# For Liz....feeding question



## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

Liz,

my two Nigerians are about a year old and I am giving a small handful of noble goat (6 oz tea cup- 1/2 (3 oz) to each am and pm) and they get about a big handful each am and pm of alfalfa.They love the noble goat and eat the alfalfa but leave most of the alfalfa behind. They browse the rest of the day.


I'm not sure what to do in winter, but is my feeding them correct so far?
Thank..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

I can tell you what I do for my Nigerians. I feed them 1 measuring cup of feed per day when they are not in milk. When they are in milk (which means either feeding kids or I'm milking them), they get 2 measuring cups twice a day. 

Now all of this depends on body condition. If they are thin, then the amount is upped. If they are fat, then the amount is reduced.

I also have free choice kelp, loose goat mineral and alfalfa/grass mixed hay.


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## toth boer goats (Jul 20, 2008)

Looks Like Liz hasn't seen this post yet. I am sure she will soon, she is a busy person.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

toth boer goats said:


> Looks Like Liz hasn't seen this post yet. I am sure she will soon, she is a busy person.


you're sweet thank you!


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> I can tell you what I do for my Nigerians. I feed them 1 measuring cup of feed per day when they are not in milk. When they are in milk (which means either feeding kids or I'm milking them), they get 2 measuring cups twice a day.
> 
> Now all of this depends on body condition. If they are thin, then the amount is upped. If they are fat, then the amount is reduced.
> 
> I also have free choice kelp, loose goat mineral and alfalfa/grass mixed hay.


Okay, that sounds about what I'm doing with the feed, which I'm guessing is ok even tho they browse? what is loose goat mineral??? The hay is way to expensive here so they are just getting alfalfa... Mine is a male (castrated) and female no babies  I have their pics on here and don't know what is fat and underweight. Why would I give them baking soda?? as I've been told and how do they get it and why how much etc etc.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

You don't need to put out free choice baking soda. Just have it around in case they ever bloat.

TSC has a really good loose goat mineral just called "Goat Mineral" made by Manna Pro. Goats need this to give them the extra minerals that aren't in their food (browse. hay & feed included).

Goats need some type of fiber and hay/browse are needed on a daily basis. I'm not sure of your weather but in the winter, they will need some type of hay if it is snowy and they can't browse. When you say you are feeding alfalfa, do you mean alfalfa hay?

Are you thinking the kelp is baking soda? Kelp meal is actually seaweed kelp harvested from the sea. You don't have to offer both kelp and mineral. I do since my girls are "working" girls and need everything they can get.

What you may want to do is give the wether some ammonium chloride once or twice a week to make sure he doesn't get UC. I don't remember the dosage but I'm sure it is on here somewhere.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Sorry about the delay..., been taking advantage of the good weather to replace porch roofs and a couple double shifts at work, all done now!

Karen covered a lot... Thank you :hug:

I am one that does not feed grain to pets over a year old unless there is a need, I am fortunate to have access to good quality alfalfa mixed hay and everyone here gets it morning and night, with browse thru the day.
I keep loose minerals out freechoice to all in pipe feeders that are mounted inside their sheds to avoid weather damage. Karen suggested the Manna Pro Goat mineral from TSC... I second that, for 2 goats it will last you awhile and it already has ammonium chloride in it for your wether.
Kids here get 1 cup of Blue Seal Caprine Challenger 2x a day each until they are 7 months, then it's one cup once a day as long as they are in good growth, I also give a meal of crushed/flaked hay cubes to all once a day... this could be an option for you if hay is scarce, I get the timothy/alfalfa cubes from TSC...Made by Standlee, I flake them into smaller pieces so they are easier for my goats to manage. For 10 goats, I fill a 2 gallon bucket 3/4 and separate into different feed pans so that everyone gets. When browse is gone, I up the hay amounts and fill feeders 2x a day, morning and late afternoon/early evening.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> You don't need to put out free choice baking soda. Just have it around in case they ever bloat.
> 
> TSC has a really good loose goat mineral just called "Goat Mineral" made by Manna Pro. Goats need this to give them the extra minerals that aren't in their food (browse. hay & feed included).
> 
> ...


