# I bought an abused goat. What to do now?



## Bertnut2

I spent $300 for a Nigerian doe and $200 to transport and I got a bag of bones. In all the goats I've seen I have never seen anything like this. I just can't believe what was just delivered to me. This poor Nigerian is the size of a baby ND and she is older than the two I already have. I'm so sad and I feel so stupid for being fooled. 


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## Chadwick

Either try to undo the deal, or give a better life, whatever your heart leads you to.


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## Emzi00

Lots of TLC. Run a fecal, including coccidia, treat accordingly. Test for CAE and Johnes to see if that could be a part of it. Get some groceries into her. Get some pictures for us because we like to look at goats, and I wish you good luck!


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## 4seasonsfarm

Bertnut2 said:


> I spent $300 for a Nigerian doe and $200 to transport and I got a bag of bones. In all the goats I've seen I have never seen anything like this. I just can't believe what was just delivered to me. This poor Nigerian is the size of a baby ND and she is older than the two I already have. I'm so sad and I feel so stupid for being fooled.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


I would message them and let them know and tell them your mind!!! And for lettin a goat be like that!! I would definitely try to get some money back and u would keep her an give her a good home!!

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## dnchck

*I real*

please keep her and give her a better life! I realize the money factor and you should recover that loss but please don't let them have her back! Must be a reason she is with you! just my thoughts!


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## Bertnut2

Chadwick said:


> Either try to undo the deal, or give a better life, whatever your heart leads you to.


I live in PA and she was transported from MO. My boyfriend said if nothing else, we will give this goat a better life.

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## Bertnut2

Emzi00 said:


> Lots of TLC. Run a fecal, including coccidia, treat accordingly. Test for CAE and Johnes to see if that could be a part of it. Get some groceries into her. Get some pictures for us because we like to look at goats, and I wish you good luck!


We didn't get her till after 6:30 so we have fed her hay and given her water, minerals and baking soda. We will call the vet to come out first thing. Her bones are sticking out horribly. Her backbone is protruding so badly. I feel sick but she is happy and friendly.

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## COgoatLover25

That poor baby, I'm sorry you got duped into this. But , if it was me I would keep the poor little doe and at least give her a good life. I once got tricked into buying a Nubian goat who I thought was supposedly very healthy. When I got her she was all bones and caught coccidia. Now she is healthy and well fed, she gives me the most beautiful babies. Again , sorry this happened to you :hug: you need to report those people and warn others of them .


Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


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## Chadwick

I'm in PA also, and I agree with the boyfriend, keep her and give her the love!


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## Stacykins

If she is an older goat (beyond being a growing kid) the stunting will likely be permanent. Coccidia, worms, lack of nutrition, or a combination of the three could have easily caused her poor body condition and tiny size. 

So she might not ever be able to breed for you, if she can't ever reach a healthy size for pregnancy. Hopefully you are OK with her as a very (expensive) pet? 

I suggest you take pictures of her, ASAP, if you haven't already. Document EVERYTHING.


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## Bertnut2

4seasonsfarm said:


> I would message them and let them know and tell them your mind!!! And for lettin a goat be like that!! I would definitely try to get some money back and u would keep her an give her a good home!!
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Goat Forum


4seas- I messaged her right away and said I was just shocked at the goat and she said " oh I thought you would like her" she is just small. But I know I'm not crazy. This goat is 1/3 the size of my other ND's. And she is older. I'm going to let my vet review and then send her his report.

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## MsScamp

Bertnut2 said:


> I spent $300 for a Nigerian doe and $200 to transport and I got a bag of bones. In all the goats I've seen I have never seen anything like this. I just can't believe what was just delivered to me. This poor Nigerian is the size of a baby ND and she is older than the two I already have. I'm so sad and I feel so stupid for being fooled.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


Have your vet age her while she is there. I have no experience with ND's, but I believe most goats continue to grow and develop until around 2, maybe 3 years of age. There may - notice I said MAY - be something you can do about her size. Don't give up just yet.


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## Bertnut2

Stacykins said:


> If she is an older goat (beyond being a growing kid) the stunting will likely be permanent. Coccidia, worms, lack of nutrition, or a combination of the three could have easily caused her poor body condition and tiny size.
> 
> So she might not ever be able to breed for you, if she can't ever reach a healthy size for pregnancy. Hopefully you are OK with her as a very (expensive) pet?
> 
> I suggest you take pictures of her, ASAP, if you haven't already. Document EVERYTHING.


I will be taking pictures of all her issues. Her size, her protruding spine, her twisted hooves that look as though they were never trimmed, her twig legs and her hairless spots. I am going to have my vet document everything and send it to the seller. The odd thing is this tiny girl has a herd name I recognize "CR Precious Mini's" but I think she was bought by this other place. I just hope I can get her better.

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## COgoatLover25

If you don't mind me asking , what were her Sire and Dam's names ?


Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


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## 4seasonsfarm

Bertnut2 said:


> 4seas- I messaged her right away and said I was just shocked at the goat and she said " oh I thought you would like her" she is just small. But I know I'm not crazy. This goat is 1/3 the size of my other ND's. And she is older. I'm going to let my vet review and then send her his report.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


She was probably stunted by coccidia I'm so sorry but i do think you should keep her and maybe you should sue the lady!! because she probably is sellin other people goats lik ths:l

Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


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## Bertnut2

MsScamp said:


> Have your vet age her while she is there. I have no experience with ND's, but I believe most goats continue to grow and develop until around 2, maybe 3 years of age. There may - notice I said MAY - be something you can do about her size. Don't give up just yet.


I'm not a giver upper but I am just so sad. She is so sweet and I will do my best to get her better. I can't wait for the vet to come in the morning.

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## Bertnut2

4seasonsfarm said:


> She was probably stunted by coccidia I'm so sorry but i do think you should keep her and maybe you should sue the lady!! because she probably is sellin other people goats lik ths:l
> 
> Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


She advertised her on a Facebook Nigerian site and she had others breeds for sale. The transport lady said she thought it odd they met her on the highway rather than her farm. The transporter texted me the next morning to ask if I had seen the goat because she thought she was very small and didn't look like a Nigerian. 
As soon as I have the Vet documents I will be letting her know what action I will be taking.

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## christinajh

Do post pictures for us as well. Maybe she just didn't handle the transport well, and it should be something to be brought to their attention as well? She could have picked something up there, gone off feed, got too hot, got too stressed, didn't have enough water, anything could have happened in that type of situation.


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## Chadwick

When you sue for the cost of the animal it is considered by law a return of goods, and the person gets the animal back. You can sue for vet costs and all without returning the animal


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## COgoatLover25

COgoatLover25 said:


> If you don't mind me asking , what were her Sire and Dam's names ?
> 
> Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


I would like to know if it's not too much trouble 

Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


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## Bertnut2

COgoatLover25 said:


> If you don't mind me asking , what were her Sire and Dam's names ?
> 
> Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.[
> 
> It's been told to me that her sire is Mathiot's Paradise CK Geronimo and her dam is Mathiot's Paradise AJ Twila. And I can't imagine I am wrong. This tiny girl has issues. I had 2 friends here and even the transporter said she didn't think it was a Nigerian because she was so small.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## Bertnut2

COgoatLover25 said:


> I would like to know if it's not too much trouble
> 
> Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


It's been told to me that her sire is Mathiot's Paradise CK Geronimo and her dam is Mathiot's Paradise AJ Twila. And I can't imagine I am wrong. This tiny girl has issues. I had 2 friends here and even the transporter said she didn't think it was a Nigerian because she was so small.

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## COgoatLover25

Thanks 


Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


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## MsScamp

Bertnut2 said:


> I'm not a giver upper but I am just so sad. She is so sweet and I will do my best to get her better. I can't wait for the vet to come in the morning.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


I understand that completely. I will never understand how anyone could mistreat or not take proper care of an animal. I know you will. I'm sorry - I should have worded my response differently. I never for a moment thought you are the type to give up without a fight.


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## Trickyroo

How sad ! Im sorry this happened to you  Im sure you will do whatever you can to help this poor soul. Bless your heart for doing so.

Im interested in what the rest of the goats at this persons place looks like ! If this person is so blind to the animal's condition , she shouldn't have animals in the first place. Maybe get animal control on them.

I hope this baby can recover or at least live a happy life. 
Keep us posted on your vets findings and remarks .


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## 4seasonsfarm

Chadwick said:


> When you sue for the cost of the animal it is considered by law a return of goods, and the person gets the animal back. You can sue for vet costs and all without returning the animal


If the lady is selling sick animals and knows to lots of people I would sue jk but I would be very mad for her doin that to poor animals!!

Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


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## Bertnut2

MsScamp said:


> I understand that completely. I will never understand how anyone could mistreat or not take proper care of an animal. I know you will. I'm sorry - I should have worded my response differently. I never for a moment thought you are the type to give up without a fight.


Oh I took your words as encouragement MsScamp. I know you weren't being negative. Do not worry no apology needed.

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## MsScamp

Oh good! That is what I intended.


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## Bertnut2

Trickyroo said:


> How sad ! Im sorry this happened to you  Im sure you will do whatever you can to help this poor soul. Bless your heart for doing so.
> 
> Im interested in what the rest of the goats at this persons place looks like ! If this person is so blind to the animal's condition , she shouldn't have animals in the first place. Maybe get animal control on them.
> 
> I hope this baby can recover or at least live a happy life.
> Keep us posted on your vets findings and remarks .


I asked the transporter if she saw the other goats at her place and she said she was met on the side of the highway. They did not have her come to the "farm". I found that very strange. The seller really didn't seem to understand why I was upset when I got the little goat unless she playing with me. I have seen a hundred pictures on this site. I know what healthy goats look like and I have 2. I just don't understand. I don't know how she thought this goat was healthy.

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## COgoatLover25

Here's her sire
View attachment 68816


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## canyontrailgoats

Poor girl, I hate when people make animals suffer like that  . 

I'd just like to warn you that before you go and spend a lot of money and time on her, you should get her tested. You probably won't want her in your herd if she has cl or CAE, and if she happened to have johnnes you'd need to put her down. 

I think testing her now could save you a lot of heartbreak and frustration down the road. It's much cheaper to test her then to try and save her, and ending up putting her down anyways due to some serious illness.

Just my two cents...Good luck with her, I'll pray for you!


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## COgoatLover25

Link to dam 

http://www.hookhillacres.com/twila.html

I agree on that you should get her tested 

Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


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## horselovergoatnewbie

The two girls we just purchased a week and a half ago were also really thin. The lady we bought from has them staked out in the yard in full sun with no water. She had several others out the same way as well. She saw nothing wrong with it. In just that short a time, on minimal grain and all the hay they want plus pasture browse during the day, both have picked up weight. It's pretty obvious they weren't being fed much, if at all. It's sad that people treat animals this way. I hope you get your situation worked out  


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## Bertnut2

Here are the pictures I saw before I got the goat.














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## Bertnut2

Here is the goat I got.
























































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## Bertnut2

There must have been a scrapies tag on her ear but now there is a chunk out of it. (No tag) Also instead of the health record I got a half piece of notebook paper with a few dates and medicines. No health certificate. And I'm sorry but one more question, she had never registered this goat so she just whited out her info and sent me a registration record transfer paper with the Chapins info on it as though this goat was transferred to me by CR Precious Mini owners. Can I register her that way? 


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## ThreeHavens

Poor, poor baby! If you haven't already, I would keep her separate from your herd till she is tested. Even if you already exposed them, I would still separate her. IF she has something, the less exposure she has to the rest of your herd, the better.

I agree on the fecals. At this point she may just need some probios and TLC.   Poor darling. "Better Daze" by Fir Meadow is a great herbal mix, specifically for rescues when technically there's nothing "wrong" with them, but they just need help recovering.


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## ksalvagno

Yes. You can register her. That is shameful. That woman ought to be thoroughly ashamed of herself for letting an animal get in that condition. She looks like a couple month old kid. I'm so glad she is in your hands now but I'm so sorry you got so taken advantage of. I bet the original owner would be just sick to see her condition now.


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## nchen7

oh my goodness!!! how can someone do that to an animal??? sorry you got so taken advantage of! I'm irate for you!!! if I were you, I'd call the authorities on the woman after you have all your ducks in a row (which I think you were doing anyway)

good luck with this girl. I hope for the best.


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## Stacykins

How old is she supposed to be? 

She definitely looks like she could use some good minerals, too. If the vet is willing to give you a dose of Multimin 90 (if you don't want a whole bottle), it would quickly help her get back on track in addition to whatever minerals you feed. It has copper, selenium, zinc, and manganese, though you'd need to give her some vitamin E to help the selenium along.


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## Bertnut2

Stacykins said:


> How old is she supposed to be?
> 
> She definitely looks like she could use some good minerals, too. If the vet is willing to give you a dose of Multimin 90 (if you don't want a whole bottle), it would quickly help her get back on track in addition to whatever minerals you feed. It has copper, selenium, zinc, and manganese, though you'd need to give her some vitamin E to help the selenium along.


Her birthday was March 2013. Here is her original posting from The Chapins. To be honest she looks bigger as a new born than she does now.














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## nchen7

seems like her original breeders should know who they're selling their goats to.....


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## Bertnut2

You know what's so odd and it has me thinking..... Even though this goat is skin on bones her belly is fat ish. I was thinking it was bloat from not eating and the transporter said she ate up all the bedding and a ton of hay. ( which she stopped to get because she was given wet hay that smelled funny) But after I carried her to take her pictures this morning I'm wondering if she may be pregnant. I think her teeny tiny udder has a little pouch to it. I've texted my boyfriend to ask the vet to check that. 


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## 4seasonsfarm

Well she doesn't seem as short as I thought she would be but I agree to get her tested!!! And seperate her for a while. Also brush out her hair it looks all mangy I feel so bad for her!!!


Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


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## 4seasonsfarm

Also her pooch does look pregnant!! But the if she is preggo her baby probably isn't getting good nutrition!!:/ so make sure you feed her good and if she is preggo I would give her a Bose shot to help


Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


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## nchen7

worms? worms can cause a distended belly...


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## Bertnut2

nchen7 said:


> seems like her original breeders should know who they're selling their goats to.....


As soon as I have the documentation from the vet I'm going to email it to the birth herd CR Precious Minis (the Chapins )and let them know. They are in MO also.

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## happybleats

Im so sorry...for you and her...She is in rough shape for sure...as for being bred..Im not great at pooch pics but when I saw her pic..tip down..I think she is bred..; (..might test for that when you pull blood...
Sometimes a goat in bad shape is just that...in bad shape.. wormer, a few groceries, mineral and loving care can bring them back to good standing..Lets hope this is true in this little lady...

Best wishes


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## NyGoatMom

Oh boy~you have a long haul  Sorry this happened to you and her :hug: Hope to see updates on her condition and let us know what the vet says!


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## kccjer

I'm rather surprised no one else mentioned this. Send all your pics and your vet report to the Sheriff where this lady lives. Tell him you are concerned for the condition of the other animals at this farm. At the least, they will go check....they may not do anything, but they WILL go out and check. That poor baby. I am so sorry you got suckered by this. I would also send pics to the fb site where she had her goats listed. And I know it's late in the game if she is pg, but I would talk to the vet about aborting. In her condition she may not survive a pg (may not carry full term anyway).


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## Bertnut2

Here are my 2 Nigerians. The brown one Peanut is bred and due mid July. ATTACH]68848[/ATTACH]ATTACH]68845[/ATTACH]








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## Bertnut2

4 seasonsfarm said:


> Well she doesn't seem as short as I thought she would be but I agree to get her tested!!! And seperate her for a while. Also brush out her hair it looks all mangy I feel so bad for her!!!
> 
> Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


She has lots of very thin spots. Her hair was falling out all over me when I was holding her. I wanted to give her a bath but wanted to wait for the vet.

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## happybleats

> seems like her original breeders should know who they're selling their goats to.....


Although I DO AGREE..the Chapin's need to know...its sad that we sell our goats with good intentions only to find they are not being cared for properly, and there is very little we can do about it other then buy them back if we have the means...and never sell to them again..


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## happybleats

Yes...wait for the vet to see her then I would shave her if the weather is warm enough...get rid of all that old hair..sometimes they can be quite beautiful under the mess...

Best wishes


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## Bertnut2

kccjer said:


> I'm rather surprised no one else mentioned this. Send all your pics and your vet report to the Sheriff where this lady lives. Tell him you are concerned for the condition of the other animals at this farm. At the least, they will go check....they may not do anything, but they WILL go out and check. That poor baby. I am so sorry you got suckered by this. I would also send pics to the fb site where she had her goats listed. And I know it's late in the game if she is pg, but I would talk to the vet about aborting. In her condition she may not survive a pg (may not carry full term anyway).


I was wondering who I should call. As soon as I get the vet documentation I will be letting someone know. I am also going up be send info to the administrator of the sale site.

