# DNA drama



## Goatzrule

Hello all, it has been a while since I have posted or contributed. Life has been busy. 
Anyways, those who follow ADGA are aware that there has been a huge push to DNA test animals. Starting in 2023 all breeding bucks will be required to be DNA tested, which I think is great. A lot of herds have already begun DNA testing their entire herd. Now a handful of breeders are under scrutiny, as you can imagine. 
Recently a large and popular Nigerian breeder has been found that animals they have sold are not registered under the correct parents, thanks to DNA. Generations of animals getting messed up due to one lie. 
I believe this is only the start of exposing some unethical big breeders. I can only imagine the panic some are going through realizing they will be found out. Can no longer sell a FF kid under the name of your finished champion? 

Now ADGA has taken a hands off approach with this ordeal. They will provide the tests but the rest is between buyer and seller. Now I think this would make a good discussion on what is going to happen now? Should registrations be pulled because a kids grandsire is not who hes supposed to be? Should ADGA step in and suspend repeat offenders? Fine them? 

Now as far as does, if an ADGA champion gets offered a DNA test and they turn it down should that be put on their record? In cases like that makes you wonder why they would turn it down.


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## Morning Star Farm

I think it is great too! I remember one year when one farm had several does who won National Championships DNA'd and they all had the wrong sire listed on their registration papers. Big oops! Yes, some of it is unethical, but some of it is how sneaky goats can be too. Speaking from experience I've had crossbred kids seemingly mysteriously born, because the buck jumped in and out of the doe's pen with no one seeing him. That was a big disappointment, especially because it was one of my best does. It was easy to tell because the kids were obviously grades, but it makes you wonder how often that happens with the same breed and it isn't noticed. 
With the horses I have now, for years, all breeding animals, stallions and mares, have been required to be DNA'd before they can be bred and the foal has to have DNA sent in with registration. It has worked out very well for the breed and I'm happy to see ADGA going this route.


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## Jubillee

I agree with it! I have all my bucks DNA'd already as well as everyone their own G6S tests (not just relying on by parentage unless born on my farm directly from tested parents). I haven't DNA tested my does but considering it. 

I think it is a good step. I have a friend who bought a buck from big-name bloodlines. He did NOT have the correct sire listed when she DNA'd and he also ended up being a carrier for G6S when he was sold as normal. She had been in the process of doing DNA and G6S on her entire herd. She was not happy, I don't blame her. Now she offers DNA and G6S on every kid purchased, which I think is great. 

As far as what to do, I def think the herds that have the issues should be reprimanded somehow. Maybe a warning for the first time (cause we know accidents can happen) but repeated offenders, honestly I would think being suspended from registrations would be fair. Whatever that would be. I agree that why would anyone turn down a DNA test if they weren't hiding something? I haven't heard of the herds that seem to have issues...I'm hoping none in our lines, I don't think the ones I use specifically are in that group but who knows.


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## happybleats

Some years ago we had a Boxer registered with AKC. He had nice blood line and was used as stud a few times. He had several kids and grand-pups and great grand-pups on the ground. When he was about 6 years old we received a letter stating his papers and all the papers from his line were void. Apparently some one did a DNA test on his brother and found His Sire was not his Sire. It was frustrating to deal with because people came back on us as well as those who own the offspring unaware.
I think DNA testing is a great tool to help prevent this type of issue but also want to press that care needs to be taken when addressing a possible issue, cause like us, who were in the dark about the fraud, are just as floored about it.


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## Ashlynn

Yes after the mess I’m definitely going to DNA all of mine even though the major herd that was involved did not affect me.


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## Jubillee

happybleats said:


> but also want to press that care needs to be taken when addressing a possible issue, cause like us, who were in the dark about the fraud, are just as floored about it.


Yes! I think when there is an issue, it should be the herd that made the incorrect registration that should be reprimanded. Those that are further down that trusted that registration should not be reprimanded.

However, the more DNA testing there is, the faster issues would be caught.


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## happybleats

Yes..I agree!!


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## toth boer goats

Yes, I too agree.


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## AlabamaGirl

Goatzrule said:


> Should registrations be pulled because a kids grandsire is not who hes supposed to be? Should ADGA step in and suspend repeat offenders? Fine them?


Instead of pulling registrations, why not just "edit" the papers?


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## Goatzrule

I


AlabamaGirl said:


> Instead of pulling registrations, why not just "edit" the papers?


in some cases the original sire may not be able to be found. Maybe he past or the original breeder just doesnt know


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## NDinKY

I didn’t see this thread before starting one in the dairy section, but I’m now worried about spending any money on new blood for my herd. I wish they would let ND have a pathway to registering for grades like all the other breeds have. 

It’s a shame that ADGA isn’t letting people who might be affected know. I’ve heard people only find out when they go to register a kid and it comes back denied. Hopefully unethical breeders are few and far between, but the collateral damage is massive. Makes me very hesitant to purchase another buck in the near future.


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## AlabamaGirl

NDinKY said:


> I didn't see this thread before starting one in the dairy section, but I'm now worried about spending any money on new blood for my herd. I wish they would let ND have a pathway to registering for grades like all the other breeds have.
> 
> It's a shame that ADGA isn't letting people who might be affected know. I've heard people only find out when they go to register a kid and it comes back denied. Hopefully unethical breeders are few and far between, but the collateral damage is massive. Makes me very hesitant to purchase another buck in the near future.


That's what I was wondering as well, if standards can be American, why can't ND's?


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## Tapsmom

I had already made the jump and signed up to be a PLUS herd this year and received my dna test kits for each of my bucks. Luckily I do not have any of the lines from that breeder in my herd. 
My plan is to dna test any does in my herd that are not out of does and bucks I own. Although due to the cost I will do that gradually.


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## NDinKY

I’ll probably sign up for plus next year, have been wanting to start milk testing anyway. I think we’ll eventually dna everyone we didn’t breed on farm, and pull hair for all goats just to have in case it is ever needed.


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## Jubillee

NDinKY said:


> and pull hair for all goats just to have in case it is ever needed.


This is an excellent idea that we do too. You never know and if you have it and need to prove their DNA, especially if they passed away or were sold, you have it. With the investments into these animals, it's always a good idea to do that, even if they are already tested.


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## Morning Star Farm

AlabamaGirl said:


> That's what I was wondering as well, if standards can be American, why can't ND's?


I think they are still afraid that Pygmy crosses may be introduced if they do that. With the larger breeds, it is easier to tell on sight that they are not purebred, but some Pygmy/Nigerian crosses can look just like Nigerians and unfortunately I know of some breeders who would jump on the chance to do that.


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## AlabamaGirl

Morning Star Farm said:


> I think they are still afraid that Pygmy crosses may be introduced if they do that. With the larger breeds, it is easier to tell on sight that they are not purebred, but some Pygmy/Nigerian crosses can look just like Nigerians and unfortunately I know of some breeders who would jump on the chance to do that.


Is it because pygmys are considered a meat breed?


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## Morning Star Farm

AlabamaGirl said:


> Is it because pygmys are considered a meat breed?


Yes, they are not dairy goats and not registered by ADGA.


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## AlabamaGirl

Morning Star Farm said:


> Yes, they are not dairy goats and not registered by ADGA.


I think they should at least make exceptions for the people who (permanently?) lost their papers due to this whole ordeal though.


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## Morning Star Farm

AlabamaGirl said:


> I think they should at least make exceptions for the people who (permanently?) lost their papers due to this whole ordeal though.


I agree with you there. I *think* someone said if it is beyond the first 3 or 4 generations and those have been DNA'd, the goat can keep their papers.


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## Goatzrule

Pulled up my facebook and I guess there has been another fall out with a breeder. This time its worse than I would have ever thought. The breeder faking C-section records to add another kid, AIing a doe then she kids full term kids 2 months later. Man this is really creating a fall out


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## AlabamaGirl

Goatzrule said:


> Pulled up my facebook and I guess there has been another fall out with a breeder. This time its worse than I would have ever thought. The breeder faking C-section records to add another kid, AIing a doe then she kids full term kids 2 months later. Man this is really creating a fall out


Geez, do these breeders really not care?


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## wheel-bear-o

AlabamaGirl said:


> Geez, do these breeders really not care?


It's worse than just not caring. It's fraud. I'm honestly furious that this is happening because it's already been so difficult for Nigerians to get established as a registerable breed, grades and Americans aren't allowed, etc.

Then again maybe if there was a grade pathway to registry, people wouldn't be so surprisingly willing to lie and falsify breedings. I'm appalled and hope that no breeders I know and respect personally are going to be caught up in this.


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## AlabamaGirl

wheel-bear-o said:


> Then again maybe if there was a grade pathway to registry, people wouldn't be so surprisingly willing to lie and falsify breedings.


I agree with this as well, I wish the ADGA would relax their rules regarding Americans just a _teeny_ bit.


