# Help! New baby doesn't look good.....



## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

Ok, long story short, one of my other does that was doe went into labor last night. I missed the birth by I'm guessing 30 min judging by what was happening when I came out. I found 5 kids, and this was the only living one! I also found another dead kid later on (3 of them were still in the sac, the other two were out). 6 babies?! I didn't think that was possible! Did I miscount? Were there 5? This is my 3rd kidding with this doe, and she's always had 3 and without issue. So anyway, The baby seemed ok today, but now she is standing there hanging her head. Is this ok? Is she just tired? Or do I need to intervene? I was trying to leave her with mama since she was the only one left, but now I'm nervous I might lose her too. Thanks!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is not good. Did you make sure she was truly nursing? Did you give B Complex and selenium? Did you make sure she pooped? Are you sure no other goat could have kidded?


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

She just went to the bathroom and it was white/yellow


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm positive that my other one didn't give birth, so they all had to come from one. I've seen her go up to nurse, but not actually latch on


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If she has not eaten since born, you need to milk mom and bottle feed. She is going to die if you don't get something into her. She is going downhill from no colostrum.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

I just milked her and trying to give her a bottle now


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

I gave her milk using the syringe because I couldn't get her to latch on the bottle. How much should I be giving her at a time?


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## Alleysalley02 (Jun 25, 2015)

2-4 oz. every 2-3 hours. maybe try every 5 hours


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## Alleysalley02 (Jun 25, 2015)

Anytime you think would work for her


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

What does she weigh?


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

From the best I could tell (she wouldn't stay still in the "seat" to weigh her), she's about 1.5-2, but I'm going to try again in a bit to make sure that's right.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

She is pooping, which seems like a good sign. It's all white. So hopefully that means she did nurse today at some point


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That is not good. What is her temp? It needs to be 101 to 103.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

she's snuggled up in a towel to make sure she's good and warm, and she got a few good swallows of milk from the syringe. So now I just wait and see how she does? Is there anything else I should be doing? I can't imagine what happened that all these babies died and she's struggling. This is my third season kidding, but I'm still a "newbie" compared to all the pros on here, so I am so thankful for all the help and advice! I really hope I can get this little girl to fight!


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

I'll try and get a temp now. In my haste before I couldn't find where I put the goat thermometer, so I am going to search again.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

Temp is good, 102.4


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

That temp is very important.


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## ShyAnne7 (Nov 28, 2015)

How is baby this morning? Hope all is well.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

She's doing ok, seems stronger at times than others. She's still been having A LOT of this really foul smelling white/yellowish poop. She won't try to eat when I feed her still, so I have only been able to get one syringe at a time in her (which is 2 Tablespoons). I'm wondering, should I try and put her with mom for a little while? Or just keep her separated still until I Know she's out of the woods?


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

I'm no expert, but if you can only get 2 Tbsp at a time in her, then you may need to feed more often. She has minimal nutrition and volume requirements just to stay alive, to say nothing of getting stronger and beginning to grow. This is all based on weight. The only personal experience I have with this was with my premie son years ago. He was too weak to nurse, so med staff tube fed him for two weeks to be sure he got what he needed. Today he's a strapping 30 year old and the joy of my life. Can you get a "weak kid syringe" to tube her? Otherwise, up the frequency to be sure she gets her full 24-hr needs. I'll look up the formula and post it -- HappyBleats posted it in a recent thread for another situation. Hang in there!!!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Here's the formula I found on www.tennesseemeatgoats.com.

*Weigh the newborn. Convert its weight into ounces. Calculate 10% to 12% of total bodyweight in ounces, divide that number by four feedings, and feed that amount over a 24 hour period.* Example: An eight-pound kid weight converted to ounces is 128 ounces. 8 x 16 oz - 128 oz. Multiple 128 oz by 12% = 15.4 ounces. Let's be generous and round up to 16 oz, Divide 16 oz by 4 feedings = 4 oz per feeding. Recognize that this amount varies by sex and number of kids in the litter and is higher for heavier newborns. Check the kid for a full tummy by placing it on the ground on its feet, supporting its own weight. Stand over it, facing the same direction that the kid is facing. Place your fingers in front of the back legs on both sides of its tummy. The tummy should feel firm, not hard and not squishy. If the formula provided above doesn't accomplish this, adjust it upward a bit until you achieve the needs of that particular kid. This is not a written-in-stone rule; common sense must prevail. The amount of milk changes as the kid grows, and the percentage of milk to body weight increases too. But by about two to three weeks of age, the kid is much more physically active and eating some solid food, so the chance of over-feeding on milk is lessened. (SOURCE: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/overfeedingnewbo.html)


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

top_goat said:


> I'm no expert, but if you can only get 2 Tbsp at a time in her, then you may need to feed more often. She has minimal nutrition and volume requirements just to stay alive, to say nothing of getting stronger and beginning to grow. This is all based on weight. The only personal experience I have with this was with my premie son years ago. He was too weak to nurse, so med staff tube fed him for two weeks to be sure he got what he needed. Today he's a strapping 30 year old and the joy of my life. Can you get a "weak kid syringe" to tube her? Otherwise, up the frequency to be sure she gets her full 24-hr needs. I'll look up the formula and post it -- HappyBleats posted it in a recent thread for another situation. Hang in there!!!


