# aggressive Buck? adding a Wether?



## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

Hello ya'll,

so we brought home our buck (our only and first goat!)

He is a 3 year old Angora Buck and has been kept by himself for the last 2 years.
We brought him home 3 days ago and we have lots of problems with him.
At this point I try not to handle him since he seems very aggressive towards us, he charges at us, makes this weird noise, blowing air out of his nose and sticks his tounge out a little, then he charges.... since he's our first goat we are just not sure on what all that means and what we are supposed to do.

We know that goats should not be kept by themselves, but I'm just worried that if we add a wether he will beat him up, thinking he's competition.

We can get our hands on a Angora Wether, which was born this year and will be wethered soon. Before I pick him up I just want to make sure that this is a good decision!

Thank you


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

also, when he is tethered to a tree and we come close, he almost immediately starts rubbing his horns ferociously and bucking at the tree. What does this behavior mean? What should we do?


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Wow you are either very brave or the seller wasnt very informative; taking on a buck as your first.
First of all he is in rut & in new surroundings taking his frusteration out on the tree. 
Assuming he is horned Do not ever ever handle those horns or head. He will interpret that as a challenge.
Some use the squirt bottle method to deter him. You might have to take him down & sort of sit on him a number of times.
If you intend to keep him you have your work cut out for you. Not all bucks are like this. Dont let him spoil it.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I agree, not all bucks are like this, I have met lovely ones as well. Personality can be passed down -- personally I would neuter him, it should help calm him and he won't pass down his "emotional issues" :laugh:

For now, here are some hints. Use a squirt bottle to deter him, or grab his ear harshly. These actions are unacceptable, especially in a horned buck. You may need to tip him over and sit on him. Someone else on here said that she has hit the horns with a stick before since they hate their horns being touched.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

On second thought & I hope you dont take offense. At the risk of sounding harsh, as a first time owner you really need to consider not owning one at this time, especially since he sounds like the typical stereo type mean tempered animal he is; through no fault of his own.
You or a family member can be seriously harmed if you dont have experience with handling bucks.


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

the seller claimed him to be very docile.... 

I don't take offense, but we have him now and the seller moved so we can't give him back. 

I agree that it's not his fault, I don't think he should have been kept by himself for this whole time, I think he might be very lonely. 
We would like to make things work out. We will try the squirt bottle idea. 

For now we have a stall for him for the night and we are taking him out, tethering him on a nearby tree with a 50' tie out, so he can get back in the stall but also is able to graze. We are planning on fencing the area in front of his stall, just so we don't have to handle him on a regular / daily basis.

How do you guys feel about the idea of adding a wether?


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

also, with the squirt bottle idea, where do we aim to when squirting??

We are entertaining the idea to make him a wether more and more. Do you really think this will make a difference with a 3 year old buck? 
No matter how frustrated I am right now with him, we claim ourselves to be very responsible animal owners and want him to have a good live and I really WANT to like him, but he's not making it easy right now....
I went out a little bit ago and fed him some baby carrots that he really seems to like... I'm just trying to bond with him.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

MollyDora said:


> also, with the squirt bottle idea, where do we aim to when squirting??
> 
> We are entertaining the idea to make him a wether more and more. Do you really think this will make a difference with a 3 year old buck?
> No matter how frustrated I am right now with him, we claim ourselves to be very responsible animal owners and want him to have a good live and I really WANT to like him, but he's not making it easy right now....
> I went out a little bit ago and fed him some baby carrots that he really seems to like... I'm just trying to bond with him.


Squirt the face. The water won't damage his eyes.

I would say yes on the wether, but I'd be afraid of endangering it if he proves to be hostile towards other goats after all this time. Is there a way you can pen them next to each other and see how they introduce to each other?

You sound like a wonderful owner. I can't imagine how tough it is as a first experience. You may even want to consider buying two young wethers ... that way the wethers can stick up for each other an not be bullied, but will still keep the buck company. I would strongly suggest having the buck neutered at this point.