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## NDinKY

Goatzrule said:


> Pulled up my facebook and I guess there has been another fall out with a breeder. This time its worse than I would have ever thought. The breeder faking C-section records to add another kid, AIing a doe then she kids full term kids 2 months later. Man this is really creating a fall out


Shouldn't ADGA be catching these discrepancies??? I hope they do something to help remedy this situation (ban anyone pulling these sorts of things, make a pathway to register animals whose papers have been pulled, something else?).

I'd be totally for all registered animals being DNAed. Yes it adds cost, but then you build that cost into your pricing of the kids.


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## AlabamaGirl

NDinKY said:


> Shouldn't ADGA be catching these discrepancies??? I hope they do something to help remedy this situation (ban anyone pulling these sorts of things, make a pathway to register animals whose papers have been pulled, something else?).
> 
> I'd be totally for all registered animals being DNAed. Yes it adds cost, but then you build that cost into your pricing of the kids.


Even though it's an added expense, I think in the end, it's actually a good thing.


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## wheel-bear-o

AlabamaGirl said:


> I agree with this as well, I wish the ADGA would relax their rules regarding Americans just a _teeny_ bit.


This. I own a beautiful ND I bought without papers when I was an ignorant beginner. I know with one hundred percent certainty who her parents are, but the breeder is unreliable and won't return my calls about performing a DNA test/getting her registered, so me and people in my situation are completely SOL and this entire bloodline is never able to be registered, according to ADGA.

ADGA has been entirely unable or unwilling to explain to me why NDs aren't able to be graded like standard size breeds, so while they must have some sort of reason, it's not an obvious one. I genuinely believe that this is probably a substantial factor in why it is primarily ND breeders who are being caught out with these shenanigans, and I think it's gonna happen more.


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## Goatzrule

Its not just that, the breeder is selling these goats for 5k a piece.


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## goatblessings

This problem has actually been going on for a LONG time with the particular line. I don't have ND BUT others can pull shady stuff. I DNA my herd, so I can prove my lines to the seller, PLUS it gives me piece of mind going forward. If I buy anything I let the seller know I will DNA type that kid. Most times the buck is in the record book , but the does are not...... so there is always that.


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## AlabamaGirl

Goatzrule said:


> Its not just that, the breeder is selling these goats for 5k a piece.


I'll never sell or pay for an animal that is $5,000, I don't think there is any goat who excels so well in conformation and production that they are worth that much. _Maybe_ there are goats that're worth a thousand something, but 5 grand?! You do you I guess....


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## wheel-bear-o

AlabamaGirl said:


> I'll never sell or pay for an animal that is $5,000, I don't think there is any goat who excels so well in conformation and production that they are worth that much. _Maybe_ there are goats that're worth a thousand something, but 5 grand?! You do you I guess....


I have literally never even seen a goat for sale for that amount of money. I wouldn't pay it, either. I absolutely cannot imagine what kind of qualities could possibly demand a price of five times the best animals I know of.


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## goatblessings

Spotlight Sale ND went for $12,000 a couple of years ago ..... so yes some will pay that. It is a requirement that these animals are DNA typed.


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## AlabamaGirl

wheel-bear-o said:


> I have literally never even seen a goat for sale for that amount of money. I wouldn't pay it, either. I absolutely cannot imagine what kind of qualities could possibly demand a price of five times the best animals I know of.


Right? I better see near perfect conformation and godly production before I even think about shelling out 1,000 or more _for a single animal_. I mean, the owner is within their rights to price their goats how they see fit, and if they are making bank, congrats, I still haven't seen a goat worthy of such a price though.


goatblessings said:


> Spotlight Sale ND went for $12,000 a couple of years ago ..... so yes some will pay that. It is a requirement that these animals are DNA typed.


I'd rather buy 12, quality goats for a thousand each rather than _one_ 12,000 dollar goat. I guess the buyer must've saw somethin great if they wanted to spend that much money for a single goat, but at least their genetics are verified..


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## Morning Star Farm

AlabamaGirl said:


> I'll never sell or pay for an animal that is $5,000, I don't think there is any goat who excels so well in conformation and production that they are worth that much. _Maybe_ there are goats that're worth a thousand something, but 5 grand?! You do you I guess....


I agree! Especially when it is a kid going for that price. Genetics are important but not a sure guarantee that the offspring will be a National Champion too. It's a huge gamble and most likely it would be impossible to make that back with your own kid sales. Sometimes a herdname means everything for pricing.


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## Goatzrule

I guess I never paid attention with this one line. The person who is most recently in question has their genetics in most herds in New England. I just want to know what ADGA is going to do. Will all registered with questionable parentage be pulled? What about those that have CH and SGs?


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## Goatzrule

Oh to be a fly on the wall at one of these farms right now


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## Calistar

Goatzrule said:


> I just want to know what ADGA is going to do.


As little as possible, probably. Didn't they pretty much say that DNA disputes are between the breeder and the buyer? I know a lot of people were really disappointed in ADGA'S unwillingness to get involved in the Sir Charles issue, and as far as I can tell that one was a one-time mistake and not intentional breeder dishonesty.


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## Goat Whisperer

I honestly believe the Sir Charles issue was a clerical error. When I looked at the archived website, it actually showed that Harrison should have been the daddy! So sad.

What's going on with this breeder is just appalling. I had actually inquired about a buck years ago and someone seemed off when I started asking questions. She completely gosted me and put the bucks for sale for several hundred dollars LESS than what she quoted me. From what I've read, she has been in several lawsuits already. Just sad sad sad.

Sadly I know of breeders in other breeds of goats that have faked papers/pedigrees. If you are unethical, you are are unethical.

I am in the process of DNAing my entire herd. I've already done my bucks and a handful of does. I actually just sent in 3 more tests last week, and will send in a bunch more ADGA updates to NG. I want my buyers to feel 100% comfortable when buying my goats. Luckily all my Nigerian does are from the same dam line, so SUPER easy to show 4 generations of verified parentage.  
@NDinKY I'll gladly send a buck your way :heehee:

Personally, you pay what you feel an animal is worth. I've spent a lot of money on my bucks. I don't think those prices are outrageous. I probably wouldn't spend more than 3k on a goat. Any goat has risks. There was a spotlight sale doe that sold for like 14k a few years ago.....turns out the goat has WRY FACE. When buying livestock, you definitely have some major risks!


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## Tapsmom

We have worked very hard to improve our lines. We have built up from our 3 original does and improved upon them. And we have 4 nice bucks. All 4 are being DNA tested, And I will also DNA test all does we have brought into our herd ( which is a total of 4). I also like what some of you have suggested and pull hairs on each goat. But most of our herd has been bred by us, so we know exactly who has been bred with whom. And if we have any doubt and they are to be registered...we will DNA test them first.


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## Goatzrule

Goat Whisperer said:


> There was a spotlight sale doe that sold for like 14k a few years ago.....turns out the goat has WRY FACE. When buying livestock, you definitely have some major risks!


Are you serious?? I saw that sale and never would have guessed. Thats crazy


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## Goats Rock

ADGA will keep hands off, as some of the higher up muckety mucks are involved. 
My opinion- they need to have a starting generation- pulling papers from years ago isn't right. Notations on the papers.


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## Goatzrule

Goats Rock said:


> ADGA will keep hands off, as some of the higher up muckety mucks are involved.
> My opinion- they need to have a starting generation- pulling papers from years ago isn't right. Notations on the papers.


Im pretty sure that the president has animals from this herd. putting notions on the papers is a good idea. Make a certain generation void without taking away their offspring


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## AlabamaGirl

Goatzrule said:


> Starting in 2023 all breeding bucks will be required to be DNA tested, which I think is great.


Why are they only testing bucks instead of does?


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## goathiker

Because the buck is the most likely to be faked. 

I see a lot of people whinging about adga not policing, they are a record company not a enforcer. 

And grade Nigerian goats. It's against the rules to breed a full sized goat to a dwarf goat. It's also against the rules to breed a milk goat to a meat goat. What exactly are you going to breed up from? There's literally no other dwarf dairy goat in America. 

It's not like these rules are a secret or anything. You all agree to them when you sign up.


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## Calistar

goathiker said:


> I see a lot of people whinging about adga not policing, they are a record company not a enforcer.


Exactly- they're a record company. We are concerned (or "whining," apparently) that the integrity of the records are in question and they don't care because it's "between the breeder and the buyer." Who it's between is beside the point if the records they're keeping are incorrect. And part of ADGA's job IS actually enforcing the rules they set. It shouldn't be too much to expect of them.


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## goathiker

How are they supposed to know that the applications sent in are fake? They recorded what they were sent. The goat owners being screwed need to sue the faker. Some of these are class action worthy. 

You wouldn't believe how often this stuff happens across the show world. Have you ever watched the world champion dog shows? You wouldn't believe how many of those animals have had cosmetic surgery. 

Whinging is totally different from whining lol.


