# Linear Appraisal Questions



## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Hi all! 
I've been trying to do a lot of research into LA and I'd like to try it for my small herd of two, but preferably after they have kidded, if one of my does is even pregnant. What exactly is the process? I know LA was cancelled due to COVID, and it may be cancelled again, but I don't really have the herd to do it now anyways.  Just wondering what types of fees there are, how LA is done, etc. 
Thank you in advance!


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

Your does have to be in milk to be appraised- if not they will be excused. I think the fee is $35 for your herd to enroll plus $8.50 per goat. Something like that. When you sign up, ADGA will mail you a list of all goats registered in your name. You mark any that will not be participating and mail the sheet back. All does in milk have to be appraised unless they are aged or were appraised the previous year. Dry, sick, injured, pregnant, etc does will need a vet note to excuse them. Bucks are optional. 

When you sign up you will have to decide if you will be a host herd (involves an extra $200 fee) or if you will transport to another herd. With just 2 does, you would find another herd to transport to. 

As far as the actual appraisal, the appraiser will first check the tattoos (so make sure they're present and legible!) and make sure they match registration papers. I have ND, so they also measure the height. Rump width is measured as well. Those are the only actual measurements they take. The appraiser will have you walk the the goat away from him and then back towards him on a level surface so he can properly assess her. Then he'll go down the list of traits (you can find it on ADGA's website, or check out the appraisal information for any goat on ADGA Genetics) and give her a score for each one. For example, 25 for rear leg angulation, 30 for rear udder arch, etc. It's all pretty quick and it's up to you to know the significance of each number, although the appraiser will give you a very brief rundown beforehand. You will get a copy of the sheet though, so you'll be able to research what those scores mean later when you're not on the spot! The appraiser will finish with the "big four" and the number you see on the final appraisal score. Those last 4 grades are for general appearance, Dairy strength, body capacity, and mammary, followed by the final score. That's about all there is to it!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Calistar said:


> Your does have to be in milk to be appraised- if not they will be excused. I think the fee is $35 for your herd to enroll plus $8.50 per goat. Something like that. When you sign up, ADGA will mail you a list of all goats registered in your name. You mark any that will not be participating and mail the sheet back. All does in milk have to be appraised unless they are aged or were appraised the previous year. Dry, sick, injured, pregnant, etc does will need a vet note to excuse them. Bucks are optional.
> 
> When you sign up you will have to decide if you will be a host herd (involves an extra $200 fee) or if you will transport to another herd. With just 2 does, you would find another herd to transport to.
> 
> As far as the actual appraisal, the appraiser will first check the tattoos (so make sure they're present and legible!) and make sure they match registration papers. I have ND, so they also measure the height. Rump width is measured as well. Those are the only actual measurements they take. The appraiser will have you walk the the goat away from him and then back towards him on a level surface so he can properly assess her. Then he'll go down the list of traits (you can find it on ADGA's website, or check out the appraisal information for any goat on ADGA Genetics) and give her a score for each one. For example, 25 for rear leg angulation, 30 for rear udder arch, etc. It's all pretty quick and it's up to you to know the significance of each number, although the appraiser will give you a very brief rundown beforehand. You will get a copy of the sheet though, so you'll be able to research what those scores mean later when you're not on the spot! The appraiser will finish with the "big four" and the number you see on the final appraisal score. Those last 4 grades are for general appearance, Dairy strength, body capacity, and mammary, followed by the final score. That's about all there is to it!


Awesome, thank you so much!!!
So..our two does are not actually under our herd name, since we bought them both from another farm. We have their certificate of transfer to us. Could we still get their LA scores? I know their previous owner did LA, so I'll have to ask her if she is a host herd or not. I'd definitely be willing to cover some of the cost of LA if she is a host. 

