# hoof deformity ?



## ali pearson

Hi there, Ali here. I tried to post this yesterday but must have failed. Here's my new hoof challenge: Noggin, my 8 month old giant wether from Butthead Packgoats has a weird back right hoof. The outside toe tries to fold under, and he rocks too far back on his heels. He gets sore on walks and shows some bruising because of the bad position his foot is in. I got a ferrier for horse hoof repairs out to look at him, and he applied some epoxy to build up a wedge to try to keep him walking upright on the toe. That fell off five days later, and I replaced it myself with the horse hoof epoxy. Here is a picture of the hoof before the second attempt to fix it.

My question is, does anyone have any experience with this kind of hoof problem?


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## Shelly Borg

Can we see a pic from the back and also the bottom.


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## ali pearson

the hoof is now partially covered with the epoxy wedge so I can't take more pictures but here are some other slightly different angles. Basically he rocks too far back onto his heels a lot, both back feet, so that his toes point up at an angle towards the sky, and on the worst foot that you can see in the photos he is standing on the wall of the hoof instead of the bottom of his foot. From the bottom it looks like his heel has melted and smooshed under his foot, and from the back it looks like his outside right toe has collapsed inward and is bulging into the other toe.


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## ali pearson

Here's another one.


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## Rex

I need to see some good side shots showing the pastern angle and maybe one of the bottom of the hoof as well. Generally a goat that rocks back on his heels has bad pasterns. Not too much you can do to fix that. 

If the pastern angle is acceptable and the toes roll over its usually because they have become too long. Most people are afraid to trim down the soft part but if they are growing long it needs to be done. Usually a drywall rasp works well to take off small amounts at a time. Go till its pink and let it go for a week or so to toughen back up then do it again. It'll take a while but you'll eventually gain on it. Make sure to trim the bent over part as well to try and get his toes back together normally.

Of course I'm just guessing without seeing some better angles.

I'm not sure how the wedges work unless he has an actual physical deformity causing the problem.


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## Shelly Borg

How long has this been going on and how old is the goat?
I am new to the goat world but not hoofs and triming. We really need a bottom shot side shot and if you could please a side and back shot of the whole goat. I want to see how joints are looking.


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## ali pearson

Thanks for responding you guys. The goat is a nine month old wether I've had for five months. The ferrier who came to see him watched him walk and thought his pasterns looked fine, although he is a horse ferrier. I will take some more pictures today, although he has the epoxy wedge on there so his foot posture will be corrected by that. You will be able to see more.

I noticed a very slight tipping inward of the bad toe when I went up and got him from the breeder.

I've been trimming and rasping his hooves a little every week or so for the last few months (ever since I got him) trying to correct this problem. breeder. I run into red bruised looking tissue. The ferrier agreed. I don't think I can take the hoof down any further. I've had him and my other three pack goats on a horse hoof vitamin pellet for a few months as well. It has zinc and biotin. And kelp powder. It has really helped my guy with the cracked hoof-he's all better now and the hoof has grown out so the crack no longer goes through the corona. But Noggin's hoof doesn't seem to be benefitting from the supplements.

Their pasture is not muddy, they have a huge rock pile to climb on, he doesn't have any hoof rot, he doesn't favor the foot, but I also have only taken him on one four mile hike and he was definitely bruised on the bad foot afterwards. I bought some great dog booties to put on him next hike to try to ease him into walking more while his hoof is still a problem.


Ali


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## ali pearson

Here are some more pics. I tried to get ones that show the repaired hoof and the "good" hoof which shows a little bit of the tendency that the repair is trying to fix. I know that in these pictures it looks like his hoof is a little long. The ferrier told me to not take them shorter because there is just not much hoof there. You can also see that all his toes look a little narrow, and that even the good hoof on his left is not great, showing the thing where his heel looks like it's folding under and collapsing. I just can't seem to be able to establish an edge on the back end of his heel even with my best trimming attempts. I just run out of hoof.


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## ali pearson

I can only seem to figure out how to post one picture at a time, so here we go.


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## ali pearson

and another


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## ali pearson

and from the bottom


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## ali pearson

here you can see how the repair corrects his foot posture. You can also see that the other toes are turning up slightly. Hmmm.