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

yes, we actually have a stall on either side of Little Moon's stall, we can fix up either one. so they can be separated, but still enjoy (let's hope) each others company.

So I'd say our plan looks as follows:

get Little Moon neutered!
finish his fence, so he can roam and does not have to be bothered every single day
fix one of the stalls next to him, and get the wether.

as I said, we have a breeder here in MO (Indian Springs Farm), they have a buckling that only had one testicle, so they will make him wether (this is going to happen either today or next week), then they said the want to keep him there for at least 4 days before we bring him home.
they will also keep him longer if we need more time with the stall.

gosh I really hope we can get all this figured out. 

Thank you for your reply, you've been very helpful


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Take the time when looking for the wether, go for a super duper friendly one so you can enjoy him!! If you can even meet him beforehand that's ideal.

You're very welcome :hug:


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

The suggestion of two wethers for him is a great idea!!

He may well have been docile before. But this is new territory for him.
When I see a buck pawing and/or lowering his head or throwing it around; even the slightest sign of either means trouble.
Get that squirt bottle out & aim for the face, with a firm "Get Back" or NO.
We had a young buck who would come unglue if my husband came in, as I was always the one who fed & watered.
He thought I was his woman. He would posture & show off his goodies, then get between hubby & I, ready to fend off the intruder.
He also tried to show me he was boss. This too was unacceptable. 
By then he was a good 200lb & we resorted to carrying a hot shot for our own protection.
After the strong "Get Back!" If he continued walking toward one of us he would walk into the hot shot at chest level. This was a passive tool, used only if he was still coming.
It only took about three incidents. It was a last resort.
But he learned what Get Back meant.


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## Hobbyfarmer (Sep 7, 2011)

Just want to pipe up for a second about the uniballer wether. I know in dogs the second testical must be removed when neutered. If this isn't done they can still breed . And it produces testosterone. Which means they still act intact. Hopefully someone can say if this is also true in goats. The technical term for an undistended testical is cryptorchid.


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## SDBoerGoats (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree about the buckling with only one testicle down, in horses if they only have one down you have to have surgery to go up inside because they will be proud cut, and their attitude is worse than a stallion if its left up inside. I dont think Id go for a one testicled bucking, or you might have another mean, nasty ggoat who THINKS hes a buck. 
I'd definately get your buck castrated. We have bucks because we breed, Remington was a puppy dog until he went into rut, then he was trying to ram the barn down, challenging people, etc. Had to use a hotshot on him. Plus bucks STINK bad. Ours are registered breeders or believe me, I would ot have a buck.
Also agree about him having goat company, but on the other side of the fence at first, and yes maybe get 2 wethers, because he is not going to like the new goat and they most likely like him, he is much older. I"d get a pair to pal up.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh, and I can add that at 3 years old, if you do get him wethered, it takes about 2 months and he will be a wether. The bucks I used and had castrated later in age are mellower then the wethers that were done early. They now look at the bucks and are really glad they don't have to do all that stuff.


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

ok. WOW, thanks for all the information.

We will contact the breeder for the buckling and ask them how all that works, if they will get the other testicle and if not, that we probably won't take him. 

thanks for the info on that he will get mellower, THAT is good news!! 

We will try to get two wethers, however, we do have a few problems with that.

first: two wethers cost twice as much as one....I'm not so worried about the feeding, but the actual cost to get one, the Angoras are so expensive!
second: It's really hard to find Angoras around here, so far we found this one, Indian Springs Farm, that is somewhat close by.

but, we will try!

thank you all so much for your information.

I will google it, but what is a Hot shot?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah, a hot shot is a tool that shocks the animal, a cattle prod. I would never own a buck that I had to shock into submission. That temperment would never be bred here.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

MollyDora said:


> first: two wethers cost twice as much as one....I'm not so worried about the feeding, but the actual cost to get one, the Angoras are so expensive!
> second: It's really hard to find Angoras around here, so far we found this one, Indian Springs Farm, that is somewhat close by.
> 
> but, we will try!
> ...


