# FF with possible triplets... Advice/Tips



## KBFarms (Mar 7, 2012)

Hey everyone!

I have a FF due within a day or two, and she looks as big as a house. She looks like she may have triplets, and I'm just looking for advice from you all--or maybe some reassurance?--about the kidding. 

The first doe I ever assisted had triplets, and they were all tangled and we ended up needing to do a c-section, and we lost 2. I guess I keep having flashbacks to that day, and I'm a bit nervous. I've obviously assisted other births before but it's been a while since I've had to deal with more then 2 and I'm scared!

Give me your experiences, please


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

They don't always tangle....we all worry....it is OK... :hug: 

FF's usually have singles or twins but... occasionally can have multiples....although with multiples... they are usually a bit smaller so... they won't be to big to deliver..... We always hope for the best and we are there for them... if they need help...I am sure.... if you have already dealt with a bad situation... that you do have the know how...believe me... it is like a bike ...once you learn... you always remember.... Happy kidding.... :thumb:


----------



## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

We had a FF deliver triplets with no problems this season and all did very well. Hopefully it will go smoothly.


----------



## ThreeHavens (Oct 20, 2011)

Our FF kidded with very large twins (she was overdue and we didn't know to "go in" to check on things. Ended up that she just needed her water broken). She needed some help getting them out, but she bounced right back and is a great momma =3


----------



## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Don't let her labor too long before you "go in" to check. Is it right there or do you have to reach in farther...can you? When you do...close your eyes...be calm...try to picture in your "minds eye" what you are seeing...feeling...you are looking for parts...identify the parts...you want the head...do you feel it? 

My last time I had two kids on the ground and one stuck...the head was turned back...found the nose...moved it into position...pulled a little with next contraction...out he came.

My vet told me you can get them out if you just have the head...lift up and free the shoulders...

Good luck!


----------



## nubians2 (Feb 20, 2011)

I had a ff nubian have triplets last year. It was my first kidding. The first baby presented perfect, #2 & #3 tried to come out together. One was perfectly positioned the other breech. We stopped the breech from coming out and helped pull the correct one and then #3 slide out. She did great. She was agood mom but this year she is better with her twins. I think it was alot to have three the first time but all were healthy and she fed them all til weaning. I didnt bottle feed at all.


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Good word Di!! Very well put.

Yep, FFs do have trips.

Whenever a doe is in hard labor with no results for more than 10 minutes she probably needs help. It can be as simple as a no front legs presentation. 
All kids are usually born within 20 minutes from the onset.


----------



## KBFarms (Mar 7, 2012)

Thanks so much everyone!!

I think I am afraid most of the head being turned back. I had one present one front foot, and when I went in, the baby was upside down with it's head curled towards the back. No matter what I did, the head would not stay in the right position. I'm afraid of not being able to get the head in the birth canal again! (that doe was also a c-section, and she and the baby made it just fine).

I appreciate the tips and experiences so much. She should be going tonight or tomorrow, so I'm trying to calm myself so I can be there for her. She's a very special goat (I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about) and am just a nervous nellie.

Thank you thank you! Will be very sure to keep you all updated


----------



## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

Absolutely! Once you have a hold of the head...DON'T LET GO...it will pull back to the original position...you have to keep it in your hand...kinda tease it out...I placed my fingers behind the ears...it gives you a little "purchase"...use your other hand to reach your fingers in under the nose to lift it into position.

Then there was the delivery that I saw two feet, at first I thought "yeah, feet first", then a head "popped out", I quickly realized it couldn't be the same kid, then I thought "OMgosh, get the breach kid out before he suffocates", so I left the head and pulled the pretty limp breach out, got him breathing, by then the "head" was already delivered and being cared for by mom.

