# Baby Udders - What to look for (??)



## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

OK...every year we 'plan' to keep a doeling or two and, so far, we have not. That doesn't mean we haven't kicked ourselves (twice) for selling the doelings but, I believe that speaks more of my inexperience than their overall quality. While our girls come from pretty good dairy lines (best we could afford at the time)...their udders leave *a lot* to be desired in comparison with the pics of the 'ideal udder' on ADGA. After they are milked out, they look like 'scrotum' udders...LOL.

All kidding aside tho'...
I am really trying to improve our herd conformation by breeding to bucks from great dairy and "udder" lines so, if we don't keep anyone, we're at least selling some good quality animals that (hopefully) will not be a detriment to the breed. This past spring was our 2nd freshening and, I'm thinking that we will prob'ly start breeding them every other year, after this year, because I do not want them to have issues with their udders down the road, as they get older.

So...here's my question(s)...
When you are evaluating your doelings as 'keepers'...what do you look for in the udder department..? Is there a way to tell (on a baby) if she will have a good/great udder (as an adult) at such a young age..? We do not show but, I would like to have (and produce) goats that ARE show-quality or, at the very least, have excellent dairy/udder quality that will hold up for several years of breeding/milking.

Any advice, thoughts, insight you might have would be greatly appreciated!!!!!!!! : )


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## Nigerian dwarf goat (Sep 25, 2017)

HMNS said:


> When you are evaluating your doelings as 'keepers'...what do you look for in the udder department..?


\
First thing i look at is teat structure, does she have 2 nice symmetrical teats. Are there any extras, any that are smaller than normal, larger than normal? Anything out of the ordinary.

Now, when you start to milk mom, do you like her udder and teats? Is she easy to milk out, how much milk does she produce, are her teat orifices too small, and make milking hard? or are they too big and she is prone to mastitis? Do the babies drink from her with ease?

Same with the buck. What is his dams and granddams udder like? Are they high, tight, good fore and rear attachments? How do you think they will look in 6 years from now? Go look at his teats. Are they a nice size, are they symmetrical? Also look at his scrotum attachments? Will he produce quality breeding bucks?

Those are a few things i think about, plus conformation, personality, etc.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

Teats...pretty straightforward. 

*Teats:* We have one doe with great teats and orifices and one with 'pencil-teats' but, she milks pretty well so, 'OK' orifices. Neither doe has had any issues with mastitis and their babies don't have any problems nursing or getting enough milk.
*Udders* leave much to be desired on both does and that is what I would like to improve...like...A LOT!!! 
*Milk Production* = MEH!! Tho' they are from decent lines, neither seems to have inherited the 'magic'. Neither produces enough to earn a Dairy Star. 
Regarding the bucks that we've used (so far)...
We do not own any bucks and are super fortunate to know a couple of different people that are willing to do driveway breedings. Both farms have some really nice bucks. As I am choosing which buck to breed with which doe, I research the buck's lines as thoroughly as I can and I especially pay close attention to the ones that have */+ bucks in their lines and, even more, those that have Milk Production awards and Best Udder awards in their dam lines.

Shoot...have someone in the driveway...will pick this up later. (sorry)


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## NigerianDwarfOwner707 (May 17, 2018)

@MorningStarFarm


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Teat structure is number one.

Looking at Dam's udder and placement, tells a lot too of what the doeling may end up with. 
However too, some end up not as good.

We cannot judge or know, until they first freshen in reality. 
It is always a guess, when they are so young.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

I looked at all my doelings teat size and placement while picking my keepers this year. I kept ones with larger teats, though it’s so hard to tell when they’re a couple of days old. I also tried to pick the ones who were most structurally correct from what I could tell. Of course I also kept my daughter’s favorite, then also the one who was all bottle fed as I can’t bring myself to sell her. This year we’re retaining at least 5 doelings. I have two does who should kid in October (not pregnancy tested but I’m pretty sure they settled) and depending on how the babies come out I plan on keeping another doeling or two. 

