# sold a bottle baby kid - now what do I need to do???



## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

So I thought that I posted this earlier, but I can't seem to find it - moderators - if you see the other post please feel free to delete it!

My little Nigerian is due on the 28th, day 150.

I sold one of her kids this morning - not even born yet. The lady seems like a very nice lady, has caprine experience, and has a great vet that I know.

Anyway - here is my question. She had a bottle baby that was involved in an accident and killed on New Years Eve. She sounds like just a wonderful for a home. She wants to bottle raise again - sooooo,

Do I let the baby nurse for the first 24 hours to get the colostrum, or do I pull it immediately and bottle feed it the colostrum? When should the baby go to its new home at 24 or 48 hours. I want to make sure that the baby is viable, but also I do not want to bottle raise the little one either.....

What would you all do??


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I forgot - does anyone have a good contract that I can look at for bottle babies and weened babies that are sold??

Thanks much!


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## cjpup (Dec 1, 2007)

I dont have a contract but I will give you my 2 cents on the situation:

I dont ever pull babies off mom for bottle feeding nor do I ever sell anyone a bottle baby that isnt even born yet. The only time I would ever sell a bottle baby is after its born and if there is a good reason not to leave it on mom (ie. Mom dies, kid not nursing well, triplets or quads). I never pull off any kid just because a client want to bottle feed it. Kids are much healthier and (in my experience) have a better chance of living if left on mom.

If you have already made up your mind that you are going to sell it as a bottle baby even if everything is fine with leaving it on mom, then I would suggest leaveing it on mom for the first 24 hours to get the colostrum, unless you have some frozen from another doe. I wouldnt give it store bought colostrum unless you absoluetly have to. 

You also want to make sure the baby is eating really really well on the bottle before you sell him. I have had some latch on right away and others that take a week or so to really get the hang of it. Its all based on the kid. I would atleast keep it until you are sure it will eat well off the bottle.

I hope this helps.
CJ
FinePygmyPals.com


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Thank you for your help. 

Although I do believe that the baby should be with momma - I am not going to deny someone from raising a bottle baby either, as alot of breeders do that with every baby.

I definately will keep it on mom's colostrum - but should I milk her and give it in a bottle or let him nurse that from mom? I do agree that I want the baby taking the bottle really well before I give the baby to them. 

Thanks
Allison


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

I wish you luck with this Allison, but I would have to agree with CJ on this matter. Personally, to me selling something thats not "here" is like counting your chickens before they hatch. If this is something you feel is "right" in your heart, then I would let that baby be with it's mom for at least 2 -3 days. (DAH! How did I get the wrong name???)

Any how to reply to your ?....If you feel that the "buyer" is a capable enough person to take care of this baby after it leaves you...meaning experience with a bottle baby...then go with your gut. If you can be present at the birth and are able to milk the colostrum from the mom the have a bottle handy to get the baby going, like you said , I think to have it readily take the bottle would be better for it before it goes to it's new home. This way, you'd feel secure enough knowing that it was eating well before it left your care.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

There has been no money that has changed hands - so I guess maybe I should say reserved instead. 

If there is a buckling born - she wants the buckling. Her other goat is going crazy without a friend.

I would typically not do this, but I have talked with the lady and her vet, and she really does know what she is doing.

Liz - would you let the baby nurse - or give it a bottle only and keep it with me???


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## cjpup (Dec 1, 2007)

In my experience, bucklings do worse on bottles than doelings. They require a different amount of milk with extra minerals and vitamins that may not be present in milk replacers. 

I understand that you feel comfortable giving her a bottle baby (ie. talking to her vet) and that is a GREAT start but I would be more inclined to worry about the kids well being, and not just the fact that this lady wants a bottle baby.

As to your question (I know it was directed at liz but ill answer too) I would probably leave it on mom as long as you can (expecially if its male) then, I would get atleast 1/2 the money from her as a nonrefundable deposit (lets say the kid dies when you switch it over to the bottle, it would be her fault for making you take it off and therefore would need to pay for the money you've lost) Then, when you have the baby eating really well on the bottle, I would have her give you the rest of the money, nonrefundable. THe goal is to reduce your liability as well as reduce the lost revenue from lost stock. Make sense?

CJ


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

CJ - It does - very much so! I didn't think of it in the aspect of possible lost money. 

I will check in and write more in a bit - I forgot that I have to leave for an appointment - I'm going to be late!

Ut-Oh!

