# Overweight pregnant doe?



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'd love some opinions on my son's FB doe. She's 1 1/2 years old, and we just confirmed via blood test that she is pregnant. She is due Feb or Mar depending on which heat she got pregnant on <2nd might have been false as she only flirted/never saw her allow the buck to mount>.

She put on a lot of weight this summer. After my son was done showing her in 4-H, we slacked on grain, but she's still carrying a lot of weight on her front end IMO. Rear end is fine, but she has a massive neck <makes her neck look REALLY short!> and huge chest. She has a lot of cover over her shoulders and ribs as well.

I am worried because I hear and read horror stories of pregnancy toxemia from does who tend to carry more weight/obese. 
Should I be worried? Or could genetics just be a big part of this?

She is active, goes out and browses/grazes with the others, we don't have enough land to support the goats, just a couple of acres, so we supplement with grain & have a roll of grass hay available 24/7. 
She gets about/almost 2 lbs. of grain a day divided into 2 feedings, and she is fed separately so we know how much she is getting. I also had been adding in some cracked corn now and then, especially with the crazy cold temps this past week, but after tomorrow I plan on stopping that for her, but want to get past the brutal cold that is forecasted.

Thanks for any advice, I do appreciate it. Maybe I worry too much, but she is our baby, the only bottle baby we've ever had, she's spoiled rotten, and is completely bonded with my son ♥

Photos were taken a week ago



























Taken a couple of weeks ago


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok I've been waiting for someone to reply lol so I'll go for it. I personally don't think she's that big......she's far from skinny that's for sure but just looking at her pics I say she's got a few extra pounds but IMO a FEW isn't bad especially with winter here. Now she might be totally different in person then she looks in her pics so the only thing I can really suggest is finding one of those how to on body scores and see where she's at on that.
I get the feeling your a bit stressed about PT (totally don't blame you!!!) so this is my suggestion from what all I have really read the last year on PT. Corn is high in energy and energy is what you want to keep PT away so I don't know if I would cut out the cracked corn. It's low in protein so you won't have massive kids I was told. I tried adding corn Into my pregos diet their last 45 days bred on this last batch (corn is not cheap here so I don't feed it) I was pleased with it. The kids were healthy but not huge and one doe I was worried about had trips with no issues. 
So basically out of all that lol I say she's good on weight and if anything I would add the corn back In later on  I could be totally wrong but that's what I would do


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Tough to say without actually putting hands on her! I'm struggling with a similar doe who is 3 years old but a first freshener due in January and I have had her on a no grain diet on rough pastures and first cut hay and just can't move her weight! So paranoid about toxemia! This is the laziest doe I've ever met - ALWAYS laying under the hay rack to eat. (Which then causes me to check her feet a million times a month!)

Anyhow! The only comment I have is that 2 lbs of concentrates is quite a bit for an animal is only eating 4-6 lbs a day. If she were mine personally then I would be cutting her down to 1 lb a day until she kids. But I run a more pasture meat production type of doe so hopefully some of the show boer breeders will chime in!

Jessica - how much corn were you feeding when you tried that out?


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## burtfarms (Apr 4, 2013)

she looks alot like our Ginger. If she is over weight, I should be worried about Ginger. She is a nice Doe. I agree with whats been said I would cut her back to a lb a day and see how that goes.:cowboy:


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Candace, you have successfully kidded out quite a few does over several years, so you got this.  Your doe looks like she is packing some extra flab in her brisket area, but she doesn't look much heavier than her herd mates. The winter time hair makes them look plumper of course. 

For me, I no longer feed any grain/feed/concentrate to my pregnant does until very late (last 7-14 days) of their pregnancy, if any at all. I do feed decent hay which usually consists of grass/alfalfa mix for most of the gestation and then straight alfalfa late in the gestation. I had good luck doing this last year, save for one doe that I lost who was still too fat, even without grain. Long story short, I couldn't get the kids out and I put her down myself. I autopsied her and she had two fat pockets *inside* of her that likely weighed, at least, 15 pounds each. I suspect that the worst enemy to pregnant does is internal fat. 

