# Mystery illness



## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Okay guys, I need you all to put your clever and knowledgable heads together and be detectives in helping find out what this illness is. 
I lost Thomas to it just a week ago, and now Josh is starting to show the signs Thomas did when I first noticed something was wrong. 
The first thing I noticed was he was walking strangely... kind of reluctantly, walking heavily, crossing over his front legs, his toes splayed. 
Then he started flopping down to his knees when he didn't have to walk anymore, especially when he was given food, he'd lay down to eat it. 
A few days later, his breathing started getting a bit raspy and laboured. 
Was still interested in his food and quite happy to eat, but over the next week he got weaker and weaker, breathing getting worse, no appetite, not getting up etc, until he died.

Now josh is starting to walk funny and it's sending me into a panic because I don't want to lose him too. 
I'll try attach a video to show you how he's walking, not sure how to get it off my phone. 
Here's a picture of his feet while standing still:


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)




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## Used2bmimi (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh sweety I hope you find out what this is in time. My first thought is goat polio or some form of that. Have you tried fortified vitamin b complex? It has to have thiamin in it. I am sure someone more knowledgable will come on soon. I will be praying for you.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Please give a detailed description of their diet and any supplements / vaccines. Age?


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

I was thinking White Muscle Disease right off so I went and looked it up. Take a look at this:

Vitamin E deficiency is independent of soil type and more closely reflects forage quality. Grazing animals usually consume adequate amounts of vitamin E. This is because fresh legumes and pasture are good sources of vitamin E, whereas silage, oil seeds, root crops, cereal grains, and dry hays tend to be poor sources of vitamin E. Prolonged storage of feedstuffs results in a degradation of Vitamin E activity, as much as 50% per month.

When the skeletal muscles are affected, symptoms vary from mild stiffness to obvious pain upon walking, to an inability to stand. Lambs/kids may tremble in pain when held in a standing position. A stiff gait and hunched appearance are common. Affected lambs/kids may remain bright and have normal appetites, but eventually they become too weak to nurse. When the problem occurs in newborns, they are born weak and unable to rise. Sudden exercise may trigger the condition in older lambs and kids. 
When the disease affects the heart, the animal shows signs similar to pneumonia, including difficult breathing, a frothy nasal discharge (may be blood stained), and fever. The heart and respiratory rates are elevated and often irregular. Skeletal and cardiac muscle disease may occur concurrently.

*Treatment*
Treating the heart form of WMD is usually ineffective and those that survive often do not thrive because of the residual cardiac damage. The muscle form of the disease can be successfuly treated with supplemental selenium and/or vitamin E. Producers need to follow label directions carefully when using selenium for treatment. The concentrations of selenium (per ml) vary greatly with each product, and excessive or repeated injections can result in selenium toxicity and possibly death. 
The commercially available selenium/vitamin E product(s) commonly used in the U.S. do not contain therapeutic levels of vitamin E. Additional vitamin E may need to be provided through an injection of vitamin E alone or through oral vitamin E products. Affected animals usually respond favorably to a single treatment of vitamin E and/or selenium in 24 hours, though recovery may not be complete, depending upon the severity of the condition. Animals which do not respond to treatment may be treated a second time. Treatment should not exceed two doses.


Taken from the following article: http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/WMD.htm


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Am still reading about WMD and will continue to post important info I come across. I have mentioned this piece before but may be relevant here as well.

*We  have since learned that the BoSe does not always have enough Vitamin E to do the job. If a kid is born to a previously treated doe and still has weak muscles, we have found that puncturing a Vitamin E capsule (1,000 mg) and squirting it into the kid's mouth will produce positive results within 12 hours.*


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

TDG; my mum and I were starting to suspect WMD just before Thomas died. Do you think this is the case?
We have Vitamin E caps. Do we have to squirt it or could we just put it down his throat?

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to say, he is just coming on to 4 months now, they used to get an alfalfa/grass mix but we recently switched to just alfalfa because that was all the feed store had. 
They got their shots and boosters as younger babies but I could'nt tell you the name, I had a friend do it for me.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

PiccoloGoat said:


> TDG; my mum and I were starting to suspect WMD just before Thomas died. Do you think this is the case?
> We have Vitamin E caps. Do we have to squirt it or could we just put it down his throat?
> 
> Edit: Sorry, I forgot to say, he is just coming on to 4 months now, they used to get an alfalfa/grass mix but we recently switched to just alfalfa because that was all the feed store had.
> They got their shots and boosters as younger babies but I could'nt tell you the name, I had a friend do it for me.


