# At a loss. Again...



## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

So we are back with what appears to be the same stuff as last year... And I have goats in the house again. Please give suggestions- and ask questions. I am burnt trying to figure these out. I've already lost 4 kids this week- 3 Today alone! 1 known from selenium deficiency/white muscle- (not suprisingly since ALL his siblings have had this and I swear his mom is genetically prone to it. No matter if I get BoSe in them, it doesn't seem to help for this line.) 1 from pneumonia (did necropsy) and not sure on other 2. They had some what my living 2 have/symptoms showing.

This week's cases still surviving- Yuri and Little P.

Yuri is a 4 month old Boer. Solid red. Maybe weighs 20 pounds. Has had diarrhea for 2 weeks. Tried ReSorb- 2x daily drench for over a week. No luck. Finally bought Spectrogard- finally solid after 3 days. She is horribly weak. Total loss of muscle tone.. Cant standup by herself. But can stand for about 3 minutes if helped up. Temp is normal. Was dewormed with Prohibit on 9/28. Has been in the house since 9/27 when she lost the ability to get up. Wants to constantly eat and drinks fine. Have given- iron pills (dont have access to the injectable), probiotics, corid drench, and something for pnemonia (the name escapes me at the moment...) Suggestions? I dont think pneumonia. Eyes are still light pink, but I am treating the worms. She gets another dewormer when the sun come up.
















Lil P- is a 12 wk old boer. She has a cough. Eyes are red. No temp. Sounds congested. Also dewormed on 9/28. Been in the house since 10/3. She has a cyst on her jawline. She stands fine. Not a whole lot of interest in food. Originally brought in for dehydration. Thinking this one is pneumonia. She has had the same pnemonia med, as well as corid drench, and probiotics.









My other 2 that died unknown also had a couple other symptoms. (1 was 12wks and the other 6wks) There FeMancha color was a blood red. Like fire engine red. It was very dark. They were totally fine except diarrhea. The 12 wk old one suddenly couldn't stand and started "helicoptering" his head- but the rest of his body was straight as a board and solid like rigor mortis. He screamed non stop for about 5 minutes, then got quiet. Then he was gone. I held him as he was doing all of it. I knew he had died because his body muscles all went loose. He was one of my bottle babies that was slowly being weaned.
The 6 wk old did the same thing. Only I wasn't home for that. My mom was- and she said it was the same as the one before. He was also a "partial" bottle baby. His mom had a little milk but not enough. He just never grew either- he was maybe 8 lbs. He was so tiny. And he chugged milk up until today. I tried Resorb and Spectrogard on him, but it never worked to solidify him. His poops were also tan/light brown and watery. 
I know it isnt the milk because I use milk from my own dairy goats. They have their own kids on them and their kids aren't sick at all. I didnt do necropsies on these 2 since they were buried before I got home from work.

Any suggestions and questions are helpful. My main vet is out of the area til later next week so no help there. And the other vets around me are for lack of a better term- Death dealers. All they want to say is "Yes, it is sick. Let's just kill it. There is nothing we can do." Unless it is horses or dogs- then they can do a billion things.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Mmhyronimus said:


> So we are back with what appears to be the same stuff as last year... And I have goats in the house again. Please give suggestions- and ask questions. I am burnt trying to figure these out. I've already lost 4 kids this week- 3 Today alone! 1 known from selenium deficiency/white muscle- (not suprisingly since ALL his siblings have had this and I swear his mom is genetically prone to it. No matter if I get BoSe in them, it doesn't seem to help for this line.) 1 from pneumonia (did necropsy) and not sure on other 2. They had some what my living 2 have/symptoms showing.
> 
> This week's cases still surviving- Yuri and Little P.
> 
> ...


Did you have fecals run on them all to include coccidia? That would be my guess. They are at the right age for it. Was the fecal tested for bacteria? And they need probios cause of everything you are puttin in their bellies.

Have they all been bottle babies? How much were they being fed and how often for their weights? How was equipment sterilized?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Would it be possible for the next kidding, the newborns be put onto an unused clean pasture area with the does? By clean area, I mean a closed off section in the pasture that has been left to cleanse itself without any goats being on it, for three months or so before the kids are born.

Maybe consider not breeding the doe you were referring to as seeming to pass the selenium deficiency down to the kids. Or supplementing her more consistently throughout the entire year to keep the levels up prior to breeding.

Maybe deworming the youngest kids with something less toxic and harsh than prohibit would be a better route. It is possible their sensitive systems can't handle such a strong chemical. Highly recommend fecal testing, including coccidia count before and after deworming and/or CoRid.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Have the does been tested for CAE? Does your feed contain added selenium? 
Can you get Injectable Vitamin AD+E? At this point, I would throw everything at them. A great pneumonia medication (prescription of course) is Zactran. I've saved numerous kids with it. In my opinion, it is better then Nuflor. And it is a single injection. (Vit B complex is a good helper, too). 


I sure hope you can figure it out. It's too bad you are having all the problems.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm so sorry! What awful experiences. 

Remind me which country you are in again? 

What age are the dams?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Are the ones that don't make it all from the same does? Are they always bottle babies?


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

I normally deworm with Cydectin but I was out. They are all from different does. The 4mo that died was a bottle kid because his mom got mastitis really bad last year. The 6wk old- his mom has 1 teat due to injury. I have 4 other bottle babies with no issues.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

The other 4 bottle babies, is there a reason they can't be with their dams?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would guess coccidia as well..it can hit hard and do a lot of damage. Even when treated can leave a wave of damage behind, scaring making absorption of nutrients difficult. They can eat and eat and still grow thin.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

ksalvagno said:


> Are the ones that don't make it all from the same does? Are they always bottle babies?


Not all are bottle babies. All different does.


SalteyLove said:


> I'm so sorry! What awful experiences.
> 
> Remind me which country you are in again?
> 
> What age are the dams?


I'm in the US- in South Dakota.


NigerianNewbie said:


> Would it be possible for the next kidding, the newborns be put onto an unused clean pasture area with the does? By clean area, I mean a closed off section in the pasture that has been left to cleanse itself without any goats being on it, for three months or so before the kids are born.
> 
> Maybe consider not breeding the doe you were referring to as seeming to pass the selenium deficiency down to the kids. Or supplementing her more consistently throughout the entire year to keep the levels up prior to breeding.
> 
> Maybe deworming the youngest kids with something less toxic and harsh than prohibit would be a better route. It is possible their sensitive systems can't handle such a strong chemical. Highly recommend fecal testing, including coccidia count before and after deworming and/or CoRid.