The other does I kidded last year, that either got no grain, or very late term grain, all kidded normal size babies that did well and the mothers had few complications and milked fine. I feed the heck out of does *after* they kid.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

SalteyLove said:


> Tough to say without actually putting hands on her! I'm struggling with a similar doe who is 3 years old but a first freshener due in January and I have had her on a no grain diet on rough pastures and first cut hay and just can't move her weight! So paranoid about toxemia! This is the laziest doe I've ever met - ALWAYS laying under the hay rack to eat. (Which then causes me to check her feet a million times a month!)
> 
> Anyhow! The only comment I have is that 2 lbs of concentrates is quite a bit for an animal is only eating 4-6 lbs a day. If she were mine personally then I would be cutting her down to 1 lb a day until she kids. But I run a more pasture meat production type of doe so hopefully some of the show boer breeders will chime in!
> 
> Jessica - how much corn were you feeding when you tried that out?


I agree


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks so much everyone, you all are great 

Ok, so I'll cut her back to 1/2lb, 2x a day, and keep a little cracked corn in the mix  if she doesn't get something for breakfast and dinner she will probably die of neglect lol Seriously, she's a spoiled, chunky monkey, just as much a pet/member of the family as she is anything else 

I wish our hay had just a little more to it, otherwise I wouldn't feel the need to supplement so much. But the relationship we have with the farmer we get the hay from is great, and we can square bales as we need them/roll bales delivered as we need those. It's hard to find anyone else like that in our immediate area.

This doe, Peanut, was an itty bitty triplet runt <about 3lbs. at birth>, she's just been a blessing in our lives ♥ I'm going to guess she is 150lbs+ Her dam is a slow grower, and not real tall, otherwise Peanut is the total opposite! Her mom is our hard keeper, go figure! 
I do hold in the back of my mind the potential for having triplets is there. 
But praying for twins.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

SalteyLove said:


> Jessica - how much corn were you feeding when you tried that out?


Oh no!! Everyone is just gonna shake their head at me when I answer this lol I can't feed every goat X amount of feed. I have to many and can't pour it fast enough for everyone to get, plus a few years back I ended up having a std go threw my herd and was having a abortion storm so I add ctc in their grain and everyone needs to get it. Soooo this is what I did, I got some stocker grower grain (which I'm sure has a good amount of corn in it) and it was 2 scoops of that to one whole corn. Then I ground it up and added the ctc and loose salt to keep them from eating to much and put it out for them. So to answer your question I have no idea!!! It worked well and I'm gonna keep going with it lol

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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I think a bag of cracked corn has gone down to $8.50 a bag, it was $13! I had no idea we were paying that much for cracked corn! The other feed store in town is the cheapest I believe. 

I am never sure what is too much or too little cracked corn to feed? I use a large plastic cup - like those big coca cola cups if anyone knows what I am talking about. Typically 1 of those is just under or right at 1lb. of grain. Usually I give 1/2 of the cup of cracked corn. I've not seen any signs of problems, so I am assuming they are doing fine on it. I knew corn was a good source of energy, which is one reason we added it, plus to help a few put on some weight. With this bitterly cold weather hitting the past week and at least for the next few days, I feel the corn must be a good benefit for them.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

Oh I love it!!! You measure like I do  right now I'm measuring with a whipped cream bowl and one of those kids Denny's cups lol
But I know what you mean on the corn. I was nervous trying it and had no clue how much to feed but knock on wood nothing bad went on. Whole corn is $13 and cracked corn is $15 here  nothing ever goes down in price here lol


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Tenacross said:


> ...she had two fat pockets *inside* of her that likely weighed, at least, 15 pounds each. I suspect that the worst enemy to pregnant does is internal fat.


