# Do You Prefer Horned or De-horned Goats?



## Rex

Lets take a poll of forum users to see whether they prefer horned or de-horned goats for packing.

Go Horns!


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## sanhestar

Hi,

I use both horned and polled (no de-horning for me) goats. The polled goats mostly for demonstration or working with small kids, old people (retirement homes) or handicapped people - less danger of someone getting hurt.

But I do like the regal look of an older, horned buck or wether!


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## WinceWethers

We chose to leave the horns on our boys for a couple of reasons. To begin with, they just look fantastic. And, for protection-theirs and ours. 
(Great site by the way. Look forward to sharing more.)
Brona and Thomas
WNC


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## SilverSage

I have both and I really prefer the horned. It's weird, but they seem to be more secure in their 'sense of self' if goats have such a thing. If they were people, I'd say they are more self confident and well adjusted then the goats w/o any horns. That being said, I don't want another horned buck. I don't know if all bucks get a little touchy when you try to take a doe away or not, but I'd prefer that they don't have any extra weapons if that's the way they feel.  

Kathryne


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## goaties4me

As much as I like the looks of them, I've had too many bad experiences with horns so prefer without.  I NEVER want to have to dehorn a goat with existing horns again either so they must be burnt off early on while it's not so traumatic for them and they'll heal faster.


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## Hasligrove

I love the horned goats for several reasons...One they look cool, two they are the goats only defense in predator attacks and three they were put there for a reason so why mess with it (I'm a wimp when it comes to dehorning) 

Having said that....I am switching to dehorned goats because I have realized it is just too much stress and possible injury with my 2year old son. He can run with my 8 month old dehorned kids with no worries...but the horned boys...well I watch everyone like a hawk.

I may go back to horns when my human kids are grown.

Rachel Suomela
PacificPackGoats.com
"Life is Goat! Pack at it!"


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## steve morgan

Hi all, I'm mostly a lurker but will try to get on here more. The horn or no horn question is almost something you have to experience. I have 8 goats, 2, 4 year olds, 4, 3year olds and 2, 9 month olds. they all have horns and joust with each other all the time. No problem with me , but if my wife gets involved the two older ones get jealous and have nailed her more than once. One of the little boys is the same way. I do like the horns but you must be on guard at all times especially when around people that aren't use to the way goats act. Great sight, and will be on more often.. Steve


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## sweetgoatmama

I love the look of horned goats, but they can be dangerous for beginners. Alice uses her horned goats, so we mix the two often. She doesn't have any hesitation to use the horns as a restraint. 

I've read that this is a no-no but the goats we've had and worked with since birth, don't get at all aggressive about being handle them, so I think, like many things it's a matter of early training to put up with the handling. So many things we thought at first were absolute no-no's turned out to be not so and I suspect this is another of those.

My goats are dehorned but my hired hand's goats were all horned when she was here, and ALice's all are, so we have plenty of them around.


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## sanhestar

Steve,

I can't wholeheartedly agree with your experience that horned goats are dangerous to people who aren't used to being around goats.

I had in the last two years several groups of people here that didn't have any experience with goats. Most of our herd are horned and the goats act considerate and respectful around the "newcomers". It's more that they drop to a more unrespectful behaviour as soon as they sense that people are used to horns and goats.

The most dangerous goat we had (died last spring) was a hugh, polled Saanen wether who would climb up on people and children and/or try to butt children and adolescents. He had been raised on a chain and hadn't been socialised properly.


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## steve morgan

Rex, I most definately like and want horns for packing. Steve


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## Terri S

I like the horns. I do understand and think your decision needs to be based somewhat on where you live and your plans for your goat. Here in the mountains of Idaho, predators are a real possiblility. Lions, tigers and bears, on my!. Well no tigers but wolves indeed. Not to mention domestic dogs. If your goats are going to be exposed to these conditions, it seems to me that you should provide them with a form of defense and that would be horns. We were contacted in the past few weeks by a lady trying to get a value for a 3.5 year old Alpine packer that was killed. Not by a dog but by a bear. Yes a Black Bear. First I have ever heard of this. And not even in the west but PA. Couldn't believe it. The bear came right through the fence into the barn lot and killed the goat. PA Fish and Game even called to verify pricing. Anyways, the goat did NOT have horns. I do wonder how things would have been if the goat did have horns.


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## nrspence

Im going to guess with a bear looking for a quick meal horns really would not have mattered.
Nate


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## bernieh

I have only two wethers and they both have horns. Have not had any aggressive behavior.
Didn't I read someware that there are large blood vessels in there horns that help to cool them in hot weather? If this is the case seems to me they are essential
Bernie


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## sweetgoatmama

The horn blood supply theory doesn't seem to have held up in practice. People who are using both don't see much if any difference in horned vs' dehorned. And if you are about to become dinner, you are going to run making horns less useful than one would expect since they are on the wrong end of the goat at that point.

They do offer some protection but so does a dog. 

Everyone has their preferences but it seems to be one of those things where everyone has an opinion too. And what was believed at first, doesn't seem to have held up in practice. So we can all go on believing in our pet theories but I suspect that's all they are. And I don't plan to turn a vicious dog loose in my herd to test it. :? That's what my Pyrenees is for, and she does a great job.

Some people I sold a goat to lost that goat and another one, their neighbors lost 5 goats that their pyr couldn't get into the barn with the rest of the herd, which she saved, and their neighbors lost some sheep. All in one night a couple of days ago. Neighborhood dogs packed up and went on a kiling spree. The ones with the pyr managed to save most of their herd, since the pyr got them into the barn mostly and then defended them till Bill got out there. 

I had a drunk try to cross my pasture the other night and the pyr went ballistic. If you've ever heard them they scream like a wildcat when the S*** hits the fan. You KNOW you better run or someone is going to die, and it's not going to be the dog. They seldom do it but it makes the hair stand up.

I grabbed the phone and the .38, didn't know if I'd be shooting the guy or rescueing him, either way the dog was handling it and he turned tail and left. The cops came and got him a little later. Turns out he'd wrecked his car and was trying to find a phone.


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## Lightfoot Packgoats

Years ago, before I had goats, an entire herd of registered Toggenburg goats was slaughtered in one night by a pair of dogs here in Fallon. Every goat on the place died that night and every single one had horns, most of the does were also pregnant so that lady lost a lot that night. One dog was under ten pounds, so technically the 80 pound dog killed 17 goats all by its lonesome and every goat was horned.

I'm not thinking it mattered much.

Fast forward to a year ago last fall. A gal who bought a goat from me had a cougar come onto her place at night and attack her goats, another killing spree. She has nigerian dwarfs, pygmies and at the time, had the two packers, an adult alpine/togg cross and the baby boy she got from me who was a yearling or a weanling, I cannot remember which. He is polled.

That horned doe went for the cat after it had killed some of the little goats and apparently went after her friend, the buckling. She stood her ground, with the buckling cowering behind her, and faught like a tiger, holding the cat off until the owner could scare it away.

She was torn up, but lived.

Would she have been as effective a guardian without the horns? Likely not. Would she have stood her ground without them, maybe. I suspect most goats would not have stood their ground and would have died that night. Some individuals are more protective of their herd than others.

I don't want horned goats here, they are harder on fencing, more likely to get caught and strangled in fencing when they are young, more likely to have an accident with one of my children or one of their friends. They are also harder to saddle when I'm by myself because one twitch of the head might put out part of my face when I lean over the goat. I know they know where their horns are, but I've seen the torn udders, the ripped open sides and the bruises on the people, all of which have convinced me I'd prefer none around here. I do breed polled goats, which takes away the question.

I have a photo of my daughter when she was about 9 years old with a huge, red, welt and scrape on her belly and chest from a horned goat. She was standing with her goat for a group picture for 4-H. The goat with the kid next to her decided he didn't like her goat and went to hook him in the face with his horns. Sierra, who was on the other side of Gulliver did not see the other goat swing his head because Gully is so tall and Sierra was so short, so when he pulled back to avoid the blow, Sierra got it. That goat could have gored her had he swung his head harder. I think he pulled the blow, but she was cut, bruised and welted for about 12 inches, from below her belly button to her chest.

