# Cold kid



## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

I had a boer doe give birth today to two tiny doelings. Yesterday was her due date, she is 2 years old FF. The first one presented one foot and forehead with chin tucked back. It took a while for me to sort her out and the second kid didn’t make it. It is freezing outside, 20 degrees or something. I brought the kid in to get her warm and dry. What is the best way to warm her and should I try to bottle feed colostrum from mom or take her back out when she is dry? I know I’ve read this stuff but can’t find it.


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

To warm her quickly you can use a blow dryer on low, a heating pad and blankets or put her in a garbage bag with her head out so she doesn't get wet and put her in a really warm tub or sink of water . DO NOT feed her if her temperature is lower than 100 degrees as she can not digest it. You can give her 0.5cc vitamin b complex orally though.
Good luck


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree, make sure that temp is 100 degree's minimum before feeding colostrum.

Do you have a heat lamp? If so, I would put one up for the baby, so the mama won't disown.
I would feed some colostrum from a syringe slowly, no needle, then try the kid on mom.

If the kid is week, give a small Bo-se shot as well.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, she MUST be at least 100 Fahrenheit before being fed. Since I don' really want bottle babies, I'd try to support her going back to mom. If you have to bottle feed, try to only give her mother's milk so she keeps smelling "right". Chances of the mother keeping her increase immeasurably when she smells "right".
I'm very sorry you lost her sister. Sometimes bad timing happens.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Very good job you got her out! Sometimes it is easier to warm a kid inside the clothes. You get muddy from the birth water, but if you are like me that does not matter.

And welcome!


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

Thanks everyone. I finally got her warm with heating pad and blow dryer. She then was trying to stand and rooting around. I gave her about 3 oz colostrum from mom via bottle and also some Selenium/Vit E gel. I put a sweater on her and set up a heat lamp in the stall and took her back out to mom because I don’t want a bottle baby so I didn’t want to keep her away too long. Mom is very into her but she isn’t able to stand yet. She’s tiny, 4.5 pounds. Also, they delivered at 10 and it is now 12:45 and Mom still hasn’t passed the afterbirth.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Such a tough delivery often results in mom not "understanding" she has an offspring to take care of. To stimulate the uterus to contract, which will make it easier for the afterbirth to let go in there, you may stimulate the udder by massageing it, in case the kid does not dock properly to the teat.


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

Right after I posted she passed the afterbirth. I felt like it helped her to have her kid to lick on some more. I took the baby back inside because she was getting tired and cold, but I’m hoping if I keep bringing her back out every few hours Mom will continue to know she is her’s. Any tips for milking mom with no milk stand or assistance?


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Critter015 said:


> Right after I posted she passed the afterbirth. I felt like it helped her to have her kid to lick on some more. I took the baby back inside because she was getting tired and cold, but I'm hoping if I keep bringing her back out every few hours Mom will continue to know she is her's. Any tips for milking mom with no milk stand or assistance?


You can halter mom and tie her to something with a bucket of feed something to keep her occupied while you milk her. Make sure you strip out the first squirt or two into a different container other than your milking pan. Wash her before and use dip or fight-bac after.
Beyond that I don't know much about milking. I'm learning too. Good luck.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Tie her head as best you can to a post by the wall. Not so that it will choke her or pull tighter as she fights. So she either comes toward you or hits the wall. If she is still fightin you tie up one back leg. Put it back out from her body some so that she cannot hit the ground or wall with it but not so tight back it Will hurt. She may let you milk her if you put grain in front of her after you tie her head. All you can do is try. Since she hasnt been milked keep one hand on the udder and one on the bucket as much as you can so you can snatch it away when she starts tryin fight. If she is attentive to the kid it may help to have the kid where mom can see and smell her. Heck if the kid wants to try nurse let it. Goofygoat has the rest of it good too! If you dont have fight bac you can ise diluted iodine or hibaclense or diluted chlorhexadine. Also... some kind of udder cream or balm will help while milkin and to put on her after you are done. It just lubes up while milkin makin it easier and keeps the udder from chaffing after. The kids saliva does all that naturally.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Or "tie" her by placing the kid, plus a bucket with treats, where you want her head to be. Kneel down at her side and make sure your touch of her udder is tolerated. The less you force her, the bigger the chance that you will be able to milk her like I did - making friends!

