicians and nurses would take bets when I came in for blood work, betting on rather I would pass out or not. Sometimes I did, sometimes I just got dizzy. I have passed out when my children got their vaccines, and even passed out when just SEEING a needle.

A friend who was training to be a nurse, came over to my home one day, many years ago, with a needle and an orange. She said she was going to help me get over my phobia. The moment she poked the orange, I passed out. She never tried to help me with my "phobia" again :ROFL: 

I used to wonder if I could ever do as my mom does, she gives her best friend shots for diabetes, and I used to wonder if I ever needed to give shots for my children or husband, would I be able to do it without passing out. 

I now see I could if needed, if I can for a goat, I can CERTAINLY do it for my children. That in itself is a BIG blessing.

I had not thought of what my children were seeing in all this, I did get embarrassed once when my 16 year old came into the greenhouse during a time I was trying to help Blue Eyes, she came in WITH her boyfriend. I could only look up from the ground, with my hand trying to massage the cervix, and say "I'll be with you later, right now I am giving Blue Eyes a massage".

Oh my face was red when my daughter burst out laughing, the look on her boyfriends face, well it was priceless....and my face, well once I realized how that must have looked and sounded, I KNOW my face was red as a beet.

I've seen him since then, and was able to explain what I was doing. He just laughed and said "whatever it takes to help the goat right?"

I reckon my children are learning a lot too. My oldest now says she's NEVER having children, and my youngest said "Mama, you're not using my tiny hands EITHER" (I had asked my oldest to help with Blue Eyes, she has VERY small hands, but she politely refused lol).

My 15 year old, she's my greatest helper, she and my son, they do not "gross out" easily, but they both have bigger hands than I do.

Sorry for rambling Tracey, I just wanted to explain that although this has been un-nerving for me, I can see the blessings in these trials. My children are also learning a lot, and if nothing more, my dilemmas have caused much joy for others. My joy is now, seeing Blue Eyes and Snow White doing so well, I can say I have my joy now, but before, I was a nervous WRECK.

Once Billy Jean is done kidding, I plan to walk all the goats, and the children, out to the pond for a full day of frolic and fun. They have all earned it.

I would do that today, but I don't want Billy jean to get TOO excited. She's settled in too well to her new surroundings.


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## liz

Amazing just how much we can learn from "simple" things, and Maria...I think you ended up learning through the trials of fire! Seriously, to have your first kiddings turn out the way they did is tragic, but a definate learning experience and when Billie Jean is ready to go, you will know exactly what to watch for, exactly what to do if neccesary( including calling me!) and you will know that staying calm and comforting benefits not only the critters but your own kids as well. :hug: 

My thoughts and prayers are with you as Snow White recovers and Billie Jean prepares to give you a healthy, un assisted delivery!


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## Maria

Liz, again thank you. Billy Jean is baffling me, we went to check on her a few minutes ago and she's obviously closer than a few weeks. Her tail is now staying up more than down, ligaments can still be felt but they are so far gone now, it was harder to feel them this last check. 

She has that hollow above her tummy where her back has arched even more, but her vulva is still completely dry, and she still has hardly any udders at all, just teats with just barely a handful of sac. 

I'm not worrying, not gonna worry, not gonne have another freakfest lol. I'm just puzzling over how 3 goats can have such different labors. it's not a worry kind of puzzling, just a "wow, who knew" kind of puzzling. 

I do not plan to do anything, until I see mucus, then I plan to just sit in the greenhouse and watch her, to be there IF she needs me, and to pray that she will NOT need me.


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## liz

Each one is DEFINATELY different! Billie Jean is in a comfortable and warm area, even if she decided to surprise you, she'll be fine.

Not all does will show a discharge when they are ready, some will wait til just before the pushing phase to show anything, and then all you'll need to do is have your dry towels handy as she pushes that baby out.


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## Maria

Thank you again Liz, I didn't know that either. Maybe I will have a lot of GOOD luck now, wake up in the morning, and find a happy kid frolicing with it's mother. It'd be even better luck if the kid is a doe I can use for breeding next year. 

The children are all laughing at me right now, they all have company, and I have been looking at all the companies hands to see if any are smaller than mine lol. None are, drat it, my 16 year old is laughing like crazy saying "you all better be glad you have big hands right now" lol. 

I just told her since she was the ONLY person in the house with hands smaller than mine, besides Mystic (my 6 year old lol), that THIS time, if a hand has to go in, it'll be HERS :ROFL: 

No I wouldn't really make her do that, instead, I am praying, and hoping and wishing that NOTHING has to be done for Billy Jean. I had at first thought she may have twins, but this was before her backbone got the hollow. Before that she was HUGE, now she looks about the same as Blue Eyes did, so it'll probably be a single.

Either way, once she has kidded, I am going to have one huge cryfest, with joy, knowing that kidding is over, and my goats can get back to their happy playful selves! 

Surely this kid will survive, it has to, no ones luck can be THAT darn bad!


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## lissablack

Keep us posted, please, we all want to know how it turns out. I think when they drop like that it doesn't mean they are smaller than you thought. I think it means she is getting closer. Hope she has two, they are smaller then and they will have each other for company. 

I am pulling for you and your girl.

Jan


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## Maria

Thank you Jan. I created a seperate kidding thread for Billy Jean. It looks like Snow White is going to be ok, although there was a bit of a change this morning. She had a bit of blood hanging from her, and I found a tiny bit of afterbirth on the floor beside her (and it didn't have that rotting stink one would expect). There's no dead kid anywhere that I can find, but she has expeled something more. She's not pushing as she had been, but if that bit of afterbirth could come out, then maybe she can expel anything else that's in her. 