I cannot give them a totally clean area. Our current area does not allow it. For the most part they get bales out of a bale feeder and dont eat much green grass. My next group will be in Jan/Feb/March and we will have snow then, so they will be confined to the barn. It is forecasted to be a bad winter..


Sfgwife said:


> Did you have fecals run on them all to include coccidia? That would be my guess. They are at the right age for it. Was the fecal tested for bacteria? And they need probios cause of everything you are puttin in their bellies.
> 
> Have they all been bottle babies? How much were they being fed and how often for their weights? How was equipment sterilized?


I have no way to run fecals since my vet is gone. Like I said- the other vets around me dont do anything but kill.

As for milking- I hand milk into the bottles I feed with- then when done they get washed. The bottles and nipples never get reused without washing. I wish I could get hook the kids to the does I milk but only 1 doe will allow that..


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

NigerianNewbie said:


> The other 4 bottle babies, is there a reason they can't be with their dams?


The other 4- 1 doe FF never got milk in- she had twins and 1 kid got adopted by a non pregnant doe that lost her kid in Feb- she grew a precocious udder just to keep him- but non enough milk to be worthwhile. And the other 2 does were FF who love their kids but didnt get enough milk in to feed their kids enough. This last kidding has been a complete mess.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Fecal test can also be shipped through the mail for testing. Most vet office's will run fecal test if asked. Is your regular vet permanently gone or just away for a while?


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Mmhyronimus said:


> The other 4- 1 doe FF never got milk in- she had twins and 1 kid got adopted by a non pregnant doe that lost her kid in Feb- she grew a precocious udder just to keep him- but non enough milk to be worthwhile. And the other 2 does were FF who love their kids but didnt get enough milk in to feed their kids enough. This last kidding has been a complete mess.


Lactating does need extra nutrition also consisting of alfalfa for milk production. Hay as a sole source of nutrition won't provide enough protein, calories or the much needed extra calcium supplement alfalfa provides.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Then I think we need to go back to basics and tell us exactly what you feed them and all the supplements you give.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

You can mail fecals 

https://www.facebook.com/meadowmistlabservice/

https://www.meadowmistlabservice.com/441123869

https://www.meadowmistlabservice.com/441136255

I would get fecals on the sick ones and as many others as possible ASAP. You can contact the lady who does the test if you have any questions. There are also other places to mail fecals if you want a different lab.

I would start spectogard on anyone with diarrhea immediately since you have had so many die. Dosage is 6ml a day for 3 days. And Probios (or any goat/ruminant probiotic) gel at least 2 times a day.

I think the not being able to get a fresh pasture/area may make this hard. Also with it being cold, is really hard on babies. Does anyone think they need some kind of sun type light being inside?

Do you have Red Cell or Magic Cell? Can you order from Jeffers? They have a lot of stuff you could try. I can post more info once you let us know what you can get, what you are feeding exactly, etc.

Just my :2c: I am not an expert and have no idea what is killing your babies. These are just things to try, based on reading your post.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

With that many does not having enough milk production to raise twins I would strongly suspect selenium deficiency or maybe nutrition is the initial issue. 

Do all the kids seems fine for the first several weeks? Active and bouncy and thick and growing a half pound a day?


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Ok. Lil P is back up and running. I was right with pneumonia for her. Meds are working and she is going back outside tomorrow.

And I think I have figured out Yuri. This seems a lot like Polio that we had last year with Autumn. (Who by the way is doing fabulous!)

She has the head tilt (when she can hold it up), no muscle strength. She keeps trying to eat but cant control her head. She will drink from a liquid drench syringe happily. She nibbles hay and feed when she gets her head into the bowl.









I am currently out of penicillin though. Can I use Duramycin for tonight? I have the B-complex to give her.

We feed Big Gain feed. And grass hay. Bedding is straw hay which they occasionally eat. Minerals vary- last couple have been Sheep/Goat blocks since I had the sheep running with them. Sheep got moved out last weekend and I got them a cattle mineral salt until my order for goat mineral comes in this week.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

So you don't copper bolus and give extra selenium on top of the minerals? Do you give a loose mineral?


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I do strongly support the idea being put forth that mineral deficiencies are underlying this inability to cope with life, and that they need loose minerals in an extremely digestible form. 

Consider ordering some Replamin Gel Plus and giving everyone a 5 cc dose daily for a week.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

ksalvagno said:


> So you don't copper bolus and give extra selenium on top of the minerals? Do you give a loose mineral?


I do give a loose mineral. The one I normally order has been back ordered at my local store. And I've been in a continual fight with my vet about getting a bottle of BoSe- he says its not a prescription but the stores all tell me it is, but he won't let me buy 1 from him. Ya- not fun. And my vet is out of the area until Fri. He went to a family gathering out of state. I have been debating copper bolus and I think I am going to find some and start doing those.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would also strongly suggest getting Replamin Plus. It has plenty of selenium in it. I really suspect mineral deficiency is your ultimate problem. Unfortunately even loose mineral isn't enough.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

How sad to see those small ones, who obviously don't feel good at all!







Good, though, to hear you try your very best for them. 

Many better advice than mine have already been given. I only wonder, if this


Mmhyronimus said:


> Bedding is straw hay which they occasionally eat.


might be the main problem? Whatever it is that harms them, they get it again and again, because they do not understand the danger of eating from the floor, no matter how little they actually find there?

From this far away, I can only wish you the very best luck in trying to save your goats! :hugclap)


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Order the bottle of BoSe or MultiMin90 from Valley Vet online and just select the option for them to contact your veterinarian for a script. Hopefully he'll just approve it that way. 

How many goats do you have and how tame are they? Replamin Plus is a really great oral option but the frequency makes its use in less tame herd not feasible.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All great advice.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

SalteyLove said:


> Replamin Plus is a really great oral option but the frequency makes its use in less tame herd not feasible.


Unless you are willing to regularly wrangle goats lol


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

SalteyLove said:


> How many goats do you have and how tame are they? Replamin Plus is a really great oral option but the frequency makes its use in less tame herd not feasible.


I have 90 goats currently. Most are tame, but some aren't. I can get most to come up to me, especially if I have a treat. I actually have 4 that if they see me carrying a liquid syringe they come running thinking they are getting a treat.

