# Pain relief



## Stormynights (May 2, 2013)

Hi all,
I am new to this forum and haven't even had a chance for proper introductions. I was hoping to do that later today, but something else has come up.
We recently, about a month or so ago, added two Saanen goats, wethers, to our family. They're a delight to have and we've grown very quickly to love them.
We also show and raise Golden Retrievers. Until today, everyone has lived quite peaceably together and it's quite common to find dogs & goats playing or resting together.
However, about an hour or so ago, one of the dogs (who has not previously been with the goats) was introduced to the paddock and while things started off really well, it quickly turned not so good. It was very uncharacteristic of this particular dog and, as I said, things started swimmingly, but that's not the point.
The smaller of our boys, Zed, has sustained some injuries to his ears, a small scrape above one eye and a tiny nick (not through the skin layer) to his neck. The back and sides of his neck are quite covered with dog saliva. The incident lasted a few minutes and Zed was very stressed. We did a cursory check for wounds but have since left him be (where we can see him, but not disturb him) to recover. He has stayed on his feet, peed and pooped and his breathing is becoming more relaxed. We offered a treat, but he's not interested (uncharacteristic, but not surprising given the cicumstances). 
My first question is about pain relief. There is no doubt he's already painful, but even if he is not, he will be. I would like to give him something for pain and inflammation. I've read Aspirin on this forum, but I also have some liquid (for dogs) Meloxicam (tradename Metacam) which is 1.5mg/ml. Would that be better or is it even appropriate. He's not a particularly big guy; I'd estimate maybe around 60 lbs (???)
Also, can you use Arnica (a homeopathic) for goats? It does use alcohol as a carrier, so I don't know if that's an issue.
My second concern is that I know tetanus is a big concern for these guys. I am their third home and don't know their vaccine status at all. I somehow doubt their previous owners would know either. I am going out shortly to clean the wounds and apply some betadine, but should I be trying to find some tetanus anti-toxin? If I can't find it, what should or can I do?
Any help would be most appreciated.


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

I would highly recommend CDT antitoxin for sure but the pain meds being ok I'm not so sure.....I know Banamine is recommended a lot on here.....hopefully someone with more knowledge about that will chime in.....sorry about your baby


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

Poor guy! 
I read about aspirin to give double the human dose, and arnica montana is safe for goats. I read that in pill form you give around 4-6 twice a day for standard size goats, but I don't know how that would translate to liquid suspended. I would guess a teaspoon = 1 pill? I'm sorry that I don't know more. I would also go ahead and give tetanus antitoxin, it's 1 ml for adult goats. If you have banamine on hand, you give 1 ml per 100 pounds. If you have any herbs on hand, a tablespoon of equal parts chamomile, peppermint, and thyme will help settle his nerves. I hope this helps, it's so scary when they get hurt.

*edit* I looked up Meloxicam and it said it causes liver damage in goats. Also, try putting Neosporin on his wounds. I'm sure you did this but make sure to check for puncture wounds, and if you find any flush them well with Hydrogen Peroxide. You'll have to watch them carefully because puncture wounds from bites can turn into nasty infections. You are doing a good job caring for him, keep up the good work.


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## Stormynights (May 2, 2013)

Thanks, Curious and Still. I am having a bit of a hard time locating the antitoxin, but waiting on a call back from a large animal vet about an hour or so from here. 
If I can't get it right away, do I just give it when I do get it (if I get it) or is there a specific window it needs to be done in?
I have rechecked his wounds and most are relatively superficial. The dog more or less grabbed his ear and had his whole ear in his mouth, so the bulk of the wounds are at the base of Zed's ears from the molars on the dog. There does not seem to be any punctures.
I brought out a cracker (which he's never had before) and he took it willingly. I also brought him a cherry tomato (one of his faves), a small handful of hay & a few dandelion greens which he also took. His neck seems stiff though and that will be problematic for foraging  He does seem calmer, but he's not himself. He doesn't really want to be handled and will move away when I draw near. Poor dude.
I don't have any banamine, but when the vet calls back, I'll ask about it for sure and, in the meantime, I'll hold off on the metacam.
Thanks again.


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

You're very welcome. CD antitoxin is usually administered within a few hours. I think he'll be okay without it for now. You might also want to check his temp to see if he is in shock. Normal temps range from 101.5 to 103.5, if he's in shock his temp will be low, and his eyelids and gums will be very pale. B complex is very good for stressful situations and you can find it at TSC and most feed stores. It is injected SQ 5 ml, it is water soluble so you can't really overdose on it. If he is in shock his rumen will try to shut down and B complex helps jumpstart it. Thiamin (B12) is also something you want to have on hand, as it's necessary for rumen fiunction, especially if he refuses to eat or his rumen is shutting down. He's probably shocky and in pain, but you are doing your best for him.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Sorry this has happened. Keep it clean with weak betadine solution, peroxide is going to dry the skin.
Several yrs ago one of the LGDs took the end of a wether's ear. He was fine. Could have strangled the dog though.


