# Understanding Calcium/phospherous



## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

So in my search to try and figure out why we switch our
goats to grass hay once they are a year old I found this
website. It is a horse site. But the ratios should be comparable.
And now I am even more confused. :?

http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/Calcium-Phosphorus.shtml

It looks to me like Alfalfa would be better than grass hay.
So what is up with that?
Thank you


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

Ã¤hm, no.

With everything it depends on the overall composition of the ration.

For the horse in that example that shattered his leg there was a real and man-made cause for that.

Colicking on alfalfa (rich in calcium) than moving to feeds that are much less rich in calcium:

oat hay - less calcium than grass hay
bran - high in phosphorus
grain - high in phosphorus

apparently without adding the much needed calcium from another source (like a mineral lick)

Horses are also fed much more/often phosphorus rich grain than goats and therefore can tolerate/need the calcium-rich alfalfa better/more.


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)




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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

Thank you.

Right now I am feeding grass hay. Where ever I can get a bale.

I live in an area that is really cold. In the teens and below. 
I would really like to give them something for these cold days.

Last year. I fed a cup or two of just COB for all the goats.
But it is a grain.
high in phosperous. So this year I was wondering about giving
them some A&M (alfalfa and molasses) instead of grain.
The Nigie,Togg are both fat. NO not in the belly! Matter a fact my
goats do not have really large bloated looking tummys. I am rather
proud of that. LOL Julio is thinner he is the one that I want to keep
weight on..
He is 1 1/2 years old.
Does anyone have any suggestions based on what I now feed.


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

I had to ask google about how much celcius that is.

OK, THAT is cold. We have about 2-3 weeks of that every winter and for the younger goats (under 1 year) this period has been the hardest of the winter.

Over 1 year, they seem to cope with these temperatures quite well.

What I do:

I give them as much grass hay as they want and split that into 3-4 feedings per day (one late in the evening/early in the night) to avoid spilling.

Warm water twice daily

Sunflower seeds, up to several handful per goat, depending on weight and condition. The thinner ones get more (and I start with feeding them up as soon as I bring them in for winter), the god-doers less.

Worming before winter. I had one goat that was very poorly for two winters that carried a tape worm which I didn't realize and therefore didn't treat. I treated her against tapeworm and she's doing great ever since. So worming against tapeworm is something I do now (we share pastures that are grazed by sheep, too) as a rule when the goats come in for winter.

If there's a goat that still has problems with the cold, I will put a coat on it during the night.

Another problem with grain is that is slows the rumen activity for several hours. But an active rumen is vital for keeping the goat warm. Feeding grain can therefore attribute to "cooling" your goat down when the temperatures are already critical.

Molasses is nice, fast energy but can upset the rumen bacteria, as well, and has been known to cause stones.

Alfalfa - calcium rich. My goats never liked alfalfa that much, I tried it in earlier years but they clearly told me, where I could shove it :? 

I keep thinking about other feeds that give energy. Maybe linseed cake (can't find how much calcium/phosphorus it contains right now, need to check)


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## fivemoremiles (Jan 19, 2010)

Grass Hay is a feed for Maintaining your goats at a given level. the protein content of grass hay is between 8 and 12% With my weathers and bucks grass hay is fed just to get them through the winter. I am not worried about getting the weathers to gain weight. 
Alfalfa is a feed that adds weight and has a protein content between 15 to 23%. I feed alfalfa hay to my young and pregnant goats.

the problems that arise from feeding alfalfa hay are the result of obese weather goats.
it is important to keep you goats in good condition. 
My father was a vet and always complained about people killing there stock with kindness.


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## ryorkies (May 4, 2010)

> My father was a vet and always complained about people killing there stock with kindness.


Yep! That would be me.


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## feederseaters (Nov 8, 2009)

So, what happens when the Calcium is too high? Just curious. My guys get very little phospherous except in their minerals, but I feed grass hay, alfalfa cubes as treats during training or spoiling and sometimes they get electrolytes that seem to have plenty of Calcium but no Phospherous. 

My boys seem to be healthy and I have yet to have an issue with stones or anything else really serious yet.....knock on wood. But I am just curious what the physiological effects are. What happens when the balance is heavy on the calcium side. Pros? Cons?


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## sanhestar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hello,

again, depends.

If calcium is only a little on the high side, it will be passed via the kidneys and urine (and there is where stones will form, if other factors are right).

If calcium is very much in overabundance, it will block the resorption of several other minerals:
phosphorus: it's the second major player in bone growth together with calcium
magnesium: muscle health (cramping, when lacking) and in dairy animals mastitis

Pat Coleby states, that an excess of calcium can weaken the cell structures and immune system and make the animal more succeptible to viral infection.

Let's go back to the first, calcium is not too high to be excreted via the kidneys.

If the wether is healthy, drinking enough, getting enough vitamin A and doesn't have a genetic predisposition to form stones he may be ok for several years.

But the calcium cristals are in the urine and can bond with other stone forming agents (like cells from the bladder wall) at any given moment when the circumstances change for the worse:

not drinking enough: concentrating the urine, less dilution of the sediment

bladder infection, sometimes undetected: will change the pH of the urine, faster forming of larger sediment and stones, sometimes fibrine will be found during an infection, too. Fibrine is very "sticky" and will cause smaller stones to stick together and form larger stones. The smaller stones may have passed, the larger ones won't.

Vitamine A deficiency: more cells from the bladder wall will be "shaved off" and swim in the urine, forming a base for mineralic molecules to bond with and start forming a stone.


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