# doe in heat signs



## moday (Oct 10, 2007)

We have plans to breed our older doe (1.5 years) this fall. I've got a person lined up for December. Does it make sense that I drop the female off at their farm for a couple weeks and let nature do it's thing? I can never tell when she is in heat, and I've tried to watch. She lives with a Wether and anothe 6 month doe. The wether occasionally tries to mount her, but again, no sign of discharge or anything.

She is 75% Boer and 25% Alpine. 

Looking for pointers on when in heat, and what to expect. I'm hoping for a late fall/early winter breeding to get late "kids" in Michigan.

Thanks in advance


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I have a few does that do not show "signs" of heat - and then I have some that it is flaming obvious. Sometimes they will have discharge, possibly a little swelling on the back end. Some will talk alot and flag their tail like it is on fire. Some will even turn their butt at everything. 

I have bucks on site - so there is a wall seperating them, and alot of the times, the girls will go to the wall and stand there and the bucks will talk and talk and so I know that they are in heat.

if you are having a hard time telling, then yes, I would leave her their. Perferably seperate from the buck and have the owner of the buck do a "hootchie walk" daily with him so that you have a due date otherwise you will hate life later when you have a span of 3-4 weeks that she could deliver. It is so much easier to have a 5-10 day window!!!


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## moday (Oct 10, 2007)

I'm looking for some basics. How long does a goat stay pregnant before giving birth. Would this be the gestation period?

I'm preparing a 4x6 area for mother and baby the first few days. It will have a covered area and windblock.

I'd like to kid next late April/early May? December mating???

Anything I need to know in particular, or does nature usually run it's course? This will be the first kid for this 75%Boer 25% Alpine.

Thanks


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

guestation is 145-150 days. If you want a late april to early may you want her bred before the first week in December is over.

a thanksgiving time frame would put you right on for the last week in April.

heat signs are:
tail flagging 
calling loudly (or more then normal)
discharge
puffy rear
redness
going off feed
wanting loads of attention
being ornery


A doe may exhibit all or none of these signs -- being intune to her normal behaviors will help you know when she isnt acting herself 

A doe is typically in heat for a couple days with a short window of "standing heat" where she will stand for the buck to be bred, usualy 12-24 hours.

A good breeder can leave a doe with the buck for a couple weeks and check her rear for signs of breeding daily -- thats how I have done it.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

The other thing you might consider is synchronising her so you can organise for her to cycle on a day that is convenient for you to take her to the buck. 

I natural mate my does but I also synchronise them - just so it makes it easier for me all my babies arrive in a few days. I use CIDRs that go in for 21 days, then they are pulled out and generally within 1 - 2 days after removal they cycle. You can also inject PMSG at the time of removal, which encourages multiples, but I have had disasters doing that with quin and sex tuplets which are not viable. With the CIDRs alone I still get twins and trips. Now I have a larger number of goats I stagger the removal a little, so I pull four or five one day, the same two days later, so the buck ends up having three or four girls each day for a week.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Keren I do not believe we have anything like that available to us here in the US :shrug: I know I am not familiar with anything that you are talking about :scratch:


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

wouldnt that be something like lutalyse?


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## FarmGirl18 (Oct 5, 2007)

CIDR's are used all the time in the Boer world, it works sort of like Lute I would think. Mostly they use them when they are doing embryo transfers...so they can get all the recip does to come into heat on the right day.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

does lutalyse need a perscription?


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## badnewsboers (May 9, 2008)

I had posted about CIDRS in another thread but I'll repeat the information here. CIDRS are an intravaginal insert made of silicon that is infused with progesterone. you remove the insert the doe is in heat withing 24-48 hours. It is very good at synchronizing heats.

The problem is that they are not manufactures in the US yet. Many Boer breeders use them but you have to go round about ways of getting them.


And I believe Lutalyse does need a prescription. I've never used it myself though.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

The advantage of using CIDRs over lute is that CIDRs can be used during the non-breeding season. 

You can also get progestogen sponges which work exactly the same ... maybe these are available more readily?

I do know CIDRs are widely used in the American cattle industry ...


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

well thanks for the explanation, still confused on it but now I know something I didnt know before


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Stacey, the following is from Salamon's guide to artificial insemination of sheep and goats. Italics is me.

