# lets talk roots



## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Does any one feed a root base diet to their goats or sheep? 

I have been doing reading on root diet for goats..to replace or at least decrease grain feeding. We all know grain is not a goats natural diet, but a necessary convenience. I want to try to back away from grain feeding if I can..but I need to learn more about it....One article suggested that you can not go grain free if the goat has been raised on grain...that the rumen has ben changed...Im not buying that but I wanted to get more input...most popular roots are carrots, turnips and beets...of course Im thinking Turnips will make the milk taste funny...other choices people feed are fodder beets, rutabagas, mangels, carrots, parsnips, and potatoes 

My husband asked why not just feed chafehay and grass hay and no grain at all..but I think they need more, at least the milkers do. we already feed as treats, fruit and some veggies..they love carrots which we buy a lot of...but garden time is upon us and I would love to add veggies for the goats and sheep
as well as our meat rabbits  so here we go...whats your thoughts...opcorn:


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Totally following!

I'm trying to figure out what to grow to feed my goats besides hay in the winter ( I don't feed grain)

Kale is great for goats, they love it late fall and going into winter. It lasts for quite awhile just 'being' in the garden and is easy to grow.
My girls also LOVE pumpkins! Like, totally devour them, run-over-the-human-to-get-it type love :lol:
And leaves. I gathered maple leaves last fall and give them to the goaties in the winter. They love it 
All winter they also get herbs in their water, I think it definitely helps keep them healthy, immune systems up and mineral levels up as well. Oh, and molasses...can't forget the molasses!

I believe raising goats on grain will change their rumen...just like giving dewormers (chemical, not herbal) kills the immune system (because the immune system is in the gut). But, I don't think that a goat raised on grain can't revert back to a health gut that will handle natural forages.

I would love to hear what other folks do! And would like to implement some more ideas as well.


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## MoonShadow (Mar 1, 2015)

I don't think it would be a bad thing at all, as long as the milkers where getting what they needed. I had two pygmy wethers who for 13 years who didn't eat anything other then hay, grass, and assorted vegetables and fruit, they where always super healthy(the healthy-est of any goat I've ever had actually). The goats I have now(wethers, does,and a buck) do from time to time get grain but they too are primarily eating grass, hay, veggies and fruit and they are all doing very well and are all very healthy. Their favorite fruits/veggies are beets, carrots, apples, pumpkin, watermelon, lemons and oranges. They are spoiled or at least I think they are haha.;-)


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

What is natural for a goat anymore? This I never get. Goats have been domesticated for over 6000 years and the ancient Romans hand collected baskets of seeds and nuts for winter feeding as well as dried fodder. Haven't you ever watched your goats walk across a field selectively sniping off the grass heads as they go? That's also grain. 

That said yes, I am learning about vegetable feeding from people who actually have done it from antiquity. The Ukrainians have been teaching me an incredible amount. Vegetable feeding involves everything in its time. There's a time for carrots (late pregnancy and while milking) a time for pumpkins and squash (fall and early winter) a time for leafy vegetables (early spring) a time for beets, etc. 

I don't know enough to teach yet, give me some more time :lol:


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

I think what means natural for goats is not a diet based around grain but a diet based around forage and have grain here and there. i.e. grass heads, treats, or maybe if they need it.

Then again, we need to start defining what we mean by grain.

But another part of this story is, goats are being bred to perform on grain, to need grain. Not being selected to perform, thrive on a (I'll use cheaper here) cheaper, easier to get diet of grasses, forages, etc.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

The other part is that not many people have the time and storage to do what would need to be done for large herd. Standing in a field with rock and a basket stripping grass seed heads seems kind of time consuming :lol:


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

:lol: :lol:^^


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> What is natural for a goat anymore? This I never get.


well at one point in history they ate a natural diet,after all in the beginning they were made to eat a certain way and we have indeed changed that, but doesn't take away the fact that there was a natural way and still can be...just as dogs were not made to eat kibbles....what I find interesting in researching this is there is SO LITTLE OUT THERE lol...and much of what I read is copy and paste ..word from word :GAAH:
Makes sense to feed what grows during certain times of year...fall foods during fall ect....and feed for need, like carrots and celery for a goat with milk fever...I am absolutely planting roots and greens for us and our animals...Just want to plant smart : )


