# URGENT goat down.



## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

We are boarding a few of my friends dairy goats over the winter months. When my dad got up (the goats are on his farm) and went to do goat chores in the morning, he noticed one of the dairy does didn't want to stand. She would eat and drink, but not want to stand. He called my friend and she said to give Propylene glycol, and vitamin B. We did that and there was not much difference. So she came out bringing leafy greens, orange juice, and Probios.

The goat is now standing, but very wobbly and weak. Cannot take a step on her own. She is eating, but doesn't drink (we need to syringe her water), and is just not normal. Very weak, and not really out of it, but not good either.

I have been reading on (what my friend thought might be Vitamin B deficiency) and it keeps bringing me back to *Polio or Listeriosis? *I saw the closed topic on the forum, but I am not sure how to distinguish between the two. We do not have any "goat savvy" vets in this area. The most the vets know is that they can be treated almost like Cattle. Anyway that is not the point...Are there any for sure ways to tell between the two or tips on what I can do to help her. I feel just horrible especially because it is not my goat. Can I treat for both *Polio or Listeriosis* at the same time? (just incase?)

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks


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## ryder225912 (Dec 25, 2013)

When the vet suspected Listeriosis in our doe that was off balance and unwell, we treated for both Listeriosis (Penicillin) and Polio (Thiamine). I do believe it is commonly accepted to treat for both since symptoms are so similar. Good luck with your doe.


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

what's her temperature? how's her poop/pee? have you wormed her recently? if so, with what?

propylene glycol is for pregnancy toxaemia.

you can read up on goat polio/listeriosis here http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html

polio and listeriosis is usually treated together b/c the symptoms are so similar.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Yes you can treat both at once but I wonder if that is even the issue here. 
Is the doe bred? Is so how far along?
Are all legs or jus the rear weak?


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Not bred, and she just doesn't seem to stand with out trying to lean, and she cannot walk by her self. The first day she didn't stand at all with out help, now she stands, but not strongly. As for a temp, I can find out this evening when I get home. I am at work currently on pins and needles as one goat is due to kid any time, and another is not doing good. I know it is wise to keep the two separated, but how far apart is safe does one think "just in case", or is a pen apart from each other ok?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

i'm not sure about distance, but getting a temp and poop and stuff will be most helpful. do you have all the supplies on hand for treating polio and listeriosis? if not, those are good to grab on the way home.....


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

We have Vitamine B Complex, and Penicillin at home. We also have (because I ordered it last week and will be here today)...

Nutri-drench
Jump start plus gel
Selenium + vit E gel
Vit B complex gel
Vit ADE & B12 gel

Any of these useful


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would pen the weak dow up just in case...I would also treat for both Polio and listeriosis...

since you were able to get her up after the vit. B I would assume Polio....but is always good to treat for both just in case..

another thought coul dbe Menigeal Worm from white tail deer


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Seleium Vit e wont hurt...
nutra drench gives a nice boost

B gels are not th best for goats, they need it injected to work its best...She will need either straight Thimaine or fortified B comple with at least 500 mg thiamine in it..

If you read the link Nchen7 gave it will have the dose of the B and Pen

Best wishes


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Does it matter if she has not been outside lately due to the super cold weather conditions, or is it something she could have gotten awhile ago and is just now showing symptoms? (for the worm that is)


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

here is the best article Ihave read on Menageal worm....: ) it says clinical signs can begina goat can begin in 45-53 days 
http://goatconnection.com/articles/publish/article_126.shtml


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I think if it were me, I'd treat for all three. I'd deworm, and do thiamine and pen.


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Ok. We have Ivermectic (used for other live stock) 2cc SQ?
Penicillin 7cc 
Vit B Complex ?cc


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

*For polio*: 1 cc 500mg Thiamine or 4 cc per B complex with 500 mg thiamin
*for Listeriosis*, Pen is needed at the dose per pound suggested ont he link
*For MW..* Ivomec is 1 cc per 40# sub Q along with safeguard, 1 cc per 7 # and Banamine or Dex for brain swelling which is good to give with either listeriosis or MW


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

White muscle disease?