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## wheel-bear-o

goathiker said:


> How are they supposed to know that the applications sent in are fake? They recorded what they were sent. The goat owners being screwed need to sue the faker. Some of these are class action worthy.
> 
> You wouldn't believe how often this stuff happens across the show world. Have you ever watched the world champion dog shows? You wouldn't believe how many of those animals have had cosmetic surgery.
> 
> Whinging is totally different from whining lol.


They're not "supposed to know," that information provided to them is fake, but I would think it would be relatively common sense that if a pattern of suspect behavior and fraudulent information emerges, the offending member would be sanctioned. As you pointed out yourself, suspect behavior is not confined to the goat breeding world. However, other registries (including the AKC for example) commonly DO enact suspensions and/or fines when their members display inappropriate conduct.

Legal action, while perhaps warranted, is expensive and may well be out of reach of smaller or more casual producers. And intent to defraud in this incident may be a little tricky to prove in court, anyway.


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## goathiker

Really, then why was the world champion poodle several years ago not thrown out for the over bite she used to have?
Why do a lot of people on this site buy black market drugs from sites designed for cheating in the race horse world?
Cheating is a human condition, why would you put the blame on a registry instead of the person actually doing the cheating?

If you're a member of adga, then you signed a disclaimer that holds them free of liability for exactly this. 
Small claims court costs like $75. I would be suing the person who messed up the paperwork to begin with for a fee and disclosure of the real bloodlines with a new application, if eligible. 
Actually, I would be getting all the goat owners together and trying to get on one of the TV court shows. The more publicity the better. 

You guys aren't going to solve this by complaining. Nigerian goats were already on a trial basis. You might want to concentrate on adga not dropping them altogether since they were forced through with a very small margin on the vote.


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## AlabamaGirl

goathiker said:


> And grade Nigerian goats. It's against the rules to breed a full sized goat to a dwarf goat. It's also against the rules to breed a milk goat to a meat goat. *What exactly are you going to breed up from? There's literally no other dwarf dairy goat in America.*.


That makes sense.


goathiker said:


> Nigerian goats were already on a trial basis. *You might want to concentrate on adga not dropping them altogether since they were forced through with a very small margin on the vote.*


I hope they don't drop them. Were there a lot of ADGA members against letting ND's into the registry?


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## Goatzrule

Even now most shows dont like Nigerians. Part of the reason they are so regulated. 

ADGA is only really focusing on bucks right now because bucks can have more influence on genetics. They can breed multiple times a day for their whole lives


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## Goats Rock

The Nigerians are the most popular, breedwise, for people. So, the shows get more money for the Nigerians. But, a lot of the standard breed dairy goat breeders do not like them. 

There are many Nigerian breeders that are doing their best to breed responsibly and to further the breed. But, like any popular thing, animal or otherwise, there are unscrupulous breeders that just want to make a quick buck. They do not care about rules, standards etc. Nigerian Dwarf "puppy mills" as it were. They will doctor the paperwork and like the jerks they are- after they make a bunch of money, disappear into the night, leaving a broken hearted goat owner holding a $1000 animal not worth the paper it's pedigree is written on. 

There are Standard dairy goat breeders that do this, too. But the money is in the cute little Nigerians that like Peter Pan, never grow up. They tend to retain their cuteness, which people really like. (people like small, cute things!)


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## Damfino

Well, I gotta admit, when we go to the dairy shows the Nigerian Dwarfs look like a joke next to the standard dairy goats. I always wince when a Nigie wins "best of show" or even worse, "best udder". It makes me feel bad for people with obviously productive dairy animals who get beat by a toy breed. Nigies should be given their own separate "best of show" lineup because there's just no comparison when it comes to milk production. 

I think having a miniature division and a full-sized division would make sense. Minis are trendy and that's where the money is right now. Adding a miniature division could potentially open the door for currently experimental breeds like mini Alpines, mini Nubians, etc. I want everyone to have the opportunity to register their animals and enter shows, but it needs to be fair and I think the standard and miniature breeds are too different to compete fairly. 

Adding genetic testing requirements is a good idea. With goats it's way too easy to make breeding mistakes even if you're honest. Those bucks and does are wily!


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## Damfino

goathiker said:


> Whinging is totally different from whining lol.


Oh come on... it's not "totally different". "Whine" is a synonym for "whinge" and they have only slightly different connotations. The main difference is that "whinge" is British so you can sound hoity-toity. 

_*Captain Vocabulary has spoken...*_ :haha:


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## Morning Star Farm

Damfino said:


> Well, I gotta admit, when we go to the dairy shows the Nigerian Dwarfs look like a joke next to the standard dairy goats. I always wince when a Nigie wins "best of show" or even worse, "best udder". It makes me feel bad for people with obviously productive dairy animals who get beat by a toy breed. Nigies should be given their own separate "best of show" lineup because there's just no comparison when it comes to milk production.


I understand what you mean. A lot of standard breeders feel the same way, especially because Nigerians are fairly new compared to other breeds. And as a former active Nigerian breeder and exhibitor, I have to disagree. That is one of the main problems Nigerian breeders have, proving these little goats aren't just pets or toys and that they deserve the title of dairy goat. I'm not sure what lines they have at your shows, but I know that there are some amazing Nigerians who can milk over 9lbs per day! That is over a gallon of milk from a goat that is much smaller than a Nubian or other standard breed. Some of my Nigerians could out milk my standard goats, which is why I preferred them. I think that is certainly deserving of being on a par with a standard breed goat and getting the privilege to compete against them.


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## AlabamaGirl

Goats Rock said:


> cute little Nigerians that like Peter Pan, never grow up. They tend to retain their cuteness, which people really like. (people like small, cute things!)


They are extremely cute, I was watching a video on YouTube about weaning ND's and the dam could've easily passed as a kid herself because she was so cute and tiny.



Goats Rock said:


> They will doctor the paperwork and like the jerks they are- after they make a bunch of money, disappear into the night, leaving a broken hearted goat owner holding a $1000 animal not worth the paper it's pedigree is written on.


This is a real shame.. I feel sad for the people who buy goats in situations like this, I can't imagine investing thousands of dollars in my herd just to find out that there are discrepancies in their lineage that (could?) affect their registration..



Damfino said:


> I think having a miniature division and a full-sized division would make sense. Minis are trendy and that's where the money is right now. Adding a miniature division could potentially open the door for currently experimental breeds like mini Alpines, mini Nubians, etc. I want everyone to have the opportunity to register their animals and enter shows, but it needs to be fair and I think the standard and miniature breeds are too different to compete fairly.


I like this idea and I think someone had similar one with Guernsey's because of their long coat.



Morning Star Farm said:


> I know that there are some amazing Nigerians who can milk over 9lbs per day!


Wouldn't an udder that produces that much milk look oversized on an ND? I swear... when I'm browsing for high production animals it looks like some of them have a cow's udder and it looks weird.. But anyway, seeing posts like these make my love ND's even more! I didn't even know they could produce that much! I thought a person would be lucky to get 4 lbs./day from a ND.


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## Morning Star Farm

AlabamaGirl said:


> Wouldn't an udder that produces that much milk look oversized on an ND? I swear... when I'm browsing for high production animals it looks like some of them have a cow's udder and it looks weird.. But anyway, seeing posts like these make my love ND's even more! I didn't even know they could produce that much! I thought a person would be lucky to get 4 lbs./day from a ND.


Not if the doe is built for that capacity. Some people are really bad about over-uddering their goats for shows which looks really bad and is hard on the goat. If you'd like to see pictures, PM me and I'd be glad to show you some of the really nice Nigerians. As for capacity, I expected my FF's to produce 4lbs each day.


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## wheel-bear-o

I think it's not a bad idea to consider pros and cons of a separate mini category. My girls might not all have the total liquid milk output of a standard breed, but they do 10-11+% butterfat - I am a cheesemaker and that's exactly what I want. But I am also proud of their output and proud to have them compete against standards. 

Overuddering for show is a problem for every breed, imho. Sometimes it looks so painful it just makes me want to shudder and clutch my own boobs!


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## happybleats

I don't show but I had a Nigerian that gave me a half gallon once a day milking. She has a beautiful udder that ranks pretty much up there to my Lamancha. I only now have my pet nigies after selling my tinies but now have that amazing does daughter and can't wait until she is old enough to strut her stuff! (Harper was injured shortly after birth and now blind in one eye. The friend I sold her mom to was afraid for her safety as she has a wooded area she may get lost in..so I took her in) 
My current nigie ladies look like fat women in high heal...not very dairy lol..but definitely adorable :heehee:


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## Damfino

AlabamaGirl said:


> I thought a person would be lucky to get 4 lbs./day from a ND.


They are.

To those of you saying you've got high-producing Nigies, yes I know they exist and I stated as much, but they are the rare exception to the rule. Most Nigies can't come anywhere close in production to the standard breeds. 9 lbs./day is exceptional for a Nigie, but it's the bare minimum I expect from a low-producing standard dairy breed. Personally, I prefer low-producing goats because mine spend so much time in the scrub brush, and high production udders are high maintenance udders in my experience. Nevertheless, my low-production girls easily give over a gallon/day and they'll keep it up for years without refreshening if I keep milking them. That's why I don't think Nigies belong in the same class with standards. Separate divisions would improve the entire format in my opinion. I also like the idea of bringing other experimental mini breeds into ADGA so they can eventually become mainstream. With genetic testing to keep breed records honest I think this could be possible.