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I know a lady near me that has 25 goats. In that herd are 5 bucks. She used to use grain and hay etc..., but now she just feeds Chaffhaye and loose minerals... She had 6 goats in milk, 4 of which have almost been milking for 3 years, the other 2 just short 2 years I think... I actually didn't grain my girls this pregnancy, but just fed alfalfa grass hay, and they did great. I just started them back up on Chaffhaye and they love it and just recently started them back on grain, since I only have 1 more to deliver... I think we over think things too much sometimes. A goat can live a healthy life without grain. That's just my opinion though..., but mine all did great without grain.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Most of what i read were folks feeding root diet to get through winter months when browse is scarce. I agree we might over think it but then again..i over think everything lol


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

My Nigerian Dwarves usually just get hay, and Alfalfa pellets. I adjust the amount of Alfalfa Pellets based on the quality of hay they are getting. I do give grain to lactating does, and my growing Mini Mancha gets grain because she is a twig. :lol: I'd be interested in alternatives as well. Always open to learning!


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

happybleats said:


> Most of what i read were folks feeding root diet to get through winter months when browse is scarce. I agree we might over think it but then again..i over think everything lol


You are not alone.... Trust me I over think things all the time I was just amazed that for the last 2 years this lady has fed nothing but Chaffhaye.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Nope, not alone! Overthinking things is sadly one of my weaker qualities


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

It definitely would add vitamins during the dark winter months. I'm going to try to explain what I meant about a natural diet because people seem to think that there is a perfect wild diet for goats and that simply isn't true. 

The first 2 domesticated animals were dogs and goats. Goats are unique above all other domestic animals because they sprang from different types of wild goats all over the world almost simultaneously. Even among ancient man long before the invention of writing, news traveled fast and what some hardy person had discovered was a break through in lifestyle. 
During that time in our history women would give birth to a child and would breast feed that child until their 4th year. If another child was born before the first was weaned, he was normally killed to ensure the survival of the older child. It seems harsh but remember, we're talking about a time period when raising a child to adulthood was a real accomplishment, when the infant mortality rate was incredibly high, and the average life expectancy was 35 to 40 years. 
Now, we aren't sure what happened for sure but, we suspect a worldwide climate change, a large volcanic explosion perhaps, caused a summer of of famine. As the women starved and watched their children grow weak from lack of milk, one of them convinced the men of their tribe to catch a nursing female of the small adaptable grazer, the only thing staying healthy during the famine, to feed her son. Not just once, but, everywhere, all over the settled world. These animals of course were already loosely herded by the hunters at this time. 

Just like the dogs before them the young of the grazers figured out that man protected them, fed them tasty scraps, and gave them security in return for their loyalty. Or more accurately, woman, who pampered the goat in return for her healthy child. 

Is this the time period you want to go back to for your "natural diet" the time of nomadic hunter/gatherers? 
Perhaps early biblical times in the time of Abraham when the boys were charged with herding the goats and sheep to common public areas to graze while men and women planted, preserved, and stored for the winter?
Maybe the time of Romans when goats were owned only by the elite and fed like royalty and buried with honors and grave goods among the masters, their slaves, and dogs? (These were LaMancha goats by the way)

So you have a big chunk of history from the time goats started living with man until now. All but one of the ancient wild goats that were domesticated are extinct. The Ibex is the ancestor of Boer and Nubian goats. The Swiss Rock goat is long gone, The ancestor of the Pygmy and Nigerian has yet to be discovered as has the ancestor of the Roman earless goats that later were found again in Spain. We know there were several maternal lines with a wide diversity of genes. 
During all the thousands of years that goats have lived with man they shared one talent with the dog... They adapted to eat our scraps and browse where ever we lead them. 

You bring up the dog and kibble but, kibble has only been around for 100 years... Dogs for much much longer. Their ancestor too is extinct. The small Red Wolf that was pushed out existence long ago. The gray wolf is a relative, as is the coyote and the Dingo. The dog developed the ability to do something none of those other species can do though... They can digest starch. 

So, while you can develop a more natural diet for a goat, you can not feed them as they would eat in the wild. The goat as it exists today has been turned loose to go feral and adapt to other areas at great cost of life for them. They have not however, ever been truly wild. 
They have spent thousands of years following man, adapting to new places, and new ways of living. The animal that lives on Manioc in Africa, Sweet potato in New Guinea, herbs in Switzerland, and brush in America. Along with their counterpart that lives on potatoes and milk in Ireland, bones, hide, and whatever they catch in Africa, the finest ground meat in England, and whatever the people are eating in America.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Well goathiker, I would gladly take the job of wandering with the local goats, leading them around like Peter the Goat Herder.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

So would I, it would be a blast... Right up until the first Cougar showed up :lol:


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

Very true....


I could be a full time goat Herder, part time LGD trainer, and firearm enthusiast....


