# Breeding Age/Weight Poll



## COgoatLover25 (Dec 23, 2013)

The title says it, I'm curious to see when everyone breeds, if you breed by weight/size, please explain below on how you know when they are big enough to breed.
Thanks!


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

I am also very curious to now what other breeders do! Please leave a comment if you have time to explain


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

I breed my doelings at 9-10 months old, with dairy goats anyways. I feel like it's at a good point where they've adequately matured both physically and mentally, but they're young enough to have good udder development and are productive as early as safely possible. 

By 9 months old a doe should weigh at least 75-80lbs, and 80lbs is the weight I shoot for. Of course a doe that isn't mature enough will not be bred until 11-12 months old.


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

What a great answer! What breeds do you have?


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Sadly I had to sell my goats this November, but they were nubian and lamancha mixes. Over three years I had four doelings, I bred them all at about 9 months and they all did great so that's what I prefer. Other breeders (especially pygmy and Boer owners) prefer to wait until they're a year old, if not older. 

Each doeling matures at a different rate, so you have to decide on a goat-to-goat basis. But if she's well grown and ready for breeding, I will have the deed done...just remember that the earlier your doe is bred the more nutrition and care she'll need to grow along with her kids..and there's always a risk of kidding issues with ffs regardless of age..


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

I breed pygmies, and it generally depends on the doe. If she is physically and mentally mature enough, I will breed at 12-13 months. This is also taking into consideration her lines, and whether they are 'easy' kidders or not. If she ISN'T mature enough, or her lines aren't as nice, then I wait until she's more mature and can handle potential stress. (Sometimes they never do.) The biggest concern I have with yearling fresheners is they aren't mature enough mentally, and will reject their kids. For some, it takes years to mature. 

Sometimes I will breed them younger so they show in the senior division early (freshened yearling class), especially if they already won a junior grand champion.


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## margaret (Aug 30, 2013)

I'd like to breed my kids at 7-8 months but none of mine have been big enough.
I'll breed them on purpose if they are 80 lbs.
Haven't fed milk long enough and not enough milk either so they haven't been 80 lbs by the time I wanted to breed them.
I had a buck that jumped the fence a couple of times and bred some doe kids before I wanted them bred and they turned out fine, but this year I hope to breed most of the kids I keep at 7 months.


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

This year is our first to breed, and since our mini Nubian doelings are F2s and we don't know how big they'll end up (they're almost 10 months and 60 lbs right now, but they had two bouts of cocci when they were younger), we decided to wait until next fall with them. We're hoping to have more/better options for bucks to breed them to next fall, so that played a role in our decision as well.


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## dreamacresfarm2 (May 10, 2014)

I like mine to be at least a year old and close to 100#


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## RaineyDayFarms (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm waiting until they are over 1 year, likely around 1 1/2 as long as they are over 40#. Especially since the minis are taking a while to mature. They are all still a bit under 40 pounds at 9 months.
The boers will be over 80-100 pounds and over 1yr. 
From all I have read its better to go by weight. Which makes good sense. I plan on waiting until they are mature enough and big enough that I think they can handle it.


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## GoateeFarms50 (Mar 20, 2013)

I bred three does in fall 2012 at 8-9 months old. They were all at least 80-100lbs. They grew good udders, and all gave each one doeling as FF's. Now the smallest one of the three, Ivy, is 115lbs, and the biggest is Buttercup at 150lbs! By the way, they are all Alpine/Saanen mixes. Also, their daughters, Delilah, Willow and Iris, I bred at 7-8 months old. Looking back, I wish I would have waited until they were older and bigger. But they have grown, and delivered babies fine (except for Iris, who had a breech birth, and Willow had a hard time, but was okay in the end). Now Willow is 110 pounds, Iris is 120 pounds, and Delilah is 125 pounds. I will be breeding spring 2014 babies possibly... if they grow to a nice size by this fall. At that time, they will be 15-19 months old, if I do decide to breed.

