# Dairy Goat Conformation + Stacking Tips!



## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Hey guys!

@littleheathens had a great idea for starting a thread about conformation and many of you strongly encouraged the idea so here it is!

The purpose of this thread is to talk (or ask) about anything that relates to stacking and how to analyze conformation!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Here's a few stacking tips I have!

First off, if possible, stack on concert, stones/gravel, or even short grass will do. Basically, you want to be able to see the goat's pasterns and most (if not all) of their hooves.

Secondly, make sure legs are lined up and square under their body as possible. Front legs under shoulders, back legs (hocks) in line with hips.

And thirdly, food is very helpful! I don't think I could stack without it - lol! Hold the food so that they hold their head up and out (not too far though).

Here's a picture of me stacking my buckling. See how his legs are pretty square under his body? I will say, I do wish I would of placed his front legs just a touch back, but hey, nothing is perfect! I also wish he wasn't looking up and that I would have stacked him on concert or stones, but again, nothing is perfect. Overall, I'm pretty happy with how this picture turned out, especially compared to my does' pictures I took earlier this year. Maybe I'll post my does' pictures soon so you all can see what I mean. 😅









Now, I will say, practice makes "perfect" and that is so true with stacking!! These are just a few tips that I (personally) think are helpful. I'm looking forward to hear if anyone else has any more stacking tips or techniques!


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## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

I’ll go get some pictures of my bucks really quick! Really excited about this thread. 👀


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## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

Stacking goats is way harder than it seems. 🥲 Now I stink like buck, and for terrible photos!

Anywho, these are the ones I got. I apologize in advance as they aren’t trimmed, it’s going to get pretty cold out!

First up is Casper! Obviously not a photo that shows off his features very well. I’m going to have to practice. 









Next is Noctis. Again, terrible photo! 😭 id be surprised if anyone got anything from these. 
Stacking tip: start when they’re young. These guys were completely confused by me and why I was trying to grab their legs and move them.

Anyways, from these photos I’m trying to study how their conformation looks. Casper looks... average? Not really something you should be looking for in a buck, but he still is an improvement from my doe. Noctis looks like his top line is pretty straight, but his legs wouldn’t stay under him so it’s hard to tell. His pasterns also look a little weak, but it could just be the way he’s standing. My completely clueless guesses!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm sorry but I just had to point this out 🤣: 









No, in all seriousness I don't think you did half bad! Especially with Casper. He does look kind of annoyed with you.


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## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> I'm sorry but I just had to point this out 🤣:
> View attachment 213552
> 
> 
> No, in all seriousness I don't think you did half bad! Especially with Casper. He does look kind of annoyed with you.


😂 okay, maybe practice was an understatement! I REALLY have to get this thing down! Both boys were just about ready to make a break for it I tell you. But thank you!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

I am probably too busy tomorrow to get good picture, but I would love to bounce around some conformation decisions I have to make regarding the two bucks I have. They are full brothers (they were a steal because of that) and I probably only want to keep one. Cullen is narrow, but has wonderfully long and deep body. Phantom has got much much better width, but boy is he _post-y. _Just for the point of discussion, which characteristics would be more important to you? Length and depth or width?


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

One tip with stacking is that I will put my hand under the brisket, or neck, lift up where their front feet are off the ground, let them dangle where they fall naturally then set back down. This _usually_ gets the front feet in the proper position then I set the back legs. I have a tendency to set them a touch forward even though from my view they look straight lol.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

I will be stalking this thread so I can learn.  Great tip @Jubillee. @MellonFriend, I know nothing but I am going to throw out a guess and see if it at all aligns with what the actual experts think (probably not though). I would assume it depends on how the bucks’ strengths/weakness match up to your does’ strength/weaknesses. If you have really wide does that need length, or long does that need width that would help with the decision. For me personally, I am so far valuing length and depth over width (though in a perfect world, I’d have both). But I know you highly value width. Could you keep them both long enough to see whose offspring is best? Or do you only want to breed one?


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

FizzyGoats said:


> I will be stalking this thread so I can learn.  Great tip @Jubillee. @MellonFriend, I know nothing but I am going to throw out a guess and see if it at all aligns with what the actual experts think (probably not though). I would assume it depends on how the bucks’ strengths/weakness match up to your does’ strength/weaknesses. If you have really wide does that need length, or long does that need width that would help with the decision. For me personally, I am so far valuing length and depth over width (though in a perfect world, I’d have both). But I know you highly value width. Could you keep them both long enough to see whose offspring is best? Or do you only want to breed one?