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

ok Jill...I would have to say, you are a over thinker too :lol:..

so lets just say.....a no grain diet or roots diet and kick the word natural out of the equations...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Aw, I love Anthropology, history, Paleoarcheology, Philosophy, etc. I squirrel away information everywhere I find it. 

The history of the goat is why everyone can feed them differently according to their means and the animals will still thrive. 

What I plan to do is plant things that we will use anyway but much more than we need and plenty of things that will store well either as is or dried. Peas can be used for people, the vines dried for goats. Same with corn, yams, etc. Squash, pumpkins, zucchini, cabbage, etc all store well as is. Root vegetables can stay in the ground until the first frost threatens and then do fine in cool dark place. Carrots must be stored in sand but, that is easy enough and the sand can be reused year by year. Many herb types can be dried and leafy greens fed as grown throughout the summer and fall, some can be frozen successfully. Things from the wild, rose hips, acorns, maple keys, etc.
A base diet of alfalfa and clover when greens aren't available and tweak from there.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

you are a power house of information Jill....you Always impress me with tit bits!! ^^ Now Im excited...we have our garden spot all picked out...and a plan of action...we planned to do much the same...plant what we eat plus some...plus I don't know why but folks around here LOVE THEIR GREENS lol..but even they can only eat so much lol so bartering for or buying their abundance will help as well... I want to also figure out a root cellar...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Here Cathy https://projectchesapeake.wordpress.com/2013/01/15/five-cheap-root-cellars-you-can-build/


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

thanks Jill : )


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

When you dig your cellar keep in mind where your septic drain field is :lol:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I don't believe that 'once they have been on grain' crap either. I got sick of feeding grain too and yeah they all went on strike and lost weight but they were dry and open so I told them to suck it up and they did! Now we will see if that still holds true when they kid and have to support them but right now I'm very happy with how they look.......and since I came up with this master plan right before breeding I'm sure I'm toning to have a lot of singles but might work out well for them getting used to no grain anyways


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Don't believe the "your goats will die" if there's an apple tree or 5 in their pasture either. My goats know just when the apples are starting to fall and run to see how many they can get first thing every morning. :lol:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Honestly I don't believe much lol these are seriously odd creatures! There's been debates on a group I'm part of on fb about acorns. Everyone's opinion is don't let them eat them it will kill them. Well I've had horses sick from them and cows and every fall that's pretty much what my goats live off of and they have never even had clumpy poop over it. Actually that's normally when they look the best!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Acorns are one of things that many people store for their goats.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

But they will kill them! Lol but no since I now keep the does penned during the fall because that's when I breed them, and I have more bucks then I need I've been thinking about going out with the kids and getting acorns for them. They still have a lot of oak trees in the pen but why not get them more! 
Gabby, the lamancha I'm not sure how old she is, she has her adult teeth when I bought her in 2010, but I don't breed her any more and so she stays out of the pen and she got down right fat this fall


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## MylieD (Sep 16, 2013)

Interesting thread. I have given mine fruit on occasion but not many vegetables. We're doing a big garden so I'll see what they like.


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## Olliehaven (Jan 25, 2016)

So the amount of information on this post has officially blown my mind lol I am going to follow this and read it again so I can process better. I really like the idea of giving my goats more variety of what they eat. I already have it planned out to plant them certain things that they can eat at will. I have heard herbs are great for them but I don't know what kinds.


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## lilaalil (Sep 5, 2014)

Very interesting thread! How do you get your goats to try new things? Some of mine have been so picky... won't touch carrots, beets, pumpkin, or any of the yummy, nutritious things I offer them. And then I had one that would eat anything... do you have to start offering them variety when they are very young?

I've heard that pumpkin seeds are high in copper and help fight parasites, but 3 out of 4 of my goats wouldn't touch them.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I think that's all part of this... Why would cows and horses get sick off a perfectly natural food product, why wouldn't they either be okay with them or avoid them? Obviously, they must have the instinct to forage for them or why would they be picking through the oak leaves? 

Horses and cows though. They are the rich man's livestock. The people who have a lot of land and the means and equipment to feed them are the people who own them. Horses in particular have been moved to a completely controlled diet but, cattle have too. They are worth so much that no one just leaves them to fend for themselves. 
Goats on the other hand have always been available to just about everyone. They can eat just about anything. 
BUT, as we keep moving toward a more and more controlled diet, are they also going to lose their ability to adapt to their living conditions? I've already seen it in my own lifetime. Now days there are many goats out there who haven't got a clue about browsing, if they can avoid it they will. You literally have to starve them to get them out in the field. Since they have not been raised browsing so that they can watch their mom, they will eat even the most poisonous stuff out there.