Today not much has changed. I did get the generic Replamin Gel. And I got Penicillin also. The 2 kids inside (Yuri and Lil P) are getting the Replamin gel (every other day), probiotic paste, milk, feed, grass, penicillin, B Complex, Magik, and Power Punch (only 1x a day for the PP). Lil P collapsed last night and now is in the same condition as Yuri. Yuri's eyes are still white so she is getting an iron pill every day. Lil P's eyes are a normal red/pink.
Penicillin and B Complex are every 6 hrs. (Yuri is 22 lbs and Lil P is 20- so dosing 2cc of each every 6 hrs.) I would dose more but Yuri is skin a bones and I already dont think she is absorbing it well. Any liquids are fed through a drench syringe. They nibble grass and feed pellets by themselves, but wont drink the liquids.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes with 90 goats Replamin Plus is not the answer to mineral deficiencies. I'm assuming you have a chute system to vaccinate & hoof trim occasionally? You definitely need MultiMin90. I suppose Bose & copper bolusing would do, but to me MultiMin90 is the answer in larger herds.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Lost Yuri last night before I got home. And LilP passed early this morning. And as I'm writing this Creme is slowly passing in my arms.  The vet is coming out later but won't be out be Creme passes.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh no, I am so very sorry. 

Have a necropsy done, so you get answers.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

No.... I'm so sorry


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry. Please have a full necropsy done with blood and tissue testing. At this point you need to find out the cause.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

So sorry you are have all these troubles.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Condolences to you, so sorry to hear of your loss of these little ones.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Be sure the necropsy includes mineral analysis of liver. Also have the vet send a blood sample for mineral panel from one of your adults that receives typical care and is middle ranging in the herd.


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## MadCatX (Jan 16, 2018)

Mmhyronimus said:


> Ok. Lil P is back up and running. I was right with pneumonia for her. Meds are working and she is going back outside tomorrow.
> 
> And I think I have figured out Yuri. This seems a lot like Polio that we had last year with Autumn. (Who by the way is doing fabulous!)
> 
> ...


Do online search - Penicillin / Amoxicillin can be purchased at fish stores.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Very sorry for your losses. Please let us know results of necropsies.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh, poor kids, and poor you! I agree, do try your best to find the cause!







At least, you were able to give them love! :hug:


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## Karla Marr (Jul 31, 2018)

Mmhyronimus said:


> So we are back with what appears to be the same stuff as last year... And I have goats in the house again. Please give suggestions- and ask questions. I am burnt trying to figure these out. I've already lost 4 kids this week- 3 Today alone! 1 known from selenium deficiency/white muscle- (not suprisingly since ALL his siblings have had this and I swear his mom is genetically prone to it. No matter if I get BoSe in them, it doesn't seem to help for this line.) 1 from pneumonia (did necropsy) and not sure on other 2. They had some what my living 2 have/symptoms showing.
> 
> This week's cases still surviving- Yuri and Little P.
> 
> ...


I too would say Cocci..I have used toltrazurile with better results than corrid and doesnt seem to be so hard on their guts. But I also give a Vitamin B complex with Thiamine in a gel form..I would also use the spectogard. 
If you can get them cleared up I would do fecal in 2-3 weeks and if showing large numbers for cocci or worms repeat. If wormy you need to double worm them with 2 different wormers. and repeat. I would suggest you get necropsy done if you lose another it will help to pin point what your dealing with but if you feel you dont have a vet available right now I would go ahead and treat for cocci and perhaps worms too at this point I dont think you can wait. Their condition by the pictures is very bad. They look very thin and lethargic. I would also make a temp pen and give them some good hay and going easy on the feed until you have them feeling better. I think you have gotten some really good advice from what I see on the post. I hope you are able to save them and also find out what you are dealing with for future reference.


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## moonspinner (Oct 5, 2007)

Boy, you've really gone through a rough time and I am so very sorry for your losses. Yes, do get a necropsy. And you can send in fecal results yourself - I use Mid America which is $10 per sample plus shipping. You get the results quickly.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

We had a necropsy of all 3 done. Pneumonia in all 3. Plus major tape worms in 2. We had switched to Prohibit and Cydectin because of the previous problems with pole worms. We didnt realize that they didn't kill tape worms, because we had never had an issue with tapeworms before. 
So everyone in the barn (kids and their moms) were wormed with Valzaban today. Lost 1 kid this morning- also pneumonia. I did a self necropsy on that one, since the vet showed me the other things to look for. Waiting on the vet to get me a different dewormer I can use on my currently breeding goats since I can't use Valzaban without them miscarrying. 
Did a lung culture and the vet is getting me a different pneumonia med since there was a bacteria present. (Starts with a P but can't remember it.) Also did a poop culture and there is a small bit of Coccyx. All water tanks were given Corid solution. Don't have any automatic waterers so I could mix the solution for the whole tank. (2- 40gal, 2-20 gal, and 6- 10gal tanks) We are to deworm in 1 week with Valzaban, then in another week with Valzaban, then in 6 weeks with Cydectin. 

I don't even want to know what the vet bill is going to be. But- since I won't be making money on selling meat kids, I decided to skin almost all of the kids that have died and tan the hides to sell. It probably won't bring me quite as much money but it's better that being completely broke. And I have the stuff to tan the hides since I had started doing it with rabbits this last year.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You may want to consider the pneumonia vaccine for your adults. Then maybe next year they can pass on the immunity to the kids. So sorry it has been such a bad year.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

ONCE PMH IN is a good vaccine that goes up the nose..1 cc each side. Works great and no shot reaction. Im sorry for your troubles.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Sitting with a 1yo tonight. She was down when I got home. Hubby said she was fine at 10 when he did checks. Gave her the last of the old pneumonia med I had. Did it IM and rubbed the area and kept moving the area to get it moving in her system. Nutmeg is more of a pet than anything. She has no balance and cant even sit up straight. Currently I am sitting with her in my bathroom on the floor. She keeps having almost seizures where she throws her head back and stiffens up. I keep talking to her and rubbing her to keep her fighting.  I don't know how much more I can take of this. I lost her mom Pepper earlier this summer to infection and miscarriage. Nutmeg is her only kid that survived but she never grew big like her mom.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

Aww. I hope she pulls through. So very sorry for all your heartaches and losses.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

:bighug: :imsorry:


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Was up til 530am with her. Finally put her next to the couch so I could sleep. She snuggled with my arm all night. She had 1 more seizure about 6- I ended up getting headbutted. Its 845am now- But she is still alive! It's going to be a long day with no sleep, but she is still going and I have 80 others I must feed since the Sun is up. Dont know how that is gonna work since Nutmeg won't let me get more than 5 ft from her. 
The wind has picked up like crazy here. It is supposed to storm soon.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Did you give her a high dose injection of B-Complex?