Call me a paranoid mom, but without horns that would not have been such a scary moment, nor would it have been so painful. Had her reflexes not been so fast (she twisted sideways and jumped back when she saw Gully react) and had that goat not pulled the blow at the last minute my child could have been eviscerated, all because a horned goat decided to knock her goat back. This was a pretty normal thing for a goat to do, it was not an aggressive act toward my daughter and I do believe that goat pulled the blow when he realized who he was about to hit, but frankly, that moment of terror will never leave my mind.

So argue away, our place won't have horns, my chidren and their friends are too precious. Loosing a goat to a dog is horrible and sad, but what might have happened to Sierra would have been far worse. I love guard dogs, who, by the way, can also kill people and children. There is no true safety in the world, only odds.

Charlie Goggin
Lightfoot Packgoats


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## goingnutsmom

I too like the looks of horns on goats. Lots of my friends have goats with horns and they do fine. Since we have kids (human), we disbud all our babies. I have also seen the damage they can do. My past boss had 11 staples put in his head from a horned goat. He was working on a fence and the goat came up and smashed him in the head when we was bent down working on the botton of the fence. 
At this point in time, our packers are dairy goats and we have one wether that is 9 months old. We are hoping to keep wethers out of this springs kids. I have heard of horror stories of horned goats tearing up dairy goats and I don't want this to happen to our girls. So some day, down the road, I would like to have horned goats.

Debbie L.
www.freewebs.com/hillbillyfarm
www.freewebs.com/shastapackgoats


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## Rex

I've seen two horned wethers hold off a determined Rotweiller. Both goats were torn up but so was the dog. I have, and have had small children around our goats for many years. I'm talking about literally hundreds of goats horned and dehorned. I can say that the worst pain I ever received from a goat was a dehorned doe that kicked me in the nose while I was milking. Neither I nor any member of our family has had more than a minor scratch from a horned goat. That said, I totally understand why someone would not want to take a chance with an injury when they don't have to. Horned goats need to be handled differently than dehorned goats. We never lean over a horned goat without putting our hand on the back of their neck and never allow any fighting among the goats when we are around. Thats the time most accidents happen as Charlie outlined in her post. As for getting head butted, well a goats head is much harder than a humans and horns or not, if they butt you in the head the human will likely end up with stitches and the goat will end up on the barbecue.

Ironically enough the worst injury any of our boys ever received was from being stepped on by the horse. Here's a five year study on horse related injuries done in only a small section of Montata. You can times this by about 100.



> Otoupalik's original study found that St. Patrick Hospital, a Level II trauma center drawing from 11 counties, saw 482 people with 802 horse-related injuries between 1995 and 2000. Thirty-seven percent had arm or leg injuries. Thirty-one percent had head or neck injuries. Six people died. The youngest victim was one, and the oldest was 88. Males between 30 and 39 made up the largest group of patients. May was the worst month for accidents.


As you can see horses are much more dangerous yet people think nothing about letting their children ride off on one. How many people do goats kill each year? I think we should keep things in perspective.


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## sweetgoatmama

Horseback riding is considered one of the most dangerous sports there is, right up there with black diamond skiing. Despite the fact that I have worked in the horse industry for 30+ years, I still have a huge respect for something that large with a brain the size of a mouse.

I have had more than one friend die or be permanently injured from horses. And none of them were doing anything that could have been considered risky in the context of horse handling in general. Goats are way more user-friendly, horns or not. 

Here I get about the same percentage of requests for horned or dehorned kids as the poll is showing. I think you pick what you will feel comfortable with and if horns aren't it, there are other ways to protect your stock.

Personally, I love the way they look, but after having been bashed by Alice's horned goats a few times I just don't want to put up with it.


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## Rex

sweetgoatmama said:


> but after having been bashed by Alice's horned goats a few times I just don't want to put up with it.


We need to get Alice on here to defend herself.


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## sweetgoatmama

In defense of Alice's goats, they are not very well socialized and kind of brats. They know they are horned and they have no compunction against using them to push people around. She knows how I feel so she'll have to defend herself. I have been knocked down and fairly seriously hurt by three of her goats, or was it two and he got two cracks at me? :evil: Can't remember, she has gotten a lot tougher with them since these incidents. 
I, on the other hand, have gotten a shock collar. :twisted:


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## CNPACK

I prefer horns because they help cool the goats down in hot weather. They are also help for protection, and they look nice.


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## Girl Scout Packrat

I have Alpines - de-horned, primarily because it is a safety issue with children - the sole reason I do this! Here in Texas, I have not run into a predator issue - EVER - anywhere we have been backpacking, nor at our small 5-acre hobby farm in the East Texas Piney Woods. 

I pack with Junior, Cadette and Senior Girl Scouts.


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## idahonancy

It seems odd in todays world to be concerned with an increasing threat of predators. Here in Idaho it use to be almost certain peace in the woods. The big cats, bears, and upset moose were seldom bothersome while bugling elk in the backcountry. Recently times have really changed. We archery hunt the Sawtooth National Wilderness. Now you here the howl of dogs when you bugle. The dogs are huge, numberous, and agile. They bring down bull elk, moose, and deer. Horns or not I don't think the goats would stand a chance against these dogs. Ours are dehorned due to living on 1 acer in a suburban neighborhood. I keep the goats close and carry the alternative to horns on my side. 
IdahoNancy Oberpacker


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## Rex

They are known locally as "government dogs". I also carry and extra set of horns. 

Here's a still shot from some video I took during hunting season. This one is only 30 yards away with the rest of the pack behind it. [attachment=0:35yw4w6w]Wolf at 30 yards.jpg[/attachment:35yw4w6w]


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## GoatTracksMagazine

We have both horned and de-horned goats, and have not noticed any difference with their dealing with heat. 

As to protecting themselves, I think horned goats would have an edge on inexperienced dogs, but with experienced dogs, or predators, they usually attack the head and rear, so the horns aren't much defense when they get teamed up on. When 2 dogs got into our pasture a year ago they killed one horned goat, and badly injured both horned and de-horned goats. I suspect this has to do with there being two dogs, and one of the dogs had killed before, and also that our horned goats were trying to defend the little de-horned fellers.

I think the key to having horned goats is to be mindful of eye safety. Even though ours are extremely tame, accidents do happen. Steve has a new beauty mark from an incident with our horned Alpine "Tuffy" when Steve accidentally stepped on Tuffy's back leg while trying to take a pannier off. Just as Tuffy reflexively reared his head back, Steve was reaching over to grab the pannier and got a horn in his cheek, just below his eye. It was definitely Steve's fault, and Tuffy stopped as soon as he realized he had hit Steve. Steve should have gotten stitches, but was 9 miles from the trail head at the start of a 7-day trip. He had a closed eye for 2 days, and a shiner for 3 weeks, but that was much better than losing his eye, even though I think he'd look cool as a pirate .

We tell people going with us around the goats to wear adequate eye protection, especially when they're saddling or packing up the goats. It's also a good idea to wear eye protection when feeding them or giving them treats.

We love the looks of our horned goats and have never had any other incident. And our de-horned goats mix in well with them (although they're not the "top dogs").

Shannon
Goat Tracks Magazine


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## ashkelon

I was given my goat, and he came with 18" horns. He is a Saanen wether, and is very careful with his horns. He has the run of the farm, and most -- if not all -- of the people here have experience with goats. As a result, he is very social, and respectful of all the people, even the five and six year old children. 

He does have his boinking, silly, moments, but he gets the hard eye from whoever is around, and typically he stops in his tracks with a "who me?" look. He is very bright, and I'm fortunate to be able to have him in this environment.

There are other goats there, both horned and polled. There are only a few, like him and a couple Boers, who are not destined for someone's table. He does have a lot of self confidence and humor, and is very level headed. He does not take any garbage from the draft horses, and when one mare was giving me trouble he gave her a good "thump" on the chest and backed her off. I don't know if he would be different without his horns, but I don't think he's going to be a problem.