 Everything I've read says goats get fat inside before you can feel anything outside. When the babies really start growing, they don't leave much space for the rumen, and the abdominal fat takes even more space, so the obese doe has little room to process nutrients and has to use up fat reserves. (I wonder if chaffhaye might be a good option for overweight preggos? It's supposedly more easily digestible).

I have a girl who is prone to going fat. I won't grain her until she's well into pregnancy. The fetuses aren't doing much early on. You're really just feeding the doe in the first 60 days. There was a study on feeding extra; they concluded that feeding extra 90 days after breeding and holding steady was good (and cutting back at 90 days was bad):
http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd18/11/rast18159.htm

I don't know boers, and maybe your girl is a good weight. Can you do a body condition score on her? I find this page a good explanation: http://kinne.net/bcs.htm No sense cutting feed on a girl who's a month or two along if she isn't fat. If she's obese, you might have a month to get her in a little better shape while the fetuses aren't doing much.

If that's not a good scoring system for boers, hopefully someone will correct me.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

Well said Harleybarley. I definitely agree. 

The BCS page looks helpful. I don't understand why it says "Padding over the ribs is never used to accurately judge body condition." though? Anybody have thoughts on why that would be? That's how I keep tabs on my goats' weight. All of my goats are different with how much padding is on their ribs vs their spine. I always judge by the ribs rather than the spine though. One of my does has never had much of any padding down her spine, but she has big fat pockets over her ribs. The others all vary too. 

Peanut does look a little bit on the heavy side, and I probably would cut back on the grain. 5 of my pregnant does get 3lbs of grain between them once a day and they are in prefect weight IMO for this stage of their pregnancy (Due 1st week of Jan through 1st week of Feb). They do get alfalfa at night/pasture in the day as well.


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

harleybarley said:


> Everything I've read says goats get fat inside before you can feel anything outside. When the babies really start growing, they don't leave much space for the rumen, and the abdominal fat takes even more space, so the obese doe has little room to process nutrients and has to use up fat reserves. (I wonder if chaffhaye might be a good option for overweight preggos? It's supposedly more easily digestible).
> 
> I have a girl who is prone to going fat. I won't grain her until she's well into pregnancy. The fetuses aren't doing much early on. You're really just feeding the doe in the first 60 days. .


As far as the chaffhaye... I would say it's not a bad idea, but in this case we would be talking about how to keep one going that was already allowed to get too fat and was having trouble, right? Just sayin'.

A couple of things changed my mind about feeding the heck out of a pregnant doe. One time I was at the sale yard and saw a very thin, diseased-looking, filthy dirty, nearly dying doe and beside her were two, basically healthy looking, goat kids. What are the chances this doe had a lot of human help in these kids being born alive? None. Meanwhile, at my house, I had been having all sorts of problems with PT does and pulling kids etc. My "luck" had been so bad that it was obvious I was doing something wrong. I think one of the things was being selenium deficient , but that's for another thread.
Then I found this article written by a dairy goat lady quiet a few years ago.
http://kinne.net/hypocal2.htm
It's a bit technical, but when I opened my mind a little, it was like looking in a mirror. I still believe this is a good article and try and live by it.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Crossroads Boers said:


> I don't understand why it says "Padding over the ribs is never used to accurately judge body condition." though? Anybody have thoughts on why that would be?


 Anybody?

I have no idea. But I did develop some interesting insights in my herd when I started trying to slip my fingers under those little side bones of the spine. All I knew before that was like alpacas - feel the shape of the top.

I am not a big fan of grain because it can acidify the rumen. My gallon-a-day milker gets a hair over 1 lb. of grain and that's the highest I've had to go this year. Early pregnancy is damn near a "dry" doe, and I think 2 lbs of grain is kind of a lot.

But her body is now using some of that grain to maintain the fat (like George Carlin's rant about taking care of "stuff"). If you cut her back, she's going to pull body reserves for a while - that's good, it's how you lose weight - but you don't want her in that negative-reserves mode when the kids start pulling energy. Fat reserves aren't balanced nutrition, you know?

