# Does this look and sound like CL?



## smshooter515 (Jan 20, 2013)

This is a 7 month old doeling i raised. We have no history of CL and have not purchased any new goats since october. 
Day 1 Saturday: noticed she had swelling under her neck it was long oval shaped and soft. Stuck a needle in it and drew out clear serum type fluid. So i gave her LA 200 and took her to the vet and he did nothing but say he didnt think it looked like CL and it would prolly go away. Day 2: it looked the same so i gave more LA200. Day 3 it was bigger and hard in the middle so i shaved it and cut a hole in it. It didnt drain like a typical abscess just had thick blood and serum in it. No puss. I flushed it with hydrogen peroxide and put Neosporin in it. Day 3: it was harder. I flushed it again and got a tiny bit of yellow puss. Everyday since then i have left it alone. I have given her LA200 for 6 days now. Its still the same swollen and soft all around and hard big lump in the middle. Now i dont know if i made it better or worse. Still wonder if it could be CL. And i dont know how long it too long to be giving the LA 200. Any help is greatly appreciated! This is the best pic i could get.


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## LamanchaAcres (Jan 11, 2013)

I think she has bottle jaw (witch is not good if not treated immediatly, we lost one because of that). I would do some research on bottle jaw and see if that is really what it is.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

Unfortunately it does look like CL. Its also in a likely location. For any antibiotic to be effective I believe it has to be injected INTO the abscess. Others will have a better idea hopefully.


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## chapinranch (Apr 30, 2012)

It may be

*BottleJaw in the Goat
*

* Severe Intermandibular Edema *

Seemingly healthy goat with good appetite continually gets thin and unthrifty - is anemic and begins to show signs of bottle jaw..Why? 
*Well there are a few reasons for this to happen.. * 
Copper deficiency,
Coccidiosis, 
Bracken fern poisoning, 
Inadequate protein synthesis due to liver damage,
Mycotoxins (a toxin produced by an organism of the fungus family, which includes mushrooms, molds and yeasts.)
Stomach worms especially *Barberpole worm *(Haemonchus contortus ),
Johnes Disease 
and Liver Fluke all can cause bottle jaw in the goat:​Animal ID: CU Misc
Species: Goat
Tissue: Head, Jaw, Intermandibular Space
Morphologic DX: Severe intermandibular edema
Etiologic DX: ACUTE HEMONCHOSIS
Lesion or DX Name: Bottlejaw
Lesion Description: Soft fluctuant mass of the intermandibular space.The ventral curve of this animal's jaw region is because of marked subcutaneous edema in this region.
Remarks: In many instances, when anemia is seen in sheep and goats, acutely and severely, it is often due to Hemonchus contortis, the large stomach worm (barber pole worm). The parasites cause the lesion as a result of hypoproteinemia as they destroy the blood in the abomasum. It should also be noted that many times "rats leave the sinking ship" so to speak, and so the worms leave the abomasum and they will disintegrate in the small intestine from the change in pH from acid to base. Thus, in some cases of acute severe hemonchosis, one may not find any parasites in the abomasum or small intestine which caused the disease, because they were destroyed. Many sheep do have a few hemonchus in the abomasum, but without anemia it should probably not be called hemonchosis, a disease caused by hemonchus. At a later date, though, this may be true and proper treatment used.
© Cornell Veterinary Medicine


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

LamanchaAcres said:


> I think she has bottle jaw (witch is not good if not treated immediatly, we lost one because of that). I would do some research on bottle jaw and see if that is really what it is.


This does not look like bottle jaw to me. In bottle jaw the entire jaw is fluid filled and squishy feeling. Kinda like your jaw would be if you just had your wisdom teeth cut out on both sides. Bottle jaw affects both sides at the same time.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

http://myhobbyfarm.com/CLA.html

This is bottle jaw
http://edenhills.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/anemic-goats/


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## smshooter515 (Jan 20, 2013)

Ok thanks for all the info and links. I have done lots of reading and went out to look over her again. She looks in overall good health, pink eye lids/ gums and eating well. The lump is on one side and is still a hard ball with swelling all around. Still looks just like CL. But is it possible when nothing else has shown any signs of it. Never had any other abscesses and i raised her so i know shes never had it before. I want to take her back to the vet but it cost me an arm and leg just for him to look at her. Im scared to cut it open again too. Im so lost thanks everyone for helping so much


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

How long has she had the lump? Can you take a really close look at it with a magnifying glass to see if maybe she has a thorn or something in it. While it does look like CL, I'm looking for other possibilities as well. I wouldn't lance it without vet supervision and would watch it to see what it does. Another thing you can check is a tooth abscess. This would involve some fancy finger work and a pvc pipe. Basically you wedge the pipe in her mouth so she can't bite you and check/feel around her back teeth. See if you can see anything that would cause the outside abscess.


