# Worried she's too small



## Westcoaster87 (Feb 6, 2015)

My nubian/boer buck escaped last year and bred one of my small saanen does who at the time would have only been about 7 months old. She's coming up to kidding and is still one of the smaller of the saanens. She wasn't supposed to be bred until this year and I'm getting nervous considering her small size and narrow pelvis.

Does anyone have experience with a similar scenario that could give me a heads up on possible complications?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How much does she weigh? And how small is she?

If she is really small, I would have a vet on call when she kids in case. She may need a C-section.


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## Westcoaster87 (Feb 6, 2015)

I'm not 100% sure but compared to my boer/nubian doe I would guess she's about 90-95lbs and is 12 months old. The buck is the same age and is about 140lbs.


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## Barnes19 (Sep 8, 2013)

I've seen much smaller does bred too young kid out just fine. But its of course entirely possible she will have trouble. If she has a narrow pelvis, that is likely to be a problem. Could you measure pin-pin and tell us what it is?

Another thing ... how have you been feeding her the last month or so? Ideally, not too much protein, in fact don't overdo it at all. That would be more likely to cause issues as at that stage any extra goes straight to kid size not her.

You need to keep a good eye on her, be there when she's kidding to help, and have the vets number on hand. If it seems slow, just ring. Don't wait.

Some vets appreciate being given a ring beforehand, just to let them know "I have a goat that is way to young and small ready to kid in the next week or two, so have your birth kit ready and don't be surprised if you get an emergency call at 2 in the morning".

One of mine was bred (due to a double houdini stunt) at 5 months old, and for apparently hormonal reasons her growth just shut down. I had her given something to abort ... but come 4 1/2 months later, after thinking some mineral was lacking and stopping her growing, it was obvious she was still preggers after all.

Come kidding time I was driven up the wall with worry ... but you know what? In the end, she kidded in 15 minutes from hooves to whole kid. Not a single hitch. She was 75#. The kid was 5#, healthy, strong, and she made a great mother. I let her mother for about 10 days, and then sold baby as a bottle kid to give her a chance to dry off and grow again. She's now 14 months old, 100#+, which is still a little under but gaining fast, initially she was a little slow but now she's in a growth spurt, and right back on track.

I was amazed! If your girl has a narrow pelvis, you're more likely to have trouble, but often these girls just surprise you.


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## Westcoaster87 (Feb 6, 2015)

We don't supplement our does with grain. They're on local orchard hay, spruce boughs and free range access to a goat block.

About 3 days ago there was a small amount of yellow discharge with no odour. We thought this might be her mucous plug but there have been no further signs of labour. Her energy is good- in fact she was running around the place this morning.

Is there an increased risk of kid death if the doe is small? What signs should I look for?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Just try and be there for the birth in case it is a dystocia or large kid.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Happened to one of my goats. I gave CMPK as soon as I saw the bag. Figured one of the challenges is that she hasn't packed away minerals in her skeleton yet, and she's having high mineral demands to make kids and make milk. 

Calcium and magnesium also play a role in muscle activity, and pushing kids out is very strenous exercise.

The birth was as smooth as our best senior does' births. But she doesn't look as good in topline as her littermates. We didn't realize she was bred until she bagged up.

She is eating for 3 in a way - maintenance, her own growth, and the babies' growth. Orchard hay and goat block are not an adequate diet for growing dairy goats or lactating dairy goats. Where's the calcium? You can short a senior doe and it might work out fine, but young moms are working at the very edge of their ability and need full nutritional support to succeed. 

And what everyone else said about dystocia risk. Make sure you have a way of knowing when labor starts and know if you'd need to take her to the vet or if the vet will come to you - if you have to take her, have transportation ready.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Westcoaster87 said:


> Is there an increased risk of kid death if the doe is small? What signs should I look for?


It's the same normal labor signs. Like, if there's no progress after 30 minutes, go in and see what's wrong. But if a senior doe doesn't progress, we might assume that the kid isn't positioned, and we focus on that. If a small doe doesn't progress, we also consider that the kid may simply be too big to fit - we're quicker to call a vet, quicker to consider a c-section. I don't carry a phone for a normal birth, but I would carry a phone and the vet's number for a small doe.


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## Westcoaster87 (Feb 6, 2015)

The orchard bales we buy are an orchard/alfalfa blend and the goat block has calcium (and copper- it's not a sheep block). There is also horse minerals available to them which they seem to like. They have free range access to water and minerals and the hay is fed twice daily.

