# Made my choice .... a Karakachan!



## motdaugrnds

I drove over today and picked up a brindle-colored puppy with perfect pedigrees...shown below.

On the way home she was calm (about a 90 min drive) whle stretching out on my old housecoat in my lap.

When we got home Cujo (our lab) showed her how to drink water, though that was the only nice thing he had to do as he took an immediate dislike to her getting HIS attention! Cujo is very obedient so this did not turn into anything I could not deal with.

She started exploring about 1,000 square feet of the territory...not much but quite a bit for an 8 week old. She was quite brave even to the extent of "jumping" off a 2 ft retainer wall..not once (when she landed on her head) but twice (when she landed on her chest). The third time she walked around it (about 6 ft.)

She started to "puppy play" with a rooster when David clapped his hands together to distract her. She looked at David, looked back at the rooster and then left the rooster to continue her exploration.

We took her into the little pen I had created just for her...also seen below...and shut the door. She did not like it and let us know she didn't. After about 3 minutes we opened the door and showed her how to come out. She came out, turned around and went right back in. Laid down and went to sleep. I left the door open.

Later (about an hour) I went to check on her and she was missing. I stepped into the barn and called her. The sound of my voice brought her to me with tail wagging. She followed me out of the barn and started looking for ways to play. She looked at the guineas (about 3 ft from her making a lot of noise). She looked at that rooster that had initially caught her eye. She looked at Cujo. Then she decided to lay down on the grass and play with that. I flipped her onto her back and started rolling her from side to side. She was playful. I stopped. She laid down on her side and rolled by herself over and over. ROFL

Now it is getting dark. She has not been with the goats as they have been keeping their distance from this new comer, being intimidated (not by her behavior) by her very presence. So I put her back into the little pen and closed the door. She started pulling a temper tantrum I've not seen for years, howling L O N G howls and getting angry that could not get out. She found a corner where a hole was and got her nose in it. I put a large rock there. She found the rock and started growling ferociously (as much as a puppy can) at that rock because it would not move. I began to wonder oh dear, maybe I've made a mistake putting a Karakachan in a little pen! I watched this fiasco for over half an hour knowing I could NOT let her win and thinking I've really blown it now! Then I decided she needed company; so I locked the goats up in that barn so they all had to cope together! This pup continued to howl and get angry! I went in and got that old housecoat she had slept on during transport & put it into her little pen. She made a few turns, then laid down and went to sleep. That was over an hour ago and all is still calm in the barn!

This is my first experience with an LGD and so far; so good!


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## ksalvagno

Very cute! Congrats!


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## motdaugrnds

She's already gotten out of that little wire house half a dozen times during the nights. We take her out once in the middle of the night so she can poop and pee; but she does not want to stay in that wire house any length of time. (She will go in there for her food and water, even will sleep for awhile in there; but that's about it!) When she gets out during the night, she comes up to the house wagging her tail at her accomplishments. All day she is free to roam around the place and is eating good. David has taken to walking her around the parameters twice a day (actually 4 times a day since he walks the boundary twice each time). She has shown no signs of aggressiveness toward any of the animals. We never let her in the house and only give her attention for short periods of time 2-3 times a day as we are wanting her to bond more with the goats. (I am finding that it would have been wiser to select a pup at 12 weeks of age instead of 8 weeks due to the pups need for continued bonding.)


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## SCRMG

Congrats on your new pup! At eight weeks old, these little independent minds are hard to cage. It sounds like you're doing a good job with her though.


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## motdaugrnds

Thank you SCRMG, coming from you that's a compliment as I admire your posts in here about LGDs. Here is a better image of her...caught her sitting on my back deck and, by the cock of her head, I could just hear her little mind working, i.e. "Now, just what are you doing?" ROFL


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## sweetgoats

Oh my gosh, what a adorable sweet face she has.

I could never be a good LGD owner. I am always playing with my dogs and giving them all the attenetion I can. Not to say that LGD don't really get any but I could not help but love all over her.

