# How to Breed My First Doe



## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

After talking to my vet and other people in my area I have decided to breed my doe Bella to my buck Phantom to kid sometime in late October to November depending on when her heat cycles work out. So that puts my earliest date for breeding sometime in May. I know there are a couple different methods for doe/buck breeding and I want to know what your opinion is on what I should try.

First some background. My doe Bella is a kinder and they are not seasonal breeders. She is also a year old and this will be her first time. Before March she was cycling every eighteen days on the dot. It was very apparent she was in heat because she would hang out at the corner of the pasture where she could be closest to the bucks and wouldn't even leave them even at night. Now in March she stopped having these obvious heats and I've been having more trouble telling whether she is or not. For example today I think she is, her lady parts look a bit puffier than normal, she roughhousing with her buddy Prim, and she is paying some attention to the bucks. So is it normal for aseasonal breeders to slow down "off season"?

So the second part of my question is where should I set up Bella and Phantom for their first date? I've heard leash breeding can be done but pen breeding could be an option for me too. Phantom is a bit nervous on leash (by the way this will be his first time as well). We've been working on acting normal on leash, but I would be worried that he would be too nervous to do the deed. Maybe that's crazy though, he is a buck after all ohlala:. The other problem with leash breeding would be the fact that I am having trouble predicting when Bella is in heat, But maybe I could just keep trying everyday?

The other option I have is I have a pen that I could put them both in. Here it is:







The picture makes it look smaller than it is. It is my alternate buck pen that I am currently growing some more forage in. As you can see there is a lot of new grass coming up and I am worried about two things if I use this. One would be that will they be so interested in the new grass that they won't care about their date? Or is that just crazy again? Secondly, is the fact that they are both currently not on this fresh and lovely of grass and I have some concerns about bloat. _Thirdly,_ would be the fact that I couldn't even leave Bella in there with Phantom for say a month or so, because Prim, my only other doe, would probably flip out not being able to be with Bella all the time even though the pastures are adjacent.

Sorry for the book I just made you read. I guess I've thought about this quite a bit. So what do you think I should do? Leash? Pen? Something I haven't thought of?


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

It may be hard to get a seasonal breed to get it done in the off season. Nearly impossibly most of the time. I am not sure if the meds for inducing heat will work on off season or not. I do not see why they wouldn’t but someone more experienced with that can help you. With that there is a process you have to do though to get the doe to cycle. 

If you want an exact date try catching her in heat is the best option. Is the separate pen very near the regular doe pen? If it is put the buck in there and watch them both for signs she is in heat. Then put her with him. Watch them to see if it happens. You can leave her in there for a day or so and just keep an eye on them and her lady bits to see if she has gunk on there. 

The other option os puttin them both in that pen and leaving them together for a longer while. What would be two cycles would be what i would do in that situation. And thirtyish days after you separate draw blood and send it in for a preg test.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Just to clarify, she is not a seasonal breeder. I don't know if I'm just confused about whether seasonal or not seasonal means which thing, but I know that the kinder breed can be bred year round.


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## CountyLineAcres (Jan 22, 2014)

Boers aren’t seasonal breeders either but let me tell you... it can be a gamble getting them bred between March and June naturally - more so for first timers in our experience. 

You can try either method. There’s no wrong answer. You can put them in a pen together, and if they aren’t interested, you can try hand-breeding or vice versa. Best way to know is to try and find out!