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## Trickyroo

Im not sure if anyone mentioned this before cause i didn't read all the previous posts , but i would set up another buy with this person and have someone else follow them back to their farm and get a eyeful of their farm if possible. The humane society might need to get involved.
Just a thought.


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## farmchick897

Its a shame people can be so dishonest. I have to admit when I first read your post I just figured you where being picky. But after looking at the pics you were sent verses what the goat looks like, I don't think anyone can say that goat is healthy and taken care of. You completely got ripped off and should go after seller. Keep good records and take pics of how the animal changes with proper care. Make sure to get a fecal with coccidia at vets too. Good luck!


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## Bertnut2

happybleats said:


> Although I DO AGREE..the Chapin's need to know...its sad that we sell our goats with good intentions only to find they are not being cared for properly, and there is very little we can do about it other then buy them back if we have the means...and never sell to them again..


 Yep I thought that too happyb. I have a bred doe and I want to sell her babies but I can only do so much in hopes of the buyer. I don't put blame on anyone but the caretaker of the goat. I am hoping they would at least be aware of the iherdholler farm and what I found to be their treatment.

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## Bertnut2

farmchick897 said:


> Its a shame people can be so dishonest. I have to admit when I first read your post I just figured you where being picky. But after looking at the pics you were sent verses what the goat looks like, I don't think anyone can say that goat is healthy and taken care of. You completely got ripped off and should go after seller. Keep good records and take pics of how the animal changes with proper care. Make sure to get a fecal with coccidia at vets too. Good luck!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


Without shaving her, you can't tell how badly her bones stick out. Her backbone, hips, and ribs are terrible. The vet is working the overnight emergencies but he has promised to be out today. I am anxious for him to get here.

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## Jessica84

Now i totally agree with you for being ticked don't get me wrong. And she is sooooo not what you paid for but I bet wormer and copper will go a long way for that little girl. I have seen way worse come out to be a nice goat. 
I myself would bad mouth that lady at every chance I got. I usually don't play that card but you paid A LOT of money!!!! I would go on fb to the page she advertised and post a picture and say just got my doe from X and put a  
I'm really sorry you had this happen. This is my biggest fear of paying for a goat before I ever see it. I have only ever done it once and thank god it ended well but I will probably never do it again just because of what happened to you 


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## kccjer

Oooohhh...I like Jessica's idea of posting the pic on the FB page too. THAT will really bring awareness up.


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## Bertnut2

Jessica84 said:


> Now i totally agree with you for being ticked don't get me wrong. And she is sooooo not what you paid for but I bet wormer and copper will go a long way for that little girl. I have seen way worse come out to be a nice goat.
> I myself would bad mouth that lady at every chance I got. I usually don't play that card but you paid A LOT of money!!!! I would go on fb to the page she advertised and post a picture and say just got my doe from X and put a
> I'm really sorry you had this happen. This is my biggest fear of paying for a goat before I ever see it. I have only ever done it once and thank god it ended well but I will probably never do it again just because of what happened to you
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


I agree Jessica! I think she will get better and be a pretty little girl. She just needs some groceries and some love. She is very personable. This was my first time buying a goat I had only seen in pictures but it will be my last. The funny thing is when everyone asked me why I am getting a doe from MO when there are plenty in PA I kept saying I don't know. Something about her face touches me. Now I know, she needed me!!!!! I was meant to get her and help her.

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## Bertnut2

NyGoatMom said:


> Oh boy~you have a long haul  Sorry this happened to you and her :hug: Hope to see updates on her condition and let us know what the vet says!


NyGoatMom - I will positively keep everyone update! I can feel the care from everyone about little Abby and I hope in a short time to be able to say she's on the road to recovery.

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## 4seasonsfarm

Bertnut2 said:


> She has lots of very thin spots. Her hair was falling out all over me when I was holding her. I wanted to give her a bath but wanted to wait for the vet.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


Yeh that might be good to wait

Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


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## christinajh

She really needs some copper, worming, minerals, and some Kelp. A bath and some groceries I think she will come along fine. She never was a full sized Nigerian in the first pictures. Just looks like she has a worm load going that has wrecked havoc on her hair and weight. She might be just fine with some TLC. I also agree at least do CAE and a pregnancy test through BioTracking, so you know that at least.


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## happybleats

> Something about her face touches me. Now I know, she needed me!!!!! I was meant to get her and help her.


And so glad you did!!.I bet in no time she will be worth every dime...

Do talk to the vet about the pregnancy.. There is no telling what she was bred to...If shes not too far along to be aborted..it might be the most humane thing for her..

Best wishes


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## HerdQueen

I am floored right now. I can't believe the previous owner thinks this is acceptable. I would post on fb as well.


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## GoatGirlZ

What did the vet say???


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## chelsboers

She looks bad now but with some TLC I have no doubt that she'll eventually look great. Your other goats are proof that you take great care of your animals. 

As for telling naming the seller specifically on Facebook, I don't think that's such a great idea. You don't want someone to sue you for slander and you don't want to get hate mail from people who might be friends with them. She could also try saying later that you are harassing her. You also don't want to do something that might hurt your chances if you have to take her to court or try to get some money back for vet bills. I would post pics and tell people that they need to be careful and see about giving the administer to the page a heads up.


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## Bertnut2

GoatGirlZ said:


> What did the vet say???


I called the vet before 7 and they have been running emergencies all day. He called and talked to my bf at length concerning her behavior. Vet said giver her alfalfa, fruit, veg but hold off the feed mix I use. He wants her in his office first thing tomorrow morning. She isn't lethargic or crying in pain or having a " medical emergency". So I will take her in first thing in the am. He usually shows up anytime we call so I feel confident he is super busy. I'll will update as soon as I can on everything he says.

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## ThreeHavens

Honestly, I can't wait to see "after" pictures in a few months.   Your love will do her the good she deserves.


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## Bertnut2

I think she will be beautiful! I will love her to pieces! 



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## Suntoo

chelsboers said:


> As for telling naming the breeder specifically on Facebook, I don't think that's such a great idea. You don't want someone to sue you for slander and you don't want to get hate mail from people who might be friends with them. She could also try saying later that you are harassing her. You also don't want to do something that might hurt your chances if you have to take her to court or try to get some money back for vet bills. I would post pics and tell people that they need to be careful and see about giving the administer to the page a heads up.


Posting a picture and telling where you bought the goat from is NOT slander!
The picture is proof along with purchase receipts. And don't forget the transporter who wasn't allowed to pick the goat up at the farm.
You can't be sued for telling the truth!

How would anyone know who to avoid buying a goat from if you don't have the balls to tell anyone who you got it from??
I'd like to know who it is.

Why would she be afraid of posting the pictures with the name of the seller on Facebook??
(Of ALL places on Facebook!)
I absolutely would.
Bertnut2 hasn't said one thing out of line....if I were the seller I would be very nervous that Animal Control may show up at my door.

Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself. You can do it with the truth.


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## chelsboers

Suntoo said:


> Posting a picture and telling where you bought the goat from is NOT slander!
> The picture is proof along with purchase receipts. And don't forget the transporter who wasn't allowed to pick the goat up at the farm.
> You can't be sued for telling the truth!
> 
> How would anyone know who to avoid buying a goat from if you don't have the balls to tell anyone who you got it from??
> I'd like to know who it is.
> 
> Why would she be afraid of posting the pictures with the name of the seller on Facebook??
> (Of ALL places on Facebook!)
> I absolutely would.
> Bertnut2 hasn't said one thing out of line....if I were the seller I would be very nervous that Animal Control may show up at my door.
> 
> Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself. You can do it with the truth.


I actually did say that she should post pictures on Facebook and in no way said she should be "afraid to post pictures", but if you have Facebook then you know how people on there are. If people want to know who the seller is they can send her a PM where she can then give them details. You can sue if you feel you are being harassed, which is something that can happen to both the buyer and the seller. Besides the previous owner may be one of those completely ignorant owners and sees nothing wrong with the condition that goat is in. Maybe when Bertnut sends the vet papers to them they will make it right. 
As for knowing who the previous owner is it's pretty easy to find out if you look up who the sire and dam of the doe she bought. A quick Google search brings up their website and Facebook page. 
I also NEVER said that Bertnut2 was out of line. You need to re read what I did say before getting your feathers all ruffled and jumping on me.


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## sweetgoats

Well, I am sure you will love her to death in no time. She will be the beautiful girl you thought you were getting. 

I do understand you are upset and you have the right to be but look at it this way. YOU have her now and she will be in great hands and get the care she needs. 

I would not be calling the sheriff, posting pictures and talking bad about her on FB. let her sell the other goats and they too will have a happy life once they are out of her care. 

You can post stuff on FB and yes they can get you for slander. She can say the doe was in great shape when she left, it was the transporter that did it and without pictures from her it is a battle against them. LET IT GO.

I know someone else that purchased a doe that was not in the shape they should of been, yes that person was so mad and had the right to be but now that the goat is getting food in her she is a nice doe. think of it as you are saving her life. The person that transported this doe should NOT of taken her without a Health certificate form a VET, PERIOD. They have to have the to cross state lines. 

as for the dry skin, and hair loss, it anyone things that is abuse, then i am in trouble. I have a doe that is so full of dry flaky skin and is almost totally bald. She does not absorb VIt D or A so she is like that. I have to give her shots and it helps but she is always full of flakes. She is also allergic to the sun. Yep I did say that. 
Giver her BOSS and a good handful twice a day, and I also give my girl 3cc of oil (I can not think of what it is called right now, but it is for horses to get a shiny coat).

I can not wait to see how beautiful she is in a few months. She is already adorable.


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## still

I agree with Sweetgoats........to let it go. That girl will probably be worth every penny when she gets back into shape. In fact she will probably be the best goat you have which would be the best outcome for her and you


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## nchen7

sweetgoats said:


> let her sell the other goats and they too will have a happy life once they are out of her care.


the problem with this is the person who abuses animals and makes a profit off of the abuse will continue to do so. it's like buying puppies from puppy mills. yes you're technically saving that puppy, but you're positively reinforcing bad behaviour by giving them money. buying the animal (and paying a lot for what you're getting) doesn't get to the root of the problem.

to the OP, do what feels right to you. and I can't wait for updates on your lovely girl.


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## still

nchen7 said:


> the problem with this is the person who abuses animals and makes a profit off of the abuse will continue to do so. it's like buying puppies from puppy mills. yes you're technically saving that puppy, but you're positively reinforcing bad behaviour by giving them money. buying the animal (and paying a lot for what you're getting) doesn't get to the root of the problem.
> 
> to the OP, do what feels right to you. and I can't wait for updates on your lovely girl.


I agree! It makes me so mad that money is put ahead of animal welfare far too often:veryangry:


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## ksalvagno

I see nothing wrong with stating facts and keeping it totally unemotional. I think it is time for people to stop being so hush hush about all the bad breeders no matter what the animal. The problem is they stay in business and continue to sell neglected animals for high prices and they are doing great financially while you are pouring the money into the sick animal, trying to get them healthy again.

The important thing is to only state facts, keep it simple and leave all emotion out. Also never state anything that is hearsay. Only your experience.


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## chapinranch

On behalf of CR Precious Mini's we are the breeder of Abigail in question .She was sold to Iherdhollar. They sold her in this condition , she went to Iherdhollar at 2 months of age . Please be sure when referring to breeder being ignorant that you are talking about the correct farm .The dam is Mathiot's Paradise AJ Twila which we owned and Sire is Mathiot's Paradise CK Geronimo which we still own . Is the Dam and Sire of CR Precious Abigail. Iherdhollar did not breed this goat but the condition of her lies with them not CR Precious Mini's.


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## happybleats

I would like to point out that the breeder is not the person who the OP purchased this doe from...it was a second party...But I agree with Karen..Silence causes more abuse and there are ways to make this public without bashing..just state the facts...post the pic she sent you...post the pic you took when she got to you...and any vet findings...BUT FIRST...contact the person you bought her from..as stated..she may be painfully unaware of what a healthy goats looks like or how to care for them...perhaps she needs US to teach her...if not...then move forward, make your point....then walk away...I have a feeling your doe will be worth every penny in your caring and capable hands...

there is a bit of anger brewing on this thread...lets try to support the OP and keep it friendly...: )


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## Dayna

I'm glad you have her.


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## chelsboers

chapinranch said:


> On behalf of CR Precious Mini's we are the breeder of Abigail in question .She was sold to Iherdhollar. They sold her in this condition , she went to Iherdhollar at 2 months of age . Please be sure when referring to breeder being ignorant that you are talking about the correct farm .The dam is Mathiot's Paradise AJ Twila which we owned and Sire is Mathiot's Paradise CK Geronimo which we still own . Is the Dam and Sire of CR Precious Abigail. Iherdhollar did not breed this goat but the condition of her lies with them not CR Precious Mini's.


I corrected my post since I don't want anyone thinking you are responsible. I had read that she was bought by someone other than the breeder and they were reselling her but forgot when I posted.


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## happybleats

> i corrected my post since i don't want anyone thinking you are responsible. I had read that she was bought by someone other than the breeder and they were reselling her but forgot when i posted.


thank you chelsea!!


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## chapinranch

thank you chelsboers


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## ptgoats45

I thought I knew who you were talking about before I saw chapinranch's post. This person does post several goats for sale. She always states how "hardy" they are and "worm resistant" when clearly the goat is thin, stunted and pot-bellied (I am referring to other goats this person has posted for sale on FB). Just remember to go slow introducing new feed so you don't overload her system. She most likely has suffered from coccidia which is quite prevalent in this area of the country (I am in OK, the seller is in SW MO). Worms are also very bad out here and are super resistant so be sure to have follow up fecals done after worming. I think this area might also be Zinc deficient which would explain the flaky skin, you might ask your vet about that as well as giving her some Bo-Se. It is good you have her, but I would still pursue this person and make sure that they understand they are selling unhealthy goats that are stunted and not living up to their potential. I don't think it is exactly a case of intended abuse but more a lack of knowledge and poor herd management. I am not in any way trying to defend the person that sold this goat, I don't know her, but over the last year or so I have seen ads posted by this person showing thin, pot bellied goats that are a result of improper worming and coccidia prevention.


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## Trickyroo

My opinion on naming this person on facebook is innocent people can get hurt as well. And it can turn nasty really fast.
Im one who suggested having animal control go to this persons farm , i agree that whoever sold her that way should be held responsible . 
Your well on your way of documenting everything and having pictures to support them and of course your vets findings. Once anything is on Facebook or another public forum its hard if not impossible to change or take back anything. It can spread like wildfire and can snowball and take out people that had nothing to do with it. 
Do it the right way and handle it with class. Just my opinion  
I wish you all the luck and I look forward to seeing your little girl improve and thrive under your care and love


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## Bertnut2

Vet appt at 7 a.m. Est. I'll update everyone as soon as I know the findings. I did some searching on other goats this girl sells and in pictures even many of them look very boney. None as bad as Abby but still maybe she doesn't know???? She continues to message me for vet details and seemed shocked I'm upset. We will see what the vet says. 


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## HerdQueen

Make sure you ask the vet if her condition is d/t long term neglect or could have happened during transport. Just so she can't say the transporter is at fault.


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## takethelead

Well if the case is she honestly doesn't know, hopefully she can understand now what it takes to have healthy goats and maybe prepare herself better with taking care of the ones she has left. I have met a few people though who know what they are doing to their animals but act as if they haven't when they get caught in these situations. I'm hoping for the best though! She'll be such a cutie when you get her healthy again! Good luck :thumbup:

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## Bertnut2

HerdQueen said:


> Make sure you ask the vet if her condition is d/t long term neglect or could have happened during transport. Just so she can't say the transporter is at fault.


HerdQueen- Thank you! I will make sure to have it noted. The transport started texting me the day after pick up and asking about age, and breed of goat again. She made sure to tell me the goat was very small and fat. She asked about preg and wondered if I had seen the goat beforehand. I think she wanted to start making sure I knew what was coming.

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## HerdQueen

Sounds like she is a knowledable goat transporter. Sorry you are dealing with the neglected girl. Also take hoof nippers so you can trim her hooves at the appt in case she has hoof rot the vet can note that as well.


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## sweetgoats

Let us know what the Vet says.

Again, I am just glad she is with you. She will be fat and sassy in no time.


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## Bertnut2

Vets preliminary info. She weighs 19lbs but that's with a packed full belly. ( she's been eating like a vacuum) Because of her alertness and mobility he is calling her " in very poor condition" rather than unhealthy. He took fecal samples to check for lung worms, ( she has a cough) worms, and parasites. He took hair samples to check for mites. He trimmed her hooves; the back ones were very very bad. He gave her an antibiotic shot. He wants to wait for results before he moves forward with anything. His direction is slow and steady.... even with medicine because she's in such poor condition. He is worried to overwhelm her system. I should keep feeding her small amounts of grain and alfalfa pellets which I had started. He did an ultrasound and she is not "visibly" pregnant although she was in with a buck a few weeks before she was shipped. So in 3 weeks we will do blood tests for Johne's, CAE, CL, and pregnancy. He said this was not shipment stress or weigh loss, this is long term poor care. 