Learn about "bouncing" it's really more of a "hug" then a bounce. But, save that for when you think they are probably done. I generally can tell if there is another one in there. I've only had to "go after" that one once, when Izzy had the quints. He was kinda rolled up in a ball...not much room and we had to bottle feed 3 of them. I don't like quints!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Great advice Di.... :thumb: 


You can also invest in a lamb puller... to put it over the head and behind the ears ....to help keep the head into position.... while pulling the kid... :hug:


----------



## KBFarms (Mar 7, 2012)

Thanks again... the head advice really helps. We breed pygmies so there's not a lot of room in there, but it helps that I have freakishly small hands 

Alright everyone. If she's on her side giving a few good push every 10 or so minutes(no crying yet, some quiet grunts), how long should I give her before she should be progressing??

Just worried. Ahh!


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I bet by the time you get back here you'll have babies!
The quiet grunts are good. She shouldnt scream for more than a minute or so,
you will know if she is in distress or not.
Happy kidding!


----------



## rosti (Feb 1, 2011)

If she is pushing for 45 minutes without progress, you will need to "go in" and check things out.


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

I dont let them go much more than 10 minutes if no progression, 5 if she is screaming. Only had one do that, there was a head but no legs presentation. 
When a doe stops labor there is trouble; a breech or tangled kids, even an expired one.
You will have to assist. 
Waiting for the good news KB!


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> I dont let them go much more than 10 minutes if no progression, 5 if she is screaming. Only had one do that, there was a head but no legs presentation.
> When a doe stops labor there is trouble; a breech or tangled kids, even an expired one.
> You will have to assist.
> Waiting for the good news KB!


 I agree...I don't like waiting to long...time is crucial in some situations..... :hug:


----------



## KBFarms (Mar 7, 2012)

*Re: FF with possible triplets... Advice/Tips--Bad Update*

Hey everyone. It's hard to write this now but I think I should while it's fresh in my mind so I can give you all better information.

She began heavy pushing and we had a kid within a few minutes. :kidblue: Very small, maybe 1.5 or 2 pounds max (pygmy babies). Surprisingly strong for how little he was, and mom bonded with him very well--she loved him to pieces. We actually had to take him away because she didn't want to get down to business and push with him waddling around her. Once we did that, she pushed hard for maybe 5 minutes (probably almost an hour after kid #1), we were presented with one back hoof, I went in and grabbed the second, and out popped a much bigger kid--4 pounds at least. :kidred: Was not very comfortable with how big she was, as I like them to be 3-ish pounds, but she fit and all was good.

Everyone had told us that you should have another kid within 15 minutes, and after 30 minutes she still hadn't settled down to push or even look uncomfortable. I knew there was another one in there because I felt it when repositioning the second. I went in and got one hoof and a head, and this thing felt giant compared to the other two. I tried to fit it out that way, but it was no go so I pushed the kid back in and had a hard time grasping the other front leg. When I did, I must have twisted the body a bit, and I'm not sure how it happened but the chin got lifted and when I pulled the front legs the head went back. When I went back in to get the head, it was so far turned back (nose towards the tail of the kid), it felt like a baby with no head or neck. It was unreal. When I located the head, I grabbed the jaw and tried to guide it towards the feet, although I wasn't sure if it would even fit if I did get it lined up.

And that's when I remember feeling it, although I don't know if that's when it happened. I've held a uterus together while a vet stitched up a doe, so I've felt my fair share of 'other things' and I knew I was feeling intestine. When I pulled my hand out, it was covered in blood. It could have been that I was in there too long (10 minutes?), the uterus was trying to shrink, or was stretched too big... I have zero idea. All I know is that when I felt it I pulled out of there and knew I couldn't do any more.

Immediately we got the car around and took her to the New Bolton Center in PA. Somehow she made it there (the car ride was at least an hour--people were in the road trying to watch fireworks!! The car ride IN.SANE.). They went in, the baby was of course dead, and they came back and told us the doe had a 10-20% chance of making it, because the uterus had torn so long they couldn't reach all of it to sew it back up. She'd ruptured the membrane into her intestines as well so all of that bacteria was released into her body. We're idiots and told them to try to save her, and when they came back they said that they were able to sew more of the uterus than they had originally thought, but we were still going to be dealing with a body-wide infection (sepsis). They're doing all they can for her now, as she's hooked up to IV and getting fed fluids and antibiotics. She began passing the placenta before we left as well, so that was once less hurdle we had to jump. This morning they called and said she had eaten ( :clap: ) and only had a low fever (they were expecting a high one, probably what would kill her). So she's doing well, but prognosis is very very guarded for the first 72 hours.

