# weak kid syndrome? conflicting advice online



## jonara (Aug 30, 2011)

Hi everyone...

I have on my hands a little boy born last night or early this morning. Found around 9 a.m. momma was not really wanting to get up and when I tried to drag her down the hillside pasture her legs gave out. So I think the baby did not nurse at all up until then. It's umbilical cord was very wet halfway down and then starting to dry up. if that is any indicator as to how long after he was born,. 

Got mom down ..she finally followed me. But one back leg was a little stiff. It was her first and he was pretty big. 

Gave her and baby nutri drench molasses. and fed her grain and alfafa hay and water. Baby kinda sorta poked around under her..wrong side of course...like he was just born. he found the teet at one point got it in his mouth then just dropped it. For an hour out there with him he could not get it. all he wants to do is lay down. Mom does want to nurse him..she's holding very still...licking his behind..trying to move her leg for him. But he's really not interested. 

I milked her no problem..(other then it being something new for me so I probably could get more at one setting if I had more practice) tried to feed baby. I have raised a number of babies on cow milk and got even hard to feed 3 week old wild ones to take a bottle..but this little guy is a bugger..he won't have much engery until he wants me to know for sure he does not want that bottle in his mouth. 

I tried again an hour later before I had to leave for a few hours..got him to suckle one suck and thats it. end up squirting it in his mouth and feel him swallow it..then squirt again etc. 

3 hours later I get home try again..got him to suck maybe two sucks..thats it. Oh and I'm offering his mom first every time..but no go. I can tell the mom has not nursed..her bag will be so tight and full. I offer him both before and after milking her. but he doens't even try or act interested in the least.

While I am at home and can see them in the little shelter in my backyard through my window..so have been observing as much as possible and do not ever see him even trying to nurse. he sleeps the whole time.

one more time I tried outside with them before it got dark..gave him molasses and this time he suck a little bit down..but still so quick...like 4 sucks? and then sooo tired. hates the bottle in his mouth. Lets milk dribble out of his mouth.

brought him in house tonight..tried bottle again..no go..tried syringe..a little better.

I've never had a baby with weak kid syndrome before. I'm only guessing that this is is. So I read to give them the baking soda from so many ...and then others say no that will change thier PH and it's really only for bloat and that you shouldn't really do it.

also I read coffee and molasses..I did the molasses..but then I read no on the coffee its only if they are going to be cold.

Hopefully we make it through the night...and hopefully I'm awake enough to read your advice lol! It's been a long crazy weak of babies being born..a case of pnemonia...and major week long flooding storm here.

thanks in advance!!

jamee 

I


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

This kid needs treatment now. Take his temp if below 102 bring him inside and put him in a garbage bag - head out. Get your sink water hot but not scalding where it is just hot to you. Fill it up and soak him in it replenishing the hot water - don't let it get warm/cold. After 15 min blow dry him with a hair dryer on hot 10 inches away. Warm up some towels in your dryer and after he is blow dried for about 10 min place him snuggled in the towels. Take temp again if above 100 start him on electrolytes or lactacted Ringer Solution - warm 60cc and give 30cc per side SQ. Give time to absorb and repeat spaced out over several hours. If he can't hold his head up get some molasses and rub it on his gums.

If normal temp and he can hold his head up - Milk the doe - Colostrum is very important. Get him to drink 1-2cc of Colostrum. If you have to - tube feed. If temp normal and very weak, mix 5cc of strong (double normal brew) coffee with 1tbs molasses or Karo Syrup and give him 1-2cc of it again if you have to -tube feed.

After feeding whatever way you can above, take temp. Warm towels again and get a heating pad to stay under the towel. Check on him often and turn him side to side to prevent pneumonia.


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## jonara (Aug 30, 2011)

Darn it didn't post my last post and I lost it. Have to get to bed..but basically I cannot do a lot of what you said. I kind of fell into this situation..rent a place that has goats on it and landlord moved away. Doesn't want them..uses them for ag land and lawn mowers. I can't handle watching little ones die 

I don't have goat thermometer..don't have or know what ringers solution is. I just do what I can..already spend my own money feeding many of these guys and raising other babies when needed. 