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## happybleats

Sounds like you have a awesome vet..I agree slow and steady...over whelming her can do more harm then good....wouldn't hurt to shave her now..get the old hair off..run off any lice that might be lunching...

best wishes!!


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## Bertnut2

happybleats said:


> Sounds like you have a awesome vet..I agree slow and steady...over whelming her can do more harm then good....wouldn't hurt to shave her now..get the old hair off..run off any lice that might be lunching...
> 
> best wishes!!


I would love to shave her and bathe her. She is so so crusty and dirty and her hair is very fine and thin (which he said is due to diet) but he said give her a few days before I do anything. Just let her relax and eat and we will start meds as soon as we know what to treat. Then we can start cleaning her up. He said since she's eating he wants to let her eat and not cause her any more stress.

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## Stacykins

19 pounds?! ONE NINE POUNDS?! And she is over a year old?! WOW! We don't have a gif that reflects how utterly shocking that is! 

I have NDs born this March that weigh more than that! 

The person you got her from is seriously messed up if she thinks she can neglect animals like she has your doe. I'm going to stop now before I use harsh words that get me a warning!


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## Bertnut2

Stacykins said:


> 19 pounds?! ONE NINE POUNDS?! And she is over a year old?! WOW! We don't have a gif that reflects how utterly shocking that is!
> 
> I have NDs born this March that weigh more than that!
> 
> The person you got her from is seriously messed up if she thinks she can neglect animals like she has your doe. I'm going to stop now before I use harsh words that get me a warning!


And when he did the ultrasound he said 19 lbs was because her belly was packed. Sadly that wouldn't have been her weight otherwise. Trust me, the pictures just couldn't show how bad she is. My 2 ND's look like Clydesdales compared to her.

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## COgoatLover25

That didn't happen with the transport...


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## canyontrailgoats

Animal control or the sheriff needs to get on that breeder's case immediately. I can only imagine how disgusting and unhealthy her other goats are, and it makes me sick to think that she's selling them to people unawares...

Maybe she is blind to the condition of her goats. in that case she needs someone to open her eyes to the truth before she ends up losing them all or being sued. 
Honestly, this is a lose/lose situation for the seller and buyer, no one is truly benefiting from her animals in the long run. I hope everything gets sorted out, and life gets better for the goats  .....


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## happybleats

> I would love to shave her and bathe her. She is so so crusty and dirty and her hair is very fine and thin (which he said is due to diet) but he said give her a few days before I do anything. Just let her relax and eat and we will start meds as soon as we know what to treat. Then we can start cleaning her up. He said since she's eating he wants to let her eat and not cause her any more stress.


Makes sense...as long as bugs aren't bothering her..which will cause undo stress as well..maybe lots of brushing and hugs and kisses


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## Bertnut2

happybleats said:


> Makes sense...as long as bugs aren't bothering her..which will cause undo stress as well..maybe lots of brushing and hugs and kisses


Poor girl is probably getting tired of all my hugs and kisses. She is a super sweety and I'm so glad for that!!!

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## Bertnut2

Bertnut2 said:


> Poor girl is probably getting tired of all my hugs and kisses. She is a super sweety and I'm so glad for that!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


He did say he does not see lice or mites, but he took samples to check anyway. I don't notice her scratching a lot. In the past she definitely has because she has scars and scabs on both ears from scratching with her sharp un-trimmed hooves.

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## Mcclan3

19 pounds?!?! My smallest is 45 pounds and 19" at a year and a half. My kids weigh more than that. Wen the vet gives you the okay for shaving her, make sure you definitely take more photos and alert the sheriff and Animal Control. It's probably safe to assume that there are multiple goats in a similar condition in her care, and every one of them would be better off with immediate rehoming, NOT letting them slowly get purchased (which will allow her to continue making money and treating these animals this way). This is not a case of someone that simply doesn't know what they are doing if they won't even let the transport see where the animals are being kept. That screams shady to me.


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## nchen7

canyontrailgoats said:


> Animal control or the sheriff needs to get on that breeder's case immediately.


I just want to clarify, the breeder didn't do this. The breeder sold the goat to someone else, who the OP purchased from.


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## canyontrailgoats

Oops sorry for the confusion! The breeder is definitely innocent of this, the guilty one is the person who was in possession of this extremely neglected goat and was very unethical and dishonest in selling her to bertnut2.

Thanks for pointing that out nchen


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## JAR702

My goodness, I am praying for you little doe. I am a new goat owner and my first three came from the same place. I went to buy one and couldn't leave the other 2 there. Luckily 2 of the does are doing well, fat and sassy, the other was put down b/c she was bred too young to a larger buck. I agree you should definitely call the sheriff and file a report, you never know who else might of also bought a lemon goat.


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## Trickyroo

nchen7 said:


> I just want to clarify, the breeder didn't do this. The breeder sold the goat to someone else, who the OP purchased from.


Exactly why I don't think posting this on FB would be a good idea.
A simple mistake or mis information can ruin good people in a heartbeat.


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## kccountryfarm

I purchased a doe and her wether companion last year from a breeder. The breeder had originally sold the two to a lady. She had the breeder breed the doe. A few months later he found that the lady was selling the doe and wether for way too much money on Craigslist. The lady told him that she was selling for that amount because the doe was bred. He told her that she couldn't sell unborn kids. He went to her property to purchase them back and when he got there he found them in a 5x5 pen with no shelter, no water and no food. He said that he had a hard time keeping his mouth shut and just to get the goats in his possession. They were under weight and loosing hair. So, I bought them because I knew we could care for them and love them like they are suppose to be loved. Things work out for a reason. Now the two are fat, happy, social, and most of all LOVED!!!! Good luck to you.


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## canyontrailgoats

What do you call the responsible one? I mean she breeds her own goats but didn't breed this particular doe, she just bought it. So would she still be known as a "breeder", or a buyer? 

Just wondering so that we don't have any more confusion and blame put on the original breeder...


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## Trickyroo

Good question canyontrailgoats.


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## MsScamp

Based on what I've read on here, the seller is responsible for the condition this goat is in. Not the breeder, not the transport company or it's employees - this falls squarely on the seller.

ETA: Think of it this way. If you go buy an animal you are the buyer, and whomever you bought it from is the seller. If you take that animal and breed it, then you are the breeder for the offspring but NOT the original animal. You will never be anything other than the buyer/owner of the original animal. Does that clear it up a bit?


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## Bertnut2

JAR702 said:


> My goodness, I am praying for you little doe. I am a new goat owner and my first three came from the same place. I went to buy one and couldn't leave the other 2 there. Luckily 2 of the does are doing well, fat and sassy, the other was put down b/c she was bred too young to a larger buck. I agree you should definitely call the sheriff and file a report, you never know who else might of also bought a lemon goat.


Your goats came from Iherdholler also?

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## kccjer

canyontrailgoats said:


> What do you call the responsible one? I mean she breeds her own goats but didn't breed this particular doe, she just bought it. So would she still be known as a "breeder", or a buyer?
> 
> Just wondering so that we don't have any more confusion and blame put on the original breeder...


I would still call her a "breeder" cause that is what she is. She may not have "bred" this particular goat. Noone is suggesting the original breeder is responsible in any way


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## canyontrailgoats

kccjer said:


> I would still call her a "breeder" cause that is what she is. She may not have "bred" this particular goat. Noone is suggesting the original breeder is responsible in any way


That's why I called her a breeder, because she breeds and sells her goats for a profit. That IS what defines a breeder, right? Anyways, I can understand the confusion that could arise from this. I suppose people could mix up "a" breeder with "the" breeder of the doe. I guess for this subject it'll be best to refer to her as the "seller"


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## happybleats

I think in this Thread referring her as the "SELLER" is best...it is important to maintain caution for the "Breeders" sake...leave no room for misunderstanding..


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## canyontrailgoats

Agreed


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## Trickyroo

Me too


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## MsScamp

kccjer said:


> I would still call her a "breeder" cause that is what she is. She may not have "bred" this particular goat. Noone is suggesting the original breeder is responsible in any way


But no one has referred to her as "a breeder", have they? It has only been "the breeder" and that is not only not accurate, it paints the actual breeder of this particular goat with the same brush as the seller. Why do you think terms like "buyer", "seller", "breeder", "trainer", etc were developed? To help prevent innocent people from being crucified for something they didn't do. Even if one keeps animals only as pets, I believe they have a responsibility to know, understand, and use the correct terms. I don't mean to lecture, nor am I singling you out, but this is something I feel very strongly about. Reputations and businesses have been destroyed overnight because someone didn't bother to learn and use the correct terminology.


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## AJSIHH

I am the person who sold this lady the goat that is being discussed. I am not here to argue, so please do not start fighting with me. I am simply here to apologize for what has happened and to try to post my view on this. First of all, as I had stated, I am sorry all this is happening. I honestly do not think that Abigail is sick. I take full responsibility for her hooves. They were neglected longer than they should have. We went all winter without trimming and are just now trimming. As far as her size/weight, her mother was much smaller than all of my other Nigerian Dwarfs. I thought it was just her lines/genetics. She was fed grain, alfalfa hay, browse/brush, and minerals. She was UTD on worming and coccidia prevention treatment and her shots. I LOVE all my goats. They are my babies. Was this girl much smaller than the average Nigerian??? Absolutely. I simply thought it was her line since I saw her dam and sire and they were smaller than all of mine. She was NOT bald neither did she have sores when I left her to be transported. She was shedding somewhat due to her winter coat leaving. She was just wormed, so unless this wormer that my vet personally recommended does not work anymore, she should not have parasites! I used Levamisol 10 days apart right before selling her. The breeder I bought Abby from has very nice looking goats. I am NOT bashing her goats at all. They were just much smaller than the average Nigerian. But they all look very healthy, shiny, etc. I raised Abby the same way anyone else would. She just never grew big like the other Nigerians. But as I stated, I thought it was just her genetics. I would NEVER sell a goat that was sick to my knowledge. I did NOT buy Abby at 2 months old and I have papers to prove it. We will resolve this issue. I am definitely going to stay in contact with Abby's new owner until we can work something out and it won't be by public name calling. I do not wish to call anyone out or be mean. I just want to work things out. These goats are my babies, they are my life. I am nothing without them.


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## chapinranch

*size of our goats Dam and Sire of Abigail*

The Dam of said goat weight of this goat was weighed as of tonight and she is 52 lbs and the Sire to this doeling in question is a stocky big buck . I have attached a picture of Said buck


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## Rhandi74

chapinranch said:


> The Dam of said goat weight of this goat was weighed as of tonight and she is 52 lbs and the Sire to this doeling in question is a stocky big buck . I have attached a picture of Said buck


This does not seem small to me. You have very gorgeous goats!!! I am sure she will be just as gorgeous as her dam and sire once she gets proper treatment and care.


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## chapinranch

Rhandi74 said:


> This does not seem small to me. You have very gorgeous goats!!! I am sure she will be just as gorgeous as her dam and sire once she gets proper treatment and care.


thank you  we do the best we can

Shes always been a beautiful doeling  loved abbys coloring


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## happybleats

The seller has made a post...this can go south real fast....Lets not let it....Lets keep it friendly...Focus now on watching Abby grow strong and healthy ...Thank you !!!

Chapinranch...your buck is beautiful thank you for sharing his pic!!..And thank you for being civil in all this ...


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## chapinranch

happybleats said:


> The seller has made a post...this can go south real fast....Lets not let it....Lets keep it friendly...Focus now on watching Abby grow strong and healthy ...Thank you !!!
> 
> Chapinranch...your buck is beautiful thank you for sharing his pic!!..And thank you for being civil in all this ...


you are very welcome happybleats  and thank you on the compliment on Geronimo


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## canyontrailgoats

Dear AJSIHH:

As long as you try to make things right for Abby and her owner, I hold no grudge against you. I see no point in being angry if you sincerely try to fix your mistakes, and learn from them too. I feel like a valuable lesson has been learned by many goat breeders, sellers and buyers today: we need to be a team not enemies! We want to be PROUD of the goats we breed/sell/buy, and that's only possible if we work together to keep the goats healthy and...something to be proud of! Instead of slandering and bad mouthing each other, let's work as a team to make sure our goats stay healthy and beautiful from their birth on the breeder's farm to their final home wherever that may be. This probably doesn't even make sense and I'm sorry. But the point is if you make right your wrongs and do what's best and make life better for all involved(people AND animals), you are a good person in my book. 

Sincerely, canyontrails


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## canyontrailgoats

And happybleats, I feel like this forum wouldn't even exist without you...you always keep things in line and keep friends from being enemies and- yeah you're just awesome like that


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## happybleats

Thank you Canyontrailgoats..we have a great group of folks here...we are like a family..we will have struggles and disagreements..but family sticks together through the no matter whats : )


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## AJSIHH

Thank you Canyontrailgoats. I am definitely concerned about the health of all my goats and am still definitely learning. I have only raised goats for 3 years and this is my second kidding season. I have a LOT to learn still. I just wanted to make it clear that I don't abuse my goats and just because a goat is smaller than average does not make it unhealthy. some lines are smaller than others as I am learning. And badmouthing is not my goal either. A resolution is. Goats are my passion, not a business. And Chapinranch has nice looking goats! Nothing bad intended against Abby's original breeder. They are just slightly smaller than others I have seen. Not from malnutrition, but genetics. They love their goats as much as I do I am sure. Who couldn't love goats?!


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces

AJSIHH-
Have you had fecals run before and after you wormed your goats with Levemisole (Prohibit drench)? And what dose were you using it at? I'm wondering if it is working in your herd, and what do you use for a coccidia prevention (and at what dose/for how many days)? I would also routinely check body condition scores of all your goats at least once a month. Sometimes we forget that they aren't always as big as they look under their hair, or that a big belly is most likely hay (or in a bad case, worms), and not a fat goat. 


Bertnut2- I hope Abigail picks up weight fast and will grow into the nice doe she can be!


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## TDG-Farms

Sounds like you got scammed. Does this place have a website we can... visit? >


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## NyGoatMom

AJSIHH said:


> Thank you Canyontrailgoats. I am definitely concerned about the health of all my goats and am still definitely learning. I have only raised goats for 3 years and this is my second kidding season. I have a LOT to learn still. I just wanted to make it clear that I don't abuse my goats and just because a goat is smaller than average does not make it unhealthy. some lines are smaller than others as I am learning. And badmouthing is not my goal either. A resolution is. Goats are my passion, not a business. And Chapinranch has nice looking goats! Nothing bad intended against Abby's original breeder. They are just slightly smaller than others I have seen. Not from malnutrition, but genetics. They love their goats as much as I do I am sure. Who couldn't love goats?!


So glad you are working toward a resolution  As for the goat in question, she does definitely appear to have a "potbelly" indicative of worms/parasites. And yes, I agree you waited too long on those hooves....her coat tells me something is wrong...it's too rough even for shedding. Hopefully the vet tests will come back and let bertnut know what to treat for and with.
I think the best thing you could do for your goats is to keep looking on this site and asking questions.There is a LOT to goat health and nutrition and it is not something you can learn overnight. I would suggest you ask lots of questions and maybe post some pics of your other goats so people can help you to see what to look for.
And yes, goats are awesome


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## Stacykins

AJSIHH said:


> Thank you Canyontrailgoats. I am definitely concerned about the health of all my goats and am still definitely learning. I have only raised goats for 3 years and this is my second kidding season. I have a LOT to learn still. I just wanted to make it clear that I don't abuse my goats and just because a goat is smaller than average does not make it unhealthy. some lines are smaller than others as I am learning. And badmouthing is not my goal either. A resolution is. Goats are my passion, not a business. And Chapinranch has nice looking goats! Nothing bad intended against Abby's original breeder. They are just slightly smaller than others I have seen. Not from malnutrition, but genetics. They love their goats as much as I do I am sure. Who couldn't love goats?!





chapinranch said:


> *The Dam of said goat weight of this goat was weighed as of tonight and she is 52 lbs and the Sire to this doeling in question is a stocky big buck . I have attached a picture of Said buck*


This proves that the doe is *NOT* from a tiny line of goats, as the seller in claiming. The stunted size is due to poor husbandry/worming practices/coccidia prevention/etc.


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## cher1190

I visited the Iherdholler FB page, I'm thinking they have Way too many animals and breeding programs going on, without proper help,care and feeding in place. I saw rabbits, pigs and LOTS of goats, too many breeds, way too little time. They def need to downsize .


