# The growing problems with goat showing



## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

Not sure if anyone wants to read my rant but imho the whole "show goat" thing is a racket in it's own riot. My kids have been involved with showing through 4-H and FFA for over a decade now. While the show goat world is relatively new to the whole seen as compared to beef and swine, it has caught up on price with the other species fairly quickly. 

I used to see kids back at the beginning of all this mess spend market price for a goat and do quite well occasionally. Nowaday, if you don't spend $500-$1000 for a show goat you're rarely invited into the big ring without being sifted first. That being said, a lot of it has little to do with the quality of the animal, it has to do with the racket formed by the big breeders. 

If you don't believe me, pay special attention the next time you're in line for weigh-in to the breeders tags that are in the ears of most goats. Used to, you'd see generic scrapies tags in all animal's ears as required by law. Today, a large percentage of the "big boys" have ordered their very own special tags for goats' ears that have their farm name on them printed very proudly. 

Next, when the goats get into the ring, pay special attention to the judges' actions as he scans the goats entering the ring. I've actually seen them watch a line of 20 or more goats entering the ring and seen him pick up on one specific goat as it enters and absolutely never give any of the others a second look. I know, I know, it happens with all species but it's especially bad with the goat industry. 

Afterwards, when the dust has settled and the blue ribbons have been awarded, you happen to see the judge setting in the snack shed having a show barn frito pie with some person who showed up in a $50,000 pickup pulling one of those short squatty trailers with the same name decaled on the side of it that happened to be printed on the flashy eartag of the goat he was so interested in entering the ring earlier. 

By being observant, you soon recognize that the judge is actually a goat breeder or an Ag teacher that is coming from a neighboring town. Last week, today's judge's son was showing one of their own show goats at their hometown show and it had it own flashy breeder's tag in it's ear. Wouldn't you know it, today's blue ribbon winner that showed up in that $50,000 goat pulling rig was the judge at that show. 

Not many people realize it, and it may not be this way in the "big" world of goat showing, but locally, here's how it works: There's not too many people in this world with a sole profession of "show goat judge". There's just not enough money in it to pay the bills. In order for it all to work, when the Ag teachers, county extension agents, and others putting on the show get together the question "who's going to judge this show?" comes up. That's when someone says, "We can call ol' Tom. He really knows goats well." What we don't often realize is "ol' Tom" is a goat breeder from the next county. Ol' Tom just had a show in his county last week and he called one of our locals to judge his show. It's a very controlled environment and a tight knit circle of people that organize, support, and ultimately win these shows.

Here's how it all works: It's the ol' "I scratch your back and you scratch mine and both of our herds' goat crop for next year will skyrocket in value."

Before long, when everyone sees their goats winning at all the shows our competitive desire to win will cause to us to approach one of these winners and inquire about buying a show goat for next year. Before too much longer, even their fish-teated, three-teated, and even cull goats have been sold to prospective blue ribbon winners all at inflated price. 

Here's the other side to the coin: Before too much time goes by, sometimes too late to make it happen before our kids graduate, we begin to think to ourselves, "Why don't I just buy a couple of good does and raise my kid's own goats from now on?" Great idea, right? 

What we fail to realize is there's already too many big fish in the small pond we're swimming. Unless we're willing to mortgage the farm for a blue ribbon, no matter how good the goats are we take to the show, we're not going to beat (usually) the guy who cornered the market with what was once a market priced grade of animal. He's done all the homework, made all the contacts, and got his name out there before us. 

Another thought: When the show season is over what do we do with the show doe we now own that we paid way above market price for? We're faced with a tough decision. Do we contact the guy with the $50,000 rig and spend lots of money for stud service? Or, do we take the goat to the local goat auction and sale it for 1/10 of what we paid for it 6 months earlier and afte spending $20 per sack on high dollar show feed? 

Boer goats were developed in this country for meat. They are a good breed of meat goat that has a high carcass yield for meat. A practical price to pay for a boer goat is what they would sell for as meat. 

If the racket could ever endure true equality to pick the best goat for the blue ribbon, it would institute a policy that would require all breeder's tags to be removed from ears, all animals to be slick sheared right before show, the animals to be on a "rate of gain" policy, and would prohibit the drenching of goats at the show barn. 

When we start seeing hair sold by the pound for human consumption at the supermarket I could agree with all the fluffed up hair cuts and drenching that goes on to make their appearance better. Otherwise, boer goats are made for meat!

Sorry for the long rant here, I just hate to see more prospective breeders throw the amount of money away that I did only to see they're trying to enter a previously cornered market.


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## hearthnsoul (Jul 5, 2009)

You know, I can't even begin to know what the judges are looking for, this has never been a focus I had. However when I bought my first goats I did buy with their lines and ribbons in mind, without having a clue what that meant. I figured I would some day. Still don't! But my Appy, who just passed on, I could see in her a perfection in form. Her udder was phenomenal symetrical balanced, and even in my untrained eyes she was just Proportionally perfect. But this is from a lay persons eyes. Now I have had other goats that were not in my eyes perfection. So whether I am right about it or wrong I can't say. But I have indeed seen goats that were high end and costly, their lines were supposed to be exemplary, and as a lay person, in my opinion, I just didn't see whatever it was I was supposed to be seeing. My oldest daughter who hasn't a clue about goats saw a top of the line herd one day and said to me later, explain something to me what makes those goats so expensive, your girls seem to be in much better form. So I explained it to her the same way, I don't know why, because someone said they are I guess. I just found it funny that she as well noticed what I had noticed, neither of us experts, heck even beginners in goat judging, but we both noticed the forms and said what am I missing. There may indeed be something to what you say, I don't know, but for myself I have noticed and thought hmmm?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I dont ear tag my dairy goats but i did used to with my angoras and boers and i was very proud of my ear tags with my farm name prunted on the bottim. I was required by our rules to put tape over the name in the judging ring. 

Its not clear hether you are meaning that the exhorbitant prices ar for market wethers or breeding stock. Good quality breeding stock is always going to be more than market price. And the thing about a lot of those.show goats is that theyvare born into a grain bucket. Literally many of them are on ad lib grain their entire life. A bfriend.of.mine says success is 10% breeding and 90% feeding. 

What i dont agree with is show steers being bought and sold for $40K +

Although our show.scene in aus is a little.more.realistic.we do.still have many similar problems. But i placed 5th in a class of 22 does one time, my doe i bought for $350 at weaning. Her mother was a $90 commercial quality doe. So it can be done. I beat several.of the big wigs with that doe. I didnt pour the grain ti her either.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

It really doesn't matter what the livestock is. Shows aren't always fair. Judges favor certain breeders. Saw tons of favortism in alpaca shows too. I used to find out which judges were judging a show and I only showed in front of certain judges and didn't waste my time with other shows.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

What kind of shows are you talking about? Where are you located?
I've never even been to a 4H or FFA show. I hear about "The big jackpot shows in Texas". Never been to one of those either, but I admire the amount of money some of the breeders who's goats win those shows get for their goats.

