# First Time Kidder (Help us out)



## Chena_Farms (Mar 19, 2016)

SORRY IN ADVANCE FOR THE LONG POST PLEASE ENDURE – just want to get all info out so we can get answers back ASAP – prior to going to town.

Background: 19 MAR 16
Interior Alaska -- temps last night 0 to -2
Goats housed in large unheated barn in ample area pens
Kidding stall has a VERY secure heat lamp with FRESH straw
New to goats BUT I have a background growing up raising cattle, lack 1x my thesis with a masters in Agriculture and worked on a Dairy. Hence have some background with assisted births and such. WITH THAT SAID... been a while since I did all that late 90's and I NEVER raised ANY GOATS till i moved to interior ALASKA 



18 MAR our little year and half old kidded for the first time. I screwed up and let the buck get to her so she was an oops baby with NO idea when the breed date was. Suspected bred but not confirmed till we saw the small udder on 19 FEB


OK so here goes.. 18 MAR with temps in the single digits-- obvious signs of labor and at 600 PM started to push. This happened quick and within minutes we saw feet.. BREACH. No issues I let her push some cause they were just the tips but after around 15 min with no progress and another sac showing I assisted. This helped BUT.. another foot appeared then another foot and I thought the baby was CURLED. Gloved up went in and found what I thought was a head and pushed back the extra legs and the supposed head and the baby instantly released and delivered VERY LIMP and lifeless. Handed it to my spouse and gave direction what to do looked back and the same legs were there again -- ANOTHER BREACH. THEY WERE STACKED on top of each other and the pushing was actually pushing the other baby back releasing the first. Second one delivered fairly easily breach and seemed fine. Wiped off head and gave it to the mother.
Then went to work on what seemed to be a lifeless baby. Worked hard to get it going swing it up side down/ patting it and rubbing vigorously. Finally after some straw up the nose it showed signs of coming around. Was extremely worried because of the amount of passed time. Long story short got him going and with the mother. They both showed signs of wanting to get up fairly quickly. But the mother was extremely tired and just wanted lay around. Used this time to tie and dip navel then moved them away from her to force her to get up and she did. They nosed around for a minute no luck and we tried to help with showing the way with no luck. 45 min passed and they were tired laying down so we decided to milk her and syringe feed them with little luck, the mom passed the placenta during this time while I was getting set up to milk her. Waited hoping the milk would get them up and going but really did not help that much. 1 hour and 15 min passed tried to force some nursing – NO LUCK— gave some selenium paste and milked a little and tube feed a very small amount maybe ¼ to ½ oz. Got them up shortly after but no luck nursing. Nearing 1hr 45 by now and decided maybe we were to involved so moved out of pen and watched while we fumbled around trying to decide what to do next. Over the next hour they seem to just sit down and not try too much and begin to get what seem to be cold. 2hr and 30 min made the move to pull them inside and warm them up and try to bottle feed some milk from the mother. The little girl after warming took about 1 ½ oz from a bottle like a champ at the 3 to 3 ½ hour mark. Little boy prior to moving in did make a last ditch effort to nurse and I assisted with he had some very short attachments as he struggled to stay attached before growing tired. 



Best we can tell the milk consumption was this. 

1 hour – Both ½ oz
3 hours - Girl had another 1 ½ oz ----boy nursed 10 secs maybe and given another ½ oz by tube
6 hours -Girl had another ½ oz --- boy nursed very short and another ½ by tube
9 hour - Girl another 1 oz --- boy sucked very short ONLY no bottle taken
14 hours - Girl had another 1 oz --- boy nursed 20 sec ( they were left with mom after this and boy was seen nursing not sure about the Girl
20 hour - Girl another 1 ½ (suck it down) and boy nursed short burst again. 

OK NOW FOR QUESTIONS 
Are we over concerned?
Did they get enough in the right amount of times?

They still seem wobbly at the 22 hour mark and boy only nurses for a short time but seems to be going at it somewhat often.

Should we consider moving back in for overnight due to temps.

When do they show signs of not being so wobbly? They are not playing and trying to jump around just wobbly--- almost like 12-15 hours behind.

Is not seeing the poop plug come out on boy a concern?

What about the TEMPS—we want them to be mom babies not house babies. 

Little girl not nursing on mom but takes a bottle if forced in her mouth—she at times appears to know she needs to do something and gets set up but just never seen her do it. MOM is very loving to both the babies.

Mom had little prenatal care since they were oops babies. Any advise on what to do here. 
Thoughts were to give CD/T to mom with babies getting it as well in by day 7
No more selenium to babies but maybe some to mom

We live a ways from the nearest town and when we go need to gather what is needed for follow on events now. We have some Revitalite in case we need it and have some molasses. 
LA 200 on hand and thinking of giving it to mom since I did go in her a little bit (only about half my hand.)

What about B vit complex—not sure our feed store will have it. 
What about C&D only in the event of gut issues. 

Thanks for bearing with me on this. Been a while since I drug out my Animal husbandry knowledge and the goats are throwing me for a loop as they are different than cattle PLUS the midwife is really anxious. 

Thanks and I look forward to the comments


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would give them both B Complex. I would also make sure their temp is over 101.


