# Normal or bloat??



## happyhogs

I am about to get my first two pygmies and have done tons of research but....I have found lots of information on bloat but not really on how you know the difference between healthy, normal fat tummies caused by the normal digestion process and the abnormal tummies caused by bloat.

I went to a safari park yesterday and all the pygmies there had huge tummies, they all looked heavily pregnant actually, even the boys!! They all seemed perfectly happy and comfortable and when I cuddled them and stroked their tummies they were oblivious so I am assuming this is 'normal' despite the fact that they were massive! Do all goats swell to this extent or do you think this was down to the large amount of pellets they must get at the park as you can buy it by the boxfull to feed to them? Will I see this level of swelling in my boys and if so, is that an indication of good rumen activity or over-feeding?

Thanks x


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## Ariel301

Unfortunately petting zoo and safari park goats many times are overweight because they just stand around getting handfed all day long. At least they are starting to feed them better foods now; when I was a kid the zoo would give us big cupfuls of dry dog food for the goats. 

If they were eating and acting comfortable, they are not bloated; just round and full of food. It's hard to tell a goat's body condition by the roundness of its body though; like you can with some other animals, as a goat's digestive tract can hold a large volume, giving you the appearance of a very fat animal, when it might actually be undernourished. I've got a doe that always looks pregnant, but she's just a big goat. A better way to tell their body condition is to feel the rib cage and the area along the spine--you should be able to feel ribs, but not see them, and there should be a bit of padding around the spine, but again, you ought to be able to feel the vertebrae but not see them. (Dairy animals will of course be very thin a lot of the time; it's just the way they are.) If there is so much fat you can't feel the ribcage, the animal is overweight. If you can really see their ribs and spine sticking out, they are too thin. 

A bloated goat will act abnormal. It will sometimes stand in a weird position, and likely not want any food. If you watch it for a while and don't see it burp or chew its cud, there may be a problem. Goats burp fairly regularly, and bloated goats can't burp the gas out of their stomachs. The animal's body will be uncomfortably distended, especially on the left side; more so than a goat with just a big stomachful of food. It may not like you to touch/push on the distended area because it is painful. It's also good to keep a stethoscope around in your first aid kit to listen for gut sounds on a goat that you suspect is bloated or otherwise ill--you should hear 1-2 little gurgly noises a minute on a healthy goat; a bloated goat with its rumen not working will not make sounds normally. The best thing is to know your own goats; what is normal for them. Mine are always round on the left side because I let them have pretty much all the hay they like. 

The one goat I have had that bloated had some weird symptoms that made it take a while to find out she was just bloated. She was laying down, and when I checked on her, she thrashed around like she had a hard time getting up, and then she was wobbly and kept falling over and rolling around on the ground like she couldn't get up again. I took her to the vet, and the vet had no idea what was wrong. She did seem bloated, and was not eating or burping, so I took her home and put a stomach tube in her and also gave her a little bit of dish soap (dish soap helps with 'frothy' bloat, where they are filled up with tiny foamy gas bubbles that they can't burp). Within hours she was much better; we were sure she was going to die before the stomach tube. It was actually my luck that at the time she got sick, I had a book about goats checked out from the library that showed how to do the stomach tube. It was actually not terribly difficult, and it's a good skill to know, especially if you don't have a vet that knows much about goats, or you live far from one. (It can take hours where I live to get in touch with a vet--recently my horse was sick and actually ended up dying while I was sitting on the phone on hold with the animal hospital!)


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## happyhogs

Thanks for the info x

The safari park goats did not seem overweight, they still had a good goat shape, just these very round, ballooon-like tummies. The pellets they give them are apparently just compressed, dried grass so I assume are not bad for them but they must get a lot. I also saw two grab and eat the cardboard box that the pellets come in so I assume that must also be quite a regular occurence!

Anyway, I guess you're right, I will have a better idea once I get to know my boys. It was the same when I got my chickens, I can now spot problems immediately because I know their habits and personalities intimately.