I've been to and shown in ABGA shows. There is a certain amount of complaining that goes on by those of us not winning there too, but the more shows I go to... the smarter the judges seem to get. :thinking: There's a big outfit up here in Wa. State that wins a lot at our shows, but most of the judges we get are from Texas. They probably know who these big breeders are, but they do have nice goats. They take the same goats that they beat us with to Nationals and win there too against Texas people with these same Texas judges, so it starts getting hard to claim it's rigged.


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> What kind of shows are you talking about? Where are you located?
> I've never even been to a 4H or FFA show. I hear about "The big jackpot shows in Texas". Never been to one of those either, but I admire the amount of money some of the breeders who's goats win those shows get for their goats.
> 
> I've been to and shown in ABGA shows. There is a certain amount of complaining that goes on by those of us not winning there too, but the more shows I go to... the smarter the judges seem to get. :thinking: There's a big outfit up here in Wa. State that wins a lot at our shows, but most of the judges we get are from Texas. They probably know who these big breeders are, but they do have nice goats. They take the same goats that they beat us with to Nationals and win there too against Texas people with these same Texas judges, so it starts getting hard to claim it's rigged.


I'm not referring to ABGA shows or any type of ABGA club.

I live in SE Oklahoma and see primarily county fairs and state fairs for school aged FFA or 4-H children. There is no registration or breeding required, it's a "goat show". Problem is, if it isn't white with a red head it goes to the end of the line!

The kids here are trying to compete with the locals who have the market cornered and are resorting to going to Texas to buy some of the "good" goats.

Whether they be market goats, show goats, or breeding stock goats, they are still classified as a meat goat and would sell for market price at the market. No matter what you do to them, they're still a meat goat!!!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh Tim I just had to laugh at your comment about "the more you show the smarter the judges seem to get."


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Yes they are meat goats and wethers and culls should sell for meat prices but do you sell potential brood does, show does and breeding bucks for market price? Breeding stock should not be market price even if they are meat animals. Otherwise there is no distinction between the correctly.marked traditional doe who conforms to breed standard and the fish tailed doe with dished face.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

keren what he is saying is that for their 4H and FFA shows (the ones for the kids) they are using just individuals not real judges to judge the show (so call it a fellow breeder) who is BFFs with that local county's "big breeder" and so they always pick their kids in the show ring regardless of structure, teats or pigment. Its all about "oh this is my friends goat so I get a kick back if it wins so of course it will be my first second and third etc placings" 

and then the prices of those kids from these breeders sky rocket and regardless of what prices they can get at market they still have to buy them way over priced if they want a chance at the blue ribbon. 

Its wrong but sadly I dont see a way out of it.


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## merrykatherine (Oct 9, 2012)

Stacey,
You hit the nail on the head when it comes to 4H and other kid shows!


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

It seems like this is a problem with alot of youth shows. Who ever said it is 10% breeding and 90% feeding, I agree. Good genetics are great! You know there is potential then and you know what they can do. But with out feed and proper management you won't get anywhere. If your animal doesn't look the part a show goat then your not going to win. I would never take an ungroomed goat into the ring or a goat that wasn't up to par as far as weight and over all condition. 

There is a certain amount of work that goes into making any animal a winner. I work hard with my goats, especially the wethers, and when i win its fairly. Last year was my second year with goats period. I got four grands on a very competitive show circuit. Knowing goats and feeding helps, lots of research, learning from my mistakes and other mistakes is what got.me here. Not to sound cocky, but I am very proud of my wins. Its true, good breeding stock will go for more. I wouldn't want market prices for a doe or buck that will produce 10 times that in market kids alone. Personally, I have a limit for what I will pay for wethers. I think some of the prices are ridiculous but at the sametime I can recognize a good goat. 

I'm not calling anyone out, just stating what I have noticed. Alot of people who think they should win or get mad over who wind really need to evaluate their herd and feeding practices. It really looks like sour grapes when they continue to complain about consistently placing low. It aggravates me to no end when someone tells me that another persons goat doesn't deserve to win when it is indeed the best goat. I know people have probably said my goat wasn't the best or I didn't deserve to win, it bothers me. But it would bother me more if I quit showing because of nay Sayers. I'm going to keep buying my show Goats and feeding them up and hopefully, if all goes as planned, winning


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I understand what has been said stacey. 

Whether it is that way or not is not what i am commenting on. 

Yeah i dont agree that show goats should be $1000 + but they should also not be market price. 

We have small shows here where proper judges arent used, but they are generally fair. 

Perhaps you could move towards sanctioned boer goat shows with accredited jdges if you feel the 4H ones are too rigged?


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

the thing is the OP is experiencing this problem and is venting their frustrations over the seriousness of it - thats great its not happening for you but it is for them. I do believe they understand that proper feeding and good genetics will get you where you want to be normally.... but are experiencing that this is not the case in their counties.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

StaceyRosado said:


> the thing is the OP is experiencing this problem and is venting their frustrations over the seriousness of it - thats great its not happening for you but it is for them. I do believe they understand that proper feeding and good genetics will get you where you want to be normally.... but are experiencing that this is not the case in their counties.


The way I read it is the OP believes a goat should sell for no more than market price regardless of genetics. I disagree with that, of course I could be reading it wrong.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Thats what i read too danni. 

I guess i just thought the issue in general was open to discussion and everyone was free to share their experiences and thoughts.


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## goatgirl132 (Oct 18, 2012)

Dani-1995 said:


> I would never take an ungroomed goat into the ring or a goat that wasn't up to par as far as weight and over all condition.


this right there is what killed me about what she said.
the ungroomed part shure i get that i Wouldent eather. but my first years goats and my current goats arent up to par on their conditioning. neather are alot of other kids goats i know.

www.Facebook.com/wickedshowchains


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I remember we went to a show last year, and someone said that the judge was 'picking the state fair kids.'
I paid closer attention and saw that person was right! The 'popular' kids we'd seen at other shows were at the top of the classes when at another show with a different judge, they were more spread out.
People we know that came to see our kids show, and who are used to the horse industry kept commenting on how unfare the judge seemed to be, like they were picking the winners of the market classes before they ever touched the animals or took a real good look.

I was skeptical.

Then, the very next show we went to, we saw the judge...they were there, but not judging that show....no....they were there visiting their friends. The kids that they'd chosen to win at the previous show!
That really upset me.

I know all these kids work very hard, and I wouldn't ever want anything to be taken away from kids. But wow, that just really opened the door to how crazy, and competitive it is. 

I am sorry, but I will not buy into it. I might try to improve our kids percentage and/or fullblood does so they can continue to improve that way, but I am not getting crazy over market animals.
My kids WILL breed and raise their own market animals, they will do the best they can with those animals, and be proud no matter what. Because IMO, that is more important than trying to top the class with a fancy, expensive market wether.