Got molasses and mommas milk down him a bit ago..just barely 1/2 oz again with a syringe. dribbles a lot out though. getting weaker as night goes on  

His ears feel cold. I put him in a onesie and a sweater and diapers...he's in a playpen in a boppie pillow with blankets all around and now has a towel under him with a heating pad. at some point he may just end up in bed with me.

will try some molasses and coffee before I go to bed..just messed with him a bunch to get the milk down him. I know the colostrum is important..so I tried as soon as I realized there was a problem..but I have no idea if it was within the 12 hours since I don't know when he was born.

Hoping I don't wake up to dead baby  These goats have been an awesome experience and I LOVE them...love animals period..but I am a bit overwhelmed and get sooo sad and worried when any of them are sick.

jamee


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

How's your kid? Any thermometer will work (lol, nobody will use any of mine), but, I'm guessing he's very cold. Hope you got him warmed up and he's nursing now. Sorry you are having so much trouble with your kidding. We want to help, great advice from Melissa.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Sounds like you are doing your best. I sure hope he made it through the night, but if he didn't I can really tell you tried. Souns like it was a hard delivery on both of them. A kid like that would more than likely need to be tube fed for a day or two before getting strong enough to suck. A tube feeding kit is pretty inexpensive in our area. You may want to look into it for in the future. It can make things a lot easier and there are really good on-line instructions. If you have access to Karo corn syrup, light, you may want to also keep some of that on hand for the future. The type of sugar that is in it is fast absorbing and works quickly. Not saying it would have helped in this case, but it may be a little better source of energy than the mollasses. Although I have heard of people using the mollasses. And the coffee wouldn't hurt him any at this point. I don't think you are dealing with weak kid syndrom at this point. I think you are simply dealing with a kid that had a tough delivery and didn't get nursing soon enough and now is a little cold. What are your temps there? I am assuming fairly warm.


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## jonara (Aug 30, 2011)

Hi guys..thanks for the kind words and the advice. Was just too busy with all the goats to get back online. 

So I used the blowdryer and warmed him up and his blankets (awesome idea!) gave him coffee and mollasses and put the playpen by the woodstove.. Still had to force him to eat at midnite..then 3 oclock feeding he was eager to eat from the syringe..got 1 oz instead of 1/2 oz down him. 6 oclock feeding tried the bottle again and he took it. I think I got over an oz down. 

He still was weak and not able to stand well but as day went on he progressed. I took him out in the sun to warm him and visit momma..finally got a peed diaper and a little poop. two times when he pooped he cried and cried and pushed so hard. I've never seen that. Visiting momma instinct started kicking in and he acted a little interested in nursing..but he's so tall with long legs that its hard for him to bend down cuz he's having a hard time standing up even..so he gives up. The next feeding I took him out to mom again and he nursed good and long! Put he started going down hill again with the eating and started getting pnemonia I think. 

His momma got massive diarrhea last night..it was everywhere  Hard to milk her for him...tried to clean off teets best I could but got flakes of poop in the milk so had to toss it. so he had to start on Cow milk now. I was able to get another oz for him of momma milk..but as the day turned into evening he started acting not interested again..wouldn't even try to suck on mom..wouldn't take a bottle and I'm back to forcing a syringe.

He sneezed a lot last night and woke up sounding snotty and rattly cough sometimes..not all the time. So I was watching him and giving him the natural immune stuff from the gal from Fiasco farms but when he started going backwards with the eating I went ahead and gave him the oral antibiotic that I picked up from the vet today for him. He is walking around on my rug though..and wants so bad to hang out under my coffee table..lick the legs and fun stuff like that. so he's not as bad as he was last night even though he's not eating well again.

what are our temps? even though I'm in Hawaii..I"m in what we call "upcountry" I don't know what our elevation is here..but it's cold for me. It's been like 55 a lot at night and gets down to 47. We have had constant rain storms lately and when it's not storming its' windy and blowing misty rain over. Our winds have been going crazy like 50mph gusts.