Fleece’s doeling that we retained from last year freshened this summer and he definitely improved on her dam’s udder. It’s not the largest udder but shes got a strong medial, good teat placement, and is easy to hand milk. I’m excited to see how she freshens for a second time next year. I’ve not been milking her after the first few weeks, but her soon to be wether will be weaned soon and I’ll start milking her again. We’re retaining two of Fleece’s doelings from this year, and he’s gone on to be a herd sire up in Cleveland. I was going to retain a third but ended up selling her to a friend and she’ll be living a great life in Puerto Rico.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

so...I was hoping I could flip them over and be able to tell if their ligaments and attachments are strong, etc. Granted, I know we're only looking at a teeny-tiny baby udder but...was hoping to be able to identify some/any signs of strength or weakness (to determine if we want to retain them) instead of having to wait until they freshen.........

(I know...looking for that crystal ball...LOL)


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

NigerianDwarfOwner707 said:


> @MorningStarFarm


I'm not sure this worked. @Morning Star Farm


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

Evaluating junior does in an attempt to see what kind of udder they will develop is really a guessing game. You never know what you will end up with. As others have said though, look for straight, single teats. That's about all you can tell there and even then, there is no guarantee that they will be straight when the doe freshens and fills up with milk, but generally speaking, a doe with straight teats would be more likely to freshen straight. 
A more accurate, but still not perfect way, is to start by looking at the udders on the doeling's dam and sire's dam and ask yourself, Does she have the genetic potential to have a correct udder? Then look at the doeling's overall conformation. Length and depth will lead to udder capacity as will width. Look at her rump angle to get a general idea of how high her rear udder will be. Most importantly, look at her from the rear and ask, Does she have the room for a capacious udder? You want her rear end to be a perfect silhouette of a well attached udder that only needs to be filled to be correct. You want their escutchion to be open and horseshoe shaped if you look at the area from her hocks up and imagine her legs as the open end of the horseshoe. If her escutchion is pointed or narrow, chances are she won't have as good attachment as she would with a full horseshoe shape. 
I hope that makes sense! Lol even that is no guarantee, but it provides a partial idea of what to expect. And if a doe is put together right, but doesn't have a great FF udder, give her another year or two. Sometimes they need time to grow into themselves and really bloom.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

Morning Star Farm said:


> Evaluating junior does in an attempt to see what kind of udder they will develop is really a guessing game. You never know what you will end up with. As others have said though, look for straight, single teats. That's about all you can tell there and even then, there is no guarantee that they will be straight when the doe freshens and fills up with milk, but generally speaking, a doe with straight teats would be more likely to freshen straight.
> A more accurate, but still not perfect way, is to start by looking at the udders on the doeling's dam and sire's dam and ask yourself, Does she have the genetic potential to have a correct udder? Then look at the doeling's overall conformation. Length and depth will lead to udder capacity as will width. Look at her rump angle to get a general idea of how high her rear udder will be. Most importantly, look at her from the rear and ask, Does she have the room for a capacious udder? You want her rear end to be a perfect silhouette of a well attached udder that only needs to be filled to be correct. You want their escutchion to be open and horseshoe shaped if you look at the area from her hocks up and imagine her legs as the open end of the horseshoe. If her escutchion is pointed or narrow, chances are she won't have as good attachment as she would with a full horseshoe shape.
> I hope that makes sense! Lol even that is no guarantee, but it provides a partial idea of what to expect. And if a doe is put together right, but doesn't have a great FF udder, give her another year or two. Sometimes they need time to grow into themselves and really bloom.


Very interesting Morning Star...

Teats seem pretty straightforward...
Udders on dam-side and sire-side...that is one thing I really try to look at when choosing a buck. Our does have decent udders in their backgrounds but, they themselves need to be improved upon. I'm trying to do that by breeding to a stronger buck line for better conformed babies. I can't say that I've really checked the actual buck's teats before tho'...
Rump Angle...what am I looking for..?
Escutcheon/Rear End view...you explained that perfectly!! As soon as you described the *horseshoe vs. pointed/narrow*...I got it!! Makes perfect sense. 
How long do you keep your doelings before you decide which ones are 'keepers' and which ones will be sold..? In the past, we have listed the babies for sale within their first week and, they sold before we could change our minds.  Starting this year, we are taking a more serious approach to retaining our best doeling(s) for herd improvement so, I'm thinking we need to wait a while so they can mature a bit (before deciding to keep or sell) but, not sure.


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## Morning Star Farm (Sep 26, 2018)

For rump angle, I'll try to find some pictures, but basically you want them as level as possible or just slightly slanted downwards. The less angle the better, but you don't want the rump slanting up either.


