# Hey....what about Hay?



## Rastus59 (Apr 12, 2013)

We recently bought some grass hay and my goats aren't eating it. It is a lush green, smells good, not dusty and no mold. They only thing we can see is that it has some really fine grasses in it. After trying to identify it the closest thing we can think that it could possibly be is a type of fescue. So I did my usual research on this and found that it can cause issues with pregnant goats. Does anyone have any experience with this type of grass with their goats? :chin:Any and all input is very welcome PLEASE!!! Thanks a bunch in advance! :thumbup:


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## Twink90 (Dec 21, 2013)

We feed our goats grass hay & they waste a lot of it ! I never realized how picky goats can be. We just use what they won't eat as their bedding. My girls never had problems with fescue , in fact they normally pick out brome & leave the rest .


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would find out from the farmer exactly what type of grass hay it is. If it is fescue, find out if it is endophyte-free fescue.


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## Rastus59 (Apr 12, 2013)

I doubt if he would know what endophyte free fescue is and I know I don't. What does that mean exactly?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Regular fescue has endophytes in it and that is what affects your goats. I would hope the farmer would know what he is cutting when he makes hay. Every hay farmer that I have ever bought from knows exactly what is in his hay. I would also hope a hay farmer knows about endophyte-free fescue.


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## Rastus59 (Apr 12, 2013)

I read what that meant and I have emailed him and asked him about this issue. I am curious what type of hay that everyone feeds their goats. I know fescue can cause problems with pregnant animals and mine are due to kid about mid March. I am not sure I believe in feeding all alfalfa either but I just know that the goats really waste grass hay terrible even when it is some of the best timothy/brome hay you can buy. I am at a loss here!!:hammer:


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I use an alfalfa grass mix hay.


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## OakHollowRanch (Jun 6, 2013)

We use alfalfa and the goats absolutely love it. It is full of protein and calcium, which is essential for pregnant and nursing animals. As long as you don't mind the cost and you have access to some, that would be a good choice!


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## Rastus59 (Apr 12, 2013)

I have found that alfalfa/grass mixes are a waste because they pick out the alfalfa and leave the grass. Do you feed alfalfa free choice? Aren't you worried about them putting on to much weight with alfalfa or birth weights of kids being to big?


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## fiberchick04 (Mar 8, 2010)

Our neighbor cuts and bales our pastures,since we know the goats will eat it. Our pastures are timothy. Whatever they waste we use as bedding. We don't worry too much about it because we get all of our hay for free. He leases some of the land, and in return he puts up as much hay as we need for the winter and shows for free. But, the goats love it because it is what they are used to eating all summer long. 

It isn't our land, after we lost our home in the fire this year, a dear friend of ours gave us a home to live in on her ranch (it is a cabin) rent free and she also gave my goats a home as well with no cost. We combined our operations, so I often refer to it as my land or our land. Just clarifying


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Goats are smart. They know bedding when they see it  hehe Now here is the kicker. If you put it down for bedding they may actually eat it.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Rastus59 said:


> I doubt if he would know what endophyte free fescue is...


If he doesn't know what is in his hay, you need to find a new provider who does!


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Rastus59 said:


> I am curious what type of hay that everyone feeds their goats.


I feed grass/alfalfa mix - preferably 3rd cutting if possible. The grass is a combination of several varieties of wheat grass, 2 or 3 varieties of brome, timothy, and orchard grass.


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Rastus59 said:


> I have found that alfalfa/grass mixes are a waste because they pick out the alfalfa and leave the grass.


Only if you let them. I do not free choice feed hay for this very reason. Any animal, be it cows, sheep, or horses, will pick and choose when free choice fed. My girls get 5-6 lbs of hay per day and they eat it because I do not give them a choice. Now, don't get me wrong, it is darned good hay! Hay costs too much to waste it, though.


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## armortrails (Jan 8, 2014)

I feed Perennial Peanut Hay. They don't waste any of it.


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## FullMoonFarm-Ky (Jan 15, 2014)

What does it matter rather it's first cutting, second cutting, or third?