Do you have to get angoras? You could get to mini wethers, or two mini pygoras (pygmy/angora mix).

I understand the expense! I would like nothing more than to buy a few bucks so I can have a closed herd, but quality goats are expensive.  Gladly, wethers are usually not that expensive since you can't breed them and many breeders get attached to them and would rather rehome them than eat them.


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

I will do some research. maybe we can get some Non angoras for now, some to learn from and once we're comfortable with our mini herd get a angora female and have her bred.... (I'm thinking a few years down the road). 

Yesterday little Moon actually started pawing (scratching his one leg on the ground) towards me too.... it almost seems he's more aggressive towards me then he is towards my fiance... which hurts my feelings just a little ;0)


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Try not to take it personally, he's just doing what he "thinks" he needs to do


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## Arkie (Sep 25, 2012)

Probably catch hades over this, but, the world was a better place when folks disciplined their children and their animals!

Bob


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## SDBoerGoats (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree with you Arkie! As far as using a hotshot on our buck, that was last year, he was 2 and got really cranky when he was in rut. He was zapped once, when he was trying to ram the gate. He never saw it coming and I am sure he thinks the gate got him. The whole place is now in hot wire and he didnt get nearly as bad this year. Hes pretty much his old docile self. 
If he was a cnstant source of arrogance and dangerous, he would be gone. But he is well bred and all his kids so far have his good temperament. 
I do agree a bad tempered buck should be wethered or sold. But I think a lot of them do need some discipline once in a while, their hormones go wild, but they need to know they must harness it.


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

I also agree on this! We just don't know how!

We don't want to just get rid of him... we will try getting him wethered first. (I guess that is some kind of discipline). 

as of right now, disciplining him sounds great in theory.. BUT, we don't have a hot shot yet, and I don't know where to buy one, we read about putting him down and sitting on him and my better half would like to try that, but we just don't know how that would look like. In order to do this we first have to get close and if something goes wrong, it's probably going to look pretty bad.

Also, as far as getting him neutered. He is not a registered Buck (he has no ear tag or tattoos), we don't know where he comes from, as the prev. owners got him from somebody who had only him and a fainting goat. (he was still small then, but still, nobody seems to know the original breeder), I guess we can't even be sure he's a true Angora... he might as well be a mix. 
With all of that in mind, we might as well get him neutered.

I will start my search for a good farm vet, which will be the biggest challenge.

ttyl
and again, thank you all for taking your time and giving your opinion and advice, it's truly appreciated!

PS: here is a better picture of Little Moon (Mooner)


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

ok, so we found a vet. 

He's coming out next week to neuter him! YAY.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Yay! :dance: That should be better for everyone. It'll take awhile for the hormones to "wash out" of his system, but he should be a little calmer.


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

I really truly hope so!!

i will keep you posted on how things go.


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## JulyBlizzard (Oct 19, 2012)

Mr. Moon is on a longer leash. What I have found so far is just how amazing these animals are concerning browsing. He is very picky about what he wants to eat and when. I found this to also be true about chickens, especially free ranged chickens. My opinion is that feed should be given but in the modern era it is forced far too often as the main aspect of husbandry. I most certainly believe in natural methods of care in most situations unless they become serious. 

Also I cannot stress it enough to do more than ask questions and when buying the main elements of beginning a herd find a vet to test and observe the animals in question. When we bought Little Moon he was in a small area and did not walk very much so we missed a hitch in his step. His coat also may have some mixed colors in it as well. 

Some of his demeanor seems to stem from being lonely. He's got a bit of aggressiveness but that combined(very real), with or ignorance and fear makes it slightly more difficult to work with him. I don't know how I would ever be able to shave him. He loves to come up to me and has bonded with me. But he has a tendency to suddenly start snorting or when being pet to start throwing his horns around. Though if I say scratch his withers or back he becomes quite calm. Also as he hates his horns being touched he does like movement or scratching of them. A strange and lovely beast. 

We are still debating what kind of goats we would like to go with. I favor dual purpose. I don't mind angoras and the thought of raising fiber that does not require dye and thus pollution. 

