# Dogs



## Huckleberry (Mar 12, 2010)

We had our first attempted dog attack last night. I've read about dogs being an issue, but didn't think we would have to worry about this since we never see our neighbor dogs out. We woke up out of a dead sleep and heard them out in our field barking and running around the goat pen. I couldn't hear the goats at first and my heart sank, especially since our neighbors have a pitbull. When we went running outside we were so glad to see that everyone was ok. The two big guys didn't even seem scarred and wanted to stay outside their shelter. The three bottle kids are usually noisy whenever something is going on, but they somehow knew to stay silent, I'm so proud of them. We always keep the kid's locked up at night, but are away all day at work and now I so scarred to let them out all day. We have a good fence, but it's not electric (yet!). What does everyone do about this as far as the kids go. I wonder if it's best for their own safety to keep them locked up while we're away until they are a little older, they're all under 3 months. The three kids are sharing a temporary 8x8 fully enclosed shelter for now.


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## Hasligrove (Dec 10, 2008)

Here is my dog attach story I wrote for NAPgA Newsletter awhile back-Sorry a bit long.

We were newbies! Never raised goats before, never had packgoats before but we had animal backgrounds with horses and other livestock growing up. How hard could it be? We attended several seminars, read several books and jumped in head first. We purchased two kids and two 3 year old Oberhasli. We were all set before our new friends were to come home. We had a small barn with separate living areas for the big boys and little guys. We had separate pastures with 5ft high field fence and electric on inside, outside and one up at 5.5ft. We had hay, milk, grain, mineral salt and water. Welcome to the world of packgoats!
Our goat barn was down the road a ways from the house. Not the ideal situationâ€¦I wanted to be able to look out the window and see the boys but this was what we had. It wasnâ€™t too far away but a bit isolated so we made sure we had good fences. We went to the goat barn morning and night and sometimes mid day depending. Our boys were growing and learningâ€¦along with usâ€¦and we were having a wonderful time.
One misty morning, my partner went to go feed the goats and he knew something was terribly wrong the moment he arrived. A quick glance around and he saw the worst. Sockeye (one of the kids) was laying motionless near the fence, Neptune (a big boy) and Coho (the other kid) were cowering in the barn, Jupiter (the other big guy) was up in the large vine maple tree that he liked to climb and under the hay bin, laying like fat lions, were two dogs! It happened to be hunting season and he had his rifle in the truck and took care of the two dogs before they even knew what hit them. He entered hastily to assess the damage.
Poor Sockeye was dead and really chewed up. There was nothing we could do for him. Neptune and Coho, who were in the barn, were pretty beat up with lots of lacerations. Jupiter, up in the tree, was fine. Coho was by far the worst and was in shock. He put his jacket around Coho, called me and called the vet. We loaded the three goats up and off we went to the vet. (Make sure you have made contact with a vetâ€¦even if you never need themâ€¦you need to have one you can call in an emergency) We were not sure if Coho would make it. He had a deep laceration across the back of his neck and his esophagus had been punctured (we were not sure if he would be able to eat or not). Many, many staples and sutures later they were recuperating in separate rooms. The two big boys went home that evening but Coho stayed several days. I would sit with him and he would put his head against mine and kind of whimper. It was the worst several days. What amazing animals though. He started eating the next day and slowly began to heal. The wound on the back of his neck even healed and he can lift his head high and normal. The only fun out of the whole ordealâ€¦was seeing the faces of the vet techs as we walked in. They were expecting little goats (they are not a livestock vet but were all we had in an emergency) and their eyes grew wide. There were words muttered like â€œwowâ€, â€œlook at those hornsâ€, â€œso bigâ€ and from one small child waiting with his kittenâ€¦â€look mom! Moose!â€

Soâ€¦.What happened? We had been doing some work around the property and had piled up a bunch of logs right next to the fence. The stray dogs must have climbed up on the logs, jumped in, and then were unable to get out. The moral of the storyâ€¦check inside and outside of fences regularly for any means for a predator to get in and maybe invest in a livestock guardian. A simple oversight on our part had devastating consequences. Donâ€™t learn the hard way like we did.
A funny side note â€“ We learned something about â€œthe mysterious mind of the goatâ€ (as I call it) that day. Neptune (one of the big boys) was heard boss and always a bit nasty. He was the bully, show off and just had a chip on his shoulder. We nick-named him Nasty Neptune. After the dog attack and Neptune got hurt he no longer was the herd boss. Jupiter took over that roll. Neptune was instantly the sweetest guy and Jupiter took on those nasty traits. It made me realize that dealing with the bossâ€¦you have to change your tactics a bitâ€¦and heâ€™s not really a bad goatâ€¦just the boss. Learning to think like a goatâ€¦or better yetâ€¦out think a goat has been my biggest challenge! 