Yes Alfalfa hay not like horse hay. They get ammonimum cloride in the noble goat as well as selenium, vit a, copper etc so I guess the noble goat addresses the minerals but was warned not to give too much,, I just give a little in am and pm. I have three barrels of dried weeds from the 1/2 acre for winter...it's like dried fruit, vegs etc, it does retain the nutrients and roughage? I'm in the desert, southern New Mexico, like Arizona Texas climate dry heat


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

liz said:


> Sorry about the delay..., been taking advantage of the good weather to replace porch roofs and a couple double shifts at work, all done now!
> 
> Karen covered a lot... Thank you :hug:
> 
> ...


loose minerals isn't that the same thing as noble goat that has all the minerals? I was warned not to over feed which is easy to do? Thanks Kim


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Well... When I'm asked about feeding, I try to give what I do but also need to stress that how/what I feed will be totally different for someone in a different area/climate. 
Ladyharley, it sounds more like you are in a desert...when you say browse, is this greenstuff that your goats get or is it more the brushy,dry woody plant material?

All goats will need dry fiber to help keep greens in balance, as far as "getting the minerals" they need from the type of grain they get, that is not true in almost all cases of goat management. Loose minerals are a must for keeping goats healthy and getting what they need for condition...it took quite a few years of having my goats before I learned that they were copper and zinc deficient, because of the high iron content in my well water as well as the plants they browsed in pasture...iron can and does interfere with proper copper absortion.
The amount of the Noble goat your pair is getting is sufficient to keep them happy but not enough to keep the minerals in their systems at a healthy level.... feeding loose minerals solves that as opposed to feeding too much grain which only makes fat goats and can produce other problems within the gut. With the minerals, they take what they need. Minerals are just that... minerals, there are no dangers to feeding freechoice because there are no grains in them that will cause bloat etc, they take what they need and move on.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

i just found out that the feed store is no longer carrying noble goat...it was a good price for a 50 lb bag,.. $14.00 now they have that manno stuff 8lb for $11.98 hay too expensive, have to figure out what to do. another forum is saying DO NOT FEED alfalfa...it's too rich you need hay..............arrggghhhh... yes I'm in the desert but there is a lot of green and brush and dry woody plant material.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The Noble goat is a feed right? That 8 lb bag of Manna Pro goat mineral is NOT a feed. It is a mineral which your goats need.

If your goats are adults and you want to give them some type of feed product, you could just feed them alfalfa pellets instead of a goat feed as long as you have the free choice minerals out for them. The alfalfa pellets will also help keep the calcium to phosphorus ratio the 2:1 that it should be. 

You goats will always need some type of long fiber. The woody plants would not qualify for that.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> The Noble goat is a feed right? That 8 lb bag of Manna Pro goat mineral is NOT a feed. It is a mineral which your goats need.
> 
> If your goats are adults and you want to give them some type of feed product, you could just feed them alfalfa pellets instead of a goat feed as long as you have the free choice minerals out for them. The alfalfa pellets will also help keep the calcium to phosphorus ratio the 2:1 that it should be.
> 
> You goats will always need some type of long fiber. The woody plants would not qualify for that.


they are about a year old. see that is what I don't get..another forum is saying they don't need alfalfa it's too rich and don't need it if they aren't breeding etc. woody plants don't qualify for fiber? Noble goat is a feed and very little grain...but has the ammonium chloride for HIM... I got the purina goat minerals...for the minerals they might not be getting, so far they aren't eating it which I was told if they don't eat it, then they are balanced? They get plenty of browse.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Most people don't understand that calcium isn't what causes UC (urinary calculi). It is the imbalance of calcium to phosphorus. For goats the balance should be at least (a little more is better) 2:1 calcium to phosphorus. The entire diet of the goat needs to be considered when figuring this out.

So realistically, your wether probably would do well on getting alfalfa pellets because his browse is probably higher in phosphorus than calcium.

Noble feed would be considered a grain but the grains are crushed up into the pellets. So there is grain in the pellets. In order for your wether to get enough ammonium chloride from Noble to help him, you must feed him the amount that is suggested on the bag.

As far as the minerals, they may be balanced or they may just not like it. You could put a little over their feed to help them get used to it.

Digestibility of fiber is much lower in course forage. So the woody stuff would be very course and they would not digest that as well and then won't get the protein out of it. But if you have other browse than that is great.

Buying ammonium chloride and adding it to feed once or twice a week or just giving it to him orally in a water drench would help if you want to stop buying a goat feed and just feed the alfalfa pellets.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> Most people don't understand that calcium isn't what causes UC (urinary calculi). It is the imbalance of calcium to phosphorus. For goats the balance should be at least (a little more is better) 2:1 calcium to phosphorus. The entire diet of the goat needs to be considered when figuring this out.
> 
> So realistically, your wether probably would do well on getting alfalfa pellets because his browse is probably higher in phosphorus than calcium.
> 
> ...


