# looking for blood line



## SilverStarRanch

I'm currently searching for a boer blood line for meat goats not show goats. I've noticed that boer bloodlines have Lost there way, seems everyone went to breeding for show any suggestions


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## nancy d

Well, our main goal is meat. Only if I think it is showable does he/she get papers.
Showing is fun & a mini vacation for me even though we don't usually do real well.
Come take a look see someday!


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## Tenacross

SilverStarRanch said:


> I'm currently searching for a boer blood line for meat goats not show goats. I've noticed that boer bloodlines have Lost there way, seems everyone went to breeding for show any suggestions


I would suggest you reconsider your current opinion. ABGA Boer show goats are actually evaluated by real livestock judges who are certified through a rigorous training and evaluation. If you have ever met one of these judges, you would know they are not flakey wanna bees, but farmers and ranchers who have years of experience with the Boer breed. Inherently, the goats they select at a show they are judging would be the goats they would most like to put into their own herd if they could. Their selection criteria is up on the ABGA website for all to read. You will notice the standards are for a breed of goats bred for meat. Simply put, I'm saying the best Boer bloodlines for "meat" are the same as those for "show". The difference IMO is that those condemning the show goats have never had their goats subjectively evaluated by anyone. You are taking their word for it.


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## toth boer goats

Show goats are meat goats, just fancier, when conditioned.  Most are easy keepers and have meat on their bones for more meat per lb.
You feed them differently of course, if you want to raise them for meat, you want less fat on them, but carcass weight, will be better, if fed properly.

You don't have to show them to own them. 

Bloodlines really don't make the goat, it is the way they are bred and matched up. 
if you want that and want more meat.

Breeding a narrow chested, narrow hipped, no big bone structured boer, to another similar goat, you won't have the good weight yield, when ready to butcher, as you would one that is big framed, wider and bigger boned. The most important one in your herd is your buck, he has a lot of influence. If you want to start there and then work up to bigger framed Does, it is a start. It is worth paying a bit more for the buck to better your herd, with what you already have. Get what you can afford of course.


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## SilverStarRanch

Tenacross said:


> I would suggest you reconsider your current opinion. ABGA Boer show goats are actually evaluated by real livestock judges who are certified through a rigorous training and evaluation. If you have ever met one of these judges, you would know they are not flakey wanna bees, but farmers and ranchers who have years of experience with the Boer breed. Inherently, the goats they select at a show they are judging would be the goats they would most like to put into their own herd if they could. Their selection criteria is up on the ABGA website for all to read. You will notice the standards are for a breed of goats bred for meat. Simply put, I'm saying the best Boer bloodlines for "meat" are the same as those for "show". The difference IMO is that those condemning the show goats have never had their goats subjectively evaluated by anyone. You are taking their word for


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## Tenacross

toth boer goats said:


> Show goats are meat goats, just fancier, when conditioned.  Most are easy keepers and have meat on their bones for more meat per lb.
> You feed them differently of course, if you want to raise them for meat, you want less fat on them, but carcass weight, will be better, if fed properly.
> You don't have to show them to own them. Bloodlines really don't make the goat, it is the way they are bred and matched up.
> if you want that and want more meat..


I agree you don't have to show your goats for them to be good goats. That's silly. But what I see happen is people accusing the goats that show breeders have as somehow *not* being good goats. OR good "meat" goats. That's even sillier and is border line lying. For the most part, ABGA judges have no idea what the "bloodline" of a goat in the ring is. They are judging the goat.

Are the goats in the ring arguably too fat? Yes, but that doesn't make them a bad goat either. You shouldn't confuse "management" with "genetics". Like Pam said, Boer goats should be easy keepers, period.

Just as "ennoblements" on a goat's papers don't make an individual goat a good goat, they sure as heck don't make them a *bad* goat. ABGA registration and the ennoblement designation are tools to evaluate bloodlines. ABGA shows are tools to have your goats evaluated. People who routinely use these tools often have very good goats.


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## Tenacross

I read your reply that is now edited, Silver Star. 
I'm sorry you feel that way, but you asked for good bloodlines for boer meat goats. If you are working off the assumption that bloodlines that are successful in the show ring are not good bloodlines for meat goats, you have wiped out the vast majority of good bloodlines period. For meat. 

If you are wanting to find a breeder that has reasonably priced, hardy, good mothering, type Boer does for sale, then you should say so.

Hopefully Pam Toth won't mind me using her as an example... Pam has awesome goats. All you have to do is look at the pictures of them. I don't think Pam shows that much, but her goats are registered. If you look at the pedigrees of Pam's goats, you will see many of the very same foundation goats that are found in pedigrees of the successful show goats. Good is good. Bad is bad. It has nothing to do with the papers. Show Boers are meat goats.