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## wheel-bear-o

Damfino said:


> They are.
> I don't think Nigies belong in the same class with standards. Separate divisions would improve the entire format in my opinion. I also like the idea of bringing other experimental mini breeds into ADGA so they can eventually become mainstream. With genetic testing to keep breed records honest I think this could be possible.


Basically the way it currently, is it's comparing apples to oranges, imho. Nigies have a clear difference - less fluid milk output, higher butterfat - that many people value, and probably we oughtn't try to pigeonhole them into standard competitive brackets.


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## AlabamaGirl

Morning Star Farm said:


> Not if the doe is built for that capacity. Some people are really bad about over-uddering their goats for shows which looks really bad and is hard on the goat. If you'd like to see pictures, PM me and I'd be glad to show you some of the really nice Nigerians. As for capacity, I expected my FF's to produce 4lbs each day.


I Pm'd you.



wheel-bear-o said:


> My girls might not all have the total liquid milk output of a standard breed, but they do 10-11+%―But I am also proud of their output and proud to have them compete against standards.!


That milk must be very sweet!



happybleats said:


> I don't show but I had a Nigerian that gave me a half gallon once a day milking.


Still shocking to hear! I'm glad I joined this forum, or else I would've thought ND's weren't worth milking!



Damfino said:


> I also like the idea of bringing other experimental mini breeds into ADGA so they can eventually become mainstream. With genetic testing to keep breed records honest I think this could be possible.


This would be very exciting! I think it would be nice to have a little ring for the miniature breeds! That'd be cute!



wheel-bear-o said:


> Basically the way it currently, is it's comparing apples to oranges, imho. Nigies have a clear difference - less fluid milk output, higher butterfat - that many people value, and probably we oughtn't try to pigeonhole them into standard competitive brackets.


Definitely!


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## Damfino

Morning Star Farm said:


> I understand what you mean. A lot of standard breeders feel the same way, especially because Nigerians are fairly new compared to other breeds.


It has nothing to do with breed "newness". I got into dairy goats long after Nigies were already well-established, so to me all breeds have the same seniority and I arrived at my opinions without any outside influence from other show people (in fact most of the people I know show Nigerians!). If Golden Guernseys ever get added to the ADGA herd books, I don't expect too see much prejudice against them for being "new". It's just that miniature and standard dairy goats are very different animals and the difference is obvious even to amateurs.



> That is one of the main problems Nigerian breeders have, proving these little goats aren't just pets or toys and that they deserve the title of dairy goat.


I would love to see proof because outside of the elite show goats, Nigerians just can't keep up production. I've yet to meet a "backyard" Nigie that could produce enough milk to supply a family or stay in lactation over an entire winter, whereas I've met many subpar backyard milkers from every standard breed that could do both of those things. If Nigies are to earn respect as serious dairy animals, then even the subpar backyard specimens need to generally be capable of maintaining this bare minimum standard of milk production. So far I just haven't seen it, but maybe someday I will.


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## Morning Star Farm

Damfino said:


> I would love to see proof because outside of the elite show goats, Nigerians just can't keep up production. I've yet to meet a "backyard" Nigie that could produce enough milk to supply a family or stay in lactation over an entire winter, whereas I've met many subpar backyard milkers from every standard breed that could do both of those things. If Nigies are to earn respect as serious dairy animals, then even the subpar backyard specimens need to generally be capable of maintaining this bare minimum standard of milk production. So far I just haven't seen it, but maybe someday I will.


Yes, I have seen many Nigerians who weren't "name brand" but still produced a good 4-6lbs each day. Some of them do very well in shows against the higher priced goats while others aren't very pretty to look at, but are still dependable milkers. On the flip side, I've seen many purebred standard breed does who can't milk enough to feed their own kids, let alone produce larger quantities. A lot of it is genetics, but a great part of it also depends on how the goat is managed.


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## Damfino

Morning Star Farm said:


> Yes, I have seen many Nigerians who weren't "name brand" but still produced a good 4-6lbs each day. Some of them do very well in shows against the higher priced goats while others aren't very pretty to look at, but are still dependable milkers. On the flip side, I've seen many purebred standard breed does who can't milk enough to feed their own kids, let alone produce larger quantities. A lot of it is genetics, but a great part of it also depends on how the goat is managed.


Yes, it's true that there are exceptionally good and exceptionally bad animals in any breed. I'm not disputing that. What I AM disputing is the idea that the_ majority_ of Nigerian Dwarfs are capable of producing 4-6 lbs/day (which in my opinion is still too paltry to be considered a proper working animal) year round. If the _majority_ of Nigerians are not capable of that bare minimum then I personally consider them a hobby or toy breed until such time as the _majority_ of them are up to par on production. There are many standard dairy goats who aren't up to par either, but I'd say the _majority_ are quite capable of producing _at least_ 6-8 lbs/day (bare minimum) without the need for re-freshening every fall. I call this a working animal. There's a reason ranchers don't buy Nigerian Dwarfs to nurse orphaned calves. Yet they can pick up almost any lactating standard breed from the sale barn and she'll be up to the task. I think I trust the cattle ranchers' experience on this one!

Don't get me wrong--I like Nigerians and I wish they were everything people tell me they are. They're adorably cute and as common as dirt around here so if I thought they were excellent homestead goats I'd be the first to recommend them to beginners trying their hand at dairy goats for the first time. Unfortunately the pie-in-the-sky super-milker stories have burned a lot of beginners who ended up having to buy supplemental milk from people like me. I only keep one goat at a time in lactation over the winter and I always cut her back to once/day milking, yet I still have enough left over to sell. This level of performance is the minimum for what I consider to be a "working animal". When it comes to breed expectations, it's all about what the majority is capable of, not about what the exceptional individuals can do, and this is where I think Nigerian aficionados rather overestimate their breed's capabilities. I don't necessarily think it's intentional. After all, love is just a little bit blind. 

(I hope I'm not stepping on too many toes here. I like Nigerian Dwarfs and I've even seen some outstanding Nigie/standard crosses that I thought would make phenomenal pack or harness goats, and I'm sure many of those crosses would be excellent homestead milkers. I have nothing against the breed, but I don't think they belong in the same class as standard breeds at dairy goat shows. Dairy showing is all about performance, and animals should show against like animals. You can't put a miniature horse in a Grand Prix jumping class even if _for his size_ he jumps higher than a full-sized horse. There's a very real proportional difference that can't be ignored. Showing standard and miniature breeds against each other is a disservice to both types and I believe competition between the two is partly to blame for Nigie breeders' tendency to exaggerate their goats' abilities. If they didn't have to rate their goats against standard breeds, perhaps it would be easier to evaluate them honestly and appreciate them for what they are and not for what they are compared to Saanens or Alpines or LaManchas.)


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## wheel-bear-o

Damfino said:


> Don't get me wrong--I like Nigerians and I wish they were everything people tell me they are. They're adorably cute and as common as dirt around here so if I thought they were excellent homestead goats I'd be the first to recommend them to beginners trying their hand at dairy goats for the first time. Unfortunately the pie-in-the-sky super-milker stories have burned a lot of beginners who ended up having to buy supplemental milk from people like me. I only keep one goat at a time in lactation over the winter and I always cut her back to once/day milking, yet I still have enough left over to sell. This level of performance is the minimum for what I consider to be a "working animal". When it comes to breed expectations, it's all about what the majority is capable of, not about what the exceptional individuals can do, and this is where I think Nigerian aficionados rather overestimate their breed's capabilities. I don't necessarily think it's intentional. After all, love is just a little bit blind.


I am not sure what you would need to hear to consider them adequate homestead animals by your sensibilities (and I'm not offended!!) but my first year with goats on our homestead we milked one single Nigerian doe and had all the milk we wanted for three hard-working adult people, plus cheese, yogurt, and soap. They are excellent homestead animals in my opinion, and even moreso for those who have physical limitations or space difficulties for handling full-sized stock, but I will say the main reason they're not for everyone is because the butterfat is actually a little high for those whole primarily need fluid milk. (My goats are capable of milking through, but I do dry them off in the winter because I personally don't like milking when it is subzero.)

That said, I stand by my statement that they do have a different range of strengths and weaknesses than a standard dairy breed and probably shouldn't be measured by the same metrics.


