# Critique this Boer buckling please



## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

Hes a little small for 6 months at 70lbs( me trying to hold him on the bathroom scale) but he was a bottle baby. He would not cooperate for pictures but I can try again if needed. Hes a short stocky little guy with grand sire of Show Me Boers Portfollio and great grand sires of Agnew's Collateral Damage and Hardyred Mahogany on paternal side. Gatwood farms Turbo on maternal side. Gatwood uses SA semen so that's as far as I can get.



























It doesn't seem like hes grown much since he was 3 1/2 months old though. Only a 20lb gain in 2 1/2 months


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Critique this buckling please*

well he is handsome -- but i dont know about the weight gain thing. will let those who raise boers give you input


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

hmmm..Im no expert by any means, but he could use a little more width between his front legs. Has he been wormed at all? The reason I ask is cause he has a chunky pot belley there but it might be from browse?


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

He was last wormed in October. He had just gotten his feed before the pictures but hes always got a chunky belly. I haven't done a recent fecal on him but I can do one tomorrow afternoon just to make sure.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I dont want to offend here but I probably wouldnt use him as a buck. 

While I admire his muscle ('chunkiness') and his bucky head, he seems to lack length and stretch. He does also appear a little small for his age. 

Probably good for a terminal type buck (breeding for meat) but I'm not so sure about using him to breed seedstock.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

No offense taken. I want honest opinions here. I will probably keep him for a little while longer since he is our baby and see if he gets better with age. IF he doesn't improve I will sell him. Maybe hes just a slow grower.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I agree he is probably a slow grower - and that in itself is a negative for me. Being a meat breed I want animals that grow quickly - so that when I am producing animals for slaughter I can turn them off quickly and get that money as soon as possible, feeding them for the shortest period of time.


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## badnewsboers (May 9, 2008)

Well he is a stocky boy and has a pretty head on him.

One thing I noticed is he does look like he was stunted. That pot belly and flat horns are tell tale signs. Definitely pull a fecal on him.

Its hard to tell much about him since he's scrunching up in those pictures. He seems like his length and width wouldn't be too bad if would stand right.

I'd just give him some more time to see if his growth will pick up.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

There is a reason behind the flat horns, He was disbudded badly. The procedure did not take so his horns grew flat. I have mixed up the fecal solution so it will be ready tomorrow. I think my neighbor will help me with the pictures since he wouldn't cooperate with DH. My neighbor has shown goats for many years so he knows what hes doing. 

Keep the opinions coming and please explain what your commenting on so I can understand what your seeing.


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## SDK (Jun 26, 2008)

he is short bodied and his rump is kinda short..

he is def stunted though.. maybe copper, bose, vit a, vit e, and b12??

i would give him more time.. 

i do agree that he could be a great terminal sire


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

OK If I keep him as a terminal buck should I get a Registered doe to breed him to or will unregistered do for this?


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

OK (drawing in breath) If he doesnt have the width up front AND behind to begin with, he's not gonna get it later.
Sure he might grow into a fine young buck, but in my limited knowledge he doesnt have it. He may have the genetics to pass on, but people want a powerful muscular buck with width depth & length. And first impressions are everything. Not promises of genetics.
He IS standing a little funny...his front assembly looks out of whack in the last two pics. :shades:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

unreg'd is fine


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

OK, I have not decided what I will do with him as of yet but I have a few more questions regarding breeding him. IF I get a registered doe is it possible he can pass on the genetics he should have without being stunted?


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## badnewsboers (May 9, 2008)

Him being stunted is just a result of environment. It is still possible for him to produce good kids if his genetic combination has worked for the breeder before.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

OK then I may try it both ways. Get a good registered doe for genetics trial and a non registered doe for meat trial.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thats not a bad idea! :greengrin:


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

What should be improved in this little guy. I don't know if you could imagine he wasn't stunted furthermore can stunted goats be reversed?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> OK (drawing in breath) If he doesnt have the width up front AND behind to begin with, he's not gonna get it later.
> Sure he might grow into a fine young buck, but in my limited knowledge he doesnt have it. He may have the genetics to pass on, but people want a powerful muscular buck with width depth & length. And first impressions are everything. Not promises of genetics.
> He IS standing a little funny...his front assembly looks out of whack in the last two pics.