What is her rectal temperature?

Can you get more antibiotics today?


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

I'm sorry if I missed it, I scanned the other posts. 
Have you had a fecal done on the remaining goats? I saw that the vet said you lost several to pneumonia and worms, I would want to make sure they were checked for coccidian as well. The goats in the pictures look very ill, and I know you are working hard to figure things out for them. Coccidia can manifest in several ways and make them weak and more susceptible to other problems. 
If you do think that theses problems are genetic in original and they have an increased susceptibility to parasites / disease I would look at starting to cull animals that aren't passing good health traits onto their kids.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good questions, we do need more info.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

She looks a little dehydrated in that last picture..around the eyes seem tight and drawn. Offer some molasses water and leaves...what was her temp? What meds did you give? S


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod:


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

For Nutmeg- Gave Penicillin and B Complex both. She absolutely refuses to let me put anything near her mouth. I know she is drinking from her bowl since the water went down and she peed like a horse when I stood her up a bit ago. She just stood for a good 40 minutes. She is shaky walking, but I think for the most part it is learning to walk on tile. She walks ok on a towel and rug. She does shake for a bit when she first stands up. She is definitely holding her own self up now for sitting and hasn't had a (mini seizure) since 6am this morning. Not sure what else to call it- she stiffens up, shakes, and cant control her body.








And look who the smarty pants is that decided she wanted to eat the straw and stood up all by herself!









For the others- they did test for Coccidia. There was a small amount in 2 of them. They all have Corid in the water tanks now, and they do have medicated feed.

We only had 1 more death today- but I can definitely say it wasn't from illness! I will do a necropsy tomorrow to double check but I found 1 of my little kids gone tonight. Junior somehow got pinned under one of the full panels and it looks like someone either jumped on it or laid on it. His body was definitely not normal. His head and chest were flattened and his lower body was hanging out from below the panel. It is sad but accidents do happen and I know I can not control those.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry this is such a bad year. I hope your for pulls through.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

And I lost my Heart's Star. She is Creme's sister. This damn cold! I went out and found her shivering. Brought her in to warm her but couldn't get her warmed fast enough. 









It's now 32°F outside but with the wind feels like 17°F. I hate winter.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

My heart breaks for you. I'm so sorry.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Going from 80° F to 45°F with rain to 32°F with 40 + mph wind does not help at all for getting sick kids feeling better. Especially with all of that in the last five days. I moved Autumn inside with nutmeg. She knows her way around the house since she spent all last winter with me inside. But I also brought her in because she wasn't interested in food and was just standing in a corner shivering. I need this horrible weather to go away! I am not ready for winter yet.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How sad, I am so sorry. 

Hope you get answers soon.

A vet needs to intervene.
Something is majorly wrong with so many dying. 

How is your feed, any mold?

Feeding too much grain?

Do they have anemia?

What are they all being fed?


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

I agree with Toth, something more is going on. 
This isn’t typical presentation for pneumonia, which is typically a fairly quick killer but responds well to antibiotics. They could be getting pneumonia secondary to something else. Are you able to get a second vets opinion? 
Most of these goats your showing look like they have something chronic going on, they are all very small for their age and have pretty rough coats. 
Have you have your hay and water tested?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

We are very concerned.


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## 21goaties (Mar 13, 2018)

toth boer goats said:


> Something is majorly wrong with so many dying.


I agree. 
That weather sounds horrible. 
Maybe pause breeding while you try to figure this out? 
I hope Autumn is ok.
:angel: for the goaties who have passed.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

I hadn't come across this thread until now.

My heart goes out to you and your goats.

We have had very similar weather and I worry every day. 80 degrees to 50 degrees in a day with rain. I think our weather is steadying out now, I hope it does for you too.

I happen to equate my goats' ability to fighting off this TERRIBLE (and surely illness-inducing) weather to the immune boosting regimens I consistently keep them on.

I HIGHLY recommend giving all of your goats a proactive regimen of 1-2 cloves of garlic daily, raw and crushed.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but 500-1000 mg of vitamin c daily in the form of human chewables is also great.

I also recommend HerBiotic herb mix by Fir Meadow LLC. This is another wonderful natural antibiotic formula, I give it anywhere from 1-3 times weekly. In very severe situations of immunity issues every other day is beneficial.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

I’m so sorry for all you’re going through! I have absolutely no advice for you, but just want to let you know we are here to support you all the way!!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> I hadn't come across this thread until now.
> 
> My heart goes out to you and your goats.
> 
> ...


This is a lot harder to do when you have about 80 goats.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

ksalvagno said:


> This is a lot harder to do when you have about 80 goats.


Group herd management is possible. All of these items can be topped on feed etc.

However at least for the weaker goats, that are more at-risk, it's surely possible.

I have a friend with 60+ goats who are all in herbal regimens of HerBiotic and more.

Many herds give herbals to their group via water source or over feed.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

We lost Mama Carmel to pneumonia on Monday. And looks like I'm gonna lose Little George today. I have Mama Cormeum in the house- she is down with pneumonia too. The pneumonia is just killing everyone this year. 

Vet switched us from Zuprevo to Draxxin. Not seeing much change though. They can be fine and happy and running one day- then laying on their side screaming in pain and not being able to breathe the next. 

Nutmeg is still going. She is up and walking. She goes out to graze during the day and back in my house at night. She just doesn't have the best balance. 

I will answer questions in a bit. Been running like crazy here...


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I haven't been here for a while. Hugs, Deep, Tight, Long hugs. I'm so sorry.

I agree with wanting you to consider Pneumonia Vaccine. I used PMH Once IN and was extremely happy with it. 

I agree that the pneumonia seems to be a secondary problem... that something gets them down that allows the pneumonia to take over and finish them off.

Corid in the water troughs isn't the best way to fight Cocci, because there is no way to ensure they are getting the full amount of drug necessary. If this, because of the size of your herd (legit reason) is the way you must do this, I do highly recommend putting a very large amount of the drug in your water. I'd also recommend top dressing their feed with Probios powder as you fight this.