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

Depending on how it was put up - the higher the cutting the better the quality and the higher the Relative Food Value usually.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

First cutting is always best IMO. 
First and foremost it has the most nutrients. As organic material breaks down throughout the winter months (and as previous fertilization has a longer time to do its job in the soil, vitamins and minerals are replenished in the soil. First cutting being first of course, has first access to draw those nutrients into the plant. Each successive cutting has less and less available nutrients to draw out of the soil.
Second you will have a larger stem. Stems in alfalfa equal fiber. The higher the fiber in hay the longer it takes an animal to digest it. The longer it takes to digest it the more nutrients can be drawn from it.
So you get a higher nutrient, higher protein and fiber feed. With each cutting the stems get smaller and the leaf more prevalent. Removing more fiber but while maintaining a higher protein level due to the increased leaf. 
In terms of feedability, later cuttings will be better as goats dont much care for stems and go after the leaf first. So you need to find a grower who knows what they are doing, so first cutting stems are not hard and over dried. Cutting and baling at the right time along with making the bales nice and tight will leave the stems soft and crushed. Making it easier for the animals to eat it. Now if you are feeding free choice, then a later cutting may be better just in terms of what the animals leave. But if you are feeding in feeders a set amount per day, and making them clean up their feeders, first is the better way to go.

So although later cuttings may look nicer, they are in fact not.


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## FullMoonFarm-Ky (Jan 15, 2014)

Thanks for the good information.


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## Rastus59 (Apr 12, 2013)

Being farm raised and around hay all of my life I was taught that the first cutting was coarser, more weedy and more stems. The second cutting was the best with higher nutrients and tends to be heavier in leaves because it is like any other kind of plant once the first cutting is made it makes every consecutive cutting thicker and richer. From the nutrient stand point I could see the first cutting being more nutritious but really don't know if that would hold true or not.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I feed my goats 2 x a day, they loved the grassy Alfalfa when I did get it. Free choice feeding causes a lot of waste, they pick and choose. 

When goats are hungry, they will clean it up, which mine do feeding morning and evening, I don't over feed.
If they don't clean it up, I am feeding to much, so I back off a bit, so it is cleaned up.

I agree with the logic of putting what they do not want to eat, down for bedding, LOL. 
I want it for bedding but the boogers with no time wasting at all, will start on it as soon as they are in the barn. It is good until one peed or poo'ed on it, then it is done.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

If not pretreated you are correct in that first cutting could be weedy. Around here it tends to be the red cheet grass or mustard seed. But the above was just a general description leaving out things like weed, how many years old the field is thats being cut and assuming the grower knows what they are doing. First cutting can be absolutely terrible if not done right. In that case Id most def. move onto second as a better buy.

Currently I am feeding this years forth. But thats only because with it being this late in the year its hard to located quality hay. And once this non rained on 4th is all used up, we will move onto a clean but rained on first cutting. The grower did the harvest on it right though. Its not over dried and yet the is no mold. Smell is decent and he harvests without getting a ton of dirt in the bails.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Fiber content is irrelevant if they don't eat the stems, which mine don't - even when they're on limited feedings. I just switched to free choice with slow feeders because I got a good price on feeder alfalfa; I let them run out just before refilling and they're pretty good about cleaning up everything except the big stems. 

I usually just feed local grass hay when they're not pregnant/milking, or if they get enough browse along with it. In the winter I always add alfalfa to boost their protein for pregnancy/milking. Normally I'll do free choice grass and limited alfalfa, but local is in short supply this year and with the cheap alfalfa it's easier to just let them pig out on that. They seem to be self regulating fairly well and no one is fat, at least not yet.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Free choice alfalfa is not something anyone needs to do and in fact is not only a waste of money but of the feed itself. Waste of money cause they dont need to be eating that much of it. Waste of money and feed cause they are not eating the stems. In turn not getting all the nutrients they could be outta what they are eating. This isnt just protein, but all the minerals and vitamins as well. 

Of my 80+ goats I feed about 65 of them twice a day. I feed the equivalent of 1/2 average flake of alfalfa per feeding for a total of 1 flake per animal per day. And as many have seen, as I love to post pictures of my animals, they are all in great shape. By the time I come back to feed the second time, the stems are gone. Even with large bale corn stocks and Christmas trees out in their "pasture" they still eat the stems. Now here is where the cuttings come in. The later the cutting the more likely they are to eat the stems as they are smaller. But if you can find a grower who knows how to harvest first cutting correctly, because the stems are bigger and can be crushed/compressed, they will be softer and easier to eat then later cuttings.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Like I said, mine won't eat the stems even on limited feedings, and they're definitely hungry at the next meal. As of right now I don't think they're wasting any more than they were before; and since I have two that need weight I do believe they're benefiting from the extra calories and protein. I'm not saying everyone should do free choice alfalfa but it's an option I would previously have not considered that is working for me right now.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

LOL I hear ya. There are some batches of hay my goats are not thrilled to eat the stems. So I yelled at em "Eat your vegetables!"