Talk soon
Al


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

I agree with Cj and Liz but if your cerain on what you want to do.I would pull it right away because it may be more stressful on the baby if you leave it with mom for 24-48 hours and then take it away.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

IMO (and keep in mind that I haven't had to bottle feed yet, but I have asked TONS of questions on here and have probably drove everyone else up the wall  :shock: :greengrin: ) I would leave the kid on it's mom for atleast the first 24-48 hours to make sure that he/she gets plenty of colostrum. Then, as someone on here does it... can't remember who exactly.., I would remove the kid from Mom at about 8PM and not offer it a bottle until the next morning. This way the kid should be good and hungry and shouldn't fight the bottle as much. I have got a bottle feeding schedule for Minis that Teresa gave me if you need it. And yes I would definitely bottle him yourself for a few days to be sure that he is eating well enough, because if for any reason you don't think he is doing well enough on the bottle then I would try and put him back with Mom. Of course all of this is just IMO.


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## goatnutty (Oct 9, 2007)

I would milk the doe for the colostrum.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

But if the baby fights the bottle too much then wouldn't it be possible for the baby not to get the needed amount of colostrum quick enough?


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## PACE (Oct 8, 2007)

Note, this is just my opinion, as I have never done this before, but I would pull the baby right when it was born or shortly after birth- maybe 24 hours. That way, it doesn't have a chance to bond with mom, and will completely accept people without a second thought, making it easier on all involved. And then mom won't be looking for her baby so much. If possible, I would take a baby that was part of a multiple birth, so that mom has other kid/s. Giving it its first meal in a bottle probably would make it very easy, instead of trying to convince it to take the bottle after the baby has nursed of the mother. Again, that is just what I think, and the more experienced people know the ins and outs of bottle raising.

I agree with leaving it with mom, that's what I'll do if I breed, but it's understandable how people want to bottle raise... I want to try it someday! And if the lady knows what she is doing and you are confident she will do everything necessary to raise a healthy baby, then I'm sure it would work out fine. Maybe keep it a few weeks to give it a good, strong start before allowing her to take it home.


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## cjpup (Dec 1, 2007)

HollowbeadRanch said:


> But if the baby fights the bottle too much then wouldn't it be possible for the baby not to get the needed amount of colostrum quick enough?


You hit the nail on the head girly! LOL! When you have a newborn, every second is preciouse and to waste hours or even minutes getting that baby and on a bottle takes away from its time to get colostrum from its mom, thus reducing its chances of living. If you watch your does with new borns, those babies are up and eating AT LEAST every 10 minutes for the first day. Haveing a newborn miss an hour of colostrum, could kill it, or leave it unheathly.

CJ


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## cjpup (Dec 1, 2007)

Me and PACE posted at the same time but I wanted to respond to her post too.....

Ive had to take week old brothers off mom because the mom couldnt feed them (they were a set of quads) She did great with all four but then started losing milk quickly! Anyways, the boys latched on the the bottle fairly quickly (we used the 8pm thing Brandi mentioned) and the next morning, they latched onto the bottle perfectly! Are are EXTREMELY friendly!!! They are like puppies. 

Then, at 5 weeks, mom have a horrible case of bloat and died. Which ment I had the task of convincing 5 week old girls to take a bottle. One ended up taking the bottle and is also just like a puppy and the other, refused. She never got the hang of it and would actually "steal" milk from other lactating does. She was not as firendly as all the other ones. So, at the end, I had 3 puppy dogs and 1 stand off ish one who we were later able to tame out with daily handlings etc. 

You can tame out a baby at any age, its just convincing them to go on the bottle that will be a problem. In my experience, kids are fairly willing to transfer until they get beyond there first week of being on mom. 

CJ

PS: And mom gets over it QUICKLY! expecially if there are multiples and she would still have 1 left on her.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Allison I personally would pull the kid right at birth. Less tramatic on mom as she will have bonded with the kid and call out for hours and days for him. 

I see no difference in bottle feeding a buck vs a doeling I have done both and there is no difference.

It is easier for a kid to take to a bottle if it hasn't nursed off mom in my experience. 

I think a non refundable deposit is a good idea in any situation when selling a goat.

Again for me personally I would pull the kid straight from birth and bottle feed the mom's colostrum.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

Thank you cjpup. I was just a little curious about that. Like I said, I haen't had to bottle raise one yet, but I have bottle raised MANY other animals and I know how badly they can fight a bottle.

I think I have got everything I need in the event that I have to bottle one. I have the supplies, feeding schedule, and I know what type of milk supplement I will be using (either whole cows milk or a vitamin d, evaporated milk, and buttermilk mixture that another breeder I know uses)... the only thing I am lacking is the frozen colostrum, so I am just waiting for one to have a single so I can steal a little to freeze :greengrin:

Allison, I hope everything works out well whatever you decide to do :greengrin: ! Keep us posted as to how things go!! And if you need any help I know their are plenty of people on here that have bottle raised (for one reason or another) many times before, and I am sure that they have tons of knowledge they can share with you.