And sucker, yep that is me, in the house they would be. I am so bad.


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## motdaugrnds

Strange occurrences today.

1) I went to town yesterday and when I started up the van to go, Valentina came around the corner, did a little bark/growl, turned to head back around the corner and stopped, looked back and gave another bark/growl. (David was outside watching this as he was about to leash her for another trip around the parameters.)

2) I decided, due to her age, not to pin her in for the night. Instead, I left the goats out of the barn with door open so all could enter at will. During the night, I stepped outside to see where she was and heard a little bark/growl, then saw her at my feet with tail wagging. She had apparentl been curled up on Cujo's bed & I had startled her. Off and on during the night I checked on her and, most of the time, I found her asleep on Cujo's bed with him sleeping just below her. (My back deck is tiered) This morning when I went out early to tend the goats, she followed me and, to my surprise, not one goat acted frightened of her but actually let her walk around among them. (I believe now the goats had been more frightened of the noises she made letting all know she had disliked being locked up in a pen at night than of her.)

I'm now thinking, though this Karakachan is an LGD, our 6-acre homestead is about the right size for ONE of these dogs to bond with (and eventually guard) everything on it. Time will tell! However, my leaving her out last night has created a freedom apparently she (and the goats) needed to get better acquainted. (It was a rather light night and one of the times I had checked on her, I discovered her sitting at the top of the steps watching the 5 kids run/jump/play at the bottom of the steps. Not once did she attempt to join them...just sat there watching.) I know I will be learning a lot about this breed; however, I'm now starting to believe, each dog within each litter of this breed is going to "choose" its own way of interacting with its new world; and so far, I'm liking the choices this pup is making. (Still David and I are limiting our interactions with her.)

Oh, another thing I've noticed occurrs when I'm walking. I walk slowly because our ground is not as level as I'ld like it and my balance is not as it use to be due to joint pain. Initially Valentina would get around my feet and I would gently kick her out of the way. Now, in such a short time, I've noticed her walking at my side instead of crisscrossing in front of me....smart puppy! (I'm hoping to teach this pup not to pounce around me so when it gets large, she won't be accidentally knocking me down.)


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## SCRMG

How's your puppy doing? I've been reading up on the breed, and they sound like great dogs.


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## motdaugrnds

SCRMG, I'm finding this puppy to be exceptionally smart, brave and alert. I'm pretty much keeping the progression of this pup updated on this thread.



Valentina is walking amongst the goats and fowl without problems. Occasionally she will start to play with one of the kids; but will stop at the sound of my voice. A cute incident occurred last night, i.e. Cujo had a left-over bone he had found and Valentina apparently wanted it. She got on her tummy and, with her tail over her back, skooted up to Cujo's front paws where he was holding the bone. Cujo watched her as though he was going to nip at her; and she slowly laid her mouth on that bone. At that time, she had one end of the bone and Cujo had the other. I just stood there watching thinking I was going to have to intervene any moment. Then Cujo let go and Valentina trotted away with her prize. ROFL


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## serenityfarmnm

I'm so very very happy that you ended up with what you were looking for! The Kara is such a great breed. They just need the right start.....


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## KW Farms

She is very cute! Congrats! :leap:

I removed the link to the other forum since it is against forum rules, but please feel free to post updates on this thread here on TGS! We'd all love to stay posted on her! :thumb:


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## motdaugrnds

Ok that is all well KW Farms. I should have known better than to put a link to another forum anyway.

Update.........
Took Valentina to the vet this week. It was a terribly long trip for a pup this age (11am - 8pm) and she was on a leash the entire time. (If David had not already taught her a leash will not harm will and will eventually come off and if we had not already taught her what "uh uh" means, I doubt the trip would have been so smooth.) David and I alternated between staying with her as the other did what was needed to be done. Valentina was frequently walked and peed twice during the trip (once out on grass; other inside Tractor Supply just after she had looked up and barked). She was glad to return home and she and Cujo greeted each other.