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## Morning Star Farm

No, I would not recommend Nigerians for orphaned calves! Though I wouldn't call that a true test of a dairy goat, I think it all depends on what you want. Some people want dairy goats, but wouldn't know what to do with 2 gallons per day from a Nubian. So a Nigerian is a perfect dairy goat for them. With their size, they tend to be easier to handle. Any goat can have a stubborn streak. Unfortunately, their size has also helped to mar their reputation. You are right when you say a lot of Nigerians aren't good producers. Because they are so easy and popular as pets, there are a lot more backyard Nigerian breeders than for the standard breeds. And they are _mostly _concerned only with making money from kids not breeding for good production. I see a lot of those. I'm not trying to knock people who only have a few goats for milk and kids, I'm talking about the ones who are just in it for $$. That is why it is more important to have registered, proven animals if you want milk, than it would be for a standard breed. In that, the Nigerian is inferior to a larger goat where you have a better chance of milk production from an unregistered goat. But there are still many, many affordable quality Nigerians who I consider great homestead goats.
And BTW, I would love to compete in a Grand Prix with my minis!! I think we'd have a good chance!  Just don't call them ponies, lol.


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## Calistar

So I don't understand where the disdain towards Nigerians in the show ring is coming from, or the opinion that they don't belong there because they can't keep up with the production of a full sized doe. Now, I am a performance herd but I do DHI and LA, no showing, so maybe I have it wrong. But isn't the point of a show to judge conformation? Obviously udder is a huge part of that but udder size/quality does not necessarily always reflect production. Why is it unacceptable for an exceptional ND to place higher than conformationally inferior standard breed, even if the standard may produce more? Don't we have the DHI program to judge their production?


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## Goat Whisperer

Damfino said:


> There's a very real proportional difference that can't be ignored. Showing standard and miniature breeds against each other is a disservice to both types and I believe competition between the two is partly to blame for Nigie breeders' tendency to exaggerate their goats' abilities. If they didn't have to rate their goats against standard breeds, perhaps it would be easier to evaluate them honestly and appreciate them for what they are and not for what they are compared to Saanens or Alpines or LaManchas.





Damfino said:


> You can't put a miniature horse in a Grand Prix jumping class even if _for his size_ he jumps higher than a full-sized horse.


That's why judging is based on the ADGA scorecard. 

Having won BSDIS, BJDIS, and BUIS with my Nigerians, I HIGHLY disagree.

I should mention, these shows are rather large shows, several with 600+ goats entered with herds that have produced National Champions.

I worked my rear-end off to get where I am at. ADGA has a unified scorecard. All the breeds are judged with this scorecard. I can tell you; the Nigerian breed has had nothing handed to them.

Since ALL the goats are judges against the unified scorecard, why should my doe not be eligible to compete for BIS? The Nigerian breed has grown leaps and bounds. I have seen herds make more progress in a short period than standard breeders who have been at it 20+ years.

Of course the majority of the other breeds will out-milk a Nigerian. I will not argue that.

However, if that is your criteria shouldn't Saanens win every BIS? The are the most productive breed after all. I have seen a many does with horribly attached udders from carrying too much milk. Your best udder is not necessarily the one that produces the most milk. I can't remember the last time I've seen a 11 year old Saanen in the ring. I have seen some spectacular Nigerians in the ring at that age, some even winning BIS. I have also seen Nubians sweep the show ring. Absolutely stunning animals. However I've also seen milk records of these animals only producing 7# of milk a day. Production records are important.

Lets not forget that it's been shown that Nigerians tend to have a lower SCC than the larger breeds. Hypercalcemia, toxemia/ketosis are also far rarer in Nigerians VS the larger breeds.

Every breed is different and has its advantages and disadvantages. The Nigerian Dwarf breeders have done a remarkable job, even well renowned judges have said the same thing. Yes, there are some issues right now but I can assure you it is not a representation of the breed. If people think Nigerians are the only breed with DNA issues popping up, they are lying to themselves. The other breeds tend to have a quieter crowd and honestly it's easier for a "breeder" to refund a $500 goat than a $5000 goat.


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## Sfgwife

Morning Star Farm said:


> No, I would not recommend Nigerians for orphaned calves! Though I wouldn't call that a true test of a dairy goat, I think it all depends on what you want. Some people want dairy goats, but wouldn't know what to do with 2 gallons per day from a Nubian. So a Nigerian is a perfect dairy goat for them. With their size, they tend to be easier to handle. Any goat can have a stubborn streak. Unfortunately, their size has also helped to mar their reputation. You are right when you say a lot of Nigerians aren't good producers. Because they are so easy and popular as pets, there are a lot more backyard Nigerian breeders than for the standard breeds. And they are _mostly _concerned only with making money from kids not breeding for good production. I see a lot of those. I'm not trying to knock people who only have a few goats for milk and kids, I'm talking about the ones who are just in it for $$. That is why it is more important to have registered, proven animals if you want milk, than it would be for a standard breed. In that, the Nigerian is inferior to a larger goat where you have a better chance of milk production from an unregistered goat. But there are still many, many affordable quality Nigerians who I consider great homestead goats.
> And BTW, I would love to compete in a Grand Prix with my minis!! I think we'd have a good chance!  Just don't call them ponies, lol.


To me... i have mini nubians and a pb nubian and had a fb nigi... the nigi was more difficult to handle for me when she did not want to do something i asked of her. She was so small that it was hard to me to hold her after i had caught her. Then to get her to wherever was a pita for me. I have neck and back degenerative disease and my minis and pb nubian are by far easier for me to handle than the nigi was. Even though they are bigger animals. Even sometimes one of my minis is a grump and she is hard to get to go where i need her to. The height is what made it hard for me with the bending.


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## Nommie Bringeruvda Noms

Oh, boy. Mine are Nigoras. In order get the breed to qualify, we have to get them to F6. All this mess with the ND DNA mess is quite possibly going to completely screw the pooch, for us too, isn't it?


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## Goats Rock

That is where the responsible breeder will shine- he (she) will further the Nigerians to become consistently good milkers, not just be a cute ornament in the barn. If they are messing with the registrations, that is slapping the responsible breeders in the face.


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## goathiker

The last show I was at all the Nigerian goats looked like fat dachshunds. Now that the breed is so concerned with body capacity, they are losing their length of leg. 
They are required to have enough clearance to put a milking machine under them. So,don't do that anymore. 
There were beautiful delicate nigies 20 years ago that truly reflected a miniature dairy goat. I haven't seen that much lately. 

The main thing about creating a breed is that they have to breed true within reasonable expectations. I would suggest backtracking to those older sires again and bringing the dairy quality back to the breed.


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## HMNS

The Ripple Effect is crazy!!! 

I will be getting ours tested for peace of mind...better to know where we stand sooner than later. Glad ADGA has finally started DNA-ing...better late than never!! 

I hope ADGA can come up with some type of solution in the near future, tho' I have no idea what that would be, for those animals/people that are affected. 

Good Luck Everyone!!


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## Damfino

Well, I tumped over the hornets nest and no mistake! Since I'm already in trouble anyway I might as well poke it a few more times. 



wheel-bear-o said:


> I am not sure what you would need to hear to consider them adequate homestead animals by your sensibilities (and I'm not offended!!) but my first year with goats on our homestead we milked one single Nigerian doe and had all the milk we wanted for three hard-working adult people, plus cheese, yogurt, and soap.


What I need to hear is that MOST (as in the MAJORITY) of Nigerians are capable of doing what yours did--produce 3-4 quarts/day (my estimation of the quantity requirements for 3 people) for as long as you needed milk. I'm glad you had a goat like that! I wish more people around here could find something that could even come close.



> They are excellent homestead animals in my opinion, and even moreso for those who have physical limitations or space difficulties for handling full-sized stock,


I think this is up for debate! The bending over gets old fast for people with back problems! 



> but I will say the main reason they're not for everyone is because the butterfat is actually a little high for those whole primarily need fluid milk. (My goats are capable of milking through, but I do dry them off in the winter because I personally don't like milking when it is subzero.)


There's no such thing as too much butterfat! People who don't like rich milk are weird anyway--we won't count that as a legitimate reason to not want Nigerians.


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## Damfino

Morning Star Farm said:


> No, I would not recommend Nigerians for orphaned calves!


Why not? If they're as excellent producers as everyone keeps telling me (a gallon/day!) then why wouldn't the _average_ Nigerian be just as good as any cast-off Alpine or Nubian from the sale barn? If they're to be considered a true working breed then they need to be able to keep up with actual, you know... _work_. That's just my opinion.



> Though I wouldn't call that a true test of a dairy goat, I think it all depends on what you want. Some people want dairy goats, but wouldn't know what to do with 2 gallons per day from a Nubian.


This is true. I've had a couple of 2 gallon/day milkers and I didn't like them. I prefer the nice 1 gallon/day milkers who I then cut back to ~2 quarts/day so I can be lazy and only milk in the morning (I hate twice/day milking schedules!). I don't have huge milk needs myself, yet the Nigerians I've encountered can't even keep up with that piffling little amount. I'd be lucky to get 1 quart/day from a single milking and that's just not adequate reward for the bother. If any of my girls dries up to 1 quart/day I give up and dry her off. If she does it again I'll sell her and keep one that can do better. So even though most people don't want a 2 gallon/day milker, it doesn't mean a Nigerian is automatically the perfect goat for them.