SELF-CORRECTION: I did some calculations and 2 Tbsp is 1 ounce. So based on this and "the formula" -- you seem to be getting the right amount into her for her current weight. Sorry if my comment above confuses readers!


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

Thank you! I am going to try and get a tube feeder today so that I can get more in her because now it's a mess and she loses a lot of it out the sides of her mouth. The poop is really concerning me because there's a lot of it for one thing, so I don't want her dehydrated, and it is soooooooo foul smelling, seems worse than it should be. I don't remember a bottle baby that I've raised ever having it so bad.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

6 kids is very uncommon but quite possible! I'm so sorry the others did not survive. Was she full-term? How is the dam? She was likely too busy cleaning the first few to get them all cleaned off, but it is unusual that the amniotic sacs did not break during the birth. Have you supplemented with selenium? Tough sacs is a sure sign of selenium deficiency. 

Does the kid make any effort to latch on to the dam? Body temperature and small frequent feedings will be imperative for her. But the smelly white poop is very concerning. This almost always means E-coli. It is very early on for e-coli but possible, it usually is a problem at 3-5 days old. I highly recommend you get to a feed store and find the red liquid in the Pig section that is called ScourChek or ScourHalt. It is usually in a pump bottle. This will address the ecoli. B-complex daily as well as one dose of selenium should also really help this kid! Do you have B Complex and Selenium gel or BOSE?

Do not allow the kid to lay on its side, upright/sternal is important. I'm not sure what the temperatures are where you live, if she can manage with her dam, even if you have to go feed her every 3 hours, then I would try leaving them together for the psychological benefits. But if you feel she is too weak, but keep her inside.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

White poop can also mean undigested milk.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All good advice.

Check momma's milk is it OK, no mastitis ect? If the milk is bad or toxic, it can effect the kid or kill.
If that is the case you will have to supplement feed. 

If her milk is OK, get her kid onto the teat. First milk out some so it is easier for the kid to latch on. Open the kids mouth and squirt a little bit into the kids mouth, then tickle the tail head area. Repeat until the kid gets the idea and finds it.
Having the kid a bit hungry helps.

If you are to keep the kid with momma, have a heat lamp out, if the weather is cold, go out every 2 hours and make sure the kid has a full belly and put her onto the teat. You will have to go to the other teat too, and milk momma out when needed.

Does the kid have a sucking reflex at all?

I agree, give Bo-Se, nutradrench ect.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Have her teeth erupted thru the gums? I read that it can be difficult for the kid to latch onto the teat if the teeth haven't erupted. Just another spoon in the "can she nurse" pot. 

Highly recommend scour halt. good stuff. Works fast.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

I live in south Florida, so the temp is definitely not an issue for us here. I put her out with mom for now so that they could have some time together because mama was really stressed out. I don't have the selenium, but I will stop today and get some to give her. Her temp has remained normal, so that gives me hope, but I am afraid of dehydration because of the poop. I have seen her "mouth" the teat, but not actually latch on and feed. Oh and mom seems to be fine, though I am still beyond shocked at how many she had. And I hate thinking that I could have saved 3 kids if only I had been there to break the sac. (I stayed with her the entire night except for those 2 hours when apparently she gave birth, and I know I missed it by minutes because all the babies were still wet and her afterbirth hadn't passed, ughhhh!) She has loose minerals, but is there something additional that she should be having that would help with the selenium?


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

Also, none of the feed stores around me carry Bo-Se, only nutradrench (I'm going to give her some of that) but would you suggest I have Bo-Se on hand for the future? Or is nutradrench just as effective? I can order it online.


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

BoSe is Rx only in the US. You'll have to get it from your vet. But some on here use a selenium paste, I believe...not sure if you can get that non-Rx or not as I've never used it.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

Ahhh ok, thanks that explains it. Boy I feel like there's still so much I don't know, and I've had my little herd for a few years now. I guess (knock on wood) I haven't had too many health issues with them and that's why.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Glad momma's milk is good. Teach her baby the teat so you know for sure she is nursing. Some can't figure it out or momma may move just as they are grabbing it. It is important the kid nurses.

I recommend getting a fecal sample and take it in have it tested, so you will know how to treat it to save her.