7.5 Synchronisation of oestrus

There are several methods of synchronisation of oestrus. They fall into two major categories, namely the pharmacological and natural methods. The pharmacological methods are effective in closely synchronising oestrus in the majority of females in the flock or herd, and predetermined fixed-time insemination can be practised, but they do incur some expense in the purchase and administration of the pharmacological products. The natural method may be less expensive, but does not result in close synchronisation of oestrus (oestrus detection and drafting must be used) and it can be used only in certain regions and at certain times of the year.

7.5.1 Pharmacological methods of oestrus synchronisation

The pharmacological methods can be divided into two types, based on different physiological principles. The first type is based on administration of synthetic progestogens (or progesterone) to simulate the action of a natural corpus luteum. The second type is based on the administration of prostaglandin (natural or synthetic) to shorten the life of corpora lutea. Since the prostaglandin method depends on the presence of a corpus luteum, it can only be used in the breeding season. The progestogen method can be used at any time of the year.

(i) Progestogen method

When progestogen is administered daily for 12 - 14 days in ewes or 16 - 18 days in does, oestrus and ovulation do not occur. On termination of this treatment oestrus usually occurs 2 - 3 days later. The treatment acts in the same way as a corpus luteum, and pituitary output of gonadotrophins is suppressed. Once the progestogen treatment is withdrawn, the pituitary releases increasing amounts of gonadotrophins which stimulate the growth and subsequent ovulation of follicles. Exogenous progestogen treatment does not affect the function of a fully formed corpus luteum. For effective synchronisation of a group of females, therefore, the duration of progestogen treatment must equal or exceed the lifespan of a corpus luteum (12 - 14 days in sheep and 16 - 18 days in goats).

There are several methods of administering progestogens to ewes and goat does. The most convenient methods involve handling the female twice only, once to insert a progestogen releasing device, and once to remove it. At removal, ovulation stimulating treatments can also be administered.

Both the intravaginal and the subcutaneous routes have been used for administration of exogenous progestogens. For convenience and simplicity, intravaginal devices are preferable. They are of two forms, the intravaginal pessary or sponge, and the CIDR (controlled internal drug release dispenser).

_The sponge and the CIDR both work on the principle outlined above. They are implanted with progestogen. The sponge is a little larger than a marshmallow, and attached to a string. To insert, you can simply use your fingers or you can use a small pipe and a stick (the sponge goes in the pipe, the pipe goes in the goat and then you use the stick to push the sponge into place, after which you withdraw the pipe). The string hangs out of the doe for easy removal - just pull on the string in a downwards motion. CIDRs are a differently shaped device which is inserted with a special applicator, but the principle is the same. A plastic 'tail' sticks out for removal. Removal is any time after 16 - 18 days. After removal, most does reach standing heat in 1 - 3 days. Sometimes, fecundity is lowered, but I havent had a problem. If you are concerned, you can give a treatment of PMSG (pregnant mare serum gonadotrophin) which stimulates ovulation and increases fecundity. I havent found it necessary._

In this pic the CIDR is on the left, the applicator on the right. When in the applicator the arms are held together, when placed in the doe they spread out to hold the device in place. You can also see the tail which stays on the outside of the doe for removal.

http://www.luresext.edu/photos/CIDRapplicator.jpg

This is the intravaginal sponge

http://pharmplex.com.au/Images/flurogestoneacetate_sponges_fga-30_lge.jpg


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## badnewsboers (May 9, 2008)

Yeah, the cattle ones are readily available in the US. The goat industry hasn't pushed enough for the same to happen yet I guess.

The bad thing about sponges is that since they're porous they attract bacteria. I've seen studies on them in the US but I don't know if they are more readily available or not. All the breeders I know use CIDRS though.

Hey keren, just curious but how much do CIDRS run you? Just wondering how much the price is hiked up over here since we have to go about such a round about way to get them.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

bnb, the applicator is worth $34.95, the CIDRs are $89 for a pack of 20, however I use my CIDRs three times so to use it to sync a doe costs me roughly $1.50. Australian dollars.

With the sponges, you should dust them with an antibiotic powder before insertion. I have never had a problem with them though, I just use CIDRs now because they are cleaner.