Thermometer: I only have on..a battery operated one and we use it. I need to get another one. But right now I"m so overwhelmed I am panicking when I think of getting more supplies for doing this more. 

Honestly I want to cry thinking about getting more supplies planning for going through this again. Two many babies are being born at once with issues this year and this crazy weather has made it worse....along with other issues from members of the herd of about 35+ ...trees down..fences in long process of being mended..escape artist goats..calls from neighbors cuz they are in thier yard again..it's pretty much nonstop. The caretaker doesn't live close and has other properties and his work..so he can't be here all the time..so it often falls to me if I don't want to watch a goat suffer or die. I would LOVE to do this for a job..but it's not my job and so I 'have' to do other work...problem is I work at home and the goats live here at my home..so the work sits and all I end up doing is caretaking these goats and getting nothing else done.

sorry..very overwhelmed today..had to vent a bit lol


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## jonara (Aug 30, 2011)

OH...question again...I keep trying to at least express milk from the babies mom so that I can hopefully get him over this pnemonia and back out with her..how often do I need to be doing this? 

thanks


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## Di (Jan 29, 2008)

You can milk her twice a day and hold it over in the fridge and warm it on the stove, or you can take him too her 5 or 6 times a day and let him nurse, but it's hard to tell how much they are eating. You can give the doe some pepto bismal for the diarrhea. Keep up with the antibiotic...what did they give you? 

Are you telling us these are not your goats? Are you a paid caretaker? Keep him really warm...they can't regulate their own temps at first and with being sick it will be awhile before he can, he should have a constant form of heat...like a heating pad...or hot water bottles. Make that owner buy you some basic things for these goats!


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

If I read it right you are not the owner and not the paid caretaker for this herd. I agree with getting the owner out their and discuss that if you are going to keep up with his goats he needs to buy you some supplies. Or he needs to be the one I'd be calling everytime something was going on

With that said, I understand the situation you are in and not wanting to see them suffer. This little guys rumen is getting too many different forms of milk. With momma having her own health issues, I would not keep taking him out there to nurse. If he were mine I would keep him inside and warm and bottle feed him with cow's milk. Don't keep switching him up. The bottle milk should be really warm that helps them want to drink it. About 100 degrees. Put 1/2 to 1 tsp baking soda in his bottle to help his rumen. If you have probios, that would work as well.

You said he did go poop but was crying. Did you look at it? It should be small soft balls not mushy not hard and not clumped. If it was hard or clumped, give him some more molasses - not much will do. Add 1/2 tsp to his bottle til he starts going normal.

Main thing is to keep him warm and drinking. If he won't take to a bottle, put some in a small plastic sandwich baggy, place your index finger into the baggy to a corner, cut the corner tip very small(don't cut your finger..lol), rub molasses on the tip and he should start drinking it that way sucking the milk and your finger. Once he gets good sucking reflex going you can put him back on the bottle - rub the nipple with the molasses too so he gets the same feel.

Try to keep him on a schedule - Like 6am, 11am, 3pm, 8pm, 12 midnight until two weeks old.

For the cold he has coming on, do you have a Tractor Supply Store? They have VetRX for about $7 and it works wonders. You will probably find it in the chicken section. You rub it on/around his nose and eyes. Usually stops cold symptoms within a day or two.

You are doing great trying to keep this baby alive especially when he's not yours. But I bet with all your doing, he will be yours in your heart by the time you're done. I glad he has you there.

ADDED: Just saw you are wanting to get him back out with mom, personally with her having diarrhea - she has some health issues going on whether coccidia or something else and his health issues, I wouldn't put him with her until both are well. But if you're going to keep them separate and then put him back with her - you'll have to milk her to keep her milk flowing which could be a week or two and by then there wouldn't be a bond anymore making it difficult to get him to nurse again - not impossible just difficult.