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Mw= Meningeal Worm


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

My dad saw the something on white muscle disease. Could it be that? Hmm treatment there is vitamin e and selenium. Can I treat all 3 just in case?


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

4 sorry


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

When was your last sel/e given? Do you do BoSe or the gel? Do you live in a deficient area?


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

We have the gel. As for deficient area, I'm not 100% sure.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

http://tin.er.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/se/usa.html


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Here is what the counts are for our area but (dumb question) how does that effect our goats? For the eat it through grass? Sorry stupid question I know.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

For Listeriosis or Polio treatment the Fortified B which has 100mg thiamine needs to be 1cc per 20#. If thiamine the dose would be adjusted based on the mg thiamine. 
Penicillian 1cc per 10#. Both every 6 hours until goat is up and walking. 

I saw dex suggested as well. Dexamethasone is good for Listeriosis to help the penicillian cross the blood brain barrier and attack the bacteria where it attacks the body at the brain. ***BUT dexamethasone Will make a bred doe abort so use this drug with caution. In a true Listeriosis situation and if you may loose the doe I would do it to save her even at loss of the kids but just be aware what will happen. 

I would do the BoSe if you have it 1cc per 40# or Selenium paste to cover that basis. 

For the possible Menengial worm Ivermectin injectable 1cc per 40# and dont underdose this.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/seleniumdeficiency.html

Here is an excerpt of the article in the link...

Selenium has a very narrow margin of safety. Goats require 0.2 parts per million of selenium, and the toxic level is 3 ppm. Some symptoms of selenium deficiency are identical to those of selenium toxicity. A doe's failure to conceive can be the result of either selenium deficiency or toxicity. Kidney failure, stillbirth, and abortions also may be attributable to either end of this spectrum. By contrast, hair loss in the beard and flank regions and cracks and deformities in horns and hooves may indicate too much selenium in the goat's diet. Over-concentrations of selenium occur in parts of North Dakota, South Dakota, Nevada, Idaho, California, Arizona, New Mexico, and adjacent states. See your local agricultural extension agent for information on concentrations in your area.

Our levels here are 
Selenium	Se (ppm)	0.348	0.328	0.117	2.952

and the vets here would love to BoSe your goats 4 times a year! I would ask locals what they do for selenium...that will give you the biggest clue. 
Sorry i cannot be of more help...but there is soooo much to learning goats, I am still learning


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

This is all extremely helpful!!! I thank everyone who is sending me all of this helpful info!  
When I got home she was more alert than before. She was still very weak and almost seems stiff legged but will tuck her legs under herself if she tips over or if we let her down. Eventually she goes stiff legged. She turns her neck looking for us when we are moving around. She eats, drinks (we added probios to her water), and loves spinach. We had her standing and she took maybe a total of 5 steps and started to tip again. We laid her back down and she started to shake a little. (Not much) 

We gave her penicillin, selenium w/ vit e, and fortified vit b complex. Tonight. Plus the water with probiotics in it, spinach, and some sweet 16 as a pick me up. (They don't get that often)

Praying she gets better!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I would avoid the grain while she's sick, especially if they aren't used to it - don't want to upset the rumen on top of whatever else is going on. Fresh fruits and veggies are much safer, and you can pick some browse as well.


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Ok. I will have to stop at the store and pick up some fruit. (I know not a lot as I do not want to make their stool soft.) She ate spinach last night, and some alfalfa cubes. She also drank the probios, etc...This morning she didn't want to want or drink again for my dad. He did syringes of water, and she would drink, but she would not drink herself.