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## Chelsey (Dec 7, 2018)

From what I understand, they do ‘slow down’ in the warmer months whether or not they’re seasonal. I have a Nigerian whom I believe is in heat, her timeline is correct from her kidding, but she isn’t being as vocal about it as last fall. It might help to KNOW if she is in her cycle by bringing her to the buck, kinda teasing her. Bucks seem to get the hang really quickly (my gosh, I have all bucklings so far, a four week old Nubian, three week old LaManchas, and a two week old Nigerian and they ALL already know how to breed), he may be a bit clumsy at first, but just let him try as long as she’s willing, and he’ll do fine. It sounds as if you have multiple bucks together, and the two does? So putting Bella in Phantoms pen won’t work because she’ll get pretty harassed in there. Is the empty pen some place where Phantom won’t be lonely? Where he can see and hear the other goats? You can have him stay in there to clear the grass (slowly so he doesn’t get sick on it) and he’ll have it all ready for Bella next cycle, (although another problem could be pen size, if she refuses him and you’re determined for this breeding, she could keep enough distance between them so that he’d never get to her) If not then to me it would sound like leash breeding is your best bet. If both are on a leash, I’d suggest having two people, one for each goat, to make sure nothing goes wrong. Even with my tiny Nigerians, my buck could drag me around if he was determined enough to get to a girl. Sorry for rambling. You seem to have a pretty unique predicament. Good luck figuring it out!


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

We watch our does for signs of heat and when she’s ready we put her in a separate area (either middle section of the barn or a separate pasture) with the buck. Our bucks aren’t shy and will usually service the doe several times in a matter of 10 minutes or so. They then go back to their respective sides. We repeat the same process about 12 hours later. We’ve been mostly successful using this method. This year we’re going to be trying for some fall babies this year so we’ll see if this method works as well for spring heats since they’re not nearly as obvious as the fall ones. Ours are year round breeders too.


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## Sfgwife (Feb 18, 2018)

MellonFriend said:


> Just to clarify, she is not a seasonal breeder. I don't know if I'm just confused about whether seasonal or not seasonal means which thing, but I know that the kinder breed can be bred year round.


I misread the NOT a seasonal breeder part. Sorry!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

If you hand breed, you would have to daily behavior test for a full cycle until they breed. The other option is for them to live together for a month.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree with CountryLineAcres. She may not follow the rules. My boers are usually not all year long breeders either unless I catch that first heat after weaning, which I don’t, then I have to wait for breeding season. Although some seem to cycle all year long, I have one of those, it’s quite annoying. And this year I don’t know what has them all screwed up but they have been cycling since their kids were 2 months old and still cycling. Goats just don’t like following rules!
I also agree that there is no wrong way how to get her bred. It really comes down to what works for you. There’s some that will let the doe and buck get together and only let him service her a few times and then pull the doe. My friend has her buck pens and when does come into heat she lets them in until out of heat. I put all the bucks and does together and I pull them out 3 months later. I can tell you why I do it that way. I don’t want to miss a heat. I don’t want to mess around putting does in and out with the buck. I just have too much on my plate to do that and if that’s the only way to breed mine I’m sure I would end up with a good amount of does not being bred. I go with 3 months because usually all my does come into heat at the same time. There’s the dominate does that are usually stuck to the bucks and will beat up the lower girls to keep them away so those usually don’t get covered. The next month they are covered and the third month to cover any just in case they didn’t. But you only have one doe so you probably wouldn’t have to do that long. 
So just think about how it works best for you. If you’re working or going to school whatever and are not home every day putting her in for a month would probably work best. If your there every day and you can spot when she is in heat then putting them together for a limited time would work too.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:nod::up:


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Thanks everyone for the help. I think I will try leash breeding and see how that goes. It's going to be really interesting to see how this goes. I'll be sure to tell you guys how it went. So if she isn't in heat when I try it first she won't let him breed her, and that's how I'll know?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Yes.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yep.


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## lhorning (Jun 26, 2017)

In my humble opinion... I like leash breeding much better. I like to know when my does are due. I hate mystery due dates. For me it is MUCH easier to take my doe on a leash and bring her to the buck. My girls are happy to go to the date, and usually equally happy to leave after the deed is done. The bucks however only like the coming part, and never like when the date is over. It's always fighting and dragging until they are back in their own pen. I even had a dramatic boy who would fall to the ground and act paralyzed. It finally dawned on me to put the doe on the leash and it has worked much better.