Thank you...I asked at the feed store if they had ammonium chloride as a supplement and they said no.


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

Jeffers as well as Hoeggers sell Ammonium Chloride... if you have the Manna Pro mineral and still want to feed a grain, adding the AC to the ration won't interfere with what the mineral already contains.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> Most people don't understand that calcium isn't what causes UC (urinary calculi). It is the imbalance of calcium to phosphorus. For goats the balance should be at least (a little more is better) 2:1 calcium to phosphorus. The entire diet of the goat needs to be considered when figuring this out.
> 
> So realistically, your wether probably would do well on getting alfalfa pellets because his browse is probably higher in phosphorus than calcium.
> 
> ...


Also doesn't noble goat have only 16% grain which is low?


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

liz said:


> Jeffers as well as Hoeggers sell Ammonium Chloride... if you have the Manna Pro mineral and still want to feed a grain, adding the AC to the ration won't interfere with what the mineral already contains.


I'm going to try and get them to eat the purina goat mineral...as mentioned I don't fee that much grain (noble goat even tho it's only 16%) and am mixing alfalfa and bermuda hay... and they have all that browse, which I'm thinking based on what was said, all that browse (phosphorus) increase some of the alfalfa until winter when browse is less.???


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

The 16% protein is what most people feed their goats. Protein is a whole different ball game than the calcium/phosphorus.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> The 16% protein is what most people feed their goats. Protein is a whole different ball game than the calcium/phosphorus.


Oh I thought the 16% was the grain content...


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## liz (Oct 5, 2007)

> Oh I thought the 16% was the grain content...


The "percent" is the protein content of the entire ingredient list within the feed. I feed an 18% Goat feed that is a textured sweet feed with pellets made up of different grains such as oats, soybean, cornmeal and yeast with added vitamins and minerals as well as steamed crimped oats and corn.

Some goats do very well with a lower protein percentage as long as the browse and hay quality are good and they have a loose mineral available.
I currently have 4 goats here that have not gotten any daily grain/feed at all in 3 years...a bit as a treat on occassion but all have browse, hay and hay cubes, loose minerals and all are very well padded


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

liz said:


> The "percent" is the protein content of the entire ingredient list within the feed. I feed an 18% Goat feed that is a textured sweet feed with pellets made up of different grains such as oats, soybean, cornmeal and yeast with added vitamins and minerals as well as steamed crimped oats and corn.
> 
> Some goats do very well with a lower protein percentage as long as the browse and hay quality are good and they have a loose mineral available.
> I currently have 4 goats here that have not gotten any daily grain/feed at all in 3 years...a bit as a treat on occassion but all have browse, hay and hay cubes, loose minerals and all are very well padded


grain/feed would be the noble goat..? hay quality = alfalfa and bermuda?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

Hay quality is the quality of the hay. Doesn't matter what type. Good hay quality would be hay with no mold, soft grass, few stems, smells like tea. If you have it analyzed, it should come back with the protein content, etc that you are looking for.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> Hay quality is the quality of the hay. Doesn't matter what type. Good hay quality would be hay with no mold, soft grass, few stems, smells like tea. If you have it analyzed, it should come back with the protein content, etc that you are looking for.


Okay hay= protein. Do they regulate their own protein "hay intake" if it is always available?

so what constitutes phosphorus (other than "feed" being phosphorus) browse?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

There is some protein in pretty much all the food they intake. It is just a matter of how much. You would have to have everything analyzed to find out exactly how much calcium and phosphorus are in your plants and food. You can also look up info on the plant and see what is generally in them. But generally you will find more phosphorus in grass hays or grass and many types of plants. Legumes such as alfalfa, clover and birdsfoot trefoil have more calcium. There is more to it than that but that is just the basics.


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## ladyharley (Sep 7, 2012)

ksalvagno said:


> There is some protein in pretty much all the food they intake. It is just a matter of how much. You would have to have everything analyzed to find out exactly how much calcium and phosphorus are in your plants and food. You can also look up info on the plant and see what is generally in them. But generally you will find more phosphorus in grass hays or grass and many types of plants. Legumes such as alfalfa, clover and birdsfoot trefoil have more calcium. There is more to it than that but that is just the basics.


That make a lot of sense and much clearer. Thank you Karen


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## ksalvagno (Oct 6, 2009)

No problem! :thumb:


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