# Friends-babies passed sick doe! Warning: GRAPHIC PIC



## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

My friend has been gone off and on this week with work. She found this doe down in one of their shelters about 1 hour ago. She had two babies (you can see how large they were in the picture below) but they both passed away. My friend does not know why the babies passed away except for if they were premature some (doe does not have a bag) but then they are so large. Sorry about the picture of the babies-they are not very "easy on the eyes" but I wanted to give you an idea of size.

The doe has alot of blood on her hind end. She keeps trying to push. My friend went up inside and got about 1 foot of afterbirth out. She bumped her and she says her tummy is soft-no more babies inside. But you can see in the picture how the doe keeps hunching her back and trying to push.

My friend said that when she got the doe back to the barn she did eat and drink. The veterinarian was phoned and they instructed to give 3ccc's of penicillan (3000units) every 12 hours. My friend did that; gave her 3/4 of a cc of banamine (she estimates the doe to weigh 50 to 70lbs) and vit. b and vitamins via drench.

She is scared-thinking the doe will die. Any other suggestions? This doe may have been laying with her babies for a few days before she was found  . I will be checking this post and texting back and forth with my friend so I can relay info or ask questions.


----------



## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

Well sorry about the babies but I don't think I would have gone in and tried to pull the afterbirth like that. That is not a good idea. I understand checking for more kids but you should never pull on the after birth. Those do look like big kids for a doe her size. I really don't know what to say except I am wishing the best to her and the doe.


----------



## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

so by her pulling the afterbirth could the doe be bleeding inside? SHOULD she call the vet back and take her in? Could they save her?

I don't know any different, so I am asking this for future knowledge for myself too. So if they don't pass the afterbirth what do you do? I know that directly after you would give oxytocin but what do you do after the closure of the cervix?


----------



## kccjer (Jan 27, 2012)

Hasn't there been a post before about some kind of bolus you can use to dissolve the afterbirth if they don't pass it? No, you should never try to pull the afterbirth. Don't know that she would have caused bleeding inside. The problem is if you leave some in and it causes an infection (I think) Does the blood on the doe look bright red or is it black? Black would indicate old blood coming out not fresh bleeding....usually. Smell? Bad smell means infection...but if it hasn't been long enough it won't smell.


----------



## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

she says the smell is bad; she does not know if it is coming from the doe herself or because she was with the babies whom were decomposing  

The blood is red and she keeps passing teaspoon amounts of it when she squats and pushes.


----------



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

O wow.. that doe looks rather young. Dont know about all this.. but I certainly would be wearing gloves when going into an animal especially that I wasnt sure of it's previous health issues. It is hard to know what caused this situation.. The people helping probably did where gloves .. I sure would.


----------



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

I wonder if this doe had been butted hard.. maybe the bag ruptured inside of her or something caused that to happen. Now that is a wild guess but if they had no bag with them.. I wonder where it was.. maybe she cleaned it off of them when they came out?


----------



## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

You are right she is a younger doe. I can't remember if my friend said this was her 1st or second time to kid? She did mention it though. I know she keeps gloves and routinely wears them-but with this being such an emotional "discovery" for her I don't know what she did. She did not say but my guess would be that she did because she kept commenting on the smell  so I bet she thought to wear the gloves. 

I have heard that flushing the uterus might save the goat. Is this something only a vet should do or could my friend do it--if so, when? Sooner than later?


----------



## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

oh when I posted "no bag" I meant my friend told me that she thought the kids were early because she had not yet developed a milk bag. 

I don't know if she saw any remnants of the bag they would have been born it. She did not mention it.


----------



## packhillboers (Feb 2, 2011)

Burns Branch Boers said:


> oh when I posted "no bag" I meant my friend told me that she thought the kids were early because she had not yet developed a milk bag.
> 
> I don't know if she saw any remnants of the bag they would have been born it. She did not mention it.


ha ha.. you said that right. I realize now.. I was thinking of the birth sack.. and that was my fault for thinking that. So hard to know what happened. Hope she recovers ok.


----------



## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

lol, thanks and no problem--it was confusing the way I explained it. :thumb:


----------



## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

If you know any more experienced breeders nearby, now would be definitely the time to contact them. I think you may have some time, but the sooner you start fixing the problem the better her chances of survival. I had a doe that ended up with a C section and would walk around with her back curled like that, like she was endlessly pushing. I think based upon my girl, something's got to be ripped inside. My doe ended up needing to be put down 5 months later for having never gotten better (she ended up collapsing too weak to hold her head up).

