# Perplexed by our Nubians



## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Hello, I have hung around this forum on and off over the past few months, but finally joined today. I am posting out of frustration and perplexity with our Nubian does.
We have two milking Nubian does, standard size, and are getting about 5 pints of milk per day between the two of them on 2X per day milking. We bought 'Sugar' as a FF in April with two kids at her side and 'Hope' (about 6 years old) kidded in May with a single doeling. Both are rail-thin, and we are at our wits' end trying to persuade them to eat more. We run them with our sheep during the day in a rotational grazing system (FRESH paddock EVERY day during the summer) and feed them hay inside at night. It got to the point where they were all but refusing our home-grown hay (mostly orchardgrass with a little clover in it) and everyone says you need alfalfa to make goats milk, so I went out and bought alfalfa. They pick and root through it, eating what they want; but that seems to be very little. This is DECENT HAY, green, leafy, no noticeable mold. I've taken to feeding hay from three different bales, but it seems to make little difference. I clean it out of their feeder in the AM and feed it to the sheep, so they are getting new hay every evening.
'Hope' gets into this thing every summer where she quits eating grain, and this year is no different. Milk production drops sharply when this behavior starts. I give her all the grain she wants, she picks through it for awhile, then I take it away and give her oats and she picks through them for awhile. 'Sugar' is a grain vacuum and would jump off a tall cliff if she thought there was grain at the bottom. She was getting about 3 lb. per day (2 lb. goat feed & 1 lb oats), but I cut out the oats when I started seeing undigested oats in her stool.
We think we have some parasites, have seen some small roundworms in 'Sugar's' stool. I hit her hard (twice per day for a week) with diatomaceous earth and Molly's #2 formula. This, in connection with the alfalfa hay has helped production somewhat. I'm out of the Molly's, more ordered. If I don't see major improvement in 'Hope' I guess I'll go the chemical route and see what happens. Everyone says minerals are so important, so I bought Purina goat mineral last winter. The goats ate it for awhile, but barely ever touch it now. I tried sheep mineral for awhile, thought they maybe wanted a change, no joy. I cleaned out the feeder, thought maybe the cats or a rodent had been in there, same thing.
I read 1820 lb. on a 284 day lactation as an average for nubians, so I don't buy the "nubians don't milk" argument. Honestly, we would be thrilled with half to two thirds of that. I read about people running the kids with the mothers during the day and milking once per day, and it all sounds great--for the kids and for the people! But we expect these girls to work for a living, and it's honestly just not worth the effort to raise goats for a measly quart-to-three pints from two goats when we try milking once per day! But we would sure love to make it work!!
Something seems wrong, and I'm not sure if it's our goats or our management. (Both??) Both goats need to be culled (Sugar's udder is meaty, lopsided, and produces very little and she spends her days pacing the fence and screaming. My wife is sick of Hope body-slamming all the other animals around). I would like to hope for better things from their three doelings, but past experience leaves me with doubts. My wife raised sheep commercially for 30 years and goats on the side for the past 20. I have six years of experience on commercial (cow) dairy farms, so we are not total idiots at farming. But we are doing something very wrong with these goats.
This post is too long already. I'll wait for responses and post more information in follow-up posts if necessary. Thanks for reading!!


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

I'd start out with a fecal, I know you said you saw roundworms, but to get a count and rule out other worms... also to see if you actually need a chemical wormer, I have heard great things about Molly's and LOH herbal dewormer though!


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Yeah, it's probably time for a fecal. I know the vet said Hope was loaded pretty heavily last summer when we had her tested, so we've been thinking it's probably an issue again. I've read good things about the Molly's too, but this is the first time trying it. We SO hate dumping the milk for a week when using chemicals!
By some of your other posts, it looks as if you are in N MN and even drier than we are. Pastures here are really dried up, haven't seen it this dry since 1988. We are shipping half of the sheep on Thursday, nothing to feed them anymore unless we go out and buy a lot of hay.


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Yes I'm in NW Minnesota! It's super dry here having trouble getting hay, luckily we found some!


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

creeksideflock said:


> Yeah, it's probably time for a fecal. I know the vet said Hope was loaded pretty heavily last summer when we had her tested, so we've been thinking it's probably an issue again. I've read good things about the Molly's too, but this is the first time trying it. We SO hate dumping the milk for a week when using chemicals!
> By some of your other posts, it looks as if you are in N MN and even drier than we are. Pastures here are really dried up, haven't seen it this dry since 1988. We are shipping half of the sheep on Thursday, nothing to feed them anymore unless we go out and buy a lot of hay.


Sorry about your sheep! It's too bad, but they have to eat so what can you do!


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

I agree with getting a fecal run. A heavy parasite load can make them go off their feed. I have run into that issue before. Probiotics wouldn't be a bad idea, either. Have they started their heat cycles? My girls sometimes go a little crazy (I have Nubians, too), and do all sorts of weird things when they're cycling. The stress might make a dent in their production. 
Did you buy them from someone who actually raises dairy goats? For some reason, in my area, people raise Nubians but aren't actually serious about milking them. So there are a lot of mediocre milkers out there. They're either not bred for milk, or they weren't handled correctly during their first couple of lactations to make sure that they developed good udder capacity and could sustain a long lactation. Fortunately, I had enough doelings this year that I'm hoping I won't have to go goat shopping again for a long time, and I can raise what will hopefully be productive does with good udders.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I haven't read anybody else's responses so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant. 😅 

First off, welcome to the forum!

Okay so how many paddocks are you rotating between? It could be that if you have too few, the parasites aren't dying by the time you get cycled around. Do your does' coats look course/rough? Have you checked their FAMACHA (inner eyelid color). A fecal is always a good idea when you are suspicious of worms and seeing skinny goats. The only worm you would really see in their poop would be tape worm sections. Other worms are not expressed in feces. Molly's herbals is not the best herb brand out there. Lots of people don't find it affective. I'd recommend Land of Havilah or Fir Meadows for herbal dewormers. Daily garlic cloves are a very helpful addition for the fight against parasites.