After all, you were allowed to help her deliver!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

All good advice.

Glad things are going OK.


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

Baby started to stand at around 12 hours old. She is now able to walk and doesn’t seem to want to lay down if she can help it. 

It is around 40 degrees today and the sun is shining so I’ve finally been able to put her in the stall with Mom. She has a sweater on and a heat lamp over one end of the stall and doesn’t seem too cold. Mom likes her and talks to her and licks around her face, but doesn’t really seem to know what to do with her. 

I have not tried to get baby to nurse because while the first few times I offered the bottle she rooted around a lot, latched right on, and guzzled everything down looking for more, she hasn’t been as interested the last few feedings. It takes a few tries of putting the nipple in her mouth and tickling her bottom for her to start sucking and then it takes a few tries for her to drink an ounce. I think I may have given her too much at first, so I’m backing off and only offering an ounce or two every 2-3 hours (4 overnight). She’s only about 4.5 pounds. She’s pooping and peeing a ton, poop is now yellow and mustard like consistency. 

Mom was my most timid goat before kidding and was very difficult to catch/get near, so I think milking her was probably really scary for her at first after everything else. She was not thrilled with my delivery help, but I did let her clean me some while we were trying to get the baby warm and dry so maybe that helped her bond better with me. While trying to milk she would stand somewhat still while she had grain, but it was taking me forever to get much out because her teats are so small, and once the grain was gone she’d start trying to jump all around. I had some colostrum in my freezer from another goat and gave baby some of that overnight to give mom a break, and this morning she was much easier to milk as she is switching over to actual milk rather than colostrum and it is
much easier to get out of those tiny teats. When I’ve tried to put baby near her udder she tries to get away. I’m thinking I need to wait until baby is more interested in eating before I get more aggressive about getting her to nurse.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Hm, the Thumb-And-Forefinger-Tips kind of teats, really hard on the hands! Good job you get some milk out! Most does get so full with Taking-Care-Hormones around delivery, that it usually spills over to us as well. A pity she does not yet understand what to do with her little one. Usually, it takes more to get them to learn this the longer time has passed after delivery. I wish I could see her with the sweater on, must be cute!

I think I missed to ask if the afterbirth has come?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Are you putting a pinch of baking soda in the first bottle of the day?


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

Trollmor said:


> Hm, the Thumb-And-Forefinger-Tips kind of teats, really hard on the hands! Good job you get some milk out! Most does get so full with Taking-Care-Hormones around delivery, that it usually spills over to us as well. A pity she does not yet understand what to do with her little one. Usually, it takes more to get them to learn this the longer time has passed after delivery. I wish I could see her with the sweater on, must be cute!
> 
> I think I missed to ask if the afterbirth has come?


 Yes! These teats are miserable to milk. The first year we had goats, this doe's aunt lost her kid and I tried milking her but quickly decided it wasn't worth the cramped hands.

She did pass the afterbirth about 3 hours after delivery. I really hate that we had to take her baby away for so long but it was just too cold out there for such a tiny and weak kid. Thankfully we are supposed to get warmer each day this week so she should be able to stay out there from here on out.


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

ksalvagno said:


> Are you putting a pinch of baking soda in the first bottle of the day?


I have not heard of doing this, but this is the first time I have bottle fed. What does the baking soda do?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Helps prevent rumen problems.


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

I have wet newborn doelings wrapped up in a heating blanket on my bed right now. Mom is outside.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Critter015 said:


> Baby started to stand at around 12 hours old. She is now able to walk and doesn't seem to want to lay down if she can help it.
> 
> It is around 40 degrees today and the sun is shining so I've finally been able to put her in the stall with Mom. She has a sweater on and a heat lamp over one end of the stall and doesn't seem too cold. Mom likes her and talks to her and licks around her face, but doesn't really seem to know what to do with her.
> 
> ...


Let little miss get hangry then take her to the teat.


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

Success! Baby Lila has been out with her Momma since this morning. She took 2 oz at noon and then at 4 I tried to latch her on Momma a few times without success so I offered the bottle and she only took about 20 mls. 

