# CL POSITIVE.



## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

I've never noticed this before but I grabbed Cissy to stop her from ramming April and I felt a lump on her neck! Sure enough, there is a sizeable lump (about the size of a quarter). I don't remember it being there before and since I hook them up to a leash everyday I certainly would have noticed a freaking lump. I checked Mione's neck and she has nothing. It is off center about halfway down her neck. Can things ever go right around here, so now I'm all worried its CL. Its covered in hair and its not especially soft. Mum thought maybe a benign tumour? I suppose thats entirely possible? Or a horsefly bite?

Someone help me out here, any other ideas aside from CL? Of course they weren't bought tested so naturally I have to expect the unexpected but I did have them tested for CAE and both came back negative. Worst of all I'm leaving tonight for Toronto and now not only am I leaving Cissy the evil in with poor little April the newbie, but now Cissy has a freaking lump. The lump is not near her jaw line but further down on her neck.

FYI, No one has had shots recently

:/

*Oh and my mum swears the lump felt warmer than the rest of Cissy's body. I don't have the "magic hands" and I can never feel the difference between temperature but I trust her. *

Here is a shot of the lump, I had to outline it because she is white and it is white. I don't remember this lump being there this morning and I handle her in that area every single day.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

She didn't get a shot or get blood draw there did she? That would be totally normal. Otherwise it could be a lot of other things than CL...possibly a bite from something...she could have fallen on something and caused it to bruise, etc. Just watch it...if it starts to lose fur and I think a lot of those CL "lumps" will puss? if I remember correctly. If it gets quite a bit bigger you can stick a needle in and see what's in it. I wouldn't get to worried yet. Just keep an eye on her.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

She had blood drawn in that area about 6 months ago. Vaccines are done on her back. The thing that gets me is that I don't remember it being there this morning even, and this phot was taken at about 5pm.

I'm hoping its just a sting (Dragonfly, Horsefly, Bee sting) OR a "normal" infection of some sort. My mum got a splinter in her finger about a month ago and it came up in an abscess with pus. It was a bad infection but just an infection. Cissy and her Sidekick Mione often rub down a fence with PT posts in it which they do every morning and several times throughout the day.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

fly bite, bee sting, injection lump, etc those are all other reasons for a lump like that.

CL lumps dont just suddenly appear and grow large enough to see - But I would still keep an eye on it and if it comes to a head take the gunk to be tested for CL thats the best option.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

Thanks Stacey, We are having the vet come out. We're a little on the broke side right now but since I am having the vet out later in the month to float my ponies teeth this bill can go on our account to be payed after the pony's appointment.

ANYWAY, My mum swears there is a point kinda like a pimple but I didn't feel anything personally and I was definitely prodding and poking it for a good while.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

its so frustrating that you cant do it yourself since you are in Canada but at least your vet will help you out there. Im sure its just fine, but the peace of mind will be good for you


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

It sucks but there is nothing I can do about it. The good thing is our practice ended up with a vet this year that has a special interest in goats (she is the one that took blood from both Cissy and Mione for their CAE tests).

What is worse is that I don't have isolation housing for her so if she is positive we'll have to figure something out (euthanization or rehoming to a place that doesn't care about CL) and have both the new girl (April) and Mione tested for CL.

Its not bad enough already that they (Cissy and Mione) have April cornered ontop of the hay feeder. Sigh.










And I'm not even home. I've had to go to Toronto (2 hours away) for business for my school stuff, my mum is home and she has to meet/greet the vet tomorrow with a timid/skittish April and deal with Cissy and Mione too.


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## elchivito (Apr 18, 2010)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

Everyone has become so paranoid about CL and CAE that anytime a goat limps they're suspected of being CAE positive and the slightest lump is immediately fretted over as if it were CL. That lump is way too big to have gone unnoticed by any but the most unobservant handler, and you certainly don't sound like that kind of neglectful goat keeper. I'll bet it's not CL. As said before, it's a sting, a bruise, some other kind of abscess. Watch it and if the hair starts falling out, get it checked.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

I know! Its like the plague. Its the same with horses, we have a pony that doesn't drink a lot but drinks a lot in one sitting in the winter months and every single winter I get all fretted up over freaking colic and she never colics :/

Mum is calling the vet out, I might get her to wait a day or two to keep an eye on it and call if it gets bigger.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

We have the vet coming out wednesday at 1:30pm, so we'll see what happens. that gives us a chance to keep an eye on the lump for a couple days as well.