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## smshooter515 (Jan 20, 2013)

It will be one week tomorrow that shes had it. Good idea about the tooth abscess gonna check on that tomorrow


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## Wlschwallenberg (Jan 4, 2013)

Sorry to hijack your post I just have a quick question: 

Is CL pus always 'cottage cheesy'? Or can it have a smooth consistency? Our Boer doe had an abscess on her cheek/jaw that I lanced and it had a couple firm pieces of something in it, along with a thick, creamy pus. Almost looked like reatained cud that had pushed its way thru her cheek or something, or maybe a spider bite? We decided to wait and watch for another abscess.


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## smshooter515 (Jan 20, 2013)

No worries on hijackin  the vet told me he didnt think mine was CL because its always very thick puss and not watery at all. He said you even have to peel the layers like an onion at times. But when he saw mine it was still soft now its hard and feels like theres puss in it.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

Its my understanding that its not cottage cheese looking in the beginning but rather toward the end when its about to burst. Its a good idea to collect the "puss" of any abscess and send it in for testing to make sure. When a CL abscess bursts its a greenish looking color.


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## Wlschwallenberg (Jan 4, 2013)

Hmm. Well that's not what I wanted to hear. It was yellowish/green, very thick. But the hard lumps inside of it, what the heck? I had a sample of the lumps and pus, but my hubby threw the bag into the fire not knowing what was in it! D'oh!!


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

In the fire is the best place for it to be if it was disposed of.


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## Wlschwallenberg (Jan 4, 2013)

Well yes BUT I needed the sample to have it tested! Lol hopefully there will be no more abscesses.


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

if you get any more drainage I'd have it tested. You could draw and send in a sample to WADDL


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## MooresPride (Dec 22, 2012)

I would defiantly say CL. Thick yellows puss. Sanitize everything and burn or toss it. Don't let it get in the grown or anywhere if you have opened it. We wear gloves and are very cautious about it with sheep and are now vaccinating babies just to be on the safe side.


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## Wlschwallenberg (Jan 4, 2013)

Where do I get the vaccine? Is it something I can get or do I have to go through a vet?


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

You can get the vaccine at online at JeffersFarm or ValleyVet. Your goats will always test positive for it once its given and it may cause issues when selling them. Its labeled for sheep so I don't know if it positivity works in goats. Hopefully others will chime in and give better information.


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## Wlschwallenberg (Jan 4, 2013)

Ok thank you


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

I found this, which gives a little more information on the vaccine. Hopefully it will help those in need.
http://clgoatcare.org/


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## clearwtrbeach (May 10, 2012)

People are vaccinating for goats. One thing you need to remember is if you test your animals and they are negative, then you vaccinate you will get a positive reading. Making it impossible to 'prove' your goats are negative. I am contemplating the vaccine, but before I do I'll test get my negative results and then immediately vaccinate; so I can show 'hey they were negative and then we immediately vaccinated that's why they will show a positive from now on'. It's about the only way I, myself, feel I can confidently 'prove' to someone yes they are + but only because I vaccinated. Others are vaccinating and just advising they vaccinated. Again, for my personally I'd want to see a neg. test followed by a vaccine. Just my opinion. Hope that helps.


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## milkmaid (Sep 15, 2010)

Whether it's CL or not, you do want to be sure not to contaminate anything. I would separate the goat if at all possible.


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## smshooter515 (Jan 20, 2013)

smshooter515 said:


> This is a 7 month old doeling i raised. We have no history of CL and have not purchased any new goats since october.
> Day 1 Saturday: noticed she had swelling under her neck it was long oval shaped and soft. Stuck a needle in it and drew out clear serum type fluid. So i gave her LA 200 and took her to the vet and he did nothing but say he didnt think it looked like CL and it would prolly go away. Day 2: it looked the same so i gave more LA200. Day 3 it was bigger and hard in the middle so i shaved it and cut a hole in it. It didnt drain like a typical abscess just had thick blood and serum in it. No puss. I flushed it with hydrogen peroxide and put Neosporin in it. Day 3: it was harder. I flushed it again and got a tiny bit of yellow puss. Everyday since then i have left it alone. I have given her LA200 for 6 days now. Its still the same swollen and soft all around and hard big lump in the middle. Now i dont know if i made it better or worse. Still wonder if it could be CL. And i dont know how long it too long to be giving the LA 200. Any help is greatly appreciated! This is the best pic i could get.