It looks like you open it up and put it down his throat... I think because it would absorb quicker? That is just what I goat by reading the article that TDG posted. I'm no expert, but as I'm reading this I think he's on to something. Praying your little guy makes it... He is soooo adorable, just like Thomas...


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

So puncturing and THEN forcing him to swallow the tablets? I think just trying to squirt bits of liquid in will get a bit messy


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

We use the same soft gels you buy for yourself outta the store. We give one of these everytime we give someone (mostly new born kids) a bo se shot. You can place the soft gel in the corner of your mouth and keep the end of it wet/damp. In a few minutes it should be soft enough to sqeeze and pop into the corner of their mouth. Throw the empty soft gel shell away. Yes, Janeen has it right, it just starts working faster. And as you/goats cant overdose on Vit E, the excess is passed in the urine. We found out the hard way on the farm we worked on that bo se isnt always enough. They always got great quality alfalfa and grain before kidding but like that article says, nothing beats fresh roughage.

Do I think it is WMD? I think its possible. More important, its easy and cheap to treat. If he hasnt had anymore bo se in awhile, you can give 1/2 cc once a day for 3 days. Id do a vit e one day, skip the second and do another one on the 3rd day. After this you dont wanna give any more bo se. Selenium levels can start to become toxic.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Okie dokie, got the Vit E down pat
The problem is BoSe... I'm in australia and I don't know what the equivalent would be (if any?) or where to get it.
I will ask some australian friends what they think about that, and I can try get some Vit E down him now
Thanks for all the fast replies!


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Good luck. Ill look to see what I can find for a replacment for the bo se.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Had an idea. I think they sell selenium supplements in the same section they would the vit e. If they do you maybe able to grind up a pill or by chance find a soft gel as well? *I removed the equivalent part as there are many conflicting suggestions on the net. And as I dont know your boys weight, I dont know what it would be.

*Now with that said, I cant find bo se in Australia either. Granted I can find BOSE stereo speakers and headphones for freaking days... I hate it when they mess up searches with close matches. In any event, the one thing I did come across was, contact a vet and ask them if they have any or if they know where you can get it. Other then ordering on line and waiting the the 2 weeks or whatever it would take to get to you, the only option is selenium supplements from the durg/grocery store. It should be 1 pill a day for a person. Average figured weight would be 160 lbs. Now just need someone to chime in with what the bottle says for dosage and we can figure out how much of the pill to give.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

We've had trouble finding the selenium in store, and I'm weary about the use because it can be bad for them if you give them too much (so I've read)
About two weeks ago at the vet he weighed about 16 and a half kg or about 36 lbs
I might call the vet tomorrow and ask what she thinks if I can talk to her. They're already closed today 

We have this stuff called Clements Tonic which has selenium among other things in it that we could try as well


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Update: I posted on an Australian page and got back these two names for BoSe-like products
- Illium Selvite-E (sometimes hard to get apparently)
- Novartis B12 + Selenium 

Hoping that the vet has something along those lines and doesn't charge me an arm and a leg


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## AmyBoogie (May 20, 2013)

I'm hoping your vet can help you today and get little Josh feeling better.

There are a bunch of different horse meds here in the state that have selenium in them. If your vet doesn't have the shot, I wonder if he can point you towards some over the counter horse supplements.

I also looked up a human selenium pill
http://www.drvitaminsolutions.com/p...ian_Capsules?gclid=CPjV9PCPvrkCFUXNOgodzVsAzg
200mcg per pill on this one. Another one from GNC had 100 per pill.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I would treat for the WMD and also for Polio Listeria in case. 

I am sorry for your loss and hopefully with treatment this poor kid will be OK


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## lottsagoats (Dec 10, 2012)

From what I have been told by goat people I know (via internet) in Australia, there are a variety of insect borne diseases over there that cause neurological problems like you guy has, that usually ends in death if not treated aggressively. Do you have a vet you can see?


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## nchen7 (Feb 25, 2013)

I hope this thread helps about homemade bose gel

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f187/homemade-bose-119536/#post1058504

I was looking for myself when my doe was pregnant. I didn't actually use it though.

good luck, and keep us posted!