He does "step up to the plate" when the other goats back off, but I think that's his base personality. There are predators here too, but most of them are human. I know he guards "his" horses now when I'm not around.

You are correct, horses are dangerous, and worthy of respect. It's different with the goat,though. He's more like the working dogs I've handled than the horses. I'm just amazed about what a witty, forthright, honest, animal he is. 

So far, he mostly uses his horns to tell me "where the itch is".


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## lonitamclay

I like both with horns and not. I have two wethers that are polled and do fine without and have had some with horns and they look gorgous but they seem to be more aggressive and do beat on my polled and dehorned goats. I believe horns do keep my goats cooler and fight off any preditors but with every goat and person it depends how it is managed.


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## Freedom

Glad to find the forum...I just knew I wasn't the only one 

I like horns... I do make some covers to keep myself and my son safe from accidents while out in the hills. Here is a couple picks from todays adventure.


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## ashkelon

What wonderful pictures! Your son is going to have such great memories!

What is your goat's name, and how old? 

I envy all of you the beauty of the places you live. When I'm in Iowa, I'm homesick for New Mexico and vice versa.

I love the look of the patterned goats, but that white really "pops" against the green. I like our light colored goats in that respect.

How do you make your horn covers, and what keeps them on? Friction?


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## Freedom

ashkelon said:


> What wonderful pictures! Your son is going to have such great memories!


Thank you!



ashkelon said:


> What is your goat's name, and how old?


 His name is "Vanilla" ..he is comming 3yrs old. He is a Nubian Wether. I think he is going to be quite an animal when he fills out and matures. I have his twin brother that I have been starting as well.



ashkelon said:


> I envy all of you the beauty of the places you live. When I'm in Iowa, I'm homesick for New Mexico and vice versa.
> 
> I love the look of the patterned goats, but that white really "pops" against the green. I like our light colored goats in that respect.
> 
> How do you make your horn covers, and what keeps them on? Friction?


I make the covers from sheeps skin shearling leather that I use to line saddles. Friction holds them on pretty well... If you pay attention to the way the hide is cut you can sew them with the wool going the right direction to help hold them on... Kind of like petting your dog backwards. 
My goats have never tried to use the pionts on me but accidents happen when the goats have ther heads down and raise them up suddenly as I lean over them.


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## spuds

Good thoughts from every one. I love the look of the horns but we are dehorned Nubian milkers. I hope to get them with small packs this summer. I am glad to hear that people do use both and have succesfull excursians. I was afraid that packing might be out and we would have to get a farm sitter but it looks like we will take them with us. 
Fresh milk for breakfast right?


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## mal2280

They must be horned..thats what makes them a goat. Its there signature that they are a man... LoL


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## Bent Barrow

Can I resurrect this old thread with a question? I have two three-day old Saanens that I plan to wether and sell as pack or cart goats, if I can find a buyer. I'm reluctant to wait too long to disbud them but I do want to offer them with horns if the buyer would prefer that. I've posted them on Craigslist and here. My question is this: if I do disbud them (which needs to happen within the next five days or so) then will they still have some value as pack goats? Are there folks who like them disbudded for this sort of work? 

Thanks,
M


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## Perry

Itâ€™s about Â½ and Â½â€¦some people prefer packgoats with horns, some not.


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## gsbswf

The main reason I prefer horns is all of the mess I am always hearing about scurs.... having to cut them because they are curling into the goats skull or breaking off and bleeding profusely. They also seem more dangerous to the other goats than a full set of horns, with some random sharp little nub sticking out. But, that is really just a pitch for proper horn removal. 

I have heard that if a dog gets in your pen and wants to kill your goats, it will, regardless of horns. While I hope to never discover the truth of that, I have watched my boys with dogs and I am usually trying to prevent them from doing the killing. However, they are heavy horned, not those little 12inch spikes that goats castrated at a proper age usually have. Also, they are thick at the base from late castration, so a good solid brick of a forehead. One good crack on the head, and few dogs that survive it would come back for more. Predators that are accustomed to the various species of horned prey we have out here would turn right around when the first goat tilted, since the risk far outweighs the benefit. 

With that said, I always hear...always, that you never hear someone regret getting a goat dis-budded, but you often hear them regret leaving a goat horned. I believe from a responsibility standpoint and a marketing standpoint you are much better off with properly dis-budded goats. A good friend of mine just had the "scoop" method done on some of his, and it sounded super slick. Probably pricier than an iron, but from the sound of his success, well worth it. I have no concept of buyers or anything, but I would pay more for a good well socialized goat with it's horns removed that way than pay less and deal with scurs forever. 

That's my opinion on the subject

Gregg


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## ali pearson

I have two horned, two hornless, and my vote is hornless. It's just one less chance of injuy, less fencing problems, more space in the camper shell for their heads.


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## Bent Barrow

Thanks for your reply. I'm tornâ€”I know these guys should get disbudded today (they're four day old Saanen wethers and their horn buds are already big) but I want to market them as pack goats and am afraid of hurting their chances for a serious packing home. I guess I'll wait through the week and have them disbudded Friday (they'll be seven days old). I generally have it done at the vet by the hot iron method but with gas anesthesia and local and systemic pain relievers. The DIY method offends my principles and the one time I did do it I ended up with awful scurs.


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## Bob Jones

I am a buyer. But Rex says that I am so different I don't count. Well he actually used another word than 'different'. 

I have bought babies from amateur breeders and from a pro and have gotten grown experienced animals from an outfitter.

The outfitter was getting rid of horned goats for the safety of their novice clientele. In two years I have not been butted or injured by the goats. I voted for horned just because I like the look of them. 

A goat with horns is cool. Without them they are the Jar Jar Binks of the goat world.


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## vigilguy

What is a Jar Jar Bink?


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## Cazz

> Jar Jar Binks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jar Jar Binks is a fictional character from the Star Wars prequel trilogy


Looks horrible from the google images. :lol: 
We have only non-horned goats, but we have had horned goats before and four of the goats we have at the moment were all horned. We found horns a danger and a nuisance, because we are very close and personal with our goats, leaning over them to give them their grain, putting their hay in their racks with them several inches from our face, etc. One of our does with horns, although very well behaved and gentle with them, always knew people were the boss and was a lovely girl, hit my brother pulling her head our of her hay several times, and could have done a lot worse than a very big, painful bruise on the face and one time upper arm. We have some friends with horned goats, and their two Toggenburg does had massive horns, looked like anntenae. After we had successfully taken the horns off all of the goats we had bought with horns (around 1/4 of the goats we had bought had horns) they were so sick of their does thrashing all the smaller does and being a real danger to their kids (one of their does was actually killed by hanging herself in a tree by her horns and breaking her neack, possibly with help from the other does butting her) that they allowed us to ring their horns. They are totally different goats now, and we are minding them both at the moment and it is just great to let the doe who loves rubbing her head on people rub on us, with no worry of these hors hitting you in the face or belly. (which happened accidently several times when we used to mind them)
I think horns like nice, but are always a danger with people around, whether they seem like it or not. I much prefer a goat without horns, they are just as capable, happy to work and useful far more useful in some ways because you can use them around children or baby goat kids, old people, in small areas, at fetes and shows in crowds of people without worrying of accidents, and they are often a lot better behaved with other goats because they know they don't have weapons. (some goats wonâ€™t take advantage of the fact that they have horns, but that case would be very rare and you canâ€™t really blame them â€" if we were in their place and had horns, I at least would use them!)
I could give many, many more examples of pros for no horns or cons for horns, although of course there are other factors involved. 
When one of our dogs used to chase the goats, it was always the horned ones she went for â€" probably because they were the ones who tried to boss her around the rest of the time. When a dog is chasing a goat, (going for itâ€™s throat, not just in fun) itâ€™s horns arenâ€™t that much difference, as a goats will normally run in fright whether or not it has horns.
I know horns are beautiful, and often give a goat more character, but they donâ€™t make it a better pack prospect and as has been said, more people regret leaving horns than disbudding. It is better to take the horns away at the start and never have problems, than leave them and later wish you had taken them off when they accidentally (or purposefully) injure a person or animal. Of course, you can take the horns off with rings, but that is another matter in itself and although it has worked very well for us, it may not work as well for others and some people donâ€™t like the idea at all either.
In short, I think the pros of horns are far outweighed, at least with close human handling almost guaranteed for the rest of their lives. I know many others disagree with me, but in my experience I much prefer a disbudded or dehorned goat. A properly disbudded or dehorned goat doesnâ€™t grow scurs, and if not quite properly done, scurs can normally be quite easily managed. Three of our four wethers have scurs, but all are tiny (between less than Â½ inch to, occasionally, 1 inch long) and we havenâ€™t had problems with them. We have all our kids disbudded by a friend, it is quick and simple â€" we drive to his place, I pick up the kid our of the trailer, take it over to the bench thing, he disbuds both sides (and if it is a buck kid, does both sides twice) and I put the kid back in the trailer to go home. No fuss, the kids get a bottle or some of one, (or if they are on their mums, they have a drink from their mum who we bring along) and there is no more worry. I do have to keep an eye on their heads about two weeks/a month later and make sure there are not little scurs, and when there have been recently with a different disbudding iron, we take them back and get them burnt a second time. Luckily for us, we donâ€™t have to pay anything except fuel to get there and an occasional cake.  I am more experienced now as well, and will say â€œI think that one needs a bit more burntâ€ when it hasnâ€™t been enough burnt.
Cheers,
Cazz