But, from now on, I've decided to wait until my does are at least 100lbs, and at a bigger size. I've learned from my mistakes of breeding too early.


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I was cautioned not to breed my Munchies until they hit 80 pounds. The gal I got as a bottle baby didn't quite make that weight by her first Fall, but she's over 100pounds this year and is bred. My other Munchie is a conundrum. She's a full-sized shrimp. She'll be 3 in March, but probably only weighs 75-80 pounds now. (I've never weighed her, but she's only a little bigger than my Nigerian. My Nigey is on the larger side of acceptable for her breed) We bred her this year anyway. She's not widening out very fast at all, so hopefully her size won't be an issue...


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

I aim to breed my ff does at 9-10 months, by which time they should be well over 100 lbs. Mine are Alpines, and never seem to have problems reaching this weight by that age. However, if the does were born later in the year to where they will not be old enough and large enough by December, I hold them over to breed the next year.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

In the past I've only bred them as late yearlings, but this year I invested in a bunch of young stock so bred them at 8-10 months in order to prove them out (and make my cuts after kidding.) I think the smallest was 70 lb, I've got one runt who's being held over. We'll see how it goes - if there's too much trouble with the FF I won't breed that young again, they've always been fine at 2.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Although the minimum weight is 80 lbs. here we just dont have the need or want to make them start working so early. For at least the first 2 years they are putting so much into growing themselves, just dont think its good to add growing babies to that as well. This might add to the overall size of our animals. We breed them at 2 years of age. We could breed them earlier but not going to extend our chore time table. We start to kid in mid to late February and finish up in May. If a doe doesnt get breed to kid during this time, then she doesnt get bred.

Another big reason for this is we dont put the previous years doelings in with the adult does until we ween the kids from the current year. This makes them roughly 16 months of age and for the most part, big enough to compete and defend themselves from the older does. Which is another reason why we dont breed our yearlings. They are in a pen not attached to the milking parlor and we would have to walk over to their pen, grab one and bring her to the parlor. No thanks.


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## Goat_in_Himmel (Jun 24, 2013)

I chose the 7-8 months option, not that I do that exclusively, but because it implies "as early as", which I think is what the OP is trying to flush out. I have NDs, and am looking at 35-40 pounds, but this could be closer to 9 or 10 months. So far, no issues. I will (knock on wood) have kids born late in the season this year, who almost certainly won't reach that weight until it's too late to breed before winter, so I can experiment to see if waiting until they're 14 months old is better.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

We like to wait until AT LEAST 18 months of age. Especially if they are show does. I don't like to breed my show girls...I usually wait until 24 months for them. I also take into consideration what Janecb said.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Can someone explain to me WHY exactly pygmy goats are bred later? Does it have to do with their conformation or size?


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

canyontrailgoats said:


> Can someone explain to me WHY exactly pygmy goats are bred later? Does it have to do with their conformation or size?


I feel like I remember it having something to do with the kids having large heads, and therefore being harder to deliver. Pygmy breeders, do I have that right?


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

canyontrailgoats said:


> Can someone explain to me WHY exactly pygmy goats are bred later? Does it have to do with their conformation or size?


It's easier on them. Plus pygmies grow pretty slow... They are not fully mature until 24 months of age. Pygmies usually (not always) need assistance when kidding. It's better to be safe than sorry. It is really dangerous to breed them too young especially if they don't come from good kidding lines. Many would probably need c-sections. We have luckily not had to have c-sections yet but we are very careful how much we feed our Pregos so the babies don't get too big. We also are trying to keep only good kidding lines in our herd. I also don't like to breed show does too much because it puts a lot of stress on their stifles,elbows and topline. I have brood does that come from nice lines that I breed more often. They are considered brood does because they either have stifles or elbows out which means they would not place well in the ring.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

TDG-Farms said:


> Although the minimum weight is 80 lbs. here we just dont have the need or want to make them start working so early. For at least the first 2 years they are putting so much into growing themselves, just dont think its good to add growing babies to that as well. This might add to the overall size of our animals. We breed them at 2 years of age. We could breed them earlier but not going to extend our chore time table. We start to kid in mid to late February and finish up in May. If a doe doesnt get breed to kid during this time, then she doesnt get bred.