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

nancy d said:


> peroxide is going to dry the skin.


Really? =/ I've used it for years on our animals and never thought there was a problem. :worried:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

One baby aspirin for pain if needed is fine..Banamine if you have it is good too for pain and swelling.
2 cc Tetanus antitoxin is a better choice then CD&T...its fast acting where cd&t is slow and long lasting...you will need to re-booster his CD&T ten days after since each cancel out the other..Make surehe has plenty of hay and fresh water....Im sure he will be fine..also B complex is wonderful for stress..will perk him right up...


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

Happybleats always comes to the rescue!


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## Stormynights (May 2, 2013)

His temperature is 101.7 and he at least feels well enough to try and avoid having his temperature taken! I did see him him lay down for a bit and now he's back up on his feet.
Our TSC doesn't carry Vit B complex (maybe because I'm in Canada???). I'll get some from the vet though. His gums are pale compared to the other guys. I can't really tell if his eye lids are pale; both goats have sort of 'orangey' eyelids. Is this normal?
I was planning on deworming them with ivermectin this coming weekend as they aren't gaining condition very well. They were both very thin when we got them (thin even for dairy type) and now they've had a few weeks of free-choice hay, forage and consistant veggie & fruits I would have expected them to at least condition up a bit. I had post-poned the deworming as I didn't want to add any more stress to their lives after the move. Hopefully Zed will be back to normal enough to proceed with this plan.
Thanks again


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

His temp is good  Glad he feels good enough to resist. A vet office might have some B complex, you could try calling the feed stores and vets in your area. In the U.S. an RX isn't needed for B complex but I don't know what the regulations are in Canada. I would have a fecal done to see what kinds of worms you're dealing with. The way you check eyelids is by pushing the eye in slightly with one thumb and using the other to pull the bottom eyelid down. It should be a deep salmon color, but a salmon color is acceptable. They aren't always cooperative so I usually straddle their necks and cradle their head against my body. You can look up FAMACHA scoring in google images for a reference color to go back to.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im sure he will perk up in a day or two..he was quite stressed and bruised up. If yu can get the b complex..awesome..if not, Human vitamins are the same thing just crush one , add a bit of water and drench : ) 
I personally would use valbazen oral wormer for kids under 6 months of age...there has been discussion whether using ivomec product on younger then 6 month passing the brain barrier and causing brain damage..Now I should add many use it with no issues but I just rather not take the chance...Valbazen is 1 cc per 10# and also kills tape worms many kids have...I would go a head and do the worming...stress offers a foot hold for worm load to grow...


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## Stormynights (May 2, 2013)

Thanks Happybleats!!! I can't get to the vet for the vitamin B until tomorrow, but I do have some human vitamin tablets here. I'm going to crush one up and give it to him right away. 
I was told Zed & Zee were around year old, so using ivermectin should be okay. I will, though, try to find the other product you mentioned. There are a lot of discrepencies in product availability in Canada versus the US for sure.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok...Ivomec should be just fine then : ) I assumed they were kids ..


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## still (Mar 16, 2013)

Curious said:


> Happybleats always comes to the rescue!


Yes she does! I was hoping she would see this lol! I had the right idea but off just a little....ooppppsssss sorry bout that


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Tetanus Anti-toxin can be given up until the puctures close. Even though the germ gets in the wound at the time of the puncture, tetanus will not grow if air can get to it. I don't recomend Neosporin for punctures or dog bites. You want them to heal from the inside.


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## Stormynights (May 2, 2013)

Thanks Goathiker. I understand the antitoxin can also be used as a treatment should symptoms develop, is this right? 
There do not appear to be any punctures that I can discern. Mostly skin layer, maybe one a bit deeper on the back of one ear. There is a massive amount of swelling on one side of his neck that I just discovered (presumably it's inflammation that's been accumulating over the course of the day). I picked through the area and found a couple of nicks that I'd previously missed. I know the dog made a grab for that side of the neck and caught Zed's collar, so I'm guessing that's where those wounds are from. The collar has been removed and I'm going to take Zee's off too. There doesn't really seem to be a need for them to be collared; we just didn't take them off when they got here. I have rope slip-leads that I've used to lead them (but mostly they just follow).
I'm feeling awful for poor Zed and still in shock that this even happened. I just didn't predict it, especially after initial introductions went well. Hopefully Zed won't be stressed around the other dogs that he knows well. For now, I'm going to just leave the paddock completely dog free for the next bit, at least until Zed feels better. 
I want to sincerely thank everyone for being so supportive and helpful. You've made this newbie feel very welcome. I especially appreciate that, while some may be thinking it, nobody has come to flame me on even having the goats and dogs together in the first place. I am very sorry this happened and just want to get my little lad feeling back up to snuff asap.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yes it can but, it is a fight for their life at that point. A single dose vial of anti-toxin costs $3.00, very cheap insurance. The swelling shows that the dog did break his skin and the goats body is reacting. Dogs have very dirty mouths.