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## NDinKY (Aug 3, 2019)

One thing we do is run our wether with the does when we’re starting to track heat cycles. He lets us know pretty clearly when the girls are ready.


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## Moers kiko boars (Apr 23, 2018)

I have 3 bucks. I suggest using a mateing marker on your buck. Sometimes it takes a young buck a few times to get it together. You can get different colors for each day. You would know what day, or how many days she was bred. 
There are several different ways. Good luck in finding what is easy for you.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Thanks again everyone! I am going to shoot for due date sometime in late October at the earliest so any time after mid May if I see signs I'll set up a leash date with Phantom. I'll let you all know how it goes! So exciting!:clapping:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

(thumbup)


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

So tonight they had their first date. It didn't go very well....

I wasn't sure if Bella was in heat. The only signs I saw is she paid a little more attention to the bucks today than she usually does when I took her for a walk by the buck pen, and she's been sparing with Prim more than usual. She also was super affectionate toward my Dad this morning which in the past sometimes has coincided with her heat cycles. So I gave it a shot.

I took them both out of their pens on leash, and Bella immediately upon realizing she could get to him, hackled up and started rubbing on him and gently butting him. He tried to ignore her and started eating some weeds . I pulled him back over to her and he continued to ignore her as she tried to entice him to spar. No blubbering, no peeing on himself. Nothing.

Just to see what happened I brought him over to Prim who I had been more heavily suspecting of being in heat and she seemed like she could hurt him she was trying to butt him so much. He such a sweetie he didn't even fight back.

So finally after about fifteen minutes, since I was worried he was a little nervous being on leash, I took him back into his pen, let him off leash, and brought Bella in on lead. Same thing. She remained hackled and I paraded her past him and he did nothing. Eventually he started eating so I removed Bella and that was the end of that! 

I think Bella was probably not in heat after all. I have seen much more obvious signs than she was giving, but what the heck, nothing to loose so I gave it a shot.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Date #11, I think, yesterday. Still no dice. I think I am going to rethink my plan. I do not want to kid deep into January or February at all, so I need my bred date to not pass August 4. So I'm just thinking about chucking Phantom in with both my does and not worrying about having them both get bred. My family drinks a lot of milk so it would be nice to have them both milking as first fresheners anyway since I don't know how much I will get out of them their first times. Starting on the 23rd of June I will put him in and leave him in through two heat cycles and watch for signs that he's doing his job. He so far has showed no interest in Bella and the most she pays attention to him is to butt him when I offer them both leaves, so I think I would be able to still have an idea for a due date. And heck, if I notice he has bred one, and not the other, I'll just take him out and then I'll still have only one doe bred like my original plan. It's not that big a deal though, I was just originally planning to stager their kidding dates so I wouldn't have to deal with both of them since this is my first time, but I'd rather have them both bred than neither. 

So until the 23rd I'll just keep trying hand breeding and see how it goes. 

And if all of this fails I'll wait to breed them when it is actually breeding season, be it only one of them or both, to kid next year in March or April.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Not quite at standing heat.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Day 4 of Phantom being in with them. I have a question. Is there any chance that he could be too scared of the does to try anything? The reason I ask is today the does have been yelling _all _day making me suspicious, and sometimes he has been yelling back too. They don't really like him at all. He spends most of his time far in the pasture grazing away from them because they just try to beat him up. So is there any chance at all that he is just too freaked out by them to do his job?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I would try 1 on 1 instead.
But yet, he sounds afraid of them. 
Doe's can quickly make a buck lose confidence. 

You can test the does daily by having the buck on a rope and lead him up to the fence where the does are or visa versa. If they are interested in him, you will see flagging, peeing, ect. You can put those with the buck then.

If they are fighting him, the does are not in standing heat or already bred. 
But they may not be, especially if he is scared to pursue them.