Now I am really curious. How tall are your girls on average? I have noticed a large range in height in my herd, seemingly depending more on the genetics than management. Also, do you find that the larger girls are more or less efficient in terms of feed and milk production.

Sorry to be nosy, I just want to pick your brain.


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## bbpygmy (Apr 14, 2014)

Janecb maybe you have a better explanation??


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

What you said makes sense bbpygmy, I think I read somewhere that pygmys mature slowly..and farmerinadress your explanation also sounds on point. I know angoras also mature slow, so they should be bred at a later time.


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## FarmerInaDress (Mar 15, 2013)

bbpygmy said:


> It's easier on them. Plus pygmies grow pretty slow... They are not fully mature until 24 months of age. Pygmies usually (not always) need assistance when kidding. It's better to be safe than sorry. It is really dangerous to breed them too young especially if they don't come from good kidding lines. Many would probably need c-sections. We have luckily not had to have c-sections yet but we are very careful how much we feed our Pregos so the babies don't get too big. We also are trying to keep only good kidding lines in our herd. I also don't like to breed show does too much because it puts a lot of stress on their stifles,elbows and topline. I have brood does that come from nice lines that I breed more often. They are considered brood does because they either have stifles or elbows out which means they would not place well in the ring.


Thank you, that is all very informative. I feel like more than boers or pygmys, dairy does are self-selective for easy kiddings, just because for the goat to be productive she has to be able to kid and therefore produce milk. I am trying to take it easier on my Alpine girls by milking them through instead of rebreeding if possible. I find that the most dangerous time for does is when they kid, regardless of breed.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Genetics give you the potential but management brings that potential to life. We just happen to follow a management that works to bring the size outta our animals. Not all of our animals are big but most are. That might be more to culling over the years then anything. The larger animals are more likely to have their buck kids kept for the prospect program. I have a very nice big doe out there that had mastitis in one half so her udder is terrible. She has never produced a good doe kid worth keeping. But her buck kids are phenomenal and her conformation is outstanding. So she gets to stay as I try different breeding combinations. 

As for size and feed vs. milk. We kid that it would be nice to have smaller does that didnt eat so much but in reality, the size difference isnt enough to matter.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I've seen a lot of dairy does that are lost through kidding complications. Now, pasture based meat herds will self-select because there's no one there to assist - if the doe can't put kids on the ground alone, she self culls.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Meat breeds and pygmys are thicker in nature, and usually chunkier than dairy breeds which could make pregnancy harder on them. Not that this has anything to do with breeding age, but that may be a theory for kidding issues...

On the flip side, dairy does are usually more delicate and refined, making kidding complicated. Honestly I don't know where I'm going with this, just thinking out loud


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

I was one of the people on here who voted 7-8 months. I have a breeder friend who breeds at the same age, and we don't have any problems with growth. Here is the doe I bought from them, she is pictured as a yearling. 
My kids wean at 80-90lbs at 3 months old, from my bigger does, so they are plenty big enough by October-November to breed them. Weaning weights are a bit less from my smaller line.


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

Beautiful! Very well filled out for a yearling!


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## janecb (Sep 23, 2014)

canyontrailgoats said:


> Can someone explain to me WHY exactly pygmy goats are bred later? Does it have to do with their conformation or size?


Sorry for not catching sight of this earlier to those curious... bbpygmy explained it pretty well.

