# New Mama Abandonment?!



## Serene (Jan 18, 2012)

Hello,
I am in a predicament. A nanny of ours has just kidded today, she is a first time mama, is really young and was breed by accident by a brother. The kid has stayed in the shelter and is constantly crying and whenever we go to her/him, it tried to suckle our fingers. Her mother (the mother's mom) also gave birth to 2 kids that are black and white like the smaller "shelter" kid, though the younger mother has blood on her backside. Could Meg (the older one) have had triplets and has abandoned one (the shelter kid is smaller, BTW)? Or is the young mother a little confused? We were not there at the kidding, the goats are not very "petable" and we are actually borrowing the goats from a neighbor to keep our back pasture down. He said that they sometimes abandon or "hide" them for 3 days, though I have typed almost anything I can think of in the search engine and the little kiddo is doing the goat version of screaming. HELP! :kidblack: :baby: :? :shrug:


----------



## echocreekranch (Oct 7, 2009)

Hi Serene

In my limited experience a doe will have some type of material (bloody membrane type stuff) hanging from her backside if she has recently kidded. Are you able to tell if the young doe has this? Does she seem to have a full bag of milk? It may not be huge if she is young and this is her first freshening. 

I also wanted to say that young kids can go downhill very quickly and it is critical that they get colostrum as soon as possible. I wouldn't leave it too long, I would probably be considering either tying the doe up (make sure she has milk first) and "teaching" her to nurse her kid (lots of info on this site if you do a search - I have always followed Toth boer goats advice for doing this), or milking colostrum out of her and syringe feeding the kid or using a packaged colostrum for goats.

Jen


----------



## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

I agree with jen, do not leave the baby too long. If you can, take it in. If not, try rubbing the scent of the mother you wish to adopt it on it; either her milk or some of the gunk from her rear. Keep the baby warm and also socializing it at this young age will work well for keeping it social for later in life. If your primary concern is the baby, don't feel bad taking it away.


----------



## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

When I had two does give birth in the same area they both claimed all the babies...they both would nurse all of them...hasn't happened again. The "shelter" baby is probably your younger does kid...as you said she has discharge. If she's making milk, you have to get it somehow, you may have to tie her up and you'll probably need help. Right now you have to be concerned about the kid...get some colostrum in her...quickly. Poor thing. You don't want her to get weak...that's a whole other "can of worms". Try to get her fed...even if you have to get it from the other doe. Then, put her back with her mother and see if they can "figure it out". If not, you will have a bottle baby, which may not be a bad thing if you are going to keep her. She'll be alot friendlier. You can still leave her with mom...if she's not mean to the baby. Keep the baby warm, take her temp if she looks cold. Sometimes they have trouble, at first, regulating their temp. I've had to take a kid in the house and warm it up on a heating pad to get the temp up...then take her back out...but watch very close...you may have to do it more then once. 

Good luck, hope she's ok. And welcome from PA! :wave:


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Get the baby some colostrum....

You need to have each momma and the babies in separate pens so they can bond with their own babies and not get confused on who is who's... if each have kidded... 


You say the younger Doe has blood on her...does she have anything hanging out of her ..such as afterbirth? 
Is she still in labor? under duress?
Does she look skinnier than she did before?
Or.. do you think... she may of rubbed against her momma and gotten the blood from her?
If she just had a baby...she will still be Open ...wash up and go in the vulva and feel if she is in fact open or closed.....if she is open... that is most likely hers or she is getting ready to kid herself..... 
What was her kidding date?

Do you have a breeder close or a vet ...that can help you figure this out ...before it is too late ...if in fact this little baby is the older Does or the younger Does?...

Put the extra kid up to the older Doe and see if she pushes it away or if she tries to mother it..... If she mothers it ...you know it is hers... :hug:


----------



## Serene (Jan 18, 2012)

She does have blood on her backside, and I believe she has taken the kid now, but she is not really letting her drink much and she has very little milk. Another kid has just been born by the younger one's mother (We had 4 "older" goats, we started out with 2 nannys and 2 kids each, both had a boy and a girl but the owner removed the boys because he did not want hat is happening now to happen... oh well). I am pretty sure that the kid is her's, but it is pretty skinny, runtish and doesn't walk well... Will the younger mother just have to get used to the kid suckling from her or is she not allowing her to drink for lack of milk? We can't do much in the way of bottle feeding because dad will say "just wait" or something like that... and he doesn't know much of anything about goats. The kid always acts hungry and still tries to suckle whenever we hold her, and tying up the mother is almost out of the question, they aren't like the petting zoo goats if you know what I mean, and Megamom (the older one with twins) and Coco (Meg's kid) won't even let us pet them and even Johanna Deer (the one with the newborn kid) and Buttercup (Jo's kid) hardly let us pet them. They all shy away when we come near, the adults are small, about up to your thigh (I'm 5.5 ish) and we have been trying to let them get used to us. Meg does not let Felis Anyos (happy birthday in spanish, I think I spelled it right, my sister's birthday is soon and Buttercup is the one sh named) suckle nor does Jo.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Glad she took the kid...does she have afterbirth hanging? if not... she may not be done.... you should see it hanging ...it will have little red ball looking things on it...