I highly value width because I feel like babies are born more easily from does with wide hips. And I would think that a wider goat would lend itself to more space for a bigger better conformed udder. I don't think I'll be able to keep the offspring of both as a test, but I am looking at whose kids look better. Last year Phantom got his turn and three out of four of his kids look great as far as conformation goes. So I guess we'll see what Cullen's kids look like. I almost feel like it doesn't matter a whole lot because they have the same pedigree behind them so the traits they are able to pass can't be all that different.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

And it sounds like they’re both good bucks too, so it’s more of just who is better for your specific herd goals. That makes sense on the width. 

I love this thread an am already learning so much. Thank you @Dandy Hill Farm for making it. I guess I’d better take the tip from @Kaitlyn and start to practice stacking. I have a feeling my goats are going to be a little confused and annoyed.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

FizzyGoats said:


> I will be stalking this thread so I can learn.  Great tip @Jubillee. @MellonFriend, I know nothing but I am going to throw out a guess and see if it at all aligns with what the actual experts think (probably not though). I would assume it depends on how the bucks’ strengths/weaknesses match up to your does’ strengths/weaknesses. If you have really wide does that need the length, or long does that need width that would help with the decision. For me personally, I am so far valuing length and depth over width (though in a perfect world, I’d have both). But I know you highly value width. Could you keep them both long enough to see whose offspring is best? Or do you only want to breed one?


I agree with Mellon about the width vs length issue.

I know her situation with bucks is currently different, in my herd, I try to focus on a couple of things only. Currently, that's width and udders. Next season I should have a shoulder buck. So first a buck that would bring width and breed to everyone mostly. If your does are already wide, you cement that width in those kids. But breeding to most girls, you can see how he mixes with a variety of lines. Then when you get width integrated, ad a buck that is preferably wide but long. Then breed to everyone again.

That's ideally how to start...however I have too many ideas of how I want to move and had too many opportunities with various bucks lol.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Kaitlyn said:


> Stacking goats is way harder than it seems. 🥲 Now I stink like buck, and for terrible photos!
> 
> Anywho, these are the ones I got. I apologize in advance as they aren’t trimmed, it’s going to get pretty cold out!
> 
> ...


I feel your pain @Kaitlyn! I thought it was going to be SO easy when I first tried stacking and boy was I WRONG!

How old are your boys? They still look young to me, meaning there is a good chance a few things (conformation-wise) can change (for good or bad) as they continue to grow and mature.

Since the pictures aren't they best (despite your great effort) and they are appear to be on the younger side, take my critique lightly.

Caper looks like a very sturdy, deep guy with great rear leg angulation! I also think he has decent body length and nice length to his rump. His pasterns are weak and I would like to see his front legs placed more under his shoulders and more brisket extension. His topline looks wavy, but it seems he is kind of hunched up in the picture. I have also found that their topline can sometimes level out with age. From the picture, both his front and back legs look pretty straight, so that would be another pro!

Noctis also has nice body length, depth, and rear leg angulation! His pasterns are pretty weak and his front legs appear to toe out. Like Casper, his front legs are placed too far forward and he lacks brisket. Noctis does have a nice, level topline, but his rump is short and steep.



Jubillee said:


> One tip with stacking is that I will put my hand under the brisket, or neck, lift up where their front feet are off the ground, let them dangle where they fall naturally then set back down. This _usually_ gets the front feet in the proper position then I set the back legs. I have a tendency to set them a touch forward even though from my view they look straight lol.


Ooo, I've never heard that one before, I'll have to try it next time I stack! 😁 I know! You think you have their legs all squared up, then when you look at the pictures later, all their legs are too far forward! 😅


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

FizzyGoats said:


> Thank you @Dandy Hill Farm for making it.


No problem!!


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## littleheathens (Apr 27, 2019)

AWESOME. This will be a helpful resource! So we can keep things organized and not filter through too much banter to find the real useful tips, I think we should try to keep this thread more focused on the "how to photograph" and "how to analyze conformation." Specific goat conformation/critiques will get better addressed in a separate threads.

Thanks @Dandy Hill Farm! I'm curious, are you a judge or is this just a super power you have and like to share? What's your background?


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## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I feel your pain @Kaitlyn! I thought it was going to be SO easy when I first tried stacking and boy was I WRONG!
> 
> How old are your boys? They still look young to me, meaning there is a good chance a few things (conformation-wise) can change (for good or bad) as they continue to grow and mature.
> 
> ...


Noctis is almost a year old at 10 months, and Casper is 6 months! Thanks so much for the critique, super helpful and appreciated! I’m surprised you got anything out of those photos to be honest, but I’m glad!


