# Is this the dreaded "tube ear?"



## Everfree

One of our boy's ears has a funny fold. Is this the dreaded "vertical fold" or "tube ear" that should be culled?








Funky ear








Funky ear








Front view shows normal and funky ear.

(Editing for captions.)


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

I just had a buckling born with this. Wondering if I can tape it somehow to straighten it out.


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## Everfree

I did see a post about splinting the ear with cardboard and duct tape, but my concern is that I don't want to introduce faults to my herd.


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## kccjer

This site says you shouldn't fix the vertical fold. It is a culling defect and gives the reason why. It also tells you how to "fix" the horizontal or tip fold...

http://www.boergoats.com/clean/articleads.php?art=867


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## Everfree

Well, shucks.


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## kccjer

Yeah...he's a good looking boy...


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## toth boer goats

Yep, not good unfortunately.


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## Everfree

What would you do with a buck of this age (approx. 8 years)? He has such beautiful horns. Seems a bit old for freezer camp.

Should I cull his kids even if they don't exhibit the ear fault?


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## kccjer

I asked at the sale barn one day what the heck they did with all the old bucks. I was told that there is truly a market for it and some people would rather have that than younger! Can't imagine eating something that smells like that tho.....:mrgreen:


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## Everfree

Hmm. Maybe he'll make good sausage.


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## nchen7

I have a girl who has that, but doesn't look as severe as your guy there. I just keep an eye out make sure it stays cleaned (which it does...never looks dirty). I don't show, and my girl is for home milking purposes only though...

I know this is for cull reasons, but is it genetic (i.e. can she pass it to her kids)? I've been googling this but I can't seem to find the answer.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

I found a reference that it can be. Which sucks because I'm considering keeping my buckling for breeding - we'll see how he grows up.


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## Everfree

From everything I've read (admittedly limited), this is a heritable trait.


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## nancy d

No I wouldn't cull any kids. 
We all get faults or undesired traits every now & then, we just don't use them as breeding stock.

As for meat, you can have him all ground & get brats & Hot Italian sausage. And yes, many cultures prefer older bucks.


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## MsScamp

Everfree said:


> What would you do with a buck of this age (approx. 8 years)? He has such beautiful horns. Seems a bit old for freezer camp.
> 
> Should I cull his kids even if they don't exhibit the ear fault?


Well, from what I have read, they make very good curried goat for prisoners. Yet another reason to behave myself and not give in to those impulses to kill stupid people!


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## MsScamp

nchen7 said:


> ...but is it genetic (i.e. can she pass it to her kids)? I've been googling this but I can't seem to find the answer.


Yes, it is genetic and, yes, it can be passed on to her kids.


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## nchen7

GoatCrazy said:


> Yes, it is genetic and, yes, it can be passed on to her kids.


hrmmm.....bummer.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Here's a picture of the splint I put on Midas today. He's 2 weeks old; I probably should have done it sooner but his is really minor so I think it will probably work. If I straight it by hand it stays there for a second but folds back when he moves. I didn't think to bring tape with me so it's held on by bandaids but I'll redo it tomorrow  If this works I don't think I would consider this a cull trait - even if it is genetic, splinting is an easy fix. 

BTW he is not as butt high as he looks, no idea why he was standing like that!


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Midas is on his third splint - I redid it with tape the day after, and added two steel nuts for weight to help it go down instead of back. When I took that off today his ear hung straight! I'll leave it on for a week or so to make sure it stays but seems like it will be fine.


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## nchen7

sweet! can't wait for after pictures!


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## kc8lsk

On a older buck corning is possible you can get a good corned beef recipe off the internet you won't even taste the buckiness it really works and if you like corned beef you'll love corned cheveron if you need the recipe i can get it to you too


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Well, he'd gotten the splint off when I showed up today but the ear is still hanging right so I'll just keep an eye on it. I don't see any reason to consider this a culling trait when it only takes a few minutes to splint it.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Fixed!


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## nchen7

wow! how did you get the spint to stay on? I figured with my doe it would be a fix like that, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to keep it on....


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Tape. Lots and lots of tape lol. The key was wrapping it at the base of the ear where it's small, against his head. The splint didn't go that far but since the ear gets wider below that the tape can't slide down.


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## nchen7

ok! he's a cutie pie! you wouldn't even know his ear had a fold in it


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## toth boer goats

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> Well, he'd gotten the splint off when I showed up today but the ear is still hanging right so I'll just keep an eye on it. I don't see any reason to consider this a culling trait when it only takes a few minutes to splint it.