We are going to build her a little sling type thing between two gates tonight as we can have her standing on her own (with out us needing to be there all the time) so we can work with the other goats, and let her stand for a longer period of time without falling over. Last night she seemed to be doing better than this morning, but we may have a theory...I look and sound a lot like her (human) mom, and she ate good when I was there, but not when my dad took care of her this morning by himself. She also ate good when her mom was there. Maybe she will only eat and drink for females? Do goats get like that? So stubborn that they will not eat for men if they are use to women?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Some goats do better with the one they are closer to. A sling would be good. If she o is struggles to eat you can soak alfalfa pellets until mooshy and drench using a turkey baster..keep hay in front of her at all times, they need that long stem and maybe hshe will nibble on some a bit....
fix her some electrolytes to encourage drinking...


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Is she getting the penicillin and thiamine by chance?


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

She is getting both of those things, and she has hay at all times. She ate a handful of that last night. If I think of it, and my phone battery doesn't cop out on me, I will attempt to video what exactly she does when we get there and see if that helps. I was trying to do so many things yesterday, I failed to get her temp. I should have known better. (I am a bad goat sitter) 

Actually...It very well could be that I forgot because I got hit in the face by one of my goat's horns, and my dad (in an attempt to catch a goat and bring it closer) got hit just on the outside of the ear with the tip of the horn. (he bled for quite a while and now he has another hole in the head) Young flighty boers...what can you do. 

Anyway back to the poor sick Alpine. I will try the alfalfa cube trick tonight. Could she be getting to many vitamins? We gave her a little selenium w/ vitamin E last night. Bad idea?


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I don't think she'd be getting too many, most extras she would just pee out anyway. I think the video may help as we have some super good goat people on here  
So sorry y'all got hit with the horns.....but yeah, flighty goats are tricky to catch...
I would not give her more selenium but it probably did her good to get what you gave! 
Don't forget the temp today, and with everything going on, it's easy for anyone to forget! You are a great goat sitter  You care~you take action~That's what goats need


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

a dose of Selenium Vit e wont hurt..and can be helpful..just do not repeat for 30 days...over dose selenium can be a whole other problem : ) 
She will pee out any B's given her body does not use...


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

ok. That is good to hear that she cannot O.D. on vit B like they can selenium. Does anyone know if this forum can have short video's downloaded to it or if I have to make a youtube account, and upload the link?


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

you tube videos are the only ones I have seen posted.


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

ok. Thanks would video help or not really? I can video her when we get her up, and when we take a step to the side, try to walk, etc. She always seems to lean to her right.


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Is there something besides prescription banamine we could give her incase she has pain or swelling? The roads are getting pretty bad here, and I have never worked with the vet that is 40 min. from us. (He is the only one who even thinks about working with goats around us)


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Aspirin for the pain. Check back in the posts , happybleats mentioned it I believe.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Adult aspirin could help a bit...but wont help with brain swelling. Im sorry if it wasnt mentions earlier...but Dex or Banamine is needed to reduce brain swelling and help carry the meds past the Blood Brain barrier


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Prayers you can get these meds somehow :hug: If you have a vet that could possibly call in a Rx for you to another local small animal vet , may it would be easier to pick up ?


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

I saw the Banamine, and Dex comment, but didn't see one about asprine. Sorry if I missed it. 

I know the vet will want to come out (even though he knows nothing of goats) and smack me with a very large vet bill to tell me there is something wrong with the goat. 

I will have to call and see what I can do.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Im sorry


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

I feel bad for the goat. She is being poked and prodded...what with the vit. b shot, and the penicillin, and now possibly banamine...poor girly


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

She is going to pull through though...I can feel it! ray::mecry:


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

We need to be positive ! Your doing everything you can ((hugs))
Prayers she recovers quickly for you honey


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

It is hard to keep giving shots! But keep in mind without it she would surely die..so you are doing good work...There is a good chance for recovery and a positive thinking always help!!!..I even pray over my sick goats!!