 You know in my opinion...he looks like he may be taking a pee... is why he is standing funny? 
As for the growth...bottle babies are always small and will never achieve maximum growth....That buck looks pretty darn good in my opinion....for being a bottle baby.... :shades: 
As for his genetics....GENETICS is were the champions come from.....and I would give this buck a chance to breed some... fine does ....you may be surprised on what he may produce.... :shrug: 
He won't be as big ,but he looks like he has the muscling and his butt area looks big to me....He has one of his front legs back so I can't tell if his is wider than what he looks.....He may be longer than you think if he would stand correctly...LOL....
If you buy a FB boer doe get one that has more of what your little buck may be lacking...the doe may put it onto the offspring.....
Sorry but excellent genetics is where champions come from.....even if the buck or doe is stunted because of being a bottle fed kid.....or caused by an illness...ect... will not stop all potential in that animal.....I'd give that buck more credit than that..... :shades:

What kinds of wormers did you use? 
For his gut if he isn't wormy..
Give him baking soda free choice ,, put some down his throat... he may have a little bloating...


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

He does have some highly prized lines in his pedigree and hes a great little buck. Hes standing funny because he thinks hes in rut. I can't tell you how many pictures I couldn't post because he was showing "it" off. I kept telling him to sheath it so I could get a decent picture. He also didn't like the leash and DH wasn't helping matters.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

For the wormer I used Ivomec 1% injectable given orally as it was recommended by Diamond M Boers farm which is close to me. I have Quest and may use it if he shows worms tomorrow.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

You also need a wormer that kills tapes like Valbezen....He may have other types of worms that Ivomac does not kill if you are only using the one wormer ....I to, use and like Ivomac


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

I agree toth, if he has good genetics he may still be a good choice for a stud buck.

However, I do disagree with you regarding bottle babies never growing out to their full potential (sorry! please still be my friend). Although it might be the case with this buck, I dont believe being a bottle baby is any excuse for poor growth.

Can you guess which of these animals was bottle fed? All roughly the same age in the pics.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

If you bottle raise correctly you shouldnt see any difference in bottle vs dam fed.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

He was bottle fed according to the schedule on Fiasco Farms website. Received and is still receiving cocci prevention.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

No offense taken...LOL I am still your friend... :hug: .
what is your correct way to bottle feed? every bottle baby I've seen has been small.. :shrug: 

The 1st one no way Jose

2nd one... I can't tell she is laying down

3rd one ....could be a bottle fed

4th one ......could be a bottle fed


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## AlaskaBoers (May 7, 2008)

who has had good results with valbezen? i need to change, i dont think rumatel is working nay on mine.

i have a stunted goat also, his brother is huge, around 200lbs at two years, but my boy kinda just stopped, but his kids grow fine.


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## badnewsboers (May 9, 2008)

I don't bother with valbazen because it doesn't work well in my area. I use Equimax and Quest Plus for tapes.


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

:hug: pam

All the goats are bottle fed except the last one in show stance. 

Yep, truly that first doe was bottle fed, from day 3. Her mum rejected her. Thats my girl Calamity - she's high enough % to be considered purebred but I dont have enough info on her mum to get papers for her. Wish I could, she's a really good doe. 

I have always wondered why people say bottle babies never do well, and why people cant seem to raise them properly (not having a go at you personally AT ALL crocee). 

Here are just a few things off the top of my head that I have found CRUCIAL to success:

- Use a top quality milk replacer - the one I use is 28% protein 21% fat or fresh goats milk
- REGULAR feedings - and I mean regular, on the dot, same time every day
- Cleanliness - I rinse the bottles after each feed and wash thoroughly once a day - no need to sterilise though
- Give as much milk as can be handled, but dont overfeed
- Provide top quality hard feed and fresh water from day one. Calf pellets with 20% protein level and good quality cereal (wheat or oat) hay available along with water 24/7. 
- Bottle feed, not bucket (though this is debatable by some)
- Weigh the animal every week to monitor progress
- Each animal I raise gets probiotics in the bottle for the first three days
- Wean at 10kg as long as the animal is eating pellets

I am sort of known as the bottle feeder around here, people turn up on my doorstep with orphaned lambs. I raised 7 ewe lambs and a ram lamb this year.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> I don't bother with valbazen because it doesn't work well in my area. I use Equimax and Quest Plus for tapes.


What dosage did you use with the valbezen....it works wonders here....for us... :shrug:


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

OK maybe this is where I went wrong.
He was fed the whole milk replacement formula as I was told that the powdered replacements were bad for them.
His feedings were regular within 30 minutes
The bowl was cleaned after each feeding- he wouldn't take a bottle at this time
He received probiotics with each feeding
I offered meat goat pellets and grass hay at 1 month
He received 20 ozs at each feeding, he would have drank a gallon but I didn't want to risk over feeding.

