# Copper deficiency? (with picture)



## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

I need some advise here please!  
This is our 5-6 year old Alpine. We just bought her last October and the previous owner was guessing her age. Anyway, he was using copper sulfate with his goats. When she came to us she was completely black (where she should be black) and now her coat has really turned that copper-y color that is an indicator of too little copper. I first noticed the longer hair on her back turning, then next her flank, and now it is moving to her shoulder. In November (on the 23rd to be exact) I stopped the daily copper sulfate and gave her a copper bolus- one, 4g bolus. But she still doesn't seem to be recovering from doing that, and seems to be getting even more red. Thoughts? Advise? I am wondering if I'm feeding too much alfalfa and it's interfering with the copper? Our goats get grass hay and alfalfa and then probably 1/2lb of chaffhaye per head. The grass hay and alfalfa are fed at about the same level. I just sent a fecal sample to UC Davis and should have those results this next week. 
As another note, she is also pregnant and due to kid around the first part of February.

I appreciate your advise.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

How much copper sulfate are you giving? Are you giving dolomite along with it?


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

Suzanne_Tyler said:


> How much copper sulfate are you giving? Are you giving dolomite along with it?


 I stopped the sulfate on 11/23 when I did the bolus. I was giving 1/4tsp per head per day along with 1 tsp dolomite. That was what the man we bought her from had done for the past few years with her.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Does she have a loose mineral that is high in copper? They really need a constant supply on copper(and other minerals) instead of bolusing a few times a year.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Interesting. I'd like to see what the experts say on this one. Following  Btw, she is a pretty doe.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Ranger1 said:


> Does she have a loose mineral that is high in copper? They really need a constant supply on copper(and other minerals) instead of bolusing a few times a year.


Ha! Hadn't even thought of that...just assumed  Good call!


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

If she were mine, I would give her 8 grams of copper bolus tomorrow and wait 2 more months to see. (With loose minerals available)


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

Ranger1 said:


> Does she have a loose mineral that is high in copper? They really need a constant supply on copper(and other minerals) instead of bolusing a few times a year.


Yes! She has copper in her grain mix. I feed the Scratch and Peck Goat Feed https://www.scratchandpeck.com/shop/goat-feed/
I feed 1lb per day. It has 30ppm min and 40ppm max. Is that too low?


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

I have a loose mineral I can give her (that is specific to goats) but I hadn't started it yet because I was worried about excess selenium. She got the selenium gel dose almost 2 weeks ago and I will give her another dose tomorrow. That was at the advise of Fiasco Farms (for pre kidding). I was going to put out the loose minerals after she kidded. Should I just do it now?
Or should I just add back in the copper sulfate?


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

Ranger1 said:


> Does she have a loose mineral that is high in copper? They really need a constant supply on copper(and other minerals) instead of bolusing a few times a year.


So do you not bolus your goats? Or do you and just use extra copper in the form of lose minerals plus the bolus?


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

SalteyLove said:


> If she were mine, I would give her 8 grams of copper bolus tomorrow and wait 2 more months to see. (With loose minerals available)


I am totally new to goats so you'll have to forgive my maybe silly question... since I just bolused her 6 weeks ago, would 8g be too much copper for her system?


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

I would go ahead and give it to her. 

The loose minerals won't overdose her on selenium. Go ahead and put those out free choice.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

Definitely offer the loose mineral free choice regardless of the selenium gel. 

Because she has been showing copper deficiency progressively with the color changes you noted over months, I would personally not hesitate another 8 grams of copper bolus. Technically the accepted "bolus" dosage is 1 gram per 20lbs so the doe was underdosed the first time.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

MtnRidgeFarm said:


> So do you not bolus your goats? Or do you and just use extra copper in the form of lose minerals plus the bolus?


My loose mineral has around 2,000ppm of copper, and I still have to bolus once a year, and the darker coated goats twice or more a year.


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## lovinglife (Jun 6, 2013)

I have one Alpine and I have to give her copper twice as much and twice as often as my other goats. In all fairness though she gives over twice the milk as all my other goats so I am happy to pamper her.


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## SalteyLove (Jun 18, 2011)

I often wonder if darker pigment goats truly need more copper than others or just show symptoms more clearly. It does seem like in my own experience the paints and red boers in my herd truly need more than traditionals and my white kiko crosses.


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

<<<When she came to us she was completely black (where she should be black) and now her coat has really turned that copper-y color that is an indicator of too little copper.>>>
<<<I was giving 1/4tsp per hear per day along with 1 tsp dolomite. That was what the man we bought her from had done for the past few years with her. >>>

I'd simply go back to what was working so well!
camooweal


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

camooweal said:


> <<<When she came to us she was completely black (where she should be black) and now her coat has really turned that copper-y color that is an indicator of too little copper.>>>
> <<<I was giving 1/4tsp per hear per day along with 1 tsp dolomite. That was what the man we bought her from had done for the past few years with her. >>>
> 
> I'd simply go back to what was working so well!
> camooweal


My problem is that for whatever reason, it WASN'T working for me. I was doing the same copper routine that the previous owner was from day 1. I didn't bolus until almost 2 months later when I noticed her coat changing color.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

There must be something inhibiting her copper intake. High iron in your water? Too much calcium?