> Unfortunately, their size has also helped to mar their reputation. You are right when you say a lot of Nigerians aren't good producers. Because they are so easy and popular as pets, there are a lot more backyard Nigerian breeders than for the standard breeds.


This is a very astute observation. Unfortunately that practice mars not only the breed's reputation but their actual ability as well. This is possibly where the disconnect occurs between breeders who sing the praises of the Nigerian super-milker and those who actually buy them and have to deal with tiny, unmilkable teats, low production, and short lactation.



> That is why it is more important to have registered, proven animals if you want milk, than it would be for a standard breed. In that, the Nigerian is inferior to a larger goat where you have a better chance of milk production from an unregistered goat. But there are still many, many affordable quality Nigerians who I consider great homestead goats.


I agree with the first part, but I would really like to see proof of the last sentence. So far all the people I've known who purchased Nigies as homestead milkers have ended up having to either buy a lot more of them than they originally planned, or buy extra milk.



> And BTW, I would love to compete in a Grand Prix with my minis!! I think we'd have a good chance!  Just don't call them ponies, lol.


So why haven't you? There are no breed restrictions in Grand Prix. If your minis can jump a full course of 5'3" fences, not only do I want to SEE it, but it's way past time to get on the phone with Guiness Book of World Records and start getting some TV slots! I want video!!!


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## Damfino

Calistar said:


> So I don't understand where the disdain towards Nigerians in the show ring is coming from, or the opinion that they don't belong there because they can't keep up with the production of a full sized doe. Now, I am a performance herd but I do DHI and LA, no showing, so maybe I have it wrong. But isn't the point of a show to judge conformation? Obviously udder is a huge part of that but udder size/quality does not necessarily always reflect production. Why is it unacceptable for an exceptional ND to place higher than conformationally inferior standard breed, even if the standard may produce more? Don't we have the DHI program to judge their production?


I don't have any disdain toward Nigerians, I just think they're too different from standard breeds and they deserve their own division. Conformation is vitally important and I've never said otherwise, but actual _working_ ability is vital to be considered a _working_ animal. I'm very tired of hearing about the exceptions that prove the rule. Yes, there are exceptional Nigerians, and apparently 1 gallon/day is pretty exceptional for a Nigerian. I do not consider that exceptional for a working dairy animal. I consider it a baseline minimum (and it typically is for a standard breed). Before I personally would consider Nigerians to be a _working_ dairy breed, I would have to see the _average_ Nigerian delivering that amount. Until then, they are, in my opinion, a toy or hobby breed.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with toy/hobby breeds! How many of you folks own pet dogs? Probably most of you! And there is _nothing_ wrong with that. It's not an insult. It's just a different type, with perhaps a different purpose and different strengths. So what's wrong with having separate divisions for separate types? Once again, I'd love to _expand_ miniature dairy breed participation by seeing mini Alpines, Nubians, LaManchas, etc. added to the ADGA herd book. Those breeds are gaining in popularity and I think that's wonderful! I think they need to be recognized and allowed to compete in ADGA shows, but this is where I think it would be very helpful to have separate divisions for mini and standard breeds.


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## Morning Star Farm

Damfino said:


> So why haven't you? There are no breed restrictions in Grand Prix. If your minis can jump a full course of 5'3" fences, not only do I want to SEE it, but it's way past time to get on the phone with Guiness Book of World Records and start getting some TV slots! I want video!!!


Don't give me any new ideas!! We are already approved by Guinness to set two World Jumping Records! If you want to see pictures and videos, feel free to PM me! I have plenty!


Damfino said:


> Why not? If they're as excellent producers as everyone keeps telling me (a gallon/day!) then why wouldn't the _average_ Nigerian be just as good as any cast-off Alpine or Nubian from the sale barn? If they're to be considered a true working breed then they need to be able to keep up with actual, you know... _work_. That's just my opinion.


So what I meant by this is, there are some dairies around us who use dairy goats for orphaned calves and what they do is graft the calf right onto the goat. So, obviously a Nigerian would not be tall enough unless they were on a stand. Production wise, I'm not at all familiar with how much calves require, but good Nigerians should be fine there.


Damfino said:


> I don't have huge milk needs myself, yet the Nigerians I've encountered can't even keep up with that piffling little amount. I'd be lucky to get 1 quart/day from a single milking and that's just not adequate reward for the bother.


I totally agree with you here. I would not own a Nigerian who gave that little. Fortunately, I did not have to deal with any of those once I got beyond pet quality.


Damfino said:


> This is a very astute observation. Unfortunately that practice mars not only the breed's reputation but their actual ability as well. This is possibly where the disconnect occurs between breeders who sing the praises of the Nigerian super-milker and those who actually buy them and have to deal with tiny, unmilkable teats, low production, and short lactation.





Damfino said:


> I agree with the first part, but I would really like to see proof of the last sentence. So far all the people I've known who purchased Nigies as homestead milkers have ended up having to either buy a lot more of them than they originally planned, or buy extra milk.


Yes!! I think too many people are told how wonderful the Nigerian is, then sold a pet quality goat. It happened to me when I got started and I had to learn that not all Nigerians are like that. The good Nigerians are like a different breed and they are the truly wonderful milk producers.


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## Damfino

Goat Whisperer said:


> That's why judging is based on the ADGA scorecard.


By that argument, good milking Boers could be worked into the ADGA scorecard and that would make it "fair". But would adding Boers to the scorecard automatically make them comparable to other goats in the show? I don't think so. Most Boers can produce as much milk as a Nigerian, and a few can even rival the large dairy breeds. Does that put Boers on equal competitive footing with dairy goats? In my opinion, no.



> I worked my rear-end off to get where I am at. ADGA has a unified scorecard. All the breeds are judged with this scorecard. I can tell you; the Nigerian breed has had nothing handed to them.


I would never dispute this (and I haven't!). Honestly, I think most champions in the dairy goat world have worked their butts off regardless of breed. And I don't remotely think the Nigerian breed has had anything "handed" to them. If anything, they've had to work harder than anyone because there was no doubt a lot of prejudice against them in the beginning. The hard work is great and I wish I could personally observe that it has paid off for the breed as a whole, including the ones that trickle down to families who just need milk.



> Of course the majority of the other breeds will out-milk a Nigerian. I will not argue that.


That's actually my _entire_ argument. They are in a different league and should be judged differently as a result. (Just my opinion of course)

It's telling to me when I walk down the barn aisles after the show while people are milking out. Someone will milk two Nigerians into a pail before dumping, but the other breeds all fill the bucket or even need to have it dumped twice for one goat.



> However, if that is your criteria shouldn't Saanens win every BIS? The are the most productive breed after all.


No, and that would be ridiculous. I never said production was the _only_ criteria, nor did I even say anything close to that. I simply believe that production is a vital sticking point if we're talking about _working_ dairy goats.



> I have seen a many does with horribly attached udders from carrying too much milk. Your best udder is not necessarily the one that produces the most milk.


Of course it's not. But, you have to admit that it's much easier to carry around 2-4 lbs. of milk than 8-10 lbs. so observing the true test of the attachments can be rather difficult on a lower-production breed. Carrying weight is the true test of the attachments--not just their appearance. A weak ligament may not show unless you get that high production to test it.



> I can't remember the last time I've seen a 11 year old Saanen in the ring.


And you probably won't see one unless they can improve those feet and pasterns! People love the tall, laid-back Saanens for packgoats, but I'm always telling them, "Look at the feet!!"

I've seen most other breeds at one time or another still producing and even showing and winning well into their teens, but not Saanens. There is definitely more to a dairy goat than just the production and I hope no one gets the impression that that's all I care about, because it's absolutely not!



> Lets not forget that it's been shown that Nigerians tend to have a lower SCC than the larger breeds. Hypercalcemia, toxemia/ketosis are also far rarer in Nigerians VS the larger breeds.


Those are excellent traits.



> Every breed is different and has its advantages and disadvantages. The Nigerian Dwarf breeders have done a remarkable job, even well renowned judges have said the same thing.


I can't dispute that!



> Yes, there are some issues right now but I can assure you it is not a representation of the breed. If people think Nigerians are the only breed with DNA issues popping up, they are lying to themselves. The other breeds tend to have a quieter crowd and honestly it's easier for a "breeder" to refund a $500 goat than a $5000 goat.


I am not really interested in the Nigerian DNA issues. I didn't even know it was a particular problem in that breed. I assumed it was an issue with all the breeds. The representation I haven't liked in the Nigerian breed specifically is the proliferation of pet goats being sold as "dairy". It burns me up that this could be a problem with _any_ breed that people consider "dairy". If the Nigerian breed is going to step up and claim the title of "dairy goat" then a strong majority of them need to actually _deliver_ on that claim.


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## NDinKY

Damfino said:


> If the Nigerian breed is going to step up and claim the title of "dairy goat" then a strong majority of them need to actually _deliver_ on that claim.