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## vigilguy

Bob Jones said:


> A goat with horns is cool. Without them they are the Jar Jar Binks of the goat world.


I google it and got a good chuckle!

Having horned goats for 5 years, now switching to disbudded goats. Tired of the bashing at the feeder, catching legs in between the horns, raking the tree bark at the camp sites, etc.

I figure if they need protection on the trail from unleashed agressive dogs, that's what my .380 S & W Bodyguard is for.

We did the scooping and then the burning, and it worked fine on two of the three triplets, buckling #2 going back for a re-scoop due to a 1/2 inch long scur. The other two took fine. The kids were sedated during the process.


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## Bent Barrow

Regarding scurs, I had one wether with three inch, gnarly scurs that kept breaking loose and bleeding. When he was two, I finally spoke to the vet about it and it turns out you CAN redisbud at that age! He was disbudded again at the vet clinic under anesthesia for a modest cost and his scurs never grew back. It was far, far easier than an actual dehorning and I don't regret having him disbudded and then disbudded again.


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## JulietS

Cazz said:


> Jar Jar Binks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jar Jar Binks is a fictional character from the Star Wars prequel trilogy
> 
> 
> 
> Looks horrible from the google images. :lol:
> We have only non-horned goats, but we have had horned goats before and four of the goats we have at the moment were all horned. We found horns a danger and a nuisance, because we are very close and personal with our goats, leaning over them to give them their grain, putting their hay in their racks with them several inches from our face, etc. One of our does with horns, although very well behaved and gentle with them, always knew people were the boss and was a lovely girl, hit my brother pulling her head our of her hay several times, and could have done a lot worse than a very big, painful bruise on the face and one time upper arm. We have some friends with horned goats, and their two Toggenburg does had massive horns, looked like anntenae. After we had successfully taken the horns off all of the goats we had bought with horns (around 1/4 of the goats we had bought had horns) they were so sick of their does thrashing all the smaller does and being a real danger to their kids (one of their does was actually killed by hanging herself in a tree by her horns and breaking her neack, possibly with help from the other does butting her) that they allowed us to ring their horns. They are totally different goats now, and we are minding them both at the moment and it is just great to let the doe who loves rubbing her head on people rub on us, with no worry of these hors hitting you in the face or belly. (which happened accidently several times when we used to mind them)
> I think horns like nice, but are always a danger with people around, whether they seem like it or not. I much prefer a goat without horns, they are just as capable, happy to work and useful far more useful in some ways because you can use them around children or baby goat kids, old people, in small areas, at fetes and shows in crowds of people without worrying of accidents, and they are often a lot better behaved with other goats because they know they don't have weapons. (some goats wonâ€™t take advantage of the fact that they have horns, but that case would be very rare and you canâ€™t really blame them â€" if we were in their place and had horns, I at least would use them!)
> I could give many, many more examples of pros for no horns or cons for horns, although of course there are other factors involved.
> When one of our dogs used to chase the goats, it was always the horned ones she went for â€" probably because they were the ones who tried to boss her around the rest of the time. When a dog is chasing a goat, (going for itâ€™s throat, not just in fun) itâ€™s horns arenâ€™t that much difference, as a goats will normally run in fright whether or not it has horns.
> I know horns are beautiful, and often give a goat more character, but they donâ€™t make it a better pack prospect and as has been said, more people regret leaving horns than disbudding. It is better to take the horns away at the start and never have problems, than leave them and later wish you had taken them off when they accidentally (or purposefully) injure a person or animal. Of course, you can take the horns off with rings, but that is another matter in itself and although it has worked very well for us, it may not work as well for others and some people donâ€™t like the idea at all either.
> In short, I think the pros of horns are far outweighed, at least with close human handling almost guaranteed for the rest of their lives. I know many others disagree with me, but in my experience I much prefer a disbudded or dehorned goat. A properly disbudded or dehorned goat doesnâ€™t grow scurs, and if not quite properly done, scurs can normally be quite easily managed. Three of our four wethers have scurs, but all are tiny (between less than Â½ inch to, occasionally, 1 inch long) and we havenâ€™t had problems with them. We have all our kids disbudded by a friend, it is quick and simple â€" we drive to his place, I pick up the kid our of the trailer, take it over to the bench thing, he disbuds both sides (and if it is a buck kid, does both sides twice) and I put the kid back in the trailer to go home. No fuss, the kids get a bottle or some of one, (or if they are on their mums, they have a drink from their mum who we bring along) and there is no more worry. I do have to keep an eye on their heads about two weeks/a month later and make sure there are not little scurs, and when there have been recently with a different disbudding iron, we take them back and get them burnt a second time. Luckily for us, we donâ€™t have to pay anything except fuel to get there and an occasional cake.  I am more experienced now as well, and will say â€œI think that one needs a bit more burntâ€ when it hasnâ€™t been enough burnt.
> Cheers,
> Cazz
Click to expand...

Thank you Cazz for sharing your thoughts and opinion, it was very interesting for me to read it! Wonderful post!


download music from youtube
youtube to mp3


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## Jake Levi

I much prefer goats with horns, havent had problems with them bashing the furniture/pens etc, and I think it is because I am pretty dominant myself havent had any problems that way with them, if I did it'd be topsy turvey time for them and they know it. 

I hadnt thought much about castrating at an older age to get heavier horn base, generally what age would be better to leave them to before cutting them? 6 mos? yearlings? 

I do agree that it should be all or none with horns.


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## sweetgoatmama

THis is the first year I have had no call for horned goats, not one. When you sell 30-40 goats a year that usually translates into about 1/3 horned at least, but not this time. Fortunately I have disbudded everyone so far.
My hiking partner has all horned so we go with about half and half. Everyone does fine together.


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## Jake Levi

Hi Carolyn

I would have been interested in a couple, but hoping for next year, and hopefully will be closer for shipping or picking up. 

Re: to a firearm for woods etc, I have a .380 for carrying around but in the woods its a 1911 .45 ACP, have met too many bears while doing stream surveys in years gone by, most they moved away, a couple I moved away, but there was one I didnt know if I was going to be able to, I dont want to make a goat buffet for them so I will carry.


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## imported_Brighteyes

My husband and I are packgoat beginners. We purchased two Oberhasli's that we have had such fun with. Because we have several dogs and kids here we chose the hornless route; although we struggled with it awhile. Our goats were disbudded early but grew scurs. We had them disbudded again and the scurs reterned; sharp little points. We then took them to the vet who, with a local anesthetic, dug them out. It was awful and I would never ever want to do that again. It's been a week and they are sore but fine now. It's done and we all lived through it but it was heartbreaking...