We got in a bit late from dinner and it was around 8:30 when I got to them. Gave Momma her grain and Lila was rooting around, obviously hungry, so I pointed her in the right direction and she latched right on! Momma still doesn’t seem to be trying to guide her in the right direction much, but she was trying to position her leg out of the way at least. Momma was a bit anxious because my dog was outside her stall so she was moving around a lot and Lila seemed to be doing a good job of going to the right place to look for the teat after she moved. I will check on them again later tonight but I’m feeling optimistic that maybe we are done with bottles!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

None of my dams "guide" kids to the udder. Is that a thing?


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Yes, really cute! :inlove: The mom looks at least interested, and the kid looks strong and healthy! In my experience, a mom and newborn kid easier keep their contact if allowed to meet often during their time of separation, not so much the amount of hours they spend together. (Although maybe I was crazy enough to bring in the mother as well if the kid needed a long period of warming up. :hide: )

The wall looks uninsulated but well protecting against draft.

@ksalvagno Please, how can something added to the milk for a newborn have any effect whatsoever on the rumen?


Sfgwife said:


> Let little miss get hungry then take her to the teat.


Sorry, bad advice. This kid had a very hard entrance into this world, and eventually stood on her legs after 12 hours! She needs the energy from the milk to be able to struggle for more.


Critter015 said:


> Success! Baby Lila was rooting around, obviously hungry, so I pointed her in the right direction and she latched right on!


 It is the kid's job to find the teat and suckle. The mother's job is to lick, sniff, stand still, and keep her legs out of the way. And protect against predators! Congrats to happy reunion! You really made my morning!


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

Trollmor said:


> Yes, really cute! :inlove: The mom looks at least interested, and the kid looks strong and healthy! In my experience, a mom and newborn kid easier keep their contact if allowed to meet often during their time of separation, not so much the amount of hours they spend together. (Although maybe I was crazy enough to bring in the mother as well if the kid needed a long period of warming up. :hide: )
> 
> The wall looks uninsulated but well protecting against draft.
> 
> @ksalvagno Please, how can something added to the milk for a newborn have any effect whatsoever on the rumen?Sorry, bad advice. This kid had a very hard entrance into this world, and eventually stood on her legs after 12 hours! She needs the energy from the milk to be able to struggle for more. It is the kid's job to find the teat and suckle. The mother's job is to lick, sniff, stand still, and keep her legs out of the way. And protect against predators! Congrats to happy reunion! You really made my morning!


Not super hungry but needin to be fed hungry. If she was full she jad no reason to try for the teat.


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

mariarose said:


> None of my dams "guide" kids to the udder. Is that a thing?


Really? Most of my mommas kind of nudge them with their noses toward the udder, make encouraging noises, and lick their bottoms while they are trying to find the teat at first.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Critter015 said:


> Really? Most of my mommas kind of *nudge them with their noses toward the udder*, make encouraging noises, and lick their bottoms while they are trying to find the teat at first.


Nice! You have seen something I have not!  I have only seen them pull the kid closer with the chin, in order to be able to lick.

The sniffing of bottom is an important stimulation to suck, like the touch of forehead against the mother's belly for searching upwards. The latter reaction usually disappears when the kid grows up, but the sniffing of back and butt I have used many times when I needed to comfort a sick goat, for example to enable the vet to do some work.

I understand that you probably do not have a film of this nudging, but that would be a film even I would watch!!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Sfgwife said:


> If she was full she had no reason to try for the teat.


Correct. Once she is full the problem is solved!


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## mariarose (Oct 23, 2014)

Licking the butt is not guiding, because they will lick no matter what direction the kid is facing. The dams do stand and do move the legs away, but I've never seen guiding. That's been up to the kid. When I try to help guide, I get resistance. The kid tries to move away from where I want. Guiding doesn't help.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

(Are we getting OT now?)


mariarose said:


> Licking the butt is not guiding, because they will lick no matter what direction the kid is facing. The dams do stand and do move the legs away, but I've never seen guiding. That's been up to the kid. When I try to help guide, I get resistance. The kid tries to move away from where I want. Guiding doesn't help.


Lick or sniff? I never had resistance, maybe it makes a difference if I lift the kid close to the mother, fold its front legs in, and then make sure it feels a contact on the forehead, that makes it search upwards - if it is healthy. Or may it be a difference between breeds??


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

Whatever it is the mom normally does, this one doesn’t seem to want to lick the kid’s butt. I’m having to clean the poop off of her, and I think I probably did give the kid a bit too much to eat at first because it is pretty runny and she’s a mess! I’ve been going out periodically to help make sure she is latching and have been milking a bit out of the teat she doesn’t latch onto to help keep mom comfortable. 