If Nigerians are 1/3 the size of a standard dairy goat, eat 1/3 the feed of a standard dairy goat, and take up 1/3 the space of a standard dairy goat then why in the heck would you expect them to produce the same amount of milk as a standard dairy goat??? That's just not a fair comparison.

There are definitely a lot of pet quality NDs. We've not milk tested yet (hope to next year) but we have so much milk that a lot of it goes to our pigs. We simply cannot drink it all from our small herd.


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## goathiker

When I was young my dad had a girl that had a single buck kid and then milked for 9 years. She ranged just below or above a gallon a day depending on the time of year and she never saw a speck of grain in her entire life. 

I have one right now that I could start milking and she would produce well without ever kidding. 

I've never seen a Nigerian that can milk though more than 8 months...


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## Morning Star Farm

goathiker said:


> I've never seen a Nigerian that can milk though more than 8 months...


For milk testing, many Nigerian does stay in milk for 305 days prior to drying off for kidding. And yes, I have seen some that can milk through, but usually they are dried off to give them a rest before kidding. For people who didn't want kids though, they just kept milking. A lot of that is from really strong genetics of heavy milkers who just don't want to dry off. I had a few like that.


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## Damfino

NDinKY said:


> If Nigerians are 1/3 the size of a standard dairy goat, eat 1/3 the feed of a standard dairy goat, and take up 1/3 the space of a standard dairy goat then why in the heck would you expect them to produce the same amount of milk as a standard dairy goat??? That's just not a fair comparison.


I actually don't expect them to produce as much as a standard goat and I never said that I did. What I DO expect is for the majority of them to be able to consistently produce enough milk to at least be on par with a _substandard_ dairy goat. That is something I have not (yet) seen. I certainly hope to see it in the future!


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## Goatzrule

I think the biggest problem with Nigerians and which makes them lose credibility are the pet breeders. In no other breed of goat do you have so many irresponsible breeders breeding just because they can. There is becoming such an overflow of Nigerians and it is quite gross. Pet breeders will breed anything together to get more color, to get more babies. Sure her udder's dragging but she makes cute babies. Most newbies get Nigerians and not put in any effort to actually learn responsible breeding and put no interest in the babies they pump out after they leave their farm. 
There are some great ND breeders out there and great goats that compete with the best but the amount of scum that is clogging up the dairy industry is making them lose their credibility. No wonder no one can afford to breed decent goats when you have color breeders selling their kids for $400+. Now dont get me wrong there is a difference between backyard hobby breeders and these kid mills. The hobby farms are still making sure the animals they produce are decent, they are spending within their means to find a good buck even if they dont intend to go to shows with it. They are doing their research and maintaining a good relationship with buyers/sellers etc. 
The mill breeders arent, they are the ones who buy their first goat and breed it a month later. They are selling their kids to just about anyone without vetting them first. They have 80 (you get the idea) goats on half an acre but "its fine cause they are a small breed." Giving away kids hours after birth because they just wanted to watch the birth but not take care of the animals after that. Sells every male born on their farm as a breeding buck even if it would be better suited as meat and breeds every doe no matter how she looks/acts. The shows only take this long because every bad ND breeder who thinks its their job to reinvent what conformation should look like brings their herd of 80, with their udder swinging and pasterns dragging. 
This is why Nigerians dont get as much respect. Its not the good breeders, there are plenty of good breeders that I would love if they stuck around and have beautiful animals. 
This mill behavior would not fly in the standard world, although there are some breeders who qualify. Most standard breeders have no problem culling does and helping new breeders get contacted with good genetics to build up. Checking those breeders that have practices that can be improved. 
If you havent gathered, I am very opinionated on this.


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## Goatzrule

Its not fair to say that they dont also deserve to be in ADGA shows because ADGA isnt just a standard registry and Nigerians had to go through the same process that every other breed went through, the same one the Guernsey went through and every breed to come after it. They are held to the same judging and standard. A well bred Nigerian should look no different than a sannen or alpine but they dont anymore. But to be fair most breeds havent been looking like they should recently. We are creating obese animal and that is a WHOLE 'nother rant.


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## alwaystj9

I breed grade minis. I don't show and my average experiences with show people have been about 75% negative. I do know and buy/sell with some excellent ND show people, love them & their goats very much. I have a steady, proven market, I have repeat customers and I have good goats. And I have an affordable product, regularly available and I stand by for questions, advice, and ocassionally, returns...
I respect people who work and milk and show but it's not for me or for a lot of people. Please do not run the pet owner, the new farmsteader and the pasture ornament people off the rails. 
I do agree that many goats are bred that shouldn't be. I have a problem finding non-breeding homes for problem does. I do band 95% of my bucklings. 
I have had show people show up at my gate with papers in hand hunting a goat to match for their kid to show. I have tried to be respectful of buyers whining that I should only run registered stock. I refuse to sell a same age unbanded buckling with a doeling.
This issue is pretty much the same in all species of pets & livestock. Whether it is backyard poultry (Extra Roosters!), mini pigs, Mini horses -- heck, all horses right now. Too many people breeding for profit.
Anywhere someone sees a financial advantage someone takes advantage: a coworker bought an expensive French bulldog puppy for her "Golden V*g**a" because he can get $500 apiece for puppies!
It comes down to ethics, compassion and education. All of those need to be taught.


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## AlabamaGirl

alwaystj9 said:


> A coworker bought an expensive French bulldog puppy for her "Golden V*g**a" because he can get $500 apiece for puppies!


Is this really thing in the dog-breeding world? To each his own XD!!


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## Cold Creek Minis

Goat Whisperer said:


> That's why judging is based on the ADGA scorecard.
> @Goat Whisperer , there you are! I have been searching for you and SBC. Why did you leave? Baymule says to tell you that you and SBC are missed as well. I have been searching for posts from y'all on BYH and find nothing. How is Rue? I was looking forward to this year's kid posts and pictures. Is SBC on here? If so she must have changed her name like I did.
> 
> Having won BSDIS, BJDIS, and BUIS with my Nigerians, I HIGHLY disagree.
> 
> I should mention, these shows are rather large shows, several with 600+ goats entered with herds that have produced National Champions.
> 
> I worked my rear-end off to get where I am at. ADGA has a unified scorecard. All the breeds are judged with this scorecard. I can tell you; the Nigerian breed has had nothing handed to them.
> 
> Since ALL the goats are judges against the unified scorecard, why should my doe not be eligible to compete for BIS? The Nigerian breed has grown leaps and bounds. I have seen herds make more progress in a short period than standard breeders who have been at it 20+ years.
> 
> Of course the majority of the other breeds will out-milk a Nigerian. I will not argue that.
> 
> However, if that is your criteria shouldn't Saanens win every BIS? The are the most productive breed after all. I have seen a many does with horribly attached udders from carrying too much milk. Your best udder is not necessarily the one that produces the most milk. I can't remember the last time I've seen a 11 year old Saanen in the ring. I have seen some spectacular Nigerians in the ring at that age, some even winning BIS. I have also seen Nubians sweep the show ring. Absolutely stunning animals. However I've also seen milk records of these animals only producing 7# of milk a day. Production records are important.
> 
> Lets not forget that it's been shown that Nigerians tend to have a lower SCC than the larger breeds. Hypercalcemia, toxemia/ketosis are also far rarer in Nigerians VS the larger breeds.
> 
> Every breed is different and has its advantages and disadvantages. The Nigerian Dwarf breeders have done a remarkable job, even well renowned judges have said the same thing. Yes, there are some issues right now but I can assure you it is not a representation of the breed. If people think Nigerians are the only breed with DNA issues popping up, they are lying to themselves. The other breeds tend to have a quieter crowd and honestly it's easier for a "breeder" to refund a $500 goat than a $5000 goat.


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## goathiker

AlabamaGirl said:


> Is this really thing in the dog-breeding world? To each his own XD!!


French Bulldogs can't give birth naturally anymore, She bought a dog that will have to have a cesarean every time lol.


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## Damfino

goathiker said:


> French Bulldogs can't give birth naturally anymore, She bought a dog that will have to have a cesarean every time lol.


I know, isn't that sad? This is what comes of people breeding too intensely toward certain traits, and rewarding those traits at shows. I've never really been a fan of conformation/beauty pageant type shows. They are what brought us the heavy-set Quarter Horses with teacup hooves that can't stand up to actual use. And Arabians with faces so cartoonishly dished they look broken. And cats and dogs with faces so squished-in they can't breath or eat properly. Why do people tend to gravitate toward extremes? There's nothing wrong with interesting-looking pets, but animals shouldn't be bred to the point where they look like caricatures of themselves and can't even function in normal, healthy ways.


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## Goats Rock

German Shepherd dogs used to stand up on their back legs, Now they look as if squatting all the time. Our family has had German Shep since 1900's! Grandfather had one in his baby photos in 1902. Every dog was standing up square- like a horse! (which is why grandparents loved them- they always rode).. 

Hollywierd has ruined so many animals, especially dogs.......


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## Goatzrule

I honestly think the quarter horse association is preparing for the opening of horse slaughter houses again. It truly is the only thing those horses are good for.