You may have to tie momma up and tie up her back leg.. if she isn't holding still for her baby....She may be sore and tight in the udder ...so... you will have to milk out just a little ..before putting her baby on her...so... she won't jump around as much...feed it to her baby.....her teats will have plugs in them ...you may have to lightly and gently scrape it from the orifice ...and milk her a squirt ...to break it free....
tie her ...until she knows what she is suppose to do.. eventually.. you may not have to tie her at all.....
by her baby nursing... it will help stimulate her milk letdown...Bumping her udder helps too.... Teach the baby where the teat is....tickle the back area on the tailhead...this will stimulate the baby to find the teat....if you have to hold the baby up ...to the teat ...cause it cannot get around well ..do so...also.. go out every 2 hours and make sure ...the baby gets fed and teach mom to be a mom....even through the night... 
Do you have a heat lamp or sweater.. you can put on the baby... until mom knows what to do?
Put her and her baby in a bonding pen... until she bonds with her baby... 3 days or so is good.... unless she is hard headed...

Give her some warm molasses water...be sure... she gets plenty of water...and feed her some grain and good Alfalfa ...will help build her milk....

If you get a hold of a vet...get oxytocin...and give it to her.. for milk letdown... but make sure she is done kidding.... Consult the vet...

You may have to supplement feed the baby... if her belly isn't full.... If you listen to your dad..the baby will starve....unless your other Doe has enough milk to help supplement the baby in need....

Give the kid a Bo-se shot...for the weak legs ...selenium deficiency...

I know you say... that tying up the mother is almost out of the question...but ....you will have to do it anyway...you have to take control....and teach her... talk to her in a gentle voice and work with her...


----------



## Serene (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok. I will try tying up the mother tomorrow. Today is not exactly possible and we don't have a bonding pen. Or alfalfa. Or mollasses. You all proably think I am horrible but we just have the goats to keep our pasture down. it is not like we are breeding them or anything, Thank you Toth. Will try my best for little "Happy Birthday" :birthday: . I am really worried about him/her though... :help: Please keep the help coming!!


----------



## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

Yeah I definitely agree with Pam. She knows her stuff.
Food is the best way to make a stand off goat friendly. I have a doe that I had to chase into a corner to do anything with her. I sat in the pen with food and she eventually warmed up for me. Now she comes to me. Pinning her up may seem mean but like Pam says, its for her best interest. Plus you'll need to get all of them used to handling for care.

And on a completely separate note, its spelt Feliz Anos, and theres a ~ over the n in anos. And technically that only means Happy Years. Feliz Cumpleanos is Happy Birthday. ~ over the N again. Just so you know :thumb:


----------



## myfainters (Oct 30, 2009)

If the baby does not get colostrum within the first 24 hours it will not survive...so you need to make sure it has a mom and that a mom is letting it nurse. A mother will not produce enough milk to sustain her kids if it is not fed properly.... so if they don't have enough milk You may need to supplement the moms until they wean their kids (8 weeks) I would buy a bag of alfalfa pellets or some good hay.


----------



## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

You have gotten great advice. I hope you are able to help. I know it can be hard when you are not prepared but it sounds like you have a good heart and want to help. 
Best of luck to you and the goats.


----------



## Serene (Jan 18, 2012)

We have some hay, and I tried tying her up but she is verry difficult to milk (I am doing it right) and it is almost like a thick paste, pudding almost. I tried getting Jo to nurse her but it didn't work, and I even tried milking Jo too, because she has only 1 kid. Buttercup's udder is almost nonexistent, and when I tried to get the kid to suckle her Feliz Cumpleanos (thanks Davy Hollow) coulden't find the teats though I practically shoved her face in them (not litterally) I am thinking of bringing up the subject of bottle feeding with my dad, but does anyone have any idea why her milk is so thick? Did I just need to milk her more or is it because she hasn't drank water? Her udder is like she never kidded, and I am starting to worry. It is day 2 today (1-19-12) :help:


----------



## Serene (Jan 18, 2012)

The kid still tries to suckle us too.


----------



## Serene (Jan 18, 2012)

I mean our fingers, when we pick he up and hold her.