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

This is an interesting conversation. Thank you Keren. Does the CIDR (?) cause a doe to ovulate more eggs by itself? How would you increase the chances of a doe that usually has singles to produce multiples? I don't want quints of course, but twins or trips would help by reducing the size of the kids, I think.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Di, fecundity has both genetic and other mechanisms.

This is how I would approach the situation if she were my goat.

#1. The genetic predisposition. Some goats are genetically predisposed to a set number in the litter. It is not set in concrete though. But, my first step would be to select a buck who is either a twin or triplet himself, or has thrown multiples.

#2. The nutrition effects. Nutrition plays a HUGE part in fecundity. As the body condition score of the doe increases, the fecundity increases. There are two approaches to this and I use both. Firstly, the doe needs to be on a rising plane of nutrition at the time of joining. This is termed flushing and needs to be done at the very least 1 week before joining, and a few days after, though I tend to do it two weeks before and one week after. During the week before, the doe should recieve 500 to 750 g of lupins (per goat, per day) mixed into the normal ration. The reason I do it for two weeks is I like to introduce it slowly in the first week, and build them up to the 500 g in the second week. The week after joining I taper it off.

The second arm of this nutrition attack is that the doe needs to be in a critical body condition to optimise fecundity. Approximately 1 mth before joining, the doe's body condition score should be checked. Check out this link for how to do it. http://bedford.extension.psu.edu/agriculture/goat/Body Condition Scoring.htm

3 is the magic number - you want the doe to be 3 or even 3.5 to 3.8 at joining. So check one month before and increase feed if neccessary. If she is fat - over 4.1 - then we have problems because it is easy to take the weight off by decreasing feed, but you still want her on a rising plane of nutrition as mentioned above.

#3. Pharmacological methods. The final thing to do in conjunction with 1 and 2 is to help out her hormonal system. Note that just 1 and 2 above may be satisfactory to increase fecundity, but if your goat is usually well fed I would think that some hormonal treatment as well will be in order. I would insert a CIDR or sponge as described before, on day 20 (I use day 20 to be safe, you can pull as early as day 16) the sponge/CIDR is removed and at the same time an injection of PMSG 400 IU is given (during the breeding season. If out of the breeding season, inject 600 - 750 IU two days before removal).

So, to summarise that all into a timetable.

Minus 7 days: Buck selection and doe condition score. Increase feed if needed. 
Day 0: Insert sponge/CIDR
Day 6: Begin adding lupins to feed.
Day 13: Does should be receiving 500 - 750 g lupins/head/day
Day 20: Sponge/CIDR removal and PMSG injection 400 IU
Day 22: Natural or artificial mating

Does that help?


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

wow ! that was alot of valuable info, thank you keren.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

No problem Alaska. I am in my final year of a Bachelor of Science (Animal Production) degree, and I have specialised somewhat in small ruminant reproduction - encompassing many aspects from pregnancy through to parturition and lactation. I will be beginning an honour degree in this area next year.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

well its great to have all of these knowledgeable goat people here :hi5: !!


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Hi again, been busy for a couple days, but I'm back!

OK, I see that lupins are a legume...is that the equivalent of our alfalfa?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Lupins and alfalfa/lucerne are both legumes, though while alfalfa is a fodder plant lupins are harvested for grain. You cannot graze the lupin plant or cut it for hay due to its unpalatability. Your feed store should be able to get lupins for you (most probably cracked lupins). 

Current research being conducted at my uni is showing that you can also use alfalfa and chickory to achieve the flushing effect. Although the work is not finished, so I am unsure how much you would need to give them per day. If you wanted to go that route, I would suggest that the doe not have access to alfalfa hay at the beginning of her treatment, just good cereal or pasture hay, then introduce the alfalfa on the same day as you would the lupins.


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## Amos (Oct 2, 2008)

Wow, yes thats actually very interesting.. I think everyone could learn quite a bit from you Keren!


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I am happy to help Amos. I find all things goat (including reproduction) fascinating, and also production animals and agriculture in general. I am always keen to learn more by talking to other people and soaking up their knowledge and experience, and I am also enjoy sharing my own knowledge and experiences.


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