Usually most doe's are forgiving when at standing heat. 
Some though are picky and want a different buck. We have to tie or hold those to get them bred.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I guess I have to change my approach. I think I am being a bit impatient and not really listening to what they are telling me. 

I think I am just going to remove him and wait for the does to show obvious signs. I remember last year when in season, it was darn obvious. I think I will then go back to using the small pen and one on one like you are suggesting. There was definitely less fighting when it was just Bella with him. 

It's just kind of frustrating I guess. I really want babies!


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree give them a break. I don’t think they are cycling right now. When they do start it is usually pretty hard to change a young bucks mind about being a pervert. Also even the most nasty does when in heat sure fall in love with a young buck fast. but there is also no point in making him live with them if they are not being nice to him and not coming into heat. You don’t want him to end up being bullied to the point that he is aggressive towards the does later on when he is MUCH larger. But they should start coming into heat soon. So just watch for those signs.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Thanks for the advice Jessica. I really appreciate it. It's just my impatience getting the best of me I guess. I'll give them a break and retry when I really think the does are ready.


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## Jessica84 (Oct 27, 2011)

It’s the second most exciting part of being a breeder! Totally understandable that you impatient. We don’t want to have to wait any longer then we already do for kids. But I hope they do start cycling and getting it figured out for you soon


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

I hear ya.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

So here is something that might help. For mine, if a really strong rutty new buck comes in, it sets off most of mine in about a week. Instead of bringing a new guy in, do you have a friend with a stinky boy that can rub a rag all over him, getting it nice and stinky, then put it in a jar?

It will be the smell of a new (and hopefully heavily rutty) buck and it will signal their hormones. Let them smell it good a couple of times a day every day until they come in. It usually takes about a week.

I just sent my ND buck to a friend to breed my doe that she has currently. Sent him LAST Sunday, she came into heat today. He was stinky as can be. Her others will probably follow suit shortly. It doesn't always work as last year only half came in when I brought home a lease buck. But worth a shot. That's what brings (one of the main factors) girls in heat is the buck coming into rut and smelling.

I'm hoping when I bring my buck back this next weekend, he'll be smelly and bring the rest of my girls in!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Jubillee said:


> So here is something that might help. For mine, if a really strong rutty new buck comes in, it sets off most of mine in about a week. Instead of bringing a new guy in, do you have a friend with a stinky boy that can rub a rag all over him, getting it nice and stinky, then put it in a jar?
> 
> It will be the smell of a new (and hopefully heavily rutty) buck and it will signal their hormones. Let them smell it good a couple of times a day every day until they come in. It usually takes about a week.
> 
> ...


Great advice, but sorry I actually don't know anyone else with goats... so that's not going to work for me, but thanks any way.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)




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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

How is it going with the breeding? Did anyone get lucky?


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:heehee::up:


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

MadHouse said:


> How is it going with the breeding? Did anyone get lucky?


:funnytech:

Nope! Nothing yet... sigh. I am sooo impatient. (headsmash) I saw my bucks pee on their faces yesterday so, that's a step in the right direction. My mom is still holding out hope that they'll get it done. I just don't want to breed them between August 4th and October 3rd since I don't want to kid in January or February. So clock's ticking for babies this year!:waiting:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

(doh)


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Man! Come on! I mean, there 2 boys and 2 girls, the right age... what’s the hod up????
:shrug:
Maybe look up aphrodisiacs??!?!?
:bookgoat: And get them going... ohlala:

so you can have BABIES this year?
:kid::kid2::kid3::goatrun::rungoat:


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Last year, I believe I started to see signs of the rut at the beginning of August-- just inside my no breeding date . So I am kind of starting to resign myself to the fact that it probably isn't going happen.  But there's still hope!


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Have you tried the other buck?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

No I haven't, but I really have seen absolutely no signs of the does being in heat. 