Since she might be 60 days in, I don't think you want her in weight-loss mode at 90 days, so cutting back a little (25%?) "feels" better to me than cutting in half (that's a big drop!). Unless she's a 5 - then you've got a risky pregnancy, and pulling off some weight at the risk of losing the pregnancy "feels" like it might be worth the risk.

But I'm not a vet! Or an expert. Just a goat owner who tries to understand the best way to care for my herd and sometimes makes mistakes.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

harleybarley said:


> But her body is now using some of that grain to maintain the fat (like George Carlin's rant about taking care of "stuff"). If you cut her back, she's going to pull body reserves for a while - that's good, it's how you lose weight - but you don't want her in that negative-reserves mode when the kids start pulling energy. Fat reserves aren't balanced nutrition, you know?
> 
> Since she might be 60 days in, I don't think you want her in weight-loss mode at 90 days, so cutting back a little (25%?) "feels" better to me than cutting in half (that's a big drop!). Unless she's a 5 - then you've got a risky pregnancy, and pulling off some weight at the risk of losing the pregnancy "feels" like it might be worth the risk.


Good point.  ^

We all probably know this, but let me just say that it is possible for an "over-conditioned" doe to have a completely normal pregnancy and kidding. The doe may be more likely to have problems during her pregnancy, but she may not have any problems at all. I know a lot of breeders who have fat goats (including my own goats) who have kidded and carried just fine. I fully agree that it is safer and healthier for them to be on the thinner side while pregnant and over feeding can be very dangerous. But don't stress out about her being on the heavy side as she should do just fine. The information that has been shared is very good and is definitely something to consider for your next kidding season (as far as little or no grain for early pregnancy). I'd feel better about way less grain and more good quality hay for your pregnant does. I know you said you'd rather not do that though because you like your hay dealer. I've fed grain through every month of pregnancy for all 8-9 years that we've had pregnant goats and have never lost or had huge problems with a single doe to being overweight while prego. We've had problems with pregnant does before, but I can only think of one situation that was probably feed/weight related. I did lose a pregnant doe last year, but it was completely unrelated to her weight.


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

That article Tim shared about calcium deficiency is very good BTW.  I've read it a couple times in the past.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Tenacross said:


> As far as the chaffhaye... I would say it's not a bad idea, but in this case we would be talking about how to keep one going that was already allowed to get too fat and was having trouble, right? Just sayin'.
> 
> A couple of things changed my mind about feeding the heck out of a pregnant doe. One time I was at the sale yard and saw a very thin, diseased-looking, filthy dirty, nearly dying doe and beside her were two, basically healthy looking, goat kids. What are the chances this doe had a lot of human help in these kids being born alive? None. Meanwhile, at my house, I had been having all sorts of problems with PT does and pulling kids etc. My "luck" had been so bad that it was obvious I was doing something wrong. I think one of the things was being selenium deficient , but that's for another thread.
> Then I found this article written by a dairy goat lady quiet a few years ago.
> ...


 What a story! Cool that you saw the "other" part of the story in the skinny mother goat at the auction. It's counter-intuitive that the well-loved chunky goat may do worse in pregnancy than the skinny neglected goat! But goat physiology is designed to survive skinny - grain-fattened goats are a human creation.

I'll give that Kinne article another read. Always looking to take better care of my girls. Lately, that's meant less grain and more alfalfa.

I bought my chubby girl bred and she got toxemia when she kidded. This is the first time I'm breeding her again (she's thinner, but still about a BCS 3.5-4), thinking about a contingency plan just in case. Kind of thinking aloud about the chaffhaye.

Kinne's article is a good one, and an interesting note that toxemia can be caused by milk fever.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Crossroads Boers said:


> We all probably know this, but let me just say that it is possible for an "over-conditioned" doe to have a completely normal pregnancy and kidding.


 Do you think OP should cut back on grain now, or keep it at 2 lbs/day?