This is a rough draft of what I usually right up as a receipt for babies that aren't old enough to wean. I sign it, the buyer signs it, I print out a copy after it is signed and the buyer gets the copy:

*I, Your Name , accept a Non-Refundable deposit in the amount of $$$ for # of goats, gender, & any other specifics you want to add . The total purchase amount is $$$ , and the remaining balance of $$$ is to be paid when the animal(s) is picked up. The animal(s) is to be picked up no later than Date . Holding fees will be added for each day there after.

Animal Description-Individual Price$$
Animal Description-Individual Price$$

[align=right]Seller  Your Signature 
Buyer  Buyer Signature 
Buyer Contact Info  Ph# and/or email address  
Date  Date of Agreement *[/align]

You can always omit the part about the pick up date and the holding fees if you don't have a specifc date for the animal(s) to be picked up. Like I said this is just a rough draft of what I usually use, and you can always line it up better with Microsoft Word or something. Maybe someone on here could think of something that needs to be added to it or changed. I hope it helps!


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## PACE (Oct 8, 2007)

cjpup, I understand a kid can be tamed just about any age. I got my guys at 3 months old and they were wild! At first they were unaproachable, terrified of people, but with persistence and lots of patience, they started coming to me after about a week begging for attention. They are absolute love bugs now, at age 1 1/2. I didn't use food either, just gentleness and I went at their pace. It's just the fact that I know kids and dams usually bond very strongly, and it must be easier for them to not get super attached to the mothers, then be ripped away. They can't miss something they never had, is kind of what I was saying. I agree with you about the health aspect, and you certainly have more experience in this field than I do. If they get over it quickly, that's great. I was kind of thinking of wild animals, since that's what I've bottle raised before... I volunteer at a wildlife rehab facility thst gets over 50 orphaned raccoons each spring, and the young babies always switch over easier.... now, I know raccoons/squirrels/foxes and goats are VERY different, but that was my point of reference. As to actually feeding, smaller portions very often are best, and I think that following a good schedual would work fine.


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

I would love to volunteer at a wildlife refuge like that. Do you enjoy it? I also, agree with the statement that it would be better to pull a baby from a det of twins, triplets, or even quads so the mom still has atleast one baby left to take care of.


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## fritzie (Oct 6, 2007)

i have pulled all my babies for 5 years now & i have had as many bucks as does & have never had one die,be sick or because it was bottled raised. i would pull the baby as soon as it was born that way if momma dosen't get to clean it of & bond with it it will not be as stressful on her or the baby. if you can i would milk the momma to get the colostrum. i havce had experimced people want to buy a bottle baby as soon as it is born but i never let them go till they are three days old. by then they are off colostrum(the doe will produce it for 3 days) & taken a bottle really good. i also take deposits on my unborn kids. i have a deposit right now on a buck kid that is born. if the doe that they wnt it from dosen't have a buck i will give them a different choicse of equal quality or if i do not have what they want i will refund there deposit. oh & my buck babies have always taken the bottle4 just as fast as the does.


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I have raised my share of bottle babies(boers and dairy kids) and I can say that if you feed them good and feed them right, there is no difference in size or health of a bottle baby versus a dam raised baby. In fact, my bottle raised kids were bigger than the dam raised kid. There also is no difference between bucks versus doe kids as far as bottle feeding goes.

If you pull the kids right away to bottle feed them, mom won't care about them and babies won't either. Babies are born with the natural instinct to suck, whether it be a bottle or their mom, so if you pull them right away you won't have a problem. The first day of bottle feeding I feed the kids colostrum at 2-3 hour intervals, the second day I feed them every 3-4 hours and the third day every 4 hours. Milk the mom for colostrum and save it. Also, giving the babies a microbial supplement like Fastrack at birth helps greatly with getting bacteria into the stomach.

This spring, when my herdqueen kidded, she had 2 doelings. We let her nurse them but after a week we needed extra milk so we pulled her daughters and started milking her. She was missing her daughters really bad and her daughters were missing her. 24 hours may not seem like a long time to leave the kids on but it is less stressful on mom just not to let them bond at all. Also, if you pull them right away, it is easier to get them started on the bottle than if they have been nursing for 24 hours.