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Olliehaven said:


> I have heard herbs are great for them but I don't know what kinds.


Yes! Herbs are great for them.

And you can give basically any herb you got. Just some not when they're pregnant. i.e. Lavender or wormwood.
But red raspberry is GREAT for when they're pregnant.

If you are just starting with herbs, I'm assuming you have more basic herbs like oregano, parsley, etc. All those can be given to goats and after they get used to the taste they LOVE them.

Goathiker, love your above post! It's SO TRUE.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Fascinating thread! Following with great interest!


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I know what you mean Jill...Clarabelle will not eat anything new without much ado :lol: She fits the bill for one who'd starve to death while awaiting hay!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

my husbands says we spoil the nature out of them lol..


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lol I go threw this with every new goat. They watch the others walk off and they stay by the feeder and keep checking it. I've had them go as long as a week without eating, they met their match on hard heads lol even the ones I've had for ever we have arguments when it comes to anything new, last year they didn't like the weeds that was in the hay, they got over that one too. So far the only thing they seriously would rather die then eat was some teff grass hay.
The acorns and the goats I just always figured goats processed things different and that's why they never got sick over them. We don't really pamper the cows, we don't turn them out and never look at them again or anything but we mostly let them do their own thing and feed when we have to


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

But, we all know that range cows are so much hardier than dairy cows. Can you imagine trying to turn out one of the Holsteins from the confinement dairies in my area? The darn things can't even walk 1/2 a mile without going lame :lol:


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Now arguably, your kids are going to grow a bit slower if feed only browse without enough greens and legumes in their diet. I don't think it would be cheating to offer natural whole oats, sunflower seeds, and dried peas in small amounts to those who need them. All of those things are the same as they have been since the beginning of time and were things that even ancient man would have gathered. 

Herb types that would dry well would be parsley, stinging nettle, mint, cress, day lilies, dill weed, etc. 
Thistle seed could be gathered pretty easy. 
I know where there's a wild Filbert tree but, I'd have to beat the squirrels to it :lol:
I have a wild apple tree with primitive tiny hard apples on it. They're about the size of large cherries :lol:
Berry leaves of many kinds can be dried.
Pine tips would keep well in the cold.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

goathiker said:


> But, we all know that range cows are so much hardier than dairy cows. Can you imagine trying to turn out one of the Holsteins from the confinement dairies in my area? The darn things can't even walk 1/2 a mile without going lame :lol:


I don't know why that made me laugh so much, it really shouldn't have, but it did :lol:


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Well sadly there are beef cows like that too! We bought a bull and they had him in a feed lot after weaning. I kid you not not even a week and he was crippled. The good thing was he came with a year guarantee so we got our money back. And actually sadly my jersey is doing better then he did lol (but I did get her at 4 months old )


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## MylieD (Sep 16, 2013)

Do you have to put cows down that go lame?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

We do yes.....well the bull they came and got him, that was the deal and I'm sure they put him down. The cow we had that broke her leg last year we put her down and butchered her out. There's no vets around here that want to deal with cows even if we wanted to go that way of trying to fix her. Yesterday was the first time I dealt with a goat with a broken leg and it took both me my mom and my son to splint her leg so I'm thinking there is no way we could ever try to do that with a full grown cow


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

I've splinted a sheep's leg. Healed nicely, couldn't ever tell that the leg was broken. It was a clean break though.
Jessica, what kind of break did Bubbles have?


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh you are giving me hope here, I have been seriously sick to my stomach over it and worried. Im not sure what kind of break it is lol it's between the knee and ankle and I can move it back and forth, made me sick to my stomach moving it to make sure it was straight


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

That is pretty much exactly how/where the sheep broke her leg  and the sound is the same as well.

What I did was splint it with short sticks and flannel (to keep it from rubbing plus it's nice and soft) and a tensor band around all that.
And every day, twice a day for about two weeks (I know people will say not to do this) I took that all off and put a herbal salve on the flannel that touches the leg (NOT the leg, this way I'm not moving the bone)
At two weeks the bone no longer moved. At 2-3 weeks she was hobbling around on it. At 4 weeks she was walking pretty much normal.

I left the splint on until 5 or so weeks. (The sticks were long then her legs so that if she tried walking, she never actually put weight on the broken bone)
After that I took the sticks and flannel off and just left the tensor band on for a couple more weeks.

And she was good as new!