Have you dealt with toxemia? Do you think it's reasonably easy to manage/survive if caught early?

I only have one experience under my belt. I knew she was overweight when I bought her, but didn't know it raised her pregnancy risk and didn't know how to differentiate milk fever from toxemia from just being exhausted after kidding, or how to treat anything. But we got through and everyone survived.

I'm more of a "book-learning" newbie perspective and appreciate hearing from more experienced breeders who wouldn't thrash around like an idiot in the face of mild toxemia! LOL.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Ketone test strips were wonderful when I was trying to figure out if I was dealing with toxemia. Just dip it in the urine to find out. Once you're worried about a maybe-risky pregnancy, every little thing worries ya! Being able to set my mind at ease on other pregnancies - and monitor recovery on the toxemic one - was a big help.

The calcium article reminded me... alfalfa provides calcium, which helps maintain muscle tone, and you need good muscle tone to push a kid out. It's one of the reasons I like alfalfa better than grain.

Which has me wondering - what if you started substituting alfalfa pellets for some of that grain?


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## Crossroads Boers (Feb 19, 2011)

My answers in red.  


harleybarley said:


> Do you think OP should cut back on grain now, or keep it at 2 lbs/day?
> 
> I would cut back now, yes. But very slowly. I've done that with several of my pregnant does when I realized they were too heavy and they did fine.
> 
> ...


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

harleybarley said:


> It's counter-intuitive that the well-loved chunky goat may do worse in pregnancy than the skinny neglected goat! But goat physiology is designed to survive skinny - *grain-fattened goats are a human creation.*
> Kinne's article is a good one, and an interesting note that toxemia can be caused by milk fever.


Exactly. 
Although the article is titled hypocalcemia and offers good advise to treat a doe who may be so afflicted, I think the true genius of the article lies in the advise on how to manage does to avoid hypocalcemia, as I believe it would also help ward off a host of other problems with pregnant does due to being over weight. The fact is, most does just don't need all that much to gestate kids. I even follow the article's advise about not feeding straight alfalfa to a dry pregnant doe in the first 90 days, since the article claims they don't need the calcium yet and my Boer does can get too fat on just straight alfalfa. Of course everyone needs to manage to their situation and their goats, but like the article suggests, these problems just don't occur outside of "pet goats, family milkers, and show stock kept in relatively small, home-oriented herds."
We are literally feeding our goats to death in some situations. I know that is harsh to hear, but if it can save one person from the pain of losing a loved doe and her kids, then so be it. And I am no saint, or better than anyone else here. My does are probably still heavier than they should be as I write this.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Sounds like a good article to read for sure.

The only hay everyone gets here is as much 3rd cut alfalfa as they can waste.
No one gets grain till the last few days of pregnancy & throughout lactation.
There is a % doe with fat pockets hanging off her elbows & she kids just fine. I think there was one year she needed some assist.

The main problem I had one season where 4 out of 7 does needing assistance; with either one or both front legs not presented.
Chalked this up to not enough copper in their minerals. Switched up to a better loose mineral, same does same buck no problems as I recall except for one.
All my girls get BoSe shortly before kidding as we are in selenium def area.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Such great info, thanks so much! I did read the article a little bit, but want to wait and read it all tomorrow when the kids are in school so I'm not so distracted 
I will also try to do a body score. I do feel from loin to rear she is in pretty decent shape, but rubs to front definitely a lot of cover <not just hair lol>. Feeling her today, she has a lot of cover over her ribs.

We've never had a doe with so much cover before. Usually by breeding time I am concerned about getting weight on does, not trying to get it off! This does mom is one of the does I've been trying to get weight on, as well as another doe.

Ok, so I can cut her morning grain back to 1/2 cup, and a handful of cracked corn, and keep evening at 1 cup grain, 2 handfuls of cracked corn? Again, not sure how much corn would be good?