The vet did a full physical, complete blood workup & fecal exam. The physical showed a very healthy pup without dewclaws, saying they may have been taken off by breeder when she was 2 days old. The blood work showed she was a "...tiny..." bit anemic. The fecal exam showed no worms at all. (About a week ago David had found a 5" round worm and I had wormed her with some Strongid that was over 4 yrs old.) The vet gave her the 5-way baby shot (another due in a few weeks), a general vitamin tab (suggesting we get her some "Pet Tabs" as a daily supplement) and a "general" worm tablet. No one there had ever seen this breed before, so Valentina got a lot of ooos and aahs; and the vet wrote down the name of her breed, where she came from and a brief history of the breed. He told me a pup that looked as well as this one and a breed with these characteristics was a great find; so he took time to talk with me at length as to taking care of her. (I had already done my homework yet felt real good he valued my pup as much as I did.)

I'm giving her "raw" meat/bones (only once a week) as I have come to believe that would benefit her yet I don't want her "thinking" she can wait for it to eat. (I would not put that past the smarts of this pup.) I use this opportunity to teach her to let me take whatever she has from her without problems; and this has proven to be quite a challenge. (She can be a ferocious pup!) I've done this twice already with the first time taking about 4-5 times to get her to where I could take it without having to take hold of the back of her neck. This 2nd time was a bit different because I noticed my even moving to take hold of the back of her neck was something she was prepared to stop. So I used a treat I know she likes, holding it in one hand near her nose while my other hand moves to take her bone. This does seems to work best; and though I've managed to take the bone each time and it gets easier each time, still she lets me know she does not like it. (One time she ferociously challenged me. That time I acted more on instinct...and don't ask me where that came from as I have no idea. I grabbed her little head with both my hands and held it as I looked directly in her eyes and growled. She let me know this frightened her; so I'm thinking this might not have been very wise. However, it did hasten the process of her learning to let me take that bone.) [Cujo still will NOT eat raw meat. He lets Valentina have the raw meat off his bone and then enjoys what she had left of her bone, which confuses me a little. However, Cujo had NEVER been given raw meat/bone before.] Also, I purchased small bags of 3 different types of dry dog chow, one being strickly for puppies...and all grain-free. I'm mixing these to see which is getting eat the most and giving this mix to both dogs (except for the puppy chow part). Did this because Valentina is eating Cujo's food too anyway. (This mix...in small percentage...being added to what she was accustomed to eating should not upset her system; and should teach me something about her preferences.)

Another little episode I believe you all might enjoy occurred a couple of days ago. I was sitting on the front deck when I caught this pup running quickly around one of the grown does. She would complete her circle then drop to the ground and roll over only to get up and circle/roll again. All this time the doe would occasionally look at her but would continue grazing. (I believe this pup has found one way of playing without getting herself into trouble.)


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## KW Farms

No problem.  :thumb:


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## motdaugrnds

Thought some of you may enjoy an update on my little Karakachan puppy....

Here are a few pictures showing how well she is adapting to the goats (and they to her).

Also, took her for 2nd time to vet for last set of shots (including rabies) and started her on heart worm meds. Also bought her a couple of Adam's Flea Collars. She (and Cujo) are both eating non-grain dry foods with one "raw" meal per week. 

Valentina has learned to "sit", "lay down", "roll over" & "stay" on command....as much as her baby attention span allows her to. And I can now take away any type of food she is chewing on (even though she lets me know she really doesn't like it). 

This little Karakachan has gained about 10 pounds in the last month, rarely barks & is getting bossy with Cujo, who has always been rather submissive. I've seen her copy Cujo's behavior (coming when called and sitting on command...getting treats of course) as well as some behaviors of the goats (jumping up to get a leaf off a tree limb I'm holding closer to the ground). She is getting much easier to groom and obviously enjoys it.

The vet said she was a "very healthy" pup.