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Thanks!! My friend happens to have banamine. (FEWF!!) She is going to bring me some tomorrow morning when she comes to visit her poor little girl. She has to drive an hour and she has come almost every other day since she got sick. She is a good mommy.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Good news...


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Keep in mind if it's injectable banamine it is ONLY meant to be given IV, and can have serious side effects given IM or Sub Q! Oral is much safer.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I have given injectable Banamine either SQ or IM to alpacas and goats for over 16 years. Not a problem.


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Good to know! I did not know this!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

http://www.thehorse.com/images/content/reactions/reactions.htm

Reactions are seen more often in horses because they're given Banamine frequently for colic, but it can occur in any animal.


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

yikes! those poor horses!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ive used Banamine SUB Q only, nver had a problem either...Its a good idea to have a dose of Benadryl handy when ever giving meds..just in case they have a reaction to it...some animlas react different then others...


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thats scary..Poor horses


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Update. She ate veggies and oj (about1.5 cups) again. Along with alfalfa cure (not watered down), and more hay. She drank probably 120cc probiotic water. We had her up and very slowly had her walking around. She used us as a crutch (to lean on) 5 times in about an hour. When we went to put her back on her bed she didn't want to lay on her side any more. We tried to use bedding to prop up behind her (so she could lay almost like a normal goat) and she must have gotten a wild hair. She got her own rear end up but we had to help the front again. We let her stay standing eating hay. 

She shows progress at night but like she starts over in the morning. We created a sling across 2 gates that we can keep her standing alittle longer with out us being there next to her. She does better standing. She didn't like it last night but I think for mornings it will be ok. 

Her temp was 101.9 last night.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds like she is slowly doing better. Definitely keep her propped up in a proper sitting position. It is bad for the rumen when they are laying on their side.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

youre doing a great job!! mornings might be hard after laying all night..stiff and all....Just give her a good rub down massage to get the blood flowing and see if that helps...


Best wishes


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

Sounds like me in the mornings , lol..


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Her mama came with oj, banamine and muffins. She ate spinach, hay, alfalfa cubes, and drank almost a qt of oj. We took her for a short walk again too. Just before we left we tubed her 1000ml water to be sure she stays hydrated. I had never done that before. It was good to learn. . When we left she was standing and eating more hay with her 1 yr old daughter beside her to keep her company. 

I'm pretty sure my friend started having some tears fall to see her baby like this. It was sad.


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Another update. 

We put a tube in and have her water again tonight. She ate a bunch of hay and some more spinach. We used a pallet to lay against the wall. Then after 2 hours of up and walking we put an old sweatshirt on her to help keep her warm tonight and layed her proped up against the pallet. (So she is laying more like a normal goat) so far it is working out well. Hope she feels better in the morning because she is not laying on her side. Sigh. I hope I am doing right.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds like she is very slowly getting better. Keep up the good work!


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Goat update. Not getting better but not getting worse. Her mama is coming to pick her up so people can keep an eye on her 24/7 and give her round the clock care.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Good. Glad you were able to keep her stable. You will have to let us know how she does.


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## Trickyroo (Sep 26, 2012)

You did a wonderful job taking care of her  
Prayers she does well and recovers completely. 
Glad she is going home to be with her momma .
Please let us know how she is doing


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

I will post updates as I get them. To keep her calm and quiet we set this "tent" up in my friends milk house. She has a heater in the milk house and a heat lamp for the over night chills. She will have care 95% of the day. I hope she gets better so she can come back to join her goaty family. I will not be able to sleep well knowing she is still ill and I cannot see her.  she is 1 hour away. Sigh.


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Oh yes. And we cannot forget the nice dog pillow to lay on as well.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Hope she improves :hug: Nice job keeping her going!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

You did a great job with her!! You acted fast and that most likely saved er life!! Now she can spend time recovering and growing stronger...Sounds like she is in good hands!! 