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## redneck_acres (Oct 18, 2007)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

From what i've read CL is acctually more of a pain in the neck to deal with than CAE. Atleast CAE is manageable. But not all bumps are CL, the goat may have a bug bite, or an injury, or the lump is a result from an injection-except in your case that one seems to be out.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

I'm very much so hoping its not CL and its just a bug bite or an infection of a different kind. Both Cissy and Mione have tested negative for CAE thank heavens but I didn't have them tested for CL. Testing is... an interesting journey here and I wasn't sure if they would/could even test for CL.

We cannot keep her if she is CL positive as we just don't have the space to keep her isolation and it would not be fair on her either being away from her friends.

I know it is only like 80% effective but if she is negative she is getting a Case-bac vaccine, both her and Mione will be. April has already had one from her breeder.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

Does she rub herself up against wooden posts or such? To me it looks like she may have picked up a splinter or something and that's a common rubbing area (at least for mine). We had a CL scare (was negative) and my doe STILL has an acorn size lump in the same spot several months later. No smaller, no bigger, just there. I wouldn't really get too upset about it, especially since it isn't in a "common" location for CL.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

Yes she does. At least once a day she rubs (her and Mione do this) they run/rub down the goat pen fence which consists of about 15 PT 4x4 posts. My mum now swears that it has gotten bigger, not a lot..barely noticeable... and has... seperated? I guess and is kind of floating under the skin. Thats what she said to me earlier but I think she's second guessing herself because she's not really sure. We're trying to get the vet out earlier than Wednesday. Apparently our vet does not understand the gravity of the possibility of CL, because I'd rather not have my soil infected with it and Wednesday is her "first available appointment." great. So if it IS CL and it bursts before then? Right...

On the other hand, Mum says it does not appear to be itchy, it still has all the hair on it, ect.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

This is how she described it this evening..

"more round, like a large marble and kind of separated from the body.. like floating under the skin i guess"

that kind of sounds like a foreign object stuck under the skin creating an infection, but i won't know anything until probably wednesday if she can't get the vet to haul butt out to the farm tomorrow and i'm not even close to home and neither parent will LET me go home.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

From what I read, if she can take a needle attached to a syringe and express some fluid out of the lump it's not CL. If she can't, it still may be. That's probably what I would try first (and did try before taking our girl to the vet for a CL test). I couldn't get any fluid out, but it was still negative. But if you can get some fluid out you are ahead of the game! :wink:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

CL wont just grow that quickly over night so relax let the vet do it, she will be there tomorrow which is not bad. It doesnt sound like it will be bursting on its own anytime soon.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

Vet came

She says she doesn't believe it is CL (and infact she said ITS NOT CL, DON'T WORRY) but she said its a good thing we called her BECAUSE it IS an infection (likely a splinter from the fence Cissy enjoys rubbing herself on) and it is very infected but the kicker is that it is right over the jugular and there was a risk of Septecemia. She drained it, gave Cissy a shot of antibiotics and blukoted it.

She said it is not a common place in her experience for CL abscesses to show up. I don't believe mum had the pus tested because of the cost ($40 alone for the test, that doesn't include vet fees and shipping, ect.) however I will have the blood test done when I have some money. Just for my own sanity.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck!*

I knew it wasn't CL... not in the proper location for it.....Glad she was seen.. by your vet....and now is on the road to recovery.... :thumb: :leap:


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: Vet came out!*

Glad you caught it in time before your little girl got septic! :applaud:


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: Vet came out!*

I think I'm paranoid since I've only been back for one day but it seems Cissy is a bit lack luster. Mum said the vet said she would be a little lack luster for a few days as she was given a strong dose of antibiotics and the heat may make it a bit worse. She's eating and drinking and pooping/peeing.

Has anyone experienced this with antibiotics? I'm not super concerned as she is still eating and such. Maybe I'm just seeing a change in the herd dynamic as they seem to have accepted April is always going to be there and are *okay* with her as long as they can ram her into a wall at least once a day.