One last suggestion, it involves the garlic idea. My closest GFS (Gordon's Food Service) carries large bags of already peeled garlic cloves. I'd consider getting some and topdressing your feed with them, too. Not all your goats will eat them, but some will! and the garlic may well help those who "help themselves"

Again, Deep, Tight, Long hugs.


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

mariarose said:


> One last suggestion, it involves the garlic idea. My closest GFS (Gordon's Food Service) carries large bags of already peeled garlic cloves. I'd consider getting some and topdressing your feed with them, too. Not all your goats will eat them, but some will! and the garlic may well help those who "help themselves"
> 
> Again, Deep, Tight, Long hugs.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

21goaties said:


> I agree.
> That weather sounds horrible.
> Maybe pause breeding while you try to figure this out?
> I hope Autumn is ok.
> :angel: for the goaties who have passed.


Autumn is doing good. She got brought in because she was cold. She wen back out the next day. Mainly I let her in to keep company with Nutmeg.



Robinsonfarm said:


> I agree with Toth, something more is going on.
> This isn't typical presentation for pneumonia, which is typically a fairly quick killer but responds well to antibiotics. They could be getting pneumonia secondary to something else. Are you able to get a second vets opinion?
> Most of these goats your showing look like they have something chronic going on, they are all very small for their age and have pretty rough coats.
> Have you have your hay and water tested?


So the reason my goats look small is because they are. I actually raise a "mini" boer style. One of our old bucks was a Mini-Cross. I'm working on the rough coats. The water is part of the problem. It is pretty high in iron. We have been trying to find a way to filter it from the well outside.



toth boer goats said:


> How sad, I am so sorry.
> 
> Hope you get answers soon.
> 
> ...


The vet has been out many times. He is somewhat at a loss as well for all the pneumonia. We feed Big Gain feed. No additional grain for the goats. We used to feed corn too but that was removed when we switched the Big Gain type. We had mold this summer on 1 batch. But haven't seen any lately.

A couple are anemic and we are still working on the worms. You name it, we probably unfortunately have it. Our property is the hardest problem with the worms. The previous owners had sheep and cattle- they decimated the yard and were packed with a ton of different issues since they were trying to be "organic and free range."

I AM NOT DISSING THIS WAY OF RAISING ANIMALS!! I only know that their way of doing it was not done right. They believed in NO meds, NO vets, NO vaccines, No anything. They had 50 cows and 40 sheep on 18 acres. They had animals starving since they fed them almost nothing. Just let them graze with an occasional bale.

The vet has been working with me to try to get the worms controlled. It's been hard though since some worms are getting to be resistant of some dewormers.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Ok- for George- he is 10lbs. My vet gave the order of 1cc of Draxxin per 20lbs. Does that sound right? I have no issues when giving to the big ones, but with the little ones I over worry about dosing.

I'm working on getting him warmed up. He doesn't have a fever- he is COLD. His mouth feels like ice. Got him wrapped in a towel and a heat pack. I'm keeping him up right so that he can breathe better. He was gasping and having mini-seizures about an hr ago but now he doesnt seem to be gasping as much. He sounds very congested though. He doesnt have the strength to stay upright by himself. He seems to be getting louder a bit.


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

Mariarose made a good comment about the Corid, Corid in the water trough is very ineffective in fighting coccidian. There is no way to insure that all of the animals are getting the correct dose. Giving too small of a dose is how resistance is built up in the animals. 
Looking for another medication to treat the coccidian is probably a good idea now, something that you can dose them individually. I understand that having a large number that makes it hard, but you have to be able to treat each animal as needed.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Draxxin is 1 cc per 100# last I checked. It's given 2 times 7 days apart. Draxxin hits the lungs, which is what you need..with you loosing goats to pneumonia I would also do Nuflor ( 3 cc per 100#) days 2-5 then booster Draxxin on day 7. Supporting them with garlic is an excellent way to help boost their immune system. You can make a paste with garlic and olive oil


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

happybleats said:


> Draxxin is 1 cc per 100# last I checked. It's given 2 times 7 days apart. Draxxin hits the lungs, which is what you need..with you loosing goats to pneumonia I would also do Nuflor ( 3 cc per 100#) days 2-5 then booster Draxxin on day 7. Supporting them with garlic is an excellent way to help boost their immune system. You can make a paste with garlic and olive oil


1 cc per 100# ??? Now I feel like I was told to WAY overdose. 

And no olive oil at this house. I'm allergic to olives so nothing related to them here. I will try the garlic with my couple that aren't at 100%. Little George and I are just sitting and snuggling still to try to warm him up.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If the vet gave you the dosage for draxxin, follow that dosage. Dosing does change and different areas do different dosages.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

ksalvagno said:


> If the vet gave you the dosage for draxxin, follow that dosage. Dosing does change and different areas do different dosages.


That makes me feel better. His go to has always been Zuprevo. And I have never used Draxxin before.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content








Little George is still fighting. He is finally warming up. Still very worried about him.















Cormeum is still being a little poop. She won't stand or even try. She keeps snorting at my mom's dogs in their been in front of her. She has a tremendous appetite. She has drank a bit too. She just refuses to even try to stand.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Mmhyronimus said:


> And no olive oil at this house


 Any good oil will work.



ksalvagno said:


> If the vet gave you the dosage for draxxin, follow that dosage. Dosing does change and different areas do different dosages.


1 cc per 100 and 1 cc per 20# is a huge difference. I would call and double check that.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

happybleats said:


> Any good oil will work.
> 
> 1 cc per 100 and 1 cc per 20# is a huge difference. I would call and double check that.


I did. And they wrote it on the bottle and the box. 

Also- is drooling a worse symptom? George is drooling like crazy. I haven't given him anything since I want his temp up first. And none of the others have drooled this much.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Drooling would be a sign of polio or listeriosis due to facial paralysis. Can you see any eye twitching? Circling? Regardless, give him a big injection of B-Complex. 

For goats with chest congestion, Robitussin DM can be used from the human pharmacy.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh dear, I agree with SalteyLove.
Doesn't sound good.
Have the vet come out right away.

Somehow, get the goat on her feet.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Drooling can also be from pneumonia..


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

We lost George yesterday afternoon. Pneumonia- he just couldn't get enough air. Cormeum is up and walking- shaky but walking. Nutmeg is out walking pasture with the kids and their mamas. Cormeum is walking my yard with the breeding group to eat leaves and grass. 