Maybe this is why he is small. He eats like a full grown buck now.

I am keeping this in my notes for any kids I have to bottle feed in the future. Thanks very much for providing it.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> All the goats are bottle fed except the last one in show stance.
> 
> Yep, truly that first doe was bottle fed, from day 3. Her mum rejected her. Thats my girl Calamity - she's high enough % to be considered purebred but I dont have enough info on her mum to get papers for her. Wish I could, she's a really good doe.


 Oh crap.. :doh: ...yep now ya know why everyone says it ...about bottle fed kids... The 1st doe is beautiful Oh I want her....  What are her lines :shocked:

Thank you keren, we all appreciate the info ...now we all ,if needed ,,,have the info, for nicer growth....kids.. :hug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Crocee, the main thing I would change from what you did, would be to introduce the solid feed at a much earlier age. My kids (both dam raised and bottle fed) drink water from a bucket at 2 to 3 days old, and will nibble pellets and hay by 1 wk. If you introduce it early, it makes all the difference because by 1 month old, they are shoveling it in and usually I can wean by 6 to 7 weeks, some I have weaned at 4 wks.

ha ha toth you are gonna love this.

Calamity's sire is Franklin Park Assassin ... he is sired by none other than Farmworld Apache and out of a Farmworld doe by Warlord. Here's his pedigree:

http://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-bin/i ... 5&9=535B52

He is also the sire of Charlotte, who is in the last picture at Canberra show. We just sold him off to a friend to start her stud up, but have retained his full brother Ammunition (personally I think Assassin is the better buck, but the boss makes the ultimate decisions!)

I REALLY wish I could get her reg'd as purebred, but her mother came out of a doe we bought pg, the lady wasnt 100% sure who the sire was of the as yet unborn kids, because it was an oops breeding where the fence was down and several bucks got through the fence. She was breeding up so they were all FB bucks but didnt know which buck had got which doe.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh wow...Awesome pedigree...maybe,, do DNA ....then you will know who's the daddy..LOL .........she is so worth getting registered as a FB .....


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

The lady has since moved on and there is really no way to trace Calamity's doe line enough to have her reg'd. I know, she is something isnt she? IF they ever open up the upgrade register again (doubtful) I can reg her as a foundation, but I'm not sure if its worth it really, 5th cross is considered pure. 

Our registry distinguishes between purebred and fullblood, she could only ever be purebred. But still, it would let me show her which I would love to do. 

I almost sold her the other day ... but then I got thinking and I almost started crying, I was like no! she is such a beautiful doe and she is part of the family, so I decided she is NOT for sale :greengrin:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh man...... I'm glad you didn't sell her,she is a beauty...I am sorry the lady disappeared, but oh well ,she is a keeper either way....
has she had any kids?


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

She kidded this year at 13 mths old, twin bucks which started out lovely but turned into ethiopians, but she herself got really sick, she had just a small piece of retained afterbirth which really knocked her around. So she gets another chance next year. She looks a whole lot better now she has recovered, she looked like death warmed up before


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am sorry they were sick....I will pray ...she gives you a pretty little healthy doeling and she will be realty as well.. next time..ray:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

thanks :greengrin:


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

Keren,
Thank you for your wonderful posts. Now I know who I can turn to if I have a real problem I can't solve. From now on I will be doing things a bit different.
Toth and badnewsboers,
Thanks for helping me read his pedigree, and understanding his potential.
This little guy was my very first goat ever. I had never raised anything other than a dog or cat. It was a big learning experience and I am just happy he survived my bumbling. This guy was a struggling 10 day old baby when I got him. I will take your advice with any future kids I may have to feed. I really wish you lived closer. I could learn so much. Maybe IF I ever go visit my niece I will look you up. She has just moved to Australia.

BTW: Your doe has a very impressive pedigree. Hopefully I will not have this problem as I am only planning on 1 buck at a time. Now I just need to find a great doe for him.

Thanks everyone for your help with this little guy.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

your very welcome....crocee....That is what we are here for.. :hug: . and we to....(the pro's) ....LOL .....have also.....learned something new... that will help.... because you asked....and.... we thank you to.. :hi5: . with your questions.... this can make a big difference.....when... and if needed..  see .........we All ....make an excellent team.... :grouphug:


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## keren (Oct 26, 2008)

Crocee, you are welcome at my house ANY time, and that goes for the rest of you guys on TGS too. 