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

lottsagoats said:


> From what I have been told by goat people I know (via internet) in Australia, there are a variety of insect borne diseases over there that cause neurological problems like you guy has, that usually ends in death if not treated aggressively. Do you have a vet you can see?


I haven't heard about that, I could look into it. And I do have a vet but she's not really very experienced with goats, nobody is around here 



nchen7 said:


> I hope this thread helps about homemade bose gel
> 
> http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f187/homemade-bose-119536/#post1058504
> 
> ...


Thanks, ill look at that!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

I agre with Pam..treat with Thiamine and Penicillin as well..covers a large illness base...Best wishes

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html


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## Tenacross (May 26, 2011)

If I had a kid doing that, the first thing I would do is get a shot of thiamine in him. If I couldn't find my thiamine, I would give him a big blast of Fortified B-complex. You should really give your vet a chance to figure this out. It's been proven to me a couple of times this past year. My vet has flat out saved two of my best goats when I was stumped and or doing the wrong things. Give the Australian equivalent of the BoSe, by all means. What happened to Keren from down under? She's very knowledgeable and knows the meds in Australia. Try PMing her, Picolo.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

How are things?


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

How is Josh?


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

He hasn't gotten worse, but not any better either  might end up having to take him to the vet and seeing what she can do. I wish we got free animal healthcare here too!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would say definitely get him to the vet very soon.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

I agree, you should take him to the vet... Sorry to hear he isn't better


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

A vet visit is a good idea : ) 
The fact he is not getting worse tells me the treatment path you are on is working but maybe needs to be more aggressive...
Are you giving Thiamiam and penicilin every 6 hours? how much is given..?
A power pack of B complex to support?
are you giving safeguard and Ivomac for MW?


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Sorry guys I have been on the run for the past few days and unable to sit at the computer 
We finally were able to get him to a vet, called up the one we saw last time but they didn't have any selenium, so we found another one. I was a bit sceptical about it, thinking they wouldn't know what to do but he was great! He did a fecal straight up and we talked for a bit, he agreed to selenium injections. So we got that, a drench for worms because he found eggs and some antibiotics to clear out whatever might be infecting his lungs, plus more to send home. And he didn't cost me and arm and a leg like it did last time!
Only came to $85 (compared to $150)

We will found out in a few days how it works out, I am just crossing my fingers and hoping that he survives, I don't know what I'd do without my little boy.


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Great news...a good vet willing to work withyou is priceless and at a fair price!! icing on the cake 
good thoughts sent that he will be able to find whats going on with your little buck...


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Yay!! Good news


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Great news


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

I just wanted to come back and sort of re-open the discussion. You may know that he didn't make it.  He was looking okay one day and the next morning I came out and he wouldnt get up and was crying in pain and died later that morning.

A few days ago my step dad came home after talking to a friend who has goats/alpacas. The goat/alpaca man said the symptoms sounded like Barber Pole worm!!! (starting with uncoordinated walking)
I wanted to hear your guy's opinions about this. I know it's way too late to know for sure what it was but it's interesting.

What upsets me is that I already knew about barber pole worm, but we didn't even consider it because we were told what we wormed them with would treat it


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

It's possible that they already did too much damage before he was treated. You said the vet ran a fecal and found worms, did he tell you what kind they were? What medication did he give you?


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

Actually what it sounds like is Meningial Worm.

Barber Pole worm would have shown up in the fecal. It is easy to diagnose and treat because the wormload can be detected in the fecal. Meningial Worm can only be properly diagnosed with a spinal tap or necropsy of the brain. Meningial Worms are mostly harmless to their natural host (deer) but in goats their life cycle is interrupted and they burrow into the brain and spinal column and cause neurological symptoms like Josh had. It looks like Polio or Listeria, but doesn't respond to treatment. 

I know all this because Peggy Sue just got over a bout of what we suspect was MW. She had a slight weakness in her back-end that I noticed right away and began intense treatment of high doses of Ivomec Plus and Safeguard for a week. I also treated for Polio and Listeria just to be safe, but MW was the most likely culprit. 

I'm really sorry you lost your boys, MW is VERY often missed or overlooked because the symptoms mimic such common goat ailments. Unfortunately, if it had been MW, by the time the symptoms have become obvious it is often too late to save the goat and the damage is usually permanent. Even if some symtoms subside the goat rarely regains proper use of it's body.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

I don't think Australia has MW.


