# CL positive - hard decisions to make - need advice



## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Hey ya'll... some may remember a few months ago we were trying to figure out just what was going on with Anna, a 3 year old Nubian with swollen glands under her forward jaw. Amazingly every one of us (self included) dismissed CL as the lumps were so far forward. Well...every one of us (self included) was wrong. Sigh. Now I have some really, really tough decisions to make. Help...anyone? 

I only keep 4-5 milking does (currently have 4), a buck and a half, and I have 10 kids on the ground. Don't show -- these are just my babies and the milk is for family consumption. Two of the remaining does are suspect and are going to be biopsied tomorrow. The last one (dear senior Totsie) seems asymptomatic, but I'm going to submit blood on her as well. I have the land to run 2 "herds", but I don't have the fencing. And I'm not sure I have the energy (I'm a senior myself). I can justify culling does 2 & 3 (though #2 is my best producer!) It's Anna. She is just so special at so many levels! Even Totsie...as much as I love her and had always planned to be her forever home, because I had planned to retire her after this season, I could envision reluctantly culling Totsie if she tests positive. But Anna...

Am I being crazy? Emotions do that to you. I mean, I'm literally looking at my little herd that I've been breeding for and building for 5 years being wiped out and having to start over. Then there are the kids...I have 6 doelings this year to rebuild from...but they've all been dam raised...so what are the chances they are already infected but not yet symptomatic? I've ordered the Texas Vet Labs vaccine and plan to vaccinate my bucks immediately and then also vaccinate any retained individuals as soon as possible. But how do I make the decision regarding culling or keeping Anna? All the research I've done is (1) mostly targeted to meat goats or sheep or (2) all over the charts with little concensus beyond "highly contagious and incurable". 

I need help. Thanks, ya'll.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Sorry it showed up.

Contrary to the current trend of CL being the end of the world, it is indeed not. I think its really sad that people immediately make anyone who has/had CL think it's all over now and that they have to destroy their goats/pets. I know what I'm mentioning is not something many people here agree with, so keep that in mind.

But CL can be managed.

Give these a read and see if that helps a little on what to do.



> *CASEOUS LYMPHADENITIS
> Misconceptions About the Disease and the CL Vaccine*
> 
> In May 2012, Texas Vet Lab, Inc. of San Angelo, Texas announced the US government approval of its new vaccine to control Caseous Lymphadenitis in goats. Since that announcement, questions have arisen that I will address in this article.
> ...


I would say vaccinate everyone (if it's available in your state), which is also kind of controversial. Here's an older thread where we had a great discussion and peoples thoughts on it, if it interests you. Some of what I've quoted is there already.

Keep a very close eye on any sign of abscesses and separate that one from the herd, in a quarantine pen until it gets cleaned etc.

Just my :2c:. Get as many opinions as possible and decide from there. 

Edit: couldn't fit everything I wanted to and fixed some auto correct words.


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## Lstein (Oct 2, 2014)

Sorry, read what you wrote more thoroughly (tried getting that out before lunch) and see you already ordered the vaccine and have done your research there. I think the steps your taking are in the right direction.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

There really are plenty of farms who manage it. Research and decide for yourself.


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I know an awful lot of meat goat people have CL positive goats and manage them. I don't know what I would personally do if one of mine popped a CL abscess, as I am so not great about culling my girls.

CAE, yup, that I can handle. I have been doing that since my barn fire and I had to start over again. My previous herd was CAE-, my "new" herd is not 100% -, there are a couple who are +. All doe kids and buck prospect bucklings are pulled and raised heat treated/pasteurized. I have been told, like you were, that I am now a person in the shadows. I would be ignored at shows, no one would pen their goats next to mine (fine with me anyway! lol), no one would help me show if I had several goats in one class. Mass hysteria with no solid basis, just like it was when AIDS/HIV was first discovered. I don't show adult milkers, so any of the 4 that are CAE + wouldn't be at the show. If I showed at all, it's kids, dry yearlings and bucks. I haven't shown in years because of the disease that herds come home with, and people feeding my goats odd things because for some reason, parents are great about letting their kids just randomly feed livestock whatever they have in their hands or find on the ground. So, eventually, my herd will be CAE free again. You could do that with your herd if you had the time, land and ambition. Separate the positives and negatives. Practice strict biosecurity. Pull the kids and feed heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk. Treat any abscesses. Vaccinate if you can or want.

Just like with CAE, CL has not been studied enough to really have a clear answer about how bad it may or may not be.

Follow your heart. Do what you feel you need to do for your herd. Read, research valid sites from Ag colleges/Universities or solid goat health sites from the US, Australia, New Zealand, Australia etc. Good luck, I wish you well.


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## capracreek (Apr 5, 2016)

Sorry - sounds like it is all very confusing. We go through the same thing in dogs - every disease is fatal and we have culled til our gene pool is dismal.