Dairy Goat Linear Appraisal (betterhensandgardens.com)
This article shows a breakdown of the LA scores and such, but I can't seem to understand exactly what is 'perfect.' Obviously a 45 points on teat placement isn't good, so does that mean 25 is perfect? Just wondering exactly how the score is calculated. Thank you so much for your help!
:ty:


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

You will have to transfer them into your name. They don't have to have your herd name, but you do have to be the owner (unless it's a lease situation.) You'd need them transferred into your name anyway in order to register their kids. 

The "perfect" score is going to vary. Usually it's somewhere in the middle, but not always. There's a chart somewhere that lists the ideal scores, but it's a range and not a specific number. I'll see if I can find it. It's not an official ADGA chart or anything, but it helps give a ballpark. For something like rear leg angulation, 25 is going to be close to ideal, but for something like rear udder arch, you'd want your number to be on the higher side. A rear udder arch of 25 is okay but not amazing- you might be shooting for something closer to, say, 35. But if your rear leg angulation is 35 then you've got some bad legs. So the ideal is not going to be the same for each trait. That would be too easy


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

The appraisers are usually amazing in explaining scoring. If you have only two to appraise, I would try to find a larger herd to go to. There are not many appraisers vs. herds that want to be appraised, I figure a large back up this season. There is is minimum number of goats that merit a "stop",, so you will have to reach out to a larger herd, or pay the difference in the number appraised (I think 16 but I may be off here). Go to the ADGA website and that will walk you through the process. Our stop was cancelled this year, so hopefully getting one in 2021. Nothing is guaranteed though.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Calistar said:


> You will have to transfer them into your name. They don't have to have your herd name, but you do have to be the owner (unless it's a lease situation.) You'd need them transferred into your name anyway in order to register their kids.
> 
> The "perfect" score is going to vary. Usually it's somewhere in the middle, but not always. There's a chart somewhere that lists the ideal scores, but it's a range and not a specific number. I'll see if I can find it. It's not an official ADGA chart or anything, but it helps give a ballpark. For something like rear leg angulation, 25 is going to be close to ideal, but for something like rear udder arch, you'd want your number to be on the higher side. A rear udder arch of 25 is okay but not amazing- you might be shooting for something closer to, say, 35. But if your rear leg angulation is 35 then you've got some bad legs. So the ideal is not going to be the same for each trait. That would be too easy


Great, thank you! They are both registered under my name.  I would definitely love to see a chart! Thank you again for all your help!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

goatblessings said:


> The appraisers are usually amazing in explaining scoring. If you have only two to appraise, I would try to find a larger herd to go to. There are not many appraisers vs. herds that want to be appraised, I figure a large back up this season. There is is minimum number of goats that merit a "stop",, so you will have to reach out to a larger herd, or pay the difference in the number appraised (I think 16 but I may be off here). Go to the ADGA website and that will walk you through the process. Our stop was cancelled this year, so hopefully getting one in 2021. Nothing is guaranteed though.


Thank you! I'm not sure exactly how many goats she has, but I think we might just have 16 put together.  If you have to have a minimum of 16 goats, she probably is already going to another host herd.


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

This is the chart I was thinking of. I didn't make it, it came from someone on Facebook so I can take no credit:


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## AlabamaGirl (Jun 18, 2020)

Calistar said:


> 35 then you've got some bad legs. So the ideal is not going to be the same for each trait. That would be too easy


About that... Why would the ADGA call for confirmation that is bad for their health/well-being? Especially if traits like a super high medial and sickled hocks are bad?

Wondering because lots of people caution against such traits


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

AlabamaGirl said:


> About that... Why would the ADGA call for confirmation that is bad for their health/well-being? Especially if traits like a super high medial and sickled hocks are bad?
> 
> Wondering because lots of people caution against such traits


I'm not sure what you mean there. ADGA isn't calling for poor conformation.

If the confusion is in my example, maybe I should have used a more extreme number. The appraiser last year said that his ideal number for rear leg angulation was 26. So everyone is going to have their own preference but they should all be close. Also keep in mind that the chart I posted is not from ADGA. The numbers were composed by another breeder, although I think she came up with those numbers after discussing traits with an ADGA appraiser.


