# Need help with hoof question....



## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

We bought another doe late yesterday evening who is about to kid this month. She's a gorgeous young doe, but I have concerns about her hooves. The breeder said her hooves have been neglected the past 5 months she's been pregnant in the pasture, but these hooves just don't look right to me. They remind me of when I've seen foundered horses, but dont know if goats can founder? The did trim them some last night but said they wanted to wait until she kidded to trim them more so she doesn't get sore before she kids, and they will come trim after she kids.
But.....it just doesn't look right to me? She's really down in the back on the front left hoof especially. She does not limp at all and runs just fine, but I don't want a doe with permanent hoof issues. So please help! Is this just hoof overgrowth that can be corrected or does this look like more?
These are the front hooves. The back still are overgrown as well but they do not turn up like this.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yes.. it does look like founder ...
Is her hoof warm/hot...?

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/artic ... goats.html


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## SkyesRanch (Nov 11, 2010)

It looks to me like she has weak soles. Which is causing the hoof wall to virtually collapse. (I have a horse farrier in the family) If this was a horse there is nothing you can do but stay on top of her hoof trimming. She was probably either born with bad hooves or its the result of neglect. I don't know, that my opinion.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Weak pasterns will cause a hoof to grow as though it has been neglected, it's also not always on all feet of the same goat. It could be one rear or one front or both front and both rear....or worse yet, all 4. 

It is also hereditary and isn't always the cause of feed managment.

Trim the hoof in timely manner as well as the heel, from the looks of her though..no amount of trimming will correct this, she'll always have a fallen pastern


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you guys. That's kind of what I was afraid of.  Her hooves are not hot to the touch, so I don't think this was really recent. If it can be corrected to where she will stand upright, I have my previous horse farrier who I can have work with her. That's IF. :hair: 
I guess my next question would be, would she still be okay to keep as a breeding doe? I have no plans to show her but would want her offspring to be able to be show quality. She'd bred to a nice buck and I'm excited about what we might get. :shrug: A single kid could be sold for what I paid for her.
However, I'm sure the breeder would allow me to bring her back and put my money towards another doe that will come available after she weans her kids in a couple months if I make the call soon. What would you do?
Edited to say she does look a little down in the hind as well to where the is a slight up angle of the toe, but not to the extent of the front. She's just a two year old and a ff.


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## freedomstarfarm (Mar 25, 2011)

As Liz says it can be hereditary. I personally wouldn't breed any animals with issues that can be carried on in their offspring. Myself; I would take her back.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

If bred to a buck that has absolutely no faults in his feet or any in his background, the prospective kids should have close to perfect feet, be wary though that it is genetic and even though the kids look fine at birth and up to a year or 2 old, the issue may still pop up as they age.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you, Liz. I just got off the phone with the breeder and neither of her parents have hoof issues. I know the sire of her soon due kids has no hoof issues (saw him myself).
DH wants to wait until she kids and let the breeder try the corrective trimming. If she doesn't straighten up we will sell her when the kids are weaned. The breeder did offer to take her back but even one baby means she was free and as long as she doesn't pass it on.... (and our buckling, who she would be bred back to, has no feet issues back several generations). The breeder also offered to buy her back with the kids if she does't straighten up with the corrective trimming later, so I respect that.
I REALLY appreciate you guys. :grouphug: It lets me know I was thinking the right thing and not just paranoid! That's always good to know. So, we'll hope for the best and see what happens. I will post later pics of any progress, though I'm with you guys that I'm not too optimistic it can be corrected.


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## sparks879 (Oct 17, 2007)

just because the parents arnt showing weak pasturns does not mean they are not carrying the genes for weak pasturns. When you breed to recessive genes together, even ones that arnt showing in either parents the resulting offspring can show it. It may be just neglected trimmings. I would trim her every two weeks, even if its just a little bit. get her on some good quality hay and some BOSS. You can even add som biotin and flax seed, both of which are good for hooves. This may or may not help the problem. It could be genetics or it could be lack of proper care.


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## ()relics (Dec 25, 2010)