I have to disagree, you still have the genetic fault, which is only covered with a band aid sort to speak. And selling any offspring with this genetic trait to another breeder isn't fair. Most likely, the offspring will have kids with the fault. I wouldn't sell any of these kids as breeders.
Fixable or not, it isn't good to pass on.

Show breeders and others, do not want it, however, meat goat suppliers may not care.

To me, it is a cull factor. Sorry to disagree, but it is not wise to continue a fault, that the Goat Association believes to be a "cull factor". 
They have standards so the boer goat industry stays strong.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

My point is why would you care about it being passed on, if it's that easy to fix and will cause no health problems? It's not a "band-aid" if it's a permanent solution. If someone isn't willing to spend a few minutes putting a splint on, they probably shouldn't have goats IMO.


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## luvmywaggintails

I have a boer buckling born two weeks ago that also has a vertical fold in his ear. I have splinted this too and it is working to straighten the ear, however, as has been mentioned in earlier posts this is a reason to cull since it is a genetic issue. This goat will be wethered so I'm not too concerned about him.....but....we have never had this happen before with kids from his dam and she is seven years old and had kids every year.


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## nancy d

Folded vertical ear is not an issue in an animal going for meat. You know what they say. "Breed the best & eat the rest."


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## toth boer goats

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> My point is why would you care about it being passed on, if it's that easy to fix and will cause no health problems? It's not a "band-aid" if it's a permanent solution. If someone isn't willing to spend a few minutes putting a splint on, they probably shouldn't have goats IMO.


I know some can be fixed, that is good, however, they should be culled, not allowed in certain breeding programs.
If you do meat goats, then, it is no big deal, however, for registered stock, it shouldn't be considered under the rules of ABGA.

I will not argue with you on the points, I am done, so please refrain from doing so. *
*


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## CritterCarnival

> Originally Posted by *Wild Hearts Ranch*  _My point is why would you care about it being passed on, if it's that easy to fix and will cause no health problems? It's not a "band-aid" if it's a permanent solution. If someone isn't willing to spend a few minutes putting a splint on, they probably shouldn't have goats IMO._





toth boer goats said:


> I know some can be fixed, that is good, however, they should be culled, not allowed in certain breeding programs.
> If you do meat goats, then, it is no big deal, however, *for registered stock, it shouldn't be considered under the rules of ABGA.*
> 
> I will not argue with you on the points, I am done, so please refrain from doing so.


I couldn't agree more. If you are going to sell registered animals, of any species, you should always make sure the animal is the best example of it's kind. To knowingly breed a disqualifying fault into a line is very dishonest. Even if it is "easily fixed", it is still bad form to breed the animal and likely cause the fault to crop up unexpectedly for someone else.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

But there's no good reason for WHY it would be a disqualifying trait. From what I've read they won't disqualify a horizontal fold because it's A) easily fixed and B) not a health concern. Both are true in this case as well, so why should it be different? If my guy was to show they wouldn't be able to tell he'd had one and he wouldn't be disqualified. Usually a DQ trait is one that adversely affects the animal throughout its life.


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## nancy d

All DQs are based on very legitimate reasons over hundreds of years of breeding in S Africa.
A vertically folded ear gets ear wax gunk & insects trapped in it. 
Its great you fixed it but as stated, there are reasons behind all acceptable show stock.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Sure, there are reasons that they want Nubians to have a Roman nose, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with their health or capabilities as a dairy animal. I'm trying to find out what the reasoning is besides "someone else said so." If the reasoning is that it was harder to make a splint hundreds of years ago in South Africa, I don't find that valid.


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## nancy d

ABGA has pretty much adopted the rules straight out of S Africa. And you dont have to agree with it.
If you want to go splinting ears have at.
I once had a doe with vertically folded ear. Every month or so I had to scoop globs of ear wax out of it.
She was a real nice doe but I couldn't show her. She never threw any kids with that but I wouldn't chance it with any buck.


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## toth boer goats

"*Quote*" *I will not argue with you on the points, I am done, so please refrain from doing so.* *"Quote"

As I stated above, we are not going to argue the point, ABGA has rules and reasons for things, call them and ask, they made the rules and if you want registered animals, you are suppose to abide by those rules. It is called "breed standards". 
We are trying to better the breed and must follow important guidelines to do so.