The two babies that did make it are doing well, although the bigger one looks two weeks older then the runt. Both are strong, and we have other does to milk out to bottle feed them.

I just don't know what I should have done. Should I not have gone in for the last kid? Should I have waited for her to position the baby, like she had with the first two? How am I supposed to get the head forward? I did what I've been shown and told and it still went terrible. The last doe we had with a head-back presentation ruptured/uterus fell apart, so I feel like it is something I'm doing (we saved that doe and kid, both are 100% and in the back yard as I type). It just felt like I had NO room to pull the head around, and that I had no room to move the body. Is this because I'd waited so long and the uterus WAS shrinking?

This is a difficult time, but I don't feel like I can keep doing this if it's something I'm doing to these beautiful, trusting does. I need as much advice and even the hard facts. This doe grew up in the house with us and very very special. Please send her your thoughts. It is probably irrational to spend as much money as we are on a goat, but we have to try.

I'll be visiting her when this gets posted, but I'll get back to everyone as soon as I can. Thank you in advance. I think I gave all the facts but if you need to ask questions, don't feel like you need to tiptoe around it. If it's something I'm doing or need to know then I have to learn.


----------



## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

No, you did the right thing. Was the blood thick & chunky? If so kid was already expired. Head back the wrong way? Expired.
Nothing you could have done about that.
You did GREAT!! As a matter of fact heroic!
Doe should have had babies in right postion for birthing before she went in labor, not your fault at all. Hugs.

Having said that two things come to mind. Loose minerals with lots of copper & BoSe before kidding? If you are in selenuim def area. :hug:


----------



## Shazzles (Apr 28, 2012)

You did the right thing. I would have done the same, a lot of us would have i think. 
Big HUGS :hug: glad the two kids are doing well and will pray mumma keeps doing well too.


----------



## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Nothing you are doing that is causing these dystocia's... some does are genetically prone and nutrition does play a part.
I've not had to use one so far but I think having a lamb puller handy would help with keeping the head in the position needed to deliver.

I pray that your mama recovers from the ordeal and I hope she recognizes her kids once she's home.


----------



## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

No, you did the right thing. I had 2 c-sections in the first 2 years of breeding here. I think I wasn't feeding right and may have overfed grain at first. I'll pray for your girl and hope she's better soon. I have times when I think "no more" but, I get over it. :hug:


----------



## goatgirlzCA (Mar 9, 2011)

Just my two cents - don't freak yourself out thinking its triplets. I had a doe this year that wasn't very big and had triplets, and one that I was then worried would have quads she was so wide, and had one! My doe with triplets was a FF and did great - textbook birth. It will all be good! Sending happy thoughts


----------



## sweetgoats (Oct 18, 2007)

It happens but let me aks you.

When you went in, you said you flet a foot and a head. Did you try to find the toher foot BEFORE you started to pull?

Also, if she is progressing let her go, BUT you and only you know how things really went, so wht you did is that I am sure most of us would have. 

I will be praying mom makes it ray: , and please let us know how she is doing.


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

head to the side is one of the hardest presentations to correct, and ruptured uterus is one of the common complications seen with this presentation because as the head goes around often the mouth is open and those teeth rip the uterus. i would say you had no room simply because she is a small breed doe and a first timer - not becaise the uterus was shrinking. 

i agree with lori through - the only thing i would have dobe differently to you is try to line up the othr foot when you had the head and one foot. 


feeding during pregnancy is difficult. most people cut out tje grain late in pregnancy because they are worried it will make for big kids. but what most people domt realise is that the highest nutritional demand on the doe comes from the last four weeks. so by stopping hwr grain you limit her nutrition when she needs it the most. this sets her up for metabolic diseases such as preg tox and milk fever. the interesting thing also is that the day befoe they kid, the babies get themselves into position and they need lot of energy to do that. so if mumma is short on nutrition you tend to see a lot of malpresentations.