When I hear how much a lot of kids have to pay for a show wether, I am just appalled. I know it's business for a lot of people, but come on THESE ARE KIDS. 
Breeding stock, I can see being costly, but market animals that are aimed at kids, shouldn't be over the top. 
I've seen kids on line in general brag that their parents spent this and that on an animal, and I just can't help but shake my head and say...that's crazy. 
And that is certainly not something I want my kids dragged into. I want them to be able to feel good about themselves and their animals. 
Not how much we had to spend in order for them to have a decent market animal by so-and-so, etc..


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## HamiltonAcresBoers (May 9, 2012)

I don't think to say that only certain people will win just because they're "popular" is always true. This past year, I showed my doe kid out of a $100 commercial doe and placed reserve grand junior doe under a doe who the girl payed over $800 for. There were $1000 does who placed under my girl. The kids who placed under me are what we call fair royalty. They normally do not lose. But my free doe kid beat them. I didn't pump tons of feed into her, and I'm not well known by any means. If you have a fair judge, you'll have a fair winner. If a judge is choosing favorites, then they have NO place in any show ring.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

The incident I explained above was the only one I noticed. I really liked the rest of the judges and thought they were really fare/good judges.
It will be fun to see how the kids market goats do, but they have to really work those lil guys lol Just getting them weaned and their first show is in 2 months. My kids are still having trouble understanding that market goats are not does, they have to be muscled. So I don't expect blue ribbons haha, but they'll have fun anyway.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

goatgirl132 said:


> this right there is what killed me about what she said.
> the ungroomed part shure i get that i Wouldent eather. but my first years goats and my current goats arent up to par on their conditioning. neather are alot of other kids goats i know.
> 
> www.Facebook.com/wickedshowchains


I didn't mean not the best quality. I mean Goats are thin and just not in a good, healthy state period. From the pictures you have posted your Goats all look to be in good health. It was just something that came to my mind while I was typing, not aimed at anyone or anything said here. I apologize if it came out that way


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Someone had mentioned looking at who the judge was going to be ans showing only if it was a judge with a good reputation, known for being fair. I do this sometimes. I have judges I refuse to show under because they pick their friends. It happens all the time in life, not just in livestock.


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## goatgirl132 (Oct 18, 2012)

and i must say iv veen under a judge who chose only the pretty girls no mater how their goat looked 
and iv had a friend Hes had this judge twice(Hes known of) that did this to.

i mean all the girls in the pretty blouses got picked serveral times even though their goat looked horrible. (because they know the judge... etc) my mom even asked me if i watedbto go off the traditional sbow shirt into a nice blouse and i said "no if Im unna win Im unna do it right and Im gunna look correct while doing it"


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## merrykatherine (Oct 9, 2012)

All shows are different, just like ALL judges are different. We can't compare "apples to oranges" so to speak. The fact is, it exists...and that's why we made the choice not to take part.


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

StaceyRosado said:


> the thing is the OP is experiencing this problem and is venting their frustrations over the seriousness of it - thats great its not happening for you but it is for them. I do believe they understand that proper feeding and good genetics will get you where you want to be normally.... but are experiencing that this is not the case in their counties.


You hit the nail on the head Stacey! Thanks for helping me clarify my vent.

I'm in no way trying to say that all showing is bad. I'm trying to say that a growing problem is becoming the fact that it's not "survival of the fittest", it's "survival of the spendest"!!!!

I know that no matter how far down the line my kids were after the show they still had a sense of pride in the hard work they'd done. They still learned a lot from their projects. And, they still had a good time fraternizing with other kids in and around the show ring.

Now, that being said, IMO only, for those that pay more than market price for a wether, please help me to understand the rationale. I'm not trying to be quarrelsome or fececious. I'm honestly asking "what in the world is the end result for a sterile animal without the ability to reproduce?"

Once the testicals are removed that animal becomes a terminal animal. Whether it be a calf, hog, goat, alpaca, or whatever; it can no longer add a single thing to the gene pool so how in the world is it worth more than meat price unless we're buying a blue ribbon?


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Just like with breeding stock you have higher quality wethers. I don't look too much at genetics. I prefer something out of the Texas lines but once the jewels are off they aren't worth too.much to me. Unless I see where I can make my money back and then some I won't buy a goat. Hasn't failed me yet though I'm sure its coming. Like I said in a previous thread, I won't pay over a certain amount for a wether because it seems ridiculous. On wethers you have to look at top shape, muscle over all and how the carcass would rail. That is what I focus on


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> It really doesn't matter what the livestock is. Shows aren't always fair. Judges favor certain breeders. Saw tons of favortism in alpaca shows too. I used to find out which judges were judging a show and I only showed in front of certain judges and didn't waste my time with other shows.


I absolutely agree. I saw it in horses, and dogs. That is what I also did. I knew there were certain judges who would only place professionally handled dogs. Mine were owner bred, so I avoided those judges. I remember moving from AZ, my dog had placed 4th in her class (owner bred and handled) at a large national specialty and it was her first show. When I showed up in the ring in CA, my husband could hear people saying 'who's that I've never seen them' well she earned her points -won her class.
I agree 4h should be more about the kids and showmanship and it's unfortunate when politics are involved with kids. Working on a ranch about a decade ago, I saw kids that were from big family and always placed first regardless of the animal. Again in particular I wish that wasn't the case for kids at least.


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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

goatgirl132 said:


> and i must say iv veen under a judge who chose only the pretty girls no mater how their goat looked
> and iv had a friend Hes had this judge twice(Hes known of) that did this to.
> 
> i mean all the girls in the pretty blouses got picked serveral times even though their goat looked horrible. (because they know the judge... etc) my mom even asked me if i watedbto go off the traditional sbow shirt into a nice blouse and i said "no if Im unna win Im unna do it right and Im gunna look correct while doing it"


Good for you!


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

goatgirl132 said:


> and i must say iv veen under a judge who chose only the pretty girls no mater how their goat looked
> and iv had a friend Hes had this judge twice(Hes known of) that did this to.
> 
> i mean all the girls in the pretty blouses got picked serveral times even though their goat looked horrible. (because they know the judge... etc) my mom even asked me if i watedbto go off the traditional sbow shirt into a nice blouse and i said "no if Im unna win Im unna do it right and Im gunna look correct while doing it"


Good job!!! I'm the same way! I wear mt hair nice and put a ribbon on my pony tail... I wear makeup everyday so I do that like I usually would but not flashy tops or anything


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## goatgirl132 (Oct 18, 2012)

Dani-1995 said:


> Good job!!! I'm the same way! I wear mt hair nice and put a ribbon on my pony tail... I wear makeup everyday so I do that like I usually would but not flashy tops or anything


*high five*
oh and my ffa bow i should be getting in soon 

i dont wear make up 
theres so few people that dont go the traditional way any more! Grrrrr


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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

This is one of the reason why i won't do 4H out here. Now last year, for the dairy goats they used an actual judge, but were still using breeders for the meat goats. Why? I don't know. This is also the reason I'm quitting FFA. My leader won't even communicate with me to tell me what we are doing just because my family name isn't well known in my tight knit community. It really ticks me off. He never let's us know there's a meeting until the day of. I have to know things ahead of time so I can arrange for someone to pick me up afterward. Then, if I can't make it to a meeting he won't even tell me what we talked about. He expects me to get the info from the other kids. When I ask the other kids, the ignore me, literally. So, I'm pretty much done with them, as far as I'm concerned he can shove that 20$ fee for FFA I paid him to do nothing up his butt.