If you really want them together, I would keep him in while he's sick and take him out there to nurse on a schedule like above. You could bottle him with mom's milk for the early morning and late feedings and keep him inside overnight. Again this could be a week or two until they are both doing better. It's hard on mom to produce milk when she is fighting something and hard on baby when he's struggling and getting milk from a sick mom. Mom needs to be treated for the diarrhea - Pepto Bismal adult dose as on the bottle, and treat coccidia with Di-Methox 12.5% 10cc orally for five days.

To me it's just easier to bottle feed than to keep running him in and out, but that's me. But which ever way you go, stick with that don't switch from mom's milk to cow's milk and so on that makes his body have to keep adjusting and not good for him.

I know this is SOooo much right now. I am sorry you are going through this. Keep your spirits up. I would keep calling the owner and get him involved. These goats are his responsibility, not yours.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 28, 2011)

Is mollasses constipating??? I don't know the answer that is why I am asking
corn syrup will help him poop
baking soda (1/8 or 1/4 teaspoon) mixed in warm water or the mollasses or milk and dripped in his mouth may help with indigestion. 

Sorry you are dealing with this. Sounds very very frustrating and upsetting. 

Hugs from Virginia.


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

molasses will make the poo softer but too much can give diarrhea.


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## redwingminis (Dec 4, 2012)

What would be the bottle feeding schedule after the two weeks and up thru 8 weeks or weaning?


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Here's a sample feeding schedule: 
Birth to 2weeks - 6am, 11am, 3pm, 8pm, 12 midnight
Week 2-4 - 7am, 11am, 5pm, 12 midnight
Week 4 - 2 months - 7am, 2pm, 9pm changing to 7am and 7pm as weaning occurs.

And feeding amounts -

Weeks Two-Three 4xd mini breeds 4-6 oz big breeds 6-8 oz 
Weeks Four-Eight 3-4xd mini 6-8 oz big breeds 10-12 
Two-Three Months 2-3xd mini 6-8 oz big breeds 10-12

I start weaning at 6weeks and weaned by 8weeks. Some go longer, some wean by 6weeks. But at two weeks you can leave hay out for him and he'll start nibbling. It helps his rumen adjust.


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## jonara (Aug 30, 2011)

Hi!..I disappeared..can't keep up with everything..I feel like I live in an animal hospital between my old invalid cats and invalid goats and goats with probs and tons of babies being born. I wish this was all I had to do..I'd be one happy camper..but it's not..have to work.


 anyways..have to be quick..but yes..I now took the baby away from mom..she is very sick  Baby is only on cow milk. Went to store today and got light karo syrup and just gave it to him in his bottle. He seemed to only poop a little bit yesterday. It was like most babies during the first couple days..sticky horrible like taffy. starting to be less of that yesterday..but just not much at all. And he did start crying when he was pooping again last night when hubby was holding him. It's a weird cry..my husband thought the baby was happy to see him and talking to him..I said "no he's pooping' lol! He had a good day of sucking and eating 2 oz at time yesterday..but middle of night feeding and today was tough..even had to use syringe again last night. Just read temp can be really important...so made it warmer then usual and put the karo syrup and he downed it. The other babies I raised were never as picky as this guy. but if that is all it is..I will be happy! Hope the karo helps the constipation. I'm not set up to give an enema.

His mom is in bad shape. I think she has a uterine infection..I never saw the placenta around her and I am fairly sure she was where she gave birth when I found her because she was not wanting to get up and acting hurt and I think that is what caused this whole thing to begin with..they were both just laying there all night through the horrible weather and baby never ate. So I got LA200 from the vet..gave her that shot yesterday. She's still pretty bad today..super anemic looking in gums and eyes..not really eating..even spitting up chewed food that she did try to eat. So got a B12 injection from vet and vet said instead of waiting for tomorrow to give #2 of 3 LA200 injections, give it to her today. But I'm so bad with remembering how to do it that I forgot I was supposed to push the needle all the way in..I only pushed it half way in the muscle both times..so I hope she got enough.