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## Wild Hearts Ranch (Dec 26, 2011)

Lol mine would starve. I figure the cost of the stems in a bale of alfalfa is probably no more expensive than straw, so might as well use it as bedding.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Ah lets not get into straw! Ill fill their feeders full of alfalfa just before I throw down new bedding (straw) and the jerks will leave the alfalfa just to eat the straw


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## GATA_Goats (Sep 19, 2013)

I found my goats like a good legume. I've mentioned it before on here, Perrinial Peanut and people were convinced I was talking about peanut hay. It is way different, Perrinial Peanut hay produces no peanut and has a nutritional value similar to Alfalfa while true Peanut hay is the byproduct of the peanut harvest and is a small step above straw in nutrition. I've also come to realize goats feed like goats and horses feed like horses. By that I mean, you need to shake things up a bit. Goats are foragers and samplers. They don't stand in a field and eat grass all day why would you limit them to grass hay only in the barn? I had the same problem with my goats turning their noses up to a diet of straight Coastal. So I mixed it with the Perrinial and they loved it! When I ran out of Coastal, they weren't all that excited about it anymore. That's when the light bulb went off, goats are browsers not grazers.


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## GATA_Goats (Sep 19, 2013)

armortrails said:


> I feed Perennial Peanut Hay. They don't waste any of it.


Hey another Perrinial Peanut fan! This stuff is awesome! I find so many people are immediately dismissive thinking it is peanut hay. Mine don't waste it either, they absolutely love it and will come running across the yard to get it.


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## armortrails (Jan 8, 2014)

GATA_Goats said:


> I find so many people are immediately dismissive thinking it is peanut hay.


That may be true for some on this forum where it is not readily available. However, it's pretty much all people fed their goats around here. 
In fact, I was at the south Florida fair this past weekend, and every single person was feeding it to their goats, and there were hundreds of goats from all over the state. 
I guess that is the reason they call it Florida's alfalfa, because the protein and calcium are so similar to alfalfa. 
I also like it because it's completely insect resistant and it requires no pesticides for the control of insects or diseases. I think that is important when your drinking the milk from your goats. 
Plus, it's cheaper than alfalfa and goats love it. So, what could be better?

BTW, my horse and donkey love it too.


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## Rastus59 (Apr 12, 2013)

I have never heard of peanut hay before probably because I am in the upper Midwest. Maybe the growing season for that particular hay is not something that fits our short warm seasons up here. I will have to do some research on that. I sure appreciate all the input on here as I have learned a lot. I am wondering though if a lot of the hay consumption depends on the types of goats one is keeping. We have Nigerians and they are the fussiest goats I have ever fed hay to. We used to keep Nubians for years but when I found these to milk so well and keep so much easier and cheaper I switched over. So....everyone give me your thoughts on whether the type of goat you keep would make a difference in the type of hay consumption they would prefer. :scratch:


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## GATA_Goats (Sep 19, 2013)

Rastus59 said:


> I have never heard of peanut hay before probably because I am in the upper Midwest. Maybe the growing season for that particular hay is not something that fits our short warm seasons up here. I will have to do some research on that. I sure appreciate all the input on here as I have learned a lot. I am wondering though if a lot of the hay consumption depends on the types of goats one is keeping. We have Nigerians and they are the fussiest goats I have ever fed hay to. We used to keep Nubians for years but when I found these to milk so well and keep so much easier and cheaper I switched over. So....everyone give me your thoughts on whether the type of goat you keep would make a difference in the type of hay consumption they would prefer. :scratch:


You won't be able to find it in the Midwest most likely. But if by some chance they can get it in be sure to ask for PERRINIAL peanut hay. Perrinial peanut hay and peanut hay are two completely different things.