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

I too had a similar experience my first kidding. out of 12 kids only 6 survived.
Dairy goats have been bread for milk and only milk. not kid vitality ,not doe mother ability, not for birthing ease. 
the sad thing is we become attached to the week kids and keep them. this just encourages more week kids. by letting the week die your next kidding generation will be much stronger. that is what happened to my herd the next generation had strong kids.
there are several things you can do next time.
Kid in May
feed 300 eu of vitamin E for 30 days to the doe before birth. you will be amazed how much stronger your kids will be.
in be like mother nature 
harsh. like your winters.


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## melbah1 (Jun 28, 2013)

Wow, sounds like you are doing better with all this than it feels. If they are weak, they can have trouble regulating their body temp and they aren't able to move well enough to get themselves under the heat lamp or out of it to eat. That's too cold for them if they can't get themselves under the lamp. I would keep helping them until you know they are nursing on their own and moving around well enough.

they won't be able to digest the milk if their body temps are too low so make sure they are over 100 degrees when feeding. If they are inside, that shouldn't be a problem, but I would still be checking to make sure.

Selenium and vit B can help with the strength. Sounds like you already gave the selenium? 

If the boy doesn't have a BM you can do an enema. 

If the boy isnt getting enough, then keep tube or syringe feeding. Sounds like he still needs help as well as the girl. I wouldn't worry too much about them being dam raised, sounds like they have a good attatchment and see each other enough to keepit.


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## goatblessings (Jan 6, 2015)

Seems to me like the kids are too cold. Heat lamps don't warm the kid's core - just keeps them warm after their temps are up. I would bring them in, take temps and make sure they are warm. Get some warm milk in them via syringe or bottle after you make sure they are at least 100 degrees.
They really aren't taking enough milk. If they are full size dairy kids, I would say 4-6 oz at least, at least 4x per day. A little karo syrup gives them some energy too. After you have perked them up, then take them back to mom. I also microwave some rice or dry beans and put it under my kids in very cold weather and put coats or sweaters on them for the first few days. Yep, you are up all night for the first few days but these first borns can't regulate their body temps yet.
Just what I do, hope it helps


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## Chena_Farms (Mar 19, 2016)

Update on the Weak Kids:

As mentioned at the end of the post we left them with the mom for the day after kidding. It was still cold but they were up walking around the little boy was nursing some but they spent most of the day just standing under the heat lamp. After chores I decided to bring them in warm them up and was going to check temps... We brought them in the house and within minutes they were trying to jump around... still weak but a good sign. Decided drastic measures were needed so we made a home out of a VERY large box on a plastic pallet with straw and in came the mom. Put them in the box and the little boy went right over and nursed FOREVER... after about an hour the girl figured it out and would not leave mom alone nursing. The next 12 hours saw dramatic changes. They are spunky jumping all over the place, mom is not stressed out looking for her babies and all seems well... EXCEPT... mom showed some signs of going off feed. We gave B vitamin, molasses water and probiotic and this seems to be helping she is now eating hay again but her poop is now clumpy and mushy. Still holding the bead form but clumpy and just different texture. I have not wormed as I am afraid to worm due to resistance but open to thoughts... have ivomectrin on hand. 

Overall less stress, more sleep and all seems to be going better... Also the kids are pooping and all that looks good for now. I would say they are still a good 15 hours behind where they should be but improving dramatically. If mom still shows signs of off feed tomorrow I am going to put some nutri drench down her and keep up with the molasses water as she LOVES it. Wow should have paid attention better in Dairy Science in college. 

any thoughts would be appreciated--


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I would just keep doing what you are doing.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.


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## jaimn (May 16, 2015)

Chena_Farms said:


> Update on the Weak Kids:
> 
> ... mom showed some signs of going off feed. We gave B vitamin, molasses water and probiotic and this seems to be helping she is now eating hay again but her poop is now clumpy and mushy. Still holding the bead form but clumpy and just different texture. I have not wormed as I am afraid to worm due to resistance but open to thoughts... have ivomectrin on hand.
> 
> --


All my girls had mushy stools too, which I also freaked out about until the kind folks here told me that does do that after kidding! I had wormed too, but it maybe has something to do with the hormones and "relaxing" the body for birth? Plus the stress of kidding!

A goat mentor and dairy lady said that she's never known anyone not to stress out over their first time kidding - it just means you care. 

Thanks for sharing what you are going through; I look forward to pictures!


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## wndngrvr (Dec 10, 2011)

Stressing over first time kidding - wish it was only that time. I stress over all birthings. Lambs and kids. I always try to be with them to make sure all goes as well as possible. 
I started doing my own fecals a few years back and that has worked for me pretty good. I do check with the vet if there are concerns or questions. Learned how from Fiascofarm website. I also worry about resistance. 
Had a ewe go downhill before birthing (I think going into ketosis) and then ended up with bottle jaw and resistance to ivermectin. Found levamisole was back on the market and it worked great.


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## Chena_Farms (Mar 19, 2016)

Latest update on the weak kids. They are doing GREAT. Jumping around and getting into everything. I never thought when my wife got these goats that i would become so attached.. I am livestock production oriented but I am already sad to post these little guys up for sale. If you are interested in pictures my wife started a Facebook page called Chena Farms-- located in Anderson Alaska -- pics of the little guys there. 

Thanks for the help and advice.. sure I will be back for more


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