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Everyone interested in conformation should look at this document. It's amazingly helpful! https://cornerstonefarm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Easy-Dairy-Goat-Conformation.pdf


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## Kaitlyn (Jan 20, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> Everyone interested in conformation should look at this document. It's amazingly helpful! https://cornerstonefarm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Easy-Dairy-Goat-Conformation.pdf


That is SO useful, thank you!


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

I LOVE that link above, I've referred to it many times!

Also, when taking pics, you want to be down low, on their level. Where you are looking straight on...I'll see if I have some examples.

MDGA has a virtual show so we enter our minis in there. I've had to learn how to take proper pictures over time, it takes practie. I'll get nice ones, but with some goats...it's the one good pic out of like 100 LOL. I do have a few that stand there nice and don't fight much. After I post this, I'll show you my very first show entry...that way you can see the difference in practicing with your animals to get a good pic. It was horrible LOL. But it also will show you how a nice goat can look like crap because of their stance or fighting the handler and such.

Esp if you are getting confirmation critiques, you want the pics to show what a judge would see. So side profile, squat down to their level (or for kids, put up on a table) and take it straight on. Don't angle it as you can make the brisket look non-existent, or you can make them appear shorter bodied the other way. When taking from the back, the same thing, on their level, you want your hocks under the pins and not too far apart, where they naturally fall.

Here is a set of pics for our virtual show that they request. I'm posting as it gives you many angles to judge conformation. Side profile, the front lets you see width and how the shoulders conform to the body, if they toe out etc, the back shows the width in the escutcheon, the udder, if the legs are straight, width in the hips, then the top shows how a judge would look over the top of the animal. You can tell if the shoulders are loose or come into the body properly, spring of rib, width, if they have the proper shape. For does in milk, they also have a closeup of the foreudder. Always stack them on concrete, driveway, table, plywood....any solid surface, so you can see their feet and pasterns as well. Grass hides that. Also, don't tickle or punch don your goats. Where you find that spot in their back that makes them drop. Usually you can tell if it's been done as they look over angulated and unnaturally downhill. I do a couple quick pets down their top line to relax them and that's it.

So here is my junior doe I entered this year. You can see how the different angles gives someone an easier way to judge the various views of the goat. I just put them all into one image. In this image she was 9 months old. SHe's an F1 Mini-Nubain (Nubian dam and Nigerian sire)










So if you want me to critique my doe above here, (and if you want to add some, feel free) what I see in her is that she needs her shoulders set back further. Her rump could be more level. She toes out in the front. She does have strong legs, a nice topline. She is considered uphill as her withers are higher than her hips. She has a nice clean and long neck, I'd prob prefer a bit longer. Her dam has a gorgeous long neck and Mochas may come out more as she matures. She is pretty wide, good spring of ribs. She actually has the slightest bit of loose shoulders not seen here but in movement but it isn't terribly bad at all. Sometimes I question it as she is a tiny bit overweight and it can cause shoulders to look funky. She has tight elbows. Good angulation in the rear legs.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Ok, so here is my Sr doe. This first set was my first attempt at taking nice pics for the virtual show. This was in 2018. Granted she was only 2 years old there and not matured, but I remember her fighting me and she just all over didn't look her best.

The second set was this summer. She was 5 now and fully matured. She is pretty used to me taking pics now and typically stands still for the most part. But you can see how the second set makes her look so much better. Whereas the first set looks like terrible flaws that would deem her a "do not buy" goat LOL. But she didn't look like those first pics represented when she was out and about the pasture. And of course, since she is matured, udder has filled in and such too, she's gained depth, all of that. But those first pics did not represent her well. You can see the tension in her body as she didn't want to stand there.

Peach is also an F1 mini-Nubian who is a 50/50%. 



















And just to brag on her, those first pics she got 1st in one ring and 7th in the second ring. So judges can still see sometimes through bad setups. Not always but the main things.

In the second pic she got Best Doe in show and Best Udder of breed in one ring and second place in the other ring. That was exciting, I've never won anything. Her son got Reserve Buck. And he only got reserve to the Camembert's (the buck I leased this year) son! So not too bad!


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

littleheathens said:


> So we can keep things organized and not filter through too much banter to find the real useful tips, I think we should try to keep this thread more focused on the "how to photograph" and "how to analyze conformation." Specific goat conformation/critiques will get better addressed in a separate threads.


That is a great point!! What is everyones' thoughts on this?


littleheathens said:


> Thanks @Dandy Hill Farm! I'm curious, are you a judge or is this just a super power you have and like to share? What's your background?