I am lucky enough to live in a rural area though and have an excellent farm vet on hand who also happens to have his twin boys in my school, where the goats and the chickens live, so he is happy to have a quick look, free of charge, whenever I ask, while he's there to pick up the children....well, almost free of charge...usually half a dozen fresh, free range eggs!! 

I'm so sorry to hear about your horse, that must have been heartbreaking. Big hugs xx


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## liz

True pygmies will be round and thick looking, like barrels on short stout legs. The rumen is usually high on the left side often giving the appearance of a lopsided goatie :greengrin: 

A bloated goat is a miserable goat and when the left side is thumped, it will sound hollow like a drum.

I see a big differencce in how my pygmies look compared to my nigies....and even though nigies are dairy goats, they are not always as lean looking as some of the larger dairy breeds.


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## happyhogs

Yeah, I did notice a number of the goats were lopsided in their ballooons....now I know why!! 

Thank you for the tip about the drum noise...I'll keep an eye out for that as well as the behaviour changes. Let's hope I never get this particular issue!

And I love Nigies but they are impossible to come by over here, no-one seems to have them. I love your signature Liz, gorgeous!!!


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## sparks879

Not to run off topic but im confused. the two goats you showed the pictures of are nigerians not pygmies. 
beth


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## happyhogs

Now I'm confused too Beth :hammer: ....did you mean my pics of Teddy and Tumnus? I was told they are Pygmies, not Nigies and as I mentioned in another post, I couldn't find anyone at all in UK who bred Nigies....are you saying they are wrong? (not that I mind what they are as long as they are happy and healthy!)

What are the main differences between the two breeds? I have done a google images search and can see similarities with both breeds in Teddy and Tumnus but thought they were too 'round' to be Nigies and as no-one over here seems to breed them, assumed the info I was given on them to be correct. 

Whatever they are, they are adorable and I'll love them to bits but it would be nice to know out of interest what breed they are so.....?? :greengrin:


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## StaceyRosado

having a bit of a belly doesnt denote them as pygmy -- most people call a mini goat "pygmy" because they have no idea that a mini goat would be anything but that.

Pygmies come in specific color patterns.

Here are examples of how pygmies look as well as their only color patterns
http://www.npga-pygmy.com/resources/con ... amples.asp

Nigerians on the other hand have a much longer face, more length to their body and tend to me more "refined" this doesnt mean they wont have a belly but their over all build is less stocky in appearance. Their coloring is varied and they can even have blue eyes.
http://www.ndga.org/about.html


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## sparks879

the two breeds can at times look very similar. but pygmies were originally bred for meat and nigies for dairy. a lot of nigies have short legs and more stalky then they should be. Nigies can be any color while pygmies have specific color patturns.
heres a copy of the american pygmy standard, i imagine its similar over there.
1. GENERAL DESCRIPTION:
The Pygmy Goat is genetically small, cobby, and compact. Its frame is clearly defined and
well angulated; limbs and head are short relative to body length. The Pygmy Goat is fullbarreled
and well muscled; the body circumference in relation to height and weight is
proportionately greater than that of dairy breeds. The Pygmy Goat is hardy, agile, alert and
animated, good-natured, and gregarious. The legs and feet should work together so that
the gait (tracking) is smooth, balanced, ground covering and effortless. (06-16)
2. BREED CHARACTERISTICS:
COAT - The full coat of straight, medium long hair varies in density with seasons and
climates. On does, beards may be non-existent or sparse. On adult bucks, abundant hair
growth is desirable; the beard to be full, long and flowing, the copious mane draping, capelike,
across the shoulders.
COLOR AND BREED-SPECIFIC MARKINGS:
SOLID BLACK: Body Colors: All body hairs black in color. No other solid colors are
acceptable. Required Markings: none. Optional Markings: white patches or bellybands
anywhere on barrel between point of elbow and stifle joint
BLACK: Body Colors: All body hairs black in color. No other solid colors are acceptable.
Required Markings: muzzle, crown, eyes and ears distinctly accented in white. Optional
Markings: (a) white patches or bellybands anywhere on barrel between point of elbow and
stifle joint; (b) tail accented in white.
AGOUTI - Body Colors: All body colors are acceptable. The predominant coloration is
formed by the intermingling of lighter and darker hairs producing an appearance ranging
from highly grizzled to nearly solid. Required Markings: (a) muzzle, crown, eyes and ears
distinctly accented in white and may be intermingled with hairs the same color as body;
(b) hoofs, socks, face, and forehead distinctly darker than main body color. Optional
Markings: (a) white patches or bellybands anywhere on barrel between point of elbow and
stifle joint; (b) dorsal stripe darker than the main body color; (c) varying degrees of
grizzling on areas of the body (such as the chest, shoulders, mane, and tail).
CARAMEL - Body Color: Any shade of white through dark tan. Required Markings:
(a) muzzle, crown, eyes and ears distinctly accented in white and may be intermingled
with hairs the same color as body; (b) Vertical stripes on center front of socks same color
as body; (c) hoofs, sides and rear of socks, dorsal stripe and martingale accented in black
or brown; (d) Face: Accented in black or brown. Amount ranges from partial to complete
according to age and gender. Optional Markings: white patches or bellybands anywhere
on barrel between point of elbow and stifle joint.
pygmies are a lot shorter bodied and tend to get a pot belly they tend to have bdoader faces as well.
pygmy kid
http://www.colleenpatrick.com/blog/uplo ... 720491.jpg
pygmy doe
http://static.gotpetsonline.com/picture ... t-0055.jpg
nigies are much more refined (but can be fat easily) more dairy and longer legged. Their heads are longer down the face and ears are set a little higher on the head.
nigie doe
http://twincreeksfarm.com/images/Zinnia072702lowres.jpg
nigie kid
http://breederinfocenter.com/images2/20 ... 5853_1.jpg
of course i could be totally wrong on your boys but they sure look like the nigies we have here
beth


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## happyhogs

so that WOULD make my guys Nigies after all...or maybe a crossbreed?? I looked at Nigies when I first began my research but all the pics were on US sites and they looked much hairier than the pygmy pics on the UK sites but maybe that was down to temperate issues?

How odd that no-one calls them Nigerian Dwarfs over here then? I realise people can generalise when they are casual owners/breeders but you would expect SOME people to distinguish the difference and yet look.....cut and pasted from the British Goat Society website...

The Pygmy Goat Club has set breed standards regarding size and type, and organises show classes for Pygmy goats. It has its own registration and pedigree system aimed at improvement by selective breeding. Basically the adult Pygmy has a maximum height at the withers of approximately 56 cm for males, less for females, short legs and cobby bodies that give an impression of perpetual pregnancy. They can be any colour except completely white, with white Swiss markings on the face not allowed. 

Note what they are saying about colour....hence my assumptions!!

I appreciate having it pointed out to me though Sparks and thank you Stacey for clarifying the colour thing....I shall try and remember to refer to them as Nigies in future!


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## sparks879

So glad to be of help! It is odd that noe one calls them that there. I did a google search looking for nigies in england and came up with nothing. But when i did one for pygmies in england i found tons of results. But when i looked through the pictures of the pygmies im seeing both nigies and pygmies.
beth


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## happyhogs

Well, I'm glad it's not just me!!! :thumbup: I am always so thorough in my research and like to know the ins and outs of everything before I get a type of animal I've never had before, hence why I joined your forum! There seem to be none of those in the UK either and so little info in general. Most of my research was done on US sites but once I'd been told my boys were pygmies, I never thought to do a comparison with the Nigies to make sure. 

I would imagine, in honesty, that they are a crossbreed. They are coming from an open farm, where people pay to go in and pet the animals and children can play with them. Because they were coming to the school, I needed child-friendly kids and I will also admit, I was too impatient to wait the four to five months that most 'proper breeders' were quoting me! The £200 price tag was a bit daunting too!

Anyway, my boys will be worshipped and adored no matter what their parentage but I really do appreciate the pointers xxx


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## sparks879

totally understand! i always have a hard time waiting for baby season. Five months is a long time.
beth


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## liz

Thank you for the compliment on my sig happyhogs.....I too think that your boys could be pygmy/nigi crosses, not only because of the color pattern on Tunmas, but also because of their build. Best of both original true mini's! I raise pygmy/nigi crosses and can really see the difference between the 2 breeds at birth.


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## sparks879

I agree that they may be crosses, not quite as refined and dairy as a nigie but not nearly as stalkiy and heavy as a pygmy.
beth


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## happyhogs

I was just looking at your website actually Liz, trying to see the differences between the two breeds and the resulting crossbreeds and am even more convinced of a cross too!

And Sparks, the waiting seems a lifetime when it's your first time! I have waited 30 years for these and five months more was just too much!! :ROFL: 

I need to be so careful though, I could see these guys being soooo addictive!! I am limited at the moment by the schools terms and conditions but intend, in the not too distant future, to move house, specifically to get a place with some land and then.....! Gulp! It could mean my hubby getting very cross!! :greengrin: He already has to cope with my obsessions over my eleven pygmy hedgehogs, one tortoise, one cockerel, twelve hens, four Bengal cats and my soon-to-be F1 Savannah cat. Now these two goats have joined the fray and oh, how many could follow????! :ROFL:


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## sparks879

You have bengals????? I want to breed my female to a bengal so bad. She is a manx, i love the banx crosses. but i dont even know where to start. She is tabby spotted mostly rather then striped.
beth


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## liz

Wow...you really have a menagerie going don't you? Don't worry....more goats are the inevitable so you may as well get your DH used to the idea now :ROFL: 

Yes, there is definate differences with the crosses....Angel is an example, her dad is Hank, my black pygmy....her mom is a cream and gold nigi/pygmy cross...Angel has the color of a nigi, the face of a nigi but she has the shorter chunkier legs and hoofs of a pygmy. Bootsie is a very good example as well...the color of a pygmy with the short chunky legs and pygmy belly with the long neck and body of a nigi.


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## happyhogs

Yes Sparks, four Bengal boys, all neutered...two brown spotted half brothers and two blue eyed snow spotted full brothers. They are the love of my life. All my animals are precious to me, of course, but I have an amazing relationship with my feline fellas and just adore them! They adore me back and adore each other too, loving to just snuggle up in a heap....










And Liz, as I only have TWO DAYS :leap: :leap: to go til I get them, I'll be able to see whether they are stumpy Pigmies, more refined Nigies or a cross of the two....the latter I suspect! Your goaties are gorgeous!!


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## Ariel301

Beautiful cats! I love the color of the lighter two.


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## liz

Oh boy!!! Definately getting closer to bringing your boys home!!

A tip on transporting them...if it is a fairly long drive, it might be best to have them travel together in a large dog crate.

Awww, your kitties are so pretty!


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## sparks879

beautiful cats! I bet you are dancing awaiting the arrival of your goats!
beth


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## happyhogs

Have added the finishing touches to the pen today, put some willow toys in, got all the bedding and stuff in and ready....getting my boys tomorrow!!!!

Thanks for the transport tip Liz, that is actually my plan! I bought a large dog crate from Ebay, have thoroughly scrubbed and disinfected it (though it was in excellent condition) but am now a little worried it won't be big enough for two so have borrowed a second crate from a friend, just in case. I have old blankets to put in there so they are warm and comfy and another to put over the top of the cages in case they get stressed....it is about 90 minutes journey home.


Oh gosh, I am soooo excited, I'm not gonna get a wink of sleep tonight! :leap: :leap: :leap: :leap: :leap: :leap: :leap: :leap: :leap:


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## happyhogs

oh and thank you for the comments on my cats, they ARE pretty special!


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