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## Bwana Ken

My wife and I just got our first goats this past winter and, like many first-timers, we struggled with the horns/no horns debate. We ultimately opted to go with horns, with the understanding that we would have to be especially careful when working around their heads to prevent accidents. So far so good.

I was interested in a couple of the comments made in earlier posts. One had to do with waiting until the goats were older (didn't say how much older) before castrating. We just got ours done last week when they turned 4 months old. Their horns were already looking quite impressive and their foreheads were noticeably thick and heavy. I wonder how much more developed their horns would have become if we'd waited another month or two before castrating? (we opted to do it now because they were really starting to smell "goaty").

Another comment had to do with goats using their horns to defend against dogs. We have 3 dogs and the goats are so used to them that they pretty much ignore them most of the time, but sometimes when we are out on a walk and one of the dogs gets too close to the goats one of them will lower his head and butt the dog out of the way. The dogs seem pretty intimidated by the goats! (for the record, we have a pit bull puppy, a newfoundland, and a red healer).

It so happens that we live in a neighborhood where many of the neighbors let their dogs run loose so there are often 2 or 3 of them hanging around. The goats mostly ignore them too, but several times I've witnessed our young kid goats chasing or butting these strange dogs too! While I'm happy that our goats don't immediately flee in fright at the sight of a dog (and risk provoking a "prey response" in the dog) I worry that their casual attitude towards a potential predator might put them at risk should a genuinely aggressive dog try to attack them (note: the goats are never left out unsupervised: they are kept in a dog proof fenced area when we're at work, and either my wife or I are always close at hand when they are let out to graze).


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## fivemoremiles

I had a goat with horns she would use them on my sheep. she did some damage to one. then i found her cought in the fence nearly dead and that was enough for me. I took two green Cheerios (bands for castrating) and put them on her horns and they came off about three months later.
I have No horns on any of my goats.


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## sanhestar

Bwana Ken said:


> I wonder how much more developed their horns would have become if we'd waited another month or two before castrating? (we opted to do it now because they were really starting to smell "goaty").












Horn development after castration at different ages:

top left: castrated with 2 years, now 4 years old
top right, down left: castrated with 1,5 years
down right in front: castrated with 6 months but now 8 years old

As you can see, the wether that has been castrated with 2 years has already longer horns than the 8 year old wether that has been castrated much younger.

Should you wonder about the arrows pointing - I've posted these pictures on another forum where we were discussing how/if/what one could detect from the growth lines in the horns. I found that all of my late castrated wethers have this "knob" that more or less corresponds to the age (and length of horn) when puberty set in.


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## sanhestar

and if you look closely here - this could be a marker of the castration: 3 of these wethers (top right, below right and left) have been castrated approx. 3 months and the one in the foto top left 1,5 years before I took these pictures. If you take the horn growth into consideration, castration could explain why all of them have this mark.


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## Jake Levi

Thanks for the photos, they really make the point.

Do you notice much of a difference in temperament in the late castrated buck, or are they about the same?

Topic split by admin viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1135


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## imported_GoatGirl96

We own goats for milk. All of our does are de-horned. The weathers that we have for work are all de-horned for safety reasons. We have heard to many horror stories of injuries to people as well as goats. 

Although horns are beautiful, to us it is not worth the risk. If you are worried about protection get a dog or a donkey.


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## Jake Levi

Donkeys are not all of that handy for pack trips, goats are more economical. Goats pretty much feed themselves on browse, no grain to have to pack with goats. 

Here in NE Wa besides an occasional lone wolf we have coyotes, mtn lions, and we are on the SW range of a two state grizzly bear area. 

So when I am out with my guys the horns are something to at least let a predator think about it , while I am unholstering my Service .45. 

While on a trail break the nearest available set of horns makes a good place to hang a hat too.


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## Cache Goats

I am pretty new to goats but I started with goats that didn't have horns and now I only have the ones left that do have them. I like the horns for a couple of reasons. I like that the goats are not affraid to stand up for their selves with horns. Often I hike with my black lab and if he makes the mistake of coming up to the trail behind the goats, the dehorned goats would run. If he comes up behind the horned goats they stop and stand their ground. My dog would never hurt them but I was really interested in the difference between the two. The other thing I like is no disbudding. Often I had the horns grow back after disbudding and I had to have it done again. The down side is that you have to be more careful around them, and my family is intimitated. My family is getting used to them, and I decided horns is worth the trade off. 

PS I don't like having both together because my disbudded goats reminded me of an old kicked dog. They always get the boot.


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## willy the kid

My guy's are poled so I didn't have mutch choice but it works out well with my daughters thay are five and seven so horns would be eye level

But I love horns and thay look awesome and someday I will have horned goats


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## Bob Jones

GoatGirl96 said:


> We have heard too many horror stories of injuries to people as well as goats.


Ok. I have been around for a couple years and I have yet to hear a horror story of a goat, horned or not.

The only death attributed to a goat was an old preacher who was found with the goat lead around his neck. Even then it was only the one who found him that said the goat did it, as the autopsy said he had a heart attack.

I have been accidentally stepped on, and had fingers pinched, and even been knocked once or twice while a goat was responding to another goat in close proximity. None of these 'injuries' required medical attention, and certainly were much less than a similar event with a horse, for instance.

Does anyone actually have first hand knowledge of a serious injury to a person from a pack goat? (Not just some nearly wild Billy).


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## Cazz

I have heard of people hit in the eyes, and with four broken ribs on an adult man from a pet buck with horns who got annoyed at him. (a disbudded goat could not have broken his ribs, since the buck did it with his horns) We have had lots of bruises, some nasty scrapes, and very nearly horns in our eyes on many occasions with our tame horned goats, because we are veyr close and personal with our goats - all of our tame does, bucks and wethers are effectively pets, so they follow us around, love pats, and we don't keep any sort of distance from them.
I have also heard of many more broken bones and serious sprains from horns, on top of many bruises and other injuries. We ourselves haven't gotten much more serious than heavy bruising and knocks in the eye sockets, plus scrapes and cuts. The ones I have heard of aren't neccesarily pack goats, mostly pets or just tame goats.
We have around half a dozen horned and half a dozen who had horns but they were ringed, in addition to the two dozen or so disbudded goats. The ones with horns without rings only have them because they are fleece goats, who are show quality but are meant to have horns for the show ring, plus they are little and not really tame (several are outright wild) and not being milked so not too much worry about the horns - they still are very mean often to the other goats, including each other, but since they are a group they normally stick together a bit away from the rest of the goats. (since we've got so many, they're normally spread over 100m or so, even at night)
However, every horned goat we've got has done something with their horns at least once to make we want to take them off. I have yet to meet a horned goat who is really well-behaved around weaker/vunerable goats, and doesn't use their horns rather recklessly when in a hurry.
Cheers,
Cazz


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## Bob Jones

A lot of pet goats are actually encouraged to butt. There is a guy here who goes out every morning with a football helmet on to challenge the goat. (No Rex, not me ;-) )

I am hoping to eliminate the urban legends and get to document-able cases of serious injury by pack goats. 

I think they are rare and that our animals get tagged with the reputation of other types of goats. Heck, Monty Python had a goat tearing at a man's neck.... oh, no that was a rabbit. ;-)

Even when a goat is reared up to come down full force in a butt, they don't kick like a deer will. (That's another story) and a single hand on a horn will guide him safely to the ground without injury to either party.

The strength in their necks is for a downward strike, not an upward goring like an ox. 

I've never heard of a serious bite by a goat, unlike the alpaca that tore it's owners calf off his leg a couple years ago in Magna.


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## ryorkies

> half a dozen who had horns but they were ringed


What is ringed?