As far as minerals go, can you get sweetlix meat maker goat minerals? Lots of goats really like the taste. You want to put out only as much as they will eat in a day or the minerals will collects moisture and the goats won't like them. Sheep minerals don't have enough copper for the goats, but make sure your sheep can't get into the goat minerals because they would be bad for your sheep.

It is very possible that your girls are not genetically well bred enough to produce the amount of milk you want. Are they purebred, registered stock? Another factor could be in fact nutrition. I am unable to get alfalfa hay, but it is true that goats need a calcium source in order to produce milk. I give my girls alfalfa pellets on the stand instead of hay. There are also certain feeds that are formulated for milking goats that are higher in calcium. I use Blue Seal Premium Dairy Goat Pellet which is high in fat, protein, and calcium. 

You could try adding a few things to their grain ration to encourage them to eat more on the stand and gain weight/produce more. I have a doe who is picky in the summer when it's hot so I know the frustration that that can bring.
Calf Manna (up to a cup mixed into their grain ration)
Dyne (This is a liquid that is super sweet and some goats love some goats hate. Great for weight gain.) 
Wheat Germ Oil (I'm a wheat germ super fan. One tsp a day has done amazing things for my girls)
Black Oil Sunflower Seeds (I give a quarter cup twice a day and I would highly recommend adding this if you don't already feed it)


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Fecal tests on both does will be in the works ASAP. The worms I saw were white, about an inch long, disgusting squirmy things in a fresh poop.

I don't think the milking does are cycling yet, the yearling that has never been bred yes, but not seeing the milkers cycle yet. Genetics are an important question. 'Hope' is a papered American Nubian that supposedly has good bloodlines (would need to ask my wife for details). 'Sugar' is supposedly a papered American Nubian, but we have never actually gotten the papers from the previous owner. Questions to breeders and sellers about milk production produce vague answers. Except for a few commercial dairies, I know of only one other family keeping goats for family milk purposes. The rest, if they milk at all, milk once per day for a few months until they get tired of it, then dry the goats off. They are clueless how much they produce. It's frustrating. We need a buck, and I'm clueless where to start. We need an animal with decent, working lines behind it, but I don't necessarily mean "show" lines. We have a young family, it is hard to find the time to drive several hours or out of state to look at a goat.

I do think nutrition somehow plays into this. If they were fat, I would say the production issues are all genetic. I don't feel we know what type of genetics we have since they are such picky eaters.

I am going to try to get a look at their inner eyelids tonight. I did some reading on FAMACHA, and it looks fascinating, also looks political since one seems to need formal training before they will even sell you a score card. I don't envision that happening soon with my schedule.

We'll try the sunflowers, have read a lot of positive things about them.

The pasture is divided into long corridors and sub-divided by electrified netting. Adequate rest for parasite control is something I've wondered about; 3-4 weeks gives optimum forage quality for re-grazing (longer and the sheep especially trample and waste it badly), but longer is better for parasite control. The animals are currently on the hay field (has not been grazed since September 2020), but will be out of feed there in a week or two and will need to get back to the other pasture.

I'm not overly attached to Nubians. My wife is afraid of bad tasting milk with other breeds because of past negative experience, but I'm at the point of being willing to try a different breed or even cross breed. I want some ability to forage, decent production (would be thrilled with a gallon per goat per day!) gentle disposition (Sugar knocks my 2-year old down!) and the ability to at least partially utilize our home-grown forage. Maybe I'm asking too much . . .


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Nigerian dwarfs are known for their small size but heavy milking production and good tasting milk! If you were interested in a different breed. Look up them some  

As far as the worms you saw, could be sections of tapeworms as suggested, or they have a heavy load  I know with cats roundworms can pass through feces from a heavy load, goats not so sure ...


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

K.B. said:


> Nigerian dwarfs are known for their small size but heavy milking production and good tasting milk! If you were interested in a different breed. Look up them some
> 
> As far as the worms you saw, could be sections of tapeworms as suggested, or they have a heavy load  I know with cats roundworms can pass through feces from a heavy load, goats not so sure ...


Although I'm not sure about a gallon a day  sounds like you want more of a big Alpine


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

creeksideflock said:


> I'm not overly attached to Nubians. My wife is afraid of bad tasting milk with other breeds because of past negative experience, but I'm at the point of being willing to try a different breed or even cross breed. I want some ability to forage, decent production (would be thrilled with a gallon per goat per day!) gentle disposition (Sugar knocks my 2-year old down!) and the ability to at least partially utilize our home-grown forage. Maybe I'm asking too much . . .


So, I know a lot of people are happy with Nubians and there are those that produce a gallon a day, but I have to mention kinders because I have them and they have been terrific for me. I have one doe that produces a gallon a day and another that gives 3/4 of a gallon at peak. They are a mid sized goat, so very easy handle. They are more of a dual purpose breed than nigerians or nubians and they have a tendency to have multiple kids (up to five!) so more kids to sell.

Where are you located? If you are interested I could maybe point you to some breeders.


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Maybe someone would let you try their milk


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

creeksideflock said:


> Maybe I'm asking too much . . .


By the way you are not asking too much. I know plenty of people on the forum that have goats that meet your goals. 😉


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

Can I ask do you know their pedigree? My heavy producing does would make around 1 to 2 gallons a day. Yes one doe was closer to 2 gallons a day during her peak production. 

So I would also suggest like the above.
Fecal, worming, calf manna, boss (black oil sunflower seed), loose minerals and checking eyelid colors. I can't believe they charge for cards. Used to the local ag. Agent would come out train people for free and give a card. 

I think you said that they have lopsided udders. Have you seen self nursing? I had one doe do it before and some spicy teat rub stopped her from self nursing. 

Hope you have some luck. Sorry had a long day at work and tried to read through all the comments above


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would start them on Replamin Plus. You do a 5 day loader dose then once a week. It is 5cc. Still put the loose mineral out. Sounds like you also need a cobalt block. They could be mineral deficient especially copper and selenium. You may also want to consider alfalfa pellets instead of hay. What you put into the goat is what you get in the bucket.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

If your sheep are doing well have you thought about a few East Frisian or St Croix for milk?