Best wishes


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Keep in mind if it's injectable banamine it is ONLY meant to be given IV, and can have serious side effects given IM or Sub Q! Oral is much safer.


I wouldn't give it to a horse IM, but giving an IV injection to a horse is easier than a goat. At least for me it is. I fear the above advise could stop a valuable medication from being given to an animal that truly needs it. I have given banamine to goats IM many times with no bad reactions. Nothing will drop a dangerously high temperature faster than banamine. I've given banamine to goats that were having a reaction to vaccine or iron shots that went from humped up and miserable to fine and eating hay in less than 30 minutes. It can make a goat that feels like crap feel much better. It is said to be hard on internal organs so shouldn't be used willy nilly or for long, but it can save a goats life. That is worth any hypothetical risk of using it IM to me. It says for intramuscular use right on the bottle. It says for IV only on cattle, but I bet that has more to do with slaughter rules than safety.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I'd give it orally before IM. I saved my horse from a dangerously high fever last year with just oral Banamine and cold hosing (we didn't have any injectable even if I'd wanted to do IV.) I have yet to do any IV injections but a friend recently showed me how to draw blood, so I'm sure I could if I needed to. And if time is of the essence IV will take effect much faster than IM.


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Goaty update. She did a lot of walking today. She went outside, and finally drank straight water out of a bucket. (First time in 3 days she didn't have to be tubed) 

I think she was very much homesick! Looking better this far. Thank you everyone for your help and support!


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## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Yay. Glad to hear she is doing better

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Goat Forum mobile app


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Thats is amazing news!! Keep up the good work


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## loggyacreslivestock (Mar 5, 2013)

Great job being diligent!


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

One last update (hopefully) 

The goat is doing 80% better. She is eating and drinking, walking (still wobbly but walking none the less), wanting to go outside, and trying to pick fights with siblings. She is definitely a mama's girly. . Thanks again for the help, and encouragement.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds like she should make a full recovery!


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Update on Aki the goat...She is still down, and tipsy. Not much recovery since the last posting. She did lay herself down the one night, so she was sitting up right, but when her mom went out to the barn the next morning, she was on her side again. It is not like she is giving up, or getting better. She is pretty much staying consistent. She eats, and drinks, sometimes she gets all stubborn and needs to have water forced down her, but then she gives in and drinks on her own. Ever heard of an over pampered goat syndrome who just wants more attention than 6 times a day for about 1 hour each time?

Spoiled.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes...when my buck Dozer was recovering from polio, I was hand feeding him hay rolled in littl ebals..stuffing them in his mouth...he eagerly allowed me to spend 30-40 minutes severel times a day to feed him..then I saw the little stinker eatin gon his own a few minutes after I walked away lol.dont know how long he was eating on his own lol..They can grow spoiled to the pampering. Sounds like she may have ups and downs...What if any medication is she on?


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

She gets Vitamin B, and probios right now. That is about all. She LOVES molasses, so she likes to lick some of that. I should tell her to try the warm water and molasses "tea". 

The goat seems very content right now that is for sure. I know her mom is quite sad because she had to take Aki's (the down goat's) mom in for an emergency C-section, and she lost the mom, and both kids. It is very sad!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh that is sad..Im sorry. Hopefully Aki continues to show improvment..but at this point she may be as good as she will get...maybe with a few ups and downs...the b complex is good....The biggest concern I would have is if she falls and cant get up...bloat will set in and kill her if left too long...Keeping an eye on her can be hard 24/7. 
here is a great story to encourage you
http://goat-link.com/GoatladysGoats/BabyGirl/


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## agilitymaster01 (Sep 25, 2013)

She has 4 people looking after her pretty much at all hours of the day because each one works an odd work schedule. One works 6am to 6pm, another 5pm to ?? another 2 to 10, and another 3 to ?? She has people all over all the time.  She is up I think almost more than she is down.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

thats great news...she is great hands then...: )


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