Update: sent the vet pics and with all my history he still seems to think its a hematoma or tooth abscess because there is still isnt a lot of puss. So hes gonna look at her tomorrow. Not as nervous but still have my fingers crossed. Especially since we are supposed to take one to show next month. I refuse to spread it!


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## Wlschwallenberg (Jan 4, 2013)

Good luck!!


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## Mimigwen (Jan 5, 2012)

Sounds like it is progressing fast for CL. We bought a doe who developed (we think) a CL lesion, we put her down before it ruptured, but from 1st appearance to nearly rupture was 6 weeks...

Mary


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Here is a picture of lump sites on the neck/face and what they mean. I copied it awhile back from a univeristy site but don't remember which one. #7 under the chin is the usual site for CL. Yours looks more on the side so could be #5 infection of the thymus gland. Ask the vet about it. 
EDITED: Also, if the discharge has a foul smell, it is usually not CL. Other infections causing abscesses in goats - Streptococcus, Archanobacterium, and Pasteurella. Someone mentioned the onion ring look - that is in sheep. Goats with CL present as soft and pasty as per the Merck Veterinary Manual http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/10801.htm


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## smshooter515 (Jan 20, 2013)

Actually the smell is so weird its more like toothpaste or something? Weird


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## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

I would separate her from the others to be safe and test it.


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

According to WADDLE a goat vaccinated with the new goat vaccine tests negative 3 months after being given the shot. Just in case that info's of help to someone.

Staff is also green/yellow and smells funny.


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## smshooter515 (Jan 20, 2013)

Thanks for the pic i also think its more like 5 hard to tell tho it kinda goes from under the jaw down the neck. Cant wait to take her to the vet tomorrow.


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## NyGoatMom (Jan 26, 2013)

Hoping for the best!! ray:


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## smshooter515 (Jan 20, 2013)

Well cant be positive its not CL without doing a test. But 2 different vets say its caused by something else not CL. Its not the typical hard knot like CL its more like a hematoma with swelling all around it so im supposed to leave it alone.  thanks for all your responses!


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## happybleats (Sep 12, 2010)

Does not look like bottle jaw...It looks like a cyst. Not all cysts are CL...I would keep it drained and flush is three times a day with iodine...you want the "wall" of the cyst to shrink if its thick...in the mean time try not to let it close up... You want to kill every bit of the bacteria causing the cyst. 
FOr Wischwallenberg: CL is cheesy gunk..some times a bit of liquid and blood but mostly cheesy...Cl can be carried in a host for 2 years before you see a cyst, so buying a seeming clean goat can bring frustration later ...a blood test is the only way to know if a goat has been exposed to CL . A cyst is not always CL and some pusses are creamy in a non CL cyst...such a a vaccination lump...Keep it flushed and clean. Never allow any puss or cyst matter to touch the ground..always wear gloves and throw everything away in a zip lock baggie or burn it..just in case : )


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## Wlschwallenberg (Jan 4, 2013)

happybleats said:


> Does not look like bottle jaw...It looks like a cyst. Not all cysts are CL...I would keep it drained and flush is three times a day with iodine...you want the "wall" of the cyst to shrink if its thick...in the mean time try not to let it close up... You want to kill every bit of the bacteria causing the cyst.
> FOr Wischwallenberg: CL is cheesy gunk..some times a bit of liquid and blood but mostly cheesy...Cl can be carried in a host for 2 years before you see a cyst, so buying a seeming clean goat can bring frustration later ...a blood test is the only way to know if a goat has been exposed to CL . A cyst is not always CL and some pusses are creamy in a non CL cyst...such a a vaccination lump...Keep it flushed and clean. Never allow any puss or cyst matter to touch the ground..always wear gloves and throw everything away in a zip lock baggie or burn it..just in case : )


Thank you! I was VERY careful to wear gloves and not let anything hit the ground. The sample I had in a ziplock bag got burned by accident along with all papers towels and gauze pads. Thanks to my hubby. Lol


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