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## Ranger1

Goatzrule said:


> I honestly think the quarter horse association is preparing for the opening of horse slaughter houses again. It truly is the only thing those horses are good for.


You mean quarter horse halter show horses? I've seen plenty of very useful ranch QH


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## Goatzrule

Yes I mean the halter horses


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## Goats Rock

They look pretty, but "pretty is as pretty does"! I prefer working animals over show any day!


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## Nommie Bringeruvda Noms

Goatzrule said:


> I honestly think the quarter horse association is preparing for the opening of horse slaughter houses again. It truly is the only thing those horses are good for.


I'm pretty sure it's illegal, in the USA, for food. More likely, glue - and hides.


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## goathiker

Huh, they all get shipped to south America right now. Once they yank ivermectin, they will available for sale here again, or at least some people will be eating them out of desperation. 
Heck, they will probably be eating anything out of desperation in about 5 more years.


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## Goatzrule

Nommie Bringeruvda Noms said:


> I'm pretty sure it's illegal, in the USA, for food. More likely, glue - and hides.


I know its illegal currently, thats why I said that once it opens up again.


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## Goatzrule

Horse slaughter is a better fate then getting stuck in a cattle trailer bound for mexico


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## mariella

Will this new regulation help get around service memos? 
I really hate that I can't put my girls' sire on their registrations just because some stupid human WONT answer my call or messages. It's infuriating that I have 2 beautiful PB Nubian doelings that can't be registered just because some stupid human "doesn't want too" 
The ADGA wont accept them as PB even if I got both parents DNA typed and them DNA typed. Why even have them DNA typed? There should be a way around it!


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## Nommie Bringeruvda Noms

Goatzrule said:


> I know its illegal currently, thats why I said that once it opens up again.


Oops - sorry I missed that part. ops2:


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## alwaystj9

I am not advocating horse slaughter but it did support horse prices. Right now it's a mess, not everyone is able or willing to keep a horse until it passes naturally. Also this covid economy on top of increasing feed prices and the development of farm/hay/pasture land is killing the horse industry. Once Cookie dies (31 this year) I will probably not get another. I have no where to ride. Each year hay is harder and harder to source. I would take on another retiree but many are walking vet bills (except for only 4 teeth & claustrophobia, Cookie is healthy) or it's some kid going to college trying to find a free place to keep from selling her barrel horse. I won't take a horse that comes with a kid...
Too many horses out there not worth any $ and too few people to support them.


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## AndersonRanch

alwaystj9 said:


> I am not advocating horse slaughter but it did support horse prices. Right now it's a mess, not everyone is able or willing to keep a horse until it passes naturally. Also this covid economy on top of increasing feed prices and the development of farm/hay/pasture land is killing the horse industry. Once Cookie dies (31 this year) I will probably not get another. I have no where to ride. Each year hay is harder and harder to source. I would take on another retiree but many are walking vet bills (except for only 4 teeth & claustrophobia, Cookie is healthy) or it's some kid going to college trying to find a free place to keep from selling her barrel horse. I won't take a horse that comes with a kid...
> Too many horses out there not worth any $ and too few people to support them.


A lot of people don't think of this side of things. To put down and dispose of a horse is a lot of money, a lot of people can't keep a roof over their head let alone feed a horse. We have horses dumped around here left and right. Some are happy endings where they are found and adopted, some not so much. Tangled in fences and cut up so badly they can't be saved, hit by cars and a slow death plus death and injury to people, slowly starve to death or can't find water. At least with butchering it will be a fast death and the body would go to something useful. If I ever had to be in a situation like that I would honestly feel much better sending mine to slaughter then to dump. But I think my lucky stars every day I will never have to make that decision and they live here until their last breath.


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## Damfino

Meat is meat, whether it comes from a cow, a horse, a goat, sheep, pig, chicken, or even a dog or cat. Americans tend to look down our noses at people who eat horse meat or (heaven forbid!) dog or cat meat, but to me it's way more important that the animal is treated humanely on the way to slaughter than to dither about what happens to the meat afterwards. Nature's way is for all flesh to feed back to the earth. 

In England it was traditional for old foxhunters to be put down and fed to the hounds. This was considered more noble than burying them in the ground, and it was certainly less wasteful of a valuable meat resource. The horse that died was considered to still be "running with the hounds". I personally find it wasteful that horse slaughter is banned. There is a lot of good meat on horses, not to mention the glue and gelatin that can be manufactured from their hooves and bones. Using the meat is more dignified than dumping it and letting worms and maggots have it.


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## alwaystj9

I am trying to pre-plan for Cookie's demise. I actually called a zoo and a wild animal park but since mad cow, state/federally funded animal sanctuaries won't take either dead animals nor let me have her trailered and put down there. It's either the dump or burial.


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## Goats Rock

alwaystj9- Can you get someone with a backhoe to come if/when the sad day comes that your horse crosses the Rainbow Bridge?

We had to get a backhoe to dig big holes and put the horses in. Some day, they will dig down and find many horse skeletons. (over 100 years of horses! Probably 15 or 20 horses there). Our old cows went to the knacker, then those went by the wayside. Getting rid of unwanted horses is hard. I hate the thought of slaughter houses, but, one bad day and a life time of good far outweighs the current terrible truck ride to Mexico and those slaughter houses.


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## alwaystj9

Oh yes, I had to call in to work once - with a dead horse - and I spent that whole morning calling around until I found someone with a backhoe & trailer that would fit through my front gate. That was when Cookie's brother, Alf, died. It just seemed such a waste, you know?


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## Goats Rock

Regarding DNA- How do you do the DNA test for a goat- Can someone walk me through it? (this may have been already posted, but I can't find it and
don't understand this new format- sorry) I was supposed to get the DNA test for a buck that I had purchased from a lady- apparently there is some
question as to his parentage! The US mail finally got the paperwork through to me after 2 months! Thanks!


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## Ranger1

Goats Rock said:


> Regarding DNA- How do you do the DNA test for a goat- Can someone walk me through it? (this may have been already posted, but I can't find it and
> don't understand this new format- sorry) I was supposed to get the DNA test for a buck that I had purchased from a lady- apparently there is some
> question as to his parentage! The US mail finally got the paperwork through to me after 2 months! Thanks!


If you’re doing it through the ADGA, you need to go online and order the DNA test through them. They email you some paperwork to print off, along with instructions on how to collect the hair sample and mail it to the lab. 
It’s super easy, and as mentioned above, you just need a hair sample.


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## Goats Rock

I have all the packet, just wanted actual instructions from someone that has done it. 
ADGA is so screwed up right now, I'm waiting until they settle down to even send 
anything to a lab. ADGA would probably lose their copy!


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## Calistar

If you have the packet, all you need is an envelope and some needle nose pliers. I think they want about 40 hairs with the root. Easiest place is to grab it from the knees or around the hoof. Put the hairs directly into the envelope. I think ADGA will have sent you an identifying sticker in your packet to put on the envelope. It's been a few months since I had my DNA testing done, but I think there were 3 copies of the papers. One was for me to keep. The other got signed and sent back to ADGA. The third was signed and accompanied the hair samples, which were sent to UC Davis. It took about a week and a half and then I got an email from ADGA with the results. But with everything that's going on with ADGA right now, I don't know what to expect anymore. I just bought a kid from a breeder who had pulled DNA on the kid's parents and sent it in a month prior and was still waiting....


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## Nommie Bringeruvda Noms

Might I ask what's going on with the ADGA? Is it more than the covid issues everyone has been struggling with?


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## Ranger1

Nommie Bringeruvda Noms said:


> Might I ask what's going on with the ADGA? Is it more than the covid issues everyone has been struggling with?


It’s nothing to do with COVID. They recently rolled out a new online system, and it was tons and tons of issues, making it practically unusable. Unfortunately, it’s not just the member system, but the ADGA staff system as well so even going old school and mailing your paperwork in sometimes isn’t working as the staff still needs to process it on the new site. 
Hopefully they’ll get it figured out-it looks like it’ll have some really cool new features once the kinks are ironed out.


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## Nommie Bringeruvda Noms

Oh, thank heavens! I'm really glad it's technical, not drama!


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## Goats Rock

Thank you Calistar!

Sure is a bad time for ADGA to be trying a new system! All the new baby goats being born, actual shows, etc. How can one show
if ADGA doesn't even have their fax machine up and running for the kid papers! I hope they get it ironed out soon!


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## NDinKY

If anyone needs to order DNA tests while their website drama is going on, ADGA has a workaround form to let you order and send to lab. You just have to make sure you have the funds in your account then they send you forms to print out and send in with the sample to the lab. 

We get pliers and glove up, clean them with alcohol, wrap in masking tape, then pull hair making sure to get root bulbs, then put hair in a marked envelope. Between goats we change gloves, alcohol the pliers, and new masking tape. 

I’m sending all kids with paper registration and advising buyers to hold off on submitting until this mess with their website is resolved. Going to hold off on registering my keepers too.


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