Currently no other goats are sick. Which is good since my day has been horrid already. 1 of my mom's dogs has congestive heart failure and isnt doing well. And my hubby got in a minor car accident this morning. He is fine- just popped the tire and bent the rim on the van.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)




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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh no, I am so sorry.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

What an ordeal! And 80 goats to feed and water in addition, you have got a basket full with work! :bighug:


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

So glad to hear that Cormeum is up.

Could you ask your vet if the type of pneumonia found by the culture from the necropsy is a type that is controlled by the pneumonia vaccines? 

If yes, it may be prudent to vaccinate the herd now. Actually, it's probably prudent to vaccinate the herd now either way!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

very sorry for all you are dealing with. Seems when it rains it pours..((hugs))


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Well. Had a while without a death. Lost 1 kid this morning. Did the necropsy myself to see if it was the same as before.
 






Pneumonia







Compounded with tapeworms from hell. She had about a foot of intestine packed with tapeworms. (Yes- she is also skinned- I've been tanning the hides to sell. All these losses are losing a ton of money.)

We have tried Safeguard and Valzaban. Gonna call the vet and try to find something else. You cant tell she was wormed less than a week ago. And given Draxxin 8 days ago.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sorry you lost another one.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry, at least you know now.

Those wormers sadly didn't work.
So you are going to have to find one which will work, to save the other goats. 

Contact your vet and show them what you had found. :hug:


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Im so sorry. Im hearing a lot that Valbazen didn't address the tape worm. (dose is 1 cc per 10# 3 days in a row for tape..booster in 10 days for 3 days again)
Praziquantel Is good to use..Equimax horse paste has this in it..dose at 3 times the horse dose...so 100# goats gets a 300# dose.
I choose Herbal parasite formula from LOH and Cinnamon Ess. oil given highly diluted orally. After treatment here one buckling pooped a huge blob of tape. Everyone else had mild case..but they do seem to be stubborn! Again, Im sorry for your loss

After worming for heavy tape worm, i would also give cd antitoxin and Milk of magnesia to help with toxins and dead worm load.


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## Karen Kuntz (Apr 25, 2018)

I am so sorry, so heartbreaking. Have you tested any of the goats for TB? I have been following your postings and TB crossed my mind initially while reading and especially now after seeing a lung.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I can recommend Equimax for tapeworms. I don't use Valbazen any longer.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Quest Plus and Zimectrin Gold are the other OTC options with Praziquantel for tapeworms. But perhaps your vet will recommend a cat/dog dewormer as there are more options that way. Sorry for this loss. 

Surely the vet recommended more than one injection of Draxxin for pneumonia? Needs at least two.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Equimax works better than Zimectrin and Quest as it has higher amounts of Prazequantel. I recommend Equimax too. Works great to expel tapes and kills all life stages.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Very well done to find the cause! Well done, and GOOD LUCK!!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

@Mmhyronimus - did you end up vaccinating the herd for pneumonia?


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

May I suggest contact your local agriculture dept. And ask them if you have selenium in your soil or not. They can also tell you what area has higher protien in the hay. 
Are your does current on all their shots prior to pregnancy? 
I have found with a loose mineral free fed, a higher % hay, and good grain, and lots of clean water..kids stay healthier.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

I'm close to just completely giving up with goats. This last week has been horrible again.

I just lost my big Buck Mitch. He died is my arms not 10 minutes ago. I've lost 2 kids and 1 doe this week. I have 3 more kids and 2 more does that I dont know if will survive the week. I haven't even been able to to pull hides. With my arthritis, I'm next to useless myself during the cold snaps.

All goats have gotten Draxxin. The Draxxin I have is Draxxin 25. Doing dosage of 1cc per 20 lbs. Even the ones not showing symptoms in the last 48 hrs. I've given Banamine to the ones that sound the worse. I have my smallest kids in the house. 8 inside currently.
Outside temps are swinging- but mostly low. Highs of 38°F and lows of 10°F.

I just don't know what else to do. My husband says I am too close, but I'm not someone who is mentally and physically seperate from my animals. My vets here are pretty much useless.

All are getting Corid- mixed in water since I cant catch them all. Doing feed and grass- I know it's not thee best grass but it's what I can afford. Doing probiotics. Doing Magik to those who are skinny. Trying to get wormers going as often as possible.


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## Goats Rock (Jun 20, 2011)

I am so sorry you are going thru all that. I wish I knew what to do to help you.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm really sorry another bad week is happening. 

What type of shelter is available and are some goats being kept out of the shelter by more dominant animals?


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Our barn is a machine shop that we insulated the walls. I have 5 smaller shelters inside the barn. These are not insulated tho. I have heat lamps spaced throughout the barn- some in the mini shelters, some are not. I currently have 69 goats and 1 Midnite (technically a sheep, but is more of a goat/dog) in the barn, as well as all the chickens, ducks, and rabbits. At night, everyone is locked inside. During the day, only the ones that want to go outside do. Water tank is inside the barn with a tank heater in it. There are hay feeders inside as well.

There it airflow around the top, and all the goats sleep in groups. I will try to go take some photos to post.


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

Does the barn have a concrete floor? They really need good ventilation in barns to help cut down on respiratory illness. 
You have a lot of goats and I understand how hard it is to work with individual animals, but you really need to come up with a system where you can catch and doctor individual animals. Corrid in the water is really ineffective, you dont know if they are getting the correct amount, Under dosing is worse than no treatment at all. Im not saying that to be mean, I really do understand how hard it is. I've struggled in the past with how to handle my animals. We've mad small pens where we can run them in and work them individually, and I've sold off animals to get to a better number that is more manageable for me. I do 95% of the goat work myself, its hard!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:up:I agree, what kind of shelter?

What was their temp before you gave Draxxin?

Draxxin is the last to go to drug, it is very strong. It is used when Nuflor or other lower antibiotics stop working.

I see Draxxin is suppose to dosed at 1.1cc per 100 lbs, good for 7 days. Doing 2 doses for a full 14 day coverage.

Giving Banamine is wise to help with respiratory, stomach issues or high fever, however, it can lower body temp as well, if a goat is already sub temp, that could be bad along with cold weather. 
For any skinny or unhealthy goat, a heat lamp would help so they can better regulate temp, until stronger and temp is normal. Or putting a sweater on them. Do they have winter fluff? If not, they cannot stay warm.

At least getting a fecal on the worse goat for cocci and worms will tell you if they need treatment for this or that. 
You do seem to have a tapeworm issue. So, you are going to have to use a wormer which will kill them off and get them under control. 
You will have to treat properly and go by each of their weights.
Be sure to follow up when it is time.