I am not going to steer others, in the wrong direction, just because it is fixable, the flipped up ear is acceptable, the collapsed, is not, that is why, I only want to do what is right, by stating, it is a cull factor for the breed or any breed.

 I have already given 1 warning to you, stated above, please call the ABGA and ask their reasoning.
We have given to you ours, that is all we can do. If you want to listen to our advice, that is fine and if you don't, that is OK too. 

*


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## NubianFan

I have a different question for the original poster, you said this buck is 8. Did you just purchase him? Or did he just develop this? I would think it was something they would have since birth.


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## taiweber

So what about the fold at the bottom of ear. The bottom tip folds up. Is that bad???


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## canyontrailgoats

Everyone has their own opinion, and if you don't mind splinting ears then go for it. But as said above, you can't change set rules and laws according to the abga.

You can argue with it all you want, but it won't change or affect anything, it'll only make you seem stubborn and unwilling to listen and learn......

And if folded ears are a DQ, then it wouldn't be morally right to sell them as breeding stock or show animals. Of course for meat and whatnot, it wouldn't make a difference.

The bottom line is to listen to and respect other people's opinions, and try to see their perspective, but at the same time do what's best for you and your situation.

We certainly don't need arguing here, I've seen enough of it on other forums and it makes for an unpleasant situation....... we're all friends here


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

If you don't want to argue, stop replying. I'm trying to understand the REASONING for this which no one wants to provide, they just quote rules which don't apply since my goat is A) not a Boer and B) not registered.


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## toth boer goats

taiweber said:


> So what about the fold at the bottom of ear. The bottom tip folds up. Is that bad???


The flip up at the bottom of the ear is fine and accepted by ABGA you can even show a goat with the flip or fix it, which I prefer to keep away bacteria and other issues so I do fix any that arise. 
It will leave a small scar but it is OK. It is better done shortly after birth, easier to rip. 
Here is a good link
http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f197/curled-up-ears-again-128920/


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## taiweber

toth boer goats said:


> The flip up at the bottom of the ear is fine and accepted by ABGA you can even show a goat with the flip or fix it, which I prefer to keep away bacteria and other issues so I do fix any that arise.
> It will leave a small scar but it is OK. It is better done shortly after birth, easier to rip.
> Here is a good link
> http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f197/curled-up-ears-again-128920/


I saw that it had been discussed right after I posted the question. I apologize! Thanks for the link I will check it out!


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## NubianFan

Well if your goat isn't a boer and isn't registered then I don't think it much matters. But the original poster's goat was a boer and registered I think. So the answer for both of you would be different


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## ksalvagno

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> If you don't want to argue, stop replying. I'm trying to understand the REASONING for this which no one wants to provide, they just quote rules which don't apply since my goat is A) not a Boer and B) not registered.


If you don't own registered Boer goats, then this doesn't apply to you. If you choose not to understand the reasoning for registered Boer Goats, then you need to move on from this thread. Your advice is not valid for registered Boer breeders.


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## happybleats

A flaw is a flaw...rules of ABGA is to improve the breed... a vertical Fold was deemed a flaw...even fixed, since its a genetic flaw..should be respecfully culled or sold unregistered to a breeder of meat goats....Its no different IMO then a breeder snipping a third teat from a dairy doe kid and sell her registered as unflawed...


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## Everfree

My buck (the original post) is neither Boer NOR registered, but it seems like it is just good husbandry to follow certain registry rules that are created to improve the health and soundness of stock. If any of his kids are born with the trait, I'll cull them as well. It's sad, but my goal is to breed up, not let the quality of my stock go to hell.


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## StaceyRosado

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> If you don't want to argue, stop replying. I'm trying to understand the REASONING for this which no one wants to provide, they just quote rules which don't apply since my goat is A) not a Boer and B) not registered.


I realize you dont want to see your goat as being flawed and its easy enough for you to "fix" the outward look.

That said the REASONING (in caps like you did) for culling such animals in the registered world is for breed standards. Same as for dairy animals with 3 teats. Just because the animal has 3 teats or a "tube ear" doesnt mean the animal itself will pass those things on but the possibility is there and its a genetic fault and cant be shown with it. So culling such animals from your breeding program of registered goats is important for keeping the integrity of the breed intact.

I hope this helps explain it for you. Obviously since your goat isnt registered or a full blood boer registration issues wouldnt apply to you BUT its never a bad idea to try to strive for greater goats and improvements even with unregistered does or bucks of any breed.