I am trying hard not to think about what's left in her, I KNOW I saw movement back when she was pushing so long and hard, but since she's doing so well, I'm trying not to worry, having faith that the vet can get whatever is in her out, as soon as he feels she has healed enough. 

For all I know, that movement could have been contractions, but it sure did look like a kid moving about.

She's actually acting like she is back to her normal self, anxious to get outside, her tail is still up, but since Blue Eyes keeps her tail up a lot still, I figure this is normal as the bones settle back into place.

She gets her last shot today, and will remain in the greenhouse until Billy Jean kids. Billy Jean is not stressed, and I certainly do not wish to cause her any stress with her so close to kidding. 

My husband gave me a James Derriot book to read, told me this guy was a real vet back in the olden days. I read the book and was surprised to read about a C-Section on a cow, where the calf got hay and dirt in the gut when it was delivered, and how the uterus wasn't sewn completely back up because he couldn't reach the rest of the tear. And how that vet thought the cow was certainly going to die, but instead ended up calving 8 more calves during it's life.

Since this was a true story, it brought me even more hope. I may have felt Snow Whites guts, but my hand was VERY clean. There was no hay or dirt getting inside her organs. 

I still don't plan to breed her again, but I guess one can say now that she has passed day 7, I am wanting to jump up and down with pure joy. She's out of the danger zone I think, I'm not even going to think about if there's a dead kid inside her. I'll let the vet do what needs to be done, and if there is, it looks like she's healthy enough to handle whatever it'll take to get the kid out. The vet wasn't concerned with a c-section, he seemed more concerned with trying to stitch the uterus, so I reckon I need to take her in for an xray now that she's up to the trip. The vet examed her belly by hand and said he doesn't think there's a kid in there, but only an xray will ease my mind about that.

I'm just so happy to see that no intestines came out of the hole when she pushed that bit of afterbirth out last night, that shows me that tear must be healing very well!


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## jodief100

I am so sorry for your loss. You tried so hard. Glad your does are okay.

What you thought was movement may have been the rumen settling back into place. It can sometimes look like baby movement. If she is doing that well I doubt there is a kid still in there. 

Good luck with Billie Jean, hopefully this one will be uneventful. 

:hug:


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## Maria

Thank you Jodie, it very well could have been the rumen, it was throwing me off with it being on the right side instead of left.

Latest Snow White update: I had to go to town and just got back, we gave Snow White her last shot WOOHOO. And Snow White had passed a BIG clump of something, I can only assume it was more afterbirth? It did not stink or have a rotting kind of smell to it, she as eating it (ewwwww) when I went into the greenhouse.

She also had mucus coming from her vulva, more discharge, but not bloody like it was this morning.

I can only assume by this that her uterus is still working ok, it wasn't guts that came out, just what looked like a big blood clot of mucus. Not bright red, but a bit brown, red and jellyish looking, maybe the water sac the first kid was in?

Not much grosses me out anymore, she's still doing fine, so I can only assume her body is getting rid of what it needs to rid itself of. She'll be going back to pasture as soon as Billy Jean has her own kid to keep her company.


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## StaceyRosado

she will clean out off and on for a couple weeks -- so if you see a bloody discharge thats totally normal


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## Dunfactor

Maria,

:hug: Your mother sounds like a very very wise woman. You are lucky to have her and your kids are lucky to have a great mother also. 

You should be proud of your self, especially for overcoming a strong fear of needles to help save your beloved goaties. :thumb: It is great that you are able to see the positives of what you have gone trhough and to learn from your experiences. :hug: 

LOL, I loved the story about how you met your daughter's boyfriend and the orange. :ROFL: 

I am sooo glad to hear that Snow White is still doing so well and am still praying for Billie Jean to kid easily with healthy kids to play with. ray: 

Tracy


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## ruedyranch

So glad to hear she is doing better and hopefully it was a placenta she passed and all will be well. Can't wait to hear you have frolicking goat kids as well. I'm sure everything will go smoothly for you this time. My thoughts and prayers are all yours and your girls!

Michelle


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## Maria

Thank you again everyone. It looks like Snow White is completely out of the danger zone. She has nothing inside her uterus, the tear is healing well, and she's becoming very spoilt rotten lol. She still has a clear dicharge, but no more blood, and her backbone is slowly going back down. Best of all, she's no longer pushing, so it looks like it was more afterbirth she was trying to push out. 

Blue Eyes didn't push anymore once hers was born, the afterbirth just came out. Mom asked me if maybe that second blob could have been an undeveloped fetus, I told her I have no idea, I'm just glad that Snow White is doing so well.

She's ready to go back to her pen, but I'm waiting until Billy jean has her kid, so that Billy Jean doesn't get stressed from lack of company.


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## kylee

Ok my goat had a baby recently and we went to put them in the stall and my goat ran away but left her kid. And before the fact she was nursing An everything.I am starting to her worried becouse we left the kid in the stall and went to bed. Will she ever come for it?


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## Di

Kylee, you need to start a new thread...not add to a thread that is 2 years old! You will get more info if you start one...maybe one of the moderators can move this for you.

Where is the mother? Did she run away from the farm? You have to take care of this kid if you can't find the mother. Get it started on a bottle, but, I would move it to a place where the mother can find it if she comes back...make sure it is in a safe place...with shelter. But, you have to feed the kid...how old is it?


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## billjohnson

Do boer nannies have more trouble kidding than Spanish or angora nannies


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## canyontrailgoats

No. A mature, well grown boer doe will deliver just as easily as a Spanish or angora.


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