Well, I am no judge (nor have I ever showed before). I guess you could say that conformation is something that I have really enjoyed learning about to help improve my herd, and in addition to that, I also like helping others by critiquing their goats and sharing what I know with them. My background with goats and how I got into conformation is a pretty long story, but here it is!

I have been raising Nigerian Dwarfs for almost four years now and when I first wanted/got started with goats, I knew absolutely nothing about conformation or quality. Heck, I didn't even plan on breeding or milking in the beginning! In the first few years of owning goats, we had only two Nigies (wether and doe pair) for pure propose of pets and just left it at that for awhile. Now, I will say I did train/teach my goats lots of tricks, carting, and even agility, which was lots of fun! Last spring, I decided that I wanted to breed my doe and maybe even start milking her. My friend, who also raises goats for pets and milk, had a Nigerian Dwarf buck that she was willing to let me rent out for stud service (I still had NO idea what conformation was at that time). Fast forward five months, Tilly (my doe) had twins! One buckling and an adorable little doeling that I of course, just had to keep! So I kept Tilly's doeling and sold my wether too make room. Then this past spring, I decided that I wanted to add a doe to my herd. At that time, my goal was to just breed for pets and milk as a bonus (still not knowing the point of bothering with conformation). Well, I soon found an adorable blue-eyed ND doeling that I really wanted to add to my herd, so I contacted her seller and was asking all the basic questions and also asked if she had a teat spur (or double teat) since I knew that was something I definitely did NOT want to bring in my herd. They said she didn't and even said they re-checked her, everything was looking good for me to purchase this doeling!! I was so excited and couldn't wait to bring her home! (Fast forward a month after we purchased the doeling) One day I was giving my three girls a little "check up" and trimming their hooves, when to my surprise, I noticed that Winny (doeling) DID in fact have a double teat!! I texted Winny's breeder pictures and told her about my discovery and how disappointed I was and this is what she replied "_Oh no I didn't see. I didn't check too close this year since we don't have that problem. You can still breed her since she is out of my best doe. And she's not even registered_." I was pretty frustrated that she didn't offer any kind of refund, but I also didn't want to argue with her, so I decided to sell Winny (along with a buddy) to family that doesn't want to breed or milk. Once Winny left, I knew that I still wanted to add on to my herd, but instead of buying a from "double teated, grade breeders", I wanted to buy from a trustworthy breeder with registered stock. I located a great breeder (Cloven Trail Farm) and she happened to be downsizing her herd at the moment and had a few great options for me. One of them was, a very well put together doe and her three week old triplets. The doe herself is from awesome lines, fantastic udder attachments, and was everything that her breeder was breeding for since 2008. The ONLY reason she was for sale is because DNA testing reveled her great grandsire was incorrectly listed, and also for that reason the doe and her triplets were being offered for a stellar price! I still didn't know much about conformation at the time, but after looking at her goats and they goats in the does' pedigree, I could tell they were/are NICE and there was just something special about them. I ended up purchasing the doe and her triplets, from there, I just really got into conformation by heavily researching and studying. Now the goals for my herd are completely different and I want to breed the best I can.

So really, this is only my first year actually knowing the purpose of conformation and why it really matters. Not wanting to pat my own back, but I do think I have come I long way in just a few months and that I have a lot of the basics down, but I truly do enjoy learning more from people that have more experience than I do (talking to you @Jubillee 😊). I believe conformation is one of those things where you will always be learning something new, no matter how long you've been doing it, and for that reason, I can't wait to keep on learning from everyone!

By the way @littleheathens, I like the fact that you thought I was (or could be) a judge, I'll take that as a complement!! Thanks!! 🥰


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> Everyone interested in conformation should look at this document. It's amazingly helpful! https://cornerstonefarm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Easy-Dairy-Goat-Conformation.pdf


Oh yes, I LOVE that link and have fond it SO helpful!!


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

Sorry, multiple posts but I have time at the moment. When you see people talk about moving the shoulders back. Here is a markup on my own doe. The red line is where her shoulders and legs SHOULD line up. So you can see her whole shoulder assembly is set forward. It should set under the highest point of withers.

That said, it's fairly prevalent in lots of breeds and animals I see. Also on the scorecard for shows, shoulders aren't worth as many points. It's an area I disagree with as functionally the shoulders hold up better in the proper place. Forward set shoulders can give the impression of a lack of brisket. Where as they also can give the impression of a doe having more length than she really does.

The rear red line shows you where you want your hocks to line up. Hocks should be a straight line under that. If the hocks extend further out from the rear, you typically have a short lengthed rump. You want the full body of your animal to be fairly equal in thirds.