HMNS said:


> How long do you keep your doelings before you decide which ones are 'keepers' and which ones will be sold..? In the past, we have listed the babies for sale within their first week and, they sold before we could change our minds.  Starting this year, we are taking a more serious approach to retaining our best doeling(s) for herd improvement so, I'm thinking we need to wait a while so they can mature a bit (before deciding to keep or sell) but, not sure.


I usually selected my keepers when I did my breeding schedule based on which crosses I thought would really produce a nice doe. After they were born I would evaluate them and see if they were showing potential to unfold nicely. If I liked them, I usually kept them upwards of 6 months before I would sell them if I didn't feel they would fit my breeding program. Some kids can go through lanky growth spurts before they really start to come together and need more time. I had a set number of doe kids I would keep every year, usually 5, but I would end up with one or two extra "just in case" lol. Also, if I had the opportunity to buy what I felt was a nicer doe, I would sell one or two of my keepers. As my keepers grew, I was constantly looking at their conformation. I like fast maturing lines, so it was a big Plus for me if the doeling was maturing quickly and smoothly. I also wanted to see if they were an improvement over their dam. If they were I would keep them and sell the dam, if not, I would sell the kid. Usually I kept several doelings until they freshened and then sold them if I wasn't happy with their udders. They would have bloomed with time, but I wanted lines that didn't take as much time. It all depends on what your herd goals are and what area you are trying to improve in your herd.


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## HMNS (Jul 15, 2019)

Morning Star Farm said:


> For rump angle, I'll try to find some pictures, but basically you want them as level as possible or just slightly slanted downwards. The less angle the better, but you don't want the rump slanting up either.
> 
> I usually selected my keepers when I did my breeding schedule based on which crosses I thought would really produce a nice doe. After they were born I would evaluate them and see if they were showing potential to unfold nicely. If I liked them, I usually kept them upwards of 6 months before I would sell them if I didn't feel they would fit my breeding program. Some kids can go through lanky growth spurts before they really start to come together and need more time. I had a set number of doe kids I would keep every year, usually 5, but I would end up with one or two extra "just in case" lol. Also, if I had the opportunity to buy what I felt was a nicer doe, I would sell one or two of my keepers. As my keepers grew, I was constantly looking at their conformation. I like fast maturing lines, so it was a big Plus for me if the doeling was maturing quickly and smoothly. I also wanted to see if they were an improvement over their dam. If they were I would keep them and sell the dam, if not, I would sell the kid. Usually I kept several doelings until they freshened and then sold them if I wasn't happy with their udders. They would have bloomed with time, but I wanted lines that didn't take as much time. It all depends on what your herd goals are and what area you are trying to improve in your herd.


What breed do you raise..? We have Nigerian Dwarfs. If you are a ND person, I'd love to see what kind of bloodlines you have in your herd and hear which ones are your favorites.

Interested to see the rump pics. I have seen some extremely angled rumps on some goats and wondered how much trouble they have kidding. I've yet to see a completely level or up-hill rump.


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## Gooseberry Creek (Jun 3, 2020)

Does anyone know if there is a high correlation of the mother being prone to mastitis and the doelings getting mastitis? I thought mastitis was an infection from bacteria getting into the teat orifice? I'm new at this so just wondering..


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

It is not inherited, no.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Gooseberry Creek said:


> Does anyone know if there is a high correlation of the mother being prone to mastitis and the doelings getting mastitis? I thought mastitis was an infection from bacteria getting into the teat orifice? I'm new at this so just wondering..


Does with mastitis have high somatic cell counts. 
There is a heritability factor in does that naturally have higher than average somatic cell counts. 
Based on those two factors, mastitis is somewhat, sometimes, thought to possibly be heritable.


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## Ranger1 (Sep 1, 2014)

Also, a very prominent breeder in this country, who is also a vet, says there is a strong correlation to does being more prone to mastitis their entire life, if they’ve nursed from a doe that has active mastitis, or if they were fed reject milk that was out of active mastitis doe(a common practice, since that milk has to be funneled away from the human consumption line.)
So that wouldn’t be heritable, but still something to keep in mind.


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## Gooseberry Creek (Jun 3, 2020)

Wow that's so interesting! Thank you for the thorough explaination. Good to know.


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