Her poop sample showed worms still...I told the vet she had cydectin (purple wormer) on the 8th of the month and then again a couple of days ago since she gave birth. The vet said she was not familiar with that and to go ahead and give her a dose of levamisole today. (she's not a goat vet..but has had a few goats because of them being abandoned or sick and dumped off..this one was a dying baby and her daughters raised it for two months then passed it off to me to finish up raising it and kept it here. But she just moved to the mainland and left her here cuz she had no choice. I said I'd do my best to look after her.) 
 
as far as the situation here..I totally hear you and it should be that way..I think I should get money off of my rent too for all I do. It doesn't matter who caretakes..I'm the one here and I can't call a caretaker everytime someone is stuck in a fence..our escaped from the pasture. These goats I guess you might consider them as abandoned..the owner of the land moved away and gave the whole herd to the last caretaker in trade for some work. So they were hers..But there was a part of the work she absolutely could not finish before they suddenly had to move. She told me to tell the landlord she was just giving the goats back. The landlord was mad and was going to get his cousin to come in and sell them all off for meat and do something else ag related with the land so that he could at least make money off of the land. (I having a relationship with the goats now after 3 years was devistated) A friend into goats was picking up a pregnant doe I was giving him to escape that fate..he was here when this all happened...so he spoke to my landlord (who was actually here visiting family across from us at the time) & offered to help take care of them in exchange to use the land. My landlord calmed down about it and agreed to let the goats stay here. He needs 'something' here. yes we are doing him a service..a BIG one..but he doesn't see it that way..he actually was 100 bucks a month for the land..but is being very patient. Esp since a huge tree went down on the fence that created a ton of more work. So we just do the best we can with what we know and have.

The now caretaker friend has left me with some supplies..like wormer and nutridrench and he has been good about buying hay recently..I've been supplying most of the grain for the mommas. There are some customers of mine that have fallen in love with the goats and they purchase jewelry that I put up for sale where 1/2 of it go to the goats and a couple have just sent money to help feed them..so I have had an easier time of it recently. Plus the vet that I know has been generous with meds at times and advice..but I don't want to wear our friendship out with that. 
So that's the scoop! Sorry I had to vent last post..I was ..and am super overwhelmed. There is still more drama out there on goat hill besides this! Thank you for your help and support!

jamee


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## jonara (Aug 30, 2011)

so I gave the baby karo syrup in his milk for the not pooping hardly all day and the crying when pooping...i read somewhere online a couple tsps and somewhere else tablespoons..so I chose to do the couple tsps...a couple hours later he FILLED his diaper but it's diahhrea. Then he did it again a couple hours later. He is acting fine ...but I hope it doesn't continue. 

Was that way over kill on the amount of Karo? If he's bad tonight and I need to make him a homemade electrolyte solution..it's calling for karo syrup again..I'm almost afraid to give him anymore!

I only have an off brand of pepto on hand..I read that pepto bismal is the only brand you should use on newborns because whatever the base is that is used to carry the medicine is like razors to thier stomachs. Is this true? So I won't be able to give him any of that until I stop at the store tomorrow.

*update* tons of diarrha before bed ...even got all over me so opted to give the off brand pepto I had. got up at 3 am to chk for a mess in playpen he sleeps in ..only a little..but looked pretty wet soaked into diaper so gave him homemade electrolyte. But found a recipe w/ honey. confused about the amounts of sugars to add..one recipe has 4 cups water w/ 2 tbs karo...I didn't want to put more karo in him so found one with 1 cup water and 2 tbs honey or molasses. is it not an exact science? I didn't want to put that much sugar in it incase it cased anymore issues for him so kinda went inbetween. I read that I'm supposed to replace milk with this for 24 hours...so I want to make sure that I am doing it right.

This morning still diarrhea. and his mom was not getting up..dehydrated doing really bad. Got 1/2c of the electrolyte solution down her and nutridrench ...her diarrhea is worse so gave her pepto. She got up finally. wont eat even the rose leaves that are her fav and she would eat yesterday. She ate a couple nibbles of apple. 

anymore advice appreciated..thanks guys


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## mjgh06 (Sep 4, 2012)

Yeah I think you gave him too much Karo. The dosage I recommend when constipated or very hard not pooping - is 1/2 tsp to a bottle. The first dose I gave you at 1tbs was to 5cc of coffee and then dosed at 1-2cc which equals to about 1tsp for when they are really constipated which I guessed at because you had said he was making noise like it hurt when he tried to poo. Don't give him any more karo, molasses or honey.