Bad tasting milk is from bad mineral management. Lack of milk can be also.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

As far as the worms you saw, could be sections of tapeworms as suggested, or they have a heavy load  I know with cats roundworms can pass through feces from a heavy load, goats not so sure ...
[/QUOTE]

They are definitely some type of round worm, and they definitely came from the goat. She deposited on my water hose that I was using for the garden next to her paddock, almost a diarrhea type deposit, and there they were, about 8-10 of them.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

So I have gotten quite a few responses, appreciate everyone's effort. 

I suspect parasites are a much bigger problem than we thought. Almost everyone is bringing them up, and I did more research into them, and it sounds as if goats are one of the most parasite-susceptible animals anywhere. We are going to dig deeply into this one and I will update as I learn more.

I'll ask my wife to dig out Hope's pedigree, maybe I'll post it here and some of you can help me understand what all I'm looking at. I got really turned off by the livestock show business and registered stock people to the point I think I threw out the good along with the bad. We MAY have an image of Sugar's pedigree--previous owner was supposed to transfer the papers, but never did. My wife may have an image of it on her phone, I'll need to ask.

I'm quite certain we don't have a self-nursing issue with Sugar's lopsided udder. It was a nice-looking, even if small, udder when we got her; but we noticed very quickly that it just didn't 'milk out'--very congested. That resolved somewhat, but what we are left with is basically junk. It's really hard to describe, but the one half milks down OK if you massage it a lot. The other half never, ever looks milked out and feels as if there is strange, folded-up tissue inside it. That's a really poor description, but it's the best way I can think of to describe it. I have wondered if it was possibly destroyed my mastitis very early on, perhaps even before she kidded.

Kinders, Nigerian Dwarfs, it all sounds interesting. Keep the ideas coming. Gentle and calm are important to us, and what we have is not either of those. I realize that some of what we are dealing with is 'just goats,' but I'm hoping that not ALL goats are like ours. It's not like they are mean or unfriendly, just high-strung and quite frankly a little hard to handle. I have dreams of our children being able to help with milking and chores in a few years, but wow! It takes adult strength to stop these goats when they want to go somewhere we don't want them to go, to make them go somewhere they would rather not go, and to deal with the kicking and prancing about when they would rather not be milked!

I think the suggestions to improve our mineral situation may be warranted as well, but it feels a little overwhelming knowing where to start. We used to just feed everything sheep mineral. I added the Purina goat mineral because I read that goats really need the additional copper. (We keep it AWAY from the sheep, it's the first thing they eat when they get into a goat pen!!) When they quit eating it this spring, I wasn't sure what to think. I don't think our soil is TERRIBLE, but is was farmed hard for many years before we bought the farm, so I'm sure there are imbalances and deficiencies even in our best forage.

Someone asked where we are, answer is west-central Wisconsin, about 2 hours east of Minneapolis-St. Paul.


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Oh I'm originally from St. Paul! Funny you mention it! With the minerals are you leaving it out? Sometimes they absorb the moisture and the goats get picky. I would just add enough that they eat it up each night! Sounds like your doing your research as well! They may just be finicky goats lol not much you can do but try and work with them. If they are not quite making your goals maybe sell and start fresh with some that were handled more as youngsters!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Okay, first of all I just want to say that we are very happy to help you through all of your questions, so ask away! 🙂

There are plenty of registered stock that is bred, not for show, but for quality of animal. The fact that they are registered doesn't automatically mean they are good stock, it just means they are in fact pure bred. See what I am saying?

Here's the kinder goat breeder map, if you'd like to see if there are any close to you:Breeders - Kinder Goat Breeders Association

I wonder if it would be a good idea for you to get a nigerian buck. Nigerian bucks bred to nubian does create the "Mini Nubian" breed. If you can find a nigerian with good milking lines he could produce daughters that would improve your does. It sounds to me like you want a goat that is smaller and easier to handle. With a nigerian buck you could then later on decide if you wanted to go forward with mini nubians or get out of the nubians entirely and go for nigerians. This gives you lots of options for the future, more nubians, mini nubians and nigereians.

As far as minerals go you need to start with a good loose mineral. Purina goat mineral are not good enough for some goats, but some do okay on it. Can you get sweetlix meat maker goat minerals anywhere? I would recommend getting replamin plus gel and giving them 5cc weekly to get their levels up. If you can get your hands on some Thorvin Kelp and it's not too pricey for you, Kelp is awesome for mineral deficiencies too.

We'll help you figure out a deworming plan once you get fecal results. We have to know what we are dealing with first.😉


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> Okay, first of all I just want to say that we are very happy to help you through all of your questions, so ask away!
> 
> There are plenty of registered stock that is bred, not for show, but for quality of animal. The fact that they are registered doesn't automatically mean they are good stock, it just means they are in fact pure bred. See what I am saying?
> 
> ...


I LOVE the idea of mini nubians just had to throw that in here!


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## DDFN (Jul 31, 2011)

creeksideflock said:


> So I have gotten quite a few responses, appreciate everyone's effort.
> 
> I suspect parasites are a much bigger problem than we thought. Almost everyone is bringing them up, and I did more research into them, and it sounds as if goats are one of the most parasite-susceptible animals anywhere. We are going to dig deeply into this one and I will update as I learn more.
> 
> ...


If you even remember the registered name we can look them up online if with adga. 

Sidenote from what you are saying about the udder feeling. Have you tried to use a warm compress with peppermint oil diluted with either almond oil or veggie oil?