--I did change the pen a bit more and added a 6ft high cyclone fence panel pen that they were locked in at night.


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## ali pearson (Aug 12, 2009)

I personally would be afraid to leave them out when you are not there. 

I just googled "livestock protection collar" and see that there is a collar you can put on your animals that releases some repellant toxic stuff if they are attacked. I am wondering if anyone in the packgoat community has tried these, or know about them.


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## Bob Jones (Aug 21, 2009)

Before I got the goats a neighbor's pit bull destroyed a rabbit cage and killed the rabbit.

I gave him the option of getting rid of the dog or facing a lawsuit. I figured it could have been someone's child.

We have a reasonable expectation of safety from at-loose animals, so I will take preemptive action against loose dogs in the neighborhood, even before they get on my property.

Fighter planes have a chaff they can release to distract an incoming missile. I have chickens and ducks and rabbits before you get to the goats.

"Incoming dog..." "Release the chickens." 

I heard that the feinting goats were bred as sacrificial animals to protect the herds from predators.

I have been looking at burros as a protective companion to my goats... And house-broken yaks. But I haven't found a barn to sleep in for when I find out what "wah, wah, wah" means.


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## sweetgoatmama (Dec 10, 2008)

I love my big white dog. She is my second and has served faithfully for almost 8 years now. Alice swears by her llama, and he is a good one. He does fire drills and practices rounding up all the goats. My dog, Annie, spent the first two weeks of her career here just sitting with one goat and then another to get to know them. It was cute considering she was only about 3 1/2 months old when I got her.

She's never been outside the pasture except for a few escapes here and there.


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## jross (Dec 20, 2008)

From your post it's hard to tell what kind of pen your goats have. It sounds like some kind of a pen, within a larger fenced pasture, with a shelter of some kind.

Anyway, here' my 2 cents worth. Neighborhood dogs are the #1 threat to goats (and chickens, rabbits, etc). It think they are more of a danger than wild predators, generally speaking. If you don't have a strong, high fence, that dogs can't jump over, tear thru, or dig under, your animals are at risk. Over the years I have lost goats, rabbits, and chickens to neighborhood dogs and this is what I have learned. There is a natural prey/predator relationship between dogs and goats. 

And if the dogs themselves weren't such a big problem, their owners multiply the trouble. If you complain that their dog is threatening your animals they usually deny that it's their dog, or sort of shrug it off, like, "dogs will be dogs, ha ha". A good neighbor will take it seriously and really do something about containing their dogs. But I've even had a couple of people tell me to just shoot their dogs if they cause trouble. I told them I don't like shooting dogs, and if they want their dog shot, do it themselves.

So, here's what I've learned over the years. 

1. I don't let my goats or chickens "free range". I either feed them in their pen, or in the case of the goats, take them out to browse. I stay with them the whole time.

2. My pen is high, strong, and dig proof. Only a bear could tear my my goat pen fence down.

3. If a neighbor's dogs are messing around the goat/chicken pen I run them off with my slingshot. A paintball gun would be even better. I will then warn the owners about the dogs. A few times I have actually had to shoot dogs. I really hate doing that, because I love dogs. And it can lead to real complications with the neighbors. Before doing that I would strongly recommend talking to the local cops/animal control people and making sure what the laws in your area are. Also, if the neighbor is hard headed, ask them to talk to the neighbors and explain things to them. Where I have always lived you are within your rights to shoot dogs that are threatening your animals. But you are also responsible for making sure you do it safely (don't shoot into the neighboring property).

Also, it isn't just your goats kids you need to worry about. Dogs will kill or mutilate full grown goats, with ease. And be careful going into a pen where a livestock-killing dog is. My wife did that one time, and just barely escaped being attacked by the dog.


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## Huckleberry (Mar 12, 2010)

Thanks for all the input. The dogs haven't been back, but I don't think they will considering the noise my husband made :twisted: 
More and more I am thinking about getting a heard dog (we officially have a heard now  ).


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

A herding dog won't protect your goats against predators. You'll need a livestock guardian dog.


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## Huckleberry (Mar 12, 2010)

Oh, well I guess I'll have to do my research. What breeds make good guardian dogs?


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

Akbash, Owtscharka, Maremmano Abruzzese, Kangal, and others.

I looked into this last year, too, and it's - at least in Germany - not so easy to find a reliable livestock guardian that still has enough instinct to work and act properly because most of the now so-called livestock guardian breeds are bred for show only and are not tested in guarding abilities.

Note of caution: if you don't have experience in training dogs and a livestock guardian is your first dog you can be in for a world of trouble and disappointments. They are a breed apart, not easy to train, strong-headed, independent and need good supervision during training to learn what they're supposed to do and what not (f.e. which people are allowed to enter your farm, not jump fences, etc.)


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