----------



## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

The colostrum is usually pretty thick. I had a doe that had really thick colotrum, it was like warm molasses. If she is trying to suck on you it would be best to bottle feed, especially if she isn't trying any of the does. Kids can be frustrating, most of the time they won't suck if you are pushing on them or trying to open their mouth. It can make things difficult when the doe isn't being cooperative.

If the kid is 2 days old and still alive, not weak and able to stand she must be getting some milk from someone. But if she's sucking your fingers, that would indicate she isn't getting enough. I think it would be best to bottle feed at this point. You can try to get more milk from one of the does and feed it to her to make sure the kid has gotten some colostrum.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Ok. I will try tying up the mother tomorrow. Today is not exactly possible and we don't have a bonding pen. Or alfalfa. Or mollasses. You all proably think I am horrible but we just have the goats to keep our pasture down. it is not like we are breeding them or anything, Thank you Toth. Will try my best for little "Happy Birthday" :birthday: . I am really worried about him/her though... :help: Please keep the help coming!!


You are very welcome.. :thumb:

If you can get 5 or 6 wood pallets... you can make a bonding pen..... nail them together and keep one...that is tied together ... so you can open it... to get in... There are places that give them away....CL may have some..... call around to feed stores.....
If you already have a barn or shelter ...you don't need as many pallets to make a pen...... cause you can use the wall..for your side walls ....instead of all pallets..... 
Or if you want to.... buy a hog panel...I believe it has smaller holes.. that are small enough ...so the baby doesn't go through.... Just wire it... to the wall inside a barn or shelter....

No I don't think you are horrible....just a beginner...and I give you a lot of credit...because....you are here asking questions and I respect that.... 
Wanting to learn is a huge effort.... :hug:


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Yeah I definitely agree with Pam. She knows her stuff.


 Thank you DavyHollow.. :thumb: :hug:



> We have some hay, and I tried tying her up but she is verry difficult to milk (I am doing it right) and it is almost like a thick paste, pudding almost. I tried getting Jo to nurse her but it didn't work, and I even tried milking Jo too, because she has only 1 kid. Buttercup's udder is almost nonexistent, and when I tried to get the kid to suckle her Feliz Cumpleanos (thanks Davy Hollow) coulden't find the teats though I practically shoved her face in them (not litterally) I am thinking of bringing up the subject of bottle feeding with my dad, but does anyone have any idea why her milk is so thick? Did I just need to milk her more or is it because she hasn't drank water? Her udder is like she never kidded, and I am starting to worry. It is day 2 today (1-19-12) :help:


 Yes.. the colostrum can be very very thick....and will get better as time goes on....as you milk her.... get a small syringe 6 cc or 12cc( without needle) and milk some into it...slowly feed it to the baby..... be sure... to get the syringe set so... it is past that certain point as you plunge it.. that you don't plunge all of it... and give a sudden big burst to the baby......that would be bad....give the kid either (2) of the 12cc or 4 of the 6cc syringe...that will insure.. she has gotten enough colostrum....feed it very slowly though and with little breaks in between... ... treat that colostrum like it is gold....don't waste a drop and feed it to the baby..... 
If you want to feed the kid that way... until you get a bottle you can...but it takes a long time this way.......feel the babies tummy and make sure it is full but not tight..... Get colostrum into the baby right away....it can't wait til tomorrow... 
If a baby decides that it is stubborn.. I check the suck reflex...by putting a little colostrum on my index finger and putting it into the kids mouth....If the baby suckles... I then open the kids mouth and squirt a little in there from mom's teat.....as you said you were doing....then ...I will release the kid and tickle the tail head area....to stimulate the kid to go seak the teat.... if the baby doesn't find it ...I repeat this....and I may even hold the babies head onto the teat and squeeze just a little at a time ..very gently... for a few times ...sometimes the baby will start sucking big time... You can use your index finger...in the syringe feeding as well...the kid sucks on your finger and you feed the colostrum at the back corner of the mouth really slowly....you finger will act as a teat .... Keep trying and the kid will eventually get it...some don't like to be forced so ...a little squirt in the mouth ...as I mentioned and a little direction...of which way to go.... along with a tickle on the tail head area....should get the baby going.... :hug:


----------



## Serene (Jan 18, 2012)

Feliz Cumpleanos died last night... I saw her in the pen proably right before she went. Dad did as I knew he would... I should have done something sooner :doh: ! :sigh: Now poor buttercup is constantly looking for her... :tears: RIP Fel.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so sorry ...  it isn't your fault.... hopefully your dad will feel differently next time ....it is very sad...he wouldn't listen..babies can't wait it out like that... :hug:


----------



## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

I am so very sorry. It is always hard.


----------