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## armortrails (Jan 8, 2014)

I agree, you probably won't find it in the Midwest yet. I think it will get there eventually when it becomes more known.
It is mostly grown in Florida and Georgia. 
It is still not as popular of choice as T&A is with horse owners down here. However, more and more horse people are switching over to it when they learn it is really close in the same nutritional values as alfalfa, but horses won't colic on it like they sometimes can with alfalfa.


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## GraAlaMat77 (Nov 6, 2013)

All I feed is coastal hay, we able it ourselves, and supplement it with a hand mixed high protein feed from a local mill that we give to lactating does and kids under 6mo. As for wasting hay, I build those big mangers with cattle panels. Built four. Less than two hours per feeder. They seriously cut down on the waste.


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## ThoseGoats (Jan 21, 2014)

TDG-Farms said:


> First cutting is always best IMO.
> First and foremost it has the most nutrients. As organic material breaks down throughout the winter months (and as previous fertilization has a longer time to do its job in the soil, vitamins and minerals are replenished in the soil. First cutting being first of course, has first access to draw those nutrients into the plant. Each successive cutting has less and less available nutrients to draw out of the soil.
> Second you will have a larger stem. Stems in alfalfa equal fiber. The higher the fiber in hay the longer it takes an animal to digest it. The longer it takes to digest it the more nutrients can be drawn from it.
> So you get a higher nutrient, higher protein and fiber feed. With each cutting the stems get smaller and the leaf more prevalent. Removing more fiber but while maintaining a higher protein level due to the increased leaf.
> ...


Hay is so confusing to me. I'm also trying to figure out what is best to feed my Nigerians. Last time I bought a bale and was trying to figure hay out, I found this on a website

"There is no single perfect forage or hay for goats. As long as it is digestible, a wide variety of plants and hays will be consumed. Goat are very selective, "picky" eaters, choosing only those hays and forages which will give them the nutrients they need. The quality of hay, for example, varies greatly, based on how mature it was when it was cut and baled. If fiber levels are high, digestibility will be low , even if the protein level is high. Very coarse hay or forage is not readily digestible by goats, so they prefer not to eat them." (that's taken from http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/hayandforage.html)

So when I bought hay last time I asked the farmer about 1st 2nd and 3rd cuttings. He said that 1st will have a thicker stem and be less leafy because it grows tall before they cut it, and because of this they get a lot of it. 2nd cutting he said will have a finer stem and be more leafy because it doesn't grow as tall. and 3rd cutting will be even finer and more leafy because it grows even closer to the ground. But you say 2nd cutting will have a larger stem, and more fiber is better? I'm sooo confused, lol. Seems like everyone says something different.


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## TDG-Farms (Jul 12, 2013)

Id love to plant my small acreage with peanut hay but OMG its like 55.00 a lbs for seeds. Nope.


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## armortrails (Jan 8, 2014)

When I use to buy T&A for my horse, I was always told that 2 cut was the best. The people that sold hay must of thought 2 cut was the best too, because it was always the most expensive.


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## Rastus59 (Apr 12, 2013)

It appears this is a very controversial topic with many different opinions. I wish we could get an opinion from a grower who depends on hay for a primary source of income to see what their thoughts are on hay types, nutrients and preferred cuttings of most of their customers! I feed a horse and goats and find that there is a huge difference in what each will eat and how much is wasted...I do feed just the suggested requirements and if they don't clean it up they certainly don't get more until they make a good attempt at eating it up and I find that to be of some success. I sure would like to know what some of the breeds of goats that you good folks who have entered this discussion have to see if that is an element in what they eat, the cutting they will eat best and any other facets that go along with hay feeding to goats. Love the interest and the opinions generated by this post...you all are very open and helpful!! :thumb:


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

My family raises hay and it is our primary source of income.


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## Rastus59 (Apr 12, 2013)

What type of hay does your family raise and what is their opinion on which cutting is most nutritious and the most sought after. :?:


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## MsScamp (Feb 1, 2010)

We raise straight grass, grass/alfalfa, and straight alfalfa. 4th is the best cutting, but straight alfalfa is too hot for a lot of animals. 3rd or 4th cutting grass/alfalfa is what most people want, and it is what we sell out of first, followed by 2nd. I also prefer 3rd cutting grass/alfalfa.


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