You did your best with this guy - and that is what matters - you kept him alive and that is what counts :thumb: I sort of fell into Boers myself with a couple of bottle babies that were given to me. 

Keep us updated on this little guy and let us know when you find a girl for him!


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## rgbdab (Nov 26, 2007)

I have bottle raised 2 boer bucklings that were orphaned 4 years ago and they are both bigger than any of my other 26 boers. They are tall and just big goats. They were raised on milk replacer (I hadn't found this site back then) and there were some problems with one of the boys having diarrhea so after I found this site and saw that most people were against milk replacers I figured that I wouldn't use it again if the need arose. SO now I have 2 bottle babies again and I am just using whole cow's milk and they are doing great, no diarrhea but I wonder if they will grow as well. Hmm, I might start mixing some replacer in the cow's milk to be sure they are getting enough protein and fat for good growth. Denise


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Crocee, you are welcome at my house ANY time, and that goes for the rest of you guys on TGS too.


 Awwwwww thanks... :greengrin:


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## PiccoloGoat (Sep 10, 2008)

Ok, I'm driivng to your house then keren xD

Joking. :wink:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

your kitties are cute....


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

keren said:


> Crocee, you are welcome at my house ANY time, and that goes for the rest of you guys on TGS too.
> 
> You did your best with this guy - and that is what matters - you kept him alive and that is what counts :thumb: I sort of fell into Boers myself with a couple of bottle babies that were given to me.
> 
> Keep us updated on this little guy and let us know when you find a girl for him!


Thank you. I will keep everyone updated on him and his future.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

if you got him at 10 days what happened with him in those days can easily effect his growth and it might not have anything to do with what you did or didnt do.

I tried the whole milk route with not so good results. So it is replacer or goats milk from now on for my kiddos. I am not a big fan of cows milk (though I like the taste) as my stomach likes to give me fits at times after consuming it.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

StaceyRoop said:


> if you got him at 10 days what happened with him in those days can easily effect his growth and it might not have anything to do with what you did or didnt do.
> 
> I tried the whole milk route with not so good results. So it is replacer or goats milk from now on for my kiddos. I am not a big fan of cows milk (though I like the taste) as my stomach likes to give me fits at times after consuming it.


Thanks Stacey, when this little guy was born, he came out sideways with his back presenting. He was 1 of trips so he was already a little small(don't know the birth order). They couldn't get him to take a bottle but did syringe colostrum into him, it was only a few ounces though. He was fed from a bowl after that as it was they only way they said they could get him to feed. He was given straight cows milk for those 9 previous days. They didn't have time nor inclination to raise a bottle baby so he was offered to me for free. He cost me the gas to go get him. He has been DH's baby ever since. DH is very protective of this little guy and watches him like a hawk. I wonder what he'll think when hes full grown and in stinky rut.

MIlk does a number on my stomach also. Hopefully I will like and can drink goats milk.


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## Victoria (Dec 20, 2008)

I agree that his heart girth should be wider, his body lookd nice and meaty, but he could be longer. Is it just the way he is standing??


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

I think its the way hes standing. I will get some more pictures as soon as I can get someone more knowledgeable to help me hold him in the correct positions.


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## nancy d (Oct 5, 2007)

Denise, You could add buttermilk and evap (not sweetened condensed) to it for extra fat & calories. I wouldnt bother with adding the replacer. 
Put most of a gallon whole milk in a jar, add a quart buttermilk and can of evap, then top it off with more milk. I also add probiotic powder to it but it usually sinks to the bottom of the bottle. :wink:


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## LoveMyGoats (Jan 3, 2009)

We had a the same (almost) experience with our first boer goats. We bought 2 babies for a 4H project. Because we were so green, we did not realize that the lady and advice she was giving were insane. Needless to say, these 2 never reached their full potential. We let them breed thinking they would produce a small goat that my youngest daughter could show at the county fair. Well, they produced a tank. He had caught him mom at 4 months in hight and had weined at 60 lbs. Our 4H extension agent is very excited about our prospects at this year's fair. So, my vote is to let him breed and see what he produces. You can always sell him and move up in bucks after that.


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## crocee (Jul 25, 2008)

Thank you. I am looking for a registered doe now. The pedigree on this guy is really good on his dads side. His moms side is a little weak so the doe needs to be known. DiamondD may have something for me. IF I even considered selling this guy someone would have to take me in. I would no longer have a home if I sold DH's baby.


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