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

To me, it almost sounds as if Sugar could have scarring in her udder from a bout with mastitis. 
Pedigrees don't always guarantee milk in the bucket, and usually add extra money to the goats' price tag...and rightfully so, as pedigrees oftentimes represent a lifetime of careful selective breeding. However, the worst milker I've had on my place so far was a registered doe. Beautiful udder, flighty temperament and mediocre production. I sold her and kept her kids. If you just want a solid family milker, you may be able to find one that wouldn't win any show ring prizes but will do what you need her to do.  
I love my Nubians, but they can be obnoxious. They do have opinions and they like to talk sometimes. I have found, so far, that the kids I've raised myself are much less flighty and prone to crazy behavior than goats brought in from elsewhere. They can start learning good manners from a young age, and they understand my routine...actually, they probably know the farm better than I do. 
I bought a pregnant Alpine doe this year, and I'm planning to cross her and her kids with my Nubians. I'm hoping to eventually end up with some nice, calm goats with really good production and still a decent amount of butterfat in the milk. 
There are pros and cons to any breed of goat, and obviously, there can be lots of variation within the breed, too, so if you're looking at buying more goats in future, I'd advise trying to spend as much time with a prospective new goat as you can before you purchase. Getting a feel for their individual personality and the management style they're used to will help you determine if they'll be a good fit for you or not.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Caileigh Jane Smith said:


> Getting a feel for their individual personality and the management style they're used to will help you determine if they'll be a good fit for you or not.


This is a really key point. You have some ideas about what you want out of your goats so if you can find people selling goats from a herd with similar goals you are going to be a lot happier with the goats you get.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> This is a really key point. You have some ideas about what you want out of your goats so if you can find people selling goats from a herd with similar goals you are going to be a lot happier with the goats you get.


You have SO hit the nail on the head. It's also the most frustrating aspect of goats to us. We seem to find three main types of goat breeders: The 'show' crowd (usually running a confinement system); the commercial producers (also usually running in confinement, with hot rations to boot) and the non-serious hobbyist (I got a few goats running in the horse pasture!!). I guess I would describe ourselves as serious but not radical homesteaders. We both have enough ag experience in our backgrounds that we want these animals to work (they are not just pets), but we don't need or want to manage animals with basketball-sized udders. There is a thread under 'goat management' started by goathiker titled "inbreeding, culling, and goals" (no clue how to link to it) that seems just SO common-sense to me. 

I suppose our ideal goat would have some decent foraging ability (understand WHY I put her to pasture every day, and they need to be RAISED ON PASTURE in my experience, or they are clueless), calm disposition; quality, well-attached, easy-milking udder; and moderate production. I would love to get to the point of milking in the AM, putting the does out to eat with their kids, running them all into the barn in the evening, and separating the kids for the night. If I could get a solid 1/3 - 1/2 gallon per goat from the AM milking, with good persistence, I would be quite satisfied. This way, the kids get the best possible start, we get enough milk for our family, and evening chores are less, leaving more time for other family activities.

I realize I'm going to need to change some things with the way I feed these goats. But I also want them to utilize at least some of our home-grown feed. Otherwise it feels like, why bother?

I've got the ziplock bags all labeled for stool samples. They just don't seem to 'go' when you want them to. Will update this discussion when I know more about the parasite situation.


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

creeksideflock said:


> You have SO hit the nail on the head. It's also the most frustrating aspect of goats to us. We seem to find three main types of goat breeders: The 'show' crowd (usually running a confinement system); the commercial producers (also usually running in confinement, with hot rations to boot) and the non-serious hobbyist (I got a few goats running in the horse pasture!!). I guess I would describe ourselves as serious but not radical homesteaders. We both have enough ag experience in our backgrounds that we want these animals to work (they are not just pets), but we don't need or want to manage animals with basketball-sized udders. There is a thread under 'goat management' started by goathiker titled "inbreeding, culling, and goals" (no clue how to link to it) that seems just SO common-sense to me.
> 
> I suppose our ideal goat would have some decent foraging ability (understand WHY I put her to pasture every day, and they need to be RAISED ON PASTURE in my experience, or they are clueless), calm disposition; quality, well-attached, easy-milking udder; and moderate production. I would love to get to the point of milking in the AM, putting the does out to eat with their kids, running them all into the barn in the evening, and separating the kids for the night. If I could get a solid 1/3 - 1/2 gallon per goat from the AM milking, with good persistence, I would be quite satisfied. This way, the kids get the best possible start, we get enough milk for our family, and evening chores are less, leaving more time for other family activities.
> 
> ...


You will find some breeders that breed for the milk lines, you'll just have to take time in finding one ... If not wanting a basketball sized udder, try contacting some of these breeders. They may have one their not quite "happy" with their performance but would be "better" for you then someone breeding for conformation.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

creeksideflock said:


> You have SO hit the nail on the head. It's also the most frustrating aspect of goats to us. We seem to find three main types of goat breeders: The 'show' crowd (usually running a confinement system); the commercial producers (also usually running in confinement, with hot rations to boot) and the non-serious hobbyist (I got a few goats running in the horse pasture!!). I guess I would describe ourselves as serious but not radical homesteaders. We both have enough ag experience in our backgrounds that we want these animals to work (they are not just pets), but we don't need or want to manage animals with basketball-sized udders. There is a thread under 'goat management' started by goathiker titled "inbreeding, culling, and goals" (no clue how to link to it) that seems just SO common-sense to me.
> 
> I suppose our ideal goat would have some decent foraging ability (understand WHY I put her to pasture every day, and they need to be RAISED ON PASTURE in my experience, or they are clueless), calm disposition; quality, well-attached, easy-milking udder; and moderate production. I would love to get to the point of milking in the AM, putting the does out to eat with their kids, running them all into the barn in the evening, and separating the kids for the night. If I could get a solid 1/3 - 1/2 gallon per goat from the AM milking, with good persistence, I would be quite satisfied. This way, the kids get the best possible start, we get enough milk for our family, and evening chores are less, leaving more time for other family activities.
> 
> ...


This is essentially the type of goat I'm trying to breed...except I'd like about a gallon of milk a day.  it is frustrating to start out, because I know so few people who have the same goals for their herds. So I understand what you're dealing with!


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

So, what area are you? I will have pasture raised kids next spring. I'm sure that many other people will also. 
My girls average about 3/4 to a gallon a day.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

goathiker said:


> So, what area are you? I will have pasture raised kids next spring. I'm sure that many other people will also.
> My girls average about 3/4 to a gallon a day.


He said he's in Wisconsin.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

I am betting your does have tapes. Sometimes you see segments, other times rice-like pieces. It's one that we deal with a lot here. They absolutely can cause your doe to be skinny and not put on weight despite eating.