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

IHO, it ought to be considered a conflict of interest for FFA advisors to be breeders who sell show animals to their students. In most cases in our area, the teachers are the main providers of animals. They've figured out the way to scratch the neighboring ag teacher's back is to provide animals to the neighbor's students and buy projects for their kids from the neighbor.


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## MrKamir (Nov 2, 2009)

What is important is what the kids get out of raising these animals. My husband did FFA as a teenager. Same unfair stuff happened too. He has taught this farm-illiterate woman tons of stuff. I love raising farm animals and teaching my grandkids to love it too. Who would have ever thought that this city woman found her true calling.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

It was as Francismilker has pointed out so well during our son's high school baseball career. He was a pretty good pitcher but he knew two others on the team were much better.
His problem was the coaches & other parents obviously in a tight clique. They all had money, kids drove nice cars.
But he never quit playing because of it; it was his passion.


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

Dani-1995 said:


> Just like with breeding stock you have higher quality wethers. I don't look too much at genetics. I prefer something out of the Texas lines but once the jewels are off they aren't worth too.much to me. Unless I see where I can make my money back and then some I won't buy a goat. Hasn't failed me yet though I'm sure its coming. Like I said in a previous thread, I won't pay over a certain amount for a wether because it seems ridiculous. On wethers you have to look at top shape, muscle over all and how the carcass would rail. That is what I focus on


Dani-1995, 
Our ag teacher, in his desire to win, is coming down to Texas and spending as much as $2500 for wethers for a few of the choice kids with parents who can afford it. (This is all in the name of winning!!!!)

I have to admit, these are some mighty fine looking animals that look like army tanks in their muscular system. I just can't see spending over meat price for a terminal animal.


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## CantMiss (Mar 25, 2013)

So francis what you're saying is they have nicer goats and you're upset because they win? Now I agree that the price some people are willing to pay for a "meat" animal is amazing, but it's theirs to spend. Folks are going to buy the best they can with what money they have to spend. Unfortunately winning cannot be obtained solely through hard work and determination, no matter what aspect of life we dissect. 

As for show judges, they are giving you their opinion. Which, unfortunately, are sometimes biased. Doesn't matter if it's goats, dogs or cars.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I know it's a far cry from reality.

But why can't a market goat just be a market goat. Geesh lol Why can't kids take it as a learning experience, and not 'I gotta spend XX amount of $$ so I can WIN WIN WIN.' Everyone wants to win of course, but good grief. That's my biggest complaint. I dont' ever want my kids to feel that I have to go out and buy them $500+ market wether just so they can fit in. Realistically, I can NOT afford that. 
I am always reminding them, not to worry and just go out there and do their best.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

You know, I liked how it was in the old days of FFA. My kids did sheep but, it would work with goats too.

Their first year they were given a ewe and a wether lamb by their teacher. They were expected to raise those lambs, one to show as a breeder, the other for market. After fair they were expected to pay for the ewe lamb and a breeding for her out of their market lamb earnings. That put them on their way to building a small flock and maintaining it. They learned a lot.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I did ask earlier on but you didnt clarify until now, whether you were talking market wethers or breeding stock. I was basing my comments on breeding stock which should be more than market value. 

Show wethers, I do feel should be slightly higher than market value - but only slightly - and $2500 is certainly NOT slightly higher than market value! LOL

The only reason I say this is becuase I have sold show wethers and have sold show steers. 

The difference here is that I have spent several weeks and even up to several months in the case of show steers - to train them. Halter breaking them, desensitising, grooming etc. All that needs to be accounted for. So if I sold a wether for meat it would be $80 - 120 depending on size which is what I would get if I took that animal to the abbatoir. However, if I sold a show whether that I had been training, grooming etc. I put the price up to $150 - 200. I do not feel this is too large a variation from market value and I do need to be compensated for my time and effort in some small way. 

I like that idea goathiker.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I like that idea too.
I wish I wish I could do something like that with my school. We don't have an agriculture thing anymore  all we have is chickens. Some (few and far between) have animals and have classes and even less actually take their animals to shows.
*sigh*


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

That's a shame Piccolo, my kids are ages 6-14 and they attend the 2x a month meetings for the 4-H livestock club and love it. My youngest is technically too young to be a member of 4-H, but they still treat her like a 4-H member reguardless  She still gets to show since all the fairs have a novice market goat & showmanship class for the little kids.
My oldest has ADHD which affects her ability to learn/pay attention/etc. and she is not very social, so this really really helps build confidence.
My son who is almost 12 just loves showing, haha.
It gives them something to do during the summer months, since they are not into sports or other activities.

I love Goathiker's idea. That's sort of what we are doing. Got our kids a few does, put a good buck on them, and they raise their own 4-H goats.
When we sell the ones we don't keep at the end of summer, I usually have them buy something for the goats - grain or hay, and then the rest of the $$ is used to help get something for school & then they do get some spending $$ out of it for themselves. 
Of course, this is for does, they've not done a market animal yet.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

It is a shame, I think those kind of things are great to teach kids about animals and stuff like that. But what can ya do? :shrug:


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

keren said:


> I did ask earlier on but you didnt clarify until now, whether you were talking market wethers or breeding stock. I was basing my comments on breeding stock which should be more than market value.
> 
> Show wethers, I do feel should be slightly higher than market value - but only slightly - and $2500 is certainly NOT slightly higher than market value! LOL
> 
> ...


I couldn't disagree with your pricing suggestion between market wethers and show wethers. It started out that way when show goats come on the scene. Now that the cliques and niche' markets have developed it's not uncommon at all to see kids spending thousands.


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

CantMiss said:


> So francis what you're saying is they have nicer goats and you're upset because they win? Now I agree that the price some people are willing to pay for a "meat" animal is amazing, but it's theirs to spend. Folks are going to buy the best they can with what money they have to spend. Unfortunately winning cannot be obtained solely through hard work and determination, no matter what aspect of life we dissect.
> 
> As for show judges, they are giving you their opinion. Which, unfortunately, are sometimes biased. Doesn't matter if it's goats, dogs or cars.


NO! I'm not saying that at all. I started this rant based upon the favoritism, cliques, niche markets, and "good ol' boy" syndrome that has driven the price to the point it is now. By people going and spending $2500 for a show wether they have taken even the possibility away from mine, yours, or any other kid from winning if a sensible, practical amount is spent.

