# Registration delema



## mommal (May 18, 2016)

I have a PB Nigerian buck that I bought from a woman who claimed he was from very high quality bloodlines. At the time I bought him, I wasn't too worried about registration. But I had asked her for the paperwork anyway in case I want to register him. I have not been able to get a hold of the breeder to get any paperwork, though I have been trying now for many months. My goal in getting him is to breed him to my Nubian does to get Mini Nubians. 

How difficult would it be to get his offspring registered anyway? I mean, is there a DNA test that I could send in to get him some kind of paperwork? If that meant his offspring were grade instead fully registered, how long would it take for that to drop off the pedigree and how difficult is it to sell grade offspring?

Thank you!


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

From my understanding there is no way to register minis as grade or NOA, and there is no way to register him without the papers. 

Prime example of why it's important to have papers in hand on the day of purchase! Hope she gets back to you.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Some breeders sell registered goats for higher prices than those without papers. You may have to offer to pay the difference in order to get the registration paperwork from her.


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

Do you have any information about your buck, like who is parents are? If he's never been registered before, and you know his parents, you can fill out the registration application yourself and send it in. 

If he is already registered, and you know the breeder's name, you can try contacting the registry he's registered in with a duplicate request. They'll then send a new registration certificate to the buck's current owner (which would be the breeder) although they may work with you and send the papers to you instead.

How have you tried to contact the breeder? Maybe his/her number as changed? Could you find them on facebook, or do you have an address to mail letters to? If you still can't get ahold of them, it would seem to me that they realized they were mistaken about being able to register him...


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## mommal (May 18, 2016)

Thank you for your responses.

The buck was the same price as registered bucks are selling for here $250. No paperwork was promised, but she implied that he could be registered. I think she just doesn't want to do the back work. I know his sire is registered and the dam's grandmother is. Besides that, I cannot recall what she said. She is still selling pretty bucks and does on CL, but won't answer any of my attempts to contact her.

Well, I feel like I need to chalk this one up to a lesson learned. I put so much time into him, too. He was very wild and had not been handled at all by the breeder, so he was a piece of work, though pretty...

I have even asked her to let me know his parentage in case I could do the work myself, but no response...

I'm thinking this buck is just not worth the trouble.


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## deerbunnyfarm (Dec 14, 2015)

ShireRidgeFarm said:


> Do you have any information about your buck, like who is parents are? If he's never been registered before, and you know his parents, you can fill out the registration application yourself and send it in.
> 
> If he is already registered, and you know the breeder's name, you can try contacting the registry he's registered in with a duplicate request. They'll then send a new registration certificate to the buck's current owner (which would be the breeder) although they may work with you and send the papers to you instead.
> 
> How have you tried to contact the breeder? Maybe his/her number as changed? Could you find them on facebook, or do you have an address to mail letters to? If you still can't get ahold of them, it would seem to me that they realized they were mistaken about being able to register him...


No no no, don't do this! That is such a shady thing to do. If the breeder didn't sell him with papers in hand she didn't intend for him to be sold with papers. Price doesn't matter if you were willing to pay for him before getting his papers unfortunately.

Please people, do not go behind a breeder's back to try to register or get copies of the papers. That is so backhanded!


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## ShireRidgeFarm (Sep 24, 2015)

deerbunnyfarm said:


> No no no, don't do this! That is such a shady thing to do. If the breeder didn't sell him with papers in hand she didn't intend for him to be sold with papers. Price doesn't matter if you were willing to pay for him before getting his papers unfortunately.
> 
> Please people, do not go behind a breeder's back to try to register or get copies of the papers. That is so backhanded!


I said what I did under the assumption that the breeder intended the animal to be registered when sold, but now the purchaser can no longer get in contact with the breeder. If the breeder specifically said, "I'm selling this goat as unregistered" then yeah, you don't want to try and register that animal. But this case sounds to me like the breeder sold a registered animal and then didn't follow through on the paperwork.

I'm not trying to be shady.  Registries are in place for a reason - to improve the breed - and poor quality goats should not be registered. I'm certainly not advocating sneaking around the breeder's plans, that won't do anyone any good. But, if a goat is sold as registered and the breeder won't help you register it, my thought was, well, just get it done yourself.