Its hard to see how the doe is standing in relation to her hoof. It definitely looks like she is trying to carry her weight on the outside and that makes her inside hoof grow strangely. I would maybe lean towards the positive and think you may be able to trim her into better shape. I would very carefully check her for hoof rot/scald. Sometimes a sore foot can cause a goat to reposition their weight to relieve the pain...soon enough they have adopted a new way to stand and their structure can start to change. I would seperate her until hoof rot/scald chance is COMPLETELY eliminated. I agree that after she kids would be a good time to start to slowly trim her back into shape. You can make a small wet spot where she is fed giving her hooves a chance to soften then maybe a quick halter walk on some concrete somewhere as soon as she is done eating. She definitely has issues because looking at her feet you might think she is 6-7 years old.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you. :thumb: The breeder admitted she hasn't had her feet trimmed in 5 months because she's been out in the pasture after she was bred so I know not enough hoof care is at least part of it. Sorry for such a bad picture. I was walking around the pasture with her and she stopped our old bonfire site so I quickly got a picture. Her feet both face forward well, but she was avoiding being caught. :laugh: Now that she's back in her stall I will try to get some better pics of her feet.
No concrete within a mile of here, but we are going to put gravel down outside the barn where they all come in to eat.
Her hooves do feel softer than goats hooves typically feel and I have a nice horse rasp/horse clippers in addition to the regular goat clippers. I looked at all four feet really well and no signs of any rot, decay, wall seperation, etc. They look very healthy considering...
I sure hope it isn't genetic. I would much prefer foundering or lack of proper foot care, as bad as that sounds. At least her kids would be okay that way.
I never knew goats could founder like a horse (thanks for the website, Pam, good article!) but it's good to know..note to self!


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

5 months isn't long enough to cause that kind of hoof issue. I think it's due to the hoof overgrowing and then a bad trim job continuously and not enough. If you try not to look at her hooves, you'll see her pasterns are near normal. The sole may have overgrown and then was never trimmed down and kept growing, while only the toes were trimmed. That's what i'm seeing, but founder or bad genetics shouldn't be ruled out at this point. 

If you can get a photo of the bottom of her hoof, that would help. Also, how many owners has this doe gone through? Or is the breeder the previous owner?


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Going out now to get pictures, and will get some of the bottoms of her front feet, too! She was not bred by the breeder I got her from. They purchased her from the breeder at some point (unknown how old she was when they purchased her) but her registration paperwork was issued August of last year, so 8 months ago. Two previous owners before us. She will be three in October. Her heels do look VERY thick.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2011)

Looks like she has been on wet pasture alot to me.I had a buck who did this.His hooves would be so soft you could cut them with a butter knife.When they stay in wet pasture or wet hay and stand on them all the time it makes them soft and they do not stand upright on them.You should be able to trim them into shape.I would not wait until she kids though.Try to correct them slowly one a week or so.

5 months is a lot for a boer who is being fed good quality hay or grain,and has been on soft ground.

Its kinda like the whole hoof grows at the same time and the heel does not wear down.They start standing on the end of it instead of the bottom.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

When I looked closer the heel was extremely long. I took the clippers and went to work and took off about an inch of heel! I couldn't believe what difference that alone made in the way she stands on it already. It's going to take some more work but maybe, just maybe. Here's before and after clipping of the left front leg (I also tackled the right front). The back two aren't bad. I wasn't even close to hitting "pink" and could have gone more, but I'm sure those tendons are stretched out and need to slowly go back.
There's a ray of hope! :leap:


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2011)

Yeah thats much better,was the hoof real soft feeling and easy to cut?


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Extremely soft, like butter, just like you said. :wink: I could have just used a hoof knife.


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## KW Farms (Jun 21, 2008)

MUCH better Aimee! Good work! Yep, that heel was completely overgrown where the toe was being cut down. It's looks like you'll be able to correct it...it'll just take some time to get it growing normally.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

:grouphug: You guys are awesome. There aren't any books out there that could teach me half as much as I learn here. Until last night I took it for granted that goats just have normal hooves. Now I've learned a lot can go wrong.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2011)

You might not want to give her grain for awhile and keep her on dry ground or concrete to help slow the growth and toughen the hoof.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you, Steve. That's going to be the balancing act: not feeding her a lot of high protein/hot pasture while at the same time she will be kidding and lactating within the next couple of weeks. :hair: Our pasture is high and dry, though, with a gentle slope to the neighbor's property. :wink: She's in her dry stall at night.
The breeder I bought her from shows boers and they feed them all extremely well, so I know she's had a very high protein diet. She hasn't missed a single meal!  The breeder mentioned that on the phone, that the high protein they feed causes more rapid than normal hoof growth.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I am so happy... it is straightening out...great job........ :thumb:


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2011)

I figured something like that,goats were not meant to eat such high protein diets.

I hope you can get her in shape soon.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you, Pam! I'm very relieved (or at least hopeful). I really like this girl and had dreamed of future kids from her....
I hope I can get her looking good soon, too. That can't feel very good walking around that way.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

> Thank you, Pam! I'm very relieved (or at least hopeful).


 You are very Welcome... :thumb: good luck with her and sometime.. We'd like to see the rest of her... :wink: :laugh:


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm sorry! Here's the rest of her. :laugh: Everything else seems to be okay. :wink:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

She is a very nice Doe....now I see why ...you like her.... :thumb: :wink:


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

:hug: Thank you, she's a mess. Already gotten head stuck twice in the cattle panels and escaped from her stall after unlatching the gate. :roll: She's going to keep me really busy.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

It is good to see that only the heel was overgrown....and not a fault with her pasterns! Great job on getting her going in the right direction!