So if Mocha's shoulders were in the proper place, you'd see she needs length of body and a bit of length in the rear. However, I absolutely love this doe so she isn't being culled on those issues. It's something I will be breeding up from. I hopefully have me a shoulder buck baking right this moment out there LOL. Jacinth my Nubian has fantastic placement while Camembert puts out good placement. His son puts fantastic shoulders on his kids too. Soooo theoretically those two should give me a buck that will improve shoulders.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

And this isn't the best pic as she wouldn't cooperate so her backend isn't in place and she's hunched, but you see proper shoulder placement...her shoulders/legs connect directly under the withers. Now she could probably have some work on her shoulders but the placement is what I'm focusing on here. This girl was only 6 months in this pic. She tends to have a steeper rump than the rest of my herd but it has leveled out a couple of times. She's in a funky growth stage currently so hoping the rump will level out a bit more.


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

Those pictures with the lines and descriptions are so helpful! Thank you.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> That is a great point!! What is everyones' thoughts on this?


I'm good with that if everyone else is. It would probably keep the thread a little more streamlined. You may want to go back to your first post and edit it so new comers know the "rules".


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## FizzyGoats (Apr 14, 2021)

Here is a silly, newbie question. Is there a best time of day for photos? Should you do it in the morning when the rumen isn’t full? In the afternoon when they’ve been able to fill up all day? Or does it not really matter for confirmation pics?


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## goathiker (Apr 14, 2011)

Every one of these have their front feet too far forward, including the last one.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

FizzyGoats said:


> Here is a silly, newbie question. Is there a best time of day for photos? Should you do it in the morning when the rumen isn’t full? In the afternoon when they’ve been able to fill up all day? Or does it not really matter for confirmation pics?


I try to do mine in the evening, soley for lighting. In the sun the lighting is harsh and can cause weird shadows.


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## Jubillee (Dec 22, 2017)

goathiker said:


> Every one of these have their front feet too far forward, including the last one.


We weren't really talking about the placement of feet in those more so how the shoulders need to be under the withers. I think somewhere in my posts I said I have a tendency to set the feet too far forward as from my view they seem straight then when I see the pic they weren't.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> I'm good with that if everyone else is. It would probably keep the thread a little more streamlined. You may want to go back to your first post and edit it so new comers know the "rules".


Great!! I just changed my first post. I think you should make a thread about your buck situation, I would participate, I am also curious to hear other peoples' thoughts and what you eventually decide to do. 😁

Thank you for great and very informative post @Jubillee!! 🥰


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## MellonFriend (Aug 8, 2017)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Great!! I just changed my first post. I think you should make a thread about your buck situation, I would participate, I am also curious to hear other peoples' thoughts and what you eventually decide to do. 😁
> 
> Thank you for great and very informative post @Jubillee!! 🥰


I'll do that! I'll see if I can get some conformation pictures of them. I'm not sure how well they will cooperate. 😬


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## CrazyDogLady (Aug 9, 2014)

One of the best tips I got for taking successful photos is using a selfie stick/tripod. I can set them up myself and click the photos. I bought mine from Amazon for about $25, it's been fantastic.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Aug 5, 2021)

Here's some good and basic conformation information A Guide to Goat Body Conformation - Weed 'em & Reap 😊


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## TripleShareNubians (Nov 5, 2021)

A


Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I feel your pain @Kaitlyn! I thought it was going to be SO easy when I first tried stacking and boy was I WRONG!
> 
> How old are your boys? They still look young to me, meaning there is a good chance a few things (conformation-wise) can change (for good or bad) as they continue to grow and mature.
> 
> ...


A breeder told me to help get the front legs in the right position to put your hand at the back of the withers towards the like the chine and put your thumb down on pointing straight down on one side and your finger straight down the other of the withers and the leg should line up with that.
She said an old full length mirror in the barn helps for practice. It's also a good idea to do a really good job of trimming and planing your feet before pictures or like linear appraisal if you want them to stand right.


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## TripleShareNubians (Nov 5, 2021)

Seeing a dairy goat ' by the numbers' - American Dairy Goat Association - ADGA


ADGA’s linear appraisal program evaluates individual type traits that affect structural and functional durability. This allows users of the program to take full advantage of the potential for genetic improvement through selective breeding. The program provides the framework for a uniform...




adga.org




This can be helpful to learn to see confirmation.
I've also been learning a ton from the lady at Virginia tech that does judging dairy cattle. While we're talking about goats the principles are the same. There are three udder, dairy strength, and feet and legs to get started plus a bunch of different ones where you can actually judge some and then hear how they would place them and they give reasons like a judge. I started with this one:
Dairy Judging 101: Evaluating dairyness - YouTube


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