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## mommal (May 18, 2016)

Thank you for your opinions on this. This situation is gray, though. The breeder did know I was somewhat interested in the paperwork at the time of sale and said she could try to get them to me. But it was never confirmed to be part of the deal nor did I care that much at the time. Since then, I have tried to follow up but get no response. 

I knew the situation was fairly loose and it is my own fault if I don't have papers (and that's okay... I don't have to use him). But because she had said she would try to get them.... well, I just kept holding out hope.

It is not a back-handed situation here. Although I can understand where another example like this might be wrong. I am not trying to gain any more than was implied. And, in the end, I lose and that's my lesson.

I will just not use this buck.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Red flag was when she told you the granddam was registered, not the dam. I would get papers on everything before the sale going forward. With all my kids that pass the conformation test that I would pass onto buyers, I already pay the fee, register them, and have papers in hand. She either cannot register the dam, or doesn't want to spend the $$ to do so.


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## mommal (May 18, 2016)

I agree GoatBlessings. I think she either cannot or does not want to be bothered with it. I don't blame her for not wanting to, but I have been frustrated (with myself, really) because it was a long drive, money and work, she really talked him up and told me she would try... and I was naive.

Here he is:

Please tell me he's got poor conformation and it's fine that I let him go.... (okay, be honest... what do you think?). Should I let him go, or use him in an unregistered line?


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Need mini people on this one!!! I'm not a good judge of ND....


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I'd like to see a little more brisket on him. And his rump is a bit steep for my liking. But I like his solid body, dairy neck, great rear legs, good Nigerian face, and blue eyes are big selling point with a lot of people. On a scale of 1-10 (10 being the best) I'd rate him as a 6-7. Definitely acceptable, but not a top choice. He's a very nice little buck for what you paid.


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## mommal (May 18, 2016)

Thank you Groovyoldlady. I appreciate your input! Well he's not bad then. But, since I have another that is registered, I may just let him go.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Native on Appearance (NOA) Registration Procedure
**Due to the large numbers of animals now registered as Miniature Dairy Goats, TMGR is closing the NOA grade program effective 12/31/16. Registration of animals out of ADGA Experimental does will still be registered but grades with unknown parantage and/or ADGA NOA recorded grade animals will not. Please plan accordingly.

Definition of NOA: A doe or buck for which parentage cannot be proven by registration papers, but adheres to the TMGR standard of its breed. (please refer to the TMGR breed standards.)

**** NOTE ****

If paperwork exists from one of the qualified registries, it is strongly suggested that you obtain those registration certificates to submit to TMGR for registration of your animals, and/or go back to the breeder and re-create the paper trail.

Once your goat is registered with TMGR as Native on Appearance it will remain as such even if you later get a registration certificate from an alternate registry.

How To Apply:

1. Fill out an NOA application indicating which breed the animal resembles.

2. Provide three (3) close-up photographs showing; right side, left side, and a close-up of the head showing breed characteristics.

3. Provide a letter stating why the NOA status is being requested, and all known history and heritage of the animal. Include statements from previous owners or breeders when possible.

4. Submit a non-refundable registration fee of $6 for members - you must be a TMGR member to use the NOA program. This fee includes review by the NOA committee of all information submitted. Requests for additional photos or information may be necessary. Once the application is reviewed and accepted, the doe/buck will be registered as NOA with the designation of NOA as part of the registration number.

A Native on Appearance doe must be bred to a TMGR Experimental, American, or Purebred registered buck to produce kids which are F1.

A Native on Appearance buck must be bred to a TMGR Experimental, American, or Purebred registered doe to produce kids which are F1.

Effective July 2012


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## mommal (May 18, 2016)

Goathiker, it sounds like maybe this buck could be registered as NOA? So, it sounds like it might work out fine for what I'm planning then... if he could breed a standard Nubian doe that is registered... would that work to create an F1? I'm sorry I'm slow at understanding this. And thank you so much for taking time to explain this to me.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I think that you'd have to use him on another line of Mini's from your other buck actually. .


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## mommal (May 18, 2016)

goathiker said:


> I think that you'd have to use him on another line of Mini's from your other buck actually. .


Got it. That's what I thought I was reading, but it didn't seem to make sense to me... Although I guess that's because it is a registry for miniature goats, right?

Thank you again!


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