----------



## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

I am so sorry for your ordeal. Very similar to one we had this year. Head back and totally twisted kid. (We had three legs presenting!) We lost the baby but Mama and other baby have done great.
I know the feeling of wanting to give up. Sometimes it just hurts so bad. But when things straighten out and start going right again; we remember why we choose this lifestyle.
Will keep positive thoughts for the mama goat.


----------



## KBFarms (Mar 7, 2012)

Nancy D,

The blood was from momma--bright red and fresh. I think the kid expired while I was working on it... maybe that's why the head flopped to the side.

I should have mentioned, but yes-- BoSe and loose minerals, and we do copper boluses because we see a lot of deficiencies here.

Shazzles,

Thank you. Glad to hear that you would have gone in too.

liz,

I have a lamb puller, decided not to use it. I think you're right--I'm not going to mess around next time and keep one on the head just so I don't lose it.

Di,

Thank you. We have overfed grain too in the beginning, and I think we're going to re-evaluate again.

GoatgirlzCA,

Thank you

sweetgoats,

"Did you try to find the other foot BEFORE you started to pull?"

Typically I would have, but baby #1 was delivered with one foot + head, so I thought instead of spending time messing around, I would try that first. Obviously he was too big, so I then pushed back and fought for leg number 2.

She wasn't progressing at all with the last one, but I think you're right too--if she had been I would have let her go.

Thank you.

Keren,

I wonder if it was the mouth that did it, or me when I pushed the baby back in--we recovered his body from the hospital today, and he was a very large/long kid. 5 pounds? Far too big for my liking as a pygmy.

We have always gone light in the beginning and given more feed at the end, as our first doe was tired/had preg tox after triplets. I think we're going to switch to NO feed in the beginning (they have plenty of space to browse and graze), and some in the final weeks.

Thank you.

luvmyherd,

Thank you so much. How did you end up getting the kid out? Do you remember?




To all--

Thank you so much for your support and advice; it is overwhelming and so uplifting to hear from all of you! I have questions but am so tired from trying to bottle feed these two kids, work, and visit the doe at the hospital.

She is doing well. I visited her yesterday and today, and have been bringing her tree leaves. Our last c-section doe had her uterus fall apart when the vet was stitching her up and had been given a 20% chance to live. We had her in the barn with a heater on her + a dog coat and antibiotics. She refused all food for 3 days, and only had a sip or two of water. She inhaled leaves! The doe at the hospital now is eating pretty well at the hospital but she is really enjoying her leaves, and we leave big branches full of them in the stall for the staff to feed her.

She remembers her babies. We brought them up to visit (no nursing) and she talks to them and cleans their butts. She surprised all of us! What a good mum! I felt so bad when we went home, she did not want to see them go. 

She has one more day until she gets into some clearer waters, so everyone keep sending your thoughts and prayers. I appreciate everything and thank you all so very much!


----------



## luvmyherd (Apr 9, 2011)

KBFarms said:


> How did you end up getting the kid out? Do you remember?


The story is in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=31227&start=0

It was mostly just working and working to get the kid in position and pulling. We were very lucky nothing ruptured as we were very hard on her. She recovered pretty quickly.

I hope your girl continues to recover. Looks like she is getting the best of care. There is only one goat vet near me and he just keeps office hours.


----------



## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

oh i am so glad to hear they are doing well! bless that mumma goat for loving her babies. just a thought - would the hospital bottle feed them if you left them there with her? a lot of the time, having something to love and care for can really help a sick mum pull through - she has something to live for. 

i think you are right re the lamb puller - when i feel there is not a lot of room it is always a good idea to put the lamb puller on the head and a rope on each leg so you dont lose them. you can have someone keep gentle pressure on them even when you push baby back so nothing goes astray. your feeding plan sounds fine and i used to do the same with my angoras and boers - just good quality oaten hay until a month before kidding then started them on grain. 

good luck and hugs to you and your doe


----------



## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Everyone has great advice.... :thumb: 

Prayers sent... :hug: ray:


----------