The only cases that I have noticed that a doe won't care if you take her baby is if she absolutely refused that baby. The first year we had goats kidding, one mom refused the girl in a set of triplets, and she didn't care when we took her away. Another mom refused to take care of a runt and she didn't care when we took it away. This year we had a doe that refused all 3 of her kids and was just absolutely ecstatic when we took them away. Every doe is different and every doe is going to react differently when you take her kids away.

That's just my 2 cents on the subject. :wink:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

Ok - so after reading all of this this is what I am piecing together.

As long as there are multiples - pull the boy as soon as it is born, milk momma and bottle feed him away from mom for 3 days.

Day 1 - feed every 2-3 hours
Day 2 - feed every 3-4 hours
Day 3 - feed every 4 hours.

Do I only milk mom when I am going to feed him - or can I milk her more? The reason that I ask is that I may have to take him to work with me and so she will not be there to milk and I would prefer that he receives her milk then replacer or whole cows milk if able.

Oh - and how much can I expect him to eat at each feeding? He is a Nigerian Dwarf. 

Now I know that this will all be irrevelant if she throws does for me - but this is great knowledge even if something goes wrong! I bought the nipples and molassas today, I think I have everything else but the fast trac you all talk about. The feed store that I frequent did not know what that was..... where can I get it or is there something comprable to it - or is it even something that they have to have???


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## PACE (Oct 8, 2007)

HollowbeadRanch said:


> I would love to volunteer at a wildlife refuge like that. Do you enjoy it?


Yes, Brandi I love it! It is extremely rewarding to see the babies grow and get released into the wild! And cuddling, playing, and feeding them is such fun! My favorite stage is when they have their eyes open and are walking around a bit and just discovering the world. They are so curious and playful and just darling as babies... then of course they turn wild, as they are supposed to, and get released.


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## fcnubian (Oct 23, 2007)

You can milk more. I had a pygmy doe kid last year I brought the kids in the house. too cold in the barn and wasn't going to risk losing them. I went back out milked her to get the colustrum. Stored left over in the frige. Then I milked that pygmy morning and night like a dairy goat, fed the milk to the kids until weaning. 

And I do agree, there is no difference in feeding a buck verse a doe. I have fed both, the exact same thing and never had a kid sick or die. 

Id pull the kid immediately. You leave them together it'll be more stressful on the both of them.

goodluck. I LOVE bottle babies. My bottle kids are just as healthy as the dam raised kids.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

So she should give me more then enough milk for him?

She was used as a dairy goat after her last kidding for about 7 months, so she knows about milking and should be an easy milker for me!!! Let's hope!

Alright.... I am almost wondering if I should charge her more, since I am going to have to do all of this.... geeze! But at least the baby can come with me to work - Everyone is so excited about the babies being born!


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

> Then I milked that pygmy morning and night like a dairy goat


Hee Hee, My absolute best milker was my late Dolly and she was 100% pygmy! Sure they were originally bred for meat, but they still give substantial milk!

Allison, You can milk her out right after birth, enough to take a few ounces of colostrum from her for the bottle kid and still have plenty for her others, if their are only 2 kids milk out both sides equally , but not enough to take from her remaining kid. Most singles(provided she just has twins) will nurse from just one teat, leaving the other half to slow in production. If after 24 hours you see her with one side fuller than the other then milk out that side only as the remaining kid has already claimed its tap. After a few days of doing this twice a day, you should have enough to feed the kid and ship him off with some for him to be transitioned with...wether it be whole milk or a replacer. As far as the fast track...Stacey sells it, or if you want to Tractor Supply has small pouches of different probiotic powders that can be mixed with milk or water....Nutri Drench is a good thing to have on hand too, for mom and kids.

Also, remember that a does production is supply and demand, the more it's taken the more she produces. So a 2x daily milking will give you enough of a start for the baby. Good luck, hope all goes well, sounds like the "mommy to be" has a good handle on rearing a bottle baby and having her vet as a reference is a very good thing to put your mind at ease.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I have ultimate faith in the new owner - it is me I am worried about! aggghhhh! I am a nervous wreck - not only is it the first babies born here - but this too??? What was I thinking??? 