Since she is a FF it was a big priority for me to let Mom clean baby for as long as we could manage despite the cold. I think those extra few visits during the first day were also really important and I’m glad I thought to do it. If my husband hadn’t been home I probably would have had her delivering in my laundry room, but even with the tiny baby, he wasn’t too keen on a goat in the house.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

If the poop sticks on the butt, something is wrong. Usually, the mother licks it off with a face like "HOW awful!!"  Very good you let them build up their relation, that will probably pay later, when the mom actually takes care of the daughter.

How is Lila doing now? By now she should be acting like a pop corn, at least parts of the day.

I really feel sorry for your poor husband, so obviously not understanding the true joys of life!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Some aren't as good at cleaning the rear end. I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

But the kids should not need any cleaning of the anus! The poop shall just fall out! If it is so loose that it sticks to the skin, something is wrong.


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

It was super runny for a bit and had run all down her legs, but it has firmed up a lot since she’s been out with Mom. Mom sniffs it and makes a face but doesn’t lick it. I’ve been cleaning anything stuck there when I go out. She is being a very good Mama.

Lila was making me laugh yesterday. It seemed like almost every time I went out she was laying down and when she saw me she would start yelling and flopping herself back and forth trying to get up, but she was in such a hurry she forgot that she needed to gather those long legs underneath her first. After a minute she’d stop, gather herself, and then get up. I’m glad she seems to have a special bond with me, maybe that will help her be more tame than her Mama is. I sold Mama’s dam and her dam’s half sister because neither were tame at all and they were impossible to catch or do anything with.

She’s getting more active each day but I’ve haven’t seen her jumping around or anything yet. I’m a little sad for her that she has nobody to play with. We only have 4 breeding does and the next one isn’t due for 6 more weeks. When I move them out of the stall they will be in with two other doelings that are 8 and 9 months so maybe the bigger girls will play with her some. 

One thing that I find kind of funny and wondered about, is that her hair is kind of curly. Her mama’s twin brother had the exact same hair at birth. I’m not sure if that is some sort of deficiency or just genetic.


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

Yeah, I suppose everyone in here has seen that! Way too many legs, and all of them very much too far away from the Brain Office! Thanks for the description! 

Good that she both wants to go to you, and is able to move by herself. If having the Running, of course she is a bit tired, and I trust you keep your eyes open to changes in her behaviour.

Check that the older ones are kind to the small one!


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

I am almost certain that the runny poop is because I fed her too much at first. The initial information I found said to give 4 oz at a time the first day and that they need 20 oz of colostrum in the first 24 hours but then I found more detailed information that said to base the amount on their weight and that a kid her size really should have half that amount and feeding too much would give them diarrhea. Each kidding seems to teach me something new, that’s for sure!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

If it only heals, I am not concerned.


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## Critter015 (Feb 19, 2017)

I still haven’t seen her up and about much at all. She gets up, eats and then lays back down shortly after. When I go get her up her tummy always feels nice and full and she runs over to Mom for more. She seems to be peeing and pooping fine. She kind of had me worrying this morning so I took her temp and it was 102.3. I weighed her and she’s up a pound since birth. I gave her Selenium/E gel and Vit B complex gel the first day. Are either of those something I should repeat? Anything else I should be giving? 

They have been in the stall up until today (it is 8’x11’, so they weren’t cramped) but this afternoon they spent a few hours in a fenced run that has a small shelter and she did spend a while exploring and even did a little sashay and run when she came across a couple of hens, but then every other time I went to check her she was napping in the shelter. I can imagine life is exhausting for such a tiny thing so I guess maybe I shouldn’t blame her for napping so much.

One thing is that Mom didn’t get her CDT booster prior to delivery. She’s so skittish I can’t catch/hold her well enough to give it myself like I can my other goats and my husband couldn’t fit it in to help me. She was last vaccinated last April. I read somewhere that kids with unvaccinated moms should get an initial shot at 1 week old, is that right? I usually give it at 3 weeks. This is my 3rd year kidding and somehow I feel like I’m more unprepared than ever!


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## Trollmor (Aug 19, 2011)

You seem to be a good observer. Try to note if she is more or less active as time is going.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

If the kid is doing OK now, nothing more needs to be done, but watch.


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