I am also very interested in sheep. Does anyone recommend any goat breeds that do well with sheep or any experience in combined flocks or close living?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

The only issue with sheep and goats is that goats need copper, and copper will kill sheep. Your goatie boy will need some way to get copper suppliments without feeding it to a sheep (=


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## JulyBlizzard (Oct 19, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> The only issue with sheep and goats is that goats need copper, and copper will kill sheep. Your goatie boy will need some way to get copper suppliments without feeding it to a sheep (=


That's an easy enough fix. Either separate paddock rotations and separate housing.  I hope. I think you can get great synergy from having both. One hitting up the grass the other hitting the browse and the chickens coming behind and cleaning up the bugs.

Or so I am dreaming at this point.


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## JulyBlizzard (Oct 19, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> The only issue with sheep and goats is that goats need copper, and copper will kill sheep. Your goatie boy will need some way to get copper suppliments without feeding it to a sheep (=


How do you like LaMachas? Are they truly gentle?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

JulyBlizzard said:


> How do you like LaMachas? Are they truly gentle?


I have a reservation on one, she hasn't arrived yet. What I've heard from the breeder is that they are gentle, intelligent, laid back, and hardy.

HOWEVER. The MOST important thing is how they were raised, and what their parents' personalities were. If they were raised with love, yet discipline when it came to undesirable behavior, then they usually turn out great.


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## JulyBlizzard (Oct 19, 2012)

I like the idea of a dual purpose breed. The one good thing about angoras is you can get fiber and the meat(or so I have read in a very old text).

But I would like to have meat and dairy. 

You mentioned discipline and I was wondering how do you discipline a goat? Thanks for all of your answers as you are super helpful.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

For meat and dairy I would suggest Nubians, they are great for dual purpose. Of course, if you breed and can't find pet homes for the wethers (so many wethers, not enough homes ...) those can be used for meat as well.

As for discipline, I use the ear method. I haven't had to use it often, but my little sister will every once and awhile be challenged by my queen doe, Gypsy.. When she is, I tell her to grab Gypsy's ear and yank her head away before she butts. I also tell her to grab Gypsy's collar (or scruff), raise her to eye level and say "NO!" If Gypsy behaves after that, I have my sister praise her for being a good girl.

After we started doing that (only when we need to) my sister is hardly challenged, and what's better is that now that Gypsy accepts her as a leader, her and my sister have become friends.


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## GTAllen (Jul 22, 2012)

All I have to say is good luck to you. Hopefully all works out for the best. Goats will do about anything for food. I have what I call "The Magic Green Scoop". I shake a couple cups of food around in the "Magic Scoop" and goats come running


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

Little Moon was neutered yesterday, it took him a long time to snap out of sedation and we really thougth we had lost him. this morning he is mad at us.

We'll try again in a little bit, but at the first try to attach his leash he just walked away. 

We hope that he can forgive us and feel bad for the guy as he has to be in pain. 

Poor Mooner


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Poor guy  But a wether's life is a much easier one. He won't have to go through the stress of rutt anymore, and it may be easier to bond with him once he calms down.


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## JulyBlizzard (Oct 19, 2012)

We just learned from a breeder that angoras do not like leads, leash or being constrained. So when you account from him coming to a new home, albeit with more space and him having been placed on a leash from time to time some of his misbehavior might be contributed to the leash. 

He also had lice and we gave him the medicine for external parasites(Ivomec for cattle). He will get another dose in two weeks.

The past few days he had begun to wag his tail and was excited when I came around b/c one then he isn't lonely and two I always brought a treat whether it was fresh berries, carrots or some fresh bush stems and leaves. Today though he seems somewhat pouty he finally wagged his tail when I came by. He is outside walking around without the normal umph. 

I can say that I love goats even with a guy that was in rut thinking he is the boss snorting and pawing the ground or trying to turn his horns on me. 

So nubians you say. I will look into that and see what is available and how they do in my area. 