In the salve I had comfrey, calendula, echinacea infused olive oil and several essential oils that help with inflammation and broken bones http://www.thegoatspot.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Hmm the longer stick idea is a good idea! Maybe I'll see if I can pick up some more get wrap and redo it that way.......yeah I think I'm gonna run to the feed store when I get the kids, I'm really liking that idea


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

Bumping


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## Kikinmackfarm (Mar 19, 2016)

What do ya,ll think about comfrey as an addative to boost the goat diet because it doesn't take much to really cut down on feed cost


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## Cedar Point Kikos (Oct 16, 2013)

I think it's a good idea, it was used in that past that way  Comfrey contains lots of minerals, I give it in the winter (dried) in their water


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

we are planting many different herbs this year...cant wait to start using them


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

> I don't know enough to teach yet, give me some more time


any new lessons on this Jill? :grin:


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## TeyluFarm (Feb 24, 2016)

This is awesome information!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Well, I've been thinking about all those vegetable tops.The greens off the carrots, beets, turnips, rutabagas, parsnips, celery leaves, etc. All this stuff normally goes to waste if it can't be used quickly. 
So,what if it was all chopped and dried like herbs? Then a guy could mix the dried bits with their kelp, use it make slurry, mix it in a warm mash for winter, etc... 

Oh, and I found the perfect thing to store leaves and stuff in. The trailer sized slow feed hay nets with the 1.5 inch holes. They can be hung up and the air can all through the bag.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good thinking...we do feed a lot of these leafy tops to them...didn't think about drying them...hummmmm


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## GF3 Boer Goats (Sep 25, 2017)

Would you keep out a mineral tub for them or will they get all their minerals from the root, herb diet thing.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

This is an older Thread.

But loose salt and minerals should be free choice.


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## Felinaherdqueen (Feb 24, 2021)

Old thread, but it's a goody, I'm diggin' all this history and information. Y'all are a wealth of information! ️


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## Nommie Bringeruvda Noms (Nov 7, 2019)

Ok, I know this is a really old thread, but after the storms we just had, we have a lot of recovery to do. We even lost one of our bucks to hypothermia (an educated guess), and now I'm getting ready to start my gardens,and already have some seedlings started. And, info in this thread might help a lot of us, who already have our seeds. 
One of the crops I have is loofa/luffa - yup, the sponges - and they're edible, suppose to be very zucchini-esque, and grow on huge vines, much like many other squash and gourds. I way over planted, am horribly reluctant to cull the extra, and reading this thread, I'm now wondering if the vines and leaves would be ok for my Nigoras? The little piggies seem to fight for anything they think might be even remotely edible, and I give them the trimmings of pruned bushes and trees, as well as some kitchen scraps (no onions, fats, or meats), and they fight over them, even when I spread them out. Their favorite tree trimmings so far, are the mimosas. But, what about the greens from gourds & squash?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

My goats gphave never shown interest in squash leaves, I try every fall...


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Nommie Bringeruvda Noms said:


> But, what about the greens from gourds & squash?


Yep, they would be fine to give, but like @MadHouse mine never seem to want them. No harm in trying though.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

I’m finding my mini Nubian is not a fan of grain. She has been in milk for close to 2 years and seems to go through phases where she likes it better and then again not. She loves her veggies though. I have started to trust her judgement on this more and more now. I am currently always offering both veggies and grains during milking and she always finishes the veggies, and almost never the grains. I used to be so worried but decided to let her choose now.
She does get her alfalfa hay, so the protein is covered.


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## AlabamaGirl (Jun 18, 2020)

Nommie Bringeruvda Noms said:


> Ok, I know this is a really old thread, but after the storms we just had, we have a lot of recovery to do. We even lost one of our bucks to hypothermia (an educated guess), and now I'm getting ready to start my gardens,and already have some seedlings started. And, info in this thread might help a lot of us, who already have our seeds.
> One of the crops I have is loofa/luffa - yup, the sponges - and they're edible, suppose to be very zucchini-esque, and grow on huge vines, much like many other squash and gourds. I way over planted, am horribly reluctant to cull the extra, and reading this thread, I'm now wondering if the vines and leaves would be ok for my Nigoras? The little piggies seem to fight for anything they think might be even remotely edible, and I give them the trimmings of pruned bushes and trees, as well as some kitchen scraps (no onions, fats, or meats), and they fight over them, even when I spread them out. Their favorite tree trimmings so far, are the mimosas. But, what about the greens from gourds & squash?


Do you plan on feeding the dry luffa to them as well? I feel like it'd be a good source of fiber.


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