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## Cazz

ryorkies, I ring our horned goats' horns with the same rings used to castrate goats in order to remove the horns. There are a lot of people who are against the idea (some having tried it, many/most never having tried it) because they believe it to be cruel or dangerous, but it has worked extremely well for us, (even with our first few, where it was a bit trial and error with only a suggestion to put rings on their horns to guide us) and I have since 'disbudded'/dehorned heaps of goats with rings, many going on to new homes where the new owners would not have bought them with horns, and who love them without the horns. I have written several (or rather, many) huge posts on ringing horns, as I have rather perfected the technique, having used it a lot, and many people are interested. (however some people may tell you I wrote so much because I am a loud mouth  )
Anyway, feel free to look the posts up, or I can post links, or PM me if you'd like any more information.

As I have said elsewhere, I have found it very safe and effective, only problem is when someone doesn't do it right (or has a sensitive goat and soft heart  ) and then goes telling everyone else it doesn't work.  I currently have three goats with rings on their horns (one of them has only one horn) and another two that I have been looking after for a friend and had ringed their horns just recently went home (one lost both her horns a year or so ago, as did a third who went home a few days before, and the other now has one horn) plus we have another three who used to have horns and just sold a fourth- who I had taken the horns off - last week. I have taken the horns off friends goats' for them since her bigger horned goats were very mean to the others, and had given them bad limps and bruises before. Those goats are now very gentle and sweet, and the friends (surprising even to me) think that ringing is more humane than disbudding and prefer for them or me to ring their goats horns than for me to disbud them! (and no, most of their goats who have had their horns ringed didn't even notice  )
Before I finish talking your ear off, I'll finish up.  
As above, feel free to look up my posts or PM me, or reply with any questions. 
Just another note Rex... The friends above also suspect some of their goats killed another one, who had gotten caught by her horns in a tree, and another person I know has a horned goat for sale since it has killed at least one other of her goats  . 
Cheers,
Cazz


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## Cazz

www.packgoatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=585 is one of the first ones I posted in, (it was actually the one topic which made me join this forum in the first place) there were many replies posted before me so you can see both sides of the 'debate' and I have also posted heaps of photos on there. I now have heaps more photos, (plus more experience  ) having done heaps more goats, so I can post more in a new topic if you like.
Cheers,
Cazz


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## Bob Jones

Someone said that autopsies show that debudding the goat with heat actually damages part of the brain. They didn't mention which brain, that of the goat or the debudder. ;-)

I would think that ringing would be better. Unless of course you had a goat that needed something like a lobotomy.


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## Cazz

Hi Bob,
I'm not sure if that is normal disbudding, but I do know that disbudding for too long at too high a temperature can have a very bad effect and some people have had tiny kids die after being disbudding.  A relative of mine had triplet kids from a miniature doe disbudded very young, and the smallest died. Whish, I think, is the same with anything - you've got to be careful not to over-do it.
With the disbudder's brain, my family will tell you I have a damaged brain anyway, which makes me talk and laugh a lot, but maybe that's just because they want someone to pick on. :lol: After watching/holding many kids while they are being disbudded, you get calm and experienced, so you aren't traumatized after disbudding your own.  

I would recommend disbudding over ringing, for a few reasons.

One: with disbudding, the kid is very small and is perfectly fine straight after. (I disbud my own and other people's goat kids, and they are all fine anyway) With ringing, the goat is often adult, has a much better memory, and has a sore head for the obvious reason that a decent-sized part of their anatomy has been removed.

Two: with disbudding, it is all over in minutes. With ringing, the horns can take two months to come off, and then another few days until is is properly scabbed over.

Three: with disbudding, it is a lot easier to ensure no scurs afterwards. With ringing, incorrect procedures can see large scurs growing. However, as with disbudding, it can be redone - it's just if the owner doesn't, you can end up with big unsightly scurs in a badly-ringed goat.

Four: with disbudding, the goat can always fight fine afterwards. With rings, the goat often is wary of fighting for a while (which is actually a huge plus for mean goats) and often has to learn new techniques of fighting. Although, as I mentioned, this is a huge positive for mean or dangerous goats, if you have a sweet goat who is just a little bossy with her horns and easily able to damage someone, after her horns have come off, she may be very low in rank for up to several months. If you have plenty of space and/or no other mean goats, this is fine, but it is something to be considered.

So, from my point of view, I would normally rather disbud, but ringing is very helpful and useful, and I really wish some mean disbudded goats had horns so I could ring them and they would learn not to be mean anymore. :roll: 

Cheers,
Cazz


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## Taffy

*Re: De-horning*

Cazz,

You mentioned in one of your posts that you sedate the goat when you ring it. What do you use?


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## Cazz

Hi Taffy,
We have actually never sedated our goats, but I found on one website they used a local anaesthetic just below the horns, because they actually cut the skin and placed the ring into the slit. That would actually be more effective, since it would get all of the horn below the surface, but we don't have any anaesthetic, and from what I've found, can't get it from the vet's or anywhere. (they would have to come out and do it, which would cost a fortune in travel and time, and don't know if they would be willing to anyway without doing the whole 'operation' themselves - not that they even know how to do it I don't think)

I think I bookmarked the page on another computer, so no idea where it is.  It was a Boer stud in the USA, it could be the one someone posted a link to a few days ago, but I can't remember sorry! :? 
I heave heard of some people using herbs for pain killer, (like when they castrate them) but we haven't had need to and if the goat is upset, we just feed them yummy stuff until the soreness goes away. Some goats don't seem to feel anything, don't even notice, and just walk off and start eating. Some will just shake their heads a bit, and some will actually be pretty sore, and they are the ones we make sure we've got nice hay/branches/grain for. The longest I've had any goat sore/upset for was less than an hour, and afterwards they are fine again.
Cheers,
Cazz


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## ryorkies

I kinda want to try the ringing on Sully. He has a scur that
grows. Then gets broke off at least once a year. Blood every where. So thought maybe I could ring it to completely remove it. 

Julio does like to use his horns on Sully. I may want to ring him. He is 2 years old. Once I get a elastorator(sp)
I will be wanting the links to your posts.


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## Cazz

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=585 
Is one. 
Cheers,
Cazz


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## ryorkies

I like Julios horns. But they are sharp.
I was just reading about tipping them.
(snipping off the end and filing)
Then you still have the horns but they
are not as sharp. 
Does anyone know anything about this
method?


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## Cazz

Yes, we've gotten several goats who have been 'tipped'. The main thing to be careful of is not cuttig too far - even a big horn won't have much 'bloodless' length at the end, so you can't take much off. Some people file the horns down regularly from birth, and the goat ends up with way smaller and very blunt horns, or you can use hoof-trimmers to cut off a bit from the ends and then file the ends when the goat is already big. Taking a little at a time you will be able to see when you are getting close to the blood in the same way as when trimming white hooves - you can see the pink through the horn.
It works fine if you are trying to avert accidental injury from the sharpness, but the goats we have gotten with 'tipped' horns were just as mean (picking the other goats up with their horns under the other's belly and throwing them through the air) so you still need to be careful.
Good luck and have fun.  
Cheers,
Cazz


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## TDG-Farms

Chiming in a little late but figured Id do it anyways. As a registered dairy goat owner/breeder, you are required to dis bud your animals in order to show them Which makes total sense. But even if that were not so, we would still dis bud them. We have roughly 50-100 goats (depending upon the time of year) and it would be a blood bath if they were not all dis budded. 

Goat herds maintain a hierarchy through a very strict pecking order. And that order is every changing with younger does moving up in the ranks. Fights are rarely far and are more often then not, 1 vs 4 or 6 or more. With a few giving cheap shots while the main combatants are focused on each other. So, for herd live, horns are an absolute NO. 

Another reason for no horns, at least the first year (as mentioned above) fencing. Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence and its amazing how well horns slide through a fence but require you to cut the fence to get them out. And if you are not there to save the goat, they often kill themselves trying to free themselves.

Breeding bucks should never have horns. Also mentioned above, when in rut, a buck can and will turn on anyone at anytime. A sweet calm passive buck in the off season, can be a raging jerk while in rut.