I know I will be ok - and my work is soooo supportive in all of this, and I have a canvas, fold down crate, that I can put the baby in at work right next to my desk, and I know the students will love coming in and hearing and then seeing the baby. I work at a 2 year college.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Check out this thread about fastrack - it is a great feed supplement, but of course totaly up to you. goathappy and myself sell it as well as a couple others on this board.

http://www.thegoatspot.net/viewtopic.ph ... t=fastrack

Yes you can milk her more then you need just for that one feeding and then bring what you need to work with you.

and yes I would charge the normal fee for a kid even if it is sold "dripping wet" but that is just me


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## HollowbeadRanch (Oct 5, 2007)

This is the feeding schedule that I was given and it is for minis:










The top is just notes that I put together from the questions that I asked on here. If you are going to milk the mom then you can ignore the part about whole cows milk and all. The milk mixture listed is one that another breeder gave me. She says that she has used it for a couple of years now and hasn't had a single kid get the scours or bloated. She says that the buttermilk and evaporated milk help to up the fat content and makes it closer to mom's milk. Others I have spoke with just use straight whole cows milk (as is aslo listed in the notes), so it is strictly up to the feeder. Like I said though, if you are going to milk the mom then you can ignore all of that :wink: Hope this helps :greengrin:


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't know what FT products Stacey sells, but I carry Jumpstart Gel which I give my kids when they are born and also I sell a liquid disperable FT and that works great for putting in milk.

When you pull the kid, I would milk out what you need for the day, if you are going to let the other kids nurse. They will take more than you think  they are quite the little pigs.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

ok - thank you all so much. I am feeling a little more at ease about all this, and my family is actually really excited about maybe having a baby in the house. I have a canvas colapsable crate that is really nice, that I can put straw in and he'll have plenty of room and can stay in it in the house. 

Now I know with pups and kittens, you have to stimulate them to urinate and defecate - is it the same with goats, or are they ready to go at birth? Sorry, I know it is a dumb question!


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## FarmGirl18 (Oct 5, 2007)

I agree with the others, I'd pull the kid right away and milk mom and bottle feed the colostrum. I've done it both ways and it's much easier to get the kids to take the bottle if that's all they know versus the ones that I've left on mom for a few days. The bottle is something foreign to them, because they are used to mom. And also much less stressful on both the kid and mom. Don't worry you'll do fine!


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

Goats will urinate and deficate soon after birth, so no worry there. Also just a heads up(because I freaked out about this my first time) the first poo will look like tar, black and sticky. After you get him on milk, it will turn to a orangish color.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

so the first "poo" is just like human babies. After that is it formed pellets?


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## goathappy (Oct 5, 2007)

no, not exactly. After that it is like a 'turd'(techincal term :wink: ) it will stay like that for a while until they start eating hay and grain.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

LOL! That just cracked me up when I read that! LOL!

Thanks for the warning though - cause I probobly would have freaked out not knowing!!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I forgot about the jump start gel - it is a little more expensive but all around good.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Yep like a clumpy yellow tootsie roll! Perfectly normal and a warm, damp washcloth as well as an application of vaseline or bag balm will help keep it from sticking to his butt, which it will, If you watch mom with newborns they will lick at the babies behinds, not to stimulate the "out going" but to stimulate them to eat, so when you "wash" his bum, he'll more than likely be looking for food!


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## LiddleGoteGurl (Nov 29, 2007)

You know what is so weird? I have had babies do yellow PELLETS at a day or two old. Has anyone else had that happened? It is really odd.

Good luck Allison! I want a bottle baby really, really bad right now. I have baby fever so horribly, it is sick. I get like this every year before my kids are born usually . I think I am gonna have to go steal one of my neighbor's babies.. lol. I need to keep seeing baby pics on here! Keeps me slightly sane... hehe.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

well, hopefully I will have the privilage of posting baby pics on here shortly~

Lets hope for the best~


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

LiddleGoteGurl said:


> You know what is so weird? I have had babies do yellow PELLETS at a day or two old. Has anyone else had that happened? It is really odd.


yes I have - more then once or twice seems normal to me


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## goat fever (Oct 18, 2007)

I agree with most of the people here, about pulling them from the mother right away after birth if you want bottle babies. I also love the idea of milking the mother out for the colostrum. I am the proud owner of two bouncing full grown bottle babies. Now they were not bottle babies by choice. 
They were rescued from someone who had no idea how to care for goats. Anyhow it was obvious to me that they did not nurse on their mothers milk at all. The first year my (then little guys) had a weaker immune system than our doe that was raised on her mother. We had, lice, diarrhea for no reason at times, and goat polio. All of which they did survive. Now my (little guys) are about 125 pounds full grown Sannens. They are like big dogs with hooves. I love how sweet they are. Our doe that was raised on her mother is not nearly as friendly. And we handle her everyday of her life since she was born. In fact I helped deliver this doe. So the both got the same kind of attention, but the bottle babies are much more friendly. Maybe it is just the personaility difference two. They are boys versus girls and two different breeds also. Good luck. I also would not release the buckling until he has been on the bottle for one week. They way you know that he doing ok with the bottle.


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