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## kccjer

I visited the fb page too. Their animals all look well cared for. This could be just one that flew under the radar until now too. Too many animals and need to downsize? You could say that of a lot people...me included. Doesn't mean that their animals are not taken care of....doesn't mean they are either. I think since the seller is trying to work towards resolution we all need to back off and see what happens. The seller was also willing to come on here and TELL us that she was willing to work towards a resolution so we need to keep in mind that she IS willing to figure out what happened too. 

Having said all that....I'd probably still send the sheriff out to her place just to check and make sure that the animals are all in as good condition as her fb pics suggest.


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## Chadwick

With the seller Ajsihh coming here to make piece I feel like this was probably not a case of intentional neglect. Anyone who didn't care wouldn't care enough to come here and tell their side of it, an animal neglecting farm would just ignore it. To me this is some proof that it may be an inefficient wormer or medication schedule or some other thing. 

I don't know if I would have the gumption to come on here like they did that took a lot, and I can respect that


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## still

Chadwick said:


> With the seller Ajsihh coming here to make piece I feel like this was probably not a case of intentional neglect. Anyone who didn't care wouldn't care enough to come here and tell their side of it, an animal neglecting farm would just ignore it. To me this is some proof that it may be an inefficient wormer or medication schedule or some other thing.
> 
> I don't know if I would have the gumption to come on here like they did that took a lot, and I can respect that


I agree.......that took a lot of guts and swallowing pride for sure!!


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## Trickyroo

I can see your point. But……hair loss as this goat has , pot belly and just overall condition is a major red flag that something isn't right with this animal. If the rest of the herd looks ok , shouldn't this one animal stick out like a sore thumb ? I don't see how this could be overlooked.
Idk , maybe I'm wrong…..Im happy to see the seller is wanting to make things right here….maybe a little too late though , not for the animal or the buyer , but to let a animal get to that condition and not do anything about it till someone else points it out just tells me they wouldnt have blinked a eye otherwise. I do hope I'm wrong. Im just feeling for the animals here.


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## takethelead

MsScamp said:


> But no one has referred to her as "a breeder", have they? It has only been "the breeder" and that is not only not accurate, it paints the actual breeder of this particular goat with the same brush as the seller. Why do you think terms like "buyer", "seller", "breeder", "trainer", etc were developed? To help prevent innocent people from being crucified for something they didn't do. Even if one keeps animals only as pets, I believe they have a responsibility to know, understand, and use the correct terms. I don't mean to lecture, nor am I singling you out, but this is something I feel very strongly about. Reputations and businesses have been destroyed overnight because someone didn't bother to learn and use the correct terminology.


Sent from my SCH-S738C using Goat Forum mobile app


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## happybleats

> I think since the seller is trying to work towards resolution we all need to back off and see what happens. The seller was also willing to come on here and TELL us that she was willing to work towards a resolution so we need to keep in mind that she IS willing to figure out what happened too.


THANK YOU KCCJER....This is what Im talking about...I know we all feel very passionate about the care or lack of...of animals..but lets not let this thread become about that...keep it focused on Abbies recovery and health...


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## Trickyroo

I need to back off this thread. Its getting too hot in here.
I do hope this gets resolved and the doe's health improves she thrives in her new home. If education is needed I know they will get a good dose of it here. No better place to learn IMO . Seller , stick around , learn and help get to the bottom of this does health issues. 
It did take a lot for you to come forward. I must say that. 
Good luck to you Bertnut2 , Abby couldnt be in better hands


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## JAR702

No bought them in east TN off CL


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## Chadwick

Chadwick said:


> With the seller Ajsihh coming here to make piece I feel like this was probably not a case of intentional neglect. Anyone who didn't care wouldn't care enough to come here and tell their side of it, an animal neglecting farm would just ignore it. To me this is some proof that it may be an inefficient wormer or medication schedule or some other thing.
> 
> I don't know if I would have the gumption to come on here like they did that took a lot, and I can respect that


This is not to say that I condone having animals in poor condition at all!
Just that I respect that she was willing to make it right and had the begonias to come and explain.


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## sweetgoats

First of all I would like to welcome AJSIHH here like we do everyone. Glad you are here and lets see what we can do to help. I give you lots of credit for coming here and that shows that nothing was done internationally in my opinion. :grouphug:

In her defense people, if you saw my goats, (pop belly, hair loss) you would be calling the sheriff on me I guess. I have a fecal float done on my goats and deworm ONLY when it is needed and the hair loss well the vet has even said they have no explanation other the Stress and shipping can sure cause that. All I am saying is please lets not judge and listen to AJSIHH an dhelp her like we do everyone here.

it sounds like this goat wis in great hands and will be back to where she should be, and for smaller size goats, yes that is VERY possible, I have been breeding for 14 years. I have some goats that are just smaller then the others, some from genetics and other well just nature. It is no different then people. My have a son that is 6-2 and a daughter that is 5-2, same parent. 

I do like this forum because everyone here is so good to helping each other and lets help out AJSIHH like we do everyone else.


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## happybleats

> I do like this forum because everyone here is so good to helping each other and lets help out AJSIHH like we do everyone else


.

I agree, this is the first forum I stayed with...its a great group!!


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## COgoatLover25

I'm not trying to start an argument and someone please correct me if I am being disrespectful or wrong. But am I the only one who thinks that 19lb. and 52lb. Is a big difference ? 
And how could the seller not know? I have been in goats for only 2yrs. And I know that. The goat in question does not look like it has been fed mineral. Doesn't the seller have a vet? Surely a vet would say something about the condition of the goat? I don't think this is just genetics , while some Nigerians do range in size I have never seen a full grown Nigerian that weighed 19lb.
This is certainly not the breeders fault , they have very nice goats 
Again , someone please correct me if I'm wrong 

Bertnut- I really hope she turns out for you 


Home to Reg. Nubians, Nigerians, and meat goats.


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## happybleats

COgoatLover25 no one is arguing the point that Abby is in bad shape..way under sized...or that the seller should have known..we are just trying to move on and focus on her recovery and health...;-)


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## chelsboers

I think this thread has strayed from it's original purpose, which was to give advice regarding treatment/contacting the seller. The seller has been notified and said she plans on working with the original poster. Now the thread is just going in circles. Personally I feel like this thread has gotten to a point where it's better left closed for them to work things out and if the original poster or even the seller has any more questions regarding further treatment they can post a new thread. JMO


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## Trickyroo

Ok , i untied my hands to type . I agree ^^^ let them work it out.
And hopefully what needs to be learned will be learned.


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## JAR702

To AJSIHH
I don't know you, don't know your heart BUT I can only speak for myself. Unfortunately you have gotten off on the wrong foot whether intentionally or not. I am a newbie and I am so thankful for this site, but even I doubt a few things, not saying they are true just that a doubt has been raised.
1. Why didn't the transporter pick up at your place?
2. Your FB page animals look healthy but then they are pictures just like the pictures that bertnut bought Abby from.
3. The parents were not small, yes a nugget can pop out; just saying
4. We all agree that stress from transporting can cause problems but the transporter was concerned right at the beginning.
I am trying to say this with a positive attitude, I hope you can understand why I think the way I do. Try to see the other side.
My suggestions are:
Find a local mentor
Eat crow, stay on the site and learn from everyone, everyone is very nice and helpful
We are not here to bash people, if we get excited it's because we all love our goats and animals.
I hope all works out for you and that this will be resolved to everyone's satisfaction


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## canyontrailgoats

Bertnut2, please keep us updated on how Abby recovers! Before and after pictures would be nice, and then you could post them on the "then...now.." thread. Good luck and turn Abby into a goat you will be proud of!! 

I'll talk to y'all later


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## toth boer goats

chapinranch said:


> On behalf of CR Precious Mini's we are the breeder of Abigail in question .She was sold to Iherdhollar. They sold her in this condition , she went to Iherdhollar at 2 months of age . Please be sure when referring to breeder being ignorant that you are talking about the correct farm .The dam is Mathiot's Paradise AJ Twila which we owned and Sire is Mathiot's Paradise CK Geronimo which we still own . Is the Dam and Sire of CR Precious Abigail. Iherdhollar did not breed this goat but the condition of her lies with them not CR Precious Mini's.


 I do have to apologize to CR Precious Mini's. 
I am truly sorry, you had to see this, I do not blame you at all. 
And a true fact is, this is how I came to be on TGS, someone was spreading false accusations about me and my goats. I did as you did and defended myself, which is the right thing to do and to wake up others to the facts and straighten things out.
I truly think others should apologize to you as well, they are out of line blaming you (the breeder).

OK all, we need to simmer down and stop this. I do agree the goat looks bad but,but is now in good care, at least the "seller" (not the breeder) sold her and decided, maybe, she/he didn't know how to take proper care? Maybe? 
Some people get the blocks and not the loose salt and minerals.

Not everyone has TGS or knows about it or has a mentor.
Or, this seller may not of known, the goat needed minerals ect. 
So there are so many questions that are not answered.
We cannot jump to conclusions here or judge so harshly without knowing facts.

I have to be on this breeders side here. This is the "original breeder" and she has nothing to do with the condition that the goat is in now. We cannot control how a goat is treated or cared for when it leaves our hands.

Slamming or turning in to authorities, another breeder or seller without facts of the situation is unfair. What would you think if someone did that to you. I for one had a hard time , I pulled a muscle in my arm and the goats were so negected with their hooves,took months to get better. I couldn't do it and did not have the money to hire someone, am I a bad goat momma? I did eventually catch up, but some goats hooves grow really quickly.

Another example is, years ago, I bought a horse for $16 a the auction, felt sorry for him, he was 700 lbs, when he should of been 1,500 lbs, he was 16 hands high a pile of bones. We took him home with the tag still on him, got his teeth floated, trimmed and started him on alfalfa pellets ect. to find, a couple of days later, someone turned it in to animal control and they impounded him,right out of our field no warning at all, we had to pay the big fee to get him out of animal control. We had the receipt from the auction on us and they said, you still have to pay the fee, it was so unfair. So see, we must not jump to conclusions, know all the facts first.
We got his weight up and he was healthy.

Starting things on facebook or here for that matter is out of line 
and not permitted. No naming names.

"Breeder: the original owner/breeder of that animal.
"Buyer" the one who buys from the original breeder or, from another who resales it to another buyer down the road.

Remember keep it friendly, keep it fun.


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## Trickyroo

Lesson learned :sigh:


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## chapinranch

[/quote]
I do have to apologize to CR Precious Mini's. 
I am truly sorry, you had to see this, I do not blame you at all. 
And a true fact is, this is how I came to be on TGS, someone was spreading false accusations about me and my goats. I did as you did and defended myself, which is the right thing to do and to wake up others to the facts and straighten things out.
I truly think others should apologize to you as well, they are out of line blaming you (the breeder).

Thank you very much 
Toth boer goats apology greatly accepted and well written post as well


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## AJSIHH

Everyone, we have reached an agreement with this situation. I dearly love Abby. And yes I take responsibility for her hooves. Her fur was rough but I thought it was just winter shedding as all my goats looked rough for about a month. They are all sleek and shiny now. I just thought her fur was rough. And I am not the only person who thought Abby and her parents were tinier than other Nigerians. I have quite a few witnesses with that. And I did not buy Abby at 2 months old. She was older than that. I have only been raising goats for 3 years. This is my second kidding season. I have a LOT to learn. I know my goats are deficient in copper. I have never bolused but am getting ready to for the first time. So that is more than likely a huge problem with Abby's fur. I have not done fecals on my goats right after worming with Levamisol. My vet told me it worked so I took his word for it. But maybe I should do a fecal now. None of this was intentional. Otherwise I would not be replying to anything. This is weighing heavy on me. I have repeat buyers quite often. Why would people come back to buy from the same herd if that herd sells sickly goats? That doesn't make sense. I have lots of repeat buyers. I always welcome anyone potential buyer to come to my farm and encourage them to look at the other goats and the situation they are in! I always am honest and up front. I have nothing to hide. Anyone is welcome to see the farm. And yes I did get too many animals all at once. I am in the process of cutting back. I LOVE all animals and went too far and was overwhelmed. But I do have help so everyone gets taken care of. I am just trying to get my numbers more manageable. I am trying to get started as a well known breeder. I would not sell a goat that I honestly thought was sick if I was trying to get a good reputation. I wish Abby the best and am so glad she went to someone who cares so much about her.


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## canyontrailgoats

I'm glad you've reached an agreement - and I sincerely hope you become a successful breeder who's well known for producing beautiful goats.

Good luck, and remember that TGS is always here for you!


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## Stacykins

AJSIHH said:


> And I am not the only person who thought Abby and her parents were tinier than other Nigerians. I have quite a few witnesses with that.


Her breeder is *here* and has _proven_ that the dam and sire of Abby are *not* smaller than average Nigerians...


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## canyontrailgoats

Yes AJSIHH, I highly suggest you get a fecal done that includes cocci first thing, then treat your goats accordingly. I bet once you do that, you'll see a difference in their growth and condition. Abby's parents are good sized, so I'm certain abbys size is due to cocci and what not.

But anyways there's no need to start arguing again, everything's said and done.


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## Bertnut2

Iherdholler and I have come to a resolution and I trust she will follow through. In addition, she wants to be updated on Abby's condition and further vet reports. This shows her concern but also she feels this could help with other management she may need to do in her herd. Although I feel as many do that I don't understand how she couldn't notice her condition, or the huge difference in the pictures she sent and the goat I received, I guess sometimes we get so used to seeing an animal or person we don't always see the changes as easy. I LOVE TGS and I expressed to Amanda today how much I've learned on here. I incorporated BOSS, alfalfa pellets, and cut back on my feed from things I learned on this site. This is the place for solid and helpful information. I am very passionate about my goats and animals in general as I can see many of you are. There has been much back and forth about original breeder and the seller differences. I want to state that Danielle Chapin, "original breeder"has been in constant contact with me concerning Abby's parents and health and her sadness about this doe. Also, Amanda has kept in touch with me to get this resolved. I will keep everyone updated on future information I receive once the lab reports come back. I hope to be able up post new better pictures of Abby and her progress soon. I thank you all so much got your help and valuable information to myself and ALL newbies in the goat world. 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## toth boer goats

It all sounds like a blessing is coming out in all this. 

We need to help each other, not work against. Some breeders and goat lovers may need that extra, word to say hey, that goat needs this or that. 
In which, they may not of known. 

Encouragement in a nice way or tone, is a good way to handle things, remember, when we help others, it is paid forward. 
Those others share the helping hand and causes a chain reaction to do good in this world. I know this world needs more of it.

Negativity and assumptions gets us no where

I am really happy everyone is working together, to get this poor goat back on track again.
She may not get all her growth back, if cocci or worms is an issue, but we can see her healthy again. which is important.



Loose salt and minerals is good to have out free choice with copper, selenium and iodine. 

It is good she will be getting a copper bolus and a fecal will let you know, if cocci and worms are issues.


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## toth boer goats

Stacykins said:


> Her breeder is *here* and has _proven_ that the dam and sire of Abby are *not* smaller than average Nigerians...


Keep it friendly, keep it fun.


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## liz

My sincerest apologies to all involved in this thread that I have not been here to aid in all that has transpired with Abby 

I am in PA as I have seen a few other members say they are my "neighbor" and though I do think that most often, a heart and love for animals can overtake the mind when it comes to managing them to be healthy... we can all agree that taking care of an animal goes further than just meeting basic needs, they also need to have your time for attention to the small details that not every one will show, when numbers are too high to be able to manage easily, some can get lost amongst the herd and be too far off before any notice is taken.
I can say that on behalf of Abby's breeder, she does have some healthy looking and beautiful nigerians, and I have seen many herds here in PA that have "smaller scale" nigerians and personally, I simply do not care for those builds and breed for correctness and dairy genetics BUT I have had a few kids born here who have turned out to be much smaller than I expected, given the genetics I work with. I currently have a doeling who is 3 months old and is smaller than the 4 week old bucklings who have the same sire she does so throwbacks happen and when they do, sometimes they aren't caught until something goes off with them, in my case with Sweet Pea, it was a fight with cocci and being the smaller of quads that contributed to her size. Which is the reason why she is not for sale as this is not a kid that I would sell to possibly become someone elses heartache. Even with a budget for feed, hay etc. and the fact that I still have wethers and bucklings available, this doeling simply will not be sold just because I need to have funds to cover the basics. 

It sounds as though the seller truly is trying to make this right, she came here for all to see her side and to acknowledge that Abby is unthrifty, being new to goats and jumping in with both feet with breeding and selling is overwhelming to anyone, and not truly understanding the effects of proper management with feed, minerals and scrutiny for signs of cocci or worm overloads in any goat, young or old can become a problem very fast. I have been lucky enough to be able to have contact with those who have bought kids from me and I can say that I have been sent pictures of "my" kids as they have grown and a few times with different goats, my heart has sunk upon seeing them, having a healthy kid leave here and be a productive member of another herd is my goal but when they leave and are managed in a different manner they don't adapt to and I see those results in how they look in their new home, it just saddens me but I can only give advice, it's up to the new owner to follow through, so placing blame upon the breeder is often the wrong direction as it is the current owner who has the responsibility of keeping that goat healthy.
Each of you have made TGS the friendly place it is, we all can handle anger and frustration in a healthy manner and I think are open minded enough to offer help where we see fit and embrace those who don't know at the moment that they do need our help. The blessing in all of this is that we are available to support Abby on her road to health with her new owner as well as support her seller in any changes in management needed so that she can become the reputable breeder she is aiming to be.