NOW, when applying this question to packers, I prefer them (so far). Granted, a special pen and feeder needs to be used in our case as we use rail type feeders that allow the does to move left to right. Much like a wood horse fence. But once the horns are large enough not to get caught in say field fencing or cattle / combo panels, life is a bit easier.

Reason why I prefer them. 
1. A goat KNOWS when it has horns. For this reason alone, a goat would be more willing to defend itself, even if that defense maybe pointless in regards to most predators. A goats natural reaction to a predator is to run. Even a wiener dog can set a herd of goats running and fleeing for their lives! 
2. The possible advantages of the horns working as radiators. Horns are hollow at the core. If you de horn a larger animal, you will actually be able to see straight down the hole and out the nose. There is a artery that supplies blood to the horns. So makes sense that as they breath in, the horns could dissipate some heat.
3. And as mentioned above, they look cool. Gives a pack goat mo jo 

For those who have issues with horns on their goats, I am not sure if this would work with older animals, but all my prospects are trained to sit and enjoy their horns being touched. As I am scratching a cheek or a shoulder blade or under the chin (preferably the spot that makes them freeze) , I am with the other hand petting, rubbing and scratching around and on the horn itself. I also use this time to gently rub their eyes. After maybe a weeks time, they will allow me to do anything to their horns and even their eyes. I can grab them by a horn to move them aside with no ill effect because they relate the touching of the horn with affection. Now, this is not to say they will not use their horns catch a piece of clothes or poke you in the butt to get your attention, just that when I chose to touch them, they are totally passive about it.
On a side note, its ok to spoil your goat, but if you allow it to behave badly, even just a few time, thats all it takes to turn a good goat bad. They same way goats test fences, they test their people. You must be like a fence they can not escape through.


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## Rex

Dave said:


> We have roughly 50-100 goats (depending upon the time of year) and it would be a blood bath if they were not all dis budded.
> 
> Goat herds maintain a hierarchy through a very strict pecking order. And that order is every changing with younger does moving up in the ranks. Fights are rarely far and are more often then not, 1 vs 4 or 6 or more. With a few giving cheap shots while the main combatants are focused on each other. So, for herd live, horns are an absolute NO.
> 
> Another reason for no horns, at least the first year (as mentioned above) fencing. Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence and its amazing how well horns slide through a fence but require you to cut the fence to get them out. And if you are not there to save the goat, they often kill themselves trying to free themselves.
> 
> Breeding bucks should never have horns. Also mentioned above, when in rut, a buck can and will turn on anyone at anytime. A sweet calm passive buck in the off season, can be a raging jerk while in rut.


I have to respectfully disagree with you Dave. We have had 50 goats at a time all with horns and never had a blood bath. In fact it was a rare even to have a scratch on any of the goats.

All of our kids had horns and in the beginning they get their heads stuck. We have raised hundreds of kids with horns and none ever died from getting its head stuck. We have never had to cut a fence to get them out. The trick is to pull their head through far enough to tip their nost back against their neck at which point you can slide their head back through the fence. It was something we did for a few weeks each year when their horns were a certain size. Many of them even figured out how to get their own heads out of the fence. I'm sure someone has lost a goat to getting its head stuck but it isn't a common thing.

We bred goats for over a decade with horned bucks and de-horned does. There was never ever a problem. Our bucks were treated like any of our goats. If they misbehaved, no matter the time of the year, they were dealt with accordingly and responded positively.

I do agree that does should be disbudded. A horn to the udder can easily cause mastitus or other problem. Easily avoided with all disbugged does penned seperately from the boys with horns.


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## TDG-Farms

Sounds like you have had a good run of it Rex. In my experience, it never turned out well. I started in goats working on a commercial farm with 300+ head and it was nearly a daily event, butcher kids getting their heads stuck in the fences during that curtain time when the horns are the right size. As we didnt kid out all at the same time, this would last for 4-6 months. Now I will say, Nubians were totally different in regards to fighting. They just dont. Saanens are fairly passive as well. But the Alpines and Lamanchas were pretty much always battling. During the hot months, they wait till the sun sets and then start up.

Here on my farm, most days sees a testing of rank by a couple of goats. Butcher kids will pick up other kids with their horns with a quick upward thrust. We house 2 breeding bucks per pen and they two like to test each other. So here at least, horns would be a very bad idea. Say, 

Rex, what kinda acreage you running em on and what kinda landscape? Might be more a case of boredom here the accusal temperament. S.E. Washington is kinda a desert and the only people who get water rights are the vineyards and large produce farmers. So our lil piece of heaven is flat and dry during the summer months.


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## Rex

Yes housing would make a big difference. We have them on about 5 acres of pasture so they can scatter out a bit. It stays green with plenty of browse so they aren't packed in the barn which is where most of the trouble happens. Now a days we only have 4 goats in there so they really have some elbow room.


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## TDG-Farms

Oh how I would love a green pasture. We too have 5 acres. We were going to water regardless of the no water rights as many small farmers do, but we pretty much missed water with our well. At 500 feet deep we get 10-12 and the pump guy thought it best to restrick us to 6 gallons a min so not to run it dry... going to change that soon as we are planning to plant at least 1 maybe 2 acres in a buffalo grass mix and just water that area once a week. If we are just able to keep a 75 foot row of grass between the house and the pasture to keep the dust down, that would be good with us. But you're correct in that the trouble starts in the pen area. We lock up our goats every night in a pen that is 6 combo panels long and 4 wide. They have shelters at t he back of the run that we use for a back wall between the pen and the pasture, a 12' x 20' loafing area in the barn and 2, 8'x24' leans toos off each side of the main barn. So the girls are more then content to chillax in this area. They do head out into the pasture several times a day but with spring over, what little green there was out there is gone.


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## TOU

I voted hornless but LOVE the looks and thoughts of horned.



GoatTracksMagazine said:


> We have both horned and de-horned goats, and have not noticed any difference with their dealing with heat.
> 
> As to protecting themselves, I think horned goats would have an edge on inexperienced dogs, but with experienced dogs, or predators, they usually attack the head and rear, so the horns aren't much defense when they get teamed up on. When 2 dogs got into our pasture a year ago they killed one horned goat, and badly injured both horned and de-horned goats. I suspect this has to do with there being two dogs, and one of the dogs had killed before, and also that our horned goats were trying to defend the little de-horned fellers.
> 
> I think the key to having horned goats is to be mindful of eye safety. Even though ours are extremely tame, accidents do happen. Steve has a new beauty mark from an incident with our horned Alpine "Tuffy" when Steve accidentally stepped on Tuffy's back leg while trying to take a pannier off. Just as Tuffy reflexively reared his head back, Steve was reaching over to grab the pannier and got a horn in his cheek, just below his eye. It was definitely Steve's fault, and Tuffy stopped as soon as he realized he had hit Steve. Steve should have gotten stitches, but was 9 miles from the trail head at the start of a 7-day trip. He had a closed eye for 2 days, and a shiner for 3 weeks, but that was much better than losing his eye, even though I think he'd look cool as a pirate .
> 
> We tell people going with us around the goats to wear adequate eye protection, especially when they're saddling or packing up the goats. It's also a good idea to wear eye protection when feeding them or giving them treats.
> 
> We love the looks of our horned goats and have never had any other incident. And our de-horned goats mix in well with them (although they're not the "top dogs").
> 
> Shannon
> Goat Tracks Magazine


Your thoughts almost exactly echo one of my pack goat "mentors" (15 years experienced.) Your doc experience with the horned defending the hornless mirrors what happened to him as well, he tells me that the horned were the most chewed up. He has all but eliminated horned from his herd with so many up & coming grandchildren. His horned are not to hard on his hornless but...they are out numbered 7:1 in favor of the hornless.