But at the same time, perhaps she is just in shock from the abortion. I really don't know. Is she eating? Drinking? Does she show interest in it? Maybe flushing her system with liquids and molasses might get her back to regular, something for energy too, like raisins. If she is pushing, she's gotta feel like something is off inside. Check her temperature too.


----------



## RPC (Nov 6, 2009)

I don't think pulling the afterbirth would cause an actual tear to the uterus but the afterbirth needs to be intact so it has the weight to all come out at once. The afterbirth "snaps" to the wall so as she pushed and the weight pulls from the outside the snaps release slowly. Does that make any sense? I would almost bet the doe either had an infection and that killed the kids and they were born dead or she was hit which killed the kids, which then caused her an infection. I would get her on strong anti-bionics immediately, I am a little worried about the pushing and bleeding also. I wonder if the kids were not to big and she should not be pushing this hard if it has been days since she delivered. I would take her to the vet if it were me. Something is not right I think.


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2012)

Hmmm, yes, "pulling" afterbirth can cause tears ,prolapses and all kinds of bad things. If she was bleeding inside she would ne dead in minutes tho.
A doe that had a slight cervical tear from delivery will feel pressure and the urge to push. Go light on on banamine for now, tho it helps with pain you dont want it to relax her uterine muscles and stall its shrinking and cleaning .
If there is a bad smell to the discharge do a flush (7cc la200 mixed with 25-30 sterile water) with a weak kid tube into her uterus . Do this once a day until her cervix is closed . Continue with the penn for.at least 5 days and watch her for fever and worsened symptoms .
Looks like maybe she was hit, had a dead rotting kid or a calcium or mineral deficiency . What is her temp now ?


----------



## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

Thanks all! I passed all the info along to my friend. She is a pretty experienced breeder but this sit. had her stumped and I don't know--lol! The only goat I have had kid ended up w/a c-section. So when she called me all I knew was the proper medicines to give and amounts. The other physical logistics I told her I would have to check here and pass along the info. So I really appreciate everyone's input. 

She did text me this morning and said that the doe looked better. That she was not "hunched" up anymore and was eating. So these are good signs. She was going to call her vet and ask him about the uterine bolus and the flushing of the uterus-as I passed that advice on to her from all of you. So hopefully the veterinarian will follow up with her care today and maybe this doe will make it. 

Yea-the afterbirth part. That one is def. a hard one. I guess what my friend removed was there for quite a while-so who knows--is it better to get it out or leave the rotting tissue? I guess if it were me; and I had to make a call I would have given antibiotics, gotten a good betadine flush going and then followed up w/a bolus. Would that have been appropriate? I too am curious about how to handle such a sit. incase it ever happened to me.


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I agree.. not a good idea.. pulling out the afterbirth... hopefully that didn't hurt her...  

Get a temp on her first......

This Doe... may likely have an infection in her uterus...she needs antibiotics started right away..... that is the awful smell most likely being smelt....if the kids bodies were taken away and she still smells that....plus if the kids smelt like that and were just born... then... she has a bad infection...

Pushing and hunching... may be trying to get out the remainder of the afterbirth or possibly has another kid in there....

I would take her to the vet ASAP...the vet will have to flush her out...I would also mention ... the afterbirth was pulled out...

She is awfully small in weight... if she only weighs 50 to 60 lbs and I personally wouldn't of bred a boer Doe that small....


----------



## ptgoats45 (Nov 28, 2011)

I agree with Pam.

Those kids are definitely premies, look at the shape of their heads. Their bodies also look like they were very soft, also doesn't look like they had any hair. The legs are very tiny in relation to the body and not fully formed yet. I had a doe one time have two live kids and one that looked like these. I had her on a round of antibiotics but was not able to flush her. She ended up with a uterine infection and even with tons of super strong antibiotics she did not make it. We had a horse abort one time and the fetus was identical to what that kid looks like, only larger.

Because the kids are premies, I would suspect there may be another premature kid inside, she may not have been able to feel it very well since it wouldn't have been hard like a full term kid.


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm so sorry your friend is going through this, I hope her doe will be okay!
I don't have any advice, wish I did! But I agree, first thing that came to mind was that if the doe is that small, she shouldn't have been bred. I'd never breed a boer less than 80lbs. We didn't breed our youngest doe until she was 100lbs.