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## AlabamaGirl (Jun 18, 2020)

Calistar said:


> I'm not sure what you mean there. ADGA isn't calling for poor conformation.
> 
> If the confusion is in my example, maybe I should have used a more extreme number. The appraiser last year said that his ideal number for rear leg angulation was 26. So everyone is going to have their own preference but they should all be close. Also keep in mind that the chart I posted is not from ADGA. The numbers were composed by another breeder, although I think she came up with those numbers after discussing traits with an ADGA appraiser.


Thanks for the clarification, I got a little mixed up.


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## CBPitts (Jan 29, 2020)

You can look up your does previous LA scores on the adga genetics sites. Go to pedigree at the top, put in the does registration number, when her name comes up you click on it. Once her pedigree is up go the left side and click Linear History.

The screen pics are of a doe of mine. This is an awesome site for a lot of reasons but the biggest for me is to improve breeding programs. When you use the LA numbers on a planned pedigree it'll show you the bucks daughters averages and you can "see" in numerical form what he improves. Milk values are on there too.

https://www.adgagenetics.org/Default.aspx


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

CBPitts said:


> You can look up your does previous LA scores on the adga genetics sites. Go to pedigree at the top, put in the does registration number, when her name comes up you click on it. Once her pedigree is up go the left side and click Linear History.
> 
> The screen pics are of a doe of mine. This is an awesome site for a lot of reasons but the biggest for me is to improve breeding programs. When you use the LA numbers on a planned pedigree it'll show you the bucks daughters averages and you can "see" in numerical form what he improves. Milk values are on there too.
> 
> https://www.adgagenetics.org/Default.aspx


Thank you. I was actually just doing all of this yesterday. lol
I was able to trace back pretty far to find the LA scores of a lot of goats in one of my doe's lines.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

What shocks me most, is that despite those LA scores, this is the doe Blackjack and Cocochanel produced. lol She has an awful pocket on her fore udder, and I don't have much nice to say about her other than that she is super sweet, and very goofy.  She's only roughly 17 1/4 - 17 3/4 inches tall at the whithers too. She's little.









She looks a bit better in this photo.


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## Oliveoil (Sep 3, 2019)

Sometimes lines just don't cross well and it may the breeding may not have been a good match (ie same strengths/weaknesses)


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## CBPitts (Jan 29, 2020)

Yeah, that happens. I bred a really nice doe with a 2yo LA of VEEV 89 to a stellar buck with a bunch of daughters appraised in the 90 to 92’s and got the worst front ends I’d ever seen as well as a huge pocket in the fore udder. Every generation after that still had the same front end assembly too.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Going forward for 2021, make sure you are signed up with ADGA so they can update you as to LA scoring. They are up in the air as to how they will proceed. I have emails coming to me, so that is a help - signed up last year and so everything cancelled - sigh......


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

goatblessings said:


> Going forward for 2021, make sure you are signed up with ADGA so they can update you as to LA scoring. They are up in the air as to how they will proceed. I have emails coming to me, so that is a help - signed up last year and so everything cancelled - sigh......


Thank you! I really hope they do it this year!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

When doing LA, should we allow their udders to fill up (not milking the day/night before) like you would in a show? 
Thank you!


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## Calistar (Jan 16, 2017)

CaramelKittey said:


> When doing LA, should we allow their udders to fill up (not milking the day/night before) like you would in a show?
> Thank you!


Yes, the udder needs to be full for a proper evaluation. My appraisal session was at 2 in the afternoon, so I had to get up at 2 am to milk that morning. That was not my favorite lol.


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Calistar said:


> Yes, the udder needs to be full for a proper evaluation. My appraisal session was at 2 in the afternoon, so I had to get up at 2 am to milk that morning. That was not my favorite lol.


Thank you!


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