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## Dani-1995

I agree with everything Tenacross has said. 

Boers are a meat goat regardless of whether they are shown or not. They're are different styles of boers just like they're are different style and types within any breed of animal from any species. 

If you want just meat animals and do not worry about show or registry I would suggest looking at individuals rather than lines. Either way you look at you want the same traits in a show goat and a commercial doe. Judge them as individuals in this order- structural correctness, volume and capacity (spring to ribs, bone, hip size ect), muscle and then femininity and masculinity (or style and balance over all)


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## toth boer goats

I don't know what Silver Star said before, that was edited and don't need to know, but, I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings at all. 
This is just truth and what good, meat goats represent. As in cattle, you want a good weight and carcass size, when butchered, to achieve more good cuts and meat itself, in lbs.

That OK Tenacross, to use me and my goaties as an example, thank you for the compliments. 
I have shown in the past, however, I am just not wanting to subject my goats to diseases, that may be out there. I try really hard to keep a clean herd. 

Registration papers don't make the goat, I have seen some with super genetics, but don't look good at all. 
When you buy, look at the goat overall and how it can perfect the meat quantity for your herd. Cause you cannot judge by genetics alone. 
All my goats are registered FB, I have the option to sell them as registered or not. The ones that don't make the cut are sold for meat, but have the meat on their bones.


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## SilverStarRanch

Tenacross said:


> I read your reply that is now edited, Silver Star.
> I'm sorry you feel that way, but you asked for good bloodlines for boer meat goats. If you are working off the assumption that bloodlines that are successful in the show ring are not good bloodlines for meat goats, you have wiped out the vast majority of good bloodlines period. For meat.
> 
> If you are wanting to find a breeder that has reasonably priced, hardy, good mothering, type Boer does for sale, then you should say so.
> 
> Hopefully Pam Toth won't mind me using her as an example... Pam has awesome goats. All you have to do is look at the pictures of them. I don't think Pam shows that much, but her goats are registered. If you look at the pedigrees of Pam's goats, you will see many of the very same foundation goats that are found in pedigrees of the successful show goats. Good is good. Bad is bad. It has nothing to do with the papers. Show Boers are meat goats.


So basically ur saying a grand champion goat is the best goat I can buy for meat?


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## Dani-1995

Managment has a lot to do with it. For youur lines, yes a winning or high placing goat might be the best. But really look at each animal and then choose. Most of the time people don't sell their best goats. Also depends on what your doing with them... breeding or just buying to slaughter


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## goathiker

I am not a meat breeder at this time. I do know exactly how I would start out though, partly through research and partly through reading these meat goat threads. 

First I would work out with Tenacross to buy the very best buckling I could afford. I've seen his goats, I've seen the bloodlines he AI's with and I know that he runs disease free animals. I would raise that buck as well as I could and try to get him enobled. Not because that makes better meat but, because it raises the demand and prices on his kids. 
I would also go to one of two of the other WA breeders and get 2 registered does. These also would be shown. Their kids would hopefully be sold for FFA projects. 
The rest of my does would come from a gentleman I know here in OR that raises a wonderful herd of disease free Boer/Kikos. These would be my commercial does. 

They are not saying that a GC is the best goat for meat...They are saying a GC quality is the best goat to breed for meat and perhaps make a little more selling for youth shows.


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## Tenacross

SilverStarRanch said:


> So basically ur saying a grand champion goat is the best goat I can buy for meat?


I'm saying if you are looking at Boer bloodlines, you shouldn't consider successful show goats as inferior. But to your new question, if you were looking for a buck to buy, yes, a buck that was grand champion at competitive ABGA show would likely be a good buck to buy to sire meat goats. He would have been evaluated by an expert against many other nice bucks. If I was buying him, I would also want to know what his and his mother's teat structure is. If price of the grand champion was way more money than you wanted to spend, then you might consider a son of his. If I was only raising commercial goats, I would be more likely to try and buy (hypothetical) the buck kid that got 3rd - 7th in the GC's class of 20 bucks. Actually, an ABGA show is a great place to buy a reasonably priced, yet reasonably awesome, buck. Come see me. I'll sell you one.


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## SilverStarRanch

This is my bucks ABGA paper work I'm trying to do better then this


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## nancy d

I had to crank my neck. Can you post this better? edit; Never mind.
I see some awesome names on there.
2dOX TnP is no longer alive. There might be semen around somewhere.
What do you want to improve on?


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## Tenacross

Better than the pedigree, or better than the buck? There's not much wrong with the paper. The dam side is especially good (on paper).


