# Why give whiskey and caffeine?



## winky (Jun 19, 2011)

Can someone please explain to my why I keep reading (on Goatspot) about giving whiskey and caffeine to hypothermic goats? I'm a paramedic and one of the first things I learned about hypothermia was to NOT to give the patient alcohol because it's a vasodilator which will only cause the body to lose more heat and don't give caffeine because it's a diuretic which could also cause heat loss (from fluid loss). Also, I have help treat many animals for hypothermia at emergency vet clinics and never once did the vet ask for the whiskey or coffee. In both settings we would remove wet clothing, dry the patient, move them to a warm environment, apply hot packs to groin and axillary areas and start warm IV fluids. Is there something special about goats that makes this cure effective? I'm so confused?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Ive never goven the caffience so i dont kbow about that one. I have always given spirits to hypothermic kids and lambs either brandy rum scotch or whisky whatever i have at the time. I know the science.says it should not work, experience says it works very well indeed. I give 3ml glucose syrup and 10ml brandy to A hypothermic.lamb or kid and wrap them in blankets and put them on heat pads or hot water bottles or in front of a heater and i have seen them go from comatose to screaming for milk within an hour or two. I cant explain why it helps, bit i absolutely know it helps.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Isn't the caffeine supposed to "perk them up" a little so they have the energy to suckle? Remember, these are "home remedies", so it has to be something that the "average" folk will have at home. Most of us couldn't administer IV fluids. And, this is usually a kind of "last resort" type of situation. We aren't talking about a large volumn of "spirits, coffee". 

I've never actually had to do that, so I don't know how well it works. In my case, I've always just warmed the kid up, I have dunked a "dead, cold" kid in a bucket of warm water...then finished up with a blow dryer.


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## winky (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks for your reply Karen. I'm guessing that the science is right and all the other stuff you're doing to warm the baby is whats actually working not the alcohol and that the alcohol is actually making your job a little harder. I think we need a vet to weight in on this one because it seems like we're telling people to do the wrong thing here.


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## winky (Jun 19, 2011)

I know most folks couldn't do IV fluids but an alternative that is very effective would be a warm water enema. I'll best most folks could do this just fine. Actually, this would be much better than dunking them in warm water because it warms the core not the surface and you don't get the baby wet (which is like taking a few steps in the wrong direction unless they're already soaked). I think the theory behind coffee is twofold 1) to get warm fluid in the body and 2) to administer a stimulant but this is not advisable because the GI system is shut down in hypothermic patient and because it's a diuretic.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

I dont use the alcohol (dont have it in the house) but I will use a sugar (honey, gateraid or other sugar drink) and coffee - it alone has saved goats.

Remember goats are different then humans because they are ruminants. 

I never know the science of it all but I know what works and I stick with it.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I dont know why it works either but it helps. The mix I use is mixed in thirds; coffee, whiskey & molasses. Only a couple cc oral. Only if kid is letahgic or doe is worn out from kidding.
Please, when you have to dunk a cold kid in water you wrap him in plastic bag with head exposed so the body doesnt get wet.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

winky said:


> Thanks for your reply Karen. I'm guessing that the science is right and all the other stuff you're doing to warm the baby is whats actually working not the alcohol and that the alcohol is actually making your job a little harder. I think we need a vet to weight in on this one because it seems like we're telling people to do the wrong thing here.


Perhaps i need to make myself clearer. It is through experience i know that the alcohol added to all the other things i do, DOES make a difference. I am positive it helps because i have seen it with my own eyes. I advise people based on what i know, through experience, works. I donthink a vet will be much help, just like everyone else they all have their own opinions and preferred methods, drugs etc. You can ask three vets for mastitis treatment and get three different answers


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Human and goats just plain different. It's kinda like comparing apples to oranges and how would you like it if I started treating you how I would treat a sick dog or cat? You wouldn't like it because the meds and ways of doing things are different. 

Whiskey is used to dialate the blood vessels once you get them into a warm area. It draws out the cold blood being kept in their core. Coffee perks them up enough say that they have the energy to suckle or or eat to keep going. 

The Karo gives them sugar their body is probably lacking to perk them up as well and correct any hypoglycemia. 

This mixed has perked up and saved many a goat for me. So out in the field it WORKS. I would never suggest a remedy that made things harder or didn't work. 

Until you have used this mixture on a goat, and have experience with it, please watch when you criticize others.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Interesting points on both sides. I will be talking to my vet about this next time I see him. I am sure like stated that there are a ton of different answers but do wonder what he will say. 

I think that this does bring up a good point... all advice given here on the forum is not vet advice (this is stated a few spots) hopefully it is given from personal experience.. it is not always right but has worked in a certain instance sometimes many times. We are not vets and people must remember that they are getting experience advice which in many cases is better than if not equal to vet experience (not many vets have the experience with ruminants to know what to do)

I have never used these methods but have never had a hyperthermic kid that was that far gone. 

We do need to try and be as clear or descriptive as possible like with dunking the kids in water I never would have thought of putting them in a plastic bag I assumed they meant dunk the kid right in the water. ** I have heard to do this with kids still wet with birthing fluid if they are found weak and or hyperthermic to bring up body temp. 

Can't wait to hear what my vet and a few others I talk to about goat stuff think for their opinions.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I need to be more clear about the "dunking", the kid is in a fairly heavy duty garbage bag, not your usual grocery plastic bag. 
The water should be comfortably hot. Submerge kid with head exposed for a couple of minutes. If he gets wet use blow dryer, massage vigorosly.
Then put in box with heating pad.