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## SCRMG

Awww... she is very pretty! It sounds like she is adjusting well to her life as a LGD! It is so great to watch pups mature into guardians. I've been out to sea for awhile, but it was great to log in and read your update.


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks SCRMG. She is really growing. Here is a picture taken yesterday (with a comparison to the one taken shortly after we got her). Quite a difference now as her little puppy-fur-ball look is gone.

I've discovered Valentina does not bark much. She'll give a little "woof" (sometmes two) and that's about it. Cujo appears to be taking care of this pup by letting her eat his food (as well as his own) and he takes the leavings of any raw meat/bone she has enjoyed. The two of them are playing more roughly and sometimes Valentina gets knocked over and yelps. Then she rolls over, gets up and runs to get Cujo again...LOL

It has become obvious Valentina has bonded with everything on this place; and though she enjoys being assertive, I've not often seen her aggressive. What I really like most about what has occurred over the past couple of months is the way she will succumb to whatever is required with regard to her grooming. This really came in handy recently when I heard her yelp twice as though she had been badly hurt. I rushed out the back door while David jumped off the front porch and called her. She came out of the front pasture (tail wagging) and let David and I maneuver her entire body for over 5 minutes. We laid her down on her side, turned her on her back, held her shoulders and head up while she was on her back, stood her on just her back feet. She showed no signs of fear yet seemed to know this was a serious situation as she was so calm during the entire time we checked her body, limbs and joints for problems. (Apparently the time I've spent grooming her has paid off!) We found nothing wrong and shortly thereafter Cujo came up from the front pasture; so I'm thinking they were roughhousing it and she got knocked too hard. (I'm wondering how that playfulness is going to go when she has become larger than Cujo.)


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## nchen7

it's great she's doing so well! certainly doesn't look like a puppy anymore...starting to get that weird adolescent stage. she's so great though. love her!


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Nchen7

Update....

Valentina is just a little over half the size of Cujo now...OMG in such a short time!

I set up the little kiddie pool (used for geese to bathe in) under the shade trees and introduced Valentina to it. Wasn't long before I found her with all fours in that pool bouncing around. She obviously loves water!

Valentina is eating well and following commands "pretty well". Her attention span is still a little short; but I can tell she remembers when I remind her. (Example, I was bringing in the groceries yesterday and Valentina wanted to come into the house. She put her little front feet past the threshhold but I saw her and, with a reminder ("uh uh"), she back tracked. This occurred 3 times before she quit trying; and I could leave the door open with just the mesh screen hanging over that entrance.)

Also, finally she is too large to get thru the geese door in the fencing; so now I no longer need to concern myself about her getting into my garden when I'm too tired to correct her. 

I've been wondering about what to give her when she starts cutting her permanent teeth. (I tried one of those rubbery teeth-cutting bones that does not splinter. She got her baby teeth stuck in it; so I had to take it away and give her something she could chew up.) Would appreciate any suggestions?


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## SCRMG

Wow. It sounds like your girl is doing great! It's amazing how fast they grow. I'm not sure about the Karachen, but I know my Sarplaninacs have phenomenally powerful jaws. They just don't make chew toys for a dog like that! To get through teething, I have done 2 things. I freeze raw cow bones and give them these. The cool temperature really helps sooth their gums. The other thing was quad tires. My husband got new tires for his quad, so I cleaned up the old ones, and they went into the goat pen. The goats and dogs alike enjoyed the new toys, and the dogs were not able to tear through them the way they did every other chew toy.


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## audrey

Just found this thread and have thoroughly enjoyed it! Really loving reading her progress  Shes such a nobel pup!


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## motdaugrnds

Thanks Audrey.

SCRMG I really like those Sarplaninacs. Not only are they powerful but I like their quiet temperament. I'm not sure I could handle one as it seems a little more wild than my Karakachan and my place is just too small, i.e. 6 acres. But if I couldn't have gotten this Karakachan, I would have bought one of those Sars and given it a try (with the seller's understanding that it would be returned inside a year if I couldn't give it the type of guidance it needed to fit my place).