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## kccjer

Wild Hearts Ranch said:


> But there's no good reason for WHY it would be a disqualifying trait. From what I've read they won't disqualify a horizontal fold because it's A) easily fixed and B) not a health concern. Both are true in this case as well, so why should it be different? If my guy was to show they wouldn't be able to tell he'd had one and he wouldn't be disqualified. Usually a DQ trait is one that adversely affects the animal throughout its life.


The reasoning is that is NOT always easily fixed. The tubular shape stops the ear from doing its job....keeping gunk OUT of the ear canal. It will also NOT allow the ear canal to drain properly thus setting the animal up for severe ear problems. In other words it can become a huge health issue... whether the animal is registered or not.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Goat Forum mobile app


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## toth boer goats

Everfree said:


> My buck (the original post) is neither Boer NOR registered, but it seems like it is just good husbandry to follow certain registry rules that are created to improve the health and soundness of stock. If any of his kids are born with the trait, I'll cull them as well. It's sad, but my goal is to breed up, not let the quality of my stock go to hell.


You have the right idea there, of course, it is up to you on what you want to do, glad you are listening to our opinions, it will only better your herd.
You might want to go the registered route someday, you never know and it is a plus, to have good genetics with no flaws or as close as you can, to go even further, with goals you may have.


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## happybleats

I like your thinking Everfree...it doesn't matter if they are registered or not...improving the breed is our responsabiltiy no matter what we raise, be it meat goats, dairy goats cross breeds ..even dogs!! to do otherwise is irresponsable..


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Just an FYI - from what I can find tube ears/vertical fold are NOT a DQ for Nubians, only Boers. At least I don't see any mention of it on ADGA.


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## GroundGoats

Vertical fold are a functional defect, horizontal folds are cosmetic.
Boers are supposed to be able to breed, raise young, thrive and efficiently gain weight with minimal involvement, if I'm not mistaken.

Since it affects the way the ear drains and stay clean and free from infection, it must be fixed. That totally defeats the purpose of a self-reliant breed. That's why you should cull. 
A horizontal fold will not cause any impaired performance, while an ear infection causes pain and discomfort, which affects gains and profitability. The time to splint is money too, for it to work you'd probably have to separate kid and mom, unless he's a bottle baby, cuz other kids would probably tug off the splint.

It's not a defect in dairy animals cuz dairy animals are already intensively managed with close observation. It's not that hard to rip or splint an ear on a kid that you're on hand for the birth.

It's my impression that most producers or boers aren't even on hand at birth, so a tube ear could mean an infection that could kill the kid if the producer doesn't notice for a few days. Better not have the bad genes than the losses in that situation.

It's also about respect and responsibility. If you breed him, don't sell his offspring. Keep the does for yourself and only sell wethers in my opinion.


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## Buck Naked Boers

He is a cutie, why not sell him as a brush eater or pet?? Why cull him when someone could give him a good home who wanted him as a pet??

Tami


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## CritterCarnival

farmerjon said:


> He is a cutie, why not sell him as a brush eater or pet?? Why cull him when someone could give him a good home who wanted him as a pet??
> 
> Tami


Cull does not mean kill. To cull is just to remove the genetics from your herd. Wethering and making a pet, sending to freezer camp, or selling are all methods of culling.


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## chelsboers

I think the problem with fixing things like clipping a teat or a tube ear is that it's genetic and there for dishonest. If I were to buy a buck and get a bunch of kids with a folded ear I would know that the breeder had fixed it and had not disclosed it. If a kid has something that is against standards it shouldn't be fixed. It may or may not be a problem but then if it isn't a problem then why do you have to fix it? When a kid is sold that had a folded ear or teat issue are you going to tell the buyer what it had and that you fixed it? If it's meat it doesn't matter because nobody eats the ear and the kids will go to market where everyone can see the folded ear or whatever flaw and decide for themselves if they want to bring that into their herd.


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## toth boer goats

I agree to a certain extent. You aren't wrong in your thinking.

But, if a goat's ear can be fixed, it is good to try, so if that goat is someone's pet later, it won't have issues with the tube ear. 
If one fixes a flaw, it should be disclosed yes. But not all are honest I agree, it is sad. 

Teats though, should not be altered(cut off) at all, when they freshen, it will balloon and cause worse issues.


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## Wild Hearts Ranch

Yes, I fixed it to make sure it won't cause a health issue. I would not sell him intact without disclosing - for that matter, I don't intend to sell him intact at all. If I don't keep him for my herd he'll be wethered.


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