If your doe has a meaty udder, she's probably not going to produce much as the tissue capacity isn't there. I'd say it sounds like mastitis scarring. It also sounds like she was most likely trained in her lactation to desire to dry up early hense stopping her grain at the same time every year and dropping production.

I have both Nubians and mini-Nubians. We breed specifically for high production as we have a homestead and use our milk. Our Nubians vary between a gallon to almost 2 gallons a day. Our minis are at about a gallon or just right under, per day. Ours are expected to work and we cull any (to pet homes) that are not up to a production that we require. It's essential to feed properly and milk and expand that udder their first freshening to really get them to be good producers of long lactations.

Like all the suggestions, I'd start with fecals and worming. Then I'd make sure they were copper bolused, give replamin, and the best loose mineral possible. They def could use alfalfa while in milk, but if they don't have the capacity or genetics, nothing will bring them up to be high producers. We are currently getting ours adapted this next year to milking off mostly brush with some added alfalfa. I want to utilize our land more.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Fecal samples went in this AM. I will update when I know more. Internet access is limited on weekends. I definitely want to keep this discussion alive until I am at least making some progress and have a game plan. It is always disappointing to follow a forum thread to a dead end and never find out what happened!

I'm glad to see there are others with similar goals to ours, not that other types of goals are wrong.
Thanks for all the input. Will update next week, if not before.


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

creeksideflock said:


> Fecal samples went in this AM. I will update when I know more. Internet access is limited on weekends. I definitely want to keep this discussion alive until I am at least making some progress and have a game plan. It is always disappointing to follow a forum thread to a dead end and never find out what happened!
> 
> I'm glad to see there are others with similar goals to ours, not that other types of goals are wrong.
> Thanks for all the input. Will update next week, if not before.


Yay that will be a relief to either know they don't have anything worrisome or an answer to what may possibly help your girls! Please do keep us updated!


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Hello again,
Still waiting on fecal results. The Molly's order arrived, gave each doe 3 doses of Formula 1, figured I bought it, what can it hurt, and it may help. I also bought a small bag of BOSS to see if they would eat it. Sugar, yes, Hope, no way. Nothing surprising there! I had to cook oatmeal with molasses and hide the Molly's in that to get Hope to eat it, no surprise there either.

I thought I would attach a few photos, I'm not sure about anyone else, but I always like photos! Feel free to critique. The first two photos of the black goat are Hope prior to milking; the second two are after milking. Same with Sugar (the light brown goat): The first two are before milking, the second two after.

I still want to get the papers we have posted here, but with two toddlers and a large garden, my wife hasn't had time to dig them out yet.

Several here have suggested mineral deficiencies, and I don't doubt it. I wish I knew how to make a real plan, though, instead of just "shotgunning" minerals. How do I know if I got it right? How do I know if I'm giving something that costs, feels good, but isn't needed? Most of us probably know of humans who take a pile of supplement pills every day and are sure their health will collapse if they stop. Is it true? or are they just wasting their money?

They have zero interest in the Purina anymore, even if I bring them a little dry and loose in a feed tub. For good measure, I should try sheep mineral or just plain salt, just to see what happens. Replamin, Sweetlix, kelp, and copper boluses have all been suggested; I'm willing to try any or all, I just hate buying $25.00 bags of this or that (especially when it isn't locally available) and then finding out it wasn't needed or that they refuse to eat it. Thoughts?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Replamin Plus is a gel in a tube. You do a 5 day loader dose then once a week. 5cc is the amount. I didn't have problems with parasites until I got lazy and quit giving it. So is it necessary? At my farm yes.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Wow, to me they don't really look mineral deficient. Their coats look shiny. Do they feel soft? They don't look like they have fishtails. I'm wondering if they aren't eating the minerals because they don't actually need them. Not saying don't put them out, goats should always have access to loose minerals, but maybe put a little less out at a time so you don't waste it. If I were you, I'd get the Replamin, and do the dosage Ksalvagno suggested. If they improve then you know they needed it, if not, then they didn't. 😉 

Their udders are definitely lacking in capacity. Rear udder attachments are very poor too. Overall though, they don't look horrendous. They could definitely use some weight gain, but again they don't look horrible.

We love pictures so thank you for them! 😊


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

No, no fish tails. Sugar's coat has improved tremendously since we got her, she was really thin and rough looking, and shedding her winter coat besides. I think she was the underdog where she was. They are really nice folks, but their hay looks horrendous, so I think their goats live on grain with enough coarse hay to keep them going. We trimmed her feet up (terrible), brushed her out, and wormed her with Cydectin per the vet's recommendation. Hope was in really good condition when she kidded this spring, but it was kind of downhill from there. Pasture wasn't as good this year in spite of my best efforts to manage it (drought). We had about four inches of rain in the last week, so I'm hoping for some good fall pasture and maybe a little more hay besides.

I think I'm going to try the Replamin (the supplier, Vets Plus is based in Menomonie, WI--35 minute drive from us--may or may not be available locally though!) and maybe some kelp too. They ate the Purina really well last winter, then just stopped this spring. I'll keep offering it in very small amounts, and maybe try plain salt and sheep mineral once in a while just to see what happens too. Well, I need to head home now. Hopefully my wife heard from the vet on the fecals today; if not, I need to call him tomorrow and find out what happened.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

So I just called the vet, talked to his wife, and the report is that both fecal samples were moderate - to - high for strongyles. This would be consistent with the worms I saw in Sugar's stool a few weeks ago. Standard recommendation from this vet is Cydectin, don't like having to use it, wife really wants this milk for our children!! But it that's what it takes, then it is what it is. Vet himself may call at some point, have several human doctor visits to attend to in the next few days, so goats need to take second place for now.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

creeksideflock said:


> So I just called the vet, talked to his wife, and the report is that both fecal samples were moderate - to - high for strongyles. This would be consistent with the worms I saw in Sugar's stool a few weeks ago. Standard recommendation from this vet is Cydectin, don't like having to use it, wife really wants this milk for our children!! But it that's what it takes, then it is what it is. Vet himself may call at some point, have several human doctor visits to attend to in the next few days, so goats need to take second place for now.