ETA: Okay I'm just a little paranoid thats all. I went in to show mum how lack luster Cissy was and she up eating hay and evaded me at all costs when I tried to catch her to check her eyelids LOL. She needs deworming, but tis all good. I'll pick up safeguard tomorrow and go from there.


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## GotmygoatMTJ (Apr 25, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: Vet came out!*

Can you find a stronger wormer? Like Ivermectin?


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: Vet came out!*

Well... Yeah, I have Ivermectin but I've been told countless times to pre-worm with Safeguard by other goat people. I can just dose her with the Ivermec if it won't kill her lol.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: Vet came out!*

I must have missed the update...that is great news it's not CL!!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: Vet came out!*

Congrats! And I hope she is feeling even better now! We use safeguard on our goats, and have had no issues


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: Vet came out!*

Safeguard pretty much only gets rids of some worms, that is if it's still effective in your area...Ivermectins and Praziquantels are the choice of action around here.


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: Vet came out!*

What's your praziquantel dose Liz? (I write down all your dosing) Guru Liz. LOL


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: Vet came out!*

What I've been using is the horse paste..Equimax, it's Ivermectin and Praziquantel combined. I do the doses the same as if it were the straight Ivermectin...triple the goats weight and dose accordingly.


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## MiGoat (Apr 21, 2010)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: Vet came out!*

Thank you.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

Well an update on Cissy brings bad news. Sunday I went in to trim her feet before throwing her out for the day with Mione and discovered an enormous cyst just under her jaw line by her ear. First thought was CL, once again, call the vet, vet comes out, vet lances, vet discovers funny pus, vet errs on the side of caution and tells us to quarentine her until it has stopped draining and then put her back in.

Funny pus you ask? It was clear like dog drool and not terribly thick but not runny. Like dog drool, no odour.

It had started to lose the hair on it, and it was huge.. like maybe half an apple if you cut one in half.

So it finished draining and its nicely scabbed over now. She's getting 4cc's of Penicillin once a day for 6 days and was thrown out with Mione in the run today since the cyst is healing. Then I noticed yet ANOTHER cyst forming, this time around the size of the very first one we had and just above it by maybe 2 or 3 inches. What is WITH all of these cysts?!

The vet took a sample of the one Sunday, and we'll get results back in 1-5 weeks!! O well, at least we'll know. She said not to get our hopes up but she's been getting calls lately of cases where cysts have formed, owner thinks CL, sample is sent off, sample comes back negative for CL.

This new cyst, its small still and still has hair so I'm going to leave her in with Mione and keep checking on it. I cannot afford to have the vet out to lance her again, this last bill was something like $450! I'm not happy about it but I'd like to lance this one myself, seems pretty straight forward and I have all the supplies.

As a result we're finding new homes for Cissy and Mione and April has already gone to a nice and experienced goat family. They were supposed to take Cissy and Mione but I'm not sure they will now, though there is another woman interested who knows about Cissy maybe having CL. We're going to get out of the goats for a little bit and start anew with tested and registered goats. Its going to take some time to find them, and some money but we absolutely cannot keep pouring money into Cissy like this. It saddens me but I can't keep doing this. We're trying to find her a nice pet home where she can have a great life and play and headbutt and be enjoyed.

On the bright side, I trimmed her feet today and discovered that Hoof Rot Shears are the best thing known to man for trimming feet


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## glenolam (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

Hey Lup - I know it's hard to believe, but you are doing the right thing! :hugs:


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

Not to "jump to conclusion" - but I would definately treat as if CL - until getting the results back

It is a HUGE misconception that CL is always the 'dry cheesy' type insides - this is NOT TRUE!!!!!!! The cysts start out small and grow - when they are "growing" the insides are a white "snotty" completely liquid inside. Looks like a clear fluid with cloudiness inside. Then as it "dries" is when the prudulent matter starts to dry out, the hair starts to fall off, the cyst becomes very hard and eventually ruptures.