If he doesn't have a temp you can get him back onto the cow's milk. Just add 3cc of pepto to bottle every 4-6 hours until he starts firming up and then stop the pepto. Pepto won't hurt him, but you can add some probios to his bottle as well to help his rumen adjust. Powder add 1/2 tsp. 
I have the off brand of pepto and that's what I use, the ingredients on mine just show it as 161mg of calcium. Nothing else. 

Mom needs the adult dose of pepto and probios. Also if she is not eating you may want to warm some water with 1/2 electrolyte solution like pedialite and try to get her to drink it. Usually if it is warm, goats will drink it easier. If you have hay, pile some up near her.. Or try some yogurt if you have some. She doesn't need grain feed while sick, but can eat all the hay she will eat. Keep trying to get her to drink the electrolytes every 4-6 hours rewarming it for her. And keep dosing the pepto. 

Can't remember if you started a cocci treatment for mom or not. If you haven't I would start her on it. There are lots of options for treatment of cocci - 
Sulmet 12.5% at 1cc/5# day one and 1cc/10# day 2-5. OR
Tagamet - 1 200mg tab for 5 days OR
Albon orally 1cc/5# day one 1cc/10# day 2-5 OR
Dimethox 8-10cc orally for 5 days OR
Sulfaquinoxaline 20% 2cc/50# for 5 days
With all Cocci treatment also treat with probios


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## jonara (Aug 30, 2011)

Oh I didn't even go back and see if you put a dose..I just searched online on my phone and found two different doses. Darn I really over did it! Poor little guy! I did put him back on milk plus the electro..read to never fully switch..it's not enough nutrients...chose to follow that advice..since I basically know why he has diarrhea. I gave him pepto a couple of times yesterday..but not today. he only had one big filled diaper and it's starting to have darker 'pieces' in it..and others were smaller squirts. He's getting more sneezy though  He's on a sulfa antibiotic already for pnemonia..been since Tuesday night. but he never had so much sneezing before..just rattly chest and coughed a few times..nose sounded stuffed when he was breathing and he breathed quick. But that all went away accept for the stuffy nose. I"m hoping he's not getting some kind of secondary infection. I have been keeping him warm. and we had a couple warm days so he has been outside to visit the sunshine here and there.

The momma..I don't know once again if she is going to make it through the night. I got her poop tested at the vet so she doesn't have cocci. She is just so weak from not eating. Have had everything by her to choose from, alfafla hay, grain, fresh grass, rose leaves, hibiscuss, olive bush, ginger and a vine that grows by me that the vet said is very good for them. She was into the vine off and on..the rose leaves one day and today it's been ginger. but just a piece here and there. I've been goign out every couple hours and giving her warm electrolyte solution. I read you can do gatoraide...so my husband went to get some and got power aide instead because it had corn syrup instead of sucrolose and it has all the vitimin B's in it..including B12. Gave her a couple doses of pepto yesterday.she still has diarrhea but barely a squirt cuz shes got nothing in there..getting really skinny.

I'm soo very tired..and now my own son is in the emergency rib with possibly a cracked rib from a very bad snow boarding tumble. I stayed home because of the goaties..hubby is with him. But I don't want to give up on her. I wonder though if I am just prolonging her misery and if I just need to let her fall asleep peacefully. I have had hospital staff tell me when my uncle was dying that when a dying person stops eating...their body isn't hungry anymore and it releases endorphins and actually makes them feel better before they die. When you force them to eat and they are gonna die anyways..they don't get those endorphins. 

She had her last dose of LA200 today..not much else I can do


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## jonara (Aug 30, 2011)

just thought I would come back and tell those who have helped me through my little crisis...Daisy is still alive! I really didn't think she was gonna make it through the night a couple of times. she's super thin but little by little eating more and more. Still won't take grain and only a tiny bit of hay. But I think she is going to pull through


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Glad she is doing better.


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