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## toth boer goats

Good lines.

For selling meat, I feel differently about having to have an ennobled or show goat, in order to sell the meat.
Get one with substance, he does not have to have to be perfect in every aspect to breed for meat. Meat sells per lb or on the hoof. It isn't worth any more than what going price is, for that week in ones area. 
We are talking about goats bred for meat here, not wanting an exquisite specimen, he can have a few flaws, but not major.
Look at the goat, you will know, whether or not he has substance and that is what you want. Also shop for something in your price range and what will improve your herd from that moment to give more meat per say.
Remember, pedigree and the goat may not match, in other words, he or she may have tremendously good bloodlines but, the goat itself, isn't much to look at or have good meat ability.
Hope I am on the right track in what you are seeking and helped some.


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## SilverStarRanch

Yea it helps a lot it's a hard subject to explain what looking for so sorry for that. In my community there all old dairy farmer's thanks everybody


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## toth boer goats

You are so very welcome. Good luck


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## surveyman

Shows don't take into account mothering ability, parasite resistance, or the ability to thrive on forage. These are very important qualities in raising meat goats, and they have nothing to do with winning shows.


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## Tenacross

surveyman said:


> Shows don't take into account mothering ability, parasite resistance, or the ability to thrive on forage. These are very important qualities in raising meat goats, and they have nothing to do with winning shows.


True. But that does not mean a show quality goat is not a good mother, good forager, or parasite resistant. So you can not assume that they are any more than any goat who is not show quality.


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## surveyman

Tenacross said:


> True. But that does not mean a show quality goat is not a good mother, good forager, or parasite resistant. So you can not assume that they are any more than any goat who is not show quality.


I would think that show goats would be less likely to have those other qualities than non show goats. Look, if you're raising goats to show and sell for thousands of dollars, you certainly aren't going to send any does to the slaughterhouse because they aren't good mothers or parasite resistant. However, if you're simply raising breeding stock, if the does don't have those qualities, they very well could be on the next truck. The profit margin isn't great enough to "nanny" such goats.


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## Dani-1995

I would think show goats are more strictly culled. We can't have wormy hard to feed goats at shows. They won't win when they are thin and rough coated. 

All my show boers have always been parasite resistant and need deworming maybe once a year. Management has more to do with parasite resistance than genetics.


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## Tenacross

Dani-1995 said:


> I would think show goats are more strictly culled. We can't have wormy hard to feed goats at shows. They won't win when they are thin and rough coated. All my show boers have always been parasite resistant and need deworming maybe once a year. Management has more to do with parasite resistance than genetics.


Well said, Dani. 
I would add, my goats spend most of the day wandering around foraging. My grass is usually wet and often not over six inches tall. You'd think they'd be dying right and left from worms, but they aren't. 
The other thing is, some people confuse goats that are overly sensitive to parasites with parasites that are resistant to anthelmintics. It's not the goat that develops resistance, it's the parasite and it's management that can effect this, not the goat's DNA. Which is what Dani said. Ha. oops.


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## Tenacross

surveyman said:


> Look, if you're raising goats to show and sell for thousands of dollars, you certainly aren't going to send any does to the slaughterhouse because they aren't good mothers or parasite resistant. .


I hear what you are saying and it's not *totally* wrong, but those thousand dollar goats are a result of years of selective breeding that involves rigorous culling. Years of hard work. I don't have many thousand dollar goats, but I can tell you I do not keep does that won't raise babies. I don't keep skinny goats either. I haven't been doing it as long as many, but I can tell you that the goats I started out with were basically other breeders' outcasts. I've weeded some of those out, both accidentally and on purpose and their daughters are better than they are. That's the work part. I think that's the same whatever the purpose you have for your goats is. I'm sure commercial breeders don't often sell their best ones either. Good goats are good goats.


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## toth boer goats

Yep, try to breed up, keep the best of the best of each kid crop and sell off the not so good ones, sell a few not so good adult Does and with some of that money, purchase a nice Doe or two ect to better your herd. Or, as I mentioned, just work up the line with the kids out of bucks you purchased, if you rather not purchase new outside Does. 
Even if you have to do it slowly and a few at a time each year, may take a while but, you will improve each year, as those kids are Yearlings and ready to better your herd. The buck is the really important part of a herd. So each time you have to change bloodlines, try to up grade further each go around if possible.
Look at your does, where they are lacking and get a buck, that will put the correction in the offspring like more meat volume ect. 
I know some breeders cannot go out and buy an expensive buck or Does, so you get the best that you can afford at that time. 
Work your way up, with your buck and offspring from them. Then, you will be moving forward and closer to a goal.


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