Then MAIN thing is that CL has NO SMELL! So to tap and see a liquid that is not correct to say "no it is NOT CL" as it really can be - and any vet that has worked with CL before knows this.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

Okay because I'm getting all kinds of mixed stories here from the internet and other goat owners saying yes CL has a smell, no it doesn't. Blah Blah Blah.

At this point it probably is CL, and at this point Mione probably has it as well. She's not draining anymore and now there is another cyst lower on her neck above the first cyst =/ We're kinda doomed at this point anyhow since she's also coughing. This all started in the last 30 days. Under 30 days. We cannot at all keep her, its not possible. If the prelim comes back as CL, she's being euthanized. They may both end up being euthanized. Its not fair, and its horrible but what can I do? We can't house them! And we won't be getting back into goats any time soon.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

I am sorry you are going through this....please wait for the results... before you make any final decisions..... :hug:


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

Our results can take up to 5 weeks =/ The vet is hoping for some Prelim results later this week but she's getting worse quickly. Sunday it was one cough and a huge cyst, today its a cough, drained huge cyst, and new cyst forming.

We've given up on seperating her from Mione. Whats the point now? They came from the same place, Mione has lived with her all her life and has been coughed all over so they probably both have it.

In the meantime we've put up ads free to a good home for both of them. The decision is not rash, we CANNOT keep them.


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

Lupin,

can you drive blood results across the border for mailing inside the US to another institution? I am not sure how close you are to the border..... That would be an option to get quicker results..... or contact WADDL - they might even take international samples - I am not sure.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

No we cannot as far as I know. I'm close to the border (Watertown, NY) but I do not have a passport at this time (actually filling out the paperwork right now!).

I don't think WADDL will take it either, and anyway we need a vet to take blood... can't purchase supplies in stores for taking blood here. I've just emailed them but likely the answer will be no due to biological concerns (disease entering the US from Canada).


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*



> We've given up on seperating her from Mione. Whats the point now? They came from the same place, Mione has lived with her all her life and has been coughed all over so they probably both have it.
> 
> In the meantime we've put up ads free to a good home for both of them. The decision is not rash, we CANNOT keep them.


 If it is CL.... it is only contagious... if the wound is opened and draining.....
If it hasn't opened... or is just from rubbing on a wood barn ect.. getting slivers.....and now they are festering..it is not contagious.............in the meantime.... it is wise to separate them.....just in case....if it happened to the one .... doesn't mean... it will happen to the other.......don't give up yet...  :hug:


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

I *can't* seperate them though! Well I can but I haven't got an area really to put Cissy in longterm. They're together right now. The best I can do is a 5x10ft dog run that my dog has to live in during the day with a stall matt floor. And then Mione would have to be locked in the goat shed all day long all the time.

I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to give up and this be the end of it. Its been a year of awful things, I already had to put down a horse this spring. I can't even imagine how anyone could keep goats here when we have absolutely no access to medications without a vet, tests without a vet, ect.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*



> I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to give up and this be the end of it. Its been a year of awful things, I already had to put down a horse this spring. I can't even imagine how anyone could keep goats here when we have absolutely no access to medications without a vet, tests without a vet, ect.


 I do feel your pain...  it is never easy.... I am sorry... you had to put down your horse... that is so sad...  
Do you have a feed store where you live? If so, they would carry alot of vet supplies....
there are a few meds that you must get through a vets prescription.....but it isn't all the time... not sure on the testing part though..... if you decide to stay in goats.... maybe look up a breeder near you and ask them ...where they do their testing and get vet supplies.... :hug:


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*



toth boer goats said:


> > I don't know what to do anymore. I just want to give up and this be the end of it. Its been a year of awful things, I already had to put down a horse this spring. I can't even imagine how anyone could keep goats here when we have absolutely no access to medications without a vet, tests without a vet, ect.
> 
> 
> I do feel your pain...  it is never easy.... I am sorry... you had to put down your horse... that is so sad...
> ...


Feedstores and TSC's and Co-ops can only carry things like PenG and CD/T. Seriously. Breeders... they don't do any testing here because of the cost of it. Most get their supplies from the vet =/ because for the most part that is all you can really do.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*



> Feedstores and TSC's and Co-ops can only carry things like PenG and CD/T. Seriously. Breeders... they don't do any testing here because of the cost of it. Most get their supplies from the vet =/ because for the most part that is all you can really do.