How can someone argue the practicality of someone spending $2500 for a non-reproducing animal? How can someone argue that point?

The bottom line is this: I was once told by a very wise person the given advice, "You have to get with the program or get out of the program."

I took their advice literally when it come to the show goat world and got out of it. Money was truly not a problem as my kids have been blessed with grandparents who are "spend stupid" over their grandkids. They woldn't have thought twice about spending $10,000 if the kids would have asked. I just know for a fact that they would'nt have learned the valuable experience with buying a blue ribbon that they learned from taking good care of a market ready animal and having fun at the show.

I actually seen a young pretty lady show up at the show once in a brand spanking new corvette, walk to a guy wearing a suit, kiss him on the cheek and say, "Hi dad, which one of these is mine?"...
The fellows reply was, "I'm not sure, I've never seen it."

A few minutes later, a goat jockey showed up, money changed hands, and the young lady was given a crash course on goat showing 101. 15 minutes later she walked away with a blue ribbon.

Now where's the reality in that?


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## caprine crazy (Jun 12, 2012)

I agree Goathiker. FFA has changed a lot since my grandparents were in it. FFA doesn't even stand for "Future Farmers of America" anymore. It's just a leadership organization. I really need to learn some leadership skills, but I'm not going to be depressed or mad all the way thru it. I can't even do anything that I enjoy in it, so why do it?


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## goatgirl132 (Oct 18, 2012)

i love the leadership part of ffa 
i learned that i can talk infront of (important) people and memorize things well.
Im also in wool judging 

I just dont agree with the animals part 
Theres way to much 
Let me buy an expencive animal and never work it and win. In all animals market or breed


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## CantMiss (Mar 25, 2013)

Francis I was not arguing that $2500 is practical. My argument is simply that some folks will spend as much as they need to win. Such is life.


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

It really comes down to individual people. Some judges are fair, others aren't...some are downright horrible. Its getting to know your particular scene and the MO for each judge and steering clear of the dirty ones. I've absolutely seen this in horse shows and in both 4H and FFA. FFA was the worst around here. It was very political, lots of "I know THAT guy and you don't." BS. The good thing here was that you could still hold your own with a good animal regardless of price. BIG winner? Nah...but kids did fine. Did the big winners have the most beefed out animals in the ring? Sure..but they were also from the handful of families that had a long, long reputation in the FFA community. At times it seemed rigged, but at the same time, they DID have the nicest animals. There were a few local businesses who pulled out of supporting the auctions, etc. when the grand champion steer was selling for over $10k at the county fair. They said it was doing the opposite of teaching kids, that it was presenting them with unrealistic expectations of farming, raising livestock and finances in general.

My mother and I helped volunteer for ringside assistance, etc. at local horse shows and we would bet each other about the class winners AS the horses rode into the ring based solely on the horse's build and the bling on the tack/clothing. We were right or close to right probably 85% of the time. And these were performance classes that were supposed to be judged on a pattern, not on how the horse was put together....but the really bulky ones were the preferred specimen. Lol. A pretty, popular color was even better. If your horse wasn't a stock horse you usually went straight to the bottom of the class. I've even seen horses buck or bolt in the pattern and still go top 5 because of looks. Luckily there were a few fair judges and you learned who they were quickly.


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

caprine crazy said:


> I agree Goathiker. FFA has changed a lot since my grandparents were in it. *FFA doesn't even stand for "Future Farmers of America" anymore*. It's just a leadership organization. I really need to learn some leadership skills, but I'm not going to be depressed or mad all the way thru it. I can't even do anything that I enjoy in it, so why do it?


You're correct! It stands for "Fathers Feeding Animals"!!! lol........


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## JenVise (Dec 7, 2012)

Just to add my 2 cent (whatever it's worth).. Last year my daughter competed in almost every show with 2 different very popular families in the goat world around here. Both the 2 biggest breeders in this and the surrounding counties. Of course they were almost always top 3. At one in particular show only the youngest of one of the families competed in showmanship. He lost his goat making the first turn in the ring. They had to take all of the kids out of the ring and shut down for about 15 minutes while 2 grown men chased and eventually caught the goat. The remainder of the of the show the boy had to drag the wether around the ring while it planted it's feet threw it's head around and screamed like the devil was after it. Dust flying everywhere!!!! And that my friends won him grand showmanship! Now that being said, it was a nice looking goat and did well in market class... And rightfully so. But this was showmanship... Not market class.... So I understand what is being said here and empathize with you. My daughter, who is 12 now, has a motto... She says "God will give me the judge I need to teach me the lessons I need to learn". She came up with that on her own after her very first show. And after every show she writes in a diary what the lesson from that show is. After this particular show her lesson was "Sometimes you have to kick a little dust to bring home a win" ...... Go figure!


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

JenVise said:


> Just to add my 2 cent (whatever it's worth).. Last year my daughter competed in almost every show with 2 different very popular families in the goat world around here. Both the 2 biggest breeders in this and the surrounding counties. Of course they were almost always top 3. At one in particular show only the youngest of one of the families competed in showmanship. He lost his goat making the first turn in the ring. They had to take all of the kids out of the ring and shut down for about 15 minutes while 2 grown men chased and eventually caught the goat. The remainder of the of the show the boy had to drag the wether around the ring while it planted it's feet threw it's head around and screamed like the devil was after it. Dust flying everywhere!!!! And that my friends won him grand showmanship! Now that being said, it was a nice looking goat and did well in market class... And rightfully so. But this was showmanship... Not market class.... So I understand what is being said here and empathize with you. My daughter, who is 12 now, has a motto... She says* "God will give me the judge I need to teach me the lessons I need to learn".* She came up with that on her own after her very first show. And after every show she writes in a diary what the lesson from that show is. After this particular show her lesson was "Sometimes you have to kick a little dust to bring home a win" ...... Go figure!


That is AWESOME!!!!! You should be very proud of her.


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## JenVise (Dec 7, 2012)

francismilker said:


> That is AWESOME!!!!! You should be very proud of her.


I couldn't be more proud!! She is growing up to be such a wonderful young lady! She has the best outlook on life of any person I've ever met. She is an inspiration to me, every day. I am blessed to have her to teach her younger brothers how to be a good christian young person...and that's hard in today's society.


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## llazykllamas (Dec 20, 2012)

This will never change!!! When you show ANYTHING you are asking for the judges opinion based on what else he/she is seeing that day and that time. Tomorrow you may get a different answer, under another judge you may get a different answer, in a different class you may get a different answer. These opinions are opinions only based on whatever the judge feels is most important. 

You will always have people who can and do spend tons of money on whatever. It's there money to spend how they want. I may not agree on their money-managment choices, but it is there choice.

Encourage your kids to excel in the the showmanship classes!!!! Those are based on what the kid has accomplished with the animal as opposed to the size of Mom and Dad's checkbook. Frankly, I couldn't care less what the kids get in the breeding classes - I am most happy with a good placing in a showmanship class where it doesn't matter what quality of the animal is, but what the kid has done with it.