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## Stormynights (May 2, 2013)

goathiker said:


> Yes it can but, it is a fight for their life at that point. A single dose vial of anti-toxin costs $3.00, very cheap insurance. The swelling shows that the dog did break his skin and the goats body is reacting. Dogs have very dirty mouths.


It's not a question of the money, more about sourcing it. I just got off the phone with a large animal vet. She is saying that we can use the vaccine and it should also be protective even post-exposure, BUT is going to do a bit of refresher research before she decides which route to go. She inferred she had the antitoxin on hand. Either way, we'll have something for him on-board by tomorrow. Which is a relief.
He's up and moving a bit more and just had another bit pee & poop. I'll feel a lot better to see him eating...may go to the store tonight or tomorrow afternoon and pick up some fresh veggies. Are they okay with swiss chard/kale? Otherwise I'll just grab some carrots with their foliage still attached. I don't want to over-do it on 'new' stuff, but if I can at least get him started...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

fresh veggies are a nice treat.. hay is also needed to sustain his rumen...


CD&T is slow to work but long acting...Tetanus antitoxin acts quickly but doesn't stay too long...works for about 2 weeks...For injury its recommended the Tetanus antitoxin...


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## Stormynights (May 2, 2013)

happybleats said:


> fresh veggies are a nice treat.. hay is also needed to sustain his rumen...
> 
> CD&T is slow to work but long acting...Tetanus antitoxin acts quickly but doesn't stay too long...works for about 2 weeks...For injury its recommended the Tetanus antitoxin...


Sorry, I'm not sure I'm following...is CD & T the vaccine or a different type of anti-toxin?


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

The CD&T toxoid is a vaccine. There is a Tetanus toxoid and antitoxin, you want the antitoxin. It'll have it on the label, if ordering make triple sure they're giving you the right thing as we have had mix-ups over it more than once.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

CD&T is different then Tetanus antitoxin..This link explains it better than I can 

.http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/toxoidAntitoxin.html


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## Stormynights (May 2, 2013)

Just wanted to post a quick update. Zed seems to be doing okay after his ordeal. With one exception, the wounds look good and, for the most part, already healed over. The vet gave me both the anti-toxin and a vaccine and told me to give both, just in different areas. I put one injection in each armpit. It seem totally illogical to do them both at the same time, but I read a few articles that indicated this was sort of the 'norm.' I will inquire about giving Zed a booster in a few weeks to insure continued immunity. I'm going to keep him on the vitamin B (I'm using human tablets) for a few more days, for good measure. He started back on his hay last night and I saw him grazing today. Last night he was also waiting expectantly for his daily 'treats' which I thought was a good sign (one of the last things I do in the evening is give the goats whatever fruit/veggie scraps (peels, strawberry tops, bruised apples, uneaten veggies from kids lunches etc), the second I opened the door he came right over. His all-time favourite is oranges, so he & his brother shared one as I did the injections 
I do have some (_lots_) of questions about optimizing health and wellness for these two, but I'll start a new thread for that!
Thank you again to all who took the time to respond.


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## Curious (Feb 6, 2013)

Yay!!! I'm so glad that he's feeling better, I was rooting for the little guy. He has a good goat parent!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

good to hear he is better....Im puzzled over the vet saying to give both..if I understand correct its the cd antitoxin and cd&T? everything I ever read they cancel each other out??? Ill do some reading on that for piece of mind lol...I do know tetanus antitoxin does cancel CD&T out...any way..I am very happy he is on the mend : ) Hes lucky to have you


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## Stormynights (May 2, 2013)

happybleats said:


> good to hear he is better....Im puzzled over the vet saying to give both..if I understand correct its the cd antitoxin and cd&T? everything I ever read they cancel each other out??? Ill do some reading on that for piece of mind lol...I do know tetanus antitoxin does cancel CD&T out...any way..I am very happy he is on the mend : ) Hes lucky to have you


It was a tetanus anti-toxin and a straight tetanus toxoid. A couple of articles I read indicated that when the bucklings are wethered it is routine to give both the vaccine and the anti-toxin. I'm going to totally go out on a limb here, but could it possibly be because the anti-toxin is fast and short acting while the toxoid is slower and longer acting? Perhaps by the time the body 'reacts' to the toxoid, the anti-toxin is gone???
In any case, I'll be watching him like a hawk over the next few weeks; should anything run amiss, I'll be all over it.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

sounds reasonable to me lol...maybe it being straight tetanus toxoid is the difference...at any rate...Im glad he is improving..


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok..I have searched and searched but cannot find any supporting information to use both..not that its not there..I just cant find anything..could you point me to the articles you read? So far everything I have found says Toxoid and antitoxins cancel eachother out....thanks..I like to settle things in my mind lol it will drive me nuts other wise


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## mooie33 (Jul 10, 2014)

Gabapentin is a pain relief medicine. I think it can be also an alternative to tramadol.


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