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## HoosierShadow (Apr 20, 2010)

Oh Aimee, she is gorgeous! Congrats on such a beautiful girl! I'm sure with staying on top of her feet she's going to be fine 
Something I might suggest...if you can ever get some large rocks, make like a walkway for them...goats love to stand on things, especially rocks, and it can help toughen up their feet.
We have been having a lot of rain, so the ground can be mushy for days. We have large rocks going around the side of the barn <from cement steps we broke into pieces>. 
The wetness is taking a toll on their feet, and I think having the rocks has saved them from getting worse since they are always climbing on them when around the barn.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you everyone! There are no large rocks around here (plenty of pecans and peaches but no rocks), but I want to get either gravel or even cinder blocks to place around the entrance to the barn so they have to walk over it to go in and out at least. Gravel might be my best bet, placed in front of the barn where I feed them. We've talked about finding some fairly decent size rocks somewhere and then cementing them together for a type of mini mountain for them, but my girls are too lazy to climb anything. The kids love the doghouses and fallen branches in the pasture but these heifers don't even try.  
Any suggestions on how often I should trim her heel away to try leveling it out? I don't want to trim too much too soon, but also don't want to let it go on any longer than it needs to. It already looks so much better but obviously still a long way to go.


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## Steve (Mar 12, 2011)

She is a nice looking doe,and from what you said she is making the goat world proud too.They are a smart animal but why in the world do they insist they can get their head back out of a tiny space?

You could make a mountain of old asphalt shingles to wear their feet some,those things are worse than 40 grit sandpaper.Mine like climbing on the doghouse too and it has shingle roof on it.

I would check her/trim her once a week.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you and I love the shingle idea! I can build some sort of a ramp going in and out of the barn and another going from the pasture into the feeding area in front of the barn! :hi5: Excellent and SO much easier that trying to find multi-ton rocks to haul here. With what I've taken off so far I can kind of see where I need to trim in the future to get her back to somewhat normal. Thank you for the help!


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## Devin (Feb 6, 2011)

you did a great job trimming! She already looks tons better! Keep up with it, standing weird can cause all kinds of problems with joints and back. I say from here trim once a week and slowely get them where they need to go. Great job!


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thank you! The main problem is that I am terrified of trimming feet. :shocked: My grandma trimmed her poodle's toenails too short when I was very young and it spurted blood on the kitchen floor so I've been traumatized. Seriously, I take my dogs to the vet and have them trim their toenails! I have also been paying someone to trim my goat's hooves. :ROFL: If I didn't feel so sorry for this girl, there's NO WAY I would have touched her feet. I guess maybe this will get me over my fear, but it's slow going because I trim like a small sliver and then another. I have to stare at it for awhile to make extra sure it's not pink and then go again. :help: This is going to take awhile so slow will not be a problem! Now you can understand my deep desire to not have a doe with chronic hoof issues. ray:


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## Devin (Feb 6, 2011)

LOL! believe it or not I do know how you feel! When I was younger I was afraid to even pick my horses feet becasue I was afraid to hurt them! Now I am their trimmer! I researched and researched and finally got brave enough to begin. You can do this! Going slow is not bad, it is wise. A little bit at a time is all it takes.


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

That does make me feel better. I feel totally ridiculous being afraid of trimming toenails/hooves and I was a paramedic for 14 years, starting IV's, doing chest decompressions, intubating, defibrillating, extricating people from vehicle crashes...but scared of hooves. :shrug: :ROFL: 
I do have someone experienced coming the week after next to trim what I can't get between now and then so I don't feel so much pressure. I have learned to trim the rest of my herd once they were trimmed up nicely. The upkeep is easy. :thumbup:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I know how you feel too...  
every once in a while... I snip a little to close and oh... I feel so bad.... they limp a few days and then back to being OK again... It's the idea that ..I did that to them.... :sigh:


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## Perfect7 (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm glad they go back to being okay again, though. I'm afraid of causing permanent lameness more than anything, but I'm sure I'd have to take off a lot more than what I do with my snip snip. Last night I got out the horse rasp and leveled the bottom a little better, not taking much more off really but just leveling it. She stands up straighter and then goes down a bit in the back, then will come back up. It's like she's trying to get used to a new hoof under her but it doesn't look so deformed anymore! Just a slight upturn to the toe. I figure I'll give her a little rasp each evening until I can get some rocks or shingles down for them. Oh yeah, I'll be Aimee Scissorhands before too long! :dance:


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