Corid mixed in water is not the best choice and will not do anything to treat them. It must be given individually for 5 days, I hate to say.
Otherwise, the cocci will continue to destroy the gut lining, which does permanent damage and then, the goat cannot absorb nutrients and therefore, they remain thin and unhealthy or may die.

Also check for mites and lice.
Treat, if the have them. 

I sadly have to say, if you cannot treat your goats, hire someone to help you so they get help.
Otherwise, they will die on you.
Or sadly, find them new homes.
I am not trying to be mean, it is just they are needing treatment and you will have to do this the proper way in order for them to get better or they will die. 

They will need a good quality hay such as alfalfa, it puts on weight and keeps them warm. Of course, introduce them to it gradually.
They need a good 16% grain as well.
at least. Introduce slowly.
They cannot gain weight on just grass hay, it has no good nutrients in it.

Do they have free choice, loose salt and minerals?

Probiotics is good. 
Fortified vit B complex SQ at 6 cc's per 100 lbs helps as well, to those who are the worse. 

I honestly would get a vet involved anyway, to help you with parasite issues and try to get things under control. 

Getting a fecal periodically for cocci and worms helps to determine what is going on with the goats.
Checking the inner lower inner eyelid coloring for anemia will let you know they have an issue. 
Check the famancha chart. 
This way, you will know when to get a fecal done or when to treat.

If a goat is anemic, they can die from that too. If white, that is really critical and those will need a blood transfusion. 
If you cannot afford that, for those goats, you can try injected iron supplement, it gets into their system quicker, but can be overdosed if you are not careful. That is why you should be guided by a vet. 
It may or may not save those who have white lower eyelids though. 
For those who are light pink,
giving horse red cell orally at 6 cc's per 100 lbs daily for 1 week, then 1 x a week thereafter will help. 
Checking daily, and at anytime the coloring is borderline famancha safe, stop at that time. 

Tapeworms are hard to get rid of. 
If you are feeding on the ground they all can pick up tape worms.

How have you wormed in the past?
Do you worm often, like monthly, or?


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Outside the barn. 







This is inside the big door on the front. We have wood panels, with insulation on them about half way up the door. Covering all of the door is a tarp to reduce the wind. It is a mess.







Inside the door- this is the duck/chicken area. Excuse the mess, it is still the machine/tool storage mess.







This area is my basic milking area. We aren't milking right now, so I've been pulling my weaker does into here to feed them seperate. 







Here is one of the feeders. You can see the insulated walls, and the open area for the sunlight to come in. 







Here is a different shot of the one hay feeder. Harpy is the front goat pictured here. Just lost her last kid on Monday. She is always rough looking after she kids. She has been 1 of my problem children since the start. Once she dries up the rest of the way, she will get fat and sassy again. 







This is the other side of the hay feeder. You can see 1 of the mini shelters. They all have heat lamps in them. I have some turned off during the day so they dont all burn out as fast.







This is directly behind the previous shot. (360° turn). This shelter is one that the light is off in during the day.







Here is my biggest mini shelter. It also has a light off during the day. It is 2x the size of the others. There is a hay feeder next to it. You can see some of the goats eating out of it.







This is the middle shelter. You can see the back side of it in picture 7. This light is also off during the day. The straight fence panel on the left side of the photo is there for a wind block and brace incase any drafts come in the door and to brace some other pieces.







This shows the water tanks, as well as 1 of the floating heat lamps. This is a 360° turn from photo 8. This shows part of the back door. 







The back door has a rolling metal top half and an insulated door door on the bottom that we built. The opening part is behind the white panel on the left side. The green cover is actually indoor grass style carpet. Not the most insulting, but it helps to cut the wind. There is a 4 inch gap between the wood and metal for air circulation. Most of it is covered, but not all. Pictured on the far right is a tarped off area. That is feed storage, as well as straw storage. This area is in the NW corner and not insulated the best and is actually one of the coldest areas of the barn. I tried to put kids in that area last year and those were always the first to get sick. 

Not pictured- beside both of the hay feeders, by the door to the milk area, there are old hog feeder/waterers. Those are where the loose mineral is at. For some reason I didnt get a picture of those. They aren't hooked up to any water or anything but they are great for the goats to nose around in.

Floor is dirt, no cement. 
They get an 18% protein Big Gain feed. We are on a worming regiment, it just isnt working as fast as I'd like. We have done Prohibit, Cydectin, Valzaben, Safeguard, and now trying the Equimax.


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

From the pictures I would suspect too much humidity and dust in the air is contributing to the respiratory problems. 
Almost all of the goats in the pictures look unwell, they are on the thin side and hunched up like they have coccidia or worms causing stomach problems. 
Please look at getting someone in to help you handle them individually, you cant treat the group as a whole.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

toth boer goats said:


> :up:I agree, what kind of shelter?
> 
> What was their temp before you gave Draxxin?
> 
> ...


Temps varied on most of them. Only a couple had higher temps.Vet gave me Zuprevo but it didnt seem to help at all. We did 2 rounds of that, but they kept dying. So we switched to Draxxin 25. Did that one instead of straight Draxxin since I have a lot of smaller goats and it would be easier to dose them. Banamine was only given when they had fevers since I didnt want them to drop temps since it has been so cold outside. 
I have been giving probiotic powder mixed into their pellets, as well as the tube stuff to those who looked skinnier.








This is the last mineral I bought for the goats. Not the best but we are having trouble getting the other stuff I like. We also have a red mineral salt outside in other mineral feeders that they have access to.

Vet honestly said our tapeworm problem was probably the worst he had seen in a while. Sad part is that he said it is the land. We have only been here a year and the previous owners destroyed the land and filled it to the brink with tons of parasites since they honestly believed- "No meds, No problems". They didn't medicate for anything or give vaccines or wormers. They wanted to be totally "organic and green". They had cows and sheep. We found and hauled carcasses for 2 weeks after we moved in. The grass everywhere was down to roots since they had 50+ cows and 70+ sheep on less than 20 acres. Truthfully the sheep were all on less than 1 acre.

And no I'm not dissing the green organic movement, but it comes to a point that I'd rather see live medicated animals than just a field of corpses.

We are on a rotating cycle of wormers and I am doing another fecal this next week. Vet wanted to wait a couple weeks and see how the new stuff is working. Most have been given Equimax already except 10 that I ran out of. Plan to go to the store on Sat for more.