I realize your post is from a some time ago...but you mentioned that you have a mixed herd; _*I am curious for those of you with mixed herds what are your ratios of horned to hornless? How well are they getting along?*_ I suspect if the ratios are severely in favor of horned it leaves the hornless constantly "looking over the shoulder" as one of my pack goat "mentors tells me. If it is in favor of the hornless, than those are the herds that have less issues. Looking forward to the responses...



gsbswf said:


> With that said, I always hear...always, that you never hear someone regret getting a goat dis-budded, but you often hear them regret leaving a goat horned.


That seems to be evident from many on this thread. Both of my goat packing "mentors" have told me if they were starting over they would go hornless. It seems that its pretty tough to change once you are committed one way or the other...or at least it can complicate an existing dynamic.



Cazz said:


> _*they are just as capable, happy to work and useful far more useful in some ways*_ because you can use them around children or baby goat kids, old people, in small areas, at fetes and shows in crowds of people without worrying of accidents, and they are often a lot better behaved with other goats because they know they don't have weapons. _*(some goats won't take advantage of the fact that they have horns, but that case would be very rare and you can't really blame them - if we were in their place and had horns, I at least would use them!)*_


This thoughts make a great deal of sense to me, thx for your comments. (everyone's actually) Read your post on ringing too, very interesting.

LOVE the beauty of horns but we have decided to go hornless with starting our herd.

Thx,

TOU


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## The Goat Whisperer

I prefer horns but I have both that I pack with the horns help keep them cooler on the hot summer hikes and they can defend them self’s against praetors and they look cool.


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## lileomom

*de-horned*

we have little kids but I like the look of some of the horned goats


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## dsturgiss

I love the look of the horns but for me at this point in life (with young kids) I prefer no horns. 


Sent from my iPhone using Goat Forum


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## kmarar

I prefer horned goats, polled is fine too. I really don't like goats being disbudded or dehorned because the handlers don't want to deal with their animals without mutilating them. There are some cases where horns do need to be removed though.


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## snubbie

God gave them horns so they have a purpose. I don't have to understand what all that purpose entails. So I left them on my three wethers. 

Well, I also think they look regal and cool, AND... 

I believe it will give people(strangers) pause before they approach my goats. I think those big horns are a bit unnerving to the inexperienced and people aren't as quick to approach and start touching and messing. Here in NC packgoats are about nonexistent so when I hike I get LOTS of attention. I have no trouble on the trails with people asking questions, taking pictures etc. but I prefer people not assume it's okay for them to walk up and start touching, petting, or otherwise without first asking. My guys aren't quite 1 yo yet and their horns can look a little intimidating. I don't mind strangers being a little apprehensive and keeping their distance.

I drill into my daughter's head over and over, "keep your face away from the horns". She has been poked a time or two, as have I (Not in the face).
You just have to respect the horns and learn to avoid them.

Frankly, if a goat determines to hurt you or head butts you, I believe it matters little whether he has horns or not. He can split your skull, break your arm or leg, or badly bruise your hip or other areas, regardless whether he has horns or not.
An aggressive goat will not be tolerated even a little. His attitude will be corrected or else he is going to be "weeded out". Horns have nothing to do with that.

So my point is, the tip of the horn is the greatest threat and yes, there is a danger of simple accidents happening. But I believe they can mostly be avoided with experience. Around inexperienced kids or others? I'll probably stick a tennis ball or something over the tips if any other children interact with them.


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## kmarar

I agree with snubbie. As a 4Her in Michigan I am appalled that kids are being taught they should only be handling dehorned or disbud goats. You aren't even allowed to compete unless they are hornless which is ridiculous. Why are we teaching kids that we should only handle animals once they have been mutilated.


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## Trickyroo

I have both. Im apprehensive to disbudd again , but most likely will , but i don't want to hold for it. I don't even want to be there.
One of my yearling does has horns and I'm thinking about rehoming her. Im not liking the way she can and will intimidate the others when she wants to. They sure know they have horns and a edge up on the others. Somedays I'm positive she is leaving and other days not so much. But i do know i don't want any other does with horns right now.
If i had a bigger place i would keep the horned ones together away from the disbudded ones. I feel safer that way. I have a wether with horns and he's the most docile thing and never a problem. The doe with horns is the herd leaders daughter , wether that has anything to do with her growing "I'm the boss" attitude or its just that she knows she has horns and can intimidate the others , or that she always hangs with her mom and learns from her , idk. But it was a learning experience for sure.
I have a couple bucklings with horns right now as well.


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## Catahoula

I know this is an older post and I would like to add my 2 cents. I have never liked the looks of horned goats. They look devilish...with horns and goat-tees. I have hornless for that reason. 
I understand there are precautions with dealing with horned goats and one must respect the horns...which I do. 
When my goats were kids, they loved to chase one another and they loved to run up the little hill and play. One day I was below them on the hill pulling weeds while they were playing. One of them jump up and lost his footing. He tumble down and next thing I knew, he head met my head. He was fine and I was too...after I got over the pain. I was so glad he didn't have his horns. I love my goats and love hugging them. They are my pets. I would be so bad about watching their horns. It is for my own safety that they don't have horns...never mind young kids! 
I know it is all personal preference. There is not right or wrong answers.


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## fivemoremiles

remember that this is a post on goat packing. packing a goat is a unique use of a goat and many times we have different needs. most pack goats are horned with the belief that the horns help the goat control its heat when we are packing. horned pack goats also have an advantage when we run in to a dog on the trail. 
we goat packers also have to balance the needs of our goats on the trail and the problems that come up with horned goats when the goats are home.

every ones situation is different on the home front so the horned or not discussion goes on.
in short there is no correct answer for every one. so the decision you make on horns for your pack goat string is the correct one.


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## toth boer goats

fivemoremiles said:


> remember that this is a post on goat packing. packing a goat is a unique use of a goat and many times we have different needs. most pack goats are horned with the belief that the horns help the goat control its heat when we are packing. horned pack goats also have an advantage when we run in to a dog on the trail.
> we goat packers also have to balance the needs of our goats on the trail and the problems that come up with horned goats when the goats are home.
> 
> every ones situation is different on the home front so the horned or not discussion goes on.
> in short there is no correct answer for every one. so the decision you make on horns for your pack goat string is the correct one.


Thank you for this statement, fivemoremiles. :hi5:

Some members will only read the title and not the original OP's statement of which it is for "Pack goats horned or not".

It is a real old post too.

I know the subject can bring a lot of different opinions of all kinds. So don't let it go ff topic: Please, lets keep this on topic, for "pack goats horns or none horns", this is not for all goats. ;-)


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## fivemoremiles

this post is very old. originally it was posted on a forum dedicated to packing goats a few years ago the forum merged with the goat spot forum. 
I miss the old forum because goat packers are few and far between. there was a comradery that I don't find here.
that said this forum is great. I have learned lots from it

Thanks to all the moderators


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## goathiker

Sooo, you haven't found the new packers site yet?


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## fivemoremiles

No I have not found it. I have not looked for one though
I will be looking now

Found IT


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## snubbie

Catahoula said:


> I have never liked the looks of horned goats. They look devilish...with horns and goat-tees. I have hornless for that reason.


Wow. Don't even know how to respond to that. "Devilish"? Personally, I think they look like goats with horns. The way their Creator designed them. But that's just me.

Horned/dehorned...its a personal choice. My guys are young pack goats and as stated above, I feel the horns serve a useful purpose. They are getting quite impressive as they approach 2 years old.


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## MCHLMRTN

sweetgoatmama said:


> I have been knocked down and fairly seriously hurt by three of her goats, or was it two and he got two cracks at me? :evil: Can't remember, she has gotten a lot tougher with them since these incidents.
> I, on the other hand, have gotten a shock collar. :twisted:


Personally...I'd have gone for the goats having shock collars rather than myself. But maybe she doesnt wamt you around her goats anymore. Lol.


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## crazydazy55

For pack or working goats it is recommended to use horned goats because goats regulate their body temperature by running blood through their horns to cool off. If you are going on a difficult hike with goats not having horns could make it harder for them.


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## goathiker

In my experience, waddles do much more to keep goats cool than horns do. 
I also find that my disbudded goats are welcome many more places than horned goats are...


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