Also, I know people get busy, but IMO animals always need to be checked on, especially pregnant animals. I can't tell other people what to do, but again IMO, it sounds like she needs to try and check on them at least once a day, or ask someone to help her. You just never know what can happen. First, your animal can suffer. Second, finding the problem sooner can prevent severe illness, hefty vet bills, and possible loss of that animal. Trust me we had our own scare and I will never ever leave our animals unattended ever again! We were gone all day Christmas, came home the next day around 2pm to find one of our does running a fever, scours, and feeling horrible. She was fine afterwards, but we kept thinking...OMG what if we hadn't come home until the late evening? Sure she'd have been fine, but she was suffering and needed meds  Most days they are fine, but it's always when you least expect a problem that one occurs 

Not saying your friend isn't a good owner, nothing like that, I know life gets really busy. I really really hope her doe is okay and will be back to herself very soon. 

BTW, we had a doe that was due Christmas 2010, and she aborted right after Thanksgiving. One minute she was fine, hardly had a bag, and the next minute she was running to the barn frantically and delivered a stillborn single buck kid - he was HUGE, but no hair, pencil thin legs, etc. Broke our hearts! Mama mourned for a few days, then she was just fine, rebred on next heat cycle and kidded twins no problems. We're positive she got butted since she was bottom of the pecking order. Any idea where your friends doe stands in the pecking order? We had to watch this doe very close to make sure the others didn't pick on her too badly.

Whew I wrote a book LOL


----------



## Burns Branch Boers (Apr 11, 2011)

LOL I write books too! ha ha!!

Yes, I agree with everyone on all accounts. I would want my doe flushed if I were her. I also think that I would do a stronger round of anti-biotics and for longer. 

In this situation my friend does check on them regularly (but don't get me wrong at all--I take NO offense to what you were saying; I wholeheartedly agree)--just there are many goats in the pen this one was in. She has a very large herd and she has a huge farm w/woods that are even fenced in. She got a feeling that one was missing and went looking for her and found her in a shelter in the back part of the "pen" if you want to call it that. I have been in that pen myself many times and even I asked her--there is a shelter in there? I have never seen it because apparently it is towards the back and of course this pen is huge. 

That is surely a downside to having a large herd. Of course w/such a large herd it is not long...in between...illnesses and injuries. I honestly don't know how she does it-handling one thing after another (plus she works FT) would put me in the crazy house! LOL She enjoys working with them though. Me....I think a herd of about 10 does and 1 or 2 bucks max is more my style. I like to know everyone is accounted for and can stay healthy. 

Even though this doe was doing well today my friend is leaving in the morning on a trip  I asked if the caretaker that was maintaining the herd (whom is a farmhand) was going to give this doe her medicine (i.e. penicillan) and she said that she thought the doe would be fine and was going to put her back out  I pray the doe holds her own--but I have my doubts. The rule of 5 days if you start penicillan is def. not going to get done. I would go over there myself but no way I can w/my work schedule and she is about 20min from me. I wish I could. 

I also agree on the size of the goat. Not sure what size she was to begin with but my friend was saying she had lost alot of weight. I do think she was of the appropriate age because I know all the babies from last year are in a separate area. 

Everyone--hold on to your hats because she is giving the farmhand MY phone number for any emergencies :shrug: I don't think I have NEAR enough experience for that! I said "emergencies?....well what am I gonna do???" LOL!! I guess I will be posting here :laugh:


----------



## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Praying the doe will be okay. If she's already spent $$ and time to try and make this doe right, she should make sure she gets the rest of her meds and has someone watching her. Otherwise if she goes down hill, she may not be able to be brought back, and $$, time and worry all wasted. Sure wish she'd reconsider having the farm hand do it. Seriously, how hard is it to give penicillin? It's not hard at all, and shown once, the hand would know how to do it.

You know...you said the doe has been losing a lot of weight. I wonder if there is something wrong with her and that is what caused her to abort? Sounds like there is an underlying issue. I'm no pro, but that would be a huge red flag waving "SOMETHING AMISS!" Maybe she did have a Uterine infection and that's what your friend was smelling. I'd be highly concerned, what if something is wrong and it's contagious? 

I totally understand big herds. I've worked on a big horse farm before, and my husband has been working with horses for several years now. I think it was a total shock to him when he started at his current job, they only have like 30 horses. He's used to big farms 150+. 

10 does and 1-2 bucks sound good to me too!


----------



## DavyHollow (Jul 14, 2011)

Oi, I have been following this thread and I had a dream last night that Lissa miscarried randomly and her baby was weird shaped and yellow, and kind of gooey like jello  

Talk about your work of nightmares. I only have 3 goats so loosing even a baby is a huge deal. But I agree with what everyone else has been saying. Maybe its a combination of things: she got butted really hard, which killed the kids, which caused them to rot, which caused an infection, which caused the abort...... But Ocham's razor says the simplest answer is usually the right one . . .


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug: ray:


----------