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## canyontrailgoats

Amen


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## GreenMountainNigerians

I second that amen!


Sent from my iPad using Goat Forum


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## COgoatLover25

We have a third amen!


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## Trickyroo

Going……going…….


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## Jessica84

I only skimmed threw this since I replied. I apologize to the seller. You coming on here has proved me wrong that you were simply just trying to get money and push something not up to par for a par price. And I'm gonna stand up for her a bit. We have all been new to goats. We have all learned things the hard way. This doeling might have been wormy and let face it it's a little frustrating to learn what wormers you can use on a goat and if you should work so many months or the fecal first Ect Ect. She might have been the smaller one in the herd and got pushed to the side. And so many other things of why this girl is thin. And sadly some times you don't know there is a issue till you notice that they are loosing weight. The seller wants to make it right and good for you. I think you have a good heart and are doing the right thing 
I saw a question of why the hauler was not met at the ranch to pick her up. This to me is not a odd thing. I meet sellers away from my place at times. Nothing to do with hiding anything. I live in the middle of no where. If I were to give you my address and you used the gps road thing it would tell you to turn left a mile past my place right into a big oak tree. It is more easy then saying ok after you go past 2 passing lanes you will go up a hill when it starts to level out look to the left for a brown gate. Another thing. I met with someone not at their place because there is no way my trailer would make it up their drive way without taking out trees and rocks. 
I was also thinking. The one and only seller I have bought a goat from without looking at it first was crossroads. She was great. The day before the hauler was going to meet with her she took pictures of diamonds to make sure there was no issue. This is a good idea for any sellers or buyers. If need be take a picture of the animal before it's going to ship. That way as a seller you can say look I showed the buyer what she was getting. And as a buyer you can back out and say no that's not what I was expecting. I wish both the seller and the buyer luck 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## AJSIHH

I have been reading the previous posts and feel I need to clarify something. The transport lady had a large van. My driveway is too small for her to turn around and I live in the woods in a valley. My home was only 100 feet APX from where I met that lady at the top of my own driveway. My goats had a pen that was only 20 feet from where I met the transport lady. There was simply too many trees to see any of that because I live in a valley in the woods! I welcome ANYONE to see my farm. But this lady had too big of a vehicle to be able to turn around at all in my driveway. I wish people would be less quick to judge and jump to conclusions. There is always another part to the story.


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## Trickyroo

Im glad you clarified that AJSIHH. Its rather easy to jump to conclusions. Put yourself in the receiving end. The does unthrifty condition…..meeting in another place other then the sellers farm…..
It happens. Its good you straightened that out.


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## 4seasonsfarm

Trickyroo said:


> Going&#8230;&#8230;going&#8230;&#8230;.


Gone!! haha

Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


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## 4seasonsfarm

AJSIHH said:


> I have been reading the previous posts and feel I need to clarify something. The transport lady had a large van. My driveway is too small for her to turn around and I live in the woods in a valley. My home was only 100 feet APX from where I met that lady at the top of my own driveway. My goats had a pen that was only 20 feet from where I met the transport lady. There was simply too many trees to see any of that because I live in a valley in the woods! I welcome ANYONE to see my farm. But this lady had too big of a vehicle to be able to turn around at all in my driveway. I wish people would be less quick to judge and jump to conclusions. There is always another part to the story.


We were quick to misjudge but this doe you sold this woman still has parasites and worms... Which means you more than likely have that in the rest of your herd which saling goats like this can give you a bad reputation and you will lose a lot of business:/ you need to do as much as possible to keep them healthy and looking there best what wormer do you use if you use safeguard I would not use that stuff I would use ivermectin it's really great

Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


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## JAR702

I know that there is always two sides to a story and I think that we all are starting to understand AJSIHH's side, I hope she can understand my side. I just wanted the best for the goat or any goat. I always learn from this site and definitely learned from this post. Until we heard from AJSIHH we only had one side of the story.
1. If everyone didn't know that I had rescued a 6 month old pygmy that was already pregnant they would of thought I bred her irresponsibly. 
2.I am new to goats and have 5, I was thinking of getting more. After reading all the posts I know I should stay with what I have and learn ALOT more before I expand.
3. We are all individual and come to this forum with different beliefs, mindsets and experiences. We should embrace our differences and learn from each other.
4. When Opal was birthing I saw the same fierceness from you all when you all were helping me to keep Opal from dying. I want you all in my court whether I am in need or in need of correction/direction because the true objective is our goats and their health and well-being.
5. I have one mentor that I bought my ND from but as wonderful as she is, she is just one person, I am so glad to have hundreds to ask questions to and to learn from.
This is my last post on this subject and I am going to take all of this and learn from it and move forward. I do pray that we will see pictures of Abby and her progress and that ASJIHH stays on this forum.
God Bless you all
Humbly
Janis
P.S. When I say something I am talking to myself also because God knows I fall short every day.
:grouphug:


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## toth boer goats

Well said.


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## Trickyroo

4seasonsfarm said:


> Gone!! haha
> 
> Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


:hi5:


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## AJSIHH

I also have Valbazen and Cydectin on hand, but only wormed Abby with Levamisol. My vet told me it was the best wormer now. But I definitely will do fecals on all my goats to make sure of it now! Since it apparently isn't working as well as it needs to be. Thank you everyone for helping me and Abby. I am glad to have found this site with so many knowledgeable people.


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## chelsboers

AJSIHH said:


> I also have Valbazen and Cydectin on hand, but only wormed Abby with Levamisol. My vet told me it was the best wormer now. But I definitely will do fecals on all my goats to make sure of it now! Since it apparently isn't working as well as it needs to be. Thank you everyone for helping me and Abby. I am glad to have found this site with so many knowledgeable people.


I get samples from several goats at a time from different pens and different age groups and send them here. http://www.midamericaagresearch.net/instructions.php
It's the cheapest place I've found. Good luck!


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## canyontrailgoats

I love happy endings


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## MrsSneelock

JAR702, you said all of that SO well. Number 4 especially resonates with me. This group of people rocks, and it is so much more powerful than the other sites because this group tries to teach people rather than slam them. The people here love goats number one. Someday I hope to be able to offer that kind of experience. Until then, I'm learning as fast as I can. And I know I'm not alone. Getting down off my bucket now...


----------



## toth boer goats

Another well said. :wink:

We are glad all of you are here and will help with any questions you may have.
No question is dumb, never feel that way here.

TGS is a super friendly Forum, we care about people and all animals. :thumbup:


----------



## Trickyroo

Group hug ! :grouphug: :-D


----------



## toth boer goats

I'll go for that.


----------



## COgoatLover25

:grouphug: me too!


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## Trickyroo

Sooooo…….how bout them Yankees


----------



## NyGoatMom

*cricket*....*cricket*....... :|


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## canyontrailgoats

Lovely weather today...


----------



## NyGoatMom

ahuh.


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## canyontrailgoats

You know something? This is the only goat forum I actually LIKE. I mean the others are helpful and all, but on this site we're like...family you know? We have our differences and disagreements at times, but we always stick together in the end. We're like one big happy family that works together to make goat raising fun and exciting. NO ONE can deny that they learn something new on here everyday, or that they get all excited over seeing member's new kids, or that they feel sympathy for someone going through hard times. And my favorite part of this forum is that we welcome new people with open arms, without being all judgmental and "cliquey" like in other places. Another member is another friend, and another valuable asset to our learning experience. I've come to love TGS and appreciate how helpful and caring everyone is here. And I'm sure you all feel the same as me on the matter  .


Did I make the convo a little more interesting nygoatmom?


----------



## 4seasonsfarm

ahuh haha



Sent from Malory who is awesome!! 14 yo, has goats and a donkey


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## Trickyroo

I LOVE this forum and all the people here ! There is no other place I could have learned all I have in such a short time. And I trust where the knowledge is coming from. We have a great group of friends here .
Everyone is very encouraging and helpful and we all get along. Even when there is a disagreement we can come back together and offer help or condolence or maybe just a hug to someone who needs it. Even is people just don't get along , we are still civil and respect each others opinions . I haven't had really any experience on other forums , but i couldnt imagine leaving here of another one. I may lurk around in others for a day or two , looking to read and learn more , but i found myself coming back here. I always feel comfortable asking questions , especially since I'm still rather new to a lot of things. Everyone is so willing to jump in and help , sharing their own experiences and fixes.
And we all have a sense of humor which is so important because it makes everyone feel relaxed and lets go of the stress. 
We love our goats and want the best for them. When you can disagree and can come back together in the end , that shows true friendship IMO.
Just saying


----------



## Chadwick

You hit the nail on the head, information is not always the answer. You need to know that you don't have to second guess the info. here I know that I can trust it, there are people here that are better than a vet as far as goats go! 

That and truly friendly loving people, not just nice to you but really care about you......even stick up for you.........haha


----------



## happybleats

you all are so mooshy ...lol...:mrgreen:


we do have a great group here for sure!!


----------



## mayia97420

I don't know any other forum as welcoming and helpful for newbies like me.


----------



## Trickyroo

mayia97420 said:


> I don't know any other forum as welcoming and helpful for newbies like me.


Mooshy ?:ROFL:


----------



## toth boer goats

Mooshy, I love it and all have such beautiful mooshy words to say, LOL 
Mooshy is a good thing. We are a mooshy family aren't we. :-D


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## Trickyroo

Cannot be confused with woozy though , not before 12 anyway


----------



## toth boer goats

LOL:laugh:


----------



## Bertnut2

An update for everyone: 
I am happy to report Abby has gained 1.4 lbs since I got her on Tuesday evening. She is adjusting but still cries from still getting adjusted but that will get better. I'm sure she wants to eat more. I keep telling her slow and steady but I don't think she agrees. Lol
Sadly I have gotten the vet report back. To me, it's pretty bad. 
She has chewing lice, coccidia, and several types of worms with long names. He said her worm load is a moderate level but her weight makes it more a concern. 
He said I need to treat the lice and worms for the first 5 days and then the coccidia for 5 days. All at the same time would be too much for her at her size. So today starts even more for her in the path to get healthy. 
He suggested safeguard for the worms. I haven't gone to TSC for meds yet but any suggestion on the lice meds? Or what's best for coccidia? I've not had to treat don't of these things for my girls. I'm open to suggestions but remember she may be bred. 



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## canyontrailgoats

Oh wow, that's a lot of worms  . Maybe, ivermectin plus? I think that treats internal and external parasites. 

I heard that it's helpful to start herbal on severely wormy goats. Maybe as you use the chemical wormer you can give her garlic drenches or something...


----------



## chelsboers

canyontrailgoats said:


> Oh wow, that's a lot of worms  . Maybe, ivermectin plus? I think that treats internal and external parasites.
> 
> I heard that it's helpful to start herbal on severely wormy goats. Maybe as you use the chemical wormer you can give her garlic drenches or something...


I agree. I would skip the Safeguard and give Ivomec instead. It treats lice and worms


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## NyGoatMom

Can you shave her down and use Python dust for the lice? I agree, I would use Ivomec for the worms...but I would use it orally. How are her eyelids?


----------



## Bertnut2

NyGoatMom said:


> Can you shave her down and use Python dust for the lice? I agree, I would use Ivomec for the worms...but I would use it orally. How are her eyelids?


Yes we can. I think shaving her down now is a good idea. Should I be dusting her bedding area?

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## NyGoatMom

Yes, clean it thoroughly and dust it. Then repeat in ten days.....


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## goathiker

I'm going to go the other way on this. I wouldn't do Ivomec yet. 

I would give Safeguard for 3 days to kill*some* of the worms
CyLence pour on for the lice
Treat for cocci

Then Safeguard another 3 days to kill*some more* of the worms
The Ivomec or Cydectin...


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## Trickyroo

I would definitely make her comfortable with a nice shave and a lice treatment. Once that is done , and she feels a bit better , then hit the worm load. Just my opinion  Might be easier for her to handle it all when she is feeling a bit more comfortable without the lice on her.
What was your vets opinion on her possible pregnancy ? This poor doe has sooo many hoops to jump through to become healthy , i feel so bad for her  But you will do it ! I have full faith in you and your dedication to her. God bless the both of you .


----------



## NyGoatMom

goathiker said:


> I'm going to go the other way on this. I wouldn't do Ivomec yet.
> 
> I would give Safeguard for 3 days to kill*some* of the worms
> CyLence pour on for the lice
> Treat for cocci
> 
> Then Safeguard another 3 days to kill*some more* of the worms
> The Ivomec or Cydectin...


I did wonder that Jill......I'd follow Jill's advice on the deworming.


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## Bertnut2

We are waiting for 3 weeks to blood test for CAE, Johne's and CL and we will test for preg then. He did not comment on that this time. He thinks we can get her better, just one step at a time. 


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## NyGoatMom

I hope the seller sees this, then she will know what to treat her herd for....

Darn worms, such a pain!


----------



## Bertnut2

Trickyroo said:


> I would definitely make her comfortable with a nice shave and a lice treatment. Once that is done , and she feels a bit better , then hit the worm load. Just my opinion  Might be easier for her to handle it all when she is feeling a bit more comfortable without the lice on her.
> What was your vets opinion on her possible pregnancy ? This poor doe has sooo many hoops to jump through to become healthy , i feel so bad for her  But you will do it ! I have full faith in you and your dedication to her. God bless the both of you .


Thank you for the blessings. Abby and I both appreciate them. She's so sweet and I am determined one day she will be beautiful and healthy.

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## canyontrailgoats

Good idea, the last thing you want to do is kill her with kindness. I always want to make them instantly better right away, but that can do more harm than good.


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## Bertnut2

NyGoatMom said:


> I hope the seller sees this, then she will know what to treat her herd for....
> 
> Darn worms, such a pain!


NYGoatMom, 
I emailed her all the results she would know. If you recall she did not like that I saw bald spots and sores but I guess chewing lice was the cause. She will definitely need to check her herd for that also.

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## takethelead

I've had an experience similar to this one, my doe is still currently recovering. She had an immense worm load and chewing lice as well. I treated the lice first by shaving her down dusting her and her bedding. then used ivermectin to kill the worms. but thankfully she didn't have cocci. Hoping for the best for you guys! 

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## Bertnut2

Bertnut2 said:


> Yes we can. I think shaving her down now is a good idea. Should I be dusting her bedding area?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


Eyelids for color? Or something else?

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## happybleats

poor mama...lice is such a pain to rid...Cylence is good along with treating the bedding...shaving helps a ton and a lots of brushing makes "home" there uncomfortable for the lice..

I think goathikers idea is good, to kill the worm slowly..allow her body to absorb with out getting toxicity from too much too fast..Then finish with Ivomec Plus...after doing the safeguard you can do the ivomec plus orally at 1 cc per 30#.. I would keep C D Antitoxin on hand in case she needs a little help...
for cocci, I would get Baycox if you have time..give her 1 cc per 5# then repeat in 10 days, less meds but works great....rest a week and have a fecal done to see if all wormers are working for her....
you can add alfalfa pellets to her food to give her "more" without over loading with consentrated feed..

best wishes


----------



## happybleats

lower inner eye lids should be deep pink to red...show if she is anemic


----------



## anawhitfield

I am somewhat new at keeping goats but just to encourage you, I bought a Nubian in a similar predicament back in Nov 2012. In Jan 2013 she had twins, they both ended up dying from one thing or another. She had orf, was extremely skinny, loaded with worms, just in bad, bad shape. One morning I literally found her stiff, on her back with her legs up in the air. When I went to pick her up (thinking she was dead) she jumped up. It took a while but you can see how she slowly progressed. 
I hope this encourages you that if an inexperienced goat owner such as myself can do this, you can too. 
Prayers for you and your baby-girl.


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## Bertnut2

happybleats said:


> poor mama...lice is such a pain to rid...Cylence is good along with treating the bedding...shaving helps a ton and a lots of brushing makes "home" there uncomfortable for the lice..
> 
> I think goathikers idea is good, to kill the worm slowly..allow her body to absorb with out getting toxicity from too much too fast..Then finish with Ivomec Plus...after doing the safeguard you can do the ivomec plus orally at 1 cc per 30#.. I would keep C D Antitoxin on hand in case she needs a little help...
> for cocci, I would get Baycox if you have time..give her 1 cc per 5# then repeat in 10 days, less meds but works great....rest a week and have a fecal done to see if all wormers are working for her....
> you can add alfalfa pellets to her food to give her "more" without over loading with consentrated feed..
> 
> best wishes


I do feed alfalfa pellets with my grain/boss mix I give all my girls. I figured those are great for her and she loves them.