Good to know what's going on! I'm sure others here will help by giving input on dewormer options. 
Sounds like you will have a busy week with the doctor visits. I hope your family is all ok!


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

Although sad to find something wrong, I'm glad you did! That way you can go ahead with treatment and get your girls better! Hope your ok!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

You can go ahead and do the cydectin, if that's what is recommended by your vet. 8 days is the withdrawal time if you are unaware. You could also try an herbal dewormer which has no milk withdrawal time. Molly's isn't very potent so I would recommend Land of Havilah or Fir Meadows if you wanted to go that route. Herbal dewormers take a lot of commitment to get their numbers down, but it's well worth it for zero milk withdrawal in my opinion.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Tried to update this PM from my phone, threw everything out, don't have time to rewrite it. Terrible reception here. Haven't had time to update with the work computer. Looking for buck, no good ideas anymore. Does on good clean fall pasture and doing better. Looking to improve my goat pens, but not going to repost all of that.

Any way to get rid of these horrid ads dancing across my phone screen and consuming my already very limited internet bandwidth?? I thought a major benefit of registering on most forums was to go ad free. . .


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

You can copper bolus the does and still feed sheep safe mineral if they like that mineral. They may need more copper anyway. .


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

creeksideflock said:


> Tried to update this PM from my phone, threw everything out, don't have time to rewrite it. Terrible reception here. Haven't had time to update with the work computer. Looking for buck, no good ideas anymore. Does on good clean fall pasture and doing better. Looking to improve my goat pens, but not going to repost all of that.
> 
> Any way to get rid of these horrid ads dancing across my phone screen and consuming my already very limited internet bandwidth?? I thought a major benefit of registering on most forums was to go ad free. . .


You might try using a different Web browser. I don't see any ads since I switched over from using Google.


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## Goatastic43 (Jun 11, 2021)

creeksideflock said:


> Tried to update this PM from my phone, threw everything out, don't have time to rewrite it. Terrible reception here. Haven't had time to update with the work computer. Looking for buck, no good ideas anymore. Does on good clean fall pasture and doing better. Looking to improve my goat pens, but not going to repost all of that.
> 
> Any way to get rid of these horrid ads dancing across my phone screen and consuming my already very limited internet bandwidth?? I thought a major benefit of registering on most forums was to go ad free. . .


You could download the app. There’s no ads on that.


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## Boers4ever (Jun 28, 2020)

Yeah I use the app and it’s a lot less trouble and easier to use then the website.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yep, those things will help.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Sorry about the rant, was just really frustrated by spending a lot of time writing an update and then having it totally vanish when I hit "post." And the ads (safari with duck duck go) are unreal. No ads on my business computer, but I run several layers of adblockers there. Will look into the ap, need WiFi to set it up, cellular reception too poor here for that.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

The ads are frustrating! 
I'm glad your does are doing better. If you can't buy the goats you want, you might be able to breed them. It will take you a while.  but just keep the hardiest kids with the traits you value the most, and keep doing that for successive generations. 
This year, as my herd has grown, I'm realizing I have certain goats that take up nearly as much time and resources as the rest of the herd put together. They are good goats, but probably not the best fits for me. I have really started paying attention to where my time and resources are going, and realizing that if one goat consistently needs more input than the others, they will need to go at some point, and any offspring will need to be evaluated very, very carefully before I decide to hang onto them.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Anyway, will keep posts short in case it happens again. Milk goats are on clean fall pasture and doing better. Sugar putting weight on (though not milking worth a hoot), Hope milking better & looking better, but still ridiculously picky about feed. Never did the Cydectin, really wanted to, but wife especially really wanted the milk for our children, so we held off. Doing the Molly's herbals weekly with sugar, too much trouble to get them into Hope. Still intend to get a tube of Replamin, but it feels as if no matter what I'm doing, I ought to be doing something else! I'm sure some of you know the feeling.
I'm looking for some thoughts about breeding and also housing improvements, but will post about that in a day or two when I have a little more time. Also have all those registration papers together now, but sitting at my shop, not going to try to post them via cell phone.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> The ads are frustrating!
> I'm glad your does are doing better. If you can't buy the goats you want, you might be able to breed them. It will take you a while.  but just keep the hardiest kids with the traits you value the most, and keep doing that for successive generations.
> This year, as my herd has grown, I'm realizing I have certain goats that take up nearly as much time and resources as the rest of the herd put together. They are good goats, but probably not the best fits for me. I have really started paying attention to where my time and resources are going, and realizing that if one goat consistently needs more input than the others, they will need to go at some point, and any offspring will need to be evaluated very, very carefully before I decide to hang onto them.


Yes, I do think it's going to take breeding what we want. We are currently clueless on a buck, there just doesn't seem to be much out there in our area. I also think I'm starting to 'get it' as far as critically evaluating offspring. We kept the 'runt' of our 2020 kids because she was 'sweet.' Dumb move. The creature is finally breeding size. I don't have a whole lot of confidence in her.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

If you can find a buck with decent conformation and good udders and milk production behind him, then that would probably be a good place to start. A lot of people around me are selling bucks right now, as they have finished breeding for the year and don't want to feed their buck through the winter. You might be able to pick one up for a reasonable price, then resell him if you don't want to keep him around.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

I'm curious what experience you all have had, if any, selling crossbred kids. Wife is afraid we won't be able to sell kids if we try cross breeding.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Cross bred with what breed of goat?


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Cross bred with what breed of goat?


I think someone suggested Nigerians!

Edit that was another post sorry!


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

I haven't tried to sell cross breed kids yet...I will be next year. I don't anticipate having any trouble.


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## K.B. (Mar 15, 2021)

I have sold a fainter cross! Was fairly easy...


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

NigerianNewbie said:


> Cross bred with what breed of goat?