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

NyGoatMom said:


> There must be something inhibiting her copper intake. High iron in your water? Too much calcium?


That's what I was wondering regarding a possibly higher level of alfalfa being fed.
Our water isn't iron heavy and I'm not sure where the extra calcium would come from? The goats get rain water.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

So you're feeding alfalfa hay?


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

She is getting a mix of grass and alfalfa plus chaffhaye.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

It might be possible. What was she getting at the other place?


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

Just grass and alfalfa. I added in the chaffhaye.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

I am curious as my buck struggles with this too. I just came up with a formula to decrease his calcium intake tonight. Wondering why he needs so much copper. Planning to see how this changes things. He is due for a bolus right n ow though.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Maybe try taking away the chaffhaye...and try what they were doing again.


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

In what form is the extra calcium coming in? In loose minerals?


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Alfalfa has a lot of calcium correct? He gets alfalfa pellets as part of his daily feed.


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## camooweal (Jun 27, 2015)

OK! There's some reason why the copper/dolomite worked for her previous owner so in that case I'd be talking to this person and see what he has to say??? Interesting!
camooweal


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Hugs. Things have changed for her and now she needs more. Most of us offer free choice loose minerals and still supplement copper and selenium. So give her those minerals. And give her more copper, because the bolus has copper oxide which is extremely difficult to OD.

I'm glad you are cautious and alert. In this instance, I think you are just too cautious. It'll be OK.


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

mariarose said:


> Hugs. Things have changed for her and now she needs more. Most of us offer free choice loose minerals and still supplement copper and selenium. So give her those minerals. And give her more copper, because the bolus has copper oxide which is extremely difficult to OD.
> 
> I'm glad you are cautious and alert. In this instance, I think you are just too cautious. It'll be OK.


I added in the loose minerals a few days ago so we will see how she looks over the next month!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm glad she has the loose minerals again. Don't forget the copper bolus.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.

Also there are some minerals goats will not eat, they just don't like it. 
So play with other brands to see which they do like.


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

She has been eating the loose minerals so hopefully I will see a difference in the next few weeks. Is it a general consensus then that I should bolus her again now? 4g? 8g? Or should i just wait and see how the loose minerals do? I reduced her chaffhaye and her alfalfa. She's still getting some but I'm trying to stick with a lot of good quality grass hay.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, bolus, and the 8 grams won't hurt her. Don't wait, because the pregnancy is not waiting.

And being pregnant, she needs alfalfa.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Oh yes, if she is bred, she needs the alfalfa either in hay form or in pellets. I would bolus again at 1 gram per 22 lbs.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If she shows signs of copper deficiency, give her 1 4g bolus. Then watch. 
By 4 months later, if she is still showing signs, give another one. 
I always like to underdose, then just give more 4 months later, if they need it.
If she has good copper in her minerals and eating them well, that too gives her copper.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

I agree with Saltey, that the darker fur on the goats seem to at least show the deficiency more than the lighter colored goats. Our all brown doe surely indicates a need for a bolus, and we bolus her more often.

Sometimes there is an antagonist, be it in the water or something...I don't quite get it, but some things work against copper absorption, I am convinced! I have read about it, and when I ask no one seems to know how to answer the question?

So, Sulfur, Iron, calcium, and molybdenum work against the goats being able to utilize all the copper.

*Molybdenum is one that works against copper being absorbed.*
*Anyone familiar with any of this?*


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

@odieclark That was my thought on the alfalfa since I had "upped" it from what the previous owner was giving when I added in the chaffhaye... since alfalfa contains molybdenum and it does hinder the copper.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

MtnRidgeFarm said:


> @odieclark That was my thought on the alfalfa since I had "upped" it from what the previous owner was giving when I added in the chaffhaye... since alfalfa contains molybdenum and it does hinder the copper.


My fear is that you seem more willing to restrict the needed calcium and protein in your feed, rather than simply up your copper.

The fact is, something has changed for her, and she needs some thing that only you can supply, and you can supply it easily and safely. You don't need to restrict other nutrition, just give more copper. Don't be afraid. It'll be ok because the boluses are very, very safe. Toth Boer Goats won't steer you wrong.

More goats have suffered more harm from lack of calcium, copper, selenium, and zinc... than they have from excess. Yes, some have been harmed from excess. But numberwise it is heavily on the other end of the scale. Especially when the signs are already there showing deficiency.

She's deficient already, and she's pregnant. Her need will not go away. It'll be OK.