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## motdaugrnds

Update on Valentina .... 

Valentina is doing quite well, though I am starting to wonder if she's eating enough. She reminds me now of a lanky "human" entering adolescents as she appears awkward, is taller than she was by quite a bit and, though still has good weight on her, does not appear to be gaining weight.

I have been giving both dogs "Taste of the Wild" and, though they are eating it, Valentina doesn't eat it as well as Cujo does...a little here; a little there. (I'm keeping it out all the time now as both dogs seem to be keeping the chickens away from it.) When I hold some in my hand, Valentina will eat it readily. I just have not seen her eat much of it throughout the day. Both dogs are still getting the raw meats/bones too. Today they each got a leg of the "Jumbo Cornish X Rocks" I had in the freezer. (I thawed it just a little, so it was still slightly frozen when they received it.) Cujo actually ate his this time instead of saving it for Valentina. Then he walked up about 2-1/2 feet from Valentina apparently checking hers out. Valentina growled at him so he circled her while she kept a diligent eye on him and then proceeded to leave her alone with it and lay down on the back steps watching her. Valentina didn't quite know what to do with hers as it was the first time she had been given "chicken" and it was, also, the first time she had been given a slightly frozen piece of meat. She did finish it off though.

Here is a recent photo of Valentina enjoying the cool grasses with the goats.


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## SCRMG

Your girl is so cute stretched out there! As long as she's eating, and her coat looks good, I wouldn't worry too much about her being lanky. Pups tend to chunk up and then thin out suddenly as they grow taller. This is especially noticeable in large and giant breeds where for the first year, they are growing height wise. During the second year, they will begin to put on bulk. For the most part, raising a breed like this is like raising a draft horse colt, you actually want them to look a little lanky during their first year or so of bone development. Extra weight or bulk at this stage would put extra stress on the bones and could lead to development issues in the bones. I attached a couple picts of my Sar. You can see that she has done the same thing you described, in the first picture she's still pretty round looking, but she's incredibly lanky in the second picture. This is normal development for a puppy.

















I liked your comments about the Sar. You are right, they have a touch of the wild in them. Sometimes I look at my girl and could swear I'm looking into the eyes of a wolf. Fortunately, they are much more dog in their day to day mannerisms. They actually do not require much space, and seem to get their exercise within the confines they are provided, and prefer to stay close to their charges. The down side to this breed (if you consider it a downside) is unlike a lot of LGD breeds, they are not easy to rehome. They bond with a single master, and family as well as their herd, and will protect both. They are incredibly leary of strangers, and I would imagine that bonding with a mature Sar would take a very committed owner.


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## motdaugrnds

SCRMG, thank you for staying with me on this subject. I have felt so very ignorant about LGDs in general and have appreciated every bit of personal experiences shared from all who own them.

Your Sar is just beautiful; and with that temperament, she would have made a very nice addition to my homestead....hoping to possibly get one in the future. She does have longer hair than my Kara and I'm wondering if our hot/humid summers would be too much for that breed. Still she and Valentina seem to be similar in temperament. I believe it would be a breed I would thoroughly enjoy and do well with...as I am apparently doing well with Valentina. (I question amost ever step I take with my pup; however, so far all is working out well for her and has not been that much of a strain for me.)

Valentina is thoroughly enjoying hugs from me and will be very still for those hugs even if I decide to lift her front legs up to give them to her. She takes the hug in real well, yet it is short lived as she then will simply walk away. (Cujo is quite different in that he apparently cannot get enough hugs. I had initially brought him into the house to house break him shortly after he had been weaned and during that time he learned he could get into my lap and sleep. Now, as large as he is, if he is in the house and I sit down in my recliner, he still comes over, puts his chin on my chair arm & looks up at me with those soulful eyes. All I need do is say "ok" and up he comes...all 80+ pounds of him. He lays down immediately and will not move an inch until I decide it is time for him to get off. Since Valentina has been here, I have not let Cujo in the house and I suspect he is missing that lap time.)