Do NOT give kid the mix or colostrum until temp is above 100.
If you stick your finger in mouth & it's cold do not give anything.

Time is of the essense here. I once had cold siblings at 3 days old. By the time #1 was treated and in box #2 expired while working on him.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

nancy d said:



> I need to be more clear about the "dunking", the kid is in a fairly heavy duty garbage bag, not your usual grocery plastic bag.
> The water should be comfortably hot. Submerge kid with head exposed for a couple of minutes. If he gets wet use blow dryer, massage vigorosly.
> Then put in box with heating pad.
> Do NOT give kid the mix or colostrum until temp is above 100.
> ...


Thanks for the great explanation Nancy!! Really good info to have if ever needed. Do you think that like I had heard if the kid was still wet with birthing fluid you would dip without the bag?


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

Some people dunk with bags and some dunk without. Heating the kid up is the main issue at that point because a cold kid is soon to be a dead kid. 

Honestly here. I KNOW more than my vet and my vet will ask my advice. Even the great tufts has asked me questions and worked with me. 

I know both sides of the coin. I have worked as an EMT, my mothers is a nurse and I did go for some nursing school. I have also own livestock for many years and when I give information I give information that I know has worked for me in the past. If I am unsure of the treatment I let people know so. I don't know everything but I do know a lot. I try to make myself clear but we have to understand this IS a forum full of goat owners, not a veterinary board to get free licensed vet advise. It is posted in several areas that we are not vets and not to held liable if an animal dies. 

Until you have worked both sides of the coin please learn not to judge and think your way is the best way or say other peoples ways are incorrect.


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## mommaB (Oct 1, 2009)

Funny, I just recommended this to a friend the other day. She came home from work and went to check on a set of triplets. She found what she thought was a dead one. She picked it up and as she was carrying it to the trash, it moved, and squeeked. So she rushed it to the house, tubed this treatment, and put the kid in warm water. As soon as the kids temp was up she offered a bottle, and wouldn't ya know it........the kid took right off.
If I remeber correctly it's temp was down to like 89.?? and as MOST of us know that is BAD! 
She is currently doing very well, happy healthy, thriving!

I am also in the medical field, and although science doesn't support this treatment in humans, and I guess in a vet's office, bottom line is........it WORKS!! Seen it with my own 2 eyes!!


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## winky (Jun 19, 2011)

Yikes! I didn't mean to offend anyone. I was just hoping someone could explain how goats are so different than other animals or point me to some actual science that shows this works.

Here's a short article on rewarming hpothermic calves (http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/1 ... led-calves) comparing different techniques (including alcohol). This was done in a controlled setting and these poor calves were subjected to artificial cooling which I'll bet was distressing for them. That's very sad but it's a good way to rule out all those other variables so that we end up with good science. Looks like the alcohol didn't prolong the hypothermia... but it didn't help either. Also looks like the warm water immersion works faster.

I think we learn by asking questions and questioning what we think we already know. If that's inappropriate for this forum I am truly very sorry.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

Winkey that IS what this forum is about. We are all here to learn and ask questions.  

Momma B so glad that worked for your friends kid and great that she is doing so well now!!


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## RunAround (Feb 17, 2008)

winky said:


> Yikes! I didn't mean to offend anyone. I was just hoping someone could explain how goats are so different than other animals or point me to some actual science that shows this works.
> 
> Here's a short article on rewarming hpothermic calves (http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/1 ... led-calves) comparing different techniques (including alcohol). This was done in a controlled setting and these poor calves were subjected to artificial cooling which I'll bet was distressing for them. That's very sad but it's a good way to rule out all those other variables so that we end up with good science. Looks like the alcohol didn't prolong the hypothermia... but it didn't help either. Also looks like the warm water immersion works faster.
> 
> I think we learn by asking questions and questioning what we think we already know. If that's inappropriate for this forum I am truly very sorry.


Being as these are goats we are talking about, yes, the ways to heat them compared to a human is different. Some producers are able to give their animals warm IV fluids _IF_ they can find a vein and the IV stays good. But most producers are not trained for this. SO the next best thing for the animal is for the owner to use whatever they have on hand in hopes of saving their goat. Coffee, whiskey and Karo are things most people have on hand.

As you know, studies in goats are few and far between, so there has never been a study on this. Most goat things you just learn about on the fly. All med doses are come to by trail and error as well. Studies on goats are few and far between since they aren't considered important like humans. Also, if you try to warm up a human or treat a human and they don't like it or the die from it then they can slap you with a lawsuit. So, thats why there is constant studies into human health care. They want everyone to go by the book so no one gets sued. And you will notice their "rules" change all the time.

Now why would this mix work good in a ruminant vs a single stomached animal...? Well a goat regulates body temp slightly by their rumen. So anything to get it going again(coffee) is good. No rumen movement always equals a dead and cold goat. Karo is great because the animal usually has low sugar if they are found that cold and weak. The Whiskey helps to dialate blood vessels and get the cold blood out and the warm blood into the core.

And yes, this board is for asking questions, but when you post a question about something that has proven to work in the field, and then say it doesn't... well your going to get a topic that could get a little hot.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

I will add here that in my case the kids were just born...still wet...so I didn't feel the need to worry about getting her "wetter", lol. It only took a couple of minutes of the warm bath before she was warmed up and "kicking". Then she got a vigorous rub down with a towel and blown dry. All is well, we bred her this year.


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