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## Bertnut2

anawhitfield said:


> I am somewhat new at keeping goats but just to encourage you, I bought a Nubian in a similar predicament back in Nov 2012. In Jan 2013 she had twins, they both ended up dying from one thing or another. She had orf, was extremely skinny, loaded with worms, just in bad, bad shape. One morning I literally found her stiff, on her back with her legs up in the air. When I went to pick her up (thinking she was dead) she jumped up. It took a while but you can see how she slowly progressed.
> I hope this encourages you that if an inexperienced goat owner such as myself can do this, you can too.
> Prayers for you and your baby-girl.


This is VERY encouraging. Thanks Ana!!! I'm pretty new myself but I'm going to do my best.

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## Stacykins

goathiker said:


> I'm going to go the other way on this. I wouldn't do Ivomec yet.
> 
> I would give Safeguard for 3 days to kill*some* of the worms
> CyLence pour on for the lice
> Treat for cocci
> 
> Then Safeguard another 3 days to kill*some more* of the worms
> The Ivomec or Cydectin...


Quoted because it sounds like a fantastic course of action to hit her parasite load with safeguard first, then either ivermectin plus (safe for pregnant animals) or Cydectin afterwards.

The safeguard three days in a row would kill all that can kill. There are a lot of resistances to that medication nowadays, which is why a followup with something else would work best.

*When you treat with the second wormer, give once. Then give it again ten days later. And again another 10 days later. Then, finally, finish up with a dose 30 days later. Basically to kill those worms at all stages and lifecycles. Treating a single time wouldn't get them all. So basically you give the first dose, then a second ten days after the first, a third ten days after the second, and a fourth 30 days after the third. Clear as mud? Hah! *

I'm going to go against the grain and say it would be best to give ivermectin plus via the *injectable route*. That way, she cannot spit out any of the dose. You know she gets the dose she needs in its entirety. Plus, the injectable route is better with a high worm load, which it absolutely sounds like is the case with her. An underdose, if she spat some out, would lead to those parasites in her becoming resistant because she didn't get enough to kill them.

MAYBE I'm a stickler because I work in the medical industry...but a medication needs to be delivered via the intended route. If the bottle says it is for injection, it needs to be given by injection. If a bottle says the medication is topical, it needs to be given topically, not orally.


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## NyGoatMom

Ana~ any more recent pics? i remember that thread, she is a beautiful doe


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## Bertnut2

Nothing at my tractor supply for lice. Did I read that I can use Seven powder before? 
Or I found they have ivermectin pour on for cattle. Will that work? 

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## happybleats

7 dust will work as well..python dust...put some in an old sock and pat her down..avoid nose and eye area...: )


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## happybleats

> MAYBE I'm a stickler because I work in the medical industry...but a medication needs to be delivered via the intended route. If the bottle says it is for injection, it needs to be given by injection. If a bottle says the medication is topical, it needs to be given topically, not orally.


I too feel this way...but I understand once the heavy load is taken care of , oral is safe...I still always inject ivomec plus..never oral..but many have had success with this...since she may use safeguard first its cuts that risk...


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## Bertnut2

happybleats said:


> I too feel this way...but I understand once the heavy load is taken care of , oral is safe...I still always inject ivomec plus..never oral..but many have had success with this...since she may use safeguard first its cuts that risk...


I got safeguard to start.

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## AJSIHH

Yes I have seen the issues that the vet says Abby has. I was using Dectomax for all external parasites, Baycox for Coccidia, and Levamisol for the worms, ALL of those were recommended by my vet. I will definitely be switching vets and finding some new meds to give my goats. Abby was on coccidia treatment until she was a year old with Baycox and or Noble Goat medicated feed. I have been reading up on the lice and read that if a goat has lice, it means they are missing some sort of mineral causing their bodies to be weaker therefore letting the lice prey on them. Well, I know all my goats need copper which is why I've ordered boluses. So possibly just some good minerals and copper could clear up the lice. But it is apparent that I shouldn't use Baycox or Levamisol anymore.


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## canyontrailgoats

Most wormers become less effective over time, especially if used frequently because the parasites become immune to it. 

And I heard that as well, goats that are copper deficient are "weakened" and more susceptible to worms/lice.


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## takethelead

AJSIHH said:


> Yes I have seen the issues that the vet says Abby has. I was using Dectomax for all external parasites, Baycox for Coccidia, and Levamisol for the worms, ALL of those were recommended by my vet. I will definitely be switching vets and finding some new meds to give my goats. Abby was on coccidia treatment until she was a year old with Baycox and or Noble Goat medicated feed. I have been reading up on the lice and read that if a goat has lice, it means they are missing some sort of mineral causing their bodies to be weaker therefore letting the lice prey on them. Well, I know all my goats need copper which is why I've ordered boluses. So possibly just some good minerals and copper could clear up the lice. But it is apparent that I shouldn't use Baycox or Levamisol anymore.


I've had the same problem with my wormers giving out on me after I had been using them for a longtime, I've also heard about the deficiency leading goats to be more susceptible to lice. I have finally learned to switch up the Routine from time to time. 

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## goathiker

Just a heads up on the Baycox. It doesn't say on it to refrigerate it but, it should be. It is packaged to be used in one dose on a horse. We who use it on goats must keep it in the refrigerator or it will become ineffective after being opened.


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## StaceyRosado

Great point goat hiker I didn't know that till this year. It is in their packaging though


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## toth boer goats

Great advice given.


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## goathiker

Good, I'm glad that the changed it. The last bottle I bought was 3 years ago and there was no directions for keeping it cold.


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## AJSIHH

Didn't know it needed to be refrigerated! No wonder it wasn't working.


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## JAR702

AJSIHH- you might want to look in to natural dewormer in addition to the chemical dewormer, the natural isn't hard on the goats and they don't build up a resistance. Isn't everyone so helpful.

BERTNUT2- I am glad to hear Abby is on the mend, please keep us updated on her progress.

:-D


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## canyontrailgoats

Along with the chemical wormer, you could put raw Apple cider vinegar in their water daily. It helps repel worms and keeps them overall healthy.


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## liz

Another natural way to boost immunity against parasites is to give an abundance of Vit C rich foods.... pine tree boughs (Blue Spruce, White Pine, Scotch Pine) are high in vitamin C and you can even give the chewable tablets. It won't get rid of parasites already there but will help the goats to be able to over come them easier.

Sounds like Abby is going to be a perfectly healthy doe in a few months time.... and , for chewing lice, I've used the Python dust from TSC on babies and milkers as well as their bedding with great results.


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## springkids

AJSIHH said:


> I also have Valbazen and Cydectin on hand, but only wormed Abby with Levamisol. My vet told me it was the best wormer now. But I definitely will do fecals on all my goats to make sure of it now! Since it apparently isn't working as well as it needs to be. Thank you everyone for helping me and Abby. I am glad to have found this site with so many knowledgeable people.


You may need to consult with your vet on dosage of Prohibit. It might something as simple as under dosing.

We had a very warm winter year before last and an unusually wet spring and summer. So needless to say we had a major worm issue even though we felt like we were constantly worming. We consulted with our vet and he recommended Prohibit and Dectomax. It was an absolute game changer for us. The health and looks of our animals changed so dramatically we could believe how well it worked.

Welcome to TGS and good luck!


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## springkids

If you have been using the same dewormer for a long period of time that could explain it losing it effectiveness. We had never used Prohibit or Dectomax until last year. Like I said we had great results.


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## ptgoats45

Just a note on the coccidia. All goats have coccidia, even adults just normally it is at a level where it does not harm the goat. When a goat is stressed the coccidia will "flare up" and basically take advantage of the goats' immune system being weak. A high wormload is stressful, plus being moved and having lice so I would take care of the worms first, have a follow up fecal done and see if her coccidia levels have dropped.

I use Baycox on my kids for coccidia and it works well.


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## Trickyroo

Can the Python dust be used on pregnant does ?
Just want to put that out there cause Abby might be pregnant.


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## sweetgoats

canyontrailgoats said:


> Most wormers become less effective over time, especially if used frequently because the parasites become immune to it.


 That is why I always say do a fecal float before you just deworm.

I never new to refrigerate Safeguard. I have had the bottle for a few years and I guess it is trash now.


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## goathiker

I think Safeguard is fine at room temperature. We were talking about Baycox needing refrigerated.


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## ksalvagno

Safeguard doesn't need to be refrigerated.


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## janeen128

Wow, just got through reading this thread... Best wishes to a full recovery for Abby, and a learning experience for all involved... I would like to recommend herbal wormers from fir meadows, to build up her immune system to parasites... I started using it about a year ago and I'm very happy with the results;-) Of course do the chemical ones first;-)
I'm looking forward to seeing a picture of her all healthy and happy....;-) Best Wishes!


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## Bertnut2

Today was one of my saddest days so far in this journey. Abby has had her Safeguard. Couldn't find any lice stuff at my closest tractor supply so the vet gave me a pyrethrum liquid to mix and spray. It's been raining a lot so today was the first good day to "liberally" spray her. He thought I should not shave her in attempt to keep her stress low and that her hair was so thin and fine it shouldn't be a problem. But I should have anyway because her hair came out in big clumps. It made me cry but she didn't seem to mind. She eats well and seems happy otherwise. Next is coccidia treatment, then I'll have another fecal done next week. 


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## janeen128

I'm kinda thinking that shaving her would be best, and would make her feel better. Just my opinion, as I haven't had to deal with anything like that...but I would be tempted too..


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## ThreeHavens

Oh, poor thing. And I'm so sorry for you too. My little girl with coccidia is juuust starting to show signs of improvement (still holding my breath and praying), and it's torn me up something good, with all the worry.


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## toth boer goats

Safeguard in our area does not work anymore. 

It may be best to shave her, any bugs do not like when they have nowhere to hide.
Unless it is to cold there.

If the weather is getting warm or hot. She may be shedding as well. As to why you might be seeing it come off in clumps.

I have one Doe that balds when she sheds before it comes in new.


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## Bertnut2

Another vet visit. Abby is positive for lungworms also. :0(. Took blood today to test for pregnancy since she was in with the buck and also CAE, CL, and Johne's. I think I've tested and dosed for about everything. I bought copper bolus but vet doesn't want me to give it to her. He said he feels we are just overloading her now and he wants to hold off till we are completed with everything else. She eats her loose minerals a lot so I feel she is trying to get what she needs. I'm having a tough time today feeling positive. I know she's gaining weight and getting better and I know this is going to take a long time but it's hard to feel excited. Sorry if I seem complainy..... 


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## ThreeHavens

That's very, very rough. Give her some probios ... and then she may just need some time and TLC. You are doing a FANTASTIC job.


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## NyGoatMom

Nope, I understand....I have a doeling I was sure would just never grow...but she is. Your girl will be slow to mend but she will :hug:


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## toth boer goats

It does get frustrating and very stressful, keep up the good work and she will do the rest, heal and get better, glad the vet seen her, hold off on the copper as the vet mentioned. If there is no fishtail , she isn't really bad deficient, if that is the case there.

Glad she is gaining weight, she is on the right track.

Some things take time and with the great love and care she is receiving, she should be great in no time.

Treat her for the lungworms, what did the vet say to use and how much so we know.
At least you know what she has, so it can be treated.

Prayers sent for her and you, keep up your strength, things should get better each day.


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## mayia97420

Unfortunately you have chosen a battle which is long and dragged out- your heart hurts for her and you want her better now- be sure and take care of yourself, this will wear you out and try your patience before its done. You are doing a great job and she will get better. It's called venting not complaining. We all understand and will be here for you when you need to vent.


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## Trickyroo

mayia97420 said:


> Unfortunately you have chosen a battle which is long and dragged out- your heart hurts for her and you want her better now- be sure and take care of yourself, this will wear you out and try your patience before its done. You are doing a great job and she will get better. It's called venting not complaining. We all understand and will be here for you when you need to vent.


Well said  We are all here for you and have tons of reassuring hugs for you and Abby :hugs::hugs::hugs:

Your doing a fantastic job and to feel a bit hopeless or down about this is totally understandable. Abby has a long road ahead of her , but she is doing wonderfully and improving leaps and bounds , even if it is hardly noticeable .
She had healing to do on the inside as well as the outside. Once she heals inside , she will start showing it on the outside. I can't wait to see her when she is back to health , I know she is going to be stunning


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## Bertnut2

Trickyroo said:


> Well said  We are all here for you and have tons of reassuring hugs for you and Abby :hugs::hugs::hugs:
> 
> Your doing a fantastic job and to feel a bit hopeless or down about this is totally understandable. Abby has a long road ahead of her , but she is doing wonderfully and improving leaps and bounds , even if it is hardly noticeable .
> 
> She had healing to do on the inside as well as the outside. Once she heals inside , she will start showing it on the outside. I can't wait to see her when she is back to health , I know she is going to be stunning


Thank you SO MUCH for the encouraging words Mayia and Tricky. She seems to be doing well except for not liking to be alone. I wish she would grow faster but at this point I guess there's no positive to her ever getting normal size. And I'm sure it will take some time.

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## Bertnut2

toth boer goats said:


> It does get frustrating and very stressful, keep up the good work and she will do the rest, heal and get better, glad the vet seen her, hold off on the copper as the vet mentioned. If there is no fishtail , she isn't really bad deficient, if that is the case there.
> 
> Glad she is gaining weight, she is on the right track.
> 
> Some things take time and with the great love and care she is receiving, she should be great in no time.
> 
> Treat her for the lungworms, what did the vet say to use and how much so we know.
> At least you know what she has, so it can be treated.
> 
> Prayers sent for her and you, keep up your strength, things should get better each day.


Thank you for the positive thoughts and prayers. The vet had her one Safeguard for 5 days, then coccidia meds for 5 days. When he came back to take blood for progesterone test, CAE, CL and such, he told us of the positive lungworms. We suspected anyway because she had terrible hacking. He said give her one more dose on 6/14 of Safeguard and we should have treated everything thoroughly. We are doing another fecal on all goats at June month end. He said all meds will be completely through her system.

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## Bertnut2

ThreeHavens said:


> That's very, very rough. Give her some probios ... and then she may just need some time and TLC. You are doing a FANTASTIC job.


ThreeHavens I have asked repeatedly about probios for her but he continues to say no. He seemed very cautious in giving her anything extra than meds and working up her food intake. Even though she has gained he's always concerned about her small size and ability to handle too much

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## Bertnut2

toth boer goats said:


> Safeguard in our area does not work anymore.
> 
> It may be best to shave her, any bugs do not like when they have nowhere to hide.
> Unless it is to cold there.
> 
> If the weather is getting warm or hot. She may be shedding as well. As to why you might be seeing it come off in clumps.
> 
> I have one Doe that balds when she sheds before it comes in new.


We have not shaved her yet but I will before her next lice treatment this week. Her hair was super fine, wispy and curly when I got her which the vet said was due to lack of nutrition and the worms. It is getting straight and thicker looking but I'm sure a good shaving will allow us to get the spray right where and leftover bugs will be. Than it can grow back nice and full.

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## Bertnut2

NyGoatMom said:


> Nope, I understand....I have a doeling I was sure would just never grow...but she is. Your girl will be slow to mend but she will :hug:


NYGoatMom- it is slow going but I have hopes that she will grow. MsScamp had mentioned them still growing up to 2 or 3, so I think with the added nutrition, she will flourish. My bf thinks not, but I think even if not full sized, she will get bigger.

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## Bertnut2

janeen128 said:


> Wow, just got through reading this thread... Best wishes to a full recovery for Abby, and a learning experience for all involved... I would like to recommend herbal wormers from fir meadows, to build up her immune system to parasites... I started using it about a year ago and I'm very happy with the results;-) Of course do the chemical ones first;-)
> I'm looking forward to seeing a picture of her all healthy and happy....;-) Best Wishes!


Janeen, is fir meadows a site I can look on for this? I don't know anything about herbal wormers but once the vet clears her from the chemical ones I can try adding this for an upkeep type of thing. Especially if it will help build up her immune system.

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## nchen7

you're doing an amazing job! keep up the great work! it's a long battle, but take it one step at a time and one day you're going to look at her and think "WOW! when did she get so big?!?"

just a note - safeguard may not be effective. seems like it doesn't work in many areas anymore, so keep track of the hacking. if she keeps hacking after using the safeguard, then you'll probably have to try ivomec. http://fiascofarm.com/goats/wormers.htm#safeguard

ETA: there are lots of sites for herbal wormers - Fir Meadows, Molly's (Fiasco Farm), and Land of Havilah.


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## toth boer goats

I agree, you are doing great.