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

llazykllamas said:


> This will never change!!! When you show ANYTHING you are asking for the judges opinion based on what else he/she is seeing that day and that time. Tomorrow you may get a different answer, under another judge you may get a different answer, in a different class you may get a different answer. These opinions are opinions only based on whatever the judge feels is most important.
> 
> You will always have people who can and do spend tons of money on whatever. It's there money to spend how they want. I may not agree on their money-managment choices, but it is there choice.
> 
> Encourage your kids to excel in the the showmanship classes!!!! *Those are based on what the kid has accomplished* with the animal as opposed to the size of Mom and Dad's checkbook. Frankly, I couldn't care less what the kids get in the breeding classes - I am most happy with a good placing in a showmanship class where it doesn't matter what quality of the animal is, but what the kid has done with it.


Not in my county it's not! The same three young folks have won showmanship spring and fall for the past 5 years at my local show. Doesn't matter who comes on the scene. They're picked before they enter. No one else is given a second look. The judge is the same for showmanship and the actual show.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I think at the fairs we've been too the judges have been very fair in showmanship. BUT, there was one fair last year where the judge told my son that he was setting his doe up wrong, and I don't understand how? She was set up like other does, nobody ever told him in any other show he was setting her up wrong. I remember sharing pictures here from that show and nobody could understand how he was setting her up wrong.

Otherwise, it's mostly been the older kids in each showmanship class that get it, but they are the more knowledgeable ones. 
My oldest daughter is trying her best, but she has ADHD, and no way she can compete with the kids in her classes <she's 14> on the knowledge part. As for handling she does just fine, and always looks and smiles at the judge, even though she is extremely shy.
The other two do fine, my youngest is only 6 so she'll learn with time how to answer some of the questions. But any question the judges asked her last year, she had no trouble answering. In fact, she could remember her goats birthday easily, but couldn't remember her own LOL!!


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## goatgirl132 (Oct 18, 2012)

I think 4h ffa and showing will help her get over her shyness. 

I usd to be extremely shy and Wouldent talk to anyone! Now people are like ill pay you to shup up.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree, 4-H in general helped me not be so shy. I used to be the really shy kid that sat in the corner but now I'm way outgoing. 

I started doing 4-H meetings then moved into county level stuff when I was 13 or 14. I taught day camp programs with the 4-H agents help and really got comfortable with people. I started going on district retreats and state 4-H congress. I would check into it and see if your 4-H offers anything like that. If the cost of these things are a problem you can fund raise like our club does. We send 5-7 teens to teen retreat and congress every year. Its so much fun! Presentations are good too but not nearly the most fun thing 4-H offers.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks for that info Dani! I am so glad it has helped you mature into such a social person. I always have such high respect for you and your opinions.
I know there are different teen retreats, camps, etc. but they definitely are costly  I will have to ask the 4-H leader if they ever do fund raiser type things to help the kids who can't afford the fees. 
We just always have a lot of expenses this time of year, and then the summer fairs & all the expenses with that <packing a cooler for all day, gas, fair fees, etc.>. Plus I'd really like to try and get them to the state fair this year if their goats do decently at the summer fairs. I hear State fair is a great experience and if they liked it, they'd definitely want to work towards going every year I am sure 

I don't let the top breeders/competitors intimidate us. Our lil mutt bred goats <as I call them LOL> have held their own at the shows. I admit, I am worried about the wethers this year, but it's their first year doing them. 
My son's wether lacks everything except height lol But he's got a dairy appearance to him. I'm almost wondering if we should possibly keep one of the other boys as a 2nd wether. I won't talk my son out of showing the wether he wants, he loves him too much.


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## goatgirl132 (Oct 18, 2012)

If he wants to show the Wether I'd say let him  
my first wether lacked everything except wildness lol


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

goatgirl132 said:


> If he wants to show the Wether I'd say let him
> my first wether lacked everything except wildness lol


Same here!! He was crazy as could be.

I wouldn't worry too much about the wethers for first year. As long as they are healthy, clean and well groomed they'll be fine. My parents didn't put much into wethers until I knew I liked them and did my home work.... lots and lots of homework


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I too say let him show the wether, Sometimes it is not you place but how you feel you did and how well you and the goat work together, gaining that confidence.

 Gaining confidence is so important. My daughter was SO shy I cannot even begin to tell you. If someone came up to talk to me or her dad, and they even so much as looked at her she would hide behind us. 
 With 4H she learned to speak and learned to speak with confidence. The more she showed the more she had to talk to the judges and she just snapped out of it. No matter if she knew the answer to the question the judges asked, she was so quite you could not hear her, so she would get mad that they said she did not know the answer. She finally got it, matter of fact she went on to be the Fair Queen and now almost a teacher.

Francismilker- just because the same kids always will does not mean they did not deserve it. We heard for years that my daughter should not be able to win Showmanship every year like she was (after she figured out the shy thing). She won every year and they were mad. Now in our shows, the judge asks questions so if you cannot hear the answers that ALL the kids give you really have to only watch the showing part, but that is only half the contest in my opinion.

 My daughter only did Cashmere goats as her project but she did show about all the other animals for people except like Chickens. She won reserve Champion her second to last in the Round Robin and Grand Champion her last year. Some kids are a natural and others it takes a little extra work.

 I guess the other thing you can say that she learned about 4H, is how political it is. Pretty sad when it is that bad and it is not about learning and the kids doing it, it is all about hiring fitters and some parents are allowed to get the animal for show where others are not, it is all in the name and that my friends is sad.


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## llazykllamas (Dec 20, 2012)

_I think at the fairs we've been too the judges have been very fair in showmanship. BUT, there was one fair last year where the judge told my son that he was setting his doe up wrong, and I don't understand how?_

He should have asked the judge right after the class what he had done wrong if the reasons weren't explained. Most of the judges for 4-H are very much for helping the kids and will take the time to explain what they are looking for if the kids ask. For a question like that, I would have had him go with the goat and ask right after the class - if you wait too many classes, the judge may not remember the incident. I would also take the goat, may help the judge remember what he did, and he would be able to show him what specifically he was looking for. For a more general question such as how can I trim my goat better, I would have them wait until after the show and then ask if the judge has time to discuss trimming with them.

I know in a particularly large, competitive class last year, my daughter ended up 4th(out of about 20+ kids). The judge came around to each kid just before he announced the class and told her she had been his first place all along, but ONCE when he moved along the line she did not move to the other side quick enough - he had caught her off-guard... it happens.