They do have large heads when born, and (fairly often) large shoulders, which is why the desired birth presentation is a nose and ONE foot, as it slims the shoulders enough for them to get out. _The kidding issues can be related to a dog like a pug or bulldog..._ the breed has been changed so much from what it originally was that they aren't made to survive in the wild without human intervention. A common problem is the birth canal is too narrow and too steep, as from the outside the latter looks more visually appealing on a doe. This, in addition to the fact that pygmies are often more liable to put on weight quickly, can cause the kids to become malpositioned en utero, which leads to kidding problems. Genetics play a huge role in determining what age a doe 'should' be bred at. *Kidding can often be just as dangerous for a fully grown and mature doe as for a juvenile.*

For a long time, the desired pygmy was NOT made for ease of kidding. They had large, blocky heads, and a smaller, shorter frame. The breed standard (then and now) specified they be 'genetically small, cobby, and compact.' This led to an overly-shortened body, and broadening of the head, causing kidding problems. ALTHOUGH, many of the older styled does did and still do kid successfully without problems. Luckily, the judges are now starting to encourage a longer body style with more ease of kidding, in the better interest of the breed.

ALTHOUGH, with this in mind, many of the older styled does did and still do kid successfully without problems. Many breeders are combining the longer body with the more traditional style with success in the show ring and while kidding. It is just in my general experience that over time, the 'traditional bodies' have more problems either kidding or stemming from kidding.

The first doe is the older body style. You can see her head is much larger and she has thicker shoulders. While technically 'cuter', she has had a hard time kidding and has required assistance each time. Her kids often inherit her larger, blockier head, which, in addition to her smaller pelvis, is a bad combination. Her stifles have been slightly pushed out from kidding multiple times.








The next doe is a newer body style, developed from the same lines as the first. She has a longer body, more width in the escutcheon (hard/impossible to see in this picture), narrower shoulders, and a more upright carriage in her front. She has more correct carriage of the stifles as well (tighter to the body), while retaining the traditional depth associated with pygmies. This doe has never required assistance kidding. 









This is the junior doe I bred, a week or so before breeding, at a year. She is closer in style to the second doe; however, she has a more correct rear, with more width in the escutcheon and a more gradual slope to the rump. This also gives her a wider pelvis, more appropriate length and width of birth canal, and more structurally sound hips. She'd reached her full height, and just needed to fill out more in the barrel (which she has). 









Also, much of the same holds true for bucks in relation to the development of the breed. The buck contributes an equal amount of genetics to the offspring, so it's important that he, to, be structurally integral and sound.

Sorry for that being much longer than intended... I spend too much time around judges :lol:


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Thank you for the very detailed answer! I'm sure this info will help many pygmy breeders


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## SugarBush Farms (Apr 19, 2012)

Little-Bits-N-Pieces said:


> I was one of the people on here who voted 7-8 months. I have a breeder friend who breeds at the same age, and we don't have any problems with growth. Here is the doe I bought from them, she is pictured as a yearling.
> My kids wean at 80-90lbs at 3 months old, from my bigger does, so they are plenty big enough by October-November to breed them. Weaning weights are a bit less from my smaller line.


80-90 pounds at 3 MONTHS?? 
I have to ask- how do you feed/manage kids and does? My biggest was 70 lbs at 5 months and he was a 75% Lamancha 25% Alpine.

I breed at 75-80lbs generally if they fall at that weight during my breeding season and generally 8-12 months though this year I am keeping a baby over until 2 years to kid (she got hit hard with coccidia and isn't big enough to breed)


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## lottsagoats1 (Apr 12, 2014)

I breed by weight, size and age. I want the does to be 3/4's their projected adult size in both height and weight. Almost all of my doelings reach that point between 8-10 months. Nowadays I prefer to wait until January to breed so they kid as a group in the summer, after the other kids are weaned.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I dont wanna argue but thats not possible to have 80-90 lbs kids at 3 months.


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## Little-Bits-N-Pieces (Apr 7, 2013)

My does are generally 180lbs, my 2 month old kids weigh 60lbs on average. Last year the quad bucks I had were 73-75lbs by 2 1/2 months. It is possible to have 80-90lb weaning weights.
They have a creep feed area, all the milk they could want, alfalfa, minerals and water. Coccidia treated every 19-21 days, and regular wormings.