She is well cared for and sounds like you have a good vet there.

Glad the fecals are being done and watched. 

Praying all will continue to mend.


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## janeen128

Bertnut2 said:


> Janeen, is fir meadows a site I can look on for this? I don't know anything about herbal wormers but once the vet clears her from the chemical ones I can try adding this for an upkeep type of thing. Especially if it will help build up her immune system.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


Yes, go to fir meadows.com and you will find a wide variety of herbal remedies. I use the D-worm and the GI soother, and my crew gets it twice a week. You give it for 3-5 days straight, and then to 1-3 times a week. I just sprinkle it on their grain after spraying some ACV/water mix, and they eat it right up. I tried the cookie method no luck, they wouldn't touch it.

You are doing great with her;-)


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## ptgoats45

Sorry if I missed the post, but have you gotten the results back on her tests? Definitely would like to hear an update on her


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## Bertnut2

ptgoats45 said:


> Sorry if I missed the post, but have you gotten the results back on her tests? Definitely would like to hear an update on her


Sorry for the delay ptgoats. When the vet came out he only took enough blood to check if she's bred and CAE. Both were negative. I'm really happy about that because babies on top of her poor condition would have been tough. Her weight now is all but 25 lbs. We shaved her when she had her most recent treatment of lice spray on last weekend and her skin was pretty bad. It was looked like dandruff and a babies cradle cap. But now a week later it looks great. Even her hair that's growing back is more course and seems full. She had her last safeguard treatment on Saturday and is having a follow up fecal this week as well as another blood draw. Because I have a doe due to deliver July 10th I want to be able to sell babies in good conscience that all my goats are CAE, CL, and Johne's negative. I pray she is good to go because I would like to start her integration with my 2. She still cries from being alone. I feel nervous about the safeguard working on the lungworms because she still does the hacking cough but only every once in a while. ( once or twice a week) Not daily like before. Per this thread, I may give her a dose of Ivermectin just to be super safe. I'll see what the fecal says next week.

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## Bertnut2

If it's nice today (been rainy lately) I'll get some current pictures and post them. We can see a difference even in her shaved state that she's bigger. I wish it would go faster, but slow and steady is probably best. All of your advice, thoughts and prayers has been invaluable and a true help to keep me encouraged. It's amazing how much better it makes me feel. 


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## ptgoats45

That's great that she's not pregnant and has gained weight already  She's on the road to recovery, slow as it is I'm sure she will blossom with a little time and a little love


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## christinajh

A little slow is probably good, so she can gain it back a healthy way. I'm glad her testing so far has come back good. I bet she will be stunning by this fall!


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## Trickyroo

I agree , she will be gorgeous  Your doing a wonderful job !
Bless you for going the distance with her


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## happybleats

good news in both not being pregnant and her CAE negative result!! It does take time to get the weight back on...cant wait to see anew pic : )


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## toth boer goats

That is wonderful to hear, thanks for the update. 

Sounds like she is on the road to recovery.

Yes Ivomec is a great product for a lot of worms. 

She may have scaring causing her to continue to cough here and there as well.

Make sure she gets Fortified Vit B complex and probiotics if you haven't given it to her to rebuild her gut after all the treatments given.


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## Bertnut2

Here are some updated pictures from yesterday afternoon. I took them on the same step as before. It may be difficult to see the improvement but I think you can. It






































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## Bertnut2

Here is a pic of her starting interactions with my others. If all tests are good at week end we will start to merge them. 






.








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## StaceyRosado

You most certainly can see a major difference! She is glossy black and her hair looks norm. 

How old is the other goat she is sniffing at the fence?


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## Bertnut2

StaceyRosado said:


> You most certainly can see a major difference! She is glossy black and her hair looks norm.
> 
> How old is the other goat she is sniffing at the fence?


She is younger Than Abby. The goat at the fence is a month younger. If Abby looks bigger it's because she is standing kind of on a higher spot in the incline.

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## Trickyroo

WOW ! She looks awesome ! Look at that shine to her coat ! 
Her weight is getting better , overall she looks fabulous ! 
Her transformation is amazing ! You have taken her from a extremely sad state to a up and coming beauty  She is adorable 
Your awesome Bertnut2 :hugs::hugs::hugs:


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## StaceyRosado

No I was just thinking they look the same size or Abby only a tad bit smaller. So it's hopeful that if she is still under 4 years which I believe I remember that she is, she should grow to being a fairly normal size by 4 years old. When not all hunched up you can see she is bigger. It's amazing how just feeling better will fill them out and make them look bigger in a short time.


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## COgoatLover25

She looks a lot better!


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## Bertnut2

StaceyRosado said:


> No I was just thinking they look the same size or Abby only a tad bit smaller. So it's hopeful that if she is still under 4 years which I believe I remember that she is, she should grow to being a fairly normal size by 4 years old. When not all hunched up you can see she is bigger. It's amazing how just feeling better will fill them out and make them look bigger in a short time.


They definitely look closer in size than before. My goats used to look like Clydesdales compared to her and we were worried about putting them 
together but yesterday we thought she is really starting to look more in line with them and we felt much better about it.

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## Bertnut2

Trickyroo said:


> WOW ! She looks awesome ! Look at that shine to her coat !
> 
> Her weight is getting better , overall she looks fabulous !
> 
> Her transformation is amazing ! You have taken her from a extremely sad state to a up and coming beauty  She is adorable
> 
> Your awesome Bertnut2 :hugs::hugs::hugs:


Thank you Tricky! And we know she will just keep improving. It's encouraging for me to be able to see the difference. I was hoping the pics would show what we see.

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## CritterCarnival

She is looking much better, she is getting a shine to her coat and just looks much healthier already!! Job well done!


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## Bertnut2

CritterCarnival said:


> She is looking much better, she is getting a shine to her coat and just looks much healthier already!! Job well done!


Thank you! It was the support on here that helped me when I was discouraged.

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## Bertnut2

COgoatLover25 said:


> She looks a lot better!


:0)

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## happybleats

wow..you have done a wonderful job on her...she looks soooo much better!!! cant wait to see her playing with the others...looks like she can hold her own now!!!


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## nchen7

Wow! Look at the difference! She looks amazing! *fingers crossed* her tests come back negative.


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## christinajh

She looks very good! I'm glad you stuck it out. She looks like a very nice doe.


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## Rhandi74

Wow!!! I can't even tell she is the same goat. That is amazing and inspirational to me. You are an amazing person to be doing so much for her. It will be so rewarding when she gets to be with the other goats and you get to see her personality blossom. I will be praying for all her tests to come back negative.


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## Jessica84

I love before and after  you did a good job. You should be a proud mama. I think even if she was behind she will be just fine in the end. She's beautiful so I think well worth the extra wait if you even have to wait to breed her......I'm guessing your gonna breed her and get more purdy babies from her 


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## janeen128

Yep, you can definitely tell the difference... GOOD JOB!!!


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## ndwarf

Wow she looks so much better!!


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## Bertnut2

Tomorrow morning last blood test for CL and Johne's and fecal on all 3 to make sure everyone is ready for the merge. Fingers crossed!! 


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## Bertnut2

Rhandi74 said:


> Wow!!! I can't even tell she is the same goat. That is amazing and inspirational to me. You are an amazing person to be doing so much for her. It will be so rewarding when she gets to be with the other goats and you get to see her personality blossom. I will be praying for all her tests to come back negative.


Thank you Rhandi. My bf and I both have said the same thing. We can't wait to let them be together. I think that will help her even more to have herd mates and not be alone anymore.

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## Bertnut2

ndwarf said:


> Wow she looks so much better!!


Thank you ndwarf. I'm glad people can tell.

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## MsScamp

Awesome job, Bertnut! :hi5: I am so happy for both Abby, and you!


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## Bertnut2

MsScamp said:


> Awesome job, Bertnut! :hi5: I am so happy for both Abby, and you!


Thank you MsScamp.

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## Trickyroo

Cant wait to see her playing with her buddies  This is so exciting


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## NyGoatMom

:thumb:


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## JAR702

Wow!! Abby looks great, you are doing so good. I hope she will be able to be bred in the future so you can recoup some of all that money you have spent on her. She is really a nice looking goat now that she is on the mend. I will pray that the last of her tests are all good. Please continue to keep us updated on Abby's progress. :applaud:


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## toth boer goats

I agree.


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## chapinranch

great job bertnut2 she is looking awesome thank you for taking the time with sweet lil abby and getting her back to health and the doe we know she can become :lovey::fireworks:


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## Bertnut2

Funny thing.... I took her to the vet for him to draw blood and he said " Which goat is this? Did you get another one? " I said, no this is Abby the one sent from MO. He said he wouldn't have known she looks so much better. :0) He was very happy with her progress especially her skin and coat. He said she has more to go but she looked good. My only concern is the coughing. When she is jumping around and doing her kicking and trying to do somersaults ( which is so funny) she really gets in a coughing fit. I want to give her some ivermectin. Is there a goat kind? At my Tractor Supply I only see a horse kind. I live in a small town and there's a bigger TSC in York so I can check that one today also when I get chicken feed. She's not been on any meds since the 15th which was her last Safeguard treatment. How many doses should I give her? She is up to 25 LBS now. :0) 


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## ksalvagno

Get Ivomec cattle injectable. It is 1%. Dosed at 1cc per 33 lbs orally or 1cc per 40 lbs injected.


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## ThreeHavens

If you haven't already I'd look into pneumonia and lungworm, but keep in mind that unfortunately if either went untreated for a touch she may just have sensitive lungs now. Should not make for a poor quality of life, she'll just have a cough. I've known goats like this.


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## Bertnut2

ThreeHavens said:


> If you haven't already I'd look into pneumonia and lungworm, but keep in mind that unfortunately if either went untreated for a touch she may just have sensitive lungs now. Should not make for a poor quality of life, she'll just have a cough. I've known goats like this.


Yes she did have lungworms. That was one of the things we treated her for. The vet said there could be scar tissue. :0( but I was wondering if maybe I should dose her with Ivermectin to make sure they are gone. He won't check for that again for another week.

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## ThreeHavens

If she was already treated I'd be tempted to wait that week to make sure she needs it. How long ago did you first treat her?


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## liz

What a beauty! You have done an awesome job with getting her on the road to being a healthy girl :hug:


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## Bertnut2

ThreeHavens said:


> If she was already treated I'd be tempted to wait that week to make sure she needs it. How long ago did you first treat her?


She was treated starting 5/27 for 5 days on Safeguard, then 5 days for cocci, then once he test came back positive for lungworms, he wanted one more dose on 6/15 of Safeguard.

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## chapinranch

here is a link on lungworms 

http://goats.wikifoundry.com/page/Lungworm,+How+to+deal+with+it


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## Bertnut2

Look at this spunky girl. :0) This picture was from yesterday. That's the dog crate she is in ( make shift home while she is separated) She jumps up there and hangs out, takes naps and everything. We haven't heard anything on the blood tests yet but her fecal count was 3?? That's the info from the assistant so I'm not sure what that means. The vet wasn't able to call with details, he was out running emergencies. . We are hoping next week to merge everyone.




















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## ksalvagno

She looks great. Very low egg count.


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## Trickyroo

:hug: She looks great  And for her to be jumping up on that crate she haste be feeling spunky  Yay for Abby :rainbow::rainbow::rainbow:
Yep , 3 is visible egg count on the slide. VERY good news for Abby since I'm sure it was loaded before and beyond counting.


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## canyontrailgoats

She's beautiful, congrats on a goat turned healthy!


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## NewbieNubian

You've done an amazing job getting her turned around! She's beautiful!


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## pdpo222

First thing I would do is get a vet report. Call the Humane Society for a report and get lots of pictures. I'd ask the vet for a "detailed" report. And I would take my camera and get lots of pics. Then I would call the previous owner and tell him what you did and you want your money back. If he wants the goat back, tell him you will have to talk to the Humane Society about that. Tell the previous owner what the vet bill was, what the tests said, and tell him you want to be reimbursed immediately. I would be his worst nightmare. There is no reason for it. And if he didn't answer, I would call the Humane Agent in HIS area and report him. I probably would do it anyway, why should his animals suffer? I'm sure you can find the Humane Society in his area on line. Good luck and don't just let him get away with this, his animals deserve to be taken away from him if they look like this.


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## Bertnut2

YAY!!!! I got the last test results. Negative for CL and Johnne's. My little Abby is ready to mix with the big girls. I'm very glad to hear this. We have already been letting her meet them at the fence so tomorrow we will let them browse in the yard together under very close supervision and see how things go. 


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## happybleats

Thats awesome bertnut2...wonderful news indeed!!..if you want to check for lung worm..gather some of her fresh berries and wrap in a square of gauze...twise tight and float in water over night...if she still has lung worm you wil see worms or larve in the water....as your vet said..she may have scar tissue and may need a bit of extra care with URI....

best wishes


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## janeen128

Yay!! Great news;-) She'll be a happy camper... Good job with her;-)


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## navababy

*I bought an abused goat...*



Bertnut2 said:


> I spent $300 for a Nigerian doe and $200 to transport and I got a bag of bones. In all the goats I've seen I have never seen anything like this. I just can't believe what was just delivered to me. This poor Nigerian is the size of a baby ND and she is older than the two I already have. I'm so sad and I feel so stupid for being fooled.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


Greetings-We raise Nubian and Alpines here on our farm. About three years ago, my farmhand came to us and said that he knew of a man who had his goat tied to a tree and beating it with a stick. I told him to ask the man to give me the goat. It took almost a year of patience and kindness, but today Chauncey is very loving. He is still terrified of men (other than my husband) and hates raised sticks. It takes a long time to gain the trust of someone once that trust has been violated. Thank you for taking this goat in, although it was cheesy that the former owner rooked you out of money the way that he did. Sit with your goat and don't touch it. Have treats in your pocket. Eventually the curiosity about you will overcome her fear and she will approach you. Slowly offer her a treat. Gradually begin to reach out to stroke her withers, leading up to her neck and head. If loud noises scare her, try to refrain from yelling. Raised sticks are Chauncey's trigger, so I don't sweep his side of the barn when he is with me. I do other chores until he is grazing in the pasture, and can't see me with the broom. In time, with consistency and patience, your goat will come around. She may never completely trust others and there may always be a trigger that sends her regressing to her former self. Good luck!


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## canyontrailgoats

*pdpo222 :* thankfully this loooong thread had a happy ending!  Bertnut2 and Abby's previous owner worked things out, and resolved the issue. Right now the P. Owner is helping her own goats become healthy, I think part of the problem was an ineffective worming routine and a not so good vet.

Congrats Bertnut2, on a disease free goat!! All your hard work and dedication is paying off


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## Juperlative

***I am addressing the "Seller" here, not the original breeder, who had nothing to do with the condition of this goat*** 

Quote "I take responsibility for her hooves. Her fur was rough but I thought it was just winter shedding as all my goats looked rough for about a month. They are all sleek and shiny now. I just thought her fur was rough. And I am not the only person who thought Abby and her parents were tinier than other Nigerians. I have quite a few witnesses with that. And I did not buy Abby at 2 months old. She was older than that. I have only been raising goats for 3 years. This is my second kidding season. I have a LOT to learn. I know my goats are deficient in copper. I have never bolused but am getting ready to for the first time. So that is more than likely a huge problem with Abby's fur. I have not done fecals on my goats right after worming with Levamisol. My vet told me it worked so I took his word for it. But maybe I should do a fecal now. None of this was intentional. Otherwise I would not be replying to anything. This is weighing heavy on me. I have repeat buyers quite often. Why would people come back to buy from the same herd if that herd sells sickly goats? That doesn't make sense. I have lots of repeat buyers. I always welcome anyone potential buyer to come to my farm and encourage them to look at the other goats and the situation they are in! I always am honest and up front. I have nothing to hide. Anyone is welcome to see the farm. And yes I did get too many animals all at once. I am in the process of cutting back. I LOVE all animals and went too far and was overwhelmed. But I do have help so everyone gets taken care of. I am just trying to get my numbers more manageable. I am trying to get started as a well known breeder. I would not sell a goat that I honestly thought was sick if I was trying to get a good reputation"

Shiny, productive, healthy animals from a clean farm and knowledgeable breeders fetch the premium prices. Now, learning how to get that going on in your herd, will take years. I'm sure we can all say we've had our ups and downs, and the learning curve is a b**ch, thats why we are on here right?  I am sure every one of us has had a goat look like that at some point, near the start of our goaty journey. RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH, and then, educate yourself some more. Find info on here, cross reference it with university studies, check manufacturer research. NEVER just rely on your vet, there are thousands of years of experience on this forum, and it only takes a minute to verify information from your vet thru others experience. I'll take advice from an experienced goat breeder, before I'll take it from a vet....unless that vet is an experience goat farmer 

$300? Sure, as breeders, we all want top dollar for our goats. Thats why we put so much into the condition of our animals, the elbow grease to get it done, and the wisdom to know how to do it. 
The question is, would you, honestly, have purchased that doe yourself in that condition for $300? Can you, honestly, look at the before pictures of that doe and say you dont see anything wrong? How would you have felt being on the other end? 
The truth is, You cant sell patchy, potbellied goats to buyers for $300, and expect to get a good reputation. You get premium prices when you have the experience and knowledge to grow them to their potential, and the genetics to back it up when they are sold to others. All you can do after that, is hope your buyer takes good care of it and makes you look good like you deserve too.