Also, if a judge is judging throughout the day - other classes, they often have a good idea of who is a good showman and who is not and base the showmanship class on what has already been seen of the competitors. I tell my kids that EVERY class should be considered a showmanship class. Personally, it ticks me off when the showmanship classes are first, and then the winner goes on to show sloppily the rest of the day.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

llazykllamas said:


> _I think at the fairs we've been too the judges have been very fair in showmanship. BUT, there was one fair last year where the judge told my son that he was setting his doe up wrong, and I don't understand how?_
> 
> He should have asked the judge right after the class what he had done wrong if the reasons weren't explained. Most of the judges for 4-H are very much for helping the kids and will take the time to explain what they are looking for if the kids ask. For a question like that, I would have had him go with the goat and ask right after the class - if you wait too many classes, the judge may not remember the incident. I would also take the goat, may help the judge remember what he did, and he would be able to show him what specifically he was looking for. For a more general question such as how can I trim my goat better, I would have them wait until after the show and then ask if the judge has time to discuss trimming with them.
> 
> ...


My son didn't have time to ask  It was a busy show, lasted about 5-6 hours. There were so many kids in his showmanship class, they had to divide it up into 2 classes. 
Nobody else told him he was setting his goat up wrong, and they went to several fairs last year. He was a nice judge, but I honestly hope they bring a fresh face into the mix next year. It's nice to have different judges and see the different opinions/etc.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

I have to say that there are times when judges are pulling the "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" routine. Or the friend card. However, in general I would have to say that is not the case in most circumstances. A serious judge doesn't want a bad reputation and risk not getting more jobs.

In the cases a lot of you are referring to where the same kids are winning every show every weekend....couldn't that be because they have the best animals? It's all the same kids and all the same animals every weekend. For the most part. In my opinion, if the same kids are winning under different judges consistently, those must be the best animals, the best fed and presented, and probably the best showmen. It's not a conspiracy.

As for the times where winners and judges are seen visiting... that doesn't mean they are friends and the whole thing was set up. It's not uncommon for a judge to talk to the winning families and ask where their stock came from. If they bred them or who they bought them from. It's not even unusual for a judge to build a relationship with the family that's breeding their own and do business with them later on. It's not cheating, it's marketing and networking. 

Don't make assumptions because you see 2 people talking. And don't be intimidated. You can talk to these people too. You might learn something and find a new customer or breeder to work with. You might even find a mentor to help improve your own program or showmanship, learn how to feed your animals better, or who knows....make a new friend.


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## Rubystargoats (Jul 6, 2012)

Wow...I'm glad I never did a market animal!!! I did Dairy goat 4-H, and the people in charge (at least in my area - WA state) were fantastic. I doubt I spent more than breeding fees to get most of the animals I have now. In fact my foundation doe didn't hardly cost me a dime, because she was the product of a 'buck grant' breeding on a doeling I got in trade for a buckling born to my first Nubian (who was a trade for a kid who was far less in value than the doe I got!!) for a $25 breeding fee! And she is now a 1*M with around 7,000 of milk (on record), a 91 linear appraisal score and two legs towards a GCH...plus all of her offspring. If it weren't for all the great breeders and judges - who knew most of us by name (and expected us to put out quality) I would not be anywhere close to where I am now! And that doesn't even touch on how I got the Guernsey...
Wow...I'm glad I was in WA state...with dairy goats...


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

BCG said:


> I have to say that there are times when judges are pulling the "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" routine. Or the friend card. However, in general I would have to say that is not the case in most circumstances. A serious judge doesn't want a bad reputation and risk not getting more jobs.
> 
> In the cases a lot of you are referring to where the same kids are winning every show every weekend....couldn't that be because they have the best animals? It's all the same kids and all the same animals every weekend. For the most part. In my opinion, if the same kids are winning under different judges consistently, those must be the best animals, the best fed and presented, and probably the best showmen. It's not a conspiracy.
> 
> ...


I agree!!! When an animal consistently wins and a child consistently win then they must be doing something right.

Judges are usually producers too and just want to better their own herds. I prefer not to talk to the judge until the show is over... I once saw a great judge decline conversation with someone before a show since he would be judging that persons animals. After the show was over the judge went to supper with them. I think judges are thought of as only judges... they are just people with an opinion.


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

Dani-1995 said:


> I agree!!! When an animal consistently wins and a child consistently win then they must be doing something right.
> 
> Judges are usually producers too and just want to better their own herds. I prefer not to talk to the judge until the show is over... I once saw a great judge decline conversation with someone before a show since he would be judging that persons animals. After the show was over the judge went to supper with them. I think judges are thought of as only judges... they are just people with an opinion.


So you guys don't think it a conflict of interest or slicing the pie a little too thin if a judge fraternizes with people before or after the show? I'd personally like to see the judge be picked out of the crowd or drawn out a hat before I see people know who the judge is beforehand. Many have mentioned in this thread that there's certain judges they won't show under. It's obviously because that judge has a reputation of being biased.

Should a judge be able to even judge a show that he/she has had previous business deals with prospective showers?


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Yes they should be allowed to judge. You can't stop people from judging. They are just people that have to deal with other producers to better their own herds. If you look at it this way, once you get up to a certain level. Say a state fair show. Alot of the kids will likely know the judge, if you have a good judge it won't matter. The judges want to.be friends with other producers so as a.judge you are bound to judge goats and even kids you know. Its up to the judge to make the right desiscion and pick the deserving goat and kid.

I plan to become a judge once I'm down showing. If I get to the level I plan [ABGA ], then I will have friends showing under me. Doesn't mean they will win though!


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## goatgirl132 (Oct 18, 2012)

Theres alot of judges out there who are totally fair. 
But theres lots who pick the pretty girls, or kids theyv sold to


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## goatgirl132 (Oct 18, 2012)

And no i really dont think if they have kids they sold to in the ring thy shouldent be able to judge


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Dani-1995 said:


> I plan to become a judge once I'm down showing. If I get to the level I plan [ABGA ], then I will have friends showing under me. Doesn't mean they will win though!


Nice! I think you will be a great judge, Dani. :cowboy:


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Another thing to consider is that we only talk about the bad judges? People in general talk more about negative experiences than positive. I think most judges do what they feel is right and we.only talk about the ones we don't like. Maybe we should dwell on the positive judges more than negative?

Its true, not everyone will be happy with the judge. Sometimes we just need to stop dwelling on the bad. I'm very guilty of it too and I need to focus on being positive.


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> Nice! I think you will be a great judge, Dani. :cowboy:


Thank you! I have alot of learning to do but hopefully I can do it... I love doing livestock judging in 4h already so maybe


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

francismilker said:


> So you guys don't think it a conflict of interest or slicing the pie a little too thin if a judge fraternizes with people before or after the show? I'd personally like to see the judge be picked out of the crowd or drawn out a hat before I see people know who the judge is beforehand. Many have mentioned in this thread that there's certain judges they won't show under. It's obviously because that judge has a reputation of being biased.
> 
> Should a judge be able to even judge a show that he/she has had previous business deals with prospective showers?


I don't see a problem with it at all. You would be hard pressed to find a judge who didn't know anyone. In fact, a judge who didn't know anyone in the industry could not possibly be qualified to judge a show. It's not possible to be knowledgeable in the show ring without knowing anyone.