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

My triplets Boer wethers were weaned at 4 months weighing 85lbs a piece, and that's without supplemental milk or creep feeding.


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## SugarBush Farms (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm trying to increase my growth rate in kids is why I asked. Even if I don't have the lines in my herd to be 80lbs by weaning - I'd like them that big or bigger by 7-8 months. We've reevaluated our feed, minerals, supplements, and total feeding program. I'm hoping for quicker growth this year


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

I breed them to kid in the best possible time for feed and climate, slightly later then normal so that there is plenty of grass to support them. Here my magic formula is "September", but thats southern hemisphere.

Because of seasonal kidding, usually this comes up around the time they are a year old. I won't breed when they are less than 10 months, and I like to get them bred before they're 14 months. If their body condition is not enough I am flexible on that, the priority is to get them in 90% of projected mature size, healthy and carrying good condition.


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

We have boer & percentage boer, and it just depends on the doe. We raise a small backyard herd & my kids show their own babies in 4-H.
Typically if the kids aren't going to show them again, we'll breed at 8mo/100lbs. Never had any issues with breeding them at that age.


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## sandhillfarm (Feb 25, 2013)

My girls are 11 months and they're with a buck now. Just waiting for them to settle  Heres pic from today


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

ND - breed when they are 35lbs or more and are at least 65% of their full grown weight and size. 

I have to know their lines fairly well to know what their full grown approx weight will be. But its an experiment this year to see how these girls turn out. If I like the outcome I will continue to breed this way


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

We need more votes to break the tie!


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

My Nigerian had an accidental breeding just before I got her, but she was 12 months old and full sized. She had no difficulties. We got our LaMancha kid from a breeder who insisted we wait until her second season to breed her. I really would have liked to have bred her that first year, but she was just shy of 80 pounds in the Fall, so we went with the breeder's advice and waited. All my kids this year are April babies and are bottle fed. If they reach a decent weight by October (80+pounds for the Lamancha and 45 pounds for the Nigerians), I plan to breed them, but if they aren't big enough (Likely with such late birthdates) we'll hold them over.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

StaceyRosado said:


> ND - breed when they are 35lbs or more and are at least 65% of their full grown weight and size.
> 
> I have to know their lines fairly well to know what their full grown approx weight will be. But its an experiment this year to see how these girls turn out. If I like the outcome I will continue to breed this way


Glad this came back up. I won't breed that young again. Lost kids with one doe and I lost another doe after a Csection. Could have been fluke things. Both does were nice size and healthy. But I just don't want to chance it again. 
T


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

How young were they bred Stacey?


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## WitchHazel (May 5, 2015)

Does anyone have any advice on when to breed a mini-nubian doeling for the first time? Does the 80-100 lbs rule still hold with minis? She'll be a yearling this Thanksgiving. She seems pretty slim still, not a lot of width/depth yet, but I don't know much about conformation. I'll try to attach pictures. She's the little pink one.


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## WitchHazel (May 5, 2015)

And another.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You will have to assess her in October. She looks way to small now.


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## WitchHazel (May 5, 2015)

ksalvagno said:


> You will have to assess her in October. She looks way to small now.


That's kind of what I thought; I just wanted a second opinion.


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

I agree, she looks very little. Get her on some good feed and see how she is in October.


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## WitchHazel (May 5, 2015)

HappyCaliGoats said:


> I agree, she looks very little. Get her on some good feed and see how she is in October.


She gets grain, alfalfa pellets, alfalfa hay, grass hay and blackberry browse regularly. Is that a good mix?


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

Sounds pretty good  how much is she getting? My breeding or milking girls are always on free choice alfalfa. Has she been dewormed or had a fecal run recently?