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## minibarn (Jul 20, 2010)

The disease spreads through pus that's comes out of burst abscesses. If you can quarantine an animal with an abscess until it is all healed again, chances are that animal will never have another abscess. If your doe is so special to you I would say keep her. And any other kids etc that haven't been exposed to the pus should be okay especially if they get vaccinated. I speak from experience. Sorry you're having to make these decisions.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Lstein said:


> Sorry it showed up.
> 
> Contrary to the current trend of CL being the end of the world, it is indeed not. I think its really sad that people immediately make anyone who has/had CL think it's all over now and that they have to destroy their goats/pets. I know what I'm mentioning is not something many people here agree with, so keep that in mind.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry I don't know how to just quote one section but the section before the quote you did, I could NOT have said it better myself! And I do have to say everyone who has posted is wonderful. I get so very upset when I see basically "burn them alive" replies.
No one knows what is the right answer. These are YOUR goats. I get asked a lot on my stand on cl and I say no, you look into it and you decide. What would be ok with one breeder won't be ok with another. So before I give you my actual 2 cents I'm telling you that. Think of pros and cons on both sides of it.
Now my 2 cents. I honest to gosh don't see what the big deal is! No there is not a cure for it and yes it can spread if you let It. But most of the time the animal lives for a long, also healthy life. The meat of a CL infected goat is still good and everyone says it's pretty obvious if they have a abscess in the udder because chunks of pus come out when you milk. So probably 99% of the time the milk is still good. 
Now your lover girl. You need to ask yourself will you be ok if you culled her? Are you going to end up filling her and loose all love of even wanting Goats? (I went threw that and almost sold all my Goats when I lost my favorite) is it still going to be enjoyable for you? I fully believe Goats is something that needs to be enjoyed because they test us so dang much it would be way to easy to throw the towel in.
There are some very good discussions on here about cL, most people are on the anti CL side but there are some on the pro cL side so look at those. I think cL is very easy to manage if you don't want it to go on and on in your herd. As mentioned it's only spread threw pus. One can make a CL pen and pen abscessed Goats away from the rest till the abscess is drained and healed. Yes it can go internally which is rare but does happen is yes it can get into the lungs and spread that way but once it goes internally you usually have a very sick looking and acting animal on your hands. Same as when someone gets cancer of organs they are just sickly and loosing weight because they need all the organs to be working right and keep them healthy. The pus does not live in the ground for years and years. Goats and sheep are no longer $50 animals so they are actually getting correct info on things related to Goats and sheep. The pus thrives in cold and wet environment. Not so much on hot and dry. It can survive up to 6 months. So no you don't have to burn your whole place down and start over lol 
Really though you need to look into all of this and decide if it's something you can and are willing to deal with. Just know there are MANY people who have cL positive animals and some just ignore It and some manage it. I don't think any way you decide to go will be the wrong way as long as you make sure it fits for you


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## ETgoatygirl (Mar 23, 2012)

If it were my herd, I would personally cull, hard as that would be! But that’s just my opinion, and I would by no means condem anyone for doing what’s best for them. Everyone has made amazing replies on this thread, and it’s been so helpful for me to read them all. Best wishes to you and your herd, top_goat! I feel for you.


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## yankeedoodle (Apr 13, 2018)

I manage a cl positive herd. I took over a herd from someone who had no idea what they were doing and they were all sick and having lots of problems. This person had not cleaned the barn in 4 years, trimmed hooves in 8 months, fed hay straight off the ground, I mean, it was a NIGHTMERE !!! But, through a lot of TLC, (and a little culling) I managed to bring them back to normal and now I don't see the effects of cl at all. I live in a wet, temperate area so CL just thrives. It usually comes out in the spring when things first start to defrost and the air is warming up. So, I clean out the barn and lime it like crazy and boost my girls immune systems by putting Apple cider vinegar in there water. I almost can't stress enough how much having a clean barn helps with all problems, but especially CL and Coccidi. Managing a positive flock is not that hard.

Now, you may think that I'm crazy for even trying to help these goats and your probably right. But, one of the main reasons was for experience.I currently live on just a small farm with a few animals. but in the future will have a large amount of goats and the like. I wanted to have practical experience with every goaty illness you could think of. So, I learn on this small herd and then when I go big, I can have confidence that I all my gals won't keel over and die on me.
Thanks for bearing with my antics:crazy:


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## Lisa Goddard (Feb 5, 2019)

yankeedoodle said:


> I manage a cl positive herd. I took over a herd from someone who had no idea what they were doing and they were all sick and having lots of problems. This person had not cleaned the barn in 4 years, trimmed hooves in 8 months, fed hay straight off the ground, I mean, it was a NIGHTMERE !!! But, through a lot of TLC, (and a little culling) I managed to bring them back to normal and now I don't see the effects of cl at all. I live in a wet, temperate area so CL just thrives. It usually comes out in the spring when things first start to defrost and the air is warming up. So, I clean out the barn and lime it like crazy and boost my girls immune systems by putting Apple cider vinegar in there water. I almost can't stress enough how much having a clean barn helps with all problems, but especially CL and Coccidi. Managing a positive flock is not that hard.
> 
> Now, you may think that I'm crazy for even trying to help these goats and your probably right. But, one of the main reasons was for experience.I currently live on just a small farm with a few animals. but in the future will have a large amount of goats and the like. I wanted to have practical experience with every goaty illness you could think of. So, I learn on this small herd and then when I go big, I can have confidence that I all my gals won't keel over and die on me.
> Thanks for bearing with my antics:crazy:


Great to hear. I was just wondering how much apple cedar vinegar to water ratio you use. Kind regards Lisa


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## Einhorn (Jan 2, 2014)

I had a CL positive goat I rescued.
I treated her with Draxxin, cleaned the abscesses, and she is ok now. I did manage to quarantine her. I live in an arid climate, so i left that pen alone for a few months and since then i haven't had another outbreak. No other goats ever showed positive who have been in that pen.


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