My concern about emergency vet visits is that the closest vet is over half an hour away and our vet is 45 minutes away. We live up a mountain in the back of the town. So for that reason I want to be fully prepared for anything that could possibly go wrong with her.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

If it's not a dairy block, it won't have as much calcium as dairy goats need. The mineral demands of bagging up can take away the minerals her muscles need for delivery.

Is there somewhere you could meet your vet in the middle (like a rest area)? Is there room in your truck or trailer for a vet to work? If she needs a c-section, she'll need a vet and that's that. That's true for any delivery, it's just that small girls bred to big boys have a higher risk. If you're on facebook, you can join Goat Vet Corner and read the birthing file for a better idea of what can go wrong and how to deal if it does. 

If the kid gets stuck, yes, it can die in there or get hurt or killed in delivery. If it doesn't fit, the doe may push it out anyway, tearing herself in the process. Many breeders breed at 7 months if the doe is big enough (typically 80% of adult size) and it works out fine. But it seems like a lot of Boer bucks throw big kids, so it's good to have a Plan B.


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## Westcoaster87 (Feb 6, 2015)

Do you mean a dairy goat block or simply a dairy (cow or goat)? I don't think I have seen either at our local feed store but I can take a look.

I don't have space in a vehicle though there is a park at about the half way point. If I let the vet know in advance we could agree to the best way of going about it.

Is the size of the buck at birth any indication of the size of kids he will throw? And is the size of the doe's belly before she kids an indication of how large the kids might be?

The buck was very tiny when he was born and his mother is on the small side. The small doe getting ready to kid does not have an overly large belly either.

I suppose at the end of the day it's just going to come down to being prepared and like you said, having a plan B in place.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

There's always a risk that the kid will be too big for a doe's body, in any birth, but it's usually a tiny risk. If your doe is 70% of her adult size, chances are, her birthing parts are only 70% of adult size, too, so the risk of a fetal-doe mismatch are a little higher. Yes, the buck's size at birth - and especially the size of his other kids - can give insight into what he "throws." Some of it is random, some is management of the doe, but a LOT of it is what the buck throws. 

Belly size doesn't tell you much. Sometimes it's nothing but amniotic fluid, sometimes it's a litter of tiny babies, sometimes it's one huge beast.

I read once about a vet doing a c-section in a van at a rest area. The vet and owner worked to find a solution that worked, even though it was unconventional (and, in that story, the owner didn't even know the vet beforehand!).

I've never seen dairy blocks at my store. But I know the goat blocks are not a good nutritional balance for lactating goats (I finally learned to read the nutritional analysis label). I offer them to my goats, but also feed alfalfa and pregnancy rations. CMPK is pretty cheap insurance IMO. Covers some of the big mineral demands, may fend off hypocalcemia, may help a little with muscle tone for carrying the kids and birthing them... 

Your doe will probably be fine. But if you prepare for the risks, she'll have better odds of surviving if things don't go fine.


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## Westcoaster87 (Feb 6, 2015)

Huuuuge boy born at 10:30 this morning! So much for her being 3 weeks behind the others :-/

Both mom and baby are happy and healthy though. Just waiting for her to pass the after birth.


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## harleybarley (Sep 15, 2014)

Yay!!! Such a cute pic!! Congrats!


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## canyontrailgoats (Jan 4, 2014)

Congrats on a successful kidding! Give mama some warm molasses water and alfalfa, she deserves it


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## Westcoaster87 (Feb 6, 2015)

Oooooh, I wish I had!!! She was amazing! I gave her some grain with molasses mixed in but what you said actually sounds rejuvenating


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## milk and honey (Oct 31, 2010)

Oh good news! Did you need to assist?


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## Westcoaster87 (Feb 6, 2015)

milk and honey said:


> Oh good news! Did you need to assist?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


Yes but only a bit. His head was stuck and then he got stuck at the shoulders. I think her water had broken so much earlier that she was very dry as well which made things a little harder for her. His presentation was perfect though so it all worked out


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

She does look small but glad it all worked out well. That is a precious picture. Congratulations.


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## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

Congratulations!!!! So happy everything went so well. They sure look healthy and happy.
This season my poor Petunia got bred at the tender age of 5 months. She kidded a very large doeling last month at 10 months without issue.:dance:


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## Westcoaster87 (Feb 6, 2015)

That is young! Fantastic that it all worked out well


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