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## WitchHazel (May 5, 2015)

HappyCaliGoats said:


> Sounds pretty good  how much is she getting? My breeding or milking girls are always on free choice alfalfa. Has she been dewormed or had a fecal run recently?


We treated her and our wether for cocci at 3 months, and we dewormed them all when we got a third doe.

I'm not really certain how much of anything she's getting. I give them a flake of alfalfa in the morning, refill/replace the grass hay when needed, and sometimes sit for an hour or so while they eat the blackberry outside their pen. Not often, though, because our rescued doe has an obnoxious habit of running to the house after about ten minutes, taking the little ones with her.

I also give them about 2 cups of sweet feed, 2 of non-sweet, and 2 of alfalfa pellets mixed together in one pan. This goes between the three of them. I know wethers don't need grain, but our pen set-up is such that there's no way to separate them.

In the evening, someone (usually my mom) takes them out to eat blackberry for 1 1/2 hours or so. And at night, they get more alfalfa and grass hay to snack on. They also get loose minerals and baking soda. We're going to get a fence feeder for those, but for now they're just out of a dish.

Sorry it's a bit long, but I wanted to be thorough. So how am I doing? I know I really should be more precise about rations, but with only three goats, and no way to separate them, it seems like wrestling them all just for the sake of precision is a bit much. My girl has a nice body conditioning score, and she's filling out nicely-- the second picture is a bit older.


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

Her condition looks good in the first pic, but it is harder to tell how big she is from that angle. Second pic she does look small


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

How much does she weigh and what generation is she? Minis shouldn't generally be over 100 lbs as adults (unless you have one like my F1 who is basically a full-sized Nubian with shorter legs), so the 80-100 lbs thing doesn't apply to them. I think she looks like she'd be on track for a fall breeding, but it's hard to tell just from photos.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You need to find a way to feed her separately. She probably isn't getting enough. The second picture looks like she could use some copper too. You may also want to have a fecal done to include coccidia.


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

Sorry, I just saw the second photo. She does look a bit small there. Is she 7 months now? A weight would help.


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## WitchHazel (May 5, 2015)

The second picture was taken just before we bolused them. The picture below was taken yesterday, when we weighed her. I can't remember her exact weight now (I should have written it down... Grrr...) but it was somewhere in the region of 40lbs.

Maybe I'll try giving her some grain and stuff while we milk our other doe in the afternoons. Our wether Leo will be mad, but at least he won't be in the way! He and she are 6 months old.


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## HappyCaliGoats (Mar 19, 2014)

Her condition is good for a dry doe. Good idea to separate her and grain her separately for a bit to get her in condition for breeding. I personally like my girls to have a little extra weight in them going into breeding because they will lose it


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

Our F2 yearlings (April babies from last year) weigh about 75-80 pounds right now (and are on a no-grain diet as they were getting a bit chunky). If I remember correctly, they were about 50 lbs at 7 months, so your girl isn't far off. I'd keep an eye on her weight and trying feeding her when you milk the others.


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## WitchHazel (May 5, 2015)

Her mother was an F1 or 2 Mini-Nubian, and her father was a Nigerian Dwarf, so I guess that makes her an F1, technically.


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

Okay, so she's an F1, but 75%(ish) ND , so she'll likely be on the smaller side as an adult.


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

I would be careful when choosing the buck to breed her to, especially as a FF. If you have one who's smaller, you might want to use him.


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## WitchHazel (May 5, 2015)

We've been looking into Mini-Nubian bucks in our area, and there are a few options who are not too big. We'll probably wait and see how big she is by breeding time, and then decide on a buck. Oh, and she was six months old on the 25th.

Out of curiosity, is there a way to register her and/or her kids without her mother's papers? The friends we got her from might have papers, but they are in the process of moving right now, and can't find anything.


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## ariella42 (May 22, 2014)

You could probably register her as NOA (native on appearance) with one of the registries. I'm not terribly familiar with the mini registries though.


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