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## ali pearson

and here is the picture you requested of the whole goat from the back.


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## Shelly Borg

I want some one else to chime in before you start to cut.

It looks like he need more toe taken and hoof wall. Goats are not like a horse where they need a ridge of wall to walk on. Goats walk flat as do sheep and cattle ( I have done horse as well as cattle and sheep trimming). There hoofs when done right are flat with walls coming up no more then the soft center. Every thing level. It also looks like some of the endside of the hood needs to be removed. 

As I said please let at least one more person chime in. Also there are a couple books out there that deal in goat hoof care. Do you have a dairy near you or even call the local 4H office and talk to a goat leader.


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## Rex

Well it doesn't look that bad in the new photo's. The pastern angle seems fine. I would trim the folded over portion between the toes to get the toes back together first. You can trim off much more of the pad than you think. Just do it small slices. Once you have the toes fitting back together, the bottom will work itself out with regular trimming. It looks like the toes are long as well which will force the goat back on the rear of its foot. Use the hair line as a guide and try to trim the bottom of the toe parrellel with it. The red spots in the pad are common in goats and nothing out of the ordinary.

Most people don't bother trimming the bulging pad between the toes which eventually leads to widely splayed toes and other foot problems. Also, I wouldn't use any epoxy because it will only allow more weight to be put on the bent over part, aggravating the problem. 

Get the toes back together and the rest should follow. FYI..... horse ferriers don't know squat about goat feet. Nothing against ferriers, they are just two totally different animals and one has nothing to do with the other.


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## ali pearson

Thanks so much to both of you. I will try some additional trimming. I'm so relieved to hear that it doesn't look like soft pasterns or some other leg conformation problem.

I have helped several people trim entire herds of meat goats in order to get experience myself, and have had no problem with making 15 of the 16 hoofs in my herd look fine trimming wise. I am a sculptor by trade and have a good grasp of shapes and mechanics. but I haven't encountered hoofs like this guy's. He is exceptionally large, and has never tried to jump up on things like normal goats. I wonder if he has some kind of gigantism that has affected his hoof development. But I am relieved to hear that it might not be too bad. I sure hope he can be a packer because he has a great temperament and is super nice and friendly. 
Ali


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## Rex

Either you are very small or he is very large for an eight month old. It Looks like he has lots of potential to become a huge goat.


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## ali pearson

That's Nog with my friend Melisse, who is smaller than I am, but Noggin is really really big for an 8 month old. he is as big as my two year old alpine packgoat wether, and taller than my Boer/lamancha two and a half year olds. (but not as fat, of course) I just hope his hooves will support him.

Ali


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## jross

"Once you have the toes fitting back together, the bottom will work itself out with regular trimming. It looks like the toes are long as well which will force the goat back on the rear of its foot. Use the hair line as a guide and try to trim the bottom of the toe parrellel with it. The red spots in the pad are common in goats and nothing out of the ordinary."

That is very good advice, Rex. I agree that the toes look long. And I agree that long toes make the foot rock backwards. The tip about making the bottom of the hoof parallel to the hair line is a new one on me, and I will certainly start doing that. Thanks for the knowledge!!

The one thing I would add is that Ali should take her goats out hiking more often. Just standing around in the pen, eating, and loafing will make your goats soft, dumb, and weak (just like people who sit on their butts and stare at computer screens all the time). They really need, and enjoy, hikes. That's what we have packgoats for anyway, isn't it? It's that kind of excercise that will strengthen the pasterns and everything else. Just don't over do it. If he starts lagging behind, then it's time to start back to the truck. I try to hike with my goats at least once a week. We all need it.


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## ali pearson

Thanks Rex and Jross-

Your advice has been really valuable to me. I have tried using my dremel tool to really sculpt his hoofs with more controll and I feel like I'm getting somewhere now, especially with the "parallel to the hairline" rule in mind. I have also started including him on my morning dog walk on pavement and gravel roads-about 1/2 mile. He loves it and comes along well, and I think you're right that it will toughen up his hooves enough that I can trim them without hitting that pink part. 

Ali


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## bhpackgoats

Hello Ali this butt-head pack goats.