The reason I would not prefer my other buck (Cullen) is that he is considerably bigger than Phantom, and I was thinking it would be better since it's both of the does first times to have smaller babies. If it just doesn't work with Phantom for some reason, I will try using him, but for now I am going to stick with the plan.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Well I thought I should give you guys an update. Still nothing yet, but since I have been seeing my bucks acting more rutty lately I decided to do a test. I put Bella in with Phantom and Prim (my other doe) in with Cullen. I wasn't seeing any signs of heat with either of them, but both bucks blubbered at each doe and Phantom followed Bella around the pen sniffing and putting his lip up. She just butted him and stood up on her hind legs when he got close, and Prim did the same thing when Cullen tried to flirt with her. Cullen lost interest pretty quickly and just went about grazing. So it's good to see that there is nothing wrong with Phantom and he will definitely be ready when the does are.

My plan then, since I don't want kids in January/February is to wait now and breed both does for March and April of 2021. A bit disappointing, but at least we will get double the babies next year.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Bella is in heat today! But still no successful breeding...  I'm not sure what I should do. Phantom was so different than he had been before the rut. He was blubbering and peeing on himself and making general fool of himself, but Bella seemed freaked out by him. He would chase her and she would just run. I know she's in heat because she has a gooey tail and she kept peeing in front of him, but she seem overwhelmed be him. After he tired out a bit she thought about trying to sniff or rub on him, but then he launches into his blubber storm and she runs away. I tried leashing her but she just jumped around and I was afraid she was going to hurt me so I let her off leash. Phantom also didn't even try to mount her the whole time so I guess he's a bit inexperienced too. Is it possible she not quite in standing heat yet? Should I keep trying even though she just runs away from him? :shrug:


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Tie her up and try to keep her rear area, so he can mount her, or just tie her up, stand back and allow the buck to do his job.
Or a goat stand, which can be lowered, if it is large enough for him to have the room to safely mount her. 

If she is a first timer, some virgin does, don't know what his intentions are and are afraid of them.

The young doe is thinking, what in the world is this guy doing chasing and jumping at me.

When she finally gets it and is actually bred, she will say oh, that is what he wanted and should stand for him thereafter.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Okay, I was wondering if that would be the answer. Well okay, I'm going to have lunch and try again! I'll let you know how it goes.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

My May was a little afraid too, her first time, and ran away from the buck. I didn’t have her tied up, but left them in the pen together until she relaxed enough to let him mount her. The mounting can be very quick. So maybe keeping her on leash will work better for you, so you see what is happenin.
Good luck!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

My kinder usually only goes into heat in the Fall. She may got into heat year round but I doubt it is as strong since I’ve never noticed it. 
We recently just bred her to a ND buck, and we are waiting until her next heat cycle to see if it worked. When the buck was in rut, he had no care about food, all he wanted was to get into the pen with the other does.
We bred her by putting her in the pen with him, and it didn’t take more than 15 minutes, but she has been bred many times before so she is experienced. Don’t worry if your doe is scared. If this is her first time, that’s perfectly normal. 
She might not be in standing heat yet. When my kinder (Lucy) was showing obvious signs of heat, she still wouldn’t stand for him. She was in heat, but she knew she wasn’t ready. The next day, she was in standing heat and stood for him. Try your doe with him again and see if it works. Hopefully it does!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Success!... maybe. :lolgoat: Well I tied her to the fence, and she got in the "I'm tied up" mode like she gets in when hoof trimming and so she was calmed down immediately. It took Phantom a little to figure out what he was supposed to do, but eventually he did! Now I didn't see a definitive arching of her back to say it was good enough. There were a few times I thought he got her good enough, but no definitive back arch from her. We are going to do another round in a few hours as insurance. The trouble is Phantom is a little smaller than her and he seemed to have a _little_ trouble reaching. The place I tied her was also a little bit on a hill so if he was downhill it seemed worse so next time I might try a different spot. But yay it's going to work!:happygoat:


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Yay! Hopefully it works!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

:clever::goodjob:


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Hope it worked, good luck! In five month we get baby pics yay


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Second date didn't go quite as good as the first time. Phantom seemed a bit spent. He wasn't mounting her as much as the first time and when he did he'd kinda' just slide off because she wouldn't really stand still this time. How long would you say he has to stay on for it to be successful?