We did the 5 day dose of Corid last week and he said to go the water route until next week when we do the fecal again.

I just feel so stressed from all the problems here and I know it take time for meds to work. It just seems like nothing seems to be working.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Also I'm seeing lots of poultry in the goat area - which contributes to ammonia and contaminated feed and water. I would try to separate the poultry in their own area, and try to follow worming/coccidia suggestions as above. Downsizing, at least until you get a handle on this, would be a strong consideration.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Robinsonfarm said:


> From the pictures I would suspect too much humidity and dust in the air is contributing to the respiratory problems.
> Almost all of the goats in the pictures look unwell, they are on the thin side and hunched up like they have coccidia or worms causing stomach problems.
> Please look at getting someone in to help you handle them individually, you cant treat the group as a whole.


The ones inside still are my sicker ones. They stay inside to eat from the hay feeders I stead of going outside in the wind.

What would be a suggestion for limiting and removing humidity??


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

goatblessings said:


> Also I'm seeing lots of poultry in the goat area - which contributes to ammonia and contaminated feed and water. I would try to separate the poultry in their own area, and try to follow worming/coccidia suggestions as above. Downsizing, at least until you get a handle on this, would be a strong consideration.


Most of the chickens are going to freezer camp in the next 2 weeks. Waiting for the weather to warm a bit so I can do that outside instead of having to butcher them in the shed. Ducks can't get in with the goats, and we have been debating on downsizing since I'm not able to do as much as I used to.


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## Robinsonfarm (Jul 17, 2015)

Mmhyronimus said:


> The ones inside still are my sicker ones. They stay inside to eat from the hay feeders I stead of going outside in the wind.
> 
> What would be a suggestion for limiting and removing humidity??


Ventilation is key, the barn shouldn't be totally sealed up, even at night, they need some air flow. The chickens are notorious for scratching around and kicking up dust which the goats inhale.

The goats that arent in the barn, do they have any shelter?


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I don't know that I believe your veterinarian blaming your parasite issues on the land and the previous owner's methods... parasite eggs & larvae only last so long outside the goat, especially in 10*F weather. I really don't think this is part of the problem. 
What I do see is mineral deficiencies in the goats. You need to get MultiMin90 or sell them. The deficiencies can't be corrected by loose minerals alone and you'll spend way too much if you use Replamin Plus and Copper Bolusing for 70 goats. In my eyes, MultiMin90 is the only option. 

I know you've said before, but I can't find it - are all these goats purchased at one time from the same place? I think we had a discussion about genetics before. The pneumonia is likely doing the job for you, but you may need to consider culling your herd down to a more manageable affordable size. 

Is there an ammonia smell at ground level in the barn?


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

I can only see one of the pictures; hope I am the only one. I would probably not have so much to add to the discussion anyway.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If that area on the top is open to air that is way enough ventilation. 
But if it is the really windy and cold on that side, I would block off a bigger portion of that wind.

If the other side is open at the top that is enough ventilation. 
Now, if it is all closed up, up there, you can open up an area there for ventilation or put in a spinning air thingy up on it.









I would make sure the door draft is gone. Cut off and block off the open area's where the wind blows in. Drafts are not good on goats.

Chickens, ducks, (birds) are not a good thing to have with goats as mentioned. They are really messy and can get goats sick from breathing in the poo and feather dander and dust.

I agree with MultiMin90 after seeing the pics of their condition.
If deficient, Copper helps to fight worms as well.

Insulate the wall which is cold.
That would help a lot. Metal buildings are so cold.

Having the heat lamps off during the day is OK. Keeping one on for any goat who wants to use one, is wise though.

I am not sure I see humidity, unless you see the wall sweating?

As mentioned, does it smell of strong ammonia? If it does, that will make them really sick. The barn needs to be kept clean.

I hope the wormer will work for them this time.
Glad you treated individually with corid.

Hopefully, the fecal will show improvement or the worms are gone.

Another concern, I do not see winter coats on them. They are burning off what they eat, just trying to stay warm. 
You may have to put coats on them to help them out. 
If they had alfalfa hay, it would really help.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

Most have winter coats. It's just a couple that do not and those are my skinnier does. 

There is no ammonia smell. We clean the barn multiple times a year- but during the winter we keep it deep for additional warmth. I put barn lime down before I put any new layers of wood shavings and straw. 

I have a fan I run during the day to get the air moving, but I haven't noticed the walls sweating. There is a decent amount of air exchange about 8ft off the ground, and I have tried to keep as much of the drafts out as possible. 

As for genetics- I inherited a chunk of my herd. Most all of the older does are from different lines. We have gotten different bucks to add more genetics. I do have a couple from the original that have inbred genetics- Harpy is one of them. I keep her because she is family. It's the same reason I keep a lot of my older does. Most of the older ones are not commercial does. But my commercial does are all of different genetic stock.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

You've gotten some really good advice here already especially on getting multimin injections. Sprout Mineral mix won't help this...

Because you've gotten such great and pointed input I can only add a couple more things that I think might help that haven't been said...

I think that bringing in things they can get on to get up off the floor would benefit them. Think about picnic tables etc.

Protein tubs. TSC caries all species protein tubs in 2 different sizes and they are an economical way to provide protein and energy. You'll need enough of them that several goats can eat at the same time. You don't want your weaker goats getting harmed in th fighting. Please do consider this option, because I really do think it will help.

Thank you for all your detailed replies and the pictures. This has given us specifics that we can intelligently discuss. And we can give better help both to you and future readers.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Trollmor said:


> I can only see one of the pictures; hope I am the only one. I would probably not have so much to add to the discussion anyway.


And today I can see all your pictures!   I can see, you have lots and lots of work every day. Can this be part of the problem?


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## TCOLVIN (Sep 22, 2014)

Mmhyronimus said:


> I do give a loose mineral. The one I normally order has been back ordered at my local store. And I've been in a continual fight with my vet about getting a bottle of BoSe- he says its not a prescription but the stores all tell me it is, but he won't let me buy 1 from him. Ya- not fun. And my vet is out of the area until Fri. He went to a family gathering out of state. I have been debating copper bolus and I think I am going to find some and start doing those.


BoSe is definitely prescription where I'm from in Georgia. Maybe your vet doesn't understand your description of it. It happens sometime with my vet and my descriptions of what I want.


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## Mmhyronimus (Sep 8, 2017)

I've somewhat moved my current problem rant to my year page. I've more info there.
https://www.thegoatspot.net/index.php?threads/202003/


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