That is yet to be determined. I've had several suggestions here, and would welcome other suggestions and would like to hear others' experience with cross breeding dairy goats.
My goal is a strong, wide, deep-bodied animal capable of foraging and with the body capacity to utilize forage. Modest milk production is important, let's say 1500 lb. per year. With two goats, that level of production would allow me to run the kids with the mothers on pasture during the day, milk once per day (AM), and still have plenty for us. A wide enough breeding window to let us stagger their breeding and give us milk most of the year would be a plus.
Does that are calmer and more easily managed than our current Nubians would be really nice. Our Nubians are not particularly unfriendly (Sugar seems to prefer human company to goat), but they are loud, very high strung, bullheaded, won't go where you want them, but then drag you there when you grab their collar: (I was going there, Dad, really, I was!) and they seem perennially discontent. Maybe that's just goats . . .
In short, my goals would be some plain, no- nonsense down-to-earth working animals.
Ability to contain with electric fence is essential. Please advise if there are breeds that electric fence doesn't work with. I've read that electric doesn't work with goats, can't understand why not. We have no issues at all. Only way to go, my opinion. They don't destroy it!
Breeding stock availability is important too.
Have thought about an Alpine cross for increased milk.
Have read some good things about LaMancha, including that they may be more cold and wet hardy than our Nubians, but not seeing very good availability. Nigerian crosses and Kinders have been suggested, not sure what the smaller body size does to forage utilization ability and have heard that some of the smaller goats are really high strung. But I don't have any experience with them.


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## NigerianNewbie (Jun 6, 2018)

Each dairy breed of goat has it's own set of distinct traits, purpose, build, butterfat content and udder capacity. Each and every goat has an individualized, personality, conformation, nutritional requirements, immune strength, milk production, breed traits, and attitude. 

Are you familiar with Oberhasli, Saanen or Toggenburg breeds of goat? 

The breed preference depends on who you ask. There are pros and cons for and against every breed of goat. I enjoy the independent, bossy attitude of an Alpine, others find those breed traits difficult. Nigerian Dwarfs can be high strung, or dependent types, or stand-offish and timid. Some of those traits depend on the personality of the sire and dam, and others depend on how they have been raised. 

When you cross breed a goat, you get a combination of the distinct traits from each breed, and which particular traits carries forth the most depends on the genetic background. As an example, the differences are similar to the distinct traits of a pure bred dog versus a mixed breed dog.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Oberhasli, Saanen, Toggenburg-- Have certainly heard of them and have read bits and pieces about them in passing, but have no first- hand experience with anything except Nubian. I get it that there is variation within breeds as well as variation between breeds, same as dairy cattle. A Jersey has one personality, a Holstein another; but individual Holsteins and individual Jerseys vary widely from one another.
I don't know that I have any strong attachment / aversion to any goat breed. But something has to change, probably a combination of genetics and management, or we need to find the goats new homes.
A calmer, quieter personality is a must. Ours are just 'too much goat' for us. I thought if I kept weaned kids together, they would be content. Ten weeks later, they are STILL screaming. Then one of the does starts calling. I tried putting them all together awhile back, no go. Less than two minutes and both are nursing. Plus the kids now associate us with grain, so we can't even walk through their yard without them jumping up on us. Never again! That's the biggest reason I want does that milk enough to leave the kids on the does half time and still get the milk we need.
Have heard some of the Swiss breeds have really strong tasting milk, supposedly, according to some, actually bred that way to impart flavors to cheese. If we can't stand the taste of the milk, the whole venture is kind of pointless. I wish we knew a lot of families milking goats for home use so that we could compare milk, breeds, and notes. We don't. Except for a few commercial herds, we seem to be in a really 'dead' area as far as goats go. Maybe they are out there and we are just blind to them.
I think what I really want is a placid Jersey cow  (and we have seriously considered one), but the come with their own set of challenges, the biggest being that one must have a plan to utilize the volumes of milk in order to justify the volumes of feed. So we always conclude that goats just seem to match our needs better.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

Honestly, I would just try to find a dairy buck with the qualities you're looking for, and not worry too much about the breed right now. Try making a list of the most important qualities to you, and shop for those.
For me, the most important things are
Healthy, well-attached udder
Good milk production for 10 months of the year
Good mothering instinct
Good forager
Hardy
Good tempered and calm

Some of my Nubians do holler at me, and when they do, I just holler back. Everyone is going crazy here right now, because I brought one of my bucks up close to the girls so I can tell when my Alpine is coming into heat, so all of the goats start yelling at me to DO SOMETHING as soon as I step outside. But the Nubians I have right now are not all that noisy under ordinary circumstances. My Alpines are every bit as talkative as the Nubians, but their voices are just quieter.

Any change in routine can throw all the goats for a loop, but persistence does pay off, in my experience. If the kids can see their moms, they will yell for each other. I have found it was easiest to put moms in a pasture out of sight of the kids at weaning time. There was far less hollering and chaos that way. 

I was starting to have issues with my three retained doelings mobbing me at feeding time, so now they get tied up and the grain is brought in afterward. I think we're all happier with that arrangement, now that they've gotten used to it.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Cedarwinds Farm said:


> Honestly, I would just try to find a dairy buck with the qualities you're looking for, and not worry too much about the breed right now. Try making a list of the most important qualities to you, and shop for those.
> For me, the most important things are
> Healthy, well-attached udder
> Good milk production for 10 months of the year
> ...


Wow. I could easily live with your set of goals. We have great mothering instinct. I can live with Hopes' udder. Hope is a tolerable forager; Gazelle (yearling doeling) was raised entirely on pasture and seems to be a great forager. As far as the rest of those goals . . . 

I told my wife I would be happy milking ugly purple goats if such goats existed and would meet our goals. Breed doesn't matter to me really; the main reason I was considering crossbreeding at all is because it seems as if it may help us reach our goals faster. Some hybrid vigor thrown in there wouldn't hurt either. Care to ship some goats to Wisconsin?? (Just kidding!)

Somehow we need to network better locally with goat people. Craigslist has been our primary source for both sales and purchases, and it just isn't working out well. Most of the goats on there are either junk (horns, no records, poor health practices, pets that no one cares about production, etc or else totally not what we are looking for (Boers, for example). Going to see a commercial Alpine guy today (his tractor needs repairs and this is my business), might chat with him a bit.


