# Please help I need advice



## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

I need help. I have just reserved five new baby registered nubian goats. One is a week old, one is a two days old and they other three aren't born yet. My family wants to start raising, showing, and breeding dairy goats and this is the beginning of our little herd. I have come across a problem though. I don't have any milkers and these are all bottle babies that are on CAE prevention programs. I don't want to shock their digestion with a switch to milk replacer and from what I read, it isn't recommended to use at all anyway. What do I do?


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## Lamberts_Mini-goats (Nov 2, 2012)

You could use cow milk from the store


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

Well you could purchase milk or see if the breeder will get you some milk when you take them home and gradually switch them onto the replacer or whole cows milk.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Ask for some of her supply of milk to slowly change them over to whole cows milk...if she doesnt have any to send with them then you can give them the cows milk with some electros between...not mixed..for ex: if the baby usually drinks three oz of milk...give her only 1 1/2 oz milk...then an hour later 1 1/2 oz electros..then you can slowly build the milk up until baby is back to full milk...Some will go right to cows milk with out the electros with no problem..if you choose that just keep a watch the poop..if it changes..then slow down...: ) good luck and have fun : )


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## rhodalee (Feb 11, 2013)

when i had my bottle baby I used 1 gallon whole milk pour some of it out and add 1 can evaporated milk and 1 cup butter milk
The little one didn't have any problems with it


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## JenVise (Dec 7, 2012)

I use the same as rhodalee and my babies are REALLY thriving on it. I take out 2 cups of the whole milk and then add in the other ingredients.


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## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

I have read that cows milk doesn't have enough fat in it. Is this why you add the other ingredients? Why not goat milk replacer? Do you know? Thanks for the replies.


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## JenVise (Dec 7, 2012)

Most people have a lot of luck with just whole cows milk...My babies were weak and small (triplets and quads) and needed a little extra boost. The other ingredients add calories and fat and richness to the milk. 

My Vet told me to absolutely avoid replacer. The directions have to be followed to the letter and many babies do not digest it properly. I have had a lot of people tell me that they use it with no problems, I have just heard too many horror stories from others and my vet to even chance it.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

yep adding the butter milk and evaporated milk makes it richer and more calories...
replacer many times can cause allergies and illness...its best to avoid it all together..


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

rdmtnranch said:


> I have read that cows milk doesn't have enough fat in it. Is this why you add the other ingredients? Why not goat milk replacer? Do you know? Thanks for the replies.


Whole cow's milk is fine, but the buttermilk adds xtra fat if you can get it whole as well, not the 2% or reduced fat buttermilk. But I guess its' better than no buttermilk at all? The evap helps with extra calories too.
Goat milk replacer probably costs an arm & a leg. Needless to say I've never used it.
Regular milk replacer? Some have had great success & others it was a disaster.
Sweetgoats has used a replacer but I dont know what brand.


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## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

okay another question. What about Johnes which I have read can come from cows milk? Also since we plan on showing them will this stunt their growth?:worried:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Cow's milk from the store is pasteurized. You don't have to worry about that.


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## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

Oh duh. That makes sense. Should have thought of that.


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## JenVise (Dec 7, 2012)

I have a dam raised doeling that is 8 weeks old...I also have a 6 week old buckling that I bottle fed...They are both boer. My doeling started out at almost 9 pounds. My buckling was a quad and was just 4 pounds at birth..My buckling is now only 1 pound smaller than my doeling...so I haven't noticed any slow growth or stunting


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## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

would it be better just to buy goat milk from someone?


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## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

Jen that is good to hear. I really just want to do what is best for these babies.


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## JenVise (Dec 7, 2012)

You can ask 100 people and get 75 different answers. You will have to find what works best for you. I do it the way I do because it works best for me and my babies are happy, healthy, and thriving. Mom's milk is always best, and I'm sure fresh goats milk from another source would be a close second. All of my other does that were fresh had kids on them, and I didn't want to steal from them...so that's why I use the milk mixture. If you can get some fresh goats milk that would be great! If not, then the whole milk IMO is a close 3rd


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes, if you find a constant source of goats milk..thats' always the best choice...


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## HomesteadRed (Feb 28, 2013)

Just to clarify... You said milk from the spree is pasteurized therefore would be ok for the kids... That means I should not feed raw cow (as in straight from the cow to the bottle) milk to the newborn kids?


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## HomesteadRed (Feb 28, 2013)

From the store...


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

I wouldn't because I don't know anyone with a cow well enough to trust that they've done their testing. Same with raw goats milk really. Unless I knew the source well and knew their herd managment and test results, I would pasturize it. I've raised many bottle babies on Homogenized cows milk from the store, thay have all done very well.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

we feed out bottle babies raw goats milk...they are thriving on it..but as goathiker said.we know our source..: ) store bought is just fine..make sure its whole milk


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## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

Ok so now I have a question to add. I have a goat my father bought from a local auction available. She will kid within the next week or two I am currently testing her for CAE and should have the results in a week. Do you think I could milk her and pasturize her milk and feed it to the kids. If so how many kids could I feed this way. I guess that all depends on her milk supply and the number of kids she has. She is a Lamancha cross of some sorts. I have taken her to the vet and had her cleared and vaccinated just because she would be around my goats being that my father is my neighbor.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes you can use her milk..and if he test come back clean you dont need to pasteurize IMO...The raw milk has so many benefits that are destroyed by the process...as for how many she can feed..will depend on her production...You can add whole cows milk to hers to make up the difference


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Definitely make sure her kids are getting enough before you take the milk for these kids.