Again thank you all so much for the advice. I look forward to hearing more.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

JulyBlizzard said:


> We just learned from a breeder that angoras do not like leads, leash or being constrained. So when you account from him coming to a new home, albeit with more space and him having been placed on a leash from time to time some of his misbehavior might be contributed to the leash. That's actually a goat thing, haha! If they aren't trained to walk on a leash they won't like it. But, tying them up is very frustrating for them. They need an area to walk around, not to be tied up.
> 
> He also had lice and we gave him the medicine for external parasites(Ivomec for cattle). He will get another dose in two weeks.
> 
> ...


I answered in red.


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

so here's the bad news, so far Moon has gotten worse.

It is now at a point that he rams the fence when we come near. I have tried to not bother him AT all and only confront him when I have something for him... and now when i hand feed him some treats, he takes them and then immediately slaps my hand with his horns.. 
We bought two Angora Wethers (yearlings) from a very reputable breeder. We will bring them home on Saturday.
At this point we don't know if we want to keep little Moon.
Visiting at the breeders farm it was so nice to see how it CAN be, all their goats (I'd say between 70 and 100) were nice, the ones that came up to us we could pet and telling them about Moon's behavior they were just shaking their heads.

I feel bad and i don't want to give up on him, but he seems dangerous and I really don't want his bad behaviors to rub off on the new wethers. 

what do you think?


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

At this point ... I would also be afraid the behavior would rub off. I'm sorry ...  Have you tried a watergun, or hitting his horns with a stick -- hard? They HATE their horns being hit, it gives him a headache. I know it sounds mean but it's worth a try. It'll be easier for both of you if he behaves.


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

last time I hit his horns he could have cared less. 

My friend gave me a phone number for a friend of hers that has experience in goat training, we'll give her a call tomorrow and see if maybe she can give us an idea.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I hope so ... I'm sorry about this. It's hard to get to them at that age. I've had an ornery doe but as ornery as she is, she still loves people and has a kind heart. It's just that she's the Queen so she thinks she can usurp our authority sometimes  The worst I've dealt with is a wether who thought butting was fun play. But our kids are disbudded and miniatures.


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## JulyBlizzard (Oct 19, 2012)

We were able to meet the wether and some great breeders at Indian Spring Farm. We will be picking up two wethers and hopefully some does for the spring. If we get lucky enough and get enough work done we might be breeding sooner than later.


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## JulyBlizzard (Oct 19, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> At this point ... I would also be afraid the behavior would rub off. I'm sorry ...  Have you tried a watergun, or hitting his horns with a stick -- hard? They HATE their horns being hit, it gives him a headache. I know it sounds mean but it's worth a try. It'll be easier for both of you if he behaves.


We need to try he watering gun. I also bought a cattle prod but I have to return it for one that works lol.

Today I spent a lot of time working with him. I took him on a lead and went for a walk. We have 40 acres so it was a good long walk about two hours or more. I'll be honest he kept coming up on me and I was a bit afraid. I over came my fear and decided to feel the pain if it comes. The pain didn't come. He was well behaved. I removed the lead from him and he followed me around until we got closer to home then he immediately ran to grass that is just outside his normal reach and mawed down. On our way back I jumped up on a boulder and saw that he wanted to join and there not being much room I figured his horns would accidently bump me so I jumped to the neighboring one. He jumped right up on the one next to me and started munching down on blackberry shoot that hung over.

All was good. So I thought let me see how he does without being tethered. I went to smoke on the porch which isn't all that far. The home is fenced in but unfortunately it is all barbed wire which with the bottom gap is meaningless for goats. Sure enough he walked the fence and came up to be near. About that time he was being a bit more aggressive. Nothing too horrible. But he went from following me around and listening to commands like come here sounds to doing whatever he pleased and stopped following me. He was fairly gracious when I put the lead back on him. I stuck a sapling branch in his pen so he could scratch his horns. Then of course he kept trying to slap my hand even if it was resting on a rail and not being directed to him in any way.

My big fear is his behavior rubbing off on the young wethers we will be bringing home this weekend. And to hear you make that remark lets me know that fear is a very real possibility.