 I am sorry..... I could not help....


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

The good news is that I've found out WADDL will take submissions from Canadian's  Its not super helpful at this time because I'd have to order VacuTubes from Jeffers, then wait for those, and then take samples, then send, blah blah blah and it would end up being the same amount of time as the vet BUT it means future tests will be cheaper 

We're waiting for test results before doing anything. The vet seems perplexed because this is 3 Abscesses in under 30 days, that seemed to pop up overnight.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*



> The good news is that I've found out WADDL will take submissions from Canadian's  Its not super helpful at this time because I'd have to order VacuTubes from Jeffers, then wait for those, and then take samples, then send, blah blah blah and it would end up being the same amount of time as the vet BUT it means future tests will be cheaper


That's good...to hear :thumb:



> We're waiting for test results before doing anything. The vet seems perplexed because this is 3 Abscesses in under 30 days, that seemed to pop up overnight.


Glad you are waiting....... because it is not the typical signs for CL.....hope the test comes back negative ....


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: LUMP on Goats neck! UPDATE: BAD NEWS, More cysts*

I'm hoping that all ends up well, even if you still need to rehome them, it's never good when you have to put alot of $ into any animal, it ends up breaking you and just prolonging the inevitable. Spending $ to keep them is completely different than the funds used to make them healthy.
To have these just come up as fast as they did, I've never read anything about Cl causing "overnight" abcesses, my guess wiould be that she has an ongoing staph type infection in her system that is untouched by conventional antibiotics...it's always best to know for sure though.

Prayers that your next herd is healthier and hardier than these have been for you.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

Well the vet called. Cissy is positive for CL and its advancing like rapid fire here. She already has 2 more abscesses starting since the last one. Mione most likely has it now as well. The real kicker is that now we cannot take them to auction since Cissy always has an open sore, we can't sell them or GIVE them away.. no one wants them and the vet is trying to convince us to keep them for the rest of their lives. We cannot. This is absolutely ridiculous. The goal was to get into goats and breed and now we're being judged by our vet for wanting to euthanize two goats with an infectious disease that we could spread to OTHER farms in our area. 

She'll be back in a week from the goat breeders conference (thats a real kick in the teeth, isn't it..) and will probably try to convince us not to euthanize again. We may be looking for a new vet, and won't be getting goats again.


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## Polarhug (Jul 1, 2010)




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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

A PLAN has been devised!

Well.. Mum and I talked it over and we're going to tell the vet this, since she'll give us Case-bac. We're going to vaccinate both girls with Case-Bac. I've done some reading that says its been effective in already infected goats, its worth a shot right? Then in 4 or 5 months we'll reevaluate the situation. If Cissy is still getting the abscesses like crazy and Mione is too, they'll be euthanized. If not, then we'll carry on. They'll just have to be pets and we won't keep goats is all aside from them.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

I am sorry it turned out to be CL. The Case-bac won't cure the CL...nothing has been developed yet to cure CL...so they'll always have it. I personally would just put them down or tell the vet if they don't want to put them down then they can take them and rehome them or whatever, but if you can't keep them I don't see how it's fair to the goat or someone else to have to deal with them. And if someone else doesn't know much about CL then it can be dangerous since it can spread to people as well as possibly spreading it around to more goats. Also, I don't know if you are planning on getting more goats after these, but the longer they are on your property with open wounds the more danger any future goats would be in to get CL. Good luck with whatever you decide!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

i know its late but if you ever need the tubes to put the blood in contact me - I have vaccutainer tubes I can send to you easily 

Sorry you feel you have to get rid of the goats and not do this ever again.


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

I agree with Kylee.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

I'm personally fine with euthanizing. The vet won't be back until next week, this was our current solution but it is still not out of the question to euthanize. I know case-bac won't cure. I know nothing cures, I've just heard of it helping a little but in other cases its only made the situation worse. So we're not sure whats going to happen at this point.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Its your animal and your decision to end the suffering that is happening for the poor thing, so frustrating when a vet decides its not to be. I would be looking for another vet if you can, one that will work with you and hopefully not cost as much


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:hug:


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