Prayers sent.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

Sorry so many questions, but should I give her the ScourHalt in addition to the nutridrench? Wasn't sure if both would help/hurt if both given in the same day. Thank you all so much!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would hold off on the scour halt for now. You need to figure out if she is getting enough milk and if she is digesting it ok.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

Here's how things are looking today: I put her out with mom yesterday for a bit to see how she did. After a time back there, I found her back end was caked in sticky, white/yellow, smelly, gross poop, so I took her in and got her all cleaned up and dry/warm and gave her nutridrench. She was still pretty "lacking" in energy it seemed. I went back out to watch her with mom, and she's definitely attempting to nurse, but every time she finds it, she puts her mouth on it for a second, but no sucking, and then she's not interested. I've tried holding her up to mom and trying to put the teat in her mouth, but mostly she seemed uninterested. I kept her in with me last night, and fed with syringe every 2-3 hours (she wouldn't latch onto the bottle either). Even when she's in with me though and after a couple tsp feedings, she still seems lethargic and just not how a normal kid should be acting. I can't understand why she isn't latching on and sucking, and I I'm thinking this is her whole problem, that she's not eating enough, and what she is eating is going right out of her. Her temp has remained normal though, so happy about that.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Did you ever give her B Complex and BoSe? How much milk are you actually getting into her? She may not be getting enough milk to get strong. If she didn't get any milk the first 12 hours of life, that can be hard to come back from.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I highly recommend a vet look at her. Test her stool.
She may need a Bo-Se shot and if she has a poop issues, it may be keeping her down along with not getting enough to eat.

When you feed her with the syringe,at the back corner of her mouth, put your index finger or pinky in her mouth, to mimic a teat. As you slowly plunge the milk at the same time, slightly move your hand in and out but yet still leaving your finger inside her mouth. Have someone help you and tickle her tailhead area at the same time. You want to get that suck reflex. It may take time but it helps to mimic a teat. Selenium deficiency can stop her from that. I am concerned for her. If you want her to still be on momma, you can't keep them separated for too long. So go out and squirt a little momma's milk in her mouth and keep trying there as well to get her to latch on.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

She seems to have slowed down on the pooping problems (fingers crossed it stays this way!). The only thing any of the feed stores in my area had was Nuteidrench, so that's what I gave her. Should I give her more every few days? Or see how she does first? I usually bottle feed and only leave one kid with mama (she's always had 3 in the past) for her own psychological well being, so as much as I want to keep this baby and put her on a bottle, I feel so bad taking my girl Mellie's only surviving kid. That's why I keep trying to give them time together, but still supplement her as needed. I lost a kid once before because I waited too long to intervene, and I didn't want to chance that. My hubby has been keeping an eye on her today while I was at work and he said she is still making a valiant effort to nurse, just only latches on for a second or two and then off she goes (and that's only about every 3rd time she looks for it). So I'm pretty confident that she is getting Something from mama, but how much? That's my concern. She is teeny tiny though, so I suppose a little goes a long way! Hopeful thoughts that she gets better and stronger every day!


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## top_goat (Sep 16, 2014)

Chessa said:


> ...when I feed her still, so I have only been able to get one syringe at a time in her (which is 2 *Tablespoons*). I'm wondering, should I try and put her with mom for a little while? Or just keep her separated still until I Know she's out of the woods?
> 
> fed with syringe every 2-3 hours (she wouldn't latch onto the bottle either). Even when she's in with me though and after *a couple tsp* feedings,


Chessa -- can you verify again how much you're feeding? Earlier you said "tablespoons", just now you said "teaspoons". 2 tablespoons = 1 ounce. A couple of those 4 times a day should be getting her stronger. Teaspoons in another matter altogether...definitely not enough!!! If you are indeed feeding in teaspoons, that could be the source of her problem...she's not getting enough. Please verify what you're feeding and make adjustments if needed. If feed is right on, and you've supplemented as others have suggested, it might be time for a vet check. Good luck!

Also, do you know how to check to see that her tummy is full after feeding? full but not too full...?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Nutradrench can be used daily until feeling better, or the goat is stronger, to as needed.


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## Chessa (Jan 9, 2014)

Sorry, I did mess that up! It is tablespoons. (I haven't gotten much sleep lately! Haha) But, good news!! She is looking soooo much better today! I kept her in with me yesterday and kept her on small feedings every 2.5-3 hours through the night, and also another dose of the nutradrench, and as of this afternoon she hasn't had any diarrhea for the past 12 hours or more and she was actually perky and even jumping around trying to play a little! I am so thankful. I have her spending time with mama now, and she was really excited to be with her and she's trying to nurse much much better now that she has the strength. And her mama is awesome at being "mommy", so she was nothing but happy to have her back and get right back to nursing her. Thank you everyone for all the great advice! I am just hoping things keep getting better from here. ️


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