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## motdaugrnds

update...

Valentina is experiencing something quite new to her. With the days being so hot/humid here and Cujo suffering from them (much more so than Valentina), I have been letting him come into my house during the hottest part of the days. The first couple of days I did this Valentina would sit at the screen door (just a flap she could get thru easily) and woof woof. I would ignore her and she would leave and go to where she and the goats (and now some fowl too) lounge during the heat of the day. (She no longer woofs when I let Cujo inside.  ) I believe this is good for both Cujo and Valentina. Cujo can get some of the attention he has not been getting since Valentina arrived and Valentina can spend more time bonding with the goats/fowl without another canine around. HeHeHe .. I'm feeling so sneaky and smart!


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## motdaugrnds

Thought you all might enjoy seeing how this little Karakachan has grown. She is only 5 months old now. (In the video you can see how well she doing when I'm combing Cujo, though she does want to interfere and even gives me a little "woof" when I'm giving Cujo his treat. Still she is happy and her short attention span is not keeping her from learning.)


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## motdaugrnds

*update...*

Thought you all might enjoy seeing how Valentina is doing. As you can tell, she has changed quite a bit. No longer is she a puppy. She is starting to look more mature.

She is just completing her first full heat cycle and boy has that been a trying time. She has this particular howl that is quite different from any I've heard before. It is extended with little growls and barks in it. (I've had to lock Cujo up during this time and have even brought Valentina into my bedroom at times during the middle of the night when I needed to get some sleep.) Her cycle should be over by the end of this week; and I'm looking forward to some rest!!!


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## ksalvagno

She is a beauty. Glad she is doing well for you.


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## motdaugrnds

........Yeah!!!!!!!!........ Valentina completed her heat cycle and Cujo is out!


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## awshucksgoatfarmvt

Never heard of the breed pup is amazing, I wish you all the best 
In a way she looks some what like some of the Sarplaninacs I have seen


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## awshucksgoatfarmvt

*A wild SAR?*



SCRMG said:


> Your girl is so cute stretched out there! As long as she's eating, and her coat looks good, I wouldn't worry too much about her being lanky. Pups tend to chunk up and then thin out suddenly as they grow taller. This is especially noticeable in large and giant breeds where for the first year, they are growing height wise. During the second year, they will begin to put on bulk. For the most part, raising a breed like this is like raising a draft horse colt, you actually want them to look a little lanky during their first year or so of bone development. Extra weight or bulk at this stage would put extra stress on the bones and could lead to development issues in the bones. I attached a couple picts of my Sar. You can see that she has done the same thing you described, in the first picture she's still pretty round looking, but she's incredibly lanky in the second picture. This is normal development for a puppy.
> 
> HOw are the pups doing? Have you sold the blonde one ? Molly loves everyone that comes here , except for dogs especially if they come any where near me or the goats. She is so laid back and still has lots of puppy in her for sure. I will post some updated shots of her before the weekend/ She is well socialized as many patients come here to be with the goats. MOlly feels she is still a lap dog as if she were ever one to begin with lol
> I don't understand how one would consider them wild, other than having the depth to their eyes that looks like looking at a wolf
> 
> View attachment 34930
> 
> 
> View attachment 34931
> 
> 
> I liked your comments about the Sar. You are right, they have a touch of the wild in them. Sometimes I look at my girl and could swear I'm looking into the eyes of a wolf. Fortunately, they are much more dog in their day to day mannerisms. They actually do not require much space, and seem to get their exercise within the confines they are provided, and prefer to stay close to their charges. The down side to this breed (if you consider it a downside) is unlike a lot of LGD breeds, they are not easy to rehome. They bond with a single master, and family as well as their herd, and will protect both. They are incredibly leary of strangers, and I would imagine that bonding with a mature Sar would take a very committed owner.


I would never hesitiate to take a SArRas an adult as long as it has not been abused as they are large animals


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## KW Farms

Beautiful!


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