# Kinder vs MiniNubian vs NDG



## bee_pipes (Dec 4, 2007)

The Nigerians first caught my interest because they are supposed to be able to breed year round, making it sound like 2 or 3 does staggered would supply milk year round. But in another post Stacy and kelebek mentioned Kinders, and eliya mentioned MiniNubian. Now, if I have this straight, MiniNubians are a cross between Nubian and and Nigerian, while a Kinder is a cross between a Pygmy and Nubian.

I know this is a loaded question, like asking what's the best car to get, but was wondering if you folks had opinions on relative merits.

eliya said "Most of them are also A LOT easier to milk than the most Nigerians. Their udders are a little higher off the ground and their teats tend to be larger. Also the MiniNubians weren't as bad of escape artists as the Nigerians." Those are definite plusses - feed consumption is about the same as a Nigerian?

I went back and reread the article on Kinders http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/sanderson95.html and they had similar points. Though I am assuming the meat comes at a price - if the Kinders have a higher dressing percentage, that must come from feed.

The more I read, the more it sounds like the smaller teats of the Nigerian would make milking more of a chore.

Ah! And I guess, like asking what's the best car, the first question is what do you need that car to do? So far as goats:
1) Smaller more manageable size than standard goats - lowers space requirements for housing, etc.
2) Lowest feed consumption possible, compared to standards.
3) Easily contained - relative to other breeds.
4) Milk supply adequate for two adults without excessive surplus - one milk drinker, occasional company, other dairy products such as cheese, yogurt, cream, butter, etc. Steady supply would mean staggered year-round breeding.
5) Adequate meat - same as milk.
6) Ease of milking.

I understand that if there were a "perfect goat" everybody would have that. I also understand that there are trade-offs.
I appreciate any opinions or corrections of bad information and missconceptions on my part.

Regards,
Pat


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## kelebek (Oct 5, 2007)

I personally have not started milking yet, as I am waiting for a birth anytime, however, I do understand what others are saying about Nigerians being hard to milk with their udders closer to the ground. But, there are many ND that are taller and would not hinder this so much.

The kinders, if I was going to use for milk and meat, this is what I would use. Only because they are a little larger then the ND, but they are thick. My kinder, who I sold, is 7 months and she is almost as tall as my ND buck, yet she is thick. She does not eat anymore then my ND and pygmy's due.

The rest, I am sorry, I do not know much about.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide on.


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

I don't milk either as I don't want to have to be here everyday to do it. I have two Boer does to have meat. Have only two does mean that you have to hope everything works out ok- that they get pregnant when they are supposed to, you have just enough kids, etc. They are both incredibly easy to handle- they just are laid back and only having a couple, they are pets.
Also their kids are sent to freezer camp at 4 1/2-6 months being large enough at that point. You'd have to ask how long you need to grow out small goats to achieve enough meat to make it worth while.
I don't think that it is neccessarily true that larger goats are harder to handle or need to provided more food. If you have enough browse available, the larger goat can utilize more of the browse because they can reach higher. 
For inexpensive, I think you need to consider their hardiness too. Also whether your fencing is up the "little" goat challange. My girls seem to have no real desire to scoot under fences.


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## Sara (Oct 5, 2007)

I'd go with Mini-Nubians if you want milk and meat. Plus they look cute with those big floppy ears.


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## Muddy Creek Farm (Oct 5, 2007)

I love my ND's althoug I think a Mini Nubian might fit you better. My ND's are very easy to milk, but I don't think you would get much meat off them. Also the more grain you feed the more milk you'll get (to a point). If you hardly feed any grain, you won't get as much milk as if you were feeding a larger amount.


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## enjoytheride (Oct 5, 2007)

Another thing with something like a Nubian is that you could breed to a meat goat like a boer,kiko or fainter for meat offspring- that would get you larger babies earlier and the mom would be good for milk.


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

Nigerians are cute, just not as much meat to go around since they are dairy goats.

The Nubian is one of the larger dairy goats and tends to be the diary goat that gets crossed with your meat breeds (if they chose to cross). So it lends me to believe they have a higher meat yield then some of your other dairy goats. Thus when mixed with a nigerian or a pgymy you will get a higher procentage of meat and milk yield.

As to the milking of nigerians - it isn't the udder to floor distance that is the hard part but the tiny teats!!! I have a first freshioner that I want to milk so that is going to be interesting this year. I hope Aspen (second freshioning) will be better then last year.


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## fritzie (Oct 6, 2007)

i have full size alpines that are not hard to handle. but for what you are looking for i would say mini nubian also. on the full size goats some of them you can milk for 2 years with out drying them off or rebreeding them. i do agree that if you want milk for all you said then you need to feed a good grain & enough for them to make milk. you can eat any of the breeds but if you are looking for a doe to kid & give you meat then i would say cross the nubian doe with a pygmy buck. that way you have a doe you can milk & kids you can eat.


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## debpnigerians (Oct 20, 2007)

Not all Nigerians have tiny teats...some are quite easy to milk. I will admit though that there is a standard joke we tell on ourselves about having to pad a pair of tweezers...


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## fritzie (Oct 6, 2007)

i have a few friends that have nigi's & they milk them with no trouble. i think once you get use to it it becomes easier. i just don't have good hands(carple tunnel & arthritis) so i even use a machine on my girls.


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## mystic's_mom (Oct 5, 2007)

For milk and meat I think you would definitely want to go with a dual purpose goat like the Kinder. 