The truth is, a $1200 animal can look like a $100 animal real quick in the wrong hands. And the person who devalued it, has no business asking $1200. For example; Just because you bought a Ferrari for 100k, doesnt mean you can sell it for that after it's wrecked.

If you want a reputation as a good breeder, dont let an animal like that leave your farm. If you do, sell it at a low price, and let them know why. You didnt bolus, you haven't done fecals, you havent trimmed... You *HAVE* to do that stuff, it's *minimal care*. If your not able to give at least minimal care, you shouldn't expect to sell your animals for the same prices breeders that do, ask. Around here $300 will get you a decent quality ND suitable for show. What I see in the before pics is a $75 gamble... at most, and I personally wouldn't have. 
When I see a herd of healthy goats, I know the breeder values them, and I assume they are quality animals...usually correctly, because it takes work, lots of money, and a true compassion and love for goats to have good looking herds.

The facts: The doe was in bad shape. The buyer wasn't expecting her to be. 2 things that can never happen if you want to be a reputable breeder.

Taking "responsibility" for the condition of this goat, would have been selling her at a loss, because her condition did not justify her price. Instead, the buyer took the loss, and you got more than you deserved for what you put into her.

Excuse your lack of experience with your prices, not words after the fact...and nobody will be upset while your learning. We all love a bargain, and a well bred goat in bad condition should be a bargain. I have a few diamonds in the rough I got on the cheap, because I saw the genetic potential and was willing to gamble that I could bring them up to what they should be.

I say these things with a warm heart and understanding. In the hopes you reach your goals, and enjoy goats as much as they should be. They can be profitable, but you have to earn it, work for it, and deliver what you say. Expect to pay it forward for a while. And expect the rare unhappy buyer that is just set on being unhappy... But this buyer is not one "of those", so you should take it to heart, and modify whatever you can to avoid it in the future. You may have repeat buyers, but this one wont be, I can almost guarantee it.

Worm them effectively, and make sure they ALWAYS have access to pricey (yep, needs to be expensive) loose minerals... those are the 2 greatest things you can do to get your herd looking like high dollar babies.... and good luck to you!


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## Bertnut2

happybleats said:


> Thats awesome bertnut2...wonderful news indeed!!..if you want to check for lung worm..gather some of her fresh berries and wrap in a square of gauze...twise tight and float in water over night...if she still has lung worm you wil see worms or larve in the water....as your vet said..she may have scar tissue and may need a bit of extra care with URI....
> 
> best wishes


Because her last treatment with Safeguard wasn't till mid June he said we can't look again for lung worm till next week. He feels with her improving health we won't see any and we are going to start the merge. I am going to try method you shared to see if I see any.

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## nchen7

did you get her test results? hope she's good to go for the merge!


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## Bertnut2

nchen7 said:


> did you get her test results? hope she's good to go for the merge!


Yes and everything has been negative. She is good to start merging. She will be so happy to have friends. She's been lonely up there in the other pen.

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## nchen7

woo hoo!!!!! :stars::clap:


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## KellyM

Sorry, I may have missed it as I am short of time this morning. But did you report the owner to the MO Department of Agriculture or the Humane Society? Giving the goat a better life is admirable and seems like the thing to do. But it is now your responsibility to make sure this does not happen to other animals. Chances are that if you bought one like this there are others animals--- not just goats; that are in need of care. Just a thought from an ex-animal control officer.


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## farm_girl_

I am sorry that this has happened. But fate has bought her to you. Love her and get her healthy again. I would suggest a vet visit, some good feed, and lots and lots of love. 
I wish you the best. and Report them ASSES to the proper authorities!!!!!!


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## AJSIHH

I am very glad to hear she is negative on everything. I usually buy from negative tested farms anyways, but have never tested personally yet. It's always good to hear. And I'm sure she will be very happy to be put in with the other goats. She has always been very social


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## moonspinner

I just read this thread last night and it just proves what good care will do to transform a goat. Wanted to addd that just because one goat is unthrifty does not mean you neccessarily need to treat the entire herd. The adage goes 20% of the herd carries 80% of the parasites and I've found that to be true. One of my goater friends with a herd of 16 just fecaled all his animals. All but one doe came back clean. The one doe was loaded with cocci and stronglyes. Another friend had a similar report on her herd of 12 with just two showing positive. My own experience this year from a herd of ten was one bad fecal. And it's the same doe who I have to treat more than the others every year.
You did a bangup job with this girl and you are now rewarded with a blooming doe who I'm sure is very thankful!


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## Bertnut2

Integrating pics.




















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## Chadwick

She looks great! And I am so happy that you kept her and are showing her the love!


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## hera

i also had purchased an abused goat more than a year ago. underweight, worms, abused, afraid of everyone, etc. Named her Fubar because that's what she was. Didn't cost me and arm & a leg in vet or food but now she looks good, comes when i call her, follows me into pasture when i work outside, even lets other people touch her! I was able to get her a coat to keep her warm this past winter from an online place, the "goatcoat" i think. good price good service. my barn is old an unheated & this winter was especially cold. Give her a better life than she had. one more goat does not cost that much. good luck and thanks for making a difference in the life of a least 1 animal.


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## StaceyRosado

love the pictures of her hanging with theother goats -- seems that they had no issues. Thats great


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## Bertnut2

StaceyRosado said:


> love the pictures of her hanging with theother goats -- seems that they had no issues. Thats great


 Very little head butting or confrontation. It went much smoother than expected. Everyone even ate their lunch and no issues. Abby previously would cry because she is lonely and now she has a herd family.

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## Mcclan3

I'm so glad that Abby is getting such a happy ending and finally gets to meet her new friends!


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## Bertnut2

Mcclan3 said:


> I'm so glad that Abby is getting such a happy ending and finally gets to meet her new friends!


Me too!!! I love a happy ending.

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## nchen7

awwww!!!!! happy happy endings make me smile!!!


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## SunnyD2013

4seasonsfarm said:


> I would message them and let them know and tell them your mind!!! And for lettin a goat be like that!! I would definitely try to get some money back and u would keep her an give her a good home!!]
> 
> I agree with four season farm. I would also add a second step: Call the authorities in whatever town they shipped her from and report them for animal abuse. That will possibly help them loose the rest of their herd so this type of abuse will never happen again! Do not let this slide!


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## StaceyRosado

The situation with the seller of Abby has been taken care of. Please all lets keep this topic about Abby and her health


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## Rhandi74

I am just so happy for Abby and you. You have done an amazing job and what a great pay off to see her with the herd and get to watch her personality blossom. Congrats on her results!!!


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## liz

StaceyRosado said:


> The situation with the seller of Abby has been taken care of. Please all lets keep this topic about Abby and her health


I second Stacey's reply... Abby has made a great turnaround in her new home, her seller and her new owner are on THE SAME PAGE, this thread is actually a very good "story" on how anger can start, then resolve as understandings are made. Please, read the whole thread before placing any more judgement on the seller, your heart may even win over any ill feelings once you finish. :hug:


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## Barnes19

Ok only just joined this thread. Wonderful improvement she looks amazing!

To the seller ... and any others who are perhaps struggling ... Good on you AJSIHH for coming on here. That took guts and I support you for it. Don't worry ... we don't bite!

Copper deficiency is probably a big part of your problem ... that will indeed cause rough coat, and in fact it can stop a young goat growing almost completely as long as the deficiency persists. It also causes a predisposition to worms. The combination can be nasty.

19# is very small indeed ... but never mind, to be honest the thing that matters is helping you out.

I understand your situation. I had some young very undergrown goats of my own once and had no idea. They weren't that small ... but one was pretty bad, and I still kick myself for not seeing it.
I had had goats for 10 years, but always nz feral crosses, which are small, like a nigerian, but also naturally very slow growing. I changed my herd to dairy goats a couple of years ago, by buying in young stock. I bought a 5 month old doe, a 3 month old buck, and a year old doe. I thought they were huge for their age! The girl was bigger than my feral kid who was a year old, and normal for her breed.

No problems with the yearling, she was already well grown, but the other two ran into copper deficiency, and I never knew, I'd never had that problem before. Ferals are hardy and adapted to the climate!

I never suspected they weren't growing well, because they were bigger than the goats I was used to. I only knew there was a problem when someone saw them and said that they were tiny. At that time, the doeling, nubian/saanenX, was a year old, and she was 88#, not so bad, but not ideal. The buckling was the bad one, he was 9 months old, and 55#. He was also quite ginger-coloured, and should have been black ... I thought it was just that the winter coat was old and ratty and it was starting to spring moult.

Turns out they were short of copper ... and in fact he'd only grown 10# in the 6 months I'd had him. Now all is corrected, they've caught up, are teh picture of health, and every kid since has had a wonderful growth rate.

My suggestion ... definately copper bolus, if you have a serious copper deficiency your minerals have probably not contained enough copper to combat it.
Keep coming on this site ... people are very helpful and supportive, if you are having trouble, don't be afraid to ask for help, even if you think it looks bad ... I've never seen anyone critisised for it.

Download a good chart on evaluating "Body Condition Scores", they're very helpful I find, and by feeling your goat and comparing to the descriptions on the score chart, you can easily get a good idea of how your goats are doing. They can hide their condition under hair ... its very deceptive.

When you have young growing goats, keep a regular check on their growth rates. I measure my kids both height at withers and heart girth weight estimate every 2 weeks or so, and draw it up on a graph ... that way if one stops growing I know immediately and can correct the problem (usually copper) quickly and restore the growth rate.

I don't know what it is for Nigerians, but the normal growth rate for other goats up to 6 months of age is 10# per month ... even when I think I have no problems I judge my growth rates off that.

Using fecal egg counts to check the effect of your wormer is great. I have my own Mcmaster slide and microscope (just a small basic scope, 100 magnification is all you need), and I do my own, every time I dose almost, before and after. Its easy and it means you can keep a really good regular check without having to pay for every test.


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## janeen128

Cool!! Glad she had some friends now;-) She's looking really nice...


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## pamdharing

I Hope you can keep her and give her a new home. you might be surprised what she will look like with proper vet care and good food and water, and she will love you both for all you do.


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## cteague

Keep her feed her...she may be the best goat u have ever owned once u get her back on her feet. And she may produce awesome offspring. U have her for a reason.


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## Bertnut2

I have seen other comments on Calf Manna. I just wondered if anyone thought it would be a benefit for Abby? She's doing well and adjusting to being with the other girls but sometimes I wonder if she needs more of something to get her healthy. It is very obvious that she is at the bottom of the pecking order and there is more head butting than I would like at times but she keeps right up with them. She has started sharing a food bowl with Bertie. ( at first no one would eat with her) Peanut is my doe that's due to kid anytime so I feed her separately because she eats more and Bertie would keep trying to eat with her rather than Abby but now she and Abby eat together. 


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## StaceyRosado

I've heard good things about calf mana. Just don't feed a lot. It's meant to be used as a supplement so not even a 1/8 cup.


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## Bertnut2

StaceyRosado said:


> I've heard good things about calf mana. Just don't feed a lot. It's meant to be used as a supplement so not even a 1/8 cup.


Stacey, I was thinking of just a sprinkling on her food.

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## StaceyRosado

That would be perfect


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## Trickyroo

I use calf manna in my mix of oats , boss , beet pulp   
It is a great supplement .


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## janeen128

I used Calf Manna for my Bella. She was weaned at 4 weeks from her previous owner, and came to me looking like a twig;-( I got a bag of calf manna for her and she's in excellent condition now....;-) I'd recommend it.


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## Bertnut2

janeen128 said:


> I used Calf Manna for my Bella. She was weaned at 4 weeks from her previous owner, and came to me looking like a twig;-( I got a bag of calf manna for her and she's in excellent condition now....;-) I'd recommend it.


Great. It seems like just the nice booster Abby needs. I'm going to start that tonight.

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## toth boer goats

Yep, it will be good for her.


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## canyontrailgoats

Calf manna is awesome, I bet you'll notice a difference in her condition/coat right away


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## cteague

U may want to keep her separate from the others while she eats until she is back to a healthy weight and can really hold her own.


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## Trickyroo

Hi , just wondering how little Abby is doing lately 
Hope all is well .


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## janeen128

Yes, I'm wondering too...;-)


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## Bertnut2

You will all be shocked. :0) I'll take some pictures today and post them. 


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## janeen128

Cool!! Can't wait;-)


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## Trickyroo

Yay :leap::leap::leap:


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## navababy

*I bought an abused goat...*

Greetings from Louisiana! I would run a fecal on your goat, and worm accordingly. I would also give a copper bolus, free choice minerals, baking soda should always be out where she can get to it. Don't feed too much or too often, but do get her on a regular feeding schedule. Since she is so poor, I would feed her twice daily until she begins to fill out. Hay should always be available to her. Some Magic wouldn't hurt either. Have you trimmed her hooves? What about her vaccinations-have you given her any yet? I would suggest a Cd&T as well as a pneumovax to start. Next up would be her tetanus shot. The biggest part of her regaining her strength (and since she was abused) her will to live is going to be lots of love and attention. Spend as much time with her. If she won't let you touch her yet, I would suggest sitting quietly in her pasture with a little bag of treats. The curiosity will eventually be too much for her to resist, and she will approach you. Good luck! My Chauncey also came to us as an abused goat. To this day (three years later) he is scared of strange men, broom sticks and a hose.


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## StaceyRosado

This goat is fully healed now. We are just waiting on an updated photo. But thank you for being willing to pass on some information


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## Bertnut2

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## christinajh

She looks great! I'm so glad you stuck with her. You have a cute goat on your hands now


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## HerdQueen

Wow that is a totally different girl. She looks great!


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## Rhandi74

Great Job!!! She is gorgeous!!!


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## margaret

Wow! Your girl looks amazing!
Good job!


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## Pygmygoatluver

Wow!! She's so plump and she's cute! Good Job :-D


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## COgoatLover25

Wow, she looks great! Awesome job! :thumbup:


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## Bertnut2

The only thing resulting from her previous health issues is her cough. The vet said she has scar tissue from the lungworms and she will always have a cough. 


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## sweetgoats

Wow beautiful. Congratulations.


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## Trickyroo

Hey she looks fabulous ! You really did a awesome job pulling her through what was a tremendously long road with huge ups and downs !
She has put on weight nicely and has a beautiful sheen to her coat 
now  You've got to be very proud of yourself Bertnut2 :thumb::applaud:
You rock girl :hi5: Thanks for the update , I've been thinking about her lately and now I'm so happy for her and for you ! :clap:

Have you kept in touch with her breeder or person you got her from ?
Hope they are doing well and have learned more about taking care of their herd. From what i remember , you , them and TGS worked together on this journey back to health.


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## janeen128

Wow!! She looks GREAT!!;-) Good job!


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## NyGoatMom

Great Job! :thumb:


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## JAR702

I went back and looked at the pictures from when you got her and the present ones. WOW!!! She looks so good, you have done a phenomenal job with her.:clap::thumbup::balloons::wahoo::cheers::leap::stars::fireworks::dance::applaud:


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## pamdharing

Oh she look so beautiful you have done a wonderful job. I am sooooo proud of all the work you put in her, And boy is it wonderful to see her now.
She needed you.
Way to go.


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## Bertnut2

Thank you all! This forum helped me through that journey. She really is a sweetie pie. 


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## Bertnut2

Trickyroo said:


> Hey she looks fabulous ! You really did a awesome job pulling her through what was a tremendously long road with huge ups and downs !
> She has put on weight nicely and has a beautiful sheen to her coat
> now  You've got to be very proud of yourself Bertnut2 :thumb::applaud:
> You rock girl :hi5: Thanks for the update , I've been thinking about her lately and now I'm so happy for her and for you ! :clap:
> 
> Have you kept in touch with her breeder or person you got her from ?
> Hope they are doing well and have learned more about taking care of their herd. From what i remember , you , them and TGS worked together on this journey back to health.


 Tricky- her original breeder stays in touch with me and inquires about her. I am sure the seller did learn from all the advice. Someone on TGS got her on the forum to join this conversation back when this happen so My hope is she browsed the many topics and is doing better for her heard.

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## groovyoldlady

What an amazing transformation!!!!!!


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## chapinranch

Great to see Abigail looking back to what she should look like Thank you so much for bringing her back to what she deserves to be like THANK YOUUUUUUU arty::stars:


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