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

mariarose said:


> My fear is that you seem more willing to restrict the needed calcium and protein in your feed, rather than simply up your copper.
> 
> The fact is, something has changed for her, and she needs some thing that only you can supply, and you can supply it easily and safely. You don't need to restrict other nutrition, just give more copper. Don't be afraid. It'll be ok because the boluses are very, very safe. Toth Boer Goats won't steer you wrong.
> 
> ...


No, I am not at all looking to restrict nutrients from her. My original post, if you go back and read it, was simply asking if because I had increased her alfalfa, if that could be what was hindering the copper sulfate or bolus that I had given? No where did I say that I wouldn't try more copper, so I'm not sure where you are getting that. I added the loose minerals for her early last week so that she would not only have the bolus but a daily dose of copper as well. And I am not against re-bolusing her. I simply asked if the added alfalfa (especially since chaffhaye is so concentrated) could be hindering her copper.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm sorry I misunderstood. I read that you were willing to eliminate the alfalfa, and only give her grass hay. Please forgive me.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

MtnRidgeFarm said:


> I reduced her... alfalfa. She's still getting some but I'm trying to stick with a lot of good quality grass hay.


This is what first alarmed me. NOT your original post, but much later.

I'll leave the thread now so I don't misunderstand you again.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

No worries, It helps having all the readers and contributions. We can all learn from e another and the threads get lengthy sometimes!

We all want to do what’s right and what’s right or what works oneplace may not work at another location for many reasons.

Ground water, plants, weather, etc!

Goats are challenging-and they have intense energy usage-which causes them to seem to need more vitamins and minerals...

I can’t believe how many extras we give the goats that the other ruminants on the same property do not seem to need! 

We have sheep and cattle and they need far less intervention than the goats!


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

mariarose said:


> This is what first alarmed me. NOT your original post, but much later.
> 
> I'll leave the thread now so I don't misunderstand you again.


Sorry, maybe I worded it wrong. I was giving grass, alfalfa, and chaffhaye. So essentially I was feeding way more alfalfa than grass. The original owner was feeding a half and half of grass and alfalfa. With adding in the chaffhaye (which to my understanding is like super concentrated alfalfa) I was wondering if it was just too much. So by "cutting back" I was just going to try and go back to what was originally fed, therefore reducing her alfalfa.
You don't have to leave the thread!! That was not my intention at all!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

We all can misread or take things wrong, I know I have. So, it is OK especially trying to clarify things so all know what is being said or the advice given. Clarification or alert is good, just in case.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

I will try to give you this site info. But here is a part of what it has to say about copper and alfalfa. 

If you have high mineral levels (calcium, iron, sulfur) in your well water -
Catch rain water for your goats.
Install a water treatment system that will reduce high mineral levels.

Avoid using goat minerals that have added molybdenum, which will bind with copper. This is often found in "sheep and goat" minerals.
Avoid feeding pure alfalfa as the only hay when no other forage is available. (Alfalfa is high in molybdenum.)
Do not add anything to your minerals, such as baking soda, kelp, diatomaceous earth, etc. because it can reduce the goats' consumption of the minerals. Everything should be in its own dispenser so the goats can choose between them and consume only what they need, when they need it.
Use loose minerals rather than blocks or tubs because goats have small, soft tongues and may have trouble getting enough minerals from a block or tub in areas where they need a lot.
Provide goat minerals with around 1500 ppm copper sulfate.
Feed goat grain with 35-45 ppm copper sulfate.
What if you've done all of these things, and you still think that your goats might have a problem with copper deficiency? Have a liver (or two or three) tested from a goat that died or was butchered. Because we didn't have a goat vet in our area, I called the lab to learn exactly what they needed for the test, and then my teenage daughter and I taught ourselves how to remove the liver for testing. Later I realized that this represented quite a cost savings, so we continued doing this ourselves and sending the livers to the lab to keep tabs on the copper status of our herd.


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## TexasGoatMan (Jul 4, 2015)

Here is the site the above information came from.
https://thriftyhomesteader.com/goats-and-copper-deficiency/

The goats have to eat the free choice minerals to get the benefits from them. My goats have been eating the mineral like crazy here lately mixed with Diamond V yeast. Not sure why because I keep the 50/50 mix out for them most of the time and they would only eat it occasionally. I mixed the Diamond V yeast with the minerals on a ratio of 50/50 mineral/yeast. I read about the benefits of the yeast and it helps the digestive system to be more efficient. Maybe because the does are pregnant is the reason for the increase intake.


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## odieclark (Jan 21, 2016)

Wow great! Thank you!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

That is my favorite blogger, and one of her best articles.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Good info.


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## MtnRidgeFarm (Dec 6, 2017)

Thank you so much, @TexasGoatMan !


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## groovyoldlady (Jul 21, 2011)

I have bookmarked that article. It is AMAZING. We are working on plans now for catching rain water for our does. Our well water is terrible: high in iron, sulfur, and calcium. It also enhances our lives with a touch of arsenic for good measure.


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