As for not showing under certain judges...there is more than 1 reason for this. For example, we raise goats and sheep that are trendy with pretty profiles and powerful square tops. If we know the judge raises framey pretty stock, our animals will more than likely not do well under them and we will more than likely choose to not attend the show. Not because we don't like the judge, but because we know the judge doesn't like our type of stock. Everyone has their own taste, and if you have that information, you can make an educated decision on whether or not to attend a show.

And finally... I do not believe a judge should judge their own stock. Huge conflict of interest.


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## Ponder (Sep 26, 2012)

BCG said:


> I don't see a problem with it at all. You would be hard pressed to find a judge who didn't know anyone. In fact, a judge who didn't know anyone in the industry could not possibly be qualified to judge a show. It's not possible to be knowledgeable in the show ring without knowing anyone.
> 
> As for not showing under certain judges...there is more than 1 reason for this. For example, we raise goats and sheep that are trendy with pretty profiles and powerful square tops. If we know the judge raises framey pretty stock, our animals will more than likely not do well under them and we will more than likely choose to not attend the show. Not because we don't like the judge, but because we know the judge doesn't like our type of stock. Everyone has their own taste, and if you have that information, you can make an educated decision on whether or not to attend a show.
> 
> And finally... I do not believe a judge should judge their own stock. Huge conflict of interest.


I'd like to throw my 2 cents in for what its worth. I show horses professionally in a very small section of the horse industry, much like the goat industry. Everyone knows everyone. And if you don't, you're new. That said, it looks bad to see a judge conversing with exhibitors before or during the show w/o a show steward present (show stewards in our industry enforce the rules and are supposed to ensure that everything is fair). Yes, we may all know the judge. Shoot, we probably have their cell phone number or are friends on facebook but it looks bad to others to be talking and laughing before/during the show. Especially if that judge then pins you first.

A judge's actions before, during, and immediately after a show should be transparent so that exhibitors can not come to the assumption that there is dirty judging occuring. It happens. We all know it does. Its just part of the animal industry. But its the pressumption that prevents new people from participating and causes "old" people to leave the ring. We get tired of it.

As a horse exhibitor, I have actually started to value the opinion of judges from outside our breed industry more than the judges who train or breed within our industry. Judges from outside the industry have the knowledge of the breed standard but do not have the investment into the breed to scew their opinion or their intentions. They have "no horse in this race" so to speak, so they are going to pick the best conformed animal in the ring regardless of handler or bloodline.

Regardless, there will always be politics and trends that come and go in the show ring. Whenever there is money involved, people will do whatever it takes to win. Some people choose to take the high road and others don't.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Ponder, I agree for the most part. However, I don't want to discourage kids and parents from questioning judges on how to improve their project or understand the critique they received. After the show is the only opportunity you have unless you do have the judges phone number. 

Also, there was a comment on this thread about seeing a judge talking with a competitor weeks later and that meant to them that they had cheated. That's just an assumption on their part. I just wanted to point out the positive side of networking and meeting people, wether they are a judge or not. It's a good way to learn.


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## Ponder (Sep 26, 2012)

BCG said:


> Ponder, I agree for the most part. However, I don't want to discourage kids and parents from questioning judges on how to improve their project or understand the critique they received. After the show is the only opportunity you have unless you do have the judges phone number.
> 
> Also, there was a comment on this thread about seeing a judge talking with a competitor weeks later and that meant to them that they had cheated. That's just an assumption on their part. I just wanted to point out the positive side of networking and meeting people, wether they are a judge or not. It's a good way to learn.


I totally agree. You should be able to approach a judge and ask them their honest opinion on your animal. That's how we all learn. But the judge shouldn't be back in the pens talking to exhibitors. It should be after that exhibitor and their animals are finished showing, in the ring, or near the office. In the open where anyone can see or over hear the conversation. Personal conversations with judges about sales or other business transactions should take place off the show grounds after the show is completed. But that's just my opinion. And any judge worth their weight will realize that they are being watched and should conduct themselves in the utmost professional behavior in and out of the ring during the show.

What I found for most cases of sour grapes though is a severe case of barn blindness. We're all guilty of it. A judge can only judge what is in front of them at that specific time. You may have the better animal but its having an off day. And if your competition's animal is on and showing well, sometimes the better animal gets beat because another animal just had a better day in the ring. It happens to all of us and no one is unbeatable. That's what makes showing animals fun!


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## firelight27 (Apr 25, 2009)

I agree with Ponder about trends. If the breed standard is always the same, animals that most closely resemble that standard should be at the top...however, I have absolutely seen popularity trends, in much the same way that you see fashion trends in the show pen (at least in western riding with the horses.) I saw it in lambs too. One year it was super bulky, wide lambs...the next it was refined, showy lambs. If you really want to stay on top of it, you have to be two steps ahead through your research. However, since trends come and go, its not worth it IMO to change what you have every time a new one hits if you know what you want and what is correct...stick to it.


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## BCG (Jun 30, 2012)

Ponder....I completely agree.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

At the ABGA shows I've been to, I haven't seen the judges fraternize with the competitors much. They pretty much hang around the secretaries table unless they are going to the bathroom. Lunch time they may engage in some small talk as they have their hamburger, but it's not necessarily about goats and like Ponder said, it's within ear shot of everybody. ABGA shows are usually sponsored by a couple of breeders together and they line up the judges. Of course they are going to pick judges they have done well with in the past if they are available. I think a lot of show sponsors pick a totally different type of judge for each day. Most shows are two days. Usually one judge likes "pretty" and the other more "meat". A generalization, but often close. Like I said in an earlier post, we are in the Northwest and most of the judges come from Texas or some other state back East and or South...


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## Dani-1995 (Mar 11, 2011)

Tenacross said:


> At the ABGA shows I've been to, I haven't seen the judges fraternize with the competitors much. They pretty much hang around the secretaries table unless they are going to the bathroom. Lunch time they may engage in some small talk as they have their hamburger, but it's not necessarily about goats and like Ponder said, it's within ear shot of everybody. ABGA shows are usually sponsored by a couple of breeders together and they line up the judges. Of course they are going to pick judges they have done well with in the past if they are available. I think a lot of show sponsors pick a totally different type of judge for each day. Most shows are two days. Usually one judge likes "pretty" and the other more "meat". A generalization, but often close. Like I said in an earlier post, we are in the Northwest and most of the judges come from Texas or some other state back East and or South...


I've had the same observations at ABGA shows. I know judges will eat supper with competitors after the show is over but they like having friends in goats too so it doesn't bother me . I have tons of friends with goats and I'm sure should I ever judge they will show under me, they may or may not win. Depends on who has the best animal.


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## francismilker (Oct 22, 2011)

This has really been a good discussion thread about show goats and I'm proud it hasn't turned nasty or bitter. I appreciate all angles and viewpoints and as well thank all of you for bringing to light some things that I hadn't previously thought of. Thanks again.


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