What I typically do is start cutting them back on grain 4-6 weeks before their due date, and add in a little bit of alfalfa pellets. If I think the doe is carrying multiples, I don't cut them back to anything less than 1lb of grain a day, plus alfalfa pellets. If they won't eat the alfalfa pellets <we have a couple that would sooner starve lol>, then I give them a tiny bit more grain instead, and supplement with tums.

Here's a few pics from today:

Her little sister <different sire> is on her left, and her mom is on her right.


















sister is behind her, mom on the right. She is clearly nothing like her mom except in the face, length & height









To give you an idea of how much she's grown/filled out... this was her back in late March.









Mid June


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Keep in mind too, that in winter they usually look a whole lot "fluffier"


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

nancy d said:


> Keep in mind too, that in winter they usually look a whole lot "fluffier"


 Yep they sure do lol! Last winter my husband said she was fat, but under all that fluff she really wasn't, she was a bit thin IMO. She had a wild coat, took months of brushing to get it all out :laugh:










She was very active in the spring, running, playing, etc. Now, with the added weight, she runs a little but usually does everything at a walk. I know most of it is because she is maturing and not playing like a kid anymore, and well being pregnant too, haha.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

^ Now that's about the most unusual pose ever!!:laugh:


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Pretty girl!

My puppy did that - he kept growing, kept growing, next thing I knew, he wasn't growing, he was getting fat!

Do you need the corn at all? If it's just to give energy for the cold, won't grain provide energy?

I think dairy goats we usually do the opposite - give alfalfa/pellets, then add in grain to feed the udder.

My chunky girl's daughters aren't chunky. I figure mom was just built to produce. Her weight came down, I dried her off, and she chunked back up again on alfalfa and grass! She's not built for vacations, I guess.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

nancy d said:


> ^ Now that's about the most unusual pose ever!!:laugh:


 LOL she tends to be an unusual goat :laugh: She was laying down flat on her side, I called her name, and instead of sitting up to look at me, she just turned her head over and was looking at me upside down!


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Silly girl!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

harleybarley said:


> Pretty girl!
> 
> My puppy did that - he kept growing, kept growing, next thing I knew, he wasn't growing, he was getting fat!
> 
> ...


Honestly, I really feel we can cut the corn out, but for a few I'd like to keep giving it, especially a doe who is really on the skinny side, she loves her cracked corn, and eats her grain better with it added :thumbup: Same with this particular doe's mom, she used to nibble/pick at feed, and was really bad about keeping weight on. She's had the best appetite she's ever had in the 2 1/2 years we've had her and eats her grain better with the added corn. 
The others IMO really don't need it, but I feel these 2 eat better when it's in there.

EDITED TO ADD:

You'd never believe this is the mother of the subject doe. This pic was taken back in July. She gets dragged down easily with nursing and weaning stress. Since having her youngest daughter back at her side, and getting 2 hefty meals a day, she's been gaining well. I'd like to keep her eating well, and good energy, especially with having 9 weeks left and having a pretty big belly. I'm worried she could possibly have triplets again <not a doe I'd ever let raise triplets>. 









She's getting good weight, starting to get a little loose skin on the chest, and cover over her shoulder's/rib's. I've been working on her gradually. But,







I feel adding cracked corn really improved her appetite


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

nancy d said:


> Silly girl!


When my son showed her as a baby last summer, she was so spoiled, well being a bottle baby, and the first/only one we've ever had, we had a blast with her. She was seldom in a pen, usually she stayed in the plastic chairs we brought along, or on top of the cooler :laugh:

My son is 13 and she is very close to him. There are days she doesn't want him all over her, but there are days she wants him right there, and she lets him know it.
Saturday night we burned a small brush pile, and she came over by us to enjoy the heat. My son knelt down to pet her, and she put her head in his lap and snuggled close to him, it was so adorable. I kept kicking myself for not having some kind of camera! He moved away just to see what she would do, and she moved and got even closer, resting her head against his chest, with a droopy, sleepy look on her face. It was so precious ♥


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