When you contacted me on November 1st about Nogginâ€™s hoof I told you that I thought this was a trimming problem. Iâ€™m glad that some other people have given you the same advice as we did with how the hoof needed to be trimmed. I can assure you that he does not have some â€œgigantism.â€ we do have big pack goats and they have never had any hoof or growing problems. I hope his foot gets better because we really do care about all the babies that leave our farm. 

Thank you to Rex, shellyborg and jross for helping Ali with her problem. 

Carol


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## Rex

Hi Carol, welcome to the forum. 

No thanks are necessary, we're all here because we like to help out when we can. As a group we contain a vast amount of cumulative knowledge. Forums are a great way to channel this collective knowledge into usable information. I hope you can hang around and contribute as well.


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## ali pearson

*nog hoof update*

Hi there, I thought I would post some pictures of how Noggin's hoof is looking after 7 weeks of intensive weekly trimming and heel building. I think it's doing a lot better thanks to y'all's advice. I used the epoxy to build up his heel untill about 10 days ago. I think he's up on it enough now that he doesn't need the epoxy but I think I will still trim it up every week untill he's all the way up straight.


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## jross

*Re: nog hoof update*

Looking good! Do you have something in the goat pen for them to jump and climb on? That would also help them to build up their pasterns, tendons, muscles, etc. I have an old wooden cable spool in the pen. They love to jump up on it. Are you still taking him for hikes? The rougher the better, with steep climbs and rocks.

Here's Mr. Moose on a hike this past fall doing what he does best. His hooves and legs are wonderful because this is what he has done all his life.


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## Rex

Looks like you are almost there. Good work! The toes are much shorter and the rolled over part in between the toes is about gone. I'd say you've got him straightened out. Jross is right. Jumping and climbing on rough objects like rocks and old concrete blocks or slabs will help as well.


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## ali pearson

I am still walking him every day on gravel roads and pavement and hiking him on steep rocky trails about once a week, weather permitting. He has spools, a huge rock pile, and cement climbing sculptures I built in his pen. Recently I installed a maze of concrete chunks over the wet part of their pasture and they love playing keep off the ground on them. (got that tip from the forum on what to do about mud)

Thanks again for all your help. I can't believe how lucky I am that there are other people out there who care about my goat's hooves. My non-goat friends (yes I still have a few) think I'm obscessed. I have a picture of Nog's hoof as my screen saver to remind me to take care of it on a daily basis. That's normal isn't it?

Ali


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## Rex

ali pearson said:


> I have a picture of Nog's hoof as my screen saver to remind me to take care of it on a daily basis. That's normal isn't it?
> 
> Ali


Sounds perfectly normal to me.


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## sweetgoatmama

Something else you might consider. Very often these things get started when the goat is growing and is deficient in either zinc or magnesium. Check to see that he's getting plenty of minerals and also he might benefit from some additional phosphorus in the form of a little grain. Of course, you will also need to feed him a litle alfalfa to balance it. I'd start him on half a cup of COB mixed with Alfalfa pellets, especially when he is going thru growth spurts. THis would only be done for a short while, like a month with a month off, to add support till he gets through his two year old growth spurt. He's a big animal and they need more food to support growth.


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## ali pearson

Thanks Caroline for the dietary advice. I will check my feeding and supplement routine for him and make sure it follows your outlined program. He currently is getting about two cups a day of Purina goat chow(basically COB and alfalfa ballanced correctly for calcium and phosphorus), 1/4 flake of alfalfa, open feeding on orchard grass hay, a half teaspoon of horse hoof supplement with magnesium and zinc, a half teaspoon of kelp powder, open acess to "gold blend" goat vitamins from Hoegger's, and an orange natural mineral salt block.
I'm probably overdoing it, but he is growing really fast.
Should I cut back on the Purina goat chow?

Ali


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## sweetgoatmama

At his age he needs the groceries. Watch his body condition and see that he's not getting fat. If he starts to gain fat cut him back. At a year you'll want to cut back some, a lot of people feed the goodies every other day and just grass hays on the alternate day. Again, watch the weight, as you'll want to increase during growth spurts but decrease when he isn't growing as much.

You'll keep working this way, decreasing the goodies till he's about 3.


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## ali pearson

Thanks Caroline, duly noted. I have enough fat goats.

Ali


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