I guess he has a few more days to prove me wrong. I understand Angora meat is good. So I'll have to check with the butcher and figure that out just in case. I don't want to be like the previous owners and pass trouble along. We kind of knew it could be a problem to buy a goat for $45 that if he was just good and not great would have been worth $500 plus. Looking at his teeth he appears to be four years of age and not the three it was claimed.

I also think that our lack of goat handling knowledge probably contributed to his behavior. That's the one thing when you read all the books they rarely or as of yet I have not read anything about. I finally got a specific angora book in the mail and it has some tips for handling but it has mostly to do with sheering the animals. The good breeders we visited also gave the same pointers for their handling.

They had one buck there that was in rut and he was massive! His horns were like a long horns' horns. He was the size of a calf that has been weaned! He was also very gentle and wanted all of your attention. Amazing!

I would love more points as far as handling goats. How you approach them, when you have to give them shots or anything that might raise their alarm and how that all works. We do know to rub a goat under the mouth and not in the face or nose.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I don't think his behavior is your fault at all -- you're new to him, he doesn't respect you yet. As an only goat for his whole life, he may have security issues and feel the need to be dominate all the time.


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

Little Moon was picked up today and went to a new home, where he can freerange all day and does not have to have a lot of human contact.
yesterday the day started off well, we armed ourselves with the spray bottle and at first it worked fantastic!, he slapped my hand with his horns, I sprayed him, we did that 2-3 times and he got it, no more slapping!! He was a sweet little lamb all morning, then my better half and I went on a short walk, we were maybe gone for one hour at the most and when we returned, he had switched personalities back to possessed goat. He took it as far as running towards us, rearing up and thrusting his horns towards us at the same time, ... he was literally jumping up. He pawed the ground, had his tongue sticking out, the whole aggressive shebang.. well, by then he seemed to realize that the water from the spray bottle won't do him any harm and did not care how much or where the water hit him.
We then decided that we're done with it and that it's too much of a risk that his bad behavior will rub off on the new wetheres.
We're sad and relieved at the same time.
Now let's hope that we'll have more luck next time around.
Thank you for all your help and encouraging words!!!!! It truly is appreciated.


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm glad to hear you're all in a better situation. Make sure you meet the wethers first -- make sure they're healthy and friendly! :thumb:


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

we met the wethers and the breeders last week.
They look very healthy, they were sheared not too long ago, so the breeders showed us their fleeces and they were awesome.
We chose two, one that my better half really wanted since he has a show quality fleece and I chose the other one because he was the calmest one, he let me pet him and did not run away.
We will finish the fence today and pick up the two tomorrow.


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## JulyBlizzard (Oct 19, 2012)

Here are our new wethers!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

CUTEST. THINGS.

Looks like one boy may still have his "jewels"


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## JulyBlizzard (Oct 19, 2012)

Woodhavenfarm said:


> CUTEST. THINGS.
> 
> Looks like one boy may still have his "jewels"


:cheers: Yeah they both still have their junk. But it is about to fall off.

The breeder is selling off their flock. They are an older couple(eighties), and they cannot do it anymore. They have had many grand champions. So we will try to pick up as many goats as we can from them because they have some of the best reds and their goats are well taken care of and loved(how many ands can I add in this terribly constructed sentence?). We will be definitely buying a proven doe and they said they would breed it before we pick it up.

I hope we can somehow score five does from them before they are gone. I will have to figure out about getting a buck at a later date. First I must tweak my facilities and also I need to build a separate facility-run for a buck or two and the wethers will have to move in with them. That is a rough plan.


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## MollyDora (Oct 19, 2012)

they were both banded and their "jewels" have yet to fall off.
We love them, they are so sweet. It is such a joy to be able to go into the goat area and not have to be worried about being bucked at or attacked. They are the sweetest little things and it's so cute how they follow each other. 
We are in love!!!!


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

That's so wonderful! :dance: I'm glad you're getting the chance to see how fantastic these creatures can be!


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