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## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks. I think I will work on milking her. Would it work if I just left her kids with her during the day and then pulled them off at night and milked her in the am?


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## m57gonefishing (Jan 26, 2012)

I would do the milk before replacer. Look at a human baby that is breast fed and one that is on formula. It's night and day as to which one is thriving. You might try calling a dairy, better yet, a raw milk dairy and ask them if they have milk they can spare to help bottle feed your goats. We did this and they gave us all their milk that came back a week from the exp date. We just froze it and thawed when needed. Free is always better and raw milk dairies are more on the animal lover side so they accomodate a lot more. Good luck!!


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

> Cow's milk from the store is pasteurized. You don't have to worry about that.


Not all Johne's bacteria are killed by pasteurization. Those little buggers are tough!!!
But commercial dairies are probably not going to keep a cow that is shedding high numbers of bacteria, because a cow that sick won't be producing much anyway. A goat kid generally has to be exposed to high numbers to be infected. Personally I don't think it's that big of a risk, but if I could find a Johne's free source, I would grab at it.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

if the babies are in good health..growing well and here we dont pull at night until 2 weeks old..then they go in a kids pen..we milk mom in the AM and they get babies the rest of the day


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## serenityfarmnm (Jan 6, 2013)

rhodalee said:


> when i had my bottle baby I used 1 gallon whole milk pour some of it out and add 1 can evaporated milk and 1 cup butter milk
> The little one didn't have any problems with it


Thats the recipe I'm using right now with my baby & He's doing great!


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## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

I have to agree with Jen, ask 100 people and get 75 different answers.

I will just throw in my experience. When I have had bottle babies I have always used a powdered mix for the babies and I have never had a problem. I use just a little less powder then it says.

I was not able to find goats milk, and I was not going to use Cows milk at all for 1. it is way to expensive for me to do that and 2. Cows milk really is not good for humans so I was not going to give it to the goats.

I think it has a lot to do with WHAT powder you use. I Used Lank O Lakes, I believe it was called A mothers match something like that.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

Johne's is an intricate disease. We use the ELISA test. You can have a strong positive cow that shows No signs of her diagnosis. And also I need to add in here too, cow 727 "Nextel" is the highest positive tested cow that's on the farm I work at. You'd never know it. She has an awesome SCC count, looks great, tall, long, correct, and is also producing currently at 112 days in 98# of milk 2xD as of the 27th of Feb. She could live out her life perfectly normal and never show us any different. But then take a cow that is a Suspect on a test sheet like cow 757 "Marieka" that was low enough not to be positive but high enough she wouldn't have passed for negative. Her last lactaction was fine, nothing spectacular. Towards the end, she started having leg problems. (Stress). Dried her up. Calved in. Disposed of her milk, just in case, as anything not negative is thrown out, along with all first calf heifer colostrum. Now this last test on the 27th of Feb, Marieka is producing 113# 2xD at 64 days in. Tested for Johne's. Came back positive. She is now starting to gimp around again, and her bag is starting to flatten. She's losing weight again. Now a cow that we know is positive, that goes down, we sell. But a cow that we know is positive, that holds her own, we keep around. We practice safe calf management for Johne's. 

I know I've been rambling, but I just wanted to make a point here:
-not all producers test for Johne's. Being it is not required by law, many people just don't even know if they have it in their herd.
-a strong positive cow can live a productive life so long as the stress level and an watchful eye keeps track of how she's doing. 
-a sick cow does have a super high SCC, but most Johne's cows don't even carry a high SCC till high stress levels and to add even further, many farmers won't cull a healthy high SCC cow, because the milk is diluted down with all the rest. The sick, weak ones eventually get sold. Many Johne's carriers, and many untested. 
-high antibody for Johne's can be shed at any point. The highest being in the colostrum, at the end of lactation when there is little milk left, and also during times of stress. 

With fluids from one animal, realistically there is no such thing as "safe" fluid. Even from mother daughter. Store bought would be safer than raw milk, but at the same time, a Johne's tested herd is even safer. You can find out that information from your local extension office. 

Ugh me and my rambling. Hope someone learns something from my post, it's a long'in!


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

I certainly learned some things! Thanks!


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## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

Wowthat is good toknow. So if you buy store milk the pasturization is for sure effective against johnes? I saw land o lakes powder at my feed store. Maybeit is safer? What do you think?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I would avoid powder replacers...babies can develop allergies to it and many can not digest it well...a lot of stories on here with babies getting very sick..better to go with whole milk from the store..


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## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

K that is what my breeder recommended as well. Do you see problems with transitioning them from goats milk to cows milk often?


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

some take switching hard, from goats milk to cows milk I would mix them..3/4 goats to 1/4 cows for a few bottles then 1/2 1/2 for a few then 1/4 goats and 3/4 cows then 100 % cows... some babies do just fine with cold turkey switch..you just need to watch for the runs or not pooping..I rather go with the slow switch to avoid either


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## rdmtnranch (Mar 4, 2013)

Ok that helps. I wasn't sure how many bottles to space it over.


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## mjs500doo (Nov 24, 2012)

rdmtnranch said:


> Wowthat is good toknow. So if you buy store milk the pasturization is for sure effective against johnes? I saw land o lakes powder at my feed store. Maybeit is safer? What do you think?


It's not necessarily that it for sure is effective against Johne's, it's more the simple fact that pooled milk is so highly diluted that your baby I highly doubt will end up with Johne's from store milk.


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