As far as food intake, it all depends on the generation of Kinder you have, but they still won't eat as much as the standard size breeds; the 'younger' the generation (1st and 2nd) tend to be a bit on a larger scale...Not fully Nubian size but they can be pretty close; that's some, not all. When you get the 'older' generations (3rd and beyond) you have a goat that will be probably around 24-26 inches at the shoulder...more the 'in between size'... Kinders are supposedly fairly easy keepers too, making their weight gain rapid with quality pasture, hay, and grain supplementation (if desired). Grain is not 'necessary' but can be beneficial, especially when you want to get ready to dress the goat out; a couple of weeks of high quality feed can finish a goat very well, without you having to feed grain 'all the time'. As long as they have mineral access, and free access to water, and other good food source they don't 'need' grain; grain is always a supplementation.


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## eliya (Nov 20, 2007)

I don't know why I didn't see this post until now....

I have not had any experience with the Kinders but can give you my experience with Nigerians and MiniNubians. I raised Nigerians for about 6 years and have been breeding MiniNubians for about 8.

1) Smaller more manageable size than standard goats - lowers space requirements for housing, etc. - *True of all three breeds you mentioned.*

2) Lowest feed consumption possible, compared to standards. * The MiniNubians tend to give about 2/3rd's the amount of milk of a full size Nubian on about half the feed.*

3) Easily contained - relative to other breeds.* I don't know that that is true about the Nigerians...- They seem to be able to get out of ANYTHING!!! I had a Nigerian buck that would jump a 6 foot fence to get with the girls and most of the does could squeeze under anything but stock panels. They don't put as much weight on the fence when they stand, but they are clever escape artists. The standard size Nubians tend to be pretty 'dumb'. For example, if one of the nigi's got the gate open, all the goats would walk through it but the Nubian would stand by the fence and scream "everyone else is out! How do I get out?!'" It is pretty funny. The MiniNubians seem to be a nice mix between the two breeds - not too smart like the nigis but smarter than the Nubians.*

4) Milk supply adequate for two adults without excessive surplus - one milk drinker, occasional company, other dairy products such as cheese, yogurt, cream, butter, etc. Steady supply would mean staggered year-round breeding. *I don't know if the Kinders breed year round or not. Many MiniNubians do and most Nigerians do.*

5) Adequate meat - same as milk. *While Kinders would be your best choice for meat, the MiniNubians can do pretty well with meat as well. The Kinders will give you more meat than a MiniNubian but the MiniNubians will give more milk. I have had several MiniNubian wethers/bucks butchered and they had wonderful meat. I don't remember the live weight to meat on the table ratio as it was quite a few years ago that we butchered. MiniNubians tend to grow really fast (most of my kids keep up in size with the standard Nubians until about 3-4 months old and then seem to just stop)*

6) Ease of milking. *The MiniNubians I have milked have certainly been easier to milk than the Nigerians. Of course you get a few first timers who have small teats, but nothing like some of the Nigerians! Also like I said before, higher udders, mean more space for a bucket and your hands! Especially when you get some of those does that like to squat when you start milking!  *

Oh, mistic's mom, lower generations don't necessarily mean taller goats - I have a 1st generation MiniNubian who is 75% Nubian who is only 25 inches tall. The thing is, is that in the lower generations the genetics haven't sorted themselves all out so you are not sure how tall they will be, but in the higher gens it is more consistent. I hope that makes sense!


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## mystic's_mom (Oct 5, 2007)

I know that the 1st generations may not be overly large, but the younger the generation the more 'random' the differences between appearances, height, etc, than with older generations.


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## eliya (Nov 20, 2007)

Right. 

P.S. I love your signature!


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## Duchesse (Oct 31, 2007)

What of the maximum weight of these three?

Who's the smallest in weight and at the withers? 

I'm partial to the little guys so I like to factor that in to my decision. I also want good meat and milk to meet my small homestead needs. The kinder and the mini nubian and the Nigi are all "Minis" all are considered dual purpose. The Kinder and the Mini Nubina both have larger teats and are said to be easier to milk. The meat of the Kinder is touted as the "better" of the two. The Nigi comes in third for milk and meat production and has a reputation for small teats making them more difficult to milk and yet they are the smallest. Decisions, Decisons, Why is it so hard to decide. :shrug:


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## eliya (Nov 20, 2007)

Well, what is most important to you? Tiny size? More meat? More milk and easier to milk? 

We raised Nigerians for several years and totally preferred the MiniNubians. I actually prefer the size of the MiniNubians over the Nigerians. The Nigerians were just too short! I had to completely bend over to lead them anywhere and the kids were almost impossible to contain  The MiniNubians are just a little taller and I can reach their collars without getting a backache. 

My does range from 70 to 95 lbs at maturity. I have one doe who weighs 115 lbs. She is 26 inches tall, and is NOT fat at all. But she is quite the producer! She has a huge barrel that lets her get tons of food to make milk with.

I would suggest visiting a few farms that have the breeds you are considering and see what you like best. You would be very welcome to visit here if you are close enough!


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

eliya makes a great point - visit places.

You can hear all you want from people on what they think is the best but you need to see for yourself what you like and dislike


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## Duchesse (Oct 31, 2007)

Mini Nubians and Kinders have *the ears and the teats and the milk *that I love. The Mini Nubians and the Nigerians can have* the moon spots *that I love. The Kinder has *the best meat *and the Nigerian is the* smallest*. I wonder who has the *sweetest and the most milk?* :roll:

I think I'll take one of each. 

Did someone say goats were addictive? :ROFL:


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## StaceyRosado (Oct 5, 2007)

nigerians are not actually always the smallest and you can never guarentee moon spots unless you buy on with them.


Kinders can have moon spots as well


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## bee_pipes (Dec 4, 2007)

StaceyRoop said:


> eliya makes a great point - visit places.
> You can hear all you want from people on what they think is the best but you need to see for yourself what you like and dislike


Granted, but the discussion has been most helpful in narrowing down the places to visit! :greengrin:

Regards,
Pat


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