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## janeen128 (Dec 31, 2012)

Axykatt said:


> Actually what it sounds like is Meningial Worm. Barber Pole worm would have shown up in the fecal. It is easy to diagnose and treat because the wormload can be detected in the fecal. Meningial Worm can only be properly diagnosed with a spinal tap or necropsy of the brain. Meningial Worms are mostly harmless to their natural host (deer) but in goats their life cycle is interrupted and they burrow into the brain and spinal column and cause neurological symptoms like Josh had. It looks like Polio or Listeria, but doesn't respond to treatment. I know all this because Peggy Sue just got over a bout of what we suspect was MW. She had a slight weakness in her back-end that I noticed right away and began intense treatment of high doses of Ivomec Plus and Safeguard for a week. I also treated for Polio and Listeria just to be safe, but MW was the most likely culprit. I'm really sorry you lost your boys, MW is VERY often missed or overlooked because the symptoms mimic such common goat ailments. Unfortunately, if it had been MW, by the time the symptoms have become obvious it is often too late to save the goat and the damage is usually permanent. Even if some symtoms subside the goat rarely regains proper use of it's body.


I agree.


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

zebradreams07 said:


> I don't think Australia has MW.


Possibly a similar type of parasite?

Barber Pole worms bad enough to cause those issues would have shown up in a fecal, I think. Such a high worm load couldn't possibly be missed.


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

Just looked it up. 

It IS found in Australia.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Really? I found a reference that said it isn't. Couldn't corroborate it though.


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## Axykatt (Feb 1, 2013)

It's very rare but possible do to the importation of white-tailed deer.

I found a few references in materials about importing deer. They do try to keep it out through strict testing, but it has been occasionally found there in imported deer. It can't complete it's life cycle in anything but white tailed deer, so again it is VERY rare, but possible depending on where in Australia you live.


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Thanks for replies 
I am 99% sure it was not MW. They had no contact with deer their entire life, not even close.

The vet did do a fecal but I don't think he said what kind of worm it was (he might have but I can no longer remember). He gave Josh another dosing of wormer but I honestly think he was too bad already at that point.

They developed respiratory infections in the later stages as well, not sure if related to barber pole or if they might have had lungworm as well (that our first worming missed?)


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## Terri (Jun 17, 2016)

*Injectable BoSe or Selevite E*

Troy Laboratories stopped manufacturing Illium Select E Injectable it in Australia in 2010. Early 2011, I phoned and spoke to a Biochemist that was involved with the decision so stop Manufacturing Seletive E pleading that they recommence manufactureing it. I was told that it was purely an economical decission, that sales didn't warrant to keep manufacturing it (raw product costs had sky rocketed).
I then phoned MERCK ANIMAL HEALTH in New Jersey and spoke to them about importing BoSe into Australia or allowing me to purchase it and me importing it. They basically said no. I asked if Australia Zoo Wildlife Hospital would be able to buy/import it. Again No.

So I then phoneed their sister company, Intervet/Schering-Plough Animal Health in here and spoke to a Vet that trained & was a friend of Dr Jon it from the Hanger who Steve Irwin head hunted to build, start & run the Aust Zoo Wildlife Hospital. I asked if Intervet/Schering-Plough would import BoSe or similar into Australia. If they would manufacture it here in Aust. He explain all the reason why it would't be able to be done. He said he would love to be able to help Dr Jon. So I came to another dead end.

It is readily available in Canada & the US from Large Animal Vets by prescription only.

I was importing it from the US (injectable BoSe) but there were too many issue (I sorted out Customs & Quaratine issues) with Aust Wildlife Carers.
If anyone would like more info please EMAIL me wildlife.rescue.care#gmail.com

Terri


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## Terri (Jun 17, 2016)

Hello PiccoloGoat - Alyssa
Prior to 2010 Vets in Australia very rarely stocked Illium Selenite E, but some would order it in. As it has NOT been maunfactured in Australia since 2010. See my other post. It is called BoSe in US & Canada. I imported it for a few years from USA (about 100 bottles). Best way to get it would be to ask a Goat Breeder in US or Canada to purchase it from their Vet and send it to you. Make sure you pay them. BEFORE you get it. Be aware that the exchange rate from AUS $ to US $ is terrible for us buying in US. And postage is also expensive (My Aussie daughter, son-in-law & two young grand-daughters live in New York City & we post back in forth frequently).
Please feel to email me if you need more info.
Terri

[email protected]


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Terri, great info!! Alas though, this post is old from 2013.


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