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

Yay! It doesn’t have to be long at all. And I never saw my does arch after the act, and it still worked.
Sooooo, hopefully you have a pregnant doe!
Check if she comes into heat in 3 weeks, maybe put her in with him if you’re in doubt then, otherwise you can do a blood test in 30 days.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Well that's good to hear. I think I will probably try yet again tomorrow just for insurance, but maybe it already happened. Hooray! So exciting!:clapping:


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Great news! I tried again today and Bella was a completely different goat. She didn't run away from him! She just stood and let him do his thing, and I'm sure I saw at least two good ones if not three and afterward she had some white discharge. It was amazing how different she was. _She _was rubbing on _him. _She even got jealous when Phantom started paying attention to my other doe Prim through the fence. I can't believe it, I'm gonna have baby goats! :coolmovesdance)


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Very good to hear.

We have to teach newbies sometimes.
She understands it now.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> Great news! I tried again today and Bella was a completely different goat. She didn't run away from him! She just stood and let him do his thing, and I'm sure I saw at least two good ones if not three and afterward she had some white discharge. It was amazing how different she was. _She _was rubbing on _him. _She even got jealous when Phantom started paying attention to my other doe Prim through the fence. I can't believe it, I'm gonna have baby goats! :coolmovesdance)


Yay, go Bella!! 
We want to see Kinder babies!!!!
:kid::kid2::kid3:
(cheers)


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Glad to hear! Sounds like she was in standing heat that time.  Can’t wait to see babies in 5 months!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Thought I'd let you guys know that my other doe Prim, went into heat today, so she had a date with Phantom too. She just loved him. It was really funny, I put her in and she just stood there for him, but he just wouldn't stop blubbering at her. Then _she_ tried to mount _him_!  It was like she was saying "hey, do it like this." :lolgoat: It was so funny. Soon after that he did remember how it was done, but she did just great. She seemed to like his attention even more than Bella did.


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> Thought I'd let you guys know that my other doe Prim, went into heat today, so she had a date with Phantom too. She just loved him. It was really funny, I put her in and she just stood there for him, but he just wouldn't stop blubbering at her. Then _she_ tried to mount _him_!  It was like she was saying "hey, do it like this." :lolgoat: It was so funny. Soon after that he did remember how it was done, but she did just great. She seemed to like his attention even more than Bella did.


That's so great!
Love it when things work out nicely!!!
Thanks for sharing!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

YAY (dance)


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

Glad it worked!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

:update: Day 24 since Prim was bred and day 29 since Bella was bred and there has been zero sings of being in heat from either of them. So here's hoping they both took! :stork::storkboy::storkgirl: (pray)


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## MadHouse (Oct 3, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> :update: Day 24 of since Prim was bred and day 29 since Bella was bred and there has been zero sings of being in heat from either of them. So here's hoping they both took! :stork::storkboy::storkgirl: (pray)


How exciting!


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> :update: Day 24 since Prim was bred and day 29 since Bella was bred and there has been zero sings of being in heat from either of them. So here's hoping they both took! :stork::storkboy::storkgirl: (pray)


That's great, congratulations! Hoping for some really cute GIRL babies!


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Yay


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## GoofyGoat (Sep 21, 2018)

Fingers crossed for you!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Thanks! Still zero signs of heat for either of them! :7up:


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## CaramelKittey (Oct 31, 2019)

MellonFriend said:


> Thanks! Still zero signs of heat for either of them! :7up:


:7up: :storkgirl::storkgirl:


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