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

OK, finally some more photos and some papers. First photo is our beautiful fall pasture. Could use some more legume content; otherwise, very pleased with it! Second photo is Gazelle, unbred yearling doe. Gazelle is Hope's daughter (Hope on left). Buck was a supposedly purebred grade Nubian that came to us as wild as a deer, literally. Third photo is our shade wagon, 10 x 16 foot moveable shade cloth support that follows the animals around all summer providing the benefits of shade without the downsides. Fourth photo is Spice, April daughter of Sugar. Fifth photo is Holly, May daughter of Hope. Sixth & seventh photos are Frosty's pedigree. We don't own Frosty, never did. We were able to borrow him to breed Hope last fall. Frosty is the sire of Sugar and Holly. Seventh photo is Hope's pedigree. Hope is older than I thought at first. I don't seem to have Sugar's pedigree here, must have left it at home. I don't think it's anything special. All the goats are registered or can be registered except Gazelle. Of the three virgin does, I have the most hope for Holly, as I think Frosty was supposedly a pretty decent buck.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

creeksideflock said:


> Wow. I could easily live with your set of goals. We have great mothering instinct. I can live with Hopes' udder. Hope is a tolerable forager; Gazelle (yearling doeling) was raised entirely on pasture and seems to be a great forager. As far as the rest of those goals . . .
> 
> I told my wife I would be happy milking ugly purple goats if such goats existed and would meet our goals. Breed doesn't matter to me really; the main reason I was considering crossbreeding at all is because it seems as if it may help us reach our goals faster. Some hybrid vigor thrown in there wouldn't hurt either. Care to ship some goats to Wisconsin?? (Just kidding!)
> 
> Somehow we need to network better locally with goat people. Craigslist has been our primary source for both sales and purchases, and it just isn't working out well. Most of the goats on there are either junk (horns, no records, poor health practices, pets that no one cares about production, etc or else totally not what we are looking for (Boers, for example). Going to see a commercial Alpine guy today (his tractor needs repairs and this is my business), might chat with him a bit.


Well, those are my goals. I haven't arrived yet. 
Networking locally is a great idea! I hope you can get some leads on a buck that will really help improve your herd.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

creeksideflock said:


> View attachment 213460
> View attachment 213461
> View attachment 213462
> View attachment 213463
> ...


Glancing through the pedigrees, I see that Frosty's dam has a milk star. That's encouraging! I don't pretend to understand all the LA scoring stuff. I'm sure it's interesting, but those are uncharted waters for me. Someone else may chime in who has a better grasp. 
Your fall pasture is gorgeous, and I like your shade wagon idea! I think your goats look healthy and happy (I can't hear them screaming).
When your current doelings freshen for the first time, make sure you do what you can to build udder capacity. You can't fix bad attachments, or make a doe produce more milk than she's capable of, but you can help her perform to the best of her ability. I stumbled across this blog post before my first kidding season, and it was very helpful. Glimmercroft - Udder Development and Dam-Raising Kids


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## creeksideflock (Aug 24, 2021)

Great article that also answers some of my other questions! As I mentioned a few posts back, "never again" as far as raising kids the way we did this summer-- even though we appear to have a nice healthy pair of kids. (1) Even though they have access to pasture, they don't view it as their primary food source. They need to be out with the main group and learn from their grazing behavior. (2) The continuous, non-rotated goat kid yard is susceptible to parasite buildup. (3) I would prefer the goat kids not associate me with grain except on the milk stand. I'm willing to feed them grain, but I want it to be something they find in the barn when I let them in, not a treat that comes from me. 
So I've been thinking of building a setup similar to what is described in that article, basically a creep pen attached to the doe's pen. The kids would have hay, water, and grain on their side, and they could see the does. But they would be separated all night. 
Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?

The shade wagon is an adaptation of a Joel Salatin creation. It gives all the benefits of shade on pasture (animal health & comfort) without the many negatives (primarily nutrient transfer and heavy parasite buildup). Someone gave me the old hay wagon, and it was in such poor condition and the running gear was so light that I just stripped it down to the running gear and built a light frame on it to support the shade cloth. I might have $400 in it including all new wheel bearings. It's light enough that I can push it by hand for short moves and pull it with a garden tractor for longer moves.


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## Cedarwinds Farm (Dec 2, 2019)

creeksideflock said:


> (1) Even though they have access to pasture, they don't view it as their primary food source. They need to be out with the main group and learn from their grazing behavior. (2) The continuous, non-rotated goat kid yard is susceptible to parasite buildup. (3) I would prefer the goat kids not associate me with grain except on the milk stand. I'm willing to feed them grain, but I want it to be something they find in the barn when I let them in, not a treat that comes from me.
> So I've been thinking of building a setup similar to what is described in that article, basically a creep pen attached to the doe's pen. The kids would have hay, water, and grain on their side, and they could see the does. But they would be separated all night.
> Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?


I think that will work pretty well! That's essentially the set up I have used the past 2 years. Getting the kids wrangled away from their moms the first few times can be tricky, but after that, they seem to kind of enjoy having their own little spot at night. I put some little doghouses and their own mineral feeder in there, in addition to what you mentioned. If you can do a separate entrance to the outside, then you can have the option of taking kids in and out without taking them through the doe pen, which is easier. 
The kids really do forage so much better when they're with the older goats. Even my bottle kids I integrated with the larger herd when they were a couple weeks old. That might be risky for some, but my older goats did not seem to mind as long as the kids weren't actively pestering them. They learned how to be a herd, and have not been quite as clingy and emotionally dependent on me


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## Rockland Ridge Ranch (Aug 6, 2020)

I am also in west central Wisconsin, between La Crosse and Sparta. I have Nigerian Dwarf goats. If you are at all interested in meeting them you are welcome to come by sometime. I am new to raising goats as well but have some ag background. What started as pets and brush eaters in 2020 turned into me jumping in to ADGA registered stock, pursuing good milking lines, looking into milk test, and possibly showing next year. But I am mostly into milk production on a homestead scale, which it sounds like that is also one of your goals. I know how you feel with some goats being "too much". I feel that way about our Boers. And I come from a horse background so I am no stranger to large livestock! Feel free to look up my farm page on Facebook or Instagram: Rockland Ridge Ranch


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