# Milky discharge, signs of heat or already bred?



## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

Hi, sorry for the rear end views, but there's no other way to ask my question. Here are 2 of my Nigerian dwarf does, one has a larger white milky discharge than the other one.

Are either of these an indication of:
1. the beginning of the heat cylcle?
2. Then end of the heat cycle?
3. this doe was bred within the last 24-48 hours?

thanks

*These are 2 different does, please comment on if you think there is a difference in their stage of the heat cycle or if one has been bred or the other has not, etc...

*


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

anybody? There are so many knowledgeable people on here, someone has to has some ideaonder:


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Looks like end of heat. Were they exposed to a buck?


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## spidy1 (Jan 9, 2014)

I think it is the end of a heat cycle / maybe bred, but I'm not an expert.


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

nicolemackenzie said:


> Looks like end of heat. Were they exposed to a buck?


That's the big question. Today is Wednesday, the photos were taken yesterday, Tuesday evening. The first doe, "Bandera", was acting like she might possibly be in heat Saturday thru Monday. She didn't really want to get up on the milk stand to be milked which is unusual. The second doe, "Spirit", was showing sure signs of being in heat on Saturday, flagging and bleating which she doesn't normally vocalize very much otherwise, by Sunday the signs of being in heat had really subsided in Spirit compared to on Saturday.

The problem is, my buck "Moses" got into the doe pen on Monday. I wanted my other buck, "Elijah" to do all my breeding this year, but "Moses" was the one that got through the electric fence and into the doe pen on Monday, so both "Bandera" and "Spirit" were exposed to "Moses" for some time on Monday. When I noticed that Moses had gotten into the doe pen, he was not showing much interest in any of the does. Either none were close to being in heat, or he had already done all the chasing and perhaps they already stood for him and let him breed them??

Last evening, after I took these photos, I exposed the first doe, Bandera, to "Elijah", the buck I wanted to have do all my breeding this year. Bandera didn't want to let him breed her, but "Elijah" was extremely interested in doing so, and there was some intense chasing. Finally, the Elijah cornered her in their shelter/hut, and Bandera I think was bred then, but it was hard for me to tell for sure if she let him go all the way, or if he really got the job done or not. Either way, it didn't seem like Bandera wanted to be bred last evening, so it makes me wonder if she was already beyond the "standing heat" in her cycle, or if she was already bred by the other buck, Moses, on Monday.

This morning I put Elijah in with Bandera, and Elijah showed no interest in breeding or chasing her whatsoever. So she was either at the tail end of heat last night, and perhaps he bred her last night so there was not any scent of heat to him this morning.

Do any of you know anything about genetic testing to tell which buck sire her kids if she did get pregnant? Now I don't have any way of knowing which one got the job done. If she does not come into heat next month and she has kids in 5 months from now, I will know she was bred in the last day or two, but not sure which buck is the sire without genetic testing or something.

another question, if Bandera was bred successfully on Monday, would the bucks still have show such an intense interest in breeding her last evening? Because this morning, Elijah showed no interest whatsoever in breeding her, whereas last evening, it was intense.

Any thoughts? thanks!


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Bandi was probably no longer in standing heat but could have been bred by both for sure.

Spirit may have been bred by Moses at the end of her cycle.

Mark this date and who was exposed to who and recheck in 21 days. 

If there is no heat then they probably are pregnant. I think DNA testing will get expensive but needed if you plan on registering resulting offspring. You could also use lute in two weeks or 21 days unless they come into heat at that time. Then you can breed to the buck you want


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

nicolemackenzie said:


> Bandi was probably no longer in standing heat but could have been bred by both for sure.
> 
> Spirit may have been bred by Moses at the end of her cycle.
> 
> ...


thanks. So can you draw any conclusions just by the appearance of the milky discharge?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No. You can't.


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

Yeah sorry... No way to be sure. I'd bet they are bred.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

So they can be bred and settle at the very end/just after their heat? I have a doe who was in heat for two days and then the day after the buck got out and bred her... :scratch:


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## nicolemackenzie (Dec 27, 2014)

I believe so. I think with AI they aim for the end of heat.


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## Suzanne_Tyler (Jul 19, 2014)

Okay, thanks! I was sorta hoping to at least breed her a month after my other doe (turned out being a week apart) but oh well


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

If they were bred, they should have kids in early March. If that happens, I think I will do DNA testing to find out who the sire is. The local vet said it could be done for $80-$100, which would be worth knowing for sure who the sire is. If they come into heat in 21 days give or take, then I will be ready to act and have Elijah breed them. I moved the bucks so they shouldn't get into the doe pasture. They have been very respectful to the electric fence all year long, of course until the one buck got into the doe pasture the other day. The fence that was separating them was the poly/wire temporary electric fence, so they are much more likely to barge through that if their hormones get all charged up if they smell a doe in heat on the other side, which is what must have happened. Now where I moved them to, they have 12.5 gauge hi tensile electrified wire fencing between them and the doe pasture, so I'm sure they won't try going through that since it's much stiffer, tighter, and being solid wire instead of poly/thin wire blend like the temporary stuff (which they can sometimes come in contact with and not really get a shock due to the poly material in the strands, and it's much more flexible and easier to push through compared to tight stiff wire under tension).


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

I've got an update!! Bandera was bred 2 times today by Elijah! Please help me make sense out of this. So is it possible for them to have that milky discharge and not be in standing heat until 4 days later?

As I said in the first post, the first photo with the largest glob of secretion is from Bandera, the second photo with the smaller glob was from Spirit, both photos taken on Tuesday evening, 4 days ago. Today is Saturday. I noticed the bucks going crazy at the edge of the do pasture, and Bandera on the other side of the fence within a couple of feet of the bucks which were going crazy. Bandera was wagging her tail and showing lots of interest. So I went and got Bandera and took her to Elijah, and she immediately accepted his advances, and was bred within second of me bringing her to him. I let them hang out for about 5 to 10 minutes and he bred her a 2nd time during that time span. Both times Bandera hunched up so it's obvious that Elijah did his part. As I posted on Tuesday, when I put Bandera in with the bucks, there was a lot of crazy chasing but Bandera was scared to death and did not want anything to do with the bucks and their advances. It looked like Elijah possibly bred her then as he cornered her in their little hut shelter, but I couldn't tell if he got into her or not, and I didn't notice the hunch up of Bandera like you see in a successful breeding, like today. So is it possible that when they are not in standing heat as she was on Tuesday, that they could even be bred? It seems like the doe will not let them actually get into them if they are not in standing heat, as she was on Tuesday when she wanted nothing to do with the bucks. Today was totally opposite, she immediately stood for Elijah to breed her. 

My other thought is that Spirit nor Bandera were bred when Moses was in with them on Monday. When I went out to check them the first time I noticed he has gotten into their pen, he was not showing any interest in them and he was just letting the does feed and he was off to the side 20 feet or more away just sniffing around. Also, it appeared that Spirit was in full standing heat on Saturday, 7 days ago, so I'm hoping that by Monday when Moses got into their pen, that she was no longer in heat. I will find out in 15 days or so, if Spirit comes into heat then I will know she wasn't bred on Monday. 


If you have any thoughts, please share, thanks!


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## bornagain62511 (Mar 3, 2015)

bornagain62511 said:


> I've got an update!! Bandera was bred 2 times today by Elijah! Please help me make sense out of this. So is it possible for them to have that milky discharge and not be in standing heat until 4 days later?
> 
> As I said in the first post, the first photo with the largest glob of secretion is from Bandera, the second photo with the smaller glob was from Spirit, both photos taken on Tuesday evening, 4 days ago. Today is Saturday. I noticed the bucks going crazy at the edge of the do pasture, and Bandera on the other side of the fence within a couple of feet of the bucks which were going crazy. Bandera was wagging her tail and showing lots of interest. So I went and got Bandera and took her to Elijah, and she immediately accepted his advances, and was bred within second of me bringing her to him. I let them hang out for about 5 to 10 minutes and he bred her a 2nd time during that time span. Both times Bandera hunched up so it's obvious that Elijah did his part. As I posted on Tuesday, when I put Bandera in with the bucks, there was a lot of crazy chasing but Bandera was scared to death and did not want anything to do with the bucks and their advances. It looked like Elijah possibly bred her then as he cornered her in their little hut shelter, but I couldn't tell if he got into her or not, and I didn't notice the hunch up of Bandera like you see in a successful breeding, like today. So is it possible that when they are not in standing heat as she was on Tuesday, that they could even be bred? It seems like the doe will not let them actually get into them if they are not in standing heat, as she was on Tuesday when she wanted nothing to do with the bucks. Today was totally opposite, she immediately stood for Elijah to breed her.
> 
> ...


Just a few minutes after I posted the above, I found an answer to my main question!! At the end of this web page http://www.jasperfarmiowa.com/heatcycles.html

The quoted text below, especially the bold red text, explains exactly what I saw happen with Bandera!

_"The standing heat is when the doe is willing to stand and let the buck mount her - this is when she is ovulating and at the peak of her fertility for that heat cycle, for a live breeding (the best time for AI is towards the end of her standing heat). The doe will usually have a longer period of time being in heat before and after the actual standing heat. __
_
_ *Sometimes the doe will ovulate, be mounted by the buck in a standing heat, and then come into heat a few days later (often five). This is because that first ovulation didn't end up being successful - the follicle did not mature fully. Yet the process is in gear, so it only takes a few days for the doe to build up the hormones and come right back into heat. If you see the doe in